The Talk Show

209: ‘Blaming a Platypus’ With Matthew Panzarino


00:00:00   All right, I'm just gonna say this, right? I want I want everybody listening to know you do not have to hit pause. You don't have to skip.

00:00:05   Gonna talk a little bit about the last Jedi right here, but it will be the most spoiler free discussion you could possibly imagine. I totally understand that the movie just came out, and that many or most of you listening to this probably haven't seen it yet.

00:00:18   But I do want to talk about it briefly and then most completely spoiler free way possible.

00:00:23   But you don't have to skip I promise you, you have my word.

00:00:29   Matthew, you had a very exciting story of seeing the movie, right?

00:00:32   Oh, yeah. Yeah. I ended up seeing the movie on the Disney Studios lot on Monday, because they had

00:00:46   did a couple of press showings. I didn't go to the premiere, which was on, I think, Friday or

00:00:52   something, the red carpet. But I did get to see it on the lot, which was fun. I mean, there are

00:00:57   theaters obviously top-notch, you know, salmon and visual quality,

00:01:01   all of that stuff. Um, but getting, getting to see it on the lot was,

00:01:06   was a lot of fun.

00:01:06   That's a pretty cool story. I saw it last night and the first showing in a

00:01:10   regular centerplex here, um, liked it a lot.

00:01:14   Yeah. I saw it last night for the second time too. Uh, I went into it and this is

00:01:19   why I am sensitive to the spoilers.

00:01:21   I went into it knowing less about this movie than any star Wars movie.

00:01:26   movie I'd ever seen in my life. And I've always tried to remain spoiler free. But for some

00:01:30   reason, my media blackout strategy was more successful this time than any previous movie.

00:01:39   I had seen the poster. But I did not look because it was like unavoidable to not see

00:01:45   the poster, but I never looked closely at the poster. Didn't see a single

00:01:50   You just looked at it in the corner of your eye.

00:01:52   Yeah.

00:01:52   But I won't even describe any aspects of the poster.

00:01:57   This is how sensitive to spoilers I am.

00:01:59   And anybody who has the media blackout strategy that I do for this,

00:02:03   that I won't even describe any visual elements of the poster,

00:02:06   just in case somebody more successful than me has not even seen the poster.

00:02:10   That's how sensitive to the spoilers I am.

00:02:13   And then the last--

00:02:15   the biggest break, the biggest crack in the dam of my media strike blackout

00:02:20   strategy was I was in New York Tuesday night for the Wednesday morning briefing for the

00:02:26   iMac Pro that we're about to talk about. And I had dinner with a dear friend of the show,

00:02:32   Renee Ritchie. And coincidentally, while we're at dinner, you texted me, "Hey, are you in

00:02:38   town?" A little slightly too late to throw you into the mix for dinner. But I got in

00:02:43   a cab to go back to my hotel after dinner and this stupid little TV in the back of the

00:02:49   to the cab starts it's the way it like you your cap it doesn't kick in until

00:02:55   you're like 30 seconds into the cab right car and it cuts into a commercial

00:02:59   for the last Jedi and I had to look at it so that I could figure out where to

00:03:04   jab my finger to shut it off and I saw you button there the off yeah yeah I saw

00:03:09   one shot from the movie that I again I won't describe it at all but I saw a

00:03:17   a shot from the movie that I would consider a very, very, very mild spoiler. But still

00:03:23   was more of a spoiler than I'd gotten. And I can't believe that it gets you thinking

00:03:27   then. And then your brain's like, what does that mean? Does that mean this? It was a shot.

00:03:34   It was like a two shots. It was like two shots of a scene that put two characters in a certain

00:03:38   situation and it made me think, how did they get in that situation? And the most amazing

00:03:47   part about the success of my blackout strategy was that we were even at Disney World for a day over

00:03:57   Thanksgiving. We were down in Florida and spent a day at the Magic Kingdom and I thought this is

00:04:01   gonna be this is this is where it all breaks down. So the Disney's gonna put something up here that

00:04:06   you know breaks it but I didn't I didn't see anything I didn't see any toys I didn't see I

00:04:11   I didn't see anything that ruined it. So I was super successful. Anyway, I,

00:04:16   anybody, last thing I want to say about it, I thought it was good. Um,

00:04:20   I think I enjoyed it more than, um, uh,

00:04:26   the force awakens, which I also enjoyed. Uh,

00:04:29   but I do want,

00:04:31   I do want everybody who's a star Wars fan who listens to the show,

00:04:34   you gotta go see it soon. You cannot wait.

00:04:35   Cause I do want to have a star Wars, uh,

00:04:39   spectacular episode of the talk show probably, you know, tradition would, would put it around

00:04:44   new years. So before the end of the year, you got to see this movie or else you're gonna

00:04:48   have to skip the star Wars spectacular episode of the show.

00:04:50   Yeah. I mean, I've got, I've got so many things to say about it. I mean, I've been talking,

00:04:56   I have a private chat group that I've been talking with about this and we've been going

00:05:01   back and forth with about it since, since everybody saw it. We sort of like created

00:05:06   a branch of our normal chat group to talk about Star Wars so that people who hadn't

00:05:12   seen it didn't have to get spoiled.

00:05:15   And the branch has been going nuts.

00:05:17   We've been kind of going back and forth.

00:05:19   Because I guess we should just stop it there.

00:05:22   But all over Twitter this morning people are reacting to the movie, obviously, but there's

00:05:27   a sort of meta reaction to the reactions.

00:05:30   Because I guess it's rated very well by the critics, but the audiences aren't liking it

00:05:35   so much, you know, like the rating wise. But I think that's, that's about as far as we

00:05:39   need to go with that. But I, I found it interesting, you know, that the audiences were like, you

00:05:44   know, had some feelings about it that weren't as positive as the critics did. But I think

00:05:49   that that, in my opinion, obviously it's, it's a, it's a good movie and definitely worth

00:05:54   seeing that's as far as I'll go with it.

00:05:56   Yeah. And then, you know, I'll just mention it, but that the remarkable tie in to this

00:06:02   podcast is that the writer and director of the movie is Ryan Johnson, who was on my show to talk

00:06:09   about his previous movie looper three or four years ago, with coordinated with friend of the

00:06:14   show, Adam, lonely sandwich, Lisa gore, which was amazing. And it's funny, and I know I get emails

00:06:23   about this. And I have to fix it, I will fix it, I have those episodes. That episode was in the era

00:06:28   when I was on the mule network. And the idiots at mule, they're good friends. But I think

00:06:34   it was I think it's stupid to let the website lapse but their website went away. So right

00:06:38   now like the canonical archive for that show is like a 404. And I have the files, I just

00:06:45   need to integrate it back into the thing I hosted during fireball right now. But anybody

00:06:49   who does want to listen to it, you actually can if you just go to the internet archive

00:06:54   and look up the old talk show on the mule mule radio. I'll put a link in the show notes

00:07:03   I swear with a link to that episode in the internet archive so you can listen to it,

00:07:08   which was it's just an amazing thrill to me that I've actually met because we actually

00:07:13   recorded that episode in sandwich videos office in L.A. So it was actually face to face, you

00:07:18   know, which I think makes for a better episode. But anyway, it's still thrilling to me that

00:07:23   I actually did an episode of the show with the writer and director of the movie. Pretty

00:07:29   cool. He's doing a cool thing on Twitter too, Rian Johnson, where his, you know, it's obviously

00:07:34   the biggest movie he's ever directed. And it's the opening weekend. And he's using his

00:07:39   Twitter account to like, link to a couple of other movies that are opening this weekend

00:07:45   and telling people to go see him. So it's just a really cool thing. Again, I can't say

00:07:50   that he's my friend. He's a guy who I met for three hours in LA one afternoon, but everything

00:07:55   I know from reading interviews with him and from the time I did spend with him, he, he

00:07:59   honest and, and Adam, Lisa Gordon knows him better than I do. He really is a, by all accounts,

00:08:07   a genuine, you know, the type of person who would just do that, like want to, you know,

00:08:12   help somebody whose movie might get lost in last Jedi hoopla weekend, which is pretty

00:08:18   cool. So anyway, I was in New York. You were in New York. There was a briefing. How many

00:08:27   people in the press were there? About a dozen? Yeah, I mean, it's hard to tell because there

00:08:33   were several groups that went through, but it seemed to be about that. Yeah, maybe a

00:08:36   dozen, maybe 20 members of the press. And it was pretty, I thought it was well done.

00:08:44   I thought it was a really good roll out and I also liked the way that like this was Wednesday

00:08:50   of this week and then on Tuesday the day before was it Tuesday or was it Monday when a bunch

00:08:56   of reviews came out? I forget but it was a day or two before.

00:09:01   Yeah Monday I think.

00:09:03   Okay so then Monday a bunch of reviews of the new Mac Pro came out and I thought it

00:09:11   It was a really interesting selection of people who got seated.

00:09:15   They all got it for about a week.

00:09:17   Um, among them, uh, Craig Hunter, who I linked to it during fireball,

00:09:23   he's a aerospace engineer and iOS developer.

00:09:26   So that ticks, uh, sort of kills two birds with one stone,

00:09:31   like where he can test it from two different perspectives. Uh, right.

00:09:34   Uh, Marquez Brownlee, better known as MKBHD, uh, uh,

00:09:39   very well known, very successful YouTube, I guess, YouTuber, and who has been clamoring for better

00:09:48   high-end professional Mac hardware because he shoots his videos with an 8K red camera

00:09:56   and has been editing on a 2013 Mac Pro, which at the time was such a gorgeous, wow, this is an

00:10:04   an impressive machine and it in late 2017 as 2017 comes to a close it makes you laugh

00:10:11   thinking about editing 8k video in it on it right who else got it oh cable Sasser from

00:10:17   panic was given one trying to think who else but some developers some video people I forget

00:10:26   but it was you know and I thought it was a really good rollout and I thought an interesting

00:10:32   in my opinion, to the iPhone 10 rollout where that initial batch of here's the first people who've gotten to see iPhone 10 were like these

00:10:40   Fashion YouTube type people. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was it was like a

00:10:48   Obviously a an iteration on that thing that they did with the iPhone 10 of saying hey

00:10:55   Here's some people with internet audiences who may not read mainstream publications or even

00:11:01   tech industry publications or whatever,

00:11:04   that we want to sort of give an early look at

00:11:08   so that they can talk to those people in their own voice

00:11:12   and the people that watch them like TV or whatever

00:11:16   instead of regular TV will get that look.

00:11:19   So it was less I think about,

00:11:23   and it may have been somewhat,

00:11:25   about seeding the early buzz with relatively low levels

00:11:30   relatively lightweight positive hands-ons,

00:11:33   you know, because they weren't reviews.

00:11:35   - Right.

00:11:36   - They were like, hey, look at this thing, right?

00:11:36   And then there was a couple of them

00:11:38   that actually got to like use the phone

00:11:40   and live with it for a few days.

00:11:42   - But not in that first batch.

00:11:43   - Still though, very much impressions.

00:11:45   - But in that first batch, it was really,

00:11:47   and it wasn't even clear, like part of it,

00:11:50   it wasn't even clear to me and I pay close attention to it,

00:11:52   but in that first batch, they were in New York

00:11:55   in the same building where Apple's been holding

00:11:58   all these briefings recently.

00:11:59   I don't even know how you would describe it.

00:12:02   It's like a big, I wanna say townhouse,

00:12:04   but it's so much bigger and wider than a typical townhouse.

00:12:07   It's, you know, just a big penthouse, three stories.

00:12:11   - Yeah, I mean, I could be wrong,

00:12:13   but I think that there were some people

00:12:14   outside of that group, though.

00:12:15   There was, I know what you mean.

00:12:17   There was a set of people that they got together

00:12:19   and they brought into that room,

00:12:21   and you could tell because you looked at the YouTube videos

00:12:23   and they're all the same, right?

00:12:24   They're all the same surroundings and everything,

00:12:26   and they brought them in there and had them play with it,

00:12:29   and then they cut together what we would call in the business

00:12:32   like a social cut, right?

00:12:33   Like a cut of video that is primed for social

00:12:37   or for YouTube or whatever the case may be.

00:12:39   And some of them cut them differently than others, right?

00:12:43   There were some folks who actually I thought

00:12:44   did good commentary, like they were sitting there

00:12:47   talking to the camera, giving commentary,

00:12:48   and then they would cut to them like handling the phone

00:12:51   in that room, you know?

00:12:52   But you could tell that they didn't have it, right?

00:12:55   They weren't like, "Hey, you know, I've had this,"

00:12:57   and blah, blah, blah.

00:12:59   But I think there was some other influencers,

00:13:00   and I can't remember off the top of my head right now,

00:13:04   but it's, that had it, that actually they gave it to,

00:13:08   but maybe I'm wrong.

00:13:10   But I, for the, by and large,

00:13:12   the first batch of stuff that we got was that.

00:13:15   It was those people that they brought into this room

00:13:18   to like handle it for an hour or two,

00:13:20   and then they went and cut together a video from it, yeah.

00:13:23   - Right, and you know, I had some public snark

00:13:27   about that strategy.

00:13:28   for the iPhone 10. And then a couple of people, like when MKBHD's video dropped this week

00:13:35   for the iMac Pro, I got a couple of tweets like, "Ah, YouTubers again, how come?" And

00:13:42   I was like, "No, no, no, you guys are nuts." MKBHD might have been, if they had, Apple

00:13:46   had asked me, "Name one person who should get the iMac Pro a week in advance for the

00:13:51   first review." He might have been on my short list of people who I would have suggested

00:13:55   because what he would do would be exactly what needs to be done, which is truly stress

00:14:00   test the performance of it.

00:14:03   You know, and it's literally what he does all day, you know, so it's I really like the

00:14:10   the philosophy of it's not necessarily like, hey, who's a good reviewer of hardware? Because

00:14:15   that's fine. You know, that's definitely one way to look at it. But it's, hey, who would

00:14:20   would actually use this hardware in the pursuit

00:14:23   of what they're doing, of whatever profession

00:14:26   that they're in.

00:14:27   And in the case of YouTubers shooting high-res video

00:14:32   and needing to turn it around quickly

00:14:35   with a lot of visual tricks and cutting

00:14:38   and all of that stuff, it definitely fits the bill.

00:14:42   And that's why I think it's like a nice iteration

00:14:44   of what the iPhone X stuff, 'cause iPhone X,

00:14:47   whether you like it or not,

00:14:48   whoever's viewing those videos is definitely a different audience than the typical audience

00:14:54   you would get in either print or web publications, and that's fine.

00:14:58   But I think that in this case, the pre-seed, or whatever you want to call it, the people

00:15:03   that were given the Mac Pros, iMac Pros, excuse me, early, were definitely people that would

00:15:10   use them in day-to-day scenarios, and it was a nice spread across from software developers

00:15:18   to, they had some people in there doing medical stuff, they had people doing audio professional

00:15:27   work, right?

00:15:28   Right.

00:15:29   Logic Pro, amazing experts like high-end producers and stuff of Logic that use Logic Pro, and

00:15:34   they had people obviously doing video and that sort of thing.

00:15:36   So it was a nice wide gamut of people.

00:15:39   And they did not necessarily just cede it to people who just love Apple.

00:15:44   Right.

00:15:45   Right.

00:15:46   Like, "Oh, well, okay.

00:15:47   gush about Apple all the time.

00:15:48   They ceded it to people who I felt expressed publicly many times, like, you know, frustration

00:15:54   or, or, you know, criticism or whatever, not unwarranted and but also not, not necessarily

00:16:01   reactionary, right?

00:16:03   Or, or unresearched or whatever they actually look, these people are critics because they

00:16:08   care.

00:16:09   We're going to give them this thing that we think will solve or, or address some of those

00:16:13   criticisms about Apple and pro users over the last x days or months or years and we'll

00:16:18   see what they think. So I thought that they did a good job of balancing that out. It wasn't

00:16:21   just like, let's give Apple friends this thing and so they could say it's great, you know?

00:16:25   Yeah, I thought that was good. I thought Craig hunters was a good example of that where he

00:16:29   was saying like, here's, you know, he was running like an aerospace simulation of like,

00:16:33   here's a wing from a certain airplane. And let's run these tests to get the aerodynamic

00:16:39   properties of this wing which as you know, even a layperson can understand yeah, probably pretty CPU intensive

00:16:45   Right or GPU. I don't even know but you know one or the other it's computationally

00:16:50   Difficult and is like here's a bunch of machines

00:16:55   I've run the same test on over the last few years and it you know included some Macs like like I think

00:17:01   Mac Pro maybe a MacBook Pro but a lot of the other tests that he'd been running in recent years were on Linux servers

00:17:08   You know which again shows you that it's not just from a somebody who's only using Apple hardware and only coming from that

00:17:14   You know, whatever it is. It's going to be a Mac perspective

00:17:17   You know somebody who's who's as

00:17:20   Just looking for the fastest compute possible and therefore is you know more than happy to be, you know, just run it on a Linux server

00:17:27   Yeah, and there's I think there is a

00:17:35   position on the behalf and I tweeted about this a little bit yesterday because I basically what I said was

00:17:40   You know that my the time

00:17:42   Writing about it was that

00:17:45   iMac Pro is a love letter to developers and I think people took that to mean

00:17:49   That Apple had solved all the developers problems and this is the perfect computer for all developers and that you know some sort of like

00:17:56   You know, hey geography of their

00:17:58   Efforts to build this computer, right and you know, if if you read the article

00:18:04   it's not that, but it also, the way that I was going with that is that not necessarily that I meant that this computer was the best computer for all developers, which is definitely how some developers took it and took exception to it, which is fine. You know, you gotta gotta be willing to take the heat if you're gonna jump in the fire. But the way that I meant it, which felt came through if you actually read the piece, is that it was their effort to, to write that letter, and to send it.

00:18:33   And now whether you're not, you're in love, or whether or not you believe them, or whether

00:18:38   or not it is right for you is a whole different matter.

00:18:41   But I do believe it showed a distinct effort by them to address a market that wants an

00:18:46   integrated machine, and a machine with an incredibly great screen and high res and all

00:18:52   of that stuff, and a lot of power to do whatever they want, but doesn't necessarily need the

00:18:57   modularity and buys a new computer every probably four to five years anyway.

00:19:02   And this thing should scale for that period of time.

00:19:05   And I think that Apple sees that.

00:19:07   They see in market terms what you would call a product that goes under another product's

00:19:15   umbrella.

00:19:16   Right?

00:19:17   So they have the umbrella of, let's say, the Mac Pro.

00:19:21   You have this high-end umbrella where people need modularity or whatever.

00:19:25   And then down below that, you have things like MacBooks and things like that, which

00:19:29   which people use professionally,

00:19:30   but don't necessarily obviously have the graphics power,

00:19:33   specifically, for instance, of something like the Mac Pro.

00:19:37   And they figured that there's this bolus of people

00:19:40   that were taking iMacs and configuring them

00:19:43   to try and fit them into that gap.

00:19:46   They were using iMacs in professional settings

00:19:49   and configuring them the best that they could

00:19:50   to get them into that area.

00:19:52   And they're like, "Hey, we can just fill this in

00:19:55   and capture that portion of the market."

00:19:58   So I think from a market perspective, that's the strategy,

00:20:01   and that offering is to those people.

00:20:05   And then I think that the people that take exception

00:20:07   to that offering or find that it's lacking in some way,

00:20:10   which is 100% valid, they are more than welcome

00:20:14   to feel that way, and those feelings are valid,

00:20:16   and I'm not trying to shoot anybody down

00:20:17   that says this isn't the computer for them,

00:20:18   and be like, no, it's the computer for everybody,

00:20:20   'cause it's not.

00:20:21   But it definitely fits a market that they aren't seeing,

00:20:25   but that Apple is seeing, you know?

00:20:27   And I think that they're out there.

00:20:29   And I ran a little poll and my poll pointed out, my poll, which is obviously biased and

00:20:36   limited by my followers and blah, blah, blah, right?

00:20:39   This is not scientific.

00:20:41   But the poll, which you obviously did go out to a lot of people who follow me because I

00:20:45   cover Apple, so you got that going for you in this case.

00:20:50   It basically came out to a lot of people are going to buy this computer and they're software

00:20:54   developers and they like it.

00:20:56   And then there was a smaller but very sizable chunk,

00:21:00   like half or quarter of that in response,

00:21:04   that said, "No, I'm gonna wait for the Mac Pro."

00:21:06   And I think that's exactly what Apple sees.

00:21:08   I honestly think that ratio is exactly what they see.

00:21:11   They see a big chunk of people that will buy this computer,

00:21:13   and they see a smaller chunk of people

00:21:14   that are gonna wait for the Mac Pro,

00:21:16   and that's why they're building it.

00:21:17   All right, it's a longer, longish thing,

00:21:19   but damn, that's what I think.

00:21:20   - And it's some good points to take off from there.

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00:24:04   on it the last time I looked at it and I just like rubbed it with my thumb and it came right

00:24:09   off. I don't know what it was. Really, really great. The interior features a patent-pending

00:24:13   compression system helpful for over packers. They've got just the right number of compartments

00:24:17   inside. You don't have to like read instructions to figure out what's what, but there's like

00:24:20   an area for your shirts and then you put a thing on top of it, hold it shut and then

00:24:25   your shirts won't get wrinkled. Nothing else will touch them. They have a little bag in

00:24:29   there that you can put your dirty clothes in to keep them separate from the clean clothes

00:24:33   for 360 degree spinner wheels, a TSA approved combination lock and, and here's the kicker

00:24:42   the carry-ons that carry on in the larger carry-ons have a built-in charger with two

00:24:49   USB ports. So you're at any seat at the airport while you're waiting for your flight, you've

00:24:54   got a charger right there available to you with your suitcase right by you. So you don't

00:24:58   have to hunt around the airport for like the two seats that have like a USB socket or a

00:25:03   wall socket nearby. I cannot tell you how convenient that is. Really, really great.

00:25:09   I just love that feature. And again, there's 100 day free trial and they have free shipping

00:25:14   on any away order within the contiguous 48 US 48 states. So there you go. It's a great

00:25:22   product. I really love it. You can get $20 off a suitcase if you visit away, travel.com/talk

00:25:28   show and use that promo talk show during checkout. So not only is it a great product, not only

00:25:34   right now, today is it literally still in time for the holidays, but you'll save 20

00:25:38   If you use that promo code talk show and go to away travel comm slash talk show my thanks to away

00:25:45   I

00:25:49   Really like that product anyway

00:25:51   I'm a pro love letter to developers and then

00:25:56   The developers who pipe up and say well, it's not for me

00:25:59   Yeah, I feel like I'm not in love. Okay, I feel like

00:26:07   It's an interesting contrast to Apple's

00:26:10   current laptop market

00:26:13   Which is there is no way to make one computer that makes everybody happy

00:26:18   Because if somebody would somebody really wants and I don't know what specific complaints you heard from people who don't

00:26:25   Want a pro machine from hardware?

00:26:28   Aren't complaining about the price per se realized that that the pricing of the iMac Pro is in line with what it's actually offering

00:26:36   But simply don't like it. The thing I've heard already is and and it shouldn't be a surprise

00:26:42   I don't even think this was news this week

00:26:44   but I think now that it officially shipped they're willing to bark about it is the lack of internal expandability and

00:26:51   You you can't even upgrade the RAM

00:26:54   As a user there's no little screw panel that you can unscrew and add more RAM or change the RAM

00:27:01   Although you can if you buy one that's not like max out on RAM

00:27:05   You can take it to us like a service center or an Apple store and get it upgraded, you know

00:27:11   as like a

00:27:13   official service thing with Apple so it's not like you

00:27:15   Literally, it's not like that RAM is soldered onto the motherboard like it is on some laptops

00:27:21   But it's just not user accessible

00:27:24   that's the complaint I've heard about but

00:27:28   It's like that's that's the iMac. You know what I mean? It's it's

00:27:32   There's no way to have everything and so the difference I see it's like it's like blaming a platypus for having a bill

00:27:38   You know, yeah bills and and I realized that the new Mac Pro is not yet shipping and they're not even suggesting when it might be

00:27:45   And as usual for Apple even off the record they had you know, I asked and they had no comment

00:27:52   We're here to talk about a iMac Pro today. I

00:27:56   Knew that that was gonna be the answer, you know any hint any hand. Yeah, I don't want to quote you

00:28:00   I'm not gonna say just like a hint as to like maybe what quarter

00:28:03   It's coming and the answer was we're here today to talk about rhyme with flan. You are

00:28:09   I

00:28:11   So I have no inside juice on when the new Mac Pro might ship no little birdies

00:28:17   No hint it it literally could be February or it could be next December or it

00:28:24   They might even be worried that it won't ship in 2018. I honestly don't know it could be imminent it could be

00:28:31   Far off. I don't know my guess though is that it is not imminent. My guess would be that the

00:28:38   Best case scenario. This is a pure guess it would be

00:28:42   Something parallel to last year where they announced the iMac Pro at WWDC and shipped at the end of the year

00:28:49   We're maybe by WWDC. They'll be willing to show it and say what it does

00:28:54   and give a later this year estimate but I don't think it's coming anytime soon

00:29:00   and I don't I definitely don't think it's shipping in the first half of the

00:29:03   year because I don't think they would have rolled out the iMac pros the way

00:29:07   they did if it were but that's just I could be totally wrong on that and I'd

00:29:12   be happy to be wrong yeah I don't know anything further either obviously and I

00:29:17   don't I can't really disagree with you I think that sounds reasonable I don't get

00:29:23   the feeling that it is like right around the corner or anything like that either. I think

00:29:27   they're they're giving this thing some breathing room. You know, in terms of announcing it

00:29:32   and letting it fly and all that. They obviously wanted it out. They promised it out this year.

00:29:37   They wanted it out this year and they got it out this year. The iMac Pro. But as far

00:29:42   as like, you know, how much that matters for their like holiday quarter, any of that, I

00:29:47   really don't think that they're counting on it mattering a ton. No, I don't. They just

00:29:51   wanted to get it out and so it's out. That's why we have this late December kind of, "Hey, it's out."

00:29:56   You know, and here's the sweet spot, you know, 10 core. You can get that now. Yeah, most people,

00:30:02   that's great. And then for science or, you know, ML or other specialists, the higher core options

00:30:09   will be shipping in January. Yeah, and so I think the interesting contrast with their laptop line,

00:30:14   though, is that even not knowing the specifics of the new Mac Pro or knowing other than that

00:30:20   they're working on it and that they took that truly unusual step of talking to us about it

00:30:25   last April and saying, you know, you know, talking about having gotten backed into a thermal corner

00:30:32   with the trashcan Mac Pro design and saying, look, we hit we're hitting a reset button,

00:30:36   but we're committed to the pro market. We're coming out with a new pro machine. We're coming

00:30:40   out with a new pro standalone display for the pro machine. But we, you know, it's in the future.

00:30:47   And we also have a pro config iMac also in the works that will come out sooner. But I think it's

00:30:53   interesting to date. It's two different things. You've got the iMac Pro for the people who,

00:30:59   the pros who are perfectly fine with the sealed box, limited, you know, you've got some options

00:31:09   up front to buy and then once you buy it, that's it. And pretty much whatever you do to quote,

00:31:13   expand it is going to be through Thunderbolt 3 or USB. And on the other side for the pros

00:31:22   who really want configurability inside the box is this upcoming Mac Pro. And I think

00:31:29   that's interesting to compare with the laptops where the complaints to put the keyboard aside,

00:31:35   which I think is to me the biggest complaint about the new Mac MacBook Pros. But the other

00:31:41   complaints like hey I don't need a thinner machine I'll take a thicker

00:31:44   machine and keep a bunch of USB ports and keep the SD card slot and etc etc

00:31:51   that they've really only that they're pro laptops right now really only fit

00:31:56   the side of the pro laptop market that doesn't want expandability that doesn't

00:32:02   want a whole bunch of ports that doesn't would take a thicker case to have a

00:32:07   bigger battery. Like there's room, like I feel like the problem with the MacBook Pro lineup is

00:32:14   that I really feel like there should be two types of MacBook Pro like the MacBook Pro that is as

00:32:19   thin and sleek as possible and the MacBook Pro that is physically bulkier like you know not fat

00:32:25   but let's just say sort of like the 2013-2014 era MacBook Pros but still has a bunch of old school

00:32:34   USB 3 ports in addition to USB C ports, etc

00:32:37   Mm-hmm. Yeah sort of the you know as powerful as you can get it and still be portable right version

00:32:45   Yes, exactly like the as close as you can get to a portable workstation

00:32:49   Mm-hmm

00:32:52   So I feel like that's basically arguing for like an like an iMac Pro portable, right?

00:32:59   Like, you know, the MacBook Pro should be like, "Hey, we have the MacBook Pro and, you

00:33:07   know, it'll get you where you need to go, iMac style, where you can configure it pretty

00:33:12   powerful."

00:33:13   But then we have this other MacBook Pro Pro that can really, you know, maximize your battery

00:33:21   life and, you know, you can configure it with massive, massively powerful processors and

00:33:27   all that.

00:33:28   But anyway, you know, I'm at pros, obviously,

00:33:30   what we wanna talk about this week,

00:33:32   and I really do feel,

00:33:34   if there's anything I wanna convey

00:33:36   to the listeners of the show,

00:33:37   or the readers of my site,

00:33:39   is that if you're just trying to get your head wrapped

00:33:42   around the basic story,

00:33:43   is do not be fooled by the external appearance

00:33:48   of the machine,

00:33:49   and think that it's an iMac

00:33:53   with a darker, cooler-looking anodization

00:33:57   and slightly speed bumped CPUs and components.

00:34:01   Like inside, it is truly a completely different architecture.

00:34:06   It's really a different computer.

00:34:11   I mean, and Apple in the briefing really spoke about it

00:34:13   as though it was a different line.

00:34:15   It's called iMac, but it's really in their minds

00:34:19   a completely different line of computer from the iMac.

00:34:25   - Yeah, and they said that the kind of like,

00:34:30   impression that you get was that they were designing this

00:34:34   as an entirely new machine and that they wanted

00:34:37   to make it as powerful as possible.

00:34:39   And the only constraint that they had, I guess,

00:34:42   in some ways was like, hey, that display,

00:34:45   we just came out with it, it's brand new, we love it,

00:34:48   everything's fine with that, we have no problem with it,

00:34:51   so we're gonna use the same casing and display.

00:34:54   And then everything else from then on is like,

00:34:56   okay, so how do we make this the absolute most powerful,

00:35:00   ridiculous iMac ever?

00:35:03   And then go from there.

00:35:04   And honestly, just speaking from this perspective

00:35:08   of somebody who keeps a PC for gaming and VR,

00:35:11   and it sits right next to my Mac,

00:35:12   like I have a 4K monitor hooked to my PC

00:35:15   that sits on my desk, and a tower, a PC tower under my desk,

00:35:19   and then an iMac next to it for most of my daily work,

00:35:23   I can tell you that it has been years

00:35:28   since the Mac competed on any real level

00:35:31   with what I could buy off the shelf graphics-wise

00:35:36   on a PC.

00:35:37   And now you can argue about price

00:35:40   or specific capability or whatever,

00:35:43   but right now the iMac Pro is something that you could buy

00:35:47   uncomfortably expect to game at top-level graphics settings and use for VR and that's a

00:35:54   Massive like it's new for in many years. It has not been the case

00:35:59   yeah, and it really is a jump from all the way from I

00:36:05   absolutely can't even

00:36:08   It can't even use a Mac it's not like you can limp along like you just you couldn't even do

00:36:16   the like oculus or HTC vive VR with a Mac any Mac right to

00:36:24   and I tried it I did and I mean I did it very early and it was

00:36:27   terrible right to you couldn't really it was unusual to these

00:36:30   machines being not just credible but very very good machines to

00:36:35   drive these experiences well specifically the HTC vive right

00:36:40   now I don't think oculus works with it it's not just that all

00:36:43   All the demos that we saw this week were on the HTC Vive.

00:36:48   And I think it goes through, they all go through the Steam Vive VR thingamajig that I don't

00:36:55   really know much about.

00:36:57   But it's...

00:36:58   Yeah, yeah, they will, the Mac, just to fill in the gap, the Mac got official Vive support

00:37:06   via Steam as of WWDC.

00:37:10   And I think they shipped it, and I can't remember

00:37:12   whether they shipped it in beta or full version at WWDC,

00:37:14   but basically, they were, as of Dub-Dub,

00:37:17   you were able to launch Steam, get your update,

00:37:21   plug in your Vive to your Mac, and start using it for VR.

00:37:25   That is, of course, theoretically,

00:37:27   because the top tier VR applications

00:37:31   really didn't run super well on most iMacs.

00:37:36   And even the modern, if you'd bought an iMac this year,

00:37:40   you know, with the best capabilities, stuff. But he was definitely not going to give you

00:37:48   what we would consider a top tier VR experience. But obviously, they were planning because

00:37:54   they knew this was coming out. So

00:38:00   it really was and I'll just say this, you know, you're you know, one of the reasons

00:38:03   I really wanted to have you on the show this week was that you know more about VR than

00:38:08   anybody I know. And so, you know, and I, I don't have to say I know the least, but I

00:38:14   know little. And so I want to, I want you there to double check my impressions of the

00:38:20   VR stuff that I saw this week, you know, demoed. Another thing, I didn't really mention it.

00:38:28   I wish I had in my write up yesterday, but after all, most of the demos that we had,

00:38:33   it was sort of like you'd walk around, you know, we were in smaller groups broken up

00:38:36   and it was like little demo stations throughout Apple's building. And we'd go see the demo

00:38:41   from this company for 15, 20 minutes and then time's up. We'll go round robin, we'll

00:38:47   rotate to the next group. And after most of them, especially the ones that I thought were

00:38:51   the most technically impressive, I'd walk behind the machine and put my hand to see

00:38:56   if I could hear the fan, if I could feel, did it feel like the machine was red hot or

00:39:00   anything like that. And in none of the cases, even the ones after where we were like the

00:39:06   third or fourth group to go through the demo on the same setup. It never felt hot. I never

00:39:11   heard the fan. I'm not saying the fan wasn't blowing. I'm just saying that if there was

00:39:17   something going on to push heat out, it wasn't noisy and it definitely wasn't hot. In fact,

00:39:23   today I even tried it. Now I've still got the 2014, the original 5K iMac is still my

00:39:28   desktop machine here. I put my hand where the fan is on my iMac and it was hotter and

00:39:34   I'm not even doing anything. I mean, I've just got, you know, a bunch of Safari tabs

00:39:38   open and mail and it's just running. And it is silent. My iMac is…

00:39:42   I have a common promo, so you can cook an egg on it.

00:39:45   Right. My iMac is silent. It's not making any noise. But I put my hand back there and

00:39:50   it was warmer than the iMac Pro in the demos on Wednesday. So the thermal stuff that they're

00:39:58   doing is incredible given that it's got this high-end performance.

00:40:02   Yeah, I have the same Mac. Well, I mean, you know, if it's the exact same configuration,

00:40:06   but late 2014 retina 5k, and it's the i7. And that it definitely, you know, yeah, it

00:40:13   gets hot, it gets warm. I mean, I can feel the heat coming off of it. Because it's kind

00:40:17   of next to a wall. So it vectors out and I can feel the heat coming from behind us sometimes.

00:40:22   Yeah. And I do think that this ties into I for anybody out there who's frustrated that

00:40:29   this machine isn't more configurable isn't user configurable that you're why am I going

00:40:34   to spend $12,000 which you can easily do you can easily configure one of these things to

00:40:39   run 10 11 $12,000 why am I going to spend $11,000 on on a workstation that I can't change

00:40:45   the graphics card in or whatever I think the way that they got this thermal performance

00:40:53   where it stays quiet and cool is that by limiting it to these two graphics cards for CPU options,

00:41:02   that they figured out exactly what the thermal aspects of these specific components are and

00:41:08   designed a system just for them. I feel like the close nature of the system, the remarkably

00:41:15   small size that it really just looks like a monitor with a bulge on the back, it's no

00:41:20   bigger physically than a regular iMac, it goes hand in hand with the limited configurability.

00:41:26   Yes, it's sort of like custom built is the wrong word, but sort of bespoke hardware in a way.

00:41:37   Yeah.

00:41:37   Where it's like, "Hey, look, if you need to accomplish these tasks, here's the minimum

00:41:41   amount of hardware space and the maximum amount of power we can give you to get this thing done."

00:41:48   And it really, you know, now that it is Visa mountable, because you can remove the foot

00:41:52   now, which you didn't used to be able to do, you had to order it from the factory that

00:41:55   way.

00:41:56   You know, people will be mounting these things everywhere and they'll have like an incredibly

00:41:59   powerful workstation in the size of a monitor.

00:42:02   And I think that that is overlooked by a lot of people who want maximum modularity, which

00:42:07   once again I understand.

00:42:09   But a lot of people don't want modularity.

00:42:11   And I think that a certain audience of people underestimates how many professional users

00:42:16   there are that don't give a crap about modularity and just want the maximum amount of power

00:42:22   with the least fuss possible.

00:42:24   Like no cables besides power, right?

00:42:28   No messing around with towers and where do I mount this and where do I mount that and

00:42:32   all of this.

00:42:33   And the applications for that are very, very widespread.

00:42:38   One of the ones that we saw in the demos was medical application for instance, right?

00:42:44   These guys were taking CT scan slices and then turning them into a model in near real

00:42:51   time essentially.

00:42:52   And then a surgeon can look at that 3D model and rotate it and say, "Look, here's a vascular

00:42:57   system from this CT scan."

00:43:00   Which, these things were possible, for sure.

00:43:02   They've been possible for a long time.

00:43:04   So it's not like, "Oh, this is brand new."

00:43:06   But the real time nature of it, how quick it is for them to dump a folder full of CT

00:43:12   into this program and then pop open a 3D model seconds later

00:43:16   and then rotate that model in real time in high res.

00:43:19   That kind of thing mounted to a wall in a briefing room

00:43:23   or in an office where they can instantly show a patient

00:43:26   what they're talking about to try and give them

00:43:28   better understanding and alleviate some anxiety

00:43:30   or to give them better knowledge going into a surgery.

00:43:34   At that point, those thousands of dollars that people say,

00:43:39   oh, you got to spend x, y and z on this on this computer and

00:43:43   blah, blah, blah. That's nothing. That's nothing. CT

00:43:46   machines are in the 10s of millions of dollars. Well, you

00:43:50   know, and what do you think this is an accessory, right? You

00:43:53   know, and we this company is called Osiris OSI, r i x, with

00:43:59   the capital X. And they've been around they said they're a Swiss

00:44:03   company, I believe. They've been around for 14 years and they're

00:44:06   Mac only, or really Apple only because they have an iOS app

00:44:10   too. But they're, to me, they're all I've never heard of them

00:44:12   before, because I'm not a medical professional. But to me,

00:44:14   they're like the poster children for like, the type of

00:44:17   developers Apple loves to talk about where their app looks like

00:44:22   a real Mac app. And it totally it's all modernized for, you

00:44:26   know, the Sierra High Sierra look. And you know, if you've

00:44:31   ever been if you've ever like me, I cannot help it. I look at

00:44:34   at the user interface of everything, right?

00:44:37   And I think about the user interface

00:44:39   of everything I ever see.

00:44:41   And whenever I'm in like a doctor's office

00:44:44   or the dentist's office or whatever,

00:44:46   and I look, it's usually always these janky Windows apps

00:44:50   that are just horribly designed

00:44:53   and look like they were, probably were in fact designed

00:44:56   for like Windows XP in 2001 and it just still running now.

00:45:01   Like their app looks like a real Mac app,

00:45:03   like the type of thing that a consumer,

00:45:08   if it was, you had a consumer,

00:45:09   that would be like a consumer app

00:45:11   that would look great on the front page of the app store.

00:45:14   But they mentioned it.

00:45:16   So they've been around for 14 years,

00:45:17   or they've been shipping for 14 years.

00:45:18   So obviously, the thing that they do,

00:45:22   they were running 14 years ago,

00:45:24   obviously on far less powerful hardware.

00:45:27   But that the big difference between what they could do now

00:45:31   on the iMac Pro and where they've been before

00:45:33   is that it's gone from like a 2D experience

00:45:36   where you're like, let's say somebody has a knee injury

00:45:39   and you're like a orthopedic surgeon

00:45:41   and you're looking at these CT scans.

00:45:43   Instead of like going between a bunch of still images

00:45:47   at different depths of the knee in three dimensions,

00:45:50   it now can be like a 3D viewing experience

00:45:53   where you're kind of moving the camera,

00:45:56   for lack of a better word,

00:45:58   through the knee in three dimensions.

00:46:00   And you could just see the enthusiasm of the developers.

00:46:04   They were like, yeah, we were blown away.

00:46:05   We never really thought, we never thought

00:46:07   when we started this app over a decade ago

00:46:09   that it would be a 3D viewer for this stuff.

00:46:12   And like you said-- - Right, they said

00:46:13   their initial version was literally just an image viewer.

00:46:15   You know, it's just like, hey, look, here's a JPEG

00:46:18   that you can look at.

00:46:19   - Right, and it's exactly like you said

00:46:22   that in terms of, well, geez, that must be nice

00:46:27   to run on a $10,000 iMac.

00:46:29   But for the cost of the medical equipment

00:46:32   that's in like a radiologist's lab,

00:46:34   the $10,000 iMac is nothing, right?

00:46:39   - Mm-hmm, right.

00:46:41   Yeah, and so like just so people don't at me,

00:46:45   I looked up the cost of a CT machine.

00:46:47   'Cause I was like, wait a minute,

00:46:49   how much did that actually cost?

00:46:49   'Cause I remember them costing this much a while back,

00:46:52   'cause I have my wife's in the medical field,

00:46:55   the medical industry, and has been for a long time,

00:46:57   15 years.

00:46:59   But so right now at 360 slice, which is sort of like high end CT scanner will cost you

00:47:04   like two and a half to $3 million.

00:47:06   So let's call it through a $3 million round it up.

00:47:10   If an iMac Pro with this piece of software on it, which is like $700 a seat for the software

00:47:17   and then like $4,000 for the iMac Pro, like a bit of $5,000 for the base model, like 10

00:47:23   core or whatever it is or you know, something like that.

00:47:25   Let's call it five to $7,000.

00:47:27   This is literally an upsell accessory that they throw in.

00:47:30   You know what I mean?

00:47:31   - Right.

00:47:32   - Like they're like, "Oh yeah, and we'll get you a full 3D view of it within seconds with

00:47:36   our proprietary software or whatever, white-labeled software or this software package and this

00:47:42   iMac mounted to the side of it like with zip ties or whatever."

00:47:45   You know what I mean?

00:47:47   That comes with, so to speak.

00:47:49   And I think that people lose perspective on that because a lot of the people that are

00:47:52   very vocal about it, which I understand are enthusiasts or independent developers where

00:48:00   the budget very much matters to them.

00:48:03   And I get it.

00:48:04   And this may not be the machine for them.

00:48:06   They may want to maximize something where they can make a large investment up front

00:48:09   and then smaller investments over time upgrading it as parts or modules can be upgraded, which

00:48:15   is 100% valid complaint or not even complaint, but just statement to make, like philosophy

00:48:20   to have a bunch of competing purchases. But in many cases, like this will, you know, the

00:48:27   iMac Pro will do some jobs for such a long time that they amortized out and it is an

00:48:35   incredibly negligible expense. And I think that there's a lot of people that this will do a lot

00:48:40   of good work for over time.

00:48:41   Yeah. And I thought it was also interesting. I mean, again, you know, in addition to showing

00:48:44   off the iMac Pro, the developers who were invited were part of the quid pro quo of,

00:48:51   "Okay, you're going to give Apple your time to travel to New York and to spend the time

00:48:55   to rehearse and put these things together as they can brag about and promote their products."

00:49:02   And these guys mentioned that in 2016 they had 35% growth. And again, this is a 14-year-old

00:49:08   app and that this year 2017 they're on pace for 45% growth you know which is to

00:49:15   me super impressive for a 14 year old app that it still is obviously rapidly

00:49:21   growing in the market I mean 45% growth in a for a 14 year old app is incredible

00:49:26   but I really think it shows that it's paid off for these guys to commit

00:49:30   themselves to the Mac as a platform mm-hmm yep and I think that there's a

00:49:37   A segment of people, and I think that some of them are represented, of course.

00:49:44   No surprise in these groups of people that we're demoing, that Apple had brought in and

00:49:50   say, "Hey, these people are building really cool Mac apps that will benefit from the iMac

00:49:55   Pro's increased power."

00:49:56   Very, very evidently, they will benefit very quickly.

00:50:01   But then you'll have a long tail of people where you have market segments that are, you

00:50:07   have been served by PCs, and I don't think Apple's blind

00:50:11   to the fact that if they were to introduce something

00:50:14   like the iMac Pro, that it might in fact take some

00:50:18   of that market as well.

00:50:19   In other words, they're not just eating the market

00:50:21   of people who are buying high-end iMacs,

00:50:24   they are also going after certain segments of the market

00:50:27   where they can fill gaps.

00:50:29   GravitySketch, which is one of the other apps

00:50:31   that was demoed there, I had spoken to these folks

00:50:34   previously, I'd spoken to the co-founder a while back and he was there demoing the apps

00:50:40   and he comes from an automotive background and that background basically was in the design

00:50:52   and modeling phase of automotive.

00:50:58   The issue that they have with that industry is that if they want to appeal to these people

00:51:12   with their virtual reality 3D sketch and modeling application for the automotive industry and

00:51:18   and other industries that are looking to design

00:51:20   straight into 3D.

00:51:22   Their issue for a long time had been,

00:51:24   hey, we've got these people, these designers,

00:51:26   who are working on Macs through the whole process.

00:51:29   Like designers love Macs, everybody knows this.

00:51:31   So you've got an automotive guy who's working on Mac

00:51:34   through his whole process.

00:51:37   And then, you know, gets to this point in the process

00:51:42   where they want to try this GravitySketch thing,

00:51:46   which is in VR, and they have to switch to a PC

00:51:49   because this program runs on PC

00:51:52   and it needs the power of a high-end graphics card

00:51:56   and a high-end CPU to really get them flowing

00:51:59   and sketching in 3D and all of this

00:52:02   to eliminate a lot of cost in the clay modeling segment

00:52:07   of car development.

00:52:09   So if you don't know anything about car development,

00:52:11   essentially they go through a bunch of design phases,

00:52:13   including sketching, but in between each of those,

00:52:15   they typically do a clay model.

00:52:17   So they'll do like a sketch and then a clay model

00:52:19   and then CAD and then a clay model

00:52:21   and then aerodynamics and then a clay model

00:52:24   and you know, so on and so forth.

00:52:25   And so one car can have like a dozen clay models

00:52:28   made of it at one point or another

00:52:29   and those are expensive and time consuming.

00:52:32   And so they're trying to like supplant a lot of that

00:52:34   where you could kind of go into GravitySketch,

00:52:37   really model it out as you would in a clay model

00:52:40   and then dump that into an environment

00:52:41   where you can get precise like CAD or something like that.

00:52:44   So they are very much a sketch application

00:52:47   that takes the place of a lot of physical modeling

00:52:50   that would normally take place in the process

00:52:52   of creating a new vehicle.

00:52:55   But in the case of selling into a company

00:52:59   that you already use as a bunch of Macs,

00:53:01   they would have to go like, oh, and you have to get PCs

00:53:04   to use here.

00:53:04   So instead, they've got this now.

00:53:06   - I thought their enthusiasm as,

00:53:09   look, we know that the people in our target audience

00:53:12   are long-time Mac users

00:53:14   'cause they're creative professionals

00:53:15   and they love their Macs and we like Macs,

00:53:18   their enthusiasm for getting this running on the Mac

00:53:21   to integrate for exactly the reasons you said,

00:53:23   I thought was palpable.

00:53:24   And it's the sort of thing that you could say,

00:53:27   well, of course they were pro-Macintosh

00:53:29   'cause they were at an Apple-hosted briefing,

00:53:31   but it really doesn't work like that.

00:53:32   Like it was, I thought it was legit

00:53:35   and it makes sense for the reasons you said.

00:53:38   Yeah, I got to play with Gravity Sketch Wednesday.

00:53:41   You insisted that I try all the VR stuff.

00:53:44   - Yeah, I found, I was like, so you know, wait.

00:53:48   I wanna know, 'cause at the time you said,

00:53:50   oh, you hadn't tried it much.

00:53:52   So what experience had you had in VR

00:53:54   before you put the headset on for the first time

00:53:57   at that Gravity Sketch demo?

00:53:58   - I had, I forgot about the one,

00:54:00   which is actually the one

00:54:01   I've probably spent the most time in.

00:54:04   So a year or so ago, I got a backstage tour

00:54:09   at MLB in New York, the people who make the At Bad app.

00:54:14   Actually, Disney's bought a majority stake

00:54:21   or bought all of their media thing.

00:54:23   - Yeah, they were part of, yeah, MLB AM,

00:54:27   which is Advanced Media, I don't know what they're called

00:54:29   now, but yeah, they spun out.

00:54:31   They're their own company now.

00:54:31   They have some of the best iOS developers in the world

00:54:33   in my opinion.

00:54:34   - And they also have some of the best streaming video

00:54:37   technology in the world. Because if you remember, if you go back a few years, when HBO first

00:54:43   started trying to stream their stuff, it would fall apart every time a new episode of Game

00:54:48   of Thrones came out. And when they hit the reset button and redid it, what they really

00:54:54   did was outsource it all to MLB's media. And the fact that everybody can watch the

00:54:59   Fail Whale isn't a thing for Game of Thrones streaming episodes anymore. It's all because

00:55:04   it's on the MLB backend. But anyway, I was there, took a tour, and one of their developers

00:55:09   was working on a VR thing. I think it was like simulated view in a ballpark type thing.

00:55:17   So I tried that for like five minutes. I forget what hardware it was, but it wasn't great.

00:55:21   I think it was like a first gen Oculus or something, like a developer kit. I bought

00:55:27   the thing when I bought the Pixel 1 over a year ago. I bought the headset that Google

00:55:32   cells with it. It's like a 60. It's not like the cardboard box thing. It's a step above

00:55:36   that, but it's pretty much just put your pixel in this felt visor and I don't know, spend

00:55:43   an hour or two playing around with it. And the last thing, which I forgot when we were

00:55:50   talking Wednesday, is that my son Jonas has the PlayStation VR and I haven't really played

00:55:55   it. I'm not a gamer, but I was interested enough in it as a technology where I was like,

00:56:01   "Well, give me this thing, I gotta see what this is like."

00:56:04   So I've used PlayStation VR.

00:56:06   That's my experience going into this.

00:56:07   - And so, so far, and just this is like a setup, right?

00:56:11   So, so far up until this point,

00:56:13   your experience with it have largely been,

00:56:15   okay, early, rough, then the mobile, portable, right?

00:56:20   Which definitely have a lot of downsides still, right?

00:56:24   They've come so far,

00:56:24   but still very much not a top-of-the-line experience.

00:56:28   And then the PlayStation VR,

00:56:29   which is actually pretty damn good,

00:56:31   but it's a purely single viewpoint camera-based experience.

00:56:36   So it's got these colored markers, these lights on it,

00:56:38   and the camera sees those markers,

00:56:39   and that's how it tracks your head movements and all that.

00:56:42   So then, going into this experience with the Vive,

00:56:46   which you did a couple at this event,

00:56:48   you've got what they call lighthouses,

00:56:50   which are infrared sensing cameras that are mounted,

00:56:54   kind of up and at angles,

00:56:55   and so they can see all sides of the headset

00:56:58   and the controllers.

00:56:59   So you've got hands and head in the world being tracked.

00:57:03   So it's like kind of another level of VR.

00:57:05   So how did your gravity sketch thing go?

00:57:07   - It was pretty good.

00:57:10   I certainly am not susceptible to motion sickness.

00:57:15   Never have been really, like on boats and roller coasters

00:57:18   and stuff like that, or I never really gotten car sick.

00:57:21   And like 3D movie, I don't like watching 3D motion pictures

00:57:26   'cause I find cognitively I've bitched about it.

00:57:29   And I think there's something to it.

00:57:30   There's a lot of people, there's research that's shown it

00:57:32   that it's, I can't follow the plot, but I don't get sick.

00:57:36   So I didn't find it bothersome.

00:57:37   I thought it was pretty neat.

00:57:38   And with Gravity Sketch in particular,

00:57:40   I could totally see right away that describing it

00:57:45   as less like sketching and more like sculpting

00:57:47   was totally true.

00:57:49   Like it's very hard to explain and put into words

00:57:53   and to make you believe it.

00:57:55   Because at the same time that one person can have the VR headset on and get the actual

00:58:02   VR experience, they were simulcasting it to like a big 60-inch TV so that everybody else

00:58:08   in the room could see what the person was seeing.

00:58:12   But when you see it on a 2D TV, it doesn't really look any different than any 3D app

00:58:17   that you've seen for 25 years.

00:58:21   If you've seen any 3D modeling app, you're like, "Oh, okay."

00:58:24   But when you have it on and you know, you can just move your head around

00:58:28   You know, it is very different and it absolutely comes across more like sculpting than than drawing

00:58:36   It is you know, even while just making one

00:58:40   You know putting one thing into the model, you know, it feels it totally feels 3d at all times

00:58:50   Right, and you know, he was he was talking about how people adopt it quickly and stuff

00:58:54   And I think some people laugh because they know you know, like hey VR there is an adoption curve, which is true

00:58:59   You know, it takes some time to get used to the controllers and all of that

00:59:02   But I mean honestly the controllers are a big barrier because they're fairly clunky now

00:59:07   Almost all of them are the oculus ones are probably the best

00:59:09   The more ergonomic

00:59:14   But all of the controllers are pretty subpar until we get full hand tracking

00:59:17   we're not you know we're not going to be seeing the true potential but I will say

00:59:21   that like I put my dad into a VR headset and he'd been never been in one before

00:59:25   and I put him into a headset with the controllers and a copy of Google's sketch

00:59:34   well it's I think tilt it's called tilt brush right so it's it's like a

00:59:40   sketching and painting app with far less precision it's really about expressive

00:59:45   of painting and things like that.

00:59:47   But it's quite cool, very, very rich complex stuff with it.

00:59:51   And he picked it up like that.

00:59:54   And within minutes he had produced a piece of artwork

00:59:57   in there that I was like, how do I save this?

00:59:58   I'm like, I can't even save this.

01:00:00   And it's because it translates incredibly well

01:00:04   to people that have a great handle on spatial relationships,

01:00:08   like designers, you know, the designer industrialists

01:00:11   especially and architects and things like that.

01:00:13   They have just in their head, they've got these frameworks

01:00:18   that allow them to imagine

01:00:20   and understand spatial relationships.

01:00:22   And so to them, being able to sketch in 3D

01:00:25   is not necessarily, it's not,

01:00:28   it's not a barrier to them, it's a release, right?

01:00:34   And I think a lot of people assume like,

01:00:36   "Oh, they're gonna have to get used

01:00:37   to this new way of doing it."

01:00:39   And they're like, "No, finally,

01:00:40   Like I've been, you know, I've been tied by pencil and paper or by 2D plane this whole

01:00:46   time and all I wanted to do was sketch in 3D, you know?

01:00:50   All my sketching up to this point has just been trying to get in 3D.

01:00:53   That's what I think VR does is it unlocks these new experiences and new ways of doing

01:00:58   things.

01:00:59   It's certainly no surprise that 30 years ago and prior that all automobile design was done

01:01:06   in clay, you know, with actual sculpture. But it's also no surprise to me, even though

01:01:13   I'm not a 3D artist or a sculptor, but it's no surprise to me that that stayed through

01:01:18   to now long after the CAD revolution, where the CAD schematics for the design of a car

01:01:26   can be projected in 3D on a two-dimensional screen and you can, you know, use your mouse

01:01:33   or trackpad or whatever to pan it around as a wireframe

01:01:38   or to use shading to make it look, you know,

01:01:41   there's all the ways that you can make 3D

01:01:45   look on a 2D screen.

01:01:47   But I could totally see though for the creative aspect of it

01:01:52   that doing it in VR is,

01:01:54   it really is to three dimensional thinking

01:01:58   what the original CAD revolution was to two dimensional

01:02:02   where you really are moving from paper and pencil

01:02:04   on a sheet of graph paper to doing it on a computer,

01:02:08   that VR is really the first time you're doing it in 3D.

01:02:11   Like the 3D that you can get on a 2D screen

01:02:14   doesn't really scratch that itch.

01:02:15   - Yep, makes sense.

01:02:19   And I really do feel that there's not much,

01:02:23   there's not much you can say to somebody

01:02:27   who has never tried it that will express appropriately

01:02:31   the transportation or sense of place

01:02:36   that being in a real 3D environment

01:02:42   bounded by 3D can give you.

01:02:45   And that's, I think, one of the things

01:02:46   that has honestly hurt VR a lot in terms of adoption.

01:02:50   I think there are several large technology hurdles

01:02:53   that are the main cause of it not really going wide yet,

01:02:57   and those will need to be overcome.

01:02:59   But I think that that sense of you have to see it

01:03:02   to understand is a real barrier to adoption.

01:03:06   'Cause it's impossible to tell somebody,

01:03:08   no, like you're really, it is really 3D.

01:03:11   And they're like, yeah, yeah, I've seen 3D shit.

01:03:13   You're like, no, not quite, it's more than that.

01:03:17   It's something more.

01:03:18   And I think that people that are,

01:03:20   or designers who have been really, really wanting

01:03:23   this kind of thing in their workflow,

01:03:25   when they see it, they get it,

01:03:27   and they adopt it right away.

01:03:28   It'll take longer for the world at large but the people that have been really hankering for this

01:03:32   Have really wanted this and now they have a Mac that can actually push it which is amazing because then they can go to that

01:03:37   Same Mac and launch into their other workflows. I know I'm guilty of it

01:03:41   I think anybody who's adept at computers and the the earlier back in

01:03:46   Interface that you're adept at a computer like if especially if you're as so adept that you're comfortable at the command line

01:03:53   It's easy to overlook

01:03:58   uh, just how freeing it is every time the industry levels up and removes a conceptual

01:04:09   layer of abstraction. And a good example, a really good example is to me, like the way

01:04:17   that, uh, folks on the Asperger's syndrome, especially including ones who are really,

01:04:24   you know, really severely affected by it. And that kids who have so much trouble communicating

01:04:33   really fly on an iPad and just do amazing things and expressing themselves and learning.

01:04:43   And you think like, well, why, you know, and it's really because that that layer of abstraction

01:04:48   of moving a mouse pointer around with a secondary controller, it's easy to think like, ah, touching

01:05:00   a button with your finger and touching a trackpad to move an arrow on screen to get the button

01:05:05   and clicking the trackpad. It's effectively the same thing. One's just direct and one's

01:05:09   a layer of indirection. But that layer of indirection is truly profound for some people.

01:05:15   And then for people who aren't affected by like, something like Asperger's or any other

01:05:20   disability, it, you know, like my dad, my dad is so much better and more effective and

01:05:27   communicates and, and I messaged me so much more like from his iPad than, than a Mac.

01:05:34   And it's just because it, you know, it, it less to think you don't have to think it through,

01:05:40   It just happens.

01:05:41   And that layer of abstraction is totally there for 3D,

01:05:46   where if you just want to get a slightly different angle,

01:05:48   like the model, like when I was using the gravity sketch,

01:05:51   there was a car model, and then there was also like a sneaker.

01:05:56   And if you just want to get like a slightly different view

01:05:59   on the sneaker, the fact that you just move your head

01:06:02   the same way that you would get a slightly different view

01:06:04   on a sneaker in real life, and that the,

01:06:06   the field of view is exactly the same as looking at a sneaker in real life is it it's it's just

01:06:20   totally different than if I had to do something click a button or rotate a wheel or move my

01:06:25   fingers on a trackpad to rotate the view like the fact that I'm rotating the view the way

01:06:29   I always do with everything else in the world by just moving my head is

01:06:32   It's just incredible

01:06:36   Mm-hmm, like there's absolutely and that yeah that deletion of abstraction as you mentioned is a huge like

01:06:45   It's a huge help. It's a huge assist to people that that have issues already

01:06:51   But it is a massively forward to for people who who knew what they wanted it

01:06:56   and just have never been able to get it.

01:06:58   - Right.

01:06:59   All right, let me take a break here

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01:11:12   So one of the other companies that demoed the iMac Pro, and again, it was VR was a company I

01:11:21   had never heard of. But when I came home and talked to Jonas about it, he was like, Oh, yeah,

01:11:25   they make a great VR game. A company called SurVios. S-U-R-V-I-O-S. I don't know what

01:11:34   the name of their VR game that they previously had was, but they demoed for us.

01:11:39   Jared Ranerelle It was Hard Data.

01:11:40   Dave Asprey Hard Data, okay.

01:11:41   Jared Ranerelle Yeah, it's their biggest hit so far.

01:11:43   Dave Asprey Well, Jonas was very impressed that I met the founder. They had a new app.

01:11:51   I hesitate to even...

01:11:52   Jared Ranerelle Sorry, Raw Data.

01:11:54   It's raw data. Raw data is the name of the game. Sorry, go ahead.

01:12:00   Hard data is like the Chinese ripoff version of it.

01:12:03   Yeah.

01:12:03   Electronauts is their new app, and I'm going to call it an app, not a game. And I think it's

01:12:14   primarily about the creation of music. But it has the feel of a game. It's sort of like, I would say,

01:12:22   two-thirds, three-fourths music creation being a DJ and a one-third game sort of

01:12:31   like Guitar Hero. But part of it is that the basic premise was that you don't

01:12:38   have to be a musician to do it and that you can't make anything sound bad. So

01:12:43   like in a way that like me, an idiot who doesn't know how to play a guitar, if I

01:12:47   just pick up a guitar and try to do anything, it literally sounds like

01:12:50   Someone who doesn't know how to play a guitar just picking strings on a guitar

01:12:54   Whereas you get into this game no matter what you bang

01:12:57   So you you put the goggles on and you got two joysticks you calm joysticks. What do you call those things?

01:13:03   The controllers there's two. Yes. Yeah. Yeah the two the vibe controllers. There's like one for each hand. Yeah

01:13:10   and then that puts like you said before that puts your hands in the

01:13:17   field of vision of you and as you move your hands you see them in real time in the VR world and

01:13:22   You've got the equivalent of like two drumsticks and you can use it to bang on these things to make tones that go along with

01:13:28   This background music that's going but then you also use the sticks to poke at the controls

01:13:34   It's sort of like you're standing in front of a

01:13:38   Three-way desk like there's a front part

01:13:41   That's the main thing

01:13:42   You turn to your right and there's things to select over there and you turn to your left and there's things to select over there

01:13:48   in the meantime the entire world around you is moving like you're on like

01:13:53   The best way I could describe it is you're like imagine like you're on a train and the Tron movie

01:13:58   right, it's

01:14:01   You know, it's like you're in the Tron universe and it's you're constantly moving at high speed on a train

01:14:08   Which sort of gives you that guitar hero feel and then if somebody else is playing with you

01:14:12   You can do it to two people at the same time

01:14:14   You can turn to your side and see the other person at it at the same type of

01:14:18   DJ workstation area over to your side and you can toss these sound grenades at each other that

01:14:25   You know make other types of noise to go along with the music

01:14:30   super impressive a very very impressive technically

01:14:36   But I found it fascinating from a user interface perspective because they really were serious that you know, like real DJs

01:14:42   This is something they envision that real DJs could use to put you know

01:14:45   Play and customize music perform live in front of you know, like a club or a party type atmosphere

01:14:51   And that seems totally credible to me

01:14:54   But it was really interesting as a user interface perspective because it it's a it's a pro creation app

01:15:02   Like you're creating music and the only interface to it is VR

01:15:06   There is absolutely no way that you that this thing would work on a two-dimensional screen without VR. I

01:15:12   You know, yeah, I

01:15:15   Mean they're there they've done a couple of things that are really cool with it

01:15:21   I mean I jumped in because I definitely wanted to try it out. I'm a fan of Serbia's

01:15:25   I've been following them for years

01:15:26   I saw

01:15:27   One of their extremely early prototypes very very early on when they were still doing a lot of hardware

01:15:32   They've since pivoted or whatever you want to call it to doing mostly software's because the hardware stuff kind of shook out like Oh

01:15:39   Oculus and vibe, you know, those kind of took the took the lead and so they're like, okay, that's fine. That's not our strength

01:15:43   Anyway, we're gonna go with XY. So they've been making software and some some of the best software for the platforms, but

01:15:49   I

01:15:51   Really like their stuff

01:15:52   I think they have a good handle on what makes VR special,

01:15:55   how they've been really pounding the pavement

01:15:58   in terms of trying to get,

01:16:00   trying to figure out what the best locomotion models are,

01:16:04   what the best kind of interaction models are,

01:16:06   that sort of thing.

01:16:07   'Cause I think a lot of people don't realize that about VR

01:16:09   is that nobody really knows what the hell's going on.

01:16:12   Like even the people that are making the best stuff

01:16:14   for the platform, and that's also why it's so exciting.

01:16:17   Right, it's not done, right?

01:16:19   Like the best way to use a mouse and a pointer,

01:16:21   That's done, it's it, right?

01:16:24   Like then you go touch, like what's the best way

01:16:26   to use touch?

01:16:27   It's not completely done, but there's a lot of that

01:16:29   that's done, right?

01:16:30   Like people know how to use touch and how to tell people

01:16:35   how to use touch when they're building applications

01:16:37   and that sort of thing.

01:16:38   But VR is very, very open field.

01:16:41   There's a lot of people running a lot of different

01:16:43   directions on this.

01:16:44   And some people out there are doing some really,

01:16:46   really good work to say like, oh, this is how.

01:16:49   We think that this is the best way.

01:16:51   and then you'll see a lot of people sort of funnel into that

01:16:53   and then some other people go,

01:16:54   "Oh no, how about this way?"

01:16:56   But Serbius has been doing this for a while

01:16:59   and I think it shows in the precision,

01:17:02   but the good feel of their interactions,

01:17:05   how you grab different instruments,

01:17:06   how you interact with the instruments.

01:17:08   - And they do have a bit of haptic feedback

01:17:10   like when you pick something up with the stick,

01:17:13   there's just a slight amount of haptic feedback

01:17:16   and a little visual feedback where now it's glowing

01:17:19   so you know you've got it.

01:17:21   Right. And it's a little tick like just so you would feel like, oh, I'm picking up something

01:17:25   light but I know I have it in my hands kind of thing. And you know, all of those things

01:17:29   will get better over time. But they had a pretty good, you know, pretty good base set

01:17:34   of stuff in there. Right. What would actually when you go to like start pounding on stuff,

01:17:37   right? Like it's, it's sort of a, what would it feel like to pick up a, a, a zero weight

01:17:44   electrical thing? You know what I mean? Like if you know, like in the Harry, you know,

01:17:48   Harry Potter type universe, like somebody with a wand

01:17:52   creates something that's not real,

01:17:55   what would it feel like to pick it up?

01:17:56   That's exactly the sort of haptic feedback you get.

01:17:59   They're not simulating weight,

01:18:02   but it's just enough of a tick to,

01:18:05   you feel like you've got this thing that doesn't weigh--

01:18:07   - Yeah, it's that confirmation and feedback loop

01:18:10   that you need to make your mind say,

01:18:14   I have accomplished this task of grabbing this thing,

01:18:17   or picking this thing.

01:18:19   But then the second thing that they've done,

01:18:21   and this is sort of like the underlying technology

01:18:24   behind this app, is that they have created this system

01:18:29   for synchronizing and sort of up-resing

01:18:34   your musical abilities.

01:18:39   So I don't have very good innate rhythm.

01:18:42   I used to actually sequence, do some MIDI sequencing

01:18:44   way back in the day with like Tracker on the PC

01:18:46   like in the 90s and do a little bit of DJing

01:18:49   and stuff like that, but I am terrible with instruments.

01:18:53   So I can't really, I'm not very good at holding a beat.

01:18:56   I can blow away Guitar Hero,

01:18:59   but don't ask me to play a real guitar, right?

01:19:01   But my dad is a musician.

01:19:02   He's very good and he can play all kinds

01:19:04   of different instruments and all this stuff.

01:19:05   I did not inherit it at all.

01:19:07   So going into this, I was the perfect person to try this

01:19:11   'cause it's like I love music

01:19:13   and I know how I want it to sound,

01:19:14   but I can never really get it to sound that way.

01:19:17   And so when you bang on these instruments

01:19:20   and we use these tools that they have in there

01:19:22   to create music, their special sauce is this sort of layer

01:19:27   that takes your inputs and melds them with the beat

01:19:31   and tempo and other instruments and other things

01:19:34   that are going on in the song already

01:19:36   and slides them just a few milliseconds one way or the other

01:19:40   and slots them in so that they sound beautiful.

01:19:42   So it doesn't matter how discordant you try to make it,

01:19:45   like you can just bang indiscriminately on the things,

01:19:47   it sounds like you're really trying to make music

01:19:49   and that you just made something really cool.

01:19:52   That's kind of their special sauce to go with

01:19:54   along with the visuals and the other stuff that they've done

01:19:57   is to create this sort of, I hesitate to use the word

01:20:00   'cause it's so loaded,

01:20:02   but it's like an auto-tune for instruments.

01:20:04   So that you can sort of go like,

01:20:07   bing, bang, boom, a bang, bang, boom,

01:20:08   and it's like, boom, like slides it into the beat

01:20:11   and it sounds like it was meant to be there.

01:20:12   - Yeah. - And this works

01:20:14   with all kinds of different tempos and music and stuff.

01:20:16   - Yeah, that's exactly what I mean about it

01:20:17   being at least one third of the way to being more of a game

01:20:21   because it does feel like if you're not good enough,

01:20:24   and like me, I literally have no musical ability at all.

01:20:28   There's nothing related to music that I can do.

01:20:30   I can't carry a tune, I can't sing,

01:20:32   I can't keep to the beat.

01:20:34   And even I couldn't make it sound bad.

01:20:37   Like I was trying at first to see

01:20:38   if I could make it sound good,

01:20:39   And then I tried to make it sound bad and even I couldn't do it, you know, so someone who can't do anything good

01:20:44   Trying to be bad still couldn't get it to be off and then it would you know, I could see how it'd be a lot

01:20:50   Of fun, you know

01:20:52   Yeah, oh yeah, yeah so you you like I mean it's like, you know, hey

01:20:59   I'm transported to this weird platform traveling through this through space right making music, you know

01:21:06   And that kind of allowing somebody or I guess at its base level it's empowerment.

01:21:13   And people who are in the VR scene talk about empowerment a lot because that's sort of what

01:21:17   VR does is it empowers you to do things that you can't do.

01:21:22   Whether that's transport yourself to another world or fly or be a really cool cyborg or

01:21:29   be a musician or whatever.

01:21:32   It has that feeling of transporting you and empowering you.

01:21:35   And so that's what they're going after.

01:21:37   I think that, you know, obviously I only had a few minutes, I thought it was really cool.

01:21:41   But they're working with a lot of like professional DJs and people who are big names and are well

01:21:47   respected and are masters of their craft.

01:21:50   And they said that what they do have is a setting that allows them to turn off all of

01:21:56   the help and just allow those guys to create music.

01:22:00   So that's where the music creation thing comes in.

01:22:02   There's a bunch of visual music creation tools that are in there right down to a tracker

01:22:07   where you can tweak your beats like just one to the left or to the right or any of that.

01:22:12   Like it actually pops up what looks like to most people like a sheet of music but is essentially

01:22:17   a MIDI tracker where you could like say okay I'm gonna trigger this sound at this point

01:22:21   and this sound at that point.

01:22:23   That's built in.

01:22:24   So if you want to get granular you can.

01:22:27   Want to turn off essentially the auto aim or auto assist.

01:22:31   You can.

01:22:32   And so whatever sound you make happens right when you want to make it and how you want

01:22:35   to make it.

01:22:36   And so obviously for music pros or people who are musicians, this is a creation tool

01:22:41   that is visual and physical and performance-based.

01:22:46   So you could perform for somebody in VR, other people could watch you in VR, or hell, even

01:22:52   in the physical world, but see the VR representation of you projected on the screen or something.

01:22:57   And I could definitely see this being something that people use in concerts and in groups.

01:23:02   group settings and things like that,

01:23:04   versus a lot of VR, which has sort of an isolation

01:23:07   aspect to it.

01:23:09   But I thought that was cool,

01:23:10   that you could turn off the help,

01:23:11   and a real musician can go in there and make real music.

01:23:14   And yet, somebody who's really bad at it,

01:23:17   like you or I, can go in there and still have a lot of fun

01:23:20   creating something that sounds cool,

01:23:22   you know, and sounds great, and makes you feel empowered.

01:23:25   - Yeah, now they just announced it.

01:23:26   We got to see it a day before it was officially announced.

01:23:30   So it was officially in this Electronauts app.

01:23:32   It's coming in 2018, they say, so who knows how soon.

01:23:37   I mean, what we saw seemed pretty, you know,

01:23:40   I don't know how much else there is to do,

01:23:41   but it didn't seem to have,

01:23:42   the part that they showed us

01:23:43   didn't really have any rough edges,

01:23:44   so maybe it's coming soon.

01:23:46   And to tie this back to the iMac Pro,

01:23:49   it literally cannot run on any other Mac hardware.

01:23:53   There's no other Mac that is capable of running this.

01:23:56   And the iMac Pro is so good at running it

01:23:58   that while it is cross-platform

01:24:01   and it'll ship for other computing systems,

01:24:03   the iMac Pro is gonna be like their recommended system

01:24:07   for the app when it comes out.

01:24:08   - Which is, it's a massive turnaround

01:24:13   from just a couple of years ago with VR.

01:24:15   - Yeah, I--

01:24:16   - Or heck, even earlier this year.

01:24:18   - Like, it really does seem like the takeaway for me

01:24:21   is that Apple has really jumped from nowhere in VR,

01:24:25   completely irrelevant,

01:24:26   to completely relevant and credible

01:24:29   and yeah, this is a good way to do it.

01:24:31   This is a good machine to drive it,

01:24:34   I guess would be a way to say it.

01:24:36   And again, the machines--

01:24:37   - Right, and it really puts them,

01:24:39   it puts them in the game, you know, it really does.

01:24:42   And I think that that was part of their effort

01:24:45   on this part is to get them in that game.

01:24:47   'Cause nobody really knows how this is gonna pan out,

01:24:51   but almost everybody thinks that VR will have some position

01:24:55   in the computing platforms of the future.

01:24:57   And if that is true, then you need to have skin

01:25:00   in that game.

01:25:01   - Yep, and things I noticed is that even with the state

01:25:04   of the art right now, you still see pixels

01:25:08   in the VR display, like the, you know,

01:25:11   just the limits of driving these things,

01:25:15   it's like you don't get the VR equivalent of retina yet.

01:25:19   Right?

01:25:20   So, you know, there's still massive improvements

01:25:23   resolution to come. I mean, these are the we were talking about this together Wednesday,

01:25:28   but things that have to happen to get this to get VR better. Resolution has to improve dramatically,

01:25:35   it needs to get to retina where you don't see pixels. latency still needs to be improved. I

01:25:40   get the feeling talking to you that latency is way better than it was even just a handful of years

01:25:46   ago in terms of like when you pan your head how smooth is the visual translation and it

01:25:54   seems like that's a lot of what made people sick in the early days is that just the wee

01:25:58   bit of latency would just make your brain say I'm sick. But latency wasn't bad. I wouldn't

01:26:05   say it was bad in any of the demos we saw but it certainly wasn't photorealistic. It

01:26:10   wasn't real world realistic. And again not in terms of does everything look like it's

01:26:15   a real world, like I'm completely fooled into thinking I'm in a real world, but just

01:26:20   the speed of the latency is just not there compared to what I see when I move my head

01:26:24   around this office that I'm in right now. And it needs to be. And it will get there

01:26:29   eventually. And then the third thing is it has to be wireless. And right now to get these

01:26:35   experiences you've got to have the headset hooked up with a wire. And there's just

01:26:38   no way that that's, you know, it has to get wireless.

01:26:44   Yep, I think that encapsulates most of the major, I mean the technical underlying technical

01:26:49   issues that will enable those things are a different discussion. But I think that encapsulates

01:26:54   kind of where we need to be, right? It needs to be high res, it needs to be wireless, it

01:26:57   needs to have zero latency. And I think there are a handful of other things that go alongside

01:27:02   that, that it needs to be, you know, it needs to be lighter and user more user friendly.

01:27:08   It is a little heavy. It is a little, you know, I can I can see how it's heavy enough

01:27:12   that if I were a designer working on sneakers

01:27:17   or working on a car, that the weight of it

01:27:20   would definitely be a limiting factor

01:27:23   in how long a design session could be.

01:27:26   Like it's gonna get tiresome after 45 minutes, an hour.

01:27:30   - Yeah, and I have spent like five or six, seven hours

01:27:36   in VR at once, like in a stretch.

01:27:40   And it does.

01:27:41   It's honestly the larger portion of it,

01:27:44   the weight you get used to in a lot of the headsets,

01:27:47   especially the one that you used there was a Vive,

01:27:50   this is sort of like a V2 version of it,

01:27:53   which has like the rear head strap

01:27:57   has like a nice tightening mechanism on it

01:27:59   that the first one didn't have.

01:28:00   So it sort of load balances across your head, you know?

01:28:03   There's still extra weight,

01:28:05   but the larger portion of it is the cable management,

01:28:06   to be honest.

01:28:07   Like, you know, seven hours in a headset,

01:28:09   you spend a lot of time kicking cables around.

01:28:13   I put a little carabiner on my cable,

01:28:14   then I clip it to the back of my belt,

01:28:16   like in the belt loop in the back,

01:28:18   so it sort of keeps it behind me like a tail.

01:28:20   But still, if you're moving around,

01:28:22   especially in an application where you're sketching in 3D

01:28:25   or moving around in circles, okay, bothersome.

01:28:28   And so you look at those and you go,

01:28:30   okay, for somebody who's gonna go to work

01:28:33   and get to their desk and be like,

01:28:35   okay, I'm gonna put my headset on and work today, right?

01:28:37   And then work until lunch,

01:28:38   that work after lunch until they quit in a headset.

01:28:41   Some things have to improve, obviously,

01:28:43   massively in that area.

01:28:45   - Yeah, yeah, and it doesn't mean that it's not useful now.

01:28:49   And it's definitely got years, many years,

01:28:51   probably ahead of it before it really gets there,

01:28:54   where there is like boom and explodes

01:28:56   and becomes a thing for the mass market.

01:29:01   But to me, it's just like every step of computers

01:29:07   has that time where it's like, okay, it's good enough to be

01:29:10   useful for some, but it's not going to be useful for tons of

01:29:14   people yet, you know, like, what did it take for PCs to be

01:29:17   something that most people would want in their house? Effectively,

01:29:20   it took the internet, because it turns out that the real killer

01:29:24   feature for personal computers that would make everybody want

01:29:27   to have one was communication. And in the days before the

01:29:32   internet, when either you couldn't communicate, you

01:29:34   couldn't use a computer as communication or you had to do so esoterically through, you

01:29:39   know, BBS systems and dial up modems and stuff like that. It just was no interest to people,

01:29:44   you know. And so you can you can say personal computers needed X, Y and Z before they'd

01:29:50   explode in the mid 90s and become this thing that every household had. But that didn't

01:29:56   mean that from, you know, the late 70s through the early 90s that there weren't millions

01:30:02   of us who were enthralled by them and found good uses of them and built careers on them.

01:30:07   I think VR is the same way where it's sort of like right now is like a late 80s era PC.

01:30:15   It's totally useful. There's people who are totally into it and either having tons of

01:30:19   fun with games or doing serious, serious work, but it's not. It's like late 80s away from

01:30:26   being relevant to most people.

01:30:30   - Yeah, and you could see, like looking at the experiences

01:30:34   of the things that happen right now,

01:30:35   you could sort of see yourself in the future

01:30:37   looking back and going, wow, we put that much effort

01:30:41   into doing that task.

01:30:43   - Right. - You know, it's like,

01:30:44   you know, you look back going, what did we do

01:30:47   to put numbers into a spreadsheet

01:30:48   and, you know, apply operators to them?

01:30:51   You know, the process of doing that,

01:30:54   in the late 80s was just, it was nearly insurmountable,

01:30:59   but you did it anyway, because it was still better

01:31:02   than doing it on paper.

01:31:03   - Right, exactly.

01:31:04   - But it was certainly a chore,

01:31:06   and I think that's how we'll look back at VR

01:31:08   in the current state, like wow, all those wires

01:31:10   and connected to a big old tower PC or Mac,

01:31:14   all of this stuff, just to get a 3D world running

01:31:17   in your face, because I could do that with my goggles now.

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01:34:04   I'll tell you what the other demo at that at the iMac event or there's a couple more

01:34:13   But the twin motion one really blew me away

01:34:15   Twin motion is like this. I guess it's for architects type thing

01:34:22   They call it a real-time visualization app

01:34:24   But it more or less like if you're an architect you can like take your CAD files

01:34:28   Put them into twin motion and it turns them into

01:34:31   Effectively like a video game world like but with really high resolution

01:34:39   They didn't demo it with VR did they at least when we were there, but I believe it does it does have a VR angle

01:34:45   But it like they had what they did for the demo is they had like the

01:34:50   architectural plans for an airport and they put them into 20 motion and

01:34:55   It it gives you this near photo realistic rendering of the airport

01:35:01   That you can move around in in 3d like a 3d shooter

01:35:05   but it you know it's so you're not waiting for individual stills to render you're just moving in real time and it

01:35:13   animates and it gives you and you can set the camera to different heights and

01:35:17   Obviously the one that would be interesting would be like the typical height of a pair of human eyes on

01:35:22   the pathway and you just get this sense of

01:35:26   What would it be like to be in this airport or to be dropped off outside this airport here? I am outside the airport

01:35:33   Sorry.

01:35:36   It's my son.

01:35:36   Hi, buddy.

01:35:41   How you doing?

01:35:43   Yeah.

01:35:45   Wow.

01:35:45   Sorry.

01:35:49   Be in the airport.

01:35:51   Yeah.

01:35:51   Apparently not a fan of an airport.

01:35:54   And it's got these you can set what season of the year it

01:35:59   is, what the weather is like.

01:36:00   Like, what's it going to look like when it's raining?

01:36:02   What's it gonna look like at noon when the sunshine is streaming in?

01:36:06   You know, what's it gonna look like at five o'clock in the winter when it the Sun is setting

01:36:11   Just amazing in terms of visualizing and as somebody who to me you show me the floor plans of a house

01:36:20   You know like a two-dimensional architectural drawing of the floor plans

01:36:23   It's like I can get a vague sense of what it would be like to be there

01:36:27   But I really it just does not my mind just does not extrapolate a two-dimensional drawing into well

01:36:33   What would it actually be like to be in this room? I don't get it like

01:36:38   Software like this would be phenomenal to me. Just absolutely

01:36:42   Game-changing as a just as a client or you know

01:36:46   You know if I was commissioning like a new office or buying a new house or something like that

01:36:51   To be able to actually see it before

01:36:53   You know

01:36:55   construction starts at this is unbelievable.

01:36:58   Yeah, I mean, the speed at which it worked was sort of the key is

01:37:05   like the it's it was definitely possible to do this before, but

01:37:10   definitely not at this speed. And I think it was just a

01:37:13   recurring theme. And a lot of the stuff that we saw was that

01:37:15   people were quoting things like this happens three, five x 10 x

01:37:19   faster than we could do it before. And it was definitely

01:37:23   repeated, and I think Renee mentioned this in his

01:37:25   write up, but it was definitely repeated over and

01:37:27   over that they were able to do things now in real

01:37:30   time. You know, that took them much longer. It took

01:37:33   a lot of cycles of either rendering or processing

01:37:36   back and forth to accomplish. So the ability to

01:37:40   take a client's model and drop it in and open it up

01:37:45   and show it to them in a walkthrough and then make

01:37:47   a tweak and show them the walkthrough again almost

01:37:50   immediately is, you know, that's the key, right?

01:37:53   That's what you want.

01:37:54   And you want to be able to have that power to do that.

01:37:57   And they were showing off the iMac Pro's ability to do it.

01:38:00   It runs an Unreal Engine.

01:38:02   It's nothing exotic, you know, on the technology front,

01:38:05   but it's a very clean, very usable tool

01:38:08   that allows you to, in real time,

01:38:10   take a client through various weather conditions

01:38:14   and even add and subtract features like trees and water

01:38:19   and that sort of thing, and for them to see the results

01:38:22   immediately, which is, you know, it's all about

01:38:24   that feedback thing.

01:38:25   And if you're in an agency setting or a design setting,

01:38:28   feedback loops are the killer.

01:38:30   Like that's what destroys your time and your turnaround

01:38:33   and all of that.

01:38:34   It's just, it's the ability to say, make a change

01:38:37   and see it immediately that is invaluable in that setting.

01:38:41   - Yeah, I have it in my notes here that it was literally

01:38:44   that the rendering speed is five times faster

01:38:47   than on the current high-end quad core i7 iMac.

01:38:51   And that's the difference between doing it in real time

01:38:54   at maximum quality or having to sort of stutter through it

01:38:59   at high quality or go through in real time

01:39:03   at a much lower visual quality.

01:39:05   And they do things, they had crazy things in the app too

01:39:07   where it was like you could paint trees.

01:39:10   You could just get like a paintbrush and in 3D.

01:39:13   So like if you had like the front of the airport,

01:39:16   It's like it was just grass and they were like,

01:39:18   well what if the client says,

01:39:19   why can't we fill that in with trees?

01:39:21   You just, you know, paint it in with trees

01:39:23   and then all of a sudden the trees are there.

01:39:25   So instead of like taking a note,

01:39:27   render the front with trees and scheduling another meeting

01:39:30   and having the client come back to see it again,

01:39:32   what does it look like with trees?

01:39:33   You know, you're doing it in 15, 20 seconds

01:39:37   in real time right there.

01:39:39   - Right.

01:39:42   And that short circuits that whole loop.

01:39:45   And I think that's, you know, it's money, right?

01:39:47   It's money.

01:39:48   You're paying your, paying people money to sit around

01:39:51   and wait for feedback, and you're, you know,

01:39:53   you're paying your executives to sit around

01:39:56   and wait for the work to be done and all of that.

01:39:58   And so it's, it really is a domino effect

01:40:02   on your effectiveness and therefore your budget.

01:40:04   - Yeah, that was really, that really was the recurring theme

01:40:06   of the demos, was doing things in real time

01:40:09   that previously either took a rendering stage

01:40:13   where you'd have to go get coffee or take a break to see it.

01:40:16   Or if you did it in real time,

01:40:19   doing it at a lower fidelity

01:40:21   and then still having to do a final render

01:40:23   to get the true fidelity version of it,

01:40:26   whether it was a visual thing

01:40:27   or like an audio thing with Logic Pro,

01:40:30   that was absolutely the recurring theme.

01:40:33   And I think it's just true for all creative people

01:40:38   that doing something in real time,

01:40:42   makes it feel like it's waiting on your talent as opposed to when you're not working in real

01:40:46   time and you feel like you're waiting on the computer.

01:40:48   Yeah. And I think that that that is underrated by anybody who doesn't doesn't do it on a

01:41:01   daily basis. So I think you'll get a lot of people who are commentating on the, you know,

01:41:11   value of that real time nature of things or the value of the loop being short circuited

01:41:20   or clipped or whatever. But I'll tell you, when you're doing creative work, and I used

01:41:25   to do obviously a lot of Photoshop work when I was doing photography, and I developed a

01:41:32   flow of getting your images imported into Lightroom, making broad adjustments, making

01:41:39   minor adjustments, bouncing out to Photoshop to make retouching and then back to Lightroom

01:41:45   and on through your process, you know, and then to export and so on and so forth. But

01:41:50   I'll tell you, when you get in your flow, being able to have things happen immediately,

01:41:55   it stops you from interrupting your flow. It really keeps you more productive. It keeps

01:41:59   you in that zone that you get into. And for like somebody who's doing video editing or

01:42:05   Doing you know audio especially things where the creative nature of the thing that you're working on

01:42:12   Really feeds into that flow it

01:42:15   It's a huge thing to be able to get that immediate response and feedback and not have to wait for it to do what you

01:42:22   Want it to do. It's it's pretty awesome. Yeah

01:42:25   I'm trying to think here the other demos we didn't talk about the cinema for d1 that would it was interesting

01:42:33   but that was sort of the

01:42:35   Just the most, look, this is a thing that is super computationally complex.

01:42:46   Well, it's hard to gauge the impact of, right? Because they took something that was literally the level of complexity that you'd find on a feature film,

01:42:54   and were adjusting the viewport and saying, "Look, this is happening!"

01:42:58   But until you see how long it used to take, like physically, it's hard.

01:43:02   It's hard, you know, it's hard.

01:43:03   And I've seen scenes that complex,

01:43:06   'cause I've done media visits at effects houses

01:43:10   and things like that, and people have shown me

01:43:13   literally the scenes that have gone into a blockbuster,

01:43:15   and like, "Hey, I'm moving this around and showing you

01:43:17   "I can change this bridge, the way this bridge explodes,"

01:43:20   or whatever the case.

01:43:21   And I get it, an extremely complex 3D scene

01:43:24   rendered with texture and lighting

01:43:29   that nearly matches one to one

01:43:31   what you're gonna see on the screen,

01:43:33   but being able to view that and show that

01:43:35   in near real time with just a couple of minutes

01:43:38   in between pretty good and fully rendered is crazy.

01:43:43   It's huge and they were stacking up external GPUs

01:43:47   to make that happen.

01:43:48   They said they could add or subtract

01:43:50   depending on the complexity of the scene.

01:43:53   But to me, I mean, that's cool.

01:43:55   It's just a little lower impact

01:43:56   unless you're in that industry.

01:43:58   Somebody in that industry would have been like,

01:44:00   "Holy shit."

01:44:00   but for us it's just like, oh, well, that's cool.

01:44:04   But I also believe that it truly will, in the end,

01:44:08   it'll improve or expand the ability and options

01:44:13   of artists in that industry, because as you and I both know,

01:44:19   the moment you expand computing capability,

01:44:22   people's desires and ambitions expand to fill app.

01:44:28   So once you're able to stack two or three or four

01:44:31   or five external GPUs onto these Thunderbolt ports

01:44:35   and access all that compute power

01:44:37   so to render these frames, people will go,

01:44:39   "Hey, my scenes can get two or three or four more times

01:44:42   "more complex and more detailed."

01:44:44   - It did seem like their role in the demo rotation

01:44:47   was to be that that was the one that used external GPUs

01:44:52   plugged in via Thunderbolt 3 and to show that,

01:44:55   hey, they had two of them or at least two boxes,

01:44:57   knows how many GPUs were in those boxes. But, you know, it was again, it was sort of hard

01:45:05   because they it almost was the one that I think would have most benefited from having

01:45:09   like some other Mac, either a, you know, the highest end Mac Pro or iMac, regular iMac

01:45:17   or something side by side to show just how much faster it was. But the guys from Cinema

01:45:24   D were very excited about the performance that they were getting. Another demo they had,

01:45:31   what else was there? There was Adobe Dimension, which is an app I'd never even heard of before,

01:45:34   because I'm sort of just out of that world. But very cool app. It's basically a 3D rendering for

01:45:43   regular graphic designers, where let's say the example that they had was the graphic design for

01:45:50   a bag of potato chips. So you're doing it as an Illustrator file in two dimensions that

01:45:56   shows what the bag of potato chips would look like coming off the printer as a two-dimensional

01:46:04   sheet of foil. And then you move it into dimension and all of a sudden it's a three-dimensional

01:46:11   bag of potato chips that's sealed up, has the crimp at the top, and you can apply different

01:46:16   lighting effects and get a truly photo-realistic rendering of what it would look like as a

01:46:22   real package. And that was the one I thought was pretty interesting that the Adobe's thing

01:46:30   is CPU bound, not GPU bound, although they did say that they were looking at moving some

01:46:36   of it to GPU. But that was one that the more cores you throw at it, the faster the renderings

01:46:42   would be.

01:46:44   Right. And I think they were emphasizing too that not every application would benefit from

01:46:52   more cores. And I think that this has been a constant debate as multi, as hyper-threading

01:46:57   and multi-core processors have gotten more common over the last decade. People often

01:47:02   judge performance very differently based on the kind of applications that they're throwing

01:47:07   at these things. And the more is not always better debate is like a prime example. This

01:47:13   This scenario is a prime example of that.

01:47:15   An 18-core processor may not actually be all that great

01:47:19   for somebody who's doing something that requires

01:47:21   a single thread at a high frequency.

01:47:24   In the case of a render pipeline, though,

01:47:26   when you can assign multiple tasks to different cores

01:47:30   and be intelligent about it, it can be very helpful

01:47:33   to have those additional cores.

01:47:34   - Yeah, Adobe's, the Adobe rep said that

01:47:37   their scale's linearly, so you really do,

01:47:40   every time you add a core, you get increased performance.

01:47:43   Thought it was pretty interesting.

01:47:45   And then the last demo, or I guess the other two

01:47:47   that were from Apple itself, and they had an Xcode demo,

01:47:50   or a developer demo, really, 'cause they emphasized

01:47:53   that they know that Macs are super popular with developers,

01:47:55   but they also know that developer, quote, unquote,

01:47:57   developer doesn't just mean people writing iOS

01:48:00   and Mac applications.

01:48:02   The statistic they quoted was that 60%

01:48:05   of all GitHub developer activity is done from a Mac,

01:48:09   that they worked with GitHub to get these stats.

01:48:12   And that means all sorts of stuff

01:48:14   that purely runs on the web and that sort of stuff.

01:48:18   So that's pretty incredible given the Mac's

01:48:20   overall market share that it's up to 60%

01:48:22   of all GitHub developer activity.

01:48:24   So what'd they demo?

01:48:26   They demoed three iOS simulators running at once,

01:48:29   which is not something that you could do before.

01:48:33   Like you'd only have like one iOS develop,

01:48:37   simulator running at a time.

01:48:38   What'd they have?

01:48:39   two iPhones and an iPad running all the same time on screen, running a bunch of automated

01:48:44   tests in the simulator to test the app. A couple of VMware, I think it was VMware they

01:48:52   were using, but VMware virtual machines, one of them running Linux that was like compiling

01:48:59   a bunch of software from scratch, like an Apache PHP sort of environment. Another VMware

01:49:08   instance running Windows 10 and they even joked that out you know when's the

01:49:13   last time you saw Apple running Windows in a product demo running Chrome which

01:49:19   is not known as a you know performance you know something that's light on the

01:49:25   CPU so running a bunch of automated automated client-side tests of a web app

01:49:32   in Chrome, in Windows, in a VM, while in a terminal window on the Mac itself, they were

01:49:40   using Brew to install like a ton of data script installing and compiling from scratch a ton

01:49:48   of software for the Mac itself.

01:49:51   Yeah, compiling a Linux install from source.

01:49:54   Right.

01:49:55   Essentially.

01:49:56   Yeah.

01:49:57   So, you know, all and all of that running at once. And again, I went behind the machine

01:50:03   while it was still running, put my hand there and there's no, you know, wasn't like a hair

01:50:06   dryer blowing out the back. So, you know, very impressive. And I really do think that

01:50:13   was a huge part of the message. You know, I think that's why one of the people who got,

01:50:17   you know, to go back to earlier in the show and who got seated with these things a week

01:50:20   in advance, why did David Hahnemeyer Hansen, you know, the create co creator of Rails and

01:50:27   Basecamp, not really like an iOS developer type person, but they gave one to him and

01:50:34   I think he's a very popular individual in that sort of open source web development world.

01:50:42   To say, "Yeah, this is a machine for us."

01:50:46   - Mm-hmm, yep, and I think that's the goal,

01:50:51   is they wanted to capture a spread

01:50:54   and to make sure that they didn't pigeonhole

01:50:59   the messaging or use, because there is an appetite,

01:51:04   a voracious appetite for a more powerful Mac

01:51:09   from a lot of different vectors, not just one.

01:51:14   And I think that's so important to remember for a lot of people, and it's definitely something

01:51:19   that Apple is cognizant of.

01:51:21   Frankly, people like the Mac, they like the software that runs on it, they like the environment,

01:51:26   they like the fact that people who build applications for it give a crap, unlike Windows.

01:51:31   Sorry, but it's true.

01:51:33   The Windows Developer System is anemic by comparison, whether you like Windows or not,

01:51:40   it's hard to argue that.

01:51:42   And they like all of those aspects of it.

01:51:44   What they don't like is it being underpowered in relation.

01:51:48   And honestly, the cost is one way to look at it.

01:51:52   And I think you could look at the cost and some people would say, "Oh, I could build

01:51:55   it cheaper."

01:51:56   But those people are fine giving up all of the finesse touches, the high security aspects

01:52:02   of the T2, the screen being the best on the market, et cetera, et cetera.

01:52:09   and they go like, oh well, raw power,

01:52:11   I can build it cheaper, whatever.

01:52:13   But the people that appreciate those details

01:52:16   and need or want them, people in the industries

01:52:20   where color correct screens matter a hell of a lot

01:52:24   and where screen real estate matters a heck of a lot,

01:52:27   those arenas want more power

01:52:31   and they are sick of it being underpowered.

01:52:34   So I think that they're addressing those aspects of it

01:52:37   pretty well with the iMac Pro.

01:52:39   - Yeah, and for, you know, there's certain,

01:52:41   it does all kind of flow together, you know,

01:52:44   in the Apple product ecosystem,

01:52:48   but where if you're editing

01:52:52   5K video with the, what's the extra color depth?

01:53:00   - The P3 color space?

01:53:01   - Yeah, the P3 color stuff.

01:53:03   And you're editing it in Final Cut Pro on an iMac,

01:53:06   and then you go and show it to somebody else

01:53:11   on an iPad Pro, it looks exactly the same.

01:53:15   There's no, you don't need to worry about that.

01:53:20   And somebody who's really trying to sweat the details

01:53:22   on the exact color grading that you're getting out of this

01:53:25   and applying to the source footage,

01:53:28   if somebody else is looking at it on an iPad Pro

01:53:33   or on their MacBook Pro or something like that,

01:53:36   it's going to look the same.

01:53:38   And that's just huge for a professional environment.

01:53:42   - Yep, exactly.

01:53:43   And people that aren't in that industry

01:53:46   are in those industries where you've got a high pressure

01:53:51   delivery time situation and you need your color correction

01:53:56   to show up perfectly on an iPad Pro

01:54:00   that you hand somebody for approval

01:54:02   as the same as it did on your 5K iMac screen,

01:54:05   and they're not gonna get it.

01:54:06   But the people that do get it, they're like, finally.

01:54:10   Finally I can do that.

01:54:11   - So the last thing I wanna talk about

01:54:15   was is the future of this.

01:54:17   And it's like I wrote in my piece,

01:54:20   well, these machines are clearly great,

01:54:23   and I think they're a solid value,

01:54:25   and they're super useful right now today.

01:54:27   But you could say the same thing in 2013

01:54:29   when the Trashcan Mac Pros shipped,

01:54:31   these are super impressive pieces of engineering. It's obvious that Apple put a lot of work and

01:54:37   thought into it, and then they never updated it. And, you know, for these things to really put

01:54:44   Apple back in the game as a company that provides truly world class workstation hardware for people,

01:54:50   you know, like across the board, developers, designers, 3d people, VR people, it's not enough

01:54:57   just to come out with one round of IMAX in December of 2017. And Apple's never going

01:55:04   to update them every three months like the way that the component PC industry, as soon

01:55:10   as new stuff comes out, you can just custom configured into a box and then just get it

01:55:15   there. It's not like they're going to update every three months, but they need to update

01:55:18   like at least roughly every year. And that never happened with the Mac Pro. And I think

01:55:25   The reasonable concern people would have is,

01:55:27   do you wanna make an investment in this platform?

01:55:29   Having to hope or trust, I guess,

01:55:35   that Apple is going to remain committed to it.

01:55:37   - Yep, and the pacing of the industries

01:55:43   that they're trying to target with this

01:55:45   definitely remains a concern and a big issue.

01:55:48   If you are looking at VR,

01:55:50   the machines that were running VR at top spec two years ago

01:55:54   who are not the same machines as today.

01:55:57   And you would see a significant degradation

01:55:59   in your ability to develop for those platforms

01:56:01   or run them as a consumer if you made a bet

01:56:05   on something that was not able to advance along with it.

01:56:08   So if they are planting a flag in the VR industry,

01:56:13   are they going to have that same position in two years

01:56:16   if the iMac Pro is not updated?

01:56:18   - Right, and I think, and the concern that people have,

01:56:22   and you know, I don't think it's unreasonable is that Apple let the Mac Pro languish,

01:56:29   maybe not because they completely lost interest in it, but like that they made some bad bets on

01:56:36   where things were going underestimated the importance of, you know, GPUs in 2013. I mean,

01:56:44   they more or less said this to us last April, you know, when we talked to Federighi and Schiller,

01:56:49   you know, Fedor E even said, you know, that they painted themselves into a thermal corner.

01:56:53   I believe that's a direct quote, but if not, it's super, super close.

01:56:56   So it wasn't like they completely lost interest. It was like they found themselves painted into

01:57:03   a corner. But the reasonable expectation that people can have is they're never going to let

01:57:06   that happen. Even if they make a mistake with the iPhone, it's too important to them and they

01:57:11   make too much money. They'll pay whatever it costs to correct the mistake year after year.

01:57:18   you know, and that the Mac being a less of a financial revenue generator for the company

01:57:26   means that you you're at the risk that that they're something else is going to take their

01:57:31   attention away from from these products. I think, you know, I feel like we have to wait and see,

01:57:37   but I feel like they're in a better spot and that the this these Mac iMac pros aren't going to find

01:57:44   themselves in that trap that the Mac Pro did because I feel like they're they're clearly

01:57:49   oriented towards the future that they are already very very strongly geared towards

01:57:57   GPU intensive computing. I really do feel like that's the case and I feel like what happened

01:58:04   they made a bad bet with the design of the Mac Pro in 2013. They're correcting it now and I feel

01:58:09   like whatever they're going to come up with is going to be built for the future and they'll have

01:58:13   that configurable box for pros that you can do what you want inside the box, built for

01:58:21   the future.

01:58:22   And I feel like we've never had an iMac Pro before because this is really the earliest

01:58:26   that they could do it, that they couldn't make a machine that you would think of as

01:58:29   an iMac in terms of form that would have the performance characteristics of a high-end

01:58:34   workstation until now.

01:58:36   Yeah, I mean, the talk about thermals was interesting because I think this has something

01:58:42   like 67 percent more cooling in it than the previous IMAX.

01:58:47   Yeah, I think that's exactly right.

01:58:49   They doubled the amount of fans on it, all of that jazz.

01:58:54   So they were very concerned about keeping it cool and keeping the performance high.

01:58:57   And yet, as you mentioned, even though they were really powering through stuff, it really

01:59:02   didn't seem like it was being taxed or getting all that hot or outgassing a ton of hot air

01:59:08   or anything.

01:59:09   So that to me, the amount of power that's in those machines, given the amount of heat

01:59:14   that's coming out of them right now, I think they built in a lot of overhead in the cooling.

01:59:19   So I think that given that we saw the stuff that was going on with those, all the applications

01:59:24   that were pushing those Macs, they weren't getting very hot.

01:59:27   The fans weren't going crazy.

01:59:29   I think that the current amount of power in them has some overhead as far as the thermals

01:59:34   go.

01:59:35   In other words, I think they learned their lesson a bit and have built in a little bit

01:59:37   of future proofing.

01:59:38   I think we're gonna see more power come out of this current

01:59:40   iMac casing before maybe they redesign the whole thing.

01:59:44   - Yeah, I do too.

01:59:45   And I do feel, you know, sometimes failure

01:59:50   is the best teacher, you know, and I feel like

01:59:52   they're not trying to sweep the 2013 Mac Pro under the rug.

01:59:57   It's like I really do feel like they've learned from it.

02:00:00   I really do feel like they're not just paying lip service

02:00:02   to yes, we love the professional market,

02:00:06   and we really do wanna build machines that make them happy,

02:00:09   I really do feel like they mean it,

02:00:12   and that this is the first tangible sign of that

02:00:16   in quite a long time.

02:00:18   - Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's easy to get disheartened

02:00:25   if you don't see your concerns being addressed

02:00:28   or you feel that a whole segment that you belong to

02:00:31   is being overlooked, so I think they're doing what they can

02:00:34   to sort of counter the messaging

02:00:37   and then also deliver some real applicable hardware

02:00:42   to a good segment of the market

02:00:44   that's been feeling like they've had to make do

02:00:46   with whatever they've got.

02:00:47   - Yeah, and I don't wanna get into

02:00:49   a systems architecture lesson

02:00:51   'cause I'm not fit to lecture it,

02:00:54   but it really is clear just at the high level

02:00:57   and what you hear from them that this is absolutely,

02:01:00   this is a lot like modern day Apple

02:01:02   is like a head to toe systems maker.

02:01:07   Like they're not, this iMac is not some kind of box

02:01:09   where there's a, oh we just took this CPU from Intel

02:01:13   and we took these graphic cards from Radeon

02:01:16   and RAM from whatever company and we just stick 'em all

02:01:20   in the back of a display and that's it.

02:01:22   Like this thing is in a lot of ways like an iOS device,

02:01:27   like an iPhone in terms of being all of these parts

02:01:30   are custom designed to fit together.

02:01:32   And the best example of it, I don't think you and I really

02:01:34   talked about it much.

02:01:35   I know you mentioned it.

02:01:36   But this T2 chip, the T1 is the system

02:01:41   on a chip in the MacBook Pros with the touch bar.

02:01:44   And the T2 chip is running on the iMac.

02:01:47   Now, the iMac doesn't have any kind of face ID or touch ID,

02:01:51   so there's no biometrics.

02:01:53   But it does have a secure enclave.

02:01:55   It is effectively an iOS, a little miniature iOS computer

02:01:59   running in there.

02:02:01   But the thing that was most interesting to me is the way that the t2

02:02:03   handles the

02:02:06   It's the it's the it's the flash controller for the SSD

02:02:12   So the controller that handles the reads and writes is no longer on the actual SSDs. It's on the t2 chip

02:02:19   Which among other things like the benefit of this is that it handles all the security

02:02:25   So all rights to the SSD all rights are encrypted

02:02:29   Whether you have out of the box out of the box

02:02:31   There's no way around it and and it's one of the ways that like when I wrote about it

02:02:35   Like this systems couldn't run a spinning hard disk, even if Apple wanted to there's no way internally

02:02:40   You can obviously plug one in by you know

02:02:44   USB or whatever

02:02:46   But internally it can't even run an H spinning hard disk. It's SSD only

02:02:51   They're encrypted out of the box whether you're using file vault or not and it

02:02:57   It doesn't use the CPU.

02:03:02   The T2 chip handles with a dedicated AES encryption/decryption chip, handles it so

02:03:09   that the encrypted/decrypted reads and writes are at 100% performance of the SSD.

02:03:16   They happen faster than the SSD can read or write, so you still get 100% performance even

02:03:22   though it's all encrypted.

02:03:23   Right.

02:03:24   with zero performance hit, which is up until this point,

02:03:28   you always had to say, look, I'm gonna turn on FileVault,

02:03:30   but I know I'm gonna take a little bit of a performance hit,

02:03:33   a performance overhead on my CPU in order to do this.

02:03:37   And most people were okay with that,

02:03:39   that are security minded,

02:03:40   but now you get it for quote, unquote, free.

02:03:43   - Right, it's sort of, honestly, to make an analogy,

02:03:46   it's like the convenience hit you take

02:03:48   by locking the doors to your house,

02:03:50   and you have to come up, and now when you go in your house,

02:03:53   you have to take a key out and put a key in a lock and twist it and then turn the doorknob.

02:03:57   Most people who I know accept that and lock their house when they leave, even though it

02:04:03   would be easier if you could just walk up. It's the equivalent of just being able to

02:04:08   walk. Your house is locked, but it authenticates who you are. You just walk up, turn the doorknob,

02:04:12   and go in. You get all the benefits and none of the hits. But that means if you took the

02:04:17   SSD modules out of the iMac, you couldn't read or write them once they're unpaired with

02:04:22   T2 chip. So the question I have, I wish I would have asked it, I don't know what the

02:04:25   answer is, is what's even the benefit of FileVault now as opposed to just putting a

02:04:29   firmware hard password on the iMac Pro itself? Because the reason why it's always

02:04:36   in luck, because I asked and you probably weren't listening. Oh, did you really?

02:04:40   Yeah, I did. Well, this is why I had you on the show. Actually, hold on, let me

02:04:47   me buy I think my notebooks right here so I asked that because I had the same

02:04:51   thought like okay well so everything's encrypted if you if somebody managed to

02:04:56   like grab your machine and take it apart you know the SSD will not function

02:05:01   separately from that t2 or whatever so if you if it was to get scrapped you

02:05:05   know or whatever the case may be couldn't read it so I asked what the

02:05:10   deal what is the deal with fireball is what I asked them and basically they

02:05:15   I said that it handled different cases because,

02:05:19   let's say for instance, you were to put the machine

02:05:21   at the target disk mode, FileVault would require

02:05:24   that you had your user password as well,

02:05:27   as the system being on and active.

02:05:30   Whereas if you were to put it in target disk mode,

02:05:33   the T2 would see that as a legitimate read request

02:05:36   or write request, and it would handle that interaction

02:05:40   'cause it's at the very base level of the system.

02:05:43   So you're getting encrypted read-writes from the T2, but the FileVault adds an additional

02:05:47   layer of security by injecting your user key into the encryption pipeline.

02:05:52   So you have an additional kind of layer of, "This is me, and I authorize this."

02:05:58   Whereas the T2 is not really involved with identity at all.

02:06:02   It's just saying this machine is secure from external read-write attempts, things like

02:06:06   that.

02:06:07   you are in the official pipeline of a read-write,

02:06:12   the T2 is gonna facilitate it.

02:06:14   It's gonna say, "Sure, no problem, absolutely."

02:06:17   But the FileVault is sort of an additional lock on that

02:06:20   that is like, "Hey, not just anybody that has access

02:06:23   "to this machine, but me specifically,

02:06:26   "I authorize this to be read and written to."

02:06:30   - All right, there we go.

02:06:31   Well, that sounds like a show to me.

02:06:34   That's exactly, I can't believe that my question

02:06:36   actually in your notebook. That's so great. Matthew Panzer, you thank you for

02:06:41   returning to the show. It was good to see you this week. Everybody can follow you

02:06:46   on Twitter at @Panzer, P-A-N-Z-E-R, and they can read your excellent work and the

02:06:54   work of your fine staff at techcrunch.com every day.

02:06:59   Yes sir, thank you. Hey, have a good weekend. May the force be with you.