The Talk Show

253: ‘An Italicized “Finally”’ With Rene Ritchie


00:00:00   I've got this gut feeling like we're recording here on Thursday the 30th

00:00:03   but I've got this feeling like I'm leaving tomorrow and I'm not I've got yes

00:00:08   but I really feel like I feel like I need to rush through the show and pack I've got it just feels

00:00:17   like it's coming so fast I don't know it is it's a lot and I'm not even editing video

00:00:26   I've as you can guess I've got I've done copious research for this episode. Yes, likewise

00:00:33   Man so anyway we are this is the

00:00:38   WWDC WWDC 2019 preview episode of the talk show. I like doing these previews with my good friend Renee Ritchie

00:00:47   For one thing of my lack of preparation you you'll usually have it all in your head

00:00:54   Did you see Brad that rat bastard?

00:00:56   panzerino

00:00:58   Yes, got another got to go into the Star Wars galaxy edge again and

00:01:02   Go on the Millennium Falcon and all that that son of a bitch

00:01:06   He's never could worse was like last month where he got to interview Tim Cook in Florida and then go for a preview

00:01:12   Of the Star Wars ride while wearing unreleased Nikes and I'm sure drinking pappy. I

00:01:17   Don't know about the pappy part but the rest of it was true. Did you see his Instagram - he was like packing for Disney

00:01:24   And it's a suitcase full of sneakers

00:01:26   Living the dream. I mean he engineered the perfect job firms. Yeah, he really did. I really did I gotta warn you

00:01:34   I hope I hope I got all my devices silenced, but we've we had a flash flood warning an hour ago here in Philadelphia

00:01:40   I don't really live on a floodplain. So I should be alright, but you know, it makes all the earth devices

00:01:45   Go go crazy

00:01:48   We were flooded for about a month. I mean like the two lots next to me. We're about under eight feet of water

00:01:53   Yeah, my problem isn't the actual flooding I really you know fingers crossed knock on wood whatever you want to do for good luck

00:01:59   I don't think that where we live were that we're actually at risk of a flood

00:02:03   But like I said for podcasting having your devices start

00:02:07   Make yes emergency broadcast. Yeah, right. It's not not really conducive to good audio

00:02:14   so my apologies if it goes off again, but

00:02:17   anyway

00:02:19   Where to start I've got some follow-up if you don't mind. Yeah

00:02:22   Now you're the only one now that previous episode. This is I think there's like new tags

00:02:26   I actually am way behind on this. I think there's new iTunes tags

00:02:30   for podcasts that include things like

00:02:34   the schedule that the show is published on like you could make it say weekly or

00:02:40   Monthly or something like that

00:02:43   Do you know anything about this at least?

00:02:47   Clients are showing stuff like that. Anyway, I have to look into it, but I can meaning to update the talk shows to

00:02:52   erratically I

00:02:55   Just got done posting

00:02:59   Episode 252 with crew from panic. Yeah, literally at the last time

00:03:05   I was sitting before I sat down to record with you was when I hit finished publishing and linking and all the various stuff for that

00:03:13   So I think everybody who's listening to this show has probably heard that one already

00:03:17   Except you because you couldn't have heard it already because it just went up so you don't know you don't know anything about it

00:03:22   But I'll bet you're excited you want

00:03:24   I will bet that you're excited about the play date. Yeah, absolutely

00:03:28   It's a it's a good litmus test

00:03:31   Enthusiasm for the play date is a good litmus test for people who share my enthusiasm for tech

00:03:39   It's just we live in a wondrous age where people like cable and panic can make a device like this like realistically

00:03:45   Build something that they're dreaming about it's fun. It's amazing. Well with and without

00:03:49   Raising a time or any money they didn't raise they borrowed nothing

00:03:54   They're they're right, you know funding the entire thing off the profits from their existing business

00:03:58   You know, it's like when I wrote about it in the 80s 90s having new platforms

00:04:06   just appear with something that happened every year or two and

00:04:11   You'd get excited and like general magic is one that pops into mind where it was

00:04:16   yeah, this crew like Andy Hertzfeld and I forget who else was involved but

00:04:21   You know Andy Hertzfeld certainly jumps into mind as as one of the primary creators of the original Macintosh, you know

00:04:28   just a bunch of you know guys when women from the

00:04:31   Original Macintosh team were there for that. I didn't think they had a great idea

00:04:36   It was a handheld PDA type thing when we called these things PDAs and they took the desktop metaphor

00:04:42   to

00:04:44   an extreme where it looked more like a video game where there was a desk and then an actual like Rolodex and an actual

00:04:51   Telephone and you interacted with it almost like interacting with like a game

00:04:56   But the pedigree was fantastic, but and you know, it's just exciting, you know, it didn't work out

00:05:02   But it things like that just happened, you know, all of a sudden the Palm Pilot appeared, right?

00:05:06   it was just a new platform and

00:05:08   That one did have legs for you know a decade or so

00:05:12   Stuff like that just happened that doesn't really happen anymore. You know, it's like

00:05:16   And at the highest end, you know of competing, you know with trying to compete with the iPhone or with Android or something like that

00:05:24   It kind of makes sense why new platforms don't just appear because they're so far behind

00:05:29   you you know even Microsoft with with Windows Phone which was I

00:05:34   Would say feature complete right it had it could do everything you wanted to do on a phone

00:05:39   But it just couldn't take off but that's Microsoft like that right now

00:05:42   The single biggest market cap company in the world and you know for the last 20 25 years one of the top two or three

00:05:49   You know richest companies in the world

00:05:52   It it wouldn't make sense for a small company like panic to make like a cell phone OS just yeah too big of a job

00:05:59   That's what makes play date such a brilliant idea that the scope of it is something that's totally within their their capabilities

00:06:06   Yeah, and the remarkable thing about it too is it lets them have complete artistic vision because even if you worked at palm under

00:06:14   Rubenstein right before web OS was announced or at Nintendo with the switch. It was a it's some form this committee's there's accountants

00:06:22   There's people who tell you what it can and can't be and you do have constraints no matter what you're doing

00:06:27   But when you're doing it on your own, especially when you're a company like them

00:06:30   You you can engineer for what you want without having to worry about all the overhead that comes with large companies, right?

00:06:37   No, exactly and that you know

00:06:39   Where was it was it in the blog post?

00:06:43   I forget where cable he didn't talk about on the show but cable wrote about how they went to a

00:06:49   Company in Portland that maybe would help them with the hardware and they kind of went in and everybody was wearing a suit

00:06:55   Maybe it was on Twitter. I forget where the hell he did it, but

00:06:57   You know and they cut they effectively

00:07:01   Got laughed out of the room because the scale was too small and that was that was before then

00:07:06   They then they went on and hooked up with teenage engineering over in Sweden who got it right away

00:07:11   Did the opposite of laughing them out of the room jumped in with two feet and said yeah, let's make this thing real

00:07:16   Yeah, it's contagious when you show it to people they immediately they smile like they're five years old again, right? It's just fun

00:07:24   Yeah now somewhere out there. There's listeners of this show who?

00:07:27   Went through an entire two-hour episode that was all about the play date

00:07:30   And they're not interested not interested in the play date and now they're worried that here. We are squandering important

00:07:36   WWDC preview time talking about it. I just had to continue my enthusiasm for this device and platform

00:07:42   I'm just so happy that well deserved that they're pulling this off

00:07:45   Let's see what else I've got here on my old follow-up list I

00:07:50   Got a couple of things here, you know a couple episodes ago Merlin man was on the show

00:07:54   I don't know if you had a chance to listen

00:07:55   But I was feeling under the weather at the time a lot of people wrote to me asked me if I'm feeling better

00:08:01   Yeah about three days after we recorded it was I've still feeling it was a weird

00:08:05   Some kind of weird bug and it was I usually when I get sick

00:08:09   I would say nine times out of ten when I get sick. It's exactly the same thing

00:08:12   It is a head cold a classic head cold. My nose is blocked. My eyes feel funny and I can't can't breathe, right?

00:08:19   This time it was weird. I don't know what it was

00:08:21   It was and it was I was so weird and I never was 100%

00:08:26   Certain that I was sick until all of a sudden it was like Tuesday night

00:08:29   All of a sudden I just felt better and instantly started sleeping better again, but Merlin turned me on to

00:08:35   because I was having trouble sleeping that was the gist of it and

00:08:38   Merlin turned me on to sleep tracking with the Apple watch. Yeah do this. I

00:08:42   Have a views David underscore Smith's a sleep plus plus. It's very good. I have that I have two apps

00:08:49   I have sleep plus plus from David underscore Smith of

00:08:52   Underscore fame. Yes

00:08:55   And at Merlin's recommendation an app called sleep watch

00:08:59   Now, I don't know why I never I never really looked into this and and I guess because dating back to the series zero Apple

00:09:08   Watch. Yeah

00:09:09   I just have always been it never really been in the habit of sleeping with my Apple watch on I do like to sleep

00:09:13   with a watch

00:09:14   But I usually take it off put it on the charger and put like a mechanical watch on in case I want to check the

00:09:18   time in the middle of the night or something like that. But, and the other thing too is

00:09:24   I sort of figured it was like doing a workout where you have to start and stop it like you

00:09:30   tell your watch or go into bed tell your watch you woke up and then it measures all this

00:09:34   stuff and I just when I go to bed I just want to jump into bed and fall asleep and when

00:09:38   I wake up I don't think I can't think of stuff like that I'm a very slow starter shocker

00:09:43   But it turns out you don't need to do that.

00:09:45   You just wear your Apple watch, go to sleep, and these apps detect everything they need

00:09:51   to detect automatically.

00:09:53   Literally no start, no stop.

00:09:55   I don't have watch apps installed from either of those apps.

00:10:01   Your watch just the biometric data that the Apple watch naturally takes and then transmits

00:10:07   back to your iPhone securely.

00:10:09   You grant these apps access to your health data.

00:10:13   These are iPhone apps, and they just automatically do this.

00:10:17   And it's really interesting to me.

00:10:20   And because you literally have to do nothing other than the only thing you really have

00:10:23   to do is figure out some sort of schedule for charging your Apple Watch other than overnight.

00:10:30   So you know, the most obvious is, you know, like when you're in the shower, something

00:10:33   like that, which gets me most of the way to 100%.

00:10:38   You know, find another time throughout the day to give it a little bit of a charge and

00:10:42   it works. Fascinating stuff. It really is. I really can't believe how—and I just can't

00:10:49   believe how totally automatic it is.

00:10:51   Benji Farr, Jr. Yeah, and then the other thing is you have to remember to go look at it and

00:10:54   then try to figure out what it all means and how you can improve things and if you're

00:10:58   getting too little sleep or you're not sleeping well during certain periods, if you're getting

00:11:01   enough REM sleep, which is always interesting for me.

00:11:05   Well, I let both apps—I granted both of these apps permission to send me notifications.

00:11:12   And I think both of them do the same thing where at some point in the morning or for

00:11:16   me afternoon, right after I get up, they just send me one alert a day with like, "Here's

00:11:23   a summary of your night before."

00:11:26   I will say that I think Sleep Watch is a little bit more accurate at detecting my sleep times,

00:11:34   But it's close.

00:11:35   They're both close to an uncanny degree at showing it.

00:11:41   And for things like today, I was still sleeping, but I heard the doorbell package arrived.

00:11:49   And both of them have this five-minute gap in my morning where I knew I was—I just

00:11:56   remembered thinking like, "Hey, I'll be interested to check if these apps—what these

00:11:59   app show for that five-minute stretch around 9.30 in the morning, and both of them had

00:12:05   it. Really, really interesting. So I thank Merlin. I thank David_Smith. I thank the makers

00:12:11   of SleepWatch. But for anybody out there who's never really tried it, thinking like I did

00:12:18   that it would be a pain in the butt that you wouldn't keep up with, really, I can't hurt

00:12:22   to try these apps. You can try them for free, and it's really interesting.

00:12:26   - It's interesting to see if Apple Sherlock's that

00:12:28   at some point in watchOS and Nintendo,

00:12:30   I don't know if you saw it, but earlier this week,

00:12:31   Nintendo announced their version.

00:12:33   They're making a sleeping game and a sleeping accessory.

00:12:38   - No.

00:12:39   - Yeah, it's, I think it's called Pokemon sleep or something

00:12:41   and then you put this little bracelet on

00:12:43   while you're sleeping.

00:12:44   - Are you putting me on?

00:12:46   - No, they said that we've revolutionized walking

00:12:48   by rewarding you for doing walking with game points

00:12:50   and now we want to do the same thing for sleep.

00:12:53   So they're working with Niantic,

00:12:54   which is the Google spinoff that did Pokemon Go with them.

00:12:57   And they're making an accessory,

00:12:58   it's called the plus plus, I think,

00:13:00   'cause previously they had just a plus.

00:13:01   So the better thing than plus is plus plus.

00:13:04   And it's a sleep thing and you'll get rewarded

00:13:06   with game events and bonuses and stuff

00:13:09   if you wear it while you're sleeping.

00:13:10   - Not to be confused with sleep, plus plus.

00:13:13   - No, well, I think David has a case.

00:13:15   - I wouldn't be surprised,

00:13:16   I would not be surprised if this gets Sherlock'd by iOS,

00:13:21   which will lead us into a discussion

00:13:23   of what might be coming in iOS 13.

00:13:25   It just seems natural.

00:13:26   And it really does seem like the watch is already collecting

00:13:30   the data that needs to be there.

00:13:31   Like I said, you don't press Start, you don't press Stop,

00:13:33   you don't say, OK, I'm up.

00:13:35   I mean, you can adjust it manually later if you want to,

00:13:37   if it got it wrong or something like that,

00:13:39   or if, I guess, like, if you didn't have the watch on

00:13:43   or something.

00:13:45   So I, you know--

00:13:46   And they have bedtime in the clock app already.

00:13:49   It just doesn't really do anything interactive yet.

00:13:51   Yeah, and I don't want that.

00:13:52   You can set these apps to give you suggestions

00:13:54   for like, tell you when to go to bed.

00:13:55   I can't have that.

00:13:57   - No, it just annoys you

00:14:00   because you know you have more stuff to do.

00:14:02   - Or I'm not finished with a movie or something.

00:14:04   - Yeah, totally.

00:14:05   - I'm not going to bed before I finish the movie.

00:14:08   So anyway, sleep tracking, give it a shot.

00:14:10   I cannot believe that I was,

00:14:12   how ignorant I was about how automatic it could be.

00:14:15   A couple of episodes ago,

00:14:18   I don't even know how many at this point,

00:14:20   this has been sitting in my follow-up queue,

00:14:22   I complained about how hard it is to connect AirPods to your Mac.

00:14:29   And what I want, like with that utility from Gee Rambo, AirBuddy, you open it up near your

00:14:37   Mac and you get a little nice window, sort of like the one you got on iOS, except his

00:14:43   has a button that says connect and then you can hit the connect and then it pairs them.

00:14:47   I want the iOS one to have that button too.

00:14:49   I could switch when I switch between my iPad and my phone. I want it to be easier a

00:14:54   couple people told me

00:14:57   That you can on the Mac connect them using the volume menu bar item

00:15:03   I didn't realize this because I've turned off the volume menu bar item

00:15:08   years ago, you know out of some sort of effort to

00:15:15   to make some sense out of the gazillion apps

00:15:19   that want to have an icon up in your menu bar on the Mac.

00:15:24   So I didn't need the volume one.

00:15:26   I have volume keyboard controls.

00:15:28   I think I have it on my iMac, but on my MacBook, I don't.

00:15:31   I just use the buttons on my keyboard for volume,

00:15:35   but I didn't realize that the volume menu bar icon

00:15:37   has a way to connect them.

00:15:39   And I figured I would mention,

00:15:40   while I speak about this problem

00:15:42   having way too many menus up there in the menu bar. Make a little recommendation. There's

00:15:46   two apps that I know of that help you manage this. The one that's been around the longest

00:15:50   is called Bartender. It's an app utility you use that lets you hide and show menu bar icons

00:15:57   up there and then you have just a little thing that you can press to show the ones that you've

00:16:01   hidden. So they're there. You can get them, but they're not always there. Like at least

00:16:04   on my 13-inch MacBook, a lot of times if I use an app with a lot of menus like BB Edit

00:16:10   or some of the pro apps, anything that has a lot of menus. You get like a collision where

00:16:16   the icons coming in from the right collide with the help menu coming in on the left from

00:16:21   the actual menu. Bartender can totally solve that. There's another one called vanilla,

00:16:26   which I was using for a while, but I think Bartender is more polished, at least version

00:16:30   three. Do you use any either of these utilities?

00:16:32   No, mine is just like an ever increasing junk drawer of many. And I should have known to

00:16:37   look for something, but it's just more and more stuff builds up in there. And since I

00:16:40   room I haven't had to deal with it. I think I might be misremembering but I think older versions of

00:16:45   Bartender they add like a Bartender item and then you hit that item and then a sub menu bar opened

00:16:53   underneath the menu bar with all the ones you stashed away. I found that distasteful. Bartender 3

00:16:58   instead gives you you can set the icon to something else including like a guy that looks

00:17:03   like a bartender like in a tuxedo but the default is just a little dot dot dot which means more. You

00:17:09   You click the dot, dot, dot and it toggles between the ones you're showing now and the

00:17:13   ones in your other set.

00:17:15   So it's like you have two sets.

00:17:16   The main one that's in your regularly visible, hit the dot, dot, dot and it switches to all

00:17:21   the alternates.

00:17:22   I like it a lot and it only costs a couple of bucks.

00:17:24   Well worth it.

00:17:25   What else here in the follow up?

00:17:29   The other thing is that on iOS, I did know this, that you can go to control center on

00:17:35   on iOS, go up there to the top right, pull down,

00:17:38   and go to the media playback thing in Control Center,

00:17:41   and then hit the AirPlay looking button,

00:17:45   and you can switch to your AirPods from that.

00:17:50   I knew about that, but it's not a great solution

00:17:53   for quickly pairing it to another device in all cases,

00:17:56   because for me, a lot of the time,

00:17:58   let's say I have it set to my iPad.

00:18:01   I have my AirPods paired with my iPad,

00:18:03   And a lot of times when I want to quickly switch them

00:18:06   to my phone is because I'm on a phone call.

00:18:09   Like somebody called me or I called somebody

00:18:11   and I'm like, well, I wanna,

00:18:12   I like doing all my phone calls with AirPods.

00:18:14   I think it sounds better.

00:18:16   I love having it in both of my ears.

00:18:18   You know, it just seems like a convenient way

00:18:20   to make phone calls.

00:18:21   But when you're on a phone call,

00:18:22   you can't use the media playback controls

00:18:24   because it's not media, right?

00:18:26   So it doesn't work for that.

00:18:27   So I appreciate the suggestion to everybody who sent it.

00:18:29   And it's good to know that for media playback,

00:18:32   you can go up to Control Center and do it.

00:18:34   But I still think there should be an easier way.

00:18:35   I think there should just be like an optional dedicated

00:18:38   AirPods button right there in Control Center.

00:18:40   And you tap it and it just quickly pairs your main AirPods.

00:18:44   I don't know.

00:18:45   - Yeah, the thing is that there's a contextual control

00:18:47   in phone app once it detects the AirPods,

00:18:49   but if it doesn't detect them,

00:18:50   there's no way to solve that problem.

00:18:51   And the thing that's hysterical to me is that

00:18:53   if you enable it, there's the remote listening button

00:18:56   gets front and center on Control Center,

00:18:59   but you can't turn on the AirPods

00:19:01   to actually turn on remote listening

00:19:03   without going into a buried menu setting.

00:19:05   They just need to think that through some more.

00:19:08   - And then what was the last one?

00:19:09   I think the last one,

00:19:10   I think it was the episode Paul Kvassus was on

00:19:11   when we were talking about

00:19:12   how there is a battery replacement program for AirPods.

00:19:17   It's like 50 bucks a piece.

00:19:18   And I was confused as to whether it was before

00:19:21   or after the warranty.

00:19:25   And I think it's before the warranty expires,

00:19:27   get the $50 per AirPod replacement thing. So that's it for follow-up.

00:19:34   Anyway, there's been a lot of controversy. A lot of people are bitching about the AirPods.

00:19:42   There was a really bad piece, in my opinion, on Vice that I didn't link to. The McElope

00:19:47   did a good job of sort of dismantling it. Like, "I hate AirPods, and then you shouldn't

00:19:53   them. And it really seemed to be not about AirPods or their place in our society, but

00:20:01   rather the writers' hang-ups and her personal problem.

00:20:07   There's this really weird trend, and this really real trend, I see it like in the Outline

00:20:13   and in Business Insider, Tech Insider, a lot where someone goes, like they'll go to an

00:20:18   Apple store and they'll have to wait five minutes, and that prompts an entire article

00:20:22   about how the Apple store is terrible now,

00:20:25   or their iPhone is terrible.

00:20:26   And it's not like we sent 10 people

00:20:28   to 10 different Apple stores at 10 different times

00:20:31   and recorded the, it's not like old school reporting.

00:20:33   It's just like, ah, you know, this was bad.

00:20:35   I'm gonna complain about it in article form.

00:20:37   And they publish it.

00:20:38   And it's really strange to me reading that

00:20:41   when I'm used to reading, you know, actual journalism.

00:20:44   - And any other piece that was out there this week

00:20:45   was about the recyclability of AirPods

00:20:48   and that they're a tragedy, a disaster. And I guess I kind of get it. I mean, ideally,

00:20:57   it is a little wasteful that two, three years in, a battery wears out and it makes financial sense

00:21:04   just to buy a new pair rather than replace the battery. And it's just the world we live in now

00:21:11   where batteries are built in. Even the Playdate has a built-in battery. I talked about that.

00:21:17   You just don't, you don't see many devices these days

00:21:21   with replaceable batteries.

00:21:23   - I mean, there's a design cost,

00:21:24   like, and that's the thing people don't think about.

00:21:25   They'll often say, I want it to be repairable,

00:21:27   but you can't change anything about it.

00:21:29   And that's not how it works.

00:21:30   Like AirPods, where you could unscrew them

00:21:32   and put in a AAA battery and screw them back on,

00:21:35   would have to be designed completely differently.

00:21:37   It'd also be much bigger.

00:21:38   They would be much heavier.

00:21:40   I mean, you can have whatever you want.

00:21:42   You just can't have it all at the same time.

00:21:44   And Apple does recycle them.

00:21:45   Like they put, I forget, was it Lisa Jackson or somebody

00:21:48   said that there's a remarkable amount of material

00:21:50   that they can get from them, but battery is just fuel.

00:21:53   It's like you fill up the tank and eventually that wears out

00:21:55   and you have to replace it.

00:21:56   And in these cases, just think of the AirPod as a battery.

00:21:59   You have to swap it out.

00:22:01   It's a very tiny, tiny package,

00:22:03   mostly a battery with a couple of sensors

00:22:05   and speakers strapped onto it.

00:22:07   - I thought that, and I realized that they do have batteries

00:22:10   and the lithium ion isn't good for landfills

00:22:13   and it makes them a little different than old wired air buds. But the McElope made the

00:22:18   point that in the McElope's household, on a monthly basis, there were wired air buds

00:22:26   being thrown out for years because they'd get caught on a doorknob or something and

00:22:30   fray. They just didn't last. I mean, we've thrown out here in the Tearing Fireball world

00:22:36   headquarters, we've thrown out an awful lot of wired headphones over the years for

00:22:40   same reason. They tend to get frayed. They broke. And I realized physically, it's the

00:22:49   same size as AirPods, but I realized that the lack of a battery makes it slightly different.

00:22:56   But…

00:22:57   Well, the Bose noise-canceling ones that I had, the Buds, it was a joke in our industry

00:23:00   that they would wear out after a year and you'd have to buy the latest version because

00:23:03   you had to keep recharging them and the charge cycles are finite.

00:23:07   I still have my first AirPods. I actually have a still—I guess I should send them back. I've got

00:23:12   the new ones from my review unit I've been using. That's a good reminder to send those back. But my

00:23:17   original pair from what, over two years ago, they don't hold the charge they used to, but they're

00:23:23   fine. They're not—I didn't—and I use them a lot. Amy's definitely had less battery life because

00:23:30   she's like a daily—she uses them more extensively every day. And hers definitely was showing

00:23:36   strains. Yeah, the convenience has a cost in charge cycles. Yeah. Anyway, that's it

00:23:43   for follow up on to let's talk WWDC. Lots. I get the feeling. My spidey sense says it's

00:23:53   going to be a big one. I guess it is most years now. I guess it's almost like, you know,

00:23:58   when's the last time there was a sort of meager WWDC? You know, I feel like Apple's firing

00:24:04   on all cylinders. They've gotten, I think, a little bit—well, a lot more consistent

00:24:12   about being able to keep multiple operating systems up in the air at the same time on

00:24:17   a regular basis, the years where the Mac doesn't even get updated or distant history.

00:24:23   Yeah.

00:24:24   Yeah, no, absolutely. I think the last one where there was a lot of pushback was when

00:24:28   they first announced Apple Music and they had Jimmy up on stage for an extended period.

00:24:34   That was not good.

00:24:37   That was probably the worst moment in an Apple keynote that I can recall.

00:24:42   It seemed very clear that for whatever reason he had decided not to rehearse.

00:24:50   And then he had like Boz a couple years later.

00:24:53   He did almost a better pitch phenomenally well.

00:24:56   Yeah.

00:24:57   And then he got confused at one point.

00:24:59   Remember?

00:25:00   What did he say? It was like something that sounded like a,

00:25:02   I'm never going to remember exactly,

00:25:04   but it was something that seemed like an in-joke to the crowd,

00:25:08   like referencing some old Apple thing, but it wasn't,

00:25:10   it was just a coincidental turn of phrase. But when the crowd broke into applause,

00:25:14   it like totally took him by surprise and took him out of it. Very awkward.

00:25:19   I don't anticipate that. Was that the WWDC? That was WWDC?

00:25:23   Yeah. It was one of their one more thing. I think so.

00:25:26   One of their one more things.

00:25:27   Yeah. That was really strange.

00:25:28   have that wrong. It might have been a September event. I have to double check now.

00:25:31   Pete: Yeah. Well, who knows? Things that won't be announced are things that they announced

00:25:38   in the last week or two. New MacBook Pros and just two days ago, the iPod Touch,

00:25:47   which had been rumored to have a pending update for a long time, suddenly appeared.

00:25:54   Yeah, June 8, 2015. So yeah, WWDC.

00:25:57   Yeah. Yeah. That's a bad fit for WWDC too. I realized some of it sometimes it's if they

00:26:02   have something to announce and they don't want to wait until September and they don't want to hold

00:26:09   an entirely different event in the summer than WWDC it is, whether it's developer related or not.

00:26:15   But that one seemed particularly, it just was a bad fit. And I remember too, it was a long keynote.

00:26:20   Yeah. Yeah.

00:26:21   What do you want to talk about first, iOS or macOS? I think iOS probably has more going

00:26:25   on.

00:26:26   Yeah, sure, yeah, because, well, the iPhone is the most popular device and they sort of

00:26:30   want to get that up front a lot of the time.

00:26:32   So we have leaks from, as far as I can tell, mainly from two sources, just KeyRambo at

00:26:40   9to5Mac and Mark Gurman, surprise, surprise, at Bloomberg. So we know some things, or we

00:26:48   We think we know some things.

00:26:50   I think that there's still a lot that we don't know though.

00:26:55   I'd be very surprised if there's not a fair amount

00:26:58   that we don't know.

00:26:59   - Yeah, I mean, it doesn't cover,

00:27:01   even the leaks that there have been,

00:27:02   they cover a few high level features,

00:27:04   but there's always, I don't know, like a 10,

00:27:07   eight to 12 tent pole features in a release.

00:27:11   And some of the teams seem way better

00:27:12   at containing that stuff than others.

00:27:14   - Yeah, one thing I heard this year

00:27:18   from a pretty good source was that this is the first year that Apple's distributed

00:27:21   internal betas differently than before, where I don't know how many hundreds of people

00:27:27   within Apple are already seeded with iOS 13 betas. I don't know. Probably a lot. But

00:27:35   that this year, the builds that are being—I don't know if this is true or not, but I

00:27:39   don't have it firsthand. But what I have to understand is that they've made a new

00:27:44   build system this year where a lot of stuff that's cosmetic is like effectively, in

00:27:51   programming terms, if deffed out of the builds that are distributed.

00:27:55   Actually it's probably exactly how they're doing it.

00:28:00   So a lot of the builds that employees have don't have a lot of the cosmetic stuff that's

00:28:07   changed.

00:28:08   And maybe that's why some stuff has not leaked.

00:28:12   I don't know.

00:28:13   Well, there were a few years where people had to wear those, the years they had bigger

00:28:16   design changes, like when they changed iOS 7, obviously, but even when they had the new

00:28:20   control center, they had to wear those privacy shields on their phones whenever they went

00:28:24   out.

00:28:25   Yeah, yeah.

00:28:26   And, you know, stuff often leaks 48 hours before the keynote just because all of a sudden

00:28:34   while rehearsals are going on, it's all of a sudden more people have to be led into the

00:28:39   circle, and therefore there's more people who could leak.

00:28:42   So who knows what will leak after we record, but.

00:28:46   - And they're getting better.

00:28:46   Like there was a few years ago

00:28:48   where things would hit internal mailing lists

00:28:49   and then they start to leak

00:28:50   and then they started to buckle down

00:28:52   on who would have access to those mailing lists.

00:28:54   I mean, they are getting better at it

00:28:55   but it's still surprising how much,

00:28:57   and not like not accidentally,

00:28:59   like there was a couple,

00:29:00   was it one year they accidentally posted

00:29:02   one of the firmwares without masking out

00:29:05   a lot of the internal code.

00:29:07   And I think Steve or somebody found it,

00:29:09   but this year it's just traditional, classic old leaks.

00:29:12   - Yeah.

00:29:14   Dark mode has long been rumored.

00:29:17   And even without leaks,

00:29:19   the fact that it appeared in Mac OS first

00:29:22   was sort of a hint that it might appear in iOS.

00:29:25   That's something, you know, people are excited about.

00:29:29   I don't know if it's my age and my eyes or what.

00:29:33   I can't really get used to it.

00:29:35   I use it, I've used it for years in BB Edit.

00:29:38   I've had a dark color scheme in BB Edit

00:29:40   and I do a lot of writing there.

00:29:42   And so I can definitely, I can use it,

00:29:45   but for navigating the whole system,

00:29:47   it always throws me off a little bit.

00:29:49   So I don't really use it on the Mac.

00:29:52   I just keep a handful of apps like BB Edit in dark mode,

00:29:55   which I also like just to make it very, very easy

00:29:58   to identify it visually.

00:30:00   There's my BB Edit window over there

00:30:01   behind this other window.

00:30:02   I can tell because it's all almost black.

00:30:05   - I love it.

00:30:07   I mean, people love it as much as they love emoji.

00:30:08   I'm sure it's like Craig said that last year

00:30:10   when they showed it off on the Mac, just huge applause.

00:30:13   And even if you don't use it

00:30:14   because you ultimately find it super oppressive

00:30:16   and kind of depressing, you just wanna have it.

00:30:18   And they've been teasing,

00:30:20   well, they haven't teased it at all,

00:30:21   but people have been expecting it.

00:30:22   It came to the watch and then they thought,

00:30:24   "Oh, we'll get it on the iPhone for sure."

00:30:26   And they come up and they say,

00:30:27   "We have dark mode for Apple TV."

00:30:29   - Do you mean the watch app for the phone?

00:30:32   - Well, the watch itself has always been dark mode.

00:30:35   - Yeah, the watch came out with dark mode

00:30:36   and then people thought, oh, the iPhone's gonna get it too.

00:30:38   And it didn't, the Apple TV got it.

00:30:40   And then we got OLED iPhones, and they go,

00:30:41   finally, we're gonna get dark mode,

00:30:43   and then the Mac got it.

00:30:44   And then this year, finally, or, you know,

00:30:46   expectedly, finally, we'll get dark mode on the phone,

00:30:49   probably, you know, from marzipan compatibility

00:30:51   if nothing else.

00:30:53   - I'm curious, I'm curious what they'll do

00:30:56   with like the Apple Watch app for iPhone,

00:30:59   which has always been effectively dark mode.

00:31:02   It's a almost black or black background.

00:31:04   Like when you're in dark mode,

00:31:06   will the watch mode turn light?

00:31:08   Or--

00:31:10   - Or it should just follow, right?

00:31:11   Like it should follow, they should have to make a light mode

00:31:14   'cause Maps already has both, a couple things have both

00:31:16   but everything should have both.

00:31:18   It should just be standard, consistent,

00:31:20   developers should be able to use it, built-in apps,

00:31:22   it's either in light mode, dark mode,

00:31:24   and it'd be nice if you could have it change at sunset

00:31:26   or by some timer mechanism.

00:31:28   - Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they do that

00:31:30   because I think Apple TV does that, right?

00:31:33   Or am I making that up? - I'm not sure.

00:31:34   I'm 80% sure.

00:31:38   I'm sure enough that I would wager

00:31:40   that I have my Apple TV set to be light mode in a day

00:31:42   and dark mode at night.

00:31:44   And the funny thing is I never really notice.

00:31:47   It isn't like, oh, it switched.

00:31:49   It just seems very natural.

00:31:51   - Yeah, it's a full screen device.

00:31:53   - I think I'm more likely to use dark mode on iOS

00:31:56   than I am on Mac, but there are certain apps

00:31:58   that I think it would be so weird to be using in dark mode,

00:32:02   like email, right?

00:32:03   Like, I don't know why.

00:32:05   It just seems crazy to me

00:32:07   to have a black background for email,

00:32:08   even though when I first started using email in the '90s,

00:32:11   it was with a black background in a terminal window.

00:32:14   So I guess-

00:32:16   - Well, I guess the point is that it doesn't glare.

00:32:17   Like if you're in bed with somebody else,

00:32:19   it's not glaring and keeping them awake

00:32:21   while you're typing out your email.

00:32:22   - Yeah, and everybody's long been speculating about it

00:32:26   because OLED can do black in a more power efficient manner

00:32:31   'cause it's not lighting up pixels to make them black.

00:32:33   like turns them off. So everybody's always thought, well, dark mode would be more, would

00:32:39   give you more battery life. But I don't, I think I've read a few things where it's like,

00:32:44   in theory, yes, but in practice, it doesn't work out that way. The difference is so minor

00:32:51   as to be theoretical. You know, like maybe you get like one more percent, you get like

00:32:56   three minutes of extra battery life before your phone dies or something like that. It's

00:33:00   It's not the sort of thing where it's like, holy crap, my battery lasts 50% longer because

00:33:05   I'm a dark one.

00:33:06   Yeah, and it's got a light up and on light pixels.

00:33:07   I think it ends up working out to, like you said, just a very...

00:33:11   All the things about OLED, you get nothing for free.

00:33:13   There's so many ways you have to mitigate that technology just to make it workable that

00:33:16   it's astounding.

00:33:17   Yeah, yeah, totally true.

00:33:20   So there's dark mode coming.

00:33:21   What else do we got?

00:33:23   New reminders app or at least...

00:33:27   I forget who I'm stealing this from, maybe multiple people,

00:33:31   but I like the analogy that,

00:33:34   I think the Apple Notes app used to be

00:33:36   a piece of hot garbage.

00:33:37   I really hated the way it looked.

00:33:41   It was one of the poster children

00:33:44   for the skeuomorphic design,

00:33:47   where it looked like an actual paper pad,

00:33:49   had ripped pages at the top, it had staples.

00:33:53   And the thing that of course killed me

00:33:55   was that it used the, what was the name of that font?

00:33:59   - Markerfelt. - Markerfelt font.

00:34:01   The one thing I'll tell you, I was in a Slack today

00:34:03   talking to friends and we were talking,

00:34:05   somehow Scott Forstall's name came up.

00:34:07   - Yeah. - And he, I will say this,

00:34:10   and he was obviously instrumental

00:34:11   in the entire look and feel of iOS

00:34:14   throughout that entire era.

00:34:16   Multiple times where I either met him,

00:34:19   like after, you know, chatted with him briefly

00:34:22   after a keynote or just observed him like after an event.

00:34:25   He was a rabid user, or probably still is, of the Notes app.

00:34:31   Like anything that popped into his head,

00:34:33   he, like the way that I use like a paper notebook for stuff,

00:34:35   he used the app.

00:34:36   And I remember seeing him one time,

00:34:38   it was at the 2012 October event,

00:34:42   a week before his exit from the company.

00:34:47   It was an event actually held at the California Theater

00:34:52   in San Jose, which is near and dear to my heart, for obvious reasons. He was not on

00:34:59   stage in that event, and then a week later we all said, "Hmm, I guess that's why."

00:35:04   But I did see him in the hands-on area, which was tiny. Were you at that event?

00:35:09   Jared: No, I don't think so.

00:35:10   Dave: You would have remembered it. Because it's a beautiful, beautiful theater, as anybody

00:35:15   who's been to the live episodes of the talk show at WWDC can attest. It's the same theater

00:35:20   I've been using since WWDC moved to San Jose. But the theater didn't really have a good

00:35:27   hands-on area. And it was one of the last shows Apple did where they just sort of made

00:35:34   the best of what the facility had as opposed to the last few years where if they need to

00:35:40   build an entire pop-up building like they did with—remember with the Apple Watch?

00:35:44   They created an entire building on that college campus in Cupertino just to have a massive

00:35:53   hands-on area for the Apple Watch.

00:35:56   So it was a real tiny little area, an anti-room of this theater, low ceiling, real hot, but

00:36:04   I saw a forestall by himself.

00:36:05   And what was he doing?

00:36:06   He was pecking away in Apple Notes.

00:36:10   So at least he used it.

00:36:12   So I give him credit for that.

00:36:13   Anyway, as of a couple of handful of years ago,

00:36:16   they did a major, major revision to Apple Notes.

00:36:19   It used to sync, believe it or not.

00:36:23   This seems crazy and it's partly why I hated the app,

00:36:25   but it used to sync over IMAP.

00:36:27   - Yeah, it was terrible.

00:36:29   (both laughing)

00:36:30   - Right, and you're like, "IMAP,

00:36:31   "isn't that the email protocol?"

00:36:32   And it's like, "Yeah, that's exactly right."

00:36:34   And is IMAP meant for that?

00:36:38   No. (laughs)

00:36:40   It wasn't.

00:36:41   it technically worked and I guess it worked best with iCloud because Apple could then

00:36:47   make sure that their iCloud, Mac.com, Me.com, whatever you were using at the time, that

00:36:52   their IMAP server would at least work in the way the Notes app wanted it to. But using

00:36:57   it with Gmail was crazy. I remember it for a while when you used it with a Gmail IMAP

00:37:02   account, even if you enabled IMAP on your Gmail account, the way Gmail was set up was

00:37:06   like every time you made... Because it was treating... The IMAP server thought these

00:37:10   notes were emails. And you'd edit them. And every time you edited a note for some period

00:37:16   of time when you had it syncing with Gmail, it would create a new note. So every edit

00:37:21   was a new note and you'd have it like if you edited the same note eight times, you'd have

00:37:26   eight copies of it each with incrementally more text. It's not a good system. Anyway,

00:37:33   three four years ago, three years ago, four years ago, Apple switched and they rewrote

00:37:38   it and now the syncs via CloudKit and it's really good sync. And of course in

00:37:43   iOS 7 it got a new interface and uses, you know, it still does have a press

00:37:49   interface. Yeah it still does have a bit, it still is one of the few apps that has

00:37:53   any hint of skeuomorphism or for lack of a better word. And apparently they had to

00:37:58   spend an awful lot of time to get a look that Jonathan and I was happy with for that.

00:38:01   Right because it's it it's it you know there's yeah there's like a little bit

00:38:06   of a 3D embossed to the navigation text, etc. But anyway, a serious rethinking of an app

00:38:13   that had been sort of languishing in a very, very rudimentary form for years. Anyway, long

00:38:21   story short, it seems like that's what they're doing with the Reminders app, that the Reminders

00:38:25   app has been there for, God, I don't even, it wasn't in the original iPhone. It's been

00:38:32   around for a while though. It seems like they're really—it's a very serious evolution of

00:38:41   this app, making it more useful. But I still think simple enough from what we've seen

00:38:45   of these screenshots that it's not like a Sherlocking or Things, who I would say has

00:38:55   sponsored the talk show in recent weeks. So I'll just say that as a disclaimer. Or

00:38:59   or our friends at the Omni group,

00:39:01   like you said, with OmniFocus.

00:39:03   In the same way that the updated Apple Notes app

00:39:07   hasn't killed third-party Notes apps.

00:39:10   There's apps like Bear and a couple of other ones

00:39:12   that are more popular than ever.

00:39:14   So it's a good balance for Apple to strike.

00:39:18   And I think it's a good app for them

00:39:20   to give a little love to.

00:39:22   - Yeah, it should have basic functionality,

00:39:24   not no functionality.

00:39:25   It's probably a good guide.

00:39:26   (both laughing)

00:39:28   The best thing to me, the best thing about the built-in reminders app now is using it with Siri and saying

00:39:34   hey dingus remind me to pick up the dry cleaning Friday at 4 and

00:39:39   That to me is rock-solid

00:39:42   Works like a charm. I don't want it on my calendar. You know, I just want

00:39:47   My ding all my devices to just ping me at 4 o'clock on Friday to remind me to go pick up the dry cleaning

00:39:53   Yeah, and I think Siri kid has had to do functionality for a while, too

00:39:57   So you can you can ding us a lot of different apps now. Yeah, I

00:40:01   Wouldn't be surprised that's you know, if we want to go off the the path here of

00:40:07   delineating things that have leaked and talk about things that haven't

00:40:11   I'm really interested to see if there's a lot of Siri stuff for developers this year

00:40:18   Because oh god help me with his last name. John John G

00:40:23   John G Andrea, she Andrea, the former head of search at Google who left for Apple about

00:40:32   a year ago, I believe. Yeah. Is that right? Is that the timeframe? He got there about

00:40:36   a year ago. Yeah, maybe it was a few months ago. Got your vice president. Yeah. Yeah.

00:40:42   Which to me seemed like a forget if you were the one on the show when we talked about that

00:40:46   when he got the title upgrade. Yeah. Seemed like maybe it was like a mutual trial period.

00:40:51   I'm sure it's not, you know, his reputation speaks for itself as head of Google search.

00:40:56   But you know, maybe it was like a personality fit thing before they bestow the very limited

00:41:01   number of senior vice president titles at Apple.

00:41:03   Yeah, I don't imagine anybody just walks in on one of those.

00:41:06   Right, but he's very few people.

00:41:07   I'm very curious if the fruits of his leadership and you know, the series been even before

00:41:15   Before he got there, the whole Siri and AI effort has been under a lot of changes from

00:41:23   years ago.

00:41:24   Well, didn't Bill get it like a week after Scott left and it was sort of just dumped

00:41:29   on?

00:41:30   No, Bill joined the company, Scott left, and then immediately he was given Siri.

00:41:34   Right.

00:41:35   And then it really had no ownership because he had no vested interest in it.

00:41:40   Scott was the one that was pushing it previously.

00:41:42   And then it sort of bounced around in Eddie's org for a while before being shipped off to

00:41:46   Craig and now now finally it has a home with people who want it and love it.

00:41:49   You know, and in a very serious commitment to doing the best AI and machine learning

00:41:57   work in the industry, you know, at the very highest level, something that Apple, you know,

00:42:03   clearly was did not have the reputation for.

00:42:06   It's like their silicon team now it's like we want the best go do it.

00:42:10   So that's on my list as we ping pong back and forth between, I mean, I haven't seen

00:42:13   any leaks about Siri.

00:42:14   I think there was one, I think Rambo had one about them finally doing media, which is super

00:42:20   great because I want to just be able to say Overcast or Audible or any of the audio programs

00:42:28   and just have it work.

00:42:29   Yeah, that would be a big one for me.

00:42:31   Like if I could command Overcast to play the newest episode of, you know, insert name of

00:42:38   Podcast here. That would be fantastic

00:42:40   Get Spotify off their backs make Netflix happy

00:42:43   Yeah, well and you know, I really am in the habit. I mean now it's nice whether it's may

00:42:49   So it's not too big an issue but going through winter like to me

00:42:52   That's the the single biggest game changer about air pods in general is winter on it when you have bad weather

00:42:59   Yeah, and being able to actually do stuff

00:43:01   without touching anything

00:43:05   just by saying hey dingus into the

00:43:08   You know, especially with the new air pods where they have the yeah. Yeah, no tap. Hey dingus

00:43:14   It's just it was just truly game-changing in terms of my interaction with the phone and podcasts and stuff like that

00:43:22   while I'm wearing a winter coat and gloves and do not want to take that gloves off and do not want to take my

00:43:28   Phone out with numb fingers and risk dropping it, etc

00:43:32   I think the only thing he said that was complicated was how do you get the catalogs in because like the Spotify catalog is

00:43:38   Different than the iTunes one the Netflix catalog is different than the iTunes one

00:43:42   How do you get it to understand or how do the developers or the content providers get it to understand?

00:43:47   When you're saying words and when you're asking for titles of media that maybe the system has never heard before

00:43:52   Yeah, I don't know. But anyway, I would like to see that. Yeah, what else what else is on the rumor list?

00:43:57   I'm like I told you I don't have notes

00:44:00   Well, I mean the other thing is that well, we're gonna talk about the Mac after but there's just a

00:44:04   They're gonna continue with the refinements and making it work better on older devices, which seems key to both

00:44:10   You know apples it drives the analysts nuts because they they actually want Apple to make devices age out faster, right?

00:44:16   You know

00:44:17   But they have this commitment to having devices last for a good four or five years and keeping the system up to date for a good

00:44:22   four or five years

00:44:24   Which I think it's not you know, it's not necessarily noble because it benefits them by having customer loyalty go up

00:44:29   But I think it's great in this age where a lot of devices are almost disposable a year after you buy them

00:44:34   Yeah, and it's good to hear that that was not just a one year

00:44:38   2018 effort and and by all accounts it when it shipped when iOS 12 shipped in September, I think

00:44:45   Andrew Cunningham at Ars Technica did like the most in-depth testing of like, okay

00:44:52   Let's see. They said this would run better on old hardware

00:44:54   "Let's test it on an iPhone 5S," or something like that.

00:44:59   And lo and behold, it was faster than iOS 11, and battery life was better, and it didn't

00:45:06   feel unusable as some iOS updates did in years past on old hardware.

00:45:12   So it's good to know that that seemingly, according to rumor, is more of a long-term

00:45:16   strategic change, not just a one-off, "Okay, let's clean up some stuff that doesn't

00:45:22   well on old hardware one time.

00:45:24   I just wonder how they're going to do it because last year they literally took people that

00:45:27   we know who were the lead engineers on major projects and said, "Hey, spend half a year

00:45:32   making this better."

00:45:33   Doing that every year will really significantly slow down the amount of new features.

00:45:37   So I wonder if they've developed a better system where this stuff gets handed over to

00:45:40   a maintenance team that just keeps it going while the other team goes and keeps making

00:45:44   the new features.

00:45:45   Well, I know you know this story because you have had Don Melton on debug, the interview

00:45:51   shows. Now, Don Melton had been at Mozilla. Long story short, had been at Mozilla, had

00:45:57   been all around the industry, but he had browser experience. He was hired early on to lead

00:46:02   the WebKit Safari team. I think it was Don's idea, wasn't it? Or maybe not, but he was

00:46:07   certainly instrumental in it. But zero regression, where the WebKit team had this policy. I don't

00:46:12   know if they still do. They might, because it certainly doesn't seem like WebKit regresses.

00:46:16   But at least in the early years, they had a policy that if you were an engineer on the

00:46:20   kit team and you were working on a feature, you couldn't check that feature into the main

00:46:25   WebKit source code and say, "Okay, I'm done. I'm checking this in. Now, next time everybody

00:46:30   does a build, my feature is in there," unless all of the tests were as fast or faster than

00:46:37   before you checked in. So you could not check anything into the code base that made Safari

00:46:43   or WebKit slower in any way. And you think, "Well, that's a great idea. Doesn't everybody

00:46:49   do that?" And it's like, "The truth is, an awful lot of engineering is done in the comments

00:46:56   to do fix this. This algorithm is slow."

00:47:01   A lot of technical debt.

00:47:02   Yeah. And it just adds up. You put something in there and you have the best of intentions

00:47:07   that I know that this is slow. I don't know what I'm doing wrong here, like syncing bookmarks

00:47:15   iCloud, but for whatever reason, the way that this thing I checked in, it's slow. I'll fix it later.

00:47:20   Well, one thing leads to another and all of a sudden it's like, well, we've got to ship on

00:47:24   Friday. Well, there it is. Your slow algorithm is in the shipping code. So that was a, I always love

00:47:30   that story. I think it really, really helped Safari take off the way it did immediately.

00:47:36   And I think it kept the WebKit code base in great shape. So maybe something more like that

00:47:42   for everything where you really do have to, like new features and new apps and stuff like

00:47:47   that really do have to be tested on the what's the slowest hardware we're going to support with this

00:47:53   and make sure that it's usable. Yeah, no, that'd be awesome. I mean,

00:47:56   they had a performance team for years and they part of that they would carry older devices, but

00:48:00   there's nothing like it being your primary focus that really hones it in.

00:48:05   I do think you're right. I mean, they're explicit about it, like the analysts in their disdain for

00:48:12   for Apple's, the longevity of iPhones.

00:48:16   They really, really, really want people

00:48:18   to buy new iPhones every two years.

00:48:21   And as time goes on, I think that that period

00:48:25   is clearly expanding.

00:48:26   People are using iPhones longer and longer

00:48:29   because they're better.

00:48:31   They're more durable.

00:48:32   The cameras are so good even on three

00:48:35   or four-year-old iPhone.

00:48:37   I see the difference.

00:48:38   You see the difference.

00:48:39   We test each one that comes out.

00:48:41   I see the difference and I'm a little,

00:48:43   we're both a bit of photo enthusiasts.

00:48:45   So we still see how even the iPhone XS camera

00:48:49   is still chasing the optical quality of it,

00:48:53   of a true like DSLR or mirrorless camera system.

00:48:58   So we're enthusiastic for even incremental

00:49:04   year over year changes, but for normal people,

00:49:06   it really is, it's absolutely no surprise

00:49:09   that their three year old or four year old iPhone

00:49:11   is good enough because the pictures are actually

00:49:13   still pretty good and better than what these same people

00:49:16   were taking 10 years ago when they had like a dedicated

00:49:20   point and shoot.

00:49:21   - Yeah, no, because the camera does so much of the work

00:49:24   for them, we have a point and shoot.

00:49:25   Most people didn't spend the time to actually learn

00:49:27   how every button worked on those cameras

00:49:29   and the auto focus and auto white balance

00:49:31   and all of the image signal processors,

00:49:33   all of that stuff now is way better than what the SLRs

00:49:35   or point and shoot cameras have.

00:49:37   Yeah, one thing, I have a Fuji,

00:49:40   I don't think I talked about this,

00:49:41   I have a Fuji X100S,

00:49:44   and the Fuji X100 line, you can Google it,

00:49:47   there was the Fuji X100,

00:49:48   then the second one was the S, which is the one I have,

00:49:51   I think it's like, I think it's at least five years old

00:49:53   at this point.

00:49:54   Then there was the T, and now there's another one.

00:49:57   It's a nice little camera from Fuji, not pocket size,

00:50:00   little bit like just the one step up

00:50:02   from what you could fit in a pocket.

00:50:03   It has a fixed lens, doesn't have removable lenses,

00:50:06   It has a fixed 28 millimeter equivalent lens.

00:50:09   I like it a lot, takes great pictures.

00:50:11   I've taken, but every year I take fewer and fewer pictures

00:50:16   of things other than iPhones.

00:50:18   But the one thing, I had it at a family gathering

00:50:20   a couple months ago.

00:50:21   I thought, let me take the real camera.

00:50:23   And the thing that really struck me

00:50:26   after having maybe not used it in months,

00:50:28   maybe six months, was how long it took

00:50:31   to go from one photo to the next.

00:50:34   like I'd snap the shutter.

00:50:36   And then I would see the preview of the image I took,

00:50:39   and it was so slow compared to an iPhone

00:50:42   in terms of how you can just go tap, tap, tap, tap, tap

00:50:44   and take the shot.

00:50:46   It's almost shocking how instantaneous it literally,

00:50:48   I don't know how else to describe it as instantaneous.

00:50:50   And it's completely spoiled me for hardware cameras.

00:50:55   And I'm sure that if I got a brand new Fuji,

00:50:57   it would be faster than my five year old one.

00:50:59   But I don't think the camera companies can compete

00:51:03   with Apple on the digital signal processing.

00:51:07   - Yeah, that's the one thing that, long story short,

00:51:10   I usually buy the Google Pixel every year,

00:51:11   but my order got screwed up with the three,

00:51:13   and then the wait period got long,

00:51:15   and then I forgot about it afterwards,

00:51:17   and then I announced the Pixel 3a, and I wanted to get it,

00:51:19   but then the camera is still great,

00:51:21   but the processor is slower,

00:51:23   and I always found the Pixel,

00:51:25   because it does post-processing for a lot of its AI,

00:51:28   for a lot of its image effects,

00:51:30   like the computational photography,

00:51:31   it's almost all post-process,

00:51:33   and I don't even like to spend time making coffee.

00:51:35   So I don't wanna wait for a photo.

00:51:37   And it just, it's a little bit slower

00:51:38   and that sort of pushed me back towards like,

00:51:41   I want the best camera and the best processor

00:51:43   I possibly can get in any phone that I get.

00:51:45   - Yeah.

00:51:46   But anyway, and the other advantage of Apple's commitment

00:51:51   to keeping the new versions of iOS running smoothly

00:51:54   on older hardware is if it runs smoothly on older hardware,

00:51:57   it's gonna run like butter on the new hardware.

00:51:59   And so everybody benefits.

00:52:01   It's not wasted effort.

00:52:03   You know, if you're always,

00:52:04   if you're like in the iPhone upgrade program

00:52:06   and you've always got the newest one,

00:52:08   it's not like Apple isn't helping you as well.

00:52:11   You know, efficient code is efficient for everybody.

00:52:14   - It's also good because they keep pushing

00:52:16   the constraints of computing down.

00:52:17   Like you had the Mac

00:52:19   and then you had to fit all that into an iPhone.

00:52:20   Then you have the iPhone,

00:52:21   you had to fit all that into a watch.

00:52:23   And now they're trying to fit a lot of computing

00:52:24   into an AirPod.

00:52:26   You know, and eventually who knows what'll be next.

00:52:28   But the better this stuff all runs,

00:52:30   the better it runs on glasses one day or some embedded architecture eventually.

00:52:34   Dave Asprey I think it's a good example. I think analysts'

00:52:36   obsession with the upgrade cycle and wanting it to be short is an interesting case of a

00:52:41   phenomenon that I think is often overlooked, which is that in an ongoing development, like

00:52:50   a computer platform like iOS or just like an application, like a text editor that has

00:52:57   been around for a long time. It matters where you start. The starting point matters even

00:53:03   as it evolves. It might become more complex. It might become more popular. It might do

00:53:08   things you never imagined before. But it matters where you start. And I think that like with

00:53:14   the PC, the PC in the 80s when it first became a phenomenon, whether it was Mac, Intel, Windows,

00:53:24   DOS version, whatever. They were very expensive. You know, Macs were two $3,000 to start easily

00:53:32   could run you for $5,000 PCs were thousands of dollars laptops when they were new were

00:53:37   so expensive 45 $5,000 $5,000 for just like a stock like lower end laptop because it was

00:53:46   just so hard to put a working functional PC into that portable form factor.

00:53:54   And so peoples, including analysts, their concept of what a PC is, is like this is an

00:54:01   investment.

00:54:02   This is sort of along the spectrum of buying like a major appliance, like a refrigerator

00:54:07   or a car even.

00:54:10   And never really had the idea that, you know, and then as the PC hardware got cheaper and

00:54:15   cheaper and now you can buy, you know, you can buy Chromebooks for $150 and stuff like

00:54:19   that and they kind of could be conceived of as disposable.

00:54:23   People don't look at it that way.

00:54:25   Whereas cell phones evolved out of these things that, you know, you'd go to your carrier

00:54:32   and spend $20 and get a new Nokia candy bar phone.

00:54:36   You know, like two years later when your contract was up again, you might as well get a new

00:54:39   phone because they were affected. They just give you one, they would just give you a new

00:54:42   phone when you renewed your contract and you'd get maybe you'd go from a black and white screen to a

00:54:46   color screen for playing the snake game. Right. And I feel like their concept their concept is

00:54:53   even though especially Apple's iPhones, but high end Android phones, you know, are 700 $800 or more.

00:55:02   Yeah. They still haven't really shaken. I think at the at that Wall Street level, the idea that

00:55:08   that phones are disposable things that should be replaced every two years.

00:55:11   And ironically, people still think that companies make their phones artificially slow to

00:55:16   afford you to upgrade, even when they're spending billions on silicon and engineering

00:55:21   resources to make sure you can keep it for four or five years.

00:55:23   Right. The people who wrote those theories, when iOS 12 came out and actually did run faster,

00:55:29   you didn't see many apologies or corrections to those.

00:55:33   No, and it was obvious even in the first beta.

00:55:35   Right. Yeah, that was always a good one. I always said, like, can you even imagine I always I always

00:55:42   like to imagine, you know, Jane engineer who works at Apple, you know, hey, here's the idea. We need

00:55:49   you to work on a search for mail. And what we want you to do is make it run really bad on on

00:55:58   old hardware. So that'll get people to buy a new phone. Like, can you imagine telling an engineer

00:56:03   at Apple that we want you to make this run badly. It's ridiculous when you think about it. I mean,

00:56:10   it's like a lot of conspiracy theories when you really kind of skip over the yada, yada,

00:56:16   yada parts and fill it in with what would actually have to happen. It completely falls apart.

00:56:20   Yeah, it's amazing.

00:56:22   Maybe I should take a break. Let's take a break. I'll thank our first sponsor.

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00:59:34   What else is on the agenda for iOS 13?

00:59:39   - I mean, something near and dear to us.

00:59:41   And I think you got the Photoshop briefing,

00:59:43   I think last year too, right?

00:59:45   Photoshop for iOS.

00:59:46   - Yes.

00:59:47   - And they start talking about

00:59:48   how they're gonna do fonts on iOS

00:59:49   'cause they don't exist

00:59:50   and we'll have to use Creative Cloud.

00:59:53   Well, it sounds like we're finally getting,

00:59:54   I'm gonna use finally for that

00:59:55   'cause I think 12 years in,

00:59:58   finally getting fonts on iOS.

01:00:00   - I've said this before,

01:00:02   I think I wrote this on "Daring Fireball."

01:00:03   If you would have told me in 1990,

01:00:07   anytime in the 1990s

01:00:09   when I was really doing a lot of desktop publishing work

01:00:13   that in the 2010s, Apple would have an all new platform,

01:00:18   a new platform, not the Mac.

01:00:22   And you could say, but don't worry,

01:00:23   the Mac is still there, it's doing well.

01:00:25   I'd be so relieved, I'd be happy.

01:00:27   I'd be unsurprised that they had a new platform

01:00:30   because like I said, back then,

01:00:31   new platforms came every couple of years, right?

01:00:34   And you'd think, I never thought the Mac

01:00:36   would be the platform for everybody forever.

01:00:39   Would have been totally unsurprised,

01:00:41   they would say has great graphical interface,

01:00:43   beautiful touch screen, everything's on touch,

01:00:46   I would have thought, well that's believable,

01:00:47   it's futuristic, that sounds right.

01:00:49   And then if you would have told me that 11 years

01:00:52   into the platform's existence,

01:00:54   you still couldn't install your own fonts,

01:00:56   (laughs)

01:00:57   I wouldn't have believed you.

01:01:00   - Yep.

01:01:01   - This is Apple, I would say, you're saying this is Apple.

01:01:03   - The company that invented,

01:01:05   basically invented desktop typography.

01:01:07   - Right, and made it literally as easy as possible

01:01:12   possible to install fonts.

01:01:15   You know, there was back in the old, old days,

01:01:17   there was, you had to install fonts.

01:01:19   You had to use a, do you remember this

01:01:20   or were you not using a Mac at the time?

01:01:22   Font/DAMover.

01:01:24   Because the fonts weren't really files.

01:01:28   There was no like fonts folder

01:01:31   and you just drug font files into that folder

01:01:33   and then they appeared that they were like resources,

01:01:37   like ResEdit level resources.

01:01:38   So you used FontDAMover

01:01:41   and it would move the font resources

01:01:43   into like a suitcase file somewhere.

01:01:46   But not a great user experience.

01:01:48   It was often the butt of jokes like in Macworld Magazine.

01:01:51   And then I think it was, I think it was system seven,

01:01:54   maybe it was system six where they invented the,

01:01:56   just gave you a folder and just said,

01:01:58   "Here, just drag your font files in this folder."

01:02:00   And that's it.

01:02:01   You don't have to restart or anything.

01:02:03   They'll just appear in all your apps.

01:02:05   There you go.

01:02:06   And then in, with macOS 10, they made it even easier.

01:02:08   You could just double click fonts.

01:02:10   they'd open in the font book app

01:02:11   and then there'd be a button that would just say install.

01:02:13   And you didn't even have to go find the font folder.

01:02:16   It would just, you just double click them, hit install.

01:02:19   There they are everywhere.

01:02:21   So yes, I give this a,

01:02:25   not just a finally, but an italicized finally.

01:02:28   Right?

01:02:30   - Yeah. - F'ing finally.

01:02:32   - Yeah.

01:02:33   And I'm just so curious as to how it's gonna be implemented.

01:02:36   Like, because is there gonna be a centralized repository

01:02:39   for fonts the way there is for photographs and files and how will they access them, how

01:02:43   will they install them, can anyone provide them? I have so many questions.

01:02:47   I do wonder, I wonder what the holdup was. I've long wondered if part of it is security

01:02:56   because there have been effectively modern fonts, the TrueType and OpenType fonts are

01:03:02   effectively software programs. I mean, that's a fascinating language, PostScript, but PostScript

01:03:09   really is a programming language. I had a professor at Drexel back in the '90s who—I

01:03:16   think he wrote his PhD on PostScript and just wrote, like, as part of his paper—it was

01:03:21   actually a really good read, but it was just a lot of handwritten PostScript to make really

01:03:26   cool vector art.

01:03:29   So fonts really are software and there have been security exploits and vulnerabilities

01:03:34   over the years where certain corrupt fonts or being able to install a certain corrupt

01:03:37   font could lead to problems.

01:03:40   And I always wondered if that was part of it, that the iOS is exceedingly high priority

01:03:46   placed on security was one of the reasons.

01:03:49   I don't know.

01:03:50   Yeah, I don't know either.

01:03:52   Again, it seems like something that Apple would be all over and certainly earlier on

01:03:56   in the cycle than this one.

01:03:57   - But it reminds me of that story, you know,

01:04:00   Ken Kishinda says where he was busy

01:04:02   of getting the keyboard done.

01:04:03   It was so hard to get the keyboard done

01:04:05   that even though he was supposed to get

01:04:06   where he wanted to get copy paste done,

01:04:08   he just couldn't do it for the launch

01:04:10   of the original iPhone.

01:04:11   And then he planned to do it for version two,

01:04:13   but then they had to do the app store

01:04:15   and doing everything for that meant that

01:04:16   there was just absolutely no time to implement copy paste.

01:04:19   So by the time iOS three came around, you know,

01:04:21   finally he could do it.

01:04:23   But it seems like, you know, 12 years

01:04:24   there must have been a nook or cranny somewhere

01:04:26   they could have put font support.

01:04:27   - Right, like I said, it's the fact that we're in year 11

01:04:31   that really makes it seem,

01:04:34   it makes it feel incredible.

01:04:36   - The contention, yeah.

01:04:37   - You know, the delay for copy and paste

01:04:40   was a little weird, but not shocking.

01:04:44   It didn't seem obvious how to do it.

01:04:45   - Well, especially 'cause Apple has like one person

01:04:47   working on this stuff.

01:04:49   - You know, I feel like they stretched it

01:04:50   as long as they could, but then they were like,

01:04:52   we gotta do copy and paste, let's figure this out,

01:04:55   we'll get it in there for iOS 3 or 4,

01:04:57   whatever it was. Yeah, the fonts thing crazy. And it's just, you know, and they tell you

01:05:02   things like you, they want you to be able to say, "Hey, my main computer is my iPad."

01:05:07   Right? And they've got pages and pages as of a couple years ago is feature equivalent

01:05:13   with the Mac version. They use the same file format, but like, in a lot of professional

01:05:18   contexts, you're supposed to use a certain font, you know, like your company font for

01:05:22   letters that go out and stuff like that. Whereas with iOS, there are ways to have fonts and

01:05:30   apps, specific apps can embed their own fonts, all sorts of apps embed a custom font to have

01:05:37   like a non-system look and feel to the interface. But just the good old fashioned, "Hey, our

01:05:44   company uses Adobe Garamond as the company font." So everybody, we have a site license,

01:05:52   as a licensed version, you install Adobe Garamond

01:05:54   on your computers and your devices,

01:05:56   and then there you go, that's what you use.

01:05:59   You can't do that.

01:06:00   So anyway, I'm very excited about that too.

01:06:02   I hope it gets keynote time.

01:06:03   I hope it's not just something that gets thrown in,

01:06:05   'cause I love fonts.

01:06:07   - Well, it's always like there's this challenge on

01:06:10   if a feature has been so long in coming,

01:06:12   do you announce it and everybody says,

01:06:14   yay, we have it, or do you announce it

01:06:15   and it's so awkward that it took so long

01:06:18   that you just put it in a little word on that slide

01:06:20   that they dropped at the very end?

01:06:21   Hopefully if they have like maybe if they have like the equivalent of the font book

01:06:25   app and there's an app and it and it's a nice interface and they can show it off and it's

01:06:29   yeah you know if it's a really nice implementation and a nice way of managing it I could see

01:06:35   it being worth you know keynote time and just act as though it's completely normal that

01:06:40   it took 11 years to get that.

01:06:42   Can I tell you can I make an aside here I want to make an aside yeah popped into my

01:06:47   my head. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but one of the techniques that the ad

01:06:54   industry on the web has used to track people is fingerprinting the fonts that you have

01:07:02   available. And this sounds crazy, but it actually makes sense. So let's say, so JavaScript can

01:07:07   like query what fonts are available in this browser. And so for example, if you have a

01:07:15   brand new factory fresh MacBook and I have a brand new factory fresh MacBook.

01:07:22   The JavaScript is going to see the same list of fonts, the ones that come with the system.

01:07:28   But let's say I've set mine up and I've put the fonts that I own, my third party fonts,

01:07:33   on my machine.

01:07:34   It's a very high chance that if I have any third party fonts at all, that my exact list

01:07:40   of fonts is, if not unique, close to unique, and therefore could be used so that if I'm

01:07:48   on website A and this company's tracker says, "Okay, here's a list of 37 non-system fonts

01:07:57   on this computer," and then I go to site B and they see the same list of 37 fonts, they

01:08:02   could make the connection and say, "This is probably the same guy on the same computer."

01:08:08   not theoretical. There's actual ad tech out there that does this. So WebKit, I'll conflate

01:08:15   WebKit and Safari. I think it's a WebKit change, but what's the difference? The Web, Apple's

01:08:19   Safari team made a change to keep sites from being able to do this. Safari no longer sees

01:08:29   any fonts other than the ones that are in system library fonts, or maybe slash library

01:08:35   but effectively the ones that come from the factory. Are you with me so far?

01:08:40   Yeah, it's the fingerprinting. The no more fingerprinting stuff is brilliant.

01:08:44   Right. Well, the fingerprinting, I think it's worth it, but there's a downside to it. So,

01:08:50   like let's say, and I know most people with websites today, most websites that use custom

01:08:55   fonts use web fonts and they have the web font as a server side thing that the client

01:09:01   downloads and you could see it and that all still works and isn't changed because it isn't

01:09:04   changing the fonts installed on your system. But there's some repercussions to this. So

01:09:10   Daring Fireball still, although these many years later, the CSS is set to display the body text

01:09:17   in a font called Verdana, which has been a web font that, what's his name, Chris Carter? Matthew

01:09:25   Carter, Matthew Carter. I can't believe I said Chris Carter is the X-Files guy. Matthew Carter,

01:09:32   Type Designer Extraordinaire, one of the great type designers of the modern era, designed

01:09:39   this font from Microsoft in the '90s. They distributed it, they gave it to Apple. It

01:09:43   became a new standard web font. It's one of the fonts that everybody can assume to use.

01:09:49   Is it a system font? If you think that I might have subtly changed the font on Daring Fireball

01:09:57   all in recent months. I have not. I haven't changed anything. But what happens is if you

01:10:06   have Microsoft Office installed, Microsoft installs a, I don't know why, but they installed

01:10:11   their own version of Verdana locally in your user fonts folder. I don't know if it's got

01:10:18   additional glyphs, if it's newer than the one that Apple has. I really don't know why

01:10:22   Microsoft does this, but they put Verdana, they put another copy of, so there's still

01:10:25   the system version of Verdana in the system fonts folder,

01:10:28   but your user, your personal user fonts folder

01:10:31   now has a new copy of Verdana.

01:10:33   Because Safari sees that, it actually,

01:10:37   Safari sees that you have a local version of Verdana,

01:10:40   this anti-fingerprinting technology means

01:10:42   that it won't render Verdana, period.

01:10:44   - Oh no. - And I think,

01:10:46   I'm not quite even sure what it uses,

01:10:48   if it falls back to Helvetica,

01:10:49   I guess it falls back to whatever is next in my CSS,

01:10:52   like as a fallback. - Yeah.

01:10:53   It's probably like just generic sans serif.

01:10:56   I actually don't even remember,

01:10:57   which is probably Helvetica.

01:10:59   So anyway, if you think Daring Fireball

01:11:02   has started looking a little funny in recent months,

01:11:04   the way to fix it is to disable your,

01:11:08   either throw it in the trash or disable it in Fontbook,

01:11:10   the local version of Verdana in your user fonts folder.

01:11:14   - Wow.

01:11:16   - The other side, I don't know how long that aside took me

01:11:20   to relay on this podcast,

01:11:22   but it took me a lot longer to figure out

01:11:25   what the hell was going on

01:11:26   when people first started sending me screenshots

01:11:28   that clearly did not look right.

01:11:30   And I actually spent a lot of time researching this.

01:11:34   (laughs)

01:11:35   - It's amazing, it wouldn't just pull the system font

01:11:38   rather than giving you a different font.

01:11:40   - Yeah, maybe what I should do is file a radar

01:11:43   and reach out to maybe some of the people I know

01:11:45   on the WebKit team and see if they're even aware of this

01:11:48   because it might be an edge case they didn't consider

01:11:51   where there is a system font that they're no longer,

01:11:55   so maybe it should be considered a bug in Safari.

01:11:57   - None of those nerds have Microsoft Office installed

01:11:59   on their machines. - No, there's no way.

01:12:01   That's the thing.

01:12:01   There's nobody working on the,

01:12:03   on the WebKit probably has Office installed.

01:12:08   The other thing too is every single person

01:12:10   who's pinged me either by email or on Twitter and said,

01:12:12   "Hey, did you change the fonts on Daring Firewall?"

01:12:15   Once I figured it out, every single time I say,

01:12:17   "I'll bet you have Microsoft Office installed."

01:12:19   And every time they say, how'd you know?

01:12:22   And then I fill in my text expander snippet

01:12:25   with the explanation.

01:12:27   - That's amazing.

01:12:29   - All right, where were we?

01:12:30   - I guess the new home screen

01:12:34   and then all the iPad specific stuff like multi window

01:12:38   and the back, the undue gesture

01:12:41   and that sort of stuff is interesting.

01:12:43   - That's an interesting one.

01:12:45   So there've been rumors for a long time.

01:12:48   Well, let's save the iPad for the second half of this.

01:12:52   But there have been rumors for a while that Apple was going to redo "Springboard."

01:12:57   It's not user—users aren't supposed to know that, but ever since the original iPhone,

01:13:04   the home screen app is in fact technically an app called Springboard.

01:13:10   And Springboard has all sorts of other duties.

01:13:13   In the early years, it had all sorts of crazy duties.

01:13:16   Like if you brought down Springboard, it effectively brought down the whole OS or at least the

01:13:20   user space part of the OS.

01:13:23   And in large part, Springboard is one of the least changed, at least the home screen experience

01:13:30   of Springboard has not changed much from iOS 2.

01:13:35   I mean iOS 1 was maybe a little bit different because there were no third party apps, so

01:13:39   there was no way to page through multiple.

01:13:40   I forget when.

01:13:41   I think the biggest thing they did was break backboard and frontboard into different entities at some point but nothing

01:13:48   Huge, yeah, so, you know is Apple ever going to radically change the home screen

01:13:54   I mean there's certain things that I I find managing a bunch of apps to be incredibly tedious on

01:14:00   the iPhone I

01:14:03   Just move and I know that you can do things with multi-touch now where you can put them in jiggle mode

01:14:07   and as you dragging an app with one finger you can tap on other apps to add them as a

01:14:13   Multiple app selection and then just drag that collection across home screens

01:14:17   But but who's sober enough to have that level of manual dexterity? Well, not me

01:14:21   It's just very fiddly and especially on the iPhone

01:14:27   It's just really gets complicated to use two hands to just isn't enough screen

01:14:32   Yeah, you know, it's something that works a little better on I've iPad with a big screen

01:14:36   Is there a major springboard update? I don't know

01:14:40   I mean there have been rumors and the rumors sort of suggested that it might have come out last year and

01:14:46   That since it didn't that meant it would come out this year

01:14:48   Yeah

01:14:49   But if so, that's something that hasn't really leaked

01:14:51   And what does that mean? Like does that mean they're gonna change the visual display of the interface or they're just

01:14:57   refactoring the way that it works and splitting it into more components and

01:15:02   Making it more flexible because they've refactored a few times and you wouldn't notice the difference if they didn't tell you about it

01:15:07   What do you what do you think about the way that like the iPhone rules have always been iOS rules have always been

01:15:13   That apps fill in from the top left on a screen

01:15:18   so if you let's say you only have two screens on your iPhone and you have a new app and

01:15:22   You want to drag it to the third screen?

01:15:25   You want to create a new third screen of apps?

01:15:27   That first app you drag is gonna be top left and that's that's where it's gonna be and there you have no choice like you

01:15:33   Can't you can't arbitrarily position them the way that you can on the Mac desktop to me to make the most obvious

01:15:40   Comparison like you drag a folder on the Mac desktop. It goes where it you let go of it. It stays where it is

01:15:46   Yeah, I mean the grass is always greener and when you have a system where you can't spend time customizing it

01:15:53   All you want to do is customize it and then we have a system that's highly customizable

01:15:56   You just wish that you didn't have to waste all this time

01:15:59   customizing it.

01:16:00   And that's sort of the back and forth that goes on

01:16:02   in each human soul.

01:16:03   But there's so many things that you can do here.

01:16:06   Like, and it feels to me like the minus one home screen,

01:16:09   when you swipe over and you get the whole widget display

01:16:12   and Siri suggested is sort of like Apple experimenting

01:16:15   with different possible interface ideas.

01:16:18   And they've just never felt like what they had there

01:16:20   was enough that they could pull the trigger

01:16:22   and make that the default home screen

01:16:24   and then have like a pages of raw icons on the side

01:16:28   like Google has the app tray in Android.

01:16:32   But this is so weird for me

01:16:33   because there's absolutely an advantage to muscle memory

01:16:35   where I know exactly where an app is.

01:16:37   I don't have to think about it.

01:16:38   I just tap it as object permanency, all of those things.

01:16:41   But we've also seen where, you know,

01:16:43   there's different times and places

01:16:44   where I do want other apps to be more accessible

01:16:46   and they might pop up there because of my behavior,

01:16:49   my location, the time of day, all these different signals.

01:16:54   But then maybe I just want that app

01:16:55   that I think is the top left corner.

01:16:57   And some people want widgets on the screen.

01:16:59   Even though I think years ago,

01:17:00   HTC has said like, nobody uses widgets.

01:17:02   Nobody changes the default widgets we put on the screen.

01:17:05   And the home screen was always meant to be a gateway to apps

01:17:08   and not a destination where you're supposed to just park

01:17:10   and look around for a while.

01:17:12   So it feels like it needs to change,

01:17:15   but I'm not sure what would be a change

01:17:16   in the right direction.

01:17:18   - Yeah, I wonder too.

01:17:19   I don't know.

01:17:21   It's just something I'm filing away in my back pocket

01:17:23   and that maybe there's a clever team at Apple

01:17:25   that's been toiling away at years

01:17:27   on some sort of seriously radically new concept for this

01:17:32   or just a better way to do the same basic thing.

01:17:36   I mean, there's gotta be a better way.

01:17:37   - Especially for iPad,

01:17:38   because I think Snell said this on the talk show a while ago

01:17:41   that if Apple had to sit down and create an iPad

01:17:44   in a world without the iPhone,

01:17:45   it would not have that interface as your home screen.

01:17:48   - I completely agree with that, I really do.

01:17:51   It just is not a good match.

01:17:54   It really, even from the very beginning it wasn't.

01:17:56   It just seemed like, as impressed as I was

01:17:59   by the original 2010 iPad,

01:18:01   the home screen spacing always felt a little off.

01:18:05   - It was everything the GarageBand app was.

01:18:07   The GarageBand was almost like the miracle

01:18:09   of modern mobile programming,

01:18:10   and the home screen just looked like an afterthought.

01:18:13   - Yeah. (laughs)

01:18:16   So the iPad is next on the same front.

01:18:19   And that's another one where there were rumors that not I, you know, sometimes I hear things,

01:18:26   I've heard stuff, but I would qualify it as rumblings, not like, "Oh, a little birdie who

01:18:33   knows exactly what is going on told me X, Y, and Z." I don't know anything like that. But the basic

01:18:38   rumblings were that last year, it was under consideration to have a serious change to

01:18:45   multitasking and the home screen on the iPad and it just got cut, supposedly.

01:18:51   All those engineers had to go work on the performance enhancements. They just couldn't

01:18:55   do both at the same time. So, you know, is that coming for the iPad? This is one, like with the

01:19:02   phone, with the home screen, that's just like, oh, that would be cool if they came up with a

01:19:06   better home screen. But I'm not frustrated by the current home screen. So if they don't,

01:19:11   I won't be disappointed. Whereas if the iPad doesn't get some serious love on this front. I'm going to be disappointed

01:19:18   Yeah, and it's it's interesting because I think one of the rumors where we're gonna get tabbed interfaces the way we have on the Mac

01:19:25   And then one of the more recent rumors

01:19:27   I forget if that was from German or not was that it was gonna have a way to swipe between different windows and also multiple

01:19:33   Windows like Safari got a while ago

01:19:35   But would they be side by side or would they be just abstract windows that you could position and again a lot of the stuff

01:19:40   You like you hear the rumor but the actual details of implementation are much harder to sort of sort out

01:19:46   Yeah, and I have to say that I got an iPad. I

01:19:50   mean, I'm glad Safari has an iPad has a tabbed interface and I don't have an idea for something better, but

01:19:58   I don't love it because for me as an

01:20:01   11 inch iPad user the tabs are always so small always

01:20:06   but it is on the other hand crazy that there's no system-wide standard for here is how for example your

01:20:13   Notes app would have two notes open at the same time like it's kind of crazy. I want all the time, right?

01:20:20   You know if you have a document that supports the concept of saving here's how you close it

01:20:27   Or just like you have the picture-in-picture window so you can have your video floating

01:20:32   but you can't have your notes app or your calculator

01:20:34   or your web.

01:20:35   And I think one of the rumors from Rambo

01:20:36   was that you'll be able to pull calculator out

01:20:38   from the multitasking interface

01:20:40   but it won't be an actual screen.

01:20:41   It'll just be part of the layover, the interface.

01:20:46   It'll never be an actual app,

01:20:47   but it just seems like there's so much they could do there

01:20:50   if they spent the time on it.

01:20:51   - What you're saying for a calculator?

01:20:53   - Yeah, they're actually making a calculator app

01:20:54   but it won't be a full app.

01:20:56   It'll just work.

01:20:57   I forget what they call it.

01:20:57   You know, when you swipe out

01:20:58   and it doesn't really take part of the split view,

01:21:00   It just it's on top of the split view.

01:21:03   It would only exist in that mode, which sounds weird,

01:21:05   but I would love that thing.

01:21:07   - I know exactly what they should call it.

01:21:09   They should call it a desk accessory.

01:21:11   - Yeah, yes.

01:21:13   - 'Cause that, for those of you who don't remember,

01:21:15   that is like I told it was talking about font DA mover,

01:21:18   the DA and font DA mover was desk accessory.

01:21:21   And in the original Macintosh,

01:21:23   which didn't support multitasking in it for the early years,

01:21:26   it did seemingly support multitasking

01:21:29   where you couldn't run a word processor

01:21:32   and a spreadsheet at the same time,

01:21:33   but you could go up to the Apple menu

01:21:35   and there was a list of desk accessories,

01:21:37   things like the calculator.

01:21:40   What was the one that was like a notes app?

01:21:41   - Yeah, I'm blanking on all the names.

01:21:44   - Boy, I can't believe I forgot that.

01:21:46   And there was one--

01:21:46   - But it's whatever you'd have on your blotter,

01:21:47   on your desk at work.

01:21:48   - Yeah, and you could have,

01:21:50   it was effectively like a permanent clipboard

01:21:52   where you could paste pictures or text

01:21:54   for frequently accessed things,

01:21:57   and then you'd open it up

01:21:58   and then you could paste the same picture

01:22:02   or your signature or something like that.

01:22:06   They ran in the memory space of the app you were running.

01:22:09   They were technically not individual apps,

01:22:11   but they looked like apps and the user,

01:22:13   for all the user could see they were,

01:22:15   but technically they weren't.

01:22:17   Anyway, that's what they could call them.

01:22:19   (laughing)

01:22:21   - I would love that.

01:22:21   I would jump up.

01:22:23   - This is why if I ever did go to work for Apple,

01:22:25   I'd be fired within a day.

01:22:27   'cause I would suggest calling it the desk accessory.

01:22:31   But anyway, that's a good idea.

01:22:32   - I think Phil would yell at you a lot.

01:22:33   Yeah, no, I think all that stuff is great.

01:22:37   It's just you're dealing with a multi-touch inner.

01:22:39   Well, there's also the rumor

01:22:40   that we'll finally be getting mouse support,

01:22:42   but it's gonna be inside accessibility and not,

01:22:45   like you can enable it.

01:22:46   It's just a toggle.

01:22:47   You turn it on and you're fine.

01:22:48   But instead of putting it front and center

01:22:50   or making it a default,

01:22:51   it'll be in the accessibility settings.

01:22:53   - I think that's fine.

01:22:54   I hadn't seen that rumor.

01:22:55   That's actually news to me.

01:22:56   but music to my ears and sounds like a great idea.

01:22:59   - I think T.G. wrote about that.

01:23:01   I think he heard that on the,

01:23:03   I think he has good iPad connections.

01:23:04   - It's a great idea.

01:23:05   It just seems kind of crazy

01:23:07   that like the iPad doesn't support it.

01:23:09   I get, and I think putting it accessibility like that

01:23:11   is a great balance between saying,

01:23:15   look, this is prime, this is for most people

01:23:17   primarily intended to be a completely touch-based system,

01:23:21   but you can use a mouse if you want to.

01:23:24   - For me, it's sort of like when Steve Jobs didn't want

01:23:27   the arrow keys on the Mac because he didn't want developers

01:23:31   to just make class, like command line apps.

01:23:34   He wanted to force people to use the GUI.

01:23:36   And by the same token, there was no,

01:23:38   I mean, it was a terrible keyboard when the iPad came out,

01:23:41   but there was no mouse support

01:23:42   because you had to embrace multi-touch.

01:23:44   But when the iPad Pro came out, I forget what that was, 2015,

01:23:48   and they had the smart keyboard, I think at that point,

01:23:50   you have to realize that if you're gonna create a mode

01:23:53   where people can use it as a laptop alternative,

01:23:56   it should have all the same trimmings

01:23:57   as a laptop alternative

01:23:58   because context switching is terrible.

01:24:01   - I think that the story was that he didn't want,

01:24:03   and the original Macintosh literally shipped

01:24:05   with a keyboard that didn't have arrow keys.

01:24:07   I thought it wasn't about developers, but so much,

01:24:09   although I think that was probably part of it too,

01:24:11   but that he didn't want users using the arrow keys

01:24:13   for text editing either.

01:24:14   He wanted them to use the mouse.

01:24:16   They were so worried, maybe rightfully so,

01:24:19   that because the mouse was a new concept,

01:24:21   that if there were ways not to use a mouse,

01:24:24   people wouldn't use the mouse?

01:24:26   - Yeah, and same with multi-touch,

01:24:27   but again, like 10 years on, you can add some things back.

01:24:31   - Yeah, like the crazy, one of the crazy things

01:24:33   about the original Macintosh compared to all the other PCs

01:24:36   of the time is that you really did need a mouse

01:24:39   and a keyboard, but you could get more done on the Mac.

01:24:42   If you only had one, you'd get more done with the mouse

01:24:44   than you would if you only had the keyboard.

01:24:46   Like you'd be more lost without the mouse

01:24:49   than you would be without the keyboard,

01:24:50   which was insane considering that on all the other computers

01:24:53   at the time you had to turn it on and start typing commands

01:24:56   to make anything happen.

01:24:57   - Yeah, it's interesting the way all this stuff evolves.

01:25:02   I mean, the other one is that, again, is that back gesture

01:25:05   or is not the back gesture, the undo gesture,

01:25:07   because, and you've written about this probably more

01:25:09   than anybody, there was just no universal way to do,

01:25:11   instead of shaking your phone, I don't know if you,

01:25:13   I don't remember if you could shake the iPad or not

01:25:14   because I would never do that.

01:25:16   - No, you can definitely shake your iPad.

01:25:18   - Okay.

01:25:18   always been able to pick it up and shake. You just look like a nut. Like I'm having a fit.

01:25:25   Yeah, this makes so much more sense. I've told this story before. I'll tell it again. I know

01:25:30   someone who worked on the shake to undo gesture. And when was that added? I forget. It wasn't in,

01:25:37   was it with copy and paste? I forget. Maybe. I don't remember Steve ever doing it on stage.

01:25:43   would have been delightful. But it was proposed as a joke because they were stuck, because it is a

01:25:49   tricky problem. The Mac has keyboard shortcuts, which is what most people use. Everybody sort of,

01:25:56   if you're going to learn any keyboard shortcuts, Command-Z is at the top of the list, and it has a

01:26:01   persistent system-wide menu bar for all applications. And every app, one of the most,

01:26:07   if not the single most standardized menu since 1984 is the edit menu. And right there at

01:26:14   the top of every edit menu is undo. Then, you know, wasn't there originally, but now

01:26:20   redo and then cut, copy paste in that order. iPad doesn't have any of those things. Doesn't

01:26:25   have a keyboard that you can count on for shortcuts. It doesn't have a menu bar. So

01:26:29   what do you do? And so somebody jokingly said, well, we could do shit. We could use the accelerometer

01:26:34   and implement shake to undo as a joke.

01:26:38   And I think it was Forstall who was like,

01:26:41   "Yes, that is it, do it."

01:26:43   - Ship it.

01:26:44   - And they were like, "What?"

01:26:45   And they were like, "Make it happen."

01:26:47   And here we are low these many years later

01:26:50   and we still have shake to undo.

01:26:53   - And I mean, I get it because gestures,

01:26:55   either you got to write these arcane spells

01:26:56   on the screen to do things.

01:26:58   And I remember Blackberry 10 did that

01:26:59   where you had to like go up and then diagonally down

01:27:01   and then another way to launch something.

01:27:03   but there's only so many swipe from the side to do things

01:27:06   and they start colliding.

01:27:07   Like even now, just like force press and, or 3D touch

01:27:12   and just putting things and long press are collided

01:27:15   and swiping up to get,

01:27:18   swiping down to get different functions,

01:27:19   I'll often do one and get the other

01:27:21   and you have to be precise sometimes

01:27:22   and it's just, it's not good.

01:27:24   So I get minimizing that, but they should really, I think,

01:27:26   rethink the entire gesture language.

01:27:28   - Yeah, I would like to see them do that.

01:27:30   And I really think that the multitasking stuff

01:27:32   really needs to be rethought. I don't think—it's good that we're not still stuck with one

01:27:38   app at a time, full screen, on every iPad. And I know that there are people like TT and

01:27:47   Jason Snell and other people who are incredibly productive on the iPad and use multitasking

01:27:51   a lot, but to me, the whole multitasking system just doesn't make sense. It really has a

01:27:55   lot of conceptual holes in it. Like the way that the Command tab sometimes doesn't list

01:28:01   apps because you just dragged them out of the—you just drugged it out of the dock,

01:28:05   and it's there, and it's running, and you can see it, but it doesn't show up in the

01:28:08   Command Tab Switcher. And why in the world does the iPad have a Mac-style Command Tab

01:28:13   Switcher in the first place? You know, don't get me started.

01:28:17   Michael Scott I use my MacBook Pro for Final Cut, but I

01:28:20   use my iPad Pro for almost everything else. And it's just simple things like not knowing

01:28:24   which of the two split views I'm in. And I start typing, and it's the wrong window.

01:28:27   Yeah, which again is the sort of thing that is insane to me.

01:28:32   It would have seemed insane to me in the 90s when, if anything, in the 90s as the Mac graphical

01:28:39   user interface evolved and went from the classic look to the, what they call it, platinum look,

01:28:45   it emphasized input focus more.

01:28:49   Like in the original Mac, it was more like iOS where if there were three text fields

01:28:54   in an app, you really kind of had to notice which one had the blinking insertion point

01:28:58   to know which one your typing was going to appear in. And, you know, eventually they

01:29:02   went to the, they put these focus rings around the input that had control. So the text field

01:29:07   that had control would have a blue, fuzzy blue, nice ring around it. And then when you

01:29:13   hit tab to go to the next field, the index focus indicator would move to the next field.

01:29:18   And you had this, this, it was, I think it was, I think I would like to see a return

01:29:22   to that sort of UI design?

01:29:24   - Yeah, it's like considerate, right?

01:29:25   - Right.

01:29:27   It's not just accessible, it is accessible,

01:29:30   but it's just considerate.

01:29:31   It's just giving you as many visual clues as possible

01:29:34   where focus is.

01:29:35   It's absolutely insane to me that we have an interface

01:29:38   that you could have two apps open side by side

01:29:40   and no indication of which one has input focus.

01:29:43   That's--

01:29:43   - Right, 'cause you never want your user to feel stupid.

01:29:45   Like a lot of people,

01:29:46   some people are really comfortable with computers,

01:29:47   but a lot of people still, even now,

01:29:50   They just, they feel like computers make them feel stupid

01:29:52   or they're inaccessible or they're alienating

01:29:55   and you wanna do everything you can

01:29:56   to make them feel empowered and not make them think,

01:29:58   oh, I don't know where I am.

01:29:59   I'm just gonna go up and get coffee.

01:30:01   - Yeah, so hopefully that's on the list.

01:30:05   I'm really looking forward to it.

01:30:06   I think they could spend a lot of time.

01:30:07   I think they could get a lot of applause

01:30:09   if they have really cool stuff to show

01:30:12   for iOS multitasking.

01:30:14   - And there's one last one that I think is really cool

01:30:16   and that's Safari is finally supposed to get

01:30:19   a download manager, but also a way to force apps

01:30:23   to go into desktop mode, because there's nothing worse

01:30:26   than being on an iPad, going to like Reddit or something,

01:30:28   and it loads the iPhone version of the site,

01:30:30   just because it identifies mobile Safari.

01:30:32   - Yeah, yeah, that's a big one.

01:30:36   And it's crazy thinking back to the original iPhone

01:30:38   and how, and even the original iPad in 2010,

01:30:43   how limited Safari was at the time,

01:30:46   just in terms of its ability to hold a whole webpage

01:30:48   memory and stuff like that. But there's no doubt at this point that an iPad can clearly

01:30:53   run the full version of WebKit or the desktop version. I shouldn't say full. I don't

01:30:59   want to denigrate the mobile version. It's just…

01:31:01   Jared Ranerelle Real Safari, not full Safari.

01:31:03   Michael Green Right. And so many websites. It's just

01:31:07   one of the, you know, to go back to that Snell thing that if the iPhone didn't exist, the

01:31:11   iPad wouldn't be like this. If the iPhone didn't exist, these sniffers that seem

01:31:15   to want to think that iPads or iPhones wouldn't exist.

01:31:19   - That's like YouTube.

01:31:20   Like there's just no reason for it.

01:31:23   - No, no, not at all.

01:31:24   So yeah, that's a very cool, much rumored linked feature.

01:31:29   It makes a lot of sense.

01:31:31   What else?

01:31:32   Were there any other screenshots that linked?

01:31:34   - Yeah, he had a couple on there and it was really nice.

01:31:37   The return of like the photorealistic tool set for markup.

01:31:41   - Oh, that's right.

01:31:41   - He had a really nicely rendered pencil and pen.

01:31:44   And I don't want to get my hopes up too high

01:31:46   because I think as much as some of the photo realism

01:31:48   went way too far, like when you have Sebastian

01:31:51   drawing those stitched leather sort of apps,

01:31:55   probably a road too far,

01:31:57   but then they went completely the other way.

01:31:59   And it feels like slowly,

01:32:00   maybe we're going to get some semblance of

01:32:03   just again, consideration back in the interface.

01:32:05   - Yeah, some use of depth and really the one thing

01:32:08   that jumped out at me with these tools,

01:32:09   these are the tools you get like in,

01:32:11   I'll bet you see the same or similar icons in notes when you're using the Apple pencil.

01:32:17   Yeah. But on iPhone and iPad, starting with I think, was it just iOS 12? Is this the screenshot

01:32:24   annotation? Is that just a year old or two years old? I think it's iOS 11. We got a quick

01:32:30   action everybody if you take screenshots, and I think everybody takes screenshots, you

01:32:33   know what I'm talking about? We're now instead of just taking a screenshot and it just goes

01:32:38   into your photo roll, now you get the screenshot and you see it and you could throw it out

01:32:44   right away if you don't want it or you get some tools. You can crop it and then you can

01:32:49   like doodle on it and stuff like that. Well, the tools are no longer completely monochrome

01:32:54   and flat. They have a bit of 3D texture, but more importantly is to me the use of color.

01:33:00   like the eraser now is, you know, like pencil pink eraser. The highlighter is actually yellow.

01:33:09   Again, seems a little crazy. But you know, design trends coming fresh air. Yeah, yeah,

01:33:15   design trends. He had some screenshots from the Mac too. And there was like a return of color to

01:33:20   the sidebar. Yes. Yeah, that's another one where I wrote about that recently where I'm hoping for

01:33:25   more vibrant tap-down states across iOS. Just as a personal wish, again, no little birdies

01:33:30   have told me this, but I have noticed, and a couple of readers, maybe it's partly what

01:33:36   inspired it, is some of Apple's own recent apps that have shipped, not ones that we're

01:33:41   looking forward to next week at WWDC, but apps like the new TV app, the updated TV app,

01:33:48   and the updated for this year WWDC app. A lot of Apple's own apps have vibrant tap-down

01:33:55   states on iOS instead of that, as I call it, dishwater gray.

01:33:58   So anyway, yeah, hopefully more stuff along those lines. I think it's right for the

01:34:04   pendulum. I don't expect any kind of radical redesign like the way that iOS 7 was this

01:34:09   radical strip it down to the bones and come up with something wholly new. But I really

01:34:14   would like to see the current look and feel evolve in a more physical dimension and sort

01:34:19   of bring back some depth to the interface.

01:34:21   Jared Polin Yeah, like just the whimsy, the joy, the delight,

01:34:24   like you have fun using it.

01:34:25   Dave Asprey Yeah. Yeah. Well, like I said in my article

01:34:27   last week, it was fun just to tap items in a list in the original iOS. It just felt like

01:34:34   you're lighting this whole thing up in this very cheerful color of blue and now you tap

01:34:38   and it just turns gray.

01:34:40   - And iOS 7 had some of that,

01:34:43   like it had the physics engine

01:34:44   where things would bounce against each other

01:34:46   and that seems to have gone away as well.

01:34:48   It just got no color and very little interaction for a while.

01:34:51   - Yeah, if anything, less physicality, right?

01:34:53   - Yeah.

01:34:54   - Oh, the Find My app.

01:34:57   That's the other big one.

01:34:58   That's the, this is much rumored from key Rambo,

01:35:02   but that they're unifying the Find My iPhone

01:35:04   and Find My Friends interface.

01:35:06   Apparently the name, at least the name

01:35:08   that they have a screenshot of the icon for is just called Find My, which is a little

01:35:13   – not that great a name. I saw somebody on Twitter last night said, "Hey, I know

01:35:23   this is heretical, but Apple has this app on the Mac with a perfect name called Finder,

01:35:30   and what if they just rename – what if they rename the Finder files to match the Files

01:35:34   app on iOS, and then reuse the finder app for the find my thing. I think they added

01:35:40   Syracuse to get his opinion and his his one character response was the thumbs down emoji.

01:35:46   And the guy was like, good enough. But anyway, it's a great idea. Right? Because they are so

01:35:55   similar. Why are they separate apps, you know, and I know a couple other podcasts have covered this,

01:36:00   but there's, you know, ATP has talked about it. But it is funny because when you're finding a

01:36:07   person, you're really not finding the person. You're finding them by, you're always finding

01:36:12   a device. Like if I'm sharing my location with you and you say, "Where's John?" It's not,

01:36:18   it doesn't magically know where I am. It knows where my, the device I've chosen to share my

01:36:23   location with, which for most of us is our phone, where our phone is. So it does make sense for them

01:36:29   them to be in one place.

01:36:31   One device keeps track of all your stuff.

01:36:32   The other one keeps track of your friend's primary thing.

01:36:34   All right, let's take a break.

01:36:38   And they have those tags, right?

01:36:39   It's just one more thing.

01:36:40   Oh, yeah.

01:36:40   They're supposedly going to be selling tile-like tags probably

01:36:44   in September that you can put on random other objects

01:36:47   and then look them in.

01:36:49   All right.

01:36:50   Yeah, I don't know if that's really coming out.

01:36:51   Seems crazy.

01:36:52   I don't expect to hear about it at WWDC.

01:36:54   No, me neither.

01:36:55   Seems like a September thing with the iPhones.

01:36:58   But it'll be interesting if there's any clues in the OS that would give up the ghost.

01:37:02   All right, let me take another break here and thank our friends at HulloPillow.

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01:39:43   Anything else on the iOS front?

01:39:45   - No, I think the rest, let's go straight into the Mac.

01:39:48   - Yeah, let's go straight to the Mac.

01:39:49   What are we expecting?

01:39:51   - So the big one is Marzipan phase two, which I will hopefully correct those few apps from

01:39:56   Marzipan phase one.

01:39:59   - I've never been more nervous about something at WWDC than I am about the Marzipan thing

01:40:05   with Mac. It's like I'm almost, it's like I don't know what order they're going to do stuff,

01:40:10   but like I worry if they start with iOS that I'm just going to be zoned out in the audience

01:40:15   and not miss it all waiting for them to please tell me that everything's going to be okay and

01:40:21   that these marzipan apps and UIKit on the Mac are going to be a great way to make great desktop

01:40:26   applications. It's amazing to see like you and a couple other people who are trepidatious about it

01:40:31   And then people like Stratton Smith or Dieter who just want them to go all in on Marzipan immediately.

01:40:36   I uh...

01:40:37   Don't get me started.

01:40:39   So what I've heard is that no one should judge Marzipan based on what happened last year.

01:40:46   That this is a completely, or at least a year more mature technology geared towards developers.

01:40:52   It's gonna have a lot more affordances to make really good Mac apps including like things that you'd expect like the menu bars and multiple windows and all that sort of thing.

01:41:01   stuff. I don't know how much it'll, I guess the worst is that they'll still look like terrible

01:41:06   Mac apps. The middle ground is that they'll look like Mac apps and the good ground is that maybe

01:41:11   they'll give us sort of a peek at what future Mac apps could look like. I don't know. I certainly

01:41:17   hope so. I do. I've known for over a year that that what we've seen as marzipan is clearly not

01:41:23   the I mean, Apple was pretty explicit last year when they introduced it that they're,

01:41:27   you know, this wasn't the whole story. And that Yeah, I think they dropped a giant slide that said

01:41:32   2019. And it made the the thud sound on the screen. Like I think that they even I mean,

01:41:39   everybody expects it this year, since they preview, they said beta for developers, phase two beta for

01:41:43   developers coming 2019. Yeah. So it's it. If it's not announced, it would be a mess. Yes, everybody

01:41:51   expects it. And the other thing that I've heard is that it's the whole take an iOS app,

01:41:58   click a checkbox or two to make a new target in Xcode, and now you can, in the same way

01:42:05   that your one project can spit out little iPhone app and a big iPad Pro version, you

01:42:12   can have a Mac version and you can create, you know, again, edit your menu bar the way

01:42:16   you'd want to and do all sorts of things that are only Mac specific. But that's only part

01:42:21   of the story is everything I understand, that there's other aspects of this sort of unification

01:42:27   of the developer story between iOS and macOS, including the thing I've heard about is

01:42:33   this declarative UI system, which I'm not equipped to really go into what a declarative

01:42:41   UI system is, and I don't want to get too much sidetracked. But suffice it to say, it's

01:42:46   a way to specify the user interface in a way that a lot of developers, some systems work,

01:42:53   newer GUI systems and APIs work and developers really like it. And it should be, if it works

01:43:00   well, a good way to do something like have an app that literally does run on everything

01:43:05   from four-inch phones to 27-inch iMacs.

01:43:09   **Ezra Klein-Lam:** Yeah. There's two things I sort of like about

01:43:11   this. One is that from who I've heard is involved in the project, I have confidence because

01:43:16   is they generally deliver really, really good,

01:43:18   really flagship stuff.

01:43:20   And two, that it's, this is a problem Apple has to solve

01:43:24   because they're one of the biggest developers making apps

01:43:26   that have to work across a really wide range.

01:43:30   They're the only UI kit for watch developer,

01:43:32   but they're making a lot of apps.

01:43:34   And right now, like messages on the Mac,

01:43:36   it still says sent with fireworks in brackets.

01:43:38   I don't know how, like three years later.

01:43:40   And the whole map, all that stuff is not tenable.

01:43:43   You just, you can't be taken seriously

01:43:45   with that kind of stuff happening.

01:43:46   And they've unified those teams and those teams have,

01:43:49   you know, are working on unified architectures

01:43:51   and they absolutely have, for themselves,

01:43:53   have to get this solved.

01:43:54   And then of course, developers benefit from that.

01:43:57   - Yeah, so zooming out to the big level

01:44:00   and not trying to nitpick specific things like,

01:44:05   oh my God, these apps have to support multiple windows.

01:44:08   Like it's insane that you cannot just,

01:44:10   while you're reading an article in the news app,

01:44:12   you can't double click it to open it in a window

01:44:14   so you can come back to it later

01:44:16   while you continue to browse other stories.

01:44:18   Like the fact that you can't do that is insane,

01:44:20   but let's just skip the individual things like that

01:44:23   and just hope that they fix it.

01:44:24   To me, at a big level, what I want this whole thing to be,

01:44:29   the whole story, what I want it to be is basically,

01:44:33   we've always had great developer tools

01:44:36   and great developer APIs and frameworks

01:44:40   so that developers going all the way back to Next

01:44:44   And so that small team of developers or one developer

01:44:47   can create an app that does so much more

01:44:51   than other platforms would allow a small team to do

01:44:55   because we have these frameworks and APIs

01:44:58   that give you all of this stuff.

01:45:01   So that apps like Acorn and Pixelmator

01:45:05   can stand toe to toe with Photoshop in so many regards.

01:45:09   Not every regard, I know, it's Photoshop is still Photoshop.

01:45:11   And I'm sure we're gonna hear about Photoshop

01:45:13   I've had next week. But because there's these great core image and all sorts of other APIs,

01:45:21   a one developer team like Gus Mueller working on Acorn or the few developers working on Pixelmator

01:45:29   can make apps that do these amazing things that in the classic Mac OS just wasn't feasible because

01:45:35   you needed an Adobe-sized team to get all that stuff in there. Well, the world's moved on,

01:45:41   though, right? And a lot of the things that are great about AppKit are the exact same things that

01:45:47   were great about AppKit 15, 16, 17 years ago. So my hope is that this story is we've always prided

01:45:53   ourselves on this, but where are we going? Where's the puck going? Here's what it is. Here's our

01:45:58   story for this is the future of making apps on all of our platforms. And this is a great way to make

01:46:07   great apps. That's the story I want to hear. What I don't want to hear is here's an easy

01:46:14   way to get your existing iPhone app running in a window on a Mac. Just click these two

01:46:22   buttons and your iPhone app is now running on a Mac and now you've got a Mac app.

01:46:26   Yeah, if we still want apps from people who care deeply about Mac apps. Right, right.

01:46:31   What I want is to make it, this is just great APIs and tools and techniques and ways of

01:46:38   doing this so that whatever great Mac app you're imagining and whatever great Mac features

01:46:43   you're imagining for your existing app, here is a way to make you, the developers, more

01:46:51   capable and more efficient and get more done sooner in a richer way to make a great experience

01:46:58   for your users.

01:47:00   we've seen we've seen over the years like Lauren Briktor made twee and Sean Herbert the icon factory made chameleon because this was a problem that

01:47:06   They needed to solve and it's it's never been they just couldn't maintain it because who can keep up with the whole UI get team

01:47:11   But Apple can right? Yes, absolutely. Only Apple can solve this really for their platforms. Hopefully that's the story

01:47:18   It would make so much sense to me if it were and then I can imagine

01:47:22   After it's been announced speaking to people at Apple and they would say I can't believe you ever doubted us

01:47:28   [laughter]

01:47:29   That's what I want.

01:47:30   Right.

01:47:31   That's what I want.

01:47:32   I want them to say to me, "Groubs, I can't believe you ever doubted us.

01:47:37   Why in the world would we just make this a dumb thing so that your iPhone app can just

01:47:43   run like it is in the simulator on the Mac, even though it's not suitable to a mouse

01:47:51   and keyboard-based interface?"

01:47:53   So…

01:47:54   Now, do you think people will be allowed to ship?

01:47:55   because it's going to be in beta, which means people may not be allowed to ship on it, but I

01:47:58   wonder how long that will last. Like, can developers play around with it? Will they be allowed to ship

01:48:03   Marzipan-based apps in September? Will they have to wait a year before it comes out of beta and

01:48:07   they're allowed to ship? Yeah, I really wonder. I, you know, it's so much is still up in the air

01:48:14   on that, this whole front for next week. It's the number one thing I'm looking forward to next week

01:48:19   by far. And I've, it might be the thing I've been looking forward to the most at a WWDC ever since,

01:48:27   I don't know, in memory, because even the app store didn't ship it up. It wasn't announced

01:48:34   at WWDC, right? Remember they held like a one-off event in February or something like that.

01:48:38   **Matt Stauffer** And Swift was a complete surprise. Nobody was expecting it.

01:48:42   **TK; Right. Swift was a complete surprise. Nobody was expecting it. So

01:48:46   Among things that I'm expecting at a WWDC, I can't think of anything greater than this future of how

01:48:52   are you going to write software for the Mac and other platforms. And will it be Mac App Store

01:48:57   only or can anybody use? Right. Like there's just so many questions. Right. Again. Yeah. It's,

01:49:03   you know, are these going to be a new class of app that is only limited to the App Store? I hope not.

01:49:09   Yeah, I hope not either. But we shall see. Along those lines, there's also the chance on the

01:49:15   hardware front that we're going to find out about the Mac Pro that we're currently waiting for.

01:49:21   And I'm going to call this a long shot, but it's going to seem like a long shot every year until

01:49:28   all of a sudden it happens is to get word of a transition from Intel processors to ARM

01:49:35   in-house designed by Apple processors for the Mac.

01:49:38   **Ezra Klein-Lam

01:49:38   - This was not a good week.

01:49:41   I don't know if you follow all the processes

01:49:42   but this is not a good week for Intel.

01:49:43   - No, I saw that AMD launched seven nanometer chips.

01:49:48   - Yeah, and Intel's like we kind of

01:49:51   'cause Intel's 10 nanometers is basically the similar

01:49:54   to Taiwan semiconductor manufacturing seven nanometer.

01:49:57   And they're like, we have this one.

01:49:58   This one thing is almost ready.

01:50:01   But AMD is just clowning them on price

01:50:03   and performance to a staggering degree.

01:50:06   - Yeah, and even if, whatever you wanna think,

01:50:09   whatever you think about Intel's current fortunes,

01:50:11   I just know, I know firsthand,

01:50:12   firsthand that Apple has been frustrated

01:50:16   with Intel for a while, you know, that that's--

01:50:18   - They can't ship, they're not producing,

01:50:19   even the chips that they can produce,

01:50:21   they're not producing sufficient quantities

01:50:23   for Apple to fill orders.

01:50:24   - Yeah, you know, it really is uncanny

01:50:27   how the Steve Jobs announcement in 2005

01:50:30   of the Intel transition from PowerPC,

01:50:34   how it really could translate into exactly just word for word what they would say about

01:50:39   this transition, that it's not just about increased power, it's power per watt, meaning

01:50:44   the size of the chip and the power that it consumes and the amount of battery life it

01:50:48   consumes in a battery powered device and how much performance you get out of it. It's everything

01:50:53   you said about it is exactly what I think people are hoping to get out of ARM-based

01:50:58   Macs in the future. And then the other thing that Jobs said in that great, great introduction,

01:51:02   It's just amazing. It's just a masterpiece of jobs keynote. Yes eating because he covers

01:51:08   this whole thing the whole it's like six minutes in the Mac as we knew it was going to be completely

01:51:15   up ended in 12 over the course of 12 months. Every bit of software you run should be updated.

01:51:20   I mean there was the the Rosetta emulator so your old apps would keep running but they

01:51:25   updated all the hardware went to an entirely new architecture and he covered the whole

01:51:29   thing and and and of course he's pitching this to the people who are most interested

01:51:33   in it developers he covered the whole thing in like six minutes but the one thing he says

01:51:39   that's I think so true is something to the effect of we can imagine hardware products

01:51:47   great new hardware products that we can't build based on the chips in the power PC roadmap

01:51:54   And that's exactly that's what Apple's been running into with Intel, you know that the

01:52:00   the MacBook Air the modern retina MacBook Air that we now have Apple had that imagined and they

01:52:07   didn't have chips from Intel to make it happen. Yeah, no, it's it's it's bananas. And the just

01:52:15   the MacBook Pro they just shipped Intel because they can't, you know, they can't improve their

01:52:20   the processor throwing cores at it.

01:52:22   So you have an eight core Intel processor now

01:52:25   crammed into a chassis that was expecting fewer cores

01:52:28   at seven nanometer or 10 nanometers.

01:52:30   And they've done an amazing job handling the thermals.

01:52:33   A lot of people, I think a lot of people,

01:52:35   like they run Geekbench and think they understand thermals,

01:52:38   but there's modern chips that are way more complicated

01:52:40   than that.

01:52:41   And they've done an amazing job at getting as much

01:52:43   performance as they can in that chassis.

01:52:45   But boy, did they probably want way better chips

01:52:47   in that chassis.

01:52:48   - So here's the question though.

01:52:49   The question is, if, and I really think the if is looking like unlikely.

01:52:56   I think it's when.

01:52:57   When Apple announces this transition.

01:53:00   Do they do it the way they did the Intel, PowerPC to Intel, which is to say by announcing

01:53:06   it at WWDC, telling developers, saying here's how you can use Xcode to get your apps recompiled

01:53:15   for the new architecture so they run natively.

01:53:18   Here's the story of what's gonna happen to old software

01:53:21   that's been compiled for Intel.

01:53:22   Will there be some sort of emulator

01:53:23   so that the apps will still run on ARM or not?

01:53:27   I don't know.

01:53:28   Explain it all and say,

01:53:30   we're going to start shipping these machines

01:53:32   later this year or early next year.

01:53:35   And in 2005 with the Intel transition,

01:53:38   they had the first hardware they had

01:53:39   where they called them developer transition kits.

01:53:43   They looked like Power Mac G5 chassis,

01:53:46   but they just had Intel computers inside.

01:53:49   And they didn't sell them.

01:53:50   I think they only leased them to developers.

01:53:52   It was like they didn't even want to sell them.

01:53:53   - You had to get them back

01:53:54   and then you got iMac or something.

01:53:56   - Right, you gave them back

01:53:57   and they gave you an Intel-based iMac.

01:53:59   But they gave them, there were ways for developers

01:54:01   to get officially supported Intel-based Macs

01:54:04   before consumers did so they could get their apps recompiled.

01:54:08   Would they do that the same way again?

01:54:09   tell developers first, risk people stop buying existing Mac hardware waiting for these things

01:54:17   to appear, or is this the sort of thing where Apple is in a different position today than

01:54:23   they were in 2005 and they can just wait till the machines are ready, announce them, and

01:54:28   then say, "Developers, you're already late."

01:54:32   Or do you say like we plug your iPad into your Mac over this USB-C cable, Xcode takes

01:54:37   over and you test on the iPad.

01:54:39   Right. I still think it's the sort of thing they might do the same way they did the last

01:54:44   time and tell us in advance before the Mac hardware ships with these chips. But I don't

01:54:50   know. I could see Apple doing it a very different way and waiting until they have them and say

01:54:55   there's, you know, even with—but that would mean shipping them with no developer,

01:55:01   no native apps for it. I mean, I guess there's some chance that—

01:55:04   The Marzipan apps will run great.

01:55:06   I guess right, you know that marzipan apps would be able to be what's that technology the

01:55:11   thing where they can change the the

01:55:14   interim representation. Yeah, not bit something

01:55:18   God I'm blanking on it to bitcode. Yeah bitcode

01:55:24   I think I don't know but whatever that maybe they could do it on the App Store end and have

01:55:29   Native arm apps spit out from things that were originally compiled for Intel. I don't know

01:55:35   - Well, they did the 64 bit transition on the watch,

01:55:37   I think entirely on the app store end.

01:55:39   - Exactly, they did.

01:55:40   That was very true and very impressive at a technical level.

01:55:43   - One thing I wonder though is like,

01:55:45   are we at a point now where most of Apple's Macs

01:55:48   use mobile processors,

01:55:49   so you could see them transitioning those.

01:55:51   But for example, to the Xeon, the iMac Pro

01:55:53   and conceivably the Mac Pro,

01:55:56   do those get transitioned at the same time

01:55:57   or do those require something different,

01:55:59   like massive amounts of cores

01:56:01   because the ARM chips only go to a certain level

01:56:03   And they if you want Xeon like performance, maybe you need 32 instead of 18 arm cores until they wait

01:56:09   It's just it's interesting to me now, right? Yeah, that's very very interesting right that you know and

01:56:14   How do they do this?

01:56:17   Like presumably the the Mac Pro that we're hoping to see announced next week is gonna be Intel based

01:56:23   I know something is a modular so the brain can be swapped out for an arm brain later

01:56:28   But how do you say here's the red camera? Here's this new?

01:56:33   $8,000 workstation that we've been working on for three years and you've been waiting on for five six years some of you

01:56:40   Based on Intel chips and by the way, we're moving away from Intel like it's a weird combination

01:56:45   Now they have these Intel machines with ARM coprocessors

01:56:49   Well, the big are the big machines go arm with an Intel coprocessor for a couple years like the whole

01:56:54   There's a lot of different ways they could do it and nobody on the outside seems to know which way they're going

01:57:01   so again, it's very exciting as a

01:57:03   Watcher of the company at somebody who have his butt in the audience that we don't know

01:57:10   We don't know what the hell they're doing. We really don't I do think do you think I I do think we'll get a preview

01:57:15   at least of the Mac Pro I

01:57:17   yeah, I

01:57:19   Think somebody would have waved somebody off at this point

01:57:22   Yeah, not expect it because some years you hear like like I remember a couple years ago

01:57:26   It's like yeah, it's not gonna be any display this year. You're like, ah

01:57:29   So it or they'll just say no hardware like they won't tell you what I knew hardware. They'll just say this is going to be

01:57:36   This year's dope, you know the end and like I wrote when the when the I think I wrote when they the updated

01:57:43   MacBook Pros came out two weeks ago that that would have been they did have phone briefings with a bunch of us a whole bunch

01:57:50   Of people and yeah press to talk about the keyboard tweak and stuff like that

01:57:54   That would have been a perfect time to say we're announcing this now

01:57:57   We're telling you about it now. Yeah, because WWDC is going to be all about software and they've done that many years

01:58:04   Yeah, they won't even say even in an off-the-record phone call. They won't say there's no hardware

01:58:09   They'll say that it's going to be all software

01:58:11   Yeah, yeah, and then you you could say does that mean no hardware and they'll say it's going to be all software. Yeah

01:58:18   It's a good way to set expectations because people right that would have used the most challenging show for them because you know the

01:58:25   September event, you're getting iPhones and watches and people love the toys.

01:58:29   But WWDC it's a developer conference,

01:58:32   but that first keynote has a massive mainstream audience that's watching it over

01:58:36   streaming. And they've been conditioned to some years, like 2017,

01:58:40   there was iPads, there were Macs, there were IMAX,

01:58:42   there was an IMAX Pro introduction, just a massive amount of new toys.

01:58:46   So they have to be real careful with expectation management.

01:58:48   Yeah, totally. So I think that we would have,

01:58:50   I think if there weren't going to be a preview, at least of the Mac Pro,

01:58:54   I mean, it'd be terrific if they can actually say and it goes on sale at the end of the month or something like that

01:58:58   I would you know people will be

01:59:00   Running up and down the aisles enjoy if that happens, you know, it's gonna be like December 31st before 12 p.m

01:59:06   We were right. I think it'll be late late to you know later in the year

01:59:10   Yeah, probably but I do think that they could show it which is what they did with the the current Mac Pro aka

01:59:17   Yeah, trash can you know, that was the infamous?

01:59:19   Can't innovate anymore my ass

01:59:23   Introduction by Phil Schiller and even the iMac Pro and turn us announced it they had them in the demo area

01:59:27   We weren't allowed to touch. Oh, don't touch

01:59:29   Everybody wanted to touch the keyboard just this keyboard

01:59:33   And there was like a

01:59:36   Security person here saying don't don't touch

01:59:39   No, no touch. I just saw Dalrymple staring at him for about five minutes, right?

01:59:44   and the the reason it seems like such an

01:59:48   I dare say no brainer to show a preview of it is it's not like they're gonna hurt existing sales of the Mac Pro because

01:59:54   Nobody's buying a Mac Pro now and hasn't been for a while unless they really you know

02:00:00   They have one in a production workflow and it breaks and they just you know, well sucks to be me

02:00:04   I got to buy in a Mac Pro

02:00:06   The three guys who need those massively parallel CP GP, right?

02:00:10   They're they're not going to hurt the sale of a product that you know isn't selling. Yeah, there's no Osborne effect, right?

02:00:16   Whereas the chance for an Osborne effect on MacBook sales across the lineup is dramatic if they say yeah

02:00:23   early 2020 they're gonna be based on our a

02:00:26   series chips or whatever they're gonna call the ones for the Mac and

02:00:31   Maybe people will be afraid and go stockpile a bunch of Intel ones in the freezer. Well, maybe but I doubt it

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02:02:20   All right, I'm trying to think what else we got

02:02:26   - Most of the Mac stuff is just catch up.

02:02:28   Like it's just screen time for Mac,

02:02:29   Siri shortcuts for Mac, family sharing for Mac,

02:02:32   file providers for Mac, external display stuff.

02:02:36   - I'm intrigued by shortcuts for Mac, you know,

02:02:39   and it's the Mac automation story is kind of weird

02:02:42   because, you know, people like me

02:02:45   who've used Apple script for years and, you know,

02:02:48   we saw Sal, so I had to leave the company

02:02:51   and that the automation group is maybe busted up,

02:02:54   maybe is no more,

02:02:55   But, you know, Apple script's still there,

02:02:57   Automated's still there.

02:02:59   I think Apple, in some regards,

02:03:03   has always taken seriously the fact that Macs

02:03:06   are used in real production.

02:03:08   And in real production, you can't, you really,

02:03:11   they're under an obligation as the platform provider

02:03:13   to keep stuff like that going.

02:03:16   It's not like we can say, wow, remember that cool new thing

02:03:18   they added to Apple script three years ago?

02:03:21   - Well, I mean, they just wanna keep

02:03:22   the printing presses running,

02:03:23   'cause all that stuff is scripted.

02:03:24   - Right, well, it's a huge part of it,

02:03:26   a huge part of all sorts of industries,

02:03:28   but print, for example.

02:03:29   The shortcut stuff can definitely do some cool stuff.

02:03:32   But it is weird because I don't think

02:03:35   they're gonna get rid of automator

02:03:36   because automator is already being used

02:03:38   and it's important to some people's production,

02:03:41   but it's really, really similar concept

02:03:44   at a basic level to shortcuts.

02:03:46   - I think they want compatibility.

02:03:47   So because it looks like they're gonna be trying to do

02:03:49   as much as they can to make Siri work consistently

02:03:52   across platform, which has been a huge problem previously.

02:03:55   - Right, and I think that's sort of the difference

02:03:57   where Automator is for automating Mac stuff and Mac apps,

02:04:02   and it's called Siri shortcuts.

02:04:04   And here I am risking turning on all my devices again

02:04:06   by saying her name, but they call it Siri shortcuts.

02:04:10   And yeah, that's exactly it, where it wouldn't make sense

02:04:15   for Automator to be cross-platform

02:04:17   because Automator is controlling all this Mac only stuff,

02:04:20   and then how would your automator thing work on iOS

02:04:22   that doesn't even have these things?

02:04:24   Whereas if it's stick,

02:04:25   if they've got a vision in mind for this

02:04:27   and have had it for a while,

02:04:29   I could see how the doing the Siri stuff

02:04:31   on the Mac would be cool.

02:04:33   And personally, it would be cooler for me, I think,

02:04:36   to create it on a Mac where you have a better interface

02:04:40   for typing stuff and dragging and dropping

02:04:42   and stuff like that.

02:04:43   - Or even just editing,

02:04:44   like you put something together while you're out

02:04:45   and you just wanna tweak a few things about it,

02:04:47   but you don't have to go in there and mess around with it.

02:04:49   be really good.

02:04:50   Dave Asprey Yeah, so I know that's been rumored. I

02:04:53   would expect that to be true. It would be a good sign of just the sort of path that

02:04:58   they've been keeping these OSes on where cool stuff on one will eventually reach the

02:05:03   other. Sometimes stuff like dark mode even hits the Mac first, which is a good sign.

02:05:10   Jared Polin And screen time stuff is just because people

02:05:13   keep, you know, it's a huge issue right now.

02:05:15   Dave Asprey And I think Apple takes it seriously. I don't

02:05:16   Apple's phoning at home. I know there was that goofy New York Times article a couple

02:05:21   of weeks ago about the apps. I don't want to rehash the whole thing, but these parental

02:05:28   tracking apps so that parents can monitor what their kids are doing and they're all

02:05:32   – they were all – how in the world, knowing the limitations of the iOS app store, how

02:05:37   in the world is an app running on a parent's phone controlling and monitoring the use of

02:05:43   apps on another phone and it was all based on the, what's it called?

02:05:47   MDM, the mobile device management. Mobile device management, the stuff that is really

02:05:52   intended for enterprise users. And you can say, I know the argument against it is, well,

02:05:56   why, if it's good enough for the enterprise, why isn't it good enough for parents? And

02:06:00   I know that's the argument some of these companies are making.

02:06:02   Because parents weren't using it. The companies were using it. The parents were sort of like

02:06:06   the conduit to get to the kids. Well, and I think that Apple, and I think correctly

02:06:10   So assumes that when a company decides, somebody who's in charge of the devices at a company

02:06:16   decides, "Okay, I'm going to go with Jamf," just to name somebody who's sponsored my

02:06:24   site many times, and they know what they're getting into and they know exactly what they're

02:06:30   entrusting with Jamf or whoever the company is who's providing. They realize, "Hey,

02:06:36   we're trusting this company with important stuff.

02:06:39   I understand that it works.

02:06:40   I understand the basics of how this whole system works.

02:06:44   Whereas parents, I don't think could be expected

02:06:47   to understand that stuff.

02:06:48   They just see, oh, I'm allowed to control my kid's phone

02:06:50   and they have no idea that all this usage data

02:06:53   is being entrusted to this company

02:06:54   that they know nothing about.

02:06:56   - Yeah, and in enterprise too,

02:06:57   you have the right to get all sorts of audits done

02:06:59   on those kinds of companies.

02:07:01   But the rumor is that Apple is gonna do an API for that

02:07:04   so that other companies can provide apps

02:07:06   that pull the data from what Apple is collecting

02:07:08   and don't have direct access to like your kid's data.

02:07:10   - Yeah. - Things like that.

02:07:11   - Yeah, that'd be great.

02:07:12   - You should be a good middle ground.

02:07:13   - Yeah, just the same way that they've done stuff

02:07:15   with location and other services over the years.

02:07:18   - Like you can't pull all the data,

02:07:19   but you can get permission to access the health repository.

02:07:23   - Right, so I could see that coming to the Mac.

02:07:28   It would be interesting, I guess, to know,

02:07:31   but it's a little bit harder to monitor too,

02:07:33   like how much, like if you've got your Twitter app

02:07:35   running in the side, but it's not active,

02:07:37   but you keep looking at it, you know, it's kind of hard.

02:07:39   It's just the nature of the Mac's interface

02:07:42   makes it harder to sort of pinpoint

02:07:44   how much time you're wasting or spending,

02:07:47   whichever verb you want.

02:07:47   - It feels like, 'cause some companies,

02:07:49   where they refer to this stuff like digital wellbeing

02:07:51   in a really patronizing way,

02:07:52   but Apple has always referred to it

02:07:54   in terms of providing you with information

02:07:56   so that you can choose to act on it,

02:07:59   not sort of like you're a bad person

02:08:00   and will help you dig your way out.

02:08:02   - Right.

02:08:03   Yeah, and I think Apple takes it seriously.

02:08:04   I know that the accusation from these other apps is that how can we you know, it's nonsense

02:08:08   to think Apple really wants you to use your devices less they've you know, their accusation

02:08:13   was that Apple made is kicking these apps out of the App Store. Now that they have stuff

02:08:18   built into iOS because they want you to use the iOS system because the iOS system is designed

02:08:23   not to actually help you limit your phone use because they don't want you to they want

02:08:27   you to keep playing Candy Crush.

02:08:28   paid per minute on

02:08:30   Well, they do they do if you're playing

02:08:33   Or clash of clans or whatever those games are that's the accusation fair

02:08:39   Yeah, but I don't I don't think that's the case at all. I think they really do want you to

02:08:43   Yeah

02:08:46   Watch OS there's always the App Store directly on the watch. I think is probably the biggest story. Yeah

02:08:51   Yeah, that's the rumor and I don't I still I doesn't make a lot of sense to me

02:08:56   I guess I don't I don't get it. I really don't I think like when I was taught I was asking you about it

02:09:02   He said the big difference here is that right now if you want to make a watch OS app that really only works on watch

02:09:07   OS or make sense on the watch

02:09:08   You still have to make an iPhone app and the watch app can be a part of that

02:09:12   But his hope is that you'll be able to make apps directly for the Apple watch

02:09:16   I guess that man it's also a step towards independence because like we got to iOS 5 before we got iCloud and PC free and

02:09:22   and we're at watch OS six and you're still bound to your iPhone. And this isn't a huge

02:09:26   bit of independence, but it's another tick on the road independence.

02:09:29   Where would you go though to look at these watch only apps? Would you do it on your watch?

02:09:35   That seems insane. Sounds like that's what it is though. You'll probably just scroll through.

02:09:40   That seems insane. You know, but on the other hand, it doesn't make sense to make an entirely

02:09:48   new watch app store app and putting an entire app store in the Apple watch app

02:09:53   which would be my my other guess is that they would just put like a new tab major

02:09:58   tab in the app the Apple watch app that is on your iPhone that they would just

02:10:04   put the watch app store in that app it's interesting because eventually you

02:10:09   figure like even if it's three four years you're gonna want people to just

02:10:12   tell me might just want to watch that'll be like the extent that they need and

02:10:15   and they don't need a way to get apps on that watch directly.

02:10:19   - I guess, I don't know.

02:10:20   That's the big rumor.

02:10:21   And then they always have health and fitness updates.

02:10:23   There's always, you know, it's to me hard to predict.

02:10:26   It's hard what they're gonna prioritize, you know.

02:10:27   - Voice memos, but no Notes app.

02:10:30   Of course, it still bugs me

02:10:32   'cause I want Notes app on my watch.

02:10:34   - Yeah, that is a little,

02:10:35   that is a bit of an oversight, you know.

02:10:37   And especially that, you know,

02:10:39   you can't even dictate to one.

02:10:42   - Yeah, I mean, I use drafts for that,

02:10:43   but I mean, it'd be nice

02:10:44   that had the base functionality and calculator.

02:10:47   So James Thompson gets a little bit of the Sherlocking.

02:10:50   - Yeah, it is a bit weird.

02:10:51   And you know, just simple things.

02:10:52   Like if I invite you over to my house

02:10:54   and I wanna give you the code to the gate

02:10:57   or something like that, you can make a note

02:10:58   and say John's gate and the code is 1234.

02:11:02   It's weird that you can't get that on your watch.

02:11:05   - Yeah.

02:11:05   - Yeah, that would be interesting if they made a notes app.

02:11:08   Apple TV, I don't know, TV OS, I don't,

02:11:13   I mean, it would be nice if they updated it,

02:11:14   I don't say I've never seen any rumors. No and usually like every year. It's been the TV app

02:11:20   That's gotten all the attention, but we just had a whole event for that

02:11:22   Right, right. It's the TV app where the the the the work is going. It's already out. We already have it. Yeah

02:11:30   So I don't I don't really expect much on that front at WWDC I

02:11:36   Mean there are things that I want like I want keyboard control for games

02:11:40   It'd be nice if they had that old guy English thing about licensed game controllers with

02:11:44   way more games available on them.

02:11:46   But all of that, it's not core watch, TBOS stuff.

02:11:50   Dave Asprey No, not really.

02:11:53   And then what else?

02:11:54   They don't have any other platforms, do they?

02:11:55   Jay Famiglietti No, not yet.

02:11:57   Not public ones at least.

02:11:58   Dave Asprey What are we missing?

02:12:00   What have we forgotten to talk about?

02:12:03   Jay Famiglietti The name, I mean, the latest rumor for the

02:12:06   Mac OS name is Mammoth.

02:12:08   Hmm

02:12:09   See, I thought they would go for Death Valley or Joshua Tree something inside of Mojave, but hmm Death Valley

02:12:16   Death Valley doesn't sound like it doesn't know a good joke for Craig to make before he goes to Joshua

02:12:23   But mammoth mammoth doesn't sound

02:12:25   It doesn't necessarily have entirely positive connotations either

02:12:30   No

02:12:33   But maybe maybe because it may be if like this whole marzipan thing is really intended to be a big deal

02:12:38   Maybe mammoth because it's like a man list they had from the trademarks was mammoth Monterey Rincon and skyline. Yeah, I

02:12:46   Don't know. I don't like these names. I don't know. I get so confused as I'm all

02:12:52   Jumbled up as to which one I wish we could just go back to numbers

02:12:55   I would just like them because the other there's no there's no public iOS name or watch OS name or

02:13:01   TV OS name just drop the 10 the leading 10 and having OS 15

02:13:04   Snell and I complained about that. That's it's just ridiculous that we're permanently but since since 1999. We've been stuck with 10

02:13:12   Yeah

02:13:14   Ridiculous drop it go straight to 15 and get rid of the marketing names. Yeah, just Mac OS 15. There we go. Yeah

02:13:21   salt

02:13:23   Trying to think anything else I

02:13:27   I can't wait. I know some stuff has leaked. Like I said, I think we've covered that there's just

02:13:32   so much we don't know about what they might do. I mean, no, and the State of the Union usually

02:13:37   follows the keynote and that often years is really exciting to I mean, it's way geekier

02:13:42   and lower level, but it's Yeah, it's usually really interesting as well. Yeah. What about

02:13:48   the conference itself? Anything? Now we're at the third year here in San Jose. I still really like

02:13:54   I mean, my biggest concern is those two coffee shops closed.

02:13:57   - I know. - What are we gonna do?

02:13:58   - What was the name of that one?

02:13:59   Oh, two of them closed?

02:14:01   - Yeah, there was, I forget the name of the other one,

02:14:03   but Social Policy.

02:14:04   - Yeah, Social Policy was the one where everybody we knew

02:14:07   was always hanging out.

02:14:09   - Like I think Marco lived there for most of the show.

02:14:11   - Yeah, my wife went there and it took like an hour

02:14:14   and 10 minutes to get a hamburger.

02:14:15   - Yeah, yeah.

02:14:17   - Shocked. - You could get a hamburger.

02:14:18   - Shocker that they closed.

02:14:20   - So I'm hoping that Apple is super smart

02:14:22   their events team has like pop-up coffee shops set up around the facility. That would be smart,

02:14:28   especially unless there's some coffee shops that we never found that have been there for a while.

02:14:35   There's like a terrible pietz inside the lobby of the hotel.

02:14:38   Because it's not really a real pietz. It's a licensed...

02:14:42   Yeah, it's like one of those lobby pietz.

02:14:44   Yeah. And they burn their coffee probably.

02:14:47   Yeah.

02:14:50   I miss San Francisco a little. I do. I don't blame Apple. If it were my decision to make,

02:14:56   I'd say, "You know what? This is right." It makes WWDC feel more Appley. San Jose is a more Appley

02:15:03   place than San Francisco. Just is. And Moscone was under construction for,

02:15:07   I don't know if it's finished yet, but it was under construction forever.

02:15:09   Yeah. It's probably always under construction. I don't know. But boy, I sure miss the convenience

02:15:15   of having a handful of, or more than a handful of, decent restaurants for lunch and/or dinner,

02:15:21   all within two blocks of wherever you are, and coffee shops all over the place, and

02:15:28   oh my god, my beloved Blue Bottle. Oh, I miss Blue Bottle.

02:15:33   Yeah, if they were smart, they'd open one right in front of the conventions.

02:15:37   My favorite highlight from WWDC for years and years was waking up much later than regular

02:15:44   attendees with my press badge, going over to Blue Bottle and having a luxuriously brewed

02:15:55   cup of drip coffee prepared on the spot for me, and then slowly sipping it as I walk around

02:16:04   the corner around Moscone and greet all my friends who've been waiting in line for

02:16:08   hours as I cruise to the front with my press badge.

02:16:12   And they have murder in their eyes, right?

02:16:14   Right. I can't believe I never got mugged and my badge taken. I miss that.

02:16:20   Do you like Phil's? You can do that with Phil's. It's about a 15-minute walk, though.

02:16:24   No, that's too far. I do like Phil's coffee, P-H-I-L-C, but 15 minutes seems like too much.

02:16:32   I forget what I did the last couple of years. I think I just took the free coffee they had

02:16:34   for us in the media.

02:16:36   I mean, coffee is coffee at that early…

02:16:39   Well, and I don't want to drink too much of it because I know I have to sit through a

02:16:42   two hour keynote and I don't want to have to, you know, go up and use the, the men's

02:16:46   room. Uh, I w I will see you next week. I'm sure. I thank you for your time. Uh, uh, I

02:16:54   don't know. I don't know what else to say other than a thank you to Renee. You can read

02:16:58   all of his good work@imore.com and on YouTube. What's your YouTube channel? Vector vector

02:17:05   - /vector show.

02:17:06   - /vector show.

02:17:07   I knew it was vector.

02:17:08   I just wasn't sure what the URL tag was.

02:17:10   - I couldn't get the base URL.

02:17:11   I had to get like the addendum.

02:17:12   - How many videos are you doing a week?

02:17:15   - I try to do five.

02:17:16   I usually end up hitting four.

02:17:18   - That's a lot of videos.

02:17:19   - Yeah.

02:17:20   - Well, it's good work.

02:17:21   You're getting better at it every time.

02:17:23   What are you gonna do?

02:17:23   - Thank you so much.

02:17:24   - I guess that's my other question for you,

02:17:25   is how video heavy are you going into this keynote

02:17:28   and the hands-on area?

02:17:30   - So I'm a little conflicted

02:17:31   'cause when you look at somebody like Marques Brownlee

02:17:33   or even like iJustine, they'll do like one big video

02:17:36   and they're not in such a rush to get it up

02:17:38   because their audiences are just,

02:17:39   like they have, you know, it's ridiculous,

02:17:41   tens of millions of subscribers,

02:17:42   but I have to cover it for iMore and do video.

02:17:46   And also, I don't think that they've been doing YouTube,

02:17:49   like Apple hasn't been doing YouTube for as much time,

02:17:52   so they don't schedule it as heavily

02:17:54   for people who are doing YouTube.

02:17:55   And I have like a normal media person schedule with DubDub.

02:17:58   So I'm gonna hope, like the last year

02:18:00   was my first year doing YouTube,

02:18:01   and it took me like three days to get a video up.

02:18:03   And I was beside myself 'cause I just couldn't do it faster.

02:18:06   So I'm gonna try to prepare better this time.

02:18:08   So I hopefully I'll have something up the first day

02:18:10   and then maybe Wednesday, Thursday after that.

02:18:12   - I have trouble getting my thoughts

02:18:15   and observation pieces written,

02:18:17   which would be just like the script for a video,

02:18:21   let alone shooting all the B-roll footage

02:18:23   that you want in the hands-on area

02:18:25   for the limited time that the hands-on area is open,

02:18:27   which is usually only about an hour or so after the event,

02:18:31   maybe 90 minutes, I forget.

02:18:32   I get whisked away for briefings at some point.

02:18:34   - And The Verge has like a seven person team

02:18:36   just smashing that stuff.

02:18:38   - Yep, and well, it's just crazy.

02:18:40   I've said it before.

02:18:41   I mean, and Apple is totally cognizant of it.

02:18:44   And they space the tables out more than they used to.

02:18:47   And, you know, effectively they design

02:18:50   the table arrangements to be as friendly

02:18:52   to the video crews as they can.

02:18:54   But it tempers flare 'cause these guys,

02:18:58   and I understand these people are all under a deadline

02:19:00   and they gotta get, you only have this limited time

02:19:02   to get the footage, but sometimes they want an angle

02:19:05   where the camera person is apart from the quote-unquote

02:19:08   talent who's holding the devices or whatever it is.

02:19:11   And if you walk in between them, they snap at you.

02:19:14   But it's like, what am I supposed to do?

02:19:15   I mean, I'm here, I wanna go see a thing.

02:19:18   I can't, you know, it's not like there's one camera crew

02:19:21   that everybody has to be cognizant of.

02:19:23   At this point, it's almost like 50% of the people

02:19:26   are in there shooting videos.

02:19:28   - Or like two years ago, when they had

02:19:30   the iPhone 10 introduction, they only had like five iPhone 10s

02:19:33   in the entire area.

02:19:35   And I forget who it was, but like one of the old time

02:19:37   journals grabbed one for like 45 minutes.

02:19:40   And because he's like so well respected,

02:19:42   nobody said anything, but like people were just lined up

02:19:44   at all, like the broadcast and video people

02:19:46   were staring death at him.

02:19:47   - Yeah, it can get nasty.

02:19:49   And now I don't expect, you know, it's the iPhone events

02:19:53   are for that exact reason are more hectic with the software,

02:19:57   With WWDC, who knows?

02:20:00   There isn't really quite a hands-on area

02:20:02   like there is at a product introduction thing.

02:20:05   And last year, there was none, right?

02:20:07   And the year before, they had a big one because of all

02:20:09   the new iPads and Macs.

02:20:10   Yeah, they had the thing with the iMac Pro, right?

02:20:14   Yeah.

02:20:15   And the 10.5-inch iPad was new at that.

02:20:17   Right, and we might get something

02:20:19   like that where there's a quote unquote "new Mac Pro,"

02:20:23   but behind Plexiglas.

02:20:25   Those were in cylinders, right? Like you walked out of the Moscone auditorium and there was like four of them in cylinders

02:20:30   Two that we were that were with the case on and to have the case off

02:20:34   Yeah, but they were definitely protected from the touch. Yeah

02:20:37   Well, anyway, good luck I hopefully maybe I'll sneak into your video or something like that totally see you on Monday

02:20:46   Yeah, good to hear from you. My thanks to our sponsors

02:20:48   Let's see if I can recall them off the top of my head despite my podcast amnesia

02:20:54   We had hello pillow

02:20:56   we had Linode where you can go to host your website and

02:21:01   LinkedIn where you can post your job offer and find the right person to hire so my thanks to them

02:21:08   My thanks to you Renee Richie. See you Monday. Thanks, John. See you Monday