The Talk Show

260: ‘A Clear Eyed Look at Dishwashers’ With John Siracusa


00:00:00   You haven't been on the show in a while. Last time I looked it up, it was episode 2 11.

00:00:03   It was the last Jedi Star Wars spectacular with with guy English and a cavalcade of other

00:00:10   other stars. Somehow you've gone a year and a half without being on my show. But now here

00:00:14   you are. And I've had the entire cast of ATP on consecutive episodes.

00:00:18   Well, there you go. Well, you're really afraid that like I haven't been on like, it's my

00:00:22   fault.

00:00:23   You know, I'm not the actor in that sense. I haven't been on. Is that a thing I can do?

00:00:31   Can I just come on? Yeah, you can always just pop on. Yeah, just keep your Skype open. Mm-hmm.

00:00:36   Invite yourself on. That's how that's how it works at Moltz. But I thought it was a special

00:00:40   special relationship as they say, how's your summer going? Pretty good. It's good. Good

00:00:45   summer this year. I think I saw a bunch of your pictures on Instagram. Boy, your kids are getting

00:00:50   big all of our kids are getting big their monsters that my daughter is I

00:00:54   didn't post most of the picture that but she's she's taller than everyone in the

00:00:58   family now practically not taller than you know no Jonas is sprouting up he's

00:01:05   he's has a we were I guess I forget he took jeans to Marcus Beach House but uh

00:01:12   he had to take jeans somewhere and it was a pair of jeans that ain't you know

00:01:16   in a way that that Amy knows but they were definitely a pair of jeans that he

00:01:22   had just worn like the last week of school and they're too short it was the

00:01:27   end of July yeah they do that man we've got that's a fair amount to talk about I

00:01:35   want to go down history lane maybe later on just talk about Mac OS in general it

00:01:44   It struck me today to look it up.

00:01:45   I seemed to remember, and my memory served me correctly, that you ended your 15-year

00:01:52   series of extensive Mac OS X reviews, I guess ending with OS X reviews, at 10.10, I guess

00:02:00   because you thought that was a nice number.

00:02:03   But now we're up to 10.15 this summer.

00:02:05   So now we will have the fifth one that you have not reviewed.

00:02:09   Talk about it later.

00:02:12   thing I wanted to talk about every once in a while I bring it up but I like to

00:02:17   sometimes wonder when's the last time you changed your mind not you in

00:02:22   particular but one has changed their mind I think it's a problem with our

00:02:25   species in general that we we make up our minds and and we don't we don't

00:02:31   change them but if you don't change your mind what's your assumption that you're

00:02:34   always right you've never been wrong if you're not changing your mind you're not

00:02:38   identifying the times that you're wrong, right?

00:02:41   - Well, you may have arrived at what you think

00:02:43   is the correct answer after a series of wrong answers,

00:02:46   because if you have your mind made up about something

00:02:49   and it's because that's the right answer,

00:02:53   changing it would change it to the wrong answer, so.

00:02:55   - Right, so just because you changed your mind

00:02:57   doesn't mean that you're now correct, but.

00:02:59   - But I get your larger point, for sure.

00:03:01   - I would like to revise and amend my commentary

00:03:07   on the Siri recorded privacy issue.

00:03:11   Well, you should, because you blew that one.

00:03:13   I totally did.

00:03:15   And it was bad timing, where in addition to being wrong--

00:03:20   I shouldn't have been wrong.

00:03:21   I should have thought this through better.

00:03:24   Then after Marco and I recorded my last episode, then,

00:03:29   of course, on a Friday, that's when Apple issued a statement

00:03:33   and sort of acknowledged the scope of what's going on,

00:03:37   which I thought looked pretty bad.

00:03:40   There were some tidbits that we didn't know about before.

00:03:43   I saw two articles.

00:03:44   I know Matthew Panzorino had one at TechCrunch,

00:03:46   and then Sam Byford had one for The Verge.

00:03:51   And I thought this was a real eye opener.

00:03:53   In Byford's article at The Verge,

00:03:57   it's like the third paragraph,

00:03:58   says Apple did not comment on whether,

00:04:00   in addition to pausing the program

00:04:02   where contractors listen to Siri voice recordings,

00:04:05   it would also stop actually saving those recordings on its servers. That's a bit weird that they're

00:04:10   not going to say whether or not they're—somebody at Apple knows whether they're still saving

00:04:16   the recordings. Currently, the company says it keeps recordings for six months before

00:04:23   removing identifying information from a copy that it could keep for two years or more.

00:04:29   Two years, holy smokes, right? Who the hell knew that this was going on?

00:04:33   Well, that's kind of the whole thing.

00:04:37   It's easy to read the letter of the law surrounding this and come up with an explanation that

00:04:44   makes it seem perfectly normal, but the spirit of Apple's privacy stance is in exact opposition

00:04:53   to this very thing.

00:04:54   The idea that you agree to something that you don't really read, some sort of amorphous

00:04:58   thing that gives Apple the right to collect a bunch of information. And then, you know,

00:05:03   they like the normal company, the way it works with big companies is you realize that like

00:05:10   they're doing way more than you thought they were. You didn't read it. And not only did

00:05:13   you not read it, but you can't even imagine the things they're doing based on the vague

00:05:17   language of this in that agreement that you didn't read. Whereas the Apple one is you

00:05:21   don't read it. And you what you expect is to be surprised by how good their stance on

00:05:26   privacy really is. Like that's always the thing. People like Apple, you know, how many people have

00:05:29   you heard just assume that Apple does something nefarious because everybody else does it. And you

00:05:35   try to convince them, no, Apple doesn't do that. Apple doesn't actually make money from advertising.

00:05:39   They don't actually sell your location information when you use maps to, you know, Starbucks so they

00:05:43   can present you with a copy. Like all these things that everyone assumes they do. The whole Apple

00:05:47   thing is in many cases, you will be surprised by the evil thing that Apple is not doing.

00:05:53   But this particular case is the opposite. It's the way the rest of the world works.

00:05:56   They did a thing and we're surprised by how bad it actually is.

00:06:02   Tom Scott Here's a statement from a guy named Steve Jobs

00:06:06   back in 2010 at the D8 conference. That's the, I guess it was the Wall Street Journal at the time,

00:06:12   but that was Walt Mossberg and Kara Swisher's conference where Steve Jobs used to appear in

00:06:18   in those high-backed red chairs more years than not, I think. But he was talking about

00:06:25   privacy all the way back in 2010. And he said, "Privacy means people know what they're

00:06:29   signing up for in plain English and repeatedly. I believe people are smart, and some people

00:06:34   want to share more data than other people do. Ask them. Ask them every time. Make them

00:06:40   tell you to stop asking them if they get tired of your asking them. Let them know precisely

00:06:45   what you're going to do with their data. I can't think of a single thing to criticize

00:06:51   in that statement and it seems like it was almost spot on a description of what's wrong

00:06:58   with the Siri story. Because we still don't really know what's going on. We don't really

00:07:02   know are these recordings that are getting reviewed all from the hey dingus verbal commands?

00:07:09   Are some of them the ones that were manually initiated when you hold down the button? Which

00:07:14   devices. You had a good rant on ATP about, you know, of course they want them for debugging

00:07:22   purposes. How are they going, if Siri is mishearing certain commands or doing the wrong thing

00:07:26   in response to them, there's no way that, well, I shouldn't say there's no way, but

00:07:31   it's very difficult to fix it without being able to listen to the recording. But we don't

00:07:38   know when they get sent, what, I still don't know. I'm still not sure now that I think

00:07:42   about it and really go deep. I'm not sure how much of this gets processed on device

00:07:46   period, whether they're saving their recordings on servers or not. It's unclear to me like

00:07:51   how much of Siri still works when you're in airplane mode.

00:07:54   >> Yeah, that was a question I had on my TV and I had just assumed that the transcription

00:07:58   was done on device because the devices are so powerful. But Marco told me that's not

00:08:02   actually the case and it's sending everything over the network.

00:08:04   >> I don't know about everything though. I see, I don't believe that. I don't know.

00:08:08   >> Well, you know, the audio anyway for the purpose of transcription. Anyway, the whole

00:08:12   The whole point is this is entirely opaque to the user.

00:08:15   And the Apple experience that we all want and that we were promised is that it's actually

00:08:21   better than we think it is.

00:08:22   And in this case, it's either worse than we think it is or it's, depending on how cynical

00:08:26   you are, it's exactly the way we think it is.

00:08:28   Like, "Oh, there's another big company collecting our data and not telling us how much they're

00:08:32   collecting and we're surprised to see how creepy it is."

00:08:35   That's how every other company works.

00:08:36   So an Apple is supposed to be the exception and generally is the exception, which is why

00:08:40   the PR for this is so bad because think of what a hard time you'll now have explaining

00:08:44   to somebody that really Apple doesn't do it that way or no Apple can't see your messages

00:08:49   except in unencrypted iCloud backups. The more you have to add qualifications and the more

00:08:55   the person you're trying to convince comes back to you and say, "What about that time

00:08:58   where they saved a lot of serial recordings?" And like that's the thing that happened for

00:09:02   sure but in this other case Apple is actually better than the competitors. So it's this

00:09:07   Perception is the real problem here.

00:09:10   I mean, that's a secondary problem, I suppose.

00:09:12   The real problem is recording all of our voices

00:09:14   without our knowledge.

00:09:15   - Our mutual friend, Manton Reese,

00:09:17   pointed out that Amazon actually

00:09:22   does a pretty good job with this,

00:09:23   where it's pretty easy to search the web

00:09:26   for how do you control your Alexa stuff.

00:09:28   You get a FAQ.

00:09:29   I have it in the show notes,

00:09:30   so it should make it into the final show notes here

00:09:32   for the public.

00:09:33   But they have a FAQ about Alexa that's pretty,

00:09:36   I would say it's written in plain English, font a little small maybe, but there's a link

00:09:40   and they tell you how to get to a list of your recorded commands in their app and then

00:09:48   there's a URL you can go to on the web and as long as you're signed into your Amazon

00:09:52   account you can delete recordings from a date range. You can, there's a button to delete

00:09:58   all of the saved recordings. It's really pretty clear and then there's a toggle for whether

00:10:06   you want to allow your recordings to be reviewed by Amazon, and so you can opt out of it. So

00:10:12   that's, that would be pretty tough. I can't really think of anything to suggest there.

00:10:17   That seems like the way it should be.

00:10:20   Have you ever used those web pages, whether for Amazon or for Google, they both have similar

00:10:24   pages. Have you ever gone to them for your own devices?

00:10:27   I did. I did it today in preparation for the show, and there was a recording of my son

00:10:34   telling Alexa to shut the f up. So I've gone to these pages as well in the past and the

00:10:42   strange thing about pages like this is that the experience of going to a web page and

00:10:49   scrolling through like all of your past recordings and like being able to play them sort of viscerally

00:10:58   makes you understand the fact that things you say in your house have been transferred

00:11:03   to a server somewhere and are being stored there. You can read those words and understand

00:11:07   the agreement and it's written in plain English. Like, yeah, of course that's the way it works.

00:11:10   But actually seeing the web page and actually being able to scroll to three months ago and

00:11:15   play a thing that somebody said when you weren't in the house, you feel creepy doing it. Because

00:11:19   now you're basically eavesdropping on people in your own house hearing how they use devices,

00:11:23   especially if it was an accidental activation or something. And in many ways, I feel like

00:11:28   The existence of that page really hammers home exactly how invasive and creepy this

00:11:33   is, despite the fact that, as you noted, this is a good thing to have if they're going to

00:11:37   store them at all, give the user visibility, give the user control or whatever.

00:11:40   But I think what most people would prefer is, as soon as you've done what I asked for

00:11:46   you, forget it.

00:11:47   Don't record my information anywhere.

00:11:48   Delete it if you have it saved anywhere, or just don't save it in the first place.

00:11:52   That's what everybody wants until and unless they're having a problem or whatever, which

00:11:56   which gets into what I was saying in ATP,

00:11:57   which is at the point where you're experiencing malfunction,

00:12:00   that's the point where people would willingly opt in

00:12:02   more often than not to getting their thing recorded

00:12:06   just so Apple can fix it.

00:12:07   But every other time,

00:12:09   what would make people the most comfortable is

00:12:12   I am not recorded and stored anywhere ever

00:12:14   unless I explicitly ask for it.

00:12:16   - Yeah, and the counterexample, which I love the feature,

00:12:20   I forget how many handful of years old now at this point,

00:12:23   but the voicemail transcription feature in iOS

00:12:28   has a little thing where it'll say,

00:12:33   was this transcription useful or not useful?

00:12:38   And there are links, and then you can tap Useful,

00:12:41   and then you get a dialog box instantly,

00:12:44   opens up right away, which is nice.

00:12:46   Help improve transcriptions.

00:12:48   Would you like to submit this voicemail to Apple

00:12:50   to improve transcription accuracy?

00:12:52   Recordings will only be used to improve the quality of speech recognition in Apple products.

00:12:56   Do not submit recordings.

00:12:58   If you believe the speaker would be uncomfortable with you submitting the content to Apple,

00:13:03   cancel or submit.

00:13:04   Or if it's illegal in your state.

00:13:06   Yes, I guess they could mention that.

00:13:09   But I'm not sure though, if you leave a voicemail.

00:13:12   It's like a two-party consent thing.

00:13:14   I don't know.

00:13:15   Do they know they're being recorded?

00:13:16   I don't know how this works, legally speaking.

00:13:17   But the wording is nice, but I don't understand how the legalities work there.

00:13:23   Yeah, I saw you post that to the notes document and the spam voicemail that you have transcribed

00:13:30   there.

00:13:31   I've received that same voicemail.

00:13:32   Yeah, something about my excellent credit history and I'm eligible for blah, blah, blah.

00:13:36   It's like it's vaguely broken English, some kind of credit come on.

00:13:40   It's like, "You're going to send this mail to literally millions of people.

00:13:42   Can you spend 10 minutes getting the grammar right?"

00:13:45   still going with the trick where they have the same area code as I do and the same first

00:13:53   three digits as though it's, you know, as though that makes it more likely, you know,

00:13:59   that it's somebody I know.

00:14:00   Adam: Yeah. I have a brutal one. My caller ID, you know, we tend to get the same—what

00:14:05   I think are the same spammers calling all the time and you can see from the caller ID.

00:14:09   And for the longest time, caller ID of Boston College was calling. And I got to the point

00:14:14   after they called three days in a row where I answered it, ready to tell them to take

00:14:18   me off their list or go away or whatever, whatever things I could possibly do. And I

00:14:22   answered it and there was nobody there. Just nothing. Like I don't think they hung up,

00:14:28   but there was no one. It was like, hello, hello, nobody there. And so they kept calling.

00:14:31   They'd call every single day and I'd pick up every single time and there was nobody

00:14:35   there. Like this is the worst scam ever. Like you have to, you have to pick up, you have

00:14:38   to tell me something. How can I give you all my money if you don't say anything? Eventually

00:14:42   someone picked up and I told them to take me off the list or whatever. And I also started blocking

00:14:46   the number, which is a thing that I can do with my phone service. Actually, this is not my landline

00:14:52   phone. I actually have a landline. I started blocking the number. Then I realized that

00:14:56   they were called day after day. And every time they call, the caller ID says Boston College,

00:15:01   but every time they call, it's a different number. Because I bet a ton of numbers show up as Boston

00:15:06   College and they're just going through all, you know, they're faking their call ID through all

00:15:09   all these numbers. And so now I'm just resigned to the fact that every day someone will call

00:15:12   my house with the call, I'd Boston College, and I have to just not answer it.

00:15:16   What do you I can't understand the hit rate on these things. Like I don't even understand

00:15:20   because sometimes I'll answer because I'm bored. And I just want to take some of their

00:15:23   time and I feel like I'm doing a service for humanity, even though I'm probably doing myself

00:15:27   a disservice by by marking my number is actual number. But I get so many of these calls anyway,

00:15:33   it doesn't really seem plus you're lonely. Yes, exactly.

00:15:37   I just want to talk to somebody.

00:15:39   But I'll start talking to them, and it's like, I don't even know what they're trying to sell

00:15:43   me.

00:15:44   And it's like, they can't even make it clear.

00:15:45   Do you get the ones in Chinese?

00:15:47   I get a lot of calls in Chinese.

00:15:48   Oh, I do too.

00:15:49   And I'm like, you're just not getting anywhere with this.

00:15:51   Yeah.

00:15:52   I forget what the transcriptions look like for those.

00:15:55   They're usually pretty…

00:15:56   I think it just ops out.

00:15:57   I think it just on the iPhone, it's like, you know, did not transcribe or could not

00:16:00   transcribe.

00:16:01   Right.

00:16:02   Transcription not available.

00:16:03   Yeah, there you go.

00:16:04   Anyway, I've gone from ambivalent about this story to upset.

00:16:14   I would like to know exactly how this happened.

00:16:20   One of the weird things that you and I both know is that Apple has a privacy team.

00:16:28   You would think most companies today should have one, but in a way that certain things

00:16:31   have to go through legal.

00:16:33   got to send it through the legal department. When they do new features, they have a privacy

00:16:37   team that new features have to be run through and that these are people—I actually just

00:16:43   met a couple of them at WWDC—who are shockingly super smart, but also have that mindset where

00:16:50   they totally—it's like being a white hat hacker. They know how to think like, "Well,

00:16:57   how I would abuse this and close stuff up. My only theory is that Siri has such a weird

00:17:08   history where it started as this third-party company and then they slowly started integrating

00:17:14   it and it's always been partially on device, partially in the servers, and that somehow

00:17:22   the whole thing just sort of slipped through the cracks and that this never really got

00:17:26   looked at in terms of the privacy implications because it's so far over the line.

00:17:30   **Matt Stauffer:** I mean, that could be true, but my assumption has been that

00:17:34   one of those things that we all don't read explicitly said that Apple's going to do this

00:17:39   and we all agreed to it. To my point before, it doesn't actually make it better. I think Apple

00:17:44   may be surprised to learn that, "Oh, that thing that we put in the agreement that nobody read

00:17:49   that you all agreed to, they're not going to hide behind that like so many other covers." Like,

00:17:53   like, well, you agreed to it or whatever, because Apple, I think, understands that it

00:17:57   doesn't really matter whether we click the accept thing on the thing that we didn't read.

00:18:01   What matters is how we feel about it as customers. And I think in this case, as in many cases,

00:18:07   we are all surprised at how surprised Apple is that we don't like something. Like, if

00:18:12   we pose this hypothetical to anybody who follows Apple or is an Apple fan, we'd say, yeah,

00:18:17   people aren't going to like that. But maybe with an Apple, it was like, well, everyone

00:18:20   agreed to this and we've been doing it for years and no one's complained so I guess it's a thing

00:18:23   that's okay. And the privacy team would be like, look, we outlined it in plain English and if you

00:18:28   had read the thing, it would say what we did and we believe in your privacy and here's what we do

00:18:31   and we anonymize it and we only keep it for two years and that's better than the industry standard.

00:18:36   Like there's a whole bunch of things that you can say to yourself inside Apple to convince yourself

00:18:39   that this is actually okay. Lots of the evidence out in the world can be used to support the idea

00:18:44   that Apple's customers are okay with this thing that's happening when in reality Apple's customers

00:18:49   customers, A, weren't aware that it was happening, and B, once they became aware, are not okay

00:18:52   with it.

00:18:53   Tom Bilyeu: Yeah, definitely. And I saw one theory that maybe somehow inside Apple they

00:19:00   chalked it up to the—like when you first set up a new device, or I guess every time

00:19:06   you do a major software like OS update, you go through the onboarding process and there's

00:19:13   a question like settings or diagnostic info or something like that. Will you help Apple

00:19:18   out by sending diagnostic information. And I don't have it in front of me, but I'm guessing

00:19:25   that there's a—well, actually, I don't know if they would have a link to the web

00:19:30   page where they explain more because in that onboarding process, you can't really jump

00:19:34   to Safari because you're not set up yet.

00:19:36   Tim Cynova Yeah, but think of like email it to me.

00:19:38   You have to say like—

00:19:39   Jay Haynes Yeah, or maybe.

00:19:40   Tim Cynova You used to be like printed out on your Mac,

00:19:41   but now it's like email it to me.

00:19:42   Jay Haynes Right. So most people just look at the high-level

00:19:45   diagnostics, the two-sentence summary of it, and they either hit the button that says,

00:19:50   "Okay, I'll send it," or they hit the little "not" button underneath that is a little

00:19:57   diabolically designed like, "No, you don't want this one. You want to send us the diagnostics."

00:20:01   But somehow they thought that that diagnostics thing—and maybe legally, maybe from a legal

00:20:05   sense it does, but it certainly is.

00:20:07   Steven: Yeah, and the thing is, I do wonder what sort of a non-tech enthusiast's conception

00:20:13   of diagnostics is, but I think within the tech nerd world, we're all thinking crash reports,

00:20:19   right? That's kind of what we're thinking. Like, yeah, if there's some problem with the program,

00:20:23   or if you want to know, like, how many times I launch it or how many times a feature is used,

00:20:27   that's what I'm opting into when I say diagnostics. But even tech nerds would be surprised. We say,

00:20:31   oh, and also everything you say to Siri, we have the right to send and store for two years. That

00:20:36   is not in our mental model of what that button means to us. Yeah. And it is funny to think about

00:20:43   the fact, you know, so they apparently strip your iCloud ID from these recordings after

00:20:49   six months, right? Yeah, that's what that that in that to me is a little, that's not

00:20:54   what I expected. So after six months, they strip it. But it's, it's theoretically possible

00:21:03   that, you know, like your example was, I think, James Earl Jones, who was your Freeman, Morgan

00:21:08   Freeman. Close. Well, either—

00:21:11   Steven: Someone with a voice that you would recognize, saying words that you would recognize

00:21:14   as being relevant. Morgan Freeman talking to Steven Spielberg about a new movie.

00:21:19   Right. You know, it's not outlandish to think that somebody could have one scooped up or it was,

00:21:27   you know, easily identified.

00:21:28   Yeah. I mean, especially if they have humans listening to this, and there's this big fleet

00:21:34   of humans, one of the humans is going to hear the Morgan Freeman thing and is going to recognize

00:21:38   Morgan Freeman's voice and this, but you know, like it's also insider trading. If you recognize

00:21:42   like a CEO talking about financial things like, and I know it's like, oh, the employees

00:21:47   agreed to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like these, this is where this stuff happens. Having

00:21:51   this information at all is a liability. And then having this information pass through

00:21:56   the hands of like your lowest paid, least well treated employees is not great.

00:22:01   No, it's not what you want.

00:22:06   Even I've been recognized by my voice.

00:22:09   We were at Disney World last month and we were waiting for dinner and I was ordering

00:22:13   a drink at the bar.

00:22:15   My wife noticed at first that this guy next to me just suddenly shot his head over, like

00:22:21   got hit by a thunderclap and he was like, "Are you John Gruber?"

00:22:25   That doesn't really…that happens to me at WWDC.

00:22:27   I'm sure it happens to you at WWDC.

00:22:28   It does not happen to me at Disney World.

00:22:30   Well, to be fair, you're Disney a lot.

00:22:32   Yeah, I guess.

00:22:33   It's the law of averages.

00:22:35   But like he even said, he said it wasn't that I recognized you, it was that I recognized

00:22:38   your voice.

00:22:39   Yeah, that's the way it works in podcasting, which is as I prefer it, I suppose, because

00:22:43   then you just keep your mouth shut and be anonymous.

00:22:45   Right.

00:22:46   Faces made for radio, as they say back on Car Talk.

00:22:50   Oh, definitely.

00:22:52   I guess we're done with this story, though.

00:22:56   Got the Alexa thing, got the permission for the voicemail.

00:22:58   Boy, pasting a screenshot into a note really takes up a lot of space.

00:23:02   Yeah, you can't even see that note on my Mac Pro here because it's running Al Cap

00:23:06   and I can't see shared notes.

00:23:07   I can see it on my iPhone.

00:23:11   All right, let me take a break here and thank our first sponsor.

00:23:17   Let's see who the lucky winner is, who gets to go first.

00:23:19   Why don't we talk about Away?

00:23:23   I love Away.

00:23:25   I just got done taking my away suitcase on a trip.

00:23:28   It's still good as new.

00:23:30   They make suitcases.

00:23:34   They're top notch, really, really great.

00:23:36   All of them are made from either a lightweight, durable,

00:23:40   German polycarbonate, which is to say a very fancy,

00:23:43   very nice plastic, or an aluminum alloy.

00:23:47   I've got the polycarbonate one, 'cause mine is so old

00:23:49   that they only had the carbonate ones when I got mine.

00:23:52   And I have no reason to replace it

00:23:55   because it's still as good as new.

00:23:56   They've considered all types of travelers

00:23:58   and they make their carry-on in two sizes

00:24:01   with an optional ejectable battery,

00:24:04   which I love, absolutely love.

00:24:07   And when they say ejectable, it is super ejectable.

00:24:09   You just click down on it, pops up.

00:24:11   That's important now because now

00:24:13   if you're traveling on an airplane

00:24:15   and they make you check your bag

00:24:17   rather than putting it in the overhead,

00:24:20   you have to remove lithium ion batteries.

00:24:22   Couldn't be easier.

00:24:24   Super great. I love having that battery right there on my suitcase.

00:24:27   Then all you have to do, keep a lightning cable handy. Although,

00:24:30   I guess you need two cables now if you want to charge an iPad,

00:24:33   we all need a lot of cables, but there we go. Plug it right in your suitcase.

00:24:37   Every single seat at the airport is now a seat with the charging port for you.

00:24:42   I love it.

00:24:44   Four 360 spinner wheels guaranteed for a smooth ride.

00:24:48   My wheels still absolutely fantastically smooth years old,

00:24:52   Lots of trips.

00:24:54   A really clever internal compression system

00:24:56   that lets you pack more,

00:24:58   keeps your shirts from getting all wrinkled up.

00:25:00   I go everywhere.

00:25:03   I can't remember the last time I went anywhere

00:25:05   without my Away Carry-On.

00:25:06   I really like it.

00:25:07   It's a great suitcase.

00:25:09   You can save 20 bucks off your suitcase

00:25:12   by going to awaytravel.com.

00:25:15   That's their URL, awaytravel.com/talkshow20.

00:25:20   talk show because this is the talk show. Twenty because you can save twenty bucks. And just

00:25:25   remember that promo code, talk show twenty during checkout. So go to awaytravel.com/talk

00:25:30   show. And my thanks to Away for continuing to support the show.

00:25:35   Eric Meyer I think all of our suitcases are now Away

00:25:38   suitcases.

00:25:39   Tom Bilyeu You know what? We had a funny thing when we

00:25:40   went to see Marco and we got off the ferry. A guy took mine and you know because he had

00:25:47   an Away suitcase as well.

00:25:48   Well, many suitcases look alike, so check your luggage tags.

00:25:51   Many suitcases look alike. I'm a big believer in that. And it's funny because I realized

00:25:55   that I don't even know how many other people have an away carry-on because I can't remember

00:26:01   the last time I had to gate check it. You know, because I have pretty good status on

00:26:05   American Airlines and I always fly on American Airlines, so I don't get like a bad boarding

00:26:11   group where they might take my suitcase away and stick it underneath the belly of the plane.

00:26:16   sticking it right over my seat so it's never really out of arm's length but

00:26:21   that would have been that would have been bad yeah I have all my drugs and

00:26:26   stuff in my suitcase hey I know you're Martin Scorsese fans you see the trailer

00:26:34   for the Irishman I am avoiding I mean Todd Bizira he's doing cool media

00:26:41   blackout for it but although he was I think he's working on the movie now so I

00:26:45   I don't know how that works.

00:26:46   Anyway, I'm mostly avoiding all trailers now.

00:26:50   And so if I'm interested in a movie,

00:26:53   I avoid the trailer because I don't want to be spoiled.

00:26:55   And if I'm not interested in the movie,

00:26:56   I avoid the trailer because why bother?

00:26:57   So the answer is no.

00:26:59   - But you're aware of the basic premise.

00:27:02   - I am not aware of the basic premise.

00:27:04   I have almost nothing about this movie

00:27:06   other than the director.

00:27:08   So I just--

00:27:08   - You don't even know the cast?

00:27:11   - De Niro maybe?

00:27:12   I don't think I know anything about the cast.

00:27:14   Can I spoil the cast?

00:27:15   - Sure, go for it.

00:27:16   - It's the whole gang is back together.

00:27:18   It's got De Niro, it's got Joe Pesci,

00:27:20   and they've added Al Pacino.

00:27:24   - But they're all men now, it's gonna be sad.

00:27:26   - Well, this is the thing.

00:27:27   Young Eyes, Robert De Niro.

00:27:32   - Oh, all right then.

00:27:34   - That's what I wanted to--

00:27:35   - That would explain Todd Vizzier's involvement,

00:27:36   not that he does that. - Right.

00:27:37   There is some serious Todd Vizzier action going on.

00:27:41   I will say, the trailer is excellent.

00:27:44   It is not very spoilery and shocker because you'd think, you know, somebody like Martin

00:27:48   Skars says he's going to keep control of his trailer.

00:27:50   Do you think the directors even of that stature have control of the trailers?

00:27:54   What I've heard is that no matter who you are, you get no say in your trailer.

00:27:57   But I don't know how true that is.

00:27:59   I don't know about that.

00:28:00   If anybody does, I would think so.

00:28:02   Yeah, sure.

00:28:03   No, you would think.

00:28:04   But I always think about Stephen King having control over his book covers.

00:28:08   Right.

00:28:09   And again, my vague knowledge of this is that even Stephen King has to just deal with what

00:28:14   publisher wants to put on the cover.

00:28:16   Right. Right. Right. The inside of his books is he has control over. They're very consistent,

00:28:22   you know. It's all set, typeset in Garamond number three.

00:28:27   Yeah. I mean, I suppose if you get big enough, you can insist on whatever you want to insist

00:28:30   on. But I think just being conditioned by years and years of being in the industry,

00:28:34   you could become accustomed to the idea that the director doesn't have control of the trailer

00:28:37   and the author doesn't have control over the cover.

00:28:39   Yeah, from what I saw in the trailer, the way that they've made Robert De Niro look younger

00:28:45   than he really is, is pretty astounding. It is outside the uncanny valley. Now, it's a trailer,

00:28:52   so maybe they're cherry picking the shots with dark lighting and cherry picking the best spots.

00:28:59   But that's pretty interesting. And I don't know how I feel about it though. In some sense,

00:29:04   like if we keep giving the role of a mid-forties gangster to Robert De Niro, when does our

00:29:14   generation get to step into these roles?

00:29:15   John: Right. Soon it'll just be his voice on a computer-animated figure. The worst thing

00:29:21   about De Niro and these other actresses is we have so much footage of them at that age.

00:29:24   It's not like we don't know what they look like, right? As opposed to aging Captain America,

00:29:29   we don't know what Chris Evans is going to look like when he's old, but we know what

00:29:32   what 30-, 40-year-old Robert De Niro looked like. We're very familiar.

00:29:36   Yeah. I'd be curious to hear, after this comes out, to pick Todd Vaziri's ear about

00:29:42   it and find out how much work and what source material they used to get the useful.

00:29:47   And exactly how much they replaced. That's the whole thing. It's always like, "Oh,

00:29:51   I'm going to just do a nip and a tuck." And it's like, "No, we're just going to

00:29:54   erase your head and replace it with our computer head."

00:29:58   It's a Netflix movie, which is kind of interesting. But they're doing the—I guess it's that whole

00:30:06   thing Spielberg was talking about back at the Oscars in March, where, you know, for whatever

00:30:12   reason Spielberg thinks that any movie up for Oscar consideration has to have been in a theater.

00:30:18   I like tradition as much as the next guy. I don't really see that as a requirement.

00:30:25   A movie is a movie. I like seeing a movie in a theater. I like a big screen. I like

00:30:36   a good loud sound system. When you go to the movies, I don't go much anymore, I got to

00:30:40   say. But I do like going to see a blockbuster in a movie theater. I like the way that I

00:30:45   I don't have to worry about waking up my wife or something because I have the volume too

00:30:49   loud. But if I don't put the volume up loud, then I can't hear what they're saying. But

00:30:54   then when the Hulk starts throwing things against the wall, all of a sudden the volume

00:30:58   you had set for dialogue is no longer appropriate.

00:31:02   Yeah. Plus, the recent year's innovation that I feel like has given a big boost to my desire

00:31:09   to go to movie theaters. Reserve seating everywhere. It's the best thing ever. Do you have that

00:31:14   at all your local theaters?

00:31:15   Dave Asprey I can't remember the last time I went to

00:31:17   a movie without reserved seating.

00:31:18   Jon Streeter No, I won't go to a movie without reserved

00:31:20   seating.

00:31:21   Dave Asprey Yeah, it's absolutely fantastic.

00:31:25   Why did it take so long?

00:31:26   Jon Streeter Computers, because it's like a bookkeeping

00:31:28   hassle.

00:31:29   And it's not like we didn't have the computers to do it, but someone needed to say, "Let's

00:31:33   try this."

00:31:34   Once the technology was there, it's just a matter of someone being willing to use technology.

00:31:37   And once the first person was willing to use it and probably saw what it did to attendance,

00:31:40   then it just spreads like wildfire.

00:31:42   That's why.

00:31:43   before, like, what would the logistics be of just how many

00:31:45   shows a day and how many seats and picking what your seats are

00:31:48   and, and sort of knowing when the seats taken for someone else

00:31:50   took it like it would cost so much money to run that without

00:31:53   without the web essentially.

00:31:54   And like a play plays have always had reserved seatings,

00:31:57   but a play typically, the theater only has one showroom.

00:32:03   It is the theater. And I think most plays are typically one show

00:32:08   a day, maybe two and not $7 a ticket, and not $7 a day.

00:32:13   whatever current movie ticket prices are. I think they're around 11 or 12 bucks, 13.

00:32:18   Right, so I guess it is the computerization. The other thing that's really nice about a modern

00:32:22   theater is the reclining seats. Oh yeah. Yeah, they're sort of like stadium seating reclining

00:32:29   seats. And I've even almost but not quite come around to those ones that give you the food in

00:32:34   the theater because my wife really likes our local theater that gives food. I never get food in the

00:32:39   theater. I don't want other people to get food in the theater, but I have to say that since it makes

00:32:44   my wife and sometimes my kids happy, I like that because it makes them more willing to go to the

00:32:47   movie because you can convince them, "Oh, we'll go to the one with the food and you can get, you

00:32:50   know, junky french fries that you like." And the second thing is they somehow manage, maybe it's

00:32:54   because there's a stupid 30 minutes of trails in front of everything, to get you the food before

00:32:59   the movie starts and not deal with anything related to the food until the movie is over.

00:33:03   And for the most part, people are nice about not making chewy, noisy things. The only bad thing is

00:33:08   it's a little bit of extra lighting so that people can see the menus, which I wish they would turn

00:33:11   off. So I would, I do not prefer it and would avoid it if possible. But I do like the idea

00:33:16   that other people in my family like it because it gets them to go to the movies.

00:33:18   Yeah, I totally agree. I first time I know they're the the famous chain is the Alamo

00:33:24   draft house. And I know that they're, I think they're out of Texas now. I think they're

00:33:28   spreading nationwide. But when for a couple of years when I lived up in Massachusetts,

00:33:33   we had a place that it was called Chunky's. And it was weird. It was like when this was

00:33:37   a novelty and it didn't really have theater seating. What they had were the passenger

00:33:43   seats from Lincoln Continentals, like mid-80s Lincoln Continentals, and they just bought

00:33:48   a whole bunch of passenger bucket seats from like 80s Lincolns, put them on wheels, and

00:33:55   then you didn't really—I have to say I didn't really like that because I want to be squared

00:33:59   up and I want to be in the center, but it was a way that you could kind of wheel your

00:34:02   seat around. It was a comfy chair.

00:34:04   **Matt Stauffer** That's weird.

00:34:05   **Ezra Klein** Yeah, it was definitely weird.

00:34:06   It was a little one.

00:34:07   And by modern theater standards, too, the seat out of even Lincoln Continental is way

00:34:12   smaller than the current gigantic recliners that they have in these theaters.

00:34:15   There's enough room for like two normal-sized people to sit on each one of these things.

00:34:19   Yeah, the old school movie theaters.

00:34:22   I guess that was the other thing, too, is that they've raised the prices enough and

00:34:25   attendance is down and they go for blockbusters.

00:34:27   But I guess in the old days, throughout decades ago, they were really just trying to pack

00:34:32   people in like sardines.

00:34:33   Yep.

00:34:34   tiny hard seats with, if you're lucky, some kind of dingy fabric on it. Rubbing elbows

00:34:41   with the public, literally.

00:34:42   Steven: Yeah. And if you rub the seat the wrong way, it kind of gave you like a…you

00:34:47   know, like…what would you call that? You know what I mean? It's like the velvet,

00:34:52   and if you rub it the right way, it feels smooth.

00:34:53   Adam: Single directional velvet, yeah.

00:34:55   Steven; Yeah. Anyway, I'm looking forward to that, although I don't know if I'll

00:35:01   see it in the theater. I figured I'd run it by you. See what I thought.

00:35:04   The Netflix thing? If it's Netflix, is it only on Netflix? Do you have the option to

00:35:07   see it in that theater?

00:35:08   Oh, yeah. So, they are going to do a "limited run," which I take to maybe New York and LA.

00:35:15   So, I don't know that…

00:35:17   New York, LA, and Philadelphia, obviously.

00:35:19   Yeah. I somehow doubt it. I think I'll wait for it to come out on Netflix. But I'm looking

00:35:23   forward to it. I think it's kind of interesting.

00:35:25   Are they going to do "Same Day" on Netflix?

00:35:27   No, I don't know. That's weird.

00:35:28   So, I feel like that's a super Netflix-y thing to do. Drop the whole season at once

00:35:32   and put it on Netflix the same day it opens in theaters.

00:35:34   Trenton Larkin Yeah. What do you think about Netflix's distribution of, you know, like,

00:35:38   here's season three of Stranger Things. Here's the whole thing. Here's eight episodes.

00:35:42   Michael Scott I like it. I mean, there's a place for both kinds of distribution. So I'm not in

00:35:47   favor of one completely replacing the other. But I like having it as an option because I, you know,

00:35:53   I don't, I think, because there's so much now I feel a lot less of the pressure to watch a show

00:36:00   that comes out immediately, otherwise I'll get spoiled by my friends because now we're

00:36:04   all in the same boat where it's like no one has time to binge watch Stranger Things season

00:36:09   three when it comes out just because it comes out because there's a million shows like that

00:36:13   and who has that kind of time? So we all do watch it at our leisure but I watch things in a bursty

00:36:20   manner sometimes it's like no episodes for several days and then I do four episodes in a day and

00:36:25   and I like having that available to me. It sort of lets me go my own pace.

00:36:31   Dave Asprey I thought about it a lot with Stranger Things

00:36:34   this season. I didn't do super bingey. Sometimes I just get in a real rut where I'm staying

00:36:40   up real late and I'll watch three or four episodes of a thing. I mostly watch one a

00:36:45   night, maybe two. It used to bother me because Stranger Things in particular has cliffhanger

00:36:51   episode endings. It just feels to me like this is supposed to make you wait a week.

00:36:56   You're supposed to wait a week to find out what the hell just happened.

00:36:59   But then I was thinking about it. You brought up Stephen King. They even call them chapters

00:37:05   on Stranger Things. It's no different than a novel where lots of thriller writers will

00:37:11   put a cliffhanger ending at the end of a chapter, and you make the decision. Do you find out

00:37:16   what happened or do you go to bed?

00:37:18   Yeah, and you know, the people making these shows are not surprised by how they're being

00:37:22   distributed. They can, they should be able to tailor the show so that it works in the

00:37:27   format that it's, that it's, you know, being presented, which is why, you know, Stranger

00:37:30   Things is a great example. And we've talked about this before on Twitter and with our

00:37:35   friend Todd, the idea of opening credits, shows that are made in an era of streaming

00:37:43   services where there is a potential for you to watch episode after episode have to decide

00:37:48   decide whether they're going to try to have a big, long, luxurious intro and then allow

00:37:54   people to hit the skip intro button in their streaming service of choice, or whether they're

00:37:59   going to try to have a really tight but entertaining intro that people will actually watch instead

00:38:04   of hitting the skip intro. I think season one of Stranger Things had a fairly long intro

00:38:08   sequence by sort of normal standards, but it was so artfully done that I watched that

00:38:14   intro for probably more than half of the episodes of Stranger Things because it was so good.

00:38:19   And so...

00:38:20   I watched the intro to most shows. I watched the Game of Thrones intro every week.

00:38:24   Not House of Cards, though. That was like 10 minutes long.

00:38:28   I would watch it.

00:38:29   Well, watch it or would you allow it to play while you, you know, pick boogers?

00:38:32   Yeah, like go get a beverage and pick some boogers. Yeah. Yeah, I guess now that I think

00:38:38   about it, I skipped sometimes.

00:38:40   Because that one was really long.

00:38:42   And things didn't grab you. The point is that it's possible to, you know, all of these television

00:38:49   shows, movies, whatever, should be made with the knowledge of how they're going to be viewed

00:38:53   and distributed. And so you can work within that framework to do very interesting things.

00:38:57   Dave Asprey I'm not a fan. The one thing that Netflix really bothers me is I don't like the

00:39:02   race at the end of the episode to quick get the remote and let the music play. You know, like one

00:39:10   One of the cool things, you know, lots of shows do it, but they'll pick at the end

00:39:13   of an episode.

00:39:14   Instead of having a theme song like you do at the opening credits, you play a unique

00:39:19   song, picked just for this episode to sort of set the mood and let yourself ease out

00:39:25   of the show.

00:39:26   And the filmmakers behind the shows carefully picked and licensed these songs.

00:39:31   I want to hear it.

00:39:32   I want to hear the music sometimes.

00:39:34   And with Netflix, you're…

00:39:36   And it's like, "Hey, Netflix, I'm dealing with an Apple TV remote here.

00:39:39   You gotta give me some extra time.

00:39:43   And the thing is, the UI of these streaming servers constitutes a form of spoilers in

00:39:47   many cases because if you don't see the little prompt for the next episode, you know there's

00:39:53   a post-credit sequence.

00:39:55   Or you know there's an inter-credit sequence.

00:39:58   That's happened to me many times where the thing doesn't pop up and I'm like, "Oh, there's

00:40:02   more to it."

00:40:03   And I would rather have experienced that organically or not at all.

00:40:06   I feel like the best kind of post-credits or mid-credits sequence are the kind where

00:40:11   you discover it on your own or you don't. If you just turned off the TV, then you don't

00:40:15   get to see it. But if you did leave it running, it's a pleasant surprise. That's the best

00:40:19   form of it. Unlike things like the Marvel movies where we've all been conditioned as

00:40:23   a society to sit through ten years of credits because we know there will be post-credits

00:40:27   sequences, possible multiple ones. TV shows, you never know. Sometimes they'll just be

00:40:30   one at the end of a series or end of a season, or a show will never do one and then just

00:40:34   do one randomly in the middle. I know a lot of people who watched, I mean, I don't, okay,

00:40:39   some people watch a show that I really enjoy that I don't want to spoil that did have a

00:40:43   sort of mid-credits post-credits sequence that lots of people just never saw. And it

00:40:48   really changes the entire plot of the show because it's the kind of, you know, twist

00:40:54   on a twist ending thing. And I've talked to people and they're like, I watched that whole

00:40:59   show and then I heard you talk about it and I had no idea what you're talking about. And

00:41:04   and then I went back and watched them. I was like, "Oh, that's perfect," because

00:41:08   you can watch the show and be satisfied with it when—just turn it off when the credits

00:41:12   start to roll. But if you kept watching, you got a little bonus.

00:41:15   Dave: Stranger Things, I thought season three was pretty great. I thought it was probably

00:41:19   my favorite season. That says a lot because I liked the first season a lot. I thought

00:41:24   second season was a little, "Eh." And then usually by the third season, it's

00:41:29   fading away. You usually don't think about that, but I thought it was great. I thought

00:41:33   that they—to my eyes and my recollection, they nailed mid-'80s mall culture absolutely

00:41:41   perfectly. I don't know how much money they spent to recreate an '80s mall, but it was

00:41:46   money well spent because it was perfect.

00:41:47   Eric Meyer Did you see that? What they used was one of

00:41:50   those abandoned '80s malls, like an actual abandoned '80s mall, and then they dressed

00:41:54   it up, which is probably the only way you could do it short of CG. So that aspect was

00:41:59   For me, season one is still far and away the best season of Stranger Things by like miles and miles.

00:42:04   Season two, I have fond memories of, but that's only the bits I can remember.

00:42:09   And it was weird, you know, but fine.

00:42:12   Season three, I felt like it was very straightforward and it felt like a little bit like they were going through the motions,

00:42:17   and I think they were a little bit confused about what to do with these characters.

00:42:19   This is the problem with having any show with kids as the stars.

00:42:22   They start to grow up and they get awkward and the show has to decide when to start treating

00:42:28   them like adults and when to keep treating them like kids.

00:42:30   And I feel like Stranger Things is in that awkward phase.

00:42:33   I enjoyed it.

00:42:34   I just feel like season one is just so much better.

00:42:36   It was just lightning in a bottle because it was the kids at the right age and it's

00:42:40   a show and, you know, some sort of nostalgia and throwback and homages to things that we're

00:42:46   familiar with just at the right time.

00:42:47   And it was, I was riveted for season one and season two and three, and it's just a show

00:42:51   that I'm watching and enjoying.

00:42:52   And somehow an original take on the supernatural, you know, it was something—

00:42:57   I'm not sure how original it is, but it's like Quentin Tarantino original, where you

00:43:01   see all the influences, but then they are channeled through this other creative person

00:43:05   and it makes them more than what they were.

00:43:06   Yes, that's a good way to put it.

00:43:08   Right.

00:43:09   There's nothing new under the sun making supernatural movies.

00:43:11   And that's what we always want, but some people are more open about it.

00:43:13   Like everyone is always remixing everything they've experienced into their own creations,

00:43:16   but sometimes what comes out is something that isn't immediately recognizable as a

00:43:20   combination of the source materials. But then there are people, again, like Tarantino, who

00:43:24   you so clearly see their influences. You clearly see what they love. And they make this new

00:43:28   great thing, but you can draw direct lines back to all this other stuff. It's very clear,

00:43:33   unlike other art where you would never know they were inspired by something until you

00:43:37   saw an interview with a director.

00:43:39   Right. Did they ever figure out, did they ever tell us what the hell happened to that

00:43:43   Barb?

00:43:44   Yeah, she's dead.

00:43:45   Oh, she's dead.

00:43:46   Well, alert.

00:43:47   Sorry, Barb. Let me take a break here. Thank our good friends at Eero. E-E-R-O. Eero blankets

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00:44:18   They're very good looking.

00:44:20   The ones that plug into the wall, they call them the beacons.

00:44:23   They have a night light so they can shine down on the floor.

00:44:26   If you don't want the night light, use the app.

00:44:28   Turn it off.

00:44:29   Easy as pie.

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00:44:31   The whole thing, you set it up.

00:44:33   It is so easy to set up.

00:44:35   It is so uncomplicated.

00:44:37   So requires no networking expertise to get a network with multiple devices that blankets

00:44:44   our whole home with coverage and you do it all through their app which is a really really

00:44:48   good app. I have the feature on I like it I don't know why but I like the I get Nick

00:44:55   notifications when a new device joins my network sometimes my kid will bring a friend over

00:45:00   and it'll say new Apple devices on the network I like knowing that really don't know why

00:45:06   but it's there if you want it you don't want it you can turn it off I'm talking to you

00:45:11   over an Eero network right now. It is a great product. I use it myself whole house right

00:45:16   here. It's covered with Eero networking. Where do you go to find out more? Go to ero.com/the

00:45:24   talk show and enter code the talk show at checkout and you get free overnight shipping

00:45:30   with your order. That's ero.com/the talk show with the code for the checkout, the talk show

00:45:36   and you get your Eero delivered with free overnight shipping, you got to use that URL

00:45:41   though to receive the offer. Eero.com/talkshow. Their website will help you pick just how

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00:45:57   for the Wi-Fi I'm using right now. Let's get into it because who knows how long it's going

00:46:05   ago. But do you do you miss writing your OS 10 reviews, Mac OS 10 reviews?

00:46:10   A little bit.

00:46:15   What was the average, you know, like offhand, what was the average word count?

00:46:19   I think there was like, maybe it was it was lumpy, maybe 30k. Something like that.

00:46:26   It's it's closer to a they were closer to short books than long articles.

00:46:32   Yeah, I sold them as ebooks for the past, for the final three or four or five, I don't

00:46:39   even remember how many. But yeah, when I think about it, I remember the writing process.

00:46:46   I think about how long it would take. It's kind of like doing a legal copy where a contract

00:46:52   is a certain length, but every sentence has to be vetted. When you're doing technical

00:46:57   It's just I have sort of like school forgot my homework forgot. I was signed up for a class type of

00:47:03   stress dreams about

00:47:06   trying to imagine, you know, you've written something that's like

00:47:10   20 30 40 thousand words and every single line of it is a

00:47:15   Like that's not an opinion is a statement of fact about a product that that isn't released yet

00:47:21   and that is subject to change at any time and

00:47:25   And that you have to publish on the day the thing is released.

00:47:29   And every single fact in it needs to be true of the version that they release.

00:47:33   I still have like stress dreams and waking sort of jolts about that.

00:47:38   Like it was just, it would take so long to do, to just to get through like two paragraphs of text,

00:47:47   because every single sentence made assertions and, and even the opinions were based on those

00:47:52   assertions. So you can't even leave the opinions because you're like, this thing is terrible,

00:47:56   and it ends up they change that thing to work a different way. Now that opinion has to be removed

00:48:00   or revised and you have to decide what you think about it and write a new thing about it.

00:48:03   I guess I don't miss that part. >> First nickety things like file paths,

00:48:07   and is there a tilde in front of the library or is that the root level library? And you got to get

00:48:12   every single bit of that. >> Much more

00:48:15   esoteric things than that. Like the screenshots alone because they change stuff around.

00:48:19   I think that's what drove you over the edge, was where the screenshots...

00:48:23   I mean, the screenshots towards the end, the screenshots were the part that I enjoyed the

00:48:26   most because I really started to just insist on...

00:48:31   My standards for screenshots just got higher and higher to the point where nobody reading

00:48:35   the article appreciated the extra level of effort I was putting into it.

00:48:38   Like the point of diminishing returns was like three reviews before I ended it.

00:48:42   I just kept going.

00:48:43   I wanted the screenshots to be artful.

00:48:45   I wanted the content to be interesting.

00:48:48   I wanted there never to be any blurred or blocked out things in them, but of course

00:48:52   I didn't want to reveal any actual personal information.

00:48:55   I wanted them to be composed well.

00:48:57   I wanted them to show multiple things in a single screenshot.

00:48:59   I needed them to be written to resolution.

00:49:02   Like it was just, it went on and on and on.

00:49:06   And that's, that's one of the parts that I threw myself into towards the end.

00:49:11   But yeah, that was a nightmare.

00:49:12   But no, just like even the technical stuff about exactly how something works under the

00:49:15   the covers and what this command does

00:49:18   and what technology they're using underlying this

00:49:20   and what this data structure looks like.

00:49:22   And they've changed that stuff.

00:49:24   And every time a new build came out,

00:49:27   you'd have to go through and re-vet all of your past work

00:49:30   and then continue writing if you were still

00:49:32   in the process of writing it.

00:49:33   It's just exhausting.

00:49:36   Does it bother you?

00:49:37   It bothers me.

00:49:38   I feel like they should have stuck with a name.

00:49:40   It bothers me that they went from Mac OS X to OS X

00:49:43   now to Mac OS because it makes it hard to…

00:49:47   Adam: To talk about it in retrospect, yeah.

00:49:50   Tom Bilyeu: Yeah. When it was all Mac OS X, you could say Mac OS X 10.4 and Mac OS X 10.5

00:49:57   and you didn't have to mix it. I think I'm actually kind of inconsistent on it. What

00:50:02   do I do now when I refer back to a 10-year-old version? Do I call it Mac OS X or do I use

00:50:08   Mac OS for consistency with the current version?

00:50:11   You gotta call it what it was named at the time.

00:50:13   Like there is the, I forget which one, I think it was Lion or whatever was the in-betweeny

00:50:16   one where Apple was pushing, trying to say OS X without the Mac, but they didn't really

00:50:21   commit to it except for like retroactively.

00:50:23   So there was one that was in the middle, but every other one is fairly definitively has

00:50:28   an a product name.

00:50:29   When you're referring to a specific version, it's easy to use the name that it was called

00:50:33   when it was released.

00:50:34   If you're referring to like the first 15 versions of the Mac operating system, I would go to

00:50:39   like the Mac operating system or some other generic term that

00:50:42   is descriptive but does not pin it down.

00:50:44   And when I speak about it, I try to do that.

00:50:48   But then if I need to refer to the whole group

00:50:50   as an actual product name, I usually go Mac OS X or OS X.

00:50:54   Because it still seems like in a non-marketing sense,

00:50:58   at a technical sense, that's still the canonical name.

00:51:01   Like there's some command line utilities like-- what is there?

00:51:05   Like sysinfo or sysversion.

00:51:07   There's things you can type at the command line.

00:51:09   that'll tell you what version of the operating system you're running, and it still calls

00:51:13   itself Mac OS X. There's still places where it still says that.

00:51:16   I'll hunt down those strings eventually. The main thing that I'm disappointed about

00:51:20   the naming is that I enjoy the consistency of the new naming scheme, but I hate it. I

00:51:24   don't like the actual naming scheme, the lowercase then going to uppercase. I find

00:51:28   that aesthetically unpleasing. It's almost as bad as what you do, which is making up

00:51:33   your own naming scheme that is like the Apple naming scheme, but changed in a way that you

00:51:37   find more pleasing?

00:51:38   Well, it's because I don't play games with the capital side.

00:51:41   But you do.

00:51:42   You're playing your own game.

00:51:43   You're like, "I've come up with my own naming scheme.

00:51:44   Good."

00:51:45   But I firmly believe that for the most part, you don't—one doesn't—spelling is letters,

00:51:52   not case.

00:51:53   And case is a style that you put on it.

00:51:56   So in the same way that I wouldn't follow their direction if they said, "We always

00:52:00   italicize the word Mac OS."

00:52:02   Always.

00:52:03   It's always italics.

00:52:04   I wouldn't italicize it.

00:52:05   Well, you've gone to a third level.

00:52:07   You've got the letters, you've got capitalization, and now you're saying, like, "Font face."

00:52:12   Like, that's a third level, right?

00:52:15   But I take your point.

00:52:16   You decided that the spelling is just the letters, which I think is ridiculous, and

00:52:19   I'm sure there are examples in English where the case is so important that it changes the

00:52:23   meaning of the thing.

00:52:24   But I'm saying, aesthetically, I actually find capital M, lowercase a c, capital O,

00:52:29   capital S, to be less aesthetically pleasing than the way Apple wants you to say it.

00:52:34   it looks like, I always love Mac space OS. I love that name. It was, you know, classic

00:52:39   Mac OS. It was called that later in its life. You've taken that name and squished it up

00:52:44   in a way that people used to do mistakenly.

00:52:45   Dave Asprey Right. No, my friend, Nat Irons, who's easily

00:52:50   top two typo reporters in Daring Fireball history, along with my friend Chris Pepper,

00:52:56   but dozens, dozens, probably hundreds of typos he's reported to me over the years, long-time

00:53:00   reader. Like, when they first switched to this, he was like, "This is driving me nuts,"

00:53:04   he's the type of anal-retentive, careful reader who not only notices typos when I make them,

00:53:10   but then immediately will text me because he knows I care and I want to hear about it.

00:53:15   When they first changed the name, he was like—because he's a long-time Apple user, and he was just

00:53:19   like, "I spent an entire decade in the '90s correcting people when they closed up MacOS.

00:53:25   I can't even with this."

00:53:27   I mean, at least it's consistent. Apple naming has had problems in recent years, so

00:53:33   So I applaud them for a successful attempt to attain consistency even if it is consistently

00:53:38   mediocre.

00:53:39   What do you think they're going to do with the iPhone name this year?

00:53:44   Think they're going to go to 11?

00:53:46   And it seems like they have to do something in addition to just 11.

00:53:50   They could do 11 and 11 max, but then what do you call the 10R model?

00:53:55   Yeah, I don't know.

00:53:57   I mean, like there's with Apple being so inconsistent

00:54:01   with naming, you can't really look at the past

00:54:05   and try to predict what they're gonna do based on that.

00:54:08   The one thing that the past tells us is that

00:54:11   Apple has been willing to take the Roman numeral 10

00:54:15   and use it without incrementing it for a long time.

00:54:19   - Right. - Right.

00:54:19   And also what they did with the iPad

00:54:21   where they decided not to put a number on it,

00:54:23   the new iPad, that whole business, right?

00:54:25   So I feel like that option is on the table,

00:54:28   that these things end up being called the iPhone 10

00:54:30   and the iPhone 10s and the iPhone,

00:54:32   but I don't think it's a likely.

00:54:34   It's just, I just feel like that is a possibility,

00:54:37   a plausible possibility.

00:54:38   But honestly, at this point, almost anything is plausible.

00:54:41   The number 11 is certainly plausible.

00:54:43   A Roman numeral, an X and then an I is plausible.

00:54:46   Would be terrible, but it's plausible.

00:54:48   I mean, just think, is that beyond,

00:54:51   is that beyond what Apple would do?

00:54:52   No, it is not beyond what modern Apple would do.

00:54:54   Apple would totally make that name.

00:54:56   - Yeah, if they use Roman numerals at all,

00:54:58   they could use it, you never, you can't roll it out.

00:55:00   - Yeah, and in the end,

00:55:02   because they've been so inconsistent,

00:55:04   I think they've conditioned us not to attach,

00:55:07   at least condition me,

00:55:08   not to get too hung up on the names,

00:55:10   'cause they're always gonna be a little bit of a mess,

00:55:12   and they're not gonna really make any sense,

00:55:14   and stop hoping for an inspired name.

00:55:17   The inspired name is iPhone,

00:55:19   and even that's not that inspired,

00:55:20   'cause when we were all predicting,

00:55:23   back in the job I was working at before the iPhone came out,

00:55:25   we'd make our W3C predictions on a big whiteboard.

00:55:27   We wrote iPhone on that whiteboard for years

00:55:29   before the iPhone came out.

00:55:30   It was the obvious name for the thing.

00:55:32   And Apple makes, you know, it's the reverse

00:55:35   where you come up with a name

00:55:36   and it's not that the name is great,

00:55:37   it's that the product is great

00:55:38   and the greatness flows backward into the name.

00:55:41   iPhone is a great name.

00:55:42   The stuff they put after it and the letters and everything,

00:55:45   whatever, like we'll get used to whatever they pick.

00:55:48   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:55:49   But I feel like they can't keep incrementing the numbers.

00:55:52   Are they really going to go to 13?

00:55:54   Yeah, what is Samsung?

00:55:55   Is Samsung just crossing the 10 barrier this year?

00:55:57   I forget.

00:55:57   Yeah, because they just released this week the Samsung Galaxy

00:56:05   Note 10.

00:56:08   I think it's called the Note 10.

00:56:09   So they're up at 10.

00:56:11   And they had the respect not to use a Roman numeral.

00:56:14   I think I talked about this on ADP,

00:56:16   but other companies have had what

00:56:18   in massively multiplayer online role-playing game parlance

00:56:23   is a stat crunch, where you name your product

00:56:26   and you keep incrementing the number

00:56:27   and it eventually becomes so big that it's unwieldy

00:56:30   and you rescale all the numbers.

00:56:32   The API did it for their video cards.

00:56:34   They were going up to like the Radeon 7,000 something,

00:56:37   8,000 something, 9,000 something,

00:56:39   and they were pushing up against like 9,700.

00:56:41   And they're like, are we going to go to 10,000?

00:56:43   Or maybe we could call it 10K?

00:56:44   And they just did a stat crunch.

00:56:45   like, Nope, now it's the Radeon, like 100 200 300. They just reset everything back so

00:56:50   far that it's not confusing. You don't think what is the 9700 better than the new 9400?

00:56:56   It's like, if the question is, is the 9700 better than the 500? They're so far apart

00:57:00   that it's clear they're not in the same family. So just reset everything. I don't think Apple

00:57:04   will do that. But tech companies have done that multiple times in the past. And it's,

00:57:09   it's a corner that you paint yourself into eventually, if you just keep making the number

00:57:12   bigger.

00:57:13   So you don't even—now that you don't write these reviews, you're not—it's

00:57:17   not just that you're not spending your summer writing and screenshotting a 30,000K booklet

00:57:23   on the new operating system. You're not even running it, right? Because you can't

00:57:27   run it on your Mac Pro.

00:57:28   I took a long time off of just like—I wanted to be completely ignorant of the new Mac operating

00:57:34   system just because it was so relaxing, right? But now I'm more like the average tech nerd.

00:57:39   I have the beta installed.

00:57:41   I fiddle with it.

00:57:42   I instinctively go through sort of my normal routine

00:57:48   after a thing is installed.

00:57:49   Basically a routine that lets me look at every piece of user

00:57:52   interface.

00:57:52   Like I go through every preference pane

00:57:54   and every screen and every tab and every menu item

00:57:56   and launch every single bundle app.

00:57:58   It's just sort of like a thing I do to sort of go through the OS

00:58:02   to find out what's new and maybe look at the versions of command

00:58:05   line tools.

00:58:06   I still do that.

00:58:07   But then I don't take notes and I don't do it with an eye

00:58:09   retaining anything. And so now I'm more just like a casual, "Oh, look at this fun thing. Oh,

00:58:13   let's try this. Oh, let's do that." But that's about it.

00:58:16   What's your take on dark mode? I'm personally not a fan. I think it's

00:58:22   great that it exists. I think it's a lot of work for developers for a feature that

00:58:28   on my list of things that Apple should prioritize in the operating system is fairly low,

00:58:34   but I'm not going to ding them for it because it is a good thing to have. And if they're not

00:58:38   going to allow theming, which they're not, and Apple's the only one that can do it, they

00:58:42   did a really good, I feel like they did a really good job with dark mode. A very difficult

00:58:46   task which is make a dark mode, whichever, it's easy to say dark mode, I just want it

00:58:51   to be not so bright. Okay, but also I want everything to still be legible and like this

00:58:56   is what you're not saying, and I want to be able to tell where everything is and I want

00:58:59   the window layering still to work and I don't want it to be ugly and I want my applications

00:59:03   to be able to support it in an intelligent way. It's a big, big, much more complicated

00:59:08   feature than you think it is, and Apple I think did a really good job of implementing

00:59:12   it. And I see a lot of people using it at work. But there are a lot of other features

00:59:17   that I would have slotted ahead of it in terms of what Apple could have spent time on.

00:59:21   Dave Asprey Wildly popular at WWDC. And I want everybody

00:59:25   to be comfortable reading and true dark mode as we now have on iOS and Mac OS after a year

00:59:32   is so much nicer on the eyes than using the accessibility feature to just invert,

00:59:38   do just a sort of a dumb inversion where everything light goes dark. And I'm sure that that feature

00:59:46   isn't as simple as I'm thinking either, but aesthetically it is so much more pleasing. And

00:59:50   there's so many more subtle cues like with the accessibility feature. What was a drop shadow

00:59:56   looks like a glow because it's just inverted. Whereas with dark mode, they've done some very

01:00:02   clever stuff to provide hints of depth without going to a glow. But cognitively, I can't—the

01:00:11   only app—you know, I run BB Edit in dark mode. So BB Edit sticks out and I like writing

01:00:16   on a dark background in BB Edit. But that's just one app and it helps me identify that

01:00:23   dark window over on the left. There's my BB Edit window. Especially on iOS, trying

01:00:30   it on the betas over the summer, there's something cognitively that just does not work

01:00:35   for me in dark mode. I'm sitting there and I'm going through emails and I realize

01:00:40   that I don't remember any of the emails I just read.

01:00:43   Adam: Yeah, I think I talked about this when dark mode was first announced last year. For

01:00:50   me personally, culturally, I don't want my computer to work this way because of the

01:00:58   historical baggage. Like when I was a kid, all my first computers were a black CRT with

01:01:04   light text on it, whether it's monochrome green or amber or whatever. And that's how

01:01:09   all computers were until the Mac, which was the reverse. And the Mac was like, sheets

01:01:14   of paper are white and ink is black. That's the cultural context of this computer. And

01:01:20   it was such a clean break from computer and thing that culturally acknowledges the written

01:01:27   written word and drawings and everything in the way that you are familiar with it outside

01:01:31   the computer world. And that, I've totally imprinted on that. I want black text on a

01:01:36   white background whenever I see text, including in BB Edit and everywhere else. So every single

01:01:42   other person at work has their text editor in dark mode with the candy colored syntax

01:01:46   highlighted code all over it. All of my text windows are white and the text is black. Now

01:01:51   obviously eventually if I can't look at that because of ice grain or some other reason,

01:01:55   There's lots of accessibility reasons to prefer dark, but culturally, philosophically,

01:02:00   and emotionally, the Mac is white background with black text on it to me.

01:02:05   JEFFREY GROSSMANN Yeah, because part of the—we just don't

01:02:09   use the phrase "wizzy wig" that much anymore, and it's just—for good reason.

01:02:13   JIM KEOHANE Well, you don't, Mr. Markdown.

01:02:15   JEFFREY GROSSMANN Right.

01:02:16   Well, you can get "wizzy wig" in a preview window.

01:02:19   JIM KEOHANE That's not what "wizzy wig" means.

01:02:21   JEFFREY GROSSMANN I know, I know, because you're not editing.

01:02:23   So, how many people listen to the podcast when we say WYSIWYG know what we even mean

01:02:29   anymore?

01:02:30   I wonder.

01:02:31   I do wonder.

01:02:32   W-I-Z-Z-Y-W-I-G is what I think we're saying.

01:02:35   Right.

01:02:36   Yeah, maybe.

01:02:37   But part of the WYSIWYG revolution of the 1984 Mac wasn't just that when you opened

01:02:44   a word processor that you didn't have to input formatting codes and that you had real

01:02:52   fonts to pick from and if you put an image in you actually saw the image right where

01:02:57   it was. But it was just like you said, like it was the fact that it was a white window

01:03:01   with black text. So it was even more what you see is what you get because you could

01:03:05   you know what you saw on screen.

01:03:08   It was like the original Mac, right? The original Mac. There was one Mac, there was only one.

01:03:12   There was one printer that you could hook up to it. And if you bought that Mac and you

01:03:16   bought that printer and you bought Mac, right. And you wrote something in Mac, right. And

01:03:20   had it in your MacWrite window and then you printed it and then you took that piece of

01:03:23   paper and you held it up against the damn screen that you just typed it on. The idea

01:03:26   was what you saw is what you get. And that became increasingly less true over time as

01:03:33   DPI monitors changed and printers changes. But in general, that was the promise and the

01:03:38   dream and it was absolutely unheard of in any other context because the printer, you

01:03:44   know, character printers, they printed whatever the hell characters they wanted. They didn't

01:03:47   care what was on your screen, right? And the other ones were, you know, like a sort of

01:03:51   desktop publishing type system or with formatting codes or whatever. What you printed out had

01:03:56   no relation to the gibberish you were seeing on your screen, right? And the Mac was, you

01:04:01   know, what you see is actually what you get more or less. And it was amazing.

01:04:07   It was definitely a revolution and I don't think people picked that up. And yeah, I have

01:04:11   the same cultural feelings about Dark Mode 2, where it just doesn't look right to me.

01:04:18   What are your thoughts on the sort of increasing—I don't know if it's all sandboxing—but

01:04:25   the increasing number of warnings when you do "dangerous things" on macOS? I know

01:04:34   Jason Snell has written and talked about it quite a bit recently. I haven't listened

01:04:40   the most recent version of his podcast, but I know he got some feedback from Apple about it.

01:04:47   I don't know. I don't know what the solution is. I get why they're doing some of these things.

01:04:53   I really hope that they're not just tightening down hypotheticals, that they're really like,

01:05:02   "Hey, we know some bad things, some things that apps have been doing, and so we're doing this

01:05:07   this for good reason, not just because it could be. But boy, it's starting to get annoying,

01:05:14   in my opinion.

01:05:15   **Matt Stauffer:** Yeah. If I was still writing reviews, first

01:05:20   of all, I would have experienced this more because just fiddling around as I just described

01:05:25   the new beta operating system, you won't run across this until you actually start using

01:05:28   it to do real work. Or if you know that they're making changes in this area and you will investigate

01:05:33   deeply and do a bunch of synthetic experiments to find out what the barriers are. This, incidentally,

01:05:39   would be a nightmare section to do because these are the type of policy changes that

01:05:43   they can make right up to the last minute. Like, the mechanisms are all there. Like,

01:05:46   here, we have a system for controlling this, but you can change the policy in the OS at

01:05:50   any point and probably already have changed the policy.

01:05:53   So, yeah, I see what they're going for, but I think if I had to write about this, I would

01:06:00   get very philosophical and say, like, the goals of safety,

01:06:07   predictability, and confinement are laudable.

01:06:12   But the best way to get the thing

01:06:15   that you have to the state where those goals are achieved

01:06:17   may not be to take the thing that you have

01:06:19   and just start putting tiny padlocks

01:06:22   on every single little door.

01:06:23   Like, the reason iOS has these properties

01:06:26   that they want to bring to the Mac

01:06:28   that iOS is fundamentally different in many ways.

01:06:31   And I don't think you can get the Mac

01:06:34   to that level of security by taking the Mac as it exists

01:06:37   and putting tiny locks all over the place.

01:06:39   Like technically, you probably can,

01:06:41   but it will be a terrible experience.

01:06:42   This is the reason iOS doesn't work this way.

01:06:45   If this is your goal, you have to look at the Mac and say,

01:06:49   are there parts of the system that we

01:06:51   need to change in radical ways to get to there?

01:06:55   Rather than saying, here is how the system works,

01:06:57   How can we start making minor modifications to slowly ratchet our way up to that level

01:07:02   of security?

01:07:03   Because that is putting the security ahead of the user experience in a mild way, but

01:07:10   that eventually cumulatively makes the overall experience much worse.

01:07:12   Right.

01:07:13   And it's like I want—I think bicycles should be made to be as safe as possible.

01:07:18   But sometimes you want to ride your bicycle dangerously fast.

01:07:22   And it's your bicycle, and you should be allowed to do that.

01:07:24   Well, that's the second thing.

01:07:25   I didn't even touch on that thing, which is, okay.

01:07:27   But what if that goal of being like iOS in terms of security is incompatible with one

01:07:32   of the reasons that people like Macs?

01:07:35   Then you've got a dilemma there, because it's like, do we just decide that that's not the

01:07:40   way our devices are going to work moving forward?

01:07:43   Or can we preserve that thing that people like about the Mac and provide that functionality,

01:07:49   continue to provide it in a safer way?

01:07:52   And the current thing is, you know, the best example of these entitlements that all these

01:07:56   this temporary stuff in the name.

01:07:58   It's like temporary, like this is fundamentally

01:08:02   how insert program here works.

01:08:05   Either programs like this are going to be allowed to exist

01:08:07   or they're not going to be allowed to exist.

01:08:09   But there's no amount of temporary indulgences

01:08:14   that you can give it.

01:08:15   Like it's just, it's like,

01:08:17   do you not understand the tension here?

01:08:18   People want to use their Macs to do this thing.

01:08:20   Saying you can keep doing that thing for now

01:08:24   is not reassuring.

01:08:25   What we want to hear is, we've come up

01:08:27   with a safer, better way for your thing

01:08:30   to continue doing its thing.

01:08:31   And they've never said that.

01:08:32   They're just like, we'll grandfather you in.

01:08:36   Here's some temporary entitlements.

01:08:37   They never come out and say, have you considered not

01:08:43   being that kind of application?

01:08:45   I don't know if they actually tell the people that.

01:08:47   Have you considered not having access to the whole file system?

01:08:50   It's like, I'm a disk cloning application.

01:08:52   Have you considered not being a disk cloning application?

01:08:55   It's like, do you want disk cloning applications

01:08:57   to exist or not?

01:08:58   If you do want them to exist,

01:09:00   that has to be on your list of requirements.

01:09:02   You can't just hope they go away

01:09:05   and give them temporary entitlements

01:09:06   and litter them with dialogue boxes.

01:09:09   There's a disconnect between any sort of

01:09:12   coherent future vision for the Mac

01:09:14   and what changes they've been making

01:09:17   in the operating system.

01:09:18   Like they're diverging.

01:09:20   - The one I ran into a couple months ago

01:09:22   was I was doing something in terminal.

01:09:24   And I forget where I wanted to go,

01:09:25   but maybe it was in one of those containers

01:09:27   in my home library folder.

01:09:29   I don't know.

01:09:30   I was somewhere where there are protections.

01:09:33   Like, I don't know, maybe in my mail folders or something.

01:09:36   And I'm in terminal and I typed LS

01:09:38   and there was like nothing.

01:09:39   I got no results.

01:09:40   I'm like, there's gotta be, I know there's stuff here.

01:09:42   And I like opened, like open dot just to open this current.

01:09:47   Isn't that what you type to get it open in a finder?

01:09:52   So I did that and I saw if the finder could see these files and I go back to terminal

01:09:56   and type LS and there's nothing.

01:09:59   I realized I had to grant terminal full disk access, but I didn't get – it didn't

01:10:03   say – there was no warning.

01:10:06   I just had to know it.

01:10:07   For some reason, like with apps like BB Edit, which I grant full disk access to so I can

01:10:14   open anything and super duper a disk cloning utility where you obviously – it's like

01:10:19   I know that I've got to grant SuperDuper full disk access.

01:10:24   And SuperDuper, even if it doesn't have it,

01:10:26   will hopefully tell me when it launches that, hey, you need to--

01:10:31   we can't do our thing without full disk access,

01:10:33   because that was like an alternate name for the app,

01:10:37   full disk access.

01:10:39   Whereas Terminal, I spent more minutes

01:10:42   scratching my head on this than I would like to admit,

01:10:45   because who would ever think that Terminal wouldn't

01:10:49   able to just list files wherever you are. Like, I'm in terminal.

01:10:54   Yeah, that's another thing that Apple has done recently. And again, I understand the reasons for

01:10:58   it, but it violates some sort of the mental model of a whole different sort of cultural domain,

01:11:05   which is system integrity protection. The Unix model has always been, if you're root, you can

01:11:09   do anything. System integrity protection changed that. You can be root and also not be able to do

01:11:15   something, it just doesn't even make any sense from the model of Unix, which is fine to have

01:11:19   different models and change things around, but that's getting back to one of the things

01:11:24   that people love about Macs, was Unix with a nice GUI on top. Some people who love Unix

01:11:28   love Macs, some people who love Macs love Unix, and some people who both love them.

01:11:32   And both of those realms are seeing changes, and to be fair, this happens in Unix outside

01:11:36   of the Mac as well, where Unix does change over time, but to make that kind of change,

01:11:43   Like this is the thing you're going to do.

01:11:44   It's like we want to have system integrity and protection.

01:11:46   We want there to be things that root can't do.

01:11:48   A Unix-y way to make that change, a more Unix-y way, would be to define a new super

01:11:56   root user that's rootier than root.

01:11:58   So that you would keep the model the same, but that there would be a Unix-y way to, you

01:12:02   know, if you sudo from mute with some flag, you can become the super duper root and you

01:12:07   can still do everything.

01:12:08   Like, in other words, change Unix,

01:12:11   but change it in a way that still feels like Unix.

01:12:14   You just added one more layer of stuff.

01:12:17   And system integrity and protection is like,

01:12:18   the answer is reboot with it off or whatever.

01:12:21   Like, I understand why they did it the way they did it,

01:12:22   because it's a security feature,

01:12:23   and if you could just bypass it that easily,

01:12:25   but entering your admin password, it just becomes like,

01:12:27   it all makes sense.

01:12:28   I'm just saying, it feels uncomfortable

01:12:32   to take a well-established, I keep saying culture,

01:12:35   but that's really what it is,

01:12:36   a well-established culture of a realm of computing,

01:12:40   and start modifying it in ways that fly

01:12:44   in the face of the history,

01:12:46   like that are not well integrated with the whole.

01:12:48   - Yeah, you expect pseudo-LS to always list the files

01:12:53   in the current system.

01:12:54   You don't really expect, it's not a very Unix-y thing

01:12:57   to say, well, go find terminal app,

01:12:59   or go to your system preferences and hit a plus button

01:13:02   and choose it from a GUI picker to grant full disk.

01:13:06   - Or if I can't delete a file,

01:13:07   change it to any VRAM setting and reboot,

01:13:09   and then you'll be able to delete the file.

01:13:11   - Yeah, that doesn't really fit either.

01:13:15   The other thing, so I'm torn on this,

01:13:18   and I know Jason and I went back and forth

01:13:21   on Twitter about it.

01:13:22   Like I kind of, there's a part of me that says

01:13:24   that I want like an expert mode.

01:13:26   I want, and maybe it's not even a checkbox

01:13:29   in system preferences.

01:13:30   Maybe it's like a thing you have to type at the command line in terminal just to sort

01:13:35   of show your command line bona fides.

01:13:38   But I kind of want to turn a lot of that stuff off.

01:13:42   And I kind of wish that there was an expert mode.

01:13:43   I get it though.

01:13:45   As soon as those words come out of my mouth, I immediately – the GUI designer in me is

01:13:50   like once you start adding an expert mode, you've lost the plot a little bit.

01:13:57   Right, I mean you're bargaining.

01:13:59   Like you're just like, I can see how this could be implemented,

01:14:01   and please give it to me because I don't want to be annoyed.

01:14:03   But I think what we all really want

01:14:05   is the ability to continue to do the powerful things that we

01:14:09   enjoy the Mac for, but also in a safer way.

01:14:12   Like we want-- it's not a middle path.

01:14:15   It is a fundamental change.

01:14:18   It's like, you want the Mac to be safer.

01:14:22   You need to figure out a way to make the Mac safer,

01:14:25   while also not only retaining all the power we had before,

01:14:28   but if anything, making it more powerful.

01:14:30   And that requires rethinking on a level way

01:14:33   above sort of adding security.

01:14:36   It is, as you said many years ago, Ronco spray-on security.

01:14:39   That's not the way security works.

01:14:41   You have to--

01:14:42   No.

01:14:43   That's the way bad security works.

01:14:45   And it's a difficult problem because you see the conflict.

01:14:49   Here's the way the Mac has always worked,

01:14:50   and here's security.

01:14:51   How do I get them together?

01:14:53   What you have to think is, well, what do people actually use the Mac for?

01:14:56   Like what what in what ways do they need flexibility?

01:15:01   And along what axes does do their workflows change and then provide

01:15:06   safe, secure mechanisms to continue to make those changes?

01:15:11   And that requires rethinking at a much greater level than they're changing.

01:15:16   Like it's a type of rethinking that happened between classic Mac OS and Mac OS 10.

01:15:20   that level of rethinking is required

01:15:22   to get us to an operating system that retains and enhances

01:15:26   the power of the Mac but has the security of iOS.

01:15:28   We are never going to get there by making small changes

01:15:30   to the existing Mac operating system.

01:15:32   Right, and this death by a thousand paper

01:15:34   cuts of authorization.

01:15:35   Right, right, now it's just this terrible negotiation

01:15:37   of who's going to be the most annoyed,

01:15:39   like how secure versus how much annoyance,

01:15:41   and that is not a trade-off you want to feel like you're making.

01:15:43   iOS is a good example.

01:15:44   Not that we want the Mac to work like iOS,

01:15:46   but those trade-offs didn't happen.

01:15:49   The fundamental design of iOS is the way it is because it was designed from the beginning

01:15:53   to provide that level of security.

01:15:55   And now they're trying to add features to it, which I feel like they're able to do more

01:16:01   easily, add features to a system that's already secure in these ways than to add security

01:16:05   because there is no expectation on it.

01:16:07   Everything they've given us in iOS, every new piece of functionality has been like,

01:16:10   we've never been able to do this before.

01:16:12   So it's a blessing.

01:16:13   It's a bonus.

01:16:14   We are not starting at a level of infinite power and then watching our power wane.

01:16:17   We are starting at a level of total constraints and then rejoicing when we can use third-party

01:16:21   keyboards.

01:16:22   Right.

01:16:23   And we've all—I'm not going to say—I don't want to tempt the gods, but—so for

01:16:30   some definition of "can't," which isn't really "can't," it's probably "shouldn't."

01:16:36   And to their credit, they typically don't.

01:16:39   It's hard to take away an automation system that people really use.

01:16:44   Like, at this point, so many people in the Mac OS X era are used to having scripting

01:16:52   languages like Perl and Python and Ruby at their fingertips.

01:16:57   They're used to being able to write a Bash script or do something like that.

01:17:01   AppleScript, I mean, does anybody really think people at Apple still love AppleScript and

01:17:06   it's still around?

01:17:07   But it is still around because there are a lot of people who really count on it.

01:17:13   And apps like Keyboard Maestro, one of my favorites, have long had superpowers to automate

01:17:20   things in your on-screen buttons and stuff like that in a way that can't be scripted

01:17:28   otherwise.

01:17:29   It would be hard to take that away, but I kind of just want to authorize all of it.

01:17:35   My other complaint is that I don't feel like these entitlements, the way that you

01:17:41   as the power user who wants to change them.

01:17:44   I don't think they're organized very well at all.

01:17:46   Like I tend to think that there should be a way

01:17:51   to do it by app.

01:17:53   So that instead of fishing all over system preferences

01:17:56   to find the three places where I wanna add BB Edit

01:17:59   as a special app and give it entitlements,

01:18:01   I'd rather just say, here's BB Edit

01:18:03   and here's the permissions I want to grant to it.

01:18:06   - Yeah. - Check, check, check, check.

01:18:08   I wanna check them all.

01:18:09   Yeah, the whole system is not designed very well.

01:18:14   From a software developer's perspective,

01:18:16   the nightmare of having to explain to all your users

01:18:18   to do with this dance, there's a lot of steps.

01:18:20   The steps are complicated, and they require a bunch of skills

01:18:23   that not every Mac user has, especially

01:18:25   in this day of people being raised on iPhones.

01:18:28   It involves using another application

01:18:30   with separate windows.

01:18:31   It involves dragging something from somewhere

01:18:33   into that window.

01:18:33   As you said, there's no way to organize by application.

01:18:36   I think iOS has a better model here where, for the most part, the iOS model is that if

01:18:43   an application wants to do a thing that it requires permission for, it prompts you and

01:18:48   that you can say allow or deny right from the application. It's not like this is making

01:18:54   you go someplace else and drag a thing or whatever. And then the second thing is that

01:18:56   they're adding now is these reminders which say, "Just so you know, the Facebook application

01:19:01   has been using your location for the past three hours and here's where it..." You know,

01:19:05   those dialogue boxes.

01:19:07   That is a great, you know, suspenders to add to the belt

01:19:11   to say, yeah, we know you tapped through that dialogue

01:19:14   and it was really easy to do.

01:19:15   But just a reminder, this is what this app is doing.

01:19:18   Those two things combined makes people aware

01:19:21   of what the app is doing, while also not requiring them

01:19:24   to do more complicated stuff.

01:19:27   Like there's nothing, developers of iOS applications

01:19:29   don't have to have like a read me file or a support site

01:19:31   explaining to people how to click allow.

01:19:34   Like it's very easy to do.

01:19:37   It's way too complicated to do that on the Mac.

01:19:40   Even I find it annoying just because it's so tedious

01:19:43   and time consuming.

01:19:44   I understand the consequences.

01:19:46   If it's good enough for iOS,

01:19:47   explain to me the consequences here.

01:19:49   Allow me to quickly say yes, but then to your point,

01:19:54   have some place where this is more visible to me.

01:19:56   A Mac-like way to do it would be

01:19:58   some kind of like activity report.

01:20:00   Maybe it can be in screen time for the Mac.

01:20:03   application to show me what they're all doing. So I can look at a report if I'm interested

01:20:07   and then proactively occasionally remind me that something's doing a weird thing. So I

01:20:10   have, you know, it's a delicate balance, but that's the line they're trying to walk with

01:20:15   the Mac now and with iOS for that matter. And on the Mac there, they have made it too

01:20:20   complicated and too annoying.

01:20:21   Yeah. It's occurred to me that maybe they could put some of that in the get info window

01:20:25   in the finder. So if you select an app and you do

01:20:28   Nobody knows what that window is.

01:20:30   I do.

01:20:31   Of course. I did it 10 minutes ago today, but nobody else ever looked at that window.

01:20:38   There's another thing. This is the Mac OS X knowledge that I think even fewer people

01:20:41   know. Do you know the difference between Command-I and Command-Option-I?

01:20:44   Command-Option-I is "show info." Command-I will open a window, and then if you select

01:20:52   another file, it doesn't change. But Command-Option-I will show you a floating palette, and as the

01:20:59   Selection changes in the finder it changes what it's showing you the info for and we are the only two people who know that

01:21:04   Entire world I thought I use it all the time and it's right there versus if oh windows

01:21:10   But it's just it's such a such a relic of classic Mac OS is still hanging out there

01:21:14   And then the command option is not from classic Mac OS that's a nextism. I believe that we benefited from during transition

01:21:22   Yeah, because next was a little bit more

01:21:24   Inspectory yeah, inspector in

01:21:28   Yeah, sort of weird that they're both there, but I remember thinking it was pretty cool

01:21:31   And I can't tell anybody someone Apple will find out they're both there remove one of them. I

01:21:35   Will say while you mention it next is an exception to my spelling rules I do spell it the way that next

01:21:43   Punctuation outside the quotes and you're spelling next with the capital X and T because it just it when you spell it without

01:21:53   Their funky capitalization. It doesn't look like the same company

01:21:57   It's like it doesn't read to me as the the

01:22:01   Former company that Apple acquired with Steve Jobs just like back was all squished together with capital M

01:22:06   Doesn't read like an Apple product us because there's no Apple product by that name

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01:23:53   What's the ATP code probably just ATP?

01:23:56   Yep, I think so. Yeah, you don't know you don't listen to the ads. I

01:24:02   Can't do it I was telling Marco when we were doing I know Marco records the ads for the ATP before you guys

01:24:10   Start recording and then he can just he just slots them in

01:24:15   But when you're—I don't listen to your live telecast. I always listen to the edited

01:24:19   version. When you guys do sponsor breaks, how long do they last? Just a couple seconds?

01:24:24   Or do you guys get up and refresh your beverages?

01:24:26   Adam: In the live show?

01:24:28   Tom Bilyeu: Yeah, like when you're recording. Let's say it's Wednesday. It's last night,

01:24:31   right? You guys probably did a show last night. So when you're recording and you've got

01:24:37   a live audience that is listening along and chatting and

01:24:41   IRC

01:24:43   What other what does Marco do for the sponsor breaks? There are no sparkle sponsor breaks can't stop won't stop

01:24:48   Show must keep going but there you don't even mention it right now. We're not even mentioned

01:24:52   We don't even know where the ads are gonna be when we're done recording and a live show. I

01:24:58   Have a lot of trouble doing

01:25:02   sponsor reads in post

01:25:04   It takes me like, you know, I think I did a pretty I did it

01:25:09   You know

01:25:09   I think I did a fine job with those three sponsors reads tonight one take right there straight through off the top of my head

01:25:16   I can't think of anything

01:25:17   I forgot to mention but when I do them in post because like let's say that I don't have the ad when I'm you know

01:25:23   It's I told you I we record tonight, but I maybe I don't have the text for one of the ads

01:25:27   I'll do it tomorrow. It takes me like six takes I

01:25:31   I feel like an idiot and and I'll like and there are times where I do it

01:25:35   In posts like that and I look at the running time and it's like seven minutes and I'm like what the hell I mean

01:25:42   I know my sponsor reads are sometimes long but seven minutes. What the hell am I doing? It's like without the pressure of

01:25:47   Feeling like I'm I'm wasting you John Syracuse's or whoever my guest of the the episode is like I don't want to bore you

01:25:56   I don't want to waste your time

01:25:58   So it gives me like an edge and it keeps me sharp on a sponsor read

01:26:02   Whereas when I'm just talking to myself in a microphone

01:26:04   I do a terrible job. It's just a quiet skill just like doing the ad reads in the show

01:26:10   It's I'm sure it's a thing you could get good at if you wanted to do it

01:26:12   You got good at doing the ads in the show, right?

01:26:14   So it's just a good question of practice

01:26:16   I feel like if it's something you wanted to do a change you wanted to make you could do it

01:26:19   but I've let you sound comfortable doing them live in the show and

01:26:22   It's also a very different feeling psychologically like I feel like right here

01:26:27   we're having a conversation and I'm not talking to myself and when I first started doing podcasts,

01:26:32   I definitely was self-conscious about it. It seems weird. I never really spent much time speaking

01:26:37   into a microphone. I thought it was very weird in the first years of it hearing my own voice

01:26:44   in my headphones and technically I don't even know what changed in the interim, but there was also

01:26:50   like in the early years doing the show with Dan Benjamin. There was also a little bit of lag

01:26:54   with the audio and it would drive me nuts. I couldn't finish a sentence sometimes because

01:27:00   I'm hearing my words from half a second ago. You get used to it, but I still find if I record the

01:27:07   ads like that, I have this—it's incredibly self-conscious. I'm doing something very weird

01:27:13   talking to myself. Well, I mean, the beauty of it is you can do six takes because who cares?

01:27:20   It's time consuming, but at least you are all—it's like writing, you know, during

01:27:26   Fireball Live versus being able to write ahead of time and then decide when it's ready

01:27:30   to be published.

01:27:31   There you go.

01:27:32   I hear you bought a fridge.

01:27:34   Oh, yes.

01:27:35   I did.

01:27:37   And you talked about it with a friend of the show, Merlin Mann, on your show.

01:27:42   Honest to God, like that was—

01:27:43   Reconcilable differences.

01:27:45   I did buy a fridge, and that was intended to be like, oh, I bought a fridge.

01:27:50   Let me just mention it for two minutes.

01:27:51   But it just spooled out of me and eventually became an entire show.

01:27:57   It was not the intention.

01:27:58   And it's not even really like a good story with a twist ending or anything.

01:28:03   It's not even a story at all.

01:28:04   It is just merely a recitation of the events involving the purchase

01:28:12   and installation of a refrigerator.

01:28:13   but I'm glad people enjoyed it.

01:28:15   Yeah, I'll put a link in Rec.

01:28:18   Diff's fridge show.

01:28:20   You must have had tons of this with your new house movement.

01:28:24   Yeah, and you got to like new furniture, and new kitchen,

01:28:27   and new-- I don't know, unless Amy just deals

01:28:29   with all this stuff.

01:28:30   But it's got to be that multiplied by 1,000, right?

01:28:34   Yeah, I love our fridge.

01:28:36   We have a really nice fridge, and I love it to death.

01:28:38   It's one of my favorite things I've ever owned,

01:28:40   and it's always got ice.

01:28:42   and it doesn't have a stupid thing. You stick a cup in and it shoots ice. You just open the

01:28:47   freezer drawer and then there's a big bucket of ice and it's always filled up and we're never out

01:28:53   of ice, which was in our old house where we rented and had like a typical renter's fridge. You know,

01:28:59   kept stuff cold, kept stuff frozen, but you know, didn't really have any features.

01:29:03   **Matt Stauffer** Do you do any of the fancy ice stuff for your fancy drinks?

01:29:08   No, I've got these—I'm not a believer in that. I think it's sort of a waste of

01:29:16   time even though—like the clear ice?

01:29:19   Mm-hmm. Yeah. Or weird shapes like balls or large cubes.

01:29:24   I have the balls, but what I have that's easier and it's the only thing I really

01:29:28   use are the large cubes, and they're in a—is it silicon or silicone?

01:29:33   Silicone.

01:29:34   I think it's a brand called Tuvalo.

01:29:38   The Tuvalo King Size Ice.

01:29:40   Let's see if that's right.

01:29:42   And it's super easy.

01:29:43   You just fill it up and it makes six sort of fist-size cubes of ice.

01:29:48   AG: Here's the question.

01:29:51   If you had a magic, cost-free, super-efficient butler who could give you perfectly clear

01:29:57   ice whenever you wanted it instantly, would you use that in your drinks?

01:30:02   No, I honestly don't care about clear ice. I really don't and I care about so many things and I

01:30:08   Like if I am making a cocktail I would like I like to have a really nice

01:30:14   Like if there's like a lemon slice or you know appeal I like to make that nice and neat

01:30:20   I like to pick my own lemons and oranges and I picked them specifically as to whether the Rhine has any any

01:30:27   Gross double edges. No blemishes. No blue ink

01:30:31   But I I don't get it. I you know, I have all sorts of weird quirks. I have been picky about my pens

01:30:37   I'm picky about all sorts of things. So I'm not putting anybody down who is picky about clear ice and

01:30:41   our friends at studio neat who make all sorts of fun stuff like the space pen and notebooks and the

01:30:50   Glyph which is a great product. That's a little

01:30:53   Tripod mount for any phone so you can snap it on your phone and put it on a tripod

01:30:59   They make all sorts of cool stuff including a clear ice kit, and I just could not care about their clear ice kit

01:31:05   Well again the kit means you have to make yourself

01:31:08   I was just like if you if you could get it instantly

01:31:09   But you don't care about it like I don't care about drinks, and I don't really drink at all

01:31:13   But I do think clear ice is really cool, and I mean I first of all I think it looks cool

01:31:17   But the second thing is if you're talking about different sizes and shapes you have a drink

01:31:22   Like in the summer where the ice starts to get small and you drink and some of the ice cubes come into your mouth, right?

01:31:29   Mm-hmm

01:31:30   When an ice cube has all the air pockets the sort of texture and also kind of taste of an ice cube with a bunch

01:31:36   Of those air pockets on your tongue is very different from an ice cube that does not have

01:31:41   All those air pockets in it

01:31:43   Like I feel like it actually changes how the drink tastes even if it's just ice water

01:31:47   You know the taste I'm talking about the aerated ice cube taste and I I find the clear ice

01:31:53   More luxurious that said I do not make clear ice and I have never made it in my entire life

01:31:58   Never would because it's way too much of a hassle for me to deal with and I don't even put ice in my drinks most

01:32:03   Of the time so it's not a thing that is a factor in my life, but I do I do find it appealing

01:32:07   So if I had that instant Butler, I would accept clear ice almost all the time

01:32:12   Yeah, well, I guess if I had the Butler, I mean who am I kidding?

01:32:16   What is your preference like, you know it would you rather have a clear ice cube or a non clear?

01:32:23   The clear ones look cooler and I feel like they taste better.

01:32:25   Dave Asprey Yeah, I guess if I didn't have to do any

01:32:28   work, I wouldn't have to. Even my pal Lee, the guy who runs Hopsing Laundry, my beloved

01:32:32   cocktail bar here in Philly where he fusses over everything. He does not fuss over clear

01:32:37   ice. He has very good ice and he's very particular that this drink gets a cube and

01:32:42   this drink gets a sphere and whatever, but he doesn't bother with the clear ice.

01:32:46   Adam Back (01:

01:32:47   It's still a thing. I don't see anything in the silicone thing that helps with the clearing.

01:32:52   No, this doesn't clear. This is just a way to make big ice cubes.

01:32:56   Yeah. If you're doing it commercially, unless I guess you could increase your price by a lot if

01:33:00   you go through the hassle, but it is quite a hassle to do.

01:33:03   Yeah. And it's like some of these ones, it's like they make a big thing and then it's like

01:33:07   the non-clear part settles to the bottom and you got to sit there and cut it in half and all this

01:33:12   stuff. And I've seen things on YouTube where there's like restaurants that have like $40,000

01:33:16   ice cube makers just to get clear ice. How did we get off on the ice? Oh, the refrigerator talk.

01:33:22   I'll tell you what though, as much as I like the fridge, we have a—I forget the name of the brand,

01:33:29   but we have a supposedly a—Osco, I forget what it is, a dishwasher.

01:33:33   **Matt Stauffer** Bosch?

01:33:34   **Ezra Kleinman** Ah, no, it's something else, but I don't want to besmirch them too bad,

01:33:39   but it's apparently a very nice dishwasher. It does get the dishes clean, I will say.

01:33:43   It will to get the dishes clean but man. Oh man is the interface terrible and it's got even though it's it's brand new and it's nice

01:33:50   It has those

01:33:51   Has those type of buttons that kind of click?

01:33:55   And I guess they're waterproof. You know what I mean that there's like a membrane sort of like microwave buttons often are

01:34:01   But the but your touches just don't register sometimes and you'll hit like you just press harder

01:34:07   Yeah, and you hit start and it makes I don't know what the symbol means it hits start and it makes it puts three little

01:34:14   horizontal lines up on this ground and that means go and you close the door and then nothing happens and

01:34:20   Then you open it up and you hit the same button and you get the same three lines and you close the door and it

01:34:25   kicks in

01:34:26   Yeah, this is I feel like is a gap and still still in this modern age

01:34:30   like we're all so excited when you know back in our youth when Consumer Reports came as like finally someone is going to

01:34:36   do reviews of things that people previously didn't review like a

01:34:40   Clear I'd look at dishwashers and reliability in cars and in the modern era we have things like well

01:34:45   There's just you know online reviews was a big revolution than things like the wire cutter

01:34:48   We're like I don't have time to read a bunch of rears. Just tell me which one I should buy

01:34:51   None of these I feel like address

01:34:53   This major concern that is such a factor in all of our lives, which is is this the best whatever for you?

01:35:00   Oh, here's how much it costs. Here's the features it has if the interface drives you insane. That is a huge factor

01:35:06   I don't care how reliable it is.

01:35:08   I don't care how much it costs.

01:35:09   I don't care how clear it gets.

01:35:10   It's just every day I have to use this interface.

01:35:12   If the buttons are annoying to press, let alone if the buttons are inscrutable.

01:35:15   And I feel like there's, you know, I'm mostly playing with the wire cut here.

01:35:18   There's way too little emphasis in Consumer Reports, in any kind of product reviews, in

01:35:24   the wire cutter of the user interface of physical products that can make or break.

01:35:30   Like I understand you do want to know how does it perform and you do want to know about

01:35:33   reliability and you do want to know about features, but in the end, even if you have

01:35:37   all of those, if the thing that you're describing is the case, you will not love this appliance.

01:35:43   This appliance will slowly drive you mad.

01:35:45   Darrell Bock Yeah, totally. It's dishwasher driving me

01:35:48   mad. The other thing that stinks, and I get it, I want to be a good citizen. Maybe it's

01:35:52   even legal now, I don't know, but it takes forever to clean the dishes. It does get them

01:35:56   very clean, but I guess as a water-saving measure, it's squirting like one tiny hot

01:36:03   thing at a time. I don't know why. Mine also takes a long time. And I do wonder. I assumed

01:36:08   it took forever because it's doing an extremely thorough job because I feel like it is doing

01:36:12   an extremely thorough job. But I don't know what's going on inside there. I don't know what's taking

01:36:17   so long. I was talking to Marco about it. Marco's convinced it's a water-saving measure. Maybe.

01:36:23   But it's funny because it just shows the difference. People in all sorts of industries,

01:36:32   People designing engineers who are designing dishwashers are thinking about water converse

01:36:36   at conservation now. Whereas like you just know that like when dishwashers first became

01:36:41   a thing like I don't know late 50s early 60s the engineers at General Electric all they

01:36:47   were thinking was how do we close down these dishes as fast as we can because that's a

01:36:52   selling feature.

01:36:53   That's the error when they say if we can get these dishes clean by spraying with the radiation

01:36:57   we'll do it. You don't care about you, your healthy environment. We just want to get dishes

01:37:02   clean. And then we're going to advertise the hell out of the fact that ours is faster than

01:37:05   the other guys. Yeah, our radiation really removes every trace of dirt. Totally, totally

01:37:11   sanitizes them. No life remains on these dishes when we're done with them. I had a link in

01:37:16   here. It looks like David Pogue is back at the New York Times. I don't know if that's

01:37:20   a one off thing. I haven't looked at it yet for a while. Story fly through, but I didn't

01:37:25   follow the link and didn't note that it was the New York Times. It's a story on Easter

01:37:29   eggs and just totally rip off James Thompson's presentation. Do you know what? I don't know

01:37:35   because I have James Thompson of, of a peak calc fame and drag thing fame. For those of

01:37:43   us who are a little bit older, you still use drag thing. I'm running it right now. I'm

01:37:47   looking at it right now, even though it's not retina, but you don't have a retina. This

01:37:50   is my run. It is play zone. No problem. So James Thompson was at a conference recently

01:37:55   and did like a 28 minute talk on the history of Easter eggs. I've got it saved up. I have seen

01:37:59   rave reviews of people saying that this is they knocked it out of the park knowing James. I'm

01:38:06   sure that he did. For those of you who don't know, peacocks, peacocks, Easter eggs are some of the

01:38:15   most. Well, see, I feel like those are not Easter eggs. I know that's what it's on. I feel the

01:38:21   The definition of Easter egg has expanded to ridiculous.

01:38:24   It's kind of like lunatic fringe.

01:38:26   Lunatic fringe was not an Easter egg in After Dark.

01:38:29   Right.

01:38:30   Lunatic fringe was a feature of After Dark.

01:38:31   It wasn't a hidden cool thing that you could discover.

01:38:35   It was totally there.

01:38:37   It was just a feature.

01:38:38   And in the same way, PCALC, which is essentially

01:38:40   a calculator, has a, quote unquote,

01:38:43   "Easter egg" where there's an entire crazy 3D game

01:38:46   environment in the same application.

01:38:48   And AR.

01:38:50   Yeah, and AR.

01:38:51   Like, yeah.

01:38:51   But it is not a cute, hidden little feature somewhere

01:38:55   that you would notice or could trigger.

01:38:56   Even when you have things like the breakout game in System 7

01:38:59   or whatever, that counts as an Easter egg

01:39:01   because it was hidden, like an Easter egg is hidden.

01:39:03   And I guess the about stuff, the PCAL stuff,

01:39:06   is kind of hidden in the about screen.

01:39:08   But at a certain point, I would love

01:39:10   to know a number of lines of code.

01:39:14   How much of PCAL is the quote unquote Easter egg,

01:39:16   and how much is the calculator at this point?

01:39:19   How much is the math engine?

01:39:20   or as James would call it, probably the maths engine.

01:39:23   With the code carried over from whatever,

01:39:25   he wrote it in Pascal like 20 something years ago.

01:39:28   I'm just curious if you have any fond memories of Easter eggs

01:39:31   from back in the day.

01:39:32   What was the-- the Finder one, was it the--

01:39:34   it was the Finder, and if you held down the Option key

01:39:36   and went to about this Mac--

01:39:38   No, about the Finder is--

01:39:40   About the Finder.

01:39:40   Yeah, with the little mountain range.

01:39:43   I did that-- here's the thing that I'm thinking

01:39:45   about Easter eggs the other day.

01:39:46   I watched James' thing as well.

01:39:49   That little thing where you hold down the option key when you select the "About" and it changes to

01:39:53   the "About the Finder" and you see the little "Sierra Nevada Mountains" in sort of this

01:39:57   abstract black and white artwork. I must have activated that Easter egg hundreds of times

01:40:06   in my life on my Mac. Why? Like, once I did it once, then I knew that it was there.

01:40:16   the discovery had been made. It's not like there was any interactive elements or anything. If there

01:40:22   was scrolling credits, you can watch them scroll, but once you've done that, that's it. And I wasn't

01:40:26   showing people. It's not like other people were there with me. "Hey, let me show you this cool

01:40:29   Easter egg that you might not know about on your Mac." Just me, by myself, I would activate that

01:40:34   Easter egg. And I think the reason I was doing it was like, you know, the thing that Apple says about

01:40:40   all their current products, but is actually true of Easter eggs. Surprise and delight. I just needed

01:40:45   I just like the idea that it was there, and I would just activate it and get a little

01:40:51   smile and have a little tiny microdose of joy.

01:40:55   So yeah, there's that thing that somebody did because they thought it would be fun.

01:40:59   And there's that graphic.

01:41:00   So my favorite, or one of my favorites, was QuarkXPress had one.

01:41:06   And I might misremember—it's been a long time since I've used QuarkXPress—but for

01:41:10   a number of years, I used QuarkXPress more than I used any other app.

01:41:14   I used it more than BB Edit even.

01:41:16   And I got really, really good at it.

01:41:18   And there was a keyboard shortcut

01:41:20   to delete the current element.

01:41:24   And it wasn't just the Delete key.

01:41:26   It was Command-Option-K or something like that.

01:41:29   And the idea was, I think, that you

01:41:33   could be in text editing mode, where the Delete key would

01:41:36   delete the last character.

01:41:38   But what you really want to do is you

01:41:39   want to delete the whole text box

01:41:41   that you've placed on the pasteboard.

01:41:43   you do Command-Option-K or something like that. But if you held down an extra key—I

01:41:48   forget if it was Control. I think it was Control. So you do Control-Command-Option-K, a little

01:41:54   alien came out from the side, marched over, and then shot the element you were deleting

01:41:59   with a ray gun. It would take like 20 seconds for this. I used it all the time. Late at

01:42:07   night at the student newspaper, you start going stir-crazy, I would make the little

01:42:12   Quark Express alien come out and spend 20 seconds deleting a thing that I could have

01:42:16   deleted completely instantaneously. But I thought that was amusing.

01:42:20   Tim Cynova One of the beautiful things of the modern

01:42:22   internet is that you can find a video of that happening, I believe, on YouTube or some other

01:42:26   source because I remember Googling it at some time in the past and seeing the little animation.

01:42:29   I never used Quark Express in real life, but yeah, it's totally one of those little Easter

01:42:34   eggs that, you know, was just there to be fun. And why were you activating it? Because

01:42:39   You were looking for a tiny microdose of surprise and delight?

01:42:43   Yeah.

01:42:44   I wouldn't be surprised if James mentioned it, but MailSmith had an Easter egg where

01:42:51   on April 1st, it would add a preference to the notification set.

01:42:55   MailSmith is the email client made by Barebone Software based on the text engine of BB Edit.

01:43:02   And on April 1st, it would add a preference, and I think it was on by default, to deliver

01:43:06   a 10 kilovolt electric shock with each new email.

01:43:09   And all it did was play a little buzz sound, which was funny.

01:43:14   I'm not really much for April 1st gags, but it was all right.

01:43:17   But I do recall that while I was there, we did get some support mail from people who

01:43:23   did not realize it was a joke.

01:43:25   I remember being impressed.

01:43:32   One of the other Easter eggs I was impressed by that invoked a new era of Easter eggs was

01:43:35   was the first 3D Easter egg that I experienced,

01:43:39   which was the iguana flag on the Power Macs.

01:43:42   - I don't remember this.

01:43:43   - It was a nice combination,

01:43:44   I think it's in James' talk,

01:43:45   it was a nice combination of,

01:43:47   so the Power Mac, the whole big thing with the Power Mac

01:43:49   was the Power PC, the Macintosh,

01:43:50   and the whole message and sort of,

01:43:54   you know, significance in the community

01:43:56   was that these are much faster than your old Macs.

01:43:59   They are more powerful.

01:44:00   They can do all sorts of neat things

01:44:02   that your old Mac could never do.

01:44:04   - Oh, right, right.

01:44:04   the graphing calculator. >> Yeah. And the Easter eggs followed along

01:44:09   with that. I think this was in firmware or something. Maybe there was some kind of key

01:44:14   combination. I forget how to activate it. But basically it would take over your entire

01:44:18   screen with a comically grainy by today's standard background image of one infinite

01:44:24   loop with the flags that are in front of the building. It was kind of zoomed in more. And

01:44:29   was a flagpole, and hanging from the flagpole was a flag. I think it had a flag with somebody's

01:44:36   pedaguan on it or something. And it was rendered in Quickdraw 3D, which you can recall was

01:44:40   Apple's attempted 3D API back in the day. Or maybe it was like Quickdraw 3D Rave, or

01:44:47   I don't remember the particular standard. But anyway, it was a 3D flag, again, comically

01:44:50   green with a comically small number of polygons on it. And it would flap in the breeze. And

01:44:56   This alone, it doesn't make any sense that this would be impressive, but this alone was

01:44:59   impressive that you'd have a big color graphic which looked "photorealistic" in the background

01:45:05   because it was just a photo, and then a 3D flag flapping in the breeze, which was a really

01:45:10   hard thing to do.

01:45:11   And it was demonstrating, as it flapped at like 12 frames per second or whatever, it

01:45:15   was demonstrating the amazing power of these new computers because you couldn't hope to

01:45:19   render this at all at like one frame every seven seconds on like an old Mac or worse,

01:45:24   right?

01:45:25   Right.

01:45:26   I don't think there was a cursor on the screen, but if you move the mouse around

01:45:29   You could influence the direction of the wind on the flag so you didn't actually see a cursor

01:45:34   But you'd notice that it was interacted that you change the direction of the wind

01:45:37   And by changing the direction of the wind

01:45:40   You know sort of making go all the way to the right and all the way to the left all the way to the right like

01:45:44   Back and forth whipping making the flag whip back and forth you could eventually tear the flag off of the pole

01:45:49   and it would like flutter down and

01:45:51   This was an amazing easter egg because it was like hidden inside your computer

01:45:55   It was 3D graphics, and it was interactive, and it was weird,

01:45:58   and had an iguana on it.

01:45:59   And it was super Apple-focused, and it demonstrated

01:46:02   the power of your Power Mac.

01:46:03   That's another one that stands out in my memory.

01:46:05   It's a little weird that Apple doesn't do stuff like that

01:46:07   anymore.

01:46:08   I mean, you get the feeling that Steve Jobs wasn't really

01:46:11   a fan of that sort of thing.

01:46:12   Which is weird, because if you think about Steve Jobs making

01:46:15   like blue boxes with Woz, he was--

01:46:16   and the pirate flag and everything like that,

01:46:18   that was totally up his alley.

01:46:21   But at a certain point, he turned the car on.

01:46:23   Yeah, he outgrew it.

01:46:24   Yeah, he outgrew it.

01:46:24   Or either outgrew it or decided that if it's not him doing it, don't do it because now

01:46:28   you're messing up his thing.

01:46:29   It's great when he's messing up AT&T's phone system.

01:46:31   It's not so great when you're messing up his thing.

01:46:33   Dave Asprey Yeah.

01:46:34   Because the other thing I wouldn't—I don't know if—sometimes you'd call them Easter

01:46:37   eggs just because they were clever.

01:46:40   But just an about box that did something interesting.

01:46:43   You'd go to about this Mac or about this app and it would—people—it was a place

01:46:50   for clever developers to blow off Steam.

01:46:54   I mean, James obviously still has it, but--

01:46:57   BBS still got it, too.

01:46:59   Yeah, yeah.

01:47:01   But that was thrown by the wayside.

01:47:03   It was the one window the developer

01:47:05   felt like was for them.

01:47:07   It was a place where you could go--

01:47:08   the only reason the user would go there

01:47:10   is to maybe get a version number.

01:47:11   So that's the only information you have to convey.

01:47:12   But every other part of that window

01:47:14   is it's like the place for the developer to take a bow.

01:47:17   And depending on how deeply you want to bow,

01:47:19   if you want to put in your breakout game or a 3D driving

01:47:22   game with an AR component, that's the place to do it.

01:47:28   But it's interesting that Apple sort of went away from that. I can't remember the

01:47:32   last time anybody found an Easter egg in Apple software, but Google still does it famously

01:47:38   all the time. They had Mario driving around Google Maps on Mario Day. Did you know this?

01:47:44   Mario Day is March 10th because it looks like Mario.

01:47:47   That's terrible.

01:47:48   Mar 10th.

01:47:49   the fourth. All these sort of pun-based holidays are not great.

01:47:54   May the fourth at least—I cringe at it. I think it's a little corny. But at least

01:48:00   you would say, like, when it is May fourth, you would say May the fourth. And it does

01:48:04   sound like May the fourth be with you. It works at a certain level where Mar Ten equals

01:48:11   Mario.

01:48:12   Yeah, it's more of a stretch.

01:48:14   Kind of a stretch. I'm trying to think who else does Easter eggs.

01:48:17   probably still Apple ones hidden in there. Like people can sneak stuff in, but it's,

01:48:21   uh, the thing is there's so much more software now that, uh, you know, so many more applications.

01:48:26   The number of applications in the app store dwarfs the number of applications ever made

01:48:30   for classic Mac OS by probably orders of magnitude. So if there are awesome Easter eggs out there,

01:48:35   maybe we just don't even know about them. I feel like at various points in the early

01:48:39   life of the Mac, I was at least aware of, if not had a copy of every application available

01:48:44   things for the computer, right? Certainly all the popular ones, right? So you could,

01:48:48   you could, it's like being in a small town where you know everybody, right? And then you know,

01:48:52   like these three have Easter eggs and everybody eventually knows about the Easter eggs and we

01:48:56   share it. And with like with millions of apps in the app store, that doesn't happen anymore.

01:48:59   There's not, there's not that sort of, it's like television, you know, when we're all watching the

01:49:04   same three networks in the same five shows, it's a lot easier to have a shared understanding of the

01:49:09   the current state of play.

01:49:11   You added this.

01:49:12   Here's a story you added to the show notes about Apple locking batteries

01:49:17   to iPhones.

01:49:18   Michael Tsai has it on his website.

01:49:20   I'll link to that in the show notes.

01:49:24   This has been growing for a while.

01:49:25   And I think that the gist of it now is that it's not

01:49:29   that you can't use a non-authorized battery replacement,

01:49:34   but if you put a non-authorized battery replacement into an iPhone

01:49:39   and presumably maybe iPads too, or if not, it might be coming. You get a permanent warning

01:49:45   in settings that tells you that the battery needs to be serviced, which would annoy the

01:49:51   hell out of me to have something like that that I can't make go away.

01:49:54   **Matt Stauffer:** Especially if it's badge settings. I don't

01:49:55   think it does badge settings, but imagine if it did.

01:49:57   **Beserat Debebe:** Oh, that would drive me nuts.

01:50:00   **Matt Stauffer** Yeah. So this is the type of thing where now

01:50:02   it's a bunch of people experimenting. So it's not a rumor. It's a real thing that's happening,

01:50:07   it's unclear what the actual situation is. The situation could be that the logic in Apple's

01:50:14   operating system that tries to validate the battery with the little chip that's in there,

01:50:19   you know, triggers this battery needs service thing, but really it's erroneous because what

01:50:24   it should just be detecting is that it's not the battery needs service, it's just that

01:50:28   it's not matched up with the hardware and that should be expressed in a different way.

01:50:32   Or it could be that this is totally intended behavior and Apple's trying to stop people

01:50:35   from putting in other batteries. But the effect of it may end up being the same. And this

01:50:40   is this ongoing battle of like—

01:50:42   Jay Haynes And it's—you get it even if it is an authorized

01:50:45   part. It's just that if the service is performed by someone other than an authorized Apple

01:50:51   itself or an authorized Apple repair technician, there's some kind of magic incantation that

01:50:57   once you put the replacement part in, you do some sort of diagnostic thing that says,

01:51:02   "Okay, now it's authorized."

01:51:04   it's authorized. Yeah, but involving some sort of private key

01:51:06   that only Apple has or something like that. Like the thing that this is part of the larger

01:51:11   right to repair issue of like, should Apple, should it be legal for Apple to stop people

01:51:16   from start third parties for repairing them? And it reminds me a lot of the printer ink

01:51:19   DRM debacle of years past where printer manufacturers make all their money off this ink and so they

01:51:26   wanted to make it so that you couldn't use third party ink cartridges. So they put some

01:51:29   sort of DRM in the ink cartridges and then tried to sue the makers.

01:51:33   nothing about making your print output look better or come out faster or have higher fidelity.

01:51:40   It was simply there for pure marketing spite.

01:51:46   Adam: Yeah. But see, the thing is their story was similar to the Apple. They would say,

01:51:50   "Well, we just want people to make sure people have guaranteed compatible highest quality

01:51:56   ink that we can control." Who knows what you're getting from those third-party things

01:52:00   it might not work right or it might work right with this version, but then we open our software

01:52:04   and that ink doesn't work because they didn't realize they had to design it in this way

01:52:07   to account for some change in our printer.

01:52:09   So really it's the safest if you use our first.

01:52:12   It's exactly the same story with the Apple batteries.

01:52:15   Like, oh, well, third parties, we want it to be installed by an authorized dealer.

01:52:19   We want it to be a genuine part and that's why we put this code in there and blah, blah,

01:52:23   blah.

01:52:24   And you can, again, within the company, I can imagine people convincing themselves that

01:52:28   that what they're doing is in the best interest of the customer.

01:52:31   But back in reality, it is not in the best interest of the customer.

01:52:36   I feel like it was clearly established that it is better for people to be able to get

01:52:40   cheaper printer ink.

01:52:41   It's bad for a single company to have a monopoly on this because they raised the price and

01:52:45   because there's no competition, right?

01:52:47   And so it's bad if no one but Apple can successfully put an Apple battery back into an Apple phone.

01:52:54   And there's always going to be cases where like, oh, some third party badly installed

01:52:58   a battery and it blew up and it's playing on fire and killed everyone on board.

01:53:02   But that's just, that's part of what Apple has to deal with as a company in the world.

01:53:06   And I honestly, it wouldn't be that big a deal because what Apple would say is, yeah,

01:53:10   that's because the third party did it and they did a bad job, right?

01:53:13   It would be actually good for Apple to be able to explain that.

01:53:16   It would help people keep people away from it.

01:53:18   But the reality is that doesn't happen.

01:53:19   People just get cheaper batteries from third parties and everyone is better for it except

01:53:24   for apparently Apple who just can't stand the idea of that happening.

01:53:27   Yeah, and the other one, and I don't think that there's an issue with it at the moment,

01:53:30   but I know that in that third party repair scene for phones, the big one is repairing

01:53:36   cracked displays because their displays are made of glass and people sometimes unfortunately

01:53:44   drop their phone and then the glass shatters and people have different—there's different

01:53:49   amounts of shattering and people have different standards for what they'll put up with once

01:53:53   they've done it. I would probably go the authorized route. I've done it, in fact,

01:54:01   I think twice that I've dropped an iPhone. But I totally respect that some people, if

01:54:08   they could do it for half price and it still looks like a nice display, it's I guess

01:54:12   an Apple part. I mean, you can't really have a third-party display. They would like

01:54:16   to save money on it. I get it. I'm probably more on Apple's side on the right to repair

01:54:25   stuff than a lot of people, a lot of nerds. A lot of nerds are really upset about all

01:54:30   of this stuff. I get it. Your phone, you should be able to do whatever you want with it. But

01:54:36   I know the iFixit guys are really down on all the glue that Apple uses to put things

01:54:41   together.

01:54:42   I feel like that's a separate issue.

01:54:44   The issue of how repairable they are,

01:54:47   you can be militant about that,

01:54:49   or you can not be militant about it.

01:54:50   But it's the idea that if I'm physically able

01:54:54   to do a repair or replacement,

01:54:56   like if I'm able to do that with the tools

01:54:57   and skills that I have,

01:54:59   but then some kind of essentially DRM lockout

01:55:02   prevents the device from working,

01:55:05   from appearing to work correctly in the future

01:55:07   for no actual good reason other than just like,

01:55:10   Apple doesn't want this to happen.

01:55:12   That's bad.

01:55:13   We can't rely on Apple's benevolence to have reasonable repair prices and wait times.

01:55:16   We want there to be pressure.

01:55:18   For years and years before the iPhone, there were authorized Apple dealers.

01:55:24   Before there were Apple stores.

01:55:25   That's where you went to get Apple stuff done.

01:55:27   That is a well-established system for Apple having some modicum of control because to

01:55:31   be an authorized Apple dealer, the word authorized means Apple authorized you to do it.

01:55:35   I would go beyond that and say, "It should be perfectly possible to have completely unauthorized

01:55:40   repair centers for these things, right? As long as, you know, the backstops against all the safety

01:55:47   and the danger things should be legal backstops that exist for consumer perception, independent

01:55:51   of any individual company. Like in other words, liability for doing a bad phone repair and it

01:55:55   blows up a battery. We're like, that's the legal system and our laws should protect us against

01:55:59   that. It's not like we're saying a laissez faire if your battery blows up, tough luck. Like,

01:56:04   you know, that's, that's why we have laws. But beyond that, Apple shouldn't have any say. And

01:56:10   whether you're allowed to get your phone repaired, they can void your warranty, because again,

01:56:13   that's an Apple thing. That's always been the deal. Fine. You get it repaired someplace else.

01:56:16   It's not an authorized Apple dealer, you void your warranty, like, these are the trade offs

01:56:20   that need to be made. And it's not, you know, the slippery slope, like if you allow this,

01:56:23   it will be madness. We lived in this world for years where there was authorized Apple dealers,

01:56:27   no Apple stores, and also unauthorized Apple dealers, and nobody, you know, the world did

01:56:32   did not end. It is a perfectly viable system.

01:56:35   Dave Asprey You could take these things apart, put them

01:56:37   back together, and they just worked. It reminds me of a longstanding observation. You still

01:56:43   have a TiVo?

01:56:44   Tim Cynova I have multiple TiVos.

01:56:46   Dave Asprey So we're still a TiVo family, and that's

01:56:50   why I think you and I have talked about this on the show before. It's very hard to convey

01:56:55   to somebody who doesn't own a TiVo how much better TiVo fast-forwarding and skipping around

01:57:02   is and how you never ever have to wait for anything. It's always super fast. They've

01:57:07   even added better features where certain shows now get indexed where you can just hit that

01:57:12   – do you have the green button?

01:57:13   Yeah.

01:57:14   D. And it skips – it perfectly skips the commercials. But we first computerized television

01:57:22   or video watching, if you will, to make it better and to do amazing things like time

01:57:27   shifting without having to manage a bunch of VHS tapes and a much easier—I mean, people

01:57:37   forget it. Again, we're going to lose the younger crowd. But the blinking 12 on the

01:57:41   VCR was a real thing. That was a real thing where VCRs were so bad to use, had such a

01:57:49   terrible user interface that people didn't even bother to set the clock. And if you don't

01:57:53   of the clock set, you can't program anything in advance. You can't say, "Well, I'm going

01:57:58   on vacation and I want to tape my favorite show on Tuesday night." Well, if the clock

01:58:02   isn't set, good luck. People didn't use it. TiVo revolutionized this. It made it—you

01:58:08   had this nice little TV guide right on the screen and you'd say, "That's the show I

01:58:11   want," and then you'd get it. And it was great. We used computers to make watching

01:58:17   TV better. And now we use computers to make watching TV worse with unskippable Hulu ads

01:58:24   and like we went from using computers to be able to skip ads if you want to, to using

01:58:30   computers to make it so that you cannot skip the ads.

01:58:33   Yeah, well, in some respects, we also may use computers to make TV better still, as

01:58:38   in let's forego the entire concept of a continuous stream of shows that air at fixed

01:58:43   times and then having a device deal with them, streaming services, the shows just exist and

01:58:47   watch them when you want, so that's an improvement. But now that they have control over the venue

01:58:52   again, they're using that control to extract money in various ways. Although I have to

01:58:57   say that for the most part, first of all, my TiVo usage has been decreasing as more

01:59:03   and more shows are on streaming services. And second, I prefer the experience of using

01:59:10   a completely commercial-free streaming service that I pay for and can stream and download

01:59:15   any time that I want, then the experience of TiVo in all ways except for the control

01:59:21   factor because if I have to use it on tvOS I'm using the terrible Apple remote and if

01:59:28   I'm using it on an iOS device I find the playback interfaces, the sort of interface that, you

01:59:34   know, on the screen that you use to play the show, in all of my applications to be terrible

01:59:39   I want to sit down every single one of these developers and say let me explain to you the

01:59:42   things that people do when they're watching shows on their iPad and how terrible your

01:59:47   interface is at doing those things.

01:59:50   Like the ones that don't have like a go back 15 seconds or the –

01:59:53   Yeah.

01:59:54   That's just like the tip of the iceberg, right?

01:59:56   I could start getting into –

01:59:57   How do you not have those buttons?

01:59:58   I could start getting into obscure stuff like the idea that if when I pause your video to

02:00:03   like read the letter that someone is writing, if you dim the screen so much that I can't

02:00:08   see the stuff anymore, why do you think I'm pausing it?

02:00:10   Yes, I could be pausing it to go to the bathroom, but I could also be pausing it to pick something

02:00:14   out of a frame.

02:00:15   You have to give me a way to remove your HUD with a second tap, which many applications

02:00:19   do, but many applications do not.

02:00:20   You know another thing people do all the time?

02:00:22   They turn on the captions to tell what somebody said.

02:00:25   This one barrier that Apple got right, the "What did he say?"

02:00:28   Siri thing, which makes you feel silly, but at least the feature exists.

02:00:32   Go back a little bit and turn on captions.

02:00:33   If captions are four levels deep in a menu, that's not a good experience.

02:00:39   many things. And remembering playback position, I cannot express to you how important it is for

02:00:43   you to remember my playback position because if you do not, it's infuriating. You just got to get

02:00:48   these basics right. And because there are so many applications, they all have an opportunity

02:00:52   to screw up that interface in their own unique ways. Right. Imagine a book that you couldn't

02:00:57   bookmark. Or it would try to, but then it would forget. Right. And just drop you 70 pages prior

02:01:03   or something like that. Or keep insisting after you finish the book that you are in the middle

02:01:07   of chapter one. And every time you go back to the library, the book flies out of the

02:01:11   shelf and hits you in the forehead and says, "Hey, you want to continue reading chapter

02:01:14   one?" You're like, "I finished that book. How can I convince you that I finished reading

02:01:17   that book? Stop telling me to resume in the middle of chapter one. Do I have to read it

02:01:21   again to convince you, library, that I finished the book?" I've had that experience with

02:01:25   streaming services that keep insisting that I resume watching a series that I had completely

02:01:30   finished watching because some of their metadata about what I've seen and what I haven't

02:01:35   is messed up and I have no way to fix it.

02:01:36   Do you see this thing that came out today where Apple released a series of ASMR videos

02:01:42   to YouTube?

02:01:43   I did.

02:01:44   At first, I thought that was like a third party, like someone just took a bunch of Apple

02:01:47   videos and did some ASMR stuff.

02:01:49   But then eventually, after the 75th time I saw the link, I actually followed it and saw

02:01:53   that it was literally an official Apple video.

02:01:56   And I was a little bit surprised by that.

02:01:57   But you know, it's YouTube and they're trying different things.

02:02:01   What does ASMR stand for?

02:02:03   I'm Googling it right now.

02:02:04   I used to know this something sensory something response.

02:02:09   - Yeah, something like that.

02:02:12   Autonomous sensory meridian response.

02:02:15   - I got two out of the four, partial credit.

02:02:18   - Basically it's satisfying noises,

02:02:23   like people crunch paper.

02:02:27   It's just a huge on, I guess everything's huge on YouTube.

02:02:30   There's a niche for everything.

02:02:31   - But this is actually a pretty big thing.

02:02:34   And it's a little bit woo woo with the whole like,

02:02:36   who gets what experience from watching these videos?

02:02:41   But I feel like anybody,

02:02:42   especially if you've never seen it before,

02:02:43   will get some reaction from the experience.

02:02:47   Perhaps a reaction that might surprise you,

02:02:49   because if you're like,

02:02:50   it's just a video of people whispering and crumpling paper,

02:02:52   I'm not gonna find that.

02:02:53   It might be interesting.

02:02:55   You may find it incredibly interesting and satisfying,

02:02:58   or you may find it mildly more interesting

02:03:00   than you thought you would.

02:03:01   but I doubt anyone will look at an ASMR video for the very first time and say, "I find

02:03:06   this exactly as boring as I thought I would."

02:03:07   Dave Asprey Right. I don't know how they're recording

02:03:10   the sounds because it's—and the Apple angle is that these are shot on iPhone. They are

02:03:15   gorgeous videos. Again, I found it—I'm not really into the sound that much, but it

02:03:20   was interesting. The one where the woman was whispering was definitely—you really want

02:03:25   headphones for that one. Every one of them opens with best heard on—with headphones

02:03:30   on. But I just like it because it ups my—it makes me up my game or at least raise my goals

02:03:40   for what I can shoot with my phone because I'm like, "Damn, this looks like a real

02:03:45   movie." My iPhone movies still look like home videos, you know. I feel like—

02:03:50   You've got to get yourself a gimbal or a tripod.

02:03:52   Yeah.

02:03:53   Yeah.

02:03:54   That seems like a lot of work.

02:03:56   Yeah.

02:03:57   That's fine.

02:03:58   Anything else you wanted to talk about?

02:04:00   I had a whole bunch of stuff on the future of Mac OS, but we don't have time to get

02:04:06   into that now.

02:04:07   No, no, no.

02:04:08   We don't have time on that.

02:04:09   I know that you're very excited.

02:04:11   The Mac Pro is coming.

02:04:15   What is—and I feel like this is to me—I talk to every guest about it every week is

02:04:19   is what is your take on this 16-inch MacBook Pro?

02:04:24   Is it a replacement for the 15 or not?

02:04:28   - I think it is at this point.

02:04:29   I mean, even if the 15 hangs around,

02:04:31   I think essentially this is the successor to that.

02:04:34   And eventually, in the same way that models eventually

02:04:38   fall off the end of Tim Cook's Apple,

02:04:40   the 15-inch will be in the dustbin

02:04:43   and the 16-inch will be the new 15-inch.

02:04:44   That is my current expectation.

02:04:48   Did you guys talk about those weird rumors about people spotting the 16-inch—I didn't

02:04:53   listen last time to ATP.

02:04:54   I don't know.

02:04:55   We did.

02:04:56   We had that in the notes, and we discussed it amongst ourselves.

02:04:57   I never actually made it into a show.

02:05:00   The joke I made about it, which my two co-hosts didn't get because they don't remember

02:05:03   this is that—so what we're talking about is someone posted a photo of a supposed prototype

02:05:10   of the 16-inch MacBook in a public place, like a public café or a Starbucks or something.

02:05:17   even like Cafe Mac's on campus, like at like a Cupertino area like lunch spot. And it just

02:05:24   seems so bizarre. Like who would do that? Well, so the joke I made about it was that

02:05:30   I'd like that photo better if it was on the floor of an elevator. And I was joking about it.

02:05:35   In the early days of MacRumors, the thing that happened a lot and became a source of parody

02:05:45   was because digital photography was in its infancy, lots of the supposed spy photos of

02:05:52   things were terrible quality, very grainy, low resolution, terrible lighting, because

02:05:58   who had any kind of camera, let alone a digital camera, and what was the resolution and what

02:06:02   was their light sensitivity.

02:06:03   And that made it incredibly easy to make quote unquote "convincing" fake photos.

02:06:09   And so eventually it became like a joke that every time there was a supposed photo of something,

02:06:13   it was like Bigfoot.

02:06:14   Why are they never in focus?

02:06:16   And so one of the famous ones was someone took a picture of,

02:06:19   this is the new iMac, and here it

02:06:21   is, a box on the floor of an elevator in a supposed

02:06:24   convention center from a weird angle, incredibly grainy.

02:06:29   Like, if you actually had access to this thing and a camera,

02:06:34   no one would take just one terrible grainy photo

02:06:37   and post that.

02:06:38   And so when I saw this picture of this Mac

02:06:40   and supposedly in the Starbucks or whatever,

02:06:42   I'm like, this, in the modern era,

02:06:45   the resolution and color fidelity

02:06:48   and focus of this photo was awful.

02:06:50   Like, was it taken on an iPhone 3G?

02:06:54   Like, I don't understand what took this photograph.

02:06:57   And most of the mystery and authenticity of this photo

02:07:01   comes from the fact that it is so low quality

02:07:03   that you can't tell if that was drawn

02:07:06   by someone with a Sharpie marker

02:07:07   or whether it's an actual physical device.

02:07:11   Yeah, I guess if you want to give the photographer the benefit of the doubt and make the argument

02:07:18   that it is a legit shot, I guess maybe it was somebody who was nervous about being—realized

02:07:24   what they were shooting and that this person, however crazy they are to be using a prototype

02:07:30   off campus, certainly doesn't want to be photographed.

02:07:33   But they're in a public place, first of all.

02:07:36   Second of all, we see creep shots of celebrities all the time.

02:07:39   You're much more likely to be beat down by the bodyguard of a celebrity than some Apple nerd to yell at you

02:07:45   When you're in a public place, you can take a picture of them at their table

02:07:48   I know you don't want to be creepy

02:07:49   But the point is if you took the creepiest of creep shot under your arm with your iPhone

02:07:53   It would be a hundred times better than the quality of that photo

02:07:56   I don't understand why the photo is so bad and why there's only one of them, right?

02:07:59   Well, the other crazy thing about it is that and I just find this so hard to believe but it would kind of be cool

02:08:06   it would kind of warm my heart but the fact that

02:08:08   this rumor is that the Apple logo on the back of the display is the

02:08:12   Six color Apple logo. Yeah, that's that's a separate rumor and this that's why this this photo like when I look doesn't show the Apple

02:08:20   Yeah, but no it does it does show it does

02:08:22   Yeah

02:08:24   That's the reason I I made the elevator joke is because this is exactly how in the old days you would make a convince a quote

02:08:31   Unquote convincing fake you'd make it grainy you'd make it plausible and you incorporate some other rumors

02:08:36   So you're like, there has been a rumor going around

02:08:38   that Apple's gonna bring back the six color Apple logo,

02:08:40   which I certainly hope they do,

02:08:41   because I love that logo and I think it is plausible rumor.

02:08:43   Incorporate that into your fake

02:08:45   by getting someone to take a gray Dell,

02:08:49   shove an Apple sticker on it,

02:08:50   and then take an off kilter, low resolution,

02:08:53   poorly lit, out of focus photo of it,

02:08:54   and then post that one photo online and say, here it is.

02:08:57   I caught the 16 inch MacBook Pro in real life.

02:09:00   And here's the thing, if the MacBook Pro comes out

02:09:02   and it is gray and has an Apple logo on the back of it,

02:09:05   that doesn't mean that photo was real.

02:09:06   - Right.

02:09:07   - It just means that they successfully

02:09:08   made a reasonable fake.

02:09:11   God, like I used to be frustrated when I was younger

02:09:14   that people were so bad at producing leaks,

02:09:17   but eventually people got good at it.

02:09:19   Like when we see the parts leaks for the iPhones now,

02:09:22   they're good.

02:09:23   There's like 15 photos, they're in focus,

02:09:25   they're high resolution and they are legit.

02:09:27   And when the real phone comes out,

02:09:28   we can compare them side by side and say, yep,

02:09:30   those were the parts of the phone.

02:09:32   - Yeah, or the cases, right?

02:09:34   like the cases sometimes leak and it's like,

02:09:36   yep, that was a perfect cutout for the--

02:09:39   - Down to the millimeter, 'cause they give those specs

02:09:41   to the casemakers before the phones go.

02:09:43   - I think they do with some select partners,

02:09:46   but there's a huge racket, like the lesser casemakers

02:09:50   that don't necessarily have Apple's trust

02:09:52   bribe the employees at the factory to get the schematics.

02:09:56   Well, the rumors I'd use to be so much worse,

02:10:04   too.

02:10:05   They were so bad in the old days.

02:10:06   It was always—

02:10:07   John

02:10:33   They would just make up stuff from whole cloth and the sites would post it and we would read

02:10:37   it.

02:10:38   It was a fun pastime, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside.

02:10:42   Now we mostly get real rumors from supposed reputable publications like Bloomberg or whatever.

02:10:49   Right.

02:10:50   Reading the rumor sites in the late '90s, maybe very early 2000s, was a lot like reading

02:10:54   a supermarket tabloid.

02:10:56   I did it and I was interested, but I pretty much went through a whole week of posts and

02:11:01   be like, "That's bullshit. Bullshit. Nope." **Matt Stauffer** But like people who read

02:11:05   tabloids, you'd also kind of get excited sometimes like, "But what if this one is real?"

02:11:08   Like, it was like the more ridiculous they were, the more you'd like, hold that because the good

02:11:15   ones would incorporate all the little kernels of truth that are out there, mix them all together,

02:11:22   and then put a unicorn on it. And so it was like all our hopes and dreams with just enough

02:11:28   flaws ability to make us consider it at all.

02:11:35   I know you're eyeballing a Mac Pro later in the year, probably.

02:11:38   What are your current thoughts on the display?

02:11:41   It seems to me like with this news a week or two ago that LG's whatever it's called

02:11:47   display is not in fact dead.

02:11:49   It was only getting like a minor refresh.

02:11:54   To me, my take on it is that this makes me feel less certain about Apple coming out with

02:12:00   a lower-priced Pro display.

02:12:02   Adam: I mostly agree with that.

02:12:05   Apple doesn't control what LG does.

02:12:09   If LG wants to make a 5G display, that's fine.

02:12:12   It really all depends on exactly how much Apple starts pushing it in its venues.

02:12:16   How much does it push it in its stores, in its advertising, on its website?

02:12:21   I think is a stronger sign of whether Apple's going to make a reasonably priced display than the fact that LG is

02:12:26   Continuing to make the display but all that said speaking of stress dreams

02:12:31   I continue to have stress dreams about the monitor both waking and sleeping like

02:12:35   You know, I don't it's I don't need that display

02:12:40   But if I had that display, I think I would really enjoy it

02:12:42   But it's really expensive and I just go back and forth and back and forth

02:12:46   Then I think like could I buy this computer but then put something put a non-apple display on it like that's the whole reason

02:12:52   I was flipping out when Apple stopped making displays is that I couldn't stomach that idea and it's it there's an industrial design

02:12:59   Mismatch there and even if you're gonna put your Mac Pro under your desk, and so it's not right next to this display

02:13:06   It you know it's not a bad-looking display. It's very plain. It's kind of bad

02:13:12   have the bigger forehead. It's not even a symmetrical…

02:13:14   Yeah, it's not symmetric. It's a nice panel, but I just couldn't help but think

02:13:20   that when they announced the price of the Pro Display XDR and literally caused gasps

02:13:26   in the room, my thought immediately went to, "Well, why not just Apple Pro Display? Why

02:13:34   say XDR unless they were going to make a Pro Display that's not XDR?" And the XDR stuff

02:13:39   is the stuff that non-film editors don't really need. You don't really need a thousand

02:13:46   nits. You'd probably burn your eyes out if you're just coding or something like

02:13:51   that. You don't need the super high dynamic range. You just need regular dynamic range,

02:13:57   high dynamic range.

02:13:58   Adam: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Purchase-wise, I don't know what I'm going to do. It

02:14:03   is a no-brainer to me that Apple absolutely should make an iMac without the iMac.

02:14:07   But I don't understand what the whole—is this another instance where they do all the

02:14:14   Mac roundtable and get the pro workflow group and talk to all these people and no one during

02:14:18   that entire sequence said, "Are you going to have a regular monitor?"

02:14:23   What about a display in the $1,500 range?

02:14:26   Again, spending so long in corporate America, I continue to be sure that it could be about

02:14:33   anything like that within Apple, they are able to convince themselves of things that

02:14:39   seem preposterous to us on the outside.

02:14:41   No matter how much outreaching you do an hour, how many roundtables you have, no matter how

02:14:45   much talking with your customers, that somehow internally they're able to decide that this

02:14:53   is not a product that we need or we don't need it this year or we don't need to say

02:14:55   anything about it.

02:14:56   And it's just such an obvious gap.

02:14:58   Our only standalone Apple display is $6,000.

02:15:01   Yeah, it's like--

02:15:02   And you really want the $7,000 one.

02:15:05   Yeah, and here's the thing.

02:15:07   This is sort of-- the communication gap is--

02:15:09   back at that roundtable thing that you went to,

02:15:12   where they were like, we're going to make a Mac Pro.

02:15:14   We screwed up.

02:15:15   Here's what we're going to do.

02:15:16   We're recommitting to the Mac.

02:15:17   They so triumphantly said, and also, we're

02:15:21   going to make a display.

02:15:22   And there was much rejoicing, and everyone was happy.

02:15:25   And I feel like the disconnect is not about the happiness,

02:15:27   because Apple's like, "We think people want a display too.

02:15:30   We should say that.

02:15:31   We should do that."

02:15:32   And they said it, and everybody liked it, and everyone's happy.

02:15:35   Apple's smiling because we're smiling.

02:15:37   They said they're going to do a thing.

02:15:38   We say we love the thing.

02:15:40   We're all one big happy family, but we're not happy about the same thing because Apple's

02:15:45   like, "Let's make that $7,000 display now," and we're all expecting, "You can make a $7,000

02:15:51   display.

02:15:52   That's awesome.

02:15:53   I think that's a great thing for you to make, but you can have a regular one too, right?"

02:15:57   And now they come out like, "Yeah, here's the thing."

02:15:59   And then we're all grumpy and like, "But we were all happy.

02:16:02   Weren't we all happy about the display?"

02:16:03   It's like, "Yes, but we weren't thinking of the same thing."

02:16:05   Like we need to, there needs to be closer and can you guys just, you know, when you

02:16:09   say you're going to make a display, that's the problem with all this secrecy.

02:16:11   When you say you're making a display, you're not going to make a $7,000 reference monitor

02:16:16   competitor are you?

02:16:17   Like it wouldn't even occur to us to ask that.

02:16:19   And they're not going to tell you what they're going to make either.

02:16:21   They just want to roll it out and just be all smiles and wait for the plaudits to roll

02:16:25   in.

02:16:26   And it's like, "No.

02:16:27   Like, you can have that.

02:16:30   Again, I think if they had that display and also an iMac without the iMac, the story would

02:16:36   be as positive as Apple wanted it to be.

02:16:38   So we would be like, "I'm going to get this also new Mac Pro with this monitor, and imagine

02:16:43   if I have that even cooler monitor."

02:16:46   Everybody would love it, right?

02:16:47   But because they didn't, and because we all didn't find out about this miscommunication

02:16:51   until it's, you know, whatever the Henry thing, like, until we opened the gifts, and we're

02:16:56   So, I really hope they fix this eventually.

02:17:03   There's the, you know, people who don't like Apple products, nerds who don't like

02:17:08   Apple products, the longstanding decades, as far back as I can remember, even before

02:17:14   there was internet, the rap that we get is that we're brainwashed, right? We're, what

02:17:21   cultists, you know, the cult of Mac or whatever.

02:17:28   The number of people who are saying, "Just let us use an iMac as a standalone display,

02:17:36   and I'll just ignore the very nice computer that's inside," is sort of right up that—I

02:17:43   have to admit that—because it's crazy, but people really are—I can't tell you

02:17:47   whenever I tweet about this and stuff like that, how many people say, "I just wish

02:17:50   that I could plug my MacBook Pro into an iMac,

02:17:54   and that would be fine with me.

02:17:55   - Part of that is bargaining, because they're like,

02:17:57   okay, you won't do the thing that I want,

02:17:59   but how about this thing that you sorta did once,

02:18:01   bring that back, right?

02:18:01   But then part of it is also the actual convenience angle

02:18:04   of like, look, I literally do have an iMac that I use,

02:18:07   but sometimes I sit down in front of it with my laptop,

02:18:10   it would be cool to have a quick little docking thing,

02:18:12   right, so there's two halves of that, right?

02:18:14   But like--

02:18:15   - But it makes no sense, because clearly they should be able

02:18:18   to make a 5K display for less than an iMac.

02:18:22   But they should just sell it for the same price as the iMac.

02:18:26   Like it's all profit.

02:18:27   Just do not reduce the price.

02:18:29   Make it cost more than the base iMac.

02:18:31   People would buy that.

02:18:32   That's how desperate.

02:18:33   I know.

02:18:34   And that's where I think the disconnect is.

02:18:35   Apple thought that we were all happy.

02:18:38   We were sad when they didn't make monitors and we were happy when they said they would.

02:18:41   And Apple's like, "They want us to make a monitor because only Apple can make this amazing

02:18:46   breakthrough monitor."

02:18:47   And the real answer, I feel like, is we want Apple to make a monitor so it matches our

02:18:52   computer and it's really nice.

02:18:54   Like at the base level.

02:18:55   We also think it's cool if they can make an awesome monitor, right?

02:18:58   But at the base level, and the same reason we wanted to make Wi-Fi routers and USB hubs

02:19:04   is that it's hard to find nice, high-quality stuff that you know works with your system.

02:19:09   That's part of the beauty of buying Apple stuff is like, I know it will be nice, it

02:19:13   It will look nice, it will be high quality, I know it will work with the Mac because it's

02:19:18   made by the same company.

02:19:20   It'll turn on with a button, you know, when I want it to turn on.

02:19:23   It'll have nice integrations that don't, like, and yeah, it'll be more expensive, and that

02:19:27   is the bargain we have struck.

02:19:29   But Apple, I guess, interpreted the demand for and happiness with the announcement of

02:19:33   a monitor to be, they want us to make a breakthrough.

02:19:36   And I don't want to say we didn't want, we do want them to make breakthroughs, but you

02:19:39   also just had to make a decent monitor.

02:19:41   And the other weird thing about it is in the post switch to Intel world, we as Mac users

02:19:50   gained access to a lot of peripherals and things because the Mac is effectively just

02:20:00   a very specific Intel PC.

02:20:04   We can literally boot Windows if we choose to.

02:20:09   But the display world has bifurcated in such a weird way.

02:20:15   There just are no options for a nice iMac caliber 5K display out there.

02:20:20   And most PC users, especially gamers, don't want retina displays.

02:20:24   They want bigger pixels because they want to drive them at a high frame rate.

02:20:29   And so it's just very, very strange.

02:20:32   We don't have an option to go-- there's one 5K display we can choose.

02:20:36   It's from LG.

02:20:38   And it's kind of flaky and it's ugly. Yeah. And the thing is, I understand where they're

02:20:45   coming from and I still hold a lot of hope that the strategy is announce the Mac Pro

02:20:49   and the top end display and it's one big cohesive story for super duper pros and then backfill

02:20:56   later. But with Apple secrecy being the way it is and in the current sort of in-between

02:21:00   stage we are where you can't actually order a Mac Pro yet, and with the LG thing coming

02:21:05   coming out. They've reintroduced uncertainty, where I feel like they didn't have to. And

02:21:10   maybe like they, like, I don't know what kind of financial sense any of this makes, because

02:21:17   they're going to sell so few Mac Pros, and they're going to sell so few of these displays,

02:21:20   and they would sell so few of the display that we were speculating about. But like,

02:21:25   the argument for the Mac Pro has never been this is an awesome business for Apple to be

02:21:27   in. The argument, my argument has always been it's a business that Apple has to be in, even

02:21:32   if it's not particularly profitable, because to not be in it is to sort of, you know, consign

02:21:39   yourself to a narrow band of the market where you miss out on all sorts of benefits.

02:21:46   So anyway, that is my hope. My hope is that they call this one the XDR because there's

02:21:51   also a pro display. I don't know if it would be 6K. I would be happy with 5K like the iMac

02:21:56   panel, but a nice Apple branded pro display with all sorts of nice features. And it just,

02:22:03   I can't help but think that it's possible that they were like, "Well, let's hold something

02:22:07   back so that when we announce this for sale in October, that we'll have something new

02:22:13   to announce in addition to what we already preannounced at WWDC."

02:22:17   Adam: That's a terrible strategy though, because once they saw what the reaction was,

02:22:22   was they should have said, "Oh, we wanted to surprise you later. Instead, we are signing

02:22:27   you up for multiple months of being disappointed." And that's really when this multiple wants

02:22:31   a disappointment. If they had something to stop the disappointment, I think we would

02:22:36   already know about it. So I hope they're scrambling to produce something like this. But given

02:22:41   their timelines, I don't expect it anytime soon.

02:22:45   A thousand dollar arm.

02:22:46   I'm not even getting into the stand.

02:22:50   Just talking about the monitor itself.

02:22:53   Oh, Jon, it was good to have you back on the show.

02:22:56   Let's not make it a year and a half again.

02:22:58   I'll invite you.

02:22:59   You don't have to invite yourself.

02:23:00   I'll invite you back.

02:23:01   At the very least, we have a Star Wars movie coming up this year, right?

02:23:05   We could do a Star Wars Spectacular in a couple months.

02:23:08   Sure, yeah.

02:23:09   No, those don't count, actually.

02:23:10   So actually, you've got to have me on for the tech topics, but Star Wars I'm always

02:23:14   game for, for sure.

02:23:16   Well, it's always good talking to you. I enjoy your show

02:23:18   one of my favorites

02:23:21   My thanks to our sponsors this week with

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02:23:36   For being here John. It was great