The Talk Show

271: ‘A Perfect Wheel’ With Jason Snell


00:00:00   That should suddenly fix it.

00:00:02   Oh yeah, you sound much better now.

00:00:04   Yeah. So, uh, this can be the show.

00:00:08   Are you ready?

00:00:10   Sure.

00:00:12   Alright, so I was on the wrong microphone when we started talking.

00:00:14   Because the last episode I recorded on this machine, which is the 16 inch,

00:00:20   I'm never going to get done calling it a 15 inch MacBook Pro,

00:00:24   was my two episodes ago with Casey Johnston,

00:00:28   At the end of the show I switched

00:00:30   live right in the middle of the show

00:00:33   To the built-in microphone to talk about hey, well or not both to talk about and to let

00:00:40   You know, what?

00:00:42   What better use of a podcast is there to let the listeners of the podcast hear the quality of this supposedly studio?

00:00:49   Quality mic and so I did it and I think it turned out pretty well

00:00:54   But the other problem I wound up having I don't know if you listen to that show

00:00:59   But I had to do like a little preamble before it because the whole show up to that point which was like two hours long

00:01:05   recorded through my usual professional onyx

00:01:09   Blackjack

00:01:12   Xdr whatever they call it and this sure whatever Marco recommended to me microphone

00:01:18   All had a bunch of static not and it was usable and like filtering it

00:01:25   You know my editor Caleb Sexton filtered it and I think it was quite listenable, but it was obviously not the usual audio quality and

00:01:32   The worst part is I should have my friggin head examined because the last time that happened to me

00:01:38   was

00:01:40   When I was testing the previous 15-inch MacBook Pro

00:01:45   And my connection from the blackjack dingus

00:01:50   Whatever it's called the onyx blackjack

00:01:55   Yeah, Matt. Yep is a USB out

00:01:58   USB-b, you know the one that that's the one everybody if you don't know printer cable. Yeah, the printer square one

00:02:05   Yeah, the square one looks like a printer cable to a USB a cable

00:02:09   so to use that with a

00:02:13   relatively new MacBook of any sort, you need a dongle. And last summer, I recorded an entire

00:02:22   episode, it was the q&a episode I did with myself with no guest. And I did the whole

00:02:26   thing and the static was so bad, that was unusable. But I felt like well, this is the

00:02:32   luckiest thing in the world. Because while I have to re record this entire episode, I

00:02:37   don't have to embarrass a guest and say, I'm sorry, but I need two more hours of your time

00:02:41   And I need you to repeat yourself and I felt it came out better because I had never done an episode without a guest before

00:02:47   And I feel like I did a better job on the second cut so it wasn't a disaster

00:02:52   But the curious thing was that it wasn't like I used the same adapter

00:02:56   Same cable and just plugged it in again and it worked and it so it if you hear any static

00:03:02   Like and the worst part was Casey and I had a bit of Skype problems and it was definitely Skype. I know Skype

00:03:09   I was hearing her staticky

00:03:11   But she didn't realize that what you were getting was not a Skype artifact.

00:03:17   No, no, and only she heard my static because this is the what makes this problem so devilish

00:03:24   is my headphones that I'm monitoring my own audio on right now as we speak connect to

00:03:30   the blackjack and so it goes from the mic to the blackjack to my headphones without

00:03:36   ever touching the USB chain.

00:03:39   Exactly.

00:03:40   Exactly. So your Mac is recording something bad, but you're not here because you're on

00:03:43   the right on the mixer. Yeah. And, and she heard it, but we chalked it up to Skype. And

00:03:49   since I was recording my own audio, it wouldn't matter. But, and, and turned out that I recorded

00:03:53   all this static. So anyway, are you screwing with me? No. Actually I, I have, I have involved

00:04:02   myself in so many podcast screw ups over the years that I just am having flashbacks. Like

00:04:07   I have a little catalog in my head now of like all the ways that a podcast can fail.

00:04:12   One of these days I'm going to like do a book or a video series or something where I'm like,

00:04:16   I've heard that problem.

00:04:17   Whatever it is, I've heard that problem.

00:04:19   And one of the amazing things that I discovered is there are some audio plugins that are obviously

00:04:25   written for professional music people or professional video people or whatever that are really amazing.

00:04:31   if it ends up being not perfect, like there's a D static and a D crackle and a D all these

00:04:39   D clicking things that you could just run on audio. And I have rescued some spectacularly

00:04:45   bad audio using this, like it's like witchcraft, the software that pro like pro audio plugins

00:04:52   offer now. Yeah, it's amazing.

00:04:54   Uh, so anyway, I was so burned and scarred by that and I was so paranoid that it was

00:05:00   was going to be unlistenable and I'd have to either I would have to ask Casey to record

00:05:05   or eat maybe just disappear from the earth and never do another episode of my podcast

00:05:11   again but it turned out okay but I was so scarred by that that the last episode I did

00:05:16   with Mattie glacius I used my old personal 13 inch MacBook that uses the actual cable

00:05:22   and I because I swore to myself John what you're going to do is you're going to spend

00:05:28   $4 and get a new USB B to USB C cable. So you don't have to have a dongle because it's

00:05:36   clearly the dongle that introduces the point where maybe if the dongle isn't quite in the

00:05:41   thing or the thing isn't quite in a dongle, you know that that there's the problem. And

00:05:46   I'll spend money at Amazon on anything on a whim. Like if it just like a notion just

00:05:52   pops into my head that I should buy a new whatever cable, I'll do it. And for some reason,

00:05:57   cable which is actually essential to half of my professional life I've

00:06:03   procrastinated on and here I am talking to you through a dongle again but I did

00:06:07   switch to a differently I switched to a different dongle just in case that was

00:06:11   the jinx I finally you sound great from here so I think we're good we're good I

00:06:16   I did I finally bought one of those I bought the other the other month I was

00:06:21   gonna be doing some traveling and and using my iPad for some stuff and you

00:06:27   know iPad Pro it's got a USB C on it and I said you know what I'm gonna do is any

00:06:31   cable I need I'm going to get the new version that goes to USB C with no dongle

00:06:36   just straight up like USB B to USB C or you like a micro or a mini I have all

00:06:41   those cables now which is great because that means I'm basically not using that

00:06:45   dongle anymore I'm just using the right cable now which is it's better it makes

00:06:49   you feel better anyway to not have to worry about adapting anything yeah I'm

00:06:53   I'm working on a scheme, a personal scheme, like for a couple of years now I've I've espoused

00:06:58   I've really enjoyed them. And they've really made my life better is mono prices three and

00:07:04   one cables. Have you ever seen these? Oh, yeah, yeah, right. So it's USB a, the one

00:07:11   that we know everywhere, the one everybody thinks of as USB on the end, and you plug

00:07:15   it into anything. And then on the other end, its primary jack is a micro USB. And you think

00:07:21   micro USB that sucks. But it's got two other little things.

00:07:25   It's like a little Trident. And they're just like little rubber

00:07:29   band type things. And you can put a effectively like a

00:07:34   lightning condom on the USB micro USB or you could take off

00:07:39   the lightning and put a USB C on and so it's one cable that goes

00:07:45   to all three things. So you could charge your Kindle which

00:07:49   For me at least is still micro USB. I don't know if they've gotten

00:07:52   that it seems to me like Amazon is like all in on micro USB for some reason but

00:07:57   And it's a great great travel cable

00:08:01   It's not the prettiest thing because whatever you're using there's something hanging off the side at the end

00:08:07   But it's super useful and I buy them all from Monoprice in black

00:08:11   And so for a while if I saw a black cable in my bag, I knew it was that

00:08:16   The problem is they don't make that sort of thing with USB C on the other end and now we're moving to the point where?

00:08:22   most of the things you want to plug the

00:08:24   Charging and you know into the power brick and need to be USB C. So what I'm doing is working on a scheme

00:08:31   I'm buying these nice gray cables

00:08:34   from

00:08:37   Anchor not a sponsor. I'm just a very happy user of the anchor various products

00:08:42   So I'm buying these gray cables that use like a threaded cable

00:08:46   You know what? I mean like instead of a rubbery cable material. It feels like a nice cloth. Yeah braided thread

00:08:52   Yeah, I like I like those two there and they're a nice dark gray. They're not black

00:08:56   Clearly dark gray and I'm using getting those

00:09:00   I've bought two six footers and one three footer and then that's all I need and they're just direct USB C to USB C and

00:09:07   Then there's no confusion as to whether it's lightning on one end USB C

00:09:12   On the other end if it's gray and threaded it is USB C on both ends

00:09:17   And then I also know it's not Thunderbolt 3 which is the big

00:09:20   The biggest kick in the balls that the entire industry has had in the USB era is the fact that Thunderbolt

00:09:28   Looks Thunderbolt 3 looks exactly like USB C and in fact will kind of work

00:09:35   But it'll only work at a much slower than Thunderbolt 3 speed

00:09:40   Right. So anyway, that's my scheme for a travel bag is to buy you like that colored cables for each each thing

00:09:47   So black means my three-way thing with the USB a on the end gray means USB C to USB C and then white means

00:09:54   USB C to lightning and it's you know, one of the Apple ones

00:09:58   All right, so you'll just not use the Apple ones if it isn't the USB C to lightning for now. Yeah, that's my new travel procedure

00:10:07   Yeah, because that's what happens to me is that I pull out the white cable and I'm like, oh this is gonna be a lightning to USB-C

00:10:12   and it's like no this one is lightning to USB-A or it's USB-C to USB-C or something like that

00:10:19   And it's you're right color coding is a good idea. Yeah. Oh

00:10:22   Big day Mac Pro we got a lot to talk about we usually have a lot to talk about but

00:10:28   Mac Pro I was looking it up

00:10:32   You know they were it's been so long since there was a new Mac Pro

00:10:36   but the one that got me is not how many thousands of days it's been since the trash can came out.

00:10:42   So you were there at that round table that was the, you know, "No, we really do like the Mac."

00:10:48   And that was 980 days ago. It took 980 days between when Apple admitted that there would

00:10:56   be a new Mac Pro design coming in the future and it shipping or them taking orders. If they ship

00:11:04   it in 20 days they'll hit a thousand right on the nose. You know I haven't seen when people,

00:11:09   I haven't seen people tweeting about people who've already ordered tweeting about dates. I have a

00:11:13   friend who ordered a, I think he was like hitting reload because one of the funny things is finally

00:11:21   we still didn't even know when the hell it was going to go on sale. Then eventually last month

00:11:24   at that pro, the MacBook Pro round table whatever you want to call the dog pony show in New York.

00:11:33   Yeah, the thing that you and I both went to in New York, right? They said they specified it like a

00:11:38   little bit closer. Well, they said December. No, they December. So we knew it. And then on their

00:11:43   website, they said this fall. So it was like, okay, well, now it's like a 21 day window.

00:11:47   It's gonna fall inside. So then they said December. And then I think Friday, no, Saturday

00:11:52   night, Saturday night of all times, they announced that they would go on sale on December 10. But they

00:11:58   They didn't even give a time like when have they not give it a time?

00:12:02   Right now the Apple website is telling me that the base model delivers

00:12:06   December 19th through December 27th. I don't know quite what that range means, but they're gonna get it under the wire

00:12:12   They're gonna get it under a thousand days since they just think about that though

00:12:15   That's two years and eight months basically since Apple said there would be a new Mac Pro before that Mac Pro

00:12:21   Delivered it's been a long long time. Yeah. I have a friend who was sitting there just reloading the page

00:12:27   Because he was afraid it would quickly get back ordered. He wanted the produce play XDR

00:12:32   Hello hunter

00:12:35   he

00:12:37   Got a delivery window of December 18 to 20 now

00:12:41   I don't know if you could still get to December 18 to 20 as we record low these five hours later

00:12:47   But at least if you got one right away the the display is 18 to 20

00:12:55   So that's a long time. Yeah boy

00:12:57   Yeah, yeah, it's funny. It's funny that this has all happened. I also think

00:13:02   What's really funny about it is and I wrote a piece on Macworld last week about this too, which

00:13:08   I think offended some people but that's fine

00:13:10   I knew that was gonna happen, but you know one of my points in it was the Mac Pro takes on this outsized

00:13:17   portion of our our brain power about the Mac then how it's actually used right and you could say that that's

00:13:25   That's partially because it's been so long, partially because it's a class of Mac that

00:13:29   traditionally has been very, very popular with a broader swath of users than it's really

00:13:35   targeted at today, which we could talk about.

00:13:37   But also that it's just it's a symbol of Apple's commitment to the Mac.

00:13:41   And that meeting that you went to 980 days ago, that was symbolic, not just for people

00:13:48   who actually wanted to buy a Mac Pro, but just to hear Apple say, "Yes, we do care.

00:13:52   Yes, there will be a new Mac Pro.

00:13:53   We're not putting the Mac out to pasture.

00:13:56   And so we spent all this time talking about it.

00:13:58   And it's like, most of us are not going to get one.

00:14:01   But it's still important.

00:14:02   Well, the other interesting thing about that roundtable in hindsight was that I don't think

00:14:06   the word wrong ever came out of their mouths.

00:14:09   But it was it wasn't even euphemistic.

00:14:12   I mean, like the Fed, I'm usually not even good at remembering quotes like this.

00:14:17   But the federal quote at the meeting was we painted ourselves into a thermal corner, meaning

00:14:23   with the trash can Mac Pro.

00:14:26   You know, effectively they were admitting we made a wrong bet on where the future of

00:14:32   desktop power computing was going.

00:14:34   And we missed out on the GPU revolution and how much thermal, how much physical space

00:14:41   it would need for the cards, how much physical space it would need for the cooling, et cetera,

00:14:46   et cetera, and so forth.

00:14:47   It was, you know, sort of unprecedented.

00:14:50   And it was true.

00:14:51   You know, it's obvious.

00:14:52   did make a mistake. And either they didn't care, or they needed to course correct. And they, they,

00:14:59   you know, they said they cared. They said they'd course correct. And in terms of one generation

00:15:03   to the next, being different. I would almost say this is a bigger, bigger difference from the

00:15:11   trashcan than the trashcan was from the quote unquote, cheese grater. I mean, that this one,

00:15:17   if you take the trash can out of history, you could see an evolution, right? But but right,

00:15:24   a natural evolution, you would think, oh, that's a natural one. Like in hindsight, when we go back,

00:15:30   there's it would be, you know, like those, that iconic t shirt design, where it shows evolution,

00:15:37   and there's like a fish crawling out of water, and then like a little monkey and then like a caveman

00:15:41   and then like a Neanderthal and then a man. You know, and it's like, oh, you could see how we

00:15:45   We went from there to there to there to there

00:15:47   it would be like the trashcan Mac Pro would be like if in between the Neanderthal and

00:15:51   Homosapien there was like a frog

00:15:55   Yeah, what the heck is that? And why is it in there?

00:15:58   Or maybe a frog is unfair as a frog is too small, but it's it was like a I don't know like a feral dog

00:16:04   Or a greyhound like a really graceful beautiful greyhound, but it's like well, that's nothing like either of those things. That's really that's really bizarre

00:16:15   It's it really but but because this is like a beefier version of the cheese grater going from the trash can to this design and

00:16:24   It's insane baseline specs and prices right. I mean just price alone is yeah is really unprecedented

00:16:31   And well, I mean history it's it is I mean not if you'd look at like

00:16:38   Constant like dollar equivalents over time because I was looking it up like the Mac 2 FX

00:16:45   was in in current dollars like eight grand or something like that oh I think

00:16:51   it was more than that I think it was a grant I think the Mac 2 FX was eight

00:16:55   grand in 1989 dollars oh yeah maybe you're right it's the point is that

00:16:59   that Apple has been selling high-end workstations no you know you're right it

00:17:04   was nine grand in 1990 when it was released that's 18 grand today right so

00:17:10   like that was a base model that was the base model Apple has sold ridiculously

00:17:14   priced computers. It's true it goes back and forth. The Mac Pro, like, so the thing that I keep saying

00:17:20   that that some people get and some people don't is what's changed from back in the day when like I

00:17:27   had a Power Mac G4, that was my primary computer for a long time, and then I had a Power Mac G5 and

00:17:31   that was my primary computer for a long time. But there was an era where like anybody who needed to

00:17:38   to do anything with any amount of stress on the Mac

00:17:41   as a desktop would buy a tower

00:17:44   because that was where the power was.

00:17:46   And iMacs were toys.

00:17:48   iMacs were low-end super compromised computers.

00:17:51   But over time, the percentage of that like Power Mac G4 market

00:17:56   that actually couldn't use an iMac, if this makes any sense,

00:18:01   keeps getting less and less and less.

00:18:03   'Cause like today, between the iMac,

00:18:05   the iMac Pro and the Mac Mini,

00:18:07   They're so powerful that you can get something in one of those products that will, you know,

00:18:12   it'll satisfy 95% of users, maybe 98% of users in terms of sheer numbers and not like the

00:18:19   money being spent.

00:18:20   And that doesn't mean that the smaller percentages aren't important.

00:18:22   What it does mean is the Mac Pro, Apple has been very slowly since the introduction of

00:18:27   the cheese grater Mac Pro and then with the trash can and now has been just ratcheting

00:18:31   up the base of that computer and saying this is really for pros.

00:18:37   And like, it's not today.

00:18:38   Like I remember when the Intel Mac Pro came out and I remember when the trash can came

00:18:42   out that we had the same conversation, which is literally Apple is kind of pushing the

00:18:49   prosumer who just kind of likes to have a pro system, kind of pushing them toward other

00:18:54   products and saying, "Nah."

00:18:56   You remember like the trash can, it was all about like biotech and we were going to be

00:19:01   doing using these GPUs to do DNA sequencing and stuff like that.

00:19:04   The whole message was not, you can do Photoshop on this,

00:19:08   because like the other systems were powerful enough

00:19:11   for almost everybody.

00:19:12   So it's aspirational, but like Apple has been pushing

00:19:16   the high end, the Mac Pro up into the high end

00:19:18   for like a decade now, at least.

00:19:20   - Yeah, the other thing is that in the earlier decades,

00:19:24   it was a lot easier to understand computers

00:19:27   in terms of this higher end one versus a middle one

00:19:32   versus a low end one.

00:19:34   and you really could is just a basic enthusiast, right? The general public never never really

00:19:42   cared. And that's why they always bought like just bought the iMac, right? Why would I want to buy a

00:19:46   separate monitor, I'll buy this adorable thing that's all in one and they don't care about a

00:19:50   G totally versus a G four. Or going back but going back in time, it was always you could just look at

00:19:55   at the CPU name and when this 68030 came out in the back in the Motorola days of the 80s

00:20:04   and 90s it was way faster than the 68020s and the 68040s were way faster.

00:20:13   That was the era where chip model numbers were put in the names of the products, right?

00:20:18   The Quadras were 040s and the Power Mac G3 and the Power Mac G4 and G5 like literally

00:20:24   This has got the new chip in it. That's why it's called this the greatest in my opinion Macintosh of all time the SE

00:20:30   30 the 30 was because it was the first SE with SE

00:20:35   You know classic Mac style thing with the next 68 Oh 30 in it

00:20:38   And then again with the once they went to power PC

00:20:44   The initial ones the power, you know initial ones were still sort of

00:20:49   Named

00:20:51   pre pre return of Steve Jobs, but

00:20:54   60 170 180 100 my beloved my

00:20:58   Peer to four. I think I have a new favorite Mac ever

00:21:02   But perhaps my favorite Mac ever at least dollar for dollar was a power Mac

00:21:06   9600 that I bought right when I got out of college in 96 and it had been

00:21:11   Discontinued it was the power Mac g3s had come out I believe and I got a

00:21:20   9600 maxed out like with everything like most RAM

00:21:23   biggest drive at like an incredible discount over what had been like a few months earlier and

00:21:29   it was my desktop for a

00:21:34   Whole bunch of years and it never could there was an initial promise that that those

00:21:40   9600 class and back around there would I forget what chip it had?

00:21:45   But it was before the power PC started calling them g3s

00:21:48   Yeah, it must have been an 040. Yeah, it was an 040

00:21:52   I think and there was a promise that Mac OS X would run on it and

00:21:55   Then they eventually dropped that and went like actually the baseline will be g3s when Mac OS X came out

00:22:02   But by the time I bought it with the promise that hey the future so so it was so it was like a PowerPC like

00:22:07   a 601 yeah, 601 something like no 604 604

00:22:11   Okay. All right. Yeah, it was the

00:22:14   Yeah, the high was a PowerPC but not but not a

00:22:17   a not a G right right because it was a because it was a power Mac and quadra yeah right so

00:22:23   like the early but it wasn't in the G's and if you weren't in a G3 you weren't gonna get

00:22:26   to run OS 10 right but even before the G G4 G you know G5 yeah the 601 was like the first

00:22:34   one and then there I think there was a 603 603 yeah and there was like a 603 II and then

00:22:39   yeah and then the 604 was the best of the those models and that's what the night my

00:22:43   Beloved 9600 had never got to run Mac OS 10, but by the time Mac OS 10 came out

00:22:48   I didn't want to put Mac OS 10. I wouldn't have installed it. I wouldn't have installed it on that machine in

00:22:53   2001 anyway, so I was fine at that point you needed the fastest possible Mac to run it very very very slowly

00:23:00   Exactly, and I did just didn't want it. So that was fine

00:23:05   It was a beloved machine, but it was very easy to know why I wanted a power Mac 9600

00:23:09   which was like a super maxed out and very expensive for a kid just coming out of college.

00:23:15   I forget what I spent. Probably, I don't know, three, four thousand dollars, something like that.

00:23:19   I don't know. But it was a lot. It was easy to tell just by 603 versus 604, you know, and you

00:23:28   can't do that anymore. It's just not the and it's been a long time since you could you really and

00:23:32   you can't look at gigahertz. And, you know, it's, it's complicated, right? You can look at the like

00:23:38   generation of Intel processor, but with the Mac Pro, it's the Xeons, which are different.

00:23:43   They have a different profile. And then you've got turbo boost versus core count, right?

00:23:48   And that performs differently based on software. That's something that happened about the time

00:23:53   of the PowerPC transition where the idea of multiple processors or multiple processor

00:23:57   cores came in. And then it's like, you know, you don't even know because like if your favorite

00:24:01   app only uses one core, then the fastest computer you can buy is not the fastest computer you

00:24:06   can buy because you know it's faster because it's added cores and your thing doesn't use

00:24:10   the cores so there's no point and you just want the faster turbo boost with the one core

00:24:15   and it's complicated right like so much of it is is complicated and they kind of sand

00:24:19   it off and just say you don't even need to know just you know just don't even worry about

00:24:22   it yeah and so you know I grew up in that those decades thinking either either wishing

00:24:28   I could afford the fastest possible Mac that you know whether it was called power Mac or

00:24:32   whatever the name was at the time, even from the 60s,

00:24:36   the Motorola days before that, wishing I could afford

00:24:40   Mac 2ci or Dream upon Dream, a 2FX.

00:24:44   I mean, I've told this story before.

00:24:46   I don't know the SOB's name, or if I did know it,

00:24:48   I forgot it, but there was one guy in the Drexel dorms

00:24:51   who had a 2FX, and when we played Spectre in the dorms,

00:24:56   having a faster computer actually helped.

00:24:59   And you know and everybody if you played specter

00:25:02   You know everybody knew you turn on the vector style graphics just outlines because it would speed things up

00:25:08   but this guy had a 2FX so and

00:25:10   The worst part is in it. So we had a 2FX. That's you know good for him

00:25:15   You know his parents had money if I could have my parents had offered me at

00:25:18   $8,000 to FX I certainly wouldn't have taken it the worst part is the son of a bitch was a cheater

00:25:25   and he went into red there was a way to go into res edit and

00:25:28   And

00:25:32   Set your specter

00:25:33   Config to have like illegal value. So you're maxed out on all three things

00:25:37   It was like you had like I forget the three factors inspector. It was like

00:25:41   speed

00:25:44   Shields armor, you know armor and there's like a firepower or something. I don't forget what the third one was but

00:25:52   But you'd had you have to allocate stuff and you could make a faster one

00:25:55   but then you'd have less armor or you could make a more armored one, but then you'd be slower and

00:25:59   That son of a bitch made his max armor and max speed and you could tell when somebody was cheating like that

00:26:05   You could tell with your absolutely and the son of a bitch had a Mac 2FX. So he already had a leg up

00:26:09   Anyway, if anybody had from Drexel and then 1991 1992 remembers that guy's name. Let me know because I'll air it out

00:26:17   I don't I don't take cheating. No

00:26:20   But anyway, it's it I see what you mean. No people identify with the fact that I I want the Mac Pro

00:26:28   Whatever it's you know, yeah, whatever it's called at the time and now they feel and I think I think there's even also

00:26:34   There's the aesthetic aesthetic thing like entirely around like there's first there's my identity as a computer person

00:26:40   Like I'm a computer enthusiast who lived through that era and so for me having a tower being able to change

00:26:46   You know change out video cards being able to upgrade the processor a lot of stuff

00:26:50   which by the way nobody actually ever did or very few people did. It was the theory

00:26:55   that you could upgrade the internals but most people didn't. And Apple realized that which

00:26:59   is why Apple makes computers now that mostly you can't upgrade the internals and that's

00:27:03   just how they have decided to do it. And I also get like for some people it's not just

00:27:08   the nostalgia or that just the calming feeling of knowing that it could be upgraded later.

00:27:13   Some of it is aesthetic too which is like I like having a big shiny tower and a standalone

00:27:19   monitor I like knowing that I can replace the computer and keep the

00:27:23   monitor or replace the monitor and keep the computer like I there are a lot of

00:27:26   intangibles going in here that I totally get why people are attracted that way

00:27:32   even though that the truth is that for what they want to do an iMac or an iMac

00:27:37   Pro or a Mac Mini with an external monitor is probably like more than they

00:27:42   need I get like yeah but I want this really cool tower I totally get it yeah

00:27:48   Well, that's funny though that that what I think is pretty good advice you probably don't need a Mac Pro is like your most controversial Mac

00:27:58   world column in months.

00:28:00   Well yeah I think my first my first headline that I wrote that I changed was the Mac Pro is is really important

00:28:06   and you shouldn't buy one which is like I actually got somebody who wrote to me and he said stop suppressing sales of Mac Pros

00:28:13   we need the Mac Pro and like look the people who are gonna buy it are gonna buy it

00:28:16   It's all the people are like, "I don't really need it."

00:28:19   And that's like, I told John Syracuse about this and his response on his podcast was,

00:28:24   "I don't need it.

00:28:25   I want it."

00:28:26   It's like, yeah, that's fine.

00:28:28   Like I totally get it.

00:28:29   But it's like, I think for most Mac users, the Mac Pro is more important as a symbol.

00:28:33   It's more important of being part of this kind of reattachment, re-engagement Apple

00:28:36   has been doing since 980 or 980 days ago, where they have done a whole bunch of stuff

00:28:42   and we're seeing it now and we'll still be seeing it next year where they've kind of changed their approach and are

00:28:49   spending more time being concerned about the the kind of pro end of the of the market and that doesn't just mean the Mac Pro it

00:28:56   Also means the iMac Pro and the MacBook Pro and and like other other Mac products as well

00:29:00   And that's what's you know, it's important in that way. Even if you don't end up spending

00:29:06   Somewhere between six and fifty thousand dollars on a Mac Pro. I think it still matters

00:29:12   Yeah, totally. All right. Now, in addition to not telling us when it will go on sale,

00:29:18   and then when they finally told us what day it would go on sale, they didn't tell us what

00:29:25   time right now we know everything. 10am Pacific turns out. No, I think it was 9am. Was it

00:29:36   9 a.m. Pacific? Yeah, because I was I was taking my notes. Yeah, I was taking my notes around

00:29:40   1215 here, so I was still in my pajamas

00:29:45   That's what I know, but that's a little it's a little unusual because usually the Apple is a 10 a.m. Pacific 1 p.m.

00:29:50   Eastern company, but right, you know, except when it's except when you're pre-ordering an iPhone, I guess but yeah

00:29:56   But in addition to that they'd never told us anything about any pricing other than base models

00:30:02   Right and the monitor stand, right?

00:30:05   And now we know it all and so we have so much to talk about but before we do so, there we go

00:30:09   That'll be a perfect

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00:32:55   All right, so we knew the base model price.

00:32:59   Five, $6,000, let's call it, 5,999.

00:33:04   Did we know the Mac Pro rack price?

00:33:09   The rack mountable version.

00:33:11   - Don't think so.

00:33:13   I think we just knew that it was going to exist.

00:33:15   - Right, and so there's a, for those, you know,

00:33:19   And that this wasn't a major part of the WWDC announcement. It was there and they had the rack mounted ones in New York for us

00:33:25   to ogle

00:33:27   Ogle ogle. What do you?

00:33:29   Say ogle. I don't go with your pronunciation ogle last month

00:33:34   and I

00:33:37   Immediately, I looked at it

00:33:39   I was like that looks great and I turned around and said how much does this cost and they were like we're not talking about

00:33:44   that

00:33:47   Or maybe I even got like a wolf check will check and get back to you and then we'll get back to you

00:33:51   Well 500 500 bucks. That's the answer. No, it's 1500. It's six. Oh, no, you're right. It's 500 because it's I see

00:33:59   They these I eyeballed it and the five on the five nine nine nine screwed me

00:34:04   Yeah, so it's only 1500. There we go or 500. I mean 500 bucks just to get it rack. Yeah

00:34:10   I don't it's and it's a completely different config. It's that's the thing is it's not like there's a conversion kit or something

00:34:16   It's just like ordering an iMac whether you want right now or not like you need to order it right with

00:34:21   The rack mountable version and it comes that way, but still that's cool

00:34:26   It's like the days of the X serve right of the X serve raid and put it in Iraq now and nobody like like

00:34:31   The the max stadium people don't need to invent

00:34:34   Mounting system for this thing. It's Apple is gonna if you want it with with slide it into a rack somewhere

00:34:41   You can just buy it that way. Yeah

00:34:43   I'll bet they're glad I know you know Brian Stuckey over there and

00:34:47   It's good timing that they've changed their name and merged and become max stadium instead of Mac mini

00:34:53   Co low because uh-huh these are gonna be a big deal for them. Yeah

00:34:57   It's a really neat config, but I don't think but I don't know

00:35:02   That the technical specs inside are identical. I believe that they will be though that there

00:35:08   I think that a base model Mac Pro rack or whatever we're gonna call it rack Mac Pro rack Mac

00:35:13   pack rat the rat pack I don't know is back pro you just pay a $500 premium

00:35:21   just for the right mounted version but we don't know because it's not available

00:35:25   yet which means you can't click there and then price it right figure we don't

00:35:28   know because it's not not there yet coming soon I think that's what they

00:35:32   said that's my notes my notes say coming soon yeah well I laugh because like you

00:35:38   said it's you know the Mac Pro was coming well they never said coming soon

00:35:42   But you know, we waited 980 days for any of this who knows what coming soon means

00:35:47   So here's the processor upgrade story first step up is a thousand dollars

00:35:55   that's from going from

00:35:58   So the base models 8 core

00:36:01   The next one is 12 core that's a thousand bucks

00:36:08   the 16 core

00:36:11   $6,000

00:36:13   24 core

00:36:15   $6,000 and the 28 core Intel Xeon W processor with turbo boost up to 4.4 gigahertz

00:36:22   $7,000

00:36:26   Now the thing's pretty good pretty good deal there you get an extra four cores for just another grant there

00:36:31   So the thing one thing I didn't realize I don't know if you could know if people who understand like the Xeon roadmap was like

00:36:38   "Oh yeah, duh, that's the way it is."

00:36:40   But you need to get the 24 core or 28 core ones,

00:36:44   which again are a $6,000 or $7,000 upgrade

00:36:48   if you want to get the 1.5 terabyte of RAM option.

00:36:52   -Right, right.

00:36:53   So to pay $25,000 for RAM,

00:36:57   you need to first pay $6,000 or $7,000 for processor.

00:36:59   -Right. So, you know, I don't know what the correlation is

00:37:04   between people who really need 1.

00:37:06   terabytes of RAM and people who really need more than 16 cores.

00:37:11   But that's, you know, kind of a bummer. And who knows, I don't

00:37:16   know if that is a technical constraint. I would kind of hope

00:37:21   it is, you know, that, that that's the way these, you know,

00:37:25   the only those chips that support that much RAM. And it is

00:37:29   a big jump up, right. So the first two steps 1000 and 2000.

00:37:33   Then the next one is six thousand going from sixteen to twenty four is a four thousand dollar jump

00:37:39   Whereas adding four cores to go from twelve to sixteen is only a thousand

00:37:43   Right. So if you're thinking well every four cores is a thousand to go from sixteen to twenty four

00:37:50   You would think it would be four thousand but it's not it's six thousand

00:37:54   So would that sort of makes me think that those chips must be they must be more expensive and that's why they're the ones that support

00:38:01   1.5 terabytes

00:38:03   Right.

00:38:04   memory.

00:38:05   Now, this is actually I spec this out.

00:38:12   So the one everybody wants to know about is the 1.5 terabytes, that's $25,000 upgrade.

00:38:20   768 is 10,000.

00:38:25   But if you get 768, but instead of using all 12 RAM slats slots for 64 gigabyte chips,

00:38:32   instead only use six of them at 128 each, that's 14,000.

00:38:37   So those 128 chips are the ones you need

00:38:40   to get the maximum 1.5 terabytes.

00:38:45   So one of the things that stuck out to me

00:38:47   is that the 1.5 terabyte option

00:38:48   is actually a pretty good deal

00:38:50   compared to the half as much using the same chips, right?

00:38:54   - It's like three grand right off the top there.

00:38:57   - Yeah. - But if you buy them in bulk.

00:38:58   - Yeah, you'd think it would be $28,000,

00:39:01   would just double the 14 but instead you only have to pay $25,000 say I want a

00:39:05   discount you know it's a bargain I priced it out so you have to do the math

00:39:13   and to be fair it they don't really tell you how much it costs for the RAM it's

00:39:19   all based on how much more it costs than the base model of 32 gigabytes right

00:39:26   Right, everything is beginning at $59.99 and with 32 gigs of RAM and then you adjust right

00:39:34   word.

00:39:35   And so when you go from 32 to 48, the plus $300 you pay for that, you're really only

00:39:42   you're, you could do the math, you're really only spending $300 for 16 more gigabytes of

00:39:48   RAM.

00:39:49   But if you're talking about 768 gigabytes, or 1.5 terabytes, that the initial whatever

00:39:54   the cost of 32 gigs of RAM doesn't isn't really a factor but if you look at the

00:40:00   price per gigabyte over 32 the prices are actually lower for this Mac Pro than

00:40:08   they are for the iMac Pro there it's you know it's close but it's about like my

00:40:15   going down the list I did the math here it's and it's oddly inconsistent 18.75

00:40:21   $25 per gigabyte 15.625 18.75 1719 13.6 and then the big one is 16.62 dollars per gigabyte

00:40:36   over 32 with the iMac Pro. The 64 is kind of a bargain if you go to 64 gigabytes on

00:40:44   iMac Pro you're only paying $12.50 per gigabyte over 32. But then the next two options for

00:40:50   the iMac Pro 128 and 256 are 21 and 23 dollars, which is more than any of the Mac Pro configs.

00:40:59   So you know, they're not like really, they're not price gouging more than they do with the

00:41:06   iMac Pro.

00:41:07   Right, and I wonder if that partially is what the configuration is in the iMac Pro, and

00:41:14   if it's, if you know, they have, they only have a couple of slots so that they have to

00:41:19   fill them. I don't know, I don't remember all the details because that was a couple years ago when

00:41:22   the iMac Pro came out, but you know, and it's fascinating to think about how they price all

00:41:28   this stuff because on one level, you know, they're looking at the component prices and figuring up

00:41:33   what their margin is. They're probably also thinking that you make a certain margin on the,

00:41:38   you know, getting in the door with the Mac Pro, but then every step above that you want to increase

00:41:42   your margin or at least maintain your margin. They know that the higher end you go, probably the more

00:41:48   you can afford to spend more money because this is the thing when people are outraged,

00:41:55   like today's the day that this comes out, a great day for people to be outraged by how

00:41:59   expensive this thing is and you can very easily price it up to 50 grand. But in the professional

00:42:05   workstation market, consumer economics kind of don't apply. It's a very different kind of game.

00:42:13   I would imagine that the techniques you take as Apple in terms of pricing this thing and

00:42:18   figuring out what your profit margins are probably are a different kind of game than

00:42:22   you would play with a consumer product.

00:42:24   Yeah, I would say definitely the numbers are different, but I would imagine that like the

00:42:29   margin calculations because on a consumer good, you're probably like, well, above a

00:42:33   certain point, we're going to just depress sales and people are not going to want it.

00:42:36   And so we got to limit what our maximum is and we got to step that along the way.

00:42:40   I look at this Mac Pro and I think you know, if somebody wants to buy 1.5 terabytes, let's

00:42:44   Let's let's do it. Like let's make a lot of money from those people because they obviously money is

00:42:50   No object to a certain point that they're happy to drop 25 grand in order to get that RAM. So let's make a profit

00:42:57   yeah, but you know, but it's interesting to me that it you know, the

00:43:01   Dollar per gigabyte doesn't really go up exponentially as you get to the top and in fact goes down a little bit

00:43:08   The ones that are the worst deal are the 48 and 192. I thought it was a little weird that the

00:43:15   the increments aren't in

00:43:18   32s

00:43:21   that instead of 32 64 128 256 512

00:43:26   1024 those numbers that you know, we've all just know the powers of two it it's off

00:43:35   And it's because of the slot population right so all the all the all the modules are 816 32 64 128 right?

00:43:43   But then it's like four of this one six of this one

00:43:46   12 of that one all of the configs are either six six of this one or twelve of that one

00:43:51   They're all either six or twelve half the slots filled or all the slots filled except for the base model, which is four

00:43:57   Yeah, and so my question is and I don't know the answer

00:44:01   I actually tried to research it today and came up short because I'm so far out of this world is I have no idea

00:44:07   Since you can use four and then you can use six

00:44:10   Can you also use eight if you yourself go out and buy the RAM and open the case?

00:44:15   You know do the thing, you know, because who doesn't want to if you get it

00:44:19   You got to open it. Even if you don't want to add RAM or anything

00:44:21   You got to open the case and just look at it, right?

00:44:23   So if you're gonna add RAM yourself, can you use I mean, of course you have to have even pairs

00:44:28   You're not gonna be able to put seven right here, but could you make an eight chip config yourself or attend?

00:44:34   right because they're not selling eights or eights or tens here actually this goes back to Apple's

00:44:39   Margin on these things too. That's got to be a calculation right is this is an extremely upgradeable

00:44:45   Expandable computer so at some point the convenience of getting it pre-populated with the RAM that you want

00:44:52   is

00:44:54   Gonna be outweighed by

00:44:56   overpricing the RAM right because unlike other Apple systems that are out there

00:45:01   it's gonna be real easy to install more RAM in this thing and

00:45:05   Presumably third parties will sell you

00:45:08   DDR4 ECC memory for not cheap but for maybe cheaper than Apple if Apple marks it up too much

00:45:14   So that's you know that that's kind of fast like do you buy this with 1.5 terabytes of RAM in it or do you say?

00:45:20   You know, I'm let's wait and see what that market bears because if you could get that

00:45:25   Those 12 128 for 20 grand or for 15 grand instead of for 25. Maybe it's worth it. Maybe it's not

00:45:31   I don't know. Well and let's face it

00:45:33   I don't expect this machine to be updated in a while right the Xeon and the Xeon chips

00:45:37   Just don't get updated in a long time

00:45:39   The iMac Pro still hasn't gotten in a CPU update and that's two years old and it's not yeah

00:45:45   it's not for a lack of

00:45:47   Apple's effort I don't think from everything I can see about the market

00:45:54   It's because there's no Xeon class chips that would fit in those thermal constraints that have come out since then

00:46:00   And I think given their newfound commitment to the pro market which I think is sincere

00:46:07   I think as soon as those some Xeon chips that would make for a nice update to the iMac Pro

00:46:13   I think soon thereafter iMac pros with them will come out and wouldn't be even be surprised if if

00:46:18   The iMac Pro is the first machines to come out with them

00:46:22   It would wouldn't surprise me also because the I know we're gonna get to the pro display XDR later

00:46:28   But one interesting quirk about it is that I'm a pro is not supported by that monitor

00:46:34   So it may be a thing where you would think at one point Apple's gonna want to do a processor update

00:46:38   But also a graphics card update so that they can yeah, I'm a pro that'll work with a pro display XDR

00:46:43   Yeah, you would definitely think so

00:46:45   so I

00:46:48   You know, I think that's coming

00:46:51   But I don't expect this machine, this initial new Mac Pro to be updated in quite a long

00:46:58   time.

00:46:59   I mean, you know, maybe a year if everything goes great, and Intel gets their act together

00:47:03   and has a solid roadmap, but I wouldn't be surprised if it goes more than a year.

00:47:08   And that's just the nature of these chips.

00:47:10   And so what I'm what I'm trying to get to when we're talking about RAM is 12 months

00:47:15   from now, this might still be the Mac Pro and the market price for DDR4 ECC RAM might be significantly

00:47:25   lower. And it might make a lot more, might make obvious sense to just buy the base model, throw

00:47:32   out, just take out the 32 gigs they give you, throw it out and put your own 12, 128 gigabyte

00:47:37   DDR chips in there for less than $25,000. I think there's a good question about how this

00:47:45   ages because it's so modular that you know Apple could keep it you know keep

00:47:49   it as this configuration for a long time especially if the Xeons that just you

00:47:54   know they're they're relatively young and there's not going to be another

00:47:57   generation for a while and they just kind of keep them in there but if new

00:48:01   graphics cards come out yeah you know if if any of the other details if they

00:48:06   release another you know they do a different kind of afterburner card or or

00:48:09   something like that like they can add pieces to the configurator without like

00:48:14   changing the computer, but it becomes over time, it becomes a different computer, or

00:48:19   changing the base model. And I expect them to do that actually, because they have shown

00:48:24   in the past two years, they have shown a willingness to upgrade machines. mid cycle with just graphics

00:48:32   card updates, right? MacBook Pros got build to order graphics updates. Was that it was

00:48:39   a year ago, right? It was when they held that event at at Brooklyn at the Brooklyn Academy

00:48:45   of Music. They, you know, quietly announced. And I say quietly, not because you know, people

00:48:50   use that word in the press to mean semi hidden. It wasn't something they were trying to hide.

00:48:54   It just wasn't part of the show, because they were wanted to talk about the new MacBook

00:48:59   Air that was finally retina, etc, etc. But one of the announcements that day was that

00:49:03   they had like new build the order options to get faster Radeon graphics and MacBook

00:49:07   pros without any other updates to the machine. So if they'll do it for MacBook Pros, why

00:49:12   wouldn't they do it with the Mac Pro?

00:49:14   Yeah, exactly. They have shown everybody got really upset when the MacBook Pro went, what,

00:49:21   a year and a month between updates. But like they have shown that on average, as this annual

00:49:27   processor update cycle happens, they are throwing updates in. That's part of that guarantee

00:49:32   or whatever the promise that they made 980 days ago. And I think they've delivered on

00:49:37   So I would imagine that as new tech happens that will be applicable for the Mac Pro, they'll stick it in there.

00:49:44   And the beauty of that is that because it's a modular Mac, they don't need to qualify it as a new model.

00:49:51   And you're right. All they need to do is say, oh, new graphics card came out. Here's the Mac Pro configuration.

00:49:56   Yeah, go right. And then that's it. They don't need to say, please wait three months and then we'll introduce a new 2021 Mac Pro.

00:50:03   Like they don't have to do that.

00:50:04   Right. There's certainly things that people can complain about, which primarily like starting price for this Mac Pro.

00:50:10   But one thing that I can't see how anybody could deny is that when they said nine hundred and eighty some days ago that it would be a modular design.

00:50:18   This is a very much. This is the day. I don't see how you could hope for a more modular design.

00:50:23   It is arguably more modular than any Mac has ever been.

00:50:27   Any Mac.

00:50:28   Yeah.

00:50:30   So let's go on to storage.

00:50:32   They've got four storage options today for 20 to 56 one terabyte. That's a plus 400 two terabytes plus 800

00:50:40   four terabytes SSD 1400

00:50:43   the eight terabyte this is curious to me because you can buy a

00:50:48   MacBook Pro a 16 inch MacBook Pro with a terabytes today

00:50:52   But you can't it's marked marked is coming soon

00:50:55   For the mac Pro I that's that seems odd to me

00:51:02   I mean I

00:51:04   I you know, I don't understand, you know, I'm sure that there is a perfectly reasonable operations

00:51:12   explanation for it and

00:51:15   But anyway those upgrade prices given the starting prices

00:51:20   Are very much in line they're exactly the same they're not charging more for SSD storage on the Mac Pro

00:51:27   So based on the price of the MacBook Pro

00:51:30   We can I I would bet money that the upgrade price to get the 8 terabyte will be plus twenty six hundred

00:51:37   And that's yeah, it makes makes sense

00:51:40   That's a lot for I think that's a lot for a disc but it there is 8 terabytes of SSD is

00:51:46   unprecedented the Apple said a month ago when they when they introduced the 16 inch MacBook Pro that as far as they're aware and

00:51:53   8 this 8 terabyte SSD drive is the first in the industry and nobody else has denied that since so it's you know

00:52:02   the best in the industry

00:52:04   Yeah, if there's a if there's a criticism that I understand about the Mac Pro

00:52:07   It's that some of its specs are actually lower than the base model

00:52:11   I Mac Pro for the same price or for a thousand dollars less actually and the SSD is the example like the Mac Pro ships with

00:52:17   a 1 terabyte SSD and this thing starts at 256 and the

00:52:21   The argument I've gotten, and I think this is why they did it this way, is a lot of customers

00:52:28   of this product don't want a large amount of internal SSD because these things, a lot of them,

00:52:35   are going to be put in places where they're going to get wired into a giant storage network,

00:52:40   and they don't really need internal storage for those because they've got high-end,

00:52:45   pro storage that they're attached to. And so they're like, "Okay, you don't need to buy it

00:52:49   with a lot of storage. A regular standalone person, an independent filmmaker who does all

00:52:54   their work on one of these and is going to put it on their desk. They might need more storage,

00:52:59   although even then they probably got a high-speed storage solution of their own.

00:53:02   Just looking at the Twitter feed today from our mutual friends of ours who are developers,

00:53:08   who are in the market for it, because developers clearly are people who can take advantage of this.

00:53:13   compiling stuff in Xcode takes time and sure as everybody knows if they know any developer friends

00:53:20   if you're writing in Swift which a lot of developers really like to do but it takes more

00:53:25   time takes a lot more time and you're sitting there waiting for every time you make a change

00:53:31   you got to sit there and wait it's a huge productivity suck it it really is I actually

00:53:36   have experienced this in the last week or two myself as there's this app that my friend Will

00:53:42   Haines has made called ketoba. It is I don't know if you I linked to it a while ago. But

00:53:50   basically it's a little it's an iOS app that lets you it's a dictionary app for iOS. And

00:53:58   it's very simple interface you do work lookups. But the trick is is that the dictionary uses

00:54:03   is the built in iOS system dictionary, the new American Heritage Dictionary and the new

00:54:07   American Heritage writers, thesaurus, and any other system dictionaries that you're allowed to,

00:54:13   you can download in iOS when you do a lookup in any app. It's not available in the App Store,

00:54:19   because there's an App Store rule that you can't use the system dictionary to make a dictionary

00:54:26   app. And you might think, well, that's a strange rule. And I don't know the reason for the rule,

00:54:31   but I strongly suspect it's the obvious one, if you think about it, which is that they got a

00:54:36   better licensing deal from new American to include it than they would have if they didn't include the

00:54:43   rule that you can't make a dictionary app that you can only use it for these lookups. But it's a great

00:54:48   app. And will Haines is working on an update to it and friend of the show and your mutual friend,

00:54:55   Craig Hockenberry, he have the little very large fleshy palm has been contributing to it. We've

00:55:00   got a great update in the works. Anyway, you get it on GitHub, it's open source, so we can't put it

00:55:05   it in the App Store. But we can make it open source and you can download but anyway, I've

00:55:10   been I haven't contributed anything other than my interface feedback, but to play along

00:55:15   and to use it, I'm, you know, playing along and updating it via get pulling down changes,

00:55:21   compiling it and installing it on my iPad and my iPhone and stuff. And so I know how

00:55:26   slow Xcode can be for what is truly a very small app. It is a really, really, really,

00:55:33   Really small app because the bulk of it is the the stuff that's the built-in dictionary panel and stuff like that

00:55:40   It's it's slow

00:55:43   And that's for a really really small app

00:55:45   and I even know the other thing too, I noticed the difference going from my

00:55:49   four or four year old, uh, 13 inch macbook pro to this 15 inch 16 inch, uh,

00:55:55   There you go again 15 16 inch brand new mac 15 plus one

00:56:00   It is it's it's it's one of the few things where I really notice holy crap, this thing is much faster

00:56:05   like the two things where I notice it are launching apps cold, where at this point,

00:56:11   the 16 inch MacBook Pro when you launch an app, it's like I just launched the

00:56:16   official Twitter for Mac app today to see something. And I was like, holy crap,

00:56:20   I didn't know I had that running already. But it wasn't running already. It launches so fast that

00:56:24   it. It's indistinguishable to the naked eye from an app that

00:56:29   isn't running. Xcode is one of those things. There's a very

00:56:32   long aside to say, developers want definitely might want the

00:56:35   Mac Pro. And if they do, they're, they're not going to

00:56:38   want 256 gigabytes in their startup drive.

00:56:42   That mean, again, I'm with you. I don't think I think it's right

00:56:46   that the base model offers it because I think there are use

00:56:49   cases where that makes sense. And it doesn't make sense to

00:56:53   charge them a $400 premium to start at one terabyte. But

00:56:58   basically, I think you made the same point, but I'll make it

00:57:01   again. If you're going to use this as a personal workstation,

00:57:05   whatever your uses visual effects, high end photography,

00:57:09   video editing, software development and Xcode. You don't

00:57:14   want the base model of anything. There's no base, the base

00:57:17   config isn't good for you in any way. It's and including storage.

00:57:23   Yeah, I mean, I don't know. The processor might be the memory.

00:57:28   Yeah.

00:57:29   Could be. The graphics card could be.

00:57:32   Well, graphics card could be. Graphics card definitely.

00:57:34   The storage, I'd say very clearly like.

00:57:36   Yeah.

00:57:37   That base storage is not a real number. In fact, other than that they want to be under six grand, the truth is that that should be a minus 400 off of a base price of $6,399.

00:57:47   Yeah, yeah.

00:57:48   The truth is if you're, unless you're plugging it into a storage network where you have very large

00:57:54   high-speed storage elsewhere and you're just using it as a boot drive, you don't want a 256 SSD.

00:58:00   - Yeah.

00:58:00   - Or you're installing a RAID. Like, there are RAIDs available for this thing where you can plug

00:58:06   in four spinning disks and have a fast RAID internally. But if you're just going by the

00:58:11   the internal storage 256 is not enough. So if you're if you're

00:58:15   that person, you're going to be adding on just right out of the

00:58:19   game.

00:58:19   Let me revise my my comment. I don't think I think you're right

00:58:23   ground. In fact, I know someone who just ordered one today, who

00:58:26   did get the base graphics because what he does isn't

00:58:28   graphics related at all. So graphics is probably one where a

00:58:31   lot of developers in particular might be just fine with the base

00:58:35   graphics. You may not want to upgrade everything from the base

00:58:39   model, but there's got to be something there's something

00:58:41   that's the nature of your work that you need more than the base

00:58:44   model. And I suspect for almost everybody RAM is part of it. I

00:58:48   mean, 32 gigabytes is table stakes these days. It's

00:58:53   possible the processor might be something you could deal with,

00:58:58   but it's hard to say, but something depends on depends on

00:59:02   what you need. I mean, my feeling so I bought an iMac Pro

00:59:06   years ago and I bought the base model and I had a bunch of people like you

00:59:12   know Marco was talking about how you know the 10 core is the sweet spot and I

00:59:15   think James Thompson got the 10 core and you know but I got the base model and my

00:59:20   reasoning was I barely need this computer right like so for me it was I

00:59:25   do enough with the audio plugins and stuff where I I can and I've been very

00:59:30   happy with it. Use an iMac Pro. But anything beyond this is like, I was already pushing it.

00:59:36   Like this is no further. And I can see a lot of people who look at this. I mean, we've been

00:59:40   talking about how high the base price is, but there's going to be a lot of people in there

00:59:45   who's like, "I really want it. It's already overkill. I don't need to kill it anymore."

00:59:49   And the base is fine for them. But I think a lot of people are going to be, who really have those

00:59:54   higher end needs, are going to do just what Marco and a bunch of other people we know did two years

00:59:59   years ago with the iMac Pro, we could start to do the math of adding these cores and what's

01:00:04   the best landing spot in terms of price and performance as you add cores to whatever it

01:00:09   is that you do in your job. I don't know what the answer is going to be, but I would imagine

01:00:13   in the next few weeks we're going to have somebody say, "You know, the 12 core is really

01:00:17   where it's at," or, "The 16 core," and we'll find out that. There's going to be a big chunk

01:00:22   of people who are like, "Look, I already shouldn't buy this computer, so I'm going to get the

01:00:27   base model but maybe not the storage don't don't do that don't do the 256 is

01:00:31   it there's nothing worse than buying a $6,000 computer and then not having

01:00:34   enough room to put your software on it because the SSD is too small don't do

01:00:37   that it's all right next step Apple afterburner $2,000 I don't really know

01:00:47   what the hell this thing is I know what it does it's you know like for vector

01:00:51   computation and stuff. It sounds fascinating. I can't wait to see.

01:00:55   I feel like this is like the ProRes video in code. So like I was watching

01:00:59   MKBHD's video today and he said, you know, I don't work in ProRes, I'm working

01:01:03   in this other format. And so I haven't tested this yet. So it's like a very

01:01:07   much like an Apple Final Cut Pro workflow of like you're using ProRes,

01:01:11   which was, which is super intensive. And this is a programmable card, right?

01:01:15   That's one of the things we learned in June is that, you know, theoretically,

01:01:18   this could be programmed to do other things. It's basically a programmable

01:01:22   card that's been programmed to be this ProRes thing. But like if you're a video

01:01:25   pro who has a ProRes based workflow, you plug this thing in and your life is

01:01:31   better. That's basically the story. Yeah, I can't wait. I feel like it's the sort

01:01:38   of thing that can make for some great demos. I can't wait to see what people do

01:01:40   with it. Yep. $2,000 bucks. Yeah, there's gonna be somebody out there who does, who

01:01:45   has, I haven't seen it yet, but there's gonna be somebody out there with a

01:01:48   ProRes workflow who's going to say, "Oh, this used to take 10 minutes and now it takes one minute,"

01:01:53   or whatever. I also think this is the sort of thing too that we'll get because it's all Apple

01:01:59   technology. Apple's got like complete control of what's going on in here. It's not up to

01:02:03   Radeon and AMD and it's not up, certainly not up to Intel. So I think with Apple's internal chip

01:02:10   team, I wouldn't be surprised if the Apple afterburner card gets updated on a 12-month

01:02:15   basis like clockwork, you know, that like the way the a series chips do, and that for $2,000 next

01:02:22   year, there'll be an Apple afterburner card that like doubles the performance or something, you

01:02:26   know, like that. And it'll still be 2000. The software side of it is intriguing, because it's

01:02:32   programmable. So it could also be that in six months or a year, they come out and say, the

01:02:37   afterburner can also do this other thing if you want it to, and you just run this software, and

01:02:41   it reprograms the card. Yeah. And so at the exact same exactly, that's the programmable nature of it.

01:02:46   And so like the MKBHD thing, like maybe you're using some other format other than ProRes. And

01:02:52   all of a sudden, oh, well, your format now can encode 10 times faster to huge, huge potential

01:02:59   upside there for video people. And who knows what other use cases? Yeah, here we come to my favorite

01:03:07   feet or wheels?

01:03:09   It's so that here's the best part here's the best part the wheels are not like casters that you stick on the bottom

01:03:18   Which would be cheaper you would think

01:03:20   This is again just like we were saying about the rack mounted like

01:03:24   There are two stainless steel frames for the Mac Pro

01:03:28   there's the one with feet and there's the one with wheels and you have to pick and

01:03:34   And if you get the one with wheels, it's an extra 400 bucks, which is a hundred dollars a wheel.

01:03:38   You called it.

01:03:40   I want to applaud you for doing this because you did the what's the over under and what's it going to cost.

01:03:44   And I always say, find out what you're willing to pay, then push it up to where it's going to be painful, but you're willing to pay it,

01:03:52   then push it up from there and then round it upward.

01:03:55   And that's what Apple will charge you for whatever it is.

01:03:57   And it's $400 for the wheel frame.

01:03:59   All right, so my my guess and you know, you could say well I guess 399 that was my guess

01:04:07   So what I did last night on Twitter is I thought it'd be fun

01:04:09   I like to gamble and and when you gamble on

01:04:12   football and basketball a lot of times you can bet on what's called the over/under and the

01:04:16   over/under is there's a number and for a football game and let's say it's 46 points and

01:04:21   If you bet the over you're betting that the combined score of the two teams will be over 46

01:04:27   And if you bet the under you're betting the combined score is under

01:04:30   So the over under on this would be I set the over under last night at 349

01:04:36   and I think I didn't I didn't do it as a Twitter poll because I

01:04:41   Used tweet bot and most of my friends either use tweet bot or Twitter ethic and third party

01:04:46   I can't see polls can't see him and Twitter ethic does some really clever stuff to identify if it thinks it's a pole and

01:04:53   Sort of redirects you to like a web view so you can do it

01:04:56   But I just I'm not into the pole thing because it's not available to third-party clients

01:05:00   And so I don't have an exact answer

01:05:02   I probably should have you know when I have done polls in the past I say I say to help my friends my fellow

01:05:07   Twitter if it users

01:05:10   This is a Twitter poll go look at this tweet and in the web app, yep

01:05:14   I should have done that to see what people bet but eyeballing my replies. I set the over/under at 3 49 and

01:05:22   I I think the under one most people seem to be betting in the

01:05:28   $200 range for a set of four wheels and you know

01:05:32   There were others who were over but and then I tweeted again and said that was just where I set the over-under to try to

01:05:39   Get people, you know, you said the if you're the bookie setting the number

01:05:42   You don't want to you don't put the number that you think it's going to be you put the number

01:05:47   That you think will get half of the people to bet under and have to bet over and you the bookie come out ahead

01:05:53   because if you get half on one side and half on the other you collect a vig a

01:05:58   10% vig from all the losers and you don't have to pay a vig to the winners. That's how you bookies come out ahead

01:06:04   so

01:06:06   Generally, that number is close to what they think the actual over under will be but it's not necessarily the same

01:06:12   So my over/under was 349 to try to get people on both sides guessing on Twitter, but my my guess was 399

01:06:19   So I was almost spot-on

01:06:21   Yeah, I think so and and I think you did a good job

01:06:24   I think you set the over/under pretty well because I think there were you know

01:06:28   Actually, you could have even said it lower I think because I think they're really too -

01:06:31   Schools of thought on this which is it'll either be not nearly as expensive as you think or way more expensive than you think

01:06:39   Basically it you know what you're right because I just talked you I just proved I was right when I explained how it works because I

01:06:44   Really do think there was more action on the under and so I should have said it lower

01:06:48   I probably like 299 or 300 300 in the number the thing I forgot I forgot that build to order options are

01:06:55   not

01:06:57   99 numbers they're even zero zero numbers so that

01:07:00   Your config ends up with a 99, right?

01:07:05   So if you if you upgrade the RAM you pay an even hundred some dollars or what am I talking thousand some dollars here?

01:07:12   And if you upgrade the storage you end up with another thousand dollars and then the end price is still

01:07:18   fifty two thousand one hundred ninety nine not fifty two thousand one hundred ninety two which would be gross who wants to buy a

01:07:25   $50,000 computer that ends in 92

01:07:28   Yeah, no, no kidding. No kidding

01:07:32   Also, it's the great psychology of saying well, yeah, I know but it's not fifty three thousand dollars

01:07:36   Yeah, so how did I guess how did I guess three ninety nine? I?

01:07:40   Number one. It's like your thing about what do you think you want to pay?

01:07:44   And then make it more painful crack it up a little bit and then there was the question

01:07:50   I asked jaws on stage at my live talk show earlier this year. How much of the wheels gonna cost?

01:07:57   [LAUGHTER]

01:07:59   [APPLAUSE]

01:08:02   I mean, what really is a perfect wheel worth?

01:08:09   [LAUGHTER]

01:08:13   How many do you want?

01:08:14   I mean, yeah.

01:08:14   How many do you need?

01:08:16   Well, that's the thing.

01:08:18   I'm imagining that they're very nice wheels.

01:08:20   I was really sort of hoping that the hand--

01:08:23   if there were wheels in the hands-on area, I missed them.

01:08:26   I really I wanted to sit there and there was one and their installment plans available

01:08:30   They all save up

01:08:35   alright, so

01:08:37   Jaws is answer

01:08:39   Played for laughs there sure

01:08:41   And it was all good. No knowing laughs though knowing laughs right right all right and

01:08:48   You know, but that's that's the genius of a guy like Jaws is he knew they were gonna be expensive

01:08:54   And maybe they didn't have a price yet

01:08:55   Maybe they didn't know exactly and it wasn't like they were trying to hide it

01:08:59   but he knew that they were building really really nice wheels like

01:09:02   It like people laugh like I have friends who don't really follow closely

01:09:08   Like my friend Lee from ops in laundromat who doesn't even use a Mac

01:09:12   He uses an iPhone, but he just stays tuned to like social media and like at the end of WWDC week

01:09:18   He like texted me is hey

01:09:20   He goes like John. Are you kidding me that they're selling a thousand dollar monitor stand

01:09:25   It's like nope not kidding you like somehow news of that leaked out to like the real world that Apple was selling a thousand dollar stand

01:09:33   For my daughter did the same thing she came home from school one day and was like

01:09:38   Really thousand dollar monitor stand like and well, it's complicated. But yeah, right. Yeah, but it's not it's not like just some you know

01:09:46   Stick with a screw on the end of it

01:09:49   If I'd suspect given Apple's regular margins, it really is a thousand dollar mechanical device

01:09:55   You know, it's it's super I mean arguably over engineered

01:09:59   But yeah

01:09:59   It's engineered and it locks in

01:10:01   horizontal and it locks in a separate vertical where it raises up and then it won't go down like it's it's and it will it's

01:10:07   Seriously engineered right and it won't let you rotate the display if it isn't high enough

01:10:12   For the display to go from horizontal to vertical orientation

01:10:18   You know, it's all true. And so I but I I do think that these are $400 wheels. I really do now

01:10:25   Are there a lot of people who have a use case for this machine? We're having it on wheels is

01:10:32   What they want who would be much happier with lower grade wheels

01:10:37   Like let's just say the wheels from like an Aeron chair

01:10:41   uh-huh

01:10:43   Who would be much happier just putting

01:10:47   $100 set of wheels on the same Mac Pro. Yeah, I think there's a lot of them

01:10:52   I mean did Apple need to make super premium $400 wheels? No, but

01:10:57   You know, I think I think they're thinking well you're spending $6,000 for a computer

01:11:02   We're gonna make the wheels not look cheap because that's also it's Apple, right?

01:11:06   But it's also we got this beautiful stainless steel frame and the beautiful aluminum skin and we're gonna make these awesome wheels I had

01:11:12   For my power Mac g4. I think I had a thing that was basically like a Lucite

01:11:17   skateboard with essentially air on chair wheels on it in order to make it a wheeled configuration.

01:11:24   And I use those wheels all the time to move it around in my, you know, when I was, you know,

01:11:28   it was like in my closet and I had to pull it in order to pull it out in order to install things

01:11:33   in it and stuff like that. So I can see the need. I will also predict now that somebody probably 12

01:11:38   South will have add on wheels for the existing configuration that will cost quite a bit less

01:11:44   than $400. Yes, I think it won't be as nice, but will be nice enough as an aftermarket thing. And

01:11:50   that if you really don't care about how nice the wheels are, you just want to wheel it around,

01:11:54   there will be some sort of third party sets of wheels for $129 or something like that,

01:12:00   that you can safely secure, you know, maybe like with a skateboard. I don't know. I mean,

01:12:05   you don't really, does anybody really care? But there you go, $400. Yep. Yep. For the wheels.

01:12:13   It was funny, did you ask, I remember at WWDC asking in, you know, I, so the best was that clip I played where, you know, I asked Jaws on stage and he couldn't really, no answer out of it and he handled it brilliantly. But I remember asking privately, hey, how much do the wheels cost? You know, like talking, you know, like in the hands on area after the after the right and they, I forget what they say. They have like the best non answers. They're like, we're not talking about pricing today. Something like that.

01:12:42   something like that pricing for the wheels.

01:12:44   Yeah, I love it when you ask a question that's off the script and you and these poor people who are generally not like the super high test marketing people, right?

01:12:52   There are people who've been conscripted to do the demos and they've been trained on what to say and they've got like a pattern that they go through and then you ask them a question that's totally off the script and they get this look like not it's not just I don't know the answer but it's like oh if I say something wrong here, they're really going to get me.

01:13:07   Well, you know and then they they brush it off and you move on

01:13:11   So the highest end configuration you get if you max everything out

01:13:17   Oh, the other thing we should talk about is with the before we go on to this is with the graphics

01:13:23   there's two coming soon graphics cards, right and I

01:13:27   Don't know what they're going to cost but I asked I double-checked with Syracuse

01:13:33   And he said they you know, they're they're the caliber of card that would slot

01:13:38   They're not like all the other coming soon stuff is like the highest end config like the 1.25

01:13:43   Gigabytes of

01:13:46   Storage the rack mount instead of the desktop mount

01:13:50   These aren't high-end

01:13:52   configs these are like above the base model but below the

01:13:57   Current first upgrade level of the Radeon Pro Vega 2 and that makes sense

01:14:02   If you just look at the amount of RAM on all of these cards, I don't know anything about modern high-end video cards, but the

01:14:09   first two upgrades are 32 gigabytes

01:14:13   And the second two are 32 or 2 by 32 gigabytes

01:14:18   So if you just go by how much RAM is on the card

01:14:24   it seems pretty clear these would slot in below and

01:14:26   Syracusa estimates that they'll probably maybe be like a thousand dollar update or maybe you know

01:14:31   like eight hundred and sixteen hundred or something like that so that there's a

01:14:35   Much smoother continuum between the base model and the first current first available upgrade for graphics card, which is twenty four hundred dollars

01:14:43   Which is pretty significant for one tick up on the graphics, right?

01:14:47   Right, and this is this is actually an announcement on today to December 10th that they announced this

01:14:52   there's actually an AMD press release about it.

01:14:54   So they coming. - I did not notice.

01:14:57   - Yeah, but not available yet, but coming soon.

01:15:01   Again, whatever that means.

01:15:02   I also think for everybody who's following

01:15:04   John Syracuse's odyssey of having a cheese grater Mac Pro

01:15:07   for 10 years and waiting for this model

01:15:09   so that he can buy one.

01:15:11   My understanding is that this is the graphics card

01:15:13   that John wants. - Yeah.

01:15:15   - Oh, so just keep deferring, I guess.

01:15:18   And again, it also comes in with the

01:15:22   With what does coming soon mean right like right coming soon January 1st

01:15:28   Cuz that might fit very closely with when Syracuse it was gonna order anyway, because he's not really an order on day one

01:15:35   He's a he's he wants to sit on these options for you know

01:15:38   At least a couple of weeks and maybe you know see what happened

01:15:42   He said on the show maybe you know

01:15:43   let people early adopters get them and see if they're actually as promised before he

01:15:48   puts his money in.

01:15:49   I mean, honestly, he seems a little tight with his money if you ask me.

01:15:55   Well I think he should have bought a 5k iMac when it came out years ago and he would have

01:15:59   been using a modern Mac for the last five years exactly right he's decided to wait and

01:16:03   is still waiting his inability to compromises is admirable in some ways.

01:16:07   It is admirable yes it is what makes him who he is and that's why we love him.

01:16:11   And so for example, he's not going to compromise by getting a better video card for $2,400

01:16:18   that he is convinced he doesn't need.

01:16:20   And he's probably right, even though he's been waiting 10 years and the cost of that

01:16:26   $2,400 upgrade that's available today versus what he could get if he waits is probably

01:16:33   you know, like $800 or something like that or $1,000.

01:16:36   And if you amortize that over ten years he's been waiting, it comes out to pennies per

01:16:42   day.

01:16:43   But he'll wait.

01:16:45   Anyway, the maxed out config you can buy today is $52,199.

01:16:53   And if you add the 8 terabyte SSD that is coming, which I think will be $1,200 more

01:16:59   than the current price, you'd get $53,399.

01:17:05   But that does not include wheels.

01:17:10   And again, I'm laughing.

01:17:11   I've never bought a car that expensive.

01:17:14   So I'm laughing.

01:17:15   I'm laughing.

01:17:16   But I don't think it's ridiculous.

01:17:17   I'm glad Apple's making a $54,000 computer.

01:17:20   And you know, in other industries, not computer, but like, you know, if you're in like construction

01:17:26   or something like that, buying tractors or construction equipment that costs $50,000.

01:17:33   Is a no-brainer right? I mean I was reading and I'm not surprised by this

01:17:40   I'm not surprised at all that you know some people who are outside of the

01:17:44   the market for pickup trucks

01:17:47   Just have no idea but a lot of people

01:17:50   Who have pickup trucks are super serious about them and they use them in really serious ways

01:17:56   And you know this is in the context of reading in the context of the Tesla

01:18:01   super mega cyber truck

01:18:03   That people who buy trucks spend a lot of money on them and it's you know

01:18:08   It's one of the reasons that the car companies if you watch sports, you know

01:18:12   Like spend an awful lot of time advertising pickup trucks, which is a relatively small part of the market overall

01:18:18   At least it like an urban area like where I live

01:18:22   But it's because they're super people are they're willing to spend a lot of money on them

01:18:27   Construction equipment all sorts of industries medical equipment right like how much the doctors pay for high-end diagnostic equipment

01:18:35   you know why shouldn't people who spend their time in front of a

01:18:38   Workstation computer be able to spend that much money on something that's central to their work

01:18:45   So I laugh it's not a luxury product in that way

01:18:49   It's a luxury product if you don't need it and you want to buy it because it's cool

01:18:52   but if you're somebody who is in a high-end professional production environment where they're spending

01:18:58   You like the camera you're not gonna buy a camera you're gonna use your phone

01:19:01   But if you bought a camera it would be a thousand dollar camera or a two thousand dollar camera well

01:19:05   They're they're buying a camera for eighty thousand dollars

01:19:08   And they're buying a lighting rig for hundreds of thousands of dollars and like they're buying a storage area network and installing it

01:19:14   And that's gonna cost them tens of thousands of dollars for them or hundreds of thousands of dollars for them a fifty thousand dollar

01:19:20   config of a computer is not a big deal. It's not like that money is play money, but it's like they're

01:19:26   in the context of a much larger business that has a lot of expensive equipment because that's their

01:19:31   business. Yeah. And I also think that in the context of that, like some kind of high-end 3d

01:19:36   imaging dingus, you know, like for like a oral surgeon or, or, you know, any kind of doctor who

01:19:44   needs to see inside your body and has this high-end thing, you know, that maybe it does cost

01:19:48   $400 just to get the same thing with wheels. I don't maybe so I wouldn't be surprised if it's

01:19:55   even more in some cases because they're even less price sensitive than computer people who

01:20:02   seem to you know who know the price of individual video cards and stuff like that.

01:20:06   Right and if there's a smart person negotiating on the other end of the line for that you know for

01:20:12   that production house that's going to order 15 of them they're going to say you know what I'd like

01:20:17   the wheels but i'm not going to pay for them let's you know i'll buy another one if you throw in the

01:20:20   wheels and there's probably negotiation that actually happens at that level anyway yeah

01:20:25   all right let's take a break and i thank our next sponsor and oh i cannot wait to tell you about

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01:21:09   Guess what?

01:21:10   Daring Fireball itself for the last month, maybe even to the date.

01:21:14   I think it was I think it was I forget what date in November we switched it over but it's close to a month

01:21:19   Jason even knows about that a little bit because I had some movable type. Uh-huh hacking that was involved

01:21:26   Daring all three of us in the movable type community heard about that

01:21:31   Daring fireball itself is now running on Linode after

01:21:36   I believe

01:21:39   13 years at my previous host

01:21:42   It was a long time and oh my god. Am I happy with it?

01:21:45   I knew I would be but it just shows how nuts I am that I

01:21:48   Procrastinated on this until I did it is fantastic. It is so so

01:21:53   You the reader of daring fireball probably don't notice any difference

01:21:57   Although you might but daring fireball has always been very fast to load because it's very snappy

01:22:01   But from my perspective on the back end dealing with movable type something some things that have been very slow are suddenly

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01:22:11   I attribute it to the SSD storage

01:22:13   Everything is great though. It's got they have a great great control panel

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01:22:26   That part of it is that this is I'm so much happier as the person using my site hosted on this server

01:22:33   But I'm saving

01:22:37   My bill my monthly bill for hosting during fireball has gone from around five hundred and fifty dollars a month to like $80 a month

01:22:44   so I'm saving like I

01:22:48   Could buy a Mac Pro maybe by the end of the year just based on the money I'm saving

01:22:54   No, I guess not but I could come close but it's it's just it's so much less expensive a so much better

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01:24:01   Let me take a break here and tell it while we're on it just segue right into this

01:24:06   Basically the problem I ran into is I have never been able to post emoji to daring fireball

01:24:14   and

01:24:17   And then I figured out while we were testing it that I could it just wasn't the emoji that I wanted to use and

01:24:28   It is it was it was the days long saga that getting movable type up a trance, you know

01:24:35   Moving the database from the old server

01:24:37   Exporting it importing it to the new one getting movable type in my friend Ryan Schwartz who helped me with all this

01:24:43   He's a professional sys admin who I've known from my joint days

01:24:45   got it all up and running on first crack and

01:24:49   It was beautiful. But except the one thing I said, well, here's the thing one of the things I wanted to fix with the

01:24:55   moving this is I want to be able to put emoji in my posts and

01:24:58   when I've used emoji in the past because I can't put the literal emoji characters in and have them go through is I had to

01:25:05   Translate them to HTML entities and HTML entities are ugly anyway, but like multi byte Unicode ones are really ugly

01:25:13   they're like eight character hexadecimal strings wrapped in the H, you know the ampersand and then the

01:25:18   Semicolon at the end and so there's no human readability to them at all

01:25:25   days long saga. And basically it boils down to this. My SQL, which is the database I'm using,

01:25:32   and which is the database that I think movable type, which is really outdated and old, but rock

01:25:37   solid and stable works best with in my SQL. The text encoding for a for a table that they call,

01:25:49   quote, "UTF8" is not "UTF8." It is a subset of "UTF8" that only allows you to post

01:26:00   "UTF8" characters up to three bytes. And most of the ones that we think of as emoji,

01:26:07   the modern picture ones like martini glasses and all the, you know, not to mention the

01:26:12   combining character ones, like so that you can put a thumbs up and change the color of the skin

01:26:19   to varying, you know, or to put a couple holding hands and make it to women or make it a, you know,

01:26:26   a woman of color and a Hispanic colored skin looking woman. All of those fancy emojis to

01:26:37   wouldn't don't work with my SQL. So you have UTF eight, what you want, if you want full you

01:26:44   UTF-8 is UTF-8 MB4 and the MB4 I guess stands for multi byte for character sequences

01:26:51   But that also works with the ones that are multi character sequences combining characters as I said

01:26:58   The problem is

01:27:02   movable type works with the UTF-8 encoding

01:27:04   But it doesn't work with UTF-8 MB4 because it's just like newer than it. I don't know

01:27:12   There's no I I don't want I don't know what the reason is

01:27:15   But the bottom line is and the thing is movable type has gotten so old

01:27:19   That it is really hard to Google for anything with it now

01:27:23   Which is really strange because I'm I've just been starting to find that where I used to be able to Google for

01:27:29   tag references and get movable type answers and something happened recently where the the reference site for that has been

01:27:36   Downgraded and yeah, it's much harder to find references. Yeah, really really hard and that's crazy

01:27:41   It's as if that software is old and out of date. Yeah, but it's strange because other stuff that's old and out of date is still easy

01:27:48   Just Google for but movable type stuff is not

01:27:50   And so it's hard to even Google and get an answer and find get someone to just say you know

01:27:58   What don't don't try using movable type with utf-8 and before it just doesn't work

01:28:04   right

01:28:06   And so the answer and here's the curious thing is I talked this is where Jason snow gets roped into it and and

01:28:12   mutual friend Greg mouse

01:28:14   Or is it can house?

01:28:17   Nos, nos, canos, just nos Greg nos like boss. Yeah

01:28:22   Who might be the the best living movable type expert? He is the world's foremost authority on movable type at this point. Yeah

01:28:31   Six colors can and has been able to just paste just put raw emoji into like titles and

01:28:38   body text for a while and so it's proof that it can work and

01:28:43   The long story short the answer is that

01:28:48   It all just works if you set the table text encoding to Latin one

01:28:54   Which is an old like before Unicode

01:28:59   Single byte text encoding meaning it only had to the single byte means there's only 255 characters

01:29:05   And most of the a lot of them in the lower range aren't really even characters their weird control sequences from like 1972

01:29:13   like Bell

01:29:16   Yeah, yeah anybody had an Apple to knows all about Bell control. Yeah, come on

01:29:20   Yeah, you type control G

01:29:22   If you don't remember you type control G which was the Bell character, and it didn't display anything it just played a sound

01:29:28   By just yeah, it's ASCII ASCII 8 is yeah. It's a beep. Yeah, so a lot of the and

01:29:35   So how does that make sense how does it make sense that using the Latin one text encoding allows you which was you know last

01:29:44   created in like

01:29:46   1985 verse 86 or something like that how in the world does that allow you to post?

01:29:53   emoji characters that are just coming out, you know, like last year or a month ago when iOS 13.2 came out and

01:30:00   The answer is because it was a single byte text encoding

01:30:04   everything that comes in is not really encoded as

01:30:07   characters it's just a sequence of bytes and if

01:30:12   1013 bytes come in in a certain order and the

01:30:18   1013 bytes go out in the same order

01:30:22   It'll all just work and if those bytes come in as properly formatted to utf-8

01:30:27   It doesn't matter what my SQL thinks of it just stores the bytes in order and then it comes out and if everything is configured

01:30:34   To treat everything coming out as utf-8 it all just works and there's probably developers out there screaming their heads off

01:30:40   Saying oh my god. That's that's a nightmare

01:30:44   But this solution of my problem was literally by switching from my SQLs utf-8 which isn't utf-8

01:30:52   to

01:30:53   Latin one

01:30:54   Which isn't Unicode at all and now computers great it all just works now

01:31:01   I know I know a lot more about text encoding miss Mitch Matt mismatches like

01:31:06   When in the back in the day you will remember this for sure a lot of people listening will but Windows and Mac had different

01:31:13   text encodings and and

01:31:15   So max was called macro or in English, and you know there was Mac Japanese, and you know

01:31:21   But the problem was they were all single byte. I don't know. I guess Japanese couldn't have been

01:31:26   I don't know how the Mac Japanese encoding were now that I think about it, but the

01:31:30   For English language of Roman Latin language speakers who use the alphabet we think of the Mac Roman text encoding was what we used

01:31:40   And it was totally different above the first

01:31:42   128 ASCII characters than the Windows one and the windows one

01:31:47   And this is where it gets really complicated is there was Windows Latin one.

01:31:51   Windows Latin one was different than like the ISO whatever Latin one, but only in a

01:31:56   only a handful of characters.

01:32:00   I got really, really good at dealing with those problems because it was super, super

01:32:06   common when I was doing graphic design back then where you'd get copy from a client and

01:32:11   it was, you know, they were using PCs and then all of a sudden it was super helpful

01:32:17   to be the Mac designer who knew how to use BB Edit

01:32:22   or something else with regular expressions

01:32:25   to manually fix text encoding by like

01:32:28   swapping out every single one of these weird ones.

01:32:31   Oh, I know what that weird looking character is.

01:32:34   That's supposed to be a curly quote.

01:32:36   And you just find and replace this weird looking thing.

01:32:39   I don't even know what it's called

01:32:41   with an actual proper opening double curly quote.

01:32:44   and this other weird character with an opening closing quote

01:32:49   and all of these are apostrophes.

01:32:51   You could just learn to recognize them.

01:32:53   And then you could build a little app.

01:32:55   -Yeah, you'd be like an O with,

01:32:57   like, the letter O with a squiggly over it,

01:32:59   and you'd be like, "That's an ellipsis.

01:33:00   I know what that is." I ended up writing a script

01:33:02   to do that at some point because I realized

01:33:05   that it was always the same, and it was just a missing code

01:33:08   because something came over the Internet and got messed up

01:33:11   where some place in the process,

01:33:13   it misunderstood what the encoding was. You just have to

01:33:16   put it back that way. Right. And it was the that whole scenario

01:33:19   was why there were so many people who use it, and I don't

01:33:24   even blame them really, who because they didn't care about

01:33:27   the type of type of graphic purity of using proper quotes,

01:33:30   they they'd say, quote, unquote, I hate curly quotes. I hate them.

01:33:34   Because they run into these issues. We're going from Mac to

01:33:39   windows, it would go across. But I totally I as nightmares as it

01:33:44   sounds using Latin one encoded tables in my SQL to store UTF

01:33:48   eight. And in a setup that I intend to use, you know, for at

01:33:54   least a decade, you know, for possibly longer, I have complete

01:33:58   confidence in it, because it really is just bites in bites

01:34:01   out. It's garbage in garbage out. And I'm confident that

01:34:05   that's, that's the beauty of it, right? Is that it's just not

01:34:07   even messing with it. It's just whatever you pass in, it passes back out.

01:34:10   Right. The only downside to it is that if you use the MySQL command-line tool at the

01:34:16   server to query a table or something like that, it will display the characters wrong,

01:34:23   because the MySQL command-line thing will look at the Latin-1 thing and helpfully format

01:34:28   your UTF-8 bytes as Latin-1. But I don't need the MySQL command-line tool to dittle with

01:34:36   my tables anyway, so that's fine. So that's my upgrade. I have the same issue. I actually

01:34:42   am now behind you because I'm already on Linode, but we have to do an update where using old

01:34:48   software is amazing, right? So movable type, we use it not because we're stubborn, maybe

01:34:52   a little bit because we're stubborn. It's the right tool for the job. And if I have

01:34:58   a need to change, I'll change. But right now it's the right tool for the job. And I know

01:35:01   it really well and Greg is the foremost expert so he's very helpful and all of that.

01:35:07   But I have discovered that we're on an old version of Ubuntu and the new version of Ubuntu

01:35:12   and it's got like you log in that says you need to update it no more critical updates

01:35:18   will be done on this system right which is great except if you go to the new version

01:35:22   it's using a version of Perl that doesn't work with new type anymore so you have to

01:35:26   do this whole thing where you then you have to change the version of Perl and we still

01:35:30   haven't done that, but we have to do that where it's like, you can update to this new

01:35:33   OS, which you have to do, but then this other part of it now is broken and then you have

01:35:37   to downgrade that in order.

01:35:39   It's a whole thing.

01:35:40   All the software at some point, at some point, we're just going to be running these things

01:35:43   in a virtual machine somewhere, right?

01:35:45   Yeah.

01:35:46   At some point in the Pearl development process, there's a whole long story about the saga

01:35:51   of Pearl five and Pearl six.

01:35:53   And I think the pro six community is actually going to just rename the language, just something

01:35:56   else.

01:35:57   Where they're going with that rock rock Roku or so

01:36:00   I don't know what the hell I can call it but good for them because it really isn't pearl six

01:36:03   it really is a new language that is

01:36:05   very very very pearly but

01:36:08   totally incompatible and different and in the meat in the meantime in literally like 15 years of

01:36:15   Maybe longer of pearl sixes development and nobody's really in my opinion or experience using it

01:36:21   The pearl five community has kept going and since pearl six was like started as a project pearls gone from like pearl

01:36:28   5.05 to like pearl

01:36:31   5.28 and that's a lot and like a

01:36:35   Pearl does a thing the pro community does a thing where the dot?

01:36:39   Odd numbers are like unstable. So like pearl

01:36:42   5.27 is unstable and pearl 5.28 is the stable version of what 27 was in development

01:36:50   But at some point in like the teens, the five point teens, the pro community got a little

01:37:00   bit aggressive about not worrying about backwards compatibility in a way that actually kind

01:37:06   of reminds me of Apple in a way that, you know, not that they're careless about backwards

01:37:12   compatibility, but that they will deprecate things with, you know, and issue warnings

01:37:17   To the community that such and such is deprecated and support for it will be dropped

01:37:22   You know two versions from now, which you know might be like a year from now or something like that

01:37:27   But like heretofore

01:37:31   Pearl had pretty much

01:37:33   You know considered breaking back anything that worked before that broke on an upgrade was considered a bug and that's more or less where movable type

01:37:41   has

01:37:43   run into problems

01:37:47   - Raku is now apparently the name of Perl 6, and Perl 5 is now just Perl again.

01:37:51   - Yeah, see, I convinced myself that it was wrong.

01:37:55   So what's it called? Raku?

01:37:57   - Raku? R-A-K-U? Raku?

01:38:00   - Raku. R-A-K-U. - It's named after, apparently, a compiler.

01:38:02   - Yeah, it's like a— - But that tells you—

01:38:04   Isn't that interesting, right? It's the idea, like,

01:38:06   "Well, we're gonna take this, and we're gonna make a brand new version,

01:38:09   and it diverges so much from the old version,

01:38:11   and the old version has so many adherents that they don't want to go to the new version,

01:38:14   that at some point both sides agree we should not have the same names anymore

01:38:18   because we're not the same project.

01:38:19   Yeah, well the thing that's really funny to me is this is like 15 years

01:38:23   into Pearl 6. It took them that long to do it.

01:38:27   But anyway, basically what you have to do, and I know you know it because

01:38:31   I talked about it with Greg, is you install an alternate version of Pearl.

01:38:35   You can't and shouldn't replace the system version of Pearl with an old

01:38:39   Pearl. You just install another version of Pearl somewhere on your machine

01:38:43   And then you just said you'd set movable type to use that in all of the little shebang lines at the top of all the scripts

01:38:50   And then you can use the system pearl for all the other stuff and then somewhere John

01:38:54   Syracuse is listening to us and pearl expert though

01:38:57   He is who has long advised never using the system pearl for anything and always I mean he's been telling me this for 20 years

01:39:04   Of me installing everything and system pearl on my max as I go along that I'm out of my mind

01:39:10   Insane that you shouldn't ever touch it. Just leave it alone. Always install your own pearl alongside it

01:39:15   Usually to get newer pearls back in the day, you know, it's the opposite problem

01:39:19   To want to have an older pearl but it's actually pretty easy and it was actually an easier part

01:39:25   It sounds like a nightmare maybe but it actually was pretty easy

01:39:28   This is never gonna be a better episode of the talk show for John Syracuse it than this one. It's all Mac Pro and pearl

01:39:37   So alright what else do we have anything else? Oh, we don't have anything else on Mac Pro, but we've got the pro display

01:39:42   XDR which we can talk about yeah, it's it's it there. It is. It's coming out. It's you can buy one now

01:39:50   works with systems from like

01:39:53   19 and 18 but not before like you got to have discrete graphics and has to be relatively recent so not the iMac Pro

01:40:01   But the and not MacBook Pro and 15 inch MacBook from last year and the new iMacs from last year or from earlier this year

01:40:07   year are in there. But the 13 inch MacBook Pro is not right, which is the to me the most conspicuous

01:40:14   update up missing one, even more than the Mac, iMac Pro, although I agree that that's got to be a top

01:40:20   one a top config for using it as a secondary display, because the iMac Pro is such a good

01:40:25   machine for so many pro uses, where somebody really might want the pro display XDR for the,

01:40:31   you know, the brightness and the image clarity and all the blah, blah, blah. Right. You know,

01:40:36   where you a movie editor you know would want the pro display XDR and use the iMac for the editing

01:40:43   iMac Pro for the editing and have the pro display XDR so I agree that's a big one but the fact that

01:40:48   the 13-inch MacBook Pro doesn't support it seems like a big deal too that doesn't have integrated

01:40:53   graphics right so I think I get the feeling like if they're going to do an update to this thing and

01:40:57   they want to support the pro XDR they're going to have to put discrete graphics in it which they

01:41:01   haven't done up to now yeah but on the other hand maybe the new maybe there will be a new

01:41:05   16-inch MacBook Pro style revision to the 13-inch and it still won't support

01:41:11   the XDR maybe that's you know 16 inch only I don't know but I would expect an

01:41:15   updated when and inevitably sometime next year a 13-inch MacBook Pro update

01:41:22   comes out that it'll support the XDR I hope so it would be a shame although I

01:41:29   mean you could make the argument that if you're using that like monitor that

01:41:34   you're probably going to be using a much higher end kind of device to drive it,

01:41:37   but I can see the value of having the smaller laptop.

01:41:41   There's a, you know,

01:41:42   in the end it's going to be Apple looking at that laptop and saying,

01:41:44   can it bear a discrete graphics in it?

01:41:47   Or is that just not what that product is about?

01:41:49   Yeah. I, you know, I don't know.

01:41:51   I don't know what the thermals and what the physical size of the,

01:41:53   those graphics that, that are needed to support it are, but we'll see.

01:41:58   But it's a conspicuous absence now. And it would be,

01:42:00   Even if it continues to not support it, it's sort of conspicuous because I can imagine that there's some people who just want the big beautiful monitor on their desk, but who want a 13 inch MacBook Pro because they want the smaller.

01:42:14   I mean, as somebody who's been using a 13 inch MacBook Pro for five years, and is now toting around this 15 inch review unit. It's definitely noticeable. I mean, it's, you know, it is not as portable as, you know, by definition, did I just call it a 15 inch again?

01:42:29   15 inch again. I think I think I think I think you did at least you're consistent. That's

01:42:34   good. What else with the Mac Pro? Oh, there's a unique keyboard mouse and trackpad colors.

01:42:42   They're they're different. They're not space gray because of course, because the Mac Pro

01:42:48   itself is not space gray. So Apple's not going to sell you space gray keyboard and mouse

01:42:53   with a not space gray Mac Pro instead they've come out with new keyboard mouse

01:42:59   and trackpad colors that are black key caps or sort of a gloss a glass the

01:43:06   black on the trackpad is the the glass is black but then it has silver

01:43:11   aluminum gray I can't wait to see the aftermarket on those you remember when

01:43:15   the iMac Pro came out and there was like they were there was a serious short run

01:43:20   eBay market to be made in selling those things because they weren't available as standalone

01:43:26   devices.

01:43:27   And then they eventually were but right right up front they weren't.

01:43:30   My belief is that that's the one thing I hate and have hated for years now on the magic

01:43:36   keyboards that Apple sells and ships with regular IMAX is I think the white keycaps

01:43:41   are ugly and I don't see why they're white.

01:43:43   I think that in the same way that every single Mac whatever color Mac or not Mac but MacBook

01:43:49   right whether you get space gray or regular gray or the rose gold

01:43:54   or gold or whatever colors are available in macbooks

01:43:57   at the current moment the key caps are always black

01:44:00   so why are the key caps white on the magic keyboard i think the black key

01:44:04   caps clearly look better yeah i agree i don't like that i don't

01:44:10   like the numeric keypad i when i got my iMac pro i actually

01:44:13   uh sold for like cost to some to a friend

01:44:16   that keyboard because it's like it's a numeric keypad, it's too wide, I don't even want it anymore,

01:44:21   and you know, but I didn't profit on the color difference. But I agree, I think the black keys

01:44:28   are nice, that's the keyboard I'm using, you know, now is a, I mean, it's a mechanical keyboard.

01:44:32   Uh-oh, I touched the third rail there, didn't I? But it's nice and it's, you know, dark keys and

01:44:37   it's nice. - Ignore, ignore, must ignore. - Must soldier on with the, you know, something I wanted

01:44:43   to mention that we haven't mentioned yet is that you know you and I are frequently in

01:44:47   the reviews program for products and we don't have Mac pros.

01:44:52   And there's a really good reason for this and it is one of the things that informs when

01:44:57   I write about like you don't want you don't actually want or need a Mac Pro is Apple is

01:45:04   Apple is very careful these days with high-end products like this because they know that

01:45:09   if they give these products to your average tech product reviewer, they're, you know,

01:45:16   unless they're very lucky and that person also happens to be a high-end video producer

01:45:20   on the side, like their perspective on it, they're like not going to get it.

01:45:24   They're not going to understand how this thing, they're not going to be able to test it realistically

01:45:29   because it's beyond their scope of what they do.

01:45:33   And I know that's true for me.

01:45:34   Like the only reason that I felt like I could review the iMac Pro was because of all the

01:45:37   audio stuff that I do that has that really can use all those cores. So they

01:45:43   don't do that. Like they don't go to the usual suspects with this and they didn't

01:45:47   with the iMac Pro. And like the only reason I reviewed the iMac Pro is that I

01:45:51   bought one and that because I wanted it that's the only reason. So it's a very

01:45:57   different like Apple knows that they need to seed this to what we saw which

01:46:01   is like youtubers because they are cranking through huge amounts of video

01:46:05   all the time and other video and high-end photography kind of people and

01:46:09   so it's an unusual product roll out it's not the usual suspects for this for I

01:46:14   think a good reason a fair reason which is like I thought about asking them like

01:46:18   doing my usual kind of pitch of like I know you know you're gonna do something

01:46:22   different but I wouldn't want to be considered or whatever and I was like

01:46:25   you know it's a reach even for me with my audio stuff it's like it's kind of

01:46:29   out of my range here and so what would I judge it on I could I could do some

01:46:33   artificial tests but like not sure that that really qualifies as being like I'm

01:46:39   not a good reviewer for this product because it's so high-end yeah I feel the

01:46:42   exact same way I if they had offered it to me I think I would have turned them

01:46:45   down because I think it would be more hassle yeah and it to set it up and then

01:46:50   eventually send it back to them and I don't know what I would do I honestly

01:46:55   feel ill-equipped I feel like someone you know like if I'm somebody who writes

01:46:59   You know like Consumer Reports style

01:47:01   You know

01:47:04   reviewing the hunt this year's Honda Accord and you know, there's a

01:47:08   Lexus sedan and here's the new Subaru

01:47:12   Outback hatchback thing

01:47:14   But I don't know how to drive at a racetrack, how am I gonna review a new

01:47:19   Lamborghini like not that I wouldn't enjoy taking it for a spin and not that I wouldn't enjoy, you know playing with the Mac Pro

01:47:27   I don't I just feel like perfect

01:47:29   personally ill-equipped to write a review because I don't do anything that really would

01:47:33   let it shine, you know?

01:47:34   Yeah, I mean I could denoise a four-hour long D&D session from somebody in a noisy space

01:47:40   with isotope and it would be really fast and then I would say, "Okay, there we are."

01:47:45   That would be about all I could do.

01:47:46   I don't even edit my own podcast though, so I couldn't even do that.

01:47:49   I mean like I said, I've been using Xcode unusually for me in the last two weeks, but

01:47:55   But even there, it's like I'm already seeing, you know, fast enough results just using the

01:47:59   16-inch MacBook Pro.

01:48:01   It's not using a Mac Pro isn't going to help me with my little project there.

01:48:08   Who has... are any reviews out?

01:48:10   I don't even know.

01:48:11   I've been so busy today with a few things.

01:48:14   It looks like a staggered rollout too, because like the videos that I've seen from YouTubers

01:48:18   tend to be kind of like unboxing and first impressions.

01:48:23   There have been a couple of blog posts that I've seen that are kind of like first impressions.

01:48:27   So it may actually be that they've got an embargo to like say you've got the product

01:48:32   and give your first impressions but not a full review.

01:48:35   I don't know that for a fact but that may be the case of like you know not yet because

01:48:40   I know MKBHD sort of promised a full review video but his first video is not that.

01:48:45   It's a much shorter kind of like here's what I've been thinking but it's like not the in-depth

01:48:51   kind of thing.

01:48:52   There's it seems like it's a staged rollout.

01:48:53   It's a very different kind of kind of product rollout for sure.

01:48:56   Yeah.

01:48:56   And my guess is, you know, in some ways, Apple repeats itself or the patterns are

01:49:01   pretty obvious, but if you think back to the month ago, 16 inch Mac book pro show

01:49:07   in New York and the demos that we saw is my, you know, it's not just going to be

01:49:12   all video producers and YouTubers.

01:49:14   It's going to be an equal number of the use cases that they see.

01:49:20   And we had those demo stations where we trade around and went

01:49:23   from station to station. And here's what it means for

01:49:25   developers. And I remember when the iMac Pro came out a couple

01:49:29   years ago, they had the guy who was like an aerospace engineer,

01:49:32   you know, and doing these real complicated analysis of like

01:49:38   wing design and stuff like that, which, as you might imagine, you

01:49:41   know, computationally extremely expensive. But just finding

01:49:45   people like that people in in truly pressing the limits of but

01:49:49   but from various fields, visual effects, people, independent filmmaker and YouTuber types, developers.

01:49:57   Composers, they've had that amazing kind of demo where, and this is, I've heard from a couple of people who are professional musicians and scoring kind of people that like,

01:50:06   it literally is the case now where they have multiple Macs that are working in Harmony because Logic can't control that many software instruments of like an orchestra.

01:50:15   And so you've got multiple Macs wired together, and you have to update things in the different

01:50:21   versions of logic and all of that.

01:50:23   And the Mac Pro just runs it.

01:50:25   With all of the instruments, it just runs it.

01:50:27   And that's a great...

01:50:28   When they found that out, I'm sure they glommed onto that.

01:50:30   It's like, "Look, this is an application that used to take five Mac Pros all running in

01:50:36   synchrony to do this thing, and now one Mac Pro does it."

01:50:39   It's like, that's a great demo for scoring.

01:50:41   Yeah.

01:50:42   think it plays into you know, Apple did exactly what they said

01:50:45   they were going to do 980 some days ago and talk to actual pros

01:50:49   about their needs. And they had that ready to go. Remember,

01:50:51   they're in the hands on area at WWDC. The day you know, the day

01:50:55   these these the Mac Pro was announced, they had a whole room

01:50:58   dedicated to a, I forget which movie it was from, but a true

01:51:05   major Hollywood movie, and they had the actual score from it all

01:51:09   running on one machine. And I forget how many machines they

01:51:11   said it had to run on when they actually were doing the work. It was like four, I don't

01:51:15   know, like four machines hooked up, or maybe more, I don't know. But that having it all

01:51:20   in one machine simplified the workflow tremendously. And just as the user, you just scroll through

01:51:28   and just see all these tracks and there they all are. And instead of having to go over

01:51:32   to this other machine to do the horns, the horns are already there. There they are.

01:51:37   Yeah, it's a good demo.

01:51:39   I know why they did it in June and they did it again last month, is that it's a really

01:51:42   good demo and a really good example of how what's possible on one of these computers

01:51:47   is so much better than what the reality is today.

01:51:54   Apple's really good at this.

01:51:55   We haven't even mentioned the whole group inside Apple, which I know came up 980 days

01:52:01   ago as well.

01:52:03   They have this whole Pro Workflows group now, and this product, as well as the MacBook Pro

01:52:08   16-inch, are the first products to really be created in partnership with that Pro Workflows

01:52:18   group.

01:52:19   And those are people who professionally do the things that these computers are supposed

01:52:25   to solve.

01:52:26   And that's, you know, it's really interesting.

01:52:28   not they're not theorizing about like well what would a music pro or a film

01:52:33   pro want like the film pro and the music pro are in the same it's not even like

01:52:38   available somewhere off campus like they're across the hall they're in the

01:52:42   same room like with the people who are working on the pro hardware and and

01:52:47   that's why I think that you know they know very well what parts of the market

01:52:51   of various markets they're hitting with this product yeah hidden miss miscellaneous

01:52:58   items now. There's no webcam on the Pro Display XDR. And friend of the show, Mark Gurman,

01:53:05   pointed that out today and wondered why it hadn't been mentioned, had been mentioned,

01:53:09   actually right in the keynote, I believe. And the interesting answer on that, which I hadn't

01:53:16   thought of, but then as soon as I was told, actually was like, "Oh, of course." So you

01:53:22   think your answer well pros don't need a webcam built in or if you're spending

01:53:28   all this money you'll buy an external one no the answer is actually that they

01:53:32   went and talked to actual pros and they said please don't put a webcam on this

01:53:36   because if you do I won't be able to use it and they're like why and there

01:53:39   because it for security reasons cameras aren't allowed in the rooms where

01:53:43   they're editing these films or doing the VFX or something like that because it's

01:53:48   there's there's that's how tight security is like when you're doing the

01:53:51   visual effects for just you know, Star Wars or something

01:53:54   like right. Yeah. And you could say, Well, wait, the webcam

01:53:58   points away from the display. So you how could you know,

01:54:00   photograph the display with the webcam when it's in there, but

01:54:03   who knows if there's a display across from the display if

01:54:05   you're working back to back with somebody. So the key, you know,

01:54:08   those rooms when they say no cameras, they mean no cameras,

01:54:11   right? Which is a fun they are they do there is a partner. And

01:54:17   I don't know if it's Logitech or somebody else. But Apple said

01:54:19   Like a partner is making one that's gonna be color matched and everything. Yeah, I think it is like, yeah

01:54:24   I think it's a lot

01:54:24   So if you want one you can buy one and add it and it magnetically clips on and stuff like that

01:54:28   But it doesn't come with one. Yeah, probably we'll have a much better resolution than most of Apple's front facing cameras under max

01:54:35   Here's a question I had so what are the missing max now that the Mac Pro is out and the one that first one that

01:54:43   pops into my mind I mentioned this a few shows ago, but with a

01:54:46   15 inch or 16 inch whatever you want to call it, but bigger than 13 inch non pro MacBook

01:54:53   There was some guy on Twitter who I don't know if I have the link or not

01:54:57   But somebody was mentioning in a thread on this pricing or he had a client who wants to switch from the Mac

01:55:01   from the PC to the Mac and

01:55:05   wants a 15 inch laptop and he said well they start at

01:55:08   $2,400 and that the guy just laughed because he doesn't want a $2,400 laptop and again

01:55:14   You know as a starting price for max $9.99 is pretty high in the PC world as the cheapest laptop you can buy

01:55:21   This isn't really about that

01:55:25   $2,400 as the starting price is to some people with typical needs of just email web browsing that sort of thing

01:55:32   $2,400 is is way too much for a laptop

01:55:35   Yeah

01:55:36   But a 15 inch display is something that lots and lots and lots of people could enjoy

01:55:41   Because you know it puts more on screen and if you're very just completely happy and satisfied toting around a 15-inch instead of 13-inch

01:55:49   Laptop, you know the PC world has options for you

01:55:54   There are high-end 15 inch 16 inch laptops and there are low-end 15 inch laptops for people who?

01:56:01   want a lower end

01:56:04   Lower cost laptop, but still want a 15 inch screen to me

01:56:08   That's a missing Mac, and I don't think we're ever gonna get it

01:56:11   I think I think if we were going to that would have come out years ago

01:56:15   But I think it's sort of a shame yeah, I think that it's worth saying that the consumer laptop thing

01:56:24   That Apple's been doing like Apple was in a bind for a bunch of years where?

01:56:29   They had the MacBook and they thought that was gonna replace the MacBook Air

01:56:33   But it didn't and they had a 13 inch MacBook Pro that was kind of not a MacBook Pro

01:56:38   but kind of was and that didn't either and finally those are gone and the there

01:56:45   is the MacBook Air retina and it feels like they've at least now got an answer

01:56:51   for what's your consumer Mac laptop now I would say from there there's a good

01:56:56   question to ask which is is that single laptop the only consumer Mac laptop

01:57:02   answer or is that the place from which they can kind of grow and find their way

01:57:07   And whether that means something bigger something smaller a little bit of both, but I I gotta think that

01:57:15   Apple's

01:57:16   Customer base is large enough that they could afford to make more than a single consumer laptop, right?

01:57:23   I I do too. I really would because it's and I think it's by far and away the best-selling thing, you know

01:57:29   and I know that

01:57:31   My family has three of those new retina MacBook Airs

01:57:35   So we have my son has one, my wife has one, my daughter has one. It's like they're just,

01:57:40   they're good. Even with the keyboards, which we have an issue and presumably that'll be replaced,

01:57:45   but they're good, but it's a starting point. And I feel like that was good to have a square one,

01:57:51   like, okay, at least we've got something people can buy now. But could they go to,

01:57:56   you know, that's a 13. Could they do a 15 version of the Air? I think they could if they thought

01:58:02   that it would sell and that it would be a complementary piece.

01:58:06   Yeah, I don't know. I think it would sell. Whether it would sell enough to really make

01:58:10   it worthwhile for Apple, I don't know. Maybe they've...

01:58:12   Always the question, right, is it's not just would 100 people buy it. It really is like,

01:58:17   is it enough to divert Apple's product designers to build a totally different SKU,

01:58:24   and would it not just be cannibalizing existing sales that would go to other products? And

01:58:29   That's the hard part of it, but I do have to think that they probably got space in the consumer laptop world for more than one computer.

01:58:36   All right, let me take a break here. Thank our third and final sponsor of the show.

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02:00:27   what you love growing your business. Let me just add if you do buy a MacBook Pro the day

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02:00:41   My thanks to Clearbank for sponsoring the show.

02:00:49   So I don't have anything left on the Mac Pro or the the Pro display XDR.

02:00:54   I think we're done.

02:00:57   I wanted to talk to you about was to me a fascinating Ming Chi Kuo report that came

02:01:03   out last week.

02:01:04   9 to 5 Mac I guess had it first.

02:01:09   And you talked about it on the episode of Upgrade, Fine Show, one of my very favorites

02:01:14   to be honest.

02:01:15   I'm not just saying that because you're here with Mike Hurley, which just came out yesterday,

02:01:21   episode 275, the title Remove All of the Holes, which tells you which.

02:01:31   So I don't want to cover all of it again.

02:01:32   I just want people should go listen to, I don't want you to repeat.

02:01:36   I'm not gonna splice in your segment from from upgrade. It's very fine

02:01:40   But I think you guys left you left some stuff on the table here for me because you guys focused on this

02:01:45   2021 rumor from Ming Chi Kuo right that they're gonna do an iPhone with no port and we could talk about it briefly

02:01:51   But you had your whole segment and the title of your episode obviously comes from that

02:01:55   But they're the 2020 rumors to me are fascinating

02:02:01   So right now

02:02:04   Apple's

02:02:05   Current lineup of current year phones the the and this has been true since the iPhone 10

02:02:10   Then the 10s introduced the pro max

02:02:14   Where you've got the OLED displays at five point eight inches as the smaller

02:02:20   I won't call it small and six point five inches as the large one

02:02:25   and

02:02:27   then they've come out with the what was

02:02:32   Last year the 10 are but now just called the iPhone 11 an LCD screen

02:02:37   Right between the two at six point one inches diagonal

02:02:42   all these phones share a common design language with the rounded corners and a notch at the top for the

02:02:48   Sensor array for face ID and because they have face ID

02:02:52   They don't need touch ID and because they don't need touch ID and they go edge to edge

02:02:55   they got rid of the home buttons and they have

02:02:58   Really, there's a line in the sand where the iPhone 10

02:03:02   Was sort of like the real iPhone 2.0

02:03:06   Where they were kind of redesigned the fundamental way that you interact with the device

02:03:12   The 1.0 which was great and is still great and still popular

02:03:17   Is you tap an app and it opens the app and then you tap the home button?

02:03:24   click the home button and you go back to the home screen and you can tap another app and

02:03:29   The new one you it's all these swipe gestures

02:03:32   My mom has an iPhone 6 and she has a

02:03:37   weird battery issue where

02:03:40   Her phone I needed to restore it. I won't waste a lot of time on this upgrade

02:03:45   But her battery was running down within hours. It was like a full food go from 100% to

02:03:50   0 in like 3 or 4 hours and

02:03:53   It was all attributed to mail running in the background

02:03:56   Like when you check in in the system preferences in the battery section and it says who's doing stuff and mail is running in the background

02:04:03   And I couldn't I couldn't figure out what why I emptied her inbox and put it all in the archive

02:04:09   I don't know what was going on, but she didn't have anything on her phone. Anyway, really she had almost no apps. So like a

02:04:15   Restore and not restoring from backup just restoring her iCloud credentials

02:04:21   Pretty much got her everything she had if not, if not it literally everything

02:04:25   I did that and it stopped draining the battery like that. And also the battery health was

02:04:30   88 percent which isn't bad for a couple of year old iPhone 6 certainly not worth getting it replaced yet

02:04:37   But the weird thing is now that I've restored it the battery does last for days in idle

02:04:44   like on standby

02:04:47   But it runs down from a hundred to one percent if you put the battery meter up in the thing within about 12 hours

02:04:54   So it goes from 100% to 1% and there were a couple of times where I thought well damn this I'm gonna take I have

02:05:01   To take this to the store and either get her either

02:05:03   Convince her to just buy a new phone now that this is older or at least get the battery replaced in this

02:05:08   But then I stopped resetting it when it got to 1%

02:05:11   I was like how come I keep luckily finding this when it gets to 1% how this is weird

02:05:16   I just have it on the kitchen counter and every couple of hours I take a peek at it and see where the batteries at

02:05:20   How come I keep catching it at 1% that seems unlikely and it turns out I let it go

02:05:26   It went for four days at 1% now, of course, it obviously wasn't going for four days at 1%

02:05:31   It's like somehow it's it's it's lost its ability to accurately gauge

02:05:35   How long the battery lasts?

02:05:38   Right. So anyway that story aside so I don't have a solution to that. So if anybody has a solution you can tell me

02:05:45   But anyway, I've spent a lot of time using an iPhone 6 in the last few weeks because of this and I can't it's gotten to

02:05:52   The point where I cannot I just can't get used to it. I can't get used to getting control center to pull down. I

02:05:57   keep swiping up even though there's a home button like

02:06:01   for the first couple leave for the first while after I switched to an iPhone 10 I

02:06:07   Could I could go back to a touch button a home screen button one and you know

02:06:14   Within a minute or two. I'd be like, okay. I remember how this works

02:06:17   You double click the button and now you're multitasking now. I can't like I can't even use it

02:06:21   It's like I'm using the mouse with the wrong hand or something like that

02:06:24   But all of these phones are in this new era it is a 2.0 era of the basic paradigm of how the iPhone system works

02:06:34   right, so

02:06:36   There's an iPhone which

02:06:40   Ming Chi Kuo has been calling the SE to supposedly coming out early next year

02:06:44   which if it follows the original SE it would be like March or maybe early April and it's

02:06:50   Has a home button supposedly, you know and with touch ID and it looks just like an iPhone 8

02:06:58   And there's a rumor I think that the Mac site Japanese Mac site Mac Oh Takara

02:07:07   Says they heard it from an unquote informed source that Apple will be calling it the iPhone 9

02:07:12   I

02:07:14   Don't think that's a crazy idea. I think for a lot of people like my mom

02:07:18   I think that could be the perfect phone because I don't she doesn't want to upgrade to a new paradigm

02:07:24   And again, I don't think it would take I don't think it's a bad idea

02:07:26   I don't think it's unusable by typical people but people like my mom don't want anything new like that

02:07:33   They don't want to change. They're just they fear it. They fear they're like fear the unfilmed familiarity and it's a turn-off

02:07:40   Yeah, that's the beauty of the

02:07:45   Se concept right is like we're gonna take that old phone that you like and if that's what you like

02:07:50   We'll just put some new stuff in it

02:07:52   But it still looks like the old one and now the se as we think of it

02:07:56   Which is like the iPhone 5 like it's so old at this point that that's not really plausible

02:08:00   but that you could now the throwback is to the

02:08:04   Six seven eight air right which was really unchanged for four years, right?

02:08:10   Six seven six six s seven eight was four generations with the same form factor

02:08:16   You know with right plus and non plus sizes. I presume that this new SE is not going to have a plus variant

02:08:22   That'll just be the smaller variant. Yeah, I'd imagine and that's what what the quo rumor is

02:08:28   Yeah, I think that this years long it's been at least a year this idea of an se2 coming out in early 2020

02:08:34   Has really confused a lot of people about just what an SE phone

02:08:38   iPhone is whether they call it the se2 or use some kind of name like that

02:08:42   Because we know people who are enthusiasts who really really think about these things and care about like, ooh

02:08:50   I really really love my phone who really love that small four inch iPhone 5 5 s

02:08:57   SE size

02:08:59   yeah, and really really wanted the SE to to keep that alive and

02:09:03   There I think they've all come to grips even before it's come out

02:09:08   I would just based on the rumors that that isn't gonna happen because that's not what an SE phone is whether you want to call

02:09:13   These SE phones or whatever. It's exactly what you just said where it's

02:09:16   The it's really like the phone from two or three years ago that a lot of people still like whatever that phone was

02:09:25   Yeah, yeah, and that's the it's the challenge there is that those are two different things

02:09:30   Which is I like a small phone and I just like it the way I like the old one

02:09:34   can we keep that around a little bit longer and

02:09:36   I think it's clear based on these reports that I like a small phone is not what's happening here. It's can we keep the past?

02:09:44   generation of

02:09:46   Shape and design alive a little bit longer at a low price for the people who want that product

02:09:53   And the interesting thing with the SE a couple years ago was that whatever you I forget whatever year whatever year it came out

02:10:00   It came out with the top of the line a series CPU from five or six months earlier

02:10:05   And me saying a series they're triggered Siri

02:10:11   Of course my device, of course

02:10:13   And that's the rumor with this

02:10:16   You know iPhone 9 iPhone SE 2 whatever you want to call it that it's going to have the

02:10:22   the what are we up to now the a a 1313 I think yeah yeah so basically it's gonna be an iPhone

02:10:31   11 it'll be an iPhone 11 except in an iPhone 8 form factor and maybe touch ID and so well

02:10:39   certainly with a lesser camera because it's only gonna have one camera lens right that

02:10:46   me is what these SE phones are is keeping that alive. So Ming Chi closed 2020 rumors.

02:10:56   And here's the thing Ming Chi quo is not always perfect. But where he's seemingly really,

02:11:01   really accurate is displays. And it just seems as I've said this before, I'll say it again,

02:11:07   it seems to me like, I'm sure he has sources outside the display industry, but he's got

02:11:11   really good, really good sources in the display industry, because he's been right about this

02:11:16   displays. I can't remember the last time he was wrong about displays. 5.4 new phones for

02:11:27   2020. Not counting se phones, we're talking about I believe these are all phones that

02:11:33   would come out in at the September iPhone event. 5.4 inches with two cameras on the

02:11:40   the back. So that's smaller than and these are all OLED by the way, no, no LCD, all OLED.

02:11:47   So I believe they would that means they would all be 10 class phones meaning no home button,

02:11:53   flip up from the bottom, pull down from the right for control center, etc. Face ID, Face

02:11:58   ID 5.4 that would be a new smaller than ever version of this class of phone, but only two

02:12:09   cameras on the back. So probably almost certainly a lower price somewhat price price something

02:12:14   like the what we now call the iPhone 11 to 6.1 inch OLED displays one of them with two

02:12:27   cameras. So I believe very clearly that is the successor to what we now call the iPhone

02:12:33   11, same size 6.1 inches, but with an OLED instead of LCD, and a two camera system on

02:12:38   the back, then another 6.1 inch phone with the triple lens camera set up on the back

02:12:46   as well as something called a time of flight 3d sensing technology.

02:12:50   That's, let's just call it depth advanced depth sensor on the back.

02:12:55   Sure.

02:12:56   And then a 6.7 inch with the same triple lens camera setup.

02:13:01   So if all of this is true, I think it's very clear.

02:13:04   Here's what I think the 2020 if quo is right.

02:13:07   This is fascinating to me that the 2020 displays, we are the 2020 iPhones would be two of the

02:13:18   10 are regular old non pro 11 class phones, the one that we've had since the 10 are and

02:13:27   now the 11 at 6.1 inches but upgraded to OLED on the front and a new smaller one

02:13:34   at 5.4 inches right but unfortunately for those of us who have kind of bemoaned

02:13:43   even the increase in size to 5.8 inches it seems like the successor to the pro

02:13:48   phones the two pro phones are going to increase in size by a third of an inch

02:13:53   to 6.1 and then go from 6.5 to 6.7 for the max.

02:14:00   Right, so the idea here is that the one that I use, and you may use this too, the 6.1,

02:14:08   right, or the, no, the 5.8, which is the iPhone X.

02:14:13   The iPhone X, not max, just iPhone X size, which is already bigger than the iPhone 8,

02:14:22   gonna they're not gonna make that one anymore they're gonna make it the size

02:14:27   that we think of now is the iPhone 11 or the 10r size right and that is gonna be

02:14:31   the small one and then Pro Max one is gonna get even bigger because I which

02:14:38   makes sense to me because people who want the big phone probably always want

02:14:41   it to be an even bigger phone and then in exchange for that the 11 which is

02:14:47   currently available only in that one size is gonna get a little buddy yeah

02:14:51   who is actually probably in the ballpark or maybe slightly larger than that kind of classic iPhone 6,

02:15:00   7, 8 size. But a 10 class. Yeah, right. Corner to corner, round corner display, OLED,

02:15:07   two camera system on the back, which I presume will be the same. I think it has proven to be

02:15:13   the right decision and is extremely popular to have the second lens be the ultra wide angle

02:15:18   instead of telephoto. That's it's, you know, it all makes

02:15:24   sense. It's not fascinating in the sense of why in the world

02:15:27   would they do that? Except for the fact that, God damn it, I

02:15:31   wish that the best pro one was not bigger.

02:15:33   Right? Well, I think this is if this is their strategy. I think

02:15:37   that is the question I've got about how they market this stuff.

02:15:40   Because I get if you're shopping based on, I want the cutting

02:15:45   Edge features, so I want the iPhone Pro, then you know, and you like a smaller phone, you're

02:15:50   going to get the 6.1 inch and it's going to be bigger than the phone you've got now.

02:15:54   But if your number one thing is like, I want the smaller phone and you can save money and

02:16:01   you still get two cameras, then this is my question because I'm that person.

02:16:06   I look at this and I think, I'm just going to get the iPhone, you know, 12 base model

02:16:10   next year rather than the Pro.

02:16:12   And if it's different, if it's like, yeah, it's easier to hold in my hand and it isn't

02:16:16   getting bigger in size, maybe, I don't know.

02:16:20   It's an interesting question.

02:16:21   Yeah.

02:16:22   I also, it occurs to me and I actually broke out a ruler and it's stupid because you can't

02:16:26   really measure the stuff for the ruler, but I broke out a ruler and I started thinking

02:16:30   like what if the pro ones have more of an edge to edge display, like less of a black

02:16:38   bezel between where the display is like in the same way that the iPhone 10 are and 11

02:16:45   LCDs have more of a bezel than the OLED ones.

02:16:50   What if on these pro ones the the bezel goes even closer to the edge almost like almost

02:16:57   or even does wrap around a little bit like some a lot of Android phones do.

02:17:05   Right.

02:17:06   Maybe the actual physical size of the device is,

02:17:10   I want to say isn't larger at all,

02:17:13   but I found it hard with a ruler

02:17:15   to find a third of an inch diagonally,

02:17:17   but you can kind of come close.

02:17:20   You kind of get maybe a quarter of an inch, right?

02:17:22   There's sort of an eight,

02:17:23   about maybe about an eighth of an inch.

02:17:24   I'm looking at it now of bezel around here.

02:17:27   - The 11 is not a, I mean, it's bigger than I'm used to,

02:17:33   but it's not a terrible size.

02:17:35   It's it's you know, but for people who already think the phone is too large.

02:17:39   This actually might be a really nice thing saying no, we're going to have a

02:17:41   mainline one that's 5.4 like that's going to be a relief for all those people

02:17:45   who never liked having to use a larger phone,

02:17:48   even if it's not as small as the five was right. I all I'm

02:17:52   saying is I think it's possible by expanding into the bezels and then

02:17:56   and then it would visually separate the two right then there's so if there's an

02:18:01   iPhone 12 and an iPhone 12 Pro, and they're both 6.1 inch

02:18:06   displays. The pro could be visually more impressive by

02:18:11   having this display that expands even further to the corners of

02:18:15   the devices and is actually a slightly physically smaller

02:18:18   device that is maybe only slightly bigger than the 5.8

02:18:22   please please please let that be.

02:18:26   Please let that be true.

02:18:27   But I, you know, and it is, you know,

02:18:31   and why would Apple do that?

02:18:32   Well, you know, there are some people

02:18:35   who really like that aesthetic and at least, you know,

02:18:38   and as long as it does a good job

02:18:40   of not recognizing hand gestures

02:18:42   when you don't want them and stuff like that, you know,

02:18:45   but in the realm of people who look at all phones,

02:18:49   as opposed to only judging iPhones

02:18:51   and sort of ignoring the Android world,

02:18:52   the fact that the, you know, even the 11 Pro and Pro Max have

02:18:58   in the premium Android world, large bezels. It's a fact. So

02:19:04   I'm optimistic that just you can't go by the corner to corner

02:19:09   screen dimensions to judge the increase in physical device

02:19:13   different dimensions, is what I'm saying. Sure, I can see

02:19:17   that. But maybe I'm just saying that to myself, because that's

02:19:19   what I want.

02:19:21   Well, let's so the the and just for reference here the Samsung Galaxy Note 10+ is a 6.8.

02:19:30   So if you're talking about like what's the competition in terms of the big screen phone

02:19:37   by going to six point from 6.5 to 6.7 they are pushing the Pro Max up to you know Samsung Galaxy

02:19:46   kind of size, which on the Galaxy Note, the large one. And that's, you know, there's a market,

02:19:52   there's a market. There are people for whom a phone can never be too big. And that's not me,

02:19:58   but I know some people like that. And, you know, Apple, I think it's smart to chase those people

02:20:03   because they want the big phone. Yeah. And, you know, the Note is a good device to look at for

02:20:10   what a more edge to edge wrap around the side a bit display could look like. Right.

02:20:16   So, you know, that that anyway, that's my hope. Anyway, I had a bit of, as we call it

02:20:25   in the industry, although I don't usually use it. Follow out. And oh, with you and with

02:20:32   you and Mike on up on the hereto on the priorly mentioned upgrade 275 was was on the the scheduling

02:20:45   And the idea that is Ming Chi Kuo seems to suggest that Apple has plans for future first half of the year new iPhones. I

02:20:52   Think Mike Mike seemed to interpret that as separating like the 11 and the 11 Pro

02:20:58   Right doing the 11 style phones earlier in the year and the pro ones in September

02:21:06   And I think if you think about it, it's that's not it at all. I think it is about

02:21:11   regularizing these SE phones

02:21:15   to have

02:21:17   And if you really think about if you think about the September new phones which have been the case for many many years now

02:21:24   They're effectively the

02:21:28   2020 model year phones right like all the enthusiasts jump and buy them

02:21:33   immediately in the fourth quarter of the calendar year

02:21:37   Right. I pre-ordered mine that on day one sure but most of them

02:21:42   These are the phones that are going to be on sale as the top of the line iPhone from January

02:21:48   until September 11th or 12th or 13th or whatever, whenever they held the event.

02:21:56   So for most of the 2020 calendar year, these are the premier phones.

02:22:00   So I think that this schedule, this SE schedule, for lack of a better word, is about getting

02:22:10   a lower tier but still top of the line chipset in the market at a lower price but not wasting

02:22:19   time at September with even more phones right and they've already seemed to be expanding to four

02:22:25   phones at the top end right so who wants five in that group and one of them is old and lessened

02:22:33   well and he has that rumor which i actually think is a really interesting rumor which is the idea

02:22:37   that in 2021 they're going to do another SE style phone, but what they're going to do is they're

02:22:42   going to take the home button out and put touch ID on like one of the side buttons. Yeah, which

02:22:52   is that's also kind of wacky, but an interesting idea. And, you know, it's not something I would

02:22:58   have come up with, but I think it's an interesting idea. I think you're right. I think it would be

02:23:02   be awfully hard to separate the like the 11 and the 11 Pro because you'd be you

02:23:09   know using an older chip generation in one of them presumably the lower end one

02:23:13   which means it's even more of an afterthought and I don't think that's

02:23:17   the message they want to sell it didn't you know but but there's room for more

02:23:21   iPhone rollout I think what we're seeing here like if this described thing

02:23:25   happens Apple is going to say we have five different iPhones and we'll roll

02:23:29   the big ones out in the fall, and then there'll be some other ones, you know, or

02:23:33   at least one other one that's going to come out later, and you don't need to

02:23:36   worry about it too much, but we're going to do that too. And I think this is where

02:23:40   we are now, is there used to be an iPhone, and the iPhones keep growing because

02:23:43   Apple realizes that they, you know, different people want different things

02:23:48   out of the iPhone these days, and that's a one way to sell more iPhones, is to

02:23:52   give people these choices so that they can find one that they actually want to

02:23:56   upgrade to. Right, and it's, you know, it's their most popular, most important

02:23:59   important financially most used product.

02:24:01   - Yeah.

02:24:02   - And yet it's the one that until very recently

02:24:06   had had the fewest options.

02:24:07   I mean, 'cause honestly even, I mean, I don't wanna,

02:24:10   I've just never been a fan of the plus sized ones.

02:24:12   I like the max size one even better.

02:24:14   There was something about the dimensions of the plus one

02:24:16   that really never sat well with me personally,

02:24:18   but even then it still was just two sizes of the same thing.

02:24:23   And yes, the plus ones had slightly better cameras

02:24:26   Yes, I still won't stop complaining about that as someone who wouldn't buy a plus but wanted the best camera

02:24:32   But it wasn't nearly as much variety as we have even just today

02:24:38   before this 2020 rumor of what might be coming but the

02:24:42   starting last year with the 10r and

02:24:45   the

02:24:47   10s and 10s max was a much wider variety of options for hey, I want a new

02:24:54   Excellent top-of-the-line chipset excellent camera, you know

02:24:59   iPhone way more variety there in terms of well, I would be delighted to

02:25:05   Spend $300 less and have this excellent LCD screen with slightly larger bezels, you know here

02:25:13   I'm looking at it in the store side by side. Yeah, I'll just take this one

02:25:15   Right. That's a great option. Yeah, and yes, they raise the prices to get the OLED ones to the prices that they're at now

02:25:22   now.

02:25:25   But I think it makes way more sense.

02:25:27   And if they even as we said that there's, you know, we could always find phones that

02:25:31   that we wish they were in a dream world that they'd still make one with a four inch diagonal

02:25:35   screen for people who really do want a tiny little iPhone.

02:25:40   But this sounds like a much like a much more robust lineup.

02:25:43   And as we were talking earlier about Mac books, I really feel like there's a market for all

02:25:47   of these phones if they come out as rumored.

02:25:50   I think so.

02:25:51   I think so.

02:25:52   number of people sheer number of people who buy iPhones right like you don't have to have

02:25:58   a huge slice of the market for it to be a huge number of people and if the net result

02:26:03   is you sell more iPhones that's what they want right like if they're not going to make

02:26:07   an iPhone that literally is going to do nothing but take sales away from the two iPhones that

02:26:11   are bracketing it like right why would you even do that unless unless it's pulling a

02:26:16   lot of people up from a cheaper model and you're making more profit but I think they're

02:26:22   doing what, you know, it's the opposite of what Samsung did, which is just throw a whole

02:26:26   bunch of phone models out there and see which one sold.

02:26:28   And then they learned from it.

02:26:29   With Apple, it's sort of starting very focused on like a product that they try to sell to

02:26:34   everybody and realizing now that they can't do that anymore.

02:26:37   So if we have five brand new iPhones in 2020, you know, bring it on.

02:26:41   I think that's good.

02:26:42   And I think it's good for Apple at this point in its lifespan.

02:26:45   All right.

02:26:46   Now, let me complain about the woes of me.

02:26:51   How the fuck am I going to review four iPhones?

02:26:56   You know, it was nice two years ago when the, when the XR came out before the XS, right?

02:27:03   So there was like two different embargos.

02:27:04   Oh, it was fantastic.

02:27:06   And plenty of time between them, plenty of time between them.

02:27:09   Oh, please let these come out staggered.

02:27:12   Please let them come out staggered.

02:27:14   Oh God.

02:27:16   This I think to myself, isn't it fun that I get to run this website all by myself?

02:27:21   I can take credit for every word that's ever been written on it

02:27:23   And then three iPhones come out at once

02:27:28   Yeah, I think the good news is it looks like the plan here is that it's it's you know

02:27:31   What they're really doing is varying the screen size and then they've got two models two models with different screen sizes

02:27:36   So it's not really four phones. It's two phones, which it already is. So yeah, we're already there

02:27:41   Yeah

02:27:41   So my technique if this happens as we're scheduled we did the same thing I did this year where I sort of skipped

02:27:46   The pro aren't Pro Max and just did the regular 11 and 11 Pro comparison and pick the sizes. I most wanted

02:27:54   Last but not least the heat Ming Chi Kuo has a 2021 rumor that the high-end presumably Pro iPhones

02:28:03   Will drop the lightning port and not not for USB C, which I'm not surprised by

02:28:08   but instead have no port whatsoever now you and Mike devoted a huge segment of

02:28:14   Upgrade to this and I really I thought it was excellent. And so I don't want to rehash the whole thing

02:28:18   We don't have to go into detail and you and I have already gone a little bit longer than than most podcasts do here

02:28:23   But I still think we can't let this go without I cannot publish a podcast

02:28:27   After this report came out and not talk about the rumor of iPhones with no port

02:28:31   Here's my I've said this before I'll repeat myself very quickly. I've never expected

02:28:36   iPhones to go to USB C and I know that once the iPad pros did

02:28:41   It certainly became more plausible and it became a maybe

02:28:44   but

02:28:46   Apple's explanation for why iPad pros got USB C from lightning is that they are?

02:28:53   geared as replacements or alternatives to PCs right and PCs need USB

02:28:59   iPhones that and again

02:29:03   When in doubt take Apple at their word that description does not apply in any sense to iPhones

02:29:10   And iPhones don't need the extra high charging they probably for thermal reasons. Maybe wouldn't use it even if they could

02:29:17   Like you as far as I know maybe I'm wrong if I'm wrong somebody I guess will let me know on Twitter

02:29:24   Let me know on Twitter. Don't email me

02:29:26   It's really a lot better for me, but I don't think that

02:29:30   Android phones with USB C ports can take advantage of say a 45 watt charger. I just don't think that works

02:29:37   I don't think it's feasible. But if it is, well, I guess that would be a theory. But we'll get back

02:29:43   to that in a second when we talk about removing ports and altogether, I just don't think it makes

02:29:47   any sense. And I think that the proprietariness of lightning and the avoiding the controversy,

02:29:52   the inevitable huge backlash from the normal person community, who would object to and

02:30:00   immediately deem a money grab a port change, even if the port changes to the industry standard from

02:30:07   from a proprietary one. You know, like my my sister and brother in law were not angry

02:30:16   but asked me like they were upset because they what they do is they upgrade every other

02:30:21   year. So my sister gets a new iPhone one year, and then the next year, her husband does and

02:30:25   then the next year she does and they go like that. Well, in the year when it was time for

02:30:29   somebody to upgrade to the first one with lightning, all of a sudden, their one charger

02:30:33   in the kitchen couldn't charge both, you know, and they were upset by that. People would

02:30:38   see it the same way. But anyway, so I never thought USB C was in play. I've been saying

02:30:41   for a while now that it'll be lightning until they go to no ports at all. I would not have

02:30:48   pegged 2021 is when they went to no ports at all.

02:30:53   It's Yeah, I mean, I would love to express massive skepticism about a report like this,

02:30:59   we've got the model right which is the headphone jack like all of my feelings

02:31:04   about this are the same feelings I had when there was the report that they were

02:31:07   going to get rid of the headphone jack and that was that's that's preposterous

02:31:11   think of all the reasons that you can't do that and you know but they did it

02:31:18   like they did it and they put a dongle in the box and they made it work and I

02:31:22   can come up with a big list of things about why this doesn't make any sense

02:31:25   sense like carplay and surviving a complete crash where you need to reset the firmware

02:31:32   and charging on an external battery pack or in a car or on an airplane.

02:31:37   Waterproofing or did you mention that?

02:31:40   Yeah, well waterproofing is like a reason why they could do it, right?

02:31:43   Like there's like...

02:31:44   But the question is...

02:31:45   That's part of the question is why?

02:31:46   Why do it?

02:31:47   Why?

02:31:48   Right.

02:31:49   And the why for removing the headphone port, there's a couple that I, you know, I think

02:31:50   they're pretty obvious.

02:31:51   one they gave was about, you know, neat, needing or at least wanting that space underneath

02:31:56   the display. Because the head traditional headphone jack really does go a long way in

02:32:01   compared to any modern digital port, which I think is legit. And I don't think it means

02:32:06   they couldn't do it. Right. And that's the thing. It's not that they couldn't do a headphone

02:32:12   jack and still have these displays. But I think it would make it much more difficult

02:32:16   and it might compromise them in some way.

02:32:18   And the way that the current OLED ones curve under

02:32:23   at the top and bottom really might prevent it

02:32:26   unless they put the headphone jack on the side

02:32:28   or something like that, which is weird.

02:32:30   But I think ultimately it was really is a vision that,

02:32:34   hey, the future is wireless headphones

02:32:37   and it's so much better that we want to help push it there

02:32:41   by getting rid of the headphone jack.

02:32:43   And Apple's done this in the past

02:32:46   Where you know, it's sometimes more successfully sometimes less successfully

02:32:50   Like I think that the hey the only ports on macbooks are going to be usbc hasn't worked out

02:32:56   It hasn't been a disaster

02:32:57   But it hasn't worked out as well as I think apple would have anticipated when they first came out with a usbc only macbook

02:33:03   um

02:33:05   but like

02:33:06   abandoning traditional ports and going into us with the usb

02:33:09   original usb

02:33:11   With the iMac turned out great and I think it helped usher in the USB era. I think dropping the headphone jack on

02:33:19   iPhones and including headphones that do still work with it via lightning

02:33:25   Because the air pods are too expensive to include in the package

02:33:31   It has helped I think usher in the air pods era

02:33:35   I think it has helped and you can say well

02:33:38   They just wanted to sell AirPods, but I think AirPods make people happy so it made like win-win

02:33:43   It's like win-win for Apple. They sell $160 hunt to $200 AirPods or I guess up to $249 now

02:33:50   But I people love their AirPods right so they've ushered in a better era. What's the better era that gets rushed?

02:33:57   Ushered in by removing the charging jack. I don't get it

02:34:02   I yeah, that's that's I mean I get I get the argument that you're saving space on the inside

02:34:07   I get the argument that engineering wise not having to have a port that sticks out a very particular location

02:34:12   Gives you a lot more flexibility on the inside. But yeah, what headphones do you put in the box?

02:34:16   Yeah, there's no lightning jack there has way

02:34:20   There has to be a story to sell and I don't think we know it yet, you know

02:34:23   And it must involve some sort of wireless charging technology or contact charging technology

02:34:30   Yeah with the smart connector type

02:34:32   That's the best thing that I can come up with is what if they went to a smart connector style thing except that could handle

02:34:38   way more power and and probably transfer way more data and also probably have some kind of a

02:34:43   Dongle II kind of thing that you that is either wireless or that you attach via that thing that

02:34:49   Because like carplay is a great example where you're you basically can't come out with an iPhone

02:34:54   That doesn't work with more than half of the carplay cars that are out there

02:34:58   Because carplay even the wireless car pay has been around for a while almost nobody has wireless carplay

02:35:03   Right right and all of a sudden you it's a new car

02:35:07   You buy a new iPhone and it's a huge downgrade where you go from carplay to no carplay and and charging speed is another one

02:35:15   Yeah, okay huge. Okay. Why there are no Chi charging battery cases right is it's slow and it's inefficient

02:35:21   It's just a bad idea

02:35:22   so Apple would have to either

02:35:24   There's a new Qi that we don't know about or that is coming or Apple would have to reinvent

02:35:28   Like they could do a mag safety kind of thing if they wanted to I don't know

02:35:33   It's it is that for me I get hung up there are solutions here, but I get up hung up on the why like why?

02:35:39   What is the benefit to the user in eliminating this port and I am having a hard time seeing it other than I mean?

02:35:46   Waterproofing would be nice right to finally say because like if you drop your phone in the ocean today

02:35:50   and it dies even though it's got all that water and dust resistance in it

02:35:54   it's your fault and Apple won't fix it unless you pay them it's not

02:35:58   warrantied even though the water-resistant water damage is not

02:36:01   covered and like it would be great if the iPhone covered water damage and like

02:36:05   no it's not going to fail we promise and if getting rid of this port did that

02:36:09   then I could sort of see that but even so that's quite a cost just to get

02:36:14   waterproofing to be better. And it's true that there's an example of an iOS

02:36:18   device with no ports it's the Apple watch and it you know comes with its own custom charger and

02:36:24   it latches on the back but part of the reason it can latch on the back is that the back has

02:36:28   like this big round feeling line right now it's not flat yeah it's got a big round sensor blob on

02:36:34   it and also by the way like I don't ever run betas on Apple watch in the summertime because if they

02:36:40   if it dies like you can't do a reset because there's no port on it is that going to happen

02:36:47   to the iPhone too. It's weird. It's just, again, I would brush it off if it weren't for the fact

02:36:53   that we just went through this and maybe this is going to happen again, but it hasn't come into

02:36:58   focus yet about like, if this is true, why is it true? And I don't know. I don't know why.

02:37:04   There's, it's gotta be a story that we don't know, you know? Right. That's to me, the more intriguing

02:37:09   thing. And I do believe there will be, I believe, you know, what's the over-under without the

02:37:16   Mingchi quo rumor I would have said the rumor it get rid of the lightning port for no port at all it may be like

02:37:22   2025

02:37:24   Sure, you know give it five more years and we'd have wireless charging that could

02:37:30   Compete with you know current high-speed quote-unquote high-speed charging for phones

02:37:34   But you can't go from current high-speed charging for phones and say the fastest you get is Chi

02:37:40   Like you know, I just had one yet just this week

02:37:43   It happens maybe once a month as I put my phone on the nightstand key charger wrong and it doesn't light up

02:37:48   And I've it's been so long since I've done that that I'm not paying attention and I've got the sound off

02:37:54   So I don't hear anything like I don't hear the lack of

02:37:57   You know

02:37:59   Verification that it's on and I wake I woke up in the morning and my phone was almost dead

02:38:03   Now I didn't have to go anywhere because I work at home

02:38:06   but if I had to go somewhere I would want to be able to charge that up to like 50% very quickly like

02:38:11   She I would didn't put it on the Qi charger when I realized what happened

02:38:15   I took it down to the kitchen and put it on an 18 watt charger

02:38:18   I still have a lightning charger next to my Qi chargers and you know often it's for other devices

02:38:23   But like sometimes it's the oh, no my phones at 10%

02:38:26   Well, I guess it didn't stay on the Qi charger last night

02:38:29   And I really need to top it up before I go and you'd lose

02:38:32   You can't lose that right and not to mention like I said people who live on like that Apple came out with a battery case

02:38:38   Well, I don't do

02:38:40   You know Qi charging battery cases because you lose a lot of the power. It's really inefficient, and it's super slow

02:38:45   So maybe Apple has invented something new that that's the that's part of the what is the story here?

02:38:51   And that's why when I when I mentioned and and you mentioned like something kind of like the smart connector from different

02:38:57   It's like okay. Well what if Apple said you know there's a better way when you do need an accessory

02:39:01   Which is we made up we made a thing that's a magnetically attached

02:39:06   Contact thing. It's not a port per se

02:39:08   most people are never gonna use it but it's there for this adapter and for carplay and for for a battery case to use and

02:39:16   We've designed a battery case that uses it like I could I could maybe see that but that better be really great

02:39:21   Right because they're gonna need to drive adoption of that very quickly

02:39:24   and but then the other thing that that runs into is the fact that most people the overwhelming majority people want a case on their

02:39:30   phones and

02:39:31   They don't want you know, like Apple Apple's own cases now leave the bottom

02:39:35   lip open, they round the corner but leave that whole area from speaker to speaker

02:39:40   and the light port open. But a lot of people don't want that. They don't want a

02:39:44   case like that because they really they feel secure when there's a lip all the

02:39:48   way around. I mean I guess if they came out with a phone without that that

02:39:52   needed the bottom to be open to magnetically connect, you know, they would

02:39:56   just have to suck it up. But it would also seem to rule out the entire

02:40:01   category of truly protective cases. You know, the sort of, yeah, you can actually throw this.

02:40:07   Unless you have like a smart connector where, I don't know, do all the cases have their own like

02:40:12   metal pass through something like it's, it all starts like, I can believe that it could happen,

02:40:18   but when I start thinking about the details, it all starts to unravel and it comes kind of back

02:40:22   to like, why are we going through this? What are we, what's the benefit of going through this?

02:40:27   Yeah, what's the benefit? I don't get it, you know, I do get the waterproofing thing, but I just don't think it's as important

02:40:32   You know and you know as a watch nerd

02:40:34   I know the history with watches were long long time

02:40:37   There was no such thing as a waterproof watch and then with wristwatches came out and you know

02:40:42   People would just forget they had their watch on and like jump in the pool or something and shit

02:40:46   You've just just ruined your watch right, you know, and now I've never

02:40:51   I'm thinking in the back of my head. Yeah, I think it's true

02:40:54   I've never owned a watch that isn't waterproof and I've been wearing a watch since I was like 13 years old

02:40:58   Yeah, actually, I guess I had a Superman watch when I was seven years old that that wasn't

02:41:02   Wasn't waterproof. So let me let me put an asterisk there, which I wish I wish to God

02:41:09   I still own because wouldn't that be adorable?

02:41:11   But you know from 13 on buying Casio digital watches, I've never owned one

02:41:18   It isn't waterproof

02:41:18   But I just don't think that's as important for the phone or at least not so important as to get rid of the port

02:41:23   And it can be solved for those who need it if it's a relatively small group by putting by making it more water-resistant

02:41:29   So that even though it's not covered and this is what they've done if you drop it in the toilet

02:41:33   There's a good chance. It won't be dead now where you know five years ago. That wasn't true

02:41:38   It was gonna be dead right away. There's a pretty good chance

02:41:40   It won't be dead and that if you need absolute guaranteed

02:41:43   I want to take this snorkeling in Hawaii you get and they're available on Amazon

02:41:47   And they're pretty cheap you get a waterproof case and then you use it in the waterproof case

02:41:50   and it's okay and that sort of solves the problem without forcing every single

02:41:55   owner of this product to go through a transition and again this makes me feel

02:41:59   very confident it won't happen except I felt this way about the headphone jack

02:42:03   so yeah and speaking of the headphone jack this would also mean that they have

02:42:07   to put air pods in the box with the iPhone um yeah unless there was some

02:42:10   other weird magnetic something or other or they made a cheap air pod or I don't

02:42:15   know what like they just said if you don't already own air pods guess what

02:42:18   You're spending another hundred and some dollars. I mean, it's not

02:42:21   you know in presuming if this debuts only at the pro and we're talking about thousand dollar plus phones and

02:42:29   assuming that by 2021 the

02:42:33   Current lower end current hundred and fifty nine dollar air pods are actually a lot cheaper for Apple to make it's maybe not

02:42:40   Preposterous to think they'd include them in the box

02:42:44   But then on the other hand, it feels ridiculous that for those of us who already own iPod I you know

02:42:49   Air pods that I don't want I always felt a little wasteful getting all the extra wired

02:42:56   Earbuds that I didn't use but this that seems extra use use for this. Yeah. Yeah, I can't see them doing it

02:43:03   And let's not forget

02:43:05   They also would need to put a charging solution of some kind in the box

02:43:08   And again, right she charged she charger in the box doesn't seem right

02:43:12   But you know, maybe they could make a cheap one or do they have an alternative charging mechanism?

02:43:16   And what is that? And like, it's not unsolvable, but like complicated problems to solve. Which

02:43:24   brings me back to why are we doing all of this again? And I still don't know.

02:43:29   It's a fascinating rumor. And, you know, sometimes people latch on to stories, and I don't know why.

02:43:36   But I can see why this one exploded on Twitter with shirt.

02:43:40   people get mad. People are like mad at Apple about it. And it's like, we don't know Apple's doing

02:43:43   this. Like, I think it's a good intellectual exercise because maybe they are. And it's nice

02:43:47   to ask like, okay, if they are, why and what would that mean? And all of that. But like,

02:43:52   we're talking about September 2021 here and it's one report. So for all we know, this is a

02:43:58   different product or it's just a test or it's something that was misunderstood and this isn't

02:44:04   going to happen. You know, or, or it's true like the headphone jack. We just don't know.

02:44:09   All right Jason thank you. I thank you. I thank all of our sponsors. Let me see how I can do it off

02:44:15   top my head. No notes. I'm not looking. You have to trust me. I got my eyes closed. Express VPN.

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02:44:36   to their career site and last but not least now I'm drawing a blank with a C

02:44:43   not with a K it's with a C nope drawn a blank no I have to get my notes what's

02:44:50   my something something Bank Clear Bank oh my god Clear Bank where you can go to

02:44:54   raise ten thousand to ten million dollars into 20 minutes with the term

02:44:57   sheet Clear Bank I should have known it with the C because it ends with the C

02:45:02   and that's an unusual nature of it well my thanks to them Jason everybody I told

02:45:06   I'm telling you right now, you want to listen to upgrade 275 because there's really a lot more in there

02:45:11   You're honestly a lot more on the jack

02:45:13   Yeah

02:45:16   Also six colors and you can spell colors any way you want that pretty much

02:45:22   Yeah, and it's a like daring fireball

02:45:25   Hosted by movable type its software from the last decade almost two decades ago now

02:45:31   But still doing its job. Oh doing a great job

02:45:35   job. And everywhere at six colors, you can find Jason's

02:45:39   writing elsewhere, including his Mac world column this week,

02:45:43   where he made people angry by telling them they don't want a

02:45:46   Mac. Or they don't need a Mac.

02:45:48   Yeah, they can want it. One is fine. Just you don't need it.

02:45:51   Just admit to yourself that you want it more than you need it.

02:45:54   Oh, man. All right. My thanks to you. Thank you, Jason. Thank you,