00:00:01 ◼ ► Yeah, I'm ready. I'm recording. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Excited for later today? Is that what you mean?
00:00:18 ◼ ► We are recording on playdate day before playdates go on presale in like a little over two hours.
00:00:29 ◼ ► And I cannot wait to buy one. I would like to buy everything. I want the pen. I want to live the
00:00:34 ◼ ► playdate lifestyle. And I'm afraid that it's going to be like buying an iPhone back in the day.
00:00:41 ◼ ► That's what I'm afraid of too. Yeah. My delivery for mine is going to be sometime next year.
00:00:56 ◼ ► it's also the kick in the pants is always that we've all got friends and we're all on Slack or
00:01:02 ◼ ► group text. And it's like, somebody's going to get in. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about this
00:01:07 ◼ ► yesterday. I was thinking that someday a company is going to come up with the idea of offering
00:01:27 ◼ ► well, you could get this half-price one, and then you could say that you got it and that you played
00:01:32 ◼ ► with it and you loved it, but you only have to pay half price for it. But it broke an hour.
00:01:38 ◼ ► After an hour, it doesn't work anymore. I'm still excited about playdate. And I think I don't want
00:01:44 ◼ ► to go on about it because I have, it's just pre-orders and they're shipping hopefully later
00:01:49 ◼ ► this year, but I'm so proud of our pals at Panic. I think this is such an amazing, it is such an
00:01:54 ◼ ► amazing thing to do. And Nevin was tweeting, I think this morning about like how it was showing
00:02:05 ◼ ► Right. One of the things about it being slightly retro inspired and I like, they're not all in on
00:02:12 ◼ ► retro. It's not like they're trying to emulate a 1987 Game Boy or something, but the fact that it's
00:02:17 ◼ ► a black and white display and it's not backlit and the games are therefore relatively simplistic
00:02:23 ◼ ► graphically compared to today's, you know, millions of colors, OLED screen world is that, okay,
00:02:32 ◼ ► maybe they're a year late, whatever. It doesn't really matter because the appeal of the thing
00:02:36 ◼ ► never had anything to do with any sort of technical specifications. Right. It's not like,
00:02:40 ◼ ► oh, now the CPU and the playdate is a year older. Yeah, it doesn't matter. No, no, it's like,
00:02:47 ◼ ► it's like a NASA launch. Everything was coded to something that, you know, was locked in years ago.
00:02:54 ◼ ► And it's so funny. It's like, you know, yellow, it's like of all the colors, who knows where that
00:03:03 ◼ ► came from? And it's like, you can have it in any color you want, but it's going to be banana yellow,
00:03:07 ◼ ► you know? And it's like, I certainly, if I were leading the project to make a little handhold
00:03:13 ◼ ► video game player, yellow would not be mine. Of course, it would be some boring shade of gray.
00:03:31 ◼ ► Black. Black. Okay. Yeah. Mine is mine. For 20 years, I had an Integra that was slate gray.
00:03:38 ◼ ► And I finally, like five, six years ago, went out and bought an ILX. And what did I get? I got slate
00:03:46 ◼ ► gray. It bothers me to this day that we have a very, it's now ancient. We're actually in the
00:03:53 ◼ ► market for a new car. We have to figure this out. But because our car is 15 years old, we just don't
00:04:00 ◼ ► drive much. But when we got it, it had the perfect Acura TL on the lot, black. Everything I
00:04:08 ◼ ► wanted, except the interior wasn't black as well. It was like the, not like the tan leather, but
00:04:15 ◼ ► like the dark, like my second favorite interior color, which is like a dark brown. Right. But
00:04:20 ◼ ► there's me to this day. I mean, who the hell knew I'd be driving the car for 15 years? Right. You
00:04:24 ◼ ► know what I mean? I might have held out for a month to get the black interior. Yeah. Yeah. I
00:04:28 ◼ ► wouldn't get, I wouldn't get tan, but I would get brown. That'd be fine. Yeah. But that might bother
00:04:33 ◼ ► me as well. Yeah. And it's funny how much, even though I don't put that many miles on it, it's
00:04:38 ◼ ► funny how much blue jean blue rubs off on a brown. I didn't consider that. It's just ever so slightly
00:04:47 ◼ ► blue, you know? And it's because all I ever wear are jeans. It's just everything that goes in my
00:04:51 ◼ ► pockets eventually gets stained blue. My Integra got stolen. Got stolen like two years before I got
00:04:58 ◼ ► rid of it from a, from a train station when I was commuting back when I was commuting up to Seattle.
00:05:04 ◼ ► And we got it, and it was gone for like a week and a half, and like the two weeks was like the
00:05:09 ◼ ► cutoff for the insurance. Like if it's still gone for two weeks, then we'll send you, you know,
00:05:13 ◼ ► we'll give you some money to buy, you know, give you $15 for it towards a new car. And I get this
00:05:19 ◼ ► call from the police and they found it like out on one of the islands in the Pacific Northwest.
00:05:26 ◼ ► And so I had to drive like 45 minutes out there. And it's in the bushes. It's like all the way in
00:05:31 ◼ ► the woods and they tow it out because the battery's dead and everything. And then they jump start it
00:05:35 ◼ ► and they get in and it's got like candy wrappers and stuff all over the inside. The stereo, of
00:05:41 ◼ ► course, is gone and it smells like cigarette smoke. And it did. It smelled a little bit like
00:05:46 ◼ ► cigarette smoke for the, you know, for like the next two years. But I was so happy to have it back
00:05:51 ◼ ► because I loved that car so much. I've, it's always, I've heard that story from a lot of
00:05:59 ◼ ► people. I don't know why, but that they've had their car stolen and then they, the police do find
00:06:05 ◼ ► it. I think somebody sent me a story about, it was like a reader who sent me a story about like,
00:06:10 ◼ ► it wasn't AirPods helping them. It was like the girl, his girlfriend left her phone in the car too,
00:06:16 ◼ ► and then find my, help them find it. And it's like, they kind of found it and called the police
00:06:20 ◼ ► and, cause they didn't want to go and, you know, confront, confront the people themselves. And the
00:06:25 ◼ ► police were like, okay, we'll take a note. And they're like, no, seriously, we know where it is.
00:06:30 ◼ ► It's right here. But it's always, it always seems a little gross to me to get back in, you know,
00:06:35 ◼ ► in the car and you don't know who the hell, what the hell was going on there when it was stolen.
00:06:39 ◼ ► Yeah. I mean, it looked like the guy was living in it for several days. It was not great.
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00:07:24 ◼ ► still looks brand new. Also, it's black, which might help, but it's still, we just went away
00:07:31 ◼ ► last month and I was still marveling at how the wheels are still great. Everything's still great.
00:07:37 ◼ ► And I love the design of their interior, just a couple of compartments, but they've got like
00:07:42 ◼ ► this cinch thing. Put your shirts on, on the one side, put this thing over it, cinch it up,
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00:08:39 ◼ ► awaytravel.com/talkshow. I'll tell you what, I know you've been traveling. We traveled,
00:08:46 ◼ ► we took a little five day vacation a month ago. I forgot how to pack. I know that this sounds,
00:08:56 ◼ ► Swear to God. And even my wife who is a truly expert packer, some, you know, by expert, I mean,
00:09:03 ◼ ► she starts earlier than like 10 o'clock the night before you leave. Sure. What I do, right. She's
00:09:08 ◼ ► actually very good. Almost never ever bitches like, oh, I forgot blank or whatever. Even she was like,
00:09:24 ◼ ► which was not really so we did a bad job. I mean, the car was overpacked. And the poor dog
00:09:34 ◼ ► was at a tough time finding a place to lie down. That is one way to pack though. You just like,
00:09:49 ◼ ► Let me think here. I got some hardware reviews. If you'd like to listen to them. Sure. Absolutely.
00:09:59 ◼ ► I have the Apple magsafe battery pack. It's Oh, yeah, this arrived. I think literally the day
00:10:07 ◼ ► after I recorded my last episode, but I have it. I kind of like it. And I have the anchor
00:10:13 ◼ ► competing version. Yeah, I was gonna ask if you had something to compare it to right that the
00:10:17 ◼ ► anchor 5k, whatever, whatever their long name is for it. And here's, here's my short review.
00:10:26 ◼ ► They're very similar size. But the anchor one is a little bit thicker. But it's also a little
00:10:33 ◼ ► bit shorter. And I find that it actually is a little bit more pleasant to like kind of rest
00:10:46 ◼ ► The the difference in milli amp hours, which is what a lot of people are looking at where the
00:10:53 ◼ ► anchor one is like 4000 something and the Apple one is only like 1500 something and it sounds
00:10:59 ◼ ► like the anchor one has a lot more oomph. Forget about that. That is Apple's been telling people
00:11:06 ◼ ► not to look at milli amp hours forever. It's in I don't I don't even understand I forget it.
00:11:12 ◼ ► As soon as I learn it, I forget the the electrical engineering math of watts and voltage and blah,
00:11:18 ◼ ► blah, blah. The gist of it is they both have about the same charge in real life. If you're
00:11:23 ◼ ► charging magnetically, if you take a dead iPhone and connect the anchor one and let it go and if
00:11:29 ◼ ► you connect the Apple one, you're going to get about the same amount of charge. A mini is going
00:11:34 ◼ ► to have get to 100% and have a little bit of left it left in the battery pack. The regular iPhone 12
00:11:42 ◼ ► feel it seems like this is not scientific, but it seems like you get about 100% charge.
00:11:46 ◼ ► And then presumably, as most people say, if you have the pro max, gigantis, whatever it's called,
00:11:53 ◼ ► you get like 80%. But you probably need it less because you have a better built in battery and
00:11:58 ◼ ► longer battery life. And my first thought using both was that, hmm, price aside, the anchor one
00:12:05 ◼ ► is like 46 bucks, Apple's is $99. Price aside, even though it's half the price, I think I like
00:12:10 ◼ ► the anchor one better. It is just it just seemed like a better shape. But then I started it's like
00:12:20 ◼ ► snapping it on snapping it off pretending to use it. It felt like I liked the anchor one better.
00:12:24 ◼ ► And the anchor one has a USB C plug, which would mean you would only need to travel with USB C.
00:12:31 ◼ ► Right. And then you could like at the end of the night when you go to sleep, you could just use
00:12:35 ◼ ► this anchor thing as your bedside charger for your phone and plug it in by USB C. And then the other
00:12:42 ◼ ► advantage the anchor one has is that you can plug a USB C cable into it and use it as a traditional
00:12:50 ◼ ► non magnetic battery pack. So you could charge anything you could charge if you had like a USB C
00:12:55 ◼ ► to Apple Watch, you could charge an Apple Watch with it or an iPhone that doesn't have magsafe or
00:13:01 ◼ ► something. But then I in actual use in the in what I consider the use case for this, which would be
00:13:10 ◼ ► like, hey, I'm traveling, I'm taking a lot of photos and videos, my phone is definitely going
00:13:14 ◼ ► to be hurting. I want to keep this battery pack on the phone in my pocket during the day. The anchor
00:13:21 ◼ ► one gets pretty hot, sort of uncomfortable in your pocket hot, because I think it's not smart. It just
00:13:28 ◼ ► like the iPhone just thinks it's a regular Qi charger. And so the iPhone charges the same way
00:13:33 ◼ ► that it would charge if it was on like a desktop Qi charger. Whereas the Apple one is, you know,
00:13:41 ◼ ► they call it the smart battery pack. It is very smart, though, it clearly is not sucking power out
00:13:48 ◼ ► of it blindly. It seems like Apple's rough algorithm is try to get to about 70% and then slow
00:13:58 ◼ ► down. And like once your iPhone gets to like 70% charge, it really doesn't it it goes very slowly,
00:14:05 ◼ ► unless the battery pack itself is plugged into lightning. In which case it's like, okay, sure,
00:14:10 ◼ ► a full full steam ahead. So if you plan to use it in your pocket, I think the Apple one is is a
00:14:17 ◼ ► better product. I think if you just want a portable battery pack that could do everything, this anchor
00:14:24 ◼ ► product is pretty good for 46 bucks, but it's much less intended, I think to connect, keep it
00:14:32 ◼ ► connected, put the put the combination the sandwich of battery pack magnetically connected to the iPhone
00:14:39 ◼ ► in your pocket, because it's going to get hot. Yeah, it seems like now is a weird time. I mean,
00:14:44 ◼ ► I guess things are well, we'll see what happens. But we're starting getting back to normal anyway,
00:14:51 ◼ ► but it's a tough time to sell these devices. I mean, I certainly don't need one. And I've had
00:14:57 ◼ ► these I've had battery packs, I've had plenty of battery packs over my lifetime of using iPhones.
00:15:04 ◼ ► And right now I wouldn't, I wouldn't bother personally, but, but it probably will at some
00:15:09 ◼ ► point. Because presumably magsafe is not going to change either at all or radically or if it does,
00:15:15 ◼ ► it'll be backwards compatible for years to come. Right. I mean, it would be a gross disappointment
00:15:21 ◼ ► if certainly this year, but if even like next year iPhones come out and it's like magsafe now has a
00:15:27 ◼ ► new diameter and none of your magsafe docs work, and you need new magsafe docs, that would be a
00:15:34 ◼ ► disappointment. But Apple is generally pretty good with stuff like that. I mean, people bitch about
00:15:41 ◼ ► the fact that iPhones still use lightning instead of USB-C. But the truth is over 14 years, Apple
00:15:48 ◼ ► has had two connectors for iPhones. That right, the now seemingly ridiculous ludicrous 30 pin
00:15:56 ◼ ► adapter from iPods. Yeah. And then lightning and you, you know, there's obviously pros and cons
00:16:03 ◼ ► to the idea of iPhones switching to USB-C. I mean, the big pro would be what I mentioned with the
00:16:08 ◼ ► battery pack that you could sort of effectively go all USB-C as you travel and pack and just put
00:16:15 ◼ ► USB-C cables around your house. But the other advantage of sticking with lightning, the big
00:16:21 ◼ ► one is that all the stuff people already own continues to work. Yeah, that was and that was
00:16:25 ◼ ► what I was gonna say. It was like, you know, the minute they switch to USB-C, someone's gonna
00:16:28 ◼ ► complain that they have to get revolved or lightning cables, you know, everyone's like,
00:16:32 ◼ ► why not just use USB-C? It's in everything now. And now, you know, someone will grouse that.
00:16:38 ◼ ► But I have all this lightning stuff. So that's my review of the battery pack. It's pretty nice.
00:16:44 ◼ ► I wish it was black. It is nice. Yeah. It gets back to Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's another thing
00:16:49 ◼ ► that's probably going to get blue, right? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I mean, it's probably got the
00:16:54 ◼ ► same amount exterior shell as my AirPods case, which is completely blue. Well, it's sort of
00:17:00 ◼ ► it's a yeah, mine's blue to AirPods. I forgot about my AirPods turning blue. It's a little bit
00:17:06 ◼ ► more rubbery. It's it's or less glossy. It's not quite rubbery. It's a kind of a weird I'm not
00:17:12 ◼ ► quite sure. Yeah, I guess that compared to but it's not that high gloss finish like the AirPods case,
00:17:23 ◼ ► I mean, they're not going to change the diameter of the mag safe. No, I don't think so. Yeah.
00:17:29 ◼ ► The other thing that's kind of interesting to me is it it the magnet sticks better when you have
00:17:37 ◼ ► an iPhone case on and particularly better with Apple's silicon cases. silicone, silicon, I always
00:17:44 ◼ ► forget silicone. I think either works. Yeah, no, silicon is what they make the chips out of. It's
00:17:49 ◼ ► like, Oh, you're, you're right. I think right. Is that right? I think you're right. But the
00:17:54 ◼ ► other right but the Apple, you know, rubber cases, it really snaps well to include and better than it
00:18:01 ◼ ► does to a naked uncased iPhone. It it has it has good pull it straight back magnetic strength,
00:18:12 ◼ ► but not very good twisty strength, you know, so it's just like taking an Oreo part. You don't want
00:18:18 ◼ ► to pull it apart. You want to twist a little right? You twist first. Or it including with
00:18:26 ◼ ► the Numino, which is of course the official same of course, yes, yeah, of the talk show, right.
00:18:31 ◼ ► But the side to side angle, it's a little twisty, but you put it put one of Apple's cases on and it
00:18:37 ◼ ► sticks even more. And I think it has something to do with in in Apple's mag safe cases, the,
00:18:44 ◼ ► the battery, the pass through battery is closer to the surface than it is through the glass back
00:18:50 ◼ ► of the naked phone itself. Right. I don't know. So yeah, it's gotta be something like that. But
00:19:00 ◼ ► My next product review is the fine folks at Logitech sent me their keyboard cover for the iPad.
00:19:13 ◼ ► So I have the 11 inch iPad Pro. And they sent me their their keyboard cover. It's sort of a direct
00:19:20 ◼ ► competitor against Apple's magic keyboard. Except, you know, the difference is you have to,
00:19:25 ◼ ► you have to put the iPad itself in a case sort of right case magnetically snaps to the keyboard.
00:19:32 ◼ ► And this is the one with the kick with it's got a kickstand on the it's got a kickstand. Yeah,
00:19:36 ◼ ► in the back, which is it works very well. I if you want to keep your iPad in a case, this is a
00:19:43 ◼ ► tremendous product. And and the keyboard, I think is very fine. It's very comparable to Apple's.
00:19:48 ◼ ► They made the exact same weird layout decision weird to me for the 11 inch where the left
00:19:56 ◼ ► bracket, you know, like square bracket or curly bracket with shift is a full size key next to P.
00:20:02 ◼ ► But the right bracket is a half size key. Yeah, they shaved off that they shaved off the
00:20:08 ◼ ► keys on the Android, right. But why not just make instead of making one full size and one half size,
00:20:15 ◼ ► why not just make them both three quarter size and then or at least symmetrical. The asymmetry of
00:20:20 ◼ ► this bracket keys bothers me all the time, even though I don't type that many. But I do type more
00:20:25 ◼ ► than most people because markdown uses square brackets. So I guess I shouldn't say I don't use
00:20:31 ◼ ► those keys more than most people. I probably use it more than most people. I was I was comparing
00:20:37 ◼ ► my use of square brackets only against Objective C programmers. And then I realized, yeah, I realized
00:20:43 ◼ ► that you can't write Objective C on an iPad anyway. It's the only the only programming you could do
00:20:49 ◼ ► would be with Swift and Swift playground. So yeah, I take it back. I probably am the number one
00:20:54 ◼ ► square bracket user. Anyway, it's a tremendous product. The biggest difference is just whether
00:20:59 ◼ ► or not you want your iPhone or iPad in a case, you know, yeah. So and it's a nice case and it
00:21:06 ◼ ► fits well and it doesn't you know, it's got a cutout for the pencil at the top. It all works
00:21:10 ◼ ► very well. So I am I am such a it does look like a nice product. And I'm glad to see that. And my
00:21:15 ◼ ► understanding is that they and the bridge seemed to like early on, I think bridge had a little
00:21:19 ◼ ► trouble getting the trackpad working correctly with iPad OS, but that they seem to have worked
00:21:28 ◼ ► out most of those issues and or at least all or maybe even all of them. Because based on some
00:21:33 ◼ ► reviews from Jason Snell that I read. Yeah. It's called the combo touch. That's what they call this
00:21:40 ◼ ► product is the the combo touch and it's 200 to $230. So it's cheaper than Apple cheaper.
00:21:46 ◼ ► Has like a fabric cover. I like it. It's a very nice, very nice feel. I feel it's going to wear
00:21:52 ◼ ► better than Apple's Magic Keyboard Cover, which just sort of picks up grease stains like the
00:21:57 ◼ ► rubber. And now that it comes in white, yeah, yeah. And it's gonna get blue jeans gonna get blue.
00:22:14 ◼ ► Well, I think I think the 90s styles are coming back right like the baggy pants. I know I just
00:22:24 ◼ ► saw pictures are not far from coming back. I know I just saw that I saw somebody you know,
00:22:28 ◼ ► I'm of the age now like where I'm so out of it where it used to be like they'd say like what's
00:22:35 ◼ ► in style now and I'd look and I think wow I'm getting old because that doesn't look right to me
00:22:39 ◼ ► and now I'm like I'm like are you putting me on is this a joke? Is this a gag site? Let me look at
00:22:46 ◼ ► the URL. Yeah, it's like oh no apparently the kids are dressing in sizes three sizes too large like
00:22:52 ◼ ► we did in the 90s. My dad used to buy like probably still does suits from Brooks Brothers,
00:22:59 ◼ ► right? And, and, you know, he got he got into a style and I think the 60s and he never changed it
00:23:06 ◼ ► all through all through the 70s when there was, you know, wide wide everything. He stayed,
00:23:13 ◼ ► he stayed with this like, not skinny particularly but you know, certainly not wide lapels and stuff
00:23:20 ◼ ► like that and he kept all those suits for years and just wore them over and over again until they
00:23:24 ◼ ► wore out and then he'd go buy exactly the same thing over again from Brooks Brothers and I'm
00:23:29 ◼ ► getting to the point where I'm like that's actually a really good idea. And then eventually it comes
00:23:33 ◼ ► back into style. Yeah, eventually you know, I mean half the time you're going to be in style,
00:23:37 ◼ ► half the time you're going to be out of style. What difference does it make? Yeah, eventually
00:23:39 ◼ ► you're going to go back and they're going to be like sorry sir we can't help you we're out
00:23:43 ◼ ► because that's that's a very popular style. Yeah, right. And they're going to think you're,
00:23:51 ◼ ► All right, let me take another break here and thank our next sponsor. It's our good friends
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00:25:15 ◼ ► the NSO group thing, but I still haven't written about it because it's just been hard for me to
00:25:32 ◼ ► Yeah. But I sent you a link that I didn't see and I just posted it to Daring Fireball before
00:25:37 ◼ ► starting the show. But a reader pointed it to me and I was like, "I forgot about that." And yet,
00:25:48 ◼ ► But a year ago in April, there was a story that came out in Motherboard reported by Joseph Cox
00:25:55 ◼ ► that the people from the NSO group, the same group that we've been talking about with this
00:26:01 ◼ ► Amnesty International Pegasus project the last few weeks, came out a year ago and said Facebook
00:26:09 ◼ ► came to them in 2018 and wanted to license Pegasus to monitor their iOS users and get more insight
00:26:17 ◼ ► into what they're doing on their iPhones. Yeah. So they basically would have baked this into a
00:26:30 ◼ ► I guess they didn't want the exploit to take over the phone. They just wanted the stuff that runs in
00:26:35 ◼ ► the background to monitor what you're doing, like what they do after they exploit, right?
00:26:42 ◼ ► Yeah. But you would have to do that because you'd have to break out of the sandbox environment,
00:26:50 ◼ ► Right. Yeah, I guess. It's unclear exactly what they wanted to do, but it was related to the...
00:26:58 ◼ ► It's clear what they wanted. It's clear what they wanted. It's not clear exactly how they
00:27:02 ◼ ► Right. Exactly what sick things they wanted to do. Well, but it was from the people who
00:27:11 ◼ ► were deploying what the Onavo Protect, that was the VPN product that Facebook purchased,
00:27:18 ◼ ► and which is sort of exhibit A on the list of, "Hey, be careful with whom you choose to be your
00:27:25 ◼ ► VPN provider." Because Facebook bought this product that Onavo, which I think was when they bought it,
00:27:33 ◼ ► just a legitimate VPN, but they bought it so that they could use... Or your VPN provider
00:27:44 ◼ ► Right. And that's exactly why they wanted it. And that was the thing that they were paying
00:27:53 ◼ ► what they're doing. And it was the product that gave them the analytics, or I think it was,
00:28:00 ◼ ► that led them to make a big purchase. It wouldn't be Instagram because Instagram was too long ago.
00:28:06 ◼ ► But, oh, WhatsApp. That's right. Remember they bought WhatsApp for like $5 billion or $20 billion
00:28:17 ◼ ► Yeah. Yeah. They were like, "Hey, look at the usage of this WhatsApp all over the world. This
00:28:22 ◼ ► is crazy. We need to buy this immediately. Look at this." And they're like, "Okay." And everybody
00:28:27 ◼ ► at the time, because I think WhatsApp, which was either privately held or they weren't a public
00:28:33 ◼ ► company, I think they were a little guarded about their usage stats. Or even if they weren't, maybe
00:28:40 ◼ ► people didn't believe them. "Oh, they're just... They're trying to sell themselves." But Facebook
00:28:44 ◼ ► had data that showed that Facebook users who they care about were using WhatsApp in extraordinary
00:28:51 ◼ ► numbers and paid what people thought was too much for it. And now people think, "Oh, they got it at
00:28:56 ◼ ► a steal." Anyway, really sick to think about that. It really is. Yeah. I mean, it's really just
00:29:06 ◼ ► malware. I mean, it's unbelievable to think that they would just put that into a product and ship
00:29:14 ◼ ► it and expect to think that that was okay. Yeah. This is the statement in a court filing
00:29:19 ◼ ► from NSO's CEO, Shalev Hulo. Hello. There's a quote. So, this is in a court document. So,
00:29:28 ◼ ► the guy's presumably under oath. The quote is, "The Facebook representative stated that Facebook
00:29:35 ◼ ► was concerned that its method for gathering user data through Onavo Protect was less effective on
00:29:42 ◼ ► Apple devices than on Android devices. The Facebook representatives also stated that Facebook wanted
00:29:47 ◼ ► to use purported capabilities of Pegasus to monitor users on Apple devices and were willing
00:29:52 ◼ ► to pay for the ability to monitor Onavo Protect users." So, I guess, yeah, I guess you're right
00:30:02 ◼ ► Yeah. I mean, I don't think there's any other way to do it. They basically wanted to get all
00:30:18 ◼ ► Uh, anyway, I'm curious what your thoughts are in the larger sense on the whole NSO group
00:30:28 ◼ ► It's weird. Have you addressed the question of whether or not it's cool that these guys are doing
00:30:41 ◼ ► Because it doesn't seem terribly cool. I mean, I get that sometimes, you know, like if they're
00:30:46 ◼ ► a terrorists, it seems there are certain situations, you know, you can dream up any kind of
00:30:53 ◼ ► Jack Bauer situation you want where, yeah, we want to get these people, you know, like if we want to
00:31:01 ◼ ► save a bunch of people's lives and stuff like that. But these guys are not really, they're not
00:31:08 ◼ ► caring who they're selling it to particularly. They are selling it to nation states that are
00:31:18 ◼ ► using it against dissidents, using it against members of political parties that are not,
00:31:26 ◼ ► you know, not in power. Just, yeah. And, and, and, and members of minority groups that are
00:31:31 ◼ ► being persecuted and journalists who are reporting on this stuff. So it's like, while I think that
00:31:38 ◼ ► yeah, maybe there is a case to be made for this. Using these exploits in these ways. NSO group does
00:31:49 ◼ ► not seem to be careful enough to be putting it putting it behind the right actors. It's,
00:31:57 ◼ ► it is, it's like they, their, their, their list of countries they won't sell to are, you know,
00:32:04 ◼ ► lots of countries, you know, they're not, they don't sell to China, they don't sell to Russia,
00:32:08 ◼ ► they don't sell to, you know, countries that are accused of outright authoritarianism. But
00:32:18 ◼ ► it's like the countries they do sell to, it's, it's no, but no country, including the United
00:32:25 ◼ ► States, you know, certainly not. I mean, we, you know, you can, you can watch, you can lose
00:32:30 ◼ ► yourself watching documentaries about the morally corrupt ways the things the CIA has done around
00:32:38 ◼ ► the world, right? 20th century. Well, if this, you know, if smartphones were around in the late 60s,
00:32:44 ◼ ► they certainly would have used this against Martin Luther King. Right? Yeah, the FBI too,
00:32:48 ◼ ► you know, domestically, internationally, you know, it's, but it's the nature of being in
00:32:55 ◼ ► counterintelligence, you know, and I'm not saying it's the nature for the domestic law enforcement
00:33:02 ◼ ► to monitor Martin Luther King, you know, that's obviously wrong, and was terrible. But even in an
00:33:12 ◼ ► ideal situation, they're going to, they're going to find themselves in morally moral gray zones,
00:33:18 ◼ ► in terms of what, it's the nature of being a spy agency. And you multiply that by selling it around
00:33:26 ◼ ► the world and the, you know, the chance that it's going to be misused is like 100%. I mean, like,
00:33:31 ◼ ► Macron was, was apparently attacked, or his phone number might have been on the list, you know,
00:33:37 ◼ ► the actual, the, what's his title? Is he the president of France? I forget if they have a
00:33:41 ◼ ► prime minister or president. I forget that too. We'll call him president. President of Macron.
00:33:46 ◼ ► That sounds right. Yeah. It, and that's the part that I still find so strange about this is I'm not
00:33:56 ◼ ► quite sure I don't get why Israel, a country with excellent, you know, intelligence agencies,
00:34:05 ◼ ► and that punches way above its weight population wise militarily, thanks to it, you know,
00:34:13 ◼ ► allies ship with the United States. I don't get why they let NSO group do this. Why don't they
00:34:19 ◼ ► just sort of conscript them and say, you know, this, your technology is too, too good, too
00:34:24 ◼ ► important. We need to keep this to ourselves. Why, why do they even let them sell it around the world?
00:34:29 ◼ ► I would imagine at some point, once you develop a sophisticated and well healed intelligence
00:34:41 ◼ ► organization within your, within your government, those people eventually quit. They eventually go
00:34:48 ◼ ► out and what do they know? That's what they know. So they start up their own business. And then that,
00:34:53 ◼ ► and that kind of thing perpetuates. And you have to, and the other hand, the other way is
00:35:05 ◼ ► you know, it's the same thing like in, you know, Washington, DC, the lobbyists, you know,
00:35:12 ◼ ► funnel in and out of the government and end up working for the departments that they lobby.
00:35:27 ◼ ► do you think pays better working as a high level analyst for the Israel State Security Agency or
00:35:40 ◼ ► Yeah, yeah. Which it's, it's, you know, money, right? And I guess and when I say allow,
00:35:46 ◼ ► I get it that Israel is a liberal democracy. And like, I'm not quite sure, like, if you and I were
00:35:53 ◼ ► to start the john and john group, here, selling NSO group, like spyware, like, I don't think
00:36:02 ◼ ► that's illegal, we could start that. And it's, you know, there's no sure I when I so when I say,
00:36:07 ◼ ► why does Israel allow it? I just mean, why don't they just make them an offer? You know,
00:36:11 ◼ ► even if it's not like a legal thing, which I'm not quite sure I'm not, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm
00:36:15 ◼ ► certainly not an Israeli legal expert. But you know, you could make them an offer financially,
00:36:21 ◼ ► they couldn't refuse to be to nationalize it. Yeah, well, to just take it off the market,
00:36:27 ◼ ► because I don't think it's good. You know what I mean? Like, in some ways, it's self defeating,
00:36:31 ◼ ► where how does Israel know that, you know, if they're selling this technology to other Arab
00:36:36 ◼ ► countries, you know, like Saudi Arabia, how does Israel know that the same thing isn't being used
00:36:43 ◼ ► against them that they're, you know, you know, technology developed in Israel is being used to
00:36:56 ◼ ► Because like I said, I mean, they rub shoulders, they had very, you know, if they are not
00:37:09 ◼ ► But they're they say that once they like, give it to the government of Mexico, that then they're,
00:37:16 ◼ ► they don't know what Mexico does with it, you know, that they they're, they're careful about
00:37:41 ◼ ► Right, I guess, you know, presumably, I guess, but you know, who knows, who knows how many of
00:37:46 ◼ ► them have been around and are you so seldomly that Apple hasn't found it? Because, yeah,
00:37:51 ◼ ► it's possible. You know, if if I get targeted, and and they send me one of these text messages
00:37:58 ◼ ► that I never see, but it corrupts my phone, how's Apple find out that John Gruber's phone
00:38:07 ◼ ► well, I thought that was the interesting thing about the whole thing, right is because the one
00:38:12 ◼ ► of the reasons why Amnesty International focused on iPhones was because iPhones had better iOS
00:38:18 ◼ ► had better logs, and they were actually able to see the fact that they were infected with this
00:38:29 ◼ ► do the research on Android. Right? It's it. I and and the publicity also sort of works against
00:38:39 ◼ ► Apple's interests, right? It's like, you know, by having a reputation for being far more secure,
00:38:48 ◼ ► then when there's proof that there's that's, you know, not impregnable. It, it seems more
00:38:55 ◼ ► sensational, right? And it's right. It's like, it is a frustration for me with all of these stories.
00:39:02 ◼ ► It's always been I mean, and you know, this, we've been writing about Apple stuff long enough where
00:39:07 ◼ ► that whole argument about the back when Windows truly had like a malware, for lack of a better
00:39:15 ◼ ► word, pandemic, right? And the argument was, well, that's because Windows has terrible,
00:39:32 ◼ ► And the argument from the Windows side was no, it's because Windows has all the market share,
00:39:37 ◼ ► so nobody attacks the Macintosh. And if, you know, Apple had a bigger market share, they
00:39:43 ◼ ► would be just as bad or worse. And it's like, no, I really don't think so. But now we see it like
00:39:48 ◼ ► iOS is is more popular than Windows and doesn't have the malware problem. It is more secure.
00:39:55 ◼ ► But it's still a frustration for me that Windows is so it never gets mentioned with all these
00:40:00 ◼ ► talks of ransomware attacks, which is one of the big tech stories of 2021. I mean, there was a time
00:40:08 ◼ ► a couple weeks ago, where a big portion of the United States couldn't buy gasoline because
00:40:14 ◼ ► a ransomware attack led a company shut down a pipeline, right? Did you see the details about
00:40:21 ◼ ► that too, that they shut down the pipe? It wasn't that the ransomware shut down the pipeline. It was
00:40:25 ◼ ► that the company shut down the pipeline, because the ransomware only affected their ability to meter
00:40:31 ◼ ► the oil. That's right. They couldn't send out bills. Right. They couldn't send out bills. They
00:40:36 ◼ ► could have kept the oil flowing and kept people with gas. I mean, I'm not saying I would have
00:40:40 ◼ ► given away free gas either. But they were very, they didn't, they didn't release that version of
00:40:48 ◼ ► the story right away. It seemed that the story that came out was that the ransomware shut down the
00:40:52 ◼ ► pipeline. But these ransomware attacks, as far as I am aware, they all attack Microsoft systems.
00:41:00 ◼ ► They're all like attacks on exchange servers. Yeah. And it just goes without, it's like the fact that
00:41:06 ◼ ► these are Windows machines and exchange server systems and corporate systems. It's it's it's so
00:41:12 ◼ ► goes without saying that doesn't even get mentioned in the stories. But then this NSO group thing
00:41:16 ◼ ► comes out and it's all about how the iPhone is not is not not secure. Right. Right. And that was that
00:41:22 ◼ ► was the Washington Post's headline headline, basically. Yeah. Which is, you know, when you
00:41:35 ◼ ► it's like the reason they're focusing on iPhones is because they get more information out of them.
00:41:44 ◼ ► Yes, SQL Lite SQLite database. Yeah. I read that. I think I read that like three times. Like, wait,
00:41:57 ◼ ► It still is cool that you can do that, though. I I'm happy that you can do it. I don't I haven't
00:42:05 ◼ ► backed up via iTunes. I'm an iCloud person myself. But I'm glad you can. And it's a I did it. I did
00:42:12 ◼ ► it for years. I did it for a long time. And I don't really now I don't remember why exactly.
00:42:16 ◼ ► I think I think for a while, it seemed like when you restored the backup in iTunes restored more
00:42:23 ◼ ► of your information. Yeah, I think you get your pass, like you get your passwords and everything
00:42:27 ◼ ► like that. And then I wasn't paying enough attention and didn't realize that Oh, now I cloud
00:42:31 ◼ ► did all that, you know, did it like that as well. I was just reading a tweet thread, by the way,
00:42:36 ◼ ► and I go through this more than most people because I get all these review phones that I'm
00:42:42 ◼ ► setting up. But it's always unclear to me what the best way to up you know, to set up a new back new
00:42:50 ◼ ► phone from a backup is because now there's the phone to phone method where you you leave the two
00:42:56 ◼ ► you know, your old phone next to your new phone and it just magically transfers some stuff over
00:43:01 ◼ ► the air and then gets the rest from the cloud. Right. And I was somebody on Twitter. I'll never
00:43:08 ◼ ► find the link but was saying that that method restores even more than just a pure cloud backup.
00:43:15 ◼ ► Like if you have certain apps that Oh, yeah, that they're no longer on the store. Well, or no,
00:43:23 ◼ ► but there's some apps like I think like authy, you know, which gives you two factor code. Oh,
00:43:28 ◼ ► yeah, that you have to, or like signal, if you use signal the messaging service, you can only use it
00:43:35 ◼ ► on one phone. And it's sort of a frustration that you, you know, you could set up like a Mac or an
00:43:41 ◼ ► iPad as a secondary device to your phone. So you can use signal on those devices, but you can't set
00:43:47 ◼ ► up a second iPhone. That is a signal device you have to you can only have one phone at a time and
00:43:53 ◼ ► it needs your phone number SIM card. So every day, if you get a new phone and you want to make the
00:43:58 ◼ ► new phone your signal phone, you have to like re log into signal and, and stuff like that. But if
00:44:03 ◼ ► you do the phone to phone thing, it transfers even those apps that don't put their stuff in their in
00:44:08 ◼ ► your iCloud backup, they go directly they somehow over the air securely send the credentials from
00:44:14 ◼ ► your old phone to your new phone. So I think from now on, that's how I'm going to set up all my
00:44:17 ◼ ► phones. Now. Anything else on that on the NSO group thing? No, I mean, the only thing that
00:44:28 ◼ ► I guess the I mean, it seems like the way these things get fed is by these companies paying. I
00:44:33 ◼ ► mean, it's, you know, there's not that many of them, but they pay a significant amount of money
00:44:37 ◼ ► in order to get these exploits. And the only way that I think that Apple can improve the situation
00:44:43 ◼ ► is paying more. Yeah, I that's, I there's an angle on this where and I know the Washington Post,
00:44:51 ◼ ► I think bit into it the heaviest that Apple is doing wrong by its platform by being too secretive
00:44:57 ◼ ► and not allowing third party security researchers to do and see more on the iOS system, you know.
00:45:05 ◼ ► And my retort to that and and one of them even said, had a quote from somebody who's like,
00:45:12 ◼ ► you know, Microsoft shows the way here, you know, Microsoft is really opens themselves up to
00:45:17 ◼ ► security researchers, and we get everything we need, and we can see these internals. And it's
00:45:20 ◼ ► like, well, then how come ransomware is still rampant problem on Windows systems? So I guess not
00:45:26 ◼ ► it. It's, I could see the argument. I'm not saying it's wrong. But it's there's clearly it's not as
00:45:32 ◼ ► clear cut as the security researchers would say. It's sort of like that. If you have a dentist who
00:45:37 ◼ ► says you should come to the dentist for a checkup every three months. It's like, yeah, sure. You'd
00:45:41 ◼ ► say that, you know. You know, it's like, yeah, it's a lot of glad it's a lot of glad handing.
00:45:49 ◼ ► Yeah. I mean, it's it's good. It comes from a lot of people who want to be in the business of making
00:46:01 ◼ ► is that there's a market for selling actual antivirus or anti malware, whatever software
00:46:12 ◼ ► near can't even see the gray zone with binoculars as to what is allowed in the App Store. And of
00:46:18 ◼ ► course, they'd like to be able to sell it. But I don't think that's the answer. I think it
00:46:21 ◼ ► knows what you said that they need to pay more. And yeah, the Apple has the financial wherewithal to
00:46:28 ◼ ► I'm not saying they can put NSO group out of business, but they could by paying more for the
00:46:35 ◼ ► exploits, whatever it takes, it's a drop in the bucket for Apple. And, you know, they can make
00:46:48 ◼ ► Apple shouldn't be trying to pay 1.1 million, they should pay 20 million and say, if you've
00:46:53 ◼ ► got an exploit NSO group is willing to pay you a million dollars for will pay you 20 million,
00:46:58 ◼ ► or whatever it takes. I'm not sure the Well, I mean, I'm not sure they need to do that. They
00:47:03 ◼ ► could certainly do that. Because even if you're I don't know where the obviously, I don't know where
00:47:08 ◼ ► the cutoff line is. But even if you're just like, he may not get the person who's who says that they
00:47:13 ◼ ► want to make that 1.1 million, like Venice, our group is offering 1.1 million, you could you might
00:47:18 ◼ ► still give somebody else an incentive if you were going to give them $750,000. You know, you could
00:47:26 ◼ ► you might be able to get somebody else who is not willing to deal with some bad actor in order to
00:47:35 ◼ ► white hat find your your the exploit the same exploit, basically. So but it's just but you do
00:47:43 ◼ ► you do have to you do have to be willing to put a lot of skin on the game. Yeah, and there's,
00:47:48 ◼ ► you know, I, I get it that, you know, and they have a bounty program. And the Apple touts it as
00:47:56 ◼ ► like the best paying bounty program in the business security researchers, the type of people
00:48:02 ◼ ► who who I mean, there are people who make a living by, you know, going after these bounties. And
00:48:07 ◼ ► it's it's such an inner it's such an interesting thing to me to way to apply a rather unique skill
00:48:14 ◼ ► set, right? It's it's such a weird ability that some programmers have where like their special
00:48:22 ◼ ► talent is being able to find these sort of exploits and take advantage of them. I don't
00:48:28 ◼ ► even have a good idea of like, how it works. I don't really either. I can't wrap my head around.
00:48:34 ◼ ► No, it's how this actually happened. Like, zero day. I'm like, what? I don't even know.
00:48:39 ◼ ► I only have a very vague idea. But it's like, just all of a sudden, like, I've got access to
00:48:45 ◼ ► executable code and memory. And now I can write and say, what are you talking about? I don't know.
00:48:49 ◼ ► Yeah, how do you think about this? But they, you know, they can do it. It's a great idea. But
00:48:55 ◼ ► there, I believe it that there's a lot of these people who are involved in these bounty programs
00:48:59 ◼ ► who say Apple's program is a real pain in the ass and that you submit things you feel like you know,
00:49:03 ◼ ► you've you've got it fair and square and you don't it they they pay late or you know, they
00:49:08 ◼ ► drag their right, right. They should have a reputation amongst these people having a just
00:49:14 ◼ ► bar none, moon star, you know, right. They are to about bounty programs, what the Apple retail store
00:49:22 ◼ ► is to shopping for electronics in a retail store. It's it, you know, nobody's ever going to be fully
00:49:27 ◼ ► happy. I would like a register I can get in line for. But but it is the best. It's nobody can argue
00:49:35 ◼ ► it is the best. I had one more thought about it. But oh, I know it's the other thing to me that is
00:49:42 ◼ ► so fascinating is that apparently the technique that they're using to get in the sending a
00:49:50 ◼ ► iMessage and then having like a corrupt gift or ping or something, or JPEG and having the image
00:49:57 ◼ ► processing exploited. It's so fascinating to me that that's exactly what Apple's blast door was
00:50:03 ◼ ► intended to to sandbox. And then it's, you know, somehow incomplete. G Rambo extra, you know,
00:50:13 ◼ ► hacker extraordinaire, DME last week after my last talk show and said that it he's not quite sure
00:50:20 ◼ ► what the limits are. He doesn't have like a exact map. But he does know that some image processing
00:50:25 ◼ ► and iMessage still doesn't go through blast store as of iOS 14.6 for some reason for reasons,
00:50:31 ◼ ► you know that it wasn't Yeah, complete and maybe that's it maybe that they've just honed in
00:50:36 ◼ ► on the pathways to delivering a message that don't go through blast story yet. Right. But
00:50:43 ◼ ► g thought I think, I think I don't want to put words in his mouth. But basically, he thought that
00:50:49 ◼ ► that one of the changes in iOS 15 before this news was that blast door had expanded the scope of
00:51:01 ◼ ► I mean, the thing is, you know, if you are someone who is a high profile target for somebody,
00:51:10 ◼ ► currently, they're, they're gonna get you. Right. Right. I mean, it doesn't matter what I mean,
00:51:23 ◼ ► Which is sad. Well, and then there's still, you know, it's there's still good old fashioned
00:51:29 ◼ ► spy movie stuff, you know, and like with Bezos, right, when Bezos had his phone hacked,
00:51:35 ◼ ► you know, salacious pictures of him and the woman he was cheating on his wife with came out. It,
00:51:43 ◼ ► there was all sorts of he hired experts in there's all sorts of talk about, you know, maybe, you know,
00:51:47 ◼ ► the Saudi Arabians had done it because he owns the Washington Post and the Washington Post was
00:51:53 ◼ ► Yeah, the home of kashigi, the columnist, you know, who was an enemy of the state and they
00:52:16 ◼ ► Right, right. It's like, that's even worse, right? It's like as scary and spooky as you think it is
00:52:21 ◼ ► that maybe Saudi Arabian spies are like, yeah, you know, setting up shop a quarter mile from
00:52:27 ◼ ► your house with a little satellite dish and right hacking your phone remotely. It's like even worse
00:52:31 ◼ ► than your brother in law. That's your brother in law. It's always your brother locked. It's scary.
00:52:37 ◼ ► I think there was there was like a time where Gary I don't know what his name is. But Gary,
00:52:50 ◼ ► Gary, Gary's nervous because he knows what he's done. And it's all over the news. And it's,
00:52:55 ◼ ► you know, it's a front page all over the place. And it's the blockbuster gossip story of,
00:53:01 ◼ ► you know, billionaires weekly. And then all of a sudden, his phone rings and the caller ID says,
00:53:19 ◼ ► it felt like it was smiling spiraling out of control when when there was speculation that it
00:53:23 ◼ ► was Saudi Arabia, like, you know, I mean, if you thought that was funny, or if you thought, Oh,
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00:56:08 ◼ ► today. Yeah, I'm looking at the swim trunks right now because I was the other thing I noticed on
00:56:12 ◼ ► vacation I put my swim trunks on I was like, I like these but they're like they're falling apart.
00:56:18 ◼ ► They've got they've got a thing I should buy more really I've got like at least two I've got the
00:56:23 ◼ ► Navy in the black. They have these polo shirts that are super lightweight. Like the light and
00:56:29 ◼ ► they're so good for really hot. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, I've got Yeah, I've got one of those. I got
00:56:33 ◼ ► one of those. I love those. Oh my god. Because it's like there are times where it's like it you
00:56:37 ◼ ► know, it's gonna be really hot and humid East Coast summer. But it's like you're going somewhere
00:56:42 ◼ ► where you kind of want to wear at least some kind of collar. It is great, right. unprecedented. I
00:56:46 ◼ ► have never seen a polo shirt like it where it looks good. And I this is not I'm not making this up.
00:56:51 ◼ ► I have worn these shirts multiple times. And my my son has said, Hey, that's a nice shirt.
00:57:02 ◼ ► Yeah, yeah. I have noticed the thing about like upper end menswear. And maybe any anybody's wear
00:57:11 ◼ ► but that have a very subtle logo. That seems like a trait of upper end menswear upper end clothing,
00:57:20 ◼ ► these days. And they have a very subtle logo that is in a great spot, which is like just on the side
00:57:25 ◼ ► near the seam. It's just a little MW and and I actually really like that. I usually don't like
00:57:32 ◼ ► a logo on my clothes. But that one I actually think is really cool. Yeah, it's just sort of
00:57:38 ◼ ► subtle. Yeah, yeah. Very nice. Have you been using the Safari public betas? I have a little bit on
00:57:51 ◼ ► It's a whole thing. It is I the iPad is where I've been. I only have one iPad. So I when I put it on
00:58:01 ◼ ► right after I don't really care that much about my iPad, which is why I was like, ah, screw it beta one.
00:58:06 ◼ ► I have the beta on a spare iPhone. And I have it on the I still have the the orange iMac
00:58:13 ◼ ► M one review unit. So I was like, well, that's Apple's review, and I'll put the betas on it.
00:58:18 ◼ ► The betas for the iPad were really for Safari were really rough until last week when beta four came
00:58:28 ◼ ► out. Like, right. It really was and I get it. They're betas. And they're they're obviously
00:58:34 ◼ ► trying to react significantly and yet quickly to the to the critical response to Safari. And the
00:58:44 ◼ ► fact that iPad OS didn't quite make the cut for beta three with the Okay, we'll give you a full
00:58:49 ◼ ► tab bar. I get it. It's a beta there in rush, but it was sort of a kick kicking the balls because
00:59:12 ◼ ► and I guess the Mac is the same. I just don't use the Mac version much. But on the iPad,
00:59:20 ◼ ► I can't tell which tab is selected. Like when I look at the tab bar, and in fact, sometimes
00:59:25 ◼ ► it's scrolled off to the side, the active tab is off because it's like the rightmost and you know,
00:59:38 ◼ ► it's not just my eyes or my inability to see the slight difference in darkness of the round
00:59:43 ◼ ► wreck that indicates the selected tab. It's, it's not even in the tabs that are in the tab bar. I
00:59:50 ◼ ► find that to be just Yeah, I don't know how it's choosing which ones it's showing. I don't either.
00:59:56 ◼ ► And I don't understand how anybody who's ever used tab browsing, even if you're the sort of person,
01:00:01 ◼ ► if you're, you're an Apple engineer working on the new Safari, and you personally don't typically
01:00:08 ◼ ► have a lot of tabs in a window at a time. So it might be an oversight in your initial beta one
01:00:13 ◼ ► implementation, that you're not really coding it up exactly the way you'd want it to be, if there
01:00:21 ◼ ► are 30 or 40 tabs in the front window, right? I get it, you know, it could happen. But it's like,
01:00:26 ◼ ► you would at least think, though, that you're always going to keep the current tab visible,
01:00:30 ◼ ► maybe it would get too small, because it needs to be the design needs to be tweaked, you know, but
01:00:35 ◼ ► right, and you'd scrunch them in the middle rather than but just having it be all the way off the
01:00:38 ◼ ► side. It seems crazy to me that the selected tab isn't visible. Sometimes. Yeah. It's not. Do you
01:00:43 ◼ ► have dark mode on on your No, I think if I were younger, I'd be all over dark mode. And I'm Yeah,
01:00:54 ◼ ► yeah, to adapt. Well, so yeah, I mean, I do. And I think maybe that makes it worse. Because I'm
01:01:01 ◼ ► looking at Mac rumors. And, you know, they're a little piece, their piece on this change in the
01:01:07 ◼ ► latest beta. And, and of course, they have, you know, they have light mode on, and they have three
01:01:14 ◼ ► tabs open. Right. And so, so it looks like it's very straightforward. But it's like, yeah, like
01:01:21 ◼ ► you said, I mean, I have way more tabs open than that. And it is very confusing. It's I don't want
01:01:28 ◼ ► to rehash arguments I've already made, you know, there's only so much to be said. And but I just
01:01:33 ◼ ► feel like it's such a fundamental own goal, like, to, to, to make these things that they're calling
01:01:42 ◼ ► tabs that don't look like tabs at all. And I know that some of us have complained ever since iOS
01:01:51 ◼ ► seven about buttons that don't look like buttons. And yeah, right. But it really is true. Like,
01:01:56 ◼ ► what is the difference between the URL field, the address field in Safari and the tab indicators?
01:02:05 ◼ ► They're just they're both just round recs with a different background color and text in them. So
01:02:12 ◼ ► yeah, they've literally made it so that tabs and a text field look identical. Like they're not even
01:02:17 ◼ ► close to identical. It's not like there are two types of buttons, you know, and the whole tabs as
01:02:24 ◼ ► skeuomorphic tabs to some degree, you know, some correlation that whatever your app or operating
01:02:33 ◼ ► system you're using, that you have tabs in your browser or tabs in some other app, you know,
01:02:39 ◼ ► that works like this, you know, where you it's like putting two windows in the same window.
01:02:44 ◼ ► Or like in system preferences, when a sub panel of a preference panel has tabs, right? The tabs
01:02:51 ◼ ► always look like actual physical paper tabs, like tabs on a file folder, because it's a metaphor
01:02:58 ◼ ► that works. It's it right. You don't have to think about it. When tabs look like tabs, the metaphor
01:03:04 ◼ ► is so clear that there's no cognitive load at all. It's it's this thing is connected. There's
01:03:11 ◼ ► there's a visual indication that says this selected tab is connected to this content. And
01:03:17 ◼ ► all these other tabs look like they're in the background. And when you click or tap on them,
01:03:27 ◼ ► Jared: Firefox also uses RoundRx, which, but they have it, they have them in a separate space
01:03:41 ◼ ► And so it actually works better. I still don't like it as much because like you said, I'd rather
01:03:45 ◼ ► have, I'd like the metaphor. I think the metaphor makes sense. And why would you change? Why would
01:03:52 ◼ ► you not use the metaphor if you could? So just to be just to be different is like the only reason
01:03:57 ◼ ► that they can come up with. I yeah, it just seems like being different for being different,
01:04:02 ◼ ► which really is antithetical to the typical Apple way, which is that they don't make things
01:04:09 ◼ ► different just to be different. They only make things different when they are certain that it's
01:04:13 ◼ ► better. And, and that's, I've had discussions with, you know, really high level people at Apple
01:04:18 ◼ ► on and off the record. But they often reiterate that, you know, that what, why, why do certain
01:04:26 ◼ ► like Mac books look the same for so many years? Because they don't have a better idea yet for what
01:04:34 ◼ ► would be better. So they're not going to just make minor cosmetic tweaks just because this one's two
01:04:40 ◼ ► years old and will tweak something. No, until they have something that they feel is all together,
01:04:45 ◼ ► this is way better. And then it's an all new design, but then they'll let that stand. And
01:04:50 ◼ ► this tab thing really feels like cleverness in search of a problem that needed additional
01:04:57 ◼ ► cleverness. Right. I could be wrong, too. This is one of those things where I, you know, as a
01:05:17 ◼ ► like all of my good friends who work at IBM. But that was not the hottest of hot takes.
01:05:26 ◼ ► But I feel like my take isn't hot enough on this. But I, who knows, I don't want to state with
01:05:34 ◼ ► certainty how the mass public will react to this design come fall when these releases come out.
01:05:41 ◼ ► Maybe nobody will notice. Maybe this is the sort of thing where 95% of people just are so
01:05:48 ◼ ► just don't really think about user interfaces that adapt and they'll just poke around. They're like,
01:05:54 ◼ ► Oh, this is new. And they'll poke around, right? Figure out where the stuff they used to use is now.
01:06:10 ◼ ► Yeah, I mean, the fact that Firefox uses it, I, I would imagine that most people would probably be
01:06:31 ◼ ► But the iPhone is obviously more used because it's a more popular device. And the iPhone to me is
01:06:36 ◼ ► still it's more problematic. And I know that the latest beta put the share button back, but they
01:06:41 ◼ ► all they really did was turn the dot dot dot button into a share button. And a lot of the
01:06:47 ◼ ► stuff that they had stashed junk drawer style and the dot dot dot menu button is now just in the
01:06:53 ◼ ► share menu. It's, I just think fundamentally, the old Safari design that we've had ever since iOS 1.0
01:07:03 ◼ ► had two toolbars, there's a thing at the top, and then there's a thing at the bottom. And then as
01:07:08 ◼ ► you scroll the page, they would fade away to take up less space until you needed them. And
01:07:16 ◼ ► trying to cram what for 14 years had been two rows of touch controls on a phone into one row.
01:07:25 ◼ ► It's too much. I feel like that's that you could get into all of the examples of this particular
01:07:33 ◼ ► thing feels hidden or the old AA menu was was way more obvious for getting into reader mode because
01:07:39 ◼ ► the AI icon signifies font settings and readability. And there's all sorts of specific or,
01:07:46 ◼ ► you know, how do you get to your bookmarks, it feels very complicated and discombobulating now,
01:07:51 ◼ ► but all those specifics aside, it's that there used to be two rows, and they kind of needed
01:07:56 ◼ ► two rows. And now they only they've decided to put everything in one row. And it's too much to put in
01:08:02 ◼ ► one row. And you could you can make the argument that okay, we but we really want everything at
01:08:08 ◼ ► the bottom because we want everything to be one hand reachability with your thumb, which is an
01:08:13 ◼ ► okay goal. I think it's overrated. I think it's something that sounds like it's very, would be a
01:08:18 ◼ ► great idea. And I feel like in practice, the fact that some of safaris lesser use stuff was at the
01:08:24 ◼ ► top is was fine. That's fine. You can't put everything at the bottom. But even so make it make
01:08:31 ◼ ► the address bar right above the toolbar puts keep it as two rows, but put them both at the bottom.
01:08:56 ◼ ► I Yeah, well, so yeah, so it seems like there's going to be a 13 mini and there's not going to be
01:09:02 ◼ ► I mean, at least no plans to have a mini after that. Right. So I was planning on keeping this
01:09:07 ◼ ► for two years and then getting another one. Now I think I might get the 13 under the right idea
01:09:14 ◼ ► that it'll be the last phone that I get. I don't know. The last small phone I get and then go back
01:09:22 ◼ ► to and then probably go back to the se assuming that they keep making the se which I think they
01:09:27 ◼ ► it seems like they will do that. I mean, I it seems like I was perfectly fine when the se was
01:09:35 ◼ ► the small phone that was also the cheap phone. I like it better as a small phone that I get more
01:09:42 ◼ ► modern features with but I would take that just because I'd much prefer the smaller size.
01:09:50 ◼ ► So the rumors and I I had the rumor game bores me the older I get more less I'm interested but the
01:09:58 ◼ ► the basic state of the rumors for iPhone are this year, two months from now, they'll they're coming
01:10:05 ◼ ► out with a new lineup there. That'll either be I guess the 12 s or the 13. And as usual, it seems
01:10:12 ◼ ► like the actual name of the product is is one of the best kept secrets, you know, the and I still
01:10:20 ◼ ► wonder if that's why they don't print the name of the product anywhere like on the box or anything.
01:10:24 ◼ ► Yeah, that the boxes are so they can they can change it at the last minute or just keep it
01:10:28 ◼ ► secret. I don't know. But yeah, but then it's just the same lineup as last year. So a mini,
01:10:34 ◼ ► a regular, and then a pro that's the same size as the regular and a pro max that's the same size as
01:10:42 ◼ ► last year's pro max. But that next year, in 2022, the lineup is two 6.1 inch phones and two 6.7 inch
01:10:55 ◼ ► phones, which would, I guess imply that they're going to add a big ass iPhone at a consumer level
01:11:06 ◼ ► price, which has been, you know, like a product they don't make right the two products they don't
01:11:10 ◼ ► make right now is they don't make a stainless steel three camera lens mini and they don't make
01:11:37 ◼ ► blockbuster numbers, and may be disappointing to even Apple's projections that they've had to cut
01:11:43 ◼ ► back, you know, dial back the production of the 12 mini to make other models that it's less popular
01:11:49 ◼ ► than they anticipated. I've long just pure spitball, just a spitball. Maybe it's totally
01:11:56 ◼ ► off base. Maybe there's I just vastly because I tend to think it's a really cool product. Maybe
01:12:02 ◼ ► I'm just obsessed with small products. But I've had the idea that then to really appreciate the
01:12:08 ◼ ► mini, you need to see it in person. But 2020 was not a great year for going into retail stores to
01:12:13 ◼ ► see new guy. Yeah, really person. Right. Right. That may be well. But then I mean, I think that
01:12:19 ◼ ► well, I don't know the numbers. They know the numbers. But just from the outside, it's in my
01:12:28 ◼ ► experience, because if you're a person who I and I don't know, like, it's I don't know how many people
01:12:32 ◼ ► are like this. I know there are people like this, because I've talked to a number of them. But it's
01:12:38 ◼ ► that's sanic data. So people who bought the original se hung on to it for a long time and
01:12:44 ◼ ► love that device. I mean, I had it for four years. And it was but like, at the beginning of 2020,
01:12:50 ◼ ► it was really showing its age. It was very hard to work with. I had had the battery replaced,
01:12:55 ◼ ► and I still had to put it in a battery case, because it wasn't holding enough charge to get
01:13:01 ◼ ► through the day. And so when the se two came out, I was like, well, I gotta, I gotta get an se two,
01:13:08 ◼ ► because that's, you know, it's a reasonable size, it's bigger than I want it to be. But it's a nice
01:13:13 ◼ ► phone. And it's available now. And it's really, it's relatively inexpensive. So I got the se two,
01:13:21 ◼ ► and then, you know, sure enough, four months later, they shipped the phone that I actually
01:13:26 ◼ ► wanted. The iPhone 12 molt. Yeah, so I sold my se two, I returned, you know, whatever, got a refund
01:13:35 ◼ ► for my, whatever I got back for it, not full price, obviously, and got the got the new one.
01:13:41 ◼ ► But I gotta believe not many people did that. Yeah. Everybody, everybody who had and held on
01:13:47 ◼ ► to an se got the se and including people who were not necessarily put off by the price of the 12
01:13:54 ◼ ► minute would not have been put up by the price of the 12 minute, they got it because they desperately
01:13:59 ◼ ► needed a phone at that point. I it makes me wonder and part of it too. And I get it like it, let's
01:14:06 ◼ ► just say in some alternate universe, the 12 mini actually sold in surprisingly good numbers, right,
01:14:13 ◼ ► that it was that that they were short, in short supply all throughout this year. And all by all
01:14:21 ◼ ► signs, it was it's a smash hit that Apple underestimated. I you know, I'm not saying that
01:14:27 ◼ ► next year's plans wouldn't then include that size iPhone, you know, they could change, you know,
01:14:32 ◼ ► two years, one year is enough lead time. But a lot of this, though, Apple does plot out years in
01:14:37 ◼ ► advance. And I can't help but think that there's a chance that they actually had this planned out all
01:14:42 ◼ ► along that the mini size would only be for last year and this year. And not that it's going away,
01:14:49 ◼ ► but that they'll just keep the iPhone 13 mini in the lineup. And then a year later, lower it in
01:14:55 ◼ ► price. And it'll be like an SE or maybe they'll make a SE three that would be that size. You know
01:15:03 ◼ ► that that that they'll just put a new chip. I think I think you're probably I think you're
01:15:07 ◼ ► probably right. I think that they look at the people who want the small phone as a market that
01:15:23 ◼ ► even I who try to keep, I try to cognizantly be aware of the typical person, right. But I think
01:15:30 ◼ ► that like me and you and everybody who listens to shows like this tend to overestimate the typical
01:15:38 ◼ ► user and the other way more than people like us who really like having like you bought the mini
01:15:46 ◼ ► and I know Marco has the mini and likes it and I was so close to buying it as my personal phone
01:15:51 ◼ ► and still sort of feel like maybe I should have because it was the one year where I didn't need
01:15:55 ◼ ► long battery life blah blah blah. I love that it's there. But that market I think is small compared
01:16:02 ◼ ► to the number of people who want an iPhone that works like their old iPhone and has a button that
01:16:09 ◼ ► they put their thumb on and they click the button to go home. And I think that's true. I think that
01:16:16 ◼ ► market is huge. I know and I, you know, anecdotal, but that's my mom has the SE two because she
01:16:23 ◼ ► replaced like I think it was a six s that just could not hold. That's what my mom that's what
01:16:28 ◼ ► my mom currently has. Yeah, she has a success. And I was like, you got to get an SE two. And
01:16:32 ◼ ► you know, and she was it the battery was so I don't even know what was going on because like
01:16:37 ◼ ► the battery health I was, you know, and it was all last year all remote when you know, during
01:16:42 ◼ ► the stretch where I hadn't seen, you know, didn't see my parents for God, I guess it was a year or
01:16:47 ◼ ► whatever. So it was all tech support over the phone with mom. But like, the battery thing in
01:16:55 ◼ ► settings wasn't saying it was terrible. I think she was like it was saying it was like 85% or
01:17:00 ◼ ► something. And it wasn't terrible. But she was getting she'd like, she'd like leave the house
01:17:06 ◼ ► and like three hours later, her phone was dead. I was like, well, that's not right. And it's like,
01:17:10 ◼ ► we try to reset and restore from iCloud, nothing really is like, you know what, you shouldn't even
01:17:15 ◼ ► get this fixed. Let's get your phones old. Let's get you the SE two. But there was no question just
01:17:20 ◼ ► looking at the website, she, she didn't want anything to do with the phones that didn't have
01:17:25 ◼ ► a button down there. She just I think it's very hard to get a grasp on how many people are like
01:17:34 ◼ ► that. And I see it like I look, I often read the comments on Mac rumors. You see it even like
01:17:39 ◼ ► people who are enthusiastic enough to be like commenting on Mac rumors. There's a lot of people
01:17:54 ◼ ► touch ID on the screen, right? So it'll be interesting to see. I mean, I assume eventually
01:18:02 ◼ ► they're going to try and put that in. Because it's been not just because of that patent,
01:18:06 ◼ ► but because they've been talking about it for years. And I think they would probably keep both,
01:18:11 ◼ ► right? They would keep face ID and touch ID on the same device. But it'd be interesting to see
01:18:18 ◼ ► I still think that those people want the button. Like, like, like, I tried to tell my mom like,
01:18:26 ◼ ► okay, you got to do now you do the same thing, except on the screen. I don't know how well that's
01:18:30 ◼ ► going to work. No, and I it's, it's sort of new territory for Apple. Like Apple, you know,
01:18:36 ◼ ► as at a philosophical level, has always moved stuff ahead and deprecated stuff, right? Like,
01:18:44 ◼ ► you can't run 32 bit apps anymore. You know, they they they warn people wasn't like they pulled the
01:18:49 ◼ ► rug on them and like, surprise, this phone, here's a new phone, and it doesn't run any of the 32 bit
01:18:54 ◼ ► apps. You know, they come out at WWDC and say, we're moving to 64 bit, we're going to deprecate
01:19:00 ◼ ► 32 bit apps at some point. And you know, you can kind of read between the lines and think,
01:19:10 ◼ ► you know, you can run like old DOS programs from 1983. And they still run in the terminal in
01:19:15 ◼ ► Windows and when 32 apps still work, and you know, you can defend both philosophies, but Apple's has
01:19:23 ◼ ► always been to move stuff forward. And I kind of, you know, but then that philosophy runs into
01:19:30 ◼ ► reality of human psychology when you have over a billion iPhones in use, right? I think that's what
01:19:38 ◼ ► they said at the in the the the analyst call this week with Apple's results, was they were one of
01:19:46 ◼ ► the questions was about active devices or something and and they clarified that it's over a billion,
01:19:52 ◼ ► you know, like 1.4 billion devices in use, but like over a billion of them are iPhones.
01:19:57 ◼ ► Like, that's crazy. Yeah, it was, you know, that's like one out of every seven people on the planet
01:20:04 ◼ ► is using an iPhone. And most of those people are not enthusiasts who really look forward to,
01:20:10 ◼ ► whether it's a better design or not, I think it's a better design. I love the new iPhone 10 era,
01:20:18 ◼ ► okay, just swipe up from the bottom instead of having a button. I think it's a better design,
01:20:29 ◼ ► mindset is where I really have to think about like, what the reaction to the new Safari on iOS
01:20:35 ◼ ► 15 is going to be, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know, we'll see. You're so you're thinking
01:20:44 ◼ ► about buying the new mini? I think, I think that's probably the smart money at this point. Like,
01:20:59 ◼ ► phones though, after having rocked the S series for four years. That's what I said. That's what
01:21:02 ◼ ► I told my wife. I said, I had the same phone for four years. But now, yeah, but now I'm going to
01:21:08 ◼ ► get like, I got two last year. And then I'm going to get another one this year. That's, yeah. So now
01:21:14 ◼ ► I'm overdoing it. Somebody has a problem. Yeah. I mean, if it's, I only remember what plan I'm on.
01:21:19 ◼ ► I think I'm on, I think I'm on, I think I'm on a Verizon. I think I got a Verizon plan this time.
01:21:24 ◼ ► So I, if I could get the new phone, I probably will, I will, you know, without changing anything,
01:21:34 ◼ ► I will definitely do it. All right, let me take a break here and thank our next sponsors,
01:21:37 ◼ ► our good friends at Linode. That's I host Daring Fireball at Linode. And I love them. I think
01:21:43 ◼ ► they're just a terrific company. Go to linode.com slash the talk show and see why Linode has been
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01:23:19 ◼ ► for a free account. You get 100 bucks in credit, 100 bucks just because you listened to the show
01:23:52 ◼ ► Dave Asprey I am too. I love it. I have a review of it that I feel I keep hesitating to write it
01:24:00 ◼ ► on Daring Fireball. I'll tell it to you here. I'll let listeners of the show. I know it's going to
01:24:04 ◼ ► make a certain crowd very angry. I think Loki is the best season of Doctor Who ever made.
01:24:24 ◼ ► behind. Like Jonas and I tend to fall seasons behind because I get confused about when BBC
01:24:29 ◼ ► shows are available. And then we fall behind and then like binge them over Christmas or something
01:24:34 ◼ ► like that. But it's that type of sci fi sort of time travel alternate thing. It's like if you like
01:24:44 ◼ ► Doctor Who, you're gonna love Loki. And it's so smart. And I'm, I just adore the art direction.
01:24:51 ◼ ► It is that's absolutely amazing stuff. Just like these are just gadgets that look old but new. And
01:25:03 ◼ ► what was we just talked about this earlier? This thing because I was thinking I was gonna bring
01:25:08 ◼ ► that up like the temp pad. And, and the design of that. Oh, I was thinking because you were talking
01:25:13 ◼ ► about the 30 pin connector, I think made me think of that. It's like I want to I want to go back and
01:25:19 ◼ ► like get like maybe I think I still have an iPhone 4. Like see if I could make it look like a temp pad.
01:25:26 ◼ ► Just like build a case around the outside. I wonder I so the temp pad for people who have I
01:25:33 ◼ ► don't want to spoil it. I really recommend it if you have Disney Plus. And even if you don't like
01:25:45 ◼ ► right, which are these big blockbuster three hour amusement park rides. I enjoyed all of them. But
01:25:52 ◼ ► you know, like the last two are sort of just big battle royale. Everybody's punching each other
01:25:59 ◼ ► for three hours. Right. Crashing skyscrapers. Loki is low key. And it's about characters and
01:26:23 ◼ ► out from the Avengers movie, the first Avengers movie and goes on this, this real journey.
01:26:31 ◼ ► and you can see why in addition to just, you know, Disney writing Tom Hiddleston a check,
01:26:37 ◼ ► you know, like that has enough zeros at the end that he'd agreed that you can see why an actor
01:26:42 ◼ ► would say, Yeah, all right. This concept, sure. I'm in this is this actually seems like a lot of
01:26:49 ◼ ► fun to play because it's not just me getting CGI thrown into walls. Right? Nonstop. It is actual
01:26:57 ◼ ► acting. It's good work. Yeah, yeah. There was, there was a panel sort of zoom thing with all
01:27:04 ◼ ► the actors from the three Marvel TV shows that they've done so far. And Anthony Mackie was giving
01:27:10 ◼ ► him a hard time because he apparently conducted a Loki seminar. And he was instructing, you know,
01:27:20 ◼ ► like when they started the show, he sat down a bunch of people and talked to them for hours
01:27:25 ◼ ► about the character, which was funny. And you know, Mackie gives everybody a hard time. But
01:27:30 ◼ ► I think it's also interesting and I think a credit to Hiddleston that he cares enough about the
01:27:38 ◼ ► character and is invested in it so much that he can talk about the character for hours on end
01:27:43 ◼ ► and like and go into deep detail about so many different aspects. And, and he's, I think I've
01:27:50 ◼ ► always thought he was terrific. I mean, from the from the Thor movie, which is not necessarily one
01:27:55 ◼ ► of the best ones, but I think it's a very good movie. And because I enjoy all of them, really,
01:28:00 ◼ ► he just that that moment when he sort of, you know, like his when Thor says this is madness,
01:28:07 ◼ ► and he like sort of spits at him like, is it is it like he like he doesn't even know he's gone so
01:28:12 ◼ ► far off the deep end that he's not even sure what he's doing anymore. He's just reacting. And I
01:28:21 ◼ ► I called him Hiddleston. His name is Hiddleston. I don't know why I feel Hiddleston rolls off my
01:28:40 ◼ ► Oh, I never saw Oh, you should absolutely try to do it. This is my recommendation of the week is to
01:28:47 ◼ ► to watch the limited series. The Night Manager. It's based with Hugh with Hugh Laurie. Yeah,
01:28:58 ◼ ► I always say this, like Hitchcock used to famously say that he never read novels, because
01:29:06 ◼ ► he learned that you can't whatever makes a good novel good. It's too much to fit in a two hour
01:29:12 ◼ ► movie. And but so he doesn't want to see he doesn't want to be tempted by great stories from a novel.
01:29:18 ◼ ► So he likes to read he used to read short stories because short stories turn into two hour movies
01:29:23 ◼ ► much more naturally. And I love it's one of the great things about modern premier TV that you can
01:29:30 ◼ ► make. Like, if you have a six hour story to tell, you can make it six hours, you don't have to cut
01:29:37 ◼ ► it to three, you know, and have Oh, my God, one three hour movie. And it's like, I got, you know,
01:29:42 ◼ ► this isn't right. You can just tell a six hour story, or you could tell a 10 hour story. And
01:29:46 ◼ ► the Night Manager is that sort of thing. And it there were rumors that you know, that he was into
01:29:53 ◼ ► running to maybe be James Bond at some point. And you could see it, I think you could see it with
01:29:59 ◼ ► Loki, which is weird, because Loki isn't James Bond like at all. But you know, there's but in
01:30:05 ◼ ► that series, you could see it in him. But the Night Manager is sort of a spy movie. You can
01:30:10 ◼ ► definitely see how he could do it. And he'd be very cool. Yeah, I'll check. I'll check that out.
01:30:14 ◼ ► Good cast. Yes. Olivia. Olivia Coleman. Oh, it's a terrific cast. It's really it's really
01:30:18 ◼ ► unbelievable. So anyway, the Night Night Manager is my pick of the week. I swear to God, it's so
01:30:24 ◼ ► good. It's really good. Yeah, so the temp pad, I don't want to spoil it. But the temp pad is like
01:30:31 ◼ ► a little iPhone size sort of Palm pilot II thing and and the tech in the Loki in this Loki series
01:30:39 ◼ ► world is all of this sort of retro. Like a mishmash of like, stuff from the 50s 60s 70s 80s,
01:30:48 ◼ ► you know that in the temp pad, it reminds me to do what's the game? It's like, it's called like a
01:30:55 ◼ ► Pip Boy or something. One of the there's like some post apocalyptic video game where where the tech
01:31:02 ◼ ► sort of looks like this, but it doesn't really matter. But it's all very cool. But it's like a
01:31:07 ◼ ► one bit screen. It's like a like a like a black screen with just orange picture. Oh, and that's
01:31:12 ◼ ► that's what Yeah, that's I think that's what I was thinking of when we were talking about the
01:31:15 ◼ ► playdate. Right, right. No, it all ties together. Yeah. Yeah, no, and yeah, and then there's Miss
01:31:22 ◼ ► Meneses. Who is a fallout is the name of the game. And there's this technology. Okay. You I'm sure
01:31:32 ◼ ► Hank, I didn't be the Hank. I'm sure hang split it. I Yeah, it's like a big wrist computer that
01:31:37 ◼ ► the that you that your character plays in Fallout. And it's sort of is like that where it's a one bit
01:31:43 ◼ ► display. And looks old school, even though it takes place in the future. And the Pip Boy is
01:31:48 ◼ ► how you interact with all of your it's like the HUD for the video game. It's all very clever.
01:31:53 ◼ ► I was saying to you, I don't think it would work. I mean, and again, to be, you know, a good way to
01:31:59 ◼ ► flush millions of dollars down the toilet, but if somebody were to start, you know, some idea of
01:32:06 ◼ ► like, what, what kind of cell phone could somebody make that? That would be interesting, but yet
01:32:15 ◼ ► isn't even trying to completely against high end Samsung and iPhones. You can't beat Apple and
01:32:20 ◼ ► Samsung on display technology. What if you made like a super retro looking phone that was like,
01:32:25 ◼ ► acted like a modern smartphone and was all, you know, like a temp pad? Like, would hipsters buy it?
01:32:38 ◼ ► But like the playdate of cell phones, you know, something like that, you know, would have to be
01:32:42 ◼ ► backlit. But what if it just was orange pixels on a black screen? And it just looked like that. And
01:32:47 ◼ ► it was like your way of asserting, I'm so hip that I don't even have a color. I don't have a color
01:33:01 ◼ ► you'd have to have, I put too much thought into this, but it's like, have you ever seen,
01:33:06 ◼ ► like, I think Hockenberry made one, right? Icon factory made like a pixel camera that takes
01:33:11 ◼ ► black and white. Oh, yeah. Yeah, right. Right. Right. Yeah. That looked like they're dithered
01:33:16 ◼ ► for the classic black and white Macintosh back in the day. So like, you could do it. You could take,
01:33:22 ◼ ► I mean, presumably, if, if such some idiot actually made this idea, I'm talking about made
01:33:35 ◼ ► full color images, but on the one bit display show it, right? Yeah. Yeah. I have, I got a
01:33:42 ◼ ► Kobo e-reader a couple weeks ago. And one of the things I only just discovered yesterday was that
01:33:50 ◼ ► it's got a bunch of beta features, and one of them is a web browser. So it's just interesting
01:33:55 ◼ ► to browse the web in, you know, on an E-ink device, which is, you know, a little bit similar
01:34:03 ◼ ► to what you're talking about. Just, it's not, it's not pixeled very much, but it's, it's all
01:34:08 ◼ ► in black and white. I'm trying to remember that it was like the tail end of the Newton era,
01:34:13 ◼ ► coincided with the rise of the web. And there was a, there was a web browser for the Newton.
01:34:19 ◼ ► I'm trying to remember what it was. Nootskate. Nootskate. No, that wasn't the name, was it?
01:34:26 ◼ ► There were, oh yeah, that was definitely one of them. Anyway, I don't know if maybe there
01:34:29 ◼ ► were more. Maybe. The icon factories app is called bit cam, B I T C A M. Yeah. I'll put it in the
01:34:37 ◼ ► show notes. I swear it's the world's most advanced camera for your mini pocket computer. That's right.
01:34:42 ◼ ► I can't, I can't find it. I'm sure I'm right. I, you know, I, I'm an idiot. I'd buy it. I,
01:34:48 ◼ ► if somebody made like a $300 cell phone with a, you know, and what if the choices were just
01:35:09 ◼ ► Yes, for sure. And you know, it would be like 0.00000000001% of the population would buy one.
01:35:23 ◼ ► I've even heard of it, but I would dig it. And especially if like the industrial design looked
01:35:28 ◼ ► like a 1983 Apple II or something, you know, maybe. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know,
01:35:35 ◼ ► I mean, you know, most of the, like, or I don't know about most of them, but many of the show
01:35:38 ◼ ► runners for Loki were big fans of madman. I did not know that. Yeah. Yeah. So that was one of the,
01:35:47 ◼ ► you know, that was one of the reasons why they sort of have that aesthetic of like a 1960s office.
01:35:58 ◼ ► Well, and like the furniture. Yeah, that makes, I mean, I guess it makes sense, you know, I mean,
01:36:04 ◼ ► you don't have to even know that they've ever even heard of madman to know that they're fans of 60s
01:36:09 ◼ ► architecture and furniture and clothing and style and stuff like that. Yeah. All right. I have one
01:36:16 ◼ ► more sponsor to thank. It's our good friends at Squarespace. You guys know Squarespace.
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01:37:46 ◼ ► squarespace.com/talkshow. And when you use that and remember that code talk show, after the 30-day
01:37:56 ◼ ► free trial, if you enter that code talk show, you get 10% off your first purchase. So my thanks to
01:38:00 ◼ ► Squarespace for their continuing support of the show. Any other summer watching, any other movies
01:38:06 ◼ ► or TV shows that caught your eye? Well, there's this little show, I don't know if you've heard
01:38:11 ◼ ► of it. It's called Ted Lasso. They had their biggest viewing episode, I guess, the biggest
01:38:23 ◼ ► viewing for the season two premiere for Ted Lasso. Yeah, well, it's such an interesting era now that
01:38:29 ◼ ► we're sort of set. It struck me when I looked at the Emmy nominations, and I'm not a big awards guy.
01:38:35 ◼ ► I tend to think the awards never go to the best show. The Emmys seem to be the one that I agree
01:38:41 ◼ ► with the most, though. It seems like Emmys tend to stand the test of time better than the Oscars.
01:38:48 ◼ ► The Oscars often are like, you look back and you're like, "That won? What?" But the Emmys
01:38:57 ◼ ► really struck me as to how clearly, it's no longer a transition from traditional networks to streaming
01:39:06 ◼ ► services for where the best shows are. It's already over. And the networks just show stuff like
01:39:13 ◼ ► reality shows and game shows. I don't know, I guess old people still watch Tom Selleck on CBS.
01:39:21 ◼ ► I don't know. But the other cool thing about the streaming era is there's no penalty for being late
01:39:30 ◼ ► to a show. In the old days, if you didn't watch shows when they were on, you just missed it.
01:39:36 ◼ ► And somebody would be like, "Do you ever watch Cheers?" And you'd be like, "No, what's that?"
01:39:40 ◼ ► And they're like, "Oh my God, it's hilarious. It's about this group of people in a bar in
01:39:43 ◼ ► Boston. It's just terrific. It's such a smart show." And you're like, "Oh." And then you're
01:39:47 ◼ ► like, "When's it come back on?" They're like, "September." And you're like, "Okay, I'll try
01:39:51 ◼ ► to remember to watch it." And you had no chance to catch up on season one because they didn't go into
01:39:55 ◼ ► reruns until years later. And now— Well, it's still that way. It's still that way with my parents.
01:39:59 ◼ ► Well, my parents too, definitely. Because while we were with them, we showed them an episode of
01:40:06 ◼ ► Holy Moly. Have you ever seen Holy Moly? No. Holy Moly is a show that I got into during the pandemic.
01:40:14 ◼ ► And the first season is, I think on YouTube, at least it was when I started watching it. And then
01:40:33 ◼ ► It's hilarious. I think it's hilarious. It's super dumb. It is exceedingly dumb. But it's
01:40:38 ◼ ► got Rob Riggle, who is always a delight. And it's just, you know, I mean, they have holes,
01:40:47 ◼ ► as they possibly can. So we watched it, you know, my parents are super into golf. And so we watched
01:40:52 ◼ ► it with my parents, and they just thought it was absolutely hilarious. And my mom was like, "How
01:40:58 ◼ ► can I see Holy Moly?" I was like, "Well, for you, you got to watch it." You know, there's days at
01:41:03 ◼ ► nine o'clock on ABC. Because it's on Hulu. But you know, they don't get Hulu. If I get it, I mean,
01:41:12 ◼ ► they don't understand. We, Amy and I have gotten back into Press Your Luck, the new Press Your
01:41:17 ◼ ► Luck now hosted by Elizabeth Banks. Because I always, I loved the old Press Your Luck back in,
01:41:24 ◼ ► when it was on with Peter Tamarkin. It was one of my favorite daytime game shows. I just loved it.
01:41:32 ◼ ► So much fun. I don't know. It's just pure, I don't know how you pronounce the word, Shadenfreude,
01:41:42 ◼ ► Shadenfreude, it's just the delight in watching people have experienced bad luck and lose all
01:41:50 ◼ ► their money. It's a lot of fun. But they have the commercials for Holy Moly, you know, if you're
01:41:56 ◼ ► watching Press Your Luck, it's sort of like the old school ad recommendation engine, right? Like,
01:42:05 ◼ ► we don't need to track you or spy on you or anything. If you're watching Press Your Luck,
01:42:12 ◼ ► you're gonna like this. Oh, so I should mention, like, so the hallmark hole on Holy Moly is
01:42:21 ◼ ► Dutch courage, which is, so you know, you go to a mini golf, there's always a windmill hole,
01:42:25 ◼ ► right? And you got to putt through the windmill to get to the hole. So there's two windmills on this
01:42:30 ◼ ► hole. And there's a walkway through them, and you have to dodge the blades as you go through. And
01:42:44 ◼ ► they knock you into the water. See, I got it. And people, you know, most people do not make it
01:42:51 ◼ ► through. And so it's mostly just the delight of seeing people get, you know, clobbered by giant
01:42:56 ◼ ► windmill blades and thrown into the water. I've, as soon as we're done recording, I'm going right
01:43:01 ◼ ► upstairs and I'm setting the TiVo to record this. All right, I had to look it up. I know it's,
01:43:09 ◼ ► it's one of the ones that make me the most angry about the Academy Awards. 1981 Academy Awards.
01:43:14 ◼ ► Oh, really? I don't, I don't, I don't have to be more specific because I can't. I was alive.
01:43:22 ◼ ► But did not win for best picture, Raging Bull, which is perhaps, perhaps one of the finest
01:44:16 ◼ ► To ordinary people, this movie is riveting. It's gripping. It's a thrill ride, edge of your seat.
01:44:26 ◼ ► We did this to a friend in high school. We had a friend, my friend Todd, and I forget how it came
01:44:32 ◼ ► up, but we were listening to the radio one day and a Steely Dan song came on and me and my, I don't
01:44:38 ◼ ► know how me and my pal Ethan just kind of without plotting it, we latched onto it and we're just
01:44:44 ◼ ► singing the praises of Steely Dan. And he's like, "I never heard of them." And we're like, "Oh my
01:44:48 ◼ ► God, you never heard of Steely Dan. It's like, oh, they're the best." And then like a couple of weeks
01:44:54 ◼ ► later, we were in Todd's car. He had a, he had a, like the ugliest Ford Mustang Ford ever made.
01:45:07 ◼ ► And it was old. It was only like eight years old, which sounds cool for a high school kid to have
01:45:11 ◼ ► an eight-year-old Mustang, but it looked, it was just the worst. But anyway, he had an old Ford
01:45:15 ◼ ► Mustang and we were in it and he had his tape box and he had four Steely Dan tapes. And it turns out
01:45:24 ◼ ► he, on our recommendation, went out and bought four Steely Dan tapes. And he wasn't going to tell
01:45:32 ◼ ► us. And he goes, "You son of a bitches. I spent 40 bucks on those tapes." And it's awful. And I
01:45:45 ◼ ► swear to God, I've never laughed so hard. Because I had forgotten that we'd even done it, that we
01:45:53 ◼ ► I bet a lot of people will react the same way to Holy Moly. But I think it, because it is dumb.