The Talk Show

306: ‘A Total Landscaping’, With Mike Monteiro


00:00:00   Do you know one of the most delicious little details of this is that

00:00:04   Wikipedia now has to do a redirect because they previously had an article Trump impeachment

00:00:10   Yeah

00:00:13   Which impeachment did you mean I

00:00:18   Did you see that? Did you see the the the dojo tweet? I don't think so. I just tweeted this out

00:00:26   Friend of mine found it. It's a Don Trump

00:00:29   junior tweet from

00:00:32   2016 dear Clinton's, you know, it's deplorable being impeached

00:00:38   Hashtag basket of horrible page. Oh man, but yeah amidst all of this news. Did you see the story today?

00:00:47   I want to start with some light fare. Do you see the story the story today about Jared and Ivanka's?

00:00:53   Secret Service detail not being allowed to use the restrooms in their home

00:00:56   No, yeah, so there's a story in the Washington Post. I will put this in the show notes

00:01:02   I promise but the basic gist is they have a very large home in a very nice neighborhood in Washington and they've

00:01:08   Forbid they've they forbade the Secret Service from using their restrooms and the Secret Service therefore

00:01:15   Rented a basement studio apartment somewhere on their block just to have access to the toilet and it cost

00:01:22   $100,000 a month so over $100,000

00:01:25   Since 2017, you know what I hate about that

00:01:28   What I hate about that is that it almost humanizes them I mean you've had work done in your home no we have

00:01:36   You want do you want people taking dumps in your bathroom? You know, we're lucky

00:01:41   We you know the the new place where we have a bunch of restrooms, you know, we've got powder rooms on every floor

00:01:47   I mean, that's the way you make a house like when I grew up we had one toilet, you know

00:01:50   Or actually we had one in the basement. Yeah, the basement one was

00:01:53   You know not good

00:01:57   Not comfortable. I found I found a

00:02:00   Rifle in the drop ceiling of our basement toilet when I was a teenager

00:02:05   Did you know who's it was?

00:02:08   Your brothers probably yeah, I was my brothers

00:02:11   Because you know like a normal teenager I was that's where I stashed right porn. That's a good hiding spot

00:02:18   I've worn it is it's the best hiding spot. So and it turns out that that that's where he was stashing his gun

00:02:25   Anyway, so it but lower in this story

00:02:30   And again, I like to filter these things through a okay

00:02:35   What if it was somebody I liked, you know, what if it wasn't the Kushner's if it was, you know

00:02:40   Hey Obama's or somebody is it unreasonable not to want the Secret Service to use your restroom now now part of the problem

00:02:46   I think the optics problem for them is that it's a very large house apparently with a lot of restrooms so they wouldn't it

00:02:53   quite possibly they could have made arrangements that they could have used a

00:02:57   Restroom and not really disturb the field

00:03:00   The Obama's would have totally let them you well listen to this here. I'm quoting from this story

00:03:06   they had a porta-potty for a while and

00:03:08   The neighbors out in the sidewalk and the neighbors raised a stink because I guess the porta-potty raises a stink

00:03:16   And then it did so the porta-potty this is from the story was the agency's initial solution to the protective details dilemma

00:03:23   But it was removed in the face of the neighborhood's protests after that according to the law enforcement

00:03:28   Officials the agents began using a bathroom in a garage at the Obama's house

00:03:34   Which the former no former president's protective detail had turned into a command post

00:03:40   The Obama's did not use the garage, you know, I guess they don't drive

00:03:44   So the extra traffic to and from the command post caused no problem

00:03:48   Yet this solution too was short-lived

00:03:51   after a Secret Service supervisor from the Trump Kushner detail

00:03:56   Left an unpleasant mess in the Obama bathroom at some point before the fall of 2017

00:04:03   according to a person briefed on the event

00:04:06   That that prompted the leaders of the Obama detail to ban the agents up the street from ever returning

00:04:15   You can't that's embarrassing. Can you even imagine?

00:04:18   How do you I mean you briefed on the event the event

00:04:24   That's that's a call with with a boss that you never want to have

00:04:29   so Ted

00:04:32   You know, we've had some complaints about you wrecking a bathroom and let's see who's let me check my notes here the Obama's bathroom

00:04:40   I need more details about this event. I need an entire story about this

00:04:47   This needs well, I'm thinking if I'm Secret Service

00:04:51   And I'm using Kushner's bathroom. I'm

00:04:55   wrecking it

00:04:57   I'm wrecking it on purpose. Yeah, you would be going to Taco Bell beforehand

00:05:06   Well, I'm like I'm like shoving yams in the in the toilet like fuck these people fuck these people fuck their plumbing

00:05:13   Fuck everything about them. I'm gonna wreck this back. We've all had moments, you know with an unpleasant

00:05:20   We've all had unfortunate incidents with toilets and and of course, you know, yeah, you know and you're in a guest

00:05:28   You may not know you might just you might you might have a moment where you think well

00:05:32   There's got to be a plunger everybody keeps a plunger

00:05:35   You gotta have a plunger, you know, I'm amazed I'm amazed

00:05:39   How often there isn't a plunger and you know, look I like to I like to leave a clean bowl. Yeah

00:05:46   Whatever I do. I like to leave a clean bowl because one I don't want people thinking that you know

00:05:51   I wasn't house-trained and and two it's just common courtesy for the for you know, the next writer. It's

00:05:57   And and that that means that means sometimes the plunger always a brush

00:06:04   You got to how can you you got to it? You don't want to leave any evidence of what you doing there

00:06:09   You know, nobody nobody should have to come in to a bathroom and see what somebody else did

00:06:16   Briefed on the event

00:06:20   I

00:06:22   Want I would like the great Olivia and nosy to research this as this incident and the Obama's garage

00:06:29   Restroom as her next

00:06:32   Investigation, you know did you saw I'm sure her her

00:06:35   Her piece on the four seasons total landscaping, correct? I

00:06:40   Love that. She should win an award for digging into sometimes

00:06:45   To me there's two stories to write. There's the big the big story right the trunk of the tree and

00:06:52   then the leaves the individual leaves and

00:06:56   There's so many stories

00:06:59   There's so many stories that could be written here now this the four seasons total landscaping I

00:07:04   Presume everybody listening is vaguely familiar with this. This was in the immediate aftermath of the election and

00:07:12   Donald Trump's lawyer Rudy Giuliani called a press conference

00:07:17   that Trump tweeted out as being at the four seasons Philadelphia and

00:07:23   And then had technically true technically then sent out a correction for seasons total landscaping exclamation mark

00:07:31   All but between that between the tweet and the correction there was a tweet from from the four seasons

00:07:38   Yeah, that was basically fuck. No

00:07:40   well

00:07:42   You curse yeah, you can't

00:07:45   Okay

00:07:47   But you're you're from Philadelphia

00:07:49   And so it it I am it and specifically you grew up in the Northeast which is actually where forces use

00:07:55   No, don't say that don't say that that's a hate crime. I

00:07:58   Grew up in all well, well, you're familiar with the North. Oh, I I'm very familiar with the Northeast and I'm very familiar

00:08:07   With the neighborhood that four seasons total landscaping is in because there's a jail there

00:08:16   That wasn't mentioned in the in the remarks they everybody just mentioned the porn shop and the crematorium across the street

00:08:23   Well, there's a jail in that neighborhood and that's where we used to go to visit my brother the brother who?

00:08:29   stashed a rifle

00:08:32   Exactly along with your girly magazines

00:08:35   It's it, you know your standard fuck around and find out Philadelphia story

00:08:40   so my favorite little side note of the four seasons total landscaping thing is and you know

00:08:46   Center City Philadelphia is very small for a major metropolitan city. It's it's

00:08:50   It literally walkable because where Center City Philadelphia is with the handshake deal that that William Penn had with the

00:08:58   This I guess they were the school

00:09:00   Native Americans, but you know

00:09:02   It was what whatever he could walk in an afternoon would be the the city and he walked from river to river

00:09:08   But it's it's tiny it

00:09:11   It broke that deal later

00:09:12   Well, we would not have to go into that but but it's it is by definition will walkable Center City

00:09:19   It is very well. We were close to all of this

00:09:23   Craziness during the vote counting. I mean, you know, we don't live quite in the neighborhood

00:09:29   But the Convention Center is you know, I don't know. It's like a mile away or something. It's very close

00:09:34   It's right around the corner from hop sing actually

00:09:37   Yeah, I know that area really well. That's where the gallery right right, which is

00:09:42   undergoing a major

00:09:44   reconstruction, you know sort of modernizing

00:09:47   When this was going on it seemed crazy that it would be at the Four Seasons

00:09:53   the Four Seasons used to be on the parkway, but then they've they were now on the the penthouse floors of the new Comcast Tower

00:10:01   So like the top two or three floors of the tallest new tallest building in Center City is the Four Seasons

00:10:09   It just seemed crazy why in the world, you know for the few minutes where it seemed like they would be doing this

00:10:15   It seemed like how is this even possible and at the time there were restrictions in this city

00:10:19   You you couldn't hold a press conference indoors and then when the total landscaping thing came out

00:10:24   This is my favorite thing my wife who I believe, you know, you're familiar with with my wife

00:10:28   Still it's still Amy Jane my first my first life that surprises me

00:10:33   Nobody's more surprised than me quite honestly. Oh, I believe really that's it's really

00:10:39   I feel like I'm over, you know

00:10:40   But anyway, my favorite thing was when Trump tweeted Four Seasons total landscaping

00:10:46   Amy was on on Twitter at the time and she said what does that even mean and

00:10:50   she thought it meant it was some kind of jargon like

00:10:55   carpet bagging or

00:10:58   gerrymandering, you know that like a landscaping is some kind of

00:11:03   Old-timey hundred-year-old term for for a way to get cheated out of an election and wouldn't it be Trump?

00:11:09   Like wouldn't it if that was a you know, like a if it was a landscaping Trump would call it a total landscaping, right?

00:11:16   It's the best the best way. It was a total landscaping, but it turns out it was actually

00:11:22   Not it was actually a landscaping company in the in the Northeast

00:11:26   so, um

00:11:30   Shit, I can't remember if that was last week or this week. Remember when he he went to

00:11:34   He went to Alamo, Texas. It was like what two days ago

00:11:38   Was that two days ago Jesus? He totally meant to be going to the Alamo in San Antonio, right?

00:11:45   I had to write that was the same ring and it in fact his

00:11:50   His dummies on the internet. They all thought that this is it because they're you know people screenshotted this

00:11:57   you know like the the people who got kicked off reddit and they what do they have the dot the Donald dot win or whatever they

00:12:03   Reformed right? They were all celebrating it. They're like this, you know, the these kooks who think that you know that that he's somehow

00:12:10   Is gonna unveil evidence like ah

00:12:13   Genius his last stand will be at the Alamo do it. Yeah, I'll know yeah

00:12:18   Take David Crockett. He's lucky. He didn't have it like the Alamo rent a car at

00:12:22   Reagan National International Airport

00:12:26   Jesus Christ, that would have been amazing. I

00:12:28   I really hope somebody floated the rent the Alamo rent a car stand as an idea

00:12:37   What a shit shit on

00:12:42   Really? It's just unbelievable

00:12:44   What a total absolute shit. I want to talk to you. Well, let me let me take a break first

00:12:51   I'll do she gave me on your pocket. Yeah

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00:14:49   All right. I wanted to have you on the show

00:14:51   because I I've been wondering about this with Twitter and kicking Trump off the platform and I I heard a

00:14:59   Have been on the side of they should kick him off for a while now

00:15:05   I thought it should have happened a while ago and

00:15:07   You know, I might agree. Well, here's the thing

00:15:11   I was thinking about who I should have on the show to talk to you about and I want someone who's just going to agree

00:15:16   With me and I'm thinking I should try to find somebody who thinks that he shouldn't be kicked off and you can't I can't find anybody

00:15:23   At this point and then it I realized the better debate would be to have it

00:15:27   You on because you felt more strongly about it than I did and thought, you know

00:15:35   so

00:15:36   Don't tell me when you think they should have kicked him off the show

00:15:39   I mean, it's fair to say that you have been a leading critic of Twitter's

00:15:44   Continuing support for this president being on their platform. I

00:15:48   Mean, I've been I've been one of the louder ones. I don't know if it's amounted to hill of beans

00:15:55   But I'm certainly not afraid to yell

00:15:58   And I've been so I've been bugging Twitter about this

00:16:07   Since I I guess since he entered the the race in 2016

00:16:15   Because I mean I was you know

00:16:18   Everybody remembers the scene of him coming down, you know, the the golden escalator at Trump Tower and immediately declaring that

00:16:27   You know Mexicans were rapists and that he was running for president

00:16:30   at the same time he was amassing a ton of Twitter followers and

00:16:36   Did you remember his first tweet no, I don't

00:16:43   It was something about hey, I'm gonna be on some late-night talk show

00:16:48   I forget which one but hey, I'm gonna be on some late-night talk show

00:16:53   Coming, you know come and watch that was his first tweet

00:16:57   And for a while, I mean that was that was the kind of tweet that he would send he

00:17:03   remember he had that that whole thing with Robert Pattinson and

00:17:07   About you know, you shouldn't be dating Chris right? Right?

00:17:11   It was that kind of like so celebrity bull right

00:17:13   And then he kind of stumbled into hey, what if I make a couple of really racist we're nice

00:17:20   And his follower count started going up

00:17:23   And then it exploded so

00:17:26   like any good

00:17:29   Sociopath he started doing the thing that got him the attention

00:17:34   So stuff got more more virulent more virulent more more more racist more sexist

00:17:40   He started getting more followers and at the same time

00:17:43   Remember at the same time I mean this was back when Twitter was talking about like holy shit

00:17:48   We should probably just sell the Facebook or you know

00:17:51   We're running out of cash here. We know what we're gonna do and all of a sudden they discover this this secret potion

00:17:58   of this this seven 70 year old

00:18:01   xenophobe

00:18:04   And and they decide we're gonna ride this guy to the bank

00:18:09   then he decides to run for president and

00:18:11   We were like equal parts mocking him like oh my god

00:18:16   What an idiot this is gonna be hilarious

00:18:19   Like I remember at this point John Stewart was still doing the Daily Show

00:18:24   And I remember John doing a segment with where he was like, thank you. Thank you on behalf of comedians everywhere

00:18:31   Thank you for running again

00:18:33   Because this is exactly what we need

00:18:35   You know to make the jokes

00:18:38   so so it was like 50% that and 50% of

00:18:42   People who are like no, wait a minute

00:18:45   This is actually terrifying

00:18:48   Because this is

00:18:51   This idiot actually knows how to reach

00:18:55   Like the worst of the worst and speak in their language and fire them up and he has absolutely

00:19:02   No problem saying what they believe to hear

00:19:07   And

00:19:08   So he was on Twitter and he was building this massive following and he was saying all of this terribly racist sexist stuff

00:19:15   and he was attacking people personally and

00:19:18   It was getting dangerous

00:19:22   Twitter

00:19:23   Rather than you know following the rules its own guidelines that it all that were already in print

00:19:30   Rather than doing that they kept moving the goalposts to excuse

00:19:35   What he was saying?

00:19:37   Because that was getting them that all-important engagement that they wanted

00:19:41   Right. It was just it was it it it drove cement helped cement their place in the the

00:19:49   He was making them money. It was making them money in our collective minds, you know Trump tweets, you know

00:19:55   It really did it drive Twitter as a source of news, you know, like the fact what he tweeted was the news

00:20:04   I mean history is gonna remember, you know when history talks about Trump the word tweet will be in the first sentence

00:20:12   I've seen people

00:20:14   Talking about you know, like well, do you think he ever could have been president without Twitter? I I don't even think it's close

00:20:20   I don't even think it's a close call because I don't think he ever would have got propelled into politics without Twitter

00:20:27   Right, like it's like what you were just saying. Oh, he used to be talking about, you know

00:20:32   The the type of stuff that he you know, a game show host would tweet about because that's what he was. Yeah

00:20:38   Yeah, and and I'm sure that all of the racist xenophobic shit that he studies that he spews out on Twitter

00:20:45   It was you know shit that he said at home. I'm not saying Twitter made him that way

00:20:50   I'm saying that Twitter gave him one hell of a bullhorn

00:20:54   He really got propelled into politics on the issue of whether Barack Obama was born in

00:21:01   Kenya and was therefore on

00:21:03   Unfit to be the president under the Constitution

00:21:07   That was his first big flip from you know standard

00:21:13   Used car salesman bullshit into politics was the birther is an angle

00:21:19   And he got a tremendous amount of attention for that and it's really hard to imagine how he did it how he would have done

00:21:26   It without Twitter

00:21:27   I mean, I guess he could have any did call in to Fox News shows and be on the telephone talking to

00:21:32   Whoever was the you know, Bill O'Reilly or whoever was the host, you know before he got kicked off the network

00:21:38   But it it really was yeah

00:21:42   Why was why was Donald Trump considered an authority on the issue of the quote-unquote controversy over?

00:21:49   birtherism it's because of his tweets right like

00:21:53   Donald Trump would not have been president without Twitter and

00:21:57   Twitter had everything they needed to stop Donald Trump from becoming president back in 2016

00:22:06   by just enforcing their own rules I

00:22:09   Think about you know, and it is he what he did tweet was against the rules

00:22:16   I don't see you know, and I do think that's important but I and carving out this exception that

00:22:23   Okay, you

00:22:25   everybody else has to follow these rules, but we will make an exception for

00:22:28   state leaders is

00:22:31   Almost the worst thing you could do if there's anybody if there's one group that should have to follow the rules

00:22:37   It should be state leaders, you know, and if there's one group that certainly doesn't need to be amplified

00:22:43   It's state leaders

00:22:45   I mean

00:22:46   You know when you when you when you listen to some of the arguments that people have made about why we he needs to be

00:22:51   There it's like so well because we need to know what he thinks

00:22:55   We've known what every president has thought right without it better

00:23:00   They they they literally have the world's they literally have a press room in their house

00:23:07   It's true, right in their house never you don't look back at the previous

00:23:13   44 presidents and say that they were silenced because they didn't have Twitter or

00:23:18   You know didn't use it or you know, no, but nope. It's it's not true

00:23:22   to me

00:23:24   and it's very clear now that he's gone and I mean my argument and

00:23:29   on maybe it was okay, you know, I'll try to take Twitter side on this and say that they I

00:23:37   Think they're what was the saying from the Revolutionary War where there was a battle and the guy said, you know

00:23:42   Don't fire - you can see the whites of their eyes. All right, everybody grows up here in that legend

00:23:47   and I think there's that's sort of the mindset Twitter had of

00:23:52   You know

00:23:55   He did things that could be justified for kicking him off

00:23:59   Before yeah, but wait wait until it's even worse. Wait until it's even worse. Wait until it's even worse

00:24:05   and then all of a sudden he's telling these

00:24:07   Armed insurrectionists to go storm the Capitol and they do it and people get killed, you know

00:24:13   A cop got his brains bashed in with with a fire extinguisher. I mean and it was

00:24:18   Perilously close to them bursting in and and getting access to members of Congress

00:24:24   and and so

00:24:26   Clearly this is over the line and and to me there might be if to play devil's advocate to you. There's some

00:24:32   Some sense in my mind a feeling that okay now it's it this you you cannot take the other side

00:24:41   You know, if you do you're supporting an armed insurrection

00:24:44   So, yeah when and I mean they're still doing it we still had like what almost 200

00:24:51   Congress people yesterday vote to not invite him for trying to get them killed

00:24:57   Yeah

00:24:59   you know

00:25:01   the the the way to till they see the whites of their eyes things reminds me of

00:25:06   So my whole family voted for him

00:25:10   And when I was trying to talk sense into him

00:25:14   back in 2016 I

00:25:16   was like

00:25:18   Because it's because we're immigrants. We're an immigrant family

00:25:20   And I was like how the hell can you vote for this clown?

00:25:25   He's I mean, he's he's he's a xenophobia hates not us. Not us was the first thing that they told me

00:25:31   He didn't mean us

00:25:33   he means those other in the black and brown ones and

00:25:38   You know not, you know European immigrants

00:25:40   And I mean when we talk about like

00:25:45   Twitter what you know waiting to see how much worse it could get and waiting to collect the body of evidence

00:25:53   Decisions like this are generally made by people who are on that last line of protection

00:26:01   otherwise known as privilege of

00:26:04   being hurt

00:26:07   So let's let him make fun of these people let's let him make fun of these people

00:26:10   Let's let him make fun of these people. Okay. Now he's getting a little too close to us

00:26:15   There okay, we've seen him take down we've seen him take down like eight groups now he's getting a little close

00:26:22   All right. Now it's dangerous

00:26:24   And that's one of the things that pisses me off about that that sort of thinking

00:26:28   It's like we'll let him go ahead and use other people

00:26:32   At well, let's test let's test on them and then if he gets close to us

00:26:37   Then we'll do something

00:26:41   It and there's there another analogy that I've been thinking about is if you if you spot a kid playing with matches you

00:26:49   You take the matches away right away. You don't wait until they actually start a fire right like right and it I

00:26:58   Don't I know that there's news coming out even as we speak a week later

00:27:03   There's still news coming out about what exactly went on and and which groups were actually not just a bunch of yahoos

00:27:09   Walking around the halls, but actually had a plot last week

00:27:14   It's it's worse than it looked and I really feel that when it by the time we're done

00:27:19   Reporting reading the reports on this we're gonna see how perilously close we were to a truly profound

00:27:26   Disaster like I still don't know that it makes you know, there was a path to make him president

00:27:31   But I there was definitely a path where members of Congress get killed on that day. Yeah

00:27:37   No, they were I mean, I think we're eventually gonna see like those those line drawing diagrams

00:27:43   Like bird's-eye view of like here's a congressperson and here's like the six inches of drywall separating them

00:27:50   from this jackass

00:27:53   this

00:27:55   carrying like five weapons

00:27:57   There's there's an argument that Jack Dorsey has too much Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg

00:28:03   have too much power because they do run their companies and

00:28:07   Ultimately, it was it's their call right at Zuckerberg who signed his name to the post that said he's permanently banned from Facebook

00:28:14   And you know, obviously Jack was the one that you've been petitioning. I mean and you you've you've talked to Jack, right?

00:28:22   I mean I did I talked to him

00:28:26   Face to face in January of 2017

00:28:28   We met in person

00:28:32   After I'd been

00:28:34   Giving him. Well, I mean her I was harassing right? I was harassing him on Twitter about this and

00:28:40   he agreed to me and

00:28:43   we met and we talked about this and I walked out of there terrified why

00:28:50   Because I saw

00:28:54   fear I

00:28:56   saw somebody who was so

00:28:58   Incredibly terrified of this situation that he had somehow gotten himself in

00:29:05   it's it's it's like he

00:29:08   He accidentally got himself in

00:29:12   This incredibly powerful position, I mean

00:29:18   Hold on a second. Hold on

00:29:23   Chelsea's leaving for work and I want to hug her. Goodbye you edit right? Yeah. Yeah, we do. Yeah

00:29:28   I'll see you after work

00:29:37   Sorry about that, let me see if I can start this off, okay

00:29:44   So he had gotten himself into like almost

00:29:50   Accidentally like he he wanted to do like a messaging app for first for for bike messengers. Remember that yeah, totally

00:29:57   Yeah, and and here he is now

00:30:00   Accidentally, he forced gumped himself

00:30:03   Into this this position of incredible power. He had absolutely no idea how to handle it or what to do with it

00:30:11   he doesn't have the strongest moral code in the world and

00:30:19   Everybody was telling him how awesome he was and

00:30:21   He had apparently

00:30:24   Done away with anybody who was a good enough

00:30:28   friend or or

00:30:31   Whatever to smack him upside the head when he needed a good smacking which everyone needs

00:30:37   and

00:30:39   He somehow found himself in charge of the

00:30:44   The platform that the the most powerful person in the world was using thing to communicate

00:30:50   And he didn't know how to control him and he was terrified the time to do it

00:30:57   Was at the beginning like when he was a game show host posting

00:31:02   Racist conspiracy theories about Obama's birthplace. That was the time to do it stopped it right there

00:31:09   You just say this imagine where we would be right now

00:31:13   Seriously

00:31:15   Imagine what me and you would be doing right now

00:31:17   If Jack Dorsey had done his job back in 2016

00:31:23   if he had if he had in

00:31:25   If he had enforced his own

00:31:28   Guidelines his own agreed-to guidelines on this guy in 2016

00:31:35   Imagine where where me and you would be right now. Imagine what you'd be doing. Imagine what your kid would be doing

00:31:43   And I mean this goes for every listener out there. Imagine what your life has been

00:31:48   the last four years the fear and the anxiety and the terror and

00:31:54   finally like this an unchecked pandemic

00:31:58   So much worse response to the pandemic of any other country in the world that it is ridiculous. It's it's absurd

00:32:06   I mean my dad's sister died of kovat my aunt died of kovat

00:32:11   I mean, that's why I'm not looking for I

00:32:14   Terrible, but I mean it's it to say that it is real to me is it's

00:32:18   profound, you know it it

00:32:22   We're arguing we're arguing whether it's real which is ridiculous

00:32:27   That's that to me is the that's the unacceptable aspect of it, right the

00:32:32   The using it, you know to put it in a political terms the big lie, right?

00:32:37   So it's a big lie that this election was rigged in any way

00:32:41   this was actually, you know arguably one of the the most secure elections in the history of

00:32:47   Human democracy, you know the opposite it couldn't be more untrue. It's a big lie

00:32:54   And and that to me is the effectiveness like because on the one hand I could

00:33:01   We're talking about the fact that the president of the United States this president the next president

00:33:07   Previous presidents don't need Twitter to get their message out, right?

00:33:11   but so so to me this whole argument about free speech and that he's being quote unquote silenced is

00:33:18   It's sophistry. They're they're arguing about free speech and

00:33:24   silencing people because they know that people there's widespread support for free speech and and

00:33:31   tolerating

00:33:33   The viewpoints that we disagree with right? I mean at some point at some point when we're done like

00:33:41   Counting the bodies and doing that important work and getting this pandemic under control

00:33:46   We're gonna start like we're gonna start doing like like our top

00:33:51   500 things ruined by this administration list

00:33:56   There were a lot of them

00:33:58   What it's done to the issue of free speech?

00:34:02   Is in the top ten for me

00:34:04   I'm a free speech advocate

00:34:06   Right and and me too. I really am and and so I would think right were

00:34:11   and

00:34:13   The cynical way that it's being talked about now by both

00:34:18   You know the jackasses on the right and the jackasses in tech companies and the other way what what they have

00:34:26   Turned free speech into the mutation the horrid mutation

00:34:32   That's their definition of free speech is so

00:34:35   counter

00:34:37   To what it was actually intended to be and what it actually still is legally

00:34:42   that it's it's it's

00:34:46   Really fucked with with the whole idea of what free speech is about

00:34:51   I mean, so so basically free speech means the government can't tell you can't put you you can't put this podcast up

00:34:58   John we don't like what you say. It's the government's doing it. I mean, it's such an important distinction

00:35:03   I mean this I mean the first line of the First Amendment is Congress shall Congress shall pass

00:35:10   none

00:35:12   Something like that, right, but it applies to Congress

00:35:16   But this is your podcast and you can have on whoever you want you can talk about whatever you want and

00:35:26   You know people can decide whether to listen to it or not listen to it

00:35:30   If you go off on some some weird right-wing tangent somebody can decide well, you know what? I don't want to listen to that

00:35:38   I don't want to be on that. I don't want to host that. I don't want to be associated with that

00:35:42   None of those things none of those things are about free speech

00:35:46   right and so in fact that I would argue that that that me telling you I

00:35:54   Won't host your hateful podcast anymore is more covered by free speech

00:35:58   Right than you being able to write because there's there's agency involved in being you know sovereignty

00:36:06   You know that that you get to say what you want to say

00:36:09   But the restaurant owner also gets to say if you're gonna say that in my restaurant you're out, you know

00:36:15   right, that's that's that's you know, you're you're you're

00:36:19   Ability to use use racial slurs to address the waitstaff at a restaurant

00:36:25   It is you're right you're not going to be arrested for it, you know

00:36:32   But the restaurant has a right and if they want to be the sort of restaurant people want to go to

00:36:36   They're going to tell you you're not welcome there anymore

00:36:40   Yeah, I mean that's what I would say that they have an obligation to do that. There was a friend sent me a

00:36:48   Story it seems like one of those things that's gone around but I had never seen it before but it was just a story about

00:36:53   a guide sitting in a bar

00:36:55   and a guy sits next to him and

00:36:58   You know stranger comes up to the bar and he has like Nazi patches on his jacket and the bartender just immediately says out

00:37:06   Get out get the hell out and the guy said what what you know, and he said just get out you're out

00:37:13   A guy hadn't even opened his mouth hadn't said anything was by himself the guy who's still at the bar says what was that about?

00:37:19   You know, I mean he's like you saw his patches and he says yeah, but he didn't you know, he didn't say anything

00:37:24   and

00:37:26   he said you let a Nazi in and

00:37:30   Next thing, you know, you're running a Nazi bar because what happens is the next time he comes back. He's a nice guy

00:37:37   He doesn't make any trouble. He comes back with a friend and they don't make any trouble

00:37:42   Then they come back with two friends and maybe the third or fourth guy does start making a little trouble and does start saying things

00:37:48   And next thing, you know, the whole place is covered with Nazis. You got to get them out. Yeah, and

00:37:53   That to me is is the power of Twitter

00:38:00   Removing him from the platform and it's not about silencing him. It's about saying and reflecting

00:38:08   Not just Jack Dorsey's opinion that he isn't suited to be on the platform, but society's

00:38:15   Perspective that you cannot you you you cannot from a position of power

00:38:19   Convince people of serious lies. That's it's not acceptable

00:38:24   You know by not booting him

00:38:28   What Jack was telling everybody who?

00:38:32   Trump was harassing that he didn't give a shit about them, right?

00:38:36   No, very true. And and that is it it's implicitly saying that it's that everything he was doing is acceptable

00:38:42   Not that he agreed. Nobody is gonna say that Jack Dorsey agrees with those viewpoints, but that they are acceptable

00:38:50   discourse

00:38:52   You know you yeah, I I mean if I if I own a bar I

00:38:57   Gotta make sure that everybody there is having a nice time

00:39:03   That's my job I invited the man I opened the door I said hey come on in I'll sell you drinks and in exchange you hang

00:39:08   Out and you give me money for those drinks

00:39:10   And I'll you know create this nice environment for you to come and drink in and you know

00:39:16   I got a lookout for those folks

00:39:18   So when the Nazi walks in I mean you kick them out

00:39:23   because you don't want them to come back with his friends obviously, but you also kick them out because

00:39:30   There are other people in bar right and they're having a good time and they they certainly have a right not to feel threatened

00:39:36   You know or offended, you know

00:39:38   And you know if the Nazi should turn to like a black patron at the bar and start, you know

00:39:46   Spouting out racial shit. What would I mean right now?

00:39:50   Let's like let's say Jack is your bartender Jack has been you know

00:39:54   Telling those patrons. Well, he has a right to say that

00:39:57   There's

00:39:59   You know, nobody goes back to that bar you don't go back to that bar no, right

00:40:04   It's then that's how it becomes a Nazi bar because no one else will go

00:40:07   So Nikki Haley who?

00:40:10   Was the UN ambassador under Trump and one of the few people she's former governor of South Carolina

00:40:17   One of the few people involved in this whole administration who has a reputation intact. She tweeted

00:40:24   a my opinion of her is certainly lower but you know her opinion in the world of US politics, you know

00:40:32   She tweeted after after Twitter

00:40:35   Gave him the boot the permanent boot

00:40:38   Here's the tweet silencing people not to mention the president of the US is what happens in China not our country

00:40:47   hashtag unbelievable

00:40:49   And I I've I talked about this on my other show with dithering with Ben Thompson, but I I this

00:40:56   Infuriates me this one tweet

00:40:58   encapsulates

00:41:00   I know it's infuriating but I I salute her for so succinctly espousing this

00:41:07   viewpoint of silence and

00:41:10   Somebody named Jamil Jaffer tweeted a perfect response

00:41:15   Another way to look at this is that forcing publishers to publish the government speech is what happens in China, right?

00:41:22   And yes

00:41:22   And that's good that comes to the issue of agency that that Jack Dorsey should not feel obligated to host Trump

00:41:29   Spouting, you know, that's that's the opposite of it. But this right it it

00:41:36   when I see these people say silencing if you replace it with

00:41:42   Shaming and disgracing it works. What they're saying is we don't want to be silenced

00:41:47   What they really mean is we don't want these viewpoints that we have

00:41:52   To be shameful and disgraceful. We don't want this to be we don't want this to be considered shameful discourse

00:41:59   We want this to be considered acceptable

00:42:01   right

00:42:03   Their argument isn't about free speech. It's about consequences

00:42:08   Like you're saying they don't want to have to bear the consequences of what they say

00:42:13   I'm so angry Mike

00:42:16   And you know we lose we lose because we take the bait for four years. We have been taking the bait

00:42:24   Trump says hey the Venezuelans stole our election

00:42:28   Which is like what the fuck? Where did that come from? That's almost inspired

00:42:34   It's almost inspired that you could come up with something that inane Hugo Shep

00:42:39   But all of its puke Oh Chavez who died ten years ago

00:42:43   Well, I did I don't know how can we be sure all of a sudden every newsroom in America is

00:42:52   Devoting like like 30 40 50

00:42:56   News news reporting hours to to to seeing whether this is true or not

00:43:05   Right I

00:43:07   Mean his his his evil evil evil genius

00:43:12   Is that he realized people will chase every inanity that comes out of his mouth?

00:43:19   and

00:43:22   We're idiots because you know look at us. We're still arguing about free speech

00:43:26   And this issue has absolutely zero to do with free speech

00:43:34   But yet that's that's that's what we're arguing about here

00:43:39   So we already took the bait we already in terms of the power

00:43:43   That they say this unchecked power that the Zuckerberg and Dorsey have over their platforms and that it's too concentrated in the hands of a few

00:43:51   That it is true that they have enormous power. I mean there's no question about it, but whether it's it's

00:44:01   Unherald you know or

00:44:03   Unprecedented I I would disagree

00:44:05   I would say that the era when I grew up when you and I were kids when there were only three broadcast networks on television

00:44:12   And every single adult almost every single adult in the nation is addicted to television to some degree

00:44:19   Yeah, when there's only three networks that they had at least as much collective power on the but

00:44:26   But they wouldn't use it you a crackpot racist the John Birch Society didn't get on

00:44:31   ABC Sunday morning shows and and

00:44:34   Start spouting their lunacy they kept it off. You know it was

00:44:39   Yeah, I mean I would certainly argue that somebody like Walter Cronkite had a ton of right hour, but he also had a more code

00:44:46   It it definitely had a tremendous amount of power, but it and you know I mean it was no joke

00:44:52   I mean he was like the most you know the Gallup poll would show that he was the most respected person in America

00:44:57   After he retired you know for years yeah

00:45:01   The I you know it is dangerous and and to have power in the hands

00:45:08   Tremendous power in the hands of private citizens, but that's that's that's the way the system works

00:45:13   I mean

00:45:13   And I I don't know what what regulation a government regulation of Facebook and Twitter and social networks should be it's it's hard

00:45:22   hard to say I mean I I

00:45:25   Would argue that the two white dudes on a podcast?

00:45:29   Should not be the ones deciding

00:45:32   Well luckily we won't be

00:45:35   Because I don't know what they are either

00:45:39   But I know I know that we need something to me the the powerful thing that is happening at this moment as we speak

00:45:47   This week is and a tremendous shifting in public opinion

00:45:51   I mean Trump has done so much. What are you doing popping pills over there?

00:45:55   Yeah, Trump. Yeah like Katie it became a running gag

00:46:01   I mean John Oliver John Oliver made we got him into a meme

00:46:06   That he would do something or say something that it was so scandalous and outrageous to right thinking people

00:46:13   And and we would say we got him right now

00:46:17   I mean most famously the the access Hollywood tape leaking before the election right right seemed like how could this how can he possibly?

00:46:24   Still get elected when he's caught on tape saying such ridiculous things

00:46:29   truly profoundly just

00:46:32   horrible

00:46:34   Offensive and you know we got him we got him

00:46:37   but this time we did this time we did get him because all of these times went and and he'd do all these things and

00:46:44   his

00:46:46   Support remained almost unchanged. I mean we've we've had a year-long

00:46:50   pandemic that he told us

00:46:54   Repeatedly on camera. I mean that's the thing he does all these things on camera told us

00:46:58   It was no worse than the flu

00:47:00   It was gonna wash away in April when the when the days get longer and it gets a little bit little

00:47:06   Nicer weather and the northern hemisphere. It'll just go away

00:47:09   I mean it just ridiculous things and his support did not go down

00:47:14   Until until this week now his support has truly taken. It's like an 11 or 12 point dive

00:47:19   Well his support didn't change and

00:47:23   what else what the other things that didn't change was he remained white and he remained a racist and

00:47:30   That's what people were voting for

00:47:34   Let me take a break here and thank our next sponsor. Oh, man am I happy to talk about this

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00:49:57   You know

00:49:59   I walked away for a second and I came back and you were talking about 15 to 20 minute

00:50:03   Casts and I thought well, he's not talking about this

00:50:05   You know my other show with Ben the dithering we do 15 minutes on the button every every every every day

00:50:11   Three times a week. That's that's the sweet. It's if people love it. I really should

00:50:16   It's it does seem like it's a sweet spot. It's a really great

00:50:20   I can't tell you how many people have written to me and said and they're always very nice because they're fans

00:50:25   You know people who read my website and you know, some people love long talk shows

00:50:30   You know, they love that this show is two hours long because they have you know, they just love listening to long podcasts

00:50:35   But there's other people who you know

00:50:37   They're listening to us right now at like 2x speed and we sound like Alvin and the chipmunks having like intercourse

00:50:44   But there are so many people love the fact that dithering is only 15 minutes long because they don't want a long talk show

00:50:50   so it to me it's just one of those things where the sweet spot is either be really long or

00:50:55   Really short one way or the other

00:51:00   Did you see him did you see Jack's

00:51:02   Bullshit, no, I did not I

00:51:05   Had enough I last night I had enough I got off the internet. I was just I can't take it

00:51:10   I couldn't take watching these Republicans vote against impeachment couldn't take it

00:51:15   Oh, I couldn't I didn't watch any of that last night the Wizard of Bitcoin got back and

00:51:20   Made his first public statements since booting Trump

00:51:26   He said it's he while he agreed

00:51:29   with some difficulty

00:51:32   With having to kick Trump off he he believes it sets a very dangerous precedent

00:51:39   And then he started he went into a weird Bitcoin promo. No, are you serious? Yeah

00:51:47   No, go look. It's all there

00:51:50   He went into it and then he started talking about blockchain and

00:51:56   And here's the scary part

00:51:58   He started talking about

00:52:02   Decentralized platforms. Mm-hmm and how that's the future of all this shit

00:52:09   And in combination with I mean, did you see Cheryl Sandburg talking about how you know, none of this

00:52:18   None of this capital riot planning happened on Facebook. No, I did not see that either. Oh, yeah, she said that

00:52:26   She said that so so you got people at Facebook saying nah, it didn't happen here. We don't have a problem and

00:52:34   You got Jack saying well, the only problem with our platform is that I'm still too close to the blame

00:52:40   And

00:52:44   You know people have been talking about like this is text moment of reckoning

00:52:50   Because you know, you've got you know, all of this shit happening on Twitter and Facebook and and did they say

00:52:57   parlay or parlor

00:52:59   So we would be hard. Yeah, cuz they're dumb. Yeah, thank you

00:53:03   And you've got they but they have things there

00:53:07   You could have a parlay with somebody on parlor, but they pronounce the name of the the platform is parlor

00:53:16   You know, you know sometimes waking up and deciding to be you know, it's a decision that I'm gonna wake up and be dumb

00:53:23   It's a decision that people make

00:53:25   I

00:53:27   Mean, this is text moment of reckoning

00:53:29   Like all of this shit that's happening now is built is happening because you know, we built shit tools

00:53:36   and

00:53:38   we didn't care to manage those tools and we got them too big to manage in some cases and

00:53:45   Badly managed in other cases. It never really gave a shit about managing

00:53:49   Them in many of the cases and now what we're hearing from

00:53:54   to the two biggest platforms

00:53:56   arguably

00:53:59   Is yeah, we still don't see a problem here

00:54:01   And that scares the hell out of me. I

00:54:04   Is we're not we're not done. I mean it's January 20th is not is not the goal line

00:54:12   It's not like the end of the race. We're not done here

00:54:17   I

00:54:18   Mean we're getting we're we're getting one

00:54:21   We're getting the big one of the biggest idiots away from the nuclear codes that happens January 20th, and that's all very appreciated

00:54:28   appreciated

00:54:31   But these idiots that he riled up and they were always they were always

00:54:36   these people

00:54:39   But they never felt quite as powerful as they did when he was in charge and now they're riled up

00:54:45   there to me a clear place to draw the line of

00:54:51   enforcement is

00:54:54   To reaffirm our

00:54:56   and it sounds so

00:54:59   highfalutin, but to reaffirm our culture and our society's commitment to

00:55:05   the truth being

00:55:07   important

00:55:09   Facts right it our society's never been coming out, but but our

00:55:14   It's it's been our North Store North Star though, right? We've failed in so many ways

00:55:21   but we keep that's the direction that we keep going right and and it is it is a

00:55:27   It goes back to the Enlightenment and it ties like political truths

00:55:34   Like was this election fair did Joe Biden fairly win the election?

00:55:40   it it's every bit the same sort of thinking that that got garlic Galileo locked up by the

00:55:47   Catholic Church that he was doing science right and

00:55:51   telling people things they didn't want to hear and

00:55:54   Whether he was whether what he said was true or not and the science could be backed up by actual facts and observations

00:56:03   Didn't matter right? It's it's the same sort of thing and it's

00:56:07   It's like where do you draw the line, you know?

00:56:09   In terms of what sort of

00:56:13   Stuff going forward will not be tolerated on a platform like Twitter and it's not about disagreeing right?

00:56:21   it's not that that is the the the

00:56:24   What's the Voltaire line that I disagree with you, but I will you know fight to the end to support your right to say it

00:56:31   It

00:56:33   What can't be tolerated is promoting things that are obviously not true that has to be that it cannot be tolerated

00:56:43   Do you remember when the secretary said he was okay with Holocaust? Yes, I do

00:56:50   That was

00:56:53   terrifying

00:56:54   right it fucking

00:56:56   it's really hard to imagine that and and

00:57:01   It's such a slow boil, right?

00:57:03   It's it were all frogs who've been in this slowly boiling pot and now here we are

00:57:09   You know getting burned but it like when you and I were kids like could you imagine?

00:57:14   You it would be hard to describe Facebook, but it would be fair to say, you know, who's Mark Zuckerberg

00:57:21   He's he is a billionaire

00:57:23   self-made billionaire who was in control of a platform a computer platform where people can

00:57:29   Post things right that that's a description you could take back to your

00:57:34   1985 self and it would make sure you can

00:57:38   Right, you can leave messages for people and this billionaire

00:57:42   Who is very famous and his platform is

00:57:46   exceedingly popular with billions of users

00:57:49   espouses the viewpoint that Holocaust denial is

00:57:52   While he doesn't certainly doesn't endorse it and doesn't agree with it. It's it's

00:57:58   Tolerable speech on the platform. You wouldn't believe it you did that in the past that wouldn't that's it's hard to think of a

00:58:05   of an issue that that should be less tolerated right and and wouldn't be like if you

00:58:12   It's hard for me to even articulate how ridiculous that is, but he said it and he really meant it

00:58:20   It was like his thoughtful considered

00:58:22   Idea

00:58:26   You know, yeah he did he said that and I guess that he said that and and we were in and here's here's

00:58:33   What kills me about that?

00:58:35   People kept working for him, I'm with you on that and I've gotten and people I

00:58:42   mean people

00:58:45   kept building that platform I

00:58:48   Mean I can you know, I'm thinking if I was like a worker on that line

00:58:55   and and if this were like a meat packing plant and

00:59:00   We're down there like in the rendering pit

00:59:03   And you know we get word from on high like guess what?

00:59:09   Stop through stop separating the good meat from the bad meat. We're gonna sell it all I

00:59:15   Would hope that me and you working next to each other were turning each other and say like what the hell what

00:59:25   No, we couldn't have said that

00:59:27   Let's go let's double check because we're not gonna do that John we can't sell bad meat to the people

00:59:33   It's I mean even for selfish reasons. What if some of this bad meat ends up on my kids plate?

00:59:40   I I guess that part of what makes this argument have legs this free speech that

00:59:46   This argument that it is an issue of free speech. Is that Zuckerberg's?

00:59:51   Take on that issue was about Facebook as a public

00:59:56   square right it was

00:59:58   Him arguing that because he supports free speech

01:00:02   Right like like, you know it that that he was this is it any wonder that critics now?

01:00:09   of of his decision to

01:00:12   to kick Trump off the platform are calling it a

01:00:18   Violation of free speech because Zuckerberg himself was promoting that mindset that way of thinking about Facebook right like

01:00:25   It's if Zuckerberg wants his platform to be considered the public square

01:00:32   Then his position of leadership should be up to a vote by the public

01:00:37   the same as any other

01:00:41   public office

01:00:44   But it's not is it no it's not it's you know and and it's

01:00:49   Just artful dancing

01:00:51   You know that it's sophistry to argue otherwise and it's in a way that we wouldn't tolerate it in real life

01:00:58   You really wouldn't we wouldn't tolerate. I mean a workplace one way

01:01:02   one way to look at this is that all these platforms kicked him off when

01:01:08   When he incited all that shit at the Capitol, right?

01:01:15   Another way to look at it is that they kicked him off when they were done milking the husk

01:01:20   Because

01:01:26   What happened at the Capitol was atrocious I

01:01:30   mean I'm noting there's I

01:01:34   Wouldn't want to talk to anybody who would debate that point

01:01:37   But if you look at what he's done in four years in power

01:01:43   There have been so many other moments that were just as atrocious and that you could have seen that

01:01:49   This is where it was inevitably going

01:01:51   Something yeah violent. Yeah, right

01:01:54   and the fact that that those didn't give

01:01:58   Jack Dorsey or Mark Zuckerberg cause

01:02:02   Is disgrace right

01:02:09   So I think it was a combination of you know, there was some math

01:02:13   There was some math done there and it was it was accounting math. This is terrible times. Well, we're done with them anyway

01:02:21   Alright

01:02:23   Yeah, it's it there's you know it I

01:02:29   just I've

01:02:31   Reused the phrase better late than never more times than I should have probably in the in the last week and I still agree with it

01:02:38   I don't think that they should have said well now it's too late. He's only got ten days left in office

01:02:43   Why kick him off now? We'll wait till he's out

01:02:45   I don't you know, I think it was better that they did it when they did than not having done it at all

01:02:50   Totally agreed totally agree. Can you I mean this isn't the amount of damage that he could do in ten days

01:02:58   It's unbelievable. I mean just just think back. I mean when when

01:03:04   When was the impeachment vote the first one?

01:03:10   There was one yesterday

01:03:12   John a president was impeached in the United States yesterday

01:03:16   Does it feel like that? Oh, it doesn't it's bizarre. I

01:03:21   Mean when we were kids

01:03:25   There was you know, the Buchanan impeachment

01:03:27   Which you know is something weird and that happened back then when you know men wore wigs and had

01:03:37   Tom I am Tom sideburns

01:03:39   Yeah, lamb chop sideburns and then all of a sudden there was the Clinton impeachment you're like, whoa

01:03:45   Well, and there was Nixon right? Well, we grew up in the post Nixon world

01:03:49   Right, right, except Nixon wasn't I mean wasn't impeached. He had the decency to quit

01:03:56   But yeah, then we lived through the Clinton impeachment. It was like holy shit. This is such a big deal. This may be like

01:04:04   This is such a big moment

01:04:07   And

01:04:09   In the last year we've lived through two more it's same guy

01:04:14   And yesterday's was just like hi. Yeah, he was impeached. What are we having for dinner?

01:04:21   It's very true. I honestly I was at the end of my rope yesterday. I

01:04:26   Like

01:04:31   Overton's window has so much plywood on it at this point. It's

01:04:35   but to me the thing to keep coming back to as a first principle is a

01:04:39   Commitment to truth and that the spreading of lies simply cannot be tolerated and that's that's where it all starts

01:04:45   I mean, there are all sorts of political

01:04:47   Viewpoints that people can espouse that I disagree with

01:04:51   vehemently, but I I would you know, I would support your ability to espouse them but not not spreading lies

01:05:01   Yeah, I mean because that's the other thing too about this and and one thing I've been saying to people

01:05:06   and trying to think about and trying to do myself in

01:05:09   when I'm writing about this and talking about it is

01:05:13   to target

01:05:16   the liars

01:05:18   Not the people who believe the lies that doesn't mean I forgive the people who?

01:05:23   Who believed the lie that this election is rigged and that they're not complicit in it and that they don't bear responsibility, you know, but to me

01:05:31   It's the people who knowingly spread the lies and promoted this that deserve our ire because it's the bigger problem

01:05:37   Well the bigger bigger problem do you want to talk about the bigger problem, what do you think?

01:05:43   We were ready, I mean we'll believe anything that these idiots say because

01:05:48   ultimately, we're freaked out as fuck that

01:05:53   We really like the idea of a white America

01:05:59   And it's going away and

01:06:01   So we'll happily elect anybody who keeps talking about that

01:06:07   And we'll believe anything they have to say you think that's partly really

01:06:12   Like the how how did this happen?

01:06:15   How how would how was how in the world did this mob?

01:06:19   Break into the capital and I feel like the people in well, it's at some places but and why weren't they

01:06:29   You know people have have pointed out

01:06:31   repeatedly this the difference in the nature of

01:06:34   The preparations that in the same city, Washington DC that they did over like in June for Black Lives Matter

01:06:42   Protests and you know had National Guard troops wearing camouflage and body armor

01:06:48   Yeah to protect the the Lincoln Memorial of all they know that's where did somebody had photos of it. You know, it's not even a

01:06:54   Far less. It's just a memorial right? It's just a stat

01:06:58   I heard a

01:07:00   Higher

01:07:04   But so why why weren't why wasn't Congress?

01:07:07   protected similarly for this and I don't think I think part of it is a bit of a

01:07:12   Conspiracy and I think that there are some sympathetic

01:07:14   I mean, you know, we've seen the pictures that some of the police were taking selfies with the people they should have been arresting

01:07:20   but I think I

01:07:23   Because white people can get away

01:07:25   It's because white people can get away with this yet

01:07:29   There's is there any question that with the exact?

01:07:33   If if January 6th had been a Black Lives Matter protest of the same size

01:07:39   You know 10,000 people 15,000 people however many people were there for this protest

01:07:45   That they would have been it would have been an entirely different security setup around

01:07:51   The Capitol it would have been entirely different

01:07:55   The closest body and I mean body

01:07:58   Wouldn't have made it within 50 foot of the Capitol snobs and they would have been shot

01:08:05   Black people attacking the Capitol would have been shot on site. Well, I I was thinking about this

01:08:10   I don't even think that that they would have if they had tried to but they wouldn't have tried and one of the things

01:08:16   while the actual riot was ensuing and we had footage of it and we could see it and then in the days afterwards when

01:08:24   You know the cell phone video and stuff like that came out the thing that's so shocking is how the the perpetrators the mob

01:08:31   They they they weren't scared in the least bit

01:08:34   There was you know, like I saw you've never asked

01:08:39   Oh, they've never had to be I saw firsthand. I saw looting here in in Philadelphia back in June

01:08:45   when the protests went bad and

01:08:51   The one thing it was very clear that the people doing it

01:08:55   were had that nervous energy of

01:08:59   People who thought they might be shot at any moment right like the people just running people just running out of a

01:09:08   modal sporting goods with a fistful of sneakers

01:09:12   Boxes as the sneakers they had that nervous energy where they there was sort of a giddy rush of you know

01:09:21   mayhem

01:09:22   But they also had the nervous energy of people who?

01:09:24   Wouldn't have been the least bit surprised to hear gunshots coming from police officers at any moment. Whereas these the

01:09:31   This crowd who took the capital they were strolling like that the numskull from Florida who stole

01:09:38   Nancy Pelosi's podium he was posing

01:09:41   You know and again, it's not that you know, not even did they think that they'd be arrested over

01:09:48   But there was no fear that they were going to be shot it is so I don't think black lives

01:09:53   Matter black protesters would have never tried this because they they would have assumed they'd be shot

01:09:59   Of course

01:10:02   It is a crazy

01:10:04   It's insane that they because they were white and looked like well

01:10:09   They're certainly the you know, white people certainly wouldn't barge in and storm the Capitol. So, you know, we don't need any extra

01:10:18   Security well, they don't have to they were they're invited in they were invited in

01:10:22   And I don't mean just that day they were invited in the day before they were given tours by some of the Congress people

01:10:28   What did you see stories about that? I've seen some like with this bobert woman

01:10:35   Well, I forget her first name, but she's the one who made the video that went viral

01:10:39   bragging about the fact that she planned to

01:10:42   Carry a this is before you know

01:10:45   before this happened that she was going to

01:10:47   Carry a gun around Congress and became an internet sensation, but I saw that

01:10:53   That I think it was her who brought people in the day before

01:10:57   Yeah, she was giving people tours like the same people who would go go to riot the next day

01:11:02   Well, and then her speech, you know it you have to see it, you know

01:11:07   I I think the the transcript alone doesn't convey the sense of what she's saying

01:11:12   But when she gave a speech during the fight over whether to certify this election

01:11:17   She said I have constituents who were out there right now and the way she said it was very clear

01:11:22   It wasn't just oh, that's an unfortunate way of saying it because she knew she had constituents who were at the protest

01:11:27   She knew that they were coming to storm the Capitol

01:11:29   You know, all you need to know about how fair this election was is

01:11:35   Is how much conservatives are fighting against it?

01:11:39   What explain?

01:11:42   I think this is probably the most fair election we've ever had and I think you know, Georgia supports that

01:11:47   And oh my god

01:11:50   The work that Stacey Abrams did that's unbelievable right is she's it's she's quite possibly one of the most effective

01:11:59   leaders that

01:12:01   In my adult lifetime that we've ever had in our nation it what she did in Georgia is just astounding and it's the diligent

01:12:08   Hard work, right? So for people who don't follow it, she she had it, you know talk about a rigged election

01:12:14   she lost the governor's race in Georgia and

01:12:17   I know that that's sort of the dastardly thing that that Trump has this ability of of saying

01:12:24   you know that because he wants to he he he made lock her up a chant right and

01:12:30   Therefore then when he faces the the law

01:12:35   Come January 21st

01:12:38   He he and his supporters can say that that this is just retribution because

01:12:42   It's you know, same reason that he said lock her up now

01:12:46   They're saying lock him up and it doesn't you know, you can't say that I trust me there make the argument

01:12:51   They'll say you can't say that Hillary Clinton should not have been

01:12:54   Chanted against lock her up and now turn around and say that Trump should be locked up

01:13:00   But that's it's just nonsense because she didn't commit crimes. He did. Yeah, there were no crimes. I mean

01:13:08   Um, I

01:13:09   Believe it was Stacey Abrams who said and if I and if I'm wrong about this quote forgive me

01:13:14   but I believe that she was the one who said

01:13:17   The South is not read the South is suppressed

01:13:22   mm-hmm and

01:13:25   I and she proved that right she proved that in Georgia at least and I I I

01:13:34   Think the the the conservatives issue with this election was that

01:13:39   Holy shit

01:13:41   Our rigging didn't work our rigging

01:13:44   Didn't work

01:13:46   We have been rigging these elections

01:13:48   For

01:13:52   ever and

01:13:54   Somehow this this woman in her and her organization and all of her people

01:14:03   Managed to do like the impossible and

01:14:05   They got all these people to vote who

01:14:09   We didn't want voting. I saw a

01:14:13   Fascinating interview back during remember how long ago was that like that that week between the election and the networks calling it?

01:14:22   officially for Biden I

01:14:24   That was that was 16 years ago

01:14:27   I I was watching MSNBC and I think it was at some point midweek

01:14:33   it was you know in after the election and

01:14:35   Before the networks called it but like at a point where the state of Wisconsin was officially called for Biden

01:14:43   and they had the I forgot doesn't matter what's name is but you know the guy who was in charge of the

01:14:50   Democratic National Committee in Wisconsin on MSNBC and they were congratulating him saying, you know

01:14:56   This was a lot closer than the polls

01:14:58   Were saying Wisconsin would be you did a great job and he just said whoa, whoa. Whoa, let me just say right now

01:15:04   I don't deserve anywhere near as much credit for Wisconsin as you're giving me

01:15:09   Stacey Abrams does and they're like, well, you know, she was running it in Georgia and he goes no you don't understand

01:15:15   she came up here last year in 2019 and

01:15:19   took a look at our organization and

01:15:22   Told us she left us with a plan that we followed to a T and we realized we had no plan, you know

01:15:29   Her she it's not just Georgia she is is really she's like a genius and at an

01:15:38   organizational level of

01:15:41   Following, you know like writing a computer program

01:15:43   Do this do that if this then do this then do this and and do the hard work?

01:15:50   and the thing that is so astounding to me is

01:15:52   That she got to work on this as soon as she had that election stolen from her in Georgia just immediately

01:16:00   No, no time of self-pity. No wallowing just got to work and look at this. It's really unbelievable and so

01:16:08   Biden didn't need any one of these states, right?

01:16:12   Georgia could have been a few thousand votes in the other direction and Trump could have won Georgia and Biden still wins the election

01:16:17   but he needed a bunch and if Georgia hadn't been

01:16:20   For Biden and Wisconsin hadn't and Wisconsin was so close

01:16:24   This guy was saying if Stacey Abrams hadn't helped Wisconsin Democrats in Wisconsin. They would he said we would have lost

01:16:30   There's no question in his mind. I

01:16:33   Mean this is he you know right after the election people people we saw people like well

01:16:40   This isn't the last time we thought it would be

01:16:42   And I was like, holy shit. It was an it was an absolutely

01:16:48   Landslide it had to be a landslide

01:16:50   There was it had to be a landslide to get through all of the barriers and just get to the other side

01:16:58   Yeah, and we were never gonna get to the other side with you know

01:17:03   50 million more votes than the other dude, right?

01:17:08   But it took it took everything

01:17:14   It's I I think it's just so hard to articulate how close we came to

01:17:19   Losing this losing and really losing democracy. I mean, I don't think I don't think so either. I

01:17:25   think yeah, right, we're still in a

01:17:28   Straw house with a bunch of people flicking matches, you know at the walls. Yeah

01:17:34   We just don't have a fire right at the moment

01:17:37   But if if Trump had won man, it's you could see it that what that was it

01:17:41   That was it and I know it sounds like hyperbole and people you know, what I know

01:17:46   You know, uh, you know I in in 2016 in 26

01:17:51   No way 2017. I'm sorry in 2017. I was going around and I was doing a talk

01:17:57   called how to fight fascism and you know mostly like online shit, but

01:18:03   catchy title so I ran with it and

01:18:08   I made mention several times in the talk about you know

01:18:11   fascist activities on lines and everything online and things like that and

01:18:16   After the first time I did it during the Q&A somebody like stood up and they're like you can't just call anyone

01:18:23   You don't like a fascist, right?

01:18:25   and I was like

01:18:28   You know, I'm talking about actual fascists here, right

01:18:35   This isn't just me like picking a dirty word to call people who hurt my feelings

01:18:41   We're talking actual fascists

01:18:45   In see it

01:18:49   People in see it. There's it I

01:18:51   You don't hear it

01:18:53   I don't know why the word sort of disappeared but for a while there people would talk about fanboys and I had this line

01:19:00   You know people would would accuse me of being an Apple fanboy, right? Okay, I lost count of how many times I faced that accusation

01:19:07   And my my my zinger was that I enjoyed collecting

01:19:12   Remarks from people who's the guy who owns the Dallas Mount Mavericks? He's one mark Cuban. Yeah, he's one of them where where

01:19:22   These people's definition of a Mac

01:19:25   Apple or Mac fanboy is somebody

01:19:29   Anybody who was into Apple's devices before they were?

01:19:32   Right, it's like the moment that mark mark

01:19:36   Yeah, Cuban became a Mac user and started espousing how great the platform was but in the past he had accused

01:19:42   You know people of being wrong

01:19:44   It's it's the same sort of mindset where it's like these people they don't acknowledge that we were right that Trump was a deranged

01:19:52   lunatic and a danger a menace to the nation in the world

01:19:57   And they called us what they call it Trump derangement syndrome, right?

01:20:00   And instead of saying huh? You guys were right. This guy was a menace to the world there their perspective is

01:20:07   No, you were still wrong and it was all hyperbole

01:20:10   It's just that I came around to the idea that he's dangerous at the right time, which was

01:20:15   Right when there's a nitwit run running around the halls of Congress with a confederate flag inside the building

01:20:24   Anybody anybody who knew what the hell they were talking about or had any sense of history

01:20:28   Saw this four years ago anymore

01:20:33   You know Sarah Sarah Kensier who wrote Hiding in Plain Sight. Yes Hiding in Plain Sight. Yes

01:20:41   She's amazing. And I mean she's been talking about this shit on Twitter forever and she

01:20:47   Nailed it like she like back when you know Trump started doing his thing

01:20:53   She was like here's what's going to happen piece by piece by piece by piece and it'll happen in this order and all of those things

01:21:01   happened

01:21:01   right, but

01:21:03   It's like there's these it's it's almost like

01:21:07   People are arguing at the meta level saying you you can't call the president fascist

01:21:13   But that's not the argument. Well, you can't it right? That's the thing is it?

01:21:17   it's like it this bizarre viewpoint that it can't be that the president can't be a

01:21:24   Narcissistic sociopath. That's that just can't be yes. It can be it absolutely can be

01:21:29   You know, you know where else I see this a lot

01:21:32   Is is is when guys decide that their friends

01:21:38   Didn't fuck up because they're good guys, right?

01:21:41   right

01:21:44   So you define the person?

01:21:46   And then every action that they take falls under that umbrella

01:21:52   That you've decided that person is versus defining their actions. No, that's a very good analogy

01:21:59   No, it's it's it's how high up in the stack your your priorities are and if they're if so Steve

01:22:05   Steve can do good things and he can do some bad things

01:22:09   And we call Steve on the bad things he does and we praise him for the good things. He does

01:22:15   Rather than Steve's a good guy

01:22:18   therefore

01:22:20   Everything Steve does is good and you hear you hear Trump talking that way about people to like Oh Epstein

01:22:27   Yeah, dude, good, dude. Yeah

01:22:29   One of anybody well one of my favorite

01:22:35   Moments of this whole thing because it really was a light bulb going off in my head was was back when

01:22:41   Woodward's book came out in August talk about something that feels like it was 16 years ago

01:22:46   but Bob Woodward second book comes out and Trump, you know, and it has contains all sorts of scathing just

01:22:52   absolutely scathing

01:22:55   facts about the lunacy of this man and

01:22:58   Trump was talking about his phone calls with Woodward and I guess I think it's because Woodward had had tapes, right?

01:23:06   He taped all the phone calls

01:23:08   and

01:23:09   He's playing I think he was on the Colbert show and Woodward is playing a tape of Trump talking to him and he's like

01:23:16   just tell me Bob, is it a good book and

01:23:18   What Trump meant clearly about a good book is whether it was flattering to him or not

01:23:25   It had nothing to do with is it is it actually interesting? Is it historically significant reporting?

01:23:31   Is it well written are the sentences good or even is it printed?

01:23:36   Well, is it a nice book to hold what he thinks a good book is is a book that was

01:23:41   Flattering to him and that's it. Of course

01:23:45   Yeah

01:23:47   Very fair very fair to me very fair said nice things

01:23:50   And he's even said to him. He's like your last book. It was terrible

01:23:54   It was a terrible book and I'm telling you Bob if you write a good book, it'll sell trust me

01:23:58   That's what people want to read. Yeah a

01:24:00   Book telling you the world how great he is

01:24:03   Speaking of books. Yeah. Well, let me take a break and

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01:25:29   Let's talk about your book you have a new book how many books have you written Mike?

01:25:32   This is number four

01:25:36   What in and the name of the new book is

01:25:39   The collected anger I love that I love the cover are you sending me a copy I don't have it yet

01:25:45   Yeah, I'm absolutely sending you a copy

01:25:48   Can we talk about this typeface I?

01:25:52   Look oh, did you design the cover? Did you do the cover I?

01:25:56   did I

01:25:59   Mean I I'm only talking about the typeface because I want to give props to the type designer

01:26:04   Otherwise I would I would be yelling at you for starting a conversation about a book by talking about a typeface

01:26:09   The the typeface is Bayard how do you spell that god? I hope I'm pronouncing that right spell it

01:26:18   Be a why a RD a why a RD I would say Bayard

01:26:24   Bayard and it's by vocal type and

01:26:29   vocal type I

01:26:33   Think vocal type is just one person

01:26:35   tray

01:26:38   And but in case they're not I'll keep saying they and referring to vocal type

01:26:45   Vocal type is making typefaces based on

01:26:52   Civil rights signs and a lettering style of that era

01:26:57   Yeah, and they're beautiful

01:27:00   I mean not only are the typefaces beautiful, but the fonts themselves. They've done a really fantastic job

01:27:07   Making you know quality like technically speaking

01:27:12   Open types often you know they're they're visually stunning and

01:27:18   Technically robust here's the thing about this typeface that I and we can talk about the book more

01:27:25   but the thing about this typeface III I would love to

01:27:27   just

01:27:30   You know give you I you know you and I we are publicly we we give each other a hard time, right?

01:27:35   We bust each other's balls

01:27:37   I would love to bust your balls about it

01:27:39   But I can't because it's just it is the perfect font for your voice it is

01:27:45   Somehow it is you it's hard to believe that this typeface wasn't made just for you to use on this book

01:27:53   It is well. What's there um I?

01:27:58   You know considering that considering where it came from and its history

01:28:02   I'm honored, but you would say that and I'm mostly I'm relieved that I haven't embarrassed it

01:28:09   So what is the book about the subtitle is essays about design for an unwilling audience explain?

01:28:16   This is the book that you put together when you've been sitting at home for 10 months under quarantine

01:28:27   You can barely put two words together to write anything new

01:28:31   and

01:28:34   You start reading over your old stuff

01:28:36   and

01:28:39   Realizing that ain't some of this old stuff is pretty good, and it's scattered all over the internet and

01:28:47   Who knows how long the Internet's going to be around?

01:28:54   And there was definitely I mean that was definitely a concern during the campaign

01:29:00   That you know we might all be living in caves eating nuts and berries and at that point. I wanted you to have a book

01:29:07   It's it's nowhere near as funny as it would have sounded years ago, but it is still funny

01:29:15   That's sad how close we came well anyway, I really I just wanted to put all the old stuff together in a volume

01:29:24   and

01:29:25   If if you've read the other three books

01:29:28   One thank you and two some of this may sound familiar

01:29:34   Because the the way that I

01:29:38   Do the way that I write everything is I start with an essay?

01:29:43   Or what we used to call blog posts

01:29:48   You start with an essay and then at some point some of them were like hey wait a minute

01:29:54   that's I want to turn that one in with talk or

01:29:56   That one is actually let's blow that up into a whole book where that one may be the chapter of a book

01:30:04   so they kind of become like Lego pieces and

01:30:08   You know you break up the essays and you know recombine them with other things

01:30:17   So they've all been

01:30:19   Most some of them have come out have come out as parts of books

01:30:23   If you've seen a talk here and there some of this will sound familiar

01:30:29   But this is all that stuff in its original essay form

01:30:34   Where can people find this book?

01:30:37   They can go everywhere everywhere my preferred method is if you go to bookshop.org

01:30:47   And get it there

01:30:49   because they will they

01:30:51   Kick back a percentage of the cash to local independent books bookshops

01:30:56   Isn't that it talk about things that it just

01:31:00   Try explaining to your

01:31:04   30 year ago self that

01:31:07   Bookshops would be in danger in the year 2020

01:31:12   And you would think what what is there an apocalypse?

01:31:16   I mean and I guess you know we've had it we do have a pandemic and it has furthered

01:31:21   Yeah, it's stress and so that actually is further stress point, but of all this sort of

01:31:27   It does it sounds like something out of you know an Orwell book. You know the idea that bookshops are

01:31:34   endangered

01:31:38   It's still I still find it incredibly hard to believe that borders is gone, and I know that that's not an independent books bookstore, but

01:31:44   That's it's like I get what you mean. You know it. How could that how how could that be you know?

01:31:51   Anyway, so I mean

01:31:54   Borders was kind of like either borders or Barnes & Noble was like every little book reading nerds

01:32:01   first bookstore

01:32:04   we had we had at the mall is where I grew up we had a

01:32:08   Walden books, and what was the other one?

01:32:12   Walden books, that's yeah

01:32:14   But I think Walden books one of them was was like the sub brand for borders and one of them was the sub brand for

01:32:22   What's the other big mega chain? Oh?

01:32:24   It was like some initial thing like wh yeah

01:32:29   Mmm. I loved I don't I always it's just my parents would have to drag me out of the bookstore at the mall

01:32:37   It's just it was just what I was it just felt like heaven. I don't know I

01:32:41   Would be willing to go on any mall trip with my parents

01:32:46   Because I would escape and go to the bookstore

01:32:50   I was just thinking about that too

01:32:52   I was thinking about how I used to we used to go to

01:32:55   Do our grocery shopping at Pathmark once a week and I would go with my mom and I would just go to the newsstand

01:33:00   And I could tell I was thinking about this in bed

01:33:02   I was I I could tell you I don't remember almost anything else about that pathmark

01:33:06   but I could tell you how to get to where the magazines were and

01:33:09   And I would did you have the little racist books and oh yeah, yeah the little you remember little racist joke

01:33:17   Yeah, but I don't think they sold those at Pathmark right oh

01:33:24   Yeah, you're right at the registers no and it'd be like yeah, there'd be like oh my god

01:33:28   That's so true that it would be like they were two they were two puns

01:33:31   You flipped it over be like Polish jokes on the one side and Italian jokes on the other side

01:33:36   Right right yeah, and they would just sell them at the checkout at the supermarket

01:33:42   Yep

01:33:44   my favorite day

01:33:45   And I should have subscribed but in some ways in some ways

01:33:50   We have come a long way as a society in some way

01:33:54   They

01:33:57   They sold Polish joke books at the cash register

01:34:00   and it

01:34:03   Market and you and that is so true that you you turn it upside down and from the back forward it'd be like Italian jokes

01:34:10   That's unbelievable. Yep. I

01:34:14   Loved going to the supermarket for that reason and I would buy mad magazine so I wouldn't read mad magazine

01:34:21   There and my mom would would you know let me buy it. I would read all the other magazines that you wouldn't let me buy

01:34:28   Right

01:34:31   That's good strategy. It's like maximize my

01:34:33   My reading material and the supermarket unlike like a neighborhood shop right like we had like a neighborhood

01:34:41   Like coffee shop type place that sold comic books and the guy would come out Jake

01:34:47   He was the guy who owned the place if you sat there, and you know he'd give you know this isn't the same library kids

01:34:53   You know we'd you know so we'd go in there and start reading the comic books

01:34:57   We didn't want to buy until the man who owned the store would say get out of here

01:35:00   Or you know buy it the pathmark didn't care. They didn't care if I sat there and read

01:35:05   Newsweek cover to cover

01:35:07   They did they did not it felt. I felt like I was getting getting away with something

01:35:12   They that's because your mom was walking around filling a grocery basket a giant cart

01:35:20   Which probably totaled $60?

01:35:24   Well the other thing yeah, totally you fill a cart for like six forty seven bucks

01:35:32   Yep, and then they complain think that's that's too much well it always astounded me that there were other kids in the

01:35:40   Supermarket who weren't doing the same thing like what why aren't you here reading with me?

01:35:45   What do you what in the world are you doing? Why would you want to walk up and down the aisles of a supermarket?

01:35:49   We've really come a long way

01:35:54   Anyway the book looks great. I am looking forward to getting my copy from you because I don't want to buy it

01:36:02   But if I were going to buy it I would go to bookshop.org buy it from an independent seller

01:36:07   But you could find this book anywhere that books are sold

01:36:10   Anything else you want to we're not we're not using the name of that other place, but yeah

01:36:17   It's there too if you and if I know you've got some some some a lot of Apple

01:36:24   aficionados, let's say I'll listen to this it's available as an e-book at the Apple well I

01:36:31   Get it any literally anywhere books are sold anything else you want to promote people can find you on Twitter at Montero

01:36:39   on M O N T E I R O

01:36:41   Unless I've been suspended

01:36:45   which

01:36:47   happens every couple weeks now

01:36:51   You used to be Mike for the win Mike FTW how did you pronounce your old Twitter handle?

01:36:55   Did you say Mike for the winner Mike FTW? I?

01:36:58   Think I would say FTW

01:37:02   Underscore FTW that's a long time ago. I never I didn't know I'm not good with acronyms

01:37:06   I didn't know what FTW stood for for a long time

01:37:09   But you and I were friends and I knew it was your handle and I really didn't I thought it was like

01:37:13   Fuck the world or something. I wasn't even sure I

01:37:16   Hear that one a lot too from people

01:37:20   And you know when they thought it meant that I'm you know, fine run with it

01:37:25   run with

01:37:28   But anyway, just just keep saving call it

01:37:31   Because you know that pays my rent

01:37:34   this has been

01:37:37   For me a stress relief. I enjoyed talking about this with you

01:37:41   And I'm really glad to have had you on the show and it it's one of those episodes of my show

01:37:46   Where in hindsight who else would I have had on this week to talk about these Michigan's other than you?

01:37:54   Really?

01:37:55   You know the I always love coming on this show John and I want to apologize because

01:38:02   Your regular listener has probably stopped listening about an hour and 30 minutes. Yeah. Well, we'll send them over from your Twitter account though

01:38:09   There you go. Well, but that's the other thing too. And let me just say this

01:38:14   We you know regularly scheduled programming will come back

01:38:17   but I four years ago Merlin came on the show after the election and we had a

01:38:22   We called it a holiday party. I was drunk

01:38:25   This November Merlin came back on and I was not drunk because Biden had won

01:38:34   There are times when to me and I get it so so you drink when you're sad but not happy I

01:38:46   I drank too much after Trump won four years ago to be honest. I mean it

01:38:50   It was a temporary coping message

01:38:54   mechanism that I should have no I guess I should have should have had the wherewithal as as a grown man to

01:39:01   Stare it in the face, but I I couldn't honestly and again a lot it was I I

01:39:07   Again, I don't want to Lord this over. I'm not looking for

01:39:12   My son Jonas is famous being right points, you know our family currency here in the Gruber household

01:39:17   No, I know that I love a being right point I don't really want it it's I'm not looking for yes you were right but I I

01:39:26   Saw, you know, I didn't know how it would happen, but it's like every president

01:39:31   Which president has ever not faced a major crisis?

01:39:35   It that's the way the world works. That's the job and when this man was faced with a crisis

01:39:41   He was going to do the exact wrong thing. And here we are, you know with the goddamn pandemic

01:39:47   Among other also, let's not let's not jinx it because I don't know when this is being released

01:39:54   But I'm worst. I'm still looking at six days. Well, I've had that count

01:40:00   I have a kind of put a countdown on my website before the election and then some I forget who it was

01:40:05   but after the election

01:40:07   Just a little number up in the corner and somebody said you should bring it back and make it for Inauguration Day

01:40:12   And I've had it up for I don't know 90 days or something. I

01:40:16   I've

01:40:18   Long I greatly enjoy seeing it now in the single digits, but I really really cannot wait for that number to be zero

01:40:26   How much do you think we're gonna sleep like I

01:40:34   My wife has said she cannot believe how much better she's sleeping now that his

01:40:38   Twitter is unplugged and and she gets up before I do. I'm the night owl. She wakes up

01:40:44   earlier and our

01:40:47   It the oddest ritual that I didn't anticipate how it would make me feel is that I no longer wake up and say

01:40:54   to her

01:40:56   Any anything, you know meaning what what is Trump been tweeting about today?

01:41:02   That's how for years that's how we've spent most of the last four years is my I you know, good morning

01:41:07   Anything, you know, no, he's golfing, you know or nope. Oh wait till you see it

01:41:15   He's gone off on whatever it is. It is an incredible relief it is

01:41:21   That was the really terrifying part is that it could have been literally anything

01:41:28   It is it's it's it's it's like when you have like a browser tab that's consuming a huge chunkier CPU

01:41:34   And it makes everything on your computer. Your scrolling is a little janky

01:41:38   Having that tab closed in my mind is unbelievable. I feel like I've gained 20 IQ points

01:41:45   It's I feel like I just shut down an Adobe product, you know, it's the same way

01:41:50   You know you hear I I'm trying to wrap this up

01:41:53   But it's it's like when you go through when you when you personally or a loved one goes through a health crisis of any kind

01:41:59   You can't get anything else done. It's too consuming

01:42:01   You just can't you know, it's you'd like to think you you can you know, then that you can

01:42:07   Compartmentalize stuff but when something like that is weighing in your in your head, you know that this this idiot might start a war

01:42:16   With a tweet, it's crazy

01:42:20   Yeah, anyway, I am so glad to get this

01:42:23   Talking to you last show this is this will almost certainly be the last episode of the talk show in the Trump administration

01:42:31   But that feels good

01:42:34   the Dorsey administration

01:42:36   You know, what did we not talk about

01:42:39   What the hell happened like like if you had been a like to be a fly on the wall

01:42:48   Inside Twitter, I mean there's no inside Twitter. It was probably all over zoom or something

01:42:54   But the actual conversation

01:42:57   Where and I'm guessing I'm guessing there are probably like a pack of pretty high up employees

01:43:06   Who went in at once?

01:43:09   And we're like enough. I would love to see it documented. I it's been Ben Thompson. I've talked about this that it

01:43:16   For all my criticism, I think Facebook is far greater threat to society than Twitter

01:43:21   I think Facebook is a real problem

01:43:23   but I will give Zuckerberg credit for

01:43:26   Having a coherent strategy for dealing with this and when they finally pulled the trigger

01:43:31   they just pulled the trigger the way that Twitter gave him a 12-hour timeout and

01:43:35   temporarily, it was banned and then the next

01:43:38   It just was so incoherent

01:43:41   That's that to me had to be the precipitating moment where the executives went to Jack and said Jackie

01:43:47   How could how in the world can we end a 12-hour timeout? He just this this can't be

01:43:52   You know

01:43:54   Well, I wouldn't be sure they were all executives either. Yeah, I don't know

01:43:57   I would like to you know what they did there was there

01:43:59   I don't I don't want to know I don't want to know because honestly if we were to find out now

01:44:04   I think some of those people might be in danger. Yeah, it's true. Well, they there was a letter, you know that rank-and-file

01:44:10   employees said I did hear about the letter and I believe the letter was before the 12-hour

01:44:17   Timeout I could be wrong there. I forget to

01:44:21   Yeah, but I mean remember they let him back on after the 12-hour timeout

01:44:27   And at that point every other platform was already booting him permanently

01:44:33   It's just it's very strange response. You know, I mean it's like

01:44:39   Not if you not if you not if you know anything about addiction. Hmm

01:44:44   Yeah, that's it's that's the best analogy I can think of it's true

01:44:49   Jack Jack Dorsey is addicted to Donald Trump as

01:44:53   Much as Donald Trump is addicted to tweeting and it was it was like a bargaining maneuver, right?

01:44:59   Okay, 12 hours of shutout not just can't post but we're gonna disable the account for 12 hours, you know

01:45:06   It's oh I can do it. I can I can go 12 hours. I can go 12 hours. Yeah

01:45:11   We've all heard this. Yeah, it's true. I

01:45:14   Can go 12 hours. It's not a problem. Anyway two better times ahead. Thanks, Mike

01:45:20   better times ahead