The Talk Show

245: ‘40 Hours a Day of Murder’ With Rene Ritchie


00:00:00   I feel like you're on a roll.

00:00:01   - Oh, thank you.

00:00:02   - But you had a really good video the other day.

00:00:03   I don't have it in the notes yet, but I will.

00:00:07   On this analytics situation in the App Store.

00:00:14   We're just jumping right in, no small talk today.

00:00:17   - Yeah, absolutely.

00:00:18   - But this analytic situation in the App Store

00:00:21   and with these apps being discovered,

00:00:23   it's like everything with Facebook.

00:00:26   It's an unrolling scandal.

00:00:29   Like it's not like never ending.

00:00:31   Never ending, we learn one thing after another.

00:00:34   But basically the Wall Street Journal had a story last week

00:00:40   that really escalated this where they did some research

00:00:43   on a bunch of apps that take by nature of the app.

00:00:48   They take very personal information.

00:00:52   These are things like menstrual cycle,

00:00:55   calendar trackers for women.

00:00:57   What are some of the other examples?

00:01:02   - Real estate apps.

00:01:04   - Real estate apps.

00:01:05   - Houses you wanted to buy, yeah, there's a range of them.

00:01:07   - And yeah, so it's like financial information

00:01:11   and stuff like that.

00:01:12   And they got security experts and they, I guess,

00:01:16   hooked these things up to like something to look

00:01:19   at the network traffic coming in and out of the phones.

00:01:21   And these apps all, like as soon as you'd enter

00:01:24   this information, you put your weight in.

00:01:26   And as soon as you do it, it goes right to Facebook.

00:01:29   - Yeah.

00:01:30   And my favorite part is right after the article,

00:01:33   Will Straphek, you know, @Chronic on Twitter,

00:01:35   who's just absolutely fantastic on information security.

00:01:38   He got involved and started decompiling

00:01:40   a bunch of other ones and finding like,

00:01:41   some of them were sending Google how often you had sex,

00:01:44   whether it was protected or not,

00:01:45   whether you were trying to conceive or not.

00:01:47   - Right, which people are entering into these apps

00:01:49   voluntarily because they're doing it for purposes of,

00:01:53   know, like the period trackers, you know, whether it's it, you know, even if even women

00:01:59   who aren't trying to get pregnant might be tracking their period for for health related

00:02:02   purposes that was even wait, it didn't even roll out the second you put the information

00:02:06   and it was sent to Facebook or Google or flurry or a company like that. Yeah, it's really

00:02:11   strange. And you know, and there have been stories for a while about other other such

00:02:14   things where retailers have been tracking people in the real world. Yeah. And Target

00:02:21   can figure out or to name one example that if you buy a x, y, and z, there's an 85% chance that you

00:02:29   just found out you're pregnant. And some of it's obvious, duh. It's like prenatal vitamins or

00:02:35   something like that. But then, just other things, there's just weird connections where

00:02:40   skin lotion or something like that, but they can make these connections and then start

00:02:47   sending you if you're on their mailing list, start sending you spam, mailing you spam for baby stuff.

00:02:56   Just weird. And a lot of times the companies, they'll always say, "Oh, it's anonymized." But

00:03:01   unless you're doing sort of like what Apple does with unique tokens that expire immediately in

00:03:06   differential, unless you're going that extra mile, anonymizing data doesn't do anything. It has been

00:03:10   proven trivial for these companies to get even just one single data point to tie you into these

00:03:15   profiles or shadow profiles if you don't use their services and then they know exactly

00:03:20   who that data is coming from.

00:03:21   Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. Right. So yeah, the claims that this is anonymous, that

00:03:26   they're just sending, oh yeah, it's just a person who's telling us exactly, you know,

00:03:30   how much they weigh and what they've eaten today. You know, it doesn't hold much water

00:03:35   to say that it's anonymized because they can connect this in other ways.

00:03:39   Yeah, absolutely.

00:03:40   And so anyway, you had a video about this on your channel and I thought one of the really

00:03:45   interesting segments of it was you pulled up an old, well obviously old at this point,

00:03:50   but I think it was from 2011, Steve Jobs at the All Things D conference talking about

00:03:56   a scandal at the time that I had since forgotten, the Flurry Analytics thing. Can you describe

00:04:02   that?

00:04:03   Yeah, so what happened was this article came out saying that Apple was working on new iPhones,

00:04:07   of course, and on tablet devices. And it was based on developers using Flurry Analytics

00:04:13   and people inside Apple using those apps

00:04:15   and the information on the device is being reported.

00:04:18   But what's delightful on stage is like you get,

00:04:21   Jobs has asked about it.

00:04:22   And he just starts saying like, we learned about this

00:04:25   and we were pissed off.

00:04:27   You know, there was still, and he's just so angry

00:04:30   that Apple immediately changed the App Store regulations

00:04:32   to forbid these kinds of analytics.

00:04:35   And it was immediately, you know, it bothered him

00:04:37   because he's big about surprise and delight.

00:04:39   And it basically betrayed

00:04:40   what Apple's upcoming product roadmap was.

00:04:43   And it seems like that is not at all dissimilar

00:04:45   to what these apps, they're not doing it

00:04:47   for devices anymore, but they're doing it for the customers.

00:04:49   - And there was, yeah, and there, it was like,

00:04:52   so we, you know, all this, this company came out,

00:04:54   they had, they had, they used the analytics to figure out

00:04:57   there was like a new iPad coming out, you know,

00:04:59   'cause they could tell from, you know,

00:05:00   the code running in the analytics, you know, framework,

00:05:04   you know, would probe the system and say,

00:05:05   oh yeah, this is iPhone or iPad model, you know,

00:05:08   comma one or whatever was a new iPad and you know he said we looked at these apps

00:05:13   and it turned out that they were all using this flurry analytics and we were

00:05:16   like what the hell is that yeah yeah he was mad yeah well and it's an

00:05:23   interesting kind of mad because he's aware that he's on stage and you know

00:05:27   who can even imagine how you know what his reaction was inside Apple when he

00:05:32   wasn't on camera wasn't on stage when he found out that this is what was going on

00:05:36   But it was an interesting anecdote, a really good pull.

00:05:41   I had forgotten about it and I feel like it really,

00:05:44   you know, I don't know, it really hit me in the video

00:05:49   because it really shows how this has been going on

00:05:53   for a while, that Apple sort of has a blind spot to it

00:05:57   because they don't collect it, right?

00:05:58   Like, and I feel like that what Jobs is saying, you know,

00:06:02   maybe they shouldn't have been surprised that--

00:06:04   - Well, he says that they're naive.

00:06:05   That was the exact word to use. Yeah. So there you go, you know, right out of the horse's

00:06:09   mouth. I mean, no, no, no bones about it, right? Yeah, I feel like that. As much as

00:06:18   you would like to think, well, they're Apple, you know, woke up, and they got their handle

00:06:22   on it. But it's for everything we've seen in the last few years, especially the last

00:06:27   couple of months with these stories from TechCrunch and now the Wall Street Journal, that it's,

00:06:31   I don't know if you want to ever want to say Apple is still naive about this stuff, but

00:06:35   it's clearly spiraled out of their control in some ways.

00:06:40   Yeah. And what's hard too is that there are a lot of edge cases. For example, there was

00:06:43   a brouhaha about apps uploading your contact information, which is sometimes good, sometimes

00:06:48   bad because there are apps like you want to be able to download a third party address

00:06:52   book app if you know one of our really creative friends were to make one that's way better

00:06:56   than the system app. And you'd have to grant it access to the universal contacts database

00:07:00   for it to do anything important to you.

00:07:02   The same way like if you use Tweetbot,

00:07:04   you have to give it access to your Twitter profile.

00:07:06   But then there are other apps

00:07:08   that wanna spam your Twitter followers

00:07:09   or other apps that wanna just steal all your contacts.

00:07:12   And once you grant permission,

00:07:14   there has to be some way for Apple to then follow up

00:07:16   and hold them accountable

00:07:17   for what they do with that information.

00:07:20   - Did you see, I put it in the show notes

00:07:22   that our friends at Objective Development,

00:07:25   that they're the makers of a bunch of great Mac utilities

00:07:29   like Launch Bar and they have a long standing utility called Little Snitch, which is a utility

00:07:36   you install, then basically monitors every app you're running and notifies you when they

00:07:43   make a network connection. And yes, you can say, Okay, well, this is, you know, obviously,

00:07:48   I want you to allow my email client to connect to the server to get my email and send email

00:07:53   and you can say it don't, you know, I don't want to be noted, you know, you can dial down

00:07:58   the filters so that you're not getting pinged about everything because there's all sorts

00:08:01   of stuff on your Mac that you know is making network connections, but it's a way to bring

00:08:05   your attention to bits of network networking that you perhaps weren't aware of.

00:08:14   Yes.

00:08:15   And they have something, I hadn't seen this, but they tweeted this at me, something called

00:08:20   the Internet Access Policy.

00:08:24   And there...

00:08:25   It looks great.

00:08:26   pitching it as like the equivalent of a privacy policy.

00:08:29   Yeah, here's in their own words, while the latter describes in

00:08:34   clear text, which personal data is processed, stored and passed

00:08:37   on the internet access policy describes in machine readable

00:08:41   form, which internet connections a program creates and for what

00:08:46   purpose? Yeah, it sounds great. Super plain language. I really,

00:08:51   really would like to see more developers get behind this. I'd

00:08:54   like to see Apple get behind something like this?

00:08:56   I would… So I would like… On the first level, I would love for there just to be laws.

00:09:00   Like, there should really be laws protecting us. Data theft should be treated no differently

00:09:03   than any other kind of theft. And if any… Like I said in the video, if any startup CEO

00:09:07   or developer even thinks about stealing this kind of information, they should wake up in

00:09:11   a cold sweat screaming, apologizing, and pulling out the code because they'll do real jail

00:09:16   time. But, you know, that kind of stuff takes a long time. So in the meantime, if Will can

00:09:20   find this stuff Apple should implement higher will or implement somebody to do this kind

00:09:25   of stuff internally. And they should require right on that page where it says, you know,

00:09:28   the compatibility for your app, that the age restrictions for your app should have this

00:09:32   is the personal data that we collect. And this is who we share it with. And if developers

00:09:36   think that's going to stop you from downloading, then they should reevaluate their business

00:09:39   model because they shouldn't put anything on there that they're not proud of. There

00:09:42   was something I should correct an episode or two ago, one of these ongoing scandals

00:09:47   was about the framework, at least one, I don't know, I think it was a TechCrunch story, but

00:09:52   basically that there's popular frameworks that apps use that record your screen activity,

00:09:59   ostensibly for the purposes of like AB testing and, you know, there's certainly good uses

00:10:04   for that sort of thing, like if you want to track what, see how people who first download

00:10:12   your app go through the initial first run and what they tap on where they stop if if

00:10:17   33% of the people stop at a certain point and never really come back to the app that's

00:10:23   good to know maybe want to revisit that the problem is that they're doing this these apps

00:10:27   are doing this without any kind of permission yeah they're just they're just collecting

00:10:33   the data and sending it I misspoke on the show and said that it I was under the impression

00:10:38   that it was just sending like sort of data, you know, the tap on this position, this button

00:10:46   was pressed, the screen was open for 20 seconds, that it wasn't like a movie, but I've been

00:10:51   told no.

00:10:52   Yeah, it is a movie.

00:10:54   That they're just that that what gets sent back to the developer, could you just hit

00:10:58   the play button and they can just watch you as though they were recording your screen,

00:11:03   you know, as though as though you were taking a movie, you know, they can see everything

00:11:06   you did in there.

00:11:07   And I asked about this if you agree to it fine and and and what you were agreeing to

00:11:13   It was told you in very plain language not some kind of inscrutable

00:11:18   8-point type

00:11:21   5,000 word thing that you know, everybody is going to skip past

00:11:25   Yeah, and I asked about this too because almost all the apps that were caught doing this were like banking apps or big

00:11:32   hospitality companies and it seemed weird because they every time you'd use those apps is making a server call and they know what you're hitting

00:11:39   And when you're hitting it, but was explained to me that they're just too

00:11:42   I don't know if lazy is the right word

00:11:43   But they they were looking for an easy way to package that and there are people that offered

00:11:47   Easy way so instead of them having to pull their server logs and like get hire someone to parse it for them and make it

00:11:52   Usable they just threw in these frameworks that were that we're making it easy for them

00:11:56   And it was good to see a bunch of developers say, you know

00:11:59   I would we would never use these our job doesn't need to be easy

00:12:02   It needs to be done with respect for our customers and we can do this without using those sketchy frameworks

00:12:06   It's just ridiculous how it just goes on and on and on

00:12:11   I

00:12:13   Really do Facebook Facebook just said that they don't think they don't allow their developers to take anything without your permission

00:12:18   Google refused to comment and just point at people at the policy

00:12:28   it you know

00:12:30   it's

00:12:32   it's just such a pervasive and I

00:12:35   actually misused the word in a post on daring fireball a couple days ago and then decided that

00:12:41   I wanted to use pervasive but I used perverted and then I kept it when I edited it and made it pervasive and perverted it

00:12:48   Really is a perverted. Yeah attitude on

00:12:51   Privacy like I and I really

00:12:56   Feel like I'm I've been naive about this to a certain extent like I've kind of known that it's going on

00:13:02   But the more that comes out the more I'm I find myself I think of myself as cynical and I don't really trust

00:13:09   the

00:13:12   I've long-standing opposition to a lot of the ad tech

00:13:16   Industry this whole idea of tech tracking and and personalizing advertising

00:13:25   and even being a cynic on this front and being involved and supporting myself through advertising and and

00:13:32   in a very purposeful way avoiding

00:13:36   the privacy, you know, my whole career has been based on trying to

00:13:42   Do ad supported publishing and podcasting in a way that is a hundred percent respectful of reader and listener

00:13:50   privacy. Even as a cynic, I find myself almost staggered by the depths of it and the this sort

00:13:57   of default mentality, both from Facebook and Google, maybe lump Amazon in with them too, as

00:14:04   the gorilla, Titanic companies that are collecting these dossiers on people to all of the the little

00:14:13   fish, just the individual apps from, you know, 50. I mean, how many banks have apps in the

00:14:21   App Store? Hundreds, I'm sure. Probably thousands from, you know, around the world. How many

00:14:25   of those apps are sending weird shit to the banks about what people are doing in the apps?

00:14:32   Like, yeah, why?

00:14:33   And one of the worst parts is, you know, Google has a business like Facebook and data harvesting

00:14:40   and a business like Apple and running an app marketplace.

00:14:43   And it's very hard to imagine Google

00:14:45   doing what's best for customers and what's

00:14:47   best for Google at the same time.

00:14:49   They're almost divided against themselves.

00:14:51   And when Will was looking at the apps for Google,

00:14:53   it was way harder to try to figure out

00:14:55   what they were doing than the apps from iOS.

00:14:57   You know, when Brent and Dave Whiskas and I

00:15:02   were making Vesper a notes app, and we

00:15:05   were going to do our own sync, we were very cognizant

00:15:08   that we have no idea what people are putting in their notes. We don't want to know. We

00:15:11   want to set this up in a way where we can't know. There was no view that we had where

00:15:17   we could look at the notes, the notes restored, encrypted on the server. But it's just a

00:15:25   silly little notes app that we were selling for four bucks, but we figured who knows?

00:15:29   People could write anything and everything in a notes app.

00:15:30   So the most important thing in their lives could be that note.

00:15:33   we take it, you know, let's, let's, let's be very deliberate every step of the way.

00:15:37   I can't help but think like, if you were working on a team that was making a period tracker for

00:15:45   women, you have to recognize instantly that this is super private information. This is super personal,

00:15:51   you know, hard to get more personal than a woman's health. Yeah. You would just think every step of

00:16:01   the way let's not screw up like that's what we were thinking with Vesper is how you know let's

00:16:06   let's follow you know all the best practices we can let's be cautious I mean and I say we be Brent

00:16:12   really was the one who designed and built the sync service but we were all on board with okay Brent

00:16:16   take your time and you know do this in a very cautious deliberately err on the side of you know

00:16:23   let's make sure this is as solid as possible that's just thinking about mistakes bugs like oh my god

00:16:29   we screwed up and we expose personal information through blank accidentally were horrified.

00:16:35   Let's do you know, let's fix it. Let's tell everybody. Let's know, you know, let's get

00:16:39   in front of this, whatever. That's the mentality you would just like to think that everybody

00:16:45   has. But on the other hand, here's these companies that it's not mistakes, it's purposeful. It's

00:16:49   let's include this Facebook analytic package in that's going to instantly send all of this

00:16:54   data to Facebook, like the mentality behind that doing that, clearly on purpose, right?

00:16:59   You don't accidentally include a Facebook analytics framework in your app and have it

00:17:04   wired up to, you know, the data. It's, I really feel like it is hard to overstate the, the

00:17:16   outrage that we collectively should have. And like you said, that our lawmakers across

00:17:22   the globe should have about getting on top of this.

00:17:27   And frankly, again, it's hard to expect Google to do anything because they're conflicted

00:17:31   on this, but Apple, if you talk to the Face ID team, for example, it wasn't like, "Let's

00:17:36   make Face ID and then we'll figure out how to make it private."

00:17:38   It's like you are not allowed to make Face ID unless every step along the way has been

00:17:43   carefully considered for preserving privacy.

00:17:45   And that's not just Face ID, that's everything that they build.

00:17:48   And the same thing needs to be applied to the App Store, especially because, again,

00:17:52   I don't think Google's going to do it.

00:17:54   And if Apple's making this their top-down, front-facing, most important feature, then

00:17:59   they've got to do that throughout their stack.

00:18:02   It's the way everything is monetized, too.

00:18:05   The way that these apps are all free and it's...

00:18:09   And I know there's...

00:18:10   Free is in your data.

00:18:11   Yeah.

00:18:12   The Tim Cook line that he loves a lot, which is,

00:18:15   if you're not the paying customer, you're the,

00:18:19   what's that, I'm? (laughs)

00:18:21   - You're the product, yeah. - You're the product, right.

00:18:24   And there's truth to that.

00:18:25   And I realize it doesn't apply in every way.

00:18:28   But there is a problem with expecting all this stuff

00:18:31   to be free, and that they're selling,

00:18:33   you're exchanging your privacy instead of your money

00:18:36   for these products and services.

00:18:38   And I think that people are starting to catch on to this.

00:18:42   And I really feel like the industry has spent,

00:18:46   it's not just like an app era thing,

00:18:48   it's really an internet era thing.

00:18:50   It goes to the whole use of the web

00:18:55   and how many websites have been free

00:18:56   and the tracking goes back to the origins

00:18:59   of ads on the internet.

00:19:03   And famously, you know, people don't like to pay for digital stuff, right? People, you know,

00:19:10   famously, you know, they'll spend $1,100 on a phone and then balk at spending $2 on a game

00:19:19   for the phone. But I feel like people are starting to wake up to the fact that this stuff isn't

00:19:26   really free, that there's something being lost in the exchange here, and that the, the,

00:19:32   the extraordinary just lack of respect that these companies have for customer privacy

00:19:40   is really starting to burst out of the "oh that's just inside baseball" and break into

00:19:49   the mainstream conversation about how we live our lives in this ever more digital world.

00:19:54   Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. And again, humans just psychologically,

00:20:00   evolutionarily speaking, we are tuned to think about the present and not the future. And

00:20:04   almost all the time we will mortgage our future for the present. And these are so good at doing

00:20:09   that because you think, oh, it's free. You don't see data the way you see time, the way you see

00:20:13   money. You don't feel it leaving your wallet. And everybody is data rich. It's a great equalizer.

00:20:18   Different people have different kinds of money, different amounts of time, different amounts of

00:20:21   money. But we all have invaluable data for these companies and they will happily take as much as

00:20:28   we will give in exchange for what we think are free products but are really front ends

00:20:32   for data harvesting services.

00:20:33   You know, I use this analogy all the time that we wouldn't tolerate in the real world

00:20:39   what we tolerate online, you know, like where you go shopping for a pair of boots in a store

00:20:47   and then all of a sudden every tab in your browser has ads for brown boots. We wouldn't

00:20:54   tolerate it in the real world. If you went into a shoe store in the real world and looked

00:20:59   at a pair of boots, can thought about them and thought, you know what? I'm not going

00:21:01   to buy these and you walk down the street. If somebody from the store followed you or

00:21:05   somebody from a boot company followed you and started asking you, you know, Hey, how

00:21:10   about these boots? How about that? How about we go into Macy's and, you know, look for

00:21:14   boots. Macy's has a sale on boots. You'd be so creeped out. It would, you know, you'd

00:21:21   be, you know, you'd object, you know, you would be like, you wouldn't just tolerate

00:21:27   it, right? You'd freak out in a way. And yet that's how everything happens online.

00:21:33   Yeah. If any of this stuff was made manifest, I think we talked about this last time. If

00:21:37   you were forced to see all your nudie pics and all your personal health data go into

00:21:42   a literal representation of these servers, you'd be aghast, but it's all invisible to

00:21:46   you. There's no real, there's no perceived cost.

00:21:48   - Yeah, it's really, I don't know.

00:21:51   Where do you think this is going with Facebook?

00:21:55   And on the app store?

00:21:56   I think you agree with me,

00:21:58   but I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

00:22:01   I feel like, okay, Apple actually is on the right in this,

00:22:06   that they really do,

00:22:09   they really do want to protect customers' privacy,

00:22:15   and they really don't wanna collect this stuff themselves.

00:22:18   But I think at least even though they're not doing it

00:22:22   and they're not condoning it,

00:22:24   it's happening in apps that are going through their store.

00:22:28   And so I do feel like they bear

00:22:30   a certain responsibility for this and for addressing it.

00:22:35   - Yeah, absolutely.

00:22:37   Again, I think it's a triple phase approach.

00:22:39   I think ultimately there has to be regulation.

00:22:41   Until there's regulation, it defaults down to the platforms,

00:22:44   Microsoft, Apple, and Google.

00:22:46   and again, pointing out that Google's conflicted on this.

00:22:49   What I would love Apple to do is to require

00:22:52   the privacy disclosure to be on the product page

00:22:54   and then to do exactly what Will does

00:22:56   and sniff the products to make sure

00:22:57   that what they're disclosing is the same

00:23:00   as what's on the page.

00:23:01   And if it's not, they reject them.

00:23:03   And if it's malicious, they do what they've done

00:23:05   with other violators, and that is delete

00:23:07   their developer accounts.

00:23:08   And that will create an environment

00:23:10   where this sort of behavior,

00:23:11   like this sort of behavior, we become normalized to it.

00:23:13   Like it just seems like it's what everybody does.

00:23:15   is desensitizing because there's a new scandal every day.

00:23:19   And the only way to stop that is to start doing things

00:23:21   that are severe, things that force you to wake up

00:23:23   and pay attention.

00:23:25   And I feel like if Apple,

00:23:26   Apple's the only one in any position to do this

00:23:28   because I'm not really sure what the state

00:23:30   of the Windows market is right now.

00:23:32   And Google probably will never do this,

00:23:34   at least not if Apple doesn't do it first.

00:23:36   But they're in a real position to set the same standard

00:23:38   for these apps that they're setting

00:23:39   for themselves internally.

00:23:41   And then things like what you pointed out

00:23:43   with the little Snitch company to help developers

00:23:45   who are doing this get the recognition that they deserve

00:23:48   and to get our confidence as customers.

00:23:50   And until those things happen,

00:23:52   companies are gonna keep doing this because it's easy.

00:23:54   They get bribed and extorted by the Googles

00:23:58   and the Facebooks to include this stuff

00:24:00   and they get benefits from doing it.

00:24:02   It feeds both their laziness and their finances,

00:24:06   so they're gonna keep doing it until someone stops them.

00:24:09   - Yeah, but I really do feel like Apple has to,

00:24:12   and they need to act quicker than legislation

00:24:15   is going to happen.

00:24:16   They can't just stand behind and say,

00:24:17   well, this stuff is legal.

00:24:19   I'm not quite sure what that is,

00:24:23   but I think you're right though,

00:24:23   that part of it would be having,

00:24:26   taking like what Straphec does

00:24:29   and make it part of the review process.

00:24:34   It's probably not simple enough.

00:24:37   I mean, with some of this stuff like the screen recording,

00:24:40   once the story broke. Because there's a known list of these analytics frameworks that supply

00:24:49   it, they could automate the process of looking through all the thousands and thousands of

00:24:56   apps in the App Store and finding apps that have these frameworks. And a lot of these

00:25:02   apps got like, the developers got like, "Hey, you've got three days to remove X, Y, and

00:25:07   Z from your app or it's going to be taken out of the App Store. So, you know, they obviously

00:25:13   have that capability. It's kind of cool that they could do that, but it's not enough.

00:25:19   They don't want to get into a situation of whack-a-mole where, okay, now we know we have

00:25:23   to change the name of the framework and hide it from the App Store review team. They don't

00:25:31   want to go down that path. I think the thing that they can monitor is actually looking

00:25:35   at the network calls that are going out of the app

00:25:38   and where they're going.

00:25:39   There's no way to hide that.

00:25:40   I mean, they can't necessarily see within them

00:25:42   'cause hopefully all those calls are using SSL

00:25:45   so they're encrypted, but they can at least see

00:25:47   which servers are being notified.

00:25:49   - Yeah, which is what Will did.

00:25:50   He pulled out like the Google Analytics data.

00:25:52   There was that case of Uber saying,

00:25:54   "Don't do this if you're in the vicinity of Cupertino,"

00:25:56   but they still got caught.

00:25:57   And to me, that would be the malicious part

00:25:59   that just gets your account deleted.

00:26:01   (laughing)

00:26:03   I mean, obviously the rules are different when you're Uber.

00:26:05   And this drives some people crazy because they feel like Facebook and Google and Uber

00:26:09   get special treatment.

00:26:10   And they do the same way.

00:26:11   Like America will respond to China differently than it will respond to some very small country.

00:26:19   And a lot of people use and depend on these services.

00:26:22   And in essence, you have the web.

00:26:23   So like if you ever wanted to get rid of the Facebook app, people could still log into

00:26:26   Facebook on Safari.

00:26:28   So I think it has to go beyond just looking at it from the punitive sense.

00:26:32   It has to be really fixing this problem.

00:26:34   - Problem. - Yeah.

00:26:35   Well, it's an ongoing saga.

00:26:39   All right, let me take a break

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00:28:51   great stuff. All right, here's something I've been thinking about. So, um, and I don't think

00:28:57   I've talked about it on the show. And if I have, I've blacked out and forgotten it. There

00:29:03   is an apple privacy related the elephant in the room. And it ties into Apple's services

00:29:14   narrative and that look at our services revenue is growing, growing, growing. And, and the

00:29:22   basic gist is hey, of these big five companies,

00:29:26   especially Google and Facebook, maybe lump Amazon in,

00:29:31   these guys are doing sketchy stuff with your privacy.

00:29:33   We're not, we're Apple, we're not doing it.

00:29:36   The elephant in the room is the money

00:29:38   that Apple gets from Google

00:29:41   for making Google search the default in Safari

00:29:45   across the Mac and let's face it, in particular, iOS.

00:29:50   Um, it's, uh, I think it's Goldman Sachs who did some work on this and estimated it at

00:29:58   like 8 billion for 2018. Um, and I think that they estimate that it might go up to like

00:30:05   12 billion for 2019. Um, that's a lot of money and it's a fairly high, it's a lot of money

00:30:13   period, right? We're talking $12 billion. That's, I mean, that's by anybody's standards,

00:30:17   and Apple and Google, that's a lot of money.

00:30:19   It's also a big chunk of Apple's services revenue.

00:30:25   Like a big chunk of Apple's services revenue is,

00:30:28   and I'm not gonna say they don't have to do anything,

00:30:33   but effectively, yeah, just keeping Google

00:30:35   as the default search engine in Safari.

00:30:38   So all of this stuff with Apple Music and with iCloud

00:30:43   and with their upcoming video service,

00:30:46   with their supposedly upcoming subscription news service

00:30:50   and anything else that would be filed under the,

00:30:54   look at all these new initiatives we have

00:30:56   to increase services revenue.

00:30:57   A big chunk of the money just comes from making Google

00:30:59   the default search engine.

00:31:02   And the privacy angle on this is,

00:31:05   how can we say that Google has problems,

00:31:09   you know, is a problematic company

00:31:10   in terms of respecting people's privacy

00:31:14   while Apple is pocketing $10 billion a year.

00:31:19   Like where do they think that money is coming from?

00:31:21   - Yeah, yeah, no, I did a video on this too,

00:31:26   but there was a whole bunch of things

00:31:27   that people say that, you know,

00:31:29   like there's the China situation

00:31:30   and there's just several of these.

00:31:32   And the one that you cannot justify is Google.

00:31:36   Now I've used DuckDuckGo because of the issues

00:31:39   I have with Google and it's simply not as good.

00:31:41   And that's Apple's overall point

00:31:42   is that Google is the best search engine.

00:31:45   But once, you know, if Apple just chose it

00:31:46   and wasn't getting paid for it,

00:31:47   that's an easy position to defend.

00:31:49   Google is the best search engine still.

00:31:51   We understand there's problems with it,

00:31:52   but we believe it's the best for our customers.

00:31:54   So we're using it, there's no money changing hands.

00:31:57   The minute the money changes hands,

00:31:58   then it's impossible to say

00:32:00   whether it's the best or not anymore.

00:32:02   If I had my druthers, there would be a box that pops up

00:32:05   because you can change it.

00:32:07   It's not like it's the only search engine.

00:32:08   You can go into Safari settings and choose DuckDuckGo

00:32:11   or Yahoo or Microsoft.

00:32:12   I don't know why they're still in there, but you can.

00:32:15   But if I had my draw, there's the first time,

00:32:17   the first run experience for Safari would pop up,

00:32:20   which search engine do you wanna use?

00:32:21   And if people tap on Google because they prefer the results

00:32:24   and they understand what comes with them, that's great.

00:32:28   If they have concerns, they can tap DuckDuckGo,

00:32:30   and that's great too.

00:32:31   And maybe people who work at Microsoft could tap on Bing,

00:32:34   but whatever, you'd have a conscious user decision to do it.

00:32:38   And Google could even pay them a bounty

00:32:40   for every person who taps on Google

00:32:41   if they really wanted to.

00:32:42   But to me, that sort of,

00:32:44   once you make privacy your distinguishing feature,

00:32:46   you've set the bar much higher.

00:32:48   Because I think Firefox famously gets almost all their money

00:32:51   from Google as well, which is super ironic,

00:32:53   giving Firefox the statements.

00:32:54   And Apple previously would say,

00:32:56   "Yeah, we use Google as a default,

00:32:57   "but we do everything we can to deny them information

00:32:59   "with do not track and with providing garbage input

00:33:02   "into the machine tracking,

00:33:04   "and by killing all the social plugins

00:33:06   "and killing the ads."

00:33:07   And that might be true.

00:33:09   still taking all the money. And they do some stuff that I would think Google would prefer

00:33:18   they didn't like when you in you're in Safari and you start typing in the magic, you know,

00:33:25   search or URL field. They have sometimes depending on what what you type suggested results that

00:33:34   aren't from your search engine provider, you know, that Apple

00:33:37   is somehow guessing what it is, you know, it's like the top

00:33:40   items, sometimes, you know, Siri, I guess they call them

00:33:44   Siri suggestions, right. But for the most part, you know, a lot

00:33:51   of the stuff that goes through that field goes through Google.

00:33:55   Yeah. And it's, you know, it must be if there's so many

00:33:59   negotiations that I would love to be a fly on the wall for it.

00:34:01   That is one that must be fascinating to me because Apple's obviously, I mean, if we take

00:34:08   Goldman Sachs' numbers, and I think I would probably wager that if they're not spot on,

00:34:14   they're close enough, you know, that it was somewhere between 8 to 12 billion 2018 and

00:34:19   now 2019.

00:34:21   They're obviously getting a lot of money from Google.

00:34:24   But on the other hand, Google is coming at this from a very strong position of strength

00:34:28   in terms of what are you going to do?

00:34:30   Are you really going to make being the default search engine?

00:34:33   Right?

00:34:34   Are you really going to make DuckDuckGo the default search engine?

00:34:37   Come on.

00:34:38   So there it would be worth a lot more.

00:34:42   I think about this.

00:34:43   If it's worth roughly 10 billion a year now, imagine what it would be worth in a world

00:34:49   where there were two or three search engines that were arguably of equal quality competitive.

00:34:58   What if Bing results really were indistinguishable from Google search results?

00:35:05   I suspect, I don't know, but and I suppose that they could prepare for this in advance.

00:35:11   It wouldn't be sprung on them at the last moment.

00:35:14   But I would wager heavily that Apple couldn't make like flip a switch tomorrow and make

00:35:20   DuckDuckGo the default search engine that DuckDuckGo wouldn't be able to handle that

00:35:24   sudden increase in traffic.

00:35:27   And you can't really do that. This is part of Google's strength in negotiating too, is

00:35:33   with so many hundreds of millions of iOS users. I mean, what does Apple estimate as the user

00:35:41   base? Is it up to a billion yet? I think it's a billion devices, maybe not a billion people,

00:35:48   but it's hundreds of millions of people clearly. In some way, I'm not going to say can't. Can't

00:35:53   is obviously they could, but it would be very difficult to change the default on people

00:36:00   just when they upgrade the OS, right? When you upgrade to iOS, I guess it'll be 14 this

00:36:08   year or is it 13?

00:36:09   I even did it intentionally. I switched to DuckDuckDoh and the first time I used it,

00:36:15   I didn't recognize the search page results. It's just been very confusing.

00:36:21   And there's an awful lot of people and it's really gets to the, you know, people aren't

00:36:27   supposed to be technical experts. That's the whole, you know, Apple way of, of, you know,

00:36:33   that's been Apple's motto from the get go. But Google's role, Google searches role on

00:36:41   the internet is if you know how the web works and you, you know, you know how to build a

00:36:48   website and you basically know you don't have to be able to write a search engine but if

00:36:53   you basically know it's just a simple form you type words you hit the button and then

00:36:59   it goes to the server and the server takes that query and makes its best guess as to

00:37:05   what it is you're looking for. You know you realize there is no anybody could make a search

00:37:10   engine there are dozens and dozens of search engines before Google really grew to prominence

00:37:15   there, you know, there was no dominant search engine. There were a handful. I was always

00:37:20   an Alta Vista man. Alta Vista was my go to. Yeah. You know, but but most people don't

00:37:33   don't realize that like they see Google as the internet, right? You know, there's the

00:37:38   famous stories about that the way people would get to Facebook is they go to Google and type

00:37:44   Facebook login and hit go. The Google search field is effectively like a command line interface

00:37:54   to the internet. And unlike the old command lines of Unix terminal and DOS where everything

00:38:03   is super fragile and you can make terrible mistakes or you have to type the name of the

00:38:08   precise, you know, make one character mistake. You know, it's wonderfully user friendly in

00:38:14   that you can make all sorts of spelling mistakes and not even use spaces and somehow it figures

00:38:20   out what you want anyway. And it just works. And they're at the top of your results is

00:38:25   exactly what you're looking for. It I think even if people understood, if you could somehow

00:38:33   sit everybody down across the world and give them a 15-minute lecture on what is a search

00:38:39   engine and how do you change your default search engine and make them understand this.

00:38:45   People would still be angry if the default was switched just by upgrading to iOS 13 or

00:38:50   whatever, let alone the fact that they wouldn't understand. They would be like, "What the

00:38:55   hell is this?" All right? So it's a tough position. I don't know that Apple… Again,

00:39:02   I'm not again not gonna say can't but it would be very difficult for them to

00:39:06   Not have Google as their default search engine in Safari even if they wanted to

00:39:10   But nobody's forcing them to pocket money from it

00:39:15   Yeah, I mean we say that it's 12 billion dollars and they offered me 12 billion dollars to use Google right? It's certainly

00:39:21   Well, and it reminds me of an argument that I often have with people about sports where people will argue sports fans will will argue

00:39:30   That such-and-such player, you know, it's gonna sign a 30 million dollar a year contract and they say well nobody deserves

00:39:36   No, that's too much money. These plate these players are greedy. Why in the world, you know, do you need that much money?

00:39:41   Well if the players weren't making the money that they're making

00:39:45   It's not like they're gonna lower

00:39:49   The ticket prices in the stadiums and arenas and it's not like they're gonna lower the price of the commercials. They're selling

00:39:57   During the telecasts which let's face is where most of the money in pro sports comes from

00:40:01   They're not going to lower the price of those ads that they see

00:40:05   courtside or ring, you know along the along the ring rink of the the

00:40:10   You know the hockey arena

00:40:13   All of that stuff

00:40:15   It's just gonna stay with the owners of the teams

00:40:17   Right if they're not the less they pay the players the more it's gonna stay with the owners of the teams and is that really?

00:40:22   What you want as a sports fan?

00:40:23   You know the rise in sports salaries going to players is actually a good thing, you know historically 40 50 years ago

00:40:31   It's almost criminal how underpaid players were in professional sports at least in the United States

00:40:35   You know that owners of bait the baseball teams collectively conspired

00:40:40   To under pay their players and and not allow them free agency

00:40:45   I mean all of this stuff is actually relatively new to pro sports

00:40:49   anyway along those same lines if

00:40:52   Apple weren't taking ten billion dollars a year from Google for

00:40:56   Google's being the default search engine and just did it for free to keep their hands clean that money would be in Google's pockets

00:41:03   so

00:41:05   You know, it's a tax or taxing

00:41:07   But I really feel like this is something that gook

00:41:12   It's getting untenable for Apple to keep taking this pro privacy stance without addressing this publicly

00:41:19   Yeah, it will it will always be used against them until it's addressed I

00:41:22   Really do wonder I know I

00:41:26   Get you duck duck go I didn't write about it, but I actually visited them recently because

00:41:33   The one cool thing that's happened recently is that

00:41:38   duck duck go and Apple have partnered on

00:41:41   Maps and yeah duck duck go now uses Apple Maps as its

00:41:48   it's mapping data. So it shows you Apple Maps when you search for a location all around

00:41:56   the world. And it's way, it's a huge upgrade for DuckDuckGo. They were using like open

00:42:04   something maps beforehand because DuckDuckGo has, they're not just more private than Google

00:42:11   or Bing or something like that. Like privacy is actually fundamental to DuckDuckGo's mission.

00:42:17   actually a higher priority for them than search, you know, result accuracy. So they, they, they

00:42:24   don't show or distribute any third party code. Like when you visit DuckDuckGo, there are no none

00:42:33   of the ads that they do have come from third parties, and inject any kind of JavaScript or

00:42:38   something like that, from a from any server other than theirs. That's a problem. They had to work

00:42:45   with Apple to get this map thing to work as the maps obviously aren't just static images,

00:42:49   there is a lot of code involved. But effectively, it all gets proxied through DuckDuckGo servers.

00:42:59   So you go to DuckDuckGo as a user in Safari, and you type your query, and the query goes to DuckDuckGo.

00:43:05   And if it's a location related query, or the results involve location stuff, DuckDuckGo on

00:43:12   their server talks to maps.apple.com and gets everything it needs and it goes to DuckDuckGo

00:43:18   and then DuckDuckGo delivers it to you. So maps.apple.com never sees your IP address,

00:43:24   never talks to you directly. And you don't have to know this. Nobody, no regular person just using

00:43:31   DuckDuckGo would know this. But that's how seriously they take your privacy. It's a really

00:43:36   cool thing. And it really is the sort of thing that gives DuckDuckGo, they're too small of

00:43:45   a company, I forget how many employees they have, it's somewhere like around 60 around

00:43:49   the world. That's the total size of the company. They, but effectively now they have a multi

00:43:58   billion dollar partner, helping them with maps, which is truly fascinating. And Apple

00:44:06   is motivated to make its maps better. This is an area where clearly they are at best

00:44:13   in second place to Google. They have terrific motivation in various ways to make their maps

00:44:23   better and not just, you know, let's spend a year or two making our maps better and then forget it.

00:44:30   This is something that the company obviously has to be committed to on an ongoing basis

00:44:34   in perpetuity from now until the end of maps being the useful thing, right? And DuckDuckGo,

00:44:41   as Apple Maps continues to improve and as directions and whatever else you get from Apple

00:44:46   maps, the data on the maps, the base of interesting locations, where stores are. One of Apple's

00:44:58   recent initiatives is where are all the stores and retailers inside airport terminals? As

00:45:05   that stuff improves, DuckDuckGo just gets it all for free, effectively. I thought that's

00:45:12   pretty interesting.

00:45:13   There's a bunch of people who just every time we talk about this say Apple should buy

00:45:16   DuckDuckDuck, make it the default search engine and invest heavily in it.

00:45:20   This is where you've read my mind, this is where I'm going is yes, that this comes

00:45:25   out and I've thought about that.

00:45:28   I have thought about that a lot.

00:45:30   I'm sure that people at Apple have thought about it but I don't think it's as simple.

00:45:41   I don't think it's a very simple decision.

00:45:43   I think there's a lot of very complex ramifications.

00:45:46   I think it's tempting to think of it simply

00:45:49   because surely Apple could write a check

00:45:54   that DuckDuckGo is big enough that DuckDuckGo would say yes.

00:46:00   Yes.

00:46:02   I really doubt it would even be

00:46:07   if Apple decided they wanted to go that route.

00:46:09   I don't even know that it would be a long negotiation.

00:46:11   I suppose it's possible that DuckDuckGo values its independence and maybe that number is

00:46:21   higher than it would be if they were looking to sell, which I know that they're not.

00:46:30   But surely Apple could, it wouldn't take too long for them to add enough zeros at the end.

00:46:34   Yes, I was just thinking the same thing.

00:46:36   I just saw the check getting longer.

00:46:39   write a check. And then you know, instead of like crossing out the first number and

00:46:43   making that one big, they just add add another zero at the end. And like, what about now?

00:46:50   So I don't think that part of it would be complicated. I think though, that it would

00:47:00   be comp, I think that there's a certain at a certain angle, I think Apple enjoys not

00:47:06   owning a search engine, you know, and, and think about all the controversies that pop

00:47:10   up all the time where, I mean, a recent one is this vaccination stuff where anti vaccination

00:47:21   propaganda comes up in it at the top of these search results, either in search engines or

00:47:28   Facebook, I think was just busted for promoting, you know, you search on Facebook for vaccination

00:47:34   stuff and it's all anti vaccination stuff. And part of it is the fact that I just read

00:47:43   a story that the pro vaccination doctors and experts have sort of given up because they

00:47:48   were their stuff was getting buried anyway, and it's settled science anyway. So they really

00:47:53   isn't there shouldn't be there isn't really much new stuff to write about. Apple by it

00:47:59   by not having a search engine, they avoid that. I mean, and there's all you know, you

00:48:02   name it. We could spend an hour listing controversial topics and

00:48:07   yes, absolutely. And where they fall in search results. And by

00:48:11   not YouTube has gone through two weeks of utter chaos over the

00:48:15   very topic. Right lately. Right, right. YouTube. Yes, absolutely.

00:48:21   It's almost in disarray. Yeah. You know, both in terms of

00:48:26   algorithmic. Well, the algorithmic recommendations is at

00:48:31   the heart of it. But a big part of it too is the unmoderated comments and the subject

00:48:35   of the comments. And so on the one hand, I think Apple likes not owning a search engine.

00:48:47   I also think they like making $10 billion a year from Google. And it would be very,

00:48:57   You know, and this is where I see this as a sort of unspoken conflict of interest on

00:49:02   Apple's part on privacy is let's say they do buy DuckDuckGo, and they just rename it

00:49:08   Apple search. And they maintain all of these private, you know, make it as private as they

00:49:13   can. And let's even further stipulate that they improve the search results to the point

00:49:23   where it's on par with Google search results,

00:49:28   that people are as satisfied with it as in general

00:49:31   as they are with Google search.

00:49:33   I really doubt that Apple would be able to make

00:49:36   10 to $15 billion a year

00:49:40   without changing their privacy, right?

00:49:48   Like the whole reason Google make that it's so,

00:49:50   Google search is so valuable,

00:49:51   make so much money that Google's willing to spend $10 billion a year just to make it the

00:49:55   default in these in one browser. Apple would, let's face it would have to forgo a chunk

00:50:06   of that revenue. I mean, presumably they could have some kind of ads, but it wouldn't be

00:50:09   ad the ads wouldn't be as lucrative as Google's.

00:50:11   It's the developer ads from the App Store. But no, there's this anecdote about when Google

00:50:16   started and Larry and Sergey were adamant that it would have no ads because

00:50:21   when the minute you introduce ads it would fundamentally corrupt the very

00:50:25   nature of the search engine they wanted to be this very pure very scientific

00:50:29   very egalitarian very proper thing but then the dot-com bubble burst and their

00:50:33   VCs because a minute you take VCs you are no longer in charge of your destiny

00:50:38   their VCs said you have to monetize and so they turned on ads and ads are like

00:50:44   ultimate power that never really leads to corruption because you are no you are

00:50:47   no longer making a product to serve the customer you're now making a product to

00:50:50   serve the advertiser or the monetization engine and I don't you know Apple would

00:50:54   have to spend almost all that money as a giveaway just to provide a service for

00:51:00   users with very little upside to it and Apple is Apple is good at spending money

00:51:05   on accessibility they're good at spending money on several things that

00:51:07   they get no return from and Tim Cook is famously because angry Tim is my

00:51:11   favorite has famously stood up and said we don't give a damn about the ROI. But when

00:51:15   you start operating services at scale, which would be like iMessage on the web or for Android

00:51:20   or FaceTime on the web or for Android or a search engine, all of these things, and it

00:51:25   doesn't fit into Apple's existing business model, they would either have to do it at

00:51:28   a loss and there's only so many of those things they could do at a loss or they'd have to

00:51:31   start doing what big companies do to support that and that would make them just like Facebook

00:51:35   and Google.

00:51:36   DuckDuckGo does make money and they have ads, but they do it in a way that is completely

00:51:42   respectful of your privacy and doesn't track you.

00:51:48   I've spoken to them about it.

00:51:53   They didn't tell me exactly how much money they make and how much they make per search

00:51:57   or something like that because it's obviously confidential information, competitive.

00:52:04   be willing to bet though that they make less money per search than Google makes per search,

00:52:09   that it's less lucrative. So Apple could—

00:52:11   **Matt Stauffer:** Because Google, they're literally bidding—they've put people in

00:52:13   a situation to bid on those ads.

00:52:15   **Ezra Klein:** Right. That's a tough position for Apple to be in. And I think it's easier

00:52:21   for Apple to say, "We don't want to own our own search engine because that's not

00:52:24   our area of expertise and we don't want to be responsible for it," whatever. But

00:52:29   it's hard not to also think that they also enjoy their current relationship where their

00:52:35   hands are clean, but they still get now $12 billion a year from Google doing things that

00:52:42   they themselves are condemning privacy-wise.

00:52:44   And being pragmatically, this isn't new. A lot of people will just say, "Oh, Tim Cook

00:52:47   is greedy." This relationship has been going on. Even famously, when Steve Jobs was at

00:52:51   war with Google, it didn't change the default search engine in iOS. And at this point, like

00:52:57   Like you said, when you change it, not only does it affect every user, but if you suddenly

00:53:00   remove that income from Apple's services division, that's a whole different story

00:53:04   on Wall Street as well.

00:53:06   Yeah, yeah, that's exactly, you know, that they've, if anything, that's the other

00:53:11   thing that I feel a little uncomfortable looking at, you know, where's, where, you know,

00:53:17   the state of Apple today and where they're going.

00:53:22   not just that I care about privacy, it's that I see this as a conflict, you know, that there's

00:53:28   tension inside Apple where they're promoting this services narrative to Wall Street as this is the

00:53:34   area of growth, you know, yes, or, I mean, Apple hasn't admit Apple hasn't said categorically,

00:53:40   iPhone unit sales are never going to grow again. But, you know, the truth is, they probably aren't

00:53:48   They probably have we probably have seen peak iPhone in terms of unit sales

00:53:51   you know and pushing services but look we have significant growth and lots of headroom in this

00:54:00   services area but where this huge chunk of it comes from just making Google search the default

00:54:07   search engine really would make it hard for them to change that at all. And you start having all

00:54:12   these things like when you sold computers you had to deal with resellers and when you sold phones

00:54:16   You have to deal with carriers. And when you sold music and TV, you have to deal with the

00:54:19   entertainment industry. But now you have to deal with medical regulation to be into health. You

00:54:23   have to deal with the organizations that govern financial stuff. When you get into Apple pay and

00:54:28   Apple credit cards and all these other things, and you start adding all these services businesses,

00:54:32   you start having to deal with not only the regulatory bodies, but all the companies that

00:54:36   are entrenched in those sectors. And it is messy. And, you know, yeah. And it's fun to, to think

00:54:43   about in the what if Well, what else could Apple do? Right? And they do, like I said, they do some

00:54:47   things where they have these serious suggested results that don't go through Google. But let's

00:54:51   face it, one of the things Google is interested in is not just keeping track of your search results,

00:54:57   but having you logged in to Google so that when you go to Google search, your your Google profile

00:55:03   is already there. And you can switch to you know, you can go to other Google properties in your

00:55:07   there. That obvious, you know, when you're logged into Google, and I try to log out of

00:55:13   Google all the time, and I still often find myself like, Oh, I've been logged in for days,

00:55:17   like, you know, I don't know that it's nefarious on Google, you log into your Gmail, then all

00:55:22   of a sudden, you're automatically logged into maps into YouTube and a bunch of other apps

00:55:26   as well. And that's for me is often where it happens is I do, I will log in to use Gmail,

00:55:31   and it's just easier to do it in a regular tab than to make a private tab or I guess

00:55:37   what I've tried to do recently is I don't really use Chrome much for anything. And I've

00:55:42   kind of got my Safari content blocking setup down where I don't need to use Chrome because

00:55:49   stuff I've got a nice setup where I there are very few websites I find that break in

00:55:54   Safari because I've got content blockers or something and I have to go to Chrome or something

00:55:58   like that. So I tend to just use Chrome just for using Google stuff. But anyway, one thing

00:56:04   that Apple could obviously do would be to have some kind of okay, you know, we'll keep

00:56:09   Google as the default search engine, but we'll also add a default behavior that will just

00:56:14   erase cookies from Google every four hours. So you're, you know, unless you you know,

00:56:21   you can go into settings Safari search and, you know, toggle a simple checkmark to say,

00:56:28   well, I guess they're not checkmarks anymore. What do we call? What do we call checkmarks

00:56:33   on iOS. Those little…

00:56:34   I just, I still call them check marks. I don't know if there's… I'm sure we'll get

00:56:37   an email now that we…

00:56:38   On/off. I guess we should call them on/off switches.

00:56:41   Yeah.

00:56:42   Right. Well, they're not radio.

00:56:43   Toggles.

00:56:44   Yeah.

00:56:45   Toggles.

00:56:46   Toggles. Well, the thing that's effectively a check box. You could turn it on, but it's

00:56:49   going to be off by default and it will, you know, it'll just keep you logged out of

00:56:54   Google even after you log in after, I don't know, two hours or four hours or something

00:57:00   like that. I'm pretty sure if Apple did that, that would, A, that would probably, they'd

00:57:07   have to, that would have to be part of a new negotiation. I would be fairly certain that

00:57:12   Google is smart enough that they've, the letter of their contract with Google, with Apple,

00:57:17   for making Google the search engine, you know, as it exists right now, I'd be very surprised

00:57:24   if it doesn't preclude something like that.

00:57:26   The scarier thing is for Google to say fine. We don't need you to help us put right

00:57:30   It's funny because I try to use Google in Chrome too and because our company a mobile nations and I'm where they we use Google

00:57:39   accounts and I try not to stay logged in but I have to to use my work stuff and then it keeps saying you need

00:57:45   To sign into sync and I do I don't want to sign it to sync

00:57:48   So every time I refuse it takes me out of my mobile nations account and gives me this fake

00:57:53   cupcake Renee avatar that I don't know what it is and I can't get out of it until I

00:57:57   Close everything and relog back into my account and they just do all these little things to make your life more miserable when you're not logged

00:58:03   into them

00:58:05   All right, let me take a break here

00:58:08   I think our next sponsor longtime sponsor of the show one of my favorite companies on the internet fracture

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01:01:27   Love that company.

01:01:31   What else is on the agenda today?

01:01:32   I had so many.

01:01:34   Oh, so much.

01:01:36   How about the shot on iPhone challenge?

01:01:40   Yeah.

01:01:41   Apple announced the winners yesterday.

01:01:43   A lot of iPhone XS Max and a lot of Americans.

01:01:47   Yeah, I was wrong.

01:01:48   I said I would eat my hat if at least one winner didn't come from China.

01:01:52   There were no winners from China.

01:01:53   I was a judge from China, which is interesting because I think that there would have been

01:01:56   It's just given the size of the market. Yeah, I just linked to this before we started recording the show. I

01:02:02   Love the winners. I'm not surprised that they're great. I mean, I think it's one of the

01:02:08   Not just a great Apple ad campaign

01:02:12   I think it's been one of the best ad campaigns in recent years is the shot on iPhone ad campaign and I feel like it's it's

01:02:18   a great

01:02:20   Campaign in so many ways because it makes good photographs make for good billboards, right?

01:02:26   It is a thing that real people really do with their phones. I don't know if there's any single

01:02:34   thing people do on their phone that more people do on their phones than take photographs, right?

01:02:39   I mean, you know, I'm sure listening--

01:02:42   You text and take photos and you text your photos.

01:02:44   Right. And you listen to music, right? I mean, and podcasts. I mean,

01:02:51   we wouldn't have had so many arguments about headphone jacks if that wasn't part of it.

01:02:55   it. And you know, and they obviously did. iPhone camera is technically great. It is

01:03:03   amazing. You know, it's not just the iPhone, just modern high end cell phone cameras are

01:03:09   just tremendous. So I'm not surprised that these winners are good, but I really I really

01:03:15   do like them. I love this one comment from Judge Austin man. Yeah, where he just says

01:03:21   it's just this one picture from Nikita, Yerush in Belarus shot with an iPhone 7, which is

01:03:28   pretty cool. That's the one thing I would have bet more than that somebody a winner

01:03:34   would be from China would be that at least some of the winners would be on older iPhones

01:03:38   because I and again, I don't think that they cook the books for it. But I, you know, I

01:03:44   just know and you see it in the ad campaigns to that it's not just, oh, look what you can

01:03:49   shoot with the latest and greatest $1200 iPhone tennis max it is hey the iPhone 7 from three

01:03:58   years ago is still a tremendous camera. Anyway, she did announcement for the concert for the

01:04:02   contest. They had success photos. Yeah, a couple of them. Yep. Anyway, Nikita's photo,

01:04:08   which is is also one of my favorites is of a tennis court. Like an orange tennis court.

01:04:14   Maybe that's clay, I don't know.

01:04:15   Yeah, I think so.

01:04:17   With the net and a line and a crack in the clay, and it's just a super simple photo.

01:04:27   And I just love Austin Mann's comment.

01:04:29   I love how accessible this image is.

01:04:30   You don't have to travel to Iceland to capture something beautiful.

01:04:33   It's right under your nose.

01:04:36   And I think that's so true because that's what I love about these iPhone.

01:04:40   I'm a long time avid amateur photographer. And I love looking at truly great photos from

01:04:48   truly great photographers because it's, you know, it's inspiring. It makes me want to up

01:04:52   my photography game. And one of the things that I think is so fascinating about seeing

01:04:59   pro photographers like Austin Mann, you know, who's, who's, if the name rings a bell, Austin

01:05:06   man is—last few years has been doing reviews of new iPhone cameras by taking them to exotic

01:05:15   locations around the world like Africa. He was the one year he was with a bunch of silverback

01:05:20   gorillas and I forget where else he's been.

01:05:22   I think he—

01:05:23   Jared Polin An incredibly talented photographer.

01:05:24   Pete Turner Super talented photographer and a very nice

01:05:27   guy. I met him—

01:05:28   Jared Polin Yeah, he's amazing.

01:05:29   Pete Turner —after the last iPhone event. And, you know, we've corresponded by email

01:05:34   for years too, but I met him in person

01:05:37   and he's super, super generous

01:05:38   and really is a super great enthusiast

01:05:41   about like helping people up their photography game

01:05:45   with phones, but one of the things that's amazing

01:05:47   looking at the images coming from a pro photographer

01:05:50   like that is you just have no excuse about equipment.

01:05:53   Like you can't say, well, he is using a $5,000 SLR.

01:05:58   - And I love how he gives like feedback too,

01:06:00   'cause he's like, I love this new Smart HDR thing,

01:06:03   would you make it an impossible for me to take silhouettes

01:06:05   and it's part of my artistic repertoire.

01:06:07   So can we figure this out?

01:06:08   - Right, that's actually very true.

01:06:11   And a couple of these photos are taken in exotic locations,

01:06:17   but most of them aren't.

01:06:18   And that really is inspiring too, but it really is true.

01:06:21   There's not much, somebody who's an expert photographer

01:06:25   can use a quote unquote pro app like Halide,

01:06:33   which is a great, great iPhone camera app. And you can shoot raw instead of JPEG. And then by

01:06:39   shooting raw, you can get more in post than you could with the JPEG. And if you truly understand

01:06:50   what the effect that different shutter speeds have on an image or exposure times,

01:06:56   or ISO or whatever, there's some things you can adjust in some of these apps.

01:07:02   But for the most part, though, the pros, they might know more about that, but they're not

01:07:06   really using any kind of even software tools that aren't accessible to everybody.

01:07:10   So like the inspiration level on these is super high to me.

01:07:15   As opposed to say, like, a National Geographic photo contest, where they really are shot from

01:07:25   like the four corners of the globe. I was also like, just surprised that Apple didn't pan,

01:07:31   Like the it this isn't an apple pandering because there's no like oh look

01:07:34   This is using the new depth effect from our iPhone 10 are you know, like there's not a single portrait there?

01:07:40   They're not the usual Oh a picture of a pet picture of a face someone sitting on a corner, you know

01:07:46   If they really went for different looking stuff. Well, it's funny you would bring that up. I actually noticed looking at the winners that

01:07:52   So

01:07:55   promotionally Apple has spent a lot of time last two years talking about the portrait effect, which is about

01:08:00   blurring the background artificially, you know, through, you know, to create though, the look,

01:08:08   the quote unquote Boca effect of a shallow depth of field where the subject is in focus and the

01:08:14   background is out of focus and it's a lot of... Why did you bokeh Jacob? Why did you bokeh Jacob?

01:08:18   I mean, it's everywhere. It is. That's a funny ad. It's great. It's terrific. Yeah. That's,

01:08:24   if you haven't seen it, it's a couple of, I think it's, I think they're all women. It's a bunch of

01:08:29   moms are talking and one mom is taking a photo of the other mom's child and it's a portrait

01:08:34   photo and the other woman's child is in the background and she's like, "Why did you

01:08:41   Boca my child?" And she says, "I would never Boca, Jeff."

01:08:44   Why do you hate Jacob? What kind of person does that?

01:08:48   It's really funny though to see that. I just never expected—I've known the word Boca

01:08:53   for a long time as, like I said, as an amateur photo enthusiast. I never expected to see

01:08:58   it in a mainstream ad, you know, on primetime TV, but it's entered into vernacular. I actually

01:09:08   think it's interesting how many of these winning images actually have the opposite.

01:09:12   They have a truly infinite depth of field, you know, that there's a foreground subject

01:09:19   and a background that are both in focus. Here's this one. There's one of the winning photos

01:09:26   by Elizabeth Skarratt here in the US.

01:09:27   just looking at it now. Yeah, with an iPhone eight plus. So it's another older phone. But

01:09:32   it's a portrait of I guess her daughter up close to the camera with is that El Capitan

01:09:39   in the background?

01:09:40   It might be I'm not good with the mountains. I don't know there's mountains behind her

01:09:43   and let's just say it's a happy time. Right. But it's you know, the mountain is in focus,

01:09:48   the clouds, you know, literally 10s of miles away are in focus. And of course, the girl

01:09:54   little girl is in perfect focus, including individual strands of her hair. Yeah, I would

01:10:00   say that it's funny how many of these winners actually have a really deep depth of field.

01:10:05   And she uses contrast against the trees and the brightness of the grass to make the separation,

01:10:10   not the blur effect.

01:10:11   Yeah, it's a really good photo. And again, really hard to believe it's taken with a cell

01:10:17   phone. Really, it's inspiring.

01:10:23   They had a bunch of photographer judges, but they also had like Phil Schiller, Kayan Drance,

01:10:27   Sebastian Marinou-Mes.

01:10:28   They had a bunch of Apple, like people from the Apple marketing and the camera teams judging.

01:10:33   So you had a wide range.

01:10:34   If that's a name that might ring a bell.

01:10:36   She was actually on stage for the first time at the introduction of the iPhone, this year's

01:10:43   iPhones in September.

01:10:45   The A12 segment.

01:10:46   Yeah.

01:10:47   She, yeah, she had the segment, which was really, I think one of the toughest parts

01:10:51   was explaining how does the A12 AI stuff make photography better, which could easily have

01:11:01   gotten out into the weeds and instead was a really succinct, "Oh, okay, I get it.

01:11:07   We're making better images, not just through lenses and sensors. It really is billions.

01:11:14   It's like billions of computational decisions made for each shot instantaneously as you shoot

01:11:21   it. It was a really good segment.

01:11:22   And I know people have said this before, but it's worth pointing out, I've spoken to

01:11:24   a lot of companies where the marketing people are essentially salespeople. They're like

01:11:28   a used car salesman and they have no idea how the technology works or anything behind

01:11:32   it. They just want you to buy it. And Apple's team is very different. Most of them have

01:11:36   engineering degrees. They all are incredibly smart and they know how it works literally

01:11:40   down to the silicon. And you see that when they do present on stage. And also, Sebastian,

01:11:45   if people don't know Sebastian, he's been doing State of the Union for the last couple

01:11:48   Also very, very smart.

01:11:50   He runs the camera team now.

01:11:52   Used to be vice president of software at QNX previously.

01:11:54   These are all real serious people.

01:11:57   Yeah, yeah. I think my favorite, here's, I picked my favorite.

01:12:00   I'm going to ask you yours. They're all good.

01:12:02   My favorite though is Darren Sohs.

01:12:04   He's from Singapore.

01:12:06   And it's a reflection of like a, I'm guessing like an apartment building.

01:12:09   It's hard to say. Some kind of high rise.

01:12:11   In a puddle.

01:12:13   And it, I don't know what, I don't know.

01:12:16   - You know, it's so, it's very obvious, I think,

01:12:19   is it Phil Schiller?

01:12:20   Yeah, Phil Schiller's comments on this one.

01:12:21   He was one of the judges.

01:12:23   It's a reflection that looks like a painting.

01:12:24   I mean, and it's the best way to say it.

01:12:27   But it looks so much like a painting, it's stunning.

01:12:30   And I think that, I think it would be a great photo anyway,

01:12:32   but there's a bird that's captured in the sky

01:12:35   that in like just the perfect location

01:12:38   that really makes it.

01:12:40   It's just, it's such a compelling image.

01:12:42   - Yeah.

01:12:44   and just great color and that's probably my favorite.

01:12:46   - When you look at it every time,

01:12:47   you see the building and you look again,

01:12:49   you notice the puddle and you look again,

01:12:50   you notice the different, like the layers of the puddle.

01:12:52   It's just so many depths to it, so much depths to it.

01:12:55   - Yeah, what's your favorite?

01:12:57   - I like, I don't know if it's Dina or Dinah Al-Fasi

01:13:00   from Israel and she just got this perfect frame

01:13:03   of like this desolate sidewalk with a little tiny leaf

01:13:06   in the corner, but then this perfect heart-shaped puddle,

01:13:08   which is this deep blue and a person walking,

01:13:11   Again, everything is just perfectly framed in that instant

01:13:15   with like the world behind them, but you're not part of it.

01:13:17   But maybe if you follow them, you could be.

01:13:20   And it's just like, it's mystery and evocative

01:13:22   at the same time, mysterious and evocative.

01:13:25   - Yeah, I'm also, it's like--

01:13:28   - iPhone 10, by the way.

01:13:29   - iPhone 10.

01:13:30   It's fascinating too, because until I noticed the leaf,

01:13:36   I was even unsure of the scale.

01:13:39   I kind of thought it was a relatively small puddle, but I wasn't sure. I don't know, it's

01:13:45   a great image too. They're all, you know, unsurprising. And then you realize the person

01:13:48   walking is upside down to make them look right side up in the puddle. And, you know, it's,

01:13:52   again, many layers of perception. Yeah, it's really cool. And I'm shocked, the 10 best photos

01:14:01   in this very highly promoted iPhone photo contest are all amazing images. But they really are. And

01:14:08   And it's super, super inspiring knowing

01:14:10   that I'm walking around every waking moment of my life

01:14:14   with a camera as good or better than what was used

01:14:18   to take every one of these images.

01:14:21   So thank you for making me feel like a terrible,

01:14:24   incompetent photographer Apple.

01:14:27   - Yeah, and what I love about it still is that,

01:14:29   like, you know, people argue about which camera is the best,

01:14:31   but you really, for just taking a camera out of your pocket

01:14:34   and taking a shot and not having to worry about the app

01:14:36   taking forever to launch or figuring out

01:14:38   which of 19 different AI modes you want to engage for.

01:14:41   Just take it out of your pocket, take a shot,

01:14:43   and odds are you're gonna get a really useful photo.

01:14:46   - Yeah, absolutely.

01:14:47   It's, I don't know, it's a,

01:14:51   for as depressing as our opening segment was

01:14:53   on the state of privacy in the industry,

01:14:55   it's, it's, it's super exciting to me

01:14:59   how amazing the cameras we have with us at all times are,

01:15:05   you know, including video. All right, next segment. How about we talk about folding phones?

01:15:13   Yeah, sure. So we have two folding phones now. We had, I think I spoke about it with

01:15:19   Glenn Fleishman in last week's episode, the Samsung Galaxy Fold. Very intriguingly named.

01:15:28   And the people who brought you the Samsung Galaxy Circle in previous years.

01:15:34   This was introduced at Samsung's "unpacked" event like a week and a half ago in San Francisco

01:15:42   at the Bill Graham Civic Auditorium.

01:15:47   And now this week at the—what's the name of the show in Barcelona?

01:15:50   Michael Scott Mobile World Congress, MWC.

01:15:52   Dave Asprey MWC, Mobile World Congress is a big—every

01:15:58   other than Samsung and Apple introduced their phones at MWC. Huawei unveiled their Mate

01:16:07   X. Is it the Mate X or Mate 10? It's spelled with a mate.

01:16:11   Jon Sorrentino It's the Mate X. Yeah, it's hard. It's

01:16:12   hard to use, but yeah, it's the Mate X.

01:16:14   Dave Asprey All right, their folding phone. But before

01:16:17   I get to them, let me actually take a moment here on the side. Here's something I didn't

01:16:22   know. I think I forget if this was on the show or something I wrote about. I think it

01:16:26   was when I wrote about Samsung's phone and I had a little parenthetical wondering why

01:16:31   the hell do they call everything the galaxy whatever because it's just adding an extra

01:16:35   word every single thing they unveiled Samsung unveiled is the Samsung Galaxy blank. The

01:16:41   phones are the galaxy s 10 and s 10 plus the earbuds are the Samsung Galaxy buds. I think

01:16:49   they're calling them. Yeah, why not just the Samsung buds? Why not? Why do they insert

01:16:53   galaxy into all of it. And one answer I got from people is that Samsung is such a bizarre

01:17:01   conglomerate that they make washing machines and refrigerators and all of these other various

01:17:10   things that the galaxy thing is a way to say this is our computer stuff. I don't know.

01:17:17   I wouldn't be surprised if they come out with a galaxy refrigerator, frankly.

01:17:20   It's a bunch of different companies that all license the name Samsung and are owned

01:17:25   to a certain percentage by the Samsung company, I believe.

01:17:28   Not completely owned all the time, but partially owned at least.

01:17:32   The more interesting angle, and this is news to me, is that in Japan, Korean brands are

01:17:41   so frowned upon and looked upon with such disdain, and at least Samsung in particular,

01:17:46   Samsung doesn't use the Samsung brand in Japan. When you buy a Samsung phone in Japan,

01:17:53   it's just called like the Galaxy S10, and it doesn't say Samsung on the back,

01:17:57   so it's like a different SKU. It doesn't have that Samsung logo on it.

01:18:01   Like Datsun before Nissan.

01:18:04   Yeah, it's really wild. A couple of readers and listeners or whatever, you know, but

01:18:09   who live in Japan sent me pictures and stuff of like… And the other thing too is Japan is

01:18:15   Japan is still a very carrier-centric dominated country. Probably not that different in the

01:18:22   US. In Europe, there's a lot of places where your carrier is just an afterthought and people

01:18:28   just pop in SIMs and nobody even really…people change carriers a lot freer and buy their

01:18:35   phones independent of their carrier service. But Japan, it's still very dominated by

01:18:40   carriers. But you know, somebody had a photo, I forget which one of the Japanese maybe Docomo,

01:18:46   I think, but one of their stores. And like the Samsung kiosk doesn't say Samsung anywhere. It's

01:18:51   just all galaxy. So they use that galaxy brand so that they don't have to say Samsung. I really was

01:18:59   blown away by it. So it's kind of bizarre because I've always been hung up on the weird way that

01:19:04   Samsung loves to put their logo so big. It's not even a good logo. I mean, it's just billions on

01:19:10   putting it everywhere.

01:19:12   - Right, and that of all the things I always used to say,

01:19:14   they copied so much from the iPhone,

01:19:16   and the one thing they couldn't bring themselves to copy

01:19:19   was the humility of not putting your logo

01:19:21   on the front of the phone.

01:19:23   Like they kept that Samsung thing on the front of the phone

01:19:25   until they ran out of chance.

01:19:26   - Until there was no more front on the phone.

01:19:29   - Right, until there was no more front.

01:19:31   And then they started putting it on the back,

01:19:33   but not in Japan.

01:19:34   In Japan, it's Galaxy.

01:19:35   So there's my aside on that.

01:19:37   So I guess that means they're stuck

01:19:39   and the rest of the world calling everything Samsung Galaxy, blah, blah, blah.

01:19:45   Oh, man.

01:19:47   Anyway, we got the Huawei Mate X and we've got the Samsung Galaxy Fold and it's fascinating

01:19:55   one two punch because they literally fold the opposite way.

01:20:00   They're actually, you know, fundamentally in an Audi TM, fundamentally the same basic

01:20:06   idea.

01:20:07   a cell phone sized smartphone that unfolds to a squarish tablet size device. But because

01:20:16   the ones in any and ones in Audi, it's two very different takes on it. Neither one of

01:20:22   them is practically priced. The Samsung Galaxy Fold starts at $1980 and I think the Mate

01:20:32   is 2300 euros, which I did the calculation at least as of a day or two ago. That was

01:20:38   $2,600.

01:20:39   Chuck Liddell Yeah, which you can't get it. You'll have

01:20:42   to import it because you can't buy it in the U.S.

01:20:44   Dave Asprey Right, because Huawei has a very strange

01:20:48   relationship with the United States. It's funny being the iPhone enthusiast and now

01:20:58   being the one laughing at the prices of other people's phones.

01:21:03   At least it's not Samsung expensive is everything every Apple person can say now.

01:21:08   Yeah. And you know, but clearly it would be different though, if the Samsung Galaxy S

01:21:13   10 were $2,000 because clearly the S 10 and S 10 plus and the S 10 E those three phones

01:21:19   are the ones that are meant to they are Samsung's flagship phones for 2019. This folding thing

01:21:27   is not meant to sell in huge quantities.

01:21:31   - No, that's part of the reason why it's priced out

01:21:32   because it's a small batch and they have to

01:21:35   sort of spread out the cost of running it

01:21:37   amongst the units.

01:21:38   And early adopters will pay a lot

01:21:40   because they're early adopters.

01:21:41   - I wonder, you know, I mean it certainly is a,

01:21:45   there's no mistaking it as a new phone, right?

01:21:47   I mean, it is definite, you know,

01:21:51   if you want somebody, if you want people to know

01:21:53   that you have a very expensive new phone,

01:21:56   that these are the ones to get.

01:21:58   - Let me just unfold my phone and give you that answer.

01:22:02   - I personally, I'm intrigued enough

01:22:06   that it's a topic on the show and I've linked to them both

01:22:09   and I'm following along, but I'm also convinced

01:22:12   that neither one of these really should be considered

01:22:16   more than a shipping prototype.

01:22:18   - I should have mentioned there was a third one there

01:22:20   that got much less attention, LG,

01:22:21   because they hadn't made a folding phone.

01:22:24   They made a case with a second display

01:22:26   that you put your phone in and then it essentially becomes a folding phone. And the case is really

01:22:30   expensive because it has that second display in it.

01:22:33   Dave Asprey But then there must be a gap or something,

01:22:34   right?

01:22:35   Jon Streeter Yes. There's like a hinge in the middle.

01:22:38   Dave Asprey Hmm.

01:22:39   Jon Streeter So it's two discrete screens.

01:22:41   Dave Asprey You know, it raises some questions. So with

01:22:45   Samsung's AnyDesign, where the folding display folds in and on itself, and then you have,

01:22:53   They put an extra display, therefore on the outside,

01:22:57   so there'd be something you can see

01:22:58   while the phone is folded.

01:22:59   - And a small one with these huge,

01:23:01   like inch and a half bezels on top and bottom too.

01:23:04   - Absolutely huge.

01:23:05   I mean, almost hard to believe chin and forehead bezels.

01:23:08   Like not like, oh my God, we're back to the old--

01:23:10   - Like Frankenstein's monster chin and forehead bezels.

01:23:12   - Right, not like the old iPhones

01:23:15   before the iPhone 10 chin and forehead.

01:23:18   We're talking way, way bigger.

01:23:20   Like unlike anything you've ever seen.

01:23:22   You know, you know it it

01:23:24   It's probably the lowest

01:23:27   You know, what's the term the screen?

01:23:29   Screen to bezel ratio. It's got to be the highest since like

01:23:35   flip phones

01:23:36   Yeah

01:23:37   I can't tell if it's like

01:23:38   components forced them to do that because it was just they just couldn't bury them under the screen or they thought it was so

01:23:43   Thick they needed to make the screen fall smaller for you to be able to use it one

01:23:46   I don't know what the what that was which wouldn't dictated the other well and how much of it's just price that you know

01:23:51   - Yeah. - The bigger the display.

01:23:52   I mean, clearly the idea with the Samsung One

01:23:55   of their concept is that that small outer display

01:24:00   in folded mode is really only meant

01:24:03   for very quick casual use.

01:24:05   In other words, you know, oh, you have a notification,

01:24:08   who's it from? - Yeah.

01:24:09   - Oh, my phone, somebody's calling me, who is it?

01:24:11   - I'm walking around, I can't stop and open it,

01:24:15   I just wanna get a couple quick things done.

01:24:17   - Yeah, I don't even know if the camera works in that mode.

01:24:21   Like I don't even know if you know.

01:24:23   - Yeah, there's a whole series of cameras.

01:24:25   That's the other thing is it's got a whole series

01:24:26   of cameras on the back and then they have the biggest notch.

01:24:28   Like it's so big, it's like a pirate patch

01:24:30   on the inside for a whole bunch of internal cameras too.

01:24:33   - It's clearly the idea though is that anytime

01:24:37   you're actually doing anything,

01:24:38   you're going to take the phone and open it up and unfold it.

01:24:42   But at a fundamental level,

01:24:45   I think that the Huawei Audi design is better

01:24:50   because there is no extra screen, right?

01:24:53   It's just one screen and you only use half of it

01:24:56   when you're in phone mode.

01:24:58   You know, it seems less wasteful.

01:25:01   It's inelegant to have an extra screen.

01:25:03   - Yeah, it's more efficient but less protected

01:25:06   because now that plastic screen,

01:25:08   'cause there's no folding Gorilla Glass yet,

01:25:10   is just always exposed to the outside world.

01:25:13   - In theory, you know,

01:25:16   and I understand why nobody's really pulled this off

01:25:19   and I understand why Apple hasn't done it, you know, but in theory, it's wasteful that

01:25:23   we even have front facing cameras. I mean, in theory, it would be nice if there was some

01:25:27   way that you could have one camera and then have it rotate. So that whether you know,

01:25:32   you're facing the phone, you know, taking a picture of yourself or taking the picture

01:25:36   away from the phone, it would be the same camera. You know, and in the same way, it's

01:25:41   wasteful to have a second display that you only use when the phone is in a secondary

01:25:45   I get it though that you know, they wanted to have it fold in and of itself. I don't know

01:25:51   Yeah, they wanted to make a book and Huawei is as that that it has one camera system and it sort of does a pass

01:25:55   Through when you want to take, you know selfies or else's well and yeah

01:25:59   I wasn't sure how they did that

01:26:02   neither of these seems super compelling to me though, and

01:26:06   There's a clearly a crease on the the Huawei one like though

01:26:13   You think like how do you how would you do this would not have it some kind of crease and it the answer is well

01:26:18   You don't there. It's not there is no magic way that this

01:26:22   You know, maybe someday we'll get there, you know, but as of now there is, you know

01:26:26   There's definitely a crease in the middle that's on day one. Like these are the demo units

01:26:30   You don't like it's hard to imagine what it's gonna look like a month two months a year in all right

01:26:34   Yeah, well, there's a real durability question with both. Yeah

01:26:37   Because especially with the wall way with where the main display is on the outside at all times

01:26:43   And yeah, I don't know what percentage of people use their phone with no case. I suspect

01:26:50   it's you know, I've talked about before I would guess it's a 10% or fewer

01:26:55   And if you put a screen protector on does that crease now as well? I mean like the whole thing. How would you do it?

01:27:00   Yeah, how would you do a screen protector?

01:27:02   And even you know and I tend not to use a case so I'm you know

01:27:07   Yeah

01:27:07   I'm in that group that mostly but I I'm also always as somebody who doesn't use a case very

01:27:13   hagdens in a which side of my phone is a display and which is not and if I'm ever setting it down on a

01:27:19   Surface I tend to set it with the display up, you know

01:27:24   So that yeah doesn't get scratched by something that might be on the table or surface

01:27:27   How do you do that when both sides are display, you know, there is no lucky side to drop it on or to get a scratch

01:27:37   Yep, and combine that with the fact that both of these because glass isn't yet

01:27:41   flexible they're both plastic screens not glass and

01:27:46   possibly therefore

01:27:49   More scratchable. Oh, absolutely. Definitely more scratchable. You have to put it in an iPod sock the minute you close it, right?

01:27:55   It's you know, how do you so I?

01:27:57   Don't know. I'm not sure the foldable phones will ever be a thing for for some reason some including durability and

01:28:05   The fact that people want to put them in cases, you know, and if people want to put their seven hundred and fifty dollar

01:28:11   phones in a kit protective case

01:28:14   Which is a total sensible totally sensible thing to do and way to think about it

01:28:18   You know, maybe I'm the idiot for not putting my phones in cases most of the time

01:28:22   I'll tell you what if it's two thousand dollars

01:28:25   It's only going to increase their desire to put it in a case and if the design of the phone is that well

01:28:29   You can't put it in a case because the whole gimmick is it unfolds?

01:28:32   I'm not sure that appeals to a lot of people and I don't know how you get around that

01:28:36   How do you design a phone that can fold whether it's an innie or an outie and still be able to put it in a protective?

01:28:42   case

01:28:43   Yeah, absolutely

01:28:44   I mean to me this I

01:28:45   Remember when I was at CES and they introduced the galaxy note for the first time and they put it on every table in this

01:28:50   room that we went into and we all picked them up and

01:28:52   Looked at them and the screens were horrible because no one really had good screen tech

01:28:56   I mean there's one of the reasons Apple made the people you know

01:28:59   And one of the reasons Apple made the phone smaller

01:29:00   was so you could hit it.

01:29:02   But also that was literally the biggest size

01:29:04   they could make the screen back then

01:29:05   to a quality standard that they were found acceptable.

01:29:07   But Samsung's like, they just stretched it out

01:29:09   and it did not look good.

01:29:10   And that whole phone was deeply compromised.

01:29:13   But flash forward a few years

01:29:14   and we have really good big phones now.

01:29:17   And that's a much easier problem set to solve for

01:29:19   than the foldable phones.

01:29:21   So I love the idea.

01:29:22   I love the idea of having one thing that's my phone

01:29:25   that can open up into a tablet.

01:29:26   I think it's a brilliant idea.

01:29:29   It has not been realized yet to say it like easily,

01:29:33   but, and if it can never be realized well,

01:29:35   I will never buy one of them, but I hold out hope.

01:29:38   You know, Apple, I heard about Apple experimenting

01:29:40   with the stuff, I think back in the iPhone 4S days,

01:29:43   and obviously they're not happy with anything

01:29:45   'cause they haven't shipped anything yet.

01:29:46   They have the resources and smarts

01:29:49   to basically prototype anything that they want

01:29:52   as often as they want.

01:29:53   So my guess is, you know, that they don't find

01:29:55   this technology acceptable yet either.

01:29:57   I don't know if they ever will,

01:29:59   but it is a compelling idea to have that one thing

01:30:02   that you can just like, almost like the Star Trek thing.

01:30:04   It's just a very,

01:30:06   people have been folding wallets and books for millennia.

01:30:08   It's something we're very used to.

01:30:10   - Well, to me, the canonical sci-fi prototype for this

01:30:15   are the devices in Westworld.

01:30:19   I mentioned this last week with Glenn,

01:30:21   but Westworld has these,

01:30:26   - What's the name of the company?

01:30:27   - I don't know.

01:30:30   - Basic idea of Westworld for those who aren't familiar

01:30:32   is that it's like at some point, unnamed point

01:30:35   in the somewhat near future,

01:30:37   there's a theme park you can go to where it's,

01:30:40   you're just, you get put into a cowboy outfit and you're,

01:30:44   you know, it's like the real, the wild West come to life

01:30:48   and you just get to be a...

01:30:50   - It's an old Michael Crichton movie

01:30:52   that they remade for TV.

01:30:53   - Right, and it's really good.

01:30:54   It's on HBO.

01:30:55   I really enjoy it tremendously, but the employees of the theme park use these tablet computers

01:31:02   that fold to be like cell phone size and are completely usable, folded or unfolded.

01:31:09   So you can put it in a pocket, fold it, take it out and use it if you just want to use

01:31:13   it, but then you can unfold it.

01:31:15   And they're maybe like the thickness of a credit card.

01:31:19   So they're very, very thin.

01:31:22   You know, just, you know, that, that, that future dream of just having a device that

01:31:29   is just a screen, no thicker than the screen, and everything is just in there.

01:31:36   And they look great.

01:31:37   It's they do a great job with the user interface.

01:31:39   I guess there's anything I would gripe about it seems to me like they make the user interface

01:31:43   too small.

01:31:44   Yeah, I think that if you actually saw that much information density, and a device, it

01:31:49   be untouchable. It wouldn't be unsuited to touch, but it's the sort of thing where it makes it look

01:31:55   more sci-fi-y to have more information on. So I would bet that they're fully aware that it's

01:32:02   actually unusable for touch information density, but looks cooler. So therefore, they went with

01:32:10   that direction. But anyway, they fold and unfold exactly the way, in theory, one would want their

01:32:18   phone to fold and unfold. So you can get a tablet size computer whenever you need it

01:32:23   and use a phone size thing when you don't.

01:32:25   Yeah, if Xiaomi had this, they haven't actually shown the phone off yet, but their CEO was using

01:32:30   a phone that was a tablet and you fold both the left and the right side in behind it and

01:32:35   that becomes your phone. So they're always experimenting with all sorts of crazy stuff.

01:32:38   It is an interesting idea. Would you are these things, are they phones that unfold or are they

01:32:44   tablets that fold up. It also speaks to the problems these companies are dealing with

01:32:52   where Android is a lot better for phones than it is for tablets. I think even Android proponents

01:33:01   would agree with that, that Android, however much you might like it as your phone operating

01:33:07   system, it's never really done a great job on tablets. Even Google seems to acknowledge

01:33:13   that by moving more towards Chrome as the OS for their tablet-sized devices than Android.

01:33:21   But if Android isn't good at being a tablet, then what's the point of having a phone that

01:33:24   opens up to tablet size?

01:33:26   Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

01:33:28   You know, in theory, iOS would be a lot better at this than Android.

01:33:33   I was thinking about it too because you have the size classes already, so you just have

01:33:37   a regular size class.

01:33:39   When it opens up, it takes on—sorry, you have the compact size class that opens up,

01:33:43   a regular size class with the same kind of mechanics that you have in iOS and iPad apps

01:33:47   and you already have all those universal binaries. So their software story at least is I think much

01:33:51   cleaner at this point. Yeah. I don't know. I don't think either of these are going to be. I don't

01:33:56   think we're. My question is will they be popular enough that you'll actually maybe see one this

01:34:01   year? Like will somebody, will I get an email from somebody by the end of year and say hey I actually

01:34:05   saw somebody with the Galaxy Fold you know at the mall and wherever Peoria. I don't know. Like I

01:34:12   Like I don't even know if these things are realistic,

01:34:15   real products enough that we're even going to see them,

01:34:17   let alone be using them.

01:34:19   - Yeah, I think right now, again, these are like,

01:34:23   unlike Apple, Apple keeps their prototypes

01:34:25   and their shame internal.

01:34:26   These companies are very happy to sort of put them in public

01:34:29   and I think it benefits Apple too,

01:34:30   because, you know, Apple got to watch 10 years of smartphones

01:34:33   of Blackberries and Poms and Windows Mobile

01:34:35   and figure out what problems they had

01:34:36   and how Apple could solve them.

01:34:37   Same thing with tablet PC,

01:34:39   same thing with the different watch brands

01:34:41   this everyone's gonna watch these they'll have the same discussions that

01:34:44   we have and if you can solve a problem you can make a better product then

01:34:48   they'll go and if they're just flawed by nature then and there'll be no go

01:34:51   well like the idea of flexible displays is fascinating because we've you know

01:34:57   from the CRT until very until very recently displays were anything but

01:35:03   flexible they were completely inflexible typically would would crack very easily

01:35:08   easily if you tried to flex them.

01:35:13   What Apple's take on this, and one of the first ways that these flexible OLEDs have

01:35:19   been used in Samsung's case is to fold a little bit of the screen over the side of

01:35:24   the display.

01:35:27   And they had some weird UI experiments where they would show notifications in that area,

01:35:34   of like, what do they call them, chyrons, chyrons, like on TV, you know, like a little

01:35:39   ticker tape thing at the bottom of CNN or MSNBC or ESPN.

01:35:42   Jared Ranerelle It was like putting a little colored note sticker

01:35:45   on the outside of your book.

01:35:46   Dave Asprey I've never found that very compelling.

01:35:49   It kind of looks cool because it's literally edge to edge and there's no bezel at all

01:35:55   on the side.

01:35:56   So it looks good in a product photograph, but I've never understood the point of having

01:36:01   it because you can't hold the phone without covering up that part of it. Apple obviously

01:36:06   isn't impressed with that design. But the one area where Apple has used flexible displays

01:36:12   so far is in the iPhone X and now the XS and XS Max where they use the flexible nature

01:36:18   of the OLED to curve the display at the—I think it's just the top and bottom.

01:36:25   Yeah under but you don't it's only to make they're using the the the flexible nature of OLED

01:36:31   to make the iPhone 10 and

01:36:34   10s displays go, you know from the top to bottom with no chin or forehead or minimal minimal bezel

01:36:42   That's the same as it is on the sides. The flexible part is completely hidden from view so you don't see it as flex

01:36:48   It's just that's the implementation detail of how they made it get look like it goes all the way from the top and bottom

01:36:55   So I think that's plugging into the module underneath it forcing a chin it can go it's right on the bottom of it

01:37:00   It goes underneath it not therefore hiding the chin there

01:37:02   Well, we're leaving it with the possibility making the chin area right 90 well over 99% of all iPhone 10

01:37:08   Owners have no idea that they're using a display that is flexed under the bottom and top

01:37:14   Because it doesn't look like it at all. Like yeah, totally

01:37:17   It's it's fascinating and such a difference to me that Apple, you know is using this expensive

01:37:23   state-of-the-art flexible screen technology in a way that completely hides the fact that it's flexible at all

01:37:29   Well, I think implementation detail right but that to me is so super appley

01:37:33   Whereas whereas like the initial Samsung thing was look at this. It's flexible

01:37:38   Look, it bends around the side like it couldn't be more in your face that hey, this is a flexible display

01:37:43   It goes back to that old Steve Jobs

01:37:45   Speech when he said we never want to look at a technology and figure out how to use it

01:37:50   that we wanna figure out a product

01:37:51   and then find the technology that enables it.

01:37:53   - I have a-- - And they wanted--

01:37:55   - Yep, it's such a great quote, yeah.

01:37:57   - Yeah, yeah, like they never looked at NFC and said,

01:38:00   "Hey, we oughta put this radio in."

01:38:01   They're like, "We need Apple Pay, what component?"

01:38:03   It's not a chipset, it's a feature set for them.

01:38:06   - I had a friend who, until recently, worked at Apple

01:38:09   and his remark upon seeing the,

01:38:12   I think the first of the, I think it was the Samsung one,

01:38:15   he goes, "That's a total," he just said the same thing,

01:38:18   That's a total Steve Jobs, that's a technology, not a product.

01:38:23   Somebody at Samsung was like, "Look, we could do this."

01:38:26   And then they said, "Okay, build a phone that does that."

01:38:28   Whereas nobody would really think, "Hey, let's build a display with a big crease

01:38:32   in the middle."

01:38:33   Well, I went to CES this year and I saw the Fruit Roll-Up TV from LG.

01:38:37   And at first I thought, "This is a brilliant idea because it'll just roll up to whatever

01:38:41   aspect ratio of the content you want to watch.

01:38:43   Like if it's a 16 by 9 show, it'll go to 16 by 9.

01:38:46   but if you're watching Lawrence of Arabia,

01:38:49   it'll give you like this,

01:38:50   no, you'll never have to worry about bars or anything again.

01:38:53   And they're like, nope, it's got two modes,

01:38:55   partially up for alarm clock, all the way up for TV.

01:38:58   That's it.

01:38:59   Like, well, then why use the technology?

01:39:01   - Well, I didn't think about,

01:39:04   that one I'm a little bit more,

01:39:06   I was actually gonna bring that up.

01:39:07   I actually feel like that LG rollable TV,

01:39:13   It's interesting to me if the nature of the room you want to put it in is such that you

01:39:19   don't want a TV up all the time.

01:39:21   Sure.

01:39:22   I don't know what that is.

01:39:25   I'm not a hide-the-TV person.

01:39:28   I'm a—look, I don't know.

01:39:30   Maybe—I don't know.

01:39:32   If you had a penthouse overlooking the city and you didn't want it to obstruct your view

01:39:35   until you wanted to watch the game.

01:39:38   Right.

01:39:39   And one time many years ago, I got an upgrade at Bellagio in Vegas and got a room that had

01:39:46   a TV at the foot of the bed.

01:39:49   And you hit a button and it would rise out.

01:39:53   And apparently Oprah Winfrey has had one of these for a long time.

01:39:55   My wife was very excited about that.

01:39:58   It's very cool.

01:39:59   - It really, it required a TV size box

01:40:04   at the foot of the bed because it would,

01:40:09   you know, the TV didn't,

01:40:11   there was a TV that was there all the time.

01:40:13   It just would go into this box and then you'd hit a button

01:40:16   and it would pop out of the box so you could see it.

01:40:19   In a case like that, the LG thing would be way more elegant,

01:40:23   you know, where it folds up into a little tiny box.

01:40:26   It doesn't have to, you know.

01:40:29   I don't know.

01:40:30   I'm sure we'll see it.

01:40:31   And I'm seeing them in advertising contexts

01:40:34   all over the place, that there's foldable displays

01:40:37   that people are putting up along the sides of buildings

01:40:39   and stuff like that.

01:40:40   I mean, it's clearly the future.

01:40:41   - Well, the rumor is, yes, you went in there,

01:40:43   the displays just curved up every side.

01:40:45   Like you even saw that in the Samsung event.

01:40:47   It looked like almost like a Celtic cross.

01:40:48   They had the displays folded around.

01:40:51   - Yeah, I think the initial uses that make a lot of sense

01:40:56   are in industrial—maybe that's the wrong word—installations, like lobby, if you're

01:41:04   going to use a display, big displays to decorate the lobby of your fancy new hotel, using flexible

01:41:11   displays would be way cooler. If you have circular columns in your building, it would

01:41:19   be kind of amazing to make a seamless display that wraps around the column in a, you know,

01:41:26   in a cylinder, a cylindrical display. There's all sorts of ways that flexible displays could

01:41:30   look cool, but I think in consumer technology, we haven't seen anything yet that's really

01:41:35   compelling.

01:41:36   Yeah, no, agreed.

01:41:37   And again, it is an interesting difference with Apple where Apple isn't going to show

01:41:42   a cruddy flexible phone that they don't want anybody to actually buy yet, just so

01:41:46   they can say first.

01:41:47   Yeah, yeah, they never first is not on their in their vocabulary, right?

01:41:51   you could almost see it at Samsung's event that it's like the the

01:41:55   consumer technology equivalent of being in the YouTube comments and writing first and

01:42:01   Huawei did the same thing first and like we just saw the Samsung one last week, but okay, right?

01:42:06   It was a royale flex pie at CES, which was just horrible

01:42:09   I mean, they're all making these now which was also funny because there are a bunch of people who said only Samsung could make this

01:42:14   There's they're so far ahead. They've got years and years of lead. No one else can make this fold and then it's like eight of them

01:42:19   Yeah, I saw that I saw that there was a note speaking of Goldman Sachs where Goldman Sachs had a note saying that you know

01:42:28   I think it was overblown the reaction. I think you actually read the note

01:42:32   It was just if you know, and I think that if that needs to be in all caps

01:42:37   bold

01:42:40   and italics if

01:42:43   foldable phones become a thing Samsung might have a leg up a serious leg up on Apple because Samsung

01:42:48   produces their own screen technology and Apple is a

01:42:51   Buyer of screen technology made by others and I think that's actually a valid point. I think that you know

01:42:58   We see that now with the iPhone 10 and 10s that Samsung just charges them a fortune for those displays

01:43:03   Right, and I don't at this point. Nobody else can make them. Nobody else is making a no lead that meets apples

01:43:09   exacting demands for

01:43:12   You know color accuracy and etc. Etc. It is interesting now

01:43:16   There's you know, and and you see it with Samsung's devices and they're in a weird place, but to some degrees it's interesting that

01:43:22   Samsung's really the only other company that that can say that they follow the Tim Cook mantra of owning and controlling the core

01:43:31   technologies of their devices, I mean Samsung can do their own

01:43:35   CPUs and they do make their own displays

01:43:39   I mean Huawei is like that they make the key run processor

01:43:42   They even make the cell phone towers that it runs off of but they're just not gonna be sold

01:43:46   All right, let me take a break and thank our third

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01:46:19   What else is on our agenda Renee

01:46:26   God secret lives of Facebook moderators in America. This is a great story

01:46:30   I still haven't linked to it from during fireball because it was it really a great story by Casey Newton at

01:46:37   the verge

01:46:39   Really what probably the most compelling thing I've read all week

01:46:43   Talking about this company

01:46:47   That is sort of like a contractor for Facebook to do moderation here in the US. So it's not Facebook employees

01:46:55   It's what's the name of this company here?

01:46:57   Cognizant

01:47:00   C o g and I see a NT they have an office and I guess somewhere in Arizona and people come in you get this job and

01:47:07   It sounds it's almost dystopian I mean maybe I should take out the word almost it's it's dystopian and

01:47:17   Apparently that is not like like one of the bragging points that they make is that it's you know

01:47:24   know, they have windows and it's like a nice, it's not some dank basement. So maybe

01:47:30   that aspect of it isn't, isn't this topic, dystopian, I forget the word. But in terms

01:47:39   of what it's like to work there, it is, it's like you check in, you have to leave

01:47:45   your phone, you can't have any paper or pencils because they don't want people like

01:47:52   down the names of the people involved in the things that they're doing. They micromanage

01:48:00   your bathroom breaks, and you're expected to go through hundreds of disputed, flagged

01:48:08   things on Facebook every day, whether it's identifying whether somebody's

01:48:16   rant is racist or whether there's a, you know, somebody posts, they post just the worst stuff

01:48:22   you can imagine. Videos of people being killed by drones in the Middle East and, and obviously,

01:48:32   I'm sure tons of pornographic stuff. And you just have to go through hundreds of these things and

01:48:41   they get in big trouble if you're, you know, they audit, you know, a couple of dozen of your

01:48:49   everybody's things a week. And if yours don't match up with what they expect them to, you get

01:48:55   in trouble. There's not much money in this. It seems like whether they only pay like $28,000

01:49:00   a year for a full-time employee. And it really seems—

01:49:04   Yeah, they pay nothing and they just totally—and it sounds like these people are being

01:49:07   Destroyed like emotionally psychically in every way possible right because for 40 hours a week every week

01:49:14   They are just looking at nothing but the worst. I mean that's you know, the stuff that's innocuous isn't isn't getting flagged for moderation

01:49:22   so it's just 40 hours a day of

01:49:24   Evaluating the worst stuff posted to Facebook. Yeah, let's talk about one woman in the beginning who's just watching people getting murdered

01:49:32   Yeah. Yeah, and she had like a panic attack and and yeah, you know it

01:49:37   You know, who can blame her? I mean, it's, you know, people aren't—most people aren't

01:49:45   hooked up to consume stuff like that.

01:49:47   Yeah, it's literally soul-crushing.

01:49:49   Yeah, it's like snuff films and stuff. It's really crazy. Facebook.

01:49:56   Yeah, player of the year. Well, you've mentioned this before. It's just like they—it's

01:50:05   It's not a company that normal people work at, it's just not.

01:50:08   - One of the things that was raised,

01:50:12   I mean, and one of the things that's a little

01:50:15   morally questionable is the relationship Facebook has

01:50:20   with these moderation companies like this,

01:50:21   that they're keeping this at arm's reach

01:50:24   and they're not making them full-time,

01:50:26   they're not making them Facebook employees,

01:50:27   they're employees of a company called Cognizant

01:50:29   and they have a contract with Facebook.

01:50:31   To me, there's a lack of ownership there,

01:50:35   that they should be full-time Facebook employees.

01:50:39   This is Facebook's problem.

01:50:40   This is the nature of their platform.

01:50:43   Farming this out to another company is,

01:50:48   there's a certain lack of,

01:50:52   I'm not surprised that that's how they do it,

01:50:54   but it seems like it's brushing it aside.

01:50:59   Like this is something that they should know.

01:51:01   - To be clear, there was an expose a couple weeks ago

01:51:03   about contract workers in Silicon Valley,

01:51:06   and it was Apple and Google and all the big companies.

01:51:09   And they were just, none of them were treated as well

01:51:11   as employees would be treated.

01:51:12   They were all micromanaged.

01:51:13   They all hated their jobs.

01:51:15   And it's just not a good culture.

01:51:16   And it seems to be endemic in the area.

01:51:20   But when you're dealing with material like this,

01:51:22   it seems to be especially, like verifying addresses

01:51:25   for Apple or Google onto a Maps app,

01:51:27   that's probably really boring work.

01:51:29   But these people are again watching the absolute worst

01:51:31   of humanity over and over again for nothing.

01:51:35   - Yeah, or not much.

01:51:37   And it helps obscure things like, you know,

01:51:40   what's the average salary of an employee at Facebook?

01:51:44   When all of these people making, here it is,

01:51:46   $28,800 per year to evaluate this.

01:51:51   And there's, you know, I don't know,

01:51:52   hundreds, thousands of these people?

01:51:54   Their low wages aren't bringing down

01:51:58   the company-wide average salary employee at Facebook.

01:52:02   You know, I saw some people in response to this saying,

01:52:06   you know, and that, and they're right.

01:52:10   I'm not disagreeing at all.

01:52:11   That the problem is that these, this shows that,

01:52:14   at least especially here in the US,

01:52:16   that like mental health care isn't part of a lot of,

01:52:21   even if you have health insurance,

01:52:24   getting treated for the emotional problems

01:52:28   that might develop doing a job like this

01:52:30   should be part of your healthcare.

01:52:33   I don't disagree with that all, I agree with it, sure.

01:52:36   But I feel like reading this article

01:52:39   and coming away with the primary take

01:52:42   that hey, something's busted in our,

01:52:44   another aspect of our healthcare system that's busted

01:52:47   is that these people aren't getting the mental healthcare

01:52:49   they need after dealing with this job.

01:52:51   I think you're whistling past the primary problem,

01:52:53   which is that this platform is assessable.

01:52:56   And that they're, you know, I don't know what the answer is.

01:53:01   You know, it obviously disband Facebook and shut it down

01:53:05   isn't going to happen, but let's let everybody

01:53:08   on the planet post whatever they want

01:53:10   and share it to like-minded individuals

01:53:13   is fundamentally a broken idea.

01:53:15   You know, to me, the fundamental idea of Facebook is broken.

01:53:21   Like this is not a good idea, you know, and we're seeing it, you know, and I don't know

01:53:26   what the answer is, but, and I'm not surprised in the least bit that it, that keeping it

01:53:32   moderated to the degree that it is moderated requires tremendous man hours to identify

01:53:39   and flag this stuff.

01:53:41   And even so, they still are obviously struggling with the accuracy rate.

01:53:47   You know, the article goes into the fact that these odd, you know, somebody, people from

01:53:50   Facebook who actually are Facebook employees do these audits.

01:53:55   And you know, the goal is to have a 95% success rate.

01:54:00   In other words, that, you know, if you're having this job as a moderator, 19 out of

01:54:05   20 times your assessment of this is acceptable, it should stay up or this is unacceptable,

01:54:12   should take it down should agree with the person at Facebook. I'm not surprised at

01:54:18   all that this is human driven on both ends, not algorithmically driven. I don't, you

01:54:26   know, AI just isn't there yet to do this. I mean, I'm sure there's some stuff that

01:54:29   AI can flag, just like the way that spam, email spam filters are largely, you know,

01:54:36   almost entirely driven by software. Obviously, some stuff, like in the way that email can

01:54:42   be filtered algorithmically can work, but deciding whether the content of a video is

01:54:47   acceptable requires humans. It just doesn't scale.

01:54:51   Steve: The scale is impossible to understand how much content goes into these platforms,

01:54:56   Facebook, YouTube, all of these every second, not just every day, but every second it's

01:55:01   unmanageable let alone in total.

01:55:03   Dave: You know, and it comes back, you mentioned that YouTube is, to name the other giant in

01:55:09   YouTube is in the midst of a couple of controversies.

01:55:13   But the one that I saw last week was one involving,

01:55:18   effectively, pedophiles who are looking at videos

01:55:22   of mostly young girls.

01:55:25   And the algorithmic angle on this,

01:55:29   'cause I don't think it would take off,

01:55:30   is that once you get into this rabbit hole of these videos,

01:55:34   all of your suggested videos over on the right-hand side

01:55:37   YouTube are more of them. Yeah. And it's awful, awful, awful, awful stuff. But part of it,

01:55:45   you know, part of it is the algorithm, not flagging it, you know, being smart enough,

01:55:50   the algorithm is smart enough to, to stitch these videos together and say, okay, if you

01:55:54   like this, you'll like that. And they're right. Or correct, I should say, you know, in that

01:56:00   these are related videos from the same people. But it's obviously wrong in the moral sense

01:56:05   that these things should ever be allowed to propagate. And quite frankly, it ultimately

01:56:12   gets to the bottom line of unmoderated comments are never end well on the internet. You know,

01:56:22   and it's awful to say it. And I realized that from a philosophical standpoint, and the democratization

01:56:27   of, you know, free speech, in theory, it's great that the internet allows everybody to

01:56:33   have a voice. But in practice, there's enough awful people in the world that having an unmoderated

01:56:39   forum, it never ends well. Well, you also remember the early days of the internet,

01:56:44   I used to run my own PHP Nuke and WordPress and movable type installations, and there would always

01:56:49   be a vulnerability where there were porn links put in or spam links put in or malware links put in,

01:56:54   just on an automated basis. And I would end up destroying the comment system just because I

01:56:58   couldn't keep up that I was getting a trivial amount of comments.

01:57:01   Yeah. I mean, one rule of thumb is that anything that can be abused will be

01:57:06   abused. Yes. You know, and it's inevitable, you know, so letters to the

01:57:11   editor in your local printed newspaper never had spam because there was no

01:57:17   there. And I really doubt that there was much spam ever sent to the newspapers

01:57:21   because you know, it's not going to get printed, right? There's somebody who's

01:57:24   reading these letters and deciding, here's six letters about our recent news coverage

01:57:29   and current events that show different perspectives and interesting points. Here's our six letters

01:57:36   of the day. It's all human curated, so there was never any impetus to abuse it.

01:57:42   Where it has to be delusional, not opportunistic to descend in nonsense.

01:57:46   Right. Whereas we've created an automated system where anybody can fill out this text

01:57:51   area for him and hit a button and whatever you typed in the field is going to show up

01:57:55   at the bottom of this post. Did not take long for that to be to be taken advantage of. What

01:58:03   was the six apart thing? Trackbacks? Yeah. Which weren't comments. It was like, it was

01:58:12   never that they would put the link to what you blogged about it in me. I never supported

01:58:17   it at Daring Fireball along the lines of why I never had comments at Daring Fireball is

01:58:23   I just never wanted to—I saw the problem all along and never—and again, it's like

01:58:28   many things in life, there are trade-offs where if you don't have comments, you don't

01:58:32   get the good comments either, and sometimes the comments are the best thing or somebody

01:58:36   could make a point that it was better than the post itself.

01:58:40   Like Asimko's comments are terrific, but I have no idea what he goes through in order

01:58:45   to maintain that quality.

01:58:46   Right. Well, it's close to a great day, right? Yeah

01:58:49   but track bats were track backs were like an automated way of linking an article or one post to another and saying like oh

01:58:57   Renee posted about the

01:59:00   Galaxy fold and I'm responding to his post and I put a track back in and then somehow there would be a link to my

01:59:07   Post at the bottom of your post because I sent the track back. Well, it didn't take long for those to be abused

01:59:12   They were all scraper. Yeah, like people just scraped your content. We're all in your talk backs, right?

01:59:16   It wasn't, you know, it was, you needed to write like a script to do it because it was

01:59:21   like a little simple API call. It wasn't just typing in a text area and hitting a button,

01:59:26   but it was easily automated and of course it was. Here's my question. What is the point

01:59:32   of YouTube comments?

01:59:34   Well, I guess there's a couple reasons why they do it. It's the same reasons that there've

01:59:39   always been comments on the web. One is to provide an open forum for discussion of the

01:59:43   content. The other one is that when there are comments and people argue in them, you

01:59:46   get way more page views because people come back,

01:59:48   not just to see the content again,

01:59:49   but to see what the discussion around the content is.

01:59:52   And if they get into arguments,

01:59:53   they come back again and again and again.

01:59:56   - Do your videos get a lot of comment?

01:59:59   - They get, yeah, I mean, like they get way more comments

02:00:02   than I've seen in blogs or Twitter or anything a long time

02:00:05   because YouTube has an incredible, and it's good and bad.

02:00:07   Like there are horrible comments that I delete.

02:00:11   Like I don't delete, you know, anyone arguing with me,

02:00:13   but there are like some gross things

02:00:15   that get posted in there, so I get rid of that.

02:00:17   But there are tons of comments on a lot of them, yeah.

02:00:20   - Yeah, that is the one thing about YouTube comments

02:00:22   is I never look, I'm so anti-comment that I don't even look.

02:00:27   Like I watch a fair amount,

02:00:30   well, probably by most people's standards,

02:00:31   I watch very little YouTube,

02:00:33   but I think I watch a fair amount of YouTube.

02:00:36   I never even look at the comments.

02:00:38   I mean, the only time I ever think about it

02:00:39   is at the end of all these videos from serious YouTubers

02:00:44   where they always say, if you like this video,

02:00:46   hit the thumbs up button or whatever,

02:00:48   and subscribe and leave a comment or whatever.

02:00:51   I hear them talking about it at the end of the video

02:00:54   as I'm about to close the tab, but I never actually look.

02:00:57   But when I do, when it occurs to me to look,

02:01:01   I'm often blown away by how many comments there are.

02:01:03   Like there are, holy crap, there's a lot of comments.

02:01:07   Like when you look at somebody's video

02:01:09   and it supposedly has 800,000 views,

02:01:14   and you're like, "Hmm, that's a lot of views."

02:01:16   But then you look at the comments

02:01:18   and you see how many there are.

02:01:19   It's like 1,200 comments or something,

02:01:20   and you're like, "Well, maybe there are 800,000 views

02:01:23   if 1,200 people commented on it."

02:01:25   - The scale of YouTube is,

02:01:27   when I started getting into it,

02:01:29   and then you look at someone like Shane Dawson

02:01:31   who's been making videos for a while,

02:01:32   but now will put up a 145-minute conspiracy theory video

02:01:35   and it gets 20 to 40 million views.

02:01:38   or Desposito I think just hit six billion views.

02:01:41   It just dwarfs I think anything else that's been built

02:01:44   on like a content platform on the internet.

02:01:46   - Yeah, at a technical level it is amazing.

02:01:49   And it's kind of interesting in a historical idea,

02:01:54   I forget what Google paid for YouTube,

02:01:56   but it's one of those, I think it was like a billion dollars

02:02:00   whatever it was, it's like up there with Facebook

02:02:05   buying Instagram, I just called them face gram.

02:02:08   That would be a good way to rebrand.

02:02:10   Facebook buying Instagram for a billion dollars,

02:02:13   or you would have to, the next reunification with Apple

02:02:18   for a couple hundred million dollars

02:02:20   has obviously turned out to be a great deal.

02:02:22   You'd have to, but like what would have happened to YouTube?

02:02:25   It's hard to imagine a future where,

02:02:28   a world where YouTube isn't part of Google, right?

02:02:31   Like who else could have bought them

02:02:33   and scaled them to be where they are?

02:02:37   - Yeah, I mean, there's a possibility

02:02:38   they could have become their own Google,

02:02:39   that just their growth would have been so well managed

02:02:41   that they would have become a company

02:02:42   like a Google or a Facebook.

02:02:44   And that's always like Snap never sold

02:02:46   because they want it to be the next Google

02:02:48   and who knows if that'll maybe not work out for them now.

02:02:52   That's sort of the two choices you have.

02:02:54   Google never sold, they were offered many times,

02:02:56   they never sold either.

02:02:58   - Yeah, I think that that's the most likely

02:03:00   alternate universe is one where YouTube stuck independent

02:03:03   and became one of the big six companies.

02:03:07   'Cause I just can't imagine who else could've done this

02:03:11   or would've tolerated it, right?

02:03:13   Like, you have to have a certain mindset to have a,

02:03:18   we'll let people post whatever video they want.

02:03:22   - Yeah.

02:03:22   - I mean, it's kind of crazy.

02:03:26   - Yeah, no, it really is.

02:03:28   And again, just like Facebook, it's like an impossible problem.

02:03:33   It really is.

02:03:34   And it's, you know, again, it's trade-offs, you know,

02:03:39   there were a lot of problems with the world of print

02:03:43   and, you know, mass media prior to the internet

02:03:47   where a lot of voices were locked out of the conversation.

02:03:52   And part of the reason why our society

02:03:55   was so much less tolerant than it is now,

02:03:58   not that we've, you know,

02:03:59   gotten rid of our problems with intolerance

02:04:03   as evidenced by many of today's headlines.

02:04:06   But the world is certainly inarguably a more tolerant place

02:04:10   than it used to be in the internet

02:04:12   and the providing voices and the allowing of publications

02:04:16   that with other perspectives certainly is a great thing

02:04:21   but it's trade-offs because it's also allowed people

02:04:25   who never would have gotten more of a crowd

02:04:28   than what they could assemble raving at a street corner

02:04:32   with a megaphone to have a very large audience.

02:04:37   - Well, I mean, the problem with YouTube and Facebook,

02:04:39   their strength is their weakness,

02:04:41   so they are incredible recommendation engines.

02:04:44   So for example, if I listen to your post WWDC podcast,

02:04:48   there's no sidebar that recommends Snell's post WWDC podcast,

02:04:52   the connected guys, there's just no way for me

02:04:54   to listen to more of the same thing.

02:04:56   I can listen to more of your stuff,

02:04:57   but not other people's takes.

02:04:58   Same thing if I read an article on Daring Fireball,

02:05:00   I don't also get, you know, Dalrymple's take

02:05:02   and Marco's take, but with YouTube videos

02:05:05   and with Facebook, they see what you want

02:05:07   and they give you more of it.

02:05:08   And that amplifies content.

02:05:09   Like you can get unbelievable.

02:05:11   Suddenly you could look up and your content's got a million,

02:05:13   two million views out of nowhere,

02:05:15   but also you're being shown conspiracy theory videos

02:05:18   and real, real dumb stuff right along with it.

02:05:21   So it amplifies both the good and the bad

02:05:22   to an unbelievable degree.

02:05:24   - Yeah.

02:05:25   I completely agree.

02:05:29   Well, lightning round.

02:05:31   A few other things before we wrap up.

02:05:33   There was this weird bug, well, maybe it's a bug.

02:05:36   I don't know what the hell this story is,

02:05:38   where Google's home speakers,

02:05:42   some point in the last week,

02:05:43   started showing a thing for Apple Music,

02:05:46   and everybody thought it was like,

02:05:49   "Oh, they prematurely launched this before it was ready."

02:05:52   'Cause, you know, I mean, it's nowhere near,

02:05:56   it wouldn't be as surprising as the initial news

02:05:58   that Apple Music is available on Amazon's Echo ones

02:06:03   from earlier this year was.

02:06:04   But now that that's out,

02:06:05   well, if they're gonna do it on Echo,

02:06:07   if they could work out the terms with Google,

02:06:09   presumably they would and will do it on Google too,

02:06:11   but now they're saying it was just a bug.

02:06:14   But it's a very strange bug.

02:06:16   - Yeah, I mean, it works.

02:06:17   It's been available for Android since launch.

02:06:19   It doesn't surprise me.

02:06:20   Apple's whole thing is that they want people

02:06:22   who have family subscriptions

02:06:23   to be able to listen to it everywhere

02:06:24   because it makes it more valuable.

02:06:26   And they realize that there's a whole bunch of diversity

02:06:28   in people's homes and ecosystems.

02:06:30   So I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out.

02:06:32   I don't tend to take Google statements

02:06:33   on face value anyway.

02:06:34   - But then it, you know,

02:06:36   and I don't blame Apple for it, you know.

02:06:41   I think it kind of makes sense with the services push,

02:06:44   you know, and I don't think, I do think,

02:06:47   I think the HomePod is in many ways a misunderstood product

02:06:51   because it isn't meant to compete with $70

02:06:56   Echo and Google dots or whatever they call theirs.

02:07:01   It really is, you know, the best way to understand it is to listen to the way Apple describes

02:07:05   it and it really is supposed to be a nice $350 speaker system.

02:07:10   And the fact that it uses Siri as the interface is an implementation detail.

02:07:15   I mean, yes, you can use it for stuff.

02:07:17   I use it to turn off lights and raise the shades and lower the shades.

02:07:20   I do use it that way, but Apple knew at $350 that it was, even in the best case scenario,

02:07:30   not going to outsell $50 little hockey puck things.

02:07:36   They don't have one.

02:07:37   You've seen this before.

02:07:38   They're very candid.

02:07:39   It really was meant to be you have an empty room.

02:07:41   You want to drop one thing in that you can put almost anywhere and will sound great in

02:07:45   almost anywhere that you're in the room, and that's the problem it solves.

02:07:49   Siri is just the only way you control it because it's a speaker.

02:07:52   I can't help but think though that this bug wasn't really that like somebody, some rogue

02:07:57   individual at Google somehow put the Apple Music icon in there and just mocked it up.

02:08:04   Like, here's what it would look like if we had Apple Music and then accidentally shipped

02:08:08   it. Presumably, it is either a done deal and is coming and unannounced, or they're in the

02:08:14   midst of it far enough along that they're working on it and it was a mistake that it showed.

02:08:20   Yeah, that's what it feels like.

02:08:23   Yeah. And, you know, again, it makes sense that, you know, they want Apple Music everywhere you

02:08:28   listen to music. They're writing iTunes for Tizen, John. This is their service's story.

02:08:35   So that brings me to the upcoming rumored event a month from now, supposedly, this leaked in

02:08:43   advance. And of course, media partners are the leakiest companies. How in the world did Apple's

02:08:50   supposed Monday, March 25th event at the Steve Jobs Theater, how did it leak so far in advance?

02:08:56   Well, because they're talking, if it's true, they are talking to magazines and newspapers

02:09:04   about a subscription Apple News Service, and they are talking to various TV movie type companies

02:09:11   about, I guess, about, you know, some kind of subscription TV service, video service.

02:09:18   - Including which celebrities would be on stage, you know, that's the secret,

02:09:22   that's not gonna stay. - Right. I'm interested in what you think about it. And I'm guessing that if

02:09:31   this is true, that this would be an event where if there are any products to announce, it might be

02:09:38   there's a lot of smoke enough smoke that there's probably a fire to the fact that there's going to be some kind of reef

02:09:44   You know refresh to the air pods lineup

02:09:47   with the

02:09:51   Case that charges. Yeah

02:09:53   I'm just gonna say wirelessly but I

02:09:56   Really inductively ductively because it's not really wireless if it doesn't go over the air, but the wireless charging case also a

02:10:05   The air pods might come in black

02:10:07   Which is interesting and I think would prove very popular

02:10:11   but it's kind of interesting because they went with the we've got one set of earbuds and they're white and you're gonna like it for

02:10:19   a long time while they were wired and used used that for a very

02:10:24   Successful ad campaign they were iconic

02:10:29   I write like what the ads made them, you know emphasize the iconic nature of Apple's white earbuds

02:10:35   You remember those illest, you know, very, very colorful ads where the, you know, very

02:10:41   colorful, vibrant colors of people dancing, listening to music with these white earbuds

02:10:46   and wires coming out and they didn't even need to show the iPod.

02:10:49   Right.

02:10:50   And if anyone was wearing white earbuds, it didn't matter if they were Apple and not

02:10:53   you just assumed that they were listening to an iPod.

02:10:55   Right.

02:10:56   And so, you know, it famously today, you know, there's AirPods are very, very popular product.

02:11:02   They're, you know, subjective memes, you know, people think you're rich if you have AirPods,

02:11:08   but they're so popular now and they're very, again, iconic, you know, and, and for however

02:11:12   much guff that people gave them and thought that they looked goofy when they came out,

02:11:16   which I never understood.

02:11:17   I even wrote about this on During Fireball.

02:11:18   I don't understand why people thought AirPods looked weird because they looked exactly like

02:11:22   Apple's wireless wired AirPods without the wires.

02:11:27   It is, I understand why people felt a little self-conscious.

02:11:33   I did.

02:11:34   I felt self-conscious when I first started wearing AirPods.

02:11:36   I like those big old Bluetooth headsets, right?

02:11:41   Not because I thought I looked goofy, but because this is so weird, right?

02:11:45   After years and years of wearing wired AirPods, it felt so weird to put them in and not have

02:11:51   anything holding them in place.

02:11:53   Like it's, you know, you'd like to think that they designed them not to fall out of your

02:11:58   ears, but it sure looks like they would fall out of your ears.

02:12:01   It turns out for most people with most ears, they don't, which is amazing.

02:12:06   But when you, that's what made me conscious.

02:12:08   Now, maybe not self-conscious, but it just seemed to me like when I first had AirPods,

02:12:12   I felt I never, I was thinking about them all the time.

02:12:15   Cause I'm like, don't fall out, don't fall out, don't fall out.

02:12:18   And then eventually, you know, you get used to it and they become the new normal.

02:12:21   But anyway, switching to black or offering black, I guess they're not going to switch

02:12:24   but offering black as an option takes away a little bit of that iconic nature.

02:12:28   Yeah.

02:12:29   Yeah.

02:12:30   I mean, we are in the age of fashion, especially with wearables.

02:12:32   We saw that with the watch where different casings and different bands.

02:12:36   My only thing because when john pachowski, Mr. will friend john pachowski broke the rumor

02:12:40   about the event.

02:12:41   He said very specifically that he heard there were not going to be air pods and there was

02:12:45   not going to be an iPad mini.

02:12:46   He didn't say there was not going to be the iPad 10.2 inch refresh for the lower end

02:12:51   but it's odd that they would have one, but not the,

02:12:54   like it seems to me that if you're going to show off news,

02:12:56   it'd be great to show it off on a new iPad.

02:12:59   - Right.

02:13:00   - It just seems like a good fit.

02:13:00   And if you're going to show off television,

02:13:02   it'd be good to show that off on new products as well.

02:13:05   And like the daily was the only event I could think of

02:13:07   where Apple actually showed,

02:13:08   and that was a very small, very specific event.

02:13:12   But just a services event would be something very different.

02:13:15   And they have so much

02:13:16   expectational debt around any Apple event.

02:13:19   We're used to like marches where we saw the first MacBook where we they had a launch for the Apple watch

02:13:24   They'll the launch for the iPhone SE the 9.7 inch iPad

02:13:28   There's just so many iconic products that have come out in March

02:13:30   Never mind going back a few years to like the eye the iPad itself

02:13:35   That I think people will just assume there's gonna be a lot of that stuff there and it'll be hard for them to just not

02:13:40   Do hardware at the show?

02:13:43   Yeah, but what that hardware will be I don't know I think you know a new regular iPad would be interesting and it would be

02:13:51   Yeah, you know cuz I get last year's was about a year ago. So yeah, that's interesting to think that the

02:13:57   Entry model iPad is on an annual refresh rate that they're not

02:14:02   Letting that sit. That's just the

02:14:05   $350 one we don't you know our heart and soul is only in the iPad pros the expensive ones

02:14:11   With the latest and greatest technology would be interesting if you know and who knows, you know, I'm for education

02:14:16   I mean, this is when you want to sell the education iPad, right?

02:14:19   Air pods would be interesting

02:14:22   presumably I I can't help but think that if they are going to unveil air pods which have a

02:14:27   Wireless charging case that they would also finally have

02:14:32   Dare I say it the air power?

02:14:36   Yeah

02:14:38   I knew the new and functional air power. I can't help it. You know, I just don't see how they talk about

02:14:43   Wireless even if they charge on a standard Qi charger

02:14:47   Which I know I'm not sure that the air pods case will like if it charges wirelessly it might charge wirelessly only with the air

02:14:55   Power, I don't think we have an answer to that

02:14:57   Well, the rumor is that the this year's iPhone is gonna do bilateral inductive charging

02:15:02   Which is what the Samsung phone and I forget I think the Huawei already do that where you turn them upside down and it's terrible

02:15:07   It's terrible for phones. It's like 1% after 15 minutes. It shuts off but like with the Galaxy buds

02:15:13   They've shown this with having small like air pods just putting on the back of your phone

02:15:17   It's a realistic charging mechanism and that means it would have to be very similar to what Apple what to what she is already doing

02:15:23   on my phone

02:15:24   Well, who knows but I you know, that might be a product that ships in this

02:15:28   March event that would be and you watch bands could get those every March, right? Right, right, and I don't want to wait till June

02:15:36   on my presumption that if there's a March 25th Apple event, the next time we hear from

02:15:42   Apple will be the WWDC keynote in early June. Yeah. So I would guess the spring assortment

02:15:49   of watch straps will be, would be unveiled at this event. I don't know if it would

02:15:53   get staged.

02:15:54   Well, like a press release too. I mean, yeah, that's right. Cause sometimes they just

02:15:56   a press release or you see them on apple.com around the same time.

02:15:59   Right. I hope they bring back the nylon straps. Have I said this to you before? God, I'm

02:16:04   Yeah, I still can't believe that they let that they that they're all gone

02:16:08   I mean, it's really odd. Somebody just wrote to me some reader just wrote to me and was like

02:16:12   Just professing their love for the nylon watch straps and

02:16:18   Asking me if I had any insight into where they went and I said no none and they're my favorite, too

02:16:23   and

02:16:25   I can only presume that they just weren't selling that well because if they were selling

02:16:30   Great. Why in the world would they have taken them off the market?

02:16:33   And I mean everyone seems to like just so many people just wear the sport band and the sport loop are incredibly popular

02:16:39   So it could just be that there was no room in between them

02:16:42   Yeah, maybe anymore, but I don't like the sport loop for multiple reasons. I don't like the double

02:16:47   The doubling on the one side and I'm just yeah, not really a velcro person. I people wear them like sweatpants

02:16:53   They're like, no, I like the sweatpants watch. No, I know I'm you know, but I think that's part of even without even

02:16:59   touching the world of third-party Apple watch straps, which is huge, you know, just within

02:17:04   staying within the Apple branded ones. I really do think it's fundamental to the success of the

02:17:11   platform that you've got this variety of looks and feels, you know, it's such an intimate,

02:17:19   a watch is such an intimate thing and because it really is touching your skin all the time.

02:17:25   having a strap that you think both feels good, fits right, and looks cool is super,

02:17:30   super important. And having a variety is the only way to do that. But my favorite is the nylon strap.

02:17:37   Justin: Yeah. Yeah. No, I wish it comes back to you.

02:17:41   Pete: Yeah, I don't know. But I guess that's coming. Anything else? I don't expect any Mac hardware.

02:17:46   Justin; It feels like iMac spec bumps should be in another press release at some point.

02:17:52   Yeah, if not do anything radical they should just drop the yeah, the coffee lake and I forget what the Xeon is on now

02:17:58   All right, but I don't really think I don't see how they can do anything with the display. They're already at

02:18:03   5k they already have

02:18:05   The high dynamic range whatever you call it

02:18:08   Yeah, the DCI p3 right? They already have that, you know, so it's

02:18:13   If they're not going to change the size, I don't you know, I don't know what else there is, you know

02:18:19   It's truly, you know, what I expect the next iMacs to be is a true speed bump where they're just hair

02:18:25   They look exactly the same, but they're faster

02:18:27   Eventually, we all want that redesign where it's similar to what they're rumoring for the pro display where it's like a 6k

02:18:32   Mini LED panel with face ID buried in it. All right, and then you know

02:18:37   Everyone will refresh at that point, but it's not like it's ready yet, right?

02:18:41   Yeah, and I think I'm guessing that they'll do that standalone display first

02:18:46   But yeah, and I you know, I don't think the Mac Pro is coming at a March media event

02:18:51   and even even putting aside the

02:18:53   German rumor from last week that that it might be coming at WWDC

02:18:58   Which I think is crazy because I think if it doesn't come at WWDC

02:19:01   We've got to start questioning what the hell is going on with with that

02:19:04   If I was Apple like just given some of the delays

02:19:06   I I would be like I know a lot of it would love them just to show it off and say it's coming in December like

02:19:11   They did with the iMac Pro two years ago, but just with the delays

02:19:15   I think they should be conservative in what they tease for the next little while. Well, yeah, but it's I mean

02:19:22   I guess if they're not going to show it at WWDC

02:19:25   They'll just leak they have to if they're not going to show it at WWDC

02:19:29   That would be something they would have to leak to somebody and get the word out

02:19:33   Because if there's no word at all about the Mac Pro before the keynote

02:19:38   there's going to be thousands and thousands of developers who are watching us so that watching the

02:19:45   WWDC keynote with yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shut up about that. Give me the macbook. Give me the macbook

02:19:49   Give me that and then it's like Tim Cook says thanks. Have a great week

02:19:53   WWDC people are gonna be what?

02:19:56   Well, I mean there's so many problems with the expectations here too

02:20:00   Because when when Apple said modular everyone in their own mind interpreted that differently some people thinking it's a new cheese grater

02:20:06   Some people thinking that is something you can just plug cards into

02:20:08   It was a rumor and I'm blanking on where it was where it's gonna be

02:20:11   almost like a red camera where you'll have a brain module like a Mac Mini or maybe able to stack other Lego bricks on it and

02:20:17   Those are all fundamentally different products, right? It's it doesn't yeah, it's

02:20:22   It's one of those words that everybody yeah, you're right

02:20:26   Everybody takes the word modular and they think modular in the way. I want it to be much. Yes

02:20:30   Well, and I was saying to this I think it was with Glenn on the last episode where there's an awful lot of people

02:20:41   who when a year ago, Pansarino got the,

02:20:46   here's our update on Mac Pro, it's not a 2018 thing.

02:20:52   But we, and gave him the interesting look

02:20:56   at the pro musicians and video editors

02:21:01   that Apple's hired full time to work

02:21:03   hand in hand with the teams making their pro editing software

02:21:08   for Final Cut Pro X and Logic.

02:21:13   Really, really interesting story of the pros,

02:21:17   actual pros working hand in hand with the development team

02:21:20   and presumably also helping to inform the design

02:21:23   of the pro hardware.

02:21:24   But the thing that I know a lot of people,

02:21:29   I've heard this from people,

02:21:30   is that there are a lot of people who given the,

02:21:36   I don't think the back goal is too strong a word for the trashcan Mac Pro, or at least the mistake

02:21:41   that the trashcan Mac Pro turned out to be. There's an awful lot of people who were like,

02:21:46   "Just make a big tower with lots of space in it. How hard can it be? There's 10,000 companies doing

02:21:53   that for Windows and just do that. Just make a big tower with lots of space." And I think that when

02:21:59   Apple was like, "Hey, this is going to take us into 2019," there's a lot of people who were worried

02:22:05   about the Mac Pro because they're like, well, if they were just going to make, if they were

02:22:09   going to do what I want them to do, which is just make a big tower, they'd be done.

02:22:12   Modern cheese grater. Yeah.

02:22:13   Right. They'd be done already. And so therefore they're doing something else and whatever else

02:22:18   they're doing, it's going to be bad. And I don't think I, I'm just intrigued, honestly. I'm,

02:22:25   you know, cause I'm probably not in the market for the Mac Pro. I'd be surprised if I were,

02:22:31   but I'm sure curious what it is they've come up with that isn't just a big tower.

02:22:37   Anyway though, I don't think that's a March thing while we're speculating on the March event. I

02:22:43   think it's a WWDC thing. And I also, I don't expect MacBook Pros yet. I don't think that

02:22:50   they would announce them at this event anyway, but yeah. Agreed. And then our poor old 12 inch Mac

02:22:57   book is desperately in need of a revision, but I don't.

02:23:01   And that has been a March thing, but would it be again is the question.

02:23:05   Right.

02:23:05   I think it shifted to WWDC two years ago.

02:23:07   Yeah. And if it's just a speed bump, maybe, but then what do they do? Do they show it?

02:23:11   How do you show it? Is it just a press release? I don't know. I mean, it's obviously overdue

02:23:16   and it's obviously a product that would sure go great with the much rumored move to in-house

02:23:24   ARM chips, but that's obviously not just going to drop at the March event.

02:23:27   Yeah. Yeah. Everyone wants that computer with an ARM chip and again, face ID.

02:23:31   Everyone's got their mind set on that, honey.

02:23:34   Yeah. And then, so the other thing that Gurman teased was a, well, no, it wasn't Gurman. It was

02:23:41   Ming-Chi Kuo, who had the idea of a 16 or 16 and a half inch MacBook Pro with an all new design,

02:23:50   Which leads me to my last topic, which is—this popped into my radar last night on Twitter,

02:23:55   where Joanna Stern was tweeting with somebody on Twitter, but she, as an owner of a weeks-old new

02:24:02   MacBook Air, was already having trouble with the keyboard, with letters getting stuck. And I forget

02:24:07   who she was tweeting with. I'll put a link in the show notes, I swear. But then, you know, and it

02:24:12   And it just prompted a depressingly large number of people with the latest revision

02:24:20   of these keyboards with the membrane underneath them, who are saying, "Yeah, my E key gets

02:24:24   stuck," or "Blank gets stuck," "Mine's my spacebar."

02:24:28   Apple has mine because the spacebar was stuck, et cetera, et cetera.

02:24:34   So I can't help but think, as much as I like the new MacBook Pro in my testing and I didn't

02:24:39   have any problem with the keys. It sure seems like that this, whatever they've done for

02:24:47   the third generation has not solved the problem. And at this point, I think we're looking

02:24:51   at this is truly unacceptable.

02:24:53   Yeah, I've had the same like I've gone through, I forget how many now seven of them

02:24:57   and I've had one key on one of them, the control key give me problems, but I just popped

02:25:02   it off and cleaned it and it was fine. And I had a key fail on my 2014 MacBook Pro and

02:25:08   to take that in and they replaced it like they would do with a modern one.

02:25:11   But for me it's the same thing.

02:25:13   I love the new keyboard.

02:25:14   I like it way better than the old one, but the fact that so many people don't like it,

02:25:17   to me when you have one manufacturer, it's different if you're like Windows and Dell

02:25:20   and HP and everybody makes Lenovo.

02:25:22   They all have different computers because you can have your choice.

02:25:25   If you don't like one keyboard, buy another manufacturer.

02:25:26   It's not a problem.

02:25:27   But Apple is the only one who makes Mac OS laptops, so they can't afford to have anything

02:25:33   that's divisive, whether it's mechanically or just tactically divisive.

02:25:38   And I'll echo everybody who says, "Just put the damn iMac keyboard into the MacBook

02:25:43   and call it a day."

02:25:44   That was my takeaway.

02:25:46   And I've been using it a lot.

02:25:48   I've settled on my favorite iPad keyboard setup.

02:25:51   My favorite iPad keyboard setup is the Apple Magic keyboard in the Studio Neat Canopy folding

02:25:59   case, which I almost never even fold up.

02:26:01   I just leave it open and it's just a place to put it.

02:26:05   And I, for my use, because I don't do too much writing on the iPad and I like to hold

02:26:10   the iPad naked without a heavy case on it so that the Apple keyboard cover is sort of

02:26:16   ruled out.

02:26:17   And I, the mag, you know, it's not hard to get it off the magnet, but it's not easy as

02:26:23   opposed to just using this canopy where it just doesn't snap in or anything.

02:26:27   You just lift it in, lift it out, lift it in, lift it out.

02:26:29   And it's a great keyboard.

02:26:30   is an amazing keyboard. Yep. It's terrific. It is super super it is. I'm blown away at

02:26:36   how much nicer a keyboard it is than the old magic keyboard the one that had like the took

02:26:40   double A batteries and yeah, on the side like it's just better than both the old MacBook

02:26:45   Pro and the new MacBook. It's really it and it could be you know, you can see how it this

02:26:50   could be a laptop keyboard. Yeah. Oh my god. So they have that it's even worse that they

02:26:56   they have this amazing keyboard that the company is making and they're not using it. But at

02:27:01   this point, the thought that occurred to me last night on Twitter after reading this thread

02:27:06   on Twitter and seeing that there's enough—nobody ever complained about stuck keys. I'm not

02:27:11   saying that nobody's keys got stuck on older MacBooks. It happens. You know, keyboards

02:27:16   break.

02:27:17   Steve McLaughlin Yeah, it happened to me.

02:27:18   Dave Asprey But there's clearly, clearly a problem with

02:27:20   this butterfly design that the third generation hasn't solved where it's way more prevalent

02:27:24   than it should be, and they're just not dependable.

02:27:27   And it's a part of the MacBook that has to be dependable.

02:27:30   Like, nobody is buying a MacBook

02:27:33   who doesn't need the keyboard to be reliable.

02:27:36   It's just fundamental to the product.

02:27:39   And the thought that occurred to me

02:27:41   is that this, to me, is where Apple misses Steve Jobs.

02:27:46   I think, and again, it's dangerous territory going into the,

02:27:50   it would be different if Steve Jobs were still there.

02:27:53   But I'm more comfortable about it lately because I really feel like we've got enough distance

02:27:58   from when he died, that it's no longer like an open wound.

02:28:04   But the conventional wisdom seems to be Apple is going to miss Steve Jobs or is never going

02:28:09   to be the same because Steve Jobs was the only person who could lead them to create

02:28:14   amazing new products.

02:28:18   You don't get things like the iPod and the iPhone

02:28:21   and the iPad without Steve Jobs.

02:28:23   And that's what Apple's all about.

02:28:26   And I don't think that's true.

02:28:27   And I feel like the watch is proof of that.

02:28:32   AirPods are proof of that.

02:28:33   They've had new products that are terrific

02:28:37   in the last few years.

02:28:39   To me, where I think they miss Steve Jobs

02:28:44   isn't in the creation of great new things,

02:28:46   it's in addressing problems.

02:28:49   Among the dozens of ways

02:28:53   that he was a terrific CEO of Apple,

02:28:57   I feel like what he did when things went wrong

02:29:00   and his ability to accept it and embrace it

02:29:05   and say, "Yes, this is terrible, we need to fix it."

02:29:08   Famously, there was a story about MobileMe when it launched.

02:29:14   And he held a town hall meeting,

02:29:17   I forget how long after it launched,

02:29:19   but the gist of it was, you know,

02:29:20   there's maybe 150 people could fit in there.

02:29:22   There's a hundred people in that Apple town hall.

02:29:25   And he said, he's up on stage and he says,

02:29:28   let's talk about MobileMe.

02:29:29   What is MobileMe supposed to do?

02:29:31   And I don't know, one or two people in the audience

02:29:34   would give their answer.

02:29:36   And somebody gave an answer that was sufficient.

02:29:38   You know, like, yes, here's a brief description

02:29:40   of what MobileMe is supposed to be and do.

02:29:42   and he goes, "Well, why the hell doesn't it do that?"

02:29:45   - Yeah.

02:29:46   - And, you know, intervening, you know,

02:29:50   the Apple's got, in my opinion,

02:29:52   Apple has gotten its act together on iCloud.

02:29:55   And I know that, you know, all of a sudden

02:29:58   there's a couple hundred people listening to his podcasts

02:30:00   who are like, "Well, my contacts still don't sing."

02:30:02   I'm not saying it's perfect,

02:30:03   but it's really a lot different than it was,

02:30:06   certainly from the MobileMe era, in terms of reliability.

02:30:08   - One of the things that, like,

02:30:09   one of the things I think he doesn't get enough credit for

02:30:11   is that he was an incredibly strong auteur.

02:30:13   He was very opinionated.

02:30:14   But when you look at like, he did not want iTunes on Windows

02:30:17   but he trusted his team and let them do it.

02:30:19   Threatening them if it didn't work.

02:30:21   Same with iPad mini, did not want an iPad mini,

02:30:23   trusted his team, said it's your fault if you blow it.

02:30:25   Let them do it.

02:30:26   He loved that G4 Cube.

02:30:28   It was unacceptable, so he canceled that thing.

02:30:30   Like it did not last on the market for five years,

02:30:33   you know, just collecting dust.

02:30:35   He killed that thing.

02:30:37   And that's the part of it I think is absolutely true.

02:30:39   Like you can just imagine him picking up that keyboard

02:30:42   and throwing it across the lab

02:30:44   and saying, why is it still getting stuck?

02:30:45   This is unacceptable, fix this,

02:30:47   not next year, two years, whatever the roadmap is,

02:30:49   fix this today.

02:30:50   - There's another story.

02:30:51   It was Adam Leschinsky, who I think still writes at Fortune,

02:30:55   but he had a book out a couple of years ago.

02:30:58   Unfortunately, I will get it in the show notes.

02:31:01   But one of the stories in his book was about,

02:31:08   Apparently every time I guess there's not that many VPs at Apple, but every time somebody would get promoted to VP

02:31:13   Steve Jobs had a spiel that he would give them and it was like the parable of the janitor and the vice president and

02:31:22   this I'll paraphrase here, but I'll put a link where the

02:31:27   passage from his book is and you can read it but just if it is

02:31:30   You're getting promoted to a vice president you meet with Steve Jobs and he says look

02:31:36   Here's what the difference between a janitor and a vice president. Let's say I'm here in my office

02:31:41   and I notice my trash hasn't been getting emptied and my waste basket is now overflowing. And I go

02:31:47   to the janitor who's supposed to be emptying my waste bucket every day and I say, "Hey,

02:31:52   I noticed my trash isn't getting emptied. What's going on?" And the janitor might say, "Well,

02:31:58   the locks were changed on your office door and I don't have a key anymore so I couldn't get in."

02:32:04   That's a reasonable explanation and from the janitor, it's a legitimate explanation

02:32:09   for why my trash isn't getting emptied and we'll have to figure out something, get

02:32:14   the guy a new key or whatever.

02:32:16   He goes, "When you're vice president, you no longer get excuses.

02:32:21   There is no excuse.

02:32:22   You need to empty the trash and if you can't get in, you need to figure it out and fix

02:32:27   it."

02:32:28   Which in turn reminds me of the story of Scott Forstall in the iPhone team when the one—at

02:32:33   point during the development—remember the story where during the original development

02:32:37   of the iPhone, somebody, some woman on the team, there was an argument, tempers were

02:32:42   flaring, and she slammed the door to her office, and it broke the lock or the latch, and she

02:32:47   couldn't get out.

02:32:48   And did you ever hear this story?

02:32:51   I think it was in Ken Kishenda's book.

02:32:54   Oh, maybe then, yeah.

02:32:57   And they're on a deadline, and she's locked in there, and they've got work to do.

02:33:03   And so, first of all, somebody had a baseball bat and first of all, just took a baseball

02:33:06   bat and just bashed her door in to get her out.

02:33:09   Yeah. Right. But they weren't going to wait. It's like, you know what I mean? But it's

02:33:12   almost like, it's like forestall almost exemplified what Jobs is talking about and that, you know,

02:33:19   they needed her to be, you know, they needed her that night to do work and she locked in

02:33:23   a room and not going to wait for like building services to come just take a baseball bat

02:33:27   and tell her to stand away from the door and bash the doorknob in. Yeah. Anyway, my thinking

02:33:33   on that is that there's some VP who's ultimately responsible for this keyboard. And to me,

02:33:39   the time for excuses is over. And I again, I am not presumptive enough to say call for

02:33:46   somebody to be fired. I mean, it's, you know, I but I and I, so I don't take this lightly.

02:33:53   But to me, this is to the point where maybe somebody should be fired. Like, I think it's

02:33:57   that serious? And where does the buck stop? And my fear is that in the post Steve Jobs

02:34:05   Apple, this keyboard, MacBook keyboard thing is it off on its own. And the people who are

02:34:15   deciding how to fix it and what to do going forward are the same people who designed it

02:34:20   in the and approved it in the first place.

02:34:22   Well, they have fired people in the recent past for stuff like, like not for the keyboard,

02:34:29   but for issues that involve products being late and not being delivered on time or problems

02:34:33   with the products.

02:34:34   Like some of the people who were in charge of those two years ago, three years ago, were

02:34:37   no longer there.

02:34:38   They're just, it's just not very public.

02:34:41   So I'm, this is just particularly bewildering because it's been so like the sentiment around

02:34:46   it is so toxic.

02:34:48   You just have all these like people like Joanna, people like Casey Neistat, people who get

02:34:51   get a ton of attention. Casey Johnston railing on it all the time and nothing, you know,

02:34:56   and they did that, you know, maybe you can see, Oh, we're going to fix it with a membrane,

02:34:59   but it just, it's, it's, it doesn't get fixed. And that is not really like, to your point,

02:35:04   that's not really how things got done. It's, it's doing reputational harm to the MacBook

02:35:09   brand. And it is, it's truly this, in my opinion, the second most important brand at the company

02:35:16   behind the phone. I mean, you can argue it would be a fine argument to make to say iPad

02:35:21   is more important than MacBook, but it's at least close. But in terms of, you know, units

02:35:26   that they sell a lot more iPads, but in terms of revenue, they sell more MacBooks.

02:35:30   Like they didn't leave that antenna busted for three years on the iPhone four that was fixed by

02:35:35   the time it was on Verizon. Right? It was Yeah, it didn't even take a year. Yeah, it was already

02:35:40   fixed in the in the iPhone six, like, you know, they fixed this structural integrity of that by

02:35:45   iPhone 6s, you know, all these things fixed.

02:35:49   Right.

02:35:50   It's, I feel like that revision last summer with the, okay, here's our third generation,

02:35:58   we've added a membrane.

02:36:00   Officially, they're only saying that the membrane makes it quieter.

02:36:03   Yeah.

02:36:04   Honestly, I mean, that was for legal reasons.

02:36:07   Right.

02:36:08   Well, I think for many reasons, but I think legal among them.

02:36:12   but unofficially was also intended to prevent, what do you call it? Egress? Prevent particles

02:36:18   from getting in there and causing problems, causing keys to get stuck or malfunction.

02:36:23   I guess a lot of people are having a problem with the space bar where it doesn't get

02:36:26   stuck but they hit the space bar and you get two spaces instead of one, which I guess isn't

02:36:32   as bad a problem, but again, it's awful. You just expect, I've been using, I've

02:36:37   a MacBook Pro here that it's a 2014 that I've used thousands of times since 2014.

02:36:46   To the best of my knowledge, I've never once hit the space bar and had two spaces appear.

02:36:52   Seriously, how many times have I used the space? Have I typed a space on this MacBook

02:36:57   Pro? It's like one of those job interview puzzles like, "Hmm, what's a good estimate?"

02:37:05   If I write a couple thousand words a day, every word is separated by a space, right?

02:37:13   So thousands of words, thousands of days, right? Easily millions, right? It sounds ridiculous.

02:37:22   You think, well, you've typed millions of spaces? But if I type thousands of words a

02:37:26   day over several thousand days, you know, and this has been almost four and a half years,

02:37:32   I don't think it's ridiculous to think I've typed a million or two spaces with

02:37:37   this keyboard.

02:37:39   To my knowledge, I can't recall one time, not even one in a million, where I've gotten

02:37:43   two spaces.

02:37:44   That's how—and that's not crazy.

02:37:46   It's not like, "Oh, only Apple made keyboards where you hit the space a million times in

02:37:50   a row and get one space."

02:37:52   I mean, that's pretty common on quality laptops from any brand.

02:37:55   I really think that this is causing irreparable—not irreparable, but serious reputational harm

02:38:02   MacBook brand that will outlast the keyboards. Like even they're at the point now where they

02:38:06   can fix it and it's still going to be in people's minds that MacBooks aren't don't have reliable

02:38:11   keyboards. Yeah, they'll wonder every time they buy one where there's going to be reliable or not,

02:38:15   which is the last thing you want them wondering. Right. And on the other side of the same surface,

02:38:21   the track pads are so amazingly good. Like, yes, it's, you know, the new trackpad that doesn't use

02:38:29   the diving board mechanism, you know, where it's all virtual clicking and it feels like

02:38:34   real clicking and it's equally clickable at the top and the bottom and there made it nice and big.

02:38:39   You know, that's right in the MacBook brand, you know, best trackpads in the industry. That's part

02:38:47   of the MacBook brand best keyboards in the industry should be too. And instead, it's arguably

02:38:52   the worst keyboards in the industry. I think it's got to happen. It's hard to believe the two and

02:38:58   - The two things came from the same engineering division.

02:39:00   - And I can't help but think,

02:39:02   it's almost like Apple's in a bad spot where,

02:39:05   like the MacBook Airs just came out, you know,

02:39:08   and they're not, you know,

02:39:10   they can either stick with this keyboard design

02:39:14   and have all the, you know,

02:39:16   suffer the continuing degradation of the brand

02:39:19   and the confidence people have in these products,

02:39:21   or they can fix it with a new keyboard design,

02:39:24   which means they're upgrading, updating the hardware,

02:39:27   sooner than they had expected to, you know, and at a cost to the company, you know, that

02:39:33   they expect to get X number of years out of a design.

02:39:36   Yeah.

02:39:37   Yeah, no, and it's, it seems like we'll see with this, so the 16 inch MacBook Pro is supposed

02:39:45   to be sort of like a 17 inch screen put into a 15 inch chassis, sort of like what we had

02:39:50   with the iPhone and the iPad Pro and a complete redesign. So this, it's, it's kind of weird.

02:39:56   We didn't see this with the MacBook Air,

02:39:58   but that looks like it's using the exact same process

02:40:01   as the previous ones.

02:40:02   If this is a new design and they stick

02:40:04   with the same keyboard, it's gonna be flabbergasting.

02:40:07   - What do you think?

02:40:08   So do you think if it's true that they're coming out

02:40:10   with a 16 or whatever inch MacBook Pro,

02:40:15   do you think it's like effectively the 15 inch footprint

02:40:19   but with more of an edge to edge display?

02:40:20   Not a return of the lunch tray 17 inch footprint?

02:40:25   the destroyer, the battleship.

02:40:27   - Which again, my wife was a huge fan of.

02:40:30   She read this rumor.

02:40:31   I didn't even tell her

02:40:32   'cause I didn't wanna get her hopes up

02:40:33   and somehow she found it on her own.

02:40:35   I think a friend of the show, Paul Kefasis,

02:40:37   told her in a text message

02:40:38   and now she's all hepped up about it.

02:40:40   But I told her, I was like,

02:40:41   "I don't think it's gonna be that."

02:40:44   I mean, you can get the 15-inch MacBook

02:40:46   and it'll have a bigger display,

02:40:47   but I don't think you're getting the big iMac,

02:40:51   17-inch iMac in a laptop that we had before.

02:40:55   I used to joke, where's my iMac, my iMacbook Pro?

02:41:00   But really, there's so many technologies

02:41:02   that Apple hasn't brought down to the MacBook line,

02:41:04   including the new design language, which

02:41:06   is the iPhone 10, and this year's-- sorry,

02:41:08   last year's iPad Pro, that it's sort of really easy

02:41:10   to see where those cues would make sense on a MacBook Pro.

02:41:14   And we look at the LG Gram.

02:41:17   The LG Gram is a 17-inch laptop that

02:41:18   looks like something from the future,

02:41:20   and that's where the industry is moving.

02:41:22   Yeah, I don't know.

02:41:23   And then Jackie Chang, who's now working,

02:41:27   she used to be at Ars Technica,

02:41:28   then she was at Wirecutter,

02:41:30   and now she's at, I forget which radio station,

02:41:33   she's at a classical radio station in New York

02:41:35   as their editorial director.

02:41:36   Sorry, Jackie, I don't remember the radio station.

02:41:39   But she mentioned that at her new job,

02:41:42   they got her a new 13-inch MacBook Air

02:41:45   that she's, you know, work provided, so she's using it.

02:41:47   But like, for her, it's replacing

02:41:50   like a 2013 MacBook Air that she owned.

02:41:53   And that the only real thing she notices that's better is the retina display, which is obvious.

02:41:57   And it's a big, you know, it's a big thing to put an asterisk next to I mean, it's obviously

02:42:00   a nicer display.

02:42:02   But like I tweeted to her, I was like, and conversely, like in 2013, when you got a MacBook

02:42:07   Air, if you were replacing a then five year old 2008 MacBook of some sort, you're like

02:42:13   amazed in a lot of ways.

02:42:16   Like there's like, wow, this is so much faster.

02:42:17   And it's so much thinner, and it's so much lighter, and the display is better and the

02:42:21   trackpad is better, you know.

02:42:22   the list goes on and on. There's a certain lack of wow in a new MacBook today compared

02:42:32   to five years ago.

02:42:33   And that MacBook Air, not the first one. The second one, it redefined all laptops for half

02:42:40   a decade. They became the model for the Ultrabooks. And no one else has done that yet. It's

02:42:44   not just an Apple thing. There are very advanced laptops that are very nice. There are gaming

02:42:49   laptops that have like all sorts of neon keys, but there's nothing that's been industry transformative.

02:42:53   I think that's again similar to like, because people like to make things about Apple, but

02:42:57   when you look at the phone market, the same things are true for Apple that are for Samsung

02:43:00   and Huawei and everybody. We've just reached a point where this stuff has been home. It's

02:43:05   like the old Excel thing. Excel looks like Lotus because that's what the job it has to

02:43:09   do. And we've reached that point where we've chiseled away almost everything unnecessary

02:43:14   and you can play around with it. You can give it fancy casings and light ups and things

02:43:17   like that, but they're just so good at doing that job. Unless someone has a really new

02:43:21   way, like the MacBook Air was a really new way of making these computers, unibody was

02:43:26   a huge shift. It's hard to see what that next huge leap forward is unless it is something

02:43:30   like the iPad Pro or the Surface or these transformables.

02:43:34   Dave Asprey Yeah. I don't know. So anyway, bottom line,

02:43:38   I don't expect MacBooks at March, but maybe. I don't know. Probably not pros, but maybe

02:43:45   an updated 12-inch but nothing, I don't expect, radical. And the keyboard saga will go on.

02:43:53   Yeah, yeah.

02:43:54   Anything else you wanted to talk about before we cut off for the week?

02:43:58   No, I mean, I think we hit all the big nails on there.

02:44:02   Let me ask you this. I'm so curious about you and your continued drive into being a YouTuber. And

02:44:08   like I said, I'm really enjoying it. I think, you know, it's just that you want to get better

02:44:13   at something do it like yeah you've always been good at the videos but since you've like doubled

02:44:19   down on vector and the the your youtube channel when did you when did that start was that like

02:44:25   a year ago almost literally a year ago the year it was the home pod review was my first video

02:44:30   it's you've gotten so much better you know like your recent videos all right i mean i've been

02:44:37   into them and i've enjoyed i enjoyed your home pod review you know it's not like you were bad

02:44:40   and now you're good, but you've clearly gotten a style down to the show.

02:44:45   And I'm just curious how long, how much time that consumes of your week?

02:44:53   **

02:44:53   Almost all my time right now because I have this weird affliction where when I blogged

02:44:59   I had to blog continuously and when I made podcasts I wanted to do it daily and now I'm

02:45:03   trying to do YouTube videos daily and they take so much more time than a podcast because

02:45:09   of a lot of the editing and b-roll and you have to be visual and audio and all these

02:45:13   things but it feels like it's the only way to get good to me.

02:45:17   I'm not good at being good otherwise.

02:45:19   I learn everything by doing it.

02:45:22   So I wake up and I film a video and I spend most of the rest of the day editing it and

02:45:26   then I post it the next morning or in the evening if it's more urgent.

02:45:30   And what's your current setup?

02:45:33   How are you reading the script?

02:45:34   Do you have a teleprompter type thing?

02:45:36   Like do you use an iPad?

02:45:39   I didn't initially and then people told me I spoke way too quickly.

02:45:43   And so I got Joe Chaplinsky, a friend of the show, he does podcasts.

02:45:49   He's in Whiskus' band.

02:45:51   amazing they do a teleprompter plus plus app and I set it like a speed that was uncomfortably

02:45:55   slow for me so I would force myself to slow down and it's working and I have a combination

02:46:02   of things in there and notes and bullet points that I want to make sure I hit.

02:46:06   And what's that an iPad app?

02:46:08   Yeah it's an iPad app and you can run it off your iPhone so I can I sometimes I often have

02:46:11   a friend with me helping me do all do everything but I can put it next to my next to me on

02:46:16   when I'm reading and then just go up and down on the iPhone and that'll adjust the iPad.

02:46:21   And what camera are you using?

02:46:22   I'm using the Panasonic GH5 just because it was well regarded. I know a lot of people like

02:46:28   the Sony's, but I like the fact that I can turn it around and see myself in the viewfinder.

02:46:33   Well, I'm really enjoying it and I'm not surprised in the least

02:46:38   find out that it's taking you all day every day to do it because it really does show.

02:46:45   Thank you. That is the thing. That's one of the other things I've heard is that in the growth of this and I hate the word

02:46:50   Influencer that's whole influence everything. But yeah, there's obviously a lot of people who you know who are

02:46:55   and I

02:46:57   As an independent content producer myself I

02:47:01   the YouTube thing is

02:47:04   Farfield from what I've done or a field maybe not far afield. Yeah, but I'm impressed

02:47:12   By the success people are having and I'm not surprised because you know TV was so popular, you know in the last millennium

02:47:19   Our century it's no surprise that these this, you know making these little eight minute ish

02:47:25   things in this century has proven to be a

02:47:28   million million viewer

02:47:31   popular for a lot of people

02:47:34   But I keep reading that it it is super super consuming because the way you know

02:47:41   the algorithm works, the algorithms work at YouTube, getting popular is great, but to

02:47:50   stay popular, you really need to keep pumping out the videos. The quality demands don't

02:47:57   go down in terms of tightness of editing and camera work, et cetera, et cetera.

02:48:03   I mean, that's true to some extent. The interesting thing for me is if you look at

02:48:08   Like Shane Dawson, who's hugely popular, or CGP Grey, mutual friend, they don't release

02:48:13   a lot of videos, but when they do, they're like absolute events, and they get just ungodly

02:48:19   amounts of attention.

02:48:21   For me, it's just that I'm still not good enough at filming that I can capture the story

02:48:26   in the camera, so I do a lot of work in the edit, which means I can't hand it off to anybody

02:48:31   else to do for me.

02:48:32   And I'm not sure I would anyway.

02:48:34   I've had podcasts edited for a long time.

02:48:35   Jim Metzendorf does a great job with that for me.

02:48:38   But with the video, I'm still telling the story in the edit

02:48:41   and that's what takes so long for me.

02:48:43   - I enjoy, I also enjoy,

02:48:44   and I think you're getting clever at it,

02:48:46   is your integration of the sponsor reads into the script.

02:48:50   - Oh, thank you.

02:48:51   - Where, and it's almost, it's like you're,

02:48:54   I don't think you'll take it the wrong way.

02:48:57   You're sort of cornball, you like a pun, you know?

02:49:00   You do like a pun.

02:49:02   And so sometimes the way you work it in,

02:49:04   It's supposed to be a little corny

02:49:06   in the way that you work it in,

02:49:07   but it's not abrupt like the Skillshare one

02:49:10   in the most recent one that I watched.

02:49:13   It was just super funny, I thought, and very clever.

02:49:16   In a world where people are blocking,

02:49:25   using software to block ads,

02:49:26   like to me, and it's near and dear to my heart

02:49:28   as the person doing a podcast

02:49:30   with these sponsorship things is,

02:49:32   How do you make ads that not only people don't want to block, but they actually want to listen

02:49:36   to?

02:49:37   Yeah, well, I mean, you're also a huge inspiration for that because I don't turn on Google Analytics.

02:49:42   I don't turn on Google.

02:49:43   It's not even set up on the account.

02:49:45   There's no overlay ads.

02:49:47   There's no pre-roll, mid-roll, post-roll.

02:49:49   You're never getting interrupted with that.

02:49:51   And I use the strict sponsorship model, and I want it to not feel—I want it to be as

02:49:57   an enjoyable experience as possible.

02:50:00   And so I try to like be tongue in cheek with it.

02:50:02   And then I try to keep it as short as possible

02:50:04   because videos are nowhere nearly as long as podcasts.

02:50:07   And I don't want to spend a lot of your time on the sponsor.

02:50:10   So I try to get in and out and make it relevant

02:50:12   to the video.

02:50:13   - No, it is, the podcasts are the anti, or not podcasts,

02:50:16   YouTube videos are the anti-podcasts where,

02:50:18   here we are approaching hour three,

02:50:20   or do we just cross hour three?

02:50:21   (laughing)

02:50:23   You know, and your videos are, you know,

02:50:25   sorry that the video is seven minutes long.

02:50:28   didn't have enough time to make it six minutes. It's like that Mark Twain line about writing

02:50:33   a long letter. It just takes more work to make the point in six minutes, but it's even

02:50:39   better if you do. And that includes it.

02:50:42   I told you this before. It's one of my favorite stories in recent years in terms of the way

02:50:47   that little kids' minds think. And it stuck with me. Somebody on Twitter was blown away.

02:50:54   like our age, you know, had a little girl and her and her friends all call advertisements skip ads.

02:51:00   Yeah. And that's all ads, whether they actually are like YouTube ads with a skip ad button,

02:51:08   they just call them skip ads. Because that's what they that's what the label says skip ad.

02:51:12   And really, you know, that's but it also clearly shows their mentality of them that these,

02:51:19   These are things you skip, which is, you know, not conducive to continuing to have them.

02:51:25   Absolutely. Anyway, keep up the good work. I really think it's great. And it's, you know,

02:51:31   it's been a very, you know, and I can only assume you're going strong. It's not like, you know,

02:51:35   you're in it for a year, but it's you're in, you're more invested in it than ever. Right?

02:51:39   Yeah. And I might, I might end up being totally terrible at it. We'll see. But so far,

02:51:43   I'm just gonna keep working at it. Yeah. Well, it shows and I really enjoy it.

02:51:48   everybody else. You can read the rest of Renee's work of course at iMore.com and he's @ReneeRitchie

02:51:54   on Twitter and then the YouTube channel is Vector. You can just probably just go to YouTube and

02:52:00   search for it. My thanks to our sponsors this week. Let's see if I can do it off the top of

02:52:06   my head. We have Squarespace where you can go to build a website. Fracture. Fracture, of course,

02:52:13   where you can go to print your pictures. And then our new sponsor, first time sponsor of the show,

02:52:17   Marine layer where you can go to get super super soft t-shirts and sweatshirts made out of trees

02:52:23   My thanks to them. Thanks for name