The Talk Show

207: ‘Christmas Mitzvah’ With Merlin Mann


00:00:00   It's like if there's any appliance I don't want to turn into a social network or advertising

00:00:06   platform, it's communications like a phone.

00:00:10   Like I don't want to know if somebody's having time for it.

00:00:12   This is not part of the show because talking about Skype is like, it's like a college newspaper

00:00:17   columnist writing about writing a college newspaper.

00:00:20   Dude, you have to include this in the show because here's the problem.

00:00:25   It's like, everybody goes around with this,

00:00:28   Skype works fine until it doesn't.

00:00:30   It's mostly fine, it's annoying,

00:00:32   it's weird that it has ads in it.

00:00:35   It's strange that I've got, there's so much cruft,

00:00:37   I want like five buttons to click

00:00:41   to connect with the people that I talk to,

00:00:42   and I don't want anyone else to contact me.

00:00:44   - That's exactly what I want.

00:00:45   I want like somebody to build me a front end for Skype.

00:00:48   - Right, right, well it's a web app,

00:00:50   you can probably just put it together yourself,

00:00:51   you're just doing markdown.

00:00:53   just laugh because it's the podcast is it's like I'm half writer at during

00:00:58   fireball half podcaster on the talk show and on half of my business the

00:01:04   software just randomly changes under well I have to just I don't know you can

00:01:10   leave this out but like I so um Skype Skype the protocol is something

00:01:14   basically the as soon as RSS to serve audio began it became a thing the

00:01:21   question became, well, how do we record these with people who aren't in the room with us?

00:01:25   And in the earliest, I remember this being an issue when I was on frickin Mac break weekly.

00:01:29   It's like, ah, everybody hates Skype. But as of 2000, whatever, five, nobody had found

00:01:36   anything better than Skype. And the truth is, people are out there actively trying.

00:01:39   Yes, I know there are websites. Yes, I know there's all these other things. But if you

00:01:43   ever have to talk to somebody who's not a dear friend, there's a pretty good chance

00:01:46   you're going to have to use Skype for your job. And this is my quote unquote job. The

00:01:52   thing is though, like it is you've nailed it. It's like, yeah, I guess you could use

00:01:57   FaceTime, you could use stuff, but like this could just go away. And I don't know what

00:02:02   I would like the other half of my business. I'm, I'm so utterly professional and conservative

00:02:09   in my tool. Like you, you're so into making, you've got, you've got a movable type from

00:02:13   1977 you've got all you got your little fonts in there you know it's funny you

00:02:17   know you like to roll your eyes the end joke in episode 5 of season 2 of Stranger

00:02:22   Things they're using movable type oh I'm kidding I'm not that far in well it's

00:02:29   nice in 1984 so it would be tough you know I like that program but I got

00:02:35   issues with with the songs that they pick for things it's it's you know okay

00:02:40   so I had this thing happen a couple weeks ago I've talked about this on all

00:02:42   my shows. I'm very sorry if you've heard them. I'm just sorry in general if you've heard

00:02:45   my shows. But I had a thing happen where like one day I'm recording with Roderick, everything's

00:02:50   fine. The next day, I try to Skype with Dan and check this one out. Okay, so I can text

00:02:56   with anybody in Skype, multiple people in groups, everything is fine. I call them, it

00:03:01   doesn't ring on their end. They call me, it doesn't ring on my end. I'm trying, I am pissing

00:03:08   on every spark plug I can find I'm in the console like an animal. I'm trying to figure

00:03:13   out what is wrong. It just didn't work for two weeks and I just brought my laptop in

00:03:18   my MacBook adorable, which is not super fun, but it works. Try it again. Monday work fine.

00:03:25   Yay. That doesn't give me a feeling of hope that like a mystery me problem appeared and

00:03:31   then disappeared and I don't know why that that is the pain. That's not how computers

00:03:35   I should be I don't we just I forget we just had a problem could be a corrupted font. I don't know

00:03:41   It's always a corrupted

00:03:44   Seriously though does it give you the fear a little bit like you're a podcast big shot now like you you got to do this

00:03:51   For stuff sometimes you get you know one to two episodes a month out if you're having a good month you push out the program

00:03:56   It doesn't it kind of give you the fear it does you know I've looked you know, it's funny. It's like I do I

00:04:03   Don't know if this comes as a surprise to you, but I'm not really I'm not really one to

00:04:08   Keep good records

00:04:11   throughout the year

00:04:13   Mm-hmm, and I think traditionally in the modern and in

00:04:17   incarnation of this show I've averaged somewhere around 40 episodes a year, so

00:04:23   Ostensibly, it's weekly. It's never really been close. It's been around 40 nominally. We're not gonna be 30. This is episode

00:04:30   I think this is the 31st of 2017. I

00:04:33   I felt like things were, see, I don't know,

00:04:36   you're such a black box.

00:04:37   I don't know if you're at Disney.

00:04:38   I don't know what you're doing.

00:04:39   I noticed that sometimes, as everybody knows,

00:04:42   you get a little careless with your references

00:04:45   and I'll see some brackets that make it into the post.

00:04:49   And that's when everybody knows

00:04:49   you're probably on a lounge chair having a beverage.

00:04:52   (laughing)

00:04:53   You wouldn't do that on your Mac.

00:04:55   - No, I might, I might, I might,

00:04:56   but it's more likely to happen

00:04:58   while I'm doing it from the phone.

00:04:59   - If it doesn't harm your opsec, if you are,

00:05:02   you've probably talked about this before, but like as of today,

00:05:04   like you're somewhere remote,

00:05:06   you go to a Disney property with your family and you want to,

00:05:08   you want to post something about gene Munster. What do you,

00:05:10   what do you draft that in? How do you post that?

00:05:12   I'd usually just do it right in the movable type web app,

00:05:17   which I've sort of customized over the years.

00:05:19   On an iPhone. Wow.

00:05:22   And if it's longer and it used to be a problem in the earlier years of the

00:05:25   iPhone, where back in the days when,

00:05:29   when ram was tighter and remember you'd leave safari and you'd come back to safari and it

00:05:35   would just have to reload but yeah when it reloads when you've got a mostly edited post

00:05:41   in a text area field it makes you a little angry i i rarely type that doesn't happen

00:05:47   as you know the iphone is just sort of just sort of reached the point where it never happens

00:05:51   but if it's a little bit longer than that then i'll copy and paste everything and do

00:05:55   it in Vesper or the Notes app or something?

00:05:58   The most I type anything that I care about in the native app, I realize that I'm a lunatic.

00:06:06   But like if I'm texting somebody like with you and I message you, it's like, that's fine.

00:06:09   That's okay. Like that's going to be fine. But like almost everything I do, if it's something

00:06:13   I just need to capture really quickly, it starts in drafts. And then I have a little

00:06:18   script in drafts that will take the first line and add a date stamp to it and put it

00:06:22   in my text files folder and then I'll open it up usually in editorial and that's where

00:06:29   I do a lot of my jazz with markdown and stuff like that. But it's one reason the Twitter

00:06:34   character count thing isn't driving me completely crazy because I still write, I still draft

00:06:39   most things in a legitimate app that's got an actual character count in it.

00:06:42   Even your tweets?

00:06:43   Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. 100%. You can't get returns in the Twitter app.

00:06:50   use Twitter effort. Right. Okay. Yeah. Um, yeah, no,

00:06:55   I write it in drafts usually and then drafts is synced.

00:06:57   So it syncs with all the devices, but anyways, it's kind of boring,

00:07:00   but do you ever imagine Markdown would be this sturdy? No. Well,

00:07:03   it's a funny, it's, it's, it's funny because I was,

00:07:07   I really thought that I had something when it first came out, I really thought,

00:07:12   I was like, you know what, this is it. And, and bless his heart.

00:07:15   Aaron Swartz was a super excited too. And, and, uh,

00:07:20   And the history of that collaboration is sort of muddied because what I think I've talked

00:07:25   about this before. Do you want to go back? You want to go back to 2003?

00:07:29   I absolutely would. I mainly knew Aaron's contribution as the Python script that would

00:07:34   go backwards was how I mainly remember him being involved. But he was there from nearly

00:07:38   day one.

00:07:39   Right. He had

00:07:40   You know what I'm talking about? Like he had the dot pie that you made mark down HTML.

00:07:45   And I feel like he had something that would do

00:07:48   It would mark down and turn it or no take HTML and mark down a fight

00:07:52   So you could copy and paste like new source on a web page and it would ignore just skip all the garbage tags

00:07:57   and then just take tags like italics and

00:07:59   The the link yeah, just the the a H refs and turn them into real links

00:08:05   How far back so there was Dean Allen's textile right which was a markdown sort of thing but not that close

00:08:14   It was a little bit. So what was that preceded by set text? Yeah, that was there they were all there

00:08:20   You know there were a whole bunch of these little formats, but none of them

00:08:23   Really did the right thing none of them were really meant just specifically for turning it into HTML except textile was

00:08:29   But I didn't like it because I still had seemed to have a lot of good

00:08:33   Gibberish up front. Do you ever write tear off the thing that you used to write man pages?

00:08:38   It's no I mean only only when I was playing like with trying to learn it

00:08:43   I never used it for anything. The way that those things work is everything is preceded

00:08:48   by some kind of code. So there's like something at the beginning of every paragraph or line

00:08:53   to tell you what this line is. And it's tercer than writing raw HTML because that's the one

00:09:01   thing is when you're just writing raw HTML, it's just a lot of just a lot of the tags

00:09:07   are just it's just character. It's just character salad. There's so much stuff like the most

00:09:11   basic one is for writing legit HTML in the modern age, you need an opening and closing

00:09:16   paragraph tag, which I understand semantically why you need that. But that's really crufty.

00:09:21   Exactly. Right. Opening and closing is exactly it where you just you don't need it. So textile

00:09:26   got rid of a lot of that. And if you were just writing in a plain text editor and you

00:09:29   didn't have any kind of helper or WYSIWYG type thing, it would save you tons of characters

00:09:32   and your stuff was more readable. And a guy named Brad Choate, I'm not sure I've known

00:09:39   him for years and I don't know if he's chosen or Cho at but I think he's choked worked at

00:09:43   six apart and and helped make a much better textile plug-in for movable type and he had

00:09:49   some ideas for like improving it and he and Dean Allen you know Dean took those ideas

00:09:55   and then I typed in because I knew Dean and I knew Brad and I wrote to them with my ideas

00:09:59   and Dean and Dean everybody's got no steam wrote back and said these ideas are fantastic

00:10:08   fantastic but it's sort of like a different thing you should just go make

00:10:12   the thing

00:10:12   and I thought you know what you're probably right

00:10:16   I never a whole bunch of other formats I can't remember them all there's one

00:10:21   called restructured

00:10:22   text I think which well then there was also the abbreviated

00:10:26   are lowercase EST capital St

00:10:30   oh yeah do remember and also the the well it wasn't PHP BB but there was also

00:10:35   a pretty at the time a fairly common

00:10:38   Markdown ask markup language for using forums. Yeah, that was be widely adopted was very very it was in terrible

00:10:44   It was really bad. Aaron had one called ATX that never got any pickup at all

00:10:50   I don't know that anybody ever other than Aaron really used it

00:10:53   But he had a web page describing it and there are some good ideas in there and I stole from I stole from everybody

00:10:58   to make markdown

00:11:00   and

00:11:03   Basically, you know and the idea was because I think the first year and a half of during fireball

00:11:07   I was writing everything in raw HTML.

00:11:09   And then I started writing not so much in raw HTML,

00:11:13   but then I had scripts in BB Edit that would put the P tags in.

00:11:16   You know what I mean?

00:11:17   So I didn't have to have the P tags while I

00:11:18   was editing an article.

00:11:20   And then only at the very end, I'd put them in.

00:11:22   But then when I went to make a typo error, fix a typo,

00:11:25   at some point you have to go and once you convert to HTML,

00:11:27   it's stuck in HTML.

00:11:29   And I thought that stuck.

00:11:30   So I emailed a bunch of people.

00:11:32   And for folks who aren't familiar with this,

00:11:34   the sucky part is that I run into this with Squarespace,

00:11:36   which is a great service and I love it,

00:11:38   but like if I've done something to HTML,

00:11:40   I forget and I'll go in and I'll select something

00:11:44   and put two asterisks around it,

00:11:46   forgetting that that's not gonna get processed.

00:11:48   'Cause once it's inside of an HTML,

00:11:50   I'm using your words,

00:11:51   but once it's inside an HTML container,

00:11:53   it won't be processed as Markdown.

00:11:54   - So I emailed a bunch of people

00:11:55   who I thought might be interested.

00:11:57   Once I had like a basic,

00:11:59   basic does half the things Markdown

00:12:01   actually does version working

00:12:03   and my basic description of where I thought going.

00:12:06   And I emailed a bunch of people and everybody was,

00:12:09   I don't know how many people, maybe 10 people.

00:12:10   And everybody was very nice, you know,

00:12:12   like that looks cool.

00:12:13   But I could tell that was like, that looks cool,

00:12:15   but I'll just keep doing what I'm doing.

00:12:16   I don't get it.

00:12:17   Except Aaron, Aaron got it immediately.

00:12:19   And he was like, oh my God, this is brilliant.

00:12:21   And so he was like, just my,

00:12:25   he was my only active beta tester really.

00:12:27   And so like for like three, four months,

00:12:29   I just kept adding to it.

00:12:30   And at that point I had it installed on my

00:12:32   daring fireball, a movable type installation.

00:12:36   And nobody knew it wasn't released as a public beta

00:12:41   or announced or anything,

00:12:42   but I'd keep adding things to it or changing things.

00:12:45   And there were certain changes I would make

00:12:49   that were like not backwards compatible.

00:12:51   And so like, I actually did the research the other day.

00:12:55   I like looked up like the first markdown post

00:12:59   in movable type.

00:13:01   the first one that was set to be marked down not raw HTML. And I think it was like October

00:13:07   of 2003. And I don't think I announced the public beta till March. And it hasn't changed

00:13:14   much since that March public beta announcement. But pretty much every single Daring Fireball

00:13:18   entry I wrote from October till March, every week I'd have to go back and change every

00:13:24   one of them to like, you know, to make, you know what I mean? Like I would make it, I'd

00:13:30   make a change to markdown in January and I'd have to go back to October and make sure that

00:13:35   I, you know, whatever syntax I used wasn't in any of those posts in October, November,

00:13:39   December, early January. Um, but it really made markdown way better. Like, like I don't

00:13:45   think if I think if I had released the version that I had when I first started using it,

00:13:49   it would have, it would have, nobody ever would have heard of it. Uh, well anyway, what

00:13:55   happened was we've released it and Aaron was super, super excited about it. And Aaron,

00:13:59   I guess is, you know, he was friends with everybody. He knew everybody. So he knew Corey

00:14:02   Doctorow personally. So he wrote to Boeing, Corey at Boeing Boeing. And Aaron didn't take

00:14:08   credit as a co-collab as a, uh, you know, like a co-author of markdown, but the way

00:14:13   he wrote his email to Corey Doctorow, I think left Corey with the impression that it was

00:14:17   like a joint by Aaron Schwartz and John Gruber thing. And that made its way into Wikipedia

00:14:23   for years and years and years where it said that it was marked down, was created by John

00:14:27   Gruber and Aaron Swartz, blah, blah, blah, which and then you know, the all the unfortunate,

00:14:34   he was more of a conciliary. Yeah, he was like, I would call it and I don't know and

00:14:38   okay, you know, and to my and we were friends for, you know, afterwards. I mean, to my knowledge,

00:14:43   he never once deliberately took credit for it. I think it all came from the initial Boeing

00:14:47   Boeing announcement that said John Gruber and Aaron Schwartz have released markdown.

00:14:54   But then it's like once Aaron killed himself, it's like, you know, what am I going to do?

00:14:59   I know. And I've been meaning for years. The kid, the kid, the kid did so much. I met him

00:15:02   when he was like probably 15. I met him when he was like 16. It was terrifying. Right.

00:15:05   It was terrifying. And it was, he was, he was so scary. He was so intense and so smart.

00:15:11   It was really, really intimidating. He was like a woodland feature. He, he was like a

00:15:15   dog trying to talk about math with, with its owner. Okay. You know, I got basically two

00:15:23   two beefs in life with you. One, I don't understand the Yankees thing. The other one is we are

00:15:28   now in our 13th and a half year of contention about an issue that I posted to the Markdown

00:15:35   discussion in March of 2004. So this would be March 15th, 2004, responding to the thread

00:15:46   here. This is your, so I had said Markdown treats asterisks and underscores as indicators

00:15:50   emphasis. Text wrap with one asterisk or another wrapped in HTML. I said, "Probably leave the

00:15:54   game for a syntax suggestion, but I'm having a hard time getting used to--basically, I

00:16:00   wanted you to go with asterisk--one asterisk on either side is emphasis and an underscore

00:16:09   on either side is italic." And you wrote me a very, very, very bold--

00:16:14   >> You wanted emphasis or you wanted to be bold? Yeah.

00:16:16   Yeah, sorry. Yeah bull face. Yeah. Yeah, but and you wrote me this long and very thoughtful email about the history of all of this

00:16:23   You talked about set text you talked about

00:16:25   lowercase are

00:16:28   Estructed

00:16:29   text

00:16:31   It's so funny. I can't believe that it's been 13 years

00:16:34   That's one of the few things that I put in a markdown that I actually don't like I don't like using underscores for anything

00:16:39   I wish it though. I still get confused in different implement

00:16:42   this is not your fault, but I mean, it's different in what implementation still treat it differently,

00:16:47   especially in like a lot of the web browser ish versions of it where it or don't get me started on

00:16:52   Slack and they're stupid because when I write up, I write up the show notes for reconcilable differences

00:16:57   and I send it to a chairman Syracuse for his anointment and it looks like such a mess in Slack and

00:17:03   he, you know, he knows what it's supposed to look like, but it just drives me nuts. The Slack moon man

00:17:07   markdown syntax makes me so furiously angry. I think Slack does exactly what you want, whereas

00:17:12   Slack uses asterisks for bold and single underscores for italic.

00:17:16   Well, right now, now you got my brain all screwed up with Markdown and the way

00:17:21   it works in Markdown and now all other places, it seems really screwed.

00:17:24   What I was thinking about doing back in the day was using underscores to be the,

00:17:28   to be the wrappers around links because links are, Oh my God. Oh my God.

00:17:34   That's like, this is like man in the high castle. I can't even imagine that.

00:17:37   Oh my God. What an alternate universe that would be.

00:17:41   I love the brackets and the parentheses. Yeah, I think I kind of do too. And if anything,

00:17:46   it was a good move in hindsight because that's so many people no longer underline their links.

00:17:52   You know what I mean? Like so many web pages don't have underlines for links anymore. I

00:17:55   don't. Oh, I see what you're saying. So in other words, at the beginning of the link,

00:17:58   you'd put an underscore at the end of the link, you'd put another underscore and then

00:18:01   you'd put your parentheses for the URL or the brackets to put a URL reference. Right.

00:18:07   But then you'd have underlined text to indicate which is the thing.

00:18:12   Anyway...

00:18:13   You're very polite.

00:18:14   You said the downside would be that Markdown's format would no longer be the same everywhere.

00:18:18   If there's just one consistent style, Markdown should work exactly the same everywhere.

00:18:20   True.

00:18:21   It's also the case that this would add an entire layer of complexity to the software

00:18:24   and you close with "sorry to disappoint, comma, dash, JG."

00:18:29   Sorry to disappoint.

00:18:32   I am surprised.

00:18:34   So anyway, in the early years of markdown, I was disappointed because it didn't seem

00:18:37   to go anywhere. And I thought, my God, this is so great. I'm having so much fun writing

00:18:42   my web posts now that this, I loved it. I didn't want to turn back once I started using

00:18:47   it. It seemed crazy to type, to type, especially lists, lists are the ones where I am somebody

00:18:51   I'm a list maker. And the idea of making a list with opening and closing tags in nested

00:18:55   tags just seemed mental. I know. Well, and the other thing too is I really, really hate

00:19:01   the WYSIWYG list makers. I don't even like the one in Apple Notes, which is one of the

00:19:05   best ever. But I hate like when you're in a word processor and you type a bullet and

00:19:09   a thing and it's like, Oh, you're making a list and I'll put you in list mode. But then

00:19:12   it's like, it, how do you get out of this? It's like you're, they put you in a room where

00:19:18   you make lists and there's only, there's no door to get out. Patreon is really, I like

00:19:24   the Patreon service a lot, but their, their browser editor is like his mind boggling.

00:19:29   It's all like what you've just selected, you get a little pop up where you click on something

00:19:34   to do something, right?

00:19:36   Kind of like you would get in notes, but you get a pop up and it's like, is this a list?

00:19:40   Is this, and if you've got more than one screen full of text, it won't come up.

00:19:43   So you have to go through and keep selecting and selecting and selecting to make a long

00:19:47   list.

00:19:48   It's better than what we have.

00:19:49   The secret to markdown and the thing that drove people nuts at the beginning, and it

00:19:53   seems like it's become popular enough now that nobody bitches about it anymore, but

00:19:57   the secret to it and the difference between everything that came before it is that it

00:20:04   trusts you, the person typing the markdown to type saying markdown. There's all sorts

00:20:11   of ways that you could write. There's no way that you can parse it and say this is a valid

00:20:16   markdown document or not. You can't. It just trusts you to be sane and don't do something

00:20:22   stupid.

00:20:23   Well, it works a damn sight better than...

00:20:26   I mean, I like, again, I also really like Google Docs, but when I paste something into

00:20:30   Google Docs, it's just bananas.

00:20:33   And there's no...

00:20:34   They took away...

00:20:35   They used to have this ability to go in.

00:20:36   I know this is dumb and nobody but me wants this.

00:20:38   They used to have an edit...

00:20:39   I think it was edit as HTML was the selection.

00:20:42   And it would pop it up and you would be able to go in and whatever...

00:20:45   I imagine that the underlying platform stuff changed where it's not exactly HTML anymore,

00:20:50   but it's certainly not like any front page type nonsense.

00:20:52   Like you can now you go in and you go like, Oh, like turn off space after paragraph,

00:20:57   like do all this stuff. Like,

00:20:59   why are there all these bullets that are blank and then space under that?

00:21:03   And for some reason that just bugs me. Like I'm not that tightly wound about this stuff,

00:21:06   but I, if I'm going to do like a, you know, honestly like a sponsor read,

00:21:09   I want it to be very neatly formatted.

00:21:11   I want to understand where the parts of it are and I don't want you to just this

00:21:14   salad of like bullets and letters all over the place. It's,

00:21:17   you know what I've been thinking about doing for years and I think I'm at the

00:21:20   the point where I just need to find the time to bear down and do it. But I want to go back

00:21:26   to my old emails from 2003, 2004 with Aaron and put them together somehow and publish

00:21:34   them in some way as here's how Markdown came to be.

00:21:38   And I've...

00:21:39   Oh, like a, not an oral history, but an email history of Markdown.

00:21:43   An email history of Markdown and the decisions that we made and stuff like that. And see

00:21:47   what I misremember and stuff like that. And it's just part of it is that I'm lazy and

00:21:53   that seems like a big enough project that it's always worth putting out. But the other

00:21:56   part is just the genuine, it pains me in some way to think about going back and looking

00:22:03   at email from somebody who's died so tragically. But anyway, and then I thought, you know,

00:22:09   I don't know, maybe I could put it in ebook or something like that and you know, send

00:22:13   the proceeds to one of Aaron's pet causes or something like that. Anyway, I think it

00:22:19   would be interesting. One of the things I remember specifically was, and it's just like

00:22:24   the ways to make italics and there's two ways to do it, which in theory I'm against. In

00:22:30   theory there should be one way to do it.

00:22:31   Unambiguous way to do it, yeah.

00:22:34   But the reason that it supports both was it just seemed like there were so many people

00:22:39   who like on, you know, who used either plain text email or on Usenet or something like

00:22:43   that, who thought that underscores were the equivalent of italics and just as many people

00:22:50   thought that asterisks were the equivalent of italics.

00:22:52   Right, right, right. Well, it used to be, at least for me, I used to do a lot more of

00:22:57   scooting back and forth, like round-tripping between Markdown and HTML for mostly because

00:23:03   I was probably, because I was doing blog stuff more often, you know, wherever that was, whether

00:23:07   was Drupal or WordPress or whatever. But I don't have much occasion to go HTML to markdown

00:23:14   in my day to day. What I will sometimes do is I'll drag an HTML document into NV alt,

00:23:20   which will then do its best to take whatever the soup of any given HTML document is and

00:23:25   turn it into markdown. It's usually pretty good. But I mean, that's one, it seems like

00:23:29   the ambiguity becomes a factor if you're in an environment where you are taking HTML into

00:23:36   into turning HTML into Markdown and you want to consistently always be the same thing,

00:23:41   maybe for some kind of regex reasons like you never want it to be this instead of that

00:23:44   because it would confuse the machine.

00:23:45   Well, the other the other one that I remember that there's there would you know, I remember

00:23:50   this one was Aaron's idea was that there's two ways to make headers that you could set

00:23:56   text or so the C text style is you write a header. See text. You're probably right. I

00:24:03   I think see text every everything I think is wrong pronunciation wise so let's go set text

00:24:08   What is it it's you underline it with with I actually forget now I never use that style

00:24:15   I know I think one one set of equals is one and underline or dashes is h2

00:24:22   Okay. Yeah, that sounds right. I always do octave. So there's the the big problem with that is that you only get to h2

00:24:31   The other problem is it's more typing

00:24:33   And it was what's harder to format to Aaron had it in his ATX where it was just the octa Thorpe's

00:24:41   it was just the hashtags in front and

00:24:44   He was like you got to put this in I'm not typing all these, you know

00:24:49   I just want to type two octa Thorpe's in my header and hit return return and go and I was like, alright

00:24:55   alright, but I also liked the brilliance of

00:24:59   Like I'm sitting here as the author of markdown and I had a moment where I couldn't remember if equals was h1 or - was

00:25:04   H1, you know or vice versa. Whereas with the octa Thorpe's there's no doubt

00:25:07   One of them is h1 - is h2 3 is h3 up to 6 is h6. That's brilliant

00:25:13   Yeah, it's absolutely brilliant

00:25:15   And then the other thing I remember I seem to remember discussing this with Aaron is I was like

00:25:19   Is it weird that the one that seems like it has more emphasis meaning six octa Thorpe's for an 8/6 is actually the lesser?

00:25:27   And but then what we thought was that no because it's actually more like an outline right where the deeper you go

00:25:34   it's almost like a level of it's like a level of indentation and it's it's gonna work and it's

00:25:39   You know, it's clearly the one that sticks

00:25:41   I I think there's a lot of people who use markdown on a daily basis who don't even know about the equals and - thing. Oh

00:25:46   I would bet I want to start a new document. I live mostly in h2 and h3

00:25:51   H1 is this hallowed thing?

00:25:53   I kind of rarely use when you start a new document is h1 the title of the document or

00:25:58   is it a top level?

00:25:59   I've never known what to do about that.

00:26:01   I always start with h2 like if I'm doing show notes in a text document I always start with

00:26:07   like I might have you know two octothorpe pound sign two pound signs titles and topics

00:26:13   two pound signs follow-up two pound sign sponsor it's and then like listener feedback two and

00:26:18   then for each and then I'll just like do three octothorps listener Jason question about resetting

00:26:23   iPhone settings. You know what I mean? That's that makes the most sense. And then there's

00:26:28   some that will actually like make an outline for you now. Right. I mean, aren't there some

00:26:31   that'll give you like a left rail or there's some I, I don't, you know, all I use is I

00:26:37   use the most basic stuff. It's so bad. I should, I should get sexier with this stuff, but you

00:26:41   know, my trick that I have a daring fireball or if you add dot T X dot T X T to any of

00:26:47   of my articles permalinks,

00:26:48   you can get the raw markdown version.

00:26:51   So in that, the header part is actually part of a template

00:26:55   that that doesn't come out.

00:26:56   I don't type that when I type the article,

00:26:58   but I use, in that format, I use the H1 tag for the,

00:27:02   or H1's format for the title.

00:27:05   - Oh, look at that.

00:27:08   And you're using equals.

00:27:09   - Yeah.

00:27:10   - How funny. - Yeah, 'cause that's H1.

00:27:12   But I don't have to do that, you know what I mean?

00:27:14   Like I don't do that manually.

00:27:15   That happens automatically.

00:27:16   and getting the exact right number of equals,

00:27:18   that's some kind of complicated reg ex

00:27:21   in my movable type template.

00:27:23   - I'm intrigued by the way you do your,

00:27:27   what do you call it, not the anchor,

00:27:28   but the way you title your links.

00:27:30   You usually do like two characters

00:27:31   that are like the author of the article.

00:27:34   Okay, all right, that's good.

00:27:36   - And where do I put them?

00:27:37   Sometimes I put here,

00:27:38   here's one where I put them all at the end.

00:27:41   - I used to be really meticulous

00:27:42   about always putting at the bottom.

00:27:43   - Sometimes on a longer article,

00:27:44   I like to put it right after the block quote.

00:27:47   - Oh yeah.

00:27:47   Do you usually do that kind?

00:27:49   You don't do much in-line, do you?

00:27:51   - No, not really.

00:27:52   You can, you know, if you browse around on a daily basis,

00:27:54   you could see when I do in-line and when I don't.

00:27:56   The shorter the post, the more likely I am to do in-line.

00:27:59   - Of course.

00:27:59   Well, one thing that's nice,

00:28:00   and I think this is an NVL feature,

00:28:01   but when I'm in NVL,

00:28:03   so if you've got a URL in the clipboard,

00:28:06   you can select some text and hit, what?

00:28:08   Option command V, I think.

00:28:11   Let me try this.

00:28:12   - Isn't it funny how you do it without thinking,

00:28:14   But now that you have to talk about it, you can't.

00:28:16   I know.

00:28:16   I know.

00:28:17   Yeah, Option-Command-V. So if you've got a URL in the clipboard,

00:28:21   you select something.

00:28:22   You hit Option-Command-V. It turns the word you selected--

00:28:26   it puts the word you selected inside of brackets,

00:28:28   and then puts the URL in parentheses right after it.

00:28:31   It's a real huge time saver.

00:28:32   All right, so let's just rewind here for a little bit.

00:28:35   All right, sexy stuff.

00:28:35   You want to start the show?

00:28:37   So you got nv-alt. Now are you syncing that?

00:28:41   Yes, it's very funny.

00:28:42   I am apparently not the only person in this condition,

00:28:44   but I have a Dropbox folder called Elements

00:28:47   because there was a time when the text editor

00:28:49   called Elements came out when it,

00:28:51   this might've preceded the days of slash apps.

00:28:53   - That was Justin Williams' app.

00:28:55   - Right, and Elements was a really good--

00:28:58   - Was really, really good.

00:28:59   This is like a 2008, 2009.

00:29:01   - This is after I lost my mind with SimpleNote,

00:29:05   dropping some data one time and I was like,

00:29:06   that's it, game over.

00:29:07   Crisis of confidence.

00:29:11   Yeah, Justin made that, but it was hardwired to a top level Dropbox slash elements and

00:29:16   to this day, all of my text files, 600 text files are still Alex Cox.

00:29:22   Same way.

00:29:23   I'm going to say that when an app that syncs data, like a notes app loses data, it is to

00:29:29   me at least it is like you own a store and you've caught the kid at the cashier taking

00:29:35   money out of the register.

00:29:36   It's like it's you're out, you're done.

00:29:38   It is in a rage like I've got the kid by the back of the jacket and it's like get the you know

00:29:43   You frog marching out of your general exactly

00:29:47   Yeah, but it still happens sometimes and I don't I lose things sometimes and

00:29:57   Well, no, but you know what a lot of the times though for me

00:30:00   It's like you suspect the kid is just taking money out of the register. I can't prove it

00:30:06   But like when you can prove it. It's it's like it turns me into a

00:30:10   Red rage and I know you know and I don't want a bad mouth simple note because I believe and and they were pretty soft

00:30:16   They were pretty solid like 99, but I think they are now now that they're I think they're in good hands with the

00:30:23   The WordPress people what's what's the parent company at WordPress?

00:30:27   Automatic is is took over. I don't know. Yeah, I had no idea and now I just I have a Dropbox folder that I sync with

00:30:35   Dropbox folder syncs all my stuff in editorial and nv-alt that's a nv-alt points at that elements folder

00:30:40   Editorial is using that on iOS and then for drafts

00:30:43   I just use I think I'm just using iCloud sync for drafts because I don't want them

00:30:47   I don't want those little like one-liners to get mixed in with my actual file. Yeah

00:30:51   What do you use? What do you what do you use? I still use Vesper, but it no no longer sinks

00:30:58   So Vesper I have a combination

00:31:00   I've got Vesper on the phone and that is for certain.

00:31:03   You're like one of those people that has their pet stuffed. That's, that's Lulu.

00:31:08   She's a good, good girl.

00:31:10   I, I'm, I use Apple notes extensively and ever since the,

00:31:15   I think it was a year ago, the year ago,

00:31:17   I think revision is when they switched from their goofy eye map sinking to

00:31:22   cloud kit and whenever that was,

00:31:26   it was either a year ago or two years ago it, it,

00:31:28   their sinking became rock solid. And I love the shared thing. Like we have a shared note

00:31:33   right here. I do it every week with whoever's on the show. Their shared document thing is

00:31:38   dynamite. It really is. I love it so much. It's so great for birthdays and Christmas

00:31:43   and shopping. I use Apple Notes and on my Mac that I've got. So I've got an iPhone only

00:31:49   notes app Vesper on my iPhone. I've got Apple Notes which sinks everywhere. But then on

00:31:54   On my Mac, my Macs, I have Vesper, not Vesper, Yojimbo, where I keep a lot of stuff.

00:32:00   Oh, of course.

00:32:01   Now, Yojimbo syncs and it syncs extraordinarily well, but it's a Mac only app.

00:32:06   It only syncs from Mac to Mac.

00:32:09   And somehow in my head, I know where everything is.

00:32:13   I know exactly which type of things I put in Vesper that I want on my phone everywhere

00:32:17   I go.

00:32:18   I know exactly what type of things I put in Yojimbo.

00:32:21   And I know that everything else is in Apple Notes. And every once in a while I have to

00:32:26   search two of them to find something. But for the most part I just have this inexplicable

00:32:31   intuitive way of doing it. So for example...

00:32:33   Do you use Siri with Apple Notes very much?

00:32:36   No. Like how and what way to tell her to make a new note?

00:32:39   Well I mean the thing that limits me and how much I use Apple Notes, and candidly I way

00:32:45   overthink this, but you know me I'm trying to become the voice guy. And I want to utilize

00:32:49   that more. So I tend to name things in Apple Notes, obviously intuitively, but the way

00:32:55   I would name something in NV-ALT is pretty bananas. Like I have this really silly, like

00:33:00   for example, here is the latest episode of Back to Work in NV-ALT and in a text file

00:33:04   is B2W show-notex-e350-date.md. And that means that is the format that I use for every single

00:33:14   show notes thing. I could find show notes for anything instantly like that, but good

00:33:17   luck trying to use Siri to add something that's named in such a way. So my Apple notes are

00:33:24   like a four year old has named them. It's like TV to watch words I do not like books.

00:33:32   And so the idea is I want it to be all stuffed. It's intuitive that I could say to Siri that

00:33:36   I'd be able to add things to a list even though I'm not using it very much like that. And

00:33:41   in theory, I get it. I get where Apple is going with Siri and I get how they have like

00:33:45   a billion active users around the world and that these are normal people. But it's like

00:33:51   I miss the old ways of if you've got some kind of automation utility, there's a way

00:34:00   to make it so that if you have a weird header format like that or a first line format like

00:34:06   that, there's a way that you could go in and make it. In theory, there should be a way

00:34:11   that you could teach Siri that when you tell her to make a note that that she could she

00:34:15   could do something like that for you. And I'm you got to get the incantation right.

00:34:19   I mean, it's a little bit like timers and reminders. Are you creating? Are you creating

00:34:22   a note? Are you adding to a note? Are you adding to a reminders list? Are you creating

00:34:26   a mind? There's all kinds of ways you I find myself having to stop a little bit and remember

00:34:30   to get the incantation right. You know, remind me to take out pasta in six minutes. But it's

00:34:35   sort of like if you like, like the goal here would be to, it would be like having a human

00:34:40   assistant with you. Oh, when I say this, you know, yeah. So like if I had an assistant

00:34:46   who was always at my side, a real human being and you know, smart, bright person and, and

00:34:53   I could say, Hey, make a note. I want to talk to Merlin about markdown history. And, and

00:35:01   if this assistant knows that I like to put every note

00:35:04   with some kind of like a date string at the top,

00:35:07   they'll do that automatically

00:35:08   'cause they know I wanna do it.

00:35:10   You know what I mean?

00:35:11   Because I've told them that.

00:35:12   And I'm like, "Hey, every time I tell you to make a note,

00:35:14   "make the first line like this."

00:35:16   - And always put the date in, but put it last.

00:35:18   Like I don't need to see that,

00:35:19   but like I need to know when it was created.

00:35:20   - Right, 'cause I wanna scan it.

00:35:22   When I scan the list of them,

00:35:23   I wanna see the words that I'm using.

00:35:24   - Yeah, the first word should be something very important.

00:35:27   I get what you're saying.

00:35:30   don't don't make me have to learn how the assistant thinks.

00:35:33   You ever use keyboard maestro?

00:35:39   You know, I've played with it. I've got it. And I've played with it. In another era, if this were

00:35:45   10 years ago, I would be spending half my day on that app, because it does look very powerful.

00:35:50   And you can do stuff like can't you like do screens like like not screens like but you can

00:35:54   control remotely using keyboard maestro like it sounds like it does like pretty much everything.

00:35:58   The remote stuff, there's something like that, but I think that he kind of got away from

00:36:03   that.

00:36:04   But it's a way to patch all kinds of stuff you don't currently like about how stuff works.

00:36:08   You can make it do a thing for you fairly easily.

00:36:10   And I've had it for years, and then I kind of didn't use it for a while, or didn't do

00:36:15   anything new with it for a while.

00:36:16   I had a couple of things that, you know, there's...

00:36:18   Would you say it's a little bit like workflow on iOS?

00:36:20   Yeah, it's the same basic idea, but way more powerful because it's on the Mac, and the

00:36:24   Mac just has way more stuff you can do.

00:36:26   So for example, actually let me do sponsor break

00:36:30   and I'll come back, this will be a good thing.

00:36:32   Then I know where we were.

00:36:34   Look, I'm gonna take these sponsor breaks,

00:36:36   everybody you gotta pay attention.

00:36:38   By the end of the show,

00:36:39   everybody you're gonna have your holiday shopping.

00:36:41   You're gonna be half done.

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00:38:44   shirts from getting all messed up by everything else that you pack in there. Um, they have

00:38:48   got that whole like whole half of it is like a zipper area where you can just put loose stuff and

00:38:52   yes that's the zip the left panel is a zippered area where you can put all that stuff that that

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00:39:02   laundry bag that keeps dirty clothes separate from clean uh i love that thing it sounds so simple it

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00:39:54   There's a guy there who's smugly has two things plugged into it and it's like I've been here for three eight that I hate that

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00:40:37   that just mean you have to charge your suitcase all the time? And eventually you do. Yes,

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00:40:47   you only have to do that like once in a while. Like maybe at the end of a trip when you empty

00:40:51   your suitcase, just go plug it in and then it'll be ready to go for your next trip. You

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00:41:13   She said, this will be mine now. And I said, very well, you take that bag and that's hers

00:41:17   now. And so when she has to do her business trips, she has to like head out to Washington

00:41:20   for one night. The poor thing. She just jams everything in that bag and takes off and she

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00:41:31   want to buy somebody else a suitcase for the holidays. I don't know. I think it's not a

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00:42:10   The other one had like her in it.

00:42:12   It's so hard to get hair out of a wheel.

00:42:14   I deal with this was my daughter's backpack.

00:42:16   I'm in there with the tweezers and exacto knife, like some kind of an animal.

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00:43:05   All right, I was talking about keyboard maestro keyboard maestro this great long-standing Mac utility

00:43:10   now developed by stairway software, which is

00:43:13   Peter Peter Lewis's company

00:43:16   Down in

00:43:19   Peter Lewis, is that the Australian guy? Yeah. Oh he did. Oh god. What did he do?

00:43:24   Did he did the fd2 Interarkey? Yeah, which is still around which is still around but he has since sold that to a different company

00:43:31   Did I say that right but he had like an FTP app back in the day, right? That is correct Wow

00:43:34   Wow. I would say keyboard maestro, if you've never, I really recommend anybody who wants

00:43:40   to nerd out on their Mac, try it, but it's sort of like a cross between automator and

00:43:46   Apple script and quick keys. Yeah. Like the quick keys from back in the day, but you can

00:43:52   make these macros and can do amazing things. But the thing that you can do is you can like

00:43:55   make your own features in an application. And here's the one that I think of and I'm

00:43:59   often loathe to make these requests. So for example, I don't know why, but in Twitter,

00:44:05   I've got three main accounts in descending order. I've got my at Gruber at daring fireball

00:44:11   and at the talk show. And for whatever reason, years ago I decided that anytime I reply to

00:44:18   like an ad during fireball tweet, I'm going to do it from at Gruber that at me, John Gruber

00:44:24   is at Gruber. And when somebody writes at during fireball in my mind, somehow they're

00:44:29   writing at the publication. I don't know if that makes sense. I think everybody could

00:44:36   guess that if @daringfireball replied to you, who's writing it? But it just doesn't seem

00:44:42   right to me because if you added The Verge and The Verge wrote back to you, you wouldn't

00:44:47   know who's writing. And I don't plan on adding collaborators. But anyway.

00:44:52   People may ask a question to the publication, but they're receiving a response from the

00:44:55   publisher.

00:44:56   In Tweetbot, that meant that for years and years,

00:44:58   I would go through the @DaringFireball replies,

00:45:01   and I get tons of great stuff there.

00:45:03   I love Twitter for feedback on my work

00:45:05   so much better than email,

00:45:07   because it forces the brevity.

00:45:09   I don't read all my email.

00:45:11   I do read every single @Reply to @Gruber

00:45:14   at DaringFireball at the talk show.

00:45:16   And it doesn't feel like a chore

00:45:18   to be at the Twitter equivalent of inbox zero every day

00:45:23   with those things.

00:45:25   So anybody out there who's ever attempted to write to me,

00:45:27   I'm way more likely to see it if what you're willing to say

00:45:30   you're willing to do in public is a Twitter reply.

00:45:32   And I'm way more likely to write back.

00:45:34   But I'm constantly clicking on, in Tweetbot,

00:45:37   you reply from that during Fireball,

00:45:39   and then you have to click on your avatar

00:45:41   and then select the other account.

00:45:42   Like you click on the avatar

00:45:43   and you get a little pop-up menu.

00:45:45   And for years I've been doing it,

00:45:46   and I've been thinking I would,

00:45:47   maybe I should write to Tapbots and ask them for a feature

00:45:51   that when I reply from this account,

00:45:53   reply from this other account.

00:45:55   And the thing that never made me,

00:45:56   every time I think to write that request,

00:45:58   I think this is asking for a feature

00:46:00   that there's one person who's going to use, and that's me.

00:46:03   And that just feels, I wouldn't do that ordinarily,

00:46:07   but as John Gruber, the person who writes

00:46:09   this influential site that is nice when you get links from,

00:46:13   they might be more tempted to do it,

00:46:14   and that makes me feel awful.

00:46:16   And I think, I can't write this email, this is terrible.

00:46:18   And then I realized, like a month ago,

00:46:20   I realized, you know what,

00:46:21   I could frickin' do that with Keyboard Maestro.

00:46:24   And so I made like a macro that, um, um,

00:46:29   I type command R and it, it, in,

00:46:34   and the macro is only available in tweet bot, right? So keep the keyboard.

00:46:38   Meister will let you make like an app specific shortcut. Um,

00:46:42   I type command R, which was the tweet bot shortcut for replying tweet,

00:46:47   our keyboard maestro sees it first and keyboard maestro.

00:46:51   The first thing it does is it itself types the command R keystroke.

00:46:55   And I thought when I was making this, I was like, well,

00:46:57   this is going to put me in an infinite loop, right?

00:46:59   Because it's going to like keyboard.

00:47:01   Maestro is going to eat the command R again, and it's,

00:47:03   I'm going to have to like force quit something, but no, it just works.

00:47:06   Keyboard maestro is so smart that it can eat the command R that I typed then type

00:47:10   a virtual command R that tweet bot sees it opens the reply window.

00:47:15   It fakes a click on the,

00:47:19   the avatar and then hit like so it's not using a menu selection and using like a location

00:47:24   on the screen. Well, it just that's old school. That is really old school clicks at 34, 180

00:47:31   from the top left corner of the front window. But I didn't have to type that. I did that.

00:47:36   I did that by recording in keyboard maestro. You just hit record, click in the middle of

00:47:42   the avatar, move down when it's inside the app window. So I get it. Okay, so it's not

00:47:46   confused about the whole overall screen. It's just the ads. I mean, it defaults to that.

00:47:50   When you record it defaults to doing it within the window. Uh, and then it types the down

00:47:56   arrow keystroke, which would move the selection to the, which I happen to know. I just happen

00:48:02   to know that the ad Gruber account is at the top. Like if I wanted to switch to the second

00:48:06   one, it would have to type like down arrow twice and then types the return keystroke

00:48:09   to select the item. And then the second thought I had is, well, this is going to be so slow.

00:48:14   going to like annoy me. But it happens so instantaneously fast that you don't even see

00:48:18   it. Yeah, I 10 years ago that would have been slow right now. Exactly. I think process so

00:48:22   quick. So I type command or I tap on a tweet in a tweet bot. I type command are and it

00:48:28   doesn't matter which account I'm in. It's already it. The reply is coming from at grouper,

00:48:31   which is the feature I wanted and I never had to bother the tap on people to do it and

00:48:35   it's every bit as good as if tap as if tweet bot did it itself. Like there's no delay,

00:48:40   no weight it doesn't work like 90% of the time it works 100% of the time that's a good

00:48:47   solution that's good use for them so anyway I don't know how we got started on somehow

00:48:50   talking about I think I mean I don't I don't do nearly as many of those as I used to but

00:48:54   sounds like you've got a sounds like you have a lot of those things in drafts though like

00:48:59   with drafts or really yeah yeah so drafts has all kinds of like little scripts you can

00:49:04   add in to do stuff and I mean you can I first of all I just say I love drafts like it's

00:49:09   it's just that for me drafts is it's so fast and it's so easy and what

00:49:15   undistracting I mean it's really just there to say what do you need to type

00:49:18   Merlin and I type it and then it does something with it and so for me I mean

00:49:22   there's so much you can do with drafts that I'm not doing it's just that for me

00:49:26   it's I mean totally candid if editorial had a way to create a blank document I

00:49:31   guess you could use templates in there I don't know I just like the cleanliness

00:49:34   of drafts you know the thing is that this is a very kind of 43 folders type

00:49:38   of thing where even though like I'm not generating a lot of those things, I mean there's a reason

00:49:43   I'm still using TextMate 1 with all of my old commands in there because I know how that

00:49:47   stuff works and that's, I know that's ludicrous, I should be using Sublime Text or something

00:49:51   but I just haven't changed it over, it works fine, I've got macros in there that I'm still

00:49:54   using for different things. But no, I mean I think the key part of this is to, you know,

00:50:00   if there's any anti-pattern in the productivity world, it's like going out and trying to find

00:50:04   50 answers to a problem that isn't a problem. Like trying to find answers to a question

00:50:09   that doesn't exist. But the corollary being, well, how do you develop a presence of mind

00:50:14   to go like, okay, this is kind of an annoying thing I'd like to fix. I don't want to bug

00:50:18   the developer about it. Like how could I, you know, there's just a million things where

00:50:22   you just develop a little more mindfulness about noticing something that could be fixed

00:50:26   and then adopting the tools that will let you do that in an elegant way. And I think

00:50:29   that's, that's a really smart way to proceed whatever platform you're using, whatever year

00:50:34   Here it is.

00:50:35   I think it's so interesting now that we're 10 years into the iPhone and it's just sort

00:50:39   of part of the air that we breathe on a daily basis, how we have evolved these ways to just

00:50:48   basically have the same shit on whatever device we're using.

00:50:53   You know what I mean?

00:50:55   Because it was a huge problem in the early years, right?

00:50:57   We had these amazing...

00:50:58   Everybody was blown away by the iPhone and it was fantastic.

00:51:00   And it was like, this is...

00:51:01   I'm in Star Trek here. I've got this amazing thing." Remember, you'd hook up your iPhone

00:51:09   to your Mac and then you'd go through iTunes and it would update your contacts between

00:51:14   the two.

00:51:15   Hey, I got a new podcast. Yeah, no, no, totally. Something in this evolution of mine to try

00:51:22   and not stay current to be a cool kid but just to not become all calcified is when I

00:51:27   look at stuff like what you can do with an iPad Pro now and I think it's it gets

00:51:31   kind of misframed as okay there's people over here who say they'll only ever use

00:51:35   a desktop forever and then there's the phrases and three cuz of the world over

00:51:39   here that are like our died in the wall iPad will never use anything else and

00:51:43   there's a giant continuum in between and I think to figure out what the right

00:51:46   device for you is you have to be you have testing humility about asking

00:51:50   yourself what you actually really need on this device and I have I mean if I'm

00:51:55   honest like there's so much stuff where I would go "I could never do that on the

00:51:59   iPad." Well you know what the iPad's got a lot of firepower now. It's not a

00:52:02   processing problem anymore. It's more a case now of saying like "Well, do I expect

00:52:07   something like Keyboard Maestro on the iPad? Well geez I could never give up

00:52:10   because I don't have I don't have Hazel on my iPad or whatever." And the truth is

00:52:15   like you know there are cases where that is absolutely true and you always like

00:52:19   I'll always want to do all kinds of things on my Mac over iOS device but if

00:52:24   If you're really honest with yourself and you kind of trace back in the stack and say

00:52:28   like, well, what is the actual problem that I'm trying to solve here?

00:52:30   What's the actual kind of work that I'm ultimately trying to produce?

00:52:33   Let's take away the tools for a minute and say like, this is where my job starts.

00:52:36   This is where my job is mostly done.

00:52:38   What needs to happen in between?

00:52:40   And for myself, I found that if I asked that question with humility and honesty, there's

00:52:44   not that much stuff that I can't do in some way on the iPad.

00:52:49   What's the thing that Snell uses?

00:52:50   There's that thing where you turn it on.

00:52:54   is that? I keep every time he mentions it and I hear it on a podcast I'm like, "Oh,

00:52:57   I gotta get that." I've got to use that! I've got to use that. And I always forget the

00:53:01   name. Yeah, and basically, it's just when you flip it, the idea is that if when you're

00:53:05   on your, the initial use of that is when you're on your laptop, you don't want to burn through

00:53:10   all your bandwidth on this and that thing. But it's perfect for Skype recording where

00:53:14   I would just say, Plex, Backblaze, Time Machine, like Dropbox, like pause all of those things.

00:53:23   let those things touch the internet while I'm doing this show. I apologize. I try to

00:53:26   ride that stuff. It's not an easy way to quit. There used to be an app you could get for

00:53:31   Time Machine. It was like Time Machine Manager. What do you back up to? You back up to a Time

00:53:37   Machine airport base station type thing? I used to. Because if you're just backing up

00:53:42   to a hard drive that's connected, that's not going to affect the network. Yeah, you know,

00:53:47   you're probably right. But then I checked and it was also backblaze going. And now it

00:53:52   is stopped. But sorry, I'm so sorry about that. So basically, I just gone on a rant

00:53:56   to say that my side should be clean. I basically all I was saying was that if I'm honest with

00:54:03   myself and think focus on the work that I'm trying to create, there's not that many cases

00:54:08   where it's just undoable on any given device. I just have to think about what it is I'm

00:54:12   actually doing instead of the tools that I'm accustomed to.

00:54:14   Yeah. So speaking of these devices, you're there's a thing here in the show notes. Your

00:54:20   Your daughter got a Chromebook.

00:54:23   This is so, this breaks my heart.

00:54:25   So they use Chromebooks at school.

00:54:26   It's what they do a lot of their stuff on.

00:54:29   So there's actually two funny stories here.

00:54:31   Funny story number one is, I am ready to throw my MacBook adorable into the sea because the

00:54:39   I've been at some something like eight months, almost a year in with this thing.

00:54:43   And I still can't get used to the arrow keys.

00:54:45   I agree up and down.

00:54:47   I hate it so much.

00:54:48   I hate the arrow keys.

00:54:49   I don't have one. I don't. But I it's, it's the same on a MacBook Pro now, dude. I know

00:54:53   the same thing when I tested the MacBook Pro last year and I realized, you know, that the

00:54:58   ports are an issue and the USB thing is a huge issue, you know, and, and, and I do feel

00:55:03   like a lot of the power users, they have legitimate gripes about Apple's decision making on this

00:55:08   thing. Um, but I really do feel that an awful lot of it boils down to Apple bet big on USB

00:55:14   And the industry did not move to USB C like you go and look for USB C peripherals and it's like crickets chirping

00:55:20   It's like Marco has laid this out very well if you even even if you buy in on dongle town

00:55:26   There's still not any way to do what you would want to do

00:55:29   Let's say you want to record it like he does you want to record a live podcast with the top of the line MacBook Pro

00:55:34   There's really no way to do that and get power at this point, right?

00:55:38   And you know what? I mean, you don't want to record a show without power. I mean nice

00:55:42   Their show runs kind of long. No, you're right that was not a MacGuffin exact

00:55:47   I know yeah, that was certainly the thing everybody noticed but like I the in what he call it the inverted T

00:55:52   Yeah pattern of arrows. I had no I because you know like you probably I'm very into

00:55:57   I don't know what you call it that text editing of you know command option. Yep. Yep

00:56:02   Shift and arrow keys and I fly through text like crazy using that. I don't know what and I feel utterly hobbled without it

00:56:10   It's a you know what it is. It's a USB a situation all over again

00:56:12   Like it seems like about 50% of the time I should hit the right arrow

00:56:16   Up or down and I almost always get the wrong arrow and I don't know why yeah

00:56:19   I at some point very early in my days in a late 80s in high school when I first got on a Macintosh and I realized

00:56:27   That in some app that you could you know use the shift key with the arrows to select text

00:56:33   You know as you do it and then if you hold the option key

00:56:36   it goes a word at a time, and if you use the command key,

00:56:40   it'll go to the beginning or end of the current line

00:56:42   or paragraph, and then I realized that it's exactly the same

00:56:46   in every good Mac app, and it was like,

00:56:49   ah, that's where I fell in love with the Mac.

00:56:52   And those--

00:56:54   - Yeah, why was I never taught this?

00:56:56   It's so mental.

00:56:57   - Right, and this is from an era when words,

00:57:00   or even on the Apple, there'd be different command key

00:57:04   Sequences for selecting and moving around text in every app every you know like das era or apple

00:57:10   I've just put I've just put the

00:57:13   Support Apple support doc into your show notes there you go because it's you I bet you

00:57:18   I'll bet you dimes of donuts almost anybody who looks at this page

00:57:21   You're gonna find five things on this page you didn't even know existed, and it's it once you internalize them

00:57:26   It's mind-blowing and one of the best things about iOS is that iOS has inherited all of these?

00:57:32   My iPad with a Bluetooth keyboard is a very powerful tool right now right and it's crazy and it's a big part to me

00:57:39   It's a big part of the way that these iPad

00:57:41   You know the Federico's and like Jason, you know

00:57:43   Jason Snell is doing it was surprising to me because you know Federico's younger and his brain hasn't he's doing a lot of typing

00:57:50   But I mean there are people who are editing like legit podcasts and like ferrite now

00:57:54   But people who prefer that over a Mac at this point

00:57:56   But for whatever reason on a MacBook keyboard at some point I also

00:58:02   internalized that that that gap above the left and right arrow keys

00:58:06   I can't explain why the full height left and right arrow keys

00:58:10   Mess me up because in theory it should only be better right there. They will make make the left and right keys half height

00:58:17   I'll be happy. It's you know what I'm saying like they don't all need to be big

00:58:21   But if you just made even just making the left is it so what it is right now the left and right key are what?

00:58:26   we'll call full height and then the up and down arrow keys are in between our half height and

00:58:31   And for whatever reason, I find it virtually impossible

00:58:34   to hit the left and right one,

00:58:36   'cause the proximity is just weird

00:58:38   and I end up hitting the wrong one all the time.

00:58:39   - And I've just got this habit

00:58:40   to locate my hand on those keys by the gap

00:58:44   that exists when they were all half height.

00:58:46   You know what I mean?

00:58:47   - I'm doing it right now on this Bluetooth keyboard.

00:58:48   So my ring finger on my right hand

00:58:50   rests above the right arrow key.

00:58:52   I'm sorry, my ring finger.

00:58:54   My index finger on my right hand is on the left key.

00:58:57   This is basically, if my hand is not on the mouse,

00:58:59   this is where my hand is.

00:59:00   And then my middle finger is on the up arrow.

00:59:03   That's just, that is my posture on a keyboard.

00:59:05   - I don't know, I could not get used to it

00:59:08   when I tried those keys.

00:59:09   And I know that people are complaining about things

00:59:11   like keys getting stuck, and that's just,

00:59:13   that's a bug in the design of the keyboard.

00:59:15   You know, like Apple didn't deliberately make it

00:59:18   so that your E key would get stuck every once in a while.

00:59:21   - But if you have a sandwich near that,

00:59:22   you may need to replace the top half of your computer

00:59:24   is a thing that happens now.

00:59:25   - This new full height left and right arrow key

00:59:28   is a deliberate design decision,

00:59:30   and it makes me insanely angry.

00:59:32   - So, you know, it's cute and it weighs very little

00:59:37   and it's nice, but you know, I,

00:59:40   you wouldn't believe the hour and a half that I spent

00:59:41   trying to find the Mac that Marco was recommending,

00:59:44   the 2015 laptop.

00:59:47   Long story short, I've been thinking about

00:59:48   getting a new laptop and I said,

00:59:50   'cause you know, I'm awesome dad, I'm a cool dad,

00:59:53   and so I'm ready to really spring this

00:59:54   on my 10 year old daughter and I say,

00:59:56   You know, in the event that Dad gets a new laptop,

01:00:01   there's a chance that this guy right here could be yours.

01:00:05   And she's just like, "Mm, I want a Chromebook."

01:00:07   It's like, "You want a what?

01:00:09   "What?

01:00:10   "Go wash your mouth out with soap.

01:00:12   "A Chromebook?

01:00:12   "What kind of talk is that in this house?

01:00:14   "'Cause everything she uses is Apple, iPad, iPhone, iPod."

01:00:19   You know, Amazon, yes,

01:00:20   but like every device that she uses is Apple,

01:00:25   but she loves the Chromebooks that they use at school.

01:00:27   And I asked her about it today.

01:00:28   I said, I'm gonna talk to uncle John Gruber.

01:00:29   Tell me what the problem is.

01:00:30   You know what she likes about it?

01:00:32   She likes that it's heavy and big and sturdy.

01:00:34   And she likes the large keyboard on it.

01:00:37   - You know what?

01:00:38   That's actually, that is not what I expected to hear.

01:00:43   I kind of get what she's, I get it though, right?

01:00:46   'Cause you feel like, you know,

01:00:48   you know. - Well, it's whatever

01:00:52   you're used to, right?

01:00:53   I mean, that's-- - Yeah.

01:00:54   Her typing on a keyboard.

01:00:56   So in the morning when I brush her hair,

01:00:57   she looks at YouTube videos.

01:00:59   That's the extent of her using a physical keyboard at home.

01:01:02   - But you pick up the MacBook Adorable

01:01:03   and if you're used to that big, heavy, chunky, sturdy,

01:01:06   this feels like a sturdy piece of machinery,

01:01:09   the MacBook Adorable feels like a piece of glass

01:01:11   that you're gonna break.

01:01:12   - Inconsequential.

01:01:13   You feel like if you put your drink down wrong,

01:01:14   it's gonna go out the window.

01:01:15   - Right.

01:01:16   Like a strong gust of wind is gonna take it.

01:01:18   - Oh my God.

01:01:19   So we had the big carnival at school

01:01:22   and I swear this is not a jam up.

01:01:23   My wife is the co-chair of the carnival.

01:01:25   One of the things we did,

01:01:26   we bought some of the stuff to be auctioned off.

01:01:28   And one of the things was we donated personally,

01:01:30   like an Amazon dot.

01:01:32   And we said, "Hey, you know, people love these Chromebooks.

01:01:34   We should buy a Chromebook and we'll give that away.

01:01:36   Then we'll, you know, get paid back by the school."

01:01:39   And I don't know if it works like this at your kid's school,

01:01:42   but there's seven parents at the school who do everything.

01:01:45   So not only do we put on the carnival,

01:01:47   but then we spent the most money at the carnival.

01:01:49   Like we gave lots of money.

01:01:50   We bought like a hundred dollars in raffle tickets.

01:01:53   And guess what that did?

01:01:55   That produced a situation where we won the Chromebook

01:01:57   that we had bought for the carnival.

01:01:59   And we were like, no, no, seriously.

01:02:01   Oh man, we like, we were like, seriously,

01:02:03   this is a jam up.

01:02:04   Like, I'm gonna feel so bad if this is a jam up.

01:02:06   And they're like, no, no, no, you legit won.

01:02:07   Like you bought all the raffle tickets.

01:02:09   - It feels like you're part of the Trump family now though.

01:02:11   Right?

01:02:12   - Oh my God.

01:02:13   (laughing)

01:02:15   I got the Javanka book.

01:02:16   - Right, it's like you're hosting state department dinners

01:02:19   at the Trump National Golf Course.

01:02:21   We felt so wrong, so privileged, and like, we donated this and we won it, merp!

01:02:28   But we were assured that it was a fair contest.

01:02:30   The truth is we're not going to expense it.

01:02:33   That if we won it, we feel like, well, okay, we won't ask to be repaid for it.

01:02:38   But yeah, no, we won it.

01:02:39   We haven't set it up yet because I'm kind of going through this whole thing with my

01:02:42   daughter about how we need to...

01:02:46   If you're going to be on a computer, there's stuff we need to talk about and stuff you

01:02:50   you need to learn. I know you think you know it, but no, you need to really, really learn

01:02:52   it. Like, you're not going to like your password. And she cried when I told her that she couldn't

01:02:56   use her fairly secure account password that she's got, which is a one password, English

01:03:02   word, dice ware set of words. But like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm in the interest of the

01:03:07   military grade password and you're going to hate it. But you know, that's a vector, right?

01:03:13   So but anyway, I just thought that was funny. I want to know, we talked before about, you

01:03:16   your son is the bellwether. He's a little older than mine. My kid, a few years. And

01:03:21   so like, I feel like you get this stuff before I did. Um, she loves the crumb. What's, what

01:03:26   is his situation?

01:03:27   Jonas has no love for the Macintosh at all. He likes, he doesn't.

01:03:32   Oh my God. This is heartbreaking. He's your accused kid. Same way.

01:03:34   Yeah. And you know, Molt's kid got a gaming laptop.

01:03:38   Dan's son is on a PC for games right now.

01:03:40   And Jonas, I think if he had his druthers would have like a razor laptop or something.

01:03:45   Are we old? What happened? I don't know. It's like I said to you, there was something, you

01:03:50   know, literally it's not the, it's not us, it's the laptops that got small. Literally

01:03:53   it's the elegance of things like having the same text editing shortcuts and those shortcuts

01:03:58   being so sensible, you know, that it wasn't just that they were the same in all apps,

01:04:04   but that they were sensible and that there was this consistency. And I don't know, I

01:04:08   fell in love with the Macintosh as soon as I saw it and I wanted to totally make stuff

01:04:12   with it and Jonas treats his as a thing that runs games and and a thing that

01:04:18   runs YouTube I take the mouse I'm clicking on edit I'm clicking on copy

01:04:25   when you watch people do that you're like oh my goodness like this is in my

01:04:29   DNA at this point these key commands he does prefer he does how he does prefer

01:04:34   Safari over Chrome and again this isn't through my proselytizing it he just

01:04:39   doesn't, you know, any and he totally gets it. He believes it

01:04:44   and sees it that Chrome eats his battery life and that, you know,

01:04:48   it's like his, you know, his laptop battery life is like

01:04:51   everything. Right, of course. So he does prefer Safari over

01:04:57   Chrome. So he has some of my some of my taste. But all he

01:05:01   really wants is a thing that you know, and and I think he would

01:05:04   prefer because the thing that gets that gets him and I get it,

01:05:07   I get it, is that there are, as better as the Mac has gotten with games ever since they

01:05:13   switched to Intel, where it's easier for game developers to do both.

01:05:17   What's the thing?

01:05:18   There's that service that's like Netflix for games.

01:05:20   What's it called?

01:05:21   Like Steam?

01:05:22   Steam, yeah.

01:05:24   But there are games that come out on Steam that are only available on Windows and aren't

01:05:28   available on Mac, and it bothers him.

01:05:32   But the thing that the saving grace of that is that he's way more into the PlayStation

01:05:38   four than he is PC games.

01:05:39   But maybe that's because he has a MacBook pro.

01:05:42   Maybe if he had a gaming PC, he'd be more into PC gaming.

01:05:45   I don't know.

01:05:46   But the only other, the only other thing he does is, um, the only other thing he does

01:05:51   is watch YouTube and then when, if he has homework, it's all in Google docs.

01:05:55   That's cause that's what the school runs on.

01:05:56   And so if any, if anything, he'd be better off on a Chromebook.

01:05:59   Probably.

01:06:00   that the Google Docs stuff runs better on Chrome than anywhere else.

01:06:05   Well, one reason I'm resisting getting this together is I've never used a Chromebook.

01:06:08   I mean, I think I roughly understand how it is.

01:06:10   It's a device that's made to access mostly Google services, right?

01:06:13   Isn't that kind of idea?

01:06:14   Well, anything you could do in a Chrome tab, you know?

01:06:17   Just really imagine a MacBook that was set like, you know, how like a--

01:06:21   But like Docs and Sheets and all that kind of stuff,

01:06:24   plus the browser and all of that.

01:06:25   Yeah.

01:06:27   Yeah, yeah.

01:06:27   I've been a little bit resistant, if I'm honest.

01:06:29   the part of the resistance is that I feel like I need to understand how this device works. Like,

01:06:34   for example, they gave them Microsoft gave Dan a surface to try and like we'd really joked about

01:06:39   it and like, oh, these idiots at Microsoft, they were super nice. They sent Dan the surface and he

01:06:44   kind of loves it. Like he thought it was pretty amazing. And it been a pretty good episode about

01:06:49   it where he basically was saying like, I really wish a lot of this stuff would come to the iPad.

01:06:54   And, and, but the thing is, I'm so far out of my depth on PC stuff to begin with that,

01:07:00   like I'm not even sure I would feel like I have to learn how to reuse a PC environment

01:07:04   just to feel comfortable using it. And that's the resistance I feel with the Chromebook

01:07:07   where like, it might be as easy as in you just type a couple things in, but I want to

01:07:10   understand how it works before I give it to my kid. I mean, I guess that's probably kind

01:07:13   of old fashioned, but that just seems advisable. Yeah, that's, I don't know. It's a weird world.

01:07:21   What about the iOS stuff? She uses iPad 2 or no?

01:07:24   Oh God, she's so good. She's like, it's crazy. We might've talked about, yeah, I feel like

01:07:29   we definitely talked about this a year ago because we talked about voice stuff last time,

01:07:33   right?

01:07:34   Oh yeah, that's right.

01:07:35   The way I, yeah, among other things last time is that she still, she's less so, a little

01:07:40   less so now, but up until very recently she would always prefer to click on the microphone

01:07:45   speak rather than use the keyboard, which drove me bananas. And I was like, "Just use

01:07:51   the keyboard. It's a keyboard." But she did it. She made it work. And she's in Safari

01:07:55   and she wants to find out how to make, you know, slime. And like she's able to just do

01:07:59   that. Yeah, she's great. She's super fast with it. Mostly looking at videos to some

01:08:04   extent. She does Minecraft on the iPad and does, she's very into Lego worlds on the PlayStation

01:08:11   right now. Those are her big games right now. But no, she's an ace. She gets around really

01:08:17   fast. She's like they say, I guess a digital native. Like there's nothing weird to her

01:08:21   about this device.

01:08:22   I it in my gut, I feel like in broad terms, the difference is, do you want a computer

01:08:29   that acts like a computer? Like from like what you and I think of as computers from

01:08:34   back in the day, like a Commodore 64, you know, like re to get anything done, you kind

01:08:39   I had to understand what the hell it was actually how the thing actually works, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm

01:08:43   Or are you using it more like an appliance like you're just at a higher level

01:08:47   That's exactly the way to put it and it's not they're not they have a task

01:08:51   They have a task to accomplish with this they'll put up with whatever they need to to get there

01:08:55   But they're not there for the polished user experience that we like to think that we're there for right?

01:08:59   It's like oh no, and I actually you know, Syracuse and I the rectus that came out yesterday

01:09:03   We were talking about steam and my experience using steam for the first time and he kind of took me to school on like what?

01:09:08   a huge deal Steam was, of course, because it's Sir Kusa, about what a huge deal Steam

01:09:12   was. Finally there's these games that are now available on the Mac. But I was like,

01:09:15   this app is hot garbage. Those aren't real window widgets. Somebody painted it on there

01:09:19   with like a magic marker. This looks like malware. Why would I use this? And he's like,

01:09:24   you know, and I, anyway, of course we had 45 minutes of arguing about that. But that

01:09:28   was my thing when I first opened Steam. I was like, you've got to be kidding me. What,

01:09:31   do I need to also update my flash? Like this looks like the fakest malware thing I've ever

01:09:35   I'm back. It looks like the steam app looks like it looks like the app that Tom Cruise uses to communicate with

01:09:42   the Mission Impossible team

01:09:44   I'm definitely using a computer. Yeah, Angie. Are you getting this? Yeah, it should be like beeping and worrying on every keystroke like

01:09:52   Me move by hack the encryption right

01:09:56   Typing noises typing noises typing noises and and scrolling noises right is that you know what I mean about the window?

01:10:05   widgets, the red, yellow, green. It looks like somebody used a magic marker to paint

01:10:08   those on there. It's not even from any OS that I've seen like in five years. It looks

01:10:12   totally made up. I've, I've got some part of my brain that, uh, you know, like a lizard,

01:10:19   a lizard level part of my brain that is supposed to recognize threats. Like, you know, you're

01:10:24   out in the woods picking berries, you know, 2,500 years ago and something dangerous is

01:10:30   in your eyesight and before you even know what it is you're already you know like you

01:10:35   know your hair standing on edge and the adrenaline's popping that's what happened here you just

01:10:39   you just hear a rattle yeah that's what happens to me when i see a non-native app i know i

01:10:44   know i'm like i said it's iraq you said i said it looks like swing i feel like i'm using

01:10:48   a java app from like 15 20 years ago i'm like this it looks like looks like somebody explained

01:10:53   the way a mac application should look over a bad cell phone and then they fax that to

01:10:58   to the people to put up as the app.

01:10:59   - Like I haven't even looked at how Steam works,

01:11:02   but like I wouldn't even be surprised

01:11:03   if like instead of writing its data to like,

01:11:06   you know, library slash preferences or something like that,

01:11:09   that it's just writing it to a dot folder

01:11:12   at the top level of your home directory.

01:11:14   (laughing)

01:11:15   - Like an entourage, let's put all your mail

01:11:17   in this one very large document.

01:11:19   Yeah, I mean, I don't think, again,

01:11:21   I say that not to bitch about Steam,

01:11:23   it sounds like a very good service,

01:11:24   I'm sure gamers are very happy with it.

01:11:26   But it's more to say like, you know,

01:11:27   this really does feel like a cultural distinction.

01:11:30   Something I've been talking about,

01:11:32   I feel like we've been talking about for a while,

01:11:34   like one of the reasons you don't have a Mac world anymore

01:11:36   is because, as I believe Steve said,

01:11:38   there's Mac worlds going on every day

01:11:40   at stores all over the world.

01:11:41   And the thing I keep beating on is,

01:11:43   and people would look at me quizzically the last five years,

01:11:45   but I don't think people self-identify as Apple people

01:11:48   in a significant way like they used to.

01:11:50   There was a time when we really felt like the outcasts,

01:11:52   the outsiders, the weirdos, the cool kids

01:11:54   for using Apple stuff

01:11:55   and blowing all our money on Apple stuff.

01:11:56   I don't think, when I see people on Muni

01:11:59   quitting all their apps on their iPhone,

01:12:00   I don't think they self-identify as like,

01:12:02   oh, there might be the status of I am an iPhone user,

01:12:05   but I don't think they see themselves

01:12:07   as part of this winking hipster tiny glasses

01:12:09   Helvetica tradition of using the best UX device.

01:12:13   - Right, and that you understand

01:12:15   the idiomatic grammar of the UI, right?

01:12:20   And it's just in the same way that you can instantly,

01:12:24   everybody can instantly recognize a English as a second language person through the incorrect

01:12:33   idioms they use, right?

01:12:35   It's understandable, but it's not.

01:12:36   Yeah, you get it, but you can totally see like, and that, you know, and that people

01:12:40   from certain whatever language they're coming from will make the same sort of mistakes.

01:12:46   Like somebody who learned like my friend Lee who, you know, speaks, grew up in Vietnam.

01:12:53   he makes plural mistakes because there's totally different rules for when you make things plural

01:12:58   or there are no plurals in Vietnamese or something like, you know, that would be complicated.

01:13:04   But you know what I mean? But he'll often leave off the ass and it, it, it, it, it,

01:13:09   by a dozen egg and egg and egg and egg and egg and egg. You know what I mean? And, and

01:13:15   I do, I do well. And it's a, you can hear it, especially in speakers of things like

01:13:18   Russian, right? We're like, the Russians, for example, right? Because the sentence construction

01:13:22   is, you know, you'll hear backloading and front loading of certain kinds of parts of, you know,

01:13:27   in the way that we have this, the way that the incredibly weird and complex way that we use

01:13:32   adjectives, adjectives always go in a certain order for some reason in English and no one,

01:13:37   you feel it, but you can't like identify, but you know when somebody does it wrong.

01:13:40   Yes, exactly.

01:13:42   You know, you wouldn't say something like, um, oh, I saw an angry while I saw a brown

01:13:52   wild angry dog

01:13:53   Like there's a certain way that and there's actually a wonderful book about this about the ways that there's all these little like unconscious things

01:14:00   In English being way I take I take your meeting

01:14:02   Yeah, I was just so I don't know disappointed that's a stupid word cuz I didn't even realize I was appointed I

01:14:08   Adjective I just assumed that she would want to have a Mac

01:14:13   Do I should find this for you because as the language nerd you will really appreciate this

01:14:17   Yeah, here we go adjectives in English absolutely have to be in this order opinion size age shape color origin material purpose

01:14:24   Noun so you can have a lovely little old rectangular green French silver whittling knife

01:14:31   But if you mess that word order in the slightest you'll sound like a maniac. It's an odd thing that every English speaker uses

01:14:38   That list but almost none of us could write it out and as size comes

01:14:43   - What is that book?

01:14:44   - As size comes before color,

01:14:46   green great dragons can't exist.

01:14:48   - What is that book?

01:14:50   - I don't know, I've got a--

01:14:53   - I've got an iBook.

01:14:54   - The Elements of Eloquence.

01:14:56   - That's it, it's so good and it's so well written.

01:14:59   Have you read it?

01:15:00   - No, I haven't, but I read this Guardian article

01:15:01   that I'm pasting into the show notes as we speak.

01:15:04   - Yeah, I learned about it from, I feel like, Paul Bausch

01:15:07   and it's a wonderful like idiom to idiom,

01:15:10   like he describes this certain kind of an effect

01:15:12   in Greek or whatever.

01:15:14   And then, and that leads us to this,

01:15:15   and boom, that's the next entry.

01:15:16   It's an eminently readable book.

01:15:18   It's so good, highly recommended.

01:15:20   Eloquence, what is it?

01:15:21   The elements of eloquence? - The elements of eloquence.

01:15:23   There we go, there's another gift idea for--

01:15:25   - That's a good idea.

01:15:26   - The English speaking nerd in your,

01:15:29   so anyway, in a way that you can know that,

01:15:31   I know the same thing for user interface.

01:15:33   I can absolutely positively in an instant tell

01:15:35   when an app was designed by somebody who does not,

01:15:38   was not a native Mac UI designer.

01:15:42   And in the old days, it would be like a Windows-style app.

01:15:46   - It could just be something like a super wordy dialog box.

01:15:50   You're like, "Hmm, this is your first day, isn't it?"

01:15:52   You don't put that many words in a dialog box.

01:15:54   - Or a dialog box where you see the logic of it,

01:15:58   but the order of which controls go where

01:16:00   and what size they are is like nonsensical.

01:16:03   - Or if it says cancel and retry. (laughs)

01:16:06   Yeah, yeah, no, I totally know what you mean.

01:16:08   Yeah, my brief dalliance, just as a side note,

01:16:11   My brief dalliance with PC stuff was circa 2001 when I had to do some cold fusion stuff

01:16:19   for work and I had to learn a little bit of cold fusion.

01:16:22   And it was really the only sensible way to do cold fusion was on a PC.

01:16:26   And it was so strange.

01:16:27   It was just enough to drive me crazy.

01:16:29   It was like just enough to make me feel nuts.

01:16:31   We're moving between spending 30% time on the PC and the rest of my time on a Mac made

01:16:35   me feel nuts.

01:16:36   Like where stuff was on the keyboard, how the mouse worked.

01:16:38   I got equally bad at both when I used both.

01:16:42   I didn't get better at one or the other.

01:16:44   I kept getting worse at both as I used to.

01:16:47   I just pasted into the thing there.

01:16:49   It's a recent post from the amazing Dr. Drang where he's talking about converting fractions

01:16:56   to decimal values and how he used to do it in Excel but he doesn't use Excel anymore

01:17:00   but he pasted a screenshot from Excel.

01:17:03   This is the current version of Microsoft Excel on Mac.

01:17:08   I sent it to you in iMessage. You can see.

01:17:09   - Yeah, yeah, I got it. I got it.

01:17:11   - This dialogue box is a perfect example.

01:17:13   - Oh my goodness.

01:17:15   Oh, it's got Redmond all over it.

01:17:17   - I don't know how to describe it.

01:17:21   I'll put it in the, right now, I'm gonna make it.

01:17:24   I'm gonna do the thing where right now

01:17:26   you could just look at your iPhone

01:17:28   and this will be the cover art.

01:17:30   Now I understand this dialogue box.

01:17:32   I understand everything that's going on in here.

01:17:34   I'm not confused, right?

01:17:37   - No, it looks like it was designed by an engineer.

01:17:40   Or an engineer would look at this and go,

01:17:41   what's the problem?

01:17:42   Every option you would need is available here to select.

01:17:45   And it's got three levels.

01:17:47   It's got three levels of UI.

01:17:49   You go from a tab to like a selection left rail

01:17:53   to a sub selection, big text area,

01:17:56   not text area, but selection area.

01:17:58   It's all there.

01:18:00   (laughing)

01:18:00   - Right, and then--

01:18:01   - And what this says 16th, you click on this,

01:18:02   you go to that and that and this.

01:18:03   - And there's this list of items for type

01:18:05   it doesn't take up nearly as much space as it could or should but you can see

01:18:09   why the engineer who made it did it this way because look at the scroll bar there

01:18:13   aren't any more so if you only need ten items just make it ten high regardless

01:18:18   of how it looks in the oh no why did you say that oh no now I see it oh no oh no

01:18:24   no no it did that one didn't have to be so tall in this oh no no this is very

01:18:28   troubling is that because when you go to alignment font border filler protection

01:18:32   I don't know how to gory look at the way the words the label sample doesn't line up with the label type. Oh

01:18:39   That's very upsetting. It's all very upsetting. These are the sort of the padding on the sample is not good

01:18:46   These are the sort of things that bother me, but this is a minor thing compared to yes compared to steam

01:18:50   You can get this right at this

01:18:52   It isn't like there's like a it isn't like there's a hastily drawn like octagon with a child's handwriting on it

01:19:00   that says, okay, that's what Steam feels like.

01:19:02   - So what makes me sad,

01:19:03   here's the thing that makes me sad about this,

01:19:05   is that in the old days,

01:19:06   and even today you still see it here,

01:19:08   here's like a Windows style UI on the Mac,

01:19:10   and it always makes me sad.

01:19:12   But what I see more and more today is Mac apps

01:19:16   that are written by people who clearly are iOS developers

01:19:19   and never really, the only Mac app they ever use is Xcode.

01:19:22   - Oh, interesting, interesting.

01:19:23   - And you see these iOS style apps,

01:19:26   and it kills me, 'cause there's things like,

01:19:28   you can't copy and paste like why can't I copy and paste what are you doing here

01:19:34   strange that's so strange I'm just looking at the original control panel on

01:19:40   a Mac or that they don't like one thing like an app made by I hate this I hate

01:19:47   this trend with the passion of a thousand sons is these Mac apps that run

01:19:52   not as like a Mac app with a menu bar or you know and that you can command tab to

01:19:57   like the cute ones that run in their own little menu, their own little window.

01:20:01   They run as a little widget up in the menu bar in the top right.

01:20:06   Where is this? I don't know where this lives. This is in a secret room in my house that

01:20:10   I can't find. I have to tap on the wall to know if it's there. It's so strange.

01:20:13   Right, but it's because their mindset is they don't think about apps as having a menu bar

01:20:18   and having windows that you click through. It is just like a screen. And so they just

01:20:21   make like an iPhone size app and it runs. You click on a thing in the top right and

01:20:26   it hangs down from the menu bar and there it is. I hate it.

01:20:30   Bartender. Love Bartender. Hides so many things.

01:20:34   Do you ever hear of, there's a there's a rival app to Bartender called vanilla. So

01:20:42   you know how Bartender, so Bartender, there's two utilities that do this. They

01:20:46   let you, they're great. I recommend anybody, especially if you have a laptop

01:20:49   because you, yes, I hate the apps that run in the menu bar and even though I

01:20:55   hate them I still have so many of them that that I you need them like you know

01:21:01   this is how I get to Google Photos this is how I get to back blaze this is how I

01:21:06   get to all kinds of stuff in here do you know what I miss I forget who I was

01:21:08   talking about a couple episodes ago but the thing I really missed one of the

01:21:12   things I missed the most from classic Mac OS is the control strip remember

01:21:16   that oh yeah which grab ease on it that was great and it was the it was the

01:21:19   acquit was where things like that lived and you could they'd go away you'd click

01:21:24   on it, they'd come back. It was so elegant, it looked cool, right? Oh, I missed the control

01:21:30   strip.

01:21:31   It was like a little accordion pop-out thingy?

01:21:32   Yep, exactly.

01:21:33   Yeah, you know, I miss that with Windows. More like a lot of times, because I'm an animal,

01:21:38   I'll be listening to Overcast in the web browser on my iMac, and I'll usually just, you know,

01:21:43   double-click Chrome to like make it go down to the dock. And I miss that ability to like

01:21:48   have things kind of pop up without becoming fully on screen. Do you remember what I'm

01:21:52   talking about?

01:21:53   know exactly what you're talking about. Oh, man. Vanilla. Okay, this looks pretty good.

01:21:59   It's free. Yeah, I don't know why it's free. I wish that this guy would, I wish he would

01:22:03   charge me a couple bucks for it. Thanks, Matthew Palmer. Yeah, I'll put it in the show notes.

01:22:08   Did you want to tell me about anything else you like? You know what? I would love to.

01:22:12   That's actually a, that's actually a perfect segue. Now look, I'm telling you right now

01:22:17   that it's fracture. Oh, you guys know fracture. You'd know fracture, but you also know it's

01:22:22   It's mid November and I've been telling you, I think this is the third episode in a row

01:22:26   where Fracture has been a sponsor and every single time I've told you that you should

01:22:30   already, you should pause the podcast and go order some fracture prints for your family.

01:22:37   Go do it because they're fantastic gifts.

01:22:42   Let's circle back to that because I want to talk about that.

01:22:44   You'll be praised to high.

01:22:45   You got to get the order in you guys because by fracture elves have to get to work making

01:22:50   your fracture.

01:22:51   Right?

01:22:52   handmade handmade by a happy team in Gainesville Florida but from US source materials but they get

01:22:57   backed up at some point in early December they're going to say you know what any order after this

01:23:02   date is going to be too late for for Christmas or whatever other holidays you might be celebrating

01:23:08   do it now you'll feel so much better I'm telling you this is the last one I'm telling you right

01:23:12   now I'll give you a sneak peek is this your last warning well it is for the holidays I know I

01:23:17   I happen to know for a fact that the next episode of the show the fractures not they're not sponsoring it there

01:23:22   This is the third of three in a row

01:23:24   And I think the reason why is that by by the end of November it might be too late already

01:23:28   You know, I'm telling heartbreaking heartbreaking get on it now. These are such good gifts. This is the most no-brainer

01:23:34   No-brainer gift of all time. It's so easy to do their site. Can I take over for a second?

01:23:38   Yeah, their site is so fun to use. It's almost like using flicker back in the day

01:23:43   It just feels like magic that you take a photo it goes

01:23:45   Oh, it looks like you want this kind of fraction you yeah, I totally want this should I make some more?

01:23:49   Yeah, make some more and then send that to your mom. Sorry said hi

01:23:52   I've I am a terrible gift

01:23:55   giver and and so far as that I struggle to I struggle to buy thoughtful gifts for people like my wife who I know

01:24:02   Intimately and love dearly and I cannot figure out what to get I cannot and let alone

01:24:08   people more distant

01:24:11   Fracture gifts I think are the only gift I've ever given anybody where it's like actually triggered like a tearful joy

01:24:17   Wow, right it is it, you know think about it like I don't know

01:24:21   Maybe you've got like a 10 year old kid

01:24:23   Give your you know

01:24:25   The kids grandparents your parents give them a picture of the kid from I don't know five years ago or six years ago or something

01:24:30   Like that where there's a real easy one

01:24:32   Especially if your kids don't get to see that the grandparents or family members as much as you like open up your iOS device

01:24:38   And if you're the sort of person like me who favorites photos just go into your go into your photos and look at some favorites

01:24:43   And then look at them like you're the person who might receive that fracture and think about how thrilled they would be

01:24:48   He get that little that close-up of that sweet little face. I'm telling you this thing is a great gift idea, but you are

01:24:54   This is the special, you know, I don't know if you knew this Merlin. This is our Thanksgiving spectacular

01:24:59   Not a holiday party yet

01:25:03   Party, but it's run under

01:25:07   Thanksgiving man, thanks for having me on

01:25:09   So the holidays are officially started like this is the Thanksgiving episode of

01:25:14   Of the talk show there won't will not be another episode until after Thanksgiving. I'm telling you it might be too late

01:25:20   Don't just beat the holiday rush. Don't wait until December. I'm telling you their order queue fuels up

01:25:25   Ordering a simple like Merlin said the website is a joy. You have so many selections for size

01:25:31   You could get you know, get them a big one get them a small one

01:25:33   Everything that you need comes in the package that to hang it on a wall to prop it up on a mantle or a desk

01:25:39   or whatever

01:25:41   and the picture quality is

01:25:43   Fantastic and this edge to edge thing. It's no joke

01:25:46   It makes you it makes every other way to hang a print of a photo seem outdated

01:25:51   So, where do you go go to fracture dot me?

01:25:55   fracture dot me or fracture me calm and

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01:26:21   survey. And that question is, what's your middle name? No, the question is, where'd you hear about

01:26:28   about this podcast. And you can tell them you heard about it here and it will help support

01:26:34   the show. But I'm telling you right now, don't delay, don't wait, do it right now. Just go,

01:26:39   like Merlin said, go into your favorites and just pick a bunch of them and get them printed

01:26:44   up. You'll be so thankful and you'll be like, "Thank God John Gruber reminded me to get

01:26:48   these fractured prints."

01:26:49   You saved Christmas, again. Good sponsor.

01:26:53   Oh my God, they're the best.

01:26:56   I love ours.

01:26:59   You know, a year ago, I don't know what else you want to talk about.

01:27:01   Oh, God.

01:27:02   Oh, my God.

01:27:03   I guess we've got to do it.

01:27:06   A year ago, we had a holiday party in early November, the day after election day.

01:27:14   Was it the day after?

01:27:15   Did we record on Wednesday?

01:27:16   The morning.

01:27:17   The morning after.

01:27:18   The morning after.

01:27:19   You were still celebrating.

01:27:21   I'll never forget.

01:27:23   We're gonna miss a few people.

01:27:27   Wait, what was it?

01:27:29   That was your line, "We're gonna try to get everybody, but we're gonna miss a few people."

01:27:36   We were both in a pretty bad way, and it was very fresh and very raw, and I gotta tell

01:27:45   you, you know what?

01:27:46   I'm probably stealing your thunder here, but I feel like I've done a fair number of

01:27:52   Podcast programs over the years. I feel like the

01:27:54   Reaction that I got from that has been

01:27:59   Larger and more positive than probably anything I've ever done

01:28:03   the only thing I could compare it to and it's I don't think it's a coincidence like you and I we do have a

01:28:08   we have a repartoir, but the

01:28:11   The thing we did at South by Southwest back. Oh, that was good. Yeah, that was good, but it was you know, I think

01:28:17   Not trying to make it sound like heroes or something because we basically just got up here and we're like

01:28:21   I don't know what the hell's going on, which as it happened was what pretty much everybody

01:28:25   I know was thinking that day. Yeah, but really kind of mostly for a year. That's kind of

01:28:28   mostly what it's felt like. I still don't really know what's going on. The thing that

01:28:32   got me and I know you saw it because we were interacting with the same people at Twitter,

01:28:36   but it was right around election day or the one year anniversary, you know, a week or

01:28:39   so ago, about 10 days ago, where just out of the woodwork, a slew of people on Twitter

01:28:45   were thanking us for that episode saying that not only did it help them a year ago when

01:28:48   it came out to cope with the surprising election of Donald Trump as president, but that in

01:28:55   the intervening year they've listened to that episode multiple times or that they, on the

01:28:59   one year anniversary, they listened again and enjoyed it every bit as again and felt

01:29:04   better because of it again.

01:29:06   And at, you know, this is the talk show is this show is not that a sort of evergreen

01:29:12   listen to episodes over and over again, you know, type of show.

01:29:15   is sort of a "what's going on this week" type of show, for the most part. And so to

01:29:21   hear that about an episode that we did not plan and that I was…

01:29:26   Well, and also, you know, I'm really grateful to everybody for saying that. I'm super

01:29:30   grateful to everybody for listening because it was the word that… the only word I can

01:29:34   really come up with, it wasn't fun, but it was cathartic in some ways. Where it's…

01:29:41   It's it's yeah, I don't even know what to say. It's difficult

01:29:44   Well, like I'm going through right this very second

01:29:47   It's difficult to not be able to articulate what you're feeling to have complicated feelings to know that it's not a particularly good feeling

01:29:52   But it's one nice thing about having a podcast if you have if you have the means

01:29:56   I highly recommend it get a podcast because it is an opportunity to think out loud a little bit and you may not exactly figure

01:30:01   things out but you do a rough draft of what's on your mind and

01:30:04   That that was useful and I'm really glad I had something to fill my time that morning. Oh my god. I

01:30:10   Nice responses it really was and I think people get it and

01:30:14   And we tried to emphasize at the beginning that we're not trying to get

01:30:19   political on it because I think that was so upsetting about it as opposed to

01:30:24   Just say for example like the election and re-election of George W Bush

01:30:29   15 years ago it you know what what

01:30:36   For example me I found that unpleasant, but it it did not feel

01:30:40   Like the

01:30:44   World had been ripped asunder right it felt like well

01:30:47   There are people on one side of this argument, and there are people on the other side and more people

01:30:52   Well at least in the 2004 election more people voted

01:30:57   Back to my dumb baseball analogy where I had said I felt like I it wasn't that my team lost

01:31:03   but I don't understand baseball. Sometimes when you lose an election, it's a painful

01:31:09   loss of a game, but you don't fundamentally question whether you understand how the sport

01:31:15   works. So I'm trying to figure out something smart to say or talk about on here, and I

01:31:20   don't have very much except to say that—I don't know, there's one thing I want to say

01:31:25   upfront, which is that I feel like I regret because it was very privileged of me to say,

01:31:31   but we both kind of agreed, oh,

01:31:32   everything's going to be fine probably.

01:31:34   Like we'll come out of this fine.

01:31:35   I hope you will allow us a little bit of happy talk

01:31:38   on a very difficult day to say, hey, chin up,

01:31:40   this is going to be fine.

01:31:42   But you know, the truth is it,

01:31:44   we could have even known then that it wasn't going to be

01:31:46   fine.

01:31:47   - Yeah.

01:31:48   - So I, I'm gonna say apologize, I guess.

01:31:50   I apologize if I was coming at that

01:31:52   from a privileged position.

01:31:54   It's, it's now clear to me that everything's not,

01:31:56   hasn't gone fine and won't be fine.

01:31:58   That sucks.

01:32:00   The thing that's amazing for me is, oh, and then the other thing I think nested, we didn't

01:32:04   talk about this, but, and I, you know, we're not supposed to talk about this at all, but

01:32:09   I got to tell you, John, in my mind on that day, I know this is completely irrational,

01:32:15   but I swear to God, I thought he would, for whatever reason, for any of the many reasons

01:32:21   I could come up with, I really did not think that he would be president today. I did not

01:32:26   think he'd make even six months in there. I really, there's a part of me that thought

01:32:30   this is all so going off the rails. I don't think he's going to be around even in six

01:32:34   months, let alone in four years, which obviously I was wrong about as well. Did you have some

01:32:39   part of your mind that thought that though, like this is so aberrant that it's going to

01:32:42   have to like the way you get a little splinter and your skin eventually kind of pushes it

01:32:46   out of its own accord. Didn't it kind of feel like the system would try to correct this

01:32:50   in some way?

01:32:53   Part of me thought it and then part of me thought, but he's so, uh, part, I really do

01:33:01   believe it.

01:33:02   And I really think that he suffers from a severe narcissism, mental disorder, and that

01:33:08   it's just, that's just not a recipe for, to be taken out.

01:33:11   And I, you know, it really does require, uh, I don't know.

01:33:18   I, part of me thought it would happen, but part of me, cause I really do think that he

01:33:22   he is not mentally well in a very dangerous way.

01:33:25   I really do.

01:33:26   - Just to be clear, I'm not limiting this to the,

01:33:28   what we talked about today with impeachment

01:33:30   or the 25th Amendment.

01:33:31   I just thought there's so many grenades

01:33:33   rolling around in this campaign.

01:33:35   It just seems like it's,

01:33:37   there's like 50 different reasons this shouldn't be,

01:33:40   and it seems like the system would take care of that

01:33:41   one way or another.

01:33:42   It just seemed implausible

01:33:43   that he would still be in that office.

01:33:46   - The system just wasn't ready for it.

01:33:47   It really wasn't.

01:33:52   I think I don't know if I used this last year or not or if I've used it before but

01:33:55   but the way that our system works is

01:33:58   Like like in an official basketball game like if you go to watch an NBA game

01:34:05   There's a referee and the referee there act, you know, or even like even organized

01:34:08   recreational league and there's referees and like when I used to play rec league basketball like the

01:34:13   You know each team would have to bring like 15 bucks and you pay the refs, you know

01:34:17   And and the refs if the refs say it's a foul it's a foul and that's it and there's nothing you can do about it

01:34:22   Whereas the political system is more like a pickup game of basketball

01:34:25   where there's five guys on one team and five on another and you've got to call your own fouls and

01:34:29   You know it

01:34:33   When I grew up, it's a funny thing

01:34:35   Like it's just like a difference between the suburbs in the city when I grew up playing pickup basketball in the suburbs

01:34:40   The defense called fouls and so if if you I was guarding you and you went up for a shot

01:34:47   And I know that I touched your arm. It was up to me to call the foul and if I didn't

01:34:52   You would say oh, come on. That's a foul but too bad the game goes on but that's that would be dishonorable

01:34:58   Well, it would be dishonorable and I'm gonna get my comeuppance on the other end if I do it more than twice, right?

01:35:04   And I've you know enough if I'm habitually doing it. I'm gonna stop being invited to play because we have you know you

01:35:09   You know what? I mean it

01:35:12   And in the city when I came to Philadelphia in the early 90s to go to college in the city

01:35:19   The offense calls the fouls but the logic holds and if you're the type of player who every time you get your shot blocked

01:35:25   Whether it's a foul or not you call foul. They're gonna start they're gonna start

01:35:29   You know, you're gonna get your comeuppance on the other end

01:35:33   You know, the other team is gonna start calling fouls when they get their shots blocked, too

01:35:36   You know just as you know, if you're gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. It's like mutually assured destruction

01:35:41   like

01:35:42   What happens though when there's one of the teams doesn't even want to play basketball and they just and also imagine

01:35:48   This is something that seems unique about the position that he holds right now

01:35:54   Which is that there are all kinds of safeguards in place all the way up to vice president

01:35:57   There are there are all kinds of things in like hearings and vetting and disclosures that you have to do

01:36:02   about your interests in things and there are can be very

01:36:07   severe penalties for

01:36:11   All sorts of ethical issues at every level of government except for one and there is something unique

01:36:17   I'm not a scholar on this but it's my understanding

01:36:20   That there's a lot of stuff for that never even occurred to them to say

01:36:23   Oh, yeah

01:36:23   The president has to do that too because it was just always assumed would be somebody of good good conscience who was an honorable player

01:36:28   And I don't want to listen to just bagging on the man

01:36:32   But you just kind of assumed that like it's just so crazy how much the kind of stuff that he says on Twitter

01:36:40   That not only would nobody nobody in government even at like school board level ever say on Twitter

01:36:45   But the fact that he's basically admitting to things that would get so many other people in so much trouble feel so frustrating

01:36:51   Yeah, and then to be so kind of kind of proud of this, you know, what's your word? Kaka?

01:36:57   Kaka takra see Oh Kaka Kaka stock Kaka something like that. Yeah. Anyways government by the worst people

01:37:05   Yeah

01:37:08   Fantastic word and it makes it actually sues me that that word exists and comes from the ancient

01:37:14   Greeks because it makes me think that maybe it's not unprecedented like it's certainly unprecedented in the United States

01:37:20   But you know, it's like the older I get the more I realize that

01:37:23   You know the even 200 years ago isn't that long ago, right?

01:37:28   You know what? I mean? Like you can start gaining that perspective and that you know, this sort of thing

01:37:32   Has happened before that that's the only thing that's an unprecedented is you know?

01:37:37   the nuclear shame oh yeah shame the shame of the nuclear well the worst the

01:37:43   worst-case scenario is an awful lot worse than oh then it might have been

01:37:46   back in Plato's day right maniac gets gets in charge not like calling

01:37:51   traveling right but they're doing bad people and and they're so like to see

01:37:57   that incompetent that's the part that kills me and it kills me I'm kind of

01:38:00   glad for it I just figured I figured they were just starting with the travel

01:38:03   ban that was such an interesting couple weeks because it became immediately

01:38:07   apparent that these guys were not firing on all cylinders, that they could screw

01:38:10   up a wet dream if they chose to, and that the one saving grace has

01:38:16   been just the utter lack of control, administration, and competence

01:38:20   that could have made this so much worse. You know, that's

01:38:25   the part that's a little bit mind-blowing. It's like the thing that makes it even

01:38:28   more of a grenade rolling around is you're like, "Wow, he really does think he's

01:38:32   doing a great job at this. It's really strange." The thing that I have found over

01:38:37   the past year. I've not put my head in the sand and I'm paying attention to politics

01:38:42   as much as I ever have before, but some of my very favorite people to follow on this

01:38:47   are real Republicans, conservatives who have their eyes wide open and are calling this

01:38:53   out for what it is. Two that come to mind, and I read their columns, I think they're

01:38:57   great writers, and I just find myself saying, "Yes, this is David Frum, who was formerly

01:39:06   George W. Bush's speech writer. I mean, his conservative bona fides are that he came

01:39:10   up with the axis of evil line for what, North Korea, Iran, and Iraq, Iraq, in the lead up

01:39:18   to the Iraq war. You know, I mean, it was George W. Bush's speech writer who came up

01:39:21   with this axis of evil sort of muscular, you know, you know, it, this is not a middle of

01:39:28   the road Republican, but he's totally calling this out for what it is in terms of a, their

01:39:33   incompetence and be the corruption, the outright corruption and the, uh, the, the just lying,

01:39:42   you know, the, just, just plainly lying about something that is demonstrably that you can

01:39:49   demonstrate is untrue, right? You know, like one of the interesting things of, uh, you know,

01:39:55   again, it's almost like we're smoking weed in college, but you know, the long standing debate

01:40:00   about who was the mid-century writer who got the the dystopian future right. Was it Huxley or was

01:40:07   it Orwell? And everybody was so afraid. Orwell's future seemed so much scarier, but then there were

01:40:15   a lot of good arguments to be made before the last five, ten years that Huxley was the one who

01:40:22   was more on point. And it's not one or the other, they were both brilliant, but that this

01:40:28   entertain the mat, you know, you don't have to lie and you don't have to oppress them just entertain them and they won't pay attention and

01:40:33   You know all sorts of bad things can happen

01:40:36   But to me the Trump administration has really woken up the Orwellian aspect of it

01:40:42   right, like it really literally from day one with with the the the goofy thing where there, you know, it was a sparsely attended

01:40:50   Inauguration it was a sparsely attended inauguration

01:40:55   You could look at it with your eyeballs and see. Right, photographs taken with the exact

01:41:00   same camera focal length from the exact same vantage point showing how much, you know,

01:41:08   maybe hundreds of thousands fewer people attending it. And the White House press secretary with

01:41:13   spit coming out of his mouth and his face red. That was his introduction. That was his

01:41:17   introduction. And now we know we can, it's our first sign that we're going to have to

01:41:23   confront an administration that's going to be defined by the pettiness of the lie they're

01:41:27   willing to defend. And like that's such a small, you know, you know, I don't want to

01:41:32   have this argument. You think I want to argue about how many people were standing in an

01:41:35   area? What a strange thing to be spending our time on. But the fact that he has so I,

01:41:40   you know me, I do not use double down because that has a special meaning. But to redouble

01:41:45   his efforts to prove this thing that is demonstrably untrue, even though it's completely petty

01:41:49   and unnecessary to everybody but him makes it an issue and now we're in that

01:41:53   too. Yeah that was a tough day for Sean that was a tough first day on the job.

01:41:57   He has his big boy suit on remember that? Yeah I do. My little turtle man.

01:42:04   The more he lies the smaller his head gets. I don't know but it was true. It's just

01:42:12   bizarre it just was the sort of thing and again I don't think that's political

01:42:16   You know what I mean? Like it's not political on or it's political, but it's not

01:42:19   Partisan, you know, it's it's not right, right left, right? You know what I mean? Like

01:42:25   I'm not here arguing about whether we should massively slash

01:42:29   Taxes on the rich which is a partisan

01:42:32   You know typical left-right argument or should we so many shades got so many shades to it

01:42:38   Yeah, yeah, but also like, you know, there there are people in one's own party

01:42:43   one does not particularly like or want to support.

01:42:46   Like, you know, should the party thing

01:42:47   even matter that much?

01:42:48   I mean, like, what do the people have to say?

01:42:50   What are they doing?

01:42:51   What are they accomplishing?

01:42:51   You know, but if anything, we,

01:42:53   and I see this from the people that I follow

01:42:56   on Max Temkin's political US politics Twitter list,

01:42:59   which has become a way bigger part of my life

01:43:01   than I'd like to admit, is that, you know,

01:43:03   the thing is, you gotta just not take your eye

01:43:07   off the policies.

01:43:09   That's the problem, is that there are so many ways,

01:43:11   I, you know, I don't wanna say distract us,

01:43:13   or I'm not even making that dumb case that there's only one important thing and stop

01:43:16   looking at Russia because this it's all important in its way. But like, it's, it's just so easy

01:43:22   at this point to lose track of the policy stuff that's happening. And then as against

01:43:27   as you say, what do we mean politics, partisan, like, you know, and these these words that

01:43:32   used to seem like we all kind of understood them a year or two ago, say two years ago,

01:43:37   like it means so many different things now. There's so many different tribes, it's even

01:43:41   difficult. I mean, you know, conservative and liberal, progressive, like what are the

01:43:48   words even mean anymore? It's just red and tooth and claw.

01:43:52   Yeah, I don't know. And the thing that depresses me a year in and that it's become more and

01:43:57   more clear, I guess not. It's not like I wasn't aware of this beforehand, but it it's become

01:44:04   now that he's in office and so much stuff just continues to get overlooked. It becomes

01:44:09   so obvious to me that there is a contingent in the US, a very sizable contingent that

01:44:14   largely backed Trump, who sees their number one enemy as the people on the other side

01:44:19   of the spectrum here in the US. That that's the enemy. And that the thing that keeps them

01:44:26   in favor of Trump, like the 33% who still give him a favorable rating, is that he keeps

01:44:30   doing things to piss off liberals. And if he's pissing off liberals, whatever it is,

01:44:35   good. And it to be it couldn't be more clear to me that that's

01:44:39   true. And I find that incredibly just, you know, distressing.

01:44:43   And literally, I mean, like for kids like us who grew up in the

01:44:46   70s and 80s, to have them see the Russians, well, the enemy of

01:44:52   my enemy is my friend, and my enemy is Hillary Clinton. So

01:44:54   therefore, the Russians are my friend, right? Is it's

01:44:58   startling. It's absolutely, you know, it's not like, like they're too young to remember

01:45:07   who the Russians are. You know what I mean? Like, so I got into a discussion the other

01:45:11   day about somebody posted a thing on on Twitter, where there was a screenshot of a web app

01:45:16   that they were trying to run in Mozilla. And it said, your browser is not supported. Please

01:45:20   use this, you have to use this in Chrome. And the discussion on Twitter is more or less

01:45:26   How did we come around to this didn't you know like back around 2000 when everything was like it only runs in IE and

01:45:31   We were like like a groundswell

01:45:35   movement to get like the Mozilla project off the ground and then webkit after that and and to embrace web

01:45:43   standards that all these you know to

01:45:45   Get developers on board with building using web standards to build everything so that nothing would be dependent on one single browser

01:45:52   And it worked right it worked we have it actually worked and broke the the the lock that ie had on this and

01:46:00   It's like we've circled around again

01:46:03   And now people are building things that only work in Chrome

01:46:05   And I think part of I think the explanation is that they're being built by people who are too young to remember

01:46:10   2000 right it's you know 22 year old developers who see these cool things that Chrome and Chrome only supports

01:46:16   And they're doing it because they were seven years old when when we were trying to break the ie

01:46:21   he had that word how do you pronounce the word h-e-g-e-m-o-n-e-y-m-o-n-y oh I'd usually say

01:46:30   hegemony hegemony but I'm trying to bring that married to it all right but anyway but this

01:46:35   Russian thing how can you forget who the Russians are I mean Vladimir Putin was literally the goddamn

01:46:42   KGB agent you know what I mean I don't get it except that the only way it makes sense is that

01:46:48   that whole enemy of the enemy enemy of my enemies my friend and Hillary Clinton

01:46:51   is my enemy like aren't you amazed at how many people continue to how much

01:46:57   like you turn out if you browse through Fox News how the news is about Hillary

01:47:00   Clinton's corruption and it's like dude that election literally it's over a year

01:47:04   ago it is over a year ago she lost yeah she lost and she didn't dispute it she

01:47:10   should definitely be taken out of office at this point well did you see the thing

01:47:13   I retweeted it the Jimmy Kimmel show this week had a man on the street thing

01:47:17   And I sometimes roll my eyes at those man on the street things because if you shoot enough people you're gonna find somebody

01:47:22   They went out and and on the streets of LA and we're asking people if they think Hillary Clinton should be impeached

01:47:28   Dozens and dozens of people who all said oh absolutely

01:47:34   Absolutely for the you know the crime she's committed and it she's and it's and they and like that

01:47:39   The person said so you think impeachment is an order and they're like, yeah

01:47:42   And they were like she should be removed from office and they were like, yes, definitely

01:47:45   Well, you know, there's that that old that old joke about the drunk wandering around into the street lamp

01:47:49   The cop comes up and says what are you doing? He says I'm looking for looking for my glasses

01:47:53   And he says where'd you lose him? Oh, they fell in the river yesterday. He says what are you doing here?

01:47:58   He's so the lights so much better over here

01:48:00   and you know, I think I think in some ways what you're seeing is a a

01:48:04   Nation of people who can't even at this point. Nobody can even anymore and each side feels like to

01:48:13   paraphrase will ferrell

01:48:14   It feels like you're taking crazy pills because you feel like you're seeing something that is so clear to you and you cannot believe that

01:48:19   The other side sees it

01:48:20   So even if even if she's not technically president and can't technically and be impeached

01:48:24   Isn't it obvious that she's a horrible person who needs to continue to suffer right? Right, and I think I

01:48:29   Haven't thought this out very well, but I feel like there's part of this is that there's a war

01:48:35   war a battle a

01:48:38   fight, there's a fight going on right now to decide who's allowed to decide what's true and

01:48:43   what their reasoning is for deciding that it's true. And maybe that's always been the case,

01:48:49   it's just that it's an open war at this point. There's no longer any disputing

01:48:54   that people have different ideas that are on both sides probably a little bit irrational

01:48:59   about how things are, why they're that way, and what that means. And when you see something like what's going on

01:49:06   Day to day lately it really feels like it's an attempt to redefine and this is what makes it feel. I mean I

01:49:12   personally I I'm very resistant to going into the whole like Orwell thing or the whole like Mao thing or any of that because it's

01:49:18   We should say that keep that special but on the other hand people

01:49:22   Choosing to as a group decide that this empirically

01:49:27   Provably false thing is not only true. It's importantly true

01:49:32   That's the you know, I'm saying like when everybody can look at this at this same blue triangle and call it a you know

01:49:39   A red rectangle by Fiat that that's where to me it does get a little bit scary

01:49:45   But also where it makes me try to look at myself and say like, you know

01:49:49   What are the hills that I decided to die on and didn't realize it?

01:49:51   But it's a battle for what for what is true and who's allowed to decide that that I think is really salient right now

01:49:58   Yeah, this is this is the way this is the way that we have

01:50:01   I'm not trying to name names or places here, but like like well, you know when you attack a confederate statue, you're attacking my dad

01:50:07   When you when you attack guns, you're attacking my grandfather. You're you're attacking like and whether that's true or not

01:50:14   I think that's very true. You and I've talked about baseball and family

01:50:17   there's these certain kinds of things that become and we're not even getting into the whole like don't think of an elephant thing about the

01:50:22   Country as a family but but things start to feel like an attack on your family

01:50:26   even when they're not. The fact that solar energy exists feels like an attack on your

01:50:30   family. That sounds silly to you and me, but to somebody else, solar energy might as well

01:50:35   be Hillary Clinton with her uranium. Like, you're destroying my community. This is what

01:50:40   this community does. You're destroying that. Not only are, well, I'm going to stop at this

01:50:45   point before I get myself in trouble, but the battle for not simply what we decide is

01:50:50   true, but who's allowed to decide that, I think is a big part of what we're dealing

01:50:55   with right now and it's going to get worse before it gets better. Yeah. And you mentioned

01:51:01   before and I kind of feel the same way where we had a sort of, we're going to, this is

01:51:06   f'd up and we don't know where it's going, but we're going to be okay. And I feel, I

01:51:10   feel just as bad as you do about that take. It felt like we were just being positive on

01:51:15   the day, but listening back, it didn't age well. No, it didn't mean anybody, anybody

01:51:20   who's whose parents just got removed from the country. Like, guess what? It didn't work

01:51:23   out for them. That was a real thing that happened. Yeah. Real people, you know, uh, you know,

01:51:29   and real people who are living in terror right now of what, uh, immigration and, uh, whatever

01:51:35   ice stands for. Yeah. Um, you know, I wrote on Derek fireball a couple of weeks ago that

01:51:39   they're literally a terrorist organization. I mean that sincerely. Well, there's certainly

01:51:43   using terrorist means they're, they're fighting asymmetrically. The idea of going to a hospital

01:51:46   or a church to try and find a child that you want to remove from the country is some very,

01:51:49   very dark material and doing it in a way where they they call the press they they'll call

01:51:54   the press to go and and you know so that the press is there to photograph and publicize

01:52:01   it that if you go to a hospital or the big one was you know we had a couple of hurricanes

01:52:07   this year that were not you know not good and there was an announcement very bad yeah

01:52:13   I forget if it was in Texas or Florida but one of them the sheriff made an announcement

01:52:17   that uh oh right now that there there'll be there'll be uh immigration officers uh at the

01:52:23   shelter at the shelters yeah uh again so the idea is you feel like that was in florida and then i

01:52:29   feel like in texas they expressly were trying to not say that if remember i think so you're right

01:52:36   it was a look it was on a local basis i believe right and again i i it's just incomprehensible to

01:52:42   me you know that that you what a shockingly inhumane and cruel thing to do like what a

01:52:49   position to put somebody in you know like somebody who is undocumented and maybe you know even if it's

01:52:55   just themselves and they're by themselves and they have to decide do i you know i don't feel safe in

01:52:59   my house but i feel like i might get arrested if i go to the shelter that's you know a you know a

01:53:04   certified reinforced hurricane proof facility with you know medical professionals and and stockpiles

01:53:10   of water and basic provisions. It's sick. I don't know. And again, that's not me. You know what I

01:53:18   mean? I don't have to worry about that. And that privilege absolutely fed me with more optimism

01:53:25   than I should have had. And it's not right. And I feel guilty about it. I really do.

01:53:30   You want to tell me about something you like?

01:53:38   Feel like we really brought the show. Yeah, but it's who I have

01:53:41   One of your sponsors, you know, John I gotta be honest with you buddy. I gotta tell you Christmas is coming up

01:53:47   Christmas is a hard time of year for me. I'm not a good shopper. I'm hard to shop for

01:53:52   Is there anything out there that can help me with this situation?

01:53:54   Do you know anybody with bad Wi-Fi Oh

01:53:58   Brother do I ever Oh

01:54:01   Bane of my existence you get Wi-Fi that drops out you you don't have any ability to test the speed

01:54:07   There's all kinds of ways doesn't doesn't cover the whole house

01:54:10   I've had things like extenders and amplifiers, but it hasn't felt like it

01:54:15   Blanketed. Let me tell you I get in a mesh like way my entire edifice in delicious Wi-Fi hot delicious steaming Wi-Fi

01:54:24   All right. Let me tell you about euro ee ro

01:54:27   now unlike a traditional router company that typically tries to

01:54:32   The old-style way of trying to saturate your house with Wi-Fi is to build bigger base stations and and try to pump more

01:54:39   Wi-Fi raised through the house from a base station

01:54:42   Eero

01:54:44   Takes a totally totally different strategy

01:54:46   Eero creates a mesh network where you have multiple

01:54:49   multiple devices that you spread throughout your house

01:54:52   You don't have to have a special base station one

01:54:56   The same one that serves as your main one you set it up

01:54:59   They have a little app. It's a brilliantly written simple iPhone app. You put it on your iPhone.

01:55:03   Please let me talk about that app.

01:55:05   And it just says, "Okay, this one." You give it a name. Like maybe your cable connection is in your living room.

01:55:11   You can just say "living room." My house, the main connection is in my office,

01:55:15   so it says "office." And then you connect other ones throughout your house. The app will give you instructions on

01:55:21   where best to place them. Like, if you can put them near the stairways so that there's fewer walls interfering,

01:55:28   that's even better. But the Apple guides you through it. And you carried a couple of them.

01:55:33   And you don't connect to the thing you have to keep in mind was you let's say you have three of

01:55:36   them, you have three of them in your house, you don't have three Wi Fi networks. So it's not like

01:55:41   you've created some kind of thing where now you have three Wi Fi networks. And depending on where

01:55:45   you have, you're in your house, you're connected to network A, B or C, it's just one network,

01:55:49   your devices only see one network, when you go to your Wi Fi menu and the menu bar, it only shows up

01:55:55   up as one network. But the device, this is the way the mesh network connects, it'll connect

01:55:59   intelligently to the one with the strongest signal. And it really just works. You don't

01:56:04   have to have like a networking engineering certificate to set this up. You just plug

01:56:08   them in, the app takes care of it. And they've got a new second generation hardware that

01:56:15   they came out with, I think just a couple of months ago. But the second generation hardware

01:56:20   has a third five gigahertz radio.

01:56:23   And so now it's tri-band and that makes it twice as fast

01:56:27   as its predecessor, the generation one Euro.

01:56:30   And the generation one Euro was plenty fast,

01:56:32   fastest wifi I've ever had in the house.

01:56:34   So double the speed on something that was already fast

01:56:39   is just terrific.

01:56:41   And they've added these things called Euro beacons.

01:56:44   So instead of having the full--

01:56:45   - That's the one I got, I got the beacons.

01:56:47   - The beacons are brilliant.

01:56:49   They're just little things.

01:56:50   You don't even have like a power cable.

01:56:52   They just plug into the wall like a nightlight.

01:56:56   And in fact, you can just,

01:56:58   I always imagined the meeting where they were like,

01:57:00   well, we could just plug it into the wall

01:57:02   like a nightlight.

01:57:03   And somebody at the table was like,

01:57:06   - Henderson, Henderson shoots up and he says,

01:57:07   "Wait a minute, what if we made it a nightlight?"

01:57:10   - Yeah. - Thanks, Henderson.

01:57:11   It totally works.

01:57:14   I never fall down going to the bathroom anymore.

01:57:16   It's really nice.

01:57:17   Right. So you can set it up and it can be a little nightlight.

01:57:20   And if you don't like that, you can use the app and say, turn on,

01:57:23   turn the light off. Uh, so you don't,

01:57:25   you don't have to use it as a nightlight, but if you want to, it's there.

01:57:29   Thanks to Henderson. Uh, and so you have these smaller things,

01:57:33   they're so inconspicuous and you can fit them anywhere because you don't have to

01:57:37   plug it in and run a cable.

01:57:38   It's like if you just have an outlet at like the side of the stairs or something

01:57:42   like that, it might be the perfect location.

01:57:43   You just plug it in and the beacons act as part of the mesh network to just saturate

01:57:50   your home with really strong, thorough Wi-Fi service.

01:57:57   It's really great and brilliant little devices.

01:57:59   Just go to the website and take a look at them.

01:58:02   Honest to God, I would call them Apple-esque in design.

01:58:05   They're sort of like a little white version of an Apple TV with nice round corners, very

01:58:11   inconspicuous really really about as nice of a if you can make a router look nice the

01:58:16   Eero is it can I can I say can I say a word about the app absolutely because I'm a fan

01:58:21   go look at your their text go look at that yeah so I'm one thing you can do that's really

01:58:26   really cool and there are whole other products and services that you can pick up that just

01:58:31   do this one thing that era already does which is it will show you every device on your network

01:58:36   And if you're a weirdo like me, you can go in and you can name all of your devices, whatever

01:58:42   you want, and you can give them emoji.

01:58:45   So all of my, all of my Apple or all of my TV pucks naturally have a hockey icon.

01:58:49   You got, you got max, you got the Amazon one, you got my Kindle Oasis is a little, is a

01:58:54   little book.

01:58:55   Okay.

01:58:56   That's cool enough on its own.

01:58:57   Now what's nice is it will show you what is on your network right now.

01:58:59   What has recently been on your network?

01:59:01   Why is this useful?

01:59:02   If there's something weird on there that you don't recognize, you can block it.

01:59:05   If you think that somebody's glomming onto your network in a weird way, you can just

01:59:08   block it.

01:59:09   And if it is currently connected to your network, it will show you at that moment how much bandwidth

01:59:14   that device is downloading and uploading.

01:59:17   It's so great.

01:59:20   And if you happen to have a problem, you can even look at it and it'll tell you which base

01:59:23   station it's connected to.

01:59:25   Have you done profiles yet?

01:59:26   I don't think so.

01:59:28   What's the profile?

01:59:29   There's a whole...

01:59:30   You can go out and buy products for this.

01:59:31   You can have profiles.

01:59:32   So you create a profile called, for the sake of argument,

01:59:35   Teenage Sun.

01:59:36   And the Teenage Sun profile has certain kinds of devices

01:59:40   on it and then certain kinds of rules

01:59:41   about when it's allowed to be used.

01:59:42   So if you've got yourself some little scamp

01:59:45   that likes to dash off with the Chromebook

01:59:46   and sit in a closet like an animal, you know what?

01:59:48   Maybe their wifi goes away a little bit about nine o'clock.

01:59:52   You can do that.

01:59:52   That is built in.

01:59:53   You can have some things, you have absolute control.

01:59:56   This is the MCP, that's what I'm saying.

01:59:58   - I really like this.

01:59:59   I like your emoji.

02:00:00   He sent this screenshot.

02:00:02   He's got a book, a book emoji for his Kindle.

02:00:04   He's got the scales of justice for the within scale.

02:00:08   This is really actually, I thought that I was like looking

02:00:10   at this entire Friday night doing this.

02:00:13   I was looking at it.

02:00:13   I was like, wow, my Euro app doesn't do this.

02:00:15   I didn't realize that you did the work,

02:00:17   but it is a great feature.

02:00:18   You can see all the devices on the network.

02:00:19   One of the other little things that I love about this.

02:00:21   And I know that other base stations have this feature.

02:00:24   I know it.

02:00:25   I know it's not unique to Euro,

02:00:26   but Euro makes it so easy to set up.

02:00:28   It's so easy to set up a guest network

02:00:31   because I'll tell you what, I'm a weirdo. You know what? I have,

02:00:33   even when like when friends come over,

02:00:35   but especially when it's just like people who are like lowercase F friends,

02:00:39   they want to get on the wifi. I don't like letting them on the real wifi.

02:00:42   Especially if they didn't bring anything, you know, if they didn't like bring,

02:00:45   bring beer or a casserole or something like,

02:00:47   why are you going to give them the password? I don't think so.

02:00:49   Get on the guest network.

02:00:51   We had somebody on the, we had somebody at the house, uh, a family,

02:00:55   distant family member was in and wanted to get on the wifi. Uh,

02:00:59   and it had an Android phone and I just thought, "Who knows what the hell is running on there?"

02:01:04   Like an old Android phone. It's like, "You know what? Put them on the guest network."

02:01:07   Isolated.

02:01:08   So good. This is a good product. Good product, Jon. You know what? Fantastic gift.

02:01:13   Exactly. So if you've got like a family member, I'm telling you, you got like your parents

02:01:17   have some rickety old Wi-Fi network. Buy them an Eero set up and set it up for them at Christmas.

02:01:22   It'll be so easy. I swear it. You'll be done in five minutes. It's so great. So like, for

02:01:26   For example, I'm just saying if you have an ERO already and you know how good it is, not

02:01:30   a bad gift idea for the people in your family who could use something like this.

02:01:35   And I will tell you this also with first-hand experience, if you have the first-generation

02:01:38   ERO, buying second-generation ERO material, you don't have to like start over from scratch.

02:01:44   You can just sort of add the second-generation hardware to your network and you still get

02:01:49   some of the better performance and stuff like that.

02:01:52   It's really, really great.

02:01:56   Where do you go to find out more? You go to ero.com and you get free overnight shipping

02:02:02   in the US and Canada. I'm sorry if you live elsewhere, but it's free overnight shipping

02:02:07   in the US and Canada at ero.com. When you enter the promo code, the talk show, so you

02:02:14   got to go, you got to use that promo code to get the free shipping in US or Canada.

02:02:18   It's ero.com. You'll find out more. They've got some great basic, the website will help

02:02:24   you decide just based on the size of the house or apartment you're buying for what to buy

02:02:28   and how many units and stuff like that. You don't need me to tell you that. So just go

02:02:32   to eero.com and remember that code the talk show for free shipping in the US and Canada.

02:02:37   There we go. Christmas child set you Merry Christmas, everybody.

02:02:43   Hmm.

02:02:46   What else do we got here? Oh, let's do something short and happy. How many more sponsors you

02:02:50   got?

02:02:51   That's it.

02:02:52   Well, let's do something fun and happy.

02:02:54   We can talk about your sandwich.

02:02:55   We can talk about…

02:02:56   You asked here.

02:02:57   I'll tell you this before we move off for politics.

02:02:58   You have an item here in our suggested ideas about PredictIt.org.

02:03:02   And you wrote, here's what Marlon wrote in the show notes, PredictIt.org.

02:03:05   Ever tried gambling on stuff like politics?

02:03:07   And so PredictIt.org is a site where you can put real money in there and bet on things

02:03:12   like who's going to win an election or something like that.

02:03:15   I lost a lot of money on PredictIt.org last year.

02:03:18   Oh, you did?

02:03:19   Were you listening to the Starly Kind, David Reese?

02:03:20   I'm sorry. No, no the other one the one with David and the other fellow were you listening to the

02:03:25   Where they were doing predicted on a podcast?

02:03:29   No, I was just making my own feelings, but I I forget how much money I put in to start

02:03:34   Which ones were you attracted to were you into the really like weird like flipping a coin at the Super Bowl type ones

02:03:43   We need margins. What kind of stuff you just straight-up candidates

02:03:46   Yeah, straight-up candidates and I bet I forget how many hundreds of dollars I know don't say oh don't say oh

02:03:53   But I ran it up

02:03:54   I ran up like a couple hundred dollars to start up to well over a thousand because I bet heavily against Ted Cruz

02:04:02   I bet I

02:04:04   The only one I lost a little bit on is I bet some money on Marco Rubio early

02:04:08   but the big one was I

02:04:11   early on in the Republican primary I

02:04:15   Trump was selling it around the way that this site works is is you get like a number from zero to a hundred

02:04:21   But typically it's from one to ninety nine. And so for example, let's say if you bet on

02:04:26   Hillary Clinton getting the Democratic nomination and it cost you 68 cents

02:04:34   When if she wins you get paid a dollar for every one of those shares that you it's like a stock market type thing

02:04:40   So you paid 68 cents a share for it on the pay on the presumption that she at that point

02:04:45   She had a 68 percent chance of winning if on Election Day

02:04:48   She wins you get paid a hundred you get paid a dollar for the 68 cents share you bought

02:04:52   So I bought Trump at like 18 19 percent and I bought a lot of it because I could it was I get a point

02:04:59   Where like I sold my Marco Rubio at like a small loss

02:05:02   I was like, you know what Trump's gonna beat all these guys I could see it

02:05:04   It was like I know how to drink a bottle of water

02:05:07   It's like I I just saw it. I was on board with it

02:05:11   You saw it coming

02:05:13   Yeah, I really are at least saw it as way higher in odds than 18% right and so I bought

02:05:19   I don't know like 500 shares at five or six hundred shares of Trump at 18%

02:05:23   And it eventually became worth. You know I held on to it to the very end and and you know got paid a dollar for

02:05:30   every one of them

02:05:32   And I also bought a ton of Hillary Clinton at likes to beat Bernie Sanders at like 62%

02:05:38   And I thought that it was crazy

02:05:40   I thought this was like I was like I should like I

02:05:42   Should like sell my stock and put all my money in this and I still feel that way

02:05:45   I felt like Hillary I felt like the only way Hillary Clinton wasn't gonna beat Bernie Sanders was if she had like a heart attack

02:05:50   Or something, you know

02:05:51   like if you know something medical or happened to her plane crash or something like there were there was a point where

02:05:57   And it wasn't just my opinion. It wasn't like I think Hillary Clinton should beat him. I like

02:06:02   Also the brain prions that she got from eating children at the pizza parlor

02:06:06   No, I'm talking about like just like the math of like, you know that she had already won certain primaries and right

02:06:13   You know that it wasn't like before the New Hampshire primary

02:06:16   It was like, you know

02:06:16   One-third into primary season and you could still get shares of Hillary Clinton at like 68 69 percent when the math was there that it

02:06:23   There's no way for him to perform that there was no way that he could win

02:06:27   Yeah, you know it

02:06:29   Mathematically and I know that this upsets Bernie's did upset Bernie supporters tremendously like last March April when you would tell them that

02:06:36   Because they were saying I would prefer Bernie to win and you would say well, it doesn't matter

02:06:42   Mathematically, he can't win and then they would say but I want Bernie to win

02:06:45   Yeah, and it you know, you were talking it across purposes there

02:06:51   cool I

02:06:53   I have an analogy. Ben Thompson and I have brought this up that I think, I really do

02:06:58   believe this. If I could commission a poll, I believe, I know that they call it sports

02:07:04   ball. There's a lot of people who don't like sports. And when people start talking about

02:07:07   sports that their eyes go back and I believe that there was a correlation, a very strong

02:07:13   correlation. Obviously there are exceptions on both sides, many exceptions, but I think

02:07:17   there was a strong correlation that Democrats who are sports fans supported Hillary Clinton

02:07:23   and Democrats who don't like sports and don't pay attention to sports

02:07:27   support that super interesting I never thought about

02:07:30   right and and there is a in sports there is

02:07:34   a it you can't really get a

02:07:37   I

02:07:41   was the opposite of pragmatic idealistic okay let your ideals

02:07:45   take advantage of you like let's say I

02:07:49   especially betting right well let's just say you're coaching let's say

02:07:52   that idealistically you think a starting pitcher should pitch at least five innings and your

02:07:57   starting pitcher is out there in the second inning and you're already behind 12-0. You

02:08:02   got to go out there and take them out and replace them. You're getting killed.

02:08:07   It's not his day.

02:08:10   Right. You know, this is just a loose thing. And I really do feel that part of that was

02:08:15   that the idealism, like Bernie Sanders supporters were far more idealistic than Hillary Clinton

02:08:20   Whereas Hillary Clinton supporters were pragmatic and like we should end this because the most important thing is making sure that you know

02:08:25   Either Bernie whoever wins wins the election

02:08:28   But at this point Hillary is going to win and so this is self-destructive to to keep fighting this

02:08:32   Oh in other words if the case has been otherwise that they might have said the same thing except with Bernie taking over

02:08:38   Right, and so I can imagine like so football is a good example. So imagine in a football game. There's three minutes left to play and

02:08:45   the one team is up by

02:08:48   35 points well, they're not going to win and so it's it's really in everybody's interest and in the interest of sportsmanship for it

02:08:55   You know, just just don't play it, you know, take a knee and let the clock run out the Bernie Sanders

02:08:59   People are like, well my I want to win so bad. I'm going to keep trying to tackle the other team

02:09:03   Yeah, maybe I'll get a super touchdown, right?

02:09:05   Maybe I like even think even thinking things like injury like avoiding injury like the kind of stuff where you go like boy wouldn't

02:09:10   Suck if we were up by 35 and our quarterback got a concussion, right?

02:09:13   So anyway, I made money betting on Hillary Clinton at a point

02:09:16   I put several hundred dollars in it at a point where I felt like Mathematica, you know,

02:09:19   I was really just betting that she wasn't going to die before the primary election.

02:09:23   I honestly believe that. I really do think that you could just tally up the,

02:09:28   the, you know, the, what do you call them? Delegates. Yeah, I think there might've been.

02:09:34   So anyway, I ran up, I made a ton of money on the primaries by betting on Trump,

02:09:38   by betting against Ted Cruz and betting on Hillary Clinton. So I turned like a couple

02:09:43   hundred bucks into like I don't know 1500 bucks or something like that and I just let it all

02:09:48   I let it all ride on Hillary winning the general election so I wound up with nothing like literally

02:09:56   turned like 15 or 1600 dollars into zero that's how it goes huh no that's just how it goes my

02:10:04   money I think I started with like three or four hundred dollars and like quadrupled it in the

02:10:07   primaries with those bets. Oh, did that give you confidence? Confidence? What? The winning

02:10:14   the primary? It felt like you kind of like like anything feel like you're getting some winning

02:10:19   hands. I felt like you were hot. Yeah. And I did feel I, you know, we talked about it a year ago.

02:10:27   I don't, I wouldn't say that I felt like Hillary was a lock to win the general in the way that I

02:10:32   felt she was a lock to beat Bernie Sanders in the primary. When I made that bet, I realized that it

02:10:37   it wasn't quite as much of a lock, but it felt like a pretty sure thing.

02:10:41   Hmm. I learned about this from that podcast. That's so interesting to me that you actually

02:10:47   did do this. That's hilarious. The other thing is though, that sometimes when people are

02:10:54   talking about what's going to happen with this election or what's going to happen with

02:10:59   whatever this thing is that feels really up in the air could go either way, even if it's

02:11:04   it's predicting who the next doctor is going to be, right? Who the BBC picks to be the

02:11:07   next. It's very interesting to go, especially in England, there's a lot of betting markets

02:11:11   for these things. It's sometimes at least interesting to compare what the betting markets

02:11:16   say versus what the polls say. Because the betting markets are, I mean, there's all kinds

02:11:21   of reasons for the market to make that as close to what we really know is going to happen

02:11:26   as possible. Do you know what I mean? And it's, you'll see that really in the last,

02:11:30   I guess, maybe it's always existed, but I feel like really in the run up to the election,

02:11:34   and more you would hear people saying like well this is what they're saying

02:11:36   over in this giving given a betting market yeah yeah yeah I agree with that

02:11:43   and I think that those things are interesting it was actually Paul

02:11:46   Crouppen who turned me on to these betting markets a while ago as being a

02:11:50   very accurate from his cab driver I believe yeah I think so no you're

02:11:54   thinking afraid oh sorry damn it

02:11:58   Friedman learns things from his cab drivers and which ones crewmen crew

02:12:03   the bearded guy with the economics degree he's a Nobel Prize-winning

02:12:09   economic Oh Friedman versus Krugman yeah I always knew those are two different

02:12:13   guys I knew that yeah but yeah I think that they are an accurate gauge of the

02:12:18   odds of an election the thing that I feel that the mathematical thing I found

02:12:21   frustrating with last year's election was the in the aftermath this sort of

02:12:27   see Nate Silver is a fucking idiot reaction was also silly Nate Silver I

02:12:32   I forget what he placed on the eve of election day.

02:12:35   I forget where he placed the odds,

02:12:37   but let's just say for the sake of argument

02:12:39   that he gave Hillary Clinton an 80% chance of winning,

02:12:42   which I think was around where Silver had.

02:12:44   - He had been so criticized for not being,

02:12:46   yay, rah, rah, Hillary enough in the run up.

02:12:49   - Right, right, and that there were other people

02:12:51   who were putting it way more like in the 90 some percentile

02:12:54   that she would win.

02:12:55   But let's say Nate Silver says 80% chance

02:12:57   that she will win, very likely,

02:12:59   and it turned out she didn't.

02:13:01   Well, and then there were some on the Trump side

02:13:06   who gleefully said, "See, Silver's an idiot.

02:13:08   "He doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

02:13:10   "These polls are all bullshit."

02:13:12   But if you say something has--

02:13:13   - You don't understand how probability works.

02:13:15   - Right, didn't you ever play a dice game?

02:13:17   - Yeah, there's still 10 chances out of 100.

02:13:20   There's still one chance out of 10 that it'll be this way.

02:13:22   And that chance resets every single time.

02:13:24   That's what makes it a probability.

02:13:26   - Right, like if you play a dice game

02:13:29   where Snake Eyes is a loser, it only happens once out of every 36 rolls, but it happens.

02:13:37   You know what I mean? If you say it's a one out of five chance of happening, that's actually

02:13:42   terrifying. So like in other words, like three years from now, if we're on the eve of, and

02:13:46   Trump somehow manages to still be in office, and he's on the eve of his reelection thing,

02:13:52   and Nate Silver tells me that there is a 98% chance that whoever's running against Trump

02:13:57   is going to win. I am not going to sleep the night before because I'm thinking one out

02:14:01   of 50. Oh my God, that is still too much. It's way too much running in cyber Hillary.

02:14:08   Right. Like imagine if somebody told you, you have a one in 50 chance of dying today.

02:14:13   Oh, a hundred percent. Like this is, there's God, there's so much scholarship research

02:14:18   about this, about how terrible human beings are at estimating things based on things like

02:14:23   this that like we, we cause like, you know, and also then there's the whole difference

02:14:26   of like, how likely is this to happen versus how confident are we in our bed? Do you know

02:14:33   what I mean? And we take it all to kind of be the same number, which is like 90% shit.

02:14:37   That's almost 100%. That's totally gonna happen. You're like, no, no, that's not really what

02:14:42   that means at all. It's absolutely terrifying. So like, don't play me out going for cyber

02:14:49   Hillary. Right. It was actually, he was, it was actually a feather in Silver's cap, in

02:14:54   opinion that he pegged Trump's odds is it's still a long shot or an underdog

02:15:00   maybe the long shot is too strong a word but an underdog a strong underdog to win

02:15:04   the election but had it as way more plausible than most other people and the

02:15:09   way that he won with such a narrow margin of victory in Pennsylvania

02:15:14   Wisconsin and what was the third on Michigan I think actually like it's like

02:15:19   yeah, that actually seems like, uh, like the way that, uh, uh,

02:15:23   an underdog could squeak through.

02:15:25   Well, yeah. Then in the model, that's exactly what could happen.

02:15:29   And it's what did happen, right? I think it's like,

02:15:32   I still count in votes in that. We'll remember that one little County Michigan.

02:15:34   I remember we still have it. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, hang on.

02:15:37   Just a moment, please. We still have not heard back.

02:15:40   There may be a box somewhere in Southern Michigan that changes the entire

02:15:44   evening. You're in the situation.

02:15:48   What else do you want to talk about? You want to talk? You got here?

02:15:50   Apple pay two hours and 20 minutes, dude. What are you doing? All right.

02:15:54   That's good. Well, you know, I know you like the ones where I prepare. Uh,

02:15:58   so I added a few things. Oh, well, what about this? What about this to wrap up?

02:16:02   What about this? Uh, you know, since it is our Thanksgiving holiday,

02:16:04   spectacular. What about just what we're thankful for right now? Hmm.

02:16:09   Is that too corny? I should have thought about that.

02:16:10   What am I really thankful for? You know,

02:16:12   I'm thankful that I'm not incredibly ill right now.

02:16:16   I'm thankful that my family is so tolerant of me by and large.

02:16:21   I don't know.

02:16:22   Are you reading my list?

02:16:28   It was the best Thanksgiving ever.

02:16:29   What's on yours?

02:16:31   It opens with an apology.

02:16:37   I don't know how much stronger the sentiment gets the older you get, but I, at the age

02:16:45   of 44. I'm so incredibly thankful for my health, which is something that I've lived my entire

02:16:51   life I've avoided any kind of really serious health ailments. My eye thing from a couple

02:16:57   years ago.

02:16:58   Well, you had your hand thing and your eye thing. Those are significant.

02:17:00   That's just an injury, you know what I mean? And the hand thing I fully recovered from.

02:17:06   Boy, that's... But you see people... I live in the city, just like you. And it's like,

02:17:12   what do you do when you're walking around the city? Well, I listen to podcasts and I

02:17:14   I look at people and I like to watch interesting people. I'll tell you what, I walked by a

02:17:18   restaurant yesterday, really nice restaurant. It's actually in the base of the Comcast building.

02:17:23   Nice. Yeah, right there at Cable Town. It's a place called Chops. I guess it's a steakhouse.

02:17:29   I've never been there, but it's after school. I'm walking to kindergarten school, so it's

02:17:33   like 20 after three. So there's nobody in there yet. I don't know when happy hour opens

02:17:38   there, but I'm guessing after four or something. And there's a guy who's obviously a manager

02:17:43   wearing a nice suit and he's at the bar and there's a bartender behind the bar

02:17:46   and the bartender hands him some kind of like a placemat and I'm like,

02:17:51   I wonder what's going on there. I'm walking right by the window.

02:17:53   And the manager takes it and holds it right up to his face and takes a big

02:17:59   sniff. And I realized that they're going through some sort of,

02:18:02   we have smelly placemats thing. Oh, interesting.

02:18:05   Like I told myself an entire story about what's going on in there where the

02:18:09   manager had just gone around and was looking at the place before it opened up.

02:18:12   and then had read the Bartender the Riot Act about not sufficiently hosing down these placemats.

02:18:20   And now he's testing one, sniffing it, and it just looked like such a weirdo. And he

02:18:25   clearly had no idea, wasn't thinking about the fact that anybody walking by could see

02:18:28   it. But anyway, that's what I do. I look at people and watch long enough and you see people

02:18:35   who obviously are struggling with their health. And I think, "Oh my God, thank God I don't

02:18:40   I don't have to do that for now or right now for now. Yeah. Yeah.

02:18:43   I'll say what I'm thankful for. I'm thankful for, um,

02:18:46   my parents are in good health and my dad is, uh,

02:18:50   my dad's turning 80 in December. Uh, wow. Uh,

02:18:54   my brother-in-law and I took him, uh, not last weekend, but the weekend before,

02:18:59   we actually took him, my dad liked me as a Dallas Cowboys fan and we, uh,

02:19:02   he's always wanted to see a Dallas Cowboys game at Dallas. Never been there.

02:19:06   So my brother in law took him to Dallas for a long weekend.

02:19:09   That's really nice.

02:19:11   But he's 80 years old. He's in terrific health. I think if you saw him, you'd never ever...

02:19:16   I don't know. I think you'd guess 70, maybe. Honestly, maybe even younger. I mean, he plays

02:19:20   golf almost every day when the weather permits. Walks the course. Doesn't ride around in a

02:19:26   cart like some people.

02:19:28   Like some people.

02:19:29   He doesn't get winded walking up a hill in Europe.

02:19:33   Right, exactly.

02:19:35   The sniffing is back.

02:19:38   Where's my golf course? My dad's 80 years old and could go out and eat steak and drink

02:19:45   beer with my brother-in-law and me and go to a Cowboys game. And, you know, my dad is

02:19:50   very gregarious and outgoing. And so we, you know, we get to this football game, I think

02:19:55   local time, it was a three 30 kickoff in Dallas and you know, we got there to the tailgating

02:20:01   area around two or something like that. And my dad made like 50 friends in the, oh, I

02:20:08   I love somebody like that. That's the type you don't meet as much anymore. The garrulous

02:20:13   guy. Like the get along guy. The get along guy. And we just had a great time. And I just

02:20:19   think like, you know, how many people out there, you know, you know, I know, you know,

02:20:23   firsthand I know so many, you know, what a privilege it is that at 80, you know, me at

02:20:27   44 and my dad at 80 that we could still do something like that. Very thankful. I truly

02:20:32   am. Did they, there's no, did the Cowboys win? No explanation. Cowboys win. The Cowboys

02:20:35   did win. Cowboys did win. That turned out all right. Yeah, it turned out all right.

02:20:42   I'll tell you what was nice too. I tell you, and I appreciate this as a Philadelphia fan.

02:20:45   The other thing that was nice is they were playing the Kansas City Chiefs and Kansas

02:20:47   City is about 500 miles away from Dallas and there were plenty of Kansas City fans there.

02:20:52   I don't know if it was 20% of the people, but somewhere between 10 to 20% of the people

02:20:56   there were in Kansas City stuff and everything in the parking lot and in the stadium and

02:21:01   everything was all in good fun and good spirits. That's nice. Yeah. Oh, that is, that is,

02:21:05   Is so nice I mean that that would not happen in Philadelphia

02:21:10   Don't you guys throw batteries at people isn't that kind of your jam they used to know they used to throw batteries

02:21:15   But they don't that that's that was a long time ago

02:21:17   No, they throw coupons for uber

02:21:20   They've calm things down. Yeah, that's I think I think what's happened

02:21:24   Is that the ticket prices have gone up so much that it's priced the you can afford to throw batteries be too costly

02:21:30   Yeah, yeah, and it's just sort of priced that crowd out of it like the

02:21:34   to the battery people.

02:21:36   Right, the sort of sociopathic hooligan crowd who thinks, "Let's go to an Eagles game. We can throw batteries at strangers."

02:21:43   [laughter]

02:21:45   I remember, I feel like there were some white-knuckle moments for the Reds at certain times.

02:21:49   Pete Rose might be over on the hot corner and take a 9-volt to the back of the neck.

02:21:53   [laughter]

02:21:55   Anything else?

02:22:01   No.

02:22:01   Merry Happy

02:22:02   Thanks giving time. Yeah, likewise to you

02:22:06   I mean, you know and to everybody back in a year and you know, see where things are

02:22:10   Do you think you think Trump is gonna be an office in a year you think when we do our Thanksgiving spectacular?

02:22:15   You know, I got this bet wrong before

02:22:17   All right, but let's see what predicted says

02:22:21   You know

02:22:23   It's it's it's an overused quote, but it's so true. Is that Hemingway line about? How did you go bankrupt and it was?

02:22:31   Slowly. Oh, it's really at first you're right, right. Yeah, and then and I feel like that's house

02:22:37   You know, he will quit as soon as it is really obvious to him. There's no way that he would like go down

02:22:45   Don't you think I don't think no he'd say I got a TV show. I got a better deal. I won the deal

02:22:49   Yeah, okay. So here's what we got

02:22:51   This is this is just science. This is not politics. This is science

02:22:54   Will Trump be president at year end?

02:22:58   2017 the current market is 95%

02:23:00   Yes, 5% No, I mean for a variety of reasons that makes a lot of sense with no change

02:23:05   It's not a very active, but it is the one that a lot of people have bet on

02:23:09   You know, that's actually crazy. If you think about it

02:23:12   That's still you know it

02:23:14   Middle it was so we've got six weeks to go in the year that that you can get 5% odds that some plants

02:23:20   You can buy and sell anytime you want now

02:23:23   let's look at go down a little bit will Trump be president at year end 2018 yes

02:23:30   at 68 cents no at 32 cents hmm I think I'm gonna get back into this because I'm

02:23:37   looking money be made in here my friend 2020 presidential winner you can buy you

02:23:42   can buy no on Trump for 65 cents hmm boy that's 65 cents to buy a no Wow hmm that

02:23:52   That seems like good, bad.

02:23:54   I gotta get back in.

02:23:55   We gotta end this show.

02:23:56   I gotta get back in.

02:23:57   Get over it.

02:23:58   Get to predicted.

02:23:59   Thanks for having me on, buddy.

02:24:01   Merlin, it's always, always a pleasure.