148: ‘Occupy Portland’ With John Moltz

0:00:00- Thinking about setting up a business unlocking iPhones.

0:00:02- It's easy, I hear.

0:00:05- Yeah.

0:00:05Wow, it's going nuts though, you know?

0:00:08It's like, and I kind of feel like I kind of called it

0:00:11where it's like, I mean, I don't think this was very hard.

0:00:14It wasn't like I'm the only one, you know,

0:00:16made a unique observation, but that,

0:00:18it's far from a slam dunk because it's largely,

0:00:24at least so far, being tried in a court of public opinion,

0:00:28not in the court of law.

0:00:29- Except for today.

0:00:32- Yeah, so this is actually late breaking news.

0:00:36Can you explain this?

0:00:36I think you're probably better informed than I am.

0:00:39- Well, I wouldn't say that.

0:00:41In another case, not the one that is really

0:00:45at the forefront of all this,

0:00:47a federal judge in Brooklyn today ruled

0:00:50that the government could not force Apple

0:00:54to unlock a phone, an iPhone.

0:00:56And it was, I guess, that they--

0:00:59again, was this publicized at all?

0:01:01Did we know that this case was coming,

0:01:03or just drop out of the thin air?

0:01:05Well, there were--

0:01:07they had talked about several other cases in which not

0:01:11necessarily the FBI, but other district attorneys

0:01:17and other jurisdictions, they were

0:01:20trying to get Apple to unlock phones in order

0:01:22to get information for not necessarily

0:01:25terrorism related cases but just like you know racketeering drugs what I mean like a whole bunch of

0:01:30right and so this one this new york case so let's just call it by the location right we'll say the

0:01:34new york this is the new york case and the other one's the sand burner bernardino right um case so

0:01:40the this is different and it's one of the ways it's different is uh it's a drug case so it's not

0:01:46terrorism um which doesn't really shouldn't really change the law but it absolutely changes the

0:01:53amount of radioactive publicity around this. You know, like you say there's a guy in Brooklyn

0:02:02who's up on drug charges and everybody is like, "Oh, okay."

0:02:06It's Tuesday.

0:02:09Right, and then you say a bunch of a Muslim couple committed an act of terrorism and shot up 14,

0:02:18killed 14 people and shot up 22 others and it's terrorism and then people are, you know, and again

0:02:25I'm not even making fun of it. It's a natural reaction. It is, that's shocking and it's, it is,

0:02:30you know, yeah, and I mean, as far as I know in this drug case, nobody was killed. I mean,

0:02:36you know, I mean, maybe somebody was killed in relation to this guy, whoever the defendant is

0:02:41dealing is that I don't actually know, but you know, it certainly wasn't a case where 14 people

0:02:46Right, but in terms of the legal question of whether the United States federal law as it stands today

0:02:51can have can result in the Department of Justice getting a court order to force

0:02:59Apple or any other company to write new code for their devices to comply with the law. I don't think it's any different. There's nothing

0:03:07magical about terrorism that's different than drugs in terms of

0:03:12Can Apple be compelled to do this and the judge in this case this was his name or James Orenstein?

0:03:18It seems I didn't read his order yet. It's it's too late breaking. It's a 50 page thing

0:03:21But there are some highlights that came out. He really seems to have ripped the feds

0:03:25What's the one that math or friend Matthew pans are into the show Matthew Panzer into the show I

0:03:36Mean all this stuff gets down to this this

0:03:42All Ritz Act, which we have become familiar with.

0:03:47You know what? We laugh.

0:03:49Since we've done our crash course as constitutional law experts.

0:03:53We laugh. One of the things I've seen, and I do appreciate,

0:03:57I appreciate that there are people who feel otherwise, and, you know,

0:04:01it seems to me like most people who read Daring Fireball and listen to the show,

0:04:04I thought before like the last episode I did with Dalrymple,

0:04:07I thought that most people probably agreed with what I think.

0:04:11and judging from the feedback I've seen they do.

0:04:13But clearly not everybody does.

0:04:15And I'll even admit that that's--

0:04:16I don't agree, but it's nice to have a reasonable disagreement

0:04:20with people about politics.

0:04:22That no, this isn't the world we want to live in.

0:04:25We really should have something where the cops can get into a phone

0:04:28if they need to.

0:04:30OK.

0:04:32But the question of whether this All Rits Act

0:04:35is the law that this should be based on.

0:04:37To me, even if you think that law enforcement

0:04:41should have some kind of technical way to get at a phone if they really need to. They

0:04:45I really feel like it's almost you can't debate that they should try to get a new law

0:04:50passed because the laws as they stand there's just no way to get there from here.

0:04:56Yeah. Did you read the all writs act?

0:05:00Which is no.

0:05:01I did. It's actually it's very short. It's extremely short.

0:05:04Well I think that's part of the problem which I've heard before.

0:05:06Yeah, it's very short. And it's, you know, it was written in 1789. So there are, you know, it's not, but it's not dense, you know, I mean, the plain meaning of it, especially when you read what other people say about it, you know, people who are more expert in constitutional law, if they say that the whole point of the All-Rits Act was this was right at the beginning of the federal of our federal government, you know, the Constitution, the ink wasn't even dry on it. And this was a way so the, you know, the laws, you

0:05:36all sorts of things, oh, we never thought of that,

0:05:38we better make a law.

0:05:39All those little things hadn't happened yet.

0:05:42The All Rights Act was passed as a sort of catchall

0:05:46for like, hey, if something hasn't been,

0:05:48if a case comes before you that falls between the cracks

0:05:51of the laws that hadn't been anticipated,

0:05:53this grants the courts a bit of leeway to,

0:05:55so they don't just shrug their shoulders.

0:05:59And it's really, really hard to see how that applies here,

0:06:04especially when so many laws have been passed

0:06:06about things like encryption and digital devices and stuff like that, that they easily could

0:06:11have if Congress had wanted to mandate something like this, easily could have. And in fact,

0:06:15there are laws on the books that actually stipulate the other way, that tech companies

0:06:21can't be compelled to do things. What was the... I had a link to it the other day on

0:06:26Daring Fireball, I forget the name of the act. I guess I could look it up.

0:06:32Do we have that capability?

0:06:35Yeah, it's the CALEA Act, the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act.

0:06:43So even just the name of that law really makes it clear that this is, you know, this is really

0:06:49something that's very, very close.

0:06:51And so here's the section of CALEA entitled Design of Features and Systems Configurations.

0:06:57The statute says it does not authorize any law enforcement agency or officer to require

0:07:02any specific design of equipment, facilities, services, features, or system configurations

0:07:09to be adopted by any provider of a wire or electronic communications service, any manufacturer

0:07:16of telecommunications equipment, or any provider of telecommunications support services.

0:07:23And you know, again, it's not just me, I'm not, you know, I'm not putting on my Scooby-Doo

0:07:26had here and doing like some amateur lawyering. This is, you know, real legal experts are

0:07:31saying that this, you know, this was something that Apple cited in their own motion to vacate

0:07:38the order Apple is saying that. And I think that there might be some slight ambiguity

0:07:43there that maybe this the law was kind of written on the with phone companies in in

0:07:49mind, you know, like AT&T, right, Verizon and those type of people not necessarily the

0:07:54handset maker, but I don't know. I mean, I think a plain reading of the law, you know,

0:07:59telecommunications, equipment, and support. I mean, it's, you know, a cell phone.

0:08:02That's what, that's what a microphone is.

0:08:04And that they, you know, that passage I just read very specifically seems to say you can't

0:08:08make them do things like this. You can get a warrant to like investigate what they already

0:08:14have, but you can't make them do new things.

0:08:18Yeah.

0:08:20So here's the quote from Judge Orenstein that Matthew…

0:08:24Now this is… so to reiterate for anybody who's following along and can't keep the

0:08:27names right, this is the New York case that just broke today, Monday, 29th of February.

0:08:33This wasn't the one I was thinking of, but this one's good too.

0:08:35I conclude that Apple's position is more consistent than the government's with the

0:08:39rule of statutory construction that requires giving meaning to all statutory words and

0:08:44clauses as well as the rules prohibiting interpretations that produce absurd results

0:08:50or are of suspect constitutionality.

0:08:53Pete: Right. So, in other words, I mean, it's actually, it's kind of a good read. It's like

0:08:57dripping with sarcasm. I mean, he's more -

0:08:59[Laughter]

0:08:59Jared; He is. And the one that I remembered that was, there's another one that says something like,

0:09:04it's basically to the effect of, you know, if the government's permission is, position is accurate,

0:09:10then there is nothing stopping the government from commanding someone to commit murder.

0:09:15DAVE Right. We can command you to do whatever we need to get this.

0:09:18Here's this—Glenn Greenwald of The Intercept has cited this passage. "The judge also accused

0:09:26the government of trying to manipulate secret judicial proceedings to obtain powers for itself

0:09:31against Apple that public debate in Congress would never permit. It is," Judge Orenstein wrote,

0:09:38"clear that the government has made the considered decision that it is better off securing such

0:09:44crypto legislative authority from the courts in proceedings that had always been at the

0:09:50time it filed the instant applications shielded from public scrutiny rather than taking the

0:09:55chance that open legislative debate might produce a result less to its liking."

0:10:01Back to Greenwald, because government wants the courts rather than Congress to grant this

0:10:05power, the "government's interpretation of the breadth and authority of the All-Rits Act confers

0:10:12on courts of limited jurisdiction" raises serious doubts about how such a statute could withstand

0:10:20constitutional scrutiny under the separation of powers doctrine. So what he's more or less saying

0:10:26is there's just no way that there's no way that that that by not having you know completely

0:10:31circumventing the legislature and doing this in secret through the courts how in the world does

0:10:35does that fit within our system?

0:10:37So I really, really think, I mean, as this goes on,

0:10:40and this, I mean, this is just devastating in my opinion.

0:10:43I mean, and it seems to me not just what I think,

0:10:45but you know, Greenwell's pretty smart

0:10:48on issues like this.

0:10:50It just seems like everybody who follows this stuff

0:10:52really sees this as a slam dunk case in Apple's favor.

0:10:55- Yeah, well, this ruling is a slam dunk

0:10:58in Apple's favor, definitely.

0:10:59I mean, obviously I think the government's

0:11:01gonna appeal to this too, right?

0:11:02I guess, I can't imagine that they wouldn't.

0:11:05- It seems like they would.

0:11:06So it's never completely over until the advisor capitulated

0:11:11or it's gone to the Supreme Court.

0:11:14- I'm curious, I wonder when they filed this,

0:11:16because it's clearly not the,

0:11:18so many of us have said that this Sandburner Dino phone

0:11:21is such a perfect example for the government

0:11:24because it's quote unquote terrorism.

0:11:26And it was, I mean, it wasn't just like suspects.

0:11:29I mean, these are two people who actually shot

0:11:32killed a bunch of people. I mean, it's true, you know, they actually committed it. It wasn't even like a, you know,

0:11:36right, a plan.

0:11:39And it just lends them so much more emotional, and sort of, in some ways, political weight behind their request that they don't have any case like this drug case.

0:11:55Yeah, yeah. I mean, the terrorism stuff obviously brings out people's emotions a lot more.

0:12:01Right. And again...

0:12:02Where some people think, "I like drugs."

0:12:06Right. Well, but again...

0:12:08Again...

0:12:09"I would be lost without my drug dealer."

0:12:11Again, we laugh, but I think I speak for you that... I also, though, I see that, though,

0:12:16is, you know, it's common sense that some, you know, portion of the public would see this

0:12:21differently and it's not necessarily unreasonable. People, you know, I mean, it gets to the root

0:12:27of the real word terrorism, not the politicized one that is thrown about, but the real word,

0:12:32you know, that strikes terror in people. And when you're terrorized, you know, you have

0:12:36a reaction. You're actually not, if you are terrorized, then you don't really, you're

0:12:42like, "I'm cool. I'm scared out of my mind, but I'm cool." You're, you know, you're not

0:12:45hooked.

0:12:46There's something wrong with you.

0:12:47Yeah, definitely.

0:12:48[laughter]

0:12:49There's like evolutionary reasons why when you encounter a terrifying situation that

0:12:57your body, you know, reacts in a very quick and decided way.

0:13:03You know, I find this argument about, I mean, it's an interesting argument about the idea

0:13:08that where this debate should take place.

0:13:10And it's just, you know, to put it into simple terms for stupid people like me, I

0:13:16not seen the most recent Mission Impossible movie, and I just started watching it this afternoon,

0:13:22and then this came out, which is kind of funny because in the very beginning, they just banned

0:13:28the IMF, you know, the Impossible Mission Force, which is a completely unregulated organization

0:13:36that acts without any accountability whatsoever. And we're supposed to, you know, in watching the

0:13:44movie that I'm kind of root for the people who have absolutely no

0:13:48accountability yeah but even there even with the IMF and I like that movie it's

0:13:52a rogue nation right this is the name right I actually enjoyed that very much

0:13:56I thought it was it's it's funny I don't want to do any spoilers but there's

0:14:00actually a whole bunch of parallels to specter it's almost uncanny how similar

0:14:05the two movies are like the length to which you could draw you know create a

0:14:11what do they call those, summaries? You know like, you know like when you on Netflix and

0:14:17they give you like the quick summary. Oh yeah. Like a half a review and half of a quick plot

0:14:21summary. Like you could go, you could go pretty far into detail and have it apply just as

0:14:26well to, to Rogue Nation as Spectre. I find that Rogue Nation was by far the better movie.

0:14:32That's my understanding. I have not seen, I've not seen Spectre yet. That is a subject

0:14:36first and different episode of the show. Yes, that's a different episode. I think it's

0:14:39But one difference is, at least with IMF, like, you know, Ethan Hunt would break into Apple,

0:14:45and he would write the code himself, you know.

0:14:49Benji would write the code.

0:14:53Oh yeah, Benji would write the code. But Ethan would break in, and then he'd have glasses,

0:14:56you know, so that Benji could see what he's saying, and he would steal Apple's signing key,

0:15:02and then, you know, but they would do all the work themselves, and they would do so knowing

0:15:07they're breaking the law to do it right and they would you know it it's still different from this

0:15:13which is really of this sort of compulsory we're going to make you do what we would we tell you to

0:15:18do even though you say we absolutely positive we would never what you're asking us to do is

0:15:22something we would never do yeah yeah i mean and it seems to me like there may be i don't know i mean

0:15:30somebody like rich mughal would have a better idea than i would but like there may be a way that

0:15:34Somebody super smart could do that

0:15:36And but that's not really what the point is here that the point is to create legal precedent, right? I

0:15:42Know they're not even they're not even trying in the last week. I am

0:15:46One of the things that's come up as this has gone on is is more and more about how

0:15:54There's no way that Apple could create this and then destroy it

0:16:00Well, I mean technically it's possible that they could create this use it once and then erase all you know traces of it and start over

0:16:07But for any kind of any any case where they would need to show it in court

0:16:13It has to be preserved

0:16:15You can't have evidence that was generated using a tool that you've then destroyed because the defense has a right to inspect the tool

0:16:21It I know that again this slippery slope phrase

0:16:26It's like you hear it over and over and over again and it starts to lose meaning

0:16:29but I really feel like it's perfectly apt here,

0:16:31that you start down this path and it just leads,

0:16:33and you don't even know where it's gonna wind up.

0:16:36But the fact that you have to preserve tools

0:16:38that are used to generate evidence in a criminal case is,

0:16:41you know, and rightly so, that's the way it should be,

0:16:44but it just shows that there's no way

0:16:47that they could create this and destroy it.

0:16:49- Yeah.

0:16:50- It's one of the ways that the San Bernardino case

0:16:52is a perfect storm, 'cause I really don't think

0:16:54there is any kind of criminal case going on,

0:16:56because the two suspects are dead.

0:16:58I mean, so.

0:16:59- Yeah, right, what exactly?

0:17:01I mean, they're not prosecuting anybody.

0:17:02- But--

0:17:04- They're looking for more people to prosecute.

0:17:05- But what if they do find a text message on the phone

0:17:10and it's to somebody else, and they're like,

0:17:12"Well, we're gonna prosecute this guy."

0:17:13Well, now there is a lawsuit,

0:17:15and the way that they found the guy was using this tool.

0:17:18So even if there's no criminal case

0:17:19against the two shooters,

0:17:21the whole point of wanting to look at the phone

0:17:26on a surface is that they're looking for anybody else

0:17:29who they might have been conspiring with.

0:17:31- Right.

0:17:32- What else is going on with this phone thing?

0:17:37- A lot of bad commentary.

0:17:40(laughing)

0:17:42- I do find that, and again, I guess it's,

0:17:47well, one of the things that's interesting about it,

0:17:50I'll say this, one of the things that's interesting about it

0:17:52is that it doesn't fall neatly

0:17:54on the left-right political divide.

0:17:56And in general, the political right

0:18:00is a little bit more friendly to law enforcement,

0:18:02and the left is more friendly,

0:18:05or more in favor of civil rights and civil liberties.

0:18:10So the ACLU is perceived, probably correctly so,

0:18:14as a left-leaning organization.

0:18:18And so in some sense, this is definitely about,

0:18:22absolutely about civil liberties. That's Apple's entire defense, really. That if

0:18:29you would predict there's any kind of left-right split, it would be, you know,

0:18:33Democrats and left-leaning people siding with Apple and Republicans and

0:18:36conservatives siding with... But that's a really broad

0:18:41generalization, and a lot of conservatives are very libertarian-minded

0:18:47and are suspicious of government. I bet those guys are those guys that

0:18:52took that took over that land in Portland probably or opposed to the FBI.

0:18:57It wasn't in Portland.

0:18:59It was Oregon. It wasn't Portland.

0:19:02Did I say Portland? I meant Oregon. Whatever it is.

0:19:05That would be pretty funny though.

0:19:08Occupy Portland.

0:19:09Occupy like a hipster coffee shop.

0:19:12Really a really nice Thai restaurant.

0:19:18Take over a food truck.

0:19:22We can't get rid of these guys.

0:19:25But they keep buying our expensive donuts.

0:19:28Really great sneakers.

0:19:29No, but I've seen an awful lot of people

0:19:34who I follow on Twitter for other political reasons who

0:19:37are-- and ordinarily would be on a Republican conservative side

0:19:41and are very much in favor of Apple in this regard.

0:19:45And I've also seen a lot of them--

0:19:48I see the similarities.

0:19:49I almost don't want to open the door on this.

0:19:51but I've seen a lot, on conservatives,

0:19:53I've seen a lot of them compare it to gun ownership

0:19:57and gun control legislation.

0:20:02And I feel like that breaks down pretty quickly,

0:20:05but at the top level, I do kinda see

0:20:08what they're getting at, that there's this argument

0:20:09that the Second Amendment, at a very, very high level,

0:20:11that if you read it, it says it's some kind of protection

0:20:15against the government, that you can protect yourself,

0:20:20and that that's what encryption is, that you can have this device where you protect the

0:20:24data yourself and you have a right to do this as an individual.

0:20:26So I kind of see it.

0:20:27It breaks, to me it breaks down very quickly because gun legislate, encryption is binary.

0:20:33Your stuff is either encrypted securely or it's not encrypted securely, yes or no.

0:20:38And yes, there's different strengths to, you know, you get greater and greater key lengths

0:20:42and different algorithms and stuff like that.

0:20:44So I'm not saying all encryption is equivalent, but it's either securely encrypted or not,

0:20:48whereas gun ownership is a, or gun legislation,

0:20:52in terms of which guns you can buy,

0:20:54is clearly there's a spectrum.

0:20:56And everybody agrees.

0:20:57This is one of those things that, to me,

0:20:58drives me nuts about,

0:20:59when you talk about gun control legislation,

0:21:01is that everybody seems to agree,

0:21:02even if the hardest of the hardliners

0:21:05on the Second Amendment,

0:21:06that, you know, normal civilians shouldn't be able

0:21:10to buy surface-to-air missiles to shoot down jetliners.

0:21:13You know, that somewhere, everybody's willing to draw a line

0:21:15that these arms are too powerful,

0:21:18that the debate is where that line should be drawn.

0:21:22But again, and I'm sure this is one of those topics where I'm sure there are people who

0:21:25listen to the show.

0:21:26In fact, I know a couple of friends who listen to the show who are staunch advocates of gun

0:21:33ownership rights.

0:21:35But I do see the connection, and I suspect, though, that those type of listeners, people

0:21:39who can bear to listen to my show and the small doses of politics I drop into it, but

0:21:44our staunch Second Amendment advocates, I guarantee you those listeners are on Apple's side in this.

0:21:49Yeah. So I do think it makes for an interesting public debate.

0:21:52Yeah. The problem is that there's sadly not enough representation of those views

0:22:00in politics, really. Because most of the candidates have come out strongly in favor of the FBI.

0:22:08or if they're not strongly in favor of the FBI like our man Trump, what's Trump say?

0:22:15Just open the damn phone. Just open the damn phone. Just open it up. It's easy.

0:22:20The thing that's a little frustrating is that the other side is kind of getting involved.

0:22:29Their take is more or less wishful thinking. Like let's put smart people in a room and, you know,

0:22:35from law enforcement and from these great American tech companies and I'm sure they'll come up with

0:22:39something that will keep everybody's data completely safe and secure and will let the

0:22:46FBI look at it whenever they want to. Nothing bad has ever come out of a smoke-filled room.

0:22:51Except maybe the smoke. This one that you sent me, I didn't see this. I guess because it

0:23:02came out yesterday. I didn't even know that there was a Sunday Wall Street Journal. Maybe it came

0:23:06out in the newspaper today and it just has the yesterday's dateline. By L. Gordon,

0:23:10L. Gordon Kravitz. Now this sounds like a made-up name.

0:23:15He used to be the publisher of the journal, apparently. But I had not really heard of him

0:23:24before this piece. But number one, if you're a conservative and you go by first initial

0:23:30Gordon something. Don't. Stop it. And his first name is Lewis. It's not like it's

0:23:38Levonsky or something. I mean it's not like some long or complicated or name that he would have

0:23:45gotten teased about. L. Gordon Liddy. Yeah. Like this is a guy, he's probably about our age, so he's

0:23:52doing it on purpose. Right, like he's a guy who looked at G. Gordon Liddy and was like, "Hey,

0:23:56my middle name's Gordon. I'm gonna be cool. It's important to have role models. I'm gonna be cool

0:24:03like a political hack who did Time for Nixon and became a, after we got out, became a right-wing

0:24:10radio kook. Right. How would you summarize his uh his headline is "Apple's Rotten Core" so he went

0:24:19there he went to the... Well he spends a lot of time talking about, he starts out by sort of

0:24:25trying to make it seem like Apple's argument is all about whether it's difficult to do or not,

0:24:29and tries to make it seem like Apple just doesn't want to do it because they're saying it's hard,

0:24:35when that's really not the situation at all. And at some point he says that,

0:24:43he says, let me see if I can find the quote, "Apple engineers have a..." I can't find it,

0:24:53But he says that Apple engineers have basically admitted that it could only apply to this one phone.

0:24:59Without linking to anything.

0:25:04For Apple at first claim, this is a quote, that this work would affect millions of customers.

0:25:11Now its engineers admit code can apply to a specific iPhone.

0:25:14Which Apple has never said.

0:25:17Well, they could make an instance of the OS that only applies to one phone, but it's, you know,

0:25:26at this point you're starting to talk, it's like talking copy protection, you know, with video

0:25:30games and apps, you know, where you, once you have a version of the OS that has a statement that says

0:25:37if the device ID equals this exact device ID, then go ahead and, you know, let them enter as

0:25:45as many passcodes as they want, then somebody who illicitly obtained a copy of the OS can

0:25:50break into a debugger and just say, "Why don't we just skip that if check?" And again, I

0:25:56realized, and I don't, I'm not going to start a computer science podcast, I realized that

0:26:00there are ways to obfuscate that code so that it's not that easy to identify when you break

0:26:07into the debugger. But on the other hand, I'll go back to my analogy of software copy

0:26:11protection where you can't beat it eventually. I mean, if the, you know, the

0:26:17whatever checks and that, you know, most apps and games that are serious about it

0:26:21don't just have an if serial number equals legit, do, you know, go ahead and

0:26:25play the game. I mean, I try to make it more complicated than that, but, you know,

0:26:28anybody who's ever tried to, you know, investigate it, how much pirated

0:26:33software is out floating around the world and always has been, will realize

0:26:36that there's always ways around it. And it's the idea that there'd be this

0:26:41version. I'm gonna go with this analogy. It's not that bad. It's sort of like they're asking

0:26:45them to make a game that, you know, but we'll make sure we're the only ones with the serial number.

0:26:49But then anybody could crack it and now everybody's got a, you know, phone cracking thing.

0:26:55He also said, "When Apple refused the court order, Apple defenders claimed it was impossible

0:27:01to unlock the phone." Now, see, nobody said that. I don't. Nobody said that. Nobody said that.

0:27:07I quoted a thing today where, and maybe I even went the wrong way, but that somebody, you know,

0:27:13there was this Washington Post story on the thing and they were like, somebody was trying to give

0:27:17a quote like, "Bob, both sides are kind of liars." A former Justice Department official, Jennifer

0:27:22Daskow, said both sides are overstating her argument. She said, "The government is wrong to

0:27:26say this is just about one case. On the other hand, it is wrong to say that if Apple loses this case,

0:27:31there's absolutely no limits to what the government can order a company to do.

0:27:35And on during Fireball, I said, "Well, the first part is totally true. The government really is

0:27:41being disingenuous about this applying to just one phone." And I said that nobody,

0:27:47especially not Apple, is using words like "absolutely no limits" on what the government

0:27:50can order a company to do. A couple of people emailed and said, "Well, actually Apple's

0:27:53order doesn't quite say that exactly, but they do say that there's no end to the limit." And

0:27:58like you said with the the other one the orenstein one that you know what or whatever else or some

0:28:04would you say said the you know this could lead to the conclusion that the government could order

0:28:07you to kill people that was yeah that was right that you know actually i mean that was that was

0:28:12not necessarily you know that was not saying that apple i mean it was basically that was

0:28:16that was a legal interpretation of the um this interpretation that all ritz act basically they

0:28:21they were saying that that they were saying that the written law did not apply and so they needed

0:28:28to invoke the all ritz act act and I think Gorenstein was saying no there's actually a

0:28:34law on the books about this and you can't just ignore that and invoke the all ritz act because

0:28:38if you start doing that then you can do anything you want that you know that's this is exactly what

0:28:42the rule of law is about that right we make these rules we have a general agreement as to what words

0:28:49mean and therefore you you you follow the law I've seen some people and and

0:29:03and you know I don't even know if it's worth I don't know I I feel like

0:29:07listeners at the show are smart they're not going this way but on Twitter there

0:29:10have been some people who've approached me with the well how would I feel if one

0:29:14my family members had been killed by these people. Did you see the one that somebody had quoted? No,

0:29:21I don't think. That's the one that said, "How would Tim Cook feel if his wife had been murdered?"

0:29:28Oh no!

0:29:32There's a couple problems with that statement. He'd be very surprised.

0:29:42Yeah, I think surprise would probably be his first reaction.

0:29:44I think his first reaction would be...

0:29:46The police called him and said,

0:29:48"Mr. Cook, we have terrible news. Your wife has been murdered."

0:29:52[laughter]

0:29:54Say what now?

0:29:56That would be something.

0:29:58But this is why we don't have juries made up of the family members of the victim.

0:30:05I sympathize. I really do.

0:30:07And I totally agree with Apple's emphasis,

0:30:11not just on PR, but I think they really mean it.

0:30:13That every time they talk about this or publish something,

0:30:15they say something right up front

0:30:16about the tremendous sympathy they have

0:30:19for the families of the victims of this incident,

0:30:22and every incident, and that they cannot abide terrorism.

0:30:25It's the trade-off.

0:30:27There is no perfect way to cut this off.

0:30:30You can either sacrifice some law enforcement

0:30:35law enforcement opportunities to find clues

0:30:40and protect privacy and civil liberties for everybody,

0:30:45or not, but that's the trade-off that our system

0:30:50and our founders made 200 and whatever years ago.

0:30:54- Yeah, and as a matter of fact,

0:30:57one of the relatives of one of the victims

0:31:00has actually sided with Apple.

0:31:02- I'm not surprised, 'cause, you know.

0:31:04Yeah, I mean, of course there's gonna be people on both sides, right?

0:31:07I mean, there's gonna be people who desperately want Apple to unlock the phone,

0:31:11and then there's gonna be people who want it the other way.

0:31:13Right, with 14 victims, 14 dead, and 22 others who were seriously injured,

0:31:18you're gonna find people who were directly involved on all sides of it.

0:31:23Yeah.

0:31:24It is hard, but it's, again, this is, you know, and it's...

0:31:27I'm trying not to get angry at the FBI for doing it, and privately I guess I would,

0:31:33at least professionally here on this very professional show, I won't. But it's

0:31:37it's infuriating that people who, and clearly people who work in the Justice Department,

0:31:43in the FBI, are dispassionate about this. And they understand civil liberties. I mean,

0:31:48as far as I think, I don't know if it's still the case, but I think that for most,

0:31:53just about every FBI agent, unless you're some kind of specialist, is you have to have a law

0:31:59degree. FBI agents are not like your local police department. These guys and women, these

0:32:10men and women are legal experts. They're lawyers.

0:32:13Well, they're not all lawyers.

0:32:14Well, a lot of them are. I think most of them are.

0:32:17A lot of them are, yeah.

0:32:18I think it's the standard way to become an FBI agent is to be a lawyer. I think you could

0:32:22be Dana Scully and be a medical doctor.

0:32:24think a lot of well but a lot of them do come from law enforcement or or the and

0:32:28I don't think that's not I don't think it's a situation where they go from law

0:32:30enforcement to lead to law school and then to the FBI I think I mean you have

0:32:34to be I think you just you have to well they're informed it's not easy I'm not

0:32:37saying it's easy but I'm but I don't believe you have to have like a specific

0:32:40you don't have to be a whatever JT what I'm saying though is that they they know

0:32:45what they're doing you know they know that the legal argument you don't have

0:32:48be Amy Gromer's I'm saying. There's the cynicism involved to make these the

0:32:56San Bernardino family members who are siding with them publicly to use that to

0:33:02their advantage is it's easy to it could get me worked up if I really think about

0:33:08it mm-hmm yeah I just expect better I don't know about well I guess that's my

0:33:17That's the problem that I expect better from today's US federal government.

0:33:23I should, maybe I should be, I should have a disclosure that my wife is a defense investigator.

0:33:32So I guess in my family, we come at it from a certain perspective.

0:33:37perspective and and you know some of that is born of the experience of the

0:33:43cases that she's been involved with over the years right and seeing some of the

0:33:48shenanigans and I mean yeah and is almost whitewash of some of the stuff

0:33:52that did you know exactly yeah similar thing here where my wife was a defense

0:33:58attorney and so we're perfect we're perfect to have a discussion totally unbiased

0:34:05yeah we have all sides of the debate we have a guy named john whose wife works in criminal

0:34:14investigations and we have a guy named john whose wife worked in uh criminal legal defense

0:34:20yeah right used to work see your wife used to work right and now right exactly so that's the

0:34:26difference. That's the difference. Both sides of the aisle. From two guys named John.

0:34:30With no formal training in any of them. Who like apple. Who like apple.

0:34:36Pretend that because they read the all Ritz Act that they know what the hell is going on.

0:34:40I'm curious how this is going to play out. I'm also curious, I guess we should take a break and

0:34:46I should talk about one of our friendly sponsors, but when we come back, I'm curious how this is

0:34:52played out is going to play out in Congress and I'm not even sure I got the

0:34:57dates all mixed up so I don't know maybe you can figure this out afterwards but

0:35:02let me take a break though and thank longtime sponsor of the show our good

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0:37:33You're nuts

0:37:37Or pal Peter Cohen just went to work for black back. You almost said it black black base

0:37:42I know I know I know you if you have practiced you you I don't even know how you do that, but

0:37:48But good for you

0:37:53So years ago, I did a podcast right?

0:37:55I did could not say back blaze and I said black blades over and over and over again

0:38:00And so yeah our friend it's very it's not easy

0:38:03My friend Yev who's like their marketing guy went a listen to the show and he went over to you know

0:38:09domain name register and he registered black blaze

0:38:12And for that's definitely that that's definitely the salute. Yeah

0:38:16It's like I really like that. I wish every time I screwed up a sponsorship read that they would just do it. Yeah, I didn't just

0:38:23That one I understand pixel mature. I still don't understand

0:38:32Just I don't know I don't know how you would read that I

0:38:34Guess my initial guess was pixel mater, but then I thought well, maybe that's wrong and they were there. You know they're

0:38:41European they don't even speak English right so I made a guess yeah

0:38:45Yeah, I think they're aren't they either. Yeah, they're Germans. Yeah, so pixel metal yeah

0:38:50Yeah, it's on the tour. It's good

0:38:53So

0:38:59It's one of those things where it's like if you don't announce if a tree

0:39:03If a tree was never announced

0:39:05And then it doesn't grow out of the ground doesn't make a sound

0:39:09So if Apple never announced a date for a March event, can the date be moved?

0:39:14No, not I say no no, no, I mean if you're if you're deciding

0:39:21when you're gonna have your birthday party and

0:39:24You're kind of thinking about having it on

0:39:28the 15th and you move it to the 21st. That's right until the invitations go out as a mean

0:39:33You know in your mind you moved it, right?

0:39:36But it's you know, we shouldn't we shouldn't all be talking about it being right and the same goes for

0:39:40Changing the name of the phone that hasn't been announced yet from the iPhone 5 SE to the iPhone SE

0:39:47They changed the name of the phone

0:39:49But anyway, that's a lot of scratch. That's a lot of scratching off the back of the couple of weeks ago

0:39:55A couple of weeks ago it leaked through the usual sources that Apple was planning a March

0:40:02event for this new 4-inch iPhone and the new iPad.

0:40:09I guess the rumors say no major updates to the watch, not like the second generation

0:40:15Apple watch, but new bands.

0:40:18New bands.

0:40:19I don't know what else.

0:40:20that it was going to be Tuesday, March 15th.

0:40:22And then I guess it was over the weekend, was it Sunday?

0:40:26I think it came out, I know it was over the weekend.

0:40:28But Kara Swisher at Recode broke the story actually.

0:40:32And then John Petchkowski,

0:40:33who usually gets those date things first,

0:40:35he's at Buzzfeed now,

0:40:36it was about an hour later and said so too.

0:40:40And that nope, it's going to be Monday, March 21st.

0:40:45So it's not on a Tuesday, it's on a Monday.

0:40:48And which sucked for me

0:40:50Because I tried to do the right thing. So I don't know I would let me just emphasize this right now

0:40:55I have no idea nobody at Apple

0:40:58Officially or unofficially has given me any indication of when this event is and on the other hand

0:41:05I've never asked and I would guess that at some point in the next week or two

0:41:09I'll get an email with an invitation and it'll say please join us at town hall on

0:41:14Whatever date but I tried to be smart and based on the leak I booked I booked airfare

0:41:19So I had airfare for the original date. Oh

0:41:22You booked here for that I booked airfare then

0:41:28Now I always stay I expect and again, I don't know I just take guesses on these things

0:41:34I don't know but I fly out. I always stay in San Francisco

0:41:38even if I know even if I know for a fact that the event is going to be in Cupertino because

0:41:44Really? There's not much to do down there. You don't like the days in

0:41:48I forget where I stayed the one time. When I went out for that Mercedes thing I talked about a while ago.

0:41:53It was a very nice hotel. It was fine, but it's really, you could be, I mean, there's just nothing going on.

0:42:00And I have friends in San Francisco, so it's less, it's more fun and it's a better trip if I just bite the bullet and wake up and somehow find a ride from San Francisco to Cupertino in the morning for the event than the other way around, than to try to fulfill.

0:42:14What is that ride? Is it a half hour or 45 minutes?

0:42:16her 45 minutes? Oh, it really varies by traffic. It's probably more like an hour, and I think

0:42:21you got it. You really want to kind of play it. I never do the driving, though, so I'm actually not

0:42:26sure. I think if you hit good traffic and you can get in the passing lane, you can make it in

0:42:3240 minutes, maybe. 40 minutes to an hour, and if you hit traffic, it's good luck. But I have

0:42:38friends. Again, a friend of the show, Panzerino, is coming in for the same event, and he's going

0:42:43going to have a car, so I'll just hitch a ride with him.

0:42:46I mean, you know this, right?

0:42:50Part of the rules, if you want to be on the talk show,

0:42:52is if I ever need a ride, you--

0:42:54[LAUGHTER]

0:42:57I got-- I'm out.

0:42:58I don't take advantage of it very often.

0:43:00I'm not--

0:43:01Bloop, bloop, bloop.

0:43:02You can verify.

0:43:03You've been on the show a lot of times,

0:43:04and I've never once called you and said, hey, Molt,

0:43:06I'm at the airport.

0:43:08I need a ride.

0:43:09No, I've given a ride to Cufasos.

0:43:11Yeah, probably on my credit.

0:43:12[laughter]

0:43:14That's what I'm thinking, right? I think that defraes some of my, uh...

0:43:18No, so anyway, I had already booked my airfare, and so...

0:43:22But I knew what I was getting into. I'm not mad. I don't, I, you know, I feel like I'd sort of lost a bet, but, uh, I knew it was a bet.

0:43:30I just thought, though, in times past, they give out the official invitation so late that if you book, only when you get, wake up in the morning and find the email that says,

0:43:40that says, "Here's the official invitation. We're having a thing," you end up paying a

0:43:44lot more for airfare than if you book it in advance. And so I took the gamble to try to

0:43:49save some money.

0:43:51It turns out I'm actually going to... This is the episode where I talk about the accounting

0:43:55of running during fireball. Turns out though, I had to pay two...

0:43:58So that's why you had me on.

0:43:59Right. I had to pay a $200 change fee for both legs of the flight. So there you think,

0:44:06"Well, now you're out 400 bucks." And guess what? This is shocking. This is really...

0:44:09I know this is going to shock you.

0:44:11American Airlines, in addition to the $200 change

0:44:14fee for each leg of the fight, they charge you tax and service

0:44:17fees on top of that.

0:44:19What?

0:44:19For the change fees.

0:44:22So it's--

0:44:23Well, first of all, it's horrible

0:44:25that you have to fly American Airlines.

0:44:27Oh my god.

0:44:27Don't even get me started on it.

0:44:30That's--

0:44:31Do you know the story?

0:44:32That's really the worst part of the whole story,

0:44:34regardless of the fees.

0:44:37But that's terrible.

0:44:39Well, Philly, long story short, Philly used to be dominated by US Air.

0:44:42There was our that's where we're like the biggest US Air hub. And so US Air

0:44:48acquired American Airlines. So it's US Air that bought American.

0:44:52Oh, it was the other way around.

0:44:54No, but they kept the American name because it's a better name.

0:44:56Okay, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

0:44:59And maybe American even has more flights. American might have been the bigger

0:45:03airline, but they were less profitable. American was losing money. And so US Air

0:45:06bought them and rebranded the whole company as American. It was sort of a mess for about

0:45:14eight months where they were like, you'd be like going through like kiosks and it'd be

0:45:20like an American desk and a US air desk and you show up at the US air desk because you

0:45:23have a US air ticket and they're like, go to American and it's like, all right, I'll

0:45:26go to American. And they're like, yeah, that's an American flight now. But anyway, they charge

0:45:33you a service fee on top of the change fee. That's like it's like is it run by ticket

0:45:40master exactly wait let me see there here's your here's your convenience fee how much

0:45:47did I pay for this think about how many how many airlines you've flown over the years

0:45:51that are just gone now I mean it's unbelievable it's like the tech it's kind of like the tech

0:45:56industry for the most part I really kind of like there's a few that have stuck around

0:45:59for a long period of time, and then there's a crap ton that came and went.

0:46:03Yeah, I can't even think of something.

0:46:05I don't think I ever--

0:46:07before my time, I never flew TWA.

0:46:10I flew TWA.

0:46:11See, that's like a childhood memory, though.

0:46:15TWA reminds me of flying where you got cloth napkins,

0:46:21and you got silverware in a plastic bag, and you had--

0:46:26your dinner was like a like um Salisbury steak with a you know and you had like a there was

0:46:33like a dessert and a salad I mean there were like four little tray little like holder things

0:46:39on your tray and the flight attendants were all in uniform you know like real like they

0:46:45had hats on and those were the days and they were and and there was also a smoking section

0:46:54drawback there was a smoking section but you were used to it back then taxes and

0:47:00carrier imposed fees 116 dollars I don't know I it's hard to tell from the

0:47:05receipt I don't know they might have charged me yeah but anyway $400 plus the

0:47:10chances and fees I'm actually going to save money on the trip though because

0:47:15the hotels are so much cheaper in San Francisco the next week because the

0:47:19initial date that March 15th week is coincides with the game developer

0:47:23conference in San Francisco GDC. And I my hotel was like $5,000 a

0:47:29night. It was like so much that I was really worried about Amy

0:47:34looking at the MX like thinking that I got a room at the you

0:47:37know, the Four Seasons or the Ritz Carlton or something. It's

0:47:40like all of the standard hotels that you know, we've stayed at

0:47:43for years and years and years. And all these things are all

0:47:46sold out because all the GDC is just insane. Like because Apple

0:47:50has done this before they've had mid March events, and it's

0:47:52coincided with GDC before. And it's just insane, John. I mean, it's like, when you get used

0:47:59to being there for like WWDC or Macworld or something like that, it's like, "Oh, yeah,

0:48:03this is a crowd. There's, you know, thousands of people and I see a lot of friends." GDC

0:48:07is like 75,000 people or something like that. And it is like, it's just absolutely nuts.

0:48:13So anyway, I'm actually saving money. So my thanks to Apple for...

0:48:15And they're all wearing fedoras too.

0:48:18I'm...

0:48:19I'm sorry, some of my best friends are game developers, so please, please, that's just

0:48:27a joke.

0:48:28Okay.

0:48:29Don't send letters.

0:48:30I was a little…

0:48:31I was like, "Hmm, Monday?

0:48:33Why would they move it to a Monday?"

0:48:34And it turns out last year's event was on a Monday too, the mid-March event.

0:48:38And that's the one that I missed because my eyeball would have exploded if I got it

0:48:44on a point.

0:48:46So I missed that one, but it was on a Monday.

0:48:49We were talking about you doing a road trip.

0:48:51Right.

0:48:53It was under consideration that maybe I would just

0:48:55drive cross-country.

0:48:57No, but--

0:48:58But then the altitude was still a problem.

0:49:01Yeah, it was actually--

0:49:02it was like getting on an airplane is like, oh my--

0:49:05You needed to stay at sea level.

0:49:06No, I needed to stay at whatever sea level I was at.

0:49:09Yeah, right.

0:49:10So I need to stay at Philadelphia Sea,

0:49:12which is very close.

0:49:13Well, I think you could have gone lower, right?

0:49:15I don't--

0:49:16You can go lower.

0:49:17I guess so.

0:49:18Yeah, I guess.

0:49:19You don't want to go higher.

0:49:20Well, maybe not.

0:49:22Maybe not.

0:49:23Maybe you could.

0:49:24It would implode if you went lower.

0:49:25It would explode if you went higher.

0:49:26Yeah.

0:49:27But the train ride from Philly to New York City was fine because it doesn't go up, doesn't

0:49:31go down.

0:49:32It's just New Jersey.

0:49:34But going through the Rockies would have been a problem.

0:49:40Going on an airplane was like, "Oh my God, your eyeball will explode and it'll be excruciatingly

0:49:44painful."

0:49:45like going up in elevation was like maybe nothing will happen but you know

0:49:51you don't really want to take a chance yeah right well I mean anybody anybody

0:49:55who's flown with a cold knows something about that right I mean you know the

0:50:00effect that happens if you've flown with a cold which is horrible I mean you it's

0:50:05just like you're in constant pain I've in the same way that like the first time

0:50:11you've ever experimented with margaritas in your early 20s and then you wake up and you say it was

0:50:17it was it was my eyes when you when you the first time you've ever told yourself i'm never drinking

0:50:22again uh it's that's what flying with a cold is like i i've only done it i've always gotten lucky

0:50:30in my life i don't get sick that much i'm pretty healthy and i've only i think i can only remember

0:50:34a handful of times. But I remember one time, man, my sinuses, it just felt like the dentist

0:50:41was going up through my eye to get to my teeth. For the whole four-hour flight.

0:50:50Well, Jonas goes to a fancy school, right? So he doesn't bring a cold home.

0:50:56Oh, you got to be kidding me.

0:50:58Hank goes to public school, so we get cold.

0:51:01I don't think there's any difference at all whatsoever. Kids are disgusting. They're all

0:51:06disgusting. There's absolutely no... They really are.

0:51:09No, there's no difference. Jonas is pretty healthy though. I think he got it from Amy.

0:51:14He's even healthier than I am, I think. But when he was kindergarten and first grade,

0:51:20man, we were all getting sick all the time. Yeah.

0:51:23Terrible. Yeah.

0:51:23Anyway, I thought that the Monday date was weird. Maybe they wanted Monday anyway,

0:51:29But the old rumor was for Tuesday, but it turns out that there's like a congressional

0:51:33This is a very long talk show digression turns out that there is a a a a some kind of thing in Washington

0:51:40DC on Tuesday the 22nd involving the Apple FBI thing and so I think that they

0:51:46Some kind of right but they you know don't want to have product in

0:51:50Introduction the same day as that but now I saw today that Bruce Sewell is testifying tomorrow in DC

0:51:57So maybe there's like two different things. I'm not quite sure what's going on there, but that there's a it just yeah

0:52:02There are there are two different things. So what do you know what it is? Like tomorrow? He says to me

0:52:06I'm not sure what the difference is. I I

0:52:08Read both of them, but I can't I can't think of what the difference is

0:52:12Maybe the 22nd is an actual hearing or something. I don't know. Yeah, I think he's just yeah, maybe he's just I

0:52:20Don't think his thing is necessarily public, but I'm not positive

0:52:26Let's do it. And then the other the other thing is public is this like in front of Congress, right? Yeah, that's tomorrow

0:52:32Which seems like a real shit show. Oh, the public one is the public was taken public

0:52:37Oh, okay. It's the one that he already released an opening statement for

0:52:40Okay

0:52:42That's the one where you're just parading before some grandstanding

0:52:46Congress people and you just have to sit there and listen to them yell at you yell at you sure or say whatever they want to

0:52:52say

0:52:53Right. I think that I think it's gonna be a difficult day to be Bruce Swoll tomorrow

0:52:58Tim Cook's done it cook has done it like on the I remember like remember he'd let a on the taxes then

0:53:07Which I think is is

0:53:10At least at least the people who disagree with apples perspective on that

0:53:16I think that they actually have a leg to stand on in terms and and you know

0:53:21Not that Apple is the people that people who disagree with Apple have a like yeah

0:53:25They're the people who say you should be you should repatriate the money and pay your taxes that there's some

0:53:30Some sense to the argument. It's not you're not arguing like a fantasy thing, but I

0:53:36Don't know. I mean I think in a way

0:53:38They are I mean, I think what the argument about the the iPhone is what the law right exactly and there's whereas whereas

0:53:48Because that's not as ambiguous with the tax thing. They are actually complying with the

0:53:53law. It's just that the law is letting them get away with murder kind of thing.

0:53:57Right. Exactly. Tax murder. Right.

0:54:00Tax murder. Right. Yeah.

0:54:02Right. Well, we'll collect all the taxes. The only way we wouldn't collect the taxes

0:54:07would be if some crazy company wanted to, I don't know, put $100 billion in an offshore

0:54:11account in Ireland. I mean, who's going to keep $100 billion in a—oh.

0:54:15do we not how do we not think of that oh oh that's because people in business

0:54:22wrote the tax law I can't help but think though that Apple's not happy about and

0:54:27who knows maybe this March 22nd thing with Bruce will in DC will come and go

0:54:31and and people will be tired of the whole FBI argument by them but I can't

0:54:34help but think that whatever caused them to change their date for this event it's

0:54:39not good news because I think even though it's a day before I think they'd

0:54:42rather have like a whole week of, I don't know what you call it, sunshine, you know,

0:54:46where the news about Apple is this new iPhone and the new iPad, and maybe get

0:54:53people to stop talking about the FBI thing for a week and concentrate on the

0:54:56products, whereas now they've got 24 hours. Well, yeah, or maybe they think that

0:55:01whatever they're announcing is gonna be good enough that they're gonna

0:55:05overshadow it a little bit, or at least there's a chance of that. Well, I just

0:55:08think you can't, you know, like to show it's sort of like a show must go on

0:55:11situation. You know, it is what it is and they obviously weren't prepared for this.

0:55:16I mean, one thing we know about this whole FBI thing is that Apple was taken

0:55:20by surprise. I mean, Tim Cook said on ABC that he found out about it after the

0:55:25press did. The press was notified about it before Apple was, which is, again, not

0:55:30the FBI's proudest moment in my opinion. But, you know, with somebody who is, you

0:55:34know, Apple who is not a criminal suspect, it's not like, it's not like when you,

0:55:40When Tim Cook, you know, acts as a little bit upset, I think rightly so, that Apple

0:55:45found out about it through the press. It's not like they're the subject of a

0:55:48criminal investigation. They're supposedly Apple, you know, trying to

0:55:51partner with the FBI to do the best they can in this situation.

0:55:56They kind of got publicly sandbagged.

0:56:00So, we want to talk about guesses for... Yeah, maybe. Why don't I take a break, though,

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0:58:53Yeah, so prediction, what do you want to do? Talk about what we expect?

0:58:57I guess.

0:59:01I don't know, I mean, you know, like, I, it sounds like

0:59:05I don't think I have anything, I

0:59:09certainly don't have any other predictions other than what it seems like, you know, what

0:59:13we already talked about, which is a smaller iPhone,

0:59:17an updated iPad, and

0:59:21Apple Watch bands and maybe, I don't know, maybe some faces or something, which I just added. I just made that up.

0:59:27Well, I'm much more interested in talking about the fact that I am probably going to get this phone.

0:59:35All right, but that's a... so we do know a lot, or we think we know a lot, thanks to Scoop Germin.

0:59:41We don't know everything though, and there's some interesting questions in there. So

0:59:47One of the things is that the rumor and that you know, there's other sources for this too including

0:59:52Who's that analyst?

0:59:56He's got good sources over in the supply chain Ming something

1:00:01Yeah, I'm too cool as back this up to that. The phone is gonna have the a9

1:00:06System on a chip maybe under clock maybe not clock quite as fast as on the iphone 6 and 6s and 6 plus but

1:00:14Same generation CPU as today's top-of-the-line iPhones. Same generation at least.

1:00:19What? But so in other words it's not like, "Hey, this is like a year-old tech phone." This is like,

1:00:26you know, "Hey, six-month-old phone." You know, it's only half year off the main cycle.

1:00:30But it won't, but it's not supposed to have 3D.

1:00:34No, it won't have 3D. The one, I guess the one flagship thing that's missing is 3D Touch. And

1:00:38who knows, maybe it'll like the iPad, maybe like the iPad Mini, and maybe it'll have the

1:00:43year-old Touch ID sensor that looks exactly the same, but it works a little slower.

1:00:49So it's slower.

1:00:50Which I actually might upgrade to that.

1:00:53No.

1:00:54Even after all of these years.

1:00:55Some people complain about that.

1:00:57I still get it. That button is so much more convenient to just wake up the phone and look

1:01:03at the lock screen. The problem is, Apple has made the lock screen so much more useful now that it

1:01:10it shows like your most recent notifications

1:01:13that I wanna see the lock screen a lot

1:01:15and they've made it impossible to get to the lock screen

1:01:17using your thumb on the touch ID button

1:01:20because it's so damn fast.

1:01:23So anyway, I wouldn't even call that a downside.

1:01:25But I'm wondering--

1:01:28- I know, I-- - I'm wondering--

1:01:30- I mean, our friend Albert complains about that too,

1:01:32but I don't, I mean, if you, anyway,

1:01:36you can tap the side, but you can use the side button

1:01:38or if you use the tip of your thumb instead of the flat part, you can get it to do what you want.

1:01:43I don't have a lot of patience for that argument.

1:01:48It's not my strongest complaint against an Apple product.

1:01:53This thing is too fast!

1:01:55My Porsche is just... it's just... this car is too fast! It's too fast!

1:02:03And good looking too! Oh my god!

1:02:06Yeah, nobody makes me look terrible. I look terrible standing next to it.

1:02:09My poor, nobody ever shuts up about how beautiful my car is. It's terrible.

1:02:14I'm curious, and this is a story thing that hasn't leaked yet, what type of

1:02:22storage capacities is it going to have? I think that it's going to have a couple of options,

1:02:27$100 a part.

1:02:30Well, at one point I had seen 16, 64, which is, I think,

1:02:35what most of them go, right?

1:02:37Well, don't they do 16, 32?

1:02:39Oh, no, 32 is the thing we've been talking about for three years.

1:02:43Right, right.

1:02:44That's the terrible thing.

1:02:45But that they won't have 120.

1:02:46They're going to do that jerky thing that the rest of them do.

1:02:4916 and 64 makes a lot of sense, I'm guessing.

1:02:53And then the other big question is, how good is the camera going to be?

1:02:57And that's the sort of thing that it's--

1:03:02Yeah.

1:03:02You know, the--

1:03:03Yeah, and I understand that that's important.

1:03:05I mean, that's important for lots of people.

1:03:07It's not important for me because I keep saying this,

1:03:10but I feel like the camera surpassed my ability

1:03:13to take a good picture like three generations ago.

1:03:15So I'm happy going back to--

1:03:18I mean, certainly if it's the 6, I'm

1:03:21perfectly happy going back to that.

1:03:22Even if it's like the 5S, I'm happy going back to that too.

1:03:25I mean, the only thing I think I would miss is 3D touch, which I have come to rely on a little bit.

1:03:31But I think for it to get a smaller phone, I will actually be willing to give that up.

1:03:36Yeah, in a way, I can't wait to see how they do this and how Apple portrays the camera.

1:03:42Like both, I'm most interested in how the camera actually is, of course,

1:03:46but I'm very interested to see how Apple talks about the camera and the ways that it's, you know,

1:03:51what's good about it and how do they position it compared to the iPhone 6s and 6s plus which by all accounts and

1:03:58But just by common sense because they're almost certainly gonna be more expensive have a superior camera. I

1:04:03Think it's gonna wind up my guess is that it's it is its own camera

1:04:09You know that it's not like they took the camera from the blank iPhone and stuck it in this that you know

1:04:15That this device is different enough from anything that's come before it that

1:04:18It's got its own camera and where it falls on the spectrum is in in some degrees

1:04:24technically measurable and in other ways is

1:04:27subjective

1:04:29Yeah, I

1:04:31mean you can take a side-by-side picture at the exact same lighting from the exact same spot and then compare the resulting files and

1:04:38Look for things like noise and you know how how you know how bright it looks in low lighting or something like that

1:04:43But in other ways, you know, it's like it's like you said a lot of ways

1:04:47It's just it it long ago surpassed most of our abilities

1:04:50You know like there when the the shot with iPhone campaign started a year ago when the best phone was the iPhone 6

1:04:55There are people who shot photos. They're way better than any photo

1:04:57I'm ever gonna take in a million years with the with the iPhone 15. You know what I mean like

1:05:03like

1:05:05Ten years from now when the cameras are absolutely amazing

1:05:08I'm never gonna take a picture as beautiful as the one that's that Apple chose to put on a billboard that were taken with the

1:05:13iPhone 6 last year. I mean, people took some amazing photos with those things.

1:05:19What's making you think that you want the phone? We've talked about that.

1:05:23Yeah, just the size. I mean, I've been unhappy with the size of the 6 and the 6S.

1:05:30All things considered, and maybe even up to, again, to bring up the year anniversary date,

1:05:36up to 13 months ago, I wouldn't hesitate. I would be waiting in line to get the 4-inch

1:05:41phone. I've got here I have one on my desk I just keep it here to make me sad. I have my iPhone.

1:05:45Yeah I have actually yeah I have my my regular I have my iPhone 5s right here and now I've got it

1:05:51in my hand and I'm in love. I love the way this device feels in my hand. My big thing sometimes

1:05:56they sometimes they pick up a four and think of man that's really nice too. I expect to really

1:06:01love the feel of this phone. My thing is with my my vision the combination of I've got one bad eye

1:06:07and then my good eye is really running into the mid 40s presbyopia like I need reading glasses

1:06:14and so the bigger size of the other one but on the other hand I keep thinking to myself

1:06:19I don't run my six in the big screen mode you know what I mean like there's the yeah

1:06:27neither neither do I and my eyesight's going to so I wonder maybe I'll be you know I'll see less

1:06:33you know, but I was always fine with that, you know, like and most of all honestly

1:06:36I'll tell you the truth most of what I read on the phone is Twitter

1:06:38So the fact that you don't see a lot at once is fine because the whole tweet is always there and you just sit there

1:06:43And flick your thumb

1:06:45Yeah, yeah

1:06:47The what the the one thing the one thing I do like about the 6s is how I mean, you know

1:06:53Apart from though, you know, we talked about the lock screen thing, but in general it's just crazy fast

1:06:57Well, and this should have the same thing, right?

1:07:00because it's got even if it's an under slightly under clocked a9 it still should be way faster

1:07:05than even the iphone 6 and i think a lot of the things that the iphone that the a9 makes feel

1:07:13fast like you just don't wait for it stuff uh it should all i would guess will be true on this new

1:07:19phone yeah and maybe yeah i mean even if it's under clocked maybe the smaller screen makes up

1:07:25for it? Yeah, exactly, because there will be fewer pixels to push. So anything that

1:07:30is graphics constrained, it's going to be easier. Everything should be easier. I'm

1:07:37just holding this phone here. And the thing that just strikes me is there's a reason

1:07:41why I never dropped one of these. And I have dropped—I haven't dropped my 6s. I've

1:07:45never dropped my 6s, but I did drop my 6 last year, twice. I had two drops and broke both

1:07:51both times.

1:07:53I have not, I have been lucky enough not to drop it.

1:07:56But I feel uneasy about it all the time.

1:07:59But this feels like the type of phone that you can, you know, you just walk around anywhere.

1:08:02You just walk around with the phone in your hand.

1:08:04You know, don't worry about it.

1:08:05It's never going to come out of your hand.

1:08:07I mean, it's, you know, I think people all, everybody has their own set of parameters

1:08:11that they want to satisfy.

1:08:12And I mean, some people would rather have a large phone and maybe not have an iPad.

1:08:18Right.

1:08:19seems like there's probably a lot of people which is maybe why the iPad isn't doing as

1:08:22well.

1:08:23I think that's a huge part of it.

1:08:24Huge part of it.

1:08:25Yeah.

1:08:26Um, I would rather have a small phone and a big iPad.

1:08:30Right.

1:08:31Yeah, I think that for some people maybe they don't buy iPads because it's like, "Eh, I've

1:08:35already got my Mac book there," or whatever I walk around with all the time.

1:08:39Um, but I definitely think that for a lot of people, I know, I know this, it's not even

1:08:44a thing, I know I've heard from them who, they email me, they write to me on Twitter,

1:08:47an awful lot of people who, especially the Plus users, who

1:08:51are like, this is my iPad.

1:08:53I read books.

1:08:55I don't need it.

1:08:56And it's so great.

1:09:00And this is an argument we've had ever since PowerBooks

1:09:03first came out.

1:09:04And it's gotten so much better over the years with Dropbox

1:09:07and stuff like that.

1:09:07But the trade-offs between having multiple devices

1:09:10versus one device, right?

1:09:12If you've got this one device, you just

1:09:13know it's already there, right?

1:09:14And for however much the cloud, you know, for Dropbox or iCloud documents and all that

1:09:19stuff has gotten easier and it continues to get easier.

1:09:23You know, an IMAP for email instead of POP for email and all these things that keep stuff

1:09:27so that you can keep multiple devices in sync.

1:09:29If you just have one device, you just know it, right?

1:09:32And you get – and it's like you almost like you get like that muscle memory.

1:09:36If you spend all of your time on one device, it's like you just get faster and faster

1:09:39and you don't even think about it.

1:09:41Yeah, it used to be a big decision point between whether you got a fast laptop or you got a

1:09:51slow laptop and a fast desktop.

1:09:53Right, right.

1:09:54Yeah.

1:09:55Yeah.

1:09:56I used to talk about that on the show in the old days, all the time.

1:09:59Yeah.

1:10:00Yeah.

1:10:01And I went back and forth, and it never was on one side.

1:10:03I've done it both ways, and the trade-offs were so complicated, and it was so hard to

1:10:10make that decision. Yeah. And I feel, I mean, for the most part now, I've just been relying on a

1:10:16fairly fast laptop, but not super fast. I mean, like, you know, I got into this problem that

1:10:23I wanted to play Firewatch and it would not play on it. It doesn't play on my laptop and I didn't

1:10:28have a PS4. So I, eventually I had to play it. I played it on my son's computer. So I had to buy,

1:10:35That was the fastest computer in the house.

1:10:37So I had to buy a PS4.

1:10:40I thought about that for a long time, and then all of a sudden it hit me,

1:10:44wait, I could use my son's computer.

1:10:46Did you like Firewatch?

1:10:48I did.

1:10:48I liked Firewatch quite a bit.

1:10:49Let's come back to it later.

1:10:50You remind me of Firewatch.

1:10:51Yeah.

1:10:52Because I don't think I've talked about it on this show.

1:10:54I talked about it with Topolski on his show,

1:10:57but I didn't talk about it here, I don't think.

1:11:00So that also brings us, though, to the iPad, the new iPad Pro,

1:11:04which is supposedly coming, that the replacement, I guess,

1:11:09or the next generation of what we now know as the iPad Air,

1:11:12Scoop Gorman says they're gonna call it the iPad Pro.

1:11:15And then just put like parentheses 9.7 inch.

1:11:19Which in addition to the fact that, you know,

1:11:23I mean, Gorman's record is pretty good

1:11:24and the closer we get, the more likely

1:11:26that the leaks are accurate.

1:11:29I think it passes the common sense test.

1:11:32Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I guess so. I mean, I don't think, I don't, it doesn't sound

1:11:37outrageous. Not that Apple hasn't ever released a product that fails the common sense test

1:11:42regarding its name. But in this case, I think it makes sense that the iPad Pro is an iPad

1:11:48that, you know, what are the features of the iPad Pro? Four speakers, or at least, you

1:11:55know, stereo speakers. I think you have to have four though, because you can, otherwise

1:11:59you can't turn it around sideways and still have it in stereo. So, you know, no more just

1:12:04one big speaker. It's four speakers, you get stereo. Pencil support. I don't know what

1:12:11else.

1:12:12The keyboard.

1:12:13Oh, yes, yes, yes. And the little thing on the side, the new port for the smart keyboard.

1:12:18Yeah, that's the big one.

1:12:19Right.

1:12:20And any iPad that has those things is an iPad Pro. And you just pick which size you want.

1:12:25Yeah, I mean, if they're putting those things in that, it certainly doesn't make any sense

1:12:30to call it the iPad Air, even if it's the same size.

1:12:34And so the other argument is just call it the iPad.

1:12:38But then you don't really get that sort of branding effect of, "But it's got all these

1:12:43other things that go along with the iPad."

1:12:45Right.

1:12:46I think the difference...

1:12:47And so, for example, obviously the MacBook shows that Apple is willing to just have a

1:12:53that is without a modifier, no adjective, just the product, you know, the family name.

1:12:59I think the difference is that the iPad Pro has these flagship features.

1:13:03Again, whatever size iPad Pro is, the big one that we already have or this new one that

1:13:07is supposedly imminent, but it has the smart keyboard adapter, it has pencil support, that

1:13:14these things make it a pro, whereas the MacBook doesn't really have anything, except it's

1:13:20extraordinary weight and size.

1:13:22I didn't mean to be that dismissive of it,

1:13:23but that there is no thing that the MacBook does

1:13:28that you would call a pro feature.

1:13:32- No, certainly not.

1:13:33If anything, it's the opposite.

1:13:35(laughs)

1:13:36Not that it's a bad device.

1:13:38- Amy and I, Amy just saw one for the first time.

1:13:40I did not get a review unit or anything of that.

1:13:43So I've never used one except in a store.

1:13:48And we were in an Apple store the other day,

1:13:51and Amy saw it for the first time, she was like,

1:13:53"What the hell is this?"

1:13:54She honestly didn't really,

1:13:56I think she'd made her heard of it,

1:13:58but she really hadn't realized,

1:13:59and she said it,

1:14:01it was both with disdain and kind of impressed,

1:14:07like, "This is amazing, but why would anybody buy this thing?

1:14:09Why not just buy an iPad?"

1:14:11That was her take.

1:14:11I said, "Well, people want a keyboard."

1:14:14And she goes, "But this keyboard sucks."

1:14:16(laughing)

1:14:18And I was like, "Well, that's, you know, that's a..."

1:14:20Our family key people, everybody in the family is pretty hardcore.

1:14:25Pretty hardcore on the keyboard.

1:14:26We're not like that. We're not like that. I've used that keyboard, and I would easily

1:14:32switch to that keyboard. I like that device, and I like the trackpad, but I'm hoping that the next

1:14:39one will be at least a little more powerful and possibly maybe have another port.

1:14:44I think it would be a huge upgrade. I think it's got to be so much faster. I think the first one

1:14:49one was about putting a flag and sticking the ground saying this is how thin and light

1:14:54these things should be. And now they've got a year to actually get the tech to actually

1:14:59support it.

1:15:01Yeah.

1:15:04But anyway,

1:15:05because yeah, my so my am I've got a 10 inch is a 10 or 11 I can't remember the small air

1:15:1111 and yeah, okay 11 and

1:15:13I've had it's a 2012

1:15:17So I'm kind of you're pushing holding out. I thought I really thought about buying buying a new

1:15:24Computer in the fall, but I thought yeah, I gotta see what that next MacBook is going

1:15:29I think the next MacBook my I don't know anything about it

1:15:31I just suspect that it's gonna be very compelling especially if you can get by with the keyboard

1:15:35I could I'm sure I could adjust to the keyboard any hardware keyboard I could get used to it's

1:15:40Yeah. I mean, you're not going to use that keyboard at home anyway.

1:15:44No. No. But sometimes when I'm using... I obviously do most of my writing at my desk

1:15:50with my big old clickety-clack keyboard, but when I am traveling, though, sometimes I actually

1:15:54have to do a lot of writing. Like, I'm more...

1:15:56You're steampunk keyboard.

1:15:57The only reason I am traveling half the time is because I have something to write about,

1:16:01because it's an Apple event or whatever.

1:16:06The big question that people have, we have to get to it, is what is the pricing on the

1:16:10iPad Pro gonna be the new this new smaller one is it going to be as in the

1:16:16ballpark of the expense of the big one another and then therefore meaning that

1:16:20they would and and Tim Cook's Apple I mean it is obvious this is obvious to

1:16:26anybody who even pays half attention to the company one of the difference in Tim

1:16:30Cook's Apple and Steve Jobs's Apple is that Tim Cook's Apple keeps the older

1:16:33ones around longer as opposed to wiping the family clean and saying oh you like

1:16:39the you like the iPod mini now we don't make it anymore it's gone yeah it was the

1:16:48most popular thing we made yes single mode actually it's the most popular thing

1:16:51this company's ever made yeah but we we took all you like that guess what we

1:16:56actually had a bunch of them left and we dumped them in the Pacific Ocean because

1:17:00that's how much that's how much I like this I iPod nano better right that was

1:17:05Steve Jobs. I think it's almost certain that the iPad Air 2 will

1:17:11stay around in some way at 16 gigabytes and at some kind of,

1:17:15you know, lower price point. I would I would be flabbergasted

1:17:20if they don't because it would be so out of character for Tim

1:17:22Cook's Apple. The question though, is with the the big iPad

1:17:28Pro, the one that's already out the 12 inch one, the 13 inch,

1:17:30whatever it is, it starts at 799. But boy, you know, that's

1:17:35the 32 gigabyte one that with Wi-Fi. If you want cellular, you're up to 1079 for 128 gigabytes.

1:17:44And those are your only options on the existing iPad Pro. You have just have three to choose

1:17:49from 32, that's Wi-Fi only, 128 with Wi-Fi only, or 128 with Wi-Fi and cellular. So in

1:17:56some ways, it's commendable because it's a lot simpler of a product matrix than a lot

1:18:01of Apple's other products. But on the other hand, boy, that, you know, I'm not quite sure

1:18:05how much less this one will cost if the only difference is the display. And does that leave

1:18:12a hole in the lineup where the main, you know, people who want to spend five or 600 bucks

1:18:17on an iPad are still buying the iPad Air 2. Lots and lots of people on Twitter asking

1:18:23me what do I think this thing's going to cost and I really don't know. I'm terrible at that.

1:18:28Yeah, it seems... is the base iPad still 16 for the Air?

1:18:37Well, let's see.

1:18:38I'm trying to...

1:18:40[whistling]

1:18:41Well, they still sell...

1:18:44Talk amongst yourselves.

1:18:48Right now, they still sell...

1:18:50Yeah, so 16 is the $500 iPad Air 2.

1:18:57for what did I say? Yeah, that's right. Then it goes to 1664 128.

1:19:04They've got iPads. I mean, if you just look at the compare, I mean, I guess I I'm almost

1:19:11sure I would hope that at the very least they're gonna get rid of the iPad Air one that's gone.

1:19:16And they'll just have two iPad minis, the mini four and the mini two in all these different

1:19:22configurations. And then the I don't know, is it a previous

1:19:29incurrence? Is this a problem? I don't know. I guess I would

1:19:33maybe suggest it's just weird. I don't think it's like, well, I

1:19:36mean, I clearly I've had some problems, but I don't think it's

1:19:38no, the fact that there's an iPad Air. No, and it's easy to

1:19:42get started either. Like if you walk in a store and you don't

1:19:45know which one to buy, it's easy to get started by saying, Well,

1:19:47which size one do you want? And then people can start by saying,

1:19:50"Well, I want this size."

1:19:52And then from there, it's already simplified dramatically.

1:19:55And the picking between the colors,

1:19:56that's not a complicating issue.

1:19:58That's just, that's easy, right?

1:20:01You just know which one you like better, and you pick it.

1:20:04I don't count that, like if there's three colors available,

1:20:07I don't count that as tripling the complexity.

1:20:09And then when it comes to,

1:20:12to me, the toughest decision for somebody

1:20:15who's getting an iPad is do you get the Wi-Fi

1:20:18or do you get the Wi-Fi in cellular?

1:20:19That to me is a really tough one.

1:20:21And when family members ask me advice.

1:20:24- I don't have a problem with that.

1:20:25Because I mean, I,

1:20:26'cause to me I would just use tethering.

1:20:28- Right, from your phone.

1:20:30- Yeah.

1:20:31So I don't, I never, I will never buy it.

1:20:35I mean, a cellular capable iPad again probably.

1:20:38- I do.

1:20:39I buy them because, and Amy does the same thing,

1:20:43that we both have AT&T iPads and we have Verizon phones.

1:20:46And when traveling that--

1:20:48Oh, okay.

1:20:49That can be...

1:20:50Yeah, I can see that.

1:20:51I've been...

1:20:52I should keep track of it though.

1:20:53I have found though, anecdotally in the last year, I have found that fewer and fewer times

1:21:01do I need to worry.

1:21:03You know, that the Verizon signal at airports and stuff like that is good enough that I

1:21:08don't find myself doing that.

1:21:09But...

1:21:10Well, I've always found Verizon's coverage to be better than AT&T's.

1:21:13So if I were to do it, I would probably...

1:21:15Can you even do this?

1:21:16do Verizon phone, which is what I already do, and then T-Mobile.

1:21:23Yeah, I would get... If I get a new... Next time I buy an iPad, if I do get cellular,

1:21:27I'm going to buy T-Mobile instead of AT&T.

1:21:29Yeah, because then you'd be like, you're in downtown someplace and you can get wicked

1:21:32fast.

1:21:32And you also feel like you're giving your money to a company that actually maybe you

1:21:37feel good about giving some money to?

1:21:40Yeah.

1:21:41(laughs)

1:21:43I kind of regret that I didn't switch our phones to T-Mobile

1:21:46and at this point what did...

1:21:48- Well, yeah, and you guys are downtown.

1:21:50Like you're in a pretty well covered area.

1:21:53I did a review of phones last year

1:21:58for or not phones of cellular providers in the Seattle area.

1:22:03And so for Tom's hardware.

1:22:08And so they sent me all these phones

1:22:10I drove around and tried them in different areas and T-Mobile came up the best.

1:22:15And so I was like, Oh, maybe we should move to T-Mobile, but not at our house.

1:22:19That was the problem. In downtown Seattle, it was crazy fast. It was fantastic.

1:22:25But, uh, when I drove home, no, couldn't get a signal. I mean,

1:22:30couldn't get a good signal.

1:22:31So here's the price lineup of the iPads now.

1:22:34So the wifi ones go from 400 to 700 and that's

1:22:39expands the gamut from iPad Air 1 with only 16 gigs up to 128 gigabyte iPad Air 2. Can

1:22:47they just replace, can they do an iPad Pro at the 9.7 inch size that's in this 500,

1:22:55600, 700 dollar range? I don't know.

1:22:58I think they won't.

1:22:59It's a big...

1:23:00I think it'll be, I'm gonna guess, here's my guess, and you know, it's worth what you're

1:23:05paying for is a 16 gigabyte iPad Pro.

1:23:13No, I don't think they'll do--

1:23:14I don't think they'll do 16.

1:23:15No, you don't think so?

1:23:16I think that if--

1:23:16Oh, no, no, no, that's right.

1:23:17That's right.

1:23:17No, I know.

1:23:18I actually came up with this earlier,

1:23:19and I'm misstating what I thought.

1:23:2132.

1:23:22It'll start at 32 at 600, and then it'll do 64 at 700,

1:23:29and then 800.

1:23:30Maybe they'll do like the other Pro, though,

1:23:32and just jump right to 128.

1:23:33I don't know.

1:23:34That's a big jump though.

1:23:35Maybe they want to have those $100 increments.

1:23:39Because that jump is $250.

1:23:43So with the big 13-inch iPad Pro,

1:23:46it goes from $800 to $950 if you go from $32 to $128.

1:23:51So with the current 13-inch iPad Pro, the jumps from $800--

1:23:55I'm going to skip Apple's Goofy 99 numbering.

1:23:57I'm going to add $1 to every price.

1:23:59It goes from $800 to $950 to go from $32 to $128.

1:24:03So it's only $150 gap when you go all the way from 32 to 128.

1:24:08Can they go $200 by going 32, 64, 128?

1:24:14It seems weird that the bigger one could go from 32 to 128

1:24:22for quote unquote only $150,

1:24:24but then the 9.71 would go in $100 increments?

1:24:31I don't think the 9.71 will go.

1:24:33Well, I think maybe it won't go to 128.

1:24:36- Right.

1:24:37Well, but the iPad-- - It'll be 32.64.

1:24:39- No, the iPad Air 2 already goes to 128.

1:24:42- Yeah, I know.

1:24:43(laughing)

1:24:44But that'll-- - Don't annoy me

1:24:46with these-- - Yeah, I know.

1:24:47I don't know, who knows?

1:24:48- Maybe they'll simplify and just go 32.128.

1:24:53I don't know, and have a $150 jump in there.

1:24:57And then if you want a 16 gigabyte iPad,

1:24:59you just buy the Air 2.

1:25:01- Right, by the air too.

1:25:03- I think Pro definitely starts at 32.

1:25:05And it's totally, and again, it's such a big difference,

1:25:09given that iOS itself is around like eight gigabytes

1:25:12or something like that.

1:25:13Like the usable space difference between 16 and 32,

1:25:17it's way bigger than the numbers alone make it seem.

1:25:22- Yeah, now you get a special edition 340 gigabyte device.

1:25:29But I've been getting 64 for most everything now,

1:25:34and that's been great.

1:25:36Whereas for a while, I was struggling with 32.

1:25:41- I could get by with 32 even.

1:25:43- It's hard now.

1:25:45- Yeah, 'cause there's some,

1:25:47I don't even play a lot of games,

1:25:48but a handful of games,

1:25:50or if you load up on movies for a flight

1:25:52or something like that,

1:25:5364 is the sweet spot for me for an iPad,

1:25:55where if I have 64,

1:25:57I don't think I'm ever going to run out of space.

1:26:00And if I do, I think there'd be some kind of--

1:26:02I can delete the whole season of Mad Men

1:26:04that I already watched or whatever.

1:26:06There's something that I can delete to easily free up

1:26:08the space.

1:26:10And I just don't have to worry about it.

1:26:15And one of the reasons-- and I have to say it.

1:26:17I don't want to go into a whole digression about it.

1:26:19But for me at least, the way that iCloud Photo Library works

1:26:23and that it just downloads the files when you need them

1:26:26you don't have to use it. It's like I feel like I can get all my photos on my iPad and

1:26:30I don't have all the space taken up with all my photos on my iPad. I really hate to say

1:26:37it, but it's a service that Apple really nailed. It does what it claims to on the tin. Here's

1:26:45a weird one.

1:26:46I still don't use it.

1:26:47Here's a weird one. The iPad Air, this is so weird. The iPad Air, the AirPods Air 1.

1:26:54If you get the Wi-Fi only model, or either model, the two sizes are 16 and 32, and they're

1:27:00only separated by 50 bucks.

1:27:02Like...

1:27:03Jared Polin Really?

1:27:05Steven

1:27:14Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. But it's like, man, for 50 bucks, just get rid of the 16 gigabyte.

1:27:18You know what I mean? I don't know.

1:27:21Yeah, I mean, they must, there must be, well, I don't know. I was gonna say they must think

1:27:27they have a reason, but at the same time, they're not selling as many iPads.

1:27:30All right, and it's not even $100 upset.

1:27:32Maybe they are doing the wrong thing.

1:27:35Just 50 bucks. So the iPad. So that's the big question is what are the new iPad, this

1:27:40new iPad Pro that's only 9.7 inches, what is it gonna cost? Is it gonna be $100 more

1:27:44than the comparable Air 2s right now because it's got all this fancy new stuff? I don't

1:27:49know.

1:27:50Well, the other thing is I probably want it to be $100 more because I just bought an iPad

1:27:54Air 2 in the fall.

1:27:55And you would also…

1:27:57Which is just perfect timing.

1:28:00You would also like to have a sharp edge that gives you a nasty paper cut.

1:28:04And a shock. It'll give you a shock every once in a while.

1:28:08And it only gets two hours of battery life. And it runs extremely hot.

1:28:13I'm pretty sure that's exactly what's gonna happen.

1:28:19Right, we're releasing it in February because it's a lot warmer.

1:28:24It'll keep people warm.

1:28:25I guess they're releasing it in March.

1:28:26No, March.

1:28:27Yeah, March.

1:28:28There'll be March tomorrow.

1:28:29Yeah.

1:28:30But not yet.

1:28:31When we record it.

1:28:32When we record it.

1:28:33Yeah.

1:28:34I saw a thing today.

1:28:35So we'll record.

1:28:36We'll probably never record on Leap Day again.

1:28:39That's right.

1:28:40record podcasts again. But it's, you know, it seems right. Yeah, it's not the chances

1:28:46are slight. The chances are pretty slim that you and I will ever record on leap day again.

1:28:50And a Monday and a Monday night is not also unusual.

1:28:56It is a little bit. I saw a thing today that said, I guess I should write this down and

1:29:04put it in the show notes, see if I can find it again. That births go way down on leap

1:29:10day. And not just C-sections where you would think that there'd be some control because

1:29:18a lot of times when the mother has a C-section, you can kind of plan it and you can be like,

1:29:22"Eh, we'll do it tomorrow." But even natural births, even vaginal births go down on leap

1:29:28day, which would suggest that...

1:29:30Well, there's, I mean, aren't there supposedly like little things that you can do?

1:29:33Apparently there is. And the graph is, it's not subtle. It's really, really serious.

1:29:39Yeah, because like my sister-in-law, I remember, you know, like I think one of the kids was late,

1:29:47and the doctor said, "Go home and have a glass of red wine."

1:29:50Hmm. Really?

1:29:51And so she did. And like 24 hours later, new kid.

1:29:59Would you mind having a leap day birthday?

1:30:01I mean, I don't know. What are you gonna do?

1:30:09Yeah, I mean, I guess it's a little odd. I mean, as opposed to, if I had a choice as to have one or

1:30:16not, I would say I would rather not. But my son's birthday is just a few days after Christmas,

1:30:24which I think is lousy. It's a bum draw.

1:30:29- Amy's is a handful of days before Christmas.

1:30:31And trust me, I've heard that it's a bum draw.

1:30:35(laughing)

1:30:36- Well, she said she's at a bum draw on Christmas.

1:30:39- So the way that they do it,

1:30:40I've always, so the way they do it is

1:30:42if your birthday's February 29,

1:30:44you celebrate on the other years,

1:30:46you celebrate on March 1st.

1:30:48And to me, that's the thing,

1:30:50and as a kid, I see the logic of it,

1:30:53where your birthday is the day after February 28th.

1:30:57But one of the things that I think puts a sour taste in people's mouths with a leap day birthday is, I think it would make more sense to celebrate it on February 28th and say that your birthday is the last day of February.

1:31:15Because to me, part of your birthday is the month. You know, like, are you a March person? Are you an October person? Are you a December person? Oh, near Christmas. You know, it's the month matters.

1:31:26So even if you're at the last day of the month,

1:31:29it's like you feel like you're a February birthday person.

1:31:32And that's how the--

1:31:33Yeah.

1:31:35Isn't that how the old horoscopes work?

1:31:37People still do horoscopes?

1:31:39Well, sure.

1:31:40Some people do.

1:31:41But it's like the cutoff date is the month, though, right?

1:31:46So what, all of a sudden you're not a Pisces anymore?

1:31:48Now you're a-- whatever the hell it is?

1:31:51Well, I get it's the month you were born in.

1:31:53I just feel like it changes the feel on that.

1:31:58I guess in general, I guess I'm glad I wasn't born on February 29.

1:32:02I think people who--

1:32:03Yeah.

1:32:04I think people who are pulling shenanigans not to have a baby on the day,

1:32:07I don't know about that.

1:32:09[LAUGHTER]

1:32:12You're glad you're going to burn that day,

1:32:13but you don't think anybody should avoid it.

1:32:18Yeah.

1:32:19[LAUGHTER]

1:32:21That's typical.

1:32:22That's typical I've got mine thinking.

1:32:25- I got my birthday that occurs every year.

1:32:28- It's February 29th for the rest of you suckers.

1:32:33- Have I ever, I might've mentioned this on the air before.

1:32:35Have I ever told you about the time Michael Lop

1:32:37missed his birthday?

1:32:38- No, I don't think so.

1:32:40- So for Webstock two years ago, three years ago,

1:32:43last time I went to Webstock.

1:32:44- Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

1:32:46'Cause he flew around the world.

1:32:47- Friend of the show, good personal friend of mine,

1:32:50Michael Lop was going to Webstock, I was going,

1:32:52and Michael Lop got on an airplane in California

1:32:55the day before his birthday and flew over the Pacific

1:32:59and got off the plane in New Zealand

1:33:01the day after his birthday.

1:33:03(laughing)

1:33:05- Damn it.

1:33:06- And Jonas came with us that trip

1:33:09'cause it coincided with like the fall break for his school

1:33:13or spring break for his school.

1:33:14And Jonas was just astounded, just absolutely positive.

1:33:19like eight or nine at the time, just astounded that this could happen to you.

1:33:24You could lose your birthday. Because when you're a kid, however much you love your birthday,

1:33:30you know, throughout your life, when you're a kid, your birthday is a national holiday.

1:33:33You're not getting cheated out of, you know, the last Snickers, you know. You're getting cheated

1:33:39out of your goddamn birthday. And he came back, and then it was like you come back, and it's like

1:33:45you got, you know, I guess he missed like... He had a bunch of days off, but he still missed a

1:33:49dare to school and so it's like you know what'd you do on your trip and whatever and the whole

1:33:53discussion was about my dad's friend who lost a birthday and and everybody all his friends

1:33:58were like what and he like explained it and then the teacher was like oh yeah the international

1:34:02date line and like they got out of math they had like a little thing in school and they like kind

1:34:05of learned how it worked and his class was just like this is outrageous you know like it was like

1:34:10the civil civil rights issue of the third grade it was absolutely outrageous that this man lost

1:34:19a birthday. They're having, they walked out of school that day. You had to sit in outside.

1:34:25Oh. Get Michael Lopas' birthday back.

1:34:28It's a hell of a thing though. It really hurts my head when I think about it. The International

1:34:35Dateline, it's still, I tried to, I understand it enough, but it's like, it still, it seems like

1:34:41there should have been some point where he was somewhere where it was his birthday.

1:34:45It doesn't make any sense.

1:34:46It doesn't make any sense.

1:34:48But that's what happened.

1:34:49No.

1:34:50You can miss the whole day.

1:34:51See, what happens is you come back and you get an extra day.

1:34:53You'll get to--

1:34:55But not that day.

1:34:56No.

1:34:56You don't get to get--

1:34:59You don't get to redo.

1:35:01I want my extra day to be last Friday.

1:35:04You don't get that.

1:35:06What else is supposedly coming for this event?

1:35:09Apple Watch straps and stuff.

1:35:11Straps.

1:35:12seems like a i don't know yeah boring do you have do you have uh multiple straps for you i have um

1:35:21you don't wear it oh but you famously don't wear your watch yeah i wear it some days i do

1:35:26uh i know i read no i read that you didn't

1:35:28i have you must be mistaken i have the space black link thing and uh 95% of the time that's the

1:35:41band I wear because I actually find that metal bracelet the most comfortable. But I have two of

1:35:48the floral elastomer ones. I have the black one which I bought when I ordered to watch and then

1:35:54I bought the orange one when they came out with new flavors last fall. So I have the original,

1:36:04I have a space black aluminum watch and the original black band and then for my birthday I got a

1:36:12leather band off Etsy

1:36:15Which actually has some pretty cool

1:36:18Pretty cool bands. Yeah, I think one of the reasons that those

1:36:21You know the third-party ones from like an Etsy or a small company or so good is that a lot of these people have been

1:36:27making watch straps

1:36:29For a while anyway, so it's not they're not like getting into something new

1:36:34You know and they were very they were very nice

1:36:36I mean because my wife bought it for me for my birthday back in November and you know

1:36:41They were very concerned about you know like as it fits and it back if it doesn't fit well

1:36:45We can you can adjust it and so

1:36:48You know it's like there's that group of

1:36:52People who have been doing this for a while who already have like customer service, right?

1:36:57You know they're good at that stuff

1:36:59Yeah

1:36:59And I think the difference between something like an iPhone case is that that you really want an iPhone case to be engineered with these

1:37:05Incredibly accurate tolerances and otherwise it just it it's either hard to get it in and out of the case or it flipped

1:37:11You know, it just doesn't fit right or whatever. Whereas a watch strap isn't really about

1:37:15Precise sub millimeter perfection around your wrist because it's obviously, you know, even yeah

1:37:23Even you yourself your wrist is slightly different diameters on different days based on you know

1:37:29whether I'm retaining the exactly which is usually yeah that's most bloated you

1:37:36are I eat a lot of salty food you know and it's about what makes a watch strap

1:37:42a nice watch strap or a bracelet a nice bracelet is other things and it's you

1:37:46know how it feels and you know subjective things and but you know like

1:37:49the leather ones it's you know how good are you working with leather and some of

1:37:52these you know like that's little mom-and-pop places on Etsy that just

1:37:56work with leather. They're experts. They're really, really good.

1:37:59Right. A lot of them in Texas because they have a lot of dead cows there.

1:38:03It's an interesting fact.

1:38:05Yeah. But the one thing that I've really enjoyed about the watch is, and it made me think about

1:38:14this compared to every other watch that I've ever owned, is how fast you can change the bands.

1:38:18Yeah.

1:38:19Because I do this because I don't want to work out in my leather band, but I want to wear the

1:38:23Apple Watch when I work out. So I just quickly switched back to the fluoroelastomer. And

1:38:31it takes like five seconds.

1:38:34You pronounce it Blackblaze. No, it's true. For all the complaints that I have levied

1:38:43against Apple Watch, the one thing that's absolutely true is the brilliance of that

1:38:47switching mechanism.

1:38:48Yeah, I mean, I think all watches should have that.

1:38:52- Oh yeah, a lot of the people who are the biggest

1:38:55praisers of it are people coming from the watch world

1:38:57where they're like, in some ways, Apple really,

1:38:59say what you want about the functionality

1:39:01of the watch itself, leave that aside.

1:39:03But in terms of certain things like making bracelets

1:39:08and the design and the switching and stuff like that,

1:39:09they just showed that the Swiss industry

1:39:11had been asleep at the wheel for decades

1:39:13because they haven't really, you know,

1:39:16like the top of the line watch strap from 1981

1:39:19is like indistinguishable from the top of the line

1:39:21strap now. Yeah, and you need a little tool to be able to switch it and you know there's a really

1:39:26good chance that you're going to shoot the little metal spring thing across the room when you try

1:39:32and lose it. Right. That's horrible. Or like on a link bracelet on a Swiss most you know like Rolex

1:39:38or an Omega or a Tag Heuer. You don't just need a little tool you need like a special little

1:39:44screwdriver but you actually have to have like you really ought to use like there's a certain kind of

1:39:48of glue that you want to put in there when you put it back in,

1:39:52you like to take a link out to resize it. And then when you put

1:39:55the screw back in, you want to put I forget what they call it,

1:39:57it's called like Loctite or something like that. But it's

1:40:00like a jewelers glue that will, it's just enough so that it's

1:40:04never going to come out when you don't want it. But if you

1:40:06eventually want to resize the watch again, or put the link

1:40:09back in, it's not so tight that you can't get it out or strip

1:40:11the screw. It's like perfect glue. Well, who the hell has

1:40:14that? Right? So you're just to get the thing resized, you're

1:40:17off to the jeweler you know your local corner jeweler or whatever yeah so anyway

1:40:24yeah I don't know what they're going what so what they would they were the

1:40:26one of the rumors was about a nylon right that they would ship a nylon right

1:40:34which I would be very interested in it yeah I have a watch with a nylon band

1:40:37very comfortable in my opinion yeah that's what I wore for years before I

1:40:41got the Apple watch so yeah I'm curious to see how Apple does the connection to

1:40:45watch on that one though because I feel like the ones that I've seen so far they don't

1:40:49quite look right because of just the nature of the the connector to the watch that they just

1:40:55kind of they don't quite look right with just like a a bar sticking out of the bar the bar yeah

1:41:01yeah well that's what my I mean that's what my leather one uses and it's it's okay but yeah but

1:41:06I don't think apple yeah but somehow with the leather ones the bars don't they don't look as

1:41:10out of places with a nylon strap I think because leather is typically a little thicker and it it

1:41:14it pads out a little and whereas the nylon ones are, you know,

1:41:17makes the bar show a little. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just,

1:41:21somehow the,

1:41:23the interplay between the thickness of the strap material and the bar just

1:41:26doesn't seem as right to me. I don't know how they're going to do it though.

1:41:30Like what are they going to, maybe it's just, you know,

1:41:32Jeff Williams comes out and talks about how many, you know,

1:41:35millions of people are using health care and great new apps from these airlines

1:41:40and people are Apple paying with their watch 10 million times a day or whatever.

1:41:44And then here's some new bands and get off the stage, which is sort of, I guess, what

1:41:48he did in September.

1:41:50Although they also had Apple, you know, the OS/2, the WatchOS/2 to show.

1:41:56Whereas I don't think anybody's expecting a new WatchOS.

1:41:59So I mean, maybe they have something in secret, some secret new feature just so they have

1:42:03something to demo.

1:42:04But I'm not quite sure.

1:42:05It seems...

1:42:06Well, new faces would be nice.

1:42:08And that seems like something that would be simple to do.

1:42:10But I am completely making it.

1:42:13Right.

1:42:14though. And that's something that if it's, I don't know what the version number would

1:42:17be, watchOS 2.1 or whatever, that they could have been working on in secret and it's, you

1:42:23know, no surprise that it didn't leak. Is this enough? This is my question, I keep thinking,

1:42:29after I spent all this money to book an airplane. Is it enough to justify the money that you

1:42:37Well, it's a phone that is in--

1:42:44then there's leaks of the case, too.

1:42:45And I think it looks interesting.

1:42:46It's an interesting combination of the straight sides

1:42:49and the curves.

1:42:50And they got rid of the chamfered edges

1:42:51and have just like a rounded edge.

1:42:54It seems like an interesting case design.

1:42:56But fundamentally, technology-wise, it's

1:42:59a phone that has nothing new.

1:43:01It's a size we've had before, a basic shape we've had before,

1:43:05camera technology that's beneath the cutting edge of the 6S, and a screen that we've seen

1:43:12before, and an A9 system on a chip, which is great that it's the current model year,

1:43:17but guess what? We've already had these phones for six months with the A9. And then an iPad,

1:43:22that is the exact same story. Everything that's new and novel about it was in the

1:43:2813-inch iPad Pro that we have had since November. So what do you do on stage

1:43:35to talk about these things, right?

1:43:37Like, here's this thing that's exactly like

1:43:39what we announced in September, but smaller.

1:43:41That's a tough event.

1:43:43And then, what, here's new watch straps?

1:43:46That seems like a tough event.

1:43:51Even if they, you know, and one thing about Apple,

1:43:53and I say this and I really mean it,

1:43:55kudos as somebody who's, especially when the town hall

1:43:58events, oh my god, it's like a coach seat in an airplane.

1:44:02Not even, it's tighter.

1:44:03It's like a tighter fit than a coach seat in an airplane.

1:44:05If they only have 48 minutes of stuff to talk about,

1:44:09they'll have a 48 minute event,

1:44:10and maybe a five minute video.

1:44:12Right, but they're not gonna keep you there for two hours

1:44:16if they don't have two hours of stuff.

1:44:18I just don't know what else they're gonna do.

1:44:21I mean, I guess some people are wondering,

1:44:22hoping sort of maybe,

1:44:24that maybe there's new MacBooks of some kind.

1:44:26I don't know how that aligns though

1:44:27with what Intel's putting out.

1:44:29Intel meaning the CPU company.

1:44:32Right, right. Yeah, I can't think of any other shoe that's in the air that is ready to drop at this point.

1:44:41It's like, I wonder how close they were, if there's nothing else that's coming, I wonder how close they were internally to doing it without an event and just having, you know, giving it to people, you know, review units, you know, in private briefings like they've done it, other things when there's no...

1:44:58Yeah.

1:44:59And you know, maybe there's something else or maybe they you know, they feel like this is good enough to

1:45:04You know, maybe for reasons that escape me and are not obvious to me. Maybe there's something there's some message

1:45:10They have to give that actually, you know makes for a compelling event. Oh

1:45:13The wasn't there a

1:45:18An update to Apple music coming - I

1:45:22Don't know if it's coming in March though, right? Okay

1:45:27I don't know that either, but I had heard that there was an update coming and that it's supposedly much more understandable.

1:45:37There was a podcast that Eddie Q was on where he said that there's an update to the remote app for the Apple TV. I forget which show it was.

1:45:47I don't listen to podcasts that much.

1:45:50If they want to just sort of do a run through,

1:45:54you know, here's all of our stuff,

1:45:56and here's little, you know, things big and small,

1:45:59the little improvements we're announcing

1:46:00to all of our stuff.

1:46:01If they wanna run through Apple TV,

1:46:03you know, demoing the new app that lets you use your phone

1:46:07as a full-fledged, you know, Apple remote.

1:46:10- Yeah.

1:46:11Well, and maybe they have some third-party thing

1:46:15that's tied into that, right?

1:46:16- I wouldn't be surprised at all if the,

1:46:18that that's coming is a March event thing because, you know,

1:46:22it just gives them something to demo.

1:46:24So at least announce it, at least they would announce it and say when it's coming.

1:46:28But if they had like a game or something like that where if two players need a remote,

1:46:32now there's a solution to it because one of you can use your phone and the other one can use the remote.

1:46:37Was that just a few weeks ago?

1:46:39Yeah, I think so.

1:46:41Yeah.

1:46:42So he said three months, right?

1:46:44I thought he said a few months, honestly.

1:46:46honestly. Okay. So maybe not. I mean, I think he said, he said three, I thought he said

1:46:50three but it was kind of like, just like tossed it out. I mean, not like, you know, he was

1:46:54not, I don't think that date was necessarily supposed to indicate that that's exactly what

1:46:59it was. Yeah, he maybe doesn't even know. Yeah. I hope he made it up. What if I, I really

1:47:06hope that he just made that up on the spot and just thought, you know what, we should

1:47:09have that. And I really hope that like after the podcast, he was like, I had to go to the,

1:47:13Oh, I should know we had to go to like some engineers and say okay

1:47:16You got to make you got to make the iPhone app

1:47:18Do everything that the crack the whip you got to do everything that the remote does why because I just said we were gonna do

1:47:23it in a few months

1:47:25This is why they don't they didn't used to let people talk, right

1:47:31But it's funny to think about it and because we don't have video right it was entirely conducted by audio remotely

1:47:36So wouldn't be funny if like Federighi was like Craig was like giving him like the throat cut motion like

1:47:42There what the hell are you like just didn't say anything cuz he's you know in front of a hot mic

1:47:46But he's just looking at Eddie like what the hell are you talking about? I don't have anybody working on that

1:47:50How hard could it be yeah, right if that's like what Eddie gives him like it gives him a look like what it's get the

1:47:58Get those crossy road people and they will be fine

1:48:01It's worth an announcement

1:48:04It seems like and well, I mean I like my Apple TV, but I

1:48:11Don't really play games on it other than the few that I played when I first show I've done it. I don't anymore though

1:48:17Yeah, not because because I don't play games period except for firewatch. Oh

1:48:21Yeah, we got

1:48:24But it just seems like

1:48:27They need to do

1:48:29Something else to make that to kick start that a little bit

1:48:31Is there anything else that was supposedly coming smaller iPhone revamped iPad tweaks to the Apple watch line

1:48:40I know I mean you know there's the loft mentioned video streaming thing but that

1:48:49doesn't seem like that's yeah then that doesn't any close any closer to fruition

1:48:54than it has been for a while now and it doesn't seem like something that they

1:48:59would do at town hall and it's again we don't know that it's a town hall but all

1:49:04the hints seem to suggest that it is and the fact that everything else is so

1:49:08small would reiterate it.

1:49:11I said before, I think I blogged it.

1:49:13I don't think I said it on the show.

1:49:14But if it is at Town Hall, I think

1:49:17there's a very good chance that this will be the last public

1:49:19event for the press that Apple ever holds at Town Hall.

1:49:23Because if they stick to last year's schedule,

1:49:27the next time we hear from Apple will be at WWDC,

1:49:30and that'll be at Moscone.

1:49:31The next time we hear from them will be in September.

1:49:34And that'll be a big, big, big, big show in a huge venue,

1:49:38because it's gonna be the new iPhone

1:49:40and probably a new Apple Watch 2.0,

1:49:43but anything else they're gonna do this year,

1:49:45and the iPhone one is always a big deal,

1:49:47is way too big for town hall.

1:49:49And then starting last year,

1:49:51they didn't have a little small October event.

1:49:54The September event was,

1:49:56here's everything we've got for the rest of the year.

1:49:57And privately and from other people,

1:50:00I've heard that that was not coincidence or circumstance.

1:50:04It was strategy.

1:50:05It was doing an event in September

1:50:07And then another one, even if small in October,

1:50:10is too big of a pain in the ass.

1:50:12And too-- - Yeah, I would think so.

1:50:14- So then that rolls, then the next time we hear from them

1:50:19would be March next year, and by that time,

1:50:22supposedly, the new campus is gonna be open.

1:50:24- Right, right. - And it seems like

1:50:26if it's really close to being open,

1:50:27it would be almost criminal to have an event

1:50:30at the old campus, like, oh, welcome

1:50:31to our old crappy campus.

1:50:33- You should take, you should take, like,

1:50:35a big 48 ounce malt liquor and just pour it out right on your seat when you're done.

1:50:44I've done that at most of the events at Down Hall.

1:50:48I forgot that's your signature move.

1:50:50Your signature move.

1:50:53I even have. That's how I save my seat for the next event.

1:50:57Nobody wants to sit there. Got to invite John back.

1:51:02I don't think there's anything else coming up.

1:51:04I don't think there's anything else.

1:51:05Maybe a MacBook, I don't know.

1:51:07But anyway, I don't know.

1:51:08Do you think that's a good event?

1:51:09Do you think it's gonna be a weird event?

1:51:11- Well, I think it's gonna be a good event

1:51:12'cause I'm very interested in this phone.

1:51:14- I'm really curious how they--

1:51:18- Other people's mileage may vary.

1:51:19- I'm really curious how they position the phone.

1:51:22In addition to my previous statement

1:51:25that I'm interested in how they talk about the camera,

1:51:26I'm interested in how they talk about the size.

1:51:29because it was, I mean they were never able to say,

1:51:34starting with the 6, they were never able to say,

1:51:38now we have a big phone, small phones suck,

1:51:40because they've always, they've always still

1:51:43had the smaller ones in the lineup,

1:51:46filling out price points, so they couldn't

1:51:48really bad mouth them.

1:51:49But it was also clear that ever since they went to the 6,

1:51:54that the smaller phones were years old models

1:51:58that were being moved down to different price points

1:52:00as they got older.

1:52:02Whereas now they're coming out with a four inch phone

1:52:05that, you know, they're obviously not going to say

1:52:07that this is a top tier.

1:52:09It's not the 6S mini, you know, it is different.

1:52:13Whatever they're gonna call it.

1:52:15You know, and the camera by all accounts

1:52:16is not quite as good.

1:52:17So no matter what, it's, you know,

1:52:19it's some sort of cup below.

1:52:20But it's also definitely new and it's got cutting,

1:52:24you know, cutting edge A9, et cetera.

1:52:27So I'm curious how they talk about why they're adding the 4-inch phone with these current specs.

1:52:33You had said something, you had written something about how you think that this phone is going to be around for 18 to 24 months?

1:52:41Yeah, probably. Now they're thinking about 36 months, probably. Because at the third year it'll be at the $0 price range.

1:52:49Yeah, but I'm interested, I mean, if they do call it the SE without a number in it,

1:52:57is this, they're just gonna keep, are they gonna keep upgrading that line?

1:53:05I don't know.

1:53:06In line, or are they just gonna have this phone and move it down and away?

1:53:10Maybe like three or three years ago from now.

1:53:13And then have some other, you know, have the XE or something.

1:53:15Yeah, exactly.

1:53:16I was gonna say XE.

1:53:17Yeah.

1:53:18I was gonna say it.

1:53:19sexy yeah I think that's what they'll do I think it's a one-off phone sort of

1:53:27like the iPhone 5c was I think if they do that they need to pay us I think if

1:53:34it's called the iPhone I think if it's called the iPhone X II that you and I

1:53:38should both get at least you know I'm not much you know just like I've some

1:53:43basis point. Yeah, one percent. Yeah, well, you know, it doesn't even... come on, don't be greedy.

1:53:50One percent! How much could that add up to? 50 basis points. How much could one percent of iPhone sales add up to?

1:53:58Yeah, right, it's an unknowable number.

1:54:02All right, let me take a break here and thank our third and final sponsor of the show, and

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1:57:47at mailroute.net/tts. Love these guys. What else before we talk?

1:57:56It's mailroot, by the way.

1:57:58Oh, I'm sorry. We've had that discussion before.

1:58:01[Laughter]

1:58:05Well, there's that game we could talk about.

1:58:07Yeah. "Route" and "route" for that word is one of those ones where I don't even know how I pronounce it, if I'm not thinking about it.

1:58:14I do know that I say mail route.

1:58:17- It's really contextual.

1:58:18Because you say route 66, right?

1:58:20- Nobody would ever say route 66.

1:58:22- No one would ever say route 66.

1:58:24- Yeah, but if you were saying like,

1:58:26what route do you take to get to mom's house?

1:58:29- Yeah.

1:58:30- I would probably say route, I guess.

1:58:32I know that I deliberately say mail route with mail route

1:58:36because I feel like it would be so easy to think

1:58:38that it's route, like you're the route admin route,

1:58:42because root is a very common word in networking.

1:58:44And even if I spell it, I just feel like,

1:58:46let me just put it in your head as mail route

1:58:48and then anybody out there who wants to check it out

1:58:50will know how to spell it and nobody, there's no ambiguity.

1:58:53But there's most of those words

1:58:55where there's two ways to say it.

1:58:57I have very strong opinions about the right way to say it.

1:59:00(laughing)

1:59:02And what about the tomato, tomato thing?

1:59:05I've never met anybody in my life ever who says, "Tomato."

1:59:08- Who says, "Tomato?" - Yeah, ever.

1:59:10- No. - It's like the guy

1:59:11who made that song up.

1:59:12just made that up. No, I bet some British people say tomato. Yeah, or like some real,

1:59:20yeah, real jerk. And plus, when that was like a, that was like 100 years ago. Right, and like it

1:59:24was like at a time where like, like people who, you know, like when only like five percent of

1:59:28Americans had been to college, they just started saying words funny, like, you know, like it's sort

1:59:33of affecting a fake semi sort of one toe in the sand British accent just to like sort of self

1:59:40identify as someone who's been to a college on the East Coast. I bet it was a good sign.

1:59:46If you're working in a restaurant or a bar or something like that, if you have a customer who

1:59:51says something about tomatoes, you just know you're in for it. Stick your thumb in that drink.

1:59:57Did you have a guy in the senior year of college? Because lots of people spent their junior year

2:00:05abroad. There was a guy who came back senior year of college who had spent the year in

2:00:11England and came back speaking with a British accent.

2:00:14No, it happened to me in sixth grade. We had a good friend of mine, Mark. His dad got transferred

2:00:23to England after fourth grade. I know he missed all of fifth grade. He might have missed part

2:00:30of fourth grade, too. Maybe he was gone more than a year, but then sixth grade, everybody

2:00:34was excited because Mark was back and he was a popular kid, a real nice kid, smart kid too.

2:00:40And he came back and he didn't really have a British accent, but he said bloody everything.

2:00:44Okay, that I can get Mark.

2:00:47Yeah, because that's a really good... That's one of the great...

2:00:50Yeah. That's like... And at that age, it's like a swear that you can get away with.

2:00:54It's like you can really...

2:00:55You can get away with a British swear.

2:00:57Yeah, it was... And he really pulled it off. We made fun of him at first, but then it just...

2:01:01And then you were doing...

2:01:04The mock-up? No, because you couldn't pull it off. If we tried it, we'd look like... you just couldn't

2:01:09do it, but he, you know, it just came out of his... it just came out naturally. It's like he...

2:01:14Hank says bloody.

2:01:16Oh man, that's a good one.

2:01:17He says... I mean, I think it's from listening to those Minecraft YouTubers.

2:01:21Oh yeah, they're all English. Yeah, that's true.

2:01:24Yeah. Yeah.

2:01:25Yeah, that's a brilliant word. It really is. Brilliant, too. English, the...

2:01:29Brilliant, also brilliant.

2:01:30I think I've got a subconscious right there. The brilliant, the English make terrific use of the word brilliant.

2:01:35We do have that word.

2:01:36Yeah, but they use it better. We have bloody too, but we don't have it in there.

2:01:40No, but it's not used in the same way.

2:01:42It's just so smack dab in the middle of, boy, it sure feels like a swear word.

2:01:48And no, I cannot make a compelling argument that it is a swear, but it just has...

2:01:53No, it's not here. It's not a swear word.

2:01:56Yeah.

2:01:57Firewatch. Oh man, I don't play games and I don't know if that makes me a better critic or not critic even, but a better person to tell you to go buy this game and go play it or not. But I think it kind of does. It's like I just don't have the mindset for, I just don't have the...

2:02:14Well, yeah, I think it depends on the kind of gamer you are. I

2:02:18mean, if you're like, you know, if you're someone who likes

2:02:21first person shooters exclusively, you might not like

2:02:25well, maybe you would though maybe you'd like it as a as a

2:02:27break. Well, sure. Yes, that's that's perfectly possible. Um,

2:02:33if you are exclusively addicted to that particular genre,

2:02:36however, I mean, and I, you know, and I read some of the

2:02:39comments on um steam from some people which you know, just

2:02:43just made me angry because it wasn't exactly the game that they are continually playing all the

2:02:51time. Instead it actually had a story and it was interesting instead of just like shooting zombies

2:02:59repeatedly. But did anybody, was anybody misled? I mean, I don't understand. I guess you could.

2:03:06Well, there was that, there was a sort of ridiculous situation with this game, right?

2:03:11because there was someone who wrote a review, and I think it was on Steam, who was...

2:03:18or it was in a forum someplace, and I can't remember if it was on Steam or what, but it was

2:03:22saying, you know, "I paid the $17 or whatever, and I had a good time playing it for the amount

2:03:29of time that I spent playing it, but I'm thinking about getting my... trying to get my money back."

2:03:38you paid the money, you liked the game, and you're thinking about getting your...

2:03:41So I don't... I want to scrupulously avoid spoilers. I mean, the basic gist of the game

2:03:47doesn't spoil anything, and it's pretty obvious that you play a... I don't even know what the hell

2:03:52you are. You're not really a forest ranger. What are you? A fire watcher. Yeah.

2:03:55I mean, it's like, yeah. So you're, you know, you're up in a tower, and you're in the Pacific

2:03:58Northwest, and you, you know, your job is to... I think it's... I think it's Wyoming. I think it's

2:04:04supposed to be one. And uh and the story unfolds and it is uh a fascinating to me. It's number

2:04:13one it's a beautiful game. It really is just drop dead gorgeous and um what's his name? Ollie

2:04:20Ollie Moss. Have you ever seen the Ollie Moss's Star Wars posters? I guarantee you. I think I

2:04:26believe I have yeah I'm pretty sure that I have. So uh Ollie Moss worked on on setting that the

2:04:31graphics of the game to some degree and it really shows the whole team though.

2:04:36It's just a gorgeous game. You just cannot... I would watch a short film, or not short film,

2:04:43an animated film. I'd watch a feature-length film that looked exactly like Firewatch. It's

2:04:47just got a tremendous look. Well, I think the thing that I like so much about it is how it draws

2:04:53you into the game. Because it starts out... it doesn't start out with any graphics at all.

2:04:57it just starts out by asking you certain questions about choices that you're going to make.

2:05:02Right.

2:05:02Except that it's all setting up the story. It's getting you, it's drawing you into the story,

2:05:09and it's, you know, by the end of answering the questions, you know, you're choked up.

2:05:17Yeah, it sets you off in a melancholy frame of mind.

2:05:21Right.

2:05:22And the game is so well written. It's not trying to be a movie. It's not trying to be a choose your own adventure book.

2:05:32It's a game, and you're playing it, and you're there, and you've got just a fundamental difference from a movie.

2:05:40If it takes a long time to walk from A to B, it takes you a long time to walk from A to B that you don't cut.

2:05:46I mean, you cut days out of the adventure, but you're there.

2:05:50And so you've got this first person view

2:05:55that feels like you're there.

2:05:57It feels like you're doing stuff.

2:05:58But it's obviously-- you're in a story that

2:06:00is really well written with some really intriguing characters

2:06:06and incredible acting talent.

2:06:10The guy who plays the voice of the protagonist,

2:06:15It was the guy from Mad Men who played Harry Crane on Mad Men, Rich Sommer.

2:06:21And he's just-- he's terrific.

2:06:23He was terrific in Mad Men.

2:06:24And he's terrific here.

2:06:25It's a really remarkable character.

2:06:27And the other characters in the film are remarkable too.

2:06:29And the mystery is truly interesting.

2:06:33And it's just evocative.

2:06:36Yeah.

2:06:37And it leaves--

2:06:40I mean, I hope-- hopefully for me, I mean,

2:06:42I hope it leaves enough on the table that there'll be something following.

2:06:45I really hope I would shell out again immediately, since I figured out that I can play it on

2:06:54my kid's computer.

2:06:58It is also a little adult.

2:07:05And that was one of my questions I asked Cable.

2:07:08I was trying to figure out if it was—before I put it on my kid's computer, I wanted to make sure it

2:07:13was okay. And he's 12. And it's, you know, it's very thoughtful. And I think in a good way—whoops,

2:07:23sorry, Siri. I think in a good way it's thoughtful. And then I think the only thing that some people

2:07:30might object to is there's some swearing into it. There's actually a fair amount of swearing into it.

2:07:34But there's not much other than that I think that is bad for a kid.

2:07:39No, I let Jonas play and I was really, really interested if he would take to it or not because

2:07:45Jonas's other interests involved games like Destiny and a little bit more action-packed.

2:07:52I tell you what I think, he took to it immediately. I think maybe that, like you said,

2:08:00said the opening words just text maybe struck him as weird. And we were watching

2:08:04together, I watched him play when he and and I said well maybe the game is

2:08:08loading, maybe it's downloading content or something and he put up with it. And it

2:08:10doesn't take a long time. But then once the game started I think he was

2:08:15a little skeptical of a game where there's no weapons and or at least it

2:08:19doesn't seem like there's any weapons. But the graphic quality absolutely

2:08:22opened his mind to it because it's like he could see that wow this is a good

2:08:26looking game. And he took to it and he beat the game and a lot of his time it took me to beat it.

2:08:31[laughter]

2:08:31Yeah, I found I was not as good at orienteering as I thought I was.

2:08:39No, me neither. And Jonas--

2:08:41That was probably my most difficult part of the game was just like, "Where the hell am I?"

2:08:47Yeah, I really needed like a full-time compass or something.

2:08:50I needed like a parrot on my shoulder. Tell me where to go.

2:08:54There were times.

2:08:55There were times.

2:08:56There were times.

2:08:57There were times.

2:08:58There were times.

2:08:59There were a handful of times.

2:09:00I don't know because I've only—it's not like I've sit there and replayed it

2:09:06and replayed it, so I don't know.

2:09:07But there are times where—I don't think this is—your character has a walkie-talkie

2:09:12all the time and you can contact—and there are times where I called for help like, "Hey,

2:09:17where am I?"

2:09:18And I don't think that everybody got there.

2:09:20I think I might have been particularly lost in that they were there's like a hey if you you know

2:09:26X-amount of minutes have gone by where you were supposed to do

2:09:28y

2:09:30and you're

2:09:32This met far away

2:09:34Why don't you have him call and get a hint?

2:09:37I think I got some help from the game a couple times because I was really lost

2:09:43And it was like one time I came back and I was like I was like, oh I found another

2:09:48I found another fire watch tower.

2:09:50Ooh.

2:09:51And then I realized it was mine.

2:09:55But I thought that I was all the way at the far north of the map.

2:09:59I was all the way north at the far edge of the map.

2:10:02And it turns out I was right in the middle.

2:10:05I was like, oh, no wonder I'm not finding this.

2:10:07Anyway, I cannot say enough good things about this game.

2:10:10I found that for $20, it was extraordinarily fun to play.

2:10:16Just remarkable.

2:10:17And for those of you who don't know, this game, it's from a game developer called Campo Santo,

2:10:22in that they announced a few years ago, they partnered with our friends at Panic,

2:10:27who are a bunch of weird sort of militants who occupy a design studio in Portland,

2:10:41and are in a long-running standoff with the federal government.

2:10:45That's who I was talking about earlier.

2:10:49But they're really nice guys. That's the difference between Panic and some of these other

2:10:53people. They are also against the government forcing Apple to unlock

2:10:57Apple. Right, but they're really nice people at Panic and they are

2:11:01just incredibly obsessive about good design

2:11:05and they've clearly met like their game-making soulmates

2:11:09in Campo Santo because the game is so exquisitely detailed, just

2:11:15little things like did you check out like the some of the books?

2:11:19Yeah, and you can like turn around. I mean, there's there's

2:11:23so many little details like that. I mean, I didn't I need to

2:11:26go back and play it again, because I skipped a lot of that

2:11:29stuff, just to because I was interested in advancing the

2:11:32story. So when I think there's a whole other layer there, I

2:11:36mean, because I one of the things I did after playing the

2:11:38the game was I watched a YouTube video by someone who, you know, spends her time playing games and

2:11:48was going into great detail about, like, speculation about things that were not explicitly

2:11:58said in the game. And it was very interesting, I thought. I mean, I don't think all of it,

2:12:03I mean, I'm certain that all of it is not... What are the odds?

2:12:06All that speculation is not leading somewhere, but a lot of it is.

2:12:10What are the odds that you could find that YouTube video and I could put it in the show notes?

2:12:14I will make that happen one way or the other.

2:12:17Because I would A) like to watch that video and B) I would like to put it in the show notes.

2:12:21I would implore everybody listening to the show, don't look at anything else.

2:12:27If you're thinking maybe you want to play it, just get this game, put it on your Mac.

2:12:31You can get it from Steam.

2:12:32Yeah, just play it first and then you can watch all that stuff.

2:12:34You can get it from Steam for your Mac or your PC and you can get it for

2:12:38PS4 on the PlayStation Store.

2:12:42Can't play it on Xbox, alas, but one way or the other you can play it. I

2:12:47cannot recommend it highly enough. I really was blown away.

2:12:50I was skeptical just because I just don't play games and I thought, "Well, I'm going to buy it

2:12:55anyway

2:12:56just so I can see what it, you know, because I know the Panic! guys and I want to see it."

2:12:59And I'm genuinely curious because the game sounds so unlike any game I've ever

2:13:02heard before.

2:13:03Uh I just found myself I really like was compelled to finish this game

2:13:07Really, and I really really felt you know yeah, I was I was in almost a

2:13:14Not a state of frenzy

2:13:17But like it's not one of those things like like when I read that like when I read the Martian when I read the book

2:13:22The Martian I mean I read it and it's a it's a it's not a long book

2:13:25I mean, it's not a terribly long game

2:13:27But I was very goal-oriented in trying to finish it because I wanted to see what was gonna happen

2:13:34And there's you know moments when you're supposed to feel certain things

2:13:37Maybe you feel sad or whatever and I really felt them. I really it's it's and again

2:13:41Yeah

2:13:41It's just a testimony to the writing and it's a such a great scenario

2:13:44Some of the details the details of the thing remind me just a little just a little bit like sort of like the way

2:13:50Did you watch the show lost?

2:13:53Yeah, yeah sort of like law. Yeah. Yeah, where there'd be like right brands brand names or something like that

2:13:58or just the way

2:13:59You know something was set up and the way that there was like a mystery and some of those things in the mystery might have happened

2:14:04A few years ago and it really reminded me of lost and in a in a very very good way

2:14:10Like I mean that it's nothing but a compliment

2:14:12Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So anyway, go put but better possibly better. Yes. Oh

2:14:17overall

2:14:19overall that are scripted. I mean, you know, I think there are certain episodes of Lost that

2:14:23bring me to tears. However, I think, you know, if you looked at the arc over all the seasons,

2:14:30they kind of... Certainly more cohesive. Like Lost, a version of Lost that was the length

2:14:34of Firewatch might have been the best thing ever. I wonder how good you could do. I wonder, like,

2:14:42if you took all five or six seasons of Lost and you just edited it down, you know, to like,

2:14:49maybe like 20 total episodes. Right, took out all the dead ends. Right, just edit it down to about

2:14:5420 episodes. You might have one of the best shows ever made. Anyway, I cannot wait to see what else

2:15:00these guys come up with. I know that games take a long time, so it'll be a while, but boy, they

2:15:04really hit it out of the park with this. And I know that they've had some success. I know that

2:15:08they're doing pretty well. I have 99% sure Cable Sasser tweeted that they made their

2:15:14made the investment to make the game back on day one, which is great, I think, you know,

2:15:20because these things take years to make, so it's a big, big investment of time, and any kind of big

2:15:25investment of time is obviously a big investment in money, so I'm happy to hear that, but I really

2:15:30hope that this game gets legs and sort of gets like a little word of mouth and just spreads,

2:15:34because it really deserves to. Yeah. I know, it thought of me, the one thing I'd be so glad I

2:15:40I thought of it. It really reminded me of there was in the latter years of his life Roger Ebert

2:15:45was involved in some debates on whether video games could be art and he

2:15:50sided on the argument that no, they're not art not in a way that movies are and

2:15:55You know, I think part of it is he was you know, a little curmudgeonly he's you know, and he's a little older

2:16:00and

2:16:03You know and part of it is I think that it's you know, like any good debater

2:16:06He you know, he took a strong opinion because it makes for a good argument

2:16:09He wasn't a jerk about it in my opinion.

2:16:12You know, I disagreed with him,

2:16:13even as someone who doesn't play games.

2:16:15But I thought it was interesting.

2:16:18This, to me, I had this thought

2:16:20when I completed Firewatch

2:16:21that I wish Roger Ebert was still around

2:16:23because I would love, love to present Firewatch to him

2:16:27as the counterargument to can video game be art?

2:16:31Because if this is an art, then nothing is art.

2:16:34It makes you, if I, you know,

2:16:37what is art is obviously...

2:16:41We should talk about that. Talk about your last year of college, you know.

2:16:47Find the kid from college who picked up a British accent.

2:16:50We're at two hours and fifteen minutes, let's talk about what is art.

2:16:54Boy, I would find it very difficult for anybody to come up with a definition of

2:16:58art that doesn't fit this game.

2:17:01Or at least if your version of art

2:17:04uh...

2:17:04would it quality would would include novels and would include

2:17:09uh... feature films

2:17:12that in the way that if those things can be art and i think most people agree

2:17:16that they can be

2:17:17then the game fire watch is art

2:17:20yet which and you know getting back to my original comment i mean i think is

2:17:23that that is why some people don't like it

2:17:26is because it is our yeah i i i

2:17:29and that is not a m in and their definition of game play is not

2:17:33Right. It's a little bit more like sports, you know.

2:17:37Yeah, perhaps. Right.

2:17:38Although if you watch Stefan Curry play, you could argue that sports are becoming art.

2:17:43So obviously all of these things are, you know, there's blurred lines,

2:17:47you know, there's blurred lines between all these things. But that, you know, it's, to me,

2:17:54I just can't say enough good things about it. And anybody who's listened to this show for a long

2:17:58time. I don't know that I've ever talked about a game on this show ever, and this is episode

2:18:03148, so it's rare. And if this is a game, boy, you know. And I tried looking around and I asked,

2:18:10and SirQsa, of course, who is a real gamer and really, you know, I think, shockingly knows,

2:18:16you know, every video game that's ever been made, he had some suggestions. I was like,

2:18:20"Are there other games like this? Like, am I missing out? Like, is there like an entire, like…"

2:18:25Yeah, there definitely, I mean, there definitely are. What's that Home, not Home Alone,

2:18:30there's a game where you basically come into a house and it's empty and you have to try and

2:18:36figure out what happened. Yeah, I don't know what that is. I think that might have been the one he

2:18:39was telling me to play, but... Yeah, that's supposed to be pretty good too. So it's, it's,

2:18:44you know, I don't know, can't say enough good things about it. Anything else you want to talk

2:18:48about no I just I just want my phone man just want my small phone John I want my

2:18:56small phone back John moles wants a small back everybody can get all the

2:19:05moles that they want at and then some at your website which is very nice website

2:19:12dot comer net I'm gonna say dot net you can't say done you pick take your

2:19:18pick. I've got both. Yeah, go to verynicewebsite.net and you can get all the mulch you want there.

2:19:23You got the Twitter feed which is just @mulch and your other big podcast, the one that's

2:19:31turning this car around. Look at that. It's up to episode 99 already. Holy crap.

2:19:37We 100. We just did 100. I think that just came out the other day.

2:19:41We didn't link it. I was looking at very nice website.

2:19:43I know. I got to get it. I got to get it. So you got turning this car around. That's

2:19:46with ... A little slow.

2:19:47We had a big weekend.

2:19:50That's the show you do with John Armstrong.

2:19:52And then you got the rebound with Dan Morin, where you talk—now turning this car around

2:20:00is the one you talk about parenting, what it's like to have kids in the modern world.

2:20:05Very funny stuff from some really terrible parents.

2:20:07Questionable parents.

2:20:09You've been on the show.

2:20:12I have.

2:20:13And then talk about bad parents.

2:20:15I let my kid play firewatch before I even checked what was in the game

2:20:18And it is the rebound where you talk about technology and it's you know, you know, yeah more like a ripoff of this show

2:20:25Yeah, pretty much and that's with the Dan Morin

2:20:28Well, I'm gonna hear about you can get all of those so you have to you just google them and just type them into overcast

2:20:38Or whatever, but if you just go to very nice website

2:20:40Dotnet you'll find links to all of those shows. I'll put the links up eventually

2:20:44Thank you for your time, John. I really appreciate it, as always.

2:20:51It's always a pleasure.

2:20:52All right. Have a good week.