The Talk Show

218: ‘Spending Tim Cook’s Money’ With Serenity Caldwell


00:00:00   I thought that that was the weirdest, strangest Apple event I've ever been to.

00:00:04   I couldn't shut up about it while we were there, as you probably recall.

00:00:07   It was like every other word out of my mouth was, "This whole thing is so weird."

00:00:11   I loved it.

00:00:12   I loved it so much.

00:00:13   Well, I'm not complaining.

00:00:16   Like I said then, I do think it was weird.

00:00:18   I questioned whether it was worth our time.

00:00:22   But I think that that's what makes it interesting, because it wasn't like, "Oh, it's another

00:00:26   iPad introduction event where the same things happen."

00:00:29   It was actually kind of, you know, what makes it weird and different and unique is what

00:00:35   makes it interesting to talk about.

00:00:37   Yeah, well, I think what you said was really interesting at the event where we were talking

00:00:42   and you said, well, you know, they could have just done this in a press release, like, Apple

00:00:46   Pencil support is cool, but it doesn't necessarily warrant an entire event.

00:00:50   And the more I thought about it, the more I was like, yeah, but the iPad isn't really

00:00:55   the story of this event.

00:00:57   Right?

00:00:58   a reason why we didn't hear about hardware until about 30 minutes into the one hour keynote

00:01:03   presentation. And that's because the story was educated like story was the people the story was

00:01:07   how they were using the products. Yep. And what made what made it all make sense to me in hindsight,

00:01:13   like I figured it out by the afternoon, is that the the event wasn't for us in the media,

00:01:19   when we were secondary, it was for the education people. And there were, I don't know, hundreds. I

00:01:24   I mean, it was a very big event and that the high school in Chicago where they held it is just

00:01:28   enormous. Just I mean, almost, it's 4,000 comprehensively normally, I believe.

00:01:34   It certainly felt like easily. And there were so hundreds and hundreds of people from the education,

00:01:44   you know, teachers and people who manage devices for schools. From all over the place who came to

00:01:53   the event, like somebody after the event recognized me and you know, came up to say hi, and he's,

00:01:56   I think he's somewhere in Indiana. I'm sorry, whoever you are. It was very nice to meet you.

00:02:04   I think he was from like, Bloomington, Indiana or something. So it's like a two hour drive to

00:02:08   Chicago. I think there were people like that from all over the Midwest, just teachers and

00:02:13   school administrators and stuff. And that's really who the the event was for. Without question. I

00:02:18   I mean, heck, I finally met Martin Coutts in person

00:02:21   and he's an educator from Scotland.

00:02:23   So like the fact that he was there,

00:02:27   but you know what else I felt like

00:02:28   in addition to the teachers and the educators,

00:02:31   what I thought was really striking

00:02:32   and I think what I appreciated the most

00:02:35   was the fact that Apple invited students

00:02:37   and not just students from Lane Tech,

00:02:40   like they had, although they had, I don't know,

00:02:41   probably 200 of them, maybe more,

00:02:43   who had a parental permission slip

00:02:46   that had to be signed for them to go,

00:02:47   which I thought was adorable. But they had student journalists, which I like, the second that I realized that there were certain student journalists sitting in the media section, my heart just like grew three sizes. I it's Yeah, it reminded me it reminded me of my own high school experience. And the fact that like, they're getting like to be able to get to cover an event that granted, you know, it's not, you know, this is not Apple's biggest media event in the world. It's not dub dub DC, but it's still pretty.

00:03:15   not really a media event. Yeah, it's not. But it's still cool. Yeah, panzerino and I were sitting

00:03:21   together a couple of rows in front of you and Renee. I remember turning around and seeing you

00:03:26   guys. I didn't see Jason. I don't know where he was. Jason was sitting right next to me. So

00:03:30   he must have been sitting sitting behind the wire guys. But panzerino and I were I don't know,

00:03:36   six rows in front of you. And literally, like we were in seats like four and five in the aisle. And

00:03:44   And seats one two and three were the from the student paper at Lane tech

00:03:49   Like that's amazing and so pans every door and I were like we had the same feeling you did we were like talking them up

00:03:55   Or like what? You know, how often do you publish? When do you think you're gonna get this out, you know?

00:03:59   And you know and they were doing it the real way, you know, they had a photographer they had a writer

00:04:03   I guess two writers and a photographer. Mm-hmm

00:04:06   Taking notes. I was really I that was cool

00:04:10   I thought that was great and like you said they were they had the exact same media credentials we did which is awesome

00:04:14   Yeah, did you find out whether they're do they publish digitally or they still publish analog?

00:04:19   They do print they print once a month

00:04:22   But they keep the you know, they said like trying to they try to keep the website more up-to-date

00:04:27   I was like, yeah, I'd go with the web

00:04:29   When you're in a closed environment, it's kind of fun to print but yeah, I think once a month is probably a good target

00:04:39   yeah, I I don't know the entire

00:04:43   Watching that event, I you know, it was also the first event in a very long time that wasn't streamed

00:04:48   And Micah Sargent who's of course a writer for I'm more

00:04:53   Mentioned this and it totally twigs me where he's like, yeah, of course, it's not streamed because it's not again. It's not really for

00:05:01   The general population it's for the people who really care about this

00:05:05   Which is the educators and the students and the videos up afterwards for the people who want to watch but you know to

00:05:13   have it live streamed I think would again be setting the precedent or not necessarily precedent but setting the expectation that

00:05:19   Like Apple live streams an event. Okay, we're gonna get hardware. We're gonna get all these things

00:05:24   Apple doesn't live stream an event. This is a not necessarily more private but just a bit more intimate I think

00:05:30   Yeah, there there was news but you know, not a lot and I think that they the expectations that they set, you know

00:05:37   Were appropriate to the level of news that actually broke. Yeah, absolutely

00:05:42   Can we talk about what happened after the the keynote slash auditorium announcement because that I thought was

00:05:49   Maybe one of the most brilliant things they've ever done after a keynote

00:05:52   Yeah, I thought it was I would love to talk. I didn't sign an NDA about it. I don't as far as I know

00:05:58   It's all on record. I've been tweeting about it and no one's come down for me from the Gestapo. So I think we're fine

00:06:04   Yeah, so so all of us got customized schedules

00:06:10   when we got our media badges that had the one hour

00:06:15   announcement speech on it.

00:06:18   And then after that, we all got split up into about,

00:06:21   I don't know, was it like 10 different classrooms

00:06:23   that all had different aspects of the keynote presentation

00:06:27   on software that we could essentially interact with.

00:06:31   So the first, the one that I ended up going to first

00:06:34   was essentially showing off the everyone can create

00:06:38   curriculum that they announced on stage with the Fibonacci sequence. So they're like,

00:06:44   "Okay, if we're teaching the Fibonacci sequence in a math class, we could make people memorize

00:06:50   the sequence and point out that it's in nature, or we could have people find and take pictures

00:06:57   of Fibonacci sequences in nature and write poems about them. So we're all going to write

00:07:02   didn't record a poem in clips with voiceover over sequences of Fibonacci in nature. And it was just

00:07:10   like, it was just the perfect amount of over the top nonsense that I think it kept the media folks

00:07:16   entertained. But like, all I could think of the entire time that I was in that session was, this

00:07:23   is exactly how my high school taught and my high school for people who probably aren't, don't know,

00:07:30   like, I went to a school called LA County High School for the Arts, which was a magnet school,

00:07:35   a charter school that you had to try out for in either theater, music, visual arts or dance.

00:07:41   And so as a result, it was a school made up entirely of artistic children, which meant the

00:07:49   teachers had a very tough challenge teaching some STEM subjects. Because let me tell you, like,

00:07:56   dancers and theater kids, you know, like physics is not our number one priority. Most of us were

00:08:01   like English nerds. But they they came up with really interesting ways of teaching the curriculum

00:08:08   in a way that we still, you know, we still do all the standardized tests and all that nonsense. But

00:08:13   we were also like, I remember doing a history project where I was using one of the earliest

00:08:18   versions of iMovie to essentially like, reenact a version of I forget something in US history in the

00:08:27   like, in the 1950s. Maybe it was like the McCarthy Act or something like that. And then we did how it

00:08:32   compares to Star Wars. Like that was our project that got that was a way for me to learn about an

00:08:38   aspect of history. So like some like minor sub-transient aside, being in this classroom, you

00:08:46   you know, two decades later, and realizing that like, Apple is basically tapping into the same

00:08:53   things that I found worked tremendously well for me as a student as an artistic kid, but I can also

00:09:00   see the vice versa, where someone who is really into math or science or something like that, but

00:09:06   doesn't really see themselves as a creative person, now has potentially avenues to go down for

00:09:13   creativity.

00:09:15   Yeah, I thought and and I saw some every time I bring up clips and I'm fascinated by the

00:09:22   clips app because I think it's I people said, would you use it all the time? And the answer

00:09:28   is no, I actually don't but I kind of feel like I should use it more. And I've done it

00:09:32   like probably I'll try to remember to use it Sunday at Easter when we're visiting with

00:09:36   family because it's a great way to just sort of just put a bunch of videos and stuff with

00:09:41   all the kids in the family and share it. I don't know. I've done it before at little

00:09:46   family events and everybody loves it. But it's such a fascinating app. My description

00:09:52   of it is sort of like a cross between Keynote and iMovie. But optimized. And I've talked

00:10:02   to Apple about this before. But they said that it is, and again, is it true? Is it just

00:10:10   what Apple wants to be true or is it true? I can't prove it because I'm not in these

00:10:13   schools but that you know the place where it's the biggest hit is the education market

00:10:17   and that kids are doing you know teachers are assigning things like exactly like the

00:10:23   demo thing we did like you know pretty much just make like a little minute long movie

00:10:30   and they're doing it for things like field trips like so if the class goes to a museum

00:10:35   You take a bunch of iPads along and your assignment is to create like a minute long clips thing

00:10:41   of whatever the subject is that you're going to the museum to study.

00:10:46   And if you think, you know, and it's a way for kids to learn, you know, like if you did

00:10:54   like a keynote deck, it's not as interactive, right?

00:10:58   It just feels stayed and it's sort of intended for something that you're supposed to be speaking

00:11:02   a long slide as you see it. Whereas clips stands alone. And so it can be graded more

00:11:07   like regular homework, and you don't have to have all 25 kids in the class stand up

00:11:12   and spend five, you know, my summer vacation at the art museum? Yeah, no, exactly. And

00:11:18   it lends itself to very short movies. And I think one of the things that's so fascinating

00:11:24   about kids today is that, I mean, video has always been getting shorter and shorter and

00:11:32   edited and, you know, people used to think like in the 80s, that music videos were, you

00:11:36   know, crazily, quick edited, you know, quick shots, but that's nothing compared to, you

00:11:43   know, the brevity of like YouTube videos, you know, and I think kids get that like kids,

00:11:47   it's it's actually works in their favor that their attention spans are shorter, right?

00:11:51   That they can if you can condense the whole thing into 45 second clips video, that's great.

00:11:56   Yeah, well, point across. Exactly. I think that's that's exactly it is, you know, we're

00:12:01   These are kids that have grown up in the era of Twitter and YouTube.

00:12:05   And there is something to say about being able to make your point succinctly and

00:12:10   not, you know, blow V8 on for, for 20 pages or 30 minutes.

00:12:15   You know, I remember as a kid doing like you,

00:12:18   you had to do the like the state reports, right.

00:12:20   And I had to do a state report on main and they're like minimum 20 pages,

00:12:24   but your president Kentucky. Oh my God. That's an interesting one.

00:12:29   Yeah.

00:12:31   Mine was in second grade. So it was not 20 pages. It was pretty much like a like a one sheet. Oh my god, most of which was most of which was a very poorly drawn map.

00:12:41   Mine, mine was in third grade, but they literally had us they're like, yes, we want you to have all

00:12:46   of these sections. And it's okay if you outright copy from books, but you're essentially making

00:12:53   this portfolio of the state. And then you had to present it and then bring in a baked good

00:13:00   from that state, which was hilarious. So but yeah, like, I don't know, I just I think clips is

00:13:06   easier.

00:13:07   Yeah, so effectively what they did and I was trying to think about how many classrooms because it

00:13:12   felt like the classroom I was in there were four tables of eight. Yeah, I think we had like 30

00:13:20   30 people in our class, maybe 25. Yeah, I think we probably I think we had 32.

00:13:25   But if there were a couple hundred people there, they must have had it split up between a whole

00:13:30   there must have been a bunch of them. I don't know. Yeah, but effectively they had us go through like

00:13:34   an hour long fake, you know, three classes of school math with this Fibonacci thing.

00:13:40   Christ, I blacked out. I don't even remember what the other ones were math,

00:13:45   math, history and coding. Oh, right. With the Swift playgrounds. Yeah. And I see I'm,

00:13:52   I get why they did it. And it but it wasn't for me. Right. And so I only enjoyed it at the meta

00:13:58   level of watching the like the guy next to me was from the Chicago school district. And

00:14:04   he you know, he'd never seen clips before. So like, it a totally different perspective

00:14:09   on it than me. So I like let him I was like, here, I've done this. I'll you know, you can,

00:14:14   you know, because they had like one iPad for every two people. Yeah, you drive. Yeah, I

00:14:19   saw as I you drive because I kind of know this, but I'm interested. But the thing that

00:14:24   hit me was I've often thought like what would happen if I like quantum leaped back into my

00:14:29   high school self? Could I handle it? And the answer is no. Like if I'd like, if my current

00:14:35   45-year-old mind was suddenly transformed back to like my 17-year-old self, I would have to

00:14:41   quit school. Like I physically could not. I honestly thought about getting up and just

00:14:47   leaving and I just didn't want to be rude and draw attention to myself. But I just couldn't

00:14:51   stand to be there learning things I already knew. That's very strange. I mean, I think

00:14:57   that's also 17 year olds who get stuck in classes. They already know, right? Like it's

00:15:02   I just don't. I have a recurring dream. I have a recurring dream that's somewhat regular

00:15:07   that I'm back in high school and I'm incredibly bored and I don't want to do the work and

00:15:14   then it suddenly occurs to me, hey, but you know, you've got like a website and you make

00:15:19   a good living on it. You don't have to do this. You could just leave. You don't need

00:15:21   to. You could just quit high school and just go post something to during fireball. And

00:15:27   I'm so happy. And I think, oh, this is great. I'll just get up and leave.

00:15:32   And then you were actually in that situation and you're like, I can't leave. Yeah. I can't.

00:15:37   Like I like, I'm not complaining, you know, I don't want it to seem like I, I don't think

00:15:45   it was a bad, I think it was a great idea. I think you're exactly right. And, but it

00:15:49   It was a great idea for the education people.

00:15:50   And the main point of it clearly was,

00:15:54   and I think this is the whole point of the event.

00:15:56   Here we are getting to our main thesis,

00:16:00   15 minutes into the show.

00:16:02   But the main point is that Apple is losing

00:16:06   in the education market to Chromebooks.

00:16:08   - Yeah.

00:16:09   - And that whole after show curriculum was entirely,

00:16:15   if you think about it, things that you can do on an iPad

00:16:18   that you can't do in a Chromebook.

00:16:20   - Oh, completely.

00:16:21   It's let me show you why the app market

00:16:25   and why the tablet interface is a better fit

00:16:28   for teaching people from all walks of life

00:16:31   than here have a cheapo laptop.

00:16:34   - Right.

00:16:36   The other thing that they had after the event were,

00:16:42   what would they call them, labs?

00:16:43   They were just more, they're a little bit more traditional,

00:16:46   a little bit more of a,

00:16:47   But they were just in regular classrooms, which is really cool.

00:16:50   They were little mini WWDC sessions almost.

00:16:53   Interactive WWDC sessions.

00:16:56   And they had developers with certain apps, like AR apps.

00:17:02   AR was a big thing because AR is one of those things that's A,

00:17:07   it is cool, but B, iOS is ahead of the rest of the world by years,

00:17:15   seems like at this point in terms of having it actually not be like

00:17:20   conjectural but like here here's an actual AR thing that would be useful to

00:17:23   have in a classroom right now and not only can you know it's running on our

00:17:27   $1,200 iPads but also on this $329 iPad that you know right which is only $2.99

00:17:34   for education exactly I'm trying to remember the name of the app which which

00:17:40   App was it?

00:17:42   It was like a wayfaring app where?

00:17:45   You you you would point the iPads camera at like a picture of the Roman Colosseum on the desk

00:17:53   Just like a printout and then it would instantly the actual Roman Colosseum would pop up out of the desk in three dimensions

00:17:59   like

00:18:01   Instantly sort of like scanning a QR code, but an ugly QR code

00:18:06   It's a book like yeah and scanning and then you have an instant thing

00:18:10   Was it Matt bronze app the guy who does sketch party I know he also does one that's very similar to that

00:18:18   Yeah, maybe

00:18:21   Yeah, it was cool. In any case. It was really cool. It was very cool. You know, I think my favorite

00:18:28   VR my favorite AR demo which really wasn't AR so much as actual reality

00:18:35   So I guess a different AR was the Swift Playgrounds demos, which in fairness, I've actually seen

00:18:42   variations of this before. Swift Playgrounds working together with Sphero is not new, but the difference was in how it was

00:18:51   presented, whereas before it's always been very theoretical like, "Hey, you can program

00:18:55   Sphero droids in Swift Playgrounds!" And in this lab,

00:19:00   they actually built a tiny replica of Chicago on a table,

00:19:05   complete with like paper buildings and like toy box cars.

00:19:09   And then they put a little Sphero spark and it's like, okay, here,

00:19:14   we're gonna give you Swift Playgrounds and your job is to

00:19:18   program how far this spark needs to go and turn in order to get to our little, you know, paper Apple Store.

00:19:26   And as as gimmicky as it was it made me feel powerful about

00:19:33   programming Swift in a way that playing with Swift playgrounds for about a year now has not and then double that with the with the

00:19:40   Drone lab. Did you do that one John because that one was it was - it looked cool

00:19:46   That was the one that was sort of like behind like a batting cage

00:19:48   I saw people, right?

00:19:51   So I don't blame them for that. I think that was I think that was well considered

00:19:56   I did not do it though because there was too long of a line. I'd lost lost my patience

00:20:03   That's okay. It is matte bronze app. It's a matte bronze app and it's called waypoint. I will put it in the show notes

00:20:09   It's very cool

00:20:11   Waypoint edu, but it really it's a super super fun and engaging way to

00:20:16   see things like so the

00:20:19   Parthenon that shows up or not parthenon the Roman Colosseum

00:20:24   was sort of an attempt at

00:20:26   Rendering it the way that actually looked when it was new as opposed to the state of ruin that it's in now

00:20:33   You could you know it on and I and it also really

00:20:37   demonstrates like the advantage of an iPad over an iPhone for this because I could you know

00:20:42   You could zoom in and it's so much bigger and you could see the detail

00:20:45   But you could really see the way that it worked in a way that like no single still photo

00:20:50   Could show you

00:20:53   Yeah, not even a little bit. I find it's interesting because I definitely I know Frasier was Frasier Spheres, who of course is an educator, was being a little cranky about the AR stuff during the presentation and for good reason where he's like, okay, why, you know, there's the AR app Frogapedia that they showed and it's like, why is dissecting a virtual frog and AR on a tabletop so much more interesting than dissecting a virtual frog just with, you know, flat on the ground?

00:21:23   And the answer is, for that one, probably not so much. But what is nice about different AR experiences like, like Waypoint is that you can really like walk around and zoom in and zoom out. And, you know, there was another another app whose name escapes me that was similar to Waypoint that deals with interactive children, like turning books into interactive experiences.

00:21:52   and showed like, oh, this is a first graders textbook about showing relationships between mama animals and baby animals. And so once you once the iPad sees the book, it automatically pops up this, these three different biomes with like a mama elephant, a mama llama, and mama llama, say that five times fast, and like a mama bear.

00:22:15   And then you have these little tiny like kid animals in a doc type thing.

00:22:23   And then you basically your job is to like drag the animal to the appropriate pair.

00:22:29   And then if you get it right, they interact and they act real cute together.

00:22:33   And if you get it wrong, they like completely ignore each other or get into a fight.

00:22:37   And then the baby returns to the doc.

00:22:41   And it's just, yeah, I don't know.

00:22:43   um, have you ever do you have any this is a side tangent but i promise it makes sense like

00:22:48   do have you ever seen old video clips of yourself when you're a kid like early kid like three to

00:22:55   seven not many because i'm so old that they were on super 8 film not yeah we didn't have video so

00:23:02   here's the thing so there are some some super 8 my my my mom's brother had it was sort of the

00:23:08   gadget hand to the family and he had some Super 8 videos of us.

00:23:12   Yeah. Do you have any? So my dad also filmed a bunch of us on like a bunch of early stuff on

00:23:17   Super 8 and he's been digitizing it the last week and he sent me a Dropbox folder full of all of

00:23:23   these clips and so I was watching one of them and it's like, I don't know, I'm like two years old,

00:23:29   just about two years old and it's like these just puzzles, you know, just various puzzles that you

00:23:35   buy for kids. And one of them is like, match the letter to the shape, you know, so it's like a W in

00:23:42   the shape of a watermelon and then another one was like, match the animal to the animal cut out. And

00:23:49   I'm looking at this and as I'm watching it, I'm like, this is exactly this education demo. This is

00:23:55   just this education demo for like, for 2018 instead of 1989, where instead of me physically

00:24:02   putting, you know, a block into another, you know, wooden cut

00:24:08   out. Instead, I get to use a glass screen and virtually pair

00:24:13   people. It's just it's, it was a I don't know, it was very weird

00:24:19   to, to have that kind of like, Oh, my God, everything old is

00:24:22   new again.

00:24:22   Yeah. All right, let me take a break here. And thank our first

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00:26:09   no blinking lights in your menu bar, nothing. It's like you install it and it never interrupts

00:26:15   your work or distracts you. You go to it to see what is using a networking and then you

00:26:22   can block it. So it's something like for you to drive, not something that like pesters

00:26:26   you. And it really is as unobtrusive as they say. Just go to the website. It's radiosilenceapp.com.

00:26:38   And just take a look at a screenshot and you'll see what I mean. It looks super modern. It

00:26:41   is exactly what you would want in a simple, almost like if Apple built a feature like

00:26:46   this into Mac OS, just how nice and simple it is. I really, really like it. It's gotten

00:26:53   great reviews. This is why I can't believe I didn't hear about it until now. But version

00:26:56   2.0 was on Macworld's best reviewed apps of the year back in 2016. And it's super cheap.

00:27:03   It is so affordable. It's nine bucks for a single person. And it's not tied to a single

00:27:08   Mac. So if you've got like an iMac and a MacBook, you can install it on both of them. You're

00:27:14   not cheating the license system. Nine bucks and $49 for a team license with no hard seat

00:27:19   limit suitable for small companies and families. Whatever you consider a quote unquote team

00:27:26   and the developer trust your judgment on that. So it's really, really just a super nice app.

00:27:33   So anyway, the last but not least, he offers a 30 day, no questions asked money back guarantee.

00:27:40   So if you go and buy it and spend the nine bucks and within 30 days you think that nine

00:27:45   bucks wasn't money well spent, which I highly doubt. I don't know that anybody, I don't

00:27:48   see why anybody would regret spending nine bucks on this, but all you have to do is send

00:27:52   him an email and just say, Hey, can I get my money back? And with no gimmick or no pushback,

00:27:56   he'll just give you your money back. So go check it out. Radio silence app.com. It's

00:28:02   a fantastic app for the Mac. I really, really love it. And I'm so happy to have him as a

00:28:07   It's a great app. I'm happy to recommend it. So the elephant in the room with this

00:28:14   education event is Chromebooks. And I thought one of the most interesting points of the

00:28:19   whole thing was when Greg Joswiak actually mentioned Chromebooks by name because I like

00:28:26   my ears perked up at that moment because I did not expect that. And it was in context

00:28:31   of iPad performance that with an A10 system on a chip that it outperforms, I'm paraphrasing

00:28:38   here, but I think I'm paraphrasing very closely, outperforms most notebook PCs and virtually

00:28:48   all Chromebooks. And part of the, there's a couple of things that were weird about that

00:28:54   that segment. One was mentioning Chromebooks by name as opposed to "notebook PCs." But

00:29:03   the other thing, and it is an uncomfortable situation for Apple and maybe for Intel, that

00:29:09   the truth is an A10-powered iPad outperforms most MacBooks too. It's one of the recurring

00:29:19   themes of, you know, my show in recent months has been the undying popularity of the MacBook Air,

00:29:25   you know, and the truth is just very simple. That because the MacBook Air is the one that's $999.

00:29:33   That's still the one that most people buy when they go into an Apple store to buy a Mac.

00:29:37   Of course, they want the they want something cheap and reliable.

00:29:40   Well, and for most people, $999 is not cheap. It's actually a lot of money. You know, I mean,

00:29:46   It's, you know, cheap, you know, cheap asterisk for a Mac. Right. And an iPad is, I think, by

00:29:56   almost any measure, a more powerful computer with an Apple A10, you know, system on a chip is a more

00:30:02   powerful computing device, and more way more powerful GPU than what you get in a MacBook Air

00:30:08   or in the little thin MacBook with the,

00:30:12   whatever the low power Intel chip is.

00:30:16   - The core M? - So they can't

00:30:19   really mention that, right?

00:30:20   Like Apple's in a tight spot where they can't quite brag

00:30:24   as thoroughly as they could on technical merits

00:30:27   about the A10 because it would make their Macs look bad.

00:30:30   But the thing is, here's the thing,

00:30:33   here's the whole thing is, but does that matter?

00:30:37   because nobody's buying Chromebooks because they're powerful. They're buying them because

00:30:41   they are dirt cheap and that's really and they are optimized for using Google Docs, which is what an

00:30:49   awful lot of education, you know, a lot of schools are either have already moved or are moving to

00:30:54   Google Docs. And it's effectively a device that was built from the ground up to be like a front

00:30:59   end to Google's online services. Yeah. And I think it doesn't matter that the A10 is more powerful.

00:31:06   I know except I'd say no, no, if all you're doing is using Google Docs, right? If you're just writing reports or sharing spreadsheets or keynote or PowerPoint presentations, I don't think it matters.

00:31:21   But I think the argument from Apple is that's not how you should be educating,

00:31:26   which sounds really pretentious when I put it that way. But, but no, I mean,

00:31:30   I think Apple is saying we can be better for our students and we can make,

00:31:35   we can make education not only more fun for students,

00:31:40   but more fun for teachers and more contextualized and specific.

00:31:45   One of the things that I thought was really cool that they talked about in the

00:31:49   new class kit app or not class kit class. It's the framework. School classroom, class

00:31:55   or schoolwork, classwork, score work.

00:31:57   I think it's, I think one of them is called classroom. And that's the one where the teacher

00:32:04   can manage the kids classes. Yeah. Or the kids iPads in the room. Yes. And we'll talk about

00:32:10   that. We could talk. I would definitely will talk about that in a bit. And then I guess the

00:32:14   other one is the students perspective. Yeah, yeah, schoolwork. And so that's how you can

00:32:19   submit your homework and stuff like that.

00:32:21   Yeah. But what I thought was really interesting about

00:32:23   schoolwork is at first, it just looks like any other managed

00:32:27   education platform like can or like Canvas or Blackboard or

00:32:31   anything. Most of them have been around for a while. And they're

00:32:33   like CMS is which is to say they all suck. And they all have

00:32:36   limitations. But what I thought was an interesting addition is

00:32:41   the idea of, oh, you know, those, you know, hundreds of

00:32:44   1000s of education apps that we have in the store, we're going

00:32:47   to provide a really simple API that they can incorporate.

00:32:50   So now, if you want to assign anything from those apps

00:32:55   as an assignment, all you have to do

00:32:57   is essentially press a button.

00:33:00   And then on the kid's side, they see new homework.

00:33:03   Go to this app and complete this lesson.

00:33:05   And all they have to do is press that button,

00:33:07   and they're automatically zoomed into that app,

00:33:09   specifically to that lesson.

00:33:11   And then the teacher can monitor that portion of it.

00:33:14   Like that, that is an example of something

00:33:17   that no Chromebook will be able to do in a million years.

00:33:20   - Right, and that was the part of the after event demo

00:33:24   that all of a sudden I was totally engaged

00:33:26   'cause I was like, oh, that's very interesting

00:33:28   because it was like the quote unquote teacher

00:33:30   who was like an Apple product marketing person

00:33:33   pretending to be a teacher,

00:33:34   but doing a very good job of it.

00:33:36   It was like, that's the other thing I thought.

00:33:37   - I think they were distinguished educators.

00:33:39   I think all of the teachers in the classroom were--

00:33:42   - I don't know about that

00:33:43   'Cause I think I knew the guy who was doing mine.

00:33:46   Like I've seen him before.

00:33:47   - All right, so maybe they were marketing people

00:33:51   in education, but there were distinguished educators

00:33:54   as the table leads, 'cause I do remember them saying that.

00:33:58   - Yes, yes.

00:33:59   But the part where he was like, okay, everybody's,

00:34:03   you know, buddy up, there's an iPad for every two of you.

00:34:07   We're gonna start the lesson

00:34:08   and we're going to put you into clips.

00:34:11   and all of a sudden the iPad that we had was open

00:34:14   and open to an existing clips project.

00:34:19   And hitting the home button wouldn't take you home.

00:34:24   It's like you're in clips and you're gonna like it.

00:34:27   And I was like, that's really interesting.

00:34:30   I thought that was, and it happened very quickly.

00:34:32   Like the latency on that was obviously very, very low.

00:34:34   It did not, it wasn't like a spinner

00:34:37   or something like that.

00:34:38   It was a solid demo.

00:34:40   it's of course, it's, you know, that you get the utility of that feature is so obvious, you don't

00:34:46   even really need to talk about it. I mean, for classrooms. Oh, yeah. Right. I think about, you

00:34:51   know, I taught at Emerson for a year. And I think about all of this stuff that I had to try and

00:34:56   coax people through with with coding where it's like, okay, here is what's on my screen. Now

00:35:02   we're going to code the same thing or do something very similar, follow along with me, and then

00:35:07   having to go, you know, walk screen by screen by screen to make sure that everybody was actually

00:35:12   doing this and like and figured it out and understood all of it. And the idea that, oh,

00:35:18   yeah, I can handle all of that. I can give every single student a preset and it can live update

00:35:24   with me or it can live update individually with them. I can instantly preview their screen on my

00:35:30   screen without having to walk around. Like there are a lot of really fascinating tools in here.

00:35:36   Thought the other thing that was interesting I don't want to forget it while we're talking about classroom

00:35:40   But then they it was one of the few times where they mentioned the Mac

00:35:42   Yeah, and it was that that you know, this this classroom app is not new for iPad. It's been out for a while

00:35:49   Or at least a year

00:35:51   But they said one of the things we've heard from a lot of teachers is they want to do this from their Mac books

00:35:56   Or I guess just Macs in general if they have like an iMac but yeah the most part from what I've seen at Jonas's school

00:36:03   all the teachers have MacBook Airs, every teacher.

00:36:06   I don't know if they're from the school or not,

00:36:08   but the kids use a combination of Chromebooks,

00:36:11   well, mostly Chromebooks, I think,

00:36:14   other than now that he's older,

00:36:16   he can bring his own device,

00:36:17   but when they were younger, it was a bunch of Chromebooks,

00:36:19   but the teachers had MacBooks.

00:36:22   And so that was interesting to me.

00:36:26   And the other thing that I thought was so interesting

00:36:27   about this was that they said that the Mac version

00:36:30   of classroom isn't out now and won't be out even in beta and it'll be out in beta in June.

00:36:43   And a friend of the show, Manton Reese observed just idly speculating and slack that we're

00:36:50   on that he thought, I wonder if maybe it's because it's classroom for Mac is built using

00:36:57   the marzipan, the rumor, UI kit.

00:37:02   There's this rumor that Apple is working on a

00:37:05   cross-platform-- - The unified framework, yeah.

00:37:07   - Right, to make it easier to do iOS and Mac apps

00:37:11   that share a code base.

00:37:13   And if, for, just, and again, it was just,

00:37:16   he doesn't work at Apple, it's just,

00:37:17   but I thought it was a very keen observation.

00:37:19   And it certainly makes sense with why it would be beta

00:37:23   in June, 'cause I asked Apple, if it's beta,

00:37:25   why not just release it now?

00:37:27   And the answer was just sort of like,

00:37:29   it'll be out in beta in June.

00:37:30   (laughing)

00:37:31   - Can't believe it. - In a way that they--

00:37:32   - Pay no attention. - In a way, right.

00:37:34   In a way that Apple has these non-answers ready to go

00:37:38   for things they don't wanna talk about, right?

00:37:40   Because if it's gonna be finished in June, okay,

00:37:43   but then release the beta now.

00:37:45   But if it's gonna be in beta in June anyway,

00:37:47   why not release the beta now?

00:37:49   And it would make sense if it's depending

00:37:51   on some kind of OS update that will be announced at WWDC.

00:37:55   - Absolutely, and I think Menton is spot on there.

00:37:59   But I am excited that it's coming.

00:38:01   Like I think that that's a really,

00:38:04   and also going back to the demo really quickly,

00:38:07   I thought it was very smart of them to show

00:38:10   how you can do this in a shared environment, right?

00:38:13   It wasn't one to one there.

00:38:14   It wasn't all students have their own iPad.

00:38:17   Like I think Apple is very realistic about the fact

00:38:20   where it's like, if we're gonna charge 299 for devices

00:38:23   in the education market, no,

00:38:24   it's not gonna be a one-to-one classroom.

00:38:26   Most likely people are going to share during a class

00:38:29   and most likely they're going to have to, you know,

00:38:32   swap out between classes.

00:38:33   You know, the kid is not just gonna have the iPad

00:38:35   and then it gets stored in their locker

00:38:37   while they're not using it.

00:38:39   I think it's very, very smart of them

00:38:43   given the price restrictions.

00:38:45   - All right, let me take another break here

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00:42:42   want to talk about before before I forget. She is this feature. It's this feature that is not new,

00:42:48   but somehow I missed last year when it shipped, which is that these education iPads have multiple

00:42:54   sign on. So like you said, a class could have like just a stack of 10 iPads and the kids just come up

00:43:02   and pick one up and they they can just select their you know it'll be set up for the class

00:43:09   already so it'd have a list of all the kids in the class and then you tap your name and you're signed

00:43:13   in to your stuff and authenticated over we should we should know it right does it use touch id i

00:43:22   don't even know i'm not sure if it's such i think it's a passcode yeah i think it can't use touch id

00:43:28   because that couldn't be shared between iPads because it's a secure enclave. But I think

00:43:33   presumably because they're locked down in other ways, they don't really need that much

00:43:37   authentication. You know what I mean? You don't have to really worry about that.

00:43:44   So it's a neat feature. The iPads that we got to demo were set up using it. I thought

00:43:49   it was really cool. But my question is how come this feature hasn't made it to consumers

00:43:53   yet because I think that a family iPad is a thing people would want to have, like an

00:44:01   iPad that just stays on the living room coffee table and anybody in the family can pick it

00:44:07   up and use it. And when they use it, it's them. So their iMessages are coming in. It's

00:44:13   their email they're seeing. There's a platform called the Mac that has had this feature ever

00:44:21   since Mac OS X shipped in 2001, where you can have multiple user accounts on one device

00:44:28   and then you could have like a shared iMac and you just log out and then, you know, somebody,

00:44:33   you know, somebody else in your household can log in. This seems like a feature. Number

00:44:38   one, I know it's a feature people want on iPads, but it seems like they, they kind of

00:44:44   have it working for this classroom.

00:44:45   Yeah, I think they have it working on the software side. But I gotta, I gotta assume

00:44:50   that Apple does not want to implement it until it can either make the secure enclave big enough or

00:44:56   secure enough so that you can register touch ID and or face ID matches for everyone in your family.

00:45:03   Because I think when it comes to classwork, right, obviously passcodes are important,

00:45:10   but I don't think they're as concerned as we have to protect individual people's data because that

00:45:17   That iPad, we look at everything that's happening politically

00:45:21   and everything that's happening security-wise lately.

00:45:24   That iPad may just live in your living room,

00:45:26   but there's also a chance that you might bring

00:45:28   that iPad on a trip.

00:45:29   And if that iPad gets lost, I don't think they,

00:45:32   Apple wants the responsibility of only having

00:45:34   a four or six digit passcode on your iPad

00:45:39   for somebody to crack and then get access

00:45:41   to your banking information or your kid's health records,

00:45:44   for instance.

00:45:46   I think that's my non-educated like presumption

00:45:51   as to why it hasn't shown up.

00:45:53   'Cause clearly, yeah, they have the software.

00:45:55   The software seems to work really well.

00:45:57   - And people use it on their Macs

00:45:59   and people definitely would use it on iPads.

00:46:03   'Cause I think that for a lot of families,

00:46:06   I mean, I guess it would vary,

00:46:08   but I think for some families,

00:46:10   it's a lot like a classroom

00:46:12   where you don't really need a one-to-one iPad

00:46:14   to family members.

00:46:15   No. Maybe I just want people to buy iPads.

00:46:19   Right? Well, that's the cynical answer. They want you to buy

00:46:25   one to one everybody gets an iPad. You get it. You know,

00:46:31   it's possible that that's the explanation. While we're on that

00:46:36   point, I will say this is what why did Apple hold this event? I

00:46:40   think and I forget what was a Boeing Boeing somebody a Boeing

00:46:43   wrote a pretty snarky article pretty much trying to argue that all Apple does is all they want is

00:46:48   the money from the schools for iPads, and I don't think that's the case because

00:46:53   You know, they're not there it's true that they're not giving away these iPads, you know, they are charging schools

00:47:00   $299 for each of them

00:47:03   But it is there by far. They're their lowest price iPad

00:47:08   It's it's not feature. Yeah, it's not robbing people of feature. Like this iPad is probably this is the first time I've ever

00:47:16   recommended the base model iPad over an iPad Pro since the pros got released in part because like the

00:47:24   Processor is solid and Apple pencil support is huge and know the display isn't laminated

00:47:29   But you know, you can you can sacrifice some things for it

00:47:34   Yeah, exactly. It's like these are things that have been nice to have but in order to get the price that low

00:47:40   I mean, we gotta think about when where these iPads started right like for 99 599 price points

00:47:46   It's indisputably a way better display than you get on a Mac 999 MacBook Air because

00:47:53   Fat still doesn't have retina. So it's a

00:47:58   phenomenally better display than a

00:48:01   MacBook Air. I mean, I guess you could argue that the MacBook Air being 13 inches is better for some things

00:48:08   But I think most people would agree that on the whole that's no comparison which has a better display and it's only 229

00:48:15   And the whole show they really they never even mentioned iPad Pro there

00:48:20   There was no insinuation of oh and you could do this on an iPad Pro

00:48:24   You know, it's it was entirely geared towards selling schools

00:48:29   $99 iPads. Yeah, and not even school

00:48:31   I think just it just customers in general who might want to do education based things on their iPad or just have a

00:48:38   Smart iPad that allows them to do a lot of different sub like work on a lot of different subjects

00:48:43   Like this this iPad in my opinion like it may be geared towards schools

00:48:48   With pencil support and a faster processor and everything else that comes along with it, but this iPad is indisputably

00:48:55   This is this is the iPad that's going to weasel its way into a bunch of people's lives because I honestly

00:49:01   Honestly think Apple it bothers Apple that schools are moving towards piece of shit Chromebooks

00:49:08   And that they just think that it's just wrong

00:49:10   you know that you know, we should be giving our kids the best experience they can they can have and having a

00:49:16   Junkie little hundred twenty nine dollar, you know Chromebook that only all it does is show browser tabs

00:49:24   It's just I just think it doesn't sit right with them. I really don't think it's about the money and I think I

00:49:29   Think it's questionable whether this is gonna work

00:49:31   I'm not sure that they can turn this around this trend around but it's

00:49:35   fascinating to me to see Apple try that they care and I think even if

00:49:39   It's as successful as it could possibly be like however successful this renewed push into education with this focus on

00:49:47   the the new 9.7 inch iPad for lack of a better name and Apple pencil and

00:49:54   and some additional pencil-enabled apps.

00:49:57   If it's as successful as it can possibly be,

00:49:59   I still don't think it's a meaningful

00:50:01   amount of revenue to Apple.

00:50:04   - No. - Not meaningless, I guess,

00:50:07   but it really can't be about the money.

00:50:10   It's just not a big enough market,

00:50:13   and it's not a high enough price product

00:50:15   when they're selling 70 gazillion,

00:50:17   $1,100 iPhone Xs in a quarter.

00:50:21   - Oh, of course.

00:50:22   And I think it's also worth noting that their education--

00:50:25   this is not something that Apple necessarily publicizes.

00:50:28   But their education page does say,

00:50:31   we'll work with schools on fees if you want to rent the iPads

00:50:36   instead of buy the iPads.

00:50:37   And we can work with you on purchasing programs

00:50:39   if your school district doesn't have the money to just shell

00:50:44   out hundreds of these.

00:50:46   I think Apple-- and this is the really interesting thing to me

00:50:50   about Apple as a company is that most companies,

00:50:53   if they do what we've called social good in the world,

00:50:58   you get 10 million press releases about it.

00:51:00   And Apple's not immune to this,

00:51:02   I mean, as we can see from their environmental

00:51:05   press releases, but like, I would say the vast majority

00:51:08   of the little wins that Apple does for the community

00:51:12   never get publicized.

00:51:14   Or if they get publicized, they get publicized

00:51:17   because somebody at Apple is really happy about it

00:51:21   and leaks it to somebody so that they'll actually know.

00:51:24   Like, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple, like,

00:51:27   we were talking, I was talking with Jason before the event

00:51:31   about like, oh, all of these lights

00:51:33   that are in the auditorium, this is crazy.

00:51:36   And someone on Twitter was snarking, it was like,

00:51:38   well, if Apple really cared about the school,

00:51:40   they would donate those lights.

00:51:41   And I'm like, we don't know that they didn't.

00:51:44   Like just because Apple didn't put out a press release

00:51:47   saying like, we just spent $30,000 on this school.

00:51:51   Like I think they're doing a lot of good

00:51:53   in the education market that we just never hear about

00:51:56   because it's little projects, you know,

00:51:58   it's like at that Atlanta Georgia school.

00:52:00   Like I can't imagine a low income Atlanta Georgia school

00:52:03   is shelling out for 30 iPads.

00:52:04   Like I have to believe that Apple is genuinely committed

00:52:07   here.

00:52:08   - Yeah.

00:52:09   One thing I heard behind the scenes,

00:52:14   And it's secondhand, so it's, I don't know.

00:52:17   But I heard that part of this renewed sort of 2.0 take

00:52:22   on iPads for education, with 1.0 being started

00:52:27   a couple years back at the Guggenheim show,

00:52:31   I think it was like 2014?

00:52:33   - 2015 maybe? - I think it was

00:52:34   four years ago. - 14, yeah.

00:52:36   - That one of the ways that they're rethinking this approach

00:52:41   is a focus on, it's sort of the upending

00:52:46   the pyramid of sales, right?

00:52:47   Where if you remember like 2015 or so,

00:52:51   there were a lot of these announcements

00:52:52   like LA school district buys 60,000 iPads.

00:52:55   - Yeah. (laughs)

00:52:58   - And there were stories that came out later

00:53:00   that a lot of these schools were unhappy with it,

00:53:02   that it was hard to manage, that the management tools,

00:53:04   you know, that, you know, there just wasn't cut out

00:53:06   to manage 60,000 iPads, et cetera.

00:53:09   and that they're really doing it the other way this time,

00:53:12   where they're really focusing on just like selling

00:53:15   30 iPads to several thousand schools,

00:53:18   as opposed to selling 60,000 to one school district.

00:53:21   You know, it's a much smaller approach,

00:53:26   but that they, you know, obviously hope would multiply

00:53:30   by the number of schools that can do it.

00:53:31   - Yeah, I honestly think that's the better way to do it,

00:53:34   because especially if you think about

00:53:36   what they were talking about in their keynote,

00:53:38   You know, it was all these stories about individual classrooms and individual teachers.

00:53:43   It wasn't like, "Oh, this school district has adopted our things and now they have seen great success."

00:53:48   It's like, no, let's actually tell you what, you know, your teacher next door is doing with this product.

00:53:54   And it reminds me a lot of how the early Mac sold, you know, in terms of like, "This is Mac Paint.

00:54:01   Look at someone paint a picture."

00:54:03   You know, not, not look at the, you know, overwhelming power of this beautiful battle

00:54:08   station iPad.

00:54:10   It's it's it's personal in a way that it hasn't been in a while.

00:54:14   When I was in elementary school, we didn't have a lot of computers.

00:54:18   And I think that the ones we did in hindsight were all sort of spearheaded by individual

00:54:22   I don't know that they I don't think the teachers spent their own money, although in one case,

00:54:26   I think he did that it was like his computer in the back of the classroom.

00:54:32   But a couple of the teachers who did have computers in their classroom had the TI-99-4A.

00:54:39   And it was sort of the Chromebook of the day, because it was a lot cheaper than an Apple

00:54:45   2.

00:54:48   But when I first saw an Apple 2e, I just—I love, you know, of course, unsurprisingly,

00:54:54   I would do anything and everything I could to get as much time on any computer in any

00:54:59   classroom that I possibly could.

00:55:02   when I first saw the Apple IIe, I was just like, "Oh, this is a computer." Right. And it was like,

00:55:13   and you know, had a better keyboard. Everything was nicer about it. And I, you know, I just think

00:55:21   back to the teachers that, you know, it's probably why, I mean, maybe different kids from my school

00:55:26   had different favorite teachers, but like Mr. Leinbach was our fifth grade social studies and

00:55:31   math teacher and he had the TI 99 foray in the back of his classroom. He was one of my

00:55:37   favorite teachers of grade school. He was just, you know, he's everything you would

00:55:41   want in a teacher. He, you know, he was funny, he was engaged, he got to know every kid,

00:55:45   you know, he really, you know, and I just, you know, would remember that he would, he

00:55:50   would, he wouldn't let like the shy kids just pass through unnoticed. Like he'd make,

00:55:56   know, he'd make a point of engaging them. And I think that's the type of teacher apples

00:56:02   still focused on is, you know, sort of enabling the star teachers to, to do the awesome stuff

00:56:08   that they can do even, you know, because let's face it, it's, you know, not every teacher,

00:56:12   you know, not every teacher is great.

00:56:14   Unknown Speaker And not every not every teacher wants to go

00:56:17   above and beyond and, and not even because they don't care. It's just sometimes, you

00:56:22   know, you're, you're teaching seven classes, I think,

00:56:24   or they're just not that good at it.

00:56:28   To be honest, it's an uncomfortable truth.

00:56:30   - I know, I know.

00:56:31   I'd like to believe that you don't go into teaching

00:56:32   without wanting to make kids' lives better,

00:56:35   but I also understand there are other factors.

00:56:38   But I wanna say--

00:56:39   - Yeah, I really detected that in Apple's event,

00:56:41   that this was about,

00:56:42   and they even featured them in the videos

00:56:44   and had a couple of them come on stage.

00:56:46   I will also say, I think, I don't know,

00:56:52   I don't know if somebody kept track,

00:56:54   but I believe that it was the single highest ratio

00:56:57   of women to men at an Apple event ever by a long shot.

00:57:00   - I kept track, John.

00:57:02   - What's that?

00:57:04   - I said, I kept track.

00:57:05   - All right, so what was the,

00:57:06   I believe that the only two men who were on stage

00:57:09   were Tim Cook and Jaws, right?

00:57:10   - And Jaws, yep.

00:57:11   Every single guest presenter was a woman.

00:57:13   And I personally think that's fantastic.

00:57:18   I know some people who are being, again,

00:57:19   kind of cynical about it being like,

00:57:21   well, that's because women are primarily in education

00:57:24   and that just says bad things about our education market.

00:57:27   And I'm like, we can acknowledge simultaneously

00:57:30   that there are issues in education

00:57:33   while also commending Apple for going out of its way

00:57:36   to put women on stage.

00:57:38   And not just women, women of color, women of different ages,

00:57:41   you know, different sizes, shapes.

00:57:44   Like I just, I think any chance to give women the mic

00:57:49   when they haven't been on like competent women. I just, you know, they're not just throwing people

00:57:54   up there who happen to have a female gender, like they're just they are showing Oh, these people

00:57:58   are in education and are really smart and doing really wonderful things. Like that's, that's the

00:58:03   important part there. Right. And you know, and included, but also including Apple employees like

00:58:09   Susan Prescott. Yes, Susan Prescott. Who's amazing. She is, you know, and you could totally see how

00:58:16   she is like a very high level VP and product marketing group.

00:58:20   But she'd like, she like knows those apps don't call like, she's really,

00:58:25   really good. Oh yeah. Without question. She's, she's such a great presenter.

00:58:29   And I'm so glad that we got to see her on stage. But yeah, I mean like it's,

00:58:32   cause you know, Apple doesn't just have three schools that they have iPads in.

00:58:36   Like I'm sure they have hundreds if not thousands. Um, so they had,

00:58:40   they probably had tons of well-spoken teachers to choose from.

00:58:45   and the fact that they went out of their way,

00:58:47   that really meant a lot to me.

00:58:49   Again, in education, it's nice to see people

00:58:52   who are not only doing really interesting things,

00:58:55   but also who are a little bit different

00:58:57   from the voices that we usually hear on stage

00:58:59   talking about STEM.

00:59:00   So that was really cool. - No, I thought it was,

00:59:02   yeah, I thought, and it was a solid event too,

00:59:06   insofar as they did,

00:59:07   'cause they didn't have a lot of news to announce,

00:59:10   it was an hour in and out,

00:59:13   and didn't feel like it was a minute too long. And it's a discipline that most tech companies

00:59:20   don't have. Most tech companies, if they have a little bit of news, they're still going to take

00:59:25   two hours for their event. They can't help themselves. Right. They can't help themselves

00:59:32   because it's like a political thing that somehow Apple has continued to manage culturally within

00:59:38   the company after, you know, without Steve Jobs, that they're still, it's so obvious at some events

00:59:44   how the politics played out where it's like, well, you've got to get if you're going to give, you

00:59:48   know, the guy from Google Docs this much time at, you know, what's Google's developer conference?

00:59:52   Unknown Speaker Oh, it x no.

00:59:55   Unknown Speaker IO, thank you. Yeah, I was like,

01:00:00   Unknown Speaker that's not right. No, we got to give the we got to give the Gmail team some

01:00:04   some time. So we got to, you know, here, and it's, you could just see the politics playing out on

01:00:09   stage by who's up there and for how long. And you really just don't see that at an Apple event.

01:00:13   Katie Grant No, it's it's in and out. I think the, the last thing I kind of want to say on this is

01:00:18   just as somebody who the the whole reason why I am doing what I'm doing today is because I got hooked

01:00:27   on Macs and hooked on computers early. And a big force was that was not only my teachers,

01:00:32   But actually my dad, like my dad who worked at Caltech, essentially got Caltech to donate 30

01:00:39   Mac pluses to my elementary school, like because we had these janky, horrible DOS machines. And he

01:00:47   not only like he got all of this and then when he did it, the school was like, No, we don't have

01:00:52   anybody who's going to teach them. Like no one knows how to use them. So we're not gonna like

01:00:56   we're not gonna accept this. And he's like, Alright, what if I also donate my time as a

01:01:01   teacher and like teach these kids how to use this. And no joke, for the next five years, five, six

01:01:07   years, my dad was volunteer, I think maybe he got paid at the last year, but otherwise he was a

01:01:13   volunteer computer teacher for like four or five years for the LA County School District and like,

01:01:19   or Pasadena School District, like helping, helping kids learn how to use Macs. And I'm like, I have

01:01:27   no doubt.

01:01:28   That's amazing.

01:01:28   Yeah, exactly.

01:01:29   That's truly amazing.

01:01:30   But that's the kind of thing is like, I know there are people out there right now who are doing that

01:01:34   with iPads and doing that with computers. Like you said, it's like, it's the people who go above and

01:01:38   beyond and they really do make a difference in people's lives. Like, my dad made a difference

01:01:43   in my life for many reasons, but like that, that is a chief one of why I'm reporting on Apple

01:01:49   these days. So.

01:01:50   Trenton Larkin I've told this story before, but it's, to me,

01:01:52   it's evergreen. And it feels like a natural point to bring it up, which is that I never owned a

01:01:58   a computer until I went to college. And I desperately wanted one from the moment I first

01:02:04   encountered—we had like an Atari, we had a video game system, but I couldn't get

01:02:08   a computer. But I only wanted an Apple. I didn't want to settle for like a Commodore

01:02:14   64. And they were expensive. And my parents didn't really—but the funny thing is that

01:02:21   most of my friends who wanted to get a computer, the argument from their parents would be,

01:02:24   "I'm not spending all that money on a computer. You're never going to play it,

01:02:27   You're only gonna play games, you know, you're not gonna use it

01:02:29   My parents argument for not buying me a computer was that if we buy you a computer, you're never gonna leave

01:02:34   So I was so irrationally angry

01:02:41   I'm like you're not you're even admitting that I'm gonna get you know

01:02:43   However much it cost you I'm gonna get every penny of value out of this and you won't buy this thing for me

01:02:49   That I'm and I'm still thinking about it like every day. That wouldn't be like a day of my life like

01:02:56   Like I don't know third fourth grade on where I didn't think boy. I wish I had a computer

01:02:59   In sight in hindsight though, I I'm still I still don't agree with their decision

01:03:09   But I do agree with the fact that they were probably right that I wouldn't know if that's I know I definitely

01:03:15   There's definitely a significant portion of my social life that was spent on my iMac and on my iBook not not in real life

01:03:23   So yeah, I agree

01:03:25   - I think I've told this story before too.

01:03:27   So like in between 10th and 11th grades,

01:03:32   our high school, it was a small public school district.

01:03:36   And they had back in like the 70s through like the mid 80s,

01:03:40   they had three schools, an elementary school,

01:03:43   a middle school and a high school.

01:03:45   And population dwindled a bit.

01:03:48   And so they closed the middle school and just had one to six

01:03:52   went to the elementary school, seven to 12 went to the now

01:03:55   called junior senior high school.

01:03:56   And between 10th and 11th grade,

01:03:59   they switched buildings for the junior senior high school

01:04:03   from the old high school building

01:04:05   to the shuttered for a decade former middle school

01:04:09   because the roof was so leaky.

01:04:12   Like that's literally how public education works.

01:04:14   Where like, it seemed so daunting to fix their leaky roof

01:04:19   that they literally moved the school

01:04:21   from one building to another.

01:04:23   And they hired a bunch of kids.

01:04:24   I was, my summer job was helping to move the school.

01:04:27   But the computer teacher did, Mrs. Spatz,

01:04:30   who was a fantastic teacher on my, you know,

01:04:32   really truly ran a great high school,

01:04:36   junior high school computer science program

01:04:39   for a public school.

01:04:40   And look where I am, you know, obviously, you know,

01:04:45   she did something right.

01:04:46   But she was worried about letting like movers

01:04:50   move the computers.

01:04:51   So she let some of the kids who she trusted

01:04:55   take them home for the summer.

01:04:56   So I got to take an Apple IIGS home for the summer

01:05:00   'cause she trusted me more to take good care of it

01:05:05   and then bring it back in September.

01:05:07   And so I had an Apple IIGS for the summer

01:05:09   and I was like, I was like on it like every waking moment

01:05:13   that I could and my parents were like, see,

01:05:17   that's why we didn't wanna buy you one of these things.

01:05:21   Again, they're not wrong but but I'm sure you got a great use out of it that summer. Oh

01:05:27   Love that computer. What a great what a great computer that was

01:05:30   Alright, let me take it one last break here. Thank our third and final sponsor

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01:08:06   of the talk show.

01:08:07   All right, here's another one I don't wanna forget.

01:08:11   - Shoot.

01:08:13   - Along the lines of why do education iPad users

01:08:17   get multiple sign-ins and consumers don't,

01:08:19   and I'm stealing this from you from our shared note.

01:08:23   This was actually your observation,

01:08:24   but I'm taking credit for it,

01:08:26   is how come education users get their base storage for iCloud bumped to 200 gigabytes

01:08:33   and everybody else is stuck at 5 gigabytes?

01:08:35   JENNIFER WISDOM I'm still cranky about this. I'm sure

01:08:37   it's coming at WWDC. I'm sure it's going to be part of some iCloud announcement. And

01:08:42   maybe it's not even going to be two. Maybe it's going to be like, "Everybody's going

01:08:45   to have a terabyte free now because we need to keep up with Dropbox and Google." But

01:08:51   I'm sure they want to do it like that and they didn't want to muddy up their education

01:08:56   announcement with a consumer announcement. So until then we

01:08:58   suffer.

01:08:58   Right. Right. I hope so. Because, and Molten, I always

01:09:04   joke when he's on that, you know, the entire tech punditry

01:09:09   class is an expert at spending other companies money, you know,

01:09:14   like we call it spending Tim Cook's money. So it is easy to

01:09:18   say Apple, you know, Apple is so successful, they have so much

01:09:21   money, they could afford to give people 200 gigabytes or

01:09:24   whatever. I realized it's not my money. But at this point, five gigabytes is so stingy. It is it

01:09:32   feels mean. It doesn't it's not even enough to back up anybody's iPhone at this point,

01:09:36   especially with like a photo library. Like, no, right? It really, you know, like, storage and RAM,

01:09:44   as they, you know, continue to grow. It's, it's silly thinking, you know, we're, we were just

01:09:51   talking about like the, you know, our childhood days of, you know, using a Mac

01:09:56   Plus, you know, like, would you have a Mac Plus, you said?

01:09:58   Yeah.

01:10:00   Yeah, and necklace.

01:10:02   Yeah, probably had like two, two megabytes of RAM, maybe one megabyte of

01:10:06   RAM. I think it's something like that. Like, yeah, crazy. But at the time at

01:10:12   that time, though, it was like, well, that's amazing. Because the original Mac

01:10:14   only had 512 kilobytes of RAM.

01:10:20   Everything grows but it there comes a point where you grow past it and you're like well

01:10:25   How the hell did we ever use those for anything like thinking about like floppy disks?

01:10:28   and it's like you just create like a pages document and you drag some images in and you hit command s and you go and

01:10:34   Look and there it is and it's you know, like six megabytes and you're like, well, what the hell if that's like

01:10:40   I just made like a word processing document. It's already six megabytes

01:10:43   There's hardly anything in it and a floppy disk was only

01:10:47   1.4 megabytes and then you know other people are like 1.4. I remember 700 kilobyte floppies, you know

01:10:53   Five gigabytes for online storage feels like fly like a floppy disk at this point, right?

01:11:01   It's just it were shooting these these devices have these magnificent cameras that shoot 4k video

01:11:07   It I

01:11:10   It really stuck out that's one of the other points of the event where I was just like come on

01:11:15   And I guess you're right that they just didn't want to muddy an education event with a consumer event and WWDC will be here soon enough

01:11:21   But boy, I sure hope

01:11:23   WWDC's keynote doesn't come and go without

01:11:26   an announcement on that front

01:11:29   yeah, it's I mean if it if it does then somebody somebody done screwed up because

01:11:36   Yeah, it's it's it's past time Apple. Like it's not we need that hard. We need more storage

01:11:43   Everybody everybody is you know, and it's just such as it's such a pressure point and people don't want to pay there

01:11:49   You know, so it's saying hey, it's not that expensive, you know, you just for like a dollar a month

01:11:54   You can get upgraded to a pretty good amount people aren't gonna do it and it's irrational. I admit it's irrational

01:11:59   And 11 it's completely irrational to be happy to buy an $1100 iPhone 10 and

01:12:07   Completely refused to spend a dollar a month to upgrade your iCloud storage and then just you know

01:12:13   I'll just not have online backups. It's irrational, but that's the way people are.

01:12:19   People don't want to pay for stuff like this. They just don't. It just does not compute

01:12:22   to them that they should have to pay for it. They don't really know what iCloud is, right?

01:12:27   That's the thing. They're like, "I don't even know what the iCloud is. What's my iCloud?"

01:12:32   That's sort of the nature of the well-designed system that iOS is that you don't really have

01:12:39   to know. You don't have to understand what different buckets, what's the difference between

01:12:43   iCloud Drive and your iCloud photo library and the other different ways that you interact

01:12:51   with iCloud. You don't really have to know about it, but that's why people don't want

01:12:57   to pay for it because they don't even know.

01:12:59   Yeah, well, exactly. And it's not like Apple has made it very simple. And they really could.

01:13:04   They could just say, hey, your files up your iCloud library, your photo library is in there

01:13:08   now, everything that you're paying for.

01:13:10   It's for files, pay for files, just like Dropbox, but for your Mac.

01:13:15   And it's like, especially with you know, what have you tried the new pages and numbers and

01:13:19   keynote updates yet?

01:13:21   I don't know.

01:13:22   I did jumping topics a little bit.

01:13:24   No, but I just got the notification.

01:13:27   Like, you know, how like when you first open one of those docs after one of those apps

01:13:32   after they have an update they they have it's like it is like

01:13:37   Apple's version of sparkle you know the updates you know your

01:13:41   app but they can't the apps can't update themselves like you

01:13:44   have to go to the App Store it's like go to the App Store

01:13:46   yeah exactly it's I wish I wish it would be easier to do that but

01:13:51   regardless pages is I mean I don't want to not knock on wood

01:13:57   here but like pages is functional right now and not

01:14:00   just functional. Like pages is pretty, pretty good. And then it's pretty good on the web, too. And I tried collaboration, and I didn't want to tear my hair out. So, so I look at that. And granted, I've only been using it for like two days, there's still plenty of time for it to mess up and make me hate everything. But like, I look at that, and I'm saying, okay, well, Apple clearly wants to put some time and, you know, money into this into investing, you know, perhaps making its iWork suite on par with

01:14:30   something like Office 365 or Google Docs, then it needs to have the easy storage system

01:14:36   and the easy storage system space to keep up with it.

01:14:40   So it's like the 200 gigs, I think that's partially, yeah, they're making all kinds

01:14:47   of movies and stuff like that.

01:14:50   But partially I think it's because now when you create a pages document, you automatically

01:14:54   go into the files app first where it's just like, "Here's your files app.

01:14:58   would you like to save this document? And yeah, I don't know. I think that that makes it a little

01:15:03   bit easier to stomach and understand. I'm intrigued by the new feature and key or not

01:15:08   keynote pages where you can use the pencil to circle in LA to make like corrections. So

01:15:14   there the demo example, of course, was a teacher correcting the students paper, and underlining a

01:15:23   first sentence of a first word of a sentence that wasn't uppercase. So underline it to show that that

01:15:29   needs to be uppercase, and then circling another word. But then as you make subsequent edits, those

01:15:34   annotations aren't just at an x y coordinate on the page, they, you know, the same word that you

01:15:42   underlined stays underlined as you enter like a new paragraph. That's pretty cool.

01:15:47   It is. It's really cool. And in theory, this is really isn't all that much different than

01:15:52   commenting on something, right? But what I really appreciate, and again, it's kind of, it's old school

01:15:57   Apple, where they're like, "Hey, we know that lots of teachers and lots of copy editors, oh, hi copy

01:16:03   editors, we know that you like editing things by hand. We know that you don't necessarily want to

01:16:08   double tap to highlight a word or phrase and then type out a long comment. You want to use the

01:16:12   shorthand that you've been using for years. So here's a way for you to use shorthand and have it

01:16:18   work the same way that a comments section works. It's

01:16:22   like, it's such a brilliant little feature. They don't

01:16:25   technically have to enter, like make, but they made.

01:16:28   Yeah. So what is have you figured out the full story on

01:16:35   ebook software? Now? Like? So, all right, tell what is going

01:16:42   on? Okay.

01:16:45   Alright, so baseline, I guess like the history lesson here is when Apple first got into ebooks,

01:16:52   they got into ebooks in kind of a haphazard way through pages.

01:16:56   This was like 2010?

01:16:58   2011?

01:16:59   I want to say?

01:17:01   Early early early, they're like, "Hey, people want to make ebooks in a way that's not just

01:17:06   tearing their hair out through InDesign or hand-coding it themselves, so let's make a

01:17:12   a super rudimentary export option in pages. And that was awful. I mean, it was great in

01:17:19   that you could make an ebook without using InDesign. But it was also awful because you

01:17:24   had no idea what kept as styling and what disappeared because Apple didn't actually

01:17:29   have that like nice little compatibility window that it has now where it's like, this didn't

01:17:33   export properly. So you were it was a guessing game for a long time being like, does this

01:17:39   work in an e-book? Does this work in an e-book? No? Okay. So after about a couple years of

01:17:46   that, Apple's like, "Hey, maybe we should make a better tool that doesn't quite suck

01:17:50   as much, especially because with the iBook store and everything, we want to give people

01:17:56   the opportunity to make these really beautiful, nice-looking books because e-books in general

01:18:02   suck. They suck to look at. They're a great idea, but they just don't look pretty."

01:18:08   So Apple took what was a burgeoning format in terms of EPUB 3, but it was still very

01:18:14   early.

01:18:15   It was like early days of HTML5 when it was in beta, right?

01:18:19   Where just like half of the things didn't work and they didn't work properly across

01:18:22   all platforms.

01:18:23   So Apple said, you know, screw this, we're going to wrap EPUB 3 in our own custom .ibooks

01:18:29   format, which is essentially the EPUB 3 format with some extra CSS, like some custom CSS.

01:18:35   unlike WebKit, basically. And they're like, "Here, we've made you a program called iBooks Author

01:18:42   that can make these books." But the catch is it can only make these .ibooks custom,

01:18:49   you know, proprietary books that can only be read on the app store or on the iBook store,

01:18:53   because the other competing bookstores will not know what the heck to do with this.

01:18:58   So that's kind of been their book strategy for a while is, "Oh, if you want to build like a

01:19:04   simple book, you can do it in pages. But if you want to do anything with graphics or anything with

01:19:10   stylization or fonts,

01:19:12   And to have smart, smart, like support for rotation, so that if it's on an iPad, and you're

01:19:17   holding it in landscape, you get a different layout than holding it in portrait.

01:19:21   Exactly the difference between a fixed format and a reflowable book, which reflowable you can change

01:19:27   the text size. So, you know, they've had this for a few years. But the the big problem, of course, is

01:19:33   that almost as soon as they made it, EPUB 3 started getting decent. So about, I'd say about a

01:19:41   year after iBooks Author came out, EPUB 3 started implementing all of these fixes and changes that

01:19:49   kind of made the iBooks format look really janky. And be like, well, you could do video embed, you

01:19:57   know, the way that the iBooks format does it, or you can do video embed the way that the EPUB 3

01:20:03   store or the EPUB 3 format doesn't. And I think the iWork team was in a bit of a pickle because

01:20:09   they're like, "Well, we have EPUB 3 support in pages, but the pages implementation right now is

01:20:15   non-existent other than rudimentary text. We could build off of that, but we also have this

01:20:22   custom book application that we just spent a lot of time putting effort into, so we're not really

01:20:27   sure what to do. And I think the the answer here became, well, we've got this custom book

01:20:34   format. And it's going to be around a little bit longer because we can't do everything

01:20:40   that we want to do in pages with EPUB 3. But we're going to put all of our mental might

01:20:46   behind pages and EPUB 3, because we've already built it for iOS, and we've already built

01:20:52   it for the web. So really, for us to expand upon it, all we have to do is put in more

01:20:57   tools and hook these things up. Whereas for iBooks Author, it would be like, it would

01:21:02   be a whole lot more work for us to not only port it over to iOS, but if we're still

01:21:08   porting it over to iOS with the .ibooks format, then we're still working on this like super

01:21:12   janky format. So the the TLDR of the situation is that iBooks Author still exists. It's

01:21:19   It's not being discontinued, it's not disappearing, but I don't think it will exist for much

01:21:26   longer.

01:21:27   I think it will probably stick around for another year or so and maybe get some security

01:21:31   updates, but by and large it looks like Apple's tying their horse to pages as saying, "Hey,

01:21:41   this is a really—we're going to make this the best word processing app that we possibly

01:21:44   can on the Mac."

01:21:46   we basically want it that no matter what document that you're creating, you can export whatever

01:21:51   you want, whether that's a book and you want it to make it look like a book, whether you

01:21:54   want to export it as a PDF, whether you want to export it as a poster and print it, like,

01:21:59   we just want to give you one app to do all of these things. And so that's

01:22:04   Yeah, I thought after I remember asking you after the event, like what the heck was going

01:22:09   on with iBooks author, I thought the fact that they didn't even mention it, I expected

01:22:12   that by the time the event was over, the iBooks author wasn't even in the App Store anymore.

01:22:16   - Nope.

01:22:17   - So it is, that's not true.

01:22:20   It is still there.

01:22:21   I'm looking at the page in the app store right now.

01:22:22   But the fact that they never even mentioned it was,

01:22:26   about as proof positive as you're gonna get

01:22:30   that their answer to how do you make custom books

01:22:34   for, how do you make a book is use pages.

01:22:40   - Yeah, well, and I mean, there's good reason for it.

01:22:43   The pages, I haven't played with it a whole lot,

01:22:45   But the new pages stuff for books is pretty thorough for the basics.

01:22:52   It's pretty thorough for text, for galleries, for video.

01:22:56   Where it gets a little bit questionable, and which by questionable I mean not possible,

01:23:01   is when you get into iBooks authors more like niche features like the popovers that were

01:23:06   made or like the HTML5 widgets.

01:23:10   Pages doesn't support those yet and I don't know if they will.

01:23:13   Like I'd like to believe that they're going to add glossaries and like figure numbers

01:23:16   and things like that to pages because it seems like a thing that would be pretty easy to

01:23:20   add in a roadmap.

01:23:22   But some of the more niche like iBooks author features, there's a question on whether or

01:23:26   not it makes sense for them to add that.

01:23:30   And that's why that still exists.

01:23:33   The file format story then is that if you use iBooks author, you're still making dot

01:23:39   iBooks books.

01:23:40   Yes.

01:23:41   you use pages, the new version of pages and export,

01:23:44   you're gonna export EPUB three?

01:23:46   - Yeah, so you're gonna make a book that's able to be read,

01:23:50   whether it's fixed format or flowable,

01:23:52   it can be read on an iBooks,

01:23:55   it can be theoretically read on a Kindle,

01:23:57   it can be theoretically read on another ebook reader,

01:23:59   like that's the open format.

01:24:01   - Yeah, so that does sound better.

01:24:05   And I don't think that they created the,

01:24:07   I think you're right, I think, you know,

01:24:09   I don't think they created the iBooks, .ibooks format

01:24:12   just out of proprietary file format lock-in, yay.

01:24:17   I really think it was because they wanted to enable

01:24:21   interactivity and an attractiveness,

01:24:24   for lack of a better word,

01:24:25   that EPUB wasn't up to at that point.

01:24:28   And sometimes, you know, it's a very Apple-like thing to do,

01:24:31   is just, we're not gonna sit around and wait

01:24:34   for the standards group to take years over this,

01:24:36   we're just gonna go do it.

01:24:37   You know, and you can catch up. We're just going to make a thing. You know, but I think

01:24:45   in general, though, this it's a better the idea of a sort of, but not even sort of a

01:24:49   real standard format being the de facto, here's the file format you pass around is a better

01:24:55   situation.

01:24:56   Yeah, I agree 100%. And I say that as somebody who has made terrible books and pages in the

01:25:02   2011 days and also made books in iBooks Author and in InDesign. Like I've used pretty much all of the things that you can do and

01:25:10   for me ultimately

01:25:12   I want something that's going to that's going to be easy to edit and that's going to look nice when I export it and

01:25:19   pages

01:25:21   especially with the drawing like the the addition of the drawing features is a

01:25:25   Small like may seem like a small thing but is really gonna allow you to kind of personalize to fix format books

01:25:31   in a way that I don't think you really could before

01:25:36   because of the way that images overlap and everything else.

01:25:38   And I think it allows just for a lot more design in general

01:25:43   that was then was previously available in pages.

01:25:46   And to, you know, I don't even mind,

01:25:48   I don't mind designing fixed format books

01:25:50   if they're gonna look beautiful

01:25:51   and the text size is gonna be, you know,

01:25:53   people can zoom if they wanna read it like that.

01:25:57   But by and large, you just make the text big enough

01:25:59   that it's easy to see for the majority of the population. And then you put in the accessibility

01:26:04   features for people who want voiceover. All right, there's an item here in the show notes. I don't

01:26:10   know what this is a reference to you say keynotes, hidden animation program. What is what is what is

01:26:15   this? I don't know what you're talking about. Okay, so there's a there's a feature in keynote

01:26:19   that's been around for a while called magic move, which is essentially just, you know, you take

01:26:25   object A, and you keyframe it and you say, okay, object A is going to go to object B. And then you

01:26:32   press play and it moves to object B, either in a straight line or a squiggle or you know, however

01:26:38   you'd like it. So there's there's that that's like rudimentary animation. It's literally just taking

01:26:43   a static object from here and then moving it to there. But what's really cool, in addition to

01:26:49   Magic Move is that Keynote has added an auto draw, like kind of like procreate's recreation

01:26:56   of your drawing. But Keynote has added this inside the keynote program. So that if you

01:27:03   draw anything in keynote, and then you animate it, it will actually like re like auto draw

01:27:10   basically what you've just all of the strokes that you've just done. And it's not true animation,

01:27:16   Obviously, you're not going frame by frame by frame, but it does add a lot of personality

01:27:23   to slides, especially slides that have drawings in them.

01:27:26   So if you want to like, you know, you can draw a sunscape, for instance, and then have

01:27:30   it turn to rain by adding more clouds and erasing certain things.

01:27:34   And it's, I don't know, I think as somebody who's tried all of the animation programs

01:27:40   on the store and finds them all tremendously lacking, Keynote's not going to replace an

01:27:45   actual Mac animation program. But I think it will give a lot of

01:27:49   kids who are interested in animation and even adults who

01:27:52   are interested in animation, really easy tools to play around

01:27:57   and start learning about things like keyframes and things like

01:27:59   Mag, like match moves. And I don't know, I, I'm really

01:28:04   excited about it. I think it's really cool.

01:28:05   People use keynotes, one of those apps that people use in

01:28:10   very different ways, right? Like I know some I know people who

01:28:14   effectively sort of use it as an outliner, like just not like they're making a presentation

01:28:18   for somebody else, but if they're just sort of working on a big project and they want

01:28:22   to get their ideas into an outline format, they use Keynote and then the left side sidebar,

01:28:27   you know, you think about it, it's an outline and they like it as an outliner. And it's

01:28:32   like, well, why don't you use like OmniOutliner or something? And I go, no, I like this because

01:28:36   they're used to it. And one of the other weird uses of Keynote or I would like unexpected

01:28:42   would be like UI designers who use it for, I think, and it's exactly what you're talking

01:28:45   about for the animation features, where if you want to show, you know, like you're going

01:28:52   from this screen and if you tap here, it will go to here, but you want there to be, you

01:28:57   know, an animated transition. There's people who, it's obviously not like the main point

01:29:04   of the app, but it's, you know, surprisingly oft used for like mocking up rudimentary user

01:29:11   interfaces with transitions. Like that's, I think that's the key to its appeal in that area is that

01:29:18   soap modern apps, you just don't expect that when you tap something, and you're going to a new

01:29:24   screen that the new screen just pops into place, you expect some sort of animated transition. And

01:29:29   it's, you know, yeah, screenshots alone are hard to hard to express that with.

01:29:35   Yeah, I can see it also you I mean, I could see this very easily working in tandem with other apps

01:29:42   to become like a like a storyboarding app almost. Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah, I think that's exactly

01:29:48   Yeah. All right, not too many items left on the agenda here. But one of them is this weird,

01:29:55   not weird, but interesting product from Logitech, the crayon, right? So yeah, Apple, how much does

01:30:01   Apple pencil costs was a 129 No, Apple pencil is 9999 in the US 129 in Canada and 89 for

01:30:09   education customers.

01:30:10   All right. Well, crayon is a new product from Logitech. And but it's like, and again, it's

01:30:19   hard to get a straight answer from Apple. It's they were admitted that they worked with

01:30:22   Logitech on this, but like just to what degree it's so it's it's a great answer. It's a pencil.

01:30:29   - It's an Apple Pencil.

01:30:31   It uses Apple Pencil tech,

01:30:32   but it's not pressure sensitive.

01:30:34   - Correct.

01:30:35   - So that's the one thing that the real Apple Pencil has

01:30:37   that the crayon doesn't.

01:30:38   And the other difference,

01:30:39   and I thought this was really interesting,

01:30:41   is that it doesn't have to be paired with the iPad.

01:30:46   So a classroom with 10 iPads

01:30:53   and 10 of these Logitech crayons,

01:30:55   a kid can come up and grab any crayon and any iPad

01:30:59   and it'll just work.

01:31:01   - Yep, exactly.

01:31:02   - But then, I guess it's a downside,

01:31:06   but the weird thing about it is that they're only selling it

01:31:09   to the education market and it's $49, not $99.

01:31:13   So it's half the price of the Apple Pencil,

01:31:15   but they're only selling it to education right now.

01:31:18   And then I, again, I asked,

01:31:20   all right, it's education only right now.

01:31:23   Are there any plans for it to be sold to consumers?

01:31:26   And the answer was it's education only for now.

01:31:28   Or Logitech has announced that it's education only.

01:31:31   - I got a, "We'll see."

01:31:33   Which to me indicates that,

01:31:39   well, especially given how many Logitech accessories

01:31:43   I've covered in the past,

01:31:45   Logitech has a little bit of problem,

01:31:47   not problem per se, but like they scale up

01:31:50   a little bit more slowly than Apple.

01:31:52   let's, I'll put that, put it that way. So I imagine what will happen, especially the crayons not going to be available until summer, right? So I imagine the crayon, like, they're going to start it in the education market, A, to see how much of a demand there is, and B, to see how much of a demand there is in the consumer space too, and kind of see, oh, are there a million people asking for the crayon? Well, maybe we can release this in the mainstream.

01:32:20   But I say that and I look at Logitech's other education only bit for the low cost iPad, which is the rugged case.

01:32:27   And the rugged case uses the lightning port in a very similar way that the smart connector is used, right?

01:32:33   The case, you know, it's designed to be a very rugged, like its name, a rugged case to prevent your iPad from breaking if it drops.

01:32:41   But it also has this heavy duty Logitech keyboard attached to it.

01:32:45   But the case itself snaps into your iPhone's lightning port.

01:32:49   And then there's like a little mini smart connector at the bottom of this case that snaps into the Logitech keyboard next to it.

01:32:56   So so they've essentially also made a smart connector keyboard for the low cost iPad without actually needing a smart connector.

01:33:06   So that same principle with the crayon, you know, they don't have to worry about pairing Bluetooth, pairing Bluetooth keyboards or charging Bluetooth keyboards.

01:33:15   It's just plugging things in with lightning.

01:33:18   - So that's one of the little asterisks of this event is,

01:33:23   and we've mentioned it several times already,

01:33:28   but the cost of these things, it's a big deal to schools

01:33:31   because schools for whatever,

01:33:33   we could do a whole show about how weird and sick it is

01:33:36   that the richest country in the world

01:33:38   has underfunded schools,

01:33:40   but that's the world we live in

01:33:42   is our schools are terribly underfunded

01:33:43   teachers are having to do things like buy their own paper and pencils and stuff. So a $300 iPad is a

01:33:50   significant expense. But the asterisk here is that for a lot of these schools, the Logitech Rugged

01:33:56   case is not really an option. It's mandatory. So it's not really a 299 iPad. It's a 299 iPad plus

01:34:07   a Rugged Combo case, which I think is $100 or $100. I forget what it is.

01:34:12   hundred bucks yeah it's i think it's 100 bucks and then it's sold in packs of 10

01:34:16   so you can't even get it individually yeah so uh you know and you know and it's it's this

01:34:26   apple being apple where apple's not going to make a case that's so ugly i mean and it's ugly because

01:34:31   it is so literally rugged it's well named but schools aren't going to buy these ipads and give

01:34:37   give them to the kids without putting them in a rugged case.

01:34:40   - Yeah, no question.

01:34:42   - Did you know this?

01:34:43   That one of the reasons that it uses the lightning cable

01:34:46   is, you probably knew this, but maybe you didn't.

01:34:50   A couple people I talked to at the event had no idea,

01:34:53   but there's a bunch of standardized tests

01:34:55   that kids can take on computers now.

01:34:57   They don't have to do them all on paper

01:35:00   with your number two pencil.

01:35:02   You can take standardized tests on a computer,

01:35:05   but there's the testing apps mandate

01:35:10   that you can't have any wireless connectivity

01:35:13   while the test is being taken.

01:35:15   For obvious reasons. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:35:16   For cheating. - So you can't use WiFi,

01:35:17   but you can't, the thing that kills a lot of the products

01:35:21   that schools might otherwise use for a keyboard

01:35:23   is you can't use Bluetooth.

01:35:25   And the app that the kid is in to take the test

01:35:28   literally won't run if Bluetooth is enabled on the device

01:35:32   for anti-cheating purposes.

01:35:34   So there has to be an electrical wired connection

01:35:39   from the key press through to the iPad.

01:35:43   And that means for an iPad that doesn't have

01:35:46   a smart connector, it would have to be

01:35:47   through the lightning port.

01:35:48   - That is fascinating.

01:35:49   I did not know that, but it makes a lot of sense.

01:35:52   - But that's the other, you know,

01:35:54   but they have to, and I think they have to have

01:35:55   a keyboard too, like you can't take these tests

01:35:57   without a hardware keyboard.

01:35:59   It has to be, you know, there's like a set

01:36:00   of specifications for it.

01:36:03   but I thought that was pretty interesting.

01:36:05   But it's an essential combination.

01:36:07   And it's just kind of interesting to see Apple pairing

01:36:10   with a company like Logitech to do this.

01:36:13   As an essential component of using this in a school,

01:36:16   you've pretty much got to go to Logitech to get the case.

01:36:20   - Yeah, there really isn't, there aren't alternatives,

01:36:26   not good ones at least.

01:36:27   I guess you can buy adapters for everybody

01:36:30   and then plug in a USB keyboard.

01:36:32   I guess. Right. Right. I don't even know. I don't know. It's it. You know, it's one

01:36:39   of those. I just a bunch of rules and I could see why they would have a bunch of rules,

01:36:43   but it just seems like it would be a pain in the ass to have to deal with it. All right.

01:36:47   Last but not least is the one thing that they did not announce at this event that I kind

01:36:51   of thought that they would, even though it doesn't fit with an education theme is where

01:36:56   the hell is the air power charging pad? Like we're rocking, you know, did they say spring

01:37:02   did they say March? I think they said 2018. They said early next year or something. There's

01:37:09   something has gone terribly wrong with this product because it was originally meant, it's

01:37:14   clear that it was originally meant to debut alongside the iPhone, the iPhone, iPhone eight

01:37:19   and iPhone 10. Yeah. You know, so plan B on Apple's wireless charging story was obviously

01:37:28   the fallback to the recommended products they have from Mophie and Belkin and the fact that

01:37:35   they work with any standard Qi charger. But plan A was obviously to have the Apple super

01:37:47   even better than the standard charging pad ready to go in September. And now here we

01:37:52   are at the end of March and they still don't have it out. And who knows, maybe they will

01:37:57   have another event between now and WWDC? No, I don't see it. I see it. April's it maybe?

01:38:04   I don't think so either, but I don't think it's impossible. Like April, they've had events

01:38:11   in April before. I don't think it's impossible, but I don't think it's likely. But that means

01:38:15   if they don't have another event, that the earliest it'll come out would be WWDC. And

01:38:21   it's like nine months late. No, I just think they'll press release it. I think they'll

01:38:25   do it the way they did the AirPods, where the AirPods just suddenly appear.

01:38:30   Yeah, I guess so. I guess it doesn't have to wait for an event. Yeah, I guess you're right.

01:38:34   Because they've already announced, like they've already announced it. They've already previewed

01:38:37   it on, you know, on an event floor. I don't think they need an event to announce it. But I agree.

01:38:43   I'm kind of shocked that it hasn't shipped yet.

01:38:45   Yeah, something I would love to hear the backstory on it. But something has obviously gone terribly

01:38:51   wrong on this where if not only didn't ship on time in September, it's now three months into 2018.

01:38:58   And it's still like nowhere to be seen. We can file it alongside iMessages for iCloud and

01:39:04   airpower or AirPlay two. Yeah. All right. Well, the last last one last thing I want to talk about

01:39:11   is is the current state of the iPad lineup seems a little out of whack because the iPad Pro models

01:39:18   are based on the same A10 architecture as the new 329 iPad.

01:39:23   And presumably there will be A11,

01:39:29   or maybe they'll call it the A11X,

01:39:31   as they have in the past where the iPad

01:39:32   gets a slightly different system on a chip

01:39:34   than the current generation iPhones.

01:39:38   Presumably there will be new iPad Pros this year,

01:39:44   but if so, when? - Yeah, I think it's

01:39:46   dubbed up, dubbed up DC.

01:39:48   That's my thought.

01:39:49   - I guess.

01:39:50   It makes more sense than holding another event, I think,

01:39:54   but right now, until they do,

01:39:58   it's left the current iPad lineup in a weird state.

01:40:01   Like, I wouldn't recommend an iPad Pro at this point.

01:40:03   - I mean, I would not if you can wait, for sure,

01:40:08   but I think it's the same state

01:40:09   that the Macs are in, kind of, you know?

01:40:11   Where it's like, we've seen this before,

01:40:13   when the Mac, back when the MacBook Air, MacBook Pro line,

01:40:16   were kind of straddling similar spheres, the MacBook Air would get updated. And then the MacBook Pro would get updated like a month or two later, because we were waiting for like Ivy Bridge or whatever nonsense Intel was delaying that that quarter. But I will say like the pros, if you absolutely have to buy a pro today, the 10.5 still is like, at least stats and benchmark wise, like the A10X and A10 are practically two different chips, despite technically sharing the same architecture.

01:40:45   Like it's it's something like twice as fast and single and multi core. And then you've also got the four gigs of RAM versus two gigs of RAM, which plays a big deal. Like there's a big difference played into that. So it's like it's the the 2018 iPad, you know, it outweighs the the last year's 2017. And it outweighs the original 9.7 and 12.9 iPad Pro.

01:41:08   But like on an overall scale, like iPads Pro are still still in a pretty good spot. But I tend to agree with you. Like I wouldn't, I'm not going to actively say go buy an iPad Pro. Because I do think that we're going to see new ones in in June.

01:41:24   Yeah, and my guess would be it because one of the things that's

01:41:30   kind of pretty predictable about Apple, like the Mac schedule is

01:41:33   kind of hard to predict. Right? Because it's like, all of a

01:41:36   sudden, yeah, Intel's chip. Maybe we'll go seven years

01:41:41   without updating the Mac Pro. Who knows? Other times, it's

01:41:45   like never happen. Other times, it's like nine months after a

01:41:49   new MacBook Pro ships. There's a speed bump update. And because,

01:41:53   you know, like you said, like Intel comes out with a new thing, Apple switches to the new thing,

01:41:57   but like the Intel chip lineup, like I've, I've lost my, my will to understand it. I don't care.

01:42:06   It's so weird.

01:42:06   Yeah, I just don't care. I cannot get into a new core seven or I seven, whatever. I don't care. I

01:42:15   don't, it doesn't, it's not just too, too complex, too, too confusing to me. Whereas Apple's internal

01:42:22   chip update is very easy to predict. Like a new iPhone comes out in September and they

01:42:27   call it the A whatever the last number was plus one. And eventually that chip makes it

01:42:34   into the iPad. Sometimes around March, sometimes I guess a little later. But you can kind of

01:42:41   count on there being an annual update to the iPad that catches up to the current top of

01:42:48   top-of-the-line iPhone a series chip I don't know that that alone is a reason

01:42:55   not to buy an iPad Pro right now if you really want one but to me it's the fact

01:43:00   that the iPhone 10 was this sort of true like 2.0 rethinking of the way iOS works

01:43:08   and my guess is that the next iPad Pro will come with face ID and oh yeah and

01:43:16   and other interaction on screen that mimics the iPhone 10 where you go to the top for,

01:43:22   you know, because I that's, I don't use an iPad enough to, I honestly, I have one and

01:43:28   I use it sometimes. But at this point, the way that it doesn't work like my iPhone 10

01:43:33   makes me crazy because I'm swiping at the wrong place for everything. And I just, there's

01:43:36   no way that I can keep both of them in mind. Like, you know, every podcast on the earth

01:43:41   as you know, it's mentioned like, you know, you get it, you switch to an iPhone 10. And

01:43:46   at first you're lost. But seriously, it doesn't even take a whole week, just give it a few

01:43:49   days and all of a sudden, you know, it's all natural and you get the new multitasking from

01:43:54   switching up and you get used to going to the top right for control center, etc, etc.

01:44:01   But I can't now when I use an iPad, I my finger goes to the wrong spot for everything. And

01:44:07   I'm like, I forgot how to multitask the other day.

01:44:09   I was like, how the hell do I switch apps?

01:44:12   And I was like, oh shit, you have to double click the button.

01:44:15   - No, don't double click the button.

01:44:17   No, use the multitasking gestures.

01:44:19   - It's just weird though, right?

01:44:23   It's like this device-- - It's the same thing.

01:44:24   It's exactly the same.

01:44:25   This is the funny thing to me.

01:44:27   No, I agree with you.

01:44:28   I agree with you in that it's frustrating

01:44:31   because like for instance,

01:44:32   control center is on the bottom instead of the top.

01:44:34   But like the swipe gestures,

01:44:36   the swipe gestures were all pioneered on the iPad

01:44:39   before the iPhone X existed.

01:44:40   - I'll give you the swipe gestures,

01:44:42   but like control center, it makes me crazy.

01:44:43   - Control center is annoying.

01:44:45   Yeah.

01:44:46   - Right.

01:44:47   - I agree with you there.

01:44:47   That pisses me off.

01:44:49   - And honestly, the lack of face ID

01:44:51   is just the most maddening thing.

01:44:52   I'm like, why am I having to do

01:44:54   this ridiculous fingerprint thing here?

01:44:56   This is ridiculous.

01:44:57   Like this device should just, you know.

01:45:00   So I don't know, that would be my thing.

01:45:04   But I think you're right though.

01:45:05   I think I would guess WWDC.

01:45:08   I don't know.

01:45:09   - Yeah, I'm leaning towards WWDC,

01:45:11   especially the 10.5 came out last year

01:45:14   and the update to the 12.9.

01:45:16   So theoretically we are on that schedule, right?

01:45:20   It will have been a year since the newest iPad Pro

01:45:24   has been released when we hit WWDC.

01:45:27   So it would make sense to add that in there again.

01:45:30   And also I look at it from a, if like, for instance,

01:45:33   if Marzipan really gets released,

01:45:35   this summer or it gets put into dev beta

01:45:38   for release in the next version of macOS and iOS,

01:45:41   like a really supercharged iPad Pro

01:45:45   that kind of bridges the gap there

01:45:47   would I think be a really smart move.

01:45:50   - Yeah, yeah, I could see that.

01:45:52   Anything else you wanna talk about for this event,

01:45:55   for education, for what we expect in the next few weeks?

01:45:58   I think we covered it all.

01:45:59   This was pretty good. - Yeah, I think,

01:46:00   I mean, I'm curious to see when AirPower is gonna come out.

01:46:03   The only other thing that I had on my list

01:46:05   which doesn't really relate to the event was just,

01:46:08   Tim Cook talked to Kara Swisher and the Recode folks

01:46:11   about Facebook and privacy,

01:46:13   which was a really interesting interview.

01:46:15   I'm really curious to see the full thing.

01:46:17   I'm kind of sad that I couldn't stick around

01:46:19   to see it in person in Chicago.

01:46:22   - Yeah, I couldn't either.

01:46:23   - Yeah.

01:46:24   - And it's like, I don't know,

01:46:26   I guess they kind of kept it secret.

01:46:28   I mean, I only found out about it like a day in advance.

01:46:31   - Like the day before, yeah.

01:46:32   - Yeah.

01:46:33   - Like P.S.

01:46:34   - Yeah, I think I probably,

01:46:36   I almost certainly would have stayed one more day

01:46:37   just to, I would have stayed for that, what the heck.

01:46:40   I love Chicago, Chicago's a beautiful town,

01:46:41   but I was like, I've already got my flight booked.

01:46:45   - Yeah.

01:46:46   - And it was too late to move it, so.

01:46:48   - Exactly.

01:46:49   So there was that, there was Apple's sort of

01:46:54   re-envisioning of their privacy controls

01:46:57   to have the website so that you can download

01:47:00   all of the information from Apple services

01:47:03   and delete or deactivate your account more easily,

01:47:06   which is, that's coming in May, I think.

01:47:08   And that is pretty cool,

01:47:09   if only because it's been super frustrating

01:47:12   to try and delete and manage an Apple ID.

01:47:14   So I'm hoping that will be a little bit easier.

01:47:17   And then there's the, there's 10 point,

01:47:20   or 11.3 came out without, without AirPlay 2,

01:47:24   which I'm not surprised about, but.

01:47:26   - It's another one.

01:47:28   It's like they can't win on any product with Air in the name.

01:47:31   It's like.

01:47:32   Networking apparently networking is really hard who knew?

01:47:34   But the the interesting thing of 11.3 and there are like a lot of little fun things in there

01:47:41   But like I really love Apple has a new indicator anytime they're gonna ask for your information

01:47:47   And a new kind of screen that pops up and an icon that shows up anytime that they're gonna ask for anything

01:47:54   That's potentially privacy related and again in the age of like all of the Facebook stuff

01:48:00   I find that really soothing in a way just to be like hey here are these two little buddies in

01:48:05   Circled in blue. This is just to let you know that we might be requesting your personal data

01:48:09   So maybe you should look a little bit harder at this screen rather than you know, just gloss over it and press accept

01:48:15   Yeah, it's funny. I feel like Facebook has been I can't talk about it extensively

01:48:21   I've long suspected that Facebook has been

01:48:28   Running out of rope on this and that for years Facebook has had an institutional almost complete disregard

01:48:35   Or lack of respect for their users privacy

01:48:38   they'll track anything and everything that they can and

01:48:42   They've never really been called out on it

01:48:46   I mean, there's obviously some people who've said, you know forever like I'm not comfortable with this

01:48:52   You know what they do, but the you know, the literally billions of people who use their product

01:48:57   and there's very few companies in the world

01:49:01   that can measure their user base in billions.

01:49:03   - Billions, yeah.

01:49:04   - Obviously, it didn't really seem to care

01:49:10   and only cared about the utility of,

01:49:13   yes, this is a fun way to stay in touch with family

01:49:16   and share photos and yada, yada, yada, privacy.

01:49:21   But I feel like it's catching up to them now,

01:49:23   like with the whole Cambridge Analytica story

01:49:25   about the way that this information could be abused.

01:49:29   People are like, "What?"

01:49:30   And then there was a thing where it's like this,

01:49:34   the Facebook version of you can download

01:49:36   all your Facebook data and people are doing it.

01:49:38   And like, apparently on Android,

01:49:41   like Facebook logs everything you do with your phone.

01:49:44   And so it's like the one guy was like,

01:49:47   "It's got a list of every phone call I've made

01:49:49   "for like the last two years.

01:49:50   "What the hell is this doing in Facebook?

01:49:51   "This is so bizarre."

01:49:53   Right. And people, you know, people see find out about stuff like that. And then they're like,

01:49:59   what is wrong with, you know, this company? And it's like, you know, it's democracy at work,

01:50:05   and it works, you know, too slowly. It's like the old, what's the old adage that democracy is the

01:50:09   worst system of government other than all the other systems? Yeah, exactly. But it's like,

01:50:15   lawmakers are catching on to it, too. Right. And they're like, hey, you know, and they're like,

01:50:20   they're slowly looking at Facebook. And I think Facebook is at that moment where they've kind of

01:50:24   got like their collective finger in their shirt collar. And the cookie jar shoes. Right?

01:50:33   Yeah, they're they're not in a great place. And that's like I said, I like I really like

01:50:39   Apple's approach to that. I mean, I've liked Apple's approach to privacy for a long time now.

01:50:42   But I really appreciate again, if there's a big honkin blue icon on any request for privacy,

01:50:50   it allows me to really pay attention to that dialogue as opposed to Facebook's like,

01:50:54   can we have your contacts? Press here to not not give us your contacts.

01:51:01   I will say this, I'm glad I remembered this, but just as a to add a everything

01:51:10   regarding Apple in this issue is not great. I think it's under remarked upon Apple's

01:51:18   I was gonna say complicitness, but that sounds like a pretty scathing word, but I'll go with a

01:51:26   couple of complicitness in Facebook's collection of information from iOS users by having Facebook

01:51:32   built into the OS for I think it was around five years. Like they removed it in iOS 10, I believe,

01:51:41   but from like somewhere around and I could be getting a version number wrong, but somewhere

01:51:45   around iOS 4 or 5 through iOS 9, Facebook and Twitter were built into the settings app

01:51:52   and you could authenticate with Facebook and then that would enable app developers to skip

01:51:58   having their own thing. So if your game wanted to save data and do something in a way that

01:52:05   like Game Center wasn't set up to do, you could do it through Facebook and you wouldn't

01:52:09   have to write your own Facebook code, you could just call into the system. Facebook

01:52:14   collected a lot of information about a lot of iOS users through all of the app data that

01:52:19   they collected by having that feature built in. And I think it's pretty clear that Apple

01:52:26   got rid of that feature, not because it wasn't being used, but because they realized it was

01:52:31   a mistake strategically and ran counter to their beliefs on privacy.

01:52:39   Yeah, I completely agree. I think as Apple was developing a system...

01:52:44   I think if they had it to do all over again, Apple wouldn't do it.

01:52:47   No.

01:52:47   If they had it to do all over again, they never would have built it in.

01:52:50   Maybe they would have spent more time on Game Center, which still is half broken.

01:52:54   Although, hey, did you know as of 11.3, you can delete friends individually now?

01:52:58   So you don't have to delete them all in one go, but you still can't add friends.

01:53:03   You still can't add new people.

01:53:06   I haven't opened a Game Center app in a long time.

01:53:08   Well, that's because it doesn't exist anymore, John.

01:53:11   The app is gone.

01:53:12   The app has been gone for two years.

01:53:14   Well, that would explain why.

01:53:17   How do you manage it then?

01:53:18   No, that's the point.

01:53:20   For the last two years, since they've deleted the app, you can't manage it.

01:53:23   So for a while, your only option was just delete all friends or you just kept your existing

01:53:28   ones.

01:53:29   So I have the Game Center friends that I had when I left Macworld.

01:53:33   So it's basically all of my Macworld colleagues and like three of my friends, which is really

01:53:38   obnoxious if I want to like actually compete with people. Like when I was playing Alto's

01:53:43   Odyssey, it was literally like me, Jason Snell, Dan Frakes, and Panzer, I think is on my friends

01:53:50   list right now.

01:53:51   The game thing is a real example where Apple's, for years, they'd be like, "Hey, how do I do

01:54:01   this in game? I want my game to sync this data between the iPad and the iPhone version."

01:54:07   It was like, "Ah, you can't actually do that in Game Center, so we recommend you use Facebook.

01:54:11   And if you trust the system level Facebook thing, you could store the data." Apple was

01:54:17   recommending it, and games were a big reason for it. I mean, did Facebook really collect a lot of

01:54:22   interesting information from people who were playing games where they saved their data

01:54:27   through Facebook? I don't know. But I feel like Apple realized-

01:54:28   Let's not ask that question because you're going to be depressed.

01:54:31   Right. So, yeah, don't be surprised at what they could get out of it. Right.

01:54:36   Exactly. Probably, you know, like location data, there's all sorts of stuff they could have gotten.

01:54:41   So, yuck. Yeah, but so you know, I don't think it's a huge deal. I feel like Apple is overall

01:54:48   on the right side has been on the right side of the privacy story from a, you know, early way

01:54:54   before most people saw it as a big issue. But I don't think the record is perfect. I think that

01:54:58   that integration that they had for years was, was the single worst thing Apple's done privacy wise,

01:55:05   in my memory. Anyway, thanks for being here. Everybody can find your writing, your good work

01:55:16   at iMore, and on Twitter you are—I don't remember your username. What's your username?

01:55:23   It's Saturn. S-E-T-T-E-R-N. It's a nonsense word.

01:55:28   S-E-T-T-E-R-N on Twitter. You can see how well prepared I am for this show.