The Talk Show

263: ‘The Dumbest Thing Possible’ With Dan Frommer


00:00:00   Dan Fromer, I think it's been a while

00:00:01   since you've been on the show.

00:00:02   - It has, thanks for having me back, always fun.

00:00:05   - We got an Apple event coming up next week.

00:00:09   We're recording on Friday, the 6th of September.

00:00:12   Tuesday is the event out in California.

00:00:16   We can talk about that, obviously.

00:00:20   We've got other stuff to talk about.

00:00:21   Why don't we just start though, by talking about you, Dan.

00:00:25   - Oh sure, all right, let's do it.

00:00:26   - You've bounced around, you've left.

00:00:28   You were at Recode for a while.

00:00:30   You were editor-in-chief.

00:00:31   What were you at at Recode?

00:00:32   - Yeah, editor-in-chief for about two and a half years

00:00:36   until end of last year, late last year.

00:00:39   - Now you're on your own again, which makes me happy.

00:00:43   Makes me feel like I'm less alone.

00:00:45   (laughing)

00:00:46   - Yeah, I've always admired and yearned

00:00:51   for the indie publisher lifestyle.

00:00:53   And those who've heard me on this show before

00:00:57   may remember, what was it, eight years ago,

00:01:01   I started an indie site called Splat F,

00:01:04   which was covering Apple and the greater Apple ecosystem.

00:01:08   But that was during the era of banner ads

00:01:13   and it proved not to be a great business model

00:01:17   for a small indie publication,

00:01:21   even one with a really high-end audience.

00:01:23   And so I had some really amazing job opportunities

00:01:28   that I ended up taking for basically six years.

00:01:32   And in the meantime, the subscription model

00:01:38   has really taken off.

00:01:39   I give all credit to, I think, I'm pretty sure

00:01:43   in all industries, not just tech, but Ben Thompson

00:01:46   is really the one with Stratechery who was just

00:01:49   kind of getting started as I was kind of shutting down Splat F.

00:01:54   But this model of charging people $100 or $200 or $300

00:01:59   a year for access to, in theory, a newsletter, but also

00:02:04   a website, and probably much more, has really taken off,

00:02:09   especially for things that are professionally oriented,

00:02:14   that people can expense to their business,

00:02:18   or at least right off their taxes.

00:02:20   And so I started one.

00:02:22   I left Recode end of last year

00:02:25   and beginning of this year started something

00:02:28   called The New Consumer,

00:02:29   which you can find out at newconsumer.com.

00:02:32   It takes my almost 15 years as a journalist

00:02:38   covering technology and applies those lessons

00:02:42   to kind of the field that I'm most interested in personally,

00:02:44   which is consumer.

00:02:47   It's a golden era of e-commerce, a golden era of consumer.

00:02:50   You see all these new direct-to-consumer brands launching.

00:02:53   You see big companies like Amazon taking over the world.

00:02:56   You see really interesting new brands,

00:03:01   many of which sponsor podcasts like this one.

00:03:03   - Very true.

00:03:05   - Yeah, it's very true.

00:03:07   Yeah, and many of them have been enabled by technology

00:03:10   in a way that earlier brands have not,

00:03:12   whether that is literally selling

00:03:14   a technology-based product or service or using technology and digital marketing as the way

00:03:22   that they attract their customers and even using technology culture to iterate on their

00:03:32   product.

00:03:33   Anyway, I launched the new consumer in March actually at the Apple event where I think

00:03:39   I sat next to you at the Apple services event and have been doing it since then. It's been

00:03:46   going great. It is designed for professionals. It's $200 a year, which gets you two emails

00:03:54   a week from me. The model is very similar to…

00:03:58   How much is it again?

00:04:01   It's $200 a year. For now, I only offer an annual membership. Part of that was to

00:04:09   get that money up front to almost as a Kickstarter for my business.

00:04:13   But, uh, you know, I, I am,

00:04:15   I'm an ambitious person and I see it over time as being much more than just a

00:04:19   newsletter, um, you know, and,

00:04:21   and a membership at a community that I really want people who are focused on

00:04:25   the big picture in the longterm to be a part of. So I might, um, you know,

00:04:31   Ben, Ben and many others, it's funny,

00:04:33   I subscribed to probably four or five of these now. Um, you know,

00:04:36   I'm sure many of the listeners to this show know about

00:04:39   Above Avalon from Neil Seibart,

00:04:41   which is a really great Apple kind of financial--

00:04:44   - Investor focused.

00:04:45   - Yeah, investor focused financial analysis of Apple

00:04:48   and also the tech world through the lens of Apple.

00:04:51   But there's a great one that I get by Jon Ostrower

00:04:55   covering the aviation industry.

00:04:57   There's a bunch of them.

00:05:00   I guess the athletic is kind of,

00:05:03   the athletic is like a consumer version of this, right?

00:05:05   covering sports, it's less expensive.

00:05:08   Few people are expensing the athletic.

00:05:10   I am because I write about the media industry,

00:05:13   but most people are not expensing the athletic.

00:05:15   And of course the model is do some free articles

00:05:19   here and there.

00:05:20   I would love to get to the pace of doing one free article

00:05:24   a week in addition to the two paid ones

00:05:27   and try to do something that no one else is doing.

00:05:30   So it's not, I'm not writing straight news articles.

00:05:35   I'm doing analysis, I'm doing commentary,

00:05:38   I'm following up.

00:05:41   So it's so interesting how you can just follow up

00:05:44   on something and be the only person

00:05:46   who's following up on something.

00:05:48   Companies make these big announcements all the time

00:05:50   and a lot of them don't really work out

00:05:53   or work out differently than people imagine.

00:05:55   So I try to focus on the why and the how.

00:05:59   And it's a lot about e-commerce.

00:06:02   The tag is kind of a publication about how and why people spend their time and money.

00:06:11   Almost six months in, it's great.

00:06:12   I love it.

00:06:13   I'm sticking with it.

00:06:15   The caliber of the membership is really fantastic.

00:06:18   I really believe in the model.

00:06:21   And it's perfect for someone like me who really wants to control all aspects of the

00:06:27   publication and the business.

00:06:28   I designed the WordPress template myself.

00:06:31   I made the logo, I love doing all that sort of stuff.

00:06:34   I wish I had--

00:06:35   - You're a man after my own heart.

00:06:37   - Yeah, I mean, I wish I had more time to make the charts

00:06:42   and do all that stuff, but part of it is just

00:06:44   the craziness of, and really the opportunity to do all of it

00:06:48   and I love this model, I love seeing people jump into it

00:06:53   and it's been really great so far.

00:06:55   - We are of a, like when we look back on it,

00:07:01   It's like, all right, me, I have an interesting,

00:07:05   I've carved out an interesting career,

00:07:07   but I have not bounced around.

00:07:10   Somehow I made it work

00:07:13   and then I just keep doing the same thing.

00:07:15   But I'm keenly tuned in to what's going on

00:07:21   with solo practitioners, for lack of a better word,

00:07:25   like you and Ben and Jason Kottke.

00:07:29   But also, just the whole media landscape,

00:07:33   like the people who you and I would consider peers,

00:07:37   roughly of our rough generation,

00:07:40   like what a crazy period to be in the media, right?

00:07:45   Like it's so different

00:07:48   from just when Daring Fireball started in 2002.

00:07:51   And some of the new sites,

00:07:52   places like Recode and The Verge

00:07:57   and all of the various Vox properties.

00:08:00   Like I love them and I spend an awful lot of time.

00:08:03   I mean, anybody who reads "Daring Fireball"

00:08:05   knows how often I wind up linking to Recode

00:08:08   and Buzzfeed News and Vox.

00:08:10   And these are all pop publications that I don't think

00:08:13   any of the ones I just mentioned were around 10 years ago.

00:08:16   Maybe "The Verge," I forget when that happened.

00:08:18   But, and they're great.

00:08:22   And you know, and I know so many people,

00:08:27   and it's no quite, it's just the way careers go, but someone like John Patzkowski, who's one of the

00:08:31   great Apple beat writers, has been at both Buzzfeed News and at Recode, was previously at the, I think

00:08:39   he was at the Wall Street Journal, right? He was there with the…

00:08:41   Trenton Larkin He was part of All Things D,

00:08:43   which became Recode. So Recode in some ways is young, but also in some ways is almost 13 years

00:08:49   old. But it's just an interesting time. But there was a period there where I wouldn't say I was

00:08:56   depressed. But there was a period where the solo practitioners really seemed to be drying

00:09:04   up. And I really thought that, like when I made Daring Fireball work, I thought, "This

00:09:09   is the future and there's going to be so many people doing this." And then I just happened

00:09:14   to have a leg up by a few years because in 2002, you still needed to be a bit of a web

00:09:22   developer to run your own website. And it was great that there were things like

00:09:26   movable type. But even just installing movable type was beyond the ken of somebody who didn't

00:09:33   have some kind of web development background. And then, I don't know, at some point it

00:09:38   seemed like it dried up, and now it really seems like it's back on the upswing. And

00:09:42   it's fascinating to me that it's not really through blogs. It's, like you just said,

00:09:48   largely or significantly through subscription newsletters. I hate to say it—I hope he

00:09:57   doesn't listen because he's on the show all the time—but Ben Thompson has done an

00:10:01   amazing job. And truly, I marvel at his output. He's a machine in terms of getting his daily

00:10:11   updates out and getting his free to the public to read, call him out every Tuesday. I think

00:10:18   Tuesdays is when his free one drops. I mean, week after week after week.

00:10:23   Trenton Larkin Yeah. Like scary consistency.

00:10:27   And it's always good too. It's, you know, it's obviously jealousy inducing, but also an inspiration.

00:10:35   And, um, you know, and, and by the way, not everyone can keep that pace up or even,

00:10:40   you know, my pace, um, you know, you see a lot of people starting newsletters and,

00:10:45   you know, even my free newsletter points party, which we're talking about that

00:10:49   later, but like, I haven't kept up with that nearly as much as I want to.

00:10:53   Um, but.

00:10:54   This model where you are, where your customers are literally, you know, the

00:11:00   people you're writing for and there's a direct two way relationship.

00:11:04   Um, I think it's great.

00:11:05   It really keeps me going.

00:11:07   I long to be as consistent as Ben.

00:11:11   And if I'm still doing this,

00:11:12   and I think he's been doing Stratechery now

00:11:15   for five or six years, and many of those full-time,

00:11:18   I would be so happy to be doing this in six or 10 years.

00:11:23   To me, it's amazing.

00:11:26   So huge credit to him, but also to you,

00:11:30   and everyone else who's doing this.

00:11:32   - The other thing that it plays into is,

00:11:34   And there was a talk that Merlin Mann and I, like a,

00:11:37   I don't know, God, it must have been like 2006 or 2007

00:11:42   at South by Southwest.

00:11:44   People still watch it all the time.

00:11:45   I think it's evergreen content,

00:11:47   but we're just talking about it and it's--

00:11:50   - I think I was there live.

00:11:51   - You might've been.

00:11:52   I think you might've been.

00:11:54   But then it was Merlin's point more than mine,

00:11:57   but it was more or less just finding your passion

00:12:02   and pursuing it.

00:12:04   I don't know, I'll find it for the show notes,

00:12:07   but it's always exciting and interesting

00:12:11   and very obvious to me when somebody is writing

00:12:14   about what they're passionate about.

00:12:17   Where, you know, like the worst is like going back to school

00:12:22   and like I, you know, I've turned out to be a quote unquote

00:12:28   professional writer and people seem to be a fan

00:12:30   of my writing, and sometimes I feel like I'm actually doing it pretty well. But I think

00:12:36   if you went back and read a lot of my stuff in high school that I handed in as assignments,

00:12:39   it was dreadfully dull because I was bored out of my mind. That's the worst. And sometimes

00:12:45   even when you're reading a newspaper or something, you can just kind of tell that

00:12:49   whoever wrote this, it's homework to them. And I think the opposite when you can find

00:12:55   writing about something that if money were no object, if they were independently wealthy,

00:13:02   they'd still want to be writing about blank. And as the reader, that passion,

00:13:08   it's just this symbiotic relationship where you want to read more from this person and the person

00:13:15   writing it wants to keep writing it because they've got this obsession. I think the way

00:13:20   Merlin put it was obsession times voice.

00:13:22   That's great. Yeah, exactly. To your earlier point, I think newsletters make it easy for

00:13:29   two reasons. One is it's very easy to set up a paywall for a newsletter that works.

00:13:36   You sign up once and you just get the email. Yes, there's a website that you can log into

00:13:43   and Memberful, the service that I use and that Ben uses and Jason Snell uses and Kottke

00:13:51   uses, it actually does a pretty good job at keeping you logged in.

00:13:54   However, guess what?

00:13:57   Everybody still reads their email and if your goal is to be essential to someone's professional

00:14:02   life, you better be in their email.

00:14:08   Of course, there will be a point where people are getting too much email and too many newsletters

00:14:11   and I've probably unsubscribed from a few,

00:14:15   even from people I like.

00:14:16   But right now it's working

00:14:18   and I love seeing Substack and other services

00:14:23   get investment and become popular.

00:14:27   To me it's a really interesting,

00:14:28   really great time as you say.

00:14:31   - Yeah, and Snell's,

00:14:33   I don't think Kottke charges for his newsletter,

00:14:35   but like the Six Colors model that Jason Snell has carved out

00:14:38   is sort of a hybrid model where there's a, you know, just a traditional blog with sponsors

00:14:45   and, you know, content daily and links and original articles. And, uh, but also a members,

00:14:54   members only program that gets you something like a exclusive to the members paying members

00:15:00   weekly newsletter, you know, and that hybrid model. I, I've always, I probably don't try

00:15:05   enough things. As I teeter towards old age, I was more successful in the early days of

00:15:12   Daring Fireball when I would just try stuff. I tried the membership thing way back when

00:15:18   I first went full-time with Daring Fireball in 2006. I figured there had to be something—I

00:15:24   don't want to repeat myself because I've spoken about this before—but my idea wasn't

00:15:28   to have original exclusive content. It was that what I call link list entries, which

00:15:39   is funny because it's like 90% of what I do now during fireball like that. That was the

00:15:43   new thing. Like for the first two years, all I had were the full articles, like the columns,

00:15:47   two or three a week. And then I thought, well, there's always a couple of little things I'd

00:15:51   like to link to, but I don't want to write a full article about it. And then I thought,

00:15:54   Well, what I could do is I could charge people members and they'd get an exclusive RSS feed

00:16:05   that would have the links as I posted them. And 24 hours after I posted each one, it would

00:16:11   go up on the website for everybody to see free of charge. So if you wanted to follow

00:16:15   what I linked to as I wrote it, you'd have to have the RSS feed. That didn't really work

00:16:21   out and then I switched to, I thought, just for technical reasons, basically because Google

00:16:26   Reader didn't work with subscription only RSS feeds or private RSS feeds. That's when

00:16:32   I came up with the idea for sponsorship for the RSS feed, which is basically how I feed

00:16:37   my family for the last—how I fed my family for the last 13 years.

00:16:42   But anyway, I think that's great. I talked about it last week on my show with Brent Simmons,

00:16:48   I think that the resurgence of newsletters, it goes hand in hand with a bit of the resurgence

00:16:54   of interest in RSS readers. Because I think that there's just a, a pleasure in the reading

00:17:05   experience where if I sign up for the new consumer, when a new issue comes into my email

00:17:12   box, I see it, I know exactly what it's going to be. And when I click on it or tap on it,

00:17:17   depending on what device I am.

00:17:19   There it is.

00:17:20   And it is nicely, it looks nice.

00:17:22   It is ready for me to read and I can start scrolling.

00:17:24   And there's nothing, no pop-ups come up telling me

00:17:28   that there's a fricking cookie policy

00:17:30   and I've got to say it, I'm okay with this.

00:17:33   There's no pop-up that comes up covering the content,

00:17:36   telling me I have to log in again,

00:17:38   like the goddamn Wall Street Journal,

00:17:40   which I pay a fortune for, right?

00:17:42   Like it makes it, reading stuff on the web that's paid

00:17:45   It's so annoying. It really is.

00:17:49   There's a Wall Street Journal in particular.

00:17:51   I mean, I don't know what the hell kind of cookie system

00:17:55   they have, but I get logged out of the Wall Street Journal

00:17:58   all the time and I pay, it's like probably one of my most,

00:18:01   if not the most expensive subscription I have.

00:18:04   It's ridiculous.

00:18:05   Like you wouldn't put up with it in the real world.

00:18:08   Like imagine if you paid, you know, whatever, you know,

00:18:11   a couple hundred bucks a year,

00:18:13   which is I think what I pay for the Wall Street Journal

00:18:14   to be like a member of a club. And every time you show up at

00:18:19   the every other time you show up at the club, they're like, Who

00:18:21   are you? Yeah. And you have to like, you'd be like, show them

00:18:24   your ID, you got to like sign in, you got to type a password

00:18:27   or something like that. Like you'd never tolerate it. Whereas

00:18:30   like with RSS, and RSS still isn't great for in my opinion,

00:18:34   and I don't think it ever will be forced for paywall stuff for

00:18:37   subscription for member only stuff. But that like you said,

00:18:40   that's why email and newsletters are fantastic. Right? Like, I've

00:18:44   subscribed to Stereotecory for years. I've never once had to reenter my credentials. Every time

00:18:49   Ben publishes something, there it is in my email box, ready to read. And I think that that is a big

00:18:57   part of this resurgence in, in email, the like oldest of old parts of the internet,

00:19:02   which is it's so fascinating to me, right? Like just the oldest thing on the internet that's still

00:19:11   thriving and it's like still growing. And honestly, you know, and I'm, I know I'm one of

00:19:16   the rare people. I mean, you and I are among the rare people. Like I actually really, really care

00:19:21   about the reader experience. And, you know, side note, it's driving me crazy how hard it is to,

00:19:28   I have to mess with my MailChimp template and I just haven't done it yet. But, you know, even

00:19:33   working at, and Vox media was great about this, like Rico, the verge, the sites in our, in our

00:19:39   our networks, like they also highly prioritize the reader,

00:19:43   but you read half the sites nowadays and you have to find like

00:19:48   three or four modal little tiny X's or click off these,

00:19:52   these passive aggressive email,

00:19:55   pop-up forums that are increasingly like, no,

00:19:59   I don't want free stuff from you jerk. You know, that kind of stuff.

00:20:02   It's like the X is like a 50% gray X on a,

00:20:05   on a 25% gray box. It is like,

00:20:09   (laughs)

00:20:10   I don't wanna live like that.

00:20:11   So it's great to be able to have a medium and a site

00:20:16   where there are no pop-ups,

00:20:20   there's no, you don't have to click off anything.

00:20:23   The typography is nice, it's from New Zealand.

00:20:26   I picked it out specifically for you.

00:20:29   And I don't know, to me it just feels great.

00:20:33   - There's no ads that are creeping me out,

00:20:38   just trying to sell me pants with me.

00:20:40   - Just a picture of me trying to sell you a subscription.

00:20:43   - With me knowing that I just bought two pairs of pants

00:20:46   two days ago on a website and now every goddamn site I go to

00:20:49   is trying to sell me pants.

00:20:51   It's like, I just bought pants.

00:20:52   - Yeah.

00:20:53   - Oh my God.

00:20:55   - Yeah, anyway.

00:20:56   - Anyway, newsletters.

00:20:58   - Yeah, it's been great and I'll be writing

00:21:00   about the iPhone next week, so.

00:21:02   Or I guess this week, whenever this drops, but.

00:21:06   - Well, let me take a break.

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00:23:16   What should we move on to? I guess we should cover this event before we run out of time.

00:23:23   - Yeah, nothing important, just the iPhone event.

00:23:28   - Just the biggest event of the year.

00:23:31   I don't know what the biggest event of the year.

00:23:33   For me personally, it's probably WWDC

00:23:35   'cause I'm a little bit more on the software side.

00:23:38   I do my live show, which has turned into a big deal.

00:23:42   For the greater world, clearly the September iPhone event

00:23:49   is the bigger deal because it's hardware.

00:23:51   and financially for Apple it is because that's still,

00:23:55   that's still what the company is.

00:23:57   - And also kind of historically,

00:23:59   or at least in the last decade,

00:24:00   where they've also kind of had the,

00:24:04   where they've showed off the big new stuff,

00:24:07   like the Apple Watch and--

00:24:08   - Yeah, yeah, true.

00:24:10   It's also a little interesting though,

00:24:12   because they hold it at the Steve Jobs Theater,

00:24:15   which is bigger than,

00:24:16   for years they'd hold the iPhone event

00:24:21   at weird, or not weird places, but just various,

00:24:25   they couldn't hold it on Apple's campus

00:24:27   because the old town hall is way, way too small.

00:24:30   So they would hold it at places

00:24:32   like the Bill Graham Civic Auditorium.

00:24:34   I think the last few years, that's where they had it

00:24:36   before they opened the Steve Jobs Theater.

00:24:40   They used to hold it at the Yerba Buena Theater

00:24:46   right there on the same block as Moscone,

00:24:50   which was still, that was pretty tight.

00:24:52   But even the Steve Jobs Theater,

00:24:53   I forget how many people can fit in there,

00:24:55   but it's not huge.

00:24:56   Whereas the Bill Graham Civic Auditorium was humongous.

00:25:01   And WWDC's keynote is humongous,

00:25:05   just an enormous cavernous space.

00:25:09   So it's interesting to me,

00:25:11   just at a meta level, how tight seating is

00:25:17   and how a little bit,

00:25:18   I know more people in the media who get invited, you know, can get a press invitation to the

00:25:23   WWDC than the iPhone event just be. And it's simply a factor of how many, how many butts

00:25:30   they can fit in the theater. So anyway, what are we expecting next week? That's the other

00:25:34   weird thing about the September event is that there's often not much of a surprise other

00:25:39   than details. Like, and so it's weird because I'm fascinated by the details, but it's in

00:25:47   in a large sense, the press will all,

00:25:48   it seems to always like the mainstream press will usually

00:25:52   just say, well, this is everything, you know,

00:25:55   three new iPhones, that's what we expected, no surprises.

00:25:59   - Right, and gripe about pricing and something else.

00:26:04   But I think that we can start with the iPhones.

00:26:07   I mean, it seems like we pretty much know

00:26:12   what we're gonna get, right?

00:26:15   Yeah, I think yeah, pretty much. It sounds, you know, and I think, I think it's unavoidable

00:26:21   given the leakiness of the supply chain, basically. And we've known this for my or we think we've

00:26:28   known it, let's, you know, put it whenever we speak with certainty of what we know. Let's

00:26:33   just put an asterisk that says, we're 98% sure that we're just going to get successors

00:26:38   to what we got last year. So there'll be a new phone that's like the 10 are a new phone

00:26:42   like the 10 S and a new phone like the 10 S max with the a 13 chip and that the the

00:26:48   two 10 S successors are going to have three camera systems on the back, which is the big

00:26:54   physical change instead of two cameras. So it'll be a big square back there instead of

00:26:58   a Tylenol capsule shape thing. Um, and new colors apparently supposedly maybe, uh, I've

00:27:10   I've heard, I don't know if this, I don't know.

00:27:12   I forget if this leaked or not,

00:27:13   or if I only heard this through the fence

00:27:14   that there might, that the 10 S models,

00:27:17   which I think are gonna be called Pro iPhone 11 Pro,

00:27:21   I don't know, but that the iPhone 11 Pro

00:27:23   will be offered in a new color, like a blue.

00:27:26   I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what I heard.

00:27:28   So it'd be, so it'd be the white with the silver trim,

00:27:32   the black, of course, can't not have black, gold and blue.

00:27:37   I don't know if that's true or not.

00:27:40   New 10 are also correspond to a blue watch. I wonder and we could talk about the watch

00:27:47   later because I wonder, you know, there's, you know, we'll talk about this, but that

00:27:50   there's rumors that they're going to have titanium ceramic in addition to stainless

00:27:54   steel and aluminum. And I wonder, I mean, aluminum to me would be the easiest to tint.

00:28:01   I don't know that. I don't know if I guess they could do titanium in any color they want

00:28:05   ceramic. I guess they could do and I ceramic, I guess you could do any color under the sun

00:28:08   because you're not even coating it, like you just make the ceramic in the material.

00:28:12   But anyway, let's talk about watches later. The big thing that I'm most interested in

00:28:17   is the three camera system for the pro models. And the idea is that in addition to the two lenses

00:28:25   we have now, like the regular lens and the 2X "telephoto lens," which isn't really telephoto,

00:28:31   but I get why Apple calls it telephoto because it's zoomed in at its natural resolution,

00:28:36   that there'll be the third camera that they're adding will be a wide angle lens that's significantly

00:28:43   wider than the standard lens. So there'll be the new one, you know, there's still be the default

00:28:48   one, which is what everybody, which is kind of a wide angle lens. I think it's like a 28 millimeter

00:28:53   equivalent for 35 millimeter cameras. The telephoto, which is the equivalent of a 50

00:29:00   and then a wider angle lens, which at least in terms of the rumors, nobody knows exactly how

00:29:05   wide wider angle is. I think that's interesting because I'm a camera enthusiast. The thing

00:29:13   I'm most interested though is how the, and again, this is the sort of thing that at least

00:29:20   so far hasn't leaked at all and tends not to because I think that it, the, the iOS 13

00:29:28   that go out to the public don't have the code that you know there it's a different fork within Apple

00:29:36   from the version that has the code that supports the new hardware features on new hardware right

00:29:43   so I'm most interested in what the camera team had has done software wise with that third camera

00:29:50   because there it's not just like a simple like

00:29:54   The on the phones with that we already have with the two cameras

00:29:59   it's not just well you're either using the one lens or you're using the other and

00:30:03   It just switches like like is though it was like a hardware switch between the two lenses

00:30:08   The software does some very interesting stuff, you know

00:30:14   It's like the fact that you can start a video with the 1x lens and it'll switch to the 2x lens if you zoom while you're

00:30:20   shooting and yet the video doesn't have like a skip where it looks like you've suddenly

00:30:25   flipped lenses. Um, the way that the portrait mode works and it uses the two X lens for

00:30:32   the photo but uses the one X lens to get the depth masks to help create that fake bokeh

00:30:39   effect. Like I've strongly, I have no idea. I have no insight information on it, but I

00:30:44   strongly suspect that they'll, they'll use this extra wide angle lens for similar stuff

00:30:49   to make photos better even when you're not actually shooting the photo with that lens?

00:30:53   I don't know.

00:30:55   That could be really interesting. If you look at where software has been

00:31:00   the most fun and interesting in photography, it's certainly not in the stock camera apps these days.

00:31:09   It's like the Instagram super zoom in stories and all the AR stuff that Snapchat and Instagram

00:31:16   have been doing. I always wonder how much Apple lets itself be inspired by stuff like

00:31:23   that that is more fun than practical. If there's a super zoom type effect or even just a suite

00:31:33   of special effects where it zooms in very quickly on someone switching between the different

00:31:41   cameras or something like that. That could be kind of fun. They've added some effects

00:31:47   over the years. I just wonder how wacky they will let themselves get.

00:31:52   I'm also sure there's probably things that we can't just imagine here on the fly that

00:31:57   when they show them off will be interesting and impressive. Once you've been developing

00:32:07   with multiple cameras for that long.

00:32:09   I imagine they've figured out some neat tricks

00:32:11   that could be cool.

00:32:13   - Yeah.

00:32:15   Otherwise though, I don't know, you know,

00:32:19   what else, you know, with the phones.

00:32:21   I mean, I can't wait to see it,

00:32:23   but I don't know what else to conjecture about now,

00:32:27   three days in advance.

00:32:28   - Yeah, I mean, the pro thing is kind of interesting.

00:32:31   You know, how, is this gonna be the venue

00:32:35   to kind of talk about what it means to be a pro? Or is that

00:32:38   just straight up a marketing term? And then part B of that is

00:32:43   does it is it become the only pro item without a USB C port in

00:32:47   the lineup? I think that I think that one's been busted, right?

00:32:51   It's it's probably gonna be lightning still. So,

00:32:53   yeah, that's a good question. That's actually a really good

00:32:56   question. Because I and I say it's a good question. I know

00:32:59   it's a good question. Because I actually have at least three

00:33:01   different people have asked me that on Twitter in the last 24 hours based on my daring fireball

00:33:08   article guessing that they're going to call it the iPhone 11 Pro. So I have two answers

00:33:16   to that. One is according to the rumor mill from the supply chain, they're still all lightning.

00:33:24   And that's the sort of thing that would very likely leak just because there's nothing

00:33:32   Apple can do about it, right?

00:33:33   Because the actual—I don't know how many of the phones are actually in North America

00:33:39   already, but certainly some of them already are.

00:33:41   And prototypes have certainly been in the hands of Apple employees for months now.

00:33:47   And the review units that'll start getting seeded next week, I'm guessing, are already

00:33:51   here.

00:33:52   that they would want to cut it so close that they're—but who knows? I don't know

00:33:57   how that works. But if they're not here, they're on their way here because the review

00:34:01   units typically start getting seeded to people the day of the event. It's just no way to

00:34:10   hide something like that.

00:34:12   And then my other answer would be strategically, I think there's a very big difference. There

00:34:16   There is a correlation between the current Pro devices and USB-C ports, but on the Mac,

00:34:24   it never really made sense to have a Lightning port. So USB-C is just the next generation

00:34:29   of USB. So I feel like the fact that all the Mac Pros and MacBook—well, I guess the Mac

00:34:36   Pro actually doesn't have USB-C yet because the Mac Pro is from 10 years ago the one that

00:34:42   can buy today, but like the iMac Pro does and MacBook Pro does, and surely the new Mac

00:34:47   Pro that's coming out soon will have USB-C ports. I guess we even know that. We've

00:34:53   seen it already when it was previewed at WWDC.

00:34:58   The one that makes people who want to see the iPhone get a USB-C port hopeful is the

00:35:04   iPad Pro. That's the one. So when the iPad changed from iPad to iPad Pro, the Pro has

00:35:13   USB-C instead of Lightning, and they continue to make other iPads that are just called iPad

00:35:19   Air or iPad Mini, and they still have Lightning. And so I can see there's a certain logic

00:35:26   to the notion that if Apple is going to start calling some iPhones Pro and some are not

00:35:31   that the pro ones would have USB-C and the other ones would not. So I get that. But strategically,

00:35:38   I don't think there's I don't think Apple has ever even considered switching the iPhone to USB-C.

00:35:43   No, it's a fun exercise. But I can't imagine that would happen. There's the lightning ecosystem is

00:35:49   just too big. And, and also like for the iPad Pro, I think a lot of it was for the power delivery.

00:35:58   and the fast charging of something that has a giant battery in it. Whereas even an iPhone Pro,

00:36:05   I think, is still going to have a normal-ish battery and probably even continue to have a

00:36:10   smaller battery than whatever the XR becomes. So yeah. My money's on Lightning.

00:36:19   Yeah. And it would be even if the rumor mill were silent on it, I would say Lightning. And I'm going

00:36:25   going to say so the rumor mill, it doesn't go that far ahead.

00:36:29   I honestly still believe that every iPhone

00:36:33   will have lightning from now through the end of time

00:36:39   until they don't even have a port.

00:36:42   As long as there's a port that you plug into,

00:36:45   it'll be lightning, I think.

00:36:46   All right.

00:36:47   Yeah, that makes sense.

00:36:49   I don't know.

00:36:50   I'll at least say for the next five years.

00:36:51   I don't know who knows what would happen five years from now.

00:36:53   The cool thing. Oh, people don't believe me. People don't, I say this,

00:37:00   and I know some people are so skeptical and think that every corporation,

00:37:04   no matter which one that you did,

00:37:06   that they're full of shit with everything they say. But with Apple,

00:37:10   a lot of the time you really can take them at their word and their explanation

00:37:14   when the iPad pro switched to USB-C was that these,

00:37:19   The iPad Pro is meant as an alternative

00:37:24   to a traditional laptop PC,

00:37:27   and therefore they're using, including USB-C,

00:37:31   so that you can use PC peripherals.

00:37:34   That's what they said.

00:37:36   They also mentioned specifically

00:37:38   that it supports higher, faster charging rates,

00:37:41   and it comes with a, hmm, what is that iPad charger?

00:37:45   I forget how many watts.

00:37:47   - I think it's 18.

00:37:48   It ships with an 18 watt, but it can take advantage of up to a 30 watt charger

00:37:53   To charge even faster

00:37:56   So if you spend more money or the smarter thing go to somebody like anchor and buy a third-party

00:38:02   30 watt charger

00:38:04   You could charge your iPad pro faster

00:38:06   And those things are tiny. They're amazing tiny anchors in particular are really really tiny

00:38:17   That's what they said and I think that's what they mean well

00:38:20   I don't think the iPhone will be able to take advantage of 30 watt charging. I mean, it's it would be interesting

00:38:25   I guess that's one small thing that we can conjectures is will Apple finally ship it with more than a 5 watt charger

00:38:30   Like a plaster is still shipped with 5 watt chargers and I know I know the nerds out there that and you know

00:38:39   I know a lot of you who are listening to my show are in that think that that's outrageous

00:38:43   but there really is a

00:38:46   Flip side to it which is that a lot of people like that chart the charger that they ship with iPhones because it's so small

00:38:51   And because therefore it fits anywhere. There's a plug it will fit and it fits in a

00:38:57   woman's purse

00:38:58   even if it's a very small perverse so they can carry a charger with them everywhere they go and

00:39:02   There's there really are and I've talked to people at Apple about this and I know people think it's because Tim Cook is

00:39:09   Is a tight wad and wants to squeeze an extra five dollars out of every?

00:39:15   iPhone sold by shipping a cheaper charger, but there really are millions and millions and millions

00:39:20   of iPhone users who prefer the little square five watt charger because it's because it's small and

00:39:27   they don't care if it's slower. And I know people don't. People who listen to the show don't believe

00:39:33   me, but I know that that's true. So hopefully what they'll do is ship it with a higher capacity

00:39:37   charger that's relatively small. Yeah, if they could get, you know, a faster or whatever you

00:39:43   I call it a higher capacity charge in that same exact size or keep it five whopper make it even smaller

00:39:49   I'm not sure how possible that is either but

00:39:52   I don't think it's funny. You know, I just spent four months overseas and the chargers are so big there. Yes

00:39:59   The UK ones look like some kind of like

00:40:07   There's something out of a Terry Gilliam film like it's meant to

00:40:12   - Meant to look silly.

00:40:14   - It's crazy, I mean, you can't put that in your pocket.

00:40:16   But yeah, although the ones in France were bigger,

00:40:21   but they were kind of skinny.

00:40:22   It was kind of a good shape.

00:40:24   But yeah, here's the thing.

00:40:27   The other thing is I think that,

00:40:29   and Apple probably knows this too,

00:40:30   that probably 90% of charging occurs at nighttime

00:40:35   while people are sleeping.

00:40:39   So the speed of the charge

00:40:41   is probably less important than.

00:40:42   What's obviously a bigger problem

00:40:45   is when you're almost out of battery

00:40:47   and you need a quick charge.

00:40:49   And that's where both of these things,

00:40:52   both the five watt and also the wireless charging,

00:40:55   which is increasingly common,

00:40:57   neither of those things really help with that.

00:40:58   - They don't help in that, oops, holy crap,

00:41:00   I forgot to charge my phone.

00:41:02   Or like every once in a while,

00:41:04   like I have the bedside wireless charging thing.

00:41:09   and the one I have, I forget, I think it's the Mophie.

00:41:12   You know, it's okay, the sweet spot isn't too small,

00:41:17   but it, you know, once every two months or so,

00:41:20   I'll have a night where I didn't quite hit it

00:41:23   and I'll wake up in the morning

00:41:24   and my phone didn't charge at all.

00:41:25   It would be nice, now usually with the way I live my life,

00:41:29   working here, it doesn't really matter,

00:41:30   but if I had to leave the house every day for, you know,

00:41:33   a commute or something like that, it would be nice.

00:41:36   It's nice every once in a while when you really,

00:41:38   your phone's already under 20% to charge it to at least like 80% pretty quickly. So fast

00:41:45   charging definitely has a use. And it would be nice if it came in the box.

00:41:48   Yeah, I love it with the with a 30 watt, anchor charger and then the USB C to lightning. Especially

00:41:55   if I you know, if I check into a hotel or something, I just I need to give me as much

00:41:59   charges I can get in 10 minutes before I have to leave. It's great for that. The thing that

00:42:05   I'm intrigued by is this rumor of wireless reverse charging

00:42:09   where you can theoretically charge your AirPods

00:42:13   off of the back of the new iPhone,

00:42:16   whether it's Qi or, you know, Qi plus Apple magic.

00:42:22   - Yeah, like will there be other things

00:42:24   that you can also put on the back of your phone

00:42:27   that would charge like?

00:42:28   - Could you bum a charge off someone else's phone

00:42:31   on your phone?

00:42:32   - Well, the Samsung ones that have this similar feature,

00:42:36   or at least conceptually the same feature,

00:42:38   definitely let you charge another phone

00:42:40   because they even, and they even advertise it

00:42:42   as like a, you know, like their TV ads show people like,

00:42:46   you know, this guy meets a girl in a coffee shop

00:42:49   and, you know, introduces himself by letting her

00:42:52   charge her phone on his phone.

00:42:55   - Cool.

00:42:56   - I don't think, from what I've heard,

00:42:58   I don't think Apple's is gonna do that.

00:42:59   I wouldn't be surprised if it's AirPods only.

00:43:02   And I don't think they could do the watch

00:43:04   because the watch needs like the magnetic connection.

00:43:06   Whereas the AirPods you could just put side by side.

00:43:09   But who knows, maybe they will, I don't know.

00:43:11   I mean--

00:43:12   - Well, did the watch ever get,

00:43:14   did the watch ever ship with whatever it needed

00:43:17   to charge off of the power mat?

00:43:20   Was that thing called the AirPad?

00:43:21   - AirPower.

00:43:22   - AirPower?

00:43:23   - Supposedly AirPower was just going to work

00:43:26   with all existing watches.

00:43:27   I remember when it was still a product,

00:43:30   I remember asking, and it wasn't gonna be like,

00:43:32   oh yeah, it'll only work with the new watch.

00:43:34   It supposedly would work with any watch.

00:43:36   - So maybe that would work, I don't know.

00:43:38   Although the watch, my problem is never the watch

00:43:41   running out of battery, it's only the phone, really.

00:43:44   - Yeah, same with AirPods, really.

00:43:46   I can't remember the last time I even heard the bloop, bloop,

00:43:51   that little sad sound.

00:43:52   - No, especially the new ones.

00:43:55   - Yeah, so I don't know.

00:43:56   To me, it's a neat feature, but it's not a big feature.

00:43:59   I'll tell you one thing I'm looking forward to on the new phone, supposedly. And again,

00:44:03   you know, it doesn't, it's only like words that have leaked. It's nobody seems to have

00:44:07   pictures yet. I mean, who knows? The last weekend is always, it's always dangerous recording

00:44:12   on a Friday before the event. And it's supposed, it's like, I want to get it out. So people

00:44:16   traveling and stuff like that, I could listen to it, but it's always surprising what might

00:44:20   leak on Sunday. Um, but one of the things people have said, sources have said is that

00:44:25   the glass back of the new phones might have a matte finish, at least in certain colors.

00:44:32   That would be very appealing to me. My least favorite thing about these phones over the

00:44:37   last three years, really, because I would leave it include the jet black iPhone 8 that

00:44:44   I carried for a year, is the way that you can't tell which side is which by touch. Like,

00:44:50   I think I said on a recent episode of the show, my one regret over the years of buying

00:44:54   iPhones is that I didn't get the matte black iPhone eight instead of the jet black because

00:45:00   I think I would have I think I liked the aesthetic better overall in the long term. I think I

00:45:04   was just infatuated by the glossy jet black at first the Darth Vader ish sort of finish.

00:45:11   But I just I really dislike the way that when you're and I tell you know, I I always try

00:45:17   to put the phone in my pocket the same way glass facing my thigh as opposed to the screen

00:45:22   out just in case something hits me in the thigh. Hopefully, it will crack the back,

00:45:27   not the front. But every once in a while, your phone is flipped around or it's on

00:45:33   the table or something like that. I don't know. To me, it's just generally… And

00:45:38   it also, to me, makes it more slippery. I would presume that a matte glass finish for

00:45:42   the back would literally have more texture. So I hope that's true.

00:45:51   On the lightning versus USB C front before we move on even further. The other thing that

00:45:55   I just, I cannot emphasize enough is among our crowd, people who listen to this show,

00:46:02   people who read this site, people who, people who really know, understand the difference,

00:46:06   like know what USB C is. They want USB C on the iPhone because they really are. And I

00:46:14   see it, I get it. They're enamored with the idea that they could carry fewer cables around.

00:46:20   it be neat if you could just, you could, even if you travel with an iPad and a phone and

00:46:26   a MacBook, if all you needed were USB-C cables and maybe you could just use the same charger,

00:46:32   just charge your phone overnight, then leave your iPad Pro plugged in in your hotel room

00:46:37   during the day and plug the MacBook in when you need it. That's great. I see the appeal

00:46:41   of that. That would really simplify the world in a way that you could just have it and maybe

00:46:48   you're a nerd and you carry, you try out Android phones throughout the year too. The more devices

00:46:54   you use, the more that appeals to you as a nerd. But normal people hated when Apple switched

00:47:01   from the 30 pin to lightning. They hated it. Hated it and everybody chalked it up to, or

00:47:08   not, everybody in the normal world chalked it up to Apple did this to get everybody to

00:47:13   buy the $30 lightning cables. It was a money grab. And if they switched to USB-C, even

00:47:21   though in the nerd world they would say they would praise Apple for switching to the industry

00:47:28   standard, the hundreds of millions of regular iPhone users out there who don't already have

00:47:38   lightning cables around their house and everywhere they need for their phone would see it as

00:47:42   a money grab that Apple's trying to get even though you we know you can buy USB C cables

00:47:47   from anywhere anybody. They would chop this up to you know, they would complain about

00:47:51   it. I can't tell you how many people in my family bitch to me when Apple switched to

00:47:57   lightning. And I would say don't you see how much more elegant it is that 30 pin cable

00:48:01   was gross and ugly. It was so bad. But they didn't see it that way. All they saw it was

00:48:07   that the cables they already owned and that the stands they already had or whatever didn't

00:48:11   work with their new phone and they had to throw them out or like people who like like

00:48:20   a married couple where somebody gets the new iPhone one year and the other spouse has the

00:48:26   old iPhone. Now they need two cables. People hate that. I cannot, the number of people

00:48:32   who would hate, hate a change to USB-C on a new iPhone vastly, I would say 10 times

00:48:41   outweighs the number of people who would be happy about it. And I realized that there's

00:48:47   people, nerds who are listening to me say this, and they're getting angry at me because

00:48:52   they don't believe it. But I'm telling you, in the real world, it's true.

00:48:55   Yeah, change is hard, man. Although I did pick up one of those 30-pin chords this week,

00:49:00   and I'm glad we're not using those right now.

00:49:04   It's sort of ludicrous-looking when you really think about it. It's really, they really were.

00:49:10   I mean, it was, it seemed like a breakthrough at the time, but yeah,

00:49:12   the time compared to a scuzzy pin or something like that. Right. But, but there were,

00:49:16   and they were like sharp clips in there to keep it, keep it in. Yeah.

00:49:23   Anything else on the iPhones that we expect next week? No, I just, every time the iPhone naming

00:49:29   comes up, I just, I always think back to the iPhone math and laugh my ass off. Remember that one?

00:49:34   It's like a terrible supply chain rumor that there was going to be an iPhone called the iPhone

00:49:40   math. I haven't thought about that in years. I think about all the time, I think it ended

00:49:46   up being the plus maybe or something like that. So maybe someone saw a plus sign or

00:49:50   the word plus. Maybe I never thought of that. Right. Right. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. Maybe

00:49:57   this will be the year that iPhone math. You know what? That actually is a very logical

00:50:04   explanation that they saw the plus sign and it's some kind of mistranslation from Chinese

00:50:10   to English turned it into math because it was plus.

00:50:15   Maybe. I don't know. I love it though. I want something like that again.

00:50:23   I will not devolve into politics, but there's somebody on Twitter with this thing with Trump

00:50:28   being obsessed with the, his, his statement five days ago that Alabama was in the path of the

00:50:34   hurricane. Uh, what Dorian? Yeah. Uh, and that he spent the last five days defending it and trying

00:50:41   to make up the, that's right. Somebody on Twitter conjectured that what happened was that the thing

00:50:46   that he saw said Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, and all Bahamas, all Bahamas, read it as Alabama.

00:50:56   And I think that's so possible. I think that is so possibly where this whole thing came from.

00:51:01   And that's why he's convinced that he really was told that he's really told that really was told

00:51:06   that Alabama was was in the path of the hurricane. I love it all Bahamas. Amazing.

00:51:11   Yeah, I don't have anything else on the iPhone. I'm interested. I, you know, I think mostly

00:51:19   it'll be, you know, do you, uh,

00:51:24   do you think that they'll change the upgrade program at all either to, uh,

00:51:29   include it in some of the bundles that they're doing and,

00:51:33   or make it exclusive for the, uh, Apple card?

00:51:37   Or do you think that they'll just kind of stick with it?

00:51:39   In other words, would they do some kind of like,

00:51:43   for lack of a better word, Apple prime, let's just say,

00:51:48   I don't think they would call it that because Al Amazon so owns it, but for lack of, to

00:51:52   avoid trying to think of a better name, let's just call it Apple prime. There's a whole

00:51:56   bunch of daring fireball readers and talk show listeners have emailed me. So with this

00:52:01   idea you sign up, you pay Apple, I don't know, X hundred dollars a year and you get all of

00:52:09   it. You get all of their subscription stuff, the TV plus and the, uh, the news, you get

00:52:15   Apple music, you get Apple arcade and you get into some kind of upgrade program for

00:52:22   the iPhone, you know, which and they have that already. There is the upgrade program.

00:52:26   Right. And that's what I was curious about is specifically that upgrade program. But

00:52:30   the other, the other bundle too, I mean, that's a good question as well. I wonder, I like,

00:52:36   I see the appeal of it where, and I, there's definitely, you know, in terms of people who've

00:52:40   emailed me, there's definitely people out there who are interested in it. And I know,

00:52:43   I know firsthand from friends that a lot of friends I have used the upgrade program to

00:52:48   get a new phone every year.

00:52:51   I mean there's three strategies if you want a new phone every year, which I and number

00:52:55   one you're you're an oddball if you want a new iPhone every year because normal people

00:52:59   buy them and keep them now for longer and longer terms than ever because they're still

00:53:05   so useful longer than ever.

00:53:09   But I buy one every year I do.

00:53:12   And I'm, I do the dumbest thing possible, which is I keep all of my old ones so that

00:53:17   I can just say that I have them all.

00:53:21   Which is financially ridiculously stupid.

00:53:25   The other thing that I know a lot of people do is they, if they buy a new phone every

00:53:30   year, they just buy it, pay for it upfront.

00:53:32   And then when the new one comes out, they sell the old one.

00:53:35   And typically if it's in good condition or very good condition, it still has an awful

00:53:41   lot of value like a year old iPhone 10 S probably that might've sold for around $1,000 you could

00:53:47   you might be able to sell for 600 500 $600 and so you're not paying $1,000 a year to

00:53:54   get a new iPhone top of the line you're only paying like five four or $500 a year and then

00:54:01   but I do know a lot of people who use the upgrade program and I don't even know how

00:54:04   that works because I want to keep my old ones but could they combine it with media subscriptions

00:54:09   I honestly don't even know. I don't know if they would want to I don't know if they don't

00:54:12   want to cross streams on hardware sales and subscriptions. Clearly, I mean, one of the

00:54:20   things they didn't mention at the media event in March was any kind of they didn't even

00:54:24   mention the idea of a bundle. Let you know, leaving aside that they didn't tell us how

00:54:30   much a lot of this these things would cost. They didn't tell us what arcades going to

00:54:33   cost. They didn't mention what TV plus is going to cost. Uh,

00:54:36   clearly they should have a bundle right for just for the subscriptions alone.

00:54:43   Could they have a level of the bundle that includes the upgrade? They could.

00:54:47   And I think it would appeal to some people,

00:54:48   but I don't know if they would want to cross streams on that. I don't know how.

00:54:51   And if that's like some kind of accounting problem, I don't know.

00:54:54   What do you think? And apple cart only.

00:54:59   That's another thing that people are conjecturing. I don't know.

00:55:02   Yeah, I think probably not this year for that. Although it's interesting how much they've been

00:55:07   advertising the apple card. And I saw it on on baseball game yesterday. I've seen Twitter ads

00:55:15   for it. They're really going. I haven't seen it on a game yet. But maybe that's because I only

00:55:20   want do you watch on the MLB TV or Yeah, that's where I was watching. Well, maybe I'll start

00:55:26   I'll start seeing them soon, I don't know.

00:55:29   - Yeah, I mean, I assume they're doing this

00:55:33   to make it a truly mainstream thing,

00:55:35   and it really has the possibility,

00:55:37   if you think about it, to become like the single

00:55:39   most popular credit card in America,

00:55:41   just by virtue of how fragmented that market is.

00:55:44   But anyway, the bundle thing, I mean,

00:55:46   that was definitely one of the things that I thought about

00:55:48   when we were sitting there in March was, wow,

00:55:50   they, A, they haven't given the prices

00:55:52   for a bunch of these things, and B,

00:55:55   Is everyone just going to have to pick and choose which one of these things they get

00:56:01   or are they going to do a big bundle?

00:56:04   I think that the products are kind of different enough that a bundle doesn't really make

00:56:12   a ton of sense.

00:56:15   The person who wants arcade games and the person who wants magazine content is probably

00:56:19   not the same person.

00:56:21   Maybe that is a reason to make them, to incentivize them with a discount.

00:56:28   Music has the broadest appeal, right?

00:56:31   I mean, because I don't know what percentage of people who own Apple products like listening

00:56:38   to music, but surely it's as high as almost anything you could say people subscribe to,

00:56:44   right?

00:56:45   I don't know.

00:56:46   It just seems like music is a universal thing.

00:56:49   Right.

00:56:50   - So right, will Apple Music and Apple TV+

00:56:54   get some sort of bundle opportunity?

00:56:57   Maybe the answer is no, we make things easy enough

00:57:01   to sign up for that, you know,

00:57:03   we don't need whatever mechanics come with the bundle

00:57:06   to make it work.

00:57:10   But, you know, there's also this bigger idea

00:57:15   of an overall like Apple+ or whatever you would call it,

00:57:19   Obviously I agree with you,

00:57:21   they're not gonna use the word prime,

00:57:23   but something that gets you all this stuff

00:57:25   and that's the question,

00:57:28   and the new iPhone every year, I don't know.

00:57:31   We'll see.

00:57:33   - Yeah, we'll see.

00:57:34   The other one that stands out is,

00:57:36   and I don't wanna go too long on it,

00:57:38   'cause we'll find out, I think Tuesday,

00:57:40   I do think that the services stuff

00:57:41   is gonna be a big part of the event,

00:57:44   is the one that people are conjecturing about

00:57:46   the fact that TV plus, which is Apple's original content, just how are they going to, you know,

00:57:52   how could they sell it for $10 a month if Disney is selling a thing for $8 a month that

00:57:57   has the entire Disney library and Apple says, here, you will charge you $10 a month and

00:58:02   we've got, we're starting with five shows. I get that. Uh, and no content library either.

00:58:10   Uh, right, right. With no content library. Right. Which is like, you know, the, well,

00:58:15   Disney owns a massive content library. Netflix. By this time, Netflix has so much original

00:58:22   content with comedy specials and original shows that they do. They own a big content

00:58:27   library and they pay to get stuff. You know, they had friends for a long time, et cetera,

00:58:32   et cetera, all sorts of stuff. And HBO has all these movies and stuff that aren't original

00:58:38   to them. Apple plot TV plus isn't going to have that. I feel like there's gotta be something

00:58:42   more to TV plus in terms of how Apple is going to sell it than just $10 a month and you get

00:58:48   our shows and that's it. They could do that I guess and just say we're that's how confident

00:58:54   we are and that these shows are good that we're charging this premium compared to everybody

00:58:58   else but I think there's more to it and TV plus to me is the one that really seems like

00:59:03   it could go a long way by them just saying, Hey, if you're an Apple music subscriber,

00:59:09   get TV plus you've already got it just you don't have to do anything if you know these

00:59:15   shows the the morning show with Jennifer Aniston and Reese Witherspoon and Steve Carell it's

00:59:18   coming out it's debuting in October and if you're an Apple music subscriber you've already

00:59:22   got it I don't know if that's what they're gonna do and I know you know that and just

00:59:27   use it as a way to drive Apple music subscriptions right I don't know there's got to be something

00:59:33   more to it with that then it had I think there has to be some kind of right they can't just

00:59:37   I mean, they can do whatever they want, but it's a hard sell to say, "Hey, it's 10

00:59:41   bucks a month and we have these three shows for you to watch."

00:59:45   And sorry, we just lost two of them, too.

00:59:50   Yeah, it'll be interesting.

00:59:55   I think that's one of the parts that we know the least about.

00:59:58   Right.

00:59:59   There was a rumor, though, that the Apple Arcade is only going to be—and this was

01:00:03   was uncovered by Guy Rambeau, the hacker extraordinaire who writes at 9to5Mac and somehow got prerelease

01:00:10   access to the internal version of Apple Arcade that's being tested by Apple employees.

01:00:15   And once he got his hands on that, poked around the APIs, and it's by poking at those APIs

01:00:21   and getting responses, he, you know, at least at the time he was poking around, it seemed

01:00:26   like it was going to cost $4.99 a month to subscribe.

01:00:31   And I think everybody was thinking that they said, "Hey, Apple News is $10 a month."

01:00:40   Everybody tends to think, for good reason, that whatever you think Apple is going to

01:00:44   charge for something, double it and maybe that's right.

01:00:48   But sometimes they surprise us.

01:00:49   Remember the original iPad, everybody thought it was going to be $999 and everybody thought,

01:00:53   "Yeah, that sounds about right.

01:00:54   They've charged $1,000 for this amazing tablet."

01:00:57   And then it debuted, started at $499.

01:00:59   It was half the price.

01:01:01   So sometimes they surprise us.

01:01:02   I think the idea that Apple Arcade

01:01:04   might only be $5 a month would,

01:01:06   and the response I saw to that like on Twitter

01:01:09   and from readers was, "Wow, that's great.

01:01:11   "I was on the fence about it,

01:01:12   "but if it's only $5 a month, count me in."

01:01:15   You know?

01:01:16   So I don't know.

01:01:17   I wouldn't be surprised if the overall,

01:01:21   "Hey, even if you wanna subscribe to everything,

01:01:23   "it's not gonna cost as much as you're worried.

01:01:25   "They're not gonna charge you $50 a month for all of it."

01:01:28   - Yeah, that would be a huge splash.

01:01:31   I mean, I think that would definitely take the steam

01:01:33   out of a lot of the games that are not in there.

01:01:35   So that could be interesting.

01:01:37   The one I always wonder too about is iCloud,

01:01:39   which continues to stay the same price,

01:01:42   but not get more compelling.

01:01:45   - I got, I hope they, I don't know.

01:01:48   I think they would have said it at WWDC,

01:01:50   but boy, I don't know.

01:01:51   I would love, I just would love to see them

01:01:54   make it more of a no brainer for people

01:01:56   to upgrade their iCloud storage

01:01:57   so that they can upgrade, you know, back up their devices

01:02:00   and have the massive photo library backed up in the cloud

01:02:04   without concern.

01:02:06   But anyway, we'll see.

01:02:07   - I wonder if that, 'cause you still can't back up a Mac

01:02:09   to iCloud, right? - No.

01:02:10   - I wonder if that's like next year's Mac OS

01:02:15   and iCloud update, I don't know, who knows?

01:02:18   - Apple Watch, everybody for good reason presumes

01:02:22   will see Series 5 Apple Watches.

01:02:25   One of the rumors is that a new feature is going to be sleep tracking.

01:02:29   But it's not clear to me whether the sleep tracking is going to be for the new Series

01:02:33   5 watch or if it's going to be in the OS and available to people who already own watches.

01:02:43   You can already, there are a bunch of good sleep tracking apps that use the Apple Watch.

01:02:49   It's just not built into the system software that comes with the watch.

01:02:52   But there's all sorts of good third-party watch apps for sleep tracking, which I've

01:02:57   been using for a couple of months now since I talked about it on the show with Merlin.

01:03:04   So we'll see how that goes.

01:03:05   But the bigger news, I guess, is on the hardware front, the idea that there's going to be

01:03:08   titanium and ceramic options for the watch.

01:03:15   After your show, I used the Sleep Tracker once, and it told me my sleep sucked.

01:03:20   So I stopped using it. I think that's probably why you're supposed to use it though, right?

01:03:25   I guess. I don't know. I started using it—I don't want to go too far into it—but

01:03:30   it was a couple months ago, and Merlin Mann was on the show, and I was under the weather.

01:03:34   I had some kind of bug, and I was sleeping really poorly. Now I'm back to normal. But

01:03:39   it is interesting. I do sleep—now that I have the tracker, I find that I sleep differently

01:03:42   than I expected. I sleep a little bit less than I've always thought I did. But also,

01:03:46   It varies day by day.

01:03:49   So if I get less sleep than usual,

01:03:51   if I only sleep seven hours,

01:03:52   I often sleep like 10 hours the next night if I can,

01:03:56   but on average it's about nine hours a night.

01:03:59   - Yeah, that's nice.

01:04:00   That's good, man.

01:04:02   - Yeah.

01:04:03   - Indie publisher lifestyle, love it.

01:04:06   - Titanium ceramic.

01:04:08   They already had the ceramic edition watches

01:04:10   from a couple years ago,

01:04:11   and then there weren't any last year.

01:04:12   Now the rumor is they're coming back,

01:04:15   along with titanium. Titanium is a very interesting material for a watch. I know some people are

01:04:22   skeptical about it because way back, what, in 2002 or whenever, when the titanium G4

01:04:28   power books came out, the titanium flaked after usage especially didn't do very well

01:04:34   on the palm rest part with some people's, you know, the secretions from your hands.

01:04:41   I think Apple's material engineering has come a very long way since then. And just knowing

01:04:46   what I know about the watch world, titanium is an excellent material for watches and watch

01:04:51   grade titanium. They could color it and it wouldn't be as something that would flake

01:04:56   off. It would be baked into the material. And that the big difference between one of

01:05:00   the big difference between titanium and stainless steel is that titanium is significantly lighter.

01:05:06   So I don't know, it'd be interesting to see.

01:05:10   I'm curious how they're gonna fall price point wise.

01:05:12   Presumably titanium and ceramic, especially ceramic,

01:05:16   would both be more expensive than the stainless steel ones.

01:05:19   We shall see.

01:05:22   - Yeah, I think it's smart what they're doing with the,

01:05:25   my guess is the case design

01:05:27   probably doesn't change this year.

01:05:29   - Yeah, I don't think so.

01:05:30   'Cause it changed subtly with series four last year

01:05:34   and it got a little closer to the wrist

01:05:36   and they increase the size of the display

01:05:38   to go edge to edge.

01:05:39   But for the most part,

01:05:40   when you pass somebody on the street,

01:05:43   I can't tell if it's a series four or series three, two, one.

01:05:47   It's at an arm's distance.

01:05:49   It's just the iconic Apple Watch round-wreck shape.

01:05:53   So I don't think it would change again.

01:05:55   - Yeah, probably not.

01:05:56   I mean, obviously, you always want it to be thinner,

01:06:01   but it's totally fine.

01:06:04   And my guess is that,

01:06:07   so if the differences are mostly cosmetic or the material,

01:06:13   does the processor get faster

01:06:15   and that sort of stuff change too, you think?

01:06:17   - Yeah, oh yeah, I think--

01:06:19   - Battery life. - Yeah, definitely.

01:06:22   I think that team, and there's so much headroom to gain.

01:06:25   Like every single year, eventually, you know,

01:06:28   like I don't expect the new iPhones

01:06:33   to be significantly faster than last year's iPhones.

01:06:35   Like the iPhone A series chips have,

01:06:40   you know, it'd be like 10, 13%.

01:06:42   Somebody had a leaked benchmark from Geekbench

01:06:46   that was supposedly maybe the new 10R,

01:06:50   and it was like 13% faster or something like that.

01:06:52   And on multi-threaded, it was about the same.

01:06:56   It's just, you know, you can't keep making them

01:07:00   50% faster every year.

01:07:02   run into the, you know, the laws of physics, but the watch processors are getting faster

01:07:08   and faster every year. So I'm sure it will be faster and have longer battery life, et

01:07:12   cetera. What about the rumor of a tile tracking dingus? Something like a little, there's this

01:07:18   rumor that they're going to come out with some kind of little things that you could

01:07:22   like put one in your wallet and then you can find your wallet from the find my whatever

01:07:28   app. I love it. Because, and actually when they announced the new Find My Mac thing that used that

01:07:38   kind of point to point mesh network, so that even when your Mac is offline, my mind immediately

01:07:48   jumped to that rumor of the tile thing and went, "Oh, is that how they're going to get the tile to

01:07:54   to work when it's theoretically offline.

01:07:56   I can't imagine it would have an LTE connection to it.

01:07:59   - I have tile trackers.

01:08:04   I got them for Christmas a few years ago.

01:08:07   I never really used them.

01:08:08   I keep one in my backpack and so I can find, you know,

01:08:10   but I've never lost my backpack.

01:08:12   To me, they weren't quite small enough

01:08:15   and it wasn't quite convenient enough.

01:08:17   So I didn't put one on my keys or anything.

01:08:22   last words. I don't really lose stuff. So I, but I have a dog who's small and likes to escape. So

01:08:28   I'm really excited for him to have one of these. Um, that would be a cool, that would be a cool

01:08:33   use case. I'd never, I didn't even think about that. You know what I lose? I lose things that I

01:08:37   can't possibly put a tracker on like, uh, my pen. Yeah. And, um, it's like one of the ways that I'm

01:08:45   slightly obsessive is I

01:08:47   Swear by these pens

01:08:50   Zebra Sarasa's gel pens they cost like three bucks each

01:08:55   They're very nice gel pens, but they're like three bucks each, but I and I you know, and I have a drawer full of them here

01:09:03   I I've already got I have dozens of them

01:09:05   But I like to get one and use it for a long time like years

01:09:08   And and I'll just replace the in cartridge and if I lose my current pen

01:09:14   It rather than do what I should do is just go get a new one out of the drawer

01:09:18   I'll spend an hour searching the house for it because I want to know where it is. Where is it?

01:09:23   But anyway

01:09:27   I'm still interested what apples angle on this because it seems like such an odd thing for Apple to get into that

01:09:33   I

01:09:34   Would think the only reason they would do it is if it's really compelling

01:09:39   So it reminds me of the the double-a battery charger

01:09:43   it's like you know what these things are out there, but we think we can do them ten times better and

01:09:47   It fits into the software which by the way will keep people, you know

01:09:51   if if it if it works once it's paid for itself, right and if

01:09:57   You know if you got 12 things tagged in your house

01:10:01   Then I guess you're sticking with the iPhone and not and not going to a to a Google pixel or something like that

01:10:07   that. Yeah. And you know, and then Scott to have, you know, it conceivably, it has to

01:10:11   be some kind of thing where it, it wouldn't just tell you, like, if I do find my iPhone,

01:10:17   like where the hell's my phone? It doesn't tell me where it is in my house. It doesn't

01:10:24   say it's in your bedroom dummy. It just says, Hey, it's in your house, right? Like, presumably

01:10:29   with these tags, it, you know, if you're going to find your keys, it's not good enough to

01:10:33   tell you it's in your house. It has to, it has to help you find

01:10:36   it, you know, in your couch cushions or wherever it actually

01:10:38   is. So I don't know how that'll work. But

01:10:41   well, that's where so that there's the AR mode, right?

01:10:44   Supposedly leaked. And if like, maybe you can look in it or show

01:10:47   up in your couch cushion, that would be like a killer demo if

01:10:50   they could do that. Right? Yeah, that seems like a cool thing. So

01:10:53   in other words, you go to the find my app, and you say find my

01:10:56   keys, and then it says like, just hold this up, and it

01:10:59   it switches to an AR mode and it points an arrow

01:11:03   towards your kitchen and you're like, oh yeah,

01:11:05   I left them on the kitchen counter, of course.

01:11:06   I remember now I put them down when I was putting,

01:11:09   you know, cream in my coffee or whatever.

01:11:12   That would be really cool.

01:11:15   And it would definitely be, and Apple is so

01:11:18   almost inexplicably all in on AR

01:11:23   that you can definitely see them demoing

01:11:24   the hell out of it on stage.

01:11:27   - Yeah, and again, this is the kind of thing

01:11:30   where they could probably sell them at a super high margin.

01:11:32   You'll probably end up accidentally spending a few hundred

01:11:35   dollars on them over the course of a couple years.

01:11:37   It keeps you locked into the ecosystem.

01:11:39   It keeps you using the Find My app.

01:11:41   And it's not like that money was gonna go anywhere else

01:11:46   on their stuff.

01:11:49   You're not gonna buy them instead of buying an iPad.

01:11:53   And it's cool, so why not do it?

01:11:56   And one of the things that I think Apple doesn't get enough credit for is their industry-leading

01:12:02   prowess at making really, really small gadgets. I know Serenity Caldwell, before she left

01:12:10   and joined Apple, wrote about it extensively on an annual basis, is, "Why don't other

01:12:16   smartwatch makers make watches that are meant to fit on women's smaller wrists?" And

01:12:23   I don't think it's because they don't care about the market.

01:12:25   I think that Apple is so much better at making tiny, small wrist computers that really only

01:12:30   Apple is able to make them at the 38-millimeter size and still have reasonable battery life

01:12:36   and all the same functionality and performance.

01:12:38   AirPods are tiny.

01:12:41   And I know there's other competing ones now, but there's a reason that Apple came out with

01:12:44   the first really great, tiny, not connected to each other by a wire under your chin or

01:12:51   behind your neck wireless AirPods is that they're really, really good at making tiny

01:12:56   little computers that could fit in something the size of an AirPod. So I think Apple's

01:13:01   tile could be remarkably small and very, very effective because I think they're really,

01:13:07   really good at that.

01:13:08   Dave Asprey Which is why I haven't used the tile I got

01:13:10   for free. It's just too big, right?

01:13:12   Jon Moffitt Yeah, that's what I thought, too. It was

01:13:13   too big for too many cases. And it would have—I carry so few keys, typically, that it would

01:13:17   have been like the, it would have been bigger than the rest of everything else I carry.

01:13:21   Yeah. Yep. Here's a question I got on Twitter right before we started recording. I think

01:13:26   it's fascinating per the event itself. Will Johnny I've be in attendance? I think, yeah,

01:13:34   he still works there. So I think so too. I think he'll be there for years to come. Actually.

01:13:40   I think. Ah, interesting. Uh, but it's a good question. And I, I would,

01:13:44   I would read into it if he weren't there and it would,

01:13:49   my interpretation and I don't know how we'll know if he's there. I mean,

01:13:52   cause it's, you know, it's not like he's going to be on stage, but typically,

01:13:57   you know,

01:13:57   I don't know how often he shows up like on the feed just when they show the

01:14:00   audience and stuff like that.

01:14:01   He's usually in the front row. He shows up in the,

01:14:04   no, he's usually in the second row. Oh really? Oh yeah. Better than me. Yeah.

01:14:09   because I've had I've sat up close a couple times. I don't I'm not going to say always

01:14:14   but because I don't know I don't I don't necessarily sit where I can see him every time. But at

01:14:19   least every time I have seen him he's he's in the second row usually but the one thing

01:14:26   that's very consistent is for like the last 10 years every single time I've seen him in

01:14:30   an Apple event he is seated right next to Laureen Powell. Oh, yes. Steve Jobs is

01:14:39   wife. Every time I have, and the only time I can't, the only time I would say that I

01:14:46   didn't see him seated next to her is because I didn't, I wasn't close enough to tell.

01:14:49   And I—

01:14:52   Interesting. I think they're friends.

01:14:55   Oh, they're, I think they're dear friends. I really do. I think that's why he sits next to her.

01:14:59   I think that they are genuinely close, very, very close. And for the same reason that she

01:15:07   keeps attending events is the same reason I think Johnny I've might still keep attending events is

01:15:13   because in some sense, whether he works there or not, there's there's so almost like a familial

01:15:17   relationship. You know, I see Bertrand surlay at the events still, year after year. I'm again,

01:15:26   I don't know if he goes to everyone, but I've seen him at them frequently. And he hasn't worked at

01:15:30   Apple since, I don't know, 2006. There are a lot, you know, people who leave on good terms,

01:15:37   you know, Scott Forstall doesn't show up at the events, but people who leave on their own terms

01:15:43   often keep coming back, you know, just because it's just part of the culture of being at Apple,

01:15:49   that they really, the people who, the executives who are there, they really do love these events.

01:15:56   So my guess is he will, and I would read into it if he wasn't.

01:16:00   Do you think he'll keep bringing his pals who fly in from overseas and all that kind of stuff?

01:16:06   Yeah, probably. He could probably bring as many people as he wants.

01:16:08   A bunch of the random guys I follow from Tokyo are

01:16:11   frequent guests of Johnny Ive at the Apple event. It's always funny.

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01:19:02   How about long term iPhone rumors? Touch IDs coming back supposedly within an in screen

01:19:08   sensor in addition to face ID and a new and what do you think about that? That's it's

01:19:15   a little weird to me and I'm a face ID believer and one of the rumors this year about the

01:19:19   new phones is that the face ID system is going to improve such that it's going to have a

01:19:23   much wider angle in particular to solve the problem of waking up your phone when it's

01:19:31   face up flat on a table. And it's funny because when that leaked a couple of weeks ago, it

01:19:37   was literally the day after my family had gone to eat at a restaurant and my wife was

01:19:43   complaining in particular about that because at the restaurant she had her phone on the

01:19:47   table and she even said, "The one thing I hate about this is that I can't look at my

01:19:51   phone just the way I could with the old one by putting my finger on it when it's on the

01:19:57   table." So it'd be cool if they solved that by having a wider angle. But other than making

01:20:05   face ID work even better. I can't see why I would want touch ID again. Some people,

01:20:12   when I linked to this the other day, said that the one thing they still hate about face

01:20:15   ID is using it with Apple Pay, that they hate to double-click the side button and that they

01:20:22   feel that's awkward and feel that that's the one thing that was better with touch ID, that

01:20:27   you just put your finger on the phone and get it near the NFC reader and beep, you're

01:20:31   And yeah, I don't know what to make of it.

01:20:36   I don't know.

01:20:37   - I wonder if there's more to it

01:20:41   than just what we have historically used

01:20:44   Touch ID and Face ID for.

01:20:48   If it, you know, it could be part of a more sophisticated

01:20:53   authentication scheme for two-factor or something like that.

01:20:57   Or I don't know, something seems weird.

01:21:00   I mean, I guess if you're daisy chaining

01:21:03   those two technologies together,

01:21:05   like there's almost zero percent.

01:21:07   Yeah, totally.

01:21:08   - But on the other hand, it's also more setup, right?

01:21:10   Because now when you get a new phone

01:21:12   or you restore your phone from the factory settings

01:21:14   or whatever, now you've got two things to set up, right?

01:21:17   And I've done it enough, like I've just reset an old iPad

01:21:20   to run the beta on and it's like touch ID,

01:21:23   even with like iOS 13, still,

01:21:25   it takes significantly longer to set up than face ID.

01:21:27   Like the face ID is remarkably quick

01:21:29   where you just move your head in a circle

01:21:31   and then they're like, do it again.

01:21:32   And they're like, okay, you're good.

01:21:33   And it's like, really?

01:21:34   That was it?

01:21:35   Like touch ID, it's like you touch, touch, touch,

01:21:37   and then they're like, change your grip.

01:21:38   And it's like, okay, touch, touch, touch.

01:21:41   I'm not gonna say it was, touch ID takes too long,

01:21:43   but everything you have to do,

01:21:46   there's enough stuff going on in that

01:21:48   you're setting up a new iPhone first run experience

01:21:52   that adding another one seems like,

01:21:55   I don't know, not that great.

01:21:57   And is the extra security worth that much?

01:21:59   I don't know.

01:22:00   I like you said, I think there's truth to this.

01:22:04   And the rumors, the Gurman rumor puts it at

01:22:09   maybe for next year's phones, but maybe not till 2021.

01:22:13   And then there was some other analyst

01:22:15   who I just linked to last night

01:22:17   who put out a report back in May,

01:22:20   pretty much saying the same two things

01:22:23   Gurman reported yesterday,

01:22:24   which is that Touch ID is coming back,

01:22:27   possibly in a sensor that would work on the whole screen.

01:22:30   So you wouldn't even have to put it on a circle

01:22:31   at the bottom, you could just put your finger

01:22:33   anywhere on the screen.

01:22:34   And this other rumor that there's gonna be a new SE,

01:22:39   small, cheap, smaller, cheaper iPhone coming in March

01:22:44   like the SE did back in 2016.

01:22:47   - I mean, maybe if this is part of like,

01:22:50   okay, they get rid of the notch

01:22:52   and the selfie camera is so small that

01:22:56   that a lot of the other stuff that they put in there

01:22:59   to do face ID no longer fits.

01:23:02   And the camera itself is less secure

01:23:07   than the old infrared camera,

01:23:09   but when it matches up with touch ID is secure.

01:23:12   I don't know, now I'm just making stuff up,

01:23:14   but there's gotta be something more to it, I think.

01:23:18   - Yeah, I sorta do too.

01:23:20   But it's interesting, I don't know.

01:23:25   And is there anybody, like in the real world now

01:23:28   that we're two years into the Face ID era,

01:23:31   at least two years, as of next week it'll be two years

01:23:35   since the iPhone X was announced.

01:23:37   And everybody, like when Touch ID first came out,

01:23:41   and it's good that people tested it,

01:23:43   but people figured out that there's technically a way

01:23:46   that if somebody made a perfect print of your finger

01:23:49   and did like a little Mission Impossible thing

01:23:52   to put a silicon fake copy of your fingerprint,

01:23:56   they could get into your touch ID.

01:23:58   And people did testing two years ago

01:24:02   where they'd find identical twins

01:24:03   and see if they could get into their face ID.

01:24:06   And I remember there was a story

01:24:07   where some teenage boy could unlock his mom's,

01:24:11   he looked enough like his own mother

01:24:12   that he could unlock her phone with his face.

01:24:15   And Apple warned that twins are definitely a problem.

01:24:20   siblings might—like if you have two teenagers, like a 12-year-old and a 14-year-old, and

01:24:26   they're both the same gender, they might be able to unlock each other's phones.

01:24:33   But overall, Apple touted the fact that it was face IDs way more significant. I forget

01:24:38   the exact numbers Phil Schuler said on stage, but it wasn't a little bit more secure.

01:24:42   It was like one in 50,000 people could unlock a touch ID device, and it was like one in

01:24:47   million for face ID. Presumably if they use both, it would be 50,000 times a million. I don't know.

01:24:56   The thing I worry more about, and we saw this week what can happen is the

01:25:04   SIM card swapping with Jack Dorsey. I'm not sure if you've been SIM swapped yet,

01:25:13   But no, I was this summer and really tell you it's not fun. Really tell me how that happened

01:25:18   well, I was living in Paris for a few months and

01:25:23   Still have my US phone and woke up and I just read an article about a guy who had

01:25:29   Who had been sim swapped and

01:25:33   Got a hundred thousand dollars of Bitcoin stolen from him. Oh man, so I was already

01:25:42   - That's like losing cash because it's not,

01:25:45   you can't go and get a refund or whatever.

01:25:47   - Exactly, and so I was already worried about it.

01:25:49   I don't have any Bitcoin, so, you know,

01:25:52   but it still was not fun.

01:25:55   And I had written a post about crypto,

01:26:00   so I wonder if that's how someone, I don't know,

01:26:03   I'm even reluctant to even talk much about it,

01:26:07   and I haven't tweeted about it or anything,

01:26:08   but I'll talk a little bit about it here

01:26:10   because it happened.

01:26:11   Um, anyway, I woke up one morning already paranoid about this SIM swapping stuff.

01:26:17   And, um, you know, I had to get up at six for a flight and I noticed that my.

01:26:22   Network connection had been turned off, which was weird.

01:26:25   Um, and I had gotten a text overnight from my carrier saying, uh, your, your

01:26:33   SIM card has been changed, let us know if this isn't you or something like that.

01:26:39   And I was like, oh shit, I don't have time for this right now.

01:26:43   I have to go to the airport.

01:26:44   Um, so I immediately grabbed my wife's phone and called my carrier and said,

01:26:50   you idiots, um, and it's, I'm so frustrated cause I, I proactively

01:26:55   reached out to them and said, Hey, I'm really worried about this.

01:27:00   Will you make sure that my account is locked down?

01:27:02   And they're like, yeah, sure.

01:27:03   No, no worries.

01:27:04   No worries.

01:27:05   And they still did it.

01:27:06   Uh, it still got hacked.

01:27:08   And they haven't conclusively told me why.

01:27:12   If you look at most of these things,

01:27:16   it's someone goes into a store and my hunch is that

01:27:20   it's someone who works at a store,

01:27:23   gets a list from a friend of 10 accounts

01:27:27   that they want turned over or something like that.

01:27:30   And it may not even be an owned and operated store.

01:27:32   It might be one of those third party stores,

01:27:34   which seem even sketchier.

01:27:37   but they've got access to the ability,

01:27:40   like if it's a store with carrier,

01:27:44   let's not name any particular carrier, I guess,

01:27:47   but carrier X, if you can get a carrier X SIM card there,

01:27:51   that just the retail clerk can go in there

01:27:54   and type a phone number and print a new SIM card

01:27:56   and say, okay, that number is now on this card.

01:27:59   - I think so.

01:28:00   - Yeah.

01:28:00   - And they're supposed to ask all sorts of questions

01:28:03   and verify it, but they could just,

01:28:05   they don't really have to.

01:28:06   all that stuff and that's what I didn't that's what I'd love to know like did someone

01:28:09   Make a fake ID with my name on it or do they just have a friend who works at one of those stores

01:28:14   You know wherever and said hey, let's swap these

01:28:17   Ten numbers did they look me up because I had written about Bitcoin or totally random. I don't know

01:28:24   Or was you know was I in one of the did they have a password of mine from a previous

01:28:33   hack of some sort of you know, whatever system I had, I don't

01:28:37   know. And I'm not sure if there's even a way to find out

01:28:40   for any of them. But at any rate, I got my number back

01:28:46   within, you know, five minutes of calling them. And it had only

01:28:49   been compromised for a few hours.

01:28:51   But were you able to get it back on the card you already had in

01:28:53   your phone? Yes. So you didn't have to like go, you didn't give

01:28:56   me your empower. So you can't go to us carrier. So wow, that's

01:28:59   exactly that's pretty smooth that it worked that well for

01:29:01   you.

01:29:02   It worked pretty well. However, I then and I made my flight

01:29:06   But then I spent the rest of the week in an absolute just state of paranoia

01:29:11   Right at my at my bars every five minutes like oh did I lose signal again? Did I lose signal?

01:29:16   And weren't you also weren't you also worried like which of any of my accounts been compromised?

01:29:23   Because maybe they were using the phone number is the second factor or something like that bingo

01:29:27   and in fact, the first thing they had done is try to

01:29:32   get into my two-factor account because that you can look up the

01:29:38   texts that your number has received.

01:29:40   And one of them was from the two-factor service I use.

01:29:46   And so they were able to at least see the accounts that I have two-factor

01:29:51   for, but they didn't know my password for that.

01:29:53   So they didn't actually get to decrypt them.

01:29:55   But my, my guess is that they were looking for Coinbase or something like that.

01:30:01   And I don't have any Bitcoin, so don't--

01:30:06   - Don't rob me.

01:30:08   - Don't even try, there's nothing there, I promise.

01:30:10   But it was crazy.

01:30:13   But what I did do then is a full security audit

01:30:16   and there's some really great guides on,

01:30:20   I think the one I found was on Medium,

01:30:21   of ways that you can really lock down your accounts,

01:30:26   including taking your phone number

01:30:29   off of your Google account and stuff like that.

01:30:32   And doing clever things with Google Voice.

01:30:34   So it sucked and it was more an emotional thing

01:30:39   than anything else.

01:30:41   I did get to see that the texts,

01:30:43   I didn't get to see the content of the text messages

01:30:46   they received, but I knew that there weren't a lot

01:30:50   and that they were not,

01:30:51   none of my actual accounts had been compromised

01:30:54   and I'm thankful for that.

01:30:57   This has happened to a dozen of the people

01:31:00   I know this summer, and it's crazy.

01:31:02   It's just an epidemic, and I don't think the carriers

01:31:05   are doing enough about it.

01:31:07   - No. - It's really not.

01:31:09   - And it's such an important part of your ID.

01:31:11   And there's so many places default to using your cell phone

01:31:15   as your second factor.

01:31:17   I'm often very lazy about such things,

01:31:21   and I was late to do two-factor on lots of things,

01:31:24   But over the last two years, I've cleaned up my act a lot.

01:31:29   And one of the things, my friend Mac Jay Ceglowski,

01:31:33   the pinboard guy, is really, he's so smart about it,

01:31:38   and he's really good at explaining it.

01:31:39   And he spends a lot of time talking to

01:31:43   people running for Congress.

01:31:47   He ran a thing that I supported last year

01:31:49   called the Great Slate, which is trying to get

01:31:51   Democrats elected in Republican districts, you know around like 10 great candidates around

01:31:56   the country. And in addition to like fundraising and trying to help them and stuff, he had

01:32:01   like a whole guide to what campaigns should do for information security, you know, and

01:32:08   one of the big things is don't use your, don't put your cell phone number on your Google

01:32:14   account. Do use Gmail, that Gmail is very secure and Google has very good security stuff,

01:32:21   but don't even give Google your phone number.

01:32:23   Use something else like Google Authenticator,

01:32:26   which has third-party options,

01:32:28   but then you get these one-time codes and stuff

01:32:30   because your SIM card just cannot be defended.

01:32:33   It really is dangerous.

01:32:35   And the same thing that you just said,

01:32:36   if you do have to use a phone number,

01:32:38   use a Google Voice number, which you can use

01:32:41   and you can get text messages too,

01:32:44   and then it's all that your Google Voice number

01:32:46   is as protected as your Google account,

01:32:49   and there's no SIM card that they can hack

01:32:52   to change the number or something like that.

01:32:54   So they can't take over your Google Voice number

01:32:56   unless they take over your Google account

01:32:57   and they can't, you know, all sorts of stuff.

01:32:59   Anyway, scary times, glad it worked out for them.

01:33:01   - Just make it hard, make it complicated.

01:33:03   And yeah, I mean, again, lucky that nothing was compromised

01:33:08   that I know of, but it was,

01:33:13   there were three or four days there

01:33:15   where that's basically all I was thinking about.

01:33:16   So everyone, be careful.

01:33:18   - Oh, why I started talking about this,

01:33:23   I wish that was something that Apple

01:33:25   could do something about with the phone.

01:33:27   And that's why I had high hopes for eSIM,

01:33:31   although, you know, when you think about it,

01:33:32   eSIM doesn't actually make it that much harder

01:33:35   for them to actually--

01:33:36   - 'Cause the SIMs are still assigned by the carriers.

01:33:39   - Yeah, but man, it's been what, a year now,

01:33:42   and eSIM really doesn't seem like much has happened with it.

01:33:47   you know, especially this summer, I was traveling a lot

01:33:49   and, you know, the carriers that had it,

01:33:52   they would have it for one of their types of accounts,

01:33:56   but not others.

01:33:57   A lot of times they wouldn't support it for prepaid.

01:33:59   So it's not like you could go into a Vodafone shop

01:34:02   in London and get a eSIM second line

01:34:05   as your prepaid account there.

01:34:07   I wonder if they'll talk about eSIM at all for the iPhone,

01:34:12   but I really wish actually the full hardware dual SIM

01:34:16   seem like it's actually still more useful

01:34:20   than having the eSIM.

01:34:21   - Yeah.

01:34:22   It's no good, eSIM's no good for me.

01:34:25   I've figured out because as somebody who reviews iPhones

01:34:29   and also sometimes Android, or at least tries Android phones

01:34:33   and maybe wants to try using my main number with them,

01:34:36   but especially with just using several iPhones a year

01:34:39   based on getting review units,

01:34:41   just being able to pop out an actual SIM card

01:34:44   pop it into another phone is just, I kind of need it. But for most people, the eSIM

01:34:50   thing should be better. But I wish it were more secure. Anyway, it's not secure. If

01:34:56   you're out there, don't use your phone number as, your cell phone number as second factor.

01:35:01   It's really dangerous.

01:35:02   Yeah, that's the main thing.

01:35:03   Yeah. And if you have to use a phone number, get a Google Voice number. And, you know,

01:35:09   And if you run a service that requires a phone number as a second factor, push the people

01:35:16   at your service to support something like Google Authenticator and Authy and those things

01:35:23   that give you these one-time codes and stuff like that. Anything other than phone numbers.

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01:36:57   throughout your entire house.

01:36:58   So no more dead spot in the master bedroom

01:37:01   just because it's on the third or fourth floor

01:37:02   or something like that.

01:37:03   Really great.

01:37:05   You're hearing me talk right now to you,

01:37:08   to Dan Fromer over in Eero Network.

01:37:11   Love it, really strong signal.

01:37:13   I really love the product, I've been using it for years.

01:37:18   Go to ero.com/thetalkshow and enter the code,

01:37:23   the talk show at checkout

01:37:25   and you will get free overnight shipping on your order.

01:37:28   So you could pause this podcast right now,

01:37:30   go and place your order at ero.com/thetalkshow

01:37:33   and it'll be in your hands tomorrow for free.

01:37:37   The shipping at least.

01:37:39   That's ero.com/thetalkshow with code thetalkshow

01:37:43   at checkout to get free overnight shipping

01:37:45   and you must use this URL to receive the offer.

01:37:49   Ero.com/thetalkshow.

01:37:51   My thanks to them.

01:37:54   I can't let you go. You're my points guy. You run the actual points party. Can't go

01:38:00   without talking a little bit about Apple Card. One thing I have a bit of follow-up where

01:38:07   a couple of weeks ago when I was talking about Apple Card, I think with Jim Dalrymple, and

01:38:11   I was talking about how I prefer cash back to points. I've had Amex for like 10 years

01:38:17   and we've got a gazillion points.

01:38:20   But that my, and I know,

01:38:23   I talk to you about this every year, Dan,

01:38:26   about how do I figure out how much money

01:38:28   an Amex point is worth?

01:38:29   It is maddeningly hard.

01:38:32   I, speaking out of my ass a few weeks ago on the show,

01:38:36   said I tend to think of them as being worth two cents each,

01:38:39   and a whole bunch of readers were like, you're nuts.

01:38:41   They're nowhere near two cents each.

01:38:42   Although, depending on what you do, like through Amex Travel,

01:38:45   you can maybe make them worth that.

01:38:47   But the way that Amazon lets you use your Amex points

01:38:52   just to buy stuff from Amazon,

01:38:53   you're only getting like 7/10 of a cent per point

01:38:57   or something like that.

01:38:58   So me valuing them at 2 cents each,

01:39:01   which would be the equivalent of 2% cash back,

01:39:03   is probably wrong.

01:39:05   - It's a little ambitious,

01:39:07   although I think that is what the point,

01:39:09   and the points guy is thepointsguy.com,

01:39:12   which is probably the biggest points site.

01:39:17   And it's like 100 employees now or something like that.

01:39:21   So if you look on their site,

01:39:22   it says MX membership rewards are worth two cents each.

01:39:26   And same as Chase Points.

01:39:29   That is very, very ambitious.

01:39:34   - Optimistic.

01:39:37   - Optimistic based on a very specific thing,

01:39:41   which is transferring them to a partner.

01:39:46   So one of the things you can do with the AmEx points

01:39:49   and Chase points and some other points programs

01:39:51   is transfer them sometimes on a one-to-one basis,

01:39:55   sometimes on a slightly different ratio to other programs.

01:39:59   - Like an airline or something.

01:40:02   - Exactly, and then use them to book award travel

01:40:07   in first class or business class.

01:40:10   and then use the theoretical value of that ticket

01:40:14   based on a cash fare that you would never actually pay,

01:40:17   like a $10,000 ticket.

01:40:20   And then you do the math and then you get to,

01:40:23   and it can be more than two points, two cents,

01:40:25   it could be five cents, it could be three to four cents.

01:40:29   And that, when I get that kind of rate, it's usually,

01:40:33   and I have a Amex too, I mostly do chase points,

01:40:36   When I get that rate, it's when I transfer points usually to,

01:40:42   often to a Hyatt Hotel account or something like that and book a room in

01:40:48   Tokyo that would cost $800 or something like that. And that's when I'm getting

01:40:52   more than 2 cents a point. It's rare though, to do that. And Amex actually

01:40:58   gives you a worse deal than Chase when you're just using their booking site.

01:41:03   which I didn't know. I got this Amex early this year or late last year and I didn't realize

01:41:10   that the points would be worth so little when you're booking through their system. Chase

01:41:16   actually gives you a better deal. If you have the reserve, it gives you one and a half cents

01:41:21   per point guaranteed basically. Amex is I think one cent per point if you're booking

01:41:28   a flight and even less if you're booking a hotel. But it really depends on the thing.

01:41:33   So yeah, the maximum value again is transferring it, which is totally doable if you specifically

01:41:41   know what you want. And then again, if you're going to really believe that the cash value is

01:41:47   how much it's worth, I mean, I don't think either of us are going to spend 10 grand, even on a first

01:41:53   class flight to Hong Kong or something like that. Some people do. People do every day.

01:41:58   It's amazing. What was that terrible leak that Apple was sending?

01:42:04   Yeah, on United. I think it was … Or that they just have a standing order for like 40

01:42:09   … A lot of business class tickets.

01:42:11   … 40 seats every single day on flights to Beijing.

01:42:15   Shenzhen or something.

01:42:16   Yeah, Shenzhen or something like that.

01:42:19   It's nice if you can do it, I guess.

01:42:21   So yeah, so that's where that two cents.

01:42:24   I try not to get less than one and a half cents per point from Chase and Amex and those

01:42:29   types of things.

01:42:30   This summer, I used some Amex points very well to take some last minute flights that

01:42:38   for whatever reason were priced inexpensively in points.

01:42:42   I think I was flying from Paris to Milan for the furniture festival.

01:42:47   But if you had paid cash for them, it was like 800 euros or something.

01:42:50   Well, that was one of the things that I heard from a couple of readers or listeners, I guess,

01:42:54   since I only talked about it.

01:42:55   But a couple of listeners who obviously know way more about it than I do said the same

01:42:58   thing that if you ever make last minute travel or flights—and I tend to because stuff like

01:43:05   Apple events, invitations don't tend to come far in advance.

01:43:11   It just happens.

01:43:13   When you book with points, typically—not always because they're airlines, so always

01:43:17   never applies—but typically, the points value doesn't go up when you book last minute.

01:43:24   Like a Paris to Milan flight might be the same number of points whether you book three

01:43:29   months in advance or three days in advance.

01:43:32   You can really score some deals that way in terms of what you would actually pay because

01:43:38   a lot of the times when you book last minute and you're just paying for the flight, you're

01:43:42   oh my god, I can't believe what I'm paying for this flight for a

01:43:45   seat and coach.

01:43:45   Totally. And the the maddening thing about points is that

01:43:51   there's no hard and fast rule like that could actually be more

01:43:54   points, it could be fewer. One crazy thing that tends to happen

01:43:58   is that sometimes airlines open up cheap points tickets right

01:44:02   away, right before the flight goes. Yeah, day before. And I of

01:44:07   course, am a jerk. So if I noticed that last year, I had an

01:44:11   an expensive points ticket booked

01:44:13   and I noticed that like the day before

01:44:16   that they had opened up a cheaper points ticket.

01:44:18   So I called in and had half my points refunded to me.

01:44:21   But hey, gotta do it, right?

01:44:25   - Yeah.

01:44:26   - So yeah, that's a great strategy

01:44:27   is using points for last minute.

01:44:29   One thing that I didn't know until I got the Amex card

01:44:33   was I didn't realize it took a whole statement,

01:44:36   basically two statements before you get your points,

01:44:40   which makes the Apple Cash thing actually really,

01:44:43   really compelling because you literally get the cash

01:44:45   the next morning.

01:44:46   - I'm finding that now that I've had my card

01:44:50   for a couple of weeks now, my Apple card,

01:44:53   I find that very satisfying.

01:44:55   And it's irrational because, you know,

01:44:57   it's, you know, sometimes it's like I just bought

01:45:00   a six pack of beer and I'm getting 70 cents back

01:45:04   or I don't even know what it is, you know,

01:45:05   but sometimes it's like a quarter or something like that.

01:45:10   But I still find it satisfying.

01:45:13   It's like, here, here's some cash.

01:45:14   It's just right there, there you go.

01:45:16   - Yep, yeah, and I think, again,

01:45:19   if you're gonna invest a lot of time and energy

01:45:23   into and collect points and put together

01:45:26   the trip of a lifetime or the trip of a year

01:45:29   once or twice a year,

01:45:30   you can totally get a lot of value out of it.

01:45:34   Someday I'll actually do the math

01:45:36   and remember to write everything down

01:45:38   and see what my total redemption value for the year is.

01:45:42   It could be as high as 5% of my spend.

01:45:44   It could be even more, I don't know.

01:45:46   But if you're not, and if you just want some rewards

01:45:50   and you want them quickly and you want them to be useful,

01:45:54   I've already earned two free coffees from Apple Card

01:45:57   and I barely use it.

01:45:58   And just use it right away.

01:46:01   And I think for a lot of people,

01:46:02   that'll be super compelling.

01:46:04   - So basically what I've concluded is that,

01:46:08   like you said, it's optimistic to treat Amex points,

01:46:11   and you do get a point per dollar spent.

01:46:13   So if I buy a dollar on my Amex, I get a point.

01:46:18   Two months later.

01:46:19   - I believe you, and you, I think you still have

01:46:21   the Platinum, so you probably get five points per dollar

01:46:23   on airplane tickets and stuff like that.

01:46:26   - Yeah, but we also got the American card,

01:46:29   so now we're using that for the tickets.

01:46:32   But basically, if it's optimistic to treat an Amex point as worth two cents, on a day-to-day

01:46:45   basis, just going out buying groceries and doing all these things where I can use Apple Pay,

01:46:50   and day-to-day, my life here in Philadelphia, I can use Apple Pay just about everywhere,

01:46:58   know, just running errands. I just use the Apple Card now because getting 2% cash back

01:47:06   to me, it's like, well, then there's no optimism about it. I'm just getting 2% back in a cash

01:47:11   account. So why not? So anything where I actually have to hand the card over, I still use the

01:47:15   Amex and anything where I can use Apple Pay, I just use Apple Card.

01:47:20   Yup. Yeah. It ends up being a pretty decent deal, especially relative to most, I think,

01:47:29   half of the spending. So I wrote about this a bit on the new consumer. I wrote a couple

01:47:34   pieces on—I wrote one piece on Apple Card so far. And I should write my new points party

01:47:40   on Apple Card soon. The 2% is actually pretty good. I mean, half of all spending is still

01:47:46   on debit cards where people are getting nothing. A lot of that is because people either do

01:47:50   not want or can't get credit cards, although. So that's part of what Apple's trying to do

01:47:55   is make it easier to get a credit card and make it less punishing. I mean, you still

01:47:59   can spiral into debt, which is not good, but the fee structure, at least for the Apple

01:48:05   card, no late fees, no overcharge fees, all that kind of stuff is a lot friendlier than

01:48:10   than most cards, period.

01:48:12   But 2% is not bad.

01:48:17   And what's interesting is this little economy

01:48:20   that started to happen.

01:48:22   They've already reached,

01:48:23   they had the launch deal with Uber.

01:48:25   I'm not sure how long it goes for.

01:48:27   - Yeah.

01:48:28   - Uber, if you use Uber and the Apple card through,

01:48:31   the Uber, I think it's only through Apple Pay.

01:48:34   I'm not entirely sure.

01:48:35   - Yeah, you know what, I'm not sure how that works either.

01:48:38   - Well, either way, they give you 3% back

01:48:40   instead of two, so that's 50% more reward spending on Uber.

01:48:45   Thought it was interesting they did it with Uber

01:48:47   even though they're shareholders in Lyft,

01:48:49   or at least were, anyway, doesn't matter.

01:48:51   And then on the other end, the Apple Cash economy,

01:48:55   and I don't know how much they're gonna talk

01:48:58   about Apple Cash because I think Apple Card

01:49:01   is probably the main message at least for now,

01:49:04   but you could see a world in which redeeming your Apple Cash

01:49:07   You could also get a deal whether you're spending it at a partner or on the iTunes store or

01:49:16   whatever where they could multiply your Apple cash by some certain amount in exchange for

01:49:23   using it toward something.

01:49:28   That hasn't really started yet.

01:49:30   Right now Apple cash is just worth whatever it is.

01:49:33   but I could see some,

01:49:35   I could imagine an interesting economy

01:49:37   picking up around Apple Cash at some point,

01:49:40   the way that Square Cash and some of the other ones

01:49:43   have built bonus programs.

01:49:46   Although Square has since ruined the--

01:49:49   - Oh, this, I wanted to, this is the thing.

01:49:51   So where, I forget when I was in New York

01:49:53   and you and I, and you introduced me to this.

01:49:56   Sometimes you-- - I think it was like,

01:49:58   it was almost a year ago, man. (laughs)

01:50:00   - Well, you introduced me. - Yeah, it was last fall.

01:50:02   I've had the Square Cash account.

01:50:04   That's where you use it.

01:50:07   They just call it cash.

01:50:08   It's the little green--

01:50:09   - Cash app. - Cash app.

01:50:10   And I've been using that to send money to friends,

01:50:14   to square up deals where one person puts a credit card in,

01:50:17   you'd send, you know, use Square Cash.

01:50:18   And it's easy to hook it up to your bank account

01:50:20   and move money in either direction,

01:50:23   without paying any fees at all,

01:50:25   just to put more money in my Square Cash account,

01:50:27   blah, blah, blah.

01:50:28   But what you can do with the Square Cash is you can say,

01:50:30   give me a debit card, not a credit card, a debit card. And

01:50:34   they send you a debit card. And it's nice because you can like

01:50:39   sign your name and then they actually like it laser embed the

01:50:41   signature right on the front of the card or you could draw like

01:50:44   a funny face, you could do whatever you want with it. Make

01:50:48   your own little design. But anyway, the reason you turned me

01:50:50   on to this was that they have these things, they actually do

01:50:53   have rewards, even though it's a debit card, they call them

01:50:55   boosts. And it's a weird system. And it's just the only way it

01:51:00   would pot like no bank could ever offer this this could only happen from a

01:51:03   startup with VC money coming in through a fire hose like no bank could ever do

01:51:09   this they're a public company now which is crazy but yeah yeah but no no no sane

01:51:15   bank would ever do this right like in the same way that no traditional

01:51:20   retailer could just take all of their profits and pump it back into the

01:51:24   business like Amazon did forever you know as opposed to actually turning a

01:51:29   profit. But the boosts actually pay. And the one boost—the idea is that every month or

01:51:38   so they change the boosts that are offered. And I guess they have partnerships with some

01:51:42   of these companies, and some of them they just do on their own. But they had for a while

01:51:45   they had like a Shake Shack boost. And you can only have one boost on your account at

01:51:49   a time. You go in the app and you say, "Here's the boost I want. I want Shake Shack." And

01:51:52   if you go to Shake Shack, you'd get like, I don't know, 15% off your order or something

01:51:57   like that. They still have Whole Foods on there. I think what they offer is like 5%

01:52:05   up to $200 or something like that. So it's equivalent to getting like the Amazon or the

01:52:11   Whole Foods card or whatever it is that you can get 5% at Whole Foods. But the one that

01:52:16   made me get the card is they had a—it was a coffee shop boost. And any coffee shop you

01:52:22   could buy, they would give you $1 back, not like a percentage,

01:52:26   $1. And I tend to buy just plain drip coffee. So it's like $2.50

01:52:31   or $3. I go in, get a coffee for $2.50. And using that card, I

01:52:37   would get a full dollar back every time. And I use that I got

01:52:42   the card as soon as you told me to I've used it for a year and

01:52:44   now that the bastards have taken it away. I don't understand how

01:52:49   it works anymore.

01:52:50   Well, now, I'm looking at it right now. Now you have to use

01:52:53   the card five times to unlock the boost. So basically, they're

01:52:57   trying to get you because people like me who only use it on boost

01:53:01   purchases.

01:53:01   I ever used it for a year. The car is totally worn out. Because

01:53:07   because the the the nearest coffee shop to me doesn't take

01:53:13   Apple Pay. So I'd have to hand the card over and so they're

01:53:16   scanning it, all I used it for was buying coffee. I was getting the equivalent of a

01:53:24   40% cash back.

01:53:26   It was a great deal. I mean, the Whole Foods used to be 10%, now it's 5%. But 10% back

01:53:32   at Whole Foods is crazy. That's a way better deal than the Amazon card was giving you.

01:53:37   You can't get 10% on any credit card. It's insane.

01:53:40   No. No. Unless, no.

01:53:43   even 5% is a really good deal, especially on a debit card where

01:53:46   you're not, you know, you there's no even if you're

01:53:49   resistant to credit cards on principle or something like

01:53:52   that. 5% is great.

01:53:55   Yeah, I know how to get 10% back at Whole Foods, but it only

01:54:00   happens sometimes. Anyway, points party.com. I talked about

01:54:05   it there, I think but yeah, basically, they just want you to

01:54:09   use the card more to get that boost back.

01:54:12   And then I think it's only valid for five times after that.

01:54:15   It's still basically good for five bucks

01:54:17   every once in a while too.

01:54:18   - Yeah, but I don't wanna use that card anywhere else.

01:54:20   - No, what they have, and now it's,

01:54:23   so I'm looking at mine right now,

01:54:24   10% off at Sweetgreen, 5% off at Ticketmaster,

01:54:28   10% off Bed Bath and Beyond.

01:54:31   But the one that is an official partnership now actually

01:54:35   is 15% off every order at DoorDash.

01:54:38   and they just did a big deal with DoorDash.

01:54:42   They sold Caviar to DoorDash.

01:54:44   Caviar was the food delivery service that Square had owned.

01:54:47   - Oh, I didn't know that Square owned that, okay.

01:54:50   - Yeah, so they sold it to DoorDash

01:54:51   and they're doing this marketing partnership

01:54:54   with the Boost as well.

01:54:56   So if you look at most of the Boosts,

01:54:59   it says at the bottom,

01:55:00   Whole Foods has nothing to do with this.

01:55:04   Boost provided solely by Cash App.

01:55:08   The one with DoorDash does not say that.

01:55:10   So that is an official partnership.

01:55:12   But it's a very clever idea because again,

01:55:14   much like the Apple Cash and even actually

01:55:17   more than the Apple Cash,

01:55:18   it's money that you get back instantly.

01:55:20   And it's actual money.

01:55:21   It's not points that will show up in a month and a half

01:55:25   that you can use for something else.

01:55:26   So very clever. - No, it's literal cash.

01:55:28   Literal cash in a debit card account that you,

01:55:30   if you choose to, you can just transfer at no fee

01:55:33   right to your checking account

01:55:35   or whatever else you have hooked up

01:55:36   or send it to your friend.

01:55:37   I can send my friend Dan money and it's just right there from the money I got for buying

01:55:44   stuff with these boosts. So anyway, it's a cool thing to have and again, you don't pay

01:55:50   anything. You sign up, you get your cash account, it's free and then you transfer money to start

01:55:55   funding it free, get the card free and so I still recommend it even though they took

01:56:02   away my beloved coffee shop boost or at least they took it away from applying every single

01:56:07   time, but it's still a cool thing to have.

01:56:09   It's fun.

01:56:11   Cash App is one of those things where among the tech nerd or media Twitter, people don't

01:56:18   really use it that much.

01:56:19   Venmo, especially in New York, is very popular.

01:56:22   Cash App is huge.

01:56:24   The Square said in their earnings last quarter, I think that three and a half million people

01:56:28   were using the cash card alone in the month of June.

01:56:33   That's a lot of people.

01:56:34   I think it's only in America too.

01:56:35   Yeah, I think so too.

01:56:37   huge success. It's one of the top apps. If you look in the app store download rankings,

01:56:41   especially on the weekend, it's always in the top, I don't know, 25 or something like

01:56:45   that. So yeah, because it's got a big success. It's got the built in almost social media

01:56:50   viral effect where of course you're going to get more people who join in like especially

01:56:54   on weekends for the I think that the check sharing thing is just gotta be so it's so

01:56:59   obvious, right? So you go out with a bunch of pals and a couple of you already have the

01:57:03   the cash app. And then you can say, "Oh, what's the cash app?" And they say, "Oh, it's a free

01:57:07   app." And if you do it, then you can send me 15 bucks to square up the meal, no pun

01:57:13   intended. So you can totally see how it spreads. And you can tell people, "Hey, no fees. There

01:57:18   is no fee to sign up, no fee to transfer money, and it's super easy to use." It's actually

01:57:23   a really nicely designed app, in my opinion. There's one or two things that are hidden

01:57:29   behind like you have to like tap your avatar or something like that to get it. It's a little,

01:57:34   but for the most part it's designed for millennials who read with their fingers or something like that.

01:57:40   Yeah, but you know and it and much like apple card it's totally modern and when you buy something you

01:57:46   get a little notification that it was used immediately, which is I love you know because

01:57:53   it gives you that reassurance that if somebody does skim your number or something like that and

01:57:57   And you're as soon as they try, as soon as they use your number to buy something,

01:58:00   you're going to get a notification on your phone that tells you it was used.

01:58:03   Uh, uh, so anyway, I recommend it and all thanks to you.

01:58:07   I had the cash account, but the card, you know, I have to think, I have to thank you.

01:58:11   Yeah, it's cool.

01:58:13   The other funny thing is, uh, it's one of those things where, you know, I

01:58:16   never really see ads for it, but the minute you leave a big city and turn

01:58:20   the radio on somewhere, there's ads ads for cash app all the time on the radio.

01:58:25   Which is kind of funny.

01:58:26   It's like one of those things

01:58:27   where it's a truly mainstream product

01:58:29   that the tech elite just don't really use as much.

01:58:33   - Yeah. - Whatever, good.

01:58:35   - Square's still doing a good job too on the other end,

01:58:37   on the retail end, where I see more and more shops,

01:58:39   where places where I do use Apple Pay,

01:58:43   where they've got the Square readers for doing it,

01:58:48   for doing your transaction.

01:58:52   They've got the cool thing like the La Colombe,

01:58:55   which is my favorite coffee shop here in Center City, Philly.

01:58:58   They've got those ones where it's like two tablets.

01:59:02   And so there's a bigger tablet

01:59:04   that faces the person behind the counter

01:59:06   and a smaller tablet facing the customer

01:59:08   so that they don't have to,

01:59:09   like a lot of the iPad-based point of sale things

01:59:12   where there's just the one iPad,

01:59:14   they have to pivot it around for you to see it

01:59:17   and tap how much of a tip you want or whatever,

01:59:19   which isn't onerous, onerous,

01:59:23   however you pronounce the word,

01:59:25   But the little dual tablet system that the square terminals have is really elegant.

01:59:31   And in my experience, I don't know, it could just be like the placebo effect that I think

01:59:35   that they are good and faster.

01:59:37   To me, they seem to work faster, where the NFC reader is very, very fast with the iPhone

01:59:44   and the transaction goes through faster.

01:59:46   But that could just be my imagination.

01:59:48   Dave Asprey

01:59:50   The first responsive Android tablet in history?

01:59:52   I guess they're Android I guess they have to be because it would be insane if they wrote their own

01:59:56   operating system from scratch scratch, but I see well, maybe

02:00:00   Yeah, it would it would presumably be Android based right at any rate

02:00:05   But with you know with their own complete control over everything that goes into it

02:00:08   It's it is it's very iPad like in terms of responsiveness and accuracy of the touch and stuff like that

02:00:13   Yeah, and the build quality not to be that guy but the build quality seems very nice too. Yeah. Yeah

02:00:19   Yeah, it's a very nice thing. I think square overall is

02:00:22   in some ways it seems

02:00:25   More well, I think I think I think there's good reason for it to square of the two Jack Dorsey companies seems the more Jack Dorsey

02:00:33   Whereas Twitter went through so many weird

02:00:37   total upheavals where Dorsey was out and

02:00:41   They brought in dick and there was the times when

02:00:48   What's-his-name was the CEO?

02:00:50   the medium guy

02:00:52   have Williams Williams was you know, they they and then Ev was in and then he was out and then dick was gone and Jack is

02:00:58   back and and

02:01:00   Twitter is such a weird mishmash

02:01:02   Of everything, you know like I in my opinion. No one would look at Twitter's stuff and think that's a really elegant design

02:01:10   It's not bad. It's not ugly, but it's there's a lot of complex stuff. Whereas everything from Square is

02:01:16   Very very tidy in my experience from their hardware to their apps

02:01:21   It's a company. I really admire. Yeah

02:01:25   Anything else I

02:01:29   Think we've run the gamut there. Yeah, I don't expect anything else from the event. I know that there's Mac stuff coming

02:01:36   I don't expect them to do it. I think that the whole event will be

02:01:39   phones watches and

02:01:42   services. Some wacky thing happened this week where people are like, Oh, AR glasses. Now.

02:01:47   I also wouldn't be surprised if the tile tracker thing isn't in next week's event that it's just

02:01:55   could be but I you know, I don't know. I just feel like I feel like the phones, watches and

02:02:03   services alone would be enough to fill the event and then why dilute it with further stuff.

02:02:09   Right? Have there been hardware leaks of that or anything like that? Or is it just the software?

02:02:14   Just the software, I think. And the only hardware that's leaked is the diagrams of the things,

02:02:20   the little circles that are in the software, you know, that if you talk about the iOS 13 beta,

02:02:24   there's things that suggest it's like a little like a coin type thing with an apple logo in the

02:02:29   middle. So I know they've probably learned their lesson. But this could this be one of those things

02:02:34   where they're like, "And we're working on these little taggers."

02:02:39   No, I hope not. I think that they've learned a lesson. I've heard—I've actually,

02:02:43   you know, you're referencing AirPower and that they announced that prematurely. I've heard—

02:02:47   I mean, AirPods too were delayed quite a bit after the initial announcement.

02:02:51   But I don't think that they regret it. I think that they announced—I feel like they wished they—because

02:02:57   they did come out before Christmas, so I feel like that's as late as they could come out.

02:03:01   Like the day before, but yeah.

02:03:03   Right. But I kind of feel like they needed to announce, you know, like they needed to be

02:03:09   announced with the phones that dropped the headphone jack.

02:03:13   Totally. Yeah.

02:03:13   Yeah. So I don't think they regret it. I know from talking to several people at Apple that

02:03:18   there's a real, it's not just, "Hey, we screwed up with AirPower." It was, "This was screw up

02:03:27   in terms of gambling on a product that we didn't know we could build yet."

02:03:32   Yeah, you know, man, I still want it. But yeah, so yeah, I could, I don't know the,

02:03:39   because the hardware is the stuff that often is the thing that leaks, which is crazy. So

02:03:45   I don't know. I don't, I'm not sure what a, when a better time to, I guess when it's ready

02:03:51   is the right answer, but I'm not sure when a better time to roll that out would be,

02:03:55   do you think there'll be new AirPods? No, I don't. I think because I think these second

02:04:00   generation ones just came out. And I know that there are some rumors. I know Gurman

02:04:04   said that they're working on future ones, but I can't imagine that they would come

02:04:07   out before Christmas. I really don't. I think that would be a next year thing.

02:04:11   Cool. All right, then it sounds like a pretty simple thing. I guess the HomePod is the one

02:04:18   thing that seems like there would be a hardware leak from that too if there was something

02:04:24   new.

02:04:25   Well, there's a rumor that they're coming out with one with only two tweeters instead

02:04:28   of seven, which I was talking to Jim Dalrymple about it. He's a bigger music guy than me,

02:04:34   but I can only imagine that that would be a new lower cost HomePod in addition to the

02:04:41   existing HomePod because I just can't see the HomePod. The whole appeal of the HomePod

02:04:44   is how good it sounds. No matter how smart it is, there's no way a two-tweeter one could

02:04:49   be better than the seven-tweeter ones. So I don't know. That would be cool. But again,

02:04:53   I don't expect it. I would expect that later, you know that like an October event like yeah in October next year

02:04:58   Yeah, but like even if all that stuff's ready like the October events are always a little bit lower key in

02:05:05   Every regard and they they can therefore jump around more and say here's the new Mac. Here's the Mac Pro

02:05:12   We promised at WWDC and here's a new MacBook Pro 16 inch size

02:05:16   That's like this and here's the tile tracker and we've got two new iPad pros and you know

02:05:22   and jump around and do that. Whereas the September one, I feel like they don't want to cram a lot of

02:05:27   stuff in there. And the services narrative is so important to them in terms of the story that

02:05:36   they're selling to Wall Street that I'd be shocked. I would be absolutely shocked if they

02:05:43   don't unveil all of the details for the services they announced back in March on Tuesday,

02:05:50   including pricing, including dates, and doing that at their highest profile event of the

02:05:58   year, they're going to want to distract from that as little as possible. And therefore,

02:06:02   the only other thing I expect would be the phones and the watches.

02:06:07   Makes sense.

02:06:08   That's what I think. But, you know, who knows? I had one more idea, but I forgot it. Yeah,

02:06:16   Yeah, it probably wasn't good. Anyway, Dan Fromer, thank you. So the new consumer is

02:06:26   at newconsumer.com. Excellent newsletter. I enjoy every single issue of it. I feel like

02:06:33   also I enjoy the pace. If I want to complain, you know, we were Pat and Ben Thompson on

02:06:38   the back. I sometimes can't keep up with Stratechery. Not because I feel like he's writing needless

02:06:44   words, but because he writes too many good words. Whereas I really enjoy the couple times

02:06:49   a week pace of the new consumer.

02:06:51   Tom Bilyeu (01h00): Thank you. Yeah. And if you care about e-commerce

02:06:56   or consumer brands or marketing or just the future, give it a shot. NewConsumer.com.

02:07:00   Jay Famiglietti (01h00): Yeah. I really enjoy it. And people can follow

02:07:04   you on Twitter. You're an excellent Twitter follower @fromdome, F-R-O-M-E-D-O-M-E on Twitter.

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02:07:16   to thank them at the end of the show. I'll go backwards. Eero, where you can go to get

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