The Talk Show

195: ‘I Do Like Throwing a Baby’ With John Moltz


00:00:00   You ready for this?

00:00:02   Yes.

00:00:04   I have to...

00:00:06   You do more podcasts than I do. You do a bunch.

00:00:08   And so I feel like

00:00:10   you've got better podcasts.

00:00:12   Mine aren't as long though. I'm not sure if I do have

00:00:14   mine add up in time to the amount that you...

00:00:16   Right. I

00:00:18   need to work up like a head of steam.

00:00:20   But then once I get it going

00:00:22   it goes. But it's breaking that...

00:00:24   Oh man. I don't know.

00:00:26   I just got a lot going on here.

00:00:28   Anyway, we got a interesting, interesting week. I mean, there's a bunch of it is crazy.

00:00:35   Like, you know, like after like a few weeks after WWDC and and you often I think this

00:00:40   time is not necessarily like going on. But I think part of it is just that there's stuff

00:00:47   that's in the general tech news sphere that is just happens to be erupting like the whole

00:00:52   Uber thing and Amazon buying Whole Foods.

00:00:57   And that's just coincidental.

00:00:58   But then part of it too is a bunch of the stuff

00:01:01   we wanna talk about is 10 year iPhone anniversary,

00:01:03   which isn't coincidental.

00:01:05   So it's not a surprise, but it is unusual

00:01:08   where I feel like, and maybe I'm just misremembering,

00:01:11   but it seems to me like after most WWDCs,

00:01:14   the rest of the month we just talk about

00:01:15   what happened at WWDC and I feel like

00:01:17   we don't even have time today to go back

00:01:19   to anything from WWDC.

00:01:21   Right, yeah, rehash that.

00:01:22   - Have you seen the new iPad yet?

00:01:26   - I did, yeah, yeah, I managed to get over the storage,

00:01:30   take a look at it.

00:01:32   I think, you mean the 10.5 inch?

00:01:34   - Yes, exactly.

00:01:34   - Yeah, yeah. - With ProMotion.

00:01:36   - You know, in not having my 9.7 inch one with me,

00:01:41   it didn't really notice the difference, frankly.

00:01:44   - No, not really.

00:01:45   - I think if I held them up together,

00:01:46   I would notice the difference, but it didn't see,

00:01:47   it seemed like, oh, this is the same,

00:01:49   like I had to ask somebody, I was like,

00:01:50   This is the 10.5.

00:01:51   - Yeah, it totally has that effect.

00:01:55   But then Amy has a 9.7 here, and hers is white,

00:02:00   which I think really accentuates the bezels.

00:02:03   And all of a sudden, it's like it makes that,

00:02:07   the 9.7 Pro, which is like the same dimensions

00:02:10   as the iPad Air and later, it makes them feel

00:02:14   like they're the old original iPods

00:02:16   with the big, inch-thick bezels all along every side.

00:02:19   Right. It's like, all of a sudden it's like, why do they have these thick

00:02:21   bezels all over the place?

00:02:22   I'm a little worried about, uh, I think sometimes I, even with, uh, I have

00:02:28   an iPad air too, and even with that, I extraneous Lee touch along the side

00:02:34   of the, the bezel sometimes.

00:02:35   Um, and I'm a little concerned that that's going to just get worse.

00:02:39   But, um, but I think, you know, eventually I think I'm, I'm going to get to,

00:02:43   I'm going to get a 10.5 inch.

00:02:45   Yeah.

00:02:45   I think it was fantastic.

00:02:47   Dan, did you, did you notice the promotion?

00:02:49   scrolling? Yeah, yeah, I did. It's really smooth. I mean, it just gets better and better.

00:02:58   But the whole reason I ask is because it really is the one thing that they announced that

00:03:02   you have to see to believe. You know what I mean? I don't need to see the new MacBook.

00:03:07   I get it. I know what those displays look like. I know what the keyboard's like. I can

00:03:13   kind of imagine it, you know?

00:03:14   - Yeah.

00:03:15   - But the promotion you really have to see.

00:03:17   - Yeah.

00:03:19   - I hope that--

00:03:20   - I'm actually looking forward to, well, I mean,

00:03:21   I think the, so I'm kind of waiting just because

00:03:23   I want to wait until iOS 11 comes out.

00:03:26   - Yeah.

00:03:27   - And I'm, you know, maybe sometime in November,

00:03:29   I'll be like, that's what my birthday is too, so.

00:03:31   Speaking of coincidences.

00:03:35   - Well, the other thing too is it seems like

00:03:38   iPad development has slowed down a little bit.

00:03:41   like so if you plan to wait until iOS 11 comes out in October or whenever, I don't think you have any

00:03:47   fear that you're not getting your money's worth out of it, you know, like because even what's the

00:03:52   soonest they could replace it would be next June at WWDC, you know, so what? Yeah, and I just feel

00:03:58   like with this this jump to promotion, I really doubt that the next iPhone or iPad is going to

00:04:04   have something that really makes you regret it. It feels like this is the... I already had my Macbook

00:04:08   pro-obsoleted, so what difference does it make?

00:04:13   The other thing I've saw, and it's pretty interesting,

00:04:15   because I don't have this complaint,

00:04:17   even though I'm a nitpicky person and I notice details.

00:04:20   But ever since iOS 7 come out, there's

00:04:22   a faction of people who feel like the animations in the OS

00:04:26   have gotten too slow and stuttery.

00:04:29   Either that it takes too long or that-- especially,

00:04:32   there's people who complain about the frame

00:04:34   rate of the animations, like when you hit the home button

00:04:36   and the app zooms out and stuff.

00:04:38   And I think I see what they mean, but it somehow doesn't bother me.

00:04:41   But I think I would say that I notice it a little bit, but I'm running an iPhone SE.

00:04:47   Yeah. And I don't think I notice it on my iPad here too.

00:04:51   Yeah, but I don't know about that. I feel like the SE is such an overpowered GPU for the tiny

00:04:57   little screen that I almost feel like if you see it on the SE, it's proof that it's a real thing.

00:05:02   Yeah, it could be.

00:05:03   Like the SE is not a weak iPhone.

00:05:07   Like if you were still running the 5S, then yes.

00:05:10   Then there's a reason for it.

00:05:12   But I kind of feel like the fact that if you kind of notice

00:05:15   it on the SE, that's the proof of it.

00:05:17   I feel like ProMotion puts that to rest.

00:05:20   And they're probably similar.

00:05:21   Like my iPad Air 2 and my SE, I don't

00:05:23   know off the top of my head.

00:05:24   But they're probably similar processors, if not the same,

00:05:27   right?

00:05:27   Yeah, I think so.

00:05:30   So I don't know why.

00:05:31   I mean, I don't use my iPad Air 2 as much.

00:05:33   I mean, maybe that's why, but.

00:05:36   - Yeah, so anyway, I feel like that's the answer

00:05:38   to anybody who has complaints about the frame rate of stuff.

00:05:40   - Just get a 10.5 inch iPad.

00:05:45   - Get a new iPad.

00:05:45   - Yeah. (laughs)

00:05:48   - Oh, follow up, I have a bit of follow up

00:05:51   from my show last week with Serenity Caldwell,

00:05:53   where, surprise, surprise, I got off on a tangent.

00:05:57   We were talking about pencils,

00:05:59   and I was talking about my favorite pencil

00:06:01   from high school, the Dixon Ticonderoga,

00:06:04   and how they've gone downhill,

00:06:06   because back then they were made in America

00:06:08   from American timber and graphite

00:06:11   and an old American factory with American standards

00:06:14   and now they're cheap pieces of crap made in China.

00:06:17   I just cannot even believe that they,

00:06:20   I can't believe they put the name on them.

00:06:22   Anyway, I got a nice note from a guy named Michael Hagen

00:06:26   who writes a blog called Leadfast,

00:06:29   L-E-A-D-F-A-S-T dot org.

00:06:32   And it's an entire blog devoted to pencils.

00:06:35   - Wow. - And notebooks.

00:06:36   And it's really nice.

00:06:38   I'm gonna put a link to the show notes.

00:06:40   'Cause he's, he was, as you might imagine,

00:06:44   somebody who writes an entire blog devoted to pencils,

00:06:46   he's got very strong opinions,

00:06:47   noted that I was exactly correct

00:06:50   that the Chinese made Dixon Ticonderogurs,

00:06:52   were made from substandard wood and substandard lead,

00:06:55   and even had sloppy paint jobs on the, oh my God,

00:06:59   I just learned the name from it, of it on his blog.

00:07:01   The metal thing that connects the wood to the eraser.

00:07:05   It's called like a ferrule or something like that.

00:07:08   They even got sloppy on the paint job on that.

00:07:10   And that's like Dixon Ticonderoga's brand,

00:07:12   like the green ferrule with the yellow stripe

00:07:15   around the middle.

00:07:16   Like when you think an iconic pencil,

00:07:18   like if you just think, go to Getty Images

00:07:20   and look at a pencil, you're looking,

00:07:22   what you have in your mind is a Dixon Ticonderoga.

00:07:24   Anyway, the good news is,

00:07:27   is even though they're still made in China,

00:07:28   There's actually some recent ones that they've gone back to American cedar and and the quality is actually actually gone up. No

00:07:35   So how many pencils how many pencils to use in a regular basis? I I don't use pencils anymore

00:07:40   I haven't used a pencil in 20 years because they're so crappy or just be no because I've switched depends

00:07:47   Yeah, and I don't I very seldom have a need to erase anything. I don't make mistakes

00:07:53   Does does Jonas have like a hundred of them lying around for school? He loses pencils left and right?

00:07:58   It never has a pencil. I don't understand how that can be. We buy a lot of pencils and

00:08:03   And he's never got him and it always looks he's got like a pencil that's half the size it should be and has no eraser

00:08:12   Yeah, and that's what Hank has and we have to address this issue

00:08:17   We have a box of those big arrowhead

00:08:22   erasers that you know the the extra eraser you pop on yeah and they're right in my office every

00:08:27   you know that's not hidden everybody knows where they are so there's no reason not to have an

00:08:30   eraser and then he'll sit there and do his homework and and like not be able to erase stuff it's very

00:08:38   frustrating don't get me started years ago i got a box of black feet indian pencils oh man those

00:08:46   which i think was a rerun of them or something like that um i think it was like all the way back

00:08:50   in the 90s and I've just been working through those. I mean the erasers are like rock hard now,

00:08:54   so the erasers are basically useless, but the pens feel nice. They're pencils, they feel really good.

00:08:59   So I still have like eight of them in there. I have a box of Dixon Ticonderogas from the 90s

00:09:07   that I'm sure are the good ones, but I feel like I made the same critical mistake that you just

00:09:12   mentioned, which is that I thought I could save these for the rest of my life. I always have

00:09:15   pencils but now the erasers are like when you're younger you didn't know you

00:09:20   might not have known that that happens but I could still use them and put those

00:09:23   the that's right you got it you know where those are it was sort of like the

00:09:28   original like iPhone case peripherals the upsell yeah the other thing have you

00:09:37   noticed it I mean everybody I think with kids knows this now but it's like part

00:09:41   of the great sir I mean this in all sincerity the decline of American

00:09:45   society. I really mean it. Part of it is that schools are now short of supplies.

00:09:51   Again, kids, you have to come to school with your own pencils and paper and

00:09:55   stuff like that. Like when I was a kid, I went to public school,

00:09:59   there was an endless supply of paper and pencils. I mean, I guess pencils they kind

00:10:04   of metered out, but you didn't have to bring your own, you know, that you'd

00:10:08   be given a pencil. Yeah, but they didn't have to buy computers. I mean,

00:10:14   Maybe they had much more a lot more money to spend on pencils because they weren't spending like

00:10:18   And you always see these 500 bucks on a computer for each kid and you hear about these teachers

00:10:23   You know who out of their own salary broke by paper and and scissors and stuff like that. It's nuts. How's that possible?

00:10:30   It's absolutely horrendous. Yeah, so my whole but I gave a bunch of money earlier this year to like there's a

00:10:35   There's a site where you can donate to teachers projects. I would do that. That's a good. Yes. Yeah

00:10:43   I'll see if I can find it and send it to you.

00:10:44   But yeah, it's just that you read through the thing

00:10:47   and you're thinking like, why does it have to be done?

00:10:49   Like it's the same thing with like the kickstarters

00:10:51   for people's healthcare.

00:10:52   - Yeah, exactly.

00:10:53   Why this should not be a thing.

00:10:55   - This is not the way,

00:10:56   this is not the way a world-class country should operate.

00:10:59   - Let me take a break and thank our first sponsor

00:11:00   to get this show going.

00:11:02   Really, we gotta keep, we gotta get,

00:11:03   keep me, keep me going, John.

00:11:04   You gotta keep me, keep me, keep me moving.

00:11:06   - Trying.

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00:13:36   thanks to mail route for their continuing support of the talk show. Okay, so some follow up from

00:13:42   earlier in in this episode. Okay. The the SE has an A nine chip and the air two has an A eight x.

00:13:52   So it's probably me. Yeah.

00:14:03   what else can we talk about here? Yeah, you want to wade into one of the big ones? Well,

00:14:09   let's do the big one. I think the biggest one and the one that is has the most historical value,

00:14:15   no, no pun intended, it was John Markoff hosting a discussion at the Computer History Museum out in

00:14:22   Mountain View, California, where he had first discussion with three guys from the original

00:14:29   iPhone team Hugo

00:14:31   Finds I'm not quite sure how to pronounce his surname

00:14:33   Nitin ganatra and

00:14:36   Scott hearse

00:14:39   Nitin I know him I've met him. He's a very nice guy and he's been on the debug podcast with

00:14:46   yeah guy English and Renee Ritchie with Don Melton who was

00:14:52   Who's a great guy? He's a was a big shot on the Safari team

00:14:58   and is now out of Apple and has no fucks left to give.

00:15:03   (laughing)

00:15:05   That's true, you can see it with those guys on stage,

00:15:07   you know what I mean?

00:15:08   - Yeah.

00:15:09   - And good Apple people remain Apple people

00:15:12   and they're not telling, there's no stories that they told

00:15:14   that I would consider out of turn,

00:15:16   they're certainly not spilling secrets,

00:15:18   but there's a relaxedness to them

00:15:20   that active Apple employees, especially the ones

00:15:24   with the most responsibilities, just don't have.

00:15:27   The funny one was, I think it was Hertz said, it's like someone was bugging him for something,

00:15:34   like "When's this, when are we gonna get this, when are we gonna get this?"

00:15:35   And they're like "When is Steve gonna get this?" And he said "He'll get it when it's fucking ready."

00:15:40   And Steve like sticks his head around the corner, like "Okay."

00:15:45   There were so many good stories that those guys had. That was a great one. I kind of feel like,

00:15:52   number one, you could feel the flop sweat of that moment, right? But I also feel like Steve Jobs was

00:15:58   the sort of guy who wasn't petty enough to take, you know, like he would see humor in that.

00:16:03   Yeah, I would think so completely. I mean, I think a lot of people think that that person would get

00:16:07   fired immediately. But right. And that's not that's not like he's like maybe George Steinbrenner

00:16:11   would do that. Right. That's the difference between Steve Jobs is tyranny and Steinbrenner.

00:16:17   It's like Jobs's was mostly rational. And as long as you're still getting the work done, you know,

00:16:21   you know and you know if he if he didn't get the thing in like the next 20 minutes then he would

00:16:25   have gotten fired yeah uh and then afterwards after those three fellows uh spoke with mark off

00:16:31   uh scott forestall was up for about an hour by himself uh so combination it was i loved it i

00:16:40   was really it was if you haven't watched this thing the whole two hours i i swear i've got this

00:16:45   link i'll put it in the show notes i'll bet most of you who are listening to me right now have

00:16:48   have watched it because it seems like if if you weren't anxious to watch that, I don't know why

00:16:54   you listen to my show. Like I can't imagine the what's outside the Venn diagram of people who

00:17:00   listen to the talk show and people who might want to watch Scott Forstall's first public appearance

00:17:06   since he was ousted from the company five years ago. And if you can get the audio, you can just,

00:17:10   I mean, the audio is fine. Yeah. You don't have to watch it. I mean, like some people don't have

00:17:13   time to sit down and necessarily watch it two hour. That is absolutely correct. You could treat

00:17:17   treat it as a podcast and it would work just fine.

00:17:20   For example, I will, along the same lines,

00:17:24   there's tens of thousands of people

00:17:26   who listen to the audio version of my live show

00:17:31   as opposed to watching the video.

00:17:33   Or I guess I don't know how many people listen

00:17:35   because I just get download numbers

00:17:37   and maybe that's inflated because people watch the video

00:17:41   and then their podcast player downloaded it.

00:17:44   So I don't know.

00:17:45   But I suspect that there are tens of thousands of people

00:17:47   to listen to the audio version.

00:17:49   (laughing)

00:17:50   - I gotta watch for Craig's hair.

00:17:52   (laughing)

00:17:55   - It's even better because he did that thing where he ran

00:17:57   and it's hair just blowing in the wind.

00:17:59   (laughing)

00:18:01   And it just always goes right back into place.

00:18:03   It's--

00:18:04   - It's very strange.

00:18:05   - Like that's the thing, you know,

00:18:07   everybody makes jokes about it, you know,

00:18:09   it's the Hair Force One or whatever his username is

00:18:13   in the demos and stuff like that.

00:18:15   But the thing that's most amazing about it

00:18:16   It isn't that he has nice looking hair, which he does,

00:18:19   but it's that it's seemingly, it combs itself somehow.

00:18:24   - Self-sustaining.

00:18:25   - Yeah, like it styles itself, and like he can get nervous

00:18:28   and like run his fingers through it, and you think,

00:18:31   oh man, you're messing up your hair, and then he lets go,

00:18:33   and it just goes right back into place.

00:18:36   It's like when Homer Simpson shaves his beard,

00:18:38   and the stubble just pops right back out.

00:18:40   Anyway, this was fantastic.

00:18:44   I don't even know where to start,

00:18:45   Except that I will say briefly, and somebody asked me,

00:18:49   I guess this is why I have a podcast,

00:18:50   is it's easier for me to talk about this,

00:18:52   shoot the shit with you,

00:18:53   than to write an article about it.

00:18:55   A couple people are like, "Hey, you're gonna write

00:18:58   "a big article about Forstall's appearance."

00:18:59   And I don't have, there's nothing in my mind

00:19:02   that needs to be said.

00:19:04   I feel like the interview speaks for itself.

00:19:06   And I just have meta commentary about it.

00:19:09   - Right.

00:19:10   We can retell the stories that they told.

00:19:13   - Yeah, we should distill all the stories.

00:19:15   My favorite.

00:19:15   The only thing that I thought was sort of weird was--

00:19:17   you talked about telling stories at a turn--

00:19:21   was that Forrestal kind of made Steve

00:19:23   sound like an idiot over the rocker.

00:19:26   Like, he just heard the name and thought, oh, the rocker,

00:19:29   it must be the same as the razor.

00:19:30   So it's going to be a nice little phone,

00:19:32   and we should get our music on it.

00:19:36   I think that that's kind of telling now,

00:19:38   and I think it's exactly what happened.

00:19:39   Which may be true.

00:19:41   Right.

00:19:41   Because there was a bit, too--

00:19:43   I mean, we'll get to it.

00:19:44   there's also along these same lines of the 10-year anniversary of the iPhone is

00:19:47   the the the book that came out this week I have a copy of the book I'm taking it

00:19:53   with me on a vacation starting soon and I plan to read it I look forward to it

00:19:57   but what's it called the one device by Brian merchant but there was a long

00:20:02   excerpt that ran in the verge that had some bits about the rocker from people

00:20:07   who were on the team and it sounds like that's you know I've said it it's ever

00:20:11   since the thing came out. I remember, you know, the very day that it was announced on stage,

00:20:18   I pretty sure I blogged on during fireball like it looked to me like jobs wanted to throw the

00:20:23   thing across the stage like because like the demo didn't even work. It was like it was supposed to

00:20:27   ring or something. You're supposed to get a phone call, you know, get a phone call while you're

00:20:30   playing music and show how it doesn't interrupt you or whatever. And it was it didn't work. And

00:20:35   I really thought he thought about just saying, you know what, screw it. We're not doing this.

00:20:40   But then in the book they said, they even said that Jobs' obvious disdain for the product on

00:20:45   stage angered the people from Singular, or maybe Motorola. The Singular people were like,

00:20:52   because it is funny though. You can look at it and laugh, but the other thing that came out of it was

00:20:58   that that rocker deal shepherded by Motorola, with Motorola who had all this experience dealing with

00:21:06   with carriers, shepherded Steve Jobs and whoever else,

00:21:11   probably Eddie Q, who's always like a negotiating partner

00:21:15   with Jobs, shepherded them through meeting the executives

00:21:20   from the carriers and stuff like that.

00:21:21   And it was, Jobs was, it sounds like he was already thinking

00:21:26   we're gonna do a phone, I'll just use this as a moment

00:21:33   to steal their expertise and relationships.

00:21:35   So this probably would have, when do you think that that project started?

00:21:43   Because it came out like this announced sometime in the summer of 2005?

00:21:48   Yeah, so I do, I don't know if the one device has a timeline.

00:21:54   I would like to see a timeline laid out of all of this stuff.

00:21:58   So it looks like they, because those three guys were talking, were mostly talking about 2005 when they started.

00:22:04   and things that already happened before that.

00:22:07   - So I would guess the rocker thing happened

00:22:08   in like 2004 or something.

00:22:10   - Yeah, they maybe started talking about it in 2004

00:22:12   or something like that, so they probably were doing both

00:22:14   at the same time.

00:22:15   - Yeah, which is funny because the iPod still had

00:22:19   a couple years left in it, but it just shows how Apple

00:22:23   was already simultaneously keep making the iPod

00:22:27   better and better, and its best sales years

00:22:29   were still ahead of it, but already had the proper

00:22:33   paranoia thinking like if cell phones got good enough, they would they would eat the iPod and they were cracked I

00:22:40   As an aside I just

00:22:47   wanted to say in terms of it well, not really an aside, but I feel like

00:22:51   Forstall really touched on this in in his talk with Markov for Markov asked him if he was worried

00:22:59   you know, did he know it was gonna be as big a deal as it would be?

00:23:03   And I think Forstall more or less said, "Yeah, I knew it because I could just see how good it was.

00:23:07   I knew that this was it."

00:23:10   And that all the other little issues like pricing and carrier support would work itself out over time,

00:23:16   but that this was so clearly the future of computing, and it was so good.

00:23:21   And he brought up this great analogy or criticism where like reviewers would come out and say like,

00:23:28   And I remember this. I remember this being like a thing like not just like one one publicized review

00:23:34   but it was like the way people reviewed phones back then was like

00:23:37   Wait a minute. This is pretty and it is you know, there's obviously, you know, I'll insert your

00:23:43   tooth out circa 2007 Apple's Apple cares about design

00:23:48   But nobody else does you know and look what it's got him in the PC market snark here

00:23:53   But they would say like look I open up my blackberry and I can go from off to sending an email in three taps and

00:24:01   On the iPhone. It's seven taps and a scroll, you know, this is way inefficient

00:24:06   This is you know, this isn't a good UI and it's you know

00:24:09   Here's how many taps it takes to play a song and stuff like that and forced

00:24:13   I was like that's you know

00:24:14   That's the most idiotic way to look at this ever like the reason it was a great design is people could actually understand it

00:24:20   And he's so true right like the left to right

00:24:23   Navigation and the way that they animated and that screens didn't you didn't tap a thing and something just popped on the screen it

00:24:30   Moved onto the screen and gave you a sense of spatiality

00:24:33   Is that a word?

00:24:35   Yeah, it is now I should ask sir. Kusa spatial miss

00:24:39   I don't think spatiality is a word. Well, it is now

00:24:43   It wasn't MDS until just now

00:24:46   Somebody quick put it on dictionary

00:24:50   - Oh, wait, spatiality.

00:24:51   - Is it really?

00:24:52   - Here it is, relating to space, spatiality.

00:24:56   Okay, so it's listed under the definition for spatial, yeah.

00:24:59   - Did I pronounce it right?

00:25:00   - It's a noun, it is a noun, spatiality.

00:25:02   - Yeah.

00:25:03   - It sounds like you're mispronouncing special, specialty.

00:25:08   - The thing that, no, I had to,

00:25:12   for reasons, it is, it is just,

00:25:16   did I say I have to, we have to do this show quickly?

00:25:20   (laughing)

00:25:21   You implied it, I didn't know for sure.

00:25:23   - We had a package delivered, and we moved recently,

00:25:28   and the package, and I'm not gonna say who ordered it,

00:25:31   except that it wasn't me.

00:25:33   (laughing)

00:25:34   And Jonas doesn't order anything.

00:25:36   It was sent to our old house instead of the new house,

00:25:41   and it needed to, ideally would have been in our hands

00:25:48   before this coming weekend.

00:25:50   And so,

00:25:51   we rented the old house and the landlord had the package,

00:26:00   one of two shipments.

00:26:01   It was broken up into two shipments.

00:26:03   And the one shipment had one item in it

00:26:05   and the other one had like 10.

00:26:07   Well, guess which one was already there?

00:26:08   It was the one with one.

00:26:10   But I did pick that up.

00:26:12   And the UPS guy had left a sticker on the door

00:26:15   that said, here, try jute.

00:26:18   sorry, you know, we'll come back tomorrow.

00:26:20   And so using the tracking number on that,

00:26:23   instead of having it go to the old address again,

00:26:26   the next day, you can't change it to a new address though.

00:26:29   I think it's like a security thing.

00:26:31   When you have to send it to the depot or something.

00:26:33   You can send it to a pickup place.

00:26:35   And that way they can check your ID.

00:26:39   It makes total sense.

00:26:40   So I did that and I had a whole bunch of choices

00:26:45   to choose from that are nearby our house.

00:26:47   but a lot of them are just like little,

00:26:49   I don't know, like cell phone stores.

00:26:52   It's surprising which businesses are UPS access points.

00:26:56   That's what they call them.

00:26:57   So I chose the UPS store, 'cause you would think,

00:27:01   well, that's one that's gonna be reliable, right?

00:27:04   And it's a couple of blocks further away.

00:27:05   It's actually, it's not that close

00:27:08   to our house at all, actually.

00:27:09   But it's located in the ground floor of a big skyscraper,

00:27:14   like one of the biggest skyscrapers

00:27:16   Center City Philadelphia.

00:27:18   Magnificent building.

00:27:20   So I go in there, and of course, the package isn't there.

00:27:23   Even though the UPS app says it was delivered,

00:27:26   and they even tell me the name of the employee at the UPS

00:27:28   store who signed for it, it's not there.

00:27:32   It's not there.

00:27:33   They agree it's not there.

00:27:36   And so I ended up-- I had to call.

00:27:37   You'd think that maybe I could just deal with somebody there,

00:27:40   but it turns out a UPS store isn't really UPS.

00:27:44   So are they, yeah, they still like,

00:27:46   cause they used to be mailboxes, et cetera, right?

00:27:48   - Yeah, and apparently that's sort of how it,

00:27:51   that's exactly how it, it might as well just be, right.

00:27:54   I had to call the actual UPS and deal with them.

00:27:58   And I will say that they dealt with it fine.

00:28:00   And they called the retailer that we bought this stuff from

00:28:04   to tell them, you know, this guy definitely is not scamming.

00:28:07   You know, this package was somehow lost.

00:28:09   We got a full refund, blah, blah, blah.

00:28:10   But anyway, long story short,

00:28:13   I'm on my phone on hold in the lobby of this skyscraper at 5.30 in the afternoon yesterday.

00:28:22   And this building also has an entrance, an escalator that goes down to the commuter train

00:28:29   station which is about a block away.

00:28:32   So it's a lot of people leaving work from this building who obviously work there and

00:28:35   a lot of other people who are nearby buildings are streaming through the lobby to get to

00:28:39   the escalator to go down.

00:28:41   So while I was on hold for a very long time,

00:28:44   people watched, and I just watched how many people

00:28:47   are actually using their phone,

00:28:50   and can I tell if it's an iPhone or not?

00:28:53   And it's absolutely staggering if you just watch people.

00:28:57   I was on hold for like half an hour,

00:28:58   and I didn't have a clicker,

00:29:00   so I can't mathematically say it,

00:29:02   but I would estimate that over half of the people

00:29:05   were on their phone, either looking at it and texting,

00:29:09   or at the very least had headphones,

00:29:10   which I knew were connected to a phone

00:29:13   and were listening to something.

00:29:14   And most of the people who weren't were in conversation

00:29:19   with a colleague or friend or something.

00:29:22   Almost every single person who was just solo,

00:29:25   either leaving the building or going to the train station

00:29:28   was on their phone.

00:29:30   It's absolutely, you know, just to commemorate

00:29:33   this 10 year anniversary of the iPhone,

00:29:34   if you just sit there and think about,

00:29:37   it really looks like something out of science fiction

00:29:39   2006. Yeah, there's a… I mean, I've seen that happen. I mean, the thing that I watch is people

00:29:47   in cars, which drives me absolutely berserk. I mean, when I'm sitting at a stoplight and I

00:29:53   watch the people who are driving by on the perpendicular street, I watch and see how many

00:29:59   of them are looking at their phones. It's an insane amount of people. That really drives me.

00:30:04   Not to tell. It drives me absolutely berserk. And I really do try to be religious about it while

00:30:08   while I'm driving.

00:30:09   And I make jokes on this show about being a terrible driver

00:30:13   and driving too fast.

00:30:13   And I do like to drive fast.

00:30:15   But no jokes aside, I really, really, really

00:30:18   do not use the phone, especially in the city.

00:30:19   Yeah.

00:30:20   I don't even like using my watch that much.

00:30:22   I mean, I'll often talk to Siri on the watch.

00:30:25   But I mean, I don't even like looking at my text message

00:30:30   or anything like that, because I'm not

00:30:32   watching the freaking road.

00:30:33   No, I don't know.

00:30:34   I don't understand.

00:30:36   I'm terrified of cars.

00:30:38   I really am.

00:30:38   I don't have a phobia because I ride in them, but I feel like I'm on the spectrum

00:30:46   of maybe being afraid to get in a car.

00:30:50   But the problem isn't even so much that I want to get in a car, it's that I'm

00:30:53   afraid of another car getting me.

00:30:55   That can happen as a pedestrian in the city.

00:30:58   But anyway.

00:30:59   The other thing I was going to say is that effect, I think, had already hit people who

00:31:04   had Blackberries before the iPhone came out.

00:31:07   And a lot of those people, I mean, most of those people were like doing,

00:31:09   we're business people doing business, um, texting or, you know, or whatever,

00:31:13   whoever they were texting, you know,

00:31:15   like maybe they're just joking around with like their work friends or something

00:31:17   like that. They were texting back and forth, um, constantly. Um,

00:31:20   I remember when I, cause I used to work in an office,

00:31:22   I remember going into the men's room and there was a guy there with his

00:31:26   Blackberry in his hand, standing at the urinal,

00:31:29   two handed typing on the black bar. Oh man.

00:31:35   Yeah, right, maybe.

00:31:37   And especially in the sort of white collar office building

00:31:42   where I was, there might have been that effect

00:31:43   even before the iPhone.

00:31:45   But--

00:31:45   Yeah, maybe.

00:31:46   So it's not-- and I bet a lot of--

00:31:48   Probably not to this degree that it is now.

00:31:50   And I'll bet a lot of the headphone wearers

00:31:51   would have had iPods.

00:31:54   So the larger trend is computing devices,

00:31:57   little pocket-sized computing devices in general.

00:31:59   But as of 2017, they're all phones.

00:32:02   Yeah.

00:32:04   And they're all roughly similar phones.

00:32:06   They're all rectangles with glass faces

00:32:11   that have an interface that takes up the whole thing.

00:32:14   And I felt like Forstall's interview in particular

00:32:17   really captured that.

00:32:19   The other guys, too, but they were asked details

00:32:21   that were questions that were a little bit more

00:32:24   specific to anecdotes.

00:32:25   And Forstall's was more bigger picture.

00:32:28   And it does--

00:32:29   One of the things that he said that stuck out to me

00:32:31   never felt like work to use the iPhone. Because he was talking about how, you know, he would just,

00:32:37   I mean, like, and I, you know, felt that when I, when I got it, I mean, I think that I always think

00:32:42   back and think that was this is like the one thing like, if I could go back in time and show like,

00:32:45   13 year old me, something from the future, like an iPhone would be probably my first,

00:32:51   would that without a question, my first choice? Yeah, I've used the analogy of feeling like

00:32:57   like you're going uphill versus downhill.

00:33:00   And I like the metaphor, but it's hard

00:33:05   because uphill is bad and downhill is good in my metaphor.

00:33:11   But also saying something's going downhill

00:33:15   generally is a bad connotation.

00:33:17   But what I just mean is it feel like you're fighting gravity

00:33:20   or is gravity helping you?

00:33:21   Like when you're riding a bike

00:33:22   and it's just a gentle downhill,

00:33:25   like a five degree downhill thing,

00:33:26   It feels like the easiest thing in the goddamn world.

00:33:29   And riding your bike up a hill can somehow feel like,

00:33:31   why do I own a bicycle?

00:33:33   - Someday I'll tell you the story about my brothers

00:33:35   trying to teach me to ride a bike.

00:33:36   (laughing)

00:33:38   It's actually, it's pretty quick.

00:33:39   They pushed me down a hill.

00:33:40   (laughing)

00:33:42   So still not appropriate to certain audiences.

00:33:47   - And that's exactly what Forrestal was getting at.

00:33:52   And I think, you know, maybe it feels like work

00:33:53   is actually a better way to put it.

00:33:55   you know, that it just felt like checking your email didn't feel like you're doing a thing.

00:33:58   There's a few things that still feel like work to me on an iPhone.

00:34:01   Like if I have to change something on the server during Fireball,

00:34:07   like and that happens almost, I mean, number one, my site doesn't change very often.

00:34:11   So it's that's pretty rare.

00:34:13   But if just to say there's like a text like to edit the schedule for sponsorships is I don't have like a CMS for that.

00:34:21   it's a text file on the server.

00:34:23   And if I have like a typo in it or something like that,

00:34:26   and I'm on the phone, that feels like work.

00:34:28   'Cause it's like, and I use the same app.

00:34:31   I use just, you know, the apps from Panic.

00:34:35   I guess on the phone I would use Coda

00:34:38   and I'd open up the server and tap, tap into the folders

00:34:41   and open it up.

00:34:43   And it just feels like work though,

00:34:44   even though it's a very nice app

00:34:45   and I can't imagine how it would be better

00:34:47   on a four inch display.

00:34:48   - It's just the screen size, right?

00:34:50   It's the screen size combined with the fact that on my Mac it's just like,

00:34:55   you know, command space, TRA return, double click,

00:34:59   I'm in and it just is easier to drill down a file system and stuff like that.

00:35:04   But it, you know, for the most part,

00:35:09   but something like checking to see an email message or something like that,

00:35:12   doesn't feel like work on the iPhone at all.

00:35:13   You know, I mean, you know me, I, I tend to, uh,

00:35:18   obsess over people who write lousy Apple analysis.

00:35:22   And so I go to all these like really crappy sites a lot.

00:35:27   I mean, so I happen, you know,

00:35:28   and I go to your site obviously too,

00:35:30   but like I noticed today that I loaded,

00:35:33   your site was already loaded in a tab.

00:35:36   And so I hit refresh to make sure I was getting the latest.

00:35:39   And then, and I, maybe I looked away for a second,

00:35:42   but I came back and I looked,

00:35:43   and it was just sitting there.

00:35:44   And so I hit refresh again,

00:35:45   'cause I thought there's no way it refreshed

00:35:47   in that amount of time,

00:35:48   because I'm just used to these things like Forbes and stuff

00:35:51   where it's like, oh, you wanna hit refresh?

00:35:53   Well, it's gonna take like five minutes to load this page.

00:35:56   - My site is pretty fast.

00:35:59   - It is very fast.

00:36:00   - I noticed the same thing the other day.

00:36:03   I went on a rant on Daring Fireball

00:36:05   about the stupid JavaScript dick bars

00:36:10   that they put up over the sites.

00:36:15   And I just wrote offhand, you know,

00:36:17   - Not really offhandedly, but I do kind of mean it.

00:36:20   I think that we'd have been better off

00:36:21   if they'd never added JavaScript to web browsers.

00:36:24   I mean, if you remember, the original,

00:36:26   it was a document type thing.

00:36:28   You know, and in the same way that like,

00:36:30   when I send you an email,

00:36:31   code doesn't run on your device.

00:36:35   I'm sending you bits and they are displayed.

00:36:38   And the web was just like any other internet thing

00:36:41   at the time where you'd send text to somebody

00:36:44   or you'd get text from a server

00:36:46   and it would be displayed somehow.

00:36:48   The idea of adding scripting on the client side

00:36:53   struck me as a bad idea immediately.

00:36:55   And yes, it enabled all sorts of amazing things,

00:36:58   and there's all sorts of web apps

00:37:00   and things that are done in JavaScript

00:37:02   that are useful and beautiful and cool,

00:37:05   but there's so many awful things that people do with it.

00:37:08   And you're just opening the door

00:37:10   to the possibility of bad things happening,

00:37:13   whereas if there's no executable scripting at all,

00:37:15   then nothing can happen.

00:37:17   - Yeah, I think you actually weren't talking

00:37:18   about JavaScript.

00:37:19   I think you were talking about the other thing

00:37:20   that's scraping the--

00:37:22   - Oh, what was that?

00:37:24   - The names and like if you type something in,

00:37:26   even if you don't hit submit,

00:37:27   it's scraping your information. - Oh my God,

00:37:28   how awful is that?

00:37:29   Oh, how awful is that? - Unbelievable.

00:37:31   - So if you didn't see it on Daring Fireball,

00:37:33   there's Gizmodo had an expose where they found

00:37:36   like hundreds of companies using this company's service.

00:37:39   The scumbag company has--

00:37:41   - NaviStone.

00:37:42   - NaviStone, gee how many Christmas.

00:37:44   they've got this JavaScript that you go to a form

00:37:47   and as soon as you type anything in a field,

00:37:50   it like phones home with the data.

00:37:52   So like if you've ever idly like,

00:37:55   maybe I'll buy this, maybe I won't,

00:37:56   or maybe I'll sign up for this thing,

00:37:58   but you kinda, you put your email in,

00:38:00   but you don't hit submit.

00:38:01   And there's a big button that says submit

00:38:03   and you think like, well,

00:38:04   my email won't be sent to them until I hit submit.

00:38:07   Nope.

00:38:08   Soon as you type the letter J, there it is.

00:38:12   And people do, and I've got an email from readers too,

00:38:15   and they've said that they've had this happen

00:38:17   where they were like at a very specific site,

00:38:18   like somebody was at like a site that sells like,

00:38:22   I don't know, Japanese tea, something very specific,

00:38:24   and did that, entered some information in a form,

00:38:27   and then thought the better, thought,

00:38:29   you know what, I don't wanna get this.

00:38:30   And three days later, they got mail to their house,

00:38:33   like actual junk mail from the Japanese tea company.

00:38:37   - Yeah, and that's the thing,

00:38:38   that they claim to be able to take that information

00:38:40   and just like find your address, like find where you're living.

00:38:43   And I guess just from the email.

00:38:46   Yeah, some database of looking up email addresses

00:38:50   and associating with mailing addresses.

00:38:52   So anyway, yeah, I mean, and that's

00:38:54   a better example of why there should not be JavaScript,

00:38:57   or why you might not want JavaScript executing just

00:39:01   by loading a page, right?

00:39:02   If there's no scripting, all you're getting is a display,

00:39:05   some information display, text and video or images

00:39:09   or something like that.

00:39:10   and then nothing goes back to them until you click something.

00:39:14   Anyway, what I did is I thought, you know what?

00:39:18   I haven't tried for a while.

00:39:19   And I have one blocker.

00:39:21   I have a content blocker.

00:39:22   And I have some ads blocked and trackers blocked

00:39:28   and stuff like that.

00:39:28   And it does seem to speed things up.

00:39:30   But I thought, you know what?

00:39:31   I haven't tried in a long time is

00:39:32   what happens if you just turned JavaScript off?

00:39:34   Because that's a preference in Safari.

00:39:36   You can just say, I don't want any JavaScript at all.

00:39:39   And I did that.

00:39:40   And I had the same experience with,

00:39:42   it was still Gizmodo's site.

00:39:43   It loaded so fast that I thought--

00:39:46   - That's gotta be wrong.

00:39:47   - And I was like, oh my God,

00:39:48   their site is so instantaneously fast.

00:39:50   When you turn off JavaScript,

00:39:51   it's all JavaScript that makes it take six seconds

00:39:54   to load Gizmodo.

00:39:56   It's absolutely crazy that people

00:39:59   just recklessly add all that.

00:40:00   Every site in the internet could be fast

00:40:02   by today's standards,

00:40:03   if they didn't have all that crap.

00:40:08   yet here we are.

00:40:09   - Doing a lot of complaining

00:40:11   about the way things are right now.

00:40:12   - My very favorite story that Forstall told,

00:40:15   and I don't mind stealing it

00:40:16   because it's so goddamn funny,

00:40:18   is that he said every time he went to Cafe Max

00:40:21   with Steve Jobs, Jobs would insist on paying.

00:40:25   Even if Forstall was getting something

00:40:27   that took a long time,

00:40:29   like he's waiting for a pizza to get baked

00:40:31   and Steve's already got his salad or whatever he had,

00:40:34   and he's like, "Just go, you don't have to wait for me, go."

00:40:36   And every time, jobs would wait at the cashier,

00:40:39   and that they had a system.

00:40:40   I guess they still have the system,

00:40:43   but you just use your employee badge,

00:40:46   and it just docks the food from your paycheck.

00:40:49   I don't know if people know this or not,

00:40:50   'cause so many places in the Valley offer free food

00:40:52   to their employees, but Apple does not offer free food.

00:40:55   It's like, how do you get $200 billion in the bank?

00:40:59   Well, you don't give them free food.

00:41:01   You charge, yeah, right, right.

00:41:03   But eventually, he said, "Steve, you gotta stop doing this.

00:41:05   I can pay for my own food.

00:41:06   And he goes, "No, you don't understand.

00:41:08   This gets docked out of your paycheck."

00:41:10   Well, I only get paid a dollar a year.

00:41:13   I don't know where this money's coming from.

00:41:18   And Horstal starts laughing.

00:41:19   He says he's a billionaire and he's scamming the company.

00:41:24   And he said, "Job says multi-billionaire."

00:41:26   Yeah.

00:41:27   That was it.

00:41:29   I think that was a different anecdote.

00:41:31   That was the thing where he's telling people that you're pricing.

00:41:34   telling Jobs you're pricing this too high. Right. Like people like you know I have friends who can't

00:41:37   afford this thing and he's like you you you you think it's funny because you're a billionaire and

00:41:42   he says I'm a multi-billionaire. Yeah I just completed two stories anyway the whole thing

00:41:47   was chock full of good stories I thought John Markoff did a pretty good job hosting it keeping

00:41:53   it going boy I felt like that could have gone on forever like I would like to see Forstall for three

00:41:57   hours. It was really good. It was very good. I felt like I found the first three guys a little

00:42:06   more, I don't know if it was relaxed or what it was. He felt like, I mean, he mentioned that he

00:42:10   happened to mention that he was like, he was really into acting because you've talked about

00:42:14   all these experiences that he's had since leaving Apple and on Broadway. And he seemed like he was

00:42:20   acting a little. Yeah. The other guys just seemed more natural, like they were just shooting the

00:42:25   breeze. But the stories were still great and it's certainly worth two hours or a good time

00:42:33   to watch the whole thing, I think.

00:42:34   Yeah. It was actually asked, I guess there were questions from the audience, which were

00:42:40   done the right way, by the way. The right way to do questions from the audience or from

00:42:45   the internet is to have them written on cards and given to...

00:42:49   Instead of people standing up.

00:42:51   - Right, never ever ever do it with people standing up

00:42:54   because somebody will inevitably,

00:42:57   like it's like flies drawn to a light bulb.

00:43:00   People who can't get a good question out of their mouth

00:43:05   but just keep running will immediately go to the microphone.

00:43:09   But one of the questions from the audience was

00:43:12   asking if Forrestal was wearing the same shirt

00:43:17   that he wore at the 2012 WWDC

00:43:19   somebody looked it up and posted it to Twitter it was it is the same shirt we

00:43:25   go with what works right boy it did seem first it did not seem like Scott

00:43:30   Forstall's been gone for five years hey he looks great you know he doesn't look

00:43:34   like he's a he looks exactly the eye looks exactly it looks like he's been

00:43:36   like an a cryogenic chamber I don't know about you and part of it is is going

00:43:43   gray over the last few years but man I mean that's like I look back at pictures

00:43:47   from five years ago and I think holy hell I'm really going to hell like oh

00:43:53   yeah this is getting old yeah you know somebody I have a picture but there's a

00:43:58   picture we've got two babies in the family at the moment and I like to hold

00:44:04   babies I do I really do I love babies and I like it when when the family get

00:44:10   together if there's two babies at the same time I like to hold two babies at

00:44:13   same. I do. So Amy took a picture of me with two babies a couple of weekends ago at a family

00:44:19   birthday event and I love the picture because I look unlike almost all the time. I am in fact

00:44:28   genuinely happy at that moment and you can see it but I was like, "Oh my god, look at all those

00:44:32   lines around my eyes. Jesus." I don't know what he's doing but... I don't like holding babies.

00:44:38   Oh, I love holding babies. I never liked holding babies. And I was like, when we decided to adopt,

00:44:43   I was like, good. Cause then, you know, like he's going to be one. I won't have to carry this tight.

00:44:48   We have this, we have these friends. Oh my God. They had, they had a, they had a kid like a number

00:44:53   of years before we adopted Hank and this guy would flip the baby in the air. Yeah. That's what I do.

00:44:59   Well, I don't do that with other babies, but I did it with Jonas. Oh my God. Yeah. Oh my God. I

00:45:04   I would just I would it freaked me out. I had to leave

00:45:07   I mean, I just like I would just like go into another room. I could not bear it. Oh

00:45:11   I like throwing you were gonna drop this kid

00:45:14   I am NOT gonna be standing here when this kid suffers brain damage

00:45:19   Guess I do like throwing a baby in the air

00:45:24   But I must admit that they're probably as sure-handed as I feel I am

00:45:28   I'm I guess the odds of me dropping a baby do increase slightly versus not throwing yet in there

00:45:33   Yeah, I think you should. I think you and also you're getting older. So you should not be

00:45:39   throwing babies anymore. Eyesight isn't what it used to be there. Your depth perception.

00:45:45   Unless you're standing over a ball pit. Yeah. Or yeah, something like that.

00:45:53   But pool maybe. Yeah. I thought it was uncanny how it seemed like for stall had only hadn't even left

00:46:02   like both the fact that he was wearing the same shirt that doesn't look that aged and it just

00:46:08   felt you know it's been five years since we've heard him on stage at an event and it did not

00:46:13   feel like five years ago it felt like you know like he was just at WWDC last week.

00:46:18   It's and the other thing that was interesting about that whole thing was how many apparently

00:46:23   how many other executives or former executives or whatever were just people who worked on the

00:46:28   the phone were in the audience. And they kept pointing, like they all kept pointing people

00:46:33   out. And so I think that helped make it sort of relaxed.

00:46:38   Yeah, yeah, I think so too. I think I know for a fact, Matthew Panzorino was there and

00:46:46   he told me he saw Bertrand Cerlet was in the audience. No surprise. I know he, you know,

00:46:54   He's been rather quiet since leaving Apple as well.

00:46:57   I just, Apple people, you know,

00:47:02   like how do you fit in at a company

00:47:05   where employees are expected to keep their mouth shut

00:47:07   is you're naturally the sort of person

00:47:08   who keeps your mouth shut.

00:47:10   So it's not a surprise that you haven't heard

00:47:11   from a lot of these people.

00:47:12   But I feel like Bertrand's role in the iPhone is sort of,

00:47:15   and again, I haven't read the book.

00:47:18   So maybe in that, the new book,

00:47:20   maybe there's a big chunk about Bertrand,

00:47:22   but at an engineering level,

00:47:26   from what I've heard from multiple people,

00:47:29   like at that point where there was this,

00:47:31   well, do we base it off a stripped down version

00:47:34   of Mac OS X and the next libraries and everything,

00:47:39   or do we build a thing from the ground up on Linux,

00:47:42   like more like a gadget,

00:47:44   which was the Tony Fadell side of the thing.

00:47:46   And Forstall obviously, famously led the,

00:47:52   what would become iOS, you know, led that team, but that at a actually like running

00:47:58   the engineering and stuff like that Bertrand was a huge part of that as well.

00:48:01   And and was a big supporter of the fight in terms of yes, I know it seems hard to believe

00:48:06   now that this OS that doesn't really boot that fast on Intel PC hardware will be able

00:48:15   to boot in a reasonable amount of time on a friggin cell phone.

00:48:20   Yeah, that was an interesting story. They talked about how they went down and processors,

00:48:26   they just kept like they started on a G5 and they got it to work and then they go down to G4 tower

00:48:30   and then he said eventually they were like down on a like a tangerine iMac or iBook.

00:48:36   Right, right, like they found one in a closet and just kept trying to make it run fast on

00:48:41   crappier and crappier hardware. I wondered about that because like one of the images that came out

00:48:47   like could they all these images come out because of the um the legal stuff but one of the images

00:48:51   that came out was when i think when they were early on working on the um just uh just the

00:48:57   tablet project before it became the phone project and there was like it was like a g3 tower it was

00:49:01   like a like a blue and white g3 tower in the room if i remember correctly and i was like why

00:49:07   i mean like why would you be using that in 2003 or 4 even i just guess that explains it

00:49:16   It's one of those things though that in 10 years it's hard to overstate just how underpowered

00:49:28   the ARM processor was in that original iPhone.

00:49:32   I mean they show the hockey puck graph, you know the hockey stick graph of GPU performance

00:49:38   over time.

00:49:39   They show it every year when they come out with new iPads and iPhones because the graph

00:49:43   is still looking, it's still going up at a very sharp peak. But it's like, you have to remember,

00:49:49   we were back there at the origin of that graph, and we loved it, right? We absolutely loved that

00:49:55   bone. And that was with, you know, computing performance, that was the butt end of a joke

00:50:00   in their slides today. You know, and, and on the other hand, you've got all these benchmarks

00:50:05   showing that the new iPad Pro is significantly faster and just about any benchmark you can

00:50:11   can imagine than the MacBook with the Intel processor.

00:50:15   - Yeah.

00:50:16   - But that was a huge problem back then, obviously.

00:50:18   I mean, it was probably these, of all problems,

00:50:20   it was probably the single biggest one.

00:50:22   You got the sense from them that it was just like,

00:50:26   it seemed like an impossible task to put.

00:50:28   And that's why the announcement was so amazing,

00:50:31   'cause it just seemed like, well, there's no way

00:50:32   that they could make Mac OS X run on a phone, right?

00:50:36   - Yeah. - But he was like,

00:50:36   "Right, right?"

00:50:38   And we're like, "It looks like they did it."

00:50:40   And it's a very unexpected, I mean, not in a way that you, that I thought of certainly

00:50:49   before it was announced.

00:50:51   No.

00:50:53   It sounds like in a book, it's, again, I only read the Verge excerpt, but you mean in terms

00:50:58   of like coming up with a user interface for it?

00:51:00   Yeah.

00:51:01   Yeah.

00:51:02   It sounds like the book really has some great tidbits from those guys that participated.

00:51:09   Greg Christie was the leader of what was then

00:51:11   Apple's human interface group.

00:51:12   And Boz, Orting, I forget the other names,

00:51:17   they all have cool names, like super cool names.

00:51:20   - Yeah, yeah.

00:51:20   - But it was a really small team.

00:51:24   Like that's one thing that I think is different

00:51:26   about Apple then versus Apple today.

00:51:29   Whereas I feel like that there is no,

00:51:31   like it was like a dirty dozen group,

00:51:34   you know what I mean?

00:51:35   It was like Greg Christie and his like 12 handpicked UI guys

00:51:37   who did the whole UI for the original iPhone.

00:51:39   And I don't think there isn't really a team like that anymore

00:51:42   ever since when Johnny Ive took over.

00:51:44   I mean, it really does coincide with Forstahl's Ouster,

00:51:48   but to have one design group under Johnny Ive

00:51:51   that does all design, industrial design, software design,

00:51:54   there is no more like one 10-person team

00:51:57   who could do something like that.

00:51:58   Anything else from that event that stuck out?

00:52:02   I guess it's worth observing that they didn't,

00:52:06   And I'm guessing by gentlemen's agreement that they didn't talk about for stalls

00:52:10   ouster, that it really was focused.

00:52:12   I think. Yeah. And historically, you know, because I

00:52:16   I would I hope to hear that.

00:52:19   I would love to you know, I love to personally be the person to to talk to

00:52:22   forestall about that.

00:52:24   I don't think that's the sort of thing, though, that plays well

00:52:27   in front of a live audience like that.

00:52:29   It would be a fantastic interview, but I think it should either be like

00:52:33   if it were recorded, it would should be like a non-live podcast.

00:52:37   That would be fantastic. Or do it for, you know, record it,

00:52:40   but do it for a written article. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've seen, we've seen,

00:52:44   we've seen where some of the, um, the stuff that's in this book ends up, uh,

00:52:50   getting people in trouble. Uh, yeah, definitely. I have to, you know,

00:52:54   just to go meta for a second, like that does,

00:52:56   it absolutely colors my questioning of, uh,

00:53:00   like Schiller and Federighi two weeks ago at the live talk show is it's it like I guess the one

00:53:06   question that there was even I did you listen to it there was a heckler. It was like I don't know

00:53:14   two-thirds through the show some shithead up in the balcony yells when is Siri gonna get good?

00:53:19   I didn't I couldn't hear what the hell he said I heard him say something something Siri and it and

00:53:26   And I thought, boy, I really hope because that's just two strikes and you're out is my rule for like a heckler.

00:53:32   So I'll ignore it once. Yeah.

00:53:34   And if it was if he had done it again, then I would have had to interrupt the show and ask ask people surrounding him to show him the exit.

00:53:42   Well, make them uncomfortable. I would have said nobody's here to listen to you.

00:53:47   That was the great I've I've filed it away in my memory where I was at a Louis C.K. show.

00:53:52   Either I was at a Louis C.K. show or I was watching one on TV,

00:53:55   recorded and he got heckled and all he did was just stop his act,

00:53:58   wait about two seconds.

00:54:01   And he just said, nobody's here to listen to you, shithead.

00:54:03   And it's like I was like, that is the greatest anti heckler thing ever.

00:54:09   Like you don't even have to be clever.

00:54:10   It doesn't matter what they heckled you with it because it's you don't you know,

00:54:14   you don't have to prove that you're clever enough to be funny

00:54:17   and shutting him down on the fly by responding to whatever it is that he said.

00:54:22   You just say something that is absolutely true and works.

00:54:26   But anyway, right.

00:54:28   But there were people who said, well, then why didn't you drill them about Siri?

00:54:31   And I kind of did like I tried to get at it with my question to them about,

00:54:36   you know, most people in the industry seem to think that, you know,

00:54:40   everybody agrees machine learning is is the big thing for the next decade.

00:54:44   And it's going to affect things large and small.

00:54:47   New areas of technology, existing areas getting better.

00:54:51   But the consensus seems to be that machine learning is best done in the cloud,

00:54:57   perhaps at the expense of personal privacy, and Apple seems as committed as ever

00:55:02   to doing it in a distributed fashion on devices. How confident are you guys in that strategy?

00:55:08   And they both instantly said, "Very." And that gets at it, because obviously part of that is Siri.

00:55:15   So what am I going to say? They're obviously confident in it.

00:55:17   and if I get up there and rant about how bad Siri is,

00:55:21   A, I don't believe that that's true.

00:55:23   I'm actually, among people who write and talk

00:55:26   about these things, I think I'm a little more pro-Siri

00:55:28   versus the competition than most people,

00:55:30   so it's not even my honest opinion,

00:55:32   but even if for the sake of devil's advocate,

00:55:34   I just don't think it's a great question in a live audience

00:55:37   because they're not going to say anything.

00:55:39   There's a certain contingent of people

00:55:42   who want me to belittle them

00:55:43   because they're so upset about Siri's performance

00:55:46   that they want me to make Phil Schiller and Craig Federighi look small.

00:55:51   - Apologize. - Right, apologize or something.

00:55:53   And that's not going to happen. And it wouldn't play well on stage.

00:55:56   But when I've had them on the show and it's not in front of a live audience,

00:56:01   I feel like I ask a very different— it's a different interview style.

00:56:05   Like, you have to play to the audience.

00:56:06   - Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's— yeah, right.

00:56:09   I mean, in a way, it's an entertainment thing.

00:56:11   It becomes more of an entertainment thing when it's in front of an audience.

00:56:14   right and I feel like and you know and everyone's drinking and it's like you know

00:56:18   it really is as somebody who gets up on stage in front of several hundred or a thousand people

00:56:28   once in a while but has done it you know once in a while for going on 10 years it's it's like I'm not

00:56:35   it's not like normal to me it always always feels extremely abnormal I would say for

00:56:43   up to 48 hours in advance and up to 24 hours afterwards.

00:56:49   But it's a lot easier to think that-- when you're up there

00:56:54   and there's people, you cannot not be cognizant of the fact

00:56:58   that you've got an audience to entertain.

00:57:01   And it's weird because, I don't know, 100,000 people

00:57:05   watched the video afterwards.

00:57:07   And there's 1,000 people who were in that theater.

00:57:10   And so in theory, it would make more sense to play to optimize for the home audience.

00:57:18   But you can't.

00:57:19   You can't not do it.

00:57:20   And it's the same reason I think…

00:57:21   Because you'd ruin the whole thing if you tried to do that.

00:57:25   Right.

00:57:26   And it's exactly why the Tonight Show or the Late Night Talk Show has a different vibe

00:57:34   to it than the evening news.

00:57:36   Right?

00:57:37   Like when they're when that, you know, or why the Daily Show had a different vibe than

00:57:42   than the CBS Evening News, even though it was the same thing, a guy reading the news

00:57:46   on camera because there was an audience there.

00:57:50   Totally changes it anyway.

00:57:53   Good thing I'm keeping the show moving.

00:57:55   Take a break and thank our next sponsor.

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00:59:35   It's like just the way they build airports,

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01:00:52   That's the honest to God truth.

01:00:53   I wouldn't say it if it weren't true, Jon.

01:00:55   (laughing)

01:00:57   - I wasn't questioning you.

01:00:59   - I think I said this before.

01:01:00   I travel more than most people probably.

01:01:02   I mean, I travel for work,

01:01:05   travel for vacation with the family and stuff like that.

01:01:08   I've had, up until I got this away thing,

01:01:12   I had the same carry-on suitcase since I can remember.

01:01:15   And I had it for so long that I don't even remember

01:01:19   why I bought it originally because I had it

01:01:21   from before I regularly flew on airplanes.

01:01:24   I don't know.

01:01:25   And having an old busted ass suitcase

01:01:29   with like wheels that don't really turn right

01:01:31   and make noise, it was like the upgrade of a lifetime.

01:01:36   And it's just one of those things where I don't know,

01:01:37   I waste money on so much stuff as you well know.

01:01:40   But it never seemed to me like the suitcase

01:01:42   was still structurally sound and it wasn't ripped,

01:01:46   it was just worn and wheels especially.

01:01:50   And so it never, that never seems like something worth spending, you know,

01:01:53   money on. It's like, well, you know, I don't need it.

01:01:55   And I'll just use this old one. I'll tell you what,

01:01:58   getting a new suitcase was a hell of an upgrade.

01:01:59   I like this. I really liked the sound of that one that has the power in it.

01:02:03   Oh, it's a fantastic feature. It really is. Cause you never get it.

01:02:07   You never get power at the airport. Never. No.

01:02:09   There's always that one guy who's got like eight devices plugged into the two.

01:02:13   Yeah. Oh, that guy. Yeah. That's, that's BS. That's, that's, that's,

01:02:18   That's total crap.

01:02:20   It's just a dick move.

01:02:22   It really is.

01:02:23   It's like taking a four-top for--

01:02:24   you're like a one person.

01:02:26   You take a four-top at a seat yourself restaurant.

01:02:28   Oh, yeah.

01:02:30   Go sit at the bar if you're by yourself, you know what I mean?

01:02:33   All right, what else we got on the agenda?

01:02:37   Anything else?

01:02:38   Anything else from the event?

01:02:41   No, I mean, just another--

01:02:43   I don't want to give away all the anecdotes.

01:02:45   I don't want to.

01:02:45   The jobs anecdotes.

01:02:46   So that was the only other one.

01:02:48   So just watch it and you'll you'll learn all the jobs anecdotes. Yeah

01:02:51   It does make you wonder like what Apple looks like if for stall hadn't left was there a path, you know

01:02:58   Well, yeah, what exactly was the nature of that that rift and the personal dispute? I mean there's reports that

01:03:05   Tim Cook used to have to attend every meeting that was attended. I think it was Johnny and

01:03:12   For stall but it might have involved. I thought it was a big Bob. Yeah

01:03:17   - Yeah, there might have been multiple people

01:03:19   who refused to attend any meeting with Scott Forstall

01:03:23   unless Tim Cook was there.

01:03:25   And as you might imagine,

01:03:27   the company that was making all their money

01:03:31   from iPhones and iPads had a lot of meetings

01:03:34   with Scott Forstall.

01:03:35   But boy, he-- - Yeah, that's it.

01:03:39   You can't keep doing that.

01:03:41   - That there was, I mean, there's just no denying it, though,

01:03:44   that there's an aspect of Scott Forstall

01:03:47   that you can see why he was so in tune with Steve Jobs.

01:03:50   You can see why they had almost a symbiotic relationship,

01:03:54   that there is a certain steveness to his way

01:03:57   of looking at products and design and technology.

01:04:00   I thought it was interesting.

01:04:03   I actually knew this, I think,

01:04:04   but Markov asked something about skeuomorphism,

01:04:09   and Forstall was like,

01:04:10   I'd never even heard of the word skeuomorphism

01:04:12   until after, you know.

01:04:14   - People started blaming him for skeuomorphism.

01:04:18   - Right, it's just like, I just know good design.

01:04:20   And I'm sure that's true.

01:04:22   Skeuomorphism does sound like a word

01:04:25   that was made up by people who don't like what it is.

01:04:28   The name does seem sort of negative.

01:04:32   - Right.

01:04:33   I didn't know what it was

01:04:35   until that whole thing blew up either.

01:04:36   Did you know, I mean, is this something

01:04:37   that you've heard of before? - No, I'd never heard of it

01:04:39   before, and I was never satisfied.

01:04:41   I always, every time I put it on Daring Fireball,

01:04:43   I was always, I still am if I ever comes up again.

01:04:46   It just seems like a void in our vocabulary

01:04:51   to talk about it.

01:04:52   I think it's better to talk about like textures and depth,

01:04:58   rather than flatness.

01:05:00   And even the word flatness is overdone,

01:05:02   but there's no denying that nobody,

01:05:06   you can quibble over what words we use,

01:05:08   but you can't deny that iOS 7 was flattened

01:05:11   compared to iOS 6.

01:05:13   Things that used to look like they were 3D

01:05:15   were now completely 2D.

01:05:16   - Yeah.

01:05:19   - Let's think about this.

01:05:23   How about this story that the outline had?

01:05:25   - On the leaks?

01:05:28   - Yeah, so Apple has been hosting, apparently,

01:05:31   a series of, unsurprisingly,

01:05:35   Apple has a team of investigators to investigate product leaks.

01:05:39   And they're people, you know,

01:05:42   formerly employed by like the FBI and the, I don't know,

01:05:46   CIA or secret service, you know, unsurprisingly.

01:05:50   This kid, well, this came out,

01:05:52   remember when the iPhone four got stolen or appropriated or whatever you want to

01:05:56   call it, picked up in a bar and not returned.

01:05:59   They, this,

01:06:03   I think that came out then that they had these investigators that were working

01:06:06   in house and people were, well, some people at least were kind of like, Whoa,

01:06:09   why is Apple employing these thugs?

01:06:13   It's like, cause they're a huge company and they're not, they're not things.

01:06:18   They're just like, they're looking into, you know,

01:06:21   making sure that other companies don't steal their intellectual property.

01:06:25   Yeah.

01:06:26   It was definitely a little bit more faux outrage in when that phone

01:06:31   was stolen.

01:06:32   at the reaction.

01:06:34   But it's like, if you really look at what they did,

01:06:37   there was no step of the way that seemed inappropriate

01:06:40   to me.

01:06:41   But there's some people who seemingly,

01:06:43   you know, like, seemingly think Apple shouldn't enforce

01:06:46   this at all in the interest of free speech

01:06:49   of their employees, I guess.

01:06:51   You know, that it's oppressive to do anything in response.

01:06:56   It doesn't make any sense.

01:06:57   I don't understand how these people think like that.

01:07:00   I mean, and there's a line in there,

01:07:02   but I forget the name of the guy who does the,

01:07:04   I think it's the guy, right, who does the presentation,

01:07:07   who they name, but he talks about how they're not talking

01:07:12   about whistleblowers.

01:07:14   - Right.

01:07:15   - They're, you know, if Apple is doing something

01:07:17   that's illegal, we want you to go ahead and tell people.

01:07:21   - Or, you know, or if it's like a harassment type thing,

01:07:24   you know, like if you feel like, you know, you've been,

01:07:27   you know, you're not being treated fairly

01:07:28   because of your skin color or your sexual orientation

01:07:32   or whatever and you wanna report it,

01:07:34   this team doesn't come after you.

01:07:36   This team is specifically devoted to product leaks.

01:07:38   It actually, and they even said like we don't,

01:07:41   they have no capability to monitor employee email, et cetera.

01:07:44   They just investigate things after the fact.

01:07:47   I did, there was, the article touched on the fact

01:07:51   that they have a SWAT team for an accidental email

01:07:55   and then they never really followed up on it.

01:07:57   But the fact that email once sent can't be unsent.

01:08:00   And so if you do an accidental reply all,

01:08:06   and a reply all chain includes somebody

01:08:08   who's not disclosed on something that you just

01:08:10   said to only the people who are supposed to be disclosed,

01:08:13   they have a process.

01:08:15   You can hit the red button on your desk,

01:08:18   and they'll quick come in and do their best to--

01:08:21   but I'm curious more about what exactly they do.

01:08:25   to get me to get rid of email

01:08:27   and i don't know i i would like to know is it really only an internal thing is

01:08:31   it

01:08:31   it internal apple dot com what happens if it goes to somebody who's out in the

01:08:35   outside world you know is there sort of a uh...

01:08:40   not like a brute squad but like uh... uh... almost like a p_r_ team

01:08:44   who comes to you know sort of

01:08:48   brybue

01:08:49   or you know joel you know

01:08:51   uh... i don't know what that

01:08:53   Do you know what I mean? Like yeah sounds like there's a process for like, you know

01:08:57   So you mean like if it goes to some what like reporter the New York Times or something like that?

01:09:00   Well, that would be I think dude

01:09:02   I think if it went to a reporter they'd know they're screwed and yeah

01:09:05   And it would go through any anything would go through Apple PR at that point

01:09:09   But if it just goes to random, I don't know okay parts like a partner. Yeah, okay, right

01:09:15   You know do they have like I would guess that they have like a official team that goes to like yeah courage them to

01:09:22   Keep your mouth set. Yeah, right you're in the loop now, but we're all friends, right? Yeah

01:09:26   And apparently I mean there as far as like the supply chain for years we were always

01:09:34   Talked about the supply chain being the weak link. Yeah, that was the big news information

01:09:39   Yeah, and that's not now and now it's not as of like a couple of years or so

01:09:45   We're just like last year. I think they said the first time where there were more leaks from Cupertino than from outside

01:09:51   and from the supply chain partners.

01:09:53   - Yeah, which I found very interesting.

01:09:55   - Yeah, I found that, I thought that was very interesting too

01:09:58   and I'm not sure from the outside

01:09:59   it jibes with my view of the company.

01:10:02   Still seems to me like we see an awful lot of,

01:10:04   unless they're false, you know what I mean?

01:10:06   We're seeing so many of these iPhone parts coming out.

01:10:09   And I don't see much that's leaking from inside the company.

01:10:14   I mentioned it before, but like iOS 11 and Mac OS--

01:10:20   - Going into WWDC, there was really not much.

01:10:24   - No, almost nothing.

01:10:25   I would say the least of any year in memory.

01:10:27   - Yeah.

01:10:28   - And maybe with High Sierra,

01:10:31   part of it is that there's just,

01:10:32   it's not that, there aren't that many new features, period,

01:10:35   but iOS 11 is certainly as big a change as any other year,

01:10:40   other than iOS, the big change with iOS 7.

01:10:44   - Yeah.

01:10:45   - What else was in that article?

01:10:48   He talked about the number of people that they have working in the supply chain at any

01:10:54   given time, which I thought was interesting, and compared it to the number of people who

01:11:00   go through the top 25 theme parks in the world on any given day.

01:11:04   I thought that was a little unfortunate of a comparison.

01:11:08   Like, it's a really crappy theme park.

01:11:11   Foxconn land.

01:11:12   Slaving away, Shenzhen.

01:11:15   (laughing)

01:11:17   Wouldn't that be great if that's how they started

01:11:22   getting people to build phones, if they just--

01:11:23   (laughing)

01:11:26   If they just branded it as like a Disney theme park,

01:11:28   but the theme is--

01:11:29   - Right, but you can't get out.

01:11:31   Yeah, the theme is working, yeah.

01:11:33   Yeah, right.

01:11:34   - The theme is you've gotta put 20 iPhones together

01:11:36   by the end of the day, no matter how long it takes.

01:11:44   The other thing that was curious was that the outline made clear that they had a recording

01:11:48   of this whole session and that they said there was about 100 people present.

01:11:54   Again, there is this irony in a presentation on Apple's anti-leaking efforts actually leaking.

01:12:02   And presumably whoever leaked it must have been offended in some way.

01:12:07   I can't imagine what would motivate somebody who worked at Apple who was at this presentation

01:12:11   to record it and leak it to the outline.

01:12:14   I really find that baffling.

01:12:17   - Well, I think what might have,

01:12:18   I mean, I'm speculating what might have happened

01:12:19   is that they record the session

01:12:21   and then they put it online on their intranet

01:12:25   so that people who couldn't attend the session

01:12:26   could watch it.

01:12:27   So it was easier to get it to somebody else.

01:12:32   Like maybe it's just like a...

01:12:33   - Oh, that might, that makes sense.

01:12:35   And that actually, if that's the case,

01:12:37   it would change my thinking on this,

01:12:41   was that they could, if there weren't,

01:12:45   they did, the outline did not release the whole recording.

01:12:48   And I think for the sake of protecting their sources,

01:12:51   you know, but they just wrote about it.

01:12:53   But there were direct quotes.

01:12:55   But I feel like they could use those quotes

01:12:57   to figure out which, you know,

01:12:58   'cause this presentation has been given

01:13:00   to employees over and over.

01:13:01   This is like something that's regularly given.

01:13:04   And they could triangulate exact quotes

01:13:07   to say this was the one that we gave on May 13th and here were the people who were there.

01:13:12   You know, yeah, the people who are these crack law enforcement agents who are investigators

01:13:18   could could narrow down the list of people who were there pretty quickly if it had to

01:13:21   be recorded at the session. Yeah, right.

01:13:24   I mean, I don't know. I don't know what I don't know how they got it, but I just know from having

01:13:31   worked at a company that a lot of times, like if you work in an operations unit and they have like

01:13:37   some sort of thing that everybody's supposed to go to, you might not be able to go because unless

01:13:42   you're doing it on off hours or something because you need to be there all the time.

01:13:45   Right. So yeah, I could see it being like that, but I think that you could watch it from your

01:13:50   desk, but you can't. I'm under the impression that that presentation is given all the time.

01:13:54   So it may not have been recorded because if you couldn't make the one on May 13th,

01:13:58   you could just go to the one that's June 13th. On the other hand, there was nothing in it that was

01:14:02   other than the mild irony of an anti-leaking presentation being leaked, there really wasn't

01:14:07   anything in there that made Apple look bad. It's just something that they don't want to talk about.

01:14:12   Anyway, good scoop for the outline. It was also funny that you were name-checked.

01:14:19   Yes, that was true. They pointed out my recent observations on scoops having run a bit dry

01:14:26   lately for Mark Gurman and they seemed to relish that.

01:14:30   In response, I think it was in the Q&A part.

01:14:31   Yeah, maybe, I don't know.

01:14:35   Yeah, I think so. And it was just, so it was not, yeah, I know that you're part of the canned

01:14:39   presentation, but somebody asked a question in response to the question that was suggested,

01:14:50   that it's working. I mean, basically that what you were saying was showing that it was working.

01:14:55   Well, in particular, who knows?

01:15:00   I mean, the kid has had a remarkable number of scoops, but he hasn't had any ones recently.

01:15:05   And the one in particular, I guess I should address it on the show, with the HomePod.

01:15:12   There was nothing that Germin reported about the HomePod that hadn't been reported at least

01:15:15   a month earlier by Ming-Chi Kuo or I forget the other guy.

01:15:19   There was another guy who had a bunch of tweets about stuff.

01:15:23   Ming-Chi Kuo had this thing. What is this thing on the top? Is it a display or not a display? And I got caught in a little

01:15:29   Squibble with people during WWDC about whether it's a display or not. It's definitely touch. You can touch it and it definitely shows

01:15:37   Plus and minus buttons when it's playing audio and so that it changes from the little Siri waveform to showing a plus and minus

01:15:45   But it's starting to sound like from what people are saying that it's not like what you would think of as a display with like

01:15:52   200 pixels per inch and it can display anything.

01:15:55   Like the plus and minus buttons might literally be

01:15:58   hard coded buttons, more like the buttons

01:16:02   on your microwave oven or something like that.

01:16:04   And that the waveform is somehow done

01:16:09   with just like three colored LEDs and a diffuser.

01:16:14   I didn't see it long enough to know.

01:16:17   I mean it definitely looked fuzzy.

01:16:19   - It's projected onto that instead of--

01:16:20   - Sort of, yeah, something like that.

01:16:23   Although it seems like an awful lot of work

01:16:25   when they could just do it with a screen

01:16:26   and then they'd have the flexibility

01:16:28   of changing it in the future.

01:16:29   But it's starting to sound like it's not really a screen

01:16:32   in terms of being able to display any arbitrary UI.

01:16:35   But it is a touch panel and it does light up

01:16:40   and it does show things.

01:16:41   So in some definition it's a screen,

01:16:44   but it's not worth worrying about.

01:16:45   But the main point in terms of observing Mark Gurman's

01:16:50   Scoops is that he had nothing on that.

01:16:52   There was nothing in his report that mentioned any--

01:16:54   all he said--

01:16:56   like the squabble is--

01:16:59   he said-- he compared it to the new Amazon thing that

01:17:02   has a real display, like a TV in your kitchen,

01:17:04   and that Apple's doesn't have anything like that.

01:17:07   And that's all he said.

01:17:08   So he obviously didn't know about the touch panel on top

01:17:10   because he didn't mention anything about it.

01:17:13   Yeah.

01:17:14   And it's just an interesting observation that--

01:17:17   And you know, tomorrow he could hit publish

01:17:20   on a huge scoop about an amazing thing

01:17:22   that we haven't heard about it.

01:17:23   He's only, he's always one verified tidbit away

01:17:27   from publishing one, so I mean it could obviously end

01:17:30   at any time, but it's obviously the case

01:17:32   that he hasn't had anything exclusive in a long time.

01:17:35   - So is it, do you think that he gets his information

01:17:38   from people inside Apple or people in the supply chain?

01:17:41   - I suspect both.

01:17:42   I think he also, I suspect just back,

01:17:46   I've always been curious at the meta level of his stuff.

01:17:48   I think he used to have somebody in the store,

01:17:51   somebody in the retail chain,

01:17:53   'cause he'd get a lot of stuff at about the time

01:17:55   that it might start percolating through retail.

01:17:58   But for example, he must have somebody inside Apple though,

01:18:02   at some level.

01:18:04   Like his best recent scoop was the AirPods.

01:18:07   He described AirPods like eight months

01:18:10   before they were announced and nobody else had it.

01:18:13   I think he even had the name AirPods,

01:18:14   Although that might have come from like a trademark filing

01:18:17   and I guess, but he had the whole,

01:18:21   the description was spot on and the whole idea

01:18:24   that you would have like the little case

01:18:27   and that that's where you,

01:18:28   that they'd last for like a couple hours on their own,

01:18:31   but then you just pop them in the case

01:18:32   and they charge back up.

01:18:34   He had all of that before anybody did.

01:18:37   So that had to have come somewhere within Apple.

01:18:39   I mean, I guess in theory,

01:18:40   it could have come from the supply chain,

01:18:41   but timing wise, it seems like that was too early

01:18:43   for the supply chain.

01:18:44   I think it came from somewhere within that.

01:18:45   I think it came from somebody who was working on AirPods.

01:18:48   And the thing that he had wrong about it was weird

01:18:52   because he was projecting that it would be a Beats product.

01:18:56   Even though Beats did come out with their own thing,

01:18:59   but there was no way.

01:19:01   But product marketing decisions are the ones

01:19:03   that leaked the least.

01:19:05   - You'd think that the same people who worked on the AirPods

01:19:06   might work on the HomePod, but maybe not.

01:19:09   - Yeah, maybe, maybe not.

01:19:10   I don't know, it's hard to say.

01:19:14   Anyway, it'd be interesting.

01:19:15   The other thing too is I wouldn't be totally surprised.

01:19:18   I mean, it would seem unlikely, but what I've heard is,

01:19:22   well, why was HomePod only announced and not,

01:19:26   why isn't it shipping until December?

01:19:27   And my understanding is that it's software,

01:19:29   that the iOS software, I don't know if it's the device

01:19:32   that actually, the software that runs on the device,

01:19:34   or the software that runs on like your iPhone and iPad

01:19:37   that you can shoot music over to it,

01:19:39   but the software is not ready, is what I've heard.

01:19:43   and that the hardware is readier to go, I don't know.

01:19:48   So I don't expect that they would replace

01:19:52   that top touch panel from a fake screen

01:19:55   to a real screen between now and December,

01:19:57   but you never know.

01:19:58   And I do suspect that strategically,

01:20:02   think about why would Apple announce this product so early?

01:20:07   Well, because they don't have anything

01:20:08   that it's competing against, right?

01:20:10   They're not, what's that company

01:20:12   that famously put themselves in bankruptcy

01:20:16   by pre-announcing their upcoming computer.

01:20:19   - Oh yeah, who was that?

01:20:20   - Osborne Computer Company.

01:20:22   So Osborne had like a PC and it was in the early years

01:20:25   when it was so fun and there were like 14 different

01:20:28   companies with their own competing PC platforms

01:20:32   and Osborne was one of them and they got up and said,

01:20:35   here's what our next one is gonna do

01:20:36   and it's gonna be so amazing.

01:20:37   And so everybody stopped buying the one

01:20:39   that they were selling.

01:20:40   (laughing)

01:20:41   - Don't buy this crap.

01:20:42   went out of business before they could ship the one that they were talking

01:20:45   about. So Apple can't Osborne itself with this because they don't sell a smart

01:20:50   speaker right now, right? That's the same reason they could pre-announce the iPhone

01:20:53   in January when it didn't go on sale until the end of June. In fact,

01:20:57   strategically it makes sense because it might stop people from buying competing

01:21:01   products in the interim, right? Like it makes me a little less likely to buy a

01:21:05   new Alexa if I think I could wait till December and maybe choose between

01:21:10   that and this. But then on the flip side, all they demoed was how good it sounds

01:21:18   because it sounds so much better than the Alexa. So you heard the sound?

01:21:25   You could hear it playing? They had played like six songs for us in a

01:21:29   reasonably, what could reasonably be a living room. It sounded fabulous.

01:21:37   - Truly fabulous.

01:21:38   - But no one touched anything.

01:21:40   - No, not allowed to touch.

01:21:42   - Yeah.

01:21:43   - And somebody, I was in a demo with like four other people

01:21:46   and the one guy at the end of it,

01:21:50   I asked if I could touch the plus and minus buttons

01:21:52   and they said no.

01:21:53   And the one guy said, "Hey Siri,"

01:21:58   and tried to get it to talk.

01:22:00   And they were like, "Nice try."

01:22:02   (laughing)

01:22:04   No, but the other thing,

01:22:05   showed so little of the software in both in terms of what you can do by touching the thing itself

01:22:11   and how you're going to control it and how you're going to set it up. But that makes sense that they

01:22:17   wouldn't show that just because they wouldn't want that's the sort of thing that if they have

01:22:20   any clever ideas they don't want to give their would-be competitors a heads up and copy them.

01:22:26   Right. But I do wonder if they just, I mean, if at this point they just have the

01:22:32   like the speaker hardware finalized and maybe there's a bunch of other things that control it

01:22:39   that they're not set on yet. No, I heard through the grapevine that this is a product that has been

01:22:44   being worked on for a while and that more or less there was a team working on it for a while but it

01:22:50   got no interest at the top levels of the company but then once like Alexa really started taking off

01:22:57   and getting a lot of press they were like don't we have a thing don't we have people working on this

01:23:00   "Can we ship one of these tomorrow?"

01:23:02   - Yeah, and they were like, "Yeah, we got these guys

01:23:03   "over there building whatever, working on it."

01:23:06   And then they went over and looked at it,

01:23:07   and then they were like, "Hey, this sounds amazing."

01:23:10   Like Schiller even said at my show,

01:23:11   the team that does the acoustics of this

01:23:14   is super, super talented.

01:23:17   I mean, the thing really does sound amazing.

01:23:18   - Yeah.

01:23:20   - It sounds good, and it does not sound like one device.

01:23:22   It does not sound like this fake,

01:23:26   or simulated surround sound.

01:23:29   It's a real thing.

01:23:30   I'm not saying it actually sounds better than having two speakers, but it certainly doesn't

01:23:33   sound like one speaker.

01:23:34   Yeah.

01:23:35   No, I have a Sonos, and the Sonos sounds great too.

01:23:38   Yeah, and the Sonos that they had next to it sounded very good, but not quite as good.

01:23:43   Yeah.

01:23:44   But that was a nice thing that they did by having the Sonos there.

01:23:49   What were we talking about?

01:23:51   Leaks.

01:23:52   Leaks.

01:23:53   (laughing)

01:23:55   As I talk about somebody who told me

01:23:56   that the team had been working on this for a while.

01:23:59   (laughing)

01:24:01   - Well, that's more of a positive story, right?

01:24:06   That's not like a--

01:24:08   - Yeah, and it's not really a leak.

01:24:09   It's not gonna-- - Yeah, no.

01:24:11   - Nobody's gonna have a,

01:24:12   there's not gonna be a MacRumors story tomorrow.

01:24:14   John Gruber says on podcast

01:24:15   that Apple had a team working on HomePod--

01:24:17   - Someone's been working on it.

01:24:18   - For a while. - Someone actually

01:24:19   had been working on this.

01:24:20   (laughing)

01:24:22   people. All right, let me take a break here and thank our third

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01:24:55   They have a storefront, they handle all that secure stuff,

01:24:58   the credit card processing, the SSL,

01:25:01   to make sure everything goes over HTTPS.

01:25:05   And the thing they're most famous for

01:25:07   is they have all this design,

01:25:09   where they have all these templates to choose from

01:25:11   and they're super customizable,

01:25:12   and your Squarespace site can look like your brand,

01:25:16   not like, oh, it's one of the seven

01:25:18   well-known Squarespace templates.

01:25:20   I'm telling you, you will be shocked

01:25:22   how many businesses and sites that you go to

01:25:25   or Squarespace sites that you just have no idea.

01:25:28   Just poke around sometime,

01:25:29   like when a new restaurant opens up

01:25:31   and has a very cool looking website,

01:25:32   view source and see if it's Squarespace

01:25:34   up there in the little HTML headers.

01:25:37   And you'll be surprised.

01:25:38   Like last three times I've done that here in Philadelphia

01:25:40   with a new restaurant, it's been Squarespace.

01:25:45   In fact, I think there's even a shortcut.

01:25:47   I think you can just hit the escape key.

01:25:49   And it's like a Squarespace shortcut

01:25:50   for getting to their control panel.

01:25:52   Anyway, I cannot emphasize enough

01:25:55   how much time, effort you'll save by going with Squarespace

01:25:59   instead of doing this yourself

01:26:01   and how much money you'll save

01:26:02   versus paying thousands and thousands of dollars

01:26:04   to have somebody build you a website.

01:26:05   You could just do it yourself.

01:26:06   You don't have to be an expert on web design

01:26:09   or the web technologies.

01:26:12   It's like Squarespace makes it as possible

01:26:14   to just do your website yourself and have it look great

01:26:17   as like word processing was back in the day

01:26:20   as opposed to hiring somebody

01:26:21   to type up a professional resume for you, right?

01:26:24   It's like, that's what they've done for the web,

01:26:26   really is, they've taken it to that level.

01:26:29   They sponsor the show all the time, you've heard of them,

01:26:33   but they keep sponsoring because you guys keep going there

01:26:35   and checking them out.

01:26:36   So do it, remember, go to squarespace.com

01:26:39   and use this offer code, Gruber, my last name,

01:26:42   and you will get 10% off your first purchase.

01:26:45   You can even purchase up to a year in advance.

01:26:47   So you could save 10% for the entire year

01:26:48   if you use that code, Gruber.

01:26:50   So remember that.

01:26:51   And my thanks to them for supporting the show

01:26:54   and my thanks to all of you

01:26:55   who are apparently making Squarespace websites

01:26:58   and using that code.

01:27:00   - Did you, you saw the report that,

01:27:05   well, speculation that the iMac Pro,

01:27:08   the keyboard might come with touch ID.

01:27:11   I guess it has a--

01:27:13   - Yeah.

01:27:14   I wonder if they could do it over the air though

01:27:17   to the keyboard.

01:27:18   Yeah, somebody--

01:27:19   - So iMac, so who is this?

01:27:21   Pike, what's his name?

01:27:24   Christopher Pike?

01:27:25   No, that's the captain on Star Trek.

01:27:26   - Yeah.

01:27:27   - Anyway, I'm sure it'll be in your show notes,

01:27:30   but the iMac Pro comes with a secure enclave processor.

01:27:35   - Yeah, and they figured this out by looking at,

01:27:39   I don't know if it was High Sierra, probably High Sierra,

01:27:41   because there's no reason that it would be in regular Sierra

01:27:43   since the iMac Pro is never going to run regular Sierra.

01:27:47   Somebody was poking around the bits of the High Sierra

01:27:50   developer beta, and they found--

01:27:52   you can often find little tidbits of upcoming hardware

01:27:55   in there.

01:27:56   And long story short, the proof of it--

01:28:00   you have to be like a super nerd to figure it out.

01:28:02   But looks like it might have an ARM coprocessor like the Touch

01:28:06   ID sensor in the MacBooks, MacBook Pros.

01:28:10   I wonder though if they could do it wirelessly.

01:28:12   I mean, it'd be cool if they did,

01:28:13   but maybe the touch ID sensor would be somewhere,

01:28:16   it'd be like trying to get the SD card slot in the back.

01:28:21   (laughs)

01:28:22   - Well, but they do Apple Pay.

01:28:27   So you can, I mean, you can pay,

01:28:31   like if you don't have, like I have touch bar MacBook Pro,

01:28:34   but you can Apple Pay from your phone

01:28:37   or from your watch on your Mac.

01:28:39   - Yeah, but that's different than having

01:28:41   the actual processor, you know what I mean?

01:28:42   The actual system on a chip, you know what I mean?

01:28:44   You could do Apple Pay on,

01:28:45   I could do Apple Pay on my old MacBook here.

01:28:48   - Yeah.

01:28:49   - It does, it's, you know, Apple, you just need--

01:28:52   - But you mean you can do it,

01:28:53   you can validate from your phone or from your watch?

01:28:57   - Yeah, I could do it from my phone.

01:28:59   Like if I go to somebody's website

01:29:01   who has Apple Pay on their website,

01:29:02   it'll just ping my phone and I can touch ID on it.

01:29:04   - Okay, so it doesn't have any, well.

01:29:06   - No, this would be like a way--

01:29:08   - I don't know how that works.

01:29:10   - Well, they could put the sensor in the keyboard,

01:29:12   although they've shown the keyboard

01:29:13   and it didn't look like it had it.

01:29:14   - It didn't look like it had one, yeah.

01:29:17   - Who knows, who knows what they're doing with it?

01:29:18   It could be that they've got that,

01:29:20   they've got a little iOS processor in there

01:29:23   for an entirely different reason.

01:29:24   In the way that your AirPods are really

01:29:32   tiny little iOS computing devices,

01:29:36   but you don't think of them as such.

01:29:37   there might be some sort of cool feature in there,

01:29:39   but they were like, well, we could do it,

01:29:40   but it would almost be like building a computer

01:29:42   and a computer and they'd be like, well, we can do that.

01:29:44   But who knows if it's touch ID.

01:29:46   - Yeah.

01:29:47   It seems at some point that that,

01:29:50   you're starting to, if you're not gonna

01:29:53   have the stuff available on all your platforms,

01:29:58   that seems kind of weird to me, but I guess you,

01:30:00   and you can do the touch bar on everything.

01:30:03   - I guess so.

01:30:04   I'm a little bit surprised that the new MacBook

01:30:08   didn't have the touch bar.

01:30:09   And there were no rumors about it having it,

01:30:12   but I just thought, well, why wouldn't they?

01:30:15   It's not like the thing is sold at a discount.

01:30:16   It's a pretty expensive computer, really.

01:30:18   - Right.

01:30:19   - And I mean, but it could just be space.

01:30:22   Obviously, that thing is,

01:30:24   it's like three sheets of paper thick.

01:30:26   - Yeah.

01:30:27   - So, but I don't know.

01:30:29   I was a little surprised that it didn't have it.

01:30:34   Same way I would guess that ProMotion is coming to the iPhone this year.

01:30:37   Right.

01:30:39   Like I shot my mouth off about True Tone coming to the iPhone,

01:30:42   but that makes sense because True Tone requires sensors to sense the ambient light,

01:30:47   and sensors take up space and the phone doesn't have space to spare.

01:30:51   I mean, I don't know if you heard, but they even took...

01:30:53   Nobody noticed, but last year they took out the headphone jack.

01:30:55   They took out the headphone jack on the iPhone because they needed the space.

01:31:02   So the fact is anybody told that has anybody told the verge? I don't think so.

01:31:07   So what should call the verge? Uh, so I would expect, but I would expect, uh,

01:31:12   cause I think all you need for promotion is you need the software support in iOS

01:31:16   and you need a really super fast GPU and they've already done the work in iOS

01:31:21   obviously. And uh, the GPU,

01:31:25   I would guess is not going to, you know,

01:31:27   I would guess that the iPhone is going to have a nice GPU. So I would hope that

01:31:32   it has this promotion. But it seems like they've got a few technologies floating out there

01:31:36   that are on certain devices but not, I mean like 3D touch is not on the iPads either.

01:31:43   Right, right. I wonder about 3D touch. I wonder, I don't know. I feel like it, that's a feature

01:31:50   that I just don't, I still don't know if I like it.

01:31:55   I mean, I only had it for a little while.

01:31:58   Well, six, seven months, something like that,

01:32:01   until the SE came out.

01:32:04   And I liked it.

01:32:05   I think using it in Tweetbot was probably the single biggest

01:32:10   because you could look, you could just 3D touch on a tweet

01:32:14   and see the thread basically, you know,

01:32:18   replies and stuff like that.

01:32:20   So what?

01:32:21   I used that a lot.

01:32:22   But I didn't use it that much.

01:32:25   I mean, it was early, but I didn't use it that much

01:32:27   like in Springboard to do special things with the fast.

01:32:30   - See, I use Tweetbot every day.

01:32:32   Tweetbot is usually the number one battery usage on my phone

01:32:36   and I say that not as a complaint

01:32:38   that Tweetbot is an abnormal battery hog,

01:32:41   but it's just, it's the most, it's the app I use.

01:32:43   - It's where you spend your time.

01:32:43   - I spend by far the most time on Tweetbot.

01:32:46   I did not know I could 3D touch on a tweet,

01:32:49   but I don't like it.

01:32:51   I don't think I like it as much as swiping

01:32:54   from right to left.

01:32:55   I get the same view if I swipe right to left

01:32:57   and it feels faster to me.

01:32:58   I feel like the--

01:33:01   - Well, I don't know, I liked it 'cause I could do it

01:33:03   and then I could release it

01:33:04   and that was a little easier than going back, but.

01:33:06   - Right.

01:33:07   Does your iPhone SE have a real button,

01:33:10   or a home button, or a virtual home button?

01:33:12   - Yeah, real button.

01:33:13   - So you have a real home button.

01:33:14   - Yeah, I mean, it's basic,

01:33:15   other than the chips and stuff like that on the inside,

01:33:17   it's identical to the 5S.

01:33:21   - That's where I am sold on the haptics.

01:33:25   I love that button.

01:33:26   I have to say. - I like that button too.

01:33:28   I mean, I was perfectly fine.

01:33:29   I've only, oh, I guess the 6S did not have that button,

01:33:32   right? - No, it started.

01:33:34   - 6S, but I have used, I mean, I've used my wife's

01:33:37   and my son's 7, and I'm perfectly fine with that button.

01:33:41   - Yeah.

01:33:42   Totally, so I just feel like 3D Touch has to get better,

01:33:47   and I kind of feel like it needs to be everywhere.

01:33:48   Like, I think that even to get back to your point.

01:33:50   - Well, that's kinda how I feel about the touch bar too.

01:33:52   - Yeah, yeah, and I feel like the touch bar, honestly,

01:33:57   I feel like the touch bar needs 3D touch.

01:33:59   I want those buttons to click a little bit when I tap 'em.

01:34:02   I don't like that they're inert.

01:34:05   - Yeah, that would be better.

01:34:06   - And it's just because it doesn't,

01:34:08   they did this thing with a diffuser

01:34:10   so that it looks sort of like fake keys.

01:34:14   It doesn't look like a bright, shiny display.

01:34:16   It's not glossy, it has sort of a matte finish,

01:34:19   and it's diffused a little bit so that the fake keys look like real keys.

01:34:23   It's a very nice effect.

01:34:24   It just makes it less distracting than it would be if it was like a bright,

01:34:29   shiny iPhone display going across the top of your keyboard.

01:34:32   But it also means to me, it feels like they should click a little bit.

01:34:38   I don't like it when I'm using a microwave oven or something,

01:34:41   where they have these permanent hard--

01:34:44   the buttons are painted on the device.

01:34:46   But if they don't give any physical feedback at all,

01:34:48   if they just beep or whatever, I find that unpleasant.

01:34:51   - Yeah.

01:34:52   - I feel like they should, you know,

01:34:53   just give me a little feedback, a little click.

01:34:56   What else do we have going on?

01:35:00   We've got, how about all this Uber crap that's going on?

01:35:02   This is me reading from my notes for the show.

01:35:06   All this Uber crap that's going on.

01:35:08   There's part of me, I've linked to a lot of this stuff

01:35:14   recently during Fireball and I've been following along,

01:35:18   And there's part of me is like, why the fuck do we even care about this?

01:35:20   I mean, it does. It is sort of,

01:35:23   I don't know if we're right to be fascinated by this or are we wasting time?

01:35:27   No, I think, I mean, I, I believe that you,

01:35:30   you vote with your dollars and so you should, I mean,

01:35:34   that's one of the reasons why in general I like buying Apple stuff.

01:35:37   Cause I think in certainly in terms of privacy,

01:35:40   I think they care a little bit more about people's privacy than everybody else.

01:35:43   Um, and if I have options at the very least,

01:35:47   I want to use somebody who is a better citizen if they're, you know, and I,

01:35:54   and I don't want to, I don't want to funnel. I mean, I think you can see, uh,

01:35:58   you feed this sort of toxic machine when you funnel money to these people who are

01:36:03   themselves toxic. So I don't want to give Travis Kalanick any more money.

01:36:08   You, you know, a lot of people who work at Apple,

01:36:16   You've met them over the years.

01:36:18   I'm not saying to a T. It's a big company,

01:36:21   and they've hired more.

01:36:22   But in general, people who work at Apple, in my experience,

01:36:25   are good people.

01:36:26   They just tend to be nice people.

01:36:29   They're the sort of people who, to a person,

01:36:32   if they noticed that you left your wallet behind,

01:36:34   and they don't even know who you are,

01:36:35   they're going to grab it and say, hey, hey, buddy,

01:36:37   you just left your wallet.

01:36:38   The world is full of good people.

01:36:42   I think most people are good.

01:36:43   but Apple definitely is a company whose culture

01:36:47   is mostly good people.

01:36:49   I don't understand how an entire company

01:36:50   could form around such a moral abyss as Uber.

01:36:55   Like, and the one to me,

01:36:58   and the whole thing with the culture of sexism,

01:37:02   rampant sexism, and just the absolute worst,

01:37:07   you know, sexual harassment on the job,

01:37:09   and an HR system that obviously was just flushing the reports of it right down the freaking

01:37:16   toilet.

01:37:19   Absolutely horrible.

01:37:20   But this Kalanick, there was that guy email whatever his name is, his number two guy,

01:37:26   and that he literally threatened Sarah Lacy, a reporter who's now the founder of Pando,

01:37:33   literally threatened her and said, "Why don't you know?"

01:37:36   was recorded talking to someone and saying,

01:37:39   well, I'm thinking what we should do

01:37:41   is hire investigators to look into her,

01:37:43   to another reporter, and the other reporter's like,

01:37:45   why are you telling me this?

01:37:46   And he goes, well, this is off the record, right?

01:37:48   And he's like, no, you didn't say that.

01:37:50   You just told me this.

01:37:52   And so we reported it, and they didn't fire the guy.

01:37:55   Like, how do you not fire,

01:37:56   how are you the CEO of this company,

01:37:58   other than the answer being that you yourself

01:38:00   are a horrible person?

01:38:01   - Right, right.

01:38:02   - Like, you say, well, this guy was,

01:38:04   It's not like he was alleged to have said this.

01:38:06   This is actually what he said that we're going to hire investigators to dig dirt

01:38:10   on people who write critical articles about Uber. Yeah.

01:38:13   Look into their personal lives. Yeah. And you say, yeah, that's my number two.

01:38:17   I like this guy. I like his style. I like the cut of his,

01:38:19   like the cut of his gym. He's gone now though. Right. Yeah.

01:38:24   I think that guy is gone and obviously call it because I'm gone. But, um,

01:38:28   yeah, I just, I don't, I, I,

01:38:32   I understand that there are some, in some instances,

01:38:35   for purposes of safety and a variety of other things,

01:38:42   you have to use sometimes a service from a company

01:38:45   that you might not generally approve of their conduct.

01:38:50   But in instances where I do have a choice,

01:38:56   and I mean, I will, I mean, I like,

01:38:59   so when we were in San Diego,

01:39:00   we just used Lyft the whole time.

01:39:02   And not that Lyft is not a perfect company either

01:39:04   by any stretch of the imagination.

01:39:06   However, they seem to be objectively better than Uber.

01:39:09   And at a certain point,

01:39:13   I think a company can get so bad where you just say,

01:39:17   "You know what, I cannot use this company at all."

01:39:19   - Yeah.

01:39:20   Anyway, the other thing,

01:39:23   I don't wanna spend too much time on Uber,

01:39:24   but the other thing is I can't,

01:39:26   I can't get what their business is.

01:39:31   I don't see why people think that this,

01:39:32   I don't see why there were $70 billion,

01:39:36   because yes, they did change the world.

01:39:38   The world's a different place now

01:39:41   with these ride-sharing services that you can hail,

01:39:42   and it's really great.

01:39:43   And for some people, it's even more important than others,

01:39:46   just because they weren't serviced by taxis.

01:39:50   It's not just like, oh, taxis were unpleasant,

01:39:52   and now Ubers are pleasant,

01:39:54   but there wasn't even taxi service from A to B,

01:39:57   and now they can get an Uber and they don't have to drive.

01:40:00   And surely it's a good thing.

01:40:01   It's a tremendous thing to keep people

01:40:04   who've had a couple of drinks off the road.

01:40:06   It's so much easier from so many places

01:40:09   that before you either drive yourself and take a chance,

01:40:15   which is a terrible thing to do,

01:40:18   to go back to texting and driving,

01:40:20   especially if you take a couple drinks

01:40:21   and you're texting while you're driving home.

01:40:23   I mean, I've seen stories about it.

01:40:26   It has a measured, the world's a better place for this.

01:40:29   I don't see how they have a unique competitive advantage.

01:40:32   Like as soon as they raise their rates

01:40:33   to pay their drivers enough,

01:40:35   somebody else is gonna undercut them on price.

01:40:37   Like it's naturally going to be a commodity type thing.

01:40:39   And the technology isn't really that difficult.

01:40:42   You just need GPS and maps

01:40:44   and you don't have to do the maps yourself.

01:40:45   There's APIs that you can use the iOS maps or Google maps.

01:40:49   So I don't see how they're worth money.

01:40:51   I mean, I think that's why they were so hell bent

01:40:53   on developing their own self-driving car technology

01:40:58   that they would literally hire hire a guy to steal. I mean, a

01:41:02   lot of these a lot of these drivers drive for both. Right.

01:41:05   And if they could, in theory, if they came up with a self driving

01:41:09   car technology, that that they own the technology to well, then

01:41:13   there's a business because then they're it makes, you know,

01:41:17   obviously, it reduces what they pay their drivers to zero. And

01:41:20   it's something that they can license to others. But as it

01:41:22   stands now as the app where you say, give me a ride, and then

01:41:26   your ride shows up, I don't see how that's a $70 billion business.

01:41:30   The other thing too I don't get is I don't see how they think they're...

01:41:34   Somebody's going to take the job as CEO, but who the hell?

01:41:36   I wouldn't take it because Kalanick is still on the board because they can't really get

01:41:40   rid of him because he owns all the stock and they can't just take a stock away.

01:41:46   I mean, they got Bozema St. John, right?

01:41:51   - Yeah.

01:41:52   - From Apple.

01:41:53   - And we still don't know why.

01:41:55   - Yeah, I don't really know why either.

01:41:58   - I have a theory on that.

01:41:59   No, I don't know.

01:42:00   - So I don't know if they're,

01:42:01   but I don't know if they're like actively

01:42:02   like trying to go out and say,

01:42:03   "Okay, well, let's make some high profile."

01:42:06   - Well, somebody, I did not, I can't prove this.

01:42:08   Somebody on Slack today said that they're apparently,

01:42:11   the word is that they're trying to get

01:42:12   Sheryl Sandberg from Facebook.

01:42:14   It would be a fantastic hire for Uber.

01:42:19   I can't see why she would prefer being number one at Uber.

01:42:26   You know, it needs a clean up and might have a severe fundamental business problem.

01:42:34   Why would she leave Facebook for that?

01:42:37   But who knows?

01:42:38   But anyway.

01:42:39   So with Bozoma St. John, here's my theory,

01:42:42   is that from Uber's perspective,

01:42:44   you could see why they'd want her.

01:42:46   She is obviously a very dynamic personality.

01:42:50   She's great.

01:42:52   She's black.

01:42:53   She's a woman.

01:42:54   That's a lot of problems, perception problems

01:42:56   that Uber's had is that it's a company

01:42:58   run by straight white guys who are assholes.

01:43:02   She's obviously, you can just tell,

01:43:03   I mean, her Twitter handle is Badass Boz.

01:43:05   She's not gonna take any bullshit, right?

01:43:08   - Yeah.

01:43:09   So if they're hiring her to be the public face

01:43:13   of Uber's product marketing,

01:43:15   'cause I can only imagine she'd leave Uber,

01:43:17   that it must have been a very sweet offer.

01:43:19   That's a great hire for them,

01:43:21   and I can kind of see why she would take it,

01:43:23   because she could, being like the public product marketing

01:43:28   face of Uber is way more time

01:43:31   than she's ever gonna get at Apple, right?

01:43:33   She's one of many product marketing stars

01:43:35   within a very large company.

01:43:38   I could see it. The people who are totally baffled by that, I actually, and you know, in terms of,

01:43:43   wow, it's a rotten culture in there. I salute her if she's going in there to say, "I can help fix

01:43:48   this." You know, like, I don't think she's going in there. I would be shocked. I'd never met her,

01:43:54   but I'd be absolutely shocked from what I know of her that she was going in there and saying, "Well,

01:43:58   yeah," you know. I guess, I mean, like, as someone who's never, like, I've never been in a position,

01:44:05   I've never been in a position of power in an organization.

01:44:09   Not really.

01:44:10   I mean, like a brief--

01:44:11   like, I was a manager for a small, small amount of time.

01:44:16   And so just to me, the idea of going to work someplace

01:44:18   that's so toxic just seems like, oh, forget that.

01:44:21   Yeah.

01:44:21   I'm not going to deal with your shit.

01:44:23   I would only-- yeah.

01:44:24   I don't feel like my personality is such that I

01:44:26   come in and change a culture.

01:44:28   I want to go somewhere and fit in and feel like this

01:44:31   is a culture that I support.

01:44:32   But I can totally--

01:44:33   Yeah, that's like--

01:44:33   I think about places like where I would like to go to work, you know, like it's people that I know,

01:44:38   like, like panic or, you know, like somebody that I know who I like, it'd be great to go work there.

01:44:43   Right. But yeah, going to work for a bunch of dicks doesn't seem like a good time.

01:44:48   No, it does not. What else do we got here? Do you have a Nintendo Switch?

01:44:53   That's a sore spot. No, I do not have a Nintendo Switch. I've screwed it up. I've screwed it up

01:44:59   like twice now and I don't have one. Nintendo came out today in an interview

01:45:03   with ours and said they are not purposefully under you know under

01:45:07   underproducing them yeah well I mean I had heard that like I mean the rumor was

01:45:11   that Apple is scooping up all the chips and they can't get any. Don't you think I

01:45:15   saw that story don't you think that that's just a typical way to put Apple

01:45:19   in the headline because all yeah you read the actual article they weren't

01:45:23   literally saying Apple in particular they were saying that they're one of you

01:45:27   know that there are components that all of these devices use you know like RAM

01:45:31   chips and stuff like that and bigger companies like Apple and Samsung get to

01:45:35   the head of the line yeah I mean you know if anything it if you wanted to be

01:45:40   fair it should have been Apple and Samsung because they are the two

01:45:43   gorillas nobody wants it to be in terms of you just you know like you you're

01:45:48   waiting in line for the movie the movie just to sell you a ticket and Apple

01:45:52   shows up and just says we're gonna buy all the tickets. Well, you know, kind of

01:45:58   sucks but that's, you know, that's what happens when you're buying 70 million,

01:46:02   they're making 70 million iPhones a year. So we got a switch a couple, a bit ago. A

01:46:06   friend of the show, Matthew Panzorino, hooked me up. He texted me the one day, he

01:46:09   was in Target and he's like, "Oh my god, they've got switches on the shelf. Do you

01:46:13   want me to get you one?" I was like, "Yes! Yes! Get me one and send it." Oh no, what

01:46:18   happened? I gotta talk to him. What happened first was he texted me like the

01:46:22   week before and said Amazon just got a, he knows I want one. And he said, Amazon just

01:46:26   got a shipment of switches. And I went there and they had them and you, you're on the Slack

01:46:31   with me. I was, I dicked around on the Slack. That's what I did. I dicked around. I waited

01:46:36   like an hour thinking about it and then they're all gone. Yeah. I was trying to figure out

01:46:39   like, do I want one pro controller or two? Uh, and then I was like, I guess I'll just

01:46:46   get one to start and if we like it, we'll get another one. And I got, and they're all

01:46:48   I was like, "Ah, Jon, dumb shit."

01:46:51   So the next time I didn't hesitate.

01:46:53   Anyway, I got one, here's my one word review.

01:46:55   It's very fun and I like it.

01:46:57   And it has a very, very nice onboarding.

01:46:59   Like setting it up was very nice.

01:47:01   - Okay.

01:47:02   - But I haven't really played enough.

01:47:03   And the other problem I have, you might appreciate this.

01:47:06   I'm having problems getting Jonas to play with me

01:47:08   because we only really have two games.

01:47:09   We've got the Zelda and we got the Mario Kart.

01:47:12   And I'm not interested in the Zelda.

01:47:14   Maybe someday if I get sick or something,

01:47:16   I'll spend the day with it or whatever.

01:47:17   But Jonas seems to like it.

01:47:19   But with the Mario Kart, the problem is,

01:47:21   is that I'm still good enough at Mario Kart

01:47:23   where I beat Jonas.

01:47:24   And now he won't play with me.

01:47:26   - Yeah.

01:47:28   He won't play with you at all, huh?

01:47:30   We haven't played Mario Kart in a long time,

01:47:31   but we play a lot of other things.

01:47:34   And he's getting to the point where he can beat me

01:47:37   at a few things.

01:47:38   And he's beat me at Mario Kart a few times now.

01:47:41   I still usually win, but he's getting there.

01:47:46   We had a game for the Wii U,

01:47:51   which was a lamented purchase overall.

01:47:56   But we had a James Bond game,

01:47:58   I think it was called GoldenEye,

01:47:59   but it wasn't the old classic N64,

01:48:01   it wasn't like a remake,

01:48:02   it's just they just made a new James Bond

01:48:04   first person shooter,

01:48:05   but it had a mode like the old N64 one,

01:48:08   where you could do a split screen,

01:48:10   and so me and Jonas playing side by side

01:48:12   could play each other.

01:48:13   I couldn't even get a shot on him.

01:48:16   I mean, he just kept blowing my head off.

01:48:18   And he was just, and I was trying my best.

01:48:20   And I used to be really good at the N64 version

01:48:22   of that game, I used to be really good at it.

01:48:25   I just couldn't, I've lost my reflexes are lower.

01:48:29   I don't really, I don't play any first person shooters, so.

01:48:31   - That's why you shouldn't be flipping any babies.

01:48:34   - And I mean, like to say that he wiped me out

01:48:39   was an overstatement.

01:48:40   And then he'd start like gloating

01:48:42   and purposefully using shitty guns.

01:48:45   You know

01:48:47   You know, I've got like some kind of you know monster Arnold Schwarzenegger, you know rack-mounted, you know

01:48:53   Yeah the machine gun you get that you've got the rail gun and he's these with it. He's got a pistol

01:48:58   He's got like a revolver on purpose. Yeah, and he'll like shoot a couple off. He'll like hell our hair

01:49:02   I'll empty half the clip and

01:49:04   Come on, but now he won't play Mario Kart because I've come in first and he comes in second makes me mad

01:49:09   And what he does is he sort of what he started doing like last week is sort of passive aggressively

01:49:14   Like not even trying like I need to come in 12th and it's like come on

01:49:18   At least give me a fight. We've got we have a like a classic like a used game place over at the mall and

01:49:25   And now Hank is like in love with this place like he so we go over there and we get old games and he got

01:49:31   I think it's the force unleashed

01:49:34   For I think it's yes for the yes for the Wii U

01:49:38   or for the Wii maybe it would you might have been before but

01:49:42   He played so he got that and he played it for a little while and you know

01:49:45   They wanted to play me and so he was he was killing me and then I started getting better

01:49:48   I was like and then and then sure enough he was yeah

01:49:51   he hasn't asked me to play in a little while, but he's still I think he's still better than at it than I am and

01:49:55   But but if that's the kind of I think you but that's the kind of one that I would I would pick up fairly quickly

01:50:02   No on a I again, I'm not a serious gamer Jonas's but Jonas, you know, he has a PlayStation and he you know

01:50:08   It's very serious about it

01:50:10   He acknowledges that the the switch graphics are fine, you know and for rendering Nintendo style games

01:50:17   It's terrific. I thought even the Wii U looked sort of mmm, and I don't know maybe it's even like the same technology

01:50:25   maybe it's not even that much better of a platform than the Wii U but there's

01:50:29   Something about it that feels better to me. Yeah, it's packaged much better

01:50:33   Yeah, and the responsiveness on the little handheld screen is terrific. Whereas that the the one that came with the Wii U man

01:50:39   that thing was a turd. Yeah, no, it's not. It's no good. Yeah. So it's good to see Nintendo have it

01:50:44   get back. Yeah, definitely back on their game. That's my Yeah, and I, you know, I am I am I have

01:50:49   alerts set up, waiting to get and you can buy like game stuff has like packages that you can buy,

01:50:55   but none of the packages were ones that I really wanted. Yeah. And it's like, there's like, yeah,

01:50:59   I mean, like Breath of the Wild and Mario Kart would be the two ones that I would really want.

01:51:04   And these were ones that I didn't even.

01:51:08   It's like, you know, the grocery, you know, like

01:51:10   so, you know, so basically there's something like it's you have to pay

01:51:14   four hundred bucks, but you do get a couple extra things.

01:51:17   Yeah. I think that's about it.

01:51:21   I got to get going.

01:51:23   Unless there's anything important that you think that we didn't talk about.

01:51:26   Chris Latner left Tesla.

01:51:29   Oh, yeah, that's right.

01:51:30   We we did not discuss that.

01:51:32   Yeah, that's a weird one.

01:51:33   So Chris Lattner was an inventor of the Swift programming language and all sorts of other

01:51:38   developer technology at Apple and in a somewhat surprised, I think a lot of people left in January

01:51:45   to become the head up Tesla's self-driving software group and like two days ago abruptly

01:51:55   left the company. I don't know what the heck went on there.

01:52:00   Well, I guess that's the other thing about, you know, like when you're in that level of position,

01:52:05   if you probably learn pretty, you probably learn pretty quickly if things are working out or not,

01:52:11   like, or if it's what you know, what you want. I'm worried for him because I feel like with

01:52:15   his meager resume, he's going to have a hard time getting another job.

01:52:19   He's only got seven years on Swift. His resume.

01:52:24   A lot of jokes about that recently.

01:52:29   His resume, if you just look at it,

01:52:31   looks like the combined resume for the Stanford computer

01:52:34   science department's faculty.

01:52:37   Like if you were a kid going--

01:52:39   a hotshot kid with a high SAT score

01:52:41   and you want to go study comp sci and you're

01:52:44   looking at Stanford and you're like, well,

01:52:45   what's the faculty done?

01:52:46   And their joint accomplishments were Chris Latner's.

01:52:49   You'd be like, oh, that seems like a pretty good school.

01:52:53   I feel like he should.

01:52:53   And I like how it's formatted like it's

01:52:55   Usenet or something else.

01:52:55   Oh, I love it.

01:52:56   I love it.

01:52:57   It's totally old school.

01:52:58   million years old. I think it's like a... Like she doesn't get like...

01:53:01   If you want me, you know you want me. I think that it's formatted as...

01:53:07   That's what HTML looks like if you don't use any CSS. It's just like the default, you know,

01:53:11   which I kind of love. Yeah, definitely.

01:53:15   So anyway, good luck to him. I wouldn't be surprised if he wants it back.

01:53:18   Best wishes, thoughts and prayers.

01:53:20   All right.

01:53:23   Hope he lands on his feet.

01:53:24   I've got to run.

01:53:27   OK, thank you John for joining.

01:53:29   Thank you.

01:53:30   This was a lot of fun and I'll see you soon.

01:53:33   OK, have a good trip.

01:53:34   All right, thanks.

01:53:35   Thanks.

01:53:36   [END]

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