0:00:00Do you know one of the most delicious little details of this is that
0:00:04Wikipedia now has to do a redirect because they previously had an article Trump impeachment
0:00:10Yeah
0:00:13Which impeachment did you mean I
0:00:18Did you see that? Did you see the the the dojo tweet? I don't think so. I just tweeted this out
0:00:26Friend of mine found it. It's a Don Trump
0:00:29junior tweet from
0:00:322016 dear Clinton's, you know, it's deplorable being impeached
0:00:38Hashtag basket of horrible page. Oh man, but yeah amidst all of this news. Did you see the story today?
0:00:47I want to start with some light fare. Do you see the story the story today about Jared and Ivanka's?
0:00:53Secret Service detail not being allowed to use the restrooms in their home
0:00:56No, yeah, so there's a story in the Washington Post. I will put this in the show notes
0:01:02I promise but the basic gist is they have a very large home in a very nice neighborhood in Washington and they've
0:01:08Forbid they've they forbade the Secret Service from using their restrooms and the Secret Service therefore
0:01:15Rented a basement studio apartment somewhere on their block just to have access to the toilet and it cost
0:01:22$100,000 a month so over $100,000
0:01:25Since 2017, you know what I hate about that
0:01:28What I hate about that is that it almost humanizes them I mean you've had work done in your home no we have
0:01:36You want do you want people taking dumps in your bathroom? You know, we're lucky
0:01:41We you know the the new place where we have a bunch of restrooms, you know, we've got powder rooms on every floor
0:01:47I mean, that's the way you make a house like when I grew up we had one toilet, you know
0:01:50Or actually we had one in the basement. Yeah, the basement one was
0:01:53You know not good
0:01:57Not comfortable. I found I found a
0:02:00Rifle in the drop ceiling of our basement toilet when I was a teenager
0:02:05Did you know who's it was?
0:02:08Your brothers probably yeah, I was my brothers
0:02:11Because you know like a normal teenager I was that's where I stashed right porn. That's a good hiding spot
0:02:18I've worn it is it's the best hiding spot. So and it turns out that that that's where he was stashing his gun
0:02:25Anyway, so it but lower in this story
0:02:30And again, I like to filter these things through a okay
0:02:35What if it was somebody I liked, you know, what if it wasn't the Kushner's if it was, you know
0:02:40Hey Obama's or somebody is it unreasonable not to want the Secret Service to use your restroom now now part of the problem
0:02:46I think the optics problem for them is that it's a very large house apparently with a lot of restrooms so they wouldn't it
0:02:53quite possibly they could have made arrangements that they could have used a
0:02:57Restroom and not really disturb the field
0:03:00The Obama's would have totally let them you well listen to this here. I'm quoting from this story
0:03:06they had a porta-potty for a while and
0:03:08The neighbors out in the sidewalk and the neighbors raised a stink because I guess the porta-potty raises a stink
0:03:16And then it did so the porta-potty this is from the story was the agency's initial solution to the protective details dilemma
0:03:23But it was removed in the face of the neighborhood's protests after that according to the law enforcement
0:03:28Officials the agents began using a bathroom in a garage at the Obama's house
0:03:34Which the former no former president's protective detail had turned into a command post
0:03:40The Obama's did not use the garage, you know, I guess they don't drive
0:03:44So the extra traffic to and from the command post caused no problem
0:03:48Yet this solution too was short-lived
0:03:51after a Secret Service supervisor from the Trump Kushner detail
0:03:56Left an unpleasant mess in the Obama bathroom at some point before the fall of 2017
0:04:03according to a person briefed on the event
0:04:06That that prompted the leaders of the Obama detail to ban the agents up the street from ever returning
0:04:15You can't that's embarrassing. Can you even imagine?
0:04:18How do you I mean you briefed on the event the event
0:04:24That's that's a call with with a boss that you never want to have
0:04:29so Ted
0:04:32You know, we've had some complaints about you wrecking a bathroom and let's see who's let me check my notes here the Obama's bathroom
0:04:40I need more details about this event. I need an entire story about this
0:04:47This needs well, I'm thinking if I'm Secret Service
0:04:51And I'm using Kushner's bathroom. I'm
0:04:55wrecking it
0:04:57I'm wrecking it on purpose. Yeah, you would be going to Taco Bell beforehand
0:05:06Well, I'm like I'm like shoving yams in the in the toilet like fuck these people fuck these people fuck their plumbing
0:05:13Fuck everything about them. I'm gonna wreck this back. We've all had moments, you know with an unpleasant
0:05:20We've all had unfortunate incidents with toilets and and of course, you know, yeah, you know and you're in a guest
0:05:28You may not know you might just you might you might have a moment where you think well
0:05:32There's got to be a plunger everybody keeps a plunger
0:05:35You gotta have a plunger, you know, I'm amazed I'm amazed
0:05:39How often there isn't a plunger and you know, look I like to I like to leave a clean bowl. Yeah
0:05:46Whatever I do. I like to leave a clean bowl because one I don't want people thinking that you know
0:05:51I wasn't house-trained and and two it's just common courtesy for the for you know, the next writer. It's
0:05:57And and that that means that means sometimes the plunger always a brush
0:06:04You got to how can you you got to it? You don't want to leave any evidence of what you doing there
0:06:09You know, nobody nobody should have to come in to a bathroom and see what somebody else did
0:06:16Briefed on the event
0:06:22Want I would like the great Olivia and nosy to research this as this incident and the Obama's garage
0:06:29Restroom as her next
0:06:32Investigation, you know did you saw I'm sure her her
0:06:35Her piece on the four seasons total landscaping, correct? I
0:06:40Love that. She should win an award for digging into sometimes
0:06:45To me there's two stories to write. There's the big the big story right the trunk of the tree and
0:06:52then the leaves the individual leaves and
0:06:56There's so many stories
0:06:59There's so many stories that could be written here now this the four seasons total landscaping I
0:07:04Presume everybody listening is vaguely familiar with this. This was in the immediate aftermath of the election and
0:07:12Donald Trump's lawyer Rudy Giuliani called a press conference
0:07:17that Trump tweeted out as being at the four seasons Philadelphia and
0:07:23And then had technically true technically then sent out a correction for seasons total landscaping exclamation mark
0:07:31All but between that between the tweet and the correction there was a tweet from from the four seasons
0:07:38Yeah, that was basically fuck. No
0:07:40well
0:07:42You curse yeah, you can't
0:07:45Okay
0:07:47But you're you're from Philadelphia
0:07:49And so it it I am it and specifically you grew up in the Northeast which is actually where forces use
0:07:55No, don't say that don't say that that's a hate crime. I
0:07:58Grew up in all well, well, you're familiar with the North. Oh, I I'm very familiar with the Northeast and I'm very familiar
0:08:07With the neighborhood that four seasons total landscaping is in because there's a jail there
0:08:16That wasn't mentioned in the in the remarks they everybody just mentioned the porn shop and the crematorium across the street
0:08:23Well, there's a jail in that neighborhood and that's where we used to go to visit my brother the brother who?
0:08:29stashed a rifle
0:08:32Exactly along with your girly magazines
0:08:35It's it, you know your standard fuck around and find out Philadelphia story
0:08:40so my favorite little side note of the four seasons total landscaping thing is and you know
0:08:46Center City Philadelphia is very small for a major metropolitan city. It's it's
0:08:50It literally walkable because where Center City Philadelphia is with the handshake deal that that William Penn had with the
0:08:58This I guess they were the school
0:09:00Native Americans, but you know
0:09:02It was what whatever he could walk in an afternoon would be the the city and he walked from river to river
0:09:08But it's it's tiny it
0:09:11It broke that deal later
0:09:12Well, we would not have to go into that but but it's it is by definition will walkable Center City
0:09:19It is very well. We were close to all of this
0:09:23Craziness during the vote counting. I mean, you know, we don't live quite in the neighborhood
0:09:29But the Convention Center is you know, I don't know. It's like a mile away or something. It's very close
0:09:34It's right around the corner from hop sing actually
0:09:37Yeah, I know that area really well. That's where the gallery right right, which is
0:09:42undergoing a major
0:09:44reconstruction, you know sort of modernizing
0:09:47When this was going on it seemed crazy that it would be at the Four Seasons
0:09:53the Four Seasons used to be on the parkway, but then they've they were now on the the penthouse floors of the new Comcast Tower
0:10:01So like the top two or three floors of the tallest new tallest building in Center City is the Four Seasons
0:10:09It just seemed crazy why in the world, you know for the few minutes where it seemed like they would be doing this
0:10:15It seemed like how is this even possible and at the time there were restrictions in this city
0:10:19You you couldn't hold a press conference indoors and then when the total landscaping thing came out
0:10:24This is my favorite thing my wife who I believe, you know, you're familiar with with my wife
0:10:28Still it's still Amy Jane my first my first life that surprises me
0:10:33Nobody's more surprised than me quite honestly. Oh, I believe really that's it's really
0:10:39I feel like I'm over, you know
0:10:40But anyway, my favorite thing was when Trump tweeted Four Seasons total landscaping
0:10:46Amy was on on Twitter at the time and she said what does that even mean and
0:10:50she thought it meant it was some kind of jargon like
0:10:55carpet bagging or
0:10:58gerrymandering, you know that like a landscaping is some kind of
0:11:03Old-timey hundred-year-old term for for a way to get cheated out of an election and wouldn't it be Trump?
0:11:09Like wouldn't it if that was a you know, like a if it was a landscaping Trump would call it a total landscaping, right?
0:11:16It's the best the best way. It was a total landscaping, but it turns out it was actually
0:11:22Not it was actually a landscaping company in the in the Northeast
0:11:26so, um
0:11:30Shit, I can't remember if that was last week or this week. Remember when he he went to
0:11:34He went to Alamo, Texas. It was like what two days ago
0:11:38Was that two days ago Jesus? He totally meant to be going to the Alamo in San Antonio, right?
0:11:45I had to write that was the same ring and it in fact his
0:11:50His dummies on the internet. They all thought that this is it because they're you know people screenshotted this
0:11:57you know like the the people who got kicked off reddit and they what do they have the dot the Donald dot win or whatever they
0:12:03Reformed right? They were all celebrating it. They're like this, you know, the these kooks who think that you know that that he's somehow
0:12:10Is gonna unveil evidence like ah
0:12:13Genius his last stand will be at the Alamo do it. Yeah, I'll know yeah
0:12:18Take David Crockett. He's lucky. He didn't have it like the Alamo rent a car at
0:12:22Reagan National International Airport
0:12:26Jesus Christ, that would have been amazing. I
0:12:28I really hope somebody floated the rent the Alamo rent a car stand as an idea
0:12:37What a shit shit on
0:12:42Really? It's just unbelievable
0:12:44What a total absolute shit. I want to talk to you. Well, let me let me take a break first
0:12:51I'll do she gave me on your pocket. Yeah
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0:14:43You sound exactly I'm very happy about hello fresh I like him
0:14:49All right. I wanted to have you on the show
0:14:51because I I've been wondering about this with Twitter and kicking Trump off the platform and I I heard a
0:14:59Have been on the side of they should kick him off for a while now
0:15:05I thought it should have happened a while ago and
0:15:07You know, I might agree. Well, here's the thing
0:15:11I was thinking about who I should have on the show to talk to you about and I want someone who's just going to agree
0:15:16With me and I'm thinking I should try to find somebody who thinks that he shouldn't be kicked off and you can't I can't find anybody
0:15:23At this point and then it I realized the better debate would be to have it
0:15:27You on because you felt more strongly about it than I did and thought, you know
0:15:35so
0:15:36Don't tell me when you think they should have kicked him off the show
0:15:39I mean, it's fair to say that you have been a leading critic of Twitter's
0:15:44Continuing support for this president being on their platform. I
0:15:48Mean, I've been I've been one of the louder ones. I don't know if it's amounted to hill of beans
0:15:55But I'm certainly not afraid to yell
0:15:58And I've been so I've been bugging Twitter about this
0:16:07Since I I guess since he entered the the race in 2016
0:16:15Because I mean I was you know
0:16:18Everybody remembers the scene of him coming down, you know, the the golden escalator at Trump Tower and immediately declaring that
0:16:27You know Mexicans were rapists and that he was running for president
0:16:30at the same time he was amassing a ton of Twitter followers and
0:16:36Did you remember his first tweet no, I don't
0:16:43It was something about hey, I'm gonna be on some late-night talk show
0:16:48I forget which one but hey, I'm gonna be on some late-night talk show
0:16:53Coming, you know come and watch that was his first tweet
0:16:57And for a while, I mean that was that was the kind of tweet that he would send he
0:17:03remember he had that that whole thing with Robert Pattinson and
0:17:07About you know, you shouldn't be dating Chris right? Right?
0:17:11It was that kind of like so celebrity bull right
0:17:13And then he kind of stumbled into hey, what if I make a couple of really racist we're nice
0:17:20And his follower count started going up
0:17:23And then it exploded so
0:17:26like any good
0:17:29Sociopath he started doing the thing that got him the attention
0:17:34So stuff got more more virulent more virulent more more more racist more sexist
0:17:40He started getting more followers and at the same time
0:17:43Remember at the same time I mean this was back when Twitter was talking about like holy shit
0:17:48We should probably just sell the Facebook or you know
0:17:51We're running out of cash here. We know what we're gonna do and all of a sudden they discover this this secret potion
0:17:58of this this seven 70 year old
0:18:01xenophobe
0:18:04And and they decide we're gonna ride this guy to the bank
0:18:09then he decides to run for president and
0:18:11We were like equal parts mocking him like oh my god
0:18:16What an idiot this is gonna be hilarious
0:18:19Like I remember at this point John Stewart was still doing the Daily Show
0:18:24And I remember John doing a segment with where he was like, thank you. Thank you on behalf of comedians everywhere
0:18:31Thank you for running again
0:18:33Because this is exactly what we need
0:18:35You know to make the jokes
0:18:38so so it was like 50% that and 50% of
0:18:42People who are like no, wait a minute
0:18:45This is actually terrifying
0:18:48Because this is
0:18:51This idiot actually knows how to reach
0:18:55Like the worst of the worst and speak in their language and fire them up and he has absolutely
0:19:02No problem saying what they believe to hear
0:19:07And
0:19:08So he was on Twitter and he was building this massive following and he was saying all of this terribly racist sexist stuff
0:19:15and he was attacking people personally and
0:19:18It was getting dangerous
0:19:22Twitter
0:19:23Rather than you know following the rules its own guidelines that it all that were already in print
0:19:30Rather than doing that they kept moving the goalposts to excuse
0:19:35What he was saying?
0:19:37Because that was getting them that all-important engagement that they wanted
0:19:41Right. It was just it was it it it drove cement helped cement their place in the the
0:19:49He was making them money. It was making them money in our collective minds, you know Trump tweets, you know
0:19:55It really did it drive Twitter as a source of news, you know, like the fact what he tweeted was the news
0:20:04I mean history is gonna remember, you know when history talks about Trump the word tweet will be in the first sentence
0:20:12I've seen people
0:20:14Talking about you know, like well, do you think he ever could have been president without Twitter? I I don't even think it's close
0:20:20I don't even think it's a close call because I don't think he ever would have got propelled into politics without Twitter
0:20:27Right, like it's like what you were just saying. Oh, he used to be talking about, you know
0:20:32The the type of stuff that he you know, a game show host would tweet about because that's what he was. Yeah
0:20:38Yeah, and and I'm sure that all of the racist xenophobic shit that he studies that he spews out on Twitter
0:20:45It was you know shit that he said at home. I'm not saying Twitter made him that way
0:20:50I'm saying that Twitter gave him one hell of a bullhorn
0:20:54He really got propelled into politics on the issue of whether Barack Obama was born in
0:21:01Kenya and was therefore on
0:21:03Unfit to be the president under the Constitution
0:21:07That was his first big flip from you know standard
0:21:13Used car salesman bullshit into politics was the birther is an angle
0:21:19And he got a tremendous amount of attention for that and it's really hard to imagine how he did it how he would have done
0:21:26It without Twitter
0:21:27I mean, I guess he could have any did call in to Fox News shows and be on the telephone talking to
0:21:32Whoever was the you know, Bill O'Reilly or whoever was the host, you know before he got kicked off the network
0:21:38But it it really was yeah
0:21:42Why was why was Donald Trump considered an authority on the issue of the quote-unquote controversy over?
0:21:49birtherism it's because of his tweets right like
0:21:53Donald Trump would not have been president without Twitter and
0:21:57Twitter had everything they needed to stop Donald Trump from becoming president back in 2016
0:22:06by just enforcing their own rules I
0:22:09Think about you know, and it is he what he did tweet was against the rules
0:22:16I don't see you know, and I do think that's important but I and carving out this exception that
0:22:23Okay, you
0:22:25everybody else has to follow these rules, but we will make an exception for
0:22:28state leaders is
0:22:31Almost the worst thing you could do if there's anybody if there's one group that should have to follow the rules
0:22:37It should be state leaders, you know, and if there's one group that certainly doesn't need to be amplified
0:22:43It's state leaders
0:22:45I mean
0:22:46You know when you when you when you listen to some of the arguments that people have made about why we he needs to be
0:22:51There it's like so well because we need to know what he thinks
0:22:55We've known what every president has thought right without it better
0:23:00They they they literally have the world's they literally have a press room in their house
0:23:07It's true, right in their house never you don't look back at the previous
0:23:1344 presidents and say that they were silenced because they didn't have Twitter or
0:23:18You know didn't use it or you know, no, but nope. It's it's not true
0:23:22to me
0:23:24and it's very clear now that he's gone and I mean my argument and
0:23:29on maybe it was okay, you know, I'll try to take Twitter side on this and say that they I
0:23:37Think they're what was the saying from the Revolutionary War where there was a battle and the guy said, you know
0:23:42Don't fire - you can see the whites of their eyes. All right, everybody grows up here in that legend
0:23:47and I think there's that's sort of the mindset Twitter had of
0:23:52You know
0:23:55He did things that could be justified for kicking him off
0:23:59Before yeah, but wait wait until it's even worse. Wait until it's even worse. Wait until it's even worse
0:24:05and then all of a sudden he's telling these
0:24:07Armed insurrectionists to go storm the Capitol and they do it and people get killed, you know
0:24:13A cop got his brains bashed in with with a fire extinguisher. I mean and it was
0:24:18Perilously close to them bursting in and and getting access to members of Congress
0:24:24and and so
0:24:26Clearly this is over the line and and to me there might be if to play devil's advocate to you. There's some
0:24:32Some sense in my mind a feeling that okay now it's it this you you cannot take the other side
0:24:41You know, if you do you're supporting an armed insurrection
0:24:44So, yeah when and I mean they're still doing it we still had like what almost 200
0:24:51Congress people yesterday vote to not invite him for trying to get them killed
0:24:57Yeah
0:24:59you know
0:25:01the the the way to till they see the whites of their eyes things reminds me of
0:25:06So my whole family voted for him
0:25:10And when I was trying to talk sense into him
0:25:14back in 2016 I
0:25:16was like
0:25:18Because it's because we're immigrants. We're an immigrant family
0:25:20And I was like how the hell can you vote for this clown?
0:25:25He's I mean, he's he's he's a xenophobia hates not us. Not us was the first thing that they told me
0:25:31He didn't mean us
0:25:33he means those other in the black and brown ones and
0:25:38You know not, you know European immigrants
0:25:40And I mean when we talk about like
0:25:45Twitter what you know waiting to see how much worse it could get and waiting to collect the body of evidence
0:25:53Decisions like this are generally made by people who are on that last line of protection
0:26:01otherwise known as privilege of
0:26:04being hurt
0:26:07So let's let him make fun of these people let's let him make fun of these people
0:26:10Let's let him make fun of these people. Okay. Now he's getting a little too close to us
0:26:15There okay, we've seen him take down we've seen him take down like eight groups now he's getting a little close
0:26:22All right. Now it's dangerous
0:26:24And that's one of the things that pisses me off about that that sort of thinking
0:26:28It's like we'll let him go ahead and use other people
0:26:32At well, let's test let's test on them and then if he gets close to us
0:26:37Then we'll do something
0:26:41It and there's there another analogy that I've been thinking about is if you if you spot a kid playing with matches you
0:26:49You take the matches away right away. You don't wait until they actually start a fire right like right and it I
0:26:58Don't I know that there's news coming out even as we speak a week later
0:27:03There's still news coming out about what exactly went on and and which groups were actually not just a bunch of yahoos
0:27:09Walking around the halls, but actually had a plot last week
0:27:14It's it's worse than it looked and I really feel that when it by the time we're done
0:27:19Reporting reading the reports on this we're gonna see how perilously close we were to a truly profound
0:27:26Disaster like I still don't know that it makes you know, there was a path to make him president
0:27:31But I there was definitely a path where members of Congress get killed on that day. Yeah
0:27:37No, they were I mean, I think we're eventually gonna see like those those line drawing diagrams
0:27:43Like bird's-eye view of like here's a congressperson and here's like the six inches of drywall separating them
0:27:50from this jackass
0:27:53this
0:27:55carrying like five weapons
0:27:57There's there's an argument that Jack Dorsey has too much Jack Dorsey and Mark Zuckerberg
0:28:03have too much power because they do run their companies and
0:28:07Ultimately, it was it's their call right at Zuckerberg who signed his name to the post that said he's permanently banned from Facebook
0:28:14And you know, obviously Jack was the one that you've been petitioning. I mean and you you've you've talked to Jack, right?
0:28:22I mean I did I talked to him
0:28:26Face to face in January of 2017
0:28:28We met in person
0:28:32After I'd been
0:28:34Giving him. Well, I mean her I was harassing right? I was harassing him on Twitter about this and
0:28:40he agreed to me and
0:28:43we met and we talked about this and I walked out of there terrified why
0:28:50Because I saw
0:28:54fear I
0:28:56saw somebody who was so
0:28:58Incredibly terrified of this situation that he had somehow gotten himself in
0:29:05it's it's it's like he
0:29:08He accidentally got himself in
0:29:12This incredibly powerful position, I mean
0:29:18Hold on a second. Hold on
0:29:23Chelsea's leaving for work and I want to hug her. Goodbye you edit right? Yeah. Yeah, we do. Yeah
0:29:28I'll see you after work
0:29:37Sorry about that, let me see if I can start this off, okay
0:29:44So he had gotten himself into like almost
0:29:50Accidentally like he he wanted to do like a messaging app for first for for bike messengers. Remember that yeah, totally
0:29:57Yeah, and and here he is now
0:30:00Accidentally, he forced gumped himself
0:30:03Into this this position of incredible power. He had absolutely no idea how to handle it or what to do with it
0:30:11he doesn't have the strongest moral code in the world and
0:30:19Everybody was telling him how awesome he was and
0:30:21He had apparently
0:30:24Done away with anybody who was a good enough
0:30:28friend or or
0:30:31Whatever to smack him upside the head when he needed a good smacking which everyone needs
0:30:37and
0:30:39He somehow found himself in charge of the
0:30:44The platform that the the most powerful person in the world was using thing to communicate
0:30:50And he didn't know how to control him and he was terrified the time to do it
0:30:57Was at the beginning like when he was a game show host posting
0:31:02Racist conspiracy theories about Obama's birthplace. That was the time to do it stopped it right there
0:31:09You just say this imagine where we would be right now
0:31:13Seriously
0:31:15Imagine what me and you would be doing right now
0:31:17If Jack Dorsey had done his job back in 2016
0:31:23if he had if he had in
0:31:25If he had enforced his own
0:31:28Guidelines his own agreed-to guidelines on this guy in 2016
0:31:35Imagine where where me and you would be right now. Imagine what you'd be doing. Imagine what your kid would be doing
0:31:43And I mean this goes for every listener out there. Imagine what your life has been
0:31:48the last four years the fear and the anxiety and the terror and
0:31:54finally like this an unchecked pandemic
0:31:58So much worse response to the pandemic of any other country in the world that it is ridiculous. It's it's absurd
0:32:06I mean my dad's sister died of kovat my aunt died of kovat
0:32:11I mean, that's why I'm not looking for I
0:32:14Terrible, but I mean it's it to say that it is real to me is it's
0:32:18profound, you know it it
0:32:22We're arguing we're arguing whether it's real which is ridiculous
0:32:27That's that to me is the that's the unacceptable aspect of it, right the
0:32:32The using it, you know to put it in a political terms the big lie, right?
0:32:37So it's a big lie that this election was rigged in any way
0:32:41this was actually, you know arguably one of the the most secure elections in the history of
0:32:47Human democracy, you know the opposite it couldn't be more untrue. It's a big lie
0:32:54And and that to me is the effectiveness like because on the one hand I could
0:33:01We're talking about the fact that the president of the United States this president the next president
0:33:07Previous presidents don't need Twitter to get their message out, right?
0:33:11but so so to me this whole argument about free speech and that he's being quote unquote silenced is
0:33:18It's sophistry. They're they're arguing about free speech and
0:33:24silencing people because they know that people there's widespread support for free speech and and
0:33:31tolerating
0:33:33The viewpoints that we disagree with right? I mean at some point at some point when we're done like
0:33:41Counting the bodies and doing that important work and getting this pandemic under control
0:33:46We're gonna start like we're gonna start doing like like our top
0:33:51500 things ruined by this administration list
0:33:56There were a lot of them
0:33:58What it's done to the issue of free speech?
0:34:02Is in the top ten for me
0:34:04I'm a free speech advocate
0:34:06Right and and me too. I really am and and so I would think right were
0:34:11and
0:34:13The cynical way that it's being talked about now by both
0:34:18You know the jackasses on the right and the jackasses in tech companies and the other way what what they have
0:34:26Turned free speech into the mutation the horrid mutation
0:34:32That's their definition of free speech is so
0:34:35counter
0:34:37To what it was actually intended to be and what it actually still is legally
0:34:42that it's it's it's
0:34:46Really fucked with with the whole idea of what free speech is about
0:34:51I mean, so so basically free speech means the government can't tell you can't put you you can't put this podcast up
0:34:58John we don't like what you say. It's the government's doing it. I mean, it's such an important distinction
0:35:03I mean this I mean the first line of the First Amendment is Congress shall Congress shall pass
0:35:10none
0:35:12Something like that, right, but it applies to Congress
0:35:16But this is your podcast and you can have on whoever you want you can talk about whatever you want and
0:35:26You know people can decide whether to listen to it or not listen to it
0:35:30If you go off on some some weird right-wing tangent somebody can decide well, you know what? I don't want to listen to that
0:35:38I don't want to be on that. I don't want to host that. I don't want to be associated with that
0:35:42None of those things none of those things are about free speech
0:35:46right and so in fact that I would argue that that that me telling you I
0:35:54Won't host your hateful podcast anymore is more covered by free speech
0:35:58Right than you being able to write because there's there's agency involved in being you know sovereignty
0:36:06You know that that you get to say what you want to say
0:36:09But the restaurant owner also gets to say if you're gonna say that in my restaurant you're out, you know
0:36:15right, that's that's that's you know, you're you're you're
0:36:19Ability to use use racial slurs to address the waitstaff at a restaurant
0:36:25It is you're right you're not going to be arrested for it, you know
0:36:32But the restaurant has a right and if they want to be the sort of restaurant people want to go to
0:36:36They're going to tell you you're not welcome there anymore
0:36:40Yeah, I mean that's what I would say that they have an obligation to do that. There was a friend sent me a
0:36:48Story it seems like one of those things that's gone around but I had never seen it before but it was just a story about
0:36:53a guide sitting in a bar
0:36:55and a guy sits next to him and
0:36:58You know stranger comes up to the bar and he has like Nazi patches on his jacket and the bartender just immediately says out
0:37:06Get out get the hell out and the guy said what what you know, and he said just get out you're out
0:37:13A guy hadn't even opened his mouth hadn't said anything was by himself the guy who's still at the bar says what was that about?
0:37:19You know, I mean he's like you saw his patches and he says yeah, but he didn't you know, he didn't say anything
0:37:24and
0:37:26he said you let a Nazi in and
0:37:30Next thing, you know, you're running a Nazi bar because what happens is the next time he comes back. He's a nice guy
0:37:37He doesn't make any trouble. He comes back with a friend and they don't make any trouble
0:37:42Then they come back with two friends and maybe the third or fourth guy does start making a little trouble and does start saying things
0:37:48And next thing, you know, the whole place is covered with Nazis. You got to get them out. Yeah, and
0:37:53That to me is is the power of Twitter
0:38:00Removing him from the platform and it's not about silencing him. It's about saying and reflecting
0:38:08Not just Jack Dorsey's opinion that he isn't suited to be on the platform, but society's
0:38:15Perspective that you cannot you you you cannot from a position of power
0:38:19Convince people of serious lies. That's it's not acceptable
0:38:24You know by not booting him
0:38:28What Jack was telling everybody who?
0:38:32Trump was harassing that he didn't give a shit about them, right?
0:38:36No, very true. And and that is it it's implicitly saying that it's that everything he was doing is acceptable
0:38:42Not that he agreed. Nobody is gonna say that Jack Dorsey agrees with those viewpoints, but that they are acceptable
0:38:50discourse
0:38:52You know you yeah, I I mean if I if I own a bar I
0:38:57Gotta make sure that everybody there is having a nice time
0:39:03That's my job I invited the man I opened the door I said hey come on in I'll sell you drinks and in exchange you hang
0:39:08Out and you give me money for those drinks
0:39:10And I'll you know create this nice environment for you to come and drink in and you know
0:39:16I got a lookout for those folks
0:39:18So when the Nazi walks in I mean you kick them out
0:39:23because you don't want them to come back with his friends obviously, but you also kick them out because
0:39:30There are other people in bar right and they're having a good time and they they certainly have a right not to feel threatened
0:39:36You know or offended, you know
0:39:38And you know if the Nazi should turn to like a black patron at the bar and start, you know
0:39:46Spouting out racial shit. What would I mean right now?
0:39:50Let's like let's say Jack is your bartender Jack has been you know
0:39:54Telling those patrons. Well, he has a right to say that
0:39:57There's
0:39:59You know, nobody goes back to that bar you don't go back to that bar no, right
0:40:04It's then that's how it becomes a Nazi bar because no one else will go
0:40:07So Nikki Haley who?
0:40:10Was the UN ambassador under Trump and one of the few people she's former governor of South Carolina
0:40:17One of the few people involved in this whole administration who has a reputation intact. She tweeted
0:40:24a my opinion of her is certainly lower but you know her opinion in the world of US politics, you know
0:40:32She tweeted after after Twitter
0:40:35Gave him the boot the permanent boot
0:40:38Here's the tweet silencing people not to mention the president of the US is what happens in China not our country
0:40:47hashtag unbelievable
0:40:49And I I've I talked about this on my other show with dithering with Ben Thompson, but I I this
0:40:56Infuriates me this one tweet
0:40:58encapsulates
0:41:00I know it's infuriating but I I salute her for so succinctly espousing this
0:41:07viewpoint of silence and
0:41:10Somebody named Jamil Jaffer tweeted a perfect response
0:41:15Another way to look at this is that forcing publishers to publish the government speech is what happens in China, right?
0:41:22And yes
0:41:22And that's good that comes to the issue of agency that that Jack Dorsey should not feel obligated to host Trump
0:41:29Spouting, you know, that's that's the opposite of it. But this right it it
0:41:36when I see these people say silencing if you replace it with
0:41:42Shaming and disgracing it works. What they're saying is we don't want to be silenced
0:41:47What they really mean is we don't want these viewpoints that we have
0:41:52To be shameful and disgraceful. We don't want this to be we don't want this to be considered shameful discourse
0:41:59We want this to be considered acceptable
0:42:01right
0:42:03Their argument isn't about free speech. It's about consequences
0:42:08Like you're saying they don't want to have to bear the consequences of what they say
0:42:13I'm so angry Mike
0:42:16And you know we lose we lose because we take the bait for four years. We have been taking the bait
0:42:24Trump says hey the Venezuelans stole our election
0:42:28Which is like what the fuck? Where did that come from? That's almost inspired
0:42:34It's almost inspired that you could come up with something that inane Hugo Shep
0:42:39But all of its puke Oh Chavez who died ten years ago
0:42:43Well, I did I don't know how can we be sure all of a sudden every newsroom in America is
0:42:52Devoting like like 30 40 50
0:42:56News news reporting hours to to to seeing whether this is true or not
0:43:05Right I
0:43:07Mean his his his evil evil evil genius
0:43:12Is that he realized people will chase every inanity that comes out of his mouth?
0:43:19and
0:43:22We're idiots because you know look at us. We're still arguing about free speech
0:43:26And this issue has absolutely zero to do with free speech
0:43:34But yet that's that's that's what we're arguing about here
0:43:39So we already took the bait we already in terms of the power
0:43:43That they say this unchecked power that the Zuckerberg and Dorsey have over their platforms and that it's too concentrated in the hands of a few
0:43:51That it is true that they have enormous power. I mean there's no question about it, but whether it's it's
0:44:01Unherald you know or
0:44:03Unprecedented I I would disagree
0:44:05I would say that the era when I grew up when you and I were kids when there were only three broadcast networks on television
0:44:12And every single adult almost every single adult in the nation is addicted to television to some degree
0:44:19Yeah, when there's only three networks that they had at least as much collective power on the but
0:44:26But they wouldn't use it you a crackpot racist the John Birch Society didn't get on
0:44:31ABC Sunday morning shows and and
0:44:34Start spouting their lunacy they kept it off. You know it was
0:44:39Yeah, I mean I would certainly argue that somebody like Walter Cronkite had a ton of right hour, but he also had a more code
0:44:46It it definitely had a tremendous amount of power, but it and you know I mean it was no joke
0:44:52I mean he was like the most you know the Gallup poll would show that he was the most respected person in America
0:44:57After he retired you know for years yeah
0:45:01The I you know it is dangerous and and to have power in the hands
0:45:08Tremendous power in the hands of private citizens, but that's that's that's the way the system works
0:45:13I mean
0:45:13And I I don't know what what regulation a government regulation of Facebook and Twitter and social networks should be it's it's hard
0:45:22hard to say I mean I I
0:45:25Would argue that the two white dudes on a podcast?
0:45:29Should not be the ones deciding
0:45:32Well luckily we won't be
0:45:35Because I don't know what they are either
0:45:39But I know I know that we need something to me the the powerful thing that is happening at this moment as we speak
0:45:47This week is and a tremendous shifting in public opinion
0:45:51I mean Trump has done so much. What are you doing popping pills over there?
0:45:55Yeah, Trump. Yeah like Katie it became a running gag
0:46:01I mean John Oliver John Oliver made we got him into a meme
0:46:06That he would do something or say something that it was so scandalous and outrageous to right thinking people
0:46:13And and we would say we got him right now
0:46:17I mean most famously the the access Hollywood tape leaking before the election right right seemed like how could this how can he possibly?
0:46:24Still get elected when he's caught on tape saying such ridiculous things
0:46:29truly profoundly just
0:46:32horrible
0:46:34Offensive and you know we got him we got him
0:46:37but this time we did this time we did get him because all of these times went and and he'd do all these things and
0:46:44his
0:46:46Support remained almost unchanged. I mean we've we've had a year-long
0:46:50pandemic that he told us
0:46:54Repeatedly on camera. I mean that's the thing he does all these things on camera told us
0:46:58It was no worse than the flu
0:47:00It was gonna wash away in April when the when the days get longer and it gets a little bit little
0:47:06Nicer weather and the northern hemisphere. It'll just go away
0:47:09I mean it just ridiculous things and his support did not go down
0:47:14Until until this week now his support has truly taken. It's like an 11 or 12 point dive
0:47:19Well his support didn't change and
0:47:23what else what the other things that didn't change was he remained white and he remained a racist and
0:47:30That's what people were voting for
0:47:34Let me take a break here and thank our next sponsor. Oh, man am I happy to talk about this
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0:49:57You know
0:49:59I walked away for a second and I came back and you were talking about 15 to 20 minute
0:50:03Casts and I thought well, he's not talking about this
0:50:05You know my other show with Ben the dithering we do 15 minutes on the button every every every every day
0:50:11Three times a week. That's that's the sweet. It's if people love it. I really should
0:50:16It's it does seem like it's a sweet spot. It's a really great
0:50:20I can't tell you how many people have written to me and said and they're always very nice because they're fans
0:50:25You know people who read my website and you know, some people love long talk shows
0:50:30You know, they love that this show is two hours long because they have you know, they just love listening to long podcasts
0:50:35But there's other people who you know
0:50:37They're listening to us right now at like 2x speed and we sound like Alvin and the chipmunks having like intercourse
0:50:44But there are so many people love the fact that dithering is only 15 minutes long because they don't want a long talk show
0:50:50so it to me it's just one of those things where the sweet spot is either be really long or
0:50:55Really short one way or the other
0:51:00Did you see him did you see Jack's
0:51:02Bullshit, no, I did not I
0:51:05Had enough I last night I had enough I got off the internet. I was just I can't take it
0:51:10I couldn't take watching these Republicans vote against impeachment couldn't take it
0:51:15Oh, I couldn't I didn't watch any of that last night the Wizard of Bitcoin got back and
0:51:20Made his first public statements since booting Trump
0:51:26He said it's he while he agreed
0:51:29with some difficulty
0:51:32With having to kick Trump off he he believes it sets a very dangerous precedent
0:51:39And then he started he went into a weird Bitcoin promo. No, are you serious? Yeah
0:51:47No, go look. It's all there
0:51:50He went into it and then he started talking about blockchain and
0:51:56And here's the scary part
0:51:58He started talking about
0:52:02Decentralized platforms. Mm-hmm and how that's the future of all this shit
0:52:09And in combination with I mean, did you see Cheryl Sandburg talking about how you know, none of this
0:52:18None of this capital riot planning happened on Facebook. No, I did not see that either. Oh, yeah, she said that
0:52:26She said that so so you got people at Facebook saying nah, it didn't happen here. We don't have a problem and
0:52:34You got Jack saying well, the only problem with our platform is that I'm still too close to the blame
0:52:40And
0:52:44You know people have been talking about like this is text moment of reckoning
0:52:50Because you know, you've got you know, all of this shit happening on Twitter and Facebook and and did they say
0:52:57parlay or parlor
0:52:59So we would be hard. Yeah, cuz they're dumb. Yeah, thank you
0:53:03And you've got they but they have things there
0:53:07You could have a parlay with somebody on parlor, but they pronounce the name of the the platform is parlor
0:53:16You know, you know sometimes waking up and deciding to be you know, it's a decision that I'm gonna wake up and be dumb
0:53:23It's a decision that people make
0:53:27Mean, this is text moment of reckoning
0:53:29Like all of this shit that's happening now is built is happening because you know, we built shit tools
0:53:36and
0:53:38we didn't care to manage those tools and we got them too big to manage in some cases and
0:53:45Badly managed in other cases. It never really gave a shit about managing
0:53:49Them in many of the cases and now what we're hearing from
0:53:54to the two biggest platforms
0:53:56arguably
0:53:59Is yeah, we still don't see a problem here
0:54:01And that scares the hell out of me. I
0:54:04Is we're not we're not done. I mean it's January 20th is not is not the goal line
0:54:12It's not like the end of the race. We're not done here
0:54:18Mean we're getting we're we're getting one
0:54:21We're getting the big one of the biggest idiots away from the nuclear codes that happens January 20th, and that's all very appreciated
0:54:28appreciated
0:54:31But these idiots that he riled up and they were always they were always
0:54:36these people
0:54:39But they never felt quite as powerful as they did when he was in charge and now they're riled up
0:54:45there to me a clear place to draw the line of
0:54:51enforcement is
0:54:54To reaffirm our
0:54:56and it sounds so
0:54:59highfalutin, but to reaffirm our culture and our society's commitment to
0:55:05the truth being
0:55:07important
0:55:09Facts right it our society's never been coming out, but but our
0:55:14It's it's been our North Store North Star though, right? We've failed in so many ways
0:55:21but we keep that's the direction that we keep going right and and it is it is a
0:55:27It goes back to the Enlightenment and it ties like political truths
0:55:34Like was this election fair did Joe Biden fairly win the election?
0:55:40it it's every bit the same sort of thinking that that got garlic Galileo locked up by the
0:55:47Catholic Church that he was doing science right and
0:55:51telling people things they didn't want to hear and
0:55:54Whether he was whether what he said was true or not and the science could be backed up by actual facts and observations
0:56:03Didn't matter right? It's it's the same sort of thing and it's
0:56:07It's like where do you draw the line, you know?
0:56:09In terms of what sort of
0:56:13Stuff going forward will not be tolerated on a platform like Twitter and it's not about disagreeing right?
0:56:21it's not that that is the the the
0:56:24What's the Voltaire line that I disagree with you, but I will you know fight to the end to support your right to say it
0:56:31It
0:56:33What can't be tolerated is promoting things that are obviously not true that has to be that it cannot be tolerated
0:56:43Do you remember when the secretary said he was okay with Holocaust? Yes, I do
0:56:50That was
0:56:53terrifying
0:56:54right it fucking
0:56:56it's really hard to imagine that and and
0:57:01It's such a slow boil, right?
0:57:03It's it were all frogs who've been in this slowly boiling pot and now here we are
0:57:09You know getting burned but it like when you and I were kids like could you imagine?
0:57:14You it would be hard to describe Facebook, but it would be fair to say, you know, who's Mark Zuckerberg
0:57:21He's he is a billionaire
0:57:23self-made billionaire who was in control of a platform a computer platform where people can
0:57:29Post things right that that's a description you could take back to your
0:57:341985 self and it would make sure you can
0:57:38Right, you can leave messages for people and this billionaire
0:57:42Who is very famous and his platform is
0:57:46exceedingly popular with billions of users
0:57:49espouses the viewpoint that Holocaust denial is
0:57:52While he doesn't certainly doesn't endorse it and doesn't agree with it. It's it's
0:57:58Tolerable speech on the platform. You wouldn't believe it you did that in the past that wouldn't that's it's hard to think of a
0:58:05of an issue that that should be less tolerated right and and wouldn't be like if you
0:58:12It's hard for me to even articulate how ridiculous that is, but he said it and he really meant it
0:58:20It was like his thoughtful considered
0:58:22Idea
0:58:26You know, yeah he did he said that and I guess that he said that and and we were in and here's here's
0:58:33What kills me about that?
0:58:35People kept working for him, I'm with you on that and I've gotten and people I
0:58:42mean people
0:58:45kept building that platform I
0:58:48Mean I can you know, I'm thinking if I was like a worker on that line
0:58:55and and if this were like a meat packing plant and
0:59:00We're down there like in the rendering pit
0:59:03And you know we get word from on high like guess what?
0:59:09Stop through stop separating the good meat from the bad meat. We're gonna sell it all I
0:59:15Would hope that me and you working next to each other were turning each other and say like what the hell what
0:59:25No, we couldn't have said that
0:59:27Let's go let's double check because we're not gonna do that John we can't sell bad meat to the people
0:59:33It's I mean even for selfish reasons. What if some of this bad meat ends up on my kids plate?
0:59:40I I guess that part of what makes this argument have legs this free speech that
0:59:46This argument that it is an issue of free speech. Is that Zuckerberg's?
0:59:51Take on that issue was about Facebook as a public
0:59:56square right it was
0:59:58Him arguing that because he supports free speech
1:00:02Right like like, you know it that that he was this is it any wonder that critics now?
1:00:09of of his decision to
1:00:12to kick Trump off the platform are calling it a
1:00:18Violation of free speech because Zuckerberg himself was promoting that mindset that way of thinking about Facebook right like
1:00:25It's if Zuckerberg wants his platform to be considered the public square
1:00:32Then his position of leadership should be up to a vote by the public
1:00:37the same as any other
1:00:41public office
1:00:44But it's not is it no it's not it's you know and and it's
1:00:49Just artful dancing
1:00:51You know that it's sophistry to argue otherwise and it's in a way that we wouldn't tolerate it in real life
1:00:58You really wouldn't we wouldn't tolerate. I mean a workplace one way
1:01:02one way to look at this is that all these platforms kicked him off when
1:01:08When he incited all that shit at the Capitol, right?
1:01:15Another way to look at it is that they kicked him off when they were done milking the husk
1:01:20Because
1:01:26What happened at the Capitol was atrocious I
1:01:30mean I'm noting there's I
1:01:34Wouldn't want to talk to anybody who would debate that point
1:01:37But if you look at what he's done in four years in power
1:01:43There have been so many other moments that were just as atrocious and that you could have seen that
1:01:49This is where it was inevitably going
1:01:51Something yeah violent. Yeah, right
1:01:54and the fact that that those didn't give
1:01:58Jack Dorsey or Mark Zuckerberg cause
1:02:02Is disgrace right
1:02:09So I think it was a combination of you know, there was some math
1:02:13There was some math done there and it was it was accounting math. This is terrible times. Well, we're done with them anyway
1:02:21Alright
1:02:23Yeah, it's it there's you know it I
1:02:29just I've
1:02:31Reused the phrase better late than never more times than I should have probably in the in the last week and I still agree with it
1:02:38I don't think that they should have said well now it's too late. He's only got ten days left in office
1:02:43Why kick him off now? We'll wait till he's out
1:02:45I don't you know, I think it was better that they did it when they did than not having done it at all
1:02:50Totally agreed totally agree. Can you I mean this isn't the amount of damage that he could do in ten days
1:02:58It's unbelievable. I mean just just think back. I mean when when
1:03:04When was the impeachment vote the first one?
1:03:10There was one yesterday
1:03:12John a president was impeached in the United States yesterday
1:03:16Does it feel like that? Oh, it doesn't it's bizarre. I
1:03:21Mean when we were kids
1:03:25There was you know, the Buchanan impeachment
1:03:27Which you know is something weird and that happened back then when you know men wore wigs and had
1:03:37Tom I am Tom sideburns
1:03:39Yeah, lamb chop sideburns and then all of a sudden there was the Clinton impeachment you're like, whoa
1:03:45Well, and there was Nixon right? Well, we grew up in the post Nixon world
1:03:49Right, right, except Nixon wasn't I mean wasn't impeached. He had the decency to quit
1:03:56But yeah, then we lived through the Clinton impeachment. It was like holy shit. This is such a big deal. This may be like
1:04:04This is such a big moment
1:04:07And
1:04:09In the last year we've lived through two more it's same guy
1:04:14And yesterday's was just like hi. Yeah, he was impeached. What are we having for dinner?
1:04:21It's very true. I honestly I was at the end of my rope yesterday. I
1:04:26Like
1:04:31Overton's window has so much plywood on it at this point. It's
1:04:35but to me the thing to keep coming back to as a first principle is a
1:04:39Commitment to truth and that the spreading of lies simply cannot be tolerated and that's that's where it all starts
1:04:45I mean, there are all sorts of political
1:04:47Viewpoints that people can espouse that I disagree with
1:04:51vehemently, but I I would you know, I would support your ability to espouse them but not not spreading lies
1:05:01Yeah, I mean because that's the other thing too about this and and one thing I've been saying to people
1:05:06and trying to think about and trying to do myself in
1:05:09when I'm writing about this and talking about it is
1:05:13to target
1:05:16the liars
1:05:18Not the people who believe the lies that doesn't mean I forgive the people who?
1:05:23Who believed the lie that this election is rigged and that they're not complicit in it and that they don't bear responsibility, you know, but to me
1:05:31It's the people who knowingly spread the lies and promoted this that deserve our ire because it's the bigger problem
1:05:37Well the bigger bigger problem do you want to talk about the bigger problem, what do you think?
1:05:43We were ready, I mean we'll believe anything that these idiots say because
1:05:48ultimately, we're freaked out as fuck that
1:05:53We really like the idea of a white America
1:05:59And it's going away and
1:06:01So we'll happily elect anybody who keeps talking about that
1:06:07And we'll believe anything they have to say you think that's partly really
1:06:12Like the how how did this happen?
1:06:15How how would how was how in the world did this mob?
1:06:19Break into the capital and I feel like the people in well, it's at some places but and why weren't they
1:06:29You know people have have pointed out
1:06:31repeatedly this the difference in the nature of
1:06:34The preparations that in the same city, Washington DC that they did over like in June for Black Lives Matter
1:06:42Protests and you know had National Guard troops wearing camouflage and body armor
1:06:48Yeah to protect the the Lincoln Memorial of all they know that's where did somebody had photos of it. You know, it's not even a
1:06:54Far less. It's just a memorial right? It's just a stat
1:06:58I heard a
1:07:00Higher
1:07:04But so why why weren't why wasn't Congress?
1:07:07protected similarly for this and I don't think I think part of it is a bit of a
1:07:12Conspiracy and I think that there are some sympathetic
1:07:14I mean, you know, we've seen the pictures that some of the police were taking selfies with the people they should have been arresting
1:07:20but I think I
1:07:23Because white people can get away
1:07:25It's because white people can get away with this yet
1:07:29There's is there any question that with the exact?
1:07:33If if January 6th had been a Black Lives Matter protest of the same size
1:07:39You know 10,000 people 15,000 people however many people were there for this protest
1:07:45That they would have been it would have been an entirely different security setup around
1:07:51The Capitol it would have been entirely different
1:07:55The closest body and I mean body
1:07:58Wouldn't have made it within 50 foot of the Capitol snobs and they would have been shot
1:08:05Black people attacking the Capitol would have been shot on site. Well, I I was thinking about this
1:08:10I don't even think that that they would have if they had tried to but they wouldn't have tried and one of the things
1:08:16while the actual riot was ensuing and we had footage of it and we could see it and then in the days afterwards when
1:08:24You know the cell phone video and stuff like that came out the thing that's so shocking is how the the perpetrators the mob
1:08:31They they they weren't scared in the least bit
1:08:34There was you know, like I saw you've never asked
1:08:39Oh, they've never had to be I saw firsthand. I saw looting here in in Philadelphia back in June
1:08:45when the protests went bad and
1:08:51The one thing it was very clear that the people doing it
1:08:55were had that nervous energy of
1:08:59People who thought they might be shot at any moment right like the people just running people just running out of a
1:09:08modal sporting goods with a fistful of sneakers
1:09:12Boxes as the sneakers they had that nervous energy where they there was sort of a giddy rush of you know
1:09:21mayhem
1:09:22But they also had the nervous energy of people who?
1:09:24Wouldn't have been the least bit surprised to hear gunshots coming from police officers at any moment. Whereas these the
1:09:31This crowd who took the capital they were strolling like that the numskull from Florida who stole
1:09:38Nancy Pelosi's podium he was posing
1:09:41You know and again, it's not that you know, not even did they think that they'd be arrested over
1:09:48But there was no fear that they were going to be shot it is so I don't think black lives
1:09:53Matter black protesters would have never tried this because they they would have assumed they'd be shot
1:09:59Of course
1:10:02It is a crazy
1:10:04It's insane that they because they were white and looked like well
1:10:09They're certainly the you know, white people certainly wouldn't barge in and storm the Capitol. So, you know, we don't need any extra
1:10:18Security well, they don't have to they were they're invited in they were invited in
1:10:22And I don't mean just that day they were invited in the day before they were given tours by some of the Congress people
1:10:28What did you see stories about that? I've seen some like with this bobert woman
1:10:35Well, I forget her first name, but she's the one who made the video that went viral
1:10:39bragging about the fact that she planned to
1:10:42Carry a this is before you know
1:10:45before this happened that she was going to
1:10:47Carry a gun around Congress and became an internet sensation, but I saw that
1:10:53That I think it was her who brought people in the day before
1:10:57Yeah, she was giving people tours like the same people who would go go to riot the next day
1:11:02Well, and then her speech, you know it you have to see it, you know
1:11:07I I think the the transcript alone doesn't convey the sense of what she's saying
1:11:12But when she gave a speech during the fight over whether to certify this election
1:11:17She said I have constituents who were out there right now and the way she said it was very clear
1:11:22It wasn't just oh, that's an unfortunate way of saying it because she knew she had constituents who were at the protest
1:11:27She knew that they were coming to storm the Capitol
1:11:29You know, all you need to know about how fair this election was is
1:11:35Is how much conservatives are fighting against it?
1:11:39What explain?
1:11:42I think this is probably the most fair election we've ever had and I think you know, Georgia supports that
1:11:47And oh my god
1:11:50The work that Stacey Abrams did that's unbelievable right is she's it's she's quite possibly one of the most effective
1:11:59leaders that
1:12:01In my adult lifetime that we've ever had in our nation it what she did in Georgia is just astounding and it's the diligent
1:12:08Hard work, right? So for people who don't follow it, she she had it, you know talk about a rigged election
1:12:14she lost the governor's race in Georgia and
1:12:17I know that that's sort of the dastardly thing that that Trump has this ability of of saying
1:12:24you know that because he wants to he he he made lock her up a chant right and
1:12:30Therefore then when he faces the the law
1:12:35Come January 21st
1:12:38He he and his supporters can say that that this is just retribution because
1:12:42It's you know, same reason that he said lock her up now
1:12:46They're saying lock him up and it doesn't you know, you can't say that I trust me there make the argument
1:12:51They'll say you can't say that Hillary Clinton should not have been
1:12:54Chanted against lock her up and now turn around and say that Trump should be locked up
1:13:00But that's it's just nonsense because she didn't commit crimes. He did. Yeah, there were no crimes. I mean
1:13:08Um, I
1:13:09Believe it was Stacey Abrams who said and if I and if I'm wrong about this quote forgive me
1:13:14but I believe that she was the one who said
1:13:17The South is not read the South is suppressed
1:13:22mm-hmm and
1:13:25I and she proved that right she proved that in Georgia at least and I I I
1:13:34Think the the the conservatives issue with this election was that
1:13:39Holy shit
1:13:41Our rigging didn't work our rigging
1:13:44Didn't work
1:13:46We have been rigging these elections
1:13:48For
1:13:52ever and
1:13:54Somehow this this woman in her and her organization and all of her people
1:14:03Managed to do like the impossible and
1:14:05They got all these people to vote who
1:14:09We didn't want voting. I saw a
1:14:13Fascinating interview back during remember how long ago was that like that that week between the election and the networks calling it?
1:14:22officially for Biden I
1:14:24That was that was 16 years ago
1:14:27I I was watching MSNBC and I think it was at some point midweek
1:14:33it was you know in after the election and
1:14:35Before the networks called it but like at a point where the state of Wisconsin was officially called for Biden
1:14:43and they had the I forgot doesn't matter what's name is but you know the guy who was in charge of the
1:14:50Democratic National Committee in Wisconsin on MSNBC and they were congratulating him saying, you know
1:14:56This was a lot closer than the polls
1:14:58Were saying Wisconsin would be you did a great job and he just said whoa, whoa. Whoa, let me just say right now
1:15:04I don't deserve anywhere near as much credit for Wisconsin as you're giving me
1:15:09Stacey Abrams does and they're like, well, you know, she was running it in Georgia and he goes no you don't understand
1:15:15she came up here last year in 2019 and
1:15:19took a look at our organization and
1:15:22Told us she left us with a plan that we followed to a T and we realized we had no plan, you know
1:15:29Her she it's not just Georgia she is is really she's like a genius and at an
1:15:38organizational level of
1:15:41Following, you know like writing a computer program
1:15:43Do this do that if this then do this then do this and and do the hard work?
1:15:50and the thing that is so astounding to me is
1:15:52That she got to work on this as soon as she had that election stolen from her in Georgia just immediately
1:16:00No, no time of self-pity. No wallowing just got to work and look at this. It's really unbelievable and so
1:16:08Biden didn't need any one of these states, right?
1:16:12Georgia could have been a few thousand votes in the other direction and Trump could have won Georgia and Biden still wins the election
1:16:17but he needed a bunch and if Georgia hadn't been
1:16:20For Biden and Wisconsin hadn't and Wisconsin was so close
1:16:24This guy was saying if Stacey Abrams hadn't helped Wisconsin Democrats in Wisconsin. They would he said we would have lost
1:16:30There's no question in his mind. I
1:16:33Mean this is he you know right after the election people people we saw people like well
1:16:40This isn't the last time we thought it would be
1:16:42And I was like, holy shit. It was an it was an absolutely
1:16:48Landslide it had to be a landslide
1:16:50There was it had to be a landslide to get through all of the barriers and just get to the other side
1:16:58Yeah, and we were never gonna get to the other side with you know
1:17:0350 million more votes than the other dude, right?
1:17:08But it took it took everything
1:17:14It's I I think it's just so hard to articulate how close we came to
1:17:19Losing this losing and really losing democracy. I mean, I don't think I don't think so either. I
1:17:25think yeah, right, we're still in a
1:17:28Straw house with a bunch of people flicking matches, you know at the walls. Yeah
1:17:34We just don't have a fire right at the moment
1:17:37But if if Trump had won man, it's you could see it that what that was it
1:17:41That was it and I know it sounds like hyperbole and people you know, what I know
1:17:46You know, uh, you know I in in 2016 in 26
1:17:51No way 2017. I'm sorry in 2017. I was going around and I was doing a talk
1:17:57called how to fight fascism and you know mostly like online shit, but
1:18:03catchy title so I ran with it and
1:18:08I made mention several times in the talk about you know
1:18:11fascist activities on lines and everything online and things like that and
1:18:16After the first time I did it during the Q&A somebody like stood up and they're like you can't just call anyone
1:18:23You don't like a fascist, right?
1:18:25and I was like
1:18:28You know, I'm talking about actual fascists here, right
1:18:35This isn't just me like picking a dirty word to call people who hurt my feelings
1:18:41We're talking actual fascists
1:18:45In see it
1:18:49People in see it. There's it I
1:18:51You don't hear it
1:18:53I don't know why the word sort of disappeared but for a while there people would talk about fanboys and I had this line
1:19:00You know people would would accuse me of being an Apple fanboy, right? Okay, I lost count of how many times I faced that accusation
1:19:07And my my my zinger was that I enjoyed collecting
1:19:12Remarks from people who's the guy who owns the Dallas Mount Mavericks? He's one mark Cuban. Yeah, he's one of them where where
1:19:22These people's definition of a Mac
1:19:25Apple or Mac fanboy is somebody
1:19:29Anybody who was into Apple's devices before they were?
1:19:32Right, it's like the moment that mark mark
1:19:36Yeah, Cuban became a Mac user and started espousing how great the platform was but in the past he had accused
1:19:42You know people of being wrong
1:19:44It's it's the same sort of mindset where it's like these people they don't acknowledge that we were right that Trump was a deranged
1:19:52lunatic and a danger a menace to the nation in the world
1:19:57And they called us what they call it Trump derangement syndrome, right?
1:20:00And instead of saying huh? You guys were right. This guy was a menace to the world there their perspective is
1:20:07No, you were still wrong and it was all hyperbole
1:20:10It's just that I came around to the idea that he's dangerous at the right time, which was
1:20:15Right when there's a nitwit run running around the halls of Congress with a confederate flag inside the building
1:20:24Anybody anybody who knew what the hell they were talking about or had any sense of history
1:20:28Saw this four years ago anymore
1:20:33You know Sarah Sarah Kensier who wrote Hiding in Plain Sight. Yes Hiding in Plain Sight. Yes
1:20:41She's amazing. And I mean she's been talking about this shit on Twitter forever and she
1:20:47Nailed it like she like back when you know Trump started doing his thing
1:20:53She was like here's what's going to happen piece by piece by piece by piece and it'll happen in this order and all of those things
1:21:01happened
1:21:01right, but
1:21:03It's like there's these it's it's almost like
1:21:07People are arguing at the meta level saying you you can't call the president fascist
1:21:13But that's not the argument. Well, you can't it right? That's the thing is it?
1:21:17it's like it this bizarre viewpoint that it can't be that the president can't be a
1:21:24Narcissistic sociopath. That's that just can't be yes. It can be it absolutely can be
1:21:29You know, you know where else I see this a lot
1:21:32Is is is when guys decide that their friends
1:21:38Didn't fuck up because they're good guys, right?
1:21:41right
1:21:44So you define the person?
1:21:46And then every action that they take falls under that umbrella
1:21:52That you've decided that person is versus defining their actions. No, that's a very good analogy
1:21:59No, it's it's it's how high up in the stack your your priorities are and if they're if so Steve
1:22:05Steve can do good things and he can do some bad things
1:22:09And we call Steve on the bad things he does and we praise him for the good things. He does
1:22:15Rather than Steve's a good guy
1:22:18therefore
1:22:20Everything Steve does is good and you hear you hear Trump talking that way about people to like Oh Epstein
1:22:27Yeah, dude, good, dude. Yeah
1:22:29One of anybody well one of my favorite
1:22:35Moments of this whole thing because it really was a light bulb going off in my head was was back when
1:22:41Woodward's book came out in August talk about something that feels like it was 16 years ago
1:22:46but Bob Woodward second book comes out and Trump, you know, and it has contains all sorts of scathing just
1:22:52absolutely scathing
1:22:55facts about the lunacy of this man and
1:22:58Trump was talking about his phone calls with Woodward and I guess I think it's because Woodward had had tapes, right?
1:23:06He taped all the phone calls
1:23:08and
1:23:09He's playing I think he was on the Colbert show and Woodward is playing a tape of Trump talking to him and he's like
1:23:16just tell me Bob, is it a good book and
1:23:18What Trump meant clearly about a good book is whether it was flattering to him or not
1:23:25It had nothing to do with is it is it actually interesting? Is it historically significant reporting?
1:23:31Is it well written are the sentences good or even is it printed?
1:23:36Well, is it a nice book to hold what he thinks a good book is is a book that was
1:23:41Flattering to him and that's it. Of course
1:23:45Yeah
1:23:47Very fair very fair to me very fair said nice things
1:23:50And he's even said to him. He's like your last book. It was terrible
1:23:54It was a terrible book and I'm telling you Bob if you write a good book, it'll sell trust me
1:23:58That's what people want to read. Yeah a
1:24:00Book telling you the world how great he is
1:24:03Speaking of books. Yeah. Well, let me take a break and
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1:25:29Let's talk about your book you have a new book how many books have you written Mike?
1:25:32This is number four
1:25:36What in and the name of the new book is
1:25:39The collected anger I love that I love the cover are you sending me a copy I don't have it yet
1:25:45Yeah, I'm absolutely sending you a copy
1:25:48Can we talk about this typeface I?
1:25:52Look oh, did you design the cover? Did you do the cover I?
1:25:56did I
1:25:59Mean I I'm only talking about the typeface because I want to give props to the type designer
1:26:04Otherwise I would I would be yelling at you for starting a conversation about a book by talking about a typeface
1:26:09The the typeface is Bayard how do you spell that god? I hope I'm pronouncing that right spell it
1:26:18Be a why a RD a why a RD I would say Bayard
1:26:24Bayard and it's by vocal type and
1:26:29vocal type I
1:26:33Think vocal type is just one person
1:26:35tray
1:26:38And but in case they're not I'll keep saying they and referring to vocal type
1:26:45Vocal type is making typefaces based on
1:26:52Civil rights signs and a lettering style of that era
1:26:57Yeah, and they're beautiful
1:27:00I mean not only are the typefaces beautiful, but the fonts themselves. They've done a really fantastic job
1:27:07Making you know quality like technically speaking
1:27:12Open types often you know they're they're visually stunning and
1:27:18Technically robust here's the thing about this typeface that I and we can talk about the book more
1:27:25but the thing about this typeface III I would love to
1:27:27just
1:27:30You know give you I you know you and I we are publicly we we give each other a hard time, right?
1:27:35We bust each other's balls
1:27:37I would love to bust your balls about it
1:27:39But I can't because it's just it is the perfect font for your voice it is
1:27:45Somehow it is you it's hard to believe that this typeface wasn't made just for you to use on this book
1:27:53It is well. What's there um I?
1:27:58You know considering that considering where it came from and its history
1:28:02I'm honored, but you would say that and I'm mostly I'm relieved that I haven't embarrassed it
1:28:09So what is the book about the subtitle is essays about design for an unwilling audience explain?
1:28:16This is the book that you put together when you've been sitting at home for 10 months under quarantine
1:28:27You can barely put two words together to write anything new
1:28:31and
1:28:34You start reading over your old stuff
1:28:36and
1:28:39Realizing that ain't some of this old stuff is pretty good, and it's scattered all over the internet and
1:28:47Who knows how long the Internet's going to be around?
1:28:54And there was definitely I mean that was definitely a concern during the campaign
1:29:00That you know we might all be living in caves eating nuts and berries and at that point. I wanted you to have a book
1:29:07It's it's nowhere near as funny as it would have sounded years ago, but it is still funny
1:29:15That's sad how close we came well anyway, I really I just wanted to put all the old stuff together in a volume
1:29:24and
1:29:25If if you've read the other three books
1:29:28One thank you and two some of this may sound familiar
1:29:34Because the the way that I
1:29:38Do the way that I write everything is I start with an essay?
1:29:43Or what we used to call blog posts
1:29:48You start with an essay and then at some point some of them were like hey wait a minute
1:29:54that's I want to turn that one in with talk or
1:29:56That one is actually let's blow that up into a whole book where that one may be the chapter of a book
1:30:04so they kind of become like Lego pieces and
1:30:08You know you break up the essays and you know recombine them with other things
1:30:17So they've all been
1:30:19Most some of them have come out have come out as parts of books
1:30:23If you've seen a talk here and there some of this will sound familiar
1:30:29But this is all that stuff in its original essay form
1:30:34Where can people find this book?
1:30:37They can go everywhere everywhere my preferred method is if you go to bookshop.org
1:30:47And get it there
1:30:49because they will they
1:30:51Kick back a percentage of the cash to local independent books bookshops
1:30:56Isn't that it talk about things that it just
1:31:00Try explaining to your
1:31:0430 year ago self that
1:31:07Bookshops would be in danger in the year 2020
1:31:12And you would think what what is there an apocalypse?
1:31:16I mean and I guess you know we've had it we do have a pandemic and it has furthered
1:31:21Yeah, it's stress and so that actually is further stress point, but of all this sort of
1:31:27It does it sounds like something out of you know an Orwell book. You know the idea that bookshops are
1:31:34endangered
1:31:38It's still I still find it incredibly hard to believe that borders is gone, and I know that that's not an independent books bookstore, but
1:31:44That's it's like I get what you mean. You know it. How could that how how could that be you know?
1:31:51Anyway, so I mean
1:31:54Borders was kind of like either borders or Barnes & Noble was like every little book reading nerds
1:32:01first bookstore
1:32:04we had we had at the mall is where I grew up we had a
1:32:08Walden books, and what was the other one?
1:32:12Walden books, that's yeah
1:32:14But I think Walden books one of them was was like the sub brand for borders and one of them was the sub brand for
1:32:22What's the other big mega chain? Oh?
1:32:24It was like some initial thing like wh yeah
1:32:29Mmm. I loved I don't I always it's just my parents would have to drag me out of the bookstore at the mall
1:32:37It's just it was just what I was it just felt like heaven. I don't know I
1:32:41Would be willing to go on any mall trip with my parents
1:32:46Because I would escape and go to the bookstore
1:32:50I was just thinking about that too
1:32:52I was thinking about how I used to we used to go to
1:32:55Do our grocery shopping at Pathmark once a week and I would go with my mom and I would just go to the newsstand
1:33:00And I could tell I was thinking about this in bed
1:33:02I was I I could tell you I don't remember almost anything else about that pathmark
1:33:06but I could tell you how to get to where the magazines were and
1:33:09And I would did you have the little racist books and oh yeah, yeah the little you remember little racist joke
1:33:17Yeah, but I don't think they sold those at Pathmark right oh
1:33:24Yeah, you're right at the registers no and it'd be like yeah, there'd be like oh my god
1:33:28That's so true that it would be like they were two they were two puns
1:33:31You flipped it over be like Polish jokes on the one side and Italian jokes on the other side
1:33:36Right right yeah, and they would just sell them at the checkout at the supermarket
1:33:42Yep
1:33:44my favorite day
1:33:45And I should have subscribed but in some ways in some ways
1:33:50We have come a long way as a society in some way
1:33:54They
1:33:57They sold Polish joke books at the cash register
1:34:00and it
1:34:03Market and you and that is so true that you you turn it upside down and from the back forward it'd be like Italian jokes
1:34:10That's unbelievable. Yep. I
1:34:14Loved going to the supermarket for that reason and I would buy mad magazine so I wouldn't read mad magazine
1:34:21There and my mom would would you know let me buy it. I would read all the other magazines that you wouldn't let me buy
1:34:28Right
1:34:31That's good strategy. It's like maximize my
1:34:33My reading material and the supermarket unlike like a neighborhood shop right like we had like a neighborhood
1:34:41Like coffee shop type place that sold comic books and the guy would come out Jake
1:34:47He was the guy who owned the place if you sat there, and you know he'd give you know this isn't the same library kids
1:34:53You know we'd you know so we'd go in there and start reading the comic books
1:34:57We didn't want to buy until the man who owned the store would say get out of here
1:35:00Or you know buy it the pathmark didn't care. They didn't care if I sat there and read
1:35:05Newsweek cover to cover
1:35:07They did they did not it felt. I felt like I was getting getting away with something
1:35:12They that's because your mom was walking around filling a grocery basket a giant cart
1:35:20Which probably totaled $60?
1:35:24Well the other thing yeah, totally you fill a cart for like six forty seven bucks
1:35:32Yep, and then they complain think that's that's too much well it always astounded me that there were other kids in the
1:35:40Supermarket who weren't doing the same thing like what why aren't you here reading with me?
1:35:45What do you what in the world are you doing? Why would you want to walk up and down the aisles of a supermarket?
1:35:49We've really come a long way
1:35:54Anyway the book looks great. I am looking forward to getting my copy from you because I don't want to buy it
1:36:02But if I were going to buy it I would go to bookshop.org buy it from an independent seller
1:36:07But you could find this book anywhere that books are sold
1:36:10Anything else you want to we're not we're not using the name of that other place, but yeah
1:36:17It's there too if you and if I know you've got some some some a lot of Apple
1:36:24aficionados, let's say I'll listen to this it's available as an e-book at the Apple well I
1:36:31Get it any literally anywhere books are sold anything else you want to promote people can find you on Twitter at Montero
1:36:39on M O N T E I R O
1:36:41Unless I've been suspended
1:36:45which
1:36:47happens every couple weeks now
1:36:51You used to be Mike for the win Mike FTW how did you pronounce your old Twitter handle?
1:36:55Did you say Mike for the winner Mike FTW? I?
1:36:58Think I would say FTW
1:37:02Underscore FTW that's a long time ago. I never I didn't know I'm not good with acronyms
1:37:06I didn't know what FTW stood for for a long time
1:37:09But you and I were friends and I knew it was your handle and I really didn't I thought it was like
1:37:13Fuck the world or something. I wasn't even sure I
1:37:16Hear that one a lot too from people
1:37:20And you know when they thought it meant that I'm you know, fine run with it
1:37:25run with
1:37:28But anyway, just just keep saving call it
1:37:31Because you know that pays my rent
1:37:34this has been
1:37:37For me a stress relief. I enjoyed talking about this with you
1:37:41And I'm really glad to have had you on the show and it it's one of those episodes of my show
1:37:46Where in hindsight who else would I have had on this week to talk about these Michigan's other than you?
1:37:54Really?
1:37:55You know the I always love coming on this show John and I want to apologize because
1:38:02Your regular listener has probably stopped listening about an hour and 30 minutes. Yeah. Well, we'll send them over from your Twitter account though
1:38:09There you go. Well, but that's the other thing too. And let me just say this
1:38:14We you know regularly scheduled programming will come back
1:38:17but I four years ago Merlin came on the show after the election and we had a
1:38:22We called it a holiday party. I was drunk
1:38:25This November Merlin came back on and I was not drunk because Biden had won
1:38:34There are times when to me and I get it so so you drink when you're sad but not happy I
1:38:46I drank too much after Trump won four years ago to be honest. I mean it
1:38:50It was a temporary coping message
1:38:54mechanism that I should have no I guess I should have should have had the wherewithal as as a grown man to
1:39:01Stare it in the face, but I I couldn't honestly and again a lot it was I I
1:39:07Again, I don't want to Lord this over. I'm not looking for
1:39:12My son Jonas is famous being right points, you know our family currency here in the Gruber household
1:39:17No, I know that I love a being right point I don't really want it it's I'm not looking for yes you were right but I I
1:39:26Saw, you know, I didn't know how it would happen, but it's like every president
1:39:31Which president has ever not faced a major crisis?
1:39:35It that's the way the world works. That's the job and when this man was faced with a crisis
1:39:41He was going to do the exact wrong thing. And here we are, you know with the goddamn pandemic
1:39:47Among other also, let's not let's not jinx it because I don't know when this is being released
1:39:54But I'm worst. I'm still looking at six days. Well, I've had that count
1:40:00I have a kind of put a countdown on my website before the election and then some I forget who it was
1:40:05but after the election
1:40:07Just a little number up in the corner and somebody said you should bring it back and make it for Inauguration Day
1:40:12And I've had it up for I don't know 90 days or something. I
1:40:16I've
1:40:18Long I greatly enjoy seeing it now in the single digits, but I really really cannot wait for that number to be zero
1:40:26How much do you think we're gonna sleep like I
1:40:34My wife has said she cannot believe how much better she's sleeping now that his
1:40:38Twitter is unplugged and and she gets up before I do. I'm the night owl. She wakes up
1:40:44earlier and our
1:40:47It the oddest ritual that I didn't anticipate how it would make me feel is that I no longer wake up and say
1:40:54to her
1:40:56Any anything, you know meaning what what is Trump been tweeting about today?
1:41:02That's how for years that's how we've spent most of the last four years is my I you know, good morning
1:41:07Anything, you know, no, he's golfing, you know or nope. Oh wait till you see it
1:41:15He's gone off on whatever it is. It is an incredible relief it is
1:41:21That was the really terrifying part is that it could have been literally anything
1:41:28It is it's it's it's it's like when you have like a browser tab that's consuming a huge chunkier CPU
1:41:34And it makes everything on your computer. Your scrolling is a little janky
1:41:38Having that tab closed in my mind is unbelievable. I feel like I've gained 20 IQ points
1:41:45It's I feel like I just shut down an Adobe product, you know, it's the same way
1:41:50You know you hear I I'm trying to wrap this up
1:41:53But it's it's like when you go through when you when you personally or a loved one goes through a health crisis of any kind
1:41:59You can't get anything else done. It's too consuming
1:42:01You just can't you know, it's you'd like to think you you can you know, then that you can
1:42:07Compartmentalize stuff but when something like that is weighing in your in your head, you know that this this idiot might start a war
1:42:16With a tweet, it's crazy
1:42:20Yeah, anyway, I am so glad to get this
1:42:23Talking to you last show this is this will almost certainly be the last episode of the talk show in the Trump administration
1:42:31But that feels good
1:42:34the Dorsey administration
1:42:36You know, what did we not talk about
1:42:39What the hell happened like like if you had been a like to be a fly on the wall
1:42:48Inside Twitter, I mean there's no inside Twitter. It was probably all over zoom or something
1:42:54But the actual conversation
1:42:57Where and I'm guessing I'm guessing there are probably like a pack of pretty high up employees
1:43:06Who went in at once?
1:43:09And we're like enough. I would love to see it documented. I it's been Ben Thompson. I've talked about this that it
1:43:16For all my criticism, I think Facebook is far greater threat to society than Twitter
1:43:21I think Facebook is a real problem
1:43:23but I will give Zuckerberg credit for
1:43:26Having a coherent strategy for dealing with this and when they finally pulled the trigger
1:43:31they just pulled the trigger the way that Twitter gave him a 12-hour timeout and
1:43:35temporarily, it was banned and then the next
1:43:38It just was so incoherent
1:43:41That's that to me had to be the precipitating moment where the executives went to Jack and said Jackie
1:43:47How could how in the world can we end a 12-hour timeout? He just this this can't be
1:43:52You know
1:43:54Well, I wouldn't be sure they were all executives either. Yeah, I don't know
1:43:57I would like to you know what they did there was there
1:43:59I don't I don't want to know I don't want to know because honestly if we were to find out now
1:44:04I think some of those people might be in danger. Yeah, it's true. Well, they there was a letter, you know that rank-and-file
1:44:10employees said I did hear about the letter and I believe the letter was before the 12-hour
1:44:17Timeout I could be wrong there. I forget to
1:44:21Yeah, but I mean remember they let him back on after the 12-hour timeout
1:44:27And at that point every other platform was already booting him permanently
1:44:33It's just it's very strange response. You know, I mean it's like
1:44:39Not if you not if you not if you know anything about addiction. Hmm
1:44:44Yeah, that's it's that's the best analogy I can think of it's true
1:44:49Jack Jack Dorsey is addicted to Donald Trump as
1:44:53Much as Donald Trump is addicted to tweeting and it was it was like a bargaining maneuver, right?
1:44:59Okay, 12 hours of shutout not just can't post but we're gonna disable the account for 12 hours, you know
1:45:06It's oh I can do it. I can I can go 12 hours. I can go 12 hours. Yeah
1:45:11We've all heard this. Yeah, it's true. I
1:45:14Can go 12 hours. It's not a problem. Anyway two better times ahead. Thanks, Mike
1:45:20better times ahead