The Talk Show

283: ‘Some Kind of Sandwich’ With Dieter Bohn


00:00:00   Dieter, it's good to have you here.

00:00:01   Yeah.

00:00:02   It's like a, it's like, it's the first time we've talked in forever.

00:00:04   Yeah.

00:00:05   Uh, we, we were going to be, I was going to have you on a month ago.

00:00:11   Uh, then all world changed and now we have more to talk about.

00:00:16   And then we did record for 20 minutes and it didn't take, and now we have to start

00:00:22   over, but it'll be good.

00:00:24   Anything.

00:00:24   Yeah.

00:00:25   Anything that you don't enjoy about the next 20 minutes that happens here, just

00:00:28   assume that it was great the first time around.

00:00:32   And you'll just have to imagine.

00:00:35   Anyway, there's three things I want to talk about.

00:00:38   They are new.

00:00:39   It's like the world is-- at least our world continues

00:00:41   to go on.

00:00:42   I want to talk about the iPhone, the new iPhone SE.

00:00:46   I want to talk about the iPad Magic Keyboard.

00:00:51   And I want to talk about Android-- the year 2020,

00:00:55   so to date, and Android flagships.

00:00:58   - Sure, yeah, there's a handful.

00:01:01   Call it three, no, four, three and a half.

00:01:04   Call it three and a half.

00:01:06   - I can't wait to hear what you think they are

00:01:07   'cause that obviously is, I obviously have a lot to say

00:01:10   about the SE and the Magic Keyboard

00:01:12   and I personally don't have anything to say

00:01:13   about the Android flagships except that I find

00:01:18   everything very interesting and we'll get to that.

00:01:20   Let's do that as the third segment.

00:01:22   But the iPad Magic Keyboard I wanna get to first.

00:01:28   I thought your review was really interesting in a couple of ways.

00:01:34   But you, so everybody, at least I, everybody I know who's in the review racket had the 12.9 inch to review.

00:01:41   Yep, yeah, same. I bought the 11 inch, so I've got that now, but I reviewed it on the 12.9,

00:01:49   which maybe colored a little bit of my feeling about it,

00:01:54   because since I prefer the 11-inch iPad in the first place,

00:01:57   the 12.9 just feels big.

00:02:00   That's sort of why I focused on like,

00:02:01   here are the exact weight measurements.

00:02:03   And I did it in pounds,

00:02:05   'cause I've mostly got a US audience,

00:02:06   and I know that's awful.

00:02:07   I should have just offered grams also,

00:02:08   but I was in a hurry.

00:02:10   But yeah, it's heavy.

00:02:12   And I think that Apple knew it was heavy from the jump.

00:02:15   In fact, I know they knew it was heavy,

00:02:16   because I asked them, "Hey, how much does the 11 inch one weigh? Because I'm weighing this 12 inch

00:02:21   one, it seems kind of heavy. Can you just, you know, let me know what the spec is?" And they just

00:02:25   told me that there was nothing to share on that. I thought that was so interesting too in advance,

00:02:29   even before we got the 12.9 inch, they didn't have the weights for any of them.

00:02:33   Yeah, well, I mean, they had it. They, they, I'm sure that somebody somewhere with an apple

00:02:39   had weighed it. Oh yeah, they knew it, but I'm saying that there was no, there was no way to go

00:02:44   to like if you go to apple.com and click on iPad and then they're like they're like iPad keyboards

00:02:50   and they have this nice page with all of the latest iPad keyboards and there's nowhere there

00:02:54   that tells you how much any of them weigh and Dr Drang the these pseudonymous lovely Apple blogger

00:03:05   stuff I just a gobble up I love every almost everything he posts had speculated on the weights

00:03:14   based on, well, let's take,

00:03:16   we know the weights of the smart keyboards

00:03:18   and we know the shipping weights

00:03:20   and somehow it was like Amazon published

00:03:22   the shipping weights for the Magic keyboards,

00:03:25   you know, like how much the whole package is.

00:03:27   So if we take them as a percentage, we could, you know,

00:03:30   and his guess for the 12.9 inch was very close,

00:03:33   but it turns out the 11 inch Magic keyboard

00:03:36   is quite a bit heavier than his guess.

00:03:39   It does seem, 'cause it's percentage wise,

00:03:44   the 11 inch Magic Keyboard,

00:03:47   the new thing with the clicking keys and the trackpad,

00:03:52   is a ways closer to the 12.9 inch

00:03:57   than the smart keyboard do.

00:03:58   Does that make sense?

00:04:01   And I guess it's something to the effect of,

00:04:04   and I don't know that anybody's torn these things apart yet,

00:04:07   but I'm guessing that there's aspects of them

00:04:10   where the difference in size doesn't matter,

00:04:13   that there's like hinge mechanisms for both hinges

00:04:18   that the difference in size doesn't really matter

00:04:21   so much as the fact that the hinge is there at all

00:04:24   and it's, I guess the track pads weigh about the same

00:04:28   even though it's only slightly smaller, et cetera.

00:04:30   So the 11-inch is quite a bit heavier.

00:04:33   I don't know why Apple hid it though.

00:04:35   I mean, it is what it is, just be proud of it.

00:04:40   I don't know, it just was suspicious,

00:04:42   but it made me think, yeah, maybe we are guessing low

00:04:45   on the weights of these things.

00:04:47   - Yeah, I mean, maybe they just,

00:04:49   they knew that everybody would dunk on it.

00:04:50   I mean, I know that the day before the morning

00:04:53   of the reviews coming out,

00:04:55   some of the keyboards had actually shipped early.

00:04:57   - Yeah. - And so everyone saw

00:04:59   that it weighs, the 12.9 with the keyboard weighs more

00:05:04   than a MacBook Air, but weighs about the same

00:05:07   as like a 13-inch MacBook Pro.

00:05:08   And so I was like, oh my God, it's so heavy.

00:05:10   And so I think they knew that that was gonna be

00:05:13   the reaction probably, but I agree with you.

00:05:16   I think they should have just owned it.

00:05:17   Just be like, yep, we made the best keyboard we could,

00:05:20   and that meant that it weighs a little bit more.

00:05:22   But the iPad, you know, Apple is very good at pivoting,

00:05:25   but the iPad is the greatest portable device ever,

00:05:27   blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:05:29   You know, I think they could have pulled off

00:05:30   some sort of jujitsu on the messaging there.

00:05:33   - There's a great line, I love the writing books,

00:05:36   Drunk and White, The Elements of Style.

00:05:40   And as somebody who, long-time listeners of this show

00:05:44   know well, I've, I'm 47 years old,

00:05:48   but I've internalized a lot of words

00:05:51   I pronounced the wrong way.

00:05:53   Because I read them as a kid,

00:05:54   and I took a guess as to how they were pronounced,

00:05:56   and in my brain, they're just stuck that way.

00:05:59   And there's a line in that book where Strunk,

00:06:03   the old professor who was at E.B. White's English professor

00:06:08   at whatever college he went to,

00:06:10   His advice to his students was,

00:06:12   if you're reading out loud and you get to a word

00:06:14   you don't know how to pronounce, say it loud.

00:06:16   Don't, you know, instead of mumbling it,

00:06:18   if you don't know how to pronounce a word, say it loud.

00:06:21   And I kind of feel like, all right,

00:06:22   you're not proud of how much the Magic keyboards weigh?

00:06:26   Well, put the weight out there and be proud of it.

00:06:28   You know, just hang it out there.

00:06:31   But anyway, bottom line, the big thing for me,

00:06:35   my only regret with my review of the iPad Magic keyboard

00:06:39   is that I didn't put the review out

00:06:43   specifically as a review of the 12.9 inch

00:06:46   Magic, iPad Magic keyboard.

00:06:49   Because now that I have the 11 inch too,

00:06:52   for my personal iPad Pro, which is 11 inch,

00:06:56   which size I personally much prefer too,

00:06:59   I find that they're different enough,

00:07:04   more different than I expected and different enough

00:07:06   that they kind of demand to be reviewed

00:07:09   as separate products.

00:07:10   Or at least like one and a half different products,

00:07:13   it's like half the same and half different.

00:07:16   - So this is really fascinating to me

00:07:18   because I use so many different sized keyboards in my life

00:07:23   'cause I try and make sure

00:07:24   that I'm switching platforms regularly enough

00:07:26   where I feel like I'm familiar with everything

00:07:28   that just from hand feel,

00:07:32   maybe I'm numb to major differences

00:07:34   in keys and keyboards.

00:07:36   'cause the 11 feels about the same to me as a 12,

00:07:40   it's just smaller.

00:07:41   - For me, it's not so much about the keyboard being smaller

00:07:46   'cause I'm used to smaller mini keyboards too,

00:07:49   including some that are truly, truly micro,

00:07:52   like ones that are like little fold up ones

00:07:54   that you're supposed to use with a phone,

00:07:56   which I don't really do anymore,

00:07:57   but it was sort of like a dream of mine to like,

00:08:00   and still maybe someday I'll find a device

00:08:03   that'll let me do it,

00:08:04   I've always thought it would be cool to go on vacation

00:08:06   or just go on a, remember when we used to have meetings

00:08:10   and stuff? (laughs)

00:08:12   Like if I had like an Apple briefing

00:08:15   or some kind of product demo from some company in New York

00:08:18   to take the train to New York and take nothing but my phone

00:08:22   and a little fold-up keyboard and do all of my work

00:08:25   just with that and not have to worry

00:08:27   about even taking an iPad along.

00:08:31   So the fact that the A to Z alphabet keys are smaller,

00:08:36   I don't know what percentage,

00:08:37   let's say it's like 90% layout,

00:08:40   I'm fine with that,

00:08:42   and my fingers are used to that over the years.

00:08:45   I wouldn't wanna write as much,

00:08:48   like the thing about the 12.9 inch keyboard

00:08:51   is it is a full keyboard, right?

00:08:53   Like if I were gonna write a book,

00:08:55   I wouldn't hesitate to do all of the typing

00:08:57   on that iPad keyboard.

00:09:00   It is as full-sized of a keyboard as Apple's desktop

00:09:04   Bluetooth Magic Keyboard or their laptop, the MacBook ones.

00:09:08   It's full-size, the keys feel just as good.

00:09:11   They may be different in certain niggling ways,

00:09:14   but the smaller 11-inch one

00:09:16   is definitely a slightly smaller layout.

00:09:18   I wouldn't want to do as much typing on it

00:09:20   if I had another option, but I could.

00:09:24   - Yeah.

00:09:24   - My complaints, or not even complaints,

00:09:26   but just some of the differences,

00:09:28   is that some of the other keys are hard to type.

00:09:31   Like, I find it insane, absolutely insane,

00:09:35   that the right or left square bracket key

00:09:39   is a full-size key, and the right one is a half-size key,

00:09:44   even though they're a pair.

00:09:45   Like, I think that's insane.

00:09:48   I don't know how that past design muster at Apple.

00:09:53   It just seems crazy to me,

00:09:56   especially when there's a backslash key next to it,

00:10:00   you could make that one full size

00:10:02   and then make the two bracket keys half size.

00:10:05   It's just to make them the same.

00:10:07   Whatever size you make the bracket keys,

00:10:08   they should obviously be the same, is what I'm saying.

00:10:10   - Yeah, I mean, how often are you using one without the other?

00:10:14   - Right, like you're, yeah, you're,

00:10:17   if you are, you're like leaving your brackets hanging.

00:10:19   I find that crazy.

00:10:22   And then today, I linked to Dan Morin,

00:10:25   had a review of the Logitech keyboard

00:10:27   that they announced alongside these.

00:10:29   It's called the Touch Something,

00:10:31   the Logitech Touch Something,

00:10:32   I think is the official name.

00:10:35   Anyway, he had a review of that.

00:10:36   That's Logitech's product designed in conjunction

00:10:39   with Apple for the non-pro iPads

00:10:42   so that there's a cover/keyboard case

00:10:45   with an integrated trackpad

00:10:48   that connects to those iPad smart connectors.

00:10:50   Anyway, looking at the pictures of that,

00:10:54   The way they did it is they made the two square brackets

00:10:58   and the backslash key like 2/3.

00:11:02   All three of those keys are the same width

00:11:04   and instead of half and full,

00:11:06   they're all like 2/3 size.

00:11:08   Well, that's a good compromise.

00:11:10   2/3 is a pretty good compromise.

00:11:13   And then the other key that really is really driving me nuts

00:11:16   trying to type it is the dash key,

00:11:18   another or hyphen, I don't know what you call it,

00:11:20   but it's the key next to zero in between zero and equals,

00:11:24   and it's a half-size key on the 11-inch iPad Magic keyboard,

00:11:29   and I keep missing it 'cause it's so small.

00:11:32   - Yeah, this I noticed because I'm actually

00:11:35   one of the worst people for just using em dashes

00:11:37   in lieu of actual punctuation or other punctuation.

00:11:41   - I'm right there with you.

00:11:42   - Yeah, Chris Welch, one of our reporters,

00:11:45   just yells at me every time.

00:11:46   Every time he edits one of my pieces,

00:11:47   he just deletes everything.

00:11:49   It's that, and then I have to stop using the word pretty.

00:11:51   Those are the two things that I need to cut out of my life.

00:11:54   - So I looked, and on the Logitech keyboard,

00:11:58   what they did, and I think this is pretty clever,

00:12:01   maybe there's other smaller footprint keyboards

00:12:03   that do this, and probably there are over the years.

00:12:07   I've never really noticed it, but I'm like,

00:12:09   "Well, wait, how is that keyboard,

00:12:11   "which is for 10.5-inch iPads, so therefore, in theory,

00:12:15   "perhaps even more space-constrained,

00:12:18   How do they have a full width hyphen key and an equals key?

00:12:23   And the trick is, if you squint and look at it,

00:12:27   the whole number row on that keyboard

00:12:30   is slightly smaller in width than the alphabet keys.

00:12:35   So the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 dot dot dot all the way across there,

00:12:40   they're like--

00:12:41   I don't know, I didn't take out Photoshop

00:12:43   and try to measure them.

00:12:44   but they look like they're all maybe like 85%

00:12:48   of the alphabet keys.

00:12:50   And so like one, two, and three align with Q W E

00:12:54   as you'd expect, but by the time you get to eight, nine,

00:12:57   and zero, they're a little bit further to the left

00:13:00   of the alphabet keys underneath them than you're used to,

00:13:03   but then that makes room for dash and equals keys

00:13:06   that are to the same width as those other number keys.

00:13:10   That seems like, since you have to make compromises

00:13:14   to get a smaller footprint keyboard, those seem like better compromises than what Apple's made.

00:13:20   - Oh, for sure. I mean, I would even be willing to have the backspace key be even a little bit

00:13:26   smaller, 'cause it's, you know, it's like Fitts' Law, but for people, like, you can reach out there

00:13:30   and hit it, and if it's a little bit smaller there, it's less of a pain than the hyphen key

00:13:35   being smaller. - Yeah, 'cause you can do,

00:13:37   it is, I think it actually is Fitts' Law. I don't think Fitts' Law only applies to software.

00:13:43   I think you could learn it you can just reach up to the corner right and just blindly go for the corner

00:13:48   And if you overshoot you're not going to hit the wrong key

00:13:50   You're going to be off the side or over the top of the delete key. You can hit it

00:13:55   Although on the on the it's called the logitech combo touch apparently on the logitech combo touch

00:14:00   You if you reach over you will hit the function row, which they have. Well, we'll have to talk about that in a moment

00:14:06   But the other thing I've noticed with the 11 inch magic keyboard

00:14:12   Compared to the 12.9 inch is that the magnets are a little different. It doesn't seem to me as strong and magnetic connection

00:14:19   Yeah, it's easier to take off which is good when you want to take it off

00:14:25   But it also seems like it's not quite as secure which maybe isn't as good if you're gonna use it on a bumpy train or something

00:14:32   Now the thing I don't know is I I do I know it's the same thing where it comes off a little bit more easily

00:14:40   But I don't I'm using my with the 2018 iPad Pro the 11-inch so which you know are compatible

00:14:46   So I wonder if I had a 2020 11 inch iPad Pro if it has stronger magnets in it. I kind of doubt it

00:14:52   But it's possible. Yeah, it's possible

00:14:56   I can't compare 11 inch 8 2018 to 2020 because I don't have a 2020 11 inch but I can compare

00:15:04   The 12.9 inch for both years because okay. I have my wife owns the 2018

00:15:10   12.9 inch iPad Pro and

00:15:14   My testing with that was that it was magnetically identical

00:15:18   It was okay. It was I mean now I didn't measure it in any way with any kind of tool, but just

00:15:24   Anecdotally, it just seemed equally strong

00:15:28   exactly the same magnetically as the new one.

00:15:31   So I don't know, I can't say that the 11 inch

00:15:34   is the same way, but it's definitely a different thing

00:15:36   for me going between the 12.9 and the 11 inch.

00:15:39   It's just, and I don't think, again,

00:15:42   that's the sort of thing I regret about my review,

00:15:45   'cause I really went on and on

00:15:47   about how magnetically strong it was,

00:15:50   and it's not that it is, but it is only for the 12.9,

00:15:55   so I wish I had emphasized that.

00:15:57   - Well, so one thing, and maybe we'll get into this later,

00:16:00   but one of the things that's nice about this keyboard,

00:16:05   and it sort of applies to smart keyboard,

00:16:06   not quite as much, is you can pick it up

00:16:10   and walk around with it in a way that,

00:16:11   like with a Surface Pro, to pick up a Surface Pro

00:16:14   with the keyboard attached,

00:16:15   it's kind of this weird floppy mess, right?

00:16:17   You gotta fold it up.

00:16:18   But this thing, you can pick it up and hold it in one hand

00:16:21   and walk around your house or your apartment with it

00:16:24   in a way that, like with this Logitech keyboard,

00:16:27   you can't, you know, 'cause it's gonna flop around.

00:16:30   So I really think that the magnets being strong,

00:16:34   maybe a little bit less strong on the 11, I don't know,

00:16:36   but the thing was designed, I don't know,

00:16:39   it feels like it was designed for my home

00:16:41   instead of like my backpack,

00:16:42   and that gets to the weight thing.

00:16:44   But it also just, it gets to like,

00:16:45   I feel like maybe you wrote this,

00:16:47   it feels more like a dock than it does a case.

00:16:49   - Yeah, I did write that, and I do think that.

00:16:51   It's like a case, it's a dock that folds up

00:16:55   into a case-sized wrapper,

00:16:57   not a case with a keyboard that you can type on.

00:17:01   - Right, yeah.

00:17:02   - I even turned it upside down.

00:17:03   I mean, I was, you know, I'm not reckless with review units,

00:17:07   but I am ever so slightly more reckless

00:17:10   than I am with the ones I've paid for.

00:17:12   Like, I'm not one, like, if they say that, you know,

00:17:17   here's a review unit of a new iPhone,

00:17:19   it's IP68 water-resistant.

00:17:22   I don't dunk it in water.

00:17:24   I just let other reviewers do it

00:17:26   because I don't wanna be the one who shorts one out.

00:17:28   And then it's not because, hey,

00:17:31   you're the ones who said it was water resistant.

00:17:33   It's not that I'm afraid to call Apple up and say that.

00:17:35   I don't wanna lose 24 hours to get a new review unit,

00:17:39   though, to do it.

00:17:40   So I don't.

00:17:41   So I'm a little bit cautious.

00:17:42   But I took the 12.9 inch in the keyboard

00:17:45   and turned it upside down.

00:17:47   And it's like, it doesn't come out.

00:17:49   And the hinge, I'm not gonna say the hinge

00:17:51   doesn't move at all, but it stays pretty close

00:17:56   to the same angle.

00:17:56   It certainly doesn't bend.

00:17:58   If it adjusts a degree or two, sure, that's gravity,

00:18:03   but you can turn it upside down and it doesn't come out.

00:18:06   I'm not sure I would do that with the 11-inch,

00:18:08   and I definitely wouldn't do any of that

00:18:10   with Apple's smart keyboard.

00:18:12   - Oh yeah, no, that thing pops off really easily.

00:18:15   - And you can definitely, I mean,

00:18:17   is it ever truly advisable to walk around your house

00:18:21   with a laptop of any kind?

00:18:22   Probably not.

00:18:24   But we do it, right?

00:18:26   I mean, everybody does it.

00:18:29   And you can definitely do that with the Magic Keyboard.

00:18:32   It's definitely much more stable than you would think,

00:18:35   especially given how similar it looks externally,

00:18:39   like from the bottom and top,

00:18:41   or not fabric, whatever you call that rubbery material

00:18:45   they make these things. - It's weird, right?

00:18:46   And it picks up just dust in a weird way.

00:18:50   There's something about that material that I'm just not a big fan of.

00:18:54   It's grippy, so I'll give them that.

00:18:56   But it's grippy in a way that, like, it doesn't, like, you know how some plastic,

00:19:00   I don't know, I've used a bunch of random keyboard cases and stuff, like, it's grippy,

00:19:04   but then it like starts to feel like weird and greasy?

00:19:06   Yeah.

00:19:07   This, that never happens to this really, but it, I don't know, it definitely feels like it's some

00:19:13   sort of, you know, custom polyurethane, probably something, something plastic that they really

00:19:19   believe in because it's grippy and means it won't slip off an airplane tray table.

00:19:26   But I'm not a big fan of it.

00:19:29   It has two problems that I've seen.

00:19:32   It's one, it definitely picks up dust or dust sticks to it in ways that it just seems prone

00:19:40   to it.

00:19:41   I think it picks up finger and palm grease,

00:19:46   and it cleans easily.

00:19:49   So it's not like permanent shiny spots.

00:19:53   I know what you're talking about.

00:19:54   There are some things that pick up permanent shiny spots.

00:19:57   They're not permanent, but I've been using it

00:20:01   in pretty clean areas, not really eating around it

00:20:05   or eating like a hot dog or something with my finger,

00:20:09   I've eaten chicken wings and then touching it.

00:20:11   (laughing)

00:20:13   But yet I still have grease spots on it,

00:20:17   for lack of a better term.

00:20:20   And then I wipe 'em off and they clean off,

00:20:22   but with all of Apple's aluminum MacBooks,

00:20:25   I never feel like I have to clean them every day.

00:20:30   - Yeah.

00:20:31   - Yeah, I'm not a fan of this material either.

00:20:34   I didn't really get into that in my review,

00:20:36   but it's like I don't hate it.

00:20:38   I don't know, it's just so unusual.

00:20:40   It's almost like somebody needs to write a review

00:20:43   of this material.

00:20:44   - Yeah.

00:20:45   - Because it's like nothing else.

00:20:47   I don't know what to compare it to.

00:20:49   - Yeah, it's very strange.

00:20:51   But I mean, I don't know, it bothers me more on the outside,

00:20:54   which honestly I never really see

00:20:56   because the thing sits on my desk.

00:20:58   Like I never take it off my desk.

00:20:59   I now am taking the iPad off of it and using the iPad

00:21:03   just all by itself without a case on it,

00:21:05   way more than I have in the past.

00:21:07   Like I kid you not, like three, four years.

00:21:09   Like I don't know if I've ever used an iPad this much

00:21:11   outside of a case as I do now,

00:21:13   that I basically have a dock

00:21:15   that I can just attach it to to charge

00:21:17   and then take it off to go walk around my house with it.

00:21:20   - See, I'm the opposite where I just haven't used it

00:21:22   in any sort of case for years

00:21:24   'cause I so dislike the smart keyboard.

00:21:26   And so I've used a keyboard with my iPad,

00:21:29   but I have been using for years

00:21:31   just like regular desktop Bluetooth keyboards

00:21:34   and then propping up my iPad in a standalone little,

00:21:37   tiny little tripod stand.

00:21:39   And so it's even easier to pick it up

00:21:42   and just walk around with it as, you know,

00:21:44   iPad as a tablet.

00:21:46   But that's what I like so much about this case

00:21:48   is it's so easy to get it out and just do that.

00:21:51   Like, oh, I just wanna read some comic books at night

00:21:54   and I don't want, certainly don't wanna have

00:21:56   a bulky keyboard case folded around the back to do that.

00:22:00   It's so easy to just take it out and walk around.

00:22:02   But that's the thing that makes it so weird

00:22:04   that I seem to get greasy spots on it

00:22:08   because I'm not even moving it.

00:22:09   It's like at the same, I wipe it down,

00:22:12   put it on the kitchen counter at my spot

00:22:15   and leave it folded open and then I go to weigh it

00:22:20   or something or do something,

00:22:23   I pick it up for some reason and look at it.

00:22:25   I'm like, well, how did it get so dirty?

00:22:27   I haven't even moved it.

00:22:28   - You got ghosts.

00:22:31   All right, F keys, we gotta talk about the F keys.

00:22:34   - So, I think they should have included function keys.

00:22:39   I think that having, you know, even the iPad equivalent,

00:22:44   so like home button, a multitasking button,

00:22:47   play, pause, next, last, volume, keyboard brightness,

00:22:51   it is just way more convenient to just reach up

00:22:54   and hit a function key than it is to reach all the way up

00:22:57   to the control center or try and hit that tiny little target

00:23:00   the trackpad to start adjusting those things.

00:23:04   And they didn't put it in, obviously, and they didn't have it in their previous keyboards.

00:23:09   So part of it is I don't think Apple believes in function rows for iPads.

00:23:16   But part of it is they decided they wanted a keyboard dock that had a rock-solid base

00:23:22   that had this floating screen.

00:23:24   And I think there's reasons for that that make sense.

00:23:27   but it just meant that there was,

00:23:28   even if they physically wanted to,

00:23:30   it would have been awkward to fit the function row in.

00:23:32   - Yeah, depending on the angle, you know,

00:23:34   the angle that the screen,

00:23:36   if you have an acute enough angle, like closer to 90,

00:23:40   then there'd be room for them.

00:23:41   But when it's at its widest position,

00:23:43   you'd kind of have to,

00:23:44   it's like fitting your fingers into a slot, you know.

00:23:47   - Like sneaking in there, yeah, yeah.

00:23:50   - And you know, you get it with the backlighting.

00:23:52   But you know, speaking of backlighting, that's the key.

00:23:56   Everybody who mentions this,

00:23:57   And it's a good point, is that if you want to adjust

00:24:00   the backlighting, it's the only way to do it right now

00:24:04   is to go to the settings app, settings,

00:24:08   let me see if I can even remember,

00:24:09   settings, settings, general, keyboard.

00:24:12   - Keyboard, hardware keyboard.

00:24:14   - Hardware keyboard, and then backlighting.

00:24:17   And that is, I mean, you made the point in your review

00:24:22   that their default settings for the backlight are excellent.

00:24:26   - Yeah, they're great.

00:24:27   As long as you want the backlight there,

00:24:30   it's always correct.

00:24:32   I've never had to adjust it if I want the backlight on.

00:24:35   But the thing about the iPad that I love

00:24:38   is that you do more than just use it like a laptop.

00:24:41   You watch movies on it, you read, you do other things.

00:24:44   And sometimes you wanna have the thing propped up

00:24:49   with some kind of stand,

00:24:50   like this is a perfectly good stand,

00:24:51   and you don't want the keys lit up.

00:24:53   And in order to do that,

00:24:54   you gotta like hunt through the settings,

00:24:57   or you gotta follow Frederico Viticci on Twitter

00:25:00   and find a shortcut app.

00:25:02   You know, it's ridiculous.

00:25:04   - Yeah, and so there's no way they're going

00:25:06   to retroactively add backlight keys, hardware keys,

00:25:10   to this keyboard because a keyboard doesn't get

00:25:12   software updates that enable new keys.

00:25:14   But so the best we can hope for is getting

00:25:16   the backlighting into the control center?

00:25:21   - Yeah, well, and there's a perfectly obvious place

00:25:23   to do it, which is under a long press of the brightness

00:25:25   in the same way, 'cause logically, you long press the volume

00:25:29   and then you get to your AirPod extra settings,

00:25:31   so you should long press the brightness

00:25:33   and get to your keyboard brightness settings.

00:25:35   - I was excited because everybody,

00:25:37   a lot of people observed this and had it.

00:25:40   I had the thought, "Hey, let's see if Siri can do this,"

00:25:45   and I asked Siri to adjust the keyboard backlighting

00:25:51   and then it came up with a brightness slider on screen.

00:25:53   And I was like, bingo, there it is.

00:25:55   I can't wait to publish this tip.

00:25:57   And I went to try it, and as I slid it down,

00:26:01   it was my display brightness.

00:26:02   (laughing)

00:26:04   So I guess I can't even say that that's,

00:26:08   it would be good to add it to Siri too.

00:26:10   So you could just say turn the key,

00:26:12   it would be nice as a shortcut to tell Siri

00:26:14   to turn the keyboard backlighting off

00:26:16   and have the right thing happen.

00:26:20   And I guess it's not a bad guess to just,

00:26:23   well, here's the only brightness I know how to show you,

00:26:25   I'll show it to you.

00:26:26   I guess I can't complain about not understanding,

00:26:28   but it was a disappointment.

00:26:30   The other thing is that because there's no row of F keys,

00:26:35   there's no escape key.

00:26:37   And we kind of went through this with the MacBooks,

00:26:40   where the MacBooks that first shipped with the touch bar

00:26:43   didn't have a hardware escape key.

00:26:45   And now with the new one,

00:26:47   starting with the 16-inch MacBook Pro.

00:26:49   They even made it a bullet point.

00:26:53   It's like a selling point of what's so great

00:26:55   about the updated keyboard in the 16-inch MacBook Pro

00:26:58   is it has an escape key.

00:27:00   And it's so cool to see Apple putting that in

00:27:03   as a bullet point.

00:27:04   And again, with my person, I know there's people,

00:27:08   I know that this one is polarizing,

00:27:11   but I like the upside down T for the arrow keys too.

00:27:14   And I'm glad to see them making it a selling point.

00:27:17   But there is no F key row, and so there is no escape key.

00:27:22   But you get to remap it.

00:27:23   You can say, what do you do, caps lock?

00:27:26   - Yeah, so every computer that I own,

00:27:30   I've remapped caps lock to some kind of universal search.

00:27:33   So on my Mac, it goes to Alfred.

00:27:36   On Windows, I actually have it open up

00:27:39   a new edge browser tab.

00:27:43   on Chrome OS it's a new Chrome tab,

00:27:45   but you can't remap the caps lock key on the iPad to that,

00:27:50   so I remap it to escape because I'm so used

00:27:55   to hitting the caps lock key to do a search

00:27:57   that if I left it on as caps lock,

00:27:59   I would end up typing in all caps all the time.

00:28:02   - So you might as well have it mapped to something.

00:28:04   - Yeah.

00:28:05   - Yeah, I have it set to the,

00:28:07   I have escape mapped to the globe hardware key

00:28:10   because I don't-- - Okay.

00:28:12   The only thing the globe does by default

00:28:14   is toggle between the hardware keyboard

00:28:17   and the on-screen emoji keyboard.

00:28:20   And you can type control space to do the same thing.

00:28:22   And I kind of, that comes naturally to me,

00:28:25   'cause on the Mac you type control command space

00:28:28   to get the emoji picker.

00:28:30   So that comes naturally to me,

00:28:33   so I might as well remap the globe to escape

00:28:36   and it somehow feels okay mentally.

00:28:39   I mean, I could do it, if I couldn't do the globe,

00:28:41   If only caps lock, I would just do caps lock.

00:28:44   'Cause I don't, who uses caps lock, right?

00:28:46   I mean, I mean, I guess there's some angry,

00:28:48   angry people on the internet who really,

00:28:51   really make use of it, but.

00:28:53   - Yeah, I think if you're gonna use caps lock to yell,

00:28:56   you should be forced to use the shift key.

00:28:58   And like, you really mean it,

00:28:59   like the physical effort of typing the capital letters,

00:29:02   it should be more work.

00:29:03   - You should, but I feel like the people who use it

00:29:06   would have none of it.

00:29:08   - Yeah.

00:29:09   - It is nice, I guess it's not surprising.

00:29:11   I mean, and I know it's all software at some point,

00:29:13   but it is nice that if you remap the caps lock key,

00:29:17   the green light no longer goes on and off

00:29:20   every other invocation.

00:29:21   The green light is tied to the idea

00:29:24   that caps lock is caps lock, so that's cool.

00:29:27   - Oh, actually, if you are a Mac user,

00:29:31   they finally added in Catalina the ability

00:29:33   to natively remap the caps lock key on Macs

00:29:37   without having to use a third-party software

00:29:39   like Karabiner Elements.

00:29:41   So that's great.

00:29:41   And it also does the same thing where

00:29:43   if you remap it natively,

00:29:45   it doesn't turn on the green light.

00:29:47   - Yeah, so that's cool.

00:29:48   - What do you think of the trackpad?

00:29:53   'Cause I, you know, like I mentioned in my review,

00:29:55   I use the Surface Pro a lot.

00:29:57   And so like this trackpad is almost identical in size.

00:30:00   And so it is,

00:30:02   I'm used to having small trackpads every now and then.

00:30:05   But if you're used to a trackpad on a MacBook

00:30:09   or used to like a trackpad on like an iMac or something,

00:30:12   those things are massive.

00:30:14   So I'm wondering what it's like to go down

00:30:16   to such a tiny trackpad for you.

00:30:17   - All right.

00:30:18   I like it a lot, and I like it a lot more.

00:30:23   It makes me wonder why they're so big.

00:30:25   I know that now that the MacBook Pro keyboards,

00:30:29   or trackpads in particular, have gotten truly expansive.

00:30:33   I mean, I joke that it's like the 16-inch one

00:30:36   is the size of a New York studio apartment.

00:30:38   (laughing)

00:30:41   I know that there have been others who say they're too big,

00:30:44   and I know there are some people who get problems

00:30:48   with their palms registering as false touches

00:30:51   'cause they're so big, and I don't run into that

00:30:53   for some physiological reason about the skin on my palms.

00:30:57   I've been using a 16-inch MacBook Pro extensively

00:31:01   over the last few months, and I really don't have

00:31:03   any problems with it being so big

00:31:06   in terms of getting false touches.

00:31:08   But on the other hand, now that I'm getting by just fine

00:31:12   with this comparatively tiny little trackpad,

00:31:15   I'm like, I don't know why that's so big.

00:31:17   The one thing that it seems like I run into

00:31:20   the size problems is if I do try dragging

00:31:22   and dropping something, I run out of space.

00:31:25   But on the other hand, I don't drag and drop on iPad much.

00:31:29   I just don't think it's as much of a thing

00:31:31   as it is on the Mac.

00:31:34   I use it much more for just moving the pointer around

00:31:37   and it's big enough, even up and down, it's big enough.

00:31:41   And for scrolling, and for scrolling,

00:31:43   you just keep flicking, so it's not so much

00:31:47   going in one continuous movement where you need the size,

00:31:50   you just keep flicking two fingers to scroll,

00:31:53   and so it's fine.

00:31:54   I like it a lot.

00:31:55   I wanna know what the black magic is

00:32:00   that they've made it equally clickable

00:32:03   at the top and bottom instead of the diving board effect

00:32:07   of all the old, you know, because it doesn't use

00:32:10   haptic feedback to fake clicks, it really clicks.

00:32:14   But before Apple had these haptic magic track pads

00:32:18   in the MacBooks, they were these diving board buttons

00:32:23   that were way clickier at the bottom

00:32:28   than they were at the top.

00:32:29   And I don't understand why, if they were able to do this,

00:32:32   come they weren't doing it all along? Yeah, I don't know, the service trackpad is a

00:32:36   diving board again, but at first I was like, oh, they did the haptic thing, this is great.

00:32:42   And then I realized, oh no, it's actually a full-on button all the way top to bottom.

00:32:47   You are actually like pushing a thing down and it's clicking. It's really good. I'm really

00:32:53   impressed with it. I've never used a trackpad of this size that felt this good. I mean,

00:32:59   I think the only thing that I lose from going down to a smaller trackpad is, um,

00:33:03   I finally started using like the, the, like the pinch out,

00:33:06   pinch in gestures on the Mac to like go to your desktop or, um,

00:33:09   I'm actually using the launch pad per launch center,

00:33:12   whatever the app launcher is for once. Um, I haven't, I didn't use it for years.

00:33:16   And then all of a sudden, since I started using it to go to my desktop, I was like,

00:33:19   Oh yeah, this thing is here. I'll start clicking on this again.

00:33:22   And I kind of like it. That's weird.

00:33:23   And you find that the pinch, there's not enough room to pinch.

00:33:28   - Yeah, I think that, I mean, but you don't need to

00:33:30   on the iPad 'cause you can do that sort of three finger

00:33:32   hold or three finger swipe up and it works pretty well.

00:33:36   I agree with you on dragging.

00:33:39   If you wanna drag something across, it's pretty tough.

00:33:41   But since I'm using the 11 inch most of the time anyway,

00:33:44   like you never have that far to drag.

00:33:47   So really like my only problem with the trackpad

00:33:50   is stuff that's kind of out of Apple's control.

00:33:53   It's just like, you never really know inside an app

00:33:56   what the track, if the track pad is gonna do exactly what you expect it to.

00:33:59   And I've complained about Google's apps in this regard.

00:34:02   Um, although Google's apps are just terrible on the iPad to begin with.

00:34:05   Uh, but even weird stuff, like if you, if you use Twitter, uh, the official

00:34:09   Twitter app, like some, some of the buttons, the iPad, like does the little

00:34:14   lock on thing, like the Apple TV.

00:34:15   And it does, you know, like turns into the shape of the button.

00:34:18   That's really neat.

00:34:18   And then other buttons just, Nope.

00:34:20   It's just like, it feels very weird and unnatural inside a single app where

00:34:24   Sometimes the mouse does the magical resize thing and sometimes it just stays that little circle

00:34:28   Yeah, and I guess I without knowing the you know, you'd have to talk to the developers and you know app by app

00:34:36   But i'm guessing it's some kind of thing where if you have a button and it's derived from a standard ui kit button

00:34:43   without overriding certain things you get this

00:34:47   magical the the cursor morphs into an outline around the button automatically and for other things that are

00:34:54   buttons and up until now when you just tap them with your finger act just like buttons and there's

00:35:00   no reason to think of them any differently they somehow don't inherit that for free and again

00:35:06   you're right and you're right though that even within the same apps it you can't really guess

00:35:12   until you hover the the mouse pointer over it whether it's going to do it or not yeah but there

00:35:18   are other like in control center so you to bring control you like you sort of you drag the the mouse

00:35:23   beyond the edge of the screen.

00:35:25   And that's what brings in your slide over

00:35:27   or your dock or whatever.

00:35:28   It took me a while to sort of get used to that feeling

00:35:31   of just keep moving your finger up

00:35:33   and it'll eventually come down.

00:35:35   So that's neat once you get used to it.

00:35:36   But I love, I don't know why this gets to me,

00:35:39   but I love when you hover the mouse over the volume

00:35:42   or brightness slider.

00:35:43   You don't need to do anything other than just

00:35:45   when you do a two finger scroll on those sliders,

00:35:48   it directly adjusts the volume.

00:35:50   It's so obvious and it's tiny

00:35:52   and it's not that big a deal,

00:35:53   but it's just, that's like a small considered thing

00:35:55   whereas if they had made you like click and drag,

00:35:57   I wouldn't have been surprised

00:35:58   but instead they just got it right.

00:36:00   - It's good.

00:36:01   I really, the existence of this trackpad support

00:36:06   and it is, to me, the software support for the trackpad

00:36:09   is the bigger deal because I've been ever since iPad OS,

00:36:14   I'm always gonna call it iOS,

00:36:15   but ever since iPad OS 13.4 shipped

00:36:17   with this trackpad support last month,

00:36:20   I've been using my iPad so much more,

00:36:23   not just because I need to use it

00:36:26   to be able to write about it,

00:36:27   but I just like, ah, finally I feel like

00:36:30   I'm text editing without thinking, you know?

00:36:33   And I just feel like now I'm using my fingers

00:36:37   instead of having mittens on my hands

00:36:39   and feeling so constrained

00:36:41   when I'm trying to just edit text.

00:36:43   And doing it in this integrated magic keyboard

00:36:48   that it snaps into is great.

00:36:50   - The funny thing about text stuff is

00:36:54   I tried really hard to wrap my head around

00:37:00   the way that iPadOS handled cursor and text selection

00:37:04   and copy and paste,

00:37:05   and there's the new three-finger tap stuff.

00:37:08   And I was like, all right, I don't wanna say it's me.

00:37:10   I don't wanna say I'm just a fuddy-duddy

00:37:12   and I'm stuck in my old ways.

00:37:15   maybe like I can really learn

00:37:16   how this new text selection stuff works.

00:37:18   And I never really got there and I'm still not quite there.

00:37:23   And it's really, really obvious to me now

00:37:26   that all of the way the cursor stuff works in iPadOS

00:37:31   was designed for the touchpad.

00:37:33   And then they're like, well, we also need to make it work

00:37:35   for a touch first experience.

00:37:36   So let's try and throw some machine learning at it

00:37:39   and see if it works.

00:37:40   And I just, I think I feel like it's honestly

00:37:43   a step backwards.

00:37:43   you don't have a touchpad attached to the magnifying glass work. It was still awkward

00:37:49   and like had lots of extra steps, but at least it was precise and it was completely predictable.

00:37:54   I feel like right now, without the trackpad attached, interacting with text is a little

00:37:59   bit unpredictable, and that is a thing that text interaction should never be.

00:38:03   Yeah, and I know that there are people both outside Apple, and I happen to know inside

00:38:10   Apple that there are people who I don't know that anybody is flat out like opposed to this

00:38:17   trackpad support system wide, but there are people who unlike me who just love it, who

00:38:24   are ambivalent about it on the grounds that it's taken away their motivation to finally

00:38:35   get a purely on-screen touch interface

00:38:38   for selecting text right,

00:38:41   which I don't think they've ever gotten

00:38:44   for the phone or the iPad.

00:38:46   Selecting text has always been fiddly.

00:38:49   And I'm with you that I feel like getting rid

00:38:52   of the magnifying glass was actually a step backward.

00:38:55   I think they made it slightly worse.

00:38:57   It feels like I'm less precise than I was before.

00:39:00   And it certainly isn't better.

00:39:03   - Yeah.

00:39:03   I mean, I think the idea was they were hoping

00:39:05   that they could use some machine learning

00:39:08   to sort of like just fudge it, just figure it out for you.

00:39:11   And it just, it can't, it can't quite do that.

00:39:13   - Yeah.

00:39:14   So the other thing we have to talk about

00:39:17   is your comparison as somebody who owns the Surface Pro X.

00:39:22   And clearly the biggest differences

00:39:24   between Microsoft and Apple

00:39:26   is how do you pronounce the letter X?

00:39:27   Is it an X or is it a 10?

00:39:31   It is an x but I I had to ask and they're like, of course, it's x it's like, okay

00:39:35   What does x mean, you know, it means x okay great

00:39:38   Uh, and then we get to minor minor differences, you know, like whether to integrate a kickstand into the tablet or not

00:39:46   Yeah, I mean

00:39:48   So look the the funny thing so the surface when it first came out surface pro like it introduced this they introduced this idea of uh,

00:39:55   which is just a hilarious word, but people were concerned that like,

00:39:59   could you fit the surface on your lap? Could you fit on an airplane tray table?

00:40:03   And you can, but it's just a little bit awkward.

00:40:06   But it's because they have this idea of a kickstand and I,

00:40:12   on the whole,

00:40:14   I tend to prefer the setup on the Surface Pro because I really do use that sort

00:40:19   of like, I don't know what mode to call it,

00:40:22   like the portrait mode where like there's no keyboard,

00:40:24   where there's no keyboard, but it's still able to stand up on its own.

00:40:27   And with the Surface, you could either do that with the keyboard attached, or just flip

00:40:30   the keyboard around behind it.

00:40:32   The other thing that you can do with it is, because that kickstand goes all the way to

00:40:36   almost flat, is if you draw a lot, you can put the thing down at a really comfortable

00:40:42   drawing angle.

00:40:43   Now, you can do all these things with an iPad with the original, sort of, origami smart

00:40:48   cover.

00:40:49   It has, like, you can put it sideways, or you can stand it up, or whatever.

00:40:52   But ever since they did the smart keyboard and now with this thing, it really, really

00:40:58   wants to have the iPad be at that sort of laptop angle.

00:41:02   And it really fights you if you want to do, you can't really, you can't do any other angle.

00:41:06   So you kind of need to take the thing out.

00:41:09   And then if you want to prop it up in some way, you're sort of on your own.

00:41:14   And is a kickstand inelegant to have on a physical piece of hardware?

00:41:19   Yes, it is.

00:41:21   it's so functional for me to be able to just like,

00:41:25   you know, set the thing down in bed and like start a movie

00:41:29   or, you know, if I do want to draw, which I don't do much,

00:41:32   you can like bend the thing down.

00:41:34   For me, the trade-off is worth it.

00:41:35   - Well, I mean, in the kickstand's favor too,

00:41:38   you always have a way to stand it up.

00:41:40   You're never without it.

00:41:42   You're not, oh, I forgot to take my little, you know,

00:41:45   $10 tripod thing that's just to prop it up

00:41:48   so that I can watch a movie, you know.

00:41:50   I forgot to put it in my bag.

00:41:52   Now how am I gonna prop this thing up?

00:41:54   The drawing thing is interesting too.

00:41:58   I mean, it is very, very clear

00:42:01   that the iPad Magic Keyboard is only meant

00:42:04   to be used in laptop angles.

00:42:08   And Apple says 90 to 130.

00:42:11   The 130 is the maximum open angle.

00:42:14   You can actually open it less than 90.

00:42:17   You can, you know, it stays where it is

00:42:20   at like 80 to 75 degrees.

00:42:22   It's just that there's no, they don't even advertise

00:42:24   that as a feature because it's almost,

00:42:27   who would never-- - Who would want that.

00:42:28   - Who would want that.

00:42:29   I do find, I'm not an illustrator,

00:42:33   so I don't really draw much.

00:42:35   I do find that it's a little bit,

00:42:37   I have a pencil though and I do write notes with my iPad.

00:42:41   I find that it's easier to write on the screen

00:42:43   than I expected while it's in the Magic Keyboard,

00:42:47   but I will admit that I wouldn't wanna write extensively,

00:42:51   but it's not super awkward.

00:42:53   And then I thought about it.

00:42:54   I was like, well, people write on whiteboards

00:42:56   at a 90-degree angle all the time.

00:42:58   And I know that ergonomically something that's,

00:43:01   while you're standing up, writing at something chest high

00:43:06   is a lot different ergonomically

00:43:08   than writing on a laptop screen, but it's not ridiculous.

00:43:11   And if it's literally on your lap, laptop, as a laptop,

00:43:16   like in some kind of, any kind of scenario

00:43:20   where you actually have it on your lap,

00:43:22   your lap can, depending on how you sit and your posture,

00:43:27   you can have it fade away from you, slope away from you.

00:43:30   So you can kind of get the iPad and a Magic Keyboard

00:43:35   at a more amenable angle to drawing

00:43:38   or scribbling or putting notes.

00:43:40   And because it's so, the hinges are so strong

00:43:44   and the magnetic connection is so strong,

00:43:46   it, I feel like you could do it securely.

00:43:49   So I don't feel like it's preventing you

00:43:52   from using your Apple Pencil while it's connected.

00:43:54   It's just, it's certainly not ideal though,

00:43:57   compared to something that can fold all the way around.

00:44:00   - Yeah, and like the whole question is like,

00:44:02   is the kickstand worth it or, and this is,

00:44:05   I tried to, I didn't do this really elegantly,

00:44:07   but like, there's nothing essential

00:44:11   about the shape of the iPad

00:44:12   or the shape of the Magic Keyboard.

00:44:14   Apple could have chosen other things.

00:44:17   So the Brydge Keyboard, for example,

00:44:19   it is a proper laptop,

00:44:20   and it has these really, really strong clips.

00:44:25   And so when it's all put together, it feels fine,

00:44:27   but getting the iPad in and out of it's really awkward.

00:44:30   And so that's pretty inelegant.

00:44:32   There are other ways they could have chosen

00:44:34   to construct this thing as a physical object

00:44:37   that might have solved some of these problems,

00:44:39   but it would have ended up with trade-offs,

00:44:41   And it's really clear to me that the number one thing

00:44:44   they wanted to do with this design

00:44:46   was make a good keyboard.

00:44:47   And everything else, drawing, watching a movie on it,

00:44:51   whatever else you might want to do was secondary to,

00:44:54   let's have a big, flat, solid metal base

00:44:57   so that it feels rock solid,

00:44:58   and then let's put a really good magic keyboard on it.

00:45:01   And that's what it's for.

00:45:04   And then everything else had to wait after that.

00:45:07   - So here's another thing,

00:45:08   And it's like sort of unfortunate timing for Apple

00:45:12   that this thing came out in the midst of this pandemic

00:45:16   that has everybody doing 10 times or more video conferences

00:45:21   than they've ever done before.

00:45:24   The camera, I mean, famously, Joanna Stern

00:45:31   just did a whole video about how terrible laptop cameras are

00:45:34   and the new MacBook Air camera in particular

00:45:37   and that saying that it's 720p resolution

00:45:40   doesn't even get to how bad it is in low light.

00:45:43   It has nothing to do with resolution, it's just bad.

00:45:45   And iPads have really good FaceTime cameras,

00:45:48   the front-facing camera.

00:45:50   And so if you're just going to do a FaceTime or a Zoom call,

00:45:54   you're gonna get a much better picture quality of yourself

00:45:57   from an iPad than you are from any MacBook.

00:46:02   But it's over on the side.

00:46:05   And so it really exacerbates this sort of,

00:46:10   I don't know, you just look, you're looking right at it,

00:46:12   you're fully engaged, and it looks like you're reading

00:46:15   email or Twitter off on the side

00:46:17   because your eyes are way off center.

00:46:20   - And if you decide you do want to read email

00:46:22   or Twitter off the side, most video conferencing apps,

00:46:25   especially Zoom, I think all of them actually,

00:46:27   completely narc on you by turning off your video

00:46:30   because the iPad is super secure and any app

00:46:32   that isn't the front most is not allowed

00:46:34   to have the camera lit up.

00:46:35   - Right. (laughs)

00:46:37   I didn't even think about that aspect, but yeah.

00:46:39   - Yeah, it's a huge hassle.

00:46:41   (laughing)

00:46:44   - I've been trying to spy on my son,

00:46:47   who's in 10th grade, doing quote unquote Zoom school.

00:46:51   And it seems like they pay attention,

00:46:54   but there is absolutely a back channel.

00:46:56   (laughs)

00:46:57   - Oh yeah, for sure.

00:47:00   - I've said this, they've straightened it out.

00:47:02   It was like day one, day one of Zoom school,

00:47:04   they got a Zoom bomber,

00:47:06   and the back channel went crazy.

00:47:09   The one kid photoshopped like a wanted poster for the guy.

00:47:12   And he didn't do anything.

00:47:13   He didn't speak up.

00:47:15   He didn't do anything inappropriate.

00:47:16   He didn't put any porno into the video.

00:47:19   He just sat there and listened to them

00:47:21   talk about English literature.

00:47:24   And the teacher apparently didn't notice,

00:47:26   but all the kids noticed that a 25-year-old man

00:47:29   was just creeping on their English class.

00:47:31   - God. - You know, and then the school

00:47:34   quickly, you know, it became a thing where we all,

00:47:36   all the parents got email and again,

00:47:38   nothing inappropriate even happened,

00:47:40   but you know, and they're like,

00:47:41   we're gonna change our policy and have, you know,

00:47:45   I forget what, I don't know if they have passwords

00:47:47   or if the teacher is white listing who's in,

00:47:49   yeah, they fixed it, but.

00:47:51   - Yeah, there's a mix of fixes they've instituted.

00:47:54   They've been updating the thing almost weekly now.

00:47:57   They just, I think they just put out version 5.0.

00:48:00   The big hassle for me is to fix this camera problem.

00:48:03   I had to buy a really nice video camera

00:48:05   and you can use software like Cam Twist or OSB

00:48:09   to make a virtual webcam out of any camera that you want

00:48:13   or out of any window you want, literally anything.

00:48:16   But the Zoom set it up so that it no longer

00:48:19   will accept virtual webcams 'cause it's using

00:48:22   some other more standard Apple library

00:48:24   that is a little bit more locked down.

00:48:26   And so there are people that are now,

00:48:28   because they so desperately need virtual webcams

00:48:31   to run their classroom or, you know,

00:48:33   just because they want to have a nicer looking camera,

00:48:35   you either have to like downgrade your Zoom

00:48:37   to something more insecure,

00:48:39   or you can go in and remove the code signing on the Zoom app

00:48:43   and then it will accept virtual webcams.

00:48:45   So the thing is like Zoom got super successful

00:48:49   because it was, you know,

00:48:50   it did a whole bunch of growth hacks and it was way easier.

00:48:53   And they also played fast and loose with security.

00:48:55   Now that they're doing the right thing,

00:48:57   They brought on Alex Stamos from Facebook

00:48:59   to be a consultant, all this stuff.

00:49:01   People are still like, "Well, I'm still gonna disable

00:49:04   "some of your security 'cause I wanna do a thing with it."

00:49:06   - Yeah, I've heard from a couple people

00:49:10   who are having great success with iPhones

00:49:12   as their virtual web cameras.

00:49:14   Again, it's like, all right, the world is short

00:49:18   of commercial or domestic toilet paper,

00:49:22   and okay, I get it.

00:49:23   Everybody gets it, where everybody's pooping at home

00:49:26   instead of pooping at school or in the office

00:49:28   or wherever else we've gone to the bathroom.

00:49:30   And so, yeah, yeah, it makes sense.

00:49:32   The run on webcams, it makes sense,

00:49:36   but it's like, if you worked at the webcam industry,

00:49:41   you're like a webcam supply chain person at Logitech

00:49:45   or one of these companies.

00:49:47   Like, who would have thought that your job

00:49:49   would become a pants-on-fire company-wide emergency in 2020?

00:49:55   - Well, and Logitech, they know it's bad for their brand,

00:49:59   so they're talking to every retailer they can

00:50:01   trying to stop price gouging.

00:50:03   They can't stop it on eBay, but they'll like,

00:50:05   they're hunting for Logitech cameras on Amazon every day

00:50:10   and issuing takedown notices,

00:50:11   'cause they don't like the look

00:50:12   of one of their cameras being sold for $600.

00:50:15   - Right, it's bad enough that they're out, right?

00:50:18   Because it's like, oh, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth,

00:50:21   'cause you need it.

00:50:22   It's all of a sudden your professional image

00:50:25   is being hindered because you don't have a quality webcam.

00:50:30   And yeah, it stinks, you can't get a Logitech one.

00:50:33   But then when you see one being sold

00:50:34   for three or four times the price,

00:50:37   it's like, oh my God, this is terrible.

00:50:39   It feels, you know.

00:50:40   Literally is like a black market.

00:50:45   It's not good.

00:50:46   But anyway, who would have thought

00:50:48   that would have been a go-go industry in 2020,

00:50:52   but here we are.

00:50:53   - Not me.

00:50:55   - Anything else on the iPad Magic Keyboard

00:50:57   before we take a break?

00:50:59   - Man, I don't think so.

00:51:01   The one thing is the charging port.

00:51:05   It doesn't do data, but it does charging.

00:51:08   I've got a little USB meter,

00:51:10   and it charges almost as fast as just plugging it in directly

00:51:13   which I did not expect through those little pogo pins

00:51:15   on the back.

00:51:16   It's like, it's just a couple of watts shy.

00:51:19   - So I totally blew that in my review initially.

00:51:22   And I don't know how, because I did measure it.

00:51:25   And I think that where I went wrong

00:51:27   was that I was measuring it while still using it.

00:51:31   And that maybe I was doing something that was doing,

00:51:33   like while I had it plugged in directly

00:51:37   in the side of the iPad,

00:51:38   I was doing something more intensive

00:51:41   when I had it plugged into the Magic Keyboard thing.

00:51:44   but I wrote in my review that it was

00:51:46   a significant difference in charging speed.

00:51:48   And that's what I got in my notes.

00:51:50   I really did, but I was totally wrong.

00:51:52   And Apple even reached out to me

00:51:54   in the very kind and nice way that Apple PR does,

00:51:58   where they're like, "Hey, we loved your review."

00:52:01   And I'm like, "Wait, why are we on the phone?"

00:52:02   (laughing)

00:52:03   But, you know, you said this,

00:52:06   that's actually, the team thinks

00:52:09   that that's not the way it's supposed to be.

00:52:11   I was like, "Well, I'll look again."

00:52:12   And I looked again and did it,

00:52:13   it's exactly what you said. It's, I don't know, maybe like 85% the speed, you know?

00:52:18   Yeah, it's like 21 watts versus like 25.

00:52:22   Yeah, it's really good, which is excellent. And it's, so I rejiggered that part of my review and

00:52:29   crossed, you know, used the actual strike through HTML thing so that I wasn't weaseling, you know,

00:52:34   I didn't want anybody to feel like I was gaslighting them. Like, I thought Gruberth

00:52:37   said that it was slow. I was like, no, no, I'm wrong. But I need to, it was so wrong,

00:52:41   I need to post like some kind of minor separate update to just say hey, this is actually a great way to charge the thing

00:52:46   Yeah, I mean that's that's that's how I charge it every night now

00:52:50   I just set it on there pick it up in the morning. Yeah. Yeah, it would be I don't know why they can't do data

00:52:55   It you know

00:52:57   It's I get I'm sure there's some kind of technical reason there that it's not really USB. It's just some proprietary

00:53:04   It would be cool if you could

00:53:06   But yeah, I think it's actually pretty much just USB

00:53:10   Which is why it's so bonkers that nobody but Logitech has ever bothered to make anything for it

00:53:15   Like I don't I don't think it's part of the MFI program

00:53:18   none of that, I think it's just that the the

00:53:22   Cost of making a part to work with the smart connector is so high that

00:53:28   You you have to have a high degree of confidence that you're going to be able to continue to make that thing for

00:53:33   Many many years and I think the iPad changes form factor often enough that only Apple is willing to sink that

00:53:40   That initial development cost in them. That's my hunch

00:53:43   I don't actually know but it is very strange if you if you really look around there's nothing that uses the smart connector

00:53:50   Yeah, but it is true. It is a little confusing

00:53:54   I find that as somebody who like I just said a couple minutes ago

00:53:57   I have for quite a long time been a a Bluetooth iPad user with

00:54:02   iPad, Bluetooth keyboard user with my iPad.

00:54:07   And it's nice for just walking around with the iPad again,

00:54:09   but then every time you go to type,

00:54:11   you have to remember to toggle Bluetooth on and off

00:54:13   or hit the button, you know,

00:54:14   you have to do something to get it to disconnect

00:54:16   from the keyboard if you haven't left the range.

00:54:19   And these days, I never leave Bluetooth range.

00:54:22   It's so nice.

00:54:25   It sounds like such a bizarre thing to complain about,

00:54:27   but it's so nice that it's not Bluetooth,

00:54:30   And so it's if it's connected it's connected and if it's not physically connected

00:54:34   It's not physically connected which makes you wonder why there aren't more peripherals that use it because it's so nice

00:54:40   Convenience wise but there aren't yeah, I don't know

00:54:44   Anyway, let's take a break and I will thank our first sponsor. It's our good friends at Linode l-i-n-o-d-e

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00:56:49   Alright next up iPhone SE and conveniently you also wrote the verges review of the iPhone SE

00:56:56   Yeah

00:56:58   this might have been my first iPhone review for the verse usually a neil i doesn't does them all but I

00:57:02   Had a little bit more space in my video time than he did

00:57:07   It is such an interesting product and I

00:57:13   Like it. I think it's I think it's a really great little thing

00:57:18   I think it's just what the doctor ordered for an awful lot of iPhone users

00:57:25   But it is also the strangest

00:57:28   Phone I think any company will release this year because I don't think any company but Apple could possibly

00:57:35   Release a phone like this. I

00:57:38   Mean it I

00:57:41   Agree it's it's a it's funny the it actually had to restrain myself

00:57:48   from like certain kinds of praise because I just I know that in a few

00:57:53   years it may not age as well as it feels right now but the idea that you could

00:58:01   get a phone of this quality that can do these things for $400 is it's just

00:58:08   shocking it's it's so incredibly good it's a mix of things that are two and a

00:58:16   and a half years old, like just the way it looks,

00:58:19   the display, the display gets a lot of that attention

00:58:22   because so much, and we'll get to this

00:58:24   when we talk about Android phones too,

00:58:25   but for obvious reasons, it is the most obvious thing

00:58:29   that the whole point of the last 14, 13 years

00:58:34   of smartphone design is that they are quote, unquote,

00:58:37   all display, and slowly but surely,

00:58:40   as they've evolved across the board,

00:58:44   they've actually gotten more and more all display.

00:58:47   Like the 20, the original iPhone at the time seemed like,

00:58:52   oh my God, it's all display, there's only one button.

00:58:54   Whereas now the screen to surface area ratio

00:58:58   of the original iPhone seems comically small

00:59:01   for this display.

00:59:03   Well, by modern standards, meaning 2020,

00:59:06   the new iPhone SE has very large chin and forehead.

00:59:11   I mean, you just don't--

00:59:13   - There's no getting around it.

00:59:14   - There's no getting around it.

00:59:16   - So, the immediate response to that complaint is,

00:59:20   well, you know that that was how they got the price down.

00:59:23   Is like they were able to use the factories

00:59:25   they've had online since 2014 or whatever

00:59:28   to just keep making this thing

00:59:30   and they didn't have to retool anything,

00:59:31   which I get, but that also is not my problem.

00:59:36   - Right, right.

00:59:38   - It's, I've used plenty of Android phones

00:59:41   that cost this little.

00:59:42   There's many reasons why they're not as good as this,

00:59:44   to be clear, where they do manage to reduce the bezel.

00:59:48   Now, in order to do that, Apple would have to make

00:59:52   one of basically three choices.

00:59:54   Number one, they'd have to decide to reduce it on the top.

00:59:58   Well, number one, they'd have to retool everything.

01:00:00   Assume they're willing to retool.

01:00:02   They'd either need to reduce the bezel on the top

01:00:04   but leave the big home button on the bottom,

01:00:06   and then it would look asymmetrical and weird.

01:00:07   - And they wouldn't do that.

01:00:08   I guarantee you that's out. - They wouldn't do that.

01:00:09   Nope, no way.

01:00:11   They'd have to put the fingerprint sensor on the back,

01:00:13   which is what a lot of Android phones have done for years.

01:00:16   I don't know if they'd be willing to do that.

01:00:18   Or they would need to spend the extra money

01:00:20   to do an in-screen fingerprint sensor,

01:00:23   which even in the best of cases is not really that great.

01:00:27   And or number four, they'd have to just switch to Face ID,

01:00:30   which would have, again, added a ton of cost.

01:00:33   - Yeah, and so on number three,

01:00:35   putting the fingerprint sensor in-screen.

01:00:37   I wouldn't say that that's something Apple,

01:00:41   that's a great list, 'cause I feel like,

01:00:43   A, that list is comprehensive.

01:00:45   So the asymmetrical chin and forehead

01:00:48   is something Apple would not do.

01:00:50   I don't even think they would do it a little.

01:00:52   Like, and to a degree that's almost irrational,

01:00:55   like when you look at a lot of the flagship Android phones

01:00:59   that are out there, where there's a little bit more

01:01:02   of a chin than the forehead,

01:01:04   and I don't think that's a particularly bad look,

01:01:07   especially if we're going to concede

01:01:11   that the Apple phones, since the iPhone X,

01:01:15   have a notch on the one side, right?

01:01:19   Like the notch, whatever you think of it,

01:01:21   is far more obtrusive and asymmetrical

01:01:26   than the fact that the bezel other than the notch on the top

01:01:31   is the same exact size as the bezel along the bottom

01:01:35   that doesn't have a notch.

01:01:36   but I mean, you know what I mean?

01:01:38   It's crazy that they're fanatical

01:01:41   about making the bezel symmetric on all four sides

01:01:44   when they were willing to use a notch

01:01:46   for the face ID array, but they are.

01:01:50   And there is something in Apple's internal design aesthetics

01:01:54   that I'm not even saying I agree with it,

01:01:56   but I can feel it in my teeth

01:02:00   that they feel that asymmetry in that way is wrong.

01:02:04   So they're not gonna do it.

01:02:06   The in-screen fingerprint thing, I think they would do in theory.

01:02:10   I think they might do going forward as an additional thing in addition to face ID.

01:02:15   I know there've been rumors along that line, but even without the rumors, I just feel like,

01:02:19   eh, if they could do it right, they might, but there's no way they would do it in an

01:02:24   SE.

01:02:25   Right?

01:02:26   Exactly.

01:02:27   Well, so there's a couple, I mean, one, it's expensive.

01:02:29   But two, I believe it requires that you use an OLED screen, not an LCD, because like the

01:02:35   needs to have a backlight, and if you have a backlight,

01:02:37   you can't put a fingerprint sensor underneath it, right?

01:02:38   - Oh yeah, that makes sense.

01:02:40   - It works with OLED.

01:02:41   There's actually a fifth option, which some phones do,

01:02:44   where they either integrate the fingerprint sensor

01:02:46   in the sleep/wake button on the side,

01:02:48   or they have it sort of next to it on the side

01:02:51   as a separate thing, and again,

01:02:53   I don't think Apple would ever do that,

01:02:55   because that completely changes the modalities

01:02:59   of what you expect iPhone buttons to do,

01:03:02   and I think they very much didn't want to introduce

01:03:04   a whole new interaction model into an iPhone SE

01:03:09   that wasn't there before.

01:03:11   - Yeah, and we'll have to get to that.

01:03:13   So yeah, I don't really think they had,

01:03:15   for the SE to be the SE and start at $400,

01:03:20   it sort of had to be this way.

01:03:23   - Yeah.

01:03:24   - But then the weird aspects of the trade-offs

01:03:27   that they're able to do because they're Apple

01:03:30   is that they're able to put the,

01:03:32   not just good, but literally best of industry A13 chip in.

01:03:37   - Yeah, you cannot buy an Android phone for any price

01:03:43   that has a faster processor than this $400 phone.

01:03:46   - And, so A, competitive with Android,

01:03:50   it is the fastest phone that you could get,

01:03:53   and it's only $400, and as I really,

01:03:57   I sort of enjoyed pointing out in my review,

01:04:00   it is faster at single-threaded performance

01:04:03   than a $3,000 16-inch MacBook Pro,

01:04:06   which is the best laptop chip that Apple makes available

01:04:10   in a MacBook Pro.

01:04:12   And I don't wanna go on a whole benchmark digression,

01:04:16   but single-threaded benchmark scores

01:04:18   are more important than multi-threaded

01:04:20   for most people in day-to-day use,

01:04:23   especially on a phone,

01:04:24   because you're just doing things like that.

01:04:26   The areas where multi-threaded performance

01:04:28   can really, really make a difference in your life

01:04:30   are professional contexts,

01:04:32   like you're rendering out 4K video or something like that.

01:04:37   The things where multithreaded can really make a difference

01:04:43   are professional contexts or developers,

01:04:46   like Xcode developers can really make use on build times

01:04:50   of having a whole number of cores.

01:04:52   Single-threaded performance really matters.

01:04:54   JavaScript, for example.

01:04:55   So anything you're doing on the web

01:04:57   where it's powered by JavaScript code.

01:04:59   It's always single-threaded, and so it matters.

01:05:02   And it's $400. (laughs)

01:05:04   It's kinda crazy.

01:05:05   The camera is really good for a single-lens camera,

01:05:10   and it has features like the portrait mode stuff

01:05:14   that are really quite remarkable,

01:05:18   and it's $400.

01:05:20   It's a really good camera.

01:05:22   - Yeah, so actually the two things that make me go,

01:05:27   ah, about the iPhone SE is,

01:05:31   and honestly the only things that keep me

01:05:33   from just straight up calling it a triumph are,

01:05:36   will the camera and the battery in particular

01:05:41   feel like they hold up in two or three years?

01:05:44   And I'm like complaining,

01:05:45   will this phone be good in three years as a complaint

01:05:47   seems kind of silly given how long Android phones

01:05:50   at this price point tend to last.

01:05:52   But just in terms of like in the context of iPhones

01:05:54   and recommending iPhones, it is a thing to notice.

01:05:58   So iFixit did their tear down, went up Monday morning,

01:06:02   they were recording this,

01:06:04   and the battery is exactly the same.

01:06:05   In fact, you can swap out the iPhone 8 battery.

01:06:08   It's the exact same size battery.

01:06:09   And we know that those batteries, you know,

01:06:11   start to degrade after a while.

01:06:13   And the thing that shocked me,

01:06:14   given the quality of the camera,

01:06:16   is it seems like the iPhone SE

01:06:20   has the exact same camera module as the iPhone 8.

01:06:24   I thought it maybe had the 10R camera module,

01:06:26   but you can swap in the iPhone 8 camera module

01:06:29   and it just works.

01:06:30   - I thought that it did too.

01:06:31   And that's an error in my iPhone SE review.

01:06:34   I didn't say for a fact that it had the sensor from the 10R,

01:06:38   but I kinda thought that it did.

01:06:40   And I took side-by-side photos

01:06:42   within tough lighting conditions.

01:06:43   And it was like, "It looks the same."

01:06:46   - Yeah, so this isn't like guaranteed

01:06:49   they haven't done the full X-ray and taken apart this actual sensor module, but you can one for one

01:06:53   swap it out with the iPhone 8, which is a pretty good sign that it's probably the same, or very,

01:06:59   very close. It looks like it's a little bit smaller than a XR module when you look at the photos.

01:07:04   And that is a thing to be concerned about long-term, it might not hold up as well,

01:07:09   but it is a thing to absolutely marvel at in terms of the camera quality that they have

01:07:14   right now, you know, when they said we put the A13 in it,

01:07:18   therefore the pictures are gonna be better.

01:07:19   I was like, yeah, we'll see.

01:07:22   - Yeah, I thought the same thing.

01:07:23   - But if it's using a sensor or something

01:07:27   that's virtually equivalent to the sensor of the iPhone 8,

01:07:30   and it's able to get, you know,

01:07:32   the quality of photos that come out of this thing,

01:07:34   I'm shocked at how good it is.

01:07:36   My only, you know, I think it's pretty bad in low light.

01:07:38   I think it actually falls down like a steeper cliff

01:07:41   in low light than an iPhone 11 does, for example,

01:07:45   or even, maybe even a XR.

01:07:47   But other than that, there's really not a whole lot

01:07:50   to complain about.

01:07:51   - Yeah, and it doesn't do night mode.

01:07:54   - Right, which is weird, isn't it?

01:07:56   - Yeah, because I, so it does have the full array

01:08:01   of portrait mode modes for lack of a sub-mode and port,

01:08:07   you know, lighting effects, I guess we could call them,

01:08:09   in portrait mode.

01:08:11   And the ones that mask out the background,

01:08:14   whatever Apple calls them, I always forget,

01:08:17   but the ones that just isolate you, the person,

01:08:20   and mask out the background as black or white,

01:08:24   the stage light ones and high key light ones,

01:08:27   the other phones they've had don't do that

01:08:33   because it's, I guess, computationally

01:08:35   or machine learning wise expensive,

01:08:38   and with the A13, they're able to do it,

01:08:40   and the results are really good.

01:08:43   And I put it in a footnote in my review,

01:08:47   but I kind of like, eh, not really use those modes

01:08:51   since they were new.

01:08:52   Not that I never used them, but I don't use them as much.

01:08:55   And I realized, I was saying that other people may not,

01:08:58   but what I really was doing was writing about myself,

01:09:00   is that the live preview in the camera is rough,

01:09:04   and then you snap your self-portrait,

01:09:06   like with the selfie mode and the high-key lighting,

01:09:10   and it doesn't look good as you're taking it,

01:09:12   and then you give it a second or two to process,

01:09:15   and you get, you can, not always,

01:09:17   sometimes it's funky and your glasses are off

01:09:20   or your ear's not right or something,

01:09:22   but more often than not, it's actually really credible

01:09:26   and 100 times better than the preview would suggest.

01:09:30   - Yeah. - So I was like,

01:09:31   "Ah, this actually does deserve to be here,"

01:09:33   but if that's computational,

01:09:35   I thought that the night mode was purely computational,

01:09:39   and so the A13 would have allowed it and it doesn't.

01:09:43   And I don't know if that's just like deliberate marketing,

01:09:46   like well, like I'm sure it's not just a secret switch

01:09:51   they could flip to enable it,

01:09:52   but that they didn't spend time on it

01:09:53   because they didn't want the $400 phone to have it

01:09:57   for marketing reasons or--

01:09:59   - Yeah, I don't wanna ascribe that.

01:10:01   Like that's like one step too far down

01:10:04   like a conspiracy rabbit hole for me,

01:10:05   although I'm tempted to say it.

01:10:06   I think the fact that if it is in fact something similar

01:10:09   to the iPhone sensor, maybe that's a piece of the puzzle,

01:10:12   but the thing that they've done here

01:10:14   that they didn't do before the XR and the X

01:10:17   was they are doing, they're taking multiple,

01:10:20   multiple, multiple photos in whatever they call

01:10:23   their advanced HDR, like the foundation

01:10:25   of what computational photography is these days.

01:10:29   And they are doing that with this camera

01:10:32   and this A13 processor.

01:10:34   The one thing that they're not doing that's pretty modern

01:10:37   is their depth map, as far as I know,

01:10:41   is completely done via machine learning

01:10:43   just by like semantically looking at what's in the image

01:10:46   trying to guess it.

01:10:47   They're not doing the weird thing

01:10:49   where you can like do a differential

01:10:50   between like two sides of a pixel or whatever.

01:10:52   - Yeah, so let me just say before we go on,

01:10:56   my personal belief is not that it's marketing spite.

01:10:59   I just, I think that there is something

01:11:01   about this iPhone 8 era sensor

01:11:05   that does not makes it incompatible

01:11:07   with the way they do night mode.

01:11:09   And the fact that they didn't hold back

01:11:10   on the portrait mode stuff makes me think

01:11:12   that if they could have done it relatively easy,

01:11:14   they would have.

01:11:15   And the fact that the $1,000 plus iPad Pros

01:11:20   that they just came out with

01:11:22   don't have those portrait mode features,

01:11:26   but they do have an A12 series chip

01:11:30   makes me think that it really is A,

01:11:33   tied to the A13 specifically, which the SE has,

01:11:37   and even the new iPad Pros don't,

01:11:40   and needs a very recent sensor.

01:11:44   And so the iFED SE has this, the A13,

01:11:49   which enables the portrait mode stuff,

01:11:51   but can't do the night mode, so that's my theory.

01:11:53   But yeah, I feel like on a podcast,

01:11:55   you have to toss it out, you know, as who knows.

01:11:57   - Yeah, oh, sure, yeah.

01:11:58   And again, like, I cannot wait for someone

01:12:01   to actually like break the metal on this thing

01:12:03   look directly at the sensor and confirm that it is the same because it might not be. It might be

01:12:08   something slightly different, but the fact that you could just swap the part out seems like a

01:12:13   pretty good sign. It's crazy. The other thing with the SE that it, so Apple is so different than any

01:12:20   other phone maker. I mean, they control their own OS, which is the thing everybody thinks about and

01:12:25   is the most notable aspect. But the little things like it's just underappreciated that they make

01:12:32   their own chips and that their chip team is like seriously like years ahead of the competition.

01:12:39   It's really a strange situation that doesn't have any historical comparison

01:12:45   and enables them to put a top-of-the-line chip in a $400 phone. Yeah, well and also like nobody else

01:12:56   has, I mean Samsung sells a shit ton of phones don't get me wrong, but nobody else has the

01:13:00   economy of scale to be like, well, we're already making so many of these 813s anyway, it would

01:13:06   probably cost us more to put a lower end chip in it and keep that production line spun up

01:13:11   just for this phone than it would to just use our top of the line one that we're already

01:13:14   making anyway.

01:13:16   Nobody else could do that.

01:13:18   So one of the downsides that Apple faces, though, is that they just don't make many

01:13:23   phones, model-wise, right?

01:13:26   So they, you know.

01:13:28   And even if you count, and people underestimate this, when you go to apple.com or when you

01:13:34   go into the actual Apple store, when the Apple stores are open, and you see what they have

01:13:41   on the table, they've got now, they've got the SE, the XR, and the iPhone 11, and then

01:13:47   the 11 Pros, and that's it.

01:13:50   But they still make a lot of the other ones from recent years.

01:13:54   still in man being manufactured and they're sold quote unquote in the channel like if you go to

01:13:59   Best Buy there's a lot more iPhones available like the iPhone 10s and 10s max and you know you could

01:14:07   buy I don't think they still make the original 10 anymore but you could you could buy it for years

01:14:11   after it was out of Apple's official lineup now you can even there I don't know if they're still

01:14:16   making it but in channel the iPhone 8 plus is still out there in the world uh I think they

01:14:22   might still be making it and if they're not making it making it they they stockpiled it because somebody

01:14:27   somebody had it in their review that that it's officially in the channel

01:14:33   because they don't have a home screen iphone in the plus size that's called the se there is no se plus

01:14:41   right but that means though that apple has to always kind of has to try to kill multiple

01:14:50   market segment birds with one stone.

01:14:53   And there's, the SE is trying to do

01:14:57   a bunch of things at once, right?

01:14:59   It's the low-cost new phone that will have

01:15:02   technical relevance for years to come.

01:15:04   Like you're gonna get four or five years

01:15:06   of software updates for an SE that you buy tomorrow.

01:15:09   - Yep.

01:15:10   - It's only 400 bucks, right?

01:15:12   And again, maybe for a lot of people,

01:15:15   400 bucks still sounds like a lot for a phone.

01:15:18   But it's not a lot for a new iPhone,

01:15:20   and that's their answer to that.

01:15:22   But then there's also the segment,

01:15:26   I know people toss out their mom as a quote unquote,

01:15:31   example of a technically unsavvy person,

01:15:34   but my mom really is the perfect target

01:15:38   for the new iPhone SE.

01:15:40   She has a 6 or a 6S, I forget which one,

01:15:43   but at the very newest it's a 6S.

01:15:46   Her battery is failing, and it's usable,

01:15:49   but it's like she doesn't get through a day,

01:15:51   and she doesn't do anything.

01:15:52   So she leaves the house, her phone is in the red

01:15:56   by the time she comes home from a day out.

01:16:00   And I've been telling her, you should wait.

01:16:03   And now, in the last couple of weeks,

01:16:05   it's been really easy to tell her she could wait.

01:16:08   She doesn't want news.

01:16:09   She wants, and she's gotten, and Apple has her numbers,

01:16:14   She's gotten the email to her mac.com address

01:16:17   with telling her about the SE,

01:16:19   and she's like, "This is what I want."

01:16:20   And I'm like, "Mom, that's the one I've been telling you.

01:16:23   "You should wait for her."

01:16:24   But she loves that it looks like the phone

01:16:27   she already knows.

01:16:28   That is a market segment.

01:16:31   And the touch ID versus face ID thing is huge.

01:16:37   There are millions of people who just,

01:16:40   because they've never used face ID

01:16:42   and it sounds weird to have your phone

01:16:45   facially recognize you, they want a fingerprint sensor.

01:16:49   And so the Apple's trying to sell something to this market

01:16:53   and the fact that for all of we enthusiasts

01:16:57   who think that it looks dated,

01:16:59   that it has this chin and forehead

01:17:01   that go back to the iPhone 6,

01:17:03   is comforting to people who just want a new phone

01:17:07   that's faster and has a fresh battery

01:17:10   and works exactly like they did.

01:17:12   You know, the SE is trying to do all those things at once.

01:17:14   Yeah, and it's a lot and the fact that it's able to pull off most of that stuff, or all of it actually, is really impressive.

01:17:21   It's funny, I made a joke of this in my video, but I forgot how much I liked the home button.

01:17:28   It gets really nice. Actually, it's not even just the home button.

01:17:33   It's swiping up from the bottom for control center.

01:17:37   I'm so used to that at home, for going home now,

01:17:39   that it felt really, really weird to swipe up

01:17:42   and have control center pop up.

01:17:44   But it's just, it's such a larger target of a swipe

01:17:49   than that upper right-hand corner

01:17:51   that as soon as I went back to it and after a day,

01:17:54   it's like, oh yeah, I prefer this in a funny way.

01:17:57   Now, I would never want to go back

01:17:58   to not having the full gesture navigation

01:18:01   and swiping up from the bottom

01:18:02   is the appropriate way to do that, to go home.

01:18:04   It is like the thing you want to be the easiest.

01:18:07   So it makes sense. Apple made the right call there.

01:18:10   But you know, just like for a little while,

01:18:12   at least it's nice to like just have easier access

01:18:15   to control center.

01:18:16   - Yeah, I kind of feel, you know, and there's, you know,

01:18:19   I've heard it from home button diehards

01:18:23   who are enthusiasts because they read Daring Fireball

01:18:26   and follow me on Twitter and that they're, you know,

01:18:28   oh yeah, I forgot the other market that this has been to,

01:18:30   Pease, is the people who want the smallest possible iPhone.

01:18:33   - Right, well, I didn't bring it up

01:18:36   because it's not, I mean, it is the smallest possible iPhone,

01:18:38   but that's not necessarily saying much.

01:18:40   - Right, right, but, you know,

01:18:42   and those people are really, you know,

01:18:45   heartsick that it wasn't iPhone 5-sized,

01:18:50   which is what they really want.

01:18:51   They wanted a new SE that looked like the old SE,

01:18:53   which looked like an iPhone 5.

01:18:55   And I tried to explain that a week or two ago

01:18:59   on "Daring Fireball" as to why that isn't really aligned

01:19:02   with Apple's strategy, even though that's a reasonable idea.

01:19:06   And if Apple made seven different iPhones at a time,

01:19:09   maybe one of them would still be that size.

01:19:12   But I think all the developers that are looking forward

01:19:15   to dropping that from their UI support are like, no, no.

01:19:19   Really, fewer screen sizes would be a little better.

01:19:33   So the one thing about the iPhone X style,

01:19:36   I wish we had a name for it.

01:19:37   You know, like when Mac OS X first shipped

01:19:41   and they had the, way back in like 2001 or 2002,

01:19:46   whatever year it was,

01:19:47   Steve Jobs introduced the new user interface.

01:19:50   They gave it a name, they called it Aqua.

01:19:52   And Aqua was that look and feel that they,

01:19:56   you know, it looked so good you could lick it.

01:19:57   And it's, you know, had this,

01:19:59   it just, it was nice to have a name for it.

01:20:03   It would be nice if we had a name

01:20:05   for the iPhone 10-style interface

01:20:08   where you swipe up from the bottom

01:20:09   and control center's in the top right.

01:20:11   Some things are the same,

01:20:15   but some things are fundamentally different.

01:20:17   And I've gone back and forth in my writing

01:20:22   calling it the post-iPhone 10 interface or whatever.

01:20:27   I get it why Apple hasn't named it.

01:20:29   They just sort of want you not to think about it.

01:20:31   But when you do write about it,

01:20:32   There's nothing to call it.

01:20:33   But the one thing that,

01:20:34   to me it's like fitting jigsaw puzzle pieces together

01:20:38   as designers, and I feel like Apple was like,

01:20:40   okay, we don't have a button anymore.

01:20:42   What can we do?

01:20:43   Well, we could swipe up from the bottom

01:20:45   like WebOS used to do.

01:20:47   I don't know if you remember that, Dieter.

01:20:49   - Do you think?

01:20:50   Yeah, I vaguely remember WebOS.

01:20:53   (laughing)

01:20:55   - You could swipe up from the bottom

01:20:56   and your apps would look like cards,

01:20:58   and then you could go side to side.

01:21:00   And you start fitting in all these things

01:21:02   that the home button and touch ID used to do.

01:21:05   And it's like, well, what about if you wanna authorize

01:21:07   a purchase and you're looking at the phone already?

01:21:10   Well, you could double click the power button

01:21:12   after face ID identifies you.

01:21:14   And they're like, okay, that's not perfect, but that works.

01:21:18   And then I feel like the one puzzle piece

01:21:20   that was left over was control center, right?

01:21:25   It's like top down was notifications and it still is.

01:21:29   And bottom up now is home screen and multitasking.

01:21:34   And the sides mean other things.

01:21:38   Like the left side is how you go back in an app.

01:21:42   And it's like they had this puzzle piece,

01:21:44   and they're like, well, you could go down

01:21:46   from the top right corner where the wifi

01:21:50   and cellular signal strength is,

01:21:52   because that's where the wifi and signal strength things are,

01:21:56   control center.

01:21:58   Also, that's, just gonna say, that's how WebOS did it.

01:22:02   (laughing)

01:22:04   - Well, maybe that, maybe that's,

01:22:08   wouldn't you like to think that there's somebody

01:22:10   on the team who was working on that who was at Palm,

01:22:12   you know, 10, 11 years ago,

01:22:15   who was just like, just keeps raising their hand?

01:22:18   (laughing)

01:22:20   - By the way, we solved this problem once before.

01:22:22   - Well, no, maybe, I'd like to think

01:22:23   that maybe the way they sold it internally

01:22:25   was they didn't even mention it.

01:22:26   They were like, "How about?"

01:22:28   (both laughing)

01:22:30   They're like, "Well, that could work."

01:22:32   It is, it's just, it's not,

01:22:36   ill-fitting puzzle piece is not quite right,

01:22:41   but it still, it just feels overloaded

01:22:45   at the top of the screen that it's--

01:22:46   - Well, so the way Android solves this is it just,

01:22:49   it combines those two things.

01:22:50   There's a quick settings area that comes down,

01:22:53   and then the notification shade is attached to that.

01:22:55   And so you can expand the quick settings

01:22:57   or the notification shade.

01:22:58   So the entire top of the Android phone

01:23:01   is both of those things.

01:23:02   And what you see when it comes down

01:23:04   depends on how many times you swipe down.

01:23:06   - Yeah, well, neither is great.

01:23:09   There's trade-offs with both.

01:23:10   But yeah, it's weird.

01:23:13   I had a really hard time with it

01:23:16   when I was trying to use the SE for a week

01:23:18   where I just kept going top right

01:23:20   'cause I've really ingrained it into my habits.

01:23:25   The one that I just could not,

01:23:28   a few of the things I just could not get used to

01:23:31   is I could not get used to the fact

01:23:32   that you can't tap the screen anywhere to wake it up.

01:23:35   I-- - Yes.

01:23:36   - I just, I cannot tell you how many times

01:23:38   I thought the battery had died,

01:23:39   and I was like, wait, that might be a problem,

01:23:41   'cause I know I had like 60% battery,

01:23:44   and now this thing's dead.

01:23:46   - Yep.

01:23:47   But it does still have the accelerometer

01:23:49   where if you like, it feels that you picked it up

01:23:51   or it feels you pulled it out of your pocket,

01:23:53   it will light up the screen.

01:23:54   And so I couldn't just tap it on the table,

01:23:56   but I got the habit of just picking the thing up

01:23:58   to wake it up.

01:23:59   - Yeah, but it's, and maybe it's like a review thing too

01:24:02   where I'm spending a lot of time in a review at a keyboard,

01:24:07   and the iPad or iPhone I'm reviewing

01:24:10   is right there on the desk next to me,

01:24:12   but I wanna wake it up.

01:24:14   I just kept poking at it, didn't wake up.

01:24:16   I'm trying to think what else on the iPhone SE.

01:24:21   Anything else?

01:24:23   I mean, you can make fun of me for being sad

01:24:25   about the headphone jack.

01:24:25   - Ah. (laughs)

01:24:27   Well, I'm not gonna make fun.

01:24:28   I mean, at this point, I give you credit

01:24:31   for sticking with it, you know?

01:24:33   - Well, so the only reason on the iPhone SE in particular,

01:24:36   and maybe this is patronizing, maybe this is whatever,

01:24:41   is that a bunch of Android phones in this price class

01:24:45   make it a point to leave the headphone jack in

01:24:48   because they figure if you're price sensitive enough

01:24:50   to wanna spend that little on a phone,

01:24:52   you're price sensitive enough to not wanna have to go out

01:24:54   and spend 150 bucks on a pair of Bluetooth headphones.

01:24:58   - Yeah, and you know, that if you wanna get replacements,

01:25:03   you do just wanna pop into the drugstore

01:25:06   and get the $7 ones, you know, that you don't even,

01:25:09   you know, you just, you know that they work,

01:25:12   you can just look at it, you don't have to look for like

01:25:14   a works with iPhone logo or something, it's, you just,

01:25:17   you know, it just has a headphone jack,

01:25:19   you know it's gonna work.

01:25:21   know, and you also know you have a drawer full of them, even if you're not the sort of person

01:25:26   like us who has a drawer full of all sorts of cables. Everybody's got a drawer full of headphones.

01:25:31   Pete: I keep a stockpile of the original iPhone earbuds that, you know, nobody really likes

01:25:37   because they fall out of your ear just because it's the most reliable microphone I have for

01:25:44   conference calls. Like, last ditch, my Bluetooth headphones failed, blah blah blah blah. I just

01:25:48   grab those, plug it into my Mac, and know that I'm going to have reliable headphones

01:25:52   and a microphone for a conference call.

01:25:53   I used to have a stockpile of them because I've bought a bunch of, over the years, I

01:25:59   just wound up, how could you not, in my racket, wind up with a ton of them?

01:26:04   I owned a bunch of iPods.

01:26:07   By the mid-2000s, by the early end of the 2000s at least, I started doing reviews on

01:26:12   a regular basis and getting review units, and Apple doesn't even want the headphones

01:26:15   back when you send the review units back.

01:26:19   And I wouldn't even open the new ones.

01:26:20   I would just put them, you know,

01:26:22   keep them in a nice little case and put them aside.

01:26:25   I wound up going through my whole stockpile

01:26:27   because I'm not gonna name names,

01:26:29   but it was my son Jonas who slowly

01:26:32   but surely destroyed them all.

01:26:35   Because while there are good things to say about them

01:26:41   and the microphone is one of them,

01:26:43   the the

01:26:45   durability

01:26:46   Yeah, much like light apples lightning cables the durability of the connector where it goes in is not great

01:26:54   Nope

01:26:56   Once he found out which drawer I kept them in eventually I went in I was like, hey, there's no more of these left

01:27:02   And he's like, yeah, do you have any more of those and I was like, oh my god

01:27:07   But on the plus side we got him air pods for Christmas like two years ago two Christmases ago

01:27:13   And he hasn't lost them either of them and so kudos to him and it is completely alleviated

01:27:19   His destruction of my entire collection of apple branded

01:27:23   Keychains. All right. Let me take another break here and thank our other sponsor for this episode our good friends at squarespace

01:27:29   Hey squarespace make your next move. Look everybody's got a lot of extra time on their hands right now

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01:29:22   So let's, we don't have tons of time left, but let's talk Android. So I'm curious

01:29:26   to hear what you think are the flagships worth talking about in 2020 so far?

01:29:31   - So the most interesting stuff so far, there's a couple of Samsung Galaxy S20s,

01:29:37   the Ultra and the regular, and I put those in two different categories. Then there is the new

01:29:44   OnePlus 8 Pro, that's three, and then we're soon to have something from Motorola trying to make

01:29:51   a comeback. You know, there's a bunch of other stuff in and around all those, but those are like

01:29:56   the most interesting ones. I mean, the thing to know about Android flagships is they're all

01:30:01   completely dependent on Qualcomm processors, right? Like, Qualcomm has a monopoly in the US,

01:30:07   Samsung is doing its level best to break it with Exynos processors that it tries to sell

01:30:12   internationally, but like, in the US, it's just Qualcomm, and like, you get what Qualcomm gives

01:30:17   you, and what Qualcomm is giving Android manufacturers this year is the Snapdragon 865,

01:30:24   and then there's a 700 series.

01:30:26   And the 865 is notable because the 865 is the fastest one,

01:30:30   it's the one everybody's gonna want,

01:30:32   and it only works with 5G, there is no 4G version

01:30:35   because it has a separate modem from the processor,

01:30:40   which is weird, but that modem,

01:30:42   the only compatible modem is a 5G modem.

01:30:45   All of which is to say flagship Android phones

01:30:48   are just like every other phone, but especially this year,

01:30:51   they're coming in pretty expensive,

01:30:53   Even the quote-unquote cheap one like OnePlus is still you know, 800 bucks 900 bucks

01:30:57   um because they've got that

01:31:00   5g radio that costs a bit more money

01:31:02   um

01:31:04   And so that the cadence is also weird because you expect phones to come in the fall

01:31:08   But Qualcomm releases these processors basically in the spring

01:31:11   And so the first one out of the gate with them is usually Samsung with the Galaxy S line. So

01:31:15   uh this year

01:31:17   Samsung was trying to pull off two things. They were you know, this is the big year for 5g

01:31:22   It's a big year that 5G is actually real and matters and it's something you're gonna want. I think that's not true, but whatever

01:31:28   and so they they wanted to push 5g with the Galaxy s20 line and

01:31:32   Then they have in the galaxy s20 ultra which is the big big big one the huge one

01:31:37   They were trying to push this whole new camera system that has a periscope, you know

01:31:43   So there's a mirror that like pushes down so you can get extra zoom whatever but they also have a hundred and eight megapixel

01:31:49   camera sensor in it that Samsung makes instead of just using a Sony sensor, which is what everybody else has been doing for years

01:31:57   So Samsung really wanted to like we can we can do this whole thing ourselves now

01:32:01   and

01:32:03   The ultra is just like 1400 bucks

01:32:06   Turns out that 108 megapixel camera. They didn't figure it out like that. They couldn't they couldn't wrangle it

01:32:12   And so it's it's got really bad focus problems and it's just kind of meh

01:32:18   Whereas the galaxy s20 which has a less ambitious camera is just a great phone. It's really really good

01:32:24   It's it's probably my favorite Android phone of the past, you know, six months to a year. I really enjoy it

01:32:29   and then the story with one plus just to ramble get through the rest of the ramble here is

01:32:35   To date their whole shtick has been we give you a really good quality phone

01:32:41   But we hold back one or two features to save a bunch of money so you can get

01:32:45   Virtually the same quality as Samsung phone

01:32:48   But you can spend a few hundred dollars less for stuff you don't care about.

01:32:53   Usually that's something like wireless charging.

01:32:55   But this year, they decided they were going to take Samsung head on

01:32:59   by including wireless charging that's like super fast wireless charging.

01:33:03   It's really fascinating.

01:33:04   But also with working with more carriers.

01:33:07   So now it works with both T-Mobile and Verizon for the first time.

01:33:10   So they are really, really trying to come at Samsung's like dominant monopoly

01:33:16   in Android phones, I don't know if it's a monopoly,

01:33:21   but they've got a huge dominant position,

01:33:22   especially in the US,

01:33:23   and they're finally getting challenged head on.

01:33:25   - Yeah, well, yeah, monopoly's,

01:33:28   it's like a lowercase m monopoly, right?

01:33:30   It's sort of like Apple's monopoly on iPhones,

01:33:33   where they don't have 50% of the market share of the phones,

01:33:36   but they do have the only iPhones,

01:33:38   and the only phones running iOS.

01:33:40   And Samsung's monopoly is sort of like mental monopoly,

01:33:44   you know, on high-end, state-of-the-art flagship Android phones. I mean, however you want to

01:33:50   describe flagship, you know, Samsung has sort of had like a, they're at the forefront of this.

01:33:56   - Yeah, and Huawei was coming for them until that whole, all went to hell, but the reason Samsung

01:34:01   has that monopoly on the high end is because they've spent the past 20 years, like, forming

01:34:08   relationships with carriers and cutting deals with carriers in the US. And so when Verizon wants to

01:34:13   to have a new phone, Samsung is at the door

01:34:16   with a suitcase full of 10 of them.

01:34:17   - Yeah, so the 108 megapixel phone,

01:34:22   I still don't really understand how,

01:34:25   if most phones have 12 megapixels

01:34:28   and how it jumps up to 108,

01:34:30   because it's sort of like a funny definition of megapixels.

01:34:34   - Yeah, so they bin it down to, I think, 12 most of the time

01:34:40   So they combine all the megapixels together

01:34:44   into one larger pixel.

01:34:46   But the way the sub-pixels work is a little bit fuzzy

01:34:50   in terms of what the RGB is.

01:34:52   And so it's not quite exactly like one-to-one

01:34:55   what you would expect, you just get RGB

01:34:57   and then multiply it times never megapixels you have.

01:35:01   But the way the binning works,

01:35:04   the way that they combine those pixels

01:35:07   in like really solid conditions,

01:35:09   you do actually get a really high megapixel image

01:35:11   that does have a little bit more detail.

01:35:14   The problem comes is you don't actually want,

01:35:16   you're not shooting in perfectly bright light

01:35:18   with a perfectly still camera on a tripod 99% of the time.

01:35:21   And so what you wanna do is you wanna combine

01:35:24   all of those pixels in the hardware in some way

01:35:27   so that it acts more like a manageable

01:35:29   12 or 16 megapixel sensor.

01:35:32   And they just didn't get it.

01:35:34   They weren't able to wrangle all that stuff.

01:35:37   Like the thing that makes the Samsung Galaxy S20 Ultra,

01:35:41   terrible name, oh, there's a 5G in there somewhere too.

01:35:43   (laughing)

01:35:45   The thing that makes that camera good

01:35:47   in so far as it's good is it's just a larger sensor.

01:35:51   It's just physically bigger

01:35:52   and that makes a huge difference.

01:35:53   - And that's sort of in even lay person's terms,

01:35:57   bigger sensor is in and of itself is always better.

01:36:02   It just means, 'cause it means more light hits the sensor

01:36:04   and doesn't even matter how you count the pixels,

01:36:07   it's bigger sensors better.

01:36:08   And it even goes back to the film days

01:36:11   where the large format cameras

01:36:14   that professional fashion photographers would use

01:36:16   or landscape photographers like Ansel Adams,

01:36:19   you could just get these fantastic images

01:36:21   out of this enormous compared to a 35 millimeter

01:36:24   frame of film negative.

01:36:27   - But so the dynamic with especially flagship Android phones

01:36:31   is really interesting and I think different than iPhone.

01:36:35   So everybody's cycle is slowing down,

01:36:37   that people are upgrading less often, right?

01:36:39   So that's thing one is everybody knows

01:36:43   that they're not necessarily going to get everybody

01:36:45   to upgrade every year, so that's fine.

01:36:48   With the iPhone, Apple just keeps,

01:36:51   it's another iPhone, here you go,

01:36:53   these are the new things we added to it.

01:36:54   But with Android phones, there's so much more competition

01:36:58   amongst the different players there

01:37:00   that they have to find some way

01:37:03   to not only convince people they might wanna upgrade,

01:37:06   but also convince people that they wanna buy

01:37:08   a Samsung or a OnePlus phone

01:37:10   instead of a competitor's phone.

01:37:12   And so they get into these sort of weird spec horse races

01:37:17   that sometimes lead them down blind alleys.

01:37:20   I sort of think of it in the same way

01:37:22   that I think about television.

01:37:25   So everybody bought HDTV,

01:37:27   and the reason they actually bought it

01:37:29   is 'cause it was a thin LCD, not 'cause it was 1080p.

01:37:32   And then after that cycle, all the TV manufacturers

01:37:35   are like, well, what's next?

01:37:37   Well, maybe everybody wants 3D TVs.

01:37:39   Nope, nobody wants 3D.

01:37:40   Maybe everybody wants curved TVs.

01:37:42   Nope, nobody wants curved TVs.

01:37:43   What about 4K?

01:37:45   Maybe.

01:37:45   What about 4K plus HDR?

01:37:47   Okay, now you're getting somewhere

01:37:49   and they're starting to get more upgrades.

01:37:51   So Android phones have a similar challenge.

01:37:53   They're trying to come up with the mix of magical upgrades

01:37:58   that will convince you, okay, I'm gonna upgrade

01:38:00   more than every three years or whatever.

01:38:03   And that more than anything is the reason for 5G hype,

01:38:07   is the carriers also benefit

01:38:09   from people upgrading their phones.

01:38:11   And so they really wanna convince you

01:38:13   that 5G is hot shit that you need.

01:38:16   And so they are pushing in,

01:38:18   there's like a cabal between the carriers

01:38:21   and the Android makers and Qualcomm

01:38:23   to try and spin up 5G into something magical

01:38:26   that convinces you you wanna upgrade.

01:38:28   And in certain areas, on certain networks,

01:38:33   5G is very fast and very impressive,

01:38:36   but it is nowhere near, I think,

01:38:39   worth the cost premium right now.

01:38:42   A year from now, they might build out the networks even more

01:38:44   and might impress me and that'll be fine.

01:38:46   But if you wanna buy a new phone this year,

01:38:49   especially a new Android phone,

01:38:50   get it because you need a new phone

01:38:52   or you want the camera or whatever the other feature is.

01:38:55   Don't get it because it has 5G appended

01:38:58   to the end of the name.

01:38:58   - And it's always, it's like everything in technology,

01:39:01   there's always diminishing returns as the years go by.

01:39:05   And you know, you name it, it's always true.

01:39:08   You know, CPU speeds used to be such a huge deal

01:39:11   where if you bought a new PC 18 months

01:39:14   after your last one, it's like, oh my God,

01:39:16   it's like 10 times faster.

01:39:17   And you know, going from edge to 3G

01:39:21   was like turning the lights on in a dark room.

01:39:24   It's like, oh my God, this is unbelievable.

01:39:26   and then going from 3G to LTE wasn't quite as fantastic

01:39:31   as pre-3G to 3G, but it was still like,

01:39:35   wow, this LTE is seriously like,

01:39:37   might be faster than my Wi-Fi, this is really good,

01:39:40   and it's good up too.

01:39:42   And sure, 5G might be better than LTE,

01:39:44   but LTE is like really good.

01:39:47   - Well, it's like where are the pain points with LTE?

01:39:52   There's actually fewer than you think,

01:39:54   like streaming quality maybe could be better,

01:39:57   you know, like how often are you really uploading files?

01:39:59   Like the whole point of 5G is that it's going to enable

01:40:02   you to do things that you otherwise would only do

01:40:05   on WiFi or, you know, on Ethernet or whatever.

01:40:09   And I just don't think a lot of people

01:40:10   are like hankering for that right now.

01:40:12   - Right, and I've seen, you know, a lot of reports

01:40:14   that 5G might have a better story for covering rural areas,

01:40:19   you know, that they might be able to have,

01:40:22   with fewer towers and spread out more, get a signal

01:40:26   so that places that still don't have a good LTE signal

01:40:29   or any LTE signal might be able to get a 5G signal.

01:40:33   And that is great if you live there, but by definition,

01:40:36   it literally, by definition, there's not that many people

01:40:40   because you're talking about sparsely populated areas.

01:40:42   So it's not going to sell a lot of phones

01:40:44   because that's not where the people are.

01:40:47   - And it's also hard to know how much

01:40:50   that rural connectivity story is real

01:40:53   and how much of it is the carriers telling the FCC things

01:40:56   that the FCC wants to hear

01:40:57   and the FCC pretending like it's true

01:40:59   because they're in bed with the carriers.

01:41:01   - Yeah, and how do you get people to buy it too, right?

01:41:04   Like if you're just a person with a bum LTE signal

01:41:08   at your house and you hear 5G's great,

01:41:11   well, how do you prove it until you go out

01:41:13   and spend $1,000 on a flagship phone with 5G

01:41:16   and then take it home and see if you get a signal?

01:41:18   I mean, you can take your phone back if you do it

01:41:21   and you have a bad signal and you can return phones,

01:41:25   but that, I don't know,

01:41:27   is it really gonna move the phones off the shelves?

01:41:29   I don't know.

01:41:30   - Yeah, well, there's also just a pacing story.

01:41:32   We're used to tech stuff happening relatively quickly

01:41:36   and build outs of cellular networks take years.

01:41:41   And so it's just a matter of when do they hype it

01:41:44   and how fast do they hype it

01:41:46   and how early do you believe in the hype?

01:41:47   and we're still mid-cycle at best

01:41:51   on the build out of these networks,

01:41:52   and until we get closer to late cycle

01:41:55   and really start to know what they enable,

01:41:57   it's hard to buy into any of the hype.

01:41:58   - Yeah.

01:42:00   Bonus content.

01:42:01   I told you before we would talk about the lack

01:42:04   of haptic touch on the iPhone SE,

01:42:06   and I forgot to bring it.

01:42:08   Even though I'm staring at a note,

01:42:09   I wrote a note to myself right here.

01:42:12   It says iPhone SE haptic touch kerfwaffle.

01:42:16   We didn't talk about it.

01:42:17   talk about that and then and then we'll call it a show so here's the so i can you explain it i i

01:42:23   because i'm not even sure where explain it so uh it's actually funny because i think you and i have

01:42:31   actually argued about uh i don't like the way that lock screen notifications on the iPhone works in

01:42:35   the first place um but in theory you should be able to long press on a notification and have it pop up

01:42:41   like those extra options, you know, like the view,

01:42:45   or if there's like an archive option for email or whatever.

01:42:49   And apparently on the iPhone SE, you long press

01:42:53   and you expect to have that little haptic tap back

01:42:55   and then have a bunch of options appear, doesn't work.

01:42:58   You need to slide it over and hit the view button

01:43:01   to have those options pop up.

01:43:03   And it is, it's not a thing I noticed

01:43:06   and I feel bad about it, I'm sorry I didn't,

01:43:08   But it's also like, that's not how I interact

01:43:12   with iPhone notifications, I guess.

01:43:14   And I was already sort of discombobulated by the fact

01:43:16   that you have to touch the notification

01:43:19   and then unlock it with the home button in the first place,

01:43:21   which is something I hadn't done for several years.

01:43:24   But yeah, I do not understand why,

01:43:28   but according to Matthew Panzorino over at TechCrunch,

01:43:31   it's not a bug.

01:43:32   That like Apple designed it that way.

01:43:34   They did not want that long press to open up the options.

01:43:39   - And I guess the reason people feel aggrieved by it

01:43:43   is that the iPhone 8 had 3D Touch,

01:43:47   and 3D Touch is like the rare thing

01:43:51   Apple has walked away from.

01:43:53   Apple, you know, and you talk about the way

01:43:57   that Samsung will maybe throw in the 108 megapixel camera

01:44:00   before everything is worked out,

01:44:02   and I don't think they're gonna walk away from that.

01:44:05   I expect like the S21 or whatever the hell they call

01:44:09   next year's phone might have the 108 megapixel sensor

01:44:13   and not have the autofocus problems, right?

01:44:15   But on the Android side of the fence,

01:44:19   they might try things and then walk away from them.

01:44:21   Like, ah, didn't work.

01:44:23   Whereas Apple's not really a measure twice cut once.

01:44:27   They're like a measure 10 times cut once company

01:44:29   and 3D touch is something that they've just sort of

01:44:33   walked away from because, I guess,

01:44:36   because it requires like a layer under, you know,

01:44:40   there's some kind of sandwich there,

01:44:41   glass, OLED touch sensors, et cetera,

01:44:46   and 3D touch is one of those layers of the sandwich,

01:44:49   and they took it out, and what they now call haptic touch

01:44:54   doesn't really require physical sensors in that sandwich.

01:44:59   it's some kind of heuristic to determine,

01:45:02   they've never explained how they're doing it,

01:45:06   but it's something to do with your skin

01:45:09   expanding on the screen and faking the sense of 3D.

01:45:13   So the iPhone 8 had 3D touch,

01:45:16   and therefore you were able to hard press on a notification,

01:45:20   and the SE doesn't fake it with haptic touch

01:45:25   the way the other iPhone 11 era phones do

01:45:29   and people are aggrieved by it.

01:45:32   And I get it, if you have that habit,

01:45:34   I get it that man, you know,

01:45:37   and you've been waiting all this time

01:45:38   and now you've got your iPhone SE

01:45:39   and now it feels like your notifications are busted.

01:45:42   So I'm not making fun of anybody who's aggrieved by it.

01:45:46   I would be too.

01:45:48   I missed it as a reviewer because it's been so long

01:45:51   since I used that style of iPhone on a daily basis

01:45:54   that it didn't even register to me.

01:45:55   I just thought that was normal.

01:45:58   - If I had to guess, I would say that there's probably

01:46:01   something very inelegant about the finger gymnastics

01:46:04   of long pressing on the thing, oh wait, no,

01:46:07   I haven't unlocked it yet, let me lightly touch

01:46:09   on the home button to unlock, but not touch on it so hard

01:46:12   that I actually get out of the lock screen,

01:46:14   and then go back up to the thing, and then press the thing,

01:46:17   and then have the options pop up.

01:46:18   I think there's, like, the bouncing your thumb up and down

01:46:21   until you get the thing you want was probably such a mess

01:46:24   that they probably just turned it off, if I had to guess,

01:46:27   but I don't actually know.

01:46:28   - Yeah, and it's one of those things

01:46:30   that I've sort of stopped thinking about,

01:46:32   but there's like a difference in the defaults

01:46:35   on whether they, like let's just say

01:46:37   you send me a text message, and my phone is locked,

01:46:40   and I look at it.

01:46:42   On the ones with the home button,

01:46:45   it'll show me, by default,

01:46:46   with default Apple's factory settings,

01:46:49   it'll show me the text of your message on my home screen,

01:46:52   and I can turn that off if I want to for privacy reasons,

01:46:55   but by default, it's there,

01:46:57   whereas on the iPhone X Face ID class iPhones,

01:47:01   that's off by default, and it just says,

01:47:04   I think it says Dieter sent you a text message.

01:47:06   I think it has your name,

01:47:07   but it doesn't send you the text of the message.

01:47:10   But because of Face ID, if you're looking at the phone,

01:47:14   Face ID can, in most circumstances, identify you,

01:47:18   and you don't realize that it's not showing it to you

01:47:21   unless your face unlocks the phone.

01:47:23   - Right, yep, and it just sort of magically opens up

01:47:25   and then you're able to interact with it

01:47:27   because it's unlocked.

01:47:27   - Right, and so that, but it seems like the iPhone SE

01:47:31   is sort of kind of caught in the middle

01:47:35   where it no longer has 3D Touch hardware sensors,

01:47:39   but it doesn't have face ID, so sorry.

01:47:43   - And I've gotten in trouble for saying

01:47:45   that Apple made the right move by getting rid of 3D Touch,

01:47:47   that it really wasn't that valuable

01:47:49   from people that deeply love 3D Touch,

01:47:52   but I don't know, it didn't take off.

01:47:55   They didn't have the interaction models

01:47:57   for what it does really figured out.

01:48:00   There's a couple of examples in the past,

01:48:02   I don't know, decade, of Apple sort of claiming

01:48:06   that they had invented a brand new hardware/software

01:48:08   interaction model that was gonna be revolutionary

01:48:10   and then it turned out to not be.

01:48:11   And 3D Touch is sort of in that camp

01:48:13   and then the Digital Crown is the other thing

01:48:15   where it's like, yeah, you kinda promised

01:48:17   a little bit too much there.

01:48:19   And so it's a bummer that they've gotten rid of 3D touch.

01:48:21   And it's a bummer that the haptic touch thing

01:48:23   isn't working here.

01:48:24   But I don't know, at a certain point,

01:48:28   these things are so complex that, you know,

01:48:29   even Apple can't magically think of every single use case.

01:48:32   - I know that they've renamed the OS for the iPad to iPad OS

01:48:35   but it is still iOS.

01:48:36   And the fact that iPads, even if you get the iPad Pro,

01:48:39   you never had 3D touch.

01:48:40   And so there was always this mismatch

01:48:42   where you can't 3D touch anything on the iPad

01:48:45   and yet you could on certain high-end iPhones.

01:48:50   And I always thought it was a mistake

01:48:51   that they made 3D Touch on the iPhones

01:48:55   do something entirely different than a long press.

01:48:58   And so you would long press an icon

01:49:00   if you wanted jiggle mode to rearrange it

01:49:02   and 3D Touch it if you wanted shortcuts.

01:49:06   And boy, was that easy to get wrong

01:49:10   and seemed very hard to explain

01:49:12   and really sort of seems un-Apple-like.

01:49:15   like two very similar features designed by two teams

01:49:19   that didn't know what the other was doing.

01:49:21   - Yeah, that seems like a reasonable conjecture

01:49:26   for what happened there.

01:49:27   - And so, yeah, I'm okay with getting rid of it,

01:49:32   but I feel like it was a lost opportunity

01:49:33   where if they had done it right,

01:49:35   it might've been awesome,

01:49:36   but they never really did it right,

01:49:38   so they might as well have gotten rid of it.

01:49:40   - Yep.

01:49:41   - All right, Dieter, thank you so much.

01:49:43   I always enjoy-- - Yeah, thanks,

01:49:44   this has been fun.

01:49:45   talking to you. Everybody, of course, can read all of your fine work at The Verge and

01:49:50   then on Twitter. I never remember anybody's Twitter handles. What's your Twitter handle?

01:49:54   It's @baklon. B-A-C-K-L-O-N. B-A-C-K-L-O-N. You're @joy on Twitter as well. I'll see you

01:49:59   there. I do my best. All right. Thanks.

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