The Talk Show

302: ‘Camera Beer Belly’, With Nilay Patel


00:00:00   I guess we should do the first segment on the M1 stuff,

00:00:02   get it out of the way and then blow the rest of our time

00:00:04   on the phones.

00:00:05   - Yeah, I think that sounds about right.

00:00:07   (laughing)

00:00:09   - So with the Verge, you guys got all three.

00:00:12   You took the Pro, Dieter took the MacBook Air

00:00:16   and Dan Seifert took the Mac Mini.

00:00:19   - Chris, Chris Welch took the Mac.

00:00:21   - Chris Welch took it, all right,

00:00:22   I knew I blew it on the third one, all right.

00:00:25   But you guys did get all three.

00:00:28   I had the MacBook Pro, I still have it.

00:00:30   I'm still amazed by it.

00:00:32   And I kind of feel like

00:00:37   this was a case where, did you see the review

00:00:42   that Patrick Morehead quote unquote review

00:00:45   that he put on Forbes,

00:00:46   it's like part of the Forbes Contributor Network.

00:00:48   It was like the last honest man's review of the M1.

00:00:52   (laughing)

00:00:53   - Yeah, I mean Pat and I have been talking

00:00:55   back and forth a little bit about it, yeah.

00:00:57   And I noticed that, he published it

00:01:00   and I think it took off in a way

00:01:02   that maybe even he wasn't expecting.

00:01:04   It got a lot of uptake.

00:01:06   - I think that's very true,

00:01:07   that he was not expecting the reaction it got.

00:01:09   - And he toned it down a bit in post.

00:01:14   (laughing)

00:01:17   There were quite a few references in the original version

00:01:20   to Apple chosen reviewers.

00:01:24   You know, let me give you my take on this

00:01:27   as opposed to the initial reviews

00:01:29   from Apple's chosen reviewers.

00:01:31   And you know, you don't have to,

00:01:33   and it was almost like he needed an editor

00:01:35   'cause he mentioned Apple chosen reviewers too many times.

00:01:39   But I did notice that in the uptake,

00:01:41   that was what caught on, right?

00:01:44   It was sort of like there are people,

00:01:46   and I don't blame them, right?

00:01:47   It's like cynicism and being jaded pays off

00:01:52   probably more now than ever in our media world.

00:01:56   And I think people thought, wait,

00:01:58   these initial reviews sound too good to be true.

00:02:01   And then Patrick Morehead's review comes out and says,

00:02:03   they're too good to be true.

00:02:04   Here's the truth.

00:02:05   And well then wait, why were all the reviewers so glowing?

00:02:10   And it's because Apple picked people who would either,

00:02:16   he never, you know, and it was definitely made

00:02:19   where he never insinuated why Apple's chosen reviewers

00:02:22   would write overwhelmingly positive reviews,

00:02:27   but it played into people's just gut level suspicion

00:02:31   that hey, something's wrong with these reviews

00:02:33   because they're saying things that don't add up.

00:02:35   - Yeah, I mean, this for me is,

00:02:39   as a former gadget blogger,

00:02:42   is about as full circle as it gets, right?

00:02:45   I would, when I was making $14 a post-it-in gadget,

00:02:49   why did Ed Big and Walt Mossberg get the iPhone?

00:02:53   It's 'cause Apple has made some,

00:02:55   and it's like now I know Walt

00:02:57   and I'm the guy who gets accused of, okay, well,

00:03:00   you know, like this is just, the circle of life continues.

00:03:04   But you know, I did, Pat and I talked,

00:03:06   we DMed a little bit.

00:03:07   I think he tweeted that, you know,

00:03:11   one thing that is really true about OS X or Mac OS,

00:03:16   they call it now,

00:03:17   that first day of a new Mac OS machine is shot for testing.

00:03:21   That system just wants to index.

00:03:24   It is, it comes into the world

00:03:26   and the first thing it wants to do is index itself

00:03:29   as hardcore as it can.

00:03:31   And so just for years,

00:03:33   and probably they've told you this too,

00:03:34   but I get a new Mac machine from Apple

00:03:38   and I'm like, my benchmarks are slow.

00:03:39   And they're like, has it been a full day yet?

00:03:41   I'm like, no.

00:03:42   And they're like, wait.

00:03:43   And like, then the next year a new one comes out

00:03:44   and I forget.

00:03:45   That played a pretty significant role

00:03:47   in the results he was getting.

00:03:49   And then the other, and I, you know,

00:03:51   this is every computer is different.

00:03:53   Everyone's workloads are different.

00:03:55   It is a processor transition.

00:03:57   There's a bunch of weird big sur stuff that's going on

00:04:01   with compatibility.

00:04:02   And then on top of that, and you know,

00:04:05   just I'll say it as directly as I can.

00:04:07   Like I don't use a bunch of Microsoft apps.

00:04:09   I don't use a bunch of weird enterprise collaboration tools.

00:04:13   The Vox Media is still a startup.

00:04:14   We run on Google apps and Zoom and we tested what we tested.

00:04:17   And I will, you know, Dieter and I are like motivated

00:04:20   to break the thing, right?

00:04:22   Like we want to push it to its limit and tell you

00:04:24   this is where we found the limit.

00:04:26   And we were sort of unable to do that

00:04:28   inside of our workflows.

00:04:29   I think if I worked at a fortune 500 company

00:04:34   that ran on weird old custom windows software,

00:04:38   I probably would have broken it in a different way.

00:04:39   So I did appreciate the shift in perspectives,

00:04:42   but in talking to Pat, I mean, he can speak for himself,

00:04:45   but I definitely got the sense that he was not expecting

00:04:48   the uptake that he got.

00:04:49   - No.

00:04:50   Well, I looked back at it and I know what you're talking

00:04:54   about that one day and for me, it's usually Spotlight

00:04:58   and the photos stuff.

00:05:01   'Cause I have all of my photos

00:05:02   in the iCloud photos library.

00:05:06   So I don't know, it's like up to 37,000 photos and videos.

00:05:09   And even when you run Migration Assistant,

00:05:12   there's some of the indexing of that stuff

00:05:14   doesn't come over by choice.

00:05:18   Spotlight doesn't come over, I guess.

00:05:20   I don't know why.

00:05:21   I think the photos stuff doesn't,

00:05:23   perhaps it's for some sort of privacy reason,

00:05:27   perhaps they've talked about that they don't store

00:05:30   some of the facial recognition stuff in the cloud,

00:05:35   or at least it's not supposedly in a way

00:05:38   that they can get it.

00:05:39   But anyway, photos D or whatever it's called,

00:05:42   something with a D runs in the background,

00:05:44   takes a lot of CPU.

00:05:45   I found it with this machine for the first time,

00:05:47   it never made it hot, never slowed it down

00:05:49   and I was still getting incredible benchmarks.

00:05:52   It was like, and I could see an activity monitor

00:05:55   that this stuff was happening that usually wrecks a machine

00:05:58   until it's not, you can look in activity monitor

00:06:02   and when you're not doing anything,

00:06:04   the machine's not doing anything, okay,

00:06:05   now's the time to start running benchmarks.

00:06:07   And I didn't even see that.

00:06:09   Again, am I accusing him of dishonesty?

00:06:12   It just doesn't add up to what I saw,

00:06:15   what other reviewers saw.

00:06:16   And I think where he really had to tone it down a little bit

00:06:21   was it didn't jibe with what just real people

00:06:23   who now are getting them are seeing.

00:06:26   - Yeah, I mean, before we published our reviews,

00:06:28   I texted Joanna and I was like,

00:06:30   "We're real close to giving the Air a 10.

00:06:33   "Are we way out over our skis here?"

00:06:34   And she was like, "Nah, I don't think so."

00:06:36   - That's remarkable.

00:06:37   You know, and we're not, again,

00:06:39   we're motivated to find the limits.

00:06:41   'Cause I think for me as a reviewer,

00:06:44   one thing that we do is we tell you if it's worth the money.

00:06:48   And one of the clearest ways to explain

00:06:50   whether or not something is worth the money is to say,

00:06:52   "Here's where your money will stop.

00:06:53   "Here's what you cannot do."

00:06:55   And with the Air, we could find the line.

00:06:59   Certainly we could see it throttle at certain moments,

00:07:01   but that line is so far above

00:07:05   where any other consumer laptop at that price point is,

00:07:07   it just made total sense to say, "This is great."

00:07:10   I think now that people have,

00:07:13   you can't hide from the truth, right?

00:07:14   Like people have the machines.

00:07:17   They're gonna run applications that aren't gonna work.

00:07:20   And Apple's claims are everything works.

00:07:22   So there is a little bit of daylight there

00:07:24   between what I think the most common experience is,

00:07:26   what Apple is saying,

00:07:27   and then what someone's absolutely bizarre edge case

00:07:31   is gonna be.

00:07:32   And the question is just how much daylight is there?

00:07:34   - Right.

00:07:34   - And it's like that was part of Morehead's review.

00:07:37   It was like he listed some of the apps he was running,

00:07:40   and I'd never even heard of them.

00:07:41   (laughs)

00:07:42   And it was like a bunch of Microsoft stuff.

00:07:44   But like some of the stuff he said too

00:07:46   just didn't add up to me.

00:07:47   Like I ran all of my benchmarks with Chrome

00:07:51   with the Intel-compiled version of Chrome

00:07:54   because I think that their first,

00:07:57   I don't even know if it was still a beta,

00:07:59   but they didn't have a native Apple Silicon version

00:08:02   until like the night before reviews came out

00:08:05   or something like that.

00:08:06   But I thought it was interesting.

00:08:07   I thought it was an interesting test of Rosetta.

00:08:09   It was like, well, you know, Chrome is super popular.

00:08:12   People use it for all sorts of things.

00:08:16   So it's a great, this is a great app to test.

00:08:19   And it ran great.

00:08:20   It, you know, it wasn't as fast as Safari,

00:08:23   but it was definitely as fast as Chrome is on Intel,

00:08:27   brand new from this year, Intel MacBook Pros.

00:08:32   - Yeah, it ran all my tests in Chrome.

00:08:34   - Yeah.

00:08:35   - It's, Chrome is what I use.

00:08:37   I think there's like an element of being a reviewer

00:08:39   where you can't just do what they tell you to do.

00:08:42   You're like, no, this is my laptop.

00:08:44   I'm gonna use it like my laptop.

00:08:46   And I might, you know, I run my workday in Chrome.

00:08:49   And so I was really motivated to push Chrome

00:08:52   because Chrome is a dog,

00:08:54   even on the fastest Macs that have Intel chips.

00:08:56   And here it was, I think a hair slower.

00:08:59   And then I think the M1 build

00:09:01   that they released, Apple Silicon build,

00:09:03   in a bizarre way.

00:09:04   - Yeah.

00:09:05   - Is definitely faster,

00:09:06   but it's definitely still slower than Safari.

00:09:09   - Yeah, and like Slack,

00:09:11   Slack came out with a beta that's Apple Silicon native.

00:09:15   And again, I guess perhaps that's, I don't even know.

00:09:17   I haven't followed that,

00:09:18   if that's what all of Electron is doing,

00:09:20   but the way that Electron is this native,

00:09:24   quote unquote native app framework

00:09:25   based on the Chromium engine.

00:09:28   And that Chrome for now is gonna ship Intel

00:09:32   and Apple Silicon versions,

00:09:34   as opposed to a universal download

00:09:37   that runs natively everywhere, I guess,

00:09:39   because it's so big and so much of it is compiled code

00:09:42   and they're worried about the footprint.

00:09:45   But I upgraded to Slack's native beta early,

00:09:49   and it was fine.

00:09:50   But I had been running the Slack Intel version

00:09:54   for days on the machine too, and it was fine.

00:09:56   And whatever, I have lots of complaints

00:09:58   about Slack as a Mac app, but it's not slow.

00:10:02   It's never really slow.

00:10:04   It's just bloated and uses weird UI conventions,

00:10:07   really weird UI conventions.

00:10:10   And it uses a lot of memory because it's based on Chrome.

00:10:14   And so the Moreheads review actually got me

00:10:18   to uninstall the native beta I'd been using,

00:10:20   go back to the Intel one, and I was like, no, this is fine.

00:10:24   This is, I don't know what you're talking about.

00:10:26   I mean, maybe your Slack is different.

00:10:27   I don't know, but the Slacks I'm on, this is amazing.

00:10:31   Basically, I feel like we've thought for years,

00:10:36   and there is, there still is.

00:10:38   It's not like the M1 defies physics,

00:10:40   but we know that there's a trade-off

00:10:41   between how fast a computer runs.

00:10:44   And you can just say computer.

00:10:46   You don't even have to get into CPU,

00:10:47   GPU, machine learning, et cetera.

00:10:50   Just the faster it runs, the more energy it uses.

00:10:53   The more energy it uses, the hotter it gets,

00:10:55   and you run into heat problems.

00:10:57   And so you can have cool computers, basically,

00:11:00   which is what we've accepted.

00:11:02   You can have cool computers that are too slow

00:11:04   for the sort of software people use on a daily basis,

00:11:08   or you can have fast computers that run hot

00:11:11   and have loud fans.

00:11:13   And the M1 is saying, well, actually,

00:11:16   you can have your cake and eat it too.

00:11:17   Here's a computer that is actually very fast,

00:11:19   and it single core competes

00:11:22   with world-class desktop workstations,

00:11:25   even though it's shipping in $699 Mac minis

00:11:30   and $999 MacBook Airs.

00:11:33   It literally competes head-to-head

00:11:34   on single core performance

00:11:36   with multi $10,000 workstations,

00:11:40   and it runs cool as a cucumber.

00:11:43   And that seems too good to be true.

00:11:47   It is a inflection point in the industry.

00:11:52   There is no other chip, and it's not about ARM

00:11:56   versus x86 instructions.

00:11:58   There are ARM laptops.

00:12:00   There are multiple AMD and Intel laptops,

00:12:04   but there is no other machines that that's true for.

00:12:07   - Yeah, I think that's true.

00:12:09   You know, I wonder, over time, we're gonna see.

00:12:13   This is one of those questions you're never gonna be able

00:12:15   to answer until you see the performance curve

00:12:17   of the chips over time.

00:12:20   But there was a huge process transition

00:12:22   that Apple just went under, right?

00:12:24   It was the big shift to five nanometer,

00:12:26   the first company to ship five nanometer at scale.

00:12:29   Intel is still sort of struggling its way to seven, right?

00:12:33   Like, those process transitions are where you get

00:12:38   the leap in energy efficiency.

00:12:40   And what we were always talking about

00:12:42   was when the MacBook Air went to the Haswell chips,

00:12:45   and the battery life just skyrocketed.

00:12:47   That's what this felt like to us.

00:12:48   The performance is great.

00:12:49   The battery life jump is more meaningful

00:12:53   for more people, I think.

00:12:54   And so the real question is whether they reaped

00:12:57   all those benefits at once because of the process transition

00:12:59   or they can keep scaling that over time.

00:13:02   Like, I don't know the answer,

00:13:04   but it's like one of the big outstanding questions

00:13:07   of what are the limits of what Apple made here

00:13:10   is do they just pick it up this time because of

00:13:12   an enormous and very difficult process transition

00:13:15   that is years ahead of Intel,

00:13:18   or is it baked into just sort of their architecture

00:13:21   versus something like Snapdragon?

00:13:24   - Well, and is there something to the fact of,

00:13:27   I think there is, I think it's human psychology,

00:13:30   that there is something to having the bar raised

00:13:34   that forces everybody to accept it

00:13:38   and elevate their games, right?

00:13:41   Like, you know, Steve Jobs famously described

00:13:45   the original iPhone as being five years ahead

00:13:47   of the competition, and that's such an abstract

00:13:50   Bezos Chardian thing, five years ahead of what, you know?

00:13:54   But in some sense it was true, you know?

00:13:58   In some sense you could say that it took about five years

00:14:01   for Android phones to sort of get into,

00:14:04   just be in the ballpark in certain regards,

00:14:08   but they did, right?

00:14:10   And that's not me saying that Android phones

00:14:12   within five years of the iPhone were equal to the iPhone,

00:14:15   but they were certainly closer than other phones were

00:14:19   in 2007, right?

00:14:21   In 2007 it was like the iPhone, you know, famously,

00:14:25   it made the people at RIM after the announcement

00:14:28   held a meeting the next day,

00:14:29   and their conclusion coming out of the meeting

00:14:31   of their executive leadership was that Apple had just lied

00:14:34   and made up, you know, said that the things they're saying

00:14:38   that this iPhone does can't be true,

00:14:40   and sort of spent six months until they could like buy one

00:14:44   and see it spinning their wheels on that disbelief, you know?

00:14:49   But then, you know, RIM obviously didn't catch up,

00:14:52   but the industry did, and I feel like this might,

00:14:54   you know, the result is that Apple's laptop chips

00:14:58   may not be so far ahead of the competition in a few years,

00:15:01   not because Apple doesn't have the headroom,

00:15:03   but because everybody's gonna have to catch up.

00:15:06   - Yeah, I think that's right.

00:15:07   I mean, when you talk about that phone,

00:15:09   I sat through, I cannot tell you how many ill-fated briefings

00:15:14   about why resistive touchscreens were superior

00:15:17   to capacitive touchscreens.

00:15:19   Like, it was just like horror, and I was like,

00:15:21   you know it sucks, but that's what they had.

00:15:24   That was like, that was the technology

00:15:25   that was available to them at scale.

00:15:27   Apple had their, you know, they were starting from zero

00:15:31   and going to a small base so they could spend

00:15:33   on superior technology that was harder to build,

00:15:37   whereas the big companies just didn't have access to it.

00:15:39   - It did wash out a lot faster.

00:15:41   I think one of the big stories with phones,

00:15:43   and you can see it actually with the M1,

00:15:45   the big story here is that phones are such a huge market

00:15:48   that they've commoditized all of these other little bits

00:15:51   and bobs that make a phone.

00:15:53   And so now you have an M1, which is just a, you know,

00:15:55   a supercharged phone chip that Apple has learned

00:15:58   to build at scale, even through a difficult

00:16:01   processor transition.

00:16:02   You can just see how that will, like TSMC knows

00:16:05   how to build five-millimeter chips at scale.

00:16:07   They make Apple's chips.

00:16:09   They're gonna sell that to all their other customers

00:16:10   over time, and that's gonna get commoditized.

00:16:13   And Apple will stay ahead of the curve

00:16:14   'cause that's the thing that they do,

00:16:15   but I think that that catch-up period is a lot shorter

00:16:18   than it used to be.

00:16:20   - I, see, and I don't think you're gonna disagree with me,

00:16:23   but I'm gonna object to one phrase you just used,

00:16:26   which is calling it a phone chip.

00:16:28   And I think I'm as guilty of that as anybody,

00:16:30   that we've all collectively believed that these are,

00:16:33   that what Apple's been making with the A14, A13, A12,

00:16:36   going back in time, are really, really good

00:16:39   and ever better phone chips,

00:16:41   because that's where they've been used.

00:16:44   And the iPad, if we really wanna just boil down

00:16:49   what could be a two-hour episode easily of itself,

00:16:52   what's wrong with the iPad is that it is still largely

00:16:55   just a big phone, you know?

00:16:58   And limited by iPad OS in many ways based on limitations

00:17:04   that make perfect sense for phones to preserve battery life

00:17:08   and extend availability and this, that, and the other thing

00:17:13   that maybe don't make sense for the way people want

00:17:16   to use iPads as personal tablet workstations.

00:17:21   And we've internalized that, and then it's like,

00:17:25   no, they're actually just good, they're just computers.

00:17:28   Like if you just sort of take a step back

00:17:29   and stop thinking them as phones, as tablets, and laptops,

00:17:33   and just think, well, they're all just computers

00:17:35   and they're instantiated in different form factors.

00:17:38   They're just great computer chips.

00:17:40   And it just so happens that they're making

00:17:43   and selling most of them.

00:17:44   And even by the standards of the iPhone 12 Pro Max,

00:17:49   little, little tiny pocket-sized Unix workstations

00:17:54   that you put in your, they're just great computer chips.

00:17:57   - So I agree with you, and I think if Dieter was here,

00:18:00   he would be like shaking his fists at you,

00:18:02   that he's been saying they're all just computers

00:18:04   for a decade, 'cause it's our expectations

00:18:07   of what they do that define their limitations.

00:18:10   I think what, again, this is prognosticating the roadmap

00:18:14   of these chips, we'll see how it goes.

00:18:17   Yeah, they are just all great computer chips,

00:18:21   but the constraints, the design, customer experience

00:18:24   constraints of a MacBook Air and an iPhone 12 Pro Max

00:18:29   are pretty similar, especially 'cause the phone

00:18:31   is almost as big as the laptop.

00:18:33   So you're still looking at battery life,

00:18:36   you're still looking at heat, you're still looking

00:18:37   at portability to whatever extent.

00:18:40   You take that chip out of that context,

00:18:42   where it has always sort of been designed for that context,

00:18:45   and Apple will even tell you, we think performance for a lot,

00:18:48   that's the metric, and we will never go beyond it,

00:18:51   we're never gonna break this ethos.

00:18:53   And then you say, okay, we actually have to make

00:18:55   a Mac Pro out of this.

00:18:56   And people are actually still gonna want external GPUs

00:19:00   on that computer, and so we have to spin up PCI Express

00:19:04   for this machine.

00:19:05   There's a bunch of stuff computers outside of this envelope

00:19:09   need to do that we've never seen this architecture do.

00:19:12   Whereas I think with the Air, and to some extent, the Pro,

00:19:16   actually the Pro's a really interesting one

00:19:17   we should talk about, but definitely for the Air,

00:19:20   the sort of design constraints are so similar

00:19:25   to what you want from an iPad, that the OS letting you

00:19:28   do more with it unlocks the chip in a very powerful way.

00:19:33   What you wanna do with a Mac Pro is totally different.

00:19:35   And I think even the MacBook Pro to me is by far

00:19:38   the odd man out of this entire lineup.

00:19:42   I know why the Mac Mini exists, it's because people love it,

00:19:45   and they can make one, and you can do all kinds

00:19:47   of stuff with it, why not put a fast chip in it?

00:19:50   You can see why there's no Intel MacBook Air available,

00:19:54   like why would you?

00:19:56   The Pro is like, if you need the power that a fan gives you

00:19:59   because you're rendering for a bit longer,

00:20:02   you definitely want more than two ports.

00:20:04   That's the one I'm like, why did they make that one?

00:20:08   - Yeah, and they've been making it ever since we were stuck

00:20:11   without a retina MacBook Air, right?

00:20:14   And famously, it was when they first introduced

00:20:18   the two port 13 inch modern Intel MacBook Pro,

00:20:23   at the end of the introduction, Phil Schiller even said,

00:20:27   by the way, some people have been waiting

00:20:30   for a retina MacBook Air.

00:20:33   Well, look at this 13 inch MacBook Pro,

00:20:36   it actually has a smaller footprint,

00:20:38   like stacked on top of it.

00:20:40   It's actually smaller by volume,

00:20:42   even though it's not wedge shaped,

00:20:44   and it's faster and it starts at $1,300.

00:20:48   And without saying, so this is the 13 inch MacBook Air,

00:20:54   which it wasn't, right?

00:20:55   They eventually did come out

00:20:56   with a retina 13 inch MacBook Air,

00:20:57   which is why he didn't say it.

00:20:59   But a lot of people read between the lines and thought,

00:21:01   oh, there's never going to be a retina MacBook Air,

00:21:04   you're supposed to buy this

00:21:05   and they're just calling it a MacBook Pro.

00:21:07   But it is one of the weirdest naming things

00:21:10   in Apple's lineup because there's clearly,

00:21:12   it sounds like a very subtle difference, right?

00:21:17   You say to somebody who doesn't really know the details,

00:21:20   well, some of the 13 inch MacBook Pros have two ports

00:21:23   and some which cost more and are a little,

00:21:26   they're faster and they have four ports.

00:21:28   And you think, oh, well, that's a natural way

00:21:31   for a 13 inch Pro laptop to span the mid to high end, right?

00:21:36   That some have two ports, some have four ports,

00:21:39   and then the four port ones are faster chips.

00:21:42   Okay, but it's like two different product lines.

00:21:45   It really, they should not have the same name.

00:21:48   Only no other company but Apple

00:21:50   would give them the same name.

00:21:52   And they shouldn't, therefore shouldn't have

00:21:54   quite the identical form factor

00:21:56   other than the ports either, right?

00:21:59   And it's specific to the word Pro

00:22:02   where it's just, Apple uses Pro,

00:22:06   I keep hammering this over and over again.

00:22:08   Apple uses Pro, sometimes what they really mean

00:22:11   is what everybody thinks Pro means,

00:22:12   which means professional.

00:22:14   And sometimes they just mean more expensive and nicer.

00:22:17   - Yeah.

00:22:18   - It's like--

00:22:20   - But I would never, this is like the old game,

00:22:23   like do you just spend the incremental money

00:22:25   to have the slightly nicer thing?

00:22:26   Is it worth it?

00:22:27   And so with the iPhone 12 Pro,

00:22:30   which is nominally what I am on this show to talk about.

00:22:33   (laughing)

00:22:35   30 minutes deep in the laptop.

00:22:37   But I think the money to get the Pro phone this year

00:22:42   is like extremely well worth it.

00:22:44   And especially if you're looking at the Pro phone

00:22:49   and you can deal with the size,

00:22:50   the money to get the Pro Max is like a no brainer,

00:22:53   assuming you can deal with the size.

00:22:55   And all that's fine, right?

00:22:56   Like I just, on my podcast decoder,

00:23:00   we had Phil Spencer from Xbox.

00:23:01   And I was like, why do you have two Xboxes?

00:23:02   He's like, the names are bad, we know it,

00:23:04   but people walk into a store

00:23:05   and they just see the price points

00:23:06   and that's all they care about and you can understand it.

00:23:08   So I totally buy it, right?

00:23:09   With the phones, it's like you spend more money,

00:23:11   you get one more camera lens and then the phone gets bigger.

00:23:14   Great, it makes sense.

00:23:15   With the MacBook Air and the Pro,

00:23:18   they're so similar that I would never spend the money

00:23:21   to go from the Air to the Pro unless I had that need

00:23:24   for sustained performance, which very, very few people do.

00:23:29   And if I do have that need,

00:23:30   I'm gonna wait to see what the better Pro looks like.

00:23:34   - Right.

00:23:35   - Because I almost certainly need more ports.

00:23:38   And I think, and this goes back to your,

00:23:40   are they phone chips or computer chips?

00:23:42   I have no idea what this thing looks like

00:23:44   when it has more than 16 gigs of RAM.

00:23:46   - Right.

00:23:46   - And 16 gigs, it does appear

00:23:48   to be a little performance managed.

00:23:50   - Right.

00:23:51   I don't know, I feel like they managed it right.

00:23:55   I wish that these 13-inch MacBook Pros

00:23:58   somehow could have a different name.

00:24:01   I don't know what it would be.

00:24:03   - MacBook.

00:24:04   - I know, but they already spoiled that with the one,

00:24:06   I'm not that Apple's supposed to--

00:24:07   - Like they care.

00:24:08   - Right, like they care about reusing names, but--

00:24:11   - Like what is a MagSafe connector?

00:24:13   Like, who knows?

00:24:14   But I do think, I do kind of think that they misused

00:24:17   the just plain no adjective MacBook name

00:24:20   for the adorable little 12-inch no fan.

00:24:24   This is what we'd clearly like to build

00:24:27   and we're trying our best with what Intel has to offer,

00:24:30   but yeah, it's kind of slow.

00:24:32   MacBook.

00:24:33   But I still feel like that was,

00:24:35   that should have been like the MacBook Nano or something,

00:24:37   because like the most striking element about it was,

00:24:40   oh my God, this makes the MacBook Air

00:24:42   look thick and heavy and big and it's tiny,

00:24:45   as opposed to just plain MacBook

00:24:48   should be like the iPhone 12, right?

00:24:51   Not the 12 Mini, not the Pro, not the Max,

00:24:55   just the iPhone 12.

00:24:57   This is like the main new iPhone

00:25:00   and then you can define all the other ones

00:25:02   based on how they relate to it.

00:25:04   That that, the 13-inch MacBook Pro

00:25:07   should be the 13-inch MacBook.

00:25:10   This is a MacBook.

00:25:12   - Yeah, I mean, I think you're running into the,

00:25:15   well, you're doing fine.

00:25:16   I think Apple is running into,

00:25:17   they just have a billion customers.

00:25:21   - Right.

00:25:21   - So they're not, they have to consistently re,

00:25:24   and they're very good at this.

00:25:25   They have to reinforce and build on what people already know.

00:25:28   This goes to your point about

00:25:30   slow developer transition Apple Silicon, right?

00:25:33   This year, you know this,

00:25:34   next year we're gonna give you one more fact.

00:25:36   - Yeah.

00:25:37   - I think with the names, they're eager to reuse names.

00:25:40   - The front camera on the iPhone

00:25:41   is still technically called the iSight.

00:25:44   - Is it really?

00:25:44   I thought it was the FaceTime camera, I don't know.

00:25:47   - Everyone calls it the FaceTime camera

00:25:48   and Apple's like, our four megapixel iSight.

00:25:51   It's like, I don't know what you're talking about.

00:25:53   But I think they keep that consistency from year to year

00:25:57   just because their market is so big

00:26:01   that any change carries an enormous communication cost.

00:26:04   I think that's what happened with the Air.

00:26:06   The Air was their most popular laptop.

00:26:07   They tried to make it go away and people kept buying it.

00:26:09   So they're like, screw it, we're just gonna make a new Air.

00:26:11   - Yeah, yeah, and I kind of feel like they know things,

00:26:15   they know some things about the people who buy them

00:26:18   that they're never gonna tell for competitive reasons.

00:26:21   Not just, oh, we're secretive and we just don't talk.

00:26:23   But, you know, and I wouldn't be surprised

00:26:26   if there's just a segment of the MacBook buying population

00:26:29   who thinks of themselves as having, quote, unquote,

00:26:33   pro needs and so they want a MacBook Pro,

00:26:37   but they really, they don't need a pro version.

00:26:40   They need, you know, something that, you know, like $1,300.

00:26:43   And so, okay, we'll give you one that has the pro name on it

00:26:46   and that way you'll buy it, even though honestly,

00:26:49   honestly, you wouldn't come close to taxing the MacBook Air.

00:26:52   - Yeah, I think that's right.

00:26:54   And I think Apple's brilliant

00:26:56   in just getting that extra little,

00:26:57   I think that's the iPhone 12 Pro.

00:26:59   It's a little bit better because it costs substantially more.

00:27:03   But if you're gonna be there, you might as well be there.

00:27:05   - Yeah.

00:27:06   All right, we can come back to the MacBook.

00:27:08   Let me take a break while I'm thinking about it

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00:29:00   So basically, the bottom line of the M1 reviews--

00:29:05   and I finally get into the bottom of reading them all--

00:29:09   it is-- they've done something that seems too good to be true.

00:29:13   It's super fast and runs cool.

00:29:16   And they've got a translation system that is pretty fast.

00:29:21   It's not magic.

00:29:23   It doesn't run Intel as fast as native Apple silicon on this.

00:29:26   But because the chip is so fast and the translation

00:29:30   is so good, most stuff runs at like 70%

00:29:34   the speed of native code.

00:29:37   And because the chips are like more than 150% faster,

00:29:43   it actually runs faster than most Intel MacBooks,

00:29:46   even when you're running Intel code.

00:29:48   And those seem to defy people's beliefs.

00:29:51   People seem to think you can have fast chips or cool chips.

00:29:55   And translation or emulation, whatever you want to call it,

00:29:58   stinks and is riddled with compatibility errors.

00:30:02   And even when it does work, it runs too slow.

00:30:05   And none of those things are true.

00:30:07   And I think people are having a hard time getting

00:30:09   their heads around that.

00:30:11   Yeah, the only thing keeping me from instantly buying an M1 Mac

00:30:15   Mini-- which I just love the Mac Mini.

00:30:18   I've wanted one for some reason, for a long time.

00:30:21   And I've never had a good reason.

00:30:23   And I need an M1 test machine, seems

00:30:26   like a good enough reason-- is that I hate Big Sur.

00:30:29   And that's-- I just don't like the way it looks.

00:30:33   And I have a long personal history

00:30:35   of skipping OS X versions.

00:30:38   I've done it almost subconsciously for like 10 years.

00:30:42   I think I was probably the last person to use Snow Leopard.

00:30:45   Like Apple was looking at their stats dashboard,

00:30:47   like who's that one person?

00:30:49   It was me.

00:30:50   I think there were a lot of people

00:30:51   who held onto Snow Leopard for a long time.

00:30:53   It was great.

00:30:53   And so Big Sur to me feels like they've

00:30:56   got a lot of new ideas in this OS,

00:30:59   particularly around notifications and Control Center.

00:31:02   I'm just going to wait for them to figure it out.

00:31:05   And that is the only thing that would keep me from instantly

00:31:07   buying one of these machines.

00:31:10   Because it turns out I get a lot of notifications.

00:31:13   So to have that broken in any way for me

00:31:15   is-- it's just a real mess.

00:31:17   So that's literally it.

00:31:20   That's the only thing-- that-- and I think you and Joanna

00:31:22   have probably done like 45 rounds on the webcam.

00:31:25   But that's like whatever.

00:31:26   I have external webcams.

00:31:29   But yeah, to me it really comes down to these

00:31:33   are great machines.

00:31:35   There's a lot of new ideas in them.

00:31:36   And one of those ideas, for me anyway,

00:31:39   is just the workflow notifications

00:31:42   has changed so dramatically with the OS.

00:31:43   I'm not going to upgrade any of my Macs for a year.

00:31:46   I don't think there's any hesitation in my mind

00:31:48   to say that the most disruptive thing about switching

00:31:52   to an M1 Mac is Mac OS 11 Big Sur.

00:31:55   And only in the exact same ways that it

00:31:59   would be if you upgraded your existing machine to Mac OS 11

00:32:02   Big Sur.

00:32:04   No question in my mind that that's the most disruptive

00:32:06   thing for most people.

00:32:08   To me, Catalina was the one that I just never liked.

00:32:12   And I didn't upgrade my main machine to Catalina

00:32:18   until like August.

00:32:20   And by then it was mostly ironed out and I didn't regret it.

00:32:25   But that's almost like 10 months after it shipped.

00:32:28   I was definitely not going to upgrade to Catalina,

00:32:30   but it has one feature.

00:32:32   One extremely-- this is how precious I am about workflows.

00:32:36   There's one thing in Catalina that made my workflow better

00:32:39   and I upgraded.

00:32:40   It's when you take a screenshot and that image drops

00:32:42   to the bottom right corner.

00:32:44   You can click on it directly and drag it into a window.

00:32:46   Yeah, and do something with it.

00:32:48   And do something with it right from that little preview.

00:32:51   And you couldn't do that in the older version.

00:32:53   I was like, well crap, here I go.

00:32:55   Yeah, but I have to say, so I've only used Catalina full time

00:33:00   since like August.

00:33:01   And then I started splitting a lot of time with Big Sur

00:33:04   on a test machine while it was in beta.

00:33:07   And now that I'm using this, I have to be on Big Sur.

00:33:10   And so I'm OK.

00:33:12   And there are-- again, talk about a two hour

00:33:14   episode of a podcast.

00:33:15   I do have some complaints about the Mac OS Big Sur UI design.

00:33:19   And I can't wait to write about them

00:33:20   once I catch my breath on all this review stuff on Daring

00:33:23   Fireball and hopefully try to get some of this--

00:33:27   the attention of people who can fix it.

00:33:30   But overall, I like it.

00:33:32   And I kind of feel like it's a better take on this style.

00:33:38   I mean, it's obvious what they're going for

00:33:40   and what they've been going for with iOS 7 inspired Mac OS ever

00:33:45   since-- whatever the version is.

00:33:48   Mac OS 10.10 or 10.11, whatever it

00:33:50   was when they first switched to something that vaguely looked

00:33:55   like the iOS 7 look and feel, flat, flatter.

00:34:00   And it's like it never sat right.

00:34:04   And it's like those--

00:34:05   like they switched-- they wanted to get them on the same branding

00:34:11   universe.

00:34:12   I don't know.

00:34:13   But they did it before they had the San Francisco

00:34:16   typeface ready to go.

00:34:17   So those first two years, the Mac was using Helvetica

00:34:21   as the system font, which never looked right.

00:34:24   It was just-- it's just like, what is this?

00:34:27   And it's like, you could use it for a whole year.

00:34:29   And every time I'd look at it, I would think,

00:34:32   that just looks weird.

00:34:34   That just doesn't look like a Mac system font.

00:34:37   And it's not like, oh, I'm stubborn

00:34:39   and I don't want the system font to ever change-- what was it?

00:34:42   Lucida Grandi?

00:34:44   I don't know how you pronounce it.

00:34:47   It was Lucida Grandi for the whole Mac OS 10 era from 10.0

00:34:51   through whenever they switched to this to Helvetica.

00:34:54   But then as soon as they switched it to San Francisco,

00:34:56   it was like, ah, Ice Water in Hell.

00:34:59   This is a font.

00:35:01   Maybe it's not somebody's favorite font,

00:35:03   but it's like, this could be the Mac system font.

00:35:06   Nice.

00:35:08   Yeah.

00:35:08   I feel like Big Sur, they went back

00:35:11   and it was like they gave a different team of designers.

00:35:14   They said, OK, forget about what we've been using

00:35:16   for the last five years.

00:35:17   Just forget it.

00:35:19   Make a version of the Mac OS system

00:35:21   that looks like more inspired by the general look of iOS.

00:35:26   And it's sort of like a retry at the same thing

00:35:28   that they've been trying for five years.

00:35:30   You're walking into it, man.

00:35:34   This whole game is to make the things look like each other

00:35:37   so that the huge audience of iOS users

00:35:40   feels comfortable and at home using a Mac

00:35:43   and switches at a higher rate.

00:35:45   That's what you want.

00:35:46   You want it to be a seamless ecosystem.

00:35:49   You know what the biggest holdup is?

00:35:52   You touch an iPhone.

00:35:55   And so you're showing people all of these controls

00:35:58   and all of these interface elements

00:36:00   that look like the things they used to touch

00:36:03   that are harder to use with a mouse than before.

00:36:06   And you're not letting them touch them.

00:36:08   That, to me, I spend more time--

00:36:11   I bet if you measured it, I spend more time

00:36:13   clicking in the upper right of my screen

00:36:16   than anything when I use a Mac.

00:36:17   Because I'm closing notifications

00:36:19   or I'm monkeying around with the Wi-Fi and the volume

00:36:22   and audio inputs and outputs.

00:36:25   I'm going to do not disturb, which

00:36:27   is really easy on Catalina.

00:36:30   All that stuff got harder because all of it

00:36:32   is meant for swipes.

00:36:33   Or it looks like it's meant for swipes.

00:36:35   It's not meant for clicking.

00:36:36   And it's driving me insane.

00:36:38   Yeah, but that's-- and some of it--

00:36:42   I think the stuff that--

00:36:44   like the notification center stuff,

00:36:47   definitely it's true because they actually

00:36:49   are the same widgets, right?

00:36:50   Yes.

00:36:51   Right?

00:36:51   And that is a Swift UI thing.

00:36:54   And I think it's working out pretty well.

00:36:58   And it's sort of the first really serious test of Swift UI

00:37:04   that Apple's doing.

00:37:05   And it's just one of these transitions

00:37:08   that has to take years.

00:37:09   And no matter-- if 10 years from now we look back at it

00:37:13   and we say, wow, the transition to Swift UI

00:37:15   as the UI framework for Apple, wasn't that a breeze?

00:37:20   And it's like you forget that it's

00:37:22   like the first three or four years of Mac OS X,

00:37:25   where it's like, while you were living it,

00:37:27   it wasn't so smooth.

00:37:28   It was actually kind of awful.

00:37:30   And not that Swift UI is awful, but that it just

00:37:34   wasn't deep enough to do anything useful.

00:37:36   And now they've got these widgets that ship

00:37:39   the same across platforms.

00:37:43   And obviously, they have to be designed

00:37:45   for touch on the touch ones and not for touch on the Mac.

00:37:49   I just think-- I just don't see them

00:37:52   going with that style of design for everything

00:37:55   because there are certain aspects of the Mac

00:37:58   where it wouldn't work.

00:37:59   I don't know.

00:38:00   I don't see it as touch being the answer to the problems.

00:38:04   I think the real question for Apple

00:38:08   is that these machines are, in many ways, a chip swap.

00:38:14   And that's how they manage the Intel transition to.

00:38:18   You already know everything, tried and true design.

00:38:21   They're just faster because of one part

00:38:23   that we can identify, the chip.

00:38:25   As you go beyond that and you say,

00:38:28   now we can build around the chip itself

00:38:30   and what can we accomplish, it feels natural

00:38:32   that that endless--

00:38:35   here's your two-hour podcast--

00:38:36   that endless iPad versus Mac conversation

00:38:39   is going to get even harder.

00:38:42   And the number of people who just want a touchscreen

00:38:47   on their Mac because there's one game they want to play

00:38:49   and touch alternatives is a horrible way

00:38:52   to play an iOS game on a Mac.

00:38:54   That number is just going to grow.

00:38:56   Whereas the number of people who value

00:38:57   the iPad because it's way more simple is also going to grow.

00:39:00   And I think that tension cannot be resolved by saying one

00:39:03   has a touchscreen and one doesn't.

00:39:05   Yeah, but if the screen doesn't detach like a tablet,

00:39:08   I don't know that the games are going to be that fun anyway.

00:39:11   Has any Windows laptop manufacturer ever just

00:39:14   sent you a Windows laptop with a touchscreen?

00:39:16   No.

00:39:17   Yeah, but if one of them is out there listening,

00:39:19   just do it for a month.

00:39:22   It's really nice.

00:39:24   Even on Windows-- and Windows 10 has gotten better over time.

00:39:26   I mean, I use my iPad--

00:39:27   But it is actually very nice to just swipe up on a screen.

00:39:30   Nah, I use my iPad as a laptop.

00:39:31   You use your iPad like that.

00:39:32   Yeah, and I don't really-- if the touchscreen stopped

00:39:35   working when it was in the keyboard,

00:39:37   I wouldn't even notice.

00:39:39   I honestly-- every once in a while, I touch.

00:39:42   And I certainly don't play games while it's

00:39:45   in that form factor, right?

00:39:46   When I do play a game on the iPad, it's like I pick it up.

00:39:49   It has to be detachable.

00:39:50   And all sorts of other stuff has to happen.

00:39:54   It's this weird-- I don't know.

00:39:56   I feel like you and Joanna and others who see this as coming

00:40:02   are underestimating the way that Apple

00:40:04   looks at these sort of things.

00:40:07   I don't think Apple looks at it and-- now, I could be wrong.

00:40:10   Because according to my logic, Joanna and I went over this.

00:40:14   By the same logic, they shouldn't

00:40:15   have shipped the iPhone apps running on Big Sur at all.

00:40:20   Period.

00:40:21   Because the basic idea is it should be very nice

00:40:24   and designed for what it does from top to bottom, A to Z,

00:40:29   or just not at all.

00:40:31   And so if it's not designed for touch in every way,

00:40:36   with every button, then you shouldn't have touch,

00:40:39   even if touch would be nice just for scrolling.

00:40:42   I mean, that's what--

00:40:42   Ben Thompson is always telling me.

00:40:44   Even if it just worked for scrolling,

00:40:46   it would be nice to just reach up and be able to flip

00:40:48   your finger and scroll something.

00:40:50   And I get it that it would be nice,

00:40:52   and that people do if they've spent time using another device

00:40:56   that is touch, and then they sit down at the MacBook,

00:40:58   and they see a web page, and they want to just scroll it,

00:41:01   and they touch the screen.

00:41:02   And they're like, oh, yeah, it doesn't work on this machine.

00:41:04   But I'm telling you that Apple's way of looking at it is,

00:41:07   well, wait, if we give you touch for that,

00:41:08   you're going to want touch for everything.

00:41:10   And the red, yellow, green buttons

00:41:12   need to be made twice as big and put twice as far apart.

00:41:15   And then that eats into the space,

00:41:17   and et cetera, and so forth, all the way down the line.

00:41:20   And how do you select text, right?

00:41:22   Selecting text is still a nightmare on iOS.

00:41:25   Yeah, I guess what I would say, and I'm almost certainly just

00:41:28   recapitulating Joanna and Ben, is Apple is wrong.

00:41:33   And by extension, you are too, John.

00:41:35   And people are smarter now than we give them credit for.

00:41:41   And the idea that there are things

00:41:42   that are good to touch on a screen interface,

00:41:46   and things where you want to use your more precise input method,

00:41:49   is not out of the realm of what people understand

00:41:54   about computers anymore.

00:41:56   And I think maybe Apple's still just

00:41:58   gun-shy because every Windows Touch experience for two

00:42:01   decades was horrible.

00:42:03   And they never want to build that.

00:42:05   But I just--

00:42:06   Lightroom, beyond scrolling, I edit photos in Lightroom

00:42:09   at least three times a week.

00:42:11   And when I do it on my iPad, I'm like,

00:42:12   I just wish I had a mouse.

00:42:14   And when I do it on my laptop, I'm like,

00:42:16   I wish I could just pinch to zoom.

00:42:18   And there's no reason that I can do that on a Windows PC.

00:42:22   Right, or just smudge your finger over a face.

00:42:25   And it's funny because Lightroom editing is exactly the thing

00:42:28   where it's like the computer world has come full circle

00:42:32   to the way that--

00:42:33   that's like what dodging and burning was in--

00:42:37   that's the origins of the term in Photoshop,

00:42:39   is that people would actually, in a dark room,

00:42:42   just rub the photo as it was developing

00:42:45   to lighten the spot.

00:42:48   Yeah, I mean, it just--

00:42:50   I think they're on the path to it.

00:42:53   I think Federighi said, why would--

00:42:54   that's not even remotely on our mind, which I think

00:42:57   is a classic example of saying--

00:43:00   Apple saying something is a horrible idea right

00:43:02   until they do it.

00:43:03   And they're like, we did it the best way.

00:43:05   I'm very much hoping they are setting that curve for the next--

00:43:08   like I said, the evolution of the Mac

00:43:09   is about to get very interesting.

00:43:11   What does a touchscreen iMac look like?

00:43:13   I don't know.

00:43:14   But they have given themselves the ability

00:43:16   to make that thing in a way that I don't think the Intel

00:43:19   ships ever let them do.

00:43:21   I don't want to get distracted by touchscreen arguments, but--

00:43:26   Again, my-- so about those phones.

00:43:29   I will say this.

00:43:29   Here's the other thing.

00:43:31   The other thing that I come back to--

00:43:33   because my podcast machine here is this 2014 MacBook Pro.

00:43:37   It's one of my most beloved computers I've ever owned.

00:43:40   I still do love it.

00:43:41   But it does get hot.

00:43:43   It does have a fan that turns on less than most Macs of MacBooks

00:43:47   of that era.

00:43:47   But it's funny how just being in Mac OS still to this day,

00:43:55   like using a computer, it was clear you were

00:44:00   running a physical machine.

00:44:02   And the older you go in history, and the older you are,

00:44:05   the more you remember it.

00:44:06   Like floppy drives made noise.

00:44:10   Spinning hard disks made some amount of noise.

00:44:13   And if they made a lot of noise, then you

00:44:15   knew you were in trouble, right?

00:44:17   It was like a red alert back in the spinning hard disk era,

00:44:23   especially when drives were less reliable,

00:44:25   that if you started to hear a clicking noise from your hard

00:44:27   drive, immediately save anything that wasn't saved.

00:44:30   Immediately back up as best you could,

00:44:34   because it was extremely high likelihood

00:44:36   that your hard drive was about to go bad.

00:44:38   Because it was making a physical clicking noise,

00:44:40   a physical thing.

00:44:42   Fans come on.

00:44:43   Heat is generated.

00:44:46   When we used to have spinning disks,

00:44:48   and you could watch movies, you could put your hand over--

00:44:50   you knew which side the disk drive was on because it spun,

00:44:54   and you could feel it.

00:44:55   And it is sort of freaky.

00:44:59   Even though we've had phones that don't have fans,

00:45:02   and iPads that don't get hot and don't have fans,

00:45:05   and do computer-like things, when you're using a Mac,

00:45:08   and you're just used to, well, if I do this,

00:45:12   if I export a video, and it's a 10-minute video,

00:45:16   I know that it's going to get hot,

00:45:18   and the fan's going to come on.

00:45:19   And that doesn't happen.

00:45:20   It is weird.

00:45:22   It's just freaky.

00:45:24   My story-- I told this last week,

00:45:25   but I have to tell it again-- was I double-checked with Jason

00:45:28   Snell before I published my review to see if--

00:45:31   because I couldn't make the fan come on the 13-inch MacBook

00:45:34   Pro.

00:45:34   And I had this panicked moment of--

00:45:37   I'd just written over 1,000 words about how the fan--

00:45:41   it doesn't come on for me, even when I'm trying to.

00:45:44   And I thought, what if I have a lemon hardware unit?

00:45:48   And he was like, no, it's really hard to get the fan to come on.

00:45:50   And I'm like, oh my god, thank god.

00:45:52   It was just panic.

00:45:54   But it's just weird because I just associate Mac OS

00:45:58   with a machine that, in some ways--

00:46:01   even though they've been getting lesser and lesser as fewer

00:46:04   and fewer parts of the computer actually spin--

00:46:08   they manifest themselves physically in a way

00:46:11   that the M1 Macs don't.

00:46:14   Yeah.

00:46:15   I found it very hard to get the fan and the Pro to spin up too.

00:46:18   We ended up doing very synthetic things.

00:46:21   We ran Cinebench for 30 minutes on a loop.

00:46:26   We have a render test we do.

00:46:27   We render out the same review video.

00:46:30   So we all download the gigabytes and gigabytes of project files

00:46:33   and then render it out through Premiere.

00:46:35   Towards the end of that, I could get it to do it.

00:46:37   But again, it was just hard.

00:46:42   It's just a difficult thing to do.

00:46:43   And Dieter's MacBook Air, on that same render test,

00:46:46   which is very real world, in Intel emulation--

00:46:49   or in Rosetta translation in Premiere,

00:46:53   which you're not even really supposed to do.

00:46:55   His was only a little bit slower than mine.

00:46:57   And the Air was clearly--

00:46:59   doesn't have a fan to spin up.

00:47:01   So it's like even just the value of that fan,

00:47:06   it really feels subjective.

00:47:08   Where I think the actual difference for me

00:47:10   in terms of a machine--

00:47:12   and I think this is less M1 and more iOS versus Mac OS--

00:47:16   the Mac will just tell you about itself.

00:47:19   You can just open System Profiler,

00:47:21   and it'll tell you that it doesn't have a SATA port.

00:47:26   It just reveals itself to you.

00:47:28   You can open Terminal and screw around

00:47:31   and see actually how fast the cores are running,

00:47:34   whereas no iOS device ever does.

00:47:35   And I think that abstraction, to me,

00:47:39   is the last bit of this is a piece of hardware

00:47:43   that I actually have control over.

00:47:45   Whereas the things you're talking about hard drive,

00:47:48   the hard drive starts clicking.

00:47:50   And you know, I better get any hard drive.

00:47:51   Or the fan spins up, or the disks start reading.

00:47:54   You can hear that stuff.

00:47:55   That was a very tactile sense of this is my machine,

00:47:59   and I'm responsible for it.

00:48:01   And now, as those mechanical things go away,

00:48:04   in the sense that you have to change your engine

00:48:06   oil on your computer or whatever starts to disappear,

00:48:09   what's left is I'm still responsible for how

00:48:12   this computer operates in a way that I've never

00:48:15   felt that way about iOS, and even to an enormous extent,

00:48:18   Android.

00:48:20   And it just feels weird.

00:48:23   It's like this weird world's colliding, right?

00:48:27   It does.

00:48:28   There are many ways where you're using an M1 Mac,

00:48:31   and you're like, this is just like using an iPad.

00:48:33   But only in the sense of it being a physical device, right?

00:48:36   It's like your mental model of what you can do

00:48:39   and how you expect things to go.

00:48:41   Like, you just don't expect that you can run a thing

00:48:45   in the background and compile some big project that's

00:48:49   going to take 30 minutes in Xcode,

00:48:52   and just leave it--

00:48:54   Command-H it to put it in the background,

00:48:56   and just go about your business catching up on email

00:48:58   and reading in Safari or whatever,

00:49:01   and just know that it's still running as fast as it

00:49:03   can in the background.

00:49:06   You just don't think like-- you don't do things like that

00:49:08   on the iPad, I mean, literally, because there is no Xcode

00:49:11   on the iPad.

00:49:12   But when you put things in the background on the iPad,

00:49:15   you just expect that they get suspended,

00:49:17   not that they keep flying.

00:49:20   No, beyond suspended, you expect that when you reopen the app,

00:49:23   it'll reopen.

00:49:25   Yeah, hopefully it's still right where I left off.

00:49:28   And for the most part, in recent years,

00:49:30   it's gotten a lot better at that.

00:49:32   Things don't start over from scratch.

00:49:34   Or if they do, the apps are written

00:49:36   to handle it in a way that it's almost

00:49:39   indistinguishable from just having been

00:49:41   suspended and reanimated.

00:49:43   But it just-- I don't know.

00:49:46   My big takeaway from this is that the M1 and the Mac

00:49:50   experience just makes me think, well,

00:49:52   what is going on with iPad?

00:49:54   I'm more curious about the future of iPad

00:49:56   than I am about the future of Mac,

00:49:57   even though I have lots of exciting questions

00:50:00   about what they could do with truly pro chips.

00:50:03   It's like-- it just really makes the iPad, to me,

00:50:07   seem so hamstrung by its OS.

00:50:11   Yeah, but that's the secret of the iPad.

00:50:14   They could have launched the first iPad with an Intel chip,

00:50:17   right, assuming an appropriate chip existed.

00:50:20   It wouldn't have made a difference.

00:50:22   The whole point was, here's a new form factor of computing.

00:50:25   Here's a new set of assumptions.

00:50:27   We're effectively starting from scratch,

00:50:29   and we're going to build up over time.

00:50:31   And what they've built up to over time

00:50:32   is something that looks almost exactly like a Mac.

00:50:35   And now the Mac has the M1, and they look even more

00:50:37   like each other.

00:50:38   And I think-- yeah, maybe that thing you're talking about,

00:50:41   that 12-inch MacBook that's just called a MacBook,

00:50:44   maybe that thing just is an iPad.

00:50:46   I don't know.

00:50:47   At the end of the day, maybe there is a convergence point.

00:50:51   You ask anybody at Apple about this,

00:50:52   and they just look at you like you're the craziest person

00:50:55   to ever live.

00:50:56   They're like, no one cares.

00:50:57   People just buy what they want to buy,

00:50:59   and we make them all at the end.

00:51:00   We're the richest company in the world,

00:51:02   and this plan has been working, and these problems

00:51:04   are all in your head.

00:51:05   And I think, to a certain extent, that is an enormous

00:51:08   source of power for Apple.

00:51:10   It's true that they make these things.

00:51:13   They sell as many as they can make.

00:51:15   On the other hand, there's just a lot of confusion

00:51:18   right in that zone for regular people.

00:51:20   And especially now, when you can get a MacBook Air that

00:51:23   goes for 12 hours on a charge, why would you

00:51:26   tell anyone to buy an iPad?

00:51:28   Yeah, and you can do it without--

00:51:30   you can do it while using Chrome as your browser, right?

00:51:33   And that, to me, is sort of the other--

00:51:36   When you go to watch Netflix, you're

00:51:38   not immediately sucked into a spiral

00:51:40   of extremely weird politics.

00:51:43   Right, right.

00:51:44   You just do it.

00:51:45   It's fine.

00:51:46   Right.

00:51:46   You just do it, and it looks great.

00:51:50   It takes complete advantage of the resolution of your screen,

00:51:54   and it's nice and bright, and the video just plays,

00:51:56   and the machine doesn't get hot.

00:51:58   And it's like, oh, I better not put it on my lap,

00:52:00   because it'll literally make my lap hot.

00:52:04   It just runs.

00:52:05   It just runs the way you think that it should.

00:52:07   And it's like, yeah, actually, watching a TV show on Netflix

00:52:11   shouldn't tax your computer, or like you said,

00:52:14   get you into this weird politics of, oh, wait--

00:52:16   There's not a button that says, please email Phil Schiller,

00:52:19   so you can subscribe in the app.

00:52:21   There's a whole world where iOS actually

00:52:23   has gotten more complicated than a Mac, because of how they

00:52:27   manage the application ecosystem.

00:52:30   I also do wonder, too, though-- and it seems like that is--

00:52:35   before we leave off the Mac segment--

00:52:37   I mean, they clearly are leaning on some of the, hey,

00:52:41   here's the reason why we're letting iPad apps run

00:52:44   on the Mac now is for video.

00:52:46   And they keep promoting HBO Max, because you

00:52:49   can get the HBO Max app.

00:52:51   And it's so much worse than watching in the web browser,

00:52:55   other than the fact that the app lets you download

00:52:58   for offline viewing.

00:52:59   And A, who's doing that now?

00:53:02   I mean, I know that we're not going to be permanently

00:53:05   in a pandemic quarantine, but everything else about it

00:53:08   is so much worse than just going to your web browser

00:53:11   and typing HB and auto-filling the rest.

00:53:15   And again, like with Netflix, people

00:53:18   just know when they're on a laptop-type thing,

00:53:21   how do you get to Netflix?

00:53:22   You don't go for an app.

00:53:23   You just go to your browser.

00:53:24   You type NE.

00:53:25   It auto-completes.

00:53:26   You hit Return, and there you are watching whatever

00:53:29   show you were just watching.

00:53:31   Yeah, one of the funniest things--

00:53:34   this is a total engine, but we covered the rise and very fast

00:53:39   fall of Quibi very closely.

00:53:42   Because it's like this--

00:53:44   here's a car crash we're going to look at.

00:53:46   And one of the problems they had was

00:53:47   they didn't let anybody screenshot and make memes out

00:53:50   of their shows.

00:53:51   And Julia Alexander at the Ridge wrote all this stuff about it.

00:53:54   It was great coverage.

00:53:55   And Tom Conrad, who was the CTO of Quibi,

00:53:59   had an entire threat.

00:54:00   We finally built a screenshot capability.

00:54:03   But because of DRM, both at a technical level and our deals

00:54:07   to use DRM, we can't just let you take a screenshot.

00:54:10   We had to build an entire other iOS flow for screenshots.

00:54:14   And I think they had to build one similarly on Android.

00:54:16   On the Mac, people just open Netflix and Chrome

00:54:19   and take screenshots.

00:54:21   And that is a huge earned media opportunity

00:54:24   for all these shows.

00:54:25   And I think that level of the mobile operating systems

00:54:31   are just built differently with different assumptions,

00:54:33   with different capabilities.

00:54:36   When you get to that point where what people want to do

00:54:39   is just take a screenshot of Tiger King and tweet it,

00:54:44   it's way easier on a Mac.

00:54:45   Like, by far, it does not require the CTO of a company

00:54:49   to build a screenshot tool.

00:54:52   And I think that stuff just keeps redounding to the mat.

00:54:54   Because I think people are just getting smarter and smarter

00:54:57   about how to use computers.

00:54:59   Makes total sense.

00:54:59   It's just the progression of time.

00:55:01   But eventually, you're like, I just want to do this thing.

00:55:03   And Mac always lets you do it.

00:55:06   And it's just such a crazy mindset, too,

00:55:08   that it ever got into it that, hey, we can't even

00:55:11   let people take a screenshot of one frame of the show

00:55:13   because they might somehow--

00:55:14   It's going to reduce the value of Quibi.

00:55:16   Yeah, I don't know.

00:55:17   Yeah.

00:55:20   Yeah, it's like some version of the famous step two is dot,

00:55:24   dot, dot.

00:55:25   Step three is profit.

00:55:26   But except in this case, it's like, one,

00:55:29   allow them to take a screenshot of one of our shows.

00:55:32   Step two, dot, dot, dot.

00:55:34   Step three, piracy.

00:55:35   But it was just a screenshot.

00:55:39   And it's like, all they wanted to do is have a piece of artwork

00:55:42   to put in their article or put in the social media post

00:55:45   or just show a funny frame.

00:55:49   Like, oh my god, this is so funny.

00:55:51   Look at this.

00:55:51   And here's a frame.

00:55:52   And then maybe people would actually watch Quibi.

00:55:54   Well, yeah, but this is true of Netflix, too.

00:55:57   You cannot screenshot Netflix.

00:55:58   You can't screenshot each-- in their apps, on their platforms.

00:56:01   Right.

00:56:02   I know.

00:56:02   And I think that is--

00:56:03   Right.

00:56:04   Right, that's because the video subsystems of those OSes

00:56:07   were made for Hollywood because those were the app developers

00:56:11   that wanted to do it and address that audience.

00:56:13   Whereas in a web browser on Windows or the Mac,

00:56:18   those are just general purpose video systems.

00:56:21   And the screenshot system was not architected knowing

00:56:23   that that thing would exist.

00:56:25   And this is just a long way of saying, eventually,

00:56:30   that the iPad problem is going to be that it's

00:56:33   built on all of those assumptions

00:56:36   and looks exactly like a Mac that

00:56:37   has none of those limitations.

00:56:40   Right.

00:56:41   And it has-- it'll be hard for it to grow,

00:56:44   as opposed to already--

00:56:47   it's easier for the Mac to get simpler in certain modal ways,

00:56:51   if that's your use case and that's the type of user

00:56:54   you are, than for the iPad to get more complicated,

00:56:57   because it's going to start running into those limitations

00:56:59   that are sort of hard-coded into the way it works.

00:57:01   Yeah.

00:57:02   And I think that's--

00:57:03   I don't say this is a problem.

00:57:06   I think it's-- here's one of the most interesting challenges

00:57:09   Apple as a company has.

00:57:11   And then around it, in the ecosystem of computer

00:57:15   companies, it is fascinating to see people try

00:57:19   to solve that problem faster.

00:57:21   So Microsoft is way ahead of that curve with the Surface

00:57:23   line.

00:57:24   Whether or not you want to run Windows is another question,

00:57:27   and whether that's going to work great with your phone,

00:57:29   yet another question.

00:57:30   But you look at any of the Surface products,

00:57:33   and they are trying very hard to make that line as blurry

00:57:36   as possible.

00:57:38   Yeah, definitely.

00:57:39   And even the names, again, I get so confused as to which one

00:57:43   is which.

00:57:44   It's like, wait, which one detaches?

00:57:46   I don't know, Pro?

00:57:49   Yeah, it's the same as any other Microsoft product.

00:57:53   You know how you tell them apart?

00:57:54   They're prices.

00:57:56   It's like, why are your stuff like Surface Go, Surface Pro,

00:57:58   Surface laptop?

00:57:59   It's like, I don't know, one is $399 and one is $1499,

00:58:03   and that's how you know.

00:58:06   Anyway, the last thing I will say

00:58:07   is that to me the most interesting thing about the M1

00:58:11   hardware advantages is that they do manifest themselves even

00:58:17   if you're not a Mac user, by which meaning

00:58:21   that you don't use a lot of apps or very few apps that

00:58:24   are the Mac apps.

00:58:25   Like maybe you don't use Apple's Mail app,

00:58:27   you just go to Gmail in your browser.

00:58:30   And maybe the browser is Chrome.

00:58:32   And you do all these things that don't put you in the Mac world,

00:58:36   and you don't use these things that Mac users know,

00:58:40   and you're not familiar with the way standard shortcuts are.

00:58:43   And so you're not weirded out by the weird moon man

00:58:46   shortcuts in this app that you use that aren't Mac-like.

00:58:50   But your computer does say MacBook, and it is Mac OS X.

00:58:53   And the way that the M1 makes all that just work better,

00:58:58   even though you're not a Mac user,

00:59:01   you're just a user who uses the Mac,

00:59:03   is a huge advantage for Apple.

00:59:06   And I think it's going to be for a few years,

00:59:08   where even if you just want to use Chrome mostly,

00:59:11   it's really hard not to recommend like $1,000 MacBook

00:59:14   Air as the machine to do it.

00:59:16   Oh, yeah.

00:59:16   I mean, again, this was our huge debate over whether or not

00:59:20   you give this computer a 10.

00:59:22   We could have done it, and we would have justified it.

00:59:24   And we could have done it.

00:59:26   We were this close to doing it.

00:59:28   And we took one step back and said, well,

00:59:31   this webcam is really bad, and we're

00:59:32   going to ding at half a point.

00:59:33   Like, that's it.

00:59:35   And that is a huge jump.

00:59:37   Really, what we kept comparing it to was that Haswell MacBook

00:59:40   Air, where for three years, four years,

00:59:45   every time Joanna reviewed a laptop at the Verge,

00:59:47   the last line would be like, for $200 more,

00:59:49   you can buy a MacBook Air.

00:59:51   And that was the standard.

00:59:52   And I think this new Air is easily the standard

00:59:55   that everybody else has to hit.

00:59:58   Yeah, and the one to compare everything against.

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01:01:47   It's time to talk iPhones.

01:01:49   iPhone 12.

01:01:52   I have hardly talked about--

01:01:53   I'm number one, I don't do enough episodes

01:01:54   of my show probably.

01:01:55   But number two, I just feel like I haven't caught my breath.

01:01:59   I was hoping.

01:02:00   I was like, please let me Eli be reviewing the 12 Pro Max.

01:02:03   Please let Eli be reviewing the 12 Pro Max.

01:02:07   And I was so glad that you were, because I

01:02:09   knew that you would push it.

01:02:10   And I'm so averse to the size, I was like, forget it.

01:02:17   I'm spending my week where I had both the Mini and the Pro Max,

01:02:22   mostly with the Mini.

01:02:25   Because it's more of interest to me.

01:02:29   And it's like, if the 12 Pro, not Max,

01:02:34   had the same camera system as the 12 Pro Max,

01:02:38   I guess that's what I would buy for myself.

01:02:40   But I was like, I don't get this camera system.

01:02:47   I see how it should be better.

01:02:49   But my initial testing was like, I don't see it.

01:02:52   I'm not seeing what's better about it.

01:02:55   And then I read your review, and it was like, yeah,

01:02:57   there's some of that in here.

01:02:58   And oh, I see.

01:03:00   And your Twilight pictures really

01:03:03   captured where it has some noise differences.

01:03:07   I'm curious what you think now, for several weeks later.

01:03:10   Are you still using the 12 Pro Max?

01:03:11   Mine is on order.

01:03:12   It's on its way.

01:03:14   But right now I'm using the review unit.

01:03:16   And I haven't since I've had it.

01:03:18   It's still too big.

01:03:23   And I don't think it's too big.

01:03:27   It's unreasonable, but it's bigger than the last one.

01:03:32   And every time I pick it up, I'm like, this thing is--

01:03:35   man, if I was still traveling, this would be it.

01:03:37   I wouldn't even take a computer with me.

01:03:38   It's that big.

01:03:41   And so I think it's right at the edge.

01:03:44   It's the first thing I think every time I pick it up.

01:03:46   This is right on the line of being too big.

01:03:48   The next number up is seven, and a seven-inch screen

01:03:51   is a tablet screen.

01:03:53   So it's right on line.

01:03:54   In terms of the camera, though, I

01:03:57   should have put this in the review.

01:03:59   I didn't.

01:04:00   It didn't even occur to me that this is what I was thinking

01:04:03   until I read Joanna's review and I saw Marquez's review.

01:04:09   And so Marquez was like, these cameras are the same.

01:04:12   I was like, that's not at all-- and I realized what was

01:04:14   happening is what you actually get out of the Pro Max day

01:04:19   to day is it'll just go at a faster shutter speed.

01:04:24   Because it can crank the ISO higher.

01:04:27   And that is-- if you're a photo person, that makes sense.

01:04:31   But no one knows that that's how anything works.

01:04:34   But at the end of the day, it's just a camera, right?

01:04:36   It's got three numbers that it can monkey with.

01:04:39   It can monkey with the aperture, which is fixed on an iPhone.

01:04:43   But on a regular camera, you get a faster aperture,

01:04:44   you get more light.

01:04:45   You can move the shutter speed around

01:04:48   to let more or less light in, freeze motion.

01:04:52   Or you can monkey with the ISO to make

01:04:54   the sensor more sensitive to light and also generally more

01:04:57   noisy.

01:04:59   And there isn't a camera in the world

01:05:02   that doesn't follow that little equation.

01:05:05   And all that's happening with the Pro Max is--

01:05:07   I just pulled it up here.

01:05:09   The regular iPhone 12 Pro has a top ISO of 5,808.

01:05:13   The Pro Max has 7,616.

01:05:17   And so it's an enormous range for a phone.

01:05:22   But all that means is it'll just click the shutter faster.

01:05:25   And so if you were spending a lot of time,

01:05:26   like I did, taking a picture of a toddler at night,

01:05:29   you're like, oh, these photos are way better.

01:05:32   But if you're doing--

01:05:33   and reviewing phones, cameras, reviewing anything

01:05:36   in the pandemic has been so hard.

01:05:38   So all I'm doing is running around.

01:05:40   I'm like, here's a tree that look exactly the same,

01:05:43   because that extra shutter speed doesn't buy you anything.

01:05:46   And I think that's really, really hard for Apple to market.

01:05:49   Just the amount of explanation I just did does not fit into an ad.

01:05:53   They're like 27% more light or whatever.

01:05:55   And it doesn't mean anything except the ISO is less noise

01:05:59   at any given number.

01:05:59   And that, to me, was where it clicked in my head,

01:06:06   because it's like, why?

01:06:07   They wouldn't do this.

01:06:09   I know the way Apple thinks.

01:06:12   And there's no way that they would go through the effort of shipping

01:06:18   an entirely different physical camera system only in the Pro Max

01:06:23   if there weren't very practical advantages to doing so.

01:06:27   I mean, it's just common sense.

01:06:28   You don't have to be in operations to think it would be cheaper if they just

01:06:34   put the same system in that the 12 Pro has,

01:06:37   because then they could just mass produce the same one.

01:06:40   And it's obviously a little cheaper and just stick it in the big one, which

01:06:44   is what they've been doing the last few years between the 11 Pro and 11 Pro

01:06:48   Max and the 10S and the 10S Max.

01:06:51   It's just the same camera system in a bigger phone.

01:06:55   But I wasn't seeing what it was.

01:06:57   And boiling it down to faster captures is exactly it.

01:07:02   And that's why I wasn't seeing it.

01:07:03   I don't have a toddler anymore.

01:07:06   I have a 16-year-old who doesn't move.

01:07:09   Yeah, playing Fortnite, right?

01:07:10   Rock still.

01:07:12   Yeah, let me get a--

01:07:13   turn around.

01:07:13   Let me get a picture of you playing with me.

01:07:15   And even the sensor shifts, they changed the stabilization.

01:07:19   They went from-- it's optical.

01:07:20   It moves the lens and the smaller phones.

01:07:22   On the bigger phone, they moved to sensor shift,

01:07:24   which is very much like what Sony and Panasonic do in their mirrorless cameras.

01:07:28   That's because the sensor is bigger.

01:07:30   I mean, I asked.

01:07:31   I was like, what do you get out of this?

01:07:32   They're like, well, once the sensor gets to about this size,

01:07:35   it's faster and easier to move the sensor.

01:07:38   And maybe there's some little bit of performance advantage

01:07:42   at the extremes of the scale.

01:07:44   But they were like, look, the 12 Pro is a great camera.

01:07:48   And you should-- its performance is good enough for us

01:07:53   to ship it, which means it's very good.

01:07:54   And so I think they just backed themselves

01:07:56   into a corner in how they talked about this camera,

01:08:00   because they want to tell you that the things that

01:08:02   are the most resonant, which are faster shutter speed,

01:08:07   captures more light, bigger sensor.

01:08:10   And that just gives you a bunch of expectations that aren't there.

01:08:14   And it's not their fault. When you hear bigger sensor, what you think of

01:08:18   is dramatic depth of field.

01:08:20   But it's still a tiny sensor in the grand scheme of things.

01:08:24   When you hear sensor shift, you're like, oh, I'll

01:08:26   be able to just shake my hand.

01:08:28   And it's like, yeah, maybe, but it's still the same.

01:08:30   What really comes down to-- and I think this

01:08:32   is where every camera company is guilty of this, not just Apple.

01:08:36   When they say it captures more light, that actually means something.

01:08:40   And what it means is it either has an enormous top end ISO,

01:08:46   and DSLRs are cruising their way to 200,000 ISO,

01:08:50   or it means at any given ISO, you get way less noise,

01:08:54   so the ISO is more usable.

01:08:56   You can't put that in an ad.

01:08:57   I think even Apple would not--

01:08:59   maybe Phil Schiller would have done that in a keynote,

01:09:02   because he was such a camera nerd.

01:09:04   But they're not going to do that, especially

01:09:05   with the infomercials that every company is making now.

01:09:07   They're not going to do a 30-second infomercial on ISO.

01:09:11   But it's really what it means.

01:09:12   It means that at any given ISO, it captures more light and less noise.

01:09:17   But then on top of it, there's Smart HDR 3.

01:09:19   And I was talking with Seb from Halide, and he was like,

01:09:23   they're still running Smart HDR 3 as though they're getting 12 Pro photos.

01:09:27   So the RAWs have less noise, but the final product,

01:09:30   they're still running the noise reduction in Smart HDR 3

01:09:33   kind of as aggressively.

01:09:35   And I think that's like--

01:09:37   you have two camera systems that are different.

01:09:39   You're running your software the same, and you're generating--

01:09:42   it's arriving at the same result, because it's not so much different.

01:09:45   And I think that's where something like ProRAW,

01:09:47   this new format they're going to ship, will let us really see the differences.

01:09:52   Yeah.

01:09:53   And I know that--

01:09:54   I worry that for some people who aren't photo nerds,

01:09:57   that their eyes start rolling back in their head

01:09:59   when they start hearing aperture and exposure times.

01:10:03   But it really is kind of simple.

01:10:04   And when you think back to the film era, you really could see it.

01:10:09   So the aperture is just the iris in front of the lens.

01:10:12   And when it's open more, it lets in more light.

01:10:15   And when it's a smaller circle, it lets in less light.

01:10:19   And that changes everything else.

01:10:23   The exposure time is how long are you taking the exposure for, right?

01:10:27   Is it 1/64 of a second or 1/200 of a second or a really slow one,

01:10:33   like a half a second?

01:10:35   Just let light hit the piece of film or the--

01:10:38   now it's a sensor, a digital sensor, for a half second.

01:10:42   And obviously, try to hold the camera as still as you can,

01:10:45   while that's happening.

01:10:46   Getting that exposure time shorter for a subject who is in motion,

01:10:51   like a toddler or a dog or something like that,

01:10:54   really has a large practical advantage.

01:10:57   Like, I took a lot of photos from people's mouths.

01:10:59   [LAUGHTER]

01:11:03   That's very true.

01:11:04   And what I saw as somebody who understands the way that those things

01:11:12   interplay-- and I am sort of a photo nerd.

01:11:15   And I was looking for things-- and you mentioned it in your review--

01:11:20   like depth of field.

01:11:21   Can you see, without going into portrait mode where it's fake,

01:11:24   do you get more of a bokeh effect just from this?

01:11:29   And I was like, I'm not seeing it.

01:11:31   But it's really not like a photo nerd thing.

01:11:33   It really is a very practical--

01:11:36   I'm just a person with a three-year-old.

01:11:39   And I pick up my phone when they're doing something funny or cute,

01:11:42   point it at them, frame it, and tap the button.

01:11:45   And if you get a better result because it is a much shorter exposure

01:11:51   and therefore captures the subject in motion without blur,

01:11:55   that's a practical reason to prefer the camera.

01:11:57   And you're getting better.

01:11:59   It really could be the difference between a keeper and a,

01:12:02   ah, that's no good at the start.

01:12:03   Yeah, and again, I come back to just how hard it is to do these reviews,

01:12:07   especially on mobile devices during the pandemic.

01:12:10   Before-- every other year I come on, and I'm like, we're both exhausted,

01:12:15   and iPhone season is complete.

01:12:16   And I always, I think, say to you something like,

01:12:20   it's so much fun to work with my entire team for this week.

01:12:24   Right?

01:12:24   Right?

01:12:25   [LAUGHTER]

01:12:25   And it's still true.

01:12:27   I mean, we have an amazing video team and copy editors and designers

01:12:31   who work on these reviews.

01:12:32   And it's great.

01:12:34   We did it as best we could remote.

01:12:35   But the thing that I missed the most was having the video team with me.

01:12:41   And then for the past several years, our video producer, Maria and I,

01:12:45   have just had photo shoots around New York City.

01:12:47   We just constructed things we wanted to test,

01:12:50   lighting situations we wanted to test.

01:12:52   And I would be like, Maria, go stand in front of this backlit window.

01:12:55   And we're going to see how all these phones do.

01:12:57   And I could not do that.

01:12:59   And I think, like most reviewers, I don't want

01:13:02   to put my kid in every review 50 times.

01:13:05   Like, there's-- for a million reasons, you don't want to do that.

01:13:07   So in the end, I was like, well, I guess these stuffed animals

01:13:11   are going to be the iPhone review this year.

01:13:12   I have no better choices.

01:13:14   And they don't move.

01:13:15   So I could-- that's like, well, it'd be great

01:13:18   if this stuffed animal would start moving.

01:13:20   But it's not going to do that for me.

01:13:21   So I think it was hard to communicate that value this time around because

01:13:27   of the conditions in which we were reviewing it.

01:13:29   And I think because it was hard to set that up and see it every time,

01:13:33   it was even then harder to communicate it to everyone.

01:13:36   Because you can write 1,000 words about how a camera works.

01:13:39   People just want to see the photos.

01:13:41   And in particular, what they look for in photos--

01:13:44   we've learned this after years, this--

01:13:46   they look for which photo is brighter.

01:13:47   That's the one I always think is better.

01:13:49   And then if you punch in and show them that one has more detail,

01:13:52   they say, no one zooms in on a photo.

01:13:54   So you have to do some work to convince people that this stuff matters.

01:13:59   And we were just limited with what I was generating to even show people.

01:14:04   I love this-- I'm going to quote from your review.

01:14:07   But I can't shake the feeling that the iPhone 12 Pro Max very much feels

01:14:12   like the perfect phone for the life I led before the pandemic.

01:14:17   I used to spend a lot of time commuting and on airplanes

01:14:19   and otherwise out and about getting work done on my phone.

01:14:22   I used to go to a lot of events at night and take a lot of photos in bars.

01:14:26   My notes indicate that I used to care a lot about mobile network speeds.

01:14:31   This phone would have made significant improvements to all those things.

01:14:35   But right now, it just feels like another screen

01:14:37   for social media on the couch.

01:14:39   And I could not help but feel the same way.

01:14:43   And I also wonder if my very positive feelings and reviews for the 12 mini

01:14:51   were biased by that.

01:14:53   Because to parlay this into a discussion of the opposite iPhone 12, the mini,

01:14:59   clearly battery life is the single biggest hit,

01:15:02   because it has a smaller battery.

01:15:04   And Apple's quoted numbers are all some percentage, 15% to 17% lower

01:15:11   than the regular iPhone 12.

01:15:13   And I'm using it, and I'm using the hell out of it during the election night

01:15:19   week.

01:15:20   I was on my 12 mini nonstop surfing news and updates and vote counts

01:15:26   and all this stuff.

01:15:27   And it's like, yeah, the battery went down.

01:15:29   And I could kind of see, just without even using a stopwatch or taking notes,

01:15:33   I was like, yeah, I'm not getting the battery life out of this

01:15:35   that I would get on the bigger ones.

01:15:37   But I was still in my living room and not far from,

01:15:41   oh, I could just plug this in while I go to the bathroom and then come out,

01:15:44   and it's got 10% more battery again.

01:15:47   And the things that would most stress an iPhone with limited battery life

01:15:57   are irrelevant when you're at home and the times when I would most

01:16:02   want the extra reach of a 2.5x telephoto lens or the better camera--

01:16:09   this ultimate best camera system you can get in an iPhone from the 12 Pro Max.

01:16:14   Well, I'm not leaving the house.

01:16:16   How many pictures of my wife and son during pandemic

01:16:20   are they going to even let me take?

01:16:22   Right?

01:16:22   It's--

01:16:23   This is just another place where I think having a toddler dramatically

01:16:25   changed my feeling with the camera.

01:16:27   Because I'm like, we take 400 photos of her a day until she tells us to stop.

01:16:31   Right.

01:16:32   We're not going to stop.

01:16:34   That's funny.

01:16:34   I have all these battery packs from when I did travel all the time,

01:16:37   all these USB batteries.

01:16:38   And now I just leave them.

01:16:39   They're just scattered on the couch all the time.

01:16:42   Because I'm just always charging the phone again.

01:16:44   And so my phones are all--

01:16:46   at home, they're more charged than ever before.

01:16:49   I really think that that line about mobile network speeds,

01:16:52   it's obviously a dig at 5G.

01:16:55   That's the one thing where every reviewer unanimously

01:17:00   was like, don't care about this.

01:17:03   Everyone stop caring about this.

01:17:04   First of all, you shouldn't be leaving the house.

01:17:06   Second of all, even if you do, it's not going to be great.

01:17:09   Third of all, when it is great on millimeter wave,

01:17:12   you take a huge hit to your battery.

01:17:15   I think that would have played out on the mini reviews very, very differently.

01:17:20   Because when you're not on Wi-Fi, that battery necessarily dies faster

01:17:24   with every cell network.

01:17:26   And chasing ultra wideband on the mini, because it

01:17:31   is one of the only small phones that has that radio, has that capability,

01:17:34   I think the only small phone that has capability, we would have seen,

01:17:38   oh, this battery cannot support this technology in a way

01:17:42   that you'd want to use it every day.

01:17:45   But--

01:17:45   Right.

01:17:46   Yeah, I don't know.

01:17:47   It's just--

01:17:47   It's a good question.

01:17:48   My 12 Pro, when I was using an ultra wideband,

01:17:50   I was like, oh, I'm ripping through this battery right now.

01:17:54   Like--

01:17:54   [LAUGHTER]

01:17:56   I've gotten-- I mean, I got over 2,000 gigabytes, gigabits per second.

01:18:03   I don't know what the-- whatever the measurement is in speed test.

01:18:06   And which is amazing.

01:18:07   It's absolutely amazing to get two gigabit wireless networking, period.

01:18:13   It's impressive to get two gigabit networking with a cable, right?

01:18:18   And it's like, you're doing it on a phone outdoors.

01:18:21   But practically speaking, my use case for it

01:18:24   was getting an impressive number in speed test.

01:18:28   I mean, what was I doing?

01:18:31   You know, but--

01:18:31   Yeah, I thought Joanna's review where she sat in the middle of MetLife Stadium

01:18:34   was one of her most inspired video reviews.

01:18:37   But yeah, I think when you talk about the Mini,

01:18:41   yeah, it feels like the perfect phone for this moment,

01:18:43   because people have wanted a small phone forever.

01:18:45   And so Apple is the master of just slowly creating demand,

01:18:49   then delivering you the perfect product.

01:18:51   And then you're not stressing it as much as you would if you were taking it out

01:18:57   into the world and commuting.

01:18:59   And maybe you don't even know that you're standing on the right street

01:19:02   corner in Manhattan and the ultra wide band is kicked on,

01:19:05   and now it's using more battery, right?

01:19:07   That is the nature of ultra wide band at this moment.

01:19:10   Just from corner to corner as you're walking around,

01:19:12   that modem's turning on and off.

01:19:14   And so no one has really had that experience yet.

01:19:16   And so I think there's just a lot of questions about that phone

01:19:21   in sort of the before time, and hopefully soon into next year

01:19:26   as this vaccine rolls out into what the next iteration of the world looks like.

01:19:29   But at this moment, yeah, if what you want

01:19:31   is a great second screen for the NFL to read Twitter on,

01:19:35   like the Mini seems perfect.

01:19:37   Whereas, like I said, every time I pick up the Pro Max,

01:19:39   I'm like, man, this thing is big.

01:19:42   I can't get used to it.

01:19:44   I mean, I don't want to.

01:19:45   But the other thing that you mentioned, and I have very strong feelings about it,

01:19:49   especially now that I've spent time with all four phones

01:19:51   and they've all settled in, is the flattening of the sides.

01:19:55   And I think it's really weird because I think definitely it looks cooler.

01:20:01   And this leaked out of the rumor mill a year in advance,

01:20:06   and so we were all sort of expecting it.

01:20:07   But I feel like everybody started expecting it

01:20:10   when the iPad Pros went to this flat side look that's sort of calling back

01:20:15   to the iPhone 4S and 5 era.

01:20:18   Because when the iPads came out, it was like, well,

01:20:21   why don't the phones have this?

01:20:22   This feels great.

01:20:23   I like this.

01:20:25   I think now that we have it, it's weird because I

01:20:28   think it's amazing with the Mini, right?

01:20:31   It really makes the Mini feel great.

01:20:33   I think the iPhone 12 and 12 Pro, it's OK with.

01:20:37   Although I feel like the difference between aluminum and stainless steel

01:20:42   in hand makes--

01:20:45   I just prefer if I just close my eyes and pick up these two phones that

01:20:49   are the same size, the 12 Pro and the 12, the aluminum 12

01:20:54   just feels so much nicer to me.

01:20:57   I mean, it's not shiny, so maybe you don't like the way it looks as much,

01:21:01   but it just has a nicer feel.

01:21:03   It's like the flat sides and the flat buttons

01:21:06   just feel sharp on the stainless steel in a way that's not pleasant to me.

01:21:11   But then with the 12 Pro Max, it's like the flat sides,

01:21:14   they just make it feel huge.

01:21:16   Gotti.

01:21:18   I don't know why.

01:21:19   I feel like it's the oddest thing.

01:21:23   And my wife still-- my wife had the 11 Pro Max from last year.

01:21:26   And it's not that much bigger of a device,

01:21:29   and it is kind of taller in the way that it is bigger.

01:21:33   But it somehow feels so much bigger because of the flat sides.

01:21:37   I don't get it.

01:21:39   It's like rounded corners make things nicer to hold.

01:21:42   So I disagree with you on the 12 Pro.

01:21:46   I have the blue one, Pacific Blue, is what I call it this year.

01:21:51   I think that is one of the most beautiful products Apple has ever made.

01:21:53   The stainless steel Pacific Blue iPhone 12 Pro.

01:21:56   It is-- I pulled it out of the box, and I slacked to the team,

01:22:01   like this thing is amazing.

01:22:02   And then everyone else was like, calm down.

01:22:04   I was gushing over it.

01:22:06   I know Dieter disagrees with me.

01:22:08   He thinks the matte aluminum regular 12 Pro is better.

01:22:12   Personal opinion, the joke in my 12 Pro review

01:22:14   were like, some of you are going to spend $200 because this is the shiny one,

01:22:17   and I'm with you.

01:22:19   That's who I am too.

01:22:21   The mini, right?

01:22:23   It's dense.

01:22:24   I think the flat sides make it feel dense and premium in a good way.

01:22:28   And then I have a gold 12 Pro Max.

01:22:32   So it's a white back with the gold sides.

01:22:34   And--

01:22:35   Yeah, that's my review.

01:22:37   I just think it looks--

01:22:38   it's like too big.

01:22:39   That's what I keep saying.

01:22:41   But the flat sides, they make it imposing in a way that my 11 Pro Max--

01:22:47   right?

01:22:49   In many ways, the 11 Pro Max basic shape is the same as the 8 Pro or the 6

01:22:54   Plus or whatever, right?

01:22:56   Here's a round rack with rounded sides.

01:22:59   The screen got bigger.

01:23:01   And that shape worked.

01:23:02   It's a little surf 40.

01:23:03   But it was nice to hold.

01:23:05   And I think the 12 Pro Max is not nice to hold.

01:23:09   I would never want to put the 12 Pro in a case.

01:23:11   I think it's just beautiful.

01:23:12   And I was sad when I put it into its case.

01:23:14   And the Apple Clear case this year especially

01:23:16   is horrible with that circle on the back.

01:23:19   Like, what are they doing?

01:23:20   I don't get it.

01:23:22   I really don't.

01:23:23   I feel like-- and I've shown it to other people.

01:23:27   And they're like, ah, no, it's all right.

01:23:28   I don't care.

01:23:29   And I'm like, well, no, wait.

01:23:30   Why is there a weird circle on the back?

01:23:32   I get it.

01:23:35   I kind of feel like the back story on that is that Apple had this team--

01:23:39   we should make a clear case, right?

01:23:41   I think Apple's case business is a weird subsection of Apple.

01:23:46   Because it seems to me anecdotally that most iPhone users--

01:23:50   everybody knows famously at least 95% of iPhone users

01:23:53   use a case of some sort.

01:23:56   It also seems to me, though, that of that 95% of people who use a case,

01:24:01   90% of them use a third party case.

01:24:05   Whether it's because they're cheaper or whether it's just to each their own

01:24:10   and it's a way to personalize it.

01:24:14   You meet 1,000 people, you might see 1,000 different cases.

01:24:17   It's a very personal thing.

01:24:21   But Apple still is very committed to it.

01:24:23   And I think they sell enough of them.

01:24:25   And they're expensive.

01:24:26   They're like $50 for the--

01:24:29   aren't the rubber ones like $50?

01:24:31   And the leather ones are--

01:24:33   I don't know what they are.

01:24:35   They're $80.

01:24:35   More expensive.

01:24:36   But they're-- yeah, something like that.

01:24:38   We did a story--

01:24:38   Ashley Carmen at the Bridge-- a story a long time ago

01:24:40   on the woman who is in charge of case designs

01:24:45   every year at the Verizon store.

01:24:46   So it's like a huge business for Verizon.

01:24:48   It's their single easiest upsell with every phone.

01:24:51   And so they try to get exclusive cases.

01:24:54   They think about case design trends.

01:24:56   It's like they're running a fashion business next to their phone business.

01:25:01   And there's obviously a person in charge of it.

01:25:03   That story-- it was one of those stories where she went and got it and came back.

01:25:07   And I was like, oh, shit.

01:25:08   I never even thought of that.

01:25:10   I'll send you a link.

01:25:11   We can put it in there.

01:25:12   But it's a huge business.

01:25:13   It's free money.

01:25:15   These cases cost cents to make.

01:25:17   And then they sell them for huge numbers.

01:25:19   And they were like, we're so proud of MagSafe.

01:25:22   We're putting a circle on the back of the clear one.

01:25:25   I don't know.

01:25:26   What I was getting at is I feel sad about putting the two smaller ones in a case.

01:25:31   And the Pro Max has to be in a case just to make it easier to hold.

01:25:35   And that is the sign that it's veering on the edge of too big.

01:25:40   It's already too big.

01:25:41   Yeah, see, where I think that the case thing is--

01:25:44   and Apple does good work with leather.

01:25:46   And the silicon-- to me, their silicon cases for $50

01:25:50   don't last long enough that everybody I know who uses the Apple silicone ones,

01:25:53   the corners rub away.

01:25:56   But in general, Apple's good with materials.

01:25:59   But famously, I've heard from people who like clear cases.

01:26:01   Clear cases tend to yellow.

01:26:03   You buy a third-party clear case, and you love it

01:26:06   because that's what you want, a clear case.

01:26:08   And then three months later, it's kind of yellow.

01:26:10   And six months later, it looks like you had it in a casino soaking up

01:26:15   nicotine smoke.

01:26:18   And I think Apple looked at this and thought, well, people want clear cases.

01:26:21   We're good with materials.

01:26:23   We can make a clear case that won't turn yellow over time.

01:26:26   And they have.

01:26:27   From what I've seen from daring Fireball readers who like the Apple clear case,

01:26:31   it doesn't yellow.

01:26:33   And they're like, so now we have this third type of case, right?

01:26:36   We had the rubber ones.

01:26:37   We had the leather ones.

01:26:38   And now we have clear ones.

01:26:40   And I think they were very proud of themselves for this.

01:26:42   I think maybe they sell well by Apple's case standards.

01:26:45   And then there's this other team making magnetic charging system.

01:26:51   And I feel like there must have been this meeting where it's like, hmm, huh.

01:26:57   Huh.

01:26:58   On the one hand, people are buying clear cases, and we make a really good one.

01:27:02   And on the other hand, we can't really sell a clear case that's clear and

01:27:07   magnetic.

01:27:09   And so they did this thing.

01:27:10   And it's almost like there's a Green Lantern logo on it.

01:27:12   I thought it was a power button.

01:27:14   I can't tell you what it is.

01:27:18   I don't know.

01:27:19   To me, I mean, it doesn't look bad.

01:27:21   And they made it centered around the Apple logo.

01:27:23   And it's strategically placed.

01:27:25   And if you were going to put a circle and a little line coming out of it,

01:27:31   it's as nice as it could be.

01:27:32   But it's not clear.

01:27:33   That's the thing, right?

01:27:36   So the little line, from what I understand, so MagSafe has the magnets in a circle.

01:27:40   And then it has the magnet underneath the circle for positioning.

01:27:45   So you click it on, and then that's the one that aligns it perfectly.

01:27:48   So that's why you need the line.

01:27:50   But man, I don't know.

01:27:52   Have you been using your MagSafe charger at all?

01:27:56   Yeah, I have it on my bedside.

01:27:58   I have mixed feelings about it the longer I go.

01:28:00   Like, there are places where I know I want one.

01:28:03   And on my bedside, probably isn't it.

01:28:07   And it's funny, because I am the person who has misplaced their phone,

01:28:13   misaligned it on a regular Qi charger, and then woken up in the morning

01:28:18   and it doesn't have a charge, or it's down to 20%,

01:28:22   because it wasn't getting a charge overnight.

01:28:24   And MagSafe does change that.

01:28:27   But the fact that you can't just lift it off is driving me nuts.

01:28:33   It's like I've traded one problem for an entirely different one,

01:28:36   and I don't know which problem I want to solve for.

01:28:38   So I do not have any idea why that cord is so short.

01:28:43   Because the problem it seems like it's solving--

01:28:45   this is very on-brand for me--

01:28:46   the problem that it seems like it's solving is Apple

01:28:48   doesn't want any ports on its phone.

01:28:50   So how do we make it charge fast when there's no Lightning port?

01:28:54   OK.

01:28:54   Well, what's a thing that a lot of people do every single day?

01:28:57   They get into bed, they plug in their phone,

01:29:00   and they use their phone in bed because their battery--

01:29:02   it's the end of the day, and the battery's almost dead.

01:29:03   But they want to charge it, but they want to keep it.

01:29:04   So OK, we made a thing that solves that problem.

01:29:07   Now we're going to give it a four-inch cord.

01:29:10   Like, what?

01:29:12   You actually haven't solved anyone's problems in any situation.

01:29:16   I'm on an airplane.

01:29:17   I plug that thing in the back of the seat rest.

01:29:19   It won't even hit the tray table.

01:29:21   So right.

01:29:23   Or if you're on Amtrak, one of the nice things about train travel

01:29:27   is that every seat has power.

01:29:29   But if you have the aisle seat, you're not close to it.

01:29:31   It's over by the window.

01:29:32   And now it's like--

01:29:33   It's so wise.

01:29:35   I have no idea why this cord is so short.

01:29:36   And then, like you said, there's a million places

01:29:39   where I want this thing to exist.

01:29:42   I desperately want a MagSafe car charger.

01:29:45   Like, I have a wireless charging.

01:29:48   I'm a sucker for them.

01:29:49   I buy every one on Instagram that I see.

01:29:51   It's a real problem.

01:29:52   The algorithm knows me.

01:29:54   I can see it.

01:29:55   I can envision it, how great it will be to get in my car

01:29:59   and clip the thing in and walk away.

01:30:01   It doesn't exist.

01:30:03   And it's such a huge miss to me that Apple invented this accessory

01:30:08   ecosystem where their own accessories seem a little confused

01:30:13   about what they're for.

01:30:14   And then third parties are not ready for this holiday season

01:30:17   with the most obvious accessories.

01:30:20   And I just--

01:30:21   Right.

01:30:21   I kind of don't--

01:30:21   There's knockoff mounts on Amazon.

01:30:24   And I'm like, how bad could it be?

01:30:26   It's just a magnet.

01:30:26   But I'm not quite ready to take that leap.

01:30:30   But I'm just like--

01:30:31   I think Apple's connector ecosystem ideas have never really taken off

01:30:36   the way that any rational person would have expected them to.

01:30:40   So to this day, there isn't some enormous ecosystem

01:30:44   of lightning accessories.

01:30:46   USBC, I think we could do another whole two hour episode on what

01:30:50   on earth has happened with USBC.

01:30:52   The smart connector on the iPad, there are virtually no keyboards

01:30:57   that use the smart connector for the iPad, which just boggles the mind.

01:31:01   Because Apple will tell you that's an open connector.

01:31:03   And I think MagSafe is--

01:31:05   it could be great, but history suggests it's

01:31:09   going to be a little confused, at least when people figure out what it's for.

01:31:12   And the length of that cord, that's the one that like--

01:31:16   yep, that's the sign that it's a little confused.

01:31:20   Right.

01:31:20   It's like I know why sometimes you want a shorter cord.

01:31:23   Because if you're going to use it in a scenario

01:31:27   where you know it's within three feet of the outlet,

01:31:31   then a one meter cord will reduce the need for cord clutter.

01:31:37   You don't have to cinch it up or something

01:31:39   or have it making weird loopty loops that you don't need.

01:31:44   But if it's the one and only size, it's way too short.

01:31:49   And I don't know.

01:31:50   Maybe it's because I'm not going anywhere.

01:31:51   But it just seems to me like bedside is a primary use case.

01:31:54   And then it's not heavy enough.

01:31:57   Yeah.

01:31:58   Well, if it were heavier, then maybe you could lift it off.

01:32:04   And it's like I've gotten good.

01:32:05   I've tried to explain to my wife, because I got her one for her phone too.

01:32:08   And it's like she's very annoyed by the fact that you can't just lift it off.

01:32:12   And I'm like, you kind of do it like an Oreo.

01:32:17   And the realm of doomed things that you have to say to your partner

01:32:21   about technology about them, how to hold it, and then saying like an Oreo

01:32:25   is like it's right below I changed how the remote for the TV works.

01:32:31   Well, I'm good at getting it.

01:32:34   Now, to be honest, I would be doing a disservice to the Newman's Own Company

01:32:38   if I don't mention my beloved Numinos, which are a superior Oreo style cookie.

01:32:44   But I do.

01:32:45   I enjoy a Numinos very much.

01:32:49   But I also do enjoy prying the top off and eating it in two pieces.

01:32:53   And I can do it with one hand.

01:32:55   And the way to do it is not by just prying it apart.

01:32:58   You do like a little push.

01:33:00   You push them apart.

01:33:03   I thought I had-- and it's like this is-- and I think I'm saying to my wife,

01:33:07   here's your advantage.

01:33:08   You get to live with John Gruber, and you get daring fireball style

01:33:13   content personalized for you.

01:33:16   And instead, she's like, why did you buy me?

01:33:18   I don't want to open an Oreo.

01:33:20   I just want to pick my phone off the table.

01:33:22   And I'm like, oh, well, that's a good point.

01:33:23   Yeah, the curse of the reviewer is to get brutally yanked into reality

01:33:29   every time you're like, do you like this?

01:33:32   And my wife is always like, I'm not using an app.

01:33:34   That's her answer to everything.

01:33:36   One of the reasons that we--

01:33:39   in the pandemic, I just keep buying smart home crap.

01:33:43   It's not useful or good.

01:33:45   So like, all right, here's another light switch

01:33:47   we can turn on with her voice.

01:33:48   That makes sense.

01:33:50   And I've realized that all of it has to be a home kit,

01:33:53   or Becky just won't use it.

01:33:56   If it's not in Control Center one swipe away, it might as well not--

01:33:59   I'm like, download this app.

01:34:01   And she's like, no.

01:34:03   That's the end of that conversation.

01:34:06   So the one and only smart home thing that I've ever

01:34:10   done that's really been a hit in this house with people other than me

01:34:15   is getting the Christmas tree lights onto a smart switch.

01:34:19   And that's a game changer, because the old way of getting Christmas tree

01:34:24   lights is somebody's got to get behind the tree.

01:34:26   Or you had one of those big round mechanical timers,

01:34:28   as my dad always had.

01:34:29   Yeah.

01:34:29   Yeah.

01:34:30   Yeah, it's never been good.

01:34:32   And now being able to tell one of your smart assistants to do it

01:34:35   and have it work--

01:34:36   It did take-- it took about three years for that

01:34:40   to really lock into where it worked all the time, which

01:34:43   I think is a very funny state of the tech industry story.

01:34:47   But it took three years of iterative work

01:34:49   from three of the smartest, most advanced companies in the world

01:34:52   for Turn on the Lights to always work.

01:34:55   Because the first year I set it up, I distinctly

01:34:59   remember being told, why would I do it when it doesn't work?

01:35:02   And being laughed at, because I was screaming,

01:35:04   turn on the lights over and over again.

01:35:06   This year, I think they've all--

01:35:09   I've only tried it with Google and Siri,

01:35:10   but it works every time this time.

01:35:12   Well, to me, it's one of the great causes

01:35:20   for the second half of my career is non-deterministic errors

01:35:26   in computing.

01:35:27   It used to be that if something went wrong

01:35:29   and we would complain endlessly that, oh, look

01:35:31   at this terrible error message.

01:35:33   It gave me a negative 1438 error.

01:35:36   Well, that's useless.

01:35:37   And the complaint was error messages should be humanized.

01:35:42   And instead of just reporting an error code,

01:35:44   you should know what the error code is and put it

01:35:46   in the human readable form, blah, blah, blah.

01:35:49   Well, who knew that that was the good old days,

01:35:51   because you at least had something to search for,

01:35:54   that you could search for 1438.

01:35:57   And then maybe you'd find an answer.

01:36:00   Now, when stuff-- you think it's going to work,

01:36:02   and you say to your device to just blah, blah, blah,

01:36:05   and it used to work.

01:36:08   You know, we have a thing-- we have shades.

01:36:10   We have smart shades.

01:36:11   And I love them, because we have a lot of windows.

01:36:13   And so we move the shades up and down a lot more than we would

01:36:17   if we had to do it physically.

01:36:19   But I had a thing in the home app, open main floor shades.

01:36:24   And at the end of the day, you could

01:36:26   say close main floor shades.

01:36:28   And it closes and opens all the shades

01:36:31   on our main floor of our house.

01:36:33   And I love it.

01:36:34   And then all of a sudden--

01:36:36   I thought it was because I had the HomePod Mini.

01:36:38   At some point in iOS 13--

01:36:41   or what are we at, 14?

01:36:43   At some point about six weeks ago, it stopped working.

01:36:46   And it was like my setting--

01:36:50   but it didn't say to me why it wouldn't work.

01:36:53   And I changed the name of it from open main floor shades

01:36:57   to just open main shades, and then it worked again.

01:37:02   I had to take out the word floor.

01:37:04   And so I guess what was happening

01:37:07   was that even though I had a setting named

01:37:09   open main floor shades, it was--

01:37:12   before interpreted it as a saved setting name,

01:37:16   it was trying to be smart about it and figure out,

01:37:19   oh, he wants all the shades on the main floor to be open.

01:37:22   And it's like, no, no, you don't have to be smart.

01:37:24   I already made a thing with this name, just do it.

01:37:29   But it wouldn't tell me why it stopped working.

01:37:31   That was the thing that drove me nuts.

01:37:33   The fact that it stopped working was bad enough.

01:37:35   But it was the fact that it wasn't like,

01:37:38   this isn't working because you have

01:37:40   a conflict with a named thing.

01:37:42   That would have told me everything.

01:37:43   I had to backwards engineer it.

01:37:46   And then I tried renaming it last week back to where it was.

01:37:49   My favorite general home kit troubleshooting--

01:37:53   this is exactly what you're talking about--

01:37:55   is oftentimes the answer to a home kit automation

01:37:58   going sideways.

01:38:00   The best answer is to restart your Apple TV.

01:38:02   Right?

01:38:06   None of that makes sense unless you are aware of the fact

01:38:10   that the automations are running in a local process

01:38:13   on your Apple TV, which is your hub,

01:38:16   and is controlling this entire system.

01:38:18   But it's completely invisible to you.

01:38:20   And it never tells you that this is the problem.

01:38:22   It's just suddenly when you open the garage door,

01:38:24   the light doesn't come on anymore.

01:38:26   And the answer, bizarrely, is to restart your TV.

01:38:31   And it's like, all of that should be a lot more direct,

01:38:36   or at least communicated to you that, hey,

01:38:38   this thing under your TV is a computer.

01:38:40   It's actually the server.

01:38:41   It's the master server control server for your home.

01:38:46   And right now it's confused.

01:38:47   And can you please stop watching Netflix

01:38:49   so the garage door works again?

01:38:50   Like, you know, I think that's a much better--

01:38:54   you know, the three-year process to turn on the Christmas lights

01:38:57   working better is every company and every device maker

01:39:01   realizing that sending a light switch command to a cloud

01:39:05   to talk to another cloud--

01:39:06   like, everyone knows that's bad.

01:39:08   So all of it has moved local.

01:39:10   All three of the major home platforms

01:39:13   are now way more local in that way.

01:39:15   But that means that there are now computers in your house

01:39:17   that are like--

01:39:19   they're computers.

01:39:20   They're brittle.

01:39:20   They're brittle in exactly the ways you would expect.

01:39:22   And sometimes you just have to restart the Apple TV

01:39:25   to make the lights work again.

01:39:26   And it's like, well, some problems are eternal.

01:39:29   You know, like, this computer got confused,

01:39:31   and we're just going to unplug it and plug it back in.

01:39:34   It's one of those things where I just love sometimes--

01:39:37   it's endlessly fascinating to me to think about what

01:39:40   would I love to tell myself 25 years ago if I had an hour

01:39:45   to just explain 2020's technology to my night.

01:39:49   Or-- but if you imagine going back to somebody in the mid

01:39:52   '90s and explaining to them that if you explained that you could

01:39:56   have a very powerful Unix computer running

01:39:59   in your pocket at all times with a touchscreen interface,

01:40:01   you'd be like, oh, my god, that's amazing.

01:40:03   I can't wait.

01:40:03   That'd be-- that sounds great, right?

01:40:05   That sounds like-- that's where the future should be.

01:40:07   If you explain to them that you'll

01:40:09   be issuing commands over a network in your home,

01:40:12   and they're going to leave your home

01:40:14   and go to a data center somewhere--

01:40:16   and you don't know where, but it's probably--

01:40:20   could be across the continent.

01:40:22   And then that's where the command will be parsed

01:40:26   and will be--

01:40:28   do some computing.

01:40:29   And then they'll send a signal back to your home,

01:40:32   and then it'll do the thing that you said to do,

01:40:34   which is directing a command at a light bulb that

01:40:38   is three feet away from you.

01:40:40   And you'd say, no, you're making that up.

01:40:42   Yeah.

01:40:43   There you'd be like, that makes no sense.

01:40:45   Why wouldn't you just send the command right to the light

01:40:47   bulb?

01:40:48   25 years ago, you'd say, that makes no sense at all.

01:40:51   Yeah, and somewhere in that chain--

01:40:52   And then you'd say, no, that's--

01:40:53   But somewhere in that chain, any one of these companies

01:40:56   might send a recording in your voice to a person

01:40:58   and make sure they got it right.

01:41:00   Right?

01:41:02   OK.

01:41:03   Now I'm just turning the knob to see

01:41:05   when you're going to stop believing me

01:41:06   that I'm telling the truth.

01:41:08   All right, let me take a break here.

01:41:10   Thank our third and final sponsor, our good friends

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01:41:12   Look, I'll make this short.

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01:42:42   All right, let's do recommendations.

01:42:44   This is what people want to know from me,

01:42:46   and I feel like I haven't given them an answer yet.

01:42:48   And this podcast is where I'm going to.

01:42:50   What iPhones would you buy right now

01:42:53   if you had to buy an iPhone 12 to use for the next year?

01:42:57   I'd buy the Pro Max.

01:42:58   And solely, my hesitation with the size

01:43:00   aside, solely because I do have a toddler

01:43:02   and we take a million photos of her.

01:43:05   And I don't want to get too caught up in the current next,

01:43:10   let's say, three, four months of pandemic winter.

01:43:14   It's very, very good chance that at some point in 2021,

01:43:18   we're gonna go places again and take pictures.

01:43:22   I think for me, I'm not saying I would recommend it

01:43:25   to others, but for me personally, I am on the cusp

01:43:27   of buying myself an iPhone 12 with no adjectives.

01:43:31   And just say goodbye to the third camera lens.

01:43:35   I'm okay with it.

01:43:36   - You're like a real camera person, right?

01:43:39   You have like a-- - I am.

01:43:41   Well, I used to.

01:43:42   I haven't bought it, that's the thing.

01:43:44   And that's part of my thinking is,

01:43:47   part of my thinking is, you know what?

01:43:48   I should stop pretending that my iPhone is my only camera.

01:43:52   And this is what I'm thinking, is that at some point,

01:43:57   but I'm gonna wait because why not wait?

01:43:59   I'm not going anywhere.

01:44:00   But as soon as it seems like I'm on the cusp of,

01:44:02   quarantine is over, we can start traveling again.

01:44:05   I'm getting myself a nice new camera, a camera camera,

01:44:09   because I should, I haven't bought one in a couple years.

01:44:12   I think the last one I bought was my Fuji X100S.

01:44:16   And the X100S is, I don't know, five, six years old.

01:44:19   I haven't bought a camera in like five years.

01:44:21   So I feel like I'm in for a nice surprise

01:44:23   having waited so long between buying camera cameras.

01:44:26   And I'm just gonna stop pretending that the,

01:44:31   quote unquote, telephoto lens on an iPhone

01:44:34   is actually all that good of a camera.

01:44:36   - Yeah, by the way, on the Pro Max,

01:44:37   it is like especially not that good of a camera.

01:44:40   - Yeah, that's, and that was, that is,

01:44:42   I'm glad you brought that up,

01:44:43   because that was one of the head scratchers to me.

01:44:46   It's like, okay, now it's a 2.5X instead of 2.0,

01:44:49   and that sounds better

01:44:51   'cause you're getting more reach, right?

01:44:55   But it's also a little slower,

01:44:57   and it's like, isn't that gonna be noisier?

01:45:00   And then your photos in particular,

01:45:02   I think that was the one where you took a picture

01:45:04   of a pickup truck, and it was like, yeah, it's noisy.

01:45:07   - Yeah, and that's just like me

01:45:10   standing on my upstairs deck,

01:45:11   shooting down in the driveway.

01:45:12   Like, if you were doing what people want to do

01:45:15   with telephotos, which I'm always told

01:45:18   is why the telephotos sell well,

01:45:20   you're shooting your kids' play,

01:45:22   that seems to be the thing.

01:45:24   Like, you're gonna be so disappointed

01:45:25   by having a slower lens,

01:45:27   and then same app that you're talking about,

01:45:29   longer exposure times.

01:45:30   So definitely in a kid's play, people are moving around.

01:45:33   So it just seems like the weirdest trade-off to me.

01:45:36   I don't, I would say I think portrait mode

01:45:40   is better on these phones, where I always use the 1X lens.

01:45:42   All this little stuff where it's,

01:45:44   yeah, the camera's better, but you know what?

01:45:46   Like, I have a Sony RX100, it's great.

01:45:48   Every photo I ever take with that camera

01:45:51   and like do the slightest amount of work in Lightroom

01:45:53   and put it in Instagram, people ask me what camera I use.

01:45:56   And it's like, oh, it's a very accessible camera for anyone.

01:45:59   Not to mention the collection of now ancient Nikon DSLRs

01:46:04   that float around this house.

01:46:05   Like, when I actually use one of those,

01:46:07   people like, people love this, my parents love those photos.

01:46:11   Not that I think anybody should carry around

01:46:12   a gigantic Nikon DSLR all the time, but it's great.

01:46:16   But I'm saying this well for a max,

01:46:17   'cause we're always in a situation

01:46:19   where we want to take a photo quickly,

01:46:20   and I value those photos being really good,

01:46:22   because we're gonna look at them forever.

01:46:25   But just walking around, like, I actually get,

01:46:28   I get more value out of, I took a photo with a camera,

01:46:31   I came back and made it look the way I want.

01:46:33   - Yeah, so I'm just not worried

01:46:35   about that missing third lens.

01:46:37   I will miss it, I'm not saying I haven't used it,

01:46:39   and I did the thing where you can go

01:46:41   into the Photos app on the Mac and say,

01:46:43   set up a smart album with any, meets any of these criteria,

01:46:48   and the lens matches, you know, six millimeters

01:46:52   is I think the size of the actual size

01:46:55   of the telephoto lens on the iPhone 11 and 11 Pro, et cetera.

01:47:00   And yeah, I've taken a bunch of photos

01:47:02   that I used that lens, and it's like,

01:47:05   yeah, I guess if I shot it with the regular 1X lens

01:47:08   and just cropped, it wouldn't be quite as nice.

01:47:12   But there were like almost none of those photos

01:47:15   where I was like, oh, it would break my heart

01:47:17   if I couldn't have gotten this.

01:47:19   - Whereas the ultra wide is like the least good camera,

01:47:22   and I'm always like, these are the funnest pictures

01:47:23   I've taken.

01:47:24   - And it's, you can't fake it, right?

01:47:27   So if you take a 1X lens and just crop to the center,

01:47:31   and you go from like a six megapixel image to a,

01:47:35   or a 12 megapixel image to a six millimeter

01:47:38   or megapixel crop of the center, and zoom it up,

01:47:42   it'll look fine on the phone, it's not gonna look big,

01:47:45   good on a big screen, it's not gonna look good

01:47:48   if you print it real big.

01:47:50   But like you said, nobody's, apparently nobody

01:47:53   zooms in anymore.

01:47:54   But there's no way to fake that extra,

01:47:59   that 0.5X ultra wide form factor.

01:48:03   It really isn't.

01:48:04   And back in the days when we would be able to go places

01:48:08   indoors and see people, it's like, it's amazing,

01:48:11   it's kind of fun how you can get like,

01:48:13   oh, you can get the whole table in the shot.

01:48:15   - Yeah.

01:48:16   Yeah, and there's also, no one is buying those lenses

01:48:19   for their real cameras, right?

01:48:21   Like, those are, they look weird,

01:48:24   Apple's done some stuff this year to correct distortion,

01:48:26   which is, I think, great.

01:48:28   But no one's walking around with a fisheye lens all the time.

01:48:32   And like, that's kind of what you're getting.

01:48:34   And I think there's a reason Apple went with the ultra wide

01:48:37   on all of the phones, because it's the one where

01:48:41   I think people use it the most compared to the tele.

01:48:45   It is just the worst camera on the phone,

01:48:48   just like on a technical level.

01:48:49   But I think the value of what you can make with it

01:48:52   far outweighs whether or not it's a little grainy

01:48:55   or whatever.

01:48:56   - Yeah.

01:48:57   So you use portrait mode on the phone?

01:49:00   - So I have long been anti-portrait mode,

01:49:03   and with this phone in particular,

01:49:05   I've started using it more.

01:49:07   - I'm a little anti, it's like,

01:49:10   I feel like I feel the way about portrait mode on iPhones,

01:49:13   the way I feel about the touch bar,

01:49:14   where it's like, I'm known for, you know,

01:49:17   like my career is having very strong opinions

01:49:21   about these things.

01:49:22   And yet, somehow I'm kind of ambivalent about the touch bar.

01:49:26   I really am.

01:49:27   And now that I've been using it,

01:49:28   I've been really, really poking at it

01:49:31   the last couple of weeks using this M1 MacBook Pro.

01:49:35   And I'm like, eh, I still feel meh.

01:49:37   It's like, eh.

01:49:38   - No, I've come to actively dislike it.

01:49:40   - I know, and I read your review, and I know you did,

01:49:43   and I can see why some people do.

01:49:45   I really feel like, for me personally,

01:49:49   they solved all of my dislike of it

01:49:53   by just moving it away from the delete key a little bit

01:49:56   and adding a physical escape key.

01:49:58   And it's like, yeah, all right.

01:49:59   Now it's like, I don't hate it.

01:50:01   I wish it had haptics.

01:50:03   I wish that, I feel like they could,

01:50:05   I feel like for something that they know people,

01:50:08   some people really hate,

01:50:11   they haven't really changed it at all.

01:50:13   Like the only way they've really changed it

01:50:15   since we first saw it was to make it shorter

01:50:18   on the escape key side to add an escape key.

01:50:21   - Yeah, to make it do less.

01:50:23   - Yeah, so they just said, okay,

01:50:25   it's no good at being a fake escape key.

01:50:27   So we'll put the escape, all right, you got us.

01:50:29   The escape key should be a real key.

01:50:32   And then otherwise, what is the difference

01:50:34   between the touch bar right now

01:50:36   on the brand new Rave Review M1 MacBooks

01:50:40   than the one we first saw?

01:50:41   Nothing.

01:50:42   And it's like, why not have haptics or something

01:50:45   so you can reach up and feel the volume key or something?

01:50:49   Yeah, I don't know.

01:50:50   But I don't have strong opinions on it.

01:50:52   Portrait mode, same way.

01:50:53   I've taken some and I've gotten some shots

01:50:56   from like, ah, especially when you're without pinching

01:50:59   to zoom and you just look at it on the phone,

01:51:01   it's like, yeah, that looks like a credible sort

01:51:04   of portrait style bokeh background photography.

01:51:07   But I don't love it.

01:51:08   And then every once in a while,

01:51:09   you get one with a real boner and like,

01:51:12   oh, geez, look what it did to this person's glasses.

01:51:14   Oh, it's just, it's like wrecked.

01:51:17   And then I'm like, ah, I'm not using that anymore.

01:51:19   But I don't hate it.

01:51:21   The way I feel about it is the way I felt.

01:51:24   And the way I felt about digital photography period

01:51:29   in like the late '90s, maybe around the year 2000,

01:51:33   it's like, oh, I see, this is going to be the future.

01:51:37   I'll just keep shooting film for now.

01:51:39   - I mean, so what I do is I would just,

01:51:43   and thinking about it, I always take 'em both.

01:51:45   I'll shoot the photo, the regular photo the regular way,

01:51:48   just to make sure I have it.

01:51:50   And then I switch to portrait mode

01:51:51   and like screw with it a little more.

01:51:53   And I think on this phone, this is where every year

01:51:57   I'm like the processor and the phone doesn't matter.

01:51:59   It's so fast.

01:52:00   Like all you're really buying is three years of headroom.

01:52:03   But I think in some cases, portrait mode being one of them,

01:52:06   the A14 makes it faster and makes it funner to use

01:52:10   because it's faster.

01:52:11   And so like I'm using it more.

01:52:14   I'm not saying that I'm in love with the photos,

01:52:16   but definitely I'm at the point where it's worth

01:52:19   messing around with because it doesn't carry that,

01:52:22   you know, with the iPhone 7 when it first came out,

01:52:24   you would like push it.

01:52:26   It would take a while to think,

01:52:27   and you're already on to wanting to take the next photo,

01:52:30   and then you'd get like this weird cutout.

01:52:32   Like all of that has been ripped away.

01:52:35   Like they fixed it.

01:52:36   And now you're at a place where,

01:52:38   yeah, I'll try to take a couple, just see what happens.

01:52:39   And I think that's a big,

01:52:41   it's an inflection point for these.

01:52:43   And then sometimes it does a great job.

01:52:45   Not all the time, but sometimes it does like a terrific job.

01:52:47   And I think that's really impressive.

01:52:50   - Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about it.

01:52:52   But I don't like-- - Can I complain about

01:52:53   the touch bar?

01:52:54   Can we go back to complaining?

01:52:54   'Cause I'm all cute out, yeah.

01:52:56   I'm all raring to go. - All right, all right.

01:52:58   - So here's my theory.

01:53:00   No one at Apple is left-handed/has big hands.

01:53:05   Every time you open a web browser with the touch bar,

01:53:07   it puts the back button at the top left.

01:53:10   And if you're left-handed like I am,

01:53:12   you're pinky, and you're like, and you're weird,

01:53:14   you know, like I didn't learn how to touch that,

01:53:16   but I just figured it out.

01:53:17   So like my hands are all over the keyboard.

01:53:19   I hit the back button in every web browser by accident

01:53:22   on every touch bar Mac 500 times a day.

01:53:24   I've had to install better touch tool.

01:53:26   I've like disabled the whole thing

01:53:28   because it's not a button.

01:53:30   So on a regular keyboard, I just put my hands in there

01:53:32   and like I do things on purpose.

01:53:34   With the touch bar,

01:53:35   I'm always just accidentally touching things,

01:53:37   which is the opposite of what you want.

01:53:39   And I can't extrapolate that experience to everyone,

01:53:44   but I can certainly say,

01:53:45   oh, this thing personally frustrates me all the time

01:53:47   such that I dinged you another 0.5 in this review

01:53:50   because you won't explain to me

01:53:51   what the value of it is supposed to be.

01:53:54   I just feel it's just, I don't know.

01:53:58   I guess the reason I don't have the hatred

01:54:00   some people have is I just never touch it accidentally.

01:54:02   - 'Cause you're right handed.

01:54:03   - Well, maybe.

01:54:04   - 'Cause they put all the stuff

01:54:05   that you can touch by accident in the right.

01:54:08   - But they're still crazy to me.

01:54:10   I'm more frustrated.

01:54:12   Like some people like you obviously have outright hate

01:54:15   for it, Ben Thompson, same way.

01:54:17   Ben Thompson will go out of his way to get,

01:54:20   like it could do, you know,

01:54:22   there is no doubt that he's gonna get the MacBook Air

01:54:24   because he wants it to,

01:54:26   he'd pay more to get the buttons

01:54:28   than to get the touch bar, right?

01:54:30   I know other people feel that way.

01:54:32   I don't, but I still, it's like I hardly ever use it.

01:54:35   You know, and it's like some of the stuff--

01:54:36   - You don't change the volume on your Mac?

01:54:39   - Well, I do change the volume.

01:54:41   And I like changing the volume

01:54:42   where you can just press it and then slide your finger.

01:54:45   But a lot of the application specific stuff I don't use.

01:54:49   Like I noticed the other day,

01:54:52   it was actually when I was doing the thing,

01:54:54   I told you where I set up a smart album to say,

01:54:56   let me just look at all the photos I took

01:54:58   with the telephoto lens on my previous iPhones

01:55:01   before I actually commit to using the phone

01:55:04   without it for a year.

01:55:06   And I noticed that Photos puts the thumbnails

01:55:10   in the touch bar, but they're so tight.

01:55:13   Like what, what?

01:55:14   (Ben laughing)

01:55:16   And it's like a cool demo.

01:55:18   It's like you can put your finger on them

01:55:19   and slide it across.

01:55:20   And it's like you're going through thumbnails.

01:55:22   But it was like, well, when would I ever use this?

01:55:25   You know what I mean?

01:55:26   Like there's just so many apps where if you start,

01:55:29   I start looking at it, I'm like,

01:55:30   well, what does this app put in the touch bar?

01:55:32   And it's like, oh, well, well, that's interesting.

01:55:36   I'll never use it.

01:55:37   It's like my touch bar could stop working

01:55:39   except for brightness and volume.

01:55:40   And I would never notice.

01:55:44   - Yeah, I know we got to portrait mode,

01:55:46   but once you get me going on the touch bar,

01:55:48   I can't stop.

01:55:49   It's really, I'm like dying to know,

01:55:51   like do people who are,

01:55:52   'cause if you're left-handed,

01:55:53   you often have your dominant hand

01:55:56   like slightly higher than the other one.

01:55:57   And I push back in a web browser using the touch bar Mac

01:56:01   so many times a day.

01:56:02   - I don't even know, where is the back button?

01:56:04   Is it over there next to escape?

01:56:06   - Yeah, it's the default place for both Safari and Chrome.

01:56:09   And it is the single most irritating thing

01:56:11   that can happen to you when you're using a computer

01:56:13   is to be looking at something and have it just go away.

01:56:15   - Well, can't you turn it off?

01:56:17   Can't you just go--

01:56:18   - Yeah, so I've had to effectively disable the whole thing.

01:56:20   - Yeah.

01:56:21   - Because if you have it on at a system level,

01:56:23   every app will show you those things

01:56:25   and you can't turn it off per app.

01:56:27   - Yeah.

01:56:28   Hopefully it's one of those things,

01:56:31   I guess it corresponds to the,

01:56:35   as a thing that hasn't really physically changed

01:56:39   in a long time, it's up there with the webcam

01:56:42   where, well, okay, they can get people to upgrade

01:56:44   just if they say, here, now it's the M2 MacBooks

01:56:49   have a better webcam and somehow we've done something better

01:56:53   with the touch bar.

01:56:54   'Cause I don't think they're going away with it.

01:56:56   You know, like I don't think they're gonna go back

01:56:58   and just give everybody buttons,

01:56:59   but I feel like they need,

01:57:02   it just needs to be taken to the next level.

01:57:04   Haptics or something, right?

01:57:07   - Dieter's theory is that to get a better webcam,

01:57:10   you probably need a thicker screen lid.

01:57:13   Once you get a thicker screen lid,

01:57:14   you can stick a touch controller in there.

01:57:16   It all comes back to the most obvious thing

01:57:18   you can do to a Mac to make it feel like

01:57:20   the next generation of itself.

01:57:22   - Yeah, well, I do think that, you know,

01:57:24   I mean, a touch controller has to increase the thickness

01:57:28   to some degree.

01:57:30   - Yeah, but if you're gonna make that,

01:57:31   if you're gonna do it for the webcam,

01:57:34   you might as well get something else out of that space.

01:57:36   - Right.

01:57:37   Well, and the other way to do it with the webcam

01:57:38   would be to make a camera bump, which is like,

01:57:41   well, you laugh.

01:57:44   You laugh, but if, it's like, they slow-boiled us.

01:57:48   We're all slow-boiling frogs with the camera bumps

01:57:51   on our phones, 'cause I mean, and you guys had, like,

01:57:55   I think the best coverage of it.

01:57:56   When they first came out with the camera bump

01:57:58   on the iPhone 6, and they had like some marketing shots

01:58:02   from the side that didn't show a camera bump.

01:58:06   I remember the Verge specifically was like, whoa, whoa.

01:58:09   They're showing this from the one side,

01:58:11   and if you look at an iPhone 6 from that side,

01:58:14   it has a, you can see the camera bump,

01:58:16   and it's like, can you believe we wrote all that

01:58:19   about the camera bump on the iPhone 6, which is like,

01:58:23   I don't know, it's like a hangnail.

01:58:25   - Yeah.

01:58:25   - I mean, you laugh at the idea of a camera bump

01:58:30   on the back of a MacBook, but I don't know.

01:58:33   We're not laughing about our phone bumps anymore.

01:58:36   - Yeah, but the bump on a,

01:58:37   I've thought about this way more than I should.

01:58:40   The bump on a phone camera is the camera, right?

01:58:43   It's facing the right direction, whereas on a MacBook,

01:58:46   they would never put it on the inside.

01:58:48   - No, it would have to be on the back.

01:58:49   - So you would just have a, like a thing on the back.

01:58:52   Which would be crazy.

01:58:54   - Just like a big swollen.

01:58:57   - Yeah, I mean, look, there's a camera bump

01:58:59   on the back of the iPad.

01:59:00   It works just fine in laptop mode, but it's facing out.

01:59:02   - Be like a little camera, like a camera beer belly.

01:59:05   (laughing)

01:59:07   That's what they should call it.

01:59:08   - Jaws if you're listening.

01:59:10   - I mean, that's to me, this is true on the iPhone too.

01:59:13   Apple's selfie cameras, the ones that face you,

01:59:16   are by far their worst.

01:59:18   Also by far the most used.

01:59:21   - Yeah.

01:59:21   - And that's, if there's a place across the entire lineup

01:59:24   where you could say you could definitely,

01:59:26   well, maybe I don't know if they're the most used

01:59:27   on an iPad, but certainly in the age of Zoom

01:59:30   that you're using that camera on a MacBook all the time.

01:59:33   And then, I mean, what is all of TikTok, right?

01:59:36   It's just front facing camera videos.

01:59:39   And it's bizarre that it's the place where there seems

01:59:41   to be the least amount of investment.

01:59:43   Whereas on the back, they're like,

01:59:44   "This year we've added 40 lenses.

01:59:46   "They have five different minute spec variations,

01:59:49   "and you're gonna take this many pictures

01:59:51   "of a sunset to find them."

01:59:52   And then the front, it's like,

01:59:53   it's the same one from two years ago.

01:59:55   - I salute, I've never seen one that I wanted to buy,

01:59:59   but I salute all those Android handset makers

02:00:02   making oddball high-end Android phones

02:00:04   where they have some kind of thing,

02:00:06   like maybe like a camera that flips around

02:00:09   so that the back facing camera

02:00:10   can also be the self-facing camera.

02:00:13   'Cause philosophically, it seems crazy

02:00:16   that you've got a vastly, vastly better camera

02:00:20   pointing back, and yet a lot of times

02:00:23   you want to take a picture forward

02:00:26   and there's no good solution, right?

02:00:28   It's like you have the camera right there.

02:00:31   You want to use it.

02:00:32   Like you said, there's people just shooting tons and tons

02:00:34   of it on social media.

02:00:37   And yet there's no good answer for it, I don't know.

02:00:40   - Flip phones, I mean, it's like they'll make the flip phone

02:00:44   and then you'll just have the one camera.

02:00:45   Like I think Asus makes the one

02:00:47   where the camera actually swivels on a motor.

02:00:49   There's one where there's a periscope that comes up.

02:00:52   That stuff is fun, all of it seems doomed to break.

02:00:54   - Yeah, that's exactly what I think.

02:00:56   I'm like, I feel like everything that moves

02:01:00   is doomed to break, and the last thing you want in there,

02:01:03   you know, if it's just a volume button,

02:01:04   it's like, okay, you just click it,

02:01:06   but if it's like a whole camera system, forget it.

02:01:08   - Yes, like how many cameras of these Sony RX100s

02:01:12   where I've just knocked the lens out of alignment,

02:01:14   I'm like, well, there goes another one.

02:01:16   Yeah, it's just like, you can't do that with your phone.

02:01:18   - Yeah, well, anyway, I feel like that's a wrap.

02:01:22   I appreciate it.

02:01:23   It's always good to talk to you after review season.

02:01:25   - It was good that we didn't have the usual exhausted,

02:01:30   I can't believe we got through that again.

02:01:31   We had a little space this time.

02:01:33   - Yeah, I know.

02:01:35   We'll see, next year, maybe it'll be back to normal.

02:01:37   - Hopefully.

02:01:38   - Yeah.

02:01:39   Hey, we have a new podcast to promote.

02:01:41   You have a new podcast.

02:01:44   Not me, you, Decoder, right?

02:01:46   - Decoder, yeah, so as you, listeners may know,

02:01:51   Kara Swisher hosted Recode Decode for a long time.

02:01:53   She still hosts Pivot for our company,

02:01:56   but she's on to the time, she's on the show.

02:01:58   We've relaunched Recode Decode as Decoder with me

02:02:03   on the feed, so if you're subscribed to Recode Decode,

02:02:05   you're already subscribed.

02:02:06   If not, go subscribe to Decoder.

02:02:08   Interview show, we're aiming for CEOs

02:02:11   and other people who make decisions at companies.

02:02:14   I'm really interested in, everything is a trade-off.

02:02:17   Basically what you and I have talked about for two hours now

02:02:19   is trade-offs, right, and how we make products,

02:02:21   how we sell them, what we use them for.

02:02:23   I really wanna get in that, people.

02:02:25   So, first episode is Mark Cuban, extremely fun.

02:02:29   I just let him talk about whatever he wanted to talk about.

02:02:31   Sal Khan from Khan Academy, trade-offs

02:02:34   of just online learning.

02:02:36   Xbox, Phil Spencer, I mentioned that,

02:02:38   and then next week, Shelley, this is coming out tonight.

02:02:42   So, by the time this comes out, Shelley Taylor,

02:02:46   who's the CEO of Alamo Draft Test Theaters,

02:02:49   gonna talk to me about how we're reopening theaters

02:02:52   in the time of COVID.

02:02:53   So, we're trying really hard to keep up the spirit

02:02:57   of Recode Decode while expanding into sort of the larger,

02:03:01   what does it mean to run a company

02:03:02   and be a leader in this moment?

02:03:04   - Well, the trade-offs are everything.

02:03:07   There's nothing else to talk about.

02:03:09   I feel like we could, our job is always to explore

02:03:14   and complain and talk about trade-offs.

02:03:18   - Yeah. - Not a bad way to frame it.

02:03:20   - Yeah, and once you, you can listen to anybody,

02:03:23   interview anybody at this moment in podcasting history.

02:03:27   So, I wanna make sure this one has a little bit of a focus

02:03:30   in asking people who make decisions exactly how they do it.

02:03:33   So, hopefully people like it, you can subscribe to it.

02:03:35   Decoder.

02:03:36   - Excellent.

02:03:38   Well, thanks for being here, Levi.

02:03:39   Talk to you soon.