The Talk Show

200: ‘Episode CC’ With Craig Federighi


00:00:00   Ladies and gentlemen boys and girls, it's your good friend John Gruber here welcoming you to episode

00:00:05   200 of the talk show. It's quite a milestone

00:00:09   Now there's going to be a regular episode of the talk show as soon as I can

00:00:14   Where I'll have a special guest on and we will talk about last week's

00:00:19   News the introduction of the iPhone 10 iPhone 8 Apple watch series 3

00:00:24   Apple TV 4k the

00:00:29   public opening of Apple Park, the grand premiere of the Steve Jobs Theater, all that and more,

00:00:36   and digressions and parentheticals and it'll be great. But for this, the 200th episode of the

00:00:44   show, I've got something, I think that's even better. I have a truly very special guest,

00:00:49   Craig Federighi, Apple's Senior Vice President of Software Engineering, is here and I've got

00:00:56   I've got a bunch of questions to ask him about Face ID

00:00:59   and the development of the iPhone 10.

00:01:03   But as you might imagine, Craig Federighi's a busy man

00:01:08   and in a week like this, he's particularly busy.

00:01:11   So this is not a two hour episode of the talk show.

00:01:14   I think I'm only gonna have about 20 or 30 minutes

00:01:17   of his time, but I think that's gonna be great.

00:01:19   I can't think of a better way to mark the 200th episode

00:01:22   of the show than to have a guest like him.

00:01:26   But because this is a special episode,

00:01:28   I've also got a special sponsor.

00:01:30   The show is exclusively brought to you

00:01:32   by the folks at DuckDuckGo.

00:01:36   DuckDuckGo is the search engine that doesn't track you.

00:01:41   Other search engines do track you, as you probably knew.

00:01:46   But they also track you even in private browsing mode,

00:01:49   which is probably something you didn't know.

00:01:51   DuckDuckGo, DuckDuckGo has conducted some studies

00:01:55   And they show that a large percentage of people,

00:02:00   even privacy-minded people,

00:02:02   vastly overestimate just how much private browsing does

00:02:05   to protect your privacy when you're using search.

00:02:09   A lot of people think when you're in private browsing

00:02:11   your search is anonymous.

00:02:13   It is not.

00:02:14   They still track your IP address.

00:02:16   They can still set cookies.

00:02:17   They're just cookies that are per session.

00:02:19   But then they can compare them to the cookies

00:02:21   that they have at the same IP address from other sessions.

00:02:25   It's not anonymous.

00:02:26   Anyway, they have a study with high level findings.

00:02:30   I'll put a link to it in the show notes somewhere.

00:02:33   And I just wanna add one thing.

00:02:38   Yes, DuckDuckGo emphasizes privacy, but guess what?

00:02:41   It's also an excellent search engine.

00:02:44   Apple has it added as one of the very, very few

00:02:50   default search engine options in Safari

00:02:52   on both Mac OS and iOS.

00:02:54   I've been using it as my default search engine in Safari

00:02:58   for years.

00:02:59   And I don't know about a year or so ago,

00:03:01   I switched my iPhone two and I have not looked back.

00:03:04   It's that good.

00:03:05   I wouldn't say that just because they were sponsoring

00:03:07   the show, it's true.

00:03:09   So my thanks to DuckDuckGo.

00:03:10   You can check them out at duckduckgo.com

00:03:13   or just go to your Safari settings

00:03:17   and give them a try as your default search engine.

00:03:21   And now on with the show.

00:03:23   Hey, John.

00:03:25   Another quiet week?

00:03:27   Yeah, it's a good week.

00:03:32   All right, so let's just get it out of the way first.

00:03:35   During the keynote address, when you were demonstrating face ID

00:03:42   in action for the very first time in public--

00:03:45   Yes.

00:03:47   --ho, ho, ho.

00:03:49   Exactly according to plan.

00:03:51   You know, it's tough when you rehearse something like that

00:03:53   to really make it feel authentic in the moment,

00:03:55   but I think I nailed it.

00:03:57   No, I'm kidding.

00:03:58   No, no, that was a thing, wasn't it?

00:04:01   Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, so tell me

00:04:02   what happened.

00:04:03   - What happened?

00:04:06   So, you know, we obviously,

00:04:09   I live on a iPhone 10 right now

00:04:12   and it works really reliably for me.

00:04:14   And we had done the stage rehearsal a number of times.

00:04:18   Of course, it works every time.

00:04:20   So in the moment when I went to raise the phone

00:04:23   to do what I'm used to doing and having it unlock,

00:04:25   I was staring at a lock that did not unlock.

00:04:29   And so that was a heart attack moment for me, honestly.

00:04:32   You're just, it did not compute.

00:04:34   We discovered after the fact what had gone on,

00:04:38   but in the moment you're kind of wondering,

00:04:42   wow, this is a surprise.

00:04:44   So what had ended up happening is we had the phone

00:04:49   on the stage, and people are pretty fast

00:04:53   hideous about cleaning up and nudging things and so forth.

00:04:56   And so the normal kind of bio lockout mechanisms

00:05:00   that exist for Touch ID that everyone's used to apply

00:05:04   to Face ID equally.

00:05:06   And so with enough accidental unlock, failed unlock attempts,

00:05:11   the system does its normal give me your passcode kind

00:05:14   of lockout.

00:05:14   And that was the moment I found myself in unexpectedly

00:05:18   on stage.

00:05:19   So fortunately, we have backups.

00:05:21   So just went to that device, and that one apparently hadn't

00:05:24   been nudged and locked out.

00:05:25   So I was able to get on with the demo, which

00:05:28   was fun to do after that.

00:05:31   Right, so in other words, somebody backstage, somebody

00:05:34   whose job is to, let's say, get these demo units exactly

00:05:38   perfectly in the right place, looking perfect for the demo.

00:05:41   They're exquisitely aligned on that table.

00:05:43   You'd be impressed.

00:05:44   That's what I've heard.

00:05:46   - Can you confirm that they wear white gloves?

00:05:48   I've heard that they white gloves them.

00:05:51   - I'm not sure about the gloves,

00:05:52   but I can tell you they polished that phone really well.

00:05:55   Few too many times, I'm afraid.

00:05:59   - Right, it's the perfectionism in Apple.

00:06:02   Even on stage, if this is the first time

00:06:05   we're gonna see Face ID, that phone is gonna be pristine.

00:06:08   - Looking good, yeah.

00:06:10   - Somebody picked it up to polish it,

00:06:12   inadvertently without thinking,

00:06:16   triggered the, hey, is this Craig?

00:06:19   Nope.

00:06:19   And it was not.

00:06:20   Too many times.

00:06:21   And all you would have had to do is put the passcode in.

00:06:24   Yeah.

00:06:24   Just like if somebody--

00:06:26   Yeah, exactly.

00:06:26   And I thought of that, but I thought

00:06:27   that would be a pretty weird demo of face ID

00:06:29   where I had to have typed in the passcode.

00:06:31   Right.

00:06:32   Right.

00:06:32   So I decided to go to backup instead

00:06:34   of typing in the passcode.

00:06:35   But yeah, that would have worked too.

00:06:37   Now I will say to your credit, and I've heard this many times,

00:06:41   and I think it's true, is that the true test of a presenter--

00:06:44   Demos are hard, and Murphy's Law tends to kick in.

00:06:48   And the true test of a presenter isn't

00:06:51   having a streak of never having a demo fail.

00:06:54   It's how do you recover from a demo fail?

00:06:57   And I think you handled it perfectly.

00:06:59   I don't see how it could have gone any better, given--

00:07:01   Oh, thank you.

00:07:02   --the fact that the thing was already there.

00:07:04   But the problem is-- the reason this is a particularly bad demo

00:07:07   fail is that Face ID is new.

00:07:11   Yeah, exactly.

00:07:12   - Exactly.

00:07:13   - And people, and to be honest,

00:07:16   there are, there have been other attempts

00:07:19   by other phone makers or gadget makers

00:07:23   to do some kind of facial recognition thing,

00:07:25   and it doesn't work that great.

00:07:28   And so there's a perception, in the same way

00:07:30   that there were fingerprint scanners before Touch ID

00:07:34   that didn't work so great.

00:07:35   - Oh yeah, exactly.

00:07:36   - And the perception among people who don't try it is,

00:07:38   I don't buy it.

00:07:39   I'm skeptical about Face ID.

00:07:42   And then lo and behold, there, at a glance,

00:07:45   it looks like it didn't work for you.

00:07:47   - Right, yeah, no, no, I mean,

00:07:50   that element of this is not lost on me, for sure.

00:07:52   That was unfortunate because it does work so well.

00:07:56   And it is, I mean, it's obviously

00:07:58   in a totally different league than what else

00:08:00   is out there today.

00:08:02   And we all, a bunch of us have been living on them

00:08:05   for quite a while now, and it just works.

00:08:08   It's really automatic.

00:08:09   So that was part of the shock, I think, for me on stage,

00:08:13   the moment it happened was, hold on, this just always works.

00:08:15   So what's going on?

00:08:17   But no, I get why there's a problem.

00:08:19   And honestly, we're just all counting the days

00:08:23   that customers can finally get their hands on these.

00:08:25   Because I think just like with Touch ID,

00:08:28   initially people thought, oh, Apple

00:08:30   done something that's totally not going to work.

00:08:32   And I'm not a believer.

00:08:33   And I'm not going to use this feature.

00:08:35   And now everyone's worried because they can't imagine life

00:08:39   without Touch ID.

00:08:40   And we're going to see exactly the same thing with Face ID.

00:08:44   I mean, those of us that are using it,

00:08:46   it's one thing when you have an idea

00:08:49   and you're working toward it and you

00:08:51   think it's going to be great.

00:08:53   And then there's the moment when you actually create it

00:08:55   and you get to live on it.

00:08:57   And it's even better.

00:08:58   And that's how all of us were virtually

00:09:01   high-fiving in the halls once we got it all dialed in

00:09:04   and we were living on them, we're like,

00:09:06   it is what we thought it would be.

00:09:08   You don't even think about it.

00:09:09   It just works.

00:09:10   And so in a way, all of this uncertainty

00:09:15   out there amongst people who haven't had the opportunity

00:09:17   to live on it, I totally get it.

00:09:18   And it's going to melt away once people

00:09:21   get to experience this product in their hands.

00:09:25   And a skeptic listening to this could say, well, of course,

00:09:28   Apple's senior vice president of software engineering

00:09:31   is going to say that.

00:09:32   I can say that I have various friends and acquaintances

00:09:36   who work in your division.

00:09:38   I happened to run into a few of them

00:09:42   while I was out there this week,

00:09:44   including somebody else who was disclosed,

00:09:47   this is on iPhone 10,

00:09:49   and had therefore been carrying two phones around

00:09:52   for a while because it's, you know,

00:09:56   if you're disclosed on it, you can't take it out

00:09:58   when you're around people who aren't disclosed.

00:10:00   So you have to have another phone in your pocket

00:10:02   which is the one you can take out when you're in an area

00:10:05   that's not secure.

00:10:06   And what he told me, and he's the sort of person

00:10:09   who would never lie to me.

00:10:12   He may give me a non-answer, but he said,

00:10:14   as soon as he got used to Face ID,

00:10:16   it wasn't like he'd get mixed up going back and forth,

00:10:19   which one do I need to put my thumb on,

00:10:20   which one do I do it?

00:10:21   He just instantly assumed Face ID would work on both phones.

00:10:25   And instantly, never miss Touch ID.

00:10:31   it was like, what's wrong with this phone?

00:10:32   Why isn't it unlocking?

00:10:34   And he's swiping up from the bottom

00:10:35   and it's not doing anything.

00:10:37   And that was the experience I had personally with touch ID

00:10:40   is when I first got a iPhone 5S and I got used to touch ID

00:10:44   and then I'd go over to my iPad

00:10:46   and I'd put my thumb on the button and I'd be like,

00:10:47   why is my iPad broken?

00:10:50   - Yeah, no, I'm totally with you.

00:10:53   - So it sounds like for those of you

00:10:54   who've been living with iPhone 10

00:10:55   that face ID has the same effect.

00:10:58   - Yeah, it absolutely does.

00:11:00   It absolutely does.

00:11:01   It's pretty miraculous.

00:11:04   It just works.

00:11:06   And so, yeah, I can't wait till people actually get to try it.

00:11:10   And you don't have to--

00:11:11   even Touch ID, as much as we love it,

00:11:14   I think this is that much better.

00:11:16   If my hands are wet, it doesn't matter.

00:11:18   It just works.

00:11:19   So I think it's pretty great.

00:11:22   So I know people have so many questions.

00:11:24   I could just run through a bunch of them.

00:11:27   I've gotten a slew of emails and tweets asking specifically

00:11:30   about sunglasses because part of it is,

00:11:34   it's not just your face, it requires eye contact.

00:11:38   So for example, your kids can't sneak up on you

00:11:42   when you're sleeping and unlock your phone

00:11:44   by pointing it at your face.

00:11:45   - That's exactly right, yeah, we call it attention detection

00:11:48   and so we make sure not only that it's you

00:11:50   but that you are looking at the phone.

00:11:53   - All right, so what happens if you're wearing sunglasses?

00:11:55   - Yeah, so it kinda depends.

00:11:56   So for most sunglasses, actually,

00:11:59   even if they're opaque to, they look opaque to you or me

00:12:02   looking at the person wearing them,

00:12:04   they actually transmit IR.

00:12:06   And for those glasses, Touch ID, or Face ID rather,

00:12:10   sees through them in the same way it would

00:12:13   if you were wearing your normal prescription eyeglasses,

00:12:15   and it just works.

00:12:16   And there are some glasses that they're coating,

00:12:20   and it's not polarization in particular,

00:12:22   it's just how they transmit IR.

00:12:24   There are some sunglasses that block it.

00:12:26   And so in that case, attention detection would fail.

00:12:31   So it really depends on the pair of glasses you have.

00:12:33   So you have a choice.

00:12:34   You can get a different pair of glasses

00:12:35   if you have this problem.

00:12:37   There's also the option that we have in there

00:12:40   for a number of reasons that you can choose to temporarily

00:12:43   or permanently disable attention detection.

00:12:45   And so for instance, I've actually

00:12:47   been getting some letters, emails,

00:12:49   over the last few days with people saying, I'm blind.

00:12:53   Can I use this feature?

00:12:55   And in fact, you can.

00:12:57   You turn off attention detection,

00:12:59   in which case it makes sure it's you,

00:13:01   but it isn't looking for the glance.

00:13:03   And so we've sort of thought through

00:13:05   a lot of those kinds of cases.

00:13:06   And so you do have that option

00:13:08   if there's something around your face wear

00:13:10   that would block attention detection,

00:13:12   but it does mean, in that case,

00:13:14   that that other element of protection

00:13:15   would be temporarily disabled.

00:13:18   - Right, and it would be similar to,

00:13:21   my hands are always wet.

00:13:22   I have a job where I'm preparing stuff

00:13:24   and my hands are wet, will Touch ID always work for me?

00:13:27   And so there's always gonna be exceptions.

00:13:29   I'm not making excuses for you, but it can't be perfect.

00:13:32   - No, it's true, and we've always had the fallback

00:13:35   with Touch ID and we do with Face ID as well,

00:13:37   is you can use your passcode.

00:13:39   So if you find yourself in some circumstance

00:13:41   where you can't use it, it's exactly the same

00:13:44   as all of us are used to with Touch ID,

00:13:46   just use your passcode.

00:13:48   But I'm certainly finding the vast majority

00:13:51   of the cases I'm using, it's always working for me.

00:13:53   I don't even have to think about it.

00:13:54   - Right.

00:13:55   And so bottom line, this really is what you guys think

00:14:01   is the next generation of biometric authentication.

00:14:07   It's not just, hey, we went edge to edge

00:14:10   so there wasn't room for touch ID.

00:14:12   It's no, this is along the lines of this,

00:14:16   we think this is the future of the iPhone.

00:14:18   Face ID is the future, the next step

00:14:21   in biometric authentication?

00:14:25   Yeah, we do.

00:14:26   We do.

00:14:26   I mean, I think there are potentially

00:14:28   settings where different biometric techniques

00:14:32   or combinations thereof even could make sense.

00:14:34   But I think there's something about you're using--

00:14:38   certainly in cases you're using a product that

00:14:41   demands your attention and it recognizes you.

00:14:44   And I mean, this is how we as people

00:14:46   work in authenticating each other, right?

00:14:48   We identify each other.

00:14:49   It's the most natural thing in the world.

00:14:51   And now you interact.

00:14:52   And so we find--

00:14:53   I think we're all wired for that interaction to work really well.

00:14:56   And it's extremely natural with our devices.

00:15:00   And the levels of accuracy, the level of security

00:15:05   we're able to achieve with it are pretty extraordinary.

00:15:07   So we are really excited about this as the path forward.

00:15:13   And so for example, your iPhone, just based on, let's say,

00:15:17   your email and your iMessages alone,

00:15:20   probably contains some sensitive information.

00:15:23   - Yeah.

00:15:24   - And you yourself have, the phone in your pocket

00:15:26   is guarded by Face ID.

00:15:29   - That is absolutely correct, yes.

00:15:31   At this very moment.

00:15:32   - So there you have it.

00:15:34   If that's not trust in a system, I don't know what is.

00:15:37   - That's right, and same is true for Tim Cook, right?

00:15:40   Everyone at Apple is trusting Face ID.

00:15:45   Everyone who has access to an iPhone X right now.

00:15:48   All right, so another thing that people--

00:15:50   I've heard from during Fireball readers

00:15:53   is, well, why can't I just look at it to unlock it?

00:15:55   Why do I have to swipe?

00:15:58   Yeah, I've gotten that one too.

00:16:01   I think if you think about--

00:16:03   a lot of us like functionality on the lock screen, right?

00:16:06   We want to look at our notifications.

00:16:07   Maybe we're just looking at the time.

00:16:10   Maybe we wanted to get to the lock screen camera.

00:16:13   And we now have a quick shortcut, actually,

00:16:15   to get at the flashlight.

00:16:17   So the idea that every time you did one of those things,

00:16:19   you're suddenly tossed into mail or Twitter

00:16:23   or whatever you were last doing, I don't think

00:16:26   is a very predictable experience.

00:16:28   And I think those people are fearful of--

00:16:31   they haven't had the opportunity to really live on the device

00:16:33   and use it.

00:16:34   And so they have a sense that this doing the swipe

00:16:38   is going to somehow be a barrier.

00:16:41   So they're trying to solve a problem that, in fact, when you

00:16:43   use the device doesn't exist.

00:16:46   They think you have to wait for it to unlock,

00:16:48   and then you swipe, and so it's going to feel unresponsive.

00:16:50   The fact is that the moment you raise the phone,

00:16:54   you can start swiping whether it's

00:16:55   finished recognizing you or not.

00:16:57   And if that's what you wanted to do,

00:16:59   it's going to automatically take you--

00:17:01   it's going to automatically unlock

00:17:02   once it finishes, recognizes you, which feels

00:17:04   pretty much instantaneous.

00:17:06   And so I think preserving the access to the lock screen

00:17:10   is more important than avoiding this swipe

00:17:15   that I think to all of us who live on it,

00:17:17   it just feels completely automatic and intentional

00:17:20   in the use of the phone.

00:17:21   - With all the nostalgia over this being

00:17:25   the 10th anniversary of the original iPhone,

00:17:27   somebody just on Twitter today,

00:17:29   or no, I don't know, somewhere,

00:17:31   somebody threw up a link to a YouTube clip

00:17:34   of the original iPhone commercials from 2007.

00:17:39   And it starts with this is how you unlock it

00:17:43   and you swipe to unlock.

00:17:45   And it was sort of a, I mean it was only 10 years ago

00:17:48   but it's sort of like we were naive about security

00:17:51   at the time where it was sort of,

00:17:52   it was encouraged to just wake the phone

00:17:57   and swipe to unlock and you're in there

00:17:59   and the last 10 years we've,

00:18:01   we as a culture have really sharpened our minds

00:18:05   on privacy and security.

00:18:08   But this sort of goes back to that

00:18:10   where you just pick it up even better than before

00:18:13   'cause there's the detection of the,

00:18:16   the screen turns on just by picking it up.

00:18:18   And you just make one little swipe gesture and you're in.

00:18:22   It really hearkens back to the original.

00:18:24   It's up instead of to the side,

00:18:26   but it's very similar to me.

00:18:28   - Exactly, yeah, no, it does.

00:18:31   And it's, as you say, it's even easier to do,

00:18:34   it's even more automatic.

00:18:35   But it's the same sense of when you think about that,

00:18:38   the original device where security wasn't a consideration,

00:18:43   that was the best way to use the phone.

00:18:47   And now with Face ID, it's as if you can just use it

00:18:51   in the most natural way where security

00:18:53   isn't this overt part of the process.

00:18:55   It's automatic, so the experience is back

00:18:58   to exactly as we wanted it to be.

00:19:00   - While I have you, Apple famously,

00:19:07   I mean, this is right back from the founding of the company.

00:19:12   Famously, the key to the company's product success

00:19:16   has been the integration between software and hardware,

00:19:19   doing both of them.

00:19:22   But at this point, and I think with the hardware

00:19:29   for the Face ID that's in the phone,

00:19:32   It's not like you guys went out and got an off-the-shelf face scanner component.

00:19:40   Put it at the top of the phone, and then your team--

00:19:44   all right, now your job is to write drivers for this thing

00:19:47   and then create APIs for our developers to connect to it.

00:19:51   Right.

00:19:53   The entire-- from the silicon up is custom Apple-designed.

00:19:59   How different is that for your team working

00:20:02   at that silicon level as opposed to off-the-shelf component

00:20:05   level with the hardware?

00:20:07   I mean, this is--

00:20:08   I mean, you're right.

00:20:10   This is what makes Apple, Apple.

00:20:11   I mean, this is the most special and the biggest treat

00:20:14   as a creator of products for all of us

00:20:17   to be able to look at a problem like this

00:20:20   and know that we can put the right support that we want

00:20:24   onto the core silicon of the system.

00:20:28   We-- Phil talked about the neural engine that's

00:20:32   on the chip that we could wire in for doing

00:20:35   this high-performance recognition,

00:20:37   this challenging recognition task,

00:20:39   and that we can even make sure that the silicon that we've

00:20:42   built to do it is tied in behind the secure enclave

00:20:45   so that we have all the security properties we

00:20:48   want in that architecture.

00:20:49   I mean, I can't imagine where you

00:20:50   would buy that off the shelf.

00:20:53   And then the way it is connected to this just absolutely

00:20:56   amazing set of sensors at the top of the phone,

00:21:02   and the design of that, and the design of how the flood

00:21:06   illuminator and the dot pattern and all the mechanisms

00:21:09   for recognition, that was co-designed

00:21:11   between the hardware and sensors team and our security team

00:21:15   to figure out all of the different ways we wanted that

00:21:18   to work securely to make sure that the device could store

00:21:22   what it needed to match your face without making sure

00:21:25   that that information was completely

00:21:27   under your control, locked up behind the secure enclave

00:21:31   and never left your phone.

00:21:34   All of this is the ability to think about a really hard

00:21:38   problem end to end and then bring

00:21:40   to bear the best minds and the best technologies

00:21:44   at every level along that stack to deliver it

00:21:47   is the most special experience in creating a product.

00:21:52   And that's why it is kind of magic when it finally

00:21:54   all comes together.

00:21:55   It wasn't just a bunch of pieces that you bolted together.

00:21:58   You had an idea, you had a vision,

00:22:00   and here you can make it real.

00:22:03   Yeah, I was thinking software and hardware.

00:22:05   I wasn't even thinking about security

00:22:07   being a fundamental part of the collaboration

00:22:11   from the white sheet of paper at the beginning

00:22:14   of the whole process to the end.

00:22:16   But that makes a lot of sense, too.

00:22:18   It really has become--

00:22:20   I mean, security and privacy have

00:22:22   become a consideration in the design of so many

00:22:25   of the things we do, many, many of the things we do.

00:22:28   And to do them right, you have to think about them

00:22:31   at a fundamental level.

00:22:32   You have to design them in, often to the silicon,

00:22:35   often to the hardware, to really make a truly secure product.

00:22:40   And we have the opportunity to do that.

00:22:42   And it's a rare opportunity, I think.

00:22:44   Right, I'm imagining if it was just hardware and software,

00:22:47   and you made a facial ID scanner,

00:22:49   and then a couple of months ago went to the security guys

00:22:52   And I'm like, here, make sure this is secure.

00:22:54   Yeah, right.

00:22:55   It's got a little USB line between the camera and the chip

00:22:59   and no problem.

00:23:00   Yeah, exactly.

00:23:02   No, and it's true.

00:23:03   I should say one more thing, which

00:23:05   is this even ops, our operations and manufacturing team,

00:23:09   ends up being involved here.

00:23:10   Because when you think about how you secure this thing,

00:23:13   you now have all these components

00:23:15   that need to trust each other and need

00:23:17   to have secure connections to one another.

00:23:19   And so even the whole process by which we manufacture and then

00:23:24   pair all of the components on the system

00:23:28   has to be considered as part of the manufacturing process.

00:23:32   And this is something that we think about end to end

00:23:34   when we build a product.

00:23:36   And I do think it's pretty special.

00:23:40   Let's say I'm an app developer, and I

00:23:42   have an app that already works with Touch ID, like my credit

00:23:47   card app.

00:23:48   When I launch that app, I have to authenticate with Touch ID

00:23:51   before I'm in.

00:23:54   Would an app like that-- does an app like that need to be updated

00:23:57   to support Face ID, too?

00:23:59   No, actually, we were able to support exactly the same API.

00:24:03   So if you think about how it works right now,

00:24:05   that app would essentially-- it asks the system to request

00:24:11   a Touch ID authentication.

00:24:14   Now, instead of waiting for the user

00:24:17   to put their finger on the sensor

00:24:20   and complete a Touch ID authentication,

00:24:22   we automatically, at the system level,

00:24:25   will surface our face ID UI showing

00:24:29   that we're doing a match.

00:24:31   And we can return the same success code

00:24:33   to the application saying, great, thumbs up or thumbs down,

00:24:37   as if the system had presented the previous generation Touch

00:24:41   ID screen and the user had failed to match or canceled out

00:24:44   of the Touch ID operation.

00:24:46   So it's extraordinary that right now we're all running on apps

00:24:50   that were designed for Touch ID.

00:24:51   And they work just perfectly out of the box with Face ID.

00:24:55   It's almost like you guys might have had an idea of what

00:24:58   might be coming down the line.

00:25:00   We like to think we think ahead sometimes.

00:25:04   All right, here's a scenario that, for obvious reasons,

00:25:09   is on a lot of people's minds is what happens if you are, say, involved in a situation with

00:25:20   law enforcement or perhaps going through customs and there, you know, I don't know what the

00:25:28   laws are around the world, but I know that there's this, to me, very strange, there's

00:25:34   been a ruling in the United States that law enforcement can compel somebody to supply

00:25:39   their fingerprint to a phone, but can't compel somebody to supply their passcode. So we're

00:25:46   not lawyers, let's forget about the legal distinction. iOS 11 adds a feature where you

00:25:53   can press the side button on an iPhone, existing iPhones at least, five times. And then all

00:26:02   it does is just put you in a situation like you are after a power down power up where

00:26:06   where you have to supply your passcode

00:26:08   before the biometrics can unlock the phone.

00:26:12   - Yeah, exactly.

00:26:13   - I think people are,

00:26:15   I know, in fact, I know people are more worried about this

00:26:18   with Face ID than Touch ID

00:26:19   because compelling someone to supply their fingerprint

00:26:22   involves more than just if somebody is in possession

00:26:27   of your phone, pointing it at your face

00:26:30   and making you look at it.

00:26:31   So is there anything like that, some kind of way to--

00:26:36   I mean, first I'd say we aren't designing products with an aim

00:26:40   to avoid law enforcement doing their job.

00:26:44   We appreciate law enforcement.

00:26:48   But there are lots of scenarios where someone who you don't

00:26:51   trust might be trying to get your phone.

00:26:55   That could be a thief coming for you.

00:26:57   That could be a border crossing into a country

00:26:59   where you think the people who are trying to inspect

00:27:01   your phone may not be someone you trust.

00:27:04   And in those situations, as you mentioned,

00:27:07   we introduced this new capability with iOS 11,

00:27:13   where you can basically force the device into biolock.

00:27:16   We made it even easier to get to on iPhone 8 and iPhone 10,

00:27:21   where on iPhone 8 and 10, you can just grip the side button.

00:27:25   So both the screen lock button on the right hand

00:27:28   side of the phone and either of the volume buttons

00:27:30   on the left, and just grip those two together for a few seconds

00:27:34   and we will put the phone in biolock.

00:27:36   So it's the kind of thing that you could do in your pocket

00:27:41   as you were being compelled to hand your phone to someone

00:27:45   you didn't trust.

00:27:46   And then they can't use either touch ID or, in the case

00:27:51   of iPhone 10, face ID to try to get access to your phone.

00:27:55   And we think that's an important improvement across the board.

00:27:59   On iPhone 10, does that not conflict

00:28:02   with taking a screenshot?

00:28:03   I thought I read somewhere that to take a screenshot,

00:28:05   you do the side button and volume down.

00:28:07   Yeah, it does turn out you get a bonus screenshot out

00:28:09   of the experience in the current build.

00:28:11   But we are looking at saying, if you hold the buttons down,

00:28:13   maybe we'll throw the screenshot away for you automatically.

00:28:16   You could consider it a sort of a commemorative screenshot

00:28:19   for that particular moment.

00:28:21   I got you.

00:28:22   I got you, though.

00:28:23   You side button and just tap and release on volume down.

00:28:25   Yeah, just claw your phone, basically.

00:28:26   Yeah, just grip it.

00:28:27   No, but if you just want to take a screenshot,

00:28:29   it's just two buttons.

00:28:31   You press them to invoke this.

00:28:32   - When they let go.

00:28:34   - To invoke this, turn off face ID temporarily,

00:28:37   you press and hold them.

00:28:39   - Yeah, exactly.

00:28:40   It's the difference between sort of click

00:28:41   and click and hold.

00:28:42   Right now we're firing the click on the click and hold

00:28:46   and that need not be a conflict.

00:28:48   - Right, and with the five button press

00:28:51   on the iPhone 7 and earlier,

00:28:53   you even get a nice bit of haptic feedback now

00:28:56   to know that it triggered.

00:28:57   Is there something like that with the press both buttons?

00:29:00   - Same thing.

00:29:01   - You get a haptic so you know you've done it, exactly.

00:29:04   - Right, so that's brilliant.

00:29:05   So let's just say, and thieves are a perfect example.

00:29:08   I know that that's something that people are worried about,

00:29:10   is hey, what if somebody steals my phone

00:29:13   and they quick turn it around and I look at it

00:29:15   and it's unlocked.

00:29:17   So if somebody, like if you're getting mugged,

00:29:19   I hope nobody does, but if somebody is getting mugged

00:29:22   and they say, "Give me your phone,"

00:29:23   as you're handing it to them, if you squeeze those buttons,

00:29:26   it will disable Face ID.

00:29:29   - Exactly.

00:29:31   So they've got your phone, but they won't have your,

00:29:33   they won't have an unlocked phone.

00:29:34   - That is right, yep.

00:29:36   - Seems like you guys thought of a lot of this stuff.

00:29:40   - We try, we try, but the folks on the internet

00:29:43   are constantly coming up with new questions,

00:29:45   so I'm sure we'll learn something.

00:29:46   - Well, Craig, it's always a pleasure

00:29:50   to have you on the show.

00:29:52   You're welcome back anytime you want.

00:29:54   - Oh, thank you, John.

00:29:55   - But like I said, you're probably pretty busy this week, so.

00:30:00   Exciting week.

00:30:00   That's about it for me.

00:30:01   Good week.

00:30:01   Yeah.

00:30:02   All right, awesome.

00:30:03   I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you.

00:30:06   All right.

00:30:06   Till next time, Craig.

00:30:07   Thank you.

00:30:08   All right.

00:30:08   Thanks, John.