The Talk Show

324: ‘A Pretty Generic Thing You Stick in a Hole’, With Jason Snell


00:00:00   Katie why do people call you KD?

00:00:02   Can I call you Katie here? Yeah, okay. My first name is Kevin. Uh-huh, right and my second my last

00:00:11   My second name. My last name is Durant or the D KD

00:00:15   This year what percentage you plan on giving on the court 90 95 100 110. What are we looking at?

00:00:25   110 110 I just got off the phone with the Dolan family and they said that they're talking to the Commissioner now

00:00:33   They're looking at working a contractual deal that will allow you

00:00:36   For days off you'll be able to play for the Knicks comments. All right, Dave. That was the last one

00:00:43   I'm sorry. Was that a cousin? How about you? Do you ever come in?

00:00:47   Wrap it up. Okay. I'm being told my time is done. Have a have a great year

00:00:54   What about the Pelicans when you guys play the Pelicans that kind of make you giggle?

00:00:57   Yeah, okay, all right, that's all I got that's it everybody thank you good night, why did why did they call you JS Jason

00:01:07   well

00:01:11   Big fan of January

00:01:14   And

00:01:17   September is the best

00:01:20   And my middle initials a because August, you know, oh man

00:01:24   Do you think Kevin Durant knew that it was Letterman? Yes, I

00:01:29   Have I have a theory on this now now one of the reasons it delighted me that this dropped this gem of a

00:01:37   Perfect letterman moment dropped days before I had already asked you to be on the show

00:01:43   But you know for those who do not remember from your multiple appearances on the show

00:01:50   You and I are both David Letterman fanatics. Yeah fair to say and I

00:01:55   What what percent are you planning to give this season 80 90 oh man

00:02:02   110 under 10

00:02:06   110 all right

00:02:08   110 it is

00:02:10   And then Dave Dave from basketball digest just just notes

00:02:15   110 the way that like the census person would be like how many how many children under the age of 18 do you have in?

00:02:21   The household one two three. We have three three three it is. Okay 110

00:02:26   It's I I just I love the idea that media day

00:02:32   For the NBA was literally being satirized on

00:02:36   Media day for the NBA that literally I mean that that was kind of his bit was always he's a TV guy, but he's also

00:02:45   Simultaneously satirizing everything there is about TV, but for for for the Nets

00:02:50   I mean, I don't know the backstory of it

00:02:52   but I assume for somebody in the Nets PR to be willing to let David Letterman kind of sit in the the media day scrum and

00:03:00   Ask stupid questions to Kevin Durant like bless that person whoever they are

00:03:05   I have a theory and it didn't even occur to me until I was putting together show notes for this and all of a sudden

00:03:12   It popped into my head. Here's my theory

00:03:13   My theory is that Kevin Durant is gonna be on

00:03:16   My next needs no introduction. Oh, yeah, you know, that's a good that's that's good

00:03:23   And then and then they're doing they're doing a bit that we'll see the other side of mm-hmm

00:03:28   On Netflix at some point that makes sense that that checks out. Yeah, because and I kind he's kind of a fascinating figure

00:03:36   He's he's he's I don't know what the word is

00:03:39   I mean, he's obviously a super talented basketball player, but he's also sort of

00:03:45   Anatomical freak he's seven feet tall, but he doesn't play like a center. He plays like a guard and

00:03:51   He's sort of bounced around the NBA had tremendous success. He's just inordinately

00:03:57   Talented but personality wise he's I don't know. What's the word mercurial? He's he's very hard

00:04:05   To get a so anyway, I think he'd be a and I think that Letterman loves that sort of

00:04:12   Subject for that his Netflix show is somebody who we don't really know, right? I

00:04:19   Got to see him

00:04:21   You know not quite up close but every day because he was with the Warriors for a couple of years and yeah

00:04:28   I mean we always like watch the Warriors and we always joke. Oh, hey, that's Steph Curry. He's good at basketball with Kevin Durant

00:04:34   It was like I think I think it was Mike Schur

00:04:37   The the TV producer who had who said this first

00:04:41   but it's like an

00:04:43   alien came down and said I can play your basketball because he's he's the wrong size and

00:04:49   Shape to do what he does and it's like no he's like from another league

00:04:53   Whatever league is out there in the galaxy

00:04:55   That's above the NBA and he for some reason has been sent down here for a while because it doesn't make sense

00:05:01   He's and then yeah, he's an interesting guy. He

00:05:03   He I don't know

00:05:05   I I think he is exactly the type of guy that Letterman would want to talk to and see if he could get some like

00:05:11   Really crack the egg a little bit about right what he's thinking and I kind of feel like this like and and I so I think

00:05:17   Like Letterman surprised him and he didn't he wasn't he didn't know that Letterman was gonna be on the call. I think he knew

00:05:23   Partly through that it was Letterman on the audio, but he wasn't gonna break character

00:05:29   And then he finally did when he asked him. I would they're trying to get Letterman off the line

00:05:38   Pelicans does that make you giggle, you know, I

00:05:41   That made me laugh so hard because I mentioned we went to actually to a Warriors game where they played the Pelicans and I mentioned

00:05:49   To my wife that they're playing the Pelicans and she looks at me and she goes haha and I don't know what she says

00:05:56   That's not a real team and it it became a running joke in our house that the Pelicans was just something you made up

00:06:03   That's not a real there's no team pelicans

00:06:05   That's not a team and then Letterman does the same bit who's like do you hear the word Pelicans and just laugh?

00:06:10   It's I I made for listen for listeners in New Orleans

00:06:14   I mean, I'm not putting the team down but it is oh it's a very odd nickname for a sports franchise and and it sort of

00:06:22   feels like

00:06:24   You know like like with the great Incredibles franchise at Pixar and and they've decided we're just gonna make our own

00:06:34   Universes superheroes rather than rely on Marvel. I mean obviously at this point Pixar couldn't there use Marvel because it's a Disney but

00:06:41   it'd be easier for the the stories they want to tell to just you know, and we'll we'll use some of the

00:06:49   Tropes of superheroism like, you know Frozone is a guy with frozen power and all right

00:06:55   You know Marvel has a guy like that Iceman and you know, there's super fast kid

00:07:00   Who's like the flash and you know, there's there's super power, you know, superpowers are sort of like a list

00:07:06   You can choose from sure but then you you get down the list and you can maybe phone some of them in right and and

00:07:12   For the you wouldn't really make a superhero like something but you know 37 superheroes down the list

00:07:18   it would be the same thing if you were gonna make like a

00:07:20   Pixar movie about a fictional version of the NBA and

00:07:26   You might make up some teams like the pelican right down down at 28 29 30. You're like, I don't know pelicans. Let's just say pelicans

00:07:33   Yeah, and it has no history, right?

00:07:36   So it's also like wait did I miss like if you don't follow the NBA that closely and you know

00:07:41   We don't really in our house. So we are very fair-weather. Oh are the Warriors in the finals. Hooray kind of people

00:07:47   But so you might miss it and then and they changed their name, right?

00:07:51   Because they were the Hornets and then they gave the name of the Hornets back to Charlotte and they got a new name

00:07:55   So there's a lot of reasons why there's not a lot of history built up there, right?

00:07:59   So yes apologies to pelicans fans. I saw them but I saw the Warriors play the Zion Williamson is great

00:08:05   But it is one of those things that it's also kind of a funny name if you well

00:08:10   It's it's not the type of name that you would pick if you

00:08:13   Were like the general manager and the marketing manager and and the owner of the franchise, right?

00:08:20   Like you might pick it if you're a screenwriter

00:08:22   Making a list of fake names and you're not even going to really feature this team in your movie

00:08:26   But like when you're you're all in this is your life. You're going to be a you know, 18 hours a day all year long

00:08:34   Sweating this NBA franchise nothing but pelicans

00:08:38   Yeah, and you wouldn't pick a team like the Pelicans but a name like the Pelicans but you know, there we are

00:08:43   You know New Orleans Jazz, it's right there. Well, they think they used to be in New Orleans. That's why they're called jazz

00:08:50   I don't know how they kept the jazz in Utah. That should have a Utah name like the Utah assault, right?

00:08:55   Utah assault sorry, I've been doing this bit since I was in high school

00:09:00   Utah assault all the local broadcasters and all the local writers are gonna say oh my god

00:09:05   Thank you for giving us the name salt because now we can do all of these like salt puns and like seasoned veterans

00:09:12   And like oh my god, it's gonna be great. But instead they're the jazz. So alright fine. Pelicans is still available

00:09:19   They had the best nickname that told you exactly what city they were from New Orleans and then

00:09:26   Moved to the least jazzy city in North America

00:09:31   Very few lakes in LA by the way for to be fair

00:09:36   Lakers and very few like I do kind of love that I

00:09:41   Somebody talked about like sure again Mike sure and Joe Paz Nansky the sports writer have a podcast and where they talk mostly about baseball

00:09:49   But they propose this idea that if your team moves cities

00:09:52   You should just have to change your name and like as the fan of a of a baseball team that moved from New York

00:09:59   I actually kind of agree like

00:10:01   Maybe you should leave the name behind and if somebody wants to pick it up later, they can pick it up later

00:10:05   but maybe you should come up with a like the the the

00:10:08   Giants is just kind of a random name. But like the the Dodgers are

00:10:13   Trolley Dodgers right from the trolleys in Brooklyn. There are no trolleys to dodge in LA but they kept the name and it sort of just

00:10:20   means

00:10:21   Nothing now and there's an argument to be made that you should let let the let the jazz lay there and maybe one day in

00:10:28   The future another team in New Orleans will pick it up, but that's not what happened. Yeah, I think it's dear

00:10:33   I think that that late 50s

00:10:35   Expansion across North America was different than today's era of franchises moving

00:10:43   Right. It was like almost like a land rush right there where and baseball in particular

00:10:49   It was entirely East Coast like I don't know what the West western most franchise was maybe Kansas City

00:10:56   I'm not great at knowing. No, no st. Louis. I think was the there wasn't a Kansas City team at that point

00:11:02   So st. Louis would have been the westernmost I think oh there wasn't the Royals

00:11:06   No, not the Royals didn't as a major league team wasn't until the 60s. Oh, okay

00:11:13   Okay, I wasn't sure when they came into being in there in Chicago. But anyway, they all traveled by train

00:11:18   They were all like, you know train distances

00:11:21   And there's this whole great

00:11:24   Western part of the country that also has fantastic weather and lots of baseball fans and and so, you know the

00:11:32   Teams like the Dodgers and the Giants, you know, it was it it it didn't feel like they were moving and becoming a different team

00:11:40   it felt like the team was moving and and

00:11:42   conceding New York to the Yankees and

00:11:45   And making a claim to their own great cities, right?

00:11:50   San Francisco deserves a great team and they got a team with a history in Los Angeles

00:11:55   obviously the second biggest city in the country deserves

00:11:58   You know a team full of

00:12:01   Sad-sack losers like the Dodgers. Yeah, exactly

00:12:04   well

00:12:05   I mean and of course the classic story is that the

00:12:07   Dodgers owner knew that he wanted to move to LA and he kinda conned the Giants owner into moving to San Francisco

00:12:13   Really? Yeah

00:12:16   But but you know it worked it worked out for everybody including the Yankees it just yeah we could I mean it's all theoretical anyway

00:12:24   But I can see the point of saying like I was very happy when the Cleveland Browns

00:12:27   Moved to Baltimore that they left the yeah Browns behind and let the new Browns come in and I like that the Hornets

00:12:34   Got I don't care at all about basketball in Charlotte, North Carolina

00:12:37   But I think it's nice that they got their name back and they don't have to be that whatever they were the Bobcats or something

00:12:43   which never made sense and like I

00:12:45   Just I feel like to a certain extent the team

00:12:48   Identity kind of belongs to the city and that you can take your team if you need to but you got to leave the leave

00:12:54   The laundry leave the name by the door on your way out right and now the Browns are good again, finally

00:13:00   But we are a long last they are they are actually good again only took like since Bernie Kosar

00:13:06   Yeah, like literally they haven't been good since before they were not there for a while before Bill Belichick was there. Yep

00:13:14   Anyway, let me take our first break and thank our first sponsor

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00:15:46   All right, you saw the list

00:15:50   Let me start with this I want to get this out of the way

00:15:54   I'm gonna blog about it and I feel like if I put it on the podcast

00:15:57   It'll force me to throw this on daring fireball - that's beautiful. That's that that's the modern now

00:16:02   That's how we do it, right? You got a blog the blog makes a podcast the podcast makes a blog, right?

00:16:06   All right

00:16:07   You're familiar with the rumors the rampant rumors from multiple sources that the Apple watch series 7 was going to have flat

00:16:14   Sides and you know this sort of design language of the the current iPhones and iPads and then it didn't happen

00:16:20   And there was a lot of hmm

00:16:23   Here's my spitball theory on that

00:16:28   What if it is true?

00:16:30   but also but the other the counterpart of it and and there's the sort of the

00:16:35   We were right. It doesn't matter if it didn't happen. We were right Apple canceled it at the last minute

00:16:40   Well, that doesn't make any sense because Apple watch series 7 is clearly all new it is a new form factor with entirely different screen

00:16:47   You can't just throw together

00:16:49   Like days I'll off file it off a little bit

00:16:53   I just jam it in there and now they're both real but here's my theory. My theory is what if the flat side?

00:17:00   Apple watch is real

00:17:02   But it's the new low-end model like what we're about to get in the coming weeks at some point

00:17:09   You know because it was not ready when it was announced a couple weeks ago as series 7 was always intended to be series 7

00:17:16   The new top-of-the-line latest and greatest technologies Apple watch

00:17:20   But what if this flat sides thing?

00:17:22   Was intended and whether it was intended to ship now or maybe it's one of those like off cycle things like the iPhone SE that often

00:17:30   Appears in like March or April or something like that

00:17:33   And therefore it to me would fit with Apple's needs where right now they're still selling the Apple watch series 3

00:17:41   Which is a bit of a shame

00:17:43   I've actually wore my series 3 last week paired with a review unit and it's like this thing's a little long in the tooth

00:17:49   Oh, yeah

00:17:51   And it's sort of crappy that they're selling it to people

00:17:54   yeah, but on the other hand they kind of want that product marketing thing where there is a

00:18:01   Visual oomph of hey if you spend more you get a better looking thing. I

00:18:05   I think that's an interesting theory

00:18:09   I don't I don't believe it would be the low-end watch because I feel like there's still mileage in the SE that they

00:18:15   Released last year. In fact, I'm the thing about the series 3 that that boggles my mind

00:18:20   Is that the SE looks by all accounts you look at it and you're like, this is the entry-level watch

00:18:27   This is what Apple wants the entry-level watch to be and yet whatever their calculations are about how much margin they need to make

00:18:32   they can't get it down to the price where they can pull the series 3 out of the equation and

00:18:37   The series 3 serves a really good purpose. It is it is old. It is long in the tooth

00:18:43   It's got that little screen with the big bezels and all that

00:18:47   But what it does do it gives Apple an entry price to the Apple watch

00:18:50   It lets it compete with a whole level of like fitness trackers that they otherwise

00:18:56   Can't compete with and it feels to me like the SE they can't get it down there to their satisfaction

00:19:02   So they're gonna keep that series 3 around for a while

00:19:05   So could there be another like designed to be even cheaper than the SE version of the Apple watch on

00:19:11   The way at some point to get a tracker market. Maybe my theory about the Apple watch rumor is

00:19:18   Forgive me for being a little more boring about it

00:19:22   But like I think it goes to the heart of how rumors get reported which is Apple leaks

00:19:26   Obviously we get all these rumors

00:19:29   But Apple leaks from weird locations because Apple tries to prevent leaks even though things do leak

00:19:36   They silo off people and they've got supply chain leaks

00:19:39   But they also are trying different stuff that doesn't end up being products people play games of telephone

00:19:45   They hear about something that was true

00:19:48   But isn't true any longer a lot of the gotchas people do when when rumor reports are wrong. I

00:19:53   Really believe that most of those reports were probably true at some point

00:19:58   There are liars out there, but I think most of the people in this stuff who have a batting average

00:20:02   I think what they're getting is information that may have at one time, but it doesn't always stay true

00:20:07   And so when I hear about this flat-sided Apple watch thing

00:20:10   My guess is that it either was or still is a thing that they're working on

00:20:15   But there were some assumptions somewhere in the chain about when it was gonna come out that were wrong

00:20:21   Either they were always wrong or they became wrong when something changed

00:20:26   So they saw a new industrial design for the Apple edge like oh you got you got to know about this

00:20:31   It'll probably be out. I don't know 2021 and it turns out that at some point in that process

00:20:37   Apple said we can't ship this and they pushed it back and that doesn't mean that those rumors are completely

00:20:45   Untrue the inaccuracy may come from the fact that at some point along the way

00:20:49   Apple changed direction and you might say well, why did we hear about it a week before the event that they were totally gonna do this?

00:20:56   I think the answer is

00:20:57   Somebody was talking to somebody who heard something

00:20:59   but you go back far enough in the chain and you realize it was kind of stale information and it probably changed a while ago and

00:21:05   Those people didn't leak. So this is the best they could do

00:21:09   Yeah

00:21:09   And the big hole in my theory is that the Apple watch SE there's only been one model of Apple watch SE so far

00:21:16   And it was only announced a year ago. Yeah, and

00:21:19   Apple tends to at least if we base

00:21:22   base it on the copious data from

00:21:26   two iPhone SEs

00:21:28   They they tend to put an SE model out and then keep it around for years

00:21:35   Let it sink let it sink in price maybe but you like you keep it around and you ride that for a while because it's designed

00:21:40   To be the one that does that that the three still being around is weird and I'm positive that they don't want it to be around

00:21:48   But for whatever reason they just can't kill it and replace it with the three

00:21:52   I don't know. They're making too much money on the SE to replace the three with the SE. I don't know what it is

00:21:58   So supply chain in 2021 be maybe maybe they got a lot of parts for that that series 3 and they're like we got to sell

00:22:04   Through all these parts first before we can get rid of this thing. So my other theory is that

00:22:09   A lot of rumors out there about right the Apple watch hasn't changed in the whatever six seven years

00:22:14   The Apple watch has existed. It hasn't changed. It looks basically the same

00:22:17   Yeah, I know the dimensions are different but like it has the look that we all know is the Apple watch look

00:22:22   So one of the rumors that's floating out there is this idea that Apple is gonna change it up

00:22:27   But not in the way you necessarily think there's this thought about this

00:22:31   ruggedized version of the Apple watch right and I wonder if that's part of the mix here to what Apple's planning for the future of

00:22:37   The Apple watch is that it's a product line where the core of the watch electronically is the same

00:22:42   but they do it in in some things that are different than just saying we have a stainless steel model like a

00:22:48   Proper like ruggedized model and it's still the same internals as the regular one

00:22:52   But it uses different bands and it's rugged and it's a totally different one

00:22:58   And if they did that they could potentially offer other designs of the Apple watch

00:23:03   Which would allow them to kind of like spread out a little bit and say some Apple watches look different from other ones

00:23:09   They're all the same technically

00:23:11   And you can still get the one that works with the bands that you're all familiar with

00:23:14   But we've got a couple new models now

00:23:16   We've got this rugged one and we've got this flat sided fancy

00:23:19   Whatever one and I do wonder if that might be the direction that they're going in the long run is trying to iterate

00:23:26   Outside of you know, like the screen and what the guts of the device are to make watches that look a lot different

00:23:34   Even if they don't work any different

00:23:36   It was a lot of fun that this in my opinion as somebody who isn't in the rumor game

00:23:41   It was nothing but fun to see that the actual Apple watch 7 was a complete surprise and you know

00:23:46   And I like to laugh and cook my claim chowder, but it also is fun

00:23:51   It's fun to be surprised when they announce stuff, you know, everybody likes that, you know

00:23:55   Start tossing out theories and one theory was that maybe the flat sided thing is the rugged Apple watch that Mark Gurman first reported

00:24:02   I don't think that's the case at all. The rugged Apple watch

00:24:05   Has to be something that looks rugged screams rugged because a g-shocks kind of thing

00:24:12   Yeah, it's gonna pass it's gonna be bulky and and totally different but there'll be an Apple watch embedded in it, right?

00:24:18   Yeah, and and Garmin has a terrific business making watches like that

00:24:23   I know, you know, there's a bunch of other fitness tractors

00:24:26   It is it's fairly competitive in the fitness area

00:24:29   But Garmin in particular sort of has a market to their own for the ones that are big

00:24:34   Chunky, you could go rock climbing with it. You can fall off your bike and it's going to be fine

00:24:41   I mean Apple shows people falling off their bike for fall detection

00:24:44   But you kind of don't want to smash your Apple watch screen against a rock no matter which one you have right now

00:24:49   They call them Garmin on their website. They actually call them adventure watches, right?

00:24:53   And that's but it has to the design language has to say to the person buying it

00:24:58   This thing can take a beating so that flat one isn't it but the flap that the thing to me?

00:25:04   I think that they did change

00:25:05   I think they with series 3 to series 4 when you look at them side by side and like I said

00:25:11   I had my series 3 on last week paired to a review unit phone

00:25:15   It it does the the design change going to series 4

00:25:20   It's one of those classic changes where when they made it it was like I see they you know

00:25:25   It's sort of more curvy but then when you go backwards, you're like, ah, this thing looks like a box

00:25:30   It's right

00:25:32   It's like you go from the series 1 2 or 3 or the series 0 and then you get a series

00:25:37   4 5 6 and it's like I see it's a little bit curvier, you know a little bit bigger

00:25:41   But then you go backwards and it's like this thing looks like a box with round sides

00:25:46   Yeah, I tacked on I get it that there's an evolution there. I guess what I would say is that they're all still

00:25:51   recognizably Apple watch as we have come to know it and if you're making an argument at some point that Apple needs to make a

00:25:58   Like a clean break and do a totally different thing

00:26:02   It would need to not look like an evolution of the Apple watch. It would need to look different

00:26:05   I think that the problem is that the Apple watch has been so successful now and is so iconic in a way

00:26:11   when you look at it you cannot look at a person in the news or on TV or in a movie and

00:26:18   Not be like that's an Apple watch when you see it and that is a lot of product value and marketing value

00:26:24   So for Apple to just say we're not making it anymore. We're doing something different

00:26:29   Not that they won't do it

00:26:30   But like they need a really really really good reason to make something that doesn't scan as Apple watch and I don't know if the rumor

00:26:38   Of the flat-sided one was you know?

00:26:41   Was it too subtle?

00:26:42   Will it essentially still look like an Apple watch just subtly different was it oversold in terms of the rumor?

00:26:47   Or is it something that we're not even seeing that's a different style of Apple watch altogether

00:26:51   I don't know and this gets into something from the original Apple watch introduction where they really kind of played it up as part of the

00:26:58   Watch industry right and talked about it being the most accurate watch, you know ever made and it in the watch industry

00:27:08   Watches don't change right like a Rolex Submariner looks the one that Sean Connery is wearing in dr

00:27:14   No from 1961 which was actually like a five or six year old

00:27:18   Submariner that I think Cubby Broccoli like they do like he needs a watch and Cubby Broccoli was like oh here

00:27:25   Let him wear my Rolex

00:27:26   That's something a spy would wear to most people's eyes other than like the scratches it might have accumulated over 60 years

00:27:33   It's almost exactly the same design as a Rolex Submariner

00:27:36   You could try to buy today like that's that's how watches work Rolex doesn't

00:27:41   Jerk their designs around back and forth just to say this is new

00:27:46   It's sort of like you establish a classic and that's it right and then you establish other product lines around it

00:27:51   Which Apple hasn't really done and that's that's sort of what I'm getting at with the idea of do you do a ruggedized one?

00:27:56   And you do something with a different look you could diversify your watch line in that way

00:28:02   Style wise while still keeping the technology in it, you know in a series the same like yeah

00:28:08   I was at the jewelry store the other week and

00:28:10   They had Speedmaster watches there and like they look exactly like the watches that the Apollo astronauts. Yeah. Yeah

00:28:17   Yeah, they're not but they are they're because why would you give up like you've got you've got the astronaut watch

00:28:22   I'm gonna keep selling it right? You've got the watch Buzz Aldrin war on the moon. You're not gonna beat it

00:28:28   You're never gonna beat that for cool. That's like one of the coolest watches ever made

00:28:32   It's exactly true. So that's my theory basically if like six months from now

00:28:37   There's a new iPhone SE and it has flat sides and maybe the price Apple watch Apple watch se yeah Apple watch

00:28:44   I keep saying iPhone se Apple watch se thank you Jason for saving me

00:28:48   Maybe what happened is everybody knew that?

00:28:51   There's gonna be a new Apple watch in September and there's this flat design thing floating around the supply chain

00:28:58   And prototype changes so people put two and two together and think well, that's the new Apple watch

00:29:03   for September, but wasn't it was something else that's

00:29:07   That was never intended to ship now

00:29:10   It's intended to ship six months from now or maybe even a year from now and let the other se have two years as the SE

00:29:17   model

00:29:18   Something like that. That's my theory because it does to me. I think it looks plainer. I don't think that flat side design

00:29:24   I think it's a legit design and looks like something that you could actually see Apple making but that to me looks like a

00:29:32   $199 Apple watch it does not look at all like what would sell for a $500

00:29:38   stainless steel Apple watch or the

00:29:41   Even more expensive or mez models, etc. Yeah, I think that the existence of the current Apple watch se

00:29:47   Would be theoretically an argument against what you're saying

00:29:50   The problem is that the fact that the SE has come out twice now, you know two cycles of Apple watch announcements

00:29:56   And it hasn't moved down the price the price list does make me wonder if there's a problem with it

00:30:02   Like they can't make it right it is not fulfilling the need that the three is fulfilling

00:30:08   you know working with the competitors that are trackers and

00:30:10   Maybe they do go back to the drawing board and say why don't we do a watch OS based?

00:30:16   Fitness tracker so like let's simplify and we want to hit that price point that we want it to be cheap

00:30:22   And we may call it an Apple watch or we may not

00:30:25   But it's it the goal is not to have everything in it every sensor

00:30:29   Like let's let's engineer this to be our place down there at the bottom of the product line where we can compete with other fitness

00:30:36   trackers right well while still being committed to Apple watch up here higher up and you know

00:30:41   most Apple watch buyers won't buy that watch because

00:30:43   It's it really is just a fitness tracker, and it doesn't have any of the niceties of it

00:30:47   It's possible that that's the scenario here is that the SE it turns out you know they built a cheaper Apple watch

00:30:53   But it's really not yeah what they want yeah the Apple watch

00:30:57   Se came out last year, and it is the the Apple watch series 6 form factor

00:31:04   But it doesn't have the EKG feature, and it doesn't have the blood oxygen. Yeah, right

00:31:09   I think it's basically an Apple watch series 4

00:31:13   I want to say it's like an amalgamation of a couple of different Apple watch series right there. They kind of put together

00:31:22   so they couldn't give it a

00:31:25   Series number of its own in order to have something a little lower down on the price list they can't like that the that it's still

00:31:30   The series 3 they know that it has all those issues with its processor and with the screen size and like they they can't want

00:31:37   They keep it there so the real question is is the SE its true successor

00:31:42   Or was the SE sort of something intended to do that couldn't do it

00:31:45   And they went back to the drawing board to make an even cheaper watch right and as much as our developer friends

00:31:50   Are sort of like sigh because now there's this other screen size with totally different. It's not just shrunk

00:31:58   It's a totally different design language for the series

00:32:02   before for

00:32:04   screens that their Apple watch complications and their apps have to support well Apple has to support all that too because they're selling a

00:32:12   Brand-new watch and if they're gonna be selling this brand new you know to a customer brand new

00:32:17   Series 3 Apple watch that means watch OS has to support it for at least two years

00:32:23   I would think as a minimum my favorite watch face is utility which is one of those pre

00:32:30   Series 4 watch faces and this is one of those examples where I mean my argument is that Apple should update all those watch faces

00:32:36   For the bigger screens, but I think one of the reasons they don't is because they're they got to support them on the

00:32:42   Series 3 they're like they can't not have watch faces for series 3 so they keep it around and it's it's a face that will

00:32:49   Work with the series 3 complications and that smaller screen size and so yeah

00:32:53   Everybody's being held back by that device being there and again if they made a low-cost tracker

00:32:59   Maybe you know maybe it's safer

00:33:02   It's easier for them to say it only supports a certain number of faces, and it only supports the certain kinds of apps

00:33:08   It doesn't need to be a full-on Apple watch or maybe it can be I don't know, but it's an interesting idea

00:33:13   I like I think Apple watch is fascinating

00:33:16   And this is why we've been talking about it all this time

00:33:18   Because there's a lot of potential there for Apple to do way more than they've done

00:33:21   During the first handful of years of its existence, and I think it has been a successful product for them

00:33:27   I think it's probably been maybe even more successful than they expected and

00:33:31   So where do they go from here?

00:33:33   How does this thing change over the long haul and can they do more than just sort of a new model every year?

00:33:39   Yeah

00:33:40   We know what the big three fitness stats are because it's one of those things that they got right in addition to this sort of iconic

00:33:46   Industrial design where you can just tell like you said when you're watching a Colbert showing like oh Stephen Colbert's wearing an Apple watch

00:33:52   You know it the big three one of the things they got right are the Rings, right? You've got your calories

00:33:58   Your exercise minutes and your stand hours and a watch that only did those

00:34:04   There's an awful lot of people who you like and you're like, oh, but if you spend another

00:34:08   $150 you can get EK in there like no no. No, I want I want the exercise

00:34:12   I want the exercise and the stand and the calories

00:34:15   Yeah

00:34:15   and and maybe maybe there no apps other than the Apple apps on there and it's a slimmed down number of apps and there's no

00:34:20   Third-party apps and it really is more like a watch OS based fitness tracker than it is an Apple watch as we know it today

00:34:27   And there's a market for that without necessarily eroding the whole Apple watch market

00:34:32   Anyway, that's my spitball theory

00:34:35   I'm coming around. I'm coming around. It's like they've got to the two markets. I see them

00:34:39   Looking at and thinking hmm. There's that rugged Garmin g-shock market and then there's the fitness tracker market, right?

00:34:47   And you see some of the people with the fitness trackers are really really small. They're almost more like bracelets than watches or really?

00:34:53   They are bracelets. So I would say those are the two markets they're looking at

00:34:56   All right. What about this? I wrote about this a little bit. I have it in our notes

00:35:00   No lightning for you iPhone users. No lightning for you. You have to go to USB C. No, that's not true

00:35:06   I still don't think I don't care what the European Union says

00:35:09   I don't think there's ever gonna be a USB C Apple watch or now I'm saying Apple watch iPhone

00:35:14   I don't know. I could see it at some point regardless of what the EU does. I also think that Apple

00:35:22   Kind of doesn't want ports anymore

00:35:25   And the question is sort of like well

00:35:28   What are ports good for and ports do have?

00:35:30   advantages that including the fact that they charge faster and that they do faster data transfer and that at least the way

00:35:38   Apple's devices have been engineered for a while now

00:35:41   Having the port is sort of the only way to save something that is otherwise basically a brick

00:35:45   But you know, there are other options like Apple has experimented with the smart connector stuff on the iPad

00:35:54   Which is a data connection as well as a power connection. It's not fast, but it is a data connection

00:36:00   You could imagine a mag safe version that actually also has some data connectors

00:36:04   You know

00:36:04   If you get the right cable and you can plug it into a computer and you can do a reset on it or something like that

00:36:10   I think I

00:36:12   The longer we go the less terrified I am of the idea of a portless iPhone

00:36:18   but I also realized that a portless iPhone can't happen until

00:36:23   Apple is

00:36:26   Sure that it isn't going to cost it a fortune in support when people brick their devices

00:36:32   Right like so I had this like I have faith on this level that it's in Apple's own

00:36:37   self-interest to make sure that the biggest problem with having a portless iPhone which is

00:36:42   What happens if it breaks is?

00:36:45   Not a problem because that is gonna come down on Apple like Apple has to support all of those devices

00:36:49   You know plugging in your iPhone is a great way to get your iPhone back up and running if something dies

00:36:54   So I think it could happen. I'm not putting it past them. They put USB C on everything else

00:36:59   They could put it on an iPhone

00:37:00   But I do think that the way they've been going is they want to make ports obsolete

00:37:06   the European Commission's

00:37:08   Decision draft decision to say all all these devices including all phones must have USB C ports

00:37:15   prompted me to get my

00:37:18   Here's why I think the iPhone is still on lightning and will continue to be post off my chest most of the time

00:37:24   I have the idea that I think I could get this out in about a

00:37:28   Thousand to fifteen hundred words and it'll take me a day and I'll do it and then boom it spirals and it's

00:37:35   4,000 words and it's taken me a week and I haven't showered and you know, where's where's John?

00:37:42   Oh, he's you know, don't dance. It's 4 p.m. And you haven't had lunch yet. Yep. I know it don't bother your father

00:37:47   Right. I thought this was gonna be one of those. I was like this is gonna be awful

00:37:52   This is gonna take me some I've got so many thoughts

00:37:55   I think it requires so much nuance and everybody just wants that the proponents of USB C

00:38:00   Just want to say I want one plug that I can take everywhere

00:38:04   I've already got you I have to have USB C for my iPad and and or my MacBook and I'm all in on Apple stuff

00:38:11   Anyway, right. I've got a MacBook. I've got an iPad Pro. So I've got these USB C ports USB C has higher capacity

00:38:18   you know, you can charge up to 85 watts I forget what the

00:38:22   Maximum speed is and it does data much faster and you can you know

00:38:28   Do things now like shoot ProRes video which is like six gigabits per minute and or gigabytes per minute

00:38:36   I forget how it might be six gigabytes per minute. It's it's humongous

00:38:40   And you got to get it off the phone and getting it off the phone with a lightning cable that maxes out at USB

00:38:46   C two speeds is sort of you know, it's no it's ridiculous

00:38:51   slow I get it

00:38:53   That's one of the strongest arguments for USB C is just that if Apple has these pro phones that are just consuming so much data

00:38:59   That you might actually need to get a decent cable connection in there to get all that stuff off all sorts of good reasons to go

00:39:07   To USB C and like I wrote in my piece like when iPads moved to USB C. You can look at my reviews

00:39:12   I never complained about it. It was you know, and I'm in the middle. I have me personally

00:39:17   I've got all of these cables everywhere. I'm fine with it if they did it. It's okay, but

00:39:23   That argument that the proponents of that are single-minded in favor of the technical advantages of USB C and the convenience

00:39:32   advantages for them personally

00:39:34   based on all the stuff they already have and just having one plug they could take with them to a hotel when they travel and

00:39:40   They're not looking at it at all from Apple's perspective of having like seriously like a billion

00:39:48   iPhone users around the world most of whom

00:39:52   don't I I believe most iPhone users certainly don't own a Mac of any kind and

00:39:57   Probably don't own an iPad, you know, and they might not you know, many of them

00:40:02   It's the only thing that we would call a personal computer is their iPhone

00:40:05   These people do not want to replace their cables and I cannot emphasize to underline that enough times with a thick enough

00:40:13   Oh

00:40:15   Sharpie, I know the pandemic has made this harder, but there was a period in there where?

00:40:20   it was still very easy to go to hotels and almost always find a clock radio with a

00:40:27   With a big iPod connector on it the 30 pin connector

00:40:31   Yeah, because everybody invested in that ecosystem because the iPhone was so popular now look there is an argument to be made that

00:40:38   That that's why you want everything on USB C because you don't want to have hotels

00:40:44   Investing in these things that don't do the right port for half for the iPhones but do for Android or vice versa

00:40:50   Everybody wants everything to be standardized great

00:40:53   Like I get that argument but your argument is something that us very techie people

00:40:58   I think are so easy to cast aside. It's a little bit like the new version of Safari

00:41:03   Where we all talked about it over the summer, but then regular people just get their software update and they immediately say

00:41:09   Oh, what the hell is this? How did this happen? Like how was this allowed to happen?

00:41:13   We're like, yeah, we know we could have told you well guess what?

00:41:16   Everybody who has an iPhone who gets a new iPhone that doesn't have the right plug and every accessory that they've bought over the last

00:41:24   Five seven years is no longer functional without an adapter or a new plug or something like that

00:41:31   They're gonna be really angry about it and which is not to say that that's a blocker, right?

00:41:36   That that's not a reason not to do it Apple already did it once but it is a reason to be

00:41:40   Really really sure that when you make the change again a thing

00:41:44   I think people don't think about enough if Apple makes this change

00:41:47   It needs to stick because Apple is not gonna make a generation of iPhones that have a different port and then the next year a different

00:41:54   One right the last time they did this they were committing to lightning for a long time

00:41:59   So if they do it again if it's to USB C, it needs to be like

00:42:04   Confident that it's gonna stay there because it doesn't want to move again

00:42:12   Phil Schiller introduced lightning in

00:42:14   2012 somebody dug this up on Twitter. I forget who sent me the mention or something. It was the 2012

00:42:21   iPhone 4 introduction

00:42:24   and

00:42:26   obviously in

00:42:28   2012 Steve Jobs was

00:42:30   Dead he died in

00:42:33   2011 so it was the first iPhone introduction

00:42:36   I mean, obviously the iPhone 4s was introduced days before he died so he wasn't there for that

00:42:42   But so it wasn't the first Steve jobless

00:42:45   iPhone introduction, but it was the first one where he was dead

00:42:49   Phil Schiller handled the the heavy lifting of the keynote and introduced the lightning port on the iPhone 5 and

00:42:58   Said at the time it was it would be their port for the next decade to come

00:43:03   And somebody posited well then they're definitely gonna keep it for 10 years because Phil Schiller is gonna want to be proven

00:43:08   Right that it was 10 years and I'm like Phil Schiller does not care if it was eight years or nine years or ten years

00:43:14   I mean a decade is you know a loose term he

00:43:18   wasn't like he was promising 10 years of lightning but

00:43:22   That it is true though that in all of the years 15 generations of iPhones

00:43:27   they've switched once and the switch that they made the one the first time was from a

00:43:33   Port that they had invented

00:43:35   It wasn't in the original iPod you might remember when they switch because first two

00:43:41   iPods used firewire and

00:43:43   Actually generation used the dock connector actually had a firewire port on them

00:43:49   Well with a little flap that you could cover it up with because otherwise, you know, everything would get in there and destroy it

00:43:55   Yeah

00:43:57   My thing is it's I think it's too late now to switch to USB C

00:44:01   And I think that it was never a good time for the iPhone to switch to USB C. I think it is

00:44:05   extremely telling like Apple isn't the Apple that we knew when you and I were younger and and computers were

00:44:14   the the most casual person who bought a computer was still somewhat of a nerd compared to the general public right like

00:44:21   everybody didn't have computers and then eventually especially with the iPhone now they do and Apple serves a

00:44:28   very

00:44:30   Different market with people like that and I think it is extremely telling that last month

00:44:36   Apple introduced two brand new

00:44:39   mostly consumer priced

00:44:42   iPads the iPad mini at $500 and the new no adjective iPad starting at 329 and

00:44:49   The just plain iPad still has lightning

00:44:54   It's a different market and for those people like people who just want a plain old

00:45:00   Right at this point we can say it's an old, you know the old style iPad

00:45:04   it it speaks to the

00:45:08   their

00:45:10   Understanding of the different markets out there

00:45:12   I don't I don't think I agree with that just because that old iPad has lightning because the old

00:45:18   iPad design has lightning and it's cheap because they haven't changed the design right and they they

00:45:22   Updated the mini to use the iPad Air design which last year got the USBC so state-of-the-art is USBC

00:45:29   But they're not going to go back and insert USBC in the old cheap iPad because it is

00:45:34   Basically a relic from five years ago that they update just to keep it alive

00:45:39   So I don't think that necessarily says anything about their philosophy about connectors

00:45:44   I think that the USBC on the Mac and on the iPad obviously they've completely embraced it

00:45:50   But you know the thing is I mean and also I would throw out there

00:45:53   I suspect that if Apple could have seen the future they wouldn't have introduced lightning

00:45:58   because lightning and USBC are pretty similar and USBC solves most of the problems that lightning solved and but but the

00:46:05   USBC was so slow in coming along that Apple basically

00:46:08   Invented their own thing first

00:46:10   But now it's everywhere on iPhones and on their trackpads and their mice and their air pod chart

00:46:19   To charging ports are all lightning right? It's this light duty

00:46:22   charging

00:46:24   Leaving data aside charging plug that they've invested so much in and it takes I'm not it's not I'm not putting them past them

00:46:32   To have a grand master to strategy to bring everything else to USBC

00:46:37   What gives me pause on the iPhone is just that they seem to also have this other grand master strategy

00:46:43   Which is getting rid of all the ports and does that on that particular product because right the I?

00:46:48   The iPad and the Mac adopted USBC a long time ago

00:46:51   But the iPhone has just steadfastly not and there's got to be a reason right there's got to be a reason

00:46:58   That they don't want to do that otherwise they could have put it on the pro models a couple of years ago

00:47:03   And just said well pro models. They need more

00:47:05   We're doing USBC up there and instead they just they it feels like they either don't want to or they're not ready

00:47:12   But I think don't want to is probably the answer that when they remove the headphone jack and you mentioned about like water ingress and things

00:47:20   Like that you can make a waterproof USBC device

00:47:22   But I think it is telling that Apple's one portless device the Apple watch is the one where they actually say yes

00:47:28   Go ahead and swim with it right like it would be easier for them to

00:47:33   Do true waterproofing if they could get rid of that port and they built magsafe so that they've got a new charging

00:47:40   Infrastructure like all the pieces are there to say they don't want another port on the iPhone

00:47:45   they think the port is the problem for a

00:47:47   device as mobile as an iPhone I

00:47:51   Think if you showed the typical user and the problem with the I I think that there's a very big difference

00:47:57   I think with iPad Pro and and MacBook pros the people who buy them tend to be more

00:48:06   Lowercase p pro they tend to the reason they're spending more for these higher price more capable faster

00:48:13   Devices is that they are more, you know, they actually need them for their work or they're more

00:48:20   They're just enthusiasts technical enthusiasts and they want the better product

00:48:25   They want a nicer product and they're willing to pay for it and they're willing to put up with things like new ports and getting

00:48:31   New cables and stuff like that

00:48:32   The problem with the iPhone is even with the pro and I think it's great that they really are

00:48:36   Differentiating the iPhone

00:48:39   iPhones pro from the non pros with actual not just decoration like shiny steel instead of matte aluminum

00:48:46   But actual technical improvements like it's seriously more advanced camera system

00:48:51   I think that's great

00:48:53   And I really think that that justifies like the $200 price difference from an iPhone 13 to an iPhone 13 Pro

00:49:00   I think you get 200 I said this on my last episode with Matthew Panzarino

00:49:04   Yeah that it's $200 worth of camera alone in there and if you combine it with the Pro motion display

00:49:11   You know

00:49:11   You really feel like you're getting 200 bucks worth of actual technical don't even even if they looked identical and they both use the exact same

00:49:19   Stainless steel or aluminum finish you feel like there's 200 bucks worth of stuff in there

00:49:24   The problem for Apple is there's there's a gazillion

00:49:28   people who are not pro at all who just buy the pro models because they either want the camera or they just want the nicest iPhone or

00:49:35   Yeah, you know they like the color better for sure right people just go in and go I like that color better

00:49:39   And they're like well, that's $200 more and they're like well, okay sure I don't care

00:49:44   And see well eyes I still think and then thing to me is if they switched now

00:49:51   They switched with lightning and then they kept it for at least nine years, right?

00:49:55   It would be 2012 through 2021 are all lightning and so if they switch next year

00:50:01   It would be nine years of lightning if they switch to USB C is USB C going to be around for the next nine years

00:50:07   I I don't think so. I don't or at least I don't think it's gonna be state-of-the-art

00:50:11   I really don't so this is where I think the eat that we're segueing into the EC thing. Yeah

00:50:16   So I I'm gonna give a little bit of a defense of USB C because USB C is as much a port

00:50:24   As a connection standard right it is a port and it's way better than USB A because there's only you can plug it in either

00:50:30   Way and it doesn't matter and we already have seen that there's all sorts of kinds of things that use that port including

00:50:35   USB C various versions of USB 3 that run on that USB C port

00:50:40   Thunderbolt that runs on that USB C port and my counter-argument would be the USB a port because the USB a port

00:50:47   Basically came into existence

00:50:49   in real the real world in 1998 when the iMac came out and

00:50:54   There's still USB a stuff in 2021

00:50:57   Okay, so that USB a has had like a 24 year run of that connector now what has run over it has changed

00:51:06   And it reached its limit at some point, but that connector was able to do USB 3 kind of speeds

00:51:12   And that's a far cry from what was there in 1998

00:51:15   It's also true that and I did this you can take a hockey puck mouse from the original iMac and plug it in to my iMac

00:51:22   Pro that's got USB a ports and it works

00:51:25   It works or you can use a little adapter and plug it into one of the new iMacs that only has USB C and it

00:51:30   Totally works, so I guess what I'm saying is I kind of believe that as ports go the USB C plug that shape

00:51:38   will probably be with us for a while at least potentially because

00:51:43   Within that plug you can evolve the connection technology

00:51:47   And we've already seen that like USB C has USB 3 it has

00:51:50   Thunderbolt like there's a whole bunch of stuff that can live inside that plug and the plug it might

00:51:55   Survive for a long time because the USB a plug which was a terrible plug survived for an awful long time

00:52:01   So I think that would be my counter-argument is USB C as a pretty generic

00:52:06   Thing you stick in a hole might have legs

00:52:11   That's not to say that I think that it should be mandatory

00:52:14   But I do think that there is at least a lot of innovation that can probably happen inside that plug

00:52:20   Where you're changing what you know and they'll be in

00:52:23   Compatibilities and everybody will get frustrated because they'll be like what do you mean I can only plug this into this kind of port

00:52:28   It plugs into this other computer

00:52:30   Why you know you take a thunderbolt thing and plug it into an iPad air and it won't work because it only does USB C

00:52:36   It doesn't do Thunderbolt like there's a lot of frustration

00:52:39   But at least the plug is the one plug and I so I that would be my defense of USB C

00:52:44   Is is USB a had a long run USB C is actually way better

00:52:48   just because you don't have to plug it in twice to plug it in right and it may survive on that even as the

00:52:54   Underlying technology using that plug keeps changing. I think you're right that will see USB C

00:53:01   sockets

00:53:03   For the rest of our lives

00:53:05   Maybe the rest of our lives and it might be on the I might be it might be the output of

00:53:10   Chargers that you stick in the wall for a very long time

00:53:13   Yeah, I just do not believe that nine years from now. It'll be the best Apple can do for the thing that you

00:53:20   Use for data to get out of your iPhone now, maybe it'll all be wired

00:53:24   Maybe the plan is to it'll all be wireless and they've got a new wireless thing in mind that will transfer things like

00:53:32   humongous ProRes video at speeds that are comparable to

00:53:37   Thunderbolt or something like that wireless or maybe it's some other but I Apple likes to make

00:53:45   New plugs and the new plugs they make they are to serve

00:53:49   purposes of

00:53:51   This is really nice and and a great new example is the way you plug the new iMacs the 24 inch

00:53:58   iMac

00:54:00   M1 iMacs into power and you know what else they really really like of late

00:54:06   magnet

00:54:08   magnets I

00:54:10   Always every time they come out with something else with magnets

00:54:12   I always think of that scene in the graduate where the guy comes up the Dustin Hoffman and he goes I got once I got

00:54:18   One word for you plastics plastics. That's a future plan

00:54:21   I want to go to some if I time-traveled back like ten years ago

00:54:25   I'd go to somebody and I'd say I got one word for you magnets

00:54:28   It's all magnets all the way down. I

00:54:31   Would love something like magsafe

00:54:36   But like the magsafe from max of your

00:54:40   but tinier like way tinier, yeah, and

00:54:45   You know and and the the what do you call the thing on the back of the iPad pros the data connector the smart connector?

00:54:53   smart connector

00:54:54   Something like that and it could do

00:54:56   Charging it could do data now that at very high speeds the iMac

00:55:02   24 inch iMac, I mean they have that they basically in the wired in the wire that's going there is also Ethernet and

00:55:09   So and then the Ethernet's on the brick, so they're already sort of like headed in that direction. So the idea is

00:55:14   What's great about magnets is that they hold fast?

00:55:18   But they also hold properly aligned so that all the pins are touching like a port

00:55:22   But it's a magnet right and you could then do data and power over it. Yeah, and I wonder looking at the

00:55:31   EU EC

00:55:33   Regulations and they carve out a big exception for wireless which still drives me nuts that we call these things wireless when they have to

00:55:40   Be touching right? It's just like I know that it's I'd someone of my own

00:55:44   It's like my crusade against Ariel versus Helvet. Well more people care about that

00:55:50   But I it really bothers me that that we call

00:55:53   Wireless charging this thing that you have to be in physical contact

00:55:57   like we wouldn't call Wi-Fi wireless if you had to have your device touching a

00:56:02   Sir, you know like if you if you lose contact you lose your network

00:56:07   Well, nobody would call that wireless networking, but we call it wireless charging. But anyway inductive charging

00:56:13   The aka wireless is is accepted in the EC

00:56:17   Guidelines so a device that only charges by what they call wireless

00:56:22   Which is inductive is exempt and wouldn't need to include USB C and and it's not like they have the Apple Watch in mind

00:56:30   I don't think but the Apple Watch therefore is

00:56:32   Would fall under that and it's not like the EC is proposing that Apple has to add a USB C port to Apple Watch

00:56:40   There are their description already says that you know such a price

00:56:44   It's it's products that have charging ports have to include USB C

00:56:49   Would something like what we're saying like a smart connector with a magnetic connection like, you know, maybe two

00:56:56   Two make, you know little smart connector things on the bottom of the phone

00:57:01   But then the cable would connect magnetically would that count as a port or would it count as wireless? I

00:57:06   I think it's a question like if you put data on a magnetic connector

00:57:12   even on the mag safe that we've currently got if there was if there was data in there would the

00:57:17   European Commission say hmm. No, that's not now. It's not just charging now

00:57:22   You're doing data and you should do USB C instead and and from their vantage point

00:57:26   I would say also what they don't want to have happen and I think it's an admirable goal is they don't want everybody to go

00:57:33   To charging paddles and have 80 different charging paddles each one for an individual phone model, right?

00:57:39   They don't want that kind of a terrible kind of thing

00:57:42   The thing is though that the Qi charging is a standard and what Apple is doing and this is unlike lightning

00:57:48   Apple is building on top of Qi so they've got Qi charging support any

00:57:54   Charger will do but then mag safe does a little bit more and that might be their model going forward is yeah

00:58:01   yeah, yeah, we got the standard but

00:58:03   Standard Plus is us and we do more with mag safe

00:58:09   Then then you get from from Qi and would that work?

00:58:12   Is that the kind of Apple like game that would pass muster as being like, alright

00:58:17   well

00:58:18   you support the standard and we're not gonna stop you from doing more than the standard as long as you support the standard or

00:58:23   Are they gonna be like hold on wait a second?

00:58:25   You mean if you want to transfer data, you have to buy a proprietary cable that only Apple sells

00:58:29   And would they make a stink about that? And I don't know

00:58:33   I mean that's the problem with with

00:58:35   Regulation like this is that like I appreciate the idea that we don't want a wasteland where every phone has its own proprietary charger

00:58:41   but I also don't appreciate the idea that

00:58:43   everything in technology has to basically arrest its development because a

00:58:48   Bureaucratic group has decided that we've reached Nirvana

00:58:52   They're regularly one they're regulating the thing that that the market has already solved and sure it didn't resolve down to one

00:58:59   Well, it resolved down to two and it everybody's fine with it. Nobody's clamoring

00:59:04   Yes, in fact if you look at the charger side of it

00:59:07   It's resolved down to one right like there is no doubt like that the new Kindles just got announced like a week ago

00:59:13   Kindle paperwhites and they've got USB on them USB C. Thank God for years. It's been the awful micro USB and

00:59:21   It's like okay

00:59:24   It is gonna happen that every device really on the charging side all these little devices

00:59:30   Almost everything's gonna have USB C anyway, and it's good and all the chargers that they're gonna sell are gonna be USB C

00:59:36   Even if it's lightning on the other end like the world has already kind of adopted this so it's unclear to me why

00:59:43   we need

00:59:45   more than that and and

00:59:47   because I mean when you and Ben talk about this on Stretachery, it's like

00:59:51   Sometimes markets don't work markets do need to be regulated there need to be rules, but the power of

00:59:58   Markets is that in ideal circumstances you get a result like this

01:00:03   Which is finally after a lot of waste after 15 years of dumb stuff

01:00:07   We have a single plug that pretty much everybody's gonna use and that that part is great

01:00:11   Like USB C is gonna be with us for the rest of our lives

01:00:14   Even if it's only in like just every gadget that charges as USB C

01:00:20   The the the the line from somebody at the EC that I think it was the same clown who?

01:00:26   Said that if Apple wants to still include lightning they can just put two ports on their iPhone

01:00:30   I it's like he said we're not we're not preventing anybody from innovating

01:00:36   it's like but the the second half of that that goes unsaid is

01:00:39   We're not preventing anybody from innovating we're just saying you can't

01:00:45   You can't invent anything better than the rest of the competition

01:00:50   Which is actually innovation because I'm saying like but like that this to me is what Apple does like

01:00:57   And it's a you mentioned it like when lightning

01:01:00   Debuted nine years ago. It was so much better than any other

01:01:04   Charger on any other phone or phone like device than anybody had ever seen

01:01:10   It was so much better than micro USB and and and so much better than the 30-pin

01:01:17   Adapter that Apple replaced it with and it's like what if Apple has something in mind that does to lightning what lightning did to the?

01:01:25   30-pin adapter that and it and also would be way better than

01:01:29   USB C and you know maybe well

01:01:33   Yeah

01:01:34   And and my my guess is that if Apple put support they'll just use

01:01:38   USB C because they seem happy with it and they could do right they could do Thunderbolt in there and like I think the connector

01:01:44   Is not the problem

01:01:45   I think it's exactly what we've been talking about here, which is Apple seems to be looking at the port and saying

01:01:51   But what if we did this through something that was external that I wouldn't have to worry about

01:01:57   Ingress into there or the port hardware failing because there are no moving parts, and it's aligned magnetically

01:02:04   And if you combine that one physical combination or connection type with the wireless stuff that we've got

01:02:11   We've got this solved, and we don't need it anymore the one thing

01:02:14   I know you've set up an iMac too

01:02:16   And it's like plugging the iMac thing into the back of the new iMac is fun. It's so satisfying

01:02:22   I god I did it and it's like I'm sitting there setting it up on my guy

01:02:26   I can't you know you get a new computer, and you're excited, and you know and you also you know you get these review units

01:02:33   You know you have a deadline so you kind of want to get it going and you know so you and it's like

01:02:36   Instead of wanting to turn it on I'm like I'm just gonna sit here and play with the plug and it's like chung chung chung

01:02:43   Chunk chunk, but like you mentioned that thing and I think it's really interesting is magnetically connected

01:02:50   it lots and lots of power and

01:02:52   High speed data because that's how the Ethernet comes in it does it do gigabit Ethernet, or yeah

01:02:59   yeah, so gigabit Ethernet speeds over a

01:03:02   magnetic connection yeah, I think they're literally you know I think they're literally putting the

01:03:08   Ethernet

01:03:10   Wires and attaching them to pins on the back, so it's like there

01:03:15   They just hardwired it in but I think this opens up you get a little bit of maybe this angle of Apple's vision for the future

01:03:21   Which Apple's never done docking stations?

01:03:24   But you could argue that this iMac kind of has a docking station

01:03:28   And it is one way to make your computer thinner and cleaner and lighter and all of those things that Apple likes is to say

01:03:34   hide that plug

01:03:37   Behind your desk, and I start to wonder about like a future a bigger iMac or maybe they'll call it iMac Pro

01:03:43   It's like I really like that brick on that iMac and I start to wonder

01:03:47   Could there be optionally like more stuff on that brick because I got a bunch of crap under my desk

01:03:53   Like cables snaking out of my iMac to hubs under my desk in order to do that

01:03:59   And I wonder if Apple could be like nah we get it

01:04:01   We don't want those ports on the back of the computer either we put them on the brick and on a laptop

01:04:05   What would it be like it'd be a little different because you don't want to like yank out your hard drive or something when the somebody

01:04:11   Brushes against your computer

01:04:12   But there is stuff like when you're docked at a desk with your laptop

01:04:15   That it would certainly be a lot cleaner if you could do your magsafe thing and then everything kind of did the right thing and now

01:04:22   Did the drives and did all of that stuff? I don't know how much of this they I'm sure they've talked about it

01:04:28   But how much of this will actually come to fruition, but I do think there's some truth in that of like Apple

01:04:33   idealizing that one way to get their idealized products is

01:04:37   To push some of this junk like down the down the wire if they can

01:04:42   and and to make a cleaner experience kind of at the at the

01:04:47   little beautiful object that Apple has made and sold to you right and they're absolutely not going to do it and

01:04:53   Wouldn't work anyway by going to the USBC

01:04:57   Consortium before they unveiled the products and saying here's the idea. We've got fellas

01:05:02   We're gonna do this and here's some schematics

01:05:04   Can you imagine that iMac with like a USBC port on the back and the center is like yep

01:05:08   There's your power just plug this plug this thing in and it's USBC like I just can't envision it

01:05:13   And that's what they do on the laptops right now, and it's fine

01:05:16   But the rumors are that they're also trying to not do that in the future that they that they really do think

01:05:23   magnetic attach

01:05:25   Magsafe for laptops is superior, which I would agree. I bought one of those things just like, Syracuse

01:05:30   It's actually the same one that he bought I have one of those little things that pushes into the USBC

01:05:34   port on my laptop

01:05:35   That's magnetic and then it's got a little magnetic cable

01:05:38   And so I'm all I'm back to mag safe even despite Apple right it's superior. It's a better thing for laptops

01:05:45   Sorry, it really is all right. Let me take a break here and thank our next sponsor also a brand new sponsor

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01:07:02   Let's see what else we got

01:07:06   iPhones 13 and brave I

01:07:09   Used my last show with panzerino to talk about the iPhone 13s in detail, but I was intrigued

01:07:14   I listened to the latest version of upgrade with you and and the melodious voiced Mike Hurley

01:07:21   Speaking about your iPhone 13 purchases, which iPhone 13 did you buy for yourself?

01:07:26   Jason so I I bought a iPhone 13 mini for myself

01:07:31   Because the the size the size and the weight and my use cases

01:07:37   over

01:07:39   sort of overwrited the extra camera and the

01:07:42   Promotion it's like those are nice

01:07:46   But Mike was aghast when I said this too because he's all in on a pro max and he loves promotion all that and the promotions

01:07:52   Good that I kept I felt like I had to keep saying to Mike no promotion is good

01:07:56   I just little phone is better for me

01:07:58   I prefer better phone and and really the test was because like you I got four iPhones

01:08:04   I got every model and I've been spending time with them

01:08:06   And promotion is good. But what I realized was when I went back to the mini I

01:08:13   Didn't miss it and I was relieved to be in the smaller phone

01:08:17   so I

01:08:18   Realized that the mini really is the right one for me and I'm gonna live it up this year because all rumors suggest that it's not

01:08:25   Coming back next year. So I'll I'm gonna I'm gonna enjoy it while I can I think it's entirely possible is an aging eyes

01:08:32   Same thing and that I would have been more enamored of the higher than 60

01:08:39   frame or Hertz refresh rates

01:08:42   even ten years ago

01:08:44   Than I am now I do see it and you even mentioned on the show

01:08:49   You really see it when you're scrolling because as you're scrolling

01:08:53   You're reading a long article on a web page and as you're scrolling

01:08:56   You can still read the text as it's moving if you read content while you scroll your iPhone

01:09:02   You need promotion right because it is vastly superior. I generally don't do that. Maybe that's that I've trained myself

01:09:09   Yeah to do that. Yeah on my iPhone, but I don't do that

01:09:12   And so I don't really miss it that much

01:09:14   But boy when you start to scroll and you realize that it just the text never breaks up

01:09:18   It just is crystal clear as you scroll it is

01:09:20   spectacularly good and you said that I was like that's a good test and I was actually out and I stopped on the sidewalk and

01:09:26   I was just open something and I was scrolling I was like, yeah

01:09:29   I I can kind of read that and I got home and and went I actually went to the iPad

01:09:34   Mini is just the nearest thing and I was like scrolling it and which does not have promotion

01:09:39   I was like no I cannot read that while I smell and I'm like I'm okay with that to me

01:09:43   The big win with promotion is the battery life change or advantages

01:09:48   That it extends battery life further like if you're streaming video

01:09:54   Because of the lower

01:09:57   Refresh rates not the visually impressive Wow

01:10:00   You can read while you scroll but the hey your battery light lasts even longer because if you're watching a 30 frames per second

01:10:08   Apple TV plus show your screen only reflect refreshes 30 frames per second

01:10:13   But all of the iPhones have an enormous battery life jump this year. It is it is

01:10:19   the most it's it's kind of amazing like that I linked to the

01:10:24   YouTube video where the the 13 mini that you bought has

01:10:29   longer battery life than last year's regular sized iPhone 12

01:10:33   That's bananas and and remember last year and the year before were pretty good in terms of battery life improvements

01:10:40   so if you look at the

01:10:42   Sort of like three or four year like if you're coming from a four or five year old phone the battery life will

01:10:47   Stun you plus your old battery was probably bad, right?

01:10:50   Cuz it's old so but even if it was fresh

01:10:52   The battery life improvements will stun you and that was part of it too is like the the mini last year didn't get great battery

01:10:58   Life, but it kind of didn't matter because I didn't go anywhere because it was a pandemic

01:11:02   But that makes that phone a lot better like having a longer battery life on the mini makes it a lot better and that's why I

01:11:07   think we talked about the promotion stuff and I'm sure promotion is a huge part of the

01:11:11   battery life savings being able to crank down the frame rate on those pro models, but like obviously the a15 and

01:11:18   The fact that they've kind of like put more battery into these like there

01:11:22   I think it's probably three four five different little reasons that added together netted them the huge battery life

01:11:28   But that's great because like I feel like camera and battery are the two features that yeah matter the most in a phone

01:11:33   I I care it's not that I don't care about promotion, but for me, it's so little of a deal

01:11:38   I I bought the 13 pro this year for the camera and only for the camera

01:11:44   Yeah, and there's no other reasons and if the regular

01:11:48   13

01:11:50   Was just had the 13 pro 3 lens camera system

01:11:55   Then I would have bought the regular 13 because I prefer the less the the lighter weight and I prefer the actual I actually prefer

01:12:02   The feel of the aluminum and I prefer the feel of the glossy

01:12:07   Therefore grippy glass back as opposed to the slippery frosted back the promo

01:12:13   I wonder what promotion doesn't do you want to buy it?

01:12:15   I wonder what they're gonna do next year because I feel like for this generation the 12 and the 13

01:12:19   And I know everybody's got a different opinion style wise

01:12:23   But I feel like that the the cheaper phones are better or like look better and feel better

01:12:27   I do think that they the bright colored backs and I the surgical stainless steel band and all that

01:12:32   It's like I kind of don't like it

01:12:34   I think it's kind of gaudy and and it picks up fingerprints and like I really like that aluminum band

01:12:39   I just I like the I like the cheaper phones and I agree with you

01:12:43   I thought I would miss the telephoto more than I have for the last year

01:12:47   Which is why I also was sort of accepting that but yes

01:12:50   I would love it if the cheaper phones had the three camera stack

01:12:54   But they don't and and like it wasn't enough for me to make the switch since I was also getting the size difference

01:12:59   To your point among. I don't know if they sent everybody the same four phones. I got the

01:13:04   The in my review units. I got the mini in

01:13:09   Midnight, which is yeah, it's sort of near black that the regular size 13 in blue

01:13:16   Mine was pink which is a joke because like because it looks white to me because I'm colorblind

01:13:20   Right and I had this moment where I had to show it to my wife and say this pink and she says oh, yeah

01:13:25   That's pink

01:13:26   To me. I got the the regular one in blue

01:13:29   I got the 13 Pro which I still have in my pocket in gold. Yes, same c3po style

01:13:37   and then the I think they gave everybody the Pro Max in Sierra blue in Sierra blue because Sierra blues their big new thing but

01:13:45   When I took them unboxed them

01:13:47   Both my wife and my son and my son, you know, my wife is just like I you know

01:13:53   Just has an eye for what's what's pretty, you know, and she's a very heavy iPhone and especially iPad user

01:14:00   She uses her iPad way more than I do

01:14:02   But but her her thoughts when she sees these new phones are what what looks great to her and

01:14:10   My you know, my son is

01:14:13   more technically minded, you know, he's

01:14:15   But they both thought that the blue iPhone 13 was the pro

01:14:21   Because it looks so cool and I was like, no, that's now that's not the pro. That's the regular one

01:14:27   They're like what that's that's the coolest looking phone of the bunch that that blue is awesome. So I I

01:14:35   I did get the midnight and other people are telling me that it like midnight is is

01:14:41   Has a slight blue undertone to it and it's slightly different than last year's. I don't know folks. I got I got a black

01:14:47   12 mini and a midnight 13 mini it look

01:14:51   Identical to me and blue is not one of those colors that I can't see and they look identical but the one I bought

01:14:57   Was the blue one? Yeah, I love it. Oh my god. It is the coolest color in my opinion

01:15:03   I'm always my rule is I always buy the black and the one year where I

01:15:09   where I kind of like my brain froze and I got like an edge condition and and and

01:15:14   The Gruber OS crashed was the iPhone 7 where there was black and jet black

01:15:20   Because of my rule of just buying the black one. It was like it was like a buffer overflow

01:15:27   And I think I made the wrong decision. I bought jet black and I in hindsight

01:15:31   I regret it and wish I'd bought the flat black. I was too I got I got too caught up in the the

01:15:37   shiny I

01:15:39   Think that the the flat black I regret it and mainly for touch reasons

01:15:43   I think the flat back but anyway that I just always buy the black one the one year

01:15:48   I came closest to not getting the gray was the year. I think it was the iPhone

01:15:54   11 yeah the 11 where they had sort of a Boba Fett style green blue type thing

01:16:02   Oh, yeah, I felt like midnight green or whatever it was. Yeah

01:16:07   The pros had those two kind of we're gonna put color in our pro products

01:16:11   Yeah, Apple doesn't apparently think pro products should be colored but then they did were very dark

01:16:15   Yeah

01:16:18   So I bought myself, of course the boring 13 Pro in graphite because it's boring

01:16:24   But if I were going to buy I last year

01:16:27   I bought the black iPhone 12 if I were gonna get the 12 again this year or the there are the 13 or the 13 mini

01:16:33   this might be the year where I would have broken the streak and bought blue instead of midnight because that blue is

01:16:39   One of the coolest things apples ever made and I know that I don't want to repeat it

01:16:44   But you and Mike got a whole thing that there should be a color czar at Apple

01:16:47   Whoever came up with that blue the glass looks cool. The anodized aluminum is this it's not like

01:16:55   Oh, it's gray with a tint of blue. It's you know, you look at if you tilt it, right and you're in the sunlight

01:17:02   Oh, it's nighttime and you're looking in in Kent. Oh, no, you won't see it. It looks over to you

01:17:07   You know and and I know that the the Justin long videos for was it

01:17:14   Dell or Microsoft who the hell paid Justin long to do sort of fake Mac PC ads

01:17:20   Microsoft I think it might have been Microsoft

01:17:23   Yeah, and it was or might know is Microsoft promoting the whole lineup the whole ecosystem or no, it was Intel. It was Intel Oh

01:17:30   Intel yeah Intel right, but he was like you you know

01:17:34   You can get all these different colors and with with the Mac you can get gray or slightly darker gray

01:17:40   And you know what? That's an honest zinger. That's yeah, those were sort of cringy commercials, but that's actually kind of true

01:17:47   So people can listen to that episode of upgrade where we talked about this

01:17:50   but I and I did go off on a rant about the colors are because I feel like

01:17:54   every now and then I feel like Apple's got its act together when it comes to color and

01:17:59   24-inch iMac was an example. I'm like, yes. Look you're embracing these colors again

01:18:03   I've wanted color in the Mac for so long now because they're fun and

01:18:07   Why not and you always let somebody have silver or gray as an option because not everybody wants color

01:18:13   but to like let people have color in their lives and and the last year's iPhones at least the the

01:18:18   12s not the 12 pros but the 12s were

01:18:21   Colorful this year's there are fewer color options and then you know

01:18:26   I know that people have been talking about the Sierra blue, but I feel like our standards for color on a pro

01:18:32   iPhone are so low that people are praising that Sierra blue

01:18:36   Sierra blue in almost all lighting conditions. I've taken it into it's just gray

01:18:41   It's it's gray with a very faint cast of blue

01:18:44   It's not like and then you look at the the 12 the 13 blue and you're like, oh that's blue

01:18:50   It's not this kind of like it's like how starlight it's like it's silver but very faintly yellow. It's like yeah, it's silver

01:18:56   Guys, it's it's silver if you go into an Apple store with their

01:19:01   Most of them or a lot of them are Sun, you know have sunlight if they're you know, connected to the outside

01:19:07   You know the ones aren't in a mall, but they all have beautiful light inside and it'll look blue in the Apple store

01:19:14   I guarantee you but but it if in real life in most cases it it looks silver

01:19:21   It's it's real gray silver

01:19:24   And then this is my larger point is again. I don't I think if you want a silver phone or a gray phone or whatever

01:19:30   Like you should be able to get by it. I I'm not saying everybody must wear bright colors

01:19:35   I'm just sort of saying that I'm a little baffled by apples kind of zigging and zagging about the idea that

01:19:40   Some products have bright colors and some products don't that the product names don't always match up

01:19:45   We may be seeing them like by introducing midnight in starlight

01:19:49   They may actually try to be trying to define colors that will be the same across product lines down the road

01:19:54   Unlike space gray, which has had like 15 different shades

01:19:57   So none of them dark enough though, except for like and then there's space black on the one watch that is like

01:20:04   What is that? What how why is that in space?

01:20:07   I don't know

01:20:08   but my point is I wish they would be more unified with their color choices and

01:20:12   Also a little bit bolder and braver because it really disappoints me that pro

01:20:17   Macs and pro iPhones and pro iPads they seem to think that what pro means is you can't have

01:20:25   Bold colors on them. All right, and that that is so fresh you didn't until last year

01:20:31   I believe you couldn't get a smart folio case

01:20:34   for the iPad Pro

01:20:37   That wasn't white or gray, right?

01:20:40   And they finally did that and I have an orange case and I had a blue case for a while

01:20:45   Like they finally caved on the accessories

01:20:48   But like I just I would like them to be a little more adventurous

01:20:51   With their and consistent with their colors and also I hope next year that the iPhone Pro models

01:20:57   Look really nice because they they honestly have paled in comparison to the the base models the last two years

01:21:04   I've I'm running the show notes and here from my iPad mini review unit, which they sent me in purple

01:21:12   I don't know what color you got

01:21:15   Right. I've I've been I've been using a purple

01:21:18   iPad mini

01:21:21   For two weeks now, I'm using it right now and I cannot tell you how many times over those two weeks

01:21:28   I've I if there's one regret I have from my iPad review is that I didn't do a whole section about how

01:21:34   Boring the purple is I keep forgetting its purple. I feel like it should be Minnesota Vikings purple, right?

01:21:41   I shouldn't feel again. It's more like a gray or silver with a very very faint purple cast it if it was like the blue

01:21:49   iPhone 13 if it was that vivid of a purple

01:21:54   It would be like something that you could hold up to the Minnesota Vikings helmet and it would be like yeah

01:21:58   That's like the same color and I think that would be really cool

01:22:01   I wouldn't probably wouldn't be what I would buy but I think a lot of people would like to do that and I think my

01:22:06   My argument would be if you're the kind of person who buys a purple computer

01:22:10   You actually want it to be purple. Otherwise, you wouldn't have button pretty you would have bought I silver

01:22:16   I can't tell you how many times over the last two weeks

01:22:18   I forgot that this is purple and it's in my hand all the time all the time and I'm like, oh, yeah

01:22:24   It's purple. It catches the light all of a sudden. I'm like, oh, yeah purple. I thought it remember earlier this year

01:22:29   They made a big deal. They did a whole ad campaign about how they added a purple iPhone 12. Yes

01:22:35   Yes, and that was really purple. Yes

01:22:38   And I'll just point out as another footnote here. Is there a purple iPhone 13? No, it's gone

01:22:43   Color they even had billboards dedicated to it

01:22:48   I don't know if it didn't sell or what the hell's going on

01:22:50   But that they got to get this cut they got it. They got to follow understand

01:22:54   They got to get the colors are in there colors are appoint someone. I don't care somebody really good

01:22:58   I'm not eligible because I'm colorblind but somebody who can see colors all the colors

01:23:03   I please get it to be consistent. We haven't nobody has seen them in person yet outside Apple

01:23:09   But I am excited to see the green

01:23:12   Apple watch series 7 because the green Apple watch series 7 looks like a seriously deep rich green green

01:23:20   That is to green what the blue is to the iPhone

01:23:26   13

01:23:28   But then why not? Why isn't there a green iPhone?

01:23:34   Like it looks like a really nice green

01:23:36   I I don't know if if this is like a coven thing like they've just you know, they're scrambling and they're not they're not

01:23:42   Communicating with each other and they're not collaborating

01:23:45   Maybe it may be that for all of our talk about color

01:23:48   The truth is they have gotten their act together with color, but we just haven't they haven't gotten it in sync yet

01:23:53   All right, I and that's what I hope I hope that you look at that 24 inch iMac and you're like, aha

01:23:58   They got it. But then I look at these these products this fall and I'm like, nope, they don't got it

01:24:03   So I don't know with as many listeners as we have

01:24:06   I'm sure that there's somebody some people out there who bought the iPhone 13 and purple last year and love it and they're like

01:24:13   Oh god, I did our iPhone 12 and they're like, I love my purple iPhone 12

01:24:17   I would like to buy a purple iPad and I'll feel the same way about it. So you are gonna be very disappointed. Yeah

01:24:24   Because it's going to look gray no in compare and I don't know why the color is restrained on an iPad mini that again

01:24:30   It's crying out for fun. It should have the iMac colors. It should have the right

01:24:36   It should be colored the color of the back of the iMacs. Why is it not colored like the iMacs like give me that

01:24:41   I want a

01:24:43   kooky

01:24:44   Orange iPad mini right and they're like no we're gonna give you starlight

01:24:50   Midnight and this very faint purpley gray and that's what you get. I don't get it

01:24:55   I mean it is arguably the most fun iPad. It's just a fun little size

01:25:01   It's like getting you know, it's like when you get the little Snickers they cut they literally call the little ones

01:25:06   They call it fun size, right? This is the fun size iPad. It's the size iPad

01:25:11   It's like you could just buy what if you don't even really need another iPad or another device in your life

01:25:16   But you're like, yeah, what the hell I'm gonna spend 500 bucks get an iPad mini, you know

01:25:19   It's it's it's a treat. It's a thing you play video games with it's it's a nice little portable

01:25:24   So it's a fun size. It should be fun colors

01:25:26   Yeah, yeah

01:25:28   I don't I don't understand it. I

01:25:32   Just don't understand for a company like Apple that seems to have at various points in its life and in its marketing embrace fun

01:25:40   The restraint that sometimes comes out in there in their color choices for their products

01:25:46   I just don't get it like I get that you want restrained choices because some people don't want big and bold

01:25:52   But why you don't give people the option of big bold style?

01:25:57   Just it baffles me. So I hope they I hope the iMac

01:26:02   I'm gonna keep pointing at that iMac when they're MacBook Airs the next time I want them in all those colors

01:26:07   Please don't water it down

01:26:09   But my fear is that what we're gonna get is starlight right where it's like it's really just silver or midnight

01:26:15   It's really just dark gray and that's not I just like those are fine

01:26:20   But if you're gonna make a purple product, it should pop it should not just lay there like a purpley gray

01:26:26   But then something like the blue iPhone 13 squeaks through and you're like I know that that looks like the most amazing

01:26:33   Red's not my color, but the product red is gorgeous, too

01:26:37   But like those are the two eye popping colors in the iPhone 13 and the rest of them are are boring

01:26:44   Speaking of the eye pink, which I can't see. Yeah, which you can't see iPad mini

01:26:48   Another one from you and Mike you were talking about the the very odd

01:26:53   home screen icon layout on the iPad mini where the

01:26:59   icons are like

01:27:01   one two three four five six six six down when you're in portrait and four across and

01:27:08   There's a huge amount of space around the bezels and yeah

01:27:14   It in landscape. It's like

01:27:17   You could fit a whole

01:27:20   widget

01:27:21   On either side of the space where the icons go, right?

01:27:24   like there's easily plenty of margin space for the you know, like the way that in

01:27:30   Last year's version of iPad OS you had a whole strip to put widgets you could you there's that much room is still there

01:27:38   It's just white space now

01:27:40   It's it's very odd. I I did mention this in my review where it just feels like

01:27:46   the

01:27:48   iPad OS doesn't really treat this as an

01:27:53   It doesn't target. There's a lot of areas of the OS that just don't seem

01:27:58   it the scaling done to make it fit on the iPad mini just seems like an afterthought like well,

01:28:04   It's I don't know what the percentage is. Let's say it's

01:28:08   68% the size just shrink it by 68% put it there and then it just ends up like, huh?

01:28:14   I did the same thing you did where I transferred over

01:28:17   From for me. It was an 11 inch iPad Pro backup

01:28:22   and I had my dock from the 11 inch iPad on the mini and the icons were like the size of a

01:28:28   pencil eraser

01:28:30   Oh, yeah

01:28:31   You can put a lot of a lot of icons in that dock and then you rotate it vertically and they're all the size of your

01:28:36   Your like fingernail. Yeah, it's you have to use your pinky. You can't use your index finger

01:28:42   You got it. Do you switch to your pinky to poke at them?

01:28:44   Just I'm glad it I'm glad I didn't stop them from making this product

01:28:48   But it does show you all the places where iPad OS is sort of like not been given attention

01:28:52   and the larger issue

01:28:55   about iPad OS 15 is

01:28:57   that

01:28:59   Like we were expecting when widgets didn't come like freeform widgets like on the iPhone to the iPad last year

01:29:05   That that was because Apple had something, you know bigger in mind and because since day one

01:29:10   We've all looked at that iPad home screen and said it's it's like this loose grid

01:29:14   It's really like, you know

01:29:16   the iPhone grid with not a lot of effort to make it just also appear on the iPad and

01:29:22   and surely at some point Apple will rethink the home screen of the iPad and they never have and

01:29:27   Sure enough iOS 15 comes out and it's literally not rethought at all other than they loosened the grid even more

01:29:35   So that one app icon which is much smaller than a small widget still takes the exact same amount of space as a small widget

01:29:43   because there's so much padding around the app icon and

01:29:46   They all flow around each other

01:29:49   so if you try to place a widget you have to chase the app icons around the screen in order to get them to flow because

01:29:54   Now you've got these big wide widgets that are pushing all the icons around and you can this is something that I mentioned on upgrade

01:30:00   That turns out nobody knew

01:30:02   apparently, I'm the only one who noticed it but

01:30:04   You can order your widgets in a different location horizontally and vertically all your app icons still flow around them

01:30:11   But you can actually put them in different places, which is nice

01:30:13   But like I just the disappointment of the fact that they seem to have still not

01:30:17   figured out like a new take on the home screen for the iPad and

01:30:21   Then when you see the iPad mini you're like, oh wow

01:30:24   It's all it's starting to break down right like they it really

01:30:28   they need to think of a new approach that really properly uses all their different screen sizes and and

01:30:34   This isn't it. I mean it's usable and I love it. I love the mini

01:30:37   It's a lot of fun as a product but there are those moments where you realize oh, they didn't paint like behind this

01:30:44   Piece of furniture, right?

01:30:46   There's like the unpainted part of the wall that now has been revealed because this product is

01:30:51   Shaped a little bit differently and suddenly you realize oh that that's an oversight and instead that the response was like

01:30:57   Let's just put really big padding on the sides of the home screen and to just to compare and contrast. Let's say

01:31:05   It I know they don't make the 12-inch MacBook anymore

01:31:09   But the 12-inch MacBook is the smallest Mac screen in recent years

01:31:13   When you're using that size MacBook

01:31:18   It doesn't feel like well this OS was really meant for a 30-inch

01:31:25   Apple Pro display XDR or a 27-inch iMac

01:31:29   and

01:31:31   You know, they've really sort of crammed it onto this thing or vice versa when you're using a 27-inch iMac

01:31:38   You don't feel like you're using an operating system and a home

01:31:41   You know a desktop and windows that was that were designed for a 12-inch

01:31:47   Laptop it it scales and it feels like each one was designed for it the the iPad mini

01:31:54   I do like this device. I think people who like it will will like it

01:31:58   But it's very clear that iPad OS 15 was not designed for this device

01:32:04   And it should it should feel that way. It should feel just iPad iPad OS 15 should feel just as ah

01:32:10   Everything is just the way it should be in just the right amount of things

01:32:15   You know right amount of icons in a row and the right size for widgets on a 13-inch

01:32:21   12.9 inch but I like to call it 13-inch iPad Pro as on the mini and that's just not true

01:32:27   This feels like an OS and a home screen that was designed for 11-inch

01:32:31   iPads and bigger

01:32:34   Yeah, I have a theory since we're talking about our our wild theories. I have a theory that Apple is

01:32:40   Moving toward a more complex windowing system for the iPad and

01:32:46   They've been putting pieces in place a lot of more a lot more pieces in place in iOS 15 with the new kind of windowing

01:32:52   Controls and they've got a floating window thing now, and they've got quick note, which

01:32:57   They get very excited to talk about quick note on the iPad and then you use it on the Mac and you realize oh

01:33:04   It's literally a floating window like on the Mac

01:33:07   It's pointless because it's just a window like you can have on the Mac

01:33:11   But on the iPad a window from one app floating on top of other apps is mind-blowing right and you can move it to it

01:33:18   Ever corner you want. Oh, it just and you move it off the edge and then bring it back

01:33:22   It's just it is it is great on the iPad

01:33:25   But it also exposes just how limited the iPads interface is so I have this feeling like with all the stuff

01:33:31   They're doing their shelf the multi window all this stuff that they're trying to get somewhere

01:33:36   It feels like they're headed somewhere that is probably a more complex

01:33:40   at least optional windowing system of some kind and

01:33:44   my theory is that that is connected to the fact that Apple at some point here is going to probably do an

01:33:51   external display that is not the pro display XDR and

01:33:55   They've got Thunderbolt on the M1 iPad pros and that at some point what they're going to do is announce a display

01:34:02   And you'll be able to connect an iPad to it and it will be able to be

01:34:07   Sort of more of a windowed kind of experience because on a big screen you can't just have a full screen app from an iPad

01:34:14   It doesn't make any sense. And right now all you can do is sort of mirror an iPad display on an external monitor

01:34:19   so that's my theory and

01:34:22   One thing about like looking at the mini that I might be able to throw in there is maybe one of the reasons that some

01:34:28   of these iPad things seem kind of stuck in the mud is

01:34:31   Because they want to get to a place where the iPad interface scales better like the Mac

01:34:37   And they have a plan to get there, but it's all kind of contingent on

01:34:42   Going to their new world and they're not there yet

01:34:47   That's and I realized that there's certainly some wish casting in that theory on my part because I would love to see it

01:34:54   But I don't know otherwise why Apple would keep trying to do

01:34:59   floating windows and

01:35:02   Shelves with windows in them and remaking the menu bar when you hold down command keys

01:35:08   You get a full menu bar now that is essentially a Mac menu bar

01:35:11   floating in front of you like all the pieces are starting to form so I feel like that that's where they're going and

01:35:17   Knowing Apple that's the kind of thing that they save for like a hardware

01:35:22   Yeah announcement and if they ever did an external monitor that was more reasonably priced than the pro display XDR

01:35:28   That would be where I would say they'll drop it because they'll be like boom look what you can do now with an iPad and

01:35:33   Everybody will be amazed sort of like what they did with the the magic keyboard last year. Yeah my frustration

01:35:39   I love that they added I forget what they call it

01:35:42   They don't call it a menu bar because there is no bar, but you know, there is no a menu floating menu and system word thing

01:35:49   But there is literally file edit

01:35:51   The thing that kills me about it is if you don't have a keyboard connected you can't get it

01:35:57   Yeah, I know like it's crazy. It's like a magic. Imagine if you got the Mac menu bar

01:36:03   When you have a mouse connected, but if you if you're using a trackpad instead of a mouse it goes away

01:36:10   It's like well that doesn't make any sense

01:36:12   It's like I think that's not the best analogy because a trackpad and a mouse are sort of two ways to do the same thing

01:36:18   Which is move a cursor around the screen

01:36:20   And I should have but so Stephen Trenton Smith had in one of his apps. He's got like a button

01:36:25   That's like a like a command key symbol button

01:36:28   Yeah, and you tap on it and you get the menu

01:36:30   But it's like that could be Apple could make that a convention where there's something you tap that brings up

01:36:35   The list because it's very helpful to have a list of every command like

01:36:39   That it can do right it and they are spaced out in a way that makes them easy to tap

01:36:47   So if there was some way of doing you know

01:36:50   Like they've put this quick notes in the lower right corner if maybe something in the lower left corner

01:36:55   And then you could bring that up and then you could tap the menu

01:36:58   It just seems crazy that they've added a really nice menuing system very thoughtful

01:37:04   Very very thoughtful and you can only get it when you have a keyboard attached to a quote-unquote touch first device

01:37:11   I'm gonna go with we haven't seen the end of the story yet

01:37:15   And we're we're trying to make sense of a whole story that we're only halfway through

01:37:20   I sure hope so

01:37:21   I mean it feels like a big chunk of my job and your job is looking at what Apple does and then having these sort of two

01:37:28   potential paths and the one is that I hope that they're planning something and then and then and they often are and

01:37:34   Sometimes they aren't and you're like, oh, I guess I was just trying to do some pattern matching there

01:37:40   And I got all swept up in this grand plan that they don't actually have but I think that there's something going on with the iPad

01:37:47   and

01:37:48   whether that's an excuse for why things like the home screen being broken are

01:37:52   or if not broken uninspiring are

01:37:55   That may or may not be true. But I do think that they're doing something and like

01:38:00   Inefficiently you it certainly is inefficiently using the space right and which is crazy on on the iPad

01:38:08   That has the least space

01:38:10   I know I know it's kind of crazy that the iPad that has the least space because it is the mini

01:38:16   Uses the space that is available the least efficiently

01:38:20   Yeah, there is a with the iPad

01:38:24   I feel like it's always like the moment that Apple opens the door that makes you realize that they are gonna go

01:38:29   Do you go through the door?

01:38:31   Doorway at some point so like I used to get people arguing about about file system access saying no out

01:38:38   They're never gonna do a finder

01:38:39   It's an iPad and I would point them at that iCloud Drive app that they released and I said well at this point

01:38:44   they've opened the door and now that became files and

01:38:47   There is an iPad take on a file system

01:38:50   But it is there and that's how I feel about windowing is

01:38:54   Now that they've got the little floating mail window

01:38:57   There is a message that floats above your mail app and you can take it and put it somewhere else and now that they've got

01:39:02   Quick note, they're basically admitting that having floating windows that you can move around on the screen is a thing that you can do on

01:39:10   the iPad it's

01:39:11   Possible for me to imagine that that isn't going somewhere because why would you break that metaphor but only one time?

01:39:18   It doesn't it doesn't really follow so they will do something with it sometime probably but what it is, I don't know

01:39:25   But but you're right about you're really right about those menus

01:39:28   They're really great, but because they came out of the keyboard shortcut overlay. They have not been

01:39:34   Just integrated into the rest of the interface standards and it's it's a it's a mistake

01:39:40   If anything they're actually in a way better than

01:39:44   Or not better than the Mac because the Mac's menus have to be that way because it's a mouse pointer driven system

01:39:50   But in the Mac

01:39:52   metaphor or any mouse and mouse pointer system

01:39:56   You have to go up there and click to drag it down and you can only see one at a time

01:40:01   And you have to you know, it's it's a lot of work

01:40:03   Whereas with the iPad system you see them all at once and you can just sort of horizontally scroll

01:40:09   Over them and you can see multiple

01:40:12   If you forget whether like a certain command is in the view menu or the window menu

01:40:19   Where do you go to turn that thing off? You can see them both at once and then and just tap at it

01:40:24   You don't have to drag them anything down to get to it. You just stab your finger at it

01:40:28   It actually could be more convenient to use than the Mac menuing system. It's it's the potential is huge

01:40:36   It's a really nice design that you don't get if you don't have a keyboard. Anyway, I'm gonna take a break here

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01:42:13   Alright last but not least it's sad. It's this one. This is the sad thing Oh Safari tabs

01:42:20   I'm I I'm I

01:42:27   Was I was actually a little shocked when Safari 15 shipped

01:42:31   For not not for Monterey and I forgot that they do that, you know that they've done that in past years

01:42:40   But there hasn't been anything

01:42:42   controversial or shocking in the Mac version of Safari and so if the new version of Safari ships in September and

01:42:48   the actual

01:42:51   Annual Mac OS update isn't coming until late October or even early November. So what it's Safari and you know

01:42:59   New Safari with new vert new improvements to WebKit or it's all good

01:43:03   but if you have automatic updates on or you even if you don't have automatic if you just saw Oh Safari 15 is out update and

01:43:11   Now you have Safari 15

01:43:13   Now now you got you got different tabs I

01:43:19   I don't know what happened this summer like they obviously somebody was

01:43:24   influential and got them to commit to this entire Safari redesign at

01:43:29   WWDC and then they heard the feedback which apparently got enough internal momentum at Apple to make changes

01:43:38   Especially on the iPhone, but there came a moment this summer. I don't know if you noticed this

01:43:43   I don't know if you were downloading all the betas

01:43:44   I've had a dedicated Mac for for the betas and I have but I have but I was less on the Mac than the it

01:43:51   Then the iPad and iPhone so what happened is there was this moment where everything changed a little bit and they said no no

01:43:58   No, no, no, it's not all it's it's it's gonna change more and then they did another release on the iPhone

01:44:04   they really started to shape up the iPhone and

01:44:06   I felt at that moment. It's like okay the iPhone needed the most work. They're doing work on the iPhone. That's good

01:44:12   they got to come back to the iPad and the Mac and

01:44:15   They never came back to the iPad and the Mac and it feels to me

01:44:19   Like and this may not be true. I'm not trying to be unfair to them, but I'm just saying as an outside observer

01:44:26   It feels to me like they shipped something that was unfinished and it's even worse than that

01:44:33   It's like they had a vision for a new thing. We're told that the new thing wasn't good

01:44:38   And so they needed to start tearing it down

01:44:40   Tear it or tore it part of the way down and then walked away and

01:44:45   It's a it's I don't see the point of what they did. I don't see how changing the tabs

01:44:53   to be less able

01:44:56   To be scanned they're harder to read the text in them is harder to read

01:45:02   It's harder to see which one of them is active the colored background which you can turn off

01:45:06   But that makes it even harder because the contrast of the text and the color is changing from tab to tab

01:45:12   Which makes it even harder to look at a screen and say which is my active tab right now

01:45:17   and they removed the metaphor of

01:45:22   The tab of tabs, right? So you used to be on the the like the highlighting it

01:45:27   You could literally see this tab goes down to the content. Well, they they moved they remove that now

01:45:32   they're all little lozenges and they put the the

01:45:36   toolbar favorites, which I still use I do to

01:45:39   below the lozenges which even further breaks the metaphor because they don't

01:45:44   Content that doesn't change from tab to tab should never be below the tabs

01:45:50   It seems obvious and I'm not telling tales out of school

01:45:54   But I did have a moment where I gave some feedback to somebody at Apple about Safari 15 and one of the things I said was

01:46:02   This which is it doesn't make any sense for toolbar favorites to be below the tabs because the whole tab metaphor

01:46:09   It's the stuff that's below the tabs is the stuff that changes and the stuff that's above doesn't change and they said yes

01:46:13   Yes. Yes, of course. Absolutely. It never changed. They never fixed it. It's not like that on the Mac

01:46:18   It's not like that on the iPad. They just sort of have kept this

01:46:21   kind of halfway

01:46:24   And you know what? The color thing is it's cute

01:46:27   I updated six colors so it it matches the color in the menu bar when you go there. It's cute

01:46:33   You could turn it off. That's fine. But like

01:46:36   Decreasing the legibility of tabs if you like they put so much effort into tab groups

01:46:42   Which is this really nice feature that acknowledges how important tabs are to people and yet at the same time

01:46:50   They completely destroyed tab legibility. I

01:46:55   Don't understand how an organization that understands how people use tabs

01:46:59   Would at the same moment that they launched their feature that makes tabs better make tabs unreadable

01:47:05   But that's what I mean at least at least it doesn't ship with the compact view which made them even more unreadable

01:47:12   But they're still not very readable even in the non compact view

01:47:17   There is so iPhone has already always called multiple

01:47:25   Browser instances within Safari tabs, even though they almost never actually look like

01:47:32   Actual tab tabs, although horizontal when you hold your phone

01:47:36   horizontally you can you you can get it to look like tabs and I think that that's still an option in iOS 15 but

01:47:43   Almost who uses their phone horizontally to read Safari other than to watch videos

01:47:47   and

01:47:49   I'm okay with that because people get it tabs is what people kind of get that tabs in browser

01:47:57   means two different things it means

01:48:01   multiple web pages open at once and

01:48:04   it also means a

01:48:07   visual UI

01:48:10   element that is a metaphorical tab from like

01:48:15   File folder tabs like that look like actual tabs

01:48:19   It means both and they're sort of a one-to-one relationship in the way that and everybody

01:48:24   I think just even even if you are a normal person who doesn't think deeply about user interfaces of the things you're using

01:48:31   You get it that the iPhone is too small to have tab tabs

01:48:36   but in a windowing system

01:48:40   Like the Mac or Windows or you know any other system where you have what we consider a traditional

01:48:47   GUI of windows that you can drag around the actual tab metaphor is important

01:48:52   It is really important and it the thing with the the fifth favorites bar going under the tabs

01:48:59   It could go under in the I actually dug up the old article. I wrote remember when Safari

01:49:06   Had a beta with tabs on top. Yeah you that could work and I was like

01:49:11   I think that's what I wrote and I went back and read my article had a really good article

01:49:15   I have to say I almost never praised myself

01:49:17   But I was like younger John Gruber who wrote this article really did a good job and made in a you know, broke broke

01:49:23   Not not tradition. I don't have a rule against including images, but I'd you know people who listen to the show

01:49:28   No, I don't put a lot of images in my articles usually but I for my by my standards copiously illustrated that with

01:49:35   with the actual Safari tabs that that that the Safari beta was proposing and

01:49:40   some

01:49:42   Hmm. Here are some mock-ups from other people around the web

01:49:46   Suggesting better ways to do it and the problem with the Safari tabs from I forget what year it was

01:49:53   But it was you know

01:49:54   2009 2009 was that they went all the way to the top of the window and left no room

01:50:01   For a place to grab to drag the window around which is a thing

01:50:06   You might want to do and the idea is that were that I mocked, you know

01:50:10   people mocked up were just move them down a little bit and leave a little bit of a strip up there of

01:50:15   Just window area so you can grab the window move the window and then the tabs are underneath but

01:50:20   tabs on top at least still establishes a

01:50:25   Hierarchy where the hierarchy is there's a selected tab and then underneath the tab is all of the browser chrome like the address bar

01:50:33   and the back button and the reload button and

01:50:36   Extensions and then your favorites bar and then a line and then the web content

01:50:43   Right that works too. What doesn't work? So it's not that

01:50:47   You can't put anything under the tabs. But the problem is the tabs have to be at the top or they have to be at the

01:50:54   bottom

01:50:55   Right. They need to be the metaphor is that the tab is in closing?

01:50:59   Yes, something and it can be in closing the entire browser window or they can be in closing the content space

01:51:06   but it it's

01:51:09   it is

01:51:11   Maddening and and like if you open two tabs in Safari 15 on the Mac just two tabs in a window

01:51:17   And it it's I think it's worse in dark mode, but it is bad in both dark mode and light mode

01:51:24   To and especially if you and depends on if you've got the color option turned on it literally depends on which site is currently the

01:51:32   active tab because the coloring completely changes

01:51:34   But if you let's say and and I to me this is a common scenario to open two tabs for the same website

01:51:41   Right, like maybe you're at the New York Times and you're reading two different articles today at the New York Times

01:51:47   Or you're at a shopping site and you're comparing two products from the same company

01:51:51   and so like the the fav icons are the same and and it I

01:51:56   Dare you to tell at a glance which tab is active in Safari 15

01:52:01   Because is it the one that has more contrast and it's lighter or is it the one that has less contrast and it's darker

01:52:10   You have to think about it. Yeah, and and I know there are people I hear about them

01:52:15   I hear from them on Twitter as I gripe about Safari and they're calling me old and they're like, you know

01:52:19   Get with the times that things change and it's it's people

01:52:23   You might like it. There are people clearly some people at Apple clearly like it, right?

01:52:29   I mean, there's somebody at Apple likes it because they shipped it

01:52:32   It is to me

01:52:35   catastrophic to replace a

01:52:37   Visual metaphor that nobody ever had to think about nobody ever had to think which tab is active whether you have one tab or two

01:52:44   tabs three tabs

01:52:47   20 tabs in a window you at a glance

01:52:50   Anybody could tell which one is the active tab because there's no difference in contrast because it's connected to the chrome now

01:52:58   It's it's this total guessing game where you you have to think about a thing that you never had to think about and Don Norman

01:53:05   You user interface human interface

01:53:08   Guru even wrote a book called don't make me think like that's actually a great adage

01:53:16   You know and like Don Norman has talked a lot about like doors and like any door you ever got approached

01:53:21   Where you've like pushed instead of pulled or pulled instead of pushed and it was the wrong way is a failure of door design

01:53:28   It's an absent failure

01:53:29   That was that's actually Steve Krug wrote that book because I said that was that was that when I taught web design at UC Berkeley

01:53:35   Thank you for thank you for saving me again Jason early 2000s

01:53:39   we assigned to that book because it is so good and yes the problem with the

01:53:44   Two options both of which is slightly different

01:53:47   But neither of which indicates which one is selected is a classic user interface problem

01:53:51   Right and how to how does Safari 14 and all previous versions of Safari?

01:53:55   Deal with that and the answer is only one tab has no barrier between it and the rest of the browser club chrome

01:54:02   It's the one that's selected. It has no ceiling

01:54:05   It's not walled off and so you know

01:54:07   It must be active and they and they took it away and again if I ask why they took it away John

01:54:12   I think the answer is it they didn't it was part of a larger strategy

01:54:17   they had this strategy that they wanted to reduce the size of the browser chrome so that that

01:54:21   Content could be free and fill the space which while an admirable goal

01:54:28   makes less sense if you've got a Mac with a

01:54:32   27 inch screen or even a Mac or an iPad with a 13 inch screen that it does if you're on an iPhone and

01:54:39   When they realized there was pushback for their super compact interface they unraveled that

01:54:45   but left all the pieces and so we're left with a design that sort of

01:54:50   Comes out of the idea of having an incredibly compact bar

01:54:55   The compact bar is off by default

01:54:57   But we're left with all of the pieces of the compact bar that have all of the problems that kill legibility in tabs

01:55:05   So I just I don't I can't believe they shipped it. I gotta say it

01:55:09   I can't believe they shipped it. I can't believe they didn't do look they didn't ship shareplay

01:55:12   You know they didn't ship universal control

01:55:15   They're all these things that they didn't ship because they are not ready yet and yet somehow

01:55:19   Broken user interface is not broken enough not to ship it

01:55:24   I don't understand why they shipped it because could it be better

01:55:27   They could tweak it and make it better and make it usable

01:55:30   But what it is now is not that and yet they shipped it. I don't get it

01:55:35   I don't I don't understand why they didn't say let's hold off on this a little bit

01:55:38   I have talked to friends at Apple people who work at Apple in software. It had nothing to do with this

01:55:43   They're just using the betas and and friends multiple friends who have said more or less the same thing, which is I?

01:55:49   Work at Apple. I'm confused which tab is active in my browser

01:55:54   I cannot believe you know and they cannot believe that this is the state of

01:55:57   Safaris user interface design and the part that makes it so heartbreaking is that Safari invented tabs on Mac when?

01:56:06   Safari first added tabs tabs were not a thing on the Mac and

01:56:09   The Safari implementation of tabs was so good that when the finder added tabs

01:56:15   When they added tabs to the end apps the NS document and all the NS document based

01:56:22   You know like so you want to you could you know make a keynote tab text edit

01:56:26   You yeah make those tab terminal all the people love people who use terminal love tabs and terminal. They're all Safari tabs

01:56:32   They're all Safari tabs. It was it became the Safari implementation of tabs became the Mac

01:56:38   Implementation of tabs and they just flushed it down the toilet for something. I don't understand is why why like again who?

01:56:45   decided

01:56:47   that

01:56:48   They needed they so desperately needed to eke out a line of vertical space in a browser window on all the platforms

01:56:56   That they needed to completely rethink it like that. That's that part. It gets me is

01:57:02   What I want to say is look they didn't do it. They took their best shot

01:57:05   It's kind of broken, but at least they tried to solve this nagging problem, but there's no nagging problem. There's no

01:57:12   nagging problem to be solved it it comes across more like either

01:57:17   They were just kind of bored and wanted to do something different or there was a problem on the iPhone that they wanted to solve and

01:57:23   Because Apple strategically now wants to roll everything out across all their platforms

01:57:28   rather than really rethink what they were doing they kind of took too many principles from the iPhone and

01:57:34   rolled this project out across

01:57:36   Because like again, I would be much more sympathetic if they were solving a problem that actually existed, but it was fine

01:57:43   I think it looks like I think it looks like a design

01:57:47   from a

01:57:49   high budget movie or like sci-fi TV show where they want to make a

01:57:55   Computer interface without showing a real, you know for product placement purposes

01:58:02   Don't want to show Microsoft Windows don't want to show max and they make a fake computer interface, right?

01:58:07   Like, you know and or like the Marvel like a bad like that Batman movie where Batman has the keyboard with a spacebar on the top

01:58:14   Yeah, it's that kind of thing where it's like it's fake but it's okay because there's also a man in a bat costume

01:58:19   It's fine and it's it's an art form right like to make like the Tony Stark interfaces for his devices that are not based on anything

01:58:26   It looks like that type of interface. It looks cool and it does not work

01:58:31   Well, and I know we know it would be unusable, but it doesn't matter because it looks cool

01:58:35   It looks cool and that's all there is and I know

01:58:38   That I throw it out a lot and other people use a lot and it's but it's not overused

01:58:44   We we quote Steve Jobs on this because it is such a key keen

01:58:49   Observation and it's so important that people think design is just how it looks

01:58:55   But it's not design is how it works and it doesn't and it gets misunderstood

01:59:01   Right because look is can be a part of the working and it can be aesthetically pleasing

01:59:06   But if it looks good and doesn't work, it's not good design it it's almost like that part

01:59:11   It was that's from an interview with the New York Times. I forget what year probably like

01:59:15   2004 or so but the part that Steve Jobs didn't even see fit to say is that of course our stuff looks beautiful

01:59:24   You know because that's the thing that they're known for it went unsaid that their stuff looks really cool the hardware and the software

01:59:32   but

01:59:34   What he was trying to say is that's not the game we play though just to make it look beautiful

01:59:38   It's how it works. It just went unsaid that it looks beautiful. Nobody looked at Safari 14 or Safari

01:59:45   123 block dot dot dot through 14 and said well, that's an ugly looking web browser boy

01:59:52   Those tabs are friggin ugly can't stand them. They're so gross

01:59:56   It's and and the people who seem to love this all they and their only defense of it is

02:00:02   Is that they think it looks cool and that's you know it and there are people you know

02:00:08   and I used to we all did you know like when I was younger and loved playing with the

02:00:13   kaleidoscope kaleidoscope and

02:00:16   Aaron back in the classic days right there and and tweaked all customized all my icons

02:00:21   And I'd have all sorts of custom themes on my Mac, but I knew that I was horsing around too. You know it's

02:00:27   And even when I was custom theming my my Mac OS 7 or Mac OS 8 machines

02:00:34   It wasn't breaking the usability of it. I wasn't I wasn't installing themes that made it so I couldn't tell which window was active

02:00:41   Yeah, so and I will say this though. I feel like we dodged a bullet in the sense that they shipped with the compact mode off

02:00:49   It's still there, and you can turn it on, but it ships off why it shipped at all I again

02:00:55   I don't understand and somebody thinks that it's great, and they wanted to ship it like I the

02:01:00   Everything gets compacted more

02:01:02   Lots of buttons in the browser toolbar vanish and this happens on the iPad as well as on the Mac

02:01:07   The tabs that are not the currently active tab you do see this is an effect of them ripping this stuff out is

02:01:13   The tab that's currently active is much wider because it's the URL bar

02:01:18   And that is a clue about what your current selected tab is the problem is one

02:01:24   All the other tabs are so small that even if you only have three tabs open you basically can't read

02:01:29   the contents of any tab which is bad for tab navigation because you really want to see what's in all of your tabs and

02:01:35   To the currently active page you can't see what it's called

02:01:39   Because it's a URL bar up there instead of the name of the tab that you're on which I think is also a mistake

02:01:44   So like that that really made me scratch my head of like do they understand how people use web browsers because?

02:01:52   You know and do they know that they're building a feature called tab groups

02:01:56   That's all about celebrating the use of tabs and yet they've built a user interface that makes tabs illegible

02:02:02   But at least that is turned off although still it's still there. They just turned it off

02:02:07   I don't get it

02:02:08   Pushes them off to the side where you can't even see them with no affordance to indicate how many of them are

02:02:14   Scrolled off to the side and oh don't forget that on the iPad especially

02:02:18   If they get really small

02:02:21   The you basically to tap them is to close them beyond a certain point and you can't really

02:02:28   Activate them because they're the tap target because the I think this is another user talking about minor

02:02:34   but another user interface problem is that the

02:02:37   Fat the fade icon becomes the closed box, right?

02:02:41   Which I think is a huge mistake right because I just don't think like your congratulations your logo is now a closed box

02:02:49   I don't I don't like it and on the Safari previous Safari the the X

02:02:54   Goes off on the on the left side and that's where you close it you'd but now it's just like hovering

02:03:00   Under the fat icon it's for you to for you to get it's kind

02:03:04   it's kind of bananas because you'd think the fab icon might serve as a proxy for the URL and in fact like the

02:03:11   document icon when you have a document in the finder or

02:03:16   When you open it and it's in the window and you see the the proxy icon

02:03:21   Although it last year they took it, you know, they hit it by the vault so that it only shows up on hover

02:03:27   Clearly this is the work of the same team and let's face it, you know

02:03:31   I'm not trying to throw Alan Dye personally under the bus, but he is in charge of human interface

02:03:36   He's ultimately responsible and he does come from a graphic design background not a interface design background

02:03:43   I have no idea if he personally, you know has had any opinion about any of this but he is ultimately responsible

02:03:48   But I when you do get the proxy icon and you have to hover to get it now

02:03:53   you can click on it to drag it to like drag it into a messages window to

02:03:58   Send somebody a copy of it or drag it into a mail message to do it

02:04:02   And so you might think oh I could drag the fav icon to drag this URL and guess what it closes the window or closes

02:04:09   the tab

02:04:11   That is a very bizarre conflation of

02:04:14   the

02:04:16   Most destructive action with the I want to keep this thing and do something with it intent

02:04:22   I think I think there's a lot of pride showing here where

02:04:25   Rather than just pull this out and say we'll come back with a new version later

02:04:29   They tried to fix it in progress and then they just shipped whatever they had at the moment when they needed to ship it when the

02:04:34   Wise thing to do would probably have been to say we'll be back

02:04:36   You know, we're not gonna ship this right away like Universal Control

02:04:39   We'd say like you said they've done with so many other things and they've been doing to their credit. I think one of the best

02:04:47   changes at Apple in the last maybe four years or so for ish is

02:04:54   to switch from trying to get as many features into the dot Oh fall upgrade of the OS and

02:05:02   Instead treat WWDC as a roadmap for the year to come. Yeah, and

02:05:08   And do more

02:05:10   Fourteen point two fourteen point three fourteen

02:05:13   We're up to like fourteen point six in iOS or something like that and to do and and roll out major features like the iPad

02:05:21   Trackpad and mouse pointer support in March rather than you know, have everything all come out at once

02:05:28   Yeah roll roll these features out when they're ready

02:05:31   This tab design is not ready. It's and no and to me the cat kick

02:05:38   It's risky for Apple. It's not just

02:05:40   Hey

02:05:43   People like me and you are annoyed and they're hearing it from the user interface critic of people

02:05:50   Safari is in a very

02:05:55   competitive and precarious state on the Mac because on the Mac you can

02:05:59   Just you're two clicks away from installing Chrome or brave or Firefox or something like that

02:06:05   And I'm not trying to be

02:06:07   Snarky here I can actually foresee Google like you go to Google and you know

02:06:14   They tell you sometimes if you're using Safari you can download Chrome

02:06:18   I could see them doing it and say download Chrome the Mac browser with tabs that look like tabs and

02:06:24   Show a little screenshot of

02:06:27   Chrome's tabs that look like tabs

02:06:29   You know talk about a glass of ice water and hell right?

02:06:33   It's like so people who like get this surprise update what the hell happened to my Safari

02:06:39   You get the color backgrounds by default and you have to go into preferences to turn it off and everybody knows that the more

02:06:47   non nerdy and just

02:06:50   Typical Joe and Jane user you might be the less likely you ever are to go into preferences

02:06:56   So people are gonna know lots of people who don't like the color background the color tint whatever you call it

02:07:03   And would like it if it were turned off

02:07:06   But don't know they can turn it off and won't go hunting to turn it off

02:07:10   We'll be using it in that mode and you can you know, Google can just show them

02:07:15   Hey, take a look at Chrome looks like a nor, you know, looks like normal Mac window with normal Mac tabs

02:07:21   Although they have the closed buttons on the wrong side

02:07:23   Yeah, just like Safari on the iPhone. Oh, by the way, that's the worst thing about Safari. I don't get it

02:07:30   Why did they do it? Why do they have the closed buttons in the top right like windows? It's it's

02:07:35   it's a sign of

02:07:38   Something's going on there something something bad is happening that that's the part that concerns me the most about I mean we can we can

02:07:46   rail about this but but

02:07:47   I'm more concerned about the fact that this happened and that and that while I am encouraged by the fact that

02:07:53   it happened and yet somehow the the outcry and the feedback was enough that they they listened to a lot of the

02:08:00   Criticism of it and actually changed some of it which they say is what the beta process is for but it isn't always true

02:08:07   And I appreciate that yet. I am also extremely worried one that somehow this got in the keynote without

02:08:15   What it's not without anybody criticizing it

02:08:18   so without anybody criticizing it to the point that made it clear that they needed to put the brakes on it and that to as

02:08:25   The summer went along that whatever they had they felt was shippable when it's really bad and and this all

02:08:33   Could have been avoided like this all could have been avoided and they could have set save face by saying look

02:08:38   We've got your feedback. It's very important to us. We're not going to ship the new version of Safari right away

02:08:43   We will we will come back with changes and you're gonna love it

02:08:46   But instead they just sort of made a few changes in the summer and shipped it and it's it why that was allowed to happen

02:08:53   That's what worries me, right?

02:08:55   It's we wasted all of our bullets fixing getting getting iOS Safari fixed and iOS Safari as as it

02:09:02   Appeared in beta one was way worse. I mean it was catastrophically bad the worst and

02:09:07   And indeed they fixed it I still I

02:09:14   Really question whether they should have the address bar on the bottom. That was the first of my wife when she upgraded

02:09:20   Was like what the hell is this and she never comes to me and complains like about things like that

02:09:25   Like I interface changes she but like two minutes into using iOS 15 on iPhone

02:09:32   She was on a web page and she was like what the hell is this and I said, oh you can hear go to the AA

02:09:36   menu

02:09:38   Address bar on top and she was like, okay. Thank you

02:09:40   And then she hasn't been back to me since but I still think it was a bad default

02:09:44   And I know people let some people like it but I to me they should not have changed that because I'm telling you

02:09:49   It's it's a big change for people who don't like big change to to I think it's great as an option

02:09:55   But I just don't think it should be the default but overall iOS Safari. Let's call it fixed. It's a good update

02:10:01   It looks good. The tab closed buttons are in the wrong corner. I

02:10:05   think that the address bar probably should still be at the top by default, but uh,

02:10:11   Could hear the argument otherwise max Safari tabs disaster. This is one of the worst things Apple has ever shipped

02:10:16   Yeah, I can't disagree and I'm telling you

02:10:20   I don't I don't have analytics on daring fireball at the moment I because I got rid of Google Analytics last year for

02:10:25   Privacy reasons and I looking at some privacy

02:10:28   Respecting packages. So I don't know my exact numbers and I don't think my audience is quite

02:10:37   Representative of anything as a whole but I would not be surprised that among websites that have

02:10:43   representative audiences of you know, the general public Safari for Mac is going to if is going to see a

02:10:51   significant decrease in in users because of this because I and because this is the thing nerds might argue about the difference in what you

02:11:01   know support for progressive web apps and

02:11:04   Aggressive support of the latest and greatest standards and stuff like that, but you know what normal people care about like

02:11:09   Do I understand what tab is that is active? Does this look right? Does this look like a normal web browser?

02:11:14   Yep, and that's a real shame because you know, it's not the WebKit people who chose this

02:11:20   this is some kind of human interface thing and so all of this hard work that they put into WebKit and

02:11:25   Safari is the only

02:11:27   Major WebKit browser no offense to like iCAB and I know there's a few other browsers that are esoteric

02:11:33   But if you want a mainstream browser that uses WebKit on your Mac

02:11:37   Your choice is Safari and the reason that Safari is the only one is that Safari has been so good as a Mac app

02:11:44   Yeah, and I just don't want to get like also the Safari team built tab groups and I think tab groups are pretty great

02:11:54   Yeah

02:11:54   a new feature and they auto sync across and you can put throw your tabs in there and

02:11:58   It's really easy to throw things into groups and then they live on all your devices and like it's such a great tab

02:12:03   feature and yet again, it's in this release that's so broken in so many other ways and and

02:12:08   Sadly makes tabs worse like that. Why did that have to happen at the same time?

02:12:13   It's a shame because that's a great feature. Yeah. Anyway, well enough ranting Jason. Thank you as always

02:12:20   For joining. I will thank our our sponsors. We had Squarespace where you can go to

02:12:26   Build a website we had earnest where you can refinance your student loans at a great rate and

02:12:34   Sanity I owe the talk show also news from you before we go you've got a new podcast coming now

02:12:40   This is what I've been telling you for years Jason. What you need is to do more podcasts more podcasts in my life. Yeah, I know

02:12:47   There's so many but this is really taking the place of a podcast that we stopped last year called the TV talk machine that I used

02:12:54   To do with Tim Goodman who was the chief TV critic at The Hollywood Reporter and Tim retired from TV criticism

02:13:00   To become a TV writer. He got a development deal great great for him

02:13:04   I hope one of his shows gets picked up someday. That would be really awesome

02:13:08   But we used to talk more than his reviews of TV shows

02:13:12   we ended up spending lots of time talking about the streaming wars and peak TV and

02:13:17   Amazon and Apple and Netflix getting into the business and Disney and

02:13:22   Warner

02:13:23   Countering and and what the future of TV was gonna be linear versus streaming and all of this stuff

02:13:28   Like I think it's really fascinating. It's it's changing really fast. Everybody wants to be one of the big companies

02:13:35   That's left at the end

02:13:37   Because a bunch of them are gonna lose but the ones who win are they're gonna be kings and I love talking to Tim

02:13:43   about that

02:13:44   I

02:13:45   Got the impression that his editors at THR just wanted him to review lots of shows and he was much more interested in talking about

02:13:51   The future of TV than he was about this crappy sitcom

02:13:55   And and so when that show ended I have had a TV talk machine sized hole in my life

02:14:01   And we talked about some of that stuff on upgrade, but it's usually pretty Apple TV focused

02:14:06   occasionally we spread out and in August I did a guest episode with Julie Alexander who used to cover this stuff for The Verge and

02:14:13   Polygon and IGN and now her job is literally to be an analyst in this space for parrot research

02:14:20   So they do research on like demand for various shows and various streaming services and lots of great stuff

02:14:27   And I always thought she was really great

02:14:28   She was a great guest on upgrade and at that at that point

02:14:32   Basically, we started talking about could we do this as a podcast? So it's called downstream. It starts October 6th. We have a zero episode

02:14:39   That's like a sample episode

02:14:41   We recorded last month and an intro just to kind of get it into Apple podcasts and stuff

02:14:45   But the real stuff starts October 6th. So if you're interested in sort of the future of the business of binging and

02:14:52   Other stuff like that. We're gonna do every other week me and Julie Alexander talking about it

02:14:58   So it is a new podcast for me, but I feel like I was holding open that spot when TV TM shut down

02:15:04   Hoping that I would be able to put something else in there and this is what we're gonna do

02:15:08   All right, you call it right now is Apple gonna get the NFL Sunday ticket. I

02:15:13   Think they are

02:15:15   Unless Amazon kind of out bids them and the reason for that is I think we've seen Apple

02:15:22   Apple's really interested in live and and a lot of its competitors aren't like Disney's interested in live

02:15:29   And that's ESPN. So maybe

02:15:31   Amazon's interested in live and they actually have an NFL package next year that they're gonna start doing

02:15:38   Netflix is not interested in live things as far as I can tell and live has its own like live streaming

02:15:44   You've got to hit a peak demand. You can't just put it on your CDN

02:15:48   You've got to actually serve it and your your servers have to have to survive and I think Apple

02:15:54   Sees live sports is the future Sunday ticket seems to be one of the things that would get them on the map in terms of live sports

02:16:00   so

02:16:02   If I had to I think there may be the favorite for it at this point from what I've seen

02:16:06   Maybe not over a 50% chance

02:16:08   But I think maybe they're the favorite because they want to make their mark in in live

02:16:11   Live events and they haven't gotten there other than their own product events. They haven't gotten there

02:16:17   and so I think Apple is gonna do a sports play of some kind and Sunday ticket is a pretty good one because

02:16:22   You for those who don't know that's like every

02:16:25   NFL game that's out of market and you can just watch them all you can pick your favorite team from out of market and watch

02:16:31   Their game I that has some interesting kind of interface

02:16:35   Possibilities to it that I think Apple would really get into it's been exclusive to direct TV TV maybe from the get-go

02:16:42   Yeah

02:16:42   and

02:16:43   It direct TV is now owned by AT&T and they spend three billion dollars a year or something like that on the NFL Sunday ticket

02:16:50   And make a billion from it

02:16:51   But supposedly I make it up by getting people to sign up for direct TV and AT&T

02:16:55   That's like AT&T at this point say we don't care. We don't care about whoever

02:16:58   whoever

02:17:00   Pays for Sunday ticket is overpaying because they have the strategy reason why they want to get people on their platform a Apple

02:17:07   I mean Apple is absolutely one of those people to say we are gonna overpay

02:17:12   Because we want people to we want their credit card and we want them to sign up for Apple

02:17:17   TV plus or sports plus or whatever they want to do next

02:17:20   That's the reason you'd pay for something like Sunday ticket because you will overpay you'll never make the money back

02:17:25   But you'll get people in your system one of the big customers for this or it's like a sports bar type place that wants to

02:17:32   Have all the games so that you know

02:17:34   no matter which game you want to see you can go to that bar and watch the game that you want to see and

02:17:40   This I know that the Apple's

02:17:43   TV strategy isn't really about selling TV hardware Apple TV hardware

02:17:48   But that's a that's a use case where they might sell a lot of Apple TVs, right?

02:17:52   like where the best way to like run a sports bar where you show every single Sunday game is to just buy like three Apple TVs

02:17:58   And hook them up to TVs and and like you said it's an interface challenge

02:18:01   And that's the type of thing Apple could make really really nice where it's really really a good interface

02:18:06   For the people who run the establishment to be like, okay, we'll put the Kansas City game over there

02:18:12   We'll put the 49ers over there and we'll put the the Dallas game on that TV over there

02:18:16   And we better put it we better put a second version of the Dallas game over here because there's lots of Dallas fans

02:18:21   It's plus it allows them to potentially innovate and like drop the radio broadcasts on so you could listen to the radio broadcast instead of

02:18:27   The TV there's all sorts of stuff you can do once you've got those things on streaming instead of just on sort of more linear

02:18:32   Satellite I did see a story the other day from a guy who runs a bar who said oh

02:18:36   I hope it doesn't go to streaming because my internet isn't fast enough to stream seven different games at once

02:18:42   Which I get but I also think dude, you're a cheapskate

02:18:46   Upgrade your internet right and direct TV is not that great a stream, you know

02:18:51   it's it's not and also I would say I think some of those bars are gonna lose customers because

02:18:56   To install a satellite dish on your roof just to get to direct TV. It's a big big thresholds to cross

02:19:04   Whereas just clicking a button on on a streamer box whether it's Apple or somebody else and say yes

02:19:10   Give this to me and not have to install hardware just to get it

02:19:15   it's gonna be a much more successful package than it was before because that was the whole idea is like I

02:19:20   Got direct TV for NFL Sunday ticket. In fact when I bought my house, I was like, okay

02:19:25   I guess we're getting satellite TV because I want that package and

02:19:28   You know

02:19:29   It's a lot to like put a box in your house and a giant dish on your roof and it tied to your chimney and stuff

02:19:35   Like that and this is gonna be way easier

02:19:37   So I think the access is gonna be better for consumers and maybe few fewer people will go to the bar seeking out that

02:19:43   Philadelphia Eagles game I think the I think that I think Apple's gonna get it. Anyway, that's my prediction

02:19:47   Yeah, anyway, stay tuned for that show. I think it's gonna be good. Thank you. Once again, Jason. This is fun

02:19:53   Yeah, except for the Safari taps part

02:19:55   so the

02:19:58   JG

02:20:00   Why do they call you that

02:20:03   (laughs)