The Talk Show

315: ‘I Don’t Know How to Read’, With Joanna Stern


00:00:00   Let's just get right into it. I feel like you're gonna give me an earful about Skype.

00:00:03   I don't know. I just feel like who uses Skype anymore?

00:00:09   You know, I had a friend just text me yesterday, and he had like a link to somebody who's...

00:00:19   It's just like a random tweet that was just like, you know, it's kind of hard to believe that Skype

00:00:23   dropped the ball on video conferencing because they had such a huge lead. And I think that's so

00:00:29   true. Because when Skype was new, the fidelity and latency, low latency, were just game-changing.

00:00:40   Honestly, I mean, I don't know how in the early days of me podcasting, because I have been

00:00:45   podcasting relatively long for the industry, like my old talk show with Dan Benjamin. I think we

00:00:52   were doing that in 2007. I think we... You basically invented podcasting.

00:00:58   I would never claim that because then Dave Weiner will get angry at me. And I do not want Dave

00:01:03   Weiner, of all people, angry at me. He invented podcasting. Let's just say that. But Skype,

00:01:09   really made it possible in a way for remote, you know. And I don't know anybody who lives near me

00:01:16   who I want to podcast with, so it had to be remote. 100%. So here's a couple of fun facts

00:01:22   about Skype. One, I got my start in tech working at a PR agency on the Skype client. So I was

00:01:30   very interested in Skype, and I was very interested in the hardware that Skype was

00:01:35   like sort of partnering with. And so my job was to pitch tech journalists on covering these like

00:01:42   new mics and webcams. And I realized when I was doing that, that this is not a good job for me.

00:01:48   I would rather be reviewing these types of things. That's fun fact number one. Number two is I wrote

00:01:53   a column this week about how we actually should be cutting back on video calls, like that nonstop

00:01:58   video calling has to stop. And it was about audio calls, right? Like that makes sense. Like we should

00:02:03   just make audio calls before the... When I called the pre-pandemic era, we just made calls. We would

00:02:09   just be like, "Hey, did you have a second? Can I give you a call?" We didn't say like, "Can I give

00:02:12   you a video call?" Anyway, I got in touch with Skype, or I reached out to Microsoft to get in

00:02:18   touch with Skype. And nobody wanted to talk about Skype. Like, they were like, "Hey, have you heard

00:02:25   of Microsoft Teams?" They didn't say that. But like, you know, they were like, "Here's all the

00:02:29   new features in Microsoft Teams." And it's like, but any stats on Skype and people using Skype for

00:02:35   just audio calls is like radio silence. No one wants to talk about Skype.

00:02:40   Dave: I totally agree about the video call thing. And I will also admit, though, that I'm in a

00:02:47   position of extraordinary privilege, because I would say as someone who does their entire job

00:02:55   typing at a computer, I have probably had the fewest minutes on video calls of anybody I know

00:03:04   in the last 14 months. Because...

00:03:05   Stephanie: I want to change your sentence from before, which is I'm extremely privileged not to

00:03:09   work with so many people. I'm privileged to work alone.

00:03:13   Dave I don't work with anybody, which is...

00:03:15   Stephanie It is a privilege, I have to say.

00:03:17   Dave You know, it can be a pain when it's a bunch of chores and stuff I don't want to do. And it's

00:03:22   like, well, there's nobody else to do it. So guess who's, you know, emailing sponsors about bugging

00:03:27   them for assets and blah, blah, blah. And it's, you know, but no video calls. And I have friends,

00:03:33   you know, everybody, I mean, everybody's on video calls, but I have friends and and I think the same

00:03:37   thing now I have had, and always do have, I do have a fair amount of phone calls, you know, you

00:03:44   got to talk on the phone, I find a phone call so much less stressful than a video call. I really do.

00:03:49   Stephanie Same. And I and I pointed all these things out in the piece, especially like,

00:03:53   I feel like right now, and I tried to make this point in the in the column, which is that it's

00:04:00   like zooms are exhausting. And so the best like it's sort of like the leftovers, the table scraps

00:04:05   that are leftovers, like, okay, do an audio call. There's all these reasons and audio calls actually

00:04:10   can be better than a video call. And we don't really think about those. I mean, for me,

00:04:14   the biggest one is like, I can get up and walk around.

00:04:17   Dave Exactly. And you, you can do some silly, stupid stuff that it doesn't mean you're not

00:04:25   paying attention, but you can just sort of, you know, I don't know, like, if you just need to

00:04:30   carry something from one room to another, you can do it while you're on an audio call, you know,

00:04:36   you just need to the kid left something out in the living room, let me just take it into the kitchen,

00:04:40   you know, put it on the counter.

00:04:41   Stephanie Right. And you can like motion to everyone, like be quiet, I'm on the phone,

00:04:44   you know, like you can't you can't do that in the video call. Anyway, I, I love video calling,

00:04:49   FaceTime and all other video calling is amazing. And I talked about that in the piece. But because

00:04:55   like, we don't need to do it all the time.

00:04:56   Dave Yeah. The other thing about Skype versus Zoom and the headstart Skype had and should have been

00:05:01   able to keep technically is to me, and it's a little thing, but it's the sort of little thing

00:05:06   that really bothers me. Skype is a much better name than Zoom. I guess you're not zooming

00:05:13   anything. Whereas Skype is a made up name. And it's a great made up name. It rolls off the tongue.

00:05:19   It's good for a verb, you know, let's Skype over this. And, and anyway,

00:05:26   Stephanie I feel like it even because I feel like we've gone through these phases of it becoming the

00:05:30   verb, right? Like, Skype was like, oh, we should get together and Skype right, like with early days

00:05:35   of video calling it was Skype. But then FaceTime came along. And I feel like most people were like,

00:05:40   if you had an iPhone, let's FaceTime. Or have you and at least in my house, too, when we had a kid,

00:05:46   everyone wanted to FaceTime with us, right? It just became the default. And then through the

00:05:51   pandemic, Zoom became the default because it was this group feature. I think that Zoom really

00:05:55   marketed the grid and the like, I mean, it feels like almost they like invented it, but we know

00:06:02   they didn't the group the grid, right? The just like, hey, everyone lives in a box. And this is

00:06:07   the best way to see everybody. It's, it's always makes me think of the Brady Bunch. But it's like,

00:06:12   well, what if the Brady Bunch weren't a bunch of kids? It was a bunch of colleagues and peers. And

00:06:19   also, there are 20 of you, instead of nine. But it always looks like the opening to the Brady Bunch

00:06:25   to me and people are looking around and everybody, you know, most of the people are poorly lit,

00:06:30   because they're lit by a laptop screen. And most of them, people in my circles, have

00:06:37   MacBooks with shit cameras, and the angles bad because the laptops down at their desk. And so

00:06:43   it's just like, there was unflattering. They look craptastic, right? Was that it? Craptastic?

00:06:48   Yeah, craptacular. Right, every time I can't, I can't. Now I can't remember which one's mine

00:06:54   and which one's yours. This was our last podcast. Well, they're both good words.

00:06:59   You know what we should do here? Just lift the old podcast and like paste it in here. No one's

00:07:02   going to know the difference. What do you think, while we're on it, this is not on my list. I don't

00:07:09   really have much of a list, but because I figured we'd just go off on tangents like this. Now that

00:07:15   we're pulling out of this, and you know, we've gone through this year plus of the pandemic.

00:07:24   What about FaceTime? Like, it's kind of conspicuous now that it's over that FaceTime

00:07:34   really had no role in anybody's professional. And I'm, of all people know, lots of people who

00:07:40   their entire circle is all on Apple platforms. So the fact that FaceTime is Apple only isn't even

00:07:46   relevant to this. Even if you wanted to say that, even people I know who are Apple only don't use

00:07:51   FaceTime for professional video context. Well, I think a couple things. I think for

00:07:57   professional use, I totally agree. And also, like a couple of colleagues that I work with who don't

00:08:04   have great cell service will like FaceTime audio. And in fact, in this column, I said,

00:08:09   I think FaceTime audio is just the superior audio quality. It's, if you get two really good FaceTime

00:08:16   audio connections, it's superior. You're like, are you in the room with me? Like it is, it is a crazy

00:08:22   good quality. So I do that with some colleagues that, you know, either are upstate and living

00:08:27   in places that they're just don't have the best service, cellular service. But for sure,

00:08:35   during the pandemic, a lot of our personal contact, you know, especially the first number

00:08:40   of months where we couldn't see my parents, we were pretty much always on FaceTime. And I'm sure

00:08:45   that Apple saw just crazy surges in that personal type of usage of FaceTime.

00:08:51   Yeah, yeah, that is true. And I can actually verify that from some folks I know at Apple,

00:08:55   that FaceTime usage spiked early, and stayed crazy high. And, you know, it felt like a feather in

00:09:03   their cap, like, hey, we always hoped we would be able to handle a level like what we're seeing,

00:09:10   but we are handling it. And it all just seems to work. And nobody really thinks about it. And we

00:09:15   feel good about it. So FaceTime as a personal thing, talking to parents, you know, that sort

00:09:21   of thing, talking to just people you would normally have seen, but you couldn't see,

00:09:25   because we were in our, what do we call them? Cocoons, our pods, you know,

00:09:29   it worked great for that. And that is what it was designed for. And I think talking to some people

00:09:37   at Apple, they're like, well, FaceTime just was never designed as a business tool. And, you know,

00:09:43   it still isn't, you know, we just didn't do it.

00:09:46   It might be interesting to see what they do with the Mac app in the future. I think, also,

00:09:51   it's so clear. I mean, this is just such a funny thing about the Mac app. And I'm sure you've

00:09:55   thought about it. It's just like it defaults to the vertical view. Yes. It looks like the like,

00:10:02   phone app was just put on the Mac. The group FaceTime still basically sucks. They've done

00:10:09   some things through the pandemic, they believe iOS 13.5, where they fixed some things for group

00:10:16   FaceTime. And then in 14, they changed the like, you know, the bubble resizing, which was

00:10:22   kind of a mess. But still not great. Right? Like, maybe something we see at W3C, I would assume.

00:10:29   Yeah, something related. Yeah, because I think that the original group FaceTime implementation

00:10:34   was technically impressive, you know, and it was a lot of people, right? Right.

00:10:39   A lot of people, I think up to like 27 or something. Yeah. And I remember, I think I

00:10:43   remember like, my tweet was something snarky. Like, I don't know, 27 people. So this is,

00:10:46   you know, that's nice. But like, little, little before the pandemic, did we know like,

00:10:51   we would actually ever want a group, you know, video call with that many people.

00:10:54   The implementation was like, too cute by far, though, with all of the way that people were

00:11:00   moving around based on who's talking and it was like, I don't know, like it was purposefully

00:11:08   trying to keep you confused as to which person was where because every time somebody talks,

00:11:15   and then I think they kind of realized, like it looked cool in a demo, it was sort of like a UI

00:11:20   that worked best on stage in the demo where they unveiled it. And it's like, in practice,

00:11:26   now you kind of want something simpler and more stable. Where if Joanna is in the lower left

00:11:33   corner, she stays in the lower left corner. You don't want her booping and bopping around the

00:11:38   screen. Totally. And I think they, the improvements on Mac, I think can go hand in hand with the

00:11:46   improvements in the webcam stuff, too. I mean, it's, you know, if there's some tie in there

00:11:50   with the improvements in quality, and I mean, you've, are you still using the iMac?

00:11:56   I am. But I've never really, I'm not using it as my full time machine. I have it set up. And I set

00:12:06   it up in Amy's sort of, I wouldn't call it an office, but like her little private room where

00:12:12   she can have stuff because she had like a nice orange desk, and I got an orange iMac, and it

00:12:16   looked really nice there. And she wanted to try it. She hasn't had an iMac in years. She's been

00:12:20   like on the MacBook Pro style since we moved to a new house, like four or five years ago,

00:12:25   and has been thinking for years that she should get an iMac for her little room upstairs. And

00:12:32   I was like, you should wait. Because it's like one of those things where it's like,

00:12:37   how can I have gotten this old and not realize that, you know what, if you need a computer,

00:12:42   buy a computer, stop thinking about the future, you're gonna wait forever. Like, because I thought

00:12:46   like four or five years ago, Apple Silicon Macs were coming 2018, you know, like, this is gonna

00:12:53   happen because I know they're frustrated with Intel. And I know their iPhone chips are already

00:12:58   benchmarking faster than MacBook Pro chips. So this is gonna happen. And then, you know,

00:13:02   we had to wait till last year. What year did you tell her to wait in? Like 2010? I don't know. I

00:13:07   didn't have any gray hair at the time. So it was a long time. I don't know. Yeah, probably. No,

00:13:11   I would say like five years ago or something like that. Oh, so we've got it up there. And,

00:13:16   you know, and it is it's one of those things that that it stuck out to me, I didn't put it in my

00:13:20   review. But it still is one of those like, hmm, why I get it with the iPhone, but the iPad and I

00:13:28   know it's this is like one of the most common requests is how come on the Mac, you can set up

00:13:33   two user accounts, and it they make it really easy to switch between them. And on the iPad,

00:13:38   you can't like you can't just say this is a family iPad. And here's an account for one of your kids.

00:13:44   Here's an account for another kid. Here's an account for the parents. It's a weird

00:13:50   limitation of iPad because I know that people have, you know, iPads they want to share with

00:13:56   their kids. And setting up the iMac where she had an account and she could use it and give me

00:14:01   her thoughts on on how to use it. And then I could set it up and use it. It's like, wow,

00:14:06   I wish I could do this with iPads. Well, yeah, I think so I'm using it right now. And I you know,

00:14:13   I'm like, world's number one laptop user kind of hate desktops. And I, I really like it. I mean,

00:14:20   that was kind of my review, which is like, this could make me a desktop person. But there's too

00:14:25   many things that I love about the flexibility of a laptop to really do this. So my ultimate thing was

00:14:30   like, just give me this screen. And I buy that in a second from Apple. But back to the webcam,

00:14:35   the webcam on it is amazing. Yeah, it really is. It's just so much better. And so that's one of the

00:14:41   reasons I've kept it around back to the video calling thing. I still do video calls for

00:14:46   important calls. And I do it for TV too. This thing looks like I don't really have to set up

00:14:51   the iPhone and this whole like system I had for for CNBC. I don't do that anymore. I've just been

00:14:56   used iMac. So the camera here is really good. But again, the FaceTime is like FaceTime.

00:15:03   All right. So let's do it. Let's do iMac first. The camera to me, it was it was clearly it was like

00:15:13   step one was with these M1 MacBooks last November. And it was it's literally I believe if you go to

00:15:21   like iFixit, the camera is literally the same physical component as on the Intel MacBooks from

00:15:28   before, which is a real piece of crap 720p with a tiny sensor that is terrible with light. And I

00:15:36   believe you had had some comments on the old MacBook keyboards over the years. And with the

00:15:42   M1, they have the same crappy camera, but piping it through the M1's image signal processing,

00:15:48   they really cleaned it up and made it a lot more useful and famously or at least famously between

00:15:54   me and you. I used it to go on CNBC with you when the M1 MacBooks were new. And and it created a

00:16:01   kerfuffle because people thought my my, my footage looked better than yours. But

00:16:05   it's true. I'm still living that down. But

00:16:08   but it was improved, but it still wasn't great. That's the main thing. It's still it's like they

00:16:16   cleaned up the noise and the color and definitely we're doing something to realize that hey,

00:16:22   the only thing that really matters are people's faces in front of this thing. And clearly their

00:16:27   image signal processing was optimized for that. But it still was kind of muddy, right? In terms of

00:16:33   it just was still really crappy. I mean, even in the comparisons I did of the 13 image MacBook Pro

00:16:40   and this new iMac. It's like, yeah, it's like looking at a, like a blurry photo. You know what

00:16:47   it's like? Remember when photos would you use like AOL and they would like take a while to load and

00:16:52   they would be super blurry and then they'd come into focus? Yeah, yeah. Progressive progressive

00:16:57   JPEGs, right? Yes, exactly. That's it. That's what the webcams are like. Yeah, like this new iMac,

00:17:03   everything is so clear. Like you can make out what's in the background, which is a bad thing

00:17:08   for me because it means I have to clean my office. Like it's, it's substantially improved. And to your

00:17:13   point, I didn't get to compare it. I don't know if you did. Well, it doesn't sound like you did. But

00:17:17   they use the same camera hardware, the same 1080p module in this new 24 inch iMac, then as they used

00:17:25   in the 27 inch iMac from last year. No, I didn't know that. Yeah. And I mean, I didn't get to do

00:17:32   side by sides. But I don't know, I just felt like this new 24 inch iMac is just one of the best.

00:17:37   Yeah, webcams period that I've seen. Yeah, that's what was my question for you is how do you think

00:17:43   it compares as somebody who's done much more comparisons on this stuff. So it's clearly the

00:17:47   best built in camera Apple's ever shipped the combination of actually better 1080p camera

00:17:54   hardware with the M1 image processing. Now you've got two things that are better, better hardware

00:17:58   and better image processing. But how does it compare to like a the the standalone webcams that

00:18:07   people have been desperately fighting in the black market for over the last year because they're

00:18:12   all sold out? I mean, it compares pretty well to a Logitech, a Logitech 1080p webcam that I have,

00:18:20   I would, I don't have one of the 4k ones, I not gone down that far. But and I don't even use the

00:18:27   Logitech one usually when I set up I really like to use the I use the I use an iPhone a lot of times

00:18:34   when I'm like doing an actual hit because I'm like, okay, I have the flexibility of the three

00:18:38   lenses. I use that camo software, which is great and just hook it up. It's I mean, it's a little

00:18:43   bit clunky the whole experience, but it works. And definitely compared to any built in laptop that

00:18:50   I've tested, it's way better. And that's, you know, has to do with Windows and Chromebooks. And

00:18:56   I mean, definitely Macs. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think about the chin on the iMac? Because that

00:19:03   seems to be like I was skeptical and I wrote in my review that I was anticipating that new iMacs

00:19:11   would just get rid of this chin, because they wouldn't need it, they could just put the computer

00:19:14   behind the display. I just didn't think they would try to make the whole thing so crazy thin. And

00:19:22   then I you know, it's like, Oh, well, now we have this chin. And it's I don't know what that's going

00:19:27   to look like. And then once I had it set up, and I was in front of it, the chin just disappears. I

00:19:32   honestly and some people complained like, Oh, you know, it's, you're just saying that because you

00:19:38   don't want to say bad things about Apple products. Like, No, I love to say bad things about Apple

00:19:42   products. I just I'm telling you that when I use the iMac, I the chin just disappears for me and I

00:19:47   don't notice it. I it was like to your point, I was jarring at first when I took it out of the box.

00:19:55   I was like, I did not notice this during the presentation. I'm just like, Ew, right? Like,

00:20:00   I was kind of like, Ew, I don't know why this is there. Over time, I think I was more upset. And

00:20:04   I said this in the review. I like the colors of the back much better than this pastel color of

00:20:11   the chin. Yeah. And that was like, I just don't I mean, maybe I don't like pastels. I think in my

00:20:18   review, I called them sort of bridesmaid dress colors. That's so true. Like, and maybe from like

00:20:24   the 70s, like 70s 1970s. And then like, I was telling you, like, the other thing is I have the

00:20:31   blue one. And like, it looks like I've like got a baby boy's baby shower all the time. Like, it's

00:20:38   just blue and white and the white. To me, I was more I know why they did the white bezel. I get

00:20:45   it like walls are white and it blends in. But I'm just so used to like a sleek black frame around a

00:20:52   really beautiful screen. So I look I'm fine with the chin. I definitely gave them. Yeah, I wrote

00:20:59   about that a little bit and mentioned it in the video. Actually, in the video on that part,

00:21:04   because I was comparing it to the the G3 Mac, and I pulled a quote from Steve Jobs when he was

00:21:09   introducing the first one, where he said, the front of the or the back of this one looks better than

00:21:14   the other guys, which the other guys were PCs at the time. But you know, in this context, I feel

00:21:19   like the back of this iMac looks better than the front of it. Yeah, no, that was the quote is that

00:21:23   Jobs said that the back of the iMac looks better than the front of the other guys PCs. You know,

00:21:28   that. Yeah, that's the exact quote. Yeah. You know what, that's a good point, though. And, and

00:21:33   my wife had the same observation. And that, that in her setup, if she were to buy one, and she would

00:21:41   get the orange, she really likes it. And like I said, she has this orange desk, it would be perfect.

00:21:47   But like she said, the best part of the orange is the back and in her setup, which I think is

00:21:53   probably a, you know, the most common setup, it's it's effectively against the wall. So you

00:21:59   kind of never see it. So I know and Apple had all these demos of like, well, you could set it up as

00:22:05   a retail kiosk, or like, you know, like, if you're checking in to a doctor's appointment, or a salon

00:22:15   or something, and the person that the check in has an iMac as their, their thing, then you use,

00:22:21   you the customer see the back, right. And there are definitely places where you see the back of

00:22:26   a display. But not in typical home scenarios, right. And there's also there's the you're

00:22:33   working in an office, like an open office space, and like all the monitors are lined up. Right?

00:22:38   Yeah, I mean, that same as me, like I'm sitting against the, like a wall in my office, and I'm

00:22:42   staring at the baby boy blue, baby shower, right. And let's just say like, purple is your favorite

00:22:49   color. And you're so excited, because now Apple, you know, after 20 years has gone back and made

00:22:55   like a really awesome purple, not like a little purple, but like, you know, Minnesota Vikings,

00:23:01   capital P purple iMac. And you set it up in your desk is putting it up against the wall,

00:23:08   and you never get to see, you never get to see the purple, you get to see this sort of lavender that

00:23:13   looks like a sweetheart or something. What's the deal with the purple, John? Like, what's Come on,

00:23:18   like, they released this purple iPhone and the world goes crazy. Am I missing something?

00:23:23   All right, here's what I think. And I'm you're asking. I think as an observer, I'm right. But

00:23:29   as somebody who could have picked the color, I would have been wrong. Is that there's, there's

00:23:34   like a trendiness and colors. And Apple has like a team who are like, trend spotters who either are

00:23:44   helping to define the colors of the year, or have like their finger on the pulse of fashion and

00:23:51   style and and trends and pick it out. But there is somebody and somebody told me this when they

00:23:56   announced it when they announced that purple phone, they're like, this thing's gonna sell

00:23:58   like crazy. And I'm like, it looks cool. But what do you mean? They're like, oh, purple's the color

00:24:02   of 2021. And I'm like, it is. And they're like, yeah, yeah. And this was the thing, like, I

00:24:08   couldn't believe the coverage of it. Like, I just couldn't. And I was like, this is what's wrong

00:24:13   with media. Yeah. So it's a color. So I got a haircut yesterday. And my stylist asked me,

00:24:21   she knows what I do. You know, she's not a nerd. But she asked me about, you know, what are the

00:24:25   what are the cool new features of the new iPhone? And I'm like, well, there's not really a new

00:24:29   iPhone. She goes, Yeah, there is. And she couldn't believe I didn't know it. And she goes, the purple

00:24:32   one. And I'm like, well, but that's but that, you know, like, she knew about the one she knew about

00:24:38   the ads, the crazy ads for the purple one. Yeah. And she just assumed it meant it was new and had

00:24:44   cool features and stuff. And she thought, and she even said, I think I'm getting that one.

00:24:50   And I was amazing. Yeah. I mean, this is like the Apple marketing machine is just amazing when you

00:24:54   think about it that way. Yeah. And they were all over the rose gold thing early a couple years ago,

00:25:00   you know, that. Oh, yeah. And now that rose gold is gone. It's out. It's out. I wrote it into a

00:25:06   script for my piece for next week, actually. And I was like, I'm not sure this is gonna land. Like,

00:25:11   I'm not sure like people remember rose. I mean, they remember it, but like, it's not in the,

00:25:15   it was a thing. Well, and like, just like the gold iPhone was the first like a thing.

00:25:21   And the other factor is that it's like t minus five, four, three, until Samsung comes out with

00:25:28   a purple phone. Yeah. It's true. Well, I've always been like fascinated by like the colors,

00:25:34   because it seems like it's always a marketing thing. But like you said, very, very specific

00:25:43   and carefully selected. And for people that are listening, we go to these briefings where truly

00:25:50   they talk about the colors of the phone sometimes I'm not even just talking about Apple here,

00:25:53   Samsung, other gadget makers, as if it was a science and the engineering and like the

00:26:02   development of the color is as important as some other new feature. I remember very specifically,

00:26:10   I don't go to lots of briefings for non Apple stuff. But I was at I was I went up to New York

00:26:16   a couple of years ago for a pixel thing with Google. And it was I really enjoyed being there.

00:26:24   It was I don't know if you were there. You must have been there because it was New York. Maybe

00:26:28   we even had lunch afterwards. I don't know. But it was the one where they had the basketball hoop

00:26:32   in inside. Do you remember that? I think I went to that they had this weird loft space and they

00:26:37   had a basketball hoop and they wanted to it was like for something about testing one of their

00:26:44   products for fitness or something. And I was like, hey, basketball is the only sport I'm

00:26:49   any good at I can do and they're like, oh, you're too late. It was already it's over because

00:26:53   somebody got hurt. And they stopped letting people shoot the hoops. And I was like, Oh, come on. I

00:27:00   was like, let me shoot a couple free throws. They're like, No, no, no, that's close. But they'd

00:27:04   spent so much time talking about the color of the side button on the Pixel phones. Right? Yeah. It

00:27:10   was like talking about the specific shade of orange, peach and and this like 500 words about

00:27:19   it. And it's like, I do think it looks kind of cool. And it's an unique look to just have this

00:27:23   like pop orange on a white and otherwise like white and black phone. But you know, it's just

00:27:30   orange, right? Right. And then they got things like oh, so orange and or I don't know if that's

00:27:35   what that one was called. Yeah, but age and but this is like, that's Google. But like, Samsung's

00:27:41   like, I don't want to say 10 times worse, but worse like they they also will talk to you for

00:27:48   a long time about the color options. All right, let me take a break and thank our first sponsor

00:27:55   got it. I got it. Got to get going on the business aspect. Oh, I love this sponsor. This is great.

00:27:59   They sponsored my website last week. They're sponsoring the podcast now. It's it's a game

00:28:05   called song pop party. It is the biggest music trivia game in the world and it is now

00:28:11   on Apple Arcade. It is in fact, the new song pop party is exclusive to Apple Arcade. Basically,

00:28:19   it's a bit like name that tune where if you want to play against people, it starts playing a song

00:28:25   and you have like a list of four options of like, oh, who's the artist and the first person to tap

00:28:30   the correct artist is the winner of that round. They have 10s of 1000s of songs and you have to

00:28:37   guess as fast as you can. But it's the real songs. These aren't like samples or like covers like

00:28:44   it's the real songs. They've got the rights to the legit hits. And they've got new stuff. I've played

00:28:51   we played over the weekend because I like to test the sponsor stuff. I don't know any new music.

00:28:55   I don't. The one I got what I got right was john legend and I didn't know the song. I just know his

00:29:00   voice and I but I'm really bad with that. But if you get me going on the 80s, I can I can compete

00:29:07   pretty well. So they've got like a library that really, really works depending on whether you

00:29:11   want new music or you want to go to the 70s or the 80s or the 90s or something like that.

00:29:16   They've got all I mean, literally 10s of 1000s of songs, they've got all the genres who

00:29:20   you want rock, hip hop country, 80s, everything you want. You can play solo,

00:29:26   or arena mode against strangers online randos. Or it the best mode, the one where it really shines

00:29:35   is in party mode, you can play up to eight people in the same room. For example, and because it's an

00:29:41   Apple Arcade game, Mac, iPhone, iPad, and Apple TV. And this is where like Apple TV is a game

00:29:48   thing is really awesome. And you can even play with the Siri remote, including the new one.

00:29:54   The old one, I guess works, but we I don't know, I think everybody threw their old Siri remotes

00:30:00   in the garbage. Anyway, every platform, it is native on the M one on the Mac. It also works on

00:30:07   the old Intel Macs, your Apple TV, everything syncs automatically. So you can take a game

00:30:12   from one Apple device to another. And because it's on Apple Arcade, there are no ads, no in app

00:30:19   purchases, never asks for an email never asks you to sign in, never tracks anything. There's no data

00:30:27   collection at all. Apple. Let's and I maybe they even demand it. But Apple lets game developers

00:30:34   for Apple Arcade gather zero metrics and data about you. It's a privacy first. I don't even

00:30:40   have a URL to tell you because it's Apple Arcade exclusive. If you already have Apple Arcade,

00:30:45   or you subscribe to Apple one, you can just go to the App Store and download sound song pop party.

00:30:50   And if you don't, you could if you really want to try it, you could sign up for a demo of Apple

00:30:56   Arcade or Apple one and get it there. But if you do have Apple Arcade access already, it's a no

00:31:02   brainer to try this if you have any interest in a fun party game. It's a lot of fun and really well

00:31:07   done the poly, you know, it's polished and looks great and everything like that. So my thanks to

00:31:11   song pop party get it on Apple Arcade. What I love that that's the name of the app and they

00:31:19   you have to say it so many times song pop party. It's a good day. Good job. It's a good job. It's

00:31:24   a good name. What else about the iMac? I what do you think of the keyboard?

00:31:34   I like the keyboard. I mean, I love the fingerprint sensor. It's loud. You know,

00:31:38   one thing I realized is like, I can talk. Well, I can type quieter on my MacBook Pro keyboard.

00:31:45   Now, then I can on what is this the magic keyboard? Extern and they're both called magic keyboards. I

00:31:52   don't know. It's a branding thing at this point. Everything's a magic keyboard. It's a magic

00:31:57   keyboard. Yeah. That's my biggest complaint. I love the like feedback. And I've actually like,

00:32:02   really, I I've now gotten used to the desktop setup. So the fact that I have the I've been

00:32:08   using the trackpad, the magic trackpad and the keyboard and I like it, you know, I miss a lot

00:32:14   about my laptop setup, but I like it. It's just loud. They did give us the I assume every reviewer

00:32:21   got the same kit. They gave us both the mouse and the trackpad. And it's funny because I've gone

00:32:27   laptop only over the last few years to for various reasons. And I used to be a diehard mouse person

00:32:38   on the on the desktop, if I had a desktop setup, and I have to say that it's like I finally have

00:32:45   been laptop only long enough where a mouse feels a little weird to me.

00:32:48   I agree. I did go through this thing a couple of weeks ago where I tried to,

00:32:55   well, I didn't try I need to convert myself from just sitting at laptop and with a big monitor

00:33:01   to a more of a desktop setting because it's just really bad for my back. And I feel like

00:33:07   ergonomically, it's been bad for me because I've been sitting at this desk for so long.

00:33:10   So I already was trying to move to a keyboard accessory and external mouse. And I don't know,

00:33:19   I was using a Logitech mouse. I like, like, I mean, there's a lot of things about the magic

00:33:24   mouse that I just don't like. But there are certain times I'm like, this just feels nice

00:33:28   to push this mouse around. It is a it's a very opinionated mouse. And I know everybody loves

00:33:33   to complain about the lightning hole on the bottom. And I did I did I really made a thing

00:33:39   about it. It is goofy. I know. I know it is. But my my defense of it is you can't make a mouse the

00:33:48   shape that it is with an exposed lightning port, you'd have to make an all new mouse now.

00:33:54   They could make maybe that's the answer. They should make a whole new mouse in a different

00:33:58   shape. They should make a whole new mouse like like for example, as we'll get to, you know,

00:34:02   in a bit, they they did a little bit more than just tweak the Apple TV remote, they made an all

00:34:08   new remote. But that's if somebody at Apple really thinks this shape and fundamental design where the

00:34:16   clickable area goes all the way down to the tabletop, there's no room for a lightning thing.

00:34:21   And I also subsequently think that they really don't want I don't know why I don't think they

00:34:27   want people using the mouse plugged in for some reason. And it doesn't take long. I it is weird,

00:34:33   though. And yeah, I agree with you. They don't want you using the mouse plugged in. And I

00:34:37   complained about it. And I, you know, made some jokes about it in the video. I think for me,

00:34:41   it's just I, the net, the mouse is so narrow and flat that for me, I just, I like the,

00:34:49   how do I say this in a way that doesn't sound bad? The

00:34:52   I want to use the word girth, but I don't want to put this in the sentence because I think it's just

00:34:58   going to come out really bad. It demands a certain mouse grip. Right? Yes. Yeah. Yes. And that feels

00:35:08   good. Like when you have a mouse that is like you are actually holding this thing is so flat.

00:35:13   Yeah. And so my son is, you know, is in the gaming PCs and has a couple of mice now,

00:35:20   I guess a couple of them from Razer. And the Razer ones are the gaming mice seem to be more

00:35:28   like how I traditionally grip a mouse. And I have they still giant. Yeah, they're, well,

00:35:33   they're not giant giant. Like, I feel like there was a time like when

00:35:41   there was like a long time when when the debate was, hey, Apple mice only have one button and

00:35:46   PC mice have two buttons and a scroll wheel. And that's better. And it's better to just get one of

00:35:52   the PC mice and plug it in your Mac, because the Mac will recognize you and blah, blah, blah,

00:35:57   two buttons versus one button. And then all of a sudden, the world went to like 10 button mice for

00:36:02   power users and gamers. And they got enormous. You know, it's like, yeah, that's what I'm asking.

00:36:07   Because I remember when I was doing laptop PCs and desktop PCs reviews, I would get all these

00:36:13   accessories and the mice were huge. And they had all these programmable buttons. And you know,

00:36:19   also, they were also awesome, because they would like turn different colors and stuff, but I never

00:36:23   could remember which one to use. And they were huge. They would just like take up half the desk,

00:36:27   like the half the mouse pad was the mouse. Yeah, but you know, and Jonas is only, you know,

00:36:32   you got I'm gonna say only and you're gonna go I can't believe he's that old, but he's only 17. So

00:36:36   he's still his his mind is still fluid. And he's, he's easily adaptable to to new things. But even

00:36:45   he thought when I had him try the iMac, he thought that the that the that the Apple mouse, it just is

00:36:50   not compatible with the way he wants to grip a mouse. And every time he tried to use it, it

00:36:54   it's like this is just so weird to grip. And it's clicking when he doesn't want to click and stuff

00:37:00   like that. But I know some people love it. I don't know I've gotten full trackpad though. And the

00:37:04   other thing for me is that for me, a mouse is always better if you have to drag long distances,

00:37:11   right? Like the trackpad, the downside to the trackpad lifestyle is if you want to drag like

00:37:15   a file in the finder from the upper, upper left all the way to the trash can in the bottom right,

00:37:22   and it's like, I've run out of space on the trackpad, what do I do? It's like it never

00:37:27   happens with the mouse. And when I was doing graphic design work, either full time or,

00:37:31   you know, large part of my my daily life, years ago, I would have never ever wanted to use a

00:37:37   trackpad. I'd want a mouse because it's like you're dragging things corner to corner all the

00:37:42   time and with more, more precision, but for what I'm doing writing and just clicking between tabs.

00:37:47   It's like my mind just goes to a trackpad. Yeah, same. It's funny, I went to go interview a guy

00:37:54   a couple months ago, he was, I did this piece on vaccines. And anyway, ended up in this guy's house

00:37:58   who was booking all of these vaccines for elderly people. And he had two IMAX and he had, I think it

00:38:04   was probably like, I want to say like three or four magic mice on his desk. And I asked him,

00:38:11   I was like, what's going on? Like, why do you need these? He's like, I mean, this guy's a programmer

00:38:16   engineer, he just was always at his desk. And he's like, well, when one dies, I just swap the

00:38:20   batteries or I'm charging and I have another one. And I was like, Oh, okay. And yeah, he had like,

00:38:28   I mean, he was a big sort of, he was very organized, very organized about everything

00:38:33   you did. And I mean, did amazing things. I think he ended up booking a couple 1000 appointments for

00:38:37   people getting vaccines sort of amazing. I do think and I said this on my show last week with

00:38:43   Marco Arment, like, I don't want to throw Johnny Ive under the bus, but they're and you never know,

00:38:49   because Apple doesn't explain who decided what it's always Apple did this, but it does seem

00:38:55   post Johnny Ive. And if you figure that they're on, you know, 12 to 18 month look ahead cycles

00:39:03   for everything they're building. It just seems though, that now that Johnny Ive has been out

00:39:10   of Apple for a few years, we're starting to see maybe some of the things that he was hung up on.

00:39:18   And now that I'm going to say like the Apple TV remote is a Johnny Ive ism. And now they've gone

00:39:26   back. So it was on my mind when they you know, when it was clear that they were doing new IMAX,

00:39:33   like, I wonder if they're going to redo the mouse is this mouse shape a Johnny Ive thing where he's

00:39:39   like, you know, you don't have to charge it. It's so light and airy. And you know, it's it just,

00:39:45   you know, this top surface forms, you know, molds into the tabletop. It was that, or, you know,

00:39:53   this would have been an opportunity for a new mouse shape. And nope.

00:39:57   Marie-Claire Well, yeah, and I would say the same of the keyboard, though, like, you know, for when

00:40:01   you look at the keyboards, like, okay, they lifted the touch ID from the iPhone, what, eight, and

00:40:07   just put it in the corner. And then they changed the color. So they did some changes here.

00:40:12   Johnny The keyboard is definitely new. The mouse is just a new color of aluminum.

00:40:16   Marie-Claire Right. But they did some, you know, they they did change these things. I mean,

00:40:20   yeah, obviously, it's not a full, just a color swap back to our conversation about colors. And

00:40:25   I like that their colors match. And it's a really nice touch.

00:40:28   Johnny I'm used to as somebody who's had been using a touch ID MacBook Pro,

00:40:34   I guess since they came out, I'm used to touch ID on the Mac keyboard. And so

00:40:42   it, it didn't feel weird or unusual to me to use the iMac keyboard and just go to the top right

00:40:48   corner of the keyboard with my index finger to do all the touch ID stuff. But I was actually even

00:40:53   just before we recorded this today, I was chatting with some people on Twitter about, well, why not

00:40:59   face ID? Why touch ID instead of face ID on the Mac? And I answer? Well, I don't know. Nobody,

00:41:08   you know, again, Apple doesn't explain stuff like that. I mean, one thing I could think of

00:41:12   before was the aesthetics of it, right? Like, they're not going to put a notch in the Mac.

00:41:17   Like it just, it just wouldn't work. I mean, it would be whatever you think of the notch on the

00:41:24   phone. I don't think it would look good on the Mac. So it would have to go in the bezel. But if

00:41:27   they wanted to have this white bezel, then it would be like, not just a little tiny hole punch

00:41:33   in the middle for the one camera. It's like you'd have this whole oval up there. I guess though,

00:41:38   then they could, you know, you could say, well, then don't make it a white bezel, make it a black

00:41:41   bezel, then you could hide it in there. I think, though, that there's a security, a scam aspect to

00:41:50   it. Obviously, there's a security aspect to all of these biometrics. But I think that there's a

00:41:57   scam angle to it, where it's like Apple doesn't talk about stuff like this, because it's unpleasant.

00:42:05   But I do think that there was this whole, like, by the tail end of Touch ID phones, there was a

00:42:12   sort of cottage industry of scam apps in the App Store that would have in-app purchases

00:42:17   that would come up at unexpected times. And I've heard the story from a bunch of people,

00:42:24   and I've read, you know, there have been reports of it. And people are like, they don't know what

00:42:27   it is. They didn't expect it. They don't want it in-app purchase. And years of iPhone use trained

00:42:36   them. If you ever get caught in a situation where you don't know what's going or the app seems

00:42:41   locked up or whatever, hit the home button and you'll, you know, it's an escape hatch to go back

00:42:45   to the home screen. Well, if you're facing an in-app purchase prompt, and you hit the home

00:42:52   button with your thumb, it's like ka-ching! Interesting.

00:42:57   And I know that, I don't think it was a huge, I don't know how big a problem it was, right? I

00:43:02   don't know how many people got scammed that way, but definitely people got scammed. And there,

00:43:07   I've never verified it with anybody even off the record, but I'm nearly certain from hints that

00:43:15   I've gotten that they recognize that the confirmation of a payment with a Face ID iPhone

00:43:23   is a little bit more onerous than Touch ID was, right? So if it's an honest app,

00:43:31   and a thing you really want to buy, just putting your thumb on that sensor was so easy. Now,

00:43:37   you have to hold the phone and the Face ID part is pretty easy if you're looking at it,

00:43:41   but you've got to do this sort of weird double-click of the side button.

00:43:44   Right, the side button confirmation.

00:43:47   But the side button click cannot be faked by software. There's no access, there's no way,

00:43:52   there is no API that an app can use to simulate a fake side button press.

00:43:58   Right, it needs the hardware verification.

00:44:00   Right, and making it a double-press means that somebody who's like, "I don't know what this is,

00:44:04   I just want to turn my phone off," and clicks it once, it's not going to happen. So,

00:44:08   and I think that's the problem with Face ID on the Mac.

00:44:14   Is that there would still need, like for unlocking your Mac, like just sitting down in front of it,

00:44:20   and you hit the spacebar, it would be, or click anything or just, you know,

00:44:25   wave in front of it or whatever. Face ID would be fantastic. It would just unlock your Mac

00:44:29   and authenticate you and say, "Okay, I recognize you, Joanna, you're in, you're unlocked."

00:44:34   But for purchases, you would need some kind of secondary confirmation. And what, on the Mac,

00:44:42   what would that be that can't be faked by a malicious app? So, if it's just like a regular

00:44:50   keyboard key, like, "Oh, press return," well, apps can simulate a return key on the Mac.

00:44:55   You need to have like a special key on the keyboard, like, that can't be simulated by

00:45:02   software. Well, once you're talking about that, you're talking about the Touch ID button that

00:45:06   they have now. That is the special key, so why even have Face ID if you need a special

00:45:10   button anyway? And anything on screen, if it was like an on-screen button that you had to click

00:45:16   that says, "Confirm that you'd like to purchase this," I think that there's just ways that apps

00:45:21   can fake that, right? That they can like just fake the button press or put something up over it,

00:45:28   and you think you're clicking this thing that's over it, but it's actually the click is going

00:45:32   through to the authentic—I think it's about scams, but I don't know.

00:45:36   It's really, first of all, I never really thought about any of this scam stuff. So,

00:45:40   now I've written this down as a story idea for one day. It's crazy. I never really thought about it,

00:45:44   but it makes total sense, right? And lots of people must be dealing with this stuff.

00:45:49   - Yeah, you should look into it. - But what you bring up is interesting,

00:45:52   too, because I did some reporting earlier in the year because I was looking at the new Samsung

00:45:57   Galaxy S21, and I was just thinking when I got that, I was like, "Well, you know, there's a lot

00:46:02   of multi-factor authentication," and I think—I'm not sure if we talked about this on your podcast,

00:46:06   but the in-fingerprint sensor in the screen has gotten really good, and it got me wondering,

00:46:14   like, "Well, what's Apple thinking about with multi-factor bio-authentication?"

00:46:19   And I did some reporting, and it seems like Apple's very interested in that. I mean,

00:46:24   it seems like they definitely had teams, and I had one source start telling me they've been playing

00:46:28   around with this for a number of years, and there was this interest, too, it seemed, to bring back

00:46:33   the fingerprint sensor in a—they have a lot of patents around the in-screen fingerprint sensor,

00:46:41   but the question that I had was like, "Well, is that just to get rid of the other—you know,

00:46:45   you have an iPhone SE and people love that sort of home button, or is it to combine both of them?

00:46:50   Would they want to have a phone and any other device where you'd have two ideas, two choices,

00:46:58   or use them in tandem?" And even what you're talking about here makes a lot of sense, right,

00:47:02   because they've had to have the verification be in another hardware factor on the device.

00:47:08   - Yeah. I think they must be working in that regard, and my argument and favorite that they

00:47:14   must be is that just think about the way we as human beings recognize each other, right? Like,

00:47:20   all I've got right now—because, again, we're on Skype—all I've got is your voice, but I do know

00:47:25   your voice, and I know it's you, but I'd be a lot more certain it were you if we were face-to-face

00:47:31   recording in person, right? And I could see you, right? We use multiple senses, you know? It's

00:47:39   how you know where you are, you know? Like, you know, sometimes you can go to—like,

00:47:44   if I go to my parents' home, I could recognize it by smell, right? There's just like,

00:47:48   "I'm in my parents' house," you know? It can't be faked. So, I feel like that's inevitable,

00:47:55   but I feel like it's working out those user experience flows of, well, when do you use what?

00:48:02   Sure, you could just unlock the phone with your face, but then what do you do for a purchase?

00:48:07   And that might be the answer for the Mac. Maybe the answer for the Mac is they will add face ID,

00:48:12   and it will just unlock your Mac by face ID, but they will also have a touch ID button on

00:48:17   the keyboard, and if you want to make a purchase, you've got to use the touch ID button.

00:48:22   Stephanie: Right. It seems like the obvious place, too, to like really play with this is on the—well,

00:48:28   on the iPad, really.

00:48:31   Tom: Yeah. All right, let me take another break here and thank our next sponsor. It's our good

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00:50:17   Terms and conditions do apply. A lot of people are looking for work. A lot of people are changing

00:50:23   up what they're doing post-COVID. Stephanie; I have to say, I spend actually

00:50:29   a good amount of time on LinkedIn these days. Not looking for a job, please. Editors,

00:50:35   I'm not looking for a job there, but I get very smart reader and viewer

00:50:42   email or friend requests, like messages there. Far more sophisticated and clear than I would get on

00:50:52   Twitter or Facebook or one of those places, or even email.

00:50:56   Pete: Yeah, I have to say, I put off signing up for LinkedIn until a few years ago, but I did,

00:51:00   and I don't use it a lot, but when I do, it's sort of like this weird alternate universe where social

00:51:06   media is completely sane and calm and a lot more like the real world. So I got a package for

00:51:16   somebody down the street by accident. They just dropped it off, or maybe it was small. I forget.

00:51:20   I think it might have even gone through the mail slot, but I was like, "I don't know who this is,

00:51:24   but I see the address." And I was like, "I wonder how I can get in touch with them." And I

00:51:28   Googled the person, and their only hit on social media was LinkedIn. I was like, "Oh,

00:51:33   I have LinkedIn." And I like LinkedIn, and I opened a chat, and he was like, "Oh, that's me. I don't

00:51:40   even know what that is, but I'll come pick it up." And he was like, "Where are you?" And I'm like,

00:51:44   I gave him my address and he's like, "Oh, you're right down the street." And it was delightful.

00:51:48   Now I have a neighborhood friend.

00:51:51   Heather: That's a beautiful story, a LinkedIn friend.

00:51:53   Pete; A LinkedIn friend.

00:51:55   Heather; Because something bad could have happened to that meetup,

00:51:57   but I don't want to go down there. Pete;

00:51:59   He seemed legit. He actually works at Microsoft.

00:52:02   Heather; Of course he does. Of course he does.

00:52:04   Pete; Let's talk iPad. So here's my biggest complaint about the iPad. And I kind of regret

00:52:10   not putting in my iPad Pro review. And I don't know what the answer is. But my biggest problem

00:52:16   with the new iPad Pro is, okay, they've done all of this work to make it work as in a laptop form

00:52:23   factor. And they have this nice new keyboard cover that came out last year. And it works pretty great.

00:52:30   And I think for people who really like the iPad, they love it. But once you've got the iPad in the

00:52:36   Magic Keyboard cover, the camera is off to the left and it's down low. And so even on a regular

00:52:45   laptop, the camera is usually too low to be flattering if your laptop is at a comfortable

00:52:52   desk height and you're taller than the top of the laptop. But with the iPad Pro, it's even lower.

00:53:00   And it always makes it look like you're not paying attention to the person you're video chatting with,

00:53:07   because it looks like you're looking off to the side.

00:53:09   Heather; I mean, most of the time, I'm probably not paying attention, but I totally agree.

00:53:14   But this is—and I will say I didn't review the iPad Pro. Nicole Nguyen, my colleague, did. And

00:53:21   she highlighted a lot of this, but she also talked about how good center stage is. So what did you

00:53:25   think about that?

00:53:26   Michael DeGiorgio I thought it was great. I thought it was truly

00:53:28   uncanny. And every bit as the demo that Apple showed during the event was a genuinely honest

00:53:35   demo of how it works in terms of the fluidity of the panning and the zooming in and out of people

00:53:42   jumping in. And it was it was a great excuse to get to get my 17 year old who is a delightful young

00:53:50   man, but is maybe not the most enthusiastic about talking to grandparents on FaceTime,

00:53:55   because he's 17 and would rather be playing video games. But it was a great excuse to fire up

00:54:00   FaceTime and talk to family and get him in and, you know, have him walk in and out of frame and

00:54:05   have the zooming in and out. It works great, but it's just such a weird angle. And when it's in

00:54:11   the state, you know, the keyboard, it, yeah, you really want that camera at the top. And I get it

00:54:17   because then when you're holding the iPad up and down, then your your hand might be covering it,

00:54:23   and then it would be on the side and you can't. It's just a weird thing, like having a device to

00:54:29   Yeah, but then all this, you know, is two cameras the right answer? It seems that then

00:54:34   I think they should just move it really. I mean, on especially on these pros, which it would be

00:54:40   I've always I think I said this in a couple of iPad reviews previously, like I'd love to see data

00:54:44   about how many people are holding it. Like when you have the pro if you're really just using a

00:54:49   lot of it vertically, horizontally. Because the keyboard, if you're buying the keyboard with it,

00:54:54   it means like, I have an iPad Pro here from last year, I guess with the keyboard dock. And it's

00:55:00   always horizontal. Right? Like it's just that's the way I type on it. It's even how I watch on

00:55:08   like it's just that's the traditional way. Why not have the camera on at least on the pros in

00:55:15   that location, I can see on the air and the regular iPad, keeping it vertical, because a lot of that

00:55:20   use case may still be vertical. Did you notice that recently, I think in either iPad OS 14.5,

00:55:28   or I think it was 14.5. But it was pretty recent. They've they've updated it so that when you power

00:55:34   it on or restart it, the Apple logo is actually oriented whichever way the iPad is, as opposed to

00:55:40   up until now, it was always the Apple logo on on the boot was always oriented as though you were

00:55:46   holding it up and down. And so vertical, yeah, vertical. And so if you had it horizontal in the

00:55:51   keyboard, every time you installed a software update, or otherwise restarted it, the Apple logo

00:55:56   was sideways. And I was like, well, they have to pick one, you know, this is like the camera,

00:56:01   they have to pick one. I guess they, you know, up and down vertical is the default that that's

00:56:06   the official iPad orientation. And so they had to do it. And how are they ever going to make the

00:56:12   Apple logo adjust dynamically? Because it hasn't booted yet. So how does it even and somehow they

00:56:16   fixed it? I don't know how they did it. But I love the idea that someone at Apple was so bothered by

00:56:21   it that they they committed engineering resources to let's get this Apple logo to go both ways.

00:56:28   I love that. But they also, when was it that they made the tweak where the what's the sidebar called?

00:56:36   I think it must have been iOS 13. Like around, I think when they forked iOS, iPadOS, right, where

00:56:43   they really started to make the case of, hey, this interface is going to feel different in horizontal

00:56:48   mode. Yeah, it just feels like there was this shift where they really were addressing, okay,

00:56:52   we're really going to embrace the keyboard, the hard the horizontal setup. And it feels like the

00:57:02   camera's just leftover. Yeah, I don't know what they can do, right? If they could move it to the

00:57:09   side, I kind of feel like you do like if they're gonna say that the for the pros, it you've got

00:57:15   this keyboard, maybe just put the camera on the side. And it's like I had the idea. Well, what if

00:57:20   they put it in the corner? And then it would always say the side you mean on the so it would

00:57:26   be at the top when it's in the in the keyboard in horizontal. Yeah. But see, I view that as the top.

00:57:32   Yeah. Because like for these iPad pros, it's bats the top to me, like I very rarely I'm using that

00:57:38   holding and as an invertical. Like even when I take it out of the keyboard, and I'm like in bed

00:57:43   scrolling and looking, it's still horizontal. Like I'm really never using it like iPhone style.

00:57:50   Yeah. I don't read a lot. I don't I don't know how to read.

00:57:53   I don't read a lot on the iPad. So maybe that's the difference. Like a lot of people who read

00:58:01   and use this as like a as an e reader still. Like that's the default, right? Like as a book.

00:58:07   Yeah. No, definitely. Amy loves her iPad Pro. And she likes the big one. She has the the I wish it

00:58:16   was 13 inches, the 12.9 inch iPad Pro. And she uses it all the time. She always uses it in

00:58:22   vertical mode, though. So interesting. And she doesn't even have to do on it. She just likes to

00:58:28   read and play games and just text and she sits there and text with one finger on the thing,

00:58:34   but she just reads it. She just loves it for reading and reading the web and just doing it in a

00:58:40   you know, she's it's exactly like Steve Jobs predicted when it came out that she likes to sit

00:58:46   back, right? She's on the couch. And instead of sitting forward in a desk chair doing her reading,

00:58:50   she likes to sit in a comfortable chair and lean back and read all of her news and email and stuff

00:58:56   there. Yeah, I don't I don't. And I was actually thinking about that a lot in the case of this

00:59:02   iMac, because maybe I could be an iMac iPad person. But I'm really a MacBook iPhone person.

00:59:12   And that is to say, like when I'm at my desk, I use a laptop with a screen, but then I want to

00:59:20   leave my desk, but I still go to my laptop. So like, at night, if I have to send a quick email,

00:59:26   I grab my laptop, or I'm on my iPhone. Yeah. That's sort of thinking, okay, well, if I move to an

00:59:32   iMac, because I'm home a lot more, and I like this screen here, well, then I might use an iPad on the

00:59:38   couch. Maybe I go use my iPad Pro. I do this thing where I find that with the iPad Pro, it's a it's a

00:59:47   time sink for me. And it's not it's not a complaint per se. It's just that when I'm at my most

00:59:52   productive, it's when I'm at my Mac, by far. 100%. And so like in the morning, I wake up and I'm

01:00:00   making coffee and I'm in the kitchen and I have my I should what I should do is get my iPad out of

01:00:04   the kitchen, but I keep it in the kitchen. And if I sit down and start using my iPad, I'll find like

01:00:11   two hours have gone by. And I've, I've worked and I've read stuff. But for the most part, I don't

01:00:17   like doing my actual blog posting from iPad. And so all I've really done is flag a bunch of articles

01:00:24   that I want to link to or write about or something, but I haven't actually done it. Whereas if I had

01:00:29   just been sitting at my Mac, I'd have already posted two or three things. And if I instead

01:00:34   just force myself to just use even on my iPads right there, use my phone instead, I will,

01:00:39   while I'm making coffee and maybe having the first sips of it, I will think I should go downstairs

01:00:46   to my office and get to work. And it's just it's not a complaint per se. It's just that,

01:00:52   but I'll get sucked into the iPad and it's just good enough to keep me there. But I don't feel

01:00:57   productive enough to actually do the full work. I'm sitting there like flagging emails like,

01:01:02   Oh, when I get to my Mac, I'll actually answer this email because I want to find a file in

01:01:06   Dropbox and drag it in and do this other thing or and it's like, I don't want to do that on the

01:01:12   iPad. So I'll just flag emails and it's like, it's it's sort of like the way that some people can get

01:01:19   sucked into a to do system and you're not actually getting anything done. All you're doing is

01:01:24   organizing your to do's exquisitely with tags and projects and and you feel like you've accomplished

01:01:30   something but you haven't actually done any of it. All you've done is organized this exquisite

01:01:34   to do system. And I'm the same way on like, on the Mac, I just feel like, Oh, I can get this done.

01:01:40   And I'm still the same type of person where I'm like, you know what, this is an email I really

01:01:44   need to think about. I'm not doing it on my phone. Even though I can type very fast on my phone,

01:01:48   and I can really like, think it out on the phone. I just like save that kind of work for my Mac.

01:01:54   Yeah, I do. Even like, you know, it just feels like, oh, I had to sign a PDF and send it back

01:02:01   the other day. And I was like, I know I can do this on this phone. I know I could do it on the

01:02:05   iPad. The iPad actually might be easier because you have like the pen. I don't even know if

01:02:10   that was really true anymore because I've like had my signature saved in preview and it's just easy.

01:02:14   But like, I know I can do that in, I don't know, a few seconds on my Mac.

01:02:23   Like I'm just I just feel my fastest.

01:02:26   You've got the new Apple TV remote?

01:02:29   I don't.

01:02:31   Oh, you don't have it yet?

01:02:32   No, you know what Apple didn't send it to me. I bought it. It's still stuck in shipping.

01:02:36   Hmm. Well, I

01:02:38   and I felt like you know, I didn't want to pressure them to send it to me because

01:02:41   I have hated my remote so much. I've, I've reviewed alternate remotes. I have tweeted at every

01:02:52   second I can that I when I lose the remote, I make a big fuss about it. And I said, I'm just

01:02:56   going to buy this remote and I'll see. I'll wait as long as I have to. But I liked your review of

01:03:02   it. I'm very excited to get it.

01:03:03   I made a mistake though. And I think I reiterated it in my podcast last week with Marco, where

01:03:10   I somehow thought that you could use the the click wheel where you just run your finger around in a

01:03:18   wheel to scroll up and down lists the way that you could on an old iPod. But you can't what happens

01:03:25   is if you try that it does move the selection. But as you go down, it's going down and you get

01:03:31   to the bottom of the circle and your thumb starts going up, it just makes the selection go back up.

01:03:36   So it's like you the selection, let's say you're in the TV or the TV OS settings app,

01:03:42   and there's a list of you go to settings and there's a list of like 10 sections,

01:03:47   and you want to scroll down and you start running your thumb down the wheel. It's like it goes down

01:03:53   four, and then you get to the bottom and your thumb goes up and it goes back up and it just

01:03:58   cycles between the top four items. And I so I don't know what made me think that was working,

01:04:04   but it did. I thought it was maybe it's because I didn't try to go far enough down. I just scrolled

01:04:09   a little bit and it went down and I was like, cool. But it really at the moment in tv OS,

01:04:14   it really that the scroll wheel thing only works for scrubbing and video, but it's fantastic for

01:04:20   scrubbing and video because you don't have to keep picking your thumb up going swipe, swipe,

01:04:24   swipe, swipe, you could just run your finger over and you're like, I'm going halfway through this

01:04:30   two hour movie to get to the part I want to watch. And it doesn't work for volume, right? You have the

01:04:34   dedicated volume there. Yeah, the wheel does not work for volume, you just use the volume buttons.

01:04:40   Yeah, I'm looking at your picture and your view and I read your view. I think,

01:04:45   you know, obviously the size for me was a is a huge thing. I'm actually like,

01:04:50   stupidly excited about the power button. It's nice. It really is. It's because sometimes you're

01:04:56   hitting the menu button to turn on and you're not sure if that's working. And you keep hitting menu

01:05:02   and then you see the light on the Apple TV turn on. You're like, I think that's what the menu

01:05:06   button did. But yeah, and then it takes a while to load. I'm just I think the power button is

01:05:10   a nice shortcut. And it's like, you know what you did with it. Apple's always had this thing where

01:05:15   they obviously are the the most button averse technology company known to known to mankind.

01:05:22   And like the original Apple TV remote looked like it only had like three buttons. And it's,

01:05:28   they love to reduce buttons. And one of the buttons they always think they can get rid of

01:05:34   is a power button. And it's like then it all then they always bring it back. It's like, yeah,

01:05:38   you kind of want a power button. And it's like holding down something that you wouldn't think

01:05:43   of a power button to say that's how you turn it off. It it it I could not agree more. And I really

01:05:50   hope we see the power button come back on the MacBook Pro. I don't know how they could do that.

01:05:57   But why not? Why not? Just make it a little piece of aluminum in the corner like they did with the

01:06:01   remote and then it doesn't stick out. It's not it's not like on this. It used to be remember it had

01:06:07   you had the little black the little silver aluminum button in the top right. Yep. And it was bare. It

01:06:14   was, you know, flush with the silver and with the aluminum and it was great. Yeah. So here's constantly

01:06:19   hit sometimes you I don't really restart my Mac that much. But when I do and I'm like,

01:06:23   is the fingerprint sensor turning this on? Like what is something happening here? Yeah. So here's

01:06:28   another story I've heard. I have no official confirmation of this. But do you know you how like,

01:06:34   if you power down your MacBook now, and it's off, and you touch any of the keys,

01:06:41   and or press any of the keys like the J key or the Q key, any key, it turns on the MacBook,

01:06:49   you can just hit any key on the keyboard and it turns on a powered off MacBook.

01:06:53   And it's like, oh, that's interesting. That's cool. But it's like, how do you clean the keyboard?

01:06:59   Like if you would just like to take a cloth and just rub it over the keys, and just sort of take

01:07:05   off your finger grease and everything like that. You can't do it without turning on the MacBook.

01:07:10   And I it's not a the greatest use case because I guess while it's powering up, if you're pressing

01:07:16   mashing all these keys down as you wipe the grease off, it's fine. But why? What's what's the point?

01:07:23   Like what? Who wants this? And apparently, this is what I've heard, but I have no confirmation of.

01:07:29   But it that feature came after they added the touch ID button that doubles as a power button.

01:07:34   And the touch ID button doesn't have a power logo on it, I guess because if they put the

01:07:40   screen printed logo on top, it would interfere with the sensor's ability to see your fingerprint.

01:07:46   And because there's no button that looks like a power icon, people didn't people didn't know how

01:07:52   to turn their MacBooks on. And they were like going to the Apple Store, like I don't know how

01:07:56   to turn this on. I swear I don't believe it. I totally believe it. Because I'm that's what

01:08:01   I'm sort of saying is that I just always am like pressing the fingerprint button pretty hard to like

01:08:07   turn it on. And actually, I think I thought that's how you turned on the computer. Could you just

01:08:13   thank you for telling me that's not because it works. But it just seems like such a funny FAQ

01:08:19   that no other computer company would ever have like an app turn on this fucking product. Like

01:08:26   the Apple, the company that famously makes the easiest to use computers anybody's ever made.

01:08:32   And the one thing that people don't know how to do is turn it on.

01:08:35   Also with the iMac, like I've set this thing up. I mean, I don't want to say that I spent like,

01:08:41   much more than, I don't know, 20 seconds looking for that power button. But I definitely was like

01:08:46   fumbling around with it to find the power button in the back, which is the same color as the

01:08:52   back. Right. So you're kind of like, you know, like, no, it should be back here. Where is it?

01:08:57   Where is it? And you're like, you know, moving this thing around. Luckily, this is very light

01:09:00   and thin. So it's not a big deal. Yeah, bring the color. I mean, bringing the color conversation

01:09:06   full circle. They should do what they with the pixel does, which is a different color.

01:09:10   Power button. Hmm. Yeah, maybe I do. They make it two tone power button. Yeah, I just I, I, I,

01:09:18   I'm, I'm all in favor of a dedicated power button and just make it little they could just use the

01:09:22   same little button from the remote just a little button up there. You could just be

01:09:25   on that. And also I so I have bought, I've done two things to try to fix the shitty old Siri

01:09:31   remote. The first thing was I bought one of those cases on Amazon this like, you know, have you seen

01:09:36   these like silicon? I've had several. They're all had several because they're all fine. They're all

01:09:41   like $7. You know, yeah. But they're fine. You know, it makes it a little bit bigger. You can

01:09:47   tell up from down its color. So you can kind of recognize it when it falls in between the cushions.

01:09:52   But then I also bought this other one, which was actually sent to me for review, because I'd been

01:09:57   tweeting about how much I hated the remote at some point. And this company called function 101,

01:10:02   small company, and they made this Apple TV replacement remote. And it doesn't do Siri,

01:10:09   it doesn't do voice, but it does everything else. And it's like big, and it has a power button up in

01:10:13   the corner. And the buttons, it has like the rubbery feel. So everything like bounces.

01:10:19   And I love this thing. Oh, I think I do know that. Yeah, what the name was function. One on one wasn't

01:10:24   ringing a bell, but there are a couple no name. But it is also how crazy is it? Like, whatever you

01:10:32   want to say about the price of the Apple TV hardware starting at like 180 or I know they

01:10:37   still sell the $150 one that's crazy. It's the old it's like an a seven chip and it only does 1080.

01:10:44   But how crazy is it that there's $180 set top box that comes with the remote that there's a cottage

01:10:50   industry not just for these $7 rubber sleeves, but for entirely replacing the remote control?

01:10:57   Yeah, this is a $40 remote. And it was like, the best purchase I think I made last year.

01:11:02   So I'm excited to use the new one. And then it sounds like

01:11:08   and the thickness of it, it really it makes a difference.

01:11:11   Oh, I think it's so much better. I just love to hold it in my hand while I while we watch TV now.

01:11:16   And I just keep it there and like kind of fit, you know, like fidget with it, like just spin it around

01:11:20   in my hand. It's sure your wife loves that you know, hold my hand. No, sorry, I'm holding the remote.

01:11:24   No, I hold it in my left hand and she's on my right and we hold it. We hold it.

01:11:28   Beautiful.

01:11:30   But it is it's it's just a beautiful slab of aluminum that feels great in hand. And it just

01:11:37   I just cannot believe that it took five and a half years for Apple to ship it.

01:11:42   Yeah, I mean, it's ordered.

01:11:46   You had recently I forget when what this was in response to was it after the event where

01:11:52   you had the interview with Craig Federighi?

01:11:54   It was before it was actually I did do the interview the day after the event,

01:12:01   or two days after the event, but it was pre iOS 14.5 where he wanted to talk about it.

01:12:08   Yeah, right. This was sort of instead of talking about the privacy stuff in iOS 14.5 during the

01:12:16   event, they didn't even mention it. They instead did some press and Craig's interview video

01:12:24   interview with you was my favorite. And it was crazy. This is where I really do. I would love to

01:12:31   razz you. But it's like I just have to praise you that you got this crazy short amount of time,

01:12:37   didn't they say you have like you've got like 15 minutes with them or something like that?

01:12:41   15 minutes. Yeah, it's insane.

01:12:42   You've got 15 minutes with Craig Federighi to talk about these complex issues. And you ended up with

01:12:49   this six minute six, seven minute video that was super tight and just like, boom, boom, boom,

01:12:54   this is great. Including my favorite question, which was why does the button it's like,

01:13:01   you get asked, you know, an app wants to track you. And the one button says, allow and the other

01:13:07   button says, ask not to track. Why not disallow? Right? Why not? Or do not track do not track.

01:13:15   And the answer was, they have to ask, they still have to you're asking some some part is that

01:13:22   Apple is saying, we will not allow them to track some things, but some things are up to the

01:13:27   developer. Right. And so you have to you're basically asking that app not to track you.

01:13:32   There's some technical reasons behind the scenes that they can't be sure. Right. Apple doesn't see

01:13:39   all the data flow. So it has to sort of rely and trust this developer not to do it. Right. And I

01:13:46   that's sort of what I was thinking. But hearing Federighi say it, it was like, yeah, that makes

01:13:52   a lot of sense. Because the basic gist is, okay, you click ask not to track. And Apple can cut the

01:13:58   app off from API access to the device identifier and the ad identifier. And there's these API's

01:14:05   that the app just no longer has access to same way. If you say this app does not have access to

01:14:11   location, then that app can just can't ask the phone, hey, where are we? What's our GPS? It just

01:14:17   that the API says no, you don't have permission for it. They can do that for these identifiers,

01:14:22   but they can't keep the app from coming up with other schemes to fingerprint and, and right and

01:14:29   track you even though you asked not to be. So all you can do is ask and Apple isn't willing to make

01:14:35   it seem as though if you if you had a button that said don't track, you would expect that you can't

01:14:44   be tracked. Right. Yeah. It's sort of an honor policy part on the developers. And you kind of

01:14:51   get the feeling like a lot of these developers maybe don't have so much honor. Yeah, I think

01:14:58   that there's probably some shady things. I mean, now that I think about it, as you're saying it,

01:15:02   Apple could have probably done and this also goes to something else he said, which is they probably

01:15:06   could have done a two pop up, right? One, don't have this ad ID track me. And then to ask the

01:15:13   developer not to use other ways to track but that would have been a bad user experience, right? Like

01:15:18   you wouldn't. So, which is what he talked a lot about, which was that we tried to make this simple,

01:15:23   it's a really complex thing to begin with ad tech is so mad. It's just like crazy confusing. We want

01:15:31   to try to make it as easy for the user. But this is the best we could basically do right now.

01:15:34   I read, I will put it in the show notes, I'm going to make a list right here, because I was going to

01:15:41   link to it later today anyway. But I read an interesting Twitter thread today from somebody

01:15:45   who works in not the tracking part, but in the privacy part of trying to make things more private.

01:15:54   I'm not even sure where he works. But he had a Twitter thread where he said he was just visiting

01:15:59   his mother. Oh, I saw that's about the toothpaste. Yeah, about the toothpaste. And it's this specific

01:16:05   brand of toothpaste that his mother uses at her house. And he'd been there for a few days. And

01:16:11   then all of a sudden on Twitter, he started getting ads for this brand of toothpaste. And he

01:16:15   said, we never talked about it. Nobody while I was there, nobody ever talked about whatever brand it

01:16:20   is, he doesn't mention it. And all of a sudden, he's getting these ads. And this is the sort of

01:16:24   thing that spooks people. But his explanation for how is this even possible is basically,

01:16:31   okay, he's given Twitter his email, he also has his email connected to his credit card. So he

01:16:40   if he makes purchases using his credit card at a drugstore, that the purchase can be associated

01:16:46   with his email, then it could go into the ad tracking system. And they're like, well,

01:16:50   we know this guy's email. He's this, you know, at whoever on Twitter. That's the same guy. What did

01:16:55   he buy? What did he buy at Walgreens? Oh, he bought Colgate. He said, okay, but he didn't buy

01:17:01   the toothpaste. His mother did. But then they can if any of the apps involved have access to location,

01:17:07   then they can say, Well, who else has been near him? Oh, he's been near this woman. And she's

01:17:13   bought Colgate. And therefore, it all goes through the system. And then all of a sudden, he's getting

01:17:19   ads for his mother's brand of toothpaste, even though nobody talked about it.

01:17:23   Which is,

01:17:24   Marie-Claire Yeah, it's just like, I read his tune, I was like, of course,

01:17:27   right? I mean, I guess I've been covering this for now since three or four or five years now. And

01:17:34   yeah, some of the things are more nuanced. But it's like, it's always shocking to me how little

01:17:41   the user really knows. And how complex these systems are. But also, like, at this point that

01:17:48   it's like, yeah, of course, that's how it happened. And like, how big these databases are of all of

01:17:56   this information. But then it does come down to these very specific and like, oh, yeah, I guess

01:18:04   so focal points of how to make the connections between this soup, this absolute massive soup of

01:18:12   data. But it's like, you're it's the same email address there and the same email address here.

01:18:18   And that means it's you.

01:18:20   Marie-Claire Yeah, I mean, I did this piece, you know, a couple years ago, when everyone was really

01:18:25   trying to figure out how Facebook, you know, it was all in response to Facebook listening to our

01:18:29   mics. And I did this piece a number of years ago, where it was like, they're not listening. And this

01:18:34   is because I thought I was like, they how did they know I was sick? Like, I went and I got like,

01:18:39   Sudafed and all this stuff. And I started getting all the ads for all like, all this allergy.

01:18:44   Yeah, I think it was I had like the flu or something. And I was like, how did they know?

01:18:48   Right? Like, it's like, oh, they listening to me sneeze all this like, and it was so clear after

01:18:54   I just put together the fact that I went to Walgreens, and my Facebook account has the same

01:19:01   email or like, basically same login. And

01:19:05   or something, right? Yeah, some kind of identifier.

01:19:09   Marie-Claire Yeah, and I think, you know, so much of the algorithms powering all of this stuff now,

01:19:14   too, is just like, this stuff is all being shared. And so it's not to me, it's like, sometimes like,

01:19:20   I'm not surprised that they know this about me now.

01:19:22   Yeah. That's why I know it's complex. And I think Apple, in my opinion, is making it a little bit

01:19:30   worse to to be staunchly on Apple's side of this debate, by also ramping up their own advertising

01:19:41   stuff to a small degree in the App Store, right, like they just added a new ad unit on the search

01:19:47   page, where before you even search in the App Store, now there's an ad unit there. And they say,

01:19:54   you know, because their their whole thing is about third party ad tracking. And first party tracking

01:19:59   is a okay, right. So like, whatever you do in Facebook can affect what you see in Instagram,

01:20:05   because that's all first party, it stays within Facebook's properties. And the App Store is

01:20:11   considered first party to Apple. And that they say, you know, based on your previous downloads,

01:20:17   and the maybe the type of games you like to, to download to your iPhone, that they will use that

01:20:23   to show ads in the App Store to you. And none of it is it. The pro Apple part of this is I have

01:20:34   never heard one person ever say I got a creepy ad in the App Store for an app, right. And in fact,

01:20:42   most of the ones I see, and I download apps all the time. They're all just for nonsense games that

01:20:46   I have no interest in. It's all games and I have no interest in it. And they're nothing like any

01:20:50   of the games I've ever played. It's not creepy, right? There's sort of and I know I overuse this

01:20:56   phrase. Neelai always complains about it that that I overuse the justice potter thing about obscenity

01:21:02   that I know it when I see it. But the legal argument about that is Neelai's argument that it's

01:21:11   it's not a good way to do it legally, but it in a common sense, real life way, I know it when I see

01:21:17   it is such a great rule of thumb. And I know a creepy ad when I see it. And the stuff Apple's

01:21:25   doing isn't creepy. But it just seems like a conflict of interest that they're doing this thing

01:21:33   that Facebook publicly to their credit is very public. They're not just like back channeling

01:21:40   their complaints. They're very public that they think what Apple's doing is wrong and hurting

01:21:45   small businesses and whatever else. But at the same moment that they're rolling this out, they're also

01:21:53   expanding their advertising in the App Store and they don't need it's like of all the things that

01:21:57   they don't need that money. That is literal pocket change to Apple. So why why do it? Why not just

01:22:04   eliminate the conflict of interest? I just guess the to play devil's advocate, and I don't know

01:22:10   enough about this, the journals had a few stories about it, is also part of this to appease some of

01:22:16   the developers who are worried about getting that sort of cross, losing out on the in app ads. And

01:22:24   so we're, how do I explain this, where the idea is that some developers are where they stand to

01:22:30   lose people coming to their apps is to not be able to advertise anymore in one app, right? Because

01:22:38   you don't know as much information now because of ATT because of all the tracking that's being

01:22:44   turned off. So you don't know as much about who could download your app, right? Like,

01:22:48   maybe I should put this in simpler terms. Let's say you are the maker of a coffee mug company,

01:22:55   and you want to advertise to other people who have downloaded coffee apps. Well, you might not get

01:23:01   that information anymore. So it's harder to advertise in those apps. Right? Yeah, now, but so

01:23:08   here, you can still reach some of those people. Well, it's not for the product is for the app.

01:23:14   But like, let me reverse it and not really think through this this metaphor here. But now you can

01:23:21   place those ads in the store, which are using the first party data from Apple, if any of this

01:23:25   makes sense. Yeah, I guess it I don't know, it's just all a bit, it just would be so much. It would

01:23:35   be almost 100% clean as an argument if they just weren't if they just moved away from advertising

01:23:42   in the App Store, right. And I agree. And the other thing too, is I don't think that the search

01:23:49   result ads are a good user experience. I don't think I pay attention to those. I just I just

01:23:56   it's like when you type in the name of a very specific app, like overcast, overcat, you type in

01:24:02   overcast podcast and you hit return. And the first result is some other podcast app that placed it,

01:24:09   you know, outbid Marco Arment for the word overcast today on on the App Store. It's like,

01:24:16   I'm not fooled. I know what I'm looking for. I just typed overcast. It's like there it is the

01:24:21   second one down that let me install it on this new iPad that I'm setting up.

01:24:24   Is it that and it just seems like so many of the ads aren't like like if somebody just types in

01:24:33   podcast app, okay, sure, maybe then it's a good time to to to allow somebody to advertise on the

01:24:40   term. But so many of the terms that that the advertisers are clearly bidding on our rival apps

01:24:47   names. And I know that Apple mentioned this when they rolled out these ads, they specifically

01:24:52   address that concern. And they pitched it as it gives small developers a chance to get prominence

01:25:02   over the big name apps that might otherwise show up first. But what I see in day to day use is it's

01:25:08   the bigger name apps that always have those spots because they've got the money to spend on the ads.

01:25:13   Exactly. I mean, and I feel like I never really noticed them unless it's something that doesn't

01:25:19   really make sense. Yeah. Right. I guess I'm also usually like you're saying I'm searching for a

01:25:24   specific app and I'm going to find it in. I'm going to look for that specifically. So I'm not

01:25:30   really usually focused for Oh, maybe there's a better solution here. I don't usually search for

01:25:35   like a generic. I'd like a workout app or I'd like a streaming app. It's like, hey, I want Netflix.

01:25:43   Right. But you and I are, you know, not typical. We know a lot of the apps we're looking for already.

01:25:49   And I suspect a lot of real people do search for generic terms. But it's sort of like they're

01:25:54   repeating the maybe not even mistakes. But you could you could watch this happen to Google search

01:26:00   results over the last 20 years, you can see how it users started ignoring remember when the ads were

01:26:11   in a blue box, and it was kind of you know, it wasn't like a it was like the powder blue from

01:26:16   the iMac, right? It was like a subtle blue box, but they were definitely in a box and you knew

01:26:20   which ones were ads. And there was often only one or two. And they got less and less relevant when

01:26:28   you were for some search terms, and people just trained their eyes to go from the box you type

01:26:34   your Google search in to underneath the ads, you would just your eyes, it's like you developed like

01:26:41   a natural blind spot to it. And then as users got that blind spot, Google started adding more ads so

01:26:48   that you know that the ads would jump down, scroll down lower to where your eyes were going. And then

01:26:55   all of a sudden, now they've got a lot of ads, right? And it's like if you showed a screenshot

01:26:59   of Google search today for some results to a Google user from like 2005, they would be like,

01:27:06   Oh my god, that's terrible. You know, what happened to Google? And it was just like,

01:27:10   I can sort of see that happening to the App Store now. It's like, and I just think that given that

01:27:17   Apple has taken this, we're taking on the tracking advertising industry, which effectively is the

01:27:24   online advertising industry. It's it just adds this little bit of a sour taste to a position where I

01:27:32   think they're 98% correct on. Yeah. And I think you're right just about the general. Yes, like,

01:27:40   if you're going to take this stance and be so hard on the ad industry, which really is I do

01:27:46   believe benefiting in some really important ways. And anytime I interview people within the ad

01:27:51   industry, they they seem to like, I don't know if it's just, you know, that's what they want to say,

01:27:54   because they're talking to a reporter, and they want to be like, you know, they don't want to

01:27:57   sound like Facebook and say, Hey, we want all this data. But if you're going to play that role,

01:28:03   like, maybe just Yeah, put put up the wall, right? Just just don't be in that business.

01:28:08   Right. All right. Let me take a break here and thank our third sponsor, another new sponsor first

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01:30:05   - What else? What else with the Craig interview? I thought that was so good. I was so jealous

01:30:12   because I feel like, and now I'm like, I don't know who, I'm working on plans for a WWDC talk show.

01:30:21   I don't know what's going on yet. It will be, I guess, remote again this year since all of WWDC

01:30:28   is remote. But I feel like- - I watched so much of yours last year. I mean,

01:30:33   I remember watching it, but then I rewatched it for preparing for this because, well, for two

01:30:39   things. One, I wanted to get a feeling for what he's like in an interview. And of course, I've

01:30:42   watched a lot, but I needed to refresh my memory. And then two, I was like, what was the tech setup

01:30:47   that you had? And I was, I mean, I texted you because I was like studying it. I was like, okay,

01:30:52   so he's got a different camera in front of him. So, but are they all using iPhone cameras and how

01:30:57   did this all sync? And you told me all of it, which was very helpful. - It's a

01:31:03   it's all, now that we're getting close to WWDC, it all just feels like this giant pit of despair.

01:31:09   Because- - You gotta do it again.

01:31:12   - And as nervous as I am when I do the show in front of a theater audience, I feel like,

01:31:19   well, that it can't really go wrong. Like, and if somebody's there, a professional camera person

01:31:24   is there and I don't have to worry about the camera and the audience is there. I just walk out

01:31:29   on stage and if I misspeak, I can recover. Whereas I was terrified in this doing the WWDC thing

01:31:36   last June where it was like, I couldn't really have anybody for quarantine helping me. And I

01:31:43   was so terrified that it wasn't actually recording. - Well, this year, hopefully you can, but you did

01:31:48   a great job because I was looking at it. So I was like, somebody must have been there with him.

01:31:52   - I did have help setting it up. But then when we did the show, I was in the room by myself,

01:31:57   but it was that we just, everybody, me, Federighi and Jaws were all using iPhone cameras.

01:32:03   I had a real lav mic, but the trick with using the iPhone camera to record it while looking at them

01:32:12   on screen on a MacBook was to set the phone up on a tripod behind the MacBook with just as close as

01:32:22   possible to the top of the screen and with just the camera peeking over the top, but also not so

01:32:28   low. You don't want to get a little bit of the MacBook in the frame either, right? - Well, and

01:32:32   then were you watching, you were watching them on some video chat? Because it looked like everyone

01:32:38   was basically looking directly in the camera. So I was like, maybe they just did this audio.

01:32:43   - No, and it was, I forget which app we used. I forget if, I know Apple likes to use that

01:32:48   Cisco WebEx, but I don't think we used WebEx for the show. But whatever we did, what I did was I

01:32:54   shrunk the window as small as I could where I could still see the facial expressions of Jaws

01:33:00   and Craig, but put it at the top of the screen. So as I was looking at them, it looked like I was

01:33:05   looking as close as possible to the camera. And I have to say, I do have to say it turned out as

01:33:11   good as I thought it could possibly turn out. - Yeah, it was really good. I mean, it just

01:33:15   felt like everyone was looking at the camera and the conversation. I was also very jealous

01:33:22   as what it was, like an hour, hour or something. - Yeah, well, officially an hour, and I think we

01:33:26   went like 70 minutes or something like that. - Yeah, and like the editing, you could tell

01:33:31   there was no real editing. It was just kind of cuts back and forth, but it flowed really nicely.

01:33:37   - Yeah, well, that was my friends at Sandwich Video who did the editing between the three

01:33:41   cameras of footage. And the Apple guys cheat because they have a whole crew there to help

01:33:46   them out. So they had two cameras on each of them. So there were actually, I guess,

01:33:50   five cameras of footage. And my friends at Sandwich Video did the editing and just sort

01:33:55   of made it, you know, it looked like a TV show where you don't even notice that it's cutting

01:33:59   between different camera angles. - Yeah, I mean, that was this huge challenge on our part. My

01:34:04   producer, Kenny, I was like, "You just got to make me look as good as Apple's going to make

01:34:08   Federighi look, so good luck." - I know, and the other cheat that they have too is that they set up

01:34:14   in these sunlit hallways, you know, with these full 18-foot floor-to-ceiling windows of California

01:34:24   sunshine in the genuine architectural marvel that is the Apple Park Ring. - And I think they've just

01:34:31   got a ton of lights on the back. It's just like, yeah, it's not fair. And, you know, he just,

01:34:36   he looks great. But, I mean, I think I looked pretty good too. Kenny did a great job. - Yeah,

01:34:42   you did. - Yeah, Kenny did it. Yeah, it's, but yeah, that was super, I was stressed. I was so

01:34:48   stressed because I was like, "How am I going to do this in 15 minutes?" And it's like,

01:34:51   you know, it's hard because it was about a topic. And I was excited to talk about that topic. But

01:34:59   you also have access to somebody where, like, you want to talk about so many other topics, like,

01:35:05   like, on this sort of podcast I have with you. It's like, how many topics do I talk about a year

01:35:10   where I'm like, if I could just ask someone at Apple on the record, why there are no power

01:35:15   buttons, you know, or, and I did, some things didn't make it to the edit, but like, you know,

01:35:21   I just had to get in a couple questions. Like, so do you charge your iPhone, I just want to ask,

01:35:25   like, do you charge your iPhone with a cord? - Yeah, and he does. - He does. He's a cord guy.

01:35:31   And I was like, I just need to know that for my own, you know, because like, yeah, wireless

01:35:37   charging kind of sucks, right? Like, I mean, we didn't really get into that because I was so

01:35:41   pressed for time, but I was just like, you know, so a couple of questions I did throw in, I wasted

01:35:45   probably a minute on like some things I was interested in and some of those made it in.

01:35:49   But yeah, it's tough. It's, I mean, it's, you got to go in with a strategy. I had a very clear

01:35:55   strategy. I had my minutes blocked out. I was keeping an eye on the time. You know, I got to

01:35:59   keep it moving. I got to get to the stuff that I want to get to. And of course, like, it's,

01:36:04   you know, that's, I think something that's so, some of the best interviewers, I mean,

01:36:07   you watch Oprah and you're just like, it's amazing because you know she has a strategy.

01:36:11   You know, she is so careful about where she's starting and where she's going, but it does,

01:36:17   you know, the viewer doesn't know that. - No, I watched the Oprah interview with

01:36:24   the prince and what's her name? Markle. - Yeah. Yeah. - And I watched it and I was thinking,

01:36:31   it was, you know, a couple months ago, I guess at this point, but I was already starting to worry

01:36:35   about my WWDC article and I did. And I was like, let me think about this at that sort of study.

01:36:42   And I'm like, oh my God, this is why Oprah is a billionaire. She's, it's like,

01:36:52   just like the butter on a hot piece of bread and it's just, it's like, it's just so smooth and it

01:36:59   just disappears. And it's like, oh yeah, but she has a total strategy and agenda here. And she is

01:37:05   totally, it seems like they're driving this because she's letting them talk. And they're

01:37:10   saying these things that became major celebrity news worldwide, but it's like, oh, Oprah is totally

01:37:17   driving this bus. - Yeah. I mean, interviewing is such an art and I do a lot of onstage interviewing

01:37:23   or pre-pandemic was on stage, just like you're saying, like, you know, you're up on stage

01:37:27   and that's a very different art than doing it on Zoom. I mean, this is like, you know, this video

01:37:33   calling interview type of thing is very hard. It's not like podcasts where there's like this

01:37:41   conversation, it just, it's very stifling I find because you don't have the audience, it's somewhere

01:37:47   between the like podcast and the stage, but you don't have the audience to really drive and you

01:37:54   don't know what the reactions are. And I felt like, you know, I was getting pretty good on stage.

01:37:59   We do a lot of these big tech events at the journal and I get to interview some of the biggest

01:38:03   people. And I was like, okay, I'm finding my voice here. I'm really moving. And then we all are under

01:38:08   lockdown and I'm like, I'm horrible at this. - The audience reactions in a live audience to me

01:38:14   is like, it's like when I, I haven't played, when I used to play basketball and it's like,

01:38:22   well, there's a timeout a couple minutes in and I'm already sweaty and thirsty and there's water

01:38:28   and I can get, you know, it's like, ah, now I'm thirsty. Whereas doing it without the audience

01:38:33   over Zoom or WebEx or whatever is like playing a whole game of basketball without ever getting a

01:38:39   glass of water. It's like, it's like those, those audience reactions, laughter or applause or

01:38:45   anything like that. It's like, it's like an emotional, just slurp of water when you're thirsty.

01:38:52   - Totally. And you can read it. Like, even if there isn't that it's like, okay, people seem

01:38:57   really interested in this topic or, you know, like it might not inform like a follow-up question,

01:39:03   but it definitely can inform like, I should stay here or I should move to something else.

01:39:07   So, yeah. - Well, I laughed at your interview with Federighi though, because you did work in

01:39:15   funny questions. You literally asked him if it's true that Tim Cook calls him Superman.

01:39:20   - I mean, he said no, but I don't believe him. - And then you, I thought it was very interesting

01:39:28   and a good use of your time, even though it, you know, the topic was app tracking transparency.

01:39:33   And I feel like, you know, you got four solid minutes of it in, you challenged Craig to do it.

01:39:39   He was like, how quickly can you do it? And he was like, I don't know. I think I could do it in

01:39:42   six seconds. And it was like six and a half seconds. You got the stuff, but then you asked

01:39:48   about, there was a recent Tim Cook interview where he was asked, do you, you know, do you think you'll

01:39:53   still be CEO of Apple 10 years from now? And he said, well, 10 years is a long time, probably not,

01:39:59   but I have no plans right now. And, you know, he is, I think 61 or so, 60, you know, and so

01:40:07   that makes sense, you know, that 10 years from now he'd be 71 and, you know, he might retire between

01:40:11   now and then. But you, yeah. So you, but you get, you know, locked into thinking Tim Cook is the

01:40:20   CEO of Apple, right? And he's been there now since Steve Jobs died in 2011. So he's been there 10

01:40:28   years, you know, and I guess, you know, some somewhere 15, 16, 17 to 20 year run would be a

01:40:34   heck of a run at, you know, good, you know, especially for a high pressure job. But then it

01:40:42   does, it makes you wonder, well, who's next? And the, Jeff Williams would be the, well, if they do

01:40:49   the same thing before where the COO takes over as CEO, it would be Jeff Williams. But Jeff Williams

01:40:54   is like only like one year younger than Tim Cook. And so you asked, you know, Federighi, would you

01:41:00   do it? I thought his answer was so funny, but also sort of like, hmm. Right. Yeah, like, I'm a big

01:41:09   shot. You know, like, yeah, I mean, he, what did he say? That's insanity. Yeah. He's like, ah,

01:41:15   that's insanity. Come on. No way. Yeah. Yeah. John Siracusa. He's so charming.

01:41:21   He's so super charming. I mean, that's another thing, you know, as you're,

01:41:26   you have a strategy as the interviewer, but then you know the interviewee has a strategy.

01:41:32   And they, you know, it was so clear to me. Well, first of all, he's just so good. I mean,

01:41:37   he's just such a well, he's so well spoken, but also clearly believes in what he's saying. Right?

01:41:44   Like, I mean, I can't say how many executives I interview and just like, oh, you're reading your

01:41:49   marketing points. Okay. And so yeah, I mean, that like the first, I mean, it was really 10 minutes

01:41:56   on ATT. And then I bought some extra time, you know, asking privacy in general, and then some

01:42:01   of these extra questions. But I mean, he was, you could tell, like, prepared, but also knew sort of

01:42:08   what he wanted to get across. Yeah, I don't think he was ready for you to ask him if he might be the

01:42:13   next CEO of Apple. So, Siracusa on the ATP podcast, when that came out, said that he thought he would

01:42:21   have thought going in that Craig Federighi sees himself as having achieved the pinnacle because

01:42:25   he's an engine. He is an engineer. I mean, he really, he really gets it. And so, you know,

01:42:29   he and he's a software engineer in particular, he's not a hardware person. So, as a software

01:42:35   person who's interested in in the sort of software Apple makes, how can you go higher than being the

01:42:42   head of software, all software for Apple, and that he's already, you know, gotten there. And then,

01:42:46   like Siracusa said, when he watched your video, it was sort of like, huh, maybe he is thinking

01:42:51   about it. Like, there was just something about the answer that was just... Well, I think he's a

01:42:56   builder. Yeah. Right. And so I think that's, Tim Cook, I mean, is an amazing builder, but more of

01:43:04   this vision. It's not the visionaries, the strategy guy. And just map it out. And it's kind of amazing

01:43:11   where he's come from and what he's done with the strategy of the company. But you could get the

01:43:17   sense that the next leader would be more of a visionary and a builder of product. Like, you

01:43:23   could, right? Like, yeah, exactly. Like the engineer type, right? Let me take one last break

01:43:29   here. Thank our fourth and final sponsor. This one's not a new sponsor. It's our good friends

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01:45:04   for their continuing support of the show. Last licks here, last topics. I'm curious if you—I

01:45:14   know you had a recent column that I somehow missed, and then you pointed out to me, I was

01:45:18   like, "Oh, this is exactly what I needed to know, the air tags versus tile." Oh yeah, air tags. That

01:45:24   feels like 10 years ago, but it was just like two or three weeks ago that I had a drug dog in my

01:45:30   house. This is just another day. What do you use? Marco and I talked about this last week. I don't

01:45:38   know if it's a pandemic thing because I'm still not really going a lot of places. I haven't

01:45:43   traveled. It's like now I'm going back to restaurants and stuff, but it's like I don't

01:45:47   have anything yet to put a tracker on. I do because—so I have started going back to the office

01:45:55   a bit. We shoot some of the videos there, and I've been doing some conferences from there. So

01:45:59   my work ID, I constantly lose. And I mean, even just finding it after months of not going to the

01:46:07   office. So it's on my work ID. It's on my keys, and I put one in my wallet. Right. And you can't

01:46:13   even use it. I'm sure you can't even get in the door to say, "I lost my work ID." You need that

01:46:19   work ID. Yeah, exactly. And there's people there, but I just set my license and get this and get

01:46:25   that security thing. But also I lose my keys a lot. I don't lose them, but I just misplace them.

01:46:31   I feel like I am not a keys loser. And I don't know why because I lose all sorts of other things.

01:46:40   I lose my Apple Pencil all the time. God, I would instantly—insta, you know, $200 for a new Apple

01:46:46   Pencil with the U1 chip so that I could make it beep. Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.

01:46:50   I could do it. I would just buy it, and there are no other features. It's just the same Apple

01:46:56   Pencil. It has no new features, no extra resolution, no higher frame rate. But you can

01:47:01   use Find My to find it with precision. It would be an insta-buy for me because—

01:47:06   And by the way, I think it is total BS that they didn't put it in the remote. I saw the comment

01:47:11   from—I forget the name of the executive—that it's now too big to lose. That engineer or whoever,

01:47:20   the executive, does not have a kid, let me tell you that. My son is constantly hiding the remotes.

01:47:27   I asked about that in a briefing after the event. I was like, "Just double-checking,

01:47:33   the remote doesn't have a U1 chip?" And they acted—and it's the typical Apple reaction,

01:47:38   where it's like their action was like—it was as though I asked, "Hey, does it work

01:47:43   in a complete vacuum, like if I took it into outer space?" You know, like a totally random,

01:47:51   weird question like, "We did not build this to go into a complete vacuum. We don't know."

01:47:56   That's what they acted like when I asked about the U1 chip. They're like, "Who would ever need

01:48:02   that for a skinny little remote control?" It's like, no, I think that's a good question. And

01:48:09   it's interesting because I feel like they got asked enough where they came up with a new answer,

01:48:13   and instead of acting like it's a crazy question, they're like, "Oh, nobody—this is a big remote,

01:48:19   so it'll never get lost."

01:48:20   Rebekah Demirel So yeah, it was an interview with Mobile Syrup

01:48:23   and Apple VP Tim Turdow—

01:48:27   Tim "I think that's how you pronounce it."

01:48:32   Rebekah "It says it's too thick to easily lose in the couch, and we don't need to.

01:48:34   We're super excited about what we're doing with the U1 and yeah, with the changes we've made to

01:48:40   the Siri remote, including making it a bit bigger so it won't fall in your couch cushions as much."

01:48:46   Tim "How old is your son?"

01:48:49   Rebekah "He's three and a half. He's turning four next two weeks."

01:48:52   Tim "Yeah, so he takes the remote all over the place. So it's so funny."

01:48:55   Rebekah "But he also is hiding things. He thinks it's funny to hide. He hid my wife's engagement

01:48:59   ring the other day."

01:49:00   Tim "Oh my god."

01:49:01   Rebekah "Yeah, we're like, where is it? He's like, "I'm not telling."

01:49:05   Oh, you know, it's like this is all—it's like everything is hide and seek.

01:49:10   Tim "I don't miss that."

01:49:11   Rebekah "I should have done the whole video with him if I wanted to show his face a lot, but yeah."

01:49:15   Tim "That's—you know what, it's only funny because I presume he eventually revealed the location."

01:49:21   Rebekah "He did. He did. Yeah."

01:49:24   Tim "No, we used to have a problem with Jonas when he was that age, even younger. I think it was just

01:49:29   like from like as soon as he could walk where he wanted the TV remote and he didn't even know how

01:49:37   to use it. But he could see that that was the thing to have, right? If we're in front of the TV,

01:49:42   the thing you want is the remote and he'd want it. And then it would be like, "OK, you can have it."

01:49:47   And then it's like you turn your head and two and three year olds just like to wander off. And guess

01:49:53   what he wanders off with? The remote. Rebekah "Yeah. I mean, we have three Apple TV remotes

01:49:58   in our living room. Two old Siri remotes. Actually, I have four in the house, but two old Siri,

01:50:05   the trackpad one plus that function one that I mentioned before."

01:50:09   Tim "Right."

01:50:09   Rebekah "Because like we don't ever know where they're going."

01:50:12   Tim "And it's funny too because when Jonas was that age, our remote was the TiVo remote,

01:50:18   the big P – we still have a TiVo, we still use it. But the big peanut TiVo remote,

01:50:24   it can wander off, but it certainly is nowhere near as hideable as an Apple remote. Like you

01:50:30   can't slip it somewhere. It's a big three-dimensional peanut shape. So there were

01:50:36   only so many places he could go with it. But putting it in the toy box there, there you go.

01:50:40   How do you find that? Good luck."

01:50:42   Rebekah "Right. Right. But overall, I really like the AirTags and I think the tile conversation is

01:50:49   an interesting one. I know you had mentioned in your post one of the reasons, I think it was in

01:50:55   context of why they may not go into the Find My ecosystem or use that platform. And I did have a

01:51:02   couple of discussions with tile and even with the CEO right before I was finishing the column and

01:51:07   it's very clear. They just feel like they'd have to give up so much control and they don't want to

01:51:12   do that." Jonas "Yeah, they're not just selling the trackers. They are also building their own

01:51:17   network and that participating in Find My is completely contrary to that. I'm not sympathetic

01:51:26   to their anti-competitive arguments about Apple because I don't think it's wrong for the platform

01:51:33   owner like Apple to build this into the platform because I think it belongs there. And I think it's

01:51:37   always the case with innovators. People think of innovative ideas, but if the innovative idea

01:51:44   belongs in the parent product and it's going to be popular, it's going to end up built in.

01:51:50   I mean, Benedict Evans has tweeted this several times, but it used to be – he always tweets up

01:51:55   this old ad from 1983 where there was this product you could buy for $300. It was a software product

01:52:01   that would let you print your Lotus spreadsheets in landscape because by default Lotus only printed

01:52:08   them vertical. And you could print them in landscape and then if you had like a dot matrix

01:52:14   printer, it could be really wide, right? It could just keep spewing across. You could make a really

01:52:19   super wide spreadsheet. That was their product. Well, guess what? Eventually, every spreadsheet,

01:52:26   everything that you can ever print with added a little button that you can switch between

01:52:31   landscape and horizontal, right? Of course it got built in. But when Lotus built it in,

01:52:36   this company was like, "Hey, you're ripping off our idea." So I'm sympathetic, but I don't think –

01:52:43   but on the other hand, I don't blame Tile for not participating in Find My because I do see that

01:52:47   strategically they want to own their own network of location. Yeah. And I mean, I've been thinking a

01:52:52   lot about this and I'm writing a piece pre-WWDC about the Apple garden, the walled garden. And

01:53:00   really thinking about what's the harm, right? Because we've been hearing a lot about it. We

01:53:06   heard about it through the Epic case and certainly there's a lot of, you know, when you think about

01:53:10   the developer situation around the App Store, that is a harm sometimes to consumers, but certainly

01:53:17   to developers. And that's a conversation that is, in some ways, I view as separate.

01:53:21   But when you think about that Apple keeps building some of this into its own platforms, whether it be

01:53:26   some of the services, whether it be some of the software features, whether it be accessories that

01:53:31   can work better, what ends up being the consumer harm? What is bad for us, right? And I don't want

01:53:39   to give away too much of the video, but I may have found myself at a garden and it is beautiful in

01:53:44   there, right? And so I've been thinking – I mean, I'd ask you, what do you feel? What is bad for us?

01:53:55   I think it's complicated. I think we could do another two-hour show just about that.

01:53:59   But I think that the key thing is that sometimes

01:54:02   technologists forget that more – there are always trade-offs with power and more, right? And so

01:54:13   it is great that on the Mac you can just download stuff from anywhere and you can just go to Google

01:54:18   and get a copy of Chrome and it's this entirely alternate browser with its own browser engine

01:54:23   and you don't have to get it – you can't get it through the App Store because that's against the

01:54:28   App Store rule. Even on the Mac, you can't go through the App Store if you're doing the stuff

01:54:32   that Chrome does, but you can just install it on your Mac and it's great. And you can't do that on

01:54:38   the iPhone. The only way that they can have Chrome is to go through the App Store and they have to

01:54:41   use Apple's WebKit engine. And there are limits to that and there are features that the real Chrome

01:54:47   has on the desktop that Chrome can't have on iOS because of that. And you're missing out on those

01:54:51   features and technologists see, well, then that's – therefore, that's bad and Apple's being bad.

01:54:56   But on the other hand, there's benefits to it where you cannot install a browser that's going

01:55:02   to chew up your battery the way Chrome has on and off over the years, right? There's benefits to it.

01:55:08   And Chrome does this thing that they run in the background to update Chrome and there was a whole

01:55:13   thing where Lauren Brikter found that the background agent was like crazily running up the CPU.

01:55:20   The fact that you can't do anything on iOS to mess up your iOS device is a huge feature. It's a huge,

01:55:28   huge feature and it's the thing that people learned, especially on Windows, don't install

01:55:34   software because if you install software, you're going to mess up your computer. And the fact that

01:55:39   you can install anything you want from the App Store and it'll never mess up your computer and

01:55:43   if you don't like it, you just tap and hold on it, hit the X button and every trace of it is gone and

01:55:49   there's nothing left behind that's technically possible to be running in the background.

01:55:54   That's a feature. So that to me is the positive aspects of being in a walled garden, right?

01:56:00   And I guess that's what you're getting at is that technologists say walled garden and they always

01:56:05   mean it as bad. It's bad and limiting. You're in a walled garden. It's not good. And no, but

01:56:11   actually it can be really nice and peaceful and calm and safe. Now you're getting, you're taking

01:56:17   my piece from next week. So I will come back on the show and then just to bring it also full

01:56:21   circle. I just was rapidly, did you hear my magic keyboard typing? I'm taking notes on what you're

01:56:27   saying for my piece. So there you go. That's great. See now, now listen, we got to keep this in

01:56:33   on the show. We got to keep those keyboard noises in because then everybody who listens to my show,

01:56:37   when they see your video, they'll see that's where the ideas came from. Anyway,

01:56:42   Joanna. We shot yesterday. I will say we shot yesterday. I have a sunburn.

01:56:46   Also allergies. I actually made it through this whole show without

01:56:49   telling you how high I am on allergy drugs. And not making you think I'm like a crazy person.

01:56:57   I don't think there's any difference from the regular Joanna to be honest.

01:57:00   There really isn't. Joanna, always a pleasure to have you on the show. Thanks. Thanks for being

01:57:04   here. Everybody of course can read your work at the Wall Street Journal and on Twitter at Joanna

01:57:11   Stern. Yeah. And Instagram. I'm really trying to build the Instagram. I keep saying like,

01:57:16   I'm trying to build the Instagram, but then I never post on Instagram. So please come follow

01:57:19   me on Instagram where I will never post. And you're the same username there.

01:57:23   All right. There you go. Thank you so much. Thank you.