The Talk Show

261: ‘Contact Heineken’ With Jim Dalrymple


00:00:00   (both laughing)

00:00:02   I had never seen "Blazing Saddles"

00:00:06   and I had never seen "Caddyshack."

00:00:09   And a friend of mine, every Friday,

00:00:12   I go out for a beer at this German beer house

00:00:15   in Redwood City with a couple of my friends.

00:00:18   So they were sitting down making references to these movies.

00:00:22   And I said, "I don't know what you're talking about."

00:00:25   And he said, "Well, it's 'Caddyshack'

00:00:26   and it's 'Blazing Saddles.'"

00:00:28   I said, yeah, never seen them.

00:00:30   And they were so upset.

00:00:32   They said, you Canadians, you don't know anything.

00:00:35   He said, we're coming over tomorrow

00:00:37   and we're gonna watch.

00:00:38   And they did, they came over, we grilled up some food

00:00:43   and sat down and watched both of the movies.

00:00:45   And they would never be able to make "Blazing Saddles" today.

00:00:49   Never. - No.

00:00:50   - Well, I was stunned by it.

00:00:52   - You know, by pure coincidence, unplanned,

00:00:55   I got a new T-shirt this summer,

00:00:57   new novelty t shirt. It's it's it's you ever heard of Callaway

00:01:01   golf? It's like, you know, so it's it's like a written in the

00:01:05   font and the logo like Callaway golf, but instead of saying

00:01:08   Callaway it says Gunga Gunga. Which of course is is what the

00:01:15   Dalai Lama told Carl the groundskeeper after stepping

00:01:19   them on it. You know, you get total enlightenment. So I've got

00:01:22   that going for me. Well,

00:01:25   - I'm not going for you.

00:01:27   Yeah, amazing, amazing movies.

00:01:30   - The other one you probably haven't seen is The Producers.

00:01:33   Have you seen The Producers?

00:01:34   - I have not.

00:01:35   - So that's Mel Brooks's, I forget,

00:01:38   I think it was made in like 1967, it was on Broadway.

00:01:41   Then it came back on Broadway.

00:01:42   Anyway, I was watching Jerry Seinfeld's Comedians in Cars

00:01:46   getting coffee and Matthew Broderick was his guest

00:01:51   and Matthew Broderick starred on the,

00:01:54   I forget if it was 10 years ago or when they went back on Broadway, starred in it. And

00:02:00   they were talking about how that movie could never be made again now. So the basic gist

00:02:06   is it's been a while since I saw it. But basically, there's two producers on Broadway

00:02:14   who want to make a failure. And so they, I forget why, but they have some kind of financial

00:02:20   incentive to make a bomb. And so they make a musical about Nazi Germany.

00:02:28   Oh my gosh, and it turns into it accidentally turns into a hit. And so

00:02:34   it's basically a comedy about Hitler that they made in like Seinfeld said,

00:02:40   like, that was only like 20 years after the end of World War Two. And they're

00:02:45   they're making a comedy about Hitler. Like that would be like today,

00:02:50   roughly making a comedy about nine 11. Yeah. I mean,

00:02:54   it's not quite 20 years since nine 11, but you know, it's in the ballpark.

00:02:57   Like a comedy about nine 11 would not fly today. It just wouldn't, would not fly.

00:03:02   Right. And whereas people just had a,

00:03:04   sort of a stiffer backbone back then and they could, they could take a joke.

00:03:08   Well, I mean, these were some pretty harsh strokes.

00:03:12   If you like blazing saddles, if you like blazing saddles,

00:03:15   I'm telling you right now, you should, you should like load up on Mel Brooks movies,

00:03:19   but I totally recommend that the produce the producers. Okay.

00:03:23   I think the movie version has, it's somewhat, I don't know, just, just,

00:03:27   just rent it. You're going to love it.

00:03:29   These guys were, were literally, they were,

00:03:32   they were saying the lines as the people were saying the lines in the movie and,

00:03:36   and then just like almost falling off the coach. They were laughing so hard.

00:03:42   And you know, I'm hearing them for the first time.

00:03:44   So I was laughing, but not like they were.

00:03:46   - Yeah.

00:03:47   - So I find it so, I find it-

00:03:48   - I don't understand people that talk in movie lingo anyway.

00:03:53   - I find it so hard to believe

00:03:55   you never saw "Caddyshack" of all movies.

00:03:57   - Caddyshack. - You never saw it.

00:03:59   - I can't believe it.

00:04:00   Anyway, Jim, it's good to talk to you again.

00:04:04   I guess you haven't been on my show in a while.

00:04:05   I know I was on your show at WWDC.

00:04:09   Good to talk to you again.

00:04:10   - Yeah, that was fun.

00:04:11   - Summer going?

00:04:12   - Summer is going very well.

00:04:13   It's been pretty quiet to be honest,

00:04:17   but I kind of liked that.

00:04:18   I took some time.

00:04:21   So a friend of mine has a cabin,

00:04:25   I put that in air quotes, in Tahoe.

00:04:30   So he invited me up and said,

00:04:34   "Do you wanna come to my cabin?"

00:04:36   And I thought, "Geez, okay,

00:04:39   I'm gonna sleep on the floor, you know,

00:04:41   you don't wanna ask.

00:04:42   So I said, okay, fine, you know, let's go.

00:04:46   And then I found out that he invited like 10 other guys

00:04:50   from the bar that we all go to.

00:04:52   And I thought, wow, I mean, what the hell is going on?

00:04:57   So we all hopped, you know, we had several different cars,

00:05:00   we all hop in cars and we go up for like--

00:05:03   That's about a three hour drive as I recall.

00:05:05   Yeah, a little bit more.

00:05:08   But we all hopped in cars and we had this convoy going up

00:05:12   to his quote unquote cabin.

00:05:15   So I arrived to this mansion.

00:05:17   And it's on the water on Lake Tahoe, this gigantic house.

00:05:24   And here I was worried about gourmet kitchen,

00:05:30   all of this kind of stuff.

00:05:32   And then he had just bought a new boat.

00:05:35   So we went out, you know, wake surfing and I didn't,

00:05:39   but they did.

00:05:41   I sat at the back of the boat to give them lots of weight

00:05:43   on the back so that they had better waves back there.

00:05:48   - And then slowly but surely reduce the weight

00:05:50   as you went.

00:05:51   (laughing)

00:05:54   - It was fun, it was a lot of fun, but--

00:05:56   - Actually, now that I think about it,

00:05:58   as you empty Heinekens,

00:05:59   you're not really reducing the weight,

00:06:01   you're just transferring the weight from the bottles.

00:06:03   - Yeah, well, we had lots of Heineken on there too.

00:06:06   So everybody had a good laugh at the look on my face

00:06:10   when we arrived on their house.

00:06:11   'Cause of course they all knew

00:06:12   'cause they had been there before,

00:06:15   but they had a good laugh at me.

00:06:17   - Worried that you were gonna be sleeping

00:06:19   on splintered boards.

00:06:22   - Right, yeah.

00:06:23   No, it wasn't like that at all.

00:06:24   Everybody had a room and it was, yeah, it was nice.

00:06:29   - I've been to Tahoe. - How about you?

00:06:30   How was your summer?

00:06:31   - Good, good.

00:06:32   That's all I'll say. It's been fine. Jonas is still here. Jonas's school doesn't start

00:06:40   up till after Labor Day. I don't get it. I know that all around the country, it's

00:06:44   like his school is obviously an aberration. It's like a lot of kids are back in school

00:06:48   already. I don't get that. Call me a traditionalist. I don't think school should start till after

00:06:54   Labor Day. And I don't get it either because these schools, like my sister's kids started

00:06:58   school last week, and they still they don't get out till June anyway. They still don't

00:07:02   get out till June. So I don't even understand it.

00:07:04   We always started in Canada. We always started after Labor Day.

00:07:08   Yeah, after Labor Day. I don't I don't get it. I'm against it.

00:07:11   If, if I were running for president, that would be one of

00:07:14   my campaign points. No school till after.

00:07:18   I agree with you. Tuesday after Labor Day, you wait till Labor

00:07:23   Day, and then the next day you go back to school. Right? Boom.

00:07:26   And and then you have a holiday short week, this shit going into

00:07:31   school in August. That's that. That's nonsense. Anyway, well,

00:07:34   if they were going to do something like that, I could see

00:07:37   that in the the East Coast where there's snow and you have snow

00:07:42   days and you make up for some of that. But they do that in

00:07:46   California. They go exactly. What kind of days do they have?

00:07:50   I don't know. It's snow days. I don't get it. Although you would

00:07:54   think it by looking at the way that people dress in California.

00:07:57   I mean, I walk outside here and people are in big winter coats and hats and mitts and I'm in a t-shirt

00:08:04   Yeah, we go to Disney, you know a couple times a year and we've already we've gone in December down in Orlando

00:08:10   and it's comical because

00:08:12   You go in December maybe I think we've gone in January - you know

00:08:18   It's a bit in the winter and they have like all the Christmas decorations up

00:08:21   It looks real nice and it you know, it gets down to like the the 50s at night and you know

00:08:27   It's like sixties in the daytime.

00:08:28   And we're like luxuriating.

00:08:31   We're like a break from the East coast.

00:08:34   And we're like wearing shorts.

00:08:35   Maybe you have like a hoodie on or something,

00:08:37   but I'm wearing shorts and you get there

00:08:39   and there's like the employees who live there year round,

00:08:42   they've got like parkas on.

00:08:43   - Yeah, they're trying to put you inside by a fire.

00:08:49   No, I'm gonna sit outside.

00:08:51   - Yeah, they've got like a parka

00:08:52   and they're like rubbing their arms.

00:08:53   It's like, you can't take,

00:08:55   Like once you go to a good climate, you lose it.

00:08:57   Your blood loses its ability to take the 50s.

00:09:01   - It's true.

00:09:03   - Do you ever hear of a place called Snap Kitchen, Jim?

00:09:05   - No.

00:09:06   - I don't know how widespread or how national.

00:09:08   It's a chain.

00:09:09   We've got one here in Philadelphia.

00:09:11   I'm in love with the place.

00:09:12   So what you do is you go into Snap Kitchen.

00:09:14   This is not a sponsor.

00:09:15   I'm just doing this just as a testimonial.

00:09:20   So you go into Snap Kitchen

00:09:22   and they've got like pre-made meals,

00:09:25   but they're not frozen, they're just like refrigerated.

00:09:28   So you gotta cook them up within like two or three days.

00:09:31   But they tell you exactly how many calories are in them.

00:09:34   So I think it's popular with people

00:09:35   who are like calorie counting.

00:09:36   Like they'll tell you it's exactly 390 calories

00:09:39   or something like that.

00:09:41   But it's really good.

00:09:42   And I have fallen in love.

00:09:45   I'm not a big breakfast eater.

00:09:46   Are you a breakfast eater?

00:09:48   - Not so, I mean, more coffee for me.

00:09:50   - Yeah, me too. - I just have a coffee

00:09:52   - But I like something.

00:09:54   And they've got this thing I have fallen in love with.

00:09:57   They call them red pepper egg bites.

00:10:00   Two little egg, two little, almost like, I don't know,

00:10:03   I guess they put them in like little,

00:10:05   almost like a, they must cook them in like a little,

00:10:07   like a cupcake type thing.

00:10:10   You know?

00:10:11   - Are they like hard boiled eggs?

00:10:12   - Yeah, no, no, no.

00:10:13   They're two little puffs about the size of a golf ball each,

00:10:16   speaking of Caddyshack.

00:10:18   Two little things about the size of a golf ball.

00:10:21   The only, there's only three ingredients, eggs,

00:10:23   red peppers, and onions.

00:10:26   Sort of like a scrambled egg with red peppers and onions.

00:10:29   Two of them, 90 calories.

00:10:32   So it's not a lot of food, but this,

00:10:34   that's like my breakfast.

00:10:35   Like I eat 90 calories and I'm full.

00:10:37   Put them into microwave for 30 seconds.

00:10:39   They're perfect, they're nice and hot.

00:10:41   They taste like something that was just freshly cooked.

00:10:44   I am addicted to these things.

00:10:46   I love this place.

00:10:47   And they have all sorts of other food,

00:10:48   like all sorts of meals throughout the day.

00:10:50   But man, I love the place.

00:10:52   Snap Kitchen.

00:10:53   - Red devil egg.

00:10:56   - Red pepper eggs.

00:10:58   No, what do they call them?

00:10:59   I just, I had it.

00:11:00   Red pepper eggs.

00:11:01   I don't know.

00:11:02   Anyway, anybody out there has a Snap Kitchen nearby,

00:11:05   I recommend you go in there and try it

00:11:06   and just look around.

00:11:08   Snap Kitchen.

00:11:09   - These are chefs that just cook up,

00:11:12   you order different meals?

00:11:13   - No, no, they're all pre-made.

00:11:15   You walk in and they're all on shelves.

00:11:17   You know what I mean?

00:11:18   It's all pre-packaged, like in a little cardboard container, you know, with like a thing on top. It's all, you know, not chefs. It's, but you know, it's, I've never really seen anything like it. It's not really a grocery store, because they don't really have other things. It's actually pretty small square footage. But it's just all of these pre-made meals, but they're not frozen. You know, it's, you know, the sort of stuff you would expect to be frozen. But instead of being frozen, it's all relatively fresh. And therefore you have to, you know, and you know, everything has a little sticker on it, like, you know, eat this by

00:11:48   August 27th or whatever the hell the day will be. But anyway, these red pepper egg bites, amazing.

00:11:54   They have a couple things for breakfast that I really like. They've got like a sausage and

00:11:58   egg thing. But I get that. See, when I get that, I don't need it for breakfast, though. I'll eat

00:12:03   that like as like a late lunch or something like that. Because it's more food.

00:12:09   Tom: I could definitely go for the breakfast sandwich. I'm gonna do something.

00:12:16   Oh, and they do have a breakfast sandwich and they're trying to be healthy.

00:12:20   So they've got some stuff like a lot of the stuff is made with Turkey instead of pork,

00:12:26   you know what I mean?

00:12:27   Like turkey bacon or turkey sausage or something like that.

00:12:29   And they've got, you know, it's mixed and matched.

00:12:33   But what else do they do?

00:12:36   They've got like a sausage sandwich where the biscuit is made at least partially with

00:12:41   cauliflower.

00:12:43   But it doesn't really, you know, I like cauliflower.

00:12:45   cauliflower doesn't really have a taste in my opinion.

00:12:47   I know what you mean, but it doesn't taste like that though.

00:12:51   It's just tastes like a biscuit.

00:12:54   - You know what gets me is when I go to somebody's house

00:12:58   for supper and I think that there's mashed potatoes.

00:13:03   When I get it to the table, it's not, it's cauliflower.

00:13:07   Like, come on, don't trick me.

00:13:09   Don't try and trick me.

00:13:10   And now I've got a plate full of cauliflower

00:13:13   when I thought they were mashed potatoes.

00:13:15   That's just wrong. That's wrong to do to somebody.

00:13:18   Did you, uh, did you see net news wire five shipped? I did.

00:13:23   Very high. I love that news wire five years in the making. Yeah.

00:13:28   I think it's, you know,

00:13:29   that's one of those apps that we've all used and for a long time,

00:13:34   like BB edit, you know, we have just, we've all used it. Yeah.

00:13:38   But the difference is so BB edit has been on a

00:13:43   steady course nonstop since 1991 or 92 or so. And as you know, under Rich Segal's, you know,

00:13:53   development and his colleague from the beginning, Patrick Woolsey, and others, but you know,

00:14:02   Rich and Patrick have been a team literally since 1992 and have never really looked up.

00:14:09   Net News Wire has sort of had a, I wouldn't say Rocky, but a tumultuous, tumultuous would be the

00:14:17   word history where my dear friend, my good friend, Brent Simmons developed it. I think it launched

00:14:23   17 years ago. Yeah, it was like 2002. Same year that Daring Fireball launched and became a hit.

00:14:35   It was a commercial product. I think he sold it for $20 or $25. Support became his full-time

00:14:43   job and then—I forget when he sold it, but at some point, 7, 8 years in, he sold it and

00:14:51   went to work for the company that bought it and then moved on to other things within the

00:14:57   company doing sort of a slack-like thing called Glassboard for them. I don't know if you

00:15:04   remember Glassboard, but it's pretty useful. I still miss it in some ways compared to Slack.

00:15:12   And then they sold it to BlackPixel, sort of a well-known Mac developers, iOS developers,

00:15:20   but their bread and butter is consulting work. And so NetNewswire sort of fell by the wayside

00:15:30   under their ownership. And then Brent, five years ago, started working on a new RSS reader

00:15:38   on his own on the side. He now, you know, Brent, Brent and I, you know, worked for a

00:15:43   while together on on Vesper with our friend Dave Whiskas. And then I guess after that,

00:15:50   it was after Vesper, you know, sort of ceased development that he started working, what

00:15:56   call evergreen was what he was calling it. His new RSS reader just because, you know,

00:16:03   he just he just realized, I mean, I don't want to put words in Brent's mouth, I should probably

00:16:06   have him on the show. But basically, you know, in his bones, he still loved RSS still wanted

00:16:12   still felt like there wasn't a Mac RSS reader that did things the way he wanted it to be done.

00:16:18   And instead of doing it commercially, because now Brent works at the Omni group. But not as a

00:16:24   developer. He's like head of product marketing and does sort of developer relations. And then on the

00:16:30   side to scratch his development itch, as it was, had been developing this RSS reader open source.

00:16:35   And then about a year ago, BlackPixel, he and BlackPixel negotiated and BlackPixel was like,

00:16:44   you know what, here, we're not doing anything with it. Take the net newswire name back and

00:16:49   and effectively just gave it to Brent,

00:16:52   which I think was very cool.

00:16:54   - That's classy.

00:16:55   - Yeah, and I think it sort of speaks to the way

00:16:58   the Apple developer community has always worked,

00:17:03   where there's sort of a lot of stuff

00:17:05   just gets done with a handshake

00:17:06   and just full of good people.

00:17:09   But it's right, you know what I mean?

00:17:11   Like it just fits this app like a glove.

00:17:13   Like this is where NetNewswire should be in 2019.

00:17:18   And Brent, I love him to death.

00:17:22   He's a great developer and a very dear friend,

00:17:25   but he's got some very funny ideas

00:17:27   about what alpha and beta mean.

00:17:31   (laughing)

00:17:33   Like, and then lots of developers do.

00:17:35   I sort of feel like Apple has sort of the,

00:17:41   Apple's take on what's beta is sort of canonical.

00:17:47   like beta is buggy and features come and go.

00:17:51   You know, like since WWDC,

00:17:54   there've been new features that have been added

00:17:56   to the iOS and macOS betas.

00:17:59   And there are a lot of bugs in June and July.

00:18:03   It feels, you know, I'm gonna get into it on this show.

00:18:05   We have other things to talk about,

00:18:06   but it feels like as of mid August,

00:18:10   the latest beta, at least for iOS,

00:18:12   has really, really taken a step up towards shipability

00:18:16   in terms of cursing a lot of bugs.

00:18:18   'Cause I've got it, I still don't have it on my main phone,

00:18:21   but I've got it on my year old iPhone 10.

00:18:24   And a lot of the problems I was seeing before are gone.

00:18:28   You know, that's beta.

00:18:29   But in Brent's mind, that's alpha.

00:18:32   Everything, what most people consider beta is alpha.

00:18:35   And what he considers beta is feature complete.

00:18:38   (laughing)

00:18:40   And that the only things missing

00:18:41   are things like documentation.

00:18:43   So it's been in beta for a while,

00:18:45   but the NetNewswire 5 betas were more stable

00:18:50   and more reliable than most non-beta software.

00:18:57   But anyway, as of today, August 26th, it is shipped.

00:19:02   It is non-beta and I couldn't be happier for him.

00:19:06   And I just have to write about it on Daring Fireball.

00:19:09   I just feel like I wanna hold this up as the,

00:19:12   This is what a modern Mac app should be in 2019.

00:19:16   It looks modern.

00:19:17   It just looks everything like what a Mac app today

00:19:22   should look like.

00:19:23   It's scriptable.

00:19:24   It has a full help book.

00:19:27   So you go to the help menu.

00:19:28   You ever go to the help menu in a Mac app

00:19:31   and you're like, I wanna look this up.

00:19:32   And you go, and there is a help menu

00:19:33   and you go help for this app.

00:19:35   And then you get a dialogue box that say,

00:19:37   help is not available for this app.

00:19:39   (laughing)

00:19:41   You know what I mean?

00:19:42   It's like, why even have the menu item?

00:19:47   Just to fucking delete the menu, you know what I mean?

00:19:49   But he's got a full help book.

00:19:51   Like I said, it's scriptable.

00:19:52   There's all sorts of features he wants to add.

00:19:56   I know the number one thing is that for syncing

00:19:59   between other feed readers,

00:20:01   'cause there's no companion iOS app,

00:20:03   he's only, right now NetNewswire only syncs

00:20:06   to a service called Feedbin, which actually--

00:20:09   - That's the one I use.

00:20:10   - Well, and I would have voted for Feedbin.

00:20:13   I didn't get a vote, but that is actually,

00:20:15   it's an outstanding sync service.

00:20:17   I forget what you pay for it.

00:20:18   It's a very, very reasonable cost.

00:20:20   - Oh yeah, it's cheap, yeah.

00:20:21   - Very reasonable, super reliable.

00:20:24   But having third-party sync services for RSS,

00:20:28   it's very similar to email, right?

00:20:31   Where it doesn't really matter who your email provider is.

00:20:34   You can use whatever email client you want

00:20:37   and you just give your credentials and your email comes in.

00:20:40   That's what feed reading has sort of evolved to.

00:20:42   It wasn't like that 17 years ago.

00:20:44   - No.

00:20:45   - But now it is, but if you have a Feedbin account,

00:20:49   and you want to also read your RSS feeds,

00:20:52   same feeds on your iPad and your iPhone,

00:20:55   all you need is any of the various RSS readers

00:20:58   that support Feedbin on those platforms.

00:21:00   Use the same credentials and you can do it.

00:21:02   And it just feels like net news wire.

00:21:06   It's fast, super fast, everything's snappy.

00:21:09   you can use the arrow keys on your keyboard to move around, which is to me,

00:21:13   like it just defines the art, you know, the, the net news wire experience.

00:21:17   It it's really been years since there was an RSS

00:21:23   reader that felt like net news wire. And honestly, in that interim, I sort of,

00:21:27   I never completely stopped using RSS,

00:21:30   but I was using net news wire three, the last version Brent developed.

00:21:36   I mean, no offense to the black pixel folk.

00:21:38   I don't, although I guess it is slightly offensive.

00:21:42   I just never liked their version of NetNewswire.

00:21:45   It just didn't feel right to me.

00:21:46   So I just stuck with NetNewswire 3.32 or something.

00:21:51   And it really started looking dated.

00:21:53   You know what I mean?

00:21:53   It just looked like a 20 2009 app.

00:21:58   It just had the wrong style icons.

00:21:59   And I'm not super picky about stuff like that,

00:22:03   but it just grows on you.

00:22:05   So I kind of faded away from RSS.

00:22:07   But now that NetNewswire's back, I'm back reading RSS

00:22:10   and I couldn't be happier about it.

00:22:12   - Well, it's funny 'cause Brent pinged me

00:22:14   a little while ago and said,

00:22:15   "Hey, your icon doesn't look right in NetNewswire.

00:22:19   It looks too small."

00:22:23   And he did ping me about it

00:22:26   and I forgot to do anything about it, so unfortunately.

00:22:31   I don't know if he took it out or if he actually--

00:22:36   - Basted or something.

00:22:37   - Yeah, left it in there or what, but Brent,

00:22:40   hey, sorry, man, I will do it, I will do it.

00:22:44   - All right, let me take a break here

00:22:45   and thank our first sponsor,

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00:24:43   They've got mattress engineers here dedicated to helping us sleep better right

00:24:46   here in the USA, making these mattresses.

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00:25:33   sleep on a really nice hotel mattress, go home and think my mattress was cruddy.

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00:25:42   and I'm delighted to be back in my Casper mattress. That's how good it is.

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00:25:49   Here's a special offer for listeners to the show.

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00:26:00   And remember that code talk show at checkout.

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00:26:07   talk show terms and conditions apply.

00:26:09   I don't know what those terms and conditions are, but they do apply.

00:26:12   Now we can get to the, we get to the meat of the show. All right.

00:26:19   How about apple card? Apple card is now available widespread.

00:26:23   Did you get an Apple card?

00:26:25   - I do not have one yet.

00:26:27   And it's kind of funny for me because I will get one.

00:26:31   I will get one eventually.

00:26:32   But since I moved here,

00:26:35   I've basically done everything

00:26:41   that I do in California with cash.

00:26:44   Most of what I do is in cash.

00:26:49   So getting a credit card, it's not a big deal,

00:26:54   but then I start to think about it and think,

00:26:58   well, I've done everything in cash.

00:27:01   Do I need a credit card?

00:27:03   Do I want a credit card?

00:27:05   So it's just one of those things

00:27:06   where I haven't really decided what I wanna do yet.

00:27:10   - So I got one, I signed up for one.

00:27:13   Now the press, some of the people in the press,

00:27:15   including yours truly, were invited to get one early, you know, in a way that if you

00:27:21   if you people outside the press also got them early, where if you when they first announced

00:27:26   it, I don't know when earlier in the year, you could sign up at apple.com and say notify

00:27:32   me, you know, as soon as he can. And I have a couple of friends, you know, who got the

00:27:36   notification like, hey, you can sign up, you know, now before it's widespread availability.

00:27:43   I waited partially out of apathy, for lack of a better word,

00:27:48   and partially because I sort of wanted

00:27:53   the regular experience, like the typical,

00:27:57   I don't want a special experience.

00:28:01   And I think it makes sense.

00:28:03   A credit card is a very strange product for Apple.

00:28:06   Like they come out with, let's say, a new MacBook Pro,

00:28:11   and members of the media like me or you,

00:28:14   they might loan us one for two months

00:28:17   and it's a review unit and they just,

00:28:20   you sign an NDA and you sign an agreement

00:28:22   that you're gonna keep this for eight weeks

00:28:24   and then mail it back to them

00:28:26   and then you're using it for review purposes

00:28:28   and if there's an embargo because it's not out for 10 days,

00:28:33   you agree not to write about it until such and such date

00:28:37   when the embargo left, blah, blah, blah.

00:28:40   they don't, they didn't do anything funny like that with the credit card.

00:28:43   Like nobody in the media got like a review credit card loaded up with,

00:28:48   you know, $100 of Apple money or something like that to test. Well, I mean,

00:28:54   they could have, but you know, but because it's a credit card,

00:28:57   I think it's weird.

00:28:58   So anybody in the media who got one and wrote about it,

00:29:00   put it on their own name using their own credit and, and you know,

00:29:04   whatever limit they got, you know,

00:29:06   was what Goldman Sachs looking at your credit history got. So there's, you know,

00:29:10   Nothing funny like that.

00:29:11   And I think that makes sense.

00:29:14   - So do I.

00:29:16   - I don't think it would be right to,

00:29:18   it would just be fishy if they were giving people

00:29:21   in the media money to spend.

00:29:23   - Yes.

00:29:24   - So I waited until, I forget what day it was last week,

00:29:29   when it was like, okay, our Apple card

00:29:32   is now available to everybody.

00:29:33   And so I went into, you go to the Wallet app,

00:29:37   you hit the plus button, and it's like,

00:29:39   if you wanna sign up for Apple Card, and I said yes.

00:29:42   And I have to say that signup process is truly outstanding.

00:29:48   It really is very, very smooth and very, very fast.

00:29:53   And it auto-fills an awful lot of the stuff

00:30:00   because your phone already knows your first name

00:30:03   and your last name.

00:30:04   It auto-filled my phone number

00:30:06   because I was doing it on the phone.

00:30:08   So, just about anything that could be autofilled was autofilled. The only thing I think it

00:30:15   didn't autofill was my—you have to tell them what your income is. So, my phone doesn't

00:30:22   know that, so I typed that in. But they're very clear. They say in very clear words that

00:30:26   Apple does not receive that information. That only goes to Goldman Sachs and whatever. They

00:30:32   to I guess look at that. And then you hit okay and it spun for a little bit and it gave

00:30:40   you know, said, you know, waiting I forget, you know, and then boom, you know, it's like,

00:30:45   okay, you're approved. Here's your apple card. There it is. It's in your wallet. You could

00:30:48   go use it. You know, I don't know. 15 seconds, 20 seconds, something like that. Yeah, I was

00:30:54   there with my girlfriend when she wanted one and it was out. So I showed her where to go on the

00:31:04   wallet to get it. She went in, pressed a couple of buttons and all of a sudden it was back. I

00:31:11   bet you the whole process didn't take more than a minute, minute and a half.

00:31:15   - I agree. Yeah, same for me.

00:31:17   - It was back in her wallet and they said, "Yeah, here you go."

00:31:20   - There you go.

00:31:21   - Now, here's my question to you.

00:31:23   With your girlfriend, after she got approved,

00:31:27   was she prompted to use her Apple card

00:31:31   for all Apple purchases?

00:31:33   - Oh, I don't know.

00:31:36   - Some of my friends say they were, that they--

00:31:39   - I don't think she was.

00:31:40   She was prompted to get a card,

00:31:43   but I don't think she was prompted to use the card.

00:31:46   - So one of the reasons, one of the main reasons

00:31:49   I wanted the card, partially curiosity,

00:31:52   but partially the 3% cash back on Apple purchases,

00:31:57   which applies to everything.

00:31:58   It applies to buying hardware,

00:32:00   it applies to iTunes and App Store purchases,

00:32:03   anything you buy from Apple, if you use your Apple card,

00:32:05   you get 3% cash back, which beats any other card

00:32:10   that I have in terms of rewards.

00:32:12   So it makes sense to switch everything over.

00:32:17   So one of the first things I wanted to do after I was approved for the card was switch

00:32:22   my iTunes and App Store account to use this card instead of my Amex, which I'd been

00:32:28   using for years, and to switch my store account saved card to use the Apple card.

00:32:36   So that, you know, I mean, you could obviously enter it when I actually go to the online

00:32:40   Apple store and buy something.

00:32:41   I could, you know, obviously enter it then, but when, you know, I expected that to be

00:32:45   be easy. And some of my friends said they were prompted for that, that they just had

00:32:47   a button.

00:32:48   That's a good idea.

00:32:50   Right. And that you can go and they also say that, that they have a button. If you go to

00:32:55   the wallet, once you've added the card, you go to the wallet, you pick your Apple card

00:32:59   and you hit this, that dot, dot, dot button. And like somewhere down, like there's like

00:33:06   a section here for a bank accounts. And then underneath that, there's like a little button

00:33:11   that says, I forget the exact words,

00:33:14   but use Apple Card for all Apple purchases.

00:33:17   And you hit that button and it changes

00:33:19   all of your online accounts to use the Apple Card.

00:33:24   - I'd be good with that.

00:33:26   - I don't have that button,

00:33:27   and I didn't get prompted for it.

00:33:29   - Huh.

00:33:30   - And it's like, this isn't Apple Card's fault.

00:33:35   I think it's Apple's fault, but it's not Apple Card's fault.

00:33:39   Like the Apple card signup process was seamless for me and I got it, but I didn't get prompted

00:33:44   for that. So I thought, well, I'll just change it manually. So I go into wherever you go

00:33:51   and sit. You know, there's a couple, couple paths to get there. You can, cause if you

00:33:55   change, if you change your payment in the app store, app store payments, you know, change

00:33:59   your credit card there. It also changes your iTunes, your iTunes in your app store is the

00:34:04   same thing. So you can go through, you know, to iTunes and then go to payments and change

00:34:08   your credit card and then it'll also change your app store either way. But when I went

00:34:12   there, I only have one credit card. I only had one credit card on my iTunes account and

00:34:19   it was an American Express card that I've had for years. Earlier this year, I forget

00:34:26   how many months, let's say five, four or five months ago, the card was flagged for fraudulent

00:34:33   purchases. Somebody was using it at Home Shopping Network.

00:34:38   And that's not you sitting up in the middle of the night.

00:34:42   No. Well, it's a funny story, Jim. So somebody bought a

00:34:48   curling iron on the Home Shopping Network using my Amex.

00:34:53   And I, the slightly freaky thing about it is it wound up getting

00:34:59   shipped to me as well. And the guy, the name was Frank Browns, not Frank Brown, Frank Browns

00:35:07   with an S, which seems like a made up name. I've never heard of anybody whose last name

00:35:11   is B-R-O-W-N-S. But Amex is a terrific credit card in terms of a lot of these features that

00:35:21   Apple Pay has. Like the Amex app is terrific. It stays up to date. I get notifications of

00:35:29   payments very shortly after they're made. Like if I go to the corner store and buy a six pack of beer,

00:35:35   I'll get a notification that I went to the market and you know, bought, uh, you know, $16,

00:35:41   $16 purchase as I'm walking out the door, you know, um,

00:35:46   mine would ping me and say, why'd you only buy a six pack? Well, anyway, the next day, like,

00:35:53   I don't know when this must have happened at night. The next day, Amy, Amy got, you

00:35:59   know, is on the same Amex account. And she says to me, what were you doing last night?

00:36:04   And I said, nothing. I was watching a movie. And she said, how much did you have to drink?

00:36:11   And I said, no, I mean, you know, like a norm and not a lot. She goes, did you buy something

00:36:15   at home shopping network? And I was like, no. And she's like, are you sure? And I said,

00:36:22   I swear to God, because here's the funny thing is, back in the

00:36:25   day, I used to like watching I never bought anything. But I

00:36:28   used to like watching the Home Shopping Network, like, you know,

00:36:31   like 20 years ago. You know, you know, have a couple beers, you

00:36:36   know, put the home shopping on. I just enjoyed the like the

00:36:41   carnival Barker aspect of it. You know, I mean, like it, like,

00:36:45   it didn't make me want to buy stuff. But I found it

00:36:47   fascinating to watch it, especially like to watch there

00:36:51   there was a big loudmouth guy who used to sell baseball cards, you know, like collector,

00:36:55   you know, like a Pete Rose rookie card and stuff like that. And he'd be screaming at

00:36:59   you, you know, that, you know, you're, if you don't buy this rookie card, you know,

00:37:03   you're, you're, you're doing not just yourself a disservice, you're doing your children a

00:37:07   disservice because this, this card is going to be worth so much money. This is an inheritance,

00:37:13   you know, this is going to discard is going to do nothing but go up, you know, and, and

00:37:16   I just enjoyed watching it. So she knew I used to watch it like 20 years ago and she's

00:37:20   and she was like, give me like, you know, like, like a total like ski VI. Like maybe

00:37:26   I put a load on and bought it, bought something at home, but we didn't know what we bought.

00:37:31   All we saw from Amex was like a $60 charge from home shopping. Next day, ding dong in

00:37:37   a FedEx shows up or UPS or whoever, and there's the box address to Frank Browns, but with

00:37:43   our address and we open it up and it's a goddamn curling iron from home shopping network. You

00:37:49   know, and I had already called, I called Amex the day before and reported, you know, that

00:37:52   it was fraud. So anyway, you know, the card was used for fraud. They said, don't worry

00:37:58   about it. We'll send you a new card. We'll have it. You know, FedEx is great about this.

00:38:01   They literally, they like overnight, it showed up, you know, probably before the curling

00:38:06   iron did. But they told me, they said, you know, we'll get you a new card. You'll have

00:38:11   a new number. But you don't need to change any of your stuff online. Anything you have

00:38:17   saved online will continue to work. And indeed, they were true to their word. I didn't really

00:38:24   log into anything and like my iTunes purchases kept working. You know, my Amazon stuff kept

00:38:29   working. Even though I had a new number, it's like they, you know, I guess the way these

00:38:34   these modern companies do it is they don't just save a stupid 16 digit number. There's

00:38:40   like a handshake that they do, you know, cryptographically secure and that, you know, they've got some

00:38:46   kind of deeper connection than just stupid numbers. Right. But turns out, I don't know

00:38:54   if it was through software updates, or what. On when I went to the payment section on my

00:39:03   my iPhone for iTunes, I had had my Amex,

00:39:08   and it was, like I said, I'd been buying stuff

00:39:10   for months using it, but it said,

00:39:13   "Needs verification," like in red.

00:39:16   And what they wanted me to do was to go in

00:39:18   and enter the CVV number, the secret extra number.

00:39:23   But I couldn't do that because the old card was canceled.

00:39:31   And I, and I, I, I'd thrown it out. So I, I, and I,

00:39:34   I think I remember the old CVV number because I used it so many times,

00:39:39   but I, and if I'm correct, it still wouldn't take it.

00:39:43   And that kind of makes sense because that whole card is invalidated and it

00:39:47   wouldn't take my new number because that's not the same.

00:39:51   They wanted one that ended in, you know,

00:39:53   here's the last four digits of the card and the

00:39:57   verification sheet.

00:40:00   The thing that says we want you to verify this,

00:40:02   for the card ending in these four digits,

00:40:07   with this expiration date, we want your CVV number.

00:40:09   The only field that's editable was the CVV number.

00:40:13   I couldn't type the whole new credit card in.

00:40:16   And I couldn't delete the card and re-add a new card

00:40:23   because it said the,

00:40:26   'cause we have family sharing for iTunes.

00:40:28   And I said, and I'm the family organizer,

00:40:30   the family organizer needs at least one card.

00:40:33   So I was in a total catch 22 situation.

00:40:37   I couldn't, and it wouldn't let me add a new card either,

00:40:42   because it said before I add a new card,

00:40:44   I need to verify the one that needed verification.

00:40:46   So I couldn't-- - Oh man, you're stuck.

00:40:48   - So I couldn't add a new card,

00:40:50   because the other one needed to be verified.

00:40:53   I couldn't verify it,

00:40:54   because the card wouldn't let me edit the whole number,

00:40:58   would only take the old number and I couldn't delete it because I'm the family organizer.

00:41:02   What did you do? Well, I don't know if it was the right thing. I think what I should

00:41:10   have done and I should have done is called Apple and I don't know what number and that's

00:41:17   why I didn't call them because I didn't know what number to call. I mean, I probably could

00:41:22   have Googled it and found it in 20 seconds, but I should have called Apple, but I just

00:41:27   don't like calling people. So what I did is disable family sharing. And then I could delete

00:41:36   the card and I had no cards on my iTunes account and I re-added both my new Amex and my new

00:41:44   Apple card. And then I turned family sharing back on again. But that was probably the wrong

00:41:50   way to do it because it was sort of a pain in the ass where Amy and Jonas had to like

00:41:59   re-agree to everything. When you turn on family sharing, which is a great feature when it's

00:42:06   working, but we had to turn on that we want to share apps, we want to share movies, we

00:42:12   want to share location, we want to share, I forget what else, there's like four or five

00:42:16   things you can share, but you have to turn them all back on. And they both had to re-add it. And

00:42:21   you know what I mean? It's just like a funny notification. It says, I get like a notification,

00:42:25   like five minutes later, it says, Jonas Gruber has joined your family. And it's like,

00:42:34   guess what? We have a son.

00:42:42   Well, I mean, at least you found a way if other people are in this, this predicament, then yeah.

00:42:48   And and then the one the one thing that really stuck with me is that and it was such a pain in

00:42:56   the ass is that the one app for the for the most part, I'm the one who buys lots of apps and I tend

00:43:04   to buy the movies and it seemed like movies weren't a problem like Jonas, I was able to as soon as I

00:43:10   I re-enabled all this.

00:43:12   Movies that have been bought on my account,

00:43:14   he could play and it played with no problem.

00:43:18   But Amy was the one who bought Tweetbot for iOS.

00:43:22   And the reason she bought it instead of me

00:43:24   was that I'm a beta tester for Tweetbot.

00:43:27   And so I was still using the beta for free,

00:43:30   like when Tweetbot 5 shipped and the update came out

00:43:33   and she loves Tweetbot too, so she bought it.

00:43:35   And so ever since when I've been used,

00:43:39   and it's not currently in beta.

00:43:41   There's no, like in TestFlight, there's no beta available.

00:43:44   So I've been using the App Store version.

00:43:45   But when I tried launching Tweetbot on my iPhone,

00:43:49   it said, "You can't use this app

00:43:50   "because it's no longer being shared with you."

00:43:53   And then it said, "You need to go to the App Store

00:43:58   "and purchase it yourself."

00:43:59   Now, Tweetbot's only five bucks, so I don't care.

00:44:03   I honest to God, I love it.

00:44:04   I like supporting independent developers.

00:44:06   I think $5 is too little for an app

00:44:09   that I use as much as tweet bot.

00:44:11   Happy to give them an extra five bucks, really, honestly.

00:44:15   But the problem is I'd go to the app store

00:44:17   and the app store entry for tweet bot didn't say buy,

00:44:22   it said open because it was already on my phone.

00:44:25   So I couldn't buy it.

00:44:28   - So you have to delete it.

00:44:29   - I deleted it and that is true.

00:44:33   I deleted it and then it would say buy.

00:44:35   So you're one step ahead of me.

00:44:37   And then I'd say, buy, and it would do face ID.

00:44:40   And then it would say, you know,

00:44:42   it didn't say congratulations,

00:44:44   but effectively it's like, congratulations,

00:44:46   you don't need to purchase this.

00:44:47   A family member has already bought it.

00:44:49   (laughing)

00:44:51   I swear to God.

00:44:52   And I hit okay.

00:44:53   It downloads and I launch it and it says,

00:44:56   you can't use this app

00:44:58   because it's no longer being shared with you.

00:45:00   So the app store knew that

00:45:05   after having disabled family sharing

00:45:07   and re-enabling family sharing with the same two people,

00:45:11   the app store could properly see

00:45:14   that this was an app that Amy had bought

00:45:17   and she's in my family sharing circle

00:45:19   so I shouldn't need to buy it.

00:45:21   But Springboard, the iPhone launcher,

00:45:24   obviously lost track of--

00:45:27   - Somewhere in there. - Somewhere in there.

00:45:29   Like when I disabled family sharing and then re-enabled it,

00:45:32   it somehow still had Tweetbot.

00:45:36   And the odd thing is that this was true on both of my iPhones

00:45:41   that I'm using.

00:45:42   The one, like I said, I've got the iPhone 10 running the iOS

00:45:45   13 betas.

00:45:46   I've got my iPhone 10s that's running iOS 12.4.

00:45:50   Neither of them could launch it with the exact same problem.

00:45:52   My iPad, though, could launch it just fine.

00:45:55   And I'm not 100% sure if that's because it was still running

00:46:00   and it wasn't really relaunching,

00:46:02   and I was afraid to force quit it

00:46:06   'cause I didn't wanna lose the only device I had

00:46:09   to where it still worked.

00:46:10   And I wound up fixing it,

00:46:13   and I have another iPad too,

00:46:16   I have an iPad Mini where I'm running the iPad beta,

00:46:20   and on that one it was giving me the sharing thing.

00:46:22   And so I wound up fixing this by,

00:46:25   and then I, 'cause I knew I was gonna talk about it

00:46:30   on a podcast for sure. And I might write about it at Daring Fireball. And for the most part,

00:46:35   a lot of the times I don't really contact Apple before I write about stuff, even if

00:46:40   I'm complaining. But this felt like one where I should give them a chance to explain or

00:46:46   figure out what the hell is going on. So I got in contact with Apple PR for Apple Card

00:46:50   and explained everything I've just told you over the last 10 minutes. So it was a very

00:46:55   long email. And I got to talk to somebody on JAWS's team who's in the product marketing

00:47:03   group and his first guess and it was right. He was like, "Let me guess. You've got separate

00:47:10   accounts for iCloud and iTunes." And I was like, "Yes." And he said, "Yeah." And for the most

00:47:18   part over the last few years, that's worked perfectly. So you know what I mean, right?

00:47:22   - Yeah, yep.

00:47:23   - And it's most of us that have like mac.com addresses.

00:47:26   Like if you've been using iCloud

00:47:29   since it was like mac.com.

00:47:31   So I've got, you know, whatever my, you know,

00:47:34   at mac.com is my iCloud account.

00:47:38   And then I've got a Daring Fireball address

00:47:42   that I have used for iTunes

00:47:44   ever since the music store opened in 2002.

00:47:47   So all my purchases are on a @daringfireball email address.

00:47:52   address and my iCloud is a Mac.com. And I think that's the root of all of my problems.

00:47:59   So I think for most people who know, you know, and I think it's very common that if you only

00:48:03   have one account and it's both your iCloud and your store account, you get like this

00:48:08   magic experience. Because the other side effect of this is that because I don't have that

00:48:13   button to just use my Apple card for iTunes purchases, the only way that I could add my

00:48:20   Apple card as my payment source for iTunes was the old-fashioned way of entering the 16-digit

00:48:27   MasterCard number, enter the expiration date, enter the CVV secret number, and then it shows

00:48:35   up. It just shows up in my list as a generic MasterCard. It doesn't show up as an Apple card

00:48:42   with an Apple card shiny logo. It just looks like a generic... You know how when you add a credit

00:48:48   card to this like the Amex looks like an Amex and stuff it just shows up as a

00:48:52   generic MasterCard and I think that's also why and I think the fact that my

00:48:58   Amex had that verification problem is the reason I didn't get the prompt to

00:49:03   just use it as my Apple card because somehow it knew we can't add this as

00:49:07   your payment because you have a problem with the only card you have on your

00:49:10   account. So anyway, it just works. Wow. All good one. But

00:49:18   one thing I will say too. So I wasn't sure like, hey, if this

00:49:23   doesn't see it as an apple card, if it just thinks it's a generic

00:49:25   MasterCard, am I still going to get 3% cash back on Apple

00:49:29   purchases and the truth and the fact is I do. It's still like

00:49:32   that. But like if I buy a movie or rent a movie on iTunes or

00:49:36   something like that, the next day when I get the notification

00:49:39   in the Wallet app, it says 3% cash back.

00:49:43   - Oh, well that's good.

00:49:44   - So I eventually straightened everything out.

00:49:46   I think what I had to do on these devices

00:49:47   to get Tweetbot working was on some of them,

00:49:51   what I did was sign out of iCloud, but not out of iTunes.

00:49:56   Family sharing goes through iCloud,

00:50:01   even though the payment account is my iTunes account.

00:50:06   But by signing out of iCloud temporarily,

00:50:09   then I could go to the App Store and purchase it again

00:50:13   and purchase it on my account.

00:50:15   And so I did and spent the extra five bucks

00:50:18   and got Tweetbot.

00:50:20   But the same thing didn't work on all my devices.

00:50:23   Like on one of the device, I forget which one,

00:50:25   one of the phones I think.

00:50:27   It's even that didn't work.

00:50:28   And I forget what I did.

00:50:29   I just spent like an hour just poking and downloading

00:50:32   and deleting and buying.

00:50:34   and eventually I got Tweetbot working again.

00:50:36   - Wow.

00:50:40   - So that's my Apple Pay story.

00:50:41   - Was there anything about Apple Card

00:50:46   that you were looking for?

00:50:49   I mean, when you look at a credit card, did you want,

00:50:53   oh, you said that they didn't have miles or?

00:50:56   - No, I--

00:50:57   - It's to me, the cashback seems like a great thing.

00:51:01   - I love the cashback, I really do.

00:51:03   So Amex does points.

00:51:05   - Right.

00:51:06   - And I've had Amex for I guess like 10 years

00:51:08   and we've got a zillion points.

00:51:10   But points are confusing to me

00:51:18   because it's very, very difficult to convert them

00:51:21   to figure out what I wanna know is,

00:51:23   the obvious thing you wanna know

00:51:25   is how many cents is a point worth?

00:51:28   And the answer, and there is no answer, right?

00:51:31   It's whatever they want to make it at the time.

00:51:33   - Right.

00:51:35   Roughly speaking, and again,

00:51:39   like a friend of the show and sometimes,

00:51:42   often guest Dan Fromer,

00:51:44   writes like a newsletter just about this.

00:51:47   I forget what he calls it,

00:51:48   Points Pal or something like that.

00:51:50   He's got a great newsletter that tells you all about this

00:51:53   and how to get discounts and what cards to get

00:51:55   for this and that.

00:51:58   There is no easy points to dollars conversion,

00:52:03   but roughly speaking, it's about two cents.

00:52:08   And that makes sense because you get a point for every dollar

00:52:12   they're worth two cents.

00:52:14   So you're getting roughly 2% back, right?

00:52:17   And that makes sense.

00:52:19   It's a good card.

00:52:20   Amex is a good card.

00:52:21   2% is pretty good.

00:52:24   But you really kind of have to do math.

00:52:28   when you use them. So like one of the one of the good ways to use Amex points is to

00:52:34   go through Amex has a travel site and you can book airfare through Amex travel and you

00:52:38   can book hotels through Amex travel. And I've used I don't really use it for airfare. I

00:52:45   like using the actual American Airlines site just because I feel like so many things can

00:52:50   go wrong with air travel and we have an American Airlines credit card to rack up bonus because

00:52:58   Philadelphia is so dominated by America. I can't remember the last time I flew any airline other than American.

00:53:03   Really? Yeah, I think I flew Southwest and I like Southwest,

00:53:09   but I think I flew Southwest once about three years ago. Otherwise every single trip

00:53:14   my entire family has taken business or pleasure

00:53:17   for five or six years has been on American Airlines because it's just they go everywhere we go.

00:53:23   B) We've got gold status.

00:53:27   and see they so dominate Philadelphia that there's an awful lot of places where Americans

00:53:35   literally the only direct flight.

00:53:37   Yeah.

00:53:39   Or like flying to Vegas. I think United has a direct flight, but it's like at an awful

00:53:45   time. It's like it leaves Philly at five o'clock at night and you don't get to Vegas until

00:53:51   11. So it's like, you know, I mean like you're paying for a night at the hotel, but you didn't

00:53:57   even get there until 11 o'clock. What the hell kind of a day of vacation is that? And

00:54:02   I love getting direct flights. I just had so many times where I've gotten burned by

00:54:09   having a layover and just increase, you know, you're just doubling your chances of having

00:54:14   a delay, screw you. So anyway, we fly American all the time. So we got the American credit

00:54:20   card. So for airfare, we just book on American Airlines and use the…that's the only thing

00:54:26   we use the American credit card for is to book airfare. But for Amex Travel, for hotels,

00:54:32   it's really kind of great. And what you can do, but you're doing work. So in other words,

00:54:38   let's say I want to stay at, I don't know, the Hilton in San Francisco, I don't know.

00:54:45   You can go to the Hilton website, look up what their rate is, and it says it's $400

00:54:50   night or whatever the outrageous San Francisco hotel rate is. You go to Amex Travel, put

00:54:57   the same hotel in and it tells you how many points it'll take and therefore you can kind

00:55:03   of compute if you roughly think of them as two cents. Am I getting a deal? Is this a

00:55:06   good use of my points or not? And occasionally, it's a phenomenal use of that if you roughly

00:55:12   value the points at two cents, it's like, wow, that's only like 200 bucks. Take it.

00:55:18   And the other thing, it doesn't always work.

00:55:20   They tell you it does, but Amex says

00:55:22   that you get an automatic upgrade.

00:55:24   So whatever quality room you book through Amex Travel,

00:55:27   when you check in, if it's available,

00:55:30   the hotel is supposed to automatically upgrade you

00:55:32   to the next level up.

00:55:34   And it has happened to me.

00:55:37   Doesn't happen every time, but still.

00:55:39   - Yeah, I don't necessarily believe in that kind of stuff

00:55:43   when they tell me that.

00:55:44   I really don't.

00:55:45   Maybe I just--

00:55:47   but it's work, you know what I mean?

00:55:48   And you can use points in other ways too,

00:55:50   like we have, 'cause we have the Amex saved

00:55:52   on our Amazon account.

00:55:54   So anything we buy on Amazon, if we want to,

00:55:56   we can use points instead of dollars.

00:55:58   But the math just turns me off.

00:56:01   So we just wind up hoarding these points, right?

00:56:04   We've got all of these Amex points

00:56:06   that we could buy all sorts of stuff with.

00:56:08   And Amy more or less wants me to lay my,

00:56:10   she considers them hers.

00:56:12   She's like, "Don't use those points."

00:56:15   I'm like, "But you never use them."

00:56:16   And she's like, don't worry.

00:56:18   - Someday.

00:56:20   - But I find cash back to be so much simpler.

00:56:23   I love the cash back aspect of the card.

00:56:26   It's so much simpler.

00:56:27   It's very honest.

00:56:31   Here you go, you bought something for 100 bucks,

00:56:33   here's two bucks back.

00:56:34   And the fact that they give it to you the next day

00:56:38   is phenomenal. - Yes, yeah.

00:56:40   It's not gonna be long before other cards

00:56:43   start to do some of the things

00:56:45   that Apple is gonna do.

00:56:47   When I look at the process, and I didn't do it myself,

00:56:50   but when my girlfriend did it, I was there,

00:56:53   I watched how she went through it,

00:56:55   and it was just so simple.

00:56:56   To me, that's the whole magical part of the card,

00:56:58   right there, just applying for it.

00:57:01   And then to see the way that the purchases are broken out,

00:57:07   and all of that is just, it's so simple,

00:57:14   but it's a very Apple way of doing things.

00:57:17   Now, one thing I asked Dave Mark this last week

00:57:20   when we were doing our podcast on Thursday,

00:57:23   how do you pay for it?

00:57:26   How do you pay off your card?

00:57:27   I don't know.

00:57:28   He didn't know.

00:57:29   He looked in there to try and find it.

00:57:30   Do you know how you pay off your card?

00:57:31   - So you go to the app, you go to the wallet,

00:57:34   you hit the dot, dot, dot button and scroll down,

00:57:38   and there's a thing called bank accounts,

00:57:40   and you can hook up your bank account.

00:57:43   and then you can therefore use that.

00:57:46   So you just hook up like your personal checking to it,

00:57:49   and then you can use that to pay the card whenever you want.

00:57:52   - So you can't pay, in my understanding,

00:57:55   you can't pay a credit card with another credit card, right?

00:57:59   So does that mean that you can't use a debit card in there,

00:58:02   which is basically cash?

00:58:03   - No, apparently you can't.

00:58:05   And it's funny because I thought of that,

00:58:08   and I'm not quite sure if it's because

00:58:11   even though a debit card is cash,

00:58:13   it's still too close to a credit card

00:58:16   and goes through the credit card network,

00:58:18   that they don't wanna let you do it.

00:58:19   But you definitely can't pay a credit card

00:58:22   with a credit card at least directly, right?

00:58:26   Like indirectly, you could take a cash advance

00:58:29   from a credit card and use the cash advance

00:58:31   to pay another credit card.

00:58:33   I mean, obviously, if you're doing that,

00:58:34   you're-- - Well, you shouldn't have it

00:58:36   in the first place.

00:58:37   - You're entering the circle of hell of credit card debt.

00:58:40   So there's ways around it, but you can't do it directly.

00:58:43   You can't just call up your MasterCard and say, here's my visa.

00:58:47   Yeah. Pay it off. And then two weeks later call me.

00:58:51   So it's my MasterCard. You can't. Um,

00:58:55   but I thought about that with Apple cash because I actually have,

00:59:00   like, um, I don't know, I've,

00:59:04   somehow I've wound up with like $3,000 on my Apple cash card because of various,

00:59:12   I've had meals over the last year or two with friends where I've paid and then the

00:59:21   friends have Apple cashed me their share. Rather than put six cards in the bill or something

00:59:28   like that, I'll put my card in. For a couple of meals, I've done this. So I've somehow

00:59:33   with friends repaying me for stuff and a couple of other things like shared gifts for mutual

00:59:39   friends where we've gone in and bought a gift for a friend for the birthday. Anyway,

00:59:43   I've wound up with $3,000 on my Apple Cash card and yet I've only charged like in a

00:59:49   week since I've had the Apple credit card, I've only charged like $87. So I could easily

00:59:54   pay it with the Apple Cash, but you can't. I guess you need to put a bank account in

01:00:02   there. But anyway, that's how you do it. You go to the wallet, dot, dot, dot, scroll

01:00:06   down bank accounts, enter a bank account, and then you can use the bank account to pay

01:00:10   it.

01:00:11   Well, that's good to know. So very easy.

01:00:14   It is, yeah. It's very easy. The other thing I know that was an issue, Nicole Nguyen at

01:00:22   BuzzFeed News had an article about the fact that there's no website to log into to look

01:00:29   at your Apple card. So if you lose your iPhone and it's your only iOS device, there's

01:00:40   no way to access your account, which is an issue. And when I talked to Apple about my

01:00:46   other problem, I asked about it. And typical Apple fashion, they're not going to tell

01:00:51   me what's coming. They don't tell you what's coming. But I asked, "Are there any

01:00:57   plans for like a website. And there is like if you type wallet.apple.com, that's an actual

01:01:05   website. Right now it forwards you to another apple.com. It forwards you somewhere in apple.com/applecard

01:01:13   and tells you all about apple card. I hope that wallet.applecard becomes a destination

01:01:22   where you can do stuff like that. But I was told something interesting talking to Apple

01:01:29   about this, which I hadn't thought of. So you ever hear of Mint? I don't know if Mint

01:01:36   is even still around. So Mint is a personal finance manager. You go in there and you effectively

01:01:43   give them the login to all of your financial info. You give them the login to your bank,

01:01:49   give them the login to your credit cards and stuff like that. And then Mint keeps track of all of

01:01:54   your finances. And there's dozens and dozens of other services that do the same thing, I'm sure,

01:02:00   because it's an obvious need or an obvious, it's something with obvious appeal.

01:02:05   Apple is genuinely concerned about the privacy implications of that, of all of those services.

01:02:14   and that they looked at—I'm mentioning Mint. Apple did not mention anybody in specifics.

01:02:21   Apple didn't mention Mint in particular, so let me make that clear. They just mentioned—I

01:02:26   mentioned Mint as an example because I know that Amy has used it, and it's the one that

01:02:30   I know of. But they just mentioned them in general as a category of service, but they

01:02:36   said that they've looked in detail at these services' privacy policies, and they're

01:02:43   comfortable with them. And so if there were a website where you could log into your Apple

01:02:51   card and look at all your purchases and stuff like that, that would therefore enable you,

01:02:56   it would enable a service, these personal finance managers to also do the same thing.

01:03:01   And Apple is not comfortable with that. Whereas the way it works now where you can only do

01:03:05   it through the wallet app on an iPhone or now you can't, you know, there is no wallet

01:03:12   app for iPad because you know it doesn't have NFC. You can't take your iPad up and swipe

01:03:20   it at a term, you know, wave it at a terminal, but you can go. There is in settings on an

01:03:25   iPad, there is an Apple pay and Apple card or Apple pay and wallet section. And so you

01:03:31   You can, if you have an iPad and an iPhone, you can get to your Apple card on your iPad

01:03:42   in settings by going down to the right section and you can do certain stuff there. But by

01:03:48   doing it only on iOS, in addition to Apple's sort of app-first mentality as opposed to

01:03:54   web-first mentality, they also see it as privacy protection. And I believe that. I totally

01:03:59   believe that as it as part of the reason why it's set up the way it is.

01:04:03   Oh, I mean, I trust Apple. And it's its commitment to privacy and security implicitly. You know,

01:04:12   something,

01:04:12   except for having contractors listen to your Siri conversations. Hey, so so here I am. I'm on my

01:04:25   iPad. You go to settings, you scroll down, and there's wallet and Apple Pay. And you can go there

01:04:31   and it lists, you know, you can use Apple cash. So you can, you know, from my message, you can send

01:04:36   Apple cash. Here's my Apple card, it's listed here, you can go in there. And when you go in

01:04:41   there, and this is on the iPad, I'm looking at it right now, you get a lot of the same info that you

01:04:48   see on the phone in the wallet app. So there's the little button to message so you can do the

01:04:54   the magic iMessage chat with the credit card people.

01:04:58   You can call them, you can go to their website.

01:05:00   You can make a payment.

01:05:03   So,

01:05:05   it doesn't help you if you don't have

01:05:10   an iPad, but if you do have an iPad and an iPhone,

01:05:16   and your iPhone is stolen or lost or totally broken,

01:05:20   you can make a payment from your iPad.

01:05:23   So it's not quite as dire as the BuzzFeed story made it sound that you're tied to the

01:05:29   one and only device.

01:05:33   So one of the other mini controversies about Apple Card was somebody read the terms and

01:05:39   conditions and noticed a section that said something to the effect of Apple might send

01:05:49   you notifications of special offers based on your purchase history. Something to that effect.

01:05:57   And this hit Twitter and a lot of people interpreted that quite naturally as, "This sucks.

01:06:05   You're going to get spam about shit to buy." So like if you play golf and they notice that

01:06:13   once or twice a week, you're paying for 18 holes of golf or you're buying golf balls

01:06:21   and stuff like that. All of a sudden, you're going to start getting notifications for titleist

01:06:26   and stuff like that. Or if you're a sneaker collector and you buy a lot of sneakers,

01:06:35   you're going to start getting special offers from Foot Locker or something like that.

01:06:41   That's not—so talking to Apple, that is not—I think their lawyers or whoever wrote that did a

01:06:50   bit of a disservice, or at least in plain English, and maybe they were just typical

01:06:55   lawyerees covering Apple's ass to let them do whatever they want. What that really means is

01:07:03   it's specific to the Apple card product. Meaning so the best example was did you see that the

01:07:13   they worked out a deal with Uber, where if you use Apple card for Uber, you get the 3% instead of 2%

01:07:19   cash back. Right. So the example they gave me was, for example, if they noticed that you use ride

01:07:27   sharing apps and you used Apple Card for it. They might send you a notification that says,

01:07:38   "Hey, Apple Card now offers 3% cash back with Uber." And as time goes on, and again, they

01:07:49   said, "We might," but I think obviously they're working deals with all sorts of companies

01:07:55   to get 3% instead of 2% with various companies. So, when they work out these deals where you

01:08:01   get the extra cash back with, let's say, a certain sporting good company and they notice

01:08:11   that you've bought sporting goods, you might get a notification that says if you go to

01:08:16   Brand X Sporting Goods, you'll get 3% cash back. But if you never buy sporting goods,

01:08:24   may not send you that notification or hopefully won't because it doesn't seem to be of interest

01:08:29   to you. So it's the notifications that they're talking about that you might receive based

01:08:34   on your purchase history are specific to special features of Apple Card that you might want

01:08:39   to know about, which still might annoy some people because I know some people are like

01:08:44   notification purists. And again, if you're out there listening to the podcast and you're

01:08:49   like that, I'm not holding it against you. I'm not saying you're crazy or anything. I

01:08:53   it's perfectly reasonable. But it's absolutely not going to be random spam like you're

01:09:01   walking past a McDonald's and an Apple card is going to tell you to go in there and buy

01:09:05   a good one.

01:09:06   Tim Cynova Yeah, a little video from Tim comes up.

01:09:11   Jon Moffitt Well, you laugh, but the way that the terms

01:09:15   and conditions are written, it sounds like it could be, but that's not it. It's about

01:09:19   the special offers. And that's going to be—

01:09:22   How do you feel about that? Are you okay with that?

01:09:24   Yeah, I actually am. I actually, because honestly, the 3% cash back is the main reason I got

01:09:31   the card. I really, if they didn't offer 3% cash back on Apple purchases, I don't know

01:09:38   that I would have signed up. It's because I know I'm getting more cash back than I would

01:09:42   through my Amex and I know I spend an awful lot of money at Apple on an annual basis,

01:09:47   know, with iPhones and iPads and, you know, iTunes, you know, and stuff like that. 3%

01:09:56   versus roughly 2%. And getting cash back instead of silly Amex points is worth it for me. So

01:10:02   knowing that there's other places that I could go and get 3% is definitely something

01:10:08   I want to know about.

01:10:09   Tom Bilyeu (01h00m 10s): No, I agree. I mean, it makes perfect sense.

01:10:15   I think we all kind of knew that the Apple card was going to be popular just because

01:10:20   Apple is putting out this card. It's going to be popular among tech because they want to try and

01:10:25   poke holes in it. And it's going to be popular with a lot of people because they want that titanium

01:10:31   card. So, but looking at it, it actually looks like a good card.

01:10:39   Yeah, it really does. The other thing too, I want to say,

01:10:44   talking to Apple was the other question that Nicole Nguyen's article brought up, and people

01:10:50   rightly said without a website, well, how do you get like, you know, how do you get

01:10:55   like your year's worth of statements? Like, let's say you want to, it's April, it's time

01:10:59   to do your taxes, and you want to bring your credit card statement and give it to your

01:11:04   accountant, you know, to go through and figure out what you can deduct and stuff like that.

01:11:09   How do you do that if there's no website? Nobody has it yet, I don't think, because

01:11:14   everybody's so new that nobody's gotten one. But in the Apple card, if you go to the dot

01:11:21   dot dot again, and you scroll down, or somewhere, where do you go? There's somewhere you can

01:11:26   go. And, oh, card information. If you go to card information, or nope, that's not it.

01:11:33   Well, there's somewhere you can go and it says statements. And every month there will

01:11:38   be a statement that you can download or share that will give you a PDF of your month's

01:11:46   statement. So you can do that. Yeah. So you will be able to do that and they will collect.

01:11:53   So like you could wait till April and then just go back and get your August, September,

01:11:57   October, November, December, January, February, get all of your statements for those months.

01:12:02   Send them to your Mac, do whatever you want, print them. So there is actually a way. There

01:12:07   is actually a way, you know, it's not just lost in the shuffle of the little iPhone notifications

01:12:14   where you get that. See, those are the little things, you know, those are the little things that

01:12:22   you expect and they are in there, they're waiting for you. Yeah, here's where you go. I like that.

01:12:30   You go to your Apple card in the wallet and then there's the, it shows you the fake card

01:12:35   and then right underneath it, it says total balance. And when you click the total balance

01:12:39   thing, it gives you your outstanding balance, tells you your new spending, tells you your daily

01:12:46   cash, what you just got back, and then it says statements. So mine says no statements because

01:12:51   my card's only like a week old. But as the months go by, there will be a list of statements there

01:12:58   that you can download. So they've thought this through pretty well.

01:13:03   - Are you going to transfer a lot of your,

01:13:08   your, you know, regular credit card bills to the Apple Card?

01:13:12   Or are you gonna just kind of see how it goes?

01:13:16   - I'm gonna see how it goes.

01:13:21   'Cause I still do like the Amex.

01:13:23   And so, you know, and for roughly 2%, I, you know,

01:13:28   I'm not sure what to do.

01:13:29   I don't know.

01:13:32   What about moving all of your automatic Apple purchases?

01:13:35   - Oh, definitely.

01:13:36   All the Apple stuff is already there.

01:13:38   I mean, it's a no-brainer not to.

01:13:40   3% is too much.

01:13:42   And again, we're arguing about the difference

01:13:45   between 1%, 2% to 3%, but 1% is 1%.

01:13:48   You know what I mean?

01:13:50   - It's money.

01:13:51   - Right, exactly.

01:13:52   - I would do it too.

01:13:56   So did Amy get a card too?

01:13:59   - No.

01:14:00   And one of the weird things about this card

01:14:02   is you can't get a joint card, or at least not yet.

01:14:06   You know, like our Amex is,

01:14:08   actually all of our other credit cards are joint accounts.

01:14:11   You know, like the Amex is technically in my name,

01:14:15   but Amy has a card.

01:14:16   The American Airlines card is in her name,

01:14:20   but I have a card.

01:14:21   - That's the way a lot of cards are in families.

01:14:26   - Well, I think most,

01:14:28   but there's no option for that with Apple cards.

01:14:30   So like if you and your significant other, your spouse,

01:14:34   want to both get Apple Card, you both get an Apple Card

01:14:37   and you have your own account.

01:14:38   I don't know if that's good or bad.

01:14:43   I mean--

01:14:45   - Well, and some parents, you'll learn this

01:14:47   when Jonas is older, but you get a card for your kid too,

01:14:52   sometimes, you know, if they're going away on a trip,

01:14:55   you wanna make sure that they have that security

01:14:57   of they'll never be stopped.

01:14:59   You know what? We actually, he, Jonas actually, we got him on our Amex just for that reason.

01:15:04   I mean, he doesn't use it. I mean, and he was told, you know, you know, we get alerts

01:15:10   as soon as the card is used. I forget how long he's had it. But he's never, he's a good

01:15:16   kid. He's never, and he's not stupid. Right. So he's never abused it. But it's exactly

01:15:22   for that reason. Just in case something happens, he's got a credit card that he can use, you

01:15:28   to get home or for whatever.

01:15:31   It's modern parenting.

01:15:35   - Yes.

01:15:36   - It's the same reason kids all have phones now

01:15:38   and you can GPS track them.

01:15:40   - Yep.

01:15:41   - It's so weird.

01:15:42   - I know I used to get,

01:15:45   my father used to give me,

01:15:48   make sure I had a dime to make a phone call

01:15:50   at the pay phone.

01:15:51   - I remember that.

01:15:52   - Yeah, and a little bit of walking around money.

01:15:57   So if you're going to a hockey game,

01:15:59   you might need some fries.

01:16:00   Now, this is obviously, you know, back a bit.

01:16:04   So he would give me like $5 or something like that.

01:16:08   And you know, you can get some fries and something to drink

01:16:11   and go to a hockey game as we all did.

01:16:14   And you know, at the very end of the night,

01:16:18   if you spent all of your money and you needed a ride home,

01:16:21   here's your dime.

01:16:22   You can go to the payphone and call.

01:16:25   - Yeah.

01:16:26   It's a very different one. We could do a whole show on what a different world it is.

01:16:35   But it's weird. The kids growing up in this world, they so accept it. It doesn't seem

01:16:41   to bother Jonas at all that we can find my friends and locate him any moment of any day.

01:16:51   That would have bothered me as a 15 year old a lot.

01:16:55   And I wasn't a particularly bad kid,

01:16:58   but I definitely went places

01:17:00   I wouldn't have wanted my parents to know about.

01:17:02   - Well, yeah.

01:17:03   - Or I would tell my parents I was going

01:17:04   to so-and-so's house,

01:17:05   but I was really going to such-and-such's house.

01:17:08   Didn't want them to know.

01:17:10   - I mean, my parents are still learning things

01:17:12   that I did when I was a kid, and they're horrified.

01:17:16   - Right.

01:17:17   (laughing)

01:17:19   That's okay though. I mean, but you know, so anyway, when,

01:17:24   when Apple first announced the apple card, I was somewhat critical.

01:17:29   Like I think my quip was more or less what's next payday loans at the retail

01:17:33   apple stores. Wow. Well, I'm still,

01:17:38   I'm still, I think this is a very good credit card. I do.

01:17:44   I think the cash back system is great. I think that the,

01:17:47   the breakdown of categorization of stuff is great. I think the fact that they give you

01:17:52   the cash back on a daily basis is fantastic. They're not holding that to float the money.

01:17:58   They're really giving you that cash back about as fast as they can in a very convenient fashion

01:18:03   that you can spend the same way you use your Apple card.

01:18:10   As a credit card, it's really hard to criticize it. Even the fact that you can't have a joint

01:18:14   account. Like I said, I don't know if that's a bad thing or a good thing because it's so

01:18:18   personal. The fact that you're spending habits and stuff, would you want to be mixed in with

01:18:26   your significant other as opposed to telling me how much money I'm blowing on beer? You

01:18:31   know what I mean? You know what I mean?

01:18:35   Yeah. Yeah. I get it. I think it would be helpful for a lot of people. I think a lot

01:18:42   of people would really like that feature. I mean, for me, it doesn't really matter. When I get an

01:18:48   Apple card, then it's going to be my Apple card. And, you know,

01:18:53   you know, one one reason that it's good to have a joint card. I mean, Amy is, I'll admit is the bill

01:19:00   payer of the family, which is why we're, thankfully, which is why we're never late paying things like

01:19:06   the mortgage because it's not left to me. And so, for example, the fact that she has one Amex bill

01:19:15   to pay as opposed to two is one less thing to take care of every month. I think one of the reasons

01:19:20   that's mitigated with Apple Card is that it's so easy to pay, right? Like, I think, you know, A,

01:19:27   you can pay it at any time. So, like, I, you know, I could take my week-old card right now and push

01:19:32   two buttons and pay off my $87 balance right now. But if I just wait for my statement to end,

01:19:40   I'm going to get a notification and I can say, "Pay it." It's the least you can possibly—you

01:19:49   wouldn't want it to do less, right? I wouldn't want it to pay automatically, I don't think. I'd

01:19:55   like to know, "Here's what my balance was for the month," and say, "Okay, pay it."

01:19:59   So, you know, it doesn't seem like a huge hassle if you and your significant other both

01:20:08   have a card that you're now doubling the number of bills you have to pay every month

01:20:13   because it's so easy. My biggest complaint is honestly the interest rates. And most of

01:20:23   the people I know who got an Apple card, including me, got the 13% interest rate, 12.99. But

01:20:30   let's face it, that's 13%. That seems to be the lowest interest rate that you can get

01:20:35   with Apple card. And it is also a lower interest rate than most credit cards seem to offer

01:20:43   today. Some people, I think that they say that their interest rates, depending on your

01:20:50   your credit worthiness go up to like 24%

01:20:52   or something like that.

01:20:53   I think that's too high.

01:20:57   I think the whole industry, and again,

01:20:58   even if Apple Card is leading the industry

01:21:02   on the interest rates that they're bestowing

01:21:06   upon their customers, I think the whole industry is rotten.

01:21:09   I mean, would--

01:21:11   - Of course it is, that's how they make their money.

01:21:14   - But 20, 20, 30 years ago, like when I was in college

01:21:18   and I first got a credit card,

01:21:19   the interest rates were like 7%, 8%.

01:21:22   I realized the whole--

01:21:26   - But they learned they could make more from it.

01:21:28   - Well, but why not expect Apple to do better, right?

01:21:32   - I suppose, yeah.

01:21:33   - I just think that if the best that they can offer

01:21:40   for someone with what they deem

01:21:42   to be the highest quality credit worthiness

01:21:44   is 13% interest, that's practical usury in my opinion. Tim Cook would never borrow money

01:21:53   at Apple for 13% interest. You know, like when they do some of these cash back things,

01:21:59   it's funny for a company with so much cash that they've taken on debt, but they've done

01:22:04   it because they can take debt at such a low interest rate that it's more valuable than

01:22:10   using their cash to pay off the stuff that they want to do.

01:22:14   So Apple as a corporation is carrying

01:22:18   a surprising amount of debt given how much cash they have,

01:22:21   but it's because they took that debt

01:22:23   at two or 3% interest or something like that.

01:22:26   Apple would never take 13% interest.

01:22:28   It's outrageous in my opinion.

01:22:30   - You know what, Apple is the richest company in the world,

01:22:35   most powerful company in the world.

01:22:37   Maybe if you were the richest man in the world,

01:22:40   you wouldn't be getting interest at 13% either. Right. And I,

01:22:44   and for people with poor credit, I get it. I say, if,

01:22:48   if your credit is poor enough that you want to charge 24% interest,

01:22:52   I can't believe my phone went off again. I thought I had,

01:22:56   what the hell is wrong with you? I don't know.

01:23:02   You would think I've done podcasts before. I think it's me.

01:23:06   I think I'm history off. Yeah.

01:23:08   It's like I got like a contact Heineken hi

01:23:10   Our 2d to freaking out that's that's the ringtone from my parents nice

01:23:21   If if somebody applies for an apple card and their credit history is such that they want Apple

01:23:30   You know that Goldman Sachs deems and I realize that these decisions are made by Goldman not Apple

01:23:35   But and they say, well, you're going to get 20-25% interest to what number 125% interest

01:23:41   should be illegal. I honestly I'm not exaggerating. I'm not that it's just outrageous. And you're

01:23:47   giving these incredibly high, genuine usury, it should be illegal, really, it's just criminal.

01:23:54   And I say this, and I know that a lot of people in tech are libertarians. And when I've criticized

01:24:01   this publicly on during fireball, some of the response I get very reasonable, this, you know,

01:24:05   it's the best sort of I disagree with you feedback. I don't know about your readers,

01:24:12   but when I get I disagree with your feedback, for the most part, it's fantastic. I enjoy reading it.

01:24:18   I like to think about it. The libertarian angle on this is if you don't like 24% interest,

01:24:27   don't sign up for it. Right? You know, it's not like they're surprising you. It's not like they're

01:24:33   They're giving you, they're not telling you

01:24:35   what the interest rate is, and then you find out

01:24:38   after you carry a balance.

01:24:39   They're telling you before, you know,

01:24:42   you go through the signup process,

01:24:45   and before you finalize and say, yes, give me an Apple card,

01:24:48   they tell you, here's your credit limit, X thousand dollars,

01:24:52   here's your interest rate, 13% or 18% or whatever,

01:24:56   hit this button to get the Apple card under these terms,

01:24:59   or hit cancel, and you don't.

01:25:01   So you're, you know what you're signing up for. But

01:25:03   my take on this is that I don't think,

01:25:08   I think part of a functioning government in a,

01:25:14   in a representative democracy is that the government looks out

01:25:18   for the people and that I don't think

01:25:23   it's,

01:25:24   it's your duty to be mathematically adept enough to know

01:25:30   just how troublesome 25% interest can be and how quickly it can escalate that you can buy

01:25:43   something for a couple hundred dollars and if you decide I'm going to pay this over time

01:25:48   because that's why I got the credit card, which is part of the reason some people have

01:25:53   a credit card is they want to purchase something they don't purchase a $500 device or let's

01:25:57   say a thousand dollar iPhone and they don't want to pay for it all at once. But at something

01:26:02   like 24% or 25% interest, you can be making minimum payments and you're never going

01:26:10   to get there. That's how high the interest is. I honestly think that should be criminal.

01:26:15   I realize Apple's not out of line on this. I realize Goldman's not out of line with

01:26:19   the industry. I realize that 13% is actually good for the industry. But I just say the

01:26:25   whole industry is rotten and these interest rates, why not lead the way? And that would

01:26:30   be a selling point. Why not say that our interest rates go as low as 7% or 6% if you have good

01:26:35   credit? And, you know, we'll be way and, you know, it's a mixed bag because obviously,

01:26:41   the people who are probably most credit worthy and the people who would qualify for the lowest

01:26:44   rate are the people who are most likely to pay their credit card balance every month.

01:26:48   Well, and that's how they make money too. They get the people that do leave the balances

01:26:53   But I don't know the credit card industry well enough to be able to say this as fact, but I'm not sure that Apple was really in a position to be able to negotiate the rates as well as what you think that they may have been.

01:27:12   Because they're not the bank Goldman is.

01:27:14   - Right, so we could be looking at a situation

01:27:18   in three to five years where Apple will say,

01:27:22   "You know what, we've topped out the interest rate

01:27:25   "for the Apple card at 15%."

01:27:28   Now everybody's rate, well the highest it'll be is 15

01:27:32   because they do have that power at that point.

01:27:35   - I hope that they're going that way.

01:27:36   - As far as people are concerned,

01:27:40   It bothers me personally that there are so many people

01:27:45   in credit card debt, like tens of thousands of dollars

01:27:50   in credit card debt, and the stress that that must bring

01:27:53   them as an individual in a family.

01:27:57   And you know, when there are a lot of resources available

01:28:02   to people though, and it's not necessarily,

01:28:07   do I wish the credit card companies,

01:28:09   - Well, it could be made to cap an interest rate.

01:28:12   Yeah, of course, absolutely.

01:28:14   But people, if you're putting an iPhone on your credit card

01:28:19   because you can't afford, and you see no way in the next year

01:28:28   that you'll be able to afford to buy it,

01:28:31   then I think instead of looking at getting the credit card,

01:28:34   you need to look at whether or not

01:28:36   you should be getting the phone, not the credit card.

01:28:39   And I understand that it's easy for me to say that

01:28:44   and I'm not trying to offend anybody.

01:28:49   I'm just trying to say that there's two ways to look

01:28:54   at this whole thing and no matter how low

01:28:58   or how high the interest rates are for credit cards,

01:29:01   some people are still gonna get it.

01:29:03   You could tell them your interest rate is 50%.

01:29:07   Okay, give me the card.

01:29:09   - That's why I think the government

01:29:10   should regulate the maximum rate.

01:29:12   I think it should be a lot lower than 20-something percent.

01:29:15   I really do, even for people with poor credit.

01:29:17   And if the maximum rate were 15% or 16%

01:29:22   and a bank said, "Well, at only 16%,

01:29:25   "we don't think it's worth giving it to this person

01:29:28   "because they're so risky, we really want the higher rate."

01:29:30   Well, then don't give them a credit card.

01:29:32   - Right.

01:29:33   - Anyway, that's my take on it.

01:29:37   Anyway, it's a good card, I like it.

01:29:38   I didn't get the physical card yet.

01:29:40   - Oh no.

01:29:41   - It's supposedly, it tells me it's coming tomorrow.

01:29:44   So it's after this podcast.

01:29:47   Did you see the thing where they,

01:29:49   people were freaking out because it says

01:29:52   it gets stained by leather and denim?

01:29:56   - So that's what I posted that song last week.

01:29:59   I think it was Friday.

01:30:01   It's an old metal song called "Denim and Leather"

01:30:04   by Saxon and I said, this is the new Apple Card theme song.

01:30:08   Of course it has nothing to do with the Apple card,

01:30:11   but Denim in Leather just seemed like a great song to post.

01:30:15   It is a great song.

01:30:17   So yeah, do you care about that?

01:30:20   I don't care.

01:30:21   - Well, what I wrote, and again, we'll see.

01:30:23   I'll get the card tomorrow.

01:30:24   I guess I'll keep it in my wallet.

01:30:25   I mean, my wallet is leather, as a lot of people's are.

01:30:30   And I do wear blue jeans most of the year.

01:30:33   I suspect, and this is what I wrote,

01:30:37   I suspect that they're, most of my credit cards get scuffed up. I went through my wallet

01:30:43   when this broke. My first reaction when I saw this story was that maybe Apple screwed

01:30:48   up. My first knee-jerk reaction was to just make fun of them and say, "Well, it's a good

01:30:53   thing nobody has leather wallets or wears blue jeans." But then I thought about it and

01:30:57   I read the actual support document. It's under the category of how to clean your Apple card

01:31:03   and what to use and what not to use. And they mentioned this that it might be stained by

01:31:09   leather or denim. The more I thought about it, the more—and I took out my wallet and

01:31:15   looked at my cards and they're all scuffed up and scratched. And they say, "Don't

01:31:18   put it in the same pocket as another card. It might get scratched." All my credit cards

01:31:22   are scratched for the most part. My driver's license is scratched. I mean, none of them—they're

01:31:27   good condition, but they all definitely look used. None of them look like they're in mint condition,

01:31:33   with the exception of my Amex, which is actually, it's also made of metal. I don't know what kind

01:31:38   of metal it is, but the Platinum Amex is made of metal. It sort of feels like a weapon, like you

01:31:45   could like throwing stars. But the Amex card, like I told you earlier in the show, was just replaced

01:31:55   a couple months ago. So it's, you know, the fact that it's made of metal is obviously

01:32:00   makes it more durable than a plastic card. But I've only had this card for a couple

01:32:04   of months. So, you know, I forget I'm pretty sure like the like the signature strip on

01:32:10   my previous metal Amex card was frayed and worn, you know, like there's there's definitely

01:32:15   wear and tear on it after a year or two. I don't care. I mean, my credit, of course,

01:32:21   - Other credit cards look used.

01:32:22   So I really do think that this support document

01:32:25   is there for the benefit of the obsessive,

01:32:27   the Apple obsessives who want to keep their Apple card

01:32:31   pristine mint condition.

01:32:33   And okay, if you wanna keep it mint condition,

01:32:35   here's what you wanna do.

01:32:37   - It's a credit card.

01:32:38   - Yeah, just freaking use it.

01:32:40   - When I saw that and the whole denim and leather thing,

01:32:44   I thought, who cares?

01:32:46   Because if Apple didn't post this,

01:32:49   then people would have put it in their pocket

01:32:51   And then they would have said, oh my God, my card, it's, it's, uh, you know, discolored.

01:32:56   Well, you know, they posted something. Yes, it could get discolored. Don't care. It's

01:33:01   a credit card.

01:33:02   Every once in a while. I guess the thing in the back of some people's minds is that every

01:33:05   once in a while, although I don't think off the top of my head, I don't think it's happened

01:33:09   recently, but every once in a while, Apple comes out with a product that is too fragile.

01:33:14   I mean, the one that really comes to mind was in the one generation of iPod nano circa.

01:33:20   was around 2005 or 2006. Do you remember this? There was an iPod Nano where the front of

01:33:28   it was, you could scratch it by looking at it. You remember this?

01:33:33   I don't know if I do.

01:33:35   Oh, well, let's, I have to put this in the show notes. I'll find it. But there was

01:33:40   an iPod Nano generation around 2005 that was so easily scratched that it was, it really

01:33:48   made you wonder how the hell it ever shipped because it must have, they must not have,

01:33:53   it really must not have stress tested it at all. I'm trying to think of other examples.

01:34:00   I guess the, the titanium G4 power books, and I guess that's the other thing in people's

01:34:05   minds because this card is made of titanium. The first titanium G4 power books, which,

01:34:12   which were the, the first ones that weren't made of plastic, you know, like black plastic

01:34:17   and they switched to what looks like a modern MacBook Pro still, a silver-colored metal

01:34:23   power book. But it was before they switched to aluminum that they'd flake over time. It was sort

01:34:33   of like that titanium was sort of a painted titanium, and the more you used it, it showed

01:34:39   a lot of wear and tear. And I guess people are worried that this card will be like that, but I

01:34:45   I don't think that the card,

01:34:46   I think it's a very different sort of titanium.

01:34:48   - Yeah, I'm not worried about that at all.

01:34:53   I don't know if I'm looking at this wrong or what,

01:35:00   but when I look at this card, I see a credit card.

01:35:05   Is it gonna be cool?

01:35:07   Sure, yeah, absolutely cool.

01:35:10   - But still, it's a credit card.

01:35:11   You're supposed to use it.

01:35:12   - It's a credit card.

01:35:13   - It's supposed to bang around in your wallet,

01:35:15   and when you do use it at a place that doesn't have

01:35:16   Apple Pay, you're giving it to them and they're swiping it.

01:35:20   - Right, I just do not care that much about,

01:35:25   I mean, if you want your aluminum or your titanium

01:35:29   credit card to be pristine, then frame it

01:35:33   and put it on your counter.

01:35:36   Otherwise it's a credit card.

01:35:38   - I saw some people speculate that they may,

01:35:40   and I don't think this is true at all,

01:35:42   I think that this card, because it's made of titanium,

01:35:44   should be actually very durable.

01:35:45   It should be very cool.

01:35:46   I can't speak to it yet, I don't have it.

01:35:48   I do have friends who have it.

01:35:49   They think it is a very cool card.

01:35:51   Which is the thing, I mean, it's cooler to have a cool card

01:35:56   than a lame card.

01:35:57   - Of course. - But still, who cares?

01:35:58   - Yeah. - It's a freaking

01:35:59   credit card. - Who cares?

01:36:01   - It's interesting to think about where you still use a card.

01:36:04   Here's the, one of the pieces of speculation

01:36:06   I saw floating around is that Apple made the card delicate

01:36:09   to encourage people to use Apple Pay.

01:36:11   And you do get, you get more cash back.

01:36:13   You get 2% cash back on an Apple Pay payment,

01:36:16   and when you use the card itself,

01:36:17   you only get 1% cash back.

01:36:19   So that is clearly motivation.

01:36:22   I mean, there's no other explanation for it

01:36:25   than that they would prefer you use Apple Pay

01:36:27   than use the card.

01:36:28   You get a full extra percent cash back.

01:36:31   What's interesting to think about

01:36:33   is where you still have to use the card itself.

01:36:37   And the two places that come to mind,

01:36:42   and it's very US specific,

01:36:45   can you think of the two places

01:36:49   where you have to use a card?

01:36:50   - Costco?

01:36:53   - Well, what now?

01:36:54   I don't know about, I don't shop at Costco.

01:36:56   Well, restaurants, right?

01:36:58   You go to, when you go to a sit-down restaurant,

01:37:00   the bill comes, you have to put your card in the bill,

01:37:03   and then the server takes the card away.

01:37:05   - Okay.

01:37:06   - Now, you've been to Europe, right?

01:37:08   - Yep.

01:37:09   - In Europe, they come to your table

01:37:10   with a little card reader.

01:37:11   - And yeah, they do that in Canada in a lot too.

01:37:13   - Yeah, so everywhere, well, yeah,

01:37:15   so I didn't know they did it in Canada too.

01:37:17   So it's pretty much like our systems of measurement

01:37:22   in Fahrenheit, in miles and inches.

01:37:25   It's a US thing only and it's, you know,

01:37:28   and once you think about it,

01:37:30   it is weird that you just hand your credit card

01:37:33   to a complete stranger and they walk away for five minutes

01:37:36   and then come back.

01:37:37   - Then you own a new motorcycle or TV.

01:37:40   - Well, it obviously doesn't happen a lot,

01:37:42   but it's quite possibly how it happened

01:37:45   to me a couple months ago, I don't know.

01:37:46   But in most other Western countries,

01:37:49   they come to your table with a little handheld reader

01:37:51   and I guess you used to have to insert it.

01:37:53   Maybe now you can just wave it at it

01:37:55   and get the NFC type thing

01:37:57   and now you can use Apple Pay to pay.

01:37:59   But anyway, most, almost all restaurants here in the US,

01:38:03   you still have to pay by handing your card over.

01:38:07   And then the other one is gas stations.

01:38:10   And there definitely are gas stations that take Apple Pay,

01:38:16   but a lot don't, maybe most don't.

01:38:21   And talking to people at Apple about this,

01:38:26   they mentioned gas stations,

01:38:29   and they said that one of the problems with gas stations,

01:38:33   like one of the reasons that Apple Pay

01:38:34   has been able to spread as quickly as it has

01:38:37   is that at this point, it's hard to get a point of sale system that doesn't take Apple

01:38:44   Pay. So whether you're a new store or counter restaurant or new whatever, and you're getting,

01:38:53   "Well, let's get a point of sale system to buy stuff," just about anything you can buy

01:38:58   takes the NFC payment. So you can just waive your Apple Pay at it. And even existing businesses,

01:39:05   they eventually turn them over and get new ones. So anybody with a new one, it turns over.

01:39:09   And there's some regulations from the credit card companies where they're insisting that people be

01:39:15   take the ones that take the chip reader for extra security. And if you get the one with the chip

01:39:20   reader, which the credit card companies are starting to require, you get the Apple Pay

01:39:25   NFC stuff for free because it's the same system. Gas stations are different because the

01:39:34   card readers are built into the pumps. So it's not like you just get in the gas station just needs to

01:39:41   buy a couple of new credit card readers and now they can take Apple pay. They would have to replace

01:39:46   the actual pumps, which is obviously a much more significant expense. And so gas stations actually

01:39:54   get exemptions from like the credit card companies that say, "Hey, by such and such date, retailers

01:40:02   have to be able to take chip payments and stuff like that. Gas stations have a special

01:40:08   exemption to that in a much longer period of time before they have to do it. So gas

01:40:13   stations and restaurants.

01:40:15   Tom: Restaurants. Makes sense. Yeah.

01:40:19   Jay Famiglietti I guess we can move on from Apple Pay. Why

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01:42:15   them that you came from here did you just see German's big fall preview

01:42:24   Rumorpalooza? Pretty detailed, you know. It's actually—even by Gherman standards, I thought

01:42:33   surprisingly detailed. Sort of look ahead at what Mark Gurman's sources are saying

01:42:41   are coming from Apple this fall. I mean, surprise, surprise, iPhones and new watches in September.

01:42:48   But one of the things he said—and I forget where this rumor—this rumor leaked on Twitter

01:42:53   from somebody whose name I didn't recognize, but one of those—there's like that weird

01:42:57   subculture of Apple and phone leakers who exist solely on Twitter. Like, they don't

01:43:02   even have blogs. They just sort of, you know, like, you know, they post like—they get

01:43:08   like a picture of the Samsung Galaxy 10 a month before it comes out, and they just post

01:43:11   a picture on Twitter or something like that. Somebody a couple weeks ago just tweeted ambiguously

01:43:20   that, hmm, Pro iPhones, I don't know if that makes sense, you know, that they're

01:43:25   going to call the new iPhones, they're going to use the word "pro." And Gherman

01:43:31   obviously thinks so, too. That was part of the lead of his…

01:43:34   Yeah, he does.

01:43:35   So there's a couple of interesting stuff in here to talk about, but… what does it

01:43:42   say here? "Apple Incorporated is readying a clutch of new hardware for the coming weeks

01:43:46   and months, including "pro iPhones upgrades to iPads and its largest laptop in years."

01:43:50   I've been, so anybody who's over the last few years has been

01:43:58   wagering in Las Vegas on my predictions of Apple product names is bankrupt.

01:44:04   I haven't predicted the name of an Apple product in a long time because I and I've been leaning,

01:44:14   you know, endorsing calling the high-end app, iPhones Pro, whether they're just called iPhone

01:44:20   Pro or iPhone something Pro like iPhone 10 Pro or 11 Pro for years. And every time I bring it up,

01:44:28   people say, "Well, what's Pro, you know, there's nothing pro about an iPhone,

01:44:32   blah, blah, blah." And so far, I've been wrong. They've never used the word pro in an iPhone,

01:44:40   even though they now have iPad Pros to go along with MacBook Pros, which they've had

01:44:46   ever since they switched the name from PowerBook to MacBook back in 2006 or '07 when they switched

01:44:53   from PowerPC to Intel. And of course, the Mac Pro, which we're waiting with abated breath this fall,

01:45:03   so they have a pro version of all of those, but they don't have a pro version of the iPhone.

01:45:08   and they say, "Well, there's nothing pro about it. Pro means professional, and iPhones are for

01:45:13   everyone, even the best ones." I don't think that's what—my retort to that has been,

01:45:20   sometimes when Apple says pro, they literally mean professional. Mac Pro is the obvious—or

01:45:28   iMac Pro as well, right? The Mac Pro and iMac Pro are obviously meant for professionals. The

01:45:35   The only reason to buy an iMac Pro instead of a regular 5K iMac is if you have genuine

01:45:42   professional needs for the truly significant performance differences between…

01:45:48   agreed

01:45:49   Because a regular iMac is a very…

01:45:52   I've got one that's four years old and it is still…

01:45:56   There's nothing slow on it for me.

01:45:58   I don't do anything that ever makes the fan come on.

01:46:02   I don't do anything that ever makes the beach ball come up.

01:46:08   So you know, iMac Pro is obviously for genuine professionals.

01:46:14   The Mac Pro coming later this year, I don't know if it's a month, I don't know if it's

01:46:18   two months, I don't know if it'll be December 30th, obviously meant for truly professionals.

01:46:24   The Pro Display XDR that starts at $5,000 without a stand is truly meant not just for

01:46:34   professionals but for a very narrow swath of professionals.

01:46:39   If you get one of those, then I'll just stand behind the screen and hold it for you while

01:46:44   you were…

01:46:45   You know what?

01:46:48   People can make some… that might be a good way for neighborhood kids to make money.

01:46:51   If you want to save…

01:46:52   Just stand there.

01:46:53   a thousand dollar stand, you just pay a neighborhood kid to hold your monitor in front of you.

01:46:59   But I would say the MacBook Pros certainly are used by professionals, but are also used

01:47:07   by people who just want a MacBook Pro as their regular laptop. And for example, if one of

01:47:13   the things you want in a laptop is a 15-inch display as opposed to a 13-inch display, guess

01:47:19   you're getting a MacBook Pro, whether you have professional needs or not.

01:47:23   Tom Hanks (01h00s): But if you look at that though,

01:47:26   I think Apple's reasoning behind all of this is solid. If you're a student or you're somebody

01:47:35   that flies a lot, you're an executive, you just need to get some work done on the road.

01:47:39   Any of those other computers will suit your needs perfectly. Not just screen size, power wise,

01:47:47   everything else. Those computers are perfectly fine. They fit everything that you need.

01:47:52   A MacBook Pro, you know, that's what I use on a daily basis. And I love the Pro. I love it because

01:48:01   I don't really have to carry it around. I, you know, even when I do, I throw up my suitcase and

01:48:06   go and it's not that big of a deal. But, you know, yeah, you're right. If you want a 15 inch screen,

01:48:14   then you're going for a pro model.

01:48:17   - Sometimes what Apple means by pro is deluxe,

01:48:21   or better, or best, and they just don't, you know,

01:48:25   they just like the word pro for its connotations

01:48:28   to mean that.

01:48:29   And I would say the iPad Pro is the perfect example of that.

01:48:33   Where what's the difference between the just plain iPad,

01:48:36   or now that they've brought the name back,

01:48:38   the iPad Air, and the iPad Pro?

01:48:42   Now, there are some people who truly use an iPad in a professional way. There's artists

01:48:49   who do it for illustration. I told this story on my show a couple of weeks ago where,

01:48:53   earlier in July, my family, we were down in Florida doing the theme park stuff and we were

01:48:59   in Universal. And you go to a theme park and they have the caricature artists. You can sit down and

01:49:03   pay 20 bucks or whatever and they'll make a funny drawing of you. And they had a shaded pavilion

01:49:11   where there were three or four artists doing those. And three of them were doing it the

01:49:16   old-fashioned way on a piece of paper with colored pencils or crayons or whatever. And

01:49:20   the fourth was using a 13-inch iPad Pro. And I, you know, I didn't sit to get my caricature

01:49:29   taken. That's not my style. But I did ask the guy who was walking by and I just said,

01:49:33   "Hey, how do you like using this for that?" And he just turned to me and he said, "I

01:49:36   love it." I mean, and he was, I would say he was like 60 years old. And it seemed like

01:49:41   like maybe he'd been doing it, you know, he'd been doing this for a long time. Wasn't

01:49:45   like a young kid. And I, you know, I took a quick glance at the person he was drawing.

01:49:51   He was actually very talented. It was a very, very accurate and humorous, flattering caricature.

01:49:58   That's a professional use, right? That's totally pro.

01:50:00   Pete: Oh yeah, absolutely.

01:50:01   John: You know, this is a guy who, you know, for eight hours a day sits there and draws

01:50:05   people's pictures for money. I know there's a bunch—they don't even tell you about it anymore.

01:50:11   They used to make a big deal out of it. But every week, The New Yorker has an illustrated cover

01:50:18   that's part of the gimmick of The New Yorker. I know a lot of their regular stable of artists

01:50:23   do their work on the iPad Pro. You could be a professional who doesn't even use the pencil,

01:50:27   though. You could be a professional who does. A lot of our friends in this whole racket are

01:50:34   full-time on the iPad. Federico is obviously using his iPad in a truly professional sense.

01:50:44   But my wife has an iPad Pro. She has the big one, and she absolutely loves it. At first,

01:50:54   she really was reluctant, and she was like, "This is too big. This is too big." And now she's like,

01:50:57   "I can never go back." Once in a while, she'll pick up my iPad by accident. She'll be like,

01:51:01   What is this tiny thing? She doesn't use it in a professional sense. You know, just email,

01:51:09   email, iMessage, web browsing, games, you know, watching movies and TV shows. She just likes it.

01:51:15   She just likes the bigger screen. She likes the edge to edge. You know, I love that. Yeah. So you

01:51:22   can use it. You know, that's the ones where they mean deluxe. You can use it in a professional

01:51:26   sense, but there's very good reasons that somebody would buy an iPad Pro, even though they're never

01:51:31   going to use it in a professional sense at all. And I think that that same use of the word pro

01:51:35   would apply to the high end iPhones. Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that's very,

01:51:42   a very good way to look at how they're going to do things. So I guess so it's interesting,

01:51:51   because one of the things that seldom leak seldom if ever leaks the tooth to like the holiest of

01:51:58   of Holies and secretes of secrets at Apple are product names and prices because they

01:52:07   don't have to be pre-keynote event. They don't really have to be the circle of people who

01:52:16   knows what they are doesn't have to expand. Whereas stuff like the fact that everybody

01:52:23   seemingly "knows" that they're switching to a bigger camera thing on the back with

01:52:27   three cameras instead of two on the high end phones.

01:52:30   But because that comes out of the supply chain and the supply chain is tens of

01:52:34   thousands of people. Um,

01:52:37   but prices and names tend not to leak because that group is

01:52:42   like, they know how to keep their mouth shut.

01:52:44   I think that they should really include you and I in that group in the future,

01:52:50   you know? Uh, so he doesn't know the names.

01:52:54   he's using the word pro in quotes and he doesn't speculate as to what they're actually

01:52:58   going to call them. Like, is it going to be the iPhone 11 Pro and the iPhone 11 Pro Max?

01:53:05   Which is probably my guess. If I had to guess, my guess, and I know I want to reiterate here,

01:53:13   I have no little birdies or information on this. And I think my, like I said, five minutes

01:53:17   my track record on iPhone names will back that up that I don't have any kind of inside

01:53:25   information on this. But if I were to wager on what the names were going to be, I would

01:53:30   guess that the iPhone 10 are successor, which apparently they're going to make and the big

01:53:36   change is going to be that it's going to go from one camera to two cameras like today's

01:53:41   is 10 S's.

01:53:44   - Right.

01:53:45   - And be available in similar colors.

01:53:50   Germin says they're gonna add green,

01:53:51   which I didn't even remember they didn't have.

01:53:55   I thought they did have green.

01:53:56   They have enough colors where I thought

01:53:58   green was one of them.

01:53:59   I would guess they're just gonna call that phone

01:54:03   the iPhone 11, that's my guess.

01:54:05   It'll just be, that's the iPhone 11,

01:54:07   it's the standard iPhone 11, and for most people,

01:54:10   If you want a brand new iPhone,

01:54:12   that's the iPhone you should get.

01:54:13   I think that the XS, the 5.8 inch screen,

01:54:19   the smaller of the high-end ones,

01:54:21   which will get this new square three camera array,

01:54:26   would be the iPhone 11 Pro,

01:54:29   and that the big 6.5 gargantuan phone

01:54:32   would be the iPhone 11 Pro Max,

01:54:35   which sounds a bit like a mouthful

01:54:38   because now you've got four things,

01:54:40   iPhone 11 Pro Max. And on Twitter, people debating this have pointed that out that that's

01:54:48   just too much. But I don't think it really matters because it seems to me in Apple's

01:54:55   advertisements like for the iPhone XS where there's two sizes, they just advertise iPhone

01:55:02   XS. They just say iPhone XS, shot on iPhone XS or something like that. They show iPhone

01:55:08   10S's. And when they show the product photography in a commercial or a billboard, you can't

01:55:13   really tell if it's the 6.5 inch or the 5.8 because they kind of look the same. You

01:55:19   can't see, you don't know the scale. And they'll just say that and then they'll

01:55:24   use the max so that when you go in the store, you'll know, "Well, do I want the smaller

01:55:28   one or do I want the bigger one which is called max?" And I don't think people are confused

01:55:32   by that at all and I don't think it's much of a mouthful. I think the billboards and

01:55:37   like the commercials will just say iPhone 11 Pro.

01:55:41   - What do you like?

01:55:42   What size?

01:55:44   - Oh, I like the smaller one, the 5.8.

01:55:46   - Yeah, I like the bigger one.

01:55:47   - I could see it.

01:55:49   As my eyesight, as my close eyesight gets worse,

01:55:55   I can certainly see being able to blow up the text

01:55:58   a little bit and still see more stuff.

01:56:00   I mean, I'm on the fence.

01:56:00   Amy, again, switched last year.

01:56:03   She wasn't like I said,

01:56:05   "Hey, you should get the big one.

01:56:07   I wanna, you know, performing an experiment on her,

01:56:09   see if she likes it."

01:56:10   She wanted it.

01:56:11   And again, just like when she got the bigger iPad,

01:56:14   she hated it for a couple of days,

01:56:16   and now she's totally sold on it

01:56:19   and feels like it's no big deal,

01:56:22   can't believe she thought it was a big deal.

01:56:24   But she carries her phone in her purse, not in a pocket,

01:56:26   for the most part.

01:56:29   - I carry my phone in my pocket.

01:56:31   Obviously my pockets would be bigger,

01:56:33   But I just, you know, I don't mind the bigger size.

01:56:38   I actually like the bigger size,

01:56:42   but you know, my eyes for close-up are getting bad

01:56:47   and have been for years.

01:56:50   So I wear readers and I need those when I have the text,

01:56:55   even though I zoomed up the display a little bit,

01:56:59   it still helps to have it.

01:57:03   I mean, I don't wanna jack the font up all the way

01:57:05   so that I'm reading one word a line either.

01:57:08   So the bigger size to me is the way to go,

01:57:13   but everybody has their own preference.

01:57:15   - Yeah, so the other thing,

01:57:18   as soon as this naming discussion came up on Twitter,

01:57:20   the other obvious, not just going to,

01:57:24   and God Almighty, please don't let him go Roman numeral 11.

01:57:27   I'm so, oh my God, please just go one one.

01:57:31   I really can't imagine that they would go X1.

01:57:35   - I can't, I never even thought that they would do that.

01:57:37   - But the other obvious way that they could go

01:57:42   is the way that all the other Pro products are, right?

01:57:46   It's not the iPad 3 Pro, it's not the iPad 4 Pro,

01:57:50   it's not the MacBook, probably 17 Pro at this point.

01:57:54   It's just MacBook Pro, iPad Pro.

01:57:57   they could just call it iPhone Pro and iPhone Pro Max.

01:58:01   Now, I don't think they will do that,

01:58:05   and I almost think they can't do that.

01:58:08   In the abstract, that would be cleaner,

01:58:12   and it would be nicer, and it would be both.

01:58:14   It's less of a mouthful.

01:58:16   It would look better, I think,

01:58:18   and these numbers are starting to get unwieldy.

01:58:21   They're big numbers, and I think just calling it iPhone Pro

01:58:26   would be very elegant.

01:58:27   And again, and it would be more in line

01:58:31   with all of their other products

01:58:32   where it's just category name than the word pro.

01:58:36   So in the abstract, that would be better.

01:58:38   But in practice, the way they sell iPhones,

01:58:41   I don't think it works.

01:58:42   I think they need to keep numbering them

01:58:45   and adding letters to distinguish which one is the newest.

01:58:49   Because like when they come out with new iPad Pros,

01:58:53   they stop selling the old iPad Pros.

01:58:57   So after the new ones come out,

01:58:59   you go in and say, I want an iPad Pro,

01:59:01   you're getting the new one.

01:59:02   And you don't need, they don't have the old ones

01:59:04   at a lesser price point.

01:59:06   The lesser price point is occupied

01:59:08   by entirely different products.

01:59:10   The iPad Air, the just plain iPad, the iPad mini.

01:59:13   With the iPhone, they continued to sell

01:59:16   year old, two year old, three year old phones,

01:59:20   they continue to manufacture them for years to come. And I think what some people don't realize,

01:59:27   and I'm not even sure when I became fully aware of this, but for example, last year,

01:59:33   when the iPhone XS and XR debuted in September, they took the iPhone X from the year before out

01:59:42   of the lineup of the ones that they put up on the slide behind Phil Schiller. They took them out of

01:59:48   Apple stores, they took them off apple.com. So now on apple.com, you can buy an iPhone

01:59:55   10 s, you can buy a 10 r or you can buy an iPhone eight. But they still make iPhone 10s,

02:00:04   regular iPhone 10s, they still are in manufacturer and you can still buy them brand new, but

02:00:09   they Apple itself doesn't buy them. They're in the quote unquote channel. So you can go

02:00:14   go certain carriers, phone carriers around the world still sell them brand new. Best

02:00:19   Buy, for example, still sells them. You can go to BestBuy.com and buy a brand new iPhone

02:00:24   10. And that's not an iPhone 10 that has been sitting around for 11 months unsold. They

02:00:31   still make them. They just don't sell them for clarity of product line purposes. Apple

02:00:37   itself minimizes it. But the channel has phones that even Apple itself doesn't sell. And there

02:00:46   needs to be, I don't think it works, like it would obviously work for the first year

02:00:51   this year if they just called the brand new phones iPhone Pro because they're the only

02:00:55   ones called iPhone Pro. But then come next year, if the replacements are still called

02:01:01   iPhone Pro. Now you've got a year-old iPhone Pro being sold alongside a new iPhone Pro

02:01:07   and there's no distinction. And it doesn't work. That doesn't work. Now, in support documents,

02:01:14   like when you go to Apple.com and you want to find out about getting technical support

02:01:21   for your MacBook, they'll say MacBook Pro in parentheses 2015. And you can, I guess

02:01:30   you get the same thing when you go to the system profiler on your Mac to find out exactly

02:01:34   what model you have. So they'll use the model year for technical support purposes

02:01:40   to specify exactly which model you have and tell you the details of other identifying

02:01:45   details of what CPU it has, etc. But they're not going to sell phones like that. They're

02:01:50   not going to put billboards up that say, "iPhone Pro 2019."

02:01:54   (laughing)

02:01:56   - No, and the way you explained it earlier

02:02:01   is absolutely perfect, because if you think of an iPad Pro,

02:02:06   you have an iPad Pro.

02:02:07   Oh, is it this year's?

02:02:09   No, it's last year's.

02:02:10   Well, then there's your iPad, but it's still an iPad Pro.

02:02:14   And I like that naming convention.

02:02:16   Apple's naming has been very simple,

02:02:22   And I'm a big fan of it.

02:02:25   I wanna get an iPhone Max.

02:02:29   Well, here's an iPhone Max.

02:02:31   Do you need a specific year?

02:02:34   No, you're going to a store, I want an iPhone Max.

02:02:37   Love it.

02:02:39   - Well, I think it's-- - They need to continue that.

02:02:40   - iPhone Pro Max.

02:02:42   - iPhone Pro Max.

02:02:44   - Although it's starting to sound

02:02:45   like some kind of vitamin supplement.

02:02:47   (laughing)

02:02:49   - Say it real fast 10 times.

02:02:52   somebody else suggested going back to plus but plus I thought that Schiller

02:02:56   explained that that they switched from plus to max because it's only bigger

02:03:01   somebody disputes that and says they rewatch that segment of the preview you

02:03:05   know but when they had the plus phones the plus phones were more than just

02:03:10   bigger they had better cameras slightly better they were mostly the same like

02:03:14   the iPhone 8 versus 8 plus and the 7 versus 7 plus they were mostly the same

02:03:21   But the cameras were always slightly better in the plus ones were like they had image stabilization before

02:03:27   The smaller ones did and then the next year the smaller ones got image stabilization for still photos

02:03:33   But then the plus got image stabilization for video, you know, they were always a little step ahead

02:03:37   Whereas ever since last year with the iPhone X s and X s max they are literally spec for spec

02:03:44   Comparable except that the max is bigger. It has a bigger display and because it's bigger

02:03:49   it also does have a bigger battery and does get a little bit of extra battery life. But

02:03:54   in terms of camera performance, they are literally the exact same camera modules.

02:03:59   Well, and let's not forget that last year they also did something that blew my mind

02:04:04   that I thought was one of the best things they had done in a long time. And that's

02:04:08   include the same chip, the same processor in all three phones, which is what made the

02:04:16   iPhone XR such an incredible value.

02:04:19   Yes, it had the one camera, but my girlfriend's sister wrote, I don't know, maybe two weeks

02:04:27   ago and said, I know that there's probably a new iPhone coming out in the fall, but mine

02:04:35   is actually dead and I can't wait.

02:04:37   So I need to buy one.

02:04:40   What do you think of the iPhone Max?

02:04:42   And I said, go buy it.

02:04:44   iPhone Max is because you know, she's not a techie. She, she likes to take pictures.

02:04:50   Yeah. But she, she just needs something that's going to last and something that's good value.

02:04:55   So yeah, go buy the iPhone XR. It is none. You said max you meant the oh, I'm sorry.

02:05:01   You meant the 10. Yeah, the the the 10 are well, that's why and then I even said XR.

02:05:07   Yeah, now you're you're rubbing off on me here. I might need a beer soon. Well, that's

02:05:13   That's why I like the idea of just calling the new 10R, just call that iPhone 11 and

02:05:21   then call the other two at the higher price points with the extra cameras, the iPhone

02:05:26   11 Pros.

02:05:27   I like calling the 10R replacement just plain iPhone 11 because I truly believe that's the

02:05:35   iPhone most people should buy.

02:05:37   I really do.

02:05:40   And part of that is the cost. It's 250-ish or more dollars less, which is significant.

02:05:47   On a percentage basis, it's like 25% less. It's more than 25. It's like a third less

02:05:51   compared to the max size. You get a big screen. It is not OLED, but it is a great display.

02:06:01   This whole… And in some ways, I honestly feel that it's better than the OLED. I actually

02:06:07   think that… I know it doesn't have the super high contrast ratio, so it doesn't

02:06:14   show dark stuff as well, like if you're watching a dark movie or something like that.

02:06:19   But there's other things that I feel like an LCD screen is actually better and doesn't

02:06:25   have… They have to do a lot of stuff to get that OLED to not have a blue tint or something

02:06:29   like that. I think it's a fantastic screen. I think the fact that it's 2x retina instead

02:06:35   of 3x is a total non-issue because of the way OLED works at a sub-pixel level, 3x isn't

02:06:43   that much better than 2x with the weird sub-pixel layout of OLED compared to an LCD. It's a

02:06:50   great display. And most people, typical people I know, never zoom on their camera. So having

02:06:57   just that one camera lens, it's the one that they want to use anyway. Like, so Amy has

02:07:02   the XS Max and she doesn't take any pictures at 2x. She takes all of her pictures. She

02:07:07   does take a lot of pictures. She takes them all at 1x.

02:07:10   And I don't take any that is either. Yeah. And and supposedly the rumor is that this

02:07:15   iPhone 11, the replacement for the 10 R is going to have the second camera anyway. Now

02:07:20   it just won't have the third extra wide angle lens. I really think just calling it the iPhone

02:07:27   and saying this is the standard model for most people and the pro is if you want to

02:07:32   spend more. I think that is perfect branding and I think really any way to emphasize to

02:07:40   somebody who's unsure because they'd see that these other ones are more expensive and their

02:07:46   gut is telling them I don't think I need anything. I don't care if it's stainless steel instead

02:07:50   of aluminum. I don't see any difference in the display. I don't care if the black bezel

02:07:57   around the edge to edge display is a millimeter or two bigger on this one than that one.

02:08:05   I don't, you know, anybody with that gut feeling of I just don't see why this phone is worth

02:08:10   $300 more than this one, but in the back of my head I'm worried that I'm buying the junior

02:08:15   iPhone or something like that. Any kind of branding by just calling it the iPhone 11

02:08:20   to put those people at ease and say, yeah, this is the standard iPhone for most people.

02:08:25   I think that's fantastic branding

02:08:27   and really would give people confidence that,

02:08:30   yeah, I feel like this is the phone I want

02:08:31   and yeah, I'm gonna get it.

02:08:33   - So it kind of feels like last year,

02:08:35   if you take last year's phone,

02:08:36   okay, the iPhone XS is the standard model,

02:08:39   then we have the iPhone XS Max.

02:08:42   - Right.

02:08:43   - Or the XS, why can't I keep doing that?

02:08:46   - I don't know, Jim.

02:08:47   - I don't know.

02:08:48   - You better get on it.

02:08:48   - Okay.

02:08:49   - Better get a beer.

02:08:51   - I'm gonna have to soon.

02:08:52   Stupid, I drank a coffee before we started.

02:08:54   now, you know, the the iPhone 10x 10 s max. Oh, but then we have this other one that's lower. Yeah.

02:09:04   And you're saying that that the way that you're doing it would get rid of that. Yeah, here, here

02:09:09   is the standard edition. By the way, we have two that are higher, we don't have any that are lower

02:09:15   than this. Yeah, this is it. I agree. Standard, that'd be good. Standard and Pro, I think is the

02:09:20   the way to go. In the same way with the MacBook lineup where the MacBook Air isn't, it's

02:09:25   just sort of like that's the standard. I mean, that's when they reintroduce the MacBook

02:09:29   Air last October. That was really more or less the way they pitched it as this is the

02:09:34   MacBook for most people. This is the most beloved MacBook we've ever made. It's the

02:09:39   best selling model. It is the one that people, this is the shape and the form factor that

02:09:43   people think of when they think of a MacBook. This is the MacBook Air, you know. I really

02:09:49   do think that using the word pro in that way to emphasize this is extra. Yes, we love it.

02:09:55   We support it. We stand behind the higher price point and some of our customers really

02:10:00   want the extra features. They're going to love this extra wide angle lens. You know,

02:10:06   they're not saying don't buy it, but they're saying this is, you know, this is the standard

02:10:09   one. This is the deluxe one and I think that's perfect branding. So I really hope and think

02:10:14   maybe this year I've got it right. iPhone 11 pro and just iPhone 11.

02:10:18   I'm with you. What else do we got here? So the pro models are, you know, everybody, this

02:10:26   is leaked months and months ago, maybe even a year ago that they're going to switch to

02:10:29   a big square thing on the back, which will have a third camera lens and maybe some other

02:10:34   sensors for depth or something like that to fill in the square. That's cool. I can't wait

02:10:41   to see it. I feel like the fact that we know that that's coming with this extra wide angle

02:10:46   lens doesn't tell us the story because I feel like there's it's how it combines with the

02:10:51   software and what the software is going to do. Like when you're shooting with the regular

02:10:58   default lens, what is the iPhone going to do with that extra information from that wide

02:11:06   angle lens at the same time? I feel like I just I would be shocked if they're not using

02:11:12   that to do something in that field of computational photography to make just even when you're

02:11:19   not shooting at the wide angle that they're going to use the information from the wide

02:11:22   angle lens to to make that photo better in the same way that when you shoot portrait

02:11:29   mode you're using the two X lens but they use information from the one X lens to help

02:11:35   get that depth.

02:11:38   - Well, and according to what Gernan said,

02:11:40   they're gonna use like three photos.

02:11:43   - Right.

02:11:44   - And try and bring everything together.

02:11:46   - Right.

02:11:47   - And you know, that's, it's, I think a lot of what we

02:11:51   expect from Apple in a few ways with the technology

02:11:54   for machine learning and bringing in, you know,

02:11:59   these extra cameras.

02:12:01   I don't care about the, how big the camera is on the back.

02:12:06   Again, that's like a dirty credit card.

02:12:08   I just don't care.

02:12:09   I use a camera on my iPhone very similar

02:12:16   to how Amy uses hers.

02:12:19   I mean, I take out my iPhone and I put it up

02:12:23   and I snap a picture and that's it.

02:12:26   I'm basically done.

02:12:29   The better tools that Apple gives me

02:12:32   to be able to take that picture,

02:12:35   the better my pictures are going to be.

02:12:36   - Right.

02:12:37   The more stuff that they do computationally automatically at the moment you press the shutter and that you don't have to go into edit mode.

02:12:43   You don't have to do anything. It just it just happens.

02:12:47   The only thing I ever want to use edit mode for is to crop.

02:12:51   Yeah. Well, you know, other than that, I really don't need to to do anything because Apple's pictures, the way that the cameras go right now, take a great picture.

02:13:02   I can go and take a picture of a bee on a flower

02:13:05   or something and it looks just gorgeous

02:13:08   or sunset when we're in Mexico or whatever it is.

02:13:11   And they just look great.

02:13:13   And that's the way that I think that

02:13:15   that's what Apple needs to deliver to me.

02:13:16   I understand that there are a lot of other things

02:13:19   that I can do.

02:13:20   I just don't want to have to do them.

02:13:23   - Yeah, there's an interesting tidbit in here too

02:13:25   that says that they're going to have quote,

02:13:27   "significantly upgraded video recording capabilities,

02:13:30   getting them closer to professional video cameras,

02:13:32   and that's all it says.

02:13:34   Other than that, you're gonna be able to retouch

02:13:36   and apply effects and colors and reframe and crop video

02:13:40   and stuff like that.

02:13:41   But I also think, I very strongly suspect

02:13:44   that with this A13 system on a chip,

02:13:48   'cause that's the number they're up to,

02:13:50   it's a big, no secret there

02:13:51   that they're gonna call it the A13,

02:13:53   but those chips are getting so much faster,

02:13:55   especially not just the CPUs,

02:13:58   but like the GPU capabilities that they need

02:14:01   for this on the fly stuff.

02:14:03   Like one of the most amazing things

02:14:04   about last year's cameras was that

02:14:07   when you're shooting at like 30 frames per second,

02:14:13   the camera, you know, video,

02:14:14   the camera is still taking 60 frames per second

02:14:17   and using the every other frame

02:14:20   that they're not even using, you know,

02:14:22   they're still writing 30 frames to disk,

02:14:23   but they're using, they're shooting 60

02:14:25   Using the other frames to like reduce the noise in the and they're all live not like oh you shoot the video

02:14:32   And then in the background, you know the iPhone processes

02:14:36   It's all live you hit this hit the shutter shoot your video. It's doing it every single frame

02:14:40   the I

02:14:43   Can't help but think that they are definitely going to do stuff along those lines using the extra lens on the camera

02:14:50   To get more information, you know that they'll be shooting

02:14:53   120 frames per second they'll shoot 60 with the one lens and 60 with the other and combine the data to get

02:14:59   To get you know a better low-light capabilities for video and stuff like that

02:15:04   I mean because that's one thing that you can really tell

02:15:07   with the iPhone is like when you're in like a restaurant or someplace dark and and

02:15:11   It's like I wonder if I can get a picture here

02:15:14   And you turn on your iPhone camera, and you're shooting a still and say yeah, I can totally get a picture

02:15:18   This is amazing, but if you switch to video it like goes black

02:15:20   And it's like you can hardly see anything.

02:15:22   So getting video to get low light

02:15:26   is really tough optically,

02:15:29   but I feel like they can,

02:15:30   the way they're gonna get there is computationally.

02:15:33   - Low light has been my thing for many years,

02:15:36   being able to get good low light pictures at concerts.

02:15:39   - Yeah, totally.

02:15:40   - And to be able to take down the,

02:15:45   or I don't know, process the lights coming from the stage

02:15:50   so that you can actually get a decent picture

02:15:53   with all that foreground being so black.

02:15:55   - And having those stage lights be so bright.

02:15:58   - Yeah, so that's a real problem.

02:16:03   And I don't blame Apple that you can't always

02:16:06   get a great shot from that because damn,

02:16:09   that's gotta be one of the toughest pictures

02:16:12   to try and take.

02:16:13   - Anyway, I don't think this is the easiest prediction

02:16:16   in the world to make, but I strongly suspect

02:16:19   that the camera section of the September Apple event

02:16:23   is going to be a huge chunk of the iPhone event.

02:16:27   - I would think.

02:16:28   - Just like it has been the last few years.

02:16:30   And if anything, growing bigger and bigger.

02:16:33   I mean, they're never gonna change the name of the product.

02:16:35   It's gonna be the iPhone

02:16:36   until they stop making the damn things.

02:16:38   But if you think about what it is,

02:16:40   if you're gonna name one thing

02:16:41   that of all the hundreds of things an iPhone can do,

02:16:45   the better name for it at this point would be the iCamera.

02:16:48   the camera, you know, people use the camera way more than they talk on the

02:16:51   friggin phone. Oh, yeah. Or at least they're happier to do it. Uh, what else

02:16:54   is here? So one of the cool features, uh, again, a lot of this isn't original

02:16:58   to Garmin. I've seen all this stuff floating around, but he's, you know,

02:17:01   assembled it all in one place is, uh, wireless charging for the wireless

02:17:06   charging air pods. So in other words, you could put your iPhone down and then

02:17:10   put your air pod. If you have the wireless charging air pod case, put it

02:17:14   on the back and it'll charge.

02:17:16   - That's a cool feature. - Love that.

02:17:17   - Samsung has something like that

02:17:19   where it'll actually charge other phones.

02:17:21   So, I'll point that out before somebody else points it out

02:17:26   that Samsung has something like that.

02:17:28   - Yes.

02:17:29   - But just charging the AirPods alone would be pretty cool.

02:17:32   And it shouldn't take much power.

02:17:33   It shouldn't really deplete your phone much

02:17:35   because the AirPods seem to charge,

02:17:38   don't really take much of a charge to get powered up.

02:17:41   - Yeah, and it shouldn't take,

02:17:43   I mean, it's not gonna be as fast

02:17:44   as plugging it into a charger,

02:17:46   but it should be good enough to get a charge in.

02:17:51   - Like if you're out and about

02:17:52   and you get that sad little bloop, bloop.

02:17:54   - Yeah. (laughs)

02:17:56   Yeah.

02:17:57   - And you got like five minutes to go on a podcast.

02:17:59   It's like, oh no.

02:18:00   More shatter resistant, supposedly.

02:18:04   I don't know what the deal is with that,

02:18:06   but I guess some kind of upgrade to the glass.

02:18:08   Here's the thing that I'm excited about,

02:18:11   is it says at least some of the colors.

02:18:14   So he obviously doesn't know if it's all of them

02:18:16   or whatever, but that some of them are going to have

02:18:18   a matte finish on the back as opposed

02:18:20   to the existing glossy finish.

02:18:22   - I would love that.

02:18:23   - I would love that.

02:18:25   My least favorite thing about the iPhone X and XS

02:18:28   two years into this is that they feel the same

02:18:31   on both sides.

02:18:32   And I have long been somebody who carries my iPhones naked

02:18:37   without a case.

02:18:38   I've used a case this year more with the iPhone XS

02:18:44   than I have with all other iPhones combined.

02:18:46   - I still don't use the case.

02:18:49   - I don't have one on now, I've taken it off,

02:18:51   but while vacationing and like I said,

02:18:55   going to theme parks and stuff like that,

02:18:57   with my hands sweaty in the Florida heat

02:18:59   and stuff like that, and just wanting,

02:19:02   you know, and with shorts, you know,

02:19:05   shorts have floppier pockets than jeans.

02:19:07   You know, and jeans, I always carry,

02:19:09   you know, for obvious reasons,

02:19:10   I carry it with the screen pointing in at my thigh,

02:19:14   for protection's sake.

02:19:15   Like if something does hit my phone,

02:19:17   I'd rather have the back crack than the front crack.

02:19:20   So I just can take a guess.

02:19:23   But there are just times when it's on the table or whatever,

02:19:26   and you pick it up and you're not quite sure.

02:19:28   And I have the black one, of course,

02:19:29   'cause that's what I always buy.

02:19:31   So you can't really tell.

02:19:32   It would be nice if there was no way to be confused

02:19:36   which side was up.

02:19:37   And the camera bump alone isn't really enough.

02:19:39   So a matte finish both to distinguish by feel which side is which and just to make it less

02:19:47   slippery would be a very welcome change to me.

02:19:50   I just think the matte finish is kind of cool.

02:19:53   Yeah.

02:19:54   Yeah.

02:19:55   To be honest, you know, on top of all of the stuff that you mentioned, I just think it's

02:19:59   kind of cool.

02:20:00   Yeah.

02:20:01   I'm curious to see what they come up with.

02:20:03   Of all the iPhones I've ever bought, and I've bought one every year, the only one I regret

02:20:08   that I feel like I bought the wrong color was the the jet black iPhone 7 and I always

02:20:16   buy black when I'm offered so it's the the decision matrix has always been very simple

02:20:23   get the black one except with the iPhone 7 there were two there was jet black and matte

02:20:28   black and so for the first time ever I had to make a decision and I went jet black because

02:20:34   I guess I thought it looked cooler but that jet black one even though it wasn't glass

02:20:37   It was aluminum sort of had the problems that it wasn't slippery in my opinion

02:20:41   But it still was hard to sort of tell by feel and in hindsight. I really kind of wish I got the matte one

02:20:46   I think the matte is was a cooler. I got to I was too enamored with the

02:20:51   shininess

02:20:53   Like a crow right whereas. I think it fits. I think matte finished fits my style better. I will say this I've long been

02:21:00   Someone who carries my iPhone naked without a case. I just like the way it feels better

02:21:06   I like that it's as thin as possible. I like being able to touch the buttons directly

02:21:09   But I've used a case with my iPhone XS this year

02:21:13   more than I've used a case with all other iPhones combined and it's

02:21:17   specifically for the combination of grippiness and feel

02:21:22   The only time I've ever used a case

02:21:25   With an iPhone is when they these were older iPhones

02:21:31   When battery was more of an issue than it is now and I had one of those

02:21:35   those battery charging cases.

02:21:38   - Yeah, I gotcha.

02:21:38   Yeah, I hear you.

02:21:39   - That's the only time that I ever had a case

02:21:42   and that was more out of necessity than anything else.

02:21:46   You know, they would almost get through the day,

02:21:50   but not quite.

02:21:51   I just, you know, for me,

02:21:53   the battery case was just a no brainer.

02:21:56   One thing I sometimes forget is I forget,

02:22:01   or not that I forget, but it just doesn't occur to me

02:22:04   I forget that you can manually put your phone

02:22:07   into low power mode, i.e. yellow battery mode.

02:22:11   You know, it automatically kicks in when you get to 20%.

02:22:14   But that mode really works.

02:22:17   A couple of weeks ago, I was somewhere where I had to wait

02:22:20   for a very long time, like a doctor's office type situation.

02:22:24   And you know, typical big office building

02:22:28   where you don't get good cell reception inside

02:22:32   And I'm waiting and I'm waiting and it was like first thing of the day. So I started

02:22:37   with near 100% on the iPhone and it wasn't too long and I noticed I was already down

02:22:43   to 80% or 78% or something like that. And the phone felt really warm, which is a bad

02:22:48   sign in terms of battery life. And I knew I had a lot longer to wait and didn't bring

02:22:54   a charger, didn't bring a battery pack. And I thought, "Oh, I'll put it in low power

02:22:58   mode, put it in low power mode, went right back to wasting all of my time on Twitter

02:23:02   and doing all of the exact same things that had just used up 20% of my battery in a snap

02:23:10   of a finger. And I used it and used it and used it and it was still at like 74%. The

02:23:17   difference is dramatic. I don't know how much stuff it turns off or whatever, but actually

02:23:21   using it, you don't really seem to notice it. I know that there are people out there

02:23:26   just keep their phone in low power mode all day. They just keep it on from the start of

02:23:30   the day. So there's my tip of the day is don't forget about low power mode. Don't

02:23:34   wait till it gets to 20%. If you're ever in a situation where you feel like your battery

02:23:38   is draining too fast, put it in low power mode. It really, really does save it. And

02:23:42   the other thing I noticed that day waiting is that my phone cooled off too, even though

02:23:46   I didn't stop using it. Something happens.

02:23:50   Low power mode tip of the day. Yeah

02:23:52   What else is on German's rumor list?

02:23:56   Mac pros

02:24:00   Yeah, he doesn't know anything about him though. I mean

02:24:03   We know they're coming. I mean and they've already announced it

02:24:06   I mean the only the only thing really left to wonder about with the Mac pros is a when is it gonna ship?

02:24:12   Be what are the higher end configs going to cost all they've told us is the starting point and then a big one to me

02:24:19   is, are they going to come out with an Apple branded reasonably priced display? And which

02:24:25   I guess no, I guess now that LG has updated their 5K display, that's probably Apple's

02:24:31   answer for people who just want a "normal" display that comes with the stand. But it

02:24:38   would make my day and I know it would make an awful lot of people happy if in addition

02:24:43   to the $6,000, $7,000 Pro Display XDR if they just came out with a plain old Pro Display

02:24:49   that just had that iMac panel in a display that looks like the Pro Display.

02:24:55   Yep.

02:24:56   iPad, they say there's new ones coming out. It doesn't really have a lot of details.

02:25:03   No. And same with Apple Watch AirPods and HomePod. Although HomePod seems weird though.

02:25:10   That's interesting.

02:25:12   Why do you think it's weird?

02:25:13   Well, that they would drop it to two tweeters down from seven in the current HomePod.

02:25:22   Well, A, I wonder if that's true.

02:25:28   Is it a replacement HomePod or is it a new lower priced HomePod?

02:25:32   Yeah, I think so.

02:25:34   They keep...

02:25:35   Yeah.

02:25:36   Like, it would make a lot of sense to me to go from six tweeters...

02:25:38   Is it six tweeters or seven tweeters?

02:25:40   It would make a lot of sense if they come out with a HomePod with only two, if that's

02:25:46   a $129 or $149 HomePod or even better, a $99 HomePod. That'd be great. The lower the price

02:25:56   they can get it to get more people to get one and if it still sounds really good for

02:26:01   what it is, that'd be great. But I can't see how, no matter how good their audio engineers

02:26:07   are I cannot see how a two tweeter home pod could sound as good as as the seven.

02:26:13   There's no way that it can.

02:26:14   I don't think that that a two tweeter home now there is a lot of things that these guys

02:26:20   can do in software to make and make the the speakers and make everything sound good.

02:26:28   You know between tweeters and woofers and speakers and the drivers and everything else

02:26:33   there's a lot they can do to make these sound good.

02:26:36   So I'm not saying that they won't sound good.

02:26:38   I just, they're not going to sound as good.

02:26:41   I love my HomePod.

02:26:43   I use my HomePod all the time,

02:26:44   just because it sounds so damn good.

02:26:48   You know?

02:26:49   - Yeah.

02:26:50   - And I--

02:26:50   - Do you have it paired?

02:26:51   Do you have it paired with another one?

02:26:52   - No, I wish I did.

02:26:53   I wish I get, I should get another one.

02:26:56   I would love to have them paired.

02:26:57   - I know that it's a lot of money to get two,

02:27:00   but we've got two in the kitchen

02:27:02   and it is more than twice as good.

02:27:04   It is truly remarkable.

02:27:07   And I know that the financial outlay to get to

02:27:11   is a pretty significant thing that's not like,

02:27:14   if you're doing it like we are in the kitchen,

02:27:16   it's not like your home entertainment system

02:27:18   and all of a sudden you're spending five or 600 bucks

02:27:21   to get two of these things.

02:27:22   But it really does sound more than twice as good.

02:27:26   It is truly rather remarkable.

02:27:29   And it really, really, I don't have the best ears

02:27:34   for stuff like that, but it really hides the source.

02:27:38   It just feels like the room is full of music, you know?

02:27:40   And it doesn't feel like they're coming from two spots.

02:27:43   It's just full of music.

02:27:45   Anyway, Marco and I, a couple of weeks ago on this show,

02:27:49   were speculating and wondering, you know,

02:27:52   is HomePod something Apple might even drop, you know,

02:27:56   the way they got out of the WiFi router business

02:27:58   with airports, just because it maybe hasn't taken off

02:28:02   and they want to concentrate on what to hit.

02:28:04   The fact that there's even, you know, that Germin is saying that they're working on a new one

02:28:07   Would certainly alleviate that worry and I really hope they don't because I love the product I really think it's great

02:28:14   I think the potential is there obviously, you know, they need to keep banging on Siri to make Siri better and better

02:28:20   but the audio quality of the home pod is is

02:28:23   Really exceptional yeah, and it's just so hard to convey the only way you can you know

02:28:30   the only way you can tell is to listen to it, you know, yeah and

02:28:33   And the HomePod is, when you're talking about should they or will they at some point drop

02:28:41   the HomePod, I think a lot of that depends on where they see the hub.

02:28:46   You know, is the hub something like the Apple TV or is the hub going to be Siri and the

02:28:53   HomePod and the way that HomePod talks to the house.

02:28:55   And you know, to me, that's where a lot of this is going to end up coming from.

02:29:02   For sound, the HomePod is absolutely brilliant.

02:29:06   And the fact that you can talk to it and give Siri very simple commands to control

02:29:14   your music and to skip songs or raise or lower the volume or to play something is great.

02:29:21   I was doing some work around the house on the weekend and just said,

02:29:26   "Siri, play some classic rock."

02:29:30   and put the volume up by 10%.

02:29:34   Perfect.

02:29:35   Love it.

02:29:37   - Hey, let's take a break, and I'll thank our third

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02:32:09   What else is on our agenda? I think that's it for the Garmin report, right? That's it

02:32:12   - I think so. - For the major stuff.

02:32:14   - If I was gonna get a free domain name,

02:32:15   I think I'd take Daring Fireball.

02:32:17   - Yeah, yeah, well, that might be taken.

02:32:21   - It might be.

02:32:21   - Last thing I have here, I got a couple of questions

02:32:25   from listener Mike Fleagle.

02:32:26   I didn't ask for a Q&A episode,

02:32:28   but he gave me one unsolicited.

02:32:30   Speculating, I mean, we're getting close.

02:32:33   I suspect, do you think at the September event,

02:32:36   now we know that we're gonna get iPhones.

02:32:39   I mean, that's just a given.

02:32:40   - Right.

02:32:41   We're probably going to get the new Apple Watch because I believe in the last ever since Apple Watch has gotten on a fall schedule

02:32:47   The watches come out at the phone event

02:32:49   So I would be very surprised

02:32:53   I would be surprised if there were not new Apple Watches

02:32:57   And if there are new Apple Watches, which I expect I would expect them to debut at this September event

02:33:05   Do you think they will use the September event to unveil the rest of their services?

02:33:11   Initiative in other words tell us tell us what?

02:33:15   Apple arcade is going to cost tell us what?

02:33:19   These various things that they have told us about at that services event a couple of months ago

02:33:26   But didn't tell us what they're going to cost. Here's what I expect in in September

02:33:30   iPhone 4 for hardware

02:33:34   Anything else including watch even though it makes perfect sense everything else for hardware for me is

02:33:41   Extra that's that's just gravy hardware

02:33:46   watch HomePod

02:33:49   AirPods Mac

02:33:51   So the only thing that I really expect is

02:33:53   Phone and that's an obvious one the other thing that I expect

02:33:59   Besides iOS, Mac OS, you know, the final versions, they're going to announce when they're going to be available

02:34:05   is all of the information including pricing and availability of all of their services.

02:34:14   I'm, they have so many services. I think I'm forgetting one. So there's

02:34:18   Apple Arcade

02:34:20   which, rumor, rumor, rumor

02:34:23   broken by

02:34:25   Hacker extraordinaire you gee Rambo writes at 9 to 5 Mac somehow he Apple employees are testing

02:34:31   The arcade service and somehow one of them

02:34:36   Gave him pre-release access and he started poking at the API's and

02:34:42   Figured from one of the API's that at least at the moment

02:34:47   Apple was planning to charge

02:34:49   $4.99 a month for Apple Arcade.

02:34:52   - That sounds right to me.

02:34:53   - A lot of people were expecting $9.99.

02:34:56   $4.99 is, and again, never be surprised

02:35:01   when Apple charges more than you were hoping for

02:35:03   for a product, right?

02:35:04   - Yeah, but I'll be honest, $4.99 sounds right to me.

02:35:10   - Well, because these services are a

02:35:14   a quantity game, right?

02:35:19   And again, Apple doesn't play by other companies' rules.

02:35:22   So Netflix, of course, and Hulu, are always trying

02:35:26   to get more people to sign up.

02:35:28   And yes, Netflix has raised their rate,

02:35:30   a couple of bucks here, a couple of bucks there.

02:35:33   Over the years, the cost of a regular,

02:35:36   standard Netflix subscription has gone up.

02:35:38   But for the most part, they're primarily concerned

02:35:41   not on charging a huge premium for one family

02:35:46   to have a Netflix subscription,

02:35:47   but to get as many people as possible signed up.

02:35:50   They're really going for that.

02:35:51   And I just think that's just the way

02:35:53   that the services thing works.

02:35:55   So, $4.99 for Apple Arcade feels like,

02:35:59   I feel like it's either gonna be $4.99 or $9.99,

02:36:04   and $4.99 to me is gonna get people to cheer.

02:36:08   And they'll be like, "Ooh," and they'll be like,

02:36:11   "Oh, definitely sign it up."

02:36:12   - If I was making a bet, I'd go for $4.99.

02:36:16   - Yeah, and I really, when that leaked, I wrote,

02:36:20   and I really think, especially at $4.99,

02:36:23   that in addition to just being a popular service,

02:36:26   that I think an awful lot of people will sign up for,

02:36:28   because boy, oh boy, an awful lot of people play games on,

02:36:32   especially on iOS devices.

02:36:34   And if this helps gaming on the Mac and Apple TV,

02:36:39   as you just said, that's gravy, in my opinion.

02:36:42   if it makes gaming and puts more popular games on the Mac,

02:36:47   and if it can somehow reinvigorate gaming on Apple TV,

02:36:50   which really seems like a wasted opportunity

02:36:52   given how powerful the Apple TV,

02:36:56   and especially the Apple TV 4K are for a casual to,

02:37:01   they're obviously not gaming PCs,

02:37:04   but they're really pretty powerful compared to something,

02:37:09   even more compared to something successful

02:37:11   like the Nintendo Switch.

02:37:12   And it just hasn't taken off in my opinion,

02:37:16   because they don't ship with a controller

02:37:18   and because they insist on, up to this point,

02:37:23   that games be playable without a controller.

02:37:27   And there's just certain types of games

02:37:29   where you just cannot use the stupid remote control

02:37:31   that comes with Apple TV to play the game.

02:37:33   You just, this is not enough.

02:37:35   If they could get on top of that and turn Apple TV

02:37:39   into a Switch-like platform for games, that's just gravy.

02:37:43   But obviously, the bread and butter of Apple Arcade

02:37:46   is the iOS, it's iPad and iPhone.

02:37:49   And people already spend, they already make a lot of money

02:37:51   on that, getting their 30% or 15% on the recurring stuff.

02:37:56   I think that at $4.99, and if they can get an awful,

02:38:02   a lot of exclusive games, 'cause my understanding

02:38:05   of the way Arcade works, is going to work,

02:38:06   is that the games in Apple Arcade

02:38:08   are going to be exclusive to Arcade.

02:38:12   So it's not like this is a way

02:38:14   to get some of your favorite games from the App Store

02:38:17   that you normally would have to buy or do free to play.

02:38:20   They're lining up developers to create games

02:38:25   exclusive to Apple Arcade that you won't be able to get

02:38:30   just by, yeah, you won't be able to get them on Android.

02:38:34   you won't be able to get them on other platforms

02:38:37   and you won't be able to just buy it for $5 one time

02:38:41   in the app store.

02:38:42   It's you subscribe to arcade to get these games.

02:38:46   I think that not only do I think it could be very popular

02:38:50   and from what I've been told from some people in the know,

02:38:55   they are, this is an A team effort at Apple's part

02:39:01   to get top game developers on board.

02:39:06   And that there's, and no expense spared,

02:39:11   that they are, when they say that they're putting money,

02:39:14   giving money to developers, not giving,

02:39:16   but that the deals they're working out involve developers.

02:39:20   They're supporting developers with large budgets

02:39:24   to make these games or to finish these games

02:39:27   and to do things that are expensive,

02:39:30   like, I forget how many languages,

02:39:35   I mean, I don't think this is officially known,

02:39:36   but it, like, all the games in Arcade are gonna have,

02:39:41   I don't know, a dozen languages supported around the world,

02:39:44   including right-to-left languages, left-to-right.

02:39:47   That stuff costs a lot of money, and some games,

02:39:50   you know, it's more than just the start screen

02:39:52   where there's, you know, well, translate the word start

02:39:56   and high score and stuff like that.

02:39:58   You know, there's a lot of games where there's,

02:39:59   you know, even like character acting, right?

02:40:03   You're going to have to hire 12 sets of actors to do the voices or something

02:40:06   like that. They're, they're really pumping.

02:40:10   But they want it done. Yeah. They want it done, right? This is,

02:40:13   and I really think not only could it be popular,

02:40:16   but I think it could really disrupt the iOS gaming industry,

02:40:20   which right now financially is dominated by what I call pay to

02:40:25   win games like candy crush. And I know that the, you know,

02:40:29   to pay to play or something like that is the official term, but I call them pay to win.

02:40:33   I think I stole it from Ben Thompson. But the gist is games with in-app purchases where

02:40:39   it doesn't matter if you're even good at the game, you're going to have to pay a couple

02:40:45   of bucks at least every couple days to keep going, to be competitive. And there's the

02:40:52   battle games that are like that. There's the Candy Crush type games. There's all sorts

02:40:56   of games. And I know that they've de-emphasized the top grossing stuff in the App Store and

02:41:02   they just have top free and it's sort of an edit, more of an editorial, like here's what

02:41:08   we at the App Store think are some of the best new games. But if they had the top grossing,

02:41:15   and when they last did, they're all dominated by these free or pay-to-win games, which in

02:41:21   In my opinion, is another ethically sketchy area where there's sort of a casino mindset.

02:41:27   They're really not that different psychologically from like a slot machine where they're designed

02:41:32   to keep you going and designed to keep you pumping $3 here, $4 there for a bag of gems

02:41:40   or whatever the hell you're buying. The fact that Apple Arcade is going to have none of

02:41:46   that, that that's all forbidden, that you pay $5 a month hopefully or $10 a month, whatever

02:41:51   the cost is and you get the whole game all of the game and you know if extra levels come

02:41:57   out for you know new levels or new worlds or whatever the game has four months from

02:42:01   now you just get them that could really really change the behavior of people and what they

02:42:08   pay because if you're already paying 20 bucks a month 30 bucks a month on in-app purchases

02:42:15   for the games you do play and you could switch to paying five bucks a month and never even

02:42:20   and have the nagging guilt in your head,

02:42:22   like, ah, I'm kinda pissing away money on this, you know.

02:42:25   And the games occupy, or there's plenty of games

02:42:28   to choose from, and it occupies all of the free time

02:42:30   that you wanna be playing games on your devices.

02:42:32   Well, why would you ever pay the play to win games again?

02:42:37   - Yeah, I agree.

02:42:38   - I really think this could change things

02:42:40   really significantly. - These games are supposed

02:42:42   to be, these are top-notch graphics,

02:42:47   top-notch working, taking care or taking advantage

02:42:51   of all the technologies and the processor

02:42:54   and everything else.

02:42:55   You can't get any better than what these games are.

02:42:59   - So what else is coming?

02:43:00   There's of course Apple TV+,

02:43:02   which is their original content,

02:43:05   which is the biggest question mark, right?

02:43:10   Because Netflix is the king of the mountain.

02:43:15   Hulu is fairly well established. HBO is coming out with their thing. I forget what it's

02:43:21   called, but you can also pay to get regular HBO without having a cable subscription and

02:43:29   you get all of the movies that HBO has and all of the HBO shows that have ever come out.

02:43:34   You can go all the way back to The Sopranos and watch all The Sopranos. They've got

02:43:37   these big, big libraries. And of course, the big one that's coming out soon is Disney

02:43:43   Plus, which is also coming out with apparently a huge library of content because Disney has

02:43:50   this giant archive of family movies and TV shows, etc. And Apple TV Plus is coming with

02:43:58   like 10 shows. It's not a mountainous library of content. It is a very hand selected. And

02:44:09   And as the years go on, five, 10 years from now,

02:44:12   you know, like, so like the one,

02:44:14   I'm really looking forward to this one

02:44:15   called The Morning Show with Jennifer Aniston

02:44:18   and Reese Ritherspoon.

02:44:19   'Cause I just love shows about shows.

02:44:23   One of my all time favorite shows of all time

02:44:25   is the Larry Sanders show, you know,

02:44:27   the show about a talk show.

02:44:29   So I just love the idea of a show about a show.

02:44:32   I think there's just something about that

02:44:35   that to me makes for good television.

02:44:36   I love the cast.

02:44:37   Jennifer Aniston. I love Reese Witherspoon. Steve Carell is a terrific actor. And I saw the trailer.

02:44:45   It looks great. I'm really looking forward to that. So 10 years from now, you know, you'll still

02:44:50   be able to watch, you know, like when the morning show, let's say it's a hit and they have three or

02:44:54   four great seasons of the morning show and everybody says, wow, Apple really knocked it out

02:44:58   of the park. You know, there's the, what's the space show called? The one about the fictional,

02:45:06   - Oh, something about mankind.

02:45:09   - Yeah, for all mankind.

02:45:10   - For all mankind.

02:45:11   - Which again, looks like a fantastic show.

02:45:14   That's the one I previewed a couple months ago,

02:45:16   I think at WWDC.

02:45:18   Yeah, it was at WWDC and it's about a hypothetical world

02:45:20   where the Russians had beaten us to the moon

02:45:23   and had kept going and the US and Russia spent this,

02:45:28   instead of sort of backing away from the space race

02:45:31   in the '70s, had spent the '70s and '80s

02:45:33   continuing at the same extraordinary clip

02:45:37   that they did in the '60s, right?

02:45:39   I mean, in one decade, we went from never having put a man

02:45:42   into orbit to putting frickin' men on the moon.

02:45:44   So the whole premise of the show is,

02:45:47   what if we'd kept up that pace?

02:45:49   Fantastic idea for a what-if show.

02:45:51   10 years from now, all those shows will be

02:45:53   in the Apple TV+ library.

02:45:55   You could go back and watch 'em if you never did.

02:45:57   But at the get-go, in fall of 2019,

02:46:00   all they've got are the new shows they have.

02:46:02   How much can you charge for that?

02:46:03   If Netflix is 10 bucks and you get 1,000 shows,

02:46:07   and if Disney Plus is 7.99 and you get 10,000 Disney movies,

02:46:12   how the hell can they charge 10 bucks a month for 10 shows?

02:46:15   - I don't think that they can.

02:46:17   - Right.

02:46:18   - Now, we know that there are probably,

02:46:23   what, about 15 shows in production?

02:46:27   - Yeah, something like that. - Somewhere along the lines

02:46:29   of being made or finished.

02:46:32   But still, that's not a lot of shows.

02:46:34   Now we have to also consider, yeah,

02:46:36   they're gonna come out with those 15 shows

02:46:39   over the next few months, but they're still continuing.

02:46:43   I mean, in the time that we knew that there was 15 shows

02:46:46   in the last couple of months,

02:46:47   they probably have another 10 that they've added

02:46:51   to that list that we don't know about.

02:46:53   So there's continuous shows,

02:46:55   but still, those numbers don't add up to 1,000.

02:46:58   So, you know, you, I think you have to price it accordingly,

02:47:03   but it, you know, the worry there for them, I think,

02:47:06   is that they put a price on it and it's too low,

02:47:10   then how do you raise the price lighter?

02:47:12   - Yeah.

02:47:14   - You know, that's gotta be a concern.

02:47:17   Or do you try and come out with a fair price is $5.

02:47:20   - Right.

02:47:21   - Like a gaming arcade, is that something that is okay?

02:47:26   So five bucks for that, they're charging what,

02:47:30   999 for Apple Music or 15 for--

02:47:34   - A family.

02:47:35   - A family.

02:47:35   And there's millions of songs

02:47:40   and you can basically play anything in the world you want.

02:47:43   Well, you can't do that with Apple TV+.

02:47:47   - Right, so one of my what ifs ever since they announced

02:47:50   that they're getting into original TV content.

02:47:53   And again, it doesn't really fit with the idea

02:47:55   that Apple is in the services business to make money,

02:47:58   which they keep reiterating over and over they are.

02:48:01   And they have the financial results to prove it.

02:48:04   As they report quarterly results,

02:48:06   the services segment keeps going up.

02:48:08   They're in it for money.

02:48:11   But in the back of my mind,

02:48:14   I just can't help but think that one of the things

02:48:18   that has to be an idea is what if you get Apple TV+

02:48:22   with Apple Music?

02:48:23   Like Apple Music is the one that makes sense to bundle

02:48:26   that you would just, if you have Apple Music,

02:48:29   you get Apple TV Plus.

02:48:30   And I know that their original content to date

02:48:33   has been sort of baby steps, you know,

02:48:36   that they have the carpool karaoke

02:48:39   and they had that goofy show

02:48:42   where you were pitching apps to--

02:48:44   - Yeah, to goofy show. (laughs)

02:48:47   - Tell, you know, tell Gwyneth Paltrow and Gary Vayner

02:48:52   what your app idea is. You know, that didn't really set the world on fire. But those shows,

02:48:58   I thought that I don't I think that those things they gave away with Apple music now,

02:49:01   that's very different than the billion or $6 billion that they're supposedly spending on

02:49:05   original content now. But if they bundled it with Apple music, it's not like they're giving

02:49:12   it away free, you're still paying 10 or 15 bucks a month, you know, and it's, you know,

02:49:18   it would it on day one there's already millions and millions of people who already have apple

02:49:23   music so they'd already have a huge audience that could start watching these shows and start telling

02:49:28   people hey this morning show is fantastic it's a great show you should get apple music and watch

02:49:34   this show uh i i don't know i don't expect that new income though yeah i don't well it does it is

02:49:40   new income if they get more people to sign up for apple music right but with millions and millions

02:49:44   of people, what if they charged $4 or $5 for,

02:49:49   or you get a discount if you're Apple Music?

02:49:54   I don't know.

02:49:55   I love the idea of including it,

02:49:58   but when you look at how many new people

02:50:03   is that gonna bring over to Apple Music,

02:50:05   and is that gonna be enough of a bump?

02:50:07   Don't forget what Tim said in the last earnings either

02:50:13   about services where, you know, in the next couple of years,

02:50:16   they expect huge growth in services, financial,

02:50:20   and money-wise, they expect huge growth in services.

02:50:23   So, I mean, they've obviously got something

02:50:27   that they're eyeing that is going to generate

02:50:31   that kind of billions of dollars.

02:50:34   - I really expect them to answer this

02:50:36   at the September event, because I think the September event,

02:50:40   if I had to rank them by importance,

02:50:42   I would say the September iPhone event is the most important, most watched, most paid

02:50:47   attention to Apple event of the year, just because of the iPhone. WWDC is number two.

02:50:53   And then number three is the fall October event that they sometimes don't even have

02:50:58   because they don't have anything to announce. Although I think they're getting a little

02:51:02   bit more regular about that. And I definitely expected this year with these rumors of a

02:51:07   a new 16-inch MacBook Pro, and I certainly expect

02:51:10   that's when new iPad Pros and iPads would come out.

02:51:13   They're not gonna put the iPads,

02:51:15   I don't think they would ever put the iPads

02:51:17   in the same event as the iPhone

02:51:18   'cause they just don't wanna distract.

02:51:20   Whereas to me, the watch doesn't distract from iPhone.

02:51:23   - No. - No, no.

02:51:24   And so this is their premiere event.

02:51:28   They are dead serious about this original content

02:51:32   and the Apple Arcade, so I really think

02:51:34   that that's when they're gonna announce it.

02:51:37   The other thing along the lines of my wouldn't it be nice idea if they just bundled it with

02:51:42   the Apple Music for no extra money, which I agree is unlikely because it's, you know,

02:51:48   they want the money. But I just really, I don't feel like they have to, but I really

02:51:55   feel like they almost have to have some kind of bundle where you get it all. Yes. Instead

02:52:04   of signing up for the arcade and for Apple Music and for Apple TV Plus and and for Apple

02:52:10   News. Am I missing one that they charge for channels channels? I think they kind of have

02:52:16   to do separately just because of the nature of channels channels is a little different.

02:52:20   So let's ignore the channels for now. But if for twenty five bucks a month you could

02:52:25   get music, TV plus original shows and Apple Arcade and Apple News and it's all shared

02:52:33   with your family, 25 bucks a month or 20, but maybe 20, I don't know, 20, 25 bucks a

02:52:38   month. I do 25 man. That's appealing. And then, you know, then even if TV plus is 10

02:52:44   bucks a month, even though they only have like 10 shows at the beginning and if you,

02:52:48   all you want is TV plus it's 10 bucks a month. Well, don't get that. Just get the $25 bundle

02:52:53   and you get the music and you get the arcade and you get the news all together and you're,

02:52:58   you know, if you added it all up and you bought them separately, maybe it would be like $35

02:53:02   dollars or something like that. So instead of paying 35 you can pay 25. They didn't

02:53:07   mention anything about a bundle at the services event. But you know they didn't mention anything

02:53:11   really about a pricing or anything other than news because news was actually coming out

02:53:17   soon so they told us what news cost. I forget what news cost. What is news cost? Is it 10

02:53:22   bucks a month? Oh geez I forget too. I haven't. Yeah I do too. I have no idea what it costs.

02:53:30   - We probably should look.

02:53:31   - Yeah.

02:53:32   - See, they're counting on people like us.

02:53:35   I don't know how much it costs.

02:53:36   I just buy it.

02:53:37   - Well, we get 3% cash back, Jim.

02:53:41   (laughing)

02:53:43   - Oh, that's awesome.

02:53:46   - Let's see here.

02:53:48   Apple News, it's 10 bucks a month.

02:53:52   Yeah. - Okay.

02:53:54   - So if that's 10 bucks a month

02:53:55   and the TV is 10 bucks a month, now you're at 20.

02:53:58   We know Apple music is 10 or 15, right?

02:54:01   - Yeah.

02:54:02   - Depending on if you have family sharing.

02:54:03   Now all the other stuff, other than music,

02:54:06   they've already promised will include family sharing

02:54:09   by default.

02:54:10   Music is the one that's different right now

02:54:12   where there's two tiers, single and family.

02:54:15   So let's just say TV's 10, news is 10, you're at 20.

02:54:21   You're at least at 30 with music

02:54:23   if you don't have family sharing.

02:54:24   You're at 35 if you get family sharing.

02:54:26   And then arcade is five year at 40 bucks

02:54:28   if you bought them all separately, right?

02:54:30   And you're getting nickel,

02:54:31   you feel like you're getting nickeled and dime

02:54:32   'cause now you've signed up for four different things.

02:54:34   40 bucks for all of them separately,

02:54:37   25 bucks and you just get,

02:54:39   call it Apple Plus or something,

02:54:41   Apple Plus and you get it all.

02:54:43   That to me is the,

02:54:47   that's, and to me it solves their problem

02:54:50   of we only have 10 original shows

02:54:52   because you're not paying just for the shows,

02:54:54   you're paying for 5 million songs in Apple Music

02:54:57   and you're paying for all of these original arcade games

02:55:01   and you're paying for a news subscription

02:55:04   that maybe you wouldn't have gotten otherwise

02:55:06   but now you can read all your news without

02:55:08   getting bothered by all sorts of ugly ads and stuff.

02:55:13   - Apple plus Max Pro.

02:55:15   I think I nailed it, John.

02:55:20   - Yeah, that's my guess.

02:55:23   - Yeah, that sounds good, I would do that.

02:55:26   - My guess as to the Apple event is it opens up,

02:55:30   I guess, Jeff, what's his name?

02:55:33   CFO, COO, Jeff Williams.

02:55:39   Jeff Williams, Tim Cook comes out,

02:55:42   invites Jeff Williams on stage.

02:55:43   He'll tell us about the Apple Watch series,

02:55:46   what are we up to, five.

02:55:47   Tell us all about the new stuff.

02:55:51   and then Tim will come back out.

02:55:53   Call out Phil Schiller, tell us about new iPhones.

02:55:59   I suspect that this year they'll do iPhone 11 first,

02:56:02   the XR, 10R replacement.

02:56:04   Now you got me saying XR, Jim.

02:56:06   - I don't know why I did that today.

02:56:09   - Yeah, then the iPhone 10S replacement,

02:56:13   the iPhone 11 Pro and Pro Max,

02:56:15   and a big segment on how awesome the camera is

02:56:18   and the extra video, blah, blah, blah.

02:56:20   And then, you know, an hour and 15 minutes into it after, you know,

02:56:25   watch and phone, then boom, here's the, here's the full story on services.

02:56:30   And man, if they pull it off, I, I,

02:56:33   the music is funny because they're at

02:56:38   the Liberty, not Liberty,

02:56:41   but they've got to negotiate with the big record labels, right?

02:56:45   Cause what do people really want to listen to on Apple music?

02:56:47   They want to listen to hit music, right? They want to listen to the new Taylor,

02:56:49   with. So, the fact that they have to charge $15 instead of $10 to get family sharing,

02:56:55   I'm sure is part of—I think Apple would probably rather just have $10 and you get

02:56:59   family sharing, but I'm sure that it's some kind of licensing thing. Everything else,

02:57:04   though, is really under Apple's control. Now, obviously, the news stuff, they have

02:57:09   to get the Wall Street Journal. They've got to get the Wall Street Journal screen.

02:57:12   But the news publications are not in the position of strength that the music labels are in.

02:57:17   news industry is struggling. The TV stuff with their original content, Apple owns that

02:57:22   and the arcade stuff is all original stuff made for Apple Arcade. So putting it together

02:57:29   in a bundle, the only real wild card to me is whether they can include the music, right?

02:57:34   If they can get the rights from the record labels to do it. And maybe the simple answer

02:57:39   to that is you get a $25 Apple Plus subscription and they still give the $10 to the, you know,

02:57:47   to the Apple Music to the record labels

02:57:49   as though it's a $10 subscription.

02:57:50   - I think they would have to,

02:57:51   but I think that they can control that

02:57:54   as long as they keep the,

02:57:56   paying for the Apple Music licensing.

02:58:02   - Yeah, yeah.

02:58:03   - But I, and how they bond to it

02:58:04   probably doesn't matter to the music companies.

02:58:08   - I really hope that they pull that off.

02:58:10   I think it could be,

02:58:11   I think it could be such a lame phrase, win, win, win,

02:58:16   but I really think it could be good for everybody involved

02:58:19   where it's lots of money for Apple from services,

02:58:23   which they want, 'cause A, they want the money,

02:58:25   and B, they want the narrative for Wall Street

02:58:28   that we're growing the services segment of the industry.

02:58:31   I think more importantly for me and you

02:58:35   and for the people listening to this show,

02:58:37   I think it could be a great deal for Apple customers

02:58:40   in terms of getting a lot of bang for their buck

02:58:43   and getting a lot of cool stuff,

02:58:44   Cool games, great music, cool new TV shows, and Apple News for whatever that's worth.

02:58:55   And I think it's good for the people involved. I think that Apple Arcade, from what I've

02:59:00   heard, I think it's great financially for the game developers. And I think it allows

02:59:07   -- and really, A, I think it's good money and I think it's funding them to do good work.

02:59:11   But I think it really alleviates their consciences

02:59:14   that they're making games that aren't bilking people

02:59:17   out of money like a slot machine.

02:59:20   And instead, they're just giving them

02:59:23   the best game experience they can make,

02:59:25   as opposed to design the game entirely to be fun

02:59:30   instead of designing the game to both be fun

02:59:33   but also addictive and make money on an ongoing basis.

02:59:37   - Yep.

02:59:38   Just make good quality games.

02:59:40   - Yeah.

02:59:40   You know?

02:59:41   - Yeah, and I, you know, who else could pull this off?

02:59:44   Right, the other thing is that Apple does its best stuff

02:59:48   when it's only, you know, and Tim Cook loves to say it,

02:59:51   but only Apple, right?

02:59:52   But who else could pull off a bundle like this?

02:59:55   - No, I don't disagree with you there.

02:59:58   - Yeah, another thing, just as a side effect

03:00:00   before we sign off, a little, not a side effect,

03:00:02   a side note, is remember the goofy story last year

03:00:09   that said Tim Cook was sending notes to the TV people with,

03:00:13   "Oh, be nicer."

03:00:14   He's watching the early version.

03:00:16   - Don't be so mean.

03:00:17   - Don't be so mean.

03:00:18   And that Apple was meddling.

03:00:20   There was a story by Trip Mickle

03:00:21   who writes for the Wall Street Journal.

03:00:24   And Eddie Q, I don't know if you saw this,

03:00:29   a couple of weeks ago, I was on vacation at the time,

03:00:30   but he did an, I forget if it was Esquire or GQ,

03:00:34   I always get them confused,

03:00:35   but Eddie Q did an interview with, I think, GQ.

03:00:39   And he was asked about that.

03:00:40   And he said, that's complete nonsense.

03:00:43   Our only input in this is hiring the best people we can

03:00:47   find to make shows.

03:00:49   And then we trust them to do their work.

03:00:52   We'd be idiots.

03:00:53   We don't know how to make TV shows.

03:00:54   We'd be idiots to be micromanaging that.

03:00:58   And the thing that's interesting--

03:00:59   so the skeptic might say, well, of course, EdiQ is going

03:01:02   to say that, because it made Apple look bad.

03:01:05   But I think the thing that's interesting about it is that

03:01:07   nobody since has reported anything along those lines and

03:01:10   Hollywood is is a good size. It's a gossipy gossipy town, right? It is

03:01:18   It is a they don't even call them leaks, right?

03:01:22   I mean, it's just it's just

03:01:24   Understood that like variety knows like about movies that are coming out and who's gonna star in them and how much they're getting paid

03:01:29   It's they don't even call them leaks or rumors. That's just how Hollywood works

03:01:32   Yeah word would get around and it would have gotten around by now and there'd be a lot more stories

03:01:36   There was only one story that said that. There hasn't been any since. And then the other

03:01:40   thing too is if that was the word on the street in Hollywood, there's no way that these top

03:01:46   notch creative people would be signing more and more deals with Apple. Like it would just

03:01:50   be like, why the hell am I going to sign with Apple? I'll just go to Netflix where they'll

03:01:52   leave me alone or I'll go to HBO and they'll leave me alone and let me make cool stuff.

03:01:58   So I think I really think that's one of those stories. It's not important like that big

03:02:03   hack story from Bloomberg last year that never got followed up and never had any corroboration

03:02:08   and really as time, you know, looked like bullshit a day after it came out. And now

03:02:12   11 months later, it looks like a sure thing that it was bullshit because no other publication

03:02:19   corroborated it and Bloomberg itself never added a word to corroborate it. I think that

03:02:26   story about Apple executives and Tim Cook in particular meddling with the creatives making

03:02:30   and the original content was a big pile of shit.

03:02:33   - Yeah, it certainly sounds it.

03:02:35   And I'm glad, I'm glad that it was.

03:02:38   - Yeah, 'cause that would be bad news.

03:02:40   - It would be, it would be.

03:02:41   I mean, but one thing about all of this that you said,

03:02:46   why would creatives continue to sign up to work with Apple?

03:02:49   - Right.

03:02:50   - I mean, yeah, there's money involved,

03:02:53   but these people are,

03:02:56   They like to have some respect for their craft.

03:03:00   - Right, Steven Spielberg, well they have options.

03:03:03   Steven Spielberg has options.

03:03:04   - Yeah, Ron Howard, yeah.

03:03:06   Options.

03:03:08   - If Ron Howard calls Netflix and they answer the phone.

03:03:15   - Yeah, hey would you mind if I made a show?

03:03:19   - Yeah, would you be interested?

03:03:21   - Cool news.

03:03:22   - They'd drive the armored car right down to his house

03:03:25   and just unload the money right there.

03:03:27   - Where do you want us to drop the cash off?

03:03:29   In your garage?

03:03:30   You want us to put it right in your bank account?

03:03:32   Where's the cash go?

03:03:33   Anyway, well, I think that's a show.

03:03:37   Jim, it is always a pleasure to talk to you.

03:03:41   You make me laugh.

03:03:42   - Well, I'm glad.

03:03:44   I'm glad, and it's always good to be here with you.

03:03:47   I mean, we just get into so much, and it's so much fun.

03:03:52   I love it.

03:03:54   I can't believe I have to say this because I'm sure everybody knows, but your website,

03:03:58   of course the loop is at loop insight.com daily updates from you and your stable of

03:04:04   colleagues like Dave Mark. A must read every day. Put it in your net news wire subscriptions

03:04:12   and you're good to go to tie it back. Looper. I see that. That's what I call bringing the

03:04:16   show full circle. You're good. That was good. Yeah. You know what? Put it in your net news

03:04:23   wire and see if the icon looks right. Oh no, I gotta go fix that. Yeah, go fix it before the show comes out.

03:04:30   I gotta find somebody that knows how to make icons to do that. And thanks to our sponsors.

03:04:36   We have Squarespace where you can go to build a website. Fracture where you can get your own

03:04:40   photos printed directly on glass and it's beautiful. And Casper where you can get a brand new mattress,

03:04:47   luxury mattress at a very, very, very attractive price. My thanks to them. Jim, thanks.