The Talk Show

235: ‘Jony White’s Universe of Objective Purity’ With Rene Ritchie


00:00:00   So what is the deal with Canadian Thanksgiving?

00:00:01   I always forget and I should know because they used to always talk about it on

00:00:05   the Letterman show because Paul Shaffer was Canadian and I should know this and

00:00:08   I don't unfortunately.

00:00:10   Yeah. We have it in October when you have Columbus day because it freezes here so

00:00:14   much earlier. So we had to,

00:00:15   and I think we actually had Thanksgiving before America.

00:00:18   So we had to get all that stuff done before it just froze here.

00:00:21   And then you have Columbus day and we have nothing.

00:00:25   We should have like Jacques Cartier day to get revenge for.

00:00:28   Yeah, and the Columbus Day thing is sort of turning into a, you know,

00:00:32   yeah.

00:00:33   Sort of a crap show.

00:00:35   Yeah, because you know, Columbus, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a mixed bag,

00:00:40   you know, historically what he did here in Philadelphia. It's still a big deal,

00:00:44   though, because we have a huge Italian community. Yeah, it's a big, big Italian

00:00:48   the South Philly is like a little Italy, little Italy type, you know, part of

00:00:54   So, you know, we even have, there's a street, we have Columbus Boulevard, big street. It's

00:01:01   funny because it's Delaware Avenue. It's a big street right by the Delaware River.

00:01:05   So it's right along the river. You can, you know, you look over to your side and you

00:01:09   see New Jersey. And then when they get, when Delaware Avenue gets to South Philly, it just

00:01:15   becomes Columbus Boulevard. It's very political.

00:01:20   But the weird thing about Canada is that we don't do Easter a month later when things

00:01:25   unfreeze finally.

00:01:26   We do it at the same time, and that just seems ill-advised.

00:01:28   I mean, Passover is fine because the Angel of Death is on its own schedule.

00:01:31   Nobody doesn't care about winter.

00:01:32   But Passover, that bunny should be under the snow for another month.

00:01:36   Yeah, yeah.

00:01:37   And Amy's family is—on her dad's side is Greek, and then there's Greek Easter,

00:01:41   and that's different than regular Easter.

00:01:43   So we've got—

00:01:44   Yeah, Orthodox Christmas is different.

00:01:46   You would think if there's one thing the world could agree on, it's like a holiday

00:01:48   schedule.

00:01:49   Especially when they got to make it up.

00:01:51   I mean, that was the first.

00:01:52   - Right, but no.

00:01:54   - No.

00:01:55   - It is all over the place.

00:01:57   Oh man, I have got so much stuff to talk about.

00:01:59   - Awesome.

00:02:00   - But before we get to it, I assume,

00:02:03   I either know this for a fact or I would be shocked

00:02:06   if the answer is no, but you enjoy Lego, correct?

00:02:09   - Yes, absolutely.

00:02:11   - All right, I am not, by the way,

00:02:13   do you, are you a strict, number one,

00:02:16   do you capitalize it when you write it?

00:02:19   I hate that. I can't stand...

00:02:20   - I don't. I think their word mark is capital,

00:02:23   but I don't think capital is.

00:02:24   - Yeah, and well, at some point iOS started auto capping it.

00:02:27   Like I guess to, you know, cause that's what people do,

00:02:29   but it's not an acronym.

00:02:31   - So, yes.

00:02:32   - I don't get it.

00:02:33   I also, I like to say that I like to pluralize it as Legos.

00:02:36   And I know that there's some sticklers out there

00:02:39   who would say that they are Lego bricks, not Legos.

00:02:42   - This whole thing is like maths in England and math here,

00:02:45   but pants here and pants there.

00:02:46   You just, nobody can agree on this stuff.

00:02:48   Yeah, but I do enjoy the Legos. I've developed a terrible habit in recent years of half building

00:02:56   some models and then running out of time because I've got a trip or something. Something

00:03:01   interrupts it. It's not like I lose interest. It's a big thing. So I've got a half-built

00:03:06   Death Star from literally like six years ago. I don't even know where. Because we moved.

00:03:11   I don't even know where it is. I remember when we moved.

00:03:18   Lego models is awful. It makes you just doubt ever getting into the hobby.

00:03:22   Why would I ever buy these things? And now I have a bunch of like broken slave one and broken

00:03:31   death star and I don't know what to do with them because like there's no way I can rebuild them.

00:03:34   Right. Yeah. It's like when they break, they it is catastrophic because it's

00:03:39   anyway, never find all the pieces. So I've got the James Bond DB nine car, which is awesome.

00:03:47   awesome. And I love it, but it's only half built because I ran out of time three months

00:03:53   ago when it came out and I never got back into it. But I also enjoy building small Lego

00:03:58   kits, just ones that you can really knock out in like 45 minutes. I find it therapeutic,

00:04:05   like the way some people, like adult coloring books are a big thing. There's other hobbies

00:04:12   like that that people have that I, you know, just take your mind off whatever it is you're,

00:04:17   you know, normally I enjoy the sensation of snapping Lego bricks together. Yeah. But here's

00:04:23   my question to you, because I was doing one this morning. Do you ever get like, I, I hesitate to

00:04:29   even mention this on there. But sometimes I get a little OCD and I start wanting to put the bricks

00:04:34   on the model where the the little Lego stamp on top of each peg that they're aligned with each other.

00:04:44   Oh, I've never thought of that. But now I don't think I'm ever going to not be able to think of it.

00:04:48   And once it pops into my mind, and I and it's like, I try, I like stop thinking that that is

00:04:55   that way lies madness, because you can't even because there are some pieces that have to go

00:04:59   in a certain way, and they're not like a square. There's no way to put them with the little Lego

00:05:06   thing oriented correctly or aligned with similar pieces. But that way lies madness. I feel like

00:05:15   that might be one way that I'll wind up in the loony bin. I have to quickly forget you've ever

00:05:23   said that now.

00:05:28   I do like the Lego though.

00:05:30   But we also have a veritable toy store of unopened Lego boxes in our basement.

00:05:37   It's like that new Millennium Falcon.

00:05:38   I keep wanting it, but I know I'll never finish building it.

00:05:41   My friend of the show, Dave Whiskus, has the Millennium Falcon.

00:05:44   He also has the DB9 completely put together.

00:05:49   It is nice, but it is that Millennium Falcon, as nice as it is, it is so super finicky.

00:05:55   So I was in his office, you were in his office recently, too.

00:05:58   It's so super finicky in terms of like, it's cool that there's like this whole interior

00:06:05   to the ship and you can get to it.

00:06:06   But like the way that you get to it, by carefully lifting panels of the ship off, it's like,

00:06:13   I don't know, there's something it looks cool.

00:06:15   It is a magnificent model, but it's so super finicky

00:06:18   that I don't know that I would like to have that.

00:06:21   - And I just don't know where I'd put it

00:06:22   when I finished building it.

00:06:23   - Same here, absolutely same here.

00:06:26   (laughs)

00:06:31   We might as well get started though.

00:06:35   - Yeah.

00:06:36   (laughs)

00:06:39   - Where to start?

00:06:40   I have, I do this every time a new iPad comes out

00:06:43   where I get into it and I write a review

00:06:46   and it's like here's one week with the iPad Pro or whatever.

00:06:51   But then it's like I get even more,

00:06:53   it takes longer than a week to really truly get into it.

00:06:56   Like I've been obsessing over this iPad Pro

00:07:00   ever since it came out.

00:07:01   I bought myself, by the way, the 11 inch.

00:07:05   Amy's got the, it's another thing.

00:07:07   I'm so, I've become super annoyed

00:07:09   that Apple calls it a 12.9 inch.

00:07:11   should call it a 13 inch. I don't know why they do that. Yeah, some stuff they round

00:07:17   us some stuff they don't. That's the weird thing. And consistency is a user facing feature.

00:07:23   Like in the old days when there was a 13 inch MacBook Air, and an 11 inch MacBook Air 13

00:07:28   and 11. They sounded pretty different two inches diagonal, they looked really different

00:07:32   in person. And it made a lot of sense. I think that calling it a 12.9 inch, it sort of has

00:07:39   like a psychological effect. It's like that 1299 price thing. You know, it kind of makes

00:07:43   you feel it's 12 ish inches, but it's not 12 decision. It's 13. Yep. It's but I think

00:07:49   people will say that Apple's cheating them out of a couple extra sub inches. I guess

00:07:53   that is one theory I have is that like so for example, they're they're 13 inch laptops

00:07:58   have always been 13.3 I believe every single one they've ever made is always at least in

00:08:03   in recent, you know, last 15, 20 years. A 13-inch Apple—

00:08:06   Steve McLaughlin The 16 by 10 ones are all 13 by 13.3.

00:08:09   Dave Asprey And so you can round that down and nobody

00:08:12   feels they're getting ripped off, but if you round 12.9, 1, 2 inches up to 13, people

00:08:18   will say you're, you know, you're—

00:08:20   Steve McLaughlin Yeah. Where are my extra inches?

00:08:22   Dave Asprey You're committing marketing fraud. And

00:08:23   I can see that, and that might be the whole explanation why, you know, that they technically

00:08:27   isn't all the way to 13, so they're not going to call it 13. But I think it's so

00:08:32   much easier to think of it that way. It feels more like that's that's the difference. Anyway,

00:08:38   I bought the 11 inch I'm convinced that that's the right size for me personally. I it's and

00:08:42   it is it is funny. It is sort of like the watches have gotten harder to pick a size

00:08:47   with the latest generation. I feel like I've had so many discussions with friends about

00:08:52   which iPad to get and there's I know there's a lot of people who are on the fence who were

00:08:56   never on the fence before because that the old 12.9 inch pros were so big. Yeah. And

00:09:01   It was great for some people. They loved it. But if you didn't really need it, you know for drawing or something like that

00:09:07   It was such a bear to lug around that, you know, you didn't buy it. Whereas now

00:09:12   It's tough to say

00:09:14   rule of thumb has always been if I

00:09:16   Don't take if I don't want to have to take a laptop with me when I travel then I want a 12.9 inch iPad

00:09:20   If I do want to or I have to take a laptop with me

00:09:23   Then I want the 11 inch because it's that old line that you've said

00:09:26   So well the lightness of the of the iOS device lets the Mac be heavier

00:09:30   So I can take a 15 inch MacBook Pro for when I need to do video

00:09:33   But I want to take that with me everywhere so I can use it for video and then I have the super light 11 inch

00:09:38   I've had for everything else

00:09:39   Yep

00:09:39   as a rule of thumb I that is it is a very complicated decision matrix and I feel like ultimately

00:09:44   You've nailed it that is to me

00:09:46   That's my advice to people is if you either only want an iPad to be your portable computer

00:09:53   You know whether you are all in on the iOS lifestyle

00:09:56   you don't even use a Mac anymore. Or if you have a like an iMac, and when you out you want to use

00:10:01   an iPad, or even if you have a MacBook, but sometimes you want to go on a trip where you

00:10:06   don't even pack your MacBook, it's a vacation, you want to do less work, you are only taking an iPad.

00:10:11   In those cases, I think you want the 12.9 inch if you want to use it as your main computer for

00:10:18   any serious stretch of time, whereas the 11 inch to me, is exactly as Steve Jobs described it when

00:10:25   when he introduced the first iPad in 2010,

00:10:28   it is this in-between device,

00:10:29   in between a phone and a laptop.

00:10:32   That's what the iPad is in my life.

00:10:33   It is exactly, and I just went down the rabbit hole

00:10:37   of watching a bunch of old Steve Jobs product intros.

00:10:41   And it is crazy how his description

00:10:45   of where they were imagining this new tablet to be,

00:10:50   how it's like, well, for me,

00:10:52   that's exactly where it still is.

00:10:54   And I know it's different for a lot of people

00:10:56   and that's why we have podcasts.

00:10:59   Talk about them.

00:11:00   - No, it's totally true.

00:11:01   And I think like the whole, well,

00:11:02   it's not fair to tell people they have to choose.

00:11:04   Some people shouldn't have to buy an iPad

00:11:07   and a MacBook or something,

00:11:08   but some people are very happy with an iMac

00:11:10   to do really Xeon or a Mac Pro to do like Xeon level work,

00:11:14   but they also have to travel

00:11:15   and so they have a MacBook as well.

00:11:17   And I think it's wrong to sort of say

00:11:21   you have to choose between these things.

00:11:23   You need everything according to your use case.

00:11:25   - But for me, I'm very, very confident

00:11:28   that the 11 inch is the right model for me.

00:11:30   What about you?

00:11:31   - I have been using the 12.9

00:11:33   because that's the one that they gave me to review.

00:11:36   And I haven't bought,

00:11:38   I'm probably gonna buy the 11 inch one.

00:11:40   I haven't bought it yet.

00:11:41   I wanted to see how long I could survive.

00:11:43   Just the idea that the bezels were gone

00:11:45   and it was so much smaller.

00:11:47   And it was almost like freedom

00:11:49   going to the smaller version of the 12.9.

00:11:51   But I think now that I'm ready to buy my own,

00:11:53   I think I'm also gonna go for the 11 inch.

00:11:55   - So one of the interesting things to me

00:11:56   about the new 12.9 inch with the greatly reduced bezels

00:12:00   is that when you put it on top of like a new MacBook Air,

00:12:04   it is a very similar footprint.

00:12:06   - Yes.

00:12:07   - And it's cool how much smaller it is

00:12:08   than my old 13 inch MacBook Pro,

00:12:11   the one from four years ago.

00:12:14   But it is remarkable how similar it is in footprint

00:12:17   and just basic heft to the MacBook Air.

00:12:20   They are very comparable machines as just closed devices in a backpack.

00:12:26   And I think one of the cool things about the iPad is that by having, especially the 12.9

00:12:31   inch still has the 4 to 3 aspect ratio and the 11 inch has a slightly different aspect

00:12:35   ratio which doesn't actually work out to good numbers.

00:12:40   But it's 4.3-ish.

00:12:42   It's certainly a lot closer to 4.3 than 16 to 9.

00:12:45   I find that that is very pleasant for a lot of the stuff I do on a laptop, which is reading

00:12:53   web pages, scrolling through emails. By having a higher—it's higher rather than wider—that's

00:13:02   to me a very neat screen. It sort of makes me vaguely wish that Apple would go away from

00:13:07   16 to 9 laptop screens and go a little bit closer to 4.3.

00:13:11   - Yeah, I think there, I think, well, they had some of them

00:13:15   that were, there were 16.9 and some that were 16.10

00:13:17   for a while, but I think you're right,

00:13:19   because often on the stuff that we do,

00:13:21   it is the vertical height that matters.

00:13:22   - Yeah.

00:13:23   - And I've gotten to a point where like,

00:13:24   I would just live on that iPad Pro

00:13:25   if I didn't have to do Final Cut.

00:13:27   And if I, if, if Photoshop wasn't such muscle memory

00:13:30   that it would, it would, it's just too inconvenient for me

00:13:33   with my set in my own ways, traditional computing mentality,

00:13:36   to learn something new on the iPad,

00:13:39   to do all this other graphic design stuff,

00:13:41   I would just live on that because it is so pleasant to use.

00:13:44   - Do you remember, were you using a Mac back in the day?

00:13:46   This would probably be around like 1990 or so

00:13:49   when it came out.

00:13:49   There was a company called Radius that made displays,

00:13:52   third-party displays for Macs.

00:13:54   And they had one that rotated that,

00:13:58   so instead of being wide, it was tall.

00:14:01   And it was like a 15-inch display,

00:14:03   which at the time was huge.

00:14:05   And you could rotate it sideways.

00:14:08   And I remember seeing it in Mac world,

00:14:11   know, the magazine or Mac user and lusting after it. But of course, it was, you know, like,

00:14:15   I don't know, $2,000. It was way out of my budget as a 19 year old. But I coveted it greatly. And one

00:14:24   of my computer science professors had it and of course had it oriented up and down because he was

00:14:30   looking at code. And it was like, unbelievable how much source code he could have on screen at one

00:14:36   time. It was like, "Oh my god, that is amazing!" The only way on a normal display that you could

00:14:44   look at that much source code at a time to see a two-page algorithm or something and try to

00:14:50   get it into your head would be to print it out and put the paper next to each other.

00:14:54   Jared Polin I used to use that for Quark and later for InDesign because you could see a whole page

00:14:58   of work, like when you were doing book design or document design, you could see the whole page.

00:15:01   Right way and and if you were doing you know, most of the stuff you would do in page layout whether it's a newspaper

00:15:07   A magazine is oriented in portrait not landscape. And so having a portrait display was actually really useful

00:15:13   With the iPad because you literally just do turn it and it does that for you. All right

00:15:17   Sort of went away

00:15:19   I mean like with something like a 30 inch iMac you get that much horizontal that you really wouldn't want I wouldn't want to

00:15:25   Just slide by side, right?

00:15:27   But on a laptop I kind of miss it, you know, yeah, I don't know that's

00:15:31   But for me, the thing that I love about the reason I love buying this 11 inch iPad is that

00:15:38   it's so much smaller footprint rise than even a MacBook Air, even the new MacBook Air. And so to

00:15:44   me, if I'm temporarily going to go and, you know, take something to a coffee shop and just work for

00:15:52   an hour out of the house, you know, just to get a change in scenery, taking this little 11 inch

00:15:57   inch sliver of a device feels so remarkably, and I'm a sucker for small machines. I used

00:16:03   to love the 11 inch Air. Still sort of pine for the iPhone SE size phone, even though

00:16:11   I would, you know, I just wish it was out there. I wish there was a new one. But anyway,

00:16:15   it's so cool as a little laptop. It is amazing.

00:16:20   Which is funny because my the CEO of the company I work for, he ordered the new MacBook Air

00:16:24   and ended up returning it and getting the highest level.

00:16:27   I used to call it Core M7.

00:16:28   I think they pretend that it's an i7 now.

00:16:31   12-inch MacBook because it is the tiniest MacBook

00:16:35   and he wants to code.

00:16:37   And it's the same performance as the Air,

00:16:39   so he was willing to pay the extra money

00:16:40   just to have an even more portable MacBook.

00:16:42   - Yeah, that's some, you know, people, it's funny.

00:16:45   So many people, and I do think that the MacBook,

00:16:48   we're skipping all over the place,

00:16:49   but I do think the MacBook lineup as a whole, as a family,

00:16:52   Is a little weird right now because there's a couple of machines that are sorely in need of updates including the 12-inch MacBook

00:16:58   Yeah, and 13-inch MacBook escape the the pro without the touch bar

00:17:04   The all they did was gold for the 12-inch MacBook is the only update we got this year. Yeah, there's a new gold color

00:17:09   Yeah, and I don't think that the 13-inch MacBook Pro without the touch bar got touched at all

00:17:14   now

00:17:16   and so that's

00:17:18   It's a weird situation and I think it'll make a lot of sense once those machines do get updated

00:17:23   Well, I think it's the branding so like when the when the MacBook Air dropped to $999

00:17:28   They had the opportunity to change the name to just MacBook because it was the new entry-level computer

00:17:33   But they probably thought there was so much equity in the air name

00:17:36   they kept it and then the 12-inch MacBook came out and the air was cheaper than the MacBook and

00:17:40   Maybe they thought the MacBook would replace the air the way the air replaced the MacBook, but it didn't so now your baseline

00:17:46   Mac is the MacBook Air instead of the MacBook. And if you're willing to spend a little

00:17:50   bit more money for extra portability, you get the MacBook 12-inch. If you're willing

00:17:53   to spend a little bit extra money for the performance, you get the Pro. But these expectations,

00:17:58   a normal person looking at it would think the MacBook was the base and not the MacBook

00:18:02   Air.

00:18:03   Tom Bilyeu Yeah, it's very strange. And it's funny

00:18:05   because, like I said, I was digging through old Steve Jobs' product intros and I watched

00:18:10   the Mac, his original MacBook Air intro, everybody remembers it because of the cool, the cool

00:18:18   conceit of saying, hey, it even fits in one of these, which we've all seen, you know,

00:18:22   and he shows like a little inner office envelope, and then he actually has one that of course

00:18:28   is a perfect match. It is exactly the one that he showed in the slide. It's got the

00:18:32   neat little, you know, red thread tied around the thing to seal it. What a, it's just

00:18:38   amazing stagecraft really was. But it's so funny because again, in terms of like, hey,

00:18:44   this is exactly what we're talking about 10 years later, he even said it's like he framed

00:18:49   the whole introduction as everybody knows Apple makes the best notebooks in the world.

00:18:54   And everybody cheers because it's Mac World Expo. We've got MacBook and we've got MacBook

00:18:59   Pro. And it's so funny because they've gone back to those names. They've got a product

00:19:03   that's just called MacBook. In 2008, it was the white and black plastic ones, polycarbonate

00:19:11   if you want to be official. And then here, we've got this MacBook Air that fits in between

00:19:17   because it's sort of a premium product like a Pro, but it's also really, really small,

00:19:22   way smaller than any of the other ones. So, you know, the name made total sense and now

00:19:28   names make no sense, but they would if they just would take an eraser. Just take an eraser,

00:19:35   erase the air off the MacBook Air and then write air on the 12-inch MacBook. It would

00:19:41   all make sense. But I think you're right. It's just everybody's it. The fact that

00:19:46   it doesn't make sense, it is what it is. Everybody has internalized that the MacBook

00:19:50   Air, it doesn't mean the air doesn't mean anything related to the inner light anymore.

00:19:55   means it's the wedge-shaped $1,100 MacBook

00:19:59   that most people buy.

00:20:01   - And it has the, and also has a connotation now

00:20:03   of being the entry level because people are so used to being,

00:20:05   like none of them debuted at $999.

00:20:07   I think the original debuted at $1,799.

00:20:09   - Yeah, it was very expensive. - And the second one at $1,299.

00:20:11   So this is the cheapest debut MacBook Air ever,

00:20:14   but it's still way more than people's concept

00:20:15   of the Air being $999.

00:20:17   - Yeah, totally.

00:20:18   So I have been going nuts on the iPad.

00:20:25   I don't blame you. Absolutely. And I've wasted… Let me try to tally this up, how much money I've

00:20:32   spent on keyboards in the last 10 days. Is it more than Snell? That's the only metric.

00:20:37   Maybe. I don't know. I wouldn't want to bet on that. I didn't buy any expensive keyboards. I've

00:20:44   just been buying a lot. I'm obsessed with trying to find the right keyboard for me to use with the

00:20:53   the iPad and the Smart Folio keyboard case,

00:20:58   whatever they call it, what the hell?

00:21:00   It's a mouthful now.

00:21:02   - Yeah, the Smart Keyboard Folio.

00:21:04   - All right, is pretty good.

00:21:06   And as I've used it more and more since it came out,

00:21:11   I'm finding it better and better at, you know,

00:21:14   'cause the thing is I don't wanna leave my iPad

00:21:15   in it all the time.

00:21:16   That is the big thing.

00:21:18   And that's why I definitely didn't like

00:21:21   the old keyboard folio that much because it just seemed like such a pain to get it on

00:21:27   and off.

00:21:28   It's like origami.

00:21:29   Yeah. And I never, and I'd be like trying to attach it to the wrong side. I get all

00:21:33   mixed up, spun around. I was never a huge fan of it. Um, this one, I'm, I, the more

00:21:41   I use it, the more easily I'm getting it in and out for handholding without any thing

00:21:47   on it and then popping it back in when I want to write something. And I'm okay with the

00:21:51   keys. They are what they are. And I'm also okay with the smaller keyboard on the 11-inch

00:21:57   Folio cover because the keys I actually use are full-size. It's not truly a full-size

00:22:06   keyboard, but all of the alphabetic keys are full-size, so close enough. And I'm okay

00:22:10   with having a small tab key or a tiny little half-size backslash key who gives a crap.

00:22:19   But I don't love taking it in and out. And so I'm kind of obsessed trying to find a

00:22:24   Bluetooth keyboard that I really like in terms—and do I want to use the same one everywhere?

00:22:29   Even when I'm at home and I'm typing in the kitchen, and do I want to use the same

00:22:33   keyboard I want to take with me in a backpack when I go on a trip? And so I've bought

00:22:37   a lot of keyboards.

00:22:38   [laughter]

00:22:39   Benji F

00:22:39   It's funny. So my godson, my ten-year-old godson, he doesn't like—forget the latest

00:22:44   MacBook keyboards. He doesn't like any computer keyboard. We ended up getting him

00:22:47   that typewriter keyboard they made for the iPad that feels like an original metal arm

00:22:52   type—and that he loves. So what we needed to do was find the version of the Apple extended

00:22:56   keyboard to dock. Someone needs to make that for the iPad for you.

00:23:01   Yeah, but I have the one that's Snell—we always call it the Snell keyboard, the Matthias,

00:23:07   whatever it's called. It's a Bluetooth keyboard with supposedly Apple extended keyboard to

00:23:12   feel keys, which don't feel anything like the Apple extended keyboard too, but they

00:23:16   are mechanical and so they feel better than most keyboards. And it's okay, but it's so

00:23:22   big. It's good to have. It's possible as a kitchen keyboard. It is not a good backpack

00:23:28   keyboard because it's just too big. It's just preposterous to carry that around in your

00:23:36   I'm gonna hold this thought because

00:23:40   It's a long rant. Yeah, I'm gonna take a break and I'm gonna thank our first sponsor and it is our friends at trace

00:23:48   Pontas

00:23:50   Now look these guys sell coffee and it's all sourced from a single-family

00:23:54   Farm and

00:24:01   It's a single-family estate coffee is what it is and it is fantastic

00:24:06   It is a premium select coffee and

00:24:11   It's really good. And what you can do is you can get a subscription now you guys have heard me talk about this before

00:24:17   I love having a subscription of coffee so that I just I never run out and you just pick whether you want it

00:24:23   Delivered every week. Do you want it every two weeks? Do you want it once a month? How much do you need?

00:24:28   When you get coffee from trace Ponte's it is super super fresh. It even comes with like a roasted on date the last batch

00:24:35   I got I checked it was at my door delivered in a little box and I checked the date

00:24:40   It was roasted two days before I don't even know how that's possible because it's not like they're overnighting it

00:24:45   I don't know. They roast it. They put it in two days later ding-dong. There it is at your door

00:24:49   It's really really convenient. It is excellent coffee

00:24:53   This is a great gift idea though. If you've got coffee lovers in your life get on try getting them a sub think about getting

00:24:59   A subscription to trace Pontas coffee. It is a tremendous gift idea

00:25:03   We're right at that part of the year where you really got to start thinking about holiday gifts

00:25:07   So I'm suggesting this suggest if you got a coffee lover in your life and you want to get them something cool

00:25:13   Look into getting them a subscription for a year to trace Pontas. It's really really good

00:25:19   Now they also have I don't even know how you know

00:25:22   Where this comes from so their coffee comes from Brazil?

00:25:25   They also sell olive oil that is

00:25:28   similarly

00:25:30   Single farm origin comes from Chile. It's obviously you need a different climate for good olives than coffee

00:25:37   It's really good stuff. It is really good olive oil to me

00:25:40   The test of olive oil is you just get some good bread you pour some olive oil out on a plate and you just

00:25:46   Dip the bread in the olive oil with nothing else. Does it taste good? Yeah, it tastes really good

00:25:50   They sent me a bunch of this it is really really good very pure

00:25:55   Lowest acid that you know, you can get extra virgin olive oil

00:26:00   Really really good there honestly the sponsorship here is for the coffee

00:26:05   I'm just mentioning the olive oil just because they sent me some and it's really good and it's something to think about when you're shopping

00:26:11   So where do you go to find out more?

00:26:13   Go to trace Pontos calm special offer for listeners to the talk show. Here's the deal sign up for a subscription and

00:26:21   Use the code the talk show with the the at checkout and

00:26:27   You save an extra 10% off every bag of coffee

00:26:31   Every time you subscribe you pay 10% less than the regular just by the bag price with that code you get an extra 10%

00:26:37   Off so you get 20% off and you could use that for the gift too and nobody will know that you got a discount

00:26:43   So enter that at checkout. You can also go to Amazon and search for Trace Pontas and

00:26:50   it's the stuff gets delivered from Trace Pontas. They just it's Amazon's just a storefront.

00:26:55   They don't have it sitting there getting stale on shelves just as fresh and they encourage

00:26:59   you if you prefer. If you think it's easier to buy stuff from Amazon to do it that way.

00:27:03   So my thanks to Trace Pontas. Check them out at their website. Trace Pontas.com. Remember

00:27:07   the coupon code, the talk show and you'll save some money. All right, keyboards for

00:27:13   the iPad. I bought one. I was at the Apple store. Apple has one that's only at the Apple

00:27:19   store. It's called a Logitech keys to go. I think it's gone. Have you seen this thing?

00:27:25   No, it's a tiny little sliver of a, of a, of a Bluetooth. It's about as small as it

00:27:34   could be. And it's got like a rubber cover, sort of like it's inside a rubber glove. So

00:27:40   it's like waterproof, they even showed you know, you can just totally dump water on it.

00:27:44   It's sort of the same basic idea as the apples folio keyboard, you know, where there's like

00:27:48   a covering. But man is a squishy ass keyboard. And it's cool. The one thing that's cool is

00:27:56   that the way it's packaged is you can just open the cardboard box and actually touch

00:28:00   it in the Apple store. So I did that. Oh, I did see this. Yeah. All right. Is that what

00:28:06   it's called? The keys to go? I don't remember, but I remember the squishiness. All right.

00:28:13   It's so squishy that I didn't buy it. I was like, Oh, this is terrible. And I tweeted

00:28:17   about it. And then a couple of people like MG Seagler said, Oh, I've got that. It's not

00:28:20   that bad. You get used to it. And so the next day, like an idiot, I went back to the Apple

00:28:24   store and bought it because I thought, well, if it's good enough for you to tech keys to

00:28:27   go. Yeah, Logitech keys to go. And, you know, it is super lightweight. And it is because it's,

00:28:37   you know, doesn't have like, keys, you know, it's got a thing, I would feel very safe and secure,

00:28:43   like keeping that in a backpack or a suitcase, just getting all bounced around, like it's

00:28:48   super durable. It pairs okay. But man, it's so squishy. And I

00:28:55   it's me. It's not it's the keyboard is what it is. And I got

00:28:59   to try it before buying it. So I shouldn't complain. But because

00:29:02   it's so squishy. I find myself pounding on the keys like, like

00:29:07   I was writing, he just going through email the other day

00:29:10   trying to use it. And my fingers hurt. Like, I'm I can't

00:29:15   Willingly just I think if you typed like a sane person it would actually be super quiet might be one of the quietest

00:29:21   Keyboards in the world, but instead I'm pounding on it because I want to feel something and if you just sort of press them

00:29:28   it's actually sort of close to the

00:29:31   hypothetical like like

00:29:34   Not even moving keys keyboard

00:29:37   So it's it was a very poorly thought-out purchase

00:29:43   The other thing and I think that this might be what I settle on is the duh obvious is Apple's

00:29:50   Magic keyboard the new one that charges with a lightning port which I didn't have until this week because my iMac came

00:29:58   Actually, what did my Mac come with? I think my Mac came with a big keyboard, didn't it?

00:30:02   I don't know. I have a 5k iMac from a couple years ago. I don't use the keyboard that came with that

00:30:07   I don't even know where it is because I use an Apple extended keyboard to at some point

00:30:11   I ended up with the old Magic keyboard, the one that took AA batteries in a cylinder behind

00:30:17   the keyboard. I never bought the new one because I wasn't going to use it, and I like the old

00:30:23   arrow key layout better with the upside-down T. So I had never even tried this new Magic

00:30:30   keyboard with the Lightning port. It's amazing. A, it is way lighter than the old Magic keyboard

00:30:37   you put two double A batteries in it. It is a tremendous difference in weight. It is super

00:30:41   lightweight. It is the smallest possible keyboard you could have that is truly full size. It

00:30:48   is just exactly like a MacBook keyboard, just with nothing else. There's no and there's

00:30:55   no sides. There's no top, there's no bottom. The even nicely, the function keys are full

00:31:01   height. So it's even nicer. And the key travel is amazing. It is. This is the keyboard that

00:31:08   I hope they can somehow put into MacBooks. Yes, this should be the MacBook keyboard.

00:31:13   And they have I think they have the butterfly mechanism or a butterfly mechanism with the,

00:31:18   you know, the quote unquote stability so that if you touch, you know, press down on the

00:31:22   corner of the key, the whole key goes down as one piece. It certainly feels like it,

00:31:26   whether it's actually the same mechanism or something similar. I don't know. But it, it

00:31:30   It just feels great in every single way.

00:31:33   And if Apple can put this keyboard,

00:31:35   that keyboard into MacBooks, I will weep tears of joy.

00:31:39   - I'm just salty that you can only get it

00:31:41   with the extended version in space gray,

00:31:43   which is the only acceptable color now.

00:31:45   You can get the silver one in both,

00:31:47   but can only get the space gray one with the number pad.

00:31:50   - You're taking the words right out of my mouth

00:31:52   'cause I'm there.

00:31:53   The small Magic Keyboard only comes in the white

00:31:56   and they have the other ones right there in the Apple store.

00:32:00   big ones with the space gray and it looks so cool and it just hurts it hurts my heart

00:32:08   and I don't even want to admit how much more I would pay to get it in space gray so it's

00:32:13   a $99 keyboard it's 100 bucks it feels like a hundred dollar keyboard to be honest the

00:32:18   logitech one that I bought was 70 and this feels way more than $30 nicer than that logic

00:32:23   tech one and it's not that much heavier it's obviously not waterproof you know so when

00:32:29   you've traveled, you've got to somehow take that into consideration. And I have a suggestion

00:32:34   on that front. But I would pay, honestly, I was going to say 150 for Space Gray. I would

00:32:41   pay 200. If they had it for 200, I would have paid 200 to get it in Space Gray, because

00:32:45   that's how big of an idiot I am.

00:32:47   I was hoping I could buy the Space Gray one and just get that crazy Canadian miner on

00:32:51   the AVE channel to cut the number pad off of it for me.

00:32:57   This face gray looks so much cooler. Yeah. So in terms of traveling with it, and I think that this

00:33:02   is what I'm going to end up with, friends of the show studio, neat makers of all sorts of very cool

00:33:09   and a wide range of crazy stuff. They make everything from the glyph, which is a very cool

00:33:17   little tripod mount for phones to they have a, they have a kit for making clear ice cubes.

00:33:26   So they have a pen Siri remote holder, right a Siri remote holder. They just you know, they make cool things

00:33:32   They're just two guys

00:33:33   They have a podcast over there on the relay where they talk about the stuff that they make yeah, very cool stuff

00:33:39   But one of the products is called the canopy

00:33:41   It's a thing that put the new magic keyboard in and it's got like little suction on the one side

00:33:47   It's a little threefold thing. So you put the keyboard on and it sticks with these little suction cups

00:33:53   So you could remove it too. It's not like you're sticking it with glue or something like that

00:33:57   It sticks with suction and then it folds over and has a nice little leather strap

00:34:01   Yeah, so I think that that's my solution for traveling

00:34:04   I think I'm gonna like that better than using the folio keyboard because a it's a better keyboard

00:34:09   It is actually the best portable

00:34:11   It is literally the best feeling portable keyboard in the world in my opinion better than any MacBook

00:34:17   available better than any

00:34:20   Bluetooth keyboard I've felt that is that would be considered portable and now you can just plug it into charge off your right

00:34:27   Right. Well and the thing is it's like what do I value though? Like do I like it over?

00:34:32   I certainly like the keyboard more than the folio keyboard but

00:34:35   On the other hand, sometimes it's nice to have the iPad magnetically connected as opposed to just propped up

00:34:43   Mm-hmm, right, you know

00:34:45   There's scenarios like on an airplane or something like that. You hit a little turbulence or something if it's on your lap

00:34:50   It's not going you don't have to worry about the keyboard

00:34:52   Coming apart, you know from the iPad

00:34:55   So, I don't know

00:34:56   I feel like those are my two finalists in this battle royale of a keyboard to take with my iPad as I travel

00:35:03   Apple's smart keyboard with studio needs canopy to wrap it up and stick it in a backpack or

00:35:10   Just the most obvious choice and this whole thing was the complete waste of time and money

00:35:15   apples folio keyboard case

00:35:18   Yeah, I just sticks apples folio keyboard case because I am completely

00:35:21   Keyboard not agnostic but like you can drop me on a new keyboard and within 20 minutes. It's like fortnight, you know

00:35:28   I just take over after 20 minutes. I'm fine with it. So

00:35:31   The folio keyboard works fine for me a package of the whole thing up

00:35:35   But I do love I have the canopy and I do love it and now I'm jealous that I'm not using it

00:35:39   There is there are some weird stuff though because like an iPad

00:35:42   optimized keyboard has some keys that a Mac keyboard doesn't have and a Mac keyboard has keys to the iOS keyboard doesn't have like

00:35:51   for whatever reason Apple is you know as a kids conducting a war on escape keys and

00:35:56   the iOS

00:35:59   folio keyboard has never had an escape key and I guess a part of it is because iOS doesn't really do much with

00:36:05   escape key

00:36:07   but it also it also has the little thing in the corner to bring up like the

00:36:11   Alternate keyboards so you it's easier to get to like emoji picker, right?

00:36:17   And you if you're using a Mac keyboard actually don't even remember how you do

00:36:22   I don't have one in front of me right now as we record control command space

00:36:25   Control, so it's sort of like the Mac shortcut. Oh, no. Sorry. I was talking about the Mac. No, what about on iOS?

00:36:31   How do you get the emoji picker if you have a keyboard a Bluetooth keyboard connected that doesn't have I don't know

00:36:36   because I only ever use that button. Yeah. So I don't even know. Maybe you don't. Maybe

00:36:40   you don't get to use emoji. Yeah. You got to reach over and hit the screen like an animal.

00:36:45   And I will also say in this whole big mix of feeling one way than the other than the

00:36:54   other going back and forth. It is way nicer to have a, the, the, what do they call the

00:37:00   connector on the iPads now? The smart connector, the smart connector is a nicer thing in practice

00:37:06   than Bluetooth can ever be. Because you just, you know, when you're done with the keyboard,

00:37:12   you just pull the iPad apart from it and there's nothing else to do. Whereas with a Bluetooth

00:37:16   keyboard, you're in range, you know, and it's sort of like, it's sort of like I wish Bluetooth

00:37:20   had a worse range, right? Like I kind of wish I could set these keyboards up so that they

00:37:26   only have like three feet of range. Like, because I'm never, I don't want to use the

00:37:30   keyboard unless my iPad is within three feet. And it would be so nice if I could just walk

00:37:34   to another room and have it say, "Okay, you're not using the keyboard anymore."

00:37:39   But instead…

00:37:40   But just measure time of flight. If time of flight is over so many milliseconds, stop

00:37:42   using the keyboard.

00:37:43   Yeah. So it's like I'll be in the kitchen and I have a Bluetooth keyboard hooked up

00:37:48   and I just pick up the iPad and go to another room and I go to type and nothing happens.

00:37:53   It's like, "Oh," because it's still connected to the keyboard. Then I got to go

00:37:56   to Control Center, turn Bluetooth off. I always wait like a second, turn it back on. But it's

00:38:03   minor irritation every time and you never with the the smart connector you're it you're never

00:38:08   surprised right if it's connected it you can type and if it's not connected you don't you get the

00:38:15   on-screen keyboard and i never noticed that about the escape i think i think it's part of apple's

00:38:19   greater war on legacy computing because escape is not a human readable key if you happen to have

00:38:24   grown up with computers or you're working computers you know what it means but for example like after

00:38:28   the show finishes recording that escape button is going to turn into a stop record button for me

00:38:32   because I'm using QuickTime and QuickTime is gonna own it and the touch bar is gonna show a stop button instead of the escape button

00:38:36   And that's all way more human readable than just a continual escape key. I think yeah

00:38:41   the other thing

00:38:44   This pains me it pains me

00:38:47   But and I've had this happen before I remember very vividly the last time when the original iPad Pro

00:38:53   First one came out. I had a similar thing where after about 10 days. I started like reaching up to touch my MacBook

00:39:01   display. And you know that I do not like anybody touching my Mac displays. Like as soon as

00:39:08   I have a Macbook and somebody, you know, somewhere along the road six months in, somebody touches

00:39:15   my screen, there's a part of me that dies and I just want to throw the machine out and

00:39:20   just go get it. I got it now. Go all Howard Hughes and just buy a new Macbook.

00:39:25   - Like a dispenser, you throw it away, you pull it,

00:39:27   you run off the dispenser and put it down.

00:39:29   - Yeah, I just love the idea of a display

00:39:32   that has never been touched by a greasy finger.

00:39:34   But I find myself reaching up to touch the Mac

00:39:38   and it's very dependent on what I'm doing,

00:39:43   but like an app like Tweetbot that largely looks the same,

00:39:47   and if I'm switching back and forth with a lot of time

00:39:51   on the iPad Pro in laptop mode to doing it,

00:39:53   I'm not making an argument that the Mac should support touch. I'm just making the

00:39:58   observation that if you spend a lot of time on the iPad and using it in a laptop configuration,

00:40:04   it's very hard not to want to touch the Mac just because you stopped thinking about

00:40:12   it as something. But the other thing is I often always think that I can move a cursor

00:40:21   around by going underneath the spacebar on an iPad. And you know, there is no trackpad

00:40:25   there. Yeah, no, I wish they had to put a capacitive spacebar on the keyboard itself.

00:40:31   And it would work exactly the way the onscreen spacebar does. If you hold your finger there

00:40:35   for a few seconds and start swiping sideways, it would just it would just do the cursor

00:40:39   movement for you. Yeah, I don't know. It's it is funny. And that is a weird thing too

00:40:43   about this whole situation is that when you're using the onscreen keyboard, you do get a

00:40:48   a trackpad, right? You can just hold down the space key and you can move precisely move

00:40:52   the cursor around. And when you're using a hardware keyboard, which in theory should

00:40:56   be better in every way, you actually lose the ability to go into trackpad mode and move

00:41:01   the insertion point. You lose a very big feature. So it's such a mixed bag.

00:41:07   And humans are horrible at context, which if you take your hands off the keyboard to

00:41:11   use the screen, it's incredibly interruptive to your workflow. It's way better to keep

00:41:14   your hands where they are. So that still hurts me.

00:41:17   - Yeah, it's a huge irritation to me

00:41:20   and it's a huge reason why,

00:41:21   it's a big one on my list of reasons that

00:41:26   as much as I'm spending all this time on the iPad Pro

00:41:28   trying to use it as much as I can,

00:41:30   one of the things I just cannot get over

00:41:33   is the lack of, the needing to reach up and touch.

00:41:38   On that front, the other thing is

00:41:41   I am so loving the new Apple Pencil

00:41:44   and I don't really draw, I don't have,

00:41:46   not a hobby of mine. You had a great video this past week, and you are a very good hobbyist

00:41:54   illustrator. You enjoy it. You're good at it. And so it makes for a good video.

00:42:01   If I made a video for illustrating, I would have to bring in outside talent to do the actual

00:42:08   drawing. I mean, Gray has done really well with just stick figures. So yeah,

00:42:13   I guess I could do that. I could do the stick figure out. I just like it. I just like using

00:42:17   the pencil for all sorts of things. I like the using it to manipulate the user interface.

00:42:22   Yeah, I just love that it's there. I just love it as like a fidget thing in my hand because it feels

00:42:27   so good. But the thing that sort of drives me nuts is that when you are editing text,

00:42:32   it doesn't act as a precise placer of the insertion point. You gear in notes or mail,

00:42:40   and it's a long thing of text. You can use the pencil to place the insertion point, but

00:42:45   whatever, you know, you tap it in the middle of a word where you have a misspelling and

00:42:49   you want to change two letters. You can't tap in the middle of the word. If when you

00:42:54   tap on the word, the insertion point goes after the word and it's the exact same thing

00:42:58   you get when you tap with your finger and with your finger. It makes sense because your

00:43:02   finger is a very imprecise pointing device. The pencil on the other hand is incredibly

00:43:07   precise. So I find it very, very frustrating that when you're moving, trying to place the

00:43:12   insertion point precisely with the pencil, you get the same algorithm you get with the

00:43:16   finger.

00:43:17   Jared Polin Yeah, I mean, the pencil, your finger is,

00:43:19   it's a blunt instrument. And the pencil, it feels like you should be able to do all sorts

00:43:23   of very exact marks, like you should be able to circle words to select them. You should

00:43:27   be able to cut through words to open. I mean, there's so much potential there.

00:43:30   Dave Asprey Yeah, and the old, you know, oft quoted, if

00:43:33   see a stylist, they blew it. Steve Jobs line was only in the context of a device that needs

00:43:40   a stylist that you can't really properly function, you know, manipulate the device without a

00:43:45   stylist. So people forget that before the iPhone came out, most touchscreens were resistive,

00:43:49   where you literally had to squeeze two layers of plastic together to get it to register

00:43:53   an input. And you had to use a stylus or the nail of your finger to do anything on them.

00:43:58   And that was not that was not the future of computing. No. So like, I don't know, and

00:44:02   I had a handspring visor back in the day as my palm device. My wife had one too and

00:44:09   she really liked it. We used it a lot. It's kind of remarkable how much we used it given

00:44:13   that it didn't have any networking. There was no cell networking at the time or there

00:44:17   was cell networking but not on the palm devices and the Wi-Fi wasn't a thing yet. We used

00:44:22   it a lot for something that you have to get data in and out. You had to connect it by

00:44:26   USB to your Mac and sync. But yeah, if you lost your stylus,

00:44:30   you were you, you had to go find something stylus like like

00:44:35   there was nothing technically magic about the stylus. It was

00:44:37   just a piece of, you know, just a like an extra plastic. No, not

00:44:45   an ice order, three packs of extra stylus is just so I would

00:44:47   have one around for when I lost mine. Oh, it's not an etch a

00:44:50   sketch. What were those things called? You know, but there were

00:44:52   those things that you could buy as a kid where you could draw on

00:44:54   them and they were sort of like an Etch A Sketch where it was like magnetic paper.

00:44:59   Oh, yeah. I don't remember.

00:45:01   Yeah. Well, whatever they were called, if you remember. You could use that as your stylus.

00:45:07   You could use a toothpick if you wanted to. But you needed something to press. You couldn't

00:45:12   just tap on things. So that's what Jobs was talking about. Jobs was talking about

00:45:16   needing a stylus. I don't think that the iPad ever should have anything that requires

00:45:22   the pencil. I think that they've done a great job of that. But I do think, though,

00:45:27   that they still haven't fully taken advantage of it. If you do have the pencil connected

00:45:31   and paired, so many things could be so much better. It should be fantastic for selecting

00:45:36   text and stuff like that. And instead, it's not. It's actually—

00:45:40   **Ezra Klein:** All that stuff from the Microsoft's Courier demo from all those years ago.

00:45:43   **Beserat Debebe:** Yeah. Yeah. Well, and the other thing I tweeted over the weekend is

00:45:48   I have found myself in the last week or so really wishing that I could do handwriting

00:45:54   to text because I'll be sitting on the couch with the iPad and I don't have a key—all

00:45:59   this talk of keyboards, you know, they're all in the kitchen or in my office and I'm

00:46:03   just sitting there with nothing but the naked iPad and a pencil and I want to—oh, somebody

00:46:09   sent me something interesting on Twitter I want to answer.

00:46:12   I don't like typing on the screen on the iPad.

00:46:15   I never have and if anything I've gotten worse at it

00:46:19   or I feel like I've gotten worse

00:46:21   because I feel like 10 years into this,

00:46:24   11 years I guess at this point,

00:46:26   my thumb typing on an iPhone has gotten,

00:46:29   continues to improve.

00:46:30   Like I'm better at typing on the iPhone

00:46:32   than I ever have been.

00:46:33   Part of it is that the phones have gotten bigger,

00:46:35   the phone that I carry has gotten bigger

00:46:37   so the keyboard is a little bigger

00:46:38   and there's bigger targets

00:46:40   and I've just gotten really good at it.

00:46:41   I can't type on an iPad as fast as I can on my phone

00:46:45   And that is frustrating.

00:46:47   I always feel, I feel like I'm trying to run underwater.

00:46:51   Like I'm in the pool and I'm trying to run.

00:46:54   And it's like, that is not what you're supposed to do

00:46:57   in a pool.

00:46:58   And so whether I actually would be faster

00:47:01   if I could just write on screen

00:47:03   and have it turn into text as I write, like the Newton did,

00:47:07   whether that actually would be faster

00:47:09   than typing on the onscreen keyboard or not,

00:47:12   it would feel faster to me,

00:47:13   which is really all that matters.

00:47:15   I wouldn't feel hamstrung.

00:47:16   And I suspect I could hand write faster

00:47:19   than I can type on an iPad on the screen.

00:47:22   So I really wish that you could do that.

00:47:26   And it's funny because I tweeted that

00:47:28   and a bunch of people said,

00:47:29   "Yeah, I wish you could do that too."

00:47:32   Some people pointed to some third party keyboards.

00:47:35   What the heck is this thing called?

00:47:37   It's like called Mezik or something.

00:47:41   I don't know, I just bought it.

00:47:43   but it's a third party keyboard for the iPad.

00:47:46   And when you use this keyboard,

00:47:48   you get like a little box where the keyboard is

00:47:50   and you can write with the pencil

00:47:52   and it turns what you write to real text.

00:47:56   - Yeah.

00:47:56   - The handwriting recognition is surprisingly accurate.

00:48:00   I forget what, it's some kind of third party thing

00:48:03   that I guess the thing that they licensed.

00:48:06   Yeah, it's called MaZEC, M-A-Z-E-C.

00:48:09   - I mean, Apple does it with Asian light.

00:48:10   Like you can write in Chinese

00:48:11   it'll recognize all the characters that you're right just doesn't do it in Latin languages right

00:48:15   that's and that's part of the frustration is that Apple supports it for Asian languages they have it

00:48:19   on the watch right where you can write on the watch and they won't do it on the device where

00:48:25   to me it makes the most sense for you know in a Latin language the iPad if you have a pencil and

00:48:31   I can't help but suspect that part of Apple is gun shy from the whole Newton thing that maybe

00:48:36   that the bad reputation that Newton had as a that it had, you know, the handwriting recognition

00:48:44   was literally a joke. You know, the Simpsons made jokes, Dunesbury made a joke that everybody

00:48:48   remember everybody remembers the jokes about, you know, eat up Martha more than they remember

00:48:53   the Newton. And just the fact that the Newton itself is sort of, you know, because it got

00:48:59   canceled unceremoniously, I know, and it was the right decision. And when he did it, Steve

00:49:04   Jobs had good things to say about it. He was like this, "We're not canceling it because it's a bad

00:49:07   product. We're canceling it because we've got to focus this company to save it." And focus means

00:49:12   doing things like killing the Newton, killing OpenDoc, et cetera. But I feel like it still

00:49:20   is a scar on Apple's corporate soul, right? Because it was a failure. Ultimately, for whatever,

00:49:26   you know, it wasn't—it suffers from an unfair, bad reputation. It was a lot better product than

00:49:32   people who didn't use it think. The handwriting recognition, in fact, got really good. What they

00:49:40   shipped originally should not have shipped. It was bad. But what it eventually became was, I think,

00:49:47   pretty good. I had, I think, a Newton 130. I forget which one, 120 or 130. And it was pretty good. It

00:49:53   was fast enough. And the way that it turned what you write into text, the pace that it went at was

00:49:59   just write. I could write as fast as I could. You didn't have to use some weird, made-up

00:50:07   printing language like Palm did with graffiti. And again, I had a Palm and I used it and I learned

00:50:13   graffiti and that made it work. And my wife and I used to write notes to each other and we'd end

00:50:20   up making our tees the weird graffiti way. Like I'm not put slamming Palm for that, but there's

00:50:25   There's no way Apple would ever have done.

00:50:27   It's just not something Apple would ever do

00:50:29   is make you invent, make you learn a new way of writing.

00:50:32   You know, the Apple ways, they've got to,

00:50:35   somehow got to understand everybody's crazy handwriting

00:50:38   as it is.

00:50:39   But boy, I would really like to do that

00:50:41   in any text input thing,

00:50:43   but when I have the pencil in my hand,

00:50:46   it just seems so frustrating that you can't, you know,

00:50:48   and they have the, you know, they have it on Mac too, right?

00:50:51   It's called like Inkwell or something.

00:50:52   I don't know if it's, is it even still there?

00:50:54   - I think so.

00:50:55   Yeah, but they'll do handwriting to text on the Mac.

00:50:59   They do it on the watch.

00:51:01   And they do it in iOS on Asian languages.

00:51:04   But they don't allow it for Latin languages.

00:51:06   And for as good as the Newton got at handwriting recognition,

00:51:11   what, 20 years ago?

00:51:12   Over 20 years ago?

00:51:14   Think about how much better it would be now on modern hardware.

00:51:17   And it certainly seems like something machine language

00:51:21   would make really good.

00:51:24   Like you wouldn't, I don't even know if the right way

00:51:25   to do the algorithm would be to come up

00:51:28   with an algorithm at all.

00:51:29   It might just be better to feed it all into machine learning

00:51:32   and let the computers figure it out.

00:51:34   - Yeah, it's just like the pencil is so much a pencil,

00:51:36   it makes the iPad feel like it should be

00:51:39   much more like a paper.

00:51:40   - Yeah.

00:51:41   - You can almost do anything you can

00:51:43   with marking up paper with it.

00:51:44   - Yeah, and it does things too.

00:51:46   Like if you start a note and just use the pencil

00:51:51   and just write, and it doesn't turn your handwriting

00:51:53   to text. But it obviously is doing that behind the scenes because you can search for what

00:51:59   you write. And it in my experience, it is remarkably good and my handwriting is not

00:52:04   good. And so you know, that it's obviously doing handwriting to text because it's indexing

00:52:10   it, but it won't actually just turn it to text. And

00:52:15   Jared Ranere: it might be trying to keep it authentically hand like if they they think

00:52:18   that if you're handwriting, it should look like you're handwriting, but it'd be nice

00:52:20   to have the option to digitize.

00:52:22   digitize? Well, I get it notes, I get that you might want your handwriting to stay handwriting

00:52:26   in notes. But you know, like when I'm writing, responding to somebody on Twitter or responding

00:52:30   to email, I just want to write and have it turn into text. Exactly like scribble on the

00:52:35   watch. Yeah, exactly like that. Just very frustrating to me because I know it's technically

00:52:41   possible. I know Apple itself has solved this problem on ancient ancient arm hardware, all

00:52:48   the way from the first time they were using ARM back on the Newton.

00:52:53   And I know that they could do way better today because the machines are so much faster and

00:52:57   machine learning is a real thing.

00:53:01   It's very frustrating and it just feels—and I never had this feeling with the old Apple

00:53:06   Pencil and the iPad because I didn't have the pencil with me all the time.

00:53:11   I never lost my pencil.

00:53:13   But I had like a system.

00:53:17   two places in my backpack where the pencil might be. But it was always in—this pencil

00:53:22   spent most of its time in my backpack. Whereas now, it's always connected to the side of

00:53:27   the iPad, and I've always got it. It just feels frustrating. So that's one of my top

00:53:33   frustrations with the iPad.

00:53:35   Jared Ranere: It's like that Syracuse thing where it's finally good enough that you

00:53:38   start wanting to sweat the details.

00:53:40   Tom Bilyeu: Yeah, exactly. That is exactly how I feel about the pencil. What about you?

00:53:45   How are you feeling with the pencil?

00:53:46   I love it. I'm using it and I did not mind the other one at all

00:53:51   You know people made fun of it for having to stick out when you charged it and things like that

00:53:54   But you know

00:53:54   I would run out of pencil in a coffee shop or on a plane and it was a lifesaver just plugging it in and getting

00:53:59   A bit more juice. So I was I was fine with it, but having it always I would lose pencils

00:54:03   I would leave them in different cities

00:54:04   I would leave them on planes and it's just it's become a habit to slap it on top of the

00:54:08   iPad and it's just it's always charged that way I forget that it's actually an electrical device now because it's always they're always charged

00:54:16   I'm using it constantly. I put it back there anytime I get up to get anything

00:54:19   And it just it went enough over the top of that curve that it's become almost

00:54:24   Almost like a real pencil at this point

00:54:27   It's it's just a remarkably pleasant thing to hold in hand. It really is. I don't know. I'm I

00:54:33   Just can't say enough good things about it. Yeah

00:54:37   I'm vacillating on whether I want more of the sides to be flat because it feels more like a standard pencil

00:54:42   I can rest my index finger on it like I would a standard pencil, but not my middle finger.

00:54:46   And I'm used to having sort of flat edges on both sides. So I'm getting to that point

00:54:49   of fussiness now.

00:54:50   It is a little weird having one flat side. I can't recall ever having a pen or pencil

00:54:56   with one flat side before. I've either had like an octagon—is that what a pencil is?

00:55:01   An octagon or a hexagon?

00:55:02   A hexagon, I think.

00:55:03   Yeah, probably a hexagon. An octagon would be too many. Yeah. So either a traditional

00:55:07   pencil that's a hexagon or something that's completely round, like a pen, like having

00:55:12   one flat side is different, but it's not unpleasant.

00:55:15   It shows you which side has to be connected for the charging to work, and if you had more

00:55:19   than that, you'd have to try to figure out which one. So I get that. It just feels like

00:55:23   an in-between thing to me right now.

00:55:25   Yeah. Yeah, and it's so funny because everybody—and I've been reading a bunch of reviews and

00:55:29   listening to podcasts, and everybody's talking about the iPad Pros, and I haven't heard

00:55:33   anybody say they don't like the new form factor of the iPad Pros. Everybody really

00:55:38   loves the flat sides. The only downside I can think of is Syracuse's observation that

00:55:44   it makes it harder to pick up when it's naked, especially one-handed. There is some truth

00:55:49   to that because it is flat. Even with the camera bump, the camera bump, there is a weird

00:55:54   tripod effect where it—you'd almost wish that the camera bump raised it more so that

00:56:00   it'd be easier to pick up. Instead, somehow, even with what looks like a very big camera

00:56:06   bump, it still lies flat.

00:56:08   Steven: Yeah, my fingers were so stubby I could never get them underneath an iPad anyway,

00:56:11   so I just haven't changed the way I pick it up at all, but that's valid.

00:56:14   Dave: But it is funny. It's just neat. It looks better. I love the flat sides. I love

00:56:19   the way it feels, but it's such a—I don't know what informed what, but it's such a—as

00:56:24   a practical matter, to have the pencil magnetically attached like it does, you need flat sides.

00:56:28   Steven Yes. Yeah. And it's weird because when I—I was hoping that when the new iPads

00:56:33   came out, we'd finally have this unified design language across Apple's mobile stuff, the

00:56:37   way we have with the MacBook Air across Apple's computers. But now with this, I'm kind of

00:56:42   not upset because I want more stuff to look like this again.

00:56:44   Tom Bilyeu (01h00): The pencil is so neat too because it is a computer,

00:56:49   right? The Apple Pencil is a tiny little computer and it is one of these things that it's like

00:56:54   one of the things that Apple does not get anywhere near enough credit for, in my opinion,

00:56:59   how good they are getting at making tiny little computers. AirPods are tiny little computers.

00:57:04   Then the whole way that their two AirPods are always in perfect sync in one ear and the other

00:57:11   is because they're two little computers that negotiate with each other and like, you know,

00:57:16   in less time than you could ever notice. They're, you know, ABABAB. Okay, we're in perfect sync.

00:57:23   There you go. So this pencil is a computer, but it has no lights. It has no ports. It doesn't.

00:57:30   There's no sign that it's a computer. All the things that you think a computer has click a

00:57:35   button. Nope. Doesn't have a button. Doesn't have a light. Doesn't have a port. I just.

00:57:40   I just an object, which is what more and more of Apple things are becoming. Exactly. Except

00:57:45   and I love this. You snap it onto the iPad and what do you get? You get a little on screen,

00:57:51   Little like a popover type thing that says Apple pencil and then it tells you the battery life because that is one thing for me

00:57:57   I never had any idea how much battery life was in my old Apple pencil and when it ran out of the widget

00:58:02   Well, yeah, there were ways that you could check and I knew about it, but I'd never I would never know

00:58:08   It wasn't your face. Yeah, you know, where is this? You never go to check you just collect it and it's like, okay

00:58:13   I see your Apple pencil and by the way your it's got 93% battery life

00:58:17   And because it's a little computer if you ever do forget and just put it down

00:58:20   It goes into a deep sleep mode to stay in new power. So yeah, I use it when you pick it up again

00:58:24   It's remarkably clever. Yeah, it's you know it it I wonder how long it takes

00:58:29   I remember talking to Apple about that when in a

00:58:31   Couple weeks ago and you know had a briefing to talk about all this stuff and that was one of the points

00:58:36   They were super proud about is that the pencil the pencil knows like it. It's like a little you know, and I'm per morphe

00:58:43   Anthropomorphic item it like knows when it's not being used

00:58:46   Yeah

00:58:48   Yeah, they don't even talk about the same because when they with the previous version was like it it'll fast charge to this point

00:58:53   It'll totally charge and now they just don't want you to think about charging anymore. They don't give you any number

00:58:58   Let's just put it on your iPad and it will always be and it really like air pods. It'll just always be charged

00:59:02   The the nub nib, what do you call the tip the tip?

00:59:07   Yeah, the nib tip is exactly the same as the old Apple and I don't know why I don't know, you know

00:59:13   it's an it to me, it's interesting that it's exactly the same because

00:59:18   Everything else is different and you can't use the old pencil with a new iPad and you can't use the new one with an old iPad

00:59:23   Etc. So they could have changed the nib and it really wouldn't matter

00:59:26   It's not like it's I don't think there's anybody out there who's like stockpiled hundreds and hundreds of dollars of replacement tips

00:59:32   And oh, thank god

00:59:34   All of my replacement tips will still work

00:59:36   But on the other hand, I can't think of any you know

00:59:39   There's no reason not to use this. Yeah, there's no reason to change it. They don't change for changes sake, right?

00:59:46   And so if you do have a stockpile of old Apple pencil nibs, you're in luck

00:59:51   It'll all work. I

00:59:54   Just love this product. I really do. It's it's so clever and that whole the whole thing from

00:59:59   Planning to X. It's one of those things when people keep saying, you know those old, you know, Apple's doomed Apple doesn't innovating

01:00:05   well

01:00:05   You just look at some of the products that have come over the last few years and how smart they are and not truly

01:00:10   Again, like what you do with watch bands

01:00:12   the whole watching history never thought about making the kind of bands that was easily changeable or easily customizable and there have been

01:00:17   People making stylists and people making all these projects products for years whack-om had a decade lead

01:00:22   On these things and Apple just thought of stuff that in a decade never occurred to whack-off hold that thought on the watch bands

01:00:27   I am gonna take another break here and thank our next sponsor and it's our good friends at Squarespace

01:00:34   Look Squarespace you guys know Squarespace. This is where you go all in one to build your website

01:00:41   You can do everything domain name. You can get your analytics you can design you can

01:00:48   Post it is your CMS. So let's say you set up a website

01:00:51   Let's say all you do is you want to host a podcast you can set up a thing on Squarespace make your podcast

01:00:56   And then when you post new episodes you do it through Squarespace in addition to being your app that you use to design the website

01:01:02   It's also the app you use to post if it's a blog or podcast or something like that with you know periodic content

01:01:10   Just a terrific terrific thing. They have great customer service

01:01:13   They have a tremendous track record technically in terms of uptime and everything, you know like that

01:01:19   And even though they help you they get you started with a bunch of great great templates and stuff like that to start with

01:01:28   It's not one of these things where oh

01:01:31   You can always tell when you're on a Squarespace site because it's gonna be one of these, you know

01:01:35   know, eight templates or something like that. It's the opposite. You use Squarespace sites

01:01:40   every day and you have no idea because it's so easy to customize the design and get your

01:01:45   own brand on that site and make it truly own it and make it yours. It's just unbelievable

01:01:51   if you ever get nosy and start viewing source on websites and looking for the things in

01:01:57   the headers that show that it's being hosted on Squarespace. It's unbelievable how many

01:02:02   sites you visit on a daily basis are built and hosted on Squarespace. You just never

01:02:07   would know it visually because they don't look like cookie cutter sites. It's tremendous.

01:02:12   It's everything you would want in an all-in-one hosted website service. They have been sponsoring

01:02:18   this show forever. People keep signing up and it's great. There are so many people

01:02:23   who are listening to the show who have signed up and are Squarespace customers now. That's

01:02:28   why they keep sponsoring it. So you get a professional website, looking professional

01:02:33   website in terms of hosting and all the technical aspects and you get professional tech support.

01:02:38   If you ever get stuck or have a question about how to do something, you can get a free domain

01:02:43   if you sign up for a year. So where do you go to find out more? Go to Squarespace dot

01:02:46   com slash talk show and then they'll know you came from the show. And remember that

01:02:52   code talk show know that just ta lks h o w and you get 10% off your first purchase. Now

01:02:59   you have to remember that code because when you sign up, you get a free trial for like

01:03:02   30 days. You can do everything. There's no limits. 30 days free trial. Then you have

01:03:07   to pay and that's when you want to remember that coupon code talk show and you'll save

01:03:11   10% including if you pay for a whole year. It's like getting two months for free or something

01:03:15   like that. So my thanks to Squarespace for their continuing support of the talk show.

01:03:21   squarespace.com/talkshow. All right, watch bands. Here's a thought that popped into my

01:03:27   head this week. I don't know if you remember this René, but last year Apple announced

01:03:33   a product called AirPower. Yes, I've heard of it. And it's a very appealing sounding

01:03:41   product. It's a charging pad that you could rest a iPhone 8 or iPhone 10, including the

01:03:50   the XS and XR on it and it would charge.

01:03:52   And you could put your Apple Watch on it

01:03:57   and it would charge your Apple Watch.

01:04:00   And what else was it gonna do?

01:04:04   - It was do up to two phones, the Apple Watch

01:04:06   and the AirPods with a special--

01:04:07   - That's right, the AirPods.

01:04:08   I can't believe I forgot that.

01:04:09   So the AirPods, there was gonna be a new case

01:04:14   and they didn't have exact plans at the time

01:04:17   for what would the story be for people

01:04:20   who already own AirPods?

01:04:21   They didn't, they said, "We don't know yet.

01:04:22   "We're thinking about it, but probably it would be

01:04:25   "something that people who already own AirPods

01:04:27   "could just buy the new case

01:04:29   "instead of buying $160 new AirPods.

01:04:32   "You could just buy the case

01:04:33   "and then you'd have this wireless case

01:04:34   "and then you just rest it on the thing

01:04:36   "and it would charge."

01:04:37   Well, it's about 14 months later

01:04:43   and the AirPower is nowhere to be seen.

01:04:48   Apple has held two events this past few months

01:04:52   and they've never mentioned it at either event.

01:04:54   And in fact, after their September event

01:04:56   introducing new phones, they almost eradicated

01:05:00   all mention of it from apple.com.

01:05:02   - But it's still on the instruction book

01:05:04   for the XS and the XR, which is remarkable for me.

01:05:06   - It is, that is the most prominent mention

01:05:09   airpower in 2018 is in the get it start getting started. I think you're the one who pointed that

01:05:15   out on Twitter. At least you're the one who pointed it out that I noticed, which is rather

01:05:19   remarkable. And you know that Apple pays an awful lot of attention to like the things like the

01:05:26   Getting Started guide that ships with iPhones. Everything in that box is so fully considered

01:05:33   right up to the top levels of the company. So that's deliberate and it certainly is a suggestion

01:05:41   that maybe it is still coming. I do not think it is coming in calendar year 2018 because as we

01:05:49   record it is November 18 and US Thanksgiving holiday is this week. I don't know when Apple

01:06:00   effectively shuts down, but it is not going to be, you know, it's not the week to release

01:06:06   new products.

01:06:07   Jared Ranerel There's only one December product I can remember,

01:06:10   and that's the smart battery case for the iPhone 7. That's the only thing I can remember

01:06:13   coming out into December.

01:06:14   Dave Asprey Right, and that's one of the weirdest products

01:06:17   in Apple history. It was, I loved it. It was, because it was so quirky, and it was in so

01:06:23   many ways a very good product, but it was very unusual, and it wasn't meant to

01:06:27   Jared Ranerel It was function over form, and it drove a

01:06:29   lot of people crazy for it.

01:06:30   - Very much, it is truly,

01:06:32   it is probably the most function over form device

01:06:35   in the entire Johnny Ive era of Apple.

01:06:38   Maybe even in Apple company history, honestly.

01:06:42   I don't even know what else to compare it to,

01:06:45   but you're right though, it came out at a weird time.

01:06:48   The original AirPods came out at a weird time.

01:06:50   They weren't supposed to, they were supposed to ship,

01:06:54   ideally, probably alongside the iPhones that year,

01:06:57   in September or early October.

01:06:59   And Apple even released at the time a statement.

01:07:04   I forget if it was given to one outlet or what,

01:07:08   but they had a brief press release that just said,

01:07:11   "Look, AirPods are very difficult to manufacture

01:07:15   "and we're only gonna release them when they're ready

01:07:18   "and they're not ready yet.

01:07:19   "We're working as hard as we can

01:07:20   "and they'll be out as soon as we can

01:07:22   "and we think you're gonna love them."

01:07:24   Something like that.

01:07:25   In other words, they're late

01:07:27   because they're hard to manufacture.

01:07:29   you know, the truth, right? It's, you know, but they did end up start dribbling into customers'

01:07:36   hands in like mid-December. And it was hard to get them for Christmas. So in theory, you

01:07:43   know, could air power ship silently, quietly in mid-December or something, early December?

01:07:50   It could. I'm not going to say it can't happen. I wouldn't say it's entirely unprecedented.

01:07:55   I don't I would I would bet that it isn't gonna happen

01:07:58   To me. It's either a 2019 thing or it is going to get killed or

01:08:04   a it'll come out exactly as

01:08:06   described in

01:08:09   Sometime in 2019 who knows early or late or whatever?

01:08:12   B it is going to change and what they will ship is going to be different than what was shown last year

01:08:20   Or see they're gonna kill this thing

01:08:23   And it's just never in there just it's gonna be something we just don't talk about we don't talk about air power

01:08:28   Yeah, it's interesting because there's a bunch of products. I would have expected like I would have expected maybe the second generation

01:08:35   Airpods maybe the inductive case. I know that's that's commingled with air power, but just they could have released

01:08:42   What sweat resistant air pods if they'd wanted well they could have been on the agenda

01:08:48   We didn't get coffee like updates for a bunch of the max still it's just it's very strange

01:08:52   sort of an end of the year vibe.

01:08:54   - Well, and I really do wonder

01:08:56   how that ties into AirPods.

01:09:00   Now, AirPods are, along with the pencil,

01:09:04   and I feel like they're almost like sibling products

01:09:06   because they're, like I said 10 minutes ago,

01:09:08   they're these tiny little computers

01:09:09   that you would never think of as computers.

01:09:12   And they're just such a joy to use.

01:09:13   I've never lost mine.

01:09:16   I still have my original pair from whenever they came out.

01:09:21   and my battery life on them is still tremendous.

01:09:23   I have, and it was funny this week,

01:09:27   at some point in the last week,

01:09:29   I have the Pixel 3 and I have,

01:09:32   I bought Apple's USB-C to 3.5 millimeter headphone jack.

01:09:36   I don't know why, again, I just piss money away

01:09:40   at the Apple store, it's like, oh, $9, I'll buy that.

01:09:42   I bought a USB-C to headphone jack

01:09:45   that I plan never to use.

01:09:47   (laughing)

01:09:48   Just to see it.

01:09:49   So, you know. - Just to have one.

01:09:51   - Yeah, they didn't give me one with the,

01:09:52   they didn't give any of the reviewers one with things.

01:09:55   So, I bought one and I have Googles

01:09:58   and they both work everywhere.

01:10:00   You know, I can plug, you know, there's no difference.

01:10:02   But you know, they both, any device I have with USB-C,

01:10:06   a MacBook, an iPad Pro, my Pixel 3,

01:10:10   I can plug either one into any of those USB-C jacks

01:10:13   and put headphones in and it just works.

01:10:16   The problem I had is I couldn't find a pair of headphones

01:10:18   with a 3.5 millimeter jack.

01:10:21   I really couldn't.

01:10:22   I used to, I feel like I had hundreds of them.

01:10:27   Because it's like with review units,

01:10:30   Apple doesn't want the headphones back.

01:10:32   They've never actually told me this,

01:10:33   but they don't, I send the phones back,

01:10:36   I don't send the headphones back.

01:10:38   'Cause what are they gonna do with old, gross headphones?

01:10:41   So I had headphones from every iPad, or iPod, I'm sorry,

01:10:47   iPod. Those are long gone though. But in recent years, when Apple was still shipping iPhones

01:10:53   with a traditional headphone jack, I'd buy myself a phone every year. I would get a review

01:10:59   unit starting with like around the iPhone 4 with Verizon. And then as the years went

01:11:05   on, they'd started, you know, I'd get two review units because I'd have the big

01:11:08   one and a small one. So I get like three a year and my wife would get a new iPhone every

01:11:12   year. So we were like accumulating and my son has, you know, doesn't get an iPhone every year,

01:11:17   but he had a couple. We had a whole stockpile surplus of Apple. And my son has systematically

01:11:24   destroyed them all. Just destroyed them by watching, using them to watch YouTube on his

01:11:35   MacBook or and or I guess sometimes plugging them into his phone.

01:11:41   My wife has gone through a few because those AirPods, the old wired AirPods were notoriously

01:11:48   not sweat proof and she destroyed some by using them at the gym. And at our old house,

01:11:57   we had kitchen chairs. Again, I don't know why the hell we didn't just throw the damn chairs out,

01:12:01   but we had these kitchen chairs with two things that stuck up off the back, sort of like a school

01:12:07   size chair and they had two things that stuck up the back that the only function of them

01:12:13   was to snag headphone cables. And it would hurt. It would be like a big drop out of your

01:12:18   ear. So she broke a few pairs. But it's my son who's the main culprit. And I didn't even

01:12:24   realize this and I would just every time he'd like run low and see like, Dad, I need you

01:12:28   know, do you have any extra headphones and I go down my office and find, you know, go

01:12:32   through my old iPhone boxes and yet they were I could open any and there was a time when

01:12:36   I could open any of those boxes and there it is inside a brand new, you know, never

01:12:41   used pair of Apple Air pods or ear pods. I went down a couple weeks ago and I started

01:12:50   going through boxes and they're all gone. And I finally found one and it was one of

01:12:53   the ones, remember when they used to ship in a really nice clear plastic case?

01:12:56   Jared Polin Yeah, yeah.

01:12:57   Dave Asprey And I gave them to him and I thought, I wonder

01:13:00   where the rest of mine are. And then I spent some time this week and I realized they're

01:13:03   all gone. And I gave I kind of regret giving him my last pair. It seems like something

01:13:07   I've the pack rat in me wishes I kept one pair, but I went through all these boxes,

01:13:13   dozens and dozens of phone boxes, and they're all gone. So I couldn't I had a hard time.

01:13:18   I actually wound up I didn't even test them with Apple or earbuds I have. Eventually,

01:13:26   it was like, well, stop looking for those and find some other pair of headphones. And

01:13:29   I have an old pair of Shure over the ear ear things that they weren't noise canceling but they

01:13:36   like were sealing so they were like my old years ago airplane ear earpods so I use those anyway

01:13:43   it was a long digression but anyway the point of it was it makes me wonder for all of my affection

01:13:53   for air pods everybody was sort of anticipating that there might be new ones this year yeah and

01:13:57   And I wonder if the holdup is related to air power,

01:14:02   that they don't wanna ship new air pods

01:14:07   without the new case,

01:14:10   but they can't ship a case that advertises wireless charging

01:14:16   with air power, which isn't shipping.

01:14:19   - Yeah, what are you supposed to do, buy a second Mophie

01:14:21   or just put them on the side of your iPad

01:14:22   and hope for the best?

01:14:24   - Well, yeah, I don't think they're gonna charge

01:14:26   on the iPad magnetic part.

01:14:28   I'm almost certain they weren't going to charge,

01:14:31   and Apple was a little vague about this last year,

01:14:33   like what used Qi, the standard, and what was proprietary.

01:14:36   Apple Watch clearly doesn't use Qi.

01:14:38   It uses its own proprietary inductive charging.

01:14:41   - It's Qi Plus, it's like Qi Plus,

01:14:43   you can, I've had some people fool it

01:14:45   by putting special magnets with a Qi charger,

01:14:48   but it is cheap, it's sort of like Qi Plus Plus or something.

01:14:51   - I get that, and I do remember talking to people

01:14:54   Apple about it. And you know, they're never going to like, they're not going to explain

01:14:58   it. They're not going to tell you exactly what's in the secret sauce. But yeah, the

01:15:02   idea that it was cheap plus was sort of the explanation and even publicly, I think when

01:15:08   when Schiller introduced it, he even said that, you know, look, we're using the cheese

01:15:12   standard. We've come we want to do things the cheese standard doesn't support. And so

01:15:17   we've we've made these but we want to contribute those things back to the standards group.

01:15:23   You know that they weren't hope they weren't trying to keep it proprietary

01:15:27   they just needed to do things that had to be proprietary because the

01:15:30   Sticking to the standards wouldn't wouldn't allow it to work. So I can't help but think though that the the lightning

01:15:36   Are not lightning the the non lightning the air pods that charge

01:15:40   Inductively we're not using the Chi standard that it would be like the watch like Chi plus because I don't think something that small can use

01:15:47   the Chi standard

01:15:49   Yeah

01:15:51   But anyway, it makes me wonder this thing. Isn't that crazy though?

01:15:53   They think that the air pods have been held up by a totally unrelated not unrelated. But yeah, totally separate

01:15:58   I mean, I who knows I don't know well then but if they shipped air pods, too

01:16:02   And then three months later shipped air power need to buy new case for your pods, too

01:16:07   And the people get upset again. Yeah. Well, and did you see that there was a rumor this week that

01:16:12   Somebody some supply chain leaker who had a photo of a bunch supposedly new air pod cases. Yeah

01:16:19   Says that it's still gonna ship in 2018 the air air pod - yeah

01:16:24   I mean again like we've had December stuff, but it's just rare and I think it's super inconvenient for holiday shoppers

01:16:29   Well, yeah, and you know and I said, you know, I pointed out that like hey a lot of people I've already started buying gifts

01:16:36   Yeah, it goes into high gear the day after Thanksgiving next week. That's Black Friday

01:16:40   You know the day when people go absolutely nuts buying stuff. So

01:16:45   How many you know, I don't know millions

01:16:48   I don't know if millions might be too big a number but hundreds and hundreds of thousands of

01:16:51   AirPods will be purchased and then if Apple comes out with new ones in December

01:16:56   I mean and people point out well, you know, they have a very generous holiday

01:17:01   return policy, you know where you can buy a holiday gift for somebody in mid-november and

01:17:07   They don't because they don't get it till you know, December 25th or something like that

01:17:11   that they can take it back in January

01:17:13   and there's no questions asked.

01:17:15   So anybody who got old AirPods and new AirPods come out

01:17:19   could exchange them, but that's a pain in the butt, right?

01:17:22   I mean, nobody likes, like, you know, here's your cool--

01:17:26   - It's expensive for Apple.

01:17:27   - Right, it's very expensive for Apple.

01:17:29   Like why would Apple want to do this?

01:17:31   Why would they want angry customers

01:17:32   and why would they want to deal with the expense

01:17:34   of all these return things?

01:17:35   Like in theory, if they could have shipped

01:17:38   a new second generation AirPods this year, the latest I think they could have done it

01:17:44   would be to announce them at the end of October event and say whether they were ready to ship

01:17:49   at that moment or not, say they're coming in the next few weeks and then everybody would

01:17:54   know to wait. And if sales of existing AirPods plummet because everybody's waiting, it's

01:18:02   all good because Apple is going to get the money when they buy them when they shipped

01:18:06   anyway. So it doesn't matter.

01:18:07   - And Apple would have known that,

01:18:08   and they would have ramped down hard

01:18:09   on AirPod production in preparation for it.

01:18:11   - Right, I just can't help but think that,

01:18:12   and you can't help but think that they would have had them

01:18:15   ready to give to reviewers too,

01:18:17   'cause like, you know, back when the original AirPod shipped

01:18:20   they had prototype AirPods,

01:18:22   they didn't look like prototypes, they looked identical.

01:18:25   But, or pre-production I guess would be a better way

01:18:29   to put it, not prototype.

01:18:30   Pre-production AirPods that looked like the production ones,

01:18:33   but the production ones weren't ready,

01:18:34   but they gave them to us to review,

01:18:36   in September. They would have done that too, I would think.

01:18:40   And there's a huge, it doesn't look like there's any lack of supply. There's a huge supply

01:18:44   and a bunch of different discounts at different retailers. So they look, they look stocked

01:18:48   for the holidays. So I, it just seems to me like people, and I just know it, I asked on

01:18:52   Twitter weeks ago, months ago, I forget what at this point, like, hey, you know, the quick

01:18:56   Twitter poll, how many people are thinking about buying AirPods, either your first pair

01:19:01   or a new pair but aren't because you're holding off for a next generation. And it was, you know,

01:19:07   my followers are not really indicative of the world at large, but at least among my followers,

01:19:13   yeah, there were like lots and lots of people who were like, yeah, that's me.

01:19:15   I either want to get my first pair or I need to buy a replacement pair. And I'm waiting and

01:19:23   they're waiting and waiting and waiting. Yeah, it's a very weird situation for a terrific,

01:19:30   terrific product, right? I feel like it's in this weird Neverland. And I can't and it popped into

01:19:37   my head this week as something to really think about because of the joy of charging the pencil

01:19:42   wirelessly. Yeah, like charging the AirPods isn't onerous, right? Because I have lightning cables

01:19:50   all over the place. And so you just stick them into lightning every once in a while when you

01:19:53   think about it. But man, having a mat where you could put them would be even better because then

01:19:59   and they'd always be charged.

01:20:00   - It's sort of, this is a complete tangent,

01:20:02   but I keep getting asked, is it safe to buy iMacs?

01:20:04   Is it safe to buy it before September?

01:20:06   No, is it safe to buy it before October

01:20:08   because people want a new iMac,

01:20:09   but the Coffee Lake ones aren't out yet

01:20:10   and it seems like they could come out at any minute,

01:20:12   so people hesitate and then they wait,

01:20:13   and then when is it finally safe?

01:20:15   'Cause Apple's not gonna update them

01:20:16   and it just becomes a whole thing.

01:20:18   - Yeah, I wouldn't buy an iMac right now.

01:20:20   I probably wouldn't, if I needed it,

01:20:22   I probably wouldn't hesitate to buy an iMac Pro,

01:20:24   even though they're like a year old,

01:20:26   But you know if you need it if you need it you need it. I wouldn't buy a regular iMac though

01:20:30   And xeons are on I think those xeons are still skylight. They're on a whole different schedule. Yeah, it's well intel. Yep

01:20:37   Those poor bastards

01:20:41   I've joked about this, but literally every time I wake I go to sleep

01:20:45   I am afraid that i'll wake up and there'll be a new lake, uh optimization cycle inserted before cannon lake again

01:20:51   I can't there's whiskey lake and amber lake and ice lake. I can't bear to pay attention to it anymore

01:20:57   I really can't it's it doesn't pay to pay attention because it never it never turns out the way that that it said

01:21:04   It's gotten painful. They never hit the road map the road map might as well be like

01:21:09   Map to Mordor in the beginning of the Lord of the Rings. It's fictional

01:21:14   Yeah, it's just made up and they never get there

01:21:19   Anyway, I want to what the other thing I wanted to think about and this popped into my head this week is with you were

01:21:24   Talking about watch bands before yeah, and my favorite

01:21:28   If I could only use one

01:21:30   Apple watch band if I had to pick one and that's you know

01:21:33   It's never coming off the Apple watch that I wear it would be the woven nylon band

01:21:38   Yeah, I find that to be the best combination of comfortable and I like the way it looks I like the way it feels

01:21:44   I like everything about it

01:21:46   It's the track pants of watch bands. I just I love it. I just love I know and I'm a fan of you know, NATO style

01:21:52   Yeah, watch straps on my you know, traditional watches - I just like the look

01:21:57   But curiously to me in the fall

01:22:01   2018

01:22:03   You know fashion lineup of new watch straps the woven nylon ones are out of the lineup

01:22:09   You can buy them but they're like, you know, like secondhand stuff on eBay or whatever

01:22:14   The loops are still there, but the buckles are all gone. Yep, so that they've seemingly at the

01:22:20   sporty

01:22:23   Sporty end of the market other than the you know that the

01:22:27   The trip what would you mark the new some sport? Yeah spanned

01:22:32   the rubber

01:22:34   Rubberly default ban for elastomer floral elastomer. I thank you for thinking that um, you know the one that is the iconic Apple watch strap

01:22:44   The sport loop I think is what they call it the velcro one is the yes, that's the that's you know

01:22:50   And it's been alright, you know, they came out with that last year

01:22:52   But at this point it is sort of like the at the sporty end of apples lineup. That's that's that's the one

01:22:59   At the premium end

01:23:03   ignoring the

01:23:05   Hermes stuff at the premium end

01:23:07   I

01:23:08   Feel like the one that's the most popular and I also feel like Apple is pushing it and I feel like they're pushing

01:23:14   it because it's popular is the Milanese loop. And I just happen to see it. When I

01:23:20   see somebody with a stainless steel Apple watch, more often than not, male or female,

01:23:26   it's often with the Milanese. It seems very popular. My wife swears by it, absolutely

01:23:32   adores the Milanese. The curious thing to me, though, is with the Milanese and the velcro

01:23:40   sport loop. They're both closed loops. So when you take them off, they remain a loop,

01:23:48   which I think wouldn't work with air power as described. Like air power to me was described

01:23:55   as you'd have to put the watch, you know, the way that you know, the back ceramic back

01:24:00   of the watch has to touch the pad. Yeah. So I find that very curious that the the watch

01:24:06   straps that Apple is pushing the most this year are seemingly ones that are not compatible with

01:24:11   using it with the AirPower. Yeah, and there was no indication. Like when Apple put out the previous

01:24:17   charger, they had a—you could always get the cable that came with the watch, but they made their own

01:24:21   charging disk, and you could push up the middle of it to become vertical so you could put the loops

01:24:25   on, and this one had no such provisions. Right, right. And that's—in fact, we have one in our

01:24:30   our bedroom because like I said, my wife is a devoted fan of the Milanese and it's having

01:24:36   that pad that has the pop-up thing so you can put it on sideways is the only way to

01:24:41   do it. And you know me, I actually have it on today, the link bracelet, which Apple seemingly

01:24:49   has sort of quietly—I don't think they've ever discontinued it. You can still buy it,

01:24:56   but they've de-emphasized it.

01:24:58   Yeah, and they didn't make the gold version like they did for the Milanese. No, there is no there is no gold

01:25:04   Yeah, there's a there's a the whatever the 2018 gold shade is

01:25:08   2018 Apple gold stainless steel has a Milanese and does not have a corresponding link bracelet

01:25:15   Yeah, so I don't know what the deal is with that

01:25:17   But the link bracelet certainly wouldn't work on the airpower without disconnecting the link

01:25:23   You know, you there's it's not too tricky to do. It's part of the genius of Apple's link design

01:25:28   that you can break out of the loop,

01:25:30   but you don't wanna do that every day.

01:25:33   - Well, I have the Cuff,

01:25:34   well, the first Hermes watch that came with the Cuff,

01:25:36   and that was only out for the first generation,

01:25:38   and they haven't repeated it.

01:25:39   And unless you use the cable charger,

01:25:41   you can't put it on the disc

01:25:42   because there's too much leather,

01:25:44   and you can't put it on the stand.

01:25:46   It just doesn't work anyway,

01:25:46   and I'd have to pull it off every time.

01:25:48   And I think that's probably why they didn't continue it.

01:25:51   - Yeah, it just sort of seems like the balance between,

01:25:55   hey, we have some cool ideas for bands and straps,

01:25:58   and we have certain needs for how to charge this thing

01:26:03   haven't always been compatible, is basically what I see.

01:26:08   And the other thought that pops into my head is,

01:26:10   and I know, I don't think AirPower is secretly

01:26:13   better than it was promised, I'm sure.

01:26:16   I mean, this is years in the future.

01:26:18   But my pet bugaboo about calling inductive charging

01:26:22   wireless charging when it has to be in contact,

01:26:25   Whereas in theory, true wireless charging,

01:26:28   where the charging would work the way that Wi-Fi

01:26:31   is truly wireless networking,

01:26:33   would be fantastic for the watch.

01:26:34   Again, even if the range was just six inches,

01:26:40   that would be great though.

01:26:41   You could just put a charger on your drawer,

01:26:44   your dresser or something like that,

01:26:45   and then just put the watch within a foot

01:26:47   or something like that and have it charged,

01:26:48   that would be fantastic.

01:26:50   - I mean, Qualcomm, a bunch of companies

01:26:52   have patents for that, just like they have patents

01:26:53   for inductive charging through metal,

01:26:55   having a patent and actually getting a product on market that works. So different.

01:26:59   Yeah. Don't you think too, I would like to think that if, if air power ever actually does ship,

01:27:06   I would like to think that the Apple pencil could charge on it too, but maybe not.

01:27:09   I was wondering about that. Yeah.

01:27:11   Right. But maybe not because of the magnets. Like, I don't think air power has the magnets,

01:27:16   but I guess they're somehow getting over that with the watch. Right. The watch.

01:27:20   Yeah. You know, that's probably the complexity is that they need to,

01:27:23   it's not just that they have to take three very different power profiles, but three different

01:27:27   connection methodologies. Right. Yeah. And you know, with the watch chargers, whether it's

01:27:33   sustained, you know, they're all the same, the actual charging part, whether it's the pad or,

01:27:38   you know, the just the circle, the disk at the end of a cable, they all precisely align, you connect

01:27:44   it, you know, you get it near the back of your watch, and the magnet snap it right into place

01:27:48   perfectly. And when you put the pencil on top of your iPad, it snaps perfectly in the place,

01:27:53   it wants to be in the right position. So that's all back arrays. They're just so happy with those.

01:27:58   It's like Death Star tractor beams. I don't know how they, but if all these things need these

01:28:03   tractor beams to get the magnetic tractor beams to get everything precisely aligned,

01:28:07   I have no idea how air power was ever going to work. Like I honestly, I don't have any real

01:28:12   inside info on this other than whispers that boy, this product, this product has had a lot of

01:28:18   problems and should not have been promised when it was—it wasn't in a state to be

01:28:25   delivered when they thought it was going to be. Somebody gave a very optimistic estimation

01:28:29   of, "Ah, we've got the X, Y, and Z problems to solve, but we can do it. We're Apple."

01:28:34   And X, Y, and Z were really hard problems.

01:28:36   Ben de la Torre-E

01:28:43   Yes, the magnetics and the but you can only put two phones you couldn't put three phones

01:28:47   Which I guess was a limit of the power of the overall device. Yes. I believe that was true too. Yes

01:28:51   Yeah, and it was opposed to just have the different size coils and positioning so that you didn't have to be too fussy with the

01:28:57   Phones but the watch and the cases would adjust would lock into place

01:29:01   But that anything that you're not in charge of implementing is super easy to do

01:29:05   Yeah, it's probably all fell apart in the actual implementation. Yeah, so I don't know

01:29:09   I don't know what the heck is going I think it's such a weird

01:29:11   And if they had never announced it if they had just never announced air power

01:29:15   I feel like people would feel so much better about buying like new air pods today

01:29:19   Even though I know I know there are other features that are supposedly coming to new air pods like noise cancellation and and always on

01:29:27   Hey Siri listening, so you don't have to tap your ears, you know, I'm sure there's all sorts of cool ideas

01:29:32   They could have for air pods. It's not just the charging case, but I feel like it's that charging case

01:29:36   That's keeping people from buying air pods now

01:29:38   - Yeah.

01:29:39   - And I think you heard this too,

01:29:40   but my understanding was it was supposed to be

01:29:42   like this Halo product, the same way that AirPods were

01:29:45   with the lack of a 3.5 millimeter headphone jack

01:29:47   to show Apple's commitment, like a little bit of strutting,

01:29:50   but to show their commitment to the technology.

01:29:52   And this was supposed to highlight

01:29:54   that they were doing inductive charging,

01:29:56   but they were super committed to not only doing it,

01:29:58   but making it useful and pushing it forward.

01:30:00   - Yeah, yeah, no, I heard that too.

01:30:02   It is one of the strangest products in my career

01:30:07   following Apple, just in terms of how weird it is for them to announce something and then

01:30:12   be unable to ship it. I mean, even the only other thing I can think of that was quite

01:30:15   like this was the white iPod iPhone 4. Yeah. Was it the iPhone 4 or the 3GS? I think it

01:30:21   was the 4. The 4, yeah, because they couldn't get the glass, it was obstructing the sensors.

01:30:27   Yeah, it was very strange and it ended up not shipping until, like, that was when the

01:30:32   phones were coming out at WWDC in June, or at least they were announced there and then

01:30:36   they'd ship it like the end of June,

01:30:38   and it didn't even come out until like May.

01:30:40   So it was like six weeks before people thought

01:30:43   maybe the iPhone 4S would come out.

01:30:45   Now the iPhone 4S didn't come out in June of that year

01:30:48   because that was the one that changed to a fall schedule.

01:30:52   But still, 11 months after it was announced

01:30:55   is a very strange delay.

01:30:57   - Yeah, the only other thing I can think of

01:30:58   is when Steve Jobs did that statement about the Intel Switch

01:31:01   when he said, "We've wanted to be able to give you

01:31:02   "the Power Mac with the G4,

01:31:04   We wanted to be able to give you the power book with the G4 and we just haven't been

01:31:08   able to do it.

01:31:09   All right, moving on.

01:31:10   How about this?

01:31:12   The iPad OS argument in terms of—and this—Merlin and I talked about it last week on this show,

01:31:22   and there's a lot of people who were like, "Yes, everything you guys said is what drives

01:31:25   me nuts.

01:31:26   This OS is just not meant for multitasking."

01:31:31   And you know, like, Steven Troughton Smith, who loves the iPad and multitasking, like

01:31:35   tweeted, he was listening to our show and just felt like he was listening to two guys

01:31:40   from 20 years ago talk about how the, you know, gooey is never going to take over the

01:31:43   command line. And I get it. And that's why I try not to be, I really try to keep as open

01:31:49   to mind as I can. But man, the more I dig into it, the more frustrated I get with multitasking

01:31:55   on the iPad. There are some crazy, crazy things. And again, I'm coming out from the perspective

01:32:01   someone who generally is thinking about it with at least when I'm multitasking when I have two things

01:32:05   on screen it's with a keyboard I'm using too and the way command tab works on the ipad is insane

01:32:11   it is it it it it should be as an operating system interface it should be committed it is it is

01:32:17   insane like but like all right so if you have messages on screen full screen and then you go

01:32:24   to your dock and you drag notes out of the dock to do multitasking and you make it a split screen

01:32:30   thing and now you've got messages on one side and notes on the other. When you go to Command

01:32:34   Tab, Notes doesn't show up in the Command Tab switcher because you didn't tap it to

01:32:40   launch it. You dragged it out of the dock into multitasking. So it doesn't register

01:32:46   in the Command Tab switcher. You go to Command Tab, here's a list of your most recently used

01:32:51   apps and the one you just opened, Notes, the one you might have just been typing in right

01:32:56   now the one that might currently have input focus from the keyboard doesn't show up. It's

01:33:00   insane. It's absolutely insane. It's not a bug. It seems like a bug, but you watch it.

01:33:09   It's deterministic. It's because you didn't tap it to launch it. It's because you dragged

01:33:13   it out of the dock. But that's insane. It's a huge oversight. It's not a bug, but it's

01:33:19   a huge oversight. And there's a completely different app switcher when you use your finger

01:33:25   and drag up and go to the overview where…

01:33:29   It's like mission control.

01:33:32   Yeah.

01:33:33   It's insane that there's one switcher for using your finger to swipe up to get to

01:33:41   and a completely different switcher in a completely different order when you do Command-Tab.

01:33:46   Command-Tab should obviously bring up the same thing you get when you swipe up from

01:33:51   the bottom.

01:33:52   It's insane.

01:33:53   You could just see like a so I there's this huge problem in tech support and I've talked about this before is that people tend to

01:33:59   Tell you solutions

01:33:59   They want rather than problems that they have and you might have way better ways of solving their problems than just listening to their endless

01:34:05   List of solutions and this is sort of that just like, you know, let's just give the computer people command tab

01:34:10   You know, they're used to it from the Mac. We'll just do it and that's always the wrong answer

01:34:13   And yeah, it's super frustrating when it takes three years for copy/paste and ten years effectively for drag-and-drop

01:34:19   But when they actually do go in and take the same problem and come to an iPad native solution

01:34:26   It always works better than when they try to transplant something from the Mac into iOS

01:34:30   And there's all sorts of ways like sometimes if you have

01:34:34   Keyboard focus in an app and then you command tab away and then you command tab back the focus sometimes sometimes it's still there

01:34:42   And sometimes it's gone and you have to tap again where you want to be typing like that's insane

01:34:47   It is you can't just change focus like if you're on the keyboard

01:34:50   There's no way to change focus between the two apps that you're using. No

01:34:53   Even though they're both right there. Yeah, it is so clearly

01:34:57   It makes a lot of sense when you're hand holding the iPad and you're entirely using the touchscreen. Yeah, it makes some sense

01:35:06   I don't think it's a great multitasking system. I don't think the interface for having two things on screen once is

01:35:12   That I don't like it

01:35:14   I really hope Apple has these rumors that iOS 12 was going to have a major iPad interface

01:35:23   change for power users, and it got scuttled on the basis of, "Hey, let's just focus

01:35:27   iOS 12 on being faster and more stable and punt a year on this."

01:35:33   There's rampant rumors that that was true.

01:35:36   So I know every podcast in the universe is talking about their ideas, their hopes for


01:35:41   Well, the engineers that you would imagine would be working on that were retasked to

01:35:43   to work on the performance and they can't do both

01:35:45   at the same time.

01:35:46   - So, you know, who knows what they have in mind.

01:35:48   My hope would be that this would be a lot more

01:35:50   of a rethink than just adding more on.

01:35:54   I really kind of, I would like to,

01:35:56   but on the other hand, I know there's people who love it,

01:35:59   say they love it, at least the way it is,

01:36:01   and you can't yank that away, I don't think?

01:36:04   - Well, I mean, they've changed so many,

01:36:06   they completely changed the way that it worked.

01:36:08   I think it was an iOS 10 and people had no idea

01:36:10   how to pull apps onto the side anymore.

01:36:12   So I think it's new enough

01:36:13   that you can still mess around with it.

01:36:15   But getting it to that point for me is super interesting

01:36:20   because when they did the Apple Watch,

01:36:22   they didn't just transplant springboard.

01:36:24   I mean, they made the carousel interface,

01:36:27   but that's been buried over time.

01:36:28   And it's sort of like you can't take the expectations

01:36:33   you have from an iPhone

01:36:33   and just put them on every device size.

01:36:35   And with the Apple TV, yeah, it still has that,

01:36:38   I forget what they call it, pine board or headboard

01:36:41   that looks like icons, but really they're moving you

01:36:43   towards the TV app interface, because that's better.

01:36:46   And the iPod is the worst offender with this

01:36:48   in that it really did just have a big iPhone interface

01:36:51   when it's clearly not suited to the big screen

01:36:53   and it hasn't had the benefit

01:36:55   of getting its own interface layer the way the watch has

01:36:57   or the TV has and it feels past due.

01:36:59   - Yeah, it really does.

01:37:01   And when you have a keyboard connected,

01:37:04   to me it really shows.

01:37:05   It can be very, very frustrating at times

01:37:08   with the inability to control input focus

01:37:13   and stuff like that.

01:37:14   - Just give me like Quicksilver or Alfred

01:37:16   where I type tweet @JohnGruber at lunch today,

01:37:20   and it just does it all.

01:37:21   I mean, like Palm's had that, Blackberry's had that.

01:37:23   It's an understandable paradigm.

01:37:26   - It is true.

01:37:26   Spotlight is a lifesaver for launching apps on the iPad

01:37:30   because you can't, you still can't,

01:37:31   like they do have a command H.

01:37:33   I think that this is follow-up from a couple of weeks ago.

01:37:35   I think I might've misspoken on the show

01:37:37   and said that there's no way to go home on a keyboard.

01:37:40   Except for some of these third-party keyboards

01:37:42   that have a home button.

01:37:43   Like some of the third-party keyboards have an actual,

01:37:45   like old school, you know,

01:37:47   remember when iPhones had home buttons?

01:37:49   - Yeah.

01:37:50   (laughing)

01:37:50   - They have a home button, but Command + H works.

01:37:53   If not everywhere, it should work everywhere

01:37:57   in terms of you can always go home.

01:37:58   But then once you go home and you're on the keyboard,

01:38:00   there's nothing you can do.

01:38:01   You can't arrow around to select icons.

01:38:04   - And again, like there's focus UI on the Apple TV

01:38:07   that lets you use a Siri remote to select things on iOS,

01:38:10   but where it would make sense on the iPad, it's not there.

01:38:14   - Yeah, it really would to me is to be able to go home

01:38:17   and then what I would like to be able to do

01:38:19   is make it a lot more like the Finder,

01:38:21   where you can, maybe by default you go home,

01:38:24   there is no selection,

01:38:26   but then as soon as you start touching arrow keys,

01:38:28   it would make a selection and it would make the selection

01:38:30   by popping it up off the screen like Apple TV.

01:38:34   And then you could go left to go left across the grid,

01:38:36   you could go down to go down,

01:38:39   and then you could type the first letter of an app

01:38:41   that's on screen right now, and it would jump to that app.

01:38:44   So if I type P, it would highlight PCALC,

01:38:48   and it would pop off the screen.

01:38:50   Like, I don't understand why you can't do that.

01:38:52   Like the Mac--

01:38:53   - Or like they have the minus one home screen,

01:38:54   they've had it for a while in iOS,

01:38:56   when you swipe to the side, and it's got a text field

01:38:58   where you can start typing search terms,

01:39:00   it's got machine learned app recommendations,

01:39:02   which are likely the apps you're gonna wanna use,

01:39:04   and it's got a bunch of informational widgets

01:39:06   represent you with the things that it believes are the most important right now. And it feels

01:39:10   like if you just start sliding that over to be the default home screen and let me page

01:39:14   over to a set of apps if I really want to, I would be a lot faster on the iPad.

01:39:18   Tom Bilyeu: Yeah. So the interface that does work best with the keyboard is Command + Space

01:39:23   to go to Spotlight because you can just start typing and you can use the arrow keys afterwards

01:39:29   to select things from the results. So if I do command space and type S-A-F, I get Safari.

01:39:36   So, you know, so you could type your shortcut names right into there and just start executing

01:39:41   things. Spot. Yeah, that would be nice. That would be like the modern command line. Yeah.

01:39:46   So spotlight is very nicely hooked up to the keyboard, but it only just exacerbates how much

01:39:53   else of the OS isn't. It all feels very tacked on, in my opinion. It needs a lot of love.

01:40:01   And it really shouldn't feel like a big iPhone. And we're too many years into this, right?

01:40:12   There's no excuse because the iPad's still new or whatever. It's not new. I mean, for God's sake,

01:40:19   Steve Jobs showed it off. I mean, it's eight years old. When the Mac was eight years old,

01:40:26   it was 1992, and the Mac had an incredibly rich ecosystem of apps and industries like

01:40:34   the entire graphic design industry had to—in eight years, the entire graphic design industry

01:40:40   and printing industry had completely switched to a Macintosh-based workflow for designers

01:40:48   to printing and, you know, whole industries went around it and the interface conventions

01:40:56   were the same. Like, it wasn't like, oh, but to get powerful stuff like Photoshop and Illustrator

01:41:02   and Quark, we've got to really rethink the OS at a fundamental level. No, the OS at a

01:41:07   fundamental level was exactly the same as 1984. I mean, they added the issues, but the

01:41:13   basic concepts were the same.

01:41:15   I think one of the issues is Apple TV has a whole org under any queue that just works on on Apple TV interface and

01:41:21   Watch has a whole group of people under

01:41:24   Jeff Williams and Kevin Lynch that just work on the watch but there is no iPad group effectively

01:41:30   There's no like yes

01:41:31   You are the people in charge of iPhone interface and and springboard and all there's just a springboard team and a lot of the time

01:41:36   Their attention gets sucked into iPhone because that's that's where all the money in the volume is

01:41:40   Yeah, and I wrote about this I really I wrote about it in the context of Apple's quarterly results and how you know

01:41:47   how the Macintosh out

01:41:49   Out revenued to make up over the iPad

01:41:53   you know iPad sold more units, but the Mac made more money and

01:41:57   You know that warms my heart as a guy who's you know favorite platform of all of apples is the Mac

01:42:04   But for all the consternation out there among Mac

01:42:08   people who are worried that quote-unquote Tim Cook wants everybody to just use an iPad for everything and that the Mac is going to be

01:42:15   phased out and the you know

01:42:17   They're just gonna have this one iOS platform and everything will be running, you know

01:42:23   You know the future of the iMac is a giant 30 inch iPad or something for all of that consternation and all of Apple's

01:42:30   Hey, the Mac isn't going anywhere, you know, the big Craig Federighi slide at WWDC. Are we gonna merge these two platforms?

01:42:37   No, right like giant 80-foot letters and a period

01:42:42   Yeah, I I almost feel looking at this and really studying the iPads interface as a you know

01:42:49   Trying to get it trying to be as much of a power user as I can I

01:42:52   Honestly feel if anybody should be worried. It's the iPad people because it's the iPad that's not getting the love

01:42:58   and I know there's so many people who think that Apple doesn't show enough attention to the Mac and and you know, it's the

01:43:04   It's overlooked in favor of the iPhone. I think the iPad has suffered way more from Apple's

01:43:11   Look, the phone is first phone is you know, the most the most money the most users the most important

01:43:16   It's the iPad that suffered more than the Mac because if the Mac has gotten less attention than we might hope

01:43:23   Engineering and design wise it's already good. It doesn't need yeah, it doesn't need major changes. Whereas the iPad really needs help

01:43:32   Conceptually the iPad gets a lot of hardware attention not as much software attention in the max feels vice versa

01:43:37   Right and that that is a perfect that is so true and that is exactly what is like in my head using this remarkable

01:43:45   iPad pro computing device this

01:43:48   This device put aside the user interface the actual hardware is just it continues to just amaze me like I don't I

01:43:56   Worry sometimes if I you know, I don't want to

01:44:01   Be too effusive in a review if if I'm reviewing this thing and it and I feel like man

01:44:07   I just have good things to say about this and my what am I missing? Right?

01:44:10   But it I almost feel like in my review the iPad Pro I undersold how great the hardware is

01:44:16   Yeah, it's only review the hardware and I got a lot of criticism for not having enough negatives

01:44:21   But I think that's because I just didn't touch on the software at all

01:44:23   I touched a little but I sort of brushed it aside

01:44:26   I think I got some of the same criticism too because it just it is what it is. It's not a story

01:44:30   Yeah, iOS 12 didn't change right? It's not new like that's that's the story

01:44:34   is that it didn't get the love that we were hoping it would get in terms of productivity features and

01:44:39   More sensible ways to be able to arrange multiple apps on screen and stuff like that

01:44:44   Because when you think about with the iPhone introduction, yes, they've already introduced the I/O the version of iOS at WWDC

01:44:50   But there's inevitably features that are unique to the hardware that they get announced alongside it and this iPad didn't have that

01:44:57   It's not like it's a brand new iPad with edge judge and we're announcing this new software stuff that goes with it

01:45:01   I I just there's so many little things. I'm so frustrated. I they've overlooked like in a way that on the phone

01:45:06   I just love the new

01:45:08   Gestures for getting around the system. I just love it and I never I never think about it

01:45:14   And the phone on the iPad it's so overloaded in terms of a little bit gets you

01:45:21   You know, I if I'm not being very careful almost like surgically

01:45:26   Approaching how I raised my finger from the bottom of the screen to get exactly what I want

01:45:30   I end up going home when what I wanted to was to bring up the dock. I

01:45:34   I can do it on purpose. Like if you bet me remember that

01:45:39   The actually I wouldn't want to take this bet now that I think about it. But remember the the Tarantino short film in

01:45:46   The the what was that movie where they took place in a hotel and the bet was you could light the guy can light his

01:45:52   Lighter ten times in a row. Otherwise, he'd lose that finger

01:45:55   Yeah

01:45:57   Three rooms was the name of the enemy and Tarantino's

01:46:00   Like what? I want to bet my finger that I could get the doc to come up and not go home

01:46:05   No, I wouldn't know I would bet $100

01:46:08   I would bet that I could if I'm very careful if I got to be as careful as I wanted to

01:46:11   Could I make the iPad doc come up and not go home? Yeah, I just did it very carefully and it was I got it

01:46:19   But when I'm not thinking about it when I just sort of raised my finger a little bit

01:46:23   Which is what my mindset when I'm working when I'm in the flow, right?

01:46:27   I'm always going home when I wanted to just raise the dock and that's

01:46:31   It's not hard to go back

01:46:33   But it's like jarring if you're writing in notes and you're on in the flow and you're writing like a quick one to bring something

01:46:39   Up and then all of a sudden your notes app is gone

01:46:41   It's very healthy you want to get to that mission control screen?

01:46:44   So you got to pull it up and not go home, but then pull it a second time

01:46:47   I still not go home you really it requires surgical precision and that's that's bad

01:46:53   I mean, I don't know how to say it.

01:46:54   **Matt Stauffer:** It's massively gesture overloaded.

01:46:56   **

01:47:02   there's two ways to bring up a second app. You can lock it in as like, okay, it's either

01:47:08   half or a third of the screen and it's locked in or it's floating over the other app temporarily.

01:47:16   Sometimes I can just flick that app away and sometimes it's like there's no way to

01:47:20   flick it away. I don't know why. I don't understand. Last time I had the notes up temporarily,

01:47:26   I just flipped it off to the side and it disappeared. Now it won't go away. The only way I can

01:47:31   make it go away is to lock it into the screen permanently and then drag the

01:47:36   divider between the two apps to make it go away. Whereas like to close a window

01:47:40   on the Mac I'm never confused. I just hit command W or I click the red button.

01:47:45   That's it. I don't know. I feel like, I don't know. I feel like everybody should

01:47:52   agree that the iPad needs major UI help for multitasking and serious use and we

01:47:59   can obviously disagree on just what that would be. And it's obviously a big there is no

01:48:06   obvious solution, in my opinion, it's going to require Apple to do what what we like Apple

01:48:10   to do best, which is come up with innovative new user interface ideas.

01:48:15   Jared Ranere: Well, my thing like and I wrote about this back in 2015 is that I just want

01:48:19   there to be a team that does pad OS the way there's a team that does watch OS. I told

01:48:23   him that does because then they have to have deliverables every year. If it's just iOS,

01:48:29   can go back and forth between two different devices, which isn't really fair to either

01:48:32   of them.

01:48:33   Yeah, and that kind of comes back to the point of convergence and that people somehow it

01:48:39   sounds great to say that everything should converge to one OS and it would just look

01:48:45   different whether it's a laptop or a tablet or a phone. That sounds great and it's it

01:48:50   in there's a you know, there's certain appeal to the sound of that idea. But in practice,

01:48:55   I don't think that's ever a good idea.

01:48:57   And if anything, I think they should,

01:48:59   what's the opposite of, they should diverge.

01:49:01   - Diverge.

01:49:02   - Right, I would rather see iPad break off into

01:49:07   pad OS or whatever they would call it, iPad OS,

01:49:10   then continue on the current path.

01:49:13   I would rather--

01:49:14   - And it's not an absolute.

01:49:15   I mean, like, Springboard is just a layer.

01:49:18   Like, Backboard, I believe, is remarkably similar

01:49:20   between the different ones.

01:49:21   Core OS is the same between Mac and iOS on many occasions.

01:49:25   and you can have all this infrastructure

01:49:27   that is identical and compatible and provides continuity

01:49:29   and all the inextensibility and all the features

01:49:31   that you want and then just have a team working

01:49:33   on those presentation layers on top of them.

01:49:35   - And I'm not asking for them to turn the iPad into Mac OS.

01:49:39   There's no point, we already have Mac OS.

01:49:42   And I love, in principle, I love the idea

01:49:46   of not having Windows.

01:49:48   Everything is in a window that,

01:49:50   'cause Windows, having a bunch of windows on screen

01:49:52   can get fiddly and they don't quite line up neatly. The way that, effectively a tiling

01:50:00   system where everything is either full screen or half screen or a third screen and it's

01:50:05   all nice and neat and everything is full height and you don't have, it's like look, here's

01:50:09   a window that's about 20 pixels too short to be full height. I guess I'll fix it because

01:50:15   I want, you know, this minor, you know, low-grade OCD wants the extra, you know, pixels. It's

01:50:22   nice that everything snaps into place, you know, in principle. In practice, boy, it's

01:50:28   tough to beat a windowing system.

01:50:29   Steve McLaughlin I would just argue that, like, a lot of people

01:50:32   just want to solve iPad by, like, they just say, "Just give it finder," and they want

01:50:36   to, they are Mac users whose only conception or understanding of how to improve the iPad

01:50:41   is because they're Mac users, so that's entire frame of reference. But the best thing

01:50:44   about iPad to me is that it eschews the baggage of OS X. It keeps a lot of the foundational

01:50:50   parts, but it's a fresh start to computing because there were a lot of really bad decisions

01:50:54   that were made in Unix over the years because the people building it were computer scientists

01:50:58   and not human interface people.

01:51:00   And for most people, I think one of the biggest problems we had at the iPad event, at the

01:51:06   October event, is that Apple put up this slide of iPad sales versus laptop sales. And a bunch

01:51:11   of people said, "Oh, look, it is a laptop," instead of saying, "Oh, look, how many people

01:51:15   are buying the iPad because it is not a laptop."

01:51:17   There's this huge market of people for whom computers are still crypto-crazy stuff that

01:51:23   they just cannot relate to.

01:51:24   It's good that we're rethinking all these things.

01:51:27   It's just we're rethinking them way too slowly.

01:51:29   Yeah.

01:51:30   I feel like the iPad is best for the most people, to be honest, but I think it's at

01:51:36   its best when it's used the most simply.

01:51:39   My wife is a devout iPad user, spends way more time on her iPad than phone and Mac combined.

01:51:47   And she doesn't even know how multitasking works.

01:51:49   I mean, she lives with me.

01:51:50   She knows it is a thing and she has no interest in it.

01:51:52   She goes home, she wants to do mail, she taps mail, mail takes up the full screen.

01:51:57   She wants to go back to Safari.

01:51:59   And she goes home and taps Safari and goes to Safari.

01:52:03   And that simplicity, the way I see people and I know, I know that, you know, Steven

01:52:09   Transmits probably gonna tweet at me because of this episode. I know he's using it and I know Federico is using it

01:52:15   Yeah, and I know Snell is doing some fancy stuff with it

01:52:17   But I actually think if you look at it the people who are using

01:52:21   The making the most use of the multitasking and who swear by it are some of the most advanced users. I

01:52:27   Know they're there, you know, they're the power users among power users and I almost feel like the iPad is like

01:52:36   It's like two polar's there's the the simple use of iPad where it really shines and it's just one app at a time

01:52:42   on-screen like a big phone and people freaking love it and then there's the multitasking stuff and it's so weird and fiddly and

01:52:51   Conceptually non obvious that it only the only people who use it are some of the most advanced users on the planet. I

01:52:58   Think there's a third group, you know

01:53:01   It's and I've talked about this before but like anyone who lives in a village north of you is a northerner

01:53:05   It doesn't matter how far north they are.

01:53:06   Anyone who does similar work to you

01:53:08   or more complicated work in your mind is a pro.

01:53:11   And anybody who does anything else is not a pro.

01:53:13   And if like, if Vitici can use an iPad,

01:53:15   he's obviously not a pro.

01:53:16   And then if you can't do use an iPad,

01:53:18   you're obviously not smart enough to use it.

01:53:19   And it's all this nonsense.

01:53:21   But when Apple has some of these demos

01:53:23   or you just meet people,

01:53:25   there are incredible classes of professionals

01:53:27   from people like the guy who was at the event,

01:53:29   Rob McCullen, who does all of the storyboarding

01:53:32   for Pacific Rim and Star Wars,

01:53:33   and all of that on an iPad Pro.

01:53:35   And yet I forget the name,

01:53:36   but there was a guy who was an architect,

01:53:38   does a lot of the famous, famous celebrity houses.

01:53:41   And he does all of that on an iPad Pro.

01:53:43   And Karim was there from a DJ.

01:53:47   Incredible DJ does all of that on the iPad Pro.

01:53:49   There are a huge swath of developers

01:53:52   who were completely underserved by computers

01:53:54   until something like iPad came on.

01:53:56   People who make as much money as any pro

01:53:59   who are as legitimately any pro,

01:54:00   not traditional computing pros.

01:54:02   The only underserved market now is developers

01:54:04   who's one of the biggest categories of pros

01:54:06   and who still can't develop for iPad on iPad.

01:54:09   But I'm hopeful that,

01:54:10   and I think you got the same Photoshop demo I did

01:54:13   where it's real Photoshop, it's not full Photoshop,

01:54:16   but you can sort of take your environment with you

01:54:18   on the go.

01:54:19   And if Apple would figure out that for Xcode

01:54:22   and let developers use important subsets

01:54:24   of their projects on the go with iPad Pro,

01:54:27   I think we'd see a lot of the pain points sort of disappear.

01:54:29   It doesn't have to be a Mac,

01:54:30   but it has to let you get the stuff done

01:54:32   that you need to get done.

01:54:33   - Yeah, I think, you know, what I would say is that

01:54:39   all of these computers, all of these devices

01:54:41   are at their best when they disappear.

01:54:43   And it's not in your mind that you're using it.

01:54:46   And I feel like the iPad, at some moments,

01:54:49   and in some cases, is the most amazing of these devices.

01:54:54   That when it disappears, it can disappear

01:54:57   for a long stretch of time, you know.

01:55:00   and talking to people who do like illustration on it.

01:55:04   I forget his name, but the guy who's the illustrator

01:55:06   for Penny Arcade just had a blog post about,

01:55:09   about, you know, he's been using an iPad Pro,

01:55:13   I don't know for how much, you know, some, I don't know,

01:55:16   like a year or something, and bought the new one.

01:55:18   And as much as he liked the old one,

01:55:20   he's just blown away by the new one.

01:55:21   But you listen to him talk about it,

01:55:23   and it's like, part of it is that it just,

01:55:25   it's not like using a computer anymore.

01:55:26   It's just, it's just a pencil in his comic,

01:55:31   you know, that the iPad becomes the actual comic.

01:55:35   It's not a device with a comic, it just is the comic.

01:55:39   I think the iPad is so great at that.

01:55:41   But then there's times when you just want

01:55:43   like a big safari window on the left

01:55:45   and a tall, skinny Twitter window on the right,

01:55:47   and then, oh, you wanna replace that Twitter,

01:55:51   skinny Twitter thing on the right with messages

01:55:54   because somebody just texted you,

01:55:55   and it's like eight swipes and taps.

01:55:59   - Yeah, yeah.

01:56:00   - When it really shouldn't be,

01:56:03   'cause you'd still want Safari over there on the side

01:56:05   in a way that, you know,

01:56:07   once you pair these two things side by side,

01:56:09   they become like a married couple that can't be separated.

01:56:12   You know, they've got like a dependence problem.

01:56:15   - And that's the other thing.

01:56:16   People always complain that there's not full Safari

01:56:18   on there and I never know who's to blame for that.

01:56:19   'Cause you talk to Apple and they're like,

01:56:21   there's just one Safari team, we just make Safari.

01:56:23   But then you try to use the fine iPad

01:56:25   and all these sites load the iPhone version of it

01:56:27   instead of the desktop version,

01:56:28   and you have to press the desktop button and you get it.

01:56:31   It's available to it.

01:56:32   For some reason, the mix of Mobile Safari's identity bar

01:56:36   and those websites just always give you a bad experience.

01:56:40   It makes people think that Safari is worse

01:56:41   than it actually is.

01:56:42   - There's other things too.

01:56:43   I gotta write about this.

01:56:44   It's just such a mountain.

01:56:46   It's just such a huge rant,

01:56:48   but I gotta get it off my chest.

01:56:49   But one of the other things I noticed,

01:56:51   I've been trying to do more and more work on it.

01:56:52   And so I upload the audio hosting for the talk show is on SoundCloud.

01:56:59   And to upload-- there might be other ways.

01:57:01   I don't know.

01:57:01   The way I know how to do it is I log into SoundCloud's website,

01:57:04   and they have a button that says Upload Audio.

01:57:06   And then you choose from the file picker, or you drag it into the window,

01:57:11   and it uploads the audio.

01:57:14   And you wait, and it does a little processing.

01:57:16   And then it's ready.

01:57:18   And then I can proceed with the other stuff I have to do.

01:57:21   So I tried doing it on the iPad last week,

01:57:23   with the last episode.

01:57:25   And SoundCloud doesn't have a mobile,

01:57:28   or at least on the iPad, they show you

01:57:30   what looks like the same thing I see on the Mac.

01:57:32   It shows you the full website,

01:57:34   and it lets you hit the upload button,

01:57:36   and the upload button lets you pick from the apps in files.

01:57:41   So I can pick from Dropbox, and I can pick from iCloud.

01:57:45   Dropbox is actually what I need, and it works,

01:57:50   and I can just go there and it's exact, you know,

01:57:52   just like as familiar as the Finder,

01:57:54   here's all my folders in my Dropbox,

01:57:56   here's the one for the talk show, here's the new episode.

01:57:59   There it is and it goes and it starts uploading.

01:58:02   And as it's uploading, if I command tab away

01:58:05   and go to another app and then come back to Safari,

01:58:07   it stopped. (laughs)

01:58:09   - Yeah. - It just doesn't work

01:58:11   in the background.

01:58:12   And that's, you know, I don't wanna sit there and wait,

01:58:16   it takes minutes.

01:58:18   I don't, it doesn't seem right.

01:58:20   - That's why Apple's just in time,

01:58:21   multitasking breaks down for you.

01:58:23   - And on the other hand, I get it though,

01:58:25   'cause I hate the idea,

01:58:26   I hate how much battery life and CPU power I waste on the Mac

01:58:29   with crappy websites running JavaScript

01:58:33   I don't want in the background.

01:58:35   Like I kind of like philosophically the idea

01:58:38   that a website that isn't a visible tab should be shut down.

01:58:43   But I didn't close the tab, I didn't cover the tab.

01:58:47   it's still the frontmost tab in Safari.

01:58:49   I've just made Safari not frontmost, and the upload stops.

01:58:53   - Yeah, and I think they have a way

01:58:56   to make that kind of stuff continue.

01:58:57   I don't remember for sure, but I think they do have a way.

01:59:00   - For all I know, it's entirely SoundCloud's fault.

01:59:03   I don't know.

01:59:04   - No, that sounds like iOS.

01:59:05   It's 'cause I don't think SoundCloud

01:59:06   would terminate the connection.

01:59:07   It sounds like iOS has reached its whatever limit

01:59:09   for time and shuts down the process.

01:59:11   - Right, I'm just saying it doesn't really matter

01:59:13   because practically speaking, it always works on the Mac

01:59:16   and it doesn't work on the iPad unless I keep it front most.

01:59:19   And I even think I have to, you know,

01:59:21   it takes enough minutes usually to upload an episode

01:59:23   of the show that I would have to keep touching the screen

01:59:26   to keep it from falling asleep.

01:59:29   - See, there's this weird thing.

01:59:30   Like it reminds me of when Marco did that whole talk about,

01:59:33   he didn't want to have a setting screen

01:59:35   in the original Overcast.

01:59:36   - Right.

01:59:37   - And he ended up having to do so many gymnastics

01:59:38   to avoid having a setting screen.

01:59:40   It was simpler just to add a setting screen.

01:59:41   And Apple really didn't want a file system on the iPad.

01:59:44   Even though they had Image Picker and the Photos app,

01:59:47   and they could have easily had Document Picker

01:59:48   and a Files app like they have right now,

01:59:51   it took them years and they had Silo.

01:59:53   So if you created a note in Vesper, for example,

01:59:56   and then you forgot where that note was,

01:59:57   you'd have to try and figure out what,

01:59:59   go through every single one of your apps and find a note

02:00:01   because there was no,

02:00:02   and now finally we have universal files,

02:00:03   but I can stick an SD card or something into the computer

02:00:07   and Image Picker will come up

02:00:09   and let me pull in all my photos,

02:00:11   but Document Picker will not come up

02:00:12   and let me pull in all my documents.

02:00:14   And it feels like it's just that legacy thinking

02:00:16   where their obsession of avoiding the complexity of files

02:00:20   has made files so much more complex

02:00:22   than they need to be on iOS.

02:00:24   - Yeah.

02:00:25   There's sometimes where you just need,

02:00:30   you just can't beat the old floppy net, you know,

02:00:34   snicker net, you know, you just have a big file

02:00:36   on machine A and the fastest way to get it

02:00:38   to the machine B where you need it is to, you know,

02:00:41   use an SD card or a USB drive or something. It's very frustrating that that doesn't

02:00:48   work. I know that's been talked to death and it's got to be on Apple's radar, but…

02:00:51   Steven: Yeah, and it doesn't…that's the thing is that you don't need Finder.

02:00:55   They just have these existing…and again, I'm doing the exact thing I said not to

02:00:57   you, but don't propose solutions from over…but my problem is I get given these things and

02:01:01   I need to be able to handle them and I need them to fix that for me.

02:01:03   Yeah, I don't, you know, and, you know, I totally get not being able to, you know, I

02:01:09   just feel like Apple is a little gun shy about even opening the door crack on external storage,

02:01:14   you know, and the way that, you know, even Android's gotten away from it, though, I don't

02:01:18   I, to me, it seems like most Android phones don't take SD card slots that you can use

02:01:23   as internal storage anymore. And I totally get people were so frustrated by that in the

02:01:28   early years of the iPhone, because the storage capacities were so low. And other phones,

02:01:33   would let other brand phones would let you do it, open the back, put an SD card in there,

02:01:38   and then all of a sudden you can store it. It just looks like the OS treats it as internal storage.

02:01:43   I get not doing that because then you—it just—the Mac does it, and the Mac has the

02:01:48   conceptual heaviness to allow it, but what happens when you take the card out and the

02:01:52   app is dependent on it, right? It's the—

02:01:54   So that's the thing is like, again, I don't want them to just put the Mac onto iOS,

02:01:59   but they're—and I understand that the cloud, like they have storage providers,

02:02:02   so you can hook into Dropbox and iCloud and then you can move files over the cloud. That's fine.

02:02:06   But there are situations even when dealing with people at Apple where you get given

02:02:09   physical storage and I don't need it to be persistent physical storage. I just need to

02:02:13   get the files on. So if they gave me, like they have a wonderful new, it debuted with iOS 12,

02:02:18   a wonderful new way to pull photos on because they understand that when you're dealing with

02:02:21   photos and video it comes from an external source, the camera or the cart. Files is the same thing.

02:02:25   Just give me a the the files equivalent of the of the image picker and let me suck those files

02:02:32   Into files dot app and I'll be fine. I don't have to keep the drive plugged in

02:02:35   I just need to get them onto my exactly or the opposite is let me move this file

02:02:41   Yes from somewhere else onto this card because I got to give it to Renee because Renee's the one who's gonna go do the editing

02:02:46   You know, yes

02:02:47   All right. I don't have four gigs of time to wait for it to upload

02:02:51   All right. Let me take a break here and thank our third and final sponsor of the show

02:02:54   oh, it's our good friends at fracture

02:02:56   Fracture is where you take your photos get them printed directly on

02:03:01   Glass they make their prints by printing directly on the glass not a piece of paper stuck to glass

02:03:07   Not a piece of paper behind glass. It's printed right on the glass. It is it is gorgeous

02:03:13   It is edge to edge. You don't need a frame

02:03:15   The glass is the frame it is just edge to edge all of your just your image

02:03:22   Everyone, they have all sorts of sizes, big, huge sizes, little tiny desktop sizes.

02:03:27   Everyone comes with everything you need to mount it on a wall or to prop it up on your

02:03:32   mantle or your desk.

02:03:33   Everything comes with what you need in the packaging, and the quality is just outstanding.

02:03:38   Now you know why they're sponsoring in mid-November.

02:03:40   It's because these things are the best holiday gifts.

02:03:43   These are fantastic gifts, and the thing is you cannot wait until the last minute on a

02:03:49   a fracture print because they make all these things down in their factory in Gainesville,

02:03:54   Florida. And you can order right now. You'll get them in plenty of time. Pause the show

02:03:59   if you want to pause the show, go take an hour or make a to do put a reminder in there

02:04:04   to do it today, tomorrow, do it now. Don't wait weeks because they will get backed up

02:04:10   and they'll fall behind the holidays for shipping. And you don't want to, you don't want to do

02:04:15   that because I'm telling you these things are the best gifts and one of the things I'm

02:04:20   a terrible gift buyer because I don't know what to buy anybody I don't know what I like

02:04:24   I'm terrible at buying gifts the thing about fracture prints that are so great is you can

02:04:29   keep giving them to people year after year like that's the worst part was I hate it when

02:04:33   I finally think of a really great gift for somebody and they're like this is really thoughtful

02:04:38   this is such a great gift well I've just burned the idea fractures as gifts you can just keep

02:04:43   doing them year after year. You don't have to waste any time, waste any thought. It's

02:04:47   fantastic. And nobody, no grandparent ever is like, ah, I've got too many pictures of

02:04:52   my grandkids. Nobody ever thinks that they're just fantastic. Everybody loves them. The

02:04:56   quality is great. The prices are great. Um, and they're a green company operating a carbon

02:05:02   neutral factory so you can feel good about that. Here's where you go. Fracture me.com/talk

02:05:08   slash talk ta lk and you'll get a special discount on your first order

02:05:13   fracture me dot-com slash talk and don't forget to pick the talk show in their

02:05:19   one question survey after checkout that's fracture me dot-com slash talk do

02:05:25   not wait till December go order now I love fracture I really mean it I swear

02:05:33   they sponsor the show every year I'd swear even if they stopped sponsoring if

02:05:37   They said, "Screw you, John.

02:05:38   "We're not sponsoring your show anymore."

02:05:40   I would still tell people to buy Fractured Gifts as gifts

02:05:43   'cause it's just so unbelievable.

02:05:46   What else is going on?

02:05:49   Oh, how about this cable situation?

02:05:51   I really dug deep on the--

02:05:54   - I saw that.

02:05:55   - So here's my dilemma.

02:05:58   And now I've bought this new iPad Pro.

02:06:01   And I don't even know where my old iPad Pro is.

02:06:03   It's somewhere in my office.

02:06:04   It's already, it's all junk.

02:06:06   (both laughing)

02:06:09   But now I've got this thing that I'm carrying around,

02:06:11   me personally, John.

02:06:13   So now it's a real problem, 'cause it's my problem,

02:06:16   is I've got this thing with a new connector.

02:06:18   My personal MacBook Pro is still the 2014,

02:06:21   so I've still got MagSafe for that.

02:06:23   And I've got a phone.

02:06:29   So now I've gotta go around and I've gotta charge,

02:06:30   if I go on a trip and I take a pad, iPad, and a Mac,

02:06:35   and my phone.

02:06:36   Now I've got three things.

02:06:37   - Three cables. - To charge.

02:06:38   And the Mac--

02:06:41   - And maybe micro USB for some of your accessories.

02:06:43   - Right, well, like a battery pack, yeah.

02:06:46   So I've been a big fan, I've mentioned this before,

02:06:48   Monoprice, makers of cables and all sorts of gadgets,

02:06:55   have these excellent cables that have,

02:06:58   they're a USB-A that goes into the charging source side,

02:07:03   And on the other side, it's a micro USB

02:07:06   with two caps that are attached,

02:07:09   one for lightning and one for USB-C.

02:07:12   So one cable, it is a little ugly at the end

02:07:15   because it's got two of these little caps,

02:07:19   sort of like, you know, but they are attached

02:07:21   and they're attached.

02:07:22   I've had a couple of these cables for well over a year.

02:07:25   You know, the little piece of rubber that keeps it attached,

02:07:27   it seems very rugged.

02:07:28   And it's kind of a lifesaver.

02:07:32   It's a great thing.

02:07:34   'Cause it looks a little ugly,

02:07:37   so it's not the most elegant thing

02:07:39   to have laying around the house.

02:07:40   But in terms of something to keep in your bag,

02:07:42   having a couple of them,

02:07:43   they're the only black cables I have.

02:07:47   So if I see a black cable in my bag,

02:07:49   I know it'll work for anything.

02:07:50   It has lightning, USB-C, and micro USB.

02:07:53   The problem is it's USB-A on the other end,

02:07:57   so I need a USB-A charger,

02:07:59   which didn't used to be a problem,

02:08:00   because I just used the iPad chargers, right?

02:08:04   Which were either 10 watt or in recent years 12 watt.

02:08:08   So the old Apple iPad chargers were what I would take.

02:08:13   I'd take like two of them with me.

02:08:14   Or like on a family trip I bought at some point,

02:08:17   I forget what brand it was, this is probably an Anker.

02:08:20   I had this black thing probably about the size

02:08:24   of like a MacBook power square.

02:08:28   and it had a bunch of USB-A slots.

02:08:31   So I could plug this one thing in

02:08:33   and charge like five USB devices.

02:08:36   The problem now though is that with modern MacBooks

02:08:41   and with the iPad Pro,

02:08:43   you don't want to limit it to 10 or 12 watt charging.

02:08:45   You want faster charging 'cause it can charge faster.

02:08:49   But the faster chargers,

02:08:50   the 18 watt charger that comes with the iPad Pro

02:08:53   and the 30 watt charger that you can buy from Apple

02:08:56   the better deal, the anchor one that's also 30 watt and it's like half the price.

02:09:00   They all start with USB-C out to get those support those faster charging speeds. And the only company

02:09:08   that sells USB-C to lightning cables that support fast charging and are certified is Apple. They

02:09:18   have two. They have a one meter cable and a two meter cable. And I think they're 19 and a ridiculous

02:09:25   $35, respectively. I mean, I say ridiculous. I mean, I think it's hard to make a two-meter

02:09:30   cable that does it. I don't know. But I don't think Apple's track record on lightning

02:09:34   cable durability really justifies the prices that they charge. I mean, I probably criticize

02:09:41   Apple less on pricing than most critics. I got to say that for their quality, a lot of

02:09:47   their products are high-priced, but they're also very high quality. The lightning cables

02:09:52   High priced and they are not high quality

02:09:54   There's I've thrown out an awful lot of lightning cables over the years because they fray and that things get exposed

02:10:01   no company has third-party cables it and

02:10:05   so I dug into it and the long story short is

02:10:09   It's hard to make this story short actually, you know

02:10:14   All right. One thing I learned that I guess I knew but I think I'd forgotten is that all

02:10:22   MFI made for iPhone

02:10:24   licensed cables with lightning

02:10:26   Every single one the actual lightning connector that little thing that plugs into your phone that the actual lightning connector

02:10:34   All of them are sourced from Apple. Yeah, so every anchor mono price

02:10:39   Amazon you name it if you buy a certified lightning cable the actual lightning connector is from Apple

02:10:46   So there else is licensed to make those connectors, right and part of it is

02:10:50   is, well, who knows what the reasons are?

02:10:54   So thanks, part of it might be technical

02:10:56   because there's like a chip in there for a handshake

02:10:58   that I guess Apple wants to make itself.

02:11:01   I think Apple enjoys having the control.

02:11:03   - Yes, it's almost always control.

02:11:05   - They don't give them away, they sell them.

02:11:08   And I guess the problem is that the existing connectors

02:11:14   aren't certified for PD, power delivery,

02:11:20   which is what is required to get above 12 watts on USB.

02:11:24   And so Apple's own cables obviously have this new connector

02:11:30   that is certified and does PD,

02:11:33   because you can plug these into like a 30 watt charger.

02:11:36   I think the new iPad Pro can even go up

02:11:38   to like 45 watts or something.

02:11:40   I think it can take advantage

02:11:42   of even more than a 30 watt charger,

02:11:44   but a 30 watt charger gets you pretty close

02:11:46   to the maximum charging speed.

02:11:48   Apple isn't licensing those connectors to third parties.

02:11:51   So you can't, there's nothing Belkin or Anchor or Amazon

02:11:56   or any of the, Monoprice, any of the companies

02:11:59   who you might like to buy third party cables from,

02:12:01   there's nothing they can do.

02:12:02   And supposedly, according to these rumors,

02:12:04   that's going to change at some point

02:12:07   in the spring of next year.

02:12:10   That by like April or something like that,

02:12:13   third parties are gonna have the new Lightning Cape

02:12:16   connectors and can therefore make a USB-C lightning cable.

02:12:20   Yeah, they're all new. They're completely new end bits.

02:12:23   Yeah, exactly. So, you know, that's a good way to put it. The end bits are new because

02:12:28   they support this new thing, and right now only Apple has them.

02:12:34   The MFI licensees do not talk about MFI because the penalty—everybody signs a nondisclosure

02:12:40   agreement and breaking the nondisclosure agreement supposedly carries fines in the millions of

02:12:45   That's what Nielai Patel has reported, and I have no reason to doubt him.

02:12:52   And I also have no reason to doubt that Apple would enjoy putting a massive penalty fee

02:12:57   on breaking.

02:12:58   I really—

02:12:59   Let's just say that those NDAs are so much stricter than the NDAs you see around new versions

02:13:03   of iOS that people used to break routinely after WBC.

02:13:07   So there's not a lot of information out there.

02:13:09   Nielai was tweeting about it this week and said that he's, you know, The Verge has

02:13:12   been trying to get a story on MFI licensing out for a while and they've been working, you know,

02:13:17   for a year and they really don't have the story yet because they can't get anybody to talk even

02:13:21   off the record. But the one thing I heard from somebody who would be in a position to know is

02:13:27   that at one point last year, no third parties were getting any lightning connectors from Apple.

02:13:32   It's been like that for years. Like they've been short on those connectors for years.

02:13:37   Not even talking, not new connectors, not new and that's that support higher speed charging,

02:13:42   just any lightning connector. Because Apple had needed the entire world supply of lightning

02:13:48   connectors for the three lightning connectors that were going into every iPhone box. And I

02:13:53   was told this, I was like, wait, why would you put three lightning connectors? And it was Yeah,

02:13:57   because at that time, they were, they're still giving you a charging cable, of course,

02:14:03   the new headphones that have a lightning connector and they were giving everybody the headphone jack

02:14:08   to lightning dongle. And so the first quarter of the millions of life, right, like 70 million in

02:14:18   a quarter. So that's 210 million lightning connectors in a quarter that have to, you know,

02:14:24   and they can't, the iPad production cannot be held up because of a lack of lightning dongles.

02:14:31   And it's kind of wacky to think that Apple wasn't able to make lightning connectors fast enough,

02:14:40   but it may well be true. No, it's absolutely true. It's happened for several years. That's crazy.

02:14:46   When you think about it, because there's iPhone supply, there's iPad supply, there's Apple's

02:14:49   own accessories, which aren't much, but they all do add on top of it. And they like having that

02:14:54   control. And they've been able to wield that control that lightning gives them to prevent

02:15:01   things like having battery cases that have a headphone jack, which I can't prove is because

02:15:09   Apple doesn't allow it. I don't know anybody at Apple who's told me off the record, "No, no,

02:15:15   yeah, we don't allow that. We don't want that." I don't know anybody, nobody's told me that. It's a

02:15:19   sort of educated guess, but the fact that nobody makes a case that has a headphone jack sort of

02:15:26   would suggest that that is true. And I, you know, like you said, Apple likes having control. So

02:15:32   one of my everybody's not everybody, but a lot of people seem to think that because the iPad has

02:15:37   gone to USB C, the iPhone is going to go to USB C, and we're going to live in this utopia where

02:15:43   everything charges with the same connectors. I don't think that's going to happen. Because I

02:15:48   don't a I just don't think Apple wants to give up the control. And B, I think it's another one of

02:15:53   of those cases where you need to listen to what Apple says. When Apple says, "Here's

02:15:57   why we changed the iPad Pro to USB-C," and they give all these reasons, they don't

02:16:02   really apply to the phone. And they don't say, "Well, we just want the whole world

02:16:06   to be on the same connector." They don't say that.

02:16:10   Steve: And it's funny because they will typically work with…so they know when there's

02:16:15   problems. Like, for example, when they took away the 3.5-millimeter headphone jack, they

02:16:19   knew that there were people with accessibility needs who have to actually listen to headphones

02:16:23   and charge at the same time.

02:16:24   So they worked, it's typically like Belkin

02:16:26   or a company like that, they'll work with those companies

02:16:27   to make charging pads, like they did with the inductive

02:16:31   iPhones, or to make splitters, like they did when the

02:16:34   iPhone 7 came out, so you would be able to buy those

02:16:36   day and date.

02:16:37   And the fact that they didn't work with anybody to make

02:16:39   all this stuff for the new iPad Pro, I think, is telling

02:16:43   when it comes to the supply of those components.

02:16:46   - Yep, I agree too.

02:16:47   I just don't think it's gonna happen, but the thing about me

02:16:51   that I want is I want third party cables.

02:16:53   I'd like one of the small things,

02:16:55   A, the price is better, you know,

02:16:58   $19 is the cheapest USB-C to lightning cable you can get.

02:17:02   But the price doesn't even so much bother me so much

02:17:05   as the fact that I don't,

02:17:06   one meter is too long for some of my needs.

02:17:09   You know, I don't want, I like to have a cup,

02:17:11   I like little six inch lightning cables for like,

02:17:15   - Totally.

02:17:15   - You know, and you know, one of the ways I minimize

02:17:18   the number of chargers I have to take on a trip

02:17:20   is taking advantage of the fact that I can use a Mac as a USB hub and plug my Mac into

02:17:26   power and then plug other things into the USB ports on my MacBook. I don't need a

02:17:31   one-meter cable for that. A six-inch cable is perfect because the phone's just right

02:17:36   there next to the computer. And having all of your cables be at least a meter long, when

02:17:44   you need three, four, five, maybe more cables, they get tangled. It's a mess. So it's very

02:17:51   frustrating.

02:17:53   Jared: Also, some people just don't like the material Apple makes and they want one of

02:17:55   the corded ones or they want one of the alternate materials that another vendor makes.

02:17:58   Dave: Or one that doesn't fray.

02:17:59   Jared Yeah, totally.

02:18:01   Dave Yeah, you know, there's, so it seems very curious that there aren't any and I think

02:18:08   there was a lot of, there was some speculation from some of the people when I started asking

02:18:13   that maybe Apple just doesn't want to allow third party USB-C to Lightning cables. I don't

02:18:18   think it's that they don't want it. I just think that it is taking a very long time to

02:18:21   ramp up the production of those connectors that allow it. And in the meantime, Apple

02:18:26   is the only one who has them.

02:18:28   And if you remember, like when the Apple TV 4K came out, suddenly the Apple community

02:18:32   had to realize what a mess HDMI was because the length did matter and the shielding did

02:18:36   matter and if you wanted 444 HDR, you couldn't just use any cable. And now USB-C, even though

02:18:42   has been on the Mac for three years,

02:18:44   people really didn't understand the complete mess

02:18:46   that USB-C was that other people have been dealing with

02:18:48   for years to the extent that a Google engineer

02:18:51   had to go through and individually review every cable

02:18:54   on Amazon so that you wouldn't burn down your devices

02:18:56   by plugging them in.

02:18:57   'Cause it is a horrible, horrible mess.

02:18:59   And I think, I don't think Apple wanted to avoid that

02:19:02   because the cable that comes with the iPad

02:19:04   doesn't do everything that you want a USB-C cable to do.

02:19:08   - No, that's the crazy thing.

02:19:09   Like, I don't know how many people,

02:19:11   I knew that this was true, but I didn't know

02:19:13   as many of the details as I found out

02:19:15   in this deep dive this week.

02:19:16   It is insane how different one USB-C cable

02:19:21   can be from another.

02:19:22   And you can see it physically.

02:19:24   And guess what, Apple doesn't label them.

02:19:27   There is no secret small print

02:19:30   that you can triple click your iPhone

02:19:32   to get the magnifying glass and read,

02:19:33   "Oh, this is charging only, not data."

02:19:35   Nope, their cables don't even have Apple logos on them.

02:19:40   They're from Johnny White's white universe of objective purity.

02:19:46   And some people think, is this a Thunderbolt 3?

02:19:48   Oh, Thunderbolt 3 isn't a real thing.

02:19:49   It's just something that can be carried over USB-C.

02:19:52   But this one doesn't carry it, and this one does.

02:19:54   Right.

02:19:54   So you can tell the difference, because the one that Apple

02:19:57   includes with the iPad Pro is thinner.

02:19:59   It is a very thinner, suppler cable.

02:20:02   And the one that is capable of doing data, too,

02:20:04   is a much thicker-- it's just a thicker cable.

02:20:08   But I didn't even realize that.

02:20:10   Like I've been using these cables again for three years

02:20:11   and I just assumed that Apple would include

02:20:13   the usual cable and I plugged into a display

02:20:15   and it didn't work.

02:20:16   And I thought I was doing something stupid.

02:20:19   - Right, and it's so A, yeah, Renee Ritchie,

02:20:22   the guy who's the editor at iMore

02:20:24   shouldn't be confused by this, frankly.

02:20:26   'Cause if you are, normal people are gonna be baffled.

02:20:30   But I can see this being a disaster in the real world

02:20:33   where if you're in a rush, you've got a deadline,

02:20:37   You know you need a you you've got to get this

02:20:39   You've got your iPad you're gonna project it onto a screen for an important meeting or a demonstration

02:20:46   You know whatever you need you know to connect and here I've grabbed a USB C cable. Let me double-check the connectors

02:20:52   Yes, definitely USB C good to go plug it in nothing

02:20:56   It's thinner I didn't realize what normal person is going to think it's the wrong type of USB C cable

02:21:03   There's just well, there shouldn't be a wrong type of USB

02:21:06   If it looks like USB see it should be USB. Yes

02:21:10   and I will say to Apple's credit on this delay getting the

02:21:15   Third party USB C to lightning cables out is that once it happens?

02:21:21   You won't have to worry about it that all of the licensed ones will be

02:21:25   Will support faster charging speeds and there won't be any that don't

02:21:33   Which brings me to the ones you can buy because please please please I hope I didn't wait too long to bring this up on

02:21:38   The show I hope my email box isn't already filled up with

02:21:41   More of the I don't know what the hell you're talking about John

02:21:45   I bought a bunch of these USB C to lightning cables on Amazon for $6 each. I know that you can buy them

02:21:52   I know that that there's a

02:21:54   Forget I didn't want to mention the brand some a bunch of no-name brands

02:21:58   I think they're all just white-labeled. You can go to Amazon and buy cables that are USB-C

02:22:03   on one end and Lightning on the other, but A, they are not MFI certified, and so they're

02:22:09   not using Apple's Lightning things, and I would not use a cable like that plugged into

02:22:14   my $1,200 iPhone.

02:22:16   Justin: Yeah, power is not something you ever want to screw around with.

02:22:19   Would not plug the other end of it the 30 the USB C and I would not plug that into a 30 watt charger. I

02:22:26   Just I and I think that the risk of like fires or sparks or something like that is probably pretty low

02:22:35   But these cables even if they work perfectly are never going to deliver more than 12 watts of power

02:22:42   Yeah, because they're not using you know, they're not PD certified

02:22:46   So it will work and I know that there are people I got a ton of you know

02:22:51   People are saying like I bought these their work. They charge just fine. I think they're fast charging

02:22:55   Well, they're not fast charging. Although 12 watt is faster than 5 watt. I mean, it's they're fast charging the way the old iPad adapter

02:23:02   Yes, like the old USB a and iPad adapter used to fast charge not the way a USB C adapter would right and you

02:23:08   if you actually sit here and stopwatch like a new iPad pro charging on a 30 watt charger it is

02:23:14   significantly, it is very fast. So they're not good cables. But B, if you actually open

02:23:22   up the reviews, scroll down in Amazon and look at the reviews and sort by most recent.

02:23:29   Because I forget what they sort by default, but it's like the companies have enough shills.

02:23:34   **Ezra Klein:** Most helpful, yeah.

02:23:35   **

02:23:35   most helpful isn't good because they make it sound like these cables are good.

02:23:39   Just go to most recent where you just see, just in order, the most recent reviews and

02:23:45   they're just chock full of people who say that they break after a week, a week or two

02:23:50   weeks. I mean, however fragile Apple's connectors are, they don't break after a week. So you're

02:23:55   getting what you pay for. So anyway, that's my rant on cables.

02:24:00   John: And the mess that USB-C is. Yeah, I don't think that—do you think that Apple's

02:24:06   going to make the iPhone USB-C?

02:24:08   Ben: No, I mean, never say never. But I think the advantage—the reason we have Lightning

02:24:15   is because USB-C didn't get certified fast enough. I'm sure if USB-C was available

02:24:19   three years earlier, it would have been an easy choice. But it was very similar to Apple

02:24:23   that worked on both of those.

02:24:24   John; I don't know about that. I still don't know about that.

02:24:25   Ben; No, maybe fair enough. But Apple wanted to make the iPhone 5. They were not going

02:24:29   wait for USB-C to do it and Lightning is a smaller connector and also one because Apple

02:24:34   has complete control they can change anything about it at any time without waiting for anybody,

02:24:39   any standards commission to rule on those changes.

02:24:41   And that's a big deal. Didn't they do that with the headphones? Lightning as it came

02:24:46   out in the first generation I don't think could have done headphones. But they had it

02:24:51   in mind as a future use and then they changed the protocol.

02:24:55   I think it was intelligently switching. Like the old dock connector that you had to rewire

02:24:58   over and over again and they would change what the ports, what the keys did, what the

02:25:02   pins did in the old dock connector because technology changed and I think they made lightning

02:25:07   to be way more adaptable for them than it was.

02:25:09   But like there were rumors that Google was already working on a phone that has no ports

02:25:13   and no buttons and they just couldn't get remote restore working fast enough.

02:25:16   And you look at the Apple TV 4K and they got rid of the port and they've got remote restore

02:25:20   working on it.

02:25:21   And I think there's much more likely that we'll go to no cables than we'll go to

02:25:24   USB-C.

02:25:25   Yeah, that's my guess.

02:25:26   And I don't know how many years that is, but my guess is that it will go to an iPhone

02:25:31   that's more like the watch with no ports before we'll see USB-C.

02:25:36   And the watch still needs remote restore badly.

02:25:38   Yeah, definitely.

02:25:40   Restoring a watch is the worst.

02:25:41   I don't even want to…

02:25:43   And I'm pretty sure now that as soon as we get USB-C sorted, the standard will announce

02:25:46   USB-C micro anyway and we'll just lose our minds all over again.

02:25:49   Oh, my God.

02:25:50   Because remember there was USB-A and then USB-A mini and then USB-A micro and it just

02:25:53   got worse and worse.

02:25:54   Yeah.

02:25:55   Mini was terrible.

02:25:57   - And it was double wide.

02:25:58   If you had a hard drive, you'd get a double wide connector.

02:26:01   - And we're still stuck with all these micro products.

02:26:04   And I guess I think, I can't help but think

02:26:06   that part of the reason that more,

02:26:08   things like battery packs and that keyboard

02:26:11   I was talking about earlier,

02:26:12   that Logitech sponge keyboard, it charges by micro USB.

02:26:17   I hate micro USB.

02:26:21   I hate it.

02:26:21   I just hate it.

02:26:23   It's just so friggin' ugly to look at.

02:26:25   And now that USB-C is out and can be plugged in upside down,

02:26:30   but I feel like it's the complexity of USB-C that

02:26:33   keeps more of these devices from switching.

02:26:36   Like maybe-- I don't know.

02:26:39   Maybe I'm wrong.

02:26:40   I'm not an electrical engineer, but I can't help but think.

02:26:42   With micro USB, no matter what you plug in,

02:26:45   it's not going to be high wattage.

02:26:46   There is no such thing as high wattage USB-C.

02:26:48   But whereas you might plug this keyboard into an 85 watt

02:26:51   MacBook Pro power charger, and it

02:26:55   needs to do something intelligent to say, I don't need that. I just, you know, here,

02:26:58   give me the low, you know, give me the low watt thing. Whereas micro USB, it's, it just

02:27:04   works. Well, yeah, Google guy, a lot of his early reviews was like, these things are not

02:27:07   power managing and you can easily over overcharge them. And then I think the Nintendo switch

02:27:11   came out and it wouldn't work with standard USB-C because it was doing something weird

02:27:14   with you. And it's just, again, no, no humans have to worry about these things. No. And

02:27:18   that is sort of the advantage of lightning as it stands is that if you see lightning

02:27:21   And it's from a name-brand company you can you it should just work and should do everything you expect lightning to do

02:27:26   It will charge it will carry data. There is no different kind of light. No, so yeah

02:27:31   But it's gonna be a while till we get I get my beloved three-way cables back. Yeah. I'm sorry John

02:27:37   That's it for me that's all everything on my list for the show anything else Renee that you wanted to talk about

02:27:43   No, I was gonna bend some iPads, but I'll do that later. Yeah

02:27:48   What I didn't watch this before the show it so explain this video to me. So there's this video

02:27:53   Zach who does the channel Jerry rig everything he somehow beat unbox therapy to bending iPads this year

02:28:00   And he just took an iPad. He does this really weird thing. And I think it's farcical

02:28:04   I think it's meant to satire because there's no way you can take it seriously or he does these

02:28:09   unboxings and he's kind of comedic about it and he he says like look it's aluminum and he scrapes an exacto blade along it and

02:28:15   he cuts out all the parts and peels the pencil back.

02:28:18   And then he just took the iPad and he bends it in half.

02:28:20   And immediately Twitter flooded with all these people going,

02:28:22   "Oh my God, you can bend the iPad in half."

02:28:24   But you can always bend an iPad in half.

02:28:26   It's like metal bends, plastic cracks,

02:28:28   glass breaks and ceramics shatter.

02:28:31   Every material has, you know,

02:28:32   every material science has these issues

02:28:34   and you have to mitigate them.

02:28:36   So then another YouTuber, Quinn from Snazzy Labs,

02:28:39   did the exact same video, even more parodied,

02:28:42   where he did the same thing to a Huawei tablet.

02:28:44   And it was just it was one of the funniest end ups I'd ever seen where he's just like up bend it in half

02:28:50   Cut it open with an exacto knife

02:28:52   But I think the reaction by the internet is more telling because immediately I was flooded with you know

02:28:57   Apple's got another bend gate my iPad can bend

02:28:59   Oh my god, and there was no sort of context or clarity or thought put into the reaction

02:29:05   It was just don't put it in your back jeans pocket

02:29:08   I know Dalrymple used to put the meaning in his back jean pocket and it scared the crap out of me every time

02:29:12   It's a tablet. It's a valuable piece of very thin glass and aluminum take care of it, right?

02:29:17   They'd have to start making like new jeans instead of having like two jean pockets

02:29:20   You just have one one big

02:29:22   That goes across your entire ass and then you can you could slot an iPad in there and bend it when you sit down

02:29:27   Well, some people have bent them it meant previous generations of iPads

02:29:31   I think Tim Stevens said he did in in a backpack, but you know, you're putting pressure on aluminum

02:29:35   Yeah, and it will bend you got to be real and Apple could make them could make them bend proof

02:29:39   But that would essentially be basically putting an OtterBox case on it that you could never remove

02:29:43   Yeah, so the better solution from Apple's point of view is if you need something rugged put a rugged case on it

02:29:48   But you can take it off when you don't need it if we put it on for you

02:29:51   You can never take it off and have a light thin iPad. Yeah, the Jerry rig everything guy. What's his name? Zach?

02:29:56   I don't even know Zach. Yeah

02:29:58   He there's something I I do get caught I see why he's successful on YouTube because I

02:30:04   Once I start if I can bear to stay with it for a minute

02:30:08   Then I do end up watching like three of his stupid videos. It's rage of mouth marketing

02:30:13   but there's something about that guy that

02:30:16   Really irritates me but irritates me in a way that is compelling

02:30:21   You know what I mean, yes

02:30:25   Yeah

02:30:28   And it's some of it. Some of it is just so dumb. Like I don't know

02:30:32   I just I can't stand seeing these devices

02:30:35   Smashed I mean like the drop test thing is a legitimate thing like well

02:30:40   Let's see what happens when you drop a phone because phones really do drop

02:30:42   but like

02:30:45   Scratching them up with like a diamond. It's like it's gadgets enough, right? It is it really is

02:30:51   but

02:30:53   YouTube's weird. Yeah. Anyway, don't worry about I mean just take good care of your iPad treat it with the value

02:30:59   It's an expensive thing treat it with care. Yeah. Well, I

02:31:02   I'd never bent an old one, so.

02:31:04   - Yeah, me neither.

02:31:06   - Everybody can follow you on Twitter.

02:31:08   You're @ReneeRichie and all of your work,

02:31:13   or most of your work, much of your work is at iMore.com.

02:31:17   - All of it, iMore.com/vector.

02:31:18   - And you are, I don't understand when you sleep

02:31:21   because you are a video producing machine with vector.

02:31:26   - Thank you.

02:31:27   - And, well, no, I mean it.

02:31:28   I don't know, I don't do videos yet.

02:31:31   I don't know. It seems like everybody's doing videos now, but I don't understand it takes me so long to review a product in writing

02:31:37   Yeah, and I feel like when I have messed around with video it video takes forever

02:31:42   It's like I don't lie

02:31:44   Like if you have a verge video team and it like neely says how long it because he has to share the device with the vert

02:31:48   Video team but there's still a verge video team and it takes them up to the last second to get it done

02:31:52   So I have no idea what I'm doing. Yeah, well the

02:31:54   The I'm more video team is you?

02:31:57   Yes, or at least you're the vector video team is you? Yes

02:32:01   But you're getting you've always been good and I enjoy your videos, but you're getting even better it shows, you know

02:32:06   Thank you the the you know adage of you, you know, you get better by just by doing it. It definitely shows

02:32:13   Thank you very much really and you know, sometimes the video is the right way to do it, you know, like when you're showing

02:32:19   Illustration it really is a show don't tell type of thing

02:32:23   That was a completely because fennerty Caldwell went to Apple and can't make videos anymore. He did those great Apple pencil reviews

02:32:30   I just felt like I had to pick up that torch.

02:32:32   It is amazing though that you, her colleague at iMore, are also a fairly talented illustrator.

02:32:37   You know, that you lost…

02:32:40   Misfit Youth, John.

02:32:41   So if you want to work at iMore, you got to be able to draw.

02:32:45   A little bit, yeah.

02:32:45   Effectively the lesson.

02:32:46   I did see Serenity at the event. Did you saw her?

02:32:50   Yeah.

02:32:51   Yeah, it was good. She was there in her capacity as an Apple person now. And then she was very

02:32:56   nice enough to say hi. I knew she was busy because we were outside and it was freezing

02:33:01   and she didn't even have a coat on. I was like, "Oh, she's busy."

02:33:04   Steve McLaughlin She was moving as fast on feet as she usually

02:33:06   does on skates.

02:33:06   Jay Haynes Yeah, definitely. She needed skates, I think.

02:33:08   She was going so fast. It was good to see her. I do miss having her pencil reviews.

02:33:15   But that's the way the world works. All right, my thanks to you. Anything else you

02:33:20   want to plug?

02:33:21   Steve McLaughlin No, that's great. Thank you so much.

02:33:23   Jay Haynes Yeah, Vector. Everybody should watch your

02:33:24   video definitely watch the one on the pencil it's a great it's a great example of where vector as a

02:33:29   youtube channel is oh thank you john all right renee have a good uh non-thanksgiving thanksgiving

02:33:37   yeah thank you