The Talk Show

251: ‘Parking Meters in a Dirt Lot’ With Merlin Mann


00:00:00   I don't know what's wrong with me. I'm not, I'm not worried.

00:00:04   I'm concerned. Yeah, me too. I don't know.

00:00:08   I never had problems sleeping. Are we recording? How did last night go?

00:00:12   Terrible. Just John. Yeah. It's like I fall asleep and then it's like,

00:00:17   I just don't, don't, I don't know. Wake up. I got the sweats,

00:00:21   you know, it's ugly stuff.

00:00:23   What's your, you got, you got thoughts on sleeping?

00:00:29   Man, I got so many thoughts on sleeping.

00:00:32   Jeez.

00:00:34   I mean, let's be a doctor.

00:00:38   Has anything changed recently?

00:00:41   - I don't think so.

00:00:42   - Are you drinking way more or way less or just way more?

00:00:45   - Yeah, probably just way.

00:00:46   - Are you drinking like a lot, a lot, a lot more?

00:00:49   - Maybe, I don't know.

00:00:50   - Okay, all right. - Maybe that's a problem.

00:00:51   - That's probably unrelated.

00:00:53   They call it ruling out.

00:00:54   I just need to rule out alcohol,

00:00:55   and it sounds like that's not a factor.

00:00:58   I don't know. I'll tell you what I have. I have never, I don't,

00:01:02   I can't remember the last time I canceled a podcast. We were supposed to,

00:01:05   we were recording here on what is today? Friday, the May the 10th.

00:01:09   We were supposed to record yesterday. I had a beg off. I had a,

00:01:13   I had to pull up abort. I just like the, what the, the Cal Ripken, a podcast.

00:01:19   I know. What did I, when did I text you? I texted you in the morning, right?

00:01:22   Yeah. See, my problem is, I'll talk all you want about sleep.

00:01:27   I'm kind of an early riser now and I think I I don't know. I hope I didn't jostle you awake

00:01:31   Are you a DND man? You leave it? Oh, I'm a DND. I'm a DND man. That's huge that that's mark that one off the list

00:01:36   That is huge. Yeah, and you are you very I was here's me

00:01:39   like here's some ideas there's some stuff to talk about and

00:01:43   you know, I updated the document and he sounded like you were

00:01:47   Again, the medical term you were super out of it. I was under the weather. Yeah, I don't want to complain

00:01:54   You know what I mean? I don't want to I don't want to sit here and bring the listeners down that you know

00:01:57   people are people don't come on to the talk show for

00:02:00   to hear about a

00:02:03   sad story, but yeah, they will talk about what butterfly keys

00:02:07   Yeah, so people want to hear about a guy Rambo

00:02:13   Can I will tell you I I I'll talk about sleep a little I I would love John

00:02:19   I would love to talk about sleep and I have notes on this and I have an apple angle on this. I am extremely

00:02:25   Lucky and privileged that I'm just a natural sound sleeper. I sleep like a rock

00:02:33   I joke when I do the the Casper ad reads that I spend half my life in bed

00:02:38   It's not a joke. I sleep a lot. I sleep I sleep long. I sleep deep and I and I really I

00:02:45   I enjoy sleeping. I really do. I feel it's, you know, maybe the best part of the day.

00:02:50   I'll tell you what, when I, but, but not being able to sleep when you're like, I feel bad complaining

00:02:58   that I've had a week here where I feel a little bit under the weather and I'm not sleeping well.

00:03:01   Because some people I know don't sleep well, period. Right. Yeah. You know? So who am I to

00:03:09   spend 99% of my life sleeping like a rock and then the one week when, you know, not sleeping well.

00:03:15   - It's like what we say, what's the point of privilege

00:03:17   if you don't use it.

00:03:18   - Right, I don't know what to do.

00:03:19   I honest to God don't know what to do.

00:03:20   - So, okay, so let's do some diagnosis just quick

00:03:22   and we can get to the tech tips.

00:03:24   You're saying that for as long as you can remember,

00:03:27   you're a sound sleeper.

00:03:29   So to me that, okay, so that means

00:03:32   whatever whack ado time you do go to bed,

00:03:35   you don't have problems falling asleep.

00:03:37   I'm gonna give you an array.

00:03:38   You don't have problems falling asleep,

00:03:41   you don't have problems staying asleep.

00:03:44   And it sounds like you don't wake up in a panic

00:03:48   feeling unrefreshed.

00:03:49   - That is all true.

00:03:51   - Wow.

00:03:52   So you don't have, I mean, one of the things

00:03:55   people get wrong, insomnia's a lot like procrastination,

00:03:58   I think, where people really misunderstand

00:04:01   what's the cause, what's the effect.

00:04:03   I mean, and I don't wanna trigger anybody here,

00:04:04   like content warning, insomnia, but like,

00:04:08   one problem with insomnia is that true insomnia

00:04:10   is very, I think, very misunderstood

00:04:13   because you could be a person,

00:04:15   you notice I asked you, you know,

00:04:16   that array had three parts to it.

00:04:18   Some people are fine getting asleep.

00:04:19   Some people are fine staying asleep.

00:04:22   Some people are fine waking up feeling good.

00:04:24   And some people have one or more of those problems

00:04:27   that make their life unmanageable.

00:04:30   And for some people, if you do,

00:04:32   for whatever reason, medical, mental, emotional,

00:04:35   whatever it is, you get into insomnia,

00:04:38   a pattern can emerge that's harrowing, which is,

00:04:42   I mean, again, I don't want to trigger people,

00:04:44   but insomnia, the part that's misunderstood

00:04:46   is that you want to sleep.

00:04:47   You don't want to be up all night.

00:04:49   You started to dread the idea of going to sleep

00:04:52   because now you feel like you're never gonna fall asleep

00:04:55   and ask yourself whether that helps.

00:04:57   Again, like procrastination,

00:04:59   it's not a switch that you can flip.

00:05:01   But it sounds like historically,

00:05:02   you haven't suffered from that.

00:05:03   This is a recent thing.

00:05:05   God, I hope this isn't too boring.

00:05:07   But I think you say, so you're sitting here right now.

00:05:09   I'm gonna throw you in a sec.

00:05:11   You're sitting here right now, you're saying like,

00:05:12   oh gosh, who could sympathize with this boo-hoo?

00:05:15   Apple Boy gets to sleep whenever he wants.

00:05:18   But the truth is, people don't talk about this enough,

00:05:21   or when they do talk about it, it's always,

00:05:23   oh yeah, you know I really should be getting more sleep.

00:05:25   I'm here to tell you, man,

00:05:26   if you don't get your sleep wired right,

00:05:29   it has, the first day you'll feel an impact.

00:05:33   And then over the next days,

00:05:34   you might feel different impacts.

00:05:35   But if you do that over and over again,

00:05:38   it'll mess up pretty much everything.

00:05:40   Like the balance that your body wants,

00:05:42   you're gonna be kind of the equivalent.

00:05:44   You remember coming back from New Zealand

00:05:45   and it's like, whoa.

00:05:46   - Oh yeah.

00:05:47   - That was, going there was no problem.

00:05:49   It was the coming back that was brutal.

00:05:51   And you had an extra like eight hours on top of that.

00:05:54   But anyways, that's the thing is like,

00:05:55   I don't think you should feel bad about this.

00:05:57   And I think your listeners should be open to the idea that,

00:06:01   and I'm not saying you're gonna get a perfect sleep,

00:06:03   but the idea of improving the way you sleep,

00:06:05   it's so goddamn boring.

00:06:07   But like you, if you get this wired even a little bit,

00:06:11   your life improves like so quickly.

00:06:14   And when it goes wrong, you really notice.

00:06:16   - Yeah.

00:06:17   I'll tell you what, if you feel like me

00:06:20   nodding off here on the show, just reach out and slap me.

00:06:23   - Well, I'm the perfect guy for that.

00:06:25   You know, it just becomes like a kind of a dull hum,

00:06:27   like a West Coast hum.

00:06:28   (laughing)

00:06:30   - How are you?

00:06:33   - I'm doing great.

00:06:34   - How are you? - I'm doing great.

00:06:35   My sleep is pretty good.

00:06:36   I have Apple Watch apps that help me turn sleep into a video game and I feel pretty good for that.

00:06:41   Tell me about this. Tell me about this Apple angle in there.

00:06:43   Well, I mean, you know, do you really want to talk about that?

00:06:46   It's just gonna bore you. It's like when Dan and I talk about markdown and I can literally hear people deleting the episode.

00:06:51   Delete the loop.

00:06:52   We tried for a while because as you know, Jon, I'm real into markdown and when you talk about it, wow.

00:06:57   I mean, it's like apportionment or millage. It's one of those things where people just like,

00:07:04   "Ugh!" Even people who do it for a living hate it. But yeah, I'd love to because the

00:07:11   truth is, this journey started for me a while back because I have a lot of anxiety. And

00:07:15   I'm also getting older, and it became something where I kind of had to confront this. And

00:07:20   it's taken really years—well, first of all, I should have to say, step zero, like I said

00:07:24   to you yesterday, consider drugs. Like, the right kind of drugs. Like, there's drugs you

00:07:29   can get like maybe not Unisom because that has can really kick back at you. But yeah,

00:07:35   I mean, it's got to be said drugs help. But the journey for me like goes all the way back

00:07:40   to like when I first got a Fitbit. And the Fitbit, not the one, it wasn't the one that

00:07:46   has the little capsule in a sleeve. It was when the Fitbit got better kind of and it

00:07:51   started adding not just sleep tracking, but something I loved that was automatic sleep

00:07:57   tracking and that that was at the time virtually unheard of and I'm believing

00:08:01   I've tried them all I tried an old-school sleep watch in the mid like

00:08:04   in the aughts that look like a dive watch I've tried the now Apple own bed

00:08:08   it I've tried so many of these different things and so many of them involve some

00:08:12   kind of stupid contortion with a dingus and then remembering to turn it on and

00:08:17   off and all that kind of junk that wouldn't work for me because once I want

00:08:23   to go to sleep it's like I can't you know I can't be fussing around with the

00:08:27   thing and that yeah we're remembering it you know when you wake up or whatever I

00:08:32   mean yeah yeah it's got to be on you need something's gonna like take care of

00:08:35   that for you where like in a lot of this what do they call it self quantization

00:08:39   whatever you want to call it the like tracking of your stuff will only work

00:08:44   really work when it is to the greatest extent possible completely automatic or

00:08:52   you do not even have to look at the results. Most of us, if you try to eat healthier and

00:08:59   you get something like, what is it, MyFitnessBuddy or whatever, there's pretty good apps for

00:09:03   this and they got all the brand names, but you still got to remember to put it in and

00:09:07   get the portion right. And like my friend John Siracusa says, every time I have a reckon

00:09:11   about life, he's like, "Well, I'd love to see what would happen if some lady with a

00:09:15   clipboard was actually watching you to see how that actually went, rather than how you

00:09:18   think it went. So you don't have to guess with this. So Fitbit did two things. One was that it

00:09:23   did sleep tracking. The second one that was such a killer feature was automatic sleep tracking. It

00:09:28   could sense through a variety of biometric cues like when you were sleeping, are you still,

00:09:34   did your heartbeat go down, all that stuff. And that's what kicked off my real interest in

00:09:38   capturing this stuff. And now today, there are Apple Watch apps for this that I've whittled down

00:09:46   from about six different ones to two that I can really recommend and it kind of turns sleep into

00:09:52   a video game in a good way. It really encourages you to try and get high score and put your initials

00:09:56   up. Well what are the what are these apps now people are gonna you can't just leave people

00:10:01   hanging. People tell you about something you like people are gonna be dying people are dying to know

00:10:06   come on yeah yeah I mean forgive me I most of your listeners it's probably never heard anything

00:10:11   I've done but it's something I've talked about a lot there's and there's two apps that I really

00:10:14   I really recommend if you, okay.

00:10:15   So something I learned from underscore David Smith,

00:10:17   who has a sleep tracking app,

00:10:19   is that like, if you have an Apple watch,

00:10:21   you would be surprised if you choose to sleep

00:10:24   with an Apple watch on, it's less difficult than you think.

00:10:27   That, you know, especially as the batteries get better

00:10:29   and longer on the newer ones,

00:10:31   you can basically stay as you've probably discovered,

00:10:33   you can, did you wear an Apple watch right now, mostly?

00:10:36   Or you're like one of those fancy,

00:10:38   like a fancy Marco watch.

00:10:40   - Yeah, you know, I, you know.

00:10:43   Well this will work with pretty much all the watches.

00:10:46   I have an Apple Watch on right now.

00:10:48   So there's two that I like and can recommend and I think they cost money, shut up, it's

00:10:52   your health.

00:10:53   The one that I can really recommend to people who just want to see if this is going to work

00:10:56   for them and how this will work for them is a pretty drop dead easy app for Apple Watch

00:11:03   and your phone called Sleep Watch.

00:11:08   And I think, I don't know if I dropped the link in but I will, you can Google Sleep Watch.

00:11:12   Sleep watch is real simple.

00:11:15   It gives you a real simple return.

00:11:16   You basically look at it and it tracks a bunch of stuff.

00:11:19   All these apps track stuff.

00:11:20   They track slightly different stuff in slightly different ways.

00:11:24   But sleep watch will say like, okay, you know, you don't have to turn it on.

00:11:27   You don't have to turn it off.

00:11:28   Basically when you, you know, it's, it's sinking pretty much in the background.

00:11:33   And so the sleep watch app will just basically show you like, okay, here's where you were

00:11:37   in.

00:11:38   Here's where you were awake.

00:11:39   Here's where you were in light, sweet sleep.

00:11:41   where you're in deep sleep, but it also has really nice graphs to show you your progress

00:11:46   over time. Right? So it, it will show you, um, like how well you did with the basic stuff.

00:11:54   Like how long did you sleep? It'll show you stuff like, um, how much like quality sleep

00:11:58   did you get? And then it also gets into a really important stuff. Like did your heart

00:12:02   rate dip? Like for somebody like me, that's a big deal. And so, so a sleep watch is a

00:12:07   real straight forward one for what's that mean?

00:12:08   - I know that your heart rate dips.

00:12:09   I don't understand why is that a big deal?

00:12:11   - Part of getting good sleep, according to the apps

00:12:14   that I use, is to see, basically to see a delta

00:12:17   between what your heart rate is when you're awake

00:12:19   and what your heart rate is when you're asleep.

00:12:22   And as somebody who's been using these for years now,

00:12:24   I can tell you that if I got really bad sleep,

00:12:28   like say I'd had some drinks,

00:12:30   I can see that my heart rate did not go down very much.

00:12:35   And so even if you classic thing,

00:12:37   like, you know, whether it's snoring or apnea or whatever,

00:12:38   there's this stuff where you don't really know you're awake,

00:12:41   but maybe you were awake and you weren't aware of it.

00:12:44   Maybe your partner like mine gives you a little nudge.

00:12:48   If you're snoring.

00:12:49   - Yeah.

00:12:50   - So over time, it'll show you how that's doing.

00:12:52   It'll show you stuff like, you know,

00:12:53   how disrupted it was over time as a graphic.

00:12:57   So, you know, if you just want to try this out,

00:12:58   I would say, try, try Sleepwatch.

00:13:02   Is the, is the kind of like the, I think that's,

00:13:05   it's very good.

00:13:05   It's fine by itself, but I think it's the starter one

00:13:08   for this.

00:13:09   - And then what's the other one?

00:13:11   - It is called AutoSleep.

00:13:13   And I first heard about this,

00:13:14   I wanna say from Federica Vitici,

00:13:16   and I first tried it and it's a little bit,

00:13:21   gosh, it gives you results that look a little like something

00:13:24   like Picard would wanna look at on a screen.

00:13:27   You're like, what does this mean?

00:13:30   But like once you get used to their wackadoo interface,

00:13:32   once you have sort of calibrated it.

00:13:36   I won't go on about this, but I keep and use both

00:13:39   because it doesn't cost anything to keep them running.

00:13:41   And I get different views into the data from it.

00:13:43   And the reason I recommend it for you and your listeners,

00:13:45   if you choose to, is that it can really encourage,

00:13:49   you know, you're a competitive guy, you know?

00:13:51   You'll play a little blackjack once in a while.

00:13:53   - Yeah, sure, once in a while.

00:13:54   - You're a computer.

00:13:56   And if you're a computer,

00:13:57   you start competing with yourself a little bit.

00:13:59   Now, important proviso,

00:14:00   If stuff like this causes you stress and is generating anxiety you didn't have before,

00:14:05   then that's probably not a good fit. But you will, I think, over time find yourself, if

00:14:11   you start noticing the benefits of getting a little bit more, and importantly, better

00:14:15   sleep. Right? Like sleeping for 12 hours may not be the key to your success and health.

00:14:19   And yeah, so anyway, you pop it open, you look at it in the morning, you know, you take

00:14:24   a gentleman's visit in the morning, you look at your data and you go, "Oh yeah, that makes

00:14:28   That's that's how I slept last night. I don't know if that's good for you, but it seems like you could enjoy competing with yourself

00:14:33   You're a performer. Yeah, maybe I don't know. Yeah, it is something that's you know something to think about

00:14:38   You've got you know, we got these little computers strapped to our wrists all the time

00:14:42   I think that final thing on this unless you have a lot more I don't want to bore your thoughts

00:14:47   But final thing on this I think is interesting

00:14:49   Is that like like any kind of stuff like once you become a little bit of a spreadsheet nerd?

00:14:54   or like a smart home nerd,

00:14:56   or even like a basic background self quantization nerd,

00:15:00   you start to realize that,

00:15:01   I feel like it's valuable to capture this data,

00:15:06   even if I'm not sure what I'm gonna do with it right now.

00:15:08   Like it's not gonna hurt me to be able to run

00:15:12   a longitudinal mini study on myself

00:15:15   and see what stuff changes over time.

00:15:17   And there are actually apps that will help you find

00:15:19   those insights in very helpful ways.

00:15:21   I know for example, though, when my kid is not in school,

00:15:24   my step count for the day goes through the floor

00:15:26   because I'm not picking her up twice.

00:15:28   I'm picking her up and dropping her off every day.

00:15:29   But yeah, I don't know, it may not be for everybody.

00:15:32   And there's plenty of mostly good

00:15:34   and sometimes terrible advice about sleep.

00:15:36   You wanna get a dark room,

00:15:37   you wanna try and avoid screens at bedtime,

00:15:39   don't eat too late, there's all that kind of stuff.

00:15:41   You probably want your room cooler than you think you do.

00:15:44   That actually helps a lot.

00:15:46   Maybe don't drink a gallon of water or similar before bed.

00:15:49   But yeah, I'd love to, I don't know, man. I hope you find something that,

00:15:54   yeah, I'll try. I just feel like I got a bug. I'll be all right.

00:15:58   You think you might be a little sick, low end of the weather.

00:16:00   That's what I think. I think I'm a little under weather, but it's in a,

00:16:03   in a very hard to put my finger on it way. Like I wouldn't like to go,

00:16:07   I would not go to the doctor.

00:16:08   Like I'm not going to get off this podcast with you and then go see my,

00:16:11   my family physician. I wouldn't know what to tell her. You know what I mean?

00:16:15   Like I just, just, uh, I feel a little off, you know, what do you,

00:16:19   you can't go to the doctor and say you feel a little off.

00:16:21   No, you shouldn't go to the doctor at all. They're the worst doctors are terrible.

00:16:24   Well, I love all of this with an app. Yeah. I think now your son,

00:16:28   now your son's getting a little older. Uh,

00:16:30   we were actually as I prepped for this and talked to my daughter,

00:16:32   we were reminiscing about when, uh, your son and my daughter hung out, you know,

00:16:36   one time and she doesn't remember very well because she's, she's real little,

00:16:40   but you know, he's still a carrier, John. You're, you're aware of this, right?

00:16:43   Yes. Oh, of course. I mean, he's like, he's like,

00:16:45   he's like a germ sponge with a PlayStation. Like he, he's just,

00:16:48   he's just carrying illness into your house all the time.

00:16:51   Well, that was Amy's. Amy's, it was giving me a, you know,

00:16:55   I was trying to like drum up some sympathy and uh, and she was like, well,

00:16:59   how did you get sick? You haven't left the house all week,

00:17:02   but we've got the kid coming in and out. You know what I mean?

00:17:05   Like it's not like we're her medically sealed. I mean, uh, you know,

00:17:09   I don't have to leave the house for, for tick to catch a bug, you know?

00:17:13   No, the bug will come to you. Yeah. The bug will definitely come to me.

00:17:18   Please please follow up with me. I would love to I would love to be your asleep Sherpa. I

00:17:22   Got a question for you. Yeah a random question

00:17:27   Thinking about it. I took a nick out of my thumb the other day. Just a little little I got like this

00:17:33   Yeah, do you?

00:17:36   You like the Muji?

00:17:38   The Muji store. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Sure. That's about bargains in the Japanese style boy

00:17:44   yeah, so Muji if for those of you who don't know is

00:17:48   a Japanese, I don't even know what you would call it.

00:17:50   I was gonna say a stationary store

00:17:52   'cause that's what I tend to buy there,

00:17:53   but they also sell clothing

00:17:55   and have a sort of,

00:17:59   I know the word minimalist is overused,

00:18:02   but they have a genuine minimalist aesthetic.

00:18:05   They don't even put their logo on stuff.

00:18:07   It's all very plain.

00:18:09   Anyway, a couple years ago,

00:18:10   I bought this adorable little hand crank paper shredder.

00:18:15   - Oh, wow.

00:18:17   just it's like a little just like like a like a like a pasta maker for secrets. Yeah, something

00:18:22   like that. You can you know, and you know, I tried to put a whole it I I don't know why I did it. I

00:18:29   put a whole envelope like a credit card offer card offers. Yep. And it's not like enclosed. I wasn't

00:18:37   immediately wasn't shredding it because I felt like, hey, if I don't shred this, there's, you

00:18:42   know, something bad is going to happen. Somebody is going to steal my identity or take a credit

00:18:46   card money. I just, I just felt like, hey, this would be a fun thing to do is use my,

00:18:52   my paper shredder, right? Like a, like a fidget spinner. You know what I mean? Like something

00:18:56   to do with your hands. Took a Nick out of my thumb, twisting this thing around. So now I got

00:19:00   a bandaid on. I never really thought about I'm 46 years old. I have, I have strong feelings on bandaid.

00:19:06   Number one, I do believe that the bandaid brand is the superior brand of bandaid. I,

00:19:15   I feel like not just because you can get C3PO, the performance characteristics of the Band-Aid

00:19:21   brand adhesive bandage far outstripped out of a CVS or a Walgreens. That's sure it definitely

00:19:27   does. Right. And that's the only but those are like your only choices now. Remember there was

00:19:32   what was the other brand? It was like curate or something like that. Like when we were kids,

00:19:37   there was there was Yeah, right. They were they were like the I was about to say Numinos bad on

00:19:43   me. No, they but they were the yeah, the hydroxide to the Oreo. Right. Yeah. And and they, you

00:19:50   know, they they owned it, you know, they had like green box, you know, which doesn't really

00:19:55   scream first aid to me. You know, I mean, like bandaid owns that white box with the

00:19:59   red and blue and the red cross. But what's your favorite kind of band aid?

00:20:05   Oh, that's a really good question. Now, I'm tempted to say I like the more exotic

00:20:10   blends because it's one of the rare things in life where I've thought about the future

00:20:15   and prepared. Very, very rare. Which is that we get the big box with all the different

00:20:21   kinds in it. Now, I can see why somebody would like the bespoke, fancy, flying buttress fingertip

00:20:30   dingus. I see why people would.

00:20:32   - I know, the one that's like an H, right?

00:20:35   - It is, it's basically like a tie fighter for your finger.

00:20:38   I think somebody like a Tim Gunn would say

00:20:41   that seems a little bit overworked.

00:20:42   I like the classic, whatever that classic is,

00:20:45   that fabric, well, we get the fabric-y ones,

00:20:48   I like the fabric-y ones, that are, you know,

00:20:50   just what are they, probably two and a half inches across,

00:20:52   maybe half an inch wide, and I have good luck with those,

00:20:56   and I'll occasionally opt for, you know, the little guys,

00:21:01   It's a little classic mini sized.

00:21:03   Do you have a preference?

00:21:05   - I've always been partial to the flexible fabric.

00:21:08   That's what they call it.

00:21:09   It just feels luxurious.

00:21:11   You know what I mean?

00:21:12   Like it feels like you've really are pampering yourself

00:21:14   with a really nice bandaid.

00:21:15   - I mean, you're worth it.

00:21:18   And you're having a bad time.

00:21:20   You had an injury.

00:21:21   Like why would you deprive yourself of a little bit of luxe?

00:21:24   - But I do think,

00:21:25   here's the other thing I was thinking about though.

00:21:27   As I've been wearing a bandaid here on my thumb

00:21:29   for the last two days.

00:21:30   And who knows, maybe I've given myself tetanus.

00:21:32   Maybe that's the whole, maybe that's what's going on.

00:21:35   - Tetanus, yeah.

00:21:36   - And now I'm feeling my jaw.

00:21:37   Oh, all of a sudden it does feel a little tight.

00:21:41   - Could be rabies.

00:21:43   You might need shots in your stomach.

00:21:46   - Might have locked out, Merlin.

00:21:48   - That's bad in your racket.

00:21:50   - It is really bad.

00:21:52   This is, yeah, that is, that is,

00:21:55   it could be devastating.

00:21:56   - You're gonna have to do your shows like,

00:21:57   like Michael Corleone in the Italian restaurant.

00:21:59   I want. I want no more attempts on my father's life.

00:22:05   To do it like great. Kanye Kanye's first hit he had his jaw wired shut. This could be a whole new

00:22:12   thing. Or like Stephen Hawking and you know, do text to speech or something. I don't know. That's

00:22:19   come a long way for sure. If you get lock jaw Do you know anything about this? Now? I feel like

00:22:23   like I've got hypochondria is really the fundamental problem I've got. Yeah. Ah,

00:22:28   like you can beat it if you get lockjaw, you can beat it though. Right.

00:22:32   They just shoot you up with a something. Yeah.

00:22:37   Anti-inflammatories or something.

00:22:39   See, I don't know. I'm getting kind of confused because you know,

00:22:42   there was that whole range of like,

00:22:45   I don't know if you had these in the, in Philadelphia,

00:22:49   but like we had this whole rat king of like the things you're,

00:22:52   you don't want to get as a kid. And we've already called covered a couple of them. You

00:22:56   know, one of them is tetanus. You know, don't step on a board and get the tetanus. You don't

00:23:01   want to get rabies because then you're going to have to get shots in your stomach. Ringworm

00:23:06   I don't remember. See, I don't remember a ringworm. I'm rabies was a big one. They were

00:23:10   always telling me and not you know, if you ever saw a raccoon go the other way, you know?

00:23:14   Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. No, I I don't know a lot about lock jaw. I mean, but it sounds

00:23:21   like the kind of thing you think and maybe you go in there and they give you some kind

00:23:25   of some kind of soldier or super serum like directly into your jaw area and that gives

00:23:31   you local relief.

00:23:32   No, no, no, I'm guessing that they just give you like a what's it called? Like a penicillin?

00:23:38   What's it? antibiotic antibiotic? Yeah, I think you just take an antibiotic and then

00:23:43   it cures you right up. I don't know. I'm not even gonna Wikipedia it. I'm just well, I

00:23:47   normally don't, but I got to say, sometimes it's real fun because Google will have an

00:23:52   image that's associated with whatever the problem is. So you know, they don't have one

00:23:57   for lock jaw. I wonder if they went for ringworm. It'll be a person. It'll be like you go and

00:24:01   you look up, you know, he'll get depression and it's like a person sitting on a bed with

00:24:05   their head in their hands. You know, can I just tell you something? Yeah, please. You're

00:24:10   cheering me up. This is, no, I'm, I'm in better spirits. I think you're in worse shape than

00:24:15   you think? Well, I don't know. I think to say, no, I'm in good. But you know, I needed

00:24:19   this. I was real mopey. I tell you what, before we started this show, I was a mope. I have

00:24:24   no excuse. I've told you this before. It's come up with you many times before. My grandfather

00:24:29   was a coal miner. He went to work in a coal mine at the age of 14. He had a they they

00:24:34   go, let's start. They took him out, took him out of eighth grade and said, John, you got

00:24:41   go down the coal mine. No consumer math for you. Right. Get in the hole. And he died of black lung

00:24:49   disease. I mean like literally, I mean that it's a very well-named disease.

00:24:53   And I'm sitting here complaining, you know, about, you know, having a bit of the mopes,

00:25:00   you know. I feel terrible about it. Yeah, I mean that's the thing though, like if it's a thing that

00:25:05   you can fix with a band-aid, you know, you know. There's a thing I like to tell my daughter.

00:25:10   And I think it might be bullshit,

00:25:14   but there's a thing I like to tell my daughter

00:25:15   when she injures herself, which is, you know what, honey,

00:25:18   that's only gonna hurt super duper bad for about a minute,

00:25:23   and then it'll start getting less bad.

00:25:25   And if you cut off a little bit of your thumb,

00:25:29   just a tiny bit, not the amount of one of your usual

00:25:32   hand injuries, you cut off just a little bit, just the tip,

00:25:35   you're gonna be able to fix that

00:25:36   with a Band-Aid brand adhesive, right?

00:25:38   But then the stuff with your brain, John,

00:25:40   how you gonna fix your brain?

00:25:41   You know what I mean?

00:25:42   So that's ringworm of scalp and body.

00:25:46   - How do you get ringworm?

00:25:47   Do you know?

00:25:48   Are you Googling this right now?

00:25:49   I would like to know. - Of course I am.

00:25:51   Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:25:52   I feel like, oh, depression's not as good as I hoped.

00:25:55   The, yeah, ringworm, no, I'm not gonna look it up.

00:25:58   I'm gonna do it from what I remember.

00:26:01   I think ringworm, God, look at that.

00:26:03   It's a real red and puffy.

00:26:04   - Oh, God.

00:26:05   - They zoomed in with a call out.

00:26:07   - Where does it get you?

00:26:08   I don't even know. I've heard of it. She's got it on her arms, it looks like.

00:26:12   It's a skin disease, right?

00:26:13   I think I see it. It presents as a skin disease.

00:26:18   I don't know. Sin? Is it sin? Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. What,

00:26:22   what about impetigo? I bet they got a good picture for that. Anyway,

00:26:24   I just encourage your listeners. Oh, come on. Really? Oh no.

00:26:29   Oh, this poor boy.

00:26:30   He's eating a tortilla chip and he's got the impetigo. That's a shame.

00:26:35   There you go. Let me send that to you. Um, yeah,

00:26:38   So anytime you're worried about your disease, just, you know, get on Google and if you search

00:26:42   for it, you'll get to see what you would look like if you really had, oh, you're not eating

00:26:46   a tortilla chip.

00:26:47   You're good to go.

00:26:48   Oh yeah.

00:26:49   Look at that kid.

00:26:50   Oh man.

00:26:51   It's always around mouth and nose.

00:26:53   I don't know if we may not be able to, I may not put this in the show notes.

00:26:56   No, I think it's better that you don't.

00:26:57   Yeah.

00:26:58   Don't.

00:26:59   I'm going to recommend that people do not Google and Patigo.

00:27:01   Oh, there's, there's a lot of them, but I feel, I feel good too.

00:27:05   I'm, I'm glad we do this.

00:27:06   you want to wrap it up and get back to bed?

00:27:08   - Let's take a break and thank our first sponsor,

00:27:12   good friends at Eero, E-E-R-O.

00:27:17   These guys make Wi-Fi routers, right?

00:27:20   So you put the Wi-Fi in your house,

00:27:22   now you got internet in the air.

00:27:24   But guess what?

00:27:25   The old model of having one little box,

00:27:30   a base station, whatever you want to call it,

00:27:31   you hook it up to your cable modem

00:27:33   and you try to send Wi-Fi all through the whole house,

00:27:36   it doesn't work.

00:27:37   It is always dead spots.

00:27:39   If you've got like a roof deck or something like that,

00:27:40   you got like a garage,

00:27:41   maybe you can't get signal in there.

00:27:44   What you want is a mesh network.

00:27:46   And a mesh network is a way

00:27:48   that you set up multiple devices.

00:27:50   They talk to each other.

00:27:52   The Eero things, you don't have to set this up.

00:27:54   You don't do any of the work.

00:27:56   You just plug these things in,

00:27:57   you figure out how many you need,

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00:28:01   Use your, just calculate square footage of your house

00:28:04   or how many floors you have, something like that.

00:28:06   You get an Eero kit with a couple of these things.

00:28:11   You plug 'em in around the house.

00:28:13   They communicate with each other

00:28:14   and they saturate your whole house

00:28:17   with a nice strong WiFi signal.

00:28:20   Could not be easier to set up and manage.

00:28:23   You never have to do anything, really.

00:28:25   And the app is absolutely beautiful.

00:28:29   I don't know why.

00:28:31   I don't know why I do this. So good.

00:28:33   I turn on notifications for new devices and like,

00:28:37   like Jonas will maybe have like friends over after school and then he'll,

00:28:43   you know, like a gentleman that he is,

00:28:46   let them get on the wifi and I get a notification that there's a new apple

00:28:50   device on the wifi and then I can put in like a, you know,

00:28:54   his friend's name or something like that and I know who it is. Why do I do that?

00:28:57   I don't know. But I like I like knowing it. I don't know why. I have no idea why I find

00:29:03   it very satisfying to know when every time a new device is added to the network, but

00:29:08   I do. Could be easier. I open it up when I have no reason to use it. Sometimes I it's

00:29:13   like it's like if I play video games, it would be aero would be my game. Or I just open up

00:29:17   I go Yep, did the bandwidth test. Everything's looking good. I'm gonna send you a an image

00:29:22   I went in because I'm broken inside.

00:29:25   I went in and I named them all and gave them emoji.

00:29:29   (laughing)

00:29:30   - It's a lot of fun.

00:29:31   Hey, they both-- - It's a lot of fun

00:29:32   and it'll tell you, but have you done the thing

00:29:35   where you, 'cause you're a gentleman

00:29:37   and your kid's friend comes over.

00:29:38   Have you done the thing with the scan a little QR code

00:29:41   and it just gives them the guest password?

00:29:43   - I have, but sometimes it seems to me now with iOS,

00:29:48   you can, it happens from the iOS, right?

00:29:50   - Oh, that's true. - You know?

00:29:51   - Yeah. - Right.

00:29:52   - But you're right though, it's such a good app.

00:29:55   You and me, we came up at a time,

00:29:57   let's go back in the day.

00:29:58   You buy yourself a mouse, you buy yourself

00:30:00   some kind of fancy SCSI device, whatever it is,

00:30:03   and it comes with a compact disc

00:30:05   that has something called a driver on it.

00:30:06   And of course it's a horrible port,

00:30:08   like it just works like garbage, it's just nonsense.

00:30:11   And it's literally excruciating pain to have to use that.

00:30:15   Oh, your monitor doesn't understand your cord anymore.

00:30:18   Like you lose, and like, your is not like that.

00:30:21   The app is the thing.

00:30:23   The app is smart.

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00:30:26   If you got that Eero Plus,

00:30:28   you can do all kinds of good stuff.

00:30:29   They do the thing now where they got the band.

00:30:32   I don't know what it's called, I forget what it's called,

00:30:33   but they got the thing where like,

00:30:34   hey, if you can do five gigahertz,

00:30:36   we'll remember you can do five gigahertz,

00:30:38   put you in the right place.

00:30:40   It'll even like soften the blow of moving between devices

00:30:43   so you don't get, like if you're running something 4K

00:30:45   on your device, it won't mess you up.

00:30:47   It's a really good service.

00:30:48   It's a change to our game.

00:30:49   - I was gonna tell you about this Eero Plus.

00:30:51   So Eero Plus is their add-on service. It's like a subscription thing. What do you get?

00:30:55   They want me to tell you, you get advanced security. You can block ads right at the router

00:31:00   level if that's what you want to do. But all sorts of security stuff, VPN protection

00:31:07   from encrypt.me. That's included when you sign up for Eero Plus. They include password

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00:31:19   of the cream of the crop for password management cross platform. All sorts of great stuff when

00:31:24   you sign up for Euro plus. So here's here's what they want me to tell you to do. What

00:31:30   you want to do, go to euro.com you get $100 off the Euro base unit and two beacons package

00:31:39   with one year of Euro plus by visiting euro.com slash the talk show. They include the the

00:31:47   You wrote it right. They got it right. You wrote.com/the talk show.

00:31:50   And then at checkout you just enter that same code, the talk show,

00:31:56   you'll save a hundred bucks and two beacons and a base station is a good, uh,

00:32:01   that's a good setup kit. The beacons are the little, uh,

00:32:04   nightlight type things. Love them. Good company.

00:32:08   Anyway, my thanks to era. Uh,

00:32:11   here's a, here's the, here's the image. The last thing,

00:32:13   Here's the image for obsessive compulsive disorder.

00:32:17   And that's a very organized blonde.

00:32:21   It's a lady lining stuff up.

00:32:28   She's got that beautiful big screen.

00:32:31   She's living in some kind of like a Sims world, I think.

00:32:36   I could be over there trolling to forums with her big monitor, but she's not.

00:32:40   She's lining up paint chips or swatches.

00:32:43   She's got all of her medicine or the pathics. I don't think she's really there.

00:32:46   I think that's, she's like photoshopped in. Oh man. Do you know what?

00:32:50   You know, the world is changing Marlon. And I think for the better, and you know,

00:32:55   it sounds like an odd thing to say. I mean,

00:32:57   you and I did a show a couple of years ago.

00:32:59   Do you remember there was the election, the election,

00:33:04   an election like the local thing, the presidential thing where,

00:33:07   Oh, that old thing. I think we agreed everything's going to be fine. Didn't we?

00:33:11   Yeah, it is the take away. It is funny in light of all of that, the continuing saga

00:33:20   of that, the whole thing. It's an odd thing to say, but the world is still it. You know,

00:33:27   it's getting to be a better place. I feel like we as a society are conscious of things

00:33:32   that when we were kids, like in the 70s, you just didn't, you did, you just weren't conscious

00:33:38   of it. You know, it's just it's utterly unrecognizable. A week before last last week, my kids at their

00:33:46   school, they had their annual LGBTQ Pride parade and all the classes dress as a different

00:33:51   color of the rainbow and they have a parade. Oh, that's beautiful. And I'm taking pictures

00:33:55   because I'm like, this is this doesn't seem real to me. But can you even imagine like,

00:33:59   I mean, what is this? Was she in like eighth grade, seventh grade? No, she's a she's about

00:34:05   She did a post-grad year, now fifth grade.

00:34:08   - Fifth grade, all right.

00:34:10   - Moving on to the big leagues next time.

00:34:11   - Can you imagine that, being in fifth grade

00:34:13   and having a LGBTQ,

00:34:16   just even acknowledging that that was a thing?

00:34:20   It just wouldn't happen.

00:34:22   - John, they have posters and stuff.

00:34:23   Like it's an official thing.

00:34:25   - My son's school, the club, is called GLOW.

00:34:30   I love it.

00:34:31   I feel it's a better acronym.

00:34:32   It's gay, lesbian, or whatever.

00:34:35   Oh, you know what? I'm geez. Here we go. We had this conversation already. Dang it. Did we? Yes.

00:34:39   Yes. But it's just true for lots of things. Even if not everything. The Overton window is moving. Thank

00:34:44   God. And there's just a bunch of stuff or something that seemed not even possible. It's bad, John. No,

00:34:49   it's bad. This is bad. What about bananas? You ever notice how you get your notice how you get banana

00:34:53   and like you have like a window for like, it's really small for eating it. You ever think about

00:34:57   that?

00:34:58   Hey, she canceled this show.

00:35:03   Did you buy bananas that are ready to eat or you buy them green and let them ripen at

00:35:08   home?

00:35:09   What do you do?

00:35:11   My wife is in charge of bananas.

00:35:15   And because I don't eat most things that have, you know, non-mammals.

00:35:21   I don't eat, you know, fruit that doesn't cast a shadow.

00:35:24   So she's vice president in charge of bananas.

00:35:28   And so it's really up to her.

00:35:31   I'll tell you what she does do, which is awesome, is that the ones that have gone brown, she

00:35:35   keeps in a very fragrant pantry for the notion of future banana bread.

00:35:41   So that's a refreshing smell.

00:35:43   What do you, give me an update.

00:35:45   What do you like?

00:35:46   I like to buy them as ready to eat as possible.

00:35:51   I don't have a lot of patience.

00:35:53   So like if I'm at the store and the mood hits me that, hey, you know what would be good?

00:35:59   You know what?

00:36:00   I like bananas. They're good, right? And it's a it's a great kid, but a banana can be a delicious

00:36:06   treat. It's a delicious treat. It's a great way to start the day. It's a good breakfast. It's,

00:36:10   you know, but then I immediately think, well, I would like to start eating them as soon as I

00:36:15   possibly can. So these green ones are no good. Where? Give me you know, give me something that's

00:36:20   closer to being edible. Yeah. Well, I think you're also being I was gonna say realistic. I don't know

00:36:28   I don't know if that's the right word, but I think one of the problems, they would say,

00:36:31   "Oh, don't go shopping when you're hungry." Well, I think that actually makes a ton of

00:36:33   sense in some ways, especially if you're a monster like me and you want food that you

00:36:37   enjoy. I mean, I'm not going to have a bunch of, I don't know what, millet.

00:36:41   Right. That's like saying don't go to sleep when you're tired. You know what I mean?

00:36:45   It's exactly like that. It's exactly like that. So yeah, I mean, there's something realistic

00:36:50   about saying, "Oh, I'll enjoy these bananas in the future." Oh, you know, I'm so sorry

00:36:54   We've talked about this also peaches. They still this is years ago. We had the banana episode and they still haven't fixed peaches

00:37:00   I'm not a culture with the bananas not a fan of the peach you like a plum. Yeah, I love a plum

00:37:05   Yeah, you just insert that entire one hour segment right here and we just save everybody a lot of time

00:37:11   I do love a plum but I tell you what though a plum has got to be ripe, you know, mm-hmm

00:37:15   like I

00:37:18   Good plum though. That's that's that's eaten but the world's getting better you say? Yeah, I think so

00:37:24   I think because the kids I think the kids have it I

00:37:27   saw today I woke up today and

00:37:30   one of the

00:37:33   It's I get you know, I told you I'm not feeling that well

00:37:36   I even there should be a way to tell your phone. I'm not I'm not feeling well. Don't show me news

00:37:41   You know, I mean like I don't see the night

00:37:43   Yes, like I feel like I need my constitution to be able to keep keep up with this

00:37:48   But I tell your phone you say hey dingus. I need a sick day from then

00:37:52   Yeah, I need a sick day from the news. Just don't just don't tell me any news.

00:37:55   Because I saw this story and you know,

00:37:58   it's Trump, what are we going to do? But I saw this thing where he he wants to put Bible classes

00:38:06   into public schools. Do you see this? No.

00:38:10   He wants to put Bible study classes. He's practically a monk. So

00:38:16   but isn't that the Trumpiest thing? I don't want to you know, we're not going to go off on a whole

00:38:21   political rant here. This is no, no, no, no. The Trumpiest thing is that golf article,

00:38:25   which you should definitely read. Oh, the one where each about him had cheated. He's

00:38:28   basically are at gold finger. Yeah, he's totally golfing. That's exactly why I kept waiting

00:38:33   for them to say, you're the president's ball. No, it's in the water. It falls out of his

00:38:42   pants. Well, the funny thing is Amy told me about the story about him cheating at golf

00:38:47   and I've got the book. I haven't, I haven't really read the book. I read the article,

00:38:50   have the book. What's it called? Commander and Cheat. It's a, you know, Rick Riley is the writer.

00:38:56   Yeah. Guess I should put it in the show notes. But you ever played golf? You ever played,

00:38:59   you probably never played golf. In junior high, I had the unhappy accident of moving to Florida

00:39:04   with my godforsaken stepfather, and he was running a restaurant at a country club. So

00:39:09   I had occasion to play an actual game of according to oil golf once, but I do like, I like a driving

00:39:15   range. Yeah, no, no, no, it seemed it's the definition of like, frustrating to me. I'm

00:39:20   not trying to be that guy. But like, it just the amount of like control, I don't have power,

00:39:26   I don't have and patience I don't have. makes it exactly not my copy. Well, anyway, that's Amy's

00:39:32   telling me the story. And I just trying to get engaged. I know, I know most of the most of the

00:39:37   rules and stuff. And I know it's a very courtly game. He's playing he's playing golf with somebody

00:39:41   And the guy is his playing partner is like 220 yards away from the green. That's that's long, right?

00:39:48   That's what I'm trying to get at here is to get a sense of how far 220 yards is

00:39:53   I know if I know from from we we golf that that's that that's a long way

00:39:56   That's probably you're gonna use well, you use like a three on that probably

00:39:59   Yeah, I got three wood or something, you know, it's practically like, you know, gotta hit a drive

00:40:03   This guy hits the shot of his life uphill

00:40:06   It's a par five. So he's on the green and two he's gonna be putting for Eagle Wow uphill

00:40:12   Guy gets up there and his ball is nowhere to be found and he's looking around

00:40:17   He's looking around and then there it is over in the bunker

00:40:21   Off to this left of the green and he was like son of a bitch

00:40:25   I would that ball was it was the greatest shot I ever hid in my life. It was right at the flag

00:40:29   Uphill it had how could this happen and he you know finishes the round and then at the end of the round Trump's caddy

00:40:36   actually comes over to him and says, Look, I almost know I never do this, but I got to

00:40:40   tell you, he got up there and threw your ball in the bunker. And it's a hell of a story.

00:40:47   Like he literally Trump got up there on the green first picked up the guy's ball and threw

00:40:51   it in the bunker. But here's the thing that Amy didn't convey to me. She told me this

00:40:57   story. I was like, I got to read this story. I got to read this book. This is going to

00:41:00   great. The guy who had happened to was Mike Torico, the ESPN. He's a commentator on ESPN.

00:41:07   Like he's real famous. He's like a famous ESPN guy. Trump threw his ball and right in the bunker.

00:41:13   And like just thinking like he would notice or he wouldn't say anything.

00:41:18   I think I think the brilliance of this, the way that this idea that you can

00:41:25   everything you need to know about the guy is that he cheats at golf. It all plays out from there.

00:41:31   The basic story is that, yeah, he just expects people not to. This is not something people do.

00:41:37   People don't just pick up golf balls. If you're first on the green, you don't kick the guy's ball

00:41:42   into the bunker or something. It just isn't done. But why isn't it done? Because that's just not.

00:41:49   Yeah, like it's like mutual mutual respect for the game. I'm not obviously I'm not a golfer

00:41:53   But people but people have that respect for the game something

00:41:57   My friend that I do a show with do by Friday

00:42:00   My friend max tempkin said something probably two years ago and I'm now max you and your observations

00:42:05   But you know, he pointed out I think was maybe when the Manafort stuff was heating up

00:42:09   But he said the reason it's so hard to get a bead one read one of the reasons one of the myriad reasons

00:42:14   It's hard to get a bead on this stuff

00:42:16   is because it so shocks the imagination how many of the people in this administration

00:42:22   are obsessed with impossibly small and petty grifts. And like when you put the petty grifts

00:42:27   together, it looks like a big thing. But when you actually sort of analyze it and break it down,

00:42:33   it's like ostrich suits and golf cheating all the way down. It's all the smallest. Like any

00:42:40   grown person would not grift at the level they're grifting. Certainly because they just think it's

00:42:45   it's maybe not the right thing to do, but also you're just like, wow, you just, you

00:42:50   just, you just want to mop up every nickel. I mean, there was a Chris Hayes had a story

00:42:53   about when his band Chris Hayes from MSNBC, I forget this, right. You ever hear this yet?

00:42:57   His band had a CD in like a, uh, uh, like a music store in a Trump building and they

00:43:04   were trying to negotiate a cut of every, like aside from the retail part, they wanted a

00:43:09   cut of every CD that was sold there just to eat and possibly pointless. And of course

00:43:15   You got to go back to the spy thing and the 13 cent check but like there's no grift too small and that's what beggars the

00:43:21   imagination

00:43:23   He's got he's he's the he's the good golf boy

00:43:26   He's you can go and find all the plaques or just you know, he's always salesman of the month

00:43:31   Like he's the champion for all the things. Yeah, that's the other thing from the book

00:43:36   One of the other stories is how many of his clubs?

00:43:41   He's the club champion at like how many how many club championships he's won and it includes

00:43:47   It includes one of his golf courses

00:43:49   He's listed as like the 1991 Club Champion and the course didn't even open till 1992 and then so they looked into it

00:43:57   They looked into it and right and they actually it's the rare instance of the whole thing being explained

00:44:05   honestly and openly which was that a spokesperson said that Trump played a

00:44:11   Like a practice round before the course was open, what would you call it a like a test round?

00:44:17   Yeah, like, you know, let's let's see how this course is to test out the new course, right?

00:44:21   So what the club wasn't open yet?

00:44:23   clubs playing with three of his buddies to foursome months before the club even opens and

00:44:28   then afterwards he declared that that was the club championship because he had a

00:44:33   He had a good round of golf. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. You hear the stories about that?

00:44:40   I don't know if it's apocryphal, but the story about

00:44:42   dollar sign Eastern European dictator, I think it was Ceausescu, and how he had anticipated a drive down a long beautiful Boulevard full of

00:44:51   trees that were full of fruit and at least in the story in the telling a

00:44:56   lot of the the locals the peasants and the collectives were charged with

00:45:02   basically like taping fruit into the tree where he could see it. Like some serious Adam

00:45:08   Curtis level stuff. But yeah, you want it to be you want to be something bigger. Like,

00:45:17   yeah, this is weird part of you. The acceleration is part of this is like, Oh, yeah, let's like

00:45:21   figure out what the big thing is. And it's like, no, it's just, it's just like, you know,

00:45:25   he, you know, he goes to Chili's too, at the airport and wants extra napkins and then sues

00:45:31   them for 10 billion dollars because they owe him napkins. Don't get me started on the Deutsche

00:45:36   Bank thing. It's killing me. But the world's getting better for sure.

00:45:40   You ever been to a Chili's 2? You know, I've, you know what, I've not gone

00:45:45   by design to a Chili's 2 because I don't like Chili's Prime, Chili's Actual. And then I

00:45:50   feel like I'm not sure I want the less good version of the thing I don't like. But am

00:45:54   I being, is that racist of me? Should I try it?

00:45:59   I don't know. Is there a Chili's to you get microwave fries or what? I don't know. I haven't

00:46:03   been to one in a long time. But I always enjoy the name every time I see a Chili's to and

00:46:08   inevitably it is in an airport. Right? I think that's your grab and go right? If you're not

00:46:12   up for a $9 Wolfgang Puck triangle of sandwich, you could go to Chili's to

00:46:17   Chili's was the when I was at Drexel University back in the 90s was the nicest restaurant

00:46:25   in university city and over there yeah that would be that would be like if you really wanted to take

00:46:31   your uh like your special friend out you know like a get like a uh you know somebody really

00:46:37   want to impress you take them to chilies was that in the era of the baby back ribs i believe it was

00:46:43   i believe it was and fajitas i'm always just to get the i know they're smart yeah the fajitas yeah

00:46:48   yeah half chicken half steak half chicken they'll just do that for you yeah they'll just do that for

00:46:54   for you. That sizzle, you're selling the sizzle, not the steak. You know what I mean? They

00:46:58   say I've heard it, I've heard it said on some turns out podcast, but that was the whole

00:47:02   idea. It's the sizzling. People hear that. Apparently the whole, might've been in this

00:47:06   American life, whole place lights up, lights up. People are, it's uncontrollable. It's

00:47:10   like some kind of a, like a brain virus hits everybody when they hear like sizzling meat

00:47:15   and then they're, they're like, they're already making the orders cause they know how much

00:47:19   now I don't know. See now here's where you get into the science. I don't know if that's

00:47:22   because that's the nature of people who could chilies that, you know,

00:47:26   they get the Pavlovian chicken effect.

00:47:28   I don't think that I bet at the chilies too, at the airport,

00:47:31   you don't really get that hot sizzle. There's no way microwave don't sizzle.

00:47:35   Yeah. Microwave doesn't sizzle. You know, and when you think about it,

00:47:38   when you really do think about that, that fajita plate,

00:47:40   that it seems like something a lawyer should look into, you know,

00:47:45   like should they really be delivering a 500 degree plate, right?

00:47:50   God, I never thought of that. You're absolutely. I mean,

00:47:52   and they already give you a knife.

00:47:54   - Yeah, it doesn't.

00:47:55   - Yeah, now they're gonna give you,

00:47:57   they're gonna give you, it's basically,

00:47:59   it's a lawsuit with meat.

00:48:01   That's just you just waiting for that.

00:48:02   And then they say, what did they say?

00:48:03   They say the thing everybody always says,

00:48:05   there's two parts to this.

00:48:06   They always say, don't touch the plate, it's extremely hot.

00:48:10   And so what do you do?

00:48:12   I always touch the plate.

00:48:13   - I always touch the handle.

00:48:14   - I should bring band-aids when I go to Chili's.

00:48:17   - Right, I'll use like my left pinky finger.

00:48:19   You know what I mean?

00:48:20   'Cause who cares?

00:48:20   If I get a burn on the left pinky finger,

00:48:22   I'll be all right

00:48:24   Yeah, you're gonna take your Z's more slowly

00:48:26   You got to play hurt that's the thing when you're racket man you got play hurt got a player what I mean

00:48:34   You're tired. You're tired. You got a Chili's burn. You got it. You got to play through the pain man

00:48:38   Doesn't Chili's or what are they famous for it did margaritas today margaritas?

00:48:44   Is it a Mexican place? What is the theme of Chili's now? I'm thinking about this now that I'm thinking about it

00:48:51   I've been to Chili's many times, but not in decades, right?

00:48:56   Like I'm talking 25 years ago.

00:48:59   - Oh yeah, easy, easy.

00:49:01   Like a sit down in the parking lot of the mall, Chili's,

00:49:05   you went in, usually 'cause you have to,

00:49:08   'cause you're with a group that wants to go to Chili's,

00:49:10   you go in there, I'm with you.

00:49:13   I feel like it's one of those restaurants

00:49:15   that has 1400 items on the menu,

00:49:18   but they're all some like slight variation

00:49:20   on like appetizers for the table, but I could be wrong.

00:49:23   - Do they, I mean, what do they call it?

00:49:25   Did I call it Tex-Mex?

00:49:26   Is that what they call it?

00:49:27   - I don't know if they could do that for like legal reasons.

00:49:30   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:49:32   - I think of that and I mean like, you know,

00:49:35   but you're right, I mean, this is the thing.

00:49:36   And you see this when you travel

00:49:37   and I'm not gonna say this in a nasty way,

00:49:39   but like when you travel, like you and I live in places

00:49:41   where like you can go and get stuff,

00:49:41   you can go and get you a hoagie,

00:49:43   like that's probably gonna be real good

00:49:44   with the oil and everything.

00:49:46   And it smells like an eighth grader,

00:49:47   Which is how you know it's a good hoagie.

00:49:49   It should smell like an eighth grader

00:49:52   that hasn't gotten the talk yet.

00:49:54   That's what, if your hoagie doesn't smell like that,

00:49:56   it's a sub and I don't want any of it.

00:49:58   I can go out, I go two blocks from here, don't be creepy.

00:50:00   I go get me a burrito.

00:50:01   I get me a big ass burrito.

00:50:03   But then when I travel, I'm just like,

00:50:04   "Oh, what is the thing nearest by

00:50:07   "that will give me comfort so I can just sit in a bathtub

00:50:10   "and watch Bob's Burgers in the mirror?"

00:50:12   Like I just need something, something, anything.

00:50:15   And that's when I feel like I'm stuck in those situations.

00:50:18   And then I over order a bunch of food that I don't want.

00:50:22   You know what I mean?

00:50:23   Maybe I can not see like an Outback.

00:50:24   I can fuck with an Outback.

00:50:26   I don't hate Outback.

00:50:29   - I have not been to an Outback in a number of years,

00:50:31   but I would, in a pinch,

00:50:32   I would go to an Outback in a second.

00:50:34   - I think people like, I think people like,

00:50:36   this goes back to what?

00:50:39   I feel like there's this thing,

00:50:40   and I don't know if you had these where you were,

00:50:43   but there was that trend in,

00:50:45   I'm gonna say the '70s, I'm gonna talk about my ass

00:50:47   for a minute, like I feel like there's this trend

00:50:48   of like places that probably like used to be a pickup bar,

00:50:52   and they got the brass railings,

00:50:53   and they're playing Steely Dan's Asia,

00:50:55   and you go in there, and instead of finding it fast handy,

00:51:00   it's gonna be like happy hours and specialty drinks,

00:51:04   and you know what I'm saying?

00:51:05   And like those kinds of places,

00:51:06   then that led to like what, Bennigan's.

00:51:09   That led to that, all these different chains

00:51:11   of like the brass railing of restaurants

00:51:14   with the ferns and stuff like that.

00:51:16   And then I kind of feel like--

00:51:17   - 'Cause what you're saying is that the originals

00:51:20   were legit establishments,

00:51:22   where there was an actual restaurateur,

00:51:24   somebody who cared. - I think so.

00:51:25   - Somebody cared.

00:51:27   - Oh, absolutely.

00:51:29   And then, yeah.

00:51:30   - And they just wanted you to be comfortable.

00:51:31   They wanted, you know, like a dark wood atmosphere.

00:51:36   Put some-- - Dark wood,

00:51:37   and just get in on that sweet, sweet '70s horny market.

00:51:39   Like, be able to get in there and like,

00:51:42   you know, happy hours used to be a huge thing,

00:51:43   even into the 80s, do you remember happy hours?

00:51:46   - Oh yeah.

00:51:47   - I mean, they still say happy hour

00:51:48   and it's like whatever, two for one beers.

00:51:50   But back then, they would have like a buffet.

00:51:53   You could go, you could go.

00:51:55   You know, you're absolutely right.

00:51:57   I mean, I don't know how that spawns a chain

00:51:58   of like 800 restaurants or whatever, but that's the problem.

00:52:02   And this is where I don't wanna sound like a jerk,

00:52:04   but like San Francisco, where I live,

00:52:06   actually has laws about this.

00:52:09   They have, I forget the name of it.

00:52:11   I heard Planet Money about this,

00:52:13   and dealing with the blight of dollar stores

00:52:16   and the horrible tangled mess of like,

00:52:18   no shade, no lemonade,

00:52:20   but dollar stores have kind of taken over.

00:52:22   They've pushed out.

00:52:23   It's kind of like how Walmart was 20 years ago,

00:52:25   where like it's very difficult to start

00:52:29   and especially sustain a grocery store

00:52:31   in a lot of urban and suburban areas, right?

00:52:35   And so, yeah, now there's places

00:52:36   that are getting these San Francisco style laws

00:52:39   that are like, here's a hard limit

00:52:41   on the number of locations for this kind of store

00:52:45   or restaurant that you can have.

00:52:48   But a lot of places, that's what there is.

00:52:51   Like it's gonna be Applebee's or it's gonna be,

00:52:54   I say Jardin de L'Eve,

00:52:56   but you're gonna have an Olive Garden.

00:52:58   You know what I'm saying?

00:52:59   Those kinds of things.

00:53:01   And that's like where you can go.

00:53:02   And then Subway, so many Subways.

00:53:04   - Isn't Subway the number one franchise in the world?

00:53:09   Like they remember it was like a thing

00:53:13   when they got close to McDonald's,

00:53:14   but then they just soared right past McDonald's

00:53:17   'cause they'll put a subway anywhere.

00:53:19   - Yeah, they fit into a lot of places

00:53:21   and then they tend to stay there, yeah.

00:53:23   Yeah, no, you know what? - If you've got

00:53:25   a weird retail spot, I mean like a really weird,

00:53:28   I'm talking like a triangle-shaped building, right?

00:53:31   Like really weird square footage and you think,

00:53:34   well, what could you possibly do here?

00:53:35   You can make a subway.

00:53:37   - Oh, sweet Maui onion.

00:53:41   I'm looking at a letter article here in the,

00:53:44   it's just the first thing I found on Google,

00:53:46   top franchise businesses.

00:53:50   And they're telling me Subway's number one.

00:53:53   - Yeah, I think it's number one.

00:53:55   Remember the Boston Market?

00:53:56   - It used to be kind of a treat.

00:53:57   It was one of those things for me,

00:53:58   like this is gonna sound monkey balls,

00:53:59   but like, do you remember like a time

00:54:01   when KFC was a treat?

00:54:02   Like Taco Bell was a treat and Subway was a treat.

00:54:07   My friends and I used to drive to like,

00:54:09   when we go buy our records in Tampa, like 45 miles away,

00:54:12   like we would always stop at Taco Bell.

00:54:14   Like it was a big deal.

00:54:15   They had nachos and cheese, man.

00:54:16   They just give it to you.

00:54:18   - We had a weird restaurant growing up

00:54:20   in Redding, Pennsylvania.

00:54:23   It was called Genos, G-I-N-O-S, fast food.

00:54:27   And it was, I haven't Googled this.

00:54:29   I should, maybe I should look it up

00:54:30   and see if I'm completely misremembering,

00:54:33   but it was somehow affiliated with Kentucky Fried Chicken

00:54:37   because you could go into Geno's

00:54:40   and you could get Kentucky Fried Chicken

00:54:43   and it would say KFC, it had a picture of the kernel on it,

00:54:47   tasted good, but you could also at Geno's,

00:54:50   you could get like a hamburger.

00:54:53   So it was like-- - Oh my God.

00:54:55   - Yeah, did you ever hear of this?

00:54:56   - I'm looking at it right now, it's a thing.

00:54:58   - Yeah.

00:54:59   - He had Geno's burgers and chicken

00:55:01   and they had some kind of arch affiliation with KFC.

00:55:05   That's so weird.

00:55:07   And that was like when you were like,

00:55:08   what, like a teen that happened?

00:55:10   - Oh no, I was probably about six years old.

00:55:12   This is, we're talking late seventies.

00:55:13   - Okay. - Right around, you know,

00:55:14   right around like Reagan getting into office.

00:55:17   - Okay, all right. - Right?

00:55:19   Yeah, and that would be, like you said, a treat.

00:55:22   We'd go there like once a week or something like that.

00:55:25   - And now listen, don't spoil the joke

00:55:27   by guessing too high, but give me your reckon

00:55:29   on how many subways there are.

00:55:32   - Worldwide?

00:55:36   Is it, is it? - Yes.

00:55:37   - I'm gonna say 8,000.

00:55:41   - Okay, that's a really good guess.

00:55:42   Well, they're in 112 countries.

00:55:44   There are 42,431 subways.

00:55:47   (laughing)

00:55:48   - 42,000.

00:55:49   - 42, 42, 42,000.

00:55:51   I bet some are better than others.

00:55:52   I bet some are cleaner than others,

00:55:54   but they all have that cheese

00:55:56   that's like a child's color form game from the '70s.

00:55:59   You want cheese on that?

00:56:00   They can hear, you can hear the air quotes on it.

00:56:03   Oh my God.

00:56:04   - This talk has been a bomb to my soul, Marlon.

00:56:07   - Really?

00:56:08   - Yeah, it really is.

00:56:09   - We haven't talked about any of your technology head.

00:56:11   - Do I feel, do I sound like I'm lightheaded?

00:56:14   - Do you sound like you're lightheaded?

00:56:18   - 'Cause I feel like I could use it.

00:56:19   - John, I've spent some time,

00:56:20   I've heard you being a lot more lightheaded.

00:56:22   I think you're doing great.

00:56:23   - I just feel like I can maybe take a nap.

00:56:25   - Why don't you give yourself that gift?

00:56:29   You know what I'm saying?

00:56:30   You've earned it.

00:56:31   Do you know how hard it is to podcast?

00:56:32   You know how much, how difficult it is

00:56:34   to pay attention to another white man

00:56:35   for up to seven hours for one of your shows?

00:56:37   That's a lot of work.

00:56:38   You gotta write things down.

00:56:41   You gotta Google Subway.

00:56:43   - I had this, Eric, look, I'm catching up here.

00:56:45   I've got the, I keep making notes.

00:56:48   'Cause you keep, you know, it's hard to keep up with you.

00:56:50   I will say this.

00:56:51   You always put me on my A game.

00:56:53   - No. - No, but you think, see--

00:56:55   - Now you sound a little lightheaded.

00:56:57   - Yeah, but one of the big differences

00:56:58   between me and you is you think fast and talk fast

00:57:02   and I think slow and talk slow famously.

00:57:04   I mean, I can't tell you how many times I get emails

00:57:07   from people who say, thank God for Overcast

00:57:10   with the smart speed speech feature

00:57:12   because I would never be able to listen to your show

00:57:14   because I'm a slow talker, I just am.

00:57:17   - But you're a deep thinker.

00:57:18   - Well, all I wanted to say--

00:57:20   - I'm like a puddle the size of the Atlantic Ocean.

00:57:24   - I wanted to go back.

00:57:25   - You just stomp around in me till you're done.

00:57:27   Did you know that happy hour, we were talking about happy hour.

00:57:32   Do you know that it is illegal in Massachusetts?

00:57:36   Happy hour is illegal in Massachusetts.

00:57:38   It's a state law.

00:57:39   Yeah, I believe.

00:57:40   And now this, it, it, it could have changed since, since I was there, but I believe it

00:57:45   has not.

00:57:46   But the idea is that you, you're not allowed to sell drinks at a discount, like whatever

00:57:50   your standard price is for like a beer.

00:57:52   Whoa.

00:57:53   long you got to offer it at the same price because they don't want you enticing they felt like

00:57:58   you know if you offer a discount beer let's say between four and six what do you think is when's

00:58:05   the standard happy hour i think happy hour is um starts at four and it might go to seven is just

00:58:12   my reckon four to six four to seven something around there right yes uh but they don't what

00:58:16   they don't want is to eight states john eight states have made happy hour illegal yeah because

00:58:22   because they think it promotes binge drinking

00:58:25   because you might stay-- - It's that early.

00:58:27   - Well, and let's say it gets around to 6.30,

00:58:31   you look down at your watch, 6.30,

00:58:33   you might want one or two more,

00:58:37   but you feel like you gotta get 'em quick

00:58:39   because if you wait too long, you'll be paying full price.

00:58:42   - The price doubles.

00:58:44   Yeah, okay, all right, I guess.

00:58:47   Utah, I mean, is anybody drinking in Utah?

00:58:50   Alaska, that seems weird.

00:58:52   So, and it's to curb the binge drinking and alcoholism.

00:58:57   There's a lot of squirrely, I've encountered personally

00:59:01   a lot of squirrely laws about this stuff.

00:59:04   It's just, it's also strange,

00:59:05   like where my lady's from in Rhode Island,

00:59:08   like it's dotted with places that are dry.

00:59:10   And so you gotta drive as much as, it's Rhode Island,

00:59:14   it's a toy state.

00:59:16   You just wanna drive as much as a quarter mile

00:59:19   to get to a place over here.

00:59:20   And then some of the places, you've been to South Carolina

00:59:22   where they got the big red dot outside?

00:59:24   - Yeah, I've been to South Carolina.

00:59:26   - I think it's South Carolina.

00:59:27   Or just the whole sort of package store thing

00:59:30   where it's like there's this living, I don't know why,

00:59:34   but over here we sell the alcohol,

00:59:36   and over there we sell the Mr. and Mrs. Tea

00:59:40   Bloody Mary mix 'cause we can't sell 'em together.

00:59:43   - Right.

00:59:44   - But they just got two doors on the place, it's so odd.

00:59:46   (laughing)

00:59:49   Florida, you couldn't get alcohol before I want to say noon or one on Sundays because

00:59:55   of Jesus. They wouldn't let you do that. Oh, Pennsylvania. We had blue laws until very

00:59:59   recently you couldn't buy any booze on Sunday. That's crazy. But then New York City, you

01:00:05   can go to a bar to like four. Yeah. And there's no closing time and nothing happens. I feel

01:00:11   like, you know, I guess you adapt. I mean, you know, we, the, the, the city started giving

01:00:16   us a smaller trash can a few months ago. I was really surprised. Oh yeah, because you

01:00:20   know, it's San Francisco. But like we have a giant giant giant. This will actually be

01:00:24   covered on the next episode of Reconcilable Differences, I'm sorry to say. But they give

01:00:27   us this giant like 32 gallon thing for recycling. Right. And that's cool. But then we get this

01:00:33   like 16 gallon, which is smaller than you think for trash. And I thought, oh, there's

01:00:38   no way we'll ever adapt to this. And then somehow we did. I guess you just get used

01:00:42   to stuff. Yeah. Uh, I'm not a fan of the recycling. Are you? Oh boy. You sure you want to go there?

01:00:53   You sure you want to do this? You're going to, you're going to get so much email. I have,

01:00:58   I have, I have, I have con if I'm being honest, John, I have concerns. I've heard things.

01:01:06   I've heard things about recycling. Have you heard things about recycling?

01:01:11   Uh, Philadelphia, uh, half of our recycling, uh,

01:01:15   gets incinerated and they announced this is good news.

01:01:19   I like that they're going to stop, start incinerating less,

01:01:23   less than the dump. Half empty or half full.

01:01:26   But the part that makes me so mad is that we have gotten at least three tickets

01:01:34   three tickets from since we moved about two years ago and since we've lived in

01:01:41   this place we we have new garbage man I guess different part of town and we've

01:01:46   three times gotten like a $50 fine for something yeah like like the one time

01:01:54   they claimed that we had recycling stuff in our non recycling trash like some you

01:02:00   know like a piece of cardboard we had like cardboard box well it wasn't even

01:02:04   that you put a styrofoam block in the recycling,

01:02:07   it's that you missed something

01:02:08   and there was like an aluminum can and you're,

01:02:10   that's wild, oh my God, and they enforce that?

01:02:13   - Well, I very seemingly very randomly.

01:02:17   - That's like, isn't that

01:02:18   like a running red lights level of cash?

01:02:20   - It makes me so mad though

01:02:21   because they were just burning it up anyway.

01:02:24   - Oh my God.

01:02:25   I just put something in notes for you,

01:02:29   episode of the excellent podcast, 99% invisible,

01:02:33   and it's called National Sword.

01:02:35   And yeah, kind of lays bare what a terrible racket this is.

01:02:39   San Francisco put huge resources into years ago,

01:02:42   like some years ago, like fairly recently,

01:02:45   put huge resources into this incredible technology

01:02:48   that's just, like ever use a Coinstar?

01:02:51   - Yes. - Ever use Coinstar?

01:02:52   - Yeah. - Like Coinstar,

01:02:53   like that seems stupid.

01:02:54   Like, oh God, why can't I just dump all my coins in here?

01:02:57   I think that was the result of like an MIT project

01:02:59   for like, here's this problem we haven't been able to solve,

01:03:03   which is like effectively sorting coins,

01:03:05   kicking out the bad ones.

01:03:06   Apparently in engineering, you would know better than me.

01:03:09   It's a much more difficult problem than people had realized.

01:03:12   And so imagine taking Coinstar

01:03:14   and applying that to recycling and trash.

01:03:17   So it's real good at like running down this,

01:03:20   like, you know, Lucille Ball style conveyor

01:03:23   and like picking out this kind of thing, that kind of thing.

01:03:25   Here's where that goes, here's where this goes.

01:03:27   And all this money went into this.

01:03:28   And then something happened here since here since 2001 China was one of the biggest do you know the story have you heard the story?

01:03:36   Nope

01:03:37   Okay

01:03:37   So this is this is where and you're gonna get an email about this

01:03:39   Since 2001 China was one of the biggest buyers of American recycling that is until last year when China pulled a move that no one saw

01:03:46   Coming they stopped buying so we've been putting a bunch of it on on chips to hand over there

01:03:53   But China's like, you know what? We don't need your stinky ass recycling. It's all dirty. We can't do anything with it

01:03:58   Like, I got nothing for you.

01:04:01   Like it's just floating around the Pacific Ocean on a barge or something.

01:04:05   Yeah, it's like it's out there making freedom reefs, you know?

01:04:08   Yeah, and so they had this thing called Get Ready.

01:04:11   Now America, you really need to up your game and how you name stuff.

01:04:14   They had something called Operation National Sword.

01:04:19   Okay, so I'm just reading from, this is Avery Truffleman, whom I love, is the producer on

01:04:27   National Sword was China's ban on foreign recyclables. It banned four categories and

01:04:31   24 types of imports starting in 2018. It's steadily expanded. So we'll cut to the chase.

01:04:38   Okay, well, where are we with that now? Like, I get to feel good about putting all my stuff

01:04:46   in the big blue can, but like, the market ain't what it used to be. There was a time

01:04:52   when the, I think in particular, the aluminum and to some extent the bottles, you know,

01:04:58   like somebody's got to sort it, somebody's got to figure it out, somebody's got to get the styrofoam

01:05:01   out of there. And then like, did you know it went on a ship to China? No, I didn't know that.

01:05:08   It's never made any sense to me because- Does that run on like Good Feelings and Sarah

01:05:12   McLachlan CDs? No, it's like pumping out tons of fuel to like, get your garbage to China.

01:05:19   Then they stopped like if I put three things in my recycling. Let's say I have a

01:05:23   Can of beer. Yep a bottle a glass bottle. I love four things right glass bottle a

01:05:31   plastic bottle and

01:05:34   A piece of cardboard like, you know, let's just face it from Amazon, right? I put those four things

01:05:39   They all go in the blue container, but they're those you they're all very different things

01:05:43   Absolutely, it makes no sense first started recycling in my college

01:05:48   in 1986. It was an effort where we were like, okay, we want to do this thing. And here's

01:05:54   what recycling required in 1986 was that after the party, we come out there the next morning

01:05:59   with those big gray Husky cans, you know, those big trash cans, and we would collect

01:06:04   all the cans and all the bottles. Now the cans were pretty straightforward. You empty

01:06:07   them out and you put them in the can one. But like you put your, what? You put your

01:06:12   Budweiser's in the brown bottle one. You put your Rolling Rocks in the green one.

01:06:19   You put your Miller Genuine Drafts into the clear one, if memory serves. Like, you

01:06:25   had to go and break all of that stuff down and then you had to drive it

01:06:29   somewhere where they took the recycling. And now today, you know, I could

01:06:34   throw in some some Haagen-Dazs containers and urinate on it and I'll

01:06:38   just assume that someone takes care of that. I get to recycling. It went in the

01:06:42   blue thing. I don't know. I don't want you to get a lot of

01:06:45   email about I don't want to get him out. If anybody's a bit

01:06:48   you're fighting. We're all fighting Operation National

01:06:50   Sword. Let's be honest. Yeah.

01:06:51   All right, let's President G wrote me a beautiful letter.

01:06:57   All right, let's take a break and thank our next sponsor. It's

01:07:02   our good friends at fracture. You were just talking about

01:07:05   Florida. You ever been to Gainesville? That's where

01:07:07   they're

01:07:07   my band played there one time they got a college there and a

01:07:11   lot of food places and I've never been to the refact- I've never been to the refractory.

01:07:18   Yeah, I haven't either. But I do have several of their units hanging in my house right now. Big fan.

01:07:24   You guys know Fracture. They sponsor the show all the time. Come on. You take your pictures,

01:07:31   you got them on your phone, you send them to Fracture. They print them out directly on glass.

01:07:36   You can get them real big. One of the one of the most shocking things to me is you really think

01:07:41   about it. It's like I still think of the cell phone as a sort of being a baby camera, right?

01:07:46   Like it's not my real camera, quote unquote, real camera. You know what a cell phone, you can take

01:07:52   a picture, you take pictures with your cell phone, you can print them huge, like 32 inches, 24 inches,

01:07:58   big, big prints, and they look fantastic. Like the resolution on a modern cell phone camera is

01:08:04   amazing fracture. I mean you don't appreciate it if you, I'm sorry to interrupt, but you don't

01:08:08   appreciate it if even if you got like me, I got a fancy boy iPhone 10, you don't appreciate it

01:08:14   on screen. You appreciate it when you get back to your base camp and look at it in my case on this

01:08:19   5k iMac and oh my god the detail that you just it just pops and like so what are you going to do?

01:08:25   It's Mother's Day. You're going to send your phone to your mom? Tell her to say hi. No, don't do that.

01:08:30   It's probably a little late for Mother's Day.

01:08:32   - Yeah, it's probably a little late for Mother's Day.

01:08:34   - That's why you have to send her your literal phone.

01:08:37   - The thought is there.

01:08:38   Father's Day is coming up.

01:08:39   You could do it for Father's Day.

01:08:40   Mother's Day, we're probably gonna be a tight fit here.

01:08:43   But look, it's a great company with great products.

01:08:47   Everybody I know, and I know, you know,

01:08:49   look, they're paying me to say this,

01:08:51   they're sponsoring the show,

01:08:52   but I'm telling you, these things are fantastic

01:08:55   and people do mention it.

01:08:57   Like, people notice, like, these look different

01:09:00   than just getting a regular picture printed out.

01:09:02   Like when you buy them for people,

01:09:03   they're like amazed because they go edge to edge,

01:09:06   they don't need a frame.

01:09:07   Everything is great about them.

01:09:08   And they say, where did you get this?

01:09:10   You know, like people actually notice

01:09:12   that these are remarkable prints of your photos.

01:09:16   Send them to your family.

01:09:18   They're the greatest gift in the world.

01:09:20   And like I always say, I'm a terrible gift buyer

01:09:22   because I never know what to get anybody.

01:09:24   The great thing about Fracture

01:09:26   is that you can just keep going back to the well

01:09:28   and just like every year, get your mom some fracture prints

01:09:33   of the dog or the kids or the family, whoever's in your life.

01:09:37   - Just go in and look at your favorites.

01:09:39   I mean, one thing we do is we share stuff with the family

01:09:41   through, because we're Cucks for Apple,

01:09:44   we do a shared iCloud photo album.

01:09:48   But even if you just do something as simple as,

01:09:51   don't wait until December 20th to do this.

01:09:55   Go and look at your favorites.

01:09:57   like maybe even hop back a few months and look at the moment, oh my god, I forgot how

01:10:01   well that turned out. Right. And then like, you have no idea how happy you're going to

01:10:05   make somebody it's going to arrive, it pops. And it has this the stuff you need right there.

01:10:10   If you want to hang it up. I mean, it really, they really are beautiful. So where do you

01:10:14   go go to fracture dot me, that's the website fracture dot me for a special discount. They

01:10:21   don't have a code or anything like that. Just go there. Your first fracture order will include

01:10:26   a special discount. And then they have a one question survey at the end of the process.

01:10:32   You go there, you buy your prints, you get them ordered, and then they'll ask you one

01:10:36   question, which is where did you hear a fracture? And then just telling that was the talk show.

01:10:46   You always do such a good job. I one of my favorite little things about having you on

01:10:49   the show is that you always jump in. You know, a lot of these shows you like that. Oh, I

01:10:55   love it. I think it's the best. No, it's the best. Well, you know, one thing I do differently,

01:11:00   we want to talk a little bit here about the art of podcasting. Okay, I do the show, I do these

01:11:05   ad reads, I just interrupt our conversation. And I you're sitting there listening to me do that.

01:11:14   Most shows that are maybe a little bit more polished will do the sponsor reads,

01:11:19   you know, separately from the recording of the the interview talk portion of the show, and then

01:11:25   they'll put them in through the magic of audio editing, then insert them in there and then

01:11:30   play a little bit of electronic music as the music bed.

01:11:32   I don't do it that way. I don't know why. But I will tell you one of the weird things about

01:11:42   doing a podcast every once in a while, I will have to do one in post. Because let's say that the I

01:11:50   don't have the information from the sponsor, like I know that company x is going to be sponsoring

01:11:55   the show, but I don't have it yet. I don't have the read. But I've already scheduled my,

01:12:00   my interview, you know, with you or, or moltz or whoever is on the show this week, you know,

01:12:05   so I'll do that. And then in post, I will I will record the show, or the podcast read, I

01:12:12   can never get them out. I mean, like my my audio recording folder on my Mac is filled

01:12:19   with like, every time it happens, it takes me like eight. It takes eight takes.

01:12:23   You almost make it to the end and eat the booger. Yeah. That's the worst part, right?

01:12:29   Yeah. Yeah. And there's some that are like 14 more about and then there's some that are

01:12:34   only like 14 kilobytes mine end with like screaming for expletives right before I hit

01:12:39   the stop button. But there is something to doing it extemporaneously live. Like I feel like I've got

01:12:48   to have a little bit of an edge. I gotta, I gotta keep you or whoever my guest is on a particular

01:12:53   week. I want to keep you entertained. And I feel like if I'm doing that, that would mean that the

01:13:00   thousands of people out there listening to the show are perhaps entertained by by what's actually

01:13:05   an advertisement. I need that edge. But like when I do it in post, and I don't really have to keep

01:13:12   somebody's interest, I cannot get it out. Yeah. Miss Hart, I ended up talking to myself inside

01:13:17   the ad read like a crazy person. And like, I'm like, What do you think of that? Pretty good. Like,

01:13:21   I just I sound like an insane person. And like, I think people are pretty forgiving of in the show

01:13:27   read, you know? And it's not I don't know. So yeah, I don't want to be partisan about this. But

01:13:33   But I like that kind of read.

01:13:35   I understand why people don't.

01:13:37   You get your monkey balls dynamic ad insertion system

01:13:41   that's gonna go and make sure it's something relevant.

01:13:44   But I also think it's valuable

01:13:46   if you genuinely like what the thing is

01:13:49   and you can say why.

01:13:50   And I think that doesn't hurt.

01:13:53   - No, it's definitely,

01:13:55   one of the nicer things about being in this podcast racket

01:13:58   is that the sponsors really are good companies.

01:14:02   - Fracture is a great company.

01:14:03   - We haven't reached the level

01:14:04   where they start to really suck.

01:14:06   - Right.

01:14:07   - You know what I mean?

01:14:08   Like you wanna stay right where you are, buddy.

01:14:09   You don't wanna get too much bigger.

01:14:12   Are you gonna be doing like refis

01:14:14   and like we buy houses and stuff like that?

01:14:16   You don't want that.

01:14:19   You guys know 1-800-WE-BYE-HOUSES.

01:14:21   (both laughing)

01:14:23   That's no good.

01:14:24   - Did you listen to,

01:14:27   I think I was talking with Moltz a couple of weeks ago.

01:14:30   We were talking about baseball stadium names.

01:14:32   You know that the worst, the worst.

01:14:35   What used to be Comiskey Park in Chicago

01:14:36   where the White Sox play is now a guaranteed rate field.

01:14:40   - That's, I feel like I responded to maybe your,

01:14:43   okay, what is the deal with the stadiums being named

01:14:48   for loan companies?

01:14:51   - I guess that's where all the money is.

01:14:51   - And with like loan, with like loan in the name.

01:14:54   - Yeah, I don't get it.

01:14:55   But then somebody on Twitter, I forget who it was,

01:14:58   I thank you for it, but they sent me the,

01:14:59   they were like, the name isn't the worst part,

01:15:01   the logo is the worst part because the guaranteed rate logo is a down pointing arrow. Like what?

01:15:09   Well it lets you know that your rate will be down I guess I don't know. I guess so.

01:15:16   Oh my god no that's that's that's that's no good. I'm trying to see names here so what

01:15:19   do we got? Maybe some of these are all right so is Fenway Park still Fenway Park? Oh yeah

01:15:24   so yeah that's still Fenway. They can't change that. Bush Stadium. I could live with Bush

01:15:28   stadium. See, the Bush stadium is an interesting one because the Bush family owned the Cardinals,

01:15:35   so they kind of, you know, and then they had, you know, they put their name on their own brand of

01:15:39   beer. So they just by naming it with their family name, they were simultaneously advertising for

01:15:45   their, you know, for their fine selection of American lagers. Dido for Coors Field. John,

01:15:55   Really? Why is a great example Park Globe Life Park in Arlington? That's that's four nouns

01:16:00   Yeah, that's not a name like a Globe Life Park. I mean like what is what is that?

01:16:05   guaranteed rate field

01:16:08   guaranteed rate field Oracle Park

01:16:10   Petco Park

01:16:12   It's kind of nice when it reflects a local business though. So Wrigley is the

01:16:16   Chewing gum people. Yeah, that's the chewing gum. That's cool. That's kind of cool

01:16:21   Wonder if they sell gum at the ballpark. I bet they don't yeah because you know, it's somebody's got to scrape that up

01:16:28   Somebody's got to scrape that up and but they are Wrigley. So maybe they maybe they have to oh

01:16:32   That's a good question. I don't know. I don't know how that works. Don't they stop selling beer like after the seventh inning stretch?

01:16:37   Yeah, I think that I don't know if that's like like a major league

01:16:41   Bylaw or it just all the stadiums just sort of have come to the to the same, you know agreement

01:16:48   But I believe yeah, I believe the seventh inning was the last time you can buy a beer at most ballparks

01:16:53   I guess that's probably a good idea

01:16:55   Well, what stinks though is if you get into an extra inning game a friend of the show, you know, you know her Paul Kofasas, right?

01:17:03   Oh, yeah, we were

01:17:05   Went to the Yankee Stadium and we I think we were watching the Red Sox Yankees game. Yeah

01:17:10   And I believe the game went into the

01:17:16   16th inning my might have been the 17th. I don't know but it's I'll tell you what once you know

01:17:22   It you could use a be like sometime around the 13th inning. You could use a beer. Mm-hmm

01:17:27   Oh, yeah, can't get one. They don't restart it though. No, there's no way to restart

01:17:31   Okay, no hell again in oregano where you take a little break and drink some water

01:17:35   No, no, yeah. All right. Hmm probably send the people home and stuff. Mm-hmm. Jeez. Yeah, I don't know

01:17:44   What's your thoughts on this with this luminary and in the paid subscription?

01:17:49   model for podcasts

01:17:52   I mean, I guess my take comes from a few different angles all of which should have some kind of like

01:18:00   asterisk or

01:18:02   disclaimer

01:18:03   but I mean, you know a big part of these companies who come in and want to disrupt a

01:18:08   Market, I mean a lot of cases a lot of companies, you know from our area

01:18:14   Let's say

01:18:15   You know what they mean is like we've we found a way around the rules for now

01:18:19   And like as long as we can keep the money coming in, you know, we're going to be able

01:18:23   to you know, at least let's just say skirt conventions and

01:18:28   But then in other cases

01:18:31   Boy, I'm trying not to sound unkind

01:18:34   You get carpetbaggers and you get people who are coming in and look at like, you know

01:18:39   idiots like you and me probably mean more to an extent than you is like I am an OG fan of

01:18:45   Podcasting as an independent medium like it is you don't have podcasting without

01:18:52   Independence and not to get all you know Marco here, but I'm I agree

01:18:56   I I really agree that if you if your show is not part of

01:18:59   A you know an RSS feed that anybody can get in pretty much any app. It's that's not really a podcast

01:19:06   I mean we do a patreon for the Dubai Friday show but like I don't think people would be at all attracted to that show

01:19:12   To supporting what we did on the other show

01:19:15   We don't have ads in that case, you know, unless we had that the free stuff and it you know, that doesn't go away

01:19:20   It's not gonna be some kind of like I don't want name names

01:19:23   But like it's not gonna be one of those eventually this goes private like that's as long as we are around and can afford the hosting

01:19:29   like

01:19:30   It'll be there for you. So I don't know. I mean, I don't have anything very

01:19:34   unique to say about this but there is the idea does kind of put me off my beer a little bit when folks come in they're

01:19:41   like

01:19:42   Like what's his name?

01:19:44   The guy in the music man, Henry Hill or is Henry Hill the one from good. No Henry Hills is goodfellas

01:19:50   Anyway, the character the Robert Preston plays please email John

01:19:55   Or the you know, the monorail salesman comes into town

01:20:00   I was like, oh, are you the second being a sucker and dealing with all that advertising?

01:20:03   And it's like, you know, we got trouble right here in podcast city. And so when those folks

01:20:11   come along and are vending their solution to people, sometimes it really feels like

01:20:18   they're vending a solution to a non-existent problem. And I don't want to see, I don't

01:20:23   want to go on about it, but like in the case of Luminary, of course I downloaded the app

01:20:25   and like, oh God, of course, instantly I need to have an account for this. And I just closed

01:20:30   it up and you know people who have used the app say it's like not the worst app in the

01:20:33   world but it's not a great app and it is it's really weird that you can't just paste in

01:20:40   the RSS feed for a podcast like so the only way I'd so I you download the loom I wouldn't

01:20:49   recommend it it's not a great app but I you know for professional diligence import like

01:20:54   opml nope oh man that's not who it's for though right right i guess well and i think part of it

01:21:01   is like the whole thing with it it is just so it's weird to me like that uh so the new york

01:21:11   times has this podcast that is apparently just a genuine sensation the daily huge it is it may be

01:21:18   like the biggest podcast in the world ever. It's up there, right? And they, it's just a,

01:21:24   you know, there's a URL. So 20 minutes, half hour every morning, Michael Barbaro talks to somebody

01:21:30   from the New York Times about a story and it became like, improbably popular. I listen to it.

01:21:36   I listen to it most days. It's a good show, but like it spawned, you know, a lot of imitators,

01:21:40   the post does one that sounds good and there's all of those, but like, yeah, yeah. Then there are,

01:21:45   They're always I believe I don't follow this stuff anymore

01:21:47   But I feel like I've heard some pretty bananas numbers on how they do and they I think they are often

01:21:53   At the top if not consistently at the top on iTunes, it's but it it they deserve it. It's great

01:21:59   That's super cool. It's great to hit that to see some you know, an old institution like the New York Times thriving in the new medium

01:22:06   but what they've done with luminary is they've just said we don't want our podcast in your app and

01:22:12   But it's it's just a regular old-fashioned podcast where if you know the URL and you go to that URL you get an

01:22:20   RSS feed in XML format and if your software can you know parse the RSS then you can see here's all the episodes

01:22:28   And here's the URLs for the episodes and they're all just out there on

01:22:32   The public internet. Yeah, and they just said we don't want our podcast in your app

01:22:38   which is a very weird thing and sort of antithetical to like imagine like if I said to

01:22:43   Google I was like, I don't want daring fireball to be in Chrome

01:22:48   Like I'm oh, it's not you're not even talking robust.txt. You're saying like I don't want like I'm

01:22:54   It's not robot. It's not really opposed to all right. This is all just through handshakes the New York Times

01:23:00   It's just like we don't want to be in there and the luminaries that we don't want any trouble

01:23:04   We don't want any lawsuits. So okay, but that's why I think that they can't just let you paste a you are

01:23:10   URL in because then you could paste the URL for the daily and that's why I

01:23:14   Guess I don't know. I I

01:23:17   Geez, I don't know. I think I would suspect that

01:23:21   Or maybe they were to drive you to the directory and get you clicking on stuff

01:23:27   That's being featured and stuff like that. But like so is there I mean how many I don't fully understand what their deal is

01:23:34   But like so it's the idea is that you can get all the podcasts you already love asterisk

01:23:38   So you're already like a big podcast fan when you saw you've heard serial and there's that and then

01:23:44   because you know, that's they invented podcast a couple years back and

01:23:49   The idea is you're gonna really want this Trevor Noah show

01:23:56   That's unavailable anywhere else. And then how much do you pay a month for that service?

01:24:01   I think they're charging like eight bucks a month eight eight or ten bucks a month. Okay. All right, I

01:24:06   Don't know. I don't get it. But and the other thing too that annoys me

01:24:10   and I wrote a piece about it and maybe I

01:24:13   Maybe I'm a bit pedantic about it in terms of should they be calling these shows quote podcasts. Mm-hmm

01:24:21   And I you know, I I don't regret it, but I feel like I was a little strident

01:24:28   And you know, and there's a part of me that rolls my eyes at my own argument that podcasts

01:24:32   should be something that you can listen to in any podcast app.

01:24:35   And a little bit is that me saying what the way I think things should be as opposed to

01:24:41   the way they are, or the way they had been right.

01:24:44   I mean, is a podcast is Trevor Noah's show a podcast if it's only available in the app,

01:24:50   maybe is you if I could say in that instance, you or in fact, many of us are taking any

01:24:58   number of pieces of bait here, if I could say. So like, in that case, the bait here

01:25:05   is like, "Maaah!" Like, you know, you say, "Ah, that's not really a podcast." And it's

01:25:09   like, "Well, okay, is it a podcast? Is it not a podcast?" I could think of an example

01:25:13   or a counterexample of almost any kind of audio people listen to that, I mean, look

01:25:18   at Amazon. Amazon has tried this with like, you buy into this service to get these shows.

01:25:24   Certainly there are people like us who have a Patreon with a nominally private feed for

01:25:27   these things. Mark Maron or whomever, or back in the day, Ricky Gervais, like he would just

01:25:32   cut off after a certain number of episodes and you had to buy them on iTunes, I think

01:25:35   was his model. So I mean, the problem is that like we take the bait on that. So now we're

01:25:39   arguing. Now we sound like old men who were like arguing about like, like who the best

01:25:42   shortstop was or something. And like, no, you know, that's, that's not, that's, that's

01:25:48   one of the, that's maybe the first, I don't know if it's the second piece of bait. The

01:25:51   other big piece of bait is that they, they seem to have like so many of these folks,

01:25:55   seem to have presented it, I want to be careful here, they seem to have presented it as like,

01:26:00   you know, this grift, where all these ding-a-ling podcasters want to make you listen to ads

01:26:06   for stuff you don't want is killing you, isn't it? Like, isn't it terrible? And et cetera,

01:26:11   et cetera. And so what happens? Now we take the bait on that. We, not me personally, but

01:26:15   some people take the bait on that and they're like, hey, some people might just be honest

01:26:19   to them and say like, "No, you're taking food out of my mouth." And other people,

01:26:25   you know, everybody's got their reasons. But all of that detracts from the kind of the

01:26:31   big picture thing, which is like anybody who enters a market like this, somebody who enters

01:26:37   a market this mature at this point is probably not here. They're here because they like the

01:26:44   idea of that market and the future market. They're not here because they love the stuff.

01:26:47   Right. Maybe that shouldn't matter. And maybe I'm being a real, I'm being very silly about

01:26:54   that. But like, why do you get an influx of whatever, however many like, you know, millions

01:27:02   or tens of millions of dollars? Well, because they think somebody thinks, and they're smart

01:27:07   people, right, but somebody on Sand Hill Road thinks throwing this big bag of money over

01:27:12   time is going to let you capture a market in a way that's going to be difficult to compete

01:27:19   with.

01:27:20   That's the point.

01:27:22   You don't get $20 million in VC money right now to be the fourth best anything.

01:27:28   You're getting that because everybody looks at Amazon and says, "Oh my gosh, they've turned

01:27:32   the whole world upside down because they had for years they were not profitable in the

01:27:38   usual way.

01:27:39   They found ways to pivot, da da da da, and like, I don't know if that's the best example,

01:27:43   but I think that's why folks come into this. And like what we, I think what we kind of

01:27:47   need to be interrogating is like, okay, well like, who is this great for? Is maybe one

01:27:54   way to put it. Who is this really great for? Because like, let's even take the podcasters

01:27:57   out of it because who cares? But like, is this, is this a particularly good thing for

01:28:03   existing or new listeners? I don't know. It kind of doesn't seem like it. And so the old

01:28:13   man part of me does believe that this medium would not be where it is today and as quote

01:28:19   unquote successful as it is today if it did not have this legacy of being independent

01:28:24   and free as in all the definitions of free.

01:28:27   And just and so simple. It is very simple. Right. Thank you to Apple for helping us with

01:28:33   with that, and thank God they haven't

01:28:35   screwed the pooch on that yet.

01:28:37   But yeah, that's the big rant, is like,

01:28:40   okay, so like they say in Glengarry Glen Ross,

01:28:42   what is this in service of?

01:28:43   So if your company succeeds really well,

01:28:46   so they're gonna have some kind of press release

01:28:49   about blah, blah, blah, so many new consumers

01:28:51   and downloads and all this stuff,

01:28:53   but even with Spotify, I'm a huge fan

01:28:55   of the Spotify music stuff.

01:28:57   I think as it is right now, their podcast experience

01:28:59   is just hot garbage, but at least with Spotify,

01:29:02   you have to like Spotify and Google.

01:29:04   I think you have to like ask to be in there.

01:29:06   I don't think they're scraping everybody's feeds.

01:29:08   Scraping is a strong word, but you know what I mean.

01:29:11   But in this case, they're gonna gather up

01:29:13   all of this stuff, which is admittedly freely available,

01:29:18   HTTP, feeds of stuff, not that different from a website,

01:29:23   but they're putting all that into their thing.

01:29:24   Go look at this wonderful stuff that we've put together.

01:29:27   I just don't know how in five years,

01:29:28   I'm not sure how this works out great for almost anybody,

01:29:31   but the folks who are looking for a 10x on their investment.

01:29:34   That's cynical, but that's how I feel.

01:29:36   - A couple people made the same point.

01:29:38   And I think it's kind of obvious.

01:29:42   So I don't know who to give credit to, but it's not my idea.

01:29:45   I saw it several people make this

01:29:46   when this whole luminary thing broke

01:29:49   a week and a half, two weeks ago.

01:29:51   But like the thought, but I think it's true.

01:29:55   And I think it's really kind of interesting to think about

01:29:57   is that podcasting is really the only part

01:30:00   the internet left that works the way the internet is supposed to work.

01:30:04   Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And lots of people have, you know, just to,

01:30:10   again, credit lots of anonymous people who said the same thing, but like, you

01:30:13   know, we've all seen those ridiculous terms of terms and conditions on a site

01:30:18   that say you have to ask permission before you link to us and stuff like

01:30:21   that. And the core doctors of the world have like roundly understandably

01:30:24   criticized that and say, that's crazy. That's what the web is. No, I totally

01:30:28   agree with you. When I say free, you know, the free is in beer, free is in speech. But

01:30:32   I also mean like free as an independent, free as in like, you know, to kind of take it back

01:30:37   in some ways to that talk we did at South by Southwest that we always find a way to

01:30:40   bring up. Like, it's, you know, there are many like it, but this is mine. Like, this

01:30:46   is my thing. And like, it's when places have like scraped my feet in the true sense of

01:30:51   the word in the past, it wasn't that I was mad they were taking away ad dollars, it was

01:30:55   mad that they were trying to like put my stuff somewhere that I didn't want it to be in a

01:30:59   bad neighborhood. And that I'm not implying I don't mean to imply specifically here that

01:31:03   luminaries a bad neighborhood. But I do feel like the ability part of independence is that

01:31:08   ability for better or worse to be can be able to control what it is that you that you make

01:31:13   up to a certain point. Right. So I mean, like, and this is why I never I very rarely intentionally

01:31:19   use the word pirating to talk about illegal downloading. And maybe it's a distinction

01:31:23   without a difference. But I think of pirating as somebody who burns a DVD and sells it at

01:31:28   the swap meet. Maybe that's not the greatest thing in the world, but it's something where

01:31:34   we're like, "Take all my stuff you want. I can always make more stuff, but don't make

01:31:40   me a flower bed in your walled garden and act like that benefits me." I don't think

01:31:46   that's cool. Part of that freedom is that I get to make this thing and I get to have

01:31:51   to see if somebody decides to sort of claim that as part of their ages and their value proposition

01:31:55   I think I should have a say in that anyway yeah isn't it remarkable I mean just to maybe get

01:32:03   somewhat on brand for the show but talk about apple but isn't apple's role in podcasting

01:32:10   remarkable like I would say unique it it seems crazy in hindsight you know at the age it's crazy

01:32:18   It's crazy. They were able to pull it off and it's 10x more insane that they haven't

01:32:23   Capitalized monetized all right. They haven't any way that we've seen yet, right?

01:32:28   They've never really tried to monetize it at all. They don't they don't do ads

01:32:33   They just it's like they built the most to your Trump example

01:32:37   It's like they built the most beautiful golf golf course in the world and then like just didn't charge people for it

01:32:42   Let you know they don't even really play there. They just wanted to make this thing and it's like

01:32:46   You know the big loser in that one obviously back in the day was Odeo

01:32:49   But like it's I think about it all the time John

01:32:51   I think it best look like like Matt how I used to say back in the blog days

01:32:54   We're all one Firefox extension away from not having a job anymore

01:32:57   And like on the on the day when if and when Apple decides to get weird with podcasts

01:33:02   That's because they also as Marco said on ATP. They also make the directory right that like everybody relies upon

01:33:08   Which directory let's point out luminary doesn't use so you can't well

01:33:14   Do they not I think it was a luminary or was it Spotify, but there's some of these services that have their own version of that

01:33:19   there's not like a

01:33:21   ID that can be used easily, but I think that they sort of started by copying the iTunes database like

01:33:28   With the same like like grippable URLs. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not quite sure I guess it doesn't matter but effectively

01:33:35   It's amazing. They haven't screwed it up

01:33:39   It's just crazy. I I still wonder I and I've been talking about this ever since the word was invented and you know

01:33:46   back when this show started

01:33:49   However forever ago

01:33:52   But would Apple?

01:33:55   Was what caught their eye what caught Steve Jobs's I the fact that they were using the board pod, you know that the name of

01:34:03   it

01:34:05   We call them podcast but nobody even uses iPods anymore right the iPod is you know like a relic?

01:34:11   Yeah, like the who would have thought the word podcast would outlive the iPod and would Apple have gotten interested in the space

01:34:19   If they had been called something else that didn't have the word pod in it

01:34:23   Mm-hmm

01:34:25   Like would have caught would have caught public attention let alone like gotten Steve's

01:34:30   - It's difficult to know, 'cause I'm like,

01:34:34   I have to be honest, like, I have no trouble at all

01:34:36   imagining Steve, not just like approving so many aspects

01:34:41   of how a Macintosh got made, I have no problem at all

01:34:45   imagining him like using a Macintosh.

01:34:49   Like really, really, really using a Macintosh

01:34:51   or really, really using an iPhone.

01:34:53   I mean, can you imagine the first time he saw

01:34:55   like that rubber banding and was just like, oh my God,

01:34:58   Like this is wild, this is the thing, this is it.

01:35:01   So like, and I can even relate to the,

01:35:05   to the like, okay, I tried,

01:35:08   what was the anecdote about TV?

01:35:10   It's probably a Gene Munster thing.

01:35:11   But where like he called up somebody at like,

01:35:15   was it like Comcast or somewhere?

01:35:16   It's like, this is terrible,

01:35:17   it's a terrible service, it's garbage.

01:35:20   But even in that case,

01:35:21   I don't think he probably watched a lot of TV,

01:35:23   but I'll bet when he did, he really wanted it to work.

01:35:27   I don't, this is completely off topic in some ways,

01:35:29   but I don't imagine Steve listening

01:35:32   to a lot of podcasts personally.

01:35:35   - Yeah, me neither.

01:35:36   I can't, but who knows?

01:35:37   I don't know, maybe he did.

01:35:39   It just doesn't seem like he had the time.

01:35:42   - Yeah, so I mean, what is it about it

01:35:44   that would be so appealing to,

01:35:45   and again, we're falling into this hashiography

01:35:47   that he's the person who hits a big button

01:35:49   and makes everything happen in Apple.

01:35:51   But it caught somebody's attention.

01:35:54   It could be because of the pod part.

01:35:55   it could just be because that was the big,

01:35:58   the little baby steps of their interest

01:36:01   in becoming the media place,

01:36:04   like starting with the songs that you could buy.

01:36:08   It's audio, it's more audio, it's good for iPods.

01:36:10   Maybe that could be one.

01:36:12   - Yeah, I don't know.

01:36:13   It's crazy when you think about it though.

01:36:15   And we just sort of, it's just sort of like in the air,

01:36:18   you know, it's like just the oxygen we breathe

01:36:20   is that iTunes podcast database has 10 million podcasts.

01:36:25   And if you're not in there, you're effectively delisted.

01:36:29   - I mean, it's not utterly equivalent,

01:36:31   but it's almost like,

01:36:32   even though I'm a Library of Congress man myself,

01:36:34   it's a little bit like Dewey Decimal.

01:36:36   Like it's something that everybody can use

01:36:38   to understand and organize a very large collection of data.

01:36:42   And it's like, if not a standard,

01:36:44   it's close enough for now that that all is there.

01:36:47   So, I mean, I don't know.

01:36:48   I don't know, it's such a weird time

01:36:50   and there still is so much weird money

01:36:53   coming into these ideas that don't always make sense to me,

01:36:56   apart from the sort of obvious way that it makes sense.

01:36:59   But like, I mean, I don't like hate Luminary,

01:37:02   but like, I don't think, okay.

01:37:06   So I, just to restate this in a slightly different way,

01:37:10   I was a really big podcast fan

01:37:14   before I became a podcast as occupation guy in some way.

01:37:19   And I know not everybody is,

01:37:22   Not everybody listens to anywhere near as many podcasts.

01:37:24   And the truth is that in the years after that,

01:37:26   I got way, way more into it.

01:37:28   The medium started making more sense to me

01:37:29   in all of its different varieties.

01:37:32   But like, I have to be honest, like, yeah,

01:37:34   this is like a big part of like what I do for work.

01:37:36   And I hope that doesn't get screwed up.

01:37:38   But I promise I'm not being cynical when I say

01:37:42   I would just also really hate the idea

01:37:44   that this screws up the shows that I enjoy,

01:37:46   the medium that I enjoy.

01:37:48   And the fact that like, there are so many shows,

01:37:50   I could suggest to you like six shows I've discovered,

01:37:52   like in the last couple months even,

01:37:54   that like you've just come along,

01:37:56   weird little independent shows that come along,

01:37:58   and it's always such a joy to me.

01:37:59   And I go back and I binge all their stuff.

01:38:01   And I'm not saying that's impossible

01:38:03   with something like Luminary,

01:38:04   but I'll for damn sure tell you,

01:38:05   I hope there's not 10 different companies

01:38:06   trying to compete on this.

01:38:08   And I hope that their vision for what success looks like

01:38:10   in the future takes into account

01:38:12   some of the things that have made it special

01:38:14   and made it good and have that freedom

01:38:17   all its different ways has been so instrumental in how we got to where we are and made it

01:38:23   interesting to the people who think they can make a different buck from it.

01:38:27   Yeah, I can't help but think, you know, everybody keeps saying they want to be the Netflix of

01:38:36   podcasts. I just don't think there's a role for the Netflix of podcasts. Like I think

01:38:40   it's a bad idea. Like, I can't tell how much it's because I'm there's already a Netflix

01:38:44   Thanks for podcasts. It's podcasts. I mean, in some ways, you know, it's like when MC

01:38:50   Hammer announced he was going to make the YouTube of dance videos, somebody finally

01:38:54   said, you know, there's already a YouTube of dance videos. It's called YouTube.

01:38:57   Right. I kind of feel...

01:39:00   So what does he mean by that? Netflix. It means that like, we're going to find a way

01:39:04   to like bring in all, most of the things, some of the things, like make it a little

01:39:08   bit more confusing. Like, oh, yeah, no, you're right. That is what they say. They, I think

01:39:12   mean that in terms of the market leader. The script started out scrappy, became the market

01:39:16   leader. And now as somehow in Netflix's case, they've slid into be what the last one of

01:39:22   the streaming services you would cancel probably for me, that's Hulu. But for a lot of people,

01:39:26   that's absolutely Netflix. Like look at Facebook. I mean, how much money they make. I mean,

01:39:32   Apple's a little easier to understand because they sell devices, right? It's a little bit

01:39:36   easier to comprehend. Like this is $1,000 phone, this is a $2,000 laptop, you give us

01:39:41   the money, we give you the device. Like Facebook doesn't make anything. Google doesn't make

01:39:46   anything. It's all just ones and zeros flying around. And they make so...

01:39:51   I feel a little under simplified, a little simplified. But yeah, I think the point. But

01:39:55   it's a manufacturer or anything?

01:39:56   Well, but they just had, there's just a staggering amount of money to be made in doing what they

01:40:02   do. And I feel like the, they're just looking at podcasts and they're like, well, nobody

01:40:07   is, you know, there's all sorts of people who are making a living on podcasts. I

01:40:11   mean, I make half of my income from the show. You make a living from doing

01:40:18   podcasts, right? And that is the scale that I tend to think of it as. Like, I

01:40:23   would like to make enough money doing the show to have like a salary and, you

01:40:28   know, support my family. Whereas I feel like with Luminary, somebody is coming in

01:40:35   and saying, "Let's make a billion dollars on podcasts."

01:40:38   - It almost feels, this is really bad,

01:40:40   and you can cut this out,

01:40:42   it's almost like somebody showed up in a dirt parking lot

01:40:46   and started painting lines and putting up parking meters,

01:40:50   like where there had been no charge before.

01:40:51   And you're like, "We're improving your parking experience."

01:40:53   Like now we've normalized the width of all the spaces

01:40:56   and made it this way.

01:40:57   And I realize that's a silly, silly example,

01:40:59   but it feels like they're coming in

01:41:01   and trying to put a meter on something

01:41:04   that didn't have a meter before.

01:41:05   If you are the kind of show that like wants to have

01:41:07   a Patreon feed or similar,

01:41:09   or you're the kind of person that like wants to move,

01:41:10   like with the independence of that media,

01:41:12   I hate making this about the money,

01:41:14   but I guess that's what it kind of comes down to.

01:41:16   Like it would be nice to retain,

01:41:18   if not the income, at least the control over what you do.

01:41:21   You know, you can't control what's the internet.

01:41:22   You can't control what people do with your stuff,

01:41:26   but it's really hard to feel great about a VC funded way

01:41:29   to like put parking meters, you know, in a dirt lot.

01:41:33   Speaking of parking meters in a dirt lot, uh,

01:41:35   I'd like to take a break here and thank our third and final sponsor of the show.

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01:43:04   listens to the talk show is the sort of person that the people in your life you they come

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01:43:25   have that webmaster. I think that was like a law, right? Or like the unofficial rule.

01:43:32   It's like part of some distro, but it seems like you could webmaster anybody.

01:43:35   You had to go somewhere. Every domain had to have a webmaster at domain.

01:43:39   Just like a wizard with like a big pointy hat with moons on it and a book about pearls.

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01:43:53   Any email address you wanted to at your domain.com would go to your inbox.

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01:44:11   covered. Here's where you go. Squarespace comm slash talk show, squarespace.com slash talk show.

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01:44:38   That's a good deal. That's a lot. That's a lot of percent. Yeah. Time to go on road test. You go and check it out. You see if you like it. It's Squarespace. Yeah. All right. Hey, what else you want to talk about? I just want to know if you're feeling better. I'm feeling better. I'm feeling that you've cheered me up. I feel a little bit. I feel like I got my my legs back under me. Do you think you think you might want to take a nap today? Oh, yeah, definitely gonna take a nap. I think a nap is a sure thing. But then on the other hand, see, now we're right back at the beginning of the show. Now if I take a nap, well, it's grew up my sleep tonight.

01:45:08   Right, helps tick a shorty.

01:45:11   I mean, everybody's got their own zone for a good nap.

01:45:16   Like for me, a three hour nap, not a great nap.

01:45:18   No, that's terrible.

01:45:19   If you wake up and there's a Chuck Norris movie on TBS

01:45:21   and everything's dark, you slept too long.

01:45:24   Too long.

01:45:26   But of course when you have a child, that rarely happens.

01:45:30   Because my daughter is, proud to say,

01:45:33   is fighting Ganon in Zelda right now.

01:45:36   Oh yeah?

01:45:37   Oh yeah, she's got all the memories, she's good to go, and she's fighting.

01:45:40   She started last night, she's doing it today, she said this is literally the most important

01:45:43   day of the year that she's had.

01:45:45   And yeah, she's throwing down, she's got beasts and stuff.

01:45:48   I'm saying all of this phonetically.

01:45:50   I might as well be reading off a menu in French, but it's Ganon and it's a big deal.

01:45:57   It's a big deal.

01:45:58   But sometimes they will come in and show you a memory or something, or it could be a vine

01:46:01   where someone falls down.

01:46:03   That that has kept me from super long naps and I consider it a blessing but you owe it to yourself. You've earned it. Yeah

01:46:10   By being down here in the podcast coal mine

01:46:14   Anything else are you excited about anything from WWDC that's coming up a lot of rumors have already leaked

01:46:22   Dueling rumors so much going on. What am I excited about? I hope you guys all have a great time

01:46:27   I hope it's fun for everybody

01:46:29   It seems like that is like a huge piece of it is that it's really fun

01:46:32   At a personal level it is it we I feel like we're settling into this San Jose era of

01:46:41   WWDCs but one of the things is I have friends such as you who live in the city of San Francisco and

01:46:48   I I don't really get to I haven't seen you

01:46:51   Because I don't really go to I don't go to San Francisco anymore

01:46:55   But like it sounds like it's been good like and I mean, I don't really go places anymore. Um, I would large

01:47:01   I wouldn't recommend coming down to San Jose

01:47:03   You know how sick I would get if I left if I left the house give any sense of that

01:47:07   It's just there's just there's so much out there. There's like there's this children and

01:47:12   Animals and railings. There's so many railings. I've those are just chock-a-block

01:47:17   I haven't left the house in Maryland isn't that's and that's that's that's amazing. You should maybe air filtration system

01:47:23   I don't know, I'm excited for whatever comes next. I always enjoy seeing what the updates are, especially with the various OS's.

01:47:30   I guess maybe in my case, I don't know, I haven't followed this too closely, but like I'm very intrigued to see what happens with iPad,

01:47:38   because that continues to be a thing that I really love and enjoy seeing other people use, and I hope that continues to attract people to the Apple world.

01:47:49   my watch does everything I need it to do. I like my Mac fine. Yeah, I don't know. I don't have

01:47:55   anything huge, but like I do follow it, you know, my Apple TV. I watch the stuff when it's happening

01:48:02   and it's an exciting time. I'm yeah, I'm still I'm still I'm still there for Apple. Yeah,

01:48:07   I feel like above and beyond any specific rumors of a specific feature or a specific

01:48:13   new app or something like that. Just the basic story of, hey, this is the year where Apple's

01:48:18   getting serious about making real improvements to the iPad so that it's more of a computer

01:48:24   and less of a big phone.

01:48:27   I got my bridge shipped yesterday.

01:48:34   So I'm looking forward to that.

01:48:37   That's the keyboard that looks like a MacBook Pro keyboard and you can put your iPad in

01:48:43   it.

01:48:44   - Yeah, and I got it for the big boy.

01:48:47   So I'm looking forward to playing with that.

01:48:49   But yeah, yeah, like you were, you know, it's funny.

01:48:51   'Cause like, of course people like to rib folks

01:48:53   like you and me about this,

01:48:54   but like when you said that thing the other day on Twitter

01:48:57   about every time you go to do command space on iPad,

01:49:01   keyboard, like you always like start,

01:49:04   you start typing and it always misses the first letters.

01:49:07   I mean, so glass half full, glass half empty.

01:49:10   The glass half empty is, oh my God, that's so frustrating.

01:49:11   That always, always, always seems to happen.

01:49:14   Is it latency?

01:49:15   Am I typing just too aggressively?

01:49:17   But Glass Half Full, man,

01:49:20   that just shows you how much you've stopped thinking

01:49:23   about it in some ways as a thing that you manipulate

01:49:26   with your meaty little fingers.

01:49:27   Like the fact that we're both disappointed

01:49:29   that that doesn't happen faster, they can fix that.

01:49:31   They can absolutely fix that.

01:49:32   What they've done though is get me out of the idea

01:49:34   is that this is a thing that I'm gonna stream

01:49:37   Project Runway on, like alone.

01:49:39   Like there's other stuff that you can like seriously do.

01:49:42   - So for anybody who didn't see my tweet,

01:49:44   and it's one of those things where,

01:49:46   I don't know if I should have turned it into a full article.

01:49:50   I don't know if it's worth it.

01:49:51   Is it just a tweet-length thought?

01:49:53   It seems bad, but there's the spotlight feature,

01:49:56   and you hit Command + Space, and the Mac--

01:49:58   - Which is the key to the kingdom.

01:50:00   - Right, Command + Space.

01:50:02   - That's the thing, is 'cause you do get an app,

01:50:03   which is great, sorry to interrupt, I did it again.

01:50:05   But like the app, which is great, but the thing is,

01:50:07   you are just a tick, tick, tick away from opening any app.

01:50:11   you don't have to go hit the screen.

01:50:13   You don't have to go find it.

01:50:14   You're using typing to find whatever it is,

01:50:17   typing, literal typing with a keyboard,

01:50:19   to find anything, and that becomes the key

01:50:22   that unlocks all the doors for turning this thing

01:50:24   into such a great machine.

01:50:25   - And I, you know, for example, I might just wanna,

01:50:28   I don't know where I am.

01:50:29   Maybe I'm in a Twitter app, maybe I'm in the email app,

01:50:31   but I just wanna jump over to Safari,

01:50:33   and I type command space, and I type S-A-F,

01:50:36   and it all happens very fast.

01:50:38   And what happens on the iPad with a physical keyboard connected, like a Bluetooth keyboard,

01:50:45   what happens every single time is that the S gets eaten because it doesn't listen for keyboard input

01:50:53   until the animation is done. So you hit commit. Oh, you think that's what it is?

01:50:57   Yeah. It's not listening to... It's not taking input while it's animating the spotlight interface.

01:51:05   So I'll tell you, but I can't help it because I use the Mac all the time and on a Mac,

01:51:10   there is no lag. So launch bar or like just lights light up. I can't. But then every,

01:51:15   but then it's like whatever AF is like a couple of people use Safari as the example. And then,

01:51:20   you know, like if you have like, I forget what comes up for me with AF it's, it's

01:51:25   something random. But if you have like affinity designer or something like that, it just launches.

01:51:31   Yeah, well if you spell something almost right, it'll find it. Like if you misspell Twitter,

01:51:35   it will still find it pretty easily, but I think it keys very heavily on those first letters.

01:51:39   And it just, anyway, but I have very good news though for you. Very good news. Since tweeting

01:51:45   that, I heard from a trusted little birdie that this will be, that bug will be fixed in a

01:51:52   forthcoming update to iOS. Wow, you're like, you're like Varus. You just, you come and you

01:51:58   bring all the secrets from all the kingdoms. Yeah, that's so good. See, I would have guessed,

01:52:02   I'm guessing in that case, like reduce motions not going to make a difference because it's kind of a

01:52:06   necessary. No, it's just not listening to input when it does that. I don't. Some people and then

01:52:12   it's funny because you can't do anything on the internet without getting yelled at. But then

01:52:16   people are people are telling me it was it's I'm a dummy because it's Bluetooth lag. They're like,

01:52:22   you're using a Bluetooth keyboard. That's why God what is wrong with you? Well, and why are you so

01:52:27   stupid but I it really does you know like

01:52:30   It really makes me wonder

01:52:33   It makes me question everything in my life where people are telling me that it's Bluetooth like when I know it's not Bluetooth like and

01:52:40   Then they're telling me that's why Apple makes the smart keyboard cover so that there's a keyboard

01:52:45   With no Bluetooth lag and that that's what I should use instead

01:52:49   What do you use like what is it what is a ps4 controller

01:52:56   Bluetooth. Honestly, I'm asking. I feel like it might be Bluetooth. Yeah, it's Bluetooth.

01:53:01   There is not lag. Pretty responsive to moving around. Well, no, here's the thing that is so

01:53:07   confounding to me about this argument is that the only way you get into the situation where

01:53:12   you're typing a spotlight search is that you've already hit something on your key.

01:53:17   You've hit the command space. So it's obviously listening to your keyboard already, right? It

01:53:23   can't be latency. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, no, no. Yeah, you're right. Otherwise, so

01:53:30   if that were the case, theoretically, you would hit command space and the pause, right?

01:53:37   It would be a different it would be a different pause. Right? Yeah, it might. It's a very,

01:53:43   it's just a bug. It is a bug. There's no, you know, but sometimes you get into these

01:53:47   people who want to see like Apple does no wrong you know and it once you go

01:53:57   down that rabbit hole it is it really makes you want to reach out and strangle

01:54:02   somebody oh you because you're being disloyal right you're a hate are you a

01:54:06   hater at that point is your hater I guess but anyway they're gonna fix it

01:54:11   I'll be around I'll be checking it out have a have a have a have a wonderful

01:54:16   And listen when you come here drink a lot of water wash your hands

01:54:19   I try to get a lot of sleep really we're gonna really wash them more than you think like sing a song

01:54:23   Like it could be a Tom Petty song could be a weezer song whatever you want to sing

01:54:26   But like sing slowly sing the bridge from a song

01:54:30   You know I'm saying really get in there nails to get the nail beds those little bugs hide

01:54:35   I'll tell you Marilyn it really did cheer me up talking to you. You're a friend. I don't feel like we do this enough

01:54:41   Maybe I ask you to I don't know. Maybe I ask you too many times to do my show

01:54:44   I don't know, but I it it

01:54:46   That's like eating a bowl of sugar. You know, it's fun for a minute, but you wouldn't want to do it all year

01:54:50   (laughs)

01:54:52   (laughing)