The Talk Show

290: ‘The Least Worst’, With Christina Warren


00:00:00   Christina Warren, welcome to the talk show.

00:00:02   It's good to have you.

00:00:03   It's good to be here.

00:00:05   Thanks for having me.

00:00:05   It is the end of July and ordinarily we often have nothing to talk about, but

00:00:11   re rehashing two month old WWDC news.

00:00:15   And instead it is absolutely impossible to whittle the list of

00:00:21   possible things to talk about.

00:00:22   That is bizarre.

00:00:23   What is going on that, uh, that the news is so overwhelming when we're, when we're

00:00:28   locked in, there's gotta be some kind of cause and effect here.

00:00:32   Yeah, I think so.

00:00:33   I think is that we don't have, like people have written about like the concept of

00:00:36   doom scrolling where you kind of can't stop scrolling through all like the

00:00:39   terrible things that are happening and you're kind of addicted to it.

00:00:42   And I kind of feel like that's part of it, but even like putting the tenor aside,

00:00:46   whether it's good or bad, it's just the fact that there's like nothing else to do.

00:00:51   So some people are more productive than others.

00:00:56   One of my favorite artists, Taylor Swift, just released a surprise

00:00:59   album and it's very good.

00:01:00   And I was like, and I've been shit posting on Twitter.

00:01:04   Like I I've, that's been my pandemic, right?

00:01:07   Like I've been trying to like figure out, well, days blend into one another too.

00:01:12   Right.

00:01:13   I, has that been the case for you?

00:01:14   Because I know it's been so weird because even though I've worked remotely somewhat,

00:01:20   um, for the last couple of years and, and a lot of that has been on the road in

00:01:24   another place, it's like, this is just so weird.

00:01:26   Like I never know what day or what week it is.

00:01:28   It all blends together.

00:01:29   I think that's part of it too.

00:01:30   Like there's just always delusion of things and we never know what day we're on.

00:01:34   Yeah, it is true.

00:01:35   And, uh, you know, it's, I'm not even complaining because it is suits me and

00:01:41   it's, you know, it certainly is my good fortune in life that I've eked out a

00:01:46   career and if it suits my personality that I, on a day to day basis, if you were

00:01:52   just watching what I do, you may not know whether the footage is of me during

00:01:57   coronavirus times or me a year ago or hopefully a year from now.

00:02:02   I mean, it's, and that's no exaggeration.

00:02:05   There are, there are many days pre-corona where I didn't leave the house.

00:02:10   Sure.

00:02:11   But you could, right?

00:02:13   Like that, that changes it for me because there, I definitely did leave the house

00:02:19   and that's been weird for me.

00:02:20   I'm like, I'm cooped up.

00:02:21   But there have been times in my life where I'm like you, like I would be

00:02:23   completely content to just like stay indoors and not go anywhere, but not being

00:02:29   able to go anywhere.

00:02:29   Yeah.

00:02:31   And, and you know, we have, our son is in heading into 11th grade, you know, and so

00:02:36   it's school during the school year.

00:02:39   That certainly anchors the concept of weekdays and weekends concretely.

00:02:45   And even in summer vacations of the past, you know, that's when we would take

00:02:50   vacations, we would travel and there, even then there still seemed to be more, much

00:02:55   more of a cohesive sense of, Hey, it's Friday.

00:02:59   Should we go out to what you guys want to, you know, should we go out as a family

00:03:02   and have dinner?

00:03:03   Um, you know, it's just the stupidest, most obvious thing in the world.

00:03:09   Everybody knows, you know, restaurants are more crowded on Friday and Saturday

00:03:14   nights because that's when people go out and that's when we would go out.

00:03:17   Cause it's just what you do.

00:03:20   It's what you do.

00:03:20   Right.

00:03:20   And it's like not even thinking, like not even having that on the table is really

00:03:27   helps blur the whole thing.

00:03:29   And you know, and there's just all sorts of things that aren't happening.

00:03:32   Sports don't happen.

00:03:33   I mean, baseball is a thing I'm a big fan of and they just started playing last

00:03:37   night and I'm like, God, is it weird?

00:03:39   But it's, you know, there's, there's just things that anchor days.

00:03:43   There's Sunday night baseball on ESPN, you know, and it's not that different, but

00:03:47   it's, you know, it's just a thing.

00:03:49   But there's stuff.

00:03:50   There are things that happen, like movies come out, you know, and yeah.

00:03:53   How, how is your son doing, um, with, with all this stuff?

00:03:57   Cause he's what, like 16, I guess, or 17 and 16.

00:04:01   So I don't know.

00:04:03   I don't know.

00:04:04   It's 16.

00:04:04   He's 16.

00:04:05   16.

00:04:05   Okay.

00:04:05   So yeah.

00:04:06   Yeah.

00:04:06   16.

00:04:06   Cause he's going into 11th grade.

00:04:07   Like how is, how is he dealing with this?

00:04:09   Cause it's gotta be super weird to be that age, especially when I don't know what the

00:04:14   age people can get their licenses in Pennsylvania.

00:04:16   But, um, you know, it's the time people start to drive and people have friends who

00:04:20   have cars and things like that and you finally get your mobility.

00:04:23   So the driving thing is the driving thing is an issue and is curious because we live

00:04:28   right in the city.

00:04:29   Uh, he has no interest in it.

00:04:30   He could, 16 is when you can get a driver's license in Pennsylvania.

00:04:33   It's actually a source of minor contention within the family.

00:04:39   Um, which is completely, you know, total generational shift.

00:04:44   Like,

00:04:44   Oh yeah.

00:04:45   My wife and I were 16 and we lived in the Pennsylvania suburbs.

00:04:48   Couldn't wait to get our driver's license.

00:04:50   Cause like you said, it meant freedom, you know, all of a sudden you don't have to

00:04:54   ask your parents to drive you to the movie, you and your pals to the movie theater.

00:04:57   It was, you know, you could drive somebody if somebody, if one of your gang had a

00:05:02   car, you could all just pile into it and go to the movies.

00:05:04   And in hindsight, also in hindsight, let me apologize to my own parents.

00:05:09   Because as of now, I, if I, if my son wanted me to ask if I could be the parent

00:05:15   to drive the gang to the movie theater and somebody, you know, even if, you know,

00:05:19   and, and somebody else's parent has already agreed to pick up, that was the

00:05:23   thing who's going to drive, who's going to pick up.

00:05:25   Uh, I mean, I would do it and I'd be a good sport about it.

00:05:29   I wouldn't, you know, I'd go in and try to, you know, you know, say hi, be

00:05:33   friendly, but also not be the awkward dad who talks to dad, you know?

00:05:37   Yeah.

00:05:37   I think I, I think I'm a good, I think I'm good at that.

00:05:40   I think I have a good, you know, I don't look like I don't want to be there, but I

00:05:43   also am not, you know, I know my role is the taxi driver is not to be the one

00:05:48   talking.

00:05:49   Um, but the fact that I don't never have to do that is actually a great relief.

00:05:54   But anyway, the source of contention is that my wife is of the opinion and I, I

00:05:58   tend to side with her that it is sort of like learning to swim.

00:06:03   And even if you don't enjoy swimming, it is an excellent life skill because then

00:06:08   if you're ever, you know, in the water, you rather than drowning, you can do it.

00:06:15   Um, and that learning to drive a car is like that.

00:06:18   Even if you live in a city and do not want to ever own a car and you don't

00:06:24   really need to, it is an excellent life skill to have in an emergency.

00:06:28   Yeah, she's right.

00:06:30   I don't drive and I mean, I have driven, but I don't have a driver's license.

00:06:35   I haven't in, I mean, like 15, 16 years at least.

00:06:42   And even when I did, when I was your son's age, I had a car, I didn't have a

00:06:46   license.

00:06:47   My friends would just drive my car.

00:06:49   But your wife is kind of right because, yeah, right.

00:06:51   I was like that.

00:06:52   I mean, it was perfect for me.

00:06:53   I was like, I don't want to drive.

00:06:54   You want to drive me around?

00:06:54   That's fine.

00:06:56   And my parents never had like a problem, you know, uh, taking me places if I needed

00:07:00   that.

00:07:00   And I was always able to figure it out.

00:07:01   But even though I've lived in cities where I don't need that and then, you know,

00:07:05   the, you know, advent of Uber and stuff like that, uh, it's been fine until now.

00:07:11   And now in these times where you don't feel super comfortable getting in a car

00:07:15   with someone and I don't want to rely on my husband to have to take me places and

00:07:19   whatnot.

00:07:19   Like I've actually been thinking, I'm like, I might have to, when, you know,

00:07:23   things are safer, like take some driving lessons and I don't want to own a car,

00:07:28   but, but get that skill.

00:07:30   So your wife has a point.

00:07:31   It is.

00:07:31   It's an interesting area of corona time.

00:07:34   So anyway, our son's 16, legally could drive.

00:07:36   My wife wanted him to.

00:07:38   And probably if this hadn't happened, it might've happened by now.

00:07:41   But, and even though we own a car and could, I guess, teach him to drive, I

00:07:45   don't know, it just seems like why bother in corona times, but he has no interest

00:07:48   in it.

00:07:49   It honestly, it honestly, it sounds to him like, would you like to sign up?

00:07:53   To take extra classes and learn a bunch of rules to take a test that you have no

00:07:59   interest in actually using.

00:08:00   I mean, like it might as well be like, you know, learning to fix the plumbing in

00:08:05   your house.

00:08:06   Again, not a bad thing to learn.

00:08:07   It's not like he's saying nobody should learn to drive, but he doesn't want to be

00:08:10   a plumber.

00:08:11   So why should he learn?

00:08:12   Why should he go and take a test for that?

00:08:14   So he doesn't even want to drive, which is crazy.

00:08:16   But he, you know, we live in the city, his pals mostly live in the city and the ones

00:08:20   who don't live in the city come to, you know, cause the school is there.

00:08:24   So not an issue.

00:08:26   One of them has a car.

00:08:27   Like that's all you need.

00:08:27   You just need somebody to have it.

00:08:28   Nobody needs a car.

00:08:29   I don't think any of his friends know how to drive or will learn how to drive.

00:08:32   Most, it's a very, Philly is a very walkable city.

00:08:35   I think that, you know, the issue, you know, the thing is, the thing that the kids

00:08:38   want to be able to do is take Ubers, not, um, not learn to drive.

00:08:43   And so like, what, that makes sense.

00:08:44   Hey, can I take the car?

00:08:45   You know, when I was 16, it was, can I take the car?

00:08:48   My parents like, uh, I don't know.

00:08:49   Of course, you know, I'll just tell you the story.

00:08:51   I had the first time, I think it was the very first time my parents let

00:08:54   me drive their car to the movie.

00:08:56   I, it was a rainy night and I was driving downhill on the way back from the movie,

00:09:01   way too fast, put on the brakes, the car didn't quite stop.

00:09:04   And I ran into the back of a Cadillac in front of me.

00:09:08   I mean, and nobody got hurt.

00:09:09   It was like true fender bender, but it was like, uh, you know, fenders were bent.

00:09:14   Insurance was called.

00:09:17   I mean, it was the worst.

00:09:18   It's exactly why you don't want to give your car to a 16 year old.

00:09:21   It's terrible.

00:09:22   So anyway, the thing that kids today, at least in the city want is they want

00:09:26   permission to be able to take Ubers.

00:09:28   Of course, that's all pre Corona time.

00:09:29   Right.

00:09:30   No, that's, yeah.

00:09:31   I mean, I think, and I guess that makes total sense.

00:09:33   I grew up in the suburbs and we weren't far from the city, but I could see that

00:09:37   like, it would be expensive if like eight of us were trying to take a car someplace

00:09:41   or if you want to go together, that would be the only reason I could maybe see

00:09:44   some kids wanting it.

00:09:46   But I think you're right.

00:09:47   Like, I mean, it's, it's weird.

00:09:49   When I moved from New York to Seattle, there was some kind of thought that was

00:09:54   like, Oh, are you going to have to drive now?

00:09:55   I was like, no.

00:09:56   And so I chose the neighborhood I live in and I chose like to be near the bus that

00:10:01   takes me to work.

00:10:02   Like I have like a company bus that takes me to work, but I could take a regular bus

00:10:06   as well.

00:10:07   And you know, you just pick and choose that stuff.

00:10:09   That said, for things like if I wanted to own my own house, um, I would have to

00:10:16   drive.

00:10:17   And so I'm not a homeowner for that and other reasons.

00:10:21   Also the, the, the sheer cost, but yeah.

00:10:23   So anyway, how's he doing?

00:10:25   He's doing fine.

00:10:26   I think that for the boys, their socialization is largely online anyway.

00:10:32   I mean, like his summer this year is really not that different from last year.

00:10:36   They don't, they get together to me and from my 16 year old self who always wanted

00:10:42   to get the hell out of the house.

00:10:43   I mean, I love my parents.

00:10:44   I still have a great relationship with them, but by the time I was 16, I was ready to

00:10:48   get the hell out.

00:10:49   Um, I wanted to get out every day, um, and stay, stay out as long as I could get away

00:10:55   with.

00:10:55   They don't, they don't really get together.

00:10:57   I mean, they're socialization.

00:10:59   And maybe if I had the, you know, and you know, it's just all about the internet, you

00:11:02   know, that he's socializing way more hours of the day than I ever did.

00:11:06   You know, it's, they're, they're just online together all the time.

00:11:10   And he has a, you know, gaming PC where he can play these amazing video games.

00:11:14   I guess I wouldn't have left the house either.

00:11:17   I think the girls, you know, we've asked him and I think the girls are taking it a

00:11:21   little harder and I think they still do get together in ways, you know, socially

00:11:26   distant, responsible ways, hopefully.

00:11:28   Um, but even before the quarantine, the girls in his class got together in ways that

00:11:35   seem much more familiar to me as the way that 10th and 11th, 12th grade teenagers

00:11:41   socialize and get together than the boys did.

00:11:43   Yeah, that's interesting.

00:11:45   Yeah.

00:11:45   So we have a car.

00:11:46   We have, we own one car.

00:11:48   Uh, it's a 2006 that we bought new.

00:11:51   I think it has just under 55,000 miles.

00:11:55   So we just, we don't drive much.

00:11:57   We have in the past even thought like, what do we do?

00:12:00   Should we get a new car?

00:12:01   I mean, it's a 2006 car is sold that, uh, it didn't even have, we were one year

00:12:07   before Acura put in the 30 pin iPod connectors.

00:12:13   So we don't even have the 30 pin connector, let alone anything that you could connect

00:12:18   a modern phone to.

00:12:19   There's nothing in there.

00:12:20   You know, it's in terms of what you would connect for a road trip.

00:12:25   It is, you know, it's dark ages.

00:12:28   So we need a new car, but we don't drive.

00:12:30   I mean, a car is in fantastic shape.

00:12:32   Like I said, it doesn't even have 50,000 miles, but in the Corona time, we're like, Ooh, it's

00:12:36   good that we own a car, right?

00:12:38   Because we, um, I wouldn't want to take an Uber and Uber would be one of the last things

00:12:43   I'd want to do because you're in an enclosed space with somebody who, you know, is visit,

00:12:48   you know, they're there.

00:12:49   Who's been with a bunch of other people.

00:12:50   Right.

00:12:51   Um, so if we were going to drive anywhere, we would definitely drive our own car, but

00:12:58   we drive so little in quarantine that the, my car battery didn't just die.

00:13:05   It died like hard, like the way that you can't even like when you, you know, I have one of

00:13:09   those dinguses where you connect it to the, you know, plug it in the wall and it'll, you

00:13:13   know, take a kind of dead battery and charge it up.

00:13:15   It was like dead to dead to dead because I, and I was like, huh, I thought I started this

00:13:20   car up a while ago.

00:13:21   And then I was thinking about it and it was like, well, wait, I did drive to pick up take

00:13:25   out on Easter and then it was on Mother's Day when the car wouldn't start.

00:13:34   And I was like, well, wait.

00:13:35   And I was like, well, wait, Easter was soon.

00:13:36   Nope.

00:13:38   That was like six weeks.

00:13:38   Yeah.

00:13:39   All right.

00:13:39   Six weeks without starting the car.

00:13:40   Yeah, I guess that would do it.

00:13:41   But in terms of the time, it felt like this is crazy.

00:13:47   I just drove the car like a week ago and then, you know, it was like six weeks.

00:13:50   Right.

00:13:51   Well, that's the whole thing is we were saying earlier is that days are all blending together.

00:13:54   All right.

00:13:54   So now, now I've got a weekly reminder.

00:13:56   We put our trash out on Sunday nights and now before I take the trash out, I start the

00:14:00   car up and drive it around the block.

00:14:02   That's good.

00:14:03   That's smart.

00:14:03   Okay.

00:14:04   Cause, cause it's funny.

00:14:05   Um, the Jeep that I had, it just feels like busy work.

00:14:08   It's the worst busy work.

00:14:09   Oh, totally.

00:14:10   Well, the Jeep that I had when I was in high school that I didn't drive, my friends drove,

00:14:14   ran into that same problem where it wouldn't be started or used for a while.

00:14:17   And that was like actually the impetus between my parents, like letting my friends like drive

00:14:22   my car was that they were like, it's, it's just going to sit here and you know, it's

00:14:28   the battery will die, die, die.

00:14:29   So, you know, it's like this needs to be driven.

00:14:32   You're not going to drive it if your friend Kelly wants to drive it.

00:14:35   If, if your boyfriend Ben wants to drive it, if you know other people want to drive it,

00:14:39   like they can.

00:14:40   I was like, okay, fine, awesome.

00:14:42   As long as I don't have to drive it.

00:14:43   All right.

00:14:44   Let me take a break here before we start the meat of the show and thank our first sponsor.

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00:18:14   All right, here's the new thing.

00:18:15   I just, I don't know what order to go through the list, but we might as well start with

00:18:18   what's fresh on my brain.

00:18:19   You put it on the show notes with the G4 Cube 20 years ago.

00:18:24   Steve Jobs introduced the G4 Cube.

00:18:27   You know what's funny?

00:18:28   I just posted, I just had to show with my last guest was Adam Lisagor.

00:18:32   And he mentioned the G4 Cube, not because it's the 20-year anniversary, but just as an example

00:18:38   of a Steve Jobs keynote that gives him goosebumps in terms of the sort of difference, the evolution

00:18:47   of Apple keynotes from the Steve Jobs era to where we've gotten today.

00:18:51   Yeah.

00:18:51   And the G4.

00:18:53   I remember that one.

00:18:54   Yeah.

00:18:54   I watched it again.

00:18:55   And it's funny because you watch those old ones from 20 years ago and it's like the only

00:18:59   copies are like, I don't quite think they are VHS, but they're like the U.

00:19:05   They're SD.

00:19:05   Yeah. Well, but it's like bad SD.

00:19:08   It's really low bit rate audio.

00:19:13   You know, it's like worse than just 480p.

00:19:16   You know?

00:19:17   Right.

00:19:17   I don't know how to describe it technically.

00:19:19   There's the compression artifacts are pretty significant.

00:19:21   But it's still, it's, you know, you still, it, I wonder if you've never seen it before.

00:19:29   If you don't remember watching it when it was new, whether it would give you the feels like

00:19:34   it does if you knew, but it's, uh, it really was a great introduction.

00:19:38   I think it's a product that gets a bad rap.

00:19:42   Anyway, Steven Levy today published a piece in Wired on the 20 year anniversary of it

00:19:47   and talking about a private briefing he had with Steve Jobs before the announcement.

00:19:52   And then I wrote about it.

00:19:56   What were your thoughts?

00:19:57   Why did you put it in the show notes?

00:19:58   I'm curious.

00:19:59   Yeah.

00:19:59   Well, well, I thought it was kind of interesting what you were saying about how, you know,

00:20:02   Steve Jobs had the ability to go back on his decisions and kind of like rethink things

00:20:08   and say, okay, which, you know, you drew the allusions to the app store and basically,

00:20:14   I thought that was really interesting.

00:20:16   Also, I don't know.

00:20:17   I love the design of the cube.

00:20:19   I always will.

00:20:19   My one takeaway is we had, we had one in my high school and it caught on fire and I was

00:20:27   editing something and it caught on fire and

00:20:32   I'm dead serious.

00:20:33   I'm dead serious.

00:20:34   Like it started smoking and then like continued smoking.

00:20:38   I don't, I don't know if there were ever like big flames, but it definitely like

00:20:41   killed itself, killed my project.

00:20:43   And that distinctive smell of burning electronics.

00:20:45   Oh my God, of burning, of burning like components and plastic.

00:20:49   And I mean, cause you used to see the cracks in them.

00:20:52   And even if you can buy them now, like all of them have cracks and stress stuff.

00:20:55   And, and, you know, it was bad.

00:20:58   It was really, really bad.

00:20:59   It filled the entire media lab with smoke.

00:21:03   It was kind of a disaster.

00:21:04   And that's my one, like the very clear memory of the cube was, it was so beautiful.

00:21:10   And I was like, and it caught on fire.

00:21:12   Which I think, you know, the thermals were notoriously bad.

00:21:17   I think the design, obviously what happened there was kind of a precursor to where things

00:21:22   were going and, and it was certainly in a lot of ways, like set the tone for, you know,

00:21:29   small form factor PCs, things like the Mac mini and even the miniaturization of just

00:21:33   tech in general.

00:21:34   But yeah, there, there were problems.

00:21:36   But, and I do think it's kind of admirable that he didn't just continue at it.

00:21:43   He just kind of admitted, all right, you know what, let's, let's just scrap it and try

00:21:48   something different.

00:21:49   Try it, maybe try it again later if we can.

00:21:51   But like, let's not continue to, even though I think that this design is beautiful in the

00:21:55   future, if it's not working, it's not working.

00:21:57   Honestly, even more than the app store, I think about like the keyboard.

00:22:00   Like, I hate the whole notion of, oh, this never would have happened under Steve because

00:22:06   there were plenty of things that happened under Steve that people would use now.

00:22:10   It's like, oh, that wouldn't have happened.

00:22:12   But I do feel like the keyboard wouldn't have, it wouldn't have been three years.

00:22:15   Yeah, my analogy on that, I liken it to, I'm not sure which card game, but you know, like,

00:22:24   you think about like Uno and it's like, if you've got like a draw four, you want to keep

00:22:30   that, right?

00:22:30   You keep that draw four card, you know?

00:22:34   And the idea isn't that you never play it, right?

00:22:36   You got, you're playing to win.

00:22:37   And it's like the, these Steve Jobs never would have done this card as a pundit or just

00:22:42   commentator on Twitter.

00:22:44   It's like, you should be really conservative with it and keep that in your deck.

00:22:49   Yep.

00:22:49   But it's not, that doesn't mean you never play it, right?

00:22:52   And I think the keyboard is, the keyboard issue with the MacBooks is a good example.

00:22:56   It's, it is good.

00:22:58   They did go back, they did redo it, and they did admit it as best that you could expect

00:23:04   that.

00:23:04   I mean, what do you want them to do?

00:23:05   You know, they're not going to like grovel in front of the world and say, you know, we

00:23:08   really screwed up that keyboard.

00:23:11   You know, they, when they fixed it, they fixed it right.

00:23:14   They really did.

00:23:15   For sure.

00:23:16   And it, the question is, should it have taken three years?

00:23:19   And I think the answer is no.

00:23:21   And I do think that there's a sort of hubristic, success breeds hubris.

00:23:27   Of course it does, right?

00:23:29   And Apple has been extremely successful.

00:23:31   So you really, the more successful you are, the more you have to consciously, really self-consciously

00:23:39   guard against succumbing to hubris.

00:23:41   I think, I think that's true of anything in life, big or small.

00:23:45   No, I think you're right.

00:23:47   And I think that that's actually why so oftentimes, and it's not just Apple, it's any big company,

00:23:52   it's any successful person.

00:23:54   You do have to keep yourself in check because if you don't, you will miss the next coming

00:23:59   thing.

00:23:59   I think that's sometimes why, why some people and companies and things miss trends is they

00:24:04   just don't see it coming because they're not constantly asking those questions.

00:24:08   And I think it's also one of those things where you have to, there's this weird, like,

00:24:14   I guess, feedback loop where if you are so successful and if what you're doing is continuing

00:24:19   to get you not just applause and people cheering for you, but also tons and tons and tons of

00:24:26   money, people are like voting financially with it.

00:24:29   That, I can understand that that creates some sort of dissonance of asking questions.

00:24:34   Is this the right thing or not?

00:24:35   But I think to your point, it's important that you still do that.

00:24:39   And I think it's even more important that if you start to hear, even if it's small comparatively,

00:24:43   if you start to hear the same rumors and the same type of feedback or critiques, or in

00:24:48   some cases just outright, like outrage, like this is bad over and over again, it's important

00:24:53   to, if you can, to try to listen to that and take action on that because that's usually

00:25:00   indicative that something big is happening.

00:25:02   Like when the outline article went out about the keyboard and that wasn't the first thing

00:25:06   that had happened, but it was certainly kind of like the catalyst.

00:25:09   I think that that would be...

00:25:10   >> Casey Johnston's excellent, excellent piece.

00:25:15   >> Yeah, exactly.

00:25:16   And I think that that was definitely the thing that set things in motion.

00:25:20   And to me, I don't know.

00:25:21   I mean, I know that the design cycles and stuff takes a long time, but like, I don't

00:25:24   know.

00:25:25   To me, I feel like that would have been a moment where, like at a company's best, that

00:25:31   would be the sort of thing where you would go, okay, you know what?

00:25:33   We need to regroup because this is going to blow up into something bigger.

00:25:37   And even if it doesn't become what it became, this is representative of something not being

00:25:42   right.

00:25:43   And we need to reassess, is this actually the best thing?

00:25:45   Or like rather than taking the approach of having on background meetings with reporters

00:25:52   to tell them how small the actual replacement rates were and things like that, rather than

00:25:58   kind of taking that approach, which frankly I think comes across to your users as disingenuous

00:26:02   and ends up prolonging something.

00:26:04   And I think both you and I commented on Jason Snell's Apple report card this year about

00:26:11   the long lasting negative impact that the keyboard will have.

00:26:15   >> Yeah.

00:26:15   >> And I frankly worry about that.

00:26:18   Like they have fixed it and it is good, but it's so much harder to win people back than

00:26:25   it is to go in that other direction, right?

00:26:27   Like when you make a mistake or when you lose favor on something, it is so, so, so much

00:26:32   harder to get people back on your side and to forget about that.

00:26:37   And Apple, because they've had so much success, they haven't had to deal with something like

00:26:41   that in a really long time.

00:26:43   And I honestly, it was a much more minor thing, but you look at the way the iPhone 4 was handled

00:26:48   and the antenna gate, they had the bumpers out.

00:26:51   They had that program launch like ASAP.

00:26:54   >> Well, the bumpers were, they debuted with the iPhone 4.

00:27:01   So they didn't create the bumper in response, but what they did is they just said, here,

00:27:05   we'll give everybody a bumper.

00:27:06   We'll just get everybody, but you buy an iPhone 4, you get a bumper.

00:27:09   >> Okay, that's a good point.

00:27:11   >> But still, but it's still, you're right though.

00:27:13   But it's funny though, you totally read my mind because I was going to bring up antenna

00:27:17   gate as the contrast with the keyboard thing.

00:27:20   And the bumpers are fine and the way, because they were trying to make money with the bumpers.

00:27:24   >> Totally.

00:27:25   >> So I feel like they kind of lucked into the bumper thing.

00:27:28   So my theory on the bumper, and I think it's pretty transparently obvious.

00:27:35   I think you'd be very hard pressed to come up with a counter argument that holds water.

00:27:43   So here's my argument on the bumpers.

00:27:46   So there's the iPhone 3G and then the iPhone 3GS.

00:27:53   And then the fourth year, they went to iPhone 4, which is kind of crazy.

00:27:58   Like that's in hindsight, like if you go back like three years on iPhone, yeah, yeah.

00:28:04   But you're still like, what, iPhone 10, it's like mostly the same.

00:28:07   Like going from the original iPhone to the iPhone 4 in three years is pretty impressive.

00:28:16   Because a totally different form factor, totally went from pre-retina to retina.

00:28:22   There were only three iPhones that weren't retina, which is in hindsight kind of crazy

00:28:26   because I still feel like half of the iPhone era was looking at the retina.

00:28:31   >> Right, like fuzziness.

00:28:32   >> Yeah, the fuzziness.

00:28:32   >> Well, not only that, but not only did you have retina, but front-facing camera, which

00:28:37   is the end changer.

00:28:38   >> Yeah, totally.

00:28:38   >> I mean, honestly, I think as much as retina, I would say the front-facing camera is bigger,

00:28:43   honestly, from an impact.

00:28:44   >> Right, and the original one had a back-facing camera that didn't shoot video.

00:28:49   Imagine selling a, and put your finger on the idea that the iPhone 12 years ago is a long

00:28:56   time, right, because we'll come back to this.

00:28:58   But yeah, imagine selling a phone today where there is no front-facing camera, period, and

00:29:05   the back-facing camera doesn't shoot video.

00:29:07   >> Right.

00:29:08   >> So just put aside the quality of the back-facing stills, because they were at least comparable

00:29:14   to the other cameras of the time.

00:29:15   >> Sure.

00:29:15   >> They were in line.

00:29:17   But it didn't even shoot video.

00:29:18   It's insane, and it just doesn't seem that long ago.

00:29:21   But anyway, I think one of the things that happened in those crazy first three, four,

00:29:27   five years of iPhone, where it went from, it just didn't exist, seemed too good to be

00:29:35   true, to here we are, it's iPhone 4, it's a totally new design, it's gone from non-retina

00:29:41   to retina, but I think one of the things that happened around, and they had this thing,

00:29:46   and it continued for a few years, where each new iPhone for at least six or seven years

00:29:52   not only outsold all of the previous ones, but it outsold all of the previous ones combined.

00:29:59   >> Yeah.

00:30:00   >> So that was true past the iPhone 4, but the 3GS was so popular that it outsold the

00:30:07   iPhone original and the 3G combined. But I think one of the things that happened as it

00:30:13   exploded in popularity and clearly quickly went from the people who listened to the talk

00:30:21   show, like me and you, who waited in line for the original one, to real people out in

00:30:29   the world buying these, was that everybody was putting them in cases.

00:30:33   And it clearly was not meant to be put in a case, but normal people buy a $700 phone

00:30:41   and they think, "I don't want to break the damn thing, I'm going to put it in a case."

00:30:45   And I think the whole story of the bumpers is that Apple was like, "Oh my God, we've

00:30:49   spent all this time making these things look good." And yeah, the 3G and 3GS don't look

00:30:56   that great because we went to this plastic back for antenna reasons and blah, blah, blah,

00:31:00   but look, we've not only beaten that, we've gone to this glass back steel side design

00:31:08   with the iPhone 4 that's really awesome. Apparently is more what they had in mind at the outset

00:31:15   in 2005, 2006 when they were developing the original iPhone all along. And in fact, according

00:31:22   to rumors, is where they're going later this year with next generation iPhone 12s, this

00:31:27   sort of flat back, flat sides sort of aesthetic that we now see on the iPad Pro. It's a great

00:31:34   look, it seems more timeless, you can see why they're going for it. And I think it's

00:31:39   very clear, they thought, "Oh my God, and everybody's going to put it in a case."

00:31:42   Right? And so they thought, "Well, why don't we, if they just want to protect the damn

00:31:48   thing, how about we'll make and sell bumpers that leave the back open so you can see them."

00:31:53   Exactly, so it still looks nice. And you can feel it, you can see and feel this glass that

00:31:58   we want you to see and feel because it's nice. That's the reason the bumpers existed,

00:32:03   I think, clearly. I agree with that, I agree with that. I think it's also telling that,

00:32:08   you know, other than the battery cases, that the first cases that Apple really kind of

00:32:12   embraced were very thin, you know, and now they have the clear cases, which I have on

00:32:20   my 11 Pro Max. And I've gone back and forth, I've been a naked phone carrier, been a case

00:32:28   person. Now it wouldn't matter, to be totally honest, because I don't go anywhere. But,

00:32:33   you know, there have been too many times when I've been like, "Okay, if this breaks,

00:32:37   even though I have AppleCare, that's going to take time out of my day, and this is expensive."

00:32:41   And now they're so expensive, I'm like, "No, I'm going to put this in a case." But I think

00:32:45   that they follow the same sort of approach. They're like, "Okay, if we've made these

00:32:49   beautiful designs, we want to do whatever the most minimal thing possible can be."

00:32:53   But then Antennagate happened, and they were like, "Well, we have the bumper, and the

00:32:59   bumper actually solves the whole attenuation problem if you have it, so we'll just give

00:33:02   it to everybody." And then I think they ran away from bumpers permanently, because bumpers

00:33:07   became associated with Antennagate. Oh, that's a great point. Oh, that's an excellent point,

00:33:13   because it would be interesting. Like, now you could actually see, I wouldn't mind if I had some

00:33:17   sort of thin kind of bumper thing. I would actually like that, but I think you're exactly

00:33:21   right, because when I think bumper, the first thing I think is Antennagate. Like, they're

00:33:25   inextricably twined. I wanted to ask my theory. I don't know if it would work. I'm looking at the

00:33:31   back of my iPhone 11 now. I don't know if a bumper would work with the camera cut out. You might have

00:33:36   to design a phone with the camera inset enough to accommodate it. I don't know, but the whole

00:33:41   idea of bumper-style cases has just gone away. I thought they were great if you were going to,

00:33:46   and I actually knew way more people who used Apple bumpers with the iPhone 4 and 4S than who use

00:33:54   Apple-branded cases now. Like, almost nobody uses Apple-branded cases, even though in my opinion,

00:34:01   they're pretty nice cases. They're very nice. They're very nice, but they're expensive,

00:34:04   and I think that's the big thing. And they're expensive to the point where, to be totally

00:34:09   candid, I don't think it's worth, like, okay, it's $70 or something for the clear case for the Pro Max,

00:34:16   I think. A Spigen case is going to be like $20. It's nicer than the Spigen case. I don't think

00:34:23   it's $50 nicer. So that makes it hard, I think, for, and for a lot of people, they won't even

00:34:28   acknowledge that there's a, they won't even know that there's a difference, you know? So I think

00:34:32   that's the struggle. Like, the leather cases, I feel the same way about the iPad. I'm so mad

00:34:36   about my Smart Cover that I got from my 11-inch iPad Pro. That thing was so expensive, and it's

00:34:42   probably the worst Apple cover case anything I've ever owned. And it's falling apart. I need a new

00:34:48   one. But I also, like, am adamantly angry about having to spend that much money on this, you know,

00:34:57   like, magnet with, like, a flap. My wife has the 13-inch or 12.9-inch iPad Pro, and it's not,

00:35:07   not no keyboard cover, just, you know, just the cover cover. I don't know what you call it.

00:35:12   Yeah, the Smart Cover. Yeah, that's what I've got.

00:35:14   I get so confused because it's like, there's the Smart Cover and the Smart,

00:35:16   it's like, what's smart about it? I don't know why they call it smart. Like, the Smart

00:35:20   Keyboard is kind of smart because it's a keyboard, but like, a cover is kind of dumb. Like,

00:35:26   not in a negative way. So I'm sure they're totally, I'm not advocating them recalling

00:35:30   it the dumb cover. No, I think the reason they did originally was that the first ones had, like,

00:35:34   the magnet abilities. Right, right. It could open, it could turn it on, like, when you would open it

00:35:38   up. And so the ones that were like, like, polyethylene or vinyl or whatever, they would,

00:35:43   you know, be able to kind of fold and she would stand. I think that was the big difference was

00:35:47   that when you open it up, your iPad would turn on and when you closed it, it would turn off.

00:35:51   It's the same way that I completely forget. Once it's two years out of date, I completely forget

00:35:57   the which named version of Mac OS goes to which version number, like, yeah, like I do. And I love

00:36:03   it when they go and they do lion then mountain lion because I know mountain lion came after lion,

00:36:08   but damn if I can tell you what what number it was. I don't know. You know,

00:36:12   yeah, all the cats. I know all the cats and it's when they get into like the the Sierra and

00:36:18   high Sierra Mavericks and all that. So that's what I'm like. I don't know. I do know high Sierra came

00:36:23   after Sierra. But yes, but anyway, I feel the same way with smart blank. But anyway, my wife's

00:36:30   smart cover for iPad Pro looks like she picked it out of the trash. I mean, it is mine too. Yeah,

00:36:37   it is frayed at the corners and, and every other thing she owns in her life, whether it is technical

00:36:45   or Apple or I almost every other thing she owns from clothing to makeup to kick cooking, equip

00:36:56   stuff, anything she owns or her weightlifting equipment and exercise equipment and her gym stuff.

00:37:03   It all looks like she could send it back and get a refund as new even though she's been using it like

00:37:10   she takes tremendous care of everything she owns. The iPad itself, again, looks like if you just,

00:37:16   you know, wipe the fingerprints off the screen, you could take it back. But the cover, it looks

00:37:22   like she trash picked it. It's unbelievable. I don't understand how that how something so

00:37:28   expensive could be so fragile. But anyway, anyway, we're very short digression on the difference in

00:37:35   how long it took them to address and tennegate and the keyboard. And boy that that antenna gate thing

00:37:41   was very Steve Jobsian. And I wonder I do I often think about that. And I've thought about that. And

00:37:47   it's like, what would happen if they had the something exactly analogous to antenna gate? Now,

00:37:52   would they address it as quickly as they did? It was truly one of the most extraordinary of all

00:37:59   my time covering Apple, it was one of the most extraordinary things I've ever went through. And

00:38:06   I'm so glad that I did I would have been if I had been like a couple years behind on getting into

00:38:10   getting press passes and stuff like that for things like that. I would have been so you know,

00:38:17   like before my time like I wasn't there for like the original iPod introduction in 2012.

00:38:23   After 911. And I always wish boy that would have been a good one. Like Jason Snow was there. And it

00:38:30   seems like that was a good event. Just into in the context of post 911 America, and it was a small

00:38:36   thing. Yeah, and sort of a device that came out of nowhere. But the antenna was so bizarre because it

00:38:42   was like, I'm trying to remember what day the week it happened. It was like, I want to say that that

00:38:51   was I'm pretty sure that it was like, it might have even happened on like a Friday or something.

00:38:56   It was Yeah, that's what I feel like it was really late. Yeah. Because I remember so I was

00:39:01   the first Apple event I ever actually got like a press credential to was for the iPhone four.

00:39:07   And then my flight got in late and I wasn't able to go and I had to send someone else in my place.

00:39:12   And then that person was rude at the antenna gate event the following week. And then that messed up

00:39:18   my Apple relationship for like another two and a half years. So like it set me back and I was so

00:39:24   pissed like like like like Yeah, well, I'm not gonna like put the guy on blast. But if I did,

00:39:29   like people would understand like I totally I'm positive like I'd heard from other people. I was

00:39:34   like, Yeah, I can completely believe that. And so that you know, like mess up my relationship then

00:39:40   like for years like took me like effort to kind of claw back or whatever. And but I remember like

00:39:47   covering it and yeah, so the event happened and then the following week or maybe a few weeks later

00:39:52   whenever it shipped. Yeah, it was like late in the week was like a Thursday or Friday. And it was

00:39:58   early the next week when they had pivoted from the you're holding it wrong to having the the kind of

00:40:06   emergency meeting and issuing everybody the free bumpers or credit if you'd already bought one,

00:40:12   you know, you could get an Apple one or a third party one. And like it's stunning like it

00:40:17   completely it was so quick and it totally I mean, they completely managed the situation in a way

00:40:22   that like, not just comparing it to other Apple issues, but if you look at like an obviously

00:40:28   completely different level, like not even close, but when the when the note seven caught on fire,

00:40:33   like speaking of things catching on fire, when that caught on fire, like Samsung was

00:40:37   so slow to respond to that. And then it caught on fire the second time, like, obviously the

00:40:45   antenna gate completely different thing apples to oranges, but they still responded so quickly that

00:40:51   it was pretty incredible. Honestly, I can't imagine what other event it would have been. So

00:40:56   it must have been antenna gate. And I don't know if it was a Friday or a Thursday or what but

00:41:00   it was like there was one day of the week where somebody from Apple PR called me and inquired

00:41:07   about my availability like maybe Monday. And I was like, yeah, probably and you know, and again,

00:41:12   typical Apple PR wouldn't say what it was about, but it was sort of like but also Apple PR, not

00:41:19   really, you know, was over the phone. So there's no literal winking, but there is when you deal

00:41:26   with them, they won't say anything that would confirm but there's also an acknowledgement

00:41:31   that you know, that I know that we both know this is about the antenna thing. And they don't,

00:41:37   you know, it it, I guess it's sort of not telling you what it's about, but also not gaslighting you

00:41:45   about it. Right? There is sort of a Yeah, you know, like, we won't say it, but yeah. And then

00:41:52   it was like a callback. And instead of like talking about Monday, it was like, could you be

00:41:56   here tomorrow morning? And it was, you know, from Philadelphia, that's actually like, I don't know,

00:42:01   that's hard. And I remember it because the thing that I remember is I flew an airline that I've

00:42:06   never flown before or after probably the Delta or United like Delta and United are major airlines,

00:42:13   but they have like, almost no presence in Philadelphia. Everything's at the time was

00:42:19   US Air now it's American. But at the time, also American when US Air and American were different,

00:42:26   they were actually both pretty big in Philly and Southwest. And it was like the only flight,

00:42:31   not the only way to get to San Francisco that night was like a United flight. It was like two

00:42:38   in the afternoon, it was like a 430 flight didn't actually cost that much. I guess it's sort of like

00:42:45   that that whole game you play with last minute travel where it's like, sometimes they'll,

00:42:49   they'll like charge you first class flight prices for the seat next to the toilet in the back of the

00:42:56   plane. And other times they're like, Oh my god, you'll buy this an empty seat on this plane that's

00:43:01   leaving in two hours? Sure, here is 400 bucks. And it's like, Oh, that's not bad. You know, and like,

00:43:06   like the price wasn't a problem. It was Can I can I pack a bag and get there?

00:43:13   Right? It's like, it's like, is there enough time, right? And I just checked. It was actually 10

00:43:18   years ago last week, the time that it changed was July 12, when Consumer Reports, which was a Monday,

00:43:24   and Consumer Reports basically said that it couldn't recommend the iPhone for because of

00:43:28   the antenna issues. And then they had the event on the 16th, which would have been a Friday. So

00:43:33   it was a Friday. So it was like a Thursday, and it was Thursday. And I didn't. So I got the call,

00:43:37   like, Philadelphia time, like two in the afternoon, like, hey, we're gonna do it. We're gonna have

00:43:41   it a thing tomorrow morning. I was on like a 415 United flight to SFO, you know, and I pack light

00:43:49   and I live close to the airport. So actually, I remember it was actually wasn't even hectic.

00:43:53   It was like, it wasn't even like, I'm, oh, God is how old I am. OJ Simpson running down the

00:43:58   airport terminal. You know, it was like casual, but it was like, all of a sudden, I'm like,

00:44:05   you know, on an airplane to California and two and a half hours before I thought I was, you know,

00:44:10   sitting at home. But it was that quick, that fast. And it's sort of, you know, not that they were

00:44:18   winging it, but that they literally at the last minute, you know, and again, would Apple do this

00:44:22   today impossible to it's really hard to conceive that they would that they opened the event with

00:44:27   Jonathan Mann's iPhone for antenna song, which in jobs was dancing to it, which is so great. Like,

00:44:34   there's the little moment where you could like see him dancing to if you don't like it, don't buy it.

00:44:38   Like, you don't like it. And I, I don't think john I've, I've spoken to Jonathan Mann several times

00:44:45   about it. It was a huge thrill for him. They did get his permission. It was and again, very last

00:44:50   minute, it was like they got a hold of him somehow. And we're like, Hey, can we can we would you sign

00:44:57   this thing that says we can use this song? And he's like, what serious? What? Still had no idea

00:45:01   what he was like, of course, here, whatever you need. And then to find out that they opened the

00:45:05   event with it, he had no idea. All he knew is that he'd given him permission to use it.

00:45:09   And it's because the song expressed what they wanted to say, which Steve wanted to say,

00:45:16   in a friendly, funny, this is all a big joke way. But the, the lyrics, if you don't want it,

00:45:26   don't buy it. It's almost like I almost feel like jobs. I wanted to say, you know what,

00:45:34   we actually had a thing to tell you about, but that song actually says it also. There you go.

00:45:38   Here's a free bumper. Anyway, but it was different, and it did nip it in the bud in a way.

00:45:46   But it does go to the so I think they dealt with it very effectively. I think it is a textbook

00:45:53   example that you could do not just a lecture on but an entire set of Yeah, it's like, it's like,

00:46:00   no, it's like bear or Tylenol or whoever. It was super. It's one of those levels. And obviously,

00:46:06   again, the stakes are completely different. I in no way want to equate people dying because people

00:46:11   were, you know, poisoning medicine with, you know, your attenuation on yeah, cyanide, yeah,

00:46:18   with attenuation on your phone. But you're completely right. Like this, if it's, I'm,

00:46:23   it now it's been a decade, I'm sure it's being taught in business schools. Like, I'd be shocked.

00:46:26   Trenton Larkin And PR schools too, you know, like totally how to do public relations. And

00:46:30   it actually would make a good back to back thing with the Tylenol. Where here's, here's high stakes

00:46:35   life and death, but only like 10 people and they actually, you know, they actually knew, which and

00:46:41   that's, that's sort of the a B scenario that makes it so different. So you've got a totally different

00:46:46   thing in the stakes where one was, there really were people who bought, you know, a handful of

00:46:52   people, but they really did buy containers of Tylenol that were laced with cyanide. So that's

00:46:57   a real life and death issue. Can't, stakes don't go any higher. And then you're, you know, yeah,

00:47:01   we're talking about iPhone attenuation. And it wasn't like your phone couldn't make phone calls,

00:47:06   you know, unless you lived on a somewhere where you had really sketchy service to begin with.

00:47:11   It's like, come on, right? It's not it. Not that totally. But it was, it was a big contrast in how

00:47:19   many people were affected. Tylenol knew exactly which vials had the cyanide. They really didn't.

00:47:24   They wasn't like they took it all off the shelves because they weren't sure. They knew exactly which

00:47:29   ones, you know, that the kook who did this had access to, you know, if you just look at all of,

00:47:35   it's not like a new thing. Even back in the 80s, they had numbers on the bottom of the thing that

00:47:40   told them which ones were packed on which day and stuff like that. But they just did that for the

00:47:44   public relations. Whereas the iPhone attenuation issue wasn't just a bad batch of 10 iPhones,

00:47:49   it was endemic to the design of the iPhone 4. Yeah, no, exactly. And, you know, but,

00:47:56   yeah, so it affected everyone. So they obviously couldn't do the thing. They're not going to recall

00:48:00   the phone. But coming up with a way to mitigate it and handle it. And yeah, I agree with you,

00:48:06   I think that it, it largely was successful. I mean, there were people who would still kind of

00:48:10   make the cracks and whatnot. But I interestingly, and the similar thing happened with Ben Gate,

00:48:15   which was much smaller, where what happened would be that people would test other phones,

00:48:20   which in some ways gives Apple like clearance, because then you're not alone, right? So it's

00:48:25   like, okay, this other phone has this issue too, just like this other phone, if you are purposefully

00:48:31   bending it, I'm rolling my eyes, and you know, is going to going to break. So that that's the

00:48:38   that's the I guess, was the good thing for them is that any long lasting damage because they handled

00:48:44   it so quickly. I think they had a lot of cover because everybody was testing every phone at that

00:48:48   point, not just iPhones. Yeah. Which brings us to my point, which is why why not pull a Steve Jobs

00:48:56   with the App Store stuff? Yeah, I agree. And I wonder if it part of it is that hubris thing you

00:49:03   talk about, they've been so successful. And they've kind of created this market that other people

00:49:09   have followed. I mean, they weren't the first digital market, but they with iTunes, definitely

00:49:15   the first substantial one. And, you know, their their commission model has been, you know, copied

00:49:20   by everyone. But they're the criticisms that have been lobbied against them by by developers been

00:49:27   happening for years. And it's just building and building and building. And I wonder if it's the

00:49:32   hubris of we've been so successful, and we continue to generate so much more revenue that blinds

00:49:37   people from seeing that. And then there's a really cynical part of me that also thinks revenue is now

00:49:43   the thing that is driving growth of the company or not revenue services are now the thing that

00:49:47   are driving growth of the company. So it's no longer phone sales, it was phone sales and hardware

00:49:51   sales for many, many, many, many years. That's no longer what's driving the company growth. The only

00:49:56   way the company continues to grow is if it is which is what Wall Street wants. Now, whether it

00:50:01   needs to grow or not, I think is a different question. But if the company is going to continue

00:50:05   to grow the way that Wall Street wants, their one real avenue is to increase services. And that's

00:50:11   why we've seen this tremendous, tremendous like, like push of services, whether it's putting, you

00:50:17   know, different like ads in your in the wallet app, and, you know, trying to encourage people to

00:50:22   upsell to either, you know, Apple Music, if you have Apple Music, buy a family plan. I'm like, I

00:50:28   don't have anybody else in a family account, like, why? Why are you showing me that, you know, to

00:50:34   Apple News Plus and whatnot, they are really, really doubling and tripling down on services.

00:50:40   So I think the cynical part of me is that the people who might be arguing that Apple go back

00:50:49   and kind of have the Steve Jobs moment and revisit things are being talked over by the people who are

00:50:56   like, okay, but if we do that, we potentially lose this much money, which we need to continue to show

00:51:03   growth. There's a lot to unpack there. That was absolutely excellent. I can't believe that it

00:51:08   came out extemporaneously that you could just like to transcribe that posted. I let's actually put it

00:51:18   but that's so good. And there's so much to unpack. Let's put a put a finger on it because we'll come

00:51:22   right back to it. And let me just take a break here and thank our next sponsor, good friends at

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00:53:42   10% on a whole year. Squarespace.com/talkshow. So yeah, let's unpack this bit by bit. So

00:53:51   one way to do it is, and what I'm saying, and so there's the app store angle and then there's the

00:54:02   services growth angle. And to me, that's one way of just forking this whole discussion

00:54:09   two ways. And yes, they do come together. They're not completely unrelated because

00:54:15   a lot of what people are complaining about and on the laundry list of things, some people want

00:54:21   to see changed at the app store is the issue of Apple's 30% commission and the rules over

00:54:27   which apps and for which reasons have to use the in-app purchases to go through commerce.

00:54:33   And Apple gets 30% of that and it's a lot of money and it all counts as quote unquote services. And

00:54:39   services is their narrative growth, their narrative to Wall Street of how the company's

00:54:44   growing. It's the division that we break out, we being Apple breakout that is growing. So I get it,

00:54:51   they're not unrelated, but I think we can kind of unpack them separately. So what's the list of

00:54:59   things some people would like to see changed at the app store? One of them is the 30/70 split

00:55:06   that turns to 85/15 for a subscription after a year. And some people would like to see Apple

00:55:13   charge less than 30% at least to start. Like for example, you could say, what if you started

00:55:20   85/15 and then subscriptions go to seven and a half percent after a year or something like that,

00:55:26   or just 85/15 and that's it. Just skip right to the 85/15 and keep it there. Just go to the one

00:55:33   year mark and do everything 85/15. There's that. There's the, you can't use other payment stuff.

00:55:42   You can't just say, well, I'm not using your in-app purchase. I'll just take the credit card

00:55:48   in my app to turn it from the free trial to the full version. Then there's the outside thing,

00:55:57   which I like to call the Netflix rule, right? So you download Netflix. Netflix is on your phone and

00:56:02   you launch it and it says, what's your email and password to sign into Netflix. And if you have one,

00:56:09   you sign it in and then you're using Netflix. And if you don't, you have to figure out on your own.

00:56:15   You have to go to Netflix, sign up, pay them there, then come back and do it. That's where the whole,

00:56:22   hey, email thing blew up because that's what the Basecamp company is doing with Basecamp and has

00:56:31   been doing for a while. Very successful product that's been around for years, but their iOS app

00:56:37   strategy is that they have an app that you download and you launch it and it says, what's

00:56:43   your Basecamp email and password. And if you don't have one, you kind of have to go figure it out,

00:56:48   but then they collect all the money on this side. They do it like Netflix. They assumed they could

00:56:53   do the same thing with, hey, their email app and service because there are in fact, that's because,

00:56:59   A, that's what they did with Basecamp. B, that's what apps like Netflix, et cetera, do. And C,

00:57:03   that's what other email apps even do, specifically email. And then they found out from Apple that,

00:57:10   no, if you want to be in the app store, you've got to have an option to sign up in the app,

00:57:17   which would give Apple the 70/30 split for the first year and then 85/15 thereafter.

00:57:22   What else? People want sideloading. They want you to be able to, what if you could

00:57:29   shoot your iPhone like a Mac where you can just, if you don't like the deal,

00:57:33   you could just go to hey.com and download their app and install it on your phone separately,

00:57:39   not going through the store. So sure, you can do whatever you want with your store,

00:57:43   but let us go outside the store and even have that off by default, like the Mac with all the,

00:57:49   what do they call it? Gatekeeper or whatever.

00:57:52   Gatekeeper. So on by default, only app store only, then you'd go into settings and say,

00:57:58   turn off Gatekeeper and let me, and then there'd be a warning that says something hopefully not

00:58:05   too alarmist, but act technically accurate description of the risks of turning it off,

00:58:09   turn it off. And now you can install apps from apps at the app store. People want them to allow

00:58:14   rival app stores, which I guess if you had sideload, well, no, maybe not actually that

00:58:20   would be separate. Yeah, it's a separate thing. They want an alternative distribution thing. So

00:58:25   they want like someone like Epic or Steam or someone like that to be able to have their own

00:58:30   rules and store or specific things. Right. But just the reason I had to correct myself there is

00:58:36   just allowing sideloading through Gatekeeper would not necessarily would not allow you might think

00:58:43   on your off the top of your head like I was thinking, even though I know better. Well,

00:58:47   if they allow you to install whatever you want, whatever you want might be a thing that's also an

00:58:53   app store. But that that the thing I was forgetting is that we even with Gatekeeper, you can be

00:58:59   sandboxed. And the idea would be even with sideloaded apps, they would still be sandboxed.

00:59:04   And the sandbox is a technical thing, not a voluntary thing. And you would have to sign your

00:59:10   app. You know, that's the thing where you would need to be signed, it still needs to go through

00:59:14   me no rise and Apple could revoke your developer certificate to disable the app, even if it's not

00:59:19   going through the app store, if it was found to be malware or otherwise harmful or dangerous,

00:59:24   etc, etc. So I think that's a basic list of the things. And you know, some of them are about money,

00:59:32   and some of them are not. But all of them, you might argue, at some degree would mean Apple's

00:59:38   making less money from third party apps. And so therefore, it's a non starter. And I think that's

00:59:43   foolish. I think it's, it might be true. But basically, my argument, it comes down to not

00:59:51   everything can have a dollar value. And and I think that it in, if you're looking at the world,

01:00:00   through Wall Street, Wall Street is sort of set up the whole idea of a stock price is to take the

01:00:07   entirety of a company and these the companies that we're talking about, you know, like your apples

01:00:13   and Microsoft's and Google's and even Facebook and these giant companies, it's very hard to encapsulate

01:00:19   them into a very neat package, let alone one number. But that's what the idea of a stock price

01:00:28   is that you take all of the complexity and the future, the entire future of a giant multinational

01:00:35   corporation, and you assign a dollar value to to it. And you say that's what the company's worth.

01:00:39   And that's what it would cost for you to buy a fractional share of the company. So what it is

01:00:45   now, if to me, I'm not saying the stock market should be abolished. I'm not saying it's a bad

01:00:50   idea. You know, it's it. That's not my argument. What I'm saying, though, is that that is one way

01:00:57   of looking at it, that might be necessary, it is necessary to have publicly held corporations.

01:01:03   But that doesn't actually encompass all of it. It's like saying that, you know, a movie is what

01:01:10   it makes at the box office. And therefore, the box office, the best, you know, whichever movies

01:01:15   make the most money or the best movies. Well, very few people would agree with that, even if

01:01:20   their favorite three movies happen to be the three movies that made the most, they'd still,

01:01:25   I think even those people would agree, well, that's, that's just, I happen to like blockbusters,

01:01:29   or I like these blockbusters. I'm not arguing that that's a measure of the value of movies.

01:01:34   I mean, I mean, some Marvel fanboys and some like Lord of the Ring fanboys would probably take that.

01:01:39   But I think in general, right. That's, that's not the case. But, yeah. So is, are there other things

01:01:48   that can't put a value that Apple can't put a value on, you know, financial dollar amount?

01:01:54   I would say that it is impossible to put a dollar amount on the regulatory headwinds they're

01:02:01   currently facing. Tim Cook is currently scheduled to testify next week before Congress.

01:02:07   It was originally scheduled for Monday. And that's not going to happen Monday because of the

01:02:11   ceremonies involving John Lewis, who died last week. He'll be resting in state. So I think,

01:02:19   I don't know if they officially announced this postponed. But I think all of that testimony is,

01:02:24   I don't know if it's postponed days a week or whatever, but it's coming, it is definitely

01:02:28   going to happen. And, and all of this, I mean, that that testimony isn't going to be the end of it.

01:02:35   No. Well, and it's not just the US, right? Like, I think to me, I would be much more

01:02:39   concerned about the European Commission, because of their history with, with what they do with

01:02:45   that. But yeah, sorry, go on. I just don't think that even if you might be able, you probably could

01:02:50   take some of those policies that I listed. And, you know, just say the easiest one to me

01:02:59   would be the let's just change 7030 to 8515 across the board, right? And there,

01:03:06   there the repercussions and what would happen afterwards are the easiest to measure.

01:03:11   Because you're not talking, I mean, and to me, like the most radical would be like,

01:03:15   what if we just said, we'll have third party app stores, and Google can have an app store,

01:03:20   and Facebook can have an iPhone app store, and Epic can have one where they sell games.

01:03:25   Like, obviously, that would change the platform in far more significant ways,

01:03:29   and financial ways for Apple. Let's just talk 8515. Right there, you really could mostly measure

01:03:36   this in money, it would be more money to developers without raising without changing the prices of

01:03:42   their products in this app store. Yep. You know, because 15 and 30 are different numbers, and it

01:03:50   would be less money for Apple. I thinking, you know, off the top right away. But maybe if it got

01:03:57   more developers to get into the store and do it this way, like what if I don't think they would

01:04:04   in particular, but let's just say that if Apple said it's 88515, maybe the Basecamp people would

01:04:11   say, hey, that's good enough for us, we will put in the app store and more apps would do it. So

01:04:17   you can't quite say that doing that would reduce Apple's money, right? And it, you know,

01:04:22   without devolving. Yeah, it's hard to say. And because I think I think the big thing there would

01:04:26   be would you be able to retain the services that are the number one apps are the number one

01:04:31   services like would you know, the Spotify is and the Netflix is, would they not remove the in app

01:04:39   purchase module? That that I think is the question would a 15% you know, split be worth it to them.

01:04:46   And in some cases it might be it depends on the margin of the business because you can make the

01:04:50   argument and I think it's a very good argument to say, okay, by being in the App Store and having

01:04:55   this mechanism you this is essentially a way to onboard new users who you might not otherwise be

01:05:02   able to get. I think that what Netflix in particular is so opposed to and they're not wrong

01:05:07   is that at this point, I don't know if anyone is going to learn about Netflix for the first time

01:05:15   by going to the App Store. So Netflix, understandably, in my opinion, is like the

01:05:20   App Store is doing nothing to bring me a net new customer. They already know about the service.

01:05:25   They are already going to be using this on other devices too, especially if they're using any sort

01:05:30   of TV device, which is where a tremendous amount of Netflix content is consumed. Apple TV has gone

01:05:36   from being a large share of what the premium services, the percentage of things watched to

01:05:41   a very small share. And so I think from Netflix's perspective, they're like, we're not getting new

01:05:47   customers from this, but for smaller video services, streaming services, and for other

01:05:53   subscription services that have to maybe adjust their rates because of the App Store percentage,

01:06:00   if it were cut down, there's a possibility that they might not take the hay approach and be like,

01:06:06   we're not going to leave, we'll stay because that 15%, even though that can be a lot,

01:06:11   compensates for what we're getting both in terms of billing and some of the support things and

01:06:17   currency, you know, negotiations and whatnot, as well as bringing us net new users who we wouldn't

01:06:24   be able to grab directly from our website or whatever sort of paid media we would have to do.

01:06:31   Right. So that's why I would say more than 85/15, even though it's gotten the most attention,

01:06:39   and I'll get back to this attention on that 70/30 split. To me, if you said to me,

01:06:45   John, we really, you know, we hear you on this App Store stuff, you've got five minutes with Tim Cook

01:06:53   to bend his ear on this and maybe change his mind. I would focus entirely on the idea of extending

01:07:01   what I call the Netflix rule to all developers. Yes. And I would just say on my, when my five

01:07:08   minutes is over and they're escorting me out the door and he's thanking me, and of course,

01:07:11   you know, poker face that Tim Cook has, giving nothing, right? Like, that to me is the difference

01:07:17   between like Steve Jobs and Tim Cook is that you could read Steve Jobs like a book, right? Like,

01:07:22   doesn't matter what he's saying. If he thinks you're a bozo, you're a bozo. Whereas Tim Cook,

01:07:27   you get nothing. Thank you, John. And as I'm leaving, I would just say, and by the way,

01:07:31   maybe think about 85/15 instead of 70/30. Right? But I would spend the whole time trying to

01:07:38   pitch him on just open the Netflix rule to everybody because as it's instituted right now,

01:07:43   with this quote unquote, they call them reader apps, which is ridiculous. But it speaks to the

01:07:49   fact Apple, again, it gets to the fact naming things is hard. And Apple is actually really

01:07:55   good at naming things in general, maybe not their products. Hey, look, I work at I work at a place

01:08:02   where naming is not what we're good at. So I think they're pretty good with naming honestly. Yeah.

01:08:07   But yeah, you know, they're pretty good at naming things. And when it comes to things like that,

01:08:12   they're usually pretty good and calling Netflix a reader app or Spotify a reader app, which is

01:08:17   fantastic. It's a fantastic one two combo. Because one of them you pretty much just listen to and the

01:08:23   other one you pretty much are watching shows. Yeah. You know, my theory on that is, my theory

01:08:30   on that is that it all started with with the with the Kindle. So that was the first time that they

01:08:34   started to enforce these rules. And this was in 2011. And Sony was hit first because Sony had

01:08:40   an e reader store that was only available in their app, you couldn't actually go to their website.

01:08:45   And so Sony was hit first, and Sony was banned. And I actually remember because I had a conversation

01:08:50   with Apple PR, and they explained that to me that because that the store exists only inside the

01:08:57   application. That's why Sony would need to pay 30% for all their ebook purchases. And what Sony wound

01:09:03   up doing because they didn't have the infra to create and set up like a full web store, is they

01:09:09   just ended the store. And that I think was one of the things that led to them exiting that part of

01:09:13   the e reader business. So for a while for another few weeks, Kindle was fine. Because you know,

01:09:20   the original Kindle app on an iPad and iPhone you could buy within like a web view on in the

01:09:26   application. Then that switched. And Kindle had to comply or get out. And even at first,

01:09:36   I think very briefly, they were allowed to have a link to the store. And then that was very quickly

01:09:41   turned down. And so the the way around that I think was that, you know, Amazon created like an

01:09:47   HTML five, like a version of the the Kindle store that was kind of optimized for iPad, and they

01:09:54   would have instructions where they'd show you how you could put it on your home screen and kind of

01:09:57   have to teach people how to do that process. It was it was difficult for them to be explicit about

01:10:03   it, but they were as explicit as they could be. And so my view is that the reason they call them

01:10:09   reader apps is because it started with that it extended to Netflix and Spotify. And that became

01:10:14   the much bigger thing. But I think because it started with the Kindle, because that was the

01:10:18   first one that was the first time that they ever started enforcing that kind of 30% on these

01:10:23   digital goods purchase from other you know, third parties that okay, Apple gets a cut to even even

01:10:29   though, you know, presumably, I don't even know how you would bring something like the Kindle store

01:10:36   to the iPhone, right? Like you'd have to upload every single item for an in app purchase. Like

01:10:41   there'd be no way to even do that. But they were just saying, Okay, if you want that, then we need

01:10:45   to get a cut. And I that's my theory is why they call it reader apps, even though it's completely

01:10:51   not accurate for what apps actually use that loophole now.

01:10:54   And you know, and they've made other exceptions. There are email apps that are in there using the

01:11:01   same sort of thing and a couple of there are although although I've heard from people because

01:11:06   there have been a number of apps that have gone through this. And I've heard from some very,

01:11:10   very large app developers that this has been like a over the last few months, an issue of negotiation.

01:11:17   And that it's been one of those things where even some of their updates have been delayed until they

01:11:22   can kind of work out how they remove fast mail or just their fast mail went on the record because

01:11:27   fast a great, great email provider fast mail. Yeah, I think they own the P o box now like p o box

01:11:34   calm, which has been a long standing independent email provider. Maybe not. I don't know. Maybe I

01:11:39   might be confusing. But I know fast mail does fast mail has a great service. It's pure imap. So you

01:11:44   can use it with Apple mail or Microsoft Outlook or Gmail or whatever, anything that speaks imap,

01:11:50   which is the lingua franca of email. And one of the problems with imap is that there are all

01:11:55   sorts of different imap implementations. Trust me, I know this. It's a long story. But imap is

01:12:00   not just imap that all over the map in terms of how it's standards compliant. But fast mails is

01:12:05   actually very great. They even have great push email service. So like you don't have to do

01:12:11   anything, you just put in your credentials. And Apple mail will give you push email so you don't

01:12:15   have to check frequently. It's great for your phone. But they also have a fast mail app that

01:12:21   I don't know what else it does and why you might use it. But because I don't use fast mail

01:12:25   personally, but they do. And people pointed to it because you download the fast mail app. And it just

01:12:29   says what's your email and password and there's no way to sign up. And fast mail publicly said on

01:12:34   Twitter because people it you know, we're saying hey, fast mail, you know, did you see this thing

01:12:37   with hey, and they're like, yes, Apple and very politely, you know, delicately in the way that

01:12:41   companies talk to each other, especially when there's a power imbalance. Yes. We're like,

01:12:46   yes, Apple has been in contact with us. And it's actually on our list for a future update to adopt

01:12:51   in app purchasing going forward. Yeah. So, okay, but I would just say, just just do it. Just give

01:12:57   everybody the Netflix option. Agreed. And, and make a very clear distinction that if you do

01:13:04   commerce for digital content, again, something like the way that you can buy real world stuff,

01:13:10   like you can go you can open the Amazon app and buy a six pack of soda and have it delivered to

01:13:15   your house. And it's not an in app purchase that Apple gets, they draw the distinction for digital

01:13:20   content. If it's an in app purchase for digital content, it and you do it in the app, you have to

01:13:26   use Apple's in app purchasing things, and pay Apple their cut, whatever their cut is, and that

01:13:33   changing that cut is a separate discussion. And if you don't want to use it, you have to do it

01:13:39   outside the app. And so no web view in the app, you have to go to a website and do it there. And

01:13:45   if you want to do it that way, you do it that way. And then say we think in app purchasing

01:13:51   is so much more convenient, so much more secure, and not secure in this spooky sense that like 20

01:13:58   years ago, people are like, No way am I putting my credit card on the internet. It's more like,

01:14:03   and it's sort of coincidence that I mentioned it, but like the way that if you sign up for a New

01:14:07   York Times subscription, I was just thinking this, right? Exactly. So I you sign up for a New York

01:14:11   Times subscription at New York times.com, and you want to unsubscribe, and you have to call them

01:14:17   on the telephone and spend 45 minutes with them talking you out of it before they let you do it.

01:14:22   It's like canceling AOL. It's Yeah, if you sign up for the New York Times in their app

01:14:28   through an in app purchase, and you would like to unsubscribe, you go to Settings, iCloud

01:14:33   subscriptions, and then just cancel your subscription. And at the end of the month,

01:14:38   you're unsubscribed, and they'll never get your dollar again, you know. So like, it is a tremendous

01:14:43   advantage to users that you can feel, you can know if you bought it through the app, you know,

01:14:49   it went through your iTunes account, and you know, that you are not going to get billed more than you

01:14:55   agreed to. And you know that if you would like to cancel a subscription, it is easy and obvious how

01:15:01   to do it. And you do it. It's easy, obvious, and it's exactly like canceling any other subscription.

01:15:06   Yeah, no, I'm in full agreement. I would, I would probably make the same plea because to me,

01:15:11   that is more important than I mean, I think that cut it to 15. I think that that is,

01:15:17   they could do one, they could do the other, they could do both. But to me, if they only do one,

01:15:22   I would just say extend that Netflix rule to everybody. Yeah, no, I would agree with that.

01:15:25   I would agree with that. I mean, I think that there are, and I, the reason I like that is that

01:15:29   part of the thing that concerns me with this move to services that I think has been kind of lost in

01:15:35   some of the discussion around these broader things has been that what's happened is that

01:15:41   the system has become gamified around, frankly, really shady and really gross practices by

01:15:49   like really scummy app developers who do really gross things to push people into paying

01:15:55   several hundred dollars a year for a basic utility app because of the way that they show,

01:15:59   you know, the, the, the subscription is like, oh, it's going to be, you know,

01:16:02   $9.99 a week not realizing, okay, I'm now paying $520 for this calculator. And, um,

01:16:10   those are the things that I are becoming incentivized right now as a way for people

01:16:15   to make money. And those apps, the more people point them out, aren't being taken down. Like,

01:16:20   I can buy the argument about why you need to have these rules to keep up the quality of the app

01:16:25   store. If the quality of the app store is actually in a good place, I would argue that it's not.

01:16:31   And so to me, it's, it's a, it's a bad faith argument to say, oh, well, we have to have,

01:16:35   the reason we can't allow customers to sign up for a service outside the app like they can with

01:16:41   Netflix is because it's a bad user experience. That's really disingenuous because there are so

01:16:47   many applications that have really terrible experiences that are much, much worse than

01:16:53   having to maybe go to a website or be confused and decide to delete the app. Like to me, that

01:16:58   is, is the wrong argument. And so I'm with you. If you could only pick one, I think extend the,

01:17:05   the Netflix rule to everyone. And honestly, I think that the vast majority of services and

01:17:12   developers who don't have, you know, a massive built in user base or have a massive ability to

01:17:19   bring people in and pay for on their own platforms would still find it very reasonable to at least

01:17:27   have the option to have people sign up, you know, maybe not be the only way people can sign up,

01:17:31   but, but at least have the option. Like, I do think that you would see the drop off on some of your

01:17:36   biggest services, but they already have different rules anyway.

01:17:41   Trenton Larkin Right. But even if you could put a dollar amount

01:17:43   on it and you, and you know, I'm sure internally somebody, you know, Tim Cook would commission

01:17:47   somebody inside the company to put a dollar amount on it. You can't put a dollar amount on the

01:17:54   regulatory weight that would be lifted off Apple's shoulders if they did that and just said, Hey,

01:18:00   you know, I keep saying, Hey, I think I say, Hey, all the time. Like, and a whole bunch of people

01:18:05   told me that when I did my live episode from WWDC that I should start the show by telling people,

01:18:10   you know, say the word, Hey. And it's like, I would probably do that anyway. I think every time

01:18:15   I start talking, I say, Hey, it's just sort of good word, not really a joke. It's actually just

01:18:22   how I started talking. But it's just so it confounds me though, because I keep talking

01:18:29   about Hey.com, the email, but they've even said that that's, that's their big thing. They don't

01:18:35   really, you know, it'd be nice if their 70/30 was split, but they just want to be able to sign

01:18:39   people up and they trust themselves to do it. And even exactly, even with the Apple has never said

01:18:45   this out loud, but it is obvious. And you see what they promote in the app store that they don't

01:18:53   promote apps that don't like to my knowledge, they've never had an app store story profiling

01:19:01   Netflix, you know, no, but they do have things about what you can watch on Netflix and shows you

01:19:07   can stream. And that's because you talked about power dynamic earlier and that were power been

01:19:12   balanced rather earlier. This is what's so interesting to me about this is that at a certain

01:19:17   point, you know, Netflix and Spotify and some of the other places, you know, Amazon video, whatnot,

01:19:22   Apple clearly was in the power position at a certain point. And I think this is why Netflix

01:19:29   gets special rules and can get special rules is that that power imbalance has shifted. I think

01:19:34   it's slight. I think that they're probably near equal, but at this point I pause it and I feel

01:19:39   pretty strongly about this. I've said this on Twitter and I feel very strong about this, that

01:19:42   Netflix now has more power than Apple does in that relationship because Apple needs Netflix on their

01:19:49   devices. You can't sell iPhones and iPads and say there is no Netflix. Exactly. Even more to the

01:19:55   point, you know, like Apple TV, like it's famously not part of the TV's app and it won't be. And yet

01:20:02   they still have to show these are things you can watch and, and integrate with it. And they, it has

01:20:07   serious support. Like they, yeah, at this point, Netflix has the dominant position there. And so

01:20:13   they can do that. Most companies aren't going to have that. And, but for those that do, or those

01:20:19   that want to take the base camper out and say, we can do this ourselves. I don't see the harm.

01:20:24   Cause again, I mean, my, my thought is that I, other than maybe some of the biggest players who

01:20:31   already have special agreements, like the bizarre Amazon agreement, um, where you can actually do

01:20:36   in-app purchase through your Amazon account for Amazon video, which is that's, you know,

01:20:41   completely bizarre. Uh, at this point, it's one of those things where I don't think that you would see

01:20:48   developers just fleeing the app store entirely. Some of them might, but I don't, I, but what it

01:20:54   would do to your point would be really reduced the, the, uh, you know, kind of the, the, uh, trade

01:21:01   winds coming from regulation. And to me, like you want to be real careful with the regulatory climate

01:21:08   because what the regulators could introduce would be things that I think would be both bad for Apple

01:21:14   and frankly bad for users like alternative app stores. I think alternative app stores is bad

01:21:19   for users. I think that alternative payment platforms is actually bad for users. And if you

01:21:25   don't want that, right. And that's the thing is you have to, and I know that there are, I'm

01:21:30   interrupting you only because I know that there are people listening who have the good, the points of

01:21:34   alternative payment that would be good and they want to raise their hand. But I think a full

01:21:39   listing of all the things that could happen that are bad and the reduction in trust of knowing that

01:21:43   if you're in the app, you can, you're doing it the Apple way through your iTunes account is an

01:21:49   overall negative. Sorry to interrupt. No, no, no, no. You're you're not, I, I agree. It is trade

01:21:55   offs. And look, I do understand why people would make those arguments. I don't disagree, I guess

01:22:00   like top level, but I think when you, when it comes down to it, the bottom line is that when

01:22:05   people use, we've been trained for 13 years, 12 years, I guess since there've been apps that if

01:22:09   you buy something, it's going through Apple. And if you switch that, so you feel secure. If you

01:22:14   switch that to, it could be going someplace else and you don't have that trust your relationship.

01:22:19   That's really negative. And that could be really devastating if the payment provider isn't

01:22:24   scrupulous or if something happens and someone's hacked, you know, and, and, or, or, you know, that

01:22:29   whoever the app service was using, you know, if the, if the, the payment processor was hacked or

01:22:33   if there was credentials leaked or whatever, or just just, uh, how about just making a

01:22:39   subscription hard to cancel? Yes. Agreed. Totally. Even if it's just makes it more difficult to

01:22:45   cancel your New York times subscription, that is a negative. And so, you know, to me, it would be

01:22:51   obviously be very bad for Apple, but it would be bad for users. And so, yeah, I I'm with you

01:22:55   because I feel like if you don't get ahead of this and make some concessions, you risk having

01:23:01   concessions forced on you. That could be so much worse for predictable, right? Regulators don't

01:23:09   really get it. They don't, I mean, they don't get it over the years and they don't get it and they

01:23:14   have bad ideas. I mean, honestly look at an ad to me, what makes it all the more confounding that

01:23:19   Apple doesn't seem more concerned about this is how badly the iBooks eBooks, uh, thing turned out,

01:23:29   which I guess is eight, seven, eight years ago, uh, Apple got robbed on that. In my opinion,

01:23:35   I really think it's, it's insane because the regulators only looked at it in terms of,

01:23:41   does it make prices to consumers go up? Yes. Therefore you're in the wrong and you've abused,

01:23:47   uh, uh, you know, anti-competitive antitrust. Uh, meanwhile, uh, Amazon's the one with the literal

01:23:55   monopoly on ebook sales. Like everybody knows, like whatever your ballpark back, your, whatever

01:24:00   your guesses on how Kindle sales compared to iBooks sales seven or eight years ago,

01:24:06   you're probably underestimating how much stronger Kindle was. And there were competitors like Barnes

01:24:10   and Noble with the Nook who for Apple iBooks was like a lark. Like, yeah, that's another thing we

01:24:16   can get into Barnes and Noble. It's an existential threat. And especially even then, like, I kind of

01:24:23   feel like, I don't know how well Barnes and Noble is doing. And I know that the coronavirus thing is

01:24:26   probably terrible, but I kind of feel like, not to go on too much of an aside, I kind of feel like

01:24:32   paper books are holding their own in a lot of ways. But seven or eight years ago, that was very

01:24:38   unclear. No, it was, it was very, yeah, there was, I used to write a ton about this and I used to talk

01:24:43   with publishers and with device makers about this. And there was this massive, massive fear in

01:24:48   publishing that it was going to go the way of the music industry or that it was going to, what did

01:24:54   happen, it's interesting, books have persisted and actually, if anything, they've started to outsell

01:24:59   in some categories. And it's very interesting that you see a lot of physical books sold. It's kind of

01:25:05   like vinyl, but at much bigger volumes. Whereas magazines were completely decimated, right? Like,

01:25:11   like print magazines, print newspapers have been completely decimated, but print books have not

01:25:16   been. But that wasn't the thought. The thought was, and that was why Barnes and Noble and Borders

01:25:21   before they went bankrupt, they had to deal with, with, with Kobo, who now Rakuten owns, you know,

01:25:27   like they were having to kind of get into this space. They were fighting for their life,

01:25:31   literally thought that we need to do this or we might just go out of business. Yeah, exactly.

01:25:35   And they had to disrupt ourselves. They gained nothing on Kindle. And yet Kindle was not the one,

01:25:40   Kindle and Amazon wasn't the one the regulators looked at. Well, not only that, but when the

01:25:46   settlement came out, you got Kindle credit. Do you remember this? Like I ended up getting,

01:25:52   because I buy a ton of eBooks, I ended up getting a ton of money back from Amazon. I got like $47

01:25:57   or something. And, um, I was like, which that to me was the, it was the insane thing. I was like,

01:26:03   you know, if you were somebody who didn't know anything about it and hadn't read any of the

01:26:07   briefs and you just heard, you know, ebook price fixing scandal, your first thought I think would

01:26:12   be, Oh, Amazon was involved in something and they were, you know, like, um, slapped down. No,

01:26:18   it was, it was Apple. And ironically, the deal that Apple was trying to make then was to be more

01:26:23   fair to the publishers, which is the complete opposite of the, the, you know, the 70 30 split.

01:26:28   Now with developers, they were actually trying to make things more fair and more even for publishers

01:26:34   and say, you can't undercut things and take a different margin. You have to set the same price

01:26:38   everywhere. That was actually, you know, a very pro publisher, pro book business move. And the,

01:26:46   you know, um, what was it? The FTC or whoever, um, or FCC, I'm not sure which, which who DOJ,

01:26:51   whatever, whatever government the DOJ, because the DOJ read that and said, no, you are price fixing

01:26:58   and are artificially pushing prices up. And what's happened ironically is that now Amazon is in this

01:27:06   place where, you know, cause they used to undercut the eBooks all the time. Like that was a very

01:27:09   common tactic and that was how they sold them at a loss where the publisher would say, here's,

01:27:14   here's a new Stephen King novel, right? Or you know, here's, here's the new book from insert

01:27:18   big, big name author. Who's going to sell a ton of books. It's brand new, you know, it's 9 99.

01:27:23   But the publisher would say it's 17 99. Oh, exactly. That's what I mean. But, but,

01:27:27   but Amazon would sell it for 9 99 and just eat the price. Right. And what's happened though,

01:27:32   is that now you do still have some of that, but most of the big houses and also publishing has,

01:27:38   even though they've made like print books have, have survived publishing itself is like most forms

01:27:43   of written media is, is a shit show. Um, they've all consolidated even more. And most of those

01:27:48   publishers have arrangements like Hatch and Simon and Schuster and others where they set the price

01:27:53   and Amazon can't undercut them. So ironically, the whole thing that the DOJ is like, you know,

01:28:00   like rule has come to pass anyway. Amazon and, uh, you know, um, uh, Rakuten and, uh, who owns,

01:28:07   uh, uh, um, you know, um, uh, uh, Kobo and, and, and I books don't have the ability to adjust prices

01:28:15   for a lot of the best sellers. Right. But I book, uh, uh, kindles, Apple, Amazon strategy with

01:28:20   Kindle was, I'm not going to say nefarious, but it was, it was a loss leader. And their idea was,

01:28:25   we'll sell them all for nine 99 cause that's a great price. And even if it's a loss, we'll eat

01:28:31   it, we'll dominate the market. And then when, you know, then we'll be the only one selling,

01:28:36   you know, we, we would like to build a monopoly on eBooks and then we could change prices later.

01:28:40   And then we can change prices. And not only that, they then started to become publishers.

01:28:44   They don't even hide that fact. But the whole problem is that the, and again,

01:28:48   I don't want to get too sidelined on this, but the whole problem is that all of these antitrust

01:28:52   laws in the U S and in Europe and around the world, we're all based on the idea that the abuse

01:28:59   of a monopoly would be to artificially increase prices. Right. Which makes intuitive sense and

01:29:05   also makes historical sense, right? That once, uh, like Rockefeller or whoever it was who owned

01:29:11   the whole railroad from coast to coast and could control all of the steel going from steel foundries

01:29:19   in Pittsburgh to the West coast, where they were building San Francisco and you know, the,

01:29:23   you know, the modern West coast world, uh, that the person selling the steel also owned the

01:29:28   railroad and it was the only way to get it there and could set the price for his competitors to

01:29:33   whatever he wanted to while his own steel wasn't being charged at all, et cetera, is all about

01:29:38   raising prices artificially. And yeah, we need government regulation to keep it down.

01:29:43   None of the laws anticipated, well, what if there's a publicly held company that the shareholders

01:29:49   buy into the argument that all we're looking for is ever increasing revenue and no profits at all,

01:29:55   just break, don't need that. Exactly. Just build market share and dominate and then, you know,

01:30:01   good things will happen in the future. Yeah. What if you could be Walmart, but you didn't have to

01:30:06   turn a profit. Right. And you know, none, none of the regular, none of the laws were built with

01:30:11   that in mind. And then the thing with the eBooks case with Apple was that the regulators themselves

01:30:16   don't have it in mind. It was all, it never went further than, well, wait,

01:30:23   Amazon wants to sell these books for 9 99. If w you know, Apple's deal with the publishers meant

01:30:29   that the books would cost whatever the publishers say, which was often more than 9 99. Therefore,

01:30:33   that's price fixing and higher prices of consumers you lose. And that was it. And you're out. And it

01:30:38   was like that, that casino hearing in the movie casino, where they never even gave Robert De Niro's

01:30:45   character a chance. And they're like, Nope, your license is out. And that's it. Case closed. It's

01:30:50   over. So why in the world would Apple trust the regulatory process on this to come to a sensible

01:30:55   conclusion? Like, if you're thinking, well, I don't blame Apple for taking their chances on this,

01:31:00   because if the worst case, if they lose, the regulators will just impose very fair rules on

01:31:07   Apple. And Apple can certainly live with those. You don't know that that's what they're going to

01:31:11   impose at all. It is an incredible gamble, right? So in addition to not being able to put a price on

01:31:17   it, there's also the idea of like, how do you know, how do you value risk avoidance? You know,

01:31:23   the risk avoidance of this is like, what happens if there's a major earthquake? What happens? Let's

01:31:29   just say, theoretically, Christina, what if there's a pandemic? Who knows, right? You can't value that,

01:31:38   right? You don't know how. Nobody knew or knows going forward what the cost of this pandemic is

01:31:45   going to cost. You have no idea what regulatory rules imposed upon the App Store could do. So why

01:31:55   not do what you can to sidestep it now and just tell the shareholders, look, this is, you know,

01:32:01   I don't know, sharp services are still growing. They will grow. We have great faith in it, but we

01:32:07   we're more proud of selling our own services. We are so sure about Apple Arcade and Apple TV Plus

01:32:14   and Apple News. And the longest standing of our ongoing subscription service is iCloud, which we

01:32:21   still think, you know, we have 98% of or whatever they want to say the number is of people who are

01:32:26   into it and just say we want to sell our own services. And we're so confident that our App

01:32:31   Store is such a great deal for third party developers that we'll let you sidestep it if

01:32:36   you want because we think you'll make more by being in the store and doing it in app. There you

01:32:40   go. I that's what I would I would sell Tim Cook on. The other thing I would like to see them do

01:32:46   is, in addition to that, at least let develop let everybody do the Netflix thing and

01:32:52   expand the Netflix rule to at least let apps tell you what to do. Yeah, let when you download

01:33:01   Netflix and you say I've, I've, you know, I've heard about this Netflix thing. I can't believe

01:33:06   it's 2020. I don't have it yet. But I want to get it. Right. I don't know who you are.

01:33:10   You don't have Netflix yet. But if they must be out there, but you have an iPhone, right?

01:33:16   Um, you know, and maybe it is an older audience, you know, you know, maybe my mom, I don't think

01:33:21   my mom has Netflix, she does have an iPhone. So maybe she decides she's going to sign up for

01:33:25   Netflix. At least tell her what to do. I mean, it should just say call John. Yeah, that's true.

01:33:32   Contact, contact your son, but he'll walk you through it. Part of the Netflix rule as it stands,

01:33:39   even with all the problems with the weird exceptions and who counts as a reader app,

01:33:44   even though some of them clearly aren't readers at all. Part of it is that they're they keep

01:33:48   talking like and and again, it's very strange for Apple, it would be very strange for Apple not

01:33:53   to to acknowledge that yes, this part of our business is not friendly to our customers at all.

01:34:01   It is counter counter, you know, it is what's the opposite of friendly it is in. It's a bad

01:34:07   experience for customers. It would Yeah, it's hard to imagine Apple saying that. But yet the idea

01:34:13   that you're allowed to, you know, download Netflix, you Netflix is allowed not to have in app purchases.

01:34:21   But Netflix can't tell you that what to do is go to Netflix.com and sign up there that they're not

01:34:28   allowed to say that, let alone making it a link that you can tap. I'm not even saying that, right?

01:34:34   Because I kind of get here's the thing with the tap. I kind of understand the lack of the click.

01:34:39   I'm with you on that because tell people something. Well, it's for people listening to this show,

01:34:44   I'm sure that a majority of them are going to think I've lost I'm off my rocker here and disagree.

01:34:49   But I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of the type of user who is confused about what's a

01:34:57   browser and what's an app, right. And if you just tap it, and it jumps you over to Safari,

01:35:03   but starting in the fall could be a different browser because iOS 14 is going to support third

01:35:09   party browsers, but it'll go to your default browser. Let's assume that it's Safari because

01:35:14   anybody who will know starting in the fall, how to change their default browser or what a default

01:35:19   browser is, isn't as confused about what's in a browser and what's in an app. So you're jump over

01:35:25   to Safari. But, you know, how do you know? I mean, do does everybody know that you've left the app

01:35:31   and now you're in Safari? Whereas if the instructions don't even let you tap it, although

01:35:36   I wouldn't be opposed if they said you can even make it a link. I wouldn't be opposed.

01:35:39   No, I wouldn't be opposed either. But I can see why they don't. But just let them go to Netflix,

01:35:45   hit the big sign up button in the top right corner and sign up there, then come back and sign into

01:35:50   this app using the email and password you created at our at our website 1234. See you when you sign

01:35:57   back, come back to the app. Let them do that. Let them say go to hey.com and sign up there,

01:36:04   then come back and sign into this app. Just say this, let them say it. Because the way it is now

01:36:09   where you can't even say that is insane in terms of how confusing it is. Right. And it's, you know,

01:36:16   it it's how can you possibly argue that that benefits anyone other than Apple?

01:36:22   Exactly, exactly. And I think I mean, like, right. And it doesn't. I think when you put those

01:36:27   like such strict rules, like, I'm actually more open to the idea of not having a link,

01:36:32   not just for the reasons you mentioned, but I'll be honest, I think that that is maybe Apple giving

01:36:38   up too much of its business to someone else. I don't think they necessarily need to have a link

01:36:42   there. I don't think that that is necessarily something a company needs to do to basically say

01:36:46   we are going to give a direct like vector for someone to like purposefully avoid our our payment

01:36:53   system. Right. Like, I don't think they need to do that. Like from a business perspective, I don't

01:36:57   think that that needs to happen. But you make a good point to it's also just a bad user experience

01:37:02   when the user is in a situation where the read it because it's not as if the developers don't want

01:37:07   to tell them how to sign up is that they can't right. And therefore, anybody who is vaguely

01:37:13   confused about what happens when you tap it says netflix.com slash sign up and you tap it. And then

01:37:21   you lift your finger and next thing you know, you're at a sign up form. Right? Are you still

01:37:26   in the app? Have you jumped to your browser? I'm not going to be confused by that you're not going

01:37:31   to be confused by that. I would venture to say just about every single one of the thousands of

01:37:36   people listening to me and you talk about this are not going to be confused by that. But out of

01:37:40   Harris might parents might be there's all sorts of people who might be just make it instructions,

01:37:46   make it clear. I think, you know, if you're getting to the point where if you're just following the

01:37:51   instructions and have to go to the website to sign up, and you still aren't sure you're in the app,

01:37:55   well, then you're a lost cause. That's exactly that's a bigger problem. No, I think I think

01:37:59   exactly and I think also like it would be good for Apple in some ways, again, not to have the link

01:38:04   because that could cause confusion but to have the instructions because Apple doesn't want people to

01:38:09   think that they have a one to one relationship with these services if they don't, you know,

01:38:14   so to your point, if you need to unsubscribe, like make it very clear, I didn't sign up in the app,

01:38:20   you know, like, because otherwise, even for people who might think that they're savvy, I could see

01:38:25   that the confusion well, I remember signing up on my phone, like I remember opening the app and

01:38:30   signing up. So of course, it's in my subscriptions, because that's how it's worked. If that's going to

01:38:34   change, yeah, you don't necessarily need to have the link, but have the instructions to be very

01:38:39   simple. This is what you do. And, and go from there. And I genuinely think that the number of

01:38:47   people who would completely askew using the App Store at all, is relatively small. So when they

01:38:54   whereas having that option would buy both goodwill with developers, which I think is an important

01:39:01   thing, but also the incalculable thing to your point is, okay, this could help get the get the

01:39:07   feds off off our back. And Apple does this all the time. And this argument that well, I see it come

01:39:13   up all the time. And again, I I'm not going to say that we've been collectively brainwashed. That's a

01:39:19   strong word. And there are people who are apparently brainwashed at the moment on other

01:39:24   issues. But there is this widespread belief that publicly held corporations are beholden to

01:39:30   shareholders to quote unquote, maximize profits at all costs. And I see people who are even amenable

01:39:37   to this and who are like, Yeah, I wish Apple could do this. But you know, they have to do what's best

01:39:42   for shareholders. And so they, you know, they've, they've got to do this, you know, they got to

01:39:47   squeeze every penny they can out of the App Store. That's not true at all. It is absolutely not true.

01:39:53   I mean, there's the the responsibility that the board has to shareholders and that the CEO has to

01:39:59   the board is to do right by the shareholders and to run the company in a legal way in a responsible

01:40:05   way. And, you know, but you don't you're not there's no legal obligation. It doesn't even make

01:40:11   any sense. If you really think about it, it makes no sense. No, the fiduciary responsibility is about

01:40:17   making sure that you're not hiding money or doing things unethically with the with your profits or

01:40:23   with your salaries that you're reporting things the right way. And that shareholders are aware of how

01:40:27   money is being spent and how it comes in. It has nothing to do with, oh, because we're public,

01:40:33   the shareholders are beholden to us squeezing every cent we can out of everything. Because

01:40:38   companies make decisions all the time. If that were the case, then you could say, well, why does

01:40:43   Apple spend so much on its components and on its machining and on, you know, the things that make

01:40:50   their products higher quality? Because obviously that reduces margins. They could be making so

01:40:54   much more money if they use these cheaper components. That would benefit the shareholders.

01:40:59   No one makes that argument. It's understood that, you know, you can make the choice to

01:41:04   invest in what you want to invest in. And you could that I think goes into your business models.

01:41:09   You can choose to say, this is the right thing for our business, which ultimately is being responsible

01:41:15   for the shareholders. If, you know, it's this is the right thing for business, not this is

01:41:20   how we can squeeze every penny and be Scrooge McDuck.

01:41:23   Right. It's, you know, and it's it just is not there. It's, you know, and Tim Cook has even

01:41:28   said this at some point, you know, where he was like a shareholders meeting years ago, and

01:41:33   the closest I've ever heard him just swear and in public, it was like somebody was talking about,

01:41:39   like accessibility as a cost or something. And Tim Cook got angry and was like, I don't care about

01:41:44   the bloody ROI, you know, and, you know, Tim Cook, I pretty sure is not British. Let me look.

01:41:51   No, I don't think so. He's from Alabama.

01:41:53   Yeah, but is Alabama in Great Britain? No, it turns out Alabama is in the US South. So no,

01:41:58   he's not British. So bloody, it was not part of his natural vocabulary. But I, you know,

01:42:05   you can imagine what other words he might have wanted to substitute there. Yeah, it's not always

01:42:10   about the ROI. It's about the whole thing. And Apple is Apple a well run company that is making

01:42:15   profits, you know, and even if they do make a strategic change that significantly decreases

01:42:22   the profits they draw from the App Store in and of itself from third party developers,

01:42:26   that is totally in line with Apple's strategic value. And they can totally make a very strong

01:42:31   case that it's actually in shareholders interest in the long run, that this is a better idea. It's

01:42:37   better to be competitive. We believe in competition. We think it's better for our

01:42:43   developer partners, we want them to be happy. It's better for the ecosystem. It's better for us in a

01:42:47   regulatory landscape. It's all good for us, even if it means less money in the short run from what

01:42:54   we draw from third party applications. That's it. Same way that I think that Apple could,

01:43:00   and probably should, and again, it's a side thing, but I think that they could and probably should

01:43:05   get out of the casino business of participating and allowing the sort of pay to win games like

01:43:12   Candy Crush that are built around the concept of whales who get hooked on the game and spend

01:43:22   exorbitant amounts of money, in my opinion, hundreds of dollars, perhaps a month,

01:43:27   and have Apple taking 30% of that money. I always say there's a reason why the Disney cruise ships

01:43:34   don't have casinos. The reason all the other cruises have casinos is because there's no laws

01:43:41   regulating having a casino and casinos are profitable and people like to gamble. I like to

01:43:46   gamble. If I were on a Disney cruise and they had a casino, I would love it. I think Disney could

01:43:52   make an amazing casino. I would like to see a Disney casino. I would actually, I was going to

01:43:56   say I don't usually like cruise ship casinos. You'd go to the Disney one. I would love a Disney one.

01:44:00   The Disney one would be great. People would be paying money just to have the decks of cards.

01:44:05   Oh my God. I mean, people would, or to keep the chips, right? Oh my God.

01:44:09   They could make the chips collectible the same way that they do like the little Mickey Mouses.

01:44:15   But Disney doesn't do it because they don't want to be involved with gambling. And again,

01:44:23   I say this as someone who loves to gamble, but I also totally see why Disney doesn't want their

01:44:28   brand associated with it. I don't see how Apple's dalliance with the candy crushes of the world

01:44:36   isn't effectively having an Apple casino in Las Vegas, which I don't think they would do. Again,

01:44:43   they make a lot of money, I think, from the candy crush type games by drawing 30% of that money.

01:44:49   A lot of it is coming from people who are, for lack of a better word, addicted in an unhealthy way

01:44:57   to these games. And for Apple to be taking 30% of that is, in my opinion, morally wrong.

01:45:05   And I think it's actually in Apple's... I'm not preaching to them that they should walk away from

01:45:11   this money for no reason other than the ethics. I actually think, though, that there's brand value

01:45:16   in not being associated with that, and that that brand value outweighs whatever the dollar value is

01:45:22   of the money that they're getting from it. Yeah, it's interesting that there's not a moral,

01:45:27   I guess, aversion to that model, whereas there is if you want to have adult content, or other types

01:45:35   of content, which there are rules about them that Apple has made a very clear stance. Steve Jobs

01:45:39   was very clear at the beginning, he didn't want Playboy in the App Store. He didn't want that

01:45:43   stuff in the App Store. And that is a decision. There was nothing legally that would mandate that

01:45:47   from not being allowed. That would maybe complicate some things, depending on what

01:45:52   content they sold on their payment processor, but also Apple's big enough that they think they'd be

01:45:56   fine. That was a judgment case. And so it's interesting just where you draw the line.

01:46:02   I don't disagree with what you're saying. Again, I'm very cynical in the sense that I think that

01:46:10   the amount of money they get from those types of games has to be so massive that that would be a

01:46:16   very difficult thing. Yeah, but why not, though? But isn't that the Steve Jobs thing that maybe

01:46:21   it's difficult? Isn't it difficult to just say, "Okay, yeah, there's an antenna problem. Here it

01:46:25   is." No, no, you're completely correct. Let's rip the band-aid off. The one thing that's harder,

01:46:30   I think, is that in this case, you have a history of how much money you know that you're losing.

01:46:38   So it's a much bigger risk. What a tremendous benefit it is to be a part of a lucrative business

01:46:44   like this and have it be a fraction of your income and without question will always be a fraction of

01:46:51   their income. Services is never going to outweigh this device sales. It shouldn't and never will.

01:46:58   They don't need it. So why not have the liberty of doing it? And why take the risk? Here's the risk.

01:47:07   What if—this would be my message to Tim Cook in advance of this testimony—why not be the one to

01:47:18   do it and say, "Look, we're going to open this up and let you use the Netflix rule, and we're going

01:47:24   to go $85.15. We're going to do it and let other people follow." Because what if Sundar Pichai gets

01:47:31   up there and says, "Hey, we're just going to go $85.15," or "We're going to go $90.10," and then

01:47:38   all of a sudden you look like the jerk who's coming in after Sundar Pichai and you're there.

01:47:43   Right. And you're there defending it.

01:47:47   Everything you've prepared is, "Hey, we're $70.30, but so is everybody else," and you're coming in

01:47:53   after somebody who just took the carpet out from under your feet. Why not be the one to do it? Act

01:47:59   first and look like the leader. So an interesting model is one that exists in the Microsoft store,

01:48:06   which I was not aware about until recently when a developer told me. And apparently,

01:48:10   there is still, I guess, whatever the standard split is, if you discover and buy the app directly

01:48:16   on your own in the store. But if you get to the store from a link that the developer has put on

01:48:22   their own website or their own advertisements or whatever, then there's no commission. There's no

01:48:27   cut. Oh, that's interesting. That's a good rule. I like that too.

01:48:31   Yeah. And I think that's an interesting way around some of that. It's like, "Okay, if you can bring

01:48:36   the audience, then you get all the money. The payment and everything is still going to be

01:48:41   handled by us, and we're still going to be making the rules over other stuff. But if the audience

01:48:48   comes to this through us, then we get the commission." Yeah. And that's not a bad idea.

01:48:57   Certainly seems fair. And again, I know that the people who defend Apple and the App Store's

01:49:02   current policy exactly as is the most are almost to a T. I mean, there's always an exception,

01:49:08   but they're not developers. They are users. And there's an intuitive sense that they're...

01:49:13   It's not like Apple's basic argument is outlandish. There's an intuitive sense to it,

01:49:19   and they buy it, which is that, "Hey, Apple is doing all this great work to make the App Store

01:49:24   and new versions of the OS, new APIs every year, and they promote apps within the App Store,

01:49:30   and it's a great distribution channel." So they deserve some amount of money. And if you want

01:49:35   to argue about whether it should be 70/30 or something else, sure, but they certainly deserve

01:49:40   it. And anybody who's trying to cut around it is looking for a free ride, right? And Apple said

01:49:46   this, and there's a lot of people who buy into it. And in some sense, it is true that they are looking

01:49:51   not to pay anything like with the Netflix rule, but to call it a free ride is something else.

01:49:56   And the promotional aspect, sure. Okay. And Jason Fried and David Hennemeyer Henson have said it

01:50:01   with, "Hey, okay, fine. If you guys don't want to promote us in the App Store ever, fine." We're

01:50:07   very confident in our abilities to promote the app. We know how many people are signing up for

01:50:12   it, and we're on our wait list. We're fine with our own ability. Just let us have the app in the

01:50:16   store. So if somebody goes in and searches for, "Hey, email," there it is. They can download it, and

01:50:22   there it is. You don't have to promote us at all. Just let us be in the store. We'll handle everything

01:50:26   else and handle all of our own promotion. That's fine. Did you see this thing before we move on?

01:50:32   Apple had a commission to study this week from a group called the Ant Analysis Group, which, again,

01:50:41   I made this joke on dithering, but I haven't made it again. It sounds to me like Analysis Group,

01:50:46   as the name of your company, reminds me so much of the company James Bond works for, which is

01:50:53   Universal Exports. Right. No, totally. Well, it was interesting. And then reading through this

01:50:59   report with this whole thing is like, this looks just like any McKinsey report ever. And it's so

01:51:05   hard to imagine Steve Jobs sitting through this report. It's not poorly written, but yeah, it just

01:51:13   seems like, "Oh my God, this is like generic corporate Fortune 500 America." Yeah, no, this

01:51:19   is straight out of McKinsey and some of the other big consulting firm playbook. It's well formatted,

01:51:27   it's well written, but it's totally that. I love what you said during Fireball about how if you

01:51:33   have to compare yourself to Ticketmaster, like we're not as bad as Ticketmaster, then you're

01:51:38   into losing argument. Oh, right. And I agree. I'm like, okay. And if you look at their table four,

01:51:44   the thing is like on page nine, if anybody wants to look at this report, where they're showing the

01:51:49   different percentage of these things, the only services that have more than what Apple's

01:51:57   commission is are ticket resale and potentially food delivery. And even then, it's close. So it's

01:52:05   like, okay, we all know how lecherous, and there's been so much discussion right now about the very,

01:52:11   very predatory nature of these food delivery services and how they're effectively helping

01:52:16   put restaurants out of business. So it's like, okay, you're going to compare yourself to Uber

01:52:22   Eats or Ticketmaster. Who've been in the news for like scamming restaurants and being so foolish and

01:52:28   fueled by VC money that they will let themselves get into an arbitrage situation where they

01:52:35   miss scraped the company's menu and are willing... And then forward to a different phone number that

01:52:41   they control. Right. And are willing to pay $20 for a $9 pizza and stuff like that. Anyway,

01:52:48   here, let me read CNBC's summary of the report, in my opinion, is outstanding, cannot be beaten,

01:52:55   and therefore, you tell me if you agree that this is an apt and complete summary of the entire

01:53:01   report. The Appleback study has four major findings. Most app stores charge the same 30%

01:53:06   on digital goods. Point two, retailers, travel booking services, and other marketplaces can

01:53:14   charge more than 30 for their services. Three, distributing software through an app store is

01:53:20   less expensive than distributing through brick and mortar retailers. And then point four,

01:53:25   other app stores and digital marketplaces often require users to use their in-app purchase

01:53:30   mechanism and forbid sellers from redirecting buyers to finish the transaction in another venue.

01:53:35   So 30%, everybody does it. Two, some companies outside of app stores charge even more than 30.

01:53:45   Three, brick and mortar was worse. Four, the other app stores make you use the app store too.

01:53:51   That's one, two, three, four. That's the whole report. And so...

01:53:53   Yeah, that's it. It saved you 50 pages.

01:53:55   Apple's participation and commission of this report and their help promoting it into the

01:53:59   news media suggests very strongly to me that this is a preview of Tim Cook's defense and testimony

01:54:06   before the regulatory people next week. We don't know, but it certainly would seem so because

01:54:12   if Apple wasn't thinking of this as the blueprint for their defense, why would they release it?

01:54:19   They commissioned it, but then if they didn't like it, they could just say, "Ah, we don't like this.

01:54:23   Here's your money. We're going to bury the report." Point three, everybody is pointing out. Nobody,

01:54:30   even people who are generally like, "Yeah, I'm with Apple on this. I think Apple's in the right."

01:54:35   Even those people are like, "Brick and mortar? What? What the hell are you talking about?"

01:54:40   It's like all of a sudden, if Apple was a car maker and they're going before Congress to

01:54:46   testify about the industry moving to electric vehicles and they issue a report talking about

01:54:53   what a pain in the ass it was back in the day when you had to use a crank to start your car.

01:54:58   What the hell are you talking about?

01:55:01   No, exactly. To me, it also ignores a bunch of other things. There was an argument that

01:55:07   some people were making during the Hay fiasco last month about how, "Okay, well, back in the day when

01:55:14   you had to sell box software in stores, it was a much worse experience." I don't doubt that. I'm

01:55:21   not in any way trying to claim that the margins there were different and that was bad. But, okay,

01:55:26   I can't remember the last... I think the last time I bought a box piece of software was probably

01:55:32   I don't know, like 1996.

01:55:34   How would you explain to somebody the idea? How would you even get box software onto a phone?

01:55:41   Exactly. Well, that's the thing too. I'm like, "Okay, I've been downloading and paying for

01:55:46   mobile software." Okay, I do remember in the Palm days that you could buy box software and you would

01:55:54   install it on your computer and then you'd have to transfer it to your Palm. So I do remember that.

01:55:59   But that was a very brief window. I mean, I think that from like basically 2005-ish,

01:56:03   it's been digital distribution on mobile.

01:56:07   Tech as an industry, and I'm generally loathe to just group all tech companies together.

01:56:12   But, if anything, my whole career is about parsing out the differences between tech companies. And

01:56:20   there's a lot of nuances, but whatever. But tech as a whole, and those of us who are enthusiasts

01:56:25   as a whole, we take it as a... My entire career is based on the idea that tech moves fast. It is fast

01:56:32   and it's exciting. And so it's fun and exciting to follow and it's changing our lives, not between

01:56:38   generations, but within our own life. I mean, just in the course of this show, we've talked about how

01:56:43   different the world is from 20 years ago or 30 years ago.

01:56:46   No, totally. I mean, exactly. And yeah, it moves fast. I mean, okay. And actually,

01:56:50   I will make a correction. I bought games. That's probably the one thing that I've continued to buy

01:56:56   physical copies of. Not anymore, but probably well into the 2000s. But anything else, I mean,

01:57:01   even at this point, like, okay, computers don't have CDs on them. This era is over.

01:57:06   It is all digital distribution to the point that the places that sell video games,

01:57:12   like physical video games, are at the risk of going out of business. So making the retail

01:57:19   comparison, especially in a medium that has never existed, like the iPod was always digital only.

01:57:25   There was never a way where you were buying a physical MP3. That would be a stupid idea.

01:57:30   Right. But you could buy a CD, put it in your computer and have iTunes

01:57:33   zap it over to your phone. And it was a fantastic experience.

01:57:37   It was a great experience. But if you wanted to actually buy from the, but it was a great

01:57:41   experience. But the big appeal and the big breakthrough of the iTunes store in 2003

01:57:46   was that I didn't have to do that. Right. And that you could just buy a single,

01:57:49   right? Which was just by one track that was massive, right? Like that was like bringing

01:57:54   what everybody had always kind of went to Napster for, right? Like was I can just do that. And I can

01:57:59   I can do it digitally. I don't have to have the physical copy. So yeah, I think that making that

01:58:05   comparison, it's like, well, yes, retail has much different margins and it's a completely different

01:58:10   thing. Like it's, to me, it also seems disingenuous when the issues at play are not about how Apple

01:58:18   collects a commission on physical goods from retailers because they don't. It's all about

01:58:22   digital distribution. So why are you bringing retail into this? Right. And it completely

01:58:27   skips over. And if there's one regret I have from my live talk show with Federighi and Jaws is that

01:58:34   I didn't push back on Jaws on this point. It just didn't pop into my head, unfortunately, because

01:58:39   I'm a very slow thinker. But my one regret is not pushing back on his response on this, which is

01:58:45   along the same lines, which is that it presupposes that the transition from software being sold in

01:58:52   boxes and other physical disks to the App Store doesn't have an intermediary step, which is that

01:59:00   software could just be distributed digitally over the web without the App Stores, which Apple

01:59:06   thrived the entire early era of Mac OS X was entirely predicated on that. And that there are

01:59:11   entire in the indie Mac movement. I think the reason that people like like me like became

01:59:17   massive Mac fans was based on that I wasn't going to the few retail stores that existed like Apple

01:59:23   retail stores and buying box software. I was finding apps online and downloading them and

01:59:28   then paying for them. And it still is true today. It's not even like that was, you know, like retail

01:59:35   software bygone era. The Mac App Store famously is nowhere near as successful as the iOS App Store.

01:59:43   And it's, you know, an awful lot of great Mac software still is sold outside the App Store.

01:59:50   And those companies are, you know, making money and there is it's a feasible business. I mean,

01:59:57   I can't just sit here and even list this amount of software in my dock right now that I bought

02:00:02   that way. Yeah, I mean, if anything, I think that there is like a knowledge because at least for

02:00:06   those of us who are plugged in, we know what the cut can do. So at least for me, I go out of my way

02:00:13   to buy the non App Store version, because a I usually don't want some of the sandbox restrictions

02:00:18   if those exist. And B, I want to like directly support the developer, you know, like, which,

02:00:25   which I realized, you know, that it's different on mobile. And I'm not even I'm not even necessarily

02:00:31   like a proponent of having a sideloading ability. I think that's interesting, but I'm not even

02:00:37   necessarily a proponent. I'm not either. I think I'm very much desktop, right? I mean, desktop,

02:00:42   I am for sure. That's my my basic my stance is that the Mac is the Mac and therefore is the Mac

02:00:48   and and, you know, other PC platforms like Windows should be like that too. And that phones are

02:00:53   phones and that it's okay for the phone to be effectively a computer console. And it just in

02:00:59   the same way that I think it's fine that the consoles are all like that, that you know,

02:01:02   there's no there's no way to put homebrew sideloaded apps on a PlayStation without,

02:01:07   you know, cracking it like jailbreak. Exactly. Well, that's the thing, right? Like,

02:01:11   that you have to wait for those things to happen in those communities, you know, crop up and that's

02:01:15   great. But that's gaming PC is a gaming PC. And you could just, you know, make your own game,

02:01:21   mods, right? You can do mod, which are very popular. And that's the distinction. And that's,

02:01:26   right, that's fine. I think that they it's okay to be separate. So yeah, I think that,

02:01:30   you know, you're exactly right. It's not as if that middle area of being able to go and buy

02:01:36   directly hasn't existed. And it's also frankly, it's not as if I mean, there were mobile app

02:01:41   stores beforehand. And yeah, you know, the the carrier based ones were really egregious, but

02:01:47   I mean, none of them ever took off the way but there were still usually ways you could get

02:01:53   applications otherwise, like I used to side load things on to like my Sony Ericsson phones and on

02:01:57   my razor, you know, like you could find like jar files and stuff and you know, it was ridiculous

02:02:02   things you would do. So yeah, it just I feel like that's that's the one argument where I'm like,

02:02:07   okay, retail's different. And that's a straw man. If you have, if there are better arguments to make,

02:02:14   I would hope that they would make them but if all you're saying is Ticketmaster does it too.

02:02:18   And everybody else charges 30% and everybody else makes you go through the app. Like since when has

02:02:23   been the argument for Apple anything been everybody else does. Right. It's just like everybody else.

02:02:30   That's, you know, that's Apple just like everybody else. That's that's the opposite of Apple, right?

02:02:34   Like, why not do it the other way? And and why not, you know, and isn't there, you know, whatever

02:02:40   happened to bragging about the App Store being the first app store and you know, again, you know,

02:02:46   it's typical Apple Steve Jobsian we did when we did it. It's the first one that counts like

02:02:52   ignoring the fact that there were things for the Palm Pilot and whatever going back further that

02:02:56   were maybe App Store like and predecessors and arguably isn't first. But Apple's stance is that

02:03:01   the App Store revolutionized everything for mobile phones, and in large part, mostly true. So I think

02:03:07   that's completely true. Why not take responsibility for the fact that the 70/30 split that everybody

02:03:12   follows is quite probably mostly because that's what you do. You know, that's not like, oh,

02:03:17   we're just one of these 70/30 people. We don't know how it happened. But we're, you know,

02:03:21   everybody's in the same bus. Well, the bus has a big Apple logo on it called the App Store.

02:03:27   It's like the bus started literally with you, you built the bus, created it. No, I totally agree. I

02:03:33   was thinking that too. When I was reading this, it was like, yes, everyone does this because they've

02:03:37   all followed your lead. And what's interesting is that if they made this very, I think would be a

02:03:43   good decision, that would also force everyone else to follow their lead, which, okay, I just had this

02:03:51   thought. This is sort of interesting. So if Apple were to cut their commission rate, and presumably

02:03:57   then lose whatever their potential revenue could be, if Google has to do that too, and Microsoft

02:04:02   has to do that, and any other kind of stores have to do that, that also cuts their effective,

02:04:07   you know, service revenue rate, meaning that when we're talking about like our share price and

02:04:12   things like that, like all things being relative, guess what, like Apple still has the advantages

02:04:17   that Apple has. Yeah, I just see it as something that they could do and get buy-in from shareholders.

02:04:24   All they have to do is spin the right story. And then spin as a bad connotation, as a verb,

02:04:29   but you know, just put it in, you know, be honest about it. I think there's an honest explanation

02:04:35   about it that shareholders would buy into. No, I mean, I think they were simple saying,

02:04:39   this is the right thing to do. And this is the right thing for the future of our business.

02:04:42   Shareholders are going to be fine. And unless you could show a demonstrable, you know, say,

02:04:48   like this change has negatively impacted revenue, like where we're losing money, and we're losing

02:04:54   things, then I don't think anybody would go crazy. And honestly, if it were, if that were to happen,

02:05:00   and they needed to recalibrate, do the G4 thing, right? Like, I don't know, it's hard to be agile

02:05:08   when you're as big of a company as Apple. And I can't even imagine trying to make those decisions

02:05:11   when, you know, you have that many employees and that much revenue you're responsible for.

02:05:16   That to me is, that's what would make Tim Cook a great CEO. And again, I'm not saying he's not,

02:05:21   that makes it sound like I'm saying he's not. But the bigger the ship, the faster you can turn it,

02:05:25   is proof that you're really, you know, you can turn on a dime, right? That's the thing.

02:05:31   All right, let me take a break and thank our third and final sponsor. New sponsor,

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02:06:53   before we move on? I have two other topics. I know we've gone long. I appreciate your time.

02:06:57   We've gone super long, but no, no, no, no problem. All right, let me toss this out. Aaron Seppenwall wrote a story.

02:07:04   I don't know, Alan Seppenwall, I'm sorry, at Rolling Stone TV, Rolling Stone TV Critic,

02:07:12   calling out the terrible user interfaces of most streaming services. Yeah. And I, oh, this sounds

02:07:18   dangerous. This sounds like we could do all show on it, but we could. We'll be brief. Here's

02:07:23   here's my thought. What's what is a good streaming interface? My favorite, I have one

02:07:28   answer I can think of that I could think, you know what, I don't even know how, I would say you're good.

02:07:33   But I don't want to say what it is yet. I'll ask you, who do you think is doing a good job?

02:07:37   Okay, I actually do think that Netflix is doing a relatively good job. Relatively. My problem with

02:07:45   Netflix is, so it just, I know it's the top of my mind. Amy and I are watching, we're like one

02:07:52   episode to go of The Innocence Files, which is fantastic. If I were going to do a segment of the

02:07:57   show where I recommend something to watch, I'd say, oh my God, watch The Innocence Files. It's

02:08:01   like a nine episode mini series on The Innocence Project. And, you know, obviously years in the

02:08:08   works, but to come out now at this moment in our political climate about, you know, the police,

02:08:16   you know, in America and prosecution and the criminal justice reform that's necessary.

02:08:21   My God, this is, it, you cannot, the luck they have that this show came out when it did is just

02:08:27   unbelievable. Great show. Nine episodes. Every single time we go to watch it, what's at the top

02:08:35   of our Netflix? Not the next episode of The Innocence Files. It's something else that Netflix

02:08:39   has knew that wants to promote. And I got it. And it's not hard. So the, hey, Netflix is pretty good

02:08:46   is that I can go like down twice and it's like continue. And there it is at the top of my

02:08:51   continue list the next episode, but why it should be the top. No, I agree with that. Okay. So I'm

02:08:59   trying to think because most of them are terrible. And so I'm trying to think what is the least

02:09:03   worst? I mean, the app, the Apple TV plus interface isn't bad. My only issue with that is that it's

02:09:08   mingled in with all the other things. So I don't have access to just the Apple TV plus content,

02:09:14   which I would like. Yeah, right. There's like a little bit. It's like, I think given what they're

02:09:20   trying to do, the TV plus interface is actually pretty good, but there's too many that what

02:09:27   they're trying to do is include content from other sources that they don't have complete control over.

02:09:33   Right. Right. And I love that idea. I like having that centralized kind of organic watch list. My

02:09:39   only issue is that if I want to watch the morning show, if I want to watch like another, like Apple

02:09:43   TV plus content, I would like to see all of their, they're too humble about the TV plus content.

02:09:49   I would like to see them have just a TV plus app where it's just the Apple content. It's,

02:09:54   I would love that. And I think that would be good to that point. This is okay. This is what I'll

02:09:57   say. And it's funny cause it's going away. Um, and in a couple of days, um, I actually think that the

02:10:03   pre HBO max HBO go slash HBO now interface was really good. Huh? I'm an HBO go user. I am

02:10:12   already, I think I've successfully deleted it in anticipation of it being, uh, put to bed at the

02:10:19   end of the month for HBO max. I haven't used the HBO max one as much. Uh, I find it hard sometimes

02:10:26   though, like to an HBO go to find my favorite shows, like, cause I only watch, you know,

02:10:32   I don't watch all of it, you know, but it's like, Hey, every Sunday night I watched the John Oliver

02:10:36   show. So why isn't that, why is it so hard to find? Yeah. I mean, I guess the thing I like about it

02:10:42   is that of all the services, it's the one that does the least amount of like algorithmic stuff.

02:10:47   So it's basically you have a search, it puts things in collections and categories. There is hand

02:10:52   curation, which is really good. I can see like, you know, documentaries or sports things or other

02:10:57   stuff I might like. So that I guess it would be my pick. But again, I mean, this is Danny with

02:11:02   that with faint praise. I really, and I subscribe to an, I mean like a truly disgusting number of

02:11:10   streaming services. So yeah, I mean like I, I started, I actually, I started recently,

02:11:18   I've started a spreadsheet where I've, I'm, I'm tracking everything I'm subscribed to and it is,

02:11:23   it's ridiculous. Like every newsletter, whether I pay for it or not, but most of them I pay for it.

02:11:29   No, same for, for me when it comes to immediate, like me and, and, and Nilay Patel of the verge

02:11:34   often joke with one another that we're like the only two remaining like cable subscribers.

02:11:38   Oh, I am too. Okay. So there's three of us. We, we have, we have, we should have like a, a therapy

02:11:44   group because we're the only three left because we're, we're the biggest source of idiots because

02:11:49   we not only subscribe to the cable stuff, but we also subscribe to the other services. Like that's.

02:11:55   All right. Let me just, let me just tell you this. This is why I'm still subscribed to cable

02:11:59   and I still have, we have a, like, it's now old. I forget what, what the model name of Artivo is,

02:12:03   but Artivo has effectively infinite storage and it has a remote that always works. Pause and fast

02:12:10   forward are always, it's the best. It's still, I still don't understand why nobody else has fast

02:12:15   forward and rewind that work as well as TiVo. Uh, I agree. TiVo was, was the best. Okay. This

02:12:20   is funny because now we, you, me and Nilay are also the only three people who have a TiVo.

02:12:24   I, I let yesterday, I'm not going to talk sports, but I did yesterday. The baseball season started

02:12:29   and the Yankees were on against the Washington Nationals. It was the national game, nationally

02:12:34   televised game on ESPN. So I could watch it. I had two choices. I could watch on my TiVo through the

02:12:41   eight ESPN channel I get, or I could watch on the ESPN app on Apple TV. And I, you know, nerd that I

02:12:47   am between innings, like the second and third inning, I switched from the TiVo to the ESPN app.

02:12:52   Now, no surprise. I haven't used the ESPN app. It, oh, I guess I did. I watched the, the Michael

02:12:59   Jordan, uh, yeah, I was going to say I watched 30 for 30 on it. That's all I do. I watched the

02:13:02   Michael Jordan show, uh, the, the, the last dance, um, but I haven't watched sports. I haven't watched

02:13:08   sports on ESPN app in many months because there haven't been any sports. Anyway, guess what you

02:13:14   can't do in the ESPN app. You can't pause. You cannot pause. You cannot fast forward. You can't

02:13:21   go back. So if you like miss something in the baseball game, I went to like, go back a pitch,

02:13:25   you know, let me go back. Let me see that again. There's no, it's, it's like watching old-fashioned

02:13:30   TV. There is no, there's no DVR aspect at all. It's not just a bad fast forward. You, you,

02:13:35   right. There's none. There's no pause. Which means that we, which means that we have effectively,

02:13:39   like, regressed 20 years. Now, they do have all, all of the features, as far as I could, this is on

02:13:45   Apple TV and the ESPN app, all of the features they have about, like, when I click the trackpad

02:13:51   on the TV remote, we're about adding a second thing. So I can, like, do, like, three up or four

02:13:57   up, you know, and I could put four games on at once. Well, guess what? There weren't four games

02:14:01   on at once. There's one game. One game in the whole world is being played. It was the Yankees

02:14:06   and Nationals. There wasn't anything to put up. That is interesting. You can't do that on TiVo.

02:14:11   I can't watch four games. I don't want to watch four games at once. I want to watch one game.

02:14:15   You can't pause? What? What the hell? I got out of that so fast, went back to TiVo, and I thought,

02:14:22   this is why I still pay for cable, you know, like, $300 a month.

02:14:26   - Yeah, no, I'm in a similar situation. Like, Comcast, well, I don't get their internet,

02:14:31   although I'm about to. - Oh, God help you.

02:14:33   - Well, no, no, no, no, no. Here's why I'm doing it. I'll go on a brief tangent on this.

02:14:38   I pay for fiber through Wave G. They're fantastic. Not getting rid of them. But my bill will actually

02:14:44   be cheaper if I add a cable service, a cable internet service I don't use onto it.

02:14:49   - Ah, that's, yeah. Where are the regulators? - Isn't that disgusting?

02:14:52   - Where are the regulators? Anyway. - Exactly. Anyway, okay, so what's

02:14:55   the one good interface? Is it TiVo? Is that it for you?

02:14:57   - No, no, because I wouldn't count that. And actually TiVo's interface is terrible.

02:15:02   Once you're watching a show in TiVo, it's the best ever.

02:15:05   - Totally. But the other, the rest of it, it used to be so good.

02:15:09   - Right. - They've really gone down.

02:15:09   - But like managing everything else is horrible. No, it's the, it's Apple's Movies app.

02:15:14   And I guess that doesn't count as streaming. I think technically streaming is you pay a

02:15:20   subscription and you watch all you want for free. And the Movies app is you pay for movies

02:15:24   as you rent and buy them. But to me, what the hell are you talking about? It's the same fucking thing.

02:15:28   - No, I would agree with that. I think the Apple's Movies app, because I am, I love,

02:15:31   - It's fantastic. - It's fantastic.

02:15:33   - Here's what's popular. Here's what's new. And if you paused a movie last night, here it is.

02:15:39   Pick it up. It is the interface that is like, everybody forgets it. And I don't know if it's

02:15:47   because everybody has effectively decided, I'm spending so much on subscriptions every month.

02:15:53   There's no way I'm paying a rental fee for something else. You know, whatever. They don't

02:15:59   look at it. But that Movies app is so good in my opinion. I would be very hard pressed to

02:16:05   all of these other apps. I would love to spend an afternoon with their team and tell them what

02:16:10   annoys me about their app. - Oh, same. Same. Peacock. I did a mini Twitter thread and I had to give up

02:16:16   because it's so bad. And what's actually terrible about that is that the base NBC app, pretty good.

02:16:23   - Yeah, 'cause I've used that. I've used that to watch, like, I've used the NBC app to watch like,

02:16:28   oh, somebody good was on The Tonight Show last night. Oh, I want to go back and watch that.

02:16:33   I've used the NBC app. Yeah, the Peacock app is bad. The Quibi app is actually kind of good

02:16:41   on the phone, right? It's actually is a good app. It's just that everything else is so fakakta.

02:16:48   It's like, what the hell are you thinking about? - No, it is. I mean, they did finally introduce

02:16:53   the ability to do screenshots after everyone's canceled their subscriptions. At least I

02:16:59   definitely did. Like I had the free trial and then I was like, am I gonna, I'm gonna pay $5 a month

02:17:02   for this? Yeah, no, they, you know, refused to let people do screenshots. - That tells you everything

02:17:07   you need to know about the Jeffrey Katzenberg mindset. - I know, and it's insane to me 'cause

02:17:13   he gets content. - Right, because there is some-- - But he didn't get the tech stuff.

02:17:17   - There is some-- - He didn't get the social element. - There is some line that you want to draw

02:17:21   between making piracy through your content so difficult as to not be worth it, but yet not

02:17:29   interfering with the experience of your users and the benefits you can get from your users being

02:17:36   able to take screenshots and tweet and promote it, right? There's a huge benefit of that. And the

02:17:43   idea that you would take advantage of technical features in the operating system to make

02:17:47   screenshots technically impossible is the maximalist, you know, you couldn't possibly--

02:17:53   And what is the idea that you've, all right, so you've paid all this money to put a Kevin

02:17:58   Hart movie on Quibi, and you think somebody is going to take a screenshot of what, every frame

02:18:07   of the movie? - Exactly, it's like, what are you doing? You're ruining the ability to promote.

02:18:11   It's also like, look, the piracy is gonna happen. Like, that's a given. - What? - What you should do,

02:18:16   I mean, the way that iTunes won, the way that, you know, Netflix and those things ultimately won,

02:18:21   is if you make it more convenient to pay than to pirate, most people will pay. Like,

02:18:29   there are, it's always a subset of people who won't, but I'm a strong believer, and I say this

02:18:32   as someone who has been a hardcore pirate, but also someone who has been a hardcore buyer of

02:18:38   media like my whole life. It's been one of those things. And the reason I used to download torrents

02:18:41   all the time wasn't because I was cheap, it was because I couldn't get the movie or the TV show

02:18:46   any other way, or they would put draconian restrictions on where I could watch them, what I

02:18:50   could do, and I would get, like, just mad on principle. So, at this point, you know, it's easier

02:18:56   for me to use a Usenet group than it is to rip my, like, thousands of Blu-rays. So, okay, you do what's faster. - Like, in the old days, what if you pay for HBO, but you really want to watch The Sopranos, but you've got to watch on your laptop because you're not at home. So, what do you do? - Exactly. - You do pay, you pay for HBO. - You already pay for it, but you can't get access. So, yeah,

02:19:16   so the thing to me is, like, the best way to combat that is to make it more accessible.

02:19:20   In, for something like Quibi, where it's short, it's like, that would, that would open it up, like, if

02:19:27   you let people do GIFs and let people, you know, tweet screenshots and do other stuff. Like, it could

02:19:32   go viral, but when you don't do that, now you can. Like, you lose out on that whole thing. So, yeah, I'm,

02:19:38   you're not wrong. Like, the rest of the app is bad, but the interface is, at least, not bad. - If you really want to, if you want to get into the idea that you're going to police the

02:19:45   copyright of people posting clips of Quibi shows, you know, by taking a phone to video another phone

02:19:53   or taking a video, you know, because, you know, the phones don't let you, I guess you can record video,

02:19:58   now that I think about it, but, but... - Well, you can do screen recording, but the thing is they, they, but the, but they

02:20:03   will actually block that. Like, you can't do a screen recording. - Yeah, but what, but what do you think somebody's going to do with the screen recording of the show?

02:20:09   - Exactly. - Do you really think that they're going to pirate the whole thing? I mean, and it's like,

02:20:13   I would just love, but I can almost see it.

02:20:16   I can almost see the argument against

02:20:19   not allowing screen recording of video clips of the thing,

02:20:22   'cause what if they spoil the best joke or whatever?

02:20:25   But I would-- - That I'm not--

02:20:26   - Oh my God. - I'm not against that,

02:20:28   but a screenshot, or at least create an animated image.

02:20:31   You know what I mean?

02:20:32   - I would love to sit in a meeting

02:20:33   and listen to Jeffrey Katzenberg explain

02:20:35   why they don't even let you take a goddamn screenshot.

02:20:38   I would just love to hear the explanation,

02:20:40   the justification for they're ripping us off.

02:20:43   They're ripping us-- - Right, exactly.

02:20:45   You're ripping us off.

02:20:46   The free promotion is bad.

02:20:48   It's like you want it to go viral,

02:20:49   but you ruin every aspect.

02:20:51   Apparently that's been changed,

02:20:52   but I canceled my Quibi subscription.

02:20:54   - I forgot to cancel my goddamn Quibi subscription,

02:20:58   so they got $7 for me or something.

02:21:01   I gotta cancel now.

02:21:03   And again-- - Yeah, you know what I do?

02:21:04   I set reminders when I sign up for those things.

02:21:07   I say, this is one of the only times I use Siri.

02:21:10   I basically tell Siri to remind me on a certain day

02:21:14   to cancel.

02:21:15   - It's a good app, though.

02:21:16   That's the weird thing.

02:21:17   The phone version is good.

02:21:19   Why in the world they don't support iPad is crazy.

02:21:22   I actually did not get it out in time before we record,

02:21:25   but perhaps before the show airs it'll be out,

02:21:28   as I want to rant about the fact that the iPad,

02:21:30   it's always been weird launching iPhone-only apps on iPad

02:21:34   because they don't rotate,

02:21:36   and you have a choice between a 1X size

02:21:39   with enormous letterboxing around the side,

02:21:41   which looks ridiculous on iPad,

02:21:44   or 2X, which does take up most of the screen,

02:21:47   but not all, but scales in an ungainly way.

02:21:50   - In a bad way, yeah.

02:21:52   - But it's always been awkward, always been weird.

02:21:55   It's still with us,

02:21:56   but now you can dock your iPad in a magic keyboard

02:22:00   that Apple sells for $300

02:22:02   and puts it in a laptop configuration.

02:22:05   It's obviously officially sanctioned

02:22:07   because the trackpad support is in the OS,

02:22:09   and Apple's the one selling you

02:22:11   the $300 docking keyboard laptop thing.

02:22:14   And now when you launch, say, Quibi,

02:22:16   which is still iPhone-only on your iPad,

02:22:19   it launches sideways,

02:22:22   and the entire user interface goes sideways.

02:22:25   So if you Command + Tab out of Quibi, it's up and down.

02:22:30   And if you drag the dock out, it's on the side,

02:22:32   and everything is sideways.

02:22:35   How is that not a bug?

02:22:36   If you're using a real laptop and everything goes sideways,

02:22:39   you'd say, "Oh, I've got a weird video bug.

02:22:41   "Let me quick get a camera of this.

02:22:43   "Ha ha, my video card thinks the screen's sideways."

02:22:46   That's actually by design.

02:22:48   - I know, and what's even worse about this

02:22:50   is if you think about slide-over,

02:22:51   and if you think about the fact

02:22:52   that that's how they're doing multi-window stuff,

02:22:55   okay, why can't you have a slide-over thing

02:22:57   that is on-screen, like a picture-in-picture menu,

02:23:00   or a slide-over that is just,

02:23:03   the phone, either whatever orientation you're in,

02:23:06   either one way or the other, so it's showing up correctly.

02:23:09   It's showing maybe vertically when your iPad is horizontal,

02:23:14   and it's just kind of docked at some place on your screen.

02:23:16   'Cause I assume that's what they're gonna have to do

02:23:18   when they bring the apps to the Mac,

02:23:20   is that it's going to have to be,

02:23:23   'cause you can't turn your Mac,

02:23:24   so it's gonna have to be some sort of window

02:23:27   that you're seeing.

02:23:28   It's not going to be, some of them might be converted,

02:23:31   but most of them, there are gonna be plenty of apps

02:23:33   that won't be, developers won't go through the process

02:23:36   of trying to make them work in a four-by-three,

02:23:40   or whatever the--

02:23:41   - Yeah, what if Netflix, I don't think they're going to,

02:23:45   but what if Netflix says, okay, fine,

02:23:47   we're not gonna do a native Mac app,

02:23:48   but we will let our iOS app run on the Mac

02:23:52   in this new world.

02:23:53   Well, obviously, you wanna watch that sideways, right?

02:23:56   You wanna watch it landscape.

02:23:57   So how do you do that on a device that doesn't tilt?

02:24:01   My guess, I don't know.

02:24:02   I don't even think, has Apple,

02:24:04   I don't think the dev kits support that yet.

02:24:06   - No, they don't.

02:24:07   Well, what I imagine they'll do is that it'll,

02:24:09   that they would bring over the iPad app,

02:24:11   and that it would just come over

02:24:12   when it's in landscape mode.

02:24:14   That would be how the network, that would work,

02:24:16   and then you could make it full screen.

02:24:17   - My guess, or what if they, what if those,

02:24:19   I mean, they obviously know that,

02:24:21   okay, this is an iOS app running.

02:24:23   What if those apps have a window control

02:24:28   that includes a rotation button,

02:24:30   like the red, yellow, green buttons?

02:24:32   What if there's a purple one that,

02:24:34   which has gone unused since 2000,

02:24:36   Steve Jobs' goofy idea that a purple button

02:24:38   would put your Mac into single app, single window mode,

02:24:43   put a purple button up there that rotates the screen,

02:24:47   and then it would even work well with Quibi, right?

02:24:49   'Cause it would be purple.

02:24:50   - Yeah, there you go.

02:24:51   It would be purple. - A Quibi button.

02:24:53   - Yeah, that's not a bad idea, but no,

02:24:54   that's gonna be interesting

02:24:55   how they'll handle the rotation stuff.

02:24:56   My thought is that phones will default almost exclusively

02:25:01   to vertical as long as that's a supported orientation,

02:25:06   and it'll be docked.

02:25:07   - It's appropriate for most,

02:25:09   except for the ones where it's not,

02:25:10   and the ones where it's not, it's 100% inappropriate, right?

02:25:13   Games and video, you know, there's also--

02:25:16   - No, I agree.

02:25:17   Well, but again, this is my point.

02:25:18   I think that for the phones, that's what they'll do,

02:25:20   and for the iPad versions,

02:25:21   they will actually do the opposite,

02:25:22   where it'll be defaulting to horizontal,

02:25:25   or not horizontal, yeah, yeah, to horizontal.

02:25:27   - The state we're in right now,

02:25:28   10 years into the iPad era of iPhone apps on iPad,

02:25:33   which is just as terrible as it ever was,

02:25:37   but yet more incongruous than it was when it was introduced,

02:25:41   because at least when it was introduced 10 years ago,

02:25:44   every iPad app was a full-screen app,

02:25:48   and some of them didn't rotate,

02:25:50   and you always were, you know, even though--

02:25:53   - Well, you remember the original iPad keyboard, right?

02:25:55   Like, you had to dock it vertically.

02:25:57   People forget that.

02:25:58   - Right.

02:25:59   - I still have one of those.

02:26:02   - Anyway, all right, so my idea is that movies,

02:26:06   iTunes Movies is the only app that's actually good.

02:26:09   Netflix is probably a second up.

02:26:11   I think Apple TV gets credit for trying

02:26:15   to put a cohesive interface on incohesive rules

02:26:19   around where the content can come from,

02:26:21   where sometimes it'll just play the video,

02:26:23   and sometimes it'll launch the CBS All Access app

02:26:26   and jump you to the app, and then you go back,

02:26:29   and then instead of going back in the CBS app,

02:26:32   which is where you were, you're back in the TV app,

02:26:34   and what happened?

02:26:36   I don't know.

02:26:37   Trying to make sense of incoherent rules

02:26:39   with a coherent interface, they get extra credit,

02:26:42   but it is a bad interface overall.

02:26:44   - Yeah, Hulu is probably the worst, which is a shame,

02:26:47   'cause it's the best service, in my opinion,

02:26:50   and the interface is just a disaster.

02:26:51   - Overlines, they invented something called an overline

02:26:55   to show you what's selected. (laughs)

02:26:57   - Well, so it's funny because--

02:26:58   - What? - Yeah, right.

02:27:00   Well, what's funny is that when the first,

02:27:02   and the launch, it's better than it was three years ago,

02:27:04   but when they showed me a preview of the UI at CES 2017,

02:27:09   they were really proud, and it looked really good

02:27:11   on a TV, and it looked like it could be well-controlled

02:27:15   from a game controller, and the screenshots were all good,

02:27:17   and then they were kind of going through it,

02:27:19   and I was like, okay, but this seems a little bit confusing,

02:27:22   and this is gonna add a lot of stuff, especially for anyone

02:27:25   who's using a TV remote and not a game controller.

02:27:29   How are you gonna do this?

02:27:30   And they just assured me, it's fine, it's fine.

02:27:32   I was like, I pushed back a little bit.

02:27:34   I was like, all right, whatever, and it launched,

02:27:37   and the immediate feedback was just,

02:27:42   the user, the revolt was almost unlike anything

02:27:45   I can remember.

02:27:46   The comments we got at Gizmodo on how much people hated

02:27:49   that interface, and I know from talking to people at TiVo

02:27:52   like they felt it too, that they started trying to,

02:27:54   or not TiVo, Hulu, they started trying to make adjustments

02:27:57   and changes, but it's three years later,

02:28:00   and the only thing I can say is that it's better,

02:28:03   but the old interface wasn't bad.

02:28:07   You know, they just, yeah, it's a mess.

02:28:12   Disney+ isn't bad, actually.

02:28:13   - No, I would say that's pretty good too.

02:28:16   I think that the hey, they all stink argument

02:28:19   is overstated, and I don't wanna say

02:28:22   that Alan Sepawal's article is off base,

02:28:24   but it's not as bad as the hot take might have you think.

02:28:30   I agree, Disney+ is pretty good,

02:28:32   and I think they get extra credit for launching

02:28:36   with a very good 1.0.

02:28:37   - A very good 1.0.

02:28:40   The one thing I really love about Disney+ was,

02:28:42   and a couple other apps do this too,

02:28:43   but they have a thing where if you do it

02:28:46   on certain TV devices, including the Apple TV,

02:28:49   but also some Samsungs and some other devices,

02:28:51   rather than having to go through the terrible rigmarole

02:28:54   of having to enter in your complicated password

02:28:57   and email with a TV remote,

02:29:00   they don't even have the thing where you would have,

02:29:03   like you, I guess, have the option of doing the thing

02:29:05   where you go to the website URL and log in,

02:29:07   but instead they have a thing where they say,

02:29:09   okay, do you have a phone near you that's logged in

02:29:11   or that you have access to?

02:29:12   If you do, open the app on your phone,

02:29:15   and then it'll use WiFi or Bluetooth or whatever

02:29:18   to pair the two together and send in your credentials.

02:29:21   And that was such a seamless experience.

02:29:23   I remember I actually tweeted it.

02:29:26   I went through the process.

02:29:28   I saw it, it was cool, and then I went through it again

02:29:30   so I could document it because I was like,

02:29:31   okay, this is actually a really slick way

02:29:34   to get around that.

02:29:35   So yeah, no, I'm looking at the app now, even on my phone.

02:29:39   They have the pillar categories.

02:29:42   They have the recommendations for you.

02:29:43   They have the continued watching area.

02:29:45   They have the trending sections.

02:29:48   Yeah, I think actually that the Disney app is quite good.

02:29:52   - Yeah, and the other thing too is that they're not

02:29:53   trying to sell you anything else.

02:29:55   It's like you're already in, you're already paid.

02:29:57   They're not, there's no, and again, I get it, I do get it,

02:30:01   and I see the Peacock ads where Peacock's ads

02:30:04   are all about like, hey, it is free, it's free.

02:30:07   Here's finally, here's a new streaming service

02:30:08   where it's free.

02:30:09   Of course, it's because they got

02:30:10   these unskippable commercials.

02:30:12   - Right, which it took me all of,

02:30:15   I was trying to watch a movie just to test it out.

02:30:17   It took me all of, because the first ad for the movies,

02:30:19   it's good, right?

02:30:20   It's only, it's like three minutes or whatever

02:30:22   that you have to watch at the beginning,

02:30:23   and then you watch the whole movie

02:30:25   unprompted without any ads.

02:30:26   I actually applaud that.

02:30:28   I think that's fantastic.

02:30:29   I have been so reconditioned of 20 years of TiVo and DVRs

02:30:33   and on demand and streaming and downloading content

02:30:37   and whatnot that I was like,

02:30:39   I was like a little over a minute

02:30:42   into my three minute wait period,

02:30:43   and I exited out of the app,

02:30:45   which doesn't play in the background

02:30:46   and doesn't have picture in picture, which is annoying.

02:30:49   And I went to the website and I upgraded my,

02:30:52   like the plus version or the premium version I get

02:30:55   via Comcast and I was like, yep,

02:30:57   paying $5 a month for this.

02:30:58   I cannot deal with the odds.

02:30:59   - Yeah, that was my story with The Last Dance

02:31:02   where I forgot to TiVo it,

02:31:03   went to, waited too long to get it like on replay on ESPN.

02:31:09   So I watched in the app and they had,

02:31:11   they weren't quite unskippable,

02:31:13   but you still, it's like this process of skipping

02:31:16   was just such a pain in the ass.

02:31:17   But I also didn't have the patience

02:31:18   to wait for it to come out on Netflix,

02:31:20   where it is, it actually just came out.

02:31:22   - It just launched this week, I was gonna say.

02:31:23   - And that's actually what they were trying to promote to me

02:31:26   instead of the next episode of The Innocence Files.

02:31:28   I was like, dude, I watched that.

02:31:30   - You're like, I already watched this.

02:31:31   Don't you know, like show me the thing

02:31:32   I've actually been watching.

02:31:33   You're like, it's not a bad recommendation,

02:31:35   like good recommendation, but not,

02:31:37   I've been watching The Innocence Files, yeah.

02:31:39   - It does remind me a little bit

02:31:40   of the way cell phones were pre-iPhone,

02:31:43   where it was sort of like everybody had their own way

02:31:46   of doing everything, you know, like even like texting,

02:31:48   and it was like-- - Totally.

02:31:49   - You kinda had to learn, it's like every time

02:31:51   you get one of these new things like Peacock

02:31:53   and you're like, where, what, what, what?

02:31:55   - Which is so weird because there have been,

02:31:58   okay, like, okay, I actually think that on the whole,

02:32:00   I think Roku, I'm not a big fan, I don't like the interface.

02:32:03   Here's the one area where I will kind of defend them

02:32:05   and their kind of subpar interfaces,

02:32:07   because, you know, their hardware,

02:32:09   the apps for the most part have to still work on like,

02:32:12   really, really old stuff.

02:32:14   And so some of the apps like Amazon and, you know,

02:32:18   Netflix and Hulu have customized to a certain point,

02:32:21   but the rest of them follow a very common template.

02:32:25   And it's not the best looking thing, but it works,

02:32:28   and you can navigate around it,

02:32:29   and it's a good 10-foot experience.

02:32:31   And I have to say, like, I think that my Fire TV stick

02:32:34   was a much better value, and when I used to travel,

02:32:37   I would take my 4K Fire TV stick with me everywhere

02:32:39   because unlike an Apple TV, it would work with hotel Wi-Fi,

02:32:43   and now that there's the Apple TV app available

02:32:46   on the Amazon devices, I could watch all of my purchased

02:32:51   TV shows as well as their content.

02:32:54   So, you know, that's a better value,

02:32:55   but the interface on the Roku is like bare bones as it is.

02:32:59   I gotta give them credit, at least for the 10-foot experience.

02:33:03   You know, I don't know what their mobile situation is like.

02:33:07   I know they have their own channels now.

02:33:08   I don't mess with that, but the 10-foot experience

02:33:10   on the TV itself, I have to kind of give them credit.

02:33:13   It's bare bones, but it does its job.

02:33:16   - I had that, you saying that made me think

02:33:18   of the old Apple TV, the original Apple TV before TVOS,

02:33:22   and the way that even the Netflix app,

02:33:24   there weren't really apps.

02:33:25   They were like just things that look like apps,

02:33:28   and they were all, Apple made them all.

02:33:30   And so like the way that you watch Netflix on Apple TV

02:33:33   wasn't with a Netflix-made app.

02:33:35   It was through an app Apple made in their template

02:33:38   that they did with the participation of Netflix

02:33:41   to get the APIs for Netflix sign-in and content,

02:33:43   and everything had the same interface,

02:33:45   and the interface was actually pretty good.

02:33:48   - Yeah, yeah, and what happened there--

02:33:50   - And all of a sudden I have this sense of loss.

02:33:51   I have this sense-- - No, no, massively.

02:33:53   And what happened there, and I know this for a fact,

02:33:55   'cause I actually talked to Netflix about it at the time,

02:33:57   was that Netflix wanted to own their user interface,

02:34:01   and they wanted it to be consistent across all platforms.

02:34:04   And look, you know what, from their perspective,

02:34:06   I understand, they have their own brand,

02:34:09   and they develop their own identity.

02:34:12   You want that everywhere.

02:34:13   So when they could, they started to update,

02:34:16   and Apple even had to give them leeway

02:34:19   and do certain things, even within tvOS,

02:34:22   that you might not otherwise be able to do,

02:34:24   and Amazon's followed suit.

02:34:26   And it's a shame, because I do think

02:34:27   that having those constraints,

02:34:29   even if it made the apps less flashy for screenshots,

02:34:32   and look less good in sales presentations,

02:34:35   from a user experience point of view, so much better.

02:34:38   - You just didn't even have to think about it.

02:34:40   - No. - All right.

02:34:40   Well, good place to end.

02:34:42   Thank you, Christina Warren, for your time.

02:34:43   This was, you know, the fact that we went so long

02:34:46   is proof that I should have had you on the show sooner.

02:34:49   - Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you for having me.

02:34:50   - So you're on a regular podcast, Rocket,

02:34:53   with your co-host, Brianna Wu, and Simone,

02:34:57   I'm gonna, you say her last name.

02:34:59   - Derochfour. - Derochfour.

02:35:02   @relay, you could just search for Rocket podcast.

02:35:07   - Yeah, relay.fm/rocket.

02:35:10   - And bizarre coincidence, your next episode of Rocket

02:35:15   will be episode 290 of Rocket.

02:35:17   This episode that you're listening to of the talk show

02:35:20   is episode 290 of the talk show.

02:35:24   Very strange. - I love it.

02:35:25   It's completely strange, but I love it.

02:35:27   - If I were into conspiracy theories,

02:35:29   I could spin some kind of whole story

02:35:30   that this was the cause of 5G towers leading to coronavirus,

02:35:35   'cause it all comes back to 290.

02:35:40   - Oh.

02:35:41   - But, hmm, but I'm not.

02:35:43   Anyway, and also on Twitter, of course,

02:35:45   your excellent, prolific Twitter.

02:35:47   But yet somehow, I don't think, I've been following you,

02:35:51   I knew you were gonna be on the show today,

02:35:52   you haven't tweeted about the new Taylor Swift album yet,

02:35:56   have you, or have you tweeted about it?

02:35:57   - Oh, that's been all I've been tweeting about

02:35:59   for the last 12 hours.

02:36:01   Oh, I know you're joking, but just for the audience,

02:36:03   I haven't said anything about it, it's weird.

02:36:04   I haven't said anything about it.

02:36:07   Yeah, no, I tried to warn people.

02:36:08   I was like, if you follow me for other stuff,

02:36:11   like, I usually try to use hashtags.

02:36:15   When we have TV, I'm a fan of the trash

02:36:18   that is known as the Bachelor and the Bachelorette,

02:36:21   and I always use the hashtags specifically

02:36:23   so people can mute me, because otherwise,

02:36:27   I know that I drive people out the wall, so.

02:36:29   (laughing)

02:36:31   Usually, usually it's-- - A fast thinker

02:36:32   and a fast typist is often either very entertaining

02:36:37   or, you know, time to get out the mute filters on Twitter,

02:36:41   but I don't mind, I'm glad, I feel like you're keeping me

02:36:44   up to date, now I know, it's thanks to you,

02:36:46   I know there's a new Taylor Swift album.

02:36:48   Anyway, on Twitter, @FilmGirl, with an underscore

02:36:52   between the film and the girl.

02:36:54   - Yes. - And we didn't even get

02:36:56   into talking about how shitty the Lord of the Rings movies

02:36:58   are, but we'll have to save that for the next time you're on

02:37:00   because that, if anything, is Evergreen content.

02:37:04   - That is Evergreen, and yes, we will save that

02:37:08   for the next time, if you'd like to have me on again,

02:37:10   'cause I would love to talk to another fellow

02:37:13   Lord of the Rings hater.

02:37:13   There's so few of us. - And my thanks,

02:37:15   my thanks to our sponsors, who may or may not hate

02:37:19   the Lord of the Rings movies, don't blame the sponsors.

02:37:22   Raycon-- - Don't blame them.

02:37:23   - Who makes great wireless earbuds and Squarespace

02:37:27   and Mac Weldon, my God, how could I forget?

02:37:31   Mac Weldon, go there and get the slippers.

02:37:33   Buy all the other stuff too, but get the slippers