The Talk Show

299: ‘Sounds Like a Good Red Sauce Place’, With Special Guest Jason Snell


00:00:00   Is this the show? This is the show?

00:00:02   It could be. Whatever. I'm rolling.

00:00:04   I think this is the show.

00:00:06   Why not?

00:00:08   It's the silly Apple

00:00:10   season. And again, it feels

00:00:12   like we've had a

00:00:14   year's worth of news, right?

00:00:16   I know there's more. There's more coming.

00:00:18   Including clearly the two most interesting

00:00:20   iPhones, which again,

00:00:22   I wrote a lot about

00:00:24   the... I know it's bad.

00:00:26   My iPhone reviews tend to be long.

00:00:28   And I knew I had a lot to say

00:00:30   about the event

00:00:32   before I even wrote about

00:00:34   the reviews and my thoughts on the

00:00:36   event and just the stuff that they

00:00:38   announced. So it's like you get like these

00:00:40   review units. You have an embargo and you're

00:00:42   not allowed to write about them until the embargo passes.

00:00:44   And my thoughts on the event were taking

00:00:46   me so long that I had already gotten the

00:00:48   review units. And so

00:00:50   I had to be careful that

00:00:52   my... you know, because I

00:00:54   you know, I don't think Apple

00:00:56   is going to take me to court, you know.

00:00:58   If like information I could only know

00:01:00   could only glean from having

00:01:02   started using them worked

00:01:04   its way into

00:01:06   you know, the pre- embargo

00:01:08   piece. But you know, you want to play by the rules.

00:01:10   You know, it's being honest.

00:01:12   Yeah, you could be... you could

00:01:14   maybe be informed by some of the things. Like

00:01:16   you could have it confirm a suspicion, but you can't go

00:01:18   beyond that. Like I didn't get the iPhones

00:01:20   in advance, but I got the iPad Air in advance. And it was like

00:01:22   suffice it to say I had some opinions

00:01:24   about the A14 that were

00:01:26   informed by the fact that I had one,

00:01:28   right? Even though I didn't have a phone, I had

00:01:30   a device with it. But yeah,

00:01:32   you want to play fair with all of that.

00:01:34   I really wanted to get some stuff off my chest

00:01:36   that you... I felt like I could write

00:01:38   I could write about the pricing. I had

00:01:40   a lot of thoughts to say about the pricing.

00:01:42   And the

00:01:44   charger being in the box

00:01:46   which is sort of related to pricing

00:01:48   because let's face it, you know, everybody's making

00:01:50   the same point that Apple says, "Hey, this is great

00:01:52   for the environment." And a lot of people are saying,

00:01:54   "No, this is about cheaping out

00:01:56   on the charger." And

00:01:58   the truth is it's both, right?

00:02:00   It is both clearly cheaper.

00:02:02   However much it costs Apple

00:02:04   to make all the

00:02:06   chargers that they put in a box and to

00:02:08   make bigger boxes and

00:02:10   to ship those boxes, it

00:02:12   is clearly cheaper to do it

00:02:14   without. But it's also better for the environment

00:02:16   if people only buy chargers they actually need.

00:02:18   So it's both true.

00:02:20   But I wanted to get that out of the way

00:02:22   before I actually

00:02:24   wrote the official iPhone

00:02:26   12 review.

00:02:28   Because I knew I had so much to say.

00:02:30   And I know it's bad when I

00:02:32   feel like, "Hey, I have a lot of thoughts about this."

00:02:34   Because sometimes I think, "Hey, this one's going to be

00:02:36   short." And it's still long.

00:02:38   When I feel like it's going to

00:02:40   be long when I start, I know it's going to be

00:02:42   trouble. And I kept thinking

00:02:44   as I was trying to bring it home

00:02:46   and wrap it up, "These

00:02:48   are not the two most interesting iPhones of the year.

00:02:50   These are the two that are... Not that they're

00:02:52   not interesting, but they're not the most interesting."

00:02:54   Yeah. No,

00:02:56   I think you're right. The outliers... I got

00:02:58   to the end of my review and it was like,

00:03:00   "To be continued," almost. Because

00:03:02   these are

00:03:04   the... I would say the two models

00:03:06   that we have are the ones that will

00:03:08   sell the best. But

00:03:10   they're also... Not only

00:03:12   are they kind of boring because

00:03:14   they're so similar to what's

00:03:16   come before and they're not the weird outliers

00:03:18   that have fascinating

00:03:20   quirks about them. But

00:03:22   also they're

00:03:24   so much like one another in a way that

00:03:26   last year the 11 and 11 Pro

00:03:28   weren't. So they're even more

00:03:30   similar. So it's fascinating because

00:03:32   I would say the 12 and the 12 Pro are the two

00:03:34   most important iPhones.

00:03:36   But are they the most interesting?

00:03:38   No, they're not. They're not.

00:03:40   And it's just a strange

00:03:42   thing to have to deal with when you're writing

00:03:44   about them. And we'll get to them later

00:03:46   in the show in the official iPhone 12

00:03:48   segment.

00:03:50   But I will say this, just

00:03:52   upfront. Do you think

00:03:54   strategically

00:03:56   that Apple...

00:03:58   How much of this timing of the release

00:04:00   of these phones... I mean, clearly, the

00:04:02   whole thing is a little bit late

00:04:04   compared to usual

00:04:06   because of all the delays

00:04:08   from COVID-19.

00:04:10   I mean, Apple has even said so.

00:04:12   They said so in July

00:04:14   or three months ago in the last earnings.

00:04:16   They were like, "Look, our usual schedule

00:04:18   disrupted. New phones

00:04:20   this year will be a little late." And it's extraordinary

00:04:22   for them to even acknowledge

00:04:24   what everybody expects to be true, that there are

00:04:26   new phones. Right? Like, that's... Part

00:04:28   of it, everybody knows Apple's secretive. But they're so

00:04:30   secretive and they're just... It's not even

00:04:32   secretive. They're just so tight-lipped that officially,

00:04:34   they don't even

00:04:36   acknowledge that they plan

00:04:38   to release new phones.

00:04:40   The official

00:04:42   Apple party line each year

00:04:44   until invitations

00:04:46   go out for the

00:04:48   September event, until the

00:04:50   moment that they send press invitations,

00:04:52   their official line is

00:04:54   "Last year's iPhones are our

00:04:56   iPhones and they're our best iPhones ever."

00:04:58   Yeah, you don't know. Maybe we

00:05:00   have no more phones. Maybe this is it.

00:05:02   Right.

00:05:04   How much of it do you think is...

00:05:06   I think

00:05:08   that in

00:05:10   2017, the extreme

00:05:12   delay of the iPhone X was just that

00:05:14   they were so pressing

00:05:16   themselves on the limits

00:05:18   of what they could make. Like

00:05:20   their first OLED screen and

00:05:22   first edge-to-edge thing.

00:05:24   And face ID and all this

00:05:26   new stuff. And it didn't ship until

00:05:28   November, really

00:05:30   late compared to the iPhone's 8, which

00:05:32   were really just a very

00:05:34   linear

00:05:36   evolution

00:05:38   of the iPhone 7, which is the iPhone 6.

00:05:40   That's the iPhone 6.

00:05:42   The next year,

00:05:44   it was the opposite, where the XS and

00:05:46   XS Pro

00:05:48   shipped more or less

00:05:50   on what you would think is the usual schedule

00:05:52   a couple of weeks after the event.

00:05:54   And it was the iPhone XR

00:05:56   that was late.

00:05:58   And then last year,

00:06:00   they got

00:06:02   their crap together.

00:06:04   And everything, the iPhone 11

00:06:06   and the 11 Pro all shipped

00:06:08   on September 20th.

00:06:10   I don't, you know,

00:06:12   so it's been different every year.

00:06:14   This year, obviously, there's COVID.

00:06:16   So,

00:06:18   barring the initial delay of

00:06:20   COVID, do you think that they wanted to ship

00:06:22   all four at once or they always planned?

00:06:24   Even if this year had 2020,

00:06:26   if everybody thought, "Boy, 2020 is the most normal

00:06:28   boring year of

00:06:30   mankind."

00:06:32   Do you think that they would have still shipped

00:06:34   these on a delayed schedule?

00:06:36   I don't.

00:06:38   And that isn't me thinking

00:06:40   that they don't want to. I think if they could

00:06:42   wave a magic wand and announce and

00:06:44   ship simultaneously all iPhone

00:06:46   models, I think they would.

00:06:48   I think there are just some,

00:06:50   it's not just COVID, I think there are production

00:06:52   issues and logistics

00:06:54   issues in having

00:06:56   all of those units. And I think

00:06:58   maybe in the case of this year,

00:07:00   they're also prioritizing the ones that are

00:07:02   going to sell the most and loading as

00:07:04   many of those, front-loading those, making

00:07:06   more of them, shipping more of them

00:07:08   so that they can get those out there because

00:07:10   they're the most, they're the biggest sellers,

00:07:12   presumably.

00:07:14   You never know, but presumably.

00:07:16   And then you follow with the others.

00:07:18   But I think if they could

00:07:20   just all practicalities

00:07:22   and logistics aside,

00:07:24   plan the perfect rollout,

00:07:26   I think they would probably want to roll them

00:07:28   out all simultaneously just because

00:07:30   from a customer perspective, and I do think they care

00:07:32   about this, it would be a lot easier to say

00:07:34   go online, pick your phone and it'll show up

00:07:36   on this date. It doesn't matter which

00:07:38   one you pick because you get in a

00:07:40   situation where people are like, well, do I want a 12?

00:07:42   Do I want the mini? I want to try the mini, but I

00:07:44   can't because it's not in the stores yet.

00:07:46   And so I don't know. And it's

00:07:48   a lot clearer, they just want you to buy a phone,

00:07:50   right? So if you know about all four of

00:07:52   them and you could go to the store and handle them

00:07:54   if you wanted to, if your store is open, then

00:07:56   that's going to sell a phone

00:07:58   to you and instead you get

00:08:00   this weird kind of in between. So I

00:08:02   don't think logistically they can

00:08:04   do that is the thing. And that's

00:08:06   besides COVID. I think it's just

00:08:08   I think it's probably their ideal.

00:08:10   Their dream is to do that.

00:08:12   But they sell so many phones.

00:08:14   The volumes are so

00:08:16   amazing that I think that even

00:08:18   Apple can't pack

00:08:20   the supply chain that

00:08:22   much at once.

00:08:24   I think 2017 might

00:08:26   have been the exception. And I think the

00:08:28   iPhone 10 did ship

00:08:30   so much later than the iPhone

00:08:32   8 because it was just harder to

00:08:34   produce and it was just really

00:08:36   I think it wasn't ready. But I think even

00:08:38   if it had been ready, I think they might

00:08:40   have staggered that one by two weeks

00:08:42   so that the iPhone 8

00:08:44   didn't get lost in the shuffle.

00:08:46   I think they still would have shipped the iPhone 8 first

00:08:48   but maybe shipped the iPhone 10

00:08:50   two weeks later so that the iPhone

00:08:52   8 got its moment in the sun

00:08:54   because price wise they just knew

00:08:56   that that was more in the budget

00:08:58   for most people.

00:09:00   It could be.

00:09:02   It could be. I think what's

00:09:04   funny is there's a question of

00:09:06   how you want to market this

00:09:08   like literally market it. Take it

00:09:10   to market. And there's how do you want to

00:09:12   promote it. And

00:09:14   they've shown.

00:09:16   Literally they announced in September

00:09:18   a product that shipped

00:09:20   simultaneous with a product that they

00:09:22   announced in October.

00:09:24   Like which gave the

00:09:26   iPad Air

00:09:28   its due and its moment in the sun

00:09:30   and they staggered

00:09:32   the review embargo. So the phone embargo

00:09:34   was on a Tuesday and the iPad

00:09:36   embargo was on a Wednesday. Yes the September

00:09:38   products embargo was later than the October products

00:09:40   I don't know. But so there's an argument

00:09:42   to be made that staggering

00:09:44   everything like that and doing multiple

00:09:46   events is actually better

00:09:48   because everything gets

00:09:50   its moment in the sun but you do risk

00:09:52   sort of fatigue after a certain point

00:09:54   so it's a trick of like what's

00:09:56   the sweet spot of

00:09:58   simplicity in terms of ordering

00:10:00   and availability and clarity

00:10:02   in terms of what

00:10:04   customers expect and also

00:10:06   like how you what's

00:10:08   the sweet spot with the press where it's

00:10:10   just enough to get the maximum

00:10:12   because they want to maximize

00:10:14   promotion through product reviews

00:10:16   and how do you do that? How many events

00:10:18   do you hold? Apparently three. How many

00:10:20   products do you roll out one time

00:10:22   and you know and they're probably experimenting

00:10:24   a little bit too. I mean some of it is

00:10:26   probably artificial where they're

00:10:28   like because you know they're

00:10:30   going to get two waves of iPhone

00:10:32   reviews just like they did with the 10R

00:10:34   just like they did with the 10

00:10:36   so that's good that's more

00:10:38   press for them. Right and

00:10:40   yeah

00:10:42   so part of it makes me think that it's

00:10:44   you know three weeks isn't

00:10:46   that long in the grand scheme of things

00:10:48   you know it

00:10:50   is for the people I pity

00:10:52   and you know they're listening to us

00:10:54   right now they're the enthusiasts who

00:10:56   really do want to

00:10:58   if they're going to get a new phone

00:11:00   they really are most likely to want to

00:11:02   order right away they're the people who know

00:11:04   they know that like that

00:11:06   when Apple's online orders start

00:11:08   it's like what is it now

00:11:10   midnight eastern time

00:11:12   no I think it's like 9 am eastern

00:11:14   or 6 am eastern or something like that

00:11:16   it's like a good time for the east coast

00:11:18   and a bad time for the west coast and it used to be the other

00:11:20   way around right where it was midnight

00:11:22   that's what I'm thinking

00:11:24   midnight used to be midnight west coast

00:11:26   and 3 am east coast which

00:11:28   was literally the middle of the night for most

00:11:30   people

00:11:32   the people who know that

00:11:34   are the people who most want to

00:11:36   hear like although

00:11:38   those early order times

00:11:40   always happen before the reviews

00:11:42   come out but people who do that they want to hear

00:11:44   hey is the mini too

00:11:46   small you know is

00:11:48   is this new camera

00:11:50   sensor in the

00:11:52   the max worth

00:11:54   having a phone that maybe I think is too big

00:11:56   but I take so many photos and it is my

00:11:58   family's point and shoot camera

00:12:00   that maybe it's worth it they want to know that

00:12:02   and like you don't get to wait and

00:12:04   then maybe when these reviews

00:12:06   finally drop eventually for those

00:12:08   phones they'll say ah now I

00:12:10   I really do just want the regular iPhone 12

00:12:12   I could have ordered it 3 weeks ago right

00:12:14   so I you know

00:12:16   it's frustrating for the enthusiasts

00:12:18   by next you know

00:12:20   by the middle of December it's all in the past

00:12:22   and it's just the new iPhone 12

00:12:24   most people will just drift into an Apple

00:12:26   store again if their store is open

00:12:28   and they can drift in in December

00:12:30   and then throughout next year

00:12:32   and they'll have all the phones and they'll just buy a phone

00:12:34   it's not that big a deal it's it's

00:12:36   it is more for the people who are super intense

00:12:38   about it like we are for now

00:12:40   but it's an interesting question of like

00:12:42   if they could do anything would they still

00:12:44   choose to do it the way they're doing it now and

00:12:46   you know I think I think some stuff

00:12:48   they would probably choose to do differently but

00:12:50   you work with what you've got like they

00:12:52   and you do prioritize the most important

00:12:54   products yeah

00:12:56   well let's just get let's just say

00:12:58   the most important thing on the agenda is to

00:13:00   congratulate the Los Angeles Dodgers

00:13:02   hmm

00:13:04   so actually you know

00:13:06   okay so you and I have a friend who's a big Dodger fan

00:13:08   Greg Noss

00:13:10   poor guy I feel like

00:13:12   felt like he was gonna die

00:13:14   and the Dodgers have let's just sorry for the

00:13:16   sports talk everybody but the Dodgers let's just say

00:13:18   probably have the best team in baseball for like

00:13:20   five years now and they always lose in the playoffs

00:13:22   and as a Giants fan I

00:13:24   take great delight in the failure of

00:13:26   the Los Angeles Dodgers because they're our

00:13:28   rival right and yet I also

00:13:30   feel really bad for their fans and for people

00:13:32   like our friend Greg

00:13:34   and

00:13:36   you know the moment for me because there are

00:13:38   30 baseball teams right so the moment

00:13:40   when it was 30 years since the Dodgers had

00:13:42   won a World Series I kind of said to myself

00:13:44   okay like

00:13:46   because that's when you're not getting your do

00:13:48   right

00:13:50   yeah like literally it's been 30 years

00:13:52   if you if you went one at a time

00:13:54   it would be your turn now

00:13:56   after 30 to get one again

00:13:58   and you've had you've

00:14:00   won the division eight years in a row and all that stuff

00:14:02   so on that level

00:14:04   I'm okay with it I feel like they were

00:14:06   a great team Mookie Betts is an amazing

00:14:08   player they're if they weren't the

00:14:10   Dodgers I would be they were so

00:14:12   fun to watch the Rays were fun to watch too

00:14:14   I thought a great World

00:14:16   Series after such a weird season I

00:14:18   thought it was an entertaining postseason

00:14:20   loved it the Dodgers are never gonna be my

00:14:22   favorite and that's an understatement but

00:14:24   I thought it was fine and then also in the back of

00:14:26   my mind is just a jerk who loves the Giants

00:14:28   I am amused by the fact

00:14:30   that the year the Dodgers finally won it all

00:14:32   their fans didn't get to go

00:14:34   a single game at Dodger Stadium and there's no

00:14:36   parade and there's no parade

00:14:38   yeah well 2020 right as a Giants

00:14:40   fan you're like see there it is 2020

00:14:42   something else bad happened but I'm

00:14:44   happy for my friends who are the long suffering

00:14:46   like look as a fan of the San Francisco Giants

00:14:48   the Giants until 2010

00:14:50   had never won a World

00:14:52   Series in San Francisco and it had been more than

00:14:54   50 years so I

00:14:56   I feel the pain of somebody who has

00:14:58   for most or all of their life never seen

00:15:00   their team win anything and

00:15:02   so I'm happy for them even

00:15:04   though I you know I was pulling for the

00:15:06   Rays because you know not only

00:15:08   do they have a pitcher named Snell but they're

00:15:10   not the Dodgers but it's it's okay

00:15:12   I'm happy for Greg and all the other Dodger

00:15:14   fans out there we were texting about

00:15:16   Blake Snell who is the

00:15:18   yeah the biggest Snell

00:15:20   award-winning starting pitcher for the Tampa

00:15:22   Bay Rays and the

00:15:24   closest equivalent I have was a

00:15:26   star third baseman for the Toronto

00:15:28   Blue Jays while we were growing up and

00:15:30   Kelly Gruber Kelly Gruber who was also

00:15:32   also one of only two

00:15:34   male Kellys

00:15:36   who I could think of because wasn't the guy in the

00:15:38   Bad News Bears named Kelly

00:15:40   yeah that's right yeah and I just

00:15:42   grew so I grew up thinking my

00:15:44   first thought was Kelly

00:15:46   that's a girl's name and then and

00:15:48   I associated with Kelly that's a

00:15:50   name somebody has to be a great baseball

00:15:52   player Kelly Gruber

00:15:54   sure but it always hurt me as

00:15:56   a Yankees fan that like that the best

00:15:58   Gruber to play baseball was on the division

00:16:00   rival Toronto Blue Jays right

00:16:02   so who do you think is so

00:16:04   so that I

00:16:06   I kid you because I know

00:16:08   how Giants and Dodgers fans feel

00:16:10   about each other that's the beauty it's like

00:16:12   you're never going to chew the Red Sox winning although

00:16:14   when they did win the first time you're like okay well

00:16:16   you know I'm happy for the fans maybe a little bit

00:16:18   but but they're the enemy and and and so you

00:16:20   cheer against them it's like reverse fandom

00:16:22   there well who do you think

00:16:24   who do you think this is my question who do you

00:16:26   think who do you think is a bigger rivalry

00:16:28   Dodgers Giants

00:16:30   or Yankees Red Sox

00:16:32   I think it's probably Yankees Red Sox

00:16:36   honestly and some of that is

00:16:38   is the

00:16:40   I think both fan bases

00:16:42   well there is a dynamic that's similar which

00:16:44   is that I think I think the Red Sox fans hate

00:16:46   the Yankees more than the Yankees hate the

00:16:48   Red Sox that's very true and I think the Giants

00:16:50   hate the Dodgers more than the Dodgers hate the Giants

00:16:52   honestly it's one of those things like

00:16:54   people in San Francisco you know

00:16:56   we chant beat LA and stuff like that right

00:16:58   I don't think LA cares right like whatever

00:17:00   there's no beat SF chant right it is

00:17:02   they're the bigger city they're the

00:17:04   bigger region that you know

00:17:06   and I think that there's that aspect of

00:17:08   it but they're both great rival I love rivalries

00:17:10   I try to explain them to other

00:17:12   people this is actually what I love about rivalries

00:17:14   is you try to explain it logically to somebody about

00:17:16   why do you hate them and there's no answer

00:17:18   like I can't explain why why

00:17:20   I'm a UC Berkeley a Cal

00:17:22   fan as well and it's like I hate Stanford

00:17:24   Stanford is one of the finest

00:17:26   educational institutions in the world

00:17:28   I hate them why do I hate them

00:17:30   I don't hate them for any reason other than

00:17:32   they're Stanford we're Cal

00:17:34   we hate them there's no logic

00:17:36   don't look for logic in it

00:17:38   it really

00:17:40   it really does seem preposterous

00:17:42   when you think of it as an institution

00:17:44   as a great institution

00:17:46   of higher learning you know curing

00:17:48   diseases and doing

00:17:50   great work in computer science

00:17:52   etc and so forth

00:17:54   I think I

00:17:56   was thinking about this when I knew you were going to be on the show

00:17:58   and my answer is I think that they're both

00:18:00   maximum rivalries there's like a

00:18:02   maximum amount of sports rivalry you

00:18:04   can have and I think that the perceived

00:18:06   differences are the differences

00:18:08   between the East Coast and

00:18:10   California the West Coast

00:18:12   and that Californians are just generally

00:18:14   nicer people and

00:18:16   so like the maximum

00:18:18   like when San Francisco fans

00:18:20   think they're being really mean to

00:18:22   the Dodgers

00:18:24   it's just as mean as we it's our meanness

00:18:26   style only goes up that far so we think

00:18:28   we've maxed it out for us. Boston

00:18:30   fans and the East Coast fans are

00:18:32   like what are you kidding me that's like a

00:18:34   that's like my kids softball game you know

00:18:36   that's fair

00:18:38   that's fair I love a good rivalry though I think I think it's

00:18:40   great and it seems mean and it's totally

00:18:42   illogical but I do think

00:18:44   having grown up in the midst of a couple of them

00:18:46   I think it adds a whole level of

00:18:48   kind of spice and delight and

00:18:50   when every and I know on the outside it

00:18:52   seems weird like I read about Cubs fans

00:18:54   and Cardinals fans and things like that and I'm like

00:18:56   I don't get it but I get it

00:18:58   like I don't see it because I find

00:19:00   those teams they're like okay they're teams but

00:19:02   if you're in it it's just a magical thing

00:19:04   you've got if sports

00:19:06   really is about tribalism

00:19:08   you gotta have a rival otherwise

00:19:10   you know that just

00:19:12   you gotta be fully tribal you have to have a rival

00:19:14   yeah that one the subtext for me

00:19:16   as a Yankee fan watching

00:19:18   the World Series

00:19:20   was

00:19:22   the delight in

00:19:24   the suffering of Red Sox

00:19:26   fans watching Mookie Betts

00:19:28   establish himself as

00:19:30   as clearly

00:19:32   the only to me I love Aaron

00:19:34   Judge I think Aaron Judge is great I wouldn't trade

00:19:36   him for anybody including

00:19:38   the two people I'm about to mention but to me

00:19:40   even a casual fan has to admit that

00:19:42   the argument for the best baseball player

00:19:44   in the game right now

00:19:46   is either Mike Trout or Mookie Betts and

00:19:48   there's really to me I

00:19:50   don't see how you could argue for anybody else

00:19:52   Did you read Joe Pysnanski at

00:19:54   the Athletic actually wrote an essay that

00:19:56   he said maybe Mookie Betts is a better player

00:19:58   the best player in baseball and not Mike Trout

00:20:00   and his point was let's

00:20:02   argue about it because it feels like we could have

00:20:04   an argument now and the tragedy of course

00:20:06   for the Red Sox is

00:20:08   that they knew how good he was

00:20:10   but apparently their team who is

00:20:12   owned by a billionaire who also owns like

00:20:14   a premier league soccer team and like

00:20:16   they just decided they didn't want to pay

00:20:18   him even though he's the best

00:20:20   player and young and could have been their

00:20:22   star for the next 10 years and so they just got

00:20:24   rid of him. It's amazing. It wasn't like they

00:20:26   underestimated him it wasn't like

00:20:28   oh he flourished after they traded him

00:20:30   it wasn't like

00:20:32   they just didn't have the money like

00:20:34   they just can't come up with the dough

00:20:36   they just didn't want to spend the

00:20:38   money. It's like Babe Ruth all over

00:20:40   again. They sold off Babe Ruth to

00:20:42   the Yankees because he was going to

00:20:44   cost too much money and they didn't want to pay him

00:20:46   and he was just

00:20:48   spectacularly good

00:20:50   in World Series

00:20:52   He was. He single-handedly

00:20:54   I think won a couple of games in the post

00:20:56   season with his defensive plays and

00:20:58   with his hitting and it was

00:21:00   delightful to watch even though he's a Dodger

00:21:02   because he brings such joy to the

00:21:04   field and yeah it's

00:21:06   got to be extra glee for a Yankee

00:21:08   fan to see that all happen because literally

00:21:10   I don't think the Dodgers

00:21:12   would have won the World Series without him

00:21:14   so thanks

00:21:16   Red Sox. Well and they

00:21:18   definitely would not have beaten the Braves. No way

00:21:20   there's no way they would have beaten the Braves

00:21:22   to get there so

00:21:24   thank you to the Red Sox for the

00:21:26   Dodgers World Series Championship

00:21:28   and for getting Mookie Betts into the

00:21:30   National League away from the

00:21:32   Yankees. Thank you so much

00:21:34   but I will say this before we move on

00:21:36   let me just say this

00:21:38   in the run-up to this election

00:21:40   which is coming out a few days after this

00:21:42   episode is going to drop

00:21:44   it has also occurred to me a point you just

00:21:46   made a few minutes ago that

00:21:48   we as human beings like

00:21:50   to have rivalries

00:21:52   and one of the reasons when

00:21:54   people who don't like sports say well I

00:21:56   like sports it's just a game and it's not

00:21:58   it is fun

00:22:00   to invest yourself and

00:22:02   to care about something where the

00:22:04   stakes ultimately are nothing

00:22:06   right there really

00:22:08   is you know

00:22:10   the fine people

00:22:12   the you know 12, 13, 14

00:22:14   how many fans there are down in Tampa who like

00:22:16   to watch the baseball team. They're

00:22:18   good people and they like baseball

00:22:20   you know dozens and dozens

00:22:22   of fans down there who like this team

00:22:24   I hear you and Paul Kefasas right down

00:22:26   there on a little reconnoiter and discovered

00:22:28   that there are at least 10 Rays fans

00:22:30   we got seats

00:22:32   it was hard to believe that we could get

00:22:34   seats to watch that fine

00:22:36   baseball team but they're all right their

00:22:38   hearts are broken you've had a great

00:22:40   season again it's a fine young team but

00:22:42   you know there's no real harm

00:22:44   came of it your team that a team you like

00:22:46   lost the game

00:22:48   and you know these rivalries you could say you know

00:22:50   you don't like the Dodgers and I could certainly

00:22:52   say I don't like the Red Sox

00:22:54   I don't like their ballpark I don't like the way

00:22:56   it smells I don't like the way it looks

00:22:58   I don't like the way that

00:23:00   the Dodger dogs aren't very good

00:23:02   you know right I don't like any of it

00:23:04   I

00:23:06   don't like their accent I don't like the way that

00:23:08   they talk up there I just don't like it

00:23:10   but it's in most cases I mean there are occasionally

00:23:12   examples of fan violence that happen and

00:23:14   those are stupid and they shouldn't happen but in general

00:23:16   it is the stakes

00:23:18   are almost nothing it's not life and death

00:23:20   it's not people's livelihood or whether

00:23:22   somebody can get married or

00:23:24   get health insurance or anything like

00:23:26   that right that that which is why

00:23:28   although there definitely is tribalism

00:23:30   in American politics which is I think where you're going

00:23:32   with this it feels like you know

00:23:34   but it's not we don't do it for

00:23:36   fun like it's there are actual stakes

00:23:38   and like the cliche says

00:23:40   elections matter right

00:23:42   well and that's my my

00:23:44   my sentiment to anybody who's listening to this episode

00:23:46   before Tuesday and you

00:23:48   if you're thinking about voting

00:23:50   vote it matters it really

00:23:52   does we in real life

00:23:54   which is what elections are about we

00:23:56   are all in this together in baseball

00:23:58   we're not all in this together you

00:24:00   know right the Dodgers somebody had to win

00:24:02   the World Series and 29 other

00:24:04   teams didn't in real

00:24:06   life we're all in it together and

00:24:08   and that's the thought I would like to encourage

00:24:10   everybody to have going forward

00:24:12   voting if you haven't

00:24:14   I bet most people listening actually have

00:24:16   voted which is a nice change

00:24:18   in this country but

00:24:20   anybody who's still listening and on the fences

00:24:22   whether their vote matters really does matter

00:24:24   it's the strangest thing

00:24:26   in the world that you

00:24:28   could be one of you know a couple

00:24:30   hundred million people here in the country and

00:24:32   your vote matters but it really does

00:24:34   does it's hard to hard to explain

00:24:36   but don't think it doesn't

00:24:38   that's that's my my election

00:24:40   message yep amen

00:24:42   all right let me take a break thank our first

00:24:44   sponsor a new sponsor

00:24:46   oh this is great I love new sponsors

00:24:48   stitch fix

00:24:50   I was worried about getting that out that seems

00:24:52   like something I'd have trouble pronouncing

00:24:54   wouldn't it be great if every

00:24:56   clothing store you shopped at only had

00:24:58   your size the styles you like

00:25:00   at the prices you want well

00:25:02   there is a company focused on making that

00:25:04   happen in the world of clothes shopping

00:25:06   there are no consistent

00:25:08   sizes why should we have

00:25:10   to try to guess if

00:25:12   a medium is really a medium or

00:25:14   maybe have to return it

00:25:16   and it's online and you got to pack

00:25:18   it back up and give it to the guy just to

00:25:20   get a large because the medium was too small

00:25:22   even though you usually take a medium

00:25:24   stitch fix is a personal styling

00:25:26   company that makes getting the clothes

00:25:28   you want effortless

00:25:30   it's a completely different way to shop

00:25:32   that is all about you

00:25:34   every time to get started you go to stitch

00:25:36   fix dot com slash

00:25:38   talk show to set

00:25:40   up your profile they will deliver

00:25:42   great looks personalized just for

00:25:44   you in colored styles and the

00:25:46   budget you select

00:25:48   you pay a twenty dollar styling

00:25:50   fee for each fix which is

00:25:52   credited toward anything you

00:25:54   keep schedule at any time

00:25:56   no subscription required

00:25:58   plus shipping

00:26:00   returns and exchanges are

00:26:02   easy and free it's all handled

00:26:04   automatically they ship you

00:26:06   the stuff you keep the stuff you like

00:26:08   you pay for that and you send the other stuff

00:26:10   back stitch fix

00:26:12   does all the hard work for you making great

00:26:14   style effortless for everybody

00:26:16   including men women and kids

00:26:18   and they've got

00:26:20   consistent sizes

00:26:22   right through the whole line so if you know

00:26:24   you're a large you just

00:26:26   keep getting larges everything's going to fit

00:26:28   perfect

00:26:30   get started today at stitch

00:26:32   fix dot com slash

00:26:34   talk show and by starting

00:26:36   there at that URL you will get twenty five

00:26:38   percent off when you keep

00:26:40   everything in your fix

00:26:42   that stitch fix dot

00:26:44   com slash talk show for twenty five

00:26:46   percent off when you keep

00:26:48   everything in your fix my thanks to

00:26:50   stitch fix for sponsoring the show

00:26:52   where

00:26:54   to start we got a lot to cover

00:26:56   I say we start with the Mac though

00:26:58   I can't wait I feel

00:27:00   like if I save the Mac till

00:27:02   the end is we're going to cut it short and

00:27:04   me and you how can we not

00:27:06   talk about the Mac sounds good

00:27:08   to me I mean I think this is one of the most

00:27:10   exciting moments

00:27:12   that the Mac has ever had

00:27:14   short term they just

00:27:16   reported their

00:27:18   Q4 financial year

00:27:20   2020 but it's the July to September

00:27:22   quarter yesterday

00:27:24   and under

00:27:26   reported in all of this

00:27:28   to me not by

00:27:30   you you mentioned it

00:27:32   but by a lot of people is that

00:27:34   the Mac had its best

00:27:36   Q4 ever was it

00:27:38   the best quarter period ever

00:27:40   it was the best single

00:27:42   Mac quarter ever

00:27:44   and

00:27:46   not by a little by

00:27:48   more than a billion dollars

00:27:50   that is and if

00:27:52   you look back that

00:27:54   they're good quarters for the

00:27:56   Mac in recent years

00:27:58   have been like seven point one

00:28:00   seven point two billion dollars

00:28:02   yeah and this was over

00:28:04   nine nine nine billion

00:28:06   and it broke the record for the best Mac

00:28:08   quarter by one point six

00:28:10   so not even more than one right more than one

00:28:12   and a half billion it was

00:28:14   by far the best quarter

00:28:16   in thirty

00:28:18   odd years of the Mac and this

00:28:20   is the quarter

00:28:22   the one quarter

00:28:24   July

00:28:26   through September of 2020

00:28:28   that is after

00:28:30   the official announcement that they are

00:28:32   moving the entire product line from Intel

00:28:34   processors to their own quote unquote

00:28:36   Apple silicon chips

00:28:38   before the quarter

00:28:40   when we all believe and have every

00:28:42   reason to continue believing they will

00:28:44   initially start shipping

00:28:46   those Macs the one quarter

00:28:48   in history

00:28:50   between Intel

00:28:52   and Apple silicon

00:28:54   is the one where they sold

00:28:56   the most Macs ever which

00:28:58   for again for the people

00:29:00   listening to the talk show

00:29:02   is got to be a bit of a head scratcher

00:29:04   right because I bet a lot of people who are

00:29:06   listening to the show who have been thinking

00:29:08   I kind of need a new

00:29:10   whatever desktop and iMac

00:29:12   a MacBook of some sort

00:29:14   are probably thinking

00:29:16   I'll make do with what I have

00:29:18   and see what they come out with

00:29:20   and

00:29:22   in the meantime out in the real world

00:29:24   people bought way more

00:29:26   Macs than ever before to me

00:29:28   it's a testimony that as much

00:29:30   as we think oh well Apple is all about the

00:29:32   iPhone now the Mac

00:29:34   is stronger than ever and more

00:29:36   mainstream than ever

00:29:38   like that

00:29:40   I think that's true that's what I take away from it

00:29:42   is that there are people who

00:29:44   like you could say to them

00:29:46   it's a clearly a lot of people

00:29:48   more people than ever bought a Mac in the last three

00:29:50   months and you could say to them

00:29:52   well wait a minute didn't you hear

00:29:54   that they're moving from Intel's

00:29:56   architecture of x86

00:29:58   to custom Apple Silicon you might as

00:30:00   well just say to them didn't you hear that they're

00:30:02   going to flim flam the flabber chatter

00:30:04   and it's going to go to 26 gigawatts

00:30:06   or you know

00:30:08   you just make up terms and they'll be like

00:30:10   yeah but I need a laptop now

00:30:12   right?

00:30:14   that's because I think that's what is driving

00:30:16   some of this although to be fair

00:30:18   a lot of the analysts say to

00:30:20   say to Tim Cook in these calls

00:30:22   every quarter

00:30:24   are you just selling Macs that you would have sold

00:30:26   over the next year because of COVID and

00:30:28   then your Mac sales are going to crash and

00:30:30   what they said this time is we still think it'll

00:30:32   be a double digit growth year again

00:30:34   or double digit growth quarter again

00:30:36   next quarter during the holiday quarter so

00:30:38   they're saying no they actually think that

00:30:40   the Mac is going to continue

00:30:42   showing growth

00:30:44   although I do think that some of it is

00:30:46   obviously

00:30:48   you're working at home

00:30:50   and you need to buy a new laptop or

00:30:52   your company puts

00:30:54   everybody at home and they're like okay we need to give

00:30:56   you guys new Macs because you don't have your laptops

00:30:58   are old and we're going to do that or it's

00:31:00   my kid is now going

00:31:02   to online school and we're going to buy them a new

00:31:04   Mac laptop and I think

00:31:06   also and not maybe as covered as widely

00:31:08   is we used to get by

00:31:10   with two laptops or a laptop

00:31:12   and a desktop in this house and now we have

00:31:14   four people here all of whom are

00:31:16   doing work or school all the time

00:31:18   and we can't share so

00:31:20   we have to buy I think all of those

00:31:22   scenarios are driving people

00:31:24   to say I need to

00:31:26   upgrade or add a

00:31:28   Mac to my life

00:31:30   and I think you know they don't

00:31:32   break I don't think they don't break

00:31:34   it out by units anymore right they just do

00:31:36   they don't they just just cash

00:31:38   right now so we and they you know remember

00:31:40   the oh so sweet in the old days they

00:31:42   would even tell you desktop versus

00:31:44   notebook oh yeah I was just looking

00:31:46   at for my for my historical

00:31:48   project that maybe we'll talk about a little bit

00:31:50   I was I was looking at the

00:31:52   an early 2000s keynote

00:31:54   and they mentioned that 75%

00:31:56   of their sales were desktops and I just

00:31:58   raised an eyebrow because like within a

00:32:00   decade it was the it was 75%

00:32:02   laptops right that flipped

00:32:04   so fast but in the early 2000s

00:32:06   they really did sell

00:32:08   far more desktops than

00:32:10   laptops I think you're right that there are

00:32:12   a whole multitude of reasons related

00:32:14   to the current quarantine

00:32:16   extended situation that could drive

00:32:18   people to buy Mac hardware

00:32:20   but I think part of it too

00:32:22   that's driving revenue up specifically

00:32:24   is in the I

00:32:26   can't help but think in the professional market there's a lot

00:32:28   of people who are recreating professional

00:32:30   setups that some of them

00:32:32   are higher margin systems even people

00:32:34   who therefore are

00:32:36   juiced in and know

00:32:38   hey this Apple Silicon thing's happening

00:32:40   in theory I might wait but

00:32:42   I'm usually working at home I'm

00:32:44   doing video or I'm doing audio

00:32:46   stuff and I'm really you know our development

00:32:48   something that really you really need

00:32:50   the best computer you can get

00:32:52   and it really saves you time and money to have

00:32:54   a truly professional workstation in

00:32:56   front of you there

00:32:58   people are recreating those

00:33:00   at home or just separate

00:33:02   and just in new places and so I think

00:33:04   it's driving a high margin stuff you know

00:33:06   which you might think would be like

00:33:08   the one end that would

00:33:10   suffer the most in the

00:33:12   Osborn effect

00:33:14   you know period between

00:33:16   WWDC and the actual shipping of

00:33:18   Apple Silicon I think even there

00:33:20   the quarantine situation is driving people

00:33:22   to say look I need a

00:33:24   Pro or

00:33:26   iMac right now

00:33:28   Yeah and I'm not

00:33:30   like I'm really bullish on Apple Silicon

00:33:32   but the fact is it's going to be

00:33:34   completely new and I think that even

00:33:36   among people who know

00:33:38   that it's coming

00:33:40   it's not 100%

00:33:42   clear that what you

00:33:44   want to do is wait and buy one right

00:33:46   there's certainly a strong argument that what you

00:33:48   want to do if you need a computer right now

00:33:50   is to buy the last Intel

00:33:52   Mac and then let Apple

00:33:54   Silicon shake out

00:33:56   and so the next time you need a Mac

00:33:58   it'll all be fine but

00:34:00   right now you've got tried and true Intel

00:34:02   Mac technology like

00:34:04   I think it's arguable either way

00:34:06   but certainly it's not the case that everybody who knows

00:34:08   that Apple Silicon is coming

00:34:10   is waiting for it

00:34:12   Yeah I think so

00:34:14   and it's just what an exciting time

00:34:16   but it also shows that

00:34:18   Apple is making this transition

00:34:20   from a position of strength

00:34:22   and what a contrast with

00:34:24   the PowerPC to Intel transition

00:34:26   right where it's not that the

00:34:28   2005

00:34:30   PowerPC Macs were

00:34:32   horrible right or

00:34:34   decrepit or just

00:34:36   you know to go back

00:34:38   to the Steve Jobs

00:34:40   even mentioned it even though it wasn't a hardware

00:34:42   transition it was a software transition when he announced

00:34:44   the Intel transition he said look we've been through

00:34:46   a few major transitions and the one was

00:34:48   you know classic Mac OS 9 to

00:34:50   OS 10 there were serious

00:34:52   computer science level

00:34:54   operating system

00:34:56   technical shortcomings

00:34:58   with the classic Mac OS

00:35:00   and not to belabor that point and do

00:35:02   a whole thing about it but there were some

00:35:04   really significant

00:35:06   problems there and it's not

00:35:08   just oh well just ship a new OS

00:35:10   you know because you needed all the third party

00:35:12   software to come along with it it was

00:35:14   complicated it took years you know

00:35:16   yeah PowerPC wasn't

00:35:18   quite in that bad of a shot space

00:35:20   where it looked like hey if they don't

00:35:22   do something because there were a lot of people I was

00:35:24   one as skeptic I'll admit I was wrong

00:35:26   you know I didn't think they were going to make the move I just

00:35:28   thought there were too many reasons that it would be too difficult

00:35:30   you know there

00:35:32   most people before that announcement weren't

00:35:34   thinking oh my god when is Apple going to move

00:35:36   it was like when are they

00:35:38   going to ship the G5

00:35:40   which yeah and when are they

00:35:42   going to ship a G5 laptop which never happened

00:35:44   right right that's I guess that's what I meant

00:35:46   when they get it was the three the three gigahertz

00:35:48   G5 which was promised

00:35:50   and never delivered and the G5 laptop

00:35:52   and what was happening behind the scenes

00:35:54   is IBM

00:35:56   couldn't deliver and

00:35:58   at some point

00:36:00   Apple and Steve Jobs basically said

00:36:02   we gotta we gotta flip the switch we gotta

00:36:04   get away from these guys because they're not you

00:36:06   know our life depends on them

00:36:08   and they're not focused on it

00:36:10   it's not their their life doesn't

00:36:12   and we gotta go to Intel

00:36:14   yeah so but it was it was

00:36:16   a moment of desperation it was like we gotta throw in

00:36:18   with the other guys because otherwise we're gonna be left

00:36:20   behind and it

00:36:22   was it was not a power move right it was

00:36:24   it was a power move only in the sense

00:36:26   that they had the

00:36:28   ability to walk away from

00:36:30   a vendor that in

00:36:32   IBM that was not pleasing them but

00:36:34   they were walking into the arms of

00:36:36   literally the supplier of every

00:36:38   other computer's processors

00:36:40   yeah so the risks that they were

00:36:42   taking were like we had

00:36:44   we had you know and there has been a

00:36:46   quote unquote hackintosh market

00:36:48   you know people have been able to get Mac OS 10

00:36:50   running on you know non-Apple hardware

00:36:52   it never turned into a significant

00:36:54   problem for the company nobody in

00:36:56   in the entire run of the Intel

00:36:58   Macs it's never been hey Apple

00:37:00   really screwed this up because people are just

00:37:02   robbing the company blind by buying

00:37:04   non-Apple computers and

00:37:06   running Mac OS 10 quote unquote

00:37:08   for free on them that

00:37:10   never really happened

00:37:12   but those were the sort of thoughts we had

00:37:14   as well what are the risks you know and

00:37:16   there were risks you know like well what if

00:37:18   developers never put their software over

00:37:20   but Apple did such a good job with

00:37:22   their developer tools that it really wasn't a

00:37:24   rough transition software wise

00:37:26   you know most stuff you know

00:37:28   shipped Intel

00:37:30   native pretty soon and PowerPC

00:37:32   stuff ran in emulation for enough

00:37:34   years

00:37:36   whereas this transition seems

00:37:38   a little bit riskier in terms of

00:37:40   they've got to bring it with

00:37:42   Apple silicon because Intel

00:37:44   Macs literally have never been more popular

00:37:46   that is not

00:37:48   that is not a hyperbole right that's the

00:37:50   whole point of what these quarterly results

00:37:52   are like I find that so

00:37:54   mind-boggling that Intel

00:37:56   Macs have never been more popular

00:37:58   and now is when they're

00:38:00   like well we're done with them

00:38:02   yeah it's echoes

00:38:04   of the getting rid of the iPod mini and

00:38:06   replacing with the iPod nano when it was their most

00:38:08   popular product and they killed it to replace it with

00:38:10   something else but I think

00:38:12   when we talk about Apple silicon you know

00:38:14   I have people ask me what

00:38:16   do you think like is it

00:38:18   going to be better or is it going to be shaky

00:38:20   and my response is always

00:38:22   Apple completely

00:38:24   controls when they make the move

00:38:26   completely

00:38:28   they choose the moment to switch to Apple

00:38:30   silicon and it's their

00:38:32   pride on the line not just the quality

00:38:34   of the Mac but the quality of

00:38:36   their processing

00:38:38   power their processor system that

00:38:40   they are so proud of they

00:38:42   wouldn't make the move

00:38:44   if it was going to be disappointing they're

00:38:46   making it because they know it's going to blow people

00:38:48   away they really do because and I know

00:38:50   that if you can roll your eyes at that and be like oh well

00:38:52   you know whatever we'll see what it is but

00:38:54   if you're Apple and you're not

00:38:56   going to impress people why would you

00:38:58   do it right you just wait right wait until

00:39:00   you can impress people but what we've seen

00:39:02   on the on the smartphone side is Apple

00:39:04   is

00:39:06   more than a year ahead of Qualcomm

00:39:08   essentially that when the new A14

00:39:10   comes out the A13 is still

00:39:12   the fastest smartphone chip until the moment the

00:39:14   A14 comes out that they've lapped the field

00:39:16   basically

00:39:18   and so they think they can do

00:39:20   the same thing with Apple silicon

00:39:22   and again if

00:39:24   it was going to be lackluster they wouldn't do it

00:39:26   because it would make them look bad

00:39:28   like they're doing it because they know

00:39:30   exactly how

00:39:32   impressive it's going to be compared to

00:39:34   the existing Intel processors

00:39:36   I really agree

00:39:40   with it I need to write this for Daring Fireball

00:39:42   because and I know

00:39:44   there's so many people who seem to be under the

00:39:46   impression that like the first

00:39:48   Apple silicon Mac is going

00:39:50   definitely they think going to be

00:39:52   like a return of the 12 inch MacBook

00:39:54   very small

00:39:56   think you know like an iPad

00:39:58   super I guess sliver of a computer

00:40:00   a little 12 inch laptop

00:40:02   right when it'll have the A14X

00:40:04   or the A14M for

00:40:06   Mac or something like that and

00:40:08   that'll be it and who knows

00:40:10   when we'll see the next it's like

00:40:12   the it's just like dot dot dot or

00:40:14   yada yada yada well who knows

00:40:16   when we'll see the rest of the lineup

00:40:18   and I think that's

00:40:20   it's that's just way too obvious you're not

00:40:22   thinking big enough and I

00:40:24   keep thinking back to the

00:40:26   WWDC announcement of this

00:40:28   when they cut to Johnny Serugy down

00:40:30   in this quote unquote secret lab

00:40:32   which

00:40:34   I think might have actually been

00:40:36   like you know like when they shoot in those places

00:40:38   those are like real rooms and I know they

00:40:40   set dress them and

00:40:42   and people I think waste their

00:40:44   time looking for like unannounced

00:40:46   hardware sitting in there like

00:40:48   like yeah it's a set

00:40:50   they don't just show up with a camera

00:40:52   and just happen to shoot whatever's

00:40:54   in these labs but they

00:40:56   they are like I think where they

00:40:58   actually shoot you know where they actually do some of

00:41:00   this work in in Apple Park right I think

00:41:02   so they're you're right they're set dressed but

00:41:04   but real and and they are

00:41:06   probably in Apple Park although they might not be

00:41:08   but well Serugy's team

00:41:10   isn't is in Apple Park

00:41:12   I think Apple Park is that whole campus but

00:41:14   Serugy's team famously has like

00:41:16   their whole big secret building

00:41:18   off to the side they're outside the ring

00:41:20   interesting I don't know if

00:41:22   that's where they shot that segment but

00:41:24   that whole chip team is sort of off to

00:41:26   the side but

00:41:28   if you just listen to Serugy's

00:41:30   segment he

00:41:32   he you know it it's

00:41:34   very appley where they want

00:41:36   to pre-announce this they're

00:41:38   they want to you know we got to tell developers

00:41:40   we got to have you know we're going to ship

00:41:42   you know this developer

00:41:44   kit hardware we want to get

00:41:46   native stuff

00:41:48   on day one so we can have

00:41:50   native software even though we're going to have emulation

00:41:52   to keep stuff working for compatibility

00:41:54   that's not the point of this

00:41:56   but we don't want to spill all the secrets

00:41:58   right and so how do you how do you

00:42:00   navigate that but would

00:42:02   when you listen to what Serugy said

00:42:04   he he talked about

00:42:06   the and I think

00:42:08   that the similarities between

00:42:10   iPad and iPhone

00:42:12   over the years all the whole era

00:42:14   of iPad has been taking

00:42:16   even though iPad had the

00:42:18   some stuff first you know had LTE

00:42:20   first and had

00:42:22   I think the first Apple silicon with the number

00:42:24   was in an iPad I think like

00:42:26   the A4 or whatever

00:42:28   I don't know maybe I don't know but it's

00:42:30   you know it's not like the iPad always

00:42:32   comes second but

00:42:34   and again like you said earlier the iPad

00:42:36   Air got announced with the A14

00:42:38   first even if you know it shipped

00:42:40   at the same time but

00:42:42   but you know they tend to

00:42:44   even with the iPad Pros they just take

00:42:46   the A11

00:42:48   add an X and the

00:42:50   X represents additional like

00:42:52   GPU cores

00:42:54   yeah and processor cores right

00:42:56   processor cores and more graphics

00:42:58   horsepower but it's fundamentally

00:43:00   and like on single core benchmarks

00:43:02   like Geekbench it scores

00:43:04   exactly the same because it

00:43:06   really is the same chip

00:43:08   for single core processing

00:43:10   that's that's what they do with iPad

00:43:14   and it works great for iPad right it's not

00:43:16   like anybody's looking at iPads and

00:43:18   saying boy these iPads are slow right

00:43:20   nobody has ever said that right they've always

00:43:22   been like wow these are just feels really fast

00:43:24   but

00:43:26   when Srouchi talked about this he talked about

00:43:28   how they took their when they made

00:43:30   Apple Watch and they took everything they know

00:43:32   but they had to shrink it down

00:43:34   to fit in a tiny little thing on a wrist

00:43:36   right they didn't take the

00:43:38   A8 or whatever

00:43:40   A9 whatever year it was when the

00:43:42   first Apple Watch came out and make like

00:43:44   the A8

00:43:46   W chip and have a big

00:43:48   you know big by the watch

00:43:50   standards phone chip

00:43:52   running on your wrist they

00:43:54   made something altogether new

00:43:56   that could enable something to run

00:43:58   all day on your wrist

00:44:00   and then he just more or less says that's what

00:44:02   we're going to do for pro workstations

00:44:04   and it's like in other words to

00:44:06   me the implication is as much

00:44:08   smaller that the watch is than the phone

00:44:10   some of the stuff they're working on the

00:44:12   Mac is going to be that much bigger

00:44:14   than what they do with the phone

00:44:16   like to me that was like goosebumps

00:44:18   that was like yeah this is what I want man

00:44:20   I think

00:44:22   I think so you know we don't know

00:44:24   for sure there are rumors

00:44:26   that are conflicting about it

00:44:28   we know that they said it's a two year process so I

00:44:30   think that that means that all

00:44:32   Intel Macs everywhere are not going to be replaced

00:44:34   for two years it gives them

00:44:36   you know at most two years it gives them a little bit of a

00:44:38   time but I did a piece on six colors

00:44:40   where I basically tried to extrapolate

00:44:42   this is before the A14 came out so it's

00:44:44   actually I was a little conservative on the A14

00:44:46   so it's actually even more true I

00:44:48   think now but the idea that

00:44:50   how fast would

00:44:52   an A14X an iPad

00:44:54   class so like four performance

00:44:56   scores chip be

00:44:58   in terms of like Geekbench scores

00:45:00   multi-threaded multi-processing

00:45:02   score and the

00:45:04   answer is if you just took the

00:45:06   iPad chip you're developing and put it in

00:45:08   a MacBook a 12 inch MacBook or something

00:45:10   like that a consumer Mac

00:45:12   it would be faster than

00:45:14   the high-end MacBook Pro 16 inch

00:45:16   that was announced last year

00:45:18   and almost as fast as the 8 core

00:45:20   top of the line iMac

00:45:22   that was announced earlier this year that's

00:45:24   probably the last Intel iMac and that's

00:45:26   the iPad

00:45:28   and then if you do and I think

00:45:30   that this may be what they do is they've got

00:45:32   this A14X or whatever that is

00:45:34   that is something that they can put in iPads and they can put

00:45:36   in low-end Macs or maybe a

00:45:38   low-end Mac laptops MacBook Air

00:45:40   MacBook that kind of thing I

00:45:42   assume there's also a Mac

00:45:44   specific

00:45:46   processor that is more

00:45:48   powerful that has more cores

00:45:50   and is clocked up and has

00:45:52   more interesting things going on with graphics

00:45:54   and who knows what else that's made just

00:45:56   for the Mac and

00:45:58   I just threw into my little spreadsheet

00:46:00   again let's extrapolate that they add

00:46:02   on because the rumors are that

00:46:04   that there is a Mac chip and it's got

00:46:06   eight performance scores

00:46:08   and if that's true

00:46:10   then you just do the math and it's like you're now

00:46:12   in the zone where that Apple Silicon

00:46:14   Mac chip that's the pro Mac chip

00:46:16   is roughly

00:46:18   halfway in performance between the high-end

00:46:20   iMac and the high-end

00:46:22   28 core Mac Pro it's

00:46:24   basically in Mac Pro territory

00:46:26   firmly in Mac Pro

00:46:28   territory and you could have that in a

00:46:30   MacBook Pro potentially. So

00:46:32   this is why I said earlier that

00:46:34   I'm bullish on Apple Silicon I think that

00:46:36   they are approaching this

00:46:38   from a position of confidence that they

00:46:40   know they can impress that if

00:46:42   you extrapolate the speeds

00:46:44   that they've got on the iPad and the iPhone

00:46:46   it's really clear that

00:46:48   they can build this stuff and have it be

00:46:50   way faster than any

00:46:52   comparable Intel Mac.

00:46:54   Yeah, it's

00:46:56   almost undeniable.

00:46:58   The other thing to keep in mind they've never shipped

00:47:00   a custom silicon

00:47:02   CPU chip

00:47:04   designed from the ground up

00:47:06   to be to not be

00:47:08   run off a battery.

00:47:10   Right? Everything they've ever

00:47:12   done is run off. Now there's Apple TV

00:47:14   which doesn't

00:47:16   have a battery but Apple

00:47:18   TV is a product that has just sort of

00:47:20   gotten well you could just take a

00:47:22   two-year-old A-series chip and we'll just put it in there

00:47:24   you know they don't design custom silicon

00:47:26   for Apple TV.

00:47:28   They've never had

00:47:30   a device that is

00:47:32   well you know

00:47:34   when the chip team is like well what what

00:47:36   are we working with and it's like

00:47:38   imagine that you've been on this team

00:47:40   for like over a decade

00:47:42   building these things where battery life

00:47:44   is if not the

00:47:46   biggest concern one of right

00:47:48   no discussion

00:47:50   no day goes by where you're not taking

00:47:52   into consideration battery

00:47:54   life and you say

00:47:56   oh no you're designing a device

00:47:58   that will always have power.

00:48:00   It's like glorious right and

00:48:02   sort of personal computing

00:48:04   the whole Intel architecture came

00:48:06   the other way right it came from

00:48:08   an era where laptops were

00:48:10   you know exotic and sort of

00:48:12   you know they were just desktops

00:48:14   running and we talk about

00:48:16   the Mac's history in that regard

00:48:18   where you could literally just they just

00:48:20   took a Mac and put it in a suitcase

00:48:22   you know. Yep.

00:48:24   It's a Mac portable now.

00:48:26   Enjoy. It is just a

00:48:28   terribly terribly exciting time to be

00:48:30   a Mac enthusiast because it's

00:48:32   the platform is thriving it is popular

00:48:34   it has clearly has the company's

00:48:36   interest and

00:48:38   it's another way to look at

00:48:40   it is in

00:48:42   terms of why do this now

00:48:44   if they were going

00:48:46   to take the easy road

00:48:48   the easy road obviously is just to

00:48:50   keep making Intel Macs they've never

00:48:52   been more popular and they don't have to do any

00:48:54   not that they don't have to do work I'm not saying

00:48:56   it's easy for the

00:48:58   computer engineers at Apple to make

00:49:00   the Macs they've been making for

00:49:02   14-15 years with

00:49:04   Intel systems

00:49:06   but it's easier than

00:49:08   doing that plus designing

00:49:10   your own chips

00:49:12   right? It's

00:49:14   yeah there was that pivotal moment

00:49:16   and you along with some other

00:49:18   journalists got invited to talk to

00:49:20   Phil Schiller and some other people

00:49:22   about the future of the Mac and that was the

00:49:24   announcement that there was going to be a new Mac Pro and

00:49:26   that Apple was recommitting to Pro customers and

00:49:28   honestly up until that moment I felt like

00:49:30   that's exactly where Apple was that they had just

00:49:32   decided the Mac is a legacy platform and we

00:49:34   love it but we're just not going to put a lot of effort

00:49:36   into it it's going to be what it's going to be

00:49:38   it's not going to really change we'll use Intel's latest

00:49:40   processors we'll update it every year or two

00:49:42   and we'll just kind of let it motor on

00:49:44   and it would be fine and

00:49:46   at some point they said

00:49:48   no okay let's go the other way

00:49:50   with the Mac we're going to take the Mac and it's going to be

00:49:52   part of our strategy and that means the Mac

00:49:54   has to change and

00:49:56   that's going to ruffle some feathers of old school Mac

00:49:58   users but the Mac's going to change

00:50:00   and we're going to take it into the future

00:50:02   and we're going to use our processors and we're going to

00:50:04   run iOS apps on it and

00:50:06   it's going to be a very

00:50:08   different future for the Mac but the Mac

00:50:10   is going to be you know it's going to have

00:50:12   this opportunity to become far more than it

00:50:14   was and that's that moment

00:50:16   because it really was Apple

00:50:18   saying are we going to put effort into the Mac or

00:50:20   are we just going to write it off as a legacy technology

00:50:22   and everything we've seen since

00:50:24   then suggests that they have been slowly

00:50:26   grinding up, cranking up all the

00:50:28   years to do that and

00:50:30   the Apple Silicon announcement combined

00:50:32   with the fact that in that announcement

00:50:34   they said yeah you know

00:50:36   we're going to integrate iOS compatibility

00:50:38   in Apple Silicon

00:50:40   and Mac OS Big Sur like

00:50:42   that is you know

00:50:44   if they were just putting them on life support

00:50:46   none of that would have happened and it shows

00:50:48   that Apple now considers the

00:50:50   Mac I mean you could argue the

00:50:52   Mac is the center point

00:50:54   of Apple's product

00:50:56   lineup now or at least

00:50:58   will be shortly because it's going to

00:51:00   run all the software

00:51:02   on essentially all

00:51:04   of its major you know non-watch

00:51:06   non-Apple TV platforms

00:51:08   right and it becomes that iOS

00:51:10   is a subset of Mac instead of

00:51:12   being like the dominant platform

00:51:14   in the Mac is this weird thing on the side

00:51:16   and that is you know it took them

00:51:18   years to get there but I feel like there must

00:51:20   have been a moment internally where they decided

00:51:22   let's not treat the Mac

00:51:24   as a legacy platform and I'm

00:51:26   all in for that because I want the Mac to

00:51:28   grow and thrive and not just kind of calcify

00:51:30   and be a legacy

00:51:32   platform because that way lies death

00:51:34   you know eventually it might motor on

00:51:36   for a while when I started at

00:51:38   Mac user in the 90s there was still an

00:51:40   Apple 2 magazine that they put out upstairs

00:51:42   right like I mean it can do that for

00:51:44   a while but it's an end game

00:51:46   you know that it's just going to trail down and

00:51:48   and Apple decided not to do that with Mac

00:51:50   yeah and so it's terribly exciting

00:51:52   but what a

00:51:54   what a quarter ahead

00:51:56   yeah did you see

00:51:58   I don't even know what to make of this that

00:52:00   the Big Sur

00:52:02   11 Mac OS 11

00:52:04   point 0.1

00:52:06   beta is already out

00:52:08   but

00:52:10   Mac OS 11.0 is not

00:52:12   out which the only

00:52:14   reasonable explanation for this

00:52:16   this is

00:52:18   not this might

00:52:20   just sound like oh they're just numbers you

00:52:22   stick on operating systems but to

00:52:24   developers this is meaningful right

00:52:26   like because now there's an operating system

00:52:28   that their software

00:52:30   might be needed expected

00:52:32   to work on that isn't out

00:52:34   it's it is not it is a

00:52:36   big deal it is a big WTF

00:52:38   for Mac developers where is

00:52:40   the final the golden master of

00:52:42   11.0.0 right and

00:52:44   you know the best guess is

00:52:46   it's on a bunch of Apple silicon

00:52:48   Macs that haven't been announced yet

00:52:50   right that will presumably

00:52:52   update to 11.0.1

00:52:54   as soon as that comes out

00:52:56   perhaps the moment they get taken out of the box

00:52:58   who knows but that they needed to lock it

00:53:00   in order to write it to all the

00:53:02   drives in order to ship all of

00:53:04   those so that they can announce it and ship it

00:53:06   that's that's the best guess but you know the developers

00:53:08   would still like a golden master to

00:53:10   test against I suspect on their

00:53:12   developer kits at least

00:53:14   and a final version of Xcode

00:53:16   and all of those things too.

00:53:18   Apple, they are one

00:53:20   company and in a lot of ways

00:53:22   they've never been more unified

00:53:24   with hardware and software

00:53:26   you know working together

00:53:28   and teams working together and all of

00:53:30   that but it

00:53:32   exemplifies how software and hardware

00:53:34   are two very different things

00:53:36   and there's Apple the hardware company

00:53:38   that is keeping these

00:53:40   Apple silicon Macs under wrap

00:53:42   and wants to have a big splashy

00:53:44   debut and then

00:53:46   there's Apple the company making a

00:53:48   desktop professional workstation

00:53:50   operating system who's

00:53:52   doing something that makes absolutely

00:53:54   no sense from the software. No other

00:53:56   company in the world would

00:53:58   start distributing

00:54:00   developer betas of

00:54:02   a .1 update

00:54:04   to an operating system

00:54:06   that still hasn't been out

00:54:08   Yeah, let's throw in the mix

00:54:10   this is something that I only thought

00:54:12   about the other day

00:54:14   which is

00:54:16   because Big Sur on

00:54:18   Apple silicon will run iOS

00:54:20   apps, what that

00:54:22   means is we are now at the point

00:54:24   where shipping Mac OS requires

00:54:26   you to ship essentially a version of

00:54:28   iOS.

00:54:30   Right, they build together, they have to build together

00:54:32   because they have to run iOS apps

00:54:34   in Mac OS on Apple silicon which means

00:54:36   essentially Mac OS

00:54:38   is also not only are

00:54:40   Apple silicon Macs a superset

00:54:42   of iOS

00:54:44   but Mac OS is a superset

00:54:46   of iOS which means that

00:54:48   I think first off it means that it

00:54:50   will always have to ship

00:54:52   either perfectly in parallel or more likely

00:54:54   after iOS because

00:54:56   you've got to have a

00:54:58   stable thing and some compatibility

00:55:00   among apps and all of that but it does

00:55:02   add that extra layer of complexity and I wonder

00:55:04   if that factors in too right because

00:55:06   so then there's an iOS update you presumably

00:55:08   need to do a Mac OS update at that point

00:55:10   because you want to bring the whole platform

00:55:12   up it's just it's really

00:55:14   complicated and they're also shipping this hardware

00:55:16   that they're not yet announced

00:55:18   and is not yet actually shipping

00:55:20   and I don't envy them

00:55:22   it's a really high degree of

00:55:24   difficulty the stuff that they're working on

00:55:26   Right because there's you know effectively

00:55:28   there's a baseline level of iOS

00:55:30   it's not like

00:55:32   these apps are running

00:55:34   in emulation

00:55:36   in iOS on the Mac but

00:55:38   there's a you know

00:55:40   you got to draw the line. They're calling all of the

00:55:42   iOS API's though to run.

00:55:44   Yeah exactly there's got to be a line

00:55:46   you say and say these are the

00:55:48   API's that we're supporting and

00:55:50   when some of them are new

00:55:52   they have to ship

00:55:54   before

00:55:56   the Mac can come out. Yeah you turn on the app

00:55:58   store with Big Sur and try

00:56:00   on an Apple Silicon Mac and try to download

00:56:02   an app and it says sorry it's not

00:56:04   compatible with your version

00:56:06   of iOS and you're like wait a second I'm not running

00:56:08   iOS I'm running Mac OS and you said

00:56:10   I could download it so why can't I and like

00:56:12   they have to that's part of the

00:56:14   launch of Apple Silicon is that like

00:56:16   what's the app store experience like because

00:56:18   presumably some degree

00:56:20   of those apps are either opted in

00:56:22   or auto opted in or something

00:56:24   and you can see them and you can just run those

00:56:26   iOS apps and they need to run

00:56:28   they need to be presumably

00:56:30   on a one to one with what

00:56:32   the release version of iOS is in terms

00:56:34   of compatibility. Yeah so it has gotten

00:56:36   a lot more complicated

00:56:38   and they're all but exciting

00:56:40   right it's like I can't believe

00:56:42   you know if you had told me

00:56:44   five years ago that this was going to happen I would have said

00:56:46   pinch me like I don't believe you

00:56:48   we'll see how it goes right we'll see

00:56:50   what the there will be issues and it'll be complicated

00:56:52   and it'll be weird but like

00:56:54   I just wouldn't believe that

00:56:56   Apple would try something quite this

00:56:58   with that moment when they said it's going to run iOS apps

00:57:00   I'm like really really

00:57:02   it's like yeah they're going they're going all the way

00:57:04   Yeah well

00:57:06   we'll find out soon enough but

00:57:08   the last thing before we move on from the Mac

00:57:10   I do want to tell you what better time

00:57:12   to talk about it than now is your

00:57:14   20 max

00:57:16   for 2020 podcast limited

00:57:18   run podcast I think is a fair way

00:57:20   to describe it it's

00:57:22   what would be the Netflix equivalent

00:57:24   limited series

00:57:26   I don't know it's a limited series it's a mini series

00:57:28   yeah sure

00:57:30   how would you what's the

00:57:32   description

00:57:34   it's been going on for months but

00:57:36   for people if they've missed it

00:57:38   yeah so

00:57:40   I decided to give myself a project for 2020

00:57:42   because

00:57:44   working for myself in my office

00:57:46   by myself I wanted to have some

00:57:48   structure and I thought well this would be a fun thing

00:57:50   why don't I make a top 20 list of

00:57:52   notable max and write essays

00:57:54   about each one and I'll roll it out over 20 weeks

00:57:56   and that'll be kind of a fun project and people

00:57:58   like Liszt and Joe Pysnanski who I mentioned

00:58:00   earlier the sports writer he did a baseball 100

00:58:02   about the 100 greatest players in baseball

00:58:04   history and I thought it was a fun idea and

00:58:06   also my friend Simon Jerry who

00:58:08   was the editor in chief at Macworld UK for a long time

00:58:10   had a series called Apple A to Z

00:58:12   where he wrote like you know

00:58:14   over 26 months in Macworld

00:58:16   UK he wrote his column was

00:58:18   from A to Z and

00:58:20   I thought this is a long term project that's

00:58:22   fun I picked top 20

00:58:24   max

00:58:26   because most of them I've either had or

00:58:28   covered and

00:58:30   in the expanse of

00:58:32   Apple history and honestly

00:58:34   if it had been 20 essays it would have been a

00:58:36   pretty easy project and I would

00:58:38   be done with it by now but at some point I said

00:58:40   to myself well

00:58:42   if I'm gonna do this shouldn't there be a video

00:58:44   and shouldn't there be a podcast

00:58:46   which

00:58:48   was my fail mistake

00:58:50   because the podcast especially

00:58:52   has been an awful lot of work because I ended up

00:58:54   the idea was that my

00:58:56   essays are my kind of just take

00:58:58   on this I made the list and then I explained

00:59:00   the list to you and I thought well a lot

00:59:02   of other people have opinions about

00:59:04   these systems and these

00:59:06   max through history and they're personal and

00:59:08   and also sort of analytical

00:59:10   about it and I know a lot of people

00:59:12   who have opinions about this why don't I talk

00:59:14   to them and do

00:59:16   a companion podcast that

00:59:18   sort of is not just my voice but

00:59:20   is their voices about

00:59:22   these systems that I've picked these notable

00:59:24   max and so that's

00:59:26   what it is and you have been one of the

00:59:28   participants in that I just edited one for next

00:59:30   week that has a whole

00:59:32   little like place where the podcast

00:59:34   stops because you have

00:59:36   a theory about why a particular product

00:59:38   failed and for about two

00:59:40   minutes it's like okay follow

00:59:42   me here and then it's John Gruber's

00:59:44   gonna tell you why this product failed and

00:59:46   it's just been a lot of fun to do and I've gotten a lot of

00:59:48   interesting people involved people

00:59:50   that you recognize from podcasts like

00:59:52   you and Stephen Hackett

00:59:54   and John Syracuse but also

00:59:56   some people I worked with

00:59:58   way back in the day like Shelley

01:00:00   Brisbane who I worked with at Mac user and Rick

01:00:02   LePage who was the editor at Mac week

01:00:04   and I along the way there were a couple

01:00:06   times where I didn't actually know the history and

01:00:08   talked to people who were involved

01:00:10   especially with a Mac clone era

01:00:12   because that was such a strange era

01:00:14   and it's been a fun project and I'm really

01:00:16   proud of the result it was a good creative challenge for

01:00:18   me to learn a totally different kind of podcast

01:00:20   it's not a conversational show

01:00:22   like this it really is like I did

01:00:24   interviews with all these people and I wrote a script and

01:00:26   I put it all together and you hear all

01:00:28   the different voices coming in and out and like

01:00:30   it's a whole I'm pretty proud of it and

01:00:32   it's so it's on relay FM

01:00:34   and they're releasing weekly

01:00:36   and it's been a lot of fun

01:00:38   it's been a lot of work but that's why it is a limited

01:00:40   series right is I know that there's a light

01:00:42   at the end of the tunnel but at the end of the year

01:00:44   the project is over

01:00:46   and that makes me happy too

01:00:48   because it's been a lot it's been a lot of

01:00:50   work again if I just stuck to essays

01:00:52   I would have been fine but I

01:00:54   raised the bar for myself a little bit

01:00:56   I love it I love

01:00:58   my participation in

01:01:00   it but I also

01:01:02   really love and

01:01:04   you know behind the scenes

01:01:06   a bit of it is you invited me very

01:01:08   kindly and very graciously and I'm

01:01:10   super happy to accept and so

01:01:12   you know I'd be heartbroken if you didn't

01:01:14   I really would I'd be so upset

01:01:16   I'd be so mad like if

01:01:18   you and I had had some falling out at some point

01:01:20   I'd be like I never should have never should have

01:01:22   pissed Jason Snow off because I would like to

01:01:24   be on this this series

01:01:26   really a thrill

01:01:28   to be part of it but

01:01:30   the part that's awesome is that

01:01:32   you're like look you made the list right there

01:01:34   was no voting you didn't you didn't like

01:01:36   send out polls this is Jason Snow's

01:01:38   list of 20 max and that it is what

01:01:40   it is and you're a you're a nicer guy

01:01:42   than I am in terms of how

01:01:44   you broke that to people but

01:01:46   but

01:01:48   but it's a good

01:01:50   I think that I think you did it exactly

01:01:52   right I think it's brilliantly conceived in

01:01:54   that way but then it's like

01:01:56   look here's here are my picks here are the

01:01:58   you know which ones would you like

01:02:00   to talk about which ones do you have strong opinions

01:02:02   about and there are some that

01:02:04   I have extremely strong opinions about

01:02:06   and there are some that I don't at all

01:02:08   and so it's not like I

01:02:10   had to make up stuff that I

01:02:12   don't have a strong opinion about but

01:02:14   I have found listening to those episodes

01:02:16   to be I love them I

01:02:18   love the ones that I was like

01:02:20   I don't care about the that

01:02:22   that Mac but now I'm listening to it

01:02:24   and I'm hearing stories and I'm like huh this is

01:02:26   great and I forget which one it was I

01:02:28   I wish I remember I remember where I was

01:02:30   in Philadelphia I was

01:02:32   right around literally

01:02:34   I just the way my mind works I remember I was right

01:02:36   around 18th and Sansom Street here in Philadelphia

01:02:38   and I'm listening to an

01:02:40   episode don't remember which Mac it was

01:02:42   and I was so upset I was like why didn't I

01:02:44   tell Jason I wanted to talk about this one these people

01:02:46   are all and then all of a sudden and here's John

01:02:48   Gruber and I'm like oh thank

01:02:50   God I did talk about this

01:02:52   and I made the exact point that I

01:02:54   wanted I was thinking and I

01:02:56   was like oh yeah yeah thank God I was there to

01:02:58   to make those

01:03:00   I had that same

01:03:02   location memory with

01:03:04   podcasts where I can remember very

01:03:06   specifically where I was if I was out walking

01:03:08   around when I heard a particular thing it's a weird

01:03:10   weird thing but I'm glad you like it

01:03:12   that is I think that is a perfect moment anybody

01:03:14   who's edited podcasts you have that moment where

01:03:16   you think oh I

01:03:18   would make this joke here or I would say this thing

01:03:20   here and then you listen back and you that's what

01:03:22   you did I'm like how do we get 10 minutes

01:03:24   into talking about this Mac and nobody has brought

01:03:26   up X Y and Z and then there I am and it's

01:03:28   like ah it's

01:03:30   just great I think people who listen to who enjoy

01:03:32   listening to us talk really if

01:03:34   you haven't been following you should jump on it

01:03:36   it is a great great thing

01:03:38   and the I can only

01:03:40   imagine how much work has gone into editing

01:03:42   this but it comes across so

01:03:44   tight and it's just

01:03:46   a delight to listen to

01:03:48   well thank you it's been a lot of fun to do

01:03:50   and a fun creative challenge I've been

01:03:52   using this app called Descript which

01:03:54   basically does

01:03:56   speech to text transcription

01:03:58   of all the audio files you give

01:04:00   it and then you can actually

01:04:02   edit your audio like a word

01:04:04   processor so I get

01:04:06   all of the Power

01:04:08   Mac G5 let's say

01:04:10   audio from every person I talk to

01:04:12   and I paste it all into one document

01:04:14   and then I kind of copy and paste and I move it around

01:04:16   and then write some stuff and

01:04:18   that's how those episodes get

01:04:20   edited which is

01:04:22   such a different

01:04:24   approach from normal podcast

01:04:26   editing but it is like

01:04:28   editing it's actually a lot like editing that report

01:04:30   card thing I do every year where I'm taking

01:04:32   downloads from people in emails and I'm

01:04:34   kind of getting the best bits and

01:04:36   organizing them together it's a very similar thing

01:04:38   except at the end you press a button and audio comes

01:04:40   out which is pretty amazing

01:04:42   there's a little more work you have to do but it's been fun

01:04:44   to do that and the funniest thing is

01:04:46   all of those interviews are separate right so you

01:04:48   riff on something and John

01:04:50   Siracusa riffs on something and James Thompson riffs

01:04:52   on something and then I'm

01:04:54   going through it and then like all of a sudden

01:04:56   you're all riffing on it together

01:04:58   because you all are talking about the same things

01:05:00   with slightly different perspectives and

01:05:02   sometimes those are really magical where it's

01:05:04   like you guys are finishing each

01:05:06   other's sentences it's

01:05:08   been a lot of fun to do so I'll

01:05:10   be happy when it's over because it's a lot of

01:05:12   work but I'm really enjoying the fact that we're

01:05:14   in the top 10 and we're counting down to number

01:05:16   one because the Macs just

01:05:18   get more interesting to me at least because I made the

01:05:20   list as we go. You started

01:05:22   this before Apple officially

01:05:24   said that Apple Silicon Macs

01:05:26   were coming right?

01:05:28   Yeah, I started this list

01:05:30   in December because I thought 2020 was

01:05:32   just going to be a perfectly normal year

01:05:34   and we've been

01:05:36   been speculating about this for

01:05:38   years both

01:05:40   you don't have to have any insiders

01:05:42   telling you that they're working

01:05:44   on it to just look

01:05:46   at the numbers and

01:05:48   think about Apple's desire for

01:05:50   controlling their own stuff to think that

01:05:52   Apple would be at

01:05:54   least looking at making its own silicon

01:05:56   but then there were rumors and

01:05:58   Mark Gurman in particular has had

01:06:00   some you know

01:06:02   it was on the pretty much on the nose

01:06:04   that this would be the year when they finally do it

01:06:06   but it wasn't

01:06:08   certain right? I mean I predicted

01:06:10   it at least I was at

01:06:12   least two years early I thought they would do it by

01:06:14   2018. John I've been

01:06:16   predicting Apple Silicon Macs for like

01:06:18   three years in a row something like

01:06:20   that like I keep I do that at the end

01:06:22   of the year for Macworld I write these prediction pieces

01:06:24   are sort of like wish casting slash prediction

01:06:26   and every year I do one that's

01:06:28   like how did I do and for the last

01:06:30   two or three years it's been well no

01:06:32   no no Macs running

01:06:34   on ARM that still hasn't happened

01:06:36   so I guess this year maybe we'll get

01:06:38   it right. But you know

01:06:40   it's just so interesting because listening to

01:06:42   the 2020

01:06:44   part of what makes it so

01:06:46   great is that there's such this vibrant

01:06:48   history of oddball Macs

01:06:50   and I say that not oddball

01:06:52   like they were weird or bad but like ones

01:06:54   that just stick out

01:06:56   it's just like a model

01:06:58   I mean the the G3

01:07:00   first iMac just you know

01:07:02   everybody remembers it it just looks so different

01:07:04   and so new and sure it had

01:07:06   successors and you know

01:07:08   you know the Dalmatian colors and

01:07:10   you know there was some goofy stuff in

01:07:12   there but flower power flower power

01:07:14   but

01:07:16   that first one really sticks out

01:07:18   like boom this is this

01:07:20   is new you know and

01:07:22   it there was

01:07:24   a stretch where Apple

01:07:26   part of that malaise before

01:07:28   their their sort of that

01:07:30   that summit you referenced where they're like look

01:07:32   we've you know been thinking about this you know

01:07:34   backed ourselves into a thermal corner

01:07:36   on the Mac

01:07:38   Pro in particular but we've

01:07:40   also been working on a pro

01:07:42   iMac which we now know is the iMac

01:07:44   Pro but there was sort of an under

01:07:46   current of that summit that

01:07:48   was sort of like we've been rethinking the whole

01:07:50   platform it's not just about

01:07:52   the trash can Mac Pro

01:07:54   you know and it's you know

01:07:56   I think that's what's gotten us here and they

01:07:58   have come out with some models

01:08:00   in the last few years

01:08:02   that will be memorable

01:08:04   historically you know 10 15 years from

01:08:06   now we will remember the first

01:08:08   retina MacBook

01:08:10   Air right that was because we

01:08:12   you know we waited for it for so long and it was

01:08:14   really good and popular and had

01:08:16   a bad keyboard we will

01:08:18   remember that

01:08:20   but there was a stretch there and I think

01:08:22   the MacBook Air exemplifies

01:08:24   that stretch

01:08:26   of stagnant hardware

01:08:28   you know where where

01:08:30   before it went retina when

01:08:32   the Mac the 999

01:08:34   dollar entry model MacBook Air

01:08:36   looked exactly the same

01:08:38   and had the exact same non

01:08:40   retina display

01:08:42   seemingly

01:08:44   for like a decade which

01:08:46   wasn't true but it just felt like

01:08:48   man this is like we were

01:08:50   wearing bell bottoms at sideburns

01:08:52   back when this thing came out I mean this was a long

01:08:54   time ago

01:08:56   they've you know and they came out with the iMac

01:08:58   Pro and the new Mac Pro

01:09:00   is on Intel and launched last year

01:09:02   and it's you know they've had some some

01:09:04   landmark Macs but there's just no

01:09:06   doubt in my mind landmark Macs

01:09:08   are coming ones that you know

01:09:10   when we do 30 for 30 in 10 years

01:09:12   that we'll be talking about

01:09:14   I think I think that's true I think

01:09:16   it's gonna take you know it takes a little time to

01:09:18   understand and I don't have a lot of

01:09:20   very recent models on my list

01:09:22   because I do think it takes a little time to

01:09:24   understand quite why they

01:09:26   were important and where they fit in kind of the

01:09:28   the sweep of of 36

01:09:30   plus years of Mac history

01:09:32   but I do think it's

01:09:34   got to be right like they're gonna be some

01:09:36   really remarkable things

01:09:38   as a part of this transition

01:09:40   and so yeah for 25 for

01:09:42   25 or 30 for 30 we'll

01:09:44   we'll revisit and I can rejigger my dumb

01:09:46   list it's like when you when people

01:09:48   come out with a list of the best 100 movies

01:09:50   or 50 movies or something like that when

01:09:52   you're 19, 20, 21 years

01:09:54   old and you first feel

01:09:56   like oh now I have an adult taste

01:09:58   in cinema and I know what a real good movie is

01:10:00   and those lists come out and you're like why isn't

01:10:02   these great movies

01:10:04   from the last five years why I can't believe they're not on

01:10:06   the list you know you're you're biased

01:10:08   by recent

01:10:10   stuff it's like you you kind

01:10:12   of when then you you know you get a little bit older

01:10:14   you don't have to be old old but you just

01:10:16   you know you get a little bit older and you realize

01:10:18   you need to

01:10:20   be a little biased against the

01:10:22   newer stuff when you make these lists

01:10:24   you know you gotta you gotta

01:10:26   you gotta let them solidify

01:10:28   in history. Yeah and their story hasn't been told

01:10:30   right like you could argue that

01:10:32   like them take the MacBook Air right that we

01:10:34   we now have that retina MacBook Air and you talked

01:10:36   about how stale the old MacBook Air is but that old

01:10:38   MacBook Air was a hugely influential

01:10:40   computer right but until

01:10:42   the retina MacBook Air came out its story kind

01:10:44   of wasn't over like where does it fit and then they

01:10:46   did a new MacBook Air and you're like oh well maybe the

01:10:48   story of the MacBook Air continues like

01:10:50   it takes a little time some of these

01:10:52   things that I picked you know it's very much like

01:10:54   they have a beginning and an end

01:10:56   and there are Macs that are

01:10:58   boring in their success

01:11:00   that they were obvious and

01:11:02   they sold a lot and they survived

01:11:04   for you know a decade or more

01:11:06   and

01:11:08   but they're not particularly notable to

01:11:10   me because it's just sort of

01:11:12   it's just a success story and

01:11:14   I'm looking for interesting stories

01:11:16   to tell that is part of what I'm going at with my

01:11:18   list but I think that it's also true that

01:11:20   you need to know how the story ends

01:11:22   before and place it in context

01:11:24   and that does take a little bit of time

01:11:26   that I had a couple people say

01:11:28   well I'm sure you'll have the

01:11:30   first Apple Silicon Mac on your list

01:11:32   I hope you left room for it and it's like well no

01:11:34   call me in five years when we know what the

01:11:36   story of Apple Silicon was and I'll pick

01:11:38   the one that tells the story the best

01:11:40   but right now we just don't know like I've

01:11:42   got an iMac Pro you mentioned it right here

01:11:44   is this a one-off?

01:11:46   If it is

01:11:48   it might be notable in the sense that

01:11:50   it represents a product

01:11:52   designed for a future where the Mac was going to

01:11:54   get parked and then they changed their mind

01:11:56   but right

01:11:58   now I'm not comfortable saying that it's notable

01:12:00   because I don't really know what that story is

01:12:02   yet it's coming into focus but

01:12:04   it's going to take a little bit of time so

01:12:06   you know yeah give it a little give it a little

01:12:08   put it in the bin let it age a little

01:12:10   and we'll check back in five or ten years and

01:12:12   have a better idea. Alright let me take a break here

01:12:14   and thank our next sponsor

01:12:16   oh it's my good friends I mean this

01:12:18   sincerely because they keep my website going

01:12:20   at Linode oh do I love

01:12:22   Linode whether you're working on a

01:12:24   personal project or managing enterprise

01:12:26   infrastructure you deserve

01:12:28   simple affordable and accessible

01:12:30   cloud computing solutions that allow you to

01:12:32   take your project to the next level

01:12:34   simplify your cloud infrastructure

01:12:36   with Linodes, Linux,

01:12:38   virtual machines and develop deploy

01:12:40   and scale your modern

01:12:42   applications faster and easier

01:12:44   get started on Linode today

01:12:46   with this is this is fantastic

01:12:48   hear me out a hundred dollars

01:12:50   in free credit for listeners

01:12:52   of the talk show you can find all

01:12:54   the details of that at Linode

01:12:56   dot com slash the talk

01:12:58   show Linode dot

01:13:00   com slash the talk show

01:13:02   hundred dollars in free

01:13:04   credit just because you're a listener of this

01:13:06   show Linode has 11 global

01:13:08   data centers and they provide

01:13:10   200 24/7

01:13:12   365 24 hours a day

01:13:14   seven days a week 365 days a year

01:13:16   human support

01:13:18   with no tiers or handoffs

01:13:20   regardless of your

01:13:22   plan size it's just flat

01:13:24   it is just flat and simple

01:13:26   you need help you're on the nano

01:13:28   plan which is like five bucks a month

01:13:30   call up you get the same

01:13:32   people experts talking

01:13:34   to you helping you with your problem

01:13:36   as if you're on like big enterprise

01:13:38   multi machine

01:13:40   plan

01:13:42   really it's a great company with great support

01:13:44   and they really they're

01:13:46   they're just good people and they really really

01:13:48   know their stuff in addition

01:13:50   to their shared and dedicated

01:13:52   compute instances you can use your

01:13:54   hundred dollars in credit

01:13:56   on their S3 compatible

01:13:58   object storage

01:14:00   managed kubernetes I don't even know

01:14:02   how you pronounce this word kubernetes kubernetes

01:14:04   kubernetes and more

01:14:06   uh whatever if

01:14:08   you know what it is you know how to pronounce it

01:14:10   I've seen it but you can apply your

01:14:12   hundred dollars in credit to it

01:14:14   let's say kubernetes kubernetes

01:14:16   I don't know I just made that up I have no

01:14:18   idea how to say it yeah whatever if you

01:14:20   I don't know how best can

01:14:22   how best can I mispronounce it

01:14:24   kubernetes kubernetes

01:14:26   kubernetes sounds like an island kubernetes is like an

01:14:28   Italian restaurant you go to with your parents

01:14:30   it's exactly it sounds

01:14:32   like a good good red

01:14:34   sauce place anyway go to

01:14:36   linode.com

01:14:38   linode.com/the talkshow

01:14:40   and click on the create free account

01:14:42   button to get started and

01:14:44   it gets you a hundred dollars in credit

01:14:46   it's just a great company great service

01:14:48   I love them

01:14:50   all right before we move on let me

01:14:52   just say this 20 for 20

01:14:54   these are these are these are all

01:14:56   is it true is did you

01:14:58   pick good max is that sort

01:15:00   of the no oh no

01:15:02   they're landmarked right it's 20 most

01:15:04   notable is the word the weasel word I use

01:15:06   because I didn't I thought I thought a

01:15:08   best Mac list would be boring right also

01:15:10   you could argue

01:15:12   that the latest Macs are always going to be

01:15:14   the best because right

01:15:16   or you have to start doing like moneyball stuff where you're like

01:15:18   well if we calculate out which one was the most

01:15:20   effective per dollar in that in that era

01:15:22   or whatever and it gets really weird really fast

01:15:24   so I wanted to be completely subjective

01:15:26   and I and again

01:15:28   kind of want it to be

01:15:30   notable really means

01:15:32   like has an interesting story to tell and

01:15:34   fits is important in the

01:15:36   larger story of the history of the Mac

01:15:38   I guess I would say about it so

01:15:40   some of them are especially lower

01:15:42   down on the list are

01:15:44   spectacular

01:15:46   failures right and and

01:15:48   some of them some of the failures are failures

01:15:50   despite the fact that they have brilliance

01:15:52   in them the Mac portable some of them

01:15:54   yeah yeah some

01:15:56   of them are just failures right like

01:15:58   and the Mac portable is just kind of a failure the

01:16:00   the 20th anniversary Macintosh is weird

01:16:02   and interesting as it is was also a flop

01:16:04   I found out that

01:16:06   as a part I didn't do a lot of reporting but I did

01:16:08   a little bit of reporting for some of these stories

01:16:10   that Gil Amelio

01:16:12   just wanted them to ship it he thought it would be his

01:16:14   legacy as a visionary and it was

01:16:16   so they picked this thing off of

01:16:18   the you know Johnny Ives

01:16:20   concept lineup

01:16:22   and they said let's ship it and then they're like

01:16:24   everybody at Apple was like

01:16:26   but how

01:16:28   are we going to do that and they're like well go to Bose

01:16:30   and and get a attach

01:16:32   a speaker to it and at least it'll sound good

01:16:34   and stuff like that literally what

01:16:36   happened and then I found out in

01:16:38   the podcast portion of this

01:16:40   from my old boss Rick LePage

01:16:42   who worked at Mac week at the time

01:16:44   that apparently Gil

01:16:46   Amelio had it in his severance

01:16:48   agreement that one of the things

01:16:50   he would get beyond his golden parachute was

01:16:52   a 20th anniversary

01:16:54   Mac of his own so he even then he was like

01:16:56   this shall be my legacy and that's

01:16:58   just a bad product that should never have been shipped

01:17:00   as a product I'm glad it escaped because it's so fun

01:17:02   but it should never have been a product

01:17:04   and that's on the list because I feel

01:17:06   like it says things about the Amelio

01:17:08   era and the you know right

01:17:10   when Steve Jobs came back and sort of like

01:17:12   the brilliance of Apple's internal design

01:17:14   lab but the fact that products

01:17:16   should not escape from it

01:17:18   and so it's on the list because it's

01:17:20   super notable like how can you tell the story

01:17:22   of the Mac and not mention get a load of this

01:17:24   thing that they did for the 20th anniversary

01:17:26   of Apple not the Mac and released

01:17:28   it on the basically the 21st anniversary

01:17:30   of Apple so they didn't even get that right

01:17:32   I mean how can I not tell that story

01:17:34   One of the little things that was so wrong about

01:17:36   it is that

01:17:38   famously to Mac fans because this was

01:17:40   the time you know the show

01:17:42   aired in a time when the Mac

01:17:44   was sort of beleaguered

01:17:46   as we like to say

01:17:48   Jerry Seinfeld always had a Mac

01:17:50   on his desk in the back of his

01:17:52   living room a section

01:17:54   of the set that never really featured into the plot

01:17:56   but you know it was just sort of set dressing

01:17:58   and

01:18:00   at one point he had a 20th anniversary

01:18:02   Mac which was so

01:18:04   incongruous because

01:18:06   the Macs that he had there

01:18:08   before were like yeah of course

01:18:10   the Jerry Seinfeld character

01:18:12   in the show Seinfeld of course he would have

01:18:14   a Mac because he likes nice

01:18:16   things and he's fussy and the

01:18:18   Mac is even in the 90s

01:18:20   when the Mac maybe wasn't doing

01:18:22   so well overall in the market

01:18:24   Jerry Seinfeld would be a Mac user like we

01:18:26   everybody who was a Mac user at the time

01:18:28   knows that Seinfeld had a

01:18:30   Mac on the show

01:18:32   but he would never have a 20th

01:18:34   anniversary Mac

01:18:36   A. The character Jerry Seinfeld was not

01:18:38   a gazillionaire

01:18:40   but even the real life Jerry Seinfeld

01:18:42   who was the star

01:18:44   the 20 million dollar

01:18:46   year star of

01:18:48   the biggest show on network television

01:18:50   would know

01:18:52   no this is not this is

01:18:54   I don't know what this is this is

01:18:56   ridiculous right it was so

01:18:58   incongruous but Apple could get rid

01:19:00   of them fast enough and so they unloaded them all

01:19:02   on like movies and TV shows and the set

01:19:04   dresser obviously thought that this was really

01:19:06   interesting it looked cool it looked like

01:19:08   it was from the future but the

01:19:10   Jerry the Seinfeld show was not

01:19:12   sci-fi it was

01:19:14   all right how about this

01:19:16   before we move on how about pick

01:19:18   a not I'm gonna put you on the spot

01:19:20   pick a not notable Mac

01:19:22   pick a Mac that was never

01:19:24   going to make 20 for 20

01:19:26   I have

01:19:28   okay I'm gonna give you mine

01:19:30   all right

01:19:32   the iMac g5

01:19:34   because

01:19:36   if you think about it

01:19:38   the iMac

01:19:40   g4

01:19:42   with the like the flower pedal

01:19:44   design and all of that and

01:19:46   that was my pick this week right number

01:19:48   nine is

01:19:50   a brilliant piece of design

01:19:52   it belongs in a museum

01:19:54   it I think it is in a museum

01:19:56   I have one

01:19:58   in my office here I love it it's just

01:20:00   gorgeous and

01:20:02   when they announced it Apple was like

01:20:04   LCDs are going to transform computers

01:20:06   and this is going to be the next

01:20:08   10 years of desktop design is this thing

01:20:10   where it floats on an arm

01:20:12   and in two years it was dead

01:20:14   and its replacement was the iMac g5

01:20:16   which was everything that Steve

01:20:18   Jobs in the launch of the iMac g4

01:20:20   said here's what we're not going to do

01:20:22   we're not just going to stick a computer on the back of it

01:20:24   because that would be what good would that be

01:20:26   we want it to be thin and light and then literally

01:20:28   that's what they did and the reason

01:20:30   it wouldn't make my list is because

01:20:32   I think it's important in fact

01:20:34   it really is still

01:20:36   what the iMac is today

01:20:38   like literally that he said

01:20:40   set up for the next decade with the g4 and

01:20:42   it turned out that iMac g5 set them

01:20:44   up for the next decade and a half

01:20:46   and counting

01:20:48   but it's super boring

01:20:50   and it's

01:20:52   successful but like what's the

01:20:54   story the story is really the failure

01:20:56   of the beautiful Mac

01:20:58   not the success of the boring Mac

01:21:00   and they didn't it's like

01:21:02   Apple giving up and realizing they have to sort of

01:21:04   go back to reality and make

01:21:06   something that's more boring but more practical

01:21:08   and like that's not a fun story to tell

01:21:10   so that's my one of

01:21:12   my suggestions of something that didn't

01:21:14   make the list even though I think it's actually

01:21:16   very interesting and I could tell a story about it

01:21:18   because what's the story in the end

01:21:20   it's sort of like Apple didn't want to build it but they

01:21:22   had to and now we still have them

01:21:24   that's it. Here's my pick

01:21:26   my pick is 1993's

01:21:28   Macintosh Color Classic

01:21:30   that's a good one

01:21:34   that's a good one which is

01:21:36   I think for a lot of people even if

01:21:38   you were around at the time you're

01:21:40   like wait did was that a real thing?

01:21:42   and it was

01:21:44   it was a real thing

01:21:46   and when I got to put this in the show notes

01:21:48   it got everything

01:21:50   wrong

01:21:52   it got everything wrong

01:21:54   because they picked the worst aspects

01:21:56   this is a machine that came out

01:21:58   in 1993

01:22:00   you think oh it was basically

01:22:02   the classic Mac form factor

01:22:04   you know that reached a pinnacle with the

01:22:06   SE30 which came out in 1989

01:22:08   but that was

01:22:12   the end of the era and those

01:22:14   black and white screens had their

01:22:16   advantages they really were sharp

01:22:18   they were sharp in a way that color

01:22:20   CRTs weren't

01:22:22   and there was just no reason to have a

01:22:26   9 inch 512 pixel wide

01:22:28   color display there was just

01:22:30   no reason nobody wanted a

01:22:32   small display you know like

01:22:34   and you know that was some sales guy

01:22:36   at Apple in the channel who was like

01:22:38   look we're getting killed on color

01:22:40   just the color in it. People loved

01:22:42   the classic Mac form factor

01:22:44   for many reasons people have fond

01:22:46   memories of it but they loved it

01:22:48   despite the fact that it had a 9 inch

01:22:50   512 pixel wide

01:22:52   512 by 384 display

01:22:54   like it was like that was the

01:22:56   the pressing the limits of a

01:22:58   bitmap display technology for the 80s

01:23:00   in the consumer level

01:23:02   pricing which in the 80s

01:23:04   for you know it was like thousands of dollars

01:23:06   nope in 1993 nobody

01:23:08   wanted this and then they so they

01:23:10   they vaguely made it look

01:23:12   like a Mac but they used the modern

01:23:14   beige colors and

01:23:16   sort of perform a styling

01:23:18   and dots and it's like I'm looking at a picture

01:23:20   of it right now and it's so much uglier

01:23:22   than I remember and

01:23:24   it is it is big and

01:23:26   weird and

01:23:28   and unpleasant I don't like the classic

01:23:30   line at all and I know that there are a lot of people

01:23:32   of a certain age where that's the first Mac that they got

01:23:34   because it was in some ways the most

01:23:36   affordable Mac was the original

01:23:38   classic and then the classic 2 which was

01:23:40   basically the classic was the SE and the classic

01:23:42   2 was the SE 30 but

01:23:44   I hate those

01:23:46   because first off they were old it really

01:23:48   is just repackaging old tech

01:23:50   and they took that really nice

01:23:52   it's called the Snow White design

01:23:54   language there are a couple episodes that touch on it in the

01:23:56   20 Mac series and they replaced it

01:23:58   with what I view is like

01:24:00   this weird

01:24:02   simulacrum of what the original

01:24:04   Mac looked like but like done from memory

01:24:06   of like what popular memory

01:24:08   of what the Mac looks like but it doesn't

01:24:10   actually look like it so they're weird

01:24:12   and kind of featureless and drab

01:24:14   and I hate them

01:24:16   so it's a great and the color classic

01:24:18   then distorts it beyond

01:24:20   even recognition now it's just

01:24:22   a very strange big

01:24:24   blob

01:24:26   of an all in one it's not

01:24:28   good all the limitations of the

01:24:30   classic Macs that people loved

01:24:32   and none of the charm

01:24:34   it was yeah it was bizarre

01:24:36   which could it be notable I guess

01:24:38   it could but yeah I'm with you where I feel like

01:24:40   it's just sort of a sad footnote in

01:24:42   in history and if your first Mac was a

01:24:44   color classic I'm sorry nostalgia

01:24:46   is a powerful thing here it's not a

01:24:48   computer that I'm nostalgic for it all yeah and

01:24:50   the most and again my memory

01:24:52   was if you had asked me before I

01:24:54   I looked it up here

01:24:56   what year did it come out I would have thought I'm not

01:24:58   sure but I would guess around 1993

01:25:00   and it's not because I

01:25:02   remember it came out in 1993

01:25:04   I'm like that 1993

01:25:06   seems like when Apple's leadership

01:25:08   would think that's something we should ship

01:25:10   right and it was it

01:25:12   it was a dead canary in the

01:25:14   coal mine of hey we're

01:25:16   going the wrong way this company is going

01:25:18   the wrong way here I think

01:25:20   there's gas at the mine we should

01:25:22   we should turn around anyway

01:25:24   we have new stuff to talk about

01:25:26   okay sure

01:25:28   iPad Air

01:25:30   and you reviewed it I reviewed it

01:25:32   I think this is a very

01:25:34   interesting device

01:25:36   I loved your lead for it

01:25:38   which was basically that

01:25:40   Apple is so confident in where the

01:25:42   iPad is and where the iPad Pro is

01:25:44   that they just took everything great about

01:25:46   it except for Face ID

01:25:48   and said okay now this is

01:25:50   the iPad Air this is like the mainstream

01:25:52   iPad for people

01:25:54   it's a great

01:25:56   product I'm not quite sure

01:25:58   where it is right

01:26:00   now price wise

01:26:02   but going forward I

01:26:04   think this is great for the lineup

01:26:06   yeah

01:26:08   it's a weird product because

01:26:10   it's the case where there's definitely

01:26:12   another shoe to drop it is

01:26:14   so close and if you equalize

01:26:16   the storage

01:26:18   it's only like $150 cheaper

01:26:20   at the higher storage point than the

01:26:22   iPad Pro that's 11 inches that uses

01:26:24   the same accessories and that's

01:26:26   too close it's too close

01:26:28   and it's taken too many features from the iPad

01:26:30   Pros for there not to be

01:26:32   an iPad Pro update coming

01:26:34   that is going to have a bunch of new features

01:26:36   that separate these two products and

01:26:38   I realized as I was writing this review

01:26:40   probably also raising the price of the iPad Pro

01:26:42   yes

01:26:44   that's probably happening too I don't think we're going to see

01:26:46   a $799 base model iPad

01:26:48   Pro it will probably go up

01:26:50   and that will be again part of the differentiator

01:26:52   but what Apple will be able to say is

01:26:54   yes but starting at $599

01:26:56   we have the iPad Air

01:26:58   which has at this point

01:27:00   almost all the features that

01:27:02   were introduced in 2018 in the iPad Pro

01:27:04   it doesn't have face ID

01:27:06   which obviously that TrueDepth sensor

01:27:08   costs and it was a way for them to

01:27:10   save some money although they did build that

01:27:12   new nifty touch ID sensor

01:27:14   but it's got Apple Pencil 2

01:27:16   it supports the Magic Keyboard which means that

01:27:18   technically Apple's

01:27:20   cheapest laptop now you could argue

01:27:22   is the iPad Air with the Magic Keyboard

01:27:24   $899, $898

01:27:26   but it's great

01:27:28   like the product is great

01:27:30   and the price especially

01:27:32   the entry price if you're storing stuff in the cloud

01:27:34   and 64 gigs is fine

01:27:36   like you get access to

01:27:38   all of this really nice tech for

01:27:40   a much lower price than the iPad

01:27:42   Pro ever provided. The

01:27:44   question is but what

01:27:46   about the iPad Pro? And the answer

01:27:48   is 2021

01:27:50   I think. Clearly

01:27:52   the next step is for them

01:27:54   to spread the iPads back out by

01:27:56   having a brand new Pro that

01:27:58   is even more advanced

01:28:00   and pushes away from the

01:28:02   iPad Air but that product doesn't

01:28:04   exist so in the meantime

01:28:06   the Air and the 11 inch Pro are really

01:28:08   close together. Yeah and I think

01:28:10   that it'll make a lot more sense like you said

01:28:12   to just another shoe to drop which is the next

01:28:14   generation iPad Pro

01:28:16   I do think price is going

01:28:18   up and you know

01:28:20   Never bet against Apple raising prices

01:28:22   John. Never. Always round

01:28:24   up, always add on a little

01:28:26   something. You're never gonna go

01:28:28   broke betting that Apple raises prices

01:28:30   sometimes they don't but like

01:28:32   if they can they will

01:28:34   Are they gonna lower the prices significantly

01:28:36   notably by 50 bucks

01:28:38   25 bucks if they take the power adapters

01:28:40   out of the iPhone box? No

01:28:42   Probably not

01:28:44   And you can't look at the iPad Air and say

01:28:46   well maybe they'll lower the price of the base model

01:28:48   iPad Pro. No

01:28:50   No no no no

01:28:52   There's an outside shot that they'll keep it the same

01:28:54   but probably they'll raise it

01:28:56   and maybe they won't have an

01:28:58   11 inch maybe it'll be larger that

01:29:00   they'll start out or something but like clearly

01:29:02   there's another story going on here because you can't have

01:29:04   this high end Pro

01:29:06   iPad but the only

01:29:08   differences are like ProMotion

01:29:10   and

01:29:12   Face ID. Like

01:29:14   it's not, I feel like it's not enough and that's

01:29:16   the confidence part that you mentioned that

01:29:18   I put in my story is this is a product

01:29:20   that the iPad Air is a product that's

01:29:22   released by a company that has such

01:29:24   confidence in how they're rolling in terms

01:29:26   of bringing out new iPad features

01:29:28   that they can release this now because they know they're

01:29:30   gonna beat it with a new Pro model that's gonna

01:29:32   clearly differentiate and so they

01:29:34   can afford to pull those features down

01:29:36   and pull the Apple Pencil 2

01:29:38   down into this product

01:29:40   One of the interesting things

01:29:42   to me, more interesting

01:29:44   I'm glad I noted it. I almost didn't

01:29:46   and I thought, it's so weird

01:29:48   I gotta note it but to

01:29:50   upgrade for the same

01:29:52   storage on iPad

01:29:54   it's usually a very consistent price

01:29:56   to go from a Wi-Fi only model

01:29:58   to cellular and I thought it

01:30:00   jumped out at me that with this new

01:30:02   iPad Air, whatever you want to get

01:30:04   let's say it's 100 or I guess there's

01:30:06   no 128, 256

01:30:08   256 gigabytes, it costs 130

01:30:10   bucks to get the same thing with cellular

01:30:12   with the iPad Air

01:30:14   it's 150 bucks to upgrade

01:30:16   to get the same

01:30:18   storage but with cellular networking

01:30:20   and that seemed weird to me

01:30:22   and a couple people pointed out

01:30:24   that the way that, I don't know

01:30:26   if it's a Qualcomm thing specifically

01:30:28   I don't know what it is but there's

01:30:30   licenses for cellular networking

01:30:32   where the license cost

01:30:34   is related to the

01:30:36   price of the product

01:30:38   it's like a percentage of the price of the product

01:30:40   and I'm not quite sure

01:30:42   I can't vouch

01:30:44   and say that's why

01:30:46   and I'm not quite sure

01:30:48   also if that's true

01:30:50   how it's

01:30:52   why you don't have to pay a higher premium

01:30:54   for a one terabyte

01:30:56   13 inch

01:30:58   iPad Pro

01:31:00   that costs like

01:31:02   $1300

01:31:04   as opposed to a $900

01:31:06   smaller iPad Pro

01:31:08   that's a significant difference

01:31:10   maybe they just average it, maybe it's like

01:31:12   okay it's the average price of an iPad Pro

01:31:14   is blank

01:31:16   and therefore the licensing fee for cellular

01:31:18   is here

01:31:20   and because it's higher they have to charge more

01:31:22   for the iPad Pro than the iPad Air

01:31:24   but the interesting

01:31:26   thing about this theory that it's related

01:31:28   to the average price is it makes

01:31:30   me wonder if that's

01:31:32   a big part of the answer to

01:31:34   why we haven't seen cellular

01:31:36   built in to Macs

01:31:38   yep, could be

01:31:40   because that could be, it's a huge hit

01:31:42   right? That's a question that

01:31:44   we've been asking, that's one

01:31:46   we really have been asking for a very

01:31:48   long time, I would say ever

01:31:50   since the iPad

01:31:52   came out with cellular

01:31:54   is this is great

01:31:56   it is great to have a device like this

01:31:58   with cellular networking built in, I love it

01:32:00   for travel

01:32:02   I use it in the park

01:32:04   where there is no WiFi

01:32:06   I use it in hotels where I

01:32:08   would rather not use the WiFi

01:32:10   boy

01:32:12   I would like to do this with my Mac

01:32:14   and it, to me personally

01:32:16   I mean number one for 2020

01:32:18   I haven't left my house

01:32:20   much so

01:32:22   hasn't been that much of an issue but

01:32:24   in recent years tethering

01:32:26   to iPhones has been

01:32:28   so good and so easy

01:32:30   to do from the Mac

01:32:32   that I don't even know if I would buy

01:32:34   a cellular equipped MacBook Pro

01:32:36   I probably wouldn't

01:32:38   I know that that's one of the things

01:32:40   people are wondering if Apple's been holding

01:32:42   for Apple Silicon

01:32:44   models, you know, whether it's just

01:32:46   easier for them to do it based on the same

01:32:48   architecture that they've been building

01:32:50   iPads on and iPhones which

01:32:52   obviously have cellular or if it's just

01:32:54   like, this is a thing

01:32:56   we're going to wait so that we can make this

01:32:58   big splash with

01:33:00   it's not just Apple Silicon which

01:33:02   doesn't really mean much to non-technical

01:33:04   people but cellular does

01:33:06   they understand, hey, this is something you can

01:33:08   use in the park

01:33:10   I'm assuming that it's going to happen when they have their

01:33:12   own cellular modems, right? Because they bought Intel's

01:33:14   cellular business and right now

01:33:16   they're shipping Qualcomm modems in the

01:33:18   5G phones

01:33:20   but once they have their own

01:33:22   that's the moment where I think

01:33:24   that they would put it in the Mac

01:33:26   because then it's their own tech, they're not

01:33:28   paying a licensing fee to include

01:33:30   that and then turn it on

01:33:32   when you, you know

01:33:34   they'll obviously do something to

01:33:36   upcharge people for it

01:33:38   but they won't have to pay that to Qualcomm

01:33:40   or Intel or anybody, it'll be their

01:33:42   money. Well, but there might be, I think there's patents

01:33:44   though that are licensed by a cost so

01:33:46   there might still have to. Yeah, probably some patents

01:33:48   Yeah, I mean, there's something

01:33:50   but I think it's more plausible

01:33:52   at least then

01:33:54   but yeah, I'm now an

01:33:56   iPad, cellular iPad believer

01:33:58   and so I get it now where I'm like

01:34:00   yeah, I could see why you'd want that in a laptop just because

01:34:02   then you don't have to worry about

01:34:04   for an extra whatever, $10 a month to add it to your

01:34:06   existing cellular plan

01:34:08   you don't, I was in a

01:34:10   we were taking my daughter up to

01:34:12   college and I'm sitting in a car

01:34:14   looking at my iPhone and I realized, oh, I could just get

01:34:16   my iPad out. Yeah.

01:34:18   Because I'm just sitting in a passenger

01:34:20   seat and it

01:34:22   doesn't, they're both cellular devices so

01:34:24   I don't, and it's just habit

01:34:26   of that I don't usually have my iPad

01:34:28   with me but it's such a nice thing to be like

01:34:30   oh, you know, anywhere I am my iPad

01:34:32   is on the internet so I would love to have that

01:34:34   on a laptop eventually. Yeah

01:34:36   and I, so I still

01:34:38   I believe it's coming

01:34:40   but to me the interesting

01:34:42   thing to file away for future reference is

01:34:44   you know, will it be like

01:34:46   $130 upgrade for

01:34:48   MacBook Airs or whatever they

01:34:50   call it if they stick with the names, who knows if they

01:34:52   even, if that's how big a change Apple Silicon's

01:34:54   going to bring but the equivalent of MacBook Airs

01:34:56   be cheaper to get a cellular

01:34:58   model than MacBook Pros

01:35:00   and then to me that would say

01:35:02   hey, part of this might have been just licensing

01:35:04   costs but we shall

01:35:06   see.

01:35:08   Otherwise the other big notable thing

01:35:10   about the iPad Air, the new one, is

01:35:12   the touch ID sensor on

01:35:14   the power button which is new

01:35:16   and you know

01:35:18   I think everybody who said they were hoping

01:35:20   for it on the iPhones knew

01:35:22   that that was just you know

01:35:24   you know it's like wishing that you hit

01:35:26   the lottery. It wasn't going to happen

01:35:28   this year. Just we

01:35:30   I think it's an interesting data point in

01:35:32   that we talk about Apple spending years

01:35:34   on these things and they're working a year or two

01:35:36   ahead but like

01:35:38   with COVID we got, it's an

01:35:40   interesting data point because we know that they have this

01:35:42   technology and they knew at some point

01:35:44   that everybody was wearing masks.

01:35:46   And so we could draw a line there and say okay

01:35:48   this appears to be beyond

01:35:50   Apple's capability to change

01:35:52   because I think if in

01:35:54   May

01:35:56   they could have swapped in the iPad Air, a version

01:35:58   of the iPad Air technology into the iPhone

01:36:00   they would have. I really do

01:36:02   think that if they

01:36:04   could have they would have

01:36:06   because they have the technology

01:36:08   and they could have prioritized it because they

01:36:10   know that Face ID is

01:36:12   suddenly less valuable than it used to be.

01:36:14   But

01:36:16   you know and I assume that they at least

01:36:18   had a conversation about it but that tells us

01:36:20   something right? It tells us that

01:36:22   whatever the window is to do a last

01:36:24   minute change to add or change

01:36:26   something not to remove necessarily but

01:36:28   to change something on the iPhone

01:36:30   COVID-19

01:36:32   clearly being an issue was

01:36:34   out of the window. It took them longer

01:36:36   than that. Well and I think another

01:36:38   interesting way to think about it is think about the

01:36:40   iPhone event from a couple weeks

01:36:42   ago. Do you recall them even

01:36:44   mentioning Face ID?

01:36:46   I don't think they did and if they

01:36:48   did it was you know maybe like a

01:36:50   bullet point on a slide

01:36:52   somewhere. I mean they didn't talk like hey it's

01:36:54   faster than ever who knows they just

01:36:56   don't talk about it because it's awkward

01:36:58   at this point to ship

01:37:00   to ship devices whose login method

01:37:02   is this thing that doesn't work

01:37:04   when you're outside because of

01:37:06   a thing that they don't really want to talk

01:37:08   about because it's unpleasant right? The whole

01:37:10   you know pandemic is not exactly

01:37:12   a pleasant term and it's

01:37:14   not a pleasant situation

01:37:16   and just from a product

01:37:18   marketing standpoint it's just not a great

01:37:20   time to launch face driven

01:37:22   authentication. It really is bad

01:37:24   timing historically you know

01:37:26   that you know because this pandemic

01:37:28   could have hit at any time you know it could have hit

01:37:30   four years ago could have hit ten years

01:37:32   ago could hit ten years from now

01:37:34   it just happened

01:37:36   to hit you know right when

01:37:38   Face ID was new. I

01:37:40   know I remember getting

01:37:42   emails from

01:37:44   daring fireball readers and probably

01:37:46   listeners of the show.

01:37:48   A couple of them who are medical professionals

01:37:50   who wear masks because

01:37:52   they you know and they're unrelated

01:37:54   to COVID you know this is starting from the

01:37:56   iPhone 10 that you know that this

01:37:58   was a pain for them this was annoying

01:38:00   because they wear masks

01:38:02   and you know they have to if they're like

01:38:04   surgeons and stuff like that like

01:38:06   you might think like well why are you touching your

01:38:08   phone at all if you're you know scrubbed up or

01:38:10   whatever but it

01:38:12   it's not like they're

01:38:14   touching their phone while they're doing

01:38:16   surgery right? I mean they're you know

01:38:18   they're surgeons they're professional

01:38:20   but they they don't want to take

01:38:22   their mask off they can't in some cases

01:38:24   then this is a real thing

01:38:26   and Touch ID worked

01:38:28   and Face ID doesn't and there are doctors

01:38:30   who regretted upgrading to Face ID

01:38:32   phones before this even happened

01:38:34   so this is something Apple knew about

01:38:36   I'm sure Apple is aware that there are people

01:38:38   who for whom Face ID didn't work

01:38:40   and I also heard from people who

01:38:42   you know you know my

01:38:44   readership is is largely

01:38:46   and certainly the the feedback I get

01:38:48   is all in English because it's the only language I

01:38:50   can read but you know people who go to

01:38:52   Asia and wear where face mask

01:38:54   wearing and flu see cold and flu season

01:38:56   is very common and it's just considered a

01:38:58   courtesy who knows how long it's you know

01:39:00   might this might be a lasting change now

01:39:02   throughout the world that you know when you have

01:39:04   a cold you'll you'll politely wear a face

01:39:06   mask to keep from spreading germs to other

01:39:08   people now imagine

01:39:10   now that we've broken this taboo

01:39:12   um undo it

01:39:14   was and you know let's face it it was weird at

01:39:16   first it's still weird it you know but it was

01:39:18   really weird at first uh

01:39:20   it you know it

01:39:22   it they knew about it but now

01:39:24   that it's hit home you know

01:39:26   it's and everybody's dealing with

01:39:28   it I'm sure if they were thinking

01:39:30   yeah something you know where we integrate

01:39:32   touch ideas a secondary

01:39:34   biometric authentication sure

01:39:36   we could look at that has to be a higher

01:39:38   priority you know

01:39:40   yeah and also I I'm

01:39:42   curious what investigation they've done in terms of

01:39:44   training the existing face ID

01:39:46   um sensor staff to

01:39:48   train on an like an

01:39:50   alternate method of recognition

01:39:52   that might not be as quite

01:39:54   as accurate or as secure but would

01:39:56   be better than than nothing

01:39:58   if you so you could like optionally turn

01:40:00   on also recognize me

01:40:02   with a face covering or something like that

01:40:04   I don't know whether they have

01:40:06   investigated that and decided that it's just not possible

01:40:08   or whether that's

01:40:10   something that they are actively investigating

01:40:12   because that would be the other way to go right is maybe we

01:40:14   don't need touch ID maybe what we need is

01:40:16   face ID that works above the

01:40:18   mask is there enough data above

01:40:20   the mask for us to make a guess

01:40:22   about whether this is the person or not maybe

01:40:24   the answer is no but I think that's

01:40:26   I would imagine that all these conversations

01:40:28   have happened at Apple because they they do

01:40:30   want their product to be useful to their customers

01:40:32   and it was built with some assumptions

01:40:34   that are probably no longer true yeah

01:40:36   and they you know and they're definitely living it

01:40:38   themselves you know which helps I mean

01:40:40   they're sure and I mean that in a non

01:40:42   pejorative sense you know like I will

01:40:44   pejoratively hold it against them that they

01:40:46   seemingly design every product

01:40:48   they make without the knowledge that

01:40:50   some places it rains

01:40:52   I just posted a screenshot

01:40:54   yesterday of the rain

01:40:56   complication if it's 100% chance of rain

01:40:58   that it doesn't fit

01:41:00   yeah one zero dot dot dot yeah

01:41:02   it's like yeah

01:41:04   and that's the story about how Apple mail

01:41:06   has always been bad on on slow connections

01:41:08   right right slow internet connections but

01:41:10   until they started doing Wi-Fi on airplanes

01:41:12   nobody at Apple ever noticed right

01:41:14   and then you know all of a sudden they're

01:41:16   like yeah we gotta fix this and we're like yeah we've been telling you

01:41:18   you know

01:41:20   so

01:41:22   I you know I I'm sure they're looking

01:41:24   at it I don't know if they'll be able to fix it by now I don't

01:41:26   know what the answer is you know and and

01:41:28   in theory it's clearly possible

01:41:30   eventually for Face ID

01:41:32   to get good enough to recognize this

01:41:34   with a mask because I know that if

01:41:36   I ran into you on the street I would know

01:41:38   hey that's Jason you know right

01:41:40   if you were wearing a mask I know you well

01:41:42   enough and humans my god we

01:41:44   are so good at recognizing faces

01:41:46   I mean but that's the gold

01:41:48   standard right I mean the gold standard

01:41:50   is the human brain and

01:41:52   eye system at recognizing

01:41:54   people we know right we're so

01:41:56   good at matching we're we're that's what we're

01:41:58   best at is pattern right yeah

01:42:00   and you know everybody knows it's it's a

01:42:02   common thing where you like recognize

01:42:04   somebody but you

01:42:06   know you know them because of their face you

01:42:08   have no idea what their name is

01:42:10   oh my god what's that what's that what's that

01:42:12   woman's name oh or you might know

01:42:14   like oh my god that's that one kid's parent from

01:42:16   school oh I don't even remember the kid's name

01:42:18   but I know I know them you know

01:42:20   it and you're like I gotta go the other way

01:42:22   because I I don't wanna you know

01:42:24   embarrass myself by not remembering who

01:42:26   they are your brain certainly

01:42:28   remembers their face so if we can

01:42:30   do it computers can do it but whether that's

01:42:32   like a oh we can fix

01:42:34   the existing tech or

01:42:36   no we need the whole thing like to

01:42:38   get this we need the whole face and we are

01:42:40   nowhere near doing it just from

01:42:42   what's exposed you know between

01:42:44   like somebody wearing a hoodie

01:42:46   with a face mask forget it you know I

01:42:48   don't know

01:42:50   yeah and then there are I mean if they're

01:42:52   writing things on a whiteboard you

01:42:54   you throw things in there like could I do it based on

01:42:56   location could I have a different authentication that's

01:42:58   available in certain circumstances could I set

01:43:00   up a geo fence that when I go to the

01:43:02   store when I'm in the supermarket please

01:43:04   let me just put in a code then but

01:43:06   other the rest of the time right

01:43:08   I wanna use face ID and I don't wanna toggle

01:43:10   that setting or you know there are things

01:43:12   that are that are kinda like outliers

01:43:14   they may also be talking about yeah could we change

01:43:16   the face ID sensor stack so that

01:43:18   it's the camera in there is like an infrared

01:43:20   camera and then we can map to infrared underneath

01:43:22   we can see underneath the mask I don't

01:43:24   know this is why those

01:43:26   people get paid a lot of money to think about this all

01:43:28   day but like it's clearly something that they've

01:43:30   gotta be grappling with and and I

01:43:32   don't think this is going away your point I think you

01:43:34   gotta make a bet that we know that

01:43:36   in certain cultures mask wearing is

01:43:38   already an issue in certain occupations it's an

01:43:40   issue and I would probably make

01:43:42   the bet that the prevalence of mask wearing

01:43:44   in society for the next 10 years

01:43:46   is gonna be pretty

01:43:48   high even if it's not what it is

01:43:50   right now I think it's gonna stay

01:43:52   around and that Apple

01:43:54   needs to plan for that cause they built a technology

01:43:56   that doesn't work with it. Yeah and you

01:43:58   know humans we're just weird

01:44:00   we're weird we're not computers we're

01:44:02   so we're not Spock we are not

01:44:04   logical and you know

01:44:06   now that we've broken the seal on this I mean

01:44:08   these sort of

01:44:10   coronavirus type things

01:44:12   we've had outbreaks there were like four of

01:44:14   them during the Obama administration and

01:44:16   not to get into the which administration

01:44:18   handled which thing I mean this is obviously worse

01:44:20   and no matter what

01:44:22   the US adminis you know all every government

01:44:24   every every country around the world

01:44:26   has had a worse outbreak of

01:44:28   this way worse than any of these other things

01:44:30   so this one was different

01:44:32   but I think the

01:44:34   fact that we know we just know

01:44:36   that even we get this one

01:44:38   under control three with four

01:44:40   years from now there's going to be another one and

01:44:42   hopefully it'll be like you know

01:44:44   H1N1 was the swine flu

01:44:46   and it just won't be that big a deal

01:44:48   but when that happens

01:44:50   I think we're all gonna mask up on airplanes

01:44:52   and stuff like that right like even when

01:44:54   it's not a pandemic that we're shutting

01:44:56   down and spreading I think when it's

01:44:58   like hey there's a new

01:45:00   virus spreading out of Asia

01:45:02   and it's you know this could

01:45:04   be bad airlines

01:45:06   will just say yeah we're gonna you know we're gonna

01:45:08   say masks on for flights

01:45:10   you know even yeah and that

01:45:12   or if there's a really bad flu outbreak

01:45:14   right just say everybody has the wherewithal

01:45:16   now to be like oh I have masks I can

01:45:18   I can wear a mask I know how to do that this is how

01:45:20   you know after

01:45:22   a hundred years of having a worldwide pandemic

01:45:24   everybody forgets but we

01:45:26   haven't been through it now

01:45:28   I was talking about this

01:45:30   with my wife because she works at a library

01:45:32   and like when the pandemic happened they're like well what do we do

01:45:34   and then they shut down and then they

01:45:36   sort of slowly figured it out but the difference

01:45:38   is now they know like

01:45:40   what to do and I think

01:45:42   every business has sort of done that so if something

01:45:44   happens again you don't have to like look around

01:45:46   and be like oh no what do we do they're like

01:45:48   execute plan A right

01:45:50   like we already did this we know

01:45:52   what we need to do and

01:45:54   whether that's mask wearing or it's like how

01:45:56   we're going to go to take out only for a

01:45:58   month and then we'll come back like we know

01:46:00   all of us have had to figure that

01:46:02   out and now the society has figured it

01:46:04   out so I agree with you

01:46:06   I think that you're going to find that

01:46:08   certain cultures and certain societies

01:46:10   are going to have a much more

01:46:12   easy way to flip a switch to say oh something

01:46:14   is spreading let's put

01:46:16   a cap on it by doing these five

01:46:18   things for public health including

01:46:20   more people wearing masks and

01:46:22   yeah so the net result may be that like flu

01:46:24   seasons aren't as bad and other

01:46:26   things that are spreading don't spread as

01:46:28   as readily because we've all kind of learned

01:46:30   for now our lesson

01:46:32   about how to handle this one

01:46:34   Yeah I mean honestly I think like

01:46:36   30-40 years ago if you went back and just

01:46:38   said hey and by the way every year they're just

01:46:40   kind of good advice like going to

01:46:42   the dentist once a year you should get a

01:46:44   flu shot and people would be like what the hell

01:46:46   are you talking about flu shot? You know

01:46:48   you just learn to adapt to little things

01:46:50   and I think I just really

01:46:52   really feel I'm not certain

01:46:54   but I just feel like it's very

01:46:56   likely that occasional

01:46:58   bits of mask wearing

01:47:00   are going to be common henceforth

01:47:02   even without pandemics

01:47:04   just you know hey there's a thing

01:47:06   going around everybody should wear a mask

01:47:08   Yeah.

01:47:10   So we'll see how that works out.

01:47:12   Anything else on the iPad Air before

01:47:14   we move on? Nope.

01:47:16   Alright well let me take this opportunity

01:47:18   to thank our third and final

01:47:20   sponsor of this episode our good friends

01:47:22   at Squarespace

01:47:24   Hey Squarespace

01:47:26   is the all-in-one platform

01:47:28   where you can build a new

01:47:30   website take an existing

01:47:32   website and update it anything you need to do

01:47:34   on the web you can do it at

01:47:36   Squarespace and it literally is soup

01:47:38   to nuts domain name registration

01:47:40   templates templates

01:47:42   that start and cover all sorts

01:47:44   the whole gamut of screen sizes from phones

01:47:46   to desktops

01:47:48   online store a portfolio

01:47:50   something where you want to show off

01:47:52   a gallery of photos and work

01:47:54   and stuff like that or a CMS

01:47:56   type thing where you want to host a blog

01:47:58   or you want to host a podcast you can

01:48:00   do it all at Squarespace

01:48:02   everything is right there

01:48:04   great analytics great technical

01:48:06   support if and when you need it

01:48:08   everything you need right there at Squarespace

01:48:10   and I always emphasize this

01:48:12   such a great thing it's great for if

01:48:14   you're technically minded and you know

01:48:16   HTML CSS JavaScript and you know

01:48:18   web hosting and you know stuff like that

01:48:20   it's also great if

01:48:22   because you know stuff like that you're

01:48:24   the person people who don't know it

01:48:26   come to when they need a website

01:48:28   send them to Squarespace it is the best thing

01:48:30   to do and it's not just like oh you're

01:48:32   shoving them off on a thing so that

01:48:34   are out of your hair it's actually the best thing

01:48:36   for them because now they can take control of it

01:48:38   and do it themselves and empower them

01:48:40   with this thing that they can totally understand

01:48:42   it is a great service for non-technical

01:48:44   users and technical users alike

01:48:46   and I know that that is a

01:48:48   I hear from people all the time you always

01:48:50   mention that and that's exactly it I don't

01:48:52   have a Squarespace account but I just told

01:48:54   so and so who runs a restaurant who I know to

01:48:56   use Squarespace and they love it

01:48:58   keep it in mind and

01:49:00   remember my URL you can send them there and

01:49:02   I'll get credit

01:49:04   so where do you go? Go to

01:49:06   Squarespace.com and remember

01:49:08   the code

01:49:10   Squarespace.com/

01:49:12   talk show that's the code

01:49:14   just told you to remember it I should tell

01:49:16   it to you and remember that offer code

01:49:18   talk show know the just talk show

01:49:20   and when you pay and

01:49:22   you can wait 30 days get a free

01:49:24   trial pay afterwards you get

01:49:26   10% off your first purchase and you can use it

01:49:28   to pay for up to a year so

01:49:30   remember that code Squarespace.com/

01:49:32   talk show

01:49:34   alright iPhone

01:49:36   12 I wrote a lot

01:49:38   you wrote a lot

01:49:40   I don't know how much more

01:49:42   how much more is there to say I don't know

01:49:44   I thought that one of the things I was

01:49:46   reading your review and it

01:49:48   I always feel this way I always feel

01:49:50   like I have a strong opinion about this but this

01:49:52   feels like off I feel like my

01:49:54   my opinion here maybe isn't what I'm

01:49:56   supposed to have and then when I

01:49:58   read other people say the same thing I'm like

01:50:00   okay I'm not nuts and my

01:50:02   okay I'm not nuts

01:50:04   when I read your review is

01:50:06   I think the iPhone 12

01:50:08   is a nicer

01:50:10   thing in hand

01:50:12   than the iPhone 12 Pro

01:50:14   yeah I

01:50:16   was immediately taken back to the

01:50:18   moment I unboxed I remember where I

01:50:20   was I was in my office

01:50:22   at Macworld

01:50:24   unboxed the iPhone 5 which was the

01:50:26   one where they had the black model

01:50:28   that was like all black

01:50:30   and I took the

01:50:32   iPhone 12 which my review unit was black

01:50:34   didn't ask that's just what they

01:50:36   sent and I because I'm sort of

01:50:38   intrigued by the blue but I got a black one and

01:50:40   I took it out and I was like oh

01:50:42   like I just got that feeling like

01:50:44   the matte sides which don't pick

01:50:46   up fingerprints and again everybody's

01:50:48   got their own take on it but I had that

01:50:50   moment where I thought it's lighter it's

01:50:52   grippier the metal

01:50:54   looks nicer because it's matte

01:50:56   and doesn't pick up fingerprints

01:50:58   and and so like

01:51:00   leaving aside do you want a

01:51:02   telephoto camera and like there are reasons to

01:51:04   get the pro model but I thought it was really funny

01:51:06   that the cheaper model felt nicer

01:51:08   to me and I don't know how

01:51:10   I'm going to feel about the mini but if I were

01:51:12   to buy one of these

01:51:14   two models today I

01:51:16   would buy the 12 I would forgo the telephoto

01:51:18   I would forgo the

01:51:20   the 60 frame HDR

01:51:22   video and I would go you know

01:51:24   I would forgo the raw

01:51:26   Apple Pro raw I would forgo that

01:51:28   stuff because although it's nice

01:51:30   I'm probably not going to really use it that much

01:51:32   and not only would I save a little money

01:51:34   but like just bottom

01:51:36   line just feels nicer

01:51:38   and that's weird right that the cheaper phone feels nicer

01:51:40   but to me at least it feels nicer

01:51:42   and

01:51:44   there were parts

01:51:46   of the iPhone 11 and the 10R

01:51:48   that I thought were nice and maybe

01:51:50   nicer I I like the glossy

01:51:52   glass back better I'm convinced

01:51:54   of it and I just and whether it's just

01:51:56   it is subjective but I just like it

01:51:58   better and so I like that part of the 10R

01:52:00   and the 11 non-pro

01:52:02   better than the pro models

01:52:04   oh no I guess with the 10R

01:52:06   the with the 10R

01:52:08   the iPhone 10S still had a glass

01:52:10   back a glossy back right they were both

01:52:12   sort of shiny it was it was just last

01:52:14   year I just the 11 and the

01:52:16   the 11 and 11 pro were inverted yeah

01:52:18   so so the the 11 got

01:52:20   the the shiny glass back with the matte

01:52:22   in the glass on the

01:52:24   camera sensor right and the

01:52:26   inverse on the pro I just like the feel

01:52:28   of it I it's like and I

01:52:30   I stick with my description that it's

01:52:32   it's just tacky in a way that shoes

01:52:34   on a clean basketball court

01:52:36   that squeak are and it just gives you that

01:52:38   grip I just like it I'll you run your finger

01:52:40   on a on a clean pane of glass and it's

01:52:42   going to grab the the finger and if you

01:52:44   run it on a textured piece of glass it's going to slide

01:52:46   like it's it's that's just what it is

01:52:48   it's grabbing it's grabbing onto your finger

01:52:50   there so yeah I I remember

01:52:52   thinking last year with the 11

01:52:54   versus the 11 pro I like

01:52:56   aspects of this 11

01:52:58   more I like this glossy back

01:53:00   I really liked that part of

01:53:02   the 10 and 10s and I don't

01:53:04   like this matte finish

01:53:06   I don't hate it but I

01:53:08   just it it doesn't feel better to me

01:53:10   and just practically

01:53:12   it just feels more slippery and I don't

01:53:14   really think it looks better either it

01:53:16   kind of looks plain

01:53:18   um yeah

01:53:20   I mean it look aesthetics

01:53:22   are very personal right

01:53:24   and um I

01:53:26   I said that in my review it's like all I can tell you is how

01:53:28   I feel about this but my feeling is

01:53:30   one that I think the 12 feels

01:53:32   nicer than the the pro

01:53:34   and that's just for reasons I have

01:53:36   reasons but you could disagree with me

01:53:38   and that's fine and the other thing is

01:53:40   that I'm getting kind of

01:53:42   tired of Apple deciding

01:53:44   that pro means boring and

01:53:46   I feel like Apple believes that pro is boring

01:53:48   and and that's you

01:53:50   know having boring

01:53:52   color as an option is good

01:53:54   because you don't want to like this is

01:53:56   your device that you're going to have everywhere but it only

01:53:58   comes in bright green or bright pink

01:54:00   and you have to choose yeah

01:54:02   I mean I get I get it

01:54:04   but the the pro

01:54:06   colors are like you know gray

01:54:08   and lighter silvery gray

01:54:10   and sort of a tanny

01:54:12   gold and

01:54:14   and then the the blue that's a very dark

01:54:16   blue that is really kind of a gray

01:54:18   blue just like last year they had the gray

01:54:20   green and and then

01:54:22   you look at the 12s and they're like

01:54:24   bright blue bright red

01:54:26   yeah so I did not ask

01:54:28   for colors either they sent me the two

01:54:30   in blue and I unpack them

01:54:32   and instantly I thought

01:54:34   I like the regular 12 blue

01:54:36   better I mean I'm a normally

01:54:38   a buy everything in black

01:54:40   if it comes in black person

01:54:42   me too but I also have opinions on what I

01:54:44   like better if I were to buy

01:54:46   it in color and I was like

01:54:48   if I were going to buy one of these on color alone

01:54:50   I would buy the the blue blue

01:54:52   plain blue whatever we want to call

01:54:54   it of the iPhone 12 than the Pacific

01:54:56   blue and my wife

01:54:58   and son concurred and the

01:55:00   three of us three is a good number because

01:55:02   we you know somebody has to break the tie

01:55:04   usually color in particular

01:55:06   our family has very very strong opinions

01:55:08   on color

01:55:10   all three of us everybody

01:55:12   agreed that the regular iPhone 12 blue

01:55:14   is just it's just nicer it's

01:55:16   just cooler it's it's anything

01:55:18   you could say like is it more fun

01:55:20   is it just looks better

01:55:22   is it look nicer is it look more premium

01:55:24   all of those things right

01:55:26   it's very interesting to me I think

01:55:28   my term was that it somehow looks

01:55:30   it looks fun

01:55:32   without seeming frivolous or silly

01:55:34   maybe in a way that red

01:55:36   does you know again not like it

01:55:38   the red looks bad I haven't seen that's

01:55:40   the other weird thing about this year with

01:55:42   no hands on air and

01:55:44   no can't just pop into an apple

01:55:46   store I don't know what all I know is what it

01:55:48   looks like in pictures right

01:55:50   but red seems a little more

01:55:52   what I'm talking about where it

01:55:54   just seems not not childish I

01:55:56   don't think it's bad it's just not for me but

01:55:58   the blue seems like even if you are

01:56:00   sort of you know

01:56:02   not looking for like a teenager's

01:56:04   looking phone this

01:56:06   blue for the iPhone 12 it just pops

01:56:08   and it just looks deep and

01:56:10   nice and

01:56:12   it can yeah apple does

01:56:14   anodization of aluminum so well

01:56:16   that's the thing it's like they have the

01:56:18   surgical stainless steel in case you need to

01:56:20   operate on somebody with the edge of your iPhone I guess

01:56:22   on the pro and that's great

01:56:24   yeah it's a premium material it's great

01:56:26   but like

01:56:28   apple's really good at aluminum like

01:56:30   really good and they seem

01:56:32   to have done a very good job with the aluminum

01:56:34   edges of the

01:56:36   12 but again

01:56:38   you know everybody can have their

01:56:40   take on it but I was taken aback I did not

01:56:42   expect to feel this way

01:56:44   I mean I've been poking apple a while

01:56:46   about color because I feel like

01:56:48   they're way too conservative with color

01:56:50   and so having this other line where they

01:56:52   are not as conservative is great

01:56:54   but it does make

01:56:56   me laugh that like if you

01:56:58   want the pro phone you've got to

01:57:00   be like that the graphite is what

01:57:02   I got I got black and graphite because they

01:57:04   wanted I think they said all the reviewers sort of

01:57:06   paired up if they could I got

01:57:08   black and graphite and that graphite phone is

01:57:10   the most boring it's just

01:57:12   it's you know it's like space gray

01:57:14   it's like all their grays it is this

01:57:16   kind of dark silver it is just a

01:57:18   gray thing and if

01:57:20   you don't want anybody to notice your phone

01:57:22   and I heard from a couple people who said I love

01:57:24   the gray because it's boring right I

01:57:26   don't want anybody to even know that

01:57:28   I have a phone like I just don't care

01:57:30   then great I mean I guess

01:57:32   but I think it's sad

01:57:34   that among the options

01:57:36   for the pro there isn't what I would

01:57:38   consider sort of a fun color

01:57:40   there's just you know the gold band is

01:57:42   apparently very pretty but

01:57:44   like at least the gray one that I got it's just

01:57:46   it's kind of a boring phone and

01:57:48   I'm comparing it to black I'm not even comparing

01:57:50   it to red or blue I'm literally

01:57:52   comparing it to black and it's the black is more

01:57:54   exciting I had an interesting moment a month

01:57:56   earlier where when when they sent

01:57:58   me the review unit for the series

01:58:00   six watch they

01:58:02   sent it with a

01:58:04   iPhone 11

01:58:06   that I guess

01:58:08   I could pair with it and I just

01:58:10   I never I didn't even

01:58:12   use I was like I'll just pair it with one of my

01:58:14   last thing I need is another freaking iPhone

01:58:16   right

01:58:18   and again it's just like

01:58:20   this feels ridiculous that I've just got this brand

01:58:22   new iPhone in a box that I'm just going to send back

01:58:24   to Apple in a couple of weeks without ever having

01:58:26   really used it but I did so I was like all right well

01:58:28   I'll open it up and look at it and it was black it was just

01:58:30   a black iPhone 11

01:58:32   and I didn't even

01:58:34   try I never I've still not powered it on

01:58:36   even you know it's just there for me

01:58:38   to pair with this Apple

01:58:40   watch for review because I guess that the

01:58:42   reason they did this and they don't do that with most

01:58:44   that in fact I don't think they've ever done it with Apple

01:58:46   watch before but it was the fact that you

01:58:48   needed iOS 14 to pair

01:58:50   with the series seven watch and they don't

01:58:52   want to assume that you were going to

01:58:54   personally upgrade your iPhone

01:58:56   to iOS 14 yet

01:58:58   you know I think that's what they're thinking they don't

01:59:00   you know Apple doesn't explain themselves but

01:59:02   anyway I had this black iPhone

01:59:04   11 and

01:59:06   I was like damn

01:59:08   that is a nice looking phone

01:59:10   and just I never turned it on

01:59:12   and I own the graphite

01:59:14   11 pro and

01:59:16   I was like this and I took it out and I'm like

01:59:18   looking at it and you know unsurprisingly

01:59:20   given that most

01:59:22   of the time I've owned the 11 pro has been

01:59:24   in 2020 my

01:59:26   11 pro is in near mint

01:59:28   condition

01:59:30   very very good condition

01:59:32   usually my phones are in good condition but

01:59:34   this one is very

01:59:36   I like the black iPhone 11

01:59:38   it's just better looking

01:59:40   to me it just looks cooler in a way

01:59:42   I don't know

01:59:44   my review unit at the 11 last

01:59:46   year was white and it's

01:59:48   nice

01:59:50   my 10R review unit was coral

01:59:52   and I thought it was gorgeous

01:59:54   that orangey reddish kind of color

01:59:56   I thought it looked really good

01:59:58   and I was like oh look at this fun iPhone

02:00:00   and when my daughter went off to college

02:00:02   last year

02:00:04   one of the things that I did as a

02:00:06   parent who's trying to take care of their kid

02:00:08   is I bought her an iPhone 11 she'd always been

02:00:10   using hand-me-downs I bought her an iPhone 11

02:00:12   in purple and

02:00:14   it's a little more pastel-y

02:00:16   than I would like I think brighter would have

02:00:18   been better but it's gorgeous it

02:00:20   really is it looks great

02:00:22   and she was very happy with it

02:00:24   and I thought see

02:00:26   these phones can look

02:00:28   fun and be fun and I think

02:00:30   should be I think that they're part of us and part

02:00:32   of our personality and part of our

02:00:34   lives and I don't want to force fun on people who don't

02:00:36   want fun but I do think it's a shame that

02:00:38   there aren't more fun options

02:00:40   and I criticize

02:00:42   Apple for this in the pro line but I should say I'm so happy

02:00:44   that Apple has made another line of iPhones

02:00:46   and they are doing fun colors

02:00:48   because if you look at the

02:00:50   Mac like

02:00:52   your color options on the Mac

02:00:54   are sort of a silver

02:00:56   and a somewhat darker silver

02:00:58   and occasionally a goldish

02:01:00   metallic

02:01:02   and that's it

02:01:04   and that's it

02:01:06   like would you like the

02:01:08   space gray or would you like

02:01:10   the silver which is almost

02:01:12   out of context you can't tell them apart

02:01:14   you'd have to be next to each other and the iMac

02:01:16   and the iMac Pro and I was like oh

02:01:18   look the iMac Pro is a little bit darker

02:01:20   but like

02:01:22   I would love a blue

02:01:24   MacBook Air right like I think go

02:01:26   for it, anodize that aluminum

02:01:28   do it, do it but I'm

02:01:30   happy that with the iPhone that they finally have gotten

02:01:32   back some of that spirit of the iPods back in the

02:01:34   day which is fun colors because

02:01:36   they are expressions of our

02:01:38   whether it's expressions of our personality

02:01:40   for others or whether it's just a little jolt of kind of

02:01:42   fun of like you look at it and you're like oh look at that blue

02:01:44   or look at that black

02:01:46   it's a nice thing so I'm

02:01:48   glad that exists it's just that

02:01:50   I'm a little befuddled about why the

02:01:52   Pro model like the

02:01:54   Pro model with color it's this

02:01:56   pretty drab color

02:01:58   totally this is

02:02:00   objective not subjective

02:02:02   the Pro ones

02:02:04   the polished stainless steel flat

02:02:06   sides are fingerprint magnets

02:02:08   I don't know that I read a review that didn't mention

02:02:10   it and

02:02:12   if I did you know it was

02:02:14   an oddball everybody mentioned it I remember

02:02:16   when I first started noticing it I was like

02:02:18   is there something wrong or do I need to wash my hands

02:02:20   I like wash my hands really

02:02:22   good and dried them and then it's

02:02:24   like two minutes later covered with fingerprints

02:02:26   and

02:02:28   it reminds me of

02:02:30   I'm pretty sure that it

02:02:32   was a couple of years into the

02:02:34   iPhone when I learned

02:02:36   the word oleophobic

02:02:38   oleophobic

02:02:40   coding

02:02:42   and it was like oh yes

02:02:44   thank you this has been driving me nuts

02:02:46   because my iPhone was

02:02:48   constantly covered with fingerprints

02:02:50   and it's like oh this actually works this is

02:02:52   amazing this is great there is

02:02:54   if there's an oleophobic coating

02:02:56   on the stainless steel side of the iPhone

02:02:58   12 Pro

02:03:00   that Apple should get their money back for it because

02:03:02   it doesn't work it is

02:03:04   a fingerprint magnet and that's

02:03:06   to me there's no way this one you

02:03:08   see fingerprints all the time this other one

02:03:10   you never see fingerprints

02:03:12   that is better to me that is

02:03:14   objectively better in

02:03:16   and of itself the aluminum

02:03:18   side of the regular 12

02:03:20   the other thing I

02:03:22   switched so part

02:03:24   of the very nice

02:03:26   unbelievably lucky thing about

02:03:28   being somebody who gets these things to review and they

02:03:30   send you both of them is you get to use them

02:03:32   both and so instead of just being in a

02:03:34   store and spending

02:03:36   15 minutes side by side saying oh

02:03:38   a little bit of this one a little bit of that one okay

02:03:40   and now I'm gonna buy I have to make a choice I gotta buy one

02:03:42   I get to use them both

02:03:44   the way I did the review is I

02:03:46   I used both I

02:03:48   set up both but I spent most of my time with the

02:03:50   12 Pro because it had more

02:03:52   and it felt like

02:03:54   more likely the one I would be interested in

02:03:56   I'm used to having the three cameras now

02:03:58   um

02:04:00   wanted to try the things like the

02:04:02   Dolby 60 frames per second

02:04:04   you know might as well spend more time

02:04:06   with the one that does more because everything else

02:04:08   they apply you know anything

02:04:10   everything that 12 Pro can do the 12

02:04:12   can do

02:04:14   um but

02:04:16   I forget how many days ago I should I guess I should

02:04:18   I guess I can look it up somehow but

02:04:20   I don't know four five six days ago four

02:04:22   five days ago I switched and

02:04:24   I redid the regular

02:04:26   12 and I've been

02:04:28   living on it for the last four or five days

02:04:30   I now that I'm living

02:04:32   on it as my main iPhone I

02:04:34   like it even more and

02:04:36   my thinking

02:04:38   hey I think that this being

02:04:40   you know 20 grams lighter or whatever

02:04:42   the difference in weight is this is nicer

02:04:44   too now when I pick up the 12

02:04:46   Pro I'm like why is this this thing is like a brick

02:04:48   like the

02:04:50   I didn't think it would be noticeable

02:04:52   it is super noticeable like

02:04:54   you get used to it I'm sure but like

02:04:56   when I pick up one and then the other it's like

02:04:58   oh yeah this is like no it's lighter

02:05:00   you can tell it's not one of those things that you have to

02:05:02   trick yourself into thinking is a difference it's

02:05:04   a difference it feels more noticeable

02:05:06   to me

02:05:08   when I was using the 12

02:05:10   Pro as my main phone every time I picked up

02:05:12   the 12 I was like oh my god this is so much

02:05:14   lighter it's nicer now that I'm using the

02:05:16   12 as my main phone when I pick

02:05:18   up the 12 Pro

02:05:20   it's more because it's worse

02:05:22   and it's like this is so

02:05:24   much heavier and it's not just

02:05:26   for the camera lens and LIDAR

02:05:28   right camera these little tiny cameras don't weigh

02:05:30   that it's the steel

02:05:32   the stainless steel weighs more

02:05:34   I've been

02:05:36   using the stainless steel phones since the

02:05:38   iPhone 10 you know they are nice

02:05:40   there's nice things to be said about

02:05:42   them but aluminum

02:05:44   being lighter and not having

02:05:46   fingerprints and having a matte

02:05:48   texture that is really nice to

02:05:50   the touch and picks up these wonderful

02:05:52   anodized colors

02:05:54   this is great

02:05:56   I mean and it's good news for everybody

02:05:58   out there you can save $130

02:06:00   or whatever the price difference is

02:06:02   and get a more fun

02:06:04   better phone that doesn't have fingerprints on this side

02:06:06   yeah and unlike the

02:06:08   11 where it was also a larger phone so people

02:06:10   who are sort of turned off by that would be like alright

02:06:12   well I'm gonna get the 11 Pro because

02:06:14   I don't want the bigger phone

02:06:16   in my hand it's a little bit too big now

02:06:18   they're the same size in the hand and

02:06:20   so really it's a matter of

02:06:22   you know a few features that are on the

02:06:24   Pro model and style

02:06:26   and personal style preference

02:06:28   and that's yeah I found myself

02:06:30   surprised at discovering that

02:06:32   my personal preference would be the lower

02:06:34   end model because usually

02:06:36   you know it's like oh well I'm a nerd I

02:06:38   care about the details I'm gonna get the higher end

02:06:40   model and I was like no I prefer the lower end model

02:06:42   as weird as that is because it just

02:06:44   feels nicer to me

02:06:46   and everybody's taste is different

02:06:48   again but it was

02:06:50   very clear I have a very clear preference

02:06:52   for that the 12 it's really good

02:06:54   and Apple again Apple

02:06:56   is the world's single best company

02:06:58   when it comes to aluminum

02:07:00   as far as I can tell like they are

02:07:02   the experts on what you do with

02:07:04   aluminum and that aluminum

02:07:06   on the edges of the

02:07:08   12 it's great yeah it's well

02:07:10   done just it's a tiny little

02:07:12   thing but I feel like

02:07:14   even the mute switch feels better

02:07:16   in aluminum than steel and

02:07:18   I only really noticed this when I went to

02:07:20   the 12 as my main phone and I went back

02:07:22   to the 12 Pro and I'm like you know

02:07:24   what it feels sharp it's

02:07:26   too sharp on the

02:07:28   12 Pro and maybe now at this point I'm just

02:07:30   like it's like the placebo effect and I'm finding

02:07:32   things to like about the 12 and the 12

02:07:34   Pro but the buttons they just

02:07:36   feel better I don't know I really

02:07:38   like it and just feel like

02:07:40   the stainless steel is

02:07:42   needlessly

02:07:44   and I just wonder and I wonder how much

02:07:46   of it carries over from the watch like with the

02:07:48   watch I get it like steel

02:07:50   is nicer for a watch and they

02:07:52   use it you know it's

02:07:54   you know famously it's been used for

02:07:56   wristwatches for

02:07:58   you know 100 years it's

02:08:00   stainless steel is a very nice material to make

02:08:02   a premium watch out of

02:08:04   and

02:08:06   I like having the heavier

02:08:08   watches I

02:08:10   I'm used to it with

02:08:12   my regular watches

02:08:14   but aluminum is great it's

02:08:16   also a great material and most people who aren't

02:08:18   wristwatch wearers like having a lighter

02:08:20   watch so it's like the

02:08:22   fact that the aluminum apple

02:08:24   watches are cheaper than the stainless steel ones

02:08:26   is like it's very similar to me

02:08:28   to this distinction between

02:08:30   the phones where it's like oh you get all the same features

02:08:32   and sensors and it's lighter

02:08:34   too oh sign

02:08:36   me up

02:08:38   yeah yeah I agree

02:08:40   I have one other thing

02:08:42   on this front oh

02:08:44   the screens being

02:08:46   brighter that the tech specs say

02:08:48   the iPhone 12 Pro

02:08:50   has a HDR

02:08:52   content they have the same maximum brightness

02:08:54   but for typical use for

02:08:56   non HDR content

02:08:58   there's like a 800 versus

02:09:00   600 nit typical brightness

02:09:02   I don't

02:09:04   see any difference in brightness between these

02:09:06   things at all and I spent

02:09:08   too long trying to find

02:09:10   it I was like why am I wasting all

02:09:12   this time on this I didn't even wind up

02:09:14   you know different go down those roots when you're like

02:09:16   doing the side by side and it's like wait

02:09:18   I just blew 90 minutes trying

02:09:20   to figure out why if this is brighter

02:09:22   or not and it's like I ended up with nothing

02:09:24   well I ended up with like my one minute my

02:09:26   one minute into it opinion these

02:09:28   you know I said both to about you

02:09:30   know whatever I would set them add as a user

02:09:32   up in control center as brightness

02:09:34   look at them side by side on the

02:09:36   same web pages look at some photos

02:09:38   they look exactly

02:09:40   the same exactly

02:09:42   I don't know what the difference is that

02:09:44   would justify putting that in the tech specs

02:09:46   I tried

02:09:48   to ask Apple and

02:09:50   not that they

02:09:52   they didn't give me a straight answer but

02:09:54   basically they said I'm not crazy that I

02:09:56   think that it's the same brightness I think

02:09:58   I think that what they're doing but

02:10:00   won't say is

02:10:02   that

02:10:04   they're they are the same components it's

02:10:06   not like they're oh they're using a different manufacturer

02:10:08   or it's you know if you take it out and

02:10:10   put it under a microscope you'd see oh this is

02:10:12   a totally different screen technology in the 12

02:10:14   and 12 pro I think that

02:10:16   like as they're coming off the ones that test

02:10:18   better they put in the pro models

02:10:20   because they're spec for higher brightness and that

02:10:22   their screens are

02:10:24   such an organic manufacturing

02:10:26   thing that there is some natural

02:10:28   very minor variability

02:10:30   between like your iPhone 12

02:10:32   and my iPhone 12

02:10:34   but basically that

02:10:36   is definitely that is not a reason

02:10:38   to get an iPhone 12 pro there

02:10:40   is no noticeable day-to-day brightness

02:10:42   difference it's not like oh well when you go

02:10:44   outside you'll see it in Sunday no that

02:10:46   that's not a thing

02:10:48   yeah yeah they they're very

02:10:50   close they're very similar in

02:10:52   fact this is an interesting area where Apple probably

02:10:54   could have done made made a greater

02:10:56   effort to separate them than it

02:10:58   did and I like that it didn't

02:11:00   because it means that you really have

02:11:02   have some very specific choices and if

02:11:04   you want to go with a lower end phone first

02:11:06   you know style reasons or whatever

02:11:08   you can do that you mentioned

02:11:10   in passing I just wanted to say I

02:11:12   love the iPhone 5 I also never

02:11:14   use a case on the iPhone 5 or

02:11:16   5s

02:11:18   and I've been

02:11:20   using the 12 without a case

02:11:22   and I always had a case

02:11:24   on the on the 6 and up

02:11:26   because it had the curved edges and I always felt

02:11:28   like it was precarious

02:11:30   and I currently

02:11:32   have you know I still my plan

02:11:34   is to not wear a case on it because

02:11:36   it is it just it feels

02:11:38   more safe in my hand

02:11:40   and maybe it's not and I'll drop it and I'll

02:11:42   regret everything but it feels safer

02:11:44   in my hand and that

02:11:46   makes it so much smaller and lighter too just not

02:11:48   having the case stuck on it yeah

02:11:50   I think so even though I typically

02:11:52   don't wear the other one with the case either but

02:11:54   I I put in the case I went to a leather

02:11:56   case for those and it's fine

02:11:58   but I am so happy to not have to have a case

02:12:00   on it and feel like it's safe enough

02:12:02   how cool is it I love this little detail

02:12:04   I didn't pick up on it that the there's like an NFC

02:12:06   chip in the Apple's cases and

02:12:08   when you put it in a case and the MagSafe

02:12:10   indicator shows up on screen it's

02:12:12   color coordinated with your case

02:12:14   if it's an Apple case

02:12:16   I read about that and it

02:12:18   sounds really cool I have a black

02:12:20   case for my black

02:12:22   so it doesn't really do anything

02:12:24   I excuse myself for not noticing

02:12:26   because I picked Apple's default

02:12:28   blue wallpapers there's like default

02:12:30   special press of the screen

02:12:32   and you know there are these

02:12:34   wallpapers that you only get specific to the model

02:12:36   phone you have and I picked them to make

02:12:38   it easy for me to tell which phone I'm using

02:12:40   so I can remember while I'm using it

02:12:42   but those wallpapers I've

02:12:44   chosen are blue and the case they sent

02:12:46   me was blue because the phone's blue it's like

02:12:48   blue is you know let's send John

02:12:50   blue everything so I just thought the blue

02:12:52   was because my wallpaper was blue and

02:12:54   then they they also did send me the clear case

02:12:56   and the clear case

02:12:58   of course the color coordination is

02:13:00   gray and I just didn't

02:13:02   notice the difference

02:13:04   but that's a cool feature that is that

02:13:06   and that is the little bits of

02:13:08   what do we call it whimsy that we wonder

02:13:10   if Apple is lost you know

02:13:12   yeah right right the idea that your phone

02:13:14   knows exactly what color it is and what

02:13:16   color its case is I love that

02:13:18   yeah it's very fun

02:13:20   5G I

02:13:22   wrote about it I know you

02:13:24   wrote you didn't get any 5G service

02:13:26   yeah I have a 5G

02:13:28   sim here that AT&T claims will

02:13:30   let me see the 5G that's

02:13:32   apparently at the end of my block and I can find out whether

02:13:34   it's actually any faster or not I haven't driven

02:13:36   into San Francisco where they have

02:13:38   the 5G ultra

02:13:40   wide band the ultra wide

02:13:42   band stuff I haven't I haven't done

02:13:44   that I'm an AT&T person we don't even

02:13:46   have horizon people who with horizon

02:13:48   phones who come to my house say why do I have

02:13:50   no service because it's like that

02:13:52   here but did you see

02:13:54   where I wrote about 5G in my article

02:13:56   I'm a little bit proud of it

02:13:58   yes I did it's the

02:14:00   footnote at the end after the period

02:14:02   at the end of the last sentence of the review

02:14:04   and it literally says 5G isn't that

02:14:06   relevant for most people and it's

02:14:08   it's basically a footnote when it

02:14:10   comes to these phones because I was like

02:14:12   staring at my review and being like oh god I haven't even talked about

02:14:14   5G but what do I say I don't have it

02:14:16   I haven't seen it I also have thought

02:14:18   for the last year plus that it's really kind of a

02:14:20   marketing scam like it it will

02:14:22   matter to some people sometime but right

02:14:24   now everybody's just picking it up and running

02:14:26   with it because it's a way to sell

02:14:28   people on more expensive plans and

02:14:30   new phones and like let's

02:14:32   just get to it Tim Cook in the

02:14:34   analyst call was like it's a once in a decade opportunity

02:14:36   to market a new wireless thing it's

02:14:38   like yeah it's an opportunity but

02:14:40   most people yeah

02:14:42   it's it's

02:14:44   it's not as exciting as they're making it out to be

02:14:46   and I

02:14:48   I realized I had nothing I like I literally

02:14:50   have nothing to say I've written about the first 5G

02:14:52   iPhone and I have literally

02:14:54   nothing to say about 5G

02:14:56   I got I do have

02:14:58   ultrawide here in certain parts of

02:15:00   center city Philadelphia not super close

02:15:02   to my house but easily an easy walk

02:15:04   and I got it and I got

02:15:06   extraordinary speeds

02:15:08   I saw that 4,000 megabits per

02:15:10   second is the theoretical maximum I

02:15:12   got up to 2,700

02:15:14   which is really close

02:15:16   2.7 gigahertz networking

02:15:18   over the air on a cell network

02:15:20   and you know I described it

02:15:22   as holy shit fast

02:15:24   and yeah and it's fun I didn't know how to write it but

02:15:26   because but I also don't think it's a reason

02:15:28   to buy the phone and don't think it's practical

02:15:30   and I

02:15:32   asked subsequent to my review

02:15:34   went somewhere where I did go

02:15:36   indoors and I

02:15:38   outside the door of the establishment

02:15:40   I was getting 5G ultrawide

02:15:42   I quick ran a speed test to

02:15:44   make sure it was really fast

02:15:46   and I forget what I got it wasn't quite

02:15:48   20 some it wasn't over

02:15:50   2,000 megabits per second but it was over

02:15:52   1,000 which is really fast it was

02:15:54   gigabit you know it's like me being disappointed

02:15:56   that I'm only getting gigabit speeds

02:15:58   as soon as I

02:16:00   went inside right to LTE

02:16:02   so like the idea that ultrawide

02:16:04   is this thing that doesn't even go through

02:16:06   glass is true and

02:16:08   again sporting

02:16:10   arenas and the idea that it deals

02:16:12   with congestion

02:16:14   you know that you're oh you could be at a concert and

02:16:16   you'll still be able to post to Instagram you know

02:16:18   because that's great

02:16:20   we're not going there now

02:16:22   but the ultrawide

02:16:24   you know so for the congestion that is great

02:16:26   the ultrawide

02:16:28   only working outdoors when is

02:16:30   that actually practical like I

02:16:32   am amazed technically and

02:16:34   you know my sparring

02:16:36   partner on Twitter Mark Gurman

02:16:38   called me out on it you know

02:16:40   that I had written before that I don't

02:16:42   really think this is a reason to

02:16:44   be excited

02:16:46   about these phones because I don't see

02:16:48   this isn't the main thing people are

02:16:50   complaining of this is even on the top of their list

02:16:52   of what their complaints are with their phones

02:16:54   is LTE speeds

02:16:56   and I still believe that

02:16:58   but I also got

02:17:00   truly amazing speeds with 5G

02:17:02   ultrawide it does work it is amazing

02:17:04   it is worth noting

02:17:06   but I still stand by my

02:17:08   point of when when am I ever going to

02:17:10   take advantage of this this

02:17:12   thing that only works on my phone only outdoors

02:17:14   like in a ballpark or

02:17:16   if you're like working in a park or

02:17:18   something but yeah the fact that when you go inside

02:17:20   I mean it's like a Wi-Fi hotspot

02:17:22   too the range isn't particularly great

02:17:24   block by block in some parts of Philadelphia

02:17:26   I would describe it as a half a block

02:17:28   you know half of a city block

02:17:30   has it and half doesn't

02:17:32   and it just immediately goes away if you told me that

02:17:34   5G would 5G coverage

02:17:36   would hit my house with something that would give me

02:17:38   gigabit speeds at my house over wireless

02:17:40   you know

02:17:42   that's potentially life changing because

02:17:44   you could like cancel your cable internet

02:17:46   and just buy an unlimited wireless

02:17:48   plan but it's

02:17:50   not that and then also let's keep in mind

02:17:52   most people still don't have 5G

02:17:54   phones and

02:17:56   and who knows what it's going to be like when you do

02:17:58   you know what happened with LTE I remember

02:18:00   I remember when I got my first LTE

02:18:02   phone I remember when I first

02:18:04   had the iPhone that did the

02:18:06   fake 4G on AT&T

02:18:08   if you remember that before they had fake 5G they had

02:18:10   fake 4G

02:18:12   they always have a fake they always have a you leave it to AT&T

02:18:14   to always have a fake next gen

02:18:16   so

02:18:18   every time you flip over you're like

02:18:20   oh my god it's so fast

02:18:22   but then you wait six months and everybody's on the network

02:18:24   and it's not fast anymore because now you're

02:18:26   sharing with everybody else so

02:18:28   there's also that kind of illusion of 5G

02:18:30   speed and I know that that is theoretically

02:18:32   there but even if

02:18:34   it will be great if I go to a

02:18:36   college football game next year

02:18:38   at California Memorial Stadium and

02:18:40   they're in front of

02:18:42   you know with 70,000

02:18:44   people and we're booing Stanford

02:18:46   and

02:18:48   I can actually like take a picture

02:18:50   and tweet it and

02:18:52   it goes right out

02:18:54   or it goes on Instagram or whatever

02:18:56   thanks to 5G I'll be like

02:18:58   awesome 5G g