The Talk Show

201: ‘Much More Smarter’ With Matthew Panzarino


00:00:00   So we spent pretty much the whole beginning of the week together.

00:00:04   And it started, we had a wonderful dinner on Monday night with our mutual friend Michael

00:00:10   Lop, where you two wanted to talk entirely about Destiny 2, but all I wanted to talk

00:00:17   about is how is Apple going to pronounce the X in the name iPhone X, because the name had

00:00:21   leaked.

00:00:23   The name had leaked, and we had one and only one reason why they might call it iPhone X,

00:00:29   which was that we're 10 years away from the original iPhone.

00:00:32   And we came up with a list of like 15 good reasons

00:00:35   why they would pronounce it iPhone X.

00:00:40   And we just left the dinner like,

00:00:41   well, that's a settled deal.

00:00:43   It'll be iPhone X.

00:00:45   And then I stayed in the city, could not get a hotel.

00:00:49   It's bizarre that I could not get a hotel near Cupertino.

00:00:54   So I just stayed in the city and you swung by kindly

00:00:56   and picked me up the morning of the event.

00:00:58   and we drove down and as we're driving

00:01:00   from San Francisco to Cupertino,

00:01:02   I said, "You know what, I'm gonna write that up."

00:01:05   And right there in the front seat of Matthew's car,

00:01:08   I wrote the article I headlined X-Man,

00:01:12   explaining exactly and predicting,

00:01:16   only an hour before the event,

00:01:17   hour, two hours before the event,

00:01:18   exactly why I thought they were gonna call it iPhone X.

00:01:21   (laughing)

00:01:23   Well, it turned out--

00:01:25   - And you know, I was there to be the voice of reason

00:01:28   And I just didn't speak up.

00:01:29   (laughs)

00:01:30   Honestly, I bought in though.

00:01:31   I bought into your reasoning.

00:01:32   - No, we were all convinced.

00:01:35   I was the one who started Dinner Convinced

00:01:37   and you and Michael were both like,

00:01:39   I could see it both ways.

00:01:40   And by the end of it,

00:01:41   and half of the reasons I came up with,

00:01:43   I stole from you and Michael.

00:01:44   (laughs)

00:01:45   Like it wasn't just even my reasons.

00:01:47   Like, I'll take the heat for it,

00:01:49   but quite frankly, it should have been like--

00:01:51   - Crowd sourced.

00:01:52   - It should have been a three byline article.

00:01:54   Me, you and Michael Lop.

00:01:56   eating prime rib, deciding it was ugly.

00:02:00   - Oh my God, now I'm hungry.

00:02:02   Yeah, I still am fine with it.

00:02:05   I'm fine with the logic behind the reasons.

00:02:09   But I think in the end,

00:02:10   I told somebody this the other day about something different.

00:02:13   It was something, some of the decision that Apple had made

00:02:16   or was going to make or whatever.

00:02:17   I said, you know, in the end,

00:02:19   there can be like lots of logical reasons

00:02:21   why X or Y or Z would be the choice that they would make,

00:02:26   But when it boils down to it, if you go back,

00:02:30   write up a scorecard of all the decisions they've ever made

00:02:33   and all of the things, all of the pre-thinking

00:02:36   that everybody put into, oh, what will they do?

00:02:37   What will they do?

00:02:38   In the end, they typically do the most,

00:02:40   absolutely the most obvious thing.

00:02:43   The most obvious thing is the thing that they do

00:02:45   because they're working at such enormous scale.

00:02:48   That's what makes sense typically.

00:02:50   So iPhone X, just, yeah, the other one was iPhone 8.

00:02:53   Why wouldn't we call this iPhone X?

00:02:55   That's just like logical.

00:02:57   - So I will say this, I ran into Phil Schiller

00:02:59   after the event and the first thing he said to me was,

00:03:03   "Hey John, sorry about the 10 thing."

00:03:06   (laughing)

00:03:09   Which blew my mind because I literally published it

00:03:12   like 90 minutes before the thing.

00:03:14   So how could he possibly have been aware of it?

00:03:17   'Cause you'd think he would be like in like

00:03:19   concentration mode.

00:03:20   - A little busy, you would think.

00:03:23   - And he laughed and I laughed.

00:03:24   And then all he said was,

00:03:26   "We spent a lot of time on the name."

00:03:27   (laughing)

00:03:30   - And ended up back at one.

00:03:32   - Right, I think you're exactly right.

00:03:34   I feel like they probably did spend a lot of time

00:03:37   and they ended up at the most obvious thing possible.

00:03:40   - Yeah.

00:03:42   - So the other--

00:03:42   - It was pretty good.

00:03:44   So yeah, you published it and we go,

00:03:45   we're so harried.

00:03:46   I mean, you and I are harried.

00:03:48   - Right, right.

00:03:49   - Trying to find the place and get in,

00:03:51   'cause it's brand new.

00:03:53   We're running into a literal blockade

00:03:55   'cause they had blocked an entire street off.

00:03:57   And I got a rash of crap from Apple people

00:04:02   about using Waze instead of Apple Maps

00:04:04   'cause they said that Apple Maps

00:04:05   would have directed me appropriately.

00:04:08   - This is too good of a story.

00:04:09   So we've plugged the address in.

00:04:12   And you and I both, when you get an invitation

00:04:15   to one of these events, somebody in Apple PR emails you.

00:04:20   There's somebody who's like your point person

00:04:23   and your, hey, if you have any questions,

00:04:25   contact me person, and it varies by event,

00:04:28   but that way everybody's taken care of,

00:04:29   and there's tons, I don't know how many people,

00:04:32   there are in Apple PR, but there's,

00:04:33   it's, you know, a pretty large group.

00:04:35   And you and I both had emails that seemed to imply

00:04:41   an unusual amount of familiarity.

00:04:43   It was just like, hey, we'll see you there.

00:04:46   You've got briefings the next day after the event,

00:04:50   or after the event at 11.15,

00:04:53   and we'll meet you at the cafe.

00:04:55   And it's like, well, where's the cafe?

00:04:57   - Oh yes, the cafe, got it.

00:04:59   - I have no idea.

00:05:00   It just implied an unusual amount of familiarity

00:05:03   with a campus that we obviously have no familiarity with,

00:05:06   but they did give us a street address,

00:05:08   and you plugged it into Waze, and we're going there,

00:05:11   and like you said, literally they had the street closed.

00:05:17   And it was obvious that it was Apple people

00:05:20   who had closed it, they're there manning it.

00:05:22   And we're looking at the--

00:05:23   - It was a mixture of people,

00:05:24   but some of them were definitely wearing that like,

00:05:27   white shirt, black pant, Apple security,

00:05:30   traffic control uniform.

00:05:32   - And from within the car, we gave like a,

00:05:34   "Hey, what do we do?"

00:05:36   And there was a woman who gave us sort of a,

00:05:38   "You can either go left or right."

00:05:39   And so we made a right, and next thing you know,

00:05:42   we're like--

00:05:43   - It was like, it was the "Wildly Coyote" thing.

00:05:44   like the two arms crossed pointing either direction,

00:05:49   like Alice in Wonderland, gesture cat, you can go this way.

00:05:53   So we made a choice.

00:05:55   - And we ended up behind, it was not the main building,

00:05:59   it's some of these peripheral buildings

00:06:02   that it's obviously part of the campus,

00:06:03   obviously new construction,

00:06:05   and the ones we were behind were obviously unfinished.

00:06:08   It was these buildings that run finished.

00:06:09   There was a garage back there,

00:06:11   But we were 100% certain that this is not

00:06:14   where we were supposed to go.

00:06:16   And so we both made some text, placed some text

00:06:18   to PR people, like, hey, what are we supposed to do?

00:06:22   So we got a call from Apple PR, and they were like,

00:06:26   you gotta go around the block.

00:06:28   And they were like, what are you using, Google Maps?

00:06:30   And I thought it was a joke from Apple.

00:06:32   I thought it was like, oh, that's just the type of joke

00:06:35   Apple would make. - Like, aha,

00:06:36   yeah, what are you using, Google Maps, get real.

00:06:38   - Yeah, but the truth is that Apple had seeded,

00:06:43   I guess in some way, Apple Maps,

00:06:45   with where if you plugged the address that they gave us in,

00:06:49   it was like 10600 Tantal Drive,

00:06:52   it would give you the exact right directions to get there.

00:06:55   And Google Maps literally led you right into the blockade.

00:07:00   So it really was the truth.

00:07:02   And it kind of reveals the thinking at Apple

00:07:04   where they're so on, you know,

00:07:08   it just didn't even occur to them

00:07:10   that people wouldn't be using Apple Maps.

00:07:13   - Right, right.

00:07:14   Like why are you lost?

00:07:16   Obviously you're using our first party mapping application

00:07:19   we spent billions of dollars to develop.

00:07:21   I mean why wouldn't you?

00:07:22   - Right, and that we literally spent time

00:07:24   before the event like routing people around it.

00:07:27   'Cause you and I went back the next day

00:07:29   and the next day even Apple Maps led us that way.

00:07:32   Like they literally seemingly on the day of the event,

00:07:35   they changed Apple Maps driving directions

00:07:37   to get you around the street blockade

00:07:39   that they set up for one day.

00:07:40   - To make sure everybody ended up on the right side

00:07:42   of the blockade to get directions

00:07:43   and park appropriately and all that, which was fine.

00:07:45   We literally had to go around Apple Park.

00:07:47   We drove around the perimeter of Apple Park

00:07:49   and ended up in the right spot.

00:07:51   But it was just one of those things where you go,

00:07:53   oh yeah, they make the map.

00:07:54   They can just make the map point wherever they want.

00:07:56   - Right, so literally instead of like sending us

00:07:59   those explicit directions in the email,

00:08:01   they just presumed that we'd be using Apple Maps

00:08:04   and they just put it into Apple Maps,

00:08:05   which I found incredibly amusing.

00:08:08   - Yeah, and I just got razzed by it the entire day,

00:08:14   'cause apparently they shared the information with everybody.

00:08:19   The person I texted shared it with the whole PR team

00:08:22   and everybody was very aware that I was using

00:08:24   a Google product to try and navigate my way to Apple Park.

00:08:28   - Right, every single person at Apple PR

00:08:30   who came up to you the rest of the day was like,

00:08:32   what's wrong with you, why do you use Google Maps?

00:08:35   (laughing)

00:08:36   - I'm sure we're right up the chain.

00:08:38   - Right, their back channel must be, is quite efficient.

00:08:42   - Right, yep.

00:08:46   - All right, so we do get there.

00:08:49   And it's effectively where they wanted us to park

00:08:53   was at the new visitor center.

00:08:54   And the visitor center is across a street

00:08:57   from the block where the main building is, the ring.

00:09:02   And the Steve Jobs Theater is also across that same street,

00:09:07   but it is wholly separate.

00:09:10   I mean, it's quite a distance from the main building.

00:09:14   So-- - Yeah, the Steve Jobs Theater

00:09:16   is inside the fence of the compound.

00:09:21   - Right. - You know, where Apple,

00:09:22   it's in Apple Park, right?

00:09:24   If you wanna call Apple Park

00:09:25   the literal park land that they built.

00:09:27   And then the visitor center is across a small,

00:09:31   but street that separates that park

00:09:35   from ancillary buildings.

00:09:37   - Right.

00:09:38   So it's fundamentally a different layout

00:09:44   than Infinite Loop was, where there's now a store

00:09:48   at Infinite Loop.

00:09:49   There was always sort of a company store,

00:09:51   but it wasn't really, it was different than the Apple store,

00:09:53   but now it's like a real Apple store.

00:09:55   But the Apple store-- - That Apple park, right.

00:09:58   - Well, no, but the old campus at Infinite Loop,

00:10:00   the store is literally in-- - Oh, right, yes.

00:10:03   The company store, right.

00:10:04   - Yeah, it's in and always was in one of the buildings.

00:10:08   Like if you went to Infinite Loop,

00:10:10   the old campus, you wanted to see it,

00:10:12   you were there in a building.

00:10:14   I mean, obviously, there's no back door of the store

00:10:17   where you could go into a secure area.

00:10:19   It's only like from the sidewalk,

00:10:21   It's like parking lot sidewalk, now you're in the store.

00:10:24   But you were fundamentally in a building full of,

00:10:27   where there were Apple employees above you

00:10:29   secretly working on Apple stuff.

00:10:31   Whereas now the visitor center is, it's contained.

00:10:36   - It's separated by an asphalt moat

00:10:39   from anywhere that work is being done.

00:10:41   - Right, there is no chance of contamination.

00:10:44   And even with the press--

00:10:46   - I wonder if they'll close the other one.

00:10:48   I wonder if they'll close the other store.

00:10:49   - I don't know, that's a very good question.

00:10:51   I would guess that they will.

00:10:53   - 'Cause this store is nice, it's a broad open layout

00:10:56   with the tall glass walls, just like a new Design Apple store

00:11:01   and the other one is not, you know,

00:11:02   they kind of updated it recently, but not,

00:11:04   it's not a crazy update.

00:11:05   - Yeah, I think that they probably will, right?

00:11:07   But maybe they'll keep 'em both open for a bit,

00:11:10   but I would guess that they'll close the other one

00:11:12   and sort of, it's a good question,

00:11:17   'Cause they're obviously, Infinite Loop is staying occupied.

00:11:20   They need all of the space.

00:11:22   - Oh yeah.

00:11:24   Yeah, they're already full, yeah.

00:11:26   - They're not moving from Infinite Loop to Apple Park.

00:11:30   They're just sort of like,

00:11:31   they're like bulged into their current office space

00:11:35   and they're just sort of like, let out the excess.

00:11:37   - Doubling up on desks and stuff, yeah.

00:11:40   - I would guess that they will close the store

00:11:42   at Infinite Loop.

00:11:43   I don't know though, that's a good question.

00:11:46   - It's definitely, and even with the press too.

00:11:49   So it's A, just the random riffraff who want to pay homage

00:11:53   and come to Apple's headquarters and buy some T-shirts.

00:11:56   You are not really in the real building now.

00:12:01   It is an entirely self-contained building,

00:12:03   like you said, across an asphalt moat.

00:12:05   And even the theater, even the press,

00:12:07   are no longer like in the compound.

00:12:11   Like you can't complain about the theater.

00:12:14   And we can talk about it in detail.

00:12:15   The theater is exquisite and it is nice,

00:12:18   but it is absolutely, positively not

00:12:21   you know, near the main building.

00:12:25   - No, it's the standing at the theater

00:12:28   and looking towards the main building

00:12:30   is the equivalent of looking across

00:12:33   probably a football field's worth of grass and rolling.

00:12:38   - I would say even--

00:12:39   - Or just freshly seeded grass.

00:12:41   - I would say--

00:12:42   - Yeah, probably a couple of football fields, right?

00:12:43   - Yeah, I think it's like a par four, yeah.

00:12:45   It's at least like three or four hundred yards.

00:12:48   - Right, it is.

00:12:50   And it's still massive at that distance,

00:12:52   which says something about the scale of the building.

00:12:54   - Yeah, and it is true, like the way that we drove in

00:12:57   where we got turned around at this blockade

00:12:59   and had to go around, effectively what we had to do

00:13:01   is drive all the way around the Apple Park,

00:13:04   all the way around.

00:13:06   And the Vantage, you know it's a big building.

00:13:11   Everybody knows it's a big building,

00:13:12   But it's really kind of stunning driving right by it,

00:13:17   just how massive it is.

00:13:18   It really, it's just,

00:13:21   whether you like the way it looks or not,

00:13:24   it's truly magnificent in terms of just the scale of it.

00:13:28   - Right, and I think we're used to seeing

00:13:31   a lot of buildings that are vertical,

00:13:33   especially in the city, right?

00:13:35   So you're next to a big building in New York

00:13:38   or even downtown San Francisco or whatever,

00:13:41   and you look straight up and you're like,

00:13:42   "Wow, look at that, it's a skyscraper, it's really tall."

00:13:45   I mean, Seals Force Tower in San Francisco is enormous,

00:13:47   it dominates the skyline now.

00:13:49   But this is a different kind of scale

00:13:52   because it's so broad and massive.

00:13:55   It's just like, there's a lot of mass there,

00:13:57   it's very broad, and something with a circular nature of it

00:14:00   when you're up next to it, like when we're driving next to it

00:14:03   and looking to our left at a point at which

00:14:05   it was fairly close to the street, you know,

00:14:09   'cause it kind of grazes the street

00:14:10   on a couple of dimensions.

00:14:12   and when you look that way, it curves away into the distance

00:14:15   like it's heading towards the horizon.

00:14:17   - Right.

00:14:18   - The curve almost gives you a greater sense of size

00:14:22   and scale than if it's a squared off corner.

00:14:25   You're like, oh, that's where it ends.

00:14:26   - Yeah.

00:14:27   - There's literally no end in sight.

00:14:28   - I don't know what to compare it to

00:14:30   'cause I've never seen a building,

00:14:32   I've never seen anything like it.

00:14:34   I really haven't.

00:14:34   I've seen many towers.

00:14:35   - It's kind of like Epcot.

00:14:37   Like when you get close to Epcot maybe

00:14:39   or something like that, one of those types of buildings

00:14:41   where it's a themed building that's built specifically

00:14:44   to be massive.

00:14:45   - I don't know, it's just so, it really seems almost,

00:14:48   it's so, I've thought of this before,

00:14:51   but now having seen it in person, it is,

00:14:55   it's so funny that the old campus was named Infinite Loop,

00:14:59   which is a programming pun, but my God,

00:15:02   would Infinite Loop be a better,

00:15:04   a perfect name for that building.

00:15:06   - Right, it's a literal infinite loop.

00:15:09   - When you're looking at it at Street View,

00:15:10   up against it. It really seems as though it just is infinite. Like you said, it just goes off into

00:15:16   the horizon. It's like you can't even see where it ends. It's truly magnificent.

00:15:21   And that's as close as we got to the main building. I mean, that's as close as anybody

00:15:27   was able to get is outside the fence looking towards it. You know, the theater, obviously,

00:15:32   quite a bit further away even. So that's as close as we got to see it, but it was pretty big.

00:15:36   Yeah, in recent years, and I do think it correlates directly, I'm like 99% sure it correlates

00:15:45   directly to the Katie Cotton era and the Steve Dowling era of Apple PR, where in the Katie

00:15:53   Cotton era, when we had events at town hall at the old campus, you came in the front door,

00:16:00   and then you went out the front door.

00:16:03   And that was it.

00:16:04   So you got to park in the Apple parking lot

00:16:07   and you got to walk on an Apple sidewalk

00:16:10   and you came in a door and there was a lobby

00:16:12   and you'd go in and even if you had briefings or something,

00:16:16   if you had meetings after the event,

00:16:17   you were in the same building

00:16:19   and you just went up the stairs.

00:16:20   And then the only door that you could leave by

00:16:22   was the one that put you back on the sidewalk,

00:16:25   back in the parking lot.

00:16:26   And in the last, I don't know, three years or so

00:16:30   when they've had events at town hall,

00:16:31   they've let us in the main entrance.

00:16:34   I forget which building it is,

00:16:37   but instead of going in the building where Town Hall is,

00:16:39   they let us in a nicer building,

00:16:41   and then you can walk through the courtyard

00:16:44   in the middle of the campus,

00:16:45   and they'd have some food and coffee outdoors.

00:16:51   It was a nicer spread,

00:16:53   and you felt like you were actually inside.

00:16:56   But every step of the way,

00:16:57   there were T-shirted Apple employees.

00:17:01   It did feel more hospitable, but it was also very clear that every step of the way, I mean

00:17:08   literally like every 10 feet, there was an Apple employee to make sure nobody wandered

00:17:12   off.

00:17:13   Right, right.

00:17:14   Even though the buildings are access controlled, there's a first line of defense.

00:17:19   Right.

00:17:20   Just to make sure nobody even accidentally wanders off the path that was laid out for

00:17:25   the outsiders to go from A to B. There will be none of that at the Apple park.

00:17:31   (laughing)

00:17:33   - The line of people in Apple Park that were there

00:17:42   to do roughly the same thing,

00:17:44   keep people moving and make sure they didn't wander off

00:17:47   into the, literally the woods where 9,000 trees

00:17:49   or whatever are planted.

00:17:51   But they were there maybe every 10 to 15 feet

00:17:56   and they were very aggressive about saying hello

00:18:00   and hoping you had a good day,

00:18:02   and how are you enjoying everything?

00:18:04   But literally every single person was doing it.

00:18:07   After a while, it's a little bit like,

00:18:08   okay, oh, we're doing this again, okay, good.

00:18:11   So I just started to go on the offense,

00:18:13   and I would just preemptively,

00:18:14   right before I crossed the threshold of attention,

00:18:17   I would say, hey, how are you doing?

00:18:21   And they were a little thrown off their script

00:18:22   because they were, oh, fine, yeah.

00:18:25   I was like, please leave me, it's like a mace.

00:18:28   They're gonna mace them with kindness.

00:18:30   - So the Steve Jobs Theater itself is truly magnificent.

00:18:37   I don't have enough superlatives for at least aesthetically

00:18:42   how pleasing a building it is, how striking it is.

00:18:46   I guess I knew this.

00:18:48   I mean, there's renderings of it, but then you see it.

00:18:51   And I realized that carbon fiber is a lightweight material.

00:18:55   That's what makes it so interesting.

00:18:57   and this is like the largest carbon fiber roof

00:19:00   of any building in the world apparently.

00:19:03   But the lobby of the theater is a circular pavilion,

00:19:09   for lack of a better word, enclosed in glass

00:19:12   with a carbon fiber roof,

00:19:14   and there's literally no columns supporting the roof.

00:19:19   It's wholly supported by the glass walls.

00:19:22   And when you realize, I didn't really,

00:19:26   It wasn't as striking when we got there in the morning,

00:19:28   'cause we got there around 8.30,

00:19:30   it was like an hour and a half before the event,

00:19:32   and it was already jam-packed.

00:19:34   Like, you know, there were hundreds of people

00:19:36   who were already there.

00:19:38   And when you're in a room filled with people,

00:19:41   and there were people outside it on the sidewalk,

00:19:44   'cause that's where they had the food and coffee,

00:19:46   when you're surrounded by that many people,

00:19:47   you see the people.

00:19:48   And it was only when we left in the afternoon,

00:19:51   after most of it was cleared out,

00:19:53   and I took a really cool photo

00:19:55   where there weren't even any people in the sight line

00:19:58   of the camera anymore.

00:20:00   When it was mostly empty is really when it was striking,

00:20:02   like, holy hell, what is holding this roof up?

00:20:07   It's, architecturally and engineering-wise, it is a marvel.

00:20:12   - Yeah, when you're standing in the building,

00:20:15   especially when you walk right in the doors

00:20:17   and nobody's in there or come up the stairs

00:20:20   and nobody's in there, the feeling of openness

00:20:22   and outside in, obviously, was the whole point of it.

00:20:27   It really is impactful.

00:20:29   And the only thing that obstructs your sight line

00:20:32   in any direction, because there are no physical supports

00:20:34   beyond the glass itself, is the elevator.

00:20:37   And that comes up out of the floor.

00:20:39   But even the stairwells, there's only a slight wedge,

00:20:44   and then they just sink into the ground.

00:20:46   There's not like a big boxy, oh, here a stairwell begins.

00:20:51   they're cut into the ground, so to speak.

00:20:53   So it's quite interesting.

00:20:54   - Yeah, somebody commenting on my photo said,

00:20:56   it looks like the lair of a Bond villain.

00:20:59   And it truly does.

00:21:02   I mean, it's, and the stairs really do,

00:21:05   it was sort of like when I first got there,

00:21:06   I was like, where the hell are the stairs?

00:21:08   I didn't even, I couldn't even tell where they were.

00:21:11   It's sort of, it's freaky almost, I don't know.

00:21:16   - Yeah, and it's one of those buildings where,

00:21:20   and I like architecture a little bit

00:21:22   and pay attention to it when I can, when I'm traveling.

00:21:25   And it's one of those buildings that you look at

00:21:26   and you go, you know what,

00:21:27   somebody's definitely gonna use this in a movie, right?

00:21:30   But Apple's not the kind of company,

00:21:32   they don't need people to use it in movies,

00:21:34   so it probably will not get used in a movie,

00:21:36   but it's one of those pieces of architecture

00:21:39   where you go, oh wow, some site researcher

00:21:44   would love this place.

00:21:46   You'd be like, oh, we could shoot a scene here.

00:21:48   And yeah, it could definitely like slot into a Bond film like, oh, this is the entrance to the lair.

00:21:52   Yeah. So we, you know, it gets the time, you know, the word spreads that they're letting people in,

00:22:00   it's time to go. You descend the staircase. The handrails to the staircase are literally carved

00:22:08   out of the walls. It is, it feels like it's carved out of stone. It's not stone. It's some kind of

00:22:16   artificial, I forget the name of it. I found out the name of it, but it's, it's the same surface

00:22:21   that's like an expensive kitchen countertop surface, surface. But the effect of having them

00:22:27   carved out of the wall, it feels like you're in that, that temple in the Indiana Jones and the

00:22:33   last crusade, you know, that's carved into the mountain. It really feels like the theater is

00:22:38   carved into the ground. Not that it is an underground theater, but that it's carved out of,

00:22:45   you know, a massive block of marble or something that was on the site for millennia. It really is

00:22:52   the effect that you get. And it's funny, like I've had a bunch of questions about the hidden

00:23:00   hands-on area where people are like they don't understand. They don't understand what we're

00:23:06   saying when we say that there's this retractable door, but it doesn't look like something is hidden.

00:23:12   It just looks like that's the way it's supposed to be when we went in and then when the show was over and we went back

00:23:17   the wall was gone and

00:23:19   There's the hands-on area but the bet the best expert, you know, excellent visual explanation

00:23:25   I can think of is is Dan Fromer's photo essay at

00:23:28   At recode he had before and after shots that I think show it about as well as it can be shown

00:23:33   So I will put a link to the show notes and I linked to it from during fireball earlier, but it it is quite a thing

00:23:40   Yeah, and that area that, you know, display area that they had for the hands-on stuff is completely hidden.

00:23:51   And I think there were some architectural renderings or, you know, some plans or something at some point that, or maybe even early shots that somebody had posted to the internet a few weeks ago.

00:24:02   ago and in those shots it makes it look like there's a wall that retracts away

00:24:08   like you know kind of a slightly curved wall that maybe retracts left to right

00:24:12   or splits or whatever and then you're led into a separate room for the demo

00:24:18   area and there and people were wondering out loud how are they gonna hide that

00:24:21   area when you walk down the stairs and you come in how are they going to make

00:24:26   it so that you can't see what's in there as you walk into the theater because it

00:24:30   literally shares the same space. You walk down the stairs and through the doors

00:24:34   into or through the opening into the theater which is even further

00:24:37   underground and that area is right there. You know you're boom you walk into it

00:24:42   and so people were wondering how are they going to obscure it and of course

00:24:46   once you come down the stairs we came down and it was immediately obvious the

00:24:50   way they obscure it is that it's an entire cylinder. It's not just a wall

00:24:55   it's a cylinder that wraps all the way around the exhibition area I think they

00:25:00   call it, our exhibit area. And that exhibit area is completely closed off by a column

00:25:06   of metal paneling that matches the paneling of course used above, at least in its aesthetics.

00:25:14   And that's it. You walk by this huge metal cylinder and into the theater, but you get

00:25:19   no glimpse of anything inside the cylinder when you walk by it.

00:25:22   - Right, because this cylindrical wall,

00:25:26   I don't know how you would just,

00:25:29   it's sort of like an,

00:25:30   escalator's a bad comparison,

00:25:33   but there's, I don't know, five or six foot wide panels

00:25:38   with I guess some kind of hinge between them,

00:25:40   which is how it rotates.

00:25:42   But when it's hidden,

00:25:45   when it's open and the exhibit area is open,

00:25:49   you would never think that it's possible

00:25:51   that there's a wall that could slide out and hide it

00:25:53   and when it's hidden,

00:25:54   you would never think there's a room behind there.

00:25:56   It just looks like this is like a big column

00:26:00   that supports the lobby above us.

00:26:01   - Right, exactly.

00:26:05   And it like it was built, you know,

00:26:07   built into the building and not meant to move at all.

00:26:09   - Yeah, it looks right both ways is what I'm trying to say.

00:26:13   All right, and we go into the theater itself

00:26:17   and the theater itself is just fantastic

00:26:21   every single thing about it.

00:26:22   The seats are like plush leather, they are comfortable,

00:26:27   there is truly a generous amount of leg room

00:26:31   between the rows.

00:26:33   All of the back area, every seat has power.

00:26:39   We sat a little bit closer like at the back row

00:26:41   of the front area, which was more like couch seating almost.

00:26:46   It wasn't even like we had individual theater seats,

00:26:49   It was sort of like, it was more like a bench,

00:26:52   but it was so spacious that it's more like

00:26:54   sitting on a sofa.

00:26:55   It was kind of crazy comfortable.

00:26:59   Which is--

00:27:00   - Yeah, it was, it was.

00:27:01   It felt a lot like a car seat, it really did.

00:27:04   It felt like a luxurious, spacious bench seat

00:27:08   of a luxury automobile.

00:27:10   One that you have a driver for.

00:27:13   - Yeah, and they even had the armrests

00:27:14   that popped back into the seat,

00:27:17   so you can keep them all up

00:27:19   and then there's more room for seating.

00:27:21   But if you have room and there's nobody next to you,

00:27:23   there was like a big plush automobile style armrest

00:27:28   that you can retract down from the seat.

00:27:30   It was...

00:27:31   (laughing)

00:27:33   - Yeah, it's got the little loop

00:27:34   that you hook your finger through and pull down,

00:27:36   just like a back car seat.

00:27:38   I pulled it down, but no cup holders.

00:27:40   It definitely was a European car, not an American car.

00:27:45   - So the blueprints for all of this, I guess,

00:27:47   have to be released publicly, I don't know, to get approval.

00:27:50   So like, I'm sure Apple, if they could have,

00:27:52   would have kept everything even more secret.

00:27:55   But the blueprints for this were already out,

00:27:57   and I had seen them.

00:27:58   But I'm particularly terrible, I think,

00:28:01   at looking at blueprints for a building

00:28:03   and visualizing what it actually is like to be there.

00:28:06   And when I saw the theater on blueprint,

00:28:08   I thought, well, that looks like

00:28:09   it has an unusually low ceiling.

00:28:11   And I was like, well, I guess that's what happens

00:28:13   when you build it underground, but that seems weird.

00:28:15   But when you're in there, I mean, that ceiling is cavernous.

00:28:19   It is like being in a cathedral.

00:28:21   My reading of the blueprint was obviously

00:28:24   totally dipshit wrong.

00:28:25   It's just a truly, truly cavernous space.

00:28:30   - The lowest point is when you're walking through

00:28:33   the short tunnel, or whatever you wanna call it,

00:28:35   the transition area from the exhibit area

00:28:38   to the theater itself is, when I say low,

00:28:41   it's like a 12-foot or whatever ceiling.

00:28:44   that's the lowest point and from there,

00:28:47   you know, the theater slopes down,

00:28:50   way down in a amphitheater style seating.

00:28:54   So by the time you get to the bottom sections,

00:28:56   the ceiling is quite high above you.

00:28:58   And I can't remember off the top of my head,

00:29:01   but I'm almost positive it's cut upwards as well.

00:29:04   - Yeah, I think so. - To meet the top

00:29:05   of the screen.

00:29:06   'Cause you know, they have projectors

00:29:07   and all kinds of other stuff that they need to mount.

00:29:09   And so I'm sure it goes upwards on the ceiling as well,

00:29:12   as you go towards the screens.

00:29:14   - Yeah, and I noticed that there's a lot less

00:29:19   visual, visually exposed like stage lighting.

00:29:26   Like they know what kind of shows

00:29:28   they're gonna put on there.

00:29:29   So they don't really need like a lighting rig

00:29:32   that could accommodate anything and everything.

00:29:35   I don't know, or else they just spent, I don't know.

00:29:37   It seems like they hid a lot of the lighting stuff

00:29:42   that when you look up in a theater nowadays that you see,

00:29:46   'cause it's like, what else are you gonna do?

00:29:47   It's up there.

00:29:48   It's just like instead that even the ceiling of the theater

00:29:51   was cleaner and more,

00:29:54   just simpler than any theater I've seen before.

00:30:00   - Yeah, when you build up a spoke

00:30:02   and you know exactly what it's gonna be used for,

00:30:04   I mean, theaters, remember, have to be multipurpose.

00:30:06   They have to be music venues and in true theaters

00:30:11   to support different kinds of lighting rigs.

00:30:12   And essentially something like a contact point, right?

00:30:17   That's what these trusses are in a normal theater

00:30:20   where you're like, hey look,

00:30:21   you've got 180 different possible contact points here

00:30:23   that you can hang whatever you want from.

00:30:25   Lights or strobes or speakers or whatever.

00:30:28   And then that's what the grips come along

00:30:31   and get all that set up.

00:30:32   But in this theater, they know exactly,

00:30:35   precisely what it's gonna be used for.

00:30:37   So they probably just put in exactly what they needed

00:30:39   and no more, you know?

00:30:41   And it probably allowed them to build it directly in

00:30:43   rather than having a universal rigging.

00:30:45   - Yeah, I was kind of curious what, going into it,

00:30:48   I was kind of curious what the screen would look like

00:30:52   because they could do anything.

00:30:54   It's their theater.

00:30:55   They could make like some kind of wraparound screen,

00:30:57   a curved screen that takes up the whole front of the stage.

00:31:00   They could put three screens up there,

00:31:02   you know, one on the left, one on the right,

00:31:04   one in the middle.

00:31:06   And again, like your thing before,

00:31:10   your observation that usually they just do

00:31:12   the simplest and most obvious thing possible

00:31:14   is they just had one rectangular flat screen

00:31:19   in the middle of the back of the stage

00:31:22   and it's just really, really fucking nice.

00:31:25   Right, like what is the simplest

00:31:27   and most obvious thing they could do?

00:31:28   Just put a really nice fucking screen,

00:31:31   rectangular, flat, right in the middle of the fucking stage.

00:31:33   And it was magnificent.

00:31:36   And the audio quality, I mean, it was crazy, right?

00:31:41   - Yeah, it was very good.

00:31:42   It was very good.

00:31:43   I mean, like I've listened to, I've seen movies,

00:31:47   you know, like they do this every once in a while,

00:31:49   the Dolby Atmos will put on a presentation and say like,

00:31:52   "Hey, you know, we helped with the sound design

00:31:54   "on this movie," or "We think this shows off

00:31:56   "our system really well, you can come look,

00:31:57   "check out our screening."

00:31:59   There's some Dolby Atmos theater in San Francisco

00:32:01   that people can go to.

00:32:02   And that is obviously top shelf sound.

00:32:06   And I don't know if it was quite at most level

00:32:08   'cause it doesn't need to be necessarily a home theater

00:32:11   or theater type setup, but it was close.

00:32:13   It was really crisp, really booming.

00:32:16   And when they had the segments with music,

00:32:18   like the commercials and things like that,

00:32:20   the ad spots that they had with obviously mostly music

00:32:24   in those things, I definitely felt the rumble

00:32:26   through my seat.

00:32:27   It felt like there was some, probably some subwoofers

00:32:30   built in somewhere under the seats.

00:32:32   It was good.

00:32:33   The sonic aspect of it was really, really solid.

00:32:36   - I noticed that it was the first time

00:32:38   since they've gone to high dynamic range displays

00:32:42   where during the keynote they didn't have to say,

00:32:44   now we can't show you this because the screen can't show it.

00:32:47   And instead they could show you what it looks like

00:32:52   with high dynamic range versus--

00:32:53   - Right, we're gonna switch over to our HDR,

00:32:55   top of the line projectors with 4K

00:32:59   and all of the stuff and just show you it right here.

00:33:01   Instead of going, you'll just have to imagine

00:33:04   that this looks better.

00:33:05   Yeah, and that's pricey.

00:33:08   - I would, I don't even want to tell you

00:33:10   how much money I would pay to see Star Wars Episode VIII

00:33:14   in that theater.

00:33:16   Like, to get a center anywhere.

00:33:18   I don't care if I'm in the back row,

00:33:19   but anywhere near the center in that theater

00:33:23   is where I would love to see Star Wars Episode VIII

00:33:26   because it is the nicest theater I've ever seen in my life.

00:33:30   It's truly, truly magnificent.

00:33:32   All right, let's take a break,

00:33:35   and I'm gonna thank our first sponsor.

00:33:36   Now we can talk about what a shit-show-the-hands-on area was.

00:33:39   (laughs)

00:33:41   - Yes, let's.

00:33:42   - All right, our first sponsor is Eero, E-E-R-O.

00:33:48   Now, Eero makes Wi-Fi base stations,

00:33:52   but they're not just like regular base stations.

00:33:54   they create a mesh network in your house.

00:33:57   And now they have their new second generation hardware.

00:34:00   And it's even better than before.

00:34:03   But it works with the first generation stuff

00:34:05   if you already have it.

00:34:07   Now, unlike other router companies,

00:34:09   typically to get Wi-Fi that goes through your whole house,

00:34:12   they just make routers that are even bigger

00:34:14   or have bigger antennas or something like that.

00:34:17   And instead what E-Radu does is create a mesh network

00:34:20   where you get, the basic kit comes with I think three

00:34:23   and you have one that's like your main one,

00:34:25   you plug it into your cable modem

00:34:28   or wherever it is that you get your internet,

00:34:30   and then you plug the other ones in around your house.

00:34:33   And their app, which is awesome,

00:34:36   just put the Eero app on your iPhone,

00:34:38   their app will even guide you

00:34:40   and help you kind of strategize

00:34:42   like where in your house you should put them

00:34:45   to get like the best coverage throughout the house.

00:34:48   Now the second generation hardware

00:34:50   adds a third five gigahertz radio.

00:34:54   And so now it's tri-band, and it's twice as fast

00:34:57   as their first generation hardware.

00:34:59   And their first generation hardware got rave reviews

00:35:02   from everybody who used it.

00:35:04   So it's even better now, but that third tri-band

00:35:07   helps them keep, like saturate your whole house,

00:35:10   whether your house is like wide,

00:35:13   like you've got like a lot of area to cover,

00:35:15   or whether it's tall and it has a lot of floors.

00:35:18   Either way, Eero really helps saturate your home

00:35:21   with really strong WiFi signal.

00:35:24   And the thing is, it's not like,

00:35:25   oh, well, if you have three of these set up,

00:35:27   now you've got three networks

00:35:28   and you're switching networks or something like that.

00:35:30   Like your devices, you just sign in to your network

00:35:33   and like your phone or your MacBook or whatever it is

00:35:35   that you're getting on a WiFi with,

00:35:37   it just connects to the nearest one automatically.

00:35:41   Like Eero handles that.

00:35:42   It's just one network with one password,

00:35:45   but with three, four, however many of the space stations,

00:35:49   the little things you need,

00:35:50   you don't have to worry about that.

00:35:53   It just works.

00:35:54   It's so super simple.

00:35:55   And the hardware is really, really beautiful.

00:35:58   It's so small, so simple, so elegant.

00:36:00   It's not the sort of thing you're gonna have to figure out

00:36:03   a way to hide or something like that.

00:36:05   It looks great.

00:36:06   And the new ones, the new little extra ones,

00:36:08   just plug into the socket.

00:36:10   You don't even need a cable.

00:36:11   And they even have a nightlight,

00:36:14   and they even have a nightlight underneath

00:36:16   to illuminate the floor underneath them,

00:36:18   which if you don't want, you can simply turn off.

00:36:21   But it could not be easier,

00:36:23   could not be less visually, almost invisible.

00:36:27   It's truly, truly a great product.

00:36:29   The whole reason that I can connect to Matthew right now

00:36:32   is through an Eero.

00:36:33   It's really a great thing that's made the WiFi in my house

00:36:38   so much better.

00:36:39   So here's what you do.

00:36:43   go to ero.com and if you remember this promo code,

00:36:46   The Talk Show, that's The Talk Show, use that at checkout,

00:36:51   you will get free overnight shipping.

00:36:53   It's so, like right now you could just pause the show,

00:36:58   go to ero.com, place your order, use that code,

00:37:00   The Talk Show, and by tomorrow at this time,

00:37:03   it'll ding dong, it'll be right there at your door

00:37:05   with free overnight shipping.

00:37:06   So my thanks to Eero, I recommend them wholeheartedly.

00:37:09   I would recommend them even if they weren't

00:37:10   a sponsor of the show.

00:37:11   It's really, really one of the best products

00:37:13   I've got in my house, so my thanks to them.

00:37:16   Okay, hands-on area after the show.

00:37:18   - My kid loves to pull out my ear on the wall.

00:37:22   - Pull it out of the wall.

00:37:23   - 'Cause he can reach, yeah, he can reach.

00:37:25   One of them is in the bathroom,

00:37:27   and it has the nightlight on it,

00:37:28   so he's like, ah, and he yanks it out.

00:37:30   And half part of my mesh goes down.

00:37:32   I'm like, dang it.

00:37:35   Like, literally, my internet will get slower.

00:37:37   I'm like, what happened?

00:37:37   I'm like, oh.

00:37:39   - You know what, they are-- - Sorry, I digress.

00:37:40   But they're adorable little things.

00:37:43   I can see why he's drawn to it, because it is sort of like,

00:37:47   I don't know, it's sort of like the same industrial design

00:37:49   as like Eve from Wall-E, you know?

00:37:51   It's just this sort of--

00:37:53   And it's light up, you know?

00:37:55   And he can reach it, all of the things.

00:37:56   It's got all the good things that he likes.

00:37:59   It's light up, he can reach it, and it comes apart.

00:38:03   It's really nice to touch.

00:38:05   Yeah, exactly.

00:38:06   Hands on, hands on.

00:38:07   All right, so the hands on area.

00:38:09   I linked to a picture Brad Ellis linked to

00:38:11   where he observed that the tables for the hands-on area

00:38:15   are concentric with the walls,

00:38:18   the round walls of the atrium of that hands-on area,

00:38:21   meaning that they have the same center.

00:38:24   And even the pads on the tables on which they laid out

00:38:29   the watches or the phones or whatever

00:38:31   you were trying to get your hands on

00:38:33   were concentric with the table.

00:38:35   Like custom tables, the wood grain is perfectly aligned

00:38:39   with the radius of the table.

00:38:42   The pads are custom made.

00:38:44   It truly was beautiful.

00:38:46   And I would say it was at best half the size it needed to be

00:38:51   to accommodate the number of people were there.

00:38:53   Maybe only one third of the size.

00:38:56   Like each table, every single thing, it doesn't matter.

00:39:01   Like what was the least exciting product they announced?

00:39:04   - Probably, maybe Apple TV.

00:39:05   They didn't even have Apple TV set up.

00:39:08   There was no Apple TV in the hands-on area.

00:39:10   So-- - Yeah, let's say

00:39:11   new watch bands, right?

00:39:12   I know some people love those,

00:39:14   and the fashion people certainly made a beeline.

00:39:16   Like I was near the watch band table at one point,

00:39:18   and they were like, you know, (imitates whooshing)

00:39:19   you could tell they were the fashion people,

00:39:20   'cause they actually were dressed nice.

00:39:22   - Right. (laughs)

00:39:23   - I'm just being honest. - Right, right.

00:39:27   - They got a bunch of bloggers in there,

00:39:28   and you know, sweatpants, basically.

00:39:33   But yeah, they had them arranged around in a circle

00:39:36   and even the lower attention products,

00:39:41   not the X or not the new iPhones, but the bands,

00:39:45   you could not even get there.

00:39:46   It was four deep away from even being able to touch it

00:39:49   for an hour or more after the thing was over.

00:39:52   - I have vaguely, not vaguely,

00:39:54   but I have complained about the scrum

00:39:57   of hands-on areas for a while now.

00:39:59   And I realize that this is an incredibly privileged

00:40:02   And I still feel, I feel so happy.

00:40:07   And I really am that I get invited to these events

00:40:11   because 10, 15, 20, even 20 years ago,

00:40:15   I always used to think like someday I would love

00:40:17   to be somebody who writes about this stuff

00:40:19   and gets invited to be at these Apple keynotes.

00:40:21   I would like to be there and cover this.

00:40:24   And 10 years into being somebody

00:40:27   who gets these invitations and goes there,

00:40:29   I still appreciate it.

00:40:30   and I realized that there's thousands of people

00:40:34   listening to us talk right now,

00:40:35   who in the back of their minds think,

00:40:37   boy, that would be cool if I got to be there.

00:40:38   And it really was cool to be there.

00:40:40   So file this complaint under,

00:40:43   it's a privilege to be there,

00:40:44   and really the overall experience was great,

00:40:47   and the show was great, and everything was great.

00:40:49   But, you know, so I just keep that in mind

00:40:53   when I complain about the hands-on area.

00:40:55   But effectively, the effect of these hands-on areas

00:40:58   has been going downhill for a while,

00:41:00   because of the need for so many people

00:41:03   from so many publications to get video of the stuff,

00:41:06   which takes up so much physical space

00:41:08   because you've got a camera person and,

00:41:11   for lack of a better word, talent handling it

00:41:15   and trying to talk to them.

00:41:16   And there's so much more jostling.

00:41:19   And it's been like one or two deep around the tables

00:41:22   for events for a while now.

00:41:24   But to say, like you said,

00:41:25   that this was three or four deep, it really was.

00:41:28   This was like an entirely different level

00:41:30   where it was like four people deep around the table,

00:41:32   where at least at previous events,

00:41:34   it's like, okay, I'm not even gonna get literally,

00:41:36   they call it the hands-on area.

00:41:38   I'm not actually, I may not actually get to touch

00:41:40   these things with my hands,

00:41:41   but I'll at least get to see them.

00:41:44   You couldn't even get close enough to see this stuff.

00:41:46   It was really, and then the funny thing is then,

00:41:50   you'd run into Apple people afterwards,

00:41:52   and they'd be like, isn't the hands-on area beautiful?

00:41:54   Isn't the hands-on area beautiful?

00:41:56   How about that hands-on area?

00:41:57   And it's sort of like, well, it is beautiful,

00:42:01   but from our perspective, as people who actually

00:42:05   would like to get our hands on these things.

00:42:08   (laughing)

00:42:09   - Right.

00:42:10   The hands-on area is great at many things.

00:42:15   One of those things is not actually allowing you

00:42:17   to get your hands on.

00:42:18   - Right.

00:42:19   It's like having--

00:42:20   - That's the one thing that doesn't do well.

00:42:22   - It's like having an exquisitely beautiful,

00:42:24   truly beautiful, put it in architectural,

00:42:26   the cover of Architectural Digest magazine restaurant,

00:42:30   and you can't get a table.

00:42:32   You know what I mean?

00:42:34   It's like, well, it is beautiful, but I would actually--

00:42:36   - Well, you invite everybody there,

00:42:37   and you're just standing three deep

00:42:40   behind other people eating.

00:42:41   - Yeah, and you're invited to go even.

00:42:43   You even get an invite to go, but you don't get any food.

00:42:46   - And look, there's a combination of factors.

00:42:53   So a while back, I think it was a couple of years,

00:42:56   started consolidating all of the other events worldwide into one event. So this kind of

00:43:02   coincides with the larger venues like the Bill Graham and things like that. They basically,

00:43:08   you remember, I'm sure that they used to have satellite events. So they would have like

00:43:12   the UK press would come to the Apple Store Regent Street or some other location and watch

00:43:17   a live stream and then have their own hands on area and so on and so forth. You know,

00:43:22   had various permutations of that. It wasn't always exactly that way. But there were these

00:43:26   satellite events for foreign, when I say foreign, I mean press outside of the US. And they would

00:43:33   go there and it made it so that A, they couldn't fit everybody in the room in town hall, right?

00:43:39   And then also B, they didn't have to travel and they could just, you know, go locally

00:43:42   and it would capture more press that way. So they started consolidating for logistics

00:43:48   reasons, I think, and messaging and all of that. And because they started, I think, seeding

00:43:52   more units. Remember there was that big surge in increase in seeding demo units and things

00:43:57   like that.

00:43:58   Well, I mean, famously, let's just look at it. I mean, if we want to talk about the 10

00:44:02   year anniversary of the iPhone, the first iPhone was seeded to four people. Steven Levy,

00:44:09   at the time was at Newsweek. David Pogue, who was at the Times, Walt Mossberg, who was

00:44:15   then at the Wall Street Journal and Ed Begg at USA Today, who's the only one who's still

00:44:19   at the same publication. Those were the only four people in the...

00:44:22   I saw Ed at the event. Yeah, he was walking around.

00:44:24   Yeah. Those were the only four people who were seated with the original iPhone. And I happen

00:44:30   to know that each one of them had a personal engineer from the engineering team who was on

00:44:36   call 24 hours a day. I know somebody who was one of the...

00:44:41   With his soldering gun at the ready.

00:44:42   I know somebody who was one of those four people for one of those reviewers. And it was like the

00:44:48   the most nerve-wracking experience of his life

00:44:50   because it was more or less like,

00:44:52   if anything goes wrong with that fucking iPhone,

00:44:54   you better fucking fix it.

00:44:55   (laughing)

00:44:57   - Oh yeah, and there's no manual, so good luck.

00:45:02   No repair manual.

00:45:04   - And all four reviews actually went off without a hitch

00:45:06   and they were all gone.

00:45:07   But still, that's a huge difference from the number

00:45:10   of people who get seated with review units today.

00:45:12   - So there you got a combination,

00:45:14   like a perfect storm of all of that that ends up,

00:45:17   the end result of it is that you have a ton of people there

00:45:19   and a ton of people all mashing into the demo spaces.

00:45:22   It doesn't matter whether it's at Bill Graham

00:45:24   or Town Hall or wherever,

00:45:27   you're still going to probably overload your demo space.

00:45:31   That said, they did build this thing from scratch,

00:45:36   knowing exactly how many seats they have at the theater

00:45:40   and exactly what they are going to experience

00:45:45   in terms of volume, crowd volume.

00:45:47   - Right.

00:45:48   - You know, and look, I know that it's tough.

00:45:50   I mean, I know without a doubt, personal experience,

00:45:55   that like they get calls from all these people who are like,

00:45:58   "Oh, I need to get somebody extra in,"

00:45:59   or "Can you fit one more in," and all this stuff.

00:46:01   So I don't wanna like, I don't wanna make it seem

00:46:04   like they are, the PR people are not doing their job.

00:46:06   They're trying to do their job,

00:46:07   which is get the most people possible to see these things,

00:46:10   get the word out, et cetera.

00:46:11   And they do, they're usually unflappable, very courteous,

00:46:16   all of that.

00:46:16   Like very, you know, they handle a lot of,

00:46:19   what I would really blow up at, you know, a lot of behavior.

00:46:22   - Yes, yeah. - They handle it by the guests,

00:46:24   by press and other people and other guests.

00:46:27   But they handle a lot of that with aplomb, right?

00:46:29   - Without naming it. - So I wanna give them props.

00:46:31   - Without naming any names.

00:46:32   We've both heard some interesting stories about

00:46:35   the requests that certain publications put in or the--

00:46:39   - Right, right, exactly.

00:46:42   So look, I'm gonna give them all of that,

00:46:44   you know what I mean?

00:46:44   But it would have been, it seems like

00:46:47   there would have been an anticipated issue

00:46:48   as far as the design of this space goes.

00:46:52   That look, hey, these concentric rings,

00:46:54   'cause this is essentially a big ring

00:46:55   that follows the ring of the steel walls,

00:46:57   which follows the ring of the stairwell,

00:46:59   and the ring of the, so it's gorgeous

00:47:01   and incredibly beautiful, empty, right?

00:47:05   When you see the space without the units in it,

00:47:08   because that's the only time I could see the space empty

00:47:10   'cause everybody obviously is gone at that point.

00:47:12   It's gorgeous.

00:47:13   And it would probably, to somebody who had laid it out

00:47:16   and was looking at it the day before,

00:47:18   going, "I can't wait till everybody gets to come here

00:47:20   "and see this," it would have been,

00:47:22   they would have been ecstatic

00:47:23   'cause of how gorgeous it is, all of that.

00:47:25   - I think it's-- - Logistically, it was tough.

00:47:27   - I think it's, you know, they're,

00:47:31   you and I both had briefings scheduled after the event

00:47:34   and the timing of which, and such that it was convenient,

00:47:38   It wasn't like I was asking you a huge favor to wait for me.

00:47:41   We both finished about the same time

00:47:42   so we could drive back to the city together.

00:47:45   But by the time we were done,

00:47:46   the hands-on area was taken down.

00:47:48   So we couldn't, when we came back from the briefing area,

00:47:51   which was behind this thing,

00:47:53   it wasn't like they were still out there

00:47:55   and we could then play with all the stuff, it was gone.

00:47:58   But we could see what it looked like, mostly empty.

00:48:01   We saw Jaws was there doing a TV spot with somebody

00:48:05   as we went up the stairs.

00:48:07   It looks beautiful.

00:48:08   it look, when it's empty, it is stunning.

00:48:11   But I think it sort of speaks to the weak spot

00:48:16   in Johnny Ives design aesthetic,

00:48:18   which is that there are times where,

00:48:21   I mean, and to go back to a Steve Jobs quote,

00:48:25   that design is how it works, right?

00:48:28   So if design is what it looks like,

00:48:30   it truly is a magnificent exhibit area.

00:48:33   But if design is how it works,

00:48:34   it is actually a failure of an exhibit area

00:48:37   because it was nowhere near, nowhere near enough capacity

00:48:41   because this concentric idea, this idea that the tables,

00:48:45   there'd be one sort of ring of tables laid out concentric

00:48:48   with the walls is just not enough.

00:48:50   It should have been laid out more like an Apple store

00:48:53   with rectangular benches with some space between them.

00:48:58   Like an Apple store like layout.

00:49:01   - And I can remember too that the very nature

00:49:03   of like a concentric ring means that you're gonna

00:49:05   squish people together who are on the inside.

00:49:07   So, you know, it's actually tighter

00:49:09   'cause you're walking into a ring of tables

00:49:12   and then there's a melee in there.

00:49:13   'Cause some people are just in the center trying to get,

00:49:15   like there were literally people doing hits

00:49:17   in the center of it.

00:49:18   So you have like ABC or whatever sit up

00:49:19   in the center of the ring doing hits

00:49:22   'cause that way they have the backdrop

00:49:23   of like the products and people behind them

00:49:24   and the theater behind them.

00:49:26   And they were, you know, I mean that was,

00:49:28   that creates its own chaos.

00:49:30   And then in amongst that, yeah,

00:49:32   you got all of the bloggers with the sticks

00:49:34   and doing the selfie style stuff,

00:49:37   and then you have the people with actual video people

00:49:39   who are shooting over the shoulder

00:49:41   and getting the hands-ons and all of that stuff.

00:49:42   So it's a mess, and I don't know what the solution is,

00:49:45   but it definitely was impactful, I think,

00:49:48   to some people being able to get everything they needed.

00:49:51   - The solution is to scrap the ring idea.

00:49:53   I mean, the room is obviously already a circle,

00:49:56   but scrap the ring for the tables

00:49:58   and do an Apple Store-like rectangular layout,

00:50:00   and you'd get a lot more product on the floor.

00:50:05   We spent, you and I spent, and as I mingled,

00:50:08   we did, it wasn't like we were attached

00:50:09   at the hip the whole time, but most of the people I knew,

00:50:12   we spent our time outside that ring

00:50:14   because the inside of the ring, like you said,

00:50:15   was, it was almost like it had gravity.

00:50:19   It was like once you were inside,

00:50:20   you just kinda got sucked in.

00:50:22   - Yeah, and at one point, Tim Cook and Johnny came out

00:50:29   to do some handshaking and photo ops and things like that.

00:50:34   'Cause they always bring Tim out and Tim talks to some

00:50:36   of the people at the tables and he shoots some video

00:50:39   and all of that.

00:50:39   And of course, once that happens, the melee ensues.

00:50:42   Everybody wants to get a selfie with Tim and say hi.

00:50:44   And he's very gracious about all that stuff.

00:50:46   But just to get him into the ring,

00:50:49   they had to have like five or six people around him,

00:50:53   like whatever you wanna call them,

00:50:54   bodyguards or handlers or whatever.

00:50:56   Just to like get to see like, yeah.

00:50:59   "Well, you know, I hesitate to use the word because they weren't rude."

00:51:01   It's just like, "Hey, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, we're gonna get him in."

00:51:04   And everybody, you know, is like, "Oh, okay, let me move."

00:51:07   - "Whatever." - I remember looking at them.

00:51:08   But they're also trying to get their picture.

00:51:09   They're also trying to get their selfie, you know?

00:51:11   They're dressed very casually, like in polo shirts.

00:51:14   But I remember I was looking at them and I was like,

00:51:16   "You guys are-- I bet they're all former Navy SEALs."

00:51:19   [laughter]

00:51:20   No doubt in my mind.

00:51:21   Well, all of the guys driving the carts were former cops.

00:51:24   - Yeah. - Like all of the people driving you--

00:51:26   driving the press up and down the pathways and stuff.

00:51:28   No. So I was doing, I was doing a Periscope.

00:51:31   I was doing a Periscope video outside the ring showing a group of people going

00:51:35   up the elevator. Now the elevator is,

00:51:38   for those of you who haven't been following the architecture of this place is

00:51:42   sort of a notable in so far as when you come into it on the,

00:51:47   in the lobby,

00:51:49   it's facing one way and then it opens in the back and rather than put two doors

00:51:54   in the elevator car,

00:51:57   the elevator actually descends in a sort of helix-like thing

00:52:01   so that it rotates 180 degrees as you descend and ascend.

00:52:07   And the elevator shaft itself is, of course, made of glass.

00:52:10   So you can see this from either upstairs or downstairs.

00:52:14   You can watch it as it goes.

00:52:17   So I'm shooting a periscope video of the elevator.

00:52:20   And that's actually where the door was where--

00:52:23   like, as I'm shooting this elevator,

00:52:25   For those who were like, I don't know,

00:52:26   600 people on my periscope, they got quite a nice surprise

00:52:29   where I'm telling them I'm shooting the elevator,

00:52:31   and then all of a sudden the door opens

00:52:33   and Tim Cook, Johnny Ive, and Laurene Powell Jobs

00:52:36   (laughing)

00:52:37   walk out of a door and right past me.

00:52:40   People on the periscope were like, holy fucking shit.

00:52:42   (laughing)

00:52:44   That was interesting.

00:52:47   It was very interesting watching the people

00:52:49   make space for them because it was not like it used to be.

00:52:54   - Yeah, and when it used to be, I remember,

00:52:56   very specifically, like the Yerba Buena Center,

00:53:00   they had that outdoor separate exhibit area.

00:53:03   In other cases, they may use for artwork,

00:53:06   or they turn it into a gallery or another presentation space

00:53:09   but they used it for this exhibit space,

00:53:11   for the Apple event.

00:53:11   And I remember Tim walking around and kind of standing there

00:53:15   and Jim Dalrymple would talk to him or say hi,

00:53:18   or somebody would come up or a handler would be

00:53:20   standing next to him telling him something,

00:53:22   and then he would shoot a little photo op thing.

00:53:25   But it was just such a crush this time.

00:53:27   It was just very, like impossible crush.

00:53:30   - I remember back in the Steve Jobs era,

00:53:33   where Jobs would wander around the hands-on area,

00:53:38   and it was just Jobs and Katie Cotton.

00:53:41   And Katie would, they never stopped and talked to me,

00:53:47   but I would watch them, and I could see what it was,

00:53:51   was Katie would, in a low voice,

00:53:56   tell him exactly who he was about to meet

00:53:57   'cause Katie had like the,

00:53:59   Jobs couldn't be bothered to remember

00:54:00   who the fuck who was, but Katie did.

00:54:02   - Yeah. - And so she would say,

00:54:05   hey, this is so-and-so from the Wall Street Journal

00:54:07   or this is, and then he'd come up and go,

00:54:09   hey, how you doing, what'd you think?

00:54:11   And that was always, and Tim does the same thing,

00:54:14   but Steve Jobs is a question whenever he'd be,

00:54:17   and Katie would also help him make sure

00:54:19   that he met the right people,

00:54:20   that he wasn't wasting time on people like me.

00:54:24   Then he talked to David Bogue and talked to Ed.

00:54:27   He didn't need to be reminded

00:54:28   who Walt Mossberg is, for example.

00:54:30   But his question was always, "So what'd you think?"

00:54:33   And you could tell he wanted to know, "What did you think?"

00:54:37   - Yeah, exactly.

00:54:38   And then it was getting filed away somewhere.

00:54:40   - It was literally though,

00:54:41   just Steve Jobs and Katie Cotton wandering around.

00:54:44   And obviously, I mean, people noticed

00:54:46   that Steve Jobs was walking around.

00:54:49   It was not like he wandered around unnoticed,

00:54:51   but it was not like,

00:54:53   nobody had to part the Red Sea for him physically.

00:54:56   - Yeah. - You know?

00:54:57   - I was at the last event that he was at,

00:55:00   and I do regret not just saying hi,

00:55:02   'cause I was right next to him, but he seemed busy,

00:55:04   and I don't know, at the time,

00:55:05   I'm trying to juggle cameras and do my thing

00:55:08   and all of that stuff,

00:55:09   but I do regret not saying hi or whatever,

00:55:11   but I felt like I could've.

00:55:13   - Yeah, yes. - Like I could've just been

00:55:13   like, "Hey, what's up?"

00:55:14   And with this, it was just like,

00:55:15   "Oh man, they've got some really tough work on their hands

00:55:20   "to get him in there, let him talk to a couple of people

00:55:23   "who are looking at the table naturally,

00:55:24   "like the people that are just organically next to him,

00:55:27   "shoot a little over the shoulder stuff for ABC

00:55:29   "or whatever interview that they're doing B-roll for."

00:55:32   And then they had to literally get him out after that.

00:55:35   They just said, "Okay, well let's get out."

00:55:37   Because it was creating even more of a congestion issue.

00:55:40   Johnny hung around and talked to stuff,

00:55:42   but I think people were asking him

00:55:45   what his watch was he was wearing and stuff like that.

00:55:47   He hung out a little bit more.

00:55:48   But with Tim, it was just impossible.

00:55:50   And it was a byproduct of the space.

00:55:52   - Did you notice what watch he was wearing?

00:55:54   I'll bet he was wearing a ceramic.

00:55:55   I think the ceramic is--

00:55:57   - I would guess so, but I didn't.

00:55:59   I wasn't close enough to see, yeah.

00:56:02   But yeah, I would guess so.

00:56:03   I was talking to another guest that was there,

00:56:06   a designer, and at the time, we were just chatting it up,

00:56:11   and then out of the blue, somebody's like,

00:56:13   tasked me on the shoulder, and was like,

00:56:14   "Hey, could you just step this side for just a minute?

00:56:16   Oh, just excuse us.

00:56:18   Johnny's gonna get a shot for Vogue."

00:56:19   And so I had to step away and he stood next to the designer

00:56:21   and got their quick Vogue shot.

00:56:23   So in the shot in Vogue, I'm just out of frame to the left.

00:56:26   (laughing)

00:56:28   Not asked to participate.

00:56:30   They get their shot and then we continue our discussion.

00:56:36   But I thought that was funny.

00:56:36   - You should have said then,

00:56:38   "Do you wanna get one with all three of us then?"

00:56:40   - Yeah, oh, you could.

00:56:41   Oh, all three?

00:56:42   Oh, yeah, sure.

00:56:42   (laughing)

00:56:45   - Yeah, exactly.

00:56:46   What is he wearing?

00:56:47   What are they wearing?

00:56:48   What are the stars wearing?

00:56:50   - The story I heard was,

00:56:54   last thing, I think it's the last remark

00:56:56   I have to make about the theater,

00:56:57   but when you go from the hands-on area,

00:56:59   and like you said, there's sort of like

00:57:01   a little low ceiling, feels like a tunnel almost,

00:57:04   but like a little hallway between there

00:57:06   and the actual theater itself,

00:57:07   and it's all stone.

00:57:10   Everything on the walls is just stone,

00:57:11   but then there's an engraved Steve Jobs theater above it.

00:57:16   Type set in Helvetica,

00:57:20   which I found slightly odd that it's not San Francisco,

00:57:23   but it is obviously not a mistake

00:57:26   because the story I heard was that

00:57:28   it was the third version of it

00:57:31   and that the first one was Johnny came down

00:57:34   and looked at it and said, nope,

00:57:35   $50,000 in stone etching, rip it out, put another one in.

00:57:40   Second one came in, nope, another 50 grand, throw it out.

00:57:45   And then the third one was put up and he was like, that's it.

00:57:49   A kind of weird, a little slightly weird to me

00:57:53   that it's not San Francisco 'cause almost everything else,

00:57:56   everywhere is all San Francisco, the software, the hardware,

00:58:01   all the signage on campus, everything San Francisco,

00:58:03   but the word Steve Jobs Theater engraved into the thing

00:58:06   are set in Helvetica.

00:58:09   Oh, the other thing we should talk about is the parking garage.

00:58:13   I got to figure out how to put these.

00:58:17   I'll try to put these into show notes somehow,

00:58:19   but we parked on level P one of the visitor center parking garage and there's P

00:58:23   two the first day. Oh, P two the first day. Oh, P one was the second day though.

00:58:27   And that's the one where the mistake is where there's,

00:58:29   there's two elevators and they're not next to each other.

00:58:32   Yeah. So if anybody's listening to this,

00:58:34   we're going to tell you exactly where you could fix this issue.

00:58:39   on level P1 of the visitor center parking garage, there's two elevators. The elevators

00:58:43   are facing each other. They're not side by side. And there's only, you know, as you might

00:58:47   expect, there's two buttons, one to go up, one to go down. And the one that's correct,

00:58:55   the up and down buttons are about six inches above the one seam in the wall. And on the

00:59:00   other one...

00:59:01   Right. It's a two-tone wall, like two tones of concrete. There's a groove that separates

00:59:06   the lighter concrete from the darker concrete.

00:59:08   Very nice, you know, nice little concrete work there.

00:59:11   - And on the facing elevator, the up and down button panel

00:59:15   was obviously misplaced by the workmen,

00:59:17   and it actually crosses the seam between the concrete.

00:59:22   And as you pointed out, there's even like tape underneath,

00:59:27   right, was it tape, what was that?

00:59:29   - Yeah, it's like blue masking tape,

00:59:31   and they instantly just yanked it off.

00:59:33   They had just finished.

00:59:34   - But they couldn't get the rest of the tape off

00:59:35   because the button panel was placed over the gap in the concrete.

00:59:40   It is so obviously wrong.

00:59:43   And we both couldn't stop laughing with the knowledge that it's proof that Johnny

00:59:48   Ive has never stepped foot on level P1 of the visitor center parking garage.

00:59:54   He has never seen this because if he saw this, he would have ripped it out.

00:59:57   I really hope he does not.

00:59:58   I don't think I really would be surprised if he listens to the show, but if he does,

01:00:01   he's going to like pause it and go over there.

01:00:03   He's going to be like, "What the fuck are these guys talking about?"

01:00:05   and he's gonna go down there and see it,

01:00:06   and he's gonna lose his shit.

01:00:09   - And you know, look, it's just, you know,

01:00:12   junk happens when you're building an enormous,

01:00:16   sprawling complex.

01:00:18   Things are gonna slip through the cracks.

01:00:20   It's just that they spend so much time building it

01:00:22   and you have a person whose reputation is like,

01:00:25   nothing but like, look, this seam, why?

01:00:28   This seam, you know?

01:00:30   And then you look and there's an elevator button

01:00:33   that's like eight inches too low.

01:00:34   And not only that, it wasn't that it was a blank wall

01:00:36   and you're like, are they lower?

01:00:38   I need to break out my ruler.

01:00:40   It was a, like there was a literal demarcation line

01:00:43   that allowed you to see immediately

01:00:45   that it was really, really wrong.

01:00:47   - And it's directly facing one where it's exactly right.

01:00:52   - Right, right.

01:00:53   It's like, you just look left and right

01:00:55   and it's like wrong, right.

01:00:56   I think you did like the invitation of what Johnny would do

01:00:59   if you stayed in there like,

01:01:00   "Like left, what the hell is going on here?"

01:01:03   (laughing)

01:01:04   Am I taking crazy pills?

01:01:05   But like, I grew up finding stuff like that,

01:01:09   'cause my dad was that way,

01:01:10   he was a fit and finished guy for a lot of years.

01:01:12   He did interior decorating and paint and plaster

01:01:16   and all of that stuff.

01:01:17   And so for him, he'll walk into a room

01:01:20   and instantly go like,

01:01:21   "Oh, that wasn't cut in properly there."

01:01:23   And you're like, "Dang it, I thought I was finished

01:01:25   "in this room," you know?

01:01:26   And I inherited that thing.

01:01:28   And so I was like, we got off that elevator,

01:01:30   I'm like, I feel a disturbance in the detail force.

01:01:35   What's going on here?

01:01:37   But yeah, that was good times.

01:01:40   It was good stuff. - Really good times.

01:01:41   All right, let me take another break here

01:01:42   and then we'll talk about the actual products

01:01:43   that were introduced at the event.

01:01:44   But I wanna tell you about our next sponsor

01:01:47   and it's our good friends at Backblaze.

01:01:48   Backblaze offers unlimited native backup for Mac and PC.

01:01:53   No credit card required to start, no risk,

01:01:56   and you get a 15 day trial at backblaze.com/daringfireball.

01:02:01   Here's the deal, you install Backblaze on your Mac

01:02:06   and it is great software.

01:02:09   I'm not gonna name names, but there's competitors

01:02:11   that have these weird Java based apps that are horrible

01:02:14   and bloated and take up tons of RAM

01:02:17   and have terrible user interface.

01:02:19   Backblaze is just a nice system preferences panel.

01:02:22   They're actual Mac software engineers

01:02:24   used to work at Apple, so they totally know

01:02:26   what it means to write truly native Mac software.

01:02:28   And back plays never, and I've been using it for years,

01:02:33   never, ever, like I keep activity monitor running

01:02:38   on my Mac all the time 'cause I'm a nerd.

01:02:39   And if I see those levels go up and I'm like,

01:02:41   go over there and see what it is,

01:02:43   what's making my CPU go too hard, it is never back plays.

01:02:48   Like it's not the sort of thing where you need to sit there

01:02:50   and like, oh, I'm gonna do something,

01:02:51   I'm gonna work right now, I better go turn it off

01:02:54   so that it doesn't do a backup.

01:02:55   It's like, I have no idea when Backblaze does these backups

01:02:58   because it's silent and efficient and it just works.

01:03:02   It's just truly invisible.

01:03:05   And what it does is it backs up all of your stuff

01:03:08   to their cloud backup service.

01:03:11   Should it be your only backup?

01:03:12   No way.

01:03:13   And they'll be the first ones to tell you that.

01:03:16   You should have local backups.

01:03:18   You should use Time Machine.

01:03:19   I use a product called SuperDuper,

01:03:22   which creates a clone, a perfect cloneable image

01:03:25   of my startup disk.

01:03:26   So if anything ever goes wrong with my startup disk,

01:03:28   I am never more than like one day's data away

01:03:31   from just plugging in the external drive

01:03:33   and I can boot from it and there it is.

01:03:36   But you should have backups offsite

01:03:39   just in case something terrible happens.

01:03:41   So maybe you get robbed, maybe there's like a fire,

01:03:45   maybe the pipe leaks in the ceiling above your office

01:03:50   and soaks all of your computer equipment

01:03:52   or something like that.

01:03:53   There's all sorts of things that could go bad

01:03:55   where you're gonna be like,

01:03:56   boy, I really wish I had an offsite backup.

01:03:58   Well, Backblaze is the offsite backup that you should use.

01:04:02   I use it, I would tell you to use it

01:04:04   even if they didn't sponsor the show.

01:04:06   Just truly great.

01:04:07   And here's the deal, you pay five bucks a month per Mac

01:04:11   and it'll back up everything on your Mac

01:04:14   and any external drives connected to your Mac.

01:04:16   And that's the only limit.

01:04:18   And you're like, well, wait, not me.

01:04:20   I've got like this giant movie collection

01:04:23   on an external drive next to my Mac.

01:04:24   Nope, no limits.

01:04:25   If it's connected to your Mac, it all gets backed up.

01:04:28   That's it, five bucks a month.

01:04:29   There's no catch, that's it.

01:04:33   So go to backblaze.com/daringfireball.

01:04:38   They'll know you came from here.

01:04:40   Download the free demo and you got 15 days to try it out

01:04:42   and see if everything I just told you is true.

01:04:44   So my thanks to Backblaze for their continuing support

01:04:47   of Daring Fireball and the talk show.

01:04:48   Great, great service.

01:04:50   If you're not signed up yet,

01:04:52   there's something wrong with you.

01:04:53   Which order, what order do you want to talk about the products?

01:04:58   Do you want to talk to the order Apple did them or do you want to go reverse because iPhone 10 is the hot shit?

01:05:05   I don't know. Let's go reverse.

01:05:09   Let's do what? Reverse?

01:05:11   Let's go reverse.

01:05:12   Okay. iPhone 10.

01:05:14   Because I figure if we run out of time.

01:05:16   Yeah. Let's give short shrift to retail.

01:05:21   (laughing)

01:05:23   - It's one of those Apple events where they go,

01:05:28   a lot of great stuff happened,

01:05:29   but we have too many things to talk about,

01:05:30   so everything's going great, okay.

01:05:32   - Does it make sense, I don't know that it makes sense

01:05:35   to talk about iPhone X separately from iPhone 8, because--

01:05:38   - No, I think we should talk about it both.

01:05:40   - Yeah.

01:05:41   - There's a lot of shared hardware and shared features

01:05:43   and shared philosophies, I think.

01:05:45   - For showmanship purposes, they introduced them separately

01:05:49   and did the one more thing,

01:05:51   and they're obviously priced separately.

01:05:54   But at a basic level, it's almost impressive

01:05:59   how much of the internal new stuff that's in iPhone 10

01:06:05   is also in iPhone 8.

01:06:08   - Yeah, almost everything.

01:06:12   - A11 Bionic chip is, as far as we know,

01:06:16   at this point, they're the same speed.

01:06:18   And maybe there's, I don't know,

01:06:20   maybe there's a megahertz difference, I don't know,

01:06:22   or gigahertz, I guess, at this point.

01:06:23   But I would almost be surprised if there were.

01:06:26   But the fact, like the most impressive fact

01:06:29   of the A11 Bionic chip is that the new performance controller

01:06:34   that Apple has engineered now allows all six cores

01:06:39   to run at the same time, as opposed to previously,

01:06:42   and which a lot of, you know, it's not unique to Apple.

01:06:45   There's other Android, like the Snapdragons,

01:06:47   to do this thing where there's high power,

01:06:50   high performance cores and low power,

01:06:53   lower performance cores and it switched between them.

01:06:56   So when your iPhone didn't really need it,

01:06:58   your iPhone 7 doesn't need a lot of CPU performance,

01:07:03   it'll use two low power cores.

01:07:06   And when it does need more performance,

01:07:08   it switches to two high performance cores.

01:07:11   On the A11 Bionic,

01:07:14   and I can't emphasize what a breakthrough this is,

01:07:17   it's always using the low performance cores

01:07:20   and when it needs more performance,

01:07:22   it adds the high performance cores.

01:07:25   And so the multi-core performance difference

01:07:28   between these two is, it's absolutely jaw-dropping

01:07:32   and nothing like what you would expect

01:07:34   in a 12 month year over year upgrade.

01:07:36   And the iPhone 8s get them too.

01:07:38   - Yeah, they all get 'em.

01:07:41   And the performance controller too,

01:07:44   it's more sophisticated even than just switching or adding,

01:07:47   'cause it can traffic control between all of them,

01:07:50   as far as I understand it from the presentation,

01:07:52   is that you can get any combination thereof,

01:07:56   whereas the previous Fusion chip,

01:07:59   it switched them off and on in pairs.

01:08:02   Like it was sort of much less sophisticated.

01:08:05   So basically, just a more sophisticated version

01:08:07   of what they were doing before,

01:08:08   but enormously forward in terms of efficiency.

01:08:11   And one of the big questions, I think,

01:08:14   or big kickbacks right away, everybody was like,

01:08:16   oh well, it's getting some performance gains

01:08:20   because it got to drop 32-bit, right?

01:08:24   Like it doesn't have to do 32-bit,

01:08:25   it can do only 64-bit now.

01:08:27   And I think that's true, but I don't think that that's,

01:08:30   I don't think that should account in people's minds

01:08:32   for much of the performance gain.

01:08:33   It really is an enormous jump forward

01:08:35   and processing power and efficiency.

01:08:38   - Yeah, there may be, that's an interesting question

01:08:40   as to whether part of this performance controller

01:08:44   is the fact that it only has to do 64-bit.

01:08:47   My understanding though is that the dropping of 32-bit

01:08:50   and the performance gains from that is really more that,

01:08:54   it's not really, I could be wrong.

01:08:58   There might be a performance controller,

01:09:00   CPU level, silicon advantage to that,

01:09:02   but mainly it's sort of a RAM issue

01:09:06   where supporting both means you have to have both versions

01:09:10   of all the OS frameworks.

01:09:12   And when a 32-bit app launches on iOS 10,

01:09:15   you have to load all of AppKit

01:09:17   and whatever other blank kit frameworks,

01:09:21   insert camera kit, whatever.

01:09:24   In broad strokes, and I'm sure people

01:09:30   who truly understand what's going on,

01:09:31   they might roll their eyes,

01:09:32   but in broad strokes, it's almost like you've got

01:09:34   two versions of iOS running.

01:09:35   You've got the 32-bit version and the 64-bit version.

01:09:38   And the context switching of that is,

01:09:41   it's just fairly significant, whereas going 64-bit only,

01:09:45   it just drops a whole level of that

01:09:48   that you just don't even have to worry about.

01:09:50   But you might be right, there might be something,

01:09:51   maybe it was just that it was easier

01:09:53   to develop the performance controller

01:09:55   if you only knew you had one set of frameworks

01:09:57   and you never had to worry about

01:09:59   that sort of context switching.

01:10:00   Yeah, and I think that there's, there are going to be people who will try to dampen,

01:10:09   which it's only right to do, dampen the amount of like over the top enthusiasm about this

01:10:15   process or by saying, well, you know, look, here are the caveats, here are the things

01:10:20   that may, you know, they may be doing to get these performance numbers or whatever, because

01:10:25   we've seen some of the geek bench, public geek benches already, you know, coming from

01:10:28   test devices out there that are showing like Macbook Pro-like performance.

01:10:35   My hat's off to the people in the hands-on area who managed to get to the App Store and

01:10:38   down.

01:10:39   I know.

01:10:40   Because when you're using it, there is somebody from Apple supervising you.

01:10:46   I don't know.

01:10:47   I'm not quite sure how that happened.

01:10:49   Because what they...

01:10:50   Whoever was able to do that.

01:10:51   Right.

01:10:52   How did they sign into the App Store?

01:10:53   I'm not even sure if that's how these numbers linked.

01:10:54   I don't know.

01:10:55   I don't know if it was...

01:10:56   Yeah.

01:10:57   - Right, right. - Right on the Twitters.

01:11:00   And it was showing a MacBook Pro performance

01:11:03   coming out of that thing.

01:11:04   And then of course there are people who are like,

01:11:05   "Ah, well, you gotta take into account the 32-bit switch,

01:11:09   "you gotta take into account this and that

01:11:11   "and the other thing."

01:11:12   And I get all that, but I have two things to say about that.

01:11:15   One, Apple did it, right?

01:11:19   Like their Silicon team did it.

01:11:21   All of those things that you're saying,

01:11:23   oh, they just dropped 32-bit.

01:11:26   "Oh, okay." But they had to drop 32-bit. They were literally the first phone ever to use

01:11:30   a true 64-bit processor, and they spent three years building that, you know? And now it's

01:11:35   paying off, right? Like, they transitioned their file system, the 64-bit file system,

01:11:39   without a hitch to, like, a billion devices, you know? Like, zero problems. Like, nobody.

01:11:48   I never saw a single person say, "Oh, I upgraded to iOS, Tindo, whatever, and my file system

01:11:54   screwed up. No, not a single one. I mean, that's ridiculous, right? So they had to put in the work.

01:11:59   Right. And then the second aspect of it is what I feel is important to point out, even though it

01:12:05   won't affect people in the near term, the A11 is putting up these numbers and performing this way

01:12:12   on a battery powered device. Like, can you imagine how powerful that thing actually is?

01:12:20   if it can put up a MacBook Pro-like number on a battery.

01:12:25   Imagine the performance your MacBook Pro, your battery life performance your MacBook Pro would

01:12:30   get if it had the iPhone 8 battery. Right. Like imagine an iPhone with a MacBook size battery.

01:12:37   Right. Exactly.

01:12:38   That's how good your MacBook's battery life would be. So look, everybody's always like just chamfered

01:12:46   it at the bit to know when Apple is going to switch over and put ARM CPUs into Macbooks

01:12:51   and all this stuff.

01:12:52   And, you know, a lot of people see the Touch ID and the Touch bar as testing the waters

01:12:58   because that obviously has an ARM CPU in it or ARM part in it.

01:13:03   But I don't know.

01:13:04   I'm not a prognosticator in that regard.

01:13:06   And there are tons of people that are much more smarter, much more smarter, obviously,

01:13:10   much smarter than I am.

01:13:12   Much smarter than I am about processor lifespan and like when that's the right thing for them to do.

01:13:18   And I don't know system architecture on a low level to know are they ready to do that and all that, right?

01:13:23   But just coming from a purely strategic standpoint in terms of what they're building there, they could probably switch now, right?

01:13:32   They could probably switch very, very closely to now.

01:13:35   And that's crazy, crazy impressive over the past three years what they've done.

01:13:41   And I'd like to point out that all these really massive,

01:13:45   fun, and incredibly technical, obviously, improvements

01:13:49   have been made on quote, unquote, S years.

01:13:52   You know, the years that most people were like,

01:13:54   oh, you know, who cares, right?

01:13:56   It's like, well, you should care

01:13:58   'cause they're literally building the future

01:14:00   of your processing power on your laptop

01:14:02   in front of your face, you know?

01:14:04   - I saw somebody, somebody I know at Apple

01:14:08   works on iPad and they were at the event and you know a typical Apple person

01:14:13   they're not gonna tell me anything but all I said I said to him was holy shit

01:14:19   the a11 and he just smiled so you bring this up I wrote about this at during

01:14:28   fireball I wrote about this that I retweeted that screenshot floating

01:14:33   around with them because somebody's I somebody said I got like a I don't know

01:14:36   a thousand goddamn likes on it.

01:14:38   But somebody said, "Holy shit,

01:14:39   "this is like MacBook performance."

01:14:40   And I retweeted it with a comment,

01:14:42   "Macbook Pro performance."

01:14:44   "Macbook Pro, not MacBook."

01:14:45   Like, this blows the standard MacBook away.

01:14:48   Like, the nicest regular MacBook that you can get,

01:14:52   the CPU performance on your iPad 8,

01:14:54   not even if you just get the 8,

01:14:56   that $699 iPhone 8 beats the MacBook.

01:15:01   It's MacBook Pro performance.

01:15:02   And of course, out of the woodwork

01:15:04   come the Android fans and they're like,

01:15:07   I thought benchmarks don't matter.

01:15:10   You know, I thought benchmarks don't matter.

01:15:13   And nobody ever said this is why.

01:15:15   Nobody is saying you should buy an iPhone

01:15:17   because it performs, has great Geekbench benchmarks.

01:15:21   Nobody is saying that.

01:15:23   But this is unprecedented

01:15:25   in the history of personal computing.

01:15:26   Like because in the old days, there were times,

01:15:31   like it sort of was like a tide coming in and out

01:15:34   where every once in a while Apple would make

01:15:36   this breakthrough back before they switched to Intel.

01:15:39   Like when they first switched to PowerPC,

01:15:42   the Macs were, Power Macs, when they first had came out,

01:15:45   they were arguably, and I think it's fair to say,

01:15:48   they jumped ahead of the PC.

01:15:51   And then very quickly Intel passed them again,

01:15:58   and the PowerPC architecture sort of languished.

01:16:02   And then there were times like the Power Mac G4,

01:16:07   was it, yeah, the G4 sort of put them back in the game

01:16:16   and then it quickly languished

01:16:18   and then it just never went anywhere.

01:16:20   And so there were times when as an Apple user,

01:16:22   as a Mac user, you were sort of,

01:16:24   you really were effectively making a conscious choice

01:16:26   to use a platform that in terms of pure computing performance

01:16:29   was behind the rest of the industry.

01:16:31   And I did so, I stuck with the Mac through all those years

01:16:36   because I liked the software, I liked the design.

01:16:39   But I was aware, I wasn't like in denial

01:16:43   that dollar for dollar or just in terms of like,

01:16:46   what's the fastest performing computer I can buy?

01:16:49   Is it as fast as the fastest performing PC?

01:16:51   No, I knew it wasn't, but I was fine with that

01:16:53   because I liked the platform.

01:16:55   It's never been the case though that the people,

01:16:58   And in some broad sense, Android is the new Windows

01:17:01   because it's the platform that is licensed

01:17:04   and everybody uses it.

01:17:05   It was never the case that Windows users had to accept

01:17:09   that Macs had blow away performance that blew them away.

01:17:13   But that is the case now

01:17:16   and they're losing their minds over this.

01:17:19   There's a certain contingent of Android user

01:17:24   who prefers the platform, which is totally reasonable.

01:17:27   I get it. I don't like it as much, but I could see why some people might, but who also want like the best performing hardware in the world and they can't have that.

01:17:37   And it's like causing cognitive dissonance in their minds.

01:17:47   That like one-usmanship is sort of where the specs discussion falls apart for me, right?

01:17:56   I mean, and like you mentioned earlier, people are going like, "Oh, I thought the specs don't matter," or whatever.

01:18:00   But the effects of the specs do, right?

01:18:03   The effects of what is being done there matter.

01:18:08   And that's what it's capable of.

01:18:10   So you honestly, I don't even,

01:18:14   I really wish people who are in Android

01:18:17   that feel some sort of FOMO or whatever

01:18:19   about even the processing power,

01:18:22   let's just say that, right?

01:18:23   They're like, oh man, I want a phone that uses Android

01:18:26   that has the most powerful processor in the world.

01:18:28   And my question to them is why?

01:18:31   Like why do you want that most powerful processor

01:18:34   or whatever?

01:18:34   Is it just because you know holding your hand you have that?

01:18:37   And the answer for some people would be yes.

01:18:39   Like they just want it.

01:18:40   They want to know, like honestly it's the same reason

01:18:43   I upgrade my GPU like habitually.

01:18:46   Like I want to know if I pull up Destiny 2 on a PC

01:18:49   in October, it's gonna run like 4K with all of the

01:18:52   water droplets and body fluids and everything looking crisp.

01:18:57   And that's fine.

01:18:58   That's just, I do it consciously knowing that I'm

01:19:01   probably spending money before I need to

01:19:04   to upgrade my GPU.

01:19:05   And some people do the same thing with an Android phone.

01:19:07   They're like, "Colin, I got the new hotness

01:19:09   because it's the fastest in the world or whatever. And so now they are faced, as you said, with this dissonance problem where they're like, "Oh, I cannot get something that goes blow for blow in Android, you know, goes blow for blow with an A11." But my question to them is like, why do you want that processor? And I think that that's the strength of iOS, because it gives people that unified platform to build for and the ceiling of maximum power that they know

01:19:39   they can target. Like they know the rules of their world. And so when they go in there, they know they

01:19:46   can cast a fireball or they know they can, you know, summon a dragon or whatever. They know

01:19:53   exactly what they can do within the frameworks of that world that Apple has built for them. Whereas

01:19:58   on Android, as a developer who wants to push the limits, your targets get narrower and narrower and

01:20:04   narrower, the more you want to push the platform. And so that's why I always ask people like, why?

01:20:09   Why do you want a more powerful processor on Android? Because guess what, all you're going to

01:20:14   get is a handful of demo apps that can even take advantage of it. And those apps will probably not

01:20:19   scale. Obviously, there are a few apps from major developers like games that may push it, right, and

01:20:26   are built to push it. But by and large, if you're going into an A11 powered iPhone, like

01:20:35   an iPhone 8 or an iPhone 10, you know that the apps getting built for that thing by the

01:20:40   people that know how to do it are going to be pushing the boundaries of what that's capable

01:20:45   of. Like you're going to within months, you're going to be seeing what really truly what

01:20:49   that thing is capable of. And that doesn't happen on Android because it's not a symbiotic

01:20:56   relationship between the developer ecosystem and the actual hardware that you're using?

01:21:01   It really is as though like in the mobile era, it's as though imagine if like Microsoft and Intel

01:21:09   had been one company and kept the chips to themselves. And, you know, it's undeniable that

01:21:18   Apple's chip team is better than Qualcomm's

01:21:23   and better than Samsung.

01:21:25   Samsung has their own chips, I forget what they call them,

01:21:28   like in the weird way that there's literally

01:21:31   like two different Galaxy S8s, one with a Snapdragon

01:21:34   and one with the custom Samsung chip.

01:21:38   But the performance on the Samsung chip

01:21:40   isn't really all that different than the Snapdragon.

01:21:42   Like Apple is literally like two years,

01:21:44   maybe even more ahead of the industry.

01:21:48   And there's just no precedent for that

01:21:50   in the PC side of things.

01:21:52   And again, you get this if you get the base model iPhone 8.

01:21:58   And again, this is not the main reason why.

01:22:01   You had a very good line in the car when we were driving

01:22:04   where it's not the specs that matter,

01:22:06   it's the effects that matter,

01:22:07   meaning how does the user benefit from this?

01:22:14   But they are real effects, you know,

01:22:16   and one of them is battery life,

01:22:17   where this faster performance means

01:22:19   if you want to do this thing on your phone

01:22:22   and the processor can do it without even breaking a sweat,

01:22:26   it takes less of the battery life away

01:22:28   and you get longer battery life.

01:22:29   - That's right, that's right, yeah.

01:22:31   It's like you got Joe DiMaggio out there

01:22:35   playing in your neighborhood ballpark.

01:22:38   - Right.

01:22:38   - Like is it gonna be an effort for him

01:22:39   to crush it out of the park?

01:22:41   No, you know, he's gonna be fine.

01:22:43   And so that it does allow-- overhead is important, right?

01:22:48   So just to give you an example, ARKit, one of the reasons

01:22:53   that many developers are excited about it after they learn

01:22:56   this fact, they're excited about it,

01:22:58   is that it uses almost none of the GPU.

01:23:02   I mean, almost none.

01:23:04   I think it activates it and uses some bare minimum amount of it.

01:23:07   But nearly all of the GPU is completely

01:23:10   untouched by just firing up the ARKit framework.

01:23:14   So all of the work that ARKit does for the developer in getting a point cloud and plane

01:23:20   detection and tracking and updating that tracking and et cetera, et cetera, it's all CPU-based.

01:23:27   And the GPU is left completely alone because Apple knows that many of these developers

01:23:31   will be building in Unity or in Unreal and they're going to need all of that GPU to

01:23:37   perform those calculations to render those scenes.

01:23:40   So ARKit, all that stuff is on the processor to do.

01:23:44   And in order to do that efficiently and consistently,

01:23:47   they need precise understanding of the capabilities

01:23:51   of the processor, incredibly good handling

01:23:54   over the power utilization of that processor,

01:23:57   and then of course, you know,

01:23:58   a handling over the rest of the hardware,

01:23:59   like the sensors and things.

01:24:01   And that kind of like, you know, blended efficiency

01:24:06   only comes when you build the silicon

01:24:07   and then you build the framework.

01:24:09   - Yeah.

01:24:09   I think that another good example of that,

01:24:13   and again, Apple does like to put features

01:24:16   in the new hardware that's exclusive to them.

01:24:19   I'm lacking a better word here.

01:24:21   This sounds mean-spirited, but out of marketing spite,

01:24:25   let's say, that hey, you can only do this

01:24:27   if you buy the new iPhone.

01:24:29   But I think that the new portrait mode lighting effects,

01:24:33   It's not just spite of, hey, sorry iPhone 7 Plus users,

01:24:38   you don't get this, it's only for iPhone 8 and iPhone 10.

01:24:41   I don't think so.

01:24:43   I think it actually has to do

01:24:44   with the increased performance overhead,

01:24:46   because it's all rendered in real time when you do it.

01:24:49   Meaning portrait mode on the iPhone 8 Plus

01:24:52   and on the iPhone 10 has these lighting effects

01:24:55   that you can do.

01:24:55   And as Phil Schiller explained on stage,

01:24:57   they're not filters.

01:24:59   They truly are computationally simulating

01:25:02   advanced lighting effects of like,

01:25:06   it detects eyes and simulates placing a light

01:25:11   the way that a professional portrait photographer

01:25:14   would place a light just to highlight your eyes.

01:25:17   And it's not just after you snap the photo

01:25:21   and then it goes and a little spinner shows up

01:25:23   and it like does it, it's all rendered in real time.

01:25:26   I think that's another example of it

01:25:30   where the hardware has a, the performance of these chips

01:25:34   truly has an effect on the experience of using the device

01:25:39   in a way that people can appreciate.

01:25:40   - Yeah, even if it's not, yeah, even if it's not,

01:25:42   I think some people would go, like,

01:25:44   hey, Apple doesn't chip stuff on purpose,

01:25:47   and I know people will pull examples out

01:25:49   and wave them around if you ask,

01:25:51   but in terms of something like the portrait mode,

01:25:55   I think that even if they could be supported,

01:25:57   my gut tells me they could probably get it to run

01:26:00   on like an iPhone 7 Plus, right?

01:26:03   But even if they could support it there,

01:26:04   the experience might not be, you know,

01:26:08   as flawless as they showed it on stage,

01:26:10   where it's just like, bing, bang, boom.

01:26:11   And maybe the live preview wouldn't work,

01:26:13   but afterwards it would work.

01:26:15   Or maybe the processing time is just longer,

01:26:18   so that when you snap it, you get the spinny, right?

01:26:21   Where, you know, as you saw on stage,

01:26:24   it's like, bang, you know, you shoot the picture,

01:26:26   and that's it, right?

01:26:27   There's no waiting around.

01:26:29   It doesn't go to a splash screen.

01:26:30   It doesn't say, "Okay, give me 10 minutes, check back."

01:26:33   And it's just, I think experience is sometimes

01:26:35   why those decisions are made,

01:26:37   even though they can support it or can ship it.

01:26:40   And some people will cry foul, like,

01:26:41   "Hey, I don't mind, just give it to me."

01:26:44   I think that sometimes it's a matter of that.

01:26:46   Sometimes it's a matter of resources

01:26:47   and supporting it or whatever.

01:26:49   But I guarantee that the best experience you're gonna have

01:26:52   is with the A11, 'cause this stuff is cutting edge.

01:26:54   And they built the silicon to support it.

01:26:57   They really said like, oh hey, we could do this?

01:27:00   Okay, well what do we need to get this done?

01:27:02   And they went and asked their silicon teams to build it.

01:27:04   You know, that's how it works.

01:27:05   - Then what else is new?

01:27:08   So all of the new iPhones, including the iPhone 8,

01:27:11   get a True Tone display.

01:27:13   And anybody who has an iPad Pro with a True Tone display,

01:27:18   which heretofore was the only Apple product with True Tone,

01:27:21   I love True Tone.

01:27:25   I cannot wait for it to, it's not quite as profound

01:27:29   as going from non-retina to retina, but it is close.

01:27:32   And it just like with retina,

01:27:36   once you have one device that's retina,

01:27:37   when you look at non-retina devices,

01:27:39   you're like, oh my God, look at these big fat pixels.

01:27:41   And it's like when you have a true tone device

01:27:44   and then you look at a non-true tone device

01:27:46   indoors with incandescent lighting,

01:27:47   you're like, why is everything so blue?

01:27:49   It's not an iPhone 10 only feature.

01:27:53   It is iPhone 8 and a serious, serious upgrade year over year.

01:27:58   Trying to think what else.

01:28:03   - Yeah, TrueTone's great.

01:28:04   I love that, I love that thing.

01:28:05   I mean, as somebody who's also hypersensitive

01:28:07   to color temperatures, it's been a huge, huge plus for me

01:28:11   with the iPads, so I'm really happy

01:28:13   to see that come to iPhone.

01:28:15   - In other words, and I think there were so many people

01:28:22   that I spoke to, you know, just other writers,

01:28:26   you know, Jim Dalrymple and other people,

01:28:28   like if there were no iPhone X this year,

01:28:31   the iPhone 8, as are, as they are,

01:28:33   exactly feature for feature and dollar for dollar,

01:28:37   what they cost, what they do,

01:28:38   would be a very solid year over year update.

01:28:42   - Yeah, I think you'd have to endure,

01:28:45   Apple would have to endure that same wave of like,

01:28:48   oh, is the iPhone boring, you know, stuff,

01:28:50   But it would be fine.

01:28:52   Like the people would buy them.

01:28:53   People that needed an upgrade would get the upgrade.

01:28:56   You get nice solid camera upgrades.

01:28:58   You get a great new portrait lighting feature,

01:28:59   which I think is a really, really cool application

01:29:03   of computer vision.

01:29:04   You get a lot of nice things.

01:29:06   - A very, if you don't use a case,

01:29:08   a very different look with the glass backs.

01:29:10   - Yeah, the glass backs that we saw,

01:29:15   I mean, I really liked the gold.

01:29:17   I think it's really cool.

01:29:18   It has like a sort of pink cast to it in the back underneath the glass.

01:29:22   I guess it's like coated on the back as a sort of like millennial pink type pink.

01:29:27   Very Tope-y pink.

01:29:29   But it's good. I like it.

01:29:31   Part of the reason I wanted you to be on the show is that if you weren't the guest

01:29:34   for this wrap up show, I was going to have to rip you off in so many ways because

01:29:38   so many things that you said privately to me that I want to repeat.

01:29:42   But like, I like that they went from having two golds to having one gold.

01:29:46   and you described it as a, it's not rose gold,

01:29:49   but it is a rosy gold.

01:29:51   - Right. - And I think that is,

01:29:54   I can't explain it, if you've only seen it in photos

01:29:56   and you haven't seen it in person yet,

01:29:59   that's the best way to describe it.

01:30:00   And I think it is a very,

01:30:03   again, I probably shouldn't speak to fashion,

01:30:07   but it's, to me, seems like, from what I've seen

01:30:11   in storefronts and stuff like that--

01:30:12   - It's the kind of gold that changes

01:30:14   depending on what light you look at in it.

01:30:16   Like in the sunlight, it'll be very pink or whatever,

01:30:18   and then like under fluorescence,

01:30:20   it may look more straight gold.

01:30:22   But I don't think it's the death of rose gold

01:30:24   like everybody thinks it is.

01:30:25   - No, no, but it's like a shift

01:30:27   in what is the hot flavor of rose gold.

01:30:30   And the color of the glass is a very,

01:30:35   it just seems of the moment.

01:30:36   I don't know that it's a timeless color, I think,

01:30:40   but it's a very 2017, 2018 color.

01:30:44   - I think that's partly why so many of them--

01:30:47   - Which is fine.

01:30:48   Like it should be a color of the time, you know?

01:30:50   - Yeah.

01:30:51   I think rose gold as it was is over, you know?

01:30:55   And it's interesting to me that they've kind of narrowed in

01:30:58   on one flavor of gold.

01:31:01   It looks great.

01:31:02   - Yeah.

01:31:04   - Yeah, looks good.

01:31:05   And the silver looks good, you know?

01:31:07   All you gotta do is look over people's shoulders

01:31:10   at the thing and you see that the glass,

01:31:13   the glass back is definitely more active.

01:31:17   It feels like the backs of the aluminums

01:31:20   did feel a little bit static.

01:31:22   I think that's the best way to put it.

01:31:23   It's like, it feels solid, it feels static,

01:31:25   and some people like that, I get it.

01:31:27   But the reason I went with Jet Black with my iPhone 7

01:31:29   is 'cause it felt more alive.

01:31:31   It's like sparkly and shiny,

01:31:32   and you get a lot of cool reflections,

01:31:36   and just feels more, I don't know, more active to me.

01:31:40   And I think that the glass backs on the 8s

01:31:43   just make them feel there's translucency there.

01:31:46   There's more going on, you know?

01:31:48   And that may, it'll encourage more people

01:31:50   to use clear cases or no cases, all of that stuff.

01:31:54   - Yeah, I wonder if--

01:31:55   - You know you mentioned, you mentioned the thing,

01:31:56   oh, sorry, go ahead.

01:31:57   - Well, no, you keep going.

01:31:59   - You mentioned the thing, I just wanted to loop back,

01:32:02   'cause you mentioned the thing about

01:32:03   if they had not released an iPhone X.

01:32:05   And this might be an interesting time to talk about this,

01:32:07   But I've been thinking about this.

01:32:12   And I was gonna write about it at some point,

01:32:14   but I'll just say it here and maybe I'll write about it.

01:32:17   I don't know.

01:32:18   But I really think that there's a lot of people

01:32:19   with a lot of angst over the notch, right?

01:32:22   And over the screen not being full screen.

01:32:25   And they see it as a betrayal, you know,

01:32:27   of Apple's attention to detail and that, you know,

01:32:30   I mean, quite literally Steve Jobs would never have shipped

01:32:33   this device or never agreed to let it be shipped.

01:32:35   'cause it's like, oh, find a way to get rid of the ears

01:32:38   or whatever.

01:32:39   Or heck, they're just, software-wise,

01:32:42   just put black up there, or whatever it is.

01:32:45   And I get it, I get it, I think honestly,

01:32:48   the arguments are valid.

01:32:50   I'm not out there carrying water for Apple

01:32:52   and saying, oh, you should love the horns

01:32:53   and all of this, right?

01:32:54   It is what it is.

01:32:56   But I think that it is, while not creating excuses

01:33:02   or any of that, I'm just a person who likes to ask why.

01:33:04   Like, why?

01:33:05   Why would they release it like this?

01:33:07   Why would they release it before they could figure out a way

01:33:10   to eliminate those things?

01:33:11   If that's what you think that they were trying to do

01:33:13   and couldn't do, right?

01:33:15   Eliminate those little ears or the notch

01:33:18   or whatever you wanna call it.

01:33:19   And the way I think about it, I believe,

01:33:22   and I have not verified this with anybody at Apple,

01:33:25   this is not based on inside information, any of that junk.

01:33:27   This is just me thinking.

01:33:29   It seems to me that the iPhone X,

01:33:31   I'm gonna crib word from you

01:33:33   talking about the AirPad charger,

01:33:34   But the iPhone X is like a super set of the iPhone 8.

01:33:39   In other words, it's like we got the iPhone 8 as a base.

01:33:44   Now, what can we do to make sure that we are catching

01:33:49   what we believe in our hearts

01:33:51   to be the next wave of platform change?

01:33:54   And right now, that's all about computer vision

01:33:59   and augmented reality.

01:34:00   like computational computer vision based interfaces

01:34:05   and input mechanisms are all anybody thinks about

01:34:10   in tech right now.

01:34:11   Even if that's not their space, they're like,

01:34:13   hey, how will our business be affected by this shift?

01:34:15   If it happens, 'cause everybody's sort of like

01:34:17   thinking it's gonna happen.

01:34:18   And if you're shifting to AR as an interface

01:34:21   and the camera as an input mechanism

01:34:23   and all of these things,

01:34:24   if you look at Apple and Apple's thinking about these things

01:34:27   and they plan three years in advance,

01:34:29   So three years ago, they were thinking about these things,

01:34:32   when they started building out the system,

01:34:35   and get all the silicon ready for it and all that stuff,

01:34:37   and buying the companies.

01:34:39   You know, in 2013, they started buying these companies.

01:34:41   And all of that, they're planning for all of this.

01:34:44   If you look at it now versus 12 months from now,

01:34:48   if the platform shift happens the way people think

01:34:50   it happens over the next year,

01:34:52   12 months later would be too late.

01:34:55   They needed to get out there now with a camera

01:34:58   that shows off not only their ability,

01:35:01   but also inspires people to think about it

01:35:03   and develop this to start developing for it,

01:35:05   where they have this true depth camera,

01:35:08   they have all of these tools that allow people,

01:35:11   more precise accelerometers,

01:35:13   the A11 is optimized for AR and for AR applications

01:35:18   and for computational photography and obviously Core ML

01:35:21   and all of that, all of these stuff is all adds up, right?

01:35:23   To a perfect storm of, we need to ship this now

01:35:26   and plant our flag in this new platform generation now

01:35:31   to pull ahead of our competitors

01:35:33   or to push forward in this way.

01:35:36   Whereas like Google with Tango,

01:35:38   they've got to refactor significantly now

01:35:41   and try to, you know, they launched obviously

01:35:43   Core AR Core and all of that,

01:35:46   and which is fine I hear, you know,

01:35:47   it's not like crazy bad or anything,

01:35:49   it's they took a lot of Tango

01:35:50   and just cut out some stuff, right?

01:35:52   But they don't have a Tango device that's mass market.

01:35:55   They don't have a, you know, however many they're going to sell these things, 100 million device Tango phone.

01:36:01   They tried that and it didn't work.

01:36:03   And so now Apple, I think, sees a lot of opportunities for them.

01:36:06   They can get a device that has the depth of camera out in the market at massive scale.

01:36:10   They can plant the flag in computational photography.

01:36:13   They can plant the flag in AR and depth sensing as an input mechanism and output mechanism.

01:36:19   They've got a lot of positives here.

01:36:21   So they go, why not now?

01:36:23   Why can't we take all of the technology that we have

01:36:25   and put it in this thing and hell,

01:36:27   if we're gonna need this tab to put these cameras in,

01:36:31   fuck it, you know, pardon my French.

01:36:33   But it's just like we're gonna do this

01:36:35   because we feel it's the right time.

01:36:37   It's still a great experience.

01:36:38   We don't feel it compromises it.

01:36:39   Now you can argue that.

01:36:41   And then that's what we're gonna do.

01:36:43   So that's the way I've been thinking about this.

01:36:45   Like it's a superset of the iPhone 8

01:36:47   that they were able to launch now to plant a flag

01:36:49   for this next generational shift in platforms.

01:36:52   - I'm, you know, that was great.

01:36:55   That was absolutely one of the great rants

01:36:58   I've heard on a podcast in a long time.

01:36:59   And I agree with every word of it.

01:37:00   - And now here's why it's wrong.

01:37:01   - No, no, I agree with it.

01:37:04   And so I'm, you know, if I were at Apple

01:37:08   and in a position to vote thumbs up or thumbs down

01:37:10   on the hardware aspects of the notch, I would,

01:37:15   you know, for everything that you just said,

01:37:18   I'm gonna give it a reluctant thumbs up.

01:37:20   Like, do I wish that they could have all the features

01:37:23   and all of the dot projector and the camera and everything

01:37:26   and somehow fit it behind the pixels of the display?

01:37:31   Sure.

01:37:32   Do I think that the, I think the ideal form

01:37:36   of the iPhone X design would be a,

01:37:40   the same thing with no notch.

01:37:41   That's the ideal form of it.

01:37:44   And they can't do it, and therefore,

01:37:47   since we can't do it, what do we do?

01:37:49   I think the notch is reasonable

01:37:52   because I think if you didn't have the notch,

01:37:54   if you just had a forehead that was of that thing,

01:37:58   then you would have to have a corresponding chin

01:38:00   because I think the symmetry matters

01:38:04   and I feel like the symmetry is maintained in portrait mode

01:38:07   while you're holding the phone vertically.

01:38:10   Even with the notch, there is a certain symmetry to it.

01:38:13   My problem with the notch, and I think I wrote this,

01:38:18   but effectively it's not the notch itself in hardware,

01:38:20   it's the way the notch is handled in software.

01:38:22   And I'm even willing to go with the

01:38:24   embrace the notch UI style,

01:38:26   again while you're holding the phone vertically.

01:38:28   It's the fact that when you hold it horizontally

01:38:30   that they're going with this,

01:38:32   you can see it and you scroll,

01:38:35   it's over there on the left all the time.

01:38:37   I think it's ridiculous.

01:38:38   I think that when you hold the phone sideways

01:38:40   they should cover the notch with black.

01:38:42   And the thing that I find so surprising about it

01:38:45   is that it's when they went to OLED

01:38:46   and OLED has the blacks that can hide it.

01:38:49   And the best example of it is Apple Watch, right?

01:38:53   Like you can't, except in extreme sunlight,

01:38:56   you can't see where the display ends

01:38:59   and the bezel starts on Apple Watch.

01:39:01   The black of the background of Apple Watch,

01:39:04   except in the most extreme of sunlight,

01:39:06   you just can't see it.

01:39:07   And even in extreme sunlight, it's sort of subtle.

01:39:09   You have to kind of look for it.

01:39:11   So they could do it.

01:39:13   And I think it's almost ridiculous that they don't.

01:39:16   Right. And I don't I don't I am not the I am not of the camp that I'm trying to say.

01:39:23   Apple loves the notch and are just a big fans of the notch.

01:39:29   And why can't you see why they're right?

01:39:31   I think that they would, as you said, eliminate the notch that they could.

01:39:35   I really firmly believe that.

01:39:37   I think that it's my my perspective on it is they felt that the notch was worth it, given

01:39:44   what the trade-offs were, what they could accomplish.

01:39:48   And some people disagree, and some people are like,

01:39:50   well they shouldn't ship it because Apple's a company

01:39:52   that thrives on detail and look at all of these caveats

01:39:55   to this notch, blah, blah, blah.

01:39:57   But I honestly think that Apple's guidelines,

01:39:59   like design guidelines, if you look at those

01:40:01   about making the notch work in your designs or whatever,

01:40:05   none of those guidelines are like,

01:40:09   the notch is the way of the future, right?

01:40:11   They're like, here's how to make your apps work

01:40:13   with the notch.

01:40:14   - Right.

01:40:16   - It's less like, plan for the notch

01:40:18   to take over Apple's line of hand computers.

01:40:23   It's, this is how you deal with the notch,

01:40:25   plain and simple.

01:40:26   And that, I think, speaks to me to be like,

01:40:29   maybe our next one won't have the notch.

01:40:31   And maybe it will for another generation,

01:40:34   but eventually that notch is going bye-bye.

01:40:37   - And in terms of the keynote,

01:40:39   I do kind of admire the keynotes,

01:40:42   embrace the notch aspect.

01:40:45   And compare and contrast, and I wrote this,

01:40:47   but I think it's a very good comparison

01:40:49   to the camera bump on the iPhone.

01:40:51   And I do think that the notch is very analogous

01:40:54   to the camera bump.

01:40:55   It's the front-facing equivalent.

01:40:57   Ideally, you would want a phone like the iPhone SE

01:41:03   and all the phones from the iPhone S and earlier

01:41:06   where the camera is flush with the back

01:41:08   and you don't feel it, it sits flat on a table,

01:41:11   and there is no bump.

01:41:13   But I understand why the bump is there,

01:41:16   because a thinner phone everywhere except for the bump

01:41:20   feels better in hand and thinner is,

01:41:23   for lack of a better word, sexier on hardware.

01:41:26   And yet the physics of photography mean that the lenses

01:41:31   need to be a certain distance from the sensor

01:41:34   and bigger sensors require bigger lenses

01:41:37   that are further away.

01:41:38   It's in conflict.

01:41:42   So I get it.

01:41:43   But the early pictures of,

01:41:45   there were promotional photos of the iPhone 6

01:41:47   that were a mini little controversy in our world

01:41:50   where they had pictures of the phone from the side

01:41:52   where you couldn't see the bump.

01:41:54   And the question is, did Apple fake that?

01:41:56   And if you sit here and hold it,

01:41:57   you can hold it at a certain angle

01:41:59   where sideways you can hide the bump.

01:42:01   And I think that they were genuine photos

01:42:03   that they didn't Photoshop.

01:42:04   - That's the way I stand when I go on stage,

01:42:06   like just a certain way.

01:42:08   - Right. - It's just a certain way.

01:42:09   So I look bitter.

01:42:10   - And that's what they did.

01:42:14   But there's a certain argument to be made

01:42:16   that that's actually, even if it's a genuine photo

01:42:18   that wasn't Photoshopped, it still is sort of disingenuous

01:42:21   not to show the bump.

01:42:22   And so they've gone the opposite way with the notch.

01:42:24   And literally to the point where one of the things

01:42:27   that had people almost like a pop leptic,

01:42:31   was that they, in the Johnny Ive narrated video,

01:42:34   design video, when they showed video playing,

01:42:36   like somebody watching Wonder Woman,

01:42:39   the notch was literally overhanging the content of the video.

01:42:44   The video is filling every pixel of the display,

01:42:47   including round corners,

01:42:49   so it's cutting off the corners of the video,

01:42:51   and the notch was actually overlaid

01:42:54   over the content of the video.

01:42:56   And people were like, "WTF, including me."

01:43:01   And the truth is, it's just like now,

01:43:05   where you can switch between, you double tap on a video

01:43:09   and it, you know, even on an iPhone 7

01:43:11   and it'll either fill the screen

01:43:12   and cut off some of the video

01:43:14   or it'll preserve the perfect aspect ratio of the video

01:43:17   and use black bars at the top or bottom as necessary

01:43:20   to do that.

01:43:21   And it's the same way on the iPhone 10.

01:43:23   And by default, it actually defaults to doing

01:43:26   what I would strongly argue is the right thing,

01:43:28   which is preserving the aspect ratio of the video.

01:43:31   So it's actually, Apple actually went to the non-default

01:43:34   in the video just to not hide the notch,

01:43:38   which I kind of admire.

01:43:39   - Right.

01:43:41   Right, you gotta give 'em sort of credit for that.

01:43:44   - Right, like there's-- - In some way.

01:43:46   - There's a certain integrity to it, I would say.

01:43:49   (laughing)

01:43:50   - Right, exactly.

01:43:52   Yeah, you know, so the camera bump thing,

01:43:55   I think that there is a, as you said,

01:43:59   there's a straight up allegory between those two.

01:44:01   However, that camera bump's only gonna get bigger

01:44:04   over the next couple years.

01:44:05   So it makes me wonder how the notch will do,

01:44:09   how soon it will go or how soon it will,

01:44:12   they'll find a way to circumvent.

01:44:14   And whatever that is, by the way,

01:44:16   they're already working on it

01:44:17   and have been for a year or two, right?

01:44:19   Like whatever we're trying to divine,

01:44:22   they've already done it or already figured out

01:44:25   how they're gonna do it.

01:44:25   And like the camera bump, you look at next year,

01:44:28   that camera, I'm saying next year, right,

01:44:30   I'm just pulling this out of my butt.

01:44:31   I don't know when they're gonna actually do it,

01:44:33   but next year whenever they decide to put a depth camera

01:44:37   on the other side of the phone,

01:44:40   that bump's gotta get bigger,

01:44:41   or they gotta rearrange the elements inside it

01:44:43   to make room for the IR emitter and projector

01:44:46   and all that jazz.

01:44:47   Now it's less effective on that side of the phone,

01:44:49   to be honest.

01:44:50   It's much more effective when it's close,

01:44:53   so they may be working on other systems

01:44:55   for the other side of the phone.

01:44:55   They may not be an exact mirror,

01:44:58   'cause IR is obviously much more efficient at close range.

01:45:02   But whatever it is, it's gonna have to go in that bump.

01:45:05   - I do think, again, I have no inside juice on this

01:45:10   whatsoever, and I could be totally wrong.

01:45:13   But again, I think you're right,

01:45:14   that it probably either won't be IR,

01:45:17   or if it is IR, it won't be quite as effective

01:45:19   because IRs, it's mostly there for your face,

01:45:23   and for portrait photos, and for the face ID.

01:45:26   But there might be something else that they can do

01:45:29   to do a depth map on the back.

01:45:32   And I do feel like that's part of how phone photography,

01:45:37   meaning no matter how big that camera bump is going to get,

01:45:42   in theory, it has to be easy enough

01:45:45   to still slip in your jeans.

01:45:47   So it's never gonna be the size that,

01:45:50   and I don't think it's ever going to telescope out

01:45:53   like some point and shoot cameras do.

01:45:55   It's never, the camera lens is never gonna be that big.

01:45:58   So within the confines of the physics

01:46:01   of a phone-size camera system,

01:46:05   I feel like the way that phone photography

01:46:09   is going to continue to catch up

01:46:11   and/or pull ahead of true photo,

01:46:16   you know, true camera cameras,

01:46:18   would be things like depth mapping

01:46:21   combined with the, it's computational photography,

01:46:25   but it needs, I think it,

01:46:27   there's room for additional sensors back there.

01:46:29   In not not physically, but room in in in the system.

01:46:34   - Philosophically.

01:46:35   - Philosophically, perfect.

01:46:36   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:46:37   And 'cause I think that there's definitely not a scenario

01:46:42   where you just take the exact same array and flip it around

01:46:45   and it's really all that useful.

01:46:47   But whatever it is,

01:46:49   they're definitely working on something there.

01:46:50   And so that bumps not going, not going bye bye.

01:46:52   - One thing that only really occurred to me like yesterday,

01:46:55   thinking about this is that this is the first time

01:46:59   to my memory, unless I'm missing a feature,

01:47:01   this is the first time that there is something

01:47:04   to the front-facing camera that is way better

01:47:07   than the back camera.

01:47:09   Like the, you know, whatever you wanna call it.

01:47:11   I mean, I'll just say it, I'll just say the word selfie.

01:47:16   The selfie camera has always been--

01:47:20   - Did you break out in hives?

01:47:22   - Well, if Shiller can say it, I can say it.

01:47:24   I guess they call it, what do they call it?

01:47:28   The FaceTime camera, I think they still call it,

01:47:30   but they should call it the selfie camera.

01:47:33   But the front-facing camera has always been a subset

01:47:37   and really a sort of severe subset

01:47:39   of the back-facing camera.

01:47:40   It's always had smaller sensor

01:47:41   and it's just not as good a camera.

01:47:44   The depth stuff, the stuff that's in the notch,

01:47:50   it in some ways makes it better.

01:47:53   It actually is, you know,

01:47:55   it's a really interesting piece of technology

01:48:02   and the back camera doesn't have it.

01:48:04   Kind of interesting.

01:48:05   - Yeah, that's true.

01:48:06   I didn't think about that either.

01:48:08   That makes total sense.

01:48:10   I mean, I think that, it's never leapfrogged.

01:48:13   It has come on parody at some point, I think.

01:48:17   Like, and remember too that like, you know,

01:48:20   with the caveats that the lens elements

01:48:22   are always different, front versus back,

01:48:23   'cause you need different field of view and all that.

01:48:25   I think at some point it reached sensor resolution parity

01:48:30   or sensor parity, but then they always

01:48:32   kinda go back and forth.

01:48:34   But yeah, I think so, I think you're right.

01:48:36   Definitely it speaks to the times

01:48:39   and how people use their phones.

01:48:40   The rise of the selfie is not just about

01:48:43   taking pictures of yourself,

01:48:45   it's about how people communicate.

01:48:47   The Snapchat generation and people that are comfortable

01:48:51   communicating either via video or image in place of text.

01:48:56   It does definitely make sense to focus on that camera more

01:49:01   and devote technology to it.

01:49:03   And of course, Face ID, you know, all of that.

01:49:05   It's an amalgam, right?

01:49:06   It's not like, oh, this is the reason.

01:49:08   But yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely a good point.

01:49:11   - Should we jump to talking about Face ID?

01:49:17   Is there anything else on, I mean?

01:49:21   - Yeah, we can.

01:49:22   I mean, you had Craig on your show,

01:49:24   I already had that, which was nice.

01:49:26   - You had an interview with him for TechCrunch,

01:49:28   which was also nice,

01:49:31   and you covered the privacy-related aspects of it

01:49:34   that kind of slipped my mind,

01:49:35   so that's kind of interesting.

01:49:37   So I guess we don't have to spend a ton of time on Face ID

01:49:39   because you've written about your interview,

01:49:41   previous episode of the show is me talking

01:49:43   to Craig Federighi about it,

01:49:44   and I don't think there's much left on the table,

01:49:47   but I, you know--

01:49:48   - I don't think we're more qualified

01:49:49   to talk about it than Craig.

01:49:50   - Right.

01:49:51   Do you know what really, what blew me,

01:49:53   what blows me away about Craig is

01:49:55   that he clearly understands every single aspect

01:50:00   of everything Apple is doing at a technology level

01:50:04   in the sense of that great Richard Feynman axiom

01:50:08   that the only way to prove

01:50:12   if you truly understand something

01:50:14   is if you can deliver a freshman essay

01:50:17   essay, or not essay, but what do you call it, lecture about it.

01:50:23   Can you explain it?

01:50:24   Explain it to a five-year-old.

01:50:25   Let's put it that way.

01:50:26   If you can't explain it in plain terms, then you don't truly understand something.

01:50:30   And Craig excels at explaining how all of this stuff works, like differential privacy

01:50:36   and all the complex ways that they're managing.

01:50:40   So he understands everything they do and has time to manage all these teams.

01:50:47   It's like I kind of get it that it's useful for Apple

01:50:52   to have a senior executive who truly understands

01:50:54   all of the technology the company's working on.

01:50:56   I get it, but I can't believe that that individual

01:50:59   is also somebody who manages all of the software teams

01:51:02   at the same time, which you would think would be,

01:51:06   take up 60, 70 hours a week.

01:51:09   - Yeah, and it reminds me of this, the anecdote,

01:51:15   And I'd heard the anecdote before, but I heard it first person as well.

01:51:18   Um, that he, and, uh, from a buddy that, you know, uh, I think, uh, works at,

01:51:25   works at ILM, uh, Todd Vaziri, who's, um, you know, I think he's spoken about this

01:51:30   on Twitter too a little bit, but he, I guess he, you know, worked with James

01:51:34   Cameron at one point, um, on one of his shows and you get, you just get this

01:51:39   vibe from, from Cameron that he could do your job or that at least he knows the

01:51:45   fundamentals of your job and you are in doubt as to whether or not he could do

01:51:49   it better than you. Like, I mean, he may not, right? He may need to sit down and

01:51:52   learn all your tools or whatever, but he understands the fundamentals of what

01:51:56   you're doing and how to get the performance out of you that he wants.

01:52:00   And you have this understanding that if he had the time and if it was in his,

01:52:07   you know, schedule to do so, that he might be able to sit down and do this

01:52:10   thing that you're doing and that you want to impress him, you know, and that

01:52:14   you can impress him because he knows how hard it is to do what you do, you know, or how

01:52:19   tough of a task he's giving you, right? Because there's a difference between a manager like

01:52:23   that and a manager that's like, has no concept of how hard it is to build a system that you're

01:52:29   building or to squash a bug that you're quashing. And one who has been in the trenches and who

01:52:35   knows it, or at least, you know, has an understanding of how hard it is. And you want to work harder

01:52:41   for those people. You want to do better for those people because you know that they will

01:52:45   appreciate it. And I've always kept that in my mind and I'm no Jim Cameron, but I always

01:52:50   try to make sure that I'm at least understanding the scope of the things that I'm asking people

01:52:54   to do when I'm managing them. And I personally always love it if I've actually tried to do

01:53:01   it at least once. And whether that's like pull off a particular tone in a piece or whatever

01:53:09   and in editorial, that's that.

01:53:11   But in Craig's world, you get the feeling like if he's in there asking you to accomplish,

01:53:17   you know, pulling something off like Face ID, where it's like, oh, it takes three quarters

01:53:23   of a second.

01:53:24   And he's like, no, it should take a third of a second or whatever, that you he knows

01:53:28   what's needed to get there.

01:53:29   And you want to impress him by getting you there.

01:53:31   And so that's a different kind of vibe than a manager who who you think is really just

01:53:35   there to manage you as a cog.

01:53:37   - Yeah, and Cameron is, he's spoken,

01:53:42   I've seen him speak about Stanley Kubrick.

01:53:44   He's a huge Kubrick fan, and I think that same thing

01:53:46   was true with Kubrick, where he mastered all aspects

01:53:49   of movie making.

01:53:50   He could edit, he could shoot.

01:53:52   Famously, had the camera in his hand for tons of shots.

01:53:55   And I remember reading a story,

01:53:58   I'm gonna botch this a little bit

01:53:59   'cause I'm doing it from memory,

01:54:00   but one of Kubrick's early studio movies

01:54:03   was a great, great heist movie called The Killing.

01:54:06   I love all those movies, but if you like heist movies,

01:54:10   but you're wary, you're like, I don't like old movies,

01:54:14   but this is so good, and it so sort of presages

01:54:17   the Tarantino style.

01:54:18   - It's influenced The Dark Knight too, like so much,

01:54:20   you know, all of that.

01:54:21   - But there's this great anecdote.

01:54:22   There's an early scene, I forget when they put it,

01:54:27   'cause it is chopped up chronologically,

01:54:29   but there's a scene where they're planning the heist,

01:54:33   and it's in the one guy's apartment,

01:54:34   and it takes place in two rooms,

01:54:35   and there's a dolly shot where they're in one room

01:54:38   and in one take the camera pans or dollies sideways

01:54:42   to go from one room to another.

01:54:44   And it was one of the first shots they shot at least.

01:54:46   It was one of the first scenes that they shot and the thing.

01:54:49   And the cinematographer had this all set up

01:54:51   and Kubrick came in and like looked at it

01:54:53   and it was like totally like lazy,

01:54:55   you know, like the way that it was lit.

01:54:57   And he's like, no, no.

01:54:58   And the guy was like, well, you know,

01:54:59   it's gonna take forever to do it the other way.

01:55:01   And Kubrick was just like, fuck you.

01:55:02   And he like went and did it

01:55:03   and just set up all the lights the right way

01:55:06   and said move and just did the dolly shot himself.

01:55:09   And then like the cameraman was like, oh shit,

01:55:11   this guy could do my job.

01:55:13   And so it's like, I better up my game

01:55:15   or I'm gonna get fired.

01:55:16   And totally changed the way he came in to every single scene.

01:55:21   He's like, I better do the best that I can do.

01:55:23   And I think you're exactly right.

01:55:24   What else is there to say about iPhone 10?

01:55:29   I mean, it's, what are the differences

01:55:32   - Between iPhone 10 and iPhone 8.

01:55:34   The screen is obviously different.

01:55:36   - The depth camera.

01:55:37   - Depth camera. - Yeah, the screen is different.

01:55:40   The screen is OLED, you know, obviously.

01:55:43   That's a huge jump.

01:55:44   One thing, and I don't know the answer to this,

01:55:46   but one thing a lot of people are talking about right now

01:55:48   is whether that OLED is pen tile construction or RGB.

01:55:52   And they're leaning towards pen tile

01:55:54   because of the dithering at the corners

01:55:56   that gives it that nice smooth curve.

01:55:59   It's a sub-pixel anti-aliasing, I guess,

01:56:00   that's being used for that curve.

01:56:03   And the question then is, if it's pen tile,

01:56:07   because of the way the pen tile screens are constructed,

01:56:10   the apparent resolution may be actually less

01:56:12   than the actual resolution.

01:56:15   In other words, they're wondering if it's sharp or not,

01:56:18   as sharp as the iPhone 8.

01:56:19   I don't know, 'cause I've only seen it briefly,

01:56:21   obviously, there at the event,

01:56:23   how those screens compare.

01:56:27   But that's an interesting thing that I wanna look into.

01:56:31   Well, who knows what that'll be,

01:56:33   but that might be a minor controversy.

01:56:35   - Yeah, I suspect, though, that even if it is pen tile,

01:56:38   and I have no idea, but even if it is,

01:56:41   there are so many virtual pixels print,

01:56:45   or what they claim to be the pixels print,

01:56:48   that even if it is pen tile,

01:56:49   it still should be smoother, I think, than an iPhone 8.

01:56:53   Whether it would be smoother than an 8 Plus, I don't know.

01:56:56   But the 8 Plus has the weird thing

01:56:58   where it's still a scaled down interface.

01:57:01   It still is not really a true 3X.

01:57:04   It's like you treat it as 3X,

01:57:05   but they scale it to a certain degree,

01:57:08   which decreases the actual sharpness of it to some degree.

01:57:12   I don't know.

01:57:13   And if I had-- - Yeah, and the iPhone X

01:57:14   is 3X too, so it's gonna be different.

01:57:17   - So even if it's pen-tiled though,

01:57:19   I feel though that it should be at least as sharp

01:57:22   as the 8 Plus.

01:57:23   I don't know, I had about 10 minutes with it in my hand

01:57:26   in the hands-on area, and to my not great eyes,

01:57:31   but good enough, it looked very good.

01:57:34   And I thought the color was excellent,

01:57:36   which is my big concern with all OLED screens.

01:57:39   I thought the color was totally,

01:57:41   and I saw it side by side with an iPhone 8,

01:57:45   and the color was just spot on.

01:57:48   So I don't know, I have no hesitation.

01:57:52   I can't wait to spend more time with it,

01:57:54   but I think it's a very nice display.

01:57:56   So the display's better. - Yeah, we got that.

01:58:01   Oh, both cameras are OIS now on the back.

01:58:05   - Only on the X though.

01:58:06   - Which is nice, only on the X, right?

01:58:08   But you were asking about differences.

01:58:10   And so that's one difference, the iPhone 8.

01:58:12   - And the telephoto on the X. - Telephoto is not stabilized.

01:58:15   - Yeah, and on the X, the telephoto lens is F2.4

01:58:20   as opposed to F2.8, which if you're not

01:58:23   photography nerd just means that it's one entire stop better in low light?

01:58:29   It's about like 36% I guess is the number that they cited. So the gains are not, you know,

01:58:37   it's not not unnoticeable. 36% is a bunch. So when you're shooting in low light with that

01:58:45   telephoto lens, like let's say at a concert, you know, trying to zoom into the stage,

01:58:49   that it might default to that telephoto

01:58:53   or use more of that telephoto data

01:58:54   'cause it'll be a little bit sharper.

01:58:56   Won't be jittery as much, especially with the OIS too.

01:59:01   - Right, yeah, so it's with even OIS aside,

01:59:05   it's a full stop faster and you have OIS

01:59:08   and OIS should add at least another stop.

01:59:10   So you should get at least two stops,

01:59:12   which is pretty significant.

01:59:14   Maybe more, depending on how good the OIS is.

01:59:18   but the camera's definitely better.

01:59:20   I think that from the time I spent with it,

01:59:24   it's even more of an embrace the camera bump

01:59:27   industrial design.

01:59:28   Like the bump is truly--

01:59:31   - Yes, it's got a straight,

01:59:32   like it comes straight out from the body

01:59:34   instead of having any hint of a bezel.

01:59:36   - Yeah.

01:59:37   - 'Cause like the, or a--

01:59:39   - Slope?

01:59:40   - I guess I would say call it a slope, right.

01:59:41   'Cause it's not, it's a slope with an additional camper

01:59:44   on top of it, but the, or chamfer?

01:59:46   I never know which one it is.

01:59:48   But this, on the 8, it's straight up out of the body,

01:59:53   out of the glass back.

01:59:53   It's like bang, you know, like here it is.

01:59:56   - Yeah.

01:59:57   Trying to think what else.

02:00:01   Even just in 10 minutes, you could,

02:00:02   and it was nice because in a hands-on area,

02:00:05   you could pick both up side by side.

02:00:06   It's heavier than like an iPhone 8.

02:00:10   I don't know if it's as heavy as the Plus,

02:00:12   but the Plus feels so much bigger in hand

02:00:14   because it's so much wider.

02:00:15   But I think it's just the nature of using stainless steel

02:00:19   for the sides instead of aluminum.

02:00:21   It's not like it's too heavy, like wow,

02:00:23   it's not like I'm telling people this is a reason

02:00:26   not to buy the 10, but to me it's heavy

02:00:29   in the premium sense.

02:00:31   Sort of like the way that the stainless steel watch

02:00:33   is heavier than the aluminum Apple watch.

02:00:36   It's not like you feel like you have a weight on your arm,

02:00:39   but you just feel like you have a premium watch

02:00:41   on your wrist instead of a regular watch.

02:00:45   - Yep, yep, exactly.

02:00:49   Just a little bit heftier.

02:00:51   And because it's not as large as the A+,

02:00:54   the A+ may feel, as you mentioned, more heavy

02:00:57   because if you're holding it,

02:00:58   especially if you're holding it from the bottom,

02:01:00   'cause I think most people,

02:01:01   when you pick up the iPhone 8+,

02:01:03   you're gonna hold it from the bottom,

02:01:04   and the leverage or balance of the phone,

02:01:08   it's gonna be top heavy.

02:01:09   And so you have more exertion there holding it upright

02:01:13   than you do with the X.

02:01:16   - Yeah, bottom line, I think, is if you're on the fence,

02:01:20   if there's anything, you know, if you're thinking,

02:01:22   I think I want the iPhone X, but I don't know,

02:01:25   you want the iPhone X.

02:01:27   But on the other hand, the iPhone 8 is, you know,

02:01:30   it's really good.

02:01:32   I don't know, it's so,

02:01:33   I have no idea how this is gonna play out.

02:01:35   One thing we know as we record,

02:01:38   they've been on sale for two or three days.

02:01:40   They're still available.

02:01:40   If you, you know, iPhone 8 is on sale,

02:01:42   iPhone X is not going on sale till late October,

02:01:44   but if you go to buy an iPhone 8 or 8 Plus today,

02:01:47   you can still get it on launch day.

02:01:50   So, and that is unlike years past,

02:01:53   where quickly, sometimes within minutes,

02:01:56   it switches from same day, launch day delivery

02:01:59   to two to three weeks or four weeks or something like that.

02:02:02   So that's not the case.

02:02:04   But I don't think that's surprising,

02:02:06   because I feel like the overwhelming number of the 100,

02:02:11   hundreds of millions of iPhones that get sold every year

02:02:15   go to normal people who just feel like

02:02:17   they're buying a nice iPhone.

02:02:19   And that the number of people who really, really care

02:02:22   about having the newest iPhone on the first possible day,

02:02:25   it's easy to, 'cause we all talk to each other on Twitter

02:02:31   and on podcasts and we read their sites

02:02:34   and it's easy for people to overestimate just how many,

02:02:39   I don't think that Apple's going to have a hard time

02:02:42   selling the iPhone 8 and 8 Plus,

02:02:44   but I'm not surprised that they,

02:02:47   I'm also not surprised that they didn't sell out already.

02:02:50   Because I feel like the people who are gonna sell out

02:02:51   a launch weekend thing are all gonna wait for the 10.

02:02:54   - Right, yeah, the people that have to have

02:02:58   the newest thing, the iPhone 10 is technically

02:03:01   three minutes newer, so. (laughs)

02:03:04   They're gonna want that.

02:03:06   (laughs)

02:03:08   It's a twins joke.

02:03:12   Yeah, I think that's right.

02:03:15   I think that there's going to be a contingent of people that are buying this early that

02:03:19   are really just going to gravitate towards the X because of who they are, what kind of

02:03:21   buyer they are, what kind of user they are.

02:03:24   I think that there are some people going like, so I was asking, I asked a couple of people

02:03:29   while I was there.

02:03:30   Horace Didier was there, analyst extraordinaire, and Ben Meharian, also an analyst.

02:03:36   And I asked them both what they thought about the gap between the pre-orders, between the

02:03:42   iPhone 8 and 8 Plus and the X, and whether it would hurt Apple or how it would affect

02:03:47   their guidance or quarters or whatever.

02:03:51   And Ben said that the guidance that they gave last time was so wide, so broad, that it basically

02:03:57   indicates to him that they don't know.

02:04:00   They don't know exactly what the mix will be and that the guidance was so wide as to

02:04:04   give them latitude so that it wasn't like, "Oh, they missed their guidance," or whatever.

02:04:08   It was just like very wide in terms of range. So it could be, "Oh, we sold a ton of tents.

02:04:15   The mix is going to trend later and miss this quarter." Or, "We sold a ton of eights and

02:04:21   it's going to hit this quarter versus next quarter." But I asked Horace the same thing,

02:04:27   what he thought was a problem, and he said he didn't really think so. As long as it got

02:04:31   I heard before Christmas, both models,

02:04:33   that it really wouldn't affect the quarter that matters,

02:04:35   which is Q1.

02:04:35   And I have a semi-informed as well opinion

02:04:42   or feeling, whatever you wanna call it,

02:04:47   that they don't care.

02:04:48   That if you buy a 10 instead of an eight,

02:04:51   the answer is, okay, what do they care?

02:04:54   They don't care.

02:04:55   They're fine with it either way.

02:04:57   It's not that they're hoping to sell a ton of one

02:04:59   or not the other, they're completely fine.

02:05:02   I'm sure they have an idea of what they wanna sell

02:05:04   or whatever, but a lot of people forget

02:05:06   that Apple, under Tim Cook, one of the superpowers,

02:05:10   is that it can have as little as two weeks of inventory

02:05:13   at any given time.

02:05:15   That is an enormous tactical advantage

02:05:18   when you're releasing serialized devices.

02:05:21   'Cause you can go, hey, let's just hold off on producing,

02:05:24   let's produce 20% less, and that change gets

02:05:27   into your inventory channel within two weeks.

02:05:30   It's not months where you're eating like tons of devices

02:05:34   like Samsung, which was like shuffling devices around

02:05:37   at one point, trying to get them into carrier channels

02:05:39   to like bolster their quarter,

02:05:41   and then the next quarter was like down in the dumps.

02:05:44   So that's that advantage they have.

02:05:46   - Yeah, and obviously the shipping delay

02:05:49   on the iPhone 10 is not perfect.

02:05:52   I'm sure that in a perfect world,

02:05:54   it would be the pre-orders for both would have been

02:05:57   the same day and they'd both be coming out

02:06:00   at the end of next week.

02:06:01   But I got the sense talking to people at Apple

02:06:05   that it is what it is and this is what happens

02:06:08   when you're pedal to the metal trying to do the most

02:06:12   that you can't, you know, that this happens.

02:06:15   That if we never miss a ship date, if we never miss a goal,

02:06:18   that means we're not trying hard enough.

02:06:20   - Yes, yes, exactly.

02:06:24   If you hit it every time, it means that you let off the pedal

02:06:27   somewhere along the line.

02:06:28   - And I think-- - And to hit a target

02:06:31   within two weeks or four weeks from three years away,

02:06:35   that's pretty good.

02:06:36   - Well, and let's-- - We hit two different

02:06:38   projects within a gap.

02:06:40   - Well, let's see though. - Not bad.

02:06:41   - 'Cause one thing we don't know, and I'm sure,

02:06:44   not sure, but given that it's late,

02:06:46   it's obviously difficult to produce.

02:06:50   I'm pretty sure that every time Apple is late

02:06:55   on delivering hardware, it also is,

02:07:00   they can't meet demand immediately.

02:07:03   So I'm almost certain, I would be shocked

02:07:06   if this thing goes on sale on,

02:07:09   I don't know what day of the week it is,

02:07:10   if it's like midnight Pacific on a Thursday in October

02:07:14   when it goes on sale,

02:07:15   if by like the time you wake up Friday morning,

02:07:17   it's four to six weeks delivery.

02:07:19   Let's see how many they actually ship

02:07:22   before the end of the calendar year.

02:07:23   But I get the sense too,

02:07:25   that whatever that means for Q1,

02:07:28   if a lot of them don't get into,

02:07:30   even if you pre-order right away late October,

02:07:34   you may not get it until December or something.

02:07:38   It's very likely to me

02:07:42   that it might not be till January or February

02:07:45   where they catch up with demand,

02:07:47   but even so, they're gonna,

02:07:48   If they sell the same X number of iPhone 10s

02:07:52   in the 12 months, so be it.

02:07:56   It's still, they're just not that quarterly driven.

02:08:00   Yes, they wanna have a great holiday quarter

02:08:01   and they wanna deliver as many of them as they can

02:08:03   and I'm sure they're busting their asses

02:08:05   to make that possible.

02:08:07   But if they sell 100 million of the things in 12 months,

02:08:13   that's still 100 million of them sold in 12 months

02:08:16   and that's fun.

02:08:18   I guess the last thing, if we do talk about face ID, the thing, and I know I brought it

02:08:27   up with Federighi, but we can talk about it a little bit freer.

02:08:32   It was a little uncomfortable to bring it up that I spoke, you know, I have friends

02:08:35   who work at Apple and I, you know, at least two of them who have been disclosed and have

02:08:41   been carrying iPhone 10 around for a while, who I spoke to when I was out last week.

02:08:46   And they, again, and I have, however much I often say that Apple has never lied to me.

02:08:55   I've never been told a lie by Apple PR.

02:08:58   When I've spoken off the record with executives like Phil Schiller or whoever, I've never

02:09:04   been lied to.

02:09:06   It's part of the company.

02:09:07   It's why they have integrity like that.

02:09:10   And they have their view on the long run, right?

02:09:13   where they're not gonna tell a lie,

02:09:15   which would then make me mistrust everything

02:09:17   they tell me henceforth.

02:09:19   Have I ever been told things that I suspect are spin?

02:09:22   Of course, right?

02:09:23   They always try to put the best spin on things.

02:09:25   But when I talk to friends who work

02:09:26   in the lower levels in engineering, they don't spin.

02:09:29   They'll either not say anything or give me a look

02:09:33   or tell me what they really think about something.

02:09:37   Because why wouldn't they?

02:09:39   It's not their job to spin things.

02:09:42   what I've heard talking to people who've been,

02:09:44   had firsthand experience with Face ID

02:09:46   is that it works great.

02:09:48   It is like the facial, you know,

02:09:50   facial equivalent of Touch ID.

02:09:52   Once you get used to it, you can't go back.

02:09:55   And all of the people who are worried

02:09:57   that this is gonna suck,

02:09:58   and I really think Samsung in particular

02:10:00   really pissed in the well on this one

02:10:02   by shipping a shitty camera-based Face ID feature years ago,

02:10:09   which could be spoofed by a printout of a photo of you,

02:10:12   and which Samsung, knowing that it wasn't all that secure,

02:10:16   wouldn't let you do things like authorize payments with it.

02:10:19   It was only really used for unlocking the phone.

02:10:22   - Yeah, and they warn you that it's a convenience feature

02:10:25   and not a security feature and all this stuff,

02:10:27   but that's not the way people absorb that.

02:10:30   They just say, "Oh, face ID, facial recognition."

02:10:34   That's it, all phones in the same blanket.

02:10:36   - Can I vouch for it firsthand?

02:10:37   No, because I have never once used Face ID

02:10:40   because I couldn't set it up in the hands-on area

02:10:43   on a demo phone and I don't have a iPhone X yet.

02:10:48   So, you know, I can't vouch for it.

02:10:50   But based on what I've seen

02:10:52   and seeing people who do have it use it,

02:10:55   it really just works.

02:10:56   And the analogy is, I brought it up with Federighi

02:11:00   and I really think it's true.

02:11:01   Is it seems to me like it's exactly like the way

02:11:04   with the original iPhone back before,

02:11:06   in our naive days where people didn't even lock their phones

02:11:10   and it was just, you'd wake the phone

02:11:12   and there was a nice little thing there,

02:11:13   swipe to unlock and you swiped it and you were in.

02:11:16   And now you just pick up your phone

02:11:18   and because of the, what's the name of the feature

02:11:20   where it wakes up, the phone wakes up

02:11:23   just by the accelerometer, whatever they call it.

02:11:26   But you don't even have to hit the power button now.

02:11:28   Your phone just, the screen turns on

02:11:30   because it sees that you've picked it up

02:11:32   and you just swipe up from the bottom and you're in.

02:11:35   You don't have to think about the face ID part

02:11:36   because you just look at it and the face ID happens

02:11:39   and you just swipe up and you're in.

02:11:40   It seems great.

02:11:42   - Yeah, and that moment of first unlock or whatever,

02:11:50   that's the only thing that's really gonna convince anybody.

02:11:54   You could say it, so you're blue in the face,

02:11:56   you can ask people, and I ask people too,

02:11:58   and they were very positive about their experience

02:12:00   was over weeks or months.

02:12:02   But none of that really matters.

02:12:06   I think that they have, if anything,

02:12:10   is probably making Federighi grit his teeth

02:12:13   over the next four weeks is that people haven't tried it

02:12:16   and they're already assuming that it's crap.

02:12:18   And they're doing that because of the institutional

02:12:21   knowledge they have from unreliable systems of other types

02:12:25   that are in the same bucket.

02:12:27   - Which iPhone X do you think looks better?

02:12:29   - Mm.

02:12:31   - It's a hard one, but I don't know,

02:12:34   I'll probably have to go with black.

02:12:35   I just like the, 'cause I'm a Jet user, you know?

02:12:38   So like the Jet, it's the same thing as the Jet for me,

02:12:41   'cause it's all black.

02:12:42   - I'm gonna get black, but I've always gotten black,

02:12:48   and I always will get black, but I kind,

02:12:50   there's a part of me that wishes that the black one

02:12:52   had the same chrome sides as the white one,

02:12:56   'cause I really kinda like that pure chrome

02:12:59   stainless steel look on the first one.

02:13:02   - Yeah, and it's not chrome, it is stainless steel,

02:13:05   but it looks like chrome, and that's stainless steel,

02:13:07   so it's not a coating or anything like that,

02:13:09   it's just stainless steel.

02:13:10   - Yeah, I'm using chrome in the terms of that

02:13:12   it's just that sort of shiny, pure steel-colored steel

02:13:16   as opposed to the black, on the black one,

02:13:19   the sides are darkened somehow, it's space black

02:13:22   or whatever, space gray, whatever they're calling it.

02:13:25   They both look good and it's a very, very close call.

02:13:27   I've never bought a white one,

02:13:30   but the fact that the face on both is black

02:13:32   at least puts it into play for me

02:13:34   that I would maybe get the white one,

02:13:35   but boy, that really does look good.

02:13:38   I don't have anything else on iPhone 10.

02:13:40   I'm ready to move on.

02:13:41   - Yep. - All right.

02:13:43   Let me thank our third sponsor of the show.

02:13:45   It's our good friends at Audible.

02:13:48   Audible has an unmatched selection of audio books,

02:13:50   original audio shows, news, comedy, and more,

02:13:53   and you can get a 30 day free trial at audible.com/talkshow.

02:13:57   Just slash talk show.

02:13:59   If you wanna listen to it, Audible has it.

02:14:01   You can listen to audio books from virtually every genre,

02:14:04   anytime, anywhere, best sellers,

02:14:07   things from the back catalog.

02:14:09   And you can play Audible's audio books

02:14:12   on almost any device that you have.

02:14:14   Your phone, your tablet, your computer,

02:14:16   most modern Kindles and even iPods.

02:14:19   Remember iPods?

02:14:20   Audio books are great for flights,

02:14:22   They're great for long road trips,

02:14:24   and they are great for your daily commute.

02:14:26   If you run out of pod, I always say this,

02:14:29   you're listening to me tell you this,

02:14:31   you obviously are a consumer of spoken audio content.

02:14:36   Audible is the perfect sponsor for a podcast

02:14:39   because they can fill, if you ever think like,

02:14:41   man, I wish there were more podcasts.

02:14:42   Well, guess what?

02:14:43   Audible can fill all of that time in your commute

02:14:46   or wherever it is where you wish

02:14:47   you had more good stuff to listen to.

02:14:51   It's just truly great.

02:14:53   So with audiobooks and spoken word products,

02:14:56   you're gonna find what you're looking for at Audible.

02:14:58   And you can get a free 30 day trial

02:15:01   by signing up at audible.com/talkshow.

02:15:04   That's audible.com/talkshow.

02:15:06   And when you get that free trial,

02:15:09   you get your first audio book for free

02:15:10   and there's no stress or obligation.

02:15:12   You can cancel your membership at any time.

02:15:15   So you get a free book, you can't lose.

02:15:17   So go check them out.

02:15:19   I don't have nearly as much to say about the other products

02:15:21   that were announced.

02:15:22   I think they're interesting.

02:15:24   If we go backwards, what would be next?

02:15:26   I guess the watch--

02:15:27   - I got an hour and a half on the old watch bands.

02:15:32   I got time.

02:15:33   - I guess the, what was first, watch, I guess.

02:15:39   So I guess if we're gonna go backwards,

02:15:40   it would be Apple TV 4K.

02:15:42   Apple TV 4K is Apple TV.

02:15:45   It is faster because it has, I think it has the A10 now.

02:15:48   And it supports 4K and Apple is working with the studios to get all of the movies, you know,

02:15:54   in iTunes at 4K and they've already got Netflix at 4K and they've put a rubber ring around the

02:16:01   menu button on the remote. Oh yeah, I was wondering what that white thing was. So that's it. So that's

02:16:10   how they have fixed everybody's complaints about the remote control is they put a white rubber

02:16:15   ring around the menu button. So it does feel different. It's not just painted on. There is a sort of...

02:16:21   Like it's a physical thing. Yeah, it's a physical like rubbery ring around it.

02:16:26   And I guess that the theory is that helps orientation, right? Like so you know what direction you're grabbing it in.

02:16:31   But that was never really my problem. It's that it's as slippery as hell and like you can't really control it well.

02:16:39   I just think I being in stuff I really wish that they had made it asymmetric. I don't

02:16:44   know how but there should be some way that it is a nice looking remote and but I'm sure

02:16:50   there's some way that they could make it somehow like a wedge shape in a way or something that

02:16:56   would easily and no matter which way you pick it up would instantly let you know whether

02:17:01   it's forward or backwards. And I feel like now that you've still got to reach for the

02:17:05   the middle and figure out where menu is.

02:17:07   It's better, but it's like the least they could possibly do

02:17:10   to improve that remote.

02:17:12   - Yeah.

02:17:14   I don't know, I think a lot of the improvements

02:17:17   for the remote for me could come in software.

02:17:19   Like, you know, a little bit more of a snap to.

02:17:22   - Yeah.

02:17:23   - Which, you know, I haven't played with the new tvOS,

02:17:25   so maybe there is, but.

02:17:26   It's just like I have a lot of problems with the,

02:17:30   how fast it scrolls and how much of a snap there is,

02:17:34   'cause I'm never sure how far over to move my thumb

02:17:37   and all of that.

02:17:38   I don't know, it's just not a very good remote.

02:17:40   - Yeah.

02:17:41   I'm not surprised that Apple did this,

02:17:43   but to me the nicest part of the announcement

02:17:45   is that if you've already bought movies in HD,

02:17:49   when those movies that you've already bought

02:17:51   get 4K versions, you'll get 4K versions of them

02:17:55   because you've already bought 'em.

02:17:56   You don't have to worry about it.

02:17:57   And I feel, as somebody who has personally

02:18:00   pretty much entirely shifted from buying Blu-rays

02:18:03   to just buying movies on iTunes, just out of convenience.

02:18:08   It is, I'm very thankful for that

02:18:12   because that wouldn't be the case with the Blu-rays, right?

02:18:15   Like I'm going to get better looking,

02:18:17   all those movies that I've bought on iTunes,

02:18:19   instead of buying the Blu-ray,

02:18:21   I don't have a 4K TV yet, but when I do,

02:18:25   I'm going to get a better picture than I would

02:18:27   if I were still getting up

02:18:29   and physically putting discs in a player

02:18:33   Or if I had done the,

02:18:36   something I've never done was do the whole thing

02:18:38   where you rip them and somehow set up a media server

02:18:41   in your house.

02:18:42   Like, you know, upscaled 1080 is never gonna look as good

02:18:45   as 4K downloaded from, streamed from iTunes.

02:18:48   So, hooray to Apple for doing that.

02:18:51   - Yeah, that was easily, I feel, the best feature

02:18:56   of the Apple TV 4K, right?

02:18:58   'Cause like, you know, 4K is a standard,

02:19:00   And yes, Apple can argue, and I'm sure they will, that their implementation of it is pristine

02:19:07   and they're doing a good job, all this blah, blah, blah.

02:19:10   But 4K is really a sort of binary choice in a media player.

02:19:14   If your bit rates are strong, if your FPS is high, your Hertz is high, you're looking

02:19:21   at 4K, 60 Hertz, HDR in both acceptable formats, Dolby Vision and HD 10.

02:19:28   And WVision is sort of a super set of HD 10, but it all pans out to whatever your TV supports.

02:19:36   As long as you're doing all those things right, correctly, then it is what it is.

02:19:40   Like great.

02:19:41   You made yourself a relevant player for the next couple of years as 4K takes off.

02:19:48   So good.

02:19:49   Good job.

02:19:50   Like thank you.

02:19:51   But the treat, the flourish, the reveal is that deal.

02:19:56   You know, that whoever, Eddy Cue deal,

02:19:59   you know, where it's like, oh,

02:20:01   this is the promise of digital.

02:20:03   You buy a thing and it evolves with technology.

02:20:05   You don't buy a physical copy

02:20:06   and have to rebuy a physical copy.

02:20:08   And I'm sure that the arguments, the arm wrestles over

02:20:12   the not-- - With the studios.

02:20:15   - People not rebuying, yeah, with the studios,

02:20:17   were epic, you know, I'm sure they were.

02:20:20   As evidenced by the fact that Disney didn't buy in.

02:20:22   So Disney's not currently sold on that idea.

02:20:27   - The king of the back catalog, really.

02:20:29   - Right, really, exactly.

02:20:31   The king of re-releasing.

02:20:33   - And they were resistant from home video

02:20:35   right from the beginning.

02:20:37   Because they had this sort of historical strategy,

02:20:40   like I'm revealing my age,

02:20:41   because I don't, it just sounds ridiculous

02:20:44   by today's standards.

02:20:45   But when I was a kid, what Disney would do is,

02:20:50   I remember going to see Dumbo in the theater

02:20:54   and Dumbo was made in like, I don't know,

02:20:56   like 1940 something, I think.

02:20:58   And every like 10 years, they would make a big deal

02:21:01   and reissue one of the classics from their back catalog

02:21:04   with all of the promotional fanfare of a new release,

02:21:07   you know, TV commercials.

02:21:09   And it just like a first run release,

02:21:11   like here, we're gonna put Dumbo,

02:21:13   you know, this summer you can go see Dumbo

02:21:15   and, you know, made tons of money of her.

02:21:18   But that way, as a kid who was born in 1973,

02:21:22   I grew up and saw Dumbo and Bambi.

02:21:26   And I vividly remember Pinocchio.

02:21:28   Pinocchio I frickin' loved because that whole,

02:21:32   I don't know, I won't get into it,

02:21:34   but man, oh man, Pinocchio blew me away

02:21:36   'cause it was so dark, right?

02:21:38   - Yep. - Really dark.

02:21:39   I was like, I can't believe this.

02:21:41   This is like the sickest, this movie is sick.

02:21:44   (laughing)

02:21:46   - It's like a David Lynch Disney fairy tale.

02:21:49   - Yeah, that movie is fucked up.

02:21:51   It really is.

02:21:53   And I remember my sister was like,

02:21:55   my sister's two years younger than me,

02:21:56   and she was like messed up, but I loved it.

02:21:59   But I saw all those movies in the theater,

02:22:01   so they were resistant to it,

02:22:02   and I can see why they're resistant to it now.

02:22:04   But to me, the argument is, look, times change.

02:22:07   You know what I mean?

02:22:08   Just in the same way that like VHS and home movies changed,

02:22:14   It changed the world in the '80s,

02:22:17   and everybody had to get on board eventually.

02:22:19   Streaming services like Netflix, just to say Netflix,

02:22:23   but Netflix and all of the other Netflix-like services

02:22:28   around the world have changed things,

02:22:30   where there are fewer people who buy movies now.

02:22:32   There's a lot of people who,

02:22:34   if they're gonna watch something,

02:22:36   they just go to Netflix and watch the most interesting thing

02:22:40   that Netflix has available to them, and that's it.

02:22:42   and the idea of paying $4.99 to rent a movie

02:22:46   or $15 or whatever to buy a copy of the movie

02:22:51   so they can watch it multiple times

02:22:52   just never even, does not compute.

02:22:54   So I feel like for those of us like me

02:22:57   who are perfectly willing and happy to spend $15

02:23:00   to buy a copy of a movie

02:23:01   that I know I wanna watch several times,

02:23:03   you should work to keep me in that camp

02:23:08   as opposed to making me feel like a schmuck

02:23:10   who has to spend another 15 or $20

02:23:13   to buy a movie I just bought two years ago.

02:23:16   - Yeah, 'cause you're gonna be making more movies

02:23:17   and I'm gonna buy those.

02:23:18   - Right, and that's the best way I can say it.

02:23:21   If I have to spend $20 to get a 4K version of a movie

02:23:26   that I've already purchased from iTunes for $20,

02:23:29   I'm gonna feel like a schmuck doing it.

02:23:30   I'm either not gonna do it and just watch it upscaled,

02:23:33   or if I start watching it upscaled and I'm annoyed,

02:23:36   I'm gonna feel like a schmuck coughing up that 20 bucks.

02:23:38   And I feel like making me feel like a schmuck

02:23:40   is not a good way to encourage me

02:23:41   to keep doing what I'm doing.

02:23:43   - Right, yep, I agree.

02:23:46   And so hopefully they'll come around.

02:23:48   I mean, there's also, they've got, Disney by the way,

02:23:50   it's what I'm referring to,

02:23:52   but they've also got that, the movie streaming service,

02:23:56   you know, that they're launching, and like, you know.

02:23:58   So there's a lot of variables, and I get it,

02:24:00   but it seems like they should, you know,

02:24:02   should come around, but the fact that we got so much of it

02:24:06   right off the bat, and that I'll be able to,

02:24:09   And you and I and everybody who buys one will be able to launch their catalog and start

02:24:12   watching super crisp 4K stuff as long as their TV is already 4K.

02:24:17   That's great.

02:24:18   And I think that there is a little bit of market pressure built up and that people who

02:24:20   have been replacing their TVs over the last couple of years and if they did, they probably

02:24:24   got 4K.

02:24:25   You know, it was pretty expensive to buy a 4K TV in like, I don't know, 2014, 2013,

02:24:32   2014, but it hasn't really been off the charts expensive in a while now.

02:24:37   You can get a 4K TV starting at 350 bucks

02:24:40   if you're prepared for it not to be such a great 4K TV.

02:24:43   But even the high-end ones are still a couple of grand,

02:24:46   not 10,000.

02:24:48   - Right, yeah.

02:24:49   It's entering.

02:24:50   To me, I know that Apple TV debuting right now

02:24:55   is not the first 4K box that you can connect to your TV.

02:24:59   But to me, it feels like they timed this perfectly.

02:25:02   Fall 2017 is exactly the right time for Apple

02:25:04   to have a 4K Apple TV.

02:25:06   Like I don't think they're late to this at all

02:25:08   'cause I feel like you said,

02:25:09   like the prices on actual 4K TVs

02:25:13   are now entering normal people's,

02:25:15   this is what I feel like is a reasonable amount

02:25:16   to spend on a TV.

02:25:18   And if they came out next year,

02:25:19   I feel like it would be too late.

02:25:20   So I feel like the timing is right.

02:25:23   - For sure.

02:25:23   - I don't have anything else.

02:25:26   I guess there's the whole sports angle,

02:25:28   which is obviously,

02:25:29   that's really the only content thing

02:25:31   other than getting movies into 4K,

02:25:33   but the only real content angle on Apple TV,

02:25:37   or at least I guess it's more of a tvOS thing,

02:25:40   was the sports angle,

02:25:41   which I think is interesting as a sports fan,

02:25:43   but we'll see.

02:25:46   It certainly is one angle.

02:25:48   It's the one thing that they talked about on stage

02:25:50   that was about getting people to switch

02:25:52   from watching regular cable TV

02:25:55   to watching TV content, normal TV network content

02:26:00   through Apple TV instead.

02:26:02   Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, it- the enhanced version of TV that everybody's been trying to sell everybody forever, you know, here- this was their concession to that or their nod to that in this keynote, in this release cycle.

02:26:18   cycle. It looks cool. I mean, I think that they, you know, they executed right from what

02:26:26   I could see on the sports side of things. Like, oh, yeah, what's the score? Or I could

02:26:30   turn the scores off if I don't want to see them or, you know, that I could see where

02:26:35   in the game this is. So I know if I want to tune in or not. Those are all things that

02:26:39   the NFL has already proven out that people want with like Red Zone and stuff like that

02:26:43   and the big dish packages.

02:26:45   Until you get a major league to sign on to that

02:26:51   and to sign on to the kinds of enhancements

02:26:55   you want to deliver beyond just that little score thumbnail.

02:26:58   You know, if you want running stats

02:27:00   while the thing is open and all that,

02:27:01   like some of the apps already do,

02:27:03   like MLB's app already does it.

02:27:05   But once it's built into the tvOS level,

02:27:09   because those, you know, MLB only built

02:27:11   that really nice cool app so that you buy a subscription.

02:27:15   Like the fact that it's a nice cool app is a byproduct.

02:27:18   Thank you, right, for building a good app,

02:27:21   but in reality, they want you to subscribe,

02:27:23   which is legit, like that's their business.

02:27:26   So if Apple could say, look, what if we get you

02:27:28   the same amount of subscribers, but we wanna build

02:27:30   a lot of those features directly into the OS,

02:27:32   I don't think you're gonna find too many objections there.

02:27:35   So it's just a matter of getting the sign on.

02:27:37   And so right now, I believe the way it works is,

02:27:40   It's apps that A, enable this hook or whatever, and then B, that have live streams in them.

02:27:49   So it's pulling from whatever apps already do live stream.

02:27:52   There's not an additional deal being cut here to provide live streaming directly to

02:27:57   Apple TV or any of that.

02:27:59   It's just being pulled out of the apps and then this overlay is being put on top of it.

02:28:04   And when you click on one of them, it takes you to that app to watch it or whatever, which

02:28:07   is fine.

02:28:08   It's a way to get it done now.

02:28:11   But it just, if you look at it,

02:28:13   it just gives you that glimpse of the future

02:28:16   that I've always been convinced is what the whole,

02:28:20   I think of cracked it thing is about,

02:28:23   what Steve said about the Apple TV,

02:28:25   which is that a completely agnostic experience.

02:28:30   So whatever you wanna watch,

02:28:33   whenever you wanna watch it from whatever source,

02:28:36   It's all available in one interface built by people who are interface builders, not

02:28:41   by a network or a service or whatever.

02:28:44   And it's just like you go like a little, you know, I want to watch the Little House on

02:28:47   the Prairie right now.

02:28:48   And the system says, oh, well, you have access to Little House on the Prairie free.

02:28:52   So I'm just going to start playing it for you.

02:28:54   And if the system says, oh, you don't have a Little House on the Prairie, any services,

02:28:57   none of the services that you signed in for or your single sign on has Little House on

02:29:03   the Prairie, here's six options to buy it.

02:29:05   and click on one and face ID that or touch ID that

02:29:10   or whatever and boom, you're on your way.

02:29:14   And I think that that confidence level of being able

02:29:18   to deliver you a multitude of different content

02:29:21   across a bunch of different networks all in one interface,

02:29:24   it's just so far away yet because of the deals,

02:29:28   because of the nature of it.

02:29:30   - It is better than it used to be though.

02:29:31   I mean, and our family, we like to watch movies,

02:29:35   three of us and it is our habit now that if we decide

02:29:40   upon a movie, if we know if we aren't just browsing

02:29:43   and then like, oh yeah, let's watch that one as we browse.

02:29:45   If we have a movie in mind, we speak it to Siri

02:29:47   on the Apple TV just to see if we can already get it

02:29:50   from Netflix or Hulu where we have subscriptions for free

02:29:53   before we spend money doing it.

02:29:55   And it really does work great and it's become a habit.

02:30:00   And let me take this moment, I have a bit of follow up

02:30:03   from a previous show, it's two episodes ago,

02:30:06   counting the Craig Federighi show with Jim Dalrymple.

02:30:10   I pronounced the R-O-K-U competitor to Apple TV,

02:30:14   I pronounced it rock you.

02:30:16   And it's in fact pronounced Roku.

02:30:19   And the funny part-- - You pronounced it rock you?

02:30:21   - Yes.

02:30:22   And the funny-- - Wow.

02:30:24   - The funny part about that-- - That's great, I love it.

02:30:25   - The funny part-- - That's such a good name.

02:30:27   - Well, the funny part about it is,

02:30:28   at least a year ago or more, I mentioned it on the show,

02:30:33   and I called it Rock You, and I got the feedback

02:30:36   from listeners that, and they always say like,

02:30:39   I don't know if you're just fucking with me or what.

02:30:42   (laughing)

02:30:43   But in, and the first time I did it,

02:30:45   I did think it was called Rock You.

02:30:46   I just, I looked at it and thought it was Rock You.

02:30:50   And when I said it with Jim last week,

02:30:53   my instinct was to pronounce it Roku,

02:30:58   and I thought, wait, but I know I pronounced it wrong.

02:31:01   I better say it the other way around.

02:31:03   And so I said, "Rock you," thinking that I was correcting myself.

02:31:07   But in fact, I had internalized the Roku pronunciation, but my apologize to

02:31:11   everyone. And, but that really was my thought process. And I'm not screwing with you.

02:31:15   I don't have anything else on Apple TV. We're going long.

02:31:21   We have Apple Watch to talk about. I don't have a lot to say about it. I mean,

02:31:26   it's, I think it's, I think the whole cellular thing is, is,

02:31:31   I didn't even set it on stage.

02:31:33   This was our vision from the beginning.

02:31:35   And I'm not saying they shipped it too early.

02:31:37   I'm not saying they should have waited until now.

02:31:40   And in the big picture,

02:31:43   I do feel like Apple Watch gets such a bad rap.

02:31:46   And I'm not the biggest fan of Apple Watch.

02:31:49   I didn't even take mine to California

02:31:50   'cause I thought, I don't wanna have the charger.

02:31:54   I don't know.

02:31:55   And I have mechanical watches that I like and love.

02:31:58   And so no matter what, I like to switch my watch around

02:32:00   But I see so many people wearing Apple Watch on a daily basis.

02:32:04   I can't believe that people try to crack jokes about it.

02:32:09   Because the whole thing where the Boston Red Sox were caught using an Apple Watch in a dugout

02:32:14   as part of a scheme to steal signals from other teams.

02:32:17   And the joke that was on Twitter with like 12,000 retweets and all sorts of likes

02:32:22   was the real story here is that somebody finally found a use for Apple Watch.

02:32:26   and people want to believe that.

02:32:29   But I can't believe it 'cause I know so many people

02:32:33   who it is their fitness tracker of choice.

02:32:36   It's true that it was more ambitious at the start

02:32:41   and they weren't sure what it was good for

02:32:44   and they talked more about apps

02:32:45   and going to that honeycomb app screen and launching apps.

02:32:49   And they've narrowed it down to the two obvious things

02:32:53   that the watch is really good for,

02:32:55   which is notifications and fitness tracking.

02:32:57   And they keep making both of those better.

02:33:00   And I see so many just regular people

02:33:03   on the streets of Philadelphia or San Francisco

02:33:06   or the airport who are wearing Apple Watch.

02:33:09   It's super popular.

02:33:11   And Cook even said in the thing that it's now,

02:33:15   presumably by revenue, they never say

02:33:16   when they have this list of top watches in Apple is now,

02:33:19   was number two behind Rolex.

02:33:21   If Rolex was number one, it has to be revenue

02:33:24   because it can't be quantity because there's no way

02:33:27   Rolex is the number one watch by quantity.

02:33:31   Has to be by revenue.

02:33:32   And however they've computed this,

02:33:35   they now are the number one watch company by revenue,

02:33:38   presumably in the world.

02:33:39   I don't get the hate on Apple Watch.

02:33:42   Like I totally get it if you're not into it.

02:33:45   Like I said, I'm personally not super into it.

02:33:48   I like it.

02:33:49   I really love the unlock my Mac with it feature,

02:33:52   which is why I wear it usually like on a work day.

02:33:54   It's killer.

02:33:56   So the way I look at it is like, you know, I agree with you completely.

02:34:00   Obviously, this has been gone over ad nauseam by a lot of smart people that, you know, they

02:34:05   were sort of, we don't know what people are going to like, you know, initially when

02:34:09   they launched it.

02:34:10   We don't know which portion of this is the killer feature.

02:34:15   And over the last two generations, they have figured it out.

02:34:17   It's fitness.

02:34:18   Fitness is the killer feature, period.

02:34:20   The rest of the stuff is icing.

02:34:22   And that icing is getting good.

02:34:23   You know, there's some good stuff about that icing.

02:34:25   Honestly, the cellular edition is another piece of icing.

02:34:29   It's like, hey, take your workouts and take the anxiety you have of being away from your phone

02:34:35   so that if your kid's preschool calls, you're not in the middle of your run,

02:34:40   and you've got your phone flapping against your leg the whole time

02:34:42   because you're just convinced that some emergency might happen,

02:34:45   boom, you've got it right on your wrist.

02:34:46   You can at least call and say, "Okay, cool, I'm going to get in my car and I'll be right over," or whatever.

02:34:50   "I'm coming back."

02:34:51   And it takes a layer of anxiety of being separated from your phone out of it, which whatever

02:35:00   you want to say about modern life, I don't care, but people are addicted to their phones.

02:35:03   And not just because they want to waste time on them, but because they connect them to

02:35:08   the rest of the world, families and all of that.

02:35:11   You and I were talking about this last week, but I'll repeat it for everybody who wasn't

02:35:15   in your car with us.

02:35:17   But I realized that from thousands of years,

02:35:21   mankind survived with children

02:35:26   wherein you couldn't communicate with them

02:35:28   if you were out of earshot, right?

02:35:30   Like, you'd only find out how your kid was doing

02:35:33   if you were within the distance where you could hear them

02:35:36   or they could hear you.

02:35:37   And we survived.

02:35:39   But guess what?

02:35:40   - How do you get them to come home?

02:35:41   You yell, you holler.

02:35:42   - A lot of kids did die, though,

02:35:43   during those thousands of years.

02:35:45   Like I'm not a worry warp parent.

02:35:47   I don't think my wife is either.

02:35:49   I think we're maybe even more relaxed

02:35:52   than many of our peers.

02:35:54   But we do live in a cell phone world now

02:35:58   and now that we have them, it is like,

02:36:01   so my example is that Amy's not super into this stuff.

02:36:05   Why would she be?

02:36:07   But we went out to dinner before,

02:36:10   the last weekend before I flew out

02:36:11   and just as part of the conversation,

02:36:13   I just sort of gave an overview of what we expected.

02:36:16   I mean, pretty much came up in the context of that leak

02:36:18   from the OSGM.

02:36:21   And like, here's what we already know.

02:36:23   And when I said that, I think,

02:36:26   it looks like Apple Watch is gonna get cellular.

02:36:29   And the way I think it will work

02:36:30   is you'll just pair it with your phone

02:36:32   and you won't have to worry about it.

02:36:34   I guessed how it was actually going to work,

02:36:37   where you don't get a new phone number

02:36:38   and people have to call your watch.

02:36:39   You just separate yourself from your phone.

02:36:42   And she said, "So you mean I could go to the gym

02:36:44   "and leave my phone in the locker,

02:36:47   "and if the school calls, it'll come to my wrist?"

02:36:49   And I said, "Yes."

02:36:50   And she goes, "Well, then I need that."

02:36:52   And so for example, she still has an original Apple Watch.

02:36:55   And when Apple Watch 2 came out last year,

02:36:57   she saw no reason to upgrade.

02:36:58   And as soon as she heard this,

02:37:01   she instantly was like, "Well, I need that."

02:37:03   And specifically in the context of a week like last week

02:37:06   where I was gonna be away for a couple days.

02:37:09   because ordinarily, she doesn't feel so bad

02:37:12   being away from her phone,

02:37:14   where her phone's in the locker at the gym

02:37:16   and she's upstairs, because she knows

02:37:18   that if something happens, they're gonna call me too.

02:37:20   And I'm around.

02:37:23   But like last week when I'm in California,

02:37:24   it's just low-level anxiety.

02:37:27   It's not like she refuses to go to the gym

02:37:30   if I'm in California, it's just though

02:37:32   that in the back of her head, she's like,

02:37:34   in the back of her head, she's worried

02:37:36   that her phone is going off in her locker downstairs.

02:37:39   I think it's a killer feature.

02:37:40   I really do.

02:37:41   Soterios Johnson Yeah, I do too.

02:37:44   And I think that that addition of that layer of anxiety pill or removal or whatever is

02:37:53   going to appeal to a lot of people because as Apple said, like this is their vision,

02:37:57   whatever, it feels logical.

02:37:59   Like it just feels logical that this computer on your wrist should be independent.

02:38:04   You know, the tether model is going to the dogs

02:38:08   or by the wayside or whatever analogy you want to use.

02:38:11   The tether model is gone.

02:38:13   - Right.

02:38:13   - You know, this whole idea of like this thing

02:38:15   has to exist in conjunction with this other thing.

02:38:19   About the only thing I think is gonna really

02:38:21   be pervasive over the next couple of years

02:38:25   is the AirPods because they're just,

02:38:27   they don't know how to make them independent yet.

02:38:29   - Yeah.

02:38:30   - You know, but at some point, if you could put an AirPod

02:38:31   in and stream Apple Music directly to it,

02:38:33   Like maybe the case is the cellular radio.

02:38:35   As long as you have the case in your pocket,

02:38:37   because you've got to have that anyway to charge.

02:38:39   And then it streams to your AirPods or whatever.

02:38:41   I don't know what the hell they're going to do.

02:38:43   But I could see them making them independent or wanting to.

02:38:48   And so the watch has always felt that way.

02:38:50   It's always felt logical to have a cellular radio in there.

02:38:53   Now they figured out how to do it

02:38:55   while making the watch exactly the same thickness

02:38:57   and then a little bump on the back,

02:38:59   like a couple of millimeters or a millimeter picker

02:39:01   or something less.

02:39:02   I thought that he said tiny bit bigger.

02:39:04   I could I have to rewatch it.

02:39:05   I could swear that what he said was that it's two tenths of one millimeter thicker.

02:39:12   I think that's what he said.

02:39:13   I say a couple of millimeters, but yeah, it was not that.

02:39:16   It was smaller than a millimeter.

02:39:18   And if that's literally what Jeff Williams said, again, hats off to Apple for having

02:39:21   the integrity of actually admitting it publicly, you know, because I think two tenths of one

02:39:26   millimeter you could legitimately get away with.

02:39:28   It's the exact same size.

02:39:31   - Whereas two millimeters. - But then you know,

02:39:31   you get the guy with this caliper out.

02:39:34   - Right. (laughing)

02:39:36   Starting a class action lawsuit.

02:39:39   - Yeah, exactly.

02:39:40   - Yeah.

02:39:42   And you know, let's acknowledge it.

02:39:44   It's reasonably priced, but it isn't cheap.

02:39:48   Like, it seems like most of the carriers

02:39:50   are gonna charge you $10 a month

02:39:52   for the privilege of using this.

02:39:54   So that is $120 a year that you're just, you know,

02:39:56   in addition to the 400 bucks you pay

02:39:59   for the watch in the first place.

02:40:01   That is, in some ways, it makes it a premium product,

02:40:06   but I thought, I'm not surprised by that at all.

02:40:10   I thought no way in hell is any carrier

02:40:12   going to let you do this for free,

02:40:14   and it seems to me like in my experience

02:40:16   with AT&T and Verizon, anytime you wanna add,

02:40:20   quote unquote, add a device to a plan, it's 10 bucks.

02:40:24   - Yeah.

02:40:26   So it is what it is, but I am I going to get one?

02:40:30   I don't know. Cause I don't wear it every day. I don't know.

02:40:33   But Amy was a sure thing. A hundred percent. I'm on, you know,

02:40:36   she's on board and I think I probably will too.

02:40:39   What about the red dot?

02:40:42   I like get it, but I don't get it. I wish it wasn't there.

02:40:48   And I think it's going to be silly with some bands.

02:40:51   I just think it's not a great choice to be honest.

02:40:55   like if they're to differentiate the cellular watch,

02:40:58   but in my opinion, the cellular watch is differentiated

02:41:01   by the fact that it's cellular.

02:41:02   I don't know what their vision is

02:41:04   that people have multiple watches

02:41:05   and they wanna make sure to grab the cellular one,

02:41:07   I don't know.

02:41:08   - I don't get it.

02:41:10   I did notice in person that it isn't,

02:41:14   I mean, it's obviously red if you're looking for it,

02:41:16   but it doesn't seem to jump out as much

02:41:18   as it does in some of their photos,

02:41:19   but exactly for the reason that you just said,

02:41:21   like black is a neutral color.

02:41:25   It's arguably the neutral color.

02:41:29   And so having black on that side of the crown

02:41:33   goes with every strap you could possibly,

02:41:37   and/or watch face that you choose,

02:41:40   whereas red is a very, I don't know,

02:41:43   it doesn't go with everything.

02:41:45   I don't hate it.

02:41:46   It certainly wouldn't keep me from buying the watch,

02:41:48   but I do find it a little curious.

02:41:51   - Yeah, I mean, red goes with a gray band or a black band

02:41:55   You can even say it might go with a pink band,

02:41:58   but it doesn't go with an orange band.

02:42:00   - Right, right, orange is a perfect example, right.

02:42:03   It's just a little weird, I don't know.

02:42:05   So Tim Cook's been wearing,

02:42:08   and I've seen just a handful of other Apple Exists,

02:42:11   but Cook's is the one who's conspicuous

02:42:12   'cause it's been photographed.

02:42:13   He's been photographed with a stainless steel Apple Watch

02:42:16   with a red thing on the crown for, I don't know,

02:42:20   like a year and a half, from even before series two.

02:42:24   And it's, you know, other people have noticed this,

02:42:28   like, do you think he's been wearing

02:42:29   a prototype cellular watch for in 18 months?

02:42:32   Or do you think red just used to mean special?

02:42:35   Because the original edition gold ones had red there too.

02:42:39   I think it was just something special.

02:42:42   I don't think he had a prototype cellular one.

02:42:44   I think it's possible, but I feel like,

02:42:46   I feel like there's, the engineering couldn't have been

02:42:49   there back then, even at a prototype level.

02:42:51   - I think it's a little far out.

02:42:53   - Yeah. - Just my gut.

02:42:54   That's just a gut feeling, yeah.

02:42:56   - Anything else on Apple Watch?

02:43:00   I will say this.

02:43:02   There was a black, the older,

02:43:05   the first generation of the nylon,

02:43:07   their nylon watch straps, woven nylon,

02:43:11   there was a black one that I bought,

02:43:13   which is my favorite Apple Watch strap ever.

02:43:15   I just like the way it looks,

02:43:17   and I also find it extremely comfortable

02:43:18   in all weather and situations.

02:43:20   And in fact, I've worn it so much

02:43:23   that it's worn a little bit.

02:43:25   Like it doesn't look bad,

02:43:26   but it's obviously showing a little bit of wear.

02:43:28   And I've been thinking in the back of my head,

02:43:31   I should buy another one of those just to have it,

02:43:33   because I think that all of these type of straps

02:43:36   are limited edition.

02:43:39   And lo and behold- - Yeah, they come and go.

02:43:40   - Yeah, lo and behold, that one's gone.

02:43:43   But I did find one the other day on bestbuy.com,

02:43:45   I was still selling them, so I quick ordered one.

02:43:48   But I think that there are totally,

02:43:51   I think that that must be, if you're like a designer,

02:43:54   I think that must be such a fun team to work on.

02:43:56   'Cause I feel like they are having so much fun

02:43:59   doing like a variety of watch straps

02:44:03   that change every six months.

02:44:04   And really running the gamut from playful

02:44:08   to subtle to elegant.

02:44:13   - Yeah, well the new Velcro ones they showed off there,

02:44:19   You know, it's just, it's, (laughs)

02:44:22   it just makes sense that if Apple's gonna do a Velcro watch,

02:44:25   the entire band's Velcro.

02:44:26   - Right.

02:44:27   - Like the entire band is the loop.

02:44:29   - Right.

02:44:30   - The Velcro hooks to, you know, the loop material.

02:44:32   Like it's not a patch.

02:44:34   Almost every Velcro watch,

02:44:36   it's there's a patch of contact material that's the loops.

02:44:39   And then you have the Velcro hook material on the other side.

02:44:44   And the Apple way is to go like,

02:44:46   nope, we're gonna make the entire thing loop.

02:44:48   So you can attach it anywhere you want.

02:44:50   And they know most of the band's not gonna be used.

02:44:52   But at the same time, it gives them

02:44:53   infinite adjustability and continuity of look.

02:44:57   The whole thing looks the same.

02:44:59   And from what I felt there, it's kinda fuzzy.

02:45:02   - Yeah, it feels very nice.

02:45:04   I'm not a Velcro kind of guy, but I have to say,

02:45:07   it's the nicest Velcro I have ever seen in my life by far.

02:45:11   It's the first time I've ever seen Velcro

02:45:12   and thought, this is really nice Velcro.

02:45:17   In fact, I even wonder, is Velcro like a trademark,

02:45:20   like Kleenex?

02:45:22   I wonder if it even--

02:45:23   - Well, that's a good question, I don't know.

02:45:24   - I wonder if it technically is Velcro with a trademark

02:45:27   or whether it's like a Velcro-like, you know,

02:45:31   scratchy side on one thing and soft side on the other.

02:45:34   - Yeah, but it is definitely a registered trademark, Velcro.

02:45:37   So I think you have to use like hook and loop fastener

02:45:40   or something like that.

02:45:42   - All right, well, I'm about at the end of my list.

02:45:45   There was one last thing in the keynote.

02:45:46   - Oh, I guess we could talk about

02:45:47   the opening Steve Jobs tribute

02:45:48   if we're gonna go backwards.

02:45:50   I mean, and there's the Angela Orange thing.

02:45:52   The Angela Orange thing was interesting.

02:45:53   I don't know what else to say about it though.

02:45:56   I mean, it's like, you know,

02:45:57   here's their new flagship stores.

02:45:59   They are architecturally fantastic.

02:46:01   They are obviously of the same architectural design language

02:46:05   as the Steve Jobs theater itself and the new campus.

02:46:10   You know, it's obviously one cohesive architectural language

02:46:15   that they're using around the world,

02:46:16   including at their campus.

02:46:18   But I don't know what else to say other than that.

02:46:22   - Yeah, I mean, I think there's some controversy

02:46:24   over calling it town halls or whatever.

02:46:26   - Or town squares.

02:46:28   - Town squares, there you go.

02:46:29   And I mean, I'm not the right person

02:46:31   to debate civic responsibility

02:46:36   and adoption of those things,

02:46:39   co-option of those things by corporations.

02:46:44   I get the arguments.

02:46:45   I don't know, it didn't strike me as particularly egregious, but there, you know, some people

02:46:50   are getting all mad about it.

02:46:51   But I think that they're already, if you go to like the one in San Francisco that is already

02:46:57   converted over to that new model of that town square model or whatever, whereas like indoor

02:47:03   out as the patio area and the big doors that open so people can walk through it and all

02:47:12   that stuff.

02:47:13   Like I get it, they're co-opting something that is theoretically public space, but it

02:47:17   is private property and it is a corporate drive.

02:47:20   They're trying to sell products and all that stuff.

02:47:23   But I think they did a pretty decent job of making those things feel like they had a variety

02:47:31   to them that didn't exist in Apple stores before.

02:47:34   I think it did at one point, like when a lot of the stores had theaters and stuff like

02:47:38   that, you felt like there was always something going on you could go there and see.

02:47:42   but I think it hasn't felt like that in a while.

02:47:44   And I think that you're now kind of seeing them

02:47:48   try to return to that a little bit

02:47:49   and bring back the fact that like,

02:47:51   hey, you got other things to do here than just buy stuff.

02:47:54   - I don't get the controversy over it.

02:47:55   I feel like it doesn't matter which company it is,

02:47:58   but if you have a retail space,

02:47:59   you can either have it be like,

02:48:02   you're either, make it feel like you're either in here

02:48:04   to buy something or you can either come here

02:48:07   to buy something or you can be on our property

02:48:10   for a free reason, you know, to see a show

02:48:13   or to have a class or just to hang out

02:48:15   and sit on a bench and feel welcome doing it.

02:48:18   So I don't see how that that ladder

02:48:21   is worse than the former, right?

02:48:24   Like, how is that not better?

02:48:26   And secondarily, I don't think that it was implied

02:48:29   in any way that they're going around

02:48:31   and telling cities around the world,

02:48:33   like, "Scratch your, you know, get rid of your public parks.

02:48:36   "We'll take care of it."

02:48:37   - Exactly.

02:48:38   You know, they're not trying to replace public parks.

02:48:40   You know, they're saying that in addition to the public parks

02:48:43   that these cities already have, we're

02:48:44   going to have a space that's welcome to the people.

02:48:47   I don't get it.

02:48:48   So I don't--

02:48:49   Yeah, I thought it was really great to see her on the stage,

02:48:52   regardless.

02:48:52   Yes.

02:48:53   It did answer--

02:48:54   Really, really nice to see her out there.

02:48:55   Yeah.

02:48:56   That was-- it was the answer to the longstanding question

02:48:59   of when is Angela Arnn's going to be on stage at an event.

02:49:03   a cynical part of my mind says that maybe,

02:49:06   if not for Angela Ahrendts,

02:49:11   I don't think there would have been any women

02:49:12   from Apple on stage at that event,

02:49:14   unless I'm forgetting somebody who did a demo,

02:49:16   but I don't think so.

02:49:17   Because it was truly the only,

02:49:19   but it wasn't like there was a cavalcade of men either.

02:49:22   It was really just Cook, Schiller, Federighi, Q,

02:49:26   and Jeff Williams.

02:49:27   And as I've said many times,

02:49:32   they don't pick people to do the segments that the people who come out for the segments

02:49:35   of the people who are in charge of them, you know, and so Angela aren't isn't going

02:49:38   to be on stage until they decide to speak about retail on stage. And lo and behold,

02:49:42   what she was there to talk about was retail. But she was super great. That's, that's

02:49:47   the thing people have been itching to see her on stage because they've seen her speak

02:49:50   in public places on videos and stuff before and she's obviously a very dynamic, engaging

02:49:54   personality. And so, you know, it, you know, the capability was obviously there.

02:50:00   And I think the people in the fashion world who knew her before, as the CEO of Bribri,

02:50:06   and then also the people who are paid to sort of think about these things and know these

02:50:11   things know that she was the CEO of a major fashion corporation and effectively took what

02:50:18   you might consider a downgraded position, but certainly an upgraded, outsized impact

02:50:23   and influence and size of job.

02:50:26   I think size of job wise, bigger job, hands down.

02:50:30   But it was good to see her out there because I think that she's just like an enormously

02:50:35   capable executive and has been doing a lot in getting her to present her work.

02:50:42   Getting to see her present her work is always a treat.

02:50:44   It's always nice to see people, as you said, who have done the work and who have been in

02:50:48   the trenches working on a product, you know, present that product.

02:50:52   And I think it showed that she had done a bunch of presentations around the world.

02:50:57   I've been at a couple of, I think it's one of them, she did local presentations at

02:51:02   the stores themselves.

02:51:04   And she's been doing some of that, but we hadn't seen her on the stage proper.

02:51:07   And I think she, you know, she felt very comfortable up there and obviously, you know, was presenting

02:51:12   things she had worked on closely.

02:51:14   I found this interesting link, this fashion blog called The Fashion Law had written about

02:51:20   her out there.

02:51:22   And they were, you know, obviously saying, you know, she's an executive who's presenting

02:51:27   her work and all that went really well. But they pulled some like fashion marketplace

02:51:32   or whatever. And this one fashion marketplace said that, you know, during and for two hours

02:51:37   after the time she was on stage, users search for and viewed that pale pink Burberry trench

02:51:43   coat that she was wearing, a lace one, every 12 seconds. And like searches on the platform

02:51:51   on this listen platform was for the terms lace,

02:51:55   pink and trench coat grew by 830%.

02:51:58   - That's absolutely amazing.

02:52:00   - It's not that she's just out there

02:52:01   giving this presentation, she's out there like,

02:52:03   I'm a fashionable, trendsetting woman

02:52:08   who is also an executive at this company

02:52:10   and I'm not gonna come out here and try to untuck my shirt

02:52:14   or whatever, I'm gonna dress how I dress.

02:52:16   I'm gonna dress how I feel comfortable.

02:52:19   And I think there was some nice resonance there with people.

02:52:23   - Can I, now's as good a time as ever to bring it up,

02:52:25   but I find it so funny personally because, you know,

02:52:29   those of you who are longtime followers of me on Twitter,

02:52:33   I had a habit for years of when I would go in the keynote

02:52:36   and when speakers would come out,

02:52:38   I would note who had worn their shirts tucked and untucked

02:52:41   and keep a tally for each keynote.

02:52:44   And I gave it up at some point around two years ago

02:52:49   and because I realized it was completely biased towards men

02:52:52   because it doesn't, you know, and I've, you know,

02:52:55   it's just one of the ways that I'm trying to be

02:52:59   more cognizant of that,

02:53:00   and it doesn't seem fair to keep track of it.

02:53:03   I'll only keep track of it for men and not women,

02:53:05   and it's different, so I just don't do it anymore,

02:53:07   but I used to.

02:53:08   Here in Philadelphia, we have a nice Apple store

02:53:12   on Walnut Street, and right next door to it

02:53:14   was an American Apparel.

02:53:15   Well, American Apparel went bankrupt

02:53:17   and closed all their retail stores.

02:53:18   The store that took over that space literally right next to the Apple Store?

02:53:23   Untuck it.

02:53:24   Wait, wait, let me guess.

02:53:25   I was just gonna say it's untuck it, huh?

02:53:27   I'm so sorry I spoiled it for it.

02:53:29   Untuck it.

02:53:30   I will put a photo in the show notes.

02:53:34   I will link to a photo of the untuck it next to the Apple Store, which it amuses me to no end.

02:53:39   So sorry I spoiled that.

02:53:42   That's great.

02:53:43   There's one in Soho very near the Apple Store, too.

02:53:45   Yeah.

02:53:46   And I always see it and laugh when I walk through it.

02:53:48   Those of you who don't know, Untucked is a store that,

02:53:50   the entire point of the store is that they sell shirts

02:53:53   that are meant to be worn untucked, which is what it is.

02:53:58   But anyway, I find it so funny that they open

02:54:01   next to the Apple store.

02:54:02   Yeah, Angela Arnts did great on stage

02:54:05   and I'm sure it won't be the last time that we see her.

02:54:08   And then the opening, last but not least,

02:54:12   going backwards would be the opening Steve Jobs tribute,

02:54:14   which I don't even know what to say about it

02:54:19   other than I thought it was perfect.

02:54:22   I thought that the little passage

02:54:27   that we heard of Steve Jobs himself

02:54:29   was absolutely fantastic.

02:54:31   I've been writing about Apple

02:54:34   ever since I started "Daring Fireball"

02:54:36   and it so summarizes what it is that I,

02:54:42   it puts it, he put his finger on what Apple is

02:54:45   and why they do what they do.

02:54:46   And why do they go to the extraordinary lengths

02:54:48   that they go to and do the unnecessary?

02:54:51   You know, why are the handrails cut out in the theater

02:54:54   that they're gonna use twice a year for keynotes

02:54:57   carved out of stone, you know?

02:54:59   Why do they go to these lengths

02:55:02   to do things that they don't need to do?

02:55:04   And it's, you know, to show their appreciation

02:55:06   for fellow humans who they're never gonna meet,

02:55:09   never gonna shake their, I don't wanna go out,

02:55:11   It's just so perfect to me.

02:55:13   And I never heard it before.

02:55:14   I asked-- - From what I understand,

02:55:17   what I was told was, oh yeah, you asked.

02:55:20   - Well, what did you hear?

02:55:21   You tell me.

02:55:22   - Well, I heard that it was from an internal company meeting

02:55:25   and that it was recorded as the internal company meeting

02:55:28   and it had never been heard outside of the company anywhere.

02:55:30   And I don't even think that it had been replayed maybe

02:55:33   since then or I didn't get that vibe

02:55:35   that it was like, oh, we listen to it all the time.

02:55:37   I think they discovered it, maybe uncovered it

02:55:39   or somebody remembered it,

02:55:41   'cause there are obviously many people

02:55:42   who worked with them for years at Apple

02:55:44   that are still there.

02:55:45   But it was an internal meeting, speaking to employees,

02:55:48   off the cuff, unprepared.

02:55:51   This was not a speech he was giving.

02:55:52   - Right.

02:55:53   - Or something where it was prepared externally

02:55:56   to talk to press or talk to even a graduating class

02:56:00   or any of that jazz.

02:56:01   This was just an internal meeting,

02:56:02   talking to employees about why they did what they did.

02:56:04   - I have it, so that's, I was told the exact same thing.

02:56:07   So as usual, I think Apple actually had a prepared answer

02:56:10   ready for-- - Probably.

02:56:12   - I have a theory.

02:56:13   Now this, I have no little birdie.

02:56:15   I was told only what you were told,

02:56:17   but my theory is maybe that was from one of those

02:56:21   top 100 meetings.

02:56:23   You know, that Steve Jobs started a tradition

02:56:26   where once a year, I think around May,

02:56:28   Apple holds a offsite like over a weekend

02:56:33   for what they call the, it's like the top 100

02:56:36   and it's executives and managers,

02:56:37   and it's 100 people from within the company

02:56:40   who are considered like, here's the best,

02:56:43   here's our top 100 leaders within the company,

02:56:45   and they go and they review product plans for the next year,

02:56:49   and who knows what else,

02:56:50   but it's obviously, shockingly, very secret.

02:56:52   Obviously, politically inside the company,

02:56:57   it's a sign that you are on,

02:56:58   if you get invited for the first time,

02:57:01   it's obviously a sign that you're on the fast track

02:57:03   to management.

02:57:05   I have it, that's my theory.

02:57:06   It's my theory it was from one of those,

02:57:08   perhaps the last one that he attended maybe, I don't know.

02:57:12   - Yeah.

02:57:14   - But it was very, very touching.

02:57:15   - It sounds reasonable as anything.

02:57:16   - Yeah.

02:57:17   'Cause that's the other, the only other thing I was told

02:57:20   was that, yeah, it was internal meeting,

02:57:22   never before public, and I even,

02:57:24   the other thing I was told,

02:57:25   maybe you were told the same thing,

02:57:26   this would prove that they had it prepared,

02:57:27   was that even most Apple employees hadn't heard that before.

02:57:30   And the even most Apple employees hadn't heard it before

02:57:34   It was what made me wonder if maybe it was

02:57:35   that top 100 meeting.

02:57:37   - Right, right.

02:57:38   - But anyway, it was great.

02:57:39   And then I thought Tim Cook's remarks

02:57:42   were incredibly touching.

02:57:44   And I don't know him personally.

02:57:47   I mean, I've spoken to him very briefly a few times.

02:57:49   But I don't think he's hard to read.

02:57:53   I think most people would agree that even just

02:57:57   from his public appearances,

02:57:58   he's not really the sort of guy to tear up easily.

02:58:02   I think he's a pretty hard-baked individual,

02:58:07   at least in public, and I think that the emotion

02:58:09   that he showed while speaking about Steve

02:58:12   was truly profound.

02:58:14   I watered up.

02:58:16   You and I were sitting next to each other.

02:58:17   I don't know, I watered up.

02:58:19   I mean, I didn't have tears running down my face,

02:58:21   but they were there.

02:58:23   They were like, they were at the starting line.

02:58:25   - Yeah.

02:58:30   You gotta say, you gotta think that, you know, sharing something like that with the public

02:58:38   for the first time, you know, there's emotions attached to that, there's emotion attached

02:58:42   to the theater that has his name on it, you know, all of this stuff.

02:58:46   Some of it was mentioned by them, but you just gotta think, like, on a personal level,

02:58:52   these are still people, they still work with one another, they still built relationships

02:58:55   with each other, you know, Steve with his coworkers and his employees, and they had

02:59:01   a life, you know, lifetime shaking relationships with these people.

02:59:07   And I think that a lot of times people get hyper cynical about this because like, ah,

02:59:10   it's a show and it's Pomp and Circumstance and all of this stuff.

02:59:13   And it's like, yeah, I get it.

02:59:15   But it's really only the most hard bitten and cynical of people that can really manipulate

02:59:20   people on that level.

02:59:22   And if you do that, it'll be evident in the other ways that you do business, in the other

02:59:26   ways that you conduct yourself.

02:59:28   And so for me, it felt genuine.

02:59:30   It felt straightforward.

02:59:31   It felt exactly as it was.

02:59:34   People in that auditorium, many of them, especially the senior people, owe their careers and lives

02:59:43   and the ability that they have to impact millions of people to Steve and just to be like, "Hey,

02:59:49   here's a tribute to you."

02:59:50   Hell, if you're going to cry at the end of Fast and the Furious when Diesel drives

02:59:57   on one road and Paul drives down the other, why don't you cry when you've got a person

03:00:09   that you really, really felt love for in that filial employee way or heck, even friendship

03:00:16   way, makes sense to me.

03:00:18   Yeah, I thought it was really nice. You could feel it. Yeah, you could feel it in the in the auditorium

03:00:23   Well, that's it for me. I mean we were three hours into this

03:00:27   for a two hour

03:00:30   Just go ahead and cut down to an hour and a half and we'll be fine

03:00:34   You've got a big week coming up by the time this airs. You will be knee-deep in

03:00:39   TechCrunch disrupt event taking place next week and among your

03:00:44   Featured people on stage is going to be laurine pal jobs

03:00:47   >> Yes, that's correct. She'll be on stage talking about various efforts to do with students and technology, involving students in tech early and making sure that the pipelines are appropriate.

03:01:00   She's been an outspoken advocate of DACA, obviously, of the Dreamers Act, and maintaining that and keeping those opportunities open for immigrants.

03:01:11   And then we also have Lisa Jackson.

03:01:15   I'll be talking with Lisa Jackson,

03:01:17   Apple's head of environment and social issues.

03:01:21   - Former guest on the talk show.

03:01:24   - That's right, that's right.

03:01:24   You've had her before as well.

03:01:26   What should I, how should I prepare?

03:01:27   Is she a hard subject?

03:01:28   - Well, be ready, she's sharp.

03:01:32   (laughing)

03:01:34   - That's my impression so far.

03:01:35   I think I need to be on my toes.

03:01:37   - Do you know what?

03:01:38   - Definitely gonna get one of this week.

03:01:39   - I think that when she was on the talk show,

03:01:41   it was evidence of the same thing I said about Federighi,

03:01:43   which is that she clearly understands everything

03:01:46   in her domain because she can explain it

03:01:48   to someone like me who doesn't know jack squat

03:01:51   about this stuff so thoroughly.

03:01:54   Like, I don't know, her explanation

03:01:55   for the environmental design of the new main building

03:01:58   at the headquarters was just, it was just like, wow.

03:02:01   It's like, I can't believe you're not an architect.

03:02:03   So anyway, that's great.

03:02:04   So I'll bet, and you guys publish videos

03:02:07   of those things, right?

03:02:08   - Yep, yep, it'll be up.

03:02:10   So those will be videos that I'm,

03:02:11   those are two right there that I'm sure listeners

03:02:13   of this show will be interested in.

03:02:14   So break a leg on the show.

03:02:15   Can't wait to see those videos.

03:02:17   - Thanks so much.

03:02:18   Thanks for having me on.

03:02:19   - And everybody can follow you on Twitter

03:02:20   at @panzer, P-A-N-Z-E-R.

03:02:23   - You got it.

03:02:25   - All right, see you soon.