The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► Ladies and gentlemen boys and girls, it's your good friend John Gruber here welcoming you to episode

00:00:05 ◼   ► 200 of the talk show. It's quite a milestone

00:00:09 ◼   ► Now there's going to be a regular episode of the talk show as soon as I can

00:00:14 ◼   ► Where I'll have a special guest on and we will talk about last week's

00:00:19 ◼   ► News the introduction of the iPhone 10 iPhone 8 Apple watch series 3

00:00:24 ◼   ► Apple TV 4k the

00:00:29 ◼   ► public opening of Apple Park, the grand premiere of the Steve Jobs Theater, all that and more,

00:00:36 ◼   ► and digressions and parentheticals and it'll be great. But for this, the 200th episode of the

00:00:44 ◼   ► show, I've got something, I think that's even better. I have a truly very special guest,

00:00:49 ◼   ► Craig Federighi, Apple's Senior Vice President of Software Engineering, is here and I've got

00:00:56 ◼   ► I've got a bunch of questions to ask him about Face ID

00:00:59 ◼   ► and the development of the iPhone 10.

00:01:03 ◼   ► But as you might imagine, Craig Federighi's a busy man

00:01:08 ◼   ► and in a week like this, he's particularly busy.

00:01:11 ◼   ► So this is not a two hour episode of the talk show.

00:01:14 ◼   ► I think I'm only gonna have about 20 or 30 minutes

00:01:17 ◼   ► of his time, but I think that's gonna be great.

00:01:19 ◼   ► I can't think of a better way to mark the 200th episode

00:01:22 ◼   ► of the show than to have a guest like him.

00:01:26 ◼   ► But because this is a special episode,

00:01:28 ◼   ► I've also got a special sponsor.

00:01:30 ◼   ► The show is exclusively brought to you

00:01:32 ◼   ► by the folks at DuckDuckGo.

00:01:36 ◼   ► DuckDuckGo is the search engine that doesn't track you.

00:01:41 ◼   ► Other search engines do track you, as you probably knew.

00:01:46 ◼   ► But they also track you even in private browsing mode,

00:01:49 ◼   ► which is probably something you didn't know.

00:01:51 ◼   ► DuckDuckGo, DuckDuckGo has conducted some studies

00:01:55 ◼   ► And they show that a large percentage of people,

00:02:00 ◼   ► even privacy-minded people,

00:02:02 ◼   ► vastly overestimate just how much private browsing does

00:02:05 ◼   ► to protect your privacy when you're using search.

00:02:09 ◼   ► A lot of people think when you're in private browsing

00:02:11 ◼   ► your search is anonymous.

00:02:13 ◼   ► It is not.

00:02:14 ◼   ► They still track your IP address.

00:02:16 ◼   ► They can still set cookies.

00:02:17 ◼   ► They're just cookies that are per session.

00:02:19 ◼   ► But then they can compare them to the cookies

00:02:21 ◼   ► that they have at the same IP address from other sessions.

00:02:25 ◼   ► It's not anonymous.

00:02:26 ◼   ► Anyway, they have a study with high level findings.

00:02:30 ◼   ► I'll put a link to it in the show notes somewhere.

00:02:33 ◼   ► And I just wanna add one thing.

00:02:38 ◼   ► Yes, DuckDuckGo emphasizes privacy, but guess what?

00:02:41 ◼   ► It's also an excellent search engine.

00:02:44 ◼   ► Apple has it added as one of the very, very few

00:02:50 ◼   ► default search engine options in Safari

00:02:52 ◼   ► on both Mac OS and iOS.

00:02:54 ◼   ► I've been using it as my default search engine in Safari

00:02:58 ◼   ► for years.

00:02:59 ◼   ► And I don't know about a year or so ago,

00:03:01 ◼   ► I switched my iPhone two and I have not looked back.

00:03:04 ◼   ► It's that good.

00:03:05 ◼   ► I wouldn't say that just because they were sponsoring

00:03:07 ◼   ► the show, it's true.

00:03:09 ◼   ► So my thanks to DuckDuckGo.

00:03:10 ◼   ► You can check them out at duckduckgo.com

00:03:13 ◼   ► or just go to your Safari settings

00:03:17 ◼   ► and give them a try as your default search engine.

00:03:21 ◼   ► And now on with the show.

00:03:23 ◼   ► Hey, John.

00:03:25 ◼   ► Another quiet week?

00:03:27 ◼   ► Yeah, it's a good week.

00:03:32 ◼   ► All right, so let's just get it out of the way first.

00:03:35 ◼   ► During the keynote address, when you were demonstrating face ID

00:03:42 ◼   ► in action for the very first time in public--

00:03:45 ◼   ► Yes.

00:03:47 ◼   ► --ho, ho, ho.

00:03:49 ◼   ► Exactly according to plan.

00:03:51 ◼   ► You know, it's tough when you rehearse something like that

00:03:53 ◼   ► to really make it feel authentic in the moment,

00:03:55 ◼   ► but I think I nailed it.

00:03:57 ◼   ► No, I'm kidding.

00:03:58 ◼   ► No, no, that was a thing, wasn't it?

00:04:01 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, so tell me

00:04:02 ◼   ► what happened.

00:04:03 ◼   ► - What happened?

00:04:06 ◼   ► So, you know, we obviously,

00:04:09 ◼   ► I live on a iPhone 10 right now

00:04:12 ◼   ► and it works really reliably for me.

00:04:14 ◼   ► And we had done the stage rehearsal a number of times.

00:04:18 ◼   ► Of course, it works every time.

00:04:20 ◼   ► So in the moment when I went to raise the phone

00:04:23 ◼   ► to do what I'm used to doing and having it unlock,

00:04:25 ◼   ► I was staring at a lock that did not unlock.

00:04:29 ◼   ► And so that was a heart attack moment for me, honestly.

00:04:32 ◼   ► You're just, it did not compute.

00:04:34 ◼   ► We discovered after the fact what had gone on,

00:04:38 ◼   ► but in the moment you're kind of wondering,

00:04:42 ◼   ► wow, this is a surprise.

00:04:44 ◼   ► So what had ended up happening is we had the phone

00:04:49 ◼   ► on the stage, and people are pretty fast

00:04:53 ◼   ► hideous about cleaning up and nudging things and so forth.

00:04:56 ◼   ► And so the normal kind of bio lockout mechanisms

00:05:00 ◼   ► that exist for Touch ID that everyone's used to apply

00:05:04 ◼   ► to Face ID equally.

00:05:06 ◼   ► And so with enough accidental unlock, failed unlock attempts,

00:05:11 ◼   ► the system does its normal give me your passcode kind

00:05:14 ◼   ► of lockout.

00:05:14 ◼   ► And that was the moment I found myself in unexpectedly

00:05:18 ◼   ► on stage.

00:05:19 ◼   ► So fortunately, we have backups.

00:05:21 ◼   ► So just went to that device, and that one apparently hadn't

00:05:24 ◼   ► been nudged and locked out.

00:05:25 ◼   ► So I was able to get on with the demo, which

00:05:28 ◼   ► was fun to do after that.

00:05:31 ◼   ► Right, so in other words, somebody backstage, somebody

00:05:34 ◼   ► whose job is to, let's say, get these demo units exactly

00:05:38 ◼   ► perfectly in the right place, looking perfect for the demo.

00:05:41 ◼   ► They're exquisitely aligned on that table.

00:05:43 ◼   ► You'd be impressed.

00:05:44 ◼   ► That's what I've heard.

00:05:46 ◼   ► - Can you confirm that they wear white gloves?

00:05:48 ◼   ► I've heard that they white gloves them.

00:05:51 ◼   ► - I'm not sure about the gloves,

00:05:52 ◼   ► but I can tell you they polished that phone really well.

00:05:55 ◼   ► Few too many times, I'm afraid.

00:05:59 ◼   ► - Right, it's the perfectionism in Apple.

00:06:02 ◼   ► Even on stage, if this is the first time

00:06:05 ◼   ► we're gonna see Face ID, that phone is gonna be pristine.

00:06:08 ◼   ► - Looking good, yeah.

00:06:10 ◼   ► - Somebody picked it up to polish it,

00:06:12 ◼   ► inadvertently without thinking,

00:06:16 ◼   ► triggered the, hey, is this Craig?

00:06:19 ◼   ► Nope.

00:06:19 ◼   ► And it was not.

00:06:20 ◼   ► Too many times.

00:06:21 ◼   ► And all you would have had to do is put the passcode in.

00:06:24 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:06:24 ◼   ► Just like if somebody--

00:06:26 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:06:26 ◼   ► And I thought of that, but I thought

00:06:27 ◼   ► that would be a pretty weird demo of face ID

00:06:29 ◼   ► where I had to have typed in the passcode.

00:06:31 ◼   ► Right.

00:06:32 ◼   ► Right.

00:06:32 ◼   ► So I decided to go to backup instead

00:06:34 ◼   ► of typing in the passcode.

00:06:35 ◼   ► But yeah, that would have worked too.

00:06:37 ◼   ► Now I will say to your credit, and I've heard this many times,

00:06:41 ◼   ► and I think it's true, is that the true test of a presenter--

00:06:44 ◼   ► Demos are hard, and Murphy's Law tends to kick in.

00:06:48 ◼   ► And the true test of a presenter isn't

00:06:51 ◼   ► having a streak of never having a demo fail.

00:06:54 ◼   ► It's how do you recover from a demo fail?

00:06:57 ◼   ► And I think you handled it perfectly.

00:06:59 ◼   ► I don't see how it could have gone any better, given--

00:07:01 ◼   ► Oh, thank you.

00:07:02 ◼   ► --the fact that the thing was already there.

00:07:04 ◼   ► But the problem is-- the reason this is a particularly bad demo

00:07:07 ◼   ► fail is that Face ID is new.

00:07:11 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:07:12 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:07:13 ◼   ► - And people, and to be honest,

00:07:16 ◼   ► there are, there have been other attempts

00:07:19 ◼   ► by other phone makers or gadget makers

00:07:23 ◼   ► to do some kind of facial recognition thing,

00:07:25 ◼   ► and it doesn't work that great.

00:07:28 ◼   ► And so there's a perception, in the same way

00:07:30 ◼   ► that there were fingerprint scanners before Touch ID

00:07:34 ◼   ► that didn't work so great.

00:07:35 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, exactly.

00:07:36 ◼   ► - And the perception among people who don't try it is,

00:07:38 ◼   ► I don't buy it.

00:07:39 ◼   ► I'm skeptical about Face ID.

00:07:42 ◼   ► And then lo and behold, there, at a glance,

00:07:45 ◼   ► it looks like it didn't work for you.

00:07:47 ◼   ► - Right, yeah, no, no, I mean,

00:07:50 ◼   ► that element of this is not lost on me, for sure.

00:07:52 ◼   ► That was unfortunate because it does work so well.

00:07:56 ◼   ► And it is, I mean, it's obviously

00:07:58 ◼   ► in a totally different league than what else

00:08:00 ◼   ► is out there today.

00:08:02 ◼   ► And we all, a bunch of us have been living on them

00:08:05 ◼   ► for quite a while now, and it just works.

00:08:08 ◼   ► It's really automatic.

00:08:09 ◼   ► So that was part of the shock, I think, for me on stage,

00:08:13 ◼   ► the moment it happened was, hold on, this just always works.

00:08:15 ◼   ► So what's going on?

00:08:17 ◼   ► But no, I get why there's a problem.

00:08:19 ◼   ► And honestly, we're just all counting the days

00:08:23 ◼   ► that customers can finally get their hands on these.

00:08:25 ◼   ► Because I think just like with Touch ID,

00:08:28 ◼   ► initially people thought, oh, Apple

00:08:30 ◼   ► done something that's totally not going to work.

00:08:32 ◼   ► And I'm not a believer.

00:08:33 ◼   ► And I'm not going to use this feature.

00:08:35 ◼   ► And now everyone's worried because they can't imagine life

00:08:39 ◼   ► without Touch ID.

00:08:40 ◼   ► And we're going to see exactly the same thing with Face ID.

00:08:44 ◼   ► I mean, those of us that are using it,

00:08:46 ◼   ► it's one thing when you have an idea

00:08:49 ◼   ► and you're working toward it and you

00:08:51 ◼   ► think it's going to be great.

00:08:53 ◼   ► And then there's the moment when you actually create it

00:08:55 ◼   ► and you get to live on it.

00:08:57 ◼   ► And it's even better.

00:08:58 ◼   ► And that's how all of us were virtually

00:09:01 ◼   ► high-fiving in the halls once we got it all dialed in

00:09:04 ◼   ► and we were living on them, we're like,

00:09:06 ◼   ► it is what we thought it would be.

00:09:08 ◼   ► You don't even think about it.

00:09:09 ◼   ► It just works.

00:09:10 ◼   ► And so in a way, all of this uncertainty

00:09:15 ◼   ► out there amongst people who haven't had the opportunity

00:09:17 ◼   ► to live on it, I totally get it.

00:09:18 ◼   ► And it's going to melt away once people

00:09:21 ◼   ► get to experience this product in their hands.

00:09:25 ◼   ► And a skeptic listening to this could say, well, of course,

00:09:28 ◼   ► Apple's senior vice president of software engineering

00:09:31 ◼   ► is going to say that.

00:09:32 ◼   ► I can say that I have various friends and acquaintances

00:09:36 ◼   ► who work in your division.

00:09:38 ◼   ► I happened to run into a few of them

00:09:42 ◼   ► while I was out there this week,

00:09:44 ◼   ► including somebody else who was disclosed,

00:09:47 ◼   ► this is on iPhone 10,

00:09:49 ◼   ► and had therefore been carrying two phones around

00:09:52 ◼   ► for a while because it's, you know,

00:09:56 ◼   ► if you're disclosed on it, you can't take it out

00:09:58 ◼   ► when you're around people who aren't disclosed.

00:10:00 ◼   ► So you have to have another phone in your pocket

00:10:02 ◼   ► which is the one you can take out when you're in an area

00:10:05 ◼   ► that's not secure.

00:10:06 ◼   ► And what he told me, and he's the sort of person

00:10:09 ◼   ► who would never lie to me.

00:10:12 ◼   ► He may give me a non-answer, but he said,

00:10:14 ◼   ► as soon as he got used to Face ID,

00:10:16 ◼   ► it wasn't like he'd get mixed up going back and forth,

00:10:19 ◼   ► which one do I need to put my thumb on,

00:10:20 ◼   ► which one do I do it?

00:10:21 ◼   ► He just instantly assumed Face ID would work on both phones.

00:10:25 ◼   ► And instantly, never miss Touch ID.

00:10:31 ◼   ► it was like, what's wrong with this phone?

00:10:32 ◼   ► Why isn't it unlocking?

00:10:34 ◼   ► And he's swiping up from the bottom

00:10:35 ◼   ► and it's not doing anything.

00:10:37 ◼   ► And that was the experience I had personally with touch ID

00:10:40 ◼   ► is when I first got a iPhone 5S and I got used to touch ID

00:10:44 ◼   ► and then I'd go over to my iPad

00:10:46 ◼   ► and I'd put my thumb on the button and I'd be like,

00:10:47 ◼   ► why is my iPad broken?

00:10:50 ◼   ► - Yeah, no, I'm totally with you.

00:10:53 ◼   ► - So it sounds like for those of you

00:10:54 ◼   ► who've been living with iPhone 10

00:10:55 ◼   ► that face ID has the same effect.

00:10:58 ◼   ► - Yeah, it absolutely does.

00:11:00 ◼   ► It absolutely does.

00:11:01 ◼   ► It's pretty miraculous.

00:11:04 ◼   ► It just works.

00:11:06 ◼   ► And so, yeah, I can't wait till people actually get to try it.

00:11:10 ◼   ► And you don't have to--

00:11:11 ◼   ► even Touch ID, as much as we love it,

00:11:14 ◼   ► I think this is that much better.

00:11:16 ◼   ► If my hands are wet, it doesn't matter.

00:11:18 ◼   ► It just works.

00:11:19 ◼   ► So I think it's pretty great.

00:11:22 ◼   ► So I know people have so many questions.

00:11:24 ◼   ► I could just run through a bunch of them.

00:11:27 ◼   ► I've gotten a slew of emails and tweets asking specifically

00:11:30 ◼   ► about sunglasses because part of it is,

00:11:34 ◼   ► it's not just your face, it requires eye contact.

00:11:38 ◼   ► So for example, your kids can't sneak up on you

00:11:42 ◼   ► when you're sleeping and unlock your phone

00:11:44 ◼   ► by pointing it at your face.

00:11:45 ◼   ► - That's exactly right, yeah, we call it attention detection

00:11:48 ◼   ► and so we make sure not only that it's you

00:11:50 ◼   ► but that you are looking at the phone.

00:11:53 ◼   ► - All right, so what happens if you're wearing sunglasses?

00:11:55 ◼   ► - Yeah, so it kinda depends.

00:11:56 ◼   ► So for most sunglasses, actually,

00:11:59 ◼   ► even if they're opaque to, they look opaque to you or me

00:12:02 ◼   ► looking at the person wearing them,

00:12:04 ◼   ► they actually transmit IR.

00:12:06 ◼   ► And for those glasses, Touch ID, or Face ID rather,

00:12:10 ◼   ► sees through them in the same way it would

00:12:13 ◼   ► if you were wearing your normal prescription eyeglasses,

00:12:15 ◼   ► and it just works.

00:12:16 ◼   ► And there are some glasses that they're coating,

00:12:20 ◼   ► and it's not polarization in particular,

00:12:22 ◼   ► it's just how they transmit IR.

00:12:24 ◼   ► There are some sunglasses that block it.

00:12:26 ◼   ► And so in that case, attention detection would fail.

00:12:31 ◼   ► So it really depends on the pair of glasses you have.

00:12:33 ◼   ► So you have a choice.

00:12:34 ◼   ► You can get a different pair of glasses

00:12:35 ◼   ► if you have this problem.

00:12:37 ◼   ► There's also the option that we have in there

00:12:40 ◼   ► for a number of reasons that you can choose to temporarily

00:12:43 ◼   ► or permanently disable attention detection.

00:12:45 ◼   ► And so for instance, I've actually

00:12:47 ◼   ► been getting some letters, emails,

00:12:49 ◼   ► over the last few days with people saying, I'm blind.

00:12:53 ◼   ► Can I use this feature?

00:12:55 ◼   ► And in fact, you can.

00:12:57 ◼   ► You turn off attention detection,

00:12:59 ◼   ► in which case it makes sure it's you,

00:13:01 ◼   ► but it isn't looking for the glance.

00:13:03 ◼   ► And so we've sort of thought through

00:13:05 ◼   ► a lot of those kinds of cases.

00:13:06 ◼   ► And so you do have that option

00:13:08 ◼   ► if there's something around your face wear

00:13:10 ◼   ► that would block attention detection,

00:13:12 ◼   ► but it does mean, in that case,

00:13:14 ◼   ► that that other element of protection

00:13:15 ◼   ► would be temporarily disabled.

00:13:18 ◼   ► - Right, and it would be similar to,

00:13:21 ◼   ► my hands are always wet.

00:13:22 ◼   ► I have a job where I'm preparing stuff

00:13:24 ◼   ► and my hands are wet, will Touch ID always work for me?

00:13:27 ◼   ► And so there's always gonna be exceptions.

00:13:29 ◼   ► I'm not making excuses for you, but it can't be perfect.

00:13:32 ◼   ► - No, it's true, and we've always had the fallback

00:13:35 ◼   ► with Touch ID and we do with Face ID as well,

00:13:37 ◼   ► is you can use your passcode.

00:13:39 ◼   ► So if you find yourself in some circumstance

00:13:41 ◼   ► where you can't use it, it's exactly the same

00:13:44 ◼   ► as all of us are used to with Touch ID,

00:13:46 ◼   ► just use your passcode.

00:13:48 ◼   ► But I'm certainly finding the vast majority

00:13:51 ◼   ► of the cases I'm using, it's always working for me.

00:13:53 ◼   ► I don't even have to think about it.

00:13:54 ◼   ► - Right.

00:13:55 ◼   ► And so bottom line, this really is what you guys think

00:14:01 ◼   ► is the next generation of biometric authentication.

00:14:07 ◼   ► It's not just, hey, we went edge to edge

00:14:10 ◼   ► so there wasn't room for touch ID.

00:14:12 ◼   ► It's no, this is along the lines of this,

00:14:16 ◼   ► we think this is the future of the iPhone.

00:14:18 ◼   ► Face ID is the future, the next step

00:14:21 ◼   ► in biometric authentication?

00:14:25 ◼   ► Yeah, we do.

00:14:26 ◼   ► We do.

00:14:26 ◼   ► I mean, I think there are potentially

00:14:28 ◼   ► settings where different biometric techniques

00:14:32 ◼   ► or combinations thereof even could make sense.

00:14:34 ◼   ► But I think there's something about you're using--

00:14:38 ◼   ► certainly in cases you're using a product that

00:14:41 ◼   ► demands your attention and it recognizes you.

00:14:44 ◼   ► And I mean, this is how we as people

00:14:46 ◼   ► work in authenticating each other, right?

00:14:48 ◼   ► We identify each other.

00:14:49 ◼   ► It's the most natural thing in the world.

00:14:51 ◼   ► And now you interact.

00:14:52 ◼   ► And so we find--

00:14:53 ◼   ► I think we're all wired for that interaction to work really well.

00:14:56 ◼   ► And it's extremely natural with our devices.

00:15:00 ◼   ► And the levels of accuracy, the level of security

00:15:05 ◼   ► we're able to achieve with it are pretty extraordinary.

00:15:07 ◼   ► So we are really excited about this as the path forward.

00:15:13 ◼   ► And so for example, your iPhone, just based on, let's say,

00:15:17 ◼   ► your email and your iMessages alone,

00:15:20 ◼   ► probably contains some sensitive information.

00:15:23 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:15:24 ◼   ► - And you yourself have, the phone in your pocket

00:15:26 ◼   ► is guarded by Face ID.

00:15:29 ◼   ► - That is absolutely correct, yes.

00:15:31 ◼   ► At this very moment.

00:15:32 ◼   ► - So there you have it.

00:15:34 ◼   ► If that's not trust in a system, I don't know what is.

00:15:37 ◼   ► - That's right, and same is true for Tim Cook, right?

00:15:40 ◼   ► Everyone at Apple is trusting Face ID.

00:15:45 ◼   ► Everyone who has access to an iPhone X right now.

00:15:48 ◼   ► All right, so another thing that people--

00:15:50 ◼   ► I've heard from during Fireball readers

00:15:53 ◼   ► is, well, why can't I just look at it to unlock it?

00:15:55 ◼   ► Why do I have to swipe?

00:15:58 ◼   ► Yeah, I've gotten that one too.

00:16:01 ◼   ► I think if you think about--

00:16:03 ◼   ► a lot of us like functionality on the lock screen, right?

00:16:06 ◼   ► We want to look at our notifications.

00:16:07 ◼   ► Maybe we're just looking at the time.

00:16:10 ◼   ► Maybe we wanted to get to the lock screen camera.

00:16:13 ◼   ► And we now have a quick shortcut, actually,

00:16:15 ◼   ► to get at the flashlight.

00:16:17 ◼   ► So the idea that every time you did one of those things,

00:16:19 ◼   ► you're suddenly tossed into mail or Twitter

00:16:23 ◼   ► or whatever you were last doing, I don't think

00:16:26 ◼   ► is a very predictable experience.

00:16:28 ◼   ► And I think those people are fearful of--

00:16:31 ◼   ► they haven't had the opportunity to really live on the device

00:16:33 ◼   ► and use it.

00:16:34 ◼   ► And so they have a sense that this doing the swipe

00:16:38 ◼   ► is going to somehow be a barrier.

00:16:41 ◼   ► So they're trying to solve a problem that, in fact, when you

00:16:43 ◼   ► use the device doesn't exist.

00:16:46 ◼   ► They think you have to wait for it to unlock,

00:16:48 ◼   ► and then you swipe, and so it's going to feel unresponsive.

00:16:50 ◼   ► The fact is that the moment you raise the phone,

00:16:54 ◼   ► you can start swiping whether it's

00:16:55 ◼   ► finished recognizing you or not.

00:16:57 ◼   ► And if that's what you wanted to do,

00:16:59 ◼   ► it's going to automatically take you--

00:17:01 ◼   ► it's going to automatically unlock

00:17:02 ◼   ► once it finishes, recognizes you, which feels

00:17:04 ◼   ► pretty much instantaneous.

00:17:06 ◼   ► And so I think preserving the access to the lock screen

00:17:10 ◼   ► is more important than avoiding this swipe

00:17:15 ◼   ► that I think to all of us who live on it,

00:17:17 ◼   ► it just feels completely automatic and intentional

00:17:20 ◼   ► in the use of the phone.

00:17:21 ◼   ► - With all the nostalgia over this being

00:17:25 ◼   ► the 10th anniversary of the original iPhone,

00:17:27 ◼   ► somebody just on Twitter today,

00:17:29 ◼   ► or no, I don't know, somewhere,

00:17:31 ◼   ► somebody threw up a link to a YouTube clip

00:17:34 ◼   ► of the original iPhone commercials from 2007.

00:17:39 ◼   ► And it starts with this is how you unlock it

00:17:43 ◼   ► and you swipe to unlock.

00:17:45 ◼   ► And it was sort of a, I mean it was only 10 years ago

00:17:48 ◼   ► but it's sort of like we were naive about security

00:17:51 ◼   ► at the time where it was sort of,

00:17:52 ◼   ► it was encouraged to just wake the phone

00:17:57 ◼   ► and swipe to unlock and you're in there

00:17:59 ◼   ► and the last 10 years we've,

00:18:01 ◼   ► we as a culture have really sharpened our minds

00:18:05 ◼   ► on privacy and security.

00:18:08 ◼   ► But this sort of goes back to that

00:18:10 ◼   ► where you just pick it up even better than before

00:18:13 ◼   ► 'cause there's the detection of the,

00:18:16 ◼   ► the screen turns on just by picking it up.

00:18:18 ◼   ► And you just make one little swipe gesture and you're in.

00:18:22 ◼   ► It really hearkens back to the original.

00:18:24 ◼   ► It's up instead of to the side,

00:18:26 ◼   ► but it's very similar to me.

00:18:28 ◼   ► - Exactly, yeah, no, it does.

00:18:31 ◼   ► And it's, as you say, it's even easier to do,

00:18:34 ◼   ► it's even more automatic.

00:18:35 ◼   ► But it's the same sense of when you think about that,

00:18:38 ◼   ► the original device where security wasn't a consideration,

00:18:43 ◼   ► that was the best way to use the phone.

00:18:47 ◼   ► And now with Face ID, it's as if you can just use it

00:18:51 ◼   ► in the most natural way where security

00:18:53 ◼   ► isn't this overt part of the process.

00:18:55 ◼   ► It's automatic, so the experience is back

00:18:58 ◼   ► to exactly as we wanted it to be.

00:19:00 ◼   ► - While I have you, Apple famously,

00:19:07 ◼   ► I mean, this is right back from the founding of the company.

00:19:12 ◼   ► Famously, the key to the company's product success

00:19:16 ◼   ► has been the integration between software and hardware,

00:19:19 ◼   ► doing both of them.

00:19:22 ◼   ► But at this point, and I think with the hardware

00:19:29 ◼   ► for the Face ID that's in the phone,

00:19:32 ◼   ► It's not like you guys went out and got an off-the-shelf face scanner component.

00:19:40 ◼   ► Put it at the top of the phone, and then your team--

00:19:44 ◼   ► all right, now your job is to write drivers for this thing

00:19:47 ◼   ► and then create APIs for our developers to connect to it.

00:19:51 ◼   ► Right.

00:19:53 ◼   ► The entire-- from the silicon up is custom Apple-designed.

00:19:59 ◼   ► How different is that for your team working

00:20:02 ◼   ► at that silicon level as opposed to off-the-shelf component

00:20:05 ◼   ► level with the hardware?

00:20:07 ◼   ► I mean, this is--

00:20:08 ◼   ► I mean, you're right.

00:20:10 ◼   ► This is what makes Apple, Apple.

00:20:11 ◼   ► I mean, this is the most special and the biggest treat

00:20:14 ◼   ► as a creator of products for all of us

00:20:17 ◼   ► to be able to look at a problem like this

00:20:20 ◼   ► and know that we can put the right support that we want

00:20:24 ◼   ► onto the core silicon of the system.

00:20:28 ◼   ► We-- Phil talked about the neural engine that's

00:20:32 ◼   ► on the chip that we could wire in for doing

00:20:35 ◼   ► this high-performance recognition,

00:20:37 ◼   ► this challenging recognition task,

00:20:39 ◼   ► and that we can even make sure that the silicon that we've

00:20:42 ◼   ► built to do it is tied in behind the secure enclave

00:20:45 ◼   ► so that we have all the security properties we

00:20:48 ◼   ► want in that architecture.

00:20:49 ◼   ► I mean, I can't imagine where you

00:20:50 ◼   ► would buy that off the shelf.

00:20:53 ◼   ► And then the way it is connected to this just absolutely

00:20:56 ◼   ► amazing set of sensors at the top of the phone,

00:21:02 ◼   ► and the design of that, and the design of how the flood

00:21:06 ◼   ► illuminator and the dot pattern and all the mechanisms

00:21:09 ◼   ► for recognition, that was co-designed

00:21:11 ◼   ► between the hardware and sensors team and our security team

00:21:15 ◼   ► to figure out all of the different ways we wanted that

00:21:18 ◼   ► to work securely to make sure that the device could store

00:21:22 ◼   ► what it needed to match your face without making sure

00:21:25 ◼   ► that that information was completely

00:21:27 ◼   ► under your control, locked up behind the secure enclave

00:21:31 ◼   ► and never left your phone.

00:21:34 ◼   ► All of this is the ability to think about a really hard

00:21:38 ◼   ► problem end to end and then bring

00:21:40 ◼   ► to bear the best minds and the best technologies

00:21:44 ◼   ► at every level along that stack to deliver it

00:21:47 ◼   ► is the most special experience in creating a product.

00:21:52 ◼   ► And that's why it is kind of magic when it finally

00:21:54 ◼   ► all comes together.

00:21:55 ◼   ► It wasn't just a bunch of pieces that you bolted together.

00:21:58 ◼   ► You had an idea, you had a vision,

00:22:00 ◼   ► and here you can make it real.

00:22:03 ◼   ► Yeah, I was thinking software and hardware.

00:22:05 ◼   ► I wasn't even thinking about security

00:22:07 ◼   ► being a fundamental part of the collaboration

00:22:11 ◼   ► from the white sheet of paper at the beginning

00:22:14 ◼   ► of the whole process to the end.

00:22:16 ◼   ► But that makes a lot of sense, too.

00:22:18 ◼   ► It really has become--

00:22:20 ◼   ► I mean, security and privacy have

00:22:22 ◼   ► become a consideration in the design of so many

00:22:25 ◼   ► of the things we do, many, many of the things we do.

00:22:28 ◼   ► And to do them right, you have to think about them

00:22:31 ◼   ► at a fundamental level.

00:22:32 ◼   ► You have to design them in, often to the silicon,

00:22:35 ◼   ► often to the hardware, to really make a truly secure product.

00:22:40 ◼   ► And we have the opportunity to do that.

00:22:42 ◼   ► And it's a rare opportunity, I think.

00:22:44 ◼   ► Right, I'm imagining if it was just hardware and software,

00:22:47 ◼   ► and you made a facial ID scanner,

00:22:49 ◼   ► and then a couple of months ago went to the security guys

00:22:52 ◼   ► And I'm like, here, make sure this is secure.

00:22:54 ◼   ► Yeah, right.

00:22:55 ◼   ► It's got a little USB line between the camera and the chip

00:22:59 ◼   ► and no problem.

00:23:00 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:23:02 ◼   ► No, and it's true.

00:23:03 ◼   ► I should say one more thing, which

00:23:05 ◼   ► is this even ops, our operations and manufacturing team,

00:23:09 ◼   ► ends up being involved here.

00:23:10 ◼   ► Because when you think about how you secure this thing,

00:23:13 ◼   ► you now have all these components

00:23:15 ◼   ► that need to trust each other and need

00:23:17 ◼   ► to have secure connections to one another.

00:23:19 ◼   ► And so even the whole process by which we manufacture and then

00:23:24 ◼   ► pair all of the components on the system

00:23:28 ◼   ► has to be considered as part of the manufacturing process.

00:23:32 ◼   ► And this is something that we think about end to end

00:23:34 ◼   ► when we build a product.

00:23:36 ◼   ► And I do think it's pretty special.

00:23:40 ◼   ► Let's say I'm an app developer, and I

00:23:42 ◼   ► have an app that already works with Touch ID, like my credit

00:23:47 ◼   ► card app.

00:23:48 ◼   ► When I launch that app, I have to authenticate with Touch ID

00:23:51 ◼   ► before I'm in.

00:23:54 ◼   ► Would an app like that-- does an app like that need to be updated

00:23:57 ◼   ► to support Face ID, too?

00:23:59 ◼   ► No, actually, we were able to support exactly the same API.

00:24:03 ◼   ► So if you think about how it works right now,

00:24:05 ◼   ► that app would essentially-- it asks the system to request

00:24:11 ◼   ► a Touch ID authentication.

00:24:14 ◼   ► Now, instead of waiting for the user

00:24:17 ◼   ► to put their finger on the sensor

00:24:20 ◼   ► and complete a Touch ID authentication,

00:24:22 ◼   ► we automatically, at the system level,

00:24:25 ◼   ► will surface our face ID UI showing

00:24:29 ◼   ► that we're doing a match.

00:24:31 ◼   ► And we can return the same success code

00:24:33 ◼   ► to the application saying, great, thumbs up or thumbs down,

00:24:37 ◼   ► as if the system had presented the previous generation Touch

00:24:41 ◼   ► ID screen and the user had failed to match or canceled out

00:24:44 ◼   ► of the Touch ID operation.

00:24:46 ◼   ► So it's extraordinary that right now we're all running on apps

00:24:50 ◼   ► that were designed for Touch ID.

00:24:51 ◼   ► And they work just perfectly out of the box with Face ID.

00:24:55 ◼   ► It's almost like you guys might have had an idea of what

00:24:58 ◼   ► might be coming down the line.

00:25:00 ◼   ► We like to think we think ahead sometimes.

00:25:04 ◼   ► All right, here's a scenario that, for obvious reasons,

00:25:09 ◼   ► is on a lot of people's minds is what happens if you are, say, involved in a situation with

00:25:20 ◼   ► law enforcement or perhaps going through customs and there, you know, I don't know what the

00:25:28 ◼   ► laws are around the world, but I know that there's this, to me, very strange, there's

00:25:34 ◼   ► been a ruling in the United States that law enforcement can compel somebody to supply

00:25:39 ◼   ► their fingerprint to a phone, but can't compel somebody to supply their passcode. So we're

00:25:46 ◼   ► not lawyers, let's forget about the legal distinction. iOS 11 adds a feature where you

00:25:53 ◼   ► can press the side button on an iPhone, existing iPhones at least, five times. And then all

00:26:02 ◼   ► it does is just put you in a situation like you are after a power down power up where

00:26:06 ◼   ► where you have to supply your passcode

00:26:08 ◼   ► before the biometrics can unlock the phone.

00:26:12 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

00:26:13 ◼   ► - I think people are,

00:26:15 ◼   ► I know, in fact, I know people are more worried about this

00:26:18 ◼   ► with Face ID than Touch ID

00:26:19 ◼   ► because compelling someone to supply their fingerprint

00:26:22 ◼   ► involves more than just if somebody is in possession

00:26:27 ◼   ► of your phone, pointing it at your face

00:26:30 ◼   ► and making you look at it.

00:26:31 ◼   ► So is there anything like that, some kind of way to--

00:26:36 ◼   ► I mean, first I'd say we aren't designing products with an aim

00:26:40 ◼   ► to avoid law enforcement doing their job.

00:26:44 ◼   ► We appreciate law enforcement.

00:26:48 ◼   ► But there are lots of scenarios where someone who you don't

00:26:51 ◼   ► trust might be trying to get your phone.

00:26:55 ◼   ► That could be a thief coming for you.

00:26:57 ◼   ► That could be a border crossing into a country

00:26:59 ◼   ► where you think the people who are trying to inspect

00:27:01 ◼   ► your phone may not be someone you trust.

00:27:04 ◼   ► And in those situations, as you mentioned,

00:27:07 ◼   ► we introduced this new capability with iOS 11,

00:27:13 ◼   ► where you can basically force the device into biolock.

00:27:16 ◼   ► We made it even easier to get to on iPhone 8 and iPhone 10,

00:27:21 ◼   ► where on iPhone 8 and 10, you can just grip the side button.

00:27:25 ◼   ► So both the screen lock button on the right hand

00:27:28 ◼   ► side of the phone and either of the volume buttons

00:27:30 ◼   ► on the left, and just grip those two together for a few seconds

00:27:34 ◼   ► and we will put the phone in biolock.

00:27:36 ◼   ► So it's the kind of thing that you could do in your pocket

00:27:41 ◼   ► as you were being compelled to hand your phone to someone

00:27:45 ◼   ► you didn't trust.

00:27:46 ◼   ► And then they can't use either touch ID or, in the case

00:27:51 ◼   ► of iPhone 10, face ID to try to get access to your phone.

00:27:55 ◼   ► And we think that's an important improvement across the board.

00:27:59 ◼   ► On iPhone 10, does that not conflict

00:28:02 ◼   ► with taking a screenshot?

00:28:03 ◼   ► I thought I read somewhere that to take a screenshot,

00:28:05 ◼   ► you do the side button and volume down.

00:28:07 ◼   ► Yeah, it does turn out you get a bonus screenshot out

00:28:09 ◼   ► of the experience in the current build.

00:28:11 ◼   ► But we are looking at saying, if you hold the buttons down,

00:28:13 ◼   ► maybe we'll throw the screenshot away for you automatically.

00:28:16 ◼   ► You could consider it a sort of a commemorative screenshot

00:28:19 ◼   ► for that particular moment.

00:28:21 ◼   ► I got you.

00:28:22 ◼   ► I got you, though.

00:28:23 ◼   ► You side button and just tap and release on volume down.

00:28:25 ◼   ► Yeah, just claw your phone, basically.

00:28:26 ◼   ► Yeah, just grip it.

00:28:27 ◼   ► No, but if you just want to take a screenshot,

00:28:29 ◼   ► it's just two buttons.

00:28:31 ◼   ► You press them to invoke this.

00:28:32 ◼   ► - When they let go.

00:28:34 ◼   ► - To invoke this, turn off face ID temporarily,

00:28:37 ◼   ► you press and hold them.

00:28:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, exactly.

00:28:40 ◼   ► It's the difference between sort of click

00:28:41 ◼   ► and click and hold.

00:28:42 ◼   ► Right now we're firing the click on the click and hold

00:28:46 ◼   ► and that need not be a conflict.

00:28:48 ◼   ► - Right, and with the five button press

00:28:51 ◼   ► on the iPhone 7 and earlier,

00:28:53 ◼   ► you even get a nice bit of haptic feedback now

00:28:56 ◼   ► to know that it triggered.

00:28:57 ◼   ► Is there something like that with the press both buttons?

00:29:00 ◼   ► - Same thing.

00:29:01 ◼   ► - You get a haptic so you know you've done it, exactly.

00:29:04 ◼   ► - Right, so that's brilliant.

00:29:05 ◼   ► So let's just say, and thieves are a perfect example.

00:29:08 ◼   ► I know that that's something that people are worried about,

00:29:10 ◼   ► is hey, what if somebody steals my phone

00:29:13 ◼   ► and they quick turn it around and I look at it

00:29:15 ◼   ► and it's unlocked.

00:29:17 ◼   ► So if somebody, like if you're getting mugged,

00:29:19 ◼   ► I hope nobody does, but if somebody is getting mugged

00:29:22 ◼   ► and they say, "Give me your phone,"

00:29:23 ◼   ► as you're handing it to them, if you squeeze those buttons,

00:29:26 ◼   ► it will disable Face ID.

00:29:29 ◼   ► - Exactly.

00:29:31 ◼   ► So they've got your phone, but they won't have your,

00:29:33 ◼   ► they won't have an unlocked phone.

00:29:34 ◼   ► - That is right, yep.

00:29:36 ◼   ► - Seems like you guys thought of a lot of this stuff.

00:29:40 ◼   ► - We try, we try, but the folks on the internet

00:29:43 ◼   ► are constantly coming up with new questions,

00:29:45 ◼   ► so I'm sure we'll learn something.

00:29:46 ◼   ► - Well, Craig, it's always a pleasure

00:29:50 ◼   ► to have you on the show.

00:29:52 ◼   ► You're welcome back anytime you want.

00:29:54 ◼   ► - Oh, thank you, John.

00:29:55 ◼   ► - But like I said, you're probably pretty busy this week, so.

00:30:00 ◼   ► Exciting week.

00:30:00 ◼   ► That's about it for me.

00:30:01 ◼   ► Good week.

00:30:01 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:30:02 ◼   ► All right, awesome.

00:30:03 ◼   ► I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you.

00:30:06 ◼   ► All right.

00:30:06 ◼   ► Till next time, Craig.

00:30:07 ◼   ► Thank you.

00:30:08 ◼   ► All right.

00:30:08 ◼   ► Thanks, John.