The Talk Show

301: ‘A Craptastic Craptacular’, With Joanna Stern


00:00:00   We have scandals to talk about now because you and I appeared on CNBC's Squawk Alley together,

00:00:05   and we created a webcam gate.

00:00:07   Truly. Truly the outrage, the outrage that I would dare to say that the webcam is not good.

00:00:16   The outrage, which you have said, and you know what, we should begin here.

00:00:20   We should start with it.

00:00:22   I want to apologize to you. I've felt very badly about a couple of things.

00:00:27   The first thing is I said I looked better on air than you, which is true, but I'm sorry I said it.

00:00:33   [Laughter]

00:00:35   It should go unsaid.

00:00:36   It shouldn't have been said out loud, so I'm sorry for that.

00:00:41   Second of all, I stole your word and I honestly, in my head, I wanted to say,

00:00:47   "Can I say craptastic on air?" And then they answer me and say, "Okay, anyway, that's John's word.

00:00:53   He used it in his review, but he's right." But I got derailed and I didn't give you credit.

00:01:00   So your word is craptastic. Well, it's fantastic. Your word is fantastic, but the word craptastic

00:01:07   is a word you used to describe the webcams in your review, and I said it on live national TV,

00:01:15   and I passed it off as my own, and that was wrong.

00:01:17   All right.

00:01:18   So I'm very sorry.

00:01:20   I've spent the last 48 hours on a deep dive on this very issue.

00:01:24   The webcam quality aside, all I've done is look into this language.

00:01:28   It turns out you didn't quite steal my word. You did say craptastic.

00:01:33   You did try to steal my word, but my word from my review was craptacular.

00:01:40   Oh, I would like to take back the last five minutes of this recording.

00:01:48   This is how deep down the rabbit hole we are.

00:01:51   I am so sorry.

00:01:53   I'm sorry to all the listeners. I was wrong. I did not mean to apologize, actually for anything.

00:01:59   Uh, anyway, it's craptacular, craptastic, however you want to talk about it.

00:02:05   This was—and so I'm enjoying—you do TV more than me, and you do video weekly with

00:02:11   the Wall Street Journal. I've started doing these CNBC hits, and I enjoy it,

00:02:16   even though it stresses me to no end, but I basically have agreed to start doing it.

00:02:21   And they've been very politely asking me for years, because, A, I'm home and the timing works

00:02:27   out. Like when I'm—a lot of times over the years, they've asked me like, "Oh, there's a big Apple

00:02:31   event, and it's in California. Can you do a hit on CNBC?" And then it's like, "It would require

00:02:37   you to be somewhere in downtown San Francisco at 5.30 in the morning Pacific time." And it's like,

00:02:41   "No. Sorry."

00:02:42   Yep. I know the ask very well. I know the ask very well.

00:02:45   Not going to happen. I'm—

00:02:47   It's like, I'm going to be inside the event at that moment covering it. How will I be on

00:02:52   your television show, too?

00:02:53   Right. Or I'm not going to get up at four in the morning and go do it. It's not worth it. But when

00:03:02   I can do it from home and I don't have to go anywhere, it's good. And the CNBC hosts are

00:03:08   very knowledgeable. For people who are talking about all sorts of business, anything that pops

00:03:13   up all during the day, the hosts on Squawk Alley like John Ford, all the questions are great.

00:03:18   John Ford pulled out—

00:03:19   Oh, they're the best.

00:03:20   He pulled out "Is this the biggest thing for the max since the next acquisition?" I mean,

00:03:27   and I don't think that's an exaggeration. I think that's actually a good analogy. But how many

00:03:31   people on TV business news could pull that out?

00:03:34   Oh, they're the best. I mean, that show in particular, but I'm on a lot of CNBC shows.

00:03:39   Yeah.

00:03:39   And it's always—one thing I've done a lot of TV in my time, and they always want to get you

00:03:45   to say something, right? So you could say it and it'd be some controversial thing. And that's a

00:03:51   good soundbite. I never feel that way with all the CNBC shows that I'm on. And yeah, especially

00:03:57   Squawk Alley with Carl, John, and it depends on who else the other anchor is that's stepping in.

00:04:02   But this week it was Julia. And they're all wonderful. And they really know their stuff.

00:04:07   Yeah. And I can tell exactly that. And you think faster than I do. You're meant for video. I think

00:04:13   slow. And I get caught up. And I'm like, "Oh, I've been trapped. And I can't figure my way out of the

00:04:17   trap. And next thing I know, the hit's over and my time is gone." I don't want to get trapped into

00:04:21   that like, "Hey, we're trying to get you to say something, a news bite." I always get the sense

00:04:26   with them that they really just want to get to the kernel of truth. What's the deal with these

00:04:30   MacBooks? What's the deal with the new iPhone? And I really appreciate that. So I keep doing it.

00:04:36   But the other thing is it does go fast, right? It's so fast. You're on. They do a great job of

00:04:43   getting you ready to go. And it is so much more convenient doing this remotely. But it's also

00:04:49   sort of like doing it blind, right? You're just there. There's a little voice from a control room

00:04:56   person who's very professional and very nice. And they seem very keenly aware of how in the dark you

00:05:03   are. But it's like, they cut to a commercial. They're like, "Okay, you're on after the commercial."

00:05:07   But then you see nothing. It's like you don't get the watch at commercials or anything. And you're

00:05:11   just like, "Okay." And then- Yeah. I've gotten pretty used to it. I was doing these pretty

00:05:18   frequently actually before COVID. And then after COVID, I've definitely, I mean, there was a bunch

00:05:23   of time where they were definitely not interested in tech news, understandably. So I wasn't called

00:05:28   a lot, but over the last couple of months doing a lot of these and actually I'm a contributor. So

00:05:32   I probably should watch what I say about CNBC, though everything I say here is,

00:05:37   I've been completely honest. But one thing, I look like such an idiot. I'm just sitting in front of

00:05:42   my computer smiling for usually three minutes before these things start, which I think is just

00:05:47   hilarious. I mean, nobody else is around, but I don't know when it's going to really start. So

00:05:52   I just sit here smiling like a true asshole, just like, "Oh, you're going to talk to me yet? Are

00:05:58   they on me?" My dog is probably like, "What the fuck is she doing?" Right. You sit there in your

00:06:05   office chair where you usually have no self-awareness at all. And I'm just slumped

00:06:09   with the worst possible posture. Meanwhile, I'm sitting there, I'm on stage ready to get called

00:06:14   up to get an award or something, ramrod straight back, square shoulders, looking straight ahead.

00:06:23   And then this time I got panicked too. And it's usually, I'll feel free to

00:06:29   dig around on my phone. I don't want to mess with my computer, but I'll sit there and like, "Well,

00:06:33   I've got a couple of minutes here." And then all of a sudden I remembered that with all the latest

00:06:38   software updates, there's the magic switching of AirPods Pro, which I was using for my audio and my

00:06:44   input. And I was like, "Wait, I don't want to mess this up with my phone and have the AirPods switch

00:06:50   over to the phone and then they're not on the Mac." And it's like, "I don't think that would work. I

00:06:54   think it's supposed to be smart, but you don't want to mess with it when you're supposed to go on TV."

00:06:57   So I was like, "Oh, I should have had a magazine here." I have nothing.

00:07:03   No, you're basically in a virtual green room, except the camera's pointing at you always.

00:07:09   But yeah, the flying blind thing is tough because when you're used to be on set with an anchor and

00:07:15   some other guests, what I always really liked is they would book me with another guest. So we would

00:07:18   kind of maybe even tussle a little. They even said in our thing, "I've never seen two guests agree so

00:07:23   much." They definitely like to have some difference of opinion. In fact, there's one great one where I

00:07:30   just told the guys flat out wrong. And I was like, "I bet him." I was like, "You're totally wrong.

00:07:34   Apple is not going to announce that." But here, I can't see you. I can't see them. And I even felt

00:07:41   like, "Oh, I would mention John, but is John on camera with me right now? Are we a split screen?

00:07:47   Is it just me? Is it just him?" And you can't see the anchors. I haven't actually seen the anchors

00:07:54   face to face since, I don't know, February. I saw John when we were doing it. I don't know

00:08:00   how it worked. I don't know what they were. But two weeks ago when I was talking about the phones,

00:08:05   I didn't see anybody. And this time I did see John, but I didn't see you. It was all crazy.

00:08:12   Yeah, I think you get the feed sometimes of whatever's in the studio.

00:08:16   Sometimes I see Carl, I guess. And when I do the morning show, I've seen

00:08:20   Mike, I believe. Yeah, anyway.

00:08:25   Well, anyway, the thing that we had a hard time—we just didn't have enough time to get out—is

00:08:29   that we're not—it made it seem as though you and I were arguing over the camera, where you said the

00:08:35   camera is craptastic, trying to steal my word, but coming up with your own made up, crappular word.

00:08:43   And then I interjected with, "Well, I'm using it right now." And I was. And I had no idea if

00:08:50   it looked good or not. I wasn't trying to refute you. But I realized, in hindsight, it came across

00:08:57   as me saying, "Well, I'm using it, and it looks great." I didn't know what it looked like. I

00:09:01   tested it side by side. I knew it looked better than the old ones. But it made it seem like we

00:09:08   disagree. You say these cameras stink, and I'm saying, "I love them. I think it's so great. I

00:09:12   used it to go on TV." Whereas I think the truth is we actually, even further—here's the one point

00:09:17   where it seemed like maybe we had a little point of, "Hey, this is fun," on TV. But we actually,

00:09:23   I think, completely agree, which is that the camera still stinks overall, but it is way better

00:09:30   than the MacBook cameras before.

00:09:33   Stephanie: Yes, we definitely agree on all of that. I wouldn't say way better.

00:09:39   Brian Smith Maybe we can mildly hash out how much better,

00:09:42   way better.

00:09:43   Stephanie Cacchia Right. Because in my video,

00:09:44   not the CNBC video, but the Wall Street Journal review video that I did, I did have a short place

00:09:50   where I actually used the webcam quite a bit. And I had a short place where I showed both side by

00:09:56   side. I think that you could really see in that frame, lighting was good. So it was a good place

00:10:01   to see. Both looked fine. But the difference between the—yes, I was definitely using the

00:10:09   2020 Intel MacBook Air on one side and the 2020 M1 MacBook Air. And it's a little bit brighter.

00:10:19   You definitely can see there's less compression. And you can also see that there's just better

00:10:25   lighting or more even lighting, which are all the things that Apple said was going to be improved

00:10:30   here using machine learning and no actual upgrade to the hardware. But it's still just not as good

00:10:37   as a dedicated webcam. One you'd buy from Logitech, one you use on your iPhone, one that in the case

00:10:43   of CNBC, what happened, I want to explain here. I decided a couple of weeks ago, I needed to up my

00:10:48   CNBC game. I was using my iPhone using Camo, this software. I was using that on the Mac and on the

00:10:59   iPhone, and it was working great. I liked it a lot. But it wasn't looking as good, frankly, as

00:11:03   Nilay Patel, who also is a CNBC contributor. And sometimes we're on together and I'm like,

00:11:08   "I can't have Nilay look better than me. That's not okay." And so I decided I'm going to do what

00:11:13   he was doing, which is hooking up my Sony camera, my Sony RX100 to my computer. I got an HDMI

00:11:18   connector. I did all the things. And so I was really excited because this is my first time

00:11:23   using that on air. And it's like night and day better than a webcam in a MacBook.

00:11:30   So what I think happened, or I know what happened, is first of all, in Zoom, in the Zoom window where

00:11:35   I connect with CNBC, I looked very good. I was very crisp. You could see the full view of my

00:11:41   window or of my background. And then CNBC crops into that pretty significantly. Then CNBC is

00:11:49   running that through Zoom through their own software or some sort of, what's it called,

00:11:54   forget the technical name that they use in TV, switcher or something. And so that's further

00:12:02   compressing it. Plus, I was dumb and I didn't get the Ethernet dongle. Actually, it wasn't dumb,

00:12:08   honestly. The 13-inch MacBook Pro only has two USB ports, which is infuriating to me because I've

00:12:14   been coming from the 16-inch where I had all the things hooked up and I decided not to use Ethernet.

00:12:19   So I was on my not that great Wi-Fi and all those things compounded to make my video not look great.

00:12:27   Interesting.

00:12:27   Versus you who are just actually having a very simple webcam, using the simple webcam,

00:12:35   which looked fine but definitely did not look as good as the image that was really coming out of

00:12:42   my system. Yeah. I feel like side by side, it's a very interesting example of

00:12:51   proving that the M1 chip and using Apple Silicon and having this pipeline where the camera feeds

00:13:00   directly into the M1 and it even helps with security where the M1 can electronically gate

00:13:10   whether software has access to the camera and make sure the green light goes on.

00:13:13   But it goes through the... I guess there is... I think they do say there's machine learning

00:13:19   involved too, but I know there's an image signal processing chip that before the computer, the Mac

00:13:25   software ever even sees the image, the image signaling processor chip already has cleaned

00:13:31   up the image in a way that on the Intel MacBooks to date, that doesn't happen.

00:13:36   And it's a great example of, "Okay, here's this real crappy 720p camera. Here's what it looks

00:13:41   like on Intel." And it's not like Apple spent years purposefully making it look worse because

00:13:48   they knew the M1 was coming. It's like, I'm sure they were trying, but now with this image signaling

00:13:54   processor, you get this better image. And it's definitely less noisy. It's the same camera,

00:14:00   but it's a lot less noisy. They're definitely, definitely white balance improvements. And you

00:14:07   see that more at nighttime. So one of the cheats I had for the CNBC thing is doing it at 11 AM

00:14:13   Eastern time, I get really nice natural light in my office and that helps a lot. When I was doing

00:14:19   tests for my review, I shot a lot of it at night. My office has fine office lighting, but it's

00:14:26   incandescent office lighting. And it's just amazing how blue you look. And it shouldn't be,

00:14:32   if anything, it should be warm. It just totally throws it off. The noise is off the charts.

00:14:38   But then you don't have to be a super picky professional to start noticing, "Hey,

00:14:44   they're cheating here." They're doing the Barbara Walters filter where they're looking for faces,

00:14:50   and then they just electronically smear gauze all over it. So your face on this camera doesn't look

00:14:59   as noisy as it did on the Intel MacBooks, which is terrible. And the color temperature is way better.

00:15:07   But as soon as you look for that gauze, well, they're just blurring your face. And it's like,

00:15:14   "Oh yeah, I see that. That's a cheat." And it doesn't look good. It looks better than

00:15:19   before, but you can start seeing how they're cheating.

00:15:22   Yeah. And you also, I think they're using the same type of... One of the big things that I notice

00:15:27   on the 16-inch MacBook Pro is the reaction to light sources. Do you ever notice that it's just

00:15:35   completely blown out? Yeah, yeah, yes. Totally. Yeah.

00:15:39   And that is also much better here. So if I have a big light behind me, not like a big window,

00:15:46   but even just a lamp in back of me, that is less blown out. No, they made improvements.

00:15:54   They certainly made improvements, but it's gonna get better. It can get so much better.

00:16:01   And again, this is something I just keep thinking. They've put a 1080p camera on the iMac.

00:16:08   They're also using there some software to improve that. That's where it's headed. That's what we

00:16:14   should have on these brand new systems. But I'm not gonna complain too much about it because these

00:16:19   brand new systems are truly amazing. I feel like what they've... And I think it makes hindsight...

00:16:28   In hindsight, it makes a lot of sense, but they honestly changed nothing that they didn't have

00:16:34   to change. I mean, it is externally, and I had one side by side. There is no physical difference.

00:16:42   I only had the MacBook Pro, by the way. It sounds like from your review, you had the

00:16:46   Air, like the 999 Air, right? I had the... It's 12... I forget the exact number. 12...

00:16:55   Let me look it up. I had slightly better than the 999 because it has the eight-core CPU.

00:17:02   Oh, the GPU, you mean? Yeah. Yeah, sorry. The eight-core GPU, but still had eight gigabytes

00:17:07   of RAM. So it's a little bit of an odd config, but it's like the second bump up on your site.

00:17:13   But physically compared side by side with the Intel versions that are the latest and greatest,

00:17:21   you really have to turn them on to see that there's anything unless you happen to know the

00:17:25   model number and the model number is literally printed in the smallest type on the bottom plate

00:17:31   that you could possibly read. And you just have to know that like A2338 is, "Oh, that's an M1

00:17:37   MacBook." Otherwise, the hardware is like the same. It's the same trackpad, the same keyboard,

00:17:43   same touch bar, the same buttons, the same screens, where the Pro has this 500-nit max

00:17:50   screen and the Air is 400-nit. The same bezels that by today's laptop standards are maybe slightly

00:17:58   dated, the same color options, the same webcam, it's all internal. And I know people are

00:18:04   disappointed by that. And there's a part of me that was like, "Well, why couldn't we have

00:18:08   everything? Why can't this just be the greatest day in MacBook history and we get new form factors

00:18:12   and new cameras and everything?" They're thinner and lighter and they look just plain look cooler.

00:18:18   But now that it's out, it's like, "Oh, this seems pretty obvious." They had so much to change just

00:18:23   by changing the architectures. Why take a chance changing anything else? And it's, pun intended,

00:18:32   with this, it's an apples-to-apples comparison. And that's what made this review, I think,

00:18:37   so spectacular or the testing of this so spectacular. So sitting next to me, I've got a

00:18:42   huge stack of MacBooks, right? I had the Intel version, pretty much the exact Intel version of

00:18:47   both systems. I had the Intel version of the Air that was released back in March. And I had the

00:18:53   Intel version of the 13-inch Pro that was released, I believe, back in April or May. And I tested side

00:19:00   by side and I'd used those systems over the last number of months. And again, because you had the

00:19:06   same hardware and basically, I believe the same battery and the same sort of external other things

00:19:14   that they didn't change, you could make this crazy comparison. You could run battery tests side by

00:19:19   side and actually see eight hours difference. You could run side by side the same exact tests like

00:19:26   I did with opening 100 Chrome tabs or playing the same game. And I would actually just shoot the

00:19:32   thermometer gun at the M1 chip and see it was 10 to 15 degrees cooler than the Intel version.

00:19:41   And so it truly was like a reviewer's paradise in terms of testing these things, as I said,

00:19:48   apples to apples. I really wish that I had thought of the thermometer trick. I still haven't even

00:19:52   tried it because we bought—I don't have the gun, but we have a little Nokia thing that we bought at

00:19:59   the beginning of this coronavirus thing, which is amazing. It is just this amazing little thing. And

00:20:05   it's the coolest thing I've seen from Nokia in like, I don't know, since then. It's like the

00:20:09   little curved— Yeah, like it almost looks like a suction cup, like a Nerf dart top. And you just

00:20:16   wave it over the forehead for a wave or two. And it looks like a thermometer from Star Trek. And

00:20:20   then it just gives you a number. And we've just been sitting here taking our temperatures

00:20:26   a couple times a day every day since March. Because it's fine.

00:20:31   Right. But I really thought, "Oh, I should have tried that." I was so jealous when you

00:20:35   tried that because all I did was put my fingers on it. And I'm like, "Damn,

00:20:38   this thing is not getting hotter. I thought that running this blank for 10 minutes

00:20:44   should have made this get hotter. What is going on?" I was very jealous of that.

00:20:49   Yeah, I mean, it's funny when the whole thermometer thing happened. I've had that one

00:20:54   for a long time from my old laptop testing days. It's probably not that old, but I've upgraded it.

00:21:00   But sometimes now, there was that whole debate about what kind of thermometer should you really

00:21:04   be using, like surface thermometers. And in a couple of photos, and this one I have is very much

00:21:11   a equipment thermometer. It's meant for measuring surfaces of objects, not people, not skin. But

00:21:19   I've seen in some photos Getty Images types of things, people using these types of thermometers

00:21:25   to measure skin temperature. And that's just completely wrong. You don't get a very accurate

00:21:30   reading. So maybe I shouldn't have used my Nokia. Yeah, I don't think that would be, I mean, you

00:21:36   could try. I mean, look, what you really need is a baseline, right? Like I didn't even really report,

00:21:40   I did report some of the numbers. But like what you really want to see is the delta, right? Like

00:21:44   the M1 is 70 degrees and the Intel is 90, right? You're like crazy 20 degree difference.

00:21:52   Well, we know where to pick this back up. I'm going to take a break here and thank our first

00:21:57   sponsor before we keep going. We're going to pick up by talking about thermometers.

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00:23:35   to Linode for sponsoring the show and for hosting Daring Fireball. So anyway, that is one of the

00:23:41   little things. That's like one of those things that using this and all right, Apple makes their

00:23:46   announcement and then we have some press briefings and then they ship it. That's the weird part.

00:23:52   Usually it's like you get in person, they give you these things in hand and they're all, you have to

00:23:57   sign away an NDA and stuff. And now you can't do any of that. They have to ship them to you.

00:24:02   But we're talking about it before we get to like play. We have no hands on time with these things.

00:24:08   We're talking to them. And the one thing that I was told by a couple of people at Apple was like,

00:24:12   just these things run so cool. It is amazing. And it's like, okay, that sounds great, but

00:24:18   I'm sure they get hot eventually. I couldn't make the damn thing get hot.

00:24:22   I tried so hard. I mean, that was the whole basis of my video because when I started trying,

00:24:28   I was like, you know what I think I need to do, document this in visual form because I was trying

00:24:34   so hard to get these things warm. I mean, it started with the air because it's like, okay,

00:24:39   it's fanless. It's got to hit some point where it gets really warm. And we should talk about that,

00:24:46   but that doesn't really happen because it just tamps down on the performance versus like,

00:24:49   get really warm. But still it's amazing what you can do with that thing before it starts to

00:24:55   just say, okay, I'm going to give up and I can't do what you're asking me to do.

00:25:00   Everything from gaming to running the hundred Chrome tabs to video calling. And with the Pro,

00:25:07   I was like, okay, well, what does it take to get the fan to go on? So I did, again,

00:25:12   tons and tons of tests. And when I finally got it to go on, I couldn't, and I was doing this,

00:25:19   I mean, you watch the video, I was trying, I actually recorded the fan noises. That wasn't

00:25:25   fake. That wasn't like, we're going to just go find some fan noise on the internet, like sound

00:25:28   effects. I recorded that. And when it finally went off, when the fan on the Pro finally went off,

00:25:34   I had to like scurry around to find my good mic, plug it in, start running, like to record it. And

00:25:40   I was like, thank God I got it. Like, and it stayed for long enough. But actually the fan

00:25:45   noise itself is quite quiet on the Pro compared to the Intel systems. Bottom line is I tried really

00:25:53   hard, John. It is so quiet compared to the Intel systems. And like, I even mentioned it in my

00:25:58   review, like to set up my M1 MacBook Pro, I used migration assistant to move over a setup from,

00:26:05   that I had on a 16 inch MacBook Pro from just last year. It's still a review unit that I had here

00:26:12   waiting for this to compare head to head before I send it back. And just running migration assistant

00:26:20   on the 16 inch MacBook Pro, which I think is like a $3,600 configuration, maybe closer to 4,000. I

00:26:28   mean, it's got gobs of RAM and a huge SSD. And it's the Intel with the most cores on a MacBook

00:26:37   Pro. Just running migration assistant, the fans go on on the 16 inch MacBook Pro and they're not on

00:26:43   the other thing. And they're so loud. And it's like, you're just, and when you're running

00:26:48   migration assistant, everything else quits. It's like, you know, it's almost like putting the Mac,

00:26:53   it actually is putting it into a special mode just for migration assistant. So it's not like,

00:26:57   oh, well, migration assistant's running, but you've also got a bunch of Safari tabs or whatever.

00:27:02   No, no, everything else quits. And it's just migration assistant from this machine to migration

00:27:07   assistant on this machine. And the 16 inch MacBook Pro is like a hairdryer. The other one is dead

00:27:14   silent. And it's like, oh, this is going to be interesting. And you know, it's so well,

00:27:18   like I work on that system. I've honestly worked on that for a lot of quarantine for a lot of like,

00:27:24   just because like the bigger screen and I can be on the couch and have a 16 inch screen and

00:27:27   do work and come back to my desk and dock and have just so much screen. And I love that

00:27:31   machine hardware wise, but the fan and the heat on that, that like, if I'm cold, I can physically

00:27:40   warm my whole body with the top of that keyboard. Like you just rub your whole body on top of that

00:27:45   keyboard and you can get you can warm yourself. I don't know why they don't sell it as like an

00:27:49   actual space heater. So the, I think by the letter of the NDA, you're not supposed to talk, you know,

00:27:56   you're allowed to talk to like your people you work with and the people in your family about the

00:28:00   review unit before the embargo. But you know, there's a circle of us who know each other. And

00:28:05   we know I knew Matthew Panzorino was going to have some I knew Jason Snell. I knew you would have

00:28:11   some, you know, and so we we commit a little I mean, and we're not, you know, it's all it's not.

00:28:16   It's not a cutthroat business reviewing these things. You know, we're not trying to undercut

00:28:21   each other. You know, it's not like we're being super sick for yourself. John. Yes, I know.

00:28:26   I'm talking to you. It's trying to be please, please. But I really did. I got to the point where

00:28:36   I was running out of time I was, you know, and I was like, I was like, this is amazing. This MacBook

00:28:42   Pro, it has a fan. Everybody is thinking, well, they made such a big deal that the air has no fan,

00:28:48   that they must mean that this one has a fan. And it's sort of like MacBook Pros that you know,

00:28:54   from the past in terms of coming on and making noise and, you know, getting hot. And hey,

00:29:00   if you want a machine to run silently, you should get the air. And I'm like, this is amazing,

00:29:04   because you can get the this MacBook Pro and it'll you can trust it to run silently. Because I've

00:29:10   never heard this thing come on. I don't feel any air blowing. And then I was like, this would be

00:29:13   a big angle of my review. And then all of a sudden, I just thought popped into my head, what if I got

00:29:18   a lemon and the fan just doesn't work? I don't want to make a jerk of myself. And yeah, you know,

00:29:25   write 2000 words in this review about how the fan never comes on. And so I like started reaching out

00:29:32   to people and I'm like, Hey, did you have the MacBook Pro? And they're like, yeah, and I mean,

00:29:35   does the fan ever come on? They're like, No, or it's like, almost never. And I'm like, Oh, thank

00:29:40   God. I will admit, I mean, maybe I shouldn't admit it here. People listen, people. It's fine.

00:29:48   I did the same with Neil I Patel. I was like, I can't get the fan to go off. Like it's what is

00:29:54   going on. And like at that point, I decided to do this whole video on it. And I was like, I can't

00:29:59   not I can't have this be like at the end of this video, I didn't get it to turn on.

00:30:03   Right. He did tip me to one benchmark. But then finally, actually, when I decided I was like,

00:30:10   I'm going to try Premiere. Premiere, if you're doing a long enough export, that will do it.

00:30:16   The issue was when I was testing, I was just doing like, I was exporting three to four minute videos,

00:30:20   and that wasn't long enough for the system to go like in overdrive or to be exporting for that

00:30:24   long. So I finally got it through Premiere and running a bunch of Chrome tabs in the background.

00:30:29   But that like the Chrome test when that first when I did that myself, I was like, truly freaking out

00:30:35   by myself here in my, my like office. It's, this is kind of the sad thing. I mean, I know you always

00:30:40   sort of work alone. But like, I just wanted somebody to like hug, you know, like, I was like,

00:30:47   it's, I there's 100 tabs open in Chrome, I can move around in each of them. I'm writing in docs

00:30:55   at normal speed, everything is just working. Like, is this a miracle of God? And like, no,

00:31:01   I had no one to share it with. And no beach ball, right? Because that's the thing with the older

00:31:06   systems is if you have a bunch of tabs, sure, you could switch between these, you know, one, two,

00:31:11   and three, one, two, and three, and it all just works, even though you have them all open, but

00:31:14   then you go to like tab 47, which hasn't been used in a while. And that's the one that's been swapped

00:31:20   out to disk, and then they have to bring it back, the system has to bring it back, and you get the

00:31:24   beach baller just pauses. And you're waiting and you're like, wait, trying to scroll and this page

00:31:29   won't scroll. It just takes you out of your flow, you're out of your flow. And you're like, oh, and

00:31:34   you know, especially for me with browser tabs, you never know is like, wait, is the whole thing going

00:31:39   to reload? Did something happen? And then it catches up, you're like, oh, there it is. But

00:31:43   now your flow's broken. That never happened with the system. It's like, and I know, even though my

00:31:48   test machine had 16 gigs of RAM, not eight, I was looking at it in activity monitor, and I was just

00:31:54   opening goofy stuff in the background, like, oh, I'll just leave a big photograph open in

00:32:00   Pixelmator Pro in the background, so that I know it's using, you know, a bunch of RAM,

00:32:05   just just so that it's being used. And I can get the system to use more than 16 gigs of RAM,

00:32:12   and then start switching tabs and see if I like I could never tell.

00:32:16   Yeah, I did. I did the same thing. I did the same thing. And it's funny, because this summer,

00:32:20   I did this piece on Chrome, and Chrome versus Safari and Microsoft Edge, honestly, it was,

00:32:26   was a big part of the piece. And this was all brought on because over, you know, quarantine,

00:32:31   working on my systems more than I ever had before, the fan was going crazy. It was always going

00:32:38   crazy. And that in a combination with Google Meet, which is another issue with RAM, and especially

00:32:43   working in other browsers, other than Chrome, is just a disaster of eating cram, uh, cram,

00:32:50   RAM. And it's a new thing I made, cram. But honestly, Chrome eats, it's cram, is

00:32:56   Chrome. You have to buy cram for Chrome. Yeah, that'd be good.

00:33:00   They did this video and during the summer of this Chrome, I animated this guy who was eating a

00:33:04   Chrome guy, or I didn't, but I hired an animator to do it. I was like, I want you to make Chrome

00:33:08   eat all the parts of the food in the in the computer, because that's what it does. And

00:33:14   in this piece, like I basically was like, Chrome is unusable on Macs, we need to all stop using Chrome.

00:33:20   And we should do that for privacy reasons, too. I made that argument. But like, it is just devouring

00:33:25   the RAM, not, and Safari, brand new Safari on a big server is amazing. And it works really well.

00:33:31   And they've got the favicons, we could talk about that, Gruber, we can, we can talk about how you

00:33:35   won that fight. I should just retire after that one. You really should have, yeah, just like me

00:33:40   with the keyboards. It's like, why do I keep working, honestly. But now, it's a horse of a

00:33:47   different color. Like, and they've released the, you know, Google's released an M1 Intel,

00:33:52   a non Intel optimized version. And I kind of want to go back to Chrome, but I made a big thing about

00:34:02   how I wasn't. I'm also obsessed with Edge for a different reason. But yeah, the Edge collections

00:34:09   is amazing feature for a browser. I was kind of glad that the Chrome update to run natively on

00:34:15   the M1 didn't come out until yesterday, which was a couple days after the reviews. So that while I

00:34:21   was writing my review, I could open a bunch of stuff in Chrome and know that it was running

00:34:25   through Rosetta. Because I was like, well, this should be a good test. And I know that it's a good

00:34:30   test that's applicable to lots of people, because Chrome is the thing lots of people use. And I

00:34:35   figured, you know, not that Chrome in particular would be a good long term test, because I without

00:34:41   even asking anybody or looking on the chromium message boards, it was like, there's no way they're

00:34:46   not going to have a native version out within weeks at the latest, you know. But just, you know,

00:34:52   it has a test of Rosetta. And it was like, I can't even tell I really can't. I was like,

00:34:57   that's the other, you know, the other like, miracle in this to me is and and I'll admit,

00:35:04   you know, before anybody digs it up, like when it was like the cusp of WWDC this year,

00:35:09   my last minute predictions, it was like, everybody kind of knew that they were going to announce this

00:35:14   transition. But nobody really knew what the details were going to be. And I made the prediction that

00:35:20   maybe they wouldn't have any emulation for old Intel software, because it would be so much easier

00:35:26   for, you know, compared to a decade ago or two decades ago transitions, developers should be

00:35:32   ready for this to just recompile. Not only was I wrong that they, I said, I don't think they're

00:35:38   going to have emulation. They do. It is amazing. It is just it is the best and I went through the

00:35:46   transition in the 90s with the Mac going from the Motorola 68000 series to PowerPC. And I was here

00:35:53   for the PowerPC to Intel. This is the just absolutely flabbergasting how you just don't

00:36:00   know you really have you can just recommend these machines to normal people. And if they say, Do I

00:36:06   have to update all my software and it's like, yeah, just do whatever you normally do, you know,

00:36:09   you'll be fine. And that was my biggest like question mark, you know, whether it was the

00:36:14   summer after WWDC or even after the announcement a couple of weeks ago, I just, you know, was very

00:36:19   careful with readers to say I would not pre order just yet. Let's see what happens with the software.

00:36:24   I had giant concerns about it. Not only because of the Mac history, but back then I was a Windows

00:36:32   fan and so still like Windows in many shapes and forms. But, you know, having seen the Windows RT

00:36:39   disaster, I was just like, there's, you know, this is not an easy thing to do. And it definitely

00:36:46   can have big consumer impact and people who depend on certain apps, you know, my readers, they love

00:36:51   Quicken. You know, they've got it. You want a Quicken fan, you read the Wall Street Journal.

00:36:56   And like, you know, I had no issues. I mean, there's nothing that doesn't work on here,

00:37:04   even with just to prep for this podcast, because I'm now using the pro and I had done a lot of

00:37:08   testing on the air, I needed to download like five things really quickly. You know, Skype, Audacity,

00:37:14   all these things. And I was like, Oh, just grab them all. And they all it's just like,

00:37:16   yes, no problem. Yeah, it's really impressive technologically. And again, not getting into

00:37:22   details, just the fan doesn't come on. I was so relieved. Again, I cannot emphasize the moment of

00:37:28   panic I had that maybe I got a bum machine years ago, my first the original Apple Watch,

00:37:34   the review unit, I got the taptic engine broke. And it broke very quickly. I clearly had a lemon.

00:37:43   It was like I tried it on. And immediately I was like, wow, these taps for the thing do not feel

00:37:50   like they did months ago when I was at the event. And we had you remember the first Apple Watch came

00:37:55   out. You know, a long time after the event. I was like, that's not how I remember it all. I can

00:38:02   barely feel this. And then with like 10 minutes later, it I didn't get any taps at all. And I'm

00:38:07   like, shouldn't I be getting a tap for this is like, I'm not getting taps for alerts. I'm not

00:38:11   getting and I like contacted Apple. And they're like, Oh, that sounds like a bad unit. Let us

00:38:16   replace it. And they like sent somebody down from New York with a unit the same day, like hours

00:38:22   later. And it was the exact, you know, look like the exact same thing. And it had none of the

00:38:25   problems. So I was like, Oh, and they were like, Yeah, give us that one. We'll take a look. You

00:38:28   know, it was clearly a bad unit. I think that they sent back Eric from New York, like he's actually

00:38:34   just been waiting outside your house. I know. They said he was waiting out. Yeah, he's still waiting

00:38:39   out there. You know, but it happens, you know, and it you know, in terms, you know, they really do

00:38:44   send reviewers the actual unit, you know, if anybody, you know, to me, it was like confirmation

00:38:49   that they're not like special, like, hey, we're going to pre test all these units before we give

00:38:53   them to reviewers. You know, they're sealed up just like consumer units, and they give them to

00:38:57   you. And I just thought, Oh, my God, what if I got the M1 MacBook Pro with a broken fan, and it mostly

00:39:03   works, because clearly the air is supposed to work without a fan. So it works. But right, but you're

00:39:09   not getting like the performance leap. Yes, it's just not getting there. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't

00:39:15   know, I gotta check with somebody. And everybody was like, No, it's, it's either a like me, they

00:39:19   couldn't get it to come on or be like you, they could get it to come on. But like the most dire

00:39:24   circumstances, you know, and premieres a good test. I know Jason said, Jason Snell said that

00:39:28   video export was was one way he got it to come on. And and not to throw premiere under the bus,

00:39:34   but premiere because it's cross platform, isn't necessarily optimized, like the way Final Cut

00:39:39   Pro is specifically for Apple stuff and to channel stuff through the special chips. It's going through

00:39:44   the CPU to export video. So it's going to heat it up. You know, it's like a stress test of the CPU

00:39:51   in a way that maybe Final Cut Pro isn't for the same export task. Yeah, I think at this point,

00:39:57   it's it's got to be a mix of the GPU and CPU really being hammered for it to come on because

00:40:03   gaming can do it too for longer periods of time. The cinebench test, which also is is a GPU test.

00:40:11   I think it's a combo of that because I did video calling is another place where the you know,

00:40:17   the fans are always coming on on the Intel system, especially in which is horrible, right? Because

00:40:23   horrible. I mean, that's what's so relatable about this right now. Like the timing could not be better

00:40:28   for this machine. Like, you know, in my video, I had it taking off for outer space. And the Intel

00:40:35   version because it is a constant joke in our company. Like, people will be like, is it normal

00:40:39   that like, they'll text me like is the normal the fans and I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's normal. Like,

00:40:43   your computer's going to take off for outer space. It's fine. It's always like a like a little fun

00:40:47   joke about it. But everyone knows it now because we're in zoom or Google Meet all day. And with

00:40:53   this that that was a huge turning point in my review. I've been working on a long video 30 minute

00:40:58   short documentary. And we did a viewing of it last week in Google Meet because it was the best

00:41:04   platform for this external editor I have. And we watched this video for 30 minutes through Google

00:41:11   Meet. It was a little bit choppy just because of bandwidth. The three of us all running their video.

00:41:16   The computer was completely cool. And I had other things going in the on in the background. This was

00:41:22   the air. Right. And, and then I also was like, okay, I actually want to switch to the pro. We

00:41:27   did it the next day again, just like a mild test, but into the full 30 minute run of the video.

00:41:32   Still nothing like the 16 inch MacBook Pro, the Intel version would be sweltering. Right. If I did

00:41:40   that, and noisy, right? It's so noisy, right? Yeah, it's an assault on two senses. It really is.

00:41:49   Yeah. And it is true that timing wise, you know, with everybody professionally dependent on video

00:41:59   conferencing, it really has elevated video conferencing to the level of I mean, what were

00:42:04   like the old standbys of Well, what are the things everybody does on a computer, email, web,

00:42:09   productivity apps, chat, you always need a Microsoft Word test, you know, everyone's

00:42:16   running, I mean, not anymore. But you know, what used to be for me when I was reviewing laptops,

00:42:21   right, open up a big Word document or open up a spreadsheet or something like that, and, you know,

00:42:26   resort the columns. You know, and web browsing is clearly the one that that is the most, you know,

00:42:32   everybody who doesn't use the web, so you can run tests and stuff like that. But now video

00:42:37   conferencing has to be part of that discussion of well, this is just table stakes for what people do

00:42:42   on their laptops. And, oh, yeah, it doesn't really matter which platform you're using, if it's Zoom or

00:42:48   Skype or Google Meet or whatever. Yeah, it's gonna sound like a hairdryer going on, and it's gonna

00:42:54   get real hot. And that's just the way it is. And it's like, now it's like, no, and it's like, part

00:43:00   of and what's cool about it is like, okay, so like, Google Meet is clearly it's not like they

00:43:07   optimized it for the M1, right? It's not, oh, well, it's FaceTime, you know, and Apple got to optimize

00:43:14   it and do whatever they could to take advantage of it. It's just Google Meet doing whatever they

00:43:18   were doing before, but now it's running on this new system, and it just doesn't get hot.

00:43:22   Yeah, it was, I mean, that call last week, I was like, I kept interrupting. I was like,

00:43:28   I just have to say my computer's totally fine. It's amazing. They're like, okay,

00:43:32   we're in the middle of watching the cut. I'm like, okay, fine, but.

00:43:36   And the other thing too, that sort of self-referential about it is like,

00:43:39   I wrote a long review. And it's just so much more physically pleasant writing,

00:43:47   and you're in a long typing session, and I'm in the flow, the words are coming out. It's like,

00:43:51   don't interrupt me. And here I go. And it's so nice when the palm rests are nice, cool aluminum,

00:43:58   as opposed to, you know, making your palms sweat aluminum. And it's like, that is it. It can't

00:44:06   measure. It doesn't show up in a Geekbench benchmark, but it's so much nicer. This is

00:44:11   the way it should be. And add in the battery life. And it's just like, right. And I love

00:44:18   it. And you said that on CNBC, I feel like, which was really, um, just such a good point. I mean,

00:44:23   just all around the updates here are so significant and just such a big leap from

00:44:30   what we've seen in laptops in 10 years. I really think that that to me is the takeaway for

00:44:36   the consumer audience mass market, should you get this? And it's like, if you were going to get

00:44:42   a 13 inch laptop, um, and you, you know, yeah. All right. There are people who need four ports. We

00:44:51   can get into that in a bit, but if you were just going to get like a roughly, you know, $1,200 ish,

00:44:57   13 inch, and you should get this one because it is the bat. It runs cool, runs silent and the

00:45:04   battery lasts noticeably longer. Like not like, Oh, every year the iPhone gets a little better.

00:45:10   And you know, it goes from 10 hours of whatever they, you know, audio playback to 11 hours. And

00:45:15   it's like, Oh, that's cool. That's 10% year over year. Like this is like twice as much or one and

00:45:20   a half of maybe with the air or something like that. But it really is the difference between

00:45:24   you plug it in overnight. And if your spot where you're working at home, probably right now,

00:45:33   isn't near a power outlet, don't worry about it. Just sit there. You can work all day long.

00:45:37   You don't have to turn the brightness down on your screen. You don't have to worry about quitting

00:45:40   background apps or anything like that. Just use it. And it'll easily last all day long.

00:45:46   Yeah. Yesterday, actually, I went to the office to finish recording some stuff in our studio.

00:45:52   And I left home and I was like, I'm not, I'm not bringing the charger, even though like I knew I

00:45:58   could find a charger at the office. But like, I was like, I'm just it. I can do it. I can make

00:46:04   it the entire day and actually left at like 7am and didn't come home till 7pm. I probably still had

00:46:10   40% battery. And I was on the computer all day at the office.

00:46:14   I thought that the one that really made like, I had to double check, like I pinged him. I was like,

00:46:20   let me make sure I'm reading this right. I was reading Panzarino's review. And he had the

00:46:24   bright idea of downloading the WebKit open source project and compiling it from scratch. And it's a

00:46:31   huge project, takes, you know, incredibly long amount of time, like over an hour.

00:46:37   And the M1 was like competing very admirably on time with like iMac Pro and the Mac Pro,

00:46:46   you know, $1,000 desktop workstations was beating the 16 inch MacBook Pro at compile speeds,

00:46:54   which is great if you're a developer and developers know that waiting for the compiler is

00:46:58   just a huge, you know, huge waste of time and it takes you out of your flow.

00:47:05   But the biggest difference was starting at 100%, the MacBook, the M1 MacBook Pro compiled the

00:47:12   whole thing. And when it was done, it had 91% battery life left when the Intel 13 inch MacBook

00:47:19   Pro, not 16 inch, but 13 inch, but with, you know, head to head comparison, it only had 24%

00:47:25   battery life left. It used 76% of the battery life to do what the M1 did 9%. Like, so even if you,

00:47:33   if the times were the same, which they weren't, the M1 was faster. That's insane. Like 24%

00:47:39   battery life means you've got to start looking for a charger right now. And 91% is like, well,

00:47:46   why even, you know, my, you know, rounds up to 100. That's insane.

00:47:50   I mean, and it all adds up. I mean, that system was probably super hot and like,

00:47:57   I don't know, chugging along to do whatever it had to do. It used all of its energy to do that

00:48:02   versus the M1 that just, it's like, okay, I'll just sit around and do it. And I'll use half the

00:48:07   energy and I won't, I'll just be cool. And that to me is just a huge reason to buy it, even if

00:48:12   you don't really understand and don't want to understand any technical aspect of what it means

00:48:17   to go from Intel's silicon to Apple silicon. Totally. Battery life lasts longer, runs cool,

00:48:22   runs faster. There you go. And the compatibility, you don't have to worry about compatibility.

00:48:26   There you go. The whole story is over. It's, you know, but yeah, like we've spent how many

00:48:31   minutes talking about it now and all, it's all I've thought about all week. But, I think for me,

00:48:36   there was, I had, I really loved the air maybe now it's like eight years ago. It was like a thing,

00:48:48   right? The 2011, yeah. The 2011 I think was the one that everybody, it was like the high watermark.

00:48:52   Yeah. And I was working at the Verge then and I even tweeted it today because Dieter Bone cited

00:49:00   it in his newsletter, but I was a Windows laptop reviewer at the time. I mean, really that was my

00:49:05   was my job. And I, well, I would say Windows, but I also had reviewed the air of that year. And

00:49:11   my long running thing was, but you know what, for $200 more than this Ultrabook from ASUS or from

00:49:18   Dell or HP, like I reviewed them all, but everyone would basically say, in every review, I would

00:49:23   basically say, you know, for $200 more, though, you can get this air, this MacBook Air, which

00:49:28   runs for, I think at the time it was like 12 hours, which was like double the amount of time

00:49:32   the Windows systems could and has better performance. And guess what, you can even run

00:49:37   Windows on it. And this was like the long thing. That year, I probably converted many people from

00:49:43   Windows systems to the air because the air was just the best. And then like between that point

00:49:49   and now really, you know, Apple did a good job on the air, did the refresh three years ago with

00:49:55   the horrible keyboard, which we don't have to get into right now. But it was fine, right? The

00:49:59   battery was fine. The performance was fine. It definitely got hot, it got warm, but it was really

00:50:04   no better than some of the Windows Ultrabooks. And honestly, Dell has been doing a great job on that

00:50:09   Ultrabook, their XPS 13 for years, you know, I always was able to get probably like two hours

00:50:15   more battery life out of the Dell than I was out of a Mac. And now it's just like night and days,

00:50:23   like this is the best laptop ever. Like I mean, I said that in my piece, I was like, this is these

00:50:28   laptops are the best ever. And they're they're better than any Windows system you could buy.

00:50:32   Yeah, and there's, there's an aspect to this where and I'm sort of stealing from my friend Ben

00:50:39   Thompson here. But there's a there's a way that the typical productivity has moved very largely

00:50:47   to the a lot of its stuff is just on the web. And people are just doing their work in browser tabs,

00:50:52   whatever browser they're using, but it's on the web, and therefore they can switch to,

00:50:56   you know, from Windows to Mac or something like that. And a lot of their stuff just works, right?

00:51:00   If you do your Gmail in gmail.com, you go anywhere and get your email. And in some ways,

00:51:09   that works against Apple, because like, what's, what's the point of getting a Mac if it's in

00:51:14   minority platform? And the advantage in the historically has always been, well,

00:51:20   if you really embrace the Mac ecosystem of Mac software and doing things the Mac way,

00:51:25   it's great. These are great apps. And they work well together. And there's just, you know, there's

00:51:31   there's just great advantages to it. But you kind of have to buy into this. And some people don't

00:51:38   want to do that. Some people don't want to break their habits. And then a lot of people can't

00:51:41   because they're they don't get to make those choices. They work at a place and their work says,

00:51:46   well, we're going to use Google Docs. And that's what we're using. And you're doing it. You know,

00:51:51   you don't you don't have a choice to use pages and numbers or something like that,

00:51:55   because it's in the Apple ecosystem. That's just the way it is. These machines are great

00:52:02   for people in that boat, because the runs cool runs fast and battery life is way longer. Yeah,

00:52:11   sold. Right. That is absolutely great, even if you're not really heavily or even at all into the

00:52:17   Apple software ecosystem, which is a very unusual place for the Mac to be.

00:52:22   And I think that's right. I think when you look at what does and I've been thinking about it this

00:52:29   week, what does Adele, I said that like, as I said, like Adele, like the singer, what does

00:52:36   Adele the singer do? What is she going to do about these Macs? Like, is she is she just gonna keep

00:52:44   selling what she's been selling? But really, like what I was just looking at the Dell XPS specs,

00:52:51   same price as these same price to get more storage. But it's just a no brainer to me. Like,

00:52:59   like, they're the battery life is going to be longer, it's kind of these systems run cooler,

00:53:04   they're faster. You buy the Dell if you need Windows. And of course, that's the big question

00:53:10   mark right now is how's Windows gonna run on this? It will, you know? Yeah, but I wonder I wonder

00:53:17   about that. To your point, how important is it? Yeah. How important is it? Because if, if, you

00:53:24   know, the old argument was it well, I'm not really into the Mac or not, my company is not in the Mac

00:53:28   ecosystem at all. Therefore, we need to run Windows. Whereas it not with any one particular

00:53:37   moment in history, but just general attrition over the last 10 years, stuff that of that

00:53:44   general cross platform, big company sort of stuff has just moved to the web. And, you know,

00:53:52   and even Microsoft is part of that, like to to Satya Nadella's credit, you know, they're no longer

00:53:58   everything on Windows all the time, you know, they've they've got a great cloud infrastructure

00:54:03   business that powers this stuff for other companies, and they have all sorts of their

00:54:06   own stuff that runs in browsers, or, you know, is a cross platform app like Skype and stuff like

00:54:14   that. So they're part of it, too. It's not like they've been left behind. But I just don't feel

00:54:19   like people need to run Windows. And then even if they do, I mean, clearly gaming would be a reason

00:54:24   and it'd be interesting to see how that works. But Windows just isn't Windows on ARM, just isn't

00:54:30   a thing like the way that Apple made it possible where you don't even have to worry about it and

00:54:36   everything just recompiles like it. I just don't know that that matters. And will people you know,

00:54:44   if they announce it and like, Oh, finally, I can install Windows on this M one MacBook and you do

00:54:50   it. I don't know that it's going to make you happy in the way that you think it was because

00:54:54   you may not have Oh, the games don't run it. The games I want to play don't run on ARM anyway.

00:54:59   Well, and I think you're bringing up the the big part of this review, which wasn't so positive. And

00:55:07   you know, it's maybe just for now as as apps start to make their way more into the App Store into the

00:55:12   Mac App Store, iOS and iPad apps make their way into the App Store. But those are just not great

00:55:18   to use right now. And that might be again, well, there's two points to that one, I didn't really

00:55:25   care that much. Like it was a place to ding Apple and say, these apps don't resize here. And you

00:55:32   definitely want you want to have a touchscreen. Oh, you're talking about the iPhone apps running

00:55:37   on the on the Mac, right, right. But I didn't it wasn't something to dwell on. A because the system

00:55:43   was so good and made so many improvements in other places. But be you have the web, as you mentioned,

00:55:50   and actually I reached out because I started doing a search, I just decided, okay, let me go through

00:55:55   my my popular iPhone, my iPhone apps and see if they're in the Mac App Store. And really, none of

00:55:59   them were there. So I reached out to Instagram and Snapchat and Tiktok. And I don't have them just

00:56:04   said, Oh, well, we have we have web apps, which, you know, feels like a little bit of a cop out of

00:56:08   an answer to me. But it was true, I could just use all those things on the web, which is the argument

00:56:14   you're making, which is, well, maybe the operating system doesn't fully matter. So much. It's like

00:56:18   the Chromebook argument. But also, then when I look at the apps that I really use on my Mac,

00:56:24   they're all things I do use on my iPhone, which are the Apple native apps. So I message which

00:56:31   works so much better in Big Sur notes, Apple music. I'm looking down across my toolbar right

00:56:40   now. Those are my main ones FaceTime. And all those work. You don't use mail, use like Gmail

00:56:47   or something like that. I use Gmail. Yeah. Let me take another break. And we'll come back because

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00:58:36   I think this iPhone app thing is, maybe it'll become something eventually. Maybe it's,

00:58:44   maybe it needed to ship in a weird, rough early state just to get developers on board.

00:58:50   But I don't know, it just, it feels very un-Apple-like to me to ship something that is so

00:58:56   pointless. Well, that's sort of, I guess what I was trying to make the point of it just like,

00:59:01   does it matter? Does it even matter that some of these apps are there? What is the killer iPhone app

00:59:07   that you want on your Mac? Right. And some people, and I've, you know, I mentioned this to people at

00:59:12   Apple and like, well, my bank has an app and it's better than their website. And it's like, oh,

00:59:17   all right, maybe, I don't know. But my bank has a website and if I'm on my computer, I'd rather just

00:59:22   do it on a website. Like, it just doesn't, it doesn't occur to me on my Mac to open,

00:59:30   you know, my bank names app. I would just go to the web and I.

00:59:34   I see it for some like utilities, right? Like I kept thinking like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't mind

00:59:40   having the Nest app because I'm constantly trying to adjust the thermometer in the basement.

00:59:44   I also want to say that if you do hear a fan noise in this episode, I am running my space heater

00:59:52   underneath my desk right now. My feet are very cold and I am constantly adjusting my thermometer

00:59:59   upstairs or sorry, it's not thermometer. It's my, what is the thing called? Thermostat. Thermostat.

01:00:05   That's the, that's the third word, the thermostat. So if you do hear it, it is not the computer.

01:00:13   It is the actual space heater under the desk. The weather here in the Northeast has been crazy

01:00:19   this week too. Right now, my watch says it's 63 degrees outside, which is nice. But like two days

01:00:25   ago, it was like 29 degrees here in Philadelphia. It was freezing, literally freezing. I know. And

01:00:30   that's why I turned the heat off this morning. I was like, why are we running the heat at 60

01:00:34   degrees out? But now I'm freezing in the basement. We've been, we've been manning the thermostat like

01:00:38   that nonstop because it's like all of a sudden we're all freezing and we look and we're like,

01:00:42   oh, the house is actually is freezing. We're not nuts. But anyway. Anyway, good weather break.

01:00:49   I could see that the, you know, we have a Nest too and the Nest app is kind of nice, you know,

01:00:55   on the phone. It really is like when you're sitting on the couch and it's like, you know,

01:01:00   it does feel like when I was a kid, like I grew up in the era when the TVs still didn't have remote

01:01:06   controls and it was like the greatest thing ever. We could switch the channel without getting up.

01:01:10   And now it's like, we can make the house warmer without getting up. This is amazing.

01:01:14   Well, I did just launch what I think is the most impressive iPhone app that you can get on the Mac,

01:01:24   the Dunkin Donuts app. It's funny, I had a line in my review, but it's true because I started just

01:01:32   doing a search of like, what apps can you get? I don't know what I typed in to the Mac App Store.

01:01:37   But it turns out every fast food app you can get on the Mac, like every single one of them is there.

01:01:44   Wendy's, Chick-fil-A, Dunkin Donuts, Burger King, Panda Express.

01:01:53   What can you do? Just pre-place your order and then go pick it up?

01:01:57   I guess so.

01:01:58   Right, because I've used the Starbucks app for that.

01:02:00   I think Starbucks is there. Oh no, I think Starbucks isn't there.

01:02:04   Yeah, so the gist of how it works is if you're the developer of an iOS app that doesn't have a Mac

01:02:13   app, just iPhone, maybe iPad, you know, nowadays, hopefully most of those apps support both because

01:02:18   they're the same app and they just scale to the screen. If you didn't do anything, then

01:02:23   your app would be available in the Mac App Store for Macs running on the M1. And then you can search

01:02:31   on the App Store for a name. And by default, it still only shows real Mac apps, but then you can

01:02:37   switch a little tab to say show iOS and iPad apps. And then they'll show up there too, and you can

01:02:42   download them. But if you don't want your app to appear like that, you can opt out of it. And

01:02:48   that's what you said, like Instagram opted out and TikTok and others. There apparently is a trick

01:02:55   though, where if you just download the app, I'm not even, I should know how to do this, but I've

01:03:01   forgotten how without iTunes. Remember you used to be able to back up your apps to iTunes,

01:03:05   and you'd have a copy of the IPA files on your Mac. If you just double click those or something

01:03:12   on your M1, you can run them even if they're not authorized to run. I don't know if it's

01:03:17   this is like a... Where do you get that from? I don't know. I'll put a link in the show notes

01:03:22   on how to do it, but there's a trick you can get to get like Instagram to run on your M1 Mac book,

01:03:28   but it's not meant for it. It doesn't, there's things that are missing. It doesn't work right.

01:03:33   I don't know why... My favorite thing is that all these fast food apps have verified.

01:03:42   Just search fast food. Everyone who listens, if you have an M1 Mac, just search fast food and

01:03:48   you will just see this is why they wanted to run iPhone apps on Mac, I think. So we could get our

01:03:54   fast food apps. Shake Shack. Oh, that's a good one. I don't want to start an East Coast, West

01:04:00   Coast argument with Shake Shack versus... What's that? No, not Five Guys. That's East Coast too.

01:04:05   In-N-Out is the one. Let's see. I bet it, I have it.

01:04:10   Yeah, I don't know. But in-N-Out's weird. They celebrate.

01:04:14   They have In-N-Out locator, yeah.

01:04:16   Yeah. It's funny because Dunkin' Donuts is all over the place. I mean, not even talking about

01:04:24   the Boston area where they're literally... I think it's like state law in Massachusetts where every

01:04:30   500 feet there has to be a Dunkin' Donuts. But New York, Philadelphia, they're all over the place

01:04:37   here. But I was talking to a friend who's been in California for years and he's never had Dunkin'

01:04:42   Donuts coffee. And I'm like, I'm not a huge Dunkin' Donuts fan, but I like their coffee. But the

01:04:47   miracle of Dunkin' Donuts coffee is 24 hours a day, seven days a week, if they're open. Any Dunkin'

01:04:54   Donuts, anywhere you go, the coffee is exactly the same. It is always 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

01:05:03   Speaking of needing a fan, their coffee is always hotter than you can possibly believe

01:05:10   coffee can get. How is it not boiling? It should be-

01:05:13   You know what they should make? They should make an Intel version of a Dunkin' Donuts coffee. It's

01:05:18   a new brand. Oh, would you like your Intel hot?

01:05:23   Yeah. But it always tastes the same and it always tastes pretty good. And it also doesn't taste

01:05:29   quite like anybody else's coffee. It's very clearly, I could Pepsi Challenge it any day of the

01:05:34   week. And it's always good. It's always Dunkin'. It's not the greatest, but it's just plain. And

01:05:40   when you order it, you don't have to order the light roast or the dark roast or that roast.

01:05:45   You just get coffee and it's great. I get the iced coffee there, so I don't know really that

01:05:51   much about the hot. They have great iced coffee. And again, I like the Dunkin' Donuts iced coffee,

01:05:56   always tastes exactly the same. I'm really happy it could be on the show to get you a Dunkin'

01:06:00   Donuts sponsorship after this. I know they should. It's, you know-

01:06:03   I'm really happy to have been here for this to help you get to them.

01:06:08   It's like the McDonald's French fries of coffee, except sometimes you'll get cold

01:06:14   McDonald's French fries, right? They should have thrown them out and replaced them. But it's like,

01:06:18   Dunkin' Donuts, you're never going to get a cold coffee. That's true. Whenever I'm on a road trip

01:06:23   or whenever we drive upstate, I always am like, "We'll just go to the Dunkin' Donuts on the road

01:06:27   because I know it will be reliable and good." Yeah, it's always good. And they have very sturdy

01:06:32   cups, you know? And it's all good. Dunkin' Donuts, very good. They should expand to the

01:06:38   West Coast. Move some of those Massachusetts ones up there. Are we done with the sponsor break?

01:06:42   Oh, yeah. Yeah, Dunkin' Didn't sponsor. This is all free. I just give away good words to

01:06:48   Dunkin' Donuts. I don't get it. I don't get the thing. But I knew I wanted to do the break and

01:06:56   talk about this because I feel like the next controversy would be if we did not have an

01:07:04   argument about touch screens. Oh, yeah, we need to have that.

01:07:07   And it's related to the iPhone app thing, right? Because the people who want to see touch screens

01:07:13   on Apple MacBooks also are saying, "Well, wait, if you're going to let these phone apps run and

01:07:20   the phone apps assume you have a touch screen, why shouldn't the Mac also have a touch screen?"

01:07:25   Right. And I don't want to bring up Dunkin' Donuts again, but I'm going to because I'm looking at

01:07:28   this app on my screen right now. And it sucks to navigate this with the mouse. And I just want to

01:07:36   click on this thing right here that says, "Locate my closest Dunkin' Donuts." And that would be a

01:07:41   lot easier than clicking around to it. My example, and I didn't choose this to be a jerk and try to

01:07:50   find a bad app. It's like Apple themselves have shown the HBO Max. Why don't they just call it

01:07:59   HBO? God almighty, it's the dumbest thing in the world. Right after Rudy Giuliani's shoe polish

01:08:07   hair dye. Why would you put that on your head before? Was that confirmed to be that?

01:08:13   I don't know. Somebody, nobody's... There's a lot of... Yeah. Somebody said it was mascara,

01:08:18   that mascara is a trick. If you're an older gentleman and you've got graying sideburns

01:08:23   and you can touch them up before a TV hit with mascara. It's funny. I saw it running. I was in

01:08:29   the city yesterday and I was in an elevator and I saw it and I was like, "Oh, it must be like a

01:08:34   crack in the screen." That's what it looked like. I didn't realize. It was a quick fleeting elevator

01:08:41   ride and you see it and I'm like, "Huh, maybe the screen is cracked. It looks like something is

01:08:46   dripping down his face, but it must be a television crack." And then I just saw it on Twitter last

01:08:54   night and I was like, "Oh my God, it was a screen crack. It's actually something screaming down his

01:08:58   face." It's one of the great mysteries of the world. All right, now I've got this HBO Max.

01:09:05   You go on with HBO Max. I downloaded it. I don't know. I don't know what they're doing

01:09:09   differently, but I've got it. I'm literally using it as I speak to you right now and it's on the

01:09:16   iPad. And when I scroll a list on the iPad by touching the screen and flicking, it scrolls like

01:09:23   the way you would think an iPad app would scroll. It has momentum and you can zip. If it's a long

01:09:29   list, you can flick your finger and it goes real fast. When I ran the HBO Max app on my Mac,

01:09:35   and again, the mystery of the world is why in the world they didn't just call this new service HBO,

01:09:40   which is a well-known brand, but whatever. It's HBO Max and it's got a bunch of crap.

01:09:45   To the Max.

01:09:46   Yeah, and it's got a bunch of crap that's not HBO thrown in. The scrolling is horrible.

01:09:53   It feels, it actually, and it's, you know, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It feels

01:09:56   like going back to like your laptop reviews from 10 years ago where you would be like,

01:10:02   well, this, you know, is a good PC laptop for X, Y, and Z, but the trackpad is horrible. It doesn't

01:10:08   scroll, you know.

01:10:09   Yep. 100%.

01:10:10   That's what, that's what the HBO Max app running on the M1 MacBook was like. And, and for me,

01:10:18   I have HBO Max, but we get it through our, we have, we still have cable TV and we pay for HBO.

01:10:24   And if you pay for HBO, then you get a free account on HBO Max, but you have to sign in

01:10:30   through your cable provider. Well, guess who my cable provider is Xfinity. Guess where Xfinity is

01:10:36   on a list of cable providers in North America. And they have all of them. There's a lot of

01:10:42   cable providers in North America. Mine is at the bottom of the list and I'm just sitting there with

01:10:48   two fingers on the trackpad scrolling and scrolling and it's like moving two names at a time. And I

01:10:55   was like, Oh my God. And I was like, well, wait, maybe I can type, you know, X because, you know,

01:11:00   like in a real Mac app, you can jump to the X.

01:11:02   Oh yeah, that's true.

01:11:03   And of course not because it's an iPhone app.

01:11:05   Did you hear the little bloop?

01:11:06   Yeah, you just hear it. Yeah. You just, or maybe I don't...

01:11:08   I love the new little bloops in Big Sur.

01:11:10   Oh, I love the sounds.

01:11:12   Yeah, the sounds are great. Yeah.

01:11:13   It's like you hear like a bloop and you're like, that's an error, but I feel

01:11:17   really like, thank you for making that error sound so nice to me. Like I'm pissed. Like I'm

01:11:22   pissed that that thing won't do what I asked, but thank you for making it sound so gentle and nice.

01:11:27   Yeah, it's very nice. I'll sit there and hit the delete key when you can't delete anything.

01:11:35   It just made me so angry. And the icing on the cake, of course, is that Xfinity is owned by

01:11:43   Comcast and it's just, they rebranded their cable service as Xfinity because they thought it sounded

01:11:49   cool. And maybe the name Comcast started having negative connotations in people's heads, but if

01:11:54   they had still been named Comcast, I would have gotten to it so much sooner. And I'm like, well,

01:12:01   wait, this is insane. Like why would their scrolling be so bad? And then I looked on the

01:12:07   iPhone and when you're using actual touch on the actual iPhone, the scrolling is very fast. And

01:12:13   when you're somehow, whatever's going on with the interaction where the trackpad gestures are faking

01:12:22   touch, it works terribly in HBO Max, but that's not universal across all apps. Like, so I use

01:12:28   Marco Arman's Overcast podcast player and his app, you know, Overcast is written like with standard

01:12:36   UI kit controls and scrolling a list of podcasts in Overcast on the Mac works exactly as you'd think.

01:12:43   You know, it feels like you're scrolling in a Mac app and it has momentum. And when you flick your

01:12:48   fingers fast, it goes fast. Like something about the HBO Max app is doing something custom that

01:12:55   works for real touch on a real iOS device and does not work here. But Apple's the one telling me that

01:13:03   HBO Max is a good example of an app to try. The window isn't resizable and it's like a little,

01:13:09   it's like a little postcard size window. And are the windows resizable on any of these? I haven't

01:13:14   found one to be resizable. Overcast is if you try it. Yeah. Even if you don't use Overcast,

01:13:19   normally you just download, you can download it for free and try it. Yeah. And I guess that's

01:13:26   some tweaks that Marco and his team made. Yeah. Because like all of the ones I've been using are

01:13:32   mostly iPad apps and those are not resizable. And I went to go play like Subway Surfers

01:13:38   and it's so on and they're, I guess, written their apps it's like vertical on iPad orientation because

01:13:47   it actually intersects with the toolbar at the bottom of the dock and you can't resize. So you

01:13:54   have to shrink your dock to play. Because it's covered up. Right. It's a very good experience,

01:14:02   I have to say. It all works and you understand, you know, this is the way there's been technology

01:14:08   companies that have, well, if it works, ship it, has been a mindset ever since technology has been

01:14:15   a thing. But it's certainly not, it's the opposite of the Apple way. Apple's way has always been,

01:14:20   well, we'll do a lot less, but what we do is going to work really nice. And we'd rather not do a

01:14:25   thing at all than do it in a half-assed way. And these apps are just half-assed. And the ones you

01:14:33   really want, like Netflix, not there. Not there. Right. TikTok, not there. I mean, this is, so this

01:14:39   is why I ask, why not just put a touch screen on? And I guess your argument's going to be that that's

01:14:46   not an Apple thing to do. But let me just say, I spent quite a bit of time on the, on a Pixelbook

01:14:54   and I would say I use the touch screen on that 10% of the time. But when I do use it,

01:15:05   it's like, I reach up, I scroll, I tap, and this is with Android apps on there. I'm out.

01:15:12   I'm back to the touch pad. I'm back to the keyboard to do what I need to do.

01:15:16   I think that's the model that should be on the Mac. And I just ask, why not? Why don't they

01:15:22   just do that? It would solve a lot of the problems we're talking about right now.

01:15:25   So it, my argument, I think I speak to why they haven't. Well, number one, maybe they will,

01:15:32   right? And I definitely am not betting that they never will. I mean, I guess I want to get in on

01:15:39   our bet. We have a bet me, Dieter and Eli. I probably should get in on it. I don't know how

01:15:45   do we make a four way bet though? We haven't really figured out the rules. We just all said

01:15:49   when we think it's coming and then how much money? I would still wager against them doing it, but I

01:15:54   would not wager, I like to bet lots of money, but I would not bet a lot of money on it. I would bet

01:15:59   a little bit of money that they were never going to ship touch screen Macs. Or maybe, you know,

01:16:05   by some definition of never, that's like, let's say five years. Because who knows, five years from

01:16:11   now, who knows what the heck is going on? I think they won't. I think that I get it. I get that if

01:16:20   you just want to scroll, like you have a big old browser window and you just want to touch the

01:16:25   screen and flick it and scroll up that if you could just reach out and touch your screen the

01:16:29   way you touch the iPad, it should just work and people want to do it. My argument against it is,

01:16:37   and if that's all Apple did, if they said, don't change anything else, we're just going to make

01:16:43   the screen respond to touch, then that would, to me would be the, okay, I can live with that

01:16:50   way of Apple adding touch to Mac OS. I wouldn't use it personally very often. When I have my iPad

01:16:58   in the Magic Keyboard, it's not like I'm purposefully not touching the screen. I just

01:17:02   don't find myself doing it. I just use the trackpad.

01:17:05   See, and I think Big Sur, I mean, I said this in my review, is just like, it is asking for

01:17:12   a touch screen. Like these widgets and these swipeable notifications are just screaming out,

01:17:17   please swipe me away. And I find that on the touchpad, it's quite annoying to be

01:17:23   swiping away these notifications all the time. Now, I'm not saying I always want to be reaching

01:17:27   up to swipe away those notifications. I'm just saying touch for swiping away notifications or

01:17:33   touch for tapping on some of these bigger interface that they've built in the sort of

01:17:37   the control panel thing. I love this little thing now they have.

01:17:41   The control center or notification center. I don't even know what they call it in the Mac.

01:17:45   The thing that you get when you click the time in the upper right corner.

01:17:49   Well that, but now you have this little like control center thing, which has like,

01:17:53   do not disturb and keyboard brightness, which I love.

01:17:57   Right.

01:17:57   Like those are slider that like that wants me to swipe that wants my finger to be used,

01:18:04   put my finger on it right now I'm doing it, I'm touching the screen and pull it down the

01:18:07   screen brightness. I mean, that looks like it was designed for my finger.

01:18:10   But most of the, but the some of the new stuff does, but I think it's just,

01:18:15   it's just an aesthetic look to make it look like it now the

01:18:18   sun and some of the stuff is cross platform, like the the widgets that you get, you know,

01:18:25   like you can say, Oh, give me a calendar widget over there in the, the notification center thing

01:18:30   are written cross platform with the new thing Apple has called Swift UI and the same Swift UI

01:18:37   that makes a widget that you can put on your desktop on your phone is the same code you use

01:18:42   to make one that runs on the Mac. And therefore, yeah, it does look like they're laid out to be

01:18:48   friendly for touch. But most of the Mac interface isn't right. And I and and so many people seem to

01:18:55   think all of Big Sur was redesigned and respaced for touch. But it wasn't like the menu bar is

01:19:00   still tiny. The distance between regular menus, like when you go down, you know, like the file

01:19:05   menu, and it's file edit view, you know, whatever. Those those items are all like half the height

01:19:12   that they would be for touch to be touch friendly. Like when you look at something that's

01:19:16   true, I'm looking at all that right now. You're right. It's Yeah, you know, I wouldn't want to

01:19:20   touch any of that it. The red, yellow, green buttons that close. I always forget what yellow

01:19:28   yellow minimize. It's like, nobody uses yellow, people close people zoom, for old yellow in the

01:19:34   middle. I just I always use a keyboard shortcut for that. But they're not spaced for that. There's

01:19:41   some and there's all sorts of apps with toolbars that are, you know, pro apps that and the argument

01:19:47   is so what, okay, just leave all the spacing the same. And people with touchscreen Macs will learn

01:19:54   well don't do that. Don't try to touch the yellow button in between red and green because it's so

01:19:59   small. Just use the trackpad for that. But then you can use touch when you do want to reach a

01:20:04   thing that is a big fat target like oh, there's a big notification that just came in the upper

01:20:08   right corner. I just want to flick it away. I get it. And if they did it that way that like I said,

01:20:14   that would be my I could live with it way. But that's not really the Apple way like the Apple

01:20:19   way is if they're going to support touch, they're going to make it a touch friendly interface. And

01:20:23   if they're going to make it a touch friendly interface, then everything has to be bigger

01:20:26   and spread apart like the iPad. And that to me would take away from the information density of

01:20:34   the Mac. I don't think you know, so it's a very valid argument. And that's and that's

01:20:40   the argument that I really do here and I think is very, is very realistic that they wouldn't do it.

01:20:46   But on the other hand, on the other hand, it is and you know, it's a marketing point, you know,

01:20:54   the makers of other laptops definitely make ads that say, you know, our laptops have

01:20:59   touchscreens, there's don't and we know who they're talking about when they say they

01:21:04   people do reach up, I know, you know, and so I'm not I am against it. But I'm not like,

01:21:09   this isn't a zealot tree thing for me. And as long as they don't ask developers to rejigger

01:21:16   everything to make it touch friendly, which to me would really take away truly take away from Mac.

01:21:22   Fine. You know, if you want to just say we have a touchscreen and it's good for scrolling and

01:21:26   for flicking notifications, and you really shouldn't use it for other stuff. Okay.

01:21:31   And I guess and you know, maybe the pencil is sort of like that on iPad already. And

01:21:37   because it's not, you know, the iPad is definitely touch first, and the pencil does lots of things.

01:21:43   But it's not a stylus driven interface. And if I remember when when the pencil first came out,

01:21:49   and you couldn't even click buttons with it, it was like,

01:21:51   it was really just meant for writing or for for drawing work and artwork,

01:21:58   right. So like, if you had like a notification came up and with an OK and a cancel button,

01:22:03   and you had the pencil in your hand, and you tapped on OK, nothing happened,

01:22:06   right, you needed to use your finger, right. And it wasn't a bug. That was how it was designed.

01:22:11   And it's because Apple is thinking what I'm describing where if it's going to be

01:22:16   a touch interface, it should be touch. And if we were going to make a pencil stylus driven

01:22:22   interface, everything would be stylus first across the board. And eventually, I think they kind of

01:22:28   realized, well, this is kind of annoying when you have the pencil in your hand and just want to tap

01:22:32   the button. So that would be the way that if they add touch to the Mac, I, I hope that it would go

01:22:39   where it's like, sure, the pencil still even today, pencil still doesn't do everything.

01:22:43   It's definitely not a pencil first interface on the iPad. But now it's like, okay, we'll give in,

01:22:48   we'll let you tap buttons and stuff like that with the pencil. Yeah, I guess I see it as like,

01:22:54   I mean, the Magic Keyboard has come so far for the iPad, and it really does serve, it's better

01:23:01   than just an accessory at this point, right? You can really do use that as like, a primary mode of

01:23:07   input. And I think that that's not what it would be here, it would be a secondary mode of input that

01:23:16   you would sometimes use and have at your disposal for these interactions. But I really do hear that

01:23:25   that's a tough marketing point to make. And also, if Apple is going to do it, it's got to say it's

01:23:30   doing it for a reason, because that's what they do. And there's got to be something behind it that

01:23:35   makes it magical or special. Yeah. So I would say I think that if these apps were better,

01:23:45   I would be more inclined to say they really need to do it. So maybe it's also a wait and see thing.

01:23:52   Let's see how the iPhone and iPad apps make their way and if they do make their way and if they're

01:23:57   better. But yeah, I'm with you. I'd like that sort of HBO Max situation or the resizing of these

01:24:04   games. Or I also tried Among Us, which is great to have on here if you on the Mac if you love playing

01:24:12   that game, but it's not ideal for playing. Yeah. Does it does that have a resizable window? My son

01:24:20   plays that game. And if anybody, you know, who's like me and is out of touch with the state of the

01:24:25   art of gaming, Among Us is this really cool collaborative game. Do you want to describe it

01:24:29   because you've played it? I've watched my son play it. I was like, Oh my god, I would be so into that

01:24:34   if I were your age. I'm told that I just turned it on and all I hear is blasting music. How do I

01:24:39   turn the volume down on it? I don't know. No, you can't resize it. I just opened it to make sure but

01:24:45   at least that one fits within like the screen window. So you're not like having to resize other

01:24:50   windows to play it. I don't know how the best way to describe it. It's basically like a murder

01:24:56   mystery game. It's right and you play it, you know, get a group of friends or maybe you play

01:25:02   with strangers, but then one of you is randomly assigned to be the killer, but nobody else nobody

01:25:06   knows who the killer is. You just know if it's you or not and then you have to run around this

01:25:11   game and try to figure out who the killer is. Right? Yeah, exactly. That's exactly it. And I

01:25:15   actually only played it for the first time on here and then me and my wife, I was like, we were just

01:25:20   trying to test. I was trying to show her I was testing all these apps and then she became really

01:25:23   into it and so now she's playing on her iPhone all day long. Yeah. My son plays with his friends and

01:25:29   it's like it's one of those games where it's like this actually sounds healthy and this sounds like

01:25:33   healthy gameplay. Like some of the stuff like when he's shooting people, it's like, maybe we should,

01:25:39   maybe he's 17, but it's, or he's almost 17, but it's like, maybe we should. Yeah. Can you believe

01:25:43   that? Geez. You met him when he was like four, right? Yeah. Wow. Every time we podcast, you

01:25:48   always like tell me, I'm like, how did he just get five years older? I know he's 16 going on 17 and

01:25:54   it's like, but when he's playing Among Us, it just sounds, and it really warms my heart because it's

01:26:00   like, Oh my God, to be 16 and not be able to see your friends. And it's like, Oh, they're all just

01:26:04   having fun. And everybody can play whether they have PCs or Macs or people are, some of those

01:26:09   friends are playing on phones and it's, uh, but they're just, do they FaceTime like when they're

01:26:13   playing or something? Yeah. I don't know what I, I, I forget. Discourse. I think that's, what's

01:26:19   nice about it. Yeah. Discourse. Like it's like, it's, it's social in the sense that like there

01:26:24   isn't a social layer built into the game. You kind of have to go through a different route and then

01:26:28   communicate. And, um, yeah, I did it play with some random people, which was funny, but yeah,

01:26:34   but it's a really great game. But yeah. And so, yeah, now you can play it on the Mac if you have

01:26:39   a Mac and it's great and it's, you know, it's, I, but a lot of this stuff touches, not a magic,

01:26:45   if, if they had, if they just secretly said, you know what, guess what? Surprise. These M1 Mac

01:26:50   books do have touchscreens. We were just waiting for big Sur 11.2 and now it's, we've enabled it

01:26:57   and there it's on, um, it wouldn't magically make these iOS apps running on big Sur better.

01:27:03   It might make some things better. I'm guessing the H my HBO scrolling thing would, would work. Um,

01:27:10   but a lot of it would be better, but a lot of, and a lot of the iPhone games in particular

01:27:18   are specifically, it's not just that they're designed for touch. They're designed to be a

01:27:22   little thing in your hand, you know? Yep. Uh, I don't know. I mean, most of the, the most of

01:27:29   the things that I see that actually are successfully ported over are not iPhone apps,

01:27:32   they're iPad apps. And that's likely because those developers already had done, made some tweaks for

01:27:39   keyboard and mouse. Um, and this was just the easiest way. And if you've got an iPad Apple,

01:27:44   yeah, you've got a bigger screen here anyway, so why not use the iPad app? And Facebook has their

01:27:48   iPad app, uh, iPad app in store and it's actually pretty good. Um, I've been using that and, you

01:27:55   know, besides from the little frustration that it keeps telling me to open iOS, the messenger app,

01:28:00   which doesn't exist, um, it's pretty good. You know, it's a nice way. What does it, does it like

01:28:07   keeps telling me install and then I go to hit install and then it tells me that's not available

01:28:12   for your Mac operating system. It's a nice, it's just a loop that goes around and around every day

01:28:18   and I can't get it to go away. It's maddening to have the like two little dots that say have

01:28:21   two messages in there. All right, let me take a break here and thank our third and final sponsor

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01:30:21   talk show when you pay. What else do we want to talk about? I know that it's weird. I'm doing

01:30:29   Apple's news. This whole eight weeks has been insane for Apple and not because...

01:30:35   And me. And you, I'm sure.

01:30:38   Yeah, it's crazy. I'm just glad. If they had sent me both a MacBook Air and... I mean,

01:30:44   they sent Jason Snell all three. They sent him an Air. And again, this is sort of like to open the

01:30:50   curtain a little. It's like they just send you stuff. They don't really ask. It wasn't like,

01:30:56   "Hey, which one do you want, John?" They were like, "We'll send hardware tomorrow. Here, sign

01:31:01   this NDA." And I signed the NDA. And then the next day, ding dong, here's FedEx. And I had a MacBook

01:31:05   Pro. They sent Jason Snell all three. I wouldn't have even opened the other two. I just don't have

01:31:12   time. Right. I have to say I was very happy to have both, mostly because I think it was important

01:31:19   for me to tell consumers, "Here's the difference, the $200 price difference. Here's the difference

01:31:26   for you." But it was a lot more work, for sure. And yeah, I've just been exhausted, really, is all I

01:31:37   have to say here. And four phones... Four phones was just too much. It was just too much. With

01:31:44   radically different... Not just like, "Oh, four different colors." I mean, and I know we've got...

01:31:51   I'll do a phone show next episode of this show. But I had to talk about the Max first, and I had

01:31:57   to have you on because you're like my... That's why they put us on CNBC together. We're partners in

01:32:05   this. We're laptop partners. By the way, I meant to say $300 difference, price difference. I'm very

01:32:10   tired. I'm so tired. I'm so sick and tired. I am so excited about next week. I was like to not have...

01:32:17   I mean, it's hard to complain because these have been so fun to do. It is fun. It is super fun.

01:32:22   But it is so much work. And back to back to back. And it was like... And everybody knew...

01:32:28   Apple announced to WWDC that they're doing this big transition later this year, which is Apple speak

01:32:34   for the end of the year. But they've had Mac events in the last few years in December. And the Mac

01:32:42   Pro, which everybody had been waiting for for so long, came out the very end of the year. And

01:32:47   I think the iMac Pro the year before or two years before, whenever that was, was in December. So the

01:32:54   idea that maybe we wouldn't hear about these things until after Thanksgiving was definitely

01:32:59   possible. But if it was going to be before Thanksgiving, it had to be at the beginning

01:33:07   of November because they couldn't have had the event two days ago because then the reviews would

01:33:13   all be coming out Thanksgiving weekend. That doesn't work. And so it was like, oh, exciting.

01:33:20   They're going to have the Mac event on November 5th or whatever the date was. And it's like,

01:33:26   well, wait a minute. I just got done writing about all these iPhones. I'm not even done. I've got

01:33:33   reader comments to go through and follow up on their questions. I haven't even had a chance. And

01:33:38   now I've got to do this thing. It's terribly exciting, but it's been an avalanche of stuff

01:33:43   to review. Yeah. And I mean, it's, I think it's everything was such a leap. I mean,

01:33:48   luckily the watch was not such a leap this year. You know, I'm going to say like, thank you. Thank

01:33:55   you, Apple, honestly. Right. Blood, blood, blood oxygen level. Okay. There you go. Yeah. Screen.

01:34:02   Right. Right. Actually, I just wrote our, we were writing our holiday gift guide and I was like,

01:34:06   the best thing about the watch this year is the solo loop band, the end. Yeah. That's what I

01:34:11   wrote most about too. And I don't think that's because they ignored it. I think the watch is in

01:34:16   such a good place and that, you know, don't mess with success. We added another sensor and we've

01:34:21   got a loop and that's great. And it's like, oh, thank God I can move on to these other products.

01:34:26   But the phones were so significant though. I have to say, I thought there would be much bigger

01:34:32   interest in some of the phones. At least, you know, just from readers, it's always very interesting to

01:34:37   me to see which products readers really gravitate towards. You know, the 5G upgrade was news. It was

01:34:45   big news. They focused a lot on it. That was like a lot of testing work. They had a different size.

01:34:53   I mean, it was such a significant iPhone upgrade. And then they also had the HomePod in there,

01:34:58   which was, you know, that was big too. A $99 HomePod, a $99 anything from Apple's pretty big

01:35:03   deal. And then these laptops, which are just like really spectacular. It's just like, it was

01:35:11   exhausting. So I agree. I still haven't written about it. And like the, my, my, I'll spoil it. My

01:35:18   bum thumbs down review of the season is for the, the MagSafe Duo charger. Oh yeah. Same. I haven't

01:35:26   written. I haven't even taken it out of the box. Oh, it's, but it, it, it works fine, I guess,

01:35:31   but it's $130 and it doesn't come with a wall adapter. So it, and it wants the 20 watt adapter

01:35:39   because it charges both things at once. But even with it, it does still doesn't charge

01:35:45   the iPhone at the full 15 Watts that the standalone MagSafe cable does. So you're still not getting,

01:35:52   and again, if it's, I don't know what it is. I saw a thing on Mac rumors about it. And, and if

01:35:57   you're charging overnight, who cares if it's at the full 15 Watts, if it's close, you know,

01:36:01   and, and if you're really into, I need to charge fast, you shouldn't be using the wireless at all.

01:36:07   The wireless at all. But still it's $130 and needs a $20 adapter. It's 150 bucks. And why not just

01:36:16   use the, the watch, the watch thing that came with your watch and the $40 MagSafe thing and that's it

01:36:24   and you're done. I can't believe it's $130. Even the $40 MagSafe thing to me seems like a ripoff,

01:36:29   frankly. It feels like it should be cheaper because it feels like it's just a cable. And I

01:36:35   know it's not just a cable. And the cable is short. I have to say I made a point of this in

01:36:39   my iPhone 12 review. The cable is very short and is really not usable to put next to the side of

01:36:44   your bed unless your nightstand is super short. And if you have a short nightstand, that's great

01:36:49   for you, but I don't have a short nightstand. It's not a tiny nightstand. Okay. I have a

01:36:53   gigantic nightstand. It's beautiful. No, it's like to use my phone while I'm in bed, I have to like

01:36:59   stick my hand out over the side. Right. Right. I'm like huddled on the side of my giant nightstand,

01:37:05   apparently. Oh, and then the other thing, have you done this where it's like, if you try to,

01:37:10   if you pull it a little bit further to get a little bit closer to you, it won't yank out of

01:37:15   the wall. Of course, what happens is the magnetic connector separates, right? I mean, because what's

01:37:20   the, you know, it is MagSafe, you know, so you, you pull the phone a little bit closer. And of course,

01:37:27   it's this big, heavy, I mean, by the standards of you're in bed, it's this big, heavy disc and it

01:37:33   falls and makes noise and wakes up your partner in bed. And it's like, uh, sorry.

01:37:40   But what you've also just described is like, it actually should just plug into the wall.

01:37:44   Like it just is a normal plug into the wall. Because that's what you have, you're using it,

01:37:49   you're using it as if it's plugged in. But anyway, 140 for that plus a charger. The HomePod Mini is

01:37:57   99 bucks and comes with the 20 watt charger. Can you believe it? It comes with the charger right

01:38:02   in the box for $99. People should just be buying HomePod Minis for the chargers. It is.

01:38:10   I did not realize that, by the way. You just told me that.

01:38:13   To me, they perfectly, uh, it's like the two counter, counter ends of the Apple value chain

01:38:22   for this year's products is on the one end, you've got this really nice little speaker,

01:38:28   um, that to me sounds great. I, you know, I've, I've seen people who've reviewed more of all of

01:38:34   the various products in this space who have slightly different rankings of which ones sound

01:38:40   best, but at the very, nobody says it sounds bad. It sounds pretty good. The base isn't shockingly

01:38:46   good. You know, if there's anything that's short of its base, but it sounds good. 99 bucks. And it

01:38:51   comes with a 21 charger. On the other hand, the duo charger thing for charging your watch and

01:38:56   your phone at the same time is $130 and doesn't come with the charger. And all it does is charge

01:39:02   two things that, ah, it just feels so much more expensive than it should be. It's, and I don't

01:39:09   want to go back to the max, but the max do ship with the charger, but those are gigantic chargers

01:39:15   for what they do. Yeah. I did this. I did a piece a couple of months when the charger thing happened

01:39:22   when Apple stopped shipping the chargers. And this is, I mean, I don't know who is in charge of

01:39:28   Apple's charging ecosystem, but my assumption is that actually the teams don't talk, right?

01:39:34   And so the team that does the chargers for the max are doing the chargers for the max. And then

01:39:38   the team that's doing the charger for the watch and the phone, maybe they talk because they worked

01:39:44   on your really wonderful product, the $130 MagSafe Duo project. They must've worked on that together.

01:39:50   But these things don't work together. And what needs to be made is a central Apple charger,

01:39:58   a corded charger that can power all of these things and is a smaller charger, a GAN charger,

01:40:04   which is the, you know, the new, the new hype around chargers and has a couple of USB-C spots

01:40:11   in it. That's right. Right. That's right. So that's what I'm using. I'm using an anchor or no,

01:40:15   an AUG key, a hundred watt charger. That's the size of, um, something in between one of the

01:40:22   Mac chargers and the 20 watt Apple charger. I got it. I got it. I'll send you this link. I

01:40:29   recommended this. Um, but I, you know, look, am I applying to be the head of Apple chargers? Maybe.

01:40:35   Um, but like, it's time to do some work here. There, there, you know, if we're going to wrap

01:40:40   up on something chargers is it, cause you did a deep dive on it. Um, right before these things

01:40:45   came out, which is welcome. Right. Like, and I know you and I have a past appearance on this

01:40:50   show. We, I got you, I got you, uh, revved up on cables. Remember I sent you over to monospace.

01:40:57   And I feel like we've got the cable situation more under control these days. Um, now that it's,

01:41:04   you know, everything is USB-C or the phone is lightning and that's, um, not to derail this on

01:41:11   whether the phone should also be USB-C, but at least we've got it down to two things. We know

01:41:16   that the high-speed chargers all take USB-C out. Um, the thing that we need is I need,

01:41:22   we need chargers that are smaller. Why is Apple's 20 watt charger so big compared to the Aukey and

01:41:28   Anker ones? It's ridiculous. The Aukey and Anker ones are almost, and by prac, I think practically

01:41:34   speaking, you can say they're the same size as the classic Apple five watt dice charger. Right.

01:41:41   And also what's still happening is that this is, this is what's baffling to me. They're still

01:41:46   selling the Apple five watt charger for the same price as the 20 watt charger.

01:41:50   Which is nuts. It's still $19. They should give them away. Remember when they first took out the

01:41:58   headphone port and then they, you could like go in the Apple store and they, it was like,

01:42:01   it was like $5. It was the literally famously, the cheapest thing Apple has ever sold in its

01:42:07   retail stores were those headphone to lightning adapters. Um, it was as close as they're ever

01:42:13   going to come to giving something away. That's what they should do with those five. But the

01:42:17   margins, like I just picture whenever they sell one of these five watt chargers, a man or woman

01:42:22   in Cupertino just cheering every time they sell one, they're like the margins, the margins.

01:42:29   Like they're just, there's some little old accountant looking guy who's got like one of

01:42:34   those green eye shades on and it's like his whole job is just making money on these incredibly,

01:42:39   you know, and they've probably got like 50 zillion of them that they already made, you know,

01:42:44   and they're just sitting there and they just keep shipping them off and they're the smallest thing

01:42:48   ever. The only thing, no one, no consumers have really ever understand, I mean, people that are

01:42:53   into phones and understand, get that like this five watt charger has been horrible. And I,

01:42:58   you know, I definitely dramatized the killing of this thing and the video that I did, but I've had

01:43:05   such hate for this thing for many years because people just assume this is like the way they

01:43:10   should charge their phone with this tiny little charger that is, oh, like that is now that could

01:43:16   be that same size, could charge your phone five times as fast if it was, had the right technology

01:43:23   in it. And I, for years, I was less critical of it still being included by default than most people,

01:43:32   you know, like you, most of the fellow tech press, because I know, I heard from people who said that,

01:43:38   you know, I wanted one, but my wife loves the size and, you know, and people who say, or even people

01:43:44   who know the tech, they're like, I have to charge at, you know, wherever they go. There's, there's

01:43:50   this one little spot in the wall and that's it. And a big charger won't fit. And this is perfect.

01:43:56   That's, but that argument is over now because these 20 watt chargers from Anker and Aukey,

01:44:03   just to name two brands, I've bought both of them and love them both. And they're both also 20 bucks.

01:44:08   So you, it is another one of these things like, just like I said about these Mac books,

01:44:12   where it's like, have your cake and eat it too. It's the same price or cheaper. They're like 16 to

01:44:18   $17. They are the same size as the classic five watt charger and they charge at 20 watts. And

01:44:26   that's what you want. You know, that gives you the full speed charging to your phone.

01:44:30   It charges MagSafe at the full speed. There's no loss. You pay even a dollar or two less than what

01:44:39   Apple charges. You get a way smaller charger than the Apple 20 watt charger and you get the full

01:44:44   speed. It's, but no brainer, but it makes me wonder. I've been, you know, I wrote about it.

01:44:49   They're not using those little 21 ones. Aren't using GAN, G-A-N. No, right. They're doing

01:44:57   something else, but why isn't Apple doing it? And, you know, I don't know, maybe somebody could take

01:45:02   it apart and figure that the Apple one is over engineered for safety or something. But like,

01:45:06   I've been using the Anker and Aukey ones extensively for a couple of weeks, ever since

01:45:10   you wrote about it. And neither one of them gets warm or anything like that.

01:45:15   If you do notice what happened is Apple changed. So the current 20 watt charger used to be 18 watts.

01:45:24   Yes. Right. And so they upped it to 20 watts. So it's not like they didn't do anything to

01:45:28   that charger this year. I just think they really want to push the MagSafe. Yeah. And there's

01:45:36   something with that though, like you said, that their charging teams aren't communicating.

01:45:41   Like, yeah, they're definitely not communicating. Well, some, the 20 watt and 18 watt from last year,

01:45:48   this year's 20 watt Apple charger and last year's 18 watt, you have to have good eyes to see the

01:45:55   difference. The new one does say 20 watt. The 18 watt doesn't even say 18 watt. It has like a

01:46:02   blank spot on the underside where the new one now says 20 watt. The only way you could really tell

01:46:08   that it's 18 watt is to read the tiny little fine print that is A, tiny and B, like 3% gray

01:46:16   text on a white background. And it says like two amps times nine volts. And you have to know that

01:46:22   you multiply volts times amps to get. Yeah. I mean, the main, the big question for anyone

01:46:31   working in Apple's charging unit, which I'm not sure is even a real thing is why not one charger

01:46:38   to charge all the Apple gadgets? Well, or at least all of them up to MacBook Pros, right? Because the,

01:46:47   so like the MacBook Air comes with a 30 watt charger and 30 watt is, you know, like 30 watt

01:46:52   to me is the dividing line between consumer technology and the chargers that are over 30

01:46:58   watt. I forget what the new MacBook Pro comes with. I think it's a 45 watt charger. Maybe it's

01:47:03   60. I don't know. It's funny. I never, I, all I did was open the box to see the size of them and

01:47:07   then I laughed at them and then I use my new anchor, no, my AUG Key 100 watt charger, which is

01:47:13   like one of the best gadgets I bought of the year. But that's the other thing is that why,

01:47:16   why does an Apple make a bigger one that has a couple of USB spots in the back? Cause I,

01:47:21   I bought my wife, my wife got the new iPhone 12 Pro Max, the big one. Really? Yeah. She likes the,

01:47:29   the, she's hooked on these big phones now. She feels like, well, if it's going to, she

01:47:34   thinks they're all too big and she didn't want, I was like, well now they have the main, she's like,

01:47:38   I, I was already boring her. She was like, just get me the one I'm used to. I was like, all right.

01:47:42   But I got her the MagSafe charger too. And I was like, ha, this will surprise her. Cause this is

01:47:46   so much more convenient overnight than plugging in lightning. And then I went to her side of the bed

01:47:52   and she doesn't have any spots open anymore. So what I need is I need a, I need a, I need a plug

01:47:57   with two USB things. Cause she also wants to charge her iPad and Apple doesn't make it. Yeah,

01:48:02   the AUG Key ones are good. The new GAN chargers, they're like six, 60 Watts for like, I don't know,

01:48:08   30 bucks. Crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. They're so much better. It's, it's really, um, but I,

01:48:14   and I do worry and I, I feel like you might have a better sense of this is how many people

01:48:18   just feel like, Oh, you're supposed to use the one that comes in the box

01:48:23   and that, that, that there's something right or magical about it. Um, and for the most part,

01:48:30   I don't think you can ever like break a product by plugging it into the wrong outlet. It's just

01:48:36   that like, for example, I tried this with the new HomePod mini, which ships with the 20 watt

01:48:41   charger, right? A $99 speaker that ships with a charger that costs $20 charger, but I plugged it

01:48:48   into the 18 watt charger from last year and it doesn't work. It turns on, but it just glows.

01:48:54   It pulses orange on top because it actually needs 20 Watts. And that's where I'm, that's where I'm

01:49:00   thinking. I actually talked to Apple about it and they're like, yeah, that's, you know, we knew that

01:49:03   and that's why, you know, it recognizes that. Yeah. Um, but that just to me says that they weren't all

01:49:10   on the same page a year ago. Like somebody a year ago should have known that they were going to come

01:49:17   out with these products that needed 20 Watts and therefore not come out with 18 Watts because now,

01:49:23   even if you have an 18 watt, cause you bought an iPad last year and it came with it, it doesn't

01:49:28   charge the HomePod, you know, and now you've got it's or an iPhone or an iPhone pro and iPhone pro

01:49:34   last year's iPhone pros shipped with the 18 watt. Right. Right. And it does it won't charge the

01:49:40   MagSafe at full. It will work with MagSafe, but won't charge it at full speed, but it won't charge

01:49:44   a HomePod even though it looks exactly like the charger for the HomePod and the whole thing. Yeah.

01:49:49   You know, and I think the move to not put the charger in the box was a fine one. I was actually

01:49:54   fine with that, but I do think they should have done that. They should have last year or two years

01:49:59   ago, gone from the five watt to the 18 watt USB-C because the real issue is that, and this is what I

01:50:04   heard from a lot of my readers is I don't even have a USB-C charger. Right. Right. They had

01:50:10   bought phones years ago. They have a USB-A, they've got tons of the little bricks, right. But they now

01:50:17   got a phone with a core that has USB-C and they didn't have anything to plug that into.

01:50:22   Yeah. I, and I... So that's where that, you know, that's where Anker and Augie sold a bunch of these.

01:50:27   Yeah. And I have to say, I was just looking for a USB-C to, you know, USB-C on both sides,

01:50:32   cable of the right length. And I, you know, I don't, I guess I overspent on cables over the

01:50:39   last few years, but like I bought, I have an awful lot of cables with the old rectangular USB-A on

01:50:44   the one end that I don't really need anymore. Whether they go to USB-C or go to lightning,

01:50:49   it doesn't really matter. I want USB-C on, on the charging side end. Same, same. Yeah. I mean,

01:50:56   what's more frustrating is some of these accessory makers just not having gone from

01:51:01   micro USB to USB-C, but that's a whole other story. Yeah. So anyway, I do think you're right that for,

01:51:06   for a number of years, Apple should have been shipped before they stopped including chargers

01:51:11   in the box. They should have been using, including chargers with a USB slot in it. And it's crazy

01:51:18   because even if you bought the iPhone 11 last year, it came with the five watt charger, which

01:51:24   A is wimpy wattage wise, but still had the old, the old port, which means you couldn't plug in

01:51:34   a new cable to it anyway. All this is true. Yeah. And I think the, the big question becomes like,

01:51:41   is this transition to MagSafe just a step towards, you know, the full wireless feature,

01:51:46   which has been rumored. It's just not a good foot to get off on. Like just, just this MagSafe stuff

01:51:54   is I love the idea in theory and I love the MagSafe wallet. I have to say that's like best,

01:51:59   one of the best accessories Apple's ever made. But. See, I'm glad you mentioned that because

01:52:05   I feel like I've, the people I've spoken to about it, it's not for me. I don't really have a need

01:52:11   for it, but I think it's very clever and I can see why people would like it. But yet most of what

01:52:16   I've heard from people is, ah, it doesn't stick firmly enough. It would come off in my pocket.

01:52:21   And it's like, I don't think that's the use case is so I did. I, I maybe have perpetuated that

01:52:27   cause in my review, I showed it sliding off, but, um, that was on the 12th and now I've been using

01:52:36   the mini and it actually is, it doesn't fall off as much on the mini, maybe cause the covers the

01:52:41   entire surface area of the back. Um, it's like the perfect size for the mini. Like that was one of

01:52:48   exactly the same size as the mini. Oh, we were in that briefing together. I know. I don't think I

01:52:52   was. Oh, maybe I was. Yeah, maybe I was in there with you. Yeah. But I found it out on my own at

01:52:58   some point and I was like, Oh my God, this is amazing. It's like the exact radius of the,

01:53:02   the leather wallet is the exact corner radius of the mini and it's a perfect fit.

01:53:07   And it doesn't fall off as much on the mini as well. Say, see, no, there's a team that was

01:53:13   clearly working together. The wallet team, the wallet team clearly had access to the full iPhone

01:53:19   12 industrial design and came up with a clever wallet. Yeah. I feel like the, the whole in this

01:53:25   whole, the, the idea of, and I've been, this is what I've been saying is I don't think the iPhones

01:53:31   are ever going to have USB-C ports. I feel like they're going to have lightning ports until they

01:53:35   have no ports. That the next step is no ports, not USB-C. I believe that. And, and, you know,

01:53:43   it's there, I know there's people already rumouring that the, you know, next year or the

01:53:48   two years at some point, there's already phones in the pipeline that don't have ports. I believe it

01:53:54   from a technical standpoint, but I don't believe it from a pricing standpoint, right? If, if the

01:53:58   cheapest thing to charge it with is a $40 cable with a puck on the end, that doesn't come with

01:54:04   the power adapter. That's a hell of an expensive way. I mean, I guess they would just include that

01:54:10   with the phones, but that's 40 bucks, right? I mean, if it's, well, it'll come down in price and

01:54:16   I don't know. I, the whole thing would be so much more compelling if the, the mag safe charging puck

01:54:23   was 19 bucks. Cause then it would be, man, that's a no brainer. Buy two of them, put them everywhere

01:54:28   you use, you know, you need to charge your phone. It's just 40 bucks feels like too much for what's

01:54:34   effectively just a cable. It just happens to use a clever magnetic connection thing. And the

01:54:40   cleverness is awesome. And it's way easier to connect and disconnect and you can pull on it

01:54:45   and it just falls off and it won't break in the, in the port. And you don't have to worry about

01:54:50   getting dust in there and cleaning it out with a toothpick anymore or whatever else could happen.

01:54:54   That's all great, but you shouldn't have to pay 40 bucks just for a cable. I mean, that's a lot of

01:54:58   money. It's I it's really interesting that you think about it as just a cable because it really

01:55:03   is what it is. Right. You know, you kind of pull away the, like, it is a wireless charger,

01:55:08   but it's not the pad. And it's really just this, this inductive or yeah, it's just a cable, but,

01:55:15   but even to that point, I don't know. I mean, you've got the fact, the fact that it charges

01:55:22   slower. The fact that, I mean, I guess my biggest two issues are like it charges slower and the

01:55:27   cable is too short. Right. If they fix those two things, I'd be cool with it. Yeah. And that is the

01:55:32   thing. And I run into it. I mean, for me this year, at least I never run into the, Oh my God,

01:55:38   I need to quick get a charge because we're leaving and my phone's almost dead. Cause I'm not leaving

01:55:43   anywhere, but I have run into the, Oh, I'm reviewing the pro max and the mini and Oh my God,

01:55:49   the pro max is finally almost out of battery life, but I need, I need to keep using it.

01:55:54   Let me quick get a charge. It is surprising when you do plug it into a hot, you know,

01:55:59   like a 20 watt charger with a cable. It's like, wow, that really does get back to like 50%

01:56:03   very fast. 30 minutes. Yeah. It's really impressive. And that is the other, you know,

01:56:09   in addition to the cost of the MagSafe cables, there is that it's hard to go back on that.

01:56:13   Right. Like that at the very least, Oh my gosh, if you find out your phone is down to 10%

01:56:18   and you're leaving for work or something, or going out to dinner, when we can go back out to dinner

01:56:24   again, you'd quick need to charge it. MagSafe doesn't cut it. Yeah. And I did a lot of speed

01:56:32   testing on the chargers even before the MagSafe, but when MagSafe came, I did the charge tests and

01:56:38   it was slower than what Apple was saying it would charge at. I mean, they were saying 15 watts

01:56:43   delivery doesn't necessarily mean it's charging at 15 watts. And it took upwards, like close to

01:56:50   an hour to get to 50% on some of the iPhones. I mean, you know, it's like, it is, I agree with

01:56:58   you. It depends on the case. Like I don't really care if I'm charging overnight. Right. Right.

01:57:03   But what I do care is that like it's MagSafe is certainly better than the wireless charger I have

01:57:07   next to my bed, which forgot, like I didn't line up right last night and didn't charge.

01:57:12   So true. You know, that actually happened to me last night. I woke up this morning. I was like,

01:57:15   why is my phone dead? Oh, it's now I'll never go back to that. Yeah, I gotta, I gotta change those

01:57:21   all out. Anyway. Well, it's, we're two hours on the button. I don't think we've hit bedtime.

01:57:27   It's true. We haven't hit bedtime. It is Friday though. So maybe I will just, maybe I will take

01:57:34   a nap. Always a pleasure to have you back on this, on the show, Joanna. What an exciting time.

01:57:40   What an exciting time. And I'm sorry again, John, I did not mean to take the word craptacular

01:57:45   stat-tastic from you. And I did not mean to say you didn't look great on air. You, you looked

01:57:52   wonderful on air. And actually, in fact, a lot of people on Twitter were commenting on how good your

01:57:55   hair looks. So I thought the same thing. I really, I think quarantine has been kind to your hair.

01:58:00   Yeah, it did. Thank you very much. It's very kind. And I will say, I will add just the one to go back

01:58:06   to why I agree to go on CNBC. It does make me take a shower. Well, I feel like it's like, yeah, this

01:58:13   is a good start. I feel like here's a fresh start to a weekday. I mean, I have to say I stopped

01:58:19   wearing, I wear pants, but I stopped like when I first started doing these during quarantine, I was

01:58:23   like, okay, I'm gonna put on my whole outfit and put on jeans or put on nice black pants. And now

01:58:27   I'm just like sweatpants and a nice shirt on top. So clean shirt and a shower. I will, will try.

01:58:35   All right. Well, I really I always love having you on the show. I can't wait to see you again.

01:58:40   I don't know, hopefully soon. But hopefully on CNBC, and we won't be starting camera date again.

01:58:47   Well, you know what, that's my next step. Now that I've, this is my next, this will probably

01:58:51   be the last time. Well, who knows when I'm next beyond but my next project for me now that I've

01:58:56   caught up is trying to figure out a truly a real camera camera home webcam thing. So I don't know

01:59:04   what I'll do, but it probably won't be on a MacBook camera again. Well, use the I use camo.

01:59:09   Camo has been great. And or you can hook up a good camera. I love also there's a lot of commentary on

01:59:16   Twitter that like, you really care about cameras. And so you really worked on your lighting setup.

01:59:21   And I was thinking to myself, what? Like, yeah, John has like, thousands of dollars in lighting

01:59:26   gear in his house. Like, no, he doesn't like, I don't have anything. I have a window. Yeah,

01:59:31   I had a window to have like, I just like the I loved the assumptions that you like,

01:59:35   know how to work cameras better than me and that you know a lot more about camera webcams. And I

01:59:40   was like, Okay, all right. Yeah. But I'm happy. I thank you for having me on to defend and to

01:59:45   apologize. It's been craptacular. It has been. Oh, all right. That's from Dunkin Donuts. Yeah.

01:59:52   Yeah, it's probably what I need to stay up now that it's bedtime at 430.

01:59:59   All right. Well, thanks for having me. Let me get this.

02:00:02   All right. I'm I am stopping as well.