0:00:01[Music]
0:00:06the in comfortable number 282 january to
0:00:12answer 16
0:00:15hello everybody welcome back to the
0:00:17uncomfortable i'm your host Jason smell
0:00:18i am joined by fine panel of people this
0:00:20week we're going to talk about the
0:00:22recently-concluded series 9 of Doctor
0:00:25Who from the BBC you know I definitely
0:00:27one of my favorites and so we talk about
0:00:30a lot we don't do the flash cast on this
0:00:32podcast feed me more because we do them
0:00:34over at the TV podcast feed part of the
0:00:36great and comfortable network that posts
0:00:38like 2 pi guess today so many podcast
0:00:41you can listen to the mall but anyway if
0:00:43you like if you like our episode by
0:00:45episode you can check that out but we
0:00:47like to check in at the end of a doctor
0:00:48who season and do an episode on the
0:00:49incomparable about the season as a whole
0:00:51and I've got a great panel to join me to
0:00:54talk about that Glenn fleischmann you
0:00:56you know you may remember him from the
0:00:59four episodes he was on last year but
0:01:00he's been in both of the episode so far
0:01:02this year he's here Michael and by my
0:01:05math that means I'll be a hundred so the
0:01:06episodes 4 2016 you're on pace for 52
0:01:09episodes this year so keep it up
0:01:11also on pace for 52 episodes this year
0:01:14is David Laura hello hello stranger
0:01:17you're a day and more and already well
0:01:19not hard now
0:01:21ok just a little competitive the trash
0:01:24talk now and and trying to repeat erase
0:01:27her raise her standing back to what it
0:01:29was in 2014 Eric and also 242 hello
0:01:32hello
0:01:33yeah and i need to get my numbers back
0:01:34up last year was embarrassing
0:01:36I'm happy to have you here to talk
0:01:38doctor who this is one of those things
0:01:39where I now have so many friends who are
0:01:41Doctor Who podcasters as well which is
0:01:43great also hear our control group he's
0:01:45never seen Doctor Who before wait a
0:01:47second that's Babylon 5 it is serious
0:01:49advancing from Radio Free Skaro hello hi
0:01:52there I was actually hoping to get some
0:01:53words in about Star Wars if you've got a
0:01:55podcast series 9 starts with a two-part
0:02:00up as a lot of two part or paired
0:02:02episodes this season the Steven Moffat
0:02:05written magician's apprentice and
0:02:07witch's familiar in which the doctor
0:02:09meets Davros as a child as a as an old
0:02:14shriveled monster man and uh and missy
0:02:18is there and there's a lot of the Clara
0:02:21Missy interaction on earth where the
0:02:23doctor isn't and then also on Skaro
0:02:26where they are with
0:02:27they end up so this this was our kickoff
0:02:30and and i'm interested what everybody
0:02:33father this uh I you know I as with all
0:02:38these I did the episodes on the on the
0:02:39TV podcast about them but it's different
0:02:42to think about it sort of after awhile
0:02:44vs after literally haven't seen it an
0:02:46hour before the thing that strikes me
0:02:49knowing the whole season artist i'm
0:02:50surprised that this is the only time we
0:02:52saw Missy this season but it this is not
0:02:54kicking off other than the mention of
0:02:56the confession dial the opening to
0:02:58partner is not about the series wide
0:03:01story arc it you know dhafra Davros
0:03:04doesn't come back the Daleks don't
0:03:05really come back Missy doesn't come back
0:03:07it's just a two-parter about Davros and
0:03:11the Daleks and missy and the doctor alka
0:03:13and and Clara all kind of turned up
0:03:15together which is kind of nice i kinda
0:03:18anarkali and but of course it didn't it
0:03:20didn't stop nerds from you know
0:03:23extrapolating everything from that
0:03:24opening to party because they've come to
0:03:26expect it over the years to say whatever
0:03:28is laid down in episode one is gonna
0:03:30come back and episode 12
0:03:32there was even a I think when dealing
0:03:35with Clarence because you know Claire
0:03:36was leaving at the end of the series
0:03:37everybody knew that and I think a whole
0:03:39bunch of people were sort of thinking oh
0:03:41perhaps or something to do with the
0:03:42Dalek in this story and perhaps she's
0:03:45actually dead in the Dalek and we'll
0:03:47find out at the end of the series that
0:03:49he's actually been dead the whole series
0:03:50and but don't nothing nothing that can
0:03:53pass he says to her I'm sorry I'm so
0:03:54sorry and I was like oh that's a little
0:03:56foreshadowing and then there's no payoff
0:03:58I love the clear for the callback know
0:04:00about when we've seen Jenna Coleman
0:04:01inside the Dalek before right that was
0:04:04that was that was kind of nice
0:04:05interesting use of divers here I think
0:04:06Julian bleach did a really good job is
0:04:08Davros i'm not entirely sure i buy the
0:04:10whole haha but I've double-crossed you
0:04:14haha but I've double-crossed you kind of
0:04:17thing that happens in the end but there
0:04:18are a lot of really great kind of
0:04:20johnston moments between them there are
0:04:22interesting and the parallel between
0:04:23those two and then and then missy kind
0:04:26of using Clara as her anti companion i
0:04:29thought that was all kind of very very
0:04:31clever even while the plot was kinda
0:04:33creaking along
0:04:34yeah i like i like to very much the I I
0:04:36was ok with the diverse you know you
0:04:38know that the chess game the one up each
0:04:39other even at the end
0:04:41because it seems sort of fitting for
0:04:42their given what they have gone through
0:04:44those two characters over the last many
0:04:46many years and and as far as if i was
0:04:50glad that this didn't come back that we
0:04:52didn't get more Daleks and moored
0:04:54avarice at the end made that already
0:04:56didn't ya and Lynn Lynn on Verity she
0:05:00has like that which he refers to as like
0:05:01the Steven Moffat rule any season that's
0:05:04written by steven moffat she just she
0:05:06refuses to really judge as a season
0:05:08until it's completely done and she comes
0:05:10back she's always withholding judgment
0:05:11because he's always going to do
0:05:13something that you don't expect probably
0:05:15and and i think i love the fact that
0:05:18this episode like Stephen said got all
0:05:20the nerds you know getting their
0:05:21conspiracy theories already it was none
0:05:24of that probably the only little Davros
0:05:26thing that that bugs me a little bit was
0:05:28the idea that he's just been keeping his
0:05:30real eyes closed
0:05:31this whole time yeah I thought he didn't
0:05:34have any eyes I just I don't know that
0:05:36was that was maybe a little a little
0:05:38step too far that he was able to open
0:05:39his eyes and they looked so healthy and
0:05:41young in that i did--like that he double
0:05:44crossed himself too i think we talked
0:05:45about it maybe maybe offline or online
0:05:47rather not a podcast that that uh he is
0:05:50saying one thing a high fool you but
0:05:52really he had had a real emotional
0:05:54moment with the doctor and there was you
0:05:56know it was presented i think was active
0:05:58beautifully i think the whole bit
0:06:00was I was like something's going on here
0:06:01but I thought maybe maybe we're getting
0:06:03a different kind of insight maybe
0:06:05somebody double-crosses Davros comes
0:06:07from outside this scene or the Daleks
0:06:09come in and in these like haha fooled
0:06:11you into grabbing the cable but I'm like
0:06:13now you revealed a little too much for
0:06:14yourself i love those moments when they
0:06:16transcend the script they transcend the
0:06:18acting and they become that you know
0:06:20mythology that that has a it's routine
0:06:23is rooted in emotion but it's also like
0:06:25that was a great like deeply but many
0:06:28layers seen in the middle of a good
0:06:30episode 2
0:06:31yeah I i like to think that Davros I
0:06:34think you put said well some some more
0:06:36he gave some more information out that
0:06:38perhaps intended to and I i want to
0:06:40think that I want to think that we've
0:06:41gotten some insight and this wasn't all
0:06:43just kind of a sham
0:06:44that's part of his plot that we got a
0:06:47little bit of insight into your
0:06:48character i got just like showing him as
0:06:49a child you know
0:06:50Davros had to come from somewhere and be
0:06:53somebody before he be
0:06:54name a monster and so to see that is
0:06:56interesting i loved and I'll enjoyed
0:06:59listening to this we talk about it on
0:07:01the opening TV podcast but we also
0:07:03talked about it or I heard are people
0:07:05talking about it on radio free Skaro and
0:07:06on on very the idea that this call back
0:07:09to genesis of the Daleks and the
0:07:11audacity of Steven Moffat to name-check
0:07:15and like reference in so many ways this
0:07:18hallowed piece of doctor who classic
0:07:21Doctor Who cannon that that's ground
0:07:23that I mean you gotta you gotta you
0:07:25gotta have guts to to to go there and he
0:07:29went there and and that moment that I
0:07:31saw the fog kind of blowing across the
0:07:33battlefield I was like oh geez its
0:07:35genesis of the Daleks and that's exactly
0:07:36what it was so full credit to him for
0:07:39having that the guts to do that well
0:07:41select the political timing that we have
0:07:43you know would you kill baby diverse and
0:07:45then then it's could you kill baby
0:07:47Hitler was what like days later this
0:07:49translator please watch doctor who
0:07:51wanted you'll get all the answers that
0:07:52you need your passion to baby Hitler
0:07:55yeah and I i mean i like that none of
0:07:58the plot machinations really came back
0:08:01later or any of the things except for
0:08:03the confession dial but it it fits
0:08:06automatically with things that are going
0:08:09on through the rest of the season which
0:08:11I really liked
0:08:12yeah i love the sheen stealing bits by
0:08:15missy because she's so wonderful i just
0:08:18michelle gomez fantastic but that the
0:08:20i'm thinking of making this is just
0:08:22nonchalantly has jenna strong as a Clara
0:08:25strung up and then when she says
0:08:27something really clever like I maybe
0:08:29you're not sandwiches just for absolute
0:08:32immorality and like it's just it's so
0:08:34rare as a character that that
0:08:35unmotivated buy anything particular
0:08:38except the desire to cause chaos active
0:08:40their own well it's great
0:08:42yeah she refers to Clara to as you know
0:08:43the puppy in the relationship which is
0:08:45which is actually something i think i
0:08:47have done before on podcast just talking
0:08:50about the doctor and how he looks at
0:08:52humans whether he wants to admit it or
0:08:53not that you know that he doesn't see
0:08:55humans is quite on the same level of him
0:08:57much as he tries and Missy just of
0:09:00course is the kind of person who will
0:09:01flat out state that
0:09:02right although i'm not i'm never
0:09:04convinced whether that's species humans
0:09:06that way or he sees everybody that way
0:09:07it's right breaking his own kind is that
0:09:09way too i met so as much I agree I i
0:09:12like the idea that we don't have this
0:09:14big story in the beginning that comes
0:09:15around in the end I think that was good
0:09:17i didn't need to see that climactic
0:09:19Davros Daleks whatever at the end of the
0:09:21season
0:09:22that said i am actually a little bit
0:09:24disappointed that we didn't get more
0:09:25michelle gomez because just great and
0:09:27she's really great but they're clearly
0:09:29paving the way for future episodes
0:09:31especially know that you just her making
0:09:34a deal with the Daleks and we never see
0:09:36actually what happens what the terms are
0:09:38and how they'll come back in the next
0:09:39year and you know what's gonna happen
0:09:40next series here in series after that
0:09:42sure and I mean she did get two episodes
0:09:45that's true but she's so great I mean I
0:09:47I i I'm not sure I felt give me more
0:09:50missy right away at the end of series 8
0:09:53but but at the end of this two-part I
0:09:55was like I don't really want to wait a
0:09:58whole series to get more of michelle
0:10:01gomez as Missy because she was a she was
0:10:03a lot of fun just that dear my dearest
0:10:05enemy business it's like how much she
0:10:07loves the doctor
0:10:08yeah you know I think that was good with
0:10:10the with the Saxon master also on black
0:10:14actor's name the wonderful Johnson
0:10:15Thank You Johnson was wonderful and just
0:10:18you know chudai mean live with a screen
0:10:19was bleeding when he was done it was
0:10:21just so shoot up but just you got that
0:10:23sense that they were in it together with
0:10:25the two of them they were boys together
0:10:26they grown up together they have this
0:10:28affection that was so terrible in their
0:10:32difference in how they approach the
0:10:33universe it would literally tear the
0:10:35universe apart and i thought the Missy
0:10:36what part was like a little slightly
0:10:38more general version of that she's like
0:10:40who would you know
0:10:41well who else would he trust for
0:10:42Christ's sake you know but also a little
0:10:44imbalance a little stuff i don't want to
0:10:46say stalkery but a little imbalanced
0:10:49where the doctors has a little bit more
0:10:51healthy connection to reality then then
0:10:53the master does and so and but I i like
0:10:56this because this is as with any James
0:10:57Bond villain you know after a while it
0:11:01did the conflict should be resolved and
0:11:04the why is it not resolved and the
0:11:06answer is you know in reality is because
0:11:08we want to keep seeing them in conflict
0:11:10but in the in the show I i think this is
0:11:12a very clever way of doing it which is
0:11:14that you
0:11:15all of them the master Missy they don't
0:11:17really want to kill the doctor they just
0:11:21want the doctor's attention they want to
0:11:23play with the doctor they want to be fun
0:11:26traps are flirting you know and i think
0:11:28that's an interesting take on it that is
0:11:30yeah that's a little bit meta but it's
0:11:32also I think fun to have that be the
0:11:35relationship began because of that use
0:11:37you do trust her I mean I you know when
0:11:39it was missing car running around the
0:11:41the basement of the Dalek City there and
0:11:44and like you know mr. was sort of saying
0:11:46we'll get the Dalek it's the perfect way
0:11:47to sort of break in and it's just a way
0:11:50of like tricking Claire to get into the
0:11:51Daleks so she can become you know her
0:11:53personal killing machine but we believed
0:11:55it because we we knew that missy is sort
0:11:58of working towards saving the doctor for
0:12:00some strange reason is because of
0:12:01michelle gomez that that it's such a
0:12:03believable performance and and I mean I
0:12:05love her as an agent of chaos which
0:12:08gonna have one then again and as a
0:12:11coyote trickster kind of character from
0:12:14from mythology minutes she's and and I I
0:12:17was not a fan last year I loved her in
0:12:19this I was going to throw out the
0:12:21Riddler to a little bit and where it's
0:12:23like you know just the Riddler really
0:12:25want to kill Batman a lot of times I
0:12:27think the Riddler just likes oh he's
0:12:29playing with my puzzles yay right now
0:12:31because it's fun to play with Batman and
0:12:34I get a little bit of that for Missy to
0:12:35he's the only one who answers them
0:12:37that's right that's right no one else
0:12:39will solve my dazzles Robin might I like
0:12:42a plausible equal to as opposed to the
0:12:44Emperor Palpatine like he gets a lot of
0:12:46paperwork out of that whole situation
0:12:48when I can determine that much else and
0:12:50missy is is the case delight and what
0:12:53she's doing and master he's doing that
0:12:55goes beyond that like destroying the
0:12:57universe it's like no peace having a
0:12:58good time she had a good time
0:13:00alright let's move on and talk about the
0:13:03toby White House two-part episode under
0:13:05the lake and before the flood this is
0:13:07the one you may remember with ghosts on
0:13:10Lukey goes on under underwater base and
0:13:14then one of the things that I thought
0:13:16was a clever structural thing is that
0:13:18you essentially get part two before you
0:13:20get part one where there in this flooded
0:13:23old area and then part 2 goes back in
0:13:26time to see how it got flooded
0:13:29I think maybe less cleverly than I had
0:13:31hoped it would get resolved but i still
0:13:33think it's structurally kind of funny
0:13:34yet to say what if we did a story where
0:13:37you see part two and then you see part 1
0:13:39and then you see the resolution because
0:13:41that's what the structure is here and
0:13:43you so you get to kind of different
0:13:45feeling episodes and it's a base under
0:13:48siege and a bunch of kind of classic
0:13:50Doctor Who stuff so what did everybody
0:13:51think of this 1i I quite liked it i love
0:13:53the the mood
0:13:55i loved how quickly the the setting and
0:13:58like the the setting up of the episode
0:14:00happened because when I when I you know
0:14:02it was revealed that there's gonna be a
0:14:03two-parter the base underseas I just
0:14:06would've expected a sort of a
0:14:07languishing part1 just sort of setting
0:14:09the mood and everything but we knew
0:14:11exactly what was happening before the
0:14:12opening credits rolled on that first
0:14:13episode and so the rest is just sort of
0:14:16left atmosphere and everything and I i
0:14:18love dumb i love many things i love the
0:14:21I love the the deaf person in charge i
0:14:24actually started off as a sort of a
0:14:27conceited the story but just she became
0:14:29a strong character on her own right
0:14:31I love the flashcards that the doctor
0:14:34has in order to try and appear you know
0:14:36human and sort of i have emotional
0:14:39compassion for people i quite enjoyed
0:14:42that and um and yeah it was it was it
0:14:46was really well directed I'm i think my
0:14:48favorite part was the very beginning of
0:14:50the second part where you know at time
0:14:53shows which is sort of try and disguise
0:14:55info dumps as a as a two-handed
0:14:58conversation this info dump is Peter
0:15:02Capaldi talking directly to camera
0:15:04talking about basically what the
0:15:06solution of the episode will be going
0:15:08with you know with with no protection
0:15:10whatsoever i was just bold and fantastic
0:15:13loved that although in those other call
0:15:15for to the fact that he's talking to
0:15:17Clara in his head in the end a
0:15:19heaven-sent is I mean because that's the
0:15:23same sort of scenario can be what could
0:15:25be i mean i think it's that it's
0:15:26presented that same light and I'm like
0:15:28it's him being clever in his head he
0:15:30already knows what he's saying but he's
0:15:32saying it to ask the audience to his you
0:15:35know companion is not present as he
0:15:36speaks it right
0:15:37I never made that connection before but
0:15:39that that makes perfect sense at the
0:15:40time because I
0:15:42don't like it when characters break the
0:15:43fourth wall so at the time I was trying
0:15:46to fit that part together with the very
0:15:48last scene when Clara is actually on the
0:15:50TARDIS and I wanted it to stitch
0:15:53together perfectly
0:15:54so the doctor was actually explaining it
0:15:56to Clara however I've watched the
0:15:58episode i watched it like two three four
0:15:59times or something like that now and the
0:16:02the way that that the camera keeps
0:16:04moving and the way that the doctor keep
0:16:06speaking to the camera in different
0:16:08angles it absolutely cannot yes you are
0:16:10there talking to because he keeps
0:16:12changing direction and she's nowhere to
0:16:14be found except he asks her about
0:16:16Beethoven so it's a callback whether she
0:16:19understands and I guess exactly left to
0:16:20the imagination but i like it because it
0:16:22reminded me of of of uh listen which has
0:16:27the same kind of structure where the
0:16:29doctor is basically talking to the
0:16:30camera or is he
0:16:32but I don't know I kind of feel like
0:16:33that if there's ever anybody who's going
0:16:35to narrate his own internal monologue
0:16:37allowed as he wanders around it's the
0:16:40doctor and I just I love the bootstrap
0:16:43paradox thing I I like how it's done
0:16:47I like that he's got the guitar that he
0:16:48plays Beethoven's fifth on that kicks
0:16:50into the doctor who theme with the
0:16:52guitar going in the background
0:16:55yes yes like the guitar so much more
0:16:57than I thought when they first
0:16:58introduced with the guitar i thought
0:16:59what a gimmick and I I really adored as
0:17:02a unique and and your lively surprising
0:17:05element was great who knew that then
0:17:07Peter old the oldest actor to be cast as
0:17:10the doctor in ages
0:17:11Peter Capaldi would be at his best with
0:17:14an electric guitar some sonic sunglasses
0:17:16and hoodie who knew I like that i think
0:17:18the bats the whole scene also ties up
0:17:21with with heaven-sent yeah and that i
0:17:23think it all sort of takes place in his
0:17:25if you will Sherlockian mind Palace is
0:17:28actually has talked to himself you know
0:17:30that we are the again I mean Steven
0:17:34Moffat leaves no stone unturned in and I
0:17:36notice turn some people off but at least
0:17:38no stone unturned in me kind of like
0:17:40metatextual aspect of Doctor Who I when
0:17:43I was obsessed with Doctor Who in high
0:17:44school I read the the skull basically
0:17:48scholarly work doctor who the unfolding
0:17:49text which is a fascinating thing but it
0:17:51was like it really opened my mind to the
0:17:53idea of taking a silly TV show
0:17:56really seriously and and what I love
0:17:57that Steven Moffat is that he does that
0:17:59he he says why don't we do an episode
0:18:01about the questions we ask ourselves
0:18:04about what why what why doctor who does
0:18:06what it does and this is a great example
0:18:08of that where it's like he's talking to
0:18:10us we are his internal monologue we are
0:18:13his audience
0:18:13he says he literally says what am i
0:18:16without an audience
0:18:18this ain't right unless you can look so
0:18:20Cara so I mean anyway you could say that
0:18:23so that's winking and its fourth wall
0:18:25breaking and all that but i don't know i
0:18:27think it's more than that I think that
0:18:28it's it's this character it's not
0:18:31unreasonable to understand that this
0:18:33character is performing for at least an
0:18:35imagined audience if not a real
0:18:37television audience and and and and
0:18:39throughout the season we see that and
0:18:41and Peter Capaldi does well it'sit's i
0:18:43find it yeah it's a lot of fun and I
0:18:46mean throughout he's done a really good
0:18:47job as a showrunner dwelling on on what
0:18:51is story was story mean what is myth you
0:18:54know and and just sort of drawing all of
0:18:57these different things that with with
0:18:58each season with each different doctor
0:19:00he's written for and and this was sort
0:19:02of like the next step it's like okay now
0:19:05we're just we're gonna talk it's not
0:19:06just myth it's not just for retail I'm
0:19:09talking to you as an audience right you
0:19:12pointed out stories is so true you know
0:19:13back in the fifth doctor with the fifth
0:19:15doctor Cena we're all stories in the end
0:19:17and here it's it's it's really playing
0:19:19around with the fact that the doctor
0:19:21literally is a story is just you know
0:19:23giving up the pretense and now he's
0:19:24talking directly to us on any with Amy
0:19:26Pond the same that first the mat smith
0:19:29season season 5 steven moffat first
0:19:31season was all about fairy tales right
0:19:34and and that the doctor was a fairytale
0:19:36and here we have something sort of
0:19:37similar to that i like it i I you know I
0:19:40i enjoyed i think that is as modern as
0:19:42doctor who gets and I i get people
0:19:44saying that they wanted they they'd like
0:19:47to see something different you know we
0:19:48are in the Steven Moffat era now it is
0:19:50closer to the end than just the
0:19:51beginning and there will be a change in
0:19:55in leadership that leads to a show
0:19:58runner who does something different but
0:19:59I think we'll look back on this and say
0:20:01on this area and say why Steven Moffat
0:20:04pushed a lot of boundaries and made some
0:20:08bold decisions
0:20:0922 question as a lifelong doctor who fan
0:20:12to question how does the show work what
0:20:15what you know
0:20:16yeah what can we do that is not that is
0:20:18outside the rules of the show or
0:20:20comments on how the show works and and
0:20:24to have a talented intelligent schreiter
0:20:27and showrunner do that I think this is a
0:20:30very special kind of error from the show
0:20:32even though i would also probably agree
0:20:35that if the show was only ever this it
0:20:37would be too much but it's not only
0:20:39after this it's doctor who it will be
0:20:40something else again just as it was
0:20:42something else before and and being
0:20:44himself a lifelong fan too and saying
0:20:47both you know how do we make it
0:20:48interesting but also how do i tell
0:20:51stories in this show that's been around
0:20:53for 50 years that are different that
0:20:55have never been told in this way yeah
0:20:57exactly when he gets to settle the
0:20:58cannon to there's things that he's
0:21:00probably been thinking about for decades
0:21:01he's like okay this is kannan now that
0:21:03thing that I wanted to say it is and
0:21:05that's great headcanon is now can
0:21:07although very fun i think one of the
0:21:09things and this is skipping ahead a
0:21:11little bit and we will get back on the
0:21:12MSO track here is where i found great
0:21:15restraint in some ways with him a little
0:21:19like Howard's in the force awakens there
0:21:21are a lot of of details that are left to
0:21:25the to the audience's imagination
0:21:28I feel like Steven Moffat delights in in
0:21:32the loose threads
0:21:33yeah and while he likes to pick up
0:21:35threads that he bothered him when he was
0:21:37a fan
0:21:38he also delights in leaving loose
0:21:42threads behind for either his successors
0:21:45or just for the fans to drive themselves
0:21:47crazy about and and i love that because
0:21:50it would be so easy to tie everything up
0:21:53with a bow and I do appreciate the fact
0:21:56that Steven Moffat does not want to do
0:21:57that he wants to leave messy bits for
0:22:00the audience to get frustrated about
0:22:02I think he also wants to leave bits for
0:22:04you know the the alternate materials to
0:22:06fill in so books and Big Finish and I
0:22:09mean he's he's he because he kind of
0:22:11came from that world he is very first
0:22:13doctor who think was actually a short
0:22:15story I think he's cognizant of the fact
0:22:17that there are other professionals out
0:22:19there doing dr. great doctor who work in
0:22:21other room
0:22:22homes and now I think he likes the idea
0:22:24that he has given them an extra little
0:22:26bit of a playground let's let's move on
0:22:29talk about the oh and one last thing
0:22:32about episode 74 just tiny t-shirt is it
0:22:34deals with story the fact i thought it
0:22:36was a very clever idea i've seen it used
0:22:38before in other contexts including Snow
0:22:40Crash really been no Stephenson is uh
0:22:42this idea of rewriting the brains
0:22:44firmware and that idea that i'm just
0:22:47looking at some characters on a wall and
0:22:49only did we actually saw it it rewrote
0:22:51their firmware so that they would have
0:22:52this kind of weird electromagnetic echo
0:22:54after they died I was like that was
0:22:57ingenious and interesting it 3i didn't
0:23:00love that episode pair that much i love
0:23:01the look more than the the plot there's
0:23:04some great bits in it but that got me
0:23:05for something I was very a very clever
0:23:07bit but that was not exploited too much
0:23:11was just sort of in the air as an
0:23:13interesting idea that your your brain is
0:23:15hacked by just the act of seeing the
0:23:17characters on the side of the wall
0:23:19inside the thing is realistic a little
0:23:21linguistic programming spooky let me
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0:25:10incomparable ok the girl who died the
0:25:12woman who lived this is a paired set of
0:25:15episodes as opposed to a two-parter
0:25:17proper I think Jay Madison and Steven
0:25:20Moffat with a girl who died Catherine
0:25:22regret Organa wrote the woman who lived
0:25:24we meet a shoulder she is a young uh
0:25:27young woman in this village and in the
0:25:33girl who died there are aliens who are
0:25:36not me i don't know taking the
0:25:39testosterone of the Warriors of the
0:25:41village i guess and rent their Vikings
0:25:44it certs is still in my calculator
0:25:47precious bodily fluids let's put it that
0:25:49way
0:25:49yeah and so we get we get all of the in
0:25:52that part 1 we get we get all of that
0:25:54the doctor also uh or is reminded why he
0:25:58chose his face which is an interesting
0:26:01little bit you talk about Steven Moffat
0:26:02kind of answering questions while
0:26:04bringing up other questions and then in
0:26:06the part 2
0:26:08it's it's uh I like more than a thousand
0:26:11years later and shielder who is saved by
0:26:13the doctor at the end of the first
0:26:14episode and made sort of accidentally
0:26:16immortal he runs into her again by
0:26:21accident or r by plan and we discovered
0:26:23that after a thousand years she sort of
0:26:25can't remember things because she's got
0:26:26a human-sized memory but but she but she
0:26:30and she calls herself me because I guess
0:26:32that's she's the only thing that matters
0:26:34didn't even need a name and we learn
0:26:36more about her in that so this is the
0:26:38paired parent episodes that when i
0:26:40watched them i thought we're not going
0:26:42to lead to some more appearances by
0:26:44maisie williams from Game of Thrones not
0:26:46accurate she actually is in the last two
0:26:48episodes
0:26:48as it turns out and watching his back i
0:26:51was i was a scanning through a bunch of
0:26:53these episodes today before we did this
0:26:55I am impressed by the fact that the
0:26:58mystery of this season was made
0:27:01perfectly clear at the end of episode 5
0:27:04where the doctor says I've made her a
0:27:08and he gets this look on his face and he
0:27:11says she's a hybrid and and from the
0:27:14perspective of the end of the season you
0:27:16realize that's the moment where he
0:27:17realizes that he what he's just done is
0:27:20created a legendary figure in
0:27:22Gallifreyan history he realized he
0:27:24totally gets it at that moment but
0:27:26that's what he's done but I'm till
0:27:28you've seen the whole season and gone
0:27:30circle back around again you don't
0:27:32realize that i never really so now think
0:27:34about it so she actually the hybrid did
0:27:36cause what was said but she what didn't
0:27:39cause it to happen right it's like it's
0:27:41like Crouching in the in the wreckage of
0:27:42Gallifrey she's there at the end of the
0:27:44yeah but she also sets in the sequence
0:27:46of events because the kind words are
0:27:47afraid of the hybrid it's that circular
0:27:49I want to give Moffat credit for being
0:27:50called back lever that she because he is
0:27:52but I mean some of the stuff i know you
0:27:54read into much of his head canon but she
0:27:56sets into motion by being there the
0:27:58Californians have the production and
0:28:00then she an axe or does the thing that
0:28:02gets the doctor to go into the
0:28:04punishment is so then what's up with the
0:28:05doctor deciding to destroy history to
0:28:07recover Clara and there she's in the
0:28:09ruins so it's very neat i don't think
0:28:11the Marlins actually not that neat
0:28:12because it's only one because because
0:28:15the other so that's the other part of
0:28:17the prophecy was that did you know
0:28:19ruined Gallifrey like destroyed the
0:28:21billion hearts to heal its own another
0:28:25doctor
0:28:25wow that's not better ever so it's it's
0:28:28still it's still very much left
0:28:30headcanon which I love I like that it's
0:28:32very open-ended listen didn't I anything
0:28:34up in and we don't know who the hybrid
0:28:35is ultimately but it is funny that in
0:28:37this moment first she's created by the
0:28:39doctors compassion realizing who he is
0:28:41and what what he stands for and that's
0:28:43why he does this
0:28:45but but there is that great moment upon
0:28:47reflection and and it's it's a it's a
0:28:50perfect thing because it is structured
0:28:51for people who have seen the whole
0:28:53season and are watching it again to go
0:28:55oh look at that where he very clearly is
0:28:58like she's a hybrid and you could
0:29:02see it in his eyes that he he has
0:29:04figured out who she is or as an inkling
0:29:07of who she is and that's all really
0:29:09interesting and then that becomes a
0:29:10threat in this whole season which is the
0:29:12doctor does a good deed because that's
0:29:14who he is and he saves people and that's
0:29:17why he chose the face of Achilles who
0:29:19david tennant's doctor saved in Pompeii
0:29:21but it has ramifications because in this
0:29:24case he's like with Captain Jack
0:29:26Harkness who is who is named checked at
0:29:28a later time because she now can't die
0:29:31and therefore is an anomaly in the
0:29:34universe and they also mention that
0:29:35hybrid business in the first dalla
0:29:38two-parter and that's right them that's
0:29:40the hybrid that that the Time Lords
0:29:42think is the legend that a half Dalek
0:29:45half Time Lord hyper exactly exceeded
0:29:47yeah I I thought it was interesting too
0:29:50that the throwaway bit that was
0:29:51confusing is in the in the woman who
0:29:54lived they make another immortal and
0:29:56that's it and we don't see him again
0:29:58well no because they didn't they didn't
0:30:00say that he was necessarily more like
0:30:02you said it may have burned out the chip
0:30:04in order to actually bring him back so
0:30:05who knows i'm making that up he said
0:30:07maybe right
0:30:08also also there's the fact that she's
0:30:10not i mean not exactly indestructible
0:30:13she wondered if she doesn't get harmed
0:30:15exactly reason she live so long is
0:30:17because she's awesome and that every guy
0:30:19didn't seem quite so awesome so i
0:30:20wouldn't be surprised if you just got
0:30:22his head lopped off accidentally and
0:30:23some point could grow a new one but his
0:30:25head is immortal but his body is that we
0:30:28carry out a convenient that's a text
0:30:30file so you get the face but that's the
0:30:32Christmas episode
0:30:34any other thoughts about I mean about
0:30:35this is interesting setup of the sort of
0:30:38paired like these are the I shielder
0:30:40stories about about the I mean the first
0:30:44the first story is a fairy it feels like
0:30:46a very kind of like standard Doctor Who
0:30:48story there are Vikings and you know and
0:30:52and aliens it's actually my least
0:30:54favorite of the whole sounds I think my
0:30:56favorite my favorite parts of this
0:30:58two-parter were just the the
0:30:59heart-to-heart character bits between
0:31:01the doctor and a shoulder / me
0:31:04yeah and it's when they sort of you know
0:31:05when the brand it brought in that weird
0:31:07lion and everything else that sort of
0:31:09what else
0:31:09it kinda kinda distracted from anyway
0:31:12and Stephen space this space but what's
0:31:14the episode Tom Baker series with the
0:31:16the navigator all I know I was really
0:31:18hoping is gonna be a thorough from
0:31:20warriors game was not every i love that
0:31:22pair those at me I whatever the rep so
0:31:24there any spans love the hell yeah
0:31:26they're totally different space lion's
0:31:28mane anyw Spacelines yeah it's a credit
0:31:31credit amazing williams who I think if
0:31:33you actually time don't how much screen
0:31:35time she had in her four episodes of
0:31:37Doctor Who she might have had more than
0:31:39the whole last season of Game of Thrones
0:31:41oh yeah but I mean she gives four
0:31:44distinct performances of the shoulder in
0:31:46four episodes because she's aged so many
0:31:48times in between and this is a girl who
0:31:50turned 18 during the course of making my
0:31:53series you know like she is a talented
0:31:55young actress
0:31:57yeah it was great to watch him yeah I
0:31:59had that I that's a moment same thought
0:32:01of like because I had a moment during
0:32:03this season where I thought I think I
0:32:05think I'm use maisie williams as as the
0:32:07next companion i did have that moment
0:32:09and I thought well no cuz she's on Game
0:32:12of Thrones and I thought how much work
0:32:14does she do for Game of Thrones really
0:32:15oh right i mean she's in like 15 minutes
0:32:18of Game of Thrones every year
0:32:20she's in very little of it because
0:32:21that's how game of thrones works so you
0:32:24know she yeah she i'm pretty sure she
0:32:26has more screen time and Doctor Who than
0:32:28in Game of Thrones this year how
0:32:29underrated one last little thing that I
0:32:31like which is that the idea of placing
0:32:33you mentioned that she has a human mind
0:32:35so she actually does not have it you
0:32:37know in eternal memory she has a limited
0:32:39memory and she says volumes and I mean
0:32:41it's sort of a gag and she's got you
0:32:43know a library full of volumes of her
0:32:44diary there's no way in any given period
0:32:47of time she can review that enough to
0:32:49reclaim the memory that she lost so
0:32:50there is that a bit there but i think
0:32:53the idea of a boring immortality
0:32:55there's a in the the night of the doctor
0:32:58you know he encounters that the sisters
0:33:00on Khan and karna and they say he's like
0:33:04oh yes the sister it was at the sisters
0:33:06of infinite boredom I've forgotten the
0:33:07sea but he's contemptuous of immortality
0:33:11even as he has this very long life and
0:33:14is now lived as long as the universe
0:33:15possible he threw all his master nations
0:33:17but I just like that idea that the
0:33:19immortality comes in different flavors
0:33:20you've got
0:33:21the captain jack harkness flavor you got
0:33:23the shoulder flavor the doctor is flavor
0:33:25of the oh he left flavor and so forth
0:33:27and and another saying just watching
0:33:30this are thinking about it at least
0:33:32again after seeing the entire series
0:33:33another little through line is the fact
0:33:36that you have Clara's reaction to a
0:33:39shoulder you know saying you know she's
0:33:40just she's great you know I'll fight you
0:33:42for it and in the end
0:33:44Clara actually does get to have her as
0:33:45the companion like our shoulders is
0:33:48close companion ostensibly at the end of
0:33:50the entire series so yeah she didn't
0:33:51really have to fight the doctor for she
0:33:53just got her which by God I i want to
0:33:56see girl I want to hear that big
0:33:57finished like now it's AII like the
0:34:01because it when everybody heard that
0:34:03Maisie Williams in it and and that she's
0:34:05gonna play a huge part and then them as
0:34:07much as Peter Capaldi's been talking
0:34:09about Susan in interviews leading up to
0:34:11the series everyone thought that Maisie
0:34:15Williams going to play Susan in some way
0:34:16shape
0:34:17oh mom what I love what I love the
0:34:21Ronnie what I love is at the end we know
0:34:24yeah what I love it at the end win-win
0:34:26klar runs off fleas Gallifrey in a
0:34:29TARDIS and takes with her companion it's
0:34:32Susan who was of course the companion of
0:34:34the doctor when he took a TARDIS fleeing
0:34:35Gallifrey I just love the the parallels
0:34:38in that in that in that the fact you
0:34:41know the outlandish fan theory was
0:34:44actually sort of born true in the end I
0:34:46i wanted to mention something here which
0:34:49is and I've heard a lot of people say
0:34:51the Clara has a shoulder as her
0:34:52companion here but shields lived
0:34:54millions of years that'll yeah i'm not
0:34:57quite sure I feel like they're both one
0:34:59another's companion at that point they
0:35:00both have different things to offer each
0:35:03other at that point neither of them is
0:35:05really Time Lords they're just they're
0:35:07very interesting characters in their
0:35:09little tartness together it's not quite
0:35:11the parallel but well I mean they're
0:35:12both they're both immortal
0:35:14yes yes shield they're all right another
0:35:16son of mortality has live longer but my
0:35:19car is the one who has actually been
0:35:21taking dr. lessons
0:35:22yes that's yours and she's the one who
0:35:24knows how to pilot the TARDIS so I still
0:35:26I still see it in that way i don't know
0:35:28shoulder might have taken dr. lessons at
0:35:29one point her Billy matters of existence
0:35:31whenever the doctor wasn't happy with
0:35:33her
0:35:33she's sitting there in the in the
0:35:35armchair waiting for someone to show up
0:35:37yeah the ruins of Gallifrey reading the
0:35:38manuals that's what I do that that could
0:35:39be that could pick so let's talk about
0:35:41the episode 78 because we've only gotten
0:35:43to that point the the Zygons this is
0:35:46interesting because it's a directs a
0:35:48direct follow on from the 50th
0:35:51anniversary special which I was
0:35:52surprised by and uh you know if we got
0:35:55you we got unit i think i would argue
0:35:57that unit is poorly run as questionable
0:36:01budgets that appropriate given the
0:36:03history of unit two guys place seventies
0:36:06they hey let's end our leader to america
0:36:10by herself in order to discover things
0:36:13you know I don't think you get for what
0:36:16gets used particularly well I'm not sure
0:36:18what they if they know what to do with
0:36:19unit but why did like about this is we
0:36:22have we get some more Osgood who is an
0:36:23interesting character and is made way
0:36:25more interesting and less of a just a
0:36:27fan proxy in this she's got a real
0:36:30backbone since we discovered that what
0:36:33that there were a pair of us goods igon
0:36:35human and one of them got killed by
0:36:37missy but the other one didnt so that's
0:36:39an interesting twist and we get some uh
0:36:43some really interesting stuff with
0:36:45without with Clara as at whose were
0:36:48doing some stuff on her own and and then
0:36:51ultimately it culminates in a scene in
0:36:56the black archive back where we were in
0:36:58the 50th where Peter Capaldi gives a a
0:37:01speech about a war and about people
0:37:04making easy decisions to go to war and
0:37:07not thinking about the consequences that
0:37:09is performance wise one of I think the
0:37:12highlights of the season even though you
0:37:14know you could argue that it's wrapped
0:37:15in an episode that does that can't live
0:37:17up to what he does in that 10 minute
0:37:20span so you know what that's my that's
0:37:22my take on it is i think these episodes
0:37:24are kind of a mess but there's a bunch
0:37:26of little bits in it that were very good
0:37:28and that Capaldi speech is for the ages
0:37:30it's just a fantastic little bit i think
0:37:32one of the big themes that over arch
0:37:35this whole series is that the idea of
0:37:37consequences and repercussions almost
0:37:39every single one of these these two
0:37:41partners has something in there you know
0:37:43whether it's meeting dad process a child
0:37:45or you didn't
0:37:47turning me into a hybrid or in this case
0:37:50i love the idea that we are finally
0:37:52seeing the fallout of what happened with
0:37:54the Zygons invading I mean they actually
0:37:56got to stay that's the kind of thing
0:37:58that you almost never saw especially in
0:38:00classic who you got a little bit more in
0:38:02early knew who but you know the doctor
0:38:05can't just run away from everything
0:38:07anymore and now we're getting to see
0:38:09what happens after after the fallout
0:38:12sort of appears and the idea that there
0:38:14are Zygons living among us on earth you
0:38:17know just hiding is is super awesome
0:38:19well I suppose the Cylons would probably
0:38:21be pretty ticked off about it from when
0:38:23they come back and find out find out
0:38:25that I got into their how many different
0:38:27people are frozen and ice underneath the
0:38:29sea locked in a time log in and turns
0:38:33out that almost point at this point in
0:38:36Doctor Who timelines there are no actual
0:38:39humans like they're aliens in the sky
0:38:41yeah i think this is a sci-fi novel
0:38:44about that is never a short story about
0:38:46everyone on earth actually being a
0:38:47duplicated personally only if there's
0:38:50not all do it there's a classic science
0:38:52fiction story about how time traveler
0:38:54goes back to the crucifixion of Jesus
0:38:56and discovers that everybody there is a
0:38:57time traveler
0:38:59yeah I know Jason and I talked about
0:39:02episode 74 when the flash cast and I
0:39:04remember saying like you know there's a
0:39:06lot of creates things in this but the
0:39:07payoff a better be good because there's
0:39:09just so many loose ends and you know I
0:39:11feel like the payoff was was pretty good
0:39:13i don't think that episode 7 I lived up
0:39:17as much but I thought a lot of stuff was
0:39:18reckoned in 27 from eight and i quite
0:39:21like the pair much more than I thought
0:39:23especially because the hole is good
0:39:25thing where is she's not even being coy
0:39:27she's like we're both osgood and then
0:39:29the ending where there's another Osgood
0:39:31you're like the potential for redemption
0:39:33is a theme of Doctor Who and most people
0:39:35never take it most aliens he's like look
0:39:38I could save your whole people they got
0:39:39mad and then he has to distract them all
0:39:42or they destroyed themselves when I was
0:39:44David Tennant's move right I'm will give
0:39:45you this one warning well i'm not gonna
0:39:47take it okay well then you're all dead
0:39:48yeah exactly what's gonna happen to
0:39:50destroy everybody because that's so I do
0:39:52sometimes actually the generalization so
0:39:54I mean people like Star Wars fans like
0:39:56to make a gentle fun i suppose of the
0:39:58star wars proclivity to have like every
0:40:00Planet has it
0:40:00on one single ecosystem where we live on
0:40:03a planet that has hundreds of different
0:40:05ecosystems you different climates and
0:40:07things but no no other planets it's
0:40:09either just eyes are just desert or just
0:40:11trees but you can argue that doctor who
0:40:14and sci-fi in general does a very bad
0:40:18job in terms of taking an alien race and
0:40:21and and being so reductive about them
0:40:23and saying well they are evil or there
0:40:25they are you know this is what the
0:40:26aliens do land and one of the things
0:40:29that I think maybe he's even a little
0:40:31underappreciated about the design icon
0:40:32to partner is designed guns this classic
0:40:35Doctor Who enemy from the Loch Ness
0:40:38monster back in the seventies these
0:40:41episodes are all about a split in these
0:40:44igon community on earth essentially this
0:40:48immigrant is icon community and there
0:40:50are radicalized icons who think that
0:40:53it's read only right that they not be
0:40:54high hiding and then there are the ones
0:40:57who just want to live their lives and of
0:40:59course the parallel is probably to
0:41:01something like Syria where there is a
0:41:04refugee crisis and there are people who
0:41:07just want to live their lives and yes
0:41:08there are also radicalized terrorists
0:41:11among them and this the challenge of not
0:41:13generalizing an entire group to be one
0:41:17thing and I like that about this episode
0:41:20i really like that these icons are not a
0:41:23monolith they don't this race doesn't
0:41:26believe one thing that they have a
0:41:28schism they're individuals they take
0:41:31different sides of an issue we meet the
0:41:33Zygons who just want to stay looking
0:41:36like humans and living their lives
0:41:37because they're basically refugees and
0:41:39doctor refers to them as people alltime
0:41:42family room for children
0:41:44yes I also like the fact that they
0:41:46actually claim the redemption was
0:41:47important because that ending is so
0:41:50powerful because what Bonnie the fact
0:41:53that she uh when she figures it out all
0:41:57all when she says both boxes are empty
0:42:00just like the buttons don't do anything
0:42:02and then she achieves that moment is
0:42:04like a satori moment like I
0:42:06Zen thing of now that person's chief the
0:42:09new level of enlightenment and she's
0:42:10allowed to demonstrate it in that final
0:42:12scene weather now to Oscar to get
0:42:13wonderful yeah what I what I loved about
0:42:16about capacities speech there is that I
0:42:19think you know matt smith what I think
0:42:21made a good speech in one early episode
0:42:23and the writers I think henceforth sort
0:42:27of always wrote big giant speeches from
0:42:28because they realize he you know he was
0:42:30good at them and then it just became a
0:42:32thing to fill time and I got tired of
0:42:35him to be honest the weather brings back
0:42:36attend there's a boat or speeches too
0:42:38many but this but this one capacities
0:42:41actually speaking to someone and it's
0:42:44literally like 10 minutes of just him
0:42:46but because he's talking to someone
0:42:48specifically it just feels like you know
0:42:51you're you're locked in and I've ever
0:42:52you know I i have I hold this two-parter
0:42:55in high esteem because it's when Eric
0:42:57and I went to the UK for the first time
0:42:59and then washed in the UK and part 2
0:43:02especially we watched it you know with a
0:43:04family around the TV as as all British
0:43:08families have to have done for
0:43:10generations now and to watch Doctor Who
0:43:12on a Saturday night and then have this
0:43:14episode be the one that we get to watch
0:43:16I thought ah boy this is just lucked out
0:43:18it was it was brilliant my luck to you
0:43:21watched in the original Klingon as it
0:43:22was intended to be seen
0:43:24yes in Powell I actually watched the
0:43:26power 25 frames you get that you get
0:43:29those a second Dreamz the yawns it's
0:43:32very different
0:43:32yeah it is alright anything more about
0:43:35this is about the minis icons or should
0:43:38we let bygones be anywhere episode 19
0:43:40for some reason was no episode 9i don't
0:43:43understand this is a big black spot in
0:43:45the season and then no no
0:43:46so that's all right so sleep no more is
0:43:48next is we were now entering our non
0:43:50two-parter little pair here sleeping
0:43:53morbark geddes controversial market is
0:43:56good buddy of Steven Moffat they do
0:43:58Sherlock together so it's unlikely that
0:44:01he's going to be kicked out of writing
0:44:04for doctor who has been writing since
0:44:05season 1 but people over there are a lot
0:44:09of people who are allowed and don't like
0:44:11his episodes i liked sort of half of
0:44:14this episode's maybe and not like the
0:44:16other half sleep no more the this is the
0:44:19story about the same
0:44:20and men who come to life on that space
0:44:23station around Neptune and it's all the
0:44:26found footage and there's no opening
0:44:28credits and it's very unlikely doctor
0:44:30who episode in that sense I you know I
0:44:33did I i do this episode with smiles on
0:44:37the TV podcast and it was funny because
0:44:39i think both of us liked some aspects of
0:44:43it and not others and it was sort of
0:44:45like we started the episode was like
0:44:46that was kind of fun yeah that was kind
0:44:48of fun let's spend 15 minutes detailing
0:44:50all the things that were wrong with it
0:44:51and I feel like it in hindsight that's
0:44:55about right because style-wise i really
0:44:58like the style of this episode i think
0:44:59is so big and dark and weird and and yet
0:45:03there are things in it that it's like no
0:45:05no what are you doing the the whole well
0:45:09we sort of slept and the sleep stays in
0:45:12your eyes if you don't sleep and then it
0:45:16becomes alien sand men that was slick
0:45:19though it doesn't make any sense what I
0:45:21like doing entire shape of it and
0:45:23nothing in it was like everything that's
0:45:25not was insane and the the you know even
0:45:28like the the weird hologram was just so
0:45:30everything was dark and creepy and tired
0:45:33and had a weird ending and all of that I
0:45:35liked and yet there's some of the
0:45:37details
0:45:38no no no now I it feels like I mean
0:45:41market has had the idea for us but for
0:45:45some reason monsters being made out of
0:45:48the ice not using the morning for years
0:45:51but he but he couldn't get the clearance
0:45:53from the song for mr Sandman so this
0:45:55idea just SAT percolating for that long
0:45:58and then he finally got the clearance
0:45:59and by that time doctor who had moved on
0:46:02so it's a very restful t-day vez kind of
0:46:05idea around it just feels and and you
0:46:07know I thought well atleast episode 10
0:46:09is going to be you know a single story
0:46:11too so won't feel that but then it
0:46:12episode 10 was essentially part 1 of the
0:46:153 partner to end the season which just
0:46:17led this one too just feel so out of
0:46:19place just like last year robot of
0:46:21Sherwood felt just nothing like a Peter
0:46:23Capaldi episode stuck in you know early
0:46:27early on in this first season and this
0:46:28would just look like it just I know just
0:46:31like to say okay mark you get to make
0:46:32your episode moment
0:46:33again we'll put it on the fridge right
0:46:35there when you're done everyone could be
0:46:36happy and that's just what it felt like
0:46:38an ear I liked I liked the atmosphere
0:46:40like being so true yeah I know I like
0:46:43the direction but i just got our mass
0:46:46this alone
0:46:47well I guess I love some of my favorite
0:46:49my favorite uh one of my favorite David
0:46:5110 episodes is the is the the impossible
0:46:55planet satan pit and it's for similar
0:46:57reasons which is it's dark and weird and
0:47:00spooky and creepy and like the
0:47:03atmosphere i just love the atmosphere of
0:47:06those episodes and Gabriel Wolf's boys
0:47:08you will die and i would live right i
0:47:11love that and sleeping more has that and
0:47:14it's like works on that level and that's
0:47:19it i think it was almost like greatest
0:47:21wants to wants to have his own little
0:47:23blink moment you know don't blink don't
0:47:25ever blink and they show shots of you
0:47:27know various statues around the world
0:47:29they're gonna get you if you if you keep
0:47:30looking at them and that speech at the
0:47:32end you know who you've got something at
0:47:34the corner of you I never thought no I
0:47:36don't come on i do not have a monster
0:47:39forming in the corner of my eye you know
0:47:41I it was we went to was a crazy November
0:47:45because we went to Long Island Doctor
0:47:48Who convention where we watched this
0:47:50episode live on on on the Saturday night
0:47:54they played it to the whole auditorium
0:47:55and then two weeks later we're jakarta's
0:47:58for the plate heaven-sent and the the
0:48:00immediate reaction both during and after
0:48:03the episodes could not have been more
0:48:05different
0:48:06yeah wewe a radio free scar had to do a
0:48:08live review of sleep no more own right
0:48:11after like literally i'd say about
0:48:14seventy percent of the people just sort
0:48:16of like you know walked out as if they
0:48:18had just seen their football team lose a
0:48:19game just like a walk back just look at
0:48:23them with the with the flash casts and
0:48:25also just like with ready for Scarlett
0:48:27Verity being committed to reviewing
0:48:29every episode you had that moment of
0:48:30like well what do we say various media I
0:48:35I again I don't think Sleep No More is a
0:48:37complete failure because of because it's
0:48:40saying style is good i mean the style is
0:48:43not not part of the episode that is part
0:48:45of the the episode
0:48:47and the style is great it's just you
0:48:49know again when you get into the
0:48:51analysis of it
0:48:52oh you know that's when it falls apart
0:48:54it's actually like it's better to be
0:48:56viewed and being like but once your or
0:48:59if you're in a crowd of fans right you
0:49:01start thinking about it and it's just it
0:49:03does not withstand scrutiny
0:49:04I just as I feel like it is felt like an
0:49:06early draft not a complete thing like
0:49:08they hadn't gone back and tighten it up
0:49:10any more consistent which they did so
0:49:12well I mean you know we'll talk about
0:49:13this at the end with this season was a
0:49:15phenomenal season and in this episode
0:49:17was not so it stood out more
0:49:20sometimes I wonder about the politics of
0:49:22it like interpersonal relationships of
0:49:25you know you're Steven Moffat likes
0:49:27Russell Russell Davis free road almost
0:49:29everybody i think except Steven Moffat
0:49:31Steven Moffat apparently doesn't really
0:49:33do that and sometimes I wonder that you
0:49:37get these scripts that could probably be
0:49:39made better if the if and whether it's
0:49:41over work or it's just difference you
0:49:44get a you get the scripts just go
0:49:47through with women with perhaps I don't
0:49:49know the inside story here but it would
0:49:51not surprise me if market history got a
0:49:53really light touch on it a little bit
0:49:56like kill the moon the previous season
0:49:57where I felt like it's interesting but
0:49:59it could probably there are some very
0:50:01simple things that would have probably
0:50:03made a stronger story but they didn't
0:50:04happen maybe that's out of out of
0:50:07deference to Peter harness i don't i
0:50:09don't know but uh yeah yeah i mean i-i
0:50:12think it's a I think this episode is
0:50:14kind of a mess
0:50:15even though i like a lot of things about
0:50:16it the other thing that I like the most
0:50:18about it was in the the representation
0:50:21in it i like the casting and this has
0:50:22nothing to do with Mark Davis unless he
0:50:24wrote the characters as at most of the
0:50:26characters as female which maybe he did
0:50:28but i love the idea that there's an
0:50:30asian woman who's in charge yeah and we
0:50:32have our first openly transactor playing
0:50:35the the grunt which some people did have
0:50:37trouble with but they did not know that
0:50:40she was trans at the time that they cast
0:50:42her in that role so I don't have a
0:50:43problem with it at all my trouble was
0:50:45the casual sexual harassment that the
0:50:47that person was engaged in against the
0:50:49other crewmember but that's another
0:50:51thing that's not related to their
0:50:52general Josie I loved that was my
0:50:54favorite part of the whole story because
0:50:56it was completely taking that that tired
0:50:59old trope
0:51:00where there's you know the guy in that
0:51:02position and flipping it on its head
0:51:04I think that sometimes those problematic
0:51:06things to me are less problematic
0:51:08because they are you know we need to
0:51:10break them down before we can get rid of
0:51:12them all together so I like turning
0:51:13things that turn things around and and I
0:51:15don't know that it was intentional in
0:51:17the script but probably in the overall
0:51:21planning for the season there is a
0:51:23thread of strong women through the whole
0:51:25season which is really interesting out i
0:51:28think i think that has to be intentional
0:51:30yes because Steven Moffat yes Steven
0:51:32Moffat may not be on Twitter anywhere he
0:51:34still pays attention to to sort of you
0:51:36know what fandom as a whole is is saying
0:51:38and I think that I think that he
0:51:40definitely sort of listens to the
0:51:42feminist backlash against some of the
0:51:44stuff that people had seen and really
0:51:46worked on that with with the casting and
0:51:48gosh look at the end of the season it's
0:51:50not there right yeah it's a also shout
0:51:53out to Neptune Neptune doesn't get a lot
0:51:55of love inside thigh here it is
0:51:57yep tune ya around Neptune okay that
0:52:00brings us to the either an angry person
0:52:04who was upset that i referred to heaven
0:52:06sent his part 1 of the two-part season
0:52:07finale like it's a three-part season
0:52:09finale and that's part like well I don't
0:52:12know
0:52:12utopia sort of leads into the finale and
0:52:16face the Raven sort of leads into the
0:52:18two-part finale quite the same but
0:52:20anyway face the Raven it seems like it's
0:52:22a standalone episode rapidly become
0:52:24something very different
0:52:26this is the episode now I managed to see
0:52:28where Erica's emotional progression is
0:52:29now because I've been listening to
0:52:31podcast which she is she is a because
0:52:33i'm a little behind on my very listing
0:52:35she's very emotionally compromised let's
0:52:38say to pull in some Star Trek references
0:52:39about that the death of Clara which
0:52:43happens to face the Raven and it does
0:52:45happen and face the Raven Clara dies and
0:52:47face the Raven we may find out more
0:52:49about her death in the inhale that which
0:52:52we do but uh spoilers but well we're all
0:52:55spoilers here but face the Raven so this
0:52:58is there's a street Trixie we find from
0:53:01from the delightful flatline from last
0:53:03year
0:53:04ritzy calls he's got a tattoo that is
0:53:06counting down which is a nice again a
0:53:08nice little creepy idea that's thrown in
0:53:10there there's a little street that was
0:53:12obviously available for
0:53:14the set of harry potter maybe I don't
0:53:16even know it's really an alley where
0:53:19aliens buzz it was and there's a bird
0:53:22and there's a chronolock and and
0:53:24shielder is there or me is there and in
0:53:29the end
0:53:30Clara is being very very clever in a
0:53:32napoleon III have to honestly say is
0:53:34exactly where I thought the doctor and
0:53:37rose were going in season two and then
0:53:41they didn't go there she just got
0:53:42accidentally sucked into a vortex to
0:53:44another parallel universe but here it is
0:53:48that like you're dangerous you'll become
0:53:49too much like the doctor and start to
0:53:51think like him but as the doctor says
0:53:53he's he's a less what does he say he
0:53:58said something like he's less fragile
0:53:59then she is well he knows what I mean
0:54:02you know there's that the underlying
0:54:04thing that he can't die MIT but the ante
0:54:06plot part but also that he knows when he
0:54:08dies sort of mean that gets rewritten
0:54:10and we get around around take more
0:54:12damage than she can but she's thing i
0:54:13like to hear it and and hurts her and it
0:54:16in the end it kills her in a in an
0:54:19episode that I found very affecting um I
0:54:23was shocked by it I I podcast with with
0:54:26chips others right after this was over
0:54:27and the first five minutes of it was
0:54:30literally me going cheap what did I just
0:54:31see what just happened because i had no
0:54:33idea that they were gonna kill Clara and
0:54:36I was shocked by it and and I felt like
0:54:37they did it right in that we spent time
0:54:40understanding the ramifications of Clara
0:54:43dying he didn't you know when you kill
0:54:45somebody but you're not really killing
0:54:46them you do it you gotta toss it off you
0:54:49don't invest the time and they invested
0:54:51the time to the point where as a
0:54:52educated television viewer like oh no
0:54:54they're taking their taking this
0:54:56seriously this must be real
0:54:58they were playing that game which I
0:55:00appreciated while it while it you know
0:55:03it shocked me and it upset me the
0:55:05problem i had with this episode I'm
0:55:07interested in what all you think the
0:55:08problem i had with this episode as I
0:55:10felt like the the the read the fine
0:55:13print trick that kills clara was not
0:55:18really set up I felt like it was kind of
0:55:22a cheat that the audience was being
0:55:24cheated in order to not out think Clara
0:55:26up
0:55:27about this and that bothered me that was
0:55:29like no no we didn't say that you
0:55:31couldn't transfer it and still not die
0:55:33her home and it's all kind of like a
0:55:35ripoff to me didn't change how affected
0:55:37i was by the ending but I did feel a
0:55:39little bit like they were trying to pull
0:55:40a fast one on me in the middle
0:55:42yes and yes yeah yep that's you read the
0:55:45fine print of your death contract you
0:55:47know the the begin the bits and pieces
0:55:50of it are very effective but yeah the
0:55:51key to that plot the key to that twist
0:55:55just did not i don't think they sold it
0:55:59enough like now it isn't didn't I think
0:56:01we're now so much time on her and trying
0:56:04to understand that and not enough time
0:56:06on trying to actually explain and set
0:56:08that up
0:56:09yeah you know I sort of like it just all
0:56:11of a sudden oh you gotta remind Davis
0:56:14this PV at the end the episode so I
0:56:16didn't get that the full weight of her
0:56:18dying i was sort of annoyed at that but
0:56:20I kind of got it retcon by episodes by
0:56:23yeah let me enjoy it better well but the
0:56:25other thing was the point that's got me
0:56:27but we'll get to 12 but I actually cry
0:56:29everytime i watch tell Ben only twice
0:56:31when she gets pissed off at him
0:56:33why would you do that why would you do
0:56:35that for spending all the time in the in
0:56:38the confession dial that got me you know
0:56:41i was dead and gone just like off she
0:56:43that just hit me in the heart in a way
0:56:46that this episode didn't unfortunately
0:56:47out to watch it again now that another
0:56:49speed about that plot point America how
0:56:51are you feeling now
0:56:52hey you know if it was any other
0:56:54character other than clara who died this
0:56:56way I would have punched the air and
0:56:58been thrilled because I i often i often
0:57:01complain about the fact that that that
0:57:03characters on Doctor Who like you know
0:57:05it's such a risky proposition to travel
0:57:07with the doctor I feel like a lot more
0:57:09characters ought to die and and I like
0:57:11it when a TV show is bold enough to just
0:57:14kill somebody off in a not big not
0:57:17schmaltzy sort of away like this is just
0:57:19boom she died
0:57:21however the fact that it is Clara my
0:57:23possibly favorite companion ever who I'd
0:57:25apparently developed more of an
0:57:27emotional attachment to the night even
0:57:29thought I had kind of had my hopes up
0:57:32that this would be the first new series
0:57:35companion who got to basically leave for
0:57:38an exciting and good reason why
0:57:40under her own agency we've been sort of
0:57:44written us into a corner at this point
0:57:45nobody can possibly want to leave the
0:57:48doctor because who would want to leave
0:57:50that kind of a life and that bugs me
0:57:52I like the idea that that characters
0:57:54could just go and that's one of the
0:57:55things i think was better in the old
0:57:57series even though sometimes it was
0:57:58really stupid but here we we have a sort
0:58:03of a great ending except that I wanted
0:58:06her to go on to be awesome and keep in
0:58:10mind this is before help help and has
0:58:11come along so I I knew that there was a
0:58:14good possibility that they were going to
0:58:16kill off Clara or make her leave before
0:58:18the series was over so about halfway
0:58:21through this episode I could suddenly
0:58:23see where I was going and it became the
0:58:25most awful experience of washing talker
0:58:27who I think I've ever had
0:58:28I was just tense and I knew where it was
0:58:31heading and yep that's where it ended up
0:58:33and I was just I was just shaking with
0:58:35rage I was so upset but you know I i
0:58:39always get mad at other people when they
0:58:41write a doctor who plot in their head
0:58:43and it doesn't come up on the screen and
0:58:44they get upset with the show Yeah Yeah
0:58:46right here you know here i have sort of
0:58:48unwittingly done that so i'm not i'm not
0:58:50actually mad at Steven Moffat for
0:58:52killing off killing off car I feel like
0:58:54it was a wise decision from a
0:58:56storytelling standpoint but emotionally
0:58:57I just it wasn't ready for it
0:58:59I i don't know that i will be ready to
0:59:01watch face the Raven again anytime soon
0:59:03maybe not ever
0:59:04I still haven't listened and listened to
0:59:05a whole bunch of Doctor Who podcast and
0:59:07i have not listened to a single one
0:59:09about face the Raven including Verity I
0:59:11beg absconded from that episode like I
0:59:13was just like nope we're not going to be
0:59:15honest I can't talk about it so I
0:59:16haven't listened to anybody talk about
0:59:18it sorry I didn't listen to you and chip
0:59:19Jason were created later on is awesome
0:59:23that's fine it doesn't know what did I
0:59:25just do it it's like love it it was such
0:59:29a should I went on this is the most
0:59:31unspoiled I've been a doctor who season
0:59:33ever and I i love that about it but I
0:59:37was shocked when I got to this moment I
0:59:39although so again some of this light is
0:59:41going said is the nuance that comes in
0:59:44an episode 12 where we get to see Clara
0:59:46again but I on one level it's like
0:59:50everybody dies right and and Clara at
0:59:54the end
0:59:54of hell-bent says to a shoulder
0:59:56essentially stop worrying about it
0:59:56essentially stop worrying about it
1:00:00all of us have an ending I know when
1:00:04mine is but I don't need to go there yet
1:00:06right i mean that is I think that's kind
1:00:08of beautiful in in a way to to have her
1:00:11her worldview be that but um but yeah it
1:00:14is i just i would've felt better about
1:00:16it if I hadn't felt like the scripted
1:00:18and cheat a little bit in order i felt
1:00:20like the script cheated to misdirect us
1:00:22but it wasn't playing fair
1:00:24and so when we got there I felt like I
1:00:26got cheated instead of not realizing
1:00:30with it wasn't just that I didn't
1:00:32realize what the rules were along with
1:00:33Clara because I'm Clara smart enough to
1:00:35as a character to not make that mistake
1:00:37i don't know i just felt like the
1:00:40execution wasn't there where where I
1:00:42wanted to feel like it was a fair you
1:00:45know a fair cop essentially we're like
1:00:47yep you got me right and I didn't feel
1:00:49that the enemies in the Raven that's
1:00:51what i wanted to just for Claire to be
1:00:52like oh yeah all right
1:00:55the reason I think it's it bothers us to
1:00:57is that and I'm speaking for everyone
1:00:59here you go on I'll shut me down is that
1:01:01the episode could have been devised
1:01:03slightly differently and we would have
1:01:04been satisfied it didn't have to have a
1:01:06broken mechanism because it was very
1:01:08clever before and after and it set up at
1:01:11the end the key that the key being
1:01:13sucked in his wrists to the teleport
1:01:16like all of the the ways to suck him
1:01:18into a mystery were great but they could
1:01:21have done the Clara misjudging something
1:01:24differently like being to taking more
1:01:26risk and knowing it and thinking she
1:01:28could have gotten out of it and they
1:01:29didn't give her that ability they made
1:01:32her do something where she didn't know
1:01:33it's like the Agatha Christie yes you
1:01:36can solve this mystery including things
1:01:38you never knew that's how you solve this
1:01:40mystery
1:01:40yeah I will somebody in the chatroom
1:01:45mtpa just talk about can't you just have
1:01:48the Companions choose to leave i think
1:01:49that's one of the challenges with the
1:01:51modern series by spending more count
1:01:52companions and making them seem like
1:01:53more reasonable characters you do often
1:01:57go down a path where the idea is this is
1:02:00such a wonderful life why would I ever
1:02:01give it up and so with the exception of
1:02:05Martha they have another whoo-hoo left
1:02:09because the doctor was a complete jerk
1:02:10to her
1:02:11yeah exactly exactly right is not an
1:02:13ideal
1:02:13holes parchur but at least it was
1:02:15different but the rest of them there has
1:02:17been something horrible but has happened
1:02:18because that's the only way you
1:02:20definitely leave the doctor and I get it
1:02:21from the sense of amping up like oh it's
1:02:23the time of my life why would I ever
1:02:24leave
1:02:25I think of sarah jane saying you know
1:02:27just just go you don't go with him
1:02:30this is a special part of your life and
1:02:31at some point it's going to end but i do
1:02:34think that it's difficult because you
1:02:37know you portray this is this amazing
1:02:39magical thing which it is but you know
1:02:40you're not going to have them the end
1:02:42none of the actors stay on the show
1:02:44longer than three years right so they
1:02:46have to leave at some point and you end
1:02:48up having to create these but you know
1:02:52difficult circumstances for them to
1:02:55depart because you've portrayed them as
1:02:57somebody who would never willingly
1:02:58choose to leave with the problem is the
1:03:00Clara actually got to that point last
1:03:03season where it makes sense for her to
1:03:05quit and she didn't so they got there
1:03:09and then it blew past it
1:03:10yeah it made sense for Amy and Rory too
1:03:12because they just sort of left at the
1:03:13end of the god complex and you could
1:03:15have been a natural and for them to ya
1:03:18but they always seem to have to go back
1:03:19for one more
1:03:20which I'm okay with look for McLaren I
1:03:21like the power of three I i like the
1:03:23idea of Amy and Rory kind of like being
1:03:25part time companions and that's fine but
1:03:27you know I would have been happy if they
1:03:29had said we're having another baby and
1:03:31we're going to retire from the
1:03:33time-travel doctor instead of it being
1:03:36well angels or even know baby like I I
1:03:40yeah I don't be a baby is another that's
1:03:41just another gimmick and I i love the
1:03:44idea is over to my children Erica people
1:03:48do have babies and settle down it is a
1:03:50thing that a lot of people do it seems
1:03:51like a good excuse our doctor pound sand
1:03:54look our last baby getting kind of
1:03:56messed up because you so not this one
1:03:58but see that's just it's an excuse i
1:04:00like the idea that people would just
1:04:02leave to choose to to to to do something
1:04:04else that they could still be traveling
1:04:07with a doctor in theory you know but
1:04:09they just decide not you and then just
1:04:11because somebody has chosen not to
1:04:13travel with a doctor i think i think a
1:04:15lot of times viewers and that the
1:04:17showrunners are thinking about it in
1:04:19that ok well if we have somebody who has
1:04:21chosen to leave then well you know what
1:04:23do we do the doctors gonna want to go
1:04:25back and visit him
1:04:26yeah but that can happen off-screen
1:04:27exactly to create months artificial New
1:04:30York boundary that the doctor can't get
1:04:32in for some reasons exact but just so we
1:04:34can't see them
1:04:35alright heaven-sent heaven-sent were
1:04:38into the two-parter now duh it's peter
1:04:40capaldi one-man show live on stage one
1:04:42night only
1:04:43well many men like this is so this is
1:04:47the doctor in his what we've discovered
1:04:49is the confession dial he is being
1:04:51essentially tortured and interrogated
1:04:55and it's just him and a figure in a
1:04:59cloak and at the very end of pep talk
1:05:01from his sort of head Clara and I and I
1:05:08don't know what I I you know I i loved
1:05:12it because it is just a full-on Peter
1:05:14Capaldi and I knew what was happening
1:05:17going to happen actually ok
1:05:20one of things is very clever about this
1:05:21episode is I felt like I knew what was
1:05:23going to happen from the beginning which
1:05:25is that it was a loop and he done it
1:05:26before and we get to the point where he
1:05:29realizes it's the loop is and he's done
1:05:30it before i go haha i figured it out and
1:05:33now we're at the end and then the
1:05:35episode goes on for another 15 minutes
1:05:37so that part was kind of genius where
1:05:39it's like and then he's going to dig a
1:05:42little bit further into the wall of
1:05:44harder than diamond and extend for that
1:05:48hundreds of thousands and millions and
1:05:50billions of years in order to get to the
1:05:52end which was just a mind-blowing kind
1:05:55of ending to an episode that I thought
1:05:57was just fantastic because it's um it's
1:05:59all Peter Capaldi and he's great and and
1:06:02as a gimmick episode goes and this is
1:06:05kind of a gimmick Episode what if we did
1:06:06an episode with just the doctor in it
1:06:08it's a I thought it was kind of
1:06:10fantastic one of what does everybody
1:06:11else think well I loved it i didn't even
1:06:14try to think about the puzzle I just
1:06:16enjoyed watching it in the moment and
1:06:19and i would have loved it going back to
1:06:21it and see it two and three times and
1:06:23four times and I don't usually watch
1:06:24these four times within like three days
1:06:27that's this burrowed into my brain like
1:06:30one of those bugs in Wrath of Khan
1:06:33and it wouldn't like oh it's just I felt
1:06:34like I was in a loop myself and i
1:06:36watched it and was just swearing and
1:06:39staggered and i watched it again and
1:06:41again i think i've watched it five times
1:06:43and I'm only forced will start you for
1:06:45watching it more and then I read the
1:06:47script when they posted the scripts and
1:06:49scripts have some of the the missing
1:06:51back story about why the words on the
1:06:53wall you know obviously change that
1:06:54drinks shooting or editing some things
1:06:57that didn't make entire sense actually
1:06:58suddenly make this feeling that last
1:07:00little gap of like a part of the puzzle
1:07:02was actually thought about but I don't
1:07:04know if this is my favorite doctor who
1:07:06but this is the one that most appeals to
1:07:08the way my brain works and i just had
1:07:10that same feeling of like watching at
1:07:12the fifth time I still got more out of
1:07:14it i think it's an incredible expression
1:07:16of trouble expression and i miss comes
1:07:19out in episode 12 but I'll say it here
1:07:21first is that i was delighted that it
1:07:23wasn't about romance so is delighted
1:07:25that was about
1:07:26yes doctors integrity and his feelings
1:07:29for her that were his feeling of of his
1:07:32duty of care as he puts it but that the
1:07:35plotline wasn't like I'm so I mean the
1:07:37Rose number ten on ten romance was real
1:07:40and good i like that and had its own
1:07:42integrity but this was about him being
1:07:45the manager is the thing that is right
1:07:46which is always so hard everyone else
1:07:47walks away everyone else runs away and
1:07:49he has that moment of crisis of
1:07:50confidence in which he the head cleric
1:07:52comes and talks to him and tell him to
1:07:55get off his ass and then he's like okay
1:07:56well I was 7,000 years let's try for
1:07:5812,000 on so delighted i think this
1:08:02well it'll still don't think didn't few
1:08:04years to come and it probably looked at
1:08:07probably one of if not the best talk to
1:08:09episode ever made everyone has been
1:08:11calling a one-man show i called a
1:08:12five-person show that being Peter
1:08:13Capaldi Steven Moffat Rachel talalay who
1:08:17directed it Murray Murray gold whose
1:08:19music I think has never been better and
1:08:21will always want who edited it including
1:08:23that three-and-a-half minute montage at
1:08:24the very end of his beautiful i
1:08:27mentioned the i mentioned that Chicago
1:08:30TARDIS screening that i watch out i had
1:08:32seen it i think twice that they like i
1:08:33was at risk as of overseeing this
1:08:36episode I Majesty it twice before they
1:08:37actually even show it on the saturday
1:08:40night at this convention and I thought
1:08:42I'll just sit in the back check Twitter
1:08:44and stuff is this thing that happens
1:08:45probably gonna be sick of it and like I
1:08:47think I cried two or three times during
1:08:50the course of that like at the end of
1:08:52that big montage when the doctor you
1:08:54know we finally get to the whole wall is
1:08:56this person I think that's one hell of a
1:08:58burden
1:08:58everybody just a plot a nicer oh and
1:09:01then when the you know the cameras Wells
1:09:03up and it's Gallifreyan there and I just
1:09:04a huge amount of applause I mean I
1:09:07remember seeing day the doctor in the
1:09:09theater and thinking that was a magical
1:09:11experience in this almost talk that it
1:09:13was just watching that episode with a
1:09:17crowd who just equally adored it and and
1:09:21wasn't watching Sleep No More just made
1:09:25it for a magic line and when we've been
1:09:28lucky because on bringing free scarves
1:09:310507 i think it is a five-member I'm my
1:09:34co-host Warren lives in Vancouver where
1:09:38Rachel talent lives and so we actually
1:09:40have sat down with her for about an hour
1:09:41and a half and and talked about her
1:09:43directing these two episodes and just
1:09:45hearing how it was made and the German
1:09:48Expressionism influences that went into
1:09:50this thing I mean it's a masterpiece
1:09:52I adored this this episode I i mean i
1:09:55was so emotionally fragile after seeing
1:09:57face the Raven I i had i had considered
1:10:00just not watching Doctor Who for a while
1:10:02because emotionally I just didn't think
1:10:04I was ready for it
1:10:05however I'm not a doctor who podcast so
1:10:07that would have been kind of to
1:10:08cultivate out so I was like all right I
1:10:09will just suck it up and i will see
1:10:11where it goes and and hopefully it
1:10:14doesn't you know kill me again and I
1:10:15think this was for me personally the
1:10:19most perfect type of episode to come
1:10:21after an experience like that because
1:10:23you know it's it's not really
1:10:26dwelling on Clara's deaths in a way that
1:10:29feels like it's you know that pouring
1:10:32salt on the wound it is it is it
1:10:34supposed to be about the doctor kind of
1:10:36dealing with Claire's death but in this
1:10:37story he never gets to because he's
1:10:40always just reliving the same point he
1:10:42is having to deal with you know in front
1:10:44of our eyes having to deal with the
1:10:46freshness of her death over and over and
1:10:48over again but i didn't have to do it
1:10:51that way like I actually got to watch
1:10:54this from an outsider's point of view so
1:10:55it gave me time to sort of bring
1:10:58and.and deal with her death emotionally
1:11:00even in a way that the doctor wasn't
1:11:02able to and it it was just it was so
1:11:05clean and pristine and just the the
1:11:09everything about it felt different
1:11:11enough from Doctor Who that I almost
1:11:13felt like I was sort of taking a little
1:11:15bit of a break from Doctor Who and I
1:11:17don't think this episode works with like
1:11:19a Stephen said I don't think this
1:11:20episode works with a different team
1:11:22I think you needed all of those pieces i
1:11:24almost never noticed the music and
1:11:26Doctor Who and yet I thought it was
1:11:28amazing here the first time the doctor
1:11:30sees the ancient picture of Clara we get
1:11:34Clara's theme played very lightly but
1:11:36with this weird effect on it that almost
1:11:38makes it sound kind of wobbly in
1:11:39backwards or underwater or something it
1:11:41was just they were there were so many
1:11:42little touches like that and and I think
1:11:45we've had some really wonderful actors
1:11:47play the doctor over the years but i do
1:11:50think that that Peter Capaldi is the
1:11:51only person who could pull this off in
1:11:54the way that it that it actually worked
1:11:56it was it was just so fantastic and I
1:11:58mean you know when I even did get little
1:12:00glimpses of Clara throughout the episode
1:12:01III didn't realize that actually was
1:12:04Clara standing there when you get their
1:12:05shots of her back
1:12:07I assumed it was a mannequin or standing
1:12:09but no this does really Jenna Coleman
1:12:11was a standard I thought it was
1:12:13obviously a standard and i found that
1:12:15Thun I was like I don't know what I
1:12:16don't know whether he was it actually
1:12:18hurt because I felt like ya la said this
1:12:21on radio and scar oh so true
1:12:23yeah dad made originally shot some shots
1:12:25with its stand and talalay just didn't
1:12:28like the look at the shot so they got
1:12:30Jenna Coleman to do it it's which is
1:12:31which is weird because it is her but it
1:12:33doesn't look like her which candidates
1:12:34ready for using a different blaster
1:12:36sometimes it's not so we're so cynical
1:12:38about TV production that we think we
1:12:40think I mean the way the episode is
1:12:42structured you are meant to think that
1:12:44of course she's not actually in it
1:12:46because she left the show writing and
1:12:48that is the beauty of it is because
1:12:51you'd show her right
1:12:52show her if it was her and so must not
1:12:55be here so when you see her you you have
1:12:58that oh she is here
1:13:00yeah at the right moment where before
1:13:02when she's just sort of facing the wall
1:13:04you don't have that kind of emotional
1:13:06attachment because it could be anybody
1:13:09you know it's a representation of Clara
1:13:11and
1:13:11until you see your face and hear our
1:13:13voice it's not that's what the moment
1:13:16with Clara appears and maybe an
1:13:17international it sits in serving the
1:13:20abstract is a representation of just
1:13:22companion
1:13:23yes he always has a companion and and
1:13:25yet if if she had shown her face any
1:13:28earlier it would have distracted from
1:13:29the rest of the episode even if she
1:13:31didn't say anything even if the the
1:13:33scenes were exactly the same otherwise
1:13:34just the assumption that it's not really
1:13:38her huh is what sets that apart if if
1:13:42you had seen her face that would spoil
1:13:43the effect i agree i think it's a nice
1:13:45nice think I you know I look at the I
1:13:49always thought that they were ridiculous
1:13:50but the audience appreciation figures
1:13:52for every episode that the BBC doesn't
1:13:54this guy a kind of a a a poor score
1:13:58I mean it's a good score but it's the
1:13:59worst of the whole season and I I think
1:14:02that's hilarious because everybody I've
1:14:04talked to who watch doctor who looks at
1:14:06this episode and says it's basically an
1:14:08instant classic this is going to be an
1:14:09episode we're going to be talking about
1:14:10for years to come as a classic Doctor
1:14:13Who episode so I don't know what the
1:14:16people on the way I polar thinking but
1:14:19it is i think i think it's a classic too
1:14:21i think you know I i think the the
1:14:23people who would have responded
1:14:24favorably were too busy crying at the
1:14:26room where the monsters are no monsters
1:14:28and that's just a veil there's a month
1:14:30stories here there is a monster it's
1:14:32strange but I i had a I felt like this
1:14:35actually solve the listen problem where
1:14:36we never understood who was writing on
1:14:38the chalkboard and listen and then it's
1:14:40like oh it is braces my it's like ah
1:14:42yeah I mean talk about the amazing
1:14:44things that are in this episode we get
1:14:46inside the doctors head like actually
1:14:48inside the doctors head and his little
1:14:50head TARDIS that he's got any speaking
1:14:51singers out and and you know he likes to
1:14:54have an audience as we mentioned earlier
1:14:56and all we get to see all of that to
1:14:58which is kind of amazing where he's
1:15:01talking to essentially he needs a
1:15:03companion he needs an audience and if he
1:15:05doesn't have a companion he will create
1:15:07a companion to talk to but he has to
1:15:08have one that's i love the heat that he
1:15:11just flat out says that you know that
1:15:12he's trying to show off it actually uses
1:15:15the phrase showing off and it and you're
1:15:17right that that's just what i was going
1:15:19to say is the idea that we're getting to
1:15:20see inside the doctors head is amazing
1:15:23and fascinating i mean back
1:15:24the days in the wilderness years when
1:15:26there was no Doctor Who on and there
1:15:28were all these these novels The Doctor
1:15:30Who new adventures one of the edicts
1:15:32about those books was that the writers
1:15:34were never allowed to write what the
1:15:36doctor was thinking you only were able
1:15:38to see we know the doctor from the
1:15:40outside that was the way it had to be so
1:15:42I think the idea that we're seeing
1:15:43inside the doctors had been getting some
1:15:45of his thoughts is even more
1:15:46revolutionary than it would be on any
1:15:49other show okay i want to point out the
1:15:52the dolly zoom only because the bit at
1:15:55the end with the doctors saying they're
1:15:57he says it in and that this is that when
1:16:00others he says a I now's the time I
1:16:03remember each for every time this is
1:16:04when I remember and they do that pull
1:16:07out where the zoom thing i just read
1:16:08this long article i think from Joe
1:16:10rosenstiel appointed people to it about
1:16:12the the history of the dollies and when
1:16:14you get that the background gets further
1:16:16away or closer together because they're
1:16:18pulling the zoom while they moved the
1:16:20dolly backwards and use it
1:16:22you're assuming in while you're pulling
1:16:23back jaws is a good example yeah yeah
1:16:26Goodfellas has a really slow one yeah
1:16:28and I was like exactly yeah and I was
1:16:30like oh ok that's that great shot and it
1:16:32was so perfect because that telescoping
1:16:34of time it worked
1:16:35yeah very effectively that the thing
1:16:38that we don't we don't go into the
1:16:39minutiae of the episode but the thing I
1:16:40kept going back to was that they
1:16:42constructed a puzzle with these things
1:16:44that didn't make sense but felt right
1:16:47that they didn't make sense usually just
1:16:48feel like flaws but like why is shovel
1:16:50into places
1:16:51Wendy Barry I didn't get the Octagon
1:16:53stone i cannot get through the Octagon
1:16:55stone was the thing buried in the thing
1:16:57that looks like a grave until they read
1:16:59the script and well I think that when I
1:17:01think I like second viewing I think I
1:17:02know that's what that is
1:17:04I just wasn't me this but it's clear
1:17:05when you see it but it's a but i think
1:17:07there are little bits and pieces of the
1:17:09fact that there's a some kind of looping
1:17:11problem with his clothing in the fire
1:17:12but that's okay because within the
1:17:15context makes sense it was easily be
1:17:17closed for the next for the next Doctor
1:17:20yes we don't know who prime that loop
1:17:21and he says all the rooms regenerate but
1:17:24i think it's okay that the rules are
1:17:25slightly you know talk to the numbers
1:17:27skulls doesn't exactly match as many as
1:17:29would be there and so first and the
1:17:31first time loop he just does the last
1:17:32half of the episode naked
1:17:33fortunately we didn't see that episode
1:17:35so I was thinking or in a robe
1:17:37where I hell-bent is the last episode
1:17:40soda in a classic you know Steven Moffat
1:17:42has this thing about like two partners
1:17:44but don't feel like two partners and
1:17:46this is that this is this is a doctor
1:17:48returns to Gallifrey and it's all kind
1:17:53of a scheme to save Clara by pulling her
1:17:55out of time but he also we also deal
1:17:58with this is in many ways a sequel to
1:18:00the end of time and a little bit the
1:18:0350th anniversary episode as well we get
1:18:05a new Rassilon who is who is exiled as
1:18:10well as the rest of the High Council
1:18:11because the whole question of like those
1:18:13awful people who did these awful things
1:18:15during the time low time war and how do
1:18:17you deal with them and the answer is
1:18:19that the doctor basically sends them
1:18:20away like it's not not bad and he tries
1:18:24to save Clara by extracting her out of
1:18:26time they the end and going down into
1:18:30the depths of Gallifrey in order to kind
1:18:33of avoid capture and they ultimately end
1:18:36up at the end of that the restaurant at
1:18:38the end of the universe with a shoulder
1:18:40and uh and uh in in a delightful
1:18:45surprise although maybe not surprising
1:18:48from mr. everybody lives
1:18:50Steven Moffat Clara and the shoulder
1:18:54steal a TARDIS from Gallifrey themselves
1:18:57essentially or Clara steals it with the
1:18:59doctor and then Clara and shoulder
1:19:01runoff in the with its broken chameleon
1:19:04circuit to have their own adventures in
1:19:06presently Big Finish audios to come and
1:19:10I'm and we get a happy ending other than
1:19:13the fact that if we get the reverse of
1:19:15what happened with Donna which is in
1:19:18this case the doctor huh that it tries
1:19:21to do a Donna kind of thing to Clara and
1:19:24she says no not allowed
1:19:26you're not going to do that and they do
1:19:28a kind of a packed on a 50-50 chance of
1:19:31having their memory wiped and so the
1:19:33doctor doesn't remember the details of
1:19:35Clara at the end and that sort of the
1:19:36little tragedy that is wrapped around
1:19:39this episode so you know the universe is
1:19:42never in peril by the way in this
1:19:44episode other than I guess if the doctor
1:19:45blew it up in order to save Clara but he
1:19:47would have blown it up and it doesn't
1:19:49feel as operatic and
1:19:51some ways is the other episodes that so
1:19:53many times that the universe has been
1:19:54blown i know it's all of reality is
1:19:56falling apart I was peeved that they
1:19:58didn't show it initially I was like well
1:19:59this seems like something missing and
1:20:00there's like no it's actually a former
1:20:02restraint that they don't need to show
1:20:04you something just as many about the
1:20:05characters it's that the ads about the
1:20:07characters it it took me a couple
1:20:09viewings to get over the fact that it
1:20:12wasn't heaven-sent because i was still
1:20:14basking in heaven yet when I saw this
1:20:16and I didn't realize that ok this is
1:20:18completely different than that that
1:20:20episode I need to give it full do and i
1:20:23loved it for what it was i I you know I
1:20:26like how crazy weird it is i love how
1:20:28capacity is basically silent for the
1:20:31first 15 20 minutes of the episode the
1:20:33counterpoint to heaven sent it is
1:20:35individually finally sort of just shows
1:20:37up and you know it says get off my
1:20:38planet and everything and now that you
1:20:41know I think there but he probably
1:20:44talked about most this episode already
1:20:46while talking about other episodes
1:20:48earlier in the season but I just love
1:20:50how you know everyone's giving sort of
1:20:54it an agency at this point out that even
1:20:56in retrospect everyone thought that the
1:20:58Donna Noble finale was was tragic
1:21:01analysis almost kind of aggravated
1:21:03because she was never given a choice and
1:21:05here Clara has a choice he takes control
1:21:07he takes agency with her life as his
1:21:10maisie williams as does um you know
1:21:13basically the whole thing from right out
1:21:15with run by superb female characters by
1:21:18the end even though it started out the
1:21:20story is male like the the general who
1:21:23regenerates back in time that you know
1:21:26we were talking about earlier about how
1:21:29Steven Moffat likes the leash loose
1:21:31threads and I think this is the biggest
1:21:33loose thread that he's leaving basically
1:21:35paving the way for a future show where
1:21:38because i don't think it's going to be
1:21:39cast another doctor during his time on
1:21:40the show to basically say everyone it is
1:21:43cool if we have a female doctor and if
1:21:46we if the next person who follows me
1:21:48doesn't have essentially created a
1:21:51female doctor and clara who will travel
1:21:54around the TARDIS on her own so you know
1:21:56it kind of both kind of paved the way
1:21:58and cushions the blow if there is no
1:22:01female doctor
1:22:02post Peter capacity and I think it's
1:22:05just a marvelous way to just a wrap all
1:22:07that up
1:22:07yeah aight aight i liked it in my head I
1:22:10still at especially the first time I
1:22:12watched it in my heart was was not quite
1:22:15over the the Clara thing and and I do
1:22:18appreciate the fact that she does get to
1:22:20go off and have more adventures and i
1:22:22love the fact that she has agency and
1:22:25gets to make the choice about you know
1:22:28not having the doctor just erase her
1:22:29memory without her being able to say no
1:22:31to that but we always joke on Verity
1:22:33linen and ever always saying that they
1:22:35may think maybe Steven Moffat has when
1:22:37he took over the show he made a
1:22:38checklist of all of the things that
1:22:40Russell T Davis did that he don't want
1:22:43to say he needed to fix them but maybe
1:22:45things that he thought were cool but was
1:22:47like I would do it differently this way
1:22:49because they're an awful lot of things
1:22:51that have we've had some similarities
1:22:53where he has had switched it up and
1:22:55changed it and this is definitely a big
1:22:57one
1:22:57a lot of people had real trouble with
1:23:00with Donna has you know but lack of
1:23:02consent at what was what was done to her
1:23:05and here we have a similar thing and I i
1:23:07love the way the episode is structured
1:23:09in that we don't know at the beginning
1:23:12what happened like we we think that it's
1:23:15Clara that has forgotten the doctor
1:23:17right and I I totally bought into that
1:23:18all the way until we get to the end and
1:23:20then we find out know what's actually
1:23:22the doctor that has forgotten about her
1:23:24and I love that he has he still has his
1:23:27memories of the things that they did
1:23:29together in the places that they went so
1:23:31it so it's not like he's missing a huge
1:23:33chunk of time it's just all of the
1:23:35pieces that are so emotionally resonant
1:23:38and all of the pieces that are really
1:23:40really related to her
1:23:42that's what's gone and i think that's
1:23:44that's just wow I got some really some
1:23:47real talk about that cuz i went through
1:23:48cancer treatment in 1998 and I had
1:23:51chemotherapy for six months and I I
1:23:54can't say that the writers and see them
1:23:56often anyone else talk to people with
1:23:58amnesia or gone through chemo but i have
1:24:01I couldn't tell you how much i identify
1:24:03with that I didn't lose my memory but
1:24:05after having chemo I missing pages and
1:24:08it's this feeling of I've described it
1:24:10almost exactly the way he did in that
1:24:12episode
1:24:12of your walking down the street you pull
1:24:14over and you know there was something
1:24:15there and there's a hole in the ground
1:24:17and you walk around it you feel it with
1:24:20your tongue like an empty socket where a
1:24:21tooth was and you can't for the life of
1:24:23you remember what that was and I've met
1:24:25people from before chemo and I remember
1:24:28a lot of people were a lot of things
1:24:29from my childhood but its pages torn out
1:24:31of the book and there's people i know
1:24:32from college who are sometimes upset
1:24:34that I don't remember them and I just
1:24:36don't have those memories are remember
1:24:37the memory of them and not themselves so
1:24:39I think they got that kind of residence
1:24:41and was very personal for me but but
1:24:44absolutely perfect
1:24:45yeah I i it's it's it's a soft tragedy
1:24:48it's a tragedy and yet he knows the lay
1:24:51this is the lesson we learned early in
1:24:53the season and set up with me right
1:24:55which is she has the books and so she
1:24:59knows that she's met Clara before but
1:25:01she doesn't remember meeting Claire
1:25:03before and that's what the doctors
1:25:04memories like now is he knows that these
1:25:07things happened but doesn't feel them
1:25:09anymore and it's a tragedy but as
1:25:11tragedies go you know there are worse
1:25:13ones to have and and it is a great
1:25:15reveal when Clara goes back in the in
1:25:17the back of the diner and it's the
1:25:20original tardis console and me is
1:25:22waiting for her and then they take off
1:25:23and leave the doctor behind with the
1:25:26TARDIS it's a I got some questions about
1:25:29the timeline of like he says that it did
1:25:32it he can't find it but he obviously
1:25:34seems to have just arrived because
1:25:35they've got his TARDIS and it's a I'm a
1:25:38little confused about some of the
1:25:39details but I don't care it's fine it is
1:25:41it's poetic and beautiful and it allows
1:25:43me to have headcanon involving Amy and
1:25:46Rory and river meeting that Smith inside
1:25:48a diner that is actually Clara's TARDIS
1:25:51yeah
1:25:52oh my god right I'm sure is
1:25:54intentionally beautiful right and and
1:25:57it's a wonder what a great way to end we
1:25:59get we get got kind of Gallifrey
1:26:00resolved in a way we get Clara and me as
1:26:04this alternate set of of doctors or
1:26:08doctor and companion we we get to see a
1:26:11TARDIS getting stolen from Gallifrey and
1:26:13having its chameleon circuit broken we
1:26:15get the beautiful redress Abby
1:26:18recreation of the original TARDIS with
1:26:22lots of details from William Hartnell
1:26:23and Patrick Troughton just this just so
1:26:27much it you know Steven Moffat shows in
1:26:30this episode i think that there is
1:26:33probably nobody on this earth who has
1:26:36spent more time thinking about doctor
1:26:38who said Stephen laughs that's ok and
1:26:41andrew davis dammit he's gonna use all
1:26:43of it we can also we can now have a
1:26:46Clara and a shoulder go off for me go
1:26:49off and meet up with the doctor's
1:26:50daughter where they can pick up all of
1:26:53the doctors and other doctors mother get
1:26:56the and maybe I can never I'm sorry my
1:27:02brain is preggers Ramona no come on home
1:27:05run out for Ramona stupid for a little
1:27:07bit on companion Ramona but if you like
1:27:10we have all these in the river song of
1:27:11course we have all these that time
1:27:13ladies and Missy they could all have a
1:27:15very interesting a trip together charges
1:27:17big enough
1:27:18yup locker room and yeah I I just again
1:27:21I I i liked the shape of this where it
1:27:24was on one level huge because it's the
1:27:27end of the universe and Gallifrey all of
1:27:29that and another another level
1:27:31I really appreciated how this this
1:27:33series ended with a quieter in a way and
1:27:37and more limited in scope and more about
1:27:40personal costs and people and and the
1:27:43doctors loss of Clara and trying to get
1:27:45her back and I like that I like that it
1:27:48was not not every I'm not every season
1:27:50needs to end with an existential threat
1:27:52to universe for God's sake
1:27:54yeah it was it was intimate if there
1:27:55were a bunch of explosions and flying
1:27:57Daleks and stuff it was intimate they're
1:27:59sitting in armchairs at the end he's not
1:28:01yeah I love that one of my favorite
1:28:02lines you know as he rises
1:28:04you're sitting inside and energy bubble
1:28:06me how you
1:28:08hi sustaining and she says brilliantly
1:28:10that's not the douglas adams line
1:28:13graphically yeah yeah I like that was
1:28:15started as a Western that there will be
1:28:17a so he tries alive it and is it looks
1:28:20like Doc Holliday or somebody's we start
1:28:22to put takes office nicer code you put
1:28:24someone that's more severe
1:28:25there's a there's a standard sheriff's
1:28:27care come sure is coming in our outlaw
1:28:29you know that kind of course I think the
1:28:32scene with him eating the soup and all
1:28:33those of townspeople in the dry lands
1:28:36just staring at them yeah I don't know
1:28:38where it came from it was fantastic
1:28:41it was aight i like how I'm you know
1:28:43they made the return of Gallifrey seem
1:28:45like a big thing but then it didn't
1:28:47become a big thing and I think had you
1:28:49had the sort of you know because they
1:28:51planted the seeds of finding the Yellow
1:28:52Freight at the end of the day of the
1:28:53doctor and he could have been like
1:28:56always huge epic we're gonna go back to
1:28:58the time when everything but no the only
1:29:00reason the doctor wanted to find
1:29:02Gallifrey again was basically so we
1:29:03could save Clara yeah and that was it
1:29:06and then you sort of left him hard to
1:29:07their own devices again which I quite
1:29:09likes we found it and then put it away
1:29:11again so we don't necessarily need to
1:29:12see it again right but it sits there to
1:29:15be dealt with but it's not and we didn't
1:29:16get into Time Lord politics all the
1:29:18boring stuff right that is not
1:29:20interesting about Gallifrey it's sort of
1:29:21like it's a Gallifrey is interesting
1:29:24because of what it means about the
1:29:26doctor and who you know what the in this
1:29:28case how they they say player and steal
1:29:30a TARDIS but it's not the details of
1:29:32Time Lord society beyond that I like the
1:29:34people we saw Gallifrey where the the
1:29:37poor people who live in the dryland yeah
1:29:39millions which is where he grew up out
1:29:42in that barn you know that's i love that
1:29:45that that that's what we see and also
1:29:47hit he has to drop his weapon and he has
1:29:49a spoon
1:29:50yeah that's possible robot of Sherwood
1:29:53call back you'll ever get
1:29:55I just like it's a place where people i
1:29:57mean i love the come up into Rassilon it
1:29:59that was just great and just the thing
1:30:01where there's nobody important either no
1:30:02witnesses like you noticed on the ship
1:30:05showing up and it just all felt
1:30:06legitimate i think it was interesting to
1:30:08recontextualize him as you know the
1:30:10former ward
1:30:11after that you can have this seems like
1:30:13he's a he's a war hero he its loyalty to
1:30:15loyalty to the war doctor is absolutely
1:30:18happening here and he saved the planet
1:30:20oh you can save them all he did in
1:30:21wrestling is cowering at the end of time
1:30:23yeah that's cool surprising 50th
1:30:27anniversary special residences that idea
1:30:30i did not expect to get the season
1:30:32alright uh before we before we wrap it
1:30:33up we should talk about at least a
1:30:35little bit there was a whole TV podcast
1:30:36about two husbands of River Song
1:30:38Erica you don't like River Song I i
1:30:43finalized I like to river song better
1:30:45the longer you know fit the longer we
1:30:48went on I didn't like her at the
1:30:49beginning a lector later but then we got
1:30:52here I I think rivers it's cool that
1:30:56there is a river character she just
1:30:59she's not she's not for me and I never I
1:31:03never liked the the sillier doctor who
1:31:06episodes almost ever so so the Christmas
1:31:09ones generally aren't up my alley either
1:31:12so I I in theory kind of enjoyed this
1:31:16like it was alright to watch I I i
1:31:19always think that Steven Moffat writes
1:31:21his it his couples as if they are in a
1:31:251940's ya squawkin man brightly but it
1:31:29which i love i love the you know the
1:31:32less screw of the screwball comedies
1:31:34from from back in those days and yet i
1:31:36don't really love it in Doctor Who so
1:31:38well I thought that this was way better
1:31:40chemistry between river in the doctor
1:31:42then i ever got from from matt smith or
1:31:44david tennant it just it was alright i
1:31:49love i loved it i I loved it it it it
1:31:52felt exactly the right level of silly
1:31:55and fun and I thought like a good use of
1:31:59river and a great interplay I I don't
1:32:01you know Alex Kingston Peter Capaldi the
1:32:04the age difference between Alex Kingston
1:32:06and matt smith was very interesting but
1:32:08Alex instant Peter probably i don't know
1:32:10if it's that they're closer in age I
1:32:13don't know if it's just Peter Capaldi
1:32:14and alex kingston have a connection but
1:32:16i just love them together and i love
1:32:18that she didn't that he had the upper
1:32:20hand on her because so much river song
1:32:22story is that she has the upper hand on
1:32:23him
1:32:24and.and I love that uh that moment where
1:32:29she realizes that it is him and amazing
1:32:32and he cares about right
1:32:33it's not just that that's him but it's
1:32:35it's that that he wouldn't be standing
1:32:37here next to me because he doesn't care
1:32:39the sunset is I'm going to love you back
1:32:41and it's like he wouldn't be
1:32:43oh right because it's so it's that
1:32:45simultaneous like this is him
1:32:47it's been him all along and he does care
1:32:49is that what he said your phone hello
1:32:52school me perfectly
1:32:53yeah yes that is the unhinged smile that
1:32:56I think is that i would say this is the
1:32:58through line from the doctor who cross
1:33:00all the doctors it is they don't do this
1:33:02but I think it's a through line is that
1:33:04the doctor can look completely unhinged
1:33:06and Tom Baker had him stay in and you
1:33:10can see p christopher eccleston there
1:33:12are times that he would just be saying
1:33:13something and his face would light up
1:33:15you like oh my that person is off the
1:33:18like practically off the rocker and i
1:33:20think peter capaldi has a really
1:33:22devilish smile that came out a few times
1:33:24this episode that just hit that right on
1:33:26the head
1:33:27I liked it but I mean anyway after the
1:33:31heaviness of series 9 they kind of
1:33:33needed and they do they needed sort of a
1:33:35lighter screwball kind of thing was
1:33:37going to go over at 515 as opposed to
1:33:39eight or 830 as most of Syria and went
1:33:42out but knowing all that and then
1:33:43honestly for the first time ever in my
1:33:46life I think Star Wars and doctor who
1:33:48actually intersected and competed for my
1:33:50infections and so I was I was so in star
1:33:54wars the force awakens bowed having seen
1:33:57I think twice maybe three times before
1:34:00Christmas I can remember now
1:34:01and so I was gonna like high so much
1:34:05talk to who now and so I kind of like
1:34:06kind of when I feel like I didn't give
1:34:08it its its its full attention
1:34:11the first time I saw something i watched
1:34:13three or four times and unlike the more
1:34:14each time but I you know Star Wars
1:34:17that's all star star wars on the
1:34:18Christmas this year for me I think it's
1:34:21I think timing really was against it in
1:34:23in two ways because I having seen star
1:34:25wars with Stephen every time and being
1:34:26so wrapped up in it I felt that same way
1:34:28about it but also I think the fact that
1:34:30the series ended so close to Christmas
1:34:33Joe didn't give us that same amount of
1:34:35breathing room that were used to have
1:34:37angry so I was still not only just in
1:34:40Star Wars mode but I was still kind of
1:34:41in that emotional place that series 9
1:34:44had left me and I didn't have enough
1:34:46time to chew it over and let it all
1:34:48digest quite right
1:34:49like I like you normally do so yeah SEI
1:34:53I spent an hour with you
1:34:55christmas night talking about how I ever
1:34:56loved it so i don't i don't have to go
1:34:59on and on that you know go listen to the
1:35:01TV episode III will say as much as I
1:35:04enjoyed star wars and I really did enjoy
1:35:05Star Wars I've only seen that once I've
1:35:08already seen this about three times just
1:35:10because so much fun it's fun and
1:35:12pointing at the end though I think a lot
1:35:14of people that I've yeah we talked about
1:35:16the last 15-20 minutes when they're in
1:35:17the restaurant and everything and having
1:35:19those conversations and that's when it
1:35:20really gets good
1:35:21oh yeah that that's the capper for it
1:35:23yeah I like I I mean we weave anybody
1:35:27who's been talking about Doctor Who for
1:35:28the last few years knows that the the
1:35:30Christmas special has a specific job to
1:35:32do need to be broad people are gonna
1:35:35watch that episode in in Britain that
1:35:37are not going to watch doctor who
1:35:38otherwise they're gonna watch that one
1:35:40so you want to be a rope you wanted to
1:35:42be fun you want to have action you want
1:35:44to not be too heavy and i think that i
1:35:47think it does all of those things
1:35:49delightfully well and then I think their
1:35:51payoffs for people who are who have been
1:35:53watching the show all along and and then
1:35:56it ends it there's wackiness and then it
1:35:58ends with something that's actually kind
1:36:00of touching and beautiful and and and so
1:36:03yeah it's all it's all good the only
1:36:04problem I have with it is that by
1:36:06decisively saying that she hasn't seen
1:36:09Peter Capaldi's doctor before it makes
1:36:12it very difficult for us to calculate
1:36:14out how to get more things even if its
1:36:17audio stories later with that with alex
1:36:21kingston and Peter Capaldi who are so
1:36:22great together but hey that's fine
1:36:24they got that they got the whatever it
1:36:26is they have 24 years 24 years of not
1:36:29have adventures
1:36:30also he said doesn't believe don't
1:36:32believe all myths basically so their
1:36:33stories about us and so she may be
1:36:36misstating precisely the timeline in its
1:36:39true the forest episode i also really is
1:36:42all the Christmas episode so we have
1:36:43giant crashing spaceships or flying
1:36:46sharks i guess or other options too but
1:36:47that well the flying shark episode all
1:36:50so had a crashing space oh my gosh
1:36:52exactly should we just never craft
1:36:54stated there was a murderous christmas
1:36:56tree episode but that had a giant
1:36:58spaceship that you didn't shot out of
1:37:00the sky your cotton this is better than
1:37:03I thought this is better than raccoon
1:37:05merry christmas everybody can get dr.
1:37:09the winner of the Wardrobe it wasn't a
1:37:10crushing spaceship is a crashing plane
1:37:12yeah they're really good with different
1:37:13so uh where were basically the end so i
1:37:17wanted i would ask the difficult
1:37:18questions now which is where do you
1:37:19place this season and in terms of
1:37:21success or failure and compared to
1:37:22previous seasons I'm kind of curious for
1:37:24a final kind of verdict on that front
1:37:27Stephen what do you wear what would you
1:37:28rank series 9 I think it's undoubtedly
1:37:33the best series since it came back for
1:37:35me it mile it might even be the best
1:37:38season of Top true ever huh
1:37:41because this is like 12 episode you
1:37:43think about is 26 episodes worth of in
1:37:47the old actually yeah 26 worth in the
1:37:48olden days i'm not too sure that the
1:37:51doctor who's ever had a solid
1:37:53front-to-back season in its history
1:37:55since maybe last year which i thought
1:37:57was equally as good to life the app I
1:37:59think we're in a golden age and i watch
1:38:01the show for over 30 years saying that
1:38:03so yeah well hi grace
1:38:05Erica what's your series 9 overall
1:38:07verdict yeah i'm right there with
1:38:09Stephen I mean you did despite the
1:38:11emotional issues I have with with the
1:38:12end of Clara I can still look I can
1:38:15still remove myself from the equation
1:38:16and and just look at it a little bit
1:38:18more objectively and I do think that it
1:38:20is for me easily easily the best so that
1:38:23we've had since the since i came back i
1:38:25love series 8 but I think for me it's
1:38:28it's it's a much easier called the thing
1:38:29that I like this one better i still
1:38:31think overall season 16 might be my
1:38:34favorite because I just love the key to
1:38:36time ya bits and pieces but if we're
1:38:39going like strictly quality i still have
1:38:42to say that this one is better because
1:38:44as much as I love series 16 season 16
1:38:47it's um it's a little janky in place
1:38:49it's open down yeah David verdict
1:38:52I'm with them uh
1:38:55I i think the Capaldi running in general
1:38:58has been more consistent than anything
1:39:02in the new series again front-to-back
1:39:04yeah and and this season i mean you know
1:39:08i had quibbles with things here and
1:39:10there but just for overall entertainment
1:39:15value and overall not wanting to nitpick
1:39:19them to death and and then just enjoying
1:39:23so many of the little tiny bits of
1:39:25episodes even the ones that weren't
1:39:27perfect it's just it's been really
1:39:30really good this year
1:39:32Glenn I gonna be boring and generally
1:39:36agree i think i watched about fifty
1:39:38percent of the of the original who
1:39:41series and i watched everything that's
1:39:43come out since the eccleston reboot and
1:39:47I love some episodes better and there's
1:39:50some parts of series and arcs better but
1:39:52i thought this was fantastic and I have
1:39:54my doubts during the season so that was
1:39:56good it was very solid it was it was a
1:39:58very consistent season and watchable and
1:40:01then the last three episodes destroyed
1:40:03because I mean I've never watched any
1:40:04episode as much as having been or
1:40:06haven't sent yet I don't think about
1:40:09five times and i'll probably watch it
1:40:10anymore so I feel like they did an
1:40:12excellent job overall and I I wonder the
1:40:16only thing I would say is i'm curious
1:40:18how people who are not doctor who fans
1:40:20coming into the season saw it
1:40:22there's no good way to know that but I
1:40:23thought for somebody like putting all of
1:40:26us who have back history with it
1:40:28I certainly appreciate it greatly for
1:40:31other reasons thanks even talking about
1:40:33them on his page
1:40:35well and and things that were that they
1:40:38were kind of questionable early on or
1:40:39that you went i don't know where this is
1:40:41going or I don't know if they're going
1:40:42to pick this up when they did close the
1:40:44circuit at the end it all tied together
1:40:46carefully and it wasn't it wasn't like
1:40:49the story arcs where it's like building
1:40:51to some giant big climactic you know
1:40:53university-wide conflagration and saving
1:40:56the University of have said this on
1:40:57other shows about other things i'm tired
1:41:00of everything is exploding and we have
1:41:02to save the universe this really did it
1:41:05it took this intimate story by the end
1:41:08and it was about the characters that we
1:41:10were worried about it had nothing to do
1:41:12with the whole universe of the whole
1:41:14planet or whatever Jason where do you
1:41:15place it thanks for asking
1:41:18I was just going to say so comedians I
1:41:20love but uh I I ok I'm going to be a
1:41:24little bit of a dissenter I think that
1:41:26series 8 was last year was better
1:41:28overall in terms of consistency and then
1:41:31had a disappointing ending whereas I
1:41:33think this season was although fairly
1:41:36consistent and good i think i felt not
1:41:40as delighted by it as i did last season
1:41:43but it had such a great ending I i
1:41:46really love the last two episodes and
1:41:49really the last three episodes I felt
1:41:51like this just as a seasoned it it
1:41:53wrapped up in a more appealing way so
1:41:57but you know if I had to score i would
1:41:59break
1:42:00Peter Capaldi's first year higher than
1:42:02this slightly but i think it's close and
1:42:04then the only other modern series that i
1:42:07would throw in there is this is the
1:42:09first david tennant series to that i
1:42:11have i have a great fondness for its
1:42:13hard
1:42:14we're at the point with modern Doctor
1:42:15Who where it's almost hard to call back
1:42:17that far because the show has changed
1:42:19and the way it looks old
1:42:22russell t davies Sarah doctor who is
1:42:24starting to feel like old doctor who in
1:42:26a way that it wasn't at the time but
1:42:29it's very different now than it was then
1:42:30so it's kind of hard to compare them but
1:42:32that has some of my favorite season
1:42:34series two of the new doctor who has
1:42:36some of my very favorite episodes in it
1:42:38so you're here Herr is there but which
1:42:41is not that good and the Indian flavor
1:42:43which not good but discipline themselves
1:42:44into more than good
1:42:46and yet the height i didn't i think that
1:42:48i was high Capaldi Capaldi with with the
1:42:51exception of heaven sent
1:42:55i would say the Capaldi era is
1:42:56interesting because I feel like it's way
1:42:58more consistent than doctor has been a
1:43:00long time but the heights don't for
1:43:04whatever reason don't feel quite as high
1:43:06with the exception of having set is that
1:43:09maybe because we don't have the lowest
1:43:10to compare them to it's possible it is
1:43:13possible
1:43:14they're taking their medication the
1:43:15season and the episodes all evened out
1:43:18yeah yeah yeah but I'm not gonna I'm not
1:43:20gonna complain about i think it's been a
1:43:21good season I think it's been very
1:43:22consistent
1:43:23like I said I think consistency in the
1:43:25Capaldi era even even the episodes that
1:43:28are kind of clunkers I can usually find
1:43:30something that I like about them like
1:43:31sleep no more which i think is very
1:43:33stylish even though i think it makes no
1:43:34sense or kill the moon last year which I
1:43:36really didn't like and yet I think about
1:43:39it and I think it's very interesting and
1:43:41I just think it failed but i think it's
1:43:43interesting in how it failed so that's
1:43:45not a bad thing to be at that level of
1:43:47consistency so that you know that's my
1:43:49that's my feeling about it but it's good
1:43:51I you know I see stories we this work
1:43:54we're back to where we started with this
1:43:55episode which is talking about Windows
1:43:57doctor who come back again and so we
1:43:59don't know is it
1:44:00are we not going to do doctor-who for a
1:44:02year or is there going to be a short run
1:44:04of episodes in the fall file followed by
1:44:05more episodes in the spring we just
1:44:07don't know
1:44:07and then we also don't know of course
1:44:09we're entering the third full series of
1:44:11a doctor in Peter capacity and that's
1:44:13frightening because generally that's the
1:44:16last series for a doctor is the third in
1:44:18the modern series that's been the kind
1:44:20of the rule
1:44:21David Tennant and matt smith both did
1:44:24three full seasons david tennant also
1:44:26did some specials so I because i have to
1:44:29say and this always happens but i gotta
1:44:32say i don't want him to go
1:44:33I want him I want Peter Capaldi to stick
1:44:36around for a little while because I feel
1:44:37like he has so much to offer the series
1:44:40and i would much rather i know it makes
1:44:42sense to change the showrunner have
1:44:44steven moffat finally kind of hang it up
1:44:45and change the doctor at the same time
1:44:47that's what happened with with Russell T
1:44:49davis at the same time I kind of don't
1:44:51want to see it happen i kinda wanna
1:44:53definitely go back into classic Doctor
1:44:55Who I kind of want that last Tom Baker
1:44:57season with Peter Capaldi where the show
1:44:59changes but the doctor at least is kind
1:45:02of the same for a year because i want
1:45:03more Peter Capaldi three years is not
1:45:05enough for me i hope i hope we don't
1:45:07have hope we're not two-thirds through
1:45:10his era because I'm not ready to say
1:45:12goodbye to pick ability he is great
1:45:14yes same here i will willingly take a
1:45:17year off from Doctor Who's it appears
1:45:19we're doing now in order to extend Peter
1:45:21Capaldi's air-crane Agnes disaster you
1:45:24know even if they cancel the show for
1:45:26five years and Peter Capaldi is still
1:45:27technically the current doctor even
1:45:30though he regenerates at the end of that
1:45:31last episode as long as we can have him
1:45:34is the current doctor even when he's not
1:45:36even on air I can take that as a win
1:45:39I feel like at this point that the
1:45:40Christmas special having been on every
1:45:42year since 2005 that even if they decide
1:45:46not to Doctor Who for a while they're
1:45:48still going to do an episode for your
1:45:49Christmas yeah how could they not at
1:45:52this point how could they not
1:45:53but yeah i agree with you completely
1:45:56let's keep your pelvic he's a treasure
1:45:59he's good he not only is he a fan and we
1:46:02know that he's a fan but he is you eat
1:46:04you could not I think perhaps because he
1:46:08is a fan to get an actor of his caliber
1:46:11yeah mhm I this chance is not going to
1:46:14come around again this is a very special
1:46:16moment let's keep this guy keep them i
1:46:19know i'm i remember hearing i mean the
1:46:21the Matt Smith era was you know hit and
1:46:24miss i think you in regards to scripting
1:46:26and I think it's mostly because they
1:46:27didn't really have an executive producer
1:46:30like to sort of keep the reins on things
1:46:33and they got a guy called Brian
1:46:34mentioned who's been in that position
1:46:35for the past two years and it's really
1:46:38sort of like firms everything up i
1:46:40remember hearing scuttlebutt in the in
1:46:43you know leading into Peter Cappelli
1:46:44that this season is gonna be much better
1:46:46because you know no offense to Matt
1:46:48Smith but he's just a young actor we
1:46:50can't treat Peter Capaldi the same way
1:46:54that we treated matt smith and so I I
1:46:57had an inkling early on that I think
1:46:58they were really like oh my god we got
1:47:00Peter Capaldi we have two impressive
1:47:01haha
1:47:03and so I think the quality Walker he has
1:47:05an Oscar everybody like brushes the
1:47:07crumbs off their shirts and sucks in
1:47:09their gut instincts yes sir
1:47:11really you know yeah he's not even that
1:47:14it's an Oscar for acting it's for
1:47:15directing he knows what he's doing he
1:47:18knows what is yelling no
1:47:20yeah well onward somewhere it is really
1:47:23i was there i was thinking about also
1:47:25how it disconcerting it is that the the
1:47:27Christmas special doesn't end with the
1:47:30doctor will return in the middle of this
1:47:32episode it's not even named well this
1:47:35has been a lot of fun i hope we can
1:47:36reconvene before too long to talk about
1:47:39the next season of doctor but who knows
1:47:41when that will be I would like to thank
1:47:43my guests for talking about
1:47:45this season though it's good that we got
1:47:46to talk about it now that has come and
1:47:48gone and now we're in the wilderness
1:47:49that many wilderness of between seasons
1:47:53of doctor who with not even knowing when
1:47:55it will be coming back and Laura thank
1:47:57you for being here thank you i'm just
1:47:59gonna like flip and come back to the
1:48:02restaurant in a few years
1:48:03sure sure it'll still be nighttime we'll
1:48:06we'll have dinner nights are long on
1:48:08this planet had to go and Fleischmann
1:48:10thank you for being here you you supply
1:48:12the the best of all the headcanon I
1:48:16apparently think about this maybe a
1:48:19little too much but you know as I look
1:48:20at the sky tonight by the positions of
1:48:22stars i think we've been on this podcast
1:48:23for over two billion years quite
1:48:26possible and i remember it all
1:48:28Erica and signed Thank You of course
1:48:30people can listen to you talk about
1:48:31Doctor Who every week more or less on
1:48:34Verity yes indeed yeah if if you're a
1:48:37doctor who fan out there and and
1:48:38jonesing for more doctor who stuff and
1:48:40then come and rewatch series 1 and
1:48:42season one with us this year I set and
1:48:45and lazy doctor who know and well i was
1:48:47going to say now sin and eric and
1:48:49Stephen together host lazy doctor who on
1:48:52the uncomfortable network where you
1:48:54totally took control and owned New
1:48:56Year's Eve life that was my shine that
1:49:01was that was beautiful
1:49:03that was a beautiful thing they're
1:49:05watching if you haven't listened to lazy
1:49:07doctor who Eric and Stephen are watching
1:49:09every episode of the original classic
1:49:11Doctor Who from the very beginning and
1:49:14and podcasting about whenever because
1:49:16it's casual like that that's why it's
1:49:17called please doctor who is writing the
1:49:20name people don't complain it's in the
1:49:22name Steven Japan ski you are one of the
1:49:25hosts of Radio Free Skaro everybody's
1:49:27the most like the most famous doctor who
1:49:30podcast i keep I keep thinking and so
1:49:33what I have to say to you is may the
1:49:34force be with you
1:49:36I with all this talk about Star Trek and
1:49:40Star Trek Star Wars day long and prosper
1:49:43this star wars and and series 9 has
1:49:46whetted my appetite has whetted my
1:49:47appetite and it saddens me that I have
1:49:50to wait the entire year until the next
1:49:52star wars movie and doctor who christmas
1:49:55special which will air within a week of
1:49:57each other in
1:49:57late December life in 2016 is not we'll
1:50:00get a new way to get a new star wars
1:50:02movie before we get a new episode of
1:50:03doctor who had will get a wash up and
1:50:06we'll get a new star wars holiday
1:50:07special about that i will not go to the
1:50:11second level with you go and Doctor Who
1:50:13life day special i would watch that in a
1:50:15heartbeat depending we may even get the
1:50:18new star trek series before a oh my god
1:50:21now that I think about it the lobby
1:50:22summer oh my well thanks everybody for
1:50:25listening just a reminder to Youkilis
1:50:26disparity and and listen to erykah and a
1:50:28an amazing cast of people talking about
1:50:30Doctor Who Radio Free Skaro Stephen and
1:50:33his two pals on that one is great when
1:50:35lazy doctor who of course and the TV
1:50:37podcast has all of our episode by
1:50:39episode things where it's me and various
1:50:41guests including only in all these
1:50:43people except Stephen who he's always
1:50:45already scarce exactly when I fight I
1:50:47talked enough about Doctor Who exactly
1:50:49so there's a lot of doctor who is what
1:50:50we're saying it there you want to listen
1:50:51to more pockets but doctor who but
1:50:52that's the end of this one so thanks to
1:50:54everyone out there for listening to this
1:50:56episode of income people will see you
1:50:58next time
1:51:10[Music]