The Talk Show

317: ‘The NOC List’, With Rene Ritchie


00:00:00   I'm in big trouble, Rene. Oh no, what happened? Well, it's what could happen. We're starting.

00:00:07   Usually. I don't know if I've ever even said this. 316 episodes of the show. I'm not sure

00:00:11   I've ever said exactly when we've recorded the show, but I'll give it a day. We're recording

00:00:16   on Wednesday, June 23rd at 5 54 p.m. Eastern time. I gotta record dithering after this.

00:00:26   Oh, okay. But the Milwaukee Bucks have a playoff game at 8 30. So I gotta get this in under two

00:00:33   hours or dithering is gonna suffer a divorce. It's all over. Does anybody care about Milwaukee?

00:00:40   Honestly? A guy named Ben Thompson. Oh, come on. I'm not even sure Milwaukee has a team. Maybe he

00:00:48   made it up. He's smart enough he could get away with it. I know. He should have done what I did

00:00:51   and root for the Sixers who lost anyway. And of course, the further complication is that this is

00:01:00   my first post WWDC show other than my actual WWDC show with Federighi and Jaws. But it's the first

00:01:09   one where, you know, it's a first normal episode. So we've got a lot to cover. We can say things you

00:01:14   can't say in front of them. Let's start though with today's white paper from Apple, which I'm

00:01:24   calling their anti side loading white paper, and the the regulatory environment in which

00:01:32   they've crafted it and dropped it. I just published my piece, annotating it, I describe it.

00:01:40   Curious what you think of it. Yeah, I'm really conflicted about this whole issue because on

00:01:46   one, and I feel like this is a big problem for our industry, because the people commenting on this

00:01:50   stuff are largely really traditional computer users who come from really traditional computer

00:01:55   backgrounds. And to them, to us, everything should just be a computer. That's the expected behavior.

00:02:01   Apple makes a new device. Of course, it should work in every way, like every other device Apple

00:02:06   has ever made, not counting the iPod, but it should work like a Mac should work like an Apple

00:02:10   too. And we've talked about this before, but it was clear at the inception that Steve Jobs meant

00:02:16   for it to be what would be called now a console like it was meant to be an app console. And for

00:02:23   a lot of people in the world that is way better than a computer. And I'm afraid I like my inherent

00:02:29   prejudice where I would say just Gatekeeper it and have it done with would be like going to some kid

00:02:35   and saying no, no, no, you don't want an Xbox. You want a PC. You're gonna have to deal with some

00:02:39   malware. You have to deal with some ransomware. It's fine, but you can game on a PC. What do you

00:02:44   need this idiot Xbox thing for? Or you should sideload on your Xbox. I feel like there's a

00:02:48   lot of lack of empathy for non-computer nerds in this whole discussion. I think so too. I think

00:02:54   it's been that case all along, but I think it's coming to a head. It's coming to fruition. And

00:02:59   then it is it's it's so multifaceted because that's that's sort of the user perspective, right? On the

00:03:07   one hand, there are the users who like as I put it in my piece, basically just want to know what

00:03:15   you know, just allow side loading as an off by default, you know, pretty much like Android. And

00:03:20   in a way sort of I guess that's a sort of like how the Mac defaults now too. I actually forget

00:03:24   exactly what a factory fresh Mac defaults to, but I think it defaults to App Store only. The Mac

00:03:31   makes it really easy. Well, as easy as I think it should be to go in to security settings and say

00:03:39   only allow, you know, uncheck the checkbox for only allow apps from the App Store and whether or not

00:03:45   you allow unsigned apps, etc. Android hides it a bit. And it seems to move around between versions

00:03:52   of Android. Android settings I find not not impenetrable, but like shifting sand there.

00:04:00   Why not just do that, ship it by default, and then all of the iOS users, you know, most of them will

00:04:08   never change their defaults. And so they'll be just as protected and limited by every, you know,

00:04:13   everything coming through the App Store as they are today. And those of us who would like to

00:04:17   install apps from other sources, for whatever reason, can choose to do so at our own risk,

00:04:25   you know, give me a checkbox, give me a warning after the checkbox, I'll okay it,

00:04:30   and then I'm on my own. It's my device, right? You put in your Konami code, and you do your business.

00:04:36   Right. I should probably add that to my I forgot that it's my device. But that it's true, right?

00:04:42   And I wrote that in my article, like, that's a good argument. It there's nothing or there's nothing wrong

00:04:47   with that argument. Except that it's incomplete. And it ignores to me, the downsides there, there

00:04:58   would be trade offs. You know, the Mac is an expert first computer that it tries to be as safe and

00:05:10   friendly and approachable as possible to non expert users. And there are 10s of millions of totally

00:05:18   non experts who use a Mac. My dad, yeah, 83 year old, he much prefers his there. But for him and

00:05:27   his my mom's iMac to using an iPad or something like he just likes it. He likes having a keyboard.

00:05:33   He likes the bigger screen. You know, and you know, he's got it set up and it works. It works

00:05:39   for that. And, but he, you know, he also knows, you know, there are always times in just over the last

00:05:44   10 years, there were a lot of times where I'd get like a phone call and they'd be like, ah,

00:05:47   something's popped up says I need an Adobe Flash Player update, right? It was off. And it's like,

00:05:52   now to say no, I don't know where you got that. Say no, no, no, you don't. You don't need that.

00:05:57   There's all sorts of things you can do on a Mac and that typical users get into trouble with

00:06:02   non savvy, non technically savvy users get in trouble with. And the iPhone is an iOS writ large

00:06:10   and its family of of OSes that are really just derivatives of iOS, like iPad OS and watch OS and

00:06:18   tvOS are non savvy user first, you know, let's let's even though this is a full Unix computer

00:06:30   with again, even like on the watch a pretty powerful chip.

00:06:33   But let's design it as though these are consumer electronics like the iPod was,

00:06:39   where you cannot mess it up by doing anything. And it in 14 years of experience now, this isn't

00:06:47   like a hypothetical anymore. You know, the hypothetical as presented when Steve Jobs

00:06:52   unveiled the iPhone SDK in 2007 and said it would have these limits have been proven to be right.

00:06:59   Users have thrived, the devices are the the most free of malware by any definition, right? Like

00:07:08   not just viruses, or apps that try to ransomware you or something like that, but just something you

00:07:15   just don't want period, right? Like, like that whole thing from a few months ago, about from

00:07:21   Lauren Brikter about Chrome is bad. That was yes, that there's some kind of mysterious keystone

00:07:26   right updater, right? It's, it's not malware in the sense that the Google Chrome engineers who

00:07:34   most or at least many of whom surely are Mac users themselves, right? Like Chrome is probably

00:07:40   in large part developed on Macs by Mac users at Google. They've got the best intentions. But they

00:07:47   have made a decision that because they they think they know better than the user Chrome updates by

00:07:55   itself invisibly in the background, and you don't really have an option to turn that off,

00:07:59   at least not one that I know of. And if there is, it is, you know, like a secret setting or

00:08:04   something like that. And it installs some kind of background agent in, you know, your home folder,

00:08:11   library, something something folder, and it runs every once in a while and checks if there's a new

00:08:16   version of Chrome, even if Chrome isn't running, and it doesn't pop up a dialog that says you want

00:08:20   to upload the new version of Chrome, it just uploads it. And their argument, which is not unreasonable,

00:08:25   is this way users are always up to date with the latest Chrome, which could have security and

00:08:32   performance improvements. And they don't have to do anything. Okay. But then the downside is that

00:08:38   effectively, when you install Chrome on your Mac, you're no longer really running Mac OS, you're

00:08:43   running Mac OS with this little tiny thing that's now part of the system from Google.

00:08:49   Yeah. And apparently it could cause problems. That's not possible. And again, that's a well-intentioned

00:08:55   developer making an extraordinarily popular Mac app. It's just not possible on iOS. And you can't

00:09:01   overstate how important that is to users. And again, in 14 years of experience, we've seen

00:09:07   users who were truly, I know this firsthand from my friends talking about their parents and

00:09:14   relatives, and I say this because my friends are actually all nerds and know how to do stuff,

00:09:20   extended family members with Windows who had Windows computers in the past,

00:09:24   they all typical Windows users eventually became afraid to install anything because installing

00:09:33   stuff under Windows machine eventually, you know, cause problems and you'd have to wipe it or really,

00:09:39   that's why most people, regular consumers, I know why they chose to buy a new computer is that their

00:09:44   old one just was like broke from, from even like just adware, like not even mounted where they get

00:09:49   like 19 different bars on their browsers and cookie redirected to whatever affiliate links and

00:09:54   browser hijacked. And there's just so many things that I would classify as annoyances, but when you

00:09:58   have 18 flies buzzing around your head, it's as bad as having, you know, like one, one piece of

00:10:04   malware, it just becomes so unpleasant. You don't want to do things. And that's been the repeated

00:10:10   experience with me and non tech savvy people. And I don't mean dumb. I think a lot of people say,

00:10:14   like, when we talk about non tech savvy people, we're talking down to them, we're thinking that

00:10:17   they're stupid and they're not, they can be geniuses who just don't happen to give a crap

00:10:22   about all the technical things that we do. They just use it as a tool. Like they're doing science

00:10:27   or medicine or law, and they need a tool that works and they don't have the time, the inclination

00:10:32   or the patience to deal with all this stuff that we do on a regular daily basis. And it feels like

00:10:39   in our desire to like, we have Unix, we have windows, we have Android, we have Mac OS,

00:10:45   they really only have iOS and Chrome OS. And it feels like just because we think it's sexy

00:10:50   hardware, we want to take it away from them and say, no, this is going to be our nerd box too.

00:10:55   And that just feels so inconsiderate sometimes. Right. I mean, I guess what I'm trying to say is

00:10:59   that the Mac and other, you know, PC type platforms like windows, Mac and windows and stuff

00:11:04   like that are expert first, typical user second, and iOS is typical user first, expert second.

00:11:12   And Apple is, and we'll get to this, they are expanding the power user type features on iOS

00:11:18   in truly wonderfully encouraging ways and at a pace that now seems like this is great. Like

00:11:27   shortcuts are a lot better in the new iOS 15 that's coming out than they were last year. And

00:11:32   last year's was a big improvement over the year before they got so much faster, and they can do

00:11:36   so much more. And, you know, hobbyist level users can build really interesting things with

00:11:45   shortcuts. And they can do things like starting last year, that whole trend, where non-technical

00:11:53   users on their iPhones and iPads, but especially iPhones, let's face it, were replacing their,

00:11:59   putting all their apps in the app library and then setting up shortcuts for each of the apps.

00:12:04   And then you can assign a custom icon to the shortcut and all it does is open the app. And

00:12:09   then all of a sudden you could give whatever app you want. You could have like a custom suite of

00:12:14   black and white icons for all of the apps that you use on your first screen. And, you know,

00:12:18   you've always been able to customize, well, not always, I guess, starting like iOS 4,

00:12:23   you could customize your wallpaper. I love that because it's exactly what got me into Mac

00:12:30   enthusiasm when I first got a Mac back, way back in, you know, like 1947 or whenever it was, when I

00:12:37   was a young, young man in college. But like, dicking around in ResEdit with tweaking the icons

00:12:44   or pasting new icons on apps or folder icons, remember that? That was, I loved that.

00:12:50   Yes. Yeah. Same. Like my BB edit folder where the BB edit app was and all of its support files

00:12:57   was a folder icon with a little BB edit badge in the corner, not a regular folder icon. I loved

00:13:02   doing stuff like that. It's in it, you know, it's a great way to get into it, but still it's typical

00:13:10   user first, safety first, expert second. It's a flip-flop of the priorities of which users are the

00:13:17   most catered to and which one comes second. And some people just don't see that as a reasonable

00:13:23   choice. And even that is like far more than Steve Jobs or Scott Forestall ever intended. Like,

00:13:29   I think there's a mentality for some people at Apple that iOS 6 was the pinnacle of anything

00:13:34   that any normal user would ever need. And there was a lot of pressure not to do airdrop and not

00:13:39   to do any of the things that we take for granted as basic utility features now. And it's only

00:13:44   because Craig is nerdier and Apple has gotten more expansive with the iPhone and the iPad

00:13:48   that we're getting these features. But I agree with you, something like, you know, some sort of

00:13:54   theme kit to me is like a much higher priority in terms of what an average, and I don't use average

00:13:59   disparagingly at all, but what the vast majority of users would want than a lot of the things that

00:14:04   we're arguing about as minority opinions that we just consider to be majority because we have them.

00:14:39   up, I think starting today and were announced last week. It's there's fundamentally at the highest

00:14:46   level, I disagree with most, almost all of the things that they're trying to do. Even more

00:14:54   importantly, it's clear in the ones that I disagree with the most that that the legislators don't

00:15:01   understand this at all.

00:15:02   Or they don't have the same, their priorities are not aligned with those of us who want to see some

00:15:10   recognizable form of these systems remain intact.

00:15:14   Yeah, and like, Representative Jayapal, who's from Washington State, who I really liked last year,

00:15:23   one of the curious things about this is that her questioning in last summer's

00:15:31   hearing with Tim Cook, Jeff Bezos, Zuckerberg, and I think Jack was the fourth? Yeah, I think

00:15:40   Jack, he's just Jack from Twitter. They offered very little, very few questions to Tim Cook,

00:15:51   and Tim Cook had a sort of "why am I here" demeanor in some way, not disrespectful,

00:15:59   but there was also in the run-up to the conference, there was reports that Tim Cook and Apple

00:16:06   sort of responded to the "we'd like you, before we force you to, we'd like you to come,"

00:16:11   a sort of "why are you bothering with us? We're not doing anything that's a violation of antitrust

00:16:17   laws." And the hearing came and went, and it was after it was over, and that was one that I watched

00:16:22   the whole thing. There was sort of a "why did they make Tim Cook do this?" They hardly asked him

00:16:27   anything. And Jayapal's questions to Amazon in particular were, I thought, really, really good.

00:16:34   And the bill that she's sponsoring is very much just going after Apple, and kind of curiously,

00:16:42   I think the company the second most—because her bill is pretty much trying to say that the first

00:16:50   party platform maker shouldn't be allowed—it should be legally prevented from advantaging itself

00:16:57   in any way over third-party developers. And that's just not how platforms work.

00:17:02   I mean, is it possible that the first-party platform maker can do something

00:17:07   illegal, goes too far, and should be regulated by the government compared to, you know,

00:17:13   yes, it's undeniable there's got to be limits? But the idea that it should be on equal footing

00:17:21   is a complete lack of understanding of what it means to be the first party, right? That's why

00:17:27   we call them the first party. They come first. Nintendo can't make Mario. It's the world we

00:17:31   want to live in. Can't have Halo on an Xbox. I don't want to live in this world.

00:17:36   Well, you get to—you know, here's like a little example, a little example, but it's just one. And

00:17:41   just to call out a new feature announced at WWDC, but the iPad, iPadOS now has a feature called

00:17:46   Quick Note, where you can use your pencil or your finger to slide out from the lower right corner

00:17:53   and instantly make a new Quick Note. We're calling it in Apple Notes. And it integrates with Safari

00:18:02   and I think a few other apps, but like Safari in particular, if you're on a web page,

00:18:08   you start a new Quick Note. It'll draw the URL from the current Safari page, pre-fill it in the

00:18:15   note, and if you annotate or quote like a certain section of the web page, when you go back to that

00:18:23   Quick Note, it'll note when it goes to the web page to go to that part of the page that you made

00:18:28   a note about. Cool feature. That would be illegal under Jai Appel's bill because it's not offered to

00:18:37   third-party note apps. That to me is ridiculous. I mean, that's what it means to be the first party.

00:18:45   You get the advantage. That whole thing was so interesting to me, and I watched it as well,

00:18:53   because it started off—and I'm blanking, you just said his name, but I'm blanking on the chairman's

00:18:57   of that committee's name. Cicillone. Yes, Cicillone. He started off by saying, like,

00:19:02   "Do these big companies need to be broken apart? We're going to take evidence." And then nobody's

00:19:07   mentioned that at all for the entire length of the conference. The Republicans mostly focused on

00:19:12   conservative voices being suppressed as sort of theater, and you knew that because whenever they

00:19:16   broke character, they became these really efficient litigators who really asked good questions and

00:19:21   then went right back to their theater about conservative voices. And Democrats, who largely

00:19:25   talked about the behavior of the companies towards their competitors and their partners—and again,

00:19:31   you could see that was a lot of theater because, like you mentioned, when they got serious about

00:19:35   it, they became the real lawyers that they are. Everyone just seemed to break character and

00:19:39   occasionally be competent, but then go right back to their set theatrical patterns, which I found

00:19:43   astounding. And then at the end, he just said, "Okay, thank you for everything. It is clear to

00:19:47   me now these companies need to be broken up. Bang, gavel, we're done." And it just made such—it was

00:19:52   such a cognitive dissonance about the entire proceeding, and it seems to manifest itself now

00:19:57   in these bills. I do think, though, that—and this is hopefully comes across in my article—is that

00:20:06   in some ways, I feel like the bills are very misguided, but I also feel that a lot of this

00:20:12   is Apple's own fault. And it is—is it arrogance? Is it—I don't know. But there was a sense back

00:20:24   with the e-book case, which I think was around 2013, that Apple had the attitude that I still

00:20:31   agree with, that how is this happening that we're the ones facing antitrust

00:20:37   lawsuit over our e-books when Amazon owns over 80%, maybe 90% of the e-book market?

00:20:49   Like, you know, you can get into questions over what constitutes a monopoly, you know,

00:20:54   when you're talking like 50%, is it 45%, is it 55%? But like, Kindle is clearly an e-book

00:21:01   monopoly. They have a—not just a majority share, but an overwhelming majority share.

00:21:07   So how in the world was Apple facing—

00:21:08   Gave it to them through this lawsuit.

00:21:09   And I think Apple headed into that case thinking, "Well, we're not—I don't know why we're even

00:21:14   going to court, but we pay all these lawyers, and that's why we have them. We'll be okay."

00:21:21   And, son of a bitch, they lost, and they got stuck with like a government regulator

00:21:25   sniffing up, you know, sniffing up their butts for a year.

00:21:30   Yeah, with a Chrisley.

00:21:30   And, you know, here we are 20 years later, or 10 years later, and

00:21:35   Kindle's share of the market is probably larger than it was then.

00:21:41   And it was weird, like in broad strokes, one of the things that the U.S. tends to look at

00:21:45   differently than the EU, like the EU seems to be all about competition, and the U.S. seems to be

00:21:48   mostly about, you know, lowest price for consumers. And Amazon was providing lower prices by dumping,

00:21:54   like by using it as a loss leader by dumping it, which is not healthy and not good for competition.

00:21:59   But Apple working with others, I guess, was seen as a form of collusion.

00:22:02   But they didn't look at the results that they wanted. And I find like both the DOJ and the EU

00:22:06   make this mistake, and the EU famously with browser ballots, their goal was to stop Internet

00:22:11   Explorer from taking over and to preserve these small market browsers like Fenris and, I forget,

00:22:17   Sleipnir, things like that. But what they ended up doing was destroying IE and allowing,

00:22:23   essentially, Chrome to become the dominant browser. But worse than that, they destroyed

00:22:27   like every other rendering engine we had. Opera went to Chromium, IE went to Chromium.

00:22:32   They handed Google an effective, much larger monopoly over web browsing or much larger power

00:22:38   over web browsing than IE ever had because their focus was on what they thought was a problem and

00:22:44   not the solution that actually needed to be handled or what consumers needed as a solution.

00:22:49   >> I would argue that the EU decision where, you know, on first boot, Windows machines in the EU

00:22:57   had to maybe still have to offer you a choice of default browser.

00:23:01   >> A browser ballot, yeah. >> I would argue that it was a bad law,

00:23:07   and it's a bad experience for the user, and it's a pain in the ass that Microsoft didn't deserve.

00:23:12   But I would argue that that's not the reason IE dropped from relevance. I think IE eventually

00:23:19   got beaten fair and square by Firefox as a superior. Firefox built a browser for Windows,

00:23:26   or Mozilla built Firefox for Windows, and it was so much better that users switched on their own,

00:23:33   and companies had their employees switch on their own because they deemed it technically superior.

00:23:40   And Chrome eventually beat Firefox and now dominates, certainly dominates Windows,

00:23:46   and is the single most popular browser and browser engine in the world on merit.

00:23:54   That's the thing that I think the legislatures don't get, is that how fast tech works and how,

00:24:01   you know, Windows still has probably about the same market share. I mean, I know Macs are selling

00:24:06   better than ever, but the overall market share of PCs, if you define PCs as things running Windows,

00:24:14   Mac, and Linux, is as strong as it ever was. But nobody talks of Microsoft in the terms that they

00:24:21   did circa 1996, '97, because the world shifted, right? Competition really works. I'm not trying

00:24:31   to be a capitalism fundamentalist here, but it really does work, and tech moves so fast,

00:24:38   technology moves so fast, that it's the one industry, I think the first industry ever,

00:24:48   where you see it happen not just once in your lifetime, but several times in your lifetime,

00:24:54   right? I'm only 48 years old, and it's happened several times, that the general gist of who is

00:25:02   on top—I mean, most of the companies who are now on top, the ones who are in the New York Times is

00:25:09   big tech cabal. Facebook didn't exist, Google didn't exist when I was in college, and I'm only

00:25:17   48 years old, they didn't even exist. Mark Zuckerberg was probably like three years old.

00:25:22   It changes fast. And—

00:25:27   Yes, absolutely.

00:25:28   You know, IBM, is IBM a terror of the industry, a menace that everybody has to deal with? No,

00:25:33   when's the last time you really even thought about IBM? You know, it can happen fast. I mean,

00:25:40   in 1995, I think, Sun Microsystems was on the cusp of just purchasing Apple. And, oh, it was,

00:25:51   as a Mac user at the time, it was like, "Oh, I hope that doesn't happen, because that's

00:25:53   going to be bad." Sun Microsystems doesn't exist, right?

00:25:58   Yahoo was going to try to buy Google when it was the last time you heard of Yahoo.

00:26:02   Right. This stuff moves fast. Does that mean that no regulation ever should happen? Of course not.

00:26:10   But I think it needs to be surgical. And I just can't believe that after the Microsoft

00:26:17   thing 20 or 25 years ago, that they haven't learned that lesson. But the other point I

00:26:23   want to make— It also seems like—

00:26:24   Well, go ahead.

00:26:25   No, it's also the same. It also seems like these days, they choose a company as a target and then

00:26:29   want to specifically try to, like, whether it's bans on TikTok or bans on app bundling with Apple,

00:26:36   they choose a company as a target and try to write legislation to the solution that they

00:26:40   believe is necessary instead of just making laws that you can't violate. And if any of

00:26:45   these companies violate them, then action is taken. And that always seems problematic,

00:26:49   because you're making large assumptions about a single entity that probably doesn't

00:26:53   represent the way the consumers interact with them at all.

00:26:55   Yeah, and I think that they misunderstand consumers, period. Right? So, sure, Spotify

00:27:06   and Tile and Facebook have issues with Apple's app tracking transparency. So, there are smaller

00:27:13   companies like Spotify and Tile who are complaining about having to go against Apple Music and

00:27:19   AirTags and the whole Find My network being— You know, what Tile wants is to be able to

00:27:25   integrate the OS like Find My does, and so that Tile users can have their iPhones be

00:27:32   beacons that listen for tiles and stuff like that, which would be possible on the Mac,

00:27:37   right? They could install some sort of system extension that keeps it running in the background

00:27:42   and listens as a background agent and does stuff like that. Could there be a phone, you know? And

00:27:50   I guess one of the frustrations the power user type users have is that there is no phone that

00:27:56   really gives them— There's certainly no Apple phone that gives them that level of, "Yes, I trust

00:28:04   myself to only install stuff, but I want to install stuff that runs in the background all the time."

00:28:10   Right? So, like, I know the iPad is not a direct competitor to the Mac, but it sort of is, you know,

00:28:16   if you consider that most Macs are MacBooks, the iPad is sort of an alternative to a MacBook,

00:28:22   and Apple offers both. If you want only the iPad safety rails, you could just use iPad,

00:28:28   or if you want a Mac, you can have a Mac. It does kind of suck—

00:28:31   And that's intentional. That's very deliberate on their side, like that Steve wanted to make—

00:28:35   He was relentless about wanting to make computers that were more and more mainstream.

00:28:39   Right. It sucks that there's no Mac phone in addition to the iPhone.

00:28:43   I understand why there's not. I mean, I don't think it would be a good business decision.

00:28:49   But in theory, in a hypothetical world where Apple made both iPhones and Mac phones,

00:28:54   and the Mac phones had all the capabilities, like sort of you, the user, can just install whatever

00:29:01   you want, and it can be installed not just as an app in a sandbox, you can install non-sandboxed

00:29:06   apps that, you know, have crazy wild permissions, because you could do cool things, right?

00:29:11   No doubt about it. There are totally cool ideas that you cannot develop— No developer can offer

00:29:18   for iOS because they're not at Apple. Only Apple can do system-level stuff. That sucks.

00:29:24   And just to your point earlier about Tile, like, Tile— one of the things that's interesting to

00:29:28   me is that we know a bunch of developers who don't put up with Apple, you know,

00:29:31   sure-locking them. They go right out in Moriarty Apple. Like, they make Fantastical and Pcalc and

00:29:37   Halide and all these apps that are just way better than Apple's apps. And I'm not saying that to be

00:29:41   condescending or to dismiss, you know, the platform advantage Apple has, but you can see a world where

00:29:46   Tile says, "Okay, we're using the Find My API that Apple provides on iPhone, and we're doing something

00:29:51   Apple can't. We're using our own network on Android or Google's network on Android so that

00:29:55   if you have a cross-device family, you can buy a tile and use it with everything. You don't have to

00:29:59   worry about being stuck in Apple's ecosystem." And you could look at, like, Clubhouse saying,

00:30:04   you know, "We made this wonderful app, and now Spotify has green room, and they have this huge

00:30:08   platform advantage, and they're using it to suppress us." So I honestly don't see a difference

00:30:11   between Spotify and Apple. One's just a billion-dollar tyrant, you know, there's a

00:30:14   trillion-dollar tyrant, and it makes all of these debates seem much more self-serving to me than I

00:30:19   think the companies actually realize. And the other thing, I just think that the legislation

00:30:26   totally gets the consumer perspective wrong. And I know, I forget his name, the Apple guy who they

00:30:33   sent instead of Tim Cook in the run-up to the lawsuit. But remember there was a guy, I'm not

00:30:41   gonna, I'm sorry, I hope he doesn't listen to the show. But they sent him, and I don't think he did

00:30:49   very well in front of the Senate committee he was testifying, and I think that's partly where some

00:30:55   of this is coming from now. But one of the things that he'd said, repeated, that I do think was true

00:31:02   was that what the implication of the questions of "Why are you doing this? This is bad," is that

00:31:09   you're describing features that our customers love. This is what they love about the iPhone.

00:31:13   They love that they cannot mess it up. They love that they can't install anything that runs the

00:31:18   battery down in the background without their knowledge. They love that the private, they love

00:31:23   the new privacy controls that are in their hands and not developer hands. And I think that they

00:31:34   misunderstand that, I really do. I really think it's true that the iPhone has succeeded not

00:31:39   despite its restrictions on software distribution, but largely because of them.

00:31:45   And, you know, Kyle and Dear, was that the one? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay, good. Now you can listen

00:31:53   to the show again. I, it's it and I feel like that argument fell on deaf ears, even though

00:32:02   the Occam's razor argument is that, yes, it has made it wildly popular. And the iPhone didn't drop

00:32:13   into the world and 100 million people bought it. It was like, "We'd like to sell 10 million in the

00:32:20   first, by the end of the next year," or something like that. If we get 1%, we'll be happy. Right.

00:32:24   We'll get in a world where it was unlike all other phones and it looked different. And even for users

00:32:32   who really wanted to use their phone for email and messaging, it was the whole thing about the

00:32:37   keyboard. Like, this is ridiculous. Nobody, you know, Steve Ballmer laughing that doesn't even

00:32:41   have a keyboard and it costs 600 bucks. And anybody who's serious about doing messaging

00:32:46   on their phone wants a keyboard because, of course, you know, that's what succeeded in the

00:32:51   past, the BlackBerry. And again, look at it. Where's BlackBerry now? Right? It changes.

00:33:00   Yeah. All right. I mean, for a lot of people, like, I think that's the problem is that

00:33:04   we look at it, like traditional computer people look at that, look at those things as bugs,

00:33:08   where millions of mainstream users see those as features.

00:33:11   Absolutely. They really do. And I know, I know, "anecdata is not data," but I have so much

00:33:20   "anecdata" from people. Like, I remember I have a friend who I worked with at Barebone Software

00:33:27   20 years ago, and I ran into him at WWDC. It was probably around 2012, 2013 or so.

00:33:35   And he was telling me about his father-in-law. And he said, "His father-in-law," I forget what

00:33:41   he did. Maybe he was an accountant or something like that. But he said, "He's Cracker Jack smart.

00:33:46   He's super smart. Always a Windows user and always had just one of those Windows users who had a bad,

00:33:54   you know, bad perception of Apple. Just thought Apple wasn't for him. It was for other type of

00:33:57   people. But never really was a Windows user. You know, he used Windows computers, but,

00:34:05   you know, never installed additional software. He thought, you know, the only way—this is how I

00:34:10   keep my computer going—is I just, you know, use the software that comes on it, install the least

00:34:16   possible software. Like, here's the accounting package I use, you know, to run my accounting

00:34:20   business." And that's it. Retired, got an iPad. And he said, "You cannot believe what he's doing

00:34:28   on it. He's making movies, editing at this large digital photo library. He's become like a

00:34:34   computing enthusiast and installs all sorts of third-party apps, loves the App Store,

00:34:40   because he realizes and can feel. Yeah, you have like—it's not like, "Oh, Apple says it's safe."

00:34:49   It's like you have this perception in the iPad/iPhone experience. You can feel it's safe.

00:34:54   Yeah. You know it's safe. You've experienced that it's safe. It's like that you can be a nerd and

00:35:00   roll your eyes at that and say, "Nope, they're just suckers for the marketing," or whatever.

00:35:04   But it's true. There's something ineffable about the design that lets you feel that this is safe

00:35:10   and that there's nothing going on mysterious in the background, and that when you delete an app

00:35:15   in jiggle mode, the app and all of its traces are gone. That's it. You didn't like this game?

00:35:21   You delete it, it's gone. And there's nothing in the background that's going to pop up in a month

00:35:25   and say, "Hey, do you want to re-download me? I'm still available in the App Store." It won't happen.

00:35:33   It's so true. I have several direct and extended family members who are doctorate-level education,

00:35:41   and they just always felt stupid using a computer. It didn't make sense to them. It was too finicky,

00:35:45   and they were always nervous. They always felt intimidated, made them feel stupid. And

00:35:49   they just—the iPad is the first computer that didn't do that, and they love it.

00:35:53   My mom has an iMac. Other people in my family have MacBooks. They don't use them. They use iPads now

00:35:59   because that, to them, is the first computer that makes sense. Right. And it's just—and

00:36:05   I thought Apple's white paper raised a very key point about that argument to go back a few minutes

00:36:12   about, "Well, look, if you don't want to sideload, just never turn it on." But if that's there,

00:36:18   it's probably true that most users wouldn't. But some users would. And they might—some

00:36:26   users who don't really know what they're getting into or don't want to get into it might have to,

00:36:30   like if you're using your own iPad at school, and the school says, "We want you to install

00:36:35   this proctoring software," but the proctoring software is not in the App Store because it's

00:36:41   doing stuff that the App Store doesn't allow, surveillance-wise. What do you do if you're

00:36:48   a student? What do you do if you're taking the SAT or the LSAT or something like that on your iPad,

00:36:54   and you can either do it and install it and turn on sideloading, or you don't get to take the test?

00:37:01   Who's going to say no to that? What if you're in— Tim Epic says you need to get Fortnite

00:37:06   by sideloading, and then you're trying to find out which version of Fortnite is safe because

00:37:10   a bunch of malware people have that, which is exactly what happened on Android when they did

00:37:13   that. A bunch of malware versions have also been put out there. Yeah, Apple cited a bunch of cases

00:37:18   in the footnotes. I didn't get into that in my article, but their footnotes are actually pretty

00:37:21   fascinating. There's a lot of cases that would have been good, daring, Fireball Father, to be honest,

00:37:28   that I had not heard of, of fake games and stuff like that, or pirated versions of games.

00:37:34   I guess the more common scam, though, is just the fake version of the game. You tell somebody that

00:37:40   it's Candy Crush and you can install it for free over here, and you get it and it's not Candy

00:37:45   Crush, it's something else. Or if you install these five apps, we'll give you money towards

00:37:49   this. They do that now, even with non-fake apps, they try to use Android. The whole thing is just...

00:37:53   Yeah, the other one that was eye-opening to me was the ransomware angle, which again is not just

00:37:59   presented by Apple as a hypothetical, but is footnoted with actual examples, where there are

00:38:03   Android apps that you could install by a sideloading and would offer things like photo

00:38:09   filters or something like that. Something that the purpose of the app—because Android has the

00:38:14   similar things as iOS, where you have to give the app permission to access your photos, and you say,

00:38:19   "Well, yeah, that's why I got the app, so it can access my photos," and as soon as it has access to

00:38:23   your photos, the app says, "You need to pay $10 through a credit card right now, or I'm going to

00:38:32   delete all the photos from your phone." And you've already given it the permission to have access to

00:38:37   your photos. People can say that's your fault or your choice or you're dumbing it down, but right

00:38:43   now people have the choice to get a platform that makes it really, really difficult to do all those

00:38:48   things, where their level of fear, of stress, of anxiety is very low because the platform itself

00:38:53   protects them against that. But you can also choose a different platform. Like right now,

00:38:57   you have the choice between iOS and Android, and on some level, this is taking away that choice.

00:39:02   It's whether you believe the choice should be on the platform level, like you should have a choice

00:39:05   on every platform to do it, or whether it's okay to have one platform that allows it and one that

00:39:10   doesn't, and you get to choose between those things the way you get to choose between an Xbox and a

00:39:15   gaming PC, for example. They don't have to be the same. Very true. Before I take a sponsor break,

00:39:22   let me just take this break to do a total footnote. And I'm bringing up my friend Steve, who told me

00:39:27   that story about his father-in-law at WWDC 2012 or 13. I remember that while we were talking,

00:39:34   I was like, "Where are you going?" And he told me he was going to a security session, and I was like,

00:39:38   "I'll go. That sounds interesting." And I went, and it was a session on security. And back then,

00:39:44   I think Apple's largely gotten away with the Q&As, but they were still doing post-session Q&As.

00:39:48   And it was a session about security, and in the Q&A, where I was like, you know,

00:39:55   it's at that point where it's like, once a Q&A starts, you start putting your stuff back in

00:39:58   your backpack, and you're like, "I think I'm done." You know, the Q&As were never that good.

00:40:03   But this one stuck with me ever since. The question was somebody who asked,

00:40:08   passwords are terrible for most users. They use the same ones over and over. They forget the ones

00:40:18   they have if they are secure. And they're open to scamming in a bunch of ways, where you can

00:40:26   prompt for a password and the user can put their password in, but it's not—you're giving it to an

00:40:32   adversary, and now they've got the password to your account. Are you—is Apple looking at anything

00:40:37   that would replace passwords? And the guy at the microphone paused and stared down

00:40:47   for a very long beat. And then he looked up and he said, "Yes." And that was it. That was the

00:40:59   whole answer. And it was so—and Steve and I looked at it, we're like, "Oh, that's interesting,"

00:41:07   because he was even wondering if he should say yes. He was definitely not thinking,

00:41:14   "Should I say more?" He was thinking, "Should I even say yes, or should I just give the—we don't

00:41:20   really, you know, we don't talk about future product plans." And look at where we are now,

00:41:26   you know, with so many features. Because that's the other thing he might have been thinking about.

00:41:31   He might have been thinking about how many "Let's move beyond entering a password manually" features

00:41:39   Apple had, how many of those calls were in the fire already at the time that we've now seen.

00:41:44   It's one of my—

00:41:45   Yeah, we have a whole team working on it now. It's amazing.

00:41:47   All right, let me take a break here and thank our first sponsor, it's our good friends at LinkedIn.

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00:42:57   All right, the flip side of this before we move on to WWDC stuff is, to me, the conflict of interest

00:43:06   and that has gotten Apple into this whole truly—it's a serious fiasco. I don't think

00:43:13   that Jai Pal's bill is going to pass. I really don't. I honestly wonder—she's clearly so smart.

00:43:19   I honestly wonder if she's not playing the heel in some way by putting this bill out there as a stake

00:43:25   in the ground. That's Ben Thompson's argument that it's sort of an anchoring strategy. And then it

00:43:29   makes the less drastic bills seem like a compromise, whereas if the less drastic bills

00:43:39   were the only bills, they would seem drastic. But Apple has gotten into this situation,

00:43:47   I think almost entirely, by pursuing a maximization strategy on App Store revenue from third-party

00:43:56   developers. And maybe maximizing is a bit of an overstatement because it's not like they've—I

00:44:04   mean, they emphasize this too. They emphasize that the rates for developers have only ever come down

00:44:10   from 30% in terms of offering the 15% for the second and subsequent years of a subscription

00:44:18   and the new small business program for developers with under a million dollars in revenue who can

00:44:23   get 15% across the board. They've only ever come down. But there's also a counterargument that

00:44:29   raising the rates to 40% or 50/50 might blow up in their face. It's the total calculus of tax rates.

00:44:43   You can't just tax everybody 99% and have your government sit on all the money because if you

00:44:48   tax people at 99%, they're not going to work. There's a sweet spot in there. But it's true,

00:44:54   though, that—I think it's undeniably true and to me, best exemplified by these rules against

00:45:02   allowing apps to send users to the web to sign up. So, okay, Netflix, though long in the App Store

00:45:11   and forever will have tens of—probably tens of millions of users who are paying for Netflix

00:45:18   through their app, the App Store, because it used to be available, but they've pulled it several

00:45:22   years ago because they got sick of the 85/15 split they had with Apple. So now, if you're somebody

00:45:29   who never signed up for Netflix or you had it and you canceled and you get the app from iOS or TVOS

00:45:39   or iPadOS, there's no way to sign up in the app. It doesn't tell you what to do because they're not

00:45:46   allowed to. They're not allowed to say, "Go to Netflix.com to sign up to create your Netflix

00:45:51   account." They're not allowed to even say that. And Apple going after companies like this story

00:45:58   last week or two with a small company called FanHouse, which is actually a really cool name

00:46:05   for what they're doing. It's sort of basically only fans but PG-rated, maybe R-rated, I don't

00:46:13   know, but definitely not X-rated. But they were doing a thing where—so, you know, I presume people

00:46:23   have heard of only fans, but basically it's a thing where you could pay to subscribe to a creator

00:46:28   or whatever—what would you call it? Some of these things.

00:46:43   Only fans didn't start that way either. It was a bunch of—the big stars on only fans were soccer players in Europe.

00:46:55   Let's say you're a famous soccer star and you could set up a page and people could pay. It's sort of

00:47:01   along the lines of Cameo, too, where you can just pay and you could get DMs with your favorite

00:47:09   soccer player or basketball player or something like that, or whatever kind of micro-celebrity

00:47:14   you might be. And they were sending—they did have a subscribe button in their iOS app, and then you'd

00:47:25   hit the button and it would, I believe, jump you over to Safari, or maybe it was presenting a web

00:47:32   view in the app, and then they would take your credit card information in the app or maybe over

00:47:37   in Safari. But either way, there was a button. And Apple said to them, "You have three months

00:47:42   to implement true in-app purchases for this." But the numbers don't work out for their market.

00:47:50   They only take 10%. So let's say it costs 10 bucks to get a FaceTime chat with somebody.

00:47:59   They only charge 10%. Nine dollars goes to the user, the creator. Ten dollars went to FanHouse.

00:48:08   So where's the 30% come from? So their only option to comply would be to give Apple the

00:48:14   30% off the top, and you run into this situation where the numbers that Apple would be getting

00:48:22   compared to the creator leaving FanHouse or Cameo or whoever else is doing similar things with these

00:48:29   creator apps, which is a huge thing. It's like the category of 2021. It just seems disproportionate.

00:48:36   Yeah, same thing with the Twitter's new service, that they put out the numbers that Apple is getting

00:48:40   compared to them, and it's ridiculous. And all they want to do, you know, and the Hey app from

00:48:47   last summer best exemplifies it, because the Hey thing wasn't about them taking credit cards in

00:48:53   their app. The whole time, they didn't even have a button or a URL that said, "Go to hey.com and sign

00:49:00   up there." All they had was an app, and they assumed that they would get enough users on their

00:49:06   own to sign up on the web first and then get the app. They weren't even worried about the app being

00:49:12   the source of discovery. The app would be something users would get because they're already fans of

00:49:17   Basecamp or they heard of Hey and its features otherwise, and they're confident in their own

00:49:23   ability to get signups. They just wanted to have an app in the App Store that was based on the idea

00:49:30   that it only worked if you already had an account from the web at hey.com. And Apple's response was,

00:49:36   "You need to implement in-app purchasing so that users can sign up in the app." That's exactly the

00:49:42   mentality. That's what I'm calling maximalization of App Store revenue and revenue growth from

00:49:50   third-party developers. If they weren't doing that, I don't think they'd be in this hot water.

00:49:58   There'd still be—there's always malcontents, and Tile would still be upset about not being able to

00:50:03   have system-level software like Find My, and Spotify would still be upset about whatever

00:50:08   they had to pay versus Apple Music. And Epic would want their own store. That would all continue.

00:50:13   Right, but I don't think it would have the traction that it does.

00:50:18   So what I don't understand is—I understand the historical context for a lot of this,

00:50:23   because originally when they had in-app purchases, apps couldn't be free. If you were free, you had

00:50:29   to stay free. You couldn't use in-app purchase. Only paid apps could. And then they changed that,

00:50:34   and they said that free apps could use in-app purchases, but you couldn't make external payments

00:50:38   because their great fear back then when they flipped the switch was that every app was going

00:50:43   to just move all payments outside the App Store, and Apple would be left holding the bag for all

00:50:48   these free apps that then were all being monetized on the web, that all of the economy would move

00:50:53   outside the App Store. And the revenues were nowhere nearly as big back then, so that was a

00:50:57   big concern for them. But over the years, everything grew. And then more recently, Apple made the

00:51:02   statement that they were going to—I forget what it was—double their services revenue in the span

00:51:06   of so many years, and the App Store has always been the biggest driver of services revenue.

00:51:11   So it seems like they did everything they possibly could to juice App Store revenues, so they could

00:51:16   juice services revenues, so they could make that number. But then they didn't say anything again.

00:51:21   I thought that was a big sign. Like, they didn't immediately say, "And we're going to double it

00:51:24   again in another few years." They just let it go at that point, and I thought, "Well,

00:51:28   maybe they've learned something, and they're going to go in, and in the face of all these potential

00:51:33   obstacles and ill will, they'll say, 'Okay, now, you know, the App Store is performing way beyond

00:51:39   our wildest dreams.'" Steve said he would have been super happy if it operated just slightly above

00:51:43   break-even, and now it's this powerhouse, and we're going to return some of that value to all of you

00:51:48   that helped us build it. It would have been a perfect opportunity, but same thing when they saw

00:51:53   that value wasn't leaving the App Store that some people would pay for convenience. Same thing when

00:51:58   once they'd made those numbers for Wall Street with the services, they did nothing. They left

00:52:02   the status quo. Even with that famous, now, Phil Schiller letter, they just left the status quo,

00:52:07   and that I don't understand, because that was just such an obvious missile just rearing straight at

00:52:13   them. Yeah, the Schiller, I wrote about that just before WWDC, I think literally the morning of WWDC,

00:52:19   and it's just striking, and I'm not surprised that it exists because I know Phil Schiller well

00:52:26   enough to know that he would think of things like this, and I know that he thinks he sees the value

00:52:33   in the brand as something that you can't put a dollar price on. And, you know, again, it's like,

00:52:41   look at the iPod, right? I do think some of the mistakes that Apple made in hindsight were

00:52:47   coming from the iPod, where everything was either a song or a TV show or a movie that you pay,

00:52:58   you know, a dollar or you pay $10 for the movie, and Apple keeps 30% and the producer of the song,

00:53:07   the artist, you know, the publisher of the song or the studio behind the movie gets 70%,

00:53:12   and that's a much better cut than they got in the old days in retail selling discs or tapes,

00:53:18   and it works out for everybody, and you know the rules up front and it's purchased and there's no

00:53:24   concept of subscriptions or in-app purchases or something like that. And there's only one middle

00:53:28   person, there's no two middle people, which often exists in the App Store now. Right, and I think,

00:53:32   you know, they looked at the App Store the same way that, you know, you'd buy these apps for a

00:53:37   dollar or five dollars or ten dollars. I mean, it's kind of funny when you look at the first App Store

00:53:42   the announcement of the App Store, how with the prices they were put up in their hypothetical,

00:53:47   you know, here's like an example of what it looked like, and you know, it was based on their concept

00:53:51   of the Mac market, right, where that's how independent third-party Mac apps were sold.

00:53:56   You'd make an app and if you wanted it to be a paid app, you'd sell it for 20 bucks or 30 bucks

00:54:01   or 40 bucks or, you know, ridiculous prices like $50 for an application. That's what they cost

00:54:07   before the iPhone, like when I bought a stupid sticky notes app for the Palm OS, it was like 50

00:54:11   bucks. I know, I remember buying apps for the Palm OS. They were definitely similarly priced to the

00:54:18   Mac. It wasn't just like, oh, it's a tiny device in your pocket, so the price should be tiny too.

00:54:22   It was, no, this is what third-party independent software costs, whatever the platform,

00:54:27   and I think Apple based their conception of how it would work on that.

00:54:32   But the Schiller idea of it, just the basic idea that he tossed out there, do we think 70/30 is

00:54:39   going to last forever? And if not, why don't we just, you know, why don't we pick a number like

00:54:44   a billion dollar a year run rate and, you know, once we reach it, you know, we could lower the

00:54:50   rate to keep it at a billion as it grows to 25/75, 20/80, 85/15. I think if they had done that,

00:54:59   they'd be at, they'd still be so much higher than a billion dollars a year run rate because I think

00:55:05   the other funny thing looking at these emails from the Epic trial is how much more popular the

00:55:10   iPhone and App Store both are than even their internal wildest dreams, right? It's, you know,

00:55:18   like you even just said that Steve Jobs, when they announced the original iPhone, he was like,

00:55:21   we're shooting for 1% market fare. We think that'd be great, you know, we'll take the, you know,

00:55:26   premium 1% market share. It's ridiculous how successful it's been. But they don't, the other

00:55:33   thing is with iPods, they didn't need the money from iTunes, they needed the money from the iPods.

00:55:39   They made the primary business of the company was selling iPods, in the music business, was selling

00:55:47   iPods. And their secondary business was a great music store in a then great desktop music collection

00:55:57   app for your MP3 files. And, you know, that was just icing on the cake, but it was primarily

00:56:05   all about making money on iPod. And their iPhone business still is, and will remain primarily about

00:56:13   selling people $5, $6, $7, $800, $1,100, $1,200 iPhones at a decent margin. That's a great business

00:56:24   for them. Well, that's the, that is the craziest thing. I've said this before, or at least I've

00:56:30   written it. I think I said it on dithering, but the craziest thing about this to me is I don't

00:56:34   recall any company in my lifetime or that I could think of in historical terms, who got into serious

00:56:41   antitrust trouble over a side hustle. Yes, it is always the main business. Like, it's not like

00:56:50   AT&T got broken up because they had the exclusive rights to Unix at the time. No, it was about the

00:56:58   friggin' phone business and the crazy $2 a minute rates they charge for a call that went across

00:57:05   state lines. It wasn't friggin' Unix. It's crazy that they're in hot water. And, you know, it's

00:57:13   somewhat serious. I mean, the bills are being driven. And there's also, no matter what happens,

00:57:18   even if all of these bills die in Congress and nothing really comes out of the EU regulators,

00:57:25   there's a PR hit to this, right? Of constantly being in the industry.

00:57:30   And developer relation hits.

00:57:32   Right, right. And that's the other factor is that the resentment among developers over Apple's,

00:57:39   to them, to third-party developers, seeming greed over maximizing app store revenue is so pervasive

00:57:47   that it's, and I don't think Apple gets it, which we can get to later. Anyway.

00:57:53   And the thing I think the app store was invented in a time where Apple saw themselves,

00:57:56   like you said, from the iPod, where they were the middle person. They would aggregate all these apps

00:58:00   and sell them, taking 30% from the paid apps. But then we started getting all these secondary

00:58:05   aggregators. Like Spotify just aggregates a bunch of music, takes their percentage and then passes

00:58:09   it on. Amazon aggregates a bunch of eBooks or a bunch of comic books and takes their percentage

00:58:14   and passes it on. But these models don't support multiple middle people. You can't have Amazon

00:58:19   taking 30% to aggregate the books and then Apple taking 30% to aggregate the apps. There's just not

00:58:24   enough percent. And no one's really willing to give that percentage up. And they're also not

00:58:30   willing enough to care about the user experience, which is so weird for Apple because they're almost

00:58:34   always user experience first. And it's been this problem for over, or at least for a decade.

00:58:39   And that again, to me is perplexing. I understand how we got here. I don't understand how we haven't

00:58:44   gotten out of here yet. Yeah, so I downloaded FanHouse last night, because I finally dug into

00:58:49   it. And FanHouse, the app is largely, clearly from the way I can just feel, it's largely a bunch of

00:58:58   web views. It's, in my opinion, not a great iOS app. But you know, it's, you know, you're, you know,

00:59:04   you can build an app that way. And so okay, but because it's a web view, they could do things

00:59:08   remotely. And they took out that subscribe button. And so if you download, at least as of this

00:59:13   recording, the FanHouse iOS app, if you're a new user, you can sign up and I scored at Gruber,

00:59:20   you know, just in case, who knows, I guess I could use it. It's always good to have my username.

00:59:24   But I was like, well, let me see what it looks like to subscribe to somebody in the app. What's

00:59:29   going to happen? And I found somebody and you can find their user profile. It's like looking at like

00:59:34   @ReneeRitchie in Twitter. And what do you expect to see near the top, you expect to see a button

00:59:41   that says follow or subscribe, right? Well, there's no button. And it's like, how do I follow somebody?

00:59:47   And I'm like scrolling around, I swear to God, I use the app for 10 straight minutes thinking I was

00:59:52   losing my mind. Maybe I'm getting old. I don't understand these kids apps today. Yes. And I went

00:59:58   to the help in the app, and it doesn't say anything. And then eventually, like, maybe 15

01:00:03   minutes in, I went to their website and their website, you go to website, hit help. And it says,

01:00:07   how do I follow somebody and it says you cannot follow somebody in from the app, you have to go

01:00:12   follow them on the website, and then you'll see them in the app. That's a change they've made in

01:00:17   the last week or so since Apple tried to crack down on them in it. But yet, even after doing so

01:00:24   Apple, the only concession they got was that they were their grace period to continue not offering

01:00:30   in app purchases through the end of the year. It gets to your point about user experience. What

01:00:35   Apple, Apple's squeezing FanHouse to try to get them to use in app purchase for these fan base

01:00:43   subscriptions, whatever you want to call that this creator type thing, forced FanHouse to make an app

01:00:51   that doesn't let you that you're supposed to follow people in where the app doesn't let you

01:00:56   follow people, right? Download Netflix, good luck figuring out how to sign up. I wrote a piece years

01:01:02   ago where Netflix does have a phone number and I called the phone number. You remember this piece?

01:01:08   I called them up and it's I was like, "Hey, I downloaded the iPhone app. How do I,

01:01:13   I don't have an account. How do I sign up?" And they were ready for it. Yeah, you go to

01:01:18   net, go to your computer or you could do it on your phone too. Go to Netflix.com in your

01:01:24   web browser and you can sign up there. And they were ready for it. But how many companies have,

01:01:30   number one, that's ridiculous, right? That you have to make a phone call

01:01:33   in the internet age from an app. It's like signing up for a magazine in 1978. You know,

01:01:41   you got to call Sports Illustrated and, you know, call...

01:01:44   Like trying to unsubscribe from the New York Times today.

01:01:46   Right. Call now to subscribe to Sports Illustrated. It's ridiculous. But how can a small

01:01:53   developer compete with that if there is an official exemption for a phone number that's

01:01:59   allowed to do? But it's a terrible experience. It truly is. And they don't need to have every

01:02:05   dollar. So what? And even if internally Apple thinks that they should be using in-app purchase

01:02:11   and they should be making more than they would be in a world where they significantly lessen

01:02:16   their grip on trying to capture 30% of all App Store, you know, commerce for digital

01:02:23   goods consumed on the phone. Even if internally Apple truly believes—and I think they do,

01:02:30   I think they truly do believe that they deserve it.

01:02:32   It's just so Governor Tarkin. You know, it's not a good look.

01:02:35   It's just have some grace as the Goliath in the relationship.

01:02:41   And again, I know I say this all the time, often with moles on the show,

01:02:45   it is so easy to play spend Tim Cook's money. I get it. But this is one where

01:02:52   the benefits—Apple would get something. They would get better publicity, better developer relations,

01:02:59   they'd—

01:03:00   Better user experience.

01:03:01   Better user experience, all reasons to sell more iPhones and iPads, and they would get this

01:03:10   regulatory pressure off of them. I mean, it's kind of—

01:03:15   Or at the very least have a much more defensible position in the face of anyone trying to broadly

01:03:19   regulate big tech.

01:03:21   I just don't see it, especially given the trends. And I know all things come to an end.

01:03:26   At some point, somebody's going to buy the last iPhone ever. You know, nobody's buying

01:03:33   Model T Fords anymore. Well, although I guess they still are buying Ford cars, so who knows?

01:03:39   I don't think in the 1980s, people thought the Macintosh would be a thriving 4 million units per

01:03:48   quarter business in the year 2021. So who knows? Maybe phones will still be a huge thing 40, 50,

01:03:55   60 years from now, like cars are for Ford. I realize my Ford example is actually counter

01:04:00   to what I'm arguing. But Ford still is in the business of selling their cars for a profit,

01:04:06   right? And yeah, you probably do. I do see stories about people getting nickel and dimed and

01:04:12   car makers—

01:04:14   Well, it's like charging for card play on BMW. It's just you don't need that money.

01:04:17   Yeah. Or putting ads on the dashboard now that the ads can be on the dashboard.

01:04:23   Like Samsung phones have ads on the on the lock screen or the home screen. I just bought

01:04:30   your phone. You don't do that.

01:04:32   Right. It's like there used to be that there were no electronics on the dashboard, and your radio

01:04:37   was literally completely analog. It was a little stick behind a piece of Plexiglas that you moved,

01:04:43   and you set your favorites with literal radio buttons to punch in your favorite stations.

01:04:48   And then we got these little low-res LCD, black and white digital things for the radio station.

01:04:55   It's like, "Oh, that's cool." And then everything gets modernized, and all of a sudden,

01:04:59   full-color LED displays are possible, and they're pretty big. And it's like, "Boy,

01:05:06   that's a cool thing to put in your dashboard. I feel like I'm in the future. It's a spaceship."

01:05:10   And then somebody has the idea, "Wait, you can put ads on that screen."

01:05:14   Anything that can—

01:05:16   Now you're half afraid you're driving a Tesla, you'll see a Dogecoin meme.

01:05:19   It's like it's just gone too far.

01:05:21   Anyway, all right. Let's move on to WWDC after this. I'm going to tell you about our next

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01:07:09   You had an excellent post-WWDC interview with Kevin Lynch and Deidre Kaldbeck

01:07:22   from Product Marketing about Apple Watch and WatchOS. And as soon as I saw her on YouTube,

01:07:29   I was like, "She? I know. Have I met her?" And that's the weird thing about being in the media

01:07:35   racket is there's an awful lot of people in product marketing who I have met. And then

01:07:40   my favorite thing about your video is how much you cut in mid-sentence to callbacks from previous

01:07:50   keynotes, referring to old features. And she was the person who did the—to me, still arguably the

01:07:59   greatest demo I've ever—maybe the only one that rivals Phil Schiller's jump from 20 feet high

01:08:05   to Javits Center to show that Wi-Fi works wirelessly back in like 1999 or 1998. She

01:08:13   was the one who was on the wind surfing board? What was it like? A paddleboard, yeah.

01:08:19   A paddleboard in the middle of a lake, live, during a live event, talking to the audience

01:08:26   via her cellular Apple Watch. Yep. Showing both that it was cellular, that it worked,

01:08:34   that it sounded pretty good, and that the watch was waterproof. Although I guess she didn't

01:08:40   prove that. She did not fall. But anyway. No, but it was a risk she was willing to take.

01:08:46   But it was so great the way you sliced that in. You mentioned it, but then you cut to it,

01:08:52   and it's like, "Ah, man, that was great." I love the way you cut that stuff in. How much time did

01:08:57   that—you cut that whole thing yourself, right? You do all your own editing? Yeah, yeah. I mean,

01:09:02   for good or for ill, I just love the editing process, so I try to learn as much as I can.

01:09:06   I just thought it would be important because, you know, a lot of us know all the players involved,

01:09:10   but you might have seen them before and not recognize them immediately. So if I can give

01:09:13   you something memorable like that paddleboard scene or Kevin dancing, if I can do that early on,

01:09:18   you'll remember who they are and then be more invested in what they say, I hope.

01:09:21   You put it even in the title of the video, that it has to work in two seconds. I thought

01:09:28   it was a very open interview, and I thought that that bit from Kevin Lynch about how they sort of

01:09:35   had a "come to Jesus" moment where it's like, we should really focus on getting everything a user

01:09:44   really would want to do, or almost everything, to be something they can accomplish on the watch

01:09:50   in two seconds or less. And that's a tremendous challenge because relative to a—relative even

01:09:57   to a phone, it has a tiny screen. It has two sources of input, really, or three maybe if you

01:10:07   count the side button. There's a side button you can click, there's a crown you can either click

01:10:13   or scroll, and then there's a touch screen, and that's it. And they even took away some controls

01:10:20   because they've taken away the force touch type thing to go in the name of who knows why, but

01:10:28   there's very little input, very little screen. Discoverability is a good reason. Well, I think

01:10:33   discoverability combined with we could use the space that takes up behind the screen,

01:10:39   we could put that to better use. I thought that was really interesting, and I think it does show.

01:10:48   There's a real sense and there's a real continuity of watchOS from watchOS 1 through watchOS 8 is

01:10:59   what was announced last week or are we up to watchOS 9? It's 8 now, right? No, I think it's 8,

01:11:03   yeah. There's a direct continuity of where it's never—it's the platform that I guess has gone the

01:11:11   longest in Apple history without a sort of paint job, right? Like eight years after the Mac would

01:11:21   be 1992, well, System 7 was pretty significantly different than System 6 and earlier. Maybe,

01:11:30   arguably, the Mac was still, you know, watchOS is still chasing the Mac before the Mac really got a

01:11:36   thorough rethink with Mac OS 8 visually. It's a very continuous line, and what I took away from

01:11:47   that interview is how clarifying Apple's internal vision of the watch is. Yeah, I agree. I think

01:11:54   there's like there's way more constraints on what you can do on a watch, and they've been much more

01:11:58   systematic about it. Like they dropped things like glances, they made alternative—like you don't

01:12:03   have to deal with the home screen anymore, you can just have that list of apps. So they slowly

01:12:09   but steadily evolved it, but nothing—I don't think it's as big as even a phone and you can have that

01:12:15   much—it's much more driven by the needs of the smallness of the screen. I'm not saying this at

01:12:21   all very well. But they have a vision for what it's good for and what it can be better for,

01:12:29   going forward. And I don't think it's their fault. I think that the gold watches, the edition ones

01:12:40   that cost $20,000, were a disaster. And I know everybody knows that internally there was a lot of

01:12:46   debate over the entire endeavor. But that's hardware. In terms of what the watch does,

01:12:53   they definitely had a few ideas at first that didn't pan out, like using it as a main reason

01:13:01   to get one, sending your heartbeats to loved ones and stuff, which I didn't think was ridiculous.

01:13:08   And I don't think I'm an overly sentimental person, to say the least. But I was like,

01:13:15   "Maybe that sounds kind of interesting to me. Maybe I would have really loved that,

01:13:19   like in high school or something like that." That stuff didn't really pan out.

01:13:23   But they really, really clarified on measuring health and fitness, monitoring it,

01:13:31   and dealing with notifications. And you get notifications on your wrist. And then,

01:13:37   being a—this is where that two-second thing comes in. It's like, "Okay, you got a text message,

01:13:42   but you only have your watch with you. How do you respond to this in two seconds?"

01:13:47   And they've been slowly adding back just better versions. Originally, they had these five pillars

01:13:52   that I think that they said, "This is the value that the Apple Watch is going to give you." And

01:13:56   it was health, but it was also remote control. It was also identity and authentication and payments

01:14:01   and communications. And it was too much for a year-one product. It just went over—it confused

01:14:08   people. Instead of making them more interested, it disqualified them instead of qualifying them in.

01:14:12   And then they focused down on the health and fitness aspects. And that made a lot of sense

01:14:17   to people because it was something above and beyond what an iPhone could do. It was demonstrable,

01:14:22   added value. But now, slowly but surely, they're adding back interesting communication methods.

01:14:27   And now, with things like the whole ID system for driver's licenses, but also for schools and

01:14:32   things like that, they're adding back the identification and better remote control with

01:14:36   HomeKit. So I think they're building it back up to what the original vision was. They just had to

01:14:40   sharply pare it down to get everyone to start buying them in the first place.

01:14:43   Yeah, and some of the features they talked about this year to me are super compelling,

01:14:48   like using your watch to open your hotel door. And I know Disney World—I don't know if Disneyland is,

01:14:55   but I know Disney World is—you can use your Apple Watch instead of a MagicBand to go around the park

01:15:00   and, you know, put your—more or less put your park pass in your wallet, I guess, and

01:15:06   go in there. Those are super compelling features. But the other one—and I forgot about it, you know,

01:15:15   because WWDC was so packed this year. I couldn't keep all of the features I wanted to note in head.

01:15:23   And the one that your video reminded me of was the fall detection. Or not fall detection, the

01:15:30   fall prediction, right? It's sort of like—the fall detection, which I think was two years ago,

01:15:39   maybe three, but two or three years ago, they added this feature where somebody falls

01:15:45   and doesn't get up. The watch could detect it and notify somebody who you've set as an emergency

01:15:53   contact or put something on your wrist so that all you have to—if you could just tap the button on

01:15:59   your wrist, you can get help. This new feature is about predicting, "Hey, your gate seems unsteady

01:16:09   and matches the profile of a gate of somebody who's about to, you know, maybe you're lightheaded,"

01:16:15   whatever the reasons that people take a fall. And let's face it, this is a feature largely about

01:16:21   older people. It was such a fascinating feature. I really would never have thought about buying

01:16:26   my parents an Apple Watch before, but now it's—honestly, that seems like a reason to do it.

01:16:31   I know they might be resistant because they're sort of like, "I don't want a new thing," you know.

01:16:34   But—

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01:18:08   cook there, René. Good morning. That was pretty good. The other thing is I had an interview

01:18:16   too. I had Mr. Craig Federighi and Mr. Jaws back again. Remote, once again, me in Philadelphia,

01:18:26   them in California. I'm wondering what you think of it. I'm glad to have them both. I'd

01:18:34   rather have both than just have one. But remote, I don't know. I find the three-way interview,

01:18:46   doing it remote, to be very difficult. They don't make as much fun of each other remotely

01:18:55   as they do when they're in person. Not at all. It's always clear. It's not like, "Hey,

01:19:11   here's the contract. Here are the rules of the interview." I said during my show this

01:19:15   year that there's no, "Hey, give us a list of questions," and stuff like that. There's

01:19:20   really just a handshake agreement that the topic is stuff it from WWDC. It's a WWDC

01:19:28   show, not a— Mine was the same. It's like, "Talk, watch, and help," but there were

01:19:32   no rules about what you could talk about within those constraints. Not the state of Apple

01:19:37   or anything outside. Can't go back and bitch about the touch bar or something like that.

01:19:46   I'm happy to agree to it. When my show is live in the theater and the keynote is just

01:19:55   a day before, it makes intuitive sense that it should be that way because everybody who's

01:19:59   in the audience is all still jazzed up from the keynote and stuff like that. Anyway, what

01:20:04   I'm trying to say is it's clear that Federighi is the star, and he's great at it. And Jaws

01:20:12   is there to back him up. He's playing rhythm guitar. Also, this year there was no hardware,

01:20:18   and there has been hardware two out of the last three years and three out of the last

01:20:22   five years. And when there's no hardware, Craig is literally the star. And when there

01:20:27   is hardware, you get to ask Jaws all sorts of interesting questions about iMac Pros and

01:20:31   Mac Pros and Apple Silicon, which you couldn't do this year. Right. And if I were to do an

01:20:38   interview show like that a couple of days after the iPhone 13 or 12s or whatever is

01:20:44   going to come out this fall, I think clearly Jaws would be playing lead guitar to continue

01:20:51   the analogy. But that said, on stage, it's easier and comes more naturally to me to think

01:21:04   it's been a couple minutes since Jaws has piped in. Let me think of something to throw

01:21:10   to Jaws. And even though in general, we had a pretty good low latency connection for everything.

01:21:20   Jaws was, I think, a little bit behind latency-wise. Just a little. But we had very little crosstalk

01:21:28   that had to be edited out, and it went pretty well technically. But I still find it very

01:21:34   hard to pay attention to both of them. Even though without the crosstalk, only one's talking

01:21:38   at a time, I find it hard to pay attention to both. And then I panic and think, "Wait,

01:21:43   what about Jaws? Wait, and what was I thinking?" I don't know. What did you think about that?

01:21:49   Yeah, no, like for me, it's just I'm never sure who's going to say what when. So if I

01:21:54   wait too long, it's awkward. If I don't wait long enough, maybe I'm going to talk when

01:21:57   the other person wants to add their two cents in to what the first person just answered.

01:22:01   So it's a much dafter juggling act, I think. And you've got like, "Oh, sorry." But then

01:22:06   if you say that, they're like, "Oh, I was just about to say…" And then you can't

01:22:10   have a natural sentence to start with, "Oh, I was just about to say…" So you've

01:22:13   got to, I think, be… It's a whole different art form. It just feels like to be able to

01:22:17   keep people on a panel in front of you and make sure everyone… There's no dead air,

01:22:22   but there's not too much overlap.

01:22:23   Yeah, it's tough. Your show looked great, too. Do you know how they recorded their sides?

01:22:32   iPhones. It's always been iPhones.

01:22:35   Yeah, that's what we did. And I know, again, I mentioned it explicitly up front on my show

01:22:41   that last year I'd tell people that and they didn't believe me. I was like, "No,

01:22:46   seriously, all three of us were on iPhones." And no, Jaws and Federighi are not using green

01:22:52   screens. That's actually what it looks like at that time of day in that part of the ring

01:22:58   on Apple Park.

01:22:59   With Smart HDR 3 because it can expose both the foreground and the background, which you

01:23:03   don't usually get on a lot of cameras.

01:23:05   It's impressive. It's surprising how many people thought they were on green screen for

01:23:11   COVID reasons, not for disingenuous purposes. But no, that's actually what it looks like

01:23:17   coming off the camera. I thought that your footage looked great, too.

01:23:20   Yeah, they did a really good job. I was worried they might give me HDR footage at first and

01:23:23   I'd have to figure out how to color grade it, but they didn't. They gave me really

01:23:26   good solid footage.

01:23:28   Anyway, let me let you ask me or you say what struck you with my interview because I'm

01:23:35   not the one to talk about it in the third person.

01:23:39   No, I like the way that you got the explanations out of them on the new features or Craig especially

01:23:45   on the new features because I imagine just every year there's a huge pile on his desk

01:23:50   of features that marketing thinks people are going to be really interested in and will

01:23:53   help them sell more devices.

01:23:54   But also features engineers have been waiting forever because they personally want to implement

01:23:58   them. And this year in particular, because it was such a strange year and we saw such

01:24:02   a focus on features that really only make sense because of the year that we had like

01:24:06   the FaceTime sharing and things like that.

01:24:08   I thought it was really great that you got some of the standard, we make the features

01:24:13   we want to make, but it was really clear that this was the features that they felt like

01:24:16   they really needed to make this year.

01:24:18   Yeah. I mean, it's just, it cannot be coincidence that FaceTime and the screen sharing, what's

01:24:27   it called? SharePlay.

01:24:28   SharePlay. I was going to say ShareTime, but it's SharePlay.

01:24:34   But these are features that I'm sure that they haven't, it's not that they haven't

01:24:43   thought about them, but it's like the remote aspect, the everybody, nobody's together

01:24:49   for an entire year, over a year, clearly brought to a head, "Shit, we should not have kept

01:24:55   these ideas on the back burner. FaceTime, we should have had FaceTime be better by now."

01:25:02   I don't think I asked about, because I always run out of time and I have more questions

01:25:07   than time. I don't think I asked about FaceTime for Android, right? Which is really FaceTime

01:25:12   for the web.

01:25:13   That's a web view, yeah.

01:25:14   Right. Right. Which is interesting. But I think that, and again, this gets to the sort

01:25:19   of thing that they're not going to want to talk about where it's like, they're not

01:25:22   going to want to talk about why they do things. Other than that, we think this is a good feature

01:25:26   that people will like. But I think the implication of, I don't know that FaceTime for the web,

01:25:36   which is FaceTime for Windows or Android, I don't think it would have happened without

01:25:42   the pandemic. I really don't. I think that it might have been something they forever

01:25:47   continued to think, "Eh, maybe next year, maybe soon." But I think that the experience

01:25:52   of using all of the available things that could work with cross-platform over the last

01:25:59   year are so bad in so many ways that Zoom got to jump from being an obscure company

01:26:10   to being...

01:26:11   Yeah.

01:26:12   ...one of the most famous software companies in the world. That was an opportunity they

01:26:17   let slip away. And I think that now that they have this, FaceTime is something that can

01:26:24   be there going forward, is something more people can depend on. But the old way where

01:26:31   FaceTime was limited to Apple devices was something that you just couldn't set up if

01:26:37   your doctor was going to have remote visits. I had my annual checkup last year remote because

01:26:44   I couldn't go to the doctor because our doctor's office wasn't allowed to open. And it was

01:26:50   on Zoom because she couldn't use FaceTime because she doesn't know that all of her patients

01:26:54   have iPhones because they don't all have iPhones, right? I mean, that's just the fact. I don't

01:26:59   know that FaceTime for the web is going to enable or would push more people if it ever

01:27:06   happens again, or even for the things that will stay remote even without a pandemic to

01:27:13   use it, but they could. And changing features like the grid view and having multiple people

01:27:18   in a FaceTime that actually is usable and makes sense rather than looks cool in a demo,

01:27:26   I think was driven by the real world.

01:27:28   Yeah, and I wonder how much of that was also the desire to create those links, to be able

01:27:33   to schedule FaceTime calls, having to have some sort of web interface because you don't

01:27:38   know when or where someone's going to be required to pick up one of those things. And it's a

01:27:44   weird sort of a thing because Steve Jobs famously announced that it's going to be open sourced.

01:27:49   And the project team was standing there going, "What? Wait, why? How?" And then they got sued

01:27:54   and they got sued and re-sued and over-sued and they've been litigating it for 10 years

01:27:58   over these patents. And it just seemed like FaceTime, we got FaceTime audio, but then

01:28:02   nothing for like a decade. And then finally we started getting those new features like

01:28:06   FaceTime groups, but only really recently. And so I think it's too early to tell, but

01:28:10   they had such an enormous lead and this doesn't quite feel like catch up because they're really

01:28:14   not there the way that even like a Skype or especially not a Zoom is, but it's nice that

01:28:20   they are paying attention to it and it has some form of like, if your family has big

01:28:24   device love or is like a cross device family, you can use it now.

01:28:29   One of my favorite moments in my interview was when Federighi went all the way back to,

01:28:34   you know, he was talking about Apple's historic roots supporting privacy, but that in the

01:28:38   old days, your data was on a floppy disk and the floppy disk you'd like just put in your

01:28:42   shirt pocket, but you had it, it was in your control. And I enjoyed that because I thought

01:28:49   that the, you know, it was clear that he meant it. Like it, it's like, I know his, you know,

01:28:54   his title is software engineering honcho or whatever the hell it is, you know, senior

01:28:59   vice president for software engineering, but the privacy features is more than just like

01:29:07   a dictum from above, like, okay, software chief, all of our software has to be as private

01:29:13   as possible. And that's just, that's just the rule, you know, like in a way that the

01:29:17   software has to comply with all of these local rules. Like when you're in Belarus, you know,

01:29:24   the, oh, you know, we can't do X, Y, or Z because it's, you know, constrained. It's

01:29:29   not just, okay, here's a checklist of these privacy related things that we, I've got

01:29:32   to direct my teams to implement and, you know, have done in time. It means something to him.

01:29:39   It really, I, and I know some people want to take the cynical point that everything

01:29:45   anybody in a public statement for a big company says is bullshit. But I, I think it's palpable

01:29:53   that with Federighi and Jaws, that the privacy stuff, it really does mean something to them.

01:30:00   And you can argue that there are competitive aspects to their, to this stance that they've

01:30:06   taken that are really about taking ad money from Facebook for apps and stuff like that.

01:30:13   It's, I don't, I don't think that's, I don't think it's, it's not like, it's

01:30:18   not a smaller factor, but it's clearly not driving it.

01:30:22   Oh, and you can tell because the, the way they're doing privacy is they're not coming

01:30:26   up with features and then figuring out how to make them private. They're, they're

01:30:30   involving their privacy team in the entire, they call it privacy by design, but they actually

01:30:33   mean that the privacy is, is they're not just making privacy features and the privacy

01:30:38   features they're making are good. And they keep going through the system and saying,

01:30:41   what, what are the points of failure in our current privacy model and how can we fix those

01:30:45   and how can we expand those? And we saw that with Hide My Email and with Apple's new,

01:30:51   not, not a VPN IP hiding service and iCloud Plus, all those things, but all the features

01:30:57   are rolling out the same way all those features are accessible from day one. They're also

01:31:00   private now from day one and have those sort of report cards on them from day one. And

01:31:06   that is such a massive expenditure and realignment of engineering resources that you can't

01:31:11   do that just to tweak Facebook's nose. That is a, that is a philosophical cornerstone

01:31:16   of a company at that point.

01:31:20   It was interesting to me at the end, because I feel like I don't think there's any question

01:31:26   about it and I'm not just trying to be self-deprecating. I have trouble ending these interviews because

01:31:31   I want to keep going because I've got more questions. But I know over the time I've

01:31:37   been allotted and it's, you know, I thought this year I finally had a good segue to a

01:31:45   final question. I thought it was a good question and I thought their interest, their answers

01:31:50   were interesting, but I also thought it was disappointing. And I basically asked about

01:31:55   the general growing sentiment of developer discontent, third-party developer discontent.

01:32:04   And I think it's fair to say that both of them seemed, they, I think literally said

01:32:12   they don't understand it. They don't get it. And, and, you know, Federighi from the

01:32:16   perspective, look, I know what we are, you know, we love our third-party developers.

01:32:20   We've built all these APIs for them. And Jaws pointed out that, you know, that this

01:32:24   was the 38th WWDC and, you know, it's a huge production. It's a massive, and other

01:32:32   than the keynote, it's all for developers. And I get it. And that is true. And I really

01:32:41   think they mean it. I, you know, I don't think it's, again, I don't think it's

01:32:46   bullshit, but I also think though that because they mean it, what we on the outside who perceive

01:32:54   the discontent and who agree with many of the points of third-party developer discontent

01:33:00   need to deal with the fact that Apple doesn't see it that way. And that they, you know,

01:33:07   I think there's like, well, one is Craig's team is populated largely from independent

01:33:12   developers. Like some of our favorite developers work for Craig now. And he has a front row

01:33:17   seat to a lot of their sentiments and a lot of the way they express things and a lot of

01:33:20   their worldviews. And that is, and a lot of people, even on like Eddie's teams, which

01:33:25   are the more business focused teams, because the App Store is nominally under Phil now.

01:33:29   But my understanding is that's US App Store and the App Store app and Eddie's team is

01:33:33   still responsible for international and for like the servers and a lot of the business

01:33:37   infrastructure around there. But a lot of them came, you know, even from like our world,

01:33:41   like from bloggers or from people in Apple editorial, and they have a lot of really good

01:33:45   relationships with developers, but that's not everybody. And I think they have two points

01:33:50   of view. One is that we're always told we're wrong and we always just fight our way through

01:33:54   it and we're inevitably proven right. And that makes them even more susceptible to a

01:33:58   sort of delusion when that's not the case. And also that Twitter is a huge megaphone

01:34:03   and they sometimes, Apple sometimes thinks that you only get the noisiest 10% on Twitter.

01:34:09   And there's probably a 90% people who aren't mad at them, who just aren't complaining on

01:34:12   Twitter. And that is sometimes going to be true, but it also leaves you open to an even

01:34:16   bigger problem in the cases where that is not at all true.

01:34:19   Well said. All right, let me take a break here. Thank our third and final sponsor, Memberful.

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01:35:40   go to memberful.com today. That's all they want you to know. You don't have a code or

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01:35:50   and they have a URL in the show notes with a UTM code that I can't read online. And you

01:35:56   can get started today. My thanks to Memberful for supporting the show. That leaves WWDC

01:36:03   itself.

01:36:04   Well, there's no way we can cover it. And even if we didn't have my divorce with Ben

01:36:14   Thompson hanging over my head.

01:36:16   So can I ask you a quick question then on what I thought was one of the most interesting

01:36:19   aspects?

01:36:20   Absolutely.

01:36:21   So, no new hardware. And there were some people hyping new hardware. I was certainly really

01:36:26   hyped for new hardware because a new 16-inch MacBook Pro is, I need to have it in my life

01:36:33   as soon as possible. But there was such a huge, expectational debt for it. And we ended

01:36:40   up not getting any new hardware, which is, again, not always the case at WWDC. But it

01:36:45   was also the one-year anniversary of announcing Apple Silicon. So it didn't seem wild to me

01:36:50   that they would take advantage of that and show off the next big step in Apple Silicon.

01:36:54   But ultimately, it was one of those software-only shows. And I felt like that expectational

01:36:59   debt, people were upset by two things. By that, and also some people really did, despite

01:37:06   all logic and reason, believe that putting an M1 chip in an iPad meant Mac OS was coming

01:37:12   to an iPad. And we're so upset that didn't happen, that that seemed to sort of put a

01:37:17   cloud over the whole show for them.

01:37:19   I didn't see that. I saw the number of people who were predicting or actually saying they

01:37:26   had sources claiming that hardware was coming. Specifically, I guess the pro-level 16-inch

01:37:34   MacBook Pro and the pro-level 13-inch, or I guess maybe 14-inch MacBook Pro to separate

01:37:40   it from the sort of non-pro one we already have. I did not see that inverse. That's

01:37:47   interesting though that people thought putting the M1 in the iPad meant the Mac OS was coming

01:37:54   to the iPad too.

01:37:56   Yeah, Tim Cook took it out of the Mac. He took it out of the Mac, John, and he put it

01:38:00   in the iPad, so therefore the Mac is coming to the iPad.

01:38:02   That was my least favorite part of the keynote, by the way. So I will answer your questions,

01:38:06   then Ezra. That's a good starting point. That little mini movie with Tim Cook as the

01:38:12   Mission Impossible guy going into steel, that was my least favorite part of the keynote.

01:38:16   I like having fun, and I like the things they do. I liked, for example, the James Bond-themed

01:38:22   music with Kyan Drance. It was to take out the mini, right?

01:38:29   Yes.

01:38:30   I believe.

01:38:31   And Craig did the whole car thing this year for Mac OS.

01:38:34   Yeah, yeah, and he literally shifted gears. I was like, "Oh yeah, I get it. That's

01:38:39   why he's in a car. They're shifting gears to talk about Mac OS." I thought that

01:38:44   the Tim Cook thing was flat, because there was nothing funny about it. Even if you take

01:38:53   the concept as a high-concept gag, it's still, "He's Tim Cook. Why can't he just

01:39:00   walk in and take the chip?" Right? You know what I mean? Like, Tom Cruise had to—

01:39:05   Like, "Sarooji, has it locked away from him?"

01:39:06   Yeah, Tom Cruise had to break into the CIA and go down on a drop line and steal the knock

01:39:18   list because he wasn't in the CIA, and he was stealing this thing. The director of the

01:39:23   CIA could have just come over and knocked on the guy's door and said, "Hey, give

01:39:27   me the knock list." And it'd be like, "Oh, okay, sir. Here's the knock list."

01:39:31   Why does Tim Cook need to do that? I thought that was—I don't know. I didn't like

01:39:38   it. But anyway, let's take them in order. Let's say hardware first. I guess—I don't

01:39:46   know about the rumors. I have no idea where the people who claim to have sources who said

01:39:50   that they were coming—I think it just shows that a lot of people take sources who they

01:39:57   don't—either don't verify or—it's a weird business, the rumor game.

01:40:06   I think the expectation-wise thing is driven in part by the fact that the M1 has been so

01:40:14   successful. Right? It's just—what can you say bad about it? Right? All of the M1 Macs

01:40:20   are just enormous successes, universally hailed. The iMac had just come out. They're clearly

01:40:26   still firing. The iMac at least showed that they still have tremendous momentum on releasing

01:40:33   new Apple Silicon Macs and showed, "Ah, here's our first dose of new industrial design

01:40:42   that was based on designing a Mac around Apple Silicon," as opposed to last November's

01:40:49   models, which were all physically identical, including the cameras to their Intel predecessors.

01:40:56   So you could see the momentum, and you can see—to me, the most exciting thing about

01:41:02   the new iMacs isn't the iMacs themselves, even though I think they're delightful and

01:41:05   really nice computers. It's the, "Yeah, this is Apple flexing its muscles by not having

01:41:12   to work around Intel's heat dissipation and performance per watt. This is exciting."

01:41:22   So of course they're going to keep the momentum going, and the—you know, the Mac Pro, I

01:41:28   feel like everybody's like, "Well, we can wait for that," because that's obviously

01:41:31   the hardest thing to build for the smallest audience, even though the prices will be high.

01:41:38   But at least for the pro-level MacBooks, I could see why people would think it's possible.

01:41:44   I certainly thought it was possible. I wasn't surprised either way. I wasn't surprised

01:41:48   that they weren't ready, and I wouldn't have been surprised if there was a half-hour

01:41:52   segment about the two new MacBook Pros, or even just one of the two MacBook Pros, right?

01:41:58   But I didn't think it was a sure thing, because it just doesn't—I don't know,

01:42:05   there's something, you know, like—and two, I keep going back to last year where they

01:42:10   said it was going to be a two-year transition. But clearly, now that they didn't come out

01:42:16   at WWDC, my expectation is that they will not come out until the fall. I mean, I don't—

01:42:22   A traditional October event.

01:42:24   Or November, like last year with the Mac. I mean, who knows? I mean, it might be—that

01:42:29   whole schedule might have all been pushed back a month by COVID. Yeah, I guess, ideally,

01:42:36   if they could—I guess anything they've ever done in November, ideally, if they had

01:42:39   to hit targets, you know, nothing had ever gone wrong. They'd always rather ship in

01:42:43   October than November, just because you're getting closer to the holidays and stuff.

01:42:51   I sort of think—because I know that you have written about this or, you know, YouTubed

01:42:58   about it extensively, like the idea of an M1X. But now we're out of time for an M1X,

01:43:05   because an M1X would basically be adding more GPU cores and more CPU cores to the M1 to

01:43:12   get better multi-core performance and better GPU performance. GPU performance always goes

01:43:18   up with more cores, because everything GPU-related is multithreaded. Whereas—and this is where,

01:43:25   to me, we've run out of time, where, sure, adding more cores, CPU cores, to an M1X would

01:43:34   make these Macs faster for some things, you know, like Xcode and certain things. But there's

01:43:42   an awful lot of stuff, even on the Mac, that remains single-threaded bound, right? JavaScript,

01:43:49   famously. And it would be weird for Apple to have an August event for these M1X MacBook

01:43:59   Pros, and then two months later release new MacBook Airs and consumer-grade 13-inch MacBook

01:44:07   Pros with the M2, and they'd be faster in single-threaded performance? That doesn't

01:44:13   sit right. There have been times where there are gaps in Apple's Pro Mac performance

01:44:21   and the consumer performance, like where the famous—I would just say the iMac Pro, which

01:44:29   only ever really had one instantiation, it got surpassed in single-core performance,

01:44:37   because it just sat there unchanged for a couple of years, and it was really mostly

01:44:41   something you'd only want to buy for multi-core.

01:44:43   And that was kind of Xeon's thing. It's not the single-core.

01:44:46   Exactly. It's Xeon's thing. It is what it is, and that's Apple having to play on

01:44:51   Intel's playground for CPU performance. That's what it was. But now that their entire

01:44:58   chip story is in their own hands, they'd never want to do that. They would never want

01:45:02   to—

01:45:03   What I wonder is that if we consider an M1 is an A14X, and then we'll have an A15 in

01:45:08   September with a new iPhone, and the M2 would be an A15X++, so to speak, they haven't

01:45:14   been updating iPad Pros as frequently as iPhones. They've been doing it sort of every 18

01:45:19   months. So there was an A12X and Z, but there was no A13X. So the iPads were behind the

01:45:26   iPhone in single-core operations until the M1 version came out, and they've been willing

01:45:33   to let them have better multi-core performance at the expense of single-core. So I wonder

01:45:37   if they'd be willing—I don't think they'd be willing to do that with a Mac, but I wonder

01:45:39   if they'll have that same approach where the M series don't get updated at the same

01:45:44   cadence as the A series does.

01:45:46   That's possible. You never know. We'll see, you know, right? We know the pattern

01:45:54   with iPhone, right? The iPhone is the most regular product Apple has ever had. It is

01:46:01   literally annual, except for one shift where they went from June releases to the September/October

01:46:07   releases. But that was—from everything I've suspected and sort of known, that was a strategic

01:46:15   shift that it was—that was a better time to release phones.

01:46:19   And it took over the iPod slot.

01:46:21   But I tend to think that they might keep—if they can keep the M series on an annual cycle.

01:46:30   I think they like the annual cycle, and I think that the reason the iPhone stayed on

01:46:33   it and other products haven't is, I think, primarily driven by the fact that it's their

01:46:40   highest priority product. So it's the one least likely to ever slip. And if—but in

01:46:46   theory, I think they would like to have other products updated annually. If they could,

01:46:51   it's just, you know, you can't—

01:46:52   It's only so much bandwidth.

01:46:54   Yeah. So anyway, my best guess at this point, completely uninformed by any sources, is that

01:47:00   the Pro MacBooks are going to have to wait for the M2 series, and that we'll see M2s

01:47:06   and M2Xs either side by side or near each other or something like that. I don't know.

01:47:11   What do you think?

01:47:12   I just want it as fast as I can get it, Jon. Honestly, I'm still editing on an Intel

01:47:15   box, and I want to switch so fast.

01:47:20   As far as macOS on iPad, I don't know why people think that. I guess I know people—I

01:47:25   know some people who just sort of idly think it, but it's like they idly think it in

01:47:30   a way that, "Boy, I wish I won the lottery." You know, I don't know. But it's not how

01:47:35   Apple operates. It makes no sense. The closest I could think of something Apple might do

01:47:43   would be to have some kind of Mac in an iPad app type thing, where your device still runs

01:47:51   iPad OS, but that you can launch an app, a virtualized macOS version. But that's the

01:48:02   closest I can think to something that Apple would even consider. That's just not how

01:48:07   they think about things. They don't think about the OS and the device as being interchangeable

01:48:13   parts that you could just do something like that. And quite frankly, the Mac, as we know

01:48:18   it, would not work right on iPad. It doesn't have touch. It doesn't rotate. It doesn't

01:48:23   expect to rotate. And obviously, they could just announce APIs and say, "All of a sudden,

01:48:29   you should expect screen rotation to change at any moment."

01:48:32   Reverse catalyst.

01:48:33   And you'll get a notification. But, you know, and I've said this all along, that all of

01:48:38   these controls aren't meant for touch. They're all too close to each other. And you could

01:48:43   either have a bad touch experience with controls that are too small and too close to each other,

01:48:48   or you could make everything bigger and make things worse for the users who don't want

01:48:54   to use touch or aren't using touch and are using a mouse pointer on the Mac. It's designed

01:48:58   as a position. I don't want to go too long about that, but I just feel like you're—I

01:49:05   just buy a MacBook if that's what you want.

01:49:06   Yeah. No.

01:49:07   Totally agree.

01:49:08   I don't get it.

01:49:09   Totally agree.

01:49:10   iPadOS. That's the one thing I want to talk to you about that I don't want to run out

01:49:15   of time on. I've been using it on my iPad since the keynote day.

01:49:20   Same.

01:49:21   I like it a lot. I really do. And I said it on my show with Craig and Jaws, but now a

01:49:27   couple of weeks later. It really is—and again, it's sort of like when we talked

01:49:32   an hour ago about how iOS feels safe and secure when you're installing apps. It's ineffable

01:49:41   in some ways. It's hard for me to describe, even though it's sort of my job to try to

01:49:44   write about user interface and stuff like that. It's hard to describe how and why

01:49:49   the multitasking now feels solid and knowable. You know, like how you could get up in the

01:49:55   middle of the night without your glasses on and your bedroom's dark and get to the bathroom

01:49:59   because you know where everything is, right? And all of a sudden you're in a hotel room

01:50:03   and it's like you're stubbing your toes. You're almost peeing in the closet because

01:50:07   that's the closet and the bathroom's on the other side. Even though it's new, it's

01:50:15   not familiar, it's designed in a way that encourages becoming familiar with it, in a

01:50:20   way that the old-style iPad multitasking never became familiar to me, never made sense, never

01:50:26   felt natural. I really, really like it and I'm impressed with it. And it's also not

01:50:33   by doing the thing that everybody—not everybody, but some people were saying that just make

01:50:39   it either just run macOS like you said, or just make the iPad just like macOS, which

01:50:45   would have no point.

01:50:46   Yeah, the thing that's interesting to me is like what I think the difference is now

01:50:49   is that it's predictable and it's considerate. And before, like even people whose job it

01:50:54   was to use an iPad, you would see them messing up on launching multitasking because you'd

01:50:59   touch that icon in the dock and maybe it would go into jiggle mode. Maybe you'd pull it

01:51:03   off the dock by accident. Maybe you would pull it into—maybe you wouldn't mean—maybe

01:51:08   you'd want to pull it off the dock and you'd pull it into multitasking. And there was just

01:51:11   no way, like it was beyond the realm of human reason that you'd get it exactly right all

01:51:16   the time. It was just completely overloaded. There were so many conflicts, so many collisions,

01:51:22   and that little change of putting that button there, of making it obvious, of just conceding

01:51:27   that you needed that affordance changed my entire feeling about it as well. Because now

01:51:32   I know there's that button. I can push it and every time it's going to do exactly

01:51:36   what I want it to do, and I can trust that it's going to do only that. And it's just—it's

01:51:41   removed all of the stress, the aggravation over multitasking. I think that by itself

01:51:46   is just a huge improvement.

01:51:49   I'll tell you this. I, for example, watched a couple of videos the last few days. I was

01:51:56   catching up. I had to catch up on yours. That's where I watched you and Kevin Lynch and Deidre.

01:52:02   Well, but I did it all on my iPad, and I had like iMessage over on the right and Notes

01:52:10   over on the right. I'd switch out. That's the sort of thing that was, to me, always

01:52:15   like, "Why can't I just easily replace this Notes or this iMessage window with Notes

01:52:21   because I want to take notes on René's video?" It just really felt way more like a "get

01:52:31   things done" OS. That's my point. And I even mentioned it in the interview. I just

01:52:37   love the detail now that you can finally, if you have a keyboard attached, just use

01:52:40   the arrow keys to move around the home screen, and you get a TVS-o-style selection around

01:52:46   an app, and then you hit return, and then you switch to the app. Honestly, that should

01:52:50   have worked before. It's, to me, inexcusable that they added keyboard support but didn't

01:52:57   make the keyboard a part of getting it done.

01:53:00   A lot of the last two years of iPad OS have felt like run out of time. They have all these

01:53:04   ideas and they just couldn't finish. They couldn't finish widgets. They couldn't

01:53:07   finish app library. They couldn't finish keyboard bindings. They couldn't finish.

01:53:10   And this year, given the focus and also how much time they can save now by making things

01:53:17   with things like SwiftUI that work on iPhone and iPad and don't require massive amounts

01:53:21   of recoding, I think this let them not just catch up but really personalize things for

01:53:25   the iPad better.

01:53:27   Yeah. My other high-level takeaway from the whole of WWDC is confirmation that I've

01:53:34   been right all along that SwiftUI is the future of Apple UI design and that Catalyst is some

01:53:41   kind of weird political stopgap that I still don't quite understand why it exists. Because

01:53:47   Catalyst wasn't mentioned once in the keynote.

01:53:50   Nope.

01:53:51   And there's not one new Catalyst app from Apple this year.

01:53:55   No, it's not Catalyst.

01:53:57   No, no. And Shortcuts, the one that would have been the most obvious candidate to make

01:54:02   Catalyst is not a Catalyst app. And Federighi called it out on my show that it's a—I

01:54:09   don't think he said real Mac app because he doesn't want to say—I forget what he

01:54:12   said actually, but it was clear that he meant it was AppKit. I think he even maybe used

01:54:16   the word AppKit.

01:54:17   Yeah, it's an AppKit app with SwiftUI.

01:54:19   It does have some weird things. It's like AppKit made by iOS developers. So I've been

01:54:24   playing with it. And it's like when you do a display alert in Shortcuts for Mac,

01:54:28   the alert is hideously ugly and incredibly wrong for the Mac. Hopefully that'll get—hopefully

01:54:33   that gets fixed before it ships. But that's pretty much it for my high-level takeaways.

01:54:38   Here's my last question to you. What do you think they're going to do next year for

01:54:42   WWDC? Remote again or in person like before?

01:54:47   So I don't know what they're going to do. My hope would be a hybrid approach because

01:54:51   I think that there's things they can do in terms of the speed and cadence and information

01:54:55   delivery of the recorded events that they just can't match. I guess, you know, nobody

01:55:00   laughs at Craig's dad jokes the way that they do when there's an audience there. But

01:55:04   just some of the presentations are so well done in this new environment that I hope they

01:55:10   bring a smaller amount of people maybe to WWDC. They have a much bigger focus on labs

01:55:15   at WWDC or the things that you really have to do in person. But they make the sessions

01:55:20   available in this style to everyone as fast as they possibly can. And they have whole

01:55:25   segments of things done. Like maybe, you know, Craig will come out or Tim will come out and

01:55:30   introduce something and then we'll see a video on it. And then they'll talk a little

01:55:33   bit and then we'll see another video on it. But I think they've made great advances

01:55:36   this year that I'd hate to see them lose completely. How about you?

01:55:40   I don't know. I kind of think they're going to go back to traditional in-person WWDC.

01:55:47   I think they like having 5,000 developers there. They like and know the advantages of

01:55:54   face-to-face collaboration for like, what do they call it when you get a session with

01:56:01   the labs? But does it change the way they do keynotes forever, even when they have 5,000

01:56:10   people packed into the convention center or a thousand of us packed into the Steve Jobs

01:56:15   theater? Does it change the percentage of stage presentation versus pre-recorded material?

01:56:23   Maybe.

01:56:24   And do they keep doing the WebEx or whatever they used so that people who can't make

01:56:28   it there also get some lab time, which I think would be huge.

01:56:34   I don't know about that though, because where's the bandwidth come from? You know,

01:56:37   the personal bandwidth come from, you know? So I don't know. I mean, because if you

01:56:42   can only fill up—if you only have so many engineers from Apple and they only have so

01:56:46   many hours, and if they all get filled up by the people who are there in person, where

01:56:52   do the people come from? So I don't know. I don't know. But maybe they do reserve

01:56:58   some because they understand though that there's a certain percentage who—lottery aside,

01:57:04   they don't need luck. They just can't travel to WWDC for cost reasons or whatever

01:57:09   other personal reasons there might be. I thought it was interesting that in my show, they both

01:57:15   had a sort of, "Yeah, we hope to see you next year," sort of thing. But that's

01:57:21   hard to read. That's not reading into how they're going to hold the conference, right?

01:57:25   Because assuming, you know, almost certainly that it'd be possible, you know, and even

01:57:32   if they didn't hold a virtual—even if they hold a virtual conference, I suspect

01:57:36   they'd definitely still invite lots of press. So I would still be out there anyway, and

01:57:42   I could still hold a live show, you know, in a theater, even if there's not an actual

01:57:47   in-person conference going by. My money is on the in-person conference again, with maybe

01:57:52   their keynotes are forever more brief segments on stage and longer segments that are pre-recorded.

01:58:00   That would be my bet. But I could see it going either way.

01:58:03   Yeah. So at no point during your interview, Jon, did Craig and Josh try to get you to

01:58:08   undo that second button?

01:58:10   [Laughter]

01:58:13   Nobody mentioned it, but I did notice. I did notice I was East Coast, one button undone,

01:58:20   and they were both West Coast, two buttons undone.

01:58:22   Yeah, a lot of peer pressure.

01:58:24   [Laughter]

01:58:25   All right. That is a tight show, René. That might be the shortest show you and I have ever

01:58:30   done.

01:58:31   I think so.

01:58:32   I think we covered a lot of it. Anyway, I'm going to send you to youtube.com/RenéRitchie,

01:58:40   René's extraordinary YouTube channel. And of course, you can follow him on Twitter @RenéRitchie.

01:58:46   Talk to you next time.

01:58:48   Sure.

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