00:00:00 ◼ ► René, I feel like before we get to yesterday's event, which was, am I correct? Was that yesterday?
00:00:05 ◼ ► Dr. Justin Marchegiani Yes, I think I had to do- I had to look at the calendar, but yes, it was.
00:00:09 ◼ ► Dr. Jon O'Reilly Before we get there, which I haven't done a show since last week when the
00:00:14 ◼ ► Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers issued a ruling in the Epic Apple case, and I do not want to spend a lot of
00:00:19 ◼ ► time on this because I do not have a lot of insight to add. But I will say that the very most curious
00:00:25 ◼ ► thing about it is how incredibly wide ranging the interpretations of the injunction against Apple are.
00:00:45 ◼ ► hell a metadata button is, which isn't what she meant. There's the- I guess on the one side is,
00:00:55 ◼ ► I will throw Nilay Patel under the bus and he's- he had a piece of The Verge with a sort of
00:01:02 ◼ ► maximalist interpretation of it, which is that if you're- if they're not allowed- if Apple is
00:01:08 ◼ ► no longer allowed to prohibit companies from directing users to external payment methods
00:01:16 ◼ ► with buttons, then the button that they're not allowed to prohibit could be an in-app payment
00:01:23 ◼ ► button that processes credit cards right in the app. Which if you only look at the injunction
00:01:30 ◼ ► isn't crazy at all. I know Nilay is- he's a friend. He's a frequent guest on the show. He's also-
00:01:38 ◼ ► You know, I happen to think though that he's all wet on this interpretation. And again,
00:01:45 ◼ ► the injunction taken of it by itself, the one-page injunction, very ambiguously worded,
00:01:50 ◼ ► really kind of odd. But it was delivered as part and parcel with the 158 page, I believe,
00:02:08 ◼ ► and then I- I do- you have to skim at some point. But it's- it is very good. And I think, you know,
00:02:13 ◼ ► I know that it's sort of like file this under duh. But it is a very good and fair and comprehensive
00:02:24 ◼ ► overview of the whole debate, the whole thing about- the whole way the app- Apple's App Store
00:02:28 ◼ ► works. All of Epic's various complaints about the way that the App Store actually works. It is a
00:02:35 ◼ ► terrific layperson's overview. Comprehensive, fair, accurate, very well organized too, which is, you
00:02:43 ◼ ► know, and you know what that's like, you know, writing scripts for videos and writing articles.
00:02:49 ◼ ► I mean, 158 pages, effectively, it's a small book. It's very well organized, which is very difficult.
00:02:56 ◼ ► But I think when you read the ruling, it's very- and having followed along with the trial,
00:03:02 ◼ ► and again, I didn't watch the trial every day, because that just seemed like madness. But
00:03:06 ◼ ► watching the- reading the nightly recaps back in May, it was very, very clear that she was
00:03:24 ◼ ► she's sort of what you hope for. You always have these nightmares that you're going to get a
00:03:27 ◼ ► completely tech illiterate judge who's not going to know what they're doing and make sort of
00:03:35 ◼ ► from the way she threw shade at the lawyers, at the witnesses, at everybody, and sort of drove into
00:03:49 ◼ ► "They're permanently restrained and enjoined to Zapple from prohibiting developers from
00:03:54 ◼ ► one other calls, including in their apps and their metadata." I think there should be like a colon
00:04:03 ◼ ► there, like an implied colon. "In their apps and their metadata, colon, buttons, external links,
00:04:10 ◼ ► or other calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms in addition to in-app
00:04:16 ◼ ► purchasing, which is capitalized." And she says in a footnote elsewhere that "capitalized in-app
00:04:28 ◼ ► of contact obtained voluntarily." In other words, they can email customers if they get permission to
00:04:34 ◼ ► have their email, which, again, is clearly using Apple's App Store guidelines as the basis for that
00:04:39 ◼ ► phrasing. Right. My interpretation of this, again, I'm not a lawyer, but in the context of the ruling
00:04:46 ◼ ► is it is just steering provisions. And so if it comes to pass and Apple doesn't appeal this,
00:04:56 ◼ ► and it comes into action, it would allow any and all apps to tell users, "Hey, in addition to our
00:05:05 ◼ ► in-app purchasing," which goes through Apple and Apple gets their 30% or 15%, "you could go to our
00:05:12 ◼ ► website and sign up for $9.99 instead of $12.99," or whatever the price difference may be. Or even
00:05:19 ◼ ► if it's a game, like the Fortnite technique would be not that you can do what they did.
00:05:26 ◼ ► Like, Neelay is saying, Neelay's argument is that what Fortnite did would now be legal. Because
00:05:31 ◼ ► Fortnite, for people who don't remember, it was only up for a couple of days. It was easy to miss.
00:05:36 ◼ ► But Fortnite didn't replace in-app purchasing with their own purchasing system. They left them
00:05:41 ◼ ► both in it with the so-called hotfix, you know, ping that enabled this version of Fortnite.
00:05:49 ◼ ► And specifically, they did that because they wanted to prove the point that given the choice,
00:05:55 ◼ ► many users would choose to save 20% by using Epic's own payment processing instead of Apple's
00:06:04 ◼ ► processing. Part of their stunt was to put them side by side, not to completely remove Apple's
00:06:10 ◼ ► in-app purchasing and replace it with their own. But that, I believe, would still not be allowed
00:06:15 ◼ ► under this injunction. It's going to be interesting to see because Epic has already appealed and a lot
00:06:21 ◼ ► of this is going to be tested, whether it's right or wrong, people will test different scenarios.
00:06:25 ◼ ► And it also is an American ruling and Apple's an international customer. And we saw how they
00:06:29 ◼ ► reacted to the Japanese, the previous Japanese ruling, but by making a sort of a global change,
00:06:34 ◼ ► but we haven't seen any indication of how they'll respond to this. But my favorite summation of all
00:06:39 ◼ ► of this was early on it was Stephen Warwick who was covering it for iMore and Future for months.
00:06:44 ◼ ► And he just said, "To sum up, Epic Games has won after being defeated in court. Apple will be
00:06:49 ◼ ► forced to make massive sweeping, get very minor changes that will change absolutely everything
00:06:53 ◼ ► and yet nothing for developers and will cost the company its huge App Store cash cow that is
00:06:57 ◼ ► actually very tiny. Epic Games plans to appeal against this victory and Apple has welcomed the
00:07:01 ◼ ► court's ruling against it." That is pretty good. I have to add that to the show notes. Was that a
00:07:08 ◼ ► tweet? Did he get that all in a tweet? That's actually pretty good for a tweet. I do think if
00:07:16 ◼ ► Eli is correct, then this is far more sweeping than we're thinking. It's also with certainty,
00:07:21 ◼ ► far more sweeping than Apple is thinking. I was part of a press event, press call Friday afternoon
00:07:27 ◼ ► after this was, you know, on bet there was an on the on the record statement from Kate Adams,
00:07:34 ◼ ► the chief legal officer at Apple. And then a fairly substantial Q&A period that was off the
00:07:42 ◼ ► record on background with people from Apple and they clearly see that, see this as steering only.
00:07:50 ◼ ► Yes. And, you know, and people and I think some of the reaction out there is like, like me tweeting
00:07:59 ◼ ► that and a few other media people who were on the call tweeting that just saying, not saying, you
00:08:05 ◼ ► know, this is my legal opinion, just Apple doesn't think that that's what it means. The knee jerk
00:08:10 ◼ ► reaction against that was, well, of course, Apple is going to spin it their way. But there's I don't
00:08:17 ◼ ► understand what the thinking is there because it's not like they're going to spin Judge Gonzalez
00:08:22 ◼ ► Rogers. Right? Like, like if Judge Gonzalez Rogers really meant you have to allow all third party
00:08:30 ◼ ► apps to do their own payment processing in app for digital goods purchased in the app. Apple telling
00:08:38 ◼ ► the press the day that the ruling came out that that's not how they see it, not only doesn't help
00:08:44 ◼ ► them at all, it hurts them. Because if they're trying to set expectations for, let's just say,
00:08:59 ◼ ► Initially, after the ruling where people like, oh, it only means anti steering, because that's
00:09:04 ◼ ► what Apple thinks. And then, you know, they go to get clarification before Gonzalez Rogers,
00:09:09 ◼ ► and she's like, No, no, I meant something else entirely, which is much worse for the company.
00:09:13 ◼ ► Well, then that's, that's bad for Apple. This does, there is no, there is no advantage to
00:09:18 ◼ ► spinning this in any way. The judge won't care what Twitter's hot takes are, right? Not one
00:09:23 ◼ ► little bit. The other thing that I thought was very telling was that Epic, Epic's lawyers and
00:09:30 ◼ ► CEO Tim Sweeney interpreted it the exact same way as Apple too, that they got their pants taken from
00:09:36 ◼ ► them on every single issue except the steering, which Epic itself didn't really care about. Like,
00:09:42 ◼ ► I don't think being able to tell people, I think it's better than nothing, you know, from Epic or
00:09:48 ◼ ► any other game makers perspective to say, you can go to epic.com or Fortnite.com, whatever their
00:09:54 ◼ ► website is, and buy V bucks there at a lower price. But if you can't process them in the game,
00:10:04 ◼ ► Jared: Right. And they also didn't say anything about, a lot of these hot takes didn't address the
00:10:09 ◼ ► previous part about, well, Tim Cook said it, but the judge also didn't say anything about Apple not
00:10:13 ◼ ► being able to collect commissions, whether you're using your own in-app purchase or even collecting
00:10:18 ◼ ► money outside the App Store. None of that was, it was specifically ruled out by this either.
00:10:22 ◼ ► Pete: Right. And that was a curious part of Tim Cook's testimony, which I don't think went very
00:10:29 ◼ ► well, to be honest, but maybe went well legally. I think publicity-wise, it went pretty poorly.
00:10:49 ◼ ► are deemed to have a monopoly, they still have a right to profit from their own intellectual
00:10:53 ◼ ► property, which he emphasized over and over again. And that to me gets to the core of what Apple was
00:11:00 ◼ ► concerned about and why Apple posited this as a resounding victory is that Apple, I think,
00:11:06 ◼ ► was most concerned about being deemed a monopoly. And that changes, again, monopolies aren't illegal,
00:11:15 ◼ ► but then all of a sudden the laws, that's the big lesson I remember learning 20-some years ago from
00:11:20 ◼ ► the Microsoft case. You grow up thinking monopolies are illegal or something, or just plain bad,
00:11:26 ◼ ► but it's no, it's just a different set of laws apply when you're deemed to have a monopoly.
00:11:34 ◼ ► statements about this were about how she very clearly said that this is not a monopoly under
00:11:43 ◼ ► state or federal law in California. And the Japan Fair Trade Commission thing said the same thing,
00:11:49 ◼ ► that other than these issues of anti-steering provisions for "reader apps," we don't see
00:12:01 ◼ ► which I thought was great too, because the other ones were way too far in either extreme.
00:12:04 ◼ ► **Trevor Thompson** Yeah, yeah. And she said for the purposes of this case, that the market was,
00:12:13 ◼ ► **Matt Stauffer** Yeah, mobile gaming, yeah, which applies definitely to Android. Does it apply to
00:12:19 ◼ ► **Trevor Thompson** Yeah, I think it does apply to the Switch because she was the one, remember,
00:12:21 ◼ ► she's the one who brought it up where it was something with, you know, she like embarrassed
00:12:26 ◼ ► one of Epic's lawyers at one point during the thing where she was like, "Yeah, but I could play
00:12:29 ◼ ► on my Switch." You know, he was like, "You can't play the PC version of Fortnite while you're on
00:12:34 ◼ ► the bus." And she goes, "Well, I could play it on the Switch." And he was like, "Oh, yes."
00:12:40 ◼ ► **Trevor Thompson** So we shall see. And the reason I don't want to belabor this too much is
00:12:44 ◼ ► there's no point, right? It's like, we'll find out soon enough. But I do think it's very instructive
00:12:49 ◼ ► that Epic's lawyers interpreted it the same way that Apple's did, which was that they lost
00:13:01 ◼ ► **Trevor Thompson** Right. And the argument that, well, of course, Apple's going to spin it
00:13:06 ◼ ► in the most favorable way for Apple. Well, then wouldn't those same people think Epic would spin
00:13:11 ◼ ► it in the most beneficial way to Epic? No, they spun it the exact same way, which was that the
00:13:16 ◼ ► only thing that should change if the injunction stands is the anti-steering stuff, which is the
00:13:24 ◼ ► **Matt Stauffer** Yeah. And what's interesting to me too is that I think a lot of times we get
00:13:28 ◼ ► trapped in the 10% of Twitter, which is very, very loud, but it's not at all representative of any
00:13:33 ◼ ► mainstream sentiment at all. Even when you talk about developers, even indie developers that we
00:13:37 ◼ ► know, they're not a uni-mine. You see a whole bunch of different reactions from people who
00:13:42 ◼ ► really want sideloading to developers who think it's going to increase piracy to people who really
00:13:46 ◼ ► want alternate payments, people who think it's going to increase fraud. They see different value
00:13:51 ◼ ► propositions in the App Store and by no means were they all aligned behind TimEpic or Spotify or DHH
00:13:57 ◼ ► or any of the people who I consider much more like online fire brands around some of this. And when
00:14:02 ◼ ► you look at customers, we just, we really care about the experience. It doesn't matter what Epic
00:14:06 ◼ ► thinks or what Apple thinks. I'm not going to be happy to like, and easily buy my comic books and
00:14:11 ◼ ► eBooks and everything else with one button tap in iOS because everything else is just a crappy
00:14:15 ◼ ► experience. I do think I know that the Epic thing is more fireworksy because there's lots, you know,
00:14:22 ◼ ► we have this debate over just what the injunction means and the and the difference in interpretation
00:14:27 ◼ ► is not subtle. That's it's a very significant difference. I think though, that if you take
00:14:35 ◼ ► the drama away, what Apple did with the Japan Fair Trade Commission is more interesting. And it was a
00:14:41 ◼ ► no drama thing. There was very little publicity. It seemed mutually respectful on both sides.
00:14:47 ◼ ► I've said this, I said this on dithering, that I thought Phil Schiller's statement in the press
00:14:53 ◼ ► release announcing it was was very interesting and super respectful of the process. And I think
00:14:59 ◼ ► that what Apple and Schiller truly appreciated is that it was no drama. And the Japan Fair Trade
00:15:04 ◼ ► Commission was very serious and it's very serious business. But it it the fact is Apple agreed to
00:15:14 ◼ ► bend on something and you can argue that making it only for quote unquote reader apps, which is
00:15:20 ◼ ► sort of an arbitrary category that Apple defines. It still is significant to me because it's the
00:15:28 ◼ ► first time Apple's bent in that direction at all. It's the first sign we have that Apple is like,
00:15:35 ◼ ► hey, maybe we should backtrack a little bit on on the maximalist perspective of how much money
00:15:48 ◼ ► Yeah, absolutely. And I think again, like they're playing the long game on all of this. And it
00:15:55 ◼ ► really is, I don't want to dunk on V bucks because they have zero marginal cost. And people just
00:16:00 ◼ ► throw money at them. It's a fortune with that returns almost no value, except for some enjoyment
00:16:05 ◼ ► at the time. But that's where all the money is. That's where all the money is for Apple. And
00:16:09 ◼ ► that's why Google regulates games on on the Play Store in the exact same way that Apple does on
00:16:13 ◼ ► iOS. And that's the part that I think is going to get not not reader apps, like for books, or for
00:16:18 ◼ ► movies, or for all those things. But games is going to be the big financial battleground.
00:16:22 ◼ ► Right. And they're already not making a cent from Netflix anymore, other than old grandfathered
00:16:27 ◼ ► accounts that didn't sign up. I mean, but people forget that when in the early days, Netflix was
00:16:32 ◼ ► allowing people to sign up through in app purchasing subscriptions. And Apple at the time
00:16:37 ◼ ► was publishing like top earning apps lists, stuff that they've gotten away from, I think for
00:16:43 ◼ ► competitive reasons, you know, that they don't want to let people know who's who's making the most
00:16:47 ◼ ► money. But for years, Netflix was the top grossing app in the App Store. And then even after Netflix
00:16:56 ◼ ► stopped taking signups, they still were because of all the users who were already in on that system
00:17:02 ◼ ► paying 15% to Netflix. We take them for Nebula. Now you can you can buy a nebula subscription in
00:17:09 ◼ ► app on iOS. There you go. It's it the lots of people do it. It's advantageous to a certain
00:17:17 ◼ ► there's to a certain class of customer, they value the convenience of it having all their
00:17:21 ◼ ► subscriptions in one place, being able to easily terminate subscriptions, which is not always the
00:17:26 ◼ ► case with New York Times or Washington Post or Wall Street Journal, those things. So it has it
00:17:30 ◼ ► adds value for some people, right. But let's say take Kindle, for example, Apple doesn't make any
00:17:35 ◼ ► money from Kindle, they haven't, you know, very early on for like a year or so Kindle was able
00:17:39 ◼ ► to have like a web view in their app and people could buy books in the Kindle. And Apple, I think
00:17:45 ◼ ► because Apple had approached the whole App Store from a TV and a video and music store viewpoint,
00:17:54 ◼ ► where you buy shows and movies and songs and albums, and you download them and you can use
00:18:02 ◼ ► them in that is sort of also the traditional way of buying apps and games, right? You say this game
00:18:11 ◼ ► is $4.99, you pay $4.99, and then you download it, and then it's yours to keep and you play it.
00:18:31 ◼ ► all those reader apps are aggregators, like they aggregate comic books or books or music or something,
00:18:35 ◼ ► but then the App Store aggregates apps as all the App Store is, is a major aggregator. And there's
00:18:42 ◼ ► Pete: Right. So they're already not making money from Kindle, because you can't buy Kindle
00:18:46 ◼ ► apps. And so if Kindle can just link out and send you, you know, maybe you have to leave the app and
00:18:51 ◼ ► go to Safari, but you can quick buy, you know, buy stuff. And it'll have like a callback URL that'll
00:19:01 ◼ ► meaningless. Honestly, it's not going to materially affect Apple's finances at all. The game stuff
00:19:07 ◼ ► would I mean, the end what that was some of the interesting stuff from the trial is from the
00:19:11 ◼ ► findings of fact that 70% of Apple's revenue on the App Store is games. And 98% of in app purchases
00:19:21 ◼ ► are for games, which I think and I've said that it only makes sense if that's literally in app
00:19:27 ◼ ► purchases, not subscriptions, you know, like a one time loot box or an emote or whatever they call
00:19:35 ◼ ► the things in fortnight, you know, you spend five bucks, get a new costume. 98% are games, but then
00:19:42 ◼ ► I think like, well, what else can you buy in app purchase? I mean, I know that there are, you know,
00:19:48 ◼ ► they know that's it. Like, we found out early on with the App Store that people would not pay $5
00:19:52 ◼ ► for a game, but they would pay 50 bucks to have a nicer looking farm, or to get their F1 racer back
00:19:57 ◼ ► on the track faster. We'll pay for instant and ego gratification. And that's it. And they've turned
00:20:01 ◼ ► into massive casino like businesses to harvest all of that from us. Yeah, it's amazing. And
00:20:06 ◼ ► the fortnight, you know, the other thing from the court case and just seeing epics financials, they,
00:20:11 ◼ ► you know, clearly they're they struck gold with the idea of fortnight. I mean, it's in hindsight,
00:20:17 ◼ ► it's kind of nutty to make a triple A caliber game that you just let everybody download and play for
00:20:22 ◼ ► free. And kudos to them for the fact that it wasn't pay to win, right? You could if you if you're a
00:20:31 ◼ ► kid with no money, you get your no competitive disadvantage to playing against an adult with a
00:20:38 ◼ ► full time job who can spend whatever they want on stuff. All they get are costumes and dance moves
00:20:42 ◼ ► competitively. You're completely on even ground. And it turns out that super lucrative like I think
00:20:50 ◼ ► that the I think I'm not a gaming expert, but I feel like in the early days of in app purchases,
00:21:02 ◼ ► Yeah, no, absolutely. The only the only thing I want to take a little bit away from fortnight
00:21:06 ◼ ► there. I mean, they definitely packaged it really well. And they're very good at making partnerships
00:21:10 ◼ ► with Marvel and Star Wars and things like that. But they they had a game and then they saw pub G
00:21:15 ◼ ► and they integrated all of that into their game was very, very successful. Now they just integrated
00:21:20 ◼ ► among us into their game. Very successful, but you know, to complete didn't didn't even bother to talk
00:21:24 ◼ ► to the indie developer. And they famously just straight up stole a bunch of dance moves in the
00:21:29 ◼ ► beginning. Now they have creator agreements, but they for someone who takes the moral high ground
00:21:34 ◼ ► as often as Tim epic there. They were built on a lot of external ideas. Right? That's a lot of
00:21:47 ◼ ► Yeah. Well, they didn't copy forward, I think is like the goal of everything. They're more
00:21:51 ◼ ► like copy paste. Right. All right. Let me take a break here and thank our first sponsor. So good
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00:23:33 ◼ ► You know, I think it was good. I like that they actually took it outside of Apple Park,
00:23:37 ◼ ► because after you know, to use your term two seasons, or at least one and a half seasons
00:23:44 ◼ ► I think that was the thinking. I know a lot of people like what is with all this pro California
00:23:51 ◼ ► stuff. It's like it was almost like the opening was like a promotional video for the state of
00:23:56 ◼ ► California tourism board. It was beautiful, undeniably, but does it did it belong in an
00:24:08 ◼ ► point other than they wanted a theme for this episode of the show. And they wanted you know,
00:24:16 ◼ ► honestly, I think everybody's surprised at this point. It that that there's that we're still in
00:24:23 ◼ ► a situation where these things have to be virtual. Yeah, you know, certainly the way things were
00:24:29 ◼ ► looking up in May and June, it seemed likely to me at that point that that we might be back to
00:24:35 ◼ ► regular in person events by September. Obviously, the Delta variant had other things to say,
00:24:47 ◼ ► political resistance, not medical resistance. And they needed a theme. I think you're right.
00:24:54 ◼ ► You know, they've kind of used up Apple Park as a backdrop. So get out, go around the state and
00:25:04 ◼ ► shoot in pretty areas. I thought that the the cayenne Drant segment for for the introduction
00:25:10 ◼ ► of the iPhone 13 and 13 mini in particular, was amazing at the turns out that's the San Diego
00:25:18 ◼ ► Symphony. They're outdoor, I guess you call it an amphitheater. Yeah. But I thought the thing that
00:25:25 ◼ ► number one, it was striking. It's a very beautiful outdoor theater. But I also thought that it struck
00:25:37 ◼ ► introduce these two phones, but also the thousands of empty seats in front of her and her being alone
00:25:45 ◼ ► on stage emphasize the we get it. We're still in weird times. And we can't have thousands of people
00:25:52 ◼ ► see this live. Yeah. And it was also kind of interesting to have it all centered around
00:26:05 ◼ ► did they think about that or no? It doesn't seem like something Apple would think about. But it
00:26:09 ◼ ► also doesn't seem like something Apple would be ignorant of. Everybody knew this recall election
00:26:13 ◼ ► was coming up and the date has been sent for months. I think that the unlikelihood of that
00:26:18 ◼ ► is that it was, it turns out that the recall was big failure and Governor Gavin Newsom held on
00:26:33 ◼ ► in the last couple of weeks, it seemed pretty clear. And the polling was sort of held back by
00:26:37 ◼ ► one goofy poll a couple months ago that really skewed the average of polls. But it doesn't seem
00:26:46 ◼ ► like something Apple would want to bet on. Right? Like, you know, politics, absolutely.
00:26:50 ◼ ► Politics are funny nowadays. Things happen fast. So I don't know. I thought that was interesting.
00:26:57 ◼ ► What else? High level overview? Well, I mean, this is their big event. And last year, they couldn't
00:27:04 ◼ ► do the iPhone in September, they had to hold off till October. So we famously got Apple Watch and
00:27:09 ◼ ► iPad. And going into this, it was sort of unclear. I mean, a lot of people thought it was going to be
00:27:14 ◼ ► Apple iPhone and Apple Watch, but Apple's done iPads, at least the base level iPad for the last
00:27:19 ◼ ► few Septembers in a row. So I think they've gotten a really good package of things together. And I
00:27:24 ◼ ► was just left to wonder, you know, we have Macs in October, I'm sort of going through and checking
00:27:28 ◼ ► things off the list to see what's still on the list. Right. But I like the way that they move the
00:27:33 ◼ ► little cards around to plan out this event. I thought it ended up being a really solid hour
00:27:36 ◼ ► and a bit. What is left on the list? Macs? Obviously, we still have a whole bunch of Macs
00:27:43 ◼ ► that have never moved to Apple Silicon. We have the, you know, just what does that mean? Apple
00:27:49 ◼ ► Silicon wise? A, what like would a Apple Silicon MacBook Pro, 16 inch MacBook Pro look like?
00:27:54 ◼ ► Who knows? Maybe iMac Pros too? You know, 27. Who knows what else is on the agenda for the rest of
00:28:02 ◼ ► the year. But also, you know, are we going to see M2 chips, M1x chips? What is the Silicon? What is
00:28:09 ◼ ► the actual Silicon story? Something has to be coming. And people get so confused. Like people
00:28:15 ◼ ► get so confused with that. And they think that Apple can't announce like an M1x after the A15
00:28:20 ◼ ► comes out. And this is the same Apple that announced an A12Z iPad Pro after A13 shipped.
00:28:25 ◼ ► Right. None of the stuff works, I think the way that people presume it does. So like the M1x just
00:28:30 ◼ ► means more cores, an extended core version of the M1, where M2 isn't going to be like per core,
00:28:36 ◼ ► it'll be more powerful, but it won't have anywhere nearly the amount of cores. So that'll be like the
00:28:40 ◼ ► new MacBook Air chip. And then M1x will be the Pro chip. And it'll be an M2x eventually if Apple
00:28:46 ◼ ► sticks to pattern. Yeah, so we'll see. That's definitely coming. I guess people have been
00:28:51 ◼ ► thinking that there'd be updated AirPods 3. I think a lot of people thought they would come
00:28:56 ◼ ► yesterday. Meaning, according to the rumor, and we can get into this, but maybe you don't want to
00:29:02 ◼ ► take too much stock in according to the rumors this year. But according to the rumors, they would be
00:29:20 ◼ ► but do have a more compact, shorter stemmed appearance. That's obviously the sort of product
00:29:28 ◼ ► that's not going to be a tent pole in an event. But it's also the sort of product that it is either,
00:29:35 ◼ ► to me, either going to make it in time for the holiday season or forget it, let's do it in
00:29:41 ◼ ► January or February. Let's go into the holiday season with the AirPods that we already have
00:29:59 ◼ ► AirPods have been in a keynote since the original, like the AirPods 2, AirPods Pro. I don't even
00:30:07 ◼ ► **Beserat Debebe** Yeah, I don't think so. So it might just be a Mac only event because I don't
00:30:11 ◼ ► think they're going to update the... They already updated the iPad Pros earlier in the year.
00:30:17 ◼ ► I don't think any of the other iPads are long in the tooth, right? The iPad Air is still pretty
00:30:25 ◼ ► fresh with the touch ID on the home button that the iPad mini is sort of following in the footsteps
00:30:32 ◼ ► of. So what else even is there? So I'm thinking an October Mac event, maybe they tuck in AirPods
00:30:39 ◼ ► or something like that. Because they do stuff like that. Like they'll have like, remember last year
00:30:49 ◼ ► **Matt Stauffer** But they did a whole event last November with three, with the MacBook Air,
00:30:55 ◼ ► MacBook Pro and Mac mini telling the M1 story, of course, but they'll tell the M1X story and then
00:31:00 ◼ ► they'll have these 14 inch, the 16 inch and that's a pretty decent event. Maybe the M1X Mac mini.
00:31:06 ◼ ► **Trevor Thompson** Yeah, something like that. Who knows? But in the meantime, we've got what was
00:31:12 ◼ ► announced yesterday. I thought that the other thing at a higher level, Tim Cook opened up and
00:31:19 ◼ ► the first thing that was mentioned was the fall TV Plus schedule. And to me, TV Plus is a lot like
00:31:30 ◼ ► Apple Watch, where it's like, when Apple Watch first came out, so many people were like, well,
00:31:38 ◼ ► this is a dud. This isn't selling well. They can't make new products without Steve Jobs. This is why
00:31:46 ◼ ► everybody said we were right. Steve Jobs is irreplaceable. And then like a year or two goes by
00:31:54 ◼ ► and nobody ever really stops to think like, hey, this is a smash hit product. I see Apple Watches
00:31:58 ◼ ► everywhere and they're making Bongo revenue selling them. TV Plus maybe isn't going to be
00:32:05 ◼ ► that big a deal financially, but they're very, very serious about it. And I feel like everybody's,
00:32:11 ◼ ► instead of the way that the Apple Watch looked like it wasn't a big hit compared to, let's just
00:32:16 ◼ ► even leave the iPhone out of it, but let's just say the iPad, which had these crazy go-go years
00:32:23 ◼ ► in 2010, 2011, 2012, because they were filling this completely unsaturated market of demand for
00:32:32 ◼ ► tablet-sized computers. It was just a massive, massive hit and then had these weird years where
00:32:40 ◼ ► they went from selling like 20 million a quarter to 10 million a quarter and everybody was like,
00:32:44 ◼ ► what's wrong? What's wrong? And I think in hindsight, it was just, well, people are still
00:32:54 ◼ ► huge way like that. It's been just like a slow, steady look. Every year it gets better. Every year
00:32:59 ◼ ► they add features. Every year they clarify their focus on what Apple Watch is actually good for,
00:33:05 ◼ ► notifications and fitness. And more and more people start buying their first Apple Watch and
00:33:22 ◼ ► well, the numbers are smaller for TV Plus subscription than everybody's smaller than Netflix,
00:33:27 ◼ ► but it's not as big as Disney Plus, not as big as HBO Max. But for those companies that's existential,
00:33:40 ◼ ► Disney, of course, has a much wider corporate domain, theme parks and cruise ships and ESPN
00:33:50 ◼ ► and all sorts of other, big, big conglomerate. But their bread and butter is entertaining families
00:33:59 ◼ ► with classic characters. And that's what Disney Plus is chock full of, Marvel and Star Wars and
00:34:06 ◼ ► all the Mickey and Friends type stuff. It is a side hustle for Apple, but therefore they're
00:34:14 ◼ ► approaching it that way, right? And the big knock is, well, why would I say, if I'm only going to
00:34:19 ◼ ► sign up for one, why would I sign up for TV Plus, but they don't even have a big library of stuff?
00:34:23 ◼ ► Like I could sign up for Netflix and I can watch it 24 hours a day and I've fallen behind, right?
00:34:32 ◼ ► You go watch Netflix for 24 hours and they can release so much new stuff that you've actually
00:34:37 ◼ ► fallen behind on how much stuff is in the library. They don't need to do that, right? And it's never
00:34:43 ◼ ► been the goal. They're much more focused like the HBO of old where it's like, look, you could pay a
00:34:49 ◼ ► premium and you can get these shorter list of high quality shows. I thought the fall lineup looked
00:34:59 ◼ ► pretty good. I thought that Finch show with Tom Hanks, I didn't even hear about that one.
00:35:05 ◼ ► **Beserat Debebe:** I think it goes back to something you've mentioned several times before,
00:35:09 ◼ ► and that is like people have a hard time taking Apple executives at their word, even though they
00:35:13 ◼ ► are amongst the most plain spoken executives I've ever encountered at any company ever,
00:35:17 ◼ ► they really often do just tell you what's on their mind. And I think when you look at Apple,
00:35:26 ◼ ► offer services on top of the iPhone as a platform. They want to make the value of their ecosystem
00:35:31 ◼ ► greater so that people, cynically they extract more value per customer that way, but they also
00:35:37 ◼ ► provide more value per customer. And that's increasingly important as iPhones become more,
00:35:42 ◼ ► I don't want to say commodity items, but reach saturation and become more like tools. But also
00:35:47 ◼ ► they have money and they want to tell great stories that they think aren't being told. And so
00:35:52 ◼ ► they're willing to put some of that money behind those stories. And I think you can see that in
00:35:56 ◼ ► where like Disney Plus has Marvel and Star Wars and the Magic Kingdom and all these brands. But
00:36:02 ◼ ► if you like Star Trek or DC Comics, they have nothing for you. And the opposite is true of
00:36:08 ◼ ► Warner Brothers and Netflix has a bunch of variety stuff, but it's not sort of HBO level variety
00:36:14 ◼ ► stuff. And I think Apple's got the, not just the desire, but the money to put new original
00:36:19 ◼ ► programming on, which is interesting to people like us who've been missing that as HBO has gotten
00:36:24 ◼ ► more and more Warnerized. And I think Apple is super happy to do it. It just increases value for
00:36:29 ◼ ► them and for us. And I think it's really no more complicated than that. Yeah. And they're getting
00:36:36 ◼ ► there, right? And they're not going to debut by focusing on original content and not buying
00:36:42 ◼ ► libraries of existing content to fill it up. It has to be a slow, you can't just debut with 50
00:36:49 ◼ ► shows, you know. But they're starting to pick up the other categories of shows that they haven't
00:36:56 ◼ ► had. Jon Stewart is a huge get, right? Because HBO has John Oliver and Bill Maher who do the sort of
00:37:02 ◼ ► political comedy type thing. Netflix famously has sort of taken over the market for comedy specials.
00:37:11 ◼ ► They don't really have shows like the John Oliver type thing. Chelsea Handler for a while,
00:37:15 ◼ ► but they don't seem to have invested much in it. Yeah. And it didn't really stick. It was,
00:37:19 ◼ ► and it was, I think she was doing, it was like, they weren't quite sure how to do it on,
00:37:25 ◼ ► in a streaming format. Like what's worked for John Oliver and Bill Maher is a once a week format,
00:37:32 ◼ ► whereas Chelsea Handler was more of a nightly format, like a traditional talk show. But,
00:37:37 ◼ ► you know, it's, you try stuff, you know, who knows, maybe the new Jon Stewart show won't
00:37:40 ◼ ► be any good. I don't, I mean, I'm looking forward to it, but I trust the guy, but you never know.
00:37:44 ◼ ► It certainly is the type of show that Apple TV+ hasn't had before. But the same with Foundation,
00:37:50 ◼ ► like the big sweeping space opera is coming out too. They're sort of filling the different
00:37:54 ◼ ► genres as they go. Right. Classic material, a true, I haven't read it since I was a teenager,
00:38:00 ◼ ► but I remember loving it. But with, you know, a top level cast, super high level production values.
00:38:07 ◼ ► So, I mean, I guess for all mankind, sort of, was that already? Which is one of my favorite things.
00:38:13 ◼ ► Jared: Yeah, I could have put that in alternate history genre, but this is sort of like,
00:38:18 ◼ ► Pete: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Let's say with spaceships that bear no bearing to reality.
00:38:27 ◼ ► Pete; Right. But, and then compare and contrast with Fitness+, which I think is in, you know,
00:38:34 ◼ ► those were the two services that Apple gave time to yesterday. And of course, it makes sense to
00:38:45 ◼ ► Pete; Right. It literally is a fitness service that presumed, the one thing that service presumes is
00:38:51 ◼ ► that everybody has an Apple Watch who's using it. But it is interesting to me, it must be, and I know
00:38:58 ◼ ► they, you know, they must have 30 or 40 trainers now. And, you know, Peloton is obviously the market
00:39:04 ◼ ► leader in that category, where it's, it is sort of personality driven. You know, it's, it is,
00:39:12 ◼ ► it's like podcasts, sort of. It's like, but instead of listening to two lazy guys like me
00:39:17 ◼ ► and you talk about technology and whatever else, it's people who are actually helping you break
00:39:23 ◼ ► a sweat and do things. But people get into, it's not just like show me anything that is spin. They
00:39:32 ◼ ► have favorite trainers and they enjoy the music that they have, they enjoy their personalities,
00:39:46 ◼ ► Pete; Right. But it is, effectively though, it is shows, right? And it, you know, it makes sense
00:39:51 ◼ ► that it's a standalone separate service from TV+, but effectively it's, it's video shows. But it
00:40:00 ◼ ► must be so much, however good these trainers are and however many of them are, it must be so much
00:40:06 ◼ ► cheaper to produce than all of the big budget TV+ stuff, you know, like Foundation and paying
00:40:18 ◼ ► Pete; Right. And even if you just look at Ted Lasso, which, you know, isn't like sci-fi levels
00:40:25 ◼ ► of special effects, there's a lot of special effects like to make stadiums look full and stuff
00:40:31 ◼ ► like that. You know, make it look like an actual soccer match took place at Wembley Stadium. You
00:40:37 ◼ ► know, that's expensive and just, you know, they've already built the studio and they can just,
00:40:42 ◼ ► you know, show it in the studio. It's so much cheaper to produce, but it costs more. It's $10
00:40:46 ◼ ► a month instead of $5 a month. Jared; Yeah, I think because fitness is one of those niches
00:40:51 ◼ ► where there's certain categories like finance, adult entertainment, fitness, where people are
00:40:56 ◼ ► willing to just pay more for content than they are in, you know, for news or for other sorts
00:41:01 ◼ ► of entertainment. Pete; Right. It's like you're not, it's a lot, a lot of entertainment works
00:41:05 ◼ ► that way, right? Like when you go to see the new Avengers movie that had a $300 million budget,
00:41:12 ◼ ► the box office ticket price is exactly the same as when you go to see the art house movie
00:41:17 ◼ ► that was shot for $50,000. You know, it's still… Jared; Even like, not to derail us completely,
00:41:23 ◼ ► but when you see what some influencers who quickly migrated to OnlyFans making millions of dollars a
00:41:28 ◼ ► month for essentially three or four snapshots, it just realigns your definition of how, of what it
00:41:34 ◼ ► costs to make content and what you can earn from content. Pete; And what people are willing to pay
00:41:38 ◼ ► for it, right? Exactly. The other, and I know that TV+ is not a new initiative and Fitness+,
00:41:45 ◼ ► yes, it's only nine months old, but I think it's something that they'd been planning for years
00:41:51 ◼ ► and it was a natural parlay from the fitness and health credentials and enthusiasm they've built
00:41:58 ◼ ► up among Apple Watch users. And it fits in with the overall push towards our big area of growth
00:42:05 ◼ ► for the company is services. But, so I'm not saying it's, putting them in the event yesterday
00:42:12 ◼ ► had anything to do with the legal and regulatory and just generally bad PR surrounding the App
00:42:22 ◼ ► Store and Apple's services revenues garnered through the 30 to 15% cut they take through
00:42:29 ◼ ► the App Store. I think that even if somehow in late 2021, those weren't hot button issues
00:42:38 ◼ ► worldwide, they still would have been talking about TV+ and Fitness+, but what stuck out to me,
00:42:42 ◼ ► so I'm not saying that's why they were emphasizing the show, but it stuck out to me in that context
00:42:48 ◼ ► that those are much better services for Apple to be making money for. Not me as a financial
00:43:00 ◼ ► because it's their own services, right? They're not seeking rent on Peloton to get 30% of signups
00:43:09 ◼ ► from Peloton and they're not seeking rent by taking 30% of in-app purchases from Disney+.
00:43:16 ◼ ► They're making their own thing and they're getting all the revenue and that to me is much healthier
00:43:22 ◼ ► for the company's culture. Yeah, no, I think that's true. I'm going to push back on the term
00:43:26 ◼ ► rent. I think the term rent-like tax is a huge underservice to the value of infrastructure,
00:43:30 ◼ ► which is something that a lot of people pay routinely for, including the companies that
00:43:34 ◼ ► call it rent-seeking or taxing when it happens to be Apple doing it. But I think Apple had,
00:43:39 ◼ ► I don't want to say a problem, but they had a concern because they'd famously promised investors
00:43:42 ◼ ► to double services revenue by, I think it was 2020 and a large portion of their services revenue is
00:43:47 ◼ ► in-app payments from games on the app store. And so it was very difficult to see them doing anything
00:43:52 ◼ ► that would derail that promise because that would be a massive hit for them on Wall Street. But I
00:43:56 ◼ ► think it's also telling they didn't renew that promise after they hit it. They didn't say,
00:44:00 ◼ ► "We're going to do it again." And I think that is giving them the breathing room to realign how they
00:44:05 ◼ ► earn services income because hardware margins, Apple had really good margins this year, this
00:44:11 ◼ ► last quarter, but their hardware margins, because they're using more expensive components,
00:44:15 ◼ ► haven't been the same as they were in previous years. And services margins are enormous,
00:44:20 ◼ ► software margins are enormous. And I think building this out lets them take a lot of the
00:44:24 ◼ ► pressure off relying on app store in-app purchase, especially game in-app purchase revenue.
00:44:28 ◼ ► Pete: Yeah, and I didn't mean anything negative by rent. I rented most of my adult life and I
00:44:34 ◼ ► got a good deal, right? I paid a landlord what we agreed upon and I got a house to live in.
00:44:40 ◼ ► Jared; That's true. I think some people use it disparagingly as a way of saying that Apple's
00:44:45 ◼ ► trying to pull something that they don't, trying to steal something in a way that they haven't
00:44:49 ◼ ► earned. Pete; I get it. I think that they have earned it. I'm not an absolutist. I think they do,
00:44:55 ◼ ► or I think, you know, I'm not as anti-Apple's app store revenue as a lot of people on our,
00:45:04 ◼ ► in your and my sphere are. But I just don't think, it's not that I think it's illegal, it's not that
00:45:10 ◼ ► I think it's even immoral. I just think that it is sort of like financial junk food. And it's like
00:45:17 ◼ ► resting, you know, you've already built this thing, which is great. And it is, you know,
00:45:22 ◼ ► well, I'm not gonna, Apple calls it a financial miracle. I don't know if it's a miracle, but
00:45:29 ◼ ► Pete; It's certainly a financial success story. And they deserve to earn some money from it.
00:45:35 ◼ ► But I just don't think it's healthy for the company to be looking for ways. And there were
00:45:40 ◼ ► signs last year or over the last year and a half of app store reviewers seemingly looking for
00:45:49 ◼ ► companies that were doing, you know, getting signups on the web and being told you need,
00:46:01 ◼ ► Jared; Yeah, it was trying to meet those, that app, that services revenue doubling goal,
00:46:05 ◼ ► which I think was unhealthy for them. But also to your point, it all, to me, it's like, yes,
00:46:13 ◼ ► but it just feels like the way they're going about it is so outdated. It's so 2009, 2010.
00:46:18 ◼ ► Pete; It's just so much better for them to be growing the services revenue based on their own
00:46:23 ◼ ► services. And it's just, it's a better outlook. And it's, to me, even if it's less profitable,
00:46:31 ◼ ► I mean, and that they're maybe like with TV Plus, and I don't even know how they break it apart,
00:46:35 ◼ ► you know, because presumably they, what they would like most people to do is sign up for Apple One,
00:46:40 ◼ ► where it's a lot harder to say how much of Apple One is Apple TV Plus and how much of it is iCloud
00:46:49 ◼ ► storage and how much of it is the other stuff that you can get. It's just good, right? And Amazon has
00:46:56 ◼ ► sort of led the way on that, where it's like, look, just sign up for Amazon Prime, and we'll
00:47:01 ◼ ► give you all sorts of good stuff. We'll give you expedited shipping, and we'll give you discounts.
00:47:06 ◼ ► And here, you could just have all these TV shows here. We'll just, Jared, here, here you go. Here's
00:47:11 ◼ ► movies and TV shows. And just, just sign up, just sign up, be loyal, keep signing up. I think Apple
00:47:18 ◼ ► wants that. I think having your own original content that you own and control is good for them.
00:47:24 ◼ ► I don't know. I just thought that that was, it just stuck out to me in a way that it might not
00:47:30 ◼ ► have a year ago. Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. All right, let's take another break here and
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00:50:27 ◼ ► meals. I say we go reverse order, iPhone, then the watch, then the iPads, but we could go the other
00:50:37 ◼ ► way. The funny thing about going the other way was, did you notice this, that with the iPad mini,
00:50:42 ◼ ► they didn't talk about the chip? Yeah. Yeah. And they didn't talk about the chip for the watch
00:50:48 ◼ ► either. So I wasn't sure what reason they were talking about the various chips that's for.
00:50:53 ◼ ► So maybe we should go in the order they went, actually. Let's take it back. Let's do it in
00:50:57 ◼ ► their order. They didn't talk about the iPad mini chip because it was the A15 and they wanted to save
00:51:03 ◼ ► the, let's tell you all about the A15 for the iPhone 13 segment. It's kind of interesting
00:51:09 ◼ ► because the iPad mini actually has the five core GPU variant on the iPhone 13 is only in the pro
00:51:20 ◼ ► models. The regular 13 and 13 mini have four core GPUs. It's a really nice device, the iPad mini.
00:51:27 ◼ ► Yeah. And that's an interesting choice because it's easy to see that Apple needs a little bit
00:51:32 ◼ ► more power in the iPhone pros because of pro res and cinematic video and some of the other stuff
00:51:39 ◼ ► we're going to be talking about promotion, but the iPad mini, the iPad air, which is basically
00:51:44 ◼ ► what the iPad mini is a shrunken down version of just it hasn't the A14, which was essentially the
00:51:49 ◼ ► exact same chip four core, four GPU core version of this chip. So obviously they're giving it a
00:51:54 ◼ ► little bit more graphical oomph and I'm not sure why yet. I don't know either. It might be, maybe
00:52:02 ◼ ► just because the iPad mini is sort of on a unique, seemingly its entire history from the beginning
00:52:10 ◼ ► until now on a unique schedule where it it's always been in the lineup. There's a certain
00:52:17 ◼ ► contingent of people in use cases who want that small size. Maybe it's kids playing games. Apple
00:52:23 ◼ ► mentioned doctors who have lab coat pockets that are sized for the iPad mini and a bigger iPad
00:52:28 ◼ ► would just be just heavy in a lab coat pocket pilots and particularly pilots and smaller
00:52:35 ◼ ► airplane cockpits where every single space saving decision is that can be made is made.
00:52:41 ◼ ► But it doesn't get up. It doesn't get updated every year and never has gotten updated every year.
00:52:48 ◼ ► But when it does get refreshed, tends to be refreshed to about as high spec as you could
00:52:54 ◼ ► reasonably expect for a $500 iPad. Yes. And I guess because of that they want to give it the
00:53:01 ◼ ► latest silicon so that it'll stay useful. It'll get updates for as long as possible when you do
00:53:04 ◼ ► buy it. Right. I don't know when they're going to update the iPad Air, but I would wager fairly
00:53:10 ◼ ► heavily that they'll update the iPad Air before they update the iPad mini again. I think the last
00:53:14 ◼ ► iPad mini, the one that just got obviated by the one released yesterday or announced yesterday,
00:53:21 ◼ ► had the A12. So it's sort of looked, you know, if we, I don't know, it doesn't really matter
00:53:26 ◼ ► going back historically past that, but you know, it's like in every three year up upgrade.
00:53:31 ◼ ► They were announced together like the iPad mini and the iPad Air had that new design and then they
00:53:36 ◼ ► were updating it without almost barely not mentioning the iPad mini after a while. And then
00:53:41 ◼ ► when the AirPods 2 came out right before Apple did the very first services event when they announced
00:53:46 ◼ ► TV Plus, they put a bunch of products out and press releases. And one was the new iPad Air and
00:53:50 ◼ ► the new iPad mini, but then last year they only updated the Air and then now this year they're
00:53:55 ◼ ► doing the mini. So they've, there seems like they're out of sync for the first time. Yeah.
00:54:02 ◼ ► which I'm not even sure if we should call it the top, you know, is it the top or is it the
00:54:06 ◼ ► left-hand side if you hold it sideways? Opposite the port. Right. Opposite the port. Yeah, I guess
00:54:13 ◼ ► I guess that's what you, what you could call it. It's funny because like people were wondering,
00:54:17 ◼ ► well, Apple make a smaller pencil and they didn't, they just moved the buttons. Yeah. Well,
00:54:22 ◼ ► there are no buttons though on the, I have, well, I guess there are actually, yeah, that is where the
00:54:28 ◼ ► volume buttons are. Huh? They're on the right. Hmm. I guess that might be why they did it.
00:54:33 ◼ ► Because their smart keyboard would block them on the other side, but there's no smart keyboard or
00:54:37 ◼ ► smart connector on the iPad mini. I guess Apple didn't want to make a teeny tiny magic keyboard.
00:54:49 ◼ ► even after all these years of being, having the job of obsessively devoting time to whichever
00:54:58 ◼ ► minute details of design that we see fit, I still think of things, you know, like it's always been
00:55:04 ◼ ► a little weird. I still think it's a little weird that the iPhone is one of the only phones on the
00:55:10 ◼ ► market with a mute toggle. I love it. And I don't know though, if that's just because I've been
00:55:15 ◼ ► using an iPhone for 14 years and so I don't know what I would do without it. I do not want to turn
00:55:20 ◼ ► the screen on and fish around in control center to mute it. I still wish that the iPad had it.
00:55:28 ◼ ► Remember the iPad had the mute switch and then they made a system setting that you could change
00:55:34 ◼ ► the mute switch to be a rotation lock. And I remember thinking, I get why they don't add two
00:55:42 ◼ ► toggles, but I kind of wish I had both. I like muting it with the switch, but I also like the
00:55:47 ◼ ► rotation lock for reading in bed and not having the screen rotate. And then they just got rid of
00:55:53 ◼ ► the switch entirely and you have to do it all through control center. And it's not the biggest
00:55:57 ◼ ► pain in the butt, but when my iPad is on my bedside and it's ping, ping, ping, and it's like,
00:56:04 ◼ ► ah, I can't just clumsily find a switch and flick it. I have to pick it up, have to look at control
00:56:12 ◼ ► center, have to remember exactly. Well, you can hold down volume down and if you hold down long
00:56:16 ◼ ► enough, it'll mute. But by that time you'd probably hit mute anyway by the time you've realized that
00:56:20 ◼ ► it's muted. So it's one of those counterintuitive things. Can you do it when it's locked? I don't
00:56:25 ◼ ► know that you can. I'm trying it right now. I have an iPad in my hand. Oh, maybe not when it's locked.
00:56:29 ◼ ► Yeah. Maybe only when you're using it. Yeah. I think you have to, I don't know if it's,
00:56:32 ◼ ► oh, but you can just wake the screen and it'll do it. Oh, that's it. That's a good tip. Yeah.
00:56:37 ◼ ► That's a good, I learned something. Although it did. Nope. It unlocked it. It's cry curse you face
00:56:42 ◼ ► ID. I don't know. You might be able to, but it still is interesting to me. But the other thing
00:56:48 ◼ ► that's interesting to me is that the phone has always had the volume buttons when you're holding
00:56:53 ◼ ► the phone with the camera at the top and the port at the bottom, the volume buttons are on the left
00:56:59 ◼ ► and on the iPad, they're on the right. But I guess it has, my thinking is it has something to do with
00:57:05 ◼ ► the way Apple presumes you would put the laptop in horizontal mode while in a keyboard. Yeah. Right.
00:57:13 ◼ ► And in fact, with the modern ones that have the smart connector, you know, you kind of have to
00:57:19 ◼ ► do it that way because the camera would, therefore the camera would still be at the top. And if you
00:57:26 ◼ ► put the volume buttons on the other side, you wouldn't be able to access the volume buttons
00:57:30 ◼ ► while it was mounted in the keyboard. But then they didn't have space for it. If they were going
00:57:37 ◼ ► to have the pencil be on that side where it kind of has to be, cause even though they don't have
00:57:41 ◼ ► a smart keyboard for the iPad mini, you can buy keyboard little tiny, tiny finger keyboards for it
00:57:48 ◼ ► and you'd want the pencil to still be on top. And that takes up space from the camera being in
00:57:54 ◼ ► landscape mode, which a lot of us want as well. Right. There's so much room in there. Right. Right.
00:57:58 ◼ ► So therefore the buttons had to move and there they are. And Apple doesn't like to explain
00:58:03 ◼ ► decisions like that, but I think we just backwards engineered it. I don't have much more to say about
00:58:11 ◼ ► it. The new iPad also, I mean, you know, what are you going to say? You know, it's the low end. The
00:58:15 ◼ ► one thing that struck me was that they emphasized repeatedly that it's their best-selling most
00:58:20 ◼ ► popular iPad. And maybe they do that every time they update it. But it's sort of a weird flex
00:58:27 ◼ ► because it, it so clearly is the most popular only because of its low price. Yeah. I mean,
00:58:34 ◼ ► a weird flex for Apple, like who's not really known for flexing about affordable prices.
00:58:41 ◼ ► I mean, the MacBook Air, they talk about it that way, but you never hear them talk about
00:58:45 ◼ ► like the iPhone SE is their most popular iPhone. I don't think it is. It's like the third most
00:58:49 ◼ ► popular, but it'd be a weird flex anyway. It does speak though to the difference. And I know that at
00:58:54 ◼ ► the high end, you know, you can configure MacBook Pros that cost $5,000. And so there's, you know,
00:58:59 ◼ ► there's clearly a high end for MacBook Pros. That's far beyond even the biggest, most expensive
00:59:06 ◼ ► iPad Pro, but at the levels that people typically spend for MacBooks or iPad Pros, the prices are
00:59:17 ◼ ► fairly similar, especially when you, if you bake in the cost of a magic keyboard, right? And if
00:59:23 ◼ ► anything, maybe the iPad Pros are more expensive. Whereas the MacBook Air has that magic $999 price
00:59:30 ◼ ► point and really good configurations for very typical people at around $1,200. And that's just
00:59:44 ◼ ► Jared: Yeah, no, absolutely. And it really is that, like I've called it the most, like the best
00:59:50 ◼ ► deal in tech for a long time. But if you're looking just to get into an iPad, getting one for
00:59:54 ◼ ► $329, especially one that has the, like it doesn't have high end specs and they're very clever about
00:59:58 ◼ ► what they compromise on, like the camera quality, and there's no laminated display and it's things
01:00:02 ◼ ► that would drive me personally up the wall, but it's things that a lot of people just do not care
01:00:07 ◼ ► Pete: Try explaining to a lot of those people what ProMotion does and try taking it away from
01:00:19 ◼ ► Pete; Well, he notices though, he's got young healthy eyes and an eye for graphics and he
01:00:24 ◼ ► notices that, you know, and is actually frustrated that like his MacBook doesn't have it, you know,
01:00:29 ◼ ► that the only device that has it is an iPad Pro. But I don't have much more to say about it. I
01:00:33 ◼ ► guess I'm not surprised. I guess you and I talk about this every time, but the mini got USB-C,
01:00:40 ◼ ► the regular iPad did not. Spoiler looking ahead a segment or two on this show, the iPhone 13,
01:00:47 ◼ ► including the Pros do not have USB-C. People don't get it, but it's, you know, it seems pretty
01:00:54 ◼ ► clear that the iPhone 10 marked the effectively 2.0 era of the basic concept. Face ID instead of
01:01:03 ◼ ► touch ID, round corners, no home button on the front instead of flick up from the top or from
01:01:09 ◼ ► the bottom gesture system. And the iPads have had a similar re-reckoning to remove the home button
01:01:17 ◼ ► from the front face, go to the all screen display as Apple likes to call it. And with those iPads,
01:01:24 ◼ ► they go to USB-C when they make that transition because they're being positioned as somewhat more
01:01:31 ◼ ► like computers, right? I mean, and it's like people will never let Apple forget that commercial they
01:01:36 ◼ ► made where it was like, what's a computer? And it's like, it's a commercial. It wasn't meant as
01:01:41 ◼ ► like a scientific argument. Yeah, it was meant to be thought provoking and it certainly succeeded.
01:01:46 ◼ ► Right. It's like with, did you see the thing where AOC went to the Met Gala and she wore a dress
01:01:53 ◼ ► that said "tax the rich" and people were like, "Does she not know that rich people do pay taxes?"
01:01:59 ◼ ► And it's like, are you serious? I mean, like, whatever you think. Does she not know that rich
01:02:02 ◼ ► people are at the Met Gala? Right. And it's like, yeah, she knows. She knows. Tax the rich doesn't
01:02:08 ◼ ► mean that she thinks that the rich people aren't charged any taxes. It's, come on. Nobody was trying
01:02:16 ◼ ► to argue that the iPad Pro is not a computer. Luckily, Nicki Minaj took all the heat off of
01:02:20 ◼ ► AOC. Yeah, yeah. So we didn't have to put up with too much of it. I don't even want to go there.
01:02:27 ◼ ► Either. But that was bizarre. I thought it was a joke that Tucker Carlson on Fox News went
01:02:34 ◼ ► deep on the Nicki Minaj's cousins, friends, testicles swelling from the COVID vaccine story.
01:02:40 ◼ ► I thought that was a joke. And it turns out, no, that was actually what his show was about.
01:02:49 ◼ ► Those damn cousins, cousins, friends. You really couldn't make it up. My cousins, friends,
01:03:05 ◼ ► Mini had better specs than the iPad, even though the iPad is bigger or why the iPad Mini. But I
01:03:10 ◼ ► think Apple clearly positions it as a, not like the top tier device, but as a good midpoint device.
01:03:16 ◼ ► And they don't see small as being cheap. They see small as being a feature. So they charge for it
01:03:22 ◼ ► accordingly. Yeah. And the iPhone 13 and 12 Mini throw that off because they are a hundred dollars
01:03:30 ◼ ► cheaper than the non-mini corresponding versions. And there is an argument to be had that, well,
01:03:37 ◼ ► a bigger screen is a more expensive component, blah, blah, blah. But the Mini has always been
01:03:42 ◼ ► a not premium product like iPad Pros, but... It's like mid-tier. It's the mini iPad Air,
01:03:50 ◼ ► not the mini iPad Nothing. Yeah. And in some ways you do, you know, you can be expected to pay a
01:03:55 ◼ ► premium for miniaturization. I thought it was pretty cool that like holster type thing that
01:04:01 ◼ ► the pilot had the Mini strapped to his legs that they showed. It's like people will pay a premium
01:04:06 ◼ ► for that to have, you know, there are, you know... I think the iPad Nothing is like the iPhone SE and
01:04:12 ◼ ► the iPad Mini is like the iPhone Mini and the iPad Air is like the iPhone, the iPhone 13 should be
01:04:16 ◼ ► the iPhone 13 Air and then it would all make sense. Yes, I agree. At least that's the way you should
01:04:22 ◼ ► think about them in your head as being the equivalent of each other. Apple Watch Series 7.
01:04:36 ◼ ► What a weird... Can you think of an example where more... So there's German, Ming-Chi Kuo,
01:04:43 ◼ ► and then YouTube sensation and teen heartthrob, Jon Prosser. All had this seemingly independently,
01:04:52 ◼ ► not based on each other's reporting, but all had it as a flat side design that basically like the
01:04:58 ◼ ► way that the iPhone 11 was rounded and sort of pill shaped on the sides and then the iPhone 12
01:05:05 ◼ ► and now 13 have flat sides like the iPad Pros that the watch would be making a similar move in form
01:05:13 ◼ ► factor to flat sides this year. Prosser had it back in May, German reiterated it last month,
01:05:22 ◼ ► and then Ming-Chi Kuo reiterated it on Friday, just like three days, three or four days before
01:05:27 ◼ ► the event. It's a very strange thing to get wrong. And the only possible explanation I've seen is
01:05:34 ◼ ► that sometimes Apple has more audacious and more conservative prototypes and if something goes wrong
01:05:38 ◼ ► with the more audacious one, they switch to the more conservative one. And when you heard rumblings
01:05:50 ◼ ► Right. It didn't happen when the rumors of the production problems in August hit. That decision
01:05:59 ◼ ► was made a while ago. Now, at what point might such a design have been in the running on the
01:06:07 ◼ ► whiteboard, or I guess at the time on the Zoom call for the 2021 watch? I don't know, but it
01:06:12 ◼ ► would have been like a year ago, I think. I have heard from somebody who heard from somebody that
01:06:19 ◼ ► the design is legit, but whether it was ever intended, whether it ever will ship, don't know,
01:06:25 ◼ ► but it was definitely never intended for 2021. It was a 2022 thing, which is interesting.
01:06:34 ◼ ► And I think it speaks to the sort of sources who leak these sort of things. Like the people in
01:06:47 ◼ ► all of the technical details of this year's Apple Watch Series 7 are not the type of people who leak
01:06:55 ◼ ► these things. And the people who do leak these things are people who like, "Well, I know I have
01:07:00 ◼ ► these CAD files and I have a code name, but I have no idea when or if, what level of prototype this
01:07:06 ◼ ► is, when or if Apple intends to ship it." But to have a CAD file, they could leak and then someone
01:07:12 ◼ ► like Prosser can commission renders based on the CAD files and you could see what they would look
01:07:16 ◼ ► like. What else? The only thing that was interesting to me is like, years and years ago, you and I and
01:07:21 ◼ ► John Pachowski and even Gurman and Jim Dalrymple, we would have conversations about this stuff with
01:07:31 ◼ ► all of the leaked people are just clawing at each other constantly. And it's kind of sad.
01:07:35 ◼ ► Pete: Yeah, I keep score on the claim chatter, not to be a jerk about it, but I think it's worth
01:07:47 ◼ ► Mark Gurman famously started a newsletter and he tweets and he's very careful what he puts in
01:07:52 ◼ ► Bloomberg. Like what he puts in Bloomberg, he calls it a report and he lists out all this stuff,
01:07:55 ◼ ► but what he puts in Twitter and his newsletter are sometimes completely framed as opinions or
01:07:59 ◼ ► as guesses and yet people reblog them or promote them or video them as if they're the same vetting
01:08:06 ◼ ► as his reports, which has proven not to be the case. They're like, if you and I are spitballing,
01:08:12 ◼ ► Pete; Right. And he will often too just sort of spitball ideas like we do, but like, you know,
01:08:20 ◼ ► oh, here's what three products I think would be announced together. I think, for example,
01:08:26 ◼ ► I think he just spitballed that the September event would be iPhones and the Watch and October
01:08:34 ◼ ► would be iPads and Macs. And they did the iPads yesterday. But when he spitballed that, he wasn't
01:08:41 ◼ ► saying that's what I've heard. That's what sources say my plan is. He was just thinking it through
01:08:56 ◼ ► what is, what has a Bloomberg news byline and of course Bloomberg's typical sourcing where every
01:09:05 ◼ ► single paragraph includes according to the sources who declined to put their names on because they
01:09:10 ◼ ► don't have permission to talk about them yet or whatever that, you know, boilerplate they put into
01:09:14 ◼ ► every claim. But that's why they put those, we can say that it's sort of is a stilted way of reporting
01:09:20 ◼ ► but they're, the reason they insist on it internally is to assert that this is why we're
01:09:26 ◼ ► putting it in a report that sources who do know told us this was true. And then there's another
01:09:33 ◼ ► assertion in the next paragraph and we're going to say that it's from those people, same sources.
01:09:39 ◼ ► I thought that the watch too, the flat side watch rumor, it never, I mean who knows because renders,
01:09:47 ◼ ► they could be totally legit cataphiles with the dimensions exactly correct. And just the result
01:09:56 ◼ ► of the leaker renders, they never, it never looked right to me. It doesn't sit right with me.
01:10:02 ◼ ► There's something about it that's like, hmm, I don't know, that doesn't seem as physically
01:10:06 ◼ ► appealing to me as the pill shaped classic Apple watch. And like bad feng shui. Yeah, like, but
01:10:13 ◼ ► yeah, it's hard to even, it's ineffable. It's hard to even quite say sometimes when you're looking at
01:10:18 ◼ ► two fonts, it's sometimes you can't even say why you like one better. It was more aerial than
01:10:24 ◼ ► Helvetica. But I thought I'd still think it's interesting and it would be such a total 180 is
01:10:30 ◼ ► that the industrial design of series zero through series three and then with series four they
01:10:38 ◼ ► redesigned, that's when they resized them and instead of 36 and 40 went to 38 and 42 millimeters.
01:10:45 ◼ ► Is that how they went? I think so. Right. So yeah. But they got, it got rounder. It got more organic,
01:10:54 ◼ ► more round, less of a rectangle, like a round rect and more of a complicated 360 degrees all the way
01:11:04 ◼ ► around elliptical shape. Super ellipse or whatever they call it. Yeah. So it would be weird to me if
01:11:09 ◼ ► they then went flat, but you know, like I said, I've heard that maybe it's a legit design. I don't
01:11:19 ◼ ► and faster battery charging 33% faster battery charging if you use a USB-C to Apple Watch charger.
01:11:26 ◼ ► Yes. Not a big deal. Not a big upgrade. Not bad. Now. It's a different market though. Like with
01:11:33 ◼ ► the iPhone, it's such a saturated market and the upgrade cycles are three, four, five years out now.
01:11:38 ◼ ► But most people, even most iPhone owners still don't have an Apple Watch and Apple's less
01:11:43 ◼ ► concerned about Apple Watch upgrade. I mean, they'll take your money regardless, but they're
01:11:47 ◼ ► less concerned about Apple Watch upgrades than they are of just getting people into the Apple Watch
01:11:51 ◼ ► to begin with. So I think they're just constantly chipping away at roadblocks and adding features
01:11:56 ◼ ► that they think will appeal so that more and more people end up getting their first Apple Watch at
01:12:00 ◼ ► this point. Yeah. And the other thing they didn't spend a lot of time talking about it, but they did
01:12:05 ◼ ► talk about some durability improvements to the front facing crystal, which I believe only pertains
01:12:11 ◼ ► to the aluminum models, the ones that use the ion glass or whatever they call it, not the Sapphire
01:12:17 ◼ ► that's on the steel and titanium ones. Yeah. The ion exchange glass. But that's the sort of thing
01:12:24 ◼ ► that it shows that Apple sees these and they know people are using them for fitness. I have friends
01:12:33 ◼ ► who are into rock climbing and are still, they really were looking for, they want that rumor.
01:12:38 ◼ ► Remember, Gurman had the rumor earlier this year of the Apple Watch. What did he call it? Expedition?
01:12:43 ◼ ► The rugged. Yeah, Expedition, the ruggedized version. Or Explorer. Explorer would be weird
01:12:49 ◼ ► because that to me would be a code name, not a product name because Rolex famously has the
01:12:57 ◼ ► Explorer and Explorer II. That was like the watch that was first taken to the top of Mount Everest.
01:13:03 ◼ ► I can't see them using Explorer, but whatever. The idea would be like a G-Shock type Apple Watch.
01:13:13 ◼ ► people who just, it doesn't matter what you say about how rugged the glass is, it's still glass
01:13:18 ◼ ► and rock climbing in particular. Rocks are pretty hard. Or people still use garments because the
01:13:24 ◼ ► garment is just, they do have ruggedized versions and Apple doesn't. Right. I linked to it. I
01:13:28 ◼ ► remember it was when I was a kid. When Casio first came out with the G-Shock, the commercial,
01:13:34 ◼ ► the iconic commercial was they strapped it to a hockey puck and had a hockey player slap shot it
01:13:39 ◼ ► past the goalie and then show that the watch was unharmed. I wouldn't do that with an Apple Watch.
01:13:46 ◼ ► I mean, it's just not that type. So there's a market for that. This isn't that. But it just
01:13:50 ◼ ► shows though the idea that they would even re-engineer the way the crystal is made. It's
01:13:56 ◼ ► thicker. And then there's some talk on the web pages about how it connects to the aluminum frame,
01:14:03 ◼ ► that it's just more durable all across the board, like less likely to crack and less likely to like
01:14:10 ◼ ► pop off. That just shows though that Apple knows people spending four or $500 on an Apple Watch,
01:14:16 ◼ ► it's still a $400 watch. That's way more than most people spend on a watch. And they expect it
01:14:20 ◼ ► to last for years. And that commercial when you feel the person falling off the bike and just
01:14:32 ◼ ► disappointment to me watch-wise yesterday is that the entry model is still the Series 3.
01:14:44 ◼ ► sympathizing with my developer friends who look forward to the day of no longer supporting the
01:14:52 ◼ ► old original sharp cornered display for two sizes of watch. Because the Series 3 is the one of the
01:14:59 ◼ ► old original form factor with the old original purely rectangular screen. And Series 4 is when
01:15:06 ◼ ► they started with the round racks for the display, significantly bigger display, and just nicer,
01:15:16 ◼ ► Jared I was thinking like, often it's based entirely on differentiation. And I was thinking
01:15:20 ◼ ► when they and they wanted the Apple Watch Series 3 because it doesn't look like the more expensive
01:15:24 ◼ ► Apple Watch. But now that the most expensive Apple Watch has a new design, I was hoping that they
01:15:28 ◼ ► would push down the previous Apple Watch 4 design, you maybe move the SE to the low end, which is
01:15:33 ◼ ► what the iPhone SE is, and then have maybe like a Series 4 or Series 5 somewhere in the middle
01:15:39 ◼ ► ground. Also because selfishly, that's the cap point for updates. And if Apple's selling a brand
01:15:46 ◼ ► new Apple Watch Series 3, that's going to keep watchOS bound to that device for at least a few
01:15:54 ◼ ► Pete Right, no, it might, you know, that's exactly the sort of thing I was thinking. But I get it,
01:15:57 ◼ ► you know, and I know that that's sort of how pricing works. And it's not dastardly, but you can
01:16:04 ◼ ► say starting at $199, and then you go in the store and start looking at them. And when you're looking
01:16:10 ◼ ► at them, it's true of any sort of watches, but it's absolutely the case with like mechanical watches
01:16:16 ◼ ► too. You cannot judge by photos, you have to see it on your wrist, you have to look at it in real,
01:16:22 ◼ ► at the real size. And, you know, you look at the Series 3 compared to even the Apple Watch SE,
01:16:28 ◼ ► and it's like, oh, I do see Oh, that is nicer, huh? Well, all right, I was already gonna,
01:16:37 ◼ ► Jared It's that cheap microwave that you go to the store for and end up buying the nicer microwave,
01:16:41 ◼ ► it doesn't look like a piece of crap. But I'm also sure they have data that shows that there is a
01:16:45 ◼ ► segment of the customer base, that is parents or children, the people who are doing family setups,
01:16:54 ◼ ► Pete Yeah, no, no, I'm sure they do sell the Series 3 too. But it's the biggest disappointment
01:17:00 ◼ ► to me just because not because I want to buy the cheapest Apple Watch, but I just like the idea of
01:17:11 ◼ ► Jared I guess overall, we're gonna have to wait and see because the watches aren't coming out.
01:17:16 ◼ ► You know, famously last year, we got the watch before the iPhone, now we're getting the iPhone
01:17:19 ◼ ► before the watch. So it's sort of like getting the shuttlecraft without the Starship. And I want it,
01:17:24 ◼ ► it's one of those products where I really want to get it in my hands and try it out and see what
01:17:31 ◼ ► this fall, it leaves them an awful lot of leeway. I guess with manufacturing problems, and with the
01:17:37 ◼ ► chip shortages, and just the way COVID is still screwing up the whole world, they don't know. So
01:17:43 ◼ ► why not leave it as vague as possible? I would guess just based on previous years where items
01:17:49 ◼ ► were late, that we're talking mid to late October. Maybe with like reviews going out in mid-October
01:17:58 ◼ ► and pre-orders third week of October and shipping at the end of October-ish schedule, but I have no
01:18:05 ◼ ► Because they're hot items for the holidays and they're going to want to make sure that they're
01:18:09 ◼ ► Yeah, it's exactly like I said with the AirPods. You know it's a huge holiday item. Whoever,
01:18:13 ◼ ► and Jeff Williams's team is directly overseeing, "Let's get these out as soon as we can." They're
01:18:21 ◼ ► not like, "Oh, la-di-da! Later this fall, I've got all the stuff." I'm going to take off.
01:18:26 ◼ ► Pete Yeah, exactly. There's probably quite a few people who got the "Why aren't you on a
01:18:32 ◼ ► plane" already regarding this because the clock is ticking. We talk about it all every year,
01:18:38 ◼ ► but you know, a lot of people like to get their Christmas shopping out of the way or as early as
01:18:44 ◼ ► When the person who owns the product is also the COO, you have very little safety margin in there
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01:21:19 ◼ ► And you get a hundred-day free trial. All right, iPhone 13. I guess no surprises. Any surprises?
01:21:26 ◼ ► Jared: No, I don't think there were any big surprises. I mean, either because there were,
01:21:40 ◼ ► Jay: Right. I am happy that it turned out to be true. I believe the rumors were all over the
01:21:49 ◼ ► place on this though, too, whether the pro cameras would all would both be the same, both sizes.
01:21:56 ◼ ► Last year was the first time since the Plus era, circa six, seven, eight, that the smaller
01:22:05 ◼ ► pro tier phone had a lesser camera system than the big pro max, which was a heartbreaker for me.
01:22:13 ◼ ► I actually wound up, I didn't even buy the 12 Pro. I bought the iPhone 12 with just two lenses.
01:22:19 ◼ ► Turned out to be a pretty good bet because I bought it at a time when COVID was already
01:22:23 ◼ ► not good. I knew that it was going to be bad all winter long. And I thought, so therefore,
01:22:28 ◼ ► I'll only really have the summer where I'll be going anywhere. Probably took less photos,
01:22:33 ◼ ► fewer photos last year than any other year. This year though, 13 Pro, 13 Pro Max, exact same camera
01:22:51 ◼ ► Jay Right. Right. Everybody's got sensor shift on the wide angle, which is the, it still,
01:22:58 ◼ ► it screws me up because it's the 1X and I think wide angle is the one that 0.5X, but that's
01:23:04 ◼ ► ultra wide. Like I kind of wish it was, instead of calling it wide and ultra wide, they called
01:23:10 ◼ ► the 0.5 wide called the 1X normal or regular and called the telephoto, telephoto, but whatever.
01:23:26 ◼ ► Jay Right. There are, it is true though, that it's not the, oh, and the telephoto now goes to
01:23:33 ◼ ► 3.0X. So that's pretty good. Like in, in terms of like, where is Apple making progress year over
01:23:42 ◼ ► year and where are they clearly devoting their engineering resources? It's the camera, right?
01:23:48 ◼ ► I mean, I don't even know what I'm going to do for a review this year because my lead last year
01:23:53 ◼ ► was entirely that they could just call it the Apple camera. It's way more of a camera than a phone.
01:24:01 ◼ ► Jay Right. It's, it's the camera, you know, and I didn't stop watch it, but if you combine
01:24:08 ◼ ► both Kayan Drance's iPhone 13 introduction with JAWS's 13 Pro introduction, it clearly,
01:24:16 ◼ ► most of the time was spent talking about camera stuff, both video and still and with the new
01:24:20 ◼ ► cinematic mode for video. Jared So what do you think, like, just going back to the telephoto
01:24:25 ◼ ► for a minute, they went previously, it was effective 52 millimeter for the iPhone Pro Max
01:24:30 ◼ ► last year, they went up to 65. Now they've gone up to 77, like an effective 77 millimeters, but
01:24:37 ◼ ► at the same time, they've gone from, I think it was 2.0 to 2.4 and now 2.8. So they're going longer,
01:24:43 ◼ ► but they're not, but they're also going slower at the same time. Jay Right. With the aperture.
01:24:50 ◼ ► you know this better than I do with your racket with YouTube, but well, but you go to longer
01:24:56 ◼ ► fixed lenses and they get slower, the aperture numbers go up as the widest that they get.
01:25:00 ◼ ► I think there's a lot that goes into it, but clearly part of it is that the Pro models are
01:25:08 ◼ ► the only ones with the LIDAR and that's used for night mode portrait photography and for
01:25:17 ◼ ► faster autofocus in low light. So the things that would be worse because the maximum aperture is a
01:25:30 ◼ ► of the LIDAR and the sensor shift and also there's all sorts of other things they're doing
01:25:35 ◼ ► to compensate. Putting all the numbers aside, it doesn't seem like it's getting worse to take
01:25:41 ◼ ► low light pictures with the telephoto lens. In fact, it's probably getting better even though
01:25:47 ◼ ► the aperture is going up. Jared Yeah, I think that's very true. I think they've always been
01:25:51 ◼ ► making smart trade-offs and now they have a bit of the same thing that Google's getting criticized
01:25:55 ◼ ► for and that is they're sticking with 12 megapixel sensors and using computational technology to get
01:26:00 ◼ ► past those where other phone cameras are doing these massive 108 megapixel sensors and pixel
01:26:06 ◼ ► binning them down, but they're clearly making trade-offs that generate the sort of imagery
01:26:11 ◼ ► that they want. Jay Right. They're not going to re-ignite the megapixel sensor war from the
01:26:16 ◼ ► early years of digital photography. They increased the size of the pixels again this year, right?
01:26:22 ◼ ► I mean, that was one of the things and they've been adamant. They didn't even mention it really,
01:26:25 ◼ ► but I mean, like from the years when Phil Schiller was doing the camera segment introductions,
01:26:29 ◼ ► that's more important to getting overall better images than more pixels. Bigger pixels is better
01:26:37 ◼ ► than more pixels at a certain point. You know, there's obviously a certain point where if it
01:26:43 ◼ ► was only one or two megapixels, that's not big enough to blow up. 12 megapixels is pretty big,
01:26:51 ◼ ► And I say this as somebody who wants pixel binning and I want a periscope zoom because I feel like
01:26:56 ◼ ► big zoom is the last thing that a traditional camera does that an iPhone still can't do.
01:27:00 ◼ ► Jay But that's a, to go from 2.0 with a 52 millimeter equivalent in one year at 2.5 and then
01:27:08 ◼ ► now 3.0 and it's in the smaller 6.1 inch 13 Pro, that's pretty good two year over year improvement.
01:27:18 ◼ ► I look forward to it. You know, it's nice. I've missed having the telephoto lens. Like I said,
01:27:23 ◼ ► I didn't miss it as much as I would, I think most years because I didn't travel for most of the year
01:27:27 ◼ ► and even when we could travel, I didn't travel much, but I look forward to it for next year.
01:27:44 ◼ ► pointing out and Apple isn't going to emphasize because they don't want to throw their very nice
01:27:51 ◼ ► iPhone 13 and 13 mini under the bus, but it's not just that the Pros have a 3x telephoto lens that
01:27:59 ◼ ► the other two don't have. The Pro models have better 1x and better 0.5x lenses as well. And
01:28:09 ◼ ► that's not something Apple points out. Like I said, they're not going to throw one of them
01:28:17 ◼ ► Phil Yeah, the light capture capabilities on the wide angle are way better. And for the first time,
01:28:26 ◼ ► they have focus pixels in the ultra wide angle, which means it can do things that the previous ones
01:28:38 ◼ ► it uses the 0.5x lens, even though I believe the process of doing it is in the camera app,
01:28:46 ◼ ► you pick 1x. And then you bring the camera really close to a subject two centimeters is really,
01:28:54 ◼ ► really close. And it will switch to using the 0.5x ultra wide camera, but you're still in 1x mode in
01:29:03 ◼ ► the camera in terms of the perspective, you know, in the field of view. But it's to get that close
01:29:09 ◼ ► and to focus that close, they need to switch to the other camera. And only the pros have an ultra
01:29:16 ◼ ► wide that supports autofocus. And Apple calls it autofocus. But like you said, it's not, it's,
01:29:23 ◼ ► you know, it's not what you traditionally think of as autofocus, but it definitely has a better
01:29:27 ◼ ► focusing system. Yeah, I think the 0.5, one, two x or three x thing is confusing, because
01:29:33 ◼ ► I think people actually think they relate to the cameras where they really just relate to the
01:29:47 ◼ ► in low light, they will occasionally when you when you think in the UI, you're using two x,
01:29:53 ◼ ► it just means if it's sufficiently low light that the two x camera can't get a good image for the
01:29:59 ◼ ► same reason that we were just talking about a couple of minutes ago that that the longer lenses
01:30:04 ◼ ► have less, worse low light capabilities, they'll use the one x camera and just digitally zoom to
01:30:12 ◼ ► two x and just know that they're going to get a better result. And you don't have to worry about
01:30:16 ◼ ► it as a user, you just tap the button and do it. It's an implementation detail, I am a little
01:30:32 ◼ ► where I like to shoot at exactly 0.5, one point x or two point x or now, you know, next year 3.0 x,
01:30:42 ◼ ► like I don't like dialing into 2.7 or 2.3. And knowing that it's digital zoom, but I think I
01:30:50 ◼ ► have to get over that, right? Because now, there is like, it's great that you can get optical zoom
01:30:57 ◼ ► up to a 77 millimeter field of view in traditional 35 millimeter photography, what they're calling
01:31:03 ◼ ► 3.0 x, and that's totally optical from the camera. But it's also the case that the two x 52 ish,
01:31:19 ◼ ► like that perspective, supposedly is the closest to human vision, where it doesn't feel wide,
01:31:27 ◼ ► and it doesn't feel tele, it just feels totally natural. That's a very good field of view.
01:31:32 ◼ ► Jared: Like the compression, like at 13 millimeters, you look like Dobby the house elf,
01:31:56 ◼ ► wide angle lens and digitally zooming 2x. I think it'll be fine, and I shouldn't worry about it,
01:32:08 ◼ ► Pete; You know, that you're just cropping from the 1.0 view, but it's, overall, it's a win.
01:32:17 ◼ ► Pete; Yeah, yeah, 85 is often, yeah, 85 and, you know, and they just work out to these equivalents
01:32:22 ◼ ► like 77, it's very close. What else was a big camera feature? The cinematic mode looks amazing.
01:32:33 ◼ ► Will it work as well as they say? I don't know, but I mean, especially with camera stuff, they've
01:32:38 ◼ ► never exaggerated, right? Like, they've, year after year, what they say iPhone cameras can do,
01:32:44 ◼ ► they've done pretty good. I mean, we can quibble about them selectively picking portrait examples,
01:33:06 ◼ ► for years, probably still are to some degree, but they've gotten better at it. So, I would guess
01:33:12 ◼ ► that cinematic mode video will have some things like that, but it is super cool that you can edit
01:33:18 ◼ ► all of it after the fact. So, if it misses that sort of, hey, the subject turned around to look
01:33:25 ◼ ► at this other person, rack the focus to focus on the other person. If the software, if the AI
01:33:33 ◼ ► doesn't do that exactly the way you thought that it would, you can fix it in post, you know,
01:33:38 ◼ ► like with no sacrifice other than the time it takes you to go into the editing mode and tweak it.
01:33:45 ◼ ► Jared; And just the thing that always impresses me about Apple is a lot of this is just based
01:33:50 ◼ ► completely on the power of their silicon, which is why they can do these things. And they almost
01:33:54 ◼ ► always insist, like I think night mode is the biggest exception, they insist on doing this
01:33:57 ◼ ► stuff in real time. And we've talked before, like I was shocked when I did, when I used other camera
01:34:02 ◼ ► phones and depth effect, like portrait mode was applied as a filter after the photo was taken,
01:34:07 ◼ ► where with Apple you've always just seen it in the viewfinder, you've pressed the button,
01:34:10 ◼ ► and it's captured that picture. And here, they're not just applying depth effect to the live frame,
01:34:15 ◼ ► but they're measuring the frames before and afterwards so that the, like the book is not
01:34:19 ◼ ► changing in between every frame, which would be a horrible look. They're trying to maintain
01:34:23 ◼ ► a consistency between them. And the pipeline for that and the pipeline for ProRes, at least
01:34:28 ◼ ► according to what JAWS was saying during the keynote was it's everything from the Apple neural
01:34:33 ◼ ► engine to the GPU to the controller for the storage, everything has been optimized to take
01:34:39 ◼ ► this huge amount of data, which is still limited to 1080p 30, because it's just so much data,
01:34:44 ◼ ► and they're crunching it in real time and then adding that as data you can edit into the video
01:34:49 ◼ ► file, which to me is just amazingly impressive and really pays off that investment in the
01:34:53 ◼ ► silicon they've been making. Yeah, it seems like the downside to cinematic mode is that it's 1080,
01:35:00 ◼ ► not 4K, and maximum frame rate of 30 frames per second. It's not clear to me whether it's going
01:35:06 ◼ ► to support 24 frames per second. It seems like some of the material I've read just says 1080,
01:35:12 ◼ ► 30 frames per second. Yeah, that would, that's a little weird to me that they literally call
01:35:17 ◼ ► it cinematic mode and wouldn't let you shoot 24 frames per second, which everybody, most people
01:35:22 ◼ ► seem to agree is the most cinematic frame rate. But… There's already tons of complaints on Twitter
01:35:28 ◼ ► about that. It was like the first thing that the video, the video Twitter went crazy about.
01:35:32 ◼ ► But for whatever reason that's really never been clear to me, even though I've spoken to people
01:35:39 ◼ ► who would know, and it's one of those things you bring it up and they totally give you,
01:35:42 ◼ ► they look you in the eye and they know that it's a good question, and then the words coming out of
01:35:46 ◼ ► their mouth don't really answer the question. But they've always supported 24 frames per second
01:35:55 ◼ ► at 4K ever since they've started supporting 4K video, but they've never supported 24 frames per
01:36:02 ◼ ► second at 1080. I don't understand that. Like that to me is two different things that shouldn't be
01:36:09 ◼ ► tied together. Like why not if I'm like shooting something, or if I know I'm low on space, or I'm
01:36:18 ◼ ► going to shoot tons and tons of video footage, just fill up a 512 gigabyte phone with video footage.
01:36:25 ◼ ► So I want to shoot 1080 so I can get the most on the phone as possible. Why not let me shoot 24
01:36:31 ◼ ► frames per second? Because that's the sort of thing you can't fix in post. I mean, you can,
01:36:37 ◼ ► I mean, you know more about this than me, but you can shoot 30 frames per second and down sample to
01:36:41 ◼ ► 24. But it comes out weird, right? Yeah, I mean, like, that's, it's a whole long story. Like I
01:36:49 ◼ ► shoot in 60 for B roll because 60 you can divide into 24 or 30 depending on what you need. But
01:36:54 ◼ ► otherwise, you've got to use one of those things like Final Cut Pro's frame filler, basically
01:36:58 ◼ ► optical frame filler, which goes in and tries to recalculate the frames based on the rate.
01:37:02 ◼ ► It's super interesting to me. It's like I would I would make a conspiracy theory that Marquez Brownlee
01:37:07 ◼ ► got to them and convinced them to do 30 frames per second, but there's no way he'd shoot in 1080p.
01:37:11 ◼ ► So that just throws that whole conspiracy theory out the window. Yeah, I would have almost been
01:37:16 ◼ ► less surprised if they only supported one and only one combination of resolution and frame rate,
01:37:22 ◼ ► I would have been less surprised if it was 24 frames per second than 30. Even though I get,
01:37:26 ◼ ► I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, because 30 is like the broadcast standard. But if you just think about
01:37:30 ◼ ► it, four is more common for movies, and 30 is more common for TV, but only because American TVs ran
01:37:35 ◼ ► at 60 hertz, that 30 was easily divisible. Right. So let's see if they do a software update for
01:37:42 ◼ ► that. But I can't help but wonder if I don't know, there's some kind of decision inside Apple that
01:37:46 ◼ ► 1080 never drops to 24 and only 4k does. But it's obvious that the cinematic mode is so
01:37:54 ◼ ► processor intensive, or not just processor chip intensive, right? That it's it's computationally
01:38:01 ◼ ► expensive, that that's why it's limited to 1080 instead of 4k that they you know, it's it's that's
01:38:06 ◼ ► as much as they can do in real time. I wonder if it's just really simple in that movies aren't
01:38:12 ◼ ► 1080p movies need to be bigger than that. And so they have the 24 frames per second for 4k. But
01:38:17 ◼ ► television is at least in North America, it's 64 it's 30 frames per second. So there's no 24 frames
01:38:23 ◼ ► per second television. So they just pegged 720p and 1080 at 30 frames per second. Yeah, I don't
01:38:28 ◼ ► know. We'll see. That's that's my only disappointment on that. But I expect to see a lot of
01:38:32 ◼ ► this. I hope it I hope it works mostly as good as they say, if it works exactly as well as they say,
01:38:48 ◼ ► basically, you can manually pick what you want. But it'll also detect eyes and focus on whatever
01:38:52 ◼ ► the closest set of eyes are. And if those eyes look away, it'll go to the next closest set of
01:38:56 ◼ ► eyes. And if a closer set of eyes comes back in, it'll then shift to those automatically for you.
01:39:00 ◼ ► And like you said, you can change it in post. But if if that's basically what you want, if you want,
01:39:04 ◼ ► like the the standard cinematography rules of Hollywood implementation, they've given you that
01:39:10 ◼ ► automatically. Yeah. Anything else camera wise? Like the one thing that that irks me in the entire
01:39:18 ◼ ► coverage is like Apple family, like you said, they didn't talk about the A15 at all with the iPad
01:39:23 ◼ ► Mini. They didn't mention the processor for the Apple Watch. And they didn't even spend very much
01:39:27 ◼ ► time on the A15 compared to what they spent on the A14 like twice last year. And I think that
01:39:33 ◼ ► led some people to believe that the A15 was somehow under impressive. And there were some
01:39:37 ◼ ► substack articles saying that Apple's hit a wall that there's been this mass exodus of talent,
01:39:41 ◼ ► that they're no longer improving their processors. And it was too profound to me because it was
01:39:46 ◼ ► it was based off such a flimsy supposition and completely weird thinking. Because as far as I
01:39:52 ◼ ► can tell, it's going to be a completely normal year. Like they're not getting the massive
01:39:56 ◼ ► benefits of a process shrink like they got last year when they went to five nanometers. But it'll
01:40:00 ◼ ► be and I say this with like no actual knowledge of the chip. I don't I don't have it to test at
01:40:04 ◼ ► this point. But like it'll be like the 10% increase that Apple typically gets on a processor, but
01:40:10 ◼ ► their thinking is so far beyond just the cores. Now, there's only so much you can do with pure
01:40:15 ◼ ► cores with the same process given the thermal envelope of the device without having to spike
01:40:20 ◼ ► the battery like all these constraints that they have. But what they can do with the with the extra
01:40:25 ◼ ► features like the non big core features is limitless. And we're seeing so much of that with
01:40:31 ◼ ► cinematic video, which is that whole new pipeline and ProRes, which is really a lot of heavy
01:40:36 ◼ ► computational work to optimize for in a chipset. And we're getting all of that, like all the stuff
01:40:42 ◼ ► the neural engine is doing. We've got new encode decode blocks, ProRes encode decode blocks, they've
01:40:47 ◼ ► made a dedicated always on coprocessor for your fingers so that it will be able to adjust promotion,
01:40:52 ◼ ► not just based on the content, but the actual interactivity of your finger at the instant it's
01:40:57 ◼ ► doing it. There's all these things in the a 15. But there's all these articles and hot takes popping
01:41:02 ◼ ► up about how Apple's hit a wall with processors nice. I had to get that off my chest. And it's
01:41:07 ◼ ► it's true, though, right? Who knows? Maybe it is disappointing performance was I don't know yet
01:41:11 ◼ ► either. I have yet to touch an iPhone 13 of any kind. Oh, so who knows? And it is true. Like I saw
01:41:18 ◼ ► that substack article. And I guess I take him as word that there have been a lot of great chip
01:41:22 ◼ ► engineers who've left Apple for other companies, you know, and that's that happens, right? That
01:41:28 ◼ ► people leave for other, you know, so who knows? But I it seems to me like what Apple knows is
01:41:36 ◼ ► nobody is talking about their iPhone being slow. Like it's things aren't slow on your iPad. And so
01:41:42 ◼ ► bragging about the CPU being 100 and you know, 1.3 times faster, whatever the number turns out to be.
01:41:49 ◼ ► That doesn't mean anything to people if they don't feel that they're 1.0 speed. That's the baseline
01:41:55 ◼ ► is anything but fast. With Apple's thinking about our effects of the chip, right? Like you said,
01:42:02 ◼ ► like promotion. I mean, so I don't even know how this is possible. But I was looking at the battery
01:42:07 ◼ ► life spec. So battery life is up across the board for all of the iPhone 13. And it's a super big
01:42:14 ◼ ► deal for the 13 mini, right? Everybody agrees the biggest the biggest knock about the 13 mini or 12
01:42:21 ◼ ► mini was a battery life. You know, for the obvious, it had a smaller battery because it's a smaller
01:42:27 ◼ ► device. And the I forget what factor they say it's up by but it is significant. I think it's like
01:42:33 ◼ ► 1.5 hours 1.5 five for the bigger ones, right? Yeah, 2.5 for the bigger ones of actual real
01:42:40 ◼ ► daily use. And that's one thing talking to some people yesterday at Apple that they emphasize is
01:42:46 ◼ ► that they never quite know how to talk about battery life because you can run certain tests
01:42:56 ◼ ► is they mean real people really using the iPhone in a way like them, like the people at Apple who've
01:43:02 ◼ ► been testing these iPhone 13 models over the summer, when they had them in their pocket as
01:43:08 ◼ ► their daily driver. This is how much longer the battery lasted before the phone was dead in typical
01:43:14 ◼ ► in their typical use. That is significant an hour and a half is pretty good for the mini two and a
01:43:19 ◼ ► half is really good for the other ones. I don't know if you saw the optimized settings like when
01:43:25 ◼ ► you when you look at the actual page when it's optimized tasks like streaming video, like when
01:43:28 ◼ ► things are hitting the accelerator blocks, it's hours and hours of extra video watching and video
01:43:34 ◼ ► like that was ridiculous amounts more. Yeah, the compare page, which I always love. Yeah,
01:43:39 ◼ ► like the iPhone, apple.com slash iPhone slash compare and you can pick up to three I always
01:43:44 ◼ ► wish you could pick four or more I'd like to get more but it's great for just looking to try to
01:43:49 ◼ ► spot the differences between them. The video max is like 813 and 15 hours more than last year's
01:43:55 ◼ ► program. They they quote video playback, which is a fair comparison, right? Like let's say you're
01:44:00 ◼ ► going on a trans Pacific flight and you're going to watch movies on your phone the whole time.
01:44:06 ◼ ► The pro max 13 pro max is up to 28 hours, the 13 pro 22 hours, the 1319 hours and the 13 mini 17
01:44:18 ◼ ► hours. Now the thing I don't remember what last year's numbers were and I didn't I ran out of
01:44:22 ◼ ► research time before we started recording. But I find it fascinating that the 13 Pro has three
01:44:29 ◼ ► hours longer 22 versus 19 then the same sized iPhone 13. When they have the L shaped battery,
01:44:38 ◼ ► which gives them a little bit more juice. And it's the same physical form factor, you know,
01:44:42 ◼ ► same width, height and depth. But there was a lot of speculation that with the pro models getting
01:44:50 ◼ ► pro motion going to 120 hertz on the display that I remember seeing a couple articles speculating
01:44:57 ◼ ► that the 13 Pro might get worse battery life. Yeah, then the 13 and in fact, it's not just
01:45:04 ◼ ► equivalent, it's better. One of the reasons that's certainly true is because of the way
01:45:08 ◼ ► promotion works. I don't know, do you know if Android phones with high refresh rates, do they
01:45:12 ◼ ► dynamically adjust or if you're in high frame rate, you're always 120 hertz. So this is like
01:45:18 ◼ ► this whole thing that I think has been vastly underreported because like just doing 120 hertz
01:45:22 ◼ ► is not a problem. It's been a lot of the early ones that did it, they had to lower the resolution,
01:45:27 ◼ ► because it really did hit battery life or it would destroy their color management, or it would they
01:45:31 ◼ ► would have to change when the brightness level changed because they couldn't handle it. Like it
01:45:35 ◼ ► was it was a deeply compromised solution. The panels Apple using now the processor using now
01:45:40 ◼ ► is similar to what Samsung used for the last version of the note and the most recent Galaxy S
01:45:44 ◼ ► I think it's the 21. And that's the LTPO OLED and LTPO. It's the same thing as Ixo was for LCD.
01:45:50 ◼ ► That's when the iPad Pro got promotion. So that allows it to do all of this stuff much more energy
01:45:57 ◼ ► efficiently. And so this, I guess the best way to describe it is the previous implementations were
01:46:02 ◼ ► either not very good, or they were at such small scale that they could supply the LTPO panels for
01:46:06 ◼ ► it. This is the first time that you'd be able to do it at Apple scale. Right. So it's it's really,
01:46:11 ◼ ► you know, the only explanation for the 13 Pro getting noticeably better battery life than the
01:46:17 ◼ ► regular 13 is that it has a bigger battery again this year, just like last year. And it can get
01:46:22 ◼ ► those numbers for video playback. Because if you're watching a movie that again to bring up frame
01:46:27 ◼ ► rate, if it's 24 or 30 frames per second, the screen will dynamically adjust to 24 or 30 hertz
01:46:33 ◼ ► so that it's only updating for each frame of the video. It doesn't, you know, there's no point to
01:46:38 ◼ ► doing it faster. So I thought that dropping you off to an encode block, so you're not lighting up
01:46:43 ◼ ► the entire processor the whole time. Right. I thought that you know, and that's the sort of
01:46:48 ◼ ► thing Apple is putting the chips towards right. And it's like cinematic mode didn't just come
01:46:54 ◼ ► out of the software team for the camera app when they do features like that, I've spoken to them,
01:47:00 ◼ ► I haven't spoken to anybody on the camera team about cinematic mode, but I've spoken to them
01:47:06 ◼ ► about portrait mode before that that portrait mode for still photos was designed hand in hand with the
01:47:11 ◼ ► ISP team, you know, to have an image signal so that they could do it live, you know, that it really
01:47:17 ◼ ► is I know, like you said, sometimes people don't think that that Apple executives are speaking as
01:47:23 ◼ ► plainly as they can. But like when JAWS talked about that, it really is true that these features,
01:47:28 ◼ ► it's like we would like to be able to make do the equivalent of portrait mode for video,
01:47:34 ◼ ► but that it would, you know, it's more than just finding a face, it would be, you know, being able
01:47:40 ◼ ► to rack focus and do it do all this. They've been talking to the chip team for years about how can
01:47:45 ◼ ► we make that happen so that we can do it in real time and not affect battery life. So battery life
01:47:52 ◼ ► improvements is a much bigger selling point to almost everybody than being able to say that the
01:47:58 ◼ ► CPU runs 1.3 times faster and can compute, you know, whatever it is you think you need the CPU
01:48:06 ◼ ► to run faster for and I'm not downplay, you know, CPUs need to be faster, you know, and JavaScript
01:48:11 ◼ ► is slow is a slow programming language. And we all run lots of JavaScript. You know, I like faster
01:48:15 ◼ ► CPUs too. But it just isn't a compelling selling point. So I'm not surprised they didn't brag about
01:48:21 ◼ ► it, even if there were numbers that would assuage the fears of people who think the a 15 is no faster
01:48:27 ◼ ► than the a 14. The thing that I find interesting to do is like marketing will absolutely talk about
01:48:32 ◼ ► the speed of the processor. But when you talk to the silicon team, they almost never mentioned
01:48:36 ◼ ► speed like they don't mention performance. And when you talk to them to the almost downplay it,
01:48:41 ◼ ► they'll say like, you know, if we had to lose a little bit of frequency to gain a lot of battery
01:48:45 ◼ ► life, we'll make that trade every day of the week and three times on Sunday, because I think they
01:48:49 ◼ ► had this revelation early on, that efficiency creates performance, the more efficiently they
01:48:54 ◼ ► can do these things, the better the performance. And to your point, I think we're a lot of other
01:48:59 ◼ ► companies have made mistakes. It's like, we want faster JavaScript, do we need to make the entire
01:49:04 ◼ ► CPU faster? Can we have an efficiency core that does that? Can we have a dedicated Java
01:49:09 ◼ ► rendering IP on the chip that takes that away from the CPU, so we can do it way faster, which is what
01:49:14 ◼ ► they've been doing. When people talk about Apple's obsessed with performance, they aren't the
01:49:22 ◼ ► Pete: I'm trying to think what else before we wrap up, whether to talk about the colors,
01:49:26 ◼ ► starlight, apparently, again, I haven't seen one in person, but it's, it looks silver to me on
01:49:32 ◼ ► screen. What I have been told is that it is silver with a touch of gold. But perhaps not quite
01:49:39 ◼ ► champagne, like champagne would be a description that implies too much gold. Midnight, as you might
01:49:47 ◼ ► guess from midnight blue is not just a pure black or very deep gray. It has a touch of indigo,
01:49:53 ◼ ► which is a fancy way of saying blue. I think from judging anecdotally from friends and spouses,
01:50:06 ◼ ► Jared: Yeah, yeah. I was joking. Does this mean the iPhone 14 is going to be high Sierra blue?
01:50:13 ◼ ► Jared; Also, the product red this year looks like a little deeper red and blue, the regular blue
01:50:23 ◼ ► Pete; Yeah, it seems like blue is a big color this year. Even also, if we dial back to the watch,
01:50:41 ◼ ► you and I have talked about this, where they have like a color team who figures out what the,
01:50:45 ◼ ► Pete; What the popular colors of the moment trend wise are. But it seems like the green
01:50:52 ◼ ► Apple watch is such a deep green. I think Tim Cook was wearing it in his interview with iJustine
01:51:00 ◼ ► on YouTube. And it, at first looked black. It's such a deep, like olive green. It seems to me
01:51:08 ◼ ► like they've really upped their game on being able to anodize aluminum in very rich colors.
01:51:16 ◼ ► So, as opposed to the early years where even like space wasn't all that dark, you know, and the gold
01:51:23 ◼ ► was just sort of a gold tint and everything was just sort of silver with a tint. Now they've got
01:51:27 ◼ ► these colors and the product red really pops. I mean, that is like, a really deep red and the
01:51:35 ◼ ► green really seems deep too. And the blue, all of these colors seem very blue. Now maybe that's just
01:51:40 ◼ ► trend wise. Maybe they could have done this a few years ago, but at the time they felt that fainter
01:51:57 ◼ ► Pete; No, which was funny too because I thought that doesn't seem right to me. And then I realized
01:52:01 ◼ ► that I was judging it based on a mock-up from like MacRumors where somebody said they were
01:52:05 ◼ ► going to be pink. I hate, I just, I would pay MacRumors money, I would pay a subscription fee
01:52:11 ◼ ► per month to get a version that never shows me speculative mock-ups of products. Just don't,
01:52:22 ◼ ► Pete; I somehow thought that they're like sort of Hello Kitty pink phone, which I'm not even
01:52:28 ◼ ► saying Apple wouldn't make. It might be super popular, but it wasn't what they shipped, you
01:52:34 ◼ ► Pete; Somehow it infected my head and I thought it was real and I was like, I thought that was
01:52:41 ◼ ► Jared; Or like the matte black iPhone everybody was drooling about and got really angry that it
01:52:46 ◼ ► Pete; Yeah, well, what happened to that? I don't know. It seems like people, colors are another one
01:52:50 ◼ ► of those things that to me speaks to where in the pipeline leaks come from. They come from like the
01:52:58 ◼ ► CAD stage and don't come from the product marketing stage and colors are always, I would say
01:53:04 ◼ ► that was probably the thing that the rumors were the most off on, other than the flat-sided Apple
01:53:10 ◼ ► Jared; Yeah, I mean, and the people who know what the final products are, not the people who leak,
01:53:18 ◼ ► Pete; No plastic wrap this year on the phones. Apparently they just come in cardboard boxes that
01:53:24 ◼ ► are not sealed. You just lift them up and that they're going to save 600 million tons of plastic,
01:53:29 ◼ ► which seems bananas to me, right? Like, because I feel like with all the review units I got last
01:53:35 ◼ ► year, I got like four review units and then I bought a phone and my wife bought a phone. So,
01:53:40 ◼ ► we had like six new iPhones and it doesn't feel like you could ever get to 600 million tons with
01:53:51 ◼ ► Pete; Oh, yeah, because it's nothing. There's got to be nothing to crinkle. Oh, no, maybe
01:53:58 ◼ ► Jared; It's got to be something or maybe they can just get some aluminum foil and crinkle that in
01:54:02 ◼ ► Pete; Right. The other thing I guess we would be remiss not to mention is that they've bumped up
01:54:07 ◼ ► the Mac, the minimum storage, even on, and this is the best part, I love it, that it's true for
01:54:13 ◼ ► the iPhone 13 non-pro. 128 gigabytes to start, 256, 512, and then the pro models come in a
01:54:23 ◼ ► whopping one terabyte size, which for the Pro Max costs $1600. Moving the minimum storage from 64
01:54:30 ◼ ► to 128 is great and I would have, not following rumors, I just would have bet against it because
01:54:37 ◼ ► I would have thought maybe next year. Famously, Apple held on to the 16 gigabyte minimum size.
01:54:45 ◼ ► Jared; Well, they do it until it becomes, until the people stop manufacturing the smaller sizes
01:54:54 ◼ ► Pete; I was giving them credit for being generous, but it is nice that it compared to year over year,
01:54:59 ◼ ► you get double the storage for the same starting prices for all of these phones, which seems…
01:55:05 ◼ ► Jared; Well, I think if you talk to somebody on the supply side who goes through this stuff,
01:55:07 ◼ ► there are a lot of volume purchasers like in enterprise and other places that just want the
01:55:12 ◼ ► cheapest iPhone. They use them as web front ends. They do not care at all about what's on board
01:55:16 ◼ ► in terms of specs. All they are for salespeople or other people too, like logistics on the road.
01:55:21 ◼ ► And if Apple made a 16 gigabyte one, they would still buy that as long as it was cheaper.
01:55:24 ◼ ► Pete; I do think though, the nice thing about going to 128 baseline storage is that I think
01:55:30 ◼ ► for an awful lot of people, the majority of people, that is a fine size. And that's rarely the
01:55:35 ◼ ► case for an Apple product, that the entry model storage is enough storage to recommend.
01:55:41 ◼ ► But even if you're shooting recreationally 4K video, you could go pretty long, especially with
01:55:49 ◼ ► iCloud photos to keep your whole library in the cloud. But you could take a whole week long
01:55:54 ◼ ► vacation and shoot lots and lots of 4K video and you'd still have room to spare at 128 gigabytes,
01:56:02 ◼ ► gigabytes though just because the bit rate and file size are too big. But I don't think people
01:56:06 ◼ ► using ProRes are going to go for 128 gigabytes. Pete; No, right. No way. Yeah. If you're,
01:56:09 ◼ ► if you know what ProRes is and have made a reasoned decision that you would like to shoot it,
01:56:16 ◼ ► there is no way you also know that 128 gigabytes is going to vanish in like a minute or two.
01:56:22 ◼ ► Jared; And like what you said, like the one terabyte iPhone is $1600, there are going to
01:56:27 ◼ ► be a bunch of articles written about how crazy it is that there is a $1600 iPhone, a terabyte.
01:56:33 ◼ ► The people who are buying that are not paying that. It's being charged to clients, it's being
01:56:37 ◼ ► paid by their studios. It is cheap for a video camera that can do what the iPhone can do because
01:56:43 ◼ ► video cameras cost thousands and thousands of dollars. So it's a complete inversion of what
01:56:47 ◼ ► a lot of people expect the market to be. Pete; I think that there is an enthusiast level,
01:56:52 ◼ ► people like us who have it in their head that they love the iPhone and it's this thing they
01:56:57 ◼ ► splurge on every year for themselves and they really do want to get the best one. Like I said,
01:57:02 ◼ ► like lowercase OCD, like a small grade OCD that it'll eat in the back of some people's minds that
01:57:08 ◼ ► they've only got 256 when 512 and now one terabyte are available. But the truth is, they've increased
01:57:16 ◼ ► these for professional purposes to a point that people don't need. I only have 256 gigabytes.
01:57:42 ◼ ► Benji; I'll do the same. Oh, the other rumor that didn't pay, I remember there was so much
01:57:46 ◼ ► ink spilt about how Apple's going to have to hike the price of the iPhone 13 because TSMC was doing
01:57:51 ◼ ► it and Apple bakes the stuff in like so far ahead and they buy so many premium device chips from,
01:58:07 ◼ ► Pete; Yeah, iPhone storage 104 gigabytes of 256 gigabytes used, mostly apps, some photos,
01:58:15 ◼ ► because I have iCloud photos on and so it doesn't keep my photo library there and I've got
01:58:21 ◼ ► well over half my storage available if I want to leave for a vacation and start shooting 4K video
01:58:25 ◼ ► right now. So. Benji; I have 508 gigabytes out of 512 available and I use my iPhone a lot.
01:58:35 ◼ ► Pete; Right. So, really, the starting price 128, I guess I wouldn't buy that for myself,
01:58:42 ◼ ► but I'd buy 256, but I would encourage like most of my family members that 128 is probably fine for
01:58:51 ◼ ► counterintuitive because a lot of people assume that we're becoming more of a digital society
01:58:55 ◼ ► and we're accumulating more stuff, but we're becoming an online digital society where we're
01:58:58 ◼ ► streaming more and more stuff, TikTok-ing, Instagram-ing, YouTube-ing more and more stuff,
01:59:02 ◼ ► which doesn't take up a lot of local storage. So, I think it's on some people aren't using as much
01:59:07 ◼ ► as they used to use. Pete; Yeah. Anything else as we wrap up? I will say, the only thing I can
01:59:15 ◼ ► think of, well, the only thing I can think of is, again, to touch on rumors, which is maybe not
01:59:21 ◼ ► accurate at all. The rumor is that next year, they're going to drop the mini from the lineup
01:59:27 ◼ ► of new phones. Let's just presume for the sake of argument that we're talking about the iPhones 14,
01:59:32 ◼ ► that they would drop the mini and have the two tiers would be 6.1 and 6.7. And so, instead of
01:59:42 ◼ ► having only the consumer level one has a mini, there is no mini pro and only the pro tier one
01:59:49 ◼ ► has a max sized phone. They would both, there'd be one phone that's 6.1, one phone that's 6.7,
01:59:56 ◼ ► or maybe those numbers are slightly different. One big ass phone, one regular size phone
02:00:00 ◼ ► for consumers, same sizes for pro. I think there's two interesting things about that. I think that,
02:00:07 ◼ ► I'm still holding out hope and people who don't like the mini, people who think the minis of
02:00:11 ◼ ► failure tell me that it's just wishful thinking. But I still think that as people can actually see
02:00:17 ◼ ► it in stores, and now that the word might get out that the battery life is better, that the mini
02:00:21 ◼ ► might become more popular than it apparently was last year. That doesn't mean though that their
02:00:27 ◼ ► plans aren't already locked in. Their plans are probably close to locked in at this point for a
02:00:31 ◼ ► year from now. But I think the more interesting part of that is that they would no longer be
02:00:35 ◼ ► charging $1,100 to start for the big ass size. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I think they were like,
02:00:43 ◼ ► right. Like the smartphone market has matured at this point. So you got to start treating it like
02:00:46 ◼ ► the car market, which means that you start creating segmented products to appeal to different
02:00:49 ◼ ► types of users. And it was absolutely worth the experiment because the original iPhone SE was both
02:00:54 ◼ ► smaller and less expensive. And then this time they split those two. So the SE two was less
02:00:59 ◼ ► expensive. And the mini was smaller, but basically the same price as a full, full fledged iPhone.
02:01:05 ◼ ► And it turned out that that's not enough of a market. Like when you put those two things
02:01:08 ◼ ► together, they're a big market. When you take them apart, there's a lot of people who buy a
02:01:12 ◼ ► cheap iPhone, but I think it's mostly, I don't want to say US centric, but for a lot of people
02:01:17 ◼ ► in the rest of the world, the phone is their primary computer and it behooves them to have
02:01:21 ◼ ► a bigger screen to get more done with. And, but I think it was a unique intersection where
02:01:25 ◼ ► tech Twitter, tech YouTube, people who work in human interface design and at Apple really love
02:01:30 ◼ ► that form factor. And so they decided to test it. Yeah. And I look at the pricing and you can see
02:01:36 ◼ ► exactly where the iPhone 14, not pro max would fit in right. The iPhone 13 starts at $800. And
02:01:46 ◼ ► that's ignoring the $29 carrier thing that you have to pay, but let's just call it. Let's just
02:01:51 ◼ ► go with Apple's pricing, call it $800. The 13 pro is not $900. It's a thousand dollars. So there's
02:01:58 ◼ ► that $100 more than the regular 13 or a hundred dollars less than the smaller 13 pro price point,
02:02:07 ◼ ► just waiting for a big giant ass consumer grade iPhone 14 that I think would prove phenomenally
02:02:16 ◼ ► popular. And all of the arguments about how many fussy people like John Moltz just love the mini.
02:02:22 ◼ ► I think in the mass market, we all have to face facts. People love big ass phones and they don't
02:02:28 ◼ ► care about some, but some of these people don't really care about fancy pro cameras. You know
02:02:32 ◼ ► what they like a big screen, big screen. I mean, if Moltz would Jamie Maddox himself into 50 million
02:02:37 ◼ ► people, he wouldn't have this problem. He's just not committed. I think if it was any other year,
02:02:44 ◼ ► like if next year was any normal year, I think they would drop the price of the regular iPhone
02:02:47 ◼ ► a hundred bucks to take it back down to pre 5g pre OLED levels, and then slide the bigger screen
02:02:53 ◼ ► one into like on top of that. So you get like a little bit of price relief on the iPhone. But I
02:02:58 ◼ ► think because components are going to continue to go up, it's going to be exactly what you just said
02:03:01 ◼ ► it's going to be. Well, the other thing I expect as years go on is I expect even more segmentation
02:03:06 ◼ ► and camera features between the pro and non pro versions. And so that's why I kind of feel like
02:03:11 ◼ ► there's room for that gap where it's like, wait, why would I buy the regular 13 pro? I could get a
02:03:16 ◼ ► bigger screen for less. And it's literally the pro features, you know, and some investors were
02:03:23 ◼ ► so cranky, the price didn't go up. They were so hoping that Apple would test upward elasticity
02:03:28 ◼ ► on the pricing again. Yeah, I think there's an awful lot of other people who are just just happy
02:03:33 ◼ ► that they didn't. And those are the absolutely those are the people out there who've already
02:03:38 ◼ ► queued up their pre orders for Friday and have like one button to click and are ready to charge
02:03:42 ◼ ► their phones. They're like, No, no, I'm good. I'm good with not testing upwards, upwards of higher,
02:03:48 ◼ ► higher starting prices. Anyway, Renee, thank you so much for your time. I know we're both
02:03:57 ◼ ► yeah, I'm sure you'll have about three hours of videos out soon on your YouTube channel