The Talk Show

250: ‘A Couple of Awkward Swipes’ With MG Siegler


00:00:00   You had a baby.

00:00:01   - Yes, little Mazie's almost seven months old.

00:00:05   So, and it just, I mean, it's been a complete whirlwind

00:00:07   as I'm sure you know from years ago,

00:00:09   but yeah, my brain is all sort of all over the place.

00:00:14   - It looks like the last time you were on the show

00:00:16   was April, 2017.

00:00:18   Is that crazy?

00:00:19   - Wow, so yeah, two years ago.

00:00:21   Yeah, that's again, if I condensed the past seven months

00:00:26   into like 10 seconds, that seems about right.

00:00:29   I am following along with young Maisley on the Instagram

00:00:34   and she looks delightful.

00:00:36   - Thank you, yeah, I think Megan and I obviously

00:00:40   both run that account, but she does more of the posting,

00:00:44   I would say, it's always funny, she notes sometimes

00:00:46   how avid of a follower you are, which we appreciate.

00:00:50   - Sometimes I feel like a hypocrite

00:00:54   for being such a vocal Facebook critic

00:00:56   and still enjoying Instagram.

00:00:59   And other times when it can be so personal like that,

00:01:02   I'm like, you know, I'm willing to,

00:01:04   I'm willing to eat this hypocrisy for the time being

00:01:08   because I feel like I'm getting something out of this.

00:01:11   - Yeah, I'm right there with you.

00:01:13   And I mean, I know you were very early, I would say,

00:01:16   on that, ahead of that trend, right, with Facebook.

00:01:19   Did you ever even sign up?

00:01:20   - Nope. - I know you have Instagram,

00:01:21   but not Facebook itself. - No, I've never once

00:01:22   signed up for Facebook.

00:01:24   - And that looks pretty prescient these days.

00:01:28   But yeah, even those of us who are sort of now

00:01:31   more vocal critics in the later years

00:01:33   after everything that's went down

00:01:34   the past two years with Facebook,

00:01:36   still can't quite wean myself off of it,

00:01:39   mainly for family reasons, like my mom uses it a ton,

00:01:42   and so it's the way she follows Maisie and everything.

00:01:44   But also, yeah, Instagram still remains

00:01:47   just an awesome network, and so it's hard

00:01:50   not to have that hypocrisy, I guess.

00:01:53   - You know, and I, yeah, and so I hear it loudly admitting

00:01:57   that I use Instagram. I'm not sure that Instagram at this point, especially once Kevin system

00:02:03   and whoever the other co founder was decided to leave my career. You know, our Instagram's

00:02:12   privacy policies and data retention any better than Facebook is really is it really worth

00:02:17   thinking of Instagram as an independent entity of Facebook? I think probably not. So I mean,

00:02:22   Again, I'm not trying to do a holier than now

00:02:25   or better than now thing,

00:02:27   but I think that not having ever signed up for Facebook

00:02:30   is a lot easier than quitting

00:02:32   just because of the things you say.

00:02:34   So my mom, I don't even know if my mom's on Facebook.

00:02:36   I don't think she is, but I know I have family.

00:02:39   I've got my sister, I'm sure she is.

00:02:41   I think it would be, there is no awkward moment

00:02:43   where I've stopped liking her pictures of her kids

00:02:46   on Facebook because I never was in the first place.

00:02:49   - Right.

00:02:49   - It's that, and it's also, you know,

00:02:52   all the services throughout the years,

00:02:53   there's still a number of ones that I've like,

00:02:55   offed in through Facebook, where I'll come across,

00:02:57   you know, something that I'm trying to log into,

00:02:59   and I'm like, God, I, and I don't have like,

00:03:01   the password saved in one password or whatever,

00:03:03   I'm like, what is, what is my password?

00:03:05   And then I realize, oh, I offed in through Facebook,

00:03:07   and it's like, I probably have a dozen services like that.

00:03:10   - I did a bunch like that with Twitter,

00:03:12   just for the, I thinking like, well,

00:03:15   I know I've got my Twitter account secure, quote unquote,

00:03:18   But I really don't now that I think about it, because they use the phone number as the

00:03:22   second off.

00:03:23   That's really not that great.

00:03:26   So in hindsight, but this is like three, four years ago, I felt like my Twitter was very

00:03:30   safe.

00:03:31   And so I'd sign up for accounts in news services using my Twitter ID and have since

00:03:37   come to regret that every time.

00:03:39   And I'm slowly, but when I realized that I like unwind it and see if there's, is there

00:03:43   a way that I can magically switch to a regular login for X, Y, or Z service.

00:03:49   Yeah, and I'm the same way, and obviously to a greater extent with Facebook given all

00:03:53   we're talking about, but it's just like, you know, when you're signing up for all these

00:03:58   new services as, you know, as I had to back in the day as a journalist and now as an investor,

00:04:03   obviously still signing up for almost as many, if not more, and it's like, am I going to

00:04:07   enter my email and come up with a password every single time for something that I may

00:04:11   maybe gonna use once, and so it's so enticing

00:04:14   to just click the button of sign in with Facebook

00:04:16   or Google or Twitter, even now.

00:04:19   - Yeah.

00:04:20   It's funny that Apple never got into that.

00:04:22   There has never been a sign in

00:04:23   to third-party services with your iCloud.

00:04:26   - Yeah, they would have been,

00:04:28   I mean, especially these days,

00:04:30   they could certainly upsell that as a strong security

00:04:34   and privacy component doing something like that

00:04:37   with your iCloud account.

00:04:38   I think they should do that.

00:04:40   I don't know why they why they don't I mean, it's not technically easy

00:04:43   I'm sure but it seems like a huge thing that they could offer. Yeah, it's just a just a thought

00:04:49   As we go through all the privacy

00:04:52   The privacy wars that's what we'll look back on this era as

00:04:56   so anyway

00:04:58   The whole parent game is treating you well

00:05:00   Yeah, it's every day is is something new and crazy

00:05:04   But it's I feel like I have my feet at least a little bit under me until something changes tomorrow

00:05:09   But yeah, it's good at seven months. Let me think about this is she's she's probably she's rolling over for sure, right?

00:05:15   Yeah, she rolls around not crawling yet. Yeah, she's mainly sleeping through the night, which is awesome

00:05:21   Some nights obviously are different. She's also teething so that can affect that a little bit and

00:05:26   But yeah, it's it's uh, it's it's pretty awesome

00:05:29   It's a long time for me. My son is 15 feels like a very long time

00:05:34   And so he's our only kid but but the teething thing was interesting because you think well, yeah, but I'm sure that hurts

00:05:40   But then it's like when their gums hurt it it is like must be excruciating

00:05:45   It makes sense that it would be like there's a tooth cutting through their gum

00:05:49   But then the other thing is that you kind of feel like like a genius doctor on TV. You're like I've got it

00:05:55   It's teething and it's like right, right

00:05:57   Ice cold pacifier, you know that's in the freezer get that and and let her suck on this

00:06:03   You know ice cold thing or put a little bit of that or a gel or whatever it was

00:06:07   Works and you're like, holy crap. I solved the problem

00:06:11   Yeah, when when she was first going through it, of course, we were like what is going on? Why is she crying like?

00:06:17   She's been fed. She's been changed all going through the checklist and then it's like you just put your finger in her mouth

00:06:22   It's like oh, yeah, that's why yeah

00:06:24   My other thing too is is around that age

00:06:28   It's one of my favorite like to me like holy crap parenting moments was the beginning to roll over because

00:06:35   There's like newborn and newborn. It's like I don't know that those weeks are a blur and it's like oh my god

00:06:42   We've got a baby. We've got a baby and it's like you just

00:06:45   You know and then all of a sudden you're like a month in and the kid feels sturdier you feel more confident

00:06:51   You know, yeah, and and you you get used to being able to put the baby down

00:06:55   (laughs)

00:06:58   Walk away and do something and then come back

00:07:01   and the baby is right where you left them.

00:07:03   It's like you can put a cup of coffee down

00:07:05   and then you could go do something

00:07:06   and when you come back, the cup of coffee is still there.

00:07:09   Once the kid starts rolling over,

00:07:11   it is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what do we do?

00:07:13   What do we do?

00:07:14   We can never put this kid down.

00:07:16   - Yeah, so we have this product called Nanit,

00:07:20   which is like a newfangled baby monitor.

00:07:22   So it's a camera that overlooks the entire crib

00:07:25   so you can get a bird's eye view of the whole crib.

00:07:27   And it runs all night and it's, and it actually, you know,

00:07:30   it has iPhone and iPad apps.

00:07:32   So we basically have an iPad that sits at the bedside

00:07:36   so we can sort of monitor and just when, you know,

00:07:38   I'll jolt up at 4 a.m. and wonder like,

00:07:40   how's Maisie doing?

00:07:41   And then I'll just look on the monitor and I can see.

00:07:43   And, but what's really funny about that is now

00:07:46   with her rolling and just moving around, I mean,

00:07:48   she does at least, I would say three full turns a night,

00:07:53   just like it's not even clear how she does it with, you know,

00:07:56   given her length and sort of the size of the sides of the crib. But it's like,

00:08:00   she's, she's like a clock moving around the thing.

00:08:03   Curly from the three Stooges down there on the ground.

00:08:05   Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right. Um, yeah. So it's, it's funny to watch though.

00:08:11   The next one coming up and then, and then it,

00:08:14   to me it's just the biggest landmark is the first day you come in and she's

00:08:18   standing up in the crib. Yeah. Uh, yeah.

00:08:22   Because the thing about it is it's like you think well you're gonna be blown you you you and your partner are gonna be blown

00:08:26   Away, the parents are gonna be like, whoa

00:08:28   You know the baby standing up but the thing with at least with Jonas was he was like, yeah, look at me

00:08:34   Look at me. I got something now. I've got something. Yeah, he's just giving us this look like I've got a super game has changed. Yeah

00:08:41   I'm very happy for you. Thank you. Thank you

00:08:47   I I don't know what you want to get started with but I was gonna start with Apple in the original content

00:08:52   stuff and I thought you you've had a lot to say about it since their event you know I missed that

00:08:57   event yeah I was gonna ask you I didn't I it seemed like you didn't that was what is that one

00:09:02   of the only ones you've ever missed then I missed since I started getting press invitations around

00:09:09   26 2006 or so maybe 2005 like with Macworlds I've missed two I had I had eye surgery

00:09:21   a couple years ago, like 2014, and Quinton was not allowed to fly. And then this last

00:09:27   one I missed because we had a long-standing vacation for my son's spring break that I

00:09:32   didn't want to miss.

00:09:33   Got it. So that's interesting. So like me, and I, you know, I haven't been, I haven't

00:09:37   been to one in a while. I used to go, so, you know, there's this whole interesting dynamic

00:09:42   with obviously the place I've worked for the past six years now has been GV, which is Google

00:09:47   so Google's our only LP.

00:09:49   And I think the Google-Apple relationship these days

00:09:51   is a lot better than it was,

00:09:53   but there was a time there where I was still working

00:09:57   in the earlier days at GV

00:09:58   and I was still going to the Apple events,

00:10:00   but those sort of invites dwindled over the years.

00:10:04   And also, of course, I have a day-to-day job,

00:10:06   and so the Monday morning event is not very conducive

00:10:11   to the Monday morning VC partner meeting.

00:10:13   So I haven't been to one in, I don't know,

00:10:17   like three or four years in person.

00:10:19   I watch them all when they're live streaming.

00:10:21   I think they're all live streaming these days, right?

00:10:22   So I don't watch them often in real time,

00:10:25   but I'll watch the, you know, the after,

00:10:28   play it afterwards.

00:10:29   And so I've seen them all, but yeah,

00:10:31   it's been a long time since I've been in the room.

00:10:32   So interesting that we'll have the same perspective

00:10:36   being from afar.

00:10:37   - Yeah, and I wonder how different that would be,

00:10:40   especially for this last event,

00:10:42   which I thought was so strange.

00:10:43   - Yes, very strange. - And deliberately so.

00:10:45   Like I don't think they messed up and it was strange.

00:10:48   I think they plotted out a very unusual event.

00:10:51   Do you watch the Game of Thrones?

00:10:54   - Yeah, oh yes.

00:10:55   - So I'm a Game of Thrones watcher.

00:10:57   And I'm just, I don't wanna spoil anything.

00:11:01   So anybody out there who's either got it queued up

00:11:04   or hasn't watched yet.

00:11:05   - I've already said a couple things online

00:11:08   and people are like, you know, I tweeted out a GIF

00:11:10   and like people are so pissed.

00:11:13   - You gotta be careful, you know what I mean?

00:11:14   you know. But the one thing that hit me watching it this week, and you know, for those of you

00:11:23   who don't know, and I can't even believe how that is possible, Game of Thrones is this

00:11:26   incredibly popular show on HBO. It's in its eighth and final season. I think that there's

00:11:32   only six episodes this season? Is that correct?

00:11:35   Yeah, yeah, six. And that was the third. This week's was the third. So right. So we're halfway

00:11:39   through. So there's only three episodes left of this incredibly long running epic tale with

00:11:46   literally 5060 characters, maybe more. Like somebody who runs like the Game of Thrones wiki

00:11:52   is like bursting or laughing right now. Right? Main characters mean, but the thing that really

00:11:59   hit me was the I think HBO gets it right. HBO still releases the show that good old fashioned way

00:12:07   where Sunday at 9 o'clock p.m. your local time it hits HBO and if you're streaming it I don't know

00:12:14   if they how they do that like do they just go by your time zone like if you're in California and

00:12:18   you've got like you know so it goes up at east coast 9 p.m east coast time so 6 p.m on the way

00:12:24   you can watch it at six o'clock all right I think I remember that from the sopranos I was I happened

00:12:28   to be in California for some probably an apple event when the sopranos finale went on and I

00:12:34   Now that you mention it, I think we did watch it like six.

00:12:37   Could you imagine if they didn't do that with social media and everything?

00:12:40   Like, yeah, they would be up in arms. Yeah, I think they have to do that. Yeah,

00:12:43   it's like a sporting event. Right. As opposed to Netflix, which has when they, you know,

00:12:49   like a new season of Stranger Things comes out, it is just like, boom, there's 10 episodes of

00:12:55   Stranger Things. If you'd like to watch them all in a row, go ahead, you know, make make some coffee.

00:13:00   I like the HBO way better.

00:13:02   - So it's interesting.

00:13:03   I wrote a post about this probably a few years ago

00:13:06   at this point already, because I was thinking

00:13:07   about the exact same thing.

00:13:09   And I was thinking about it actually in the context

00:13:11   of "Stranger Things," which is a Netflix show, of course.

00:13:13   It's, I think, coming back for its third season this year.

00:13:15   And I think it was after season one, it became

00:13:18   like a phenomenon.

00:13:19   And the weird thing about it was the weird thing

00:13:22   about all Netflix shows that they dumped them all at once,

00:13:24   dating back to "House of Cards," right?

00:13:26   When it was a completely new approach to do this.

00:13:29   But with these sort of these cultural phenomenon things that take over like Stranger Things,

00:13:33   it's fascinating because when they're dumped all at once, the water cooler effect is very different

00:13:41   because there is no episode by episode talking about it. I mean there is, but it's not coordinated

00:13:47   or synced because everyone's in a different place, right, depending on how fast they're watching it.

00:13:52   And so it almost, I agree with you for a good portion of shows, again these ones that are sort

00:13:59   sort of these cultural moments, I think that it sort of is almost behooves them to do the

00:14:05   Netflix or sorry, the HBO model, where you release them at a regular cadence, just to

00:14:10   build up anticipation. And again, to be able to talk about them with other people in real

00:14:15   time, and all be sort of coordinated around the same thing versus trying to talk about,

00:14:20   you know, 60 hours of content in one fell swoop is is impossible.

00:14:24   Right. And House of Cards. Well, I would say Stranger Things, too. They're both classic

00:14:32   serial melodrama, where, you know, dating back to the 1800s, when Dickens would be writing

00:14:41   his, you know, what we now think of as novels, they were all published serially chapter by

00:14:45   chapter in I don't know if they were magazines or newspapers, but you know, but you'd read,

00:14:50   the next chapter of A Tale of Two Cities, and it would end with some kind of cliffhanger,

00:14:55   and then all of a sudden you're there, you know, your fists in anger. Get me next week's issue.

00:15:00   It's no different, you know, than, you know, certain famous episodes of House of Cards where

00:15:08   crazy things happen at the very end of the episode. Stranger things, certainly, you know,

00:15:12   there's, you can see it that you're not meant to start the next episode. You're meant to,

00:15:16   you're meant to absorb that bizarre ending. I totally agree with you. And right, especially

00:15:21   for these cliffhanger endings, it's like if you can go on to the next one, what is the point of

00:15:24   the cliffhanger? Either cliffhanger or like big shocking reveal. Yes, totally, totally. And so

00:15:30   I wouldn't be shocked. And I think there's already been rumors of this. Maybe they've even talked

00:15:35   about like some of the upcoming shows may, you know, go back to that model. I mean, I know

00:15:40   Netflix in the past has said that they don't want to do that, but sort of like they don't want to

00:15:44   release movies in theaters and now they had to do that for Academy Award reasons, right?

00:15:49   I feel like I would be surprised if they didn't eventually sort of cave to the creators in this

00:15:55   regard and be like, if a creator just really wants to have that type of experience for their

00:16:00   audience, like, why not allow them to do that? I think that that's a no-brainer. And then, you

00:16:05   know, once it's out there in the world, then you can stream it and like, so people watch it after

00:16:08   the fact and stream them all at once. But if you're watching in real time, just do it at a

00:16:11   regular cadence release them and it really seems to me I mean part of it is that I enjoyed

00:16:17   the anticipation. Yeah, I like that. You know, it's the same way of like being a sports fan

00:16:21   like it neat like when your team gets in the playoffs and you know when the next game is,

00:16:27   you know, yeah, it's neat to have that looking it's like something to look forward to all

00:16:31   week long. I like yeah, that comes Sunday. I've got a next episode of Game of Thrones

00:16:35   and I totally agree and it also it it allows those individual episodes to sort of stand on their own

00:16:42   more they're not cheapened because you know that you're just like an onslaught and you won't

00:16:46   remember everything there's also like the added benefit of just being able to talk about it for

00:16:51   a week right like those some of the things that I love now are you know the ringer does their

00:16:55   after show for game of thrones they've been doing it for a while they used to do it on HBO itself

00:17:00   and now they do it on Twitter, actually. I think it's Talk to Thrones. And right after it ends,

00:17:06   they get on, they just go on Periscope or whatever, and just it's a roundtable discussion.

00:17:10   And it's like, those things are great. And you cannot do that when you just dump all the

00:17:13   content at once. Right? It is, you know, we're losing, collectively, our shared experiences,

00:17:19   you know, like, you know, I mean, but I'm not that this is not a genius observation. Everybody

00:17:22   talks about this. But the fact that, you know, TV used to be entirely there was no streaming in the

00:17:27   old days and there was no TiVo, there were no DVRs, everybody watched Happy Days at eight o'clock,

00:17:33   whether you liked it or not. But combine that, like the internet is why we've lost a lot of that

00:17:42   simultaneous viewing, but when we do, we get to share it together with Twitter or whatever.

00:17:50   Yes. Yeah. Um, and so I feel like,

00:17:55   cause a lot of people are talking, you know,

00:17:56   given the end of game of thrones now about this being the last one of these,

00:18:00   right? That last sort of show, there will still be sports of course,

00:18:03   but the last show that sort of this, uh,

00:18:05   come together moments for multiple people because so many people are watching it.

00:18:10   You know,

00:18:10   tens of millions of people every single week are watching it at the same time

00:18:13   basically. And that will that ever happen again? And I do think like,

00:18:16   I think that's a huge opportunity for something like Twitter,

00:18:19   potentially Facebook and some of the other

00:18:21   straight social services

00:18:23   because there is this like, you know, there it's the the best example of sort of the second screen thing where in sports is another example

00:18:31   Of it where these things that are happening in real time and people want to talk about them

00:18:34   It feels like they can be the glue that that sort of makes that happen

00:18:39   But you can't do that if everyone's not watching it at the same time. Yeah, so

00:18:46   Here's just a funny example. So the Sixers I'm kind of falling in love with the Sixers

00:18:50   I've been out of the NBA for a number of years other than as a casual fan, but I'm yeah

00:18:54   I want to have you know, this is that's my home team. I like your Sixers. I like these guys

00:18:58   I like the weird that it's a weird team just in terms of how they're put together

00:19:02   And they're playing last night

00:19:06   Up in Toronto down one right him to know and they're the Sixers are blowing a lead it not blowing it

00:19:11   But the Toronto hit a couple of three pointers and the Sixers missed a couple of shots and

00:19:15   all of a sudden, you know, a comfortable nine point lead was down to three, right fouled.

00:19:20   There's 3.8 seconds left Sixers only have a three point lead and our power went out.

00:19:24   I was just like, what the hell just happened? I and we've lived at this place now for two years

00:19:33   power has never gone out. There was no there were no storms in the area. It wasn't it wasn't

00:19:37   actually a very nice night. I was like, I guess the power's out. And then I went outside.

00:19:42   We have like a townhouse, so we have a whole bunch of neighbors. And I go out and every

00:19:46   single guy, every single man who lives on our block was out there. And everybody's like,

00:19:51   what happened to the Sixers? What happened to the Sixers? And somebody had it on their

00:19:54   phone. They're like, Sixers won. They won by four or something like that. And we're like,

00:19:57   all right, what the hell's, what the heck's going on with the power? Like the first thing

00:20:01   we all asked was what happened with the Sixers. And I thought, you know, this is kind of funny.

00:20:05   I would be doing this on Twitter, but I wouldn't be doing it with my neighbors, but it's just kind of a nice moment

00:20:09   Have a little neighborly friendship there and everybody was I like that. Yeah a good bad thing

00:20:15   It's sort of this also reminds me of something else

00:20:18   I've sort of been thinking about and wrote about recently where so in a world where we're moving away from this

00:20:24   Imagine if there's a way and so a lot of people I haven't seen it yet

00:20:28   But a lot of people obviously are talking about event the new Avengers movie, right?

00:20:31   Obviously, it's hard to see movies with babies, but I'm still getting used to that.

00:20:37   So I think we're going to try to go this weekend.

00:20:39   But anyway, so I can't spoil anything for anyone.

00:20:41   But everyone's talking about the resurrection of the movie theater, right, after years and

00:20:45   years of declines.

00:20:46   And now it made over $350 million, I think, at the US box office, right, over the weekend

00:20:50   and well over a billion dollars worldwide.

00:20:52   So it's like the resurrection of the movie theater.

00:20:54   And I think this ties into what we're talking about because I had been thinking about what

00:20:59   What if they did Game of Thrones the last season, they just released it at least to

00:21:04   start, at least for, you know, maybe on a Thursday night before the Sunday premiere

00:21:08   on HBO, if they just released it in theaters nationwide.

00:21:11   Like how much money could HBO have made, you know, from their perspective, but also what

00:21:15   a cool like cultural, you know, experience again, right?

00:21:18   You get to go to a movie theater and watch this very cinematic show on a giant screen

00:21:24   with hundreds of other people around you and people are cheering and popcorn and all that,

00:21:28   the great things about sort of the old school movie going experience you know can be brought

00:21:34   back to life by things that are this this big in this culture a little culture really

00:21:40   relevant it feels like it would be something one of my favorite stories about the the group

00:21:47   cinematic experience is your movie fan I bet you've seen that if you raging bull yeah so

00:21:54   So Raging Bulls, Martin Scorsese's 1980 boxing movie about, what was his name, Ray?

00:22:00   - Ray LaMota.

00:22:01   - Tragic movie overall.

00:22:03   Tragic tale of a man who's sort of a broken man.

00:22:07   A bad man, really.

00:22:08   But it's a very sad movie, mostly.

00:22:10   First time I ever watched it, I was by myself in college.

00:22:14   I had a job interview in like Virginia.

00:22:17   And so this company flew me down and put me up in a hotel

00:22:21   and I had an interview the next day.

00:22:23   And I had nothing to do.

00:22:24   I was like 19, had nothing to do, and put on HBO,

00:22:28   and I looked at it and it said like,

00:22:30   "Raging Bull" was coming up.

00:22:31   I was like, "I've never seen that, I'll watch that."

00:22:33   And I watched it all by myself, lonesome hotel room.

00:22:36   - Very depressing black and white.

00:22:38   - Yeah, and I was just, I was into it.

00:22:40   I would say I enjoyed the movie,

00:22:43   but I didn't enjoy the experience.

00:22:45   I really felt pretty low afterwards.

00:22:47   - Yeah, yeah.

00:22:49   - And then I've watched it a couple of times after that

00:22:52   in the intervening years in college,

00:22:54   it's just as a huge Scorsese fan.

00:22:56   But then at one point in the mid 90s,

00:22:58   I think I might've still been in college,

00:22:59   but maybe later in the 90s,

00:23:01   Roger Ebert came to Philadelphia and was hosting,

00:23:05   he was hosting a screening of "Raging Bull."

00:23:08   It might've been like the 25th anniversary

00:23:10   or 15th anniversary or something.

00:23:12   And he didn't do the thing that he sometimes did

00:23:14   where he would allow people to say stop

00:23:16   and then you stop the movie

00:23:17   and then have like a discussion about what's going on.

00:23:19   And we just watched it straight through

00:23:21   And then we had a discussion led by Roger Ebert after the movie and it was packed.

00:23:26   It's a really nice theater over at Penn, sort of like a lecture hall style thing.

00:23:30   It was a great picture. Great sound. Here's the thing that blew me away. Raging bull is hilarious.

00:23:35   It is. There are scenes that are so funny. I mean, just like it, but never like three,

00:23:43   four times I watched it before that never left once because I wasn't in a theater full of people.

00:23:47   right? It's like one of the scenes where, uh, Patsy, Joe, Patsy's having family,

00:23:52   some kind of family meal and his kids screwing around with a spaghetti or something. It's

00:23:55   but you would never know it if you're not in a room full of people. It's the shared experience

00:24:00   is different than the, the, the solo experience. Yeah. And I, and I totally agree. And you know,

00:24:06   these, the, yeah, you get sort of different social cues just in a vibe, right. Of being in a,

00:24:11   being in that type of experience. And I do feel like all the, the Hollywood has a bunch of issues

00:24:17   and we can talk about them in relation to Apple, but I think that there's a way to sort of

00:24:22   to utilize what is great about the theaters in our new fangled era. And I think we're getting close

00:24:29   to it, but we're not quite there yet. And maybe the Avengers like the fact that that it's so big,

00:24:35   maybe it tips it over into figuring out how to better utilize these shared spaces to do

00:24:39   content like this. My Avengers story, I'm going to break your heart here. Newborn dad. It's the

00:24:46   It's the first Avengers movie that I didn't go see with my son because he wanted to go

00:24:49   with his friends.

00:24:50   Oh yes, that would be extremely sad.

00:24:53   I mean, I'm gearing up for all the fun stuff that we're going to get to do in the next,

00:24:57   you know, many years, but all the Disney movies, right?

00:25:00   The Pixar movies, Harry Potter, all that kind of fun stuff is what I'm greatly looking forward

00:25:06   to.

00:25:07   And then I know that at one point it'll get to the point you're at.

00:25:11   I'm telling you the truth mg I choked up because he he's such a good kid and he knew you know

00:25:18   He knew that it's a thing that we had and I was already planning on getting tickets for us

00:25:21   And he didn't ask if he could go what he did is he texted me and just said hey

00:25:25   Some of my friends are getting tickets to go see the Avengers

00:25:28   Yeah, and I immediately just wrote go, you know exclamation mark and I went up and said hey, you know

00:25:34   You need help ordering, you know, you know, do you want my credit card? What do you need to do?

00:25:38   You know and I was like just go, you know, I was like do not worry about me

00:25:41   But then I went downstairs and had a sob

00:25:43   Okay, that's one of my note for me to remember number one I mean and Joan Jonas has always been

00:25:53   He's a gentle kid. He really is he always was he was never like a rough-and-tumble kid

00:25:58   And so we let him watch movies that a lot of other parents wouldn't let watch

00:26:04   Movies at a pretty young age and I don't you know, he it wasn't like we were pushing him on him

00:26:09   I just think he was fine. I think other parents, you know other parenting styles

00:26:12   I pass no judgment, but Jonas watched movies like Star Wars and stuff starting at like the age of three or four

00:26:17   So he was in kindergarten. He'd already seen Iron Man

00:26:21   and

00:26:23   I went I told him that he had a dentist appointment in the afternoon. So yeah, I'd be picking him up at lunch

00:26:28   And I went to get him at lunch and I said we're not going to the dentist

00:26:32   I got tickets for Iron Man 2.

00:26:34   Like really and I was like, oh yeah

00:26:38   And we went to see Iron Man 2 and I didn't I'm not like I was never been a prankster parent

00:26:45   I've never been you know

00:26:46   And like I was telling a friend of the show John Moltz about this and he was like well

00:26:50   That's better than the opposite the type of parent who says hey, we're going to see our

00:26:59   the jokey parent, I just didn't trust him to have a good poker face with the teacher

00:27:04   because I kind of didn't want to be the dad who the teacher knew was taking kids to see

00:27:08   Iron Man on a Friday afternoon.

00:27:09   That's amazing. I am totally stealing that. Hopefully, Maisie's not listening to this

00:27:14   in six years or something and I'll be able to surprise her.

00:27:19   Parenting tips from Sean Gruber. All right, let me take a break here and thank our first

00:27:25   sponsor. They're back from last week. Things, one of my very favorite apps. Last week, I

00:27:29   told you a lot about their Mac app. This week I'm going to tell you a little bit more about

00:27:33   their iOS app. But look, things is a long standing, multi time Apple design award winning,

00:27:39   basically a to do app task manager, something to organize everything from like a shopping

00:27:43   list to bigger projects. beautifully designed has always been beautiful with truly native

00:27:48   apps for the Mac, iPhone, iPad, they have a great Apple Watch app, simple to use as

00:27:53   lots and lots of power. And this power extends to their iOS apps in a big way. You know,

00:27:59   that feeling where you want to accomplish something, you got something to do, but you

00:28:02   think I'll just wait till I get back to my Mac. I do this all the time with a lot of

00:28:06   things. We could turn this whole show into that. Well, that's something that things wanted

00:28:11   to address and they really went deep on how they can reduce that friction on iPhone and

00:28:15   iPad and make you just do it right. Be able to do it right there. And so their apps are

00:28:19   full of clever solutions to help you achieve this, but they want me to tell you about just

00:28:23   two. The first is the magic plus button. This is brilliant. I never would have thought of

00:28:28   this and it gets super clever. Something you do all the time in list apps of any kind,

00:28:32   any kind of app where you make lists, you insert new items, but you want to put them

00:28:35   in a certain spot. In most apps, it's really cumbersome. You do the plus button, you enter

00:28:40   your to do item text, and then it's all the way at the top, right? But you want it somewhere

00:28:45   else. So then you have to tap an edit button and then there's like a little drag handle

00:28:49   that shows up and then you can drag it down to where you want it to be. What a pain. In

00:28:53   things you can drag the plus button itself to where you want your to do to go. So you

00:28:59   just go to the plus button, drag it down into the list and let go when it's at the right

00:29:04   spot type your to do boom, you're done and it's in the right spot. Brilliant. What a

00:29:09   great shortcut. Here's the other thing they have full keyboard control on the iPad. So

00:29:14   if you use your iPad with an external keyboard, you know that most apps don't have great keyboard

00:29:18   support. That's from things a little read for me. I would say that is an understatement

00:29:25   to say the least. Things is incredible in this regard. They've got loads of shortcuts

00:29:29   for creating to do's setting dates, adding tags, filters, and so on. You can list all

00:29:35   the commands. Now this is something system wide on the iPad. You just hold down the command

00:29:39   key and you wait a little bit and you get little HUD display that tells you all the

00:29:43   available keyboard shortcuts, which is a really great idea as system wide, but it's not

00:29:48   that great if you don't have a lot of shortcuts. Well, things does. You can learn them very

00:29:52   easily. Just hold down the command key. All of this stuff is accessible from the keyboard

00:29:57   and you can use your arrow keys to select items. You shift all the stuff that works

00:30:01   on the Mac. It all works on things on the iPad. You shift with the arrow keys to select

00:30:06   multiple items. You can move items up and down and list all by the keyboard. It's great.

00:30:12   Even their popovers are fully accessible from the keyboard. There's a really cool feature

00:30:16   called Type Travel, you simply start typing where you want to go, like the name of a project

00:30:20   or an area or another list, and you're automatically just taken there just by typing the name of

00:30:25   it. It's amazing how much you can do in things without even lifting your hand off the keyboard,

00:30:30   which is a huge deal once you've got your iPad propped up and you've got a hardware

00:30:33   keyboard connected. It is seriously a very, very powerful peer to the Mac app on the iPad.

00:30:39   I wish more iPad apps would take this sort of keyboard support as seriously as things

00:30:46   does.

00:30:47   So those are just two examples of how things deliver a powerful experience on iOS and there's

00:30:51   so much more.

00:30:52   Head over to thingsapp.com and you can get things for iOS, try it for yourself and you

00:30:59   can also download a free trial for the Mac at thingsapp.com.

00:31:04   Check it out today.

00:31:05   One of my favorite apps, I use it every day.

00:31:08   I really do.

00:31:08   All right, so let's go back to Apple in this.

00:31:12   What do you think Apple's gonna do on this front?

00:31:13   And do you think Apple's gonna go HBO style

00:31:15   and release shows once a week?

00:31:16   Or you think they're gonna go Netflix style and dump them?

00:31:18   - I would guess that they do more HBO style.

00:31:24   I don't know why exactly I feel that way

00:31:27   other than I think that's what they should do.

00:31:29   I think given what we know now

00:31:31   or what we think we know what they're trying to do, right?

00:31:34   There's obviously a lot still to be determined,

00:31:36   including price and a bunch of other key things,

00:31:39   but it does seem like it's less,

00:31:42   and people have been saying this, right,

00:31:43   that it's less of a Netflix competitor

00:31:45   and more of an HBO type play

00:31:47   and also more of an Amazon type play, right,

00:31:49   where it's like the channel bundling on top of everything.

00:31:52   And so given all of that,

00:31:54   I do think that the HBO model makes a lot more sense.

00:31:58   Do you think so too?

00:31:59   - I do too.

00:32:00   And I know, I'm sure that there are some people out there

00:32:03   who love the Netflix style.

00:32:04   They love the dump and they're gonna say,

00:32:07   well, Jon, if you wanna watch it once a week,

00:32:08   just pick a time, pick your favorite day of the week

00:32:11   and watch one episode of Stranger Things,

00:32:14   dole them out yourself one episode at a week.

00:32:17   But that's part of the experience

00:32:19   isn't just me watching once a week.

00:32:21   It's like what you and I have been talking about here.

00:32:23   It's this collective experience and shared,

00:32:26   give it a day or two for people to catch up

00:32:28   and you can start reading stuff on Twitter

00:32:30   or the recaps and stuff like that.

00:32:33   see what people think is going on.

00:32:35   - I also think it gives them a nice leverage point

00:32:38   of if they do, if they are in fact,

00:32:40   it seems like they're doing the upsell of the other channels

00:32:43   if you do it this way, you're basically giving people

00:32:46   an avenue to come into the app every single week, right?

00:32:49   To catch up with the show and then afterwards

00:32:51   they have to watch something else

00:32:52   or they're likely going to, you know,

00:32:53   some people of course won't, but a lot of people will

00:32:55   and because they can't watch that very next episode

00:32:58   of what they were just watching, maybe they'll poke around

00:33:00   and be like, oh yeah, we should watch

00:33:02   What's next on Showtime right or?

00:33:04   Check out one of these other shows on Apple TV or whatever

00:33:07   But yeah, if you could definitely if they if if the if they can steer you towards, you know, I forget if CBS is

00:33:15   Already signed up for the TV app, but you know, maybe check out the Star Trek that you haven't haven't watched yet or something like that

00:33:21   Yeah, I don't know. I just feel to me that the Netflix style is

00:33:26   it's almost tragic, you know that they make these wonderful shows and

00:33:31   and don't give them the space to breathe.

00:33:35   - Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you run across it too.

00:33:37   It's like Megan and I,

00:33:39   like every time we sit down to watch something,

00:33:41   if we don't have something in mind,

00:33:43   it's just like we're going through the Netflix app

00:33:46   and it's like, I mean,

00:33:48   I can't believe that this person's in this thing.

00:33:50   Like I've never even heard of this.

00:33:51   Like can't believe this person's in this thing

00:33:52   and I've never heard of this.

00:33:53   There's so many, so many things.

00:33:56   And it really, I mean, it's like,

00:33:57   it's not only the, you know,

00:33:59   sort of the abundance of choice problem.

00:34:00   It's like that to such an extreme that I don't know,

00:34:05   I don't even know what the end game is of that, right?

00:34:09   Do they get so good at the algorithms to recommend to you

00:34:12   that it doesn't matter, and so they have people

00:34:14   to watch all of these things?

00:34:16   It seems like they, I just feel like that's untenable.

00:34:19   At some point, we're going to hit a limit

00:34:21   of how many shows they can actually have.

00:34:23   - Yeah, like I wrote the other day, writing about this,

00:34:27   I described Netflix's catalog as effectively infinite,

00:34:30   I didn't expound on that but I don't think I need to write like I think even if you were

00:34:37   independently wealthy or retired and

00:34:40   It could literally just wake up and start watching Netflix and then go to bed and wake up and watch Netflix

00:34:47   You'll never catch up. Yeah, you'll you'll go further behind once you you know by day one

00:34:52   You'll be further behind than you were when you started

00:34:55   Yeah, and I sort of wonder if I guess that so eventually all of the players are you would presume

00:35:00   Most of them are going to pull their content right like friends

00:35:04   They just resigned but it was a massive deal and Disney is pulling all their content as we know to do Disney Plus and so

00:35:10   Eventually, it's just not gonna be tenable to have all of these other bits of content

00:35:14   And it's all gonna be Netflix content. And what are they doing right now?

00:35:17   They're building up a library of content

00:35:19   The world has never seen before the size of which the world has never seen before and so

00:35:24   It won't matter so much if all these people pull off their content because you have so much else that you couldn't possibly watch

00:35:30   Yeah, it's in some ways. I really feel like

00:35:33   Like anything successful they you know HBO

00:35:38   It is sort of like Showtime, but it's different. I mean, it's the same basic idea

00:35:44   It's it started life as a cable channel that you have to pay extra money to and they have a bunch of real

00:35:50   theatrical movies available at any given time and sometimes they have boxing and

00:35:55   you know, but have you know in recent years have really made a name by their original content and

00:36:02   But HBO is HBO, right? They've sort of made their own brand Netflix even more so because they're

00:36:08   undefined by any previous

00:36:10   tie to to real quote unquote real TV

00:36:14   It's its own thing. Like it's it's not that useful to me

00:36:18   I don't think it'll in the long run to compare Apple TV+ to Netflix or

00:36:22   And Netflix is just it's just bizarre. But if you're gonna compare it to anything

00:36:26   I almost feel like the only thing you can compare it to is YouTube

00:36:29   Because YouTube content is very different than yeah Netflix content

00:36:34   But but the thing that's unique about those two is that they are literally infinite content wells and they promote

00:36:41   You know, they try to get you to just keep going right you get to the end of a video

00:36:46   But their guesses are pretty good. Usually, you know the little things on the right on YouTube are usually pretty appealing to me

00:36:52   After I've watched something. Yeah, that's that's a good way to frame it. I you know, they are both

00:36:58   similar in the infinite content you almost feel like

00:37:02   Do we do we get to a state of equilibrium?

00:37:04   Because we I think we all agree that everyone's going to have a subset of these, right?

00:37:09   So everyone already has YouTube because it's free those that there's obviously the YouTube red stuff

00:37:13   But just say you have YouTube because it's free everyone has Netflix, of course because you basically need to these days

00:37:18   A lot of people probably the majority people are going to get Disney Plus

00:37:22   Apple TV Plus would probably be a smaller subset not too dissimilar to how HBO is a smaller subset

00:37:30   But then I wonder like is there a mechanism between the types of content and/or the stars of these things that they move

00:37:39   between them sort of fluidly, right? So someone might break their career on YouTube, and then get

00:37:44   a Netflix show, and or then get and then if their Netflix show works, do they go to the prestige

00:37:50   show of HBO and or Apple TV plus type thing? Does it does it sort of play out that way? I

00:37:55   think Netflix would not like that YouTube certainly wouldn't like that. But it's almost

00:37:58   feels like that's that's a ladder you can you can sort of see forming. Yeah.

00:38:04   I've seen a very frequently asked question for me in the last month is or at least maybe

00:38:12   it's weeks because I forget when Disney unveiled Disney plus but post Disney plus announcement

00:38:18   and the first time I got the question I thought it was so I see the appeal from a consumer's

00:38:23   perspective but I it seems so outlandish from Disney's perspective that I can't believe

00:38:29   anybody would ask but I've since been asked at least half a dozen times is do I think

00:38:33   Disney and Apple work out some kind of deal where you can pay 10 bucks a month and get

00:38:38   Apple TV plus and Disney plus. Yeah. And the consumer angle is, uh, is obvious. It's subscription

00:38:46   fatigue and, and both, both just from the purely rational perspective of wanting to

00:38:54   minimize your monthly subscription expenditure and the more subjective sense of just the

00:39:04   sense of feeling like you're getting nickel and dimed. Yep. So I see the appeal of that,

00:39:10   but I don't see why Disney would ever go for that at a sum of money, you know, at at at

00:39:16   699 for the regular subscription, they're already being super aggressive, like, yeah,

00:39:20   They're not going to cut into that by partnering with Apple.

00:39:24   They don't need to.

00:39:25   Yeah, I mean, you could argue-- because Bob Iger is obviously

00:39:28   still on the board of Apple, and that was brought up recently

00:39:30   as like, is that a conflict?

00:39:31   And he still says no, and we'll see how that plays out

00:39:34   as things move forward.

00:39:35   But I think--

00:39:37   That's what they used to say about Eric Schmidt.

00:39:39   They used to say about Eric Schmidt and Google.

00:39:41   And so I have a feeling that will play out maybe

00:39:43   in a similar way.

00:39:44   Who knows, because Bob Iger is set to retire at some point

00:39:47   in the next couple of years if he doesn't extend again,

00:39:49   which seems like he's not.

00:39:50   Anyway, the subscription fatigue thing is interesting.

00:39:53   I do think that a bunch of them will end up partnering.

00:39:56   So like we've already seen this in cross-content pollinization with like Spotify teams up with

00:40:02   Hulu, right, to do like sort of a package offering.

00:40:05   And so would we see that between bundles?

00:40:08   Obviously Disney's going to do their own bundle with Disney+, ESPN+, and then Hulu.

00:40:15   But do they cross-pollinate and have different offerings?

00:40:18   I think no, and again, I think from Apple's perspective,

00:40:21   they want to try what the Amazon model has been

00:40:24   of just upselling the channels,

00:40:26   and maybe they sell them at a different rate or a discount,

00:40:30   and maybe there's been some whispers, right,

00:40:32   that they can figure out a way to bundle

00:40:34   some of those together to create their own

00:40:37   like newfangled like HBO Plus stars or something like that.

00:40:40   Maybe there is something to that,

00:40:41   but I don't think, yeah, that Disney and Apple TV+,

00:40:46   Disney Plus and Apple TV Plus will bundle together

00:40:48   unless one of them just isn't working

00:40:51   or both of them are not working

00:40:52   and they need a way to sort of change the sales equation.

00:40:57   - Yeah, I still think, I had Peter Kafka on

00:41:01   a couple weeks ago to talk about this stuff.

00:41:03   And he remained, not convinced,

00:41:06   but his bet is still on Apple releasing Apple TV Plus free.

00:41:11   That they're not going to charge--

00:41:13   - So yeah, I was listening to that.

00:41:15   And I would love, yeah, I know your perspective

00:41:17   is different on this and mine is too.

00:41:18   I don't think, I think there's no way they do it for free.

00:41:22   I think that they have some parts of it that might be free,

00:41:26   like one show, but given the whole narrative right now

00:41:30   is around services, I think it would just undercut

00:41:33   their argument that they're trying to make to Wall Street

00:41:36   and everyone else that they're a services company now

00:41:39   if they just release this for free.

00:41:40   Like yes, it would be good lead gen to do this channel

00:41:44   selling model, which is maybe the real moneymaker, but I don't, I just,

00:41:48   I don't think that that's what they're going to do.

00:41:50   I think that it's going to be a definitely a paid offering.

00:41:54   And I think that they'll have their own bundle, which they will be, you know,

00:41:57   there's sort of one more thing when they talk about it further in the fall that

00:42:00   they'll have iCloud mixed with this mixed with some other things to be able to

00:42:04   bundle together.

00:42:04   Right. It's like, it is, it's,

00:42:08   I'm not complaining because it is fantastic grist for a podcaster and a,

00:42:14   and a commentator on the company

00:42:16   that they had this announcement

00:42:18   where they brought out all these stars

00:42:20   and then never told us if they're gonna pay charge for it

00:42:24   or if they are what.

00:42:26   So in a sense, I'm not complaining

00:42:29   because this is fantastic.

00:42:31   (laughing)

00:42:33   I'm gonna get hours out of this all summer long.

00:42:35   This is great.

00:42:36   I can see it either way.

00:42:37   And then I kind of feel like Peter had me convinced

00:42:40   like, yeah, they're just gonna release this for free

00:42:42   to get people in the boat

00:42:44   And his basic idea isn't that Apple is magnanimously going to make Apple TV plus free of charge.

00:42:52   His theory is where they want the only place where they want to make money in TV is selling

00:42:56   the other subscriptions with their 15% cut.

00:43:00   Right.

00:43:01   So right, get you in the Apple TV app by selling you on the Jennifer Aniston morning show.

00:43:07   And you find out all your friends are talking about that show.

00:43:10   And so you go and watch it and then you're in the app and you're a button click or two.

00:43:18   And you know, if you have an Apple TV, a couple of awkward swipes, you're a button or two

00:43:25   from signing up for other those channels as they call them.

00:43:32   And then you're on the hook for recurring revenue because now you're paying through

00:43:37   your iTunes account, you're paying 10 or 15 or $20 a month to get ESPN and Hulu and whatever

00:43:45   other channels you've decided you want to, you know, CBS interactive, whatever the CBS

00:43:49   thing is called, which right, I keep procrastinating. I want to watch that Star Trek show and I

00:43:53   keep procrastinating on it because I'm waiting for this TV app to do it so I don't have to

00:43:57   manage a different account.

00:43:58   I'm 100% with you there too. What if they did something like if you bought the Apple

00:44:05   TV for $200. This is baked in for a year. But if you're going to, because we already know this app

00:44:12   is going to exist on Samsung TVs and Roku and a bunch of other Amazon. Yeah, right. And so

00:44:20   what if then it's a paid thing? Because like, how could they do that? I mean, you could say that

00:44:24   they could do that for free because it's still trying to do the channels upsell, but that seems

00:44:28   a lot more murky. I don't think that they're going to do it for free across the board. I could see a

00:44:34   world in which they release it in a way that sort of appears to be free because it's baked into,

00:44:40   if you buy Apple TV hardware, maybe the iPad, maybe they have some sort of deal on it,

00:44:44   maybe you get six months free or something like that. But I also just think from the

00:44:48   other perspective, like the creator's perspective, I think they think that they're making, you know,

00:44:53   very prestigious programming. And I don't think that they want to be tied to sort of a free

00:44:58   offering necessarily knowing that the end game of that is probably not not a good a good outcome

00:45:05   ultimately if apple ever decides they're not going to pay you know all the money to them

00:45:09   just out of their their pockets yeah i don't know you know and and surely there is going to be

00:45:19   i say this because but apple often surprises us these days and doesn't do the obvious thing well

00:45:24   one thing i'll just say is that peter had me convinced that maybe they'll just give it away

00:45:28   And then I like the next morning woke up and I was just like that can't be for all the reasons you said

00:45:33   And then I thought well what's what's the most obvious apple thing to do and I thought well the

00:45:38   most obvious apple thing to do would be to charge way more than anybody thinks

00:45:42   Right like charge charge enough per month that there will be like gasps in the audience

00:45:49   And it feels premium then and like, you know, there's trickle-down effects of this even if they don't

00:45:54   I mean, even if the model is ultimately what Peter's saying, and I agree with that, that it is

00:45:59   likely to upsell these subscriptions for the channels, and it's the same thing that Amazon

00:46:03   does, the difference is Amazon gets away with it being sort of quote-unquote free if you have Prime,

00:46:09   which everyone does, right? Apple doesn't have the equivalent of that, so the only way I could see

00:46:13   that working is if they baked in, you know, eventually when they have their Apple Prime

00:46:17   thing, this is one subset of that, and so it's sort of considered free even though it's baked

00:46:21   into that. Right, right, maybe something like that. Yeah, that's what I think is I think

00:46:25   that what Apple needs is their equivalent of prime, where you it to, you know, to get

00:46:32   everybody paying a greater than $10 a month monthly fee, but less than 10 plus 10 plus

00:46:39   10 to get the news and to get the arcade and to get the TV and of course to get music,

00:46:45   you know, the original Apple media service.

00:46:48   - Right.

00:46:49   - So, you know, if you had music, news, arcade,

00:46:53   they didn't give a price for arcade either,

00:46:55   but I'm guessing that might be as if it's the only thing

00:46:57   you sign up for.

00:46:58   I'm gonna guess $10 a month, and if TV's $10 a month,

00:47:01   now you're up at 40 bucks a month,

00:47:02   and if they sold the whole thing for $25 a month.

00:47:05   - Yeah, great deal.

00:47:06   - And you got all of them.

00:47:07   You got all four of them.

00:47:08   All of a sudden, it feels like a good deal, right?

00:47:11   - Yep.

00:47:12   - That feels like a really good deal.

00:47:14   - And maybe you can mix and match, I don't know.

00:47:16   But if you could just, like if you really don't want

00:47:18   the news or you don't play games, you don't want the arcade,

00:47:21   you just want TV and music, if you could get it

00:47:24   for less than 20, if you could just pay 15

00:47:26   or something like that, that might be, I don't know,

00:47:29   that might be a way around it.

00:47:30   - Yeah, I could totally see that happening.

00:47:31   I'll give one other quick argument on,

00:47:35   of what Peter's trying to argue for that I could see is,

00:47:38   okay, so I was actually just reading an interview

00:47:40   with Oprah, I think it was in The Hollywood Reporter today,

00:47:44   She talked a little bit about Apple.

00:47:46   It's mostly other stuff, but a little bit in there.

00:47:48   But it was interesting to me because she reiterates

00:47:50   what of course she famously said on stage,

00:47:52   the billion pockets y'all.

00:47:53   She sort of talks about that a little bit again.

00:47:58   And the way that she talks about it is that basically

00:48:00   why she's so excited to work with Apple

00:48:02   is because they open up an audience

00:48:06   that is unparalleled in size

00:48:07   because of the device reach, right?

00:48:09   And so you could see a world in which Apple

00:48:12   is selling to Hollywood that exact thing,

00:48:15   and I'm sure they are, right,

00:48:16   that that's the main selling point,

00:48:17   that we have a billion devices out,

00:48:20   a billion plus devices out there,

00:48:22   and you can access all of them.

00:48:23   And so if they're trying to say

00:48:26   that reach is the most important thing,

00:48:28   of course free would be the easiest way

00:48:31   to get to that full reach.

00:48:33   And so that's really the only argument I could see

00:48:37   them making for doing it as a free service.

00:48:39   if they're saying, "Hey, so this thing is gonna be free,

00:48:42   but we're gonna launch it to a billion plus users

00:48:46   or several hundred million users,

00:48:48   and you're gonna have access

00:48:50   like you've never had before to eyeballs."

00:48:53   But still, I think that that is a short-term gain

00:48:55   for sort of long-term pain

00:48:57   for anyone who's thinking savvy enough about it.

00:49:00   - Yeah, and my dream, and I've been so beaten down

00:49:05   by the five gigabyte free tier of iTunes

00:49:07   that I no longer have any vim and vigor

00:49:10   when arguing about it, but my dream would be

00:49:12   if they slipped iCloud in there too,

00:49:14   into this Prime thing and sign up for this stuff

00:49:17   that you think is fun, like listening to unlimited music

00:49:21   and watching cool TV shows, and you'll get an upgrade

00:49:24   to your storage tier in iTunes,

00:49:27   and you'll be able to have all of your photos backed up

00:49:32   in the cloud, which is like a good, healthy thing

00:49:34   that nobody really feels like it's a fun way

00:49:37   to spend $2.99 a month to get an upgrade to iCloud.

00:49:42   But it should be great.

00:49:43   And Apple is the unique structure of Apple

00:49:46   where they don't have financial silos,

00:49:50   you know, where there's nobody who's in charge of iCloud

00:49:55   who's gonna be mad because it was his independent,

00:49:58   his or her independent fiefdom.

00:50:00   In fact, it's the same guy, it's Eddie Q, right?

00:50:02   So like, Eddie, make this happen, right?

00:50:05   - Yeah, they are uniquely positioned to do that.

00:50:07   You're totally right.

00:50:08   And you could even see them harkening back

00:50:10   to the old school iLife suites,

00:50:13   where they bundle things together

00:50:15   and offer it in an experience mode,

00:50:17   not so much all these things individually.

00:50:20   It's all about having fun, like you say.

00:50:22   - So that would be,

00:50:24   and I just feel like it would be a nice,

00:50:27   it would make the overall experience

00:50:29   of the typical user so much better,

00:50:31   and just by having all of their photos in the cloud.

00:50:34   And I guess I misspoke a couple episodes ago

00:50:38   and like I put forth the hypothetical theory

00:50:43   of a person who's buying a new iPhone

00:50:45   and they've got more than five gigabytes,

00:50:46   way more than five gigabytes of photos and videos.

00:50:49   And I thought, you know, I think I put it in a way

00:50:52   that made it sound like they were screwed.

00:50:54   They're not, if you go to the Apple store

00:50:56   and you don't have a backup that has all of your stuff,

00:50:59   they'll do it for you right there in the store

00:51:02   through, you know, like a Mac or something

00:51:04   They'll get your all of your stuff off your old phone no matter how much it is onto your new phone there in this store

00:51:08   But a how many people do that?

00:51:10   I mean there must be millions and millions of people who have no idea that they could do that at the Apple Store

00:51:15   And B. It doesn't solve the other problems that like us that backup solves like if your phone

00:51:21   Is lost or stolen or broken?

00:51:24   You know

00:51:25   There's nothing you can do like you leave your phone in a cab and you got to go get a new iPhone if you don't

00:51:30   a backup, you've just lost your photos. Like there's digital tragedies that happen every day

00:51:34   that could be solved if everybody just had a wee bit more iCloud.

00:51:40   Trenton Larkin And, you know, the ultimate extension of this is,

00:51:43   of course, then including sort of a rolling iPhone subscription where you get a new device

00:51:49   every few years, right? Dave

00:52:00   Amazon Prime like, you know, here, just give us this money on a regular basis and we'll

00:52:06   keep throwing TV shows at you.

00:52:08   We'll keep throwing new iPhones at you every two years.

00:52:11   How awesome would that be if like they had a service that was so seamless that basically,

00:52:16   you know, you check a box, you say, I want a new iPhone every year or I want one every

00:52:19   other year.

00:52:21   And when that time comes and when the launch date hits, you basically get a package in

00:52:25   mail with your new iPhone with all of your data already on it. Because they just did sort of a

00:52:31   quick, you know, data transfer for you and sold you basically, you know, stop using your iPhone

00:52:37   after midnight tonight and tomorrow morning, you're going to get a brand new one with all

00:52:40   of your data sync from your iCloud account. How great of an experience would that be?

00:52:44   That would be pretty great. I mean, Amazon does a great job with that. Like when you buy like a new

00:52:49   Kindle Kindle. Yeah, it comes. I just got the latest and gray. I'm on like an every four years

00:52:54   Kindle cycle. But it's nice because if you wait like four years, you really get like

00:52:59   the screens are, you know, the backlighting on the screen is way better. And I'm always

00:53:05   impressed by that. But I kind of feel like part of that is scale that they don't, you

00:53:09   know, the iPhone comes at such scale, they couldn't do it. But maybe if you had this

00:53:12   nice subscription service, they could afford to do it even at their scale. It would be

00:53:15   really very, very nice just to open the box and have it already have your stuff on it.

00:53:21   - Yes, I think you were talking about that

00:53:23   in a recent podcast, maybe even your last one,

00:53:26   where you talked about how good the backup service

00:53:29   has gotten via iCloud versus syncing on a computer.

00:53:33   And it's funny because I almost feel like the opposite.

00:53:36   So I just bought actually Megan a new iPhone,

00:53:39   basically to get the best camera.

00:53:41   So I bought her the XS to be able to get the best camera

00:53:46   for taking pictures of the little one.

00:53:48   And she's so reluctant to install it.

00:53:50   just sitting in a box right now,

00:53:52   because she doesn't want to take the time

00:53:53   to go through and do the new device sync thing.

00:53:57   And I agree, it is a lot better than it used to be,

00:53:59   of course, you can do most of it over iCloud,

00:54:01   and it is relatively fast,

00:54:02   but there are just little things

00:54:05   like that they don't transfer every single password,

00:54:08   and so there are some services

00:54:09   that you have to log into again,

00:54:11   and it's just like that inhibiting factor stops,

00:54:14   I think, people from doing upgrades, for sure.

00:54:16   - Yeah, there's certain services that obviously,

00:54:18   I guess they're not storing their passwords

00:54:21   in your keychain.

00:54:22   I would hope that they're not really storing

00:54:25   your password at all, that they're,

00:54:26   instead of using the keychain,

00:54:27   they're using some kind of localized token

00:54:31   that couldn't be reused.

00:54:32   I really hope that the apps that do this

00:54:35   are not just stored in a password on their own,

00:54:37   like in your preferences file or something.

00:54:40   Although you'd think that would transfer,

00:54:41   but, or they do, for some reason,

00:54:45   some of these apps and services seem to want to create

00:54:48   a unique identifier based on you and your device.

00:54:51   And so when you go to a new device,

00:54:53   you gotta re-log in and then, yeah, you're right.

00:54:56   It's as good as it's gotten,

00:54:58   it still is a couple of weeks of pain.

00:55:01   And then there's always the ones that you forget about.

00:55:03   You know, like, I don't use our Nest app very frequently,

00:55:08   but then it's like, I'll just go, you know,

00:55:09   like after like a month, I have a new iPhone.

00:55:11   I go to the Nest app and it's like, I'm back.

00:55:13   I don't even remember if Nest is one,

00:55:15   but there's just those apps that you use like once a month

00:55:18   And it's just like always the worst moment. Yeah, right. You need to ask minor the credit card apps

00:55:23   It's like I want to I want to see if this payment went through. Yeah. Yeah, and it's like I log it

00:55:27   It's like oh my god. I forgot. I haven't installed it yet on the news phone like blah blah blah

00:55:31   Yeah, oh, I know one uber for some reason uber doesn't just do it

00:55:34   And of course the first time you notice right the first time you notice is when you're trying to get an uber

00:55:39   Why else would you over do open the uber app? Yes, exactly

00:55:42   Yeah, right

00:55:43   And so it's like we're we're seven minutes away from our dinner reservation

00:55:47   And I'm like and you have seven minutes of typing in a password. Yeah, and it's confirming this and that

00:55:53   It's like oh my god. Jesus. There's probably like Ubers have just driven by my house already. I already missed them

00:55:59   like

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00:59:35   Anything else on the original content front

00:59:39   so the only thing I was gonna

00:59:42   Ask you for what you think about this because like I feel like no one's really had a good

00:59:49   high level take at least that I've read about it. But so obviously there's the famous thing I think in Walter Isaacson's book about

00:59:55   Steve Jobs when he's on

00:59:57   You know, unfortunately, of course his deathbed talking about that. He finally cracked cracked it right with regard to Apple television and

01:00:05   It's pretty clear I think to anyone who's been watching this long enough that's what they're launching

01:00:12   Now is not what they actually intended to launch or what Steve Jobs was sort of referring to when he said they cracked it

01:00:18   It seems more likely that that was sort of an interface or some sort of software mixed

01:00:26   with the ability to work with Hollywood to create sort of the perfect new package that

01:00:32   would ultimately replace cable.

01:00:34   And you could argue that maybe it just wasn't the right time, you know, when that, when

01:00:40   unfortunately it passed away in 2010, right, so nine years ago already, it was just not

01:00:45   the right time for that to happen.

01:00:48   And maybe now is with our just enough time has passed and obviously cable's under immense

01:00:53   pressure and just things are unbundling and so maybe now is the right time.

01:00:58   But it still seems like it's not exactly what Apple would have envisioned to do.

01:01:02   And I think you could just see this by reading the reports over the years of at EQ meeting

01:01:06   with so and so and so and so and Hollywood executives and they're not agreeing to sign

01:01:11   up for this thing.

01:01:12   And you can even see it in the product that it looks like they're releasing.

01:01:14   And I know you and I had a funny back and forth.

01:01:16   think Kafka got involved too on Twitter, where it's basically like, can you actually launch any of

01:01:22   these services like the Hulu service right from within the TV app? And it seems like no, instead

01:01:28   it kicks you out into it again, right? So it's not seamless at all. No. All right. Let's there's

01:01:35   a lot to unpack there. And this is a good topic. All right. I think that the I cracked it line is

01:01:42   I think there was no there there. I don't know what he was thinking. I,

01:01:46   he might've had an idea. There might've been something,

01:01:48   but I don't think people have read into it like from its last theorem.

01:01:51   You know what I mean? Like it's just cause it's,

01:01:53   we like to think that Steve jobs and,

01:02:00   and maybe there are moments,

01:02:01   there are moments in Apple and computing personal computing history where he,

01:02:05   he probably did have a Eureka moments, right?

01:02:08   of he's got it, you know, do do something. Yeah. I don't know what he was thinking of.

01:02:15   It would be fascinating to someday get exactly what was it? Was it just something about,

01:02:21   you know, for all we know, it was the goddamn remote control. You know, I mean, it's like,

01:02:25   we're gonna put a touch pad on the remote control. And it's gonna be bizarrely symmetric.

01:02:32   It could have been a terrible idea. I don't think I think everybody read into that. And

01:02:36   was the way it was written was I mean it was just it was such a throwaway line

01:02:40   yeah and jobs of course was characteristically super confident I got

01:02:47   it I don't think there was anything there and if he did or or maybe he had a

01:02:54   brilliant idea and they just could never get the content people on board you know

01:02:58   so here's what I'll say I'll just say this in the it was 2011 when he died in

01:03:04   In the eight years since then,

01:03:06   I don't think Apple's done anything to crack it.

01:03:08   So whatever his idea was,

01:03:09   either they didn't listen to him or it didn't work.

01:03:12   - Okay, so I agree with all of that.

01:03:15   And I think that that's probably,

01:03:17   you know, that is sort of the Occam's Razor thing of that.

01:03:22   There is some combination of,

01:03:25   he had just seen the latest work that they,

01:03:28   you know, that team was working on,

01:03:29   and it looked like it was in a good position,

01:03:32   but they weren't able to get sort of the, you know,

01:03:34   the Hollywood players on board

01:03:35   and so they could never launch what they wanted to do.

01:03:38   I'd also heard way, this is years ago, but back in the day,

01:03:41   I'd heard about what they effectively launched

01:03:43   as the remote control that now everyone hates

01:03:46   is the touch remote control.

01:03:47   I had heard about this years ago before it launched.

01:03:49   I'd heard about it as a slight,

01:03:51   it sounded when it was described to me as slightly different,

01:03:53   more sort of almost more akin to the magic track pad,

01:03:57   just a bigger full on track pad type of thing.

01:04:01   And it ultimately became a smaller thing and more remote

01:04:05   and with a few buttons, of course,

01:04:06   which presumably Jobs wouldn't have wanted.

01:04:09   And so I think you're right that it's a combination

01:04:14   of all of these things, that he thought he had

01:04:16   some interesting conceptual new way to interface with a TV.

01:04:21   He thought he had a new UI for the TV.

01:04:23   And then he thought that once the Hollywood executives

01:04:26   saw this package, that they would have to drop

01:04:29   what they were doing and agree to it

01:04:31   in the way that they did with iTunes, right?

01:04:33   - Right, but I think the bigger picture

01:04:36   of where we stand today in 2019

01:04:38   and with this new TV app coming up is this,

01:04:42   are you bouncing back and forth to multiple apps?

01:04:45   You know, and they definitely, I don't think they,

01:04:49   I always say this, I don't think Apple ever tries

01:04:51   to mislead, I think that their marketing,

01:04:54   product marketing is scrupulously honest.

01:04:55   Now, do they highlight the good

01:04:57   and not talk about the bad?

01:04:59   Of course, you know, they're marketers, but they don't lie. And so I think that that day

01:05:06   one, there were some pages on the webpage, apple.com that made it sound as though that

01:05:13   when you went into this TV channels product, you wouldn't be bouncing between different

01:05:17   apps that if you've got these channels and you want to go from the CBS interactive Star

01:05:23   Trek to Hulu's The Handmaid's Tale, you would just skip from the one show to the other,

01:05:30   not skip from the app between apps. I forget the exact language. It doesn't matter. And

01:05:36   within 24 hours it was subtly changed to not indicate that. I think it was a miscommunication.

01:05:43   I don't think it was an attempt to mislead because everybody's going to know eventually.

01:05:46   There's no point in lying. I just think that the original copy was written by someone who

01:05:50   who was thinking along the lines of us

01:05:52   that it was supposed to work this way.

01:05:54   Because bouncing between apps on Apple TV is not great.

01:05:59   - No, so right, and that's sort of my point.

01:06:01   Like I think you're right with all of that, 100%,

01:06:03   but I also think that what they wanted

01:06:06   in their ideal state to do is what we're talking about.

01:06:08   - Yeah, yeah.

01:06:10   - And even going, talking about Kafka again, right?

01:06:12   His report before this event,

01:06:14   the most interesting thing about that report

01:06:16   that he had back then was that Apple would actually

01:06:19   be hosting a lot of this content, right?

01:06:21   From their own servers.

01:06:22   And that would imply, of course, that they were then

01:06:24   just going to serve it up in the TV app

01:06:26   and not make you go into a separate app,

01:06:28   because why would they host that content for a separate app?

01:06:31   They would do it in their own app.

01:06:32   And so they are obviously going to do that,

01:06:33   it seems like, for a few different content partners.

01:06:36   But really, for it to be a seamless experience

01:06:39   and something that's great, they need

01:06:41   to do it for all of the content partners,

01:06:42   and they clearly just couldn't get there.

01:06:44   - Yeah, just as to be a user interface nerd,

01:06:49   there is a conceptual complexity

01:06:52   to bouncing between apps on Apple TV.

01:06:56   There's just an extra cognitive load to that.

01:07:00   In a sense, they're competing against Netflix,

01:07:04   where Netflix is its own universe.

01:07:06   And once you're in Netflix, you only bounce between shows.

01:07:10   You're not bouncing out between apps.

01:07:13   And like, I don't think the problem is that there needs to be a better app switching interface.

01:07:19   I just think that the natural unit on on Apple TV, if everybody would just agree to it is

01:07:26   the show, not the app.

01:07:29   Yes.

01:07:30   100% right.

01:07:31   And I think this is this is sort of why I think I feel like Apple's game plan after

01:07:37   a decade of sort of failing to convince the Hollywood players to go along with their vision.

01:07:43   I think they tried to do an end run around, which is basically like, okay, you guys know apps,

01:07:47   you make them for the iPhone, you make them for the iPad. Now you'll make them for the Apple TV.

01:07:52   And then they thought that eventually they would convince them that this isn't sort of the best way

01:07:57   to do it. The best way to do it is to have a unified sort of cable guide interface,

01:08:02   right, recreating sort of the cable bundle via contents that they could serve up. They can do

01:08:07   recommendations all from within this TV app, and they still just aren't there yet. And now they have

01:08:12   a separate problem, which not only are all of the Hollywood guys not fully on board with that,

01:08:17   they have the Netflix problem, which is that Netflix is always going to be a separate app,

01:08:21   they will never agree to be a part of this. Yeah, I don't I wonder, I, I would guess that they

01:08:27   asked. I mean, they obviously talked to Netflix. And you know, who knows what the, you know,

01:08:31   who knows what those negotiations were like with where Netflix decided we're going to stop taking

01:08:36   iTunes signups

01:08:38   But like I I've I say reported but I've written this and I can I can say it as fact

01:08:44   Or pretty close to fact that Netflix had a sweetheart deal where they were only paying

01:08:51   15% instead of 30% for a lot longer than then then then that was a they started talking about it

01:08:57   You started talking about it as a hey you pay 30 for the first year and then 15 thereafter like I think and I this

01:09:04   I think I'm pretty sure that Netflix's deal was 15 from the start

01:09:08   It was there was no first year of 30 and then 15

01:09:12   It was like for a while Netflix had they just you know for iTunes signups Apple only took 15%

01:09:17   Who knows why they stopped that?

01:09:19   I guess they talked to Netflix and just tried to talk them into getting into the TV app

01:09:25   But I think Apple's smart enough to know that there's no way Netflix is gonna go for that

01:09:29   Well, I mean there's a very obvious reason why beyond just the monetary aspect of it

01:09:34   Netflix's entire business is built around data collection to write to be able to serve up recommendations and create shows based on you know

01:09:41   What people want and so is Apple going to serve up a hundred percent of the same data collection?

01:09:46   Even if they serve up a lot of it

01:09:47   They're not going to have the same granular level of detail that you would get within the Netflix app

01:09:51   So why would Netflix ever agree to that? Right?

01:09:53   Yeah, and and just being and and giving up the control over being able to get the data that they want, you know

01:10:00   Like, you know if they want to know how much how many times people pause a show, you know

01:10:05   They could do it because they add it's their own app

01:10:07   The only way to watch it is in their own app and if that's interesting to them, you know

01:10:11   You know if they want to say if they want to do an algorithm and say hey

01:10:15   These comedy specials that people tend not to pause do better than the ones that people pause a couple times

01:10:22   you know this guy or this woman, you know had a comedy special that and

01:10:25   People I don't know if that's useful or not. I'm just saying that if they

01:10:29   But that they've got data nerds looking at that, right?

01:10:32   It's exactly like the whole the whole moneyball aspect of baseball if you want to figure out if a guy who's left-handed

01:10:37   You know tends to hit the ball to in between shortstop and third base and that's worth an extra, you know

01:10:43   Two wins a season you can do it if you have the data, right?

01:10:47   But you've got to have the data. You just have to have yeah for sure and

01:10:51   this is you know, it gets into it where it's not just having the control and wanting them

01:10:57   in your app. So you have the control. You're also fighting Apple's institutional stance

01:11:01   on privacy where Apple can say, Hey, you should you you know, Mr. Hulu executive should let

01:11:09   us have your shows put your shows right here in the TV app without making people jump out.

01:11:13   It's great. It's all private for the user. That's not a selling point. It's a selling

01:11:19   point to the user. It sounds, you know, from Apple's perspective, it seems like a selling

01:11:24   point that everybody should get on board with. But from the perspective of somebody who is at a data

01:11:29   hungry company, that is not a selling point. That is a selling point. And I mean, that speaks to

01:11:37   what I think, you know, what happened with Apple news plus to write, like, why is the New York

01:11:40   Times and everyone like everyone was was focused on this 50% cut, which is obviously ridiculous,

01:11:44   but it's also it's just, they weren't going to share the subscriber data. So like, why on earth

01:11:49   Were they ever, you know, you, you were basically giving up, uh, the goose if,

01:11:54   if you're doing that for, as these, these content companies.

01:11:56   So I think they would be foolish to do that. And it's just to a much greater degree with the, uh,

01:12:01   with the Netflix's of the worlds, because they are so sort of data focused, even though it may not

01:12:06   seem like that on the surface of it. I just, I think the bad news is we're stuck bouncing

01:12:10   between apps. It's the bottom line. I, yes. And they can make it as, try to make it as

01:12:15   seamless as possible, but I don't see any way around it.

01:12:19   Yeah, the only way, and this sort of speaks to their original content, right? Another part of

01:12:26   the reason why you would do it is if you needed leverage over, obviously, again, going back to the

01:12:33   notion that EdiQ and whatnot have been having these conversations for a better part of a decade

01:12:38   at this point and haven't really been able to break through with the Hollywood executives on

01:12:43   on the content side of things.

01:12:44   And so it's a lot easier to have sort of those types

01:12:47   of conversations if you're also a content creator

01:12:50   who has must-have content and you have, more importantly,

01:12:54   the user base that these content creators need to access.

01:12:57   And so I think Apple's probably now holding out hope

01:13:00   that there's some combination of everything

01:13:03   that they're doing, the culmination of all these things

01:13:06   that launches in the fall, and after like sort of

01:13:09   a two-year span of doing this and being successful at it,

01:13:12   that they're able to get some degree of leverage again

01:13:15   over having different types of conversations.

01:13:18   But I just don't think Netflix is ever going to

01:13:21   to be in play for that.

01:13:23   - I still think it is fascinating,

01:13:27   if you really just pause and think about

01:13:29   what does Apple do, what has Apple always done,

01:13:31   is they sell devices, they sell computers,

01:13:34   and that's where they make money.

01:13:35   That's where they've always made money.

01:13:37   And they've had, famously,

01:13:41   They made iTunes for Windows,

01:13:44   but the only reason they made iTunes for Windows

01:13:46   was to allow Windows users to use iPods.

01:13:48   So they were still selling a device.

01:13:51   It was all, you know, whatever that are,

01:13:54   you know, that's a famous Steve Jobs story

01:13:56   that Steve Jobs was opposed to it,

01:13:58   and Phil Schiller and a few others were adamant about it,

01:14:02   and he would eventually, I think it's an Isaacson story,

01:14:05   too, he was like, all right, whatever,

01:14:06   just go ahead, don't tell,

01:14:08   just don't talk to me about it anymore.

01:14:10   You know, but it wound up turning the iPod from a nice little Mac peripheral into a

01:14:16   Piece of pop culture, you know something that everybody knew, you know, literally I remember at the time

01:14:23   You'd be walking in the mall and I'd hear kids say I want to go to the iPod store. Yep

01:14:28   But it's you know still backed by hardware and you know, they've got Apple music for Android

01:14:34   I'd love to know how well that's doing. Yeah, really would yeah, you never hear about it

01:14:40   I don't but I've got it on my pixel. It looks pretty good

01:14:44   It certainly looks more like an Android app than Google's apps look like iOS apps to be honest

01:14:50   And so it's and as opposed to iTunes which never really looked like a native Windows app that makes sense

01:14:56   right because they have the deals with the music labels and they want to be able to compete with Spotify and they you know,

01:15:02   There's there by some accounts. I think ahead in the US but still pretty far behind worldwide

01:15:06   right and and androids obviously key for worldwide distribution and all that stuff right it doesn't seem like

01:15:12   Apple music for Android ever need they never needed to be concerned that this is gonna affect iPhone sales

01:15:19   Yes

01:15:20   Whereas with TV what they're doing now by partnering to get this stuff baked right into these quote-unquote smart TVs is

01:15:28   definitely

01:15:31   Deflating the the appeal of owning an Apple TV puck

01:15:35   Yeah

01:15:37   I agree 100% and I think we've probably even talked about this before I know like I have long talked about this

01:15:45   The Apple TV device is fascinating to me because it feels like the ultimate device in that Apple keeps being

01:15:53   Just a bit off of where they should be with it

01:15:56   where

01:15:58   You know, obviously the I think it's sold pretty well

01:16:02   It's not sort of selling as well as Roku and some of the other cheaper cheaper sticks and things like that

01:16:07   But it's been around for a long time now and in a bunch of different iterations

01:16:10   And it seems like they've always been just on the cusp of doing something really interesting with it

01:16:14   most recent versions of it were more interesting because of

01:16:18   The fact that it's obviously fully running, you know

01:16:21   their own variation of iOS now and it has the a system chips in it and so it can be an iOS device and it can

01:16:29   run software just like an iOS device was and namely it can run and this speaks to another

01:16:34   part of the services package games.

01:16:37   But they haven't done games in a way that's at all compelling on the Apple TV even though

01:16:41   they have them.

01:16:42   They have the App Store.

01:16:43   And I think the biggest inhibiting factor right now, the games, yeah, they're not the

01:16:47   hardcore games of Xbox or PlayStation.

01:16:51   That's not to say that they couldn't be though necessarily given the power of these chips

01:16:54   these days, but the biggest factor is the controls.

01:16:57   That they don't have their own control.

01:16:58   I know they offer third-party ones in stores or whatever.

01:17:01   Apple needs to make their own controller.

01:17:03   And this can, I mean, we can go off on a tangent on this.

01:17:05   I would argue that that's why beyond the obvious,

01:17:08   the most, the crown jewel of buying the IP of Nintendo,

01:17:11   Nintendo makes great controllers too.

01:17:13   Imagine buying Nintendo to get access

01:17:14   to their hardware IP around controllers

01:17:17   and launching something that way.

01:17:19   - I think that the Steelcase controller is like 60 bucks too.

01:17:22   - And is it, have you ever used it?

01:17:25   Is that any good?

01:17:25   - I have one, I bought one.

01:17:28   It feels a lot like an Xbox controller, which is my least favorite.

01:17:30   And I say this as somebody who retired from active video game playing a while back.

01:17:40   I spent a lot of time playing the Wii when Jonas was younger.

01:17:43   So the Wii, the original Wii, was the last video game system that I spent what I would

01:17:48   consider a lot of time playing.

01:17:49   And I never really loved the Wii controls.

01:17:53   I thought they were clever with the pointing and the waving and stuff like that.

01:17:56   Like when I played Mario Kart, I didn't wave, you know, I didn't tilt the thing, right? But I'd never liked the Xbox controller

01:18:03   It's it's okay

01:18:04   It feels the Steelcase one for Apple TV feels like a generic

01:18:08   controller like if you were making a controller for a TV show and you and and the lawyers came and said

01:18:14   Don't show a PlayStation controller don't show Xbox

01:18:18   And they're like just make like just have the ID team make up like just a generic video game controller

01:18:24   That's exactly what it feels like it's okay, but it just feels like a kick in the pants that you're buying this box

01:18:30   That's so much more expensive than a Roku or a fire thing

01:18:35   from Amazon and if you want to play games

01:18:38   You've got to spend 60 bucks on a controller and that's one controller

01:18:41   that uh, your statement reminds me of when I was a kid and I used to go over to a friend's house who had

01:18:46   the Nintendo 64 and

01:18:49   One of the controllers and that that council council famously had four control reports

01:18:54   but we for some reason we always had one that was a generic one not paid by

01:18:58   Nintendo and whoever had to use that one was sort of you know, the runt of the litter

01:19:02   It's like oh god fine. I'll use this one

01:19:05   but yeah

01:19:06   I could see how that that feels like that with the the sort of controllers because Apple doesn't make them first party and really should

01:19:12   And I think that that's to me like the gaming service that they announced is very interesting

01:19:17   I think that it's super compelling. I could see why it's compelling to game creators

01:19:22   We're in this world of iOS games have been in the race to the bottom

01:19:26   You know

01:19:26   They have to be 99 cents or do in-app purchase or they're basically done for and so this is a way to

01:19:33   Sort of battle back against that but I still feel like a huge component of this should be at least

01:19:38   Leveraging that box that you have in your living room

01:19:42   Which is the Apple TV and the only way that they do that I think is with a really great controller

01:19:47   Yeah, I think it's more powerful as a computer than the we not that we the switch which we have

01:19:53   I think for sure it is. I don't even think it's close. I know there's rumors

01:19:57   That seem pretty good that that Nintendo is gonna come out with like a switch to which is like

01:20:02   Just new hardware like not a new platform. So all the games will work, but it's just gonna be like a faster Tegra

01:20:07   CPU because the one they have in there is a little underpowered

01:20:11   Yep

01:20:12   And it's you know and way that people love their switch and that switch games are super fun to play and they all look great

01:20:17   And they don't feel slow and you know

01:20:20   It's they're definitely in that same boat with the switch and Nintendo's success with it as showing that you don't have to compete with

01:20:27   PlayStation and Xbox in that the way that they are really competing against gaming PCs

01:20:34   You don't have to get into that whole area

01:20:35   Yep, and so right so that and that seems like the avenue that Apple is sort of likely to take I assume

01:20:42   that it's more not casual but just sort of different than then yeah the hardcore

01:20:49   PC games and I think that that's a smart approach we'll see what the price point

01:20:55   ends up being you you mentioned ten dollars I wouldn't be shocked if they do

01:20:57   it a little bit more than that like 15 or something it sort of depends on you

01:21:01   know what what they have in store when they when they launch with with whatever

01:21:05   they're gonna launch yeah that's a big one too but the way that they're not

01:21:09   Allowing any and that you know anybody who's competing in that in that anybody who's got a game in Apple arcade. Yeah, that's it

01:21:16   You're no game. Yeah, no in-app purchase. I think that's great. I think it's gonna work with Nintendo, right?

01:21:22   It was well

01:21:23   It was sort of a weird thing that instead the Super Mario run thing

01:21:25   Was weird in my in my mind like I get what they were trying to do with it, right?

01:21:30   You could get it for free and then you paid one time fee and then you unlocked it and there was no more in-app

01:21:35   I think they didn't do as well as they were probably expecting to do with that

01:21:39   And now Nintendo's success stories and mobile have been just in-app purchase, right? It's like that

01:21:44   The fire emblem thing and animal crossing. I always like the notion of what Apple and Nintendo

01:21:50   We're trying to do with that right not trick anyone not not allow kids to

01:21:53   To bot have to spend an arm and a leg and just be constantly milked for more and more more of their milk money out

01:21:59   Of it, right?

01:22:00   Yeah, I totally appreciate that and it's you know

01:22:05   It's the right thing to do even if they are leaving money on the table

01:22:09   I don't know the slot game of the slot machine of vacation of video games on mobile is it?

01:22:13   it's maybe it's beneath the whole privacy stuff with Facebook and you know

01:22:19   It's not like the Facebook stuff is like getting Donald Trump and brexit in elections, right?

01:22:27   It's changing the course of 21st century world history

01:22:30   the people spending 20 bucks a month on Candy Crush isn't but

01:22:35   So it's low down on a list of our industry problems,

01:22:38   but it is a problem.

01:22:39   It's not right.

01:22:41   - And it also sort of started with Facebook as well, right?

01:22:43   - Right.

01:22:44   - And Farmville and all those things back in the day.

01:22:46   Like that's how people originally,

01:22:48   that's where the whales came from.

01:22:50   And then they moved on to mobile.

01:22:51   But yeah, this was,

01:22:53   this all ties back to Facebook in the end, unfortunately.

01:22:56   - Did you see that thing a couple of months ago

01:22:58   where there was a lawsuit about their games

01:23:00   and that they had, as part of the discovery,

01:23:02   They had chat transcripts from Facebook employees who were talking about like, "Hey, there's

01:23:08   a..."

01:23:09   Oh, the whale thing. This was about the whale thing, right?

01:23:11   Yeah. Somebody's... What's it called when you blank a charge? You're arguing.

01:23:17   Right.

01:23:18   What's the word? Dispute.

01:23:21   Yes.

01:23:22   There's a dispute of a charge. It's a 15-year-old girl who racked up $4,000 and stuff. And it's

01:23:30   Well, is she really 15 or 14 and it's like I don't know she doesn't really look it

01:23:35   So they're you'd say like it doesn't really look like she's 15

01:23:38   it's just that that you know, that's the minimum age had to be and

01:23:41   You know and they have all this proof that Facebook knew that kids

01:23:45   Didn't realize they were playing with real money that they really thought that it was a virtual currency

01:23:50   Which of course isn't it actually does is not that hard to believe with all these games that have for sure

01:23:55   They have coins and yeah, and literally like four thousand dollars like like

01:24:00   Not like, "Oh, your kid ran up 40 bucks."

01:24:03   Like, "$4,000!"

01:24:05   And they're just like, "Ah, let it go.

01:24:06   No, no, don't do a chargeback on that one.

01:24:09   We'll keep that one."

01:24:10   It's like, you're a bad person.

01:24:12   That's bad.

01:24:14   Anyway.

01:24:15   - And yeah, and Apple, I mean, that was a big,

01:24:18   that was the subtext.

01:24:19   I think Benedict Evans wrote about this too,

01:24:20   which I agree with.

01:24:21   The subjects of this whole event was

01:24:23   not only the services thing, but it's also privacy

01:24:26   and sort of doing the right thing

01:24:29   with things like this, right, even to the point where that one of the more surprising things,

01:24:33   which I thought was fascinating was that they kept talking up in every single instance how

01:24:37   they were, there was family sharing on all of these services, right? Yeah, so yeah,

01:24:41   once and everyone can access it in your family. Yeah. And you know, it wasn't you don't, you

01:24:46   didn't have to even really be paying attention to the event to see that they were putting up the

01:24:50   same slide with the same seven bullet points, you know, family sharing and private and kid friendly

01:24:57   and, you know, whatever the list of seven things were, it was the same for news, it was the same

01:25:03   for games, it was the same for TV, etc, etc. I mean, it's it's obviously something they're

01:25:08   hammering home that they believe in. I really do think they believe in it. And I also think that

01:25:12   they think that this is this is appealing. Yep. To quickly tie back to your point about so Apple TV,

01:25:21   the device because they're releasing the service on all these other TVs, and they're really

01:25:26   undercutting their argument for Apple TV. It feels like they obviously have to know that. And so what

01:25:31   is their plan going forward? Do they do something where it's more like a full fledged, more full

01:25:37   fledged gaming service with a controller and something to upsell? Do they package Apple TV's

01:25:43   Plus like we were talking about to try to sell, you know, sort of the more hardcore Apple users?

01:25:50   Do they do something entirely different? Like I think, you know, you and I have talked about in

01:25:54   in the past, like they really dropped the ball

01:25:56   with the opportunity to use this device

01:25:59   that people had in their homes,

01:25:59   either as a precursor to Alexa or as a Euro type thing,

01:26:04   where they could have just had this hardware

01:26:08   and used it for all these other things

01:26:10   that we'd now use hardware for,

01:26:11   and they had this thing right there for the taking

01:26:13   and just didn't do anything that interesting with it.

01:26:15   So do they do that now and make it a more interesting box?

01:26:18   Because they really need to make a key value sell

01:26:23   on buying a $200 box when you don't need it anymore

01:26:26   for anything.

01:26:27   - Yeah, I totally agree.

01:26:29   And I don't know, I think it's a tragedy.

01:26:31   I've talked to, and in fact, I don't know anybody privately

01:26:35   who even argues otherwise.

01:26:36   I mean, somebody at Apple must think it's a bad idea

01:26:39   to be in the router WiFi business.

01:26:40   But I know so many people, friends who are former

01:26:43   Apple employees, just outside observers,

01:26:46   everybody thinks it is just like a heartbreaking mistake

01:26:49   that Apple has abandoned the airport business

01:26:52   because this whole, that they've gotten out of the business

01:26:57   right as online privacy has become something--

01:27:03   - Exactly, you wanna talk about a privacy argument,

01:27:05   make that argument, yeah, seriously.

01:27:07   - It's foremost on their public statements

01:27:10   that Tim Cook talks about privacy every single time

01:27:14   he's in public, every interview, everything.

01:27:16   I mean, he obviously means it.

01:27:18   It is obviously strategically central to Apple right now

01:27:23   and going forward.

01:27:26   It's hard to see how that's going to change.

01:27:27   It's not, and they've, you know, to have this ally,

01:27:31   if you are as a consumer concerned about your privacy

01:27:36   and your online privacy,

01:27:37   to be able to buy a router that you can trust

01:27:40   and that isn't going to,

01:27:42   if it does listen to voice commands,

01:27:44   that you really do believe that they're not,

01:27:47   that they don't have an army of employees who listen. And when somebody says something funny,

01:27:53   they pass it around, which is a story, I think the information or somebody broke about Amazon,

01:27:57   that they've got this army of humans who are backing up these commands to figure out when

01:28:02   something goes wrong, to listen to it and then figure out how to correct it. And they're sharing

01:28:06   this stuff and that they have access to your home address and just crazy stuff. I would really trust

01:28:13   Apple in that regard. And to have them not be making a router of all the products that

01:28:19   could really, really affect the privacy of every single device on your network, it's

01:28:23   just central to it. And then it's heartbreaking. And yeah, they could tie it together and say,

01:28:29   just buy this one thing. It's not that big. And you can put it in your living room. And

01:28:34   it also play games and shows, show TV shows and original content and stuff.

01:28:38   Yep. And has Siri baked in and has all this, you know, all this other stuff that they could

01:28:42   with it and they just weren't able to pull it all together for some reason to have the foresight to

01:28:49   be able to do that. But I think that that stuff is still in play, maybe not the router stuff,

01:28:55   given what you're talking about. But some of those other elements with the sort of,

01:29:01   I think everyone agrees that HomePod has not been a success. And so the rumors are that they're

01:29:07   working on a smaller version or something, but like, why not just bake it into this device?

01:29:11   Then make make a reason for people to have this device again or at least some some sort of compelling argument when?

01:29:17   You know why you would buy this when you are about to launch your service

01:29:21   Which is the focal point of this on all these other devices? Yeah, I don't know with the router thing

01:29:26   I just want to know I want to know like what are we supposed to buy?

01:29:28   You know, I mean I have I mean they're not sponsoring this week's show. I have ero. I've had it for years

01:29:33   I like yeah, I love you, too. You know

01:29:35   So I you know that way if somebody asked me what I should buy I would honestly again

01:29:40   They're not sponsoring this week's show, but they have sponsored many times.

01:29:43   So take it with a grain of salt if you wish or a disclaimer.

01:29:46   But my honest advice to like a family member who said, Hey, I need, I want to

01:29:49   get a new wifi thing. I would tell them to get Eero, but like, what does Tim Cook

01:29:54   have at his house? You know, what does Phil Schiller have? I mean, do they just

01:29:58   pay to have like, uh, professionals and enterprise grade stuff? I mean,

01:30:05   likely maybe, but maybe not. I mean, do they have that in, what do they have

01:30:09   Yeah in there. What do they recommend their family members? Right, right, right. I I don't know

01:30:14   It was just it's just a bizarre product to get out

01:30:17   I and I see how it might have been a tough business because it's it's just like the problem that TiVo

01:30:23   Always had where they're trying to get you to buy this DVR

01:30:27   But the cable company gives you a DVR Steve Jobs talked about this at length

01:30:30   right in the book about the problems getting into TV is that the problem is they're competing they get anything you want to sell people is

01:30:37   competing against a box they get from the cable company for quote-unquote free.

01:30:41   Yep. You know, I mean the modern opportunity is that, you know, as opposed to 15 years

01:30:46   ago, the modern opportunity is that there's a growing number of people who don't have

01:30:51   the box from cable company. They only have internet service. So there's your opportunity.

01:30:55   But on the router front, everybody gets, you still have to have internet. You can't, you

01:30:59   know, that's the cord you can't cut. Yes. So that's a good point. And yeah, I totally

01:31:04   - I totally agree, like that's what,

01:31:05   when we were talking about the Steve Jobs,

01:31:07   I finally cracked it thing,

01:31:08   it sort of seems like this day and age

01:31:10   would be a lot easier to sort of start from scratch

01:31:12   because the cable box is not so ingrained,

01:31:15   but it took just time for that to happen, right?

01:31:17   And you're right with the router thing too,

01:31:19   but I feel like just what you were talking about earlier,

01:31:22   the argument now is the privacy argument.

01:31:24   And that's a super compelling argument

01:31:26   to a lot of people, right?

01:31:27   And you just say like, Apple got out of that business

01:31:30   for probably the right reasons

01:31:31   from a bottom line perspective

01:31:33   and from their own perspective and focus and whatnot.

01:31:35   But now you can make the argument

01:31:37   that that would have been their single greatest

01:31:39   sort of strength with regard to the privacy

01:31:42   and security argument.

01:31:43   And so even if they're not making a ton of money

01:31:46   off of these devices, now that we have services narrative,

01:31:49   like what would be better than having some sort of security,

01:31:52   like Eero offers like security services

01:31:54   right through their box.

01:31:55   And so why would Apple not do that?

01:31:57   They of course would, and they probably wish

01:31:59   that they could do that now, but they pulled back.

01:32:02   - Yeah, who knows what they're gonna do now

01:32:04   that they're an Amazon subsidiary,

01:32:05   but their last year or so, their Eros,

01:32:09   just listening to what they tell me to promote

01:32:12   on the podcast reads there,

01:32:14   their add-on EroPlus service was clearly a central,

01:32:19   their big idea that they had.

01:32:22   I don't know if they were selling

01:32:24   the hardware break-even or whatever,

01:32:26   but the hardware's fair enough priced

01:32:28   that I wouldn't be surprised that to make money,

01:32:30   it was the service.

01:32:31   Yep, yep services services services

01:32:34   So, I don't know what else you you you wanted to talk about

01:32:39   But that that sort of I think is an interesting segue into a question I had for you. Okay, I love questions for me

01:32:44   So one thing, you know now that I'm so far removed from my reporting days, you know going on

01:32:51   I don't even know how long it's been eight years or something since I've been a day-to-day reporter and and obviously I was covering Apple

01:32:56   A lot back in those days

01:32:58   But I came into Apple in a very different vector than you did where you know, you've been

01:33:02   Sort of, you know following the company obviously since since you started writing on the internet

01:33:07   But um, you know before that as a it's just a fan and the user

01:33:10   and I came in in a very different sort of position where you speak to the

01:33:14   iPod the iPod was the the thing that hooked me into it when I was still a Windows user, right and that's how

01:33:19   The the whole halo effect thing and then I started buying

01:33:23   Apple products after I bought that initial iPod

01:33:26   But I was like a hardcore Windows user went to the midnight launch of Windows 95 you and and things like that

01:33:31   And so I came into it much later

01:33:33   But then I felt like the timing ended up being good from my reporting days of like figuring out that this is like the company

01:33:39   That's really you know was the underdog but seems like it's gonna come roaring back

01:33:43   And of course that happened and became the most valuable company in the world yada yada

01:33:46   So these days when I'm looking at the company again from afar and I've been out of the day-to-day for a long time now

01:33:52   But I do see a company that you know is unquestionably slipping at the edges

01:33:58   But I do wonder what your perspective is as someone who watches it more closely on a day to day

01:34:03   and I obviously get a sense of it reading, you know during fireball, but

01:34:07   What do you think?

01:34:08   Do you think that there's a risk that this sort of slipping at the edges with things like the the MacBook keyboard?

01:34:13   You know on down home pod all these other sort of little things that are just sort of slight misses - it's a pretty big misses

01:34:20   Do you think that it becomes this thing that leads to an internal sort of rot for lack of a better word within the company?

01:34:27   That's a very good question. I worry about that a lot

01:34:30   I think that's that the stability at the executive level which is really pretty extraordinary

01:34:35   Helps, I mean Tim Cook's been there for a while. Phil Schiller has been there the longest of anybody

01:34:41   I think Schiller was the only one who's I believe who's still left on the executive page who was there before

01:34:47   The next as I call it the next reunification

01:34:50   Eddie Q lifer and Johnny I've of course and Johnny was of course there yeah well

01:34:55   I don't know what I'm talking about there's a couple no but that I see but

01:34:58   the fact that there are that these top people like Eddie and Phil and Johnny

01:35:03   who've been there since before Steve Jobs came back to the company and are

01:35:06   still there helps in some ways at maintaining you know Apple is Apple but

01:35:13   But I do think that, I think it's too easy

01:35:18   to lose your edge when you're on top.

01:35:22   It's being the scrappy underdog kept them,

01:35:26   I think kept the whole company down to the smallest details

01:35:30   on edge because they couldn't afford, you know,

01:35:34   I don't wanna exaggerate too much.

01:35:38   But I think that if they'd had this keyboard problem

01:35:41   Circa 2005 2006 it would have been a much bigger problem that they couldn't afford to have

01:35:48   Unreliable keyboards. Yes. Yeah, sure because people would just go right back to Windows, right?

01:35:55   Yeah, you know and now they feel like they've got them I feel and I feel like they might underestimate like I

01:36:01   Don't want to focus too much on the Mac because your question was about Apple as a whole but the Mac is in a precarious

01:36:08   place in my opinion because

01:36:10   because I think an awful lot of the growth,

01:36:14   if not the majority of the growth in Mac users

01:36:17   in the last 10 years, aren't really Mac users

01:36:21   in my sense of the word,

01:36:22   where they're not deeply entrenched in the Mac ecosystem.

01:36:25   Just to name one type of user would be like a web developer

01:36:31   who mostly uses Safari or Chrome, often Chrome,

01:36:36   and a terminal window.

01:36:38   - Yep, yep.

01:36:39   And, you know, I forget the name of the text editor,

01:36:44   but there's a cross-platform text editor.

01:36:46   I forget if it's called Sublime Text or whatever,

01:36:48   but it's cross-platform.

01:36:49   It's not deeply integrated with the Mac in any way,

01:36:53   like the way PVEdit is or the way Xcode is.

01:36:55   That person can easily switch to another computer.

01:37:01   I think there's a lot of casual users

01:37:03   who mostly use stuff in Safari,

01:37:08   you know, Safari mail. I mean, messages is a big one. But if they do their messages,

01:37:12   if they still have an iPhone, they can switch. I don't know how many people who use, you

01:37:16   know, iMessage also, you know, count on being able to do it from their Mac. But there's

01:37:20   an awful lot of Mac users who've grown, you know, come into the fold in the last 10 years

01:37:25   who would have a fairly easy time switching to another anything with the web browser.

01:37:31   And, you know, a couple of these generic things as opposed to like me, I would be lost, I

01:37:35   would be completely lost not using the Mac because I use it in ways that are specific

01:37:40   and only and unique to the Macintosh. So this keyboard thing, I hear it from people. I hear

01:37:45   people who say, well, I, you know, yeah, I had the second, I got a second one, it went

01:37:49   bad. So I got rid of it and I switched to ThinkPad or something. You know, just like

01:37:55   that. That's would be very, very difficult for me. You know, I don't think we're seeing

01:38:00   it yet in Mac sales in their quarterly statements, but the reputational harm is there.

01:38:05   I do. I don't know. Is it rot? Is it arrogance? I think some of it might be a little arrogant.

01:38:13   I mean, the keyboard thing is pretty exemplary of it. I think it's really I don't, I've written

01:38:20   a fair amount about it, you know, recently, and I've had said some pretty strong things

01:38:25   like it's off quoted that I said, it's the biggest mistake in Apple's history. And I

01:38:30   put an asterisk an hour or two later to say modern history. I don't think well, people

01:38:36   were it was a fun Twitter discussion. People were tossing stuff like that out. MobileMe

01:38:40   was not a good launch. Right. But it gave way to iCloud. Yeah, everything that sort

01:38:45   of Well, they fixed it. You know, as soon as it launched, Steve Jobs famously held a

01:38:48   town hall meeting, right? He said, Hey, what somebody tell me what is mobile me supposed

01:38:52   to do? And then somebody some brave soul raised their hand and said, it's supposed to do x,

01:38:57   Y and Z. And he said, yes, that's a good description. So why the hell doesn't it do that? Silence,

01:39:04   you know, fix it. Get it. But the other thing is that mobile me being crummy didn't do reputational

01:39:10   harm to Apple because their reputation was already a company that is not good at online

01:39:14   services. Yep. Yep. And the same thing with paying and right. Like all of those things.

01:39:18   Yeah, totally. And this is this hits at their fundamental, like goes back to the earliest

01:39:23   days the company like creating hardware, differentiated hardware mixed with software, and they have

01:39:29   messed up the hardware component to the point where, yeah, I mean, the Wall Street Journal

01:39:33   is writing giant stories about it. So I, again, I love the Mac at a deep level. And I know

01:39:41   a lot of people do. I think the Mac still has lots of diehard Mac users who know tricks

01:39:46   and really and use lots of third party apps and stuff like that. The traditional Mac user,

01:39:52   the type of Mac user who back in the day would read Mac user

01:39:55   magazine, get a magazine just to just to read about what's new

01:39:59   and stuff like that enthusiasts. But even for it's not a bad

01:40:03   thing. I just think it's dangerous for Apple because the

01:40:05   other type of user the casual user who just uses it at a very

01:40:08   thin veneer level, right? And easily switch. And the reason

01:40:12   but why did they use a Mac even though Macs are quote unquote

01:40:14   expensive because they had a reputation as being the best

01:40:16   even if you didn't really care about the software that much you

01:40:18   just wanted a web browser. If you really buy laptops based on the hardware, which is different

01:40:25   than me, to me, it's the ecosystem, I'd rather have a bad laptop running Mac OS 10, than

01:40:29   a perfect hardware laptop running Windows, I would because that's just that's what I

01:40:34   need to do for my work. But I I'm not saying the other people are crazy. I think, you know,

01:40:38   they have a point. Yeah, it's Apple's reputation was it was the best. It was the best laptop

01:40:44   you could buy. So that's fascinating, because obviously, it was the web browser that sort

01:40:48   of also allowed Apple to take off, right?

01:40:52   Because all of a sudden, the software didn't matter

01:40:55   as much as long as you had access to the web browser.

01:40:57   And so if that was both the entry point

01:41:00   and now it's also the exit point, of course,

01:41:02   potentially for these casual users that you're talking about,

01:41:05   like anecdotally, you see a lot more surface tablets

01:41:09   out and about, right?

01:41:11   Because it seems like a well-designed machine.

01:41:14   Yes, it runs Windows, but most people are just using it

01:41:16   for the web browser.

01:41:17   No, it's very true. I definitely see more surfaces out there. Microsoft is quietly,

01:41:23   they've kind of created their own Mac in a sense, right? It's like where the Mac was

01:41:27   back in the day. Like, you know, there's not a lot of them. You don't see, you're not going

01:41:31   to see that picture of the college classroom where with all the illuminated 500 students

01:41:38   have a windows logo on their laptop. But you go into a coffee shop and you're going to

01:41:43   see a couple of them. So let me ask you an offshoot of that, which is that of what you're

01:41:48   just talking about. Do you think because my sense is, I think one way to easily explain what is

01:41:54   happening is that sort of what you what you're suggesting where they're at the point of success

01:41:59   now and it's like, are they focusing on the right stuff? It also feels like those the hardware got

01:42:07   to a point where it was so good that it almost felt like they started tinkering in a way that

01:42:11   that was over-engineering.

01:42:12   And I think the keyboards are a great example of that.

01:42:15   They created an entirely new, you know,

01:42:18   the famous butterfly mechanism

01:42:20   to be able to create a new style of keyboard

01:42:23   that they, at the time, you know,

01:42:25   I remember there was a Johnny Ive video about it, right,

01:42:28   about how the pushdown was more evenly distributed

01:42:31   across the key, right?

01:42:32   - Right, if you push at the corner of the key,

01:42:35   the whole key goes down.

01:42:36   - Right, the whole key goes down.

01:42:37   And so, and that, of course,

01:42:38   they did a great job with that with the track pads, right?

01:42:40   And so it seems like they actually over-engineered

01:42:45   the product where they thought they were obviously

01:42:49   doing it for reasons to make it more reliable.

01:42:51   The exact opposite ended up happening.

01:42:53   And I feel like you can see this

01:42:54   in more and more of the products.

01:42:56   And I think the touch bar is an ultimate example

01:42:58   of this too, right?

01:42:59   Like that is, it's like a thing that the Jeff Goldblum,

01:43:03   Jurassic Park quote, right?

01:43:04   Where it's like, they became so preoccupied

01:43:07   with whether or not they could,

01:43:08   They didn't stop to think if they should type situation.

01:43:11   - Yeah, and there's a couple of other aspects

01:43:13   that tie into that too, that I find a little worrisome.

01:43:16   So like, I don't think I'm alone here.

01:43:19   I feel like there's two types of people

01:43:21   with the arrow key layout.

01:43:22   There's the people like me who really miss

01:43:24   the upside down T, and then there's people

01:43:27   who maybe don't care.

01:43:28   I don't think there's anybody who thinks

01:43:30   that the new layout where the left and right keys

01:43:32   are full height keys is a better design

01:43:35   for those arrow keys.

01:43:37   Why would they change that? Well, I think it's very obvious and to me it's a little worrisome

01:43:42   I do think that the new layout looks better because the keyboard looks better

01:43:48   Aesthetically without those gaps above just two of the keys and instead it's a perfect rectangle

01:43:53   Yeah, but it doesn't work better and that's in direct

01:43:57   Contradiction to the famous Steve Jobs quote that design most people think it's just what it looks like design is how it works

01:44:05   Well, yep that the new arrow key layout does not work better if you use arrow keys a lot and I do while text editing

01:44:12   I use them all the time

01:44:14   It's it's not better. It's worse. It's no doubt. It's worse

01:44:17   It just looks better and I find that very worrisome that there's a and again, I'm not blaming Johnny

01:44:22   I've personally maybe he had nothing to do with it. Maybe he did maybe he's the one who insisted

01:44:26   I don't know

01:44:27   but somewhere in his group is somebody who

01:44:31   Felt strongly enough about how the keyboard looks with full height left and right keys and won the argument

01:44:37   you know and I think the other key just go to the other corner of the keyboard and

01:44:42   The lack of a hardware escape key again

01:44:45   I'm sure most users never touch the escape key

01:44:49   But the users who do use the escape key like developers who use code editors that have the escape key caught, you know map to

01:44:56   Code completion or something like that

01:45:00   Use it all the time and not having a hardware escape key on the touch bar keyboards is driving those people nuts

01:45:06   It's not better. It is definitely not better

01:45:08   It is worse and with that would the touch bar look a little worse with an escape a real escape key

01:45:13   There and only have it replace the f1 through f whatever's I guess it would look a little less clever

01:45:20   But it would work better

01:45:22   That's it's all very worrisome and that is completely aside from the fact that these keyboards have a

01:45:29   don't work. So that leads to the, I think, what is sort of the ultimate question right

01:45:35   now, at least in my head. And so it's not like a unique idea to me, of course. But like,

01:45:39   I do think that this is something I keep coming back to when I'm thinking about these, like,

01:45:43   sort of higher level discussions. So you mentioned, and it's perfect in that you mentioned, you

01:45:47   know, like, Phil Schiller, Johnny Ive, Eddy Cue, Tim Cook, all of these people have their

01:45:52   roles at Apple and have had them for 20 years, in some cases, 25 years, in some cases, right.

01:45:57   And even Tim Cook's, while he's now CEO and has been for a long time at this point, he's

01:46:01   still a logistics guy and an operations guy, right, at his core.

01:46:06   So they don't have, it seems, they obviously do have people, but they don't have the one

01:46:11   product person.

01:46:12   They have Johnny Ive, who's design, they have Phil Schiller, who does marketing, and a lot

01:46:16   of them, and I know he tries to sort of bridge into the product decisions in some cases,

01:46:21   right, and I think many of them do, but they don't have that one sort of head of product

01:46:26   person that I'm aware of at least who sort of makes those ultimate calls which you think could

01:46:31   alleviate at the very least some of these questions and have they had that person since

01:46:37   Steve Jobs has been gone and so is it as simple as that? Maybe you know like I know that you know the

01:46:46   entire internet was for three or four years after his probably starting from when he first got sick

01:46:53   even, right? It wasn't even when he died. It was when he first had to take like a medical leave.

01:46:57   You know, the internet was full of Apple will never survive without Steve Jobs. Apple,

01:47:03   you know, doomed without Steve Jobs or doomed to doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, you know,

01:47:07   talk about infinite content, you could start reading those articles from that era and never,

01:47:12   he'll die before you read all. And they were wrong. Obviously, Apple soared to

01:47:17   untold greater heights afterwards. I so that's right. We all agree that that is that is

01:47:22   absolutely true. Just look at the stock price, look at the valuation of the company, look at the

01:47:25   amount of money they're making. By all vectors, that's true, right? But you could argue that that

01:47:31   was just sort of this period of when everyone kept doing their jobs as they were supposed to be doing

01:47:37   from Tim Cook on down now that he had the new job, but still operations on down. And they were set up

01:47:42   in such a way that this would always become, not always, but in many cases would become this

01:47:48   ultimate company because they could execute on those ideas. And I know that this is sort of a

01:47:53   cliche, but pointing to the when they ran out of sort of the pipeline, would they ever be able to

01:47:59   get out of that? And you could argue that they've even done that pretty well. They didn't have the

01:48:03   Apple Watch correct at first, but then they've been able to back into it. And the AirPods are

01:48:07   a great product, right? But it still sort of feels like they have all of the talents around the table,

01:48:13   but they don't, they're missing just one piece. It's sort of like I'm reminded of the,

01:48:17   Remember swingers the movie from the 90s? Yes at one point there

01:48:20   there are two of the guys that are like trying to have a conversation with the Mikey character of like you're this bear with these

01:48:25   Big fucking claws and you don't know what to do with these fucking claws

01:48:28   And I feel like that's sort of like Apple these days

01:48:31   They have all the pieces in place, but they're not quite sure what they should do with them

01:48:36   And so they're trying all these different things, but there is no

01:48:39   Sort of killer next thing and maybe there never would have been right even with Steve

01:48:43   Who said who could say that there would have ever been that thing?

01:48:46   But they have this great team in place and they're executing on certain parts of it where they need to they just don't quite have

01:48:53   The thing to tie it all together to make the exact right calls in all of these circumstances

01:48:58   Yeah, I've said this before I forget

01:49:01   which episode I

01:49:03   I

01:49:05   Do feel like one of the things that they're missing with Steve Jobs isn't the creation of big new thing and and watch an air

01:49:12   pods are good examples. They, they could do it without him. I feel like maybe, and he

01:49:17   was good at that, of course, he famously good in, you know, world famously good. But the

01:49:21   other thing that he was so good at was putting his finger on what was wrong. And saying this

01:49:27   is wrong, fix it and holding people responsible. And I know, again, it is dangerous territory

01:49:35   for an Apple commentator podcaster to get into this. It wouldn't have happened if Steve

01:49:39   Jobs was still around I right would like to think that I have over the last seven eight years

01:49:45   Done a very good job of dancing around that

01:49:49   Using it, you know talking about it when it's apt not not pretending like it's you know

01:49:54   Like there is no difference between not having them but not overusing it

01:49:57   But I cannot help but think that this keyboard thing would have been fixed sooner that I really feel like he was good at

01:50:04   At some point, you know again, I don't think the problem was shipping this this keyboard in the first place

01:50:09   And I've had arguments with Twitter on people. They're like they should have known this keyboard was crap from the beginning

01:50:14   I'm sure that in their development of it the keys weren't getting stuck

01:50:18   I don't know what rate the keys get stuck

01:50:20   But it's a low enough rate that I can see how it went through development and came out and it seems like different keyboards are

01:50:26   Better than others. It seems like the people

01:50:29   Anecdotally, it seems like people who have the regular MacBook the one port MacBook don't seem to have the problem as much as other people

01:50:36   I don't know why but that's the one that shipped with it first

01:50:38   I believe because it needed to be so thin because the device is so crazy thin

01:50:41   But at some point in the three years since they've switched to this keyboard

01:50:45   And again, even if the data doesn't back it up

01:50:50   but I pretty sure that it does that the data shows that these keyboards are

01:50:55   Far less reliable than apples all of apples previous MacBook and power book keyboards to the dawn of time

01:51:00   Even if the data doesn't back it up though, even if somebody can say look here's our support rate

01:51:06   It's this, you know, it's three point seven percent and it used to be three point five percent

01:51:11   So it's two tenths of one percent difference, you know from the previous generation, right?

01:51:16   Even if that's the case the reputational harm is obviously real because people are talking about it

01:51:22   Joanna Stern is mocking them in her Wall Street Journal column with an actual keyboard that

01:51:27   is actually have as keys that don't work.

01:51:31   You know, Casey Johnston has, you know, of all people to buy another, I saw her Mac.

01:51:37   Yeah, she bought the newer one.

01:51:38   Yeah.

01:51:39   And started having spacebar problems.

01:51:42   You know, think about that in the context of, you know, you talked about the mobile

01:51:46   me famous you know town hall thing that they did internally and and Steve Jobs was irate but there

01:51:53   was also that famous story right of when Walt Mossberg gave the one bad review and like you

01:51:58   know and Jobs said like Walt Mossberg is is you know talking shit about this thing like

01:52:03   so why aren't they doing that now right right like and I can't help but fear I I have reason to

01:52:09   believe I don't want to go into it it's all like third maybe fourth hand it is like so far whispered

01:52:14   Down the alley that it's not even worth taking as anything other than hope

01:52:18   But I have heard that there is a new keyboard in the works

01:52:23   And I don't know if it's I don't know if it is all a butterfly

01:52:27   I don't know what it is, but I've heard it has a bit more travel

01:52:29   I think they might be going back to the upside down T on the

01:52:33   Arrows, I think yeah, but I don't know how soon it's going to come out and and I

01:52:40   Think that's part of the problem too with with today's Apple. Is that they if it's not the iPhone?

01:52:47   It's not that they don't care. It's not like they're you know, and I feel like they're cautious about becoming over

01:52:53   Reliant on the yeah overly reliant on the iPhone and that's why they're pushing into services and they realize that then maybe you know

01:53:00   They've reached peak iPhone years ago

01:53:02   but

01:53:04   They just don't seem to be able to muster. Yeah

01:53:08   For anything they still have to make decisions and write the day right still the most important decisions while it's maybe a fading

01:53:15   Well, it's maybe peak iPhone still the most important decisions have to be around the right

01:53:19   So so, you know somebody there they've they've put a new keyboard into I mean

01:53:24   Even if there were no problems with the keyboard they tend to switch, you know update keyboards every four or five years anyway

01:53:29   So, I mean, it's not like it but it just doesn't seem to me though that they treating this keyboard thing with the pants on fire

01:53:37   Intensity that they should have and that they're like, well, it's just the MacBook lineup. So we'll get to it

01:53:42   well, we'll get a new keyboard into the works, but you know

01:53:46   This might be a 2020 thing or something by the time it ships and who knows how long it'll be before it ships across the entire

01:53:51   Lineup because they do things like let the MacBook Air sit

01:53:55   Unchanged for three or four years while they wait for Intel to come up with a chip that they like etc

01:54:00   And so a large part of this is obviously just Apple operating at a scale that's unheard of and certainly for them

01:54:06   you know, like 10 years ago, it was a much smaller scale. And so they didn't have to worry,

01:54:10   let alone 20 years ago and whatnot, as much about just, you know, the word matriculating out about

01:54:16   problems with things and they just didn't, they weren't doing as much, right. And so there wasn't

01:54:19   nearly as much ground to cover. But it also feels like this is all related to, I guess, when I,

01:54:25   when I listened to you talk about it, the phrase I think about is like reading the room. And it's,

01:54:31   in this case, the room is sort of the world, right? But they're, they're getting, they seem

01:54:34   to be a little bit worse these days at reading the room with regard to like doing things like

01:54:41   not only the keyboard, which is an extreme example, but even things on down the line, like,

01:54:46   you know, they obviously screwed up with the with the Mac Pro. And, and, you know, you could argue,

01:54:51   there were all sorts of reasons for that. And I'm sure there's lots of valid arguments for that.

01:54:54   But they they're not thinking through sort of the second, the second tier effects of these

01:55:00   decisions that they're making necessarily. And again, just at a higher level, reading the room

01:55:05   about like, what, what they should sort of be focused on. And that's easy for us to say from

01:55:10   afar, of course. But I do feel like we're seeing the degradation of various parts and products in

01:55:17   some cases, because they're not quite reading the room, right? Yeah, maybe HomePod is a good example

01:55:22   of that, too. It just in terms of, I like it. I think it sounds great. I really love having two

01:55:28   of them in our kitchen. I think it sounds it it occasionally just startles me how good it sounds

01:55:33   but it's 350 bucks a pop. I got 329 or 329 a pop now. And just in terms of reading the room

01:55:42   and reading you know like and who knows you know they're all Bezos numbers but you know Amazon says

01:55:47   is the best-selling sound system in the world you know and it's the $49 or whatever you know the one

01:55:52   that who knows what they're selling but they're clearly selling in quantity and this seems to be

01:55:56   the sort of fun purchased, you know, like I want to be able to talk to my speaker and tell it to play music that people

01:56:02   Seem to want to spend like a hundred dollars on yeah, and I mean I write I wrote exactly about this this thing before it launched

01:56:10   Thinking it's it's basically I'm sure it'll be a good product and it is a good product. It's just this

01:56:15   It's a mixture of the wrong strategy

01:56:17   Sort of mixed with that that leading them to create sort of the wrong price point of a product

01:56:22   right? Because, and they could argue with their history that they've always created products

01:56:26   that are more expensive and more focused and or whatnot. And that's fine. And that's fine until

01:56:31   it's not, it's not correct anymore. It's not always to say that the same thing that worked

01:56:36   in the past is going to work in the future. And I think you could, if you were reading the room

01:56:39   correctly, as you know, like some of us could from outside of the company and, and you know,

01:56:44   obviously a lot of people have said this, but like, I feel like you can read the room correctly

01:56:50   and then get to what the sort of correct combination of things you should be focused on is. And

01:56:57   I go back to again sort of a head of product or whatever sort of person in charge of that

01:57:04   specific part of the company should be able to sort of at least steer the right direction

01:57:08   for them.

01:57:09   Yeah. An interesting what if scenario that I was talking to somebody who actually works

01:57:14   at Apple, you know, but, you know, but a friend just as an interesting what if so to make

01:57:21   a new lower tiered, you know, $750 iPhone in the 10 class family, they made the iPhone

01:57:28   10 R. And I think the 10 R is doing pretty well. I don't think it's the new five C. I

01:57:31   think it's doing pretty well. Yeah, but it was it's an all new device. They they went

01:57:36   crazy on the screen and like for cost purposes, they didn't want to go OLED like the 10 s

01:57:42   and 10s max. They went with an LCD screen, but to get it to go as close to the edges

01:57:49   as they did all the way around all four sides was a tremendous effort. It's crazy what they

01:57:56   did. Neil, I believe, uh, took a microscope with his XR review to, to show what they're

01:58:02   doing at the corners. And then when you look at a, like a Google pixel that has fake rounded

01:58:07   corners, right? You see it just how it's like, wow,

01:58:11   Literally cutting corners. Yeah, just cutting corners, right?

01:58:13   What if though?

01:58:16   instead of spending all that effort on the 10r they had done it for the

01:58:20   Lower priced iPads instead and you could have gotten you know with these iPads

01:58:25   They just released a couple of weeks ago like the new mini

01:58:27   the new

01:58:30   9.7 model Pro. Yeah, what if they had gone and done or sorry the air it's not yeah

01:58:38   You know, they obviously didn't they obviously took a very cost-efficient thing and said we'll just take the existing industrial design

01:58:46   and we'll just update some components and

01:58:48   You know, why didn't they go full 10 are on those devices and it's because I think

01:58:53   Institutionally, I think clearly could have the company has more money than God

01:58:58   It just isn't it it's not enough to get their interest right like they're just only the iPhone gets that sort of attention

01:59:07   Yeah, that's an interesting interesting question

01:59:10   Because I'm in the mind of like so I was I'm a huge iPad

01:59:13   Minifan and have been forever and all I wanted is exactly what they finally gave us right the updated internals to the exact same

01:59:21   Form factor and then so I'm super happy with that

01:59:24   Wouldn't you be happier though if it went corner to corner? I?

01:59:27   Think yes, right so yes

01:59:31   But with a caveat that I don't and this is a whole nother

01:59:35   You know can of worms, but I don't love the new iPad. I'm using it right now

01:59:39   I don't love the new iPad Pro design. Hmm. I like the rounded sort of back

01:59:45   Form factor more of the old iPad Pro. I love the screen, you know, obviously it's better not to have the the bigger bezels on the

01:59:52   You know the front of the screen

01:59:54   But would I trade that for the a different back or the flatter sort of sides?

02:00:00   I don't know maybe but an offshoot of your your question too is like

02:00:05   I think I'm not alone in a lot of people are saying this and and I think you're talking about this with

02:00:09   Moltz last week right like where a lot of people still want the SE right a version of the SE what

02:00:15   should Apple make the iPhone mini you know some version of the SE again versus doing a 10R type

02:00:22   thing because another problem with so I just I mentioned you know that I bought for for Megan

02:00:26   uh the the 10s uh the you know the smaller one not the max and um I was very sort of torn by that

02:00:33   because right now she has an iPhone 8 and she likes that size. She didn't want a bigger size.

02:00:39   I know the XS is fairly close. It's just a bigger screen, obviously, but it's still bigger. And she

02:00:45   didn't want bigger. And there's a lot of people in that camp. And instead they made the XR,

02:00:49   which is actually bigger than the XS. Right. And so another question like would that,

02:00:56   would it have behooved Apple more to do a small, you know, who's to say exactly. But I do think

02:01:02   that these are interesting questions that you hope that they're debating quite rigorously internally.

02:01:06   JS Yeah, when you're the only company that makes iPhones,

02:01:09   is three sizes enough? I mean, I don't know. And really, the 10R to me isn't really a third size.

02:01:16   It's…

02:01:17   JS Yeah, it's something different.

02:01:19   JS Yeah, it is something different. There really are only two sizes of iPhones, you know. And

02:01:24   if you're the only company and you're selling it to, you know, hundreds of millions of people,

02:01:29   maybe there should be more, you know, it's it's almost on you. It's highly unusual that

02:01:34   that one company with so much at stake only makes two devices, you know, two, three devices for the

02:01:40   entire lineup. Yeah. Especially given like, look at how many iPads they make, how many different

02:01:47   versions of the iPad they like they've the mini, the air, the pro, the regular, so they have more

02:01:53   skews of the iPad, right? Yeah. Yeah, they do. And they're very different sizes, much more variety in

02:02:00   the sizes than there are on the on the phone. Yeah, I don't know. It's, it's, it's unusual.

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02:04:58   I don't know.

02:04:59   Do you think I gave a good answer to that about the state of Apple?

02:05:02   I think so.

02:05:03   I think it's very complicated for a number of reasons, of course, but it is, I'm curious

02:05:13   what feedback we'll get on this, right?

02:05:15   Because it's like, it is the discussion about, is Apple doomed, sort of, but it's also much

02:05:20   more nuanced than that.

02:05:21   And I feel like it is just, it's a very long discussion that's going to go on for years

02:05:25   and years and years.

02:05:27   And it's not like Apple is, I mean, the size and the scope at which Apple now operates,

02:05:35   they're going to be around if everything went wrong.

02:05:38   If the keyboard situation happened on every product across the line, they would still

02:05:43   be around for another, you know, like 40 years, 50 years.

02:05:46   So much capital, they have so much cash in the bank.

02:05:50   It's silly to talk about a company being doomed, but it is interesting to think about which

02:05:54   way the giant oil tanker of a vessel is sort of moving, right?

02:06:00   They could turn into the Apple that anti-Apple critics have always said was Apple, which

02:06:06   is that people just buy it for the Apple logo.

02:06:08   People buy their crap products for the Apple logo.

02:06:10   That's it.

02:06:11   They just think it's cool.

02:06:12   They could turn into that and still do well, you know?

02:06:15   Yes, 100%.

02:06:17   And I also think that it's interesting discussion in the context of what we're seeing now with

02:06:21   Microsoft, right?

02:06:22   they have turned the ship around with Satya Nadella. They just hit the trillion dollar

02:06:26   valuation mark the other day. So people were celebrating that again, just how much of a

02:06:30   different company it is. Ben Thompson, a few other folks and I were having this long Twitter back and

02:06:35   forth about what that means. Steven Sinofsky got involved. And so, you know, like how much of it

02:06:41   was a full on pivot of the company versus just a change in leadership versus just time again,

02:06:47   passing. And sort of like my argument there that I have in my head, at least, and you know, I don't

02:06:53   watch Microsoft nearly as closely, but like, it does seem like that people are shitting on Balmer,

02:06:59   and in some cases, rightfully so, I'm sure, but like, he did in a way, he helped them by putting

02:07:06   the company, getting the company to a point where it could be ready for change, right? Because it

02:07:13   It was such an extreme version of what Microsoft was under Bill Gates.

02:07:16   And it was just, you know, sort of milking the profits and doing the extreme version of Windows everywhere and all that kind of stuff, where the company was then in the position to be ready for the services movement.

02:07:28   And Sinofsky would argue that some of that stuff was put in place years in advance.

02:07:31   And of course it was.

02:07:33   But the company was not ready to move at that point and needed, you know, maybe it's as simple as they needed the manager change, right, in order to institute some of these changes.

02:07:42   And so thinking about that in the context of Apple, like Tim Cook, I do not want to compare

02:07:47   Tim Cook to Steve Vomer, but like, would you know, is he the guy who's been executing it at an

02:07:53   unseen pace and bringing in insane profits? But is there, you know, Tim Cook will eventually retire,

02:07:58   of course. And what happens to the company as that next leader comes in? Is it a full on pivot?

02:08:06   Obviously, Tim Cook is trying to institute that sort of in a way right now with services,

02:08:10   Not a full-on pivot maybe but but that being the next big part of growth

02:08:13   And so does a new leader come in and make that the full company sort of like what Microsoft has done

02:08:18   Yeah, it's I wouldn't call it a pivot because to me a pivot means moving from something to something right?

02:08:23   Whereas this is an expansion of what Apple does in a minute

02:08:27   I guess I would say it's the pivot in the growth area of the company right like if the growth was the iPhone and it's no

02:08:32   Longer gonna be iPhone now the growth is services, right?

02:08:35   And they don't you know, well the watch is a big hit and the air pods are a hit

02:08:39   but they just don't seem as interested in

02:08:42   Well for significant growth you're never gonna do it I guess no you can't it's the iPhone was the greatest business ever created up

02:08:52   Until this point right you cannot create another product that will be like that. And so I think they're wrecking they've recognized that and

02:08:58   So what do you do you have to create a whole?

02:09:02   slew of different things to in order to create the level of a level of growth that

02:09:07   Sort of Wall Street appreciates at them that everyone else appreciates

02:09:10   When you're at this the size of a company is that Apple that continues hovers around the trillion dollar mark now?

02:09:17   I'm looking forward to I feel like this is a an important

02:09:21   WWDC and and I don't want to keep coming back to the Mac, but I feel like

02:09:26   we've got like

02:09:28   two contradictory

02:09:30   narratives on where Apple's taking the Mac.

02:09:33   There's this marzipan angle,

02:09:35   where technical aspects of it aside,

02:09:38   they're sort of turning it into,

02:09:42   in some ways at a consumer level,

02:09:43   turning the Mac into a simplified iOS-like computing device

02:09:48   as opposed to being a computer.

02:09:51   - Right. - Right,

02:09:52   where the apps are sandboxed and some, you know,

02:09:55   the apps that they, they're simple apps

02:09:57   The Apple News app doesn't even open multiple windows.

02:10:01   It's just a one window app.

02:10:02   And we know that there's more of these Marzipan apps coming

02:10:07   and it's gonna be a third party technology

02:10:09   where developers are gonna be able to use this

02:10:11   to share more code.

02:10:12   And is it all gonna be in the interest of turning the Mac

02:10:15   into more of an iOS like device

02:10:19   as opposed to being a computer, a computer as a computer?

02:10:22   Or is this something they're doing alongside the Mac

02:10:25   still being a powerhouse?

02:10:27   the powerhouse workstation for serious pro level computing. And the thing I keep coming back to

02:10:33   when I get worried is I keep coming back to the really unusual approach that they took to the Mac

02:10:41   Pro now what two years ago, where they called a couple of us in and said, look, you know, we kind

02:10:48   of screwed up with this trashcan Mac Pro back to what did Federighi say we backed ourselves into a

02:10:53   painted ourselves into a thermal corner, right? You know, and said, we're gonna, you know,

02:10:58   we're committed, you know, we have a pro iMac coming that we think is fantastic for a lot of

02:11:04   our pro users told us about it months before, you know, six, seven months before it came out.

02:11:09   It is a fantastic computer. It is a very serious pro computer. But they said, you know, two years

02:11:16   in advance, we're gonna we're still but we know that some pro users need more, and we're, we're

02:11:20   committed to them. So is the company that's committed to this seemingly super expensive,

02:11:25   powerful, and if it's taken them two years to make it ought to be pretty impressive, right?

02:11:31   You know, you know, like I keep saying, like, when they did this, there was so many people,

02:11:36   so many nerds who want, you know, developer types who just want them to just make a big box,

02:11:41   like you used to just make a Mac Pro and a big square box and put Intel's biggest chip in there,

02:11:46   and then screw it back together and ship it.

02:11:49   (laughs)

02:11:50   You know, like so whatever they're doing

02:11:51   that's taken two years,

02:11:53   hopefully it's going to be impressive.

02:11:54   I presume we're gonna see it at WWDC.

02:11:57   And so what I would really like to see is

02:11:59   that they can walk and chew gum at the same time.

02:12:01   And that for typical users, they can turn the Mac,

02:12:04   keep improving the Mac and maybe, you know,

02:12:06   make it even simpler, make it more, you know,

02:12:09   make some things that are the same as they are on the iPad.

02:12:12   And at the same time, for those who want and need it,

02:12:15   keep the Mac as a very powerful computer as a computer

02:12:19   that you have, you the user have all the magical abilities

02:12:22   you have when you can have your software and your scripts

02:12:25   and your stuff really just have at it on the hardware.

02:12:30   - So I think that that is maybe the critical question of,

02:12:35   yeah, this year going into 2020, can they thread,

02:12:39   how do they even thread that needle

02:12:40   and what are they looking to do threading that needle?

02:12:43   'Cause the other avenue that's an offshoot

02:12:45   of what you're talking about and why I think the Mac Pro

02:12:48   and some of the other decisions they made

02:12:49   were such mistakes was they looked at the absolute numbers

02:12:52   and saw that it's not massive,

02:12:54   certainly not compared to iOS.

02:12:55   But they didn't recognize perhaps the trickle down effects

02:13:00   and also just the halo effect,

02:13:03   going back to the iPod days,

02:13:05   but like the halo effect of something like the Mac Pro

02:13:07   where it's like every single user in Hollywood

02:13:11   was using a powerful Mac to create all of the movies

02:13:16   that we were all watching, right?

02:13:18   And they sort of, because that's like behind the scenes

02:13:21   and you don't really think about it

02:13:22   and they don't get love for it necessarily,

02:13:25   they didn't think about like the Halo effects

02:13:27   and the trickle down effects of that part of the business

02:13:30   where there are real ones and it's starting to get eaten

02:13:32   into by other companies who are just focused more on that.

02:13:35   - Yeah, what you just said, times a thousand.

02:13:39   And I had a conversation with a friend recently,

02:13:42   long time Mac developer,

02:13:43   who made the analogy to,

02:13:48   that car companies today don't,

02:13:51   are moving away from making cars for enthusiast drivers.

02:13:56   Like, I'm not a car guy,

02:13:59   so I can't think of the best examples.

02:14:00   I wish I was more of one,

02:14:01   but I'll just, just to name one,

02:14:03   like back when I was younger,

02:14:05   Honda used to have a car called the Prelude,

02:14:07   And it was a perfect name.

02:14:09   It was, and one of my friends' parents had one

02:14:11   and I thought it was the coolest car

02:14:13   for like your parents to have.

02:14:15   But the Honda Prelude, it was such a great name,

02:14:17   is it would have technology that wasn't ready

02:14:20   for like the Accord and Civic yet beforehand.

02:14:23   And like the VTech engine that Honda has,

02:14:25   I don't even know what the hell VTech engine,

02:14:27   I don't know what it means.

02:14:28   I've got one, I have an Acura up in my,

02:14:31   the garage that has one, I don't know what it means

02:14:33   'cause I'm not a car guy.

02:14:34   But like in the '80s when they first invented

02:14:36   VTech engine, it showed up in the prelude first. And then it would trickle down to the

02:14:42   accord years later. And that cars today, they don't know what to do with them. And there

02:14:49   are too many cars you buy, they're too heavy, and they've just got all sorts of crap you

02:14:53   don't need on the doors and stuff like that. Because they don't know what to do. And it's

02:14:58   that loss of focus on the enthusiast market, even if it's only going to sell and truly

02:15:04   insignificant to the company's financials numbers, or maybe even be a bit of a loss

02:15:09   because it doesn't, you know, it sells in such low numbers, right? It keeps the company

02:15:14   focused on that enthusiast market and keeps those drivers happy or in Apple's case, keeps

02:15:21   those Mac users happy who are genuine enthusiasts who want their computers to be super fast

02:15:26   and super well made. There's a trickle like you said, I just borrow your phrase, there's

02:15:32   trickle-down effect that it's hard I don't know that you can quantify it I don't think it's you

02:15:36   know it's intangibles you can't measure that that that market I think about the education market too

02:15:44   they sort of did a mea culpa there as well right because they see the inroads that Chromebooks

02:15:48   have had whereas they used to dominate the education markets and yeah they just like you

02:15:56   know they they've they pulled back from these things because it's not the most obvious things

02:16:01   but from their bottom line perspective and or from just the scale perspective, right?

02:16:06   But there are intangibles that I think that you really have to consider.

02:16:11   Jon Moffitt Right. You know, it's a, maybe it's a bad example, but like, what I would like to see

02:16:18   them do is the, to keep the edge is at the, at the nerd level, at the power user level on the Mac,

02:16:30   to keep that focus and to just prove,

02:16:33   you know, exercise their muscles and keep that going

02:16:36   is the same way that like with the original Apple Watch,

02:16:39   they came out with a $20,000 gold one.

02:16:42   Which clearly what, you know,

02:16:44   it's a bad analogy

02:16:47   'cause it's a totally different type of thing.

02:16:49   It's like the sensible, objectively thinking nerd

02:16:53   were the type of users who were like,

02:16:56   "What the f is Apple doing

02:16:57   making $20,000 gold digital watches.

02:17:00   - Yep.

02:17:01   - But at the let's make a statement to the watch industry,

02:17:05   let's flex our ability to work with new alloys

02:17:09   and do stuff.

02:17:11   I don't think that it looks,

02:17:12   it was a bit of a silly product,

02:17:14   but I don't know that it was a mistake.

02:17:16   I don't know that it was a bad idea

02:17:17   because I think it was a way for Apple

02:17:20   to sort of flex muscles in that area

02:17:22   and send a message to the watch industry.

02:17:24   - Yeah, yeah.

02:17:25   And it really clearly wasn't worth their time financially.

02:17:28   You know, it was not, it was, you know,

02:17:30   it was not a popular product.

02:17:32   And I don't think anybody at Apple

02:17:34   really ever thought it would be.

02:17:36   But it's that everything they do

02:17:38   shouldn't necessarily be to make a hit product.

02:17:40   I think some of it is just developing muscles

02:17:44   in certain areas.

02:17:46   - I think that that is a great point.

02:17:48   And I think it's an important point for a company,

02:17:50   again, that operates at the scale and size

02:17:53   that Apple does now because they have to recognize

02:17:57   that not everything can be,

02:17:59   certainly nothing can be the iPhone scale.

02:18:01   And so what are you as a company

02:18:03   when you can't replicate that?

02:18:05   And the answer is,

02:18:07   I mean there's a few answers that it could be,

02:18:09   but it seems like the answer is

02:18:12   doing a bunch of different things

02:18:15   without going overboard and doing too much.

02:18:18   They're famous things about what they say no to and whatnot.

02:18:22   But also, they can push the envelope,

02:18:25   like you're talking about, in ways that no other company can.

02:18:27   Because if another company set out to do--

02:18:30   to use the gold Apple Watch-- but let's say it's a $10,000

02:18:36   Mac Pro.

02:18:36   Right?

02:18:38   Companies cannot afford-- most companies cannot afford

02:18:41   to do that.

02:18:41   They just don't have the resources to do that,

02:18:43   nor could they afford that to not sell in quantities

02:18:48   without it actually affecting the business.

02:18:50   Apple can afford to do that kind of stuff.

02:18:52   And they just have to recognize that it's maybe not going to move the needle in terms

02:18:57   of growth, in terms of bottom line, but it does have these halo effects.

02:19:01   It does have intangibles.

02:19:02   It does have trickle-down effects.

02:19:04   Maybe that, you know, like you're talking about, those components eventually make their

02:19:07   way into the next MacBook Pro.

02:19:09   And now they have a better sense of what people use that for.

02:19:13   They have a better sense of just pushing the envelope.

02:19:18   They have a better sense of staying at the cutting edge,

02:19:20   being state of the art.

02:19:21   And because the iPhone became such a mass market phenomenon,

02:19:26   whereas no other Apple product was like that previously,

02:19:29   besides I guess the iPod was the first one,

02:19:31   but not at that scale,

02:19:33   they're just a different company now

02:19:35   and not used to doing things

02:19:37   that aren't going to be at mass scale.

02:19:38   And why don't they get back to that?

02:19:39   That's sort of their,

02:19:40   that was their bread and butter in the earlier days, right?

02:19:42   - Right.

02:19:43   Yeah, I'm not asking for 500 no's for every 500 yeses.

02:19:47   You know, keep it a thousand nos to every yes.

02:19:50   But maybe, you know, a few more yeses

02:19:54   for good ideas that would be useful, you know,

02:20:00   that would be interesting for Apple strategically,

02:20:02   even if the result isn't the bottom line.

02:20:06   - And that's almost like the Amazon mentality

02:20:09   when you think about it there, right?

02:20:10   Where it's like, the Fire Phone, total disaster.

02:20:12   Yet it may, you know, they would argue

02:20:14   that it birthed Alexa and, you know,

02:20:16   subsequent other, I just triggered the, as you say, dingus, sorry.

02:20:20   (laughing)

02:20:22   I have actually, I have a, a home, there's Alexa.

02:20:27   I have a HomePod, a Google Home, and the other one in here.

02:20:31   So I'm at real risk.

02:20:33   But yes, but so like the Amazon mentality of it basically,

02:20:38   you don't wanna say throwing stuff at a wall

02:20:41   and see what sticks, but you do wanna,

02:20:43   oh sorry, there we go.

02:20:45   I'm muting her.

02:20:46   You don't want to throw things at a wall and see what sticks but at the same time you do want to push the envelope, right?

02:20:51   Even if you don't even you know

02:20:54   Yeah, even if you don't think it's going to be a smash hit that's my concern one of my big concerns about Apple is if they

02:21:02   Don't see it as being a big hit. They don't it doesn't get their interest and they don't try

02:21:06   You know and I don't I'm not convinced of it. It's just a worry

02:21:12   Yeah, I think it's a very relevant worry in this time, especially because they're trying to you know, so like the

02:21:19   services

02:21:21   services services services everyone knows car thing is still

02:21:24   Seems like you know

02:21:26   It's the big team working on that though

02:21:27   They have layoffs and then they hire more people and then of course the the glasses thing is the other thing

02:21:32   That's like the worst-kept secret out here that many people on that team

02:21:35   It seems like are working on some sort of newfangled product. And so they probably feel like from their perspective

02:21:41   look, we have these sort of three things, services, the car, the glasses thing that are sort of our

02:21:46   go-forward strategy thing. So we can't sort of, you know, we are pushing the envelope. We don't

02:21:51   need to do anything else. And like, I think our sort of summation of what we're talking about

02:21:55   here is just like, remember the stuff that you already have and don't lose sight of that. And

02:22:01   don't think that you can't sort of revisit some of those things and at the same time.

02:22:09   Don't cheap out on it. Like that's my my I don't think this is the case. I'm optimistic but you know if the whole if

02:22:16   WWDC comes and goes and we see these new marzipan apps from Apple and it really just looks like oh

02:22:21   they're just trying to cheap out and

02:22:23   Only, you know, just click a button and Xcode and have the iPad app ship on the Mac

02:22:27   So they don't have to have a Mac team doing

02:22:29   These apps that's bad, right like, you know, yeah

02:22:35   You know, I what I'm out is your read on why they're doing the yeah

02:22:40   I know we're going pretty long here. But what is your read on why they're doing?

02:22:44   marzipan is it so much that

02:22:47   There's the developer community is so massive for iOS that this opens up a whole new

02:22:51   Avenue for them with the Mac or is it the flipside the worst version which is that?

02:22:57   This is sort of the beginning of the graceful fade of the Mac and it just melts more into an iOS device. I

02:23:05   I don't know. I feel like what we learned last year wasn't enough to know. So that's why

02:23:10   that question to me is what I want to answer. That's the question I want answers from at WWDC

02:23:17   this year. I think that part of it is a vague goal to get more apps that aren't even on the Mac at

02:23:29   at all to get these developers to go through the,

02:23:34   whatever you have to do to get your iOS app

02:23:36   to become a marzipan Mac app and do it.

02:23:39   But I kind of feel like Apple might be wrong there

02:23:43   that it's going to work.

02:23:44   I don't think there's anything they can do

02:23:49   to make it so quote unquote easy to get a Mac version

02:23:53   that's gonna get them to stop shipping,

02:23:55   like get Slack to stop shipping Slack for Mac

02:23:57   as a giant 300 gigabyte electron turd.

02:24:01   I just don't--

02:24:03   - And I think you're right that that's the likely outcome

02:24:08   and that's troublesome, right?

02:24:09   Because it means that they're both distracted

02:24:12   by this weird initiative and if it backfires,

02:24:15   it just looks like they're just sort of launching

02:24:18   this weird amalgamation of software

02:24:20   that people aren't gonna use or shouldn't use

02:24:23   and so what is the ultimate purpose?

02:24:26   they then just backtrack? Like is it like the, you know, something that they tried and then they

02:24:31   don't do? I do worry that it's, they'll obviously say, we already know what they're going to say,

02:24:38   because they've said it many times, like, the Mac and iOS are different, different things,

02:24:43   different beasts, different devices. They're always going to coexist together. And I think

02:24:48   we can all agree like that always is certainly not true. Like it's not always, it's not in 100 years,

02:24:53   are we going to have both of them? Unlikely. So the question is, when do we cross the point?

02:25:01   And is this a step in that direction, even if inadvertently, right?

02:25:05   At a certain level, and I'm not going to turn this into a developer podcast, but basically

02:25:12   Mac apps are written in a framework called AppKit, and AppKit dates all the way back to like 1989

02:25:18   or 1990 at next and the frameworks you know some of them have continuity all the way from 1989 to now

02:25:27   UI kit so that iOS has never had app kit iOS replaces app kit with something called UI kit

02:25:36   and basically what for stall and his team did in the development of the original iPhone

02:25:42   and they were all you know like forced all was an old next hand they all knew the team making it

02:25:47   new AppKit in and out, it was a sort of, okay, it's 2005, 2006, what would we do differently

02:25:54   in AppKit now, knowing now that we didn't know then? What can we improve? What's awkward

02:26:00   and lengthy and verbal? You have to type a lot of code to do this in AppKit. What could

02:26:07   we do in UIKit to make it easier? And so, there's a lot of developers who think UIKit

02:26:13   that is easier than AppKit.

02:26:14   And it's a lot easier to go from AppKit to UIKit.

02:26:18   So if you were a Mac developer

02:26:20   back when the iPhone came out,

02:26:22   you could go to UIKit and say,

02:26:23   oh, I see this is just like blank, blank, blank,

02:26:25   and stuff was, even though stuff was different,

02:26:27   it was usually easier.

02:26:28   Whereas the vice versa is harder, seemingly.

02:26:31   That UIKit developers, developers who make iPhone apps,

02:26:35   if they go and look at the Mac,

02:26:36   they think, well, this looks like a lot more work

02:26:38   than what I'm used to.

02:26:39   I could just do XYZ here.

02:26:41   I have to go all the way from A to Z here.

02:26:44   Long story short.

02:26:46   So the idea might be, if in the optimistic sense,

02:26:50   is that this is just Apple's strategy

02:26:53   for keeping the Mac vibrant for years to come.

02:26:56   And here is a better, more modern way

02:26:59   to make truly rich Mac apps

02:27:03   that are as Mac-like as you could hope for,

02:27:07   but a better way for new frameworks

02:27:09   and a modern set of APIs for developers.

02:27:12   Like a lot less about, hey, just click this one checkbox

02:27:16   and your iPad app turns into a Mac app, and a lot more,

02:27:20   hey, we've got a whole week worth of sessions

02:27:22   for you developers where we cannot wait to tell you

02:27:24   and you can dig in and you can make these rich, thorough,

02:27:27   as deep as you want, powerful as you want Mac apps,

02:27:31   using a more modern set of APIs.

02:27:34   And if you're an iPhone developer,

02:27:35   you're gonna find this a lot more comfortable.

02:27:37   - So I love that narrative,

02:27:38   And I hope that that's the case for sure.

02:27:40   Is there something?

02:27:42   Is there an offshoot of that, which also perhaps makes it easier for when they of course, transition

02:27:48   the MacBook to the a series chips?

02:27:51   Is there something about that?

02:27:52   I don't think so.

02:27:53   Because I don't know.

02:27:54   I mean, to me, it would be worrisome if they go that way.

02:27:57   And then they say, and the only Mac apps that make the transition are these marzipan apps.

02:28:01   Right?

02:28:02   that the way that I don't think there's anything related to Mac apps as we know

02:28:09   them in AppKit that would prevent them from cross compiling to a series arm

02:28:13   chips and most developers I know at least ever since the power PC to Intel

02:28:20   switch have been like if they got caught with code that didn't easily go from

02:28:26   power PC to Intel they're never gonna make that mistake again mm-hmm like I

02:28:30   I think Adobe will be ready to go.

02:28:32   I think Microsoft, Adobe in particular,

02:28:34   would be the one that's more important

02:28:35   because Adobe's apps are more performance.

02:28:39   - Right, right.

02:28:40   Oriented.

02:28:41   - Yeah, oriented.

02:28:42   So I don't think so.

02:28:43   But it could be, you know, it could be just for,

02:28:46   not for technical reasons that developers

02:28:48   couldn't just cross, like a new version of Xcode

02:28:51   that spits out ARM Mac apps.

02:28:53   Most, I think most Mac apps would just be,

02:28:56   you'd just click a button in the toolbar in Xcode

02:28:58   Out pops an app that runs natively on both. I don't think I don't think they need this switch for that

02:29:03   But we shall see anyway

02:29:07   We've run over our allotted time

02:29:10   I don't know if there's anything else you wanted to talk about but I could I could I could say we wrap this up

02:29:15   We'll wrap it up and talk again and earlier than two years. Yeah earlier than two years

02:29:19   MG Siegler, thank you very much. You're

02:29:23   You've got your your website now that you do most your writing is 500 ish.com

02:29:28   Yes, five hundred five zero zero ish.com five hundred ish words at a time

02:29:33   Do you ever pay attention to the word count dude?

02:29:35   I tried to when I first started doing it a few years several years ago at this point

02:29:39   But now I mean, you know, you know the way it goes

02:29:42   Yeah

02:29:42   Sit down to write something and the 500 turns into a thousand in no time

02:29:45   And so yeah, I would I would I guess that on average they're like 800 most of the time. Yeah, that's one thing that's funny

02:29:51   I've said this before like if I grew up in a different era

02:29:54   I'm sure I could do it and I used to write in a college newspaper and there were definite space constraints

02:30:00   You know, there was a minimum and a maximum length to an op-ed column

02:30:03   But I've really lost that muscle

02:30:06   I

02:30:08   Wrote back page columns for Mac world occasionally and they were very tightly constrained

02:30:13   I mean there was like a it was a very narrow range of

02:30:15   50 words like you need you know

02:30:20   It was it was hard and like I still I admire like the New York Times op-ed

02:30:25   Columnists like Paul Krugman who they there they have to write a column

02:30:28   That's almost the exact same length like twice a week every week

02:30:31   I know I don't have that muscle anymore at all like if I want people talk about of course

02:30:36   It's much harder to write, you know succinctly than it is to blather on but and I think that that's absolutely true

02:30:42   I did set it up more to like it was more to try to

02:30:47   force myself to write in the post sort of reporter days right to force myself to give myself an easy target right to write every

02:30:53   day and

02:30:54   It's just so much easier said than done because you're like, what do I cut?

02:30:58   I don't know what to cut here. And then do you write a second story about the thing that you cut and all that stuff?

02:31:04   Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, that's your website 500 words. I look forward to every one of your columns

02:31:09   I like it and then on Twitter people can follow you of course at MG Siegler

02:31:13   Yes, just just search for mg c-glare twitter. It'll take it right there

02:31:17   Thank you