The Talk Show

286: Remote From WWDC 2020 With Craig Federighi and Greg Joswiak


00:00:00   Hey, it's me, your internet pal John Gruber.

00:00:05   I am here at home in Philadelphia, not in California for WWDC because you are probably

00:00:13   at home too because we're all at home.

00:00:16   It is a very different WWDC and it is a very different edition of the talk show from WWDC

00:00:24   because it's not really from WWDC.

00:00:28   It is what it is and I miss you all.

00:00:32   It is very different to be here in my office all by myself than to be on stage in front

00:00:39   of a thousand people.

00:00:42   But I'm happy to be here talking to you and I have some great guests and a great conversation

00:00:48   coming up.

00:00:50   But I also have some fantastic sponsors and I want to tell you about them right now.

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00:02:31   And Exchange manages calendars through something called a delegate, which I never heard of.

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00:10:20   Now I said before one of the things I miss, I'll admit it, I miss having a thousand people

00:10:30   cheer when I come out here to start the show.

00:10:33   I don't have it.

00:10:34   I've got nobody cheering for me right now.

00:10:37   But I miss the interpersonal stuff.

00:10:40   I miss seeing each one of you who come to the show.

00:10:44   I miss meeting you after the show.

00:10:45   I miss seeing you around San Jose.

00:10:48   But I also miss my friends.

00:10:49   And one of my friends, my good friend Paul Kefasis,

00:10:53   I've had the privilege-- he has a great voice,

00:10:55   just a natural voice.

00:10:58   Ah, sounds so good.

00:10:59   I've had him do the announcement before the show for years.

00:11:04   In fact, I can't remember--

00:11:05   I don't know if I've ever even done one of these live shows

00:11:08   where it wasn't Paul backstage with a microphone doing the "Ladies and Gentlemen, here's John

00:11:14   Gruber."

00:11:15   And then that's how I come out, and it's like part of the thing.

00:11:18   I see my friend Paul, he announces me.

00:11:22   Here I already am though, I don't need an introduction, I'm already talking to you.

00:11:26   Right here.

00:11:27   But what I thought I could do is I could bring Paul in and have Paul introduce my guests

00:11:34   for the show.

00:11:35   Welcome to this very special, socially distant episode of the talk show live.

00:11:42   This episode is coming to you from Apple's worldwide developer conference 2020.

00:11:48   Sort of.

00:11:50   Join us as we welcome Apple's own Craig Federighi and Greg Jazwiak.

00:11:57   Craig, Jaz, welcome to the talk show again.

00:12:02   It is slightly different than last year.

00:12:05   Just a tad.

00:12:07   [laughter]

00:12:09   What do you mean by that?

00:12:11   That was my shirt.

00:12:13   Way more curved glass this year.

00:12:15   Way more curved glass,

00:12:17   way fewer cheering audience members.

00:12:21   We missed them.

00:12:23   Craig, you didn't even get to run onto the stage.

00:12:31   the stage.

00:12:32   [Laughter]

00:12:33   I really feel restrained right now.

00:12:35   This is—I'm in a little—I'm stuck on a chair.

00:12:38   This is tough.

00:12:39   You did run—

00:12:40   You missed it.

00:12:41   We had a stopwatch on them, and every time we're like, "You can do better.

00:12:43   You can go faster than that.

00:12:44   We need this to go quicker.

00:12:46   People are waiting for you."

00:12:47   It was awesome.

00:12:48   That's right.

00:12:49   The marketing team is very demanding.

00:12:51   [Laughter]

00:12:52   I did think—just at a meta level briefly, I really enjoyed the keynote.

00:13:00   And one of the things that I thought was really interesting was that the format gave people

00:13:07   who've never been there, and that's most people who watch these, a better sense of the geography

00:13:14   of the Steve Jobs theater.

00:13:18   Everybody knows what the stage looks like.

00:13:19   That's what you see when you watch a keynote.

00:13:22   But after Tim spoke and they pulled out and they went to, I don't even know what you call

00:13:26   at the white area, the hands-on area right outside.

00:13:30   - Hands-on area. - Great white cylindrical area.

00:13:32   - Yeah. (laughing)

00:13:35   And then you go upstairs,

00:13:37   and there's a very nice atrium pavilion with the glass walls

00:13:41   and you can see the rest of the park.

00:13:42   But I felt like that gave everybody

00:13:44   a three-dimensional sense of it

00:13:46   that I don't think they got before.

00:13:48   - Well, and the drone trip, of course,

00:13:50   to and from the fitness center.

00:13:51   - Right, right. - Which was a super cool way

00:13:54   to see the campus.

00:13:55   We thought people would get an appreciation for that, kind of seeing, as Tim said, our

00:13:58   home here at Apple Park.

00:14:00   People don't normally get a chance to see that.

00:14:02   Yeah.

00:14:03   And those parts of the Steve Jobs Theater are just so cool that it was amazing to get

00:14:08   to show them off, actually, and to use the space in this new way that I think we hadn't

00:14:12   previously envisioned.

00:14:13   No.

00:14:14   No, it was a really great opportunity, for sure.

00:14:18   I will say, before we move on to actual topics, I will say I think that they fudged—I think

00:14:24   guys fudged the running up the stairs. No way, man. What? Come on. No way. I trained

00:14:32   for that for months. You are doubting the speed of Craig Federighi. That's unheard of.

00:14:38   It's a lot of stairs. I could be the crane any day of the week. I'm telling you, he is

00:14:42   the fastest software engineering senior VP you have ever seen. I'll put him against any

00:14:47   other tech company. He is fast. Yeah, check Wikipedia against all senior VPs of software.

00:14:53   I mean, I'm right up there in the ratings.

00:14:54   It's uh, all right.

00:14:56   I did.

00:14:57   Wait, I I'll bet.

00:14:58   I would bet.

00:14:59   I mean, you know, no offense.

00:15:01   I'll bet you can beat Phil in a race.

00:15:03   Untested.

00:15:06   I don't know.

00:15:09   I've seen Phil run.

00:15:10   I think he'd surprise you.

00:15:11   Uh, I think it'd be close race.

00:15:15   Closer than you think.

00:15:15   I have Jaws.

00:15:17   You'll be happy to know.

00:15:18   I have my usual assortment of blue note cards full of questions.

00:15:23   We are never going to get to all of them.

00:15:24   There was a lot of stuff announced yesterday.

00:15:27   Before we get into WWDC announcements, though,

00:15:30   I do want to talk a little bit about the App Store.

00:15:33   It's been in the news a little bit in the last week,

00:15:36   and we could easily spend a whole two-hour show

00:15:41   talking about the App Store.

00:15:42   We can't.

00:15:43   We don't have time.

00:15:44   I would just like to say at the highest level,

00:15:48   without getting into any specific issues,

00:15:51   are you guys listening to developer feedback

00:15:55   on where they feel about the App Store

00:15:58   and where third-party developers feel their position

00:16:02   in the App Store is?

00:16:04   - Oh, absolutely, Jon.

00:16:05   I mean, you know, when you look at the App Store,

00:16:07   I mean, this whole week is about developers, right?

00:16:09   It's about providing information for developers,

00:16:12   listening to developers, and, you know,

00:16:14   I've been around for a long time.

00:16:15   You know, that, I've been at Apple for decades,

00:16:17   And I look back at what we've done with the App Store and the iPhone and the way we've changed the daily lives of users and developers in a way that's almost hard to remember what things were like.

00:16:29   I remember what software development and distribution was prior to 2008.

00:16:33   If you were a small developer, it was pretty hard to get a title published.

00:16:39   And if you did get a title published and then you went to a publisher, and after the publisher

00:16:44   and the channel took their cut, you were left as a small software developer with very little,

00:16:51   and again, that's assuming you even got published.

00:16:53   And we revolutionized that.

00:16:54   We changed that.

00:16:55   We leveled the playing field, so whether you were a small developer or a big developer,

00:16:59   we gave you a way to get distribution, and not just local distribution, you get worldwide

00:17:05   distribution with the App Store and it changed everything. We have two million apps now,

00:17:13   as I said, we've changed the daily lives of our users and our developers. And all along

00:17:17   the way, we've tried to listen. We've tried to pay attention to what our developers are

00:17:21   saying, not just in weeks like this, but certainly during weeks like this. And we've made a lot

00:17:25   of changes along the way. As a matter of fact, yesterday we put out a pretty big release,

00:17:31   which I urge you to go look at, that showed here are the things that we're doing for developers

00:17:36   this week, everything from APIs and tools that are changing, as well as new ways to

00:17:41   provide us feedback and new ways to even challenge decisions that we make. We're all about what

00:17:48   we can do together. That's what Tim was saying. The world is counting on all of us, Apple

00:17:52   and our developers, to help us move forward. That's why we put so much effort into this

00:17:57   week. That's why we put so much effort, as you saw, into the keynote, into these sessions.

00:18:00   about what Apple and developers can do to help move things forward. And I'm proud of that. I'm

00:18:05   super proud of that. Okay. On to the news. And yes, there is a lot of it. I'm going to start with the

00:18:18   Mac because the Mac is the part that I do not want to run out of time on on this show. And I, you

00:18:28   know, I know you guys aren't going to analyze and I know all of your platforms are just like your

00:18:33   children. You cannot pick a favorite. I can say though that the Mac is my favorite platform.

00:18:41   Or at least it's the one that's the nearest and dearest to my heart. And I think it was Craig that

00:18:49   you said it is the one that you guys yourselves use to make your other platforms. Can you speak to that?

00:18:59   That's right. Oh yeah, no, I mean, I think while you're right, we can't pick a favorite child here.

00:19:05   I think for many of us, the Mac, it's hard to separate the path and history of the Mac from

00:19:11   our own careers, our own lives. I mean, the Mac is why so many of us got into computing in the

00:19:17   first place, got into being software engineers, caring about design.

00:19:22   The Mac is pretty deep in all of our souls.

00:19:27   So to get to this year, announce such tremendous investments into the future of the Mac.

00:19:33   The Mac's had this incredible history, and now even decades in, we're showing this

00:19:39   is just the beginning for the Mac, that we are bringing all of Apple's best talents

00:19:44   and technologies to bear on building the best Macs we can for a long, long time to come.

00:19:51   So it was a fantastic day for all of us to finally get to reveal how much effort we're

00:19:58   putting into the Mac and where we want to take it.

00:20:02   So at a high level, and this has come up now, we've done this show enough years in a row

00:20:09   where it's almost a recurring theme.

00:20:11   And I sense a certain frustration.

00:20:13   And a year ago at WWDC, there was a part where I think it was when you were introducing Catalyst

00:20:23   or maybe right before, but it was you had directly head on addressed the question, are

00:20:28   we merging the iOS and Mac platforms into one?

00:20:33   And then a giant no drops out of the sky on this screen.

00:20:39   No, period.

00:20:40   with the big animated effect.

00:20:42   And I feel like you guys were like, what more can we say?

00:20:47   And then the speculation continues unabated

00:20:52   that you guys are phasing out the Mac.

00:20:55   You guys probably are bored with it.

00:20:57   It's a legacy platform.

00:20:59   Is there a sense-

00:21:01   - We're thinking a weird way to show it, aren't we?

00:21:03   - Right.

00:21:03   Well, but that's just the thing is you guys have created,

00:21:09   There's new API, not just APIs,

00:21:11   new APIs come out every WWDC,

00:21:13   but literally new ways that developers can think

00:21:16   about creating Mac apps.

00:21:19   We'll get into it as a separate thing,

00:21:22   but literally a new hardware platform,

00:21:26   all new user interface from corner to corner,

00:21:30   this is a platform that you guys are fully focused on.

00:21:38   Oh, yeah. No, I mean, you've said it.

00:21:41   I mean, just at every everywhere you turn, we're putting massive investments into driving the Mac forward in big, bold ways.

00:21:50   As you say, you know, you look at, you know, we introduced Swift UI last year and we made sure that Swift UI was a great way to build native Mac apps.

00:21:59   You can build them on top of all of our UI platforms.

00:22:03   we've continued to invest on taking the UI Kit SDK

00:22:08   and making it a great way to build native Mac apps.

00:22:11   And as you point out, I mean,

00:22:13   the new user interface design language

00:22:17   that we introduced this year in Big Sur,

00:22:20   obviously huge investment in vitality in the platform.

00:22:23   And then the investment we've made

00:22:25   in bringing great new apps and first-class app experiences.

00:22:28   Many of us use messages across all our devices

00:22:32   very often on our Macs constantly. And so to be able to bring the full capabilities of messages

00:22:39   and to be on a path where it can always be current with all the latest capabilities we add is just

00:22:44   such a great path ahead for us. So yeah, we love the Mac and we're all in.

00:22:50   Yeah, Jon, if I could just say from a marketing or business standpoint,

00:22:53   it would make no sense, right? It would make no sense. You know, the Mac is a giant,

00:23:01   successful business that decades later is still vibrant and still flourishing. And part

00:23:07   of the reason for that, by the way, as Tim said, because with the Mac business, we haven't

00:23:13   been afraid to make bold changes to embrace new innovations in order to keep the Mac relevant

00:23:19   and at the forefront of personal computing. And our goal is to make it the best personal

00:23:24   computer in the world. And we're doing that, right? We lead the industry in customer satisfaction,

00:23:28   and it's a growing business.

00:23:29   The iPad, we want to make it the best tablet.

00:23:31   And guess what?

00:23:32   We lead the industry in customer satisfaction,

00:23:35   and it's a giant business.

00:23:36   There's no reason you would merge those, right?

00:23:40   And at an emotional level, I can tell you,

00:23:42   to the point of Craig and Alan in the video,

00:23:44   we're far from bored with the Mac.

00:23:46   It's in our DNA, right?

00:23:47   It is the way we do so much of our jobs.

00:23:50   So I don't know how many other ways we can say no,

00:23:52   but I guess we're gonna use a bigger font next year.

00:23:55   - Yeah. (laughs)

00:23:57   So let's talk about messages because that is a,

00:24:02   to me, it's a perfect tie-in with Catalyst.

00:24:05   And Catalyst, you guys said it,

00:24:09   it's not like this is me reading between the lines,

00:24:12   but you guys have said this is a multi-year,

00:24:15   not a transition, but a multi-year process

00:24:19   of getting this from here's the first version

00:24:23   we're showing you to here's catalyst as a fully developed, mature set of APIs. And I don't know if

00:24:36   you've noticed, I've had some words to say about some of the catalyst apps that we've seen previously.

00:24:42   You don't say.

00:24:48   Yes, yes. But I have tried to. And they have been largely skeptical, I think, I would hope is a fair

00:24:59   judgment. Because rather than trying to say, "Well, this is deficient in X, Y, Z ways," or "I don't

00:25:08   like this or that," or "This seems limited," period, that means catalyst is no good. This is

00:25:16   just the way it is right now. And, you know, just to name one example, in the Mac developer app,

00:25:23   which is great to have because there was no Mac developer app before, but it was on Catalina,

00:25:31   when you go to full screen video, it doesn't jump out to full screen. It only fills the window. And

00:25:36   then if you make the window full screen, you still have the window Chrome on the full screen. And it

00:25:42   It just seems a little limiting that full screen video in the Mac developer app isn't

00:25:50   just full screen video.

00:25:51   Yeah, sure.

00:25:54   I mean, I think you started out by saying what I think we've said many times, which

00:25:59   is we do view Catalyst as a, it has been a major multi-year initiative for us.

00:26:07   And it's not something that is done in year one or even year two.

00:26:12   And we've known from the outset where we were headed.

00:26:17   We knew in fact that Cadillacs would also be a foundation for a feature we announced

00:26:21   yesterday with the ability to actually directly run iOS and iPad apps on Mac silicon, which

00:26:27   is another use of that same core technology.

00:26:32   But along the way, we knew it's no small matter to take a framework that was initially,

00:26:37   a set of APIs that were initially designed for touch and to bring them to provide all

00:26:44   of the full fidelity of the Mac experience.

00:26:48   But we've been doing it.

00:26:49   And part of the way we do it, of course, is to exercise it internally.

00:26:53   Part of the way we do it is to get it out there to developers in its earlier stages

00:26:57   to get feedback and understand what people need.

00:27:01   Pushing it all the way to a really core system app like Messages though is one of the ultimate

00:27:09   tests, right?

00:27:10   There's no grounds for error, I think, on Messages.

00:27:19   We need it to be great.

00:27:20   We need it to be a core Mac experience.

00:27:22   We also pushed it hard with the new version of Maps, and all of this helped us further

00:27:27   mature catalyst, further refine its ability to provide a really full fidelity Mac experience.

00:27:34   And we think that's, we know that's great for us in terms of how it's enabled us to

00:27:38   bring more apps that are completely full featured, whether that's Swift Playgrounds or Messages

00:27:46   or Maps, and have that path ahead to keep them current.

00:27:50   But we also know it's matured that foundation such that many, many more developers can bring

00:27:55   much richer, much better apps.

00:27:57   Now I'm not saying that you're not going to find some, "Oh, we are not done.

00:28:03   I'm not declaring victory at the end of year three."

00:28:06   But I hope we've turned the corner, and I'll say to you, I hope we will turn the

00:28:10   corner with you this year where it's no longer about skepticism with the overall enterprise,

00:28:16   but an understanding that, "Hey, we're well along a journey and it's not perfect,

00:28:20   but boy, this is obviously going the right way and this is going to take us to great

00:28:24   places."

00:28:25   known and believed for years now. I hope it'll be purely evident to you and to the rest of the

00:28:31   community how great this is going to be for the Mac over time. I think I, so I, you know, this is

00:28:40   about 24 hours after the keynote, so I can't say that I've spent tons of time with all of the stuff

00:28:46   you've announced yesterday. I literally could have stayed up all night and I wouldn't be able to have

00:28:49   played with all the stuff. If you really cared.

00:28:54   So one thing I did do though is I did install the Big Sur

00:29:01   developer beta and the app that I played with the most is

00:29:05   messages and I will say honestly my first impression is

00:29:11   this is this is a great new version of messages and it

00:29:15   doesn't feel and again. I'm trying to be fair here and and

00:29:19   you know, take away what I know, like my thoughts on Catalyst,

00:29:24   what I know Catalyst apps were like, just look at this with fresh eyes.

00:29:28   And as somebody who uses Messages on the Mac and has ever since you guys shipped

00:29:32   it seven, eight, nine years ago, whenever that was, um,

00:29:37   this feels like Messages. It feels like a new version with new features.

00:29:41   And it also, it feels and looks like a great Mac app,

00:29:46   which, you know, zooming out to the highest level,

00:29:50   that should be the goal.

00:29:51   The goal should be,

00:29:52   - Absolutely.

00:29:53   - Let's make this framework, this set of APIs

00:29:56   for developers a great way for developers

00:29:59   to make great Mac apps.

00:30:00   And I think messages, from what I've seen,

00:30:03   first impression 24 hours in, it meets the goal.

00:30:06   This feels like a flagship catalyst.

00:30:10   - Yeah, and I just wanna say,

00:30:12   certainly all credit due not just to the Catalyst team,

00:30:16   but to the Messages app team.

00:30:19   Building a great Mac app,

00:30:20   and I know you believe this as much or more than anyone,

00:30:24   is ultimately the result of the care

00:30:26   for the craftsmanship of the developers involved, right?

00:30:29   They've got to care about the platform,

00:30:30   they've got to live and breathe the platform.

00:30:33   And so building a great Mac app

00:30:35   involves caring about the Mac and investing in the Mac.

00:30:38   And our messages team, and this year, the Maps team,

00:30:43   I mean, these people have done great work

00:30:46   and taken tremendous pride in building great apps

00:30:50   for the Mac.

00:30:50   And we want all of our developers to have the tools

00:30:55   to bring their apps to the Mac

00:30:59   and to learn to bring the passion for the craftsmanship

00:31:02   that the Mac deserves.

00:31:04   And so I just wanna say,

00:31:06   I think our team really did a great job there.

00:31:08   We're not done. This is a first beta.

00:31:09   I think it's a fantastic first beta, by the way.

00:31:11   I hope as you try all of our betas this year

00:31:15   that you feel the care that's gone into them,

00:31:20   but it's still just our first beta,

00:31:22   and we're going to be working throughout the summer,

00:31:23   of course, to continue making these great.

00:31:26   - So in other words, beta still means beta.

00:31:29   - Beta still means beta,

00:31:31   but I'm very happy with what the team's been able

00:31:36   to achieve this year in this first beta?

00:31:38   - Well, I don't know if you noticed,

00:31:39   I know you guys don't really pay attention to the rumors

00:31:43   because you don't need to,

00:31:45   but there was a rumor several weeks ago

00:31:48   that the new version of Messages

00:31:51   was going to be built using Catalyst.

00:31:54   And I don't try to go in, I was like,

00:31:56   "Hey, I can wait, I'll find out what we're gonna find out."

00:31:59   But my thought was, I hope so,

00:32:03   because I know that Messages truly is a tier one app for you guys.

00:32:09   I know that you know it is huge for your customers, not just on the iPhone and iPad, but that

00:32:16   Messages from Mac is as big as it gets for your customers.

00:32:22   And I also know that you guys use it internally.

00:32:25   It is an important tool for you guys.

00:32:28   Absolutely.

00:32:29   Yeah.

00:32:30   No.

00:32:31   We care about it very much.

00:32:33   All right.

00:32:35   So here's my next question on that front.

00:32:39   Historically speaking, when there was the one of the big transitions in Apple history

00:32:43   was the transition from the classic Mac OS to Mac OS X.

00:32:47   And that was a software transition, not a hardware transition.

00:32:52   But part of that was there were classic carbon APIs, and then there were the new Cocoa APIs.

00:33:01   And the message to developers from Apple was relatively simple.

00:33:07   Not to spend this show on history, but carbon, legacy compatibility, move your existing apps forward,

00:33:17   cocoa, the way to go with new stuff.

00:33:20   With the way things are right now, I'm not sure that the message is quite so clear about where do you go,

00:33:31   what's the best way to build new stuff right now with Catalyst,

00:33:36   with Swift UI, and with just the classic App Kit APIs

00:33:44   not being the opposite of deprecated,

00:33:48   still being as robustly supported as ever?

00:33:51   Like, what is the clarity on what should a developer

00:33:55   who wants to make a great new Mac app

00:33:57   or a great new part of an existing Mac app,

00:34:01   what is the message on which set of those

00:34:05   they should be looking at?

00:34:07   - Yeah, no, I think that's a great question.

00:34:09   The world is pretty significantly different

00:34:13   than it was in that first transition.

00:34:16   The depth of the app ecosystem is vast right now,

00:34:21   and many apps have tremendous investments

00:34:25   in technologies, in Objective-C code bases,

00:34:30   in code bases that make deep use of AppKit, UIKit.

00:34:35   Each developer has a different investment there.

00:34:39   We certainly wanna give all of those developers

00:34:43   a great path forward.

00:34:44   So the answer of what's the right next step

00:34:46   for you as a developer is really gonna depend

00:34:49   on where you're starting.

00:34:51   If you've got a large application

00:34:53   that's already very deep in AppKit,

00:34:57   that's a fantastic foundation on which to continue to build.

00:35:00   If you're someone who's invested deeply in a UI kit app

00:35:04   and you're thinking, hey, I wanna bring that to the Mac,

00:35:06   I wouldn't throw that away and start over.

00:35:08   I'd build on that app with Catalyst

00:35:09   and make a great Mac app.

00:35:12   If I were a kid coming out of college right now

00:35:16   and thinking about building my first app

00:35:18   and wondering what tools I should use

00:35:21   to be most productive, I would absolutely pick up Swift

00:35:25   and SwiftUI.

00:35:26   I would build that app with the native version of,

00:35:31   with SwiftUI on AppKit if I were on building for Mac

00:35:36   and I would build it on SwiftUI for UIKit on iPad and iOS.

00:35:41   So, but you have tremendous flexibility there.

00:35:45   And actually, if you have had a chance to watch

00:35:49   some of the so-to and so forth.

00:35:51   We've even made cross-platform app development

00:35:54   with SwiftUI easier than ever.

00:35:58   You can just create a project template that says,

00:35:59   "I want this app to be cross-platform

00:36:02   "with the following platforms,"

00:36:03   and it'll make it really easy to pick what code is shared,

00:36:06   which code is Mac-specific, et cetera.

00:36:08   It'll use the AppKit idiom on Mac of SwiftUI

00:36:13   and the UIKit idiom on iOS.

00:36:16   Super easy, incredibly productive.

00:36:19   So all of these options are available.

00:36:23   And I think the right starting point just depends

00:36:25   on where you're starting from.

00:36:27   - So you don't feel that it is a duplication.

00:36:32   You feel that it's almost more like a broadening of,

00:36:36   it's where developers are coming from

00:36:39   and it's sort of giving them more to choose from,

00:36:43   but without overlapping?

00:36:44   - Yeah, I do.

00:36:47   Now, we of course are finding opportunities

00:36:50   to reuse technologies in the right place.

00:36:54   So, Swift UI on, when you bring up the color picker,

00:36:59   if you're on UI kit, you get a particular UI picker

00:37:04   that's for iPad and iPhone.

00:37:09   If you're on the Mac, you get the rich app kit color picker.

00:37:12   So you get the right one for the platform you're on

00:37:14   with all the fidelity and what users expect

00:37:16   on those platforms.

00:37:17   And that's not duplication,

00:37:19   that's tailoring to the environment.

00:37:22   - Yeah.

00:37:23   All right, let's go to the single most important question

00:37:28   about macOS Big Sur, and that's the version number.

00:37:33   (laughing)

00:37:37   - Turning it up to 11.

00:37:41   It was time.

00:37:42   It was time.

00:37:46   There are, you know, we certainly had a lot of internal discussion on the right moment

00:37:52   and we felt with some of the way in which this operating system is enabling the next

00:38:01   phase for the Mac in terms of supporting Apple Silicon, that was a momentous occasion and

00:38:07   we felt that some of the deep infrastructural changes actually that have happened to enable

00:38:12   that transition are also pretty fundamental. And so, it was the right moment for that symbolic move

00:38:20   to 11. We feel it's well-deserved.

00:38:24   It's certainly has been, absolutely.

00:38:29   It is. Is it funny? I don't even know if it's funny. Is it ironic? I get mixed up which word

00:38:39   it is. But it seems… I'm not even saying that it's wrong to say, "Let's move

00:38:44   the big version number. It's time." I'm glad somebody other than me did the obvious

00:38:50   thing of, "Maybe it's time to turn it to 11." But we're left in the funny situation

00:38:57   where iOS and iPadOS are at 14 and Mac is at 11.

00:39:03   We had that discussion as well.

00:39:05   You are insightful.

00:39:06   Do we take the Mac straight to 100 or something?

00:39:10   Like, what is the next number?

00:39:11   I don't know.

00:39:12   It was a tough call, very tough call.

00:39:15   I think it works.

00:39:17   We think it's going to work out, though, in the end.

00:39:20   We're going to make it through this together.

00:39:23   If I wanted to go back to my old schtick where I anthropomorphized parts of the software,

00:39:29   It would be funny to somehow paint Mac OS as being vainglorious and lying about its

00:39:37   age.

00:39:38   14, oh, I'm only 11.

00:39:44   Oh, that's awesome, John.

00:39:47   Nice.

00:39:48   I do want to talk about the new UI.

00:39:53   Yeah.

00:39:54   I have to say, overall, you say lots of transparency. I get a little worried, but again, I have spent some time with it in the last 24 hours, and I like it. It feels usable.

00:40:10   And my concern with, well, but it's pretty simple, where the UI metaphors on iOS and

00:40:20   iPadOS and certainly on a watch don't involve layers of windows on top of each other.

00:40:27   And so you can do things that have transparent effects and you don't have to worry about

00:40:32   a whole stack of stuff.

00:40:34   the single, to me, most defining characteristic of what is the difference at a very broad level between using a Mac and using an iPad,

00:40:44   is that you have Windows and they are stacked on, they can be stacked on top of each other.

00:40:50   You pull down a menu from the menu bar, it goes over content.

00:40:54   In practice, one day in, it all seems to be much more, or much less...

00:41:02   It's more readable than I would have, than I was worried.

00:41:08   Right. Yeah, I've certainly been living on it for quite a while now, and I love it.

00:41:15   it. You know, I know understandably our Mac users are very attached to the interface they

00:41:25   use all day long. And it's amazing what feels natural and right so often is simply a function

00:41:32   of what you're used to. You know, in the first moment you see something that's different and you

00:41:37   not quite sure about it, especially something you're so attached to as the Mac. And so it's

00:41:41   It's inevitable when we release a new design that some people are going to have strong

00:41:47   feelings in all directions.

00:41:49   I can just say that I've been living on it for quite a while now.

00:41:53   I love it.

00:41:54   I think it really, to me, it's become, has that feeling of being naturally Mac and inevitable

00:42:03   in a way and yet being new.

00:42:05   And now when I go back to my other systems,

00:42:07   they just feel a little bit yesterday.

00:42:11   I think many, many of our users are

00:42:14   going to come to that conclusion themselves

00:42:16   after about a week of just enjoying it.

00:42:18   So I love it.

00:42:20   I think Alan and team did some fantastic design work.

00:42:24   And many of the conventions of the UI

00:42:28   have been making things rounder, for instance,

00:42:33   making selections round.

00:42:35   Round is really natural organically in the world.

00:42:38   Go look for perfectly rectilinear surfaces.

00:42:41   They're all like man-made and industrial.

00:42:43   Otherwise, they don't exist in nature almost.

00:42:47   But they're more expensive to do computationally.

00:42:51   And you need high resolution displays

00:42:52   to make curves look great.

00:42:54   Well, we now have the computation.

00:42:56   We now have the great displays.

00:42:58   So I love that we're able to build an interface that

00:43:01   just looks so clean and so natural throughout. So I'm obviously a fan and I'm glad to hear

00:43:10   that you're enjoying it as well.

00:43:11   Yeah, and of course you'd be in favor of more rounding, says the guy in a perfectly circular

00:43:17   building right now.

00:43:21   Maybe it's running off on us.

00:43:25   But I do agree because, you know, the basic shape, you know, you're in mail and you select

00:43:30   message and the basic idea is, well, it's a rectangular selection, but rounding it off,

00:43:38   it does it gives it a bit of an organic feel.

00:43:40   And honestly, I mean, just to be obvious, that hearkens back to 1984 where the original

00:43:48   Macintosh had the corners slightly rounded off and it gave it a slightly more organic

00:43:55   feel.

00:43:56   OK button, the classic OK and cancel buttons from the original Mac in 1984, they weren't

00:44:03   rectangles. They were round-recs.

00:44:06   That's right.

00:44:07   Well, and translucency goes back to Mac OS X when we were doing that, and it's a natural

00:44:14   thing for the Mac, and I agree with Craig. I think what Alan and team have done, and

00:44:18   certainly with Craig and his team's help, is create something that's so fresh, yet

00:44:22   yet so instantly familiar to all of us who are Mac lovers. I love it as well. I think they've done

00:44:28   a great job. I think that the wow factor is definitely there, right? And that's the dance,

00:44:36   that's the thing where Apple, to take it to the Apple level, is that to really call this a success,

00:44:44   It has to be both a very effective interface for work as a tool.

00:44:51   That's fundamentally what the Mac is, but it also has to look awesome.

00:44:56   That's the standard.

00:44:58   And I think that the fear may be from people who are more afraid that you guys are worried about,

00:45:06   let's just make it look cool and let it be a practical work user interface fall secondarily.

00:45:15   But you guys, you know, I believe it. I know that you guys say that on the show,

00:45:18   but I happen to know you guys do. You guys live on these betas.

00:45:21   Right? Absolutely. And so do all of our engineers, you know, and they are the most passionate and

00:45:32   an outspoken group internally if they're not feeling great about something. So we put these

00:45:38   designs through the ringer for sure.

00:45:40   All right. And starting next month, we'll welcome millions of our friends to join these

00:45:45   bays as well.

00:45:46   Yes, to join us. That's right.

00:45:47   All right. Let's move on to Apple Silicon for Mac, which is truly a—it is. It's

00:45:57   and it is it goes up there with the the transition to Intel with the software transition to Mac OS 10 and

00:46:05   the original hardware transition to PowerPC I

00:46:09   Know and I'm not going to sit here and ask you well tell me all the details about the actual hardware

00:46:17   That's going to be built using Apple silicon

00:46:20   I know that that's this is the not that it's outside your comfort zone, but that it's not so usual that you guys

00:46:27   do a sort of half-step introduction where here's the first step this week

00:46:32   we're going to tell all of our developers and the world about this

00:46:37   transition that's happening at the end of this year next year and you know can't

00:46:44   wait to show you what the hardware is but we want developers to get started on

00:46:48   it now but because it's a half step you you've got this situation where people

00:46:53   can are going to inevitably judge the hardware based on the dev kit hardware that you're

00:47:01   releasing starting yesterday actually to developers.

00:47:06   We tried to make it super clear yesterday was not a consumer product launch.

00:47:12   It was just as you said it was aimed squarely at developers to explain to them and the world

00:47:17   why we were going to do what we were going to do having Tim and Johnny explain the best

00:47:23   benefits to Apple Silicon, in order to get developers to see the value of that to both

00:47:29   the Mac and then doing the work for their apps, we're not anywhere close, obviously,

00:47:36   to doing the consumer level introduction, which will be an entirely different sort of

00:47:42   thing.

00:47:43   So I don't really look at it as a half step.

00:47:44   They're just two different steps, right?

00:47:46   And yesterday was really all about developers.

00:47:49   Right.

00:47:50   You're certainly right that those of us who do know about what's coming are very

00:47:56   excited.

00:47:57   But you can imagine Apple would not go down a path like this without feeling like there

00:48:06   were tremendous, that it was a tremendous step for the Mac in the future and with all

00:48:11   the understanding of what it would bring and all the excitement about what it could bring.

00:48:14   So we are excited to tell the full story and the fullness of time.

00:48:19   But right now, I think, hopefully, developers know enough to both be excited and compelled

00:48:26   to get on board and do their part, but there'll be lots of other exciting announcements to

00:48:34   come.

00:48:36   But even that DTK, Developer Transition Kit hardware, which is running on an existing

00:48:44   iPad chip that we don't intend to put in a Mac in the future, it's just there for this

00:48:49   transition. I think people will find the Mac runs awfully nice on that system. It's not

00:48:54   a basis on which to judge future Macs, of course, but it gives you a sense of what our

00:49:02   silicon team can do when they're not even trying. And they're going to be trying.

00:49:08   It's also worth adding, John, and we are also trying to get people used to the idea that

00:49:12   Intel systems are going to be around for a long time. We're going to continue releasing

00:49:16   versions of macOS for years to come to support our Intel-based Macs. And we still, as Tim

00:49:22   said, we still got some Intel-based Macs to introduce, right, that we're super proud

00:49:27   of. And this transition's going to take a couple years. So this isn't like we flip

00:49:32   a switch someday and it's all one and it's all the other. You know how these things are,

00:49:36   they're transitions.

00:49:37   Right. Well, and I think it's—

00:49:38   Our current Macs are fantastic. And people ask me all the time, is it a good time to

00:49:44   to buy a Mac. Well, the obvious answer is it's always a good time to buy a Mac. If

00:49:48   you want a Mac, do not hold back. You should buy a Mac. But of course, it's a great time

00:49:52   to buy a Mac, and our Macs have never been better. They're awesome, and they're going

00:49:56   to continue to be awesome for years to come.

00:49:59   And just even emphasize more on that point, I put my money where my mouth is. I bought

00:50:02   my daughter, who's off to college in the fall, a 16-inch MacBook Pro yesterday.

00:50:07   Nice.

00:50:08   So, yeah, she scored big time. So, I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

00:50:13   My daughter is not watching this.

00:50:17   You get an employee discount though, Josh, right?

00:50:20   There might have been a little bit of a discount, but it's not as much as it should be if whoever

00:50:23   owns the discounts is listening.

00:50:28   I think one of the interesting things is that you guys, as a company, there's a lot of continuity

00:50:37   a long stretch of time. And the transition from PowerPC to Intel was 15 years ago. That

00:50:44   was announced at WWDC in 2005. There are a lot of parallels here. We can even talk about

00:50:50   it. You're even calling the emulation layer. I mean, emulation might be the wrong technical

00:50:54   word. Sorry, Craig. But the compatibility layer is Rosetta 2. You guys even talked about the

00:51:02   The fact that it was so successful before and truly, and I know a lot of times with

00:51:07   software you're like, "Well, it's a success if the user doesn't even notice."

00:51:11   But that is literally the definition of technology like Rosetta is you double click an app and

00:51:16   it opens and it's familiar and the app looks and does what you expect it to do and you

00:51:22   have no idea that at a computer science level something as complicated as an app that was

00:51:27   compiled for Intel is running on Apple Silicon, which is an entirely different instruction set.

00:51:35   But one of the things that I think is true from the previous transition is it wasn't like

00:51:39   late-stage buyers of Power Macs and PowerBooks felt burned once the transition happened.

00:51:46   It's, you know, they had years of support, too, and it wasn't like they felt left out of the

00:51:54   Mac platform, it was a very smooth transition that if you bought one of the first Intel

00:52:01   Macs, you had a great system, but if you bought one of the last PowerPC Macs, you also had

00:52:06   a great system and it had years to come.

00:52:08   I will ask, I have to, how many years are years to come for support for Intel Macs and

00:52:15   Mac OS?

00:52:16   years years i believe the words we used

00:52:20   obviously we got a lot of uh customers on intel based systems so you know we're pretty good at

00:52:29   taking care of our customers you know that yeah well all right i i i do i do believe that but

00:52:33   let me let me talk on this because i think it ties into the both it big sur mac os big sur

00:52:40   is one operating system that will run on, it will run on all of the Macs that are out today. Intel

00:52:50   Macs that Tim even mentioned are still in the pipeline to come out that haven't been announced

00:52:55   yet. And it will be the current version of Mac OS X once these new Macs based on Apple Silicon

00:53:04   come out. There's no real reason for users to be worried that there's a significant

00:53:12   difference in the Big Sur experience between the two platforms.

00:53:17   Correct. They're going to look and feel the same on both.

00:53:20   Because I know, and here's where I'm going, is I've seen in day one that there has been some,

00:53:28   to me, misreading the message, but some coverage along the lines of

00:53:34   Apple is moving the Mac to its own silicon to further lock in, insert either developers or users

00:53:45   or both, users and developers, that this is to increase lock-in. And I just have to ask,

00:53:53   what, you know, I don't see it because I've seen these announcements and I don't see

00:53:57   where that's coming from in terms of any aspect that was announced.

00:54:00   I think those guys are being total tools, honestly. I mean, I don't know where you'd even

00:54:07   begin to come up with that theory. Not at all. These Macs are Macs. The future

00:54:13   Apple Silicon based Macs are Macs, the way they install software. I mean, I had people coming up

00:54:19   and asking me like, "Can you still launch Terminal?" Like, yes, you can. Like, I mean,

00:54:24   these are Macs. We're not changing any of this. Right, and it ties back to my question from

00:54:32   earlier, which is that people either they have the suspicion or it's just the fear

00:54:37   that you guys don't like the Mac and now here's your excuse. All of a sudden it's exactly like

00:54:44   an iPad and you know there is no terminal app on iPad and I think appropriately you know it's

00:54:52   I'm not even putting it up as a criticism.

00:54:54   It's just the, it's a perfect example though,

00:54:57   to put your finger on as to the sort of thing

00:55:00   that is different about what you might want to do

00:55:02   on an iPad and what you, a lot of people,

00:55:04   especially people who listen to my show,

00:55:07   really find, you know, it's part of their work on the Mac,

00:55:10   is opening up a terminal and doing all sorts

00:55:12   of crazy stuff in a terminal.

00:55:14   - Yeah, look, I want people to absolutely look at these,

00:55:20   look at these Apple Silicon based Macs and judge us by our deeds.

00:55:26   I just don't know, I don't even know what we need to do at this point to have people

00:55:29   understand how much we are committed to making Macs Macs and keeping the Macs.

00:55:38   We go to tremendous efforts actually to continue to keep that true.

00:55:44   I mean, to find ways to advance security in an environment that we believe, like the Mac,

00:55:52   should be open to hobbyist experimentation and things.

00:55:55   These are things we put, you know, the fact that we have these different modes to explicitly

00:56:00   turn off system integrity protection, right?

00:56:03   Why did we do that?

00:56:04   We didn't have to.

00:56:05   We did it because we want Mac users who want to do hobbyist things to have that kind of

00:56:09   power.

00:56:10   I mean, we continue to demonstrate over and over how we feel about this.

00:56:14   So, you know, speculation to the contrary, I just think is not founded in the evidence.

00:56:20   And I think we'll put another very clear data point up on the board when people look in

00:56:24   greater detail at these systems.

00:56:27   So just one, just quick, Mac App Store, still going to be just as great as ever for Macs

00:56:33   based on Apple Silicon, but it's not the only way to get apps on.

00:56:39   Of course not.

00:56:40   You can distribute apps exactly the way you do today on the Mac.

00:56:45   And of course, we talked explicitly about how you can build your apps as universal and distribute a single binary

00:56:51   that works both on Intel-based Macs and Apple Silicon-based Macs.

00:56:55   You can distribute them in exactly the same way that you, all the same set of ways you do today on the Mac.

00:57:02   Right. And which is great. And again, that gets to the, you don't have to worry about it.

00:57:06   and I can have the same copy of an app on my brand new Mac based on Apple Silicon,

00:57:12   and my son, who, you know, I'm going to stick with my old Mac, can have the same copy of the Mac,

00:57:17   you double click it, it's the same thing because it's a universal binary, it has the Intel built-in,

00:57:22   it has the native Apple Silicon compiled code built-in, you don't have to worry about it.

00:57:26   So let's move on. So as we transition to iPhone and iPad, there's a natural transition point here,

00:57:33   which is that the one very cool sounding feature that is different about, will be different about

00:57:42   Macs running on Apple Silicon is that they will be able to run iPhone and iPad apps, just run them.

00:57:51   You just, it's not like Catalyst where there's a transition element, you just get a copy of it,

00:57:57   you double click it, it launches and you can use it. What is the thinking there in terms of

00:58:02   which type of apps this is useful for?

00:58:04   - Yeah, I think there's some apps

00:58:09   where I think it absolutely makes sense

00:58:12   for the user and the developer

00:58:14   to invest in tailoring an app distinctly for the Mac

00:58:18   and investing in a catalyst version of the app.

00:58:22   And then there are cases where you may have a simple game

00:58:27   say that, you know, honestly today

00:58:29   those often have full screen experiences,

00:58:32   simple controls, they work just fantastic out of the box.

00:58:36   There's no reason for the developer necessarily

00:58:38   to have to do any work to adapt the app

00:58:41   in order to provide a great out of the box experience.

00:58:44   And they can get that directly.

00:58:45   Now, by the way, I think developers will want to,

00:58:50   in many cases, make that effort

00:58:53   to recompile their app using Catalyst

00:58:55   so that they can reach all Macs out there.

00:58:58   because the install base of Macs that are Intel based,

00:59:01   don't have this ability to run iOS and iPad apps directly

00:59:06   because they don't have the same instruction set.

00:59:09   So if you build your app universal with catalyst,

00:59:12   everybody can run it, all Macs can run it.

00:59:15   But the Apple Silicon based Macs have the unique capability

00:59:20   to run apps that the developer didn't even ever take

00:59:23   that step to rebuild them at all.

00:59:25   They uploaded them to the iOS app store originally

00:59:30   and didn't choose to opt them out

00:59:33   of being available on the Mac.

00:59:35   Mac users can download and run them.

00:59:37   And I know there are lots of little apps

00:59:39   where the developer maybe just never bothered

00:59:42   to build a Mac app where I'd much rather use that app

00:59:45   than use their website

00:59:46   or have total lack of support altogether.

00:59:49   And so I think there's gonna be a really welcome feature

00:59:52   for lots of users around, you know,

00:59:54   there's millions of apps on the on the App Store, so it's fantastic to have access to them.

00:59:58   Is this going to be an opt-in system where, let's say, I have an app, it's only an iPhone app,

01:00:04   will I, as submitting it through to the App Store, is it like a, I would like to make this app

01:00:12   available to Mac users too, but I could also not check that box and keep it from being available?

01:00:18   Because maybe I just know it's no good. That's right. There's literally a checkbox

01:00:23   when you go through the upload of an app or the signing of the

01:00:28   terms and conditions, the new terms and conditions for the app store to

01:00:32   decide for your apps which of them you'd like to make available for the Mac and

01:00:36   which ones you wouldn't.

01:00:38   And you know, some developers may say, "Hey, based on the nature of my app,

01:00:41   I don't think it makes sense on the Mac, I don't want it there."

01:00:44   Maybe they already have a Mac app that they provide separately and they're

01:00:48   saying, "No, that's the version I want my Mac users to use."

01:00:51   They have that. That's all in their control.

01:00:53   Yeah. Let's get real nerdy a little bit.

01:00:57   All right.

01:00:58   And one of the things that I know is really important to developers

01:01:02   in the last few years, maybe more than ever, are...

01:01:06   I'm going to broadly call it virtualization,

01:01:08   but I know you guys even mentioned it in the keynote,

01:01:10   but technologies like Docker,

01:01:14   and without teaching a developer class on what that means,

01:01:17   but basically it's a way to set up a development environment

01:01:19   on your local system as a developer, you have a copy of what's going to be pushed to the cloud,

01:01:26   you commit your changes, then it goes up to the cloud and a virtual version of what you'd been

01:01:31   testing on your machine is now running in the cloud. And I think there was some concern over

01:01:35   this hardware transition that, you know, if you're running Intel hardware on your Mac and Intel

01:01:41   hardware in your cloud environment, you're okay. What's the story? Like, you guys are aware of

01:01:49   that developers are using this on Macs, right?

01:01:52   - Of course, of course.

01:01:53   And the fact we mentioned virtualization in the keynote

01:01:58   was partly a nod to, we think,

01:02:00   people's interest in the topic.

01:02:02   So we have created a new version

01:02:06   of our virtualization framework

01:02:07   that makes it even easier to do virtualization

01:02:12   on all Macs, including these new Macs.

01:02:16   Now, the virtualization, when you are running on ARM, is still running a ARM-based version

01:02:23   of Linux, say.

01:02:25   So it's not that you are virtualizing x86 operating systems on top of Apple Silicon.

01:02:34   Now usually things like Linux, they're already very cross-platform, and so there are full

01:02:40   ARM distributions of those, and they run great on Apple Silicon.

01:02:46   So that's really the story there.

01:02:49   And increasingly, so you could build your container

01:02:54   for ARM, test it locally on your Mac.

01:02:59   If depending on what cloud you're using,

01:03:01   Amazon increasingly has ARM-based deployments in the cloud.

01:03:05   So you could deploy your container in the cloud as ARM

01:03:08   or you could recompile it and distribute it

01:03:12   or rather deploy it as Intel.

01:03:15   So a lot of flexibility to run a lot of different operating systems virtualized on these new Macs.

01:03:21   All right, speaking of other operating systems and not virtualized, one phrase that I did not hear in the keynote was boot camp.

01:03:29   And yeah, that's right. So actually direct booting.

01:03:35   I mean, of course, we couldn't direct boot those machines to an x86 version of Windows, which is what today's boot camp does.

01:03:43   But we're not direct booting an alternate operating system.

01:03:48   It's purely virtualization is the root.

01:03:52   But these hypervisors can be very efficient.

01:03:55   So the need to direct boot

01:03:57   shouldn't really be the concern, I think.

01:03:59   - Okay.

01:04:00   But you guys are aware that you're on it.

01:04:02   You've got a story.

01:04:03   - We've heard about it for sure.

01:04:04   (both laughing)

01:04:08   - All right, I wanna move on to iPad.

01:04:10   And I, so it's, the parent name for the feature, I think is Scribble, but it's, it's, it is, to me, I think Apple Pencil has been a huge success.

01:04:24   I love Apple Pencil.

01:04:26   I really, really do.

01:04:27   But I really, it's really, this is one of those great moments in a keynote where it's like, I didn't even really complain about this, but it's like you guys were reading my mind where it's like a text message comes in.

01:04:40   I've got my pencil in my hand already.

01:04:42   I just want to like write the answer.

01:04:45   And that's the story, right?

01:04:49   - Yep, absolutely.

01:04:51   Yeah, I mean, we're not trying to steal away

01:04:53   from the keyboard as a efficient way to enter text,

01:04:57   but there's so many moments when if you're doing

01:05:00   a pencil centric kind of thing,

01:05:01   that's the mode you're in, right?

01:05:03   That's the tool in your hand and the ability

01:05:05   to just jot something into a search field,

01:05:08   add it to a reminders list or write a reply in messages.

01:05:13   In any context where there's a normal text field

01:05:16   that would normally bring up the keyboard,

01:05:18   you can now write in your own handwriting

01:05:20   and have it converted into text.

01:05:22   It's quite liberating and totally universal.

01:05:27   So we think it's gonna be really exciting.

01:05:29   We've also made big improvements to the way

01:05:33   that you take notes, 'cause one of the most popular things

01:05:36   we see people doing with pencils, of course,

01:05:38   is taking notes, and I think that's partly because you can throw in a quick conceptual

01:05:43   diagram right around the text you're drawing, just the spatial way of organizing things

01:05:49   is really helpful with a pencil.

01:05:53   But in the past, and I've been a heavy note taker in the past as well, there are ways

01:05:59   in which text, when it just behaves like ink, just you miss certain things from typing.

01:06:05   You just want to say like, could I just open up a space here

01:06:07   to write another word in?

01:06:10   Or could I select some text and not have it like grab

01:06:14   one line of the diagram that happens to be nearby?

01:06:17   And so we've really been able to take advantage

01:06:20   of machine learning based perception

01:06:24   in a way to make something just work the way you'd like

01:06:27   and have it understand like, this is text,

01:06:30   these are lines of text.

01:06:32   So when it comes time to make a selection,

01:06:35   move something around.

01:06:36   It completely understands kind of what you've done.

01:06:39   And so in a very natural way, it just does what you want.

01:06:42   You can select the text, and it'll select just the text

01:06:44   and not the graphics.

01:06:45   If you want to convert that text into typed text

01:06:49   to insert in another document, it can do that automatically.

01:06:53   I think it's just a really great way

01:06:56   to make Pencil just that much more expressive and useful.

01:07:01   Jaws, it feels to me like with this emphasis on the pencil that this is a very iPad as what iPad

01:07:12   does best sort of advance of the state of the art for the iPad user experience. I mean, can you

01:07:19   speak to that? Is it? Yeah, well, I'd even start even more basic than that. You know, we look at

01:07:24   the iPad as incredibly and fully functional out of the box without adding anything to it. You know,

01:07:31   it's a multi-touch system that relies on your fingers and you can be happy as can be.

01:07:38   But yet we've given you some ways to extend it. We've given you the ability to put a

01:07:41   hard keyboard on it and as you know we introduced the Magic Keyboard a short while ago and people

01:07:46   love it. The way it allows your iPad Pro to float above the keyboard and people love that.

01:07:52   But of course the pencil experience as Craig said we're extremely bullish on. We have

01:07:57   a pencil experience that's way beyond what anybody else can do on their tablets. It's

01:08:03   incredible. It just feels so real. I mean, you're a user of it. If you're not a user

01:08:08   of it, I guess you wouldn't know what we're talking about. But it doesn't feel like you're

01:08:11   doing some sort of digital thing. It just feels like a real pencil that you're drawing

01:08:17   on the screen. And what Craig and his team have done here is allow us to extend that

01:08:22   experience to, as we said, to never have to put it down if we're in that mode.

01:08:26   It's that magical kind of thing you expect from Apple, and I think they really delivered.

01:08:33   You guys, I mean, the handwriting recognition is something that Apple has a long history with,

01:08:40   as does the whole industry. I mean, it's sort of been, it is, you know, it's in the broad sense of

01:08:48   artificial intelligence, can you read a person's handwriting is, you know, it's pretty, you know,

01:08:54   pretty standard test along those lines. And it's proven over the years to be tricky. This,

01:08:59   it sounds like you guys have mentioned machine learning in the context of handwriting recognition

01:09:03   Yeah.

01:09:04   multiple times. I mean, it seems like that might be the, not to overuse the term, but the Rosetta

01:09:11   Stone of unlocking this ability for computers to actually understand our handwriting. And can you

01:09:18   speak to just how bad your handwriting can be and you still might expect it to work?

01:09:25   Well, you may remember Toby's demo last year at WWDC, which I think was evidence that

01:09:31   if it can understand that handwriting, it can understand anybody's. We love you, Toby.

01:09:38   Yeah, we think it can generally read your handwriting better than most other humans

01:09:42   can, which of course is, depending on the handwriting, if it's Toby's, that's a

01:09:50   small number of humans.

01:09:53   Machine learning has been a huge leap for many perceptual tasks, and handwriting is

01:10:00   absolutely one of them.

01:10:02   And you think of the number of ways that people do their stroke orders, how they go back and

01:10:07   sort of fix things up and insert things.

01:10:09   I mean, it's just an incredibly messy and diverse way that people actually create their

01:10:15   text.

01:10:16   And so it turns out that's the kind of task that machine learning has been so well adapted

01:10:20   to.

01:10:21   And so we've done tons of data gathering around the world, many, many different scripts, all

01:10:26   kinds of different handwriting to pick all of that up.

01:10:30   And our accuracy rates have just been way better than we could achieve with other techniques

01:10:36   and it continues to get better.

01:10:40   And so I feel like we've crossed a line into a place where you're not fighting it anymore,

01:10:46   it's just you're kind of surprised that it keeps writing things that you can't read anymore

01:10:51   that you wrote.

01:10:53   So it's good.

01:10:57   Moving on to iOS 14, which is primarily, you know, it's iPhone, right?

01:11:06   The high-level takeaway I took from yesterday's announcements for iOS 14 is that a lot of

01:11:13   it, it's really convenience, convenience, convenience.

01:11:17   And it's a lot of features, and some of them are related to each other, and some of them

01:11:22   are not really related to each other, but to me they feel like they're about the quick hit.

01:11:28   I take my phone out of my pocket and do something, and then I'm in, I'm out, and then it's back in my

01:11:36   pocket, and I'm on my way. The app clips, I mean, I don't see how you could phrase it any differently

01:11:44   for that. For app clips, that seems to be the whole point of app clips is, here's the thing that you

01:11:49   want to have some software to do a thing. Maybe it's to

01:11:53   unlock a zip car or something like that. But to go from

01:12:00   taking your phone out of your pocket to doing it or paying

01:12:03   your parking ticket in the garage or something like that,

01:12:06   you need a little bit of software running on your phone

01:12:08   and it's well, what do you do? You go to the app store and you

01:12:12   search for it and then you install, you know, all of a

01:12:15   sudden, it's like I should just use my credit card. Whereas if

01:12:17   you can make you know what if I just wave my phone at this beacon it opens up on my screen I tap a

01:12:24   button I've already got my apple pay I'm on my way you know the the gate lifts I'm out of the

01:12:30   parking garage I think you nailed it I mean they're these experiences that you they they are so

01:12:42   but so, so brief and so diverse, right?

01:12:46   You're going to interact with that EV charging thing here,

01:12:49   and you're going to go order from the taco truck there,

01:12:52   and it's going to be a different one the next time.

01:12:55   And you don't want to collect a bunch

01:12:57   of these apps necessarily.

01:12:58   You don't want to find them.

01:12:59   You don't have to want to wait to download them.

01:13:01   You don't want to build an account when you sign into them.

01:13:05   You don't want to manage them on your home screen.

01:13:07   This is all this friction where there's this value

01:13:09   to be had there,

01:13:09   all of that friction would stand in the way

01:13:12   of what could be just an awesome way to use your phone.

01:13:15   And so with App Clips, we really focused

01:13:17   on how do you take all that friction away

01:13:19   and just make discovery super easy.

01:13:22   You know, you can see an App Clip code

01:13:24   that's visually identifiable, you know that's there,

01:13:26   you put your phone up to it,

01:13:27   and pretty much instantly you're launched

01:13:29   into the app experience,

01:13:30   and then the app experience itself is just streamlined,

01:13:34   and we avoid a lot of the overhead of creating,

01:13:37   developers don't need to force you to create an account

01:13:39   or they don't need to make you sign up for payment

01:13:41   and give you a credit card

01:13:42   'cause we already have Apple Pay and signing with Apple,

01:13:45   which they can take advantage of

01:13:46   to streamline those experiences.

01:13:47   And now you're just like,

01:13:48   wow, that was just the absolutely fastest way

01:13:51   to get this thing done.

01:13:53   And so I think we're gonna see apps finding their way

01:13:57   into our lives in different ways where in the past,

01:14:00   it just, the friction and the diversity of those tasks

01:14:04   was such that it wasn't there.

01:14:06   And now I think it's gonna open up

01:14:07   all kinds of opportunities.

01:14:09   So I think developers are going to have a whole new set of opportunities to go after

01:14:13   now with app clips.

01:14:14   And John, I think you're really onto something, because you think about a device like the

01:14:18   iPhone that we use throughout the day, every day of our life.

01:14:22   I mean, we use it all the time, and there's so much in here that really is about convenience,

01:14:26   whether it's the stuff we've learned from our decades of doing widgets back to the early

01:14:31   days of Mac OS X to what we've learned on Watch to be able to get that information really

01:14:36   quickly and use the machine learning again on a smart stack, you know, to get you the

01:14:40   information you need at the moment you need it without you having to work to get it. The

01:14:44   app library, which makes it super easy now to get to the apps that you use without having

01:14:50   to try to remember where on my nine pages of apps do I have that one. You know, those

01:14:56   are just examples. I think you're right. I mean, it's just so convenient and it's just

01:14:59   I've been on this for a while. It is by far my favorite version of iOS, which I guess

01:15:05   make sense. But I absolutely adore it. I absolutely adore it.

01:15:08   To get better every year.

01:15:09   It seems like it does. Nice work, Craig.

01:15:12   Glad to move forward once again. I think you identified the theme very, very well.

01:15:22   Well, I think one of the hallmarks of Apple platforms all the way back to the outset is

01:15:29   that it encourages it's this okay out of the box ease of use the least you know you don't have to

01:15:36   be an expert you don't have to be a nerd you you can figure it you know you don't have to read a

01:15:41   manual you should be able to turn it on and figure it out but it rewards and i mean it meaning the

01:15:49   Mac, iOS, iPad, the Watch, it rewards digging deep.

01:15:56   And the reward is you get to customize, and you sort of get to be your own user interface

01:16:04   designer.

01:16:07   And the Watch has had that with complications.

01:16:11   And it seemed to me like – and I apologize to all of our friends on the Watch team who

01:16:17   it seems to have a great update this year with watchOS 7, but we're probably going to pay overall

01:16:21   short shrift to on this show. But fitness, changing the activity app to fitness, there's a huge fitness

01:16:29   message, and I know that that's super popular right here in my household. This is the most

01:16:35   popular thing about Apple Watch amongst everybody here. But the complication story is that sort of,

01:16:42   "Hey, you can just pick one of these default watch faces that, you know, just turn the watch on out

01:16:47   of the box." And Apple's done its best to make that first watch face look good and give you an

01:16:54   idea of what it can do. But if you want to sit there and play around and install some third-party

01:16:59   apps and you're into cycling and you want to have two cycling complications on this face,

01:17:04   but then you want to have this other face which is, "I'm at the end of my day and I want to relax

01:17:08   and have this quiet face without a lot of information on it, you get rewarded by being able to design it.

01:17:13   And it seems to me like that's what the widget story on the home screen for iPhone is with iOS 14.

01:17:21   It's, you can set up a screen or two that gives you your most used apps, but also now the widgets of,

01:17:30   "This is the stuff I care about," like at a glance.

01:17:33   Absolutely. Yeah. I think the personalization opportunity,

01:17:36   the way that you can invest in making it your,

01:17:39   your own in a way that suits what you want to do. And even, uh,

01:17:43   in the same way you described with the watch faces, different pages of apps,

01:17:46   you know,

01:17:46   I've got my first page and maybe that's when I'm in this kind of state of mind

01:17:50   and I've got these widgets in with these apps. I swipe over to another page.

01:17:53   I can have different apps, different widgets based on,

01:17:56   maybe I'm in a kind of more entertainment kind of frame frame of mind.

01:18:00   You have all, all of that there. And then as Jaws mentioned,

01:18:02   We also, for that kind of out of the box smarts,

01:18:06   we have the smart stack that can automatically figure out

01:18:09   without you having to manually make that investment,

01:18:12   hey, maybe here's the thing you want at this moment.

01:18:15   And I do think widgets also offer,

01:18:18   just like complications, developers an opportunity

01:18:21   to play a more integral role in the customer's experience.

01:18:25   Like you can, as a developer, build a great widget

01:18:27   and now have a presence on their home screen

01:18:31   If you earn it, if they want it, if it's a value to them,

01:18:35   you can play an even bigger role

01:18:36   in the sort of mainstream UI experience

01:18:39   even outside your app, right on their home screen.

01:18:42   So we think this is gonna be hopefully really great

01:18:45   for them as well.

01:18:46   - So here's a question that I had about,

01:18:51   and I'm not even sure what to call it,

01:18:54   but the idea that you could have, let's say two or three

01:18:58   curated by you, first home screens on your phone,

01:19:03   and then you can have the rest of your apps,

01:19:06   which maybe today in iOS 13 is eight, nine pages of apps.

01:19:11   And I thought it was a very tacit acknowledgement of,

01:19:15   look, we know, we use iPhones too.

01:19:17   Your seventh page of apps is not as well organized

01:19:21   as your first.

01:19:21   - Right.

01:19:23   - It isn't, right?

01:19:23   - For sure.

01:19:24   - Yeah.

01:19:27   But you can literally say,

01:19:32   here's an app you use once in a while.

01:19:33   You don't wanna delete it,

01:19:35   but you only use it when you're at Disney World,

01:19:38   and you only go to Disney World every two years,

01:19:40   but you don't wanna delete it.

01:19:42   You can move that app so it's not even on a home screen.

01:19:46   It's only in your app library.

01:19:49   Is that the term? - That's right.

01:19:50   That's exactly right.

01:19:51   In fact, once you turn on a app library,

01:19:57   you could get a new phone, you could, uh, you could be living with,

01:20:00   with app library. And as you download new apps by default,

01:20:05   uh, we won't start adding new, uh,

01:20:09   homescreen pages because once you've hidden pages, you've kind of said like,

01:20:12   look, I just want these two pages.

01:20:14   We're not going to add a third when you download a new app,

01:20:17   that app's just going to appear in the recently, uh,

01:20:20   added area of the app library. And of course,

01:20:24   also in whatever category it belongs in and you're not going to accumulate a

01:20:28   bunch more pages that you need to go hide again later.

01:20:31   You just stop accumulating. But if one of those apps is like, you know,

01:20:34   I really use that all the time.

01:20:36   I want to incorporate that into my daily routine.

01:20:37   You drag it right out of the app library and plop it on one of your curated

01:20:42   pages. So you,

01:20:43   you now have the flexibility to decide when you want to elevate an app to being

01:20:47   in one of those pages you manage rather than just having it sort of pile on

01:20:52   off into infinity in what can be for some of us a bit of a garbage dump of past downloads.

01:21:03   Not that any of the apps are garbage. They're all top-notch stuff. I just want to be clear.

01:21:08   Nice. Dump of jewels.

01:21:12   Your disorganized jewelry box.

01:21:14   Yes, there you go. Much better.

01:21:18   You should be in marketing, John.

01:21:21   Nobody has ever told me that before.

01:21:26   Actually I was thinking, Jaws, I was thinking Craig is the guy who might be in the wrong

01:21:29   division here.

01:21:30   He's the guy who might want to think about –

01:21:32   No way.

01:21:33   We have given him the honorary title.

01:21:37   Of crack marketing collaborator?

01:21:38   Yeah, he is drug-fueled.

01:21:39   So that's half the battle.

01:21:43   Now we, as you can tell from WWDC keynotes, we have a great time doing those keynotes.

01:21:49   I think it shows on Craig's expression on his face, despite the fact that we drag him

01:21:53   through hours and hours of work on this.

01:21:57   But he definitely feels like part of the family.

01:21:59   Great to be part of the family.

01:22:02   Let me close this out with the catch-all category of privacy.

01:22:08   And the reason—and we can go into details, maybe we will, on certain things, but there's

01:22:14   no way—again, this is a topic that we could literally do a two-hour show just about the

01:22:18   privacy stuff. But to me, it speaks to helping people understand, Apple, what you guys are

01:22:27   doing now and what you really mean. And I really do think that to understand Apple and

01:22:34   what you guys are doing, you have to… I think it is the honest truth that you guys

01:22:39   truly care about privacy. It's not just a, "Hey, we've got our finger in the wind

01:22:47   and we can tell that the world is caring a little bit more.

01:22:51   It's more, we've been caring about this for a while

01:22:54   and we've been here and built these multiple frameworks

01:22:59   and we're ready for the world

01:23:01   to pay more attention to privacy.

01:23:03   - Yeah, I mean, this is one where it's been hilarious

01:23:09   to go through it because for a great deal of time,

01:23:13   the story was, oh, Apple,

01:23:15   They've got some bizarre privacy fetish.

01:23:18   They're going to lose out on the machine learning revolution

01:23:20   because they seem to have some weird--

01:23:22   Right.

01:23:22   You know, it's like users--

01:23:24   the story was always users don't actually care about privacy.

01:23:27   We live in a post privacy world, and what's Apple's hang up?

01:23:32   And then as soon as privacy-- as soon as the inevitable

01:23:35   happened and people started to wake up and realize,

01:23:38   like, there's some creepy things being done by some people,

01:23:43   Then it was, oh, Apple, privacy is a marketing strategy.

01:23:47   Hold on, back when it was like the anti-strategy,

01:23:50   how did it become a marketing strategy?

01:23:52   So true.

01:23:53   I don't even begin to get it.

01:23:54   But the truth is, you can go back to videos of Apple

01:24:01   from literally 35 years ago and find

01:24:05   us talking about personal computing

01:24:07   and why it's about having control of your own data

01:24:10   not being using the mainframe or minicomputer where someone else owns your data and then

01:24:15   it's yours and that box of floppies is your data.

01:24:20   That is deep in our DNA here at Apple.

01:24:23   We've cared about privacy really since the beginning of the company.

01:24:27   Those of us that weren't in the inside at the beginning of the company developed those

01:24:30   values and expectations as part of the Apple community on the outside.

01:24:34   We bring it here and we continue to attract more people like us who believe that for the

01:24:39   the future of humanity, it's an important thing that we show the way toward protecting

01:24:44   people's privacy.

01:24:45   Honestly, as excited as I am about everything else we've talked about here today, if I

01:24:51   think about 100 years from now, what good someone will look back and say, "What's

01:24:56   the most important impact Apple had?"

01:24:58   If we show the way to the world, if we have people realize that they have a right to expect

01:25:04   privacy as they deal with technology, if we help show the way to the industry to follow

01:25:10   some reasonable best practices and respecting user privacy, that will be one of those massive

01:25:17   contributions to society and mankind as a whole.

01:25:21   And so we, you know, marketing be damned, we care about it a tremendous amount.

01:25:26   And every year there's a host of opportunities and problems to be solved to continue to raise

01:25:33   the bar.

01:25:34   It's a journey.

01:25:35   It's a journey.

01:25:36   It is a journey.

01:25:37   It is, yeah.

01:25:38   You're never going to be done with it.

01:25:40   But we made a bunch of announcements this year about protections around and transparency

01:25:45   around tracking.

01:25:46   There are a bunch of other things that we didn't even have time to cover in the privacy

01:25:52   section that people are starting to learn about.

01:25:57   But everything we design these days, we consider privacy from the outset of that process.

01:26:05   It really is just how we think about products.

01:26:08   And so we're going to keep talking about it.

01:26:11   Craig's right.

01:26:12   We were doing it long before it was popular.

01:26:16   That's for sure.

01:26:17   I used to say the only people that ever really seemed to nod their heads when I would explain

01:26:20   what we're doing for privacy were the Germans.

01:26:22   They've always taken it serious.

01:26:24   else they're like yeah whatever until more recently so let me and again we

01:26:29   could get specific on several dozen things from the keynote I'm sure there

01:26:34   are actually other privacy related ones because I really do think it permeates

01:26:37   everything you guys are doing but I want to talk about one in particular which is

01:26:43   the facial recognition for people ringing a doorbell if you have a smart

01:26:48   home doorbell with a camera and it does facial recognition and your I guess your phone can tell you hey

01:26:56   Jaws is at the door because it knows

01:26:59   Jaws turn the lights off pretend you're not home, right?

01:27:03   I knew that you were doing

01:27:06   All right, well but facial recognition has been in the news and it has been in the news

01:27:16   not related to Apple specifically, but just in a broad sense that

01:27:21   people are becoming aware that this can be used as a broad technology

01:27:26   in ways that people aren't comfortable with, in ways that most people would agree are a bad idea.

01:27:31   So can you speak to me like if you have one of these

01:27:36   smart doorbells that works with HomeKit and can do this, where does the facial recognition

01:27:44   occur and how is that private?

01:27:47   Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you asked

01:27:49   'cause we didn't have time to cover that in the keynote.

01:27:53   You're right, I mean, face recognition,

01:27:55   if deployed improperly, just like audio recording,

01:28:00   if deployed pervasively and collected is surveillance,

01:28:03   right, normal video capture could either be a fun way

01:28:08   to make family movies or could be surveillance.

01:28:11   It depends how you deploy it.

01:28:12   So in our case, we keep the video analysis done locally

01:28:17   on your HomeKit resident device.

01:28:23   That could be your HomePod or your Apple TV in your house.

01:28:25   So if you have a camera, a doorbell camera

01:28:27   or another camera, it actually is securely sending

01:28:31   encrypted video over your network

01:28:34   to your Apple resident device.

01:28:37   All of the video analysis and the facial matching

01:28:41   is done locally on that device, that device is then posting

01:28:46   a notification to your phone.

01:28:48   Apple is not in the middle of that process or your data

01:28:51   at all.

01:28:52   And if you've chosen to, your video

01:28:55   can then also be securely stored by HomeKit in iCloud

01:29:02   encrypted with keys that Apple doesn't have.

01:29:04   So you can get back at those video clips

01:29:06   if you want and see them.

01:29:08   but Apple never has the, or no one else,

01:29:11   but you have access to the recorded material.

01:29:13   So we're certainly focused in just making those cameras

01:29:17   for you, that data available only to you,

01:29:19   those notifications exclusively to you and your phones,

01:29:23   all the computation done in your home.

01:29:26   - On your device.

01:29:28   - On your device.

01:29:29   - Right.

01:29:30   - That is right.

01:29:30   - And you know, and I think that that is,

01:29:33   and it gets to the story that you told from years ago,

01:29:37   that, oh, Apple isn't interested in machine learning,

01:29:40   they have a privacy fetish.

01:29:43   You guys were keenly aware of machine learning.

01:29:45   And it's interesting because if you have,

01:29:48   Jaws, help me out here.

01:29:51   How many millions of users,

01:29:54   hundreds of millions of users collectively.

01:29:56   - Over, yeah, Apple altogether, over a billion.

01:29:59   - All right, so a billion users with a B,

01:30:03   and you need machine learning to enable the next generation of features

01:30:09   and the current generation of features,

01:30:11   that's an awful lot of machine learning compute power.

01:30:15   And I think the old way of thinking was that compute power only exists in the cloud.

01:30:22   And the truth is you, and it ties into it, is to bring this home.

01:30:28   You guys have this amazing silicon team that are building these incredibly high performance systems on a chip that aren't just CPUs,

01:30:40   and they're not just graphics, but they've got these neural engines now that have mind-boggling numbers of, you know,

01:30:48   I know in the camera sense, I forget, I've talked to you guys about it.

01:30:53   It's five trillion or something operations a second, it's crazy.

01:30:56   Right, again.

01:30:57   This is a teraflop level performance on these chips.

01:31:01   Right, and that's just like to take your selfie.

01:31:04   It's worth it, man.

01:31:08   Right.

01:31:09   But this performance power is out there in a billion devices that spread around the world,

01:31:19   and it can just be distributed, you know, your needs from your doorbell to recognize

01:31:24   your pal JAWS, who you want to ignore at your doorbell, can just, it can be distributed

01:31:33   when everybody has this powerful silicon in the devices they already own and control.

01:31:39   Yeah, no, you've got it.

01:31:41   And that's where we're putting our energies, is to doing more and more and more on device,

01:31:47   where it's often higher performance, lower latency, and much more private.

01:31:54   the fact that we can build the right silicon to power those experiences is a huge leg up for us

01:32:01   in this, but it's also extremely compatible with our values.

01:32:04   That about wraps it up. I know that we are running out of time. I know a couple of years ago Phil

01:32:15   put me on the spot and asked me, "Are there any other questions that you want to ask?" And I

01:32:20   drew a blank right there in front of everybody, but let me put you guys on the spot.

01:32:24   Is there one thing, let me ask for both of you, one thing that you guys were thinking, boy, I hope

01:32:31   Gruber asks me about blank because I really feel like I would like, you know, we didn't give enough

01:32:37   attention to it in the keynote yesterday and I didn't get to it. Well, I bought a new shirt for

01:32:42   this and I was really hoping you were going to notice that and ask me where I got it, but,

01:32:46   you know, I hate to have to bring it up. I, Jaws, I have never once wanted to ask where you bought

01:32:53   (laughing)

01:32:55   This is about as colorful as my shirt yet.

01:33:00   - I don't know.

01:33:05   For me, I think you did a pretty exhaustive job.

01:33:07   You asked a lot of good questions

01:33:08   and I'm glad we got a chance to explain more

01:33:11   than we ever could in the keynote.

01:33:12   'Cause as you know, especially doing the keynote on video,

01:33:16   we wanted to be cognizant of the,

01:33:18   we couldn't keep people watching that forever.

01:33:21   As fun as it was, we really did have the goal to keep it under two hours.

01:33:27   And we did.

01:33:28   We were, I think, about an hour 49 or something like that, which is about a half hour shorter

01:33:31   than we've been running over the last few years.

01:33:33   So that means that there's some of the detail that we have to get out, of course, as Craig

01:33:37   mentioned in SOTU and the over 100 developer sessions that we have throughout the week,

01:33:42   but also in conversations like this where we can explain a lot more, breathe a lot more

01:33:46   and explain some of the detail that has to obviously be ignored for time purposes at

01:33:51   the keynote.

01:33:52   I'll second that.

01:33:54   I think you hit the high points.

01:33:56   I'm really glad we were able to clarify a few things along the way.

01:34:01   And yeah, there's still going to be a ton, ton more to come out later this week.

01:34:05   And I've been previewing some of the sessions.

01:34:08   There's some great sessions out there, and the community will comment extensively, I'm

01:34:13   sure, on what we reveal.

01:34:15   So it'll be a summer full of excitement as everyone unpeels all of the details behind

01:34:21   we've been doing. All right, well then let me wrap up here by thanking you guys. I wish we had seen

01:34:28   each other. I look forward to seeing each other again. I think I can speak for you guys and say

01:34:32   I miss seeing the whole WWDC community in person. It'll happen again. Let me thank our sponsors

01:34:45   for this show. Flexibits with the fantastic, literally no pun intended,

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01:35:01   app. Collide, which I always want to pronounce "colide" because they spell it

01:35:05   K-O-L-I-D-E, but Collide has their new MDM coming out at Collide.com.

01:35:12   there I go, collide.com/mdm.

01:35:15   And last but not least, Scrum Center,

01:35:18   where you can get consulting, training, and coaching

01:35:22   on agile development, and you can find out more

01:35:25   at scrumcenter.com.

01:35:27   And their secret promo code, which don't tell anybody,

01:35:31   use the promo code TTS for the talk show,

01:35:34   and you'll save 20%.

01:35:36   My thanks to them, my thanks once again.

01:35:38   Lastly, to you, Craig, Jaws, thank you

01:35:41   for making this happen. This has been a lot of fun.

01:35:45   Thank you.