The Talk Show

323: ‘Skeptical Not Cynical’, With Matthew Panzarino


00:00:00   Let me ask you this.

00:00:01   Here's a good place to start.

00:00:01   Have you ordered an iPhone 13 for yourself yet?

00:00:05   - I have not.

00:00:07   And the only reason I haven't ordered one for myself

00:00:10   is because I, and this is the normal conundrum,

00:00:14   unless I'm on it, iPhone review season comes right

00:00:17   in the middle of like my busy season here at TechCrunch.

00:00:20   We do a big event.

00:00:22   We have a big conference.

00:00:25   Normally I'm traveling.

00:00:26   This year, obviously we weren't traveling.

00:00:27   We did most of it virtual,

00:00:29   but it's just a big undertaking, a big effort.

00:00:32   And then usually, and you know,

00:00:34   Apple people are normally very apologetic about this,

00:00:37   but it is what it is.

00:00:38   The iPhone release comes smack on top of it.

00:00:41   I've been doing this for eight years and like the,

00:00:43   I think all but the, or nine years,

00:00:45   all but the like two or three years ago,

00:00:48   something that the iPhone release basically landed

00:00:51   on Disrupt Week for me.

00:00:52   So it drives me insane.

00:00:54   You know, I've got to like do my review.

00:00:55   I always, you know, I want to do a good job,

00:00:57   and I want to be thorough, but at the same time,

00:00:59   I've got a lot of event stuff and planning going on.

00:01:01   It's just a very hectic time for me.

00:01:03   And so normally what happens is I get through

00:01:05   with my review, I go right into Disrupt.

00:01:07   I've got, you know, whatever crises I'm managing

00:01:09   and interviews and you know, our whole show.

00:01:12   And then by the end of that, I'm exhausted

00:01:14   and I just chill for a couple of weeks.

00:01:16   And then I'm like, oh, I got to order an iPhone.

00:01:19   And so like what normally happens is I end up about three

00:01:24   to four weeks behind everybody,

00:01:27   which means that this year, because it was virtual,

00:01:30   we finished the show and then the next day,

00:01:32   I don't have to travel and I can't order a phone

00:01:35   because my upgrades not up yet.

00:01:37   So I got to wait until that's because it's like four weeks.

00:01:40   - Right, you're stuck on the schedule

00:01:41   from when you ordered before.

00:01:42   - Yeah, exactly.

00:01:44   So yeah, that's why I haven't ordered yet,

00:01:46   but I probably will order and I'm going to get a 13 Pro,

00:01:49   just a regular.

00:01:50   - That's what I ordered, but mine's not here yet

00:01:53   because I've lost my mojo for ordering as orders open.

00:01:58   I think it was 6 a.m. Eastern time.

00:02:02   I forget, maybe it was 9 a.m. Eastern

00:02:04   and 6 a.m. Pacific this year.

00:02:06   It's varied over the years.

00:02:08   I remember for a while, there was a series,

00:02:10   they coincided with when Andy Baio and friends

00:02:15   were running the XOXO Conference in Portland,

00:02:19   which for a few years coincided,

00:02:23   it was like a Friday, Saturday, Sunday conference

00:02:25   in Portland, Oregon,

00:02:26   the three days after a Tuesday Apple event in California.

00:02:31   And it was a great conference.

00:02:34   But I was already in California for that,

00:02:38   so it made no sense to go to fly to California

00:02:41   from Philadelphia, fly home and then fly back to Portland.

00:02:45   So I would just stay on the West Coast

00:02:47   and my wife would usually come,

00:02:49   I think she went every year to XOXO

00:02:50   and she would just fly solo separately

00:02:52   and we'd meet up in Portland, which seemed very exotic.

00:02:56   We just don't live a life where,

00:02:58   usually it's either me traveling solo

00:03:00   or us traveling together and we just never meet

00:03:03   in an exotic locale like beautiful Portland, Oregon.

00:03:07   I actually, and I say that, but I actually,

00:03:09   I like Portland a lot.

00:03:10   It's a very fun city.

00:03:11   But then in those years,

00:03:13   all of the years that I remember from XOXO,

00:03:16   it was a 3 a.m. Eastern, midnight Pacific opening window.

00:03:20   And so midnight wasn't bad on the Pacific

00:03:23   and it would be like, but we'd be like at a bar

00:03:25   or something like that.

00:03:26   There was a rooftop lounge the one time on top of a hotel.

00:03:30   And it's all these people, everybody at once at like 11.58,

00:03:34   everybody in the entire establishment takes out their phone

00:03:38   and is like hitting reload on the Apple store

00:03:40   trying to buy iPhones at the same time.

00:03:42   Even though I wasn't with the iPhone media crowd,

00:03:47   it's now XOXO, but it's like just as much, if not more so.

00:03:51   - There's a big overlap there, yeah.

00:03:53   - But now I'm off it, I've gotten lazy.

00:03:56   And I did order on day one, but by the time I ordered,

00:03:59   I was already, it was already four to six weeks backlogged

00:04:02   or something like that.

00:04:03   But anyway, I got the same thing.

00:04:04   The regular size iPhone 13 Pro after one year

00:04:10   with the non-Pro iPhone 12, which I loved

00:04:14   in every single regard.

00:04:15   - You're many or?

00:04:17   - No, I did not buy it.

00:04:17   - No, no, no, you got the Pro, okay, gotcha.

00:04:19   - No, no, so for the last year,

00:04:21   I had the regular iPhone 12, not Pro.

00:04:25   - Right, right.

00:04:26   And yeah, I remember we talked about this

00:04:27   'cause of the telephoto, right?

00:04:28   You weren't convinced that the telephoto was enough for you.

00:04:30   - Well, it wasn't, yeah, yeah.

00:04:33   And especially knowing when I ordered it a year ago,

00:04:36   like it was, well, no,

00:04:37   I guess it was more like October last year, right?

00:04:39   Because they were late.

00:04:40   But still, even at that time, mid pandemic,

00:04:45   knowing that we were going,

00:04:46   it was like as certain as anything in the pandemic

00:04:49   has ever been and with all the uncertainty

00:04:51   that winter was going to be bad.

00:04:54   That, well, if ever there's going to be a year

00:04:57   where I'm going to take fewer photos than ever

00:04:59   and that the photos I take are not going to be shot

00:05:03   at a distance, it's probably gonna be the next year.

00:05:05   And I was kind of right.

00:05:06   I mean, we wound up taking a few vacations this summer

00:05:08   and there were definitely some times

00:05:10   where I wished I had the telephoto lens,

00:05:11   but anyway, I got the pro.

00:05:14   - Yeah, yeah.

00:05:16   Yeah, I was just curious actually

00:05:18   when we were talking about it.

00:05:19   So I checked my upgrade and I'm actually not eligible

00:05:22   for an upgrade until like January, I think.

00:05:25   So it must've been a quite a delay last year

00:05:27   for me upgrading.

00:05:28   I must've been running my own phone

00:05:30   for quite a while after that.

00:05:31   It's gonna be a while for me, but I'm not stressed.

00:05:33   I mean, you can, the iPhone upgrade program,

00:05:36   I believe you can pay early.

00:05:38   You know, like pay to upgrade early.

00:05:39   You basically pay the balance on your contract.

00:05:41   And it's usually like 100, 200 bucks

00:05:43   if you're a month or two out, but I'm not that stressed.

00:05:46   I'll just keep running my 12 and you know,

00:05:50   it's not that big of a deal, but I need that telephoto.

00:05:53   So I'm gonna be going.

00:05:54   - Well, and we've talked about this before,

00:05:56   I think with you on the show,

00:05:57   and I know you've written about it extensively

00:05:59   in your reviews on TechCrunch.

00:06:00   You love the telephoto lens and I know from your photos,

00:06:03   you're just, you're really good at it.

00:06:05   You just, your photographer's eye lends itself

00:06:10   to those 50 to 80 ish millimeter equivalent focal distances.

00:06:15   I'm more of a fixed wide angle lens person.

00:06:20   Like I've owned a lot of standalone fixed lens cameras

00:06:24   over the years.

00:06:25   My Fuji X100S I think is a 35 millimeter equivalent or so,

00:06:30   either that or 28.

00:06:33   And my beloved Ricoh GRD from like 2007 or six or so,

00:06:38   which is probably the best camera I ever owned,

00:06:41   pound for pound, photo for photo,

00:06:43   was a 28 millimeter fixed lens, no zoom at all.

00:06:48   That's my natural eye, but I love having,

00:06:52   I still love having the extra distance.

00:06:55   Anyway, we can talk about the camera.

00:06:56   - Yeah, it's the framing and cropping thing.

00:06:59   - Yeah, the other thing I do,

00:07:00   before I take the first break,

00:07:01   I did one thing I wanted to mention in you saying,

00:07:04   you know, that you're on the upgrade program.

00:07:07   I wrote last week before the phone's got

00:07:10   in the customer's hands, probably a day too late.

00:07:12   I wish I'd thought about it the day before,

00:07:14   but to recommend to people the device to device transfer,

00:07:19   where you boot up your new phone and it's like,

00:07:23   what do you wanna do?

00:07:24   And Apple calls it QuickStart.

00:07:25   You wanna just do the QuickStart,

00:07:26   bring one of your own devices nearby.

00:07:29   And if you want to, you can just bring it nearby

00:07:31   and it takes the like wifi password from it.

00:07:35   You just log in with your iTunes account,

00:07:37   which even just getting the wifi password

00:07:40   is a huge help, right?

00:07:43   Because typing in an even moderately complex wifi password

00:07:48   is way harder than just pointing your one camera

00:07:51   at the blue, I don't know what you call that thing,

00:07:54   the blue cloud.

00:07:55   - Yeah, it's a fancy QR code, but yes,

00:07:58   they're point cloud, right?

00:07:59   - But it amuses me to no end,

00:08:02   but also doesn't surprise me at all

00:08:05   that Apple goes so far out of its way

00:08:07   to avoid actual QR codes and makes these beautiful things.

00:08:11   They do the same thing when you associate an Apple watch

00:08:14   with an iPhone.

00:08:15   But then if you just continue at that point,

00:08:16   they give you the option.

00:08:17   If you'd like to, we could just upgrade

00:08:20   from your iCloud backup,

00:08:22   or we could just transfer device to device.

00:08:24   And I wrote a piece about the weird nature

00:08:26   of being an Apple device reviewer,

00:08:30   especially now in the era of like four new iPhones a year,

00:08:34   sometimes five, if there's an iPhone SE model,

00:08:37   plus iPads, it's like I set,

00:08:40   and then I buy an iPhone for myself.

00:08:43   And I ended up setting up a lot of iOS devices a year

00:08:48   for somebody who's not running

00:08:50   like a consumer report style lab.

00:08:52   - Sure, right, right.

00:08:54   Or not a developer where you're used to having

00:08:57   a bed of test devices.

00:08:59   - I years ago gave up on the,

00:09:01   it used to be that you could do it from iCloud

00:09:04   or do it from like an iTunes.

00:09:07   Now iTunes is gone and you do it in a finder,

00:09:09   but I'll call it an iTunes backup on your Mac,

00:09:13   which if you encrypt it and put a password on your backup,

00:09:18   which you can't forget, it's encrypted,

00:09:19   and it's like good encryption.

00:09:21   - And which you can only do

00:09:22   if you back it up to your Mac, obviously.

00:09:24   Or to your computer.

00:09:25   - The computer backup without encryption

00:09:29   doesn't have any of your passwords

00:09:30   for the obvious reason that it's not encrypted.

00:09:33   If you do encrypt it,

00:09:34   they store all sorts of more sensitive stuff,

00:09:36   like your passwords and your login state,

00:09:37   and you get more, and that's why I,

00:09:41   because iCloud backups are not end-to-end encrypted yet,

00:09:46   maybe, who knows, that's a whole separate discussion

00:09:48   we don't have time for,

00:09:49   but since the current state of iCloud backup

00:09:51   is that they're not end-to-end encrypted,

00:09:53   they don't include anything that's sensitive, like passwords.

00:09:58   So if you do the device backup to your Mac,

00:10:00   you get more stuff.

00:10:02   But it's a huge rigmarole to me

00:10:05   compared to the device device.

00:10:07   It might be faster, but now you've got like

00:10:10   tens of gigabytes of space on your Mac

00:10:13   taken up by these backups.

00:10:14   - Oh yeah, they eat up so quick,

00:10:16   especially with photos and all that.

00:10:17   - Yeah, they eat up quick,

00:10:19   and you have to remember to do it,

00:10:21   and if you haven't backed up first,

00:10:23   first you have to take a plug

00:10:24   and plug it in your old iPhone and do a fresh backup

00:10:27   so it's a fresh backup,

00:10:28   then take it and plug it in the other thing

00:10:29   and do a restore.

00:10:30   And I'm sure lots of people listening still do it.

00:10:32   There's a lot of people who just,

00:10:34   once they have a system that works,

00:10:35   they don't wanna take a chance,

00:10:36   even if they know it's just,

00:10:38   well, I could waste three hours trying it

00:10:42   the way Gruber says I should,

00:10:43   but I don't even feel like doing that,

00:10:45   I'll just do it the way I know.

00:10:46   - And for some people,

00:10:47   the encrypted backup really matters, right?

00:10:49   Like for security consciousness and protection,

00:10:52   that kind of thing.

00:10:53   - Right, but you don't have to do,

00:10:54   the thing about the device to device

00:10:55   is you don't have to do a backup at all.

00:10:57   You just bring your old phone next to your new phone

00:10:59   and leave 'em together,

00:11:01   and for some varying amount of time,

00:11:03   for me it seemed to take about 90 minutes each time.

00:11:06   I know some people,

00:11:08   Ben Thompson says it took eight hours

00:11:10   and still failed for him overnight.

00:11:12   I guess it depends how much stuff you have on your phone.

00:11:14   But because it's device to device,

00:11:18   you don't have to do a backup first,

00:11:19   you don't have to do anything first,

00:11:20   and Apple somehow makes a super secure connection

00:11:23   from one iPhone to the other.

00:11:25   You've already authenticated with your iCloud account,

00:11:27   and so it transfers everything,

00:11:30   or everything that can be done.

00:11:33   There are some apps that can flag something as,

00:11:36   no matter what, don't back this up.

00:11:38   And that doesn't get transferred over.

00:11:41   So like people who use the Google Authenticator app,

00:11:44   you have to do a lot of work

00:11:46   to move it to a new machine each time.

00:11:49   But anyway, what I was thinking was

00:11:50   that the biggest downside I can think of,

00:11:52   and that I heard after I wrote about this,

00:11:55   was from people in the iPhone upgrade program

00:11:57   who do it by going to the retail store,

00:12:00   because you come in, you wait,

00:12:03   and they're like, "Okay, you're up,"

00:12:04   and you go to the counter and you give them your order,

00:12:06   and they're like, "Oh, here's your new iPhone,"

00:12:08   and then you hand your old iPhone over,

00:12:10   and you expect it to get the hell out.

00:12:12   So you don't have time to do it.

00:12:16   And I suspect if you do it mid-year,

00:12:18   if you wait a couple months

00:12:19   until there's not this big rush,

00:12:21   I think that they might let you sit at the Genius counter

00:12:24   for an hour or whatever and do it.

00:12:26   But I think at the moment with COVID restrictions

00:12:29   and with the seasonal rush of everybody getting a new iPhone,

00:12:32   you can't do it.

00:12:32   - Right, and you know that I believe

00:12:37   that if you do the iPhone upgrade at home,

00:12:39   I'm almost possible, yeah, they send you the new one,

00:12:42   and you have the new one and your old one, obviously.

00:12:45   That wouldn't make any sense to send your old one first.

00:12:47   But yeah, you have the both in your possession,

00:12:49   and you can do that at your leisure.

00:12:50   But that makes sense.

00:12:51   I didn't even think about the in-store situation

00:12:53   not being friendly to that device-to-device transfer.

00:12:56   - Yeah, and I got a lot of feedback from it.

00:12:59   And I was a little wary.

00:13:00   I was like, "I'm gonna tell everybody to do this,"

00:13:01   'cause I've been doing this for so many devices

00:13:03   for so many years.

00:13:04   And what happened was a couple of years ago,

00:13:07   it was, I was staying, I think I actually took,

00:13:11   it was that year that I took the ride back to the city

00:13:14   with you after the event,

00:13:16   and you were kind enough to give me a ride

00:13:19   and I was staying in San Francisco.

00:13:21   And I hadn't set up my new iPhones yet,

00:13:23   but I had gotten them from Apple,

00:13:25   my review units after the event.

00:13:28   It's like five in the afternoon.

00:13:29   I had dinner plans with friends who live in San Francisco.

00:13:32   I was like, "Well, I need to quick set up this new iPhone."

00:13:34   And it was like, I didn't have my Mac handy, didn't have that.

00:13:37   I was like, "Oh, what a pain.

00:13:39   "I wish I could just put these right next to each other."

00:13:41   And now you can.

00:13:44   And anyway, I recommended it.

00:13:46   Readers who did it overwhelmingly were like,

00:13:49   "Hey, this is amazing.

00:13:50   "I didn't know this worked so well."

00:13:51   Or, "I tried this three years ago

00:13:53   "and it didn't work that well,

00:13:54   "and now it works so much better."

00:13:57   - That was really my situation too,

00:13:58   because I tried it the first year it was out.

00:14:01   And like you, I always have to do six of them at once

00:14:05   or four at once, or definitely a bunch more

00:14:08   than a normal person would.

00:14:09   And I experienced so many issues with it

00:14:12   the first year it was out.

00:14:13   It took an enormous amount of time,

00:14:15   like five to six hours.

00:14:16   It still didn't complete properly, et cetera.

00:14:19   And it really turned me off of that option for a while.

00:14:22   So ever since then, I have been using the iCloud option,

00:14:26   which does require, of course,

00:14:28   that you log back into all of your junk,

00:14:30   because it does not copy over the password.

00:14:32   It's not encrypted.

00:14:33   So you lose a lot of convenience,

00:14:36   and you have to go through a whole round

00:14:38   of relogging for a month.

00:14:40   You open new apps and you're,

00:14:42   "Oh, great, I haven't logged into this thing yet."

00:14:44   And you have to do that.

00:14:45   So I'm gonna give it a try next time.

00:14:47   I guess, oh, well, I guess when I get mine,

00:14:50   when I actually run my personal, I'm gonna give it a go.

00:14:53   Based off of your experience with it,

00:14:55   it seems like maybe they've improved it quite a bit,

00:14:57   or maybe it was just a bad experience

00:15:00   because I had so many devices to do at once,

00:15:02   and there's a time crunch and all that.

00:15:04   - I am under the impression that they have a,

00:15:07   I don't know how big the team is, probably a small team,

00:15:10   because small teams are generally more effective.

00:15:13   But there's a small team of people at Apple

00:15:15   who work on this stuff.

00:15:17   And to me, their work is unheralded.

00:15:19   'Cause people, you know what I mean?

00:15:21   You do it once, you forget about it.

00:15:22   And the only time most people ever really think

00:15:25   about the migration is if it fails in some way.

00:15:29   If it just works and you pick off where you left off

00:15:32   and all of your stuff is just there

00:15:34   and you're logged into almost all of your apps,

00:15:36   and it's like, you think, "Oh, that's cool,"

00:15:38   and then you'd never think about it again.

00:15:41   - It's unheralded work, but I think that they've been doing

00:15:46   extremely good work year over year,

00:15:49   making it better and better, more efficient,

00:15:51   et cetera, et cetera.

00:15:52   Let me take a break here, thank our first sponsor.

00:15:55   Look, you listening, you're a busy guy, probably,

00:15:58   possibly, if you are a guy, but I'll bet you're busy.

00:16:00   But you can stop thinking about what to wear

00:16:03   and just embrace the radically efficient

00:16:06   Mack Weldon daily wear system.

00:16:09   The daily wear system is a selection of clothes rooted

00:16:12   in smart design made with performance fabrics

00:16:15   built to work together, from breathable t-shirts

00:16:18   and polos to stylish button-ups and shorts,

00:16:21   underwear and beyond, Mack Weldon makes it easy for you

00:16:25   to dress for work, leisure, and play,

00:16:29   or wherever your fall takes you.

00:16:32   - My favorite Mack Weldon products is, I love the t-shirts.

00:16:37   I have all the underwear.

00:16:39   Underwear, you don't really think about it,

00:16:42   but man, the t-shirts, the polos, I love 'em.

00:16:45   My biggest concern with the Mack Weldon stuff,

00:16:49   as they continue to sponsor the show,

00:16:50   is that when this pandemic's over and people start

00:16:53   getting back together and there's a WWDC,

00:16:55   that everybody's gonna be wearing the same shirts.

00:16:58   Because they're that good.

00:17:01   Last time I saw my pal Marco Arment,

00:17:03   we had the same problem, we were wearing the same clothes,

00:17:05   because it's that good.

00:17:08   But the good news is, Mack Weldon keeps expanding

00:17:10   their lineup and they've got more and more stuff.

00:17:12   But it really is great stuff, I love it.

00:17:15   It really does take the thinking out of it.

00:17:17   You just go there and buy stuff and it's just great.

00:17:20   And they last and last and last and last.

00:17:23   It's really, really well-made stuff.

00:17:25   You can get started in their daily wear system

00:17:30   and get 20% off your first order by visiting Mack Weldon,

00:17:34   M-A-C-K-W-E-L-D-O-N,

00:17:37   mackweldon.com/talkshow.

00:17:41   And just use that same promo code talk show

00:17:44   when you check out.

00:17:44   You get 20% off your first order,

00:17:47   that's mackweldon.com/talkshow.

00:17:51   Go to Mack Weldon, radically efficient wardrooming.

00:17:54   Now that we're like a week past dropping the reviews,

00:18:00   what is your one week past review thinking of the state

00:18:04   of the iPhone's 13?

00:18:05   - Pretty good.

00:18:07   I mean, really solid offerings across the board.

00:18:11   I don't think there's a huge weak spot in this lineup.

00:18:15   The unification of the camera systems is huge, right?

00:18:18   That's a really big step forward.

00:18:20   They've had alternating years now of the cameras being

00:18:24   roughly comparable between the models in the same lineup

00:18:28   and then where they have not been.

00:18:30   And by far, of course, I prefer the years where you get

00:18:32   to make a choice based on your size and usability

00:18:35   and not have to give up camera capability, right?

00:18:39   You don't wanna do that.

00:18:40   It's not ideal and I'm sure it's not ideal for them as well.

00:18:43   And recently that was due to the fact that the OIS module,

00:18:48   the internal stabilization module was quite large

00:18:51   and unable to fit in some of the models.

00:18:53   And that's why the big one had it.

00:18:55   And now they've managed to miniaturize that to enough

00:18:58   of a degree where the 13 or 13 Pro Max,

00:19:02   or 13 Pro or Pro Max, you're just making a call based on

00:19:07   size and usability, which is the right thing.

00:19:10   Like you want, oh, this feels good to me,

00:19:13   so this is the one I'm gonna pick.

00:19:14   You don't want, this feels bad to me,

00:19:17   but it has the features I want, right?

00:19:19   That's a nightmare scenario for any designer.

00:19:22   It's like, oh, this feels bad, but I have to use it, right?

00:19:25   And like that sucks.

00:19:26   That's not how people who build tools

00:19:29   want you to feel about those tools.

00:19:31   And I think that's why it's in such a good state for me.

00:19:34   Like that's the core of why it feels great right now

00:19:36   is that you can make a call based on your desire

00:19:40   and usability and even between the 13 and 13 Pro.

00:19:45   And I, once again, I kind of focus on the cameras

00:19:47   'cause that's what I think about a lot.

00:19:49   But even between those two models,

00:19:51   you're making less compromises than ever

00:19:53   and really making a call based on a few edge features

00:19:56   that may not be mainstream,

00:19:59   like 120 Hertz or a few other ones,

00:20:02   and you're still getting a really great wide angle camera.

00:20:05   So if you're like someone who uses it as a primary camera,

00:20:08   but doesn't really play around with the telephoto

00:20:10   or whatever, you do have the option to just genuinely say,

00:20:14   I can save money and still get a really great camera

00:20:18   versus, oh, I can save money,

00:20:19   but I know I'm gonna get up kind of a poorer camera out of

00:20:22   this, right?

00:20:23   And I think that's a really, really good solid position

00:20:26   for Apple to be in.

00:20:27   And I think it makes the choice

00:20:29   for the consumer really great.

00:20:31   And so they're gonna end up with, I think,

00:20:32   a big, big sales year for these models

00:20:36   because of the lack of compromises necessary.

00:20:38   - Yeah, I think lack of compromise is a good summary.

00:20:42   In the earlier years of iPhone,

00:20:44   like the first half of the iPhone era,

00:20:46   they were much more on a AB cycle,

00:20:51   TikTok cycle, I guess, in the parlance, right?

00:20:53   And famously, they were,

00:20:55   for iPhone 4, 4S, iPhone 5, 5S, iPhone 6, 6S.

00:21:00   And the iPhone 7 and sorta knocks,

00:21:05   is when they first knocked off that.

00:21:06   But those six years of like 4, 4S, 5, 5S, 6, 6S,

00:21:11   I know lots and lots of people.

00:21:14   And if you're a semi-enthusiast,

00:21:17   a two-year upgrade cycle is super normal, super sensible.

00:21:21   And if you're less of a enthusiast,

00:21:24   going more, as many years as you can between upgrading,

00:21:27   and everybody has family members who are like that.

00:21:29   Like my mom just waited until the battery health was like,

00:21:33   practically begging her,

00:21:36   "Seriously, we're not really trying to sell you a new iPhone,

00:21:38   "but this iPhone 6 is really, really,

00:21:42   "the battery's not that good."

00:21:44   I remember from that era,

00:21:46   a lot of daring Fireball readers,

00:21:48   after reviews would drop in every year,

00:21:50   and a lot of them would say,

00:21:52   "I'm on the S cycle.

00:21:53   "I upgrade every two years, I'm on the S cycle,

00:21:55   "and I could not be happier for it."

00:21:57   I think the S, every year, these S phones come out,

00:22:01   and so many of the reviews are like,

00:22:03   "Ah, it looks just like last year's phone.

00:22:06   "It's an incremental upgrade."

00:22:08   And they're like, "I love the incremental upgrades,

00:22:10   "because it's like they've taken,"

00:22:12   and then they would name their two or three pet compromises

00:22:16   from the one-year-old phone that were fixed in the S cycle.

00:22:20   And they're calling this the iPhone 13,

00:22:24   and I get why they don't use the S thing much anymore.

00:22:30   They did it with the XS,

00:22:31   which was not quite clearly the old school S upgrade,

00:22:36   'cause there was also the XR, which was there with it,

00:22:39   and brought the iPhone X style to a much lower price point.

00:22:44   I get it for marketing reasons,

00:22:47   that the S maybe signals to too many people

00:22:50   that it is a minor upgrade,

00:22:52   that it's like screaming minor upgrade.

00:22:54   It's kind of curious they ever used it.

00:22:56   But in other ways, you could think of these

00:23:00   as sort of like the 12S.

00:23:02   And sometimes, I guess, with the S phones,

00:23:05   they were so close physically

00:23:07   that you could just use the same cases

00:23:09   as the year before,

00:23:10   or they would tweak the cases by half of a millimeter,

00:23:15   but they would still say it's compatible,

00:23:18   this case is compatible with both the 5S and the 5

00:23:21   when the new cases came out.

00:23:22   To me, that's what the iPhone 13 is like.

00:23:26   And I don't mean it to belittle it,

00:23:28   I just think it is,

00:23:30   key is what you just mentioned to me,

00:23:33   is that if you prefer the smaller 6.1-inch size

00:23:37   to the max 6.7-inch size,

00:23:40   it's fantastic that you get the exact same camera system,

00:23:44   and both have been upgraded with faster lenses,

00:23:48   including a much faster, super ultra-wide,

00:23:51   the 0.5X lens, which also shoots macro,

00:23:55   and now the telephoto has gone from 2X

00:24:00   at that size range to 3X,

00:24:02   which is a lot more throw.

00:24:04   And they're just the same,

00:24:05   and all you have to do is pick which size you like better.

00:24:08   And it's a little bit more than just which size

00:24:10   you like better in your hand,

00:24:11   because you do get super-duper more battery life

00:24:14   with the Pro Max, right?

00:24:16   - Right, right, not so to be overlooked, right.

00:24:18   - Right, and so, let's face it,

00:24:21   one of the things that's overlooked in all of this,

00:24:23   to me, overlooked by a lot,

00:24:24   is how many people, their iPhone is their primary computer.

00:24:29   And at a consumer level,

00:24:33   there's a lot of people who just don't own another computer,

00:24:36   right, and maybe it's even just a price thing,

00:24:39   and you're young and you're a student,

00:24:41   or you're just low-income for whatever reason,

00:24:44   and owning a high-end, a nice iPhone,

00:24:48   that's your budget for a computer.

00:24:50   But for a lot of people, it's just like their lifestyle,

00:24:53   right, that they're just on their feet all day.

00:24:56   We just watched the new episode of the season opener

00:24:59   of "The Morning Show" with all these TV people,

00:25:02   and I know there's this whole subset of,

00:25:04   oh, Apple makes them put iPhones into all these shows

00:25:07   on Apple TV+, but I think that's a realistic depiction

00:25:11   of life as a TV executive.

00:25:13   - Yeah, I think so.

00:25:14   I think as a modern media executive,

00:25:16   if you have an Android phone, good luck to you.

00:25:19   - Right, like, Ted Lasso has a lot of iPhones in it,

00:25:21   but it's not people walking around all scene, every scene,

00:25:25   with their iPhone in front of them,

00:25:26   whereas the media executives on the show

00:25:30   have their phones in front of them all the time,

00:25:31   and that's true, they do.

00:25:33   And if you're that sort of person,

00:25:35   getting the Macs makes sense.

00:25:36   Like, if you're on your phone from your morning commute

00:25:40   until you get home and have a chance to plug it in,

00:25:42   it makes sense.

00:25:43   - Totally.

00:25:45   If you use a laptop 20% of the day or 10% of the day,

00:25:50   and your phone 70% of the day,

00:25:53   I mean, it makes a lot of sense to say,

00:25:55   "Hey, I need a big typing surface.

00:25:57   "I wanna see these emails.

00:25:59   "I wanna read 'em closely,

00:26:00   "and I have to say it's very, very easy

00:26:03   "to pooh-pooh the larger size and go,

00:26:05   "oh, you could type just as well until you get older."

00:26:08   And then you're like, "Hey, you know what would be great?

00:26:11   "If I could see anything, that would be awesome."

00:26:14   And I think that it's obviously a big hit for those.

00:26:17   If you do a bigger font, you got more screen real estate,

00:26:20   that's a factor.

00:26:21   - Right.

00:26:22   The other thing, too, is, and I know,

00:26:26   you and I commit to a little bit during the review period.

00:26:29   We're not competitive with each other.

00:26:32   Basically, people who've come on my show,

00:26:37   like you and Joanna,

00:26:40   it's like, we'll commit sometimes or ask questions

00:26:43   while we're reviewing these phones.

00:26:45   - Yeah, gut checks can be helpful, too.

00:26:47   Make sure you're not an outlier.

00:26:48   - Yeah, gut checks, right?

00:26:49   But for the most part, one of my fears always

00:26:52   with these reviews is that I'm gonna publish my review.

00:26:55   I've had six days with this thing,

00:26:58   and I've tried to devote as much time to it as I can

00:27:00   and think about it from consumer's perspective

00:27:03   and my audience's perspective in particular.

00:27:06   Here's the thoughts.

00:27:07   And then I'm worried I'm gonna look

00:27:08   at everybody else's reviews,

00:27:09   and they're all going to complain about X,

00:27:12   or they're all gonna say--

00:27:13   - That you're gonna just totally miss a huge flaw.

00:27:15   - Yeah, miss a huge flaw.

00:27:17   Maybe the closest to that was

00:27:19   when the cellular Apple Watch came out.

00:27:21   There was a weird glitch where some people were saying--

00:27:24   - Right, a Wi-Fi issue.

00:27:25   - Yeah.

00:27:27   I had never encountered it.

00:27:29   I think it was like that it would latch onto a public Wi-Fi,

00:27:32   but it needed a authentication,

00:27:34   but therefore because it was latched onto the Wi-Fi,

00:27:37   but needed an authentication that the watch itself

00:27:39   wasn't capable of prompting you for,

00:27:42   like a coffee shop that says,

00:27:44   "Oh, okay, it's a known network, so I'll latch onto it."

00:27:47   But the coffee shop wants you to type a password

00:27:49   or something like that that you can--

00:27:50   - Yeah, the capture gateways that hotels use.

00:27:54   - Yeah, it was something like that.

00:27:57   But for the most part this year,

00:28:00   I thought there was a remarkable consensus,

00:28:02   which was my thrust, which was,

00:28:03   "Look, they made the cameras better, a lot better,

00:28:06   noticeably better in ways that real people

00:28:09   will really take better photos and better videos,

00:28:13   and they have significantly improved battery life

00:28:17   in a very practical way."

00:28:19   And better cameras and better battery life

00:28:22   are literally the main things.

00:28:24   I know there's the whole,

00:28:25   you can't just ask people what they want

00:28:27   'cause they'd say they want faster horses

00:28:29   instead of knowing that they should switch to automobiles.

00:28:32   But people know what they do with their iPhones,

00:28:33   and people like more battery life,

00:28:36   and people, everybody, almost everybody uses the camera.

00:28:40   - Right.

00:28:42   It's just not that, it's not rocket science, right?

00:28:46   Like you go into these things going,

00:28:47   "Oh, I wonder what am I gonna miss?

00:28:50   What angles am I gonna get?"

00:28:51   And I think sometimes people overthink it,

00:28:53   and you don't need to overthink what people want

00:28:55   from their smartphone in a lot of cases these days,

00:28:58   because you know absolutely it is their primary camera.

00:29:01   That ship sailed in like 2014 or something, right?

00:29:06   So you know it's their primary camera,

00:29:08   and you know that they use it a lot

00:29:10   because every app statistic on the planet

00:29:12   will tell you that people are using their phones

00:29:15   more and more, and what is the result of that?

00:29:17   Well, battery, right?

00:29:19   So those two things are not for overthinkers, right?

00:29:22   And I think that sometimes people get into overthinking it,

00:29:25   and therefore undervalue those basics, right?

00:29:29   They undervalue those simple, they're like,

00:29:31   "Oh, surely it can't just be somebody buys this

00:29:34   because it has 12% more battery."

00:29:36   It's like, well, yeah, because it's a binary decision.

00:29:40   Does it have more battery or less, right?

00:29:43   Not, "Oh, does it have 17%?"

00:29:45   Now I'm convinced.

00:29:47   It's like, no, does it have more battery?

00:29:48   Okay, I'll buy that one, right?

00:29:50   Like most people are not sitting there

00:29:51   looking at a chart.

00:29:53   Like I put charts in my reviews time and time

00:29:55   because I know some people like that, and that's great.

00:29:58   And I, you know, obviously I need to do the measurements

00:30:00   myself to contextualize my feelings,

00:30:03   so I do the measurements.

00:30:04   But most people are not.

00:30:05   They're like, "Is it more about, oh, is that more battery?

00:30:07   Oh, cool."

00:30:08   And then when they go to order it,

00:30:09   they just order the one with more battery.

00:30:10   - Yeah. - And that's not,

00:30:11   you know, you don't need to overthink that too much.

00:30:15   - Tim Cook talks about that a lot

00:30:16   when he talks about Apple Watch.

00:30:18   And you know, it comes up so often

00:30:20   that I know it's not a talking point

00:30:23   because he's said it for years,

00:30:25   but that the thing he loves most about Apple Watch

00:30:27   is that he's been a fitness enthusiast

00:30:29   since long before Apple Watch.

00:30:31   But there were things he thought

00:30:32   he was accomplishing each day

00:30:34   that it turns out he wasn't until he got the numbers.

00:30:37   And it's, I got some, you know,

00:30:40   maybe some pushback I got last year.

00:30:42   I gave a very, very positive review to the iPhone 12 mini,

00:30:46   and I was very close to buying the iPhone 12 mini

00:30:50   as my personal phone for the last year.

00:30:52   It was the closest call I've ever had

00:30:55   in all the years of multiple new iPhones

00:30:58   of deciding which one to buy

00:31:00   because I was so enamored with it in so many ways.

00:31:03   Like, it's weight and the low amount of volume

00:31:08   it takes up in a jeans pocket.

00:31:11   Battery life was not the reason

00:31:13   that I went with the 12 instead of the 12 mini.

00:31:16   For me, it was typing.

00:31:18   And even though the 12 mini is a size

00:31:21   that's very comparable keyboard,

00:31:24   the physical keyboard on the iPhone mini size

00:31:27   is very comparable to the old iPhones of yesteryear,

00:31:32   my thumbs have lost their ability to type at that speed.

00:31:36   And I very specifically remember

00:31:38   that it was during the six-day election of 2020,

00:31:44   where it was five days from election day

00:31:49   until Saturday morning when CNN

00:31:52   or whoever it was the first to call it

00:31:53   and said, "We're calling it.

00:31:55   "Joe Biden is the winner."

00:31:57   And I remember I watched an awful lot of TV

00:31:59   in those five days,

00:32:02   and I was using the 12 mini as my main phone,

00:32:05   and I was like, "I am making so many typos,

00:32:09   "and I'm trying to do all this stuff,

00:32:10   "but I cannot leave the couch to get something else

00:32:13   "because what if Steve Kornacki comes on

00:32:15   "and tells me something about County Georgia?

00:32:19   "Oh my God, I can't leave."

00:32:20   So I was just on the 12 mini,

00:32:22   and it was the pandemic.

00:32:24   I wasn't leaving.

00:32:25   I could easily plug the mini in for five minutes

00:32:28   here and there while I got a beverage

00:32:30   or MSNBC cut to commercial.

00:32:32   And so I wasn't running out of battery.

00:32:34   It was the typing of all things, the typing.

00:32:36   And so I was like, "You know what?

00:32:37   "I'm gonna buy a 12."

00:32:38   But-- - Yeah, I mean,

00:32:41   that's the same reason I didn't go with the mini.

00:32:42   I love everything about it,

00:32:43   but my meaty thumbs can't handle it, unfortunately.

00:32:47   I wish they could.

00:32:48   And it's crazy 'cause they used to be able to.

00:32:50   I mean, I used to be there.

00:32:51   But they used to be able to

00:32:53   because we all used to type on that side screen.

00:32:55   That's what's hilarious about it,

00:32:56   but now we can't do it anymore.

00:32:58   - Right, but all that said,

00:33:00   but the battery life was a compromise.

00:33:02   It was seriously, it was a bit compromised on battery life.

00:33:06   And that was definitely a hit.

00:33:08   And there were people who were like,

00:33:09   "Yeah, you should have called out the battery life more."

00:33:11   And it's like, well, to me, it was within what Apple said.

00:33:15   If Apple said, I don't know what the numbers were

00:33:18   for the hours, but if it said it was only 66%

00:33:22   of the battery life of the 12 Pro or something like that,

00:33:25   it's like, I think that was fair.

00:33:27   That might be a deal breaker for you,

00:33:29   only having 2/3 of the battery life.

00:33:31   And so to me, that was a compromise.

00:33:34   And one of the most amazing things

00:33:35   about the battery life improvements

00:33:37   with the iPhone 13 lineup

00:33:39   is that this year's iPhone 13 mini

00:33:44   gets longer battery life than last year's mid-size,

00:33:48   regular-size, whatever you wanna call it, iPhone 12.

00:33:51   So that to me is removing the compromise.

00:33:54   And sure, the 13 mini still has the lowest battery life

00:33:58   of all the iPhone 13 for the obvious reason

00:34:01   that it has the smallest battery.

00:34:03   But that's a huge one-year gain

00:34:07   that the mini size now has a longer-lasting battery

00:34:12   by every measure you can think of

00:34:14   than last year's regular-sized iPhone 12.

00:34:17   That's amazing.

00:34:19   - Yeah, that's a huge leap in one year.

00:34:21   And if you're talking about compromise or whatever,

00:34:25   it does delete an enormous amount of compromise

00:34:28   that those people had to make last year,

00:34:30   the people choosing that phone.

00:34:31   And it removes, obviously, the barrier

00:34:34   for a lot of people that would have

00:34:36   bought that last year, but felt like,

00:34:39   ah, man, I run out of battery every day today already.

00:34:43   I can't go to less, right?

00:34:47   And that's a definite leap forward.

00:34:50   - Yeah, so the two big compromises

00:34:54   that they eliminated year over year,

00:34:57   the mini no longer has bad battery life

00:34:59   and now has perfectly adequate,

00:35:01   by anybody's definition, battery life for the size.

00:35:04   And the midsize 13 Pro has the exact same camera system

00:35:09   as the Pro Max, and they made both cameras better.

00:35:15   Very, very impressive to me year over year.

00:35:20   I wanna keep talking about the camera stuff,

00:35:21   but I'm gonna take another break here

00:35:23   and thank our friends.

00:35:24   Oh, man, I love Memberful.

00:35:28   Memberful is how you can monetize your passion

00:35:31   with memberships.

00:35:32   Memberful allows you to build a sustainable,

00:35:35   recurring revenue.

00:35:37   It is the easiest way to sell memberships to your audience,

00:35:40   and it is used by some of the biggest creators on the web.

00:35:42   It is used by many of my personal favorite sites,

00:35:46   including those from my friends,

00:35:47   like Jason Snell at Six Colors.

00:35:49   I'm a member of more Memberful sites

00:35:53   than I can count on, definitely on one hand.

00:35:56   One of the best things is that they never put their brand

00:35:58   in front of yours.

00:36:00   So once you're a member at Six Colors, let's just say,

00:36:03   you're never reminded that you're going through Memberful.

00:36:06   It always just feels like you're going right through

00:36:08   to Six Colors, and you just never have to worry about it.

00:36:12   And it couldn't be better.

00:36:13   If you are the creator, though, what a great advantage

00:36:16   to you that you can have a partner like this

00:36:18   who takes care of all the hard stuff,

00:36:20   all of this infrastructure,

00:36:22   and also doesn't dilute your own brand at all

00:36:26   or get in the way of your direct communication

00:36:30   with your audience.

00:36:31   You have full control and ownership of your audience,

00:36:34   your brand, and your membership with Memberful.

00:36:36   If you ever do wanna leave for whatever reason,

00:36:39   you just take your whole audience with you.

00:36:41   There's no lock-in, and it's not like,

00:36:43   "Ugh, I wanna leave Memberful, but I can't get out."

00:36:46   No, they'll let you out.

00:36:47   That's how confident they are that you won't,

00:36:49   because it's such a great product and a great service.

00:36:52   And you can get started for free.

00:36:54   Try it out with no credit card required.

00:36:58   It is just a great system.

00:36:59   I am so happy to be a member of so many Memberful sites.

00:37:04   And again, they handle all the hard stuff,

00:37:07   the credit card stuff, the credit card expiration stuff,

00:37:11   which is like a mess, right?

00:37:12   It's like somebody subscribes in June,

00:37:15   and then their card expires in January,

00:37:17   and then their renewal comes up.

00:37:18   Memberful handles all of that stuff.

00:37:21   Where do you go to find out more

00:37:23   if you wanna get started and monetize your passion?

00:37:27   Go to Memberful, M-E-M-B-E-R, Memberful, F-U-L,

00:37:32   dot com slash talk show.

00:37:34   That's Memberful dot com slash talk show.

00:37:37   My thanks to Memberful for their continuing support

00:37:42   of the talk show.

00:37:42   The iPhone 13 camera system.

00:37:49   Number one, I kinda feel, if regrets,

00:37:51   I don't have many regrets with my review.

00:37:53   Every year, I'm a mess.

00:37:55   I never make the embargo.

00:37:56   I came closer this year than I have sometimes.

00:37:59   There have been times when the sun has dropped.

00:38:02   - I didn't make it this year either.

00:38:03   I mean, there's a reason it's not until then or after.

00:38:07   Like everybody races to publish right away,

00:38:08   and I get it, and I get agita over it every year as well.

00:38:12   But I figure at some point,

00:38:14   you gotta do the best job you can.

00:38:16   - It's good to have a deadline,

00:38:18   especially for me, 'cause there's no boss that I report to

00:38:21   who's gonna be bugging me.

00:38:23   But it's good to have that pressure.

00:38:25   If you don't hit the exact embargo,

00:38:28   you're not gonna be the top review

00:38:30   in the tech meme leaderboard for the thing.

00:38:33   But that's fine with me.

00:38:35   People wait, but I wanna get it out.

00:38:38   But it's harder.

00:38:40   And I mentioned this, I forget if I wrote about it.

00:38:43   I think I wrote about it.

00:38:43   When I was talking about the fact

00:38:45   that the Microsoft Surface event had,

00:38:47   the event itself did not have a live audience

00:38:50   for COVID reasons, but they did have hands-on area

00:38:55   all with COVID protocols, but in small groups,

00:38:58   but they had hands-on time for people in the press

00:39:01   and in-person product briefings.

00:39:03   And I miss that.

00:39:04   I find in-person briefings so much more effective

00:39:08   for communicating, and it's really starting to wear thin

00:39:11   to me that we've had.

00:39:13   And again, I don't blame Apple.

00:39:15   There's no way they could have held an in-person event

00:39:17   in September of any size for the iPhone,

00:39:21   'cause there's no way to cut the iPhone's event size,

00:39:23   the press list, down to a manageable level for COVID.

00:39:26   So I'm not saying they should have.

00:39:28   I'm just saying I miss it.

00:39:29   But the other thing is that even that one extra day

00:39:32   makes such a difference to me, right?

00:39:34   So if the embargo is also on Tuesday morning

00:39:37   and it's a Tuesday, if it's in-person,

00:39:39   you get the product Tuesday afternoon.

00:39:42   And if it's not in-person, they ship 'em,

00:39:45   and at best, you get them Wednesday afternoon.

00:39:49   And it's six days versus seven days.

00:39:52   Well, that's 16% more time that you have with the product.

00:39:56   Which is, right?

00:39:57   It's not nothing.

00:39:59   - Yeah, no, it's true.

00:40:00   And it's a time crunch to get all the tests you want done.

00:40:04   And that first day, my goal, my only goal,

00:40:08   really the first day, is to unbox everything,

00:40:10   take a peek at it, and immediately start all of the updates.

00:40:14   And what you do is you get the sleep time back, right?

00:40:19   'Cause your sleep time is spent with all of those devices

00:40:22   using your Wi-Fi to slurp all of their apps down from,

00:40:25   well, you know, with my method,

00:40:27   slurp them down from the App Store and to start indexing.

00:40:32   'Cause I don't start any battery tests

00:40:35   until several days later,

00:40:36   because I like to give them time to index.

00:40:39   And I don't test fresh iPhones.

00:40:42   I test them as people would,

00:40:45   and I know you do the same,

00:40:46   as people would do buy a new iPhone.

00:40:48   They buy a new iPhone, they're gonna update it

00:40:50   or restore it from their backup and start using it.

00:40:53   Almost nobody, I would guess,

00:40:55   a very small portion of the population starts fresh.

00:40:58   So you need to have that same experience

00:41:00   that the person buying it is gonna be

00:41:01   to give it the proper evaluation.

00:41:04   So you download everything and you let it start indexing.

00:41:07   And I don't wanna evaluate based on the time

00:41:10   while it's indexing, 'cause that's obviously awful.

00:41:12   But that 12 hours is extremely helpful

00:41:15   in letting it run all night and index and back up.

00:41:19   And by the morning, I have semi-functioning devices

00:41:22   that are indexing in the background,

00:41:23   but that I can start running preliminary testing

00:41:25   on my cameras and stuff.

00:41:27   - And just on the cameras alone.

00:41:29   So there's battery life, there's that.

00:41:30   There's that you need.

00:41:31   You need, like you said, it's exactly what you said.

00:41:34   You need at least maybe 48 hours

00:41:36   before you can say that the phone,

00:41:37   even if you set it up as soon as it's in your hands,

00:41:40   24, 36, 48 hours before you can start talking,

00:41:43   evaluating battery life in a fair sense is true.

00:41:48   And on the cameras alone, this year, testing,

00:41:51   I devoted my time to the phone I was most interested in,

00:41:54   the 6.1-inch midsize 13 Pro.

00:41:58   All three camera lenses are new.

00:42:01   The 3X lens is new with a new sensor.

00:42:04   It's a new lens and a new sensor.

00:42:06   The regular default 1X lens

00:42:09   has an even bigger pixels on the sensor,

00:42:13   and the bigger pixels on the sensor

00:42:14   is one of the single biggest changes they can make

00:42:17   to make it a more effective camera.

00:42:19   And the 0.5X lens, which has gotten the least love

00:42:24   over the years in terms of functional improvements

00:42:28   on the Pros this year is a huge upgrade,

00:42:31   a better sensor with autofocus now.

00:42:35   You could quibble over whether it should be called

00:42:37   autofocus or not, but it has a focusing system,

00:42:41   which the previous ones were all fixed focus,

00:42:43   more light-gathering capability,

00:42:45   so it's more useful indoors, so all three lenses.

00:42:47   So even if you're just talking stills

00:42:49   and just regular stills,

00:42:50   and not even talking portrait mode,

00:42:52   you've got three lenses to evaluate and take pictures of.

00:42:55   And then there's a macro mode. (laughs)

00:42:59   Then there is portrait mode,

00:43:02   which you can take at two different focal lengths,

00:43:05   and now with video, they added an entirely new

00:43:09   cinematic thing. - Yeah, it's like seven

00:43:10   different cameras you have to evaluate.

00:43:11   - There's no chance, and I don't do,

00:43:14   sometimes in years past, a couple years ago

00:43:17   when I first added night mode, I had a photo,

00:43:19   actual photos in my review, much heavier than usual,

00:43:23   when I went to my friend Lee's Hopsing Laundromat,

00:43:25   which is a very dark, beautiful, beautiful,

00:43:29   beautiful cocktail bar here in Philadelphia,

00:43:32   but he was kind enough to let me come in

00:43:34   while they were closed, and it was literally

00:43:37   just candle lit, no electrical lighting at all.

00:43:40   He just lit the candles like he would

00:43:41   when they were open in the evening,

00:43:43   and I took a bunch of photos and included them

00:43:47   in my review to show night mode

00:43:50   versus the year-over-year camera.

00:43:52   So I have done that sometimes, but I just,

00:43:55   you know, no surprise to anybody who's listening to my show,

00:43:59   my reviews are usually less illustrated

00:44:02   and more just textual.

00:44:04   But I do take a lot of photos,

00:44:06   even if I don't put them in a review,

00:44:07   and there's just no time, there's just no possible way

00:44:10   I could have done it all, so I did not shoot

00:44:12   a lot of cinematic mode video before the review.

00:44:15   But the one thing that I felt like I should have done more of

00:44:19   and I underestimated how much I truly love it

00:44:22   and feel that it truly changes and expands

00:44:26   the capabilities is macro.

00:44:28   The macro, it blows my mind, that's my big,

00:44:31   my single biggest one-week-later regret

00:44:34   is that I didn't do more macro and praise macro more.

00:44:38   - Yeah, yeah, I think the macro side of it

00:44:43   is truly exciting for a lot of people

00:44:46   because it is more accessible than telephoto shooting.

00:44:49   Telephoto shooting is a weird one

00:44:50   because it's not truly not like some sort

00:44:53   of 300 millimeter telephoto, this is not a sports lens,

00:44:55   it's more of a portraiture lens,

00:44:57   and it can be hard to decide when or when not to use it.

00:44:59   But I think everybody understands the excitement

00:45:02   and interesting ability that a macro,

00:45:05   and it's like, oh, you could shoot things super close up,

00:45:07   that's awesome, right?

00:45:08   And people tend to, I think, use that kind of feature more

00:45:12   because more things are closer to you, right?

00:45:14   It's just one of those logical things.

00:45:16   You're able to sort of shoot things

00:45:18   that are right up next to you and get cool views,

00:45:20   and everybody loves bugs and flowers and close-up stuff.

00:45:23   And that aspect of it, I think, is undersung

00:45:27   because I think a lot of people treat macro

00:45:30   as a specialty type of photography,

00:45:32   but the reality is it doesn't have to be,

00:45:34   it's just always required specialized equipment.

00:45:37   And that's been the big thing.

00:45:38   Everybody would love it if the camera could shoot

00:45:42   super close up and get texture and all this,

00:45:44   but it requires, oh, it requires this $1,000 lens

00:45:46   and expertise and you gotta hover

00:45:48   and you gotta know how to focus and blah, blah, blah.

00:45:51   It's just not accessible, right?

00:45:53   And that's what this just changes.

00:45:54   - And Austin Mann had in his excellent as usual,

00:45:59   and not exotic at all, photo review on a--

00:46:04   - Just like everybody, we're taking a little safari

00:46:07   now and then.

00:46:07   - Yeah, a safari in Tanzania.

00:46:11   But he had the best thing to say about macro

00:46:15   that I could think of, but that he carries a macro lens

00:46:18   with him everywhere he goes 'cause he just wants

00:46:20   to be able to capture that, and he's a professional

00:46:22   photographer and he's super gifted and a very nice guy.

00:46:24   I've met him several times.

00:46:26   He's exactly like what he comes across in those videos.

00:46:29   But he says, "I carry a macro lens wherever I go

00:46:32   "just in case I see something that I want it."

00:46:34   But it's, A, like you said, they're like $1,000

00:46:37   starting point, and they're very heavy.

00:46:39   They're really heavy glass.

00:46:41   So the professional photographers who are like,

00:46:44   "Well, I need a telephoto and I need a normal lens,

00:46:47   "and of course I need a wide angle,

00:46:48   "but I like to have a fisheye sometimes

00:46:49   "if it needs to count as a thing."

00:46:51   And oh, and a macro, and all of a sudden you've got

00:46:53   25 pounds of glass that you're carrying around

00:46:55   on your back everywhere you go.

00:46:57   It's just not practical for consumers,

00:46:59   and it's certainly not practical for in your pocket

00:47:02   walking around daily carry, or even if you carry

00:47:06   a backpack or a purse or something and you have room,

00:47:10   it's just people don't, even if they take an extra lens,

00:47:13   even if they walk around with a camera,

00:47:14   they're not taking a macro lens, right?

00:47:16   (laughs)

00:47:17   It's too obscure.

00:47:20   It is game-changing what you can get a photo of,

00:47:24   and how neat it is.

00:47:26   It's almost kinda nutty, right?

00:47:30   That all of a sudden now it's just the thing

00:47:32   that you were gonna buy anyway.

00:47:33   Oh, and by the way, now you can take

00:47:35   kind of extraordinary macro photography.

00:47:38   And then in my review, I felt like I spent more time,

00:47:40   rather than praising what you can do with it,

00:47:42   complaining about the automatic camera shift

00:47:47   and the weird--

00:47:48   - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

00:47:50   - It's sort of like--

00:47:51   - Yeah, the switch between the wide

00:47:52   and telephoto that happens, yeah.

00:47:54   - Yeah, and I wish I had thought of this.

00:47:55   My other regret for the review is that I didn't describe it

00:47:58   as vertigo-inducing.

00:48:00   It's sort of like a vertigo feeling when it switches.

00:48:03   And I spent more time complaining about that

00:48:05   than I did praising the capabilities.

00:48:08   - Well, I mean, in some ways that's our job, right?

00:48:11   Is to go to the max.

00:48:12   And then I always view it as if you write a review

00:48:17   and you're critical of a feature,

00:48:18   or you point out the shortfalls

00:48:22   of a particular innovation or feature or whatever.

00:48:24   And people come in afterwards and you go,

00:48:26   "Hey, cut it some slack.

00:48:27   "It's actually pretty good."

00:48:28   I think that I'm at the right point.

00:48:31   You don't want people coming in and going like,

00:48:33   "Oh, you over-praised this thing

00:48:37   "that's clearly got massive flaws."

00:48:39   I mean, obviously, I feel comfortable with most of my,

00:48:43   well, hopefully all of my reviews,

00:48:45   'cause I do feel that I evaluate things fairly,

00:48:48   but I'm more comfortable if people come and say,

00:48:52   "Hey, cut this thing some slack," and that's fine.

00:48:55   Because that's your job,

00:48:56   is to be relatively critical of a thing

00:48:59   in an equanimitous sense.

00:49:01   You wanna be critical and fair.

00:49:04   I always tell my writers, "Skeptical, not cynical."

00:49:07   Like, so you gotta come in and say,

00:49:09   "Hey, this is great, but here's the where it falls short

00:49:14   "of what its goals were."

00:49:17   And that's kinda the key, 'cause I will say,

00:49:20   I'm gonna be frank about the quality of this macro lens.

00:49:23   There's a significant amount of aberration near the edges.

00:49:25   It separates and blurs a lot near the edges of the image.

00:49:30   It introduces some color and artifacting.

00:49:33   And I mentioned this all in my review.

00:49:34   This is not some sort of thing I'd,

00:49:35   the ex post facto or whatever.

00:49:37   I mentioned this in my review.

00:49:38   But just to be clear,

00:49:39   if you have a very high quality macro lens

00:49:44   that has excellent optics and glass and is well-coated,

00:49:48   and you're a skilled user of that lens,

00:49:50   these are not comparable images between these two things.

00:49:54   However, it adds what in photographic terms

00:49:58   you would call a photographic language to your repertoire.

00:50:02   It's like learning a few words of French

00:50:05   and going to France.

00:50:06   It's just a light years difference in experience

00:50:09   from zero to one.

00:50:10   Like you go to France and you know no French,

00:50:12   you're gonna get roughly the same reception

00:50:14   as any other traveler going to France.

00:50:16   You go to France and you know a few words of French

00:50:18   and you pronounce them properly.

00:50:19   It's very key to say this

00:50:21   because the French are very particular about the language.

00:50:23   But if you do, you get a completely different reception

00:50:26   from anybody from a cab driver to a server at a restaurant

00:50:31   to a major theater hotel,

00:50:32   or even just people that you meet.

00:50:34   They appreciate and respect

00:50:38   that you are trying to use their native language

00:50:41   and to try to make some effort to understand their culture

00:50:44   to some small degree.

00:50:45   And it is a zero to one experience in travel.

00:50:48   And that's what this macro lens offers people

00:50:50   is a completely new language to speak

00:50:53   that they would not have been able to speak otherwise.

00:50:55   And it's like saying,

00:50:56   "Hey, you don't know the language at all

00:50:57   and you can never learn it."

00:50:58   Or you've taken some language courses

00:51:01   and you can order a coffee and a piece of toast

00:51:06   and get a warm reception and a nice chat with somebody

00:51:11   just by knowing a few words of the language.

00:51:12   And that's what this does to me.

00:51:14   It's not about perfection.

00:51:15   It's not about best in class, or I say in class,

00:51:18   but it's not about best in world experience

00:51:22   with a macro lens and, "Oh man, this is perfect."

00:51:24   It's you can do this now

00:51:26   when you couldn't do it before at all.

00:51:28   And it's not only that,

00:51:30   but it's actually pretty goddamn good

00:51:32   for such a small lens.

00:51:35   Tiny, tiny bit of optic.

00:51:37   And it's tucked away inside of an ultra wide,

00:51:40   which is awesome.

00:51:41   Just the amount of the feet that they pulled off here

00:51:43   is really incredible.

00:51:45   And it's not about perfection and image quality perfection,

00:51:47   which is why you mention it, but don't dwell on it.

00:51:50   But then you've got to acknowledge

00:51:52   that it also makes things possible

00:51:55   that weren't possible before

00:51:56   for millions to hundreds of millions of people

00:52:00   over the next few years,

00:52:01   because the feature is not gonna go away, right?

00:52:03   That they could never do before.

00:52:05   And that to me is the importance.

00:52:06   You have to balance those two factors.

00:52:08   Hey, it's not optical perfection,

00:52:11   but at the same time, it's an enabling feature

00:52:14   that makes people able to do things

00:52:16   they could not do before.

00:52:17   And to that degree, it is like an exoskeleton

00:52:20   or a superpower for a lot of people.

00:52:22   And I think that part of it's cool.

00:52:24   - I also found out recently that in addition,

00:52:27   I've known that the French are very particular

00:52:29   about the pronunciation of their language.

00:52:31   I didn't realize they're so persnickety

00:52:33   about their submarines as well, but.

00:52:35   (laughing)

00:52:36   - Yes, yes, apparently.

00:52:39   - But I do, I love the analogy, I do.

00:52:42   And it's like, you know, again,

00:52:43   it's sort of like the thing where if you know enough

00:52:45   that you can like ask for help getting on the Metro

00:52:47   and going the right way to go somewhere,

00:52:50   it like totally expands your trip, right?

00:52:52   Because now you feel like, you know, I'm confident enough.

00:52:54   I don't really, you know, I don't know it a lot,

00:52:56   but I could ask somebody for help

00:52:58   and get on the Metro and go elsewhere in Paris.

00:53:02   It's like, instead of just staying

00:53:04   within walking distance of your hotel,

00:53:06   it totally expands your trip, I get it.

00:53:09   And maybe a good analogy too,

00:53:10   is sort of like when the iPhone first started

00:53:13   getting serious about the phone

00:53:15   and it wasn't just an afterthought,

00:53:16   which I think was like the iPhone 4

00:53:19   is like the first camera that had like auto-focus

00:53:21   and like where Phil Schiller actually spent time

00:53:25   in the introduction talking about camera features.

00:53:28   - Right.

00:53:29   - Somebody pointed out, it is hilarious,

00:53:31   but with the original iPhone in 2007,

00:53:34   it was like I waited in line,

00:53:36   'cause you remember back then you had to wait,

00:53:37   there was no way to pre-order.

00:53:38   You had to like go to the Apple store and get in line.

00:53:40   And I got in line and I got it in the afternoon

00:53:43   and got one for the wife and we came home

00:53:45   and AT&T totally took a nationwide crap out.

00:53:50   - Yes.

00:53:51   - But it was like, you had to,

00:53:53   like the only way to get it hooked up

00:53:55   is you had to open it up,

00:53:56   connect it to a computer, to iTunes,

00:53:59   and then iTunes would like authorize the phone

00:54:02   and whatever you call it, what do you call it

00:54:04   when it, the carrier, activate, activate the phone.

00:54:06   - Yeah, carrier activate.

00:54:07   - And AT&T took a nap, you know.

00:54:11   And no, you know, we laugh, but it's like,

00:54:14   it's not really like you could expect AT&T

00:54:16   to have built an activation system

00:54:18   that was ready for that type of volume.

00:54:22   But then, you know, got it activated

00:54:24   and it was so exhilarating and super exciting

00:54:26   and we were actually going on a trip to the shore

00:54:30   with Amy's family the next day.

00:54:33   And, you know, it was great to have the phone already

00:54:35   and I was excited to take it,

00:54:37   but I wanted to write up my thoughts

00:54:38   and I wrote my like 24 hour initial thoughts

00:54:41   on the original iPhone and it holds up very well,

00:54:44   except one thing that I didn't even mention

00:54:46   is the word camera.

00:54:48   (laughs)

00:54:48   Never, I didn't even mention it.

00:54:51   - Right, which today, if you wrote a review

00:54:54   of the iPhone today, it didn't mention the camera,

00:54:56   people would think you had lost your marble, right?

00:54:58   They're like, what, is this a review or is this a joke?

00:55:02   Right, like what are you talking about?

00:55:03   And which is pretty remarkable.

00:55:05   I mean, you expect, it's not just an expectation

00:55:08   that the iPhone's camera is decent.

00:55:10   The expectation is, is this the best camera

00:55:13   that you can possibly buy in a non-camera device,

00:55:18   let's call it that way, although, you know,

00:55:20   there's arguments to be made that what is a camera?

00:55:23   But is this the best camera you can buy or not?

00:55:25   Like that's where we are now.

00:55:27   It's not, is it decent, is it good, is it improved?

00:55:30   It's literally, is this the best in the world or not?

00:55:33   And the answer is usually leapfrogging from day to day.

00:55:36   Now I have my own arguments as everybody does

00:55:38   about other smartphone approaches and all of this stuff

00:55:41   and what they choose to do and realism versus, you know,

00:55:45   illustrative quality to photos and all of this stuff.

00:55:49   But really it is a matter of either it is

00:55:51   or it isn't the best camera in the world, period.

00:55:54   And that's crazy to think about when you realize the fact

00:55:57   that it does all this other stuff, right?

00:55:59   Like it's a phone, it's not a camera,

00:56:01   it does a bunch of other things.

00:56:03   But the only conversation we're willing to have about it

00:56:06   is is it the best in the world or not?

00:56:08   And that's pretty remarkable a few years on.

00:56:10   - And it's, the other thing with macro

00:56:13   that really impresses me, and I did mention this.

00:56:16   So the iPhone has long had a magnifier feature.

00:56:19   There's an app and I have it set for a triple click

00:56:22   on the home button where it just jumps to magnifier.

00:56:25   And you can use it as like a magnifying glass as you go.

00:56:28   But the magnifier only uses like the 1X lens

00:56:31   and digital zoom and it's very, very shaky.

00:56:34   And the thing I noticed is that if you just wanna see

00:56:37   something small, too small for your aging eyes

00:56:40   or even if you're young, just super small

00:56:42   that you just can't see, right?

00:56:43   Switching to macro mode on your phone,

00:56:45   even if you don't wanna take a picture of it,

00:56:47   if it's just like small print on something

00:56:49   and you just wanna read it or look close at it,

00:56:51   macro mode with the iPhone is way better

00:56:53   than the magnifier app now.

00:56:54   I can only presume that maybe one hand

00:56:57   wasn't talking to the other.

00:56:58   We all know how Apple is compartmentalized

00:57:00   and the magnifier team probably wasn't briefed

00:57:03   on the new iPhone hardware.

00:57:04   And I can only presume that the magnifier

00:57:06   is gonna be updated to take advantage of this.

00:57:08   But like, just like imagine something silly

00:57:13   like you're a parent and your kid thinks

00:57:15   they might have a splinter in their finger

00:57:17   and it's like, I don't know, I don't see anything,

00:57:20   but it's like if you really wanna know,

00:57:21   you can like use your camera in macro mode

00:57:24   and you'll find it, right?

00:57:25   Like you'll see it.

00:57:26   It is, and it's stabilized, right?

00:57:29   It's like there's, I don't know if it's the sensor shift,

00:57:31   I don't know if it's digital,

00:57:32   I don't know if they're doing it,

00:57:33   'cause obviously it's a crop, right?

00:57:35   You're getting this 1X crop,

00:57:39   but from the ultra wide 0.5X sensor.

00:57:42   So they have, for lack of a better word,

00:57:45   slop to move it around digitally.

00:57:47   - They call it overscan.

00:57:48   - Overscan, right? - Yes, exactly.

00:57:50   - Right, but it's way more stable than the magnifier is.

00:57:53   The magnifier, you kinda have to brace yourself

00:57:54   if you really wanna zoom in to the maximum degree.

00:57:57   If you really just wanna like look real closely

00:57:59   at a kid's finger and see if you can see a splinter in there

00:58:02   it's fantastic, and like it's a super power.

00:58:06   Like all of a sudden now you can like easily see

00:58:09   like the details of a fingerprint and see,

00:58:11   no, you don't have a splinter, go toughen up.

00:58:14   Or, oh yeah, you do, here, let me see if I can get this out.

00:58:18   - Yeah, it's gonna enable a lot of fun, cool stuff like that

00:58:22   that is not necessarily just macro photography.

00:58:24   And that's what happens every time Apple introduces

00:58:27   a new piece of hardware or significantly enhances

00:58:29   a previous one, is that there's tons of ways

00:58:32   to take advantage of that from a developer perspective.

00:58:34   We often see like game developers and people

00:58:37   that make interactive experiences take advantage of sensors

00:58:41   and things in unexpected ways.

00:58:43   But right now what you've got is a focusing range

00:58:47   from two millimeters to infinity, which is pretty awesome.

00:58:52   You know, when you think about the range

00:58:54   of sensing capabilities that you have,

00:58:56   'cause when you just think of the iPhone

00:58:58   as a bundle of sensors, it's a matter of what can it see,

00:59:01   what can it not see, what information can it

00:59:04   realistically interpret well, and at what resolution.

00:59:08   So in other words, what can it enable, right?

00:59:10   What features can it enable, what things can I do with it?

00:59:13   And that's what this does, it's a platform.

00:59:16   You know, every camera that Apple builds

00:59:18   and puts on their devices is more than just a camera

00:59:22   for taking photos, it is a platform.

00:59:24   And we've seen companies like Snap and Facebook

00:59:26   and other companies build out enormous businesses

00:59:30   and will continue to, you know, in significant,

00:59:33   to significant scale and significant size

00:59:36   with the camera as a platform.

00:59:38   It's not the phone that's the platform,

00:59:40   the phone houses, you know, the camera

00:59:42   and the software obviously has a play,

00:59:45   but the camera itself is the platform.

00:59:47   And that's pretty awesome.

00:59:48   So anytime, you know, they add camera stuff,

00:59:51   it's not just, oh, do you care about photography?

00:59:53   Then this is important to talk about and analyze.

00:59:56   It's, hey, you know, anybody that builds anything

01:00:00   can really take advantage of these

01:00:02   as a platform to build on.

01:00:04   And that's what's exciting about this stuff.

01:00:06   And the fact is, like, no matter how much I complain

01:00:07   about the image quality of the macro, it's still really good.

01:00:10   - Right.

01:00:11   - Like for the size that it is,

01:00:12   especially the central portion of the image,

01:00:15   quite sharp, very, you know, very accurate

01:00:19   in terms of, trust me, I've used a lot of macro lenses

01:00:22   and some of them are quite crappy

01:00:24   and they were built for cameras, you know?

01:00:26   And this is the equivalent, I think,

01:00:28   of a several hundred dollar macro lens.

01:00:30   I really do.

01:00:31   Like, you know, if you get into the 1200 to $2,000 range,

01:00:35   sure, the glass starts getting really good

01:00:37   and, you know, aberration calms down and all of that stuff.

01:00:41   But in terms of buying one off the shelf,

01:00:43   you'd have to spend several hundred dollars

01:00:44   to get this kind of capability

01:00:46   just for your regular four thirds camera or SLR.

01:00:49   So I think it's a really, really nice,

01:00:52   I hesitate to use the word

01:00:53   'cause, you know, people get all irritated about it,

01:00:54   but I really do think it is a nice gift, you know,

01:00:57   to people on the iPhone.

01:00:58   Like you buy the iPhone for all of the other reasons

01:01:01   and congratulations, you got this cool shit too.

01:01:03   In my mind, that's the way I look at it.

01:01:05   - It's very cool to me too

01:01:06   that it is a feature of all of the ultra wides.

01:01:10   It's not, I think, right or no, no, I'm wrong.

01:01:13   It's not, it's pro, it is pro only.

01:01:15   I take it back.

01:01:16   - Right. - No, it is pro only.

01:01:17   - Cinematic mode is a feature of all the cameras,

01:01:19   but the macro is pro only.

01:01:21   - No, but that does lead me to my point.

01:01:23   My point actually, it would be nice

01:01:24   and I guess eventually it probably will trickle down

01:01:27   because that's the way it goes,

01:01:28   but it actually does lead me to my point though,

01:01:30   which is that there's the battery life advantage

01:01:33   to the pro models and now significant camera,

01:01:39   camera differences.

01:01:42   So the entire existence of the telephoto lens

01:01:44   is a pro feature.

01:01:46   And now the ultra wide has this macro capability.

01:01:51   And to me, it is very, very nice that this,

01:01:55   the extra 200 bucks or so that you pay

01:01:59   to go from a 13 to a 13 pro is not just about

01:02:04   the superficial bling of the shiny stainless steel

01:02:08   instead of the matte aluminum.

01:02:11   There was a time when they first started separating these,

01:02:14   you know, to multiple new iPhones per year

01:02:17   based with the same A series chip.

01:02:18   So there's a certain technical underlying similarity,

01:02:21   but there was a sort of, look,

01:02:23   you're just paying for the bling of the steel

01:02:26   and the shininess and the better textures

01:02:28   and finish and OLED instead of LCD.

01:02:31   To me, it is easily $200 worth of camera alone

01:02:35   difference between the 13 and 13 pro.

01:02:38   And it's nice for both reasons.

01:02:41   If you care about having these camera features,

01:02:44   it's a no brainer to spend the 200 bucks.

01:02:46   And conversely, if you are, and there are,

01:02:49   'cause there's a billion iPhone users,

01:02:52   so there's like hundreds of millions of iPhone users

01:02:54   who qualify for any description.

01:02:56   But if you're one of the hundreds of millions

01:02:58   of iPhone users who really doesn't care about the camera,

01:03:02   you know, there's hundreds of millions of iPhone users

01:03:04   who barely use the camera.

01:03:05   Now you don't have to pay to it.

01:03:08   You can get like the latest and greatest A15,

01:03:11   all of these efficiency advantages from it.

01:03:14   And you don't have to spend the extra money

01:03:16   for a camera you're not gonna use.

01:03:18   I think that's actually, the product strategy

01:03:25   is working out to me in a way that makes decisions

01:03:29   very easy for people to make.

01:03:31   - Yes, this is a very well segmented lineup, right?

01:03:34   And that is a boon to consumers making decisions

01:03:39   based on budget.

01:03:41   And it is going to, as I was mentioning before,

01:03:44   I think it's going to really help sales

01:03:47   because one of the traditional problems,

01:03:50   and I think a lot of us were talking about this

01:03:52   a few years back, is that the iPhone left

01:03:55   a relatively large pricing umbrella, right?

01:03:57   And that's one of the reasons why they started

01:03:59   keeping old models around longer,

01:04:02   is to fill, underfill that pricing umbrella.

01:04:05   But what this does is it really bolsters

01:04:07   their ability to offer a wall of options for people

01:04:11   that leave very few openings for somebody to go like,

01:04:15   "Hey, you know, I would buy that, but it's so expensive,

01:04:18   "I'll just buy this Android instead."

01:04:20   'Cause people do still make those kinds of decisions,

01:04:23   regardless of what you want to talk about with lock-in,

01:04:25   you know, they do still make those decisions.

01:04:27   Less and less, you know, obviously over time,

01:04:30   but I think that's still a risk.

01:04:31   And so now what they're able to offer

01:04:33   is a very solid wall of options

01:04:34   with very little umbrella to creep under

01:04:37   and very few gaps to shoot through

01:04:40   because people are able to make a call and say,

01:04:41   "Look, I get this amazing, you know,

01:04:44   "these features that I really want,

01:04:46   "and this sounds awesome.

01:04:47   "I would really love to play around with feature X

01:04:49   "or feature Y, and I can spend less now

01:04:52   "because I don't care about feature X or feature Z."

01:04:55   - To me, the big hole in the pricing,

01:04:57   and I know the rumors say that this,

01:05:00   what I'm about to say is coming next year, who knows?

01:05:02   I don't want to spend time on rumors of iPhone 14,

01:05:05   but the big hole in the lineup would be,

01:05:07   I want a ginormous 6.7-inch phone,

01:05:11   but I don't want to spend $1,100.

01:05:13   I want to spend $600 or $700 or 800, you know.

01:05:18   There is no non-pro max-sized phone,

01:05:22   and supposedly that's coming next year

01:05:24   at the expense of dropping the mini from the lineup,

01:05:27   and there's also no mini-pro,

01:05:29   but I feel like the mini-pro is even more,

01:05:33   it's like a niche within a niche.

01:05:35   The one that would, to me, would sell like hotcakes

01:05:38   would be the giant-sized iPhone, not pro,

01:05:42   but you kind of would see why they don't have it

01:05:46   because if you really want that size

01:05:49   and you have to start at $1,100, well, you know, there it is,

01:05:52   but I can also see why they're adding it.

01:05:54   I know what I was confused by.

01:05:55   I knew there was one more very cool feature

01:05:58   that I think they could have made pro only but didn't,

01:06:03   and it's photo styles.

01:06:04   That's what I was thinking of when I was thinking of macro.

01:06:07   Macro is driven by hardware,

01:06:09   then hardware is literally only in the pro.

01:06:12   Photo styles, though, is a neat feature,

01:06:15   and I've been playing with that more in the last week, too,

01:06:19   and I'm curious what you think about that,

01:06:21   and I'm curious what your settings are for it.

01:06:24   - Yeah, so you're talking about

01:06:27   why it's not available on the non-pro?

01:06:29   - No, photo styles is on the non-pro.

01:06:32   - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah.

01:06:33   This is the feature that Apple went out of its way

01:06:37   to say this is not a filter.

01:06:39   What it is, I think a good layperson's description,

01:06:42   and I'm sort of riffing on John Siracusa's description

01:06:44   from ATP last week, but basically,

01:06:47   everybody knows that the different camera makers

01:06:49   have different sort of looks, right?

01:06:51   There's the Apple look to photo development,

01:06:54   and iPhone cameras all sort of, without any filtering,

01:06:58   sort of have a certain color look,

01:07:01   and Samsungs are more vibrant,

01:07:04   and pixels are different in other ways.

01:07:08   Like, you take the same two,

01:07:09   and you can say these are, like,

01:07:10   the Pixel and the iPhone are both excellent cameras,

01:07:13   and the Samsung Galaxy latest is also an excellent camera,

01:07:16   and set them all up in the same scene with the same sunlight,

01:07:19   and you kinda get, you know, you get different greens,

01:07:21   and you get different skin tones, and et cetera,

01:07:23   and so forth, and it's not filters.

01:07:26   It's just a way of taking, you know, the,

01:07:29   the inherent, like, if you just took the RAW,

01:07:32   and if you do shoot RAW using Halite or something,

01:07:34   you see that the image off these sensors

01:07:36   is awful and unusable and needs to be post-processed.

01:07:41   - Yes, all images off of smartphones are post-processed.

01:07:44   Big, big deal, right?

01:07:45   There's just no way to get that kind of image

01:07:48   without a lot of work behind the scenes

01:07:51   to correct lens problems, right?

01:07:54   To correct inherent issues in the optics,

01:07:57   and then also now, especially with iPhones,

01:07:59   to blend images, pixels, whatever you wanna call it,

01:08:04   from several cameras and several exposures together

01:08:07   to rectify problems in the sensor, right?

01:08:11   So really, all this post-processing is improving the quality

01:08:15   of the image by correcting issues with lens and sensor,

01:08:18   right? - Yeah.

01:08:19   - Like, that's really what it boils down to,

01:08:20   'cause the sensor's just tiny, and so is the lens,

01:08:22   and that introduces a lot of image artifacts,

01:08:25   and all of the post-processing is there

01:08:27   to correct those artifacts. - Right.

01:08:29   - So when you do post-process, I think the,

01:08:33   there's two analogies that are apt here.

01:08:36   One is film, right?

01:08:38   Like, what kind of film were you going to choose

01:08:39   to shoot with your film camera?

01:08:41   And that's really what photo styles is about,

01:08:44   photographic styles.

01:08:45   And then another one is sort of shooting quality,

01:08:47   and that's a little bit harder, and in all reality,

01:08:51   like digital cameras from Nikon and Canon

01:08:56   and Minolta early on, they all had this sort of

01:08:59   native approach to how they color-corrected

01:09:02   and color-balanced their sensors,

01:09:05   and for a while, it's a little different now,

01:09:07   because I think everybody's gotten so good at it,

01:09:09   but for a while, you could absolutely tell

01:09:11   what kind of body you were shooting,

01:09:13   just by looking at the processing, JPEG processing,

01:09:16   that one camera would do or another would do.

01:09:18   You could tell, like, oh, look,

01:09:19   it's slightly more contrasty,

01:09:21   so that's like Nikon's approach right now,

01:09:23   or it's slightly punchier in saturation,

01:09:25   especially in the red, so that's Canon's approach right now.

01:09:28   This was a thing you could tell early on.

01:09:30   Nowadays, it's much more sophisticated,

01:09:33   as everybody's gotten better at this,

01:09:35   but you could tell that.

01:09:36   So there's kind of two things going on,

01:09:38   and one, that underlying processing,

01:09:41   just provides a basic image to somebody

01:09:44   shooting a picture in the JPEG, is a choice.

01:09:47   That's a decision that the camera teams

01:09:50   at these companies make, and it is an editorial call.

01:09:54   You are sort of saying,

01:09:55   this is how we want our pictures to look,

01:09:57   and as you said, if you shoot Halide or some other camera

01:10:00   where you can pull a raw image,

01:10:03   you could see what the no choices means, right?

01:10:06   If you make no choices, you get this really rough image.

01:10:10   So you have to make some decisions

01:10:12   about the way your images look,

01:10:14   and so each company, whether it be Samsung or Apple

01:10:17   or Google or whoever, makes a decision

01:10:21   about the way their images are going to look,

01:10:23   and they make that decision based on a variety of factors,

01:10:26   but the large portion of those factors

01:10:28   is what do we think customers are gonna like, right?

01:10:30   What do we think people are going to like,

01:10:32   and how should these images look to make them the most happy

01:10:35   about their pictures when they use this phone?

01:10:38   And so Apple's decision making on that front

01:10:40   has always been to hew towards the neutral,

01:10:44   so more of a reality based take

01:10:47   versus a lot of other companies that say,

01:10:49   hey, we know reality exists,

01:10:51   but our customers tend to like images that are punchier,

01:10:55   both in saturation and in contrast.

01:10:58   So you'll find the images from companies like Samsung

01:11:01   or Google or other companies,

01:11:03   they have made a different editorial call.

01:11:06   I am not here to pass judgment

01:11:08   on any of those editorial calls.

01:11:09   I have my own preferences, as I'm sure other people do,

01:11:12   and that's okay, but Apple's call has always been neutral,

01:11:16   neutral, neutral.

01:11:17   That's their rallying cry.

01:11:19   They want things to look naturalistic and neutral

01:11:22   as much as possible versus, say,

01:11:25   pleasing on a digital screen versus pleasing in print.

01:11:28   Like there's so many calls you could make, right?

01:11:31   And that is, like that's a huge call they've had to make.

01:11:34   And so photographic styles is their concession

01:11:38   to people that do not like Apple's choices.

01:11:42   And the difference between them and a filter

01:11:46   is that they are applied in situ

01:11:48   as the people are taking the pictures

01:11:50   and woven in to the files that'll allow the phone

01:11:54   to render those images,

01:11:56   which means that you can alter them afterwards,

01:11:59   but they are part of the processing pipeline,

01:12:02   allowing you to get a natural-looking image

01:12:04   according to your tastes without applying a filter

01:12:08   to the already rendered pixels.

01:12:10   And that creates a situation

01:12:12   where you have the best possible image quality

01:12:15   while adding customization.

01:12:18   And this would be in film photography

01:12:20   akin to choosing your own roll of film

01:12:22   or style of film that you wanted.

01:12:25   - What a great description.

01:12:26   Right now, when you go to adjust these,

01:12:28   they have a couple of presets that you can choose from.

01:12:31   I think it's like rich contrast,

01:12:35   contrast vibrant, warm and cool,

01:12:39   and then you can take any of them.

01:12:41   Like, so for example, warm,

01:12:43   and there's only two settings with each one.

01:12:45   One they call tone,

01:12:47   which I think is mostly about contrast.

01:12:49   And then there's warmth, which I think most people,

01:12:52   even casual photographers kind of know it's, you know,

01:12:54   to go redder and oranger and warmer or bluer and cooler.

01:12:59   Like warm is zero tone, 50 warmth,

01:13:04   but that's the only two factors.

01:13:06   There's two factors and you can adjust them if you want.

01:13:08   So you can take one of these,

01:13:10   and then of course there's standard,

01:13:12   which is just, this is, you know,

01:13:14   the regular Apple pipeline that we've come to know

01:13:17   and love or not love.

01:13:20   So you can take any of these and adjust them.

01:13:22   So you could take contrast,

01:13:23   which I think is like negative 50 tones or a warmth.

01:13:26   And I turned it up a little bit more to,

01:13:29   that's the one I've been shooting with,

01:13:30   where I've taken my tone to negative 65

01:13:33   and my warmth is still at zero.

01:13:34   I'm curious if you've adjusted yours

01:13:38   or are you still shooting standard or what are you shooting?

01:13:41   - Yeah, I mean, the fact is I kind of like Apple's

01:13:44   general tone.

01:13:46   I like the neutral tone.

01:13:47   So I don't know if I'm going to do one.

01:13:49   I haven't done a personal one yet, right?

01:13:52   So I haven't like developed my own yet for sure.

01:13:54   I've been shooting everything, mostly on neutral.

01:13:57   I think that the boosted contrast,

01:13:59   which I believe is vibrant.

01:14:01   - Yeah, no, I think that's--

01:14:03   - No, they have an increased contrast one.

01:14:05   I always forget what the names are.

01:14:06   - That's the one I've done.

01:14:08   That's, I forget what they call it though.

01:14:11   I'll reset, reset to, oh, they call it rich contrast.

01:14:14   Okay.

01:14:15   - Rich contrast.

01:14:15   Okay, so the rich contrast one is very pleasing,

01:14:18   obviously in casual, you know, look,

01:14:20   but I think it blocks up the blacks a little too much, right?

01:14:25   It clips a little too much of the black for my tastes.

01:14:27   And I know why it's there and why I think a lot of people

01:14:30   are going to use it by default,

01:14:31   because that it is punchier and more contrast

01:14:34   is inherently more pleasing to the human eye.

01:14:36   It really is.

01:14:37   And so I think that that will be a very popular setting,

01:14:40   but I also like the fact that they do have

01:14:43   the negative 100 to positive 100 scale there,

01:14:47   because that allows people in the slider,

01:14:51   because it allows people to kind of come up

01:14:53   with their own style and then share it.

01:14:55   You can just screenshot it and share it with somebody else.

01:14:57   It'd be like, try this.

01:14:58   Like, this is mine.

01:14:59   You know, this is what I really like.

01:15:00   And somebody's like, oh, I like that.

01:15:01   And it's kind of like, you know, Lightroom's presets, right?

01:15:06   And people have made entire businesses

01:15:09   off of developing Lightroom presets

01:15:11   that they distribute and sell to people.

01:15:14   And people love them.

01:15:15   You know, they give you a kind of like starting point

01:15:18   or a look that you can export.

01:15:21   And I think that having those numbers on there

01:15:22   is really cool, because it lets people set their own,

01:15:25   make their own choices, and then tell somebody,

01:15:28   oh, try this one.

01:15:29   The one thing I wish they had was a specific custom option,

01:15:34   which they don't have right now.

01:15:35   It's just cool, warm, vibrant, rich, contrast, and standard.

01:15:39   They should be like a user one, you know, by default.

01:15:41   - Well, you can adjust them though.

01:15:42   - So right now you have to change one of them.

01:15:43   - Yeah, yeah.

01:15:43   - No, no, you can't change any of them.

01:15:45   - Right. - Which is great,

01:15:46   but you can't like sort of save one as your own

01:15:48   and leave the other ones alone.

01:15:49   - I can't make like a--

01:15:50   - You have to pick one you don't like

01:15:52   and then adjust it. - Right.

01:15:52   And then you lose their standard,

01:15:55   although they have a little reset button

01:15:56   that you can double tap to go back.

01:15:59   - It's not the end of the world.

01:16:00   You can reset it.

01:16:01   And I just think that if you're gonna offer

01:16:03   the ability to build user settings in,

01:16:06   you should add a user option,

01:16:08   which I would guess would come at some point.

01:16:11   It's just a matter of how long it's gonna take.

01:16:13   But I think that that is the one little missing thing.

01:16:16   But I love the fact that you can now,

01:16:18   somebody who say comes from the Samsung world,

01:16:21   like comes from an Android phone

01:16:23   and really loves their take on it.

01:16:26   Now you can get much closer to that

01:16:27   and you don't have to do post-processing.

01:16:29   - Right.

01:16:30   - You can get it right in the image pipeline,

01:16:32   which means that when you do export that JPEG,

01:16:34   and most people don't know this,

01:16:35   but anytime you share an image anywhere outside of iOS,

01:16:39   it renders that image, right?

01:16:41   That's what it does.

01:16:42   It applies any color adjustments and things

01:16:44   that you have set to it,

01:16:46   and then renders it for the outside world,

01:16:48   outside of Apple's ecosystem.

01:16:50   And if you are able to set up something

01:16:54   that feels more comfortable and pleasing to you,

01:16:56   why not, right?

01:16:58   Like, you know, the editorial decision is great

01:17:00   and I get it.

01:17:01   And I understand why Apple has leaned into that for so long,

01:17:03   'cause they wanna make sure to, you know,

01:17:05   kind of present as close to what they can determine

01:17:08   as the truth to people for their images.

01:17:11   But I don't think there's any harm in allowing people

01:17:13   to develop and own their own photographic styles,

01:17:16   and I'm glad it exists now.

01:17:17   It's cool.

01:17:18   - Yeah.

01:17:19   Austin Mann's custom settings.

01:17:21   Now, he admits, like, for his, like, this super review

01:17:23   on the Tanzanian thing, he shoots RAW with Halide

01:17:26   and then develops them and, you know,

01:17:28   'cause he's a pro and he's using the iPhone

01:17:30   as a pro camera.

01:17:31   But he also acknowledges that as a regular person,

01:17:35   sometimes he just takes his phone out and shoots something

01:17:37   and he just wants it, you know, he'll just shoot JPEG.

01:17:41   So his style, his custom style, if you wanted to name,

01:17:44   if you could save a named Austin Mann photographic style,

01:17:48   it would be negative 30 tone.

01:17:50   And even though it's negative,

01:17:51   that actually means a little bit more contrasty

01:17:54   and plus 15 warmth.

01:17:56   That's the Austin Mann style.

01:17:58   And so I'm gonna switch mine to that.

01:18:00   I agree you should be able to save one,

01:18:02   even if it was just one spot, right?

01:18:04   Like, if it was just one called custom.

01:18:06   - Yeah, just one slot, right.

01:18:08   And eventually it should go beyond that,

01:18:11   they should be able to export them, share them.

01:18:12   - Yeah, yeah, and then you could import them.

01:18:14   The thing that would be cool, and I think,

01:18:16   I can't help but believe, I don't wanna do it myself

01:18:18   'cause I don't wanna buy these phones,

01:18:20   but it'd be cool, like, let's say,

01:18:21   like everybody's much anticipating

01:18:23   sometime in the next few weeks,

01:18:24   Google's gonna come out with the Pixel 6.

01:18:27   And, you know, a lot of people love the Pixel look

01:18:31   and the Pixel's, you know, almost everybody agrees

01:18:34   that the very best thing about Google's Pixel phones,

01:18:37   number one is that they're quote unquote pure Android,

01:18:40   and number two, people love the cameras.

01:18:42   They do shoot excellent, excellent phone, at least still,

01:18:46   and, you know, maybe the video's been lagging

01:18:48   in recent years, we'll see if they catch up.

01:18:49   But anyway, let's say you love the Pixel look,

01:18:52   could somebody figure out, like,

01:18:54   what should you set your iPhone to

01:18:56   to get a Pixel look out of your iPhone

01:18:59   in terms of how it processes the sensor image?

01:19:02   I think that sort of thing is,

01:19:03   somebody's gotta run a, set up a website

01:19:05   that publishes numbers like that.

01:19:08   I think it'd be pretty cool.

01:19:09   - Right, yeah.

01:19:10   Four options are good, you know.

01:19:12   - Yeah, and also--

01:19:13   - If you're not gonna have any, go neutral.

01:19:16   That's my opinion, but once you're gonna have one,

01:19:18   that's great.

01:19:19   - And it's, one of the other cool things about it

01:19:21   is if you don't give two shits about any of this,

01:19:23   and this whole last 10 minutes of the show is like,

01:19:26   I don't care about that, guess what?

01:19:28   You don't have to worry about it.

01:19:28   It's just gonna shoot standard iPhone processing,

01:19:31   which, you know, iPhone is generally pretty well regarded

01:19:34   as a phone camera.

01:19:35   You don't have to do a damn thing,

01:19:37   and it'll never get in your way,

01:19:39   and you never have to pick it, and it doesn't, you know.

01:19:41   - Yeah, it's the equivalent of the,

01:19:43   I'm feeling lucky button on Google.

01:19:46   You know, it's just, give me some results.

01:19:49   And I think it's good.

01:19:50   You know, it's important to have that,

01:19:52   and the fact of the matter is,

01:19:53   the team has a proven track record

01:19:55   of producing pretty great images,

01:19:57   so by default, you're getting a great image,

01:20:00   and then by not default,

01:20:02   by if somebody wants to play with it or more,

01:20:04   play around with it more,

01:20:05   now you're offered more options

01:20:07   in getting the kind of image that really appeals to you

01:20:09   and makes you excited.

01:20:10   - All right, let me thank our third

01:20:11   and final sponsor of the show.

01:20:12   It's our good friends at LinkedIn.

01:20:14   Today, many small business owners are busier than ever.

01:20:17   Time spent searching for and interviewing candidates

01:20:20   can take time away from managing and growing a business.

01:20:24   If you've ever had to hire anybody, you know,

01:20:26   it is one of those things that is so much more

01:20:29   time consuming than you ever thought,

01:20:32   even if you went into it thinking

01:20:33   it was gonna be time consuming.

01:20:34   That's why LinkedIn Jobs has made it easier

01:20:37   to get the candidates worth interviewing faster,

01:20:41   and it's free.

01:20:43   You can create a free job post in minutes

01:20:46   on LinkedIn Jobs to reach your network and beyond

01:20:49   to the world's largest professional network

01:20:51   of over 770 million people.

01:20:54   That is correct.

01:20:56   The LinkedIn Jobs network reaches 770 million people.

01:21:00   Focus on candidates with the skills and experience

01:21:03   you need for your positions.

01:21:05   You can use screening questions to get your role

01:21:07   in front of only the most qualified people.

01:21:10   Then use the simple tools on LinkedIn Jobs

01:21:12   to quickly filter and prioritize

01:21:14   who you'd like to interview and hire.

01:21:16   LinkedIn Jobs helps you find the candidates

01:21:19   worth interviewing faster.

01:21:21   Did you know that every week,

01:21:22   440 million job seekers visit LinkedIn?

01:21:26   Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com/talk, T-A-L-K.

01:21:31   That's LinkedIn.com/talk.

01:21:35   Post your job for free.

01:21:36   Terms and conditions apply.

01:21:38   Last but not least for the show is,

01:21:42   and maybe last and most interesting, cinematic mode video,

01:21:47   which I told, I don't think I was dismissive

01:21:53   when I called it a gift.

01:21:55   My summary of it on my review was,

01:21:57   look, it's a gimmick, but I don't mean that pejoratively.

01:22:00   Gimmicks can be good.

01:22:02   And then I saw your stuff and I saw some other stuff

01:22:07   and I started thinking, hmm, maybe it's not even a gimmick.

01:22:13   It is weird and it's got some technical glitches,

01:22:17   but I don't know, I'm starting to think this is useful.

01:22:22   And then I saw Andre Laro's short film, "Float,"

01:22:27   which I linked on "Daring Fireball" last week,

01:22:30   which is just a few minutes long.

01:22:33   And it's his directorial debut.

01:22:36   I think he was at Adobe for a while.

01:22:38   He obviously knows how to shoot photos,

01:22:39   but if you're listening to this,

01:22:42   I hope that you saw my post on "Daring Fireball"

01:22:44   and watched his movie, which he shot in cinematic mode.

01:22:49   And even if you go into it thinking, okay,

01:22:53   Gruber says this is a good movie to watch

01:22:55   to see cinematic mode in action,

01:22:57   10 seconds in, you will forget about looking for anything

01:23:02   like fringes or focus lengths or anything,

01:23:05   and you'll just be absorbed.

01:23:06   And then a minute in, you're gonna be holding back tears

01:23:09   and choking up and your heart is gonna be pounding

01:23:13   in your chest and that's art, right?

01:23:15   That's why you make movies.

01:23:17   And then you're at the end and you're like,

01:23:19   oh wait, that was, let me go back and start looking

01:23:21   at the cinematic mode.

01:23:22   And it's like, and then all of a sudden

01:23:23   you're watching it again.

01:23:24   And it's like, hey, this is no gimmick.

01:23:26   This shit's for real.

01:23:28   I don't know, that blew me away.

01:23:30   I'm curious, and you had a whole piece,

01:23:34   you had a whole feature, you had an interview

01:23:36   with Kayan Drance and Johnny,

01:23:38   I already know his first name, Johnny--

01:23:41   - Manzari. - Manzari from Apple.

01:23:43   He's a user interface designer, works on camera stuff.

01:23:47   And I thought it was a terrific interview.

01:23:50   - I'm curious, post-interview, what your thoughts are.

01:23:53   Are pre and post-interview and what are your thoughts

01:23:57   when you first saw cinematic mode

01:23:59   and what are your thoughts now, one week post-review?

01:24:02   - Yeah, so obviously you saw the presentation

01:24:05   and I watched it, like all of us,

01:24:08   and we're like, oh, look at that.

01:24:09   It's like you're in the flow and trying to cover everything

01:24:13   and type about it and give people observations.

01:24:16   And so it's like, oh, cool, cool.

01:24:17   And you just soon get to really absorb it all that deeply.

01:24:22   It definitely was, their demo film cracked me up

01:24:25   because it was super rack-focus heavy.

01:24:27   Obviously they're showing off the feature,

01:24:29   so you can't fault them for that.

01:24:30   But somebody made a joke on Twitter, which I laughed about,

01:24:33   and it was like, I don't know, Apple demonstrates

01:24:36   how to make people sick of rack-focus or something.

01:24:38   But it's, which is funny.

01:24:41   But they kinda show it off, right?

01:24:43   So it's a narrative told essentially all in focus changes,

01:24:47   which in some ways is cool.

01:24:49   And honestly, some directors work that way, right?

01:24:52   Some directors work with fixed frame

01:24:55   and focal plane changes, hopefully not to excess,

01:24:59   but honestly as a really big pillar

01:25:02   of their storytelling modes, right?

01:25:05   Robert Altman, Steven Spielberg,

01:25:07   there are a handful of directors

01:25:09   that just use the focal plane

01:25:13   in a motive, directorial, narrative driving tool.

01:25:18   And all directors, for the most part,

01:25:20   use it to some degree.

01:25:21   Now I will say that like for a long time and for a while,

01:25:25   this is sort of subtext to this whole conversation

01:25:28   about adding rack-focus and synthetic bokeh

01:25:31   and all of this stuff to digital camera or to an iPhone.

01:25:35   When the switch to digital happened,

01:25:38   one of the first things to go,

01:25:40   to one of the first storytelling tools

01:25:42   that everyone lost was bokeh, right?

01:25:46   Was background blur, selective focus,

01:25:49   whatever you wanna call it,

01:25:51   slim field of focus, et cetera.

01:25:54   It was one of the first tools to go

01:25:55   specifically because digital cameras,

01:25:59   most of the early cameras that were used by filmmakers,

01:26:04   DVC cameras and those of that kind,

01:26:07   they actually did not take standard lenses, right?

01:26:09   They used integrated lenses.

01:26:11   And I mean, especially in the indie world, right?

01:26:13   Obviously there are a lot of high-end shooters

01:26:15   that still had access to detachable cameras

01:26:18   and all this stuff or detachable lenses.

01:26:20   But a lot of the run and gun filmmakers

01:26:22   and people who came up with the world,

01:26:24   the Aronofskis of the world

01:26:26   and people that were playing around with digital early,

01:26:29   Steven Soderbergh, et cetera,

01:26:31   the footage that they shot and the films that they shot

01:26:35   had this sort of inherent flatness,

01:26:37   both of tone and of focus because of the lens size

01:26:41   and the distance away from the CCD that the lens rested,

01:26:45   it inherently created this deep,

01:26:47   hyper deep field of focus.

01:26:49   And they utilized it as a tool, right?

01:26:50   As sort of the opposite kind of tool about,

01:26:53   you know, how to direct a person's eye through the frame

01:26:56   without focus, like, you know,

01:26:58   now they had to change their language, right?

01:27:00   And learn new languages.

01:27:01   And this was sort of part of the transition from film

01:27:04   and shooting on film and shooting analog

01:27:08   to shooting digital, right?

01:27:09   Was this era where there was a lot of that going on.

01:27:12   And then eventually, of course, the cameras caught up

01:27:16   and that tool was added back to their tool bag.

01:27:19   But what you end up with with an iPhone

01:27:21   is the absolute pinnacle of that kind of camera.

01:27:25   It's like to the extreme because the lens is so small

01:27:29   and it's so close to the plane of the sensor

01:27:32   that it inherently has an insanely deep field of focus.

01:27:37   You can see this,

01:27:38   like when you just shoot a regular picture,

01:27:40   the reason that you can select a focus point deeper

01:27:42   into the image and not with cinematic mode

01:27:45   is because inherently most of the field that you see

01:27:48   in your lens is in focus, almost all of it.

01:27:50   And that's just part of the physics

01:27:53   of the way these lenses work.

01:27:54   So you've got that whole context going in

01:27:57   that previously to this feature being launched,

01:28:01   you have pretty much no options or alternatives

01:28:04   besides trying to use the telephoto

01:28:06   and shooting as close as possible, right?

01:28:08   To introduce natural bokeh to the lens.

01:28:12   You could use some post-processing or whatever,

01:28:15   but inherently most of the films,

01:28:18   if you're trying to shoot a film that were shot on iPhone,

01:28:20   had inherently hyper deep focus

01:28:23   because of the physics of the lens.

01:28:24   So now you go and say, all right,

01:28:27   like how are we gonna fix this?

01:28:29   Or how are we gonna introduce the language of film

01:28:33   back into the iPhone in a way that can reward people,

01:28:37   both that are really good at this stuff

01:28:39   and people that may not even know the language

01:28:42   or how to speak the language, but want to, right?

01:28:45   They know, they've grown up watching films

01:28:47   and watching movies and they would love a more movie-like

01:28:50   look to their images.

01:28:52   They just have no idea how to get from zero to one.

01:28:54   And that's the problem that they started with.

01:28:56   Not, oh, we need a cinematic mode on the iPhone,

01:29:00   how do we build it?

01:29:01   It's how do we take that language of cinema

01:29:05   that's hundreds of years old and make it accessible

01:29:09   to almost anybody that was able to pick up this camera

01:29:12   and spend a few minutes learning how to use this feature.

01:29:15   And that I think was, you know,

01:29:17   is the thing Apple does so well.

01:29:18   They take a really complex, hard problem,

01:29:21   and then sort of put it through the intestinal tract

01:29:23   of their development process and small team's

01:29:26   development process and come out the other side,

01:29:29   hopefully with something that's actually useful.

01:29:32   - It's sort of, and the way they've done it

01:29:34   is sort of taking the weakness,

01:29:38   which is that you inherently have this very deep field

01:29:43   of focus with video shooting on the iPhone,

01:29:46   and weakness in terms of if you want a depth of field

01:29:50   bokeh effect and turning it into a strength.

01:29:53   - Right, yeah.

01:29:54   - By doing it all computationally,

01:29:58   but having that depth there in the footage that you shot

01:30:03   and using computational photography

01:30:05   to artificially compute the blurring

01:30:09   of either the foreground or the background.

01:30:11   But because that depth of focus is there,

01:30:13   you can change it all in post.

01:30:15   And so if the wrong thing happens

01:30:17   and you were counting on the machine language driven AI,

01:30:23   to notice that your actors turn their head

01:30:28   to look at another actor and wanted the focus to shift

01:30:31   from the first actor to the second,

01:30:35   and it didn't happen or it didn't happen

01:30:36   when you wanted it to, you just tweak it in post

01:30:40   and it's there and it's not, you didn't lose anything.

01:30:43   - I'm very impressed by it.

01:30:45   And I know it's so much, the analogies to portrait mode,

01:30:48   stills and iPhone are very similar,

01:30:50   whereas it has some problems getting hair

01:30:54   and the edges of hair and the frame of somebody's glasses,

01:30:59   if they're at, like at a 45 degree angle

01:31:03   where the outer frame of the far lens of their glasses

01:31:07   is not really part of their face.

01:31:09   It's like the machine language is looking for a face.

01:31:12   And so the glasses can sometimes get blurred out.

01:31:14   It's the same exact problems,

01:31:16   but that's gotten a lot better with portrait mode

01:31:19   year after year, it's that typical Apple incrementalism

01:31:23   where they just keep grinding away at this problem

01:31:26   and they know the problems better than anybody.

01:31:30   And it's, you know, the results can be really,

01:31:34   really impressive though.

01:31:35   I think this is really cool.

01:31:36   And again, if you don't care about it,

01:31:38   you don't have to shoot it.

01:31:39   This one actually is a dedicated mode, unlike macro.

01:31:42   So you're never gonna accidentally end up

01:31:45   with the cinematic mode footage if you didn't want it,

01:31:48   but even if that happens, you can just turn it off.

01:31:52   You can just take the whole clip and you're like,

01:31:54   ah, crap, this focus stuff is not appropriate

01:31:57   for this thing I shot at all.

01:31:59   You can just go in and edit it and turn off cinematic mode

01:32:02   and you just get the non cinematic mode version of the video

01:32:07   with everything in focus as you would expect.

01:32:10   So you've lost nothing, right?

01:32:12   It's not like, ah, I blew my chance at my kids' home run

01:32:16   in the little league game because I was a dope shooting

01:32:19   cinematic mode.

01:32:20   - Yeah, trying to get this focus right, yeah.

01:32:22   - Right, right. - Exactly.

01:32:23   - And the kid gets to first base and he's all blurry

01:32:26   and I wanted to, you know, they just turn it off.

01:32:28   You can just turn it off and you're fine.

01:32:30   - Every once in a while, yeah, every once in a while

01:32:32   you can hit the limits of the focusing range, right?

01:32:35   So like if you're shooting something extremely close

01:32:37   and the thing you wanna focus on is extremely far away

01:32:40   and your camera is physically very close

01:32:42   to the foreground object,

01:32:43   the background can still be out of focus, right?

01:32:45   So it's not completely foolproof,

01:32:47   but in most casual shooting situations,

01:32:50   people are gonna have a ton of options

01:32:52   and what to choose and what to pick from.

01:32:54   And Apple did a ton of work and will continue to do more

01:32:57   with sort of automatically directing it.

01:32:59   It's actually crazy how much stuff is going on there

01:33:01   and I think most people don't realize exactly

01:33:03   how much is happening,

01:33:04   especially the people who are poo pooing it

01:33:06   'cause yes, the background segmentation

01:33:09   still has its weaknesses and it still has a general loss

01:33:15   of resolution or definition around the edges,

01:33:18   as you mentioned here, especially the background is complex.

01:33:21   You know, chain link fences or trees

01:33:23   or whatever the case may be, right?

01:33:24   Like there are instances where it just falls over

01:33:27   and some people don't like it

01:33:29   and some people it just, oh, it irritates me to know it.

01:33:31   Great, fine, right?

01:33:33   But for a lot of people,

01:33:35   I think it's actually going to be really cool and fun

01:33:38   in the near term and then long-term

01:33:41   as it gets better and better,

01:33:43   it's actually gonna become a real tool, right?

01:33:45   Like there's this big phrase in Silicon Valley

01:33:48   like that big changes or big inventions often begin

01:33:53   being perceived as toys, right?

01:33:55   Like, oh, look at this toy, right?

01:33:56   And then it's like, no, it's not a toy now.

01:33:59   Like there's a billion dollar business on the top of it.

01:34:02   - Personal computers in general were toys.

01:34:04   Then they became accepted and then the Macintosh came out

01:34:08   and the graphical user interface was a toy

01:34:10   because the serious ones all had a command line.

01:34:13   - Yeah, exactly, exactly.

01:34:15   Where's my DOS?

01:34:16   Yeah, exactly, that's it.

01:34:17   And I think that's what the state

01:34:19   that this is in at the moment.

01:34:20   It's not quite a toy.

01:34:21   I mean, it's hard to call it a toy when it actually,

01:34:24   I think turns out pretty great results in a lot of instances

01:34:27   and there's so much computational power behind it

01:34:31   but I can understand it being perceived as a gimmick or toy

01:34:35   in its current state, I get that, right?

01:34:38   But it's not.

01:34:40   It is actually much more and it may take some time

01:34:43   for it to realize that potential

01:34:45   and it certainly is not perfect by any means

01:34:48   but it's far more than a throwaway BS thing

01:34:51   that doesn't work.

01:34:52   And frankly, when I was reading some of the other reviews

01:34:55   of this thing, of the feature or people that integrated

01:34:58   into their reviews, my big takeaway was that everybody

01:35:01   was reviewing it wrong and I don't wanna call anybody out

01:35:04   individually 'cause I think people are great

01:35:06   and everybody's gotta focus and everybody, you know,

01:35:08   I respect people's opinions based on intelligent

01:35:10   understanding and the fact of the matter is,

01:35:13   it's absolutely viable to look at the results

01:35:17   from shooting it in testing, very close testing

01:35:21   of a particular object or trying to isolate subjects,

01:35:24   trying to break down the various things that are happening

01:35:26   from synthetic bokeh to gaze detection and following

01:35:30   to automatic tracking to focus tracking

01:35:33   which are two different things.

01:35:35   It's fair to break all those down and like test each one

01:35:38   of them individually but the fact of the matter is,

01:35:41   there's no, unlike many other tests,

01:35:44   there really is no baseline to test from.

01:35:48   Like this is brand new.

01:35:50   It is not what you were, it emulates other things

01:35:55   but this is a brand new feature, right?

01:35:57   It's a brand new thing that this bundle of things

01:36:00   that they've created is brand new.

01:36:02   And so I think testing it in the same kind of test bed

01:36:06   or lab focused environment to try and say,

01:36:09   does this thing work the way they say it does?

01:36:11   Oh, look at the segmentation falls over here and there

01:36:14   and it just sucks, it doesn't really work at night,

01:36:16   it doesn't work this way or that way or the other thing,

01:36:19   absolutely 100% valid, viable but I feel misses the point

01:36:24   so badly as to actually misrepresent the feature entirely.

01:36:27   You end up in a situation where though all of

01:36:31   the negative bits actually end up to a larger

01:36:35   negative value than the feature actually deserves, right?

01:36:39   So like while acknowledging that it has flaws

01:36:41   and it is by no means perfect and Apple will be the first

01:36:44   to admit that if you can get them to do it on the record,

01:36:47   which good luck but the team knows, right?

01:36:50   Like they know that they're working towards something

01:36:53   but the fact of the matter is,

01:36:54   it's actually really fucking cool right now

01:36:56   and it works at night, sorry, I tried it, it works fine,

01:36:59   I don't know what people are doing there

01:37:00   that not make it work.

01:37:01   It also works in many situations where Apple says

01:37:04   it should work and it does.

01:37:06   If I've seen it follow the gaze of a person

01:37:09   to focus on another person in the frame,

01:37:11   I've seen it use overscan to track and see that a person

01:37:15   is entering the frame and then switch focus

01:37:18   from the person you're focused on in the frame

01:37:20   to that other person automatically.

01:37:22   None of this is even talking about the fact

01:37:26   that you can change it afterwards if you need to

01:37:28   or if it misses, which it does, right?

01:37:31   But that's not even talking about,

01:37:32   this is talking about the casual use of an 80 percenter,

01:37:36   right, the person who grabs iPhone is like,

01:37:38   oh cool, look at this new mode,

01:37:40   I'm gonna play around with this

01:37:41   and shoots their kids with it.

01:37:42   The results that are gonna get out of it,

01:37:44   sure, one in 10, two in 10, three in 10 may go like,

01:37:47   oh, that was kind of funky,

01:37:48   I don't know if I like that or not.

01:37:49   But a lot of people are going to start shooting

01:37:53   and thinking and being able to enjoy their home movies

01:37:58   with the language of movies and film and cinema

01:38:02   now available to them than were ever before

01:38:05   because they never owned a camera with detachable lenses

01:38:09   and a gimbal and a rack focusing pulley or wheel

01:38:14   and all that.

01:38:16   - They don't have any, they not only don't have a kit

01:38:19   to do focus pulling, they don't have someone

01:38:22   to be the focus puller.

01:38:24   - Right. - Right.

01:38:25   There's a Kubrick quote that I abuse,

01:38:27   I overuse it so much, but I love it.

01:38:29   And to me, it explains so many things that I care about

01:38:32   and why I care about them.

01:38:33   And it is, sometimes the truth of a thing

01:38:36   is not in the think of it, but in the feel of it.

01:38:40   And that to me is exactly what this,

01:38:42   you can think about it and examine,

01:38:44   oh, the hair's out of focus

01:38:47   and the left frame of the eyeglasses shouldn't be blurred,

01:38:51   but it is.

01:38:52   And then you can watch a movie like "Float"

01:38:55   and you get the feels and that's the truth of the feature.

01:38:59   Anyway. - Right.

01:39:01   - Let's call it a wrap.

01:39:01   Matthew Panzorino, I thank you so much for your time

01:39:04   and your insight.

01:39:05   I can't think of anybody else

01:39:07   I would rather talk iPhone camera with

01:39:08   other than Johnny Manzari and Kyan Drance,

01:39:12   who you got to talk to.

01:39:13   So it's like I've gotten them on the show

01:39:17   and it's one degree of separation.

01:39:20   Let me also thank our sponsors, great sponsors this week,

01:39:23   Memberful and LinkedIn and Mack Weldon, my thanks to them.

01:39:28   Thanks.

01:39:30   Thanks.