The Talk Show

320: ‘Paper Floor Mats’, With Christina Warren


00:00:00   Hello

00:00:01   Hello, how are you? I I'm good. How are you? I mean this sincerely

00:00:05   I'm okay. I'm okay. This pandemic sucks

00:00:10   I think everybody who listens to the show and you are very astute, you know

00:00:15   I'm not one for corniness, but I mean this to everybody out there listening. I hope everybody's alright

00:00:21   It's more stressful than it has been in a long time because of the uncertainty don't you think yes, that's 100% it

00:00:29   I was on the phone with my mom yesterday

00:00:31   It was her birthday. Happy birthday to my mom. Shout out to her. She's awesome and

00:00:34   my parents are in their 70s and they're in good health and my mom especially but

00:00:40   She's worried about this other surge and she lives in a state, Georgia

00:00:45   Where people don't take stuff as seriously as they should and there's drama right now

00:00:49   or one of the major school systems doesn't even have mask mandates most of them do fortunately and

00:00:55   she's wanting to investigate getting a booster and whatnot and

00:00:59   She made appointments for them for the end of next week with the hope that there will be an announcement

00:01:04   By then that people who are older will be able to go ahead and get a booster because right now the guidelines are if you're

00:01:11   immuno compromised so like if you have like a

00:01:13   Form of cancer or like a transplant or something like that, right?

00:01:17   They like go ahead and and the CDC has approved it but she's just kind of waiting I guess for that next level

00:01:23   They're saying eight months and she would be a little bit before then but just trying to kind of figure out

00:01:28   Well, are they saying eight months because that's when it's safe or is it because that's like a supply constraint

00:01:34   There's all sorts of ways that people are

00:01:37   immuno compromised I had an aunt who had MS for decades and yes, she'd never had a transplant but took similar

00:01:45   drugs that people who've had organ transplants take it was part of the regime of

00:01:51   Mitigating the symptoms of MS. It's also stressful. It's like overall the situation is better

00:01:58   Even today with the Delta with everything that's going on

00:02:02   It is still better than it was at the worst points of this pandemic

00:02:05   but the uncertainty

00:02:08   Really reminds me of the early months of the pandemic and I would argue in some ways

00:02:15   It almost feels worse because you're right. It is better than it was at like the worst parts of the pandemic

00:02:20   But we had this period where we were kind of coming out of it and we were starting to

00:02:24   assimilate and go back to normal and now we're in this period where not only do we have the uncertainty that I agree with you

00:02:30   It's similar to the beginning

00:02:31   but then you have this added stress of the PTSD that we all have of remembering what it was before and

00:02:37   We were just doing more normal things now. Can we can we not like it? It's shitty. Yeah, I'm

00:02:44   so super super lucky both of my parents are still in

00:02:49   Good health and they listen they read the news. They do what's recommended. They say you should wear masks. They wear masks

00:02:56   They say you should get vaccinated. They signed up as soon as they could but I'm worried about them

00:03:01   I really am because you look at the statistics and truly one of the things that's

00:03:06   It seems not in question is even if vaccinated if you're above

00:03:13   65 or so you're still at a fairly significant risk

00:03:19   You're more likely to catch it and if you do you're still significantly more likely to have a bad run of it

00:03:26   Yeah, exactly. And I like you I worry too and my parents are in good health

00:03:31   like I said, but it's a concern and so that is the stress but so anyway

00:03:36   We got the show off on a I know another that upbeat note

00:03:40   The other thing too is we have a full agenda

00:03:45   We have lots of stuff to talk about and not all of it. It's

00:03:49   It's a lot of unpleasantness. Yeah

00:03:52   Well, yes, I joke and I know it's it's not a joking matter, but it is I've said to my wife

00:04:01   It's like it is bizarre how much time I have spent thinking about child pornography in the last month

00:04:06   And it's like of all the things that I needed on my agenda, right?

00:04:12   I did not want this. This is so upsetting the whole thing. Well, we'll get to that in a bit

00:04:17   Do you have a topic you want to start on?

00:04:19   Don't know

00:04:21   Is there anything fun? Yeah, let's let's try to think about something that is actually pleasant

00:04:27   How about the Safari 15 story?

00:04:30   Which yeah, I think is actually the probably the most pleasant thing on the agenda

00:04:35   I think so and I think it's good. They listened. We won I

00:04:41   Do think that it's

00:04:43   Exacerbated so for anybody who's listening far in the future and who doesn't remember the saga of?

00:04:49   Safari 15 betas in the summer of 2021

00:04:54   Apple announced a

00:04:57   thorough

00:04:59   Re-envisioning of the way tabs work in Safari on all three platforms Mac iPad iPhone

00:05:07   In fairly different ways, I guess the iPad and Mac interfaces as proposed were a little bit more

00:05:15   Aligned like it was sort of a

00:05:20   Macification of iPad and iPad a vacation of Mac

00:05:24   Especially on iPhone in particular there were some aspects of what was announced at WWDC that without rehashing all of what?

00:05:33   Was bad about that design it was bad

00:05:37   With some good fundamental top-level thinking mixed in I

00:05:43   Think the ideas were maybe good. I think the execution initially flawed, but I understand where the thinking came from

00:05:50   I I would say in large part a top level it is hey our phones are getting bigger

00:05:57   The bigger iPhones are selling better. There are even rumors without even

00:06:02   diverging on a tangent that

00:06:06   Next year not the ones that we expect to come in September

00:06:10   But next year that they are going to have a big-ass iPhone at the non pro tier

00:06:17   Right like one of the holes

00:06:19   I would say the the most glaring hole in the iPhone lineup right now is that the only way to get a truly big?

00:06:26   Like 6.5 inch diagonal iPhone right now is to get the iPhone 12 Pro max

00:06:32   Which is very very expensive, and it's heavy and at you're paying for the highest quality camera

00:06:39   Apple's ever made blah blah blah, and there are even rumors that

00:06:43   Whatever next year's phone is going to be if this year's the 12 s maybe next year's the 13

00:06:48   Maybe this year's iPhone 13 next year's iPhone whatever next September

00:06:53   That there's going to be a big-ass phone the phones are getting bigger people like big phones people are doing

00:06:59   Way more if not all of their personal computing on their phones, so why not right why not?

00:07:06   Put more of the controls towards the bottom of the screen because the top of the screen is hard to hard

00:07:13   impossible to reach

00:07:15   With one hand yeah, yeah

00:07:17   No, I mean and and as somebody who for many years was totally against the big phones because I have really small hands I

00:07:25   Like that and ironically I'm on like the the pro max whatever my argument

00:07:30   There is that even the smallest phone I still have to use two hands

00:07:33   So I might as well just have the bigger battery like at this point even the iPhone mini is too big so I

00:07:40   Might as well just get the giant phone, but you're right

00:07:44   I mean I think is more and more people use them as their primary kind of personal computing device

00:07:49   Not having to reach up all the way having stuff at the bottom is a good move and as somebody who?

00:07:54   Frequently does that like I'm not opposed to to those things like at a top level

00:07:58   Right the basic idea. I think at a high level was all right

00:08:04   We've got this important stuff at the top of the screen on the phone

00:08:08   like the URL bar the a a button for

00:08:13   Adjusting the visual layout the reload button. I mean can you believe?

00:08:18   We temporarily lost the reload button. Oh my god. I've never almost

00:08:24   Gone back to an OS before her. I know you know when we had that I was like I cannot believe this

00:08:30   This is almost unusable

00:08:32   It's all good now beta 6 now, it's good beta 6. It's good

00:08:38   They they've listened you can put stuff back at the top if you want the bottom is better

00:08:43   They got rid of the weird color stuff that I don't think worked

00:08:46   Yeah, and it's I guess that's still I to me the biggest surprise that people who don't pay attention

00:08:53   To the betas and god bless you all you know especially if you if you're nerdy enough to listen to the show

00:08:59   But not nerdy enough to to have a spare device or to be reckless enough to put these betas on your main iPhone

00:09:07   I I got that and and I do think the longer you wait to get on these betas

00:09:14   For on a device that you really need the wiser you are

00:09:18   But there's a lot of people and I hear from them who?

00:09:22   Have a sort of I ignore that stuff right after

00:09:25   WWDC I wait till August and maybe I get on the beta then and I got a couple of emails this week

00:09:31   From people who like started on beta 6 and they're like I don't see what the big deal is no because you chose the right time

00:09:37   right

00:09:38   Honestly like so it's weird because I no longer professionally need to be on the betas and in fact in some cases

00:09:43   It's it's a bad thing because for work stuff like if something doesn't work right like it could be a problem

00:09:49   I do still have like secondary devices. They'll put stuff on but I'm so used to at this point like it's been like

00:09:55   More than a decade that I always have the beta you know running usually the developer beta

00:10:00   Those are like hard habits to break, but I think you're exactly right

00:10:03   I think for most people I would be like if you can't wait until September the right time is usually like mid-august

00:10:09   That's usually the right time in my opinion to get going with the beta because most the egregious stuff is worked out

00:10:16   The showstoppers are done. Yeah, and you're getting close to what you're gonna see in the final version

00:10:21   Right because for better or for worse and some years it's good some years

00:10:27   It's you know I guess it was what iOS

00:10:30   13 was the one that was the bad yeah, I was 13 two years ago was the

00:10:36   really rocky

00:10:38   Release where literally three days after the new iPhones were introduced they came out with iOS

00:10:45   13.1

00:10:47   Point release like right there. Yeah, not not

00:10:50   13.0 point one like with minor bug fixes, but like a

00:10:55   Truly significant release, but that they had to flash

00:10:59   What was we're just gonna call this?

00:11:02   13.0 had to start flashing it onto iPhones and three days later came out with a point release

00:11:07   Overall I think the forcing function of hey

00:11:13   Everybody working on iOS we have to be cognizant of the fact that the general plan is

00:11:18   the company is going to announce new phones early in September and

00:11:23   The new OS has to be ready then by mid-september

00:11:26   Come hell or high water it

00:11:29   It works for Apple overall and even the iOS 13 story worked out pretty well

00:11:36   overall and and they do a clever thing that they don't get enough credit for which is

00:11:41   Not every version of iOS

00:11:43   Especially the new ones in September

00:11:46   Gets pushed to people as a hey, there's a new version to upgrade

00:11:52   Do you want to upgrade hit this button and it'll upgrade overnight while your phone is charging iOS 13.0 didn't get pushed to anybody

00:11:59   You know you could get it if you wanted it right if you if you went in and checked manually you could get it

00:12:04   But it wasn't going to push itself right which is smart and in that way they can kind of temper okay?

00:12:11   How far are we from the next release that the next update right are there problems?

00:12:16   Are we even maybe even getting telemetry and feedback that this isn't working and we need to stop notifying people you know?

00:12:23   So I think that next month if I was 15 gets pushed out around this time in September

00:12:31   You know the 20th or so or whatever the day of the month you know I guess they usually push them out on a Friday

00:12:36   day whatever that day is I think the one thing about Safari that might I I think moving the address bar to the bottom but

00:12:44   attaching it above

00:12:46   The tool you know the standard toolbar that we know and love and which I think is very thoughtfully considered and

00:12:54   Shouldn't have changed and hasn't changed. I think people will get that your eyes might go to the top of your phone

00:13:00   I'm still I I'm trying to get used to it now that they've adjusted to it

00:13:05   I'm using it on a spare iPhone

00:13:07   I'm not sure if I'll stick with it or not

00:13:09   But people will get used to that the thing that I think people might be like whoa

00:13:14   What is this is the color tinting?

00:13:16   Daring fireball happens to be a very good example of it where if you go to my website

00:13:21   with the iOS 15 beta 6 of Safari

00:13:25   as you scroll and the toolbar fades away at the bottom and the top to make room for content the

00:13:32   The chrome at the top and bottom take on the background color of the website

00:13:37   It's okay. You know I I have mixed feelings about it. I'm not sure I don't have a hot take on it

00:13:45   Yeah, I don't have a hot take on it on iOS. I don't like the implementation on Mac. Yeah

00:13:52   Yeah, and I think it works worse on Mac and iPad

00:13:55   Because Mac and iPad you switch tabs directly

00:14:00   Yes, that's the thing on the iPhone you always are in a single tap and and you have to manually press that button and then scroll

00:14:07   Through it whereas you are tapping or touching if you're using the touch bar for some reason

00:14:12   You are going to those places manually so sorry I always have to make fun of the touch bar. It's just such a

00:14:19   You know I haven't even thought to look at what iOS. I actually because I've got

00:14:28   The the Mac OS beta running on the

00:14:31   iMac review unit that I write

00:14:34   I'm clinging to until this beta is not beta anymore, and then I'll send it back therefore

00:14:40   I don't know what it looks like with the touch bar

00:14:42   I'm a similar thing I have it running on an iMac might and I have it like in a container

00:14:45   But I don't have it on a touch bar Mac on a touch bar, but yeah, but I think you're right like this because you know

00:14:52   It's a different modal kind of you know

00:14:54   thing and so

00:14:57   When you're switching and you're manually making that decision to go to that tab when it then suddenly has a completely different look and it doesn't

00:15:05   Look like what you're expecting and now it's difficult to even ask at least in earlier versions

00:15:10   It's gotten a little bit better, but you know it was a difficult to kind of distinguish like okay

00:15:14   Where am I what am I doing? That's that's not a good user experience. Yeah

00:15:19   And it just it's just unpleasant right yeah

00:15:23   and it's like in a way that if you

00:15:27   Just

00:15:30   print out

00:15:31   Or make a PDF whatever you want if you want to share it digitally

00:15:35   Screenshots of the interface and say okay. Here's what it looks like on the New York Times

00:15:41   Here's what it looks like on apple.com

00:15:43   Here's what it looks like on

00:15:46   google.com if

00:15:48   You just look at the screenshots independently

00:15:51   You're not feeling the experience of oh

00:15:55   No, you just switch between tabs and all of a sudden all of this stuff at the top flashes to a different color

00:16:01   It's the actual experience where it yeah worse

00:16:05   yeah, like it feels like I'm taking out of what I'm doing like I now I'm focusing on something that I didn't used to have to

00:16:11   focus on and

00:16:12   That I don't like that

00:16:13   I'm not a fan of that like I'm switching this for a reason usually because I know what I'm going for when I check something

00:16:19   I don't want to immediately have to readjust. Okay. Where's my point of reference? Where are my buttons? Where's whatever I need to do?

00:16:26   It'd be one thing

00:16:27   I think if we didn't have at this point close to 30 years of experience with how like web browser Chrome works, but we do

00:16:33   so I

00:16:35   I'm not a fan. I will say what the

00:16:38   Microsoft Edge team is doing with the version of Edge that's in Windows 11

00:16:43   They take on some of this where if you do if you make a PWA

00:16:47   So it's not if you're doing like it's not the standard web browser thing

00:16:51   but if you actually create like a progressive web app and either you

00:16:53   Want to run that in a tab or you want to run that as like its own contained thing

00:16:58   They do have a thing where they can match some of the stuff to a color that you select that the developer can customize

00:17:04   But it doesn't do the thing where it's automatically taking things from the web page and and I personally prefer that a little bit more

00:17:11   But I also feel like that's a different like mental model because again, it's a progressive web app

00:17:16   So it's contained and you are expecting that contained application experience

00:17:21   Whereas if I have tabs open I'm expecting a web page and I'm expecting certain user interface elements to be consistent

00:17:28   Regardless of what tab I'm looking at

00:17:31   in theory, it sounds good because it sounds like

00:17:36   It taking on the color of the web page gets the chrome even more out of the way

00:17:42   this is the thing I've heard from people who claim to like the

00:17:47   WWDC versions of Safari 15 they like the idea that hey this it lets the web page be front and center

00:17:56   Right. It's immersive

00:17:57   But but I feel like the unexpected outcome of it is it actually draws way more attention to the chrome, right?

00:18:04   Like I've never thought more about the top

00:18:07   Inch and a half of my Safari windows than when I was running those versions of Safari with that option turned on

00:18:14   Yeah, exactly

00:18:16   And I have to say it was it's not that difficult for people who are really that bothered by it to either

00:18:20   Make the toolbar as minimal as possible or to do things in full screen mode

00:18:25   So I don't know I get why I guess like they would think that it's a good thing makes it more immersive

00:18:31   But I'm with you. I think that it just draws more attention to to those elements on the iPhone

00:18:36   I do feel like they have landed

00:18:39   It's almost like having a bad flight, you know, like like where you hit a lot of turbulence, you know, and they're like

00:18:46   Hey, this is actually dangerous. Definitely. Keep your seatbelt on don't even go to the bathroom and

00:18:50   even if you're not a nervous flyer your palms are sweaty because you just don't expect the plane to be rocky and

00:18:57   It smooths out and you have a nice landing. I feel like that's where they've taken it on the iPhone

00:19:03   It is fascinating to me that we saw it play out in public, right?

00:19:07   That's the thing that was interesting to me too is we've seen this happen a couple of times. I'm trying to I

00:19:13   God it was it was a number of iOS versions ago

00:19:17   There might have been something with 13, but I think that there was something I think it was before iOS 10

00:19:21   But there have been a couple instances where we've seen them kind of go back and forth and I remember

00:19:26   More than a decade ago. Actually. Do you remember when they had the weird tab experiment with a Safari Mac?

00:19:32   Yeah, very early very early. Yeah, where they had like the tabs on top similar to Chrome, right?

00:19:37   But but it just it didn't work

00:19:39   So we've seen this a few times but it is always interesting to me, especially for a company that guards itself

00:19:44   I think it would prize itself on being very refined in its public image and being very set in its decisions that it puts out

00:19:51   to see these changes

00:19:53   In iterations frankly happening and very clearly based on feedback that they were getting from from users and developers

00:20:00   Yeah, the other one that I would think of is in the initial

00:20:06   Versions of iOS 7 which was the big change

00:20:10   Yeah

00:20:11   That was the massive change the the big get rid of all the texture and three-dimensional depth and Johnny I've has taken over

00:20:18   the by bitch for stall

00:20:20   Yeah, but the initial versions had

00:20:23   the flat

00:20:26   flattening of everything

00:20:28   Was the part that stuck and it took people's attention. I remember mail in particular used these

00:20:34   Incredibly thin weights of Helvetica Noya. Yeah, like just

00:20:40   Artistically, you know, yeah, it's it's one of the neat things about Helvetica Noya that it has these thin and super fat black weights

00:20:49   There's both extra bold weights and extra thin weights

00:20:52   But like you don't want to read your email with with with a font that is like no

00:20:57   You don't because it was so thin. No, I remember that there were there were a number of those things

00:21:01   They've kind of made changes. There were icons that weren't finalized there were you know, certain buttons with that iOS 7

00:21:07   Side note, I didn't realize it was Noya. I always thought it was new but that's Noya. Have you seen the help?

00:21:13   This is me me pronouncing a hard to pronounce word correctly for one of the few times ever in the history of this podcast

00:21:20   No, I'm really glad to know this because I've been mentally like in my head saying this wrong for however many years

00:21:26   Have you seen the the Helvetica variable font?

00:21:30   No, I don't think so was announced Helvetica now variable monotype just released it and it's basically a variable version of

00:21:38   Them Helvetica now I like the idea of variable fonts

00:21:42   So that that came out this week or at least I saw it this week

00:21:46   So that's kind of cool. If you send me a link I will I promise to put it in the show notes. I

00:21:52   Will I'll put it in I will put it in our shared notes. But anyway long story short Safari 15 is in good shape

00:21:58   I think that moving the URL bar to the bottom but attached above the regular toolbar

00:22:05   when you need it and then it just disappears as you scroll is a

00:22:09   delightful

00:22:11   Solution that takes the best of what Safari was already very good at and adds some very

00:22:19   Forward thinking ideas for moving it forward in the era of big phones, which clearly is not going away

00:22:26   No, yes, it's clearly not like this is obviously where

00:22:29   Things will continue to be I do also like I have to say because at first I was kind of thinking

00:22:35   Should this be the defaults or or what? I'm glad they made it the default

00:22:41   I'm glad you can switch it if you if you don't like it

00:22:43   At least that's how it is in the betas that could potentially change

00:22:46   but I do like that they do let you go in the settings and

00:22:49   Make that change and sometimes I'm not a fan of that. I'm like just make the decision

00:22:53   but in this case, I think is enough of a difference and enough of a change after you know, so many years that I

00:22:58   Appreciate that but I also think like I agree with you. I think it's a good design decision

00:23:03   I think it's something that's forward-thinking and will be good for these bigger phones. I am glad I have to say this is one of those

00:23:09   times I'm glad I don't have to I'm not a

00:23:11   Journalist anymore and I don't have to oversee or assign people in advance to write

00:23:15   You know blogs how to change

00:23:17   you know the the the tab at positioning because you know

00:23:23   There will be a million of those what time is the Super Bowl post like literally the second that iOS 15 drops

00:23:28   All right. Let me take a break here and thank our first sponsor. It's our good friends at memberful

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00:25:16   Here's a little thing you're a longtime Mac user

00:25:21   but also obviously use Windows and you're familiar with other platforms a

00:25:26   Little thing about Safari 15 that annoys me I tweeted about it. Haven't written about it on daring fireball

00:25:33   But when you go to the tab switcher now

00:25:35   The closed buttons for the tabs are on the upper right instead of the upper left on iOS. Yeah

00:25:43   and

00:25:45   It bothers me

00:25:47   In a way that it's hard for me to write about it. It feels more like a podcast topic

00:25:53   It's easier to talk about but it's to me an idiom that on the Mac close is

00:25:59   Exactly. It's the reason why Safari's tabs have closed buttons on the Mac

00:26:06   on the left exactly

00:26:09   Right. Whereas every other browser has them on the right but on on Safari

00:26:14   It's on the left because that's where the buttons are and that's how it's always been

00:26:17   I hadn't thought about that, but you're right. That is a weird I

00:26:21   Don't know if I like that to be honest. It's

00:26:24   the analogy I'd like to make is to which side of the road do you drive on and

00:26:31   In the US we drive on the right side of the road in the UK and a bunch of other countries

00:26:38   You drive on the left side of the road. I

00:26:40   Don't really think one is even better than the other

00:26:44   I'm not arguing like like the way that I'll go to the mat for Fahrenheit over Celsius for air temperature

00:26:51   I don't have a strong feeling about it

00:26:53   But it you you can't just change it willy-nilly

00:26:57   Like you can't you can't just like cross over the state line

00:27:02   From Pennsylvania to New Jersey and then all of a sudden you drive on the other side of the road

00:27:07   It breaks your mental model. I think that

00:27:10   When I complained about it on Twitter what some people said is well, no, I like it because way more people are right-handed than left-handed

00:27:17   It's what nine out of ten people are right-handed like that

00:27:20   Yeah

00:27:21   and therefore putting the close buttons and the top right makes it easier to hit with your thumb if you're holding it one-handed and

00:27:29   It is all of a piece with moving the URL bar to the bottom. It's like

00:27:34   Maybe that's what they're thinking. I don't know to me. The idiom is more important than the reachability

00:27:40   Yeah, and I think for me

00:27:43   I've never thought about the idiom that way but I think I understand we were coming from and

00:27:47   For me, I think again and this is just my own preference because regardless of how I'm using the phone

00:27:52   I'm going to be using it two-handed if

00:27:55   Anything I kind of don't mind the fact that it's on the other side

00:27:59   I would I would agree that I think for some people for reachability purposes

00:28:03   It probably will make it easier to scroll through and close things out

00:28:07   Although at the same time like you can just kind of swipe up and or swipe to the side

00:28:10   You know, you can use gestures to close things if that's what you need to do. So I

00:28:16   Don't know, you know, like it's in since you could just swipe to the side to get rid of a tab

00:28:22   I don't know if it is worth changing that idiom as you say

00:28:26   It's one of those historical

00:28:29   Artifacts that I spend way too much time thinking about but the Mac came first then Windows

00:28:36   And and I know that you know

00:28:38   The Mac came after all the stuff at Xerox that Steve Jobs and his team got to go and look at it wasn't the first graphical

00:28:44   user interface, but the Mac was the first one to ship to consumers and

00:28:47   Windows was

00:28:51   To some degree it

00:28:54   uncontroversially

00:28:56   It was their answer to hey this gooey stuff is a great idea

00:29:00   We we should get the PC moving in that direction and right I and it was a dosh shell

00:29:06   You know, I mean it was it was honestly it was a solid, you know decade before they actually had

00:29:11   The first the first version of Windows was literally like a character based thing, you know

00:29:16   It's a joke like it's funny, you know, I mean like you 3.0, you know is the first one where you could kind of say

00:29:22   Okay, this is this is the direction it's going in 3.1

00:29:26   You never find it, but it was we all to be honest was Windows 95 that really introduced new paradigms and I think

00:29:31   Actively changed things and Apple famously, you know the the you know Windows 95 welcome to Apple 84

00:29:38   And there's some truth in that right like even though the teal background was similar

00:29:42   There was there was a lot of stuff that they definitely, you know

00:29:45   Heavily were influenced by but there were new paradigms to the start menu right-clicking for context

00:29:51   Yeah, there was a lot of stuff that I think you can argue

00:29:53   Windows at that point took into its own but yeah Mac it's yes, obviously, you know Xerox PARC predates

00:30:02   but the Mac is where this was all born and

00:30:04   Where I think more than that where all the software that we use was developed and iterated on which then became part of

00:30:12   You know the OS is themselves and the part of how we interact with the applications including incidentally

00:30:18   Like my favorite app of all time Microsoft Excel, which is a Mac app

00:30:22   That's my favorite thing ever. I mean it was a freaking Mac app. It was Mac only for like three years. I

00:30:29   So my question and I don't even know if there's anybody left who remembers it my question has always been

00:30:35   From the very earliest days of Windows did they put the close button at the top right instead of the top left?

00:30:41   Just because they were like well well, we'll get we'll get in trouble

00:30:46   Well, not even trouble but like and I know there was that big hole

00:30:50   Yeah, there was ill conceived look and feel right the the look and feel lawsuit, which was

00:30:55   Which was a time well and it was incoherent because it it's like a lot of political discourse today where it's like Apple was

00:31:03   Simultaneously trying to argue that the Mac was vastly better designed than Windows

00:31:08   but also that Windows had copied their look and feel right it's like

00:31:13   It it doesn't look it didn't look like the Mac. It never quite looked like it

00:31:18   It was you know

00:31:19   It was some sort of ham-fisted foot stomping attempt to say we should be the only people with a graphical

00:31:26   user interface and which

00:31:28   To me is nonsensical, right? 100%

00:31:31   I mean, especially since like it built on as we just said the stuff that they saw from Xerox, right like

00:31:37   And and even if it hadn't like we should never just have one of anything. But anyway go on well

00:31:43   it's you shouldn't be able to hold a

00:31:46   broad concept a basic concept that it and and in fact, nobody ever really does right it's it's not like

00:31:53   You know and look at the way the iPhone

00:31:56   And Android have evolved right? It's like oh

00:32:00   Should a phone just be a piece of glass with no hardware keyboard?

00:32:05   Underneath it and just make the whole as as much of the front surface as you technically can just make it be a touchscreen

00:32:11   yes, that's actually a great idea and

00:32:15   It was you know

00:32:16   The iPhone was first and it it is right and just that once that idea had entered people's heads that that's that's the way

00:32:24   All phones have worked since until you know at some point maybe somebody will come up with a better idea, but probably not

00:32:31   Right. I mean we have some of the foldable stuff which I think some of those concepts are interesting and maybe as that gets better

00:32:37   And better we'll see that a ball but it's still the same basic idea, right?

00:32:40   It's like you've got this slab of glass that that is just the screen and that is what you have

00:32:46   Yeah

00:32:46   I suspect that Microsoft kind of knew Apple might sue and that the look-and-feel lawsuit wasn't

00:32:53   Something they didn't anticipate and that they were sort of thinking well, yeah

00:32:59   Yeah, I'm sure I'd be I'd be interested to know I'm sure there's still people I don't know if they're still at Microsoft

00:33:05   I'm sure there are people who are still around who know that but I'd be curious about that too if they made the decision either

00:33:11   Because they were worried about you know, look-and-feel lawsuits or whatever or maybe just because they wanted to differentiate

00:33:17   But it's like if

00:33:21   It just makes me wonder like was there a meeting where this was decided and if it if the meeting had just gone slightly

00:33:28   Differently we'd all have closed button from the top left and and none of this would be a debate

00:33:34   But that somebody was like, yeah

00:33:35   I think we can really hang our hats on this if we get sued that we can say look if you want to close the

00:33:41   Window you got to go to the top right not the top left. It's totally different

00:33:46   It's totally different. Well, I be I'd be curious because I I've only used it in VMs

00:33:51   I don't know much about it because I mean talk about talking about you know, like disasters like the OS 2 stuff

00:33:57   I'm curious how the closed things were on OS 2 if they were on the right or the left

00:34:02   Like I think with BoS. I'm pretty sure it was on the left. Yeah

00:34:06   Because they because they had the tab metaphor, right?

00:34:10   that was their original their original idea was that the title bar was only as wide as the

00:34:16   The string that the name, you know the name of the window. Yeah now the the Linux distribution

00:34:23   Ubuntu they famously

00:34:26   Moved I think was in like 2008 or 2009

00:34:28   this was when so Mark shuttleworth their CEO and founder who made a bunch of money in like the dot-com era and and you know

00:34:36   Has us put it into this company

00:34:39   and

00:34:41   he there was this period of time in like the late aughts where he was very like boisterous about the fact that like

00:34:47   Linux on the desktop is gonna out Mac the Mac and everybody laughed and obviously it was wrong because

00:34:52   The year the next desktop is never gonna be a thing and you know

00:34:56   The closest thing that we have to it I would argue is actually current versions of Windows and the way that they integrate

00:35:01   The Windows subsystem for Linux, but that'll get me hate mail from a whole bunch of other people

00:35:05   So you won't say it. Well, I mean I have said and I'll say it again

00:35:09   but you know what, I mean, I won't go on a whole rant about that, but

00:35:12   when they were trying to take that on when he was actually investing a lot of money in the desktop experience for Ubuntu which I

00:35:19   Think did help move things forward

00:35:21   It didn't make the clusterfuck that is the Linux desktop environment any less of a clusterfuck

00:35:25   but he was they were trying they moved the close buttons to the left and

00:35:30   They also had them you to be circular and and they didn't have the same, you know colors, you know, the

00:35:38   Stoplight colors as Mac OS, but they did have you know, these like circular, you know things within their

00:35:44   UI frameworks and they put it on the left and people it was mixed some people really liked it

00:35:50   A lot of people really didn't but it was that way for three or four years, I think and then they moved it back to

00:35:56   the right which

00:35:58   always was surprising to me and and it's so weird because all these years later whenever I

00:36:03   Almost exclusively use Linux like through a command line

00:36:06   But when I do use, you know some sort of desktop environment or whatever

00:36:11   I always have this like a weird thing with Ubuntu where I'm expecting it to be on the left

00:36:17   But they've moved it to the right and I'm just like really, you know, but that's that was one of those weird ones where?

00:36:23   They very consciously

00:36:25   I think they were maybe trying to capture the Mac audience or I don't know what the rationale was and then

00:36:30   Either their own feedback or something else. They were just like now and then they moved it

00:36:34   It's not a bad goal, right if you think like hey the people who really care about user interface are using the Mac

00:36:41   We we really want to care about user interface

00:36:44   So we should try to appeal to Mac users. That's not a bad idea. And even if it falls short, it's not a bad

00:36:51   What would you call it? Like our North Star is yeah. No, it's not bad. No, I don't think it's bad at all

00:36:59   There's actually another Linux distro that that I like a lot and I support them

00:37:04   Even though it like it's not something I use a lot, but it's called elementary

00:37:07   It's it's based on Ubuntu but they have their own completely kind of customized user interface, which is very similar to the Mac

00:37:14   Although it's original to them and and they also their big thing is like they want their applications in their store to all have a consistent

00:37:21   look and feel which is very much against the ethos of most Linux distributions

00:37:27   and so they're trying but they're they have a similar kind of I think North Star where they're

00:37:32   trying to be well designed and and you know, I don't think that they would say that they're outright like trying to copy or

00:37:41   You know be better than the Mac but I think that they look at the Mac is like

00:37:45   This is the quality that we would like to in a perfect role aspire to be even if our implementation is different. I

00:37:51   Just can't get overthinking that there's a better version of our you know in in the multiverse of universes

00:37:59   There's one where Microsoft put the closed buttons on the top left and then everyone's in the top left and nobody ever even thinks about it

00:38:07   No, you ever thinks about it. Nobody ever thinks about it. Although I bet somebody would have like it would probably not be used very often

00:38:14   Maybe that would be like the the canoe herd or whatever it was that the installment was trying and failed to do

00:38:19   Maybe be one of the BSDs right? Maybe that's what it would be right? Maybe this is it

00:38:24   Maybe this is the the weird universe where?

00:38:26   Microsoft puts it on

00:38:29   The the left and then the BSDs with with whatever

00:38:34   X11 thing they're doing they put it on the right and then OS X puts it on the right

00:38:38   It's funny, you know and it makes me think about like the early prototype of the aqua interface

00:38:45   That they showed where the they put the Apple logo in the middle of the menu. Yes

00:38:50   People you you mentioned that to people who weren't like obsessively following like news of back OS X circa the year

00:38:59   2000 or 1999 or whenever that was and and they'll say what and they'll say oh, yeah

00:39:04   they moved the Apple menu to the exact middle of the menu bar and

00:39:07   It it was a bad idea it was a bad idea that was one of those things I you know

00:39:14   I remember reading about the stuff. I obviously didn't using the betas then because I didn't have the ability to really, you know

00:39:19   Try to get them or install them on, you know

00:39:22   Computers or whatever then but I remember reading about it and being like, huh? That's that's weird

00:39:29   Glad that they rethought that before maybe that ships, but maybe that comes full circle, you know with the iOS

00:39:35   15 version of Safari and the bad ideas with tabs

00:39:40   It's like well sometimes they'll show us bad ideas and we get to see apples abandoned ideas

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00:42:28   Some follow-up before we get into the the other stuff

00:42:32   Have you have you gotten the magsafe battery pack? I bought it and I returned it

00:42:41   Well, it looks like we're not gonna have a debate about this product

00:42:46   No

00:42:49   I I really liked Quinn's video on his nasty Q Channel

00:42:54   I thought that his review is actually probably said everything that I would want to say about it. I just I struggle to

00:43:00   figure out

00:43:03   Why it exists I get the point in it and it's I think like a really compelling idea behind magsafe

00:43:09   Which would be like I can just attach this battery and it'll charge it

00:43:12   but with the speed in which it charges the fact that you can't charge it itself wirelessly, which is just

00:43:18   Well, I do get that I forgive that but it is counterintuitive

00:43:22   And I know that was a part of Quinn's video is that I think it was his wife or somebody

00:43:26   He knows yeah, you know got it and and she was like, well, how do I charge it?

00:43:31   I'll just put it on a charging pad and right now that doesn't that doesn't do anything. No

00:43:36   No, I mean I I get why it doesn't work either and I can understand that but it does just feel counterintuitive

00:43:41   but I think for me the bigger thing is just it takes so long to kind of provide any juice and

00:43:46   You know kind of some of the other trade-offs. I'm like, you know at this point if I if I'm in the

00:43:54   Position where I need this battery quickly. I don't know if this is going to actually provide what I need

00:44:00   Other than offering, you know bulk and and even though it sticks on pretty well

00:44:05   I'm still gonna kind of be worried like does this thing fall off?

00:44:08   Versus can I just have a smaller battery pack, you know in my bag anyway, if that's what I need I just

00:44:14   With the price and with with the kind of performance either so I was just like I can't justify this

00:44:18   it's a hundred bucks, which is a lot and I

00:44:23   It's another thing that to me it is a bit

00:44:29   maybe I'm just

00:44:31   Have this thought in mind, but it's a lot like the initial versions of Safari 15 where it's like this sounds like a great idea

00:44:38   But you evaluate the actual thing and it's like it doesn't really work out

00:44:44   It sounds great that you just have this thing that you can magnetically attach to the back of your phone and let's say

00:44:51   Super common case for me is when I'm on vacation. I was with friends a couple weeks ago

00:44:58   took you know

00:45:01   Normal day. I might not take any photos, but I'm on vacation

00:45:04   I take tons of photos and I shoot lots of video and I have my phone set to shoot in 4k, you know and which actually

00:45:12   Consumes a lot of battery, you know, like it's as a phone reviewer. I still don't know a better way

00:45:20   It's a the weird world of being a reviewer is sometimes you want to test

00:45:24   Hey, how long does this new charger take to charge a fully depleted iPhone?

00:45:29   Well, how do you deplete the iPhone the best? I know and that's always the thing. Yeah for you is recording video

00:45:35   Yeah, it's 4k shoot set your phone to record 4k 60 and just put it in the corner

00:45:40   you know shoot it out a window or something like that and just

00:45:44   It I if there's a better way to run down a phone

00:45:48   I don't know because the phone won't go to sleep while it's recording video and shooting 4k 60, you know

00:45:54   Runs it down as fast as anything I can think of

00:45:59   So yeah, it sounds great. You just take this pack and and I use battery packs. I've always been obsessed with them

00:46:05   I have a whole half of my office is filled with with iPhone battery packs

00:46:10   And it sounds great. You don't have to worry about having a little cable and

00:46:15   You know one of the things I like with a battery pack is to have a very short cable because I do you know for years

00:46:22   I liked it if I could just put it in my pocket while I'm charging midday to

00:46:28   Juice up the phone in in the middle of a day while I'm away from any kind of wall socket

00:46:32   I don't want even a three-foot cable or an 18-inch cable. I want like a little like

00:46:37   4-inch cable so that it's you know, I don't have a cable sticking out of my pocket. Well magsafe sounds perfect, right?

00:46:44   There's no cable at all. It seems it seems great. And that's kind of what I was hoping for and then

00:46:49   My experience was it just it really didn't live up it it charges so slowly

00:46:56   It way more slowly than magsafe

00:46:58   Connected to a wall socket, right?

00:47:01   It's just to me in in practice and in real life over the last few weeks

00:47:09   It really seems not to charge your iPhone in practice. It kind of just keeps your iPhone where it is

00:47:14   So let's say your iPhone's at 30%

00:47:16   Put the magsafe pack on put it in your pocket and use your phone

00:47:20   Normally your phone just stays at 30% and I if you really take it out never use it just set it aside

00:47:27   It will charge your phone. I'm not claiming that it doesn't make your phone go to 31 32 33

00:47:33   But I'm saying in real life using your phone as it's connected to this battery pack. It just kind of floats it treads water

00:47:41   Yeah, no, which is which is interestingly I think similar

00:47:45   Although obviously it's more slowly but that it reminded me of the first iPhone battery case

00:47:50   And they came out within like in 2015 or 2016 because that was a similar thing where you know, it was a

00:47:56   Smaller capacity than the mofi cases and whatnot at the time, but it obviously had a better pass-through and whatnot

00:48:03   But I remember that having the similar situation. I was like, okay this charges

00:48:08   But really this is kind of about kind of maintaining and maybe using you know

00:48:12   The the excess battery if that's what you needed it to write

00:48:15   But that was kind of like I think the way that it was kind of position was not so much that this is now charging

00:48:21   Your phone but you're you know

00:48:23   Using some of the juice from this case and and your phone is able to be like at whatever its its level was

00:48:31   And I think you're right like it's it's I guess maybe useful if you're in a scenario where you're like, okay

00:48:37   I for whatever reason cannot have a small battery pack and look you can find more higher capacity battery packs that are

00:48:44   Smaller or take up at the very least the same amount of room that the the mag safe

00:48:49   Charger does yes, you'll need a cable but you can get a small one for that too, but it's just like

00:48:54   How slow it is and how little you get from it for me?

00:48:59   Especially since the the way that the the magnets work, you know

00:49:03   It is one of those things where if you've got a case on it

00:49:05   It's a pretty good grip, but it's still not one of those things where you know

00:49:10   I would feel totally confident in in its strength where for me I'm kind of like yeah

00:49:15   This is not going to replace a normal battery pack that I already am at this point

00:49:20   Conditioned to having in my purse or my my backpack or whatever

00:49:23   When I'm going to the beach or out with friends and I know I'm going to need to plug in

00:49:27   Especially since in that situation

00:49:30   I usually have like I've got like a USB C like fast charge battery where I can use

00:49:36   You know the USB C to lightning cable and I can juice up my iPhone

00:49:40   real quick and

00:49:43   And not have to kind of feel like I have to baby it or or whatever

00:49:47   And the other thing I've noticed in real life is it it gets warm enough

00:49:53   Mm-hmm, not unpleasant, but like hot but warm enough though that you can just feel how

00:50:02   Unefficient it is because you know that all of that heat is wasted energy

00:50:07   Right, right, and I noticed this the equipment since in his video, but I actually noticed this too

00:50:13   When I was outdoors with it, and this was kind of the thing that really killed it for me when I was outdoors with it

00:50:20   the screen dimmed when it was connected and

00:50:24   If you know, I tried to kind of raise, you know that then it started to get really hot and for me

00:50:31   I was just kind of like, okay. Well, this is useless and it seemed to actually work more poorly outdoors than it did indoors and for me most

00:50:38   situations where I'm going to be using a battery pack are going to be situations where I'm outdoors and

00:50:43   So and and I'm in Seattle where it's hardly I mean, it's sunny

00:50:47   I guess you know in the summer, but it's not like the Sun hits place on earth or anything

00:50:51   But I can imagine you know, if I'm at the beach where it's hot anyway and where already you have issues, you know with

00:50:58   You know keeping the battery from from overheating and whatnot, but if you're already in that scenario

00:51:01   Like I'm going to LA in a couple of weeks. I could be like, yeah

00:51:04   if I'm at a concert and I've got this thing on and it's hot out and then this is hot and

00:51:10   And the you know feels like the iPhone is overheating like this is just probably not gonna even give me any net power

00:51:17   Yeah

00:51:17   I

00:51:18   So I've come full circle and I would encourage anybody who's vaguely interested in a mag safe

00:51:24   portable battery pack to buy the anchor one, which is 50 bucks and

00:51:29   Also if you've really if the whole thing you really want to do and no matter what you and I have just said

00:51:37   About how it's not that great magnetically if you really want to just use a portable battery pack

00:51:44   Magnetically with no cable. The Apple one is better than anchors in my

00:51:50   But the anchor one to me is a better product and even price aside, but it is double the price

00:51:56   You could buy two of them, you know, it's literally half the price, but it works as a regular old-fashioned

00:52:04   The whole thing battery thing which to me I think is is what what sells it for me

00:52:08   They could be the same price

00:52:09   I would still prefer the anchor one because you still have that ability to quickly charge it and then then the benefit

00:52:16   Well, then why even get it instead of a non magnetic one is that when you're traveling?

00:52:20   You could use the anchor one as like your portable hotel

00:52:24   Nightstand phone charger and you charge both products up

00:52:28   Just plug one USB C cable into the anchor charger

00:52:32   Your phone will snap on to it and it'll both will charge overnight and then during the day if you want to top off your

00:52:40   Phone with your portable battery pack just use a cable and you'll get you'll charge so much faster

00:52:46   And you won't it won't get hot 15 minutes and you you know, you could pick up

00:52:50   You know an extra 10% or something like that and you're good to go

00:52:54   Yeah, I agree with that I would I haven't

00:52:59   Purchased the anchor one

00:53:02   But if I were going to get another one

00:53:03   That's totally what I would do because then I feel like you get the best of what you would want the mag safe for

00:53:09   With the the wireless charging and the fact that it can also be a standard, you know power bank

00:53:16   So my advice would be to anybody out there who already owns a portable battery pack that's not magnetic at all. You're good

00:53:23   Just keep it. That's fine

00:53:24   And if you really want one to like simplify your travel gear

00:53:29   Maybe consider the anchor one as as a dual

00:53:33   both a pocketable portable charger and a

00:53:39   Pretty nice bedside mag safe charger overnight. Yeah

00:53:43   So and they also they make it in green and purple which is nice because I'm looking at the purple one

00:53:48   That might well who knows when travel will return but that wouldn't be a bad thing to keep in my travel bag to be honest

00:53:54   I like the hotel idea right similar to the way I travel with a fire stick 4k

00:53:58   I

00:54:00   Could I could have that in there? Yeah. Yeah, so you just you carry that just to plug into a hotel TV to 100%

00:54:07   Yeah, and and I like it because it has a VPN on it

00:54:11   So I can if I'm in another country I can access you know

00:54:13   The the content that I want to access and and the advantage over, you know a it's smaller than an Apple TV

00:54:19   But the big advantage is that it works with captive networks

00:54:22   So if you're on the hotel Wi-Fi, you can still get on that Wi-Fi

00:54:28   You don't have to you know, do the weird, you know, like creating a router thing, you know

00:54:33   Which is just that that's a that's a non-starter. So that's a and it was like $30 or something when I got it

00:54:39   It was on sale from Prime Day. This was a couple years ago and it's it's very good. Plus it has the Apple TV app

00:54:44   So I have my whole library of everything

00:54:46   So yeah, literally it stays in my bag because it's my travel thing

00:54:51   The other charger related thing I wanted to talk to you about and again, it's maybe it's my fault. Maybe I should seek out

00:54:59   guests who disagree with me, but I wanted to talk about the you and I had a brief exchange on Twitter and I was like

00:55:06   Amen, Christina

00:55:08   on the

00:55:10   Hey, we're not gonna put chargers in the box anymore. And now, you know Apple went first and yep

00:55:18   I'm still I am a fan of getting rid of the headphone jacks. I think headphone jacks

00:55:23   are old and

00:55:27   We're due to be and I there are trade-offs

00:55:29   There are times when you kind of do wish to have the simplest analog thing possible

00:55:35   but I think all things considered the trade-offs are on the side of getting rid of headphone jacks and

00:55:40   The world isn't going back

00:55:42   I feel that Apple leading the way on we're not even gonna put a charger in the box because yay environment

00:55:50   Is true right? It is true. The boxes are smaller

00:55:54   You don't need

00:55:56   Entire drawer full of chargers, but I kind of feel like the trade-offs just aren't worth it

00:56:02   Yeah, I agree and and I'm just mad

00:56:05   Okay, going back to the mag safe battery pack thing for instance

00:56:09   Okay

00:56:10   So this is this is a hundred dollar battery pack that as we've discussed is not as good as the one that is half the price

00:56:17   From anchor. Okay, and the anchor one I guarantee you there's still some sort of markup on that

00:56:22   It's not as high as apples, but I guarantee you there's some sort of markup on it

00:56:25   So Apple is is making I don't even know how much money off of that hundred dollar battery pack

00:56:30   but it's probably 90% margin I would guess right and

00:56:33   They don't include a cable in the box. They also don't include the power brick

00:56:38   So if you want to actually charge your mag safe

00:56:41   It is a charger it right is a charger

00:56:45   So if you want to actually juice that back up again, and let's say that you have bought an iPhone 12 or 12 Pro or 12 mini

00:56:53   that didn't come with the charger either and

00:56:55   The way to charge this battery you need this 20 watt or 18 watt charger or whatever

00:57:00   That's another 30 bucks. And then you also need a cable to go with it

00:57:04   Now you probably have one of those but that's that's another 20

00:57:07   it's just this the nickel and diming and I also feel like

00:57:11   And this was kind of my point in like my Twitter random and I've done this a couple times

00:57:16   You know, it was one thing and I know that many of us do have tons and tons of old adapters

00:57:22   I get that

00:57:24   But the thing is is that finally we're at the point where?

00:57:27   We have fast charging and where the phones are big enough and powerful enough that they need higher capacity

00:57:33   Charging bricks. So those tiny ones are not going to do it very quickly and or efficiently so

00:57:38   You're basically telling people. Yeah

00:57:41   Thanks for buying this $1,500 phone that we're super excited about you can get this high, you know fast

00:57:46   You know charger stuff, but we're not gonna include one on the box the one that you've got also

00:57:51   Oh, this is the funny thing too the cable that we do include in the box will not work with your old charger

00:57:56   Like your old charging brick, right?

00:57:59   Right because the the one in the box now has USB C and all the old chargers are USB USB A so

00:58:06   Like to me that's that's just shitty because in I think you're at that point you were basically telling someone

00:58:13   Yeah, you're gonna either need to continue to use an old cable

00:58:17   Which one of the best things about getting a new phone is getting a new cable it might you know because the the Apple cables

00:58:24   Suck I buy anchor ones and some other brands, but you know, we all know that they fall apart

00:58:28   We've all had that bad experience happen

00:58:30   And even if they were the highest quality cable after a year of constant use like I don't know

00:58:33   It's one of my favorite parts of getting a new phone

00:58:35   I know I'm gonna get a brand new cable and I'm like good. This is gonna be a good one

00:58:39   It's gonna be like one that charges well

00:58:41   and and it doesn't you know like stop working because it's bent a certain way and and it doesn't fray and it's gonna

00:58:47   Shock me or whatever. So

00:58:49   You either have to buy a new, you know, use use your old grimy cable or you have to buy another brick anyway

00:58:54   And to your point what most people are going to do is they're gonna balk at spending $30

00:58:58   On a charging brick as they should because it's obscene and they're gonna buy a crappy one

00:59:04   Which is not going to work as well. So I just and you're paying $1,500 for a phone in some cases. It's just

00:59:11   Yeah, I do feel that the your point about the mag safe pack not including a charger

00:59:18   It would make sense if the phone still had a charger, right?

00:59:23   Because then the argument would be the only purpose of owning this this mag safe

00:59:29   battery pack is if you own an iPhone 12 and

00:59:33   If you own an iPhone 12

00:59:36   You already have a charger that would charge in in the theoretical world where the iPhone 12 came with a good charger

00:59:42   You already have a charger so you don't need another one and I could see that sure

00:59:47   but if neither has a charger and then it feels like a ripoff and I

00:59:52   really do I wonder like what the

00:59:56   typical person

00:59:59   buys like what is the

01:00:02   Even the a typical like what is the less than average charger, right? It's like the old George Carlin bit that hey

01:00:08   If you ever think you know

01:00:10   If you ever get upset about how stupid the average person is think about the fact that half of the people are dumber than than that

01:00:17   guy

01:00:18   It's like if the average charger that people buy is not that great. What's what is the 25th percentile, right?

01:00:26   Yeah, I mean, I'm guessing in a lot of cases. It's people are either using what they have around

01:00:31   they might be using an old thing that came with an old Android phone or that came with like a

01:00:35   Fire tablet or a Kindle or something, you know and in some cases it comes down to because I'm thinking about my sister in this case

01:00:42   She's somebody who always loses her cables and whatnot. And so she actually ironically I think uses a

01:00:48   Battery pack that is then plugged into the wall and then she has the charging cable coming out of that

01:00:54   Which you know is like a ridiculous thing, but but in that case, it's okay

01:00:59   And then I think about people like my dad who I've had to order

01:01:02   You know charging stuff for before because he's misplaced things and and he buys a new phone maybe every five years

01:01:07   And so they do not have they are not me

01:01:10   They do not have a million Gann chargers and and other things all over the place

01:01:14   Like I'm a typical and so I'm not mad for me like I'm fine

01:01:17   I'm mad for normal people who don't have this stuff and then have to go to Walmart or the gas station or

01:01:24   Best Buy and and then get you know

01:01:27   suckered into they see the $30 thing and they're like, I'm not doing that I'm gonna get this $10 one and

01:01:32   Look, there might be some good $10 ones out there, right?

01:01:35   Like if you get one from anchor or somebody else, but there are plenty of Chinese knockoff ones that you don't know where they're from

01:01:41   Actually, you know what? It probably is John and this is the scariest part

01:01:45   It is probably people buying stuff off of Amazon

01:01:48   that looks like the Apple chargers and that are the fake ones that that Apple has spent so much time trying to shut down that we

01:01:55   Know when people take them apart are dangerous and don't follow specifications and are just bad

01:02:00   Honestly, that's probably what most of them are is there the counterfeit Apple chargers?

01:02:05   I think and I think that the common person's intuitive sense is wrong, which is intuitively I

01:02:12   Think that people think well if it charges my phone at all, then that's fine that that's it

01:02:18   It either works or it doesn't and if it works then my phone gets charged and that's it and they don't really think about

01:02:24   How fast it is how efficient it is. Is it even safe?

01:02:28   you know and you don't see I'm not trying to claim that there are stories about people whose houses burned down because they bought a

01:02:35   Cheap charger off Amazon. It doesn't seem to be a problem. It seems, you know overall

01:02:39   It all fairly safe, but in terms of efficiency, there are big big differences

01:02:45   there really are and you know, it's not I'm not trying to say that Apple's prices are

01:02:50   you know, I

01:02:53   Don't think that the magsafe thing has 90% margins like you said, but I'm sure it has high margins

01:02:58   And I think that Apple's what do they cost like the regular ones are like 30 bucks, right? It's yeah

01:03:04   You know, they're making some money on that

01:03:05   I think the anchor ones are probably a pretty good idea of hey

01:03:10   This is a healthy profitable business selling things for a profit and with very safely

01:03:16   Engineered well-designed chargers. I think that's probably a fair price and if you're paying less

01:03:22   Probably isn't and I think it's less about safety and probably more about efficiency. It's surprising to me

01:03:28   I always said this like when people gave Apple a very hard time for years that the that the charger they did include

01:03:34   Was the little 5 watt charger?

01:03:37   Just how many people preferred that charger because of the size

01:03:42   Right, right. And and that was kind of another thing that I that frustrates me

01:03:47   We are finally at the point where the Gann chargers are small enough and are available and are actually fairly inexpensive

01:03:53   So these companies if they wanted to it would cost them a few dollars more

01:03:59   They could certainly pass the price on to the consumer if they wanted to but it would cost them a couple of dollars more

01:04:05   They could include a Gann charger in the box. That is still that same size and and is the same efficiency

01:04:12   They don't and instead, you know, the argument is that it's about the environment and that's bullshit

01:04:18   It's not about the environment at all

01:04:21   Because this was a member this a friend of mine on Twitter when this happened in September and I was ranting about this for the first

01:04:29   time

01:04:30   He when he ordered his his iPhone through Apple through like his business account

01:04:35   He got an email from the Apple salesperson saying hey, we just noticed that you didn't have you know

01:04:41   A charger or cable attached to your order, you know, the new ones don't come with it

01:04:45   So I can go ahead and price this for you if you want

01:04:48   So don't tell me that this is a green initiative when your salespeople are already looking at this as an opportunity to upsell

01:04:55   The one environmental thing I could maybe see the argument with is that it does mean the box is now smaller

01:05:03   And so you can have a more more volume

01:05:05   iPhones in a shipping container. Okay granted

01:05:10   But again, I don't think that the impetus there is it all about the environment?

01:05:14   It's all about saving Apple money and Samsung money and Google money and whoever else money on

01:05:19   Shipping freight like they don't care about the environmental impact

01:05:25   That that skipping the charger is going to have it if they did

01:05:28   I mean, I think that you could make an argument that including a higher

01:05:31   Like quality, you know longer-lasting Gann charger. That's a higher capacity

01:05:37   Would mean that people wouldn't have to continue buying for their other devices because it's not like the iPhone is the only

01:05:43   USB, you know power brick that we use that you could be like, hey

01:05:47   I don't have to buy a bunch of these I can just use my iPhone brick with these other things too. I

01:05:51   Don't know. I remember as a kid. I don't remember which car I think it was my mom had a Plymouth Horizon

01:05:58   Remember it just might be before your time the Plymouth Horizon

01:06:02   I forget the Dodge version the dot Dodge Omni was the exact same car but

01:06:08   Plymouth and Dodge were like two divisions of Chrysler. It was sort of like a Volkswagen rabbit

01:06:13   It was a hatchback but not even a station wagon size sort of a compact hatchback car and it it had

01:06:20   paper

01:06:22   floor mats paper literally just paper because it was a you know, like a

01:06:27   Very low-cost car. It was probably like the cheapest card

01:06:31   the Plymouth made and

01:06:33   You know, my mom didn't drive long distances

01:06:35   They wanted to buy the cheap car but wanted a new car and I remember as a little kid

01:06:41   they got paper floor mats because they the real floor mats were extra and my parents like I will just will buy floor mats on

01:06:48   Our own at a store and they did, you know, my parents did buy floor mats for the car

01:06:52   But they didn't get the ones from Plymouth because they were so expensive and it's like okay

01:06:58   It was though. I remember as just it's a sort of thing. It's you know it

01:07:03   Informed my entire life right that I just noticed things like that and thought I

01:07:09   Get it that the I knew as a kid. This is not like an expensive car. This isn't a luxury car

01:07:16   You know

01:07:17   But it is a new car and it was exciting and fun that we had a new car and it had a new car smell

01:07:22   It felt so cheap that they that they like let my parents drive off the lot with

01:07:29   Literally paper floor mats that and they even had like a bad logo on it, you know, like the Plymouth logo

01:07:35   It's like but I kind of get it for a low-cost car

01:07:39   But it's like totally Mercedes is not going to let you drive off the lot with paper for you, right?

01:07:45   Thank you. And that's the thing that's Apple, right? Yes. That's the thing

01:07:50   It's like I'm sorry, but there is a part of me that gets frustrated that I'm spending again

01:07:54   $1,500 once taxed and an Apple care and whatever is involved and I don't even buy the the 512 phone. I buy the 256

01:08:01   But it's a $1,500 phone, you know to get the the pro max right or whatever

01:08:06   That's more than a laptop. It's a lot of that's a lot of money and and you know that that's that's for many people gonna be

01:08:14   the most expensive

01:08:16   Electronic that they buy over the years, right? Oh without question and and any anything that compares to it would be something that they would keep

01:08:23   For far longer like if they're gonna percent by like a new home stereo setup

01:08:28   You get your home audio setup and maybe you spend more than $1,500. So although probably not honestly

01:08:34   No, honestly, probably not and so at this point, yeah

01:08:37   So I'm spending this much money on this and you can't even include the charger

01:08:41   Like I I think what they should do I think what Apple should do is that they should make it when you buy a new iPhone

01:08:49   if you would like

01:08:51   Have the checkbox off by default, but if you check the box then they'll include a free charger and cable

01:08:59   You know in their own boxes

01:09:01   So if you don't need it

01:09:03   You don't have to check it and you you you just get your slim iPhone box. That is truly it is a lot

01:09:09   It's it's half the size the box. It is which is great. And and so no, I think that that's a great solution

01:09:15   I like that. I also like apparently

01:09:17   Roku offers a way to get an HDMI extender

01:09:21   For free from their website and they just have an easy page

01:09:24   so if you need that you just go to the page and and you fill out a form and they send it to you like

01:09:30   If you I like your approach better, like I think like when you order it

01:09:34   It's off by default, but you can check a box to get the the you know

01:09:38   Brick if that's what you need. I would not take the box. I would not take the charger. I have I have enough chargers

01:09:44   yeah, and at this point I may or I may not it would depend on what charger it is right because

01:09:49   Like honestly, so if it's gonna be the 18-month, maybe I would but maybe I wouldn't right. Um, I

01:09:55   I sold my my friend because I forgot to send mine back as part of the you know, trade-in program or whatever

01:10:02   That happened sometimes where I was just like, oh I forgot to mill the phone back in

01:10:06   And so I paid the full price and then you know bought the new phone

01:10:09   so I still had my iPhone 11 Pro Max and

01:10:13   We found out that a friend of mine was she still had an iPhone 8 and it was broken

01:10:18   It was busted and a mutual friend of ours sent me a photo of her phone and she was appalled

01:10:23   And I was like, I'll take care of this. And so I sold her my iPhone Pro 11 max for

01:10:30   The same price that Apple was going to give me to trade it in like like five hundred fifty dollars

01:10:35   Right. So she got a really good deal on on a very high-end phone, right?

01:10:40   relatively recent

01:10:43   Relatively recent very high upgrades very high and big upgrade from what she had before

01:10:47   well when I mailed it to her, you know, I had the box and I opened it up and the chargers there and I'm like

01:10:53   there was the thing there was a part of me where I was like, I'll just include the charger and then I was like

01:10:57   No, I don't have at least from the Apple branded ones. Like I have a lot of gant chargers and stuff

01:11:03   I was like, this is this is the this is the good one, right? Like I didn't get one with my iPhone 12

01:11:08   So sorry Allison, I I ganked your your charger

01:11:13   but you know, but like I had kind of that kind of like a thing where I was like I

01:11:17   again for the travel bag because you don't know there are there times when you need a good USB plug that has high power and

01:11:24   You know, I don't have a ton of those. I

01:11:27   Recently got some some stackable gant chargers that I like a lot

01:11:30   But again, like it's just one of those things to just have in the in the bag to always have for emergencies

01:11:35   So I may or I may not get it but I like that idea a lot of being able to choose probably next time

01:11:40   I probably wouldn't get it

01:11:41   I think the alternative if you didn't want to do that would be to include in the box if you needed to get one

01:11:47   You know have a coupon or something that you could redeem at the Apple Store or on the Apple Store website

01:11:53   Yeah

01:11:54   I'm not saying that anybody should any time of the day should be able to stroll into the Apple Store and just raise your hand

01:12:00   And say give me I'm not saying that either

01:12:02   I think like you would need to have like but like bond tied to your phone

01:12:05   But yeah one for one with the purchase of a new phone because they're their cheapest phone

01:12:10   The iPhone SE is 400 bucks, which is still that

01:12:14   $400 for an electronic gizmo. No exactly and it's high-end it is and think about this way like

01:12:22   $400 is more than a lot of Chromebooks. Can you imagine a Chromebook not coming with a charger?

01:12:28   Paper formats Christina paper for us

01:12:31   We were talking before about how people are using their phones increasingly as their primary computing thing, which is true

01:12:37   Can you imagine buying even an iPad and like the lowest in iPad, you know cost about the same as the lowest in iPhone se?

01:12:45   The iPad comes with the charger

01:12:48   So why do you think that is do you think they're going to get rid of the charger with the iPads or the iPad will always?

01:12:54   Keep the charger. I don't know. I wonder how much I guess maybe density they'd be able to shrink from the box

01:13:00   If they got rid of it

01:13:02   And if they needed other things like I don't know in theory an iPad box could be

01:13:08   Extremely thin it could be true. It could be like the shape and size of the

01:13:13   The box the case that the keyboard comes in. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, you're right

01:13:18   It could I wonder sometimes if maybe they have more to it just so they can have like more like

01:13:24   Support, you know

01:13:26   Because you're woman the when the iPad Pro that the 11 and the 12 inch at the ones the most recent redesign

01:13:32   When that came out a few years ago

01:13:34   They were people with the 11 inch models who were like bent out of the box because yes, then yeah

01:13:40   So I wonder if that's one of those things where they're like, okay, we don't want it too thin

01:13:44   We need to have some sort of you know protection

01:13:47   So we might as well stick it

01:13:50   So we might as well still have the charger but that's a good question like I think and I and the only

01:13:55   the only other rationale I could come up with would be

01:13:58   That they see the iPad as a computer and even Apple knows that there is no possible way

01:14:05   You can sell a computer without a charger and not have people revolt, right? I

01:14:10   Think that maybe where the iPhone suffers that the sort of bean counting mentality of we can double our shipping

01:14:19   I mean there is an environmental advantage to shipping the iPhone in the smaller box

01:14:23   But also it is yes far more profitable you put twice as many iPhones on the same boat coming over from China

01:14:29   I think where the iPhone suffers is that you can

01:14:33   Live day to day and not be too annoyed using a 5 watt charger with an iPhone

01:14:41   Yeah, right and it's like because most people charge overnight and they go through the day and

01:14:48   Most people get through every day all days with without their phone iPhone running out of battery

01:14:54   So 5 watts is fine

01:14:56   5 watts is not going to work to charge an iPad and it certainly is not a I don't even know I don't even know what

01:15:03   Happens if you charge try to charge like a MacBook Air with a file

01:15:07   Yeah, I don't I don't think it'll even power on so I feel like that's that's where the iPhone gets hurt is well

01:15:14   If people are left to their own choices and they just use their old 5 watt charger

01:15:19   Because they have one already or they have a couple because they bought a couple iPhones before or they just go to the gas station

01:15:25   Or the corner store and just buy whatever they have behind the counter for 10 bucks, which is probably a 5 watt charger

01:15:32   Yeah, well that that they'll be fine

01:15:34   Whereas I don't think you can get away with that if they ship the iPad without a charger and then people try to charge it

01:15:41   With a 5 watt charger. No, you're exactly right. They wouldn't be able to yeah. No, you're right

01:15:45   They wouldn't it would be so slow. It might even power on. No, I think you're right

01:15:48   And that is the problem with the iPhone. I guess my argument is gonna be like at a certain point

01:15:52   It's going to become more of a detriment. You're selling this premium product and Apple has changed the price. They have very firmly

01:15:59   designated that the iPhone has a higher price point than it used to even and it is an expensive device and and part of that

01:16:07   I think was predicated on the idea that Apple knows that people upgrade every three years rather than the previous

01:16:12   Maybe two people keep their stuff longer. So I

01:16:15   Get that but it's also like okay, but when you buy this new thing

01:16:19   Don't you want to feel like you're getting some sort of upgrade? Yeah, totally and to your point

01:16:24   you know paper formats, it's just

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01:18:32   Alright Christina, let's dig into the child safety stuff at Apple. I

01:18:36   Put it off, but we got to get into it

01:18:40   It's interesting

01:18:42   With the irregular nature of my podcast at this point at all. It doesn't feel like old news, but it's not wet ink

01:18:50   News no, no, it was interesting because I think that a lot of and you've talked about it on dithering - I think at this point

01:18:57   the a lot of the

01:19:00   conversation of the debates about whether it's a good or a bad idea

01:19:03   Have kind of shifted to now whether or not the algorithm is actually secure or safe or whether or not it can be reverse-engineered

01:19:11   And and and whether it should be used at least that's what it feels like to me

01:19:16   Let's talk about the iMessage feature first. So the iMessage feature and again even after all of the hey

01:19:24   I think people are conflating these two things as stuff. People are still conflating. I see it every day

01:19:29   I still see articles where they conflate them

01:19:32   The iMessage feature is only for children

01:19:36   only

01:19:38   if they're in an iCloud family and

01:19:42   The only way anything ever leaves their device is if they're 12 or younger

01:19:48   So if the if you're a parent with a teenager, you know

01:19:52   13 to 17 and they're in your iCloud family

01:19:55   You still have to opt into this feature when it comes out which will be sometime later this year with iOS 15

01:20:01   But for teenagers it uses machine learning

01:20:06   In iMessage only in iMessage not in mail not in their photo library

01:20:12   not in

01:20:14   WhatsApp or

01:20:15   Facebook messenger or any other thing just iMessage

01:20:19   It will try to detect sexually explicit

01:20:23   photos either incoming or outgoing and

01:20:27   Give them a warning. Hey, are you sure you want to you know, look at this or you sure you want to send this?

01:20:34   But nothing ever goes to the parent for a teenager and then if they're 12 or under it's the same machine learning

01:20:41   that will try to identify these images that are sexually explicit and

01:20:46   If parents still have to opt their kids in and if they do and the kid will get a warning and then they get like

01:20:55   A second warning and if they still go through then the parent gets a notification that says hey, you know the kid looked at

01:21:01   At this image or sent an image

01:21:04   different than the the

01:21:07   CSAM detection which isn't about machine learning and trying to identify it right that that that that's a neural hash and comparing

01:21:15   You know the bits and however many pieces they have right this is actually AI which is why they can apply it

01:21:20   I think so that the messages after they've come in they're able to run their own neural nets

01:21:24   against it and and figure out

01:21:27   with probably a high degree of certainty because those are not difficult images to usually decipher to say

01:21:33   This is you know a dong or this is breasts and and we're warning you

01:21:38   There's so there's two angles of criticism for this particular feature

01:21:42   And I had an interesting Twitter thread with your co-host of rocket Brianna Wu

01:21:48   She was concerned about having grown up in a very conservative US south that this could hurt

01:21:55   some kids who have

01:22:01   It could be abusive parents could be parents with very restrictive views on yeah

01:22:08   LGBT

01:22:10   Kids queer kids in in conservative households could definitely this would be the sort of thing where if your parents saw something that you were

01:22:16   Sharing and maybe not even queer kids

01:22:18   Maybe just kids who are in very conservative households who don't want you engaging in any sort of you know

01:22:24   sexually charged or even remotely adult content at all like

01:22:29   This this could get kids who are in those those households, you know in in trouble and it potentially lead to you know

01:22:36   Punishment abuse whatever. Yeah

01:22:38   What Brianna wrote opened my eyes to it and that the key insight that that she offered was

01:22:45   Kids are one of the reasons we like we don't let kids vote, you know, because they're kids they make bad decisions

01:22:52   Right, and so like the the logical angle is well wait all of the kids

01:22:58   Whether they're under 13 or teenagers they get like two levels of warnings to go through before it proceeds and

01:23:05   You know if if like let's say a 12 year old right right on the cusp, you know

01:23:10   Which yeah would be the most likely and they get two levels of warning. So if they still go through with it

01:23:16   What what is the kid thinking? Well, guess what kids make bad decisions, right?

01:23:20   They do and and and I would go even further I would say, you know kids make bad decisions, but also

01:23:26   There's a bigger question which is why why is it Apple's business? I

01:23:30   sort of see that and

01:23:33   So of these two controversial features this I message one is is the one that

01:23:39   That I feel more

01:23:43   Hmm, I don't know and and I think what you just said is this Apple's business right and because if it is

01:23:52   Why why I message only why not email why you know if they can use Twitter DMS they could use Facebook Messenger

01:24:00   Instagram of course, you know is super popular, you know, yep

01:24:04   Signal what's app telegram?

01:24:07   There there are a million of them. I think yik-yak apparently just came back

01:24:11   Although I don't think that that has I'm making fun of you. Yeah, they're you know, snapchat tick-tock

01:24:16   like there are a lot of places where where kids can exchange messages and

01:24:21   and apples not going after them and I

01:24:24   Wonder is like my big question when I heard about this and I'll be honest with you. I actually

01:24:28   I have a lot of problems with with the CCM stuff and I have but a lot of those problems

01:24:34   I think are kind of theoretical and insofar as you know, we're making you know have questions about

01:24:41   The onus of those databases and how those things are controlled and what powers Apple, you know may have to

01:24:51   agree with I also worry

01:24:53   With some of the recent things about like having faith in how good this neural network in neural hashing stuff is

01:25:00   I trust that Apple has some of the best and brightest on it

01:25:02   But also, you know people will find ways around this stuff and you look at false positives

01:25:07   But those are more theoretical and and more like hypothetical in terms of like what could governments how could they abuse this?

01:25:13   When I look at the I message stuff, I have a much more visceral

01:25:17   This doesn't feel right and and the question I personally keep having is

01:25:21   Why is this an important business for Apple to be in like why does Apple have to have a part in this?

01:25:28   Frankly nanny state kind of stuff

01:25:30   Like is it why would this not be something that they could allow a third party like Disney who has circle and there are a number

01:25:37   of other services

01:25:39   That do various, you know monitoring and more sophisticated ways than like the old net nanny stuff from a million years ago

01:25:45   Like why can't they pass this off to third parties to manage whether it's through an MDM?

01:25:52   certificate that gets installed

01:25:54   Which then could have the right to maybe you know filter messages the same way and also look at some other apps

01:26:01   like why does Apple have to do this is I guess a thing I don't have a good answer to and I I

01:26:06   It just it feels encroaching in a way that I don't like I

01:26:10   Agree with everything you just said

01:26:15   Theoreticals aside and we will get to them as we continue this segment of the show

01:26:20   the theoretical problems with the c-sam detection

01:26:23   With the eye that this is why I feel more

01:26:28   mmm and about this iMessage feature is even if it works exactly as

01:26:35   Described and I have no reason to think it won't but even if that's it and it never gets expanded and there's never any situation

01:26:43   Where governments around the world put the squeeze on Apple to say hey

01:26:47   Can you use this thing that detects sexually explicit images in iMessage to also detect?

01:26:53   Blank, whatever blank is even if that never happens and this feature only works exactly as described

01:27:01   Is it a good idea and I'm really struggling to figure out why anybody would think it's a good idea

01:27:08   What is it going to solve? I mean, maybe I'm wrong

01:27:12   I mean, maybe there are I know the word that keeps getting talked about is grooming

01:27:17   they know that kids get groomed by sexual predators and I think it's sort of like the analogy of the

01:27:26   Slowly boiling frog, you know that you right you start by

01:27:31   become desensitized to it and yeah texting inappropriate words and

01:27:37   inappropriate ideas and then it escalates to inappropriate photos and then further in a probe

01:27:44   You know even more inappropriate photos. I

01:27:46   Get it

01:27:48   But is is having iMessage detected through machine learning the way for parents to?

01:27:55   Deal with this I that doesn't seem right to me at all regular listens listeners of the show

01:28:02   Would agree I don't offer a lot of parenting advice and and I do think that it's

01:28:07   What is more personal than your family, you know? Yeah, you know and there are bad parents and that it's

01:28:14   People who I think we can all you know, abusiveness we can all agree is is bad

01:28:19   Right and but there's you know, there's a broad spectrum of parental philosophies that that one can

01:28:26   Strongly disagree with but it's also not your business

01:28:31   Right. I mean, I mean, I think that's ultimately the thing for me. There are bad parents

01:28:34   There is way that harm could be done and and I try to think about like, okay

01:28:38   Well, what's even in the best-case scenario like okay, you are thinking that you're maybe stopping grooming and maybe you could stop some of it

01:28:45   Right. I'm not trying to discount that although I would argue that by making this feature public the way that they are

01:28:50   What you're really doing is just pushing those groomers to platforms like discord, which is what the kids are using anyway

01:28:57   Or a signal or a telegram or whatever the case may be like they will just use

01:29:02   Another app I message is really sticky and we all love it

01:29:06   And it's the thing that I think is probably

01:29:08   Like the strongest thing that Apple has in its arsenal in terms of keeping people locked into the ecosystem. It is it is great

01:29:14   however

01:29:16   if if Apple thinks that it is like a

01:29:19   Guarantee that that's the that is the center of how teens and and even like younger kids communicate. I I

01:29:26   Don't have a ton of experience with with the zoomers, but from what experience I do have that's not necessarily true

01:29:32   Right, like a lot of them are all in on iMessage and I get that but a lot of them especially

01:29:36   After having to spend the last year, you know remote like discord and other things are common

01:29:42   And if there are apps that you know, and your friends are being like this is the one that our parents can't monitor

01:29:47   That's gonna be the one you use right like I you know, I'm old but I when I was in middle school

01:29:54   we all had AOL instant messenger and we all had ICQ and

01:29:57   if

01:30:00   If there had been a way where I thought that my mom

01:30:03   Could have been alerted of stuff that I sent in those messages. Even if it was completely innocuous a

01:30:11   That would really feel like a violation and gross and be my first instinct would be to be like, okay

01:30:17   Well, let's find another app to use that my mom can't monitor

01:30:21   I feel like that the idea that it's gonna stop that the grooming is is misguided and then to your point

01:30:27   Yeah, we you know, I just I don't think it's apples business to make these decisions for parents

01:30:32   I'll say this too, you know, I remember what it was like to be a kid and maybe I was a you know

01:30:36   Kind of an asshole. I'm sure that I was but what I would do if I knew that this feature was a thing

01:30:42   Okay, so it's not gonna work and it's not gonna knock on me if I'm 13

01:30:47   But if I'm 12, you know, it's good. It's gonna knock on my friends or whatever the day that I turned 13

01:30:53   I'm sending my 12 year old friends

01:30:55   Tons and tons of Shrek porn like that's what I'm doing because I want to get them in trouble, you know

01:31:01   right and if it's like Shrek porn instead of like

01:31:04   Worse

01:31:07   What's the worst kid?

01:31:08   Are their parents gonna call your parents and say Chris?

01:31:11   Send him and my mom would be like Christina. What are you doing?

01:31:17   You know, she might yell at me she might be in TV restriction, but it's not me in the world

01:31:20   But you know what? I wouldn't know and and then this is this is coming into hypotheticals

01:31:24   But I think you know Brie brought this up and this is something important to know too

01:31:27   Kids don't always know the situation their friends are in. Yes, and and and this in the situation

01:31:32   Like I know that like no matter what I had sent her did unless it was something that was illegal

01:31:37   Right or like violent or like just you know, something that was just not okay my mom and even then my mom would support me

01:31:43   She would like get me like the help that I would need it, right? I would never be a situation

01:31:47   What my parents would like violently like do anything to me, but I don't know that about all of my friends

01:31:53   I don't know how their parents react

01:31:55   So if I send something I think it's funny and my mom might have rolled her eyes

01:32:00   my friend Nikki her conservative parents might see it and

01:32:05   might have a completely different reaction and and Nikki's life at home might be very different or or

01:32:12   You know parental situations can be so complicated, right?

01:32:16   You know, you can have divorced parents that with a serious philosophical divide on yes how to parent

01:32:23   preteens and teens and

01:32:25   You as their friend might

01:32:28   Probably are

01:32:32   Largely unaware of it, right?

01:32:34   And maybe they don't even you know

01:32:35   Cuz maybe your friend doesn't share that with you because they're embarrassed by it

01:32:39   Right, right and because there are things like we don't really know ever

01:32:42   you know what sometimes we know what happens people's home lives, but a lot of times we don't and

01:32:46   And so and I think it's easy for kids to assume. Well, my parents are like this

01:32:50   So everyone else's must be I was lucky in in some regards. I have a really great mom and my mom is

01:32:57   She's retired now, but she's a she's a child psychologist and she worked in the in a school system and

01:33:03   My friends and it was frustrating to me at the time

01:33:06   I'm grateful for it now, but I had friends who like would come over not to see me but to like talk to my mom and

01:33:13   You know and and I'd be like can we hang out and they're you know in the kitchen, you know privately with my mom talking

01:33:19   But I I was lucky I guess in the fact that when I was in middle school, which is the age

01:33:23   I think that really this is what concerns me. It's it's not like the elementary age kids

01:33:27   It's like the 12 year olds. It's the 11 12 year olds the kids who are in sixth and seventh grade and

01:33:30   And I know that like, you know a lot of those kids

01:33:34   I I was able to learn at that age like

01:33:36   Most people a lot of kids didn't not I'm not gonna say most but I'm gonna say a lot of kids

01:33:40   didn't have a mom like my mom and didn't feel like they had anybody they could open up to and talk to about difficult things and

01:33:46   I'm glad my mom was there for them, but I wouldn't have known that

01:33:50   You know, like I wouldn't have known that like the way that my parents act about stuff is different like

01:33:56   You know

01:33:58   My my best friend in high school Andrew is gay and his mom when she found out and I think she found out through some

01:34:05   Sort of email or something on the computer. I don't know what it was

01:34:08   But she sent him to one of those conversion camps and it was it was terrible and it and you know

01:34:14   He had a really hard time

01:34:16   You know kind of dealing with that and struggling with his sexuality and acceptance and other stuff and you know

01:34:21   I think that he probably would have been older than maybe this age of the iMessage stuff

01:34:26   You know his mom monitoring but maybe he would have been 12. I don't know

01:34:29   I just I can't help but think about how bad it would be if

01:34:34   Stuff that he was, you know struggling with was outed to his mom

01:34:39   By the person that makes his phone

01:34:41   To me it's it's like are you is Apple trying to draw a circle around?

01:34:48   stuff that's bad or drawing a circle around what's good and

01:34:53   And with the iMessage feature in particular it's like they're trying to draw a circle around iMessage and say iMessage is

01:35:00   Good and safe

01:35:03   Right, and then it just leaves it. It's an infinite continuum of things

01:35:08   that parents could

01:35:11   object to that are going on and you you know it it I

01:35:15   Do think I know everybody likes to think that they live in the most interesting times

01:35:19   But it is it's more tricky to be a parent in in today's world than it used to be

01:35:26   It's it's because because of phones and right the internet it is definitely

01:35:32   More complicated and and there are some bad things that technically

01:35:38   Seriously, technically could not have happened. You know you when I was a teenager when I was 12 years old

01:35:43   Nobody could send me a picture

01:35:45   Digitally you know they I guess so you didn't have access right you didn't have access to this sort of stuff

01:35:50   But at the same time you know I could talk on the phone and and somebody I could have an inappropriate

01:35:56   conversation with somebody a

01:35:58   Peer somebody my age or an adult over the phone

01:36:02   But that was understood and you know it's certainly a far narrower

01:36:08   spectrum than all the things that are possible today and trying to draw a circle around iMessage and saying we're gonna

01:36:14   identify this just seems it I just don't I just don't see the point and and it it's

01:36:20   Yes in theory and everything's trade-offs. It could help catch something right there. It's

01:36:27   But is it worth the the even even just the knock on Apple's brand of being yeah

01:36:36   Private you know everybody is mocking them for the what happens on your iPhone your iPhone

01:36:43   As they should frankly if you're going to make that marketing message if that is going to be the thing that you sell if you're

01:36:49   Going to make money on that and you're going to hold that up as as if not only

01:36:53   You know this is our values, but we are better

01:36:56   Because of this because that that was that's the implicit thing. It's not just that this is our values, but we are better than Facebook

01:37:02   We are better than Google. We are better than Amazon

01:37:04   We are better than whoever that is the message if you're going to make that statement

01:37:08   And I think it's entirely fair to mock them when their other statements

01:37:13   Run counter to that so I'll contrast that that as we segue into the C Sam detection

01:37:20   Where to me that's where Apple is drawing a circle around something that they're saying is unambiguously bad, which is collecting

01:37:27   known child pornography and other abusive imagery and

01:37:33   We collectively can say yes. This is a rare point of almost universal

01:37:40   Agreeance this is bad. We can all agree that this is bad. We can all agree that this is material that does not need to exist

01:37:45   yes, and so

01:37:47   Like I said like that that contrast of let's just assume for this just for this segment of the conversation it works exactly as

01:37:56   Described I think that this is a good thing and and it's a good idea

01:38:03   And if it does work as described it it'll only

01:38:07   Make the world a better place now

01:38:10   You can say well

01:38:11   It won't make it a much better place because if it ships and and then all the people who collect child

01:38:18   See Sam material. They're just not going to use iCloud photos. They'll know you know, what's the point if they know not to do it?

01:38:26   it

01:38:28   Based on the numbers being reported by like Facebook and Google from stuff online

01:38:33   No, a lot of these people

01:38:35   They just know they don't care. They don't either don't care or they're they don't understand. They don't know

01:38:41   They're you know, maybe yeah

01:38:44   They are I they are doing it. Yeah, I actually yeah, I agree with that. I actually think that that's a

01:38:51   Not a spurious argument

01:38:53   I actually think that this is something that if done correctly and everything works as it's supposed to

01:38:58   Would cut down and on or not maybe cut down but it would catch a lot of this behavior because

01:39:05   Most criminals are dumb

01:39:07   Predators are usually not the most sophisticated and

01:39:12   And maybe driven by impulses, right? I think some of it also comes down to people believing that they won't get caught

01:39:19   You know, I do that even if they know that that Apple can do this. Oh, I'm not gonna get caught

01:39:24   It's not a big deal right? Not my Sam

01:39:28   Exactly. Mine is good. I got mine is good. I'm so much better than everybody else, you know

01:39:33   I so I actually think that that that

01:39:35   People are gonna move to other things. Look the big hoarders and the big people sure but but the

01:39:41   The people who I think are like like the like the Josh Duggar type of people and that sort of thing

01:39:47   These are not the smartest people out there

01:39:49   And I do feel like this is the sort of thing that would be able to trip them up

01:39:53   Which I don't think is a bad thing if as you say we are making the assumption

01:39:57   that everything is done exactly as it should the point is not and

01:40:01   Apple would be the first people to make it clear that that's not even on their radar

01:40:06   The point is not to keep every single iCloud user

01:40:10   from ever

01:40:13   Collecting seesam in any way shape or form and and so if your argument is hey, this isn't going this is so easily

01:40:20   Circumvented this isn't going to stop it at all that the point isn't to stop at all

01:40:25   The point is if you can anything you do catch that is actually legitimate

01:40:29   This accurately pegged. Yes, you've collected known seesam. It is a good thing. There's two angles on it

01:40:37   There's the initial knee-jerk

01:40:39   Reaction which and literally this is the headline

01:40:41   I'm not even putting words in the EFF's mouth

01:40:44   But they even said they use the field of dream slogan if you build it, they will come that if you build this system

01:40:49   oppressive regimes

01:40:53   Around the world are going to demand that Apple

01:40:56   fingerprint other databases, right so that China could say make sure you know, here's it here's a

01:41:02   Thousand known photos of the Dalai Lama and we would like to know every single person who has one of these thousand photos in their

01:41:10   iCloud library

01:41:12   I

01:41:13   I

01:41:15   Disagree with that. I I don't think that that is going to happen

01:41:19   I really don't I would be willing to bet on it because if an oppressive regime

01:41:24   wanted to

01:41:26   Coerce Apple or any other company that operates within their country into

01:41:32   surveilling on users for the benefit of the government

01:41:36   The fingerprint hashing is not the way to do it that it's the it's the most convoluted and worst way to do it

01:41:44   Right, it would be the machine learning which are fine

01:41:48   Yeah, I was gonna say I actually think that they would get the iMessage would be an easier vector there

01:41:53   And and I will also point out that you know malware was already used by the Chinese government against the you guys on

01:42:00   iPhones

01:42:01   The the Chinese government already installed malware to track the you guys and you know, yeah using like exploits, right?

01:42:09   Yeah, yes using exploits not through Apple's help, but no not through Apple's help

01:42:13   So through other things which which I think is a good point not through Apple's help. They were able to do this anyway

01:42:17   So I think that but but I think that cuts both ways, right? I think on the one hand

01:42:21   That shows without Apple's help. They were still able to do this on the other hand

01:42:27   I do think that shows like these are the things they're willing to do

01:42:30   and so I think part of the EFS argument which I don't disagree with is that if you are already making these

01:42:35   provisions on your device and and within your your databases and within the way that your system is set up to do these sorts of

01:42:42   Checks that is opening up potentially another hole in another vector that could be abused not even through policy

01:42:49   But through exploits and through other things and I don't think that that is false on its face

01:42:54   Hmm. I I think it's worth scrutiny and and I think that the fact that we collectively

01:43:02   including the EFF and privacy advocates and encryption experts are

01:43:07   Plutinizing it is all a good thing. I just don't think that it's it's likely to be abused in that way

01:43:14   And and there's a feature so we're talking about this these two upcoming features one for iMessage one for

01:43:21   fingerprint detection of see salmon in iCloud photos

01:43:25   but the feature that to me if if this was going to be a problem of

01:43:31   Coercing Apple and others to do this is the machine learning that's already been in iCloud

01:43:38   Photos or not. I've been iCloud just photos for years now

01:43:42   like I

01:43:43   wonder because it's one of those things were like first impressions matter and some people have a

01:43:48   Much worse opinion of Siri than the state of Siri today series much better than things

01:43:54   Apple Maps exactly

01:43:56   the machine learning in

01:44:00   Apple photos is really amazing

01:44:03   like I just typed the word dogs into search like it and I bet that there are a lot of people listening who are like

01:44:09   Really?

01:44:09   You can just do that

01:44:10   You could just type dogs into iCloud or into photos and it'll find pictures of dogs and it's like yeah or pizza

01:44:17   It's like almost anything you can think of that is like an innocuous term. You can just type into

01:44:24   Photos and it finds it that is so much

01:44:28   Along these lines of hey, what if an oppressive government or any government tried to coerce?

01:44:34   Apple into doing their will in a privacy invasive way that feature

01:44:40   Already exists and is way more powerful if China wanted to coerce Apple into finding

01:44:47   identifying Chinese citizens who have pictures of Dalai Lama

01:44:51   It would be good already do that you're right it would be and it would be better for

01:44:56   For them to use machine learning and they could find pictures of the Dalai Lama

01:45:01   The Chinese government doesn't even know existed as opposed to this fingerprint technology that only involves existing photos

01:45:09   so right

01:45:10   I'm it's worth talking about and it is worth scrutinizing and it is good that

01:45:15   Because of the scrutiny Apple has gone on the record and said no if we are asked to do this

01:45:20   We will tell any government anywhere in the world. We will we're not going to do that

01:45:24   It's good that Apple did that it is curious that Apple didn't foresee that and have that in their day one

01:45:32   Messaging, you know that the messaging was the messaging was such a cluster, honestly

01:45:37   I really I mean part of it was probably because it feels like it was leaked early

01:45:41   But regardless it never should have been a dual announcement. The messaging has just been off I

01:45:47   Do feel I do think that you make a compelling argument because I hadn't actually thought about that. I think you're right

01:45:52   I I hadn't thought about that. I think that that's valid to say they could already do these things

01:45:57   My only question my only pushback a little bit would be

01:46:01   Now that Apple has done this as part of a feature

01:46:06   Even if the ability to already existed does that now?

01:46:10   Maybe encourage or put pressure or create an opportunity for these oppressive regimes

01:46:17   India is one that I think of right because India has already made in my opinion completely

01:46:22   ridiculous

01:46:24   Assertions about stuff that Twitter and other people can do and has been very very, you know

01:46:29   like fascist frankly with what content they deem appropriate and not like

01:46:34   And they have legal frameworks for this to say hey and whip whipping up a hysteria to get a significant

01:46:40   If not a majority of the citizens read behind it and to say yes, this is good. We should route this out

01:46:46   We should do this. Yes, they are using the populism and whatnot to exactly to whip people up 100%

01:46:52   I do I am concerned like maybe and maybe we're wrong like it's one of those things where maybe they've they're way smarter than us

01:47:00   And they've seen this ahead of this

01:47:01   There's a part of me that is concerned that it's like hey now that they see what's possible

01:47:05   Even if as you point out it was already possible

01:47:08   Does this now?

01:47:10   Create an incentive for them to put these pressures on and to maybe try to implement their their own

01:47:16   You know workarounds and say hey to legally operate here. You have to do this even though they could have done it before

01:47:22   Just put the idea in there

01:47:25   And that that's that's a concern and maybe that's unfounded

01:47:28   I don't know but I do think that that's a really good point that the technology already existed for some of the most egregious

01:47:34   Stuff. I also am glad that Apple very

01:47:38   Outwardly said we will not agree to do any of this. I think that's good like you

01:47:42   I'm not sure why that wasn't part of the messaging from the beginning

01:47:45   one of the things I said right from the get-go and I feel more strongly about it now than day one is that it's a

01:47:52   disaster to announce these two features together because they're there because they sound

01:47:56   But it it's it's not coming from a position of ignorance or or

01:48:04   obstinance to complete the two

01:48:06   It's very natural to complete the very natural to do it and and unfortunately because they're look they're both using neural networks

01:48:13   They're both using AI they're using it in different ways in one sense

01:48:16   It is you know comparing to hashes in a database that they're using like the algorithms that way in another it is

01:48:21   Straight-up image recognition AI on like the sensor on the phone

01:48:25   But if you don't have a deep understanding of those nuances, which most people don't and frankly people shouldn't have to you know

01:48:32   The that that's the job of the people who are putting the message out

01:48:35   It's completely natural that it's completed and like you I see it all the time

01:48:39   And I try to correct when I can add the other on the other hand

01:48:42   I'm gonna be also completely candid. It is not my job. It is not your job. It is not the press's job to

01:48:47   like

01:48:49   Apple's job for them which is to get out their press like we don't need to carry water for them if they couldn't get the

01:48:54   message out and if people are

01:48:56   misunderstanding

01:48:57   Frankly, it's on them a little bit to kind of clean it up like we can obviously I think it's important for us to have the

01:49:02   Discussions of the distinctions because there are technical differences and policy differences, which are very different right and and and I think that's a valid thing to have

01:49:11   But it's not our responsibility to make sure that the general public understands the differences in these two features

01:49:16   That's on them for announcing them at the same time

01:49:19   All right

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01:51:10   slash talk show

01:51:13   So the oppressive regime thing I I get it. I think it's overblown

01:51:18   I think there's other features that would be way way riper for abuse. And again, it's worth thinking about that

01:51:24   I actually think it's more we should be thinking more about the ways other features could be abused

01:51:30   As we put more and more of our lines and our communication on these devices the thing that's interesting to me over the last couple

01:51:37   Days though is this idea of hash collisions some open-source?

01:51:41   researcher thinks that maybe that they

01:51:44   Had the algorithm and Apple says no, that's actually you know, there's something in Iowa version

01:51:51   Yeah, but it whether that hash collision was found or not

01:51:56   It doesn't even matter. It's could it happen again in the future and

01:52:00   My understanding is that and and the one proposed, you know, somebody on reddit was like hey

01:52:07   I think I found a collision and it was like a picture of a dog and then the the picture that

01:52:12   generated the same hash, which is just like a 30 character string just like it alpha a to z 1 1 to 0

01:52:21   Characters

01:52:24   30 characters very very small compared to an image, but that the one that matched was like a gray blob

01:52:29   It's just it just looks like a if you wanted to say it was a photo. It'd be like a photo of gray putty, you know

01:52:36   It wasn't like a picture of a similar dog or another dog

01:52:41   and I think my understanding of the cryptography I feel pretty safe to say that if

01:52:47   Apple ships this as they state and

01:52:50   Hash collisions are found in the shipping version. It is

01:52:57   Almost certain like seriously like, you know heat death of the universe

01:53:02   Mathematics that the the images that would be generated to match it aren't going to be a

01:53:10   Child sexual abuse material right the fake rice, right? They're just going to be they're not even gonna look like anything

01:53:17   They're they're they're just you know

01:53:20   Random pixels almost but that they happen to put through the same algorithm come out with the same score

01:53:26   It's almost it

01:53:28   It's not the best analogy, but it's sort of like having two photos that that are the exact same size in bytes

01:53:35   Except even way more unlikely, right?

01:53:38   But the idea would be that it's an interesting idea that could it be abused this way that if you could

01:53:45   Generate these and you know that you have you have a collection of a hundred images that hash

01:53:52   To the values of things in this database. They look like

01:53:57   visual gibberish

01:53:59   but if I can insert them into your iCloud photo library and

01:54:04   You don't notice or you think I don't know what that is, but you let it go. It's sort of like swatting, right?

01:54:11   Like you're not gonna go to jail if I did this to you Christina

01:54:14   You're not going to go to jail

01:54:17   Because you don't actually have see Sam

01:54:21   It may but almost but what if the police come to your door and that's the thing that scares me is that it's like

01:54:27   Okay, it is kind of like swatting because it's like okay, you are probably not gonna go to jail, but it could give

01:54:32   prosecutors who already at least in the United States have

01:54:36   extreme overreach and I think are given far too much power to grab people's devices and get orders and an

01:54:42   Apple who does turn a lot of information that they have over to law enforcement officers when asked to request, you know

01:54:49   In some cases they decline but in many cases they agree to say okay. Well now we have

01:54:55   probable cause

01:54:57   To grab your phone and to get a backup of all your data and now we can search this and for the moment stuff is tricky

01:55:04   Especially with digital and I'm not a lawyer disclaimer there

01:55:06   But let's say they were kind of when looking through to try to find these photos that don't exist

01:55:11   They find something else right right, right, you know that that that's a concern

01:55:15   um, I also again this becomes completely paranoid and I'm not saying that this is even likely but also

01:55:21   There are cases where I don't think that this and I'm not talking about local law enforcement here

01:55:27   I'm talking about like agencies and groups that to be honest probably have better ways of entrapping people

01:55:33   But you know when we talk about oppressive regimes or even other things if you're saying, okay

01:55:37   Well, we have a payload at this point where we're putting this stuff on your device and we're gonna use that as a way to

01:55:44   Then be able to

01:55:46   Try to you know, catch you up on something else, you know, like like this is the way that we are going to purposely

01:55:53   Say that hey, we found this so that we can now search all of your stuff right and and to be clear

01:56:01   Swatting is a real problem. And and if in the best-case scenario where it's just some teenage

01:56:09   idiot who's doing it for the lols and

01:56:14   The police come to the victim's house and they're armed and they knock and oh they figure out nothing happened

01:56:21   It's just a huge annoyance to the victim, but I'm not downplaying the fact that there have been people who've been shot died

01:56:27   Yeah, people died right that part tax people been shot like people. Yeah, it is it is it is

01:56:33   not yeah, it's a problem and I mean that in the same way with this where if if

01:56:38   if there are

01:56:41   Weaknesses in the hashing algorithm that make it too easy to generate

01:56:47   false matches and

01:56:50   This becomes rampant

01:56:52   Hey, I guess if it became rampant enough Apple would have to either completely rejigger the system or pull it right if they got

01:56:59   overwhelmed

01:57:01   By this but but my concern

01:57:03   With the idea of somebody being

01:57:10   Victimized by having the stuff planted in their iCloud photo library is

01:57:17   It seems unlikely because it's also seems just as unlikely that somebody could just plant real

01:57:26   CSAM images and again that could be that that might even be the bigger weakness, right?

01:57:31   Is there a way you know that if you get access to somebody's phone or their Mac, which might be more likely?

01:57:38   Okay, or I mean like let's just say because this happens sometimes, you know, you have airdrop on like I'm being completely like crazy here

01:57:46   But you know, look if someone sends you a bunch of messages, you know an airdrop and you see one

01:57:51   But it's not like you see all of them and they all come in at one time

01:57:53   Like maybe if somebody hides it in there and and just you know, or somebody's not thinking and they just hit accept

01:57:59   I don't know. I mean again, I'm

01:58:01   You know, I'm reaching I'm just saying what about the you know abusive X who has your password?

01:58:07   And you don't even know they have your eye

01:58:09   100% I think that there are plenty of abusive X's and plenty of

01:58:12   Terrible individuals who would weaponize if they thought that they could who would recognize this or sure

01:58:18   And if they put it in and it has an old date, so it doesn't you know, like when you go looking for your

01:58:24   Not it doesn't you're like, yeah, you're like I have 300,000 photos

01:58:28   Yeah, and why am I looking at this thing from 2012 right this old image?

01:58:33   137 images from 2012 that are randomly strewn about 2012 2013. I

01:58:38   Do think Apple has put a lot of thought into this. I don't think that they've undertaken this lightly at all

01:58:44   I think they're very serious. But and again, I'm not it's a hypothetical but

01:58:49   My concern would be with the human review that Apple is saying that they're going to undertake

01:58:56   It's more likely that that an innocent person is going to get into trouble over this

01:59:03   The more accurate their system is right

01:59:05   Like if it really is true that there's a one in a trillion chance of any individuals

01:59:11   iCloud account being innocent innocent account being flagged incorrectly by the system

01:59:17   That means that the people who are reviewing it which and and they might be reviewing a lot right like Facebook reported 20 million

01:59:27   instances of see Sam being shared Google I guess through like Google Photos Google Drive

01:59:33   reported half a million last year, you know, that's a lot even if

01:59:38   Facebook's is off the chart even if Facebook isn't the ballpark

01:59:43   iCloud photos is going to be in when this system goes live, you know

01:59:47   Google's might be though half a million and if your team goes through

01:59:54   4,000 and they're all guilty of it. It's legit. Yep that we should report this to Nick Mac

02:00:00   This this looks you know, like this person is as has known see Sam

02:00:05   We're gonna you know report this as as they should

02:00:08   Yeah

02:00:10   What are the odds that they're going to be paying attention to the four hundred ninety nine thousand nine hundred and ninety first?

02:00:16   Instance it where maybe it is somebody who who had these gray blobs

02:00:21   in there

02:00:23   Yeah

02:00:24   No

02:00:24   I thought that was a good

02:00:26   point you made a couple weeks ago on your blog about how one of the questions about this is like how many people do they

02:00:31   Have who are dedicated to this review process, right? Because this is new for Apple

02:00:35   This is not something they've had to do before they have app review, but that's different like this has

02:00:39   Consequences and Facebook the working conditions for their moderators has been horrible

02:00:45   But Facebook and Google with YouTube and other places have had people who that is their job

02:00:50   And and I think the question is if especially since we rolled it to so many people

02:00:55   Like do they have the infrastructure and the training for people to be able to review?

02:01:01   Whatever they need to review that matches the right way

02:01:05   I know that they're not seeing the images but even to review like the half of it

02:01:08   Did they have that right training and well, but they do see they do see the visual derivative

02:01:13   Which is a fancy way of saying of a low resolution version of it

02:01:16   You know that there is something to look at and and if it truly is just like a gray blob

02:01:21   You might be like now this this doesn't seem like see Sam at all

02:01:25   But day in day out eight hours a day and every single, you know with one in a trillion chances you you know

02:01:33   That's all you're looking at are these visual derivatives of this horrific stuff and again, I don't there's no good answer to this, right?

02:01:41   This is the challenge that all of them face

02:01:44   It's like how do we deal with this sort of content because there is a human cost not just an in error

02:01:49   But there's also like the human cost of people who have to do this

02:01:52   It's bad if they don't look for it and it's monstrous if they do right. It's a monstrous job late. Yeah

02:02:00   No, I mean so when I was god, I was 17 or 18. I was in high school

02:02:03   I was working at Best Buy and I was a computer tech. I also worked in sales, but I

02:02:08   Was good and so they would pay me more money to also fix the computers

02:02:13   This is before they had geek squad and some woman brought in

02:02:16   Her son's computer and wanted some sort of backup and some sort of other thing done

02:02:20   And while I'm doing the backup and I'm doing the stuff I find

02:02:24   See Sam and I'm young I've never seen or wanted to see anything like that. It was a horrible experience

02:02:31   I had to contact the Georgia Bureau of Investigation and

02:02:34   report it and then send the computer off to them and then had to deal with

02:02:40   The mother coming to know why she's not getting the computer back. I

02:02:45   Wasn't trained on how to have that conversation and she's screaming at me. She is yelling all kinds of things

02:02:51   I mean it was it it was not a great experience at all

02:02:54   And it's one of those things that stuck with me a that the stuff that was there was horrific in the whole thing and I wouldn't

02:02:59   wish

02:03:01   Having to spend a lot of time with that on anybody even if they're trained for it, even if they're they're paid for it

02:03:07   I don't know what the solutions are. Yeah, I don't know either

02:03:09   I do so I'm not saying that this feature is a mistake

02:03:13   In the way that I think I am with the iMessage one. I this might be the best course going forward

02:03:19   You know that might be just but but they better be I really really hope that Apple is

02:03:25   institutionally prepared for it and I like I wrote, you know

02:03:29   I honestly think that they genuinely don't and couldn't know before they turn this feature on how big of a

02:03:37   Problem they're going to uncover. Yeah, I think that's true

02:03:41   And I think that would be that's that's maybe my overarching concern when I read that you wrote that I was like, yeah

02:03:46   I think this is right

02:03:47   I think everything else we can have is is hypotheticals and even this like we don't know how big it is

02:03:51   But I think that Mike my overarching hope is that they have the infrastructure and the people in place

02:03:58   to be able to do this and do it the right way because

02:04:01   This is one of those reputation making or breaking things

02:04:05   Yeah, especially early on if there are even alleged like high-profile cases of false claims or of other stuff

02:04:13   That is damaging

02:04:16   It just and maybe maybe this is something they have to do maybe you know

02:04:22   There's been a lot of you know discussion that this was something they were very much

02:04:24   influenced by you know government by the government to implement I

02:04:29   Have to be honest though that does also made me

02:04:32   Worry because if they were willing to implement this because of pressures over whether it was antitrust or this or that

02:04:38   That does sort of weaken the argument

02:04:41   That if faced with other pressures

02:04:44   Apple would say no. I do think there's a good chance that the upside is

02:04:50   That it's an overall win for privacy on the grounds that this is what Apple sees as a necessary step

02:04:58   before

02:05:01   enabling true end-to-end encryption for

02:05:03   That is what we actually get from this I would I would agree with that so

02:05:10   Let's give them a couple years because you know, that's a serious. It's a big thing. And and I know I know that the

02:05:17   Biggest reason that they don't have end-to-end encryption yet isn't law enforcement pressure from the FBI or anywhere else

02:05:25   It's customer service that it is a daily occurrence that people come in and say I don't have access to any of my Apple devices

02:05:33   Or maybe they only had one Apple device, you know, I had one or or someone died

02:05:37   You know, there's all kind my mom died my mom died and I she has so many photos, you know

02:05:43   I can I get them it's a it's a day in day out

02:05:47   heartbreaking problem

02:05:48   But that Apple can solve now because Apple can unlock this and there's a procedure to vet that the person saying

02:05:54   Hey, this is my account. They do it if

02:05:57   Let's say three years from now. There is end-to-end encryption for iCloud backups and photos and

02:06:05   This was a first step so that they could say yet. We're doing it in a way that identifies

02:06:11   CSAM and

02:06:14   You know that that feature from

02:06:16   WWDC just two months ago where now you can name like a family member or a friend as a trusted person to recover your iCloud

02:06:24   account

02:06:25   Smells to me like they're moving in that slowly moving in that direction

02:06:29   Right that that this is another way that I could lose access to my devices

02:06:34   But if I've named you as somebody who's trusted then you can help me get back into iCloud

02:06:40   Even if it's end-to-end encrypted, it's just adding you

02:06:43   Christina as one of the ends that's who's not Apple, you know, right?

02:06:49   But if not, if three four years from now, we still don't have end-to-end encryption on backups

02:06:54   It does make me question why Apple is doing this

02:06:56   Yeah, my hope would be that this is our level to get there

02:07:01   I still think that there is a valid discussion and and a debate to have about whether the trade-off is worth it or not

02:07:07   I would probably err on saying yeah, I would think that it would be I think that that having encrypted backups is important

02:07:13   Not maybe even as default because of the customer service issue as you say

02:07:18   But as an option that I guess remains to be seen and that certainly I think would have made sense

02:07:23   If that's what this is leading up to you

02:07:25   But like you said we're just gonna have to wait give them a couple of years, but if it's in five years Apple being Apple

02:07:31   They're not telling us in advance. No, they're not telling us anything and and people reach out

02:07:35   I mean, I've even reached out another they'd like respond to me anymore

02:07:38   But like I still like do my due diligence when I like I hear things like I'm not gonna go on

02:07:42   Podcaster or Twitter or whatnot about trying to get you know confirmation one way or another

02:07:46   If I can't get something confirmed, I'm not gonna say it, but we haven't heard they're not telling us

02:07:51   but I will say this if in five years if you and I are on a podcast together and

02:07:54   We're still like well, maybe next year. We'll have it in encryption. I'm gonna be like, yeah, I I'm calling BS

02:08:01   It's starting to feel overdue at this point. So let's let's hope so Christina. Thank you so much for your time. This was a

02:08:08   Covered everything I really wanted to cover and it's some of it unpleasant but

02:08:15   Boy, I really enjoyed this conversation. So thank you so much for your time

02:08:18   Maybe six months from now you'll be back on and we'll have news on the end an encryption front

02:08:22   Who knows that'd be great or we'll have like more fun stuff to talk about

02:08:25   No, but this is this is great. Thank you so much for having me

02:08:28   Outstanding. Thank you, Christina