The Talk Show

194: ‘Egg Freckles’ With Serenity Caldwell


00:00:00   Serenity Caldwell, welcome to the show. Welcome back to the show. Good to see you last week.

00:00:03   Good to see you too. It's always fun to see people in person after talking to them on the internet

00:00:09   for six months at a time. Totally true. I feel like we have like a thousand things to talk about.

00:00:17   Right? Yeah, I mean there are only a few things that happened last week, so you know,

00:00:22   it's... was it really last week? I don't understand. It feels like a month ago.

00:00:26   - All right, so you were there, I was there,

00:00:29   and everybody, you know, it's how you make small talk.

00:00:32   You're like, "Hey, what'd you think of the keynote?"

00:00:33   And most people were like, "Hey, that was great."

00:00:36   And I ran into, I would say 20% of the people I ran into

00:00:41   were like, "Eh," I'd give it a B minus.

00:00:43   And I'm like, "What the hell are you thinking?"

00:00:46   - Yeah. - I don't get that.

00:00:48   I don't understand how you could, I don't get it.

00:00:52   I'm sorry.

00:00:54   - No, no, I'm in complete agreement with you.

00:00:57   I mean, we were sitting next to each other at the keynote.

00:00:59   - That's true.

00:01:00   - And I'm pretty sure on multiple occasions,

00:01:02   either I turn to you or you turn to me

00:01:04   and it just, it felt overwhelming.

00:01:05   It felt like a tidal wave of all of these things

00:01:09   just to the point where like I couldn't recover.

00:01:11   It took me 48 hours to be in a normal state of mind

00:01:15   because I just felt like we were constantly

00:01:16   being over-washed with, oh, and we've been working on AR.

00:01:19   Oh, and we've been working on VR.

00:01:21   Oh, and there's a new iMac Pro.

00:01:23   Oh, and of course, new operating systems.

00:01:25   Oh, and your iPad.

00:01:27   Here's a new iPad.

00:01:28   Oh, and ProMotion.

00:01:29   None of you are gonna know what that means,

00:01:31   but you're gonna like it.

00:01:32   It's just, I don't understand how you--

00:01:33   - Here's a totally new multitasking interface

00:01:36   for iPad Pro users. (laughing)

00:01:38   Here are brand new MacBook Pros, a new MacBook.

00:01:43   Here's brand new iMacs.

00:01:44   Like you said, here's the upcoming iMac Pro.

00:01:47   And then, in addition to all these things

00:01:50   which are like actual products

00:01:51   that you can either buy right now today

00:01:54   or you will be able to buy later this year,

00:01:57   then they were like, here's our AR kit.

00:01:59   [LAUGHTER]

00:02:01   I really don't.

00:02:03   And I understand that maybe people

00:02:05   have a pet feature or thing that maybe didn't get addressed.

00:02:10   But to me, I have to admit that that was a pretty good keynote.

00:02:14   And even if it didn't get your pet feature or product,

00:02:19   It's like, you have to admit they knocked down a lot of pins

00:02:22   in the bowling alley on that keynote.

00:02:24   - They absolutely did.

00:02:27   And I mean, I don't understand how at least one

00:02:31   of your pet features did not get answered

00:02:34   during that keynote because there were so many little fixes.

00:02:37   Like drag and drop is a big,

00:02:38   I'm like, how is drag and drop not on everybody's list?

00:02:42   At least in some minor form

00:02:44   or automatic translation on Siri.

00:02:47   That's something I've been wanting it to do for, I don't know, four years.

00:02:51   Uh, God, the fact that drag and drop also fixes the home screen issue.

00:02:56   So you can move multiple icons at once or yeah, there's just, it, I often

00:03:02   stammer when people are like, what was your favorite new feature?

00:03:05   What was your, like, I haven't even gotten to make my like little features

00:03:09   that I liked that you didn't hear about because quite honestly, there are so many

00:03:13   that it, it feels, uh, God.

00:03:16   It's just like every time I try and think of them,

00:03:18   I think of seven at once,

00:03:20   and then my brain just shuts down.

00:03:21   - I said this during the live show with Craig and Phil,

00:03:28   and I apologize that you're following up

00:03:32   on Craig Federighi and Phil Schiller.

00:03:34   It's either the best or worst slot of the year

00:03:36   on the talk show.

00:03:38   But I said this, and I did say this,

00:03:40   but I'll say it again,

00:03:41   'cause I know you can back me up on this,

00:03:44   is that it's just sort of a trope in the press area

00:03:50   where when those catch-all slides go up, like, oh,

00:03:54   and here's the 29 things that are new in Mac OS

00:03:58   that we didn't get to talk about here,

00:04:01   the way it goes in the keynote is slowly but surely everybody

00:04:05   in the press area sort of raises their phone or their standalone

00:04:07   camera and they quick snap a photo of that slide.

00:04:10   And they're like, well, I'll take a look

00:04:12   at that after the keynote's over and look to see if there's anything really interesting

00:04:17   that just sort of snuck into that slide. And over and over and over again in that keynote,

00:04:21   they'd put that slide up, the catch-all slide, and by the time people got their cameras up,

00:04:26   it was gone. And everybody's like, "Oh my god, did you get a picture of that?" It went

00:04:31   so fast. It went so fast. Here's a fun thing. There are something like 75 features on that

00:04:39   slide. And they're not like little things. Like, I mean, there are a couple little things, right?

00:04:43   Like, flashlight support for iPad Pro is probably a little thing. But they also have like these big,

00:04:49   giant features that they just kind of snuck in there, like Type to Siri, which is currently

00:04:54   an accessibility feature. But I know quite a few people who have been like, "Man, you know,

00:05:00   Siri would be really nice if I could just type to it the same way that I typed to Google Assistant."

00:05:04   And guess what, in iOS 11, that's gonna be there.

00:05:07   The fact that they completely redid iCloud,

00:05:12   not only iCloud family plans,

00:05:14   which were a big pain point for a lot of people,

00:05:17   but file sharing is now going to be a thing in iOS 11,

00:05:21   and file sharing with what it looks like,

00:05:23   and again, it's still a beta,

00:05:24   so obviously things can change,

00:05:26   but based on Apple's documentation,

00:05:27   it looks like it's gonna be almost as full-featured

00:05:29   as Dropbox, where you can just drop people links,

00:05:33   and not just from Apple apps, but for anything,

00:05:36   for a photo or a video or a document.

00:05:38   And you might even be able to use collaboration

00:05:41   if the apps support it.

00:05:42   And again, not just Apple apps,

00:05:44   but we could be getting to a point

00:05:46   where you can collaborate on a Procreate document.

00:05:49   And it's not there yet, but the screenshot markup thing,

00:05:52   which I guess most people aren't really gonna care about,

00:05:55   but you and me and quite a few other people, I think,

00:05:58   and pretty much any writer on the face of this earth

00:06:00   that writes about technology,

00:06:01   marking up screenshots is a pretty big deal.

00:06:05   - I, you know what, that's one of my very favorite features

00:06:08   that they've added because some of these are like ones

00:06:12   that are like, hey, when are we gonna be able to have

00:06:16   like Dropbox integration at a system level, right?

00:06:20   So that's what the Files app does.

00:06:21   And there is a, to, you know,

00:06:25   belabor the term finally, right?

00:06:28   It's like we have everybody who uses Dropbox

00:06:32   or has like a team-based system that uses Dropbox

00:06:35   has been sort of hoping for this every single year.

00:06:40   And so there's a finally aspect to that.

00:06:42   The screenshot thing though to me

00:06:44   is one of my favorite features because it's like

00:06:46   the way screenshots worked up until iOS 11,

00:06:50   it's not like anybody was really complaining about it.

00:06:53   It's like okay, you hit these two buttons

00:06:55   and you get an image of the screen in your photo roll,

00:06:59   and then you can do what you want to with it.

00:07:01   But the way that this works is, it's really fantastic.

00:07:06   And it's very, very obvious that internally to Apple,

00:07:09   they obviously take a lot of screenshots

00:07:11   for like bug reports or UI type things.

00:07:16   And it's so great.

00:07:18   It's super, I don't know.

00:07:22   It's like nothing that people were asking for,

00:07:25   but it's obviously very, very thoughtful.

00:07:27   - It reminds me of, speaking of Craig and Phil,

00:07:30   what Craig and Phil were talking about with High Sierra

00:07:32   and the focus on, you know, oh, we need to, you know,

00:07:35   we need to release something that's not just about snazzy

00:07:38   new features, but also that makes

00:07:40   the operating system better.

00:07:42   And there's a lot of that stuff in iOS 11 too,

00:07:44   where they're just these, a lot of little tiny,

00:07:47   very smart changes that maybe people weren't clamoring for,

00:07:51   but it was always like a back of your mind

00:07:53   sort of thing, right?

00:07:55   The fact that, here's a good one

00:07:57   that I haven't really seen a lot of people pick up on yet,

00:08:00   portrait mode is better, which is obviously a good thing.

00:08:04   It's been in beta for the last year,

00:08:05   and obviously it would get better software-wise

00:08:08   as Apple figured it out.

00:08:09   But in addition to that,

00:08:11   the way that they've made portrait mode better

00:08:13   with the Depth Map API is really smart

00:08:17   in that not only can third-party apps

00:08:19   now take advantage of depth data

00:08:21   and use it not just to blur out the backgrounds

00:08:24   of their images, but they can use it to color isolate

00:08:27   and do other really, really smart and interesting things.

00:08:30   But portrait mode now because of that API

00:08:33   and because of the new image codec,

00:08:35   which by the way is a whole nother cool thing

00:08:37   that just kind of popped out of nowhere.

00:08:39   With the image codec, portrait mode is no longer,

00:08:42   there's no longer the option where you like,

00:08:44   you either have to save the portrait mode photo

00:08:46   or you have to save the no portrait mode photo.

00:08:49   it's just one photo with metadata.

00:08:52   And so you can toggle it on or off at will.

00:08:55   So you can have the portrait mode photo

00:08:57   or you can not have the portrait mode photo.

00:08:58   And what that tells me is not only do they have that,

00:09:02   but it looks like they might be building an implementation

00:09:05   so in the future, you might be able

00:09:07   to alter portrait mode photos.

00:09:10   What was the, was it the Luma, not the Lumu, Luma,

00:09:15   the camera that allowed you to--

00:09:18   - Yeah, I know you.

00:09:18   - Yeah, yeah, yeah, that camera that has vanished

00:09:21   from my brain because it's no longer important.

00:09:23   Well, apparently it looks like you might be able to do

00:09:26   something like that with portrait mode photos,

00:09:28   change what's in focus and change how the things look.

00:09:31   And again, that stuff that's not there yet,

00:09:34   but all of these sort of baseline features have been built

00:09:38   that it really, it gets me really excited

00:09:41   for the future of iOS in a way that I have not been excited

00:09:45   in quite a long time.

00:09:47   It shows me that they're thinking not just, you know,

00:09:50   what's the next feature that we have to do in six months,

00:09:53   but what is our operating system and our feature set

00:09:56   going to look like five years down the road?

00:09:58   What are our photos gonna look like

00:09:59   five years down the road?

00:10:00   It's really exciting.

00:10:02   - Yeah, very much so.

00:10:03   For anybody who isn't as reckless as we are

00:10:06   and already has the iOS 11 beta,

00:10:09   but what happens when you take a screenshot on iOS 11

00:10:12   is as soon as you take the screenshot,

00:10:15   instead of going back to where you are,

00:10:17   you get a little floating thing in the lower left corner

00:10:20   that is the screenshot.

00:10:22   And it's sort of like a temporary doc type thing.

00:10:26   And you can tap it and you can immediately annotate it

00:10:31   with the arrow tool and the other,

00:10:34   what do they call them, markup tools.

00:10:37   So you can circle the thing that you wanna point to

00:10:39   or if you just want the whole screen

00:10:41   and then you can immediately send it to somebody.

00:10:43   And then after you send it, you can just be like,

00:10:45   now throw it away.

00:10:46   So that your photo roll isn't necessarily filled up

00:10:50   with all of these screenshots,

00:10:52   that all you wanted to do is take the screenshot,

00:10:55   send it to the developer of the app,

00:10:58   like if you're testing a beta or something like that.

00:11:01   And then you don't want it forever.

00:11:04   There's no longer like a, I have to go back and remember

00:11:07   to delete a bunch of screenshots step.

00:11:10   - Yeah, or even-- - But if you want to just

00:11:11   save it to your photo roll, you can do that too.

00:11:14   - Yeah, what I love about this, again,

00:11:17   it's a really smart feature,

00:11:20   and I appreciate that they're kind of like,

00:11:22   yeah, we recognize that people tend to have

00:11:25   legions of screenshots cluttering up their photos library.

00:11:30   What I find really awesome as somebody

00:11:33   who takes a lot of screenshots is that often I will take

00:11:37   20, 30, 40 screenshots in a 10 minute period

00:11:40   because I'm marking up a how-to, right?

00:11:42   I wanna show the steps, I wanna show how that all works.

00:11:45   And usually my workflow is take all of the screenshots,

00:11:50   write the article, and then like four hours

00:11:52   after I've taken the screenshot,

00:11:54   go back and try and remember which screenshot

00:11:56   went with which step and pull it open in napkin

00:11:59   or another third-party annotation app

00:12:01   and put the arrows and the loops that focus.

00:12:06   And now, with the markup tools,

00:12:07   there's a loop built right in there.

00:12:09   So all I have to do when I take the screenshot is tap this and then immediately air drop

00:12:14   it to my phone or air drop it to my computer and then I never have to.

00:12:18   And then I'm just like, "All right, that's the screenshot I want."

00:12:21   And I've already cropped it to the appropriate information so I don't have to worry about

00:12:25   that.

00:12:26   And then I don't have to save it on my phone because it's immediately on my computer where

00:12:29   I can upload it to iMore.

00:12:31   Everything's fantastic.

00:12:33   And that's pretty awesome.

00:12:34   And then the other thing that I really wanted to mention really quickly about screenshots

00:12:39   is that you don't have to go through the annotation process if you really just want to take a

00:12:43   lot of screenshots, like for whatever reason if you're taking a bunch of things.

00:12:47   If you take three or four in succession, it'll pile up on your screen for a limited amount

00:12:53   of time, something like two minutes, I think.

00:12:56   And then if you don't do anything with them, they'll automatically, it'll go away from

00:13:01   your screen and they'll automatically be saved to photos.

00:13:04   But you can also, if you don't want it hovering on your screen while you're doing other things,

00:13:08   you can immediately swipe left to swipe them off the screen, just like you swipe the slide-over

00:13:13   panel away in iOS 11 on the iPad, and they just get autosaved.

00:13:17   And it's just like, you can deal with those later.

00:13:19   So it's just all these little smart gestures and features for, again, a feature that probably

00:13:25   only 10% of the install base is going to use, but it's great.

00:13:29   It's such a helpful feature for the 10% to do.

00:13:33   Right. It's so much better than having them just be dumb images that are in your photo roll.

00:13:40   Yep.

00:13:40   It really is. And it's exactly the sort of thing. It, to me, is a very appley feature where it's like,

00:13:48   "Hey, we're taking a lot of screenshots. We know that, you know, like you said, probably like 10%

00:13:53   it's like the power users, you know, the beta tester type audience. But they take a lot of them and they're obviously not

00:14:00   Photos, you know, they're they're very different

00:14:03   They're a very different thing than the photos you take when you're out

00:14:07   Out and about in your daily life and you're like, oh, here's an interesting thing in my real life

00:14:13   I screenshot a totally different thing

00:14:14   It should be treated as a different thing and now the system treats it as a different thing and it's it's really really nice

00:14:20   Yeah, you know

00:14:21   I think this is a this was their compromise from all the people filing radars asking for a screenshots album

00:14:29   which by the way we also have now.

00:14:32   - Yeah.

00:14:32   - So, you know, just a little--

00:14:34   - You know what, the gist, the entirety of this podcast

00:14:37   is going to be--

00:14:38   - Just us talking. - Temptation to it.

00:14:40   No, temptation to install iOS 11 on all of your devices,

00:14:43   even though I refuse to, I have so far refused to install it

00:14:48   on my actual day-to-day carry iPhone.

00:14:50   - Really?

00:14:52   - It's tempting, it's very tempting.

00:14:54   Never install beta one on your phone.

00:14:58   - No. - That's my role.

00:14:59   - Unless you're me, but really don't.

00:15:01   (laughing)

00:15:02   Yeah, I only did it

00:15:04   because I did not bring a second iPhone with me

00:15:06   because I was a stupid person.

00:15:08   Yeah, I came straight from a roller derby tournament.

00:15:11   So I had limited packing space and I'm like,

00:15:14   "Do I really want like $10,000 worth of electronics

00:15:18   sitting in our locker room?"

00:15:19   You know, there's like, ugh.

00:15:21   - So I use an app called Itta, I-T-A,

00:15:27   and it's like a little to-do list app.

00:15:31   And the only thing I really use the app for

00:15:33   is I have a list called Packing List

00:15:36   for when I go on a trip.

00:15:37   And it's everything I wanna take every time I travel.

00:15:41   And then once I leave the house,

00:15:43   I can reset the list and say, uncheck all the items.

00:15:46   And then the next time I open the list,

00:15:47   they're all unchecked.

00:15:49   And some of the items are only applicable on certain trips.

00:15:53   Like it'll say, like, do you have your passport?

00:15:55   Well, obviously, if I'm going to California,

00:15:58   I don't need my passport.

00:15:59   So it doesn't matter.

00:16:01   But if I am going overseas, you know, wanna have it.

00:16:04   - Probably important. - So I have an item

00:16:05   on that list which is extra iPhone for iOS beta,

00:16:09   which is really only for WWDC.

00:16:12   - Yep, yep. (laughs)

00:16:14   It's the break glass in case of iPhone OS.

00:16:18   - Right, but if you just take an extra old iPhone,

00:16:21   it doesn't really weigh you down.

00:16:22   - No. - It's not like you're weighed

00:16:23   with pounds and pounds of extra material.

00:16:27   - No, exactly.

00:16:28   And with the iPad, it was, you know,

00:16:30   I'm not gonna bring two iPads, but eh, it's fine.

00:16:34   That's why I have a MacBook Pro now,

00:16:36   so I don't have to worry about my iPad

00:16:38   being completely bricked.

00:16:39   - So, all right, let me take a break.

00:16:43   I'll take a break and thank our first sponsor,

00:16:44   and I'll ask you whether or not you have a new iPad yet.

00:16:48   That'll be my topic when I get back.

00:16:49   But first I wanna tell you

00:16:50   about our good friends at Fracture.

00:16:52   Fracture is the photo decor company.

00:16:54   You send Fracture your photos.

00:16:56   You take 'em with your iPhone or your iPad

00:16:58   or whatever camera you want, send 'em to Fracture.

00:17:01   They print them directly on glass.

00:17:05   I don't know how they do it,

00:17:06   but it's not like a piece of paper glued to glass.

00:17:08   Somehow they print photos directly on glass,

00:17:11   and then they mail it to you,

00:17:13   and the thing that they mailed to you

00:17:15   is ready to hang on a wall or prop on your desk,

00:17:18   whatever you want.

00:17:19   It's very clever packaging and backing

00:17:22   where it's all ready to go.

00:17:25   One of my favorite things about this,

00:17:26   and these guys have been sponsoring the show

00:17:29   for a long time,

00:17:30   but recently people have started,

00:17:31   when they get their fractures,

00:17:33   they start tweeting me.

00:17:34   They're like @GruberMe on Twitter

00:17:36   with a picture of their fracture.

00:17:38   And they're some of the most amazing pictures

00:17:40   I've ever seen.

00:17:42   There was somebody, I forget who it was,

00:17:43   somebody who, obviously, whoever you are,

00:17:45   I love you, thank you for listening to the show,

00:17:47   but somebody was at Yosemite National Park

00:17:50   and took an amazing picture,

00:17:52   got it printed on a huge fracture,

00:17:55   like the big 27-inch type thing,

00:17:58   and they took a picture of it on their wall,

00:18:00   and it's beautiful.

00:18:01   And I'm like, "Did you take that with your iPhone?"

00:18:02   And they were like, "Yeah."

00:18:03   And I'm like, "A, that is amazing

00:18:06   "that you took that picture with a phone,

00:18:08   "and it looks so good.

00:18:09   "And B, wow, the fracture print looks amazing."

00:18:13   It's such a great thing to do with your photos.

00:18:18   I'm telling you right now, digital photography has,

00:18:23   nobody wants to go back to film.

00:18:26   It is so much better because everybody takes

00:18:28   so many more pictures, and more pictures

00:18:30   are better than fewer pictures.

00:18:32   But the one thing we've lost is that having all

00:18:36   of your pictures just on a little four inch phone

00:18:40   is nowhere near as cool as having your best photos

00:18:43   printed really big and hang them on a wall

00:18:45   for everybody to see.

00:18:47   So take your best pictures, get them printed on a fracture.

00:18:49   You will not regret it.

00:18:51   Here's where you go to find out more.

00:18:52   Go to their website.

00:18:53   It's fractureme.com.

00:18:56   Fractureme.com/podcast.

00:19:00   And then at the end of the whole process,

00:19:02   when you order your prints,

00:19:04   they will ask you where you heard of them,

00:19:05   and then it's a one-question survey.

00:19:07   Just tell them you heard about it on the talk show,

00:19:09   and they'll know you came from the show.

00:19:12   But anyway, you will never regret getting

00:19:15   as many pictures as you like printed at Fracture.

00:19:17   It's such a great service.

00:19:19   So my thanks to them.

00:19:20   All right, iPad Pro, do you have one yet?

00:19:24   - Yes, I do.

00:19:25   Yes, I do.

00:19:26   - What size?

00:19:28   - The 10.5.

00:19:29   I'm holding it in my hands right now, actually.

00:19:31   - What color?

00:19:32   - Space gray this time.

00:19:34   - I love the space gray.

00:19:36   You know what?

00:19:37   I would have ordered two.

00:19:38   We're actually traveling soon.

00:19:39   We've got like a family wedding

00:19:41   and we've got a vacation coming up.

00:19:42   And it's like by the time we got back from WWDC,

00:19:45   the goddamn things were back ordered.

00:19:47   (laughs)

00:19:47   - No!

00:19:48   - No, they really are.

00:19:49   Their delivery date was actually like,

00:19:52   we're not even gonna be home.

00:19:54   So it's like, ah shit, what are we gonna do?

00:19:56   But I think it's not surprising to me

00:20:00   that they're back ordered already

00:20:02   because these are terrific.

00:20:04   So I do have a review unit from Apple.

00:20:06   So it's not like I'm iPad Pro-less.

00:20:08   - You're not bereft, yeah.

00:20:10   - Right.

00:20:11   I cannot believe how good a device this is.

00:20:15   And I say this as somebody who is the,

00:20:20   if you said to me, hey, iPhone, iPad, Mac,

00:20:25   we're gonna take one of them away from you forever,

00:20:28   which one do you want, you'll never use again,

00:20:30   I would immediately say iPad.

00:20:31   Like just take away, leave me my phone

00:20:34   and leave me my Mac and I'll be fine.

00:20:37   Like I'm not an iPad person.

00:20:39   But that said, I think this might be the greatest device

00:20:43   Apple's ever made.

00:20:45   - Yeah.

00:20:46   - You know what I mean?

00:20:46   Like I'm not the biggest fan of the iPad as a platform,

00:20:50   but in terms of Apple doing Apple-y things,

00:20:53   that the new iPad Pro is absolutely positively amazing.

00:20:58   - I 100% agree.

00:21:00   - So I'm fascinated though to hear your perspective

00:21:04   as an avid illustrator.

00:21:07   And with the pencil already, in my opinion,

00:21:10   being the best stylus in the consumer space

00:21:14   that you could buy, the difference on the new iPad Pro

00:21:19   with this ProMotion 120 hertz refresh rate,

00:21:23   it's astounding.

00:21:25   It almost feels like with the first iPad Pro

00:21:30   and when the pencil first came out,

00:21:33   it was like, wow, this is the best stylus I've ever used.

00:21:36   with the new iPad Pro and the exact same pencil,

00:21:39   there is this moment of like,

00:21:41   wait, am I actually screwing up

00:21:43   and marking the screen with a real marker?

00:21:46   (Brianna laughs)

00:21:47   - Yeah, yeah.

00:21:49   - There really was this,

00:21:52   and it's funny because I take better care

00:21:54   of a review unit from Apple than I do my own hardware.

00:21:57   You know what I mean?

00:21:58   If I own it and I screw it up,

00:22:00   it's like, well, that's my own thing.

00:22:01   Whereas I wanna make sure

00:22:03   that when I mail these review units back to Apple,

00:22:05   pristine. And I don't even know why because I don't even think they would care. You know

00:22:09   what I mean? Like, what are they doing with the return? I really do feel though that with

00:22:14   the new pencil, it's like if you just took a Sharpie and started like writing on the

00:22:19   screen, it would look exactly the same and have the same response rate. It is...

00:22:26   It's wacky. It's wacky. The way I was debating drawing a comic for ProMotion the same way

00:22:34   that I did for the pencil review.

00:22:37   And I decided against it in part because of time.

00:22:39   But one of the first panels I was doing is I'm like,

00:22:43   "All right, everybody take into their minds,

00:22:45   remember the first time that you as a person

00:22:48   got to use like a really nice pen,

00:22:51   as opposed to like the cruddy Bic pens,

00:22:54   where you have to press down to get the ink to,

00:22:56   and sometimes the ink doesn't work,

00:22:57   and then you get ahold of like a space pen

00:22:59   or a really high-end ink pen.

00:23:02   And when you put the pen to paper, the ink flows out so fast that it startles you a bit at first.

00:23:08   Like you mess up and your letters aren't quite as well formed or you blot

00:23:14   because you're just not used to that kind of performance.

00:23:17   You're not used to that like, "Oh, all this ink is now right here."

00:23:21   That's how drawing with promotion feels to me.

00:23:25   where it's like suddenly the ink is almost there faster than I have the capacity, the brain power,

00:23:34   or the training to draw with it. And you adjust with it, but it's a very, very unnerving

00:23:41   experience at first because you've, you know, especially, I mean, I felt a little bit that way

00:23:46   when I got the original pencil, but I'd been using Wacoms for years, right, where you kind of know

00:23:52   what good drawing on screens feels like versus like bad iPad drawing on screens.

00:23:58   And this just doesn't, you're right, it doesn't feel, it doesn't mentally feel like drawing

00:24:03   on a screen.

00:24:04   Obviously it's still a screen and they haven't figured out the magical wizardry yet to make

00:24:08   the tip feel like it's drawing on paper.

00:24:10   Although I am convinced that there's some kind of slight magic, you know, voodoo going

00:24:15   on because I do think the screen's a little bit tackier than the previous version of iPad

00:24:19   Pro.

00:24:20   Maybe, yeah, there is something.

00:24:22   Apple says no.

00:24:23   Right.

00:24:24   But I swear, it does feel a little bit, I don't know, maybe it's just promotion tricking my brain.

00:24:29   Right.

00:24:29   It definitely, it feels like there's a slight tackier thing, but regardless of that, it's a

00:24:36   much, much better drawing experience than at this point anything. And I haven't tried the

00:24:41   new Surface Pro yet, which I know has 21 milliseconds of latency as opposed to the

00:24:46   Apple Pencils 20. I'm gonna try and try that out next next week. But I'm I don't know, I think this

00:24:52   might best any digital drawing tool I've used, including a Cintiq.

00:24:56   I think I don't get is I don't get the people who want the pencil to be able to navigate the UI. And

00:25:05   it does still work. Like if you use the pencil in your mail, you can like tap the upper left corner

00:25:11   to go back to your list of mailboxes.

00:25:13   I don't think that should do anything.

00:25:15   I think that touch should be touch,

00:25:17   and the pencil should just be for drawing.

00:25:20   And if you tap the pencil to the screen in a context

00:25:24   where drawing doesn't make any sense,

00:25:25   it shouldn't do anything.

00:25:27   Because I feel like what they should do

00:25:29   is just keep adding more contexts,

00:25:31   where if you tap the pencil to the screen,

00:25:33   you're immediately marking up the thing

00:25:35   that you're looking at.

00:25:36   I just want to draw on the screen with the pencil.

00:25:38   I don't understand why people insisted on having it

00:25:42   so you can tap buttons and stuff with the pencil.

00:25:44   I don't get it.

00:25:46   - So I'm of two minds here because on one hand, yeah,

00:25:49   especially when you look at the iOS 11's

00:25:52   new Instant Markup feature,

00:25:54   where as soon as you go into screenshot mode,

00:25:57   you can draw with it,

00:25:58   or if you tap the pencil to the home screen,

00:26:01   it'll automatically launch you in a notes drawing,

00:26:03   which is pretty cool.

00:26:05   But at the same point, I know people with RSI who have like,

00:26:10   yeah, who are 100% like the pencil is the best tool

00:26:15   I've used for combating my RSI.

00:26:17   And it's really nice to be able to use with a pen.

00:26:21   - So allow me to revise my remarks

00:26:23   and it should be available as an option,

00:26:25   but it should be something you have to turn on

00:26:27   as like an accessibility type thing.

00:26:30   - I'm okay with that, yeah.

00:26:32   - I just don't think by default, it should work as a touch.

00:26:34   I really don't.

00:26:35   And if you want it to, sure, go into settings

00:26:39   and have an option so that you can do it.

00:26:41   And if it helps with your RSI,

00:26:44   I've had my own RSI issues,

00:26:45   so anything that lets you get through that is,

00:26:49   God bless, but I don't think it should be on by default.

00:26:53   - Yeah, my other argument for it,

00:26:56   and again, I think I would be fine

00:26:57   with an accessibility settings,

00:26:58   is as somebody who draws a lot,

00:27:01   Drawing just like anything else is an experience where you're multitasking.

00:27:06   You might be drawing on a canvas, but you might want to bring in some photos for reference or

00:27:11   something like that. And I really do enjoy, in that instance, working with the pencil.

00:27:16   For instance, in Procreate, you can drop colors from a palette into your drawing, or

00:27:24   now you can use drag and drop to drag your photo into the drawing. And if I already have the

00:27:31   the pencil in my hand, sometimes it's a pain to like, go from the pencil to flipping to touch to

00:27:36   going back to the pencil. So like, I get I get the reasoning behind it. But I'm also okay with a with

00:27:43   a switch. I could I could deal with that. As long as it's there somewhere.

00:27:47   I'll tell you what the most telling thing to me was a couple of days ago, I think it was like two

00:27:50   days ago, I went on a mini Twitter rant about the on screen, like, get the app button on that medium

00:28:00   shows up on like, when everybody, when you post like a blog post to Medium now, there's

00:28:05   like this stupid toolbar at the bottom that I hate. But now they put a button above the

00:28:10   toolbar that's like, "Open this in the Medium app." And I don't want to open it in the fucking

00:28:15   Medium app. I want to read it in a web browser where it's already open right now. The article

00:28:20   is right here. I'm reading it. So why are you telling me to open it in the app? And

00:28:24   I know, I know, it's all about engagement. Fuck you, Engagement. I hate engagement. But

00:28:29   But I went on this Twitter rant.

00:28:30   But I was on my phone, and I was so angry about this.

00:28:34   But I wanted to take a screenshot, and it was pure rage that made me want to tweet this.

00:28:43   So I wasn't even thinking logically.

00:28:45   But the easiest way to do it, in my mind-- I was on my phone at the time-- the easiest

00:28:50   way to do it was switch to the iPad Pro.

00:28:54   Open the same thing in the iPad Pro from AirPlay.

00:28:58   it to the Air, which was great and is one of those features that I feel like people

00:29:04   are sort of taking for granted at this point, but is kind of awesome if you have more than

00:29:09   one Apple device, where it's like you're looking at a website on your phone and you want to

00:29:12   look at it on this other device.

00:29:13   I want to get it on this iPad Pro and I want to take a screenshot and immediately just

00:29:18   circle this and make a big angry red arrow with a pencil.

00:29:22   It was so easy.

00:29:24   The easiest way to do it was to switch to the iPad Pro,

00:29:29   open it there, take a screenshot,

00:29:31   and it's right there, ready to be marked up.

00:29:34   And I just tap it, and I can immediately make my angry arrows

00:29:38   and say, fuck you, Medium, I hate this.

00:29:41   What is going on?

00:29:43   And then I'm one sharing sheet away from posting it

00:29:46   to Twitter and embarrassing myself.

00:29:48   But I-- and then I thought afterwards, I was like,

00:29:50   you know what?

00:29:51   That is a real selling point for the iPad Pro and the Pencil,

00:29:54   which is that it actually felt like easier to switch devices

00:29:59   to this thing with the pencil than to do it

00:30:01   on the phone itself or any other way.

00:30:05   Yep.

00:30:06   And now you have ventured into the mindset

00:30:09   of the people who are like, I want

00:30:10   a pencil for the iPhone Plus.

00:30:15   Again, I'm not against.

00:30:16   I could see it.

00:30:16   Yeah.

00:30:18   Obviously, if it didn't make it any thicker or heavier,

00:30:22   If the pencil happened to work on the iPhone,

00:30:25   it wouldn't be worse.

00:30:27   I can kind of see it.

00:30:29   - Oh yeah, no, I can absolutely see it.

00:30:32   And God knows, I've picked up my pencil

00:30:34   before trying to draw on the iPhone

00:30:35   and gotten cranky when it didn't.

00:30:39   I understand why it hasn't happened yet,

00:30:42   but I could also see it happening.

00:30:44   Anyway, I agree with you.

00:30:45   I 100% agree with you. - I used to be a big pencil.

00:30:47   I mean, this'll shock you.

00:30:48   I used to really, when I was in high school and junior high,

00:30:51   I really cared about which brand of pencil I had.

00:30:54   No.

00:30:55   Shocking.

00:30:56   You?

00:30:58   I was a big fan of the Dixon Ticonderoga number two,

00:31:01   which is not--

00:31:03   I don't know if you know anything about pencils,

00:31:04   but Dixon Ticonderogas used to be made in the United States.

00:31:08   And now they're not, and they're nowhere near as good

00:31:10   as they used to be.

00:31:11   They're sort of like some kind of cheap Chinese lumber

00:31:14   or something.

00:31:14   But the old school ones from when

00:31:17   I was in high school in the '80s and '90s were aces.

00:31:21   Like this was a pencil that you could like,

00:31:22   if you whack somebody in the head with it,

00:31:24   it would leave a mark.

00:31:25   It was a real pencil, pencil.

00:31:28   But I used to think when I was in high school

00:31:32   and I used pencils a lot,

00:31:33   I liked a pencil when it was about 2/3 of the way done.

00:31:38   Like it was a better size to me

00:31:40   when you got the pencil,

00:31:43   somewhere around 2/3 to 1/2 of the out of the box size.

00:31:50   And I can't help but think that if they ever

00:31:54   added pencil support for the phone,

00:31:56   I'd kind of want the pencil to be smaller.

00:31:59   Yeah, I don't think that it needs

00:32:01   to be the size of an HB pencil, which

00:32:03   is the size of the current Apple pencil.

00:32:07   But it doesn't also need to be the size

00:32:09   of a teeny tiny stylus.

00:32:11   I think the right feeling to me--

00:32:14   I'm holding a Relay FM a few years ago,

00:32:16   got all of its hosts this beautiful space pen.

00:32:20   And it's a pen that's designed to write in both directions,

00:32:23   and it's probably, I don't know, holding it in front of myself

00:32:26   like, I don't know, four inches, five inches long?

00:32:29   It's just enough to fit comfortably in a hand.

00:32:34   And I feel like that's the right length.

00:32:36   And then you could put it in your butt pocket and your jeans,

00:32:42   you know what I mean, and it wouldn't stick up.

00:32:44   Exactly.

00:32:46   I don't know.

00:32:48   I don't know.

00:32:49   I'm sold on the pencil.

00:32:50   I really do like it, and I'm not even an illustrator,

00:32:53   but I can kind of see it happening

00:32:56   for the phone at some point.

00:32:57   - Oh yeah, no question.

00:33:00   As I said, it's an inevitability.

00:33:03   It just depends.

00:33:04   They need to figure out the right way to sell it.

00:33:07   Because the last thing you need is Apple getting the,

00:33:12   you know, the headline,

00:33:14   "Oh, Apple's trying to compete with the Note,

00:33:16   "the phone that exploded."

00:33:18   And then we just run into issues.

00:33:21   - You know what, there's so many things to talk about,

00:33:24   but it's like they totally glossed over this.

00:33:27   But the notes app in iOS 11 now has,

00:33:32   it's a new, it's a little confusing

00:33:37   because they kept, and I think they did exactly right.

00:33:40   And obviously I'm the co-designer of an iOS notes app

00:33:45   that was abandoned, Vesper.

00:33:47   So I have very strong opinions on the design of a notes app.

00:33:50   I really, really love the way that iOS 11 note app has

00:33:55   evolved, in particular, this new data type of on the fly pencil

00:34:02   illustration in the note.

00:34:07   Now, prior to iOS 11, what you could do is you could say,

00:34:11   add a picture to my note.

00:34:14   And you have to hit the plus button,

00:34:15   And then you'd get a full screen, what would you call it,

00:34:20   canvas, where you could draw.

00:34:22   And you could draw whatever you wanted to.

00:34:24   There were a couple of tools.

00:34:26   You could have a marker or a pencil or a watercolor brush

00:34:31   or whatever you want.

00:34:32   Just wasn't good.

00:34:34   It was a good demo of the pencil support

00:34:37   in terms of the latency and seeing how you draw.

00:34:42   But the actual interface with Notes

00:34:44   wasn't that great because it was so modal.

00:34:47   It was like, yeah, had to go in this one.

00:34:48   You had to go in there or out of there,

00:34:50   and it just wasn't great.

00:34:51   Right.

00:34:52   Whereas now in iOS 11, you're in Notes.

00:34:55   You just make a note, or you're in a note already,

00:34:57   and you're typing.

00:34:58   And whatever you're typing, it's just like a regular note.

00:35:01   And then you just take your pencil and start drawing.

00:35:05   You don't have to add to hit a button or go into a mode.

00:35:08   You just start writing on the screen.

00:35:12   and it makes a little thing,

00:35:15   and then if you want to adjust the size,

00:35:18   it's all you can do is make it taller,

00:35:20   which is perfect, 'cause the thing that I think

00:35:22   is so genius is that it has,

00:35:24   the width is always the full width of the screen.

00:35:27   It's always just adjusting the height.

00:35:29   And so it doesn't try to flow around it

00:35:32   like a half-width image in a word processing program

00:35:37   where the text is supposed to flow around the side.

00:35:40   No, it's just full size in the note, full width, I should say, in the note.

00:35:46   And you just make it taller or shorter if you want, and you just draw.

00:35:49   But the thing that is amazing to me is that it indexes, if it's handwritten words, it

00:35:56   indexes those words and it works.

00:36:00   Really well.

00:36:01   No egg freckles.

00:36:02   My handwriting is atrocious.

00:36:05   I mean, seriously atrocious.

00:36:07   I don't know that there's anybody on the planet who can read it other than me.

00:36:10   I can read it.

00:36:11   I don't know if anybody else can.

00:36:14   And I wrote some stuff, and I wasn't trying to—I was writing in my—just not trying

00:36:20   to be particularly neat, just writing the way I write.

00:36:22   And then I searched for it, and it all—every single word that I wrote came up.

00:36:26   It was amazing.

00:36:27   Well, and on top of that, the fact that it's so quick, it's almost instantaneous OCR,

00:36:34   character recognition for people. But it's really impressive. And the fact that it's

00:36:41   searchable not just notes-wide, but system-wide. So if you write something down from six months

00:36:45   ago, you can theoretically find it.

00:36:47   In Spotlight.

00:36:48   Yeah, in Spotlight.

00:36:50   Yeah. What's the egg freckles joke again? I know it comes from Doonesbury.

00:36:54   It's a Doonesbury-Newton joke, way back.

00:36:59   What was it that the person originally wrote, though?

00:37:01   - What, what?

00:37:02   - Oh God.

00:37:03   - It's like everybody just remembers the egg freckles

00:37:04   and nobody remembers what they actually wrote.

00:37:06   - Yeah, 'cause egg freckles is just so weird.

00:37:09   - And then the other one that everybody remembers

00:37:10   is the Simpsons joke, which was,

00:37:13   the bully wanted to write beat up Nelson,

00:37:20   or no, not Nelson, what's the kid's name, whatever it is,

00:37:23   but instead of beat up whatever the kid's name was,

00:37:25   it said, eat up Martha.

00:37:28   (laughing)

00:37:29   Right?

00:37:30   - Yeah.

00:37:32   Oh, it was Catching On was the original thing

00:37:36   that quote unquote egg freckles turned into.

00:37:38   - Right.

00:37:39   - Oh boy.

00:37:41   Yeah, no, it's quite impressive,

00:37:44   especially considering that OCR,

00:37:47   I reviewed a couple of OCR apps,

00:37:50   handwriting OCR apps last year,

00:37:53   and there's really only one that doesn't suck.

00:37:57   And like three of them are made by the same company.

00:38:01   So I don't know why it's only the one that works.

00:38:03   But I've been kind of clamoring for Apple

00:38:06   to integrate that for ages.

00:38:09   So I'm really happy to see that.

00:38:10   The other big thing in Notes,

00:38:12   which again, it's one of these things

00:38:14   that kind of slid under the radar

00:38:15   because there was just so much,

00:38:17   was the fact that screenshot,

00:38:19   or screenshot that scanning is built in.

00:38:22   OCR scanning is built into the iPad.

00:38:26   And it's easy because it uses AR.

00:38:29   It uses ARKit.

00:38:30   Right, so it's funny.

00:38:34   I've been talking about it on and off on a podcast.

00:38:36   But we just bought a new house a couple months ago.

00:38:39   And most of the paperwork-- and everybody always

00:38:42   says when you buy a house, there's

00:38:44   thousands of sheets of paperwork.

00:38:45   And they're not kidding.

00:38:47   There really is.

00:38:48   But most of it we did online.

00:38:50   And it was e-documents.

00:38:52   And Amy and I were like, oh my god,

00:38:54   can you even imagine what this was like before e-documents?

00:38:56   Because you're like, just click to sign, click to sign,

00:38:59   click to sign, click to sign.

00:39:01   Okay, you're good with this, send it,

00:39:02   and you click a button that says,

00:39:05   I authorized it by clicking this button.

00:39:07   It counts as my signature,

00:39:09   and it's going to the mortgage company

00:39:11   or whatever the hell, wherever the hell these things go.

00:39:14   And in the old days, you had to physically sign it

00:39:17   and send a courier or fax it or something.

00:39:20   But there's still, even today,

00:39:22   there still were a number of documents that had to be physically signed and do it.

00:39:27   I mean, I don't have a fucking fax machine.

00:39:30   I mean, who the hell has a fax machine anymore?

00:39:32   Cool. Yeah, exactly.

00:39:33   So what I would do is I would put my phone over this piece of paper on a table and

00:39:40   try to get the light right and make sure that the phone isn't casting a shadow over

00:39:44   the thing but have it perfectly square over the thing.

00:39:48   So I didn't want it to look like I took a picture of a photo.

00:39:51   I wanted it to look like I scanned the document.

00:39:54   I wanted it to look good.

00:39:56   I'm sure that if I just took it off center

00:40:01   and it didn't matter, it would still count.

00:40:03   But I wanted it to look good.

00:40:04   But now the built-in feature does the right thing

00:40:08   automatically from any angle.

00:40:10   It's crazy.

00:40:12   Absolutely crazy. - While we're talking,

00:40:14   while we were talking, I literally just picked up my iPad

00:40:18   and open the screenshot thing,

00:40:20   and sitting from the desk,

00:40:22   just snapped a picture of an invitation for our wedding,

00:40:26   sitting over on the side of the desk,

00:40:28   propped up at an angle, so I'm not even at,

00:40:31   like, I'm at a 2/3 view here.

00:40:35   It was able to instantly get it within like,

00:40:38   I don't know, half a second.

00:40:40   It's ridiculous.

00:40:43   I'm like, I don't understand.

00:40:46   The ARKit team, really, they have to be given

00:40:51   a huge round of applause.

00:40:53   And the really sad thing is no one's going to appreciate

00:40:57   the genius of what ARKit has put together

00:41:01   and the startup that Apple bought from which it's based.

00:41:06   No one's going to appreciate it for another year or two

00:41:08   until we actually see the stuff paying off.

00:41:12   But screenshots is a really good early example of it.

00:41:16   - A real world one.

00:41:17   - The scanned documents are amazing.

00:41:19   - They are.

00:41:20   - It really looks as good as a photocopy.

00:41:23   Like from a terrific photocopy,

00:41:25   you know, like a high-end photocopier.

00:41:27   It's like as good or better.

00:41:29   And you don't have to aim it at all.

00:41:32   In fact, it looks better if you don't put the camera over it

00:41:35   because you're less likely to get a shadow

00:41:38   over the document.

00:41:38   - Yeah.

00:41:39   - Absolutely crazy.

00:41:41   Like of all the things, you know,

00:41:44   that the narrative of that these devices are replacing

00:41:48   all of consumer electronics,

00:41:50   like they've replaced standalone cameras,

00:41:54   they've replaced tape recorders, you name it.

00:41:59   But the fact that they've replaced fax machines now

00:42:01   is kind of amazing.

00:42:03   - Well, think about how big and bulky

00:42:06   those things used to be, right?

00:42:08   Where it's just, I mean, you had to have what,

00:42:09   a built-in modem and a scanner in one,

00:42:12   and now that's all, that's, yeah.

00:42:14   and a tiny little piece of technology.

00:42:16   Yeah, it's crazy, it really is.

00:42:21   (Dave laughs)

00:42:24   My words are failing me,

00:42:25   because I'm still staring at the screenshot.

00:42:28   - So have you installed iOS 11 on your iPad yet?

00:42:33   - I have.

00:42:34   I did that almost immediately after getting it.

00:42:37   'Cause I'm a stupid, stupid human being.

00:42:39   - No, I was so torn.

00:42:41   I wrote it in my review.

00:42:42   I was very honest.

00:42:43   I never lie on Daring Fireball.

00:42:46   I never lie, period, to tell you the truth.

00:42:48   - Honest, honest, John?

00:42:50   - Just like our president.

00:42:51   (laughing)

00:42:52   - Oh.

00:42:53   - Well, but saying that I never lie,

00:42:55   it sounds like, wow, that's something

00:42:56   that people who lie a lot say.

00:42:58   (laughing)

00:43:00   I actually don't.

00:43:00   It's like, in my adult life,

00:43:03   I've actually, a great way to live your life

00:43:05   is just never lie, and it's kind of liberating.

00:43:09   You just never say anything that's not true.

00:43:11   We'll get back to that when we talk about Tony Fidell and Phil Schiller at the end of

00:43:16   the show.

00:43:18   I got the review unit and they give you a little thing you have to sign.

00:43:25   Monday is the embargo.

00:43:27   And technically you're not supposed to do something like install a developer beta on

00:43:33   a review unit.

00:43:34   And you're certainly not supposed to review the thing.

00:43:38   They don't tell you that.

00:43:39   They don't say like, whatever you do,

00:43:40   don't install iOS 11 on this.

00:43:43   But it's kind of understood.

00:43:45   And I also feel like there's a certain fairness.

00:43:49   If you go to the Apple Store today

00:43:55   and buy the new iPad Pro,

00:43:57   you get it and it's running iOS 10.3.

00:44:00   And therefore, that is what I,

00:44:02   as somebody reviewing the product,

00:44:04   should be telling you about.

00:44:08   But that said, after seeing iOS 11 last week,

00:44:13   it was killing me.

00:44:15   Amy and I were flying back east from San Francisco

00:44:20   last Friday, and my device for the plane,

00:44:25   for the transcontinental flight,

00:44:27   was the review unit iPad Pro.

00:44:30   And I kept swiping up from the,

00:44:32   I was already in the habit,

00:44:34   just from being in the hands-on area,

00:44:36   I was already trying to use,

00:44:38   I'm like, oh my God, this is insane.

00:44:41   I cannot, I have to install iOS 11 on this.

00:44:46   I've already used this.

00:44:47   I haven't owned a device with this operating system yet,

00:44:50   and I already have the habit of trying to use it

00:44:52   to get iMessages up.

00:44:55   So yeah, and once I did, it was like, oh my God.

00:45:00   And I wrote my, it's one of my favorite lines

00:45:02   I've written in a long time,

00:45:03   it. I just feel like one of my hands has been untied from behind my back. I feel like for the

00:45:10   last couple of years, every time I've used an iPad in any context, whether I'm reviewing a new one

00:45:16   or just using my own personal iPad, I have felt like I've had a hand tied behind my back. This

00:45:23   device can obviously do more than I'm doing with it in terms of, "Hey, I'm watching a baseball game,

00:45:30   but I'm getting text messages from my friend,

00:45:33   why isn't it easier to do both of these?

00:45:36   Keep the video up and have iMessages on screen for a moment.

00:45:41   Show me my tweets too. Why can't I look at all three?

00:45:45   It has felt like I've been hamstrung and all of a sudden,

00:45:50   once I have the Beta on it,

00:45:52   I've never felt like that before.

00:45:54   Like we're putting the iOS 11 Beta as buggy as it is,

00:46:00   and it is as buggy as the first developer beta should be.

00:46:05   - Should be.

00:46:06   - Right, it still feels like I'm 10 times more productive.

00:46:09   - Yeah, I completely agree, and it's why that I,

00:46:13   normally I do not install developer betas

00:46:17   on brand new hardware, because you have that little bit

00:46:21   where the brand new hardware is so fast and so delightful

00:46:24   'cause you haven't put all your crud on it yet.

00:46:27   But no, I immediately went to it

00:46:29   because I spent the entire week last week switching between our review unit of the 10.5

00:46:34   and my 9.7, which of course had iOS 11 on it the second that I was able to install it,

00:46:40   and just switching between the two of those.

00:46:43   Again, like you said, I kept on going to the 10.5 and trying to do things that I had gotten

00:46:48   instantly comfortable with on the 9.7 and being unable to and being very disappointed

00:46:55   by it.

00:46:56   And on top of that, I really wanted to see just like the multitasking features work pretty

00:47:02   well on the 9.7.

00:47:04   Again, even as a developer beta, they work with decent speed, but I really wanted to

00:47:10   see the way that the animations looked and everything else with the promotion technology,

00:47:15   because we haven't even really talked about that.

00:47:21   I also feel that--

00:47:24   and I kind of knew that it wasn't coming,

00:47:27   or at least I really didn't think it was coming.

00:47:29   But like a week before WWDC, I wrote, hey,

00:47:32   why not put a trackpad on a smart keyboard cover?

00:47:35   And I kind of--

00:47:36   I didn't write it--

00:47:37   and again, if anybody thought I was writing it

00:47:39   because I wink, wink, nudge, nudge, knew that it was coming,

00:47:42   it was the opposite.

00:47:43   I kind of knew that it wasn't coming,

00:47:45   but I still kind of wish that it had a trackpad for text editing.

00:47:50   But I will say this, that along the lines of that, where the logic of it is, hey, if

00:47:55   you have the iPad on the smart keyboard cover and your hands are in that, you know, on the

00:48:00   home rows key, your hands are already in this position.

00:48:04   Reaching up and touching the screen is sort of breaking that thing.

00:48:08   But doing the thing where you just go to the bottom of the screen and swipe up to get the

00:48:14   multitasking doc, your fingers are right there already.

00:48:19   It is super convenient.

00:48:21   And so in terms of that whole argument of, hey, if you're in laptop mode, poking at the

00:48:28   screen is sort of ergonomically problematic, the dock in iPad iOS is actually like the

00:48:38   least problematic motion you can make because your finger, it's like the quickest thing

00:48:44   you could possibly do on the screen when you're on the keyboard.

00:48:47   - Yeah, well, and the beauty of it,

00:48:50   again, speaking of teams to give hats off to,

00:48:55   the Springboard team and the multitasking team

00:48:58   really did a number and a way of figuring out a way

00:49:03   to integrate all of this while still making all of it

00:49:08   feel like a natural progression from what has come before.

00:49:13   We've already gotten comfortable with the idea

00:49:15   of swiping up for control center, right?

00:49:17   So it's just, now it's just the difference

00:49:19   between a little swipe enters the dock,

00:49:21   and then if you continue swiping,

00:49:22   this is the beautiful thing, right?

00:49:24   If you continue that swiping, you get the new app switcher,

00:49:27   which is basically control center on steroids,

00:49:30   which, you know, with custom control center

00:49:33   is something that I know a lot of people

00:49:34   have been asking for for a while,

00:49:35   and it really comes into its own here.

00:49:38   But it just, it feels so natural to be like,

00:49:42   yeah, I'm typing, oh, I wanna pull up an app.

00:49:45   All I have to do is, as you said, move like half an inch,

00:49:49   tap and hold the app, wait until it starts,

00:49:51   it pulls forward the same way that like tvOS

00:49:54   has the parallax shimmer to it.

00:49:59   And then you literally just have to like toss it

00:50:01   right up on the left or the right side of the screen.

00:50:03   You don't even have to like move it all the way

00:50:05   to the top of the screen and then position it.

00:50:08   Like it becomes a very quick flick and switch

00:50:12   more quickly than you'd anticipate.

00:50:14   - Right, you just kind of vaguely gesture

00:50:20   in the direction you want it to go,

00:50:21   and it just goes there.

00:50:23   And it just obeys your commands.

00:50:26   - Yeah, yeah, which is awesome.

00:50:28   - I think it's a really, really clever design.

00:50:31   I really like it.

00:50:32   And it's funny to me how visually

00:50:36   it pays homage to the macOS dock.

00:50:41   But to me, interaction-wise, it's very different,

00:50:45   because the macOS doc doesn't really--

00:50:49   you either have it on screen all the time or you don't,

00:50:51   but it doesn't--

00:50:53   it's not like--

00:50:54   I don't know.

00:50:54   It's not reactive in the same way.

00:50:57   Yeah.

00:50:58   And the way that you drag apps out of it is--

00:51:02   and you were saying that we didn't talk about promotion

00:51:05   yet, but it's uncanny the way that you just

00:51:11   tap the icon for messages and quick flick it out

00:51:14   in the way that the icon turns into the window

00:51:18   that you're going to have on the side

00:51:19   at 100% fidelity as you flick your finger.

00:51:26   - Ah, it feels, so you remember the initial,

00:51:31   when Steve Jobs is talking about how everything just feels,

00:51:36   I'm not sure if he used the word lickable,

00:51:38   But when he was talking about just the reaction of touching the screen and

00:51:43   being excited about being able to manipulate objects,

00:51:46   I get the same kind of giddiness that I got from initially playing with iOS,

00:51:50   playing with the multitasking.

00:51:51   Like just, I will sometimes when I'm bored, I've found myself, or

00:51:56   not even bored, but waiting for something to render.

00:51:58   I find myself just flicking apps around and going from slide over and

00:52:02   pulling it down.

00:52:03   Just it's a comfortable movement.

00:52:06   It's really enjoyable.

00:52:07   And as you said, on promotion, or on the 10.5 and the 12.9 with promotion, it just, it flies.

00:52:14   It doesn't, it feels like there is no latency whatsoever because there isn't between your

00:52:20   touch interface and what the screen is rendering.

00:52:24   They're inputting touch from the user at 120 hertz, and then they're exporting it and showing

00:52:29   it to you at 120 hertz.

00:52:31   So whatever you're doing, it's literally what the screen is doing.

00:52:34   I remember when Mac OS X was in beta, or even when 10.00 officially shipped back in 2002,

00:52:44   and I worked at Barebones Software, and my friend Jim Correa was one of the engineers there,

00:52:50   and how he works at the Omni Group.

00:52:52   But when the betas came out, and it was so slow, it looked so good,

00:52:57   and I think that's where Jobs said it's lickable.

00:52:59   It was describing that initial Aqua interface, but it was so slow.

00:53:03   And I remember Jim, we'd get like a beta and we'd put it on a high-end Mac, and we'd have a lot of icons in a finder view.

00:53:11   And Jim would just sort of drag the scroll bar up and down real fast. Like, just go up, down, up, down, up, down.

00:53:17   And you could see the shearing on screen, and Jim would just be like, "Ah, that's garbage."

00:53:22   Because you could just see it. But you'd go real fast, and it's like, well, of course, at this fidelity with this super, you know,

00:53:31   you know, thousand color icons,

00:53:36   of course it's not gonna be able to scroll in real time.

00:53:39   Whereas now, it's not even the indirect motion

00:53:43   of like scrolling a mouse bar up and down,

00:53:45   but literally your finger going up and down,

00:53:47   and just sitting there flicking the screen

00:53:49   up and down, up and down, up and down,

00:53:51   and having it track your finger 100%,

00:53:54   just like you're dragging a piece of paper on a desk

00:53:56   is kind of amazing.

00:53:58   - It's such a nice feeling.

00:54:01   It's such a, it is confusing your brain

00:54:05   in a way that's kind of wonderful.

00:54:07   Because your brain, like it feels like

00:54:09   you're tactilely moving something.

00:54:11   Despite the fact that it's just glass.

00:54:13   You know, I'm not moving a damn thing

00:54:16   except for pixels on a screen.

00:54:18   But dragging, like I'm just swiping my home screens

00:54:21   back and forth with four fingers right now.

00:54:24   And it just, it feels like I'm moving things.

00:54:26   My brain is thoroughly convinced.

00:54:28   - It's nice.

00:54:29   I overuse that word, I think, when I review recent Apple products, but I don't know what

00:54:35   other word to use, that they're making things nicer.

00:54:43   It's not really a tech thing.

00:54:45   There is serious engineering that goes into it and the integration between the hardware

00:54:51   to have the screen physically, technically be able to be driven at 120 hertz and to have

00:54:57   the software in the OS to actually do it and to do the really cool thing which is dynamically

00:55:05   adjust the refresh rate so that if you're watching a 24 frames per second video it'll

00:55:09   actually only update at 24 hertz because you don't need the other one.

00:55:15   In fact, in addition to saving battery, it actually makes the video look better because

00:55:19   you're not doing a pull down and getting interstitial frames that are interpolated.

00:55:24   Yeah, I'm gonna pause you there because there's some really, really cool tech in that regard.

00:55:30   Have you ever, have you done the demo yet where you put a movie side by side with scrolling?

00:55:35   No, I haven't really.

00:55:37   So this is where it gets really cool, right? So the way that you, like you normally watch a

00:55:43   movie when you're watching at a screen that doesn't do a 3D2 pull down, when it when it

00:55:47   It divides equally.

00:55:49   You normally watch a movie at somewhere between 48 hertz and I think 72 or maybe 96.

00:55:57   And it divides equally down to 24 frames a second because your eyes get like kind of

00:56:02   messed up if you just look at 24 screen refreshes.

00:56:08   So what promotion does when you have video next to something that's 120 hertz, unlike

00:56:14   Like the televisions, right, where if you show slow-mo mode, right, you show sports

00:56:19   mode, it just makes the video look really super high speed unless you manually change

00:56:23   it.

00:56:24   Promotion, when you have two things side by side, it intelligently downsamples the video.

00:56:31   It knows that it's video that you're watching, and it says, "Okay, this we're going to down

00:56:36   sample to sets of 24, essentially.

00:56:38   We're going to show you, you know, an image five times in a second so that your brain

00:56:43   thinks it's 24 frames a second, even though we're refreshing the screen 120 times. But

00:56:48   on the right side, where you're drawing, we're going to give you the full 120 screen refreshes.

00:56:54   So you can watch a movie or like use it as reference and it looks like a movie. But on

00:57:00   the right side, whether you're scrolling or drawing, it's as fast as the screen can allow

00:57:06   for so you have no latency and it's mind boggling.

00:57:10   It's crazy. It's like I said 20 minutes ago. It's the best. I think it's the best device

00:57:15   Apple's ever made. I really do, hands down. And it's not my favorite. It's not my favorite

00:57:20   Apple device ever made. But I do think it's the best. And I feel like that's sort of putting

00:57:28   on your big boy pants to be a reviewer is to be able to separate what you personally

00:57:34   prefer versus appreciating that this is the best thing

00:57:37   Apple, this is the most Apple-y thing Apple's ever made.

00:57:40   - Yeah, it's, well, exactly.

00:57:43   Even if you're not an iPad person,

00:57:45   even if you are a MacBook Pro person or an iPhone person,

00:57:48   yeah, and that's okay.

00:57:50   But what this should, like, the reason why the iPad,

00:57:53   the 10.5 excites me and the 12.9 excite me

00:57:55   as much as they do is, yeah, I'm an artist

00:57:58   and I really love the iPad form factor.

00:58:00   I love, you know, a lot of things about it,

00:58:03   But I also, you know, I care about my MacBook Pro very much.

00:58:06   I really enjoy using it on a day to day,

00:58:08   and there are things that make more sense on a Mac.

00:58:10   But what excites me is that if Apple is developing

00:58:14   all of this technology, the same, I mean,

00:58:17   you look back to what happened with Retina, right?

00:58:19   Where, when the iPhone, was it the 5

00:58:22   that came out with Retina?

00:58:24   - No, iPhone 4. - Or the 4?

00:58:26   4, 4, 4, 4, that's right.

00:58:28   The iPhone 4 came out with Retina,

00:58:30   And Retina is something, when it first came out,

00:58:33   there was one person in my life

00:58:35   who was really excited about Retina.

00:58:37   And that was my boyfriend at the time

00:58:39   who was a comics artist.

00:58:40   And he's like, "I have been asking for this for two years."

00:58:43   And I'm looking at him and I'm like,

00:58:44   "I don't really get why it's better until you see it."

00:58:47   And then you're like, "Oh, this is amazing."

00:58:51   That's how I feel about all of this tech

00:58:53   is that it's all going to filter down into the Mac,

00:58:56   into the iPhone, into whatever Apple decides

00:59:00   to make in the future, whether that be AR goggles

00:59:02   or a car or a car interface

00:59:05   or something we can't even think of.

00:59:07   The fact that Apple is working on technology

00:59:10   that ostensibly, just like that screenshots feature,

00:59:14   you know, consumers were not asking Apple,

00:59:17   you need to make a screen with a higher refresh rate

00:59:19   because most people aren't gonna know what that means.

00:59:23   But Apple is very focused on making devices

00:59:26   that just feel better.

00:59:28   They feel less like screens in front of our hands

00:59:31   and more like physically tangible devices

00:59:34   that are part of our lives.

00:59:36   And that is, that's something that we can take advantage of

00:59:41   across the line, no matter whether you're a Mac person

00:59:43   or an iPhone person or an iPad person or a home pod person,

00:59:46   like this is better for you.

00:59:48   This is a good direction for the company to be going in,

00:59:52   caring about its users and actually seeing all of those

00:59:54   years of work pay off.

00:59:58   Very much so. I was very excited for retina years before it came out. I remember, I've told this

01:00:04   story before but it's worth telling again, where there was like a WWDC, I was like, I don't know,

01:00:09   maybe like 2005, 2006, but it was before the iPhone even existed. But there was a WWDC,

01:00:15   it was probably like 2006, where Apple made a big push on the Mac for what they called at the time

01:00:21   high DPI. And the gist was like, "Hey, stop drawing pixel for pixel icons. Make them like a PDF so

01:00:29   that they can scale." And it was as close as they ever come to saying what they're going to do,

01:00:35   because eventually we're going to make screens that have higher resolution. And I remember,

01:00:39   it was me and Cable Sasser from Panic, and we both got it instantly. And people were like,

01:00:45   "Well, what the hell are you talking about? The Mac's already beautiful." And Cable and I were

01:00:49   like, well, have you ever seen like a laser printer output, how the fonts, when you print

01:00:54   on a laser printer, they look better than they do on screen?

01:00:57   And they're like, yeah, because on the screen there you could see the anti-aliasing.

01:01:00   And we're like, exactly!

01:01:01   Like, imagine a screen that's like a laser printer.

01:01:05   And they're like, well, that's never going to happen.

01:01:06   And we're like, no, no, that's what Apple's telling us is going to happen.

01:01:10   And they're like, no, that's too...

01:01:12   That's not going to happen.

01:01:13   That's too hard.

01:01:14   And they quick, like, do the math.

01:01:16   And they're like, "Well, that would be like, you know,

01:01:17   four million pixels on a screen."

01:01:19   And we're like, "Yeah, that's what they're going to do."

01:01:21   That's what, and we thought it was coming like next year.

01:01:23   We were like, (laughs)

01:01:25   we were like, and famously, I swear, this is true,

01:01:29   like, cable got like panicked to do like,

01:01:32   like all of their apps were retina ready like in 2007,

01:01:36   (laughing)

01:01:37   like six years before the Mac had a retina screen

01:01:40   because it's probably half my fault.

01:01:43   - You knew. - Right.

01:01:44   because we got so excited because there was like

01:01:46   one session at WWDC 2006 that was like,

01:01:50   get ready for high DPI.

01:01:51   All right, let me take a break here.

01:01:54   - What's the hint?

01:01:54   - Let me take a break and thank our next sponsor.

01:01:56   It is our good friends at Warby Parker.

01:01:58   Warby Parker thinks glasses, like eyeglasses,

01:02:01   should not cost as much as your iPhone.

01:02:03   Instead, their prescription eyeglasses start at just 95 bucks

01:02:08   and when you've got a pair of Warby Parker glasses

01:02:11   for 95 bucks, it's not like, oh,

01:02:13   but then you have to buy the anti-glare coating

01:02:17   and you have to get the scratch coating

01:02:19   and next thing you know it's 300 bucks.

01:02:21   No, the $95 glasses you get from Warby Parker

01:02:24   are like good to go.

01:02:25   Like you get the anti-glare, they're scratch proof.

01:02:29   There is no upsell.

01:02:30   There's no hard sell, there's no upsell.

01:02:33   You just get good glasses.

01:02:34   It's amazing.

01:02:35   I couldn't even be reading this ad to you right now

01:02:40   without the Warby Parker glasses that I'm wearing

01:02:42   as I read this.

01:02:44   I just got a new pair a couple weeks ago,

01:02:47   and they're fantastic.

01:02:48   It's a great company.

01:02:49   They have great selection of glasses to choose from.

01:02:52   What you do is you go to their website,

01:02:55   and they have tons and tons of glasses to choose from,

01:02:58   all sorts of styles.

01:02:59   You pick five, up to five that you like,

01:03:02   and they'll mail them to you at your house,

01:03:05   just like with dummy lenses,

01:03:07   just see-through, clear lenses.

01:03:09   So you can try them on in your house, look in the mirror,

01:03:14   get your opinion from whoever you live with

01:03:16   or your friends or whatever, like,

01:03:18   hey, do these look better, do these look better?

01:03:20   And then you just mail those back to them.

01:03:22   And if there's one of them or two of them

01:03:24   or more that you want, you just say,

01:03:27   hey, here's the ones I want.

01:03:28   You send them a picture of your prescription.

01:03:31   And next thing you know, like a week later,

01:03:33   you've got glasses for 95 bucks.

01:03:36   It could not be easier.

01:03:39   and the try-on process could not be easier as well,

01:03:44   including the fact that when they mail them to you,

01:03:47   it already comes with a box with the label on it

01:03:50   for mailing the try-on glasses back to them.

01:03:53   Like, it literally could not be easier.

01:03:56   There's nothing you have to do, no work.

01:03:58   So if you're a total lazy person like I am,

01:04:03   this is the best way to get glasses.

01:04:06   Where do you go to find out more?

01:04:08   go to warbyparker.com/the-talk-show,

01:04:12   and then they'll know you came from the show.

01:04:14   And every time you buy glasses from them,

01:04:17   this is the other thing that's really cool,

01:04:19   they also, each pair you buy from Warby Parker,

01:04:22   they make a pair of glasses to give to charity

01:04:25   for people around the globe who need glasses,

01:04:29   which is absolutely fantastic.

01:04:31   Because imagine living your life

01:04:33   and not being able to see stuff clearly.

01:04:35   It would be horrible.

01:04:36   So Warby Parker is helping to make that,

01:04:38   helping to solve that problem.

01:04:41   Every time you buy a pair of glasses,

01:04:43   they send a pair to people around the world

01:04:46   that need glasses.

01:04:47   So if you need glasses,

01:04:49   next time you need glasses, go to Warby Parker.

01:04:51   I don't know what else to tell you.

01:04:53   All right, what else do we wanna talk about?

01:04:56   There's so much.

01:04:57   - Yeah, so actually, you mentioned, you know,

01:05:01   figuring out retina based on WWDC sessions

01:05:04   from a few years back before it,

01:05:06   - Many years back. - I could have, yeah,

01:05:08   many, many years.

01:05:09   I kind of feel like there are a lot of breadcrumbs

01:05:15   in this year's WWDC about where VR and AR are going

01:05:20   with Apple and I--

01:05:22   - I think so too.

01:05:24   - Yeah.

01:05:25   I just, I don't know if I have that much more to say

01:05:29   about that other than I'm really fascinated

01:05:31   with all of the technology that they dropped

01:05:35   in the dev sessions this year,

01:05:37   because I think quite a lot of it is,

01:05:39   again, setting groundwork.

01:05:40   I mean, APFS is another good example of something.

01:05:43   Obviously, it came to iOS last year,

01:05:46   and you talked a bit about it with Phil and Craig last week,

01:05:50   and now it's coming to the Mac.

01:05:51   But there's a lot in here.

01:05:54   ARKit, I mentioned ARKit already,

01:05:57   but VR is another really, really interesting thing

01:06:01   that comes along side by side

01:06:04   with Apple essentially saying, hey, external GPUs,

01:06:08   the thing that we've kind of naysayed for years and years

01:06:12   because it just wouldn't work well,

01:06:14   we're gonna be shipping developers a kit

01:06:17   that allows them to develop with an external GPU,

01:06:20   with the goal of people being able to buy external GPU kits

01:06:24   next year to use in VR.

01:06:27   And here are all of these tools

01:06:29   if you wanna develop VR games on the Mac,

01:06:31   which heretofore not possible.

01:06:34   And even though consumers, I mean, the earliest a consumer is really going to be able to play

01:06:41   any sort of VR game on the Vive, I mean, technically, I guess you can hook up a Vive to the highest

01:06:47   end iMac that's out right now.

01:06:49   But really, I mean, I think you're going to see more of a push and steam and everything,

01:06:54   the game's coming, starting in December and next year.

01:06:58   So it's just, I don't know, it's really interesting to see Apple getting on the bandwagon in this

01:07:04   way and positioning it from not from a hey consumers we know you love VR so here are

01:07:11   some machines to let you play VR but from a like developers do you want to work on you

01:07:17   know the tools that you really like working on to develop VR content and VR movies we're

01:07:22   going to give you those tools I what you can do I've said this I think with Ben Thompson

01:07:28   I think it was on a show but I've said it numerous times but the way to be right all

01:07:33   the time is not to pretend like you can be correct all the time with every decision you

01:07:40   make and every statement you make because the nature of being a human being is you're

01:07:44   going to be wrong sometimes.

01:07:45   You're going to make mistakes.

01:07:46   The way to be right all the time is to have an open mind and recognize your mistakes and

01:07:51   then just say, "Oh, I screwed that one up."

01:07:55   So if it's as simple as just me writing "Daring Fireball," if I post something and it's wrong,

01:08:01   way to be right all the time is to as soon as I find out that a post is wrong

01:08:04   post an update and say oh this is wrong I screwed up here's the correct thing

01:08:08   and it I'm I feel like what Apple's done with the GPU stuff on the Mac is exactly

01:08:17   what you want to see it it's a sign of a healthy Apple which is clearly they had

01:08:22   their eye off the ball for the last two years or so on Mac hardware and I feel

01:08:29   like a little bit, you know, maybe it was because they were at a high level focused

01:08:34   on the iPad and the iPhone especially, and maybe a little bit they were taking for granted

01:08:41   the Mac market and maybe a little bit they, you know, quote unquote, painted themselves

01:08:48   in a thermal corner with the Mac Pro. But they did. But the fact that they can, you

01:08:55   You know, like, I don't feel like it's worth raking them over the coals for the mistake,

01:09:00   given that they've clearly come back and said, "Okay, we're going to go all in on this."

01:09:06   And like you said, with the eGPUs, it's like, here's where the industry's gone.

01:09:10   And we clearly, in 2013, when we came out with that Mac Pro design, totally did not

01:09:16   anticipate that.

01:09:17   Like that 2013 Mac Pro, for all the pros and cons you can say about it, the one thing about

01:09:23   that clearly is not true, is that architecture did not

01:09:28   anticipate the rise of the GPU as effectively the new CPU,

01:09:36   right?

01:09:37   And the way that all of this machine learning

01:09:40   goes through the GPU, even though it's not actually

01:09:44   graphical at all, that's the thing that it's hard for me

01:09:48   to really get why that's the case.

01:09:51   I don't really understand it, but I know

01:09:53   that it's true that this massively parallel processing,

01:09:58   when you go through the machine learning,

01:10:00   like go through all of my photos

01:10:01   and try to find every one that's a picture of sneakers

01:10:04   or something like that,

01:10:05   it's more efficient on a GPU than a CPU

01:10:08   because it's meant to be parallelized.

01:10:12   They just didn't foresee it.

01:10:13   And now they're like, well, we get it now though,

01:10:16   and we're coming back in a big way.

01:10:19   - Yeah, and not just here's technology

01:10:22   that we kind of screwed up on and we're coming back on it.

01:10:25   But I think your point as to taking the Mac market

01:10:28   for granted and maybe taking pros for granted

01:10:31   and thinking, well, professionals aren't as big

01:10:33   of a market anymore, so do we really need

01:10:35   to put that much emphasis on it?

01:10:38   It feels to me a lot like the early Final Cut Pro 10 days

01:10:41   where they release this new thing and they're like,

01:10:44   right, okay, we're listening to you

01:10:48   and let's show you how much we're listening to you

01:10:51   and where that's going.

01:10:52   And the interesting thing about this WWDC for me in terms of like the overall story,

01:10:59   the where Apple's going story, is the refocus very much so on pros and developers

01:11:05   without necessarily abandoning what makes its consumer hardware so great.

01:11:10   They have managed to find like a really nice line straddle where they can give all of this,

01:11:17   again, this amazing tech that's going to help your average user,

01:11:21   but it's really designed for professionals.

01:11:24   Yeah, ARKit is a great example of that, right?

01:11:26   Because I don't think that they really announced anything Apple--

01:11:30   well, the only thing I can think of that they announced that is, like,

01:11:34   Apple-made that consumers will use is the feature we were just talking about a while ago

01:11:39   about the scanning documents, which is ARKit to get the angle squared up.

01:11:47   Other than that though, the ARKit is really just more,

01:11:50   here's the great framework and we're giving it to you,

01:11:54   the developers, and you guys come up with the ideas,

01:11:57   you know, like better Pokemon Go, you know,

01:12:02   which is obviously silly, but it clearly looks--

01:12:05   - But it's powerful.

01:12:06   - It looks so much better, right?

01:12:08   - It really does.

01:12:09   It's nice to have, you know, the Pokemon sized properly

01:12:11   in regards to the background,

01:12:13   like as silly and little as that is,

01:12:15   or one of the great ridiculous demos that I saw floating around the internet this week,

01:12:21   someone built a 3D model of the Titanic and was able to map it to water. And there's just this

01:12:28   nine second clip of someone panning, moving the camera up and down and side to side,

01:12:35   and basically seeing a virtual 3D model of the Titanic.

01:12:39   - Right, that's amazing. Somebody was talking last week, I don't even know,

01:12:43   it might already be shipping.

01:12:44   I don't know if it was an idea or not.

01:12:46   But clearly, this is going to happen,

01:12:48   and it's going to be on our phones soon with ARKit.

01:12:52   If you're at Ikea and you have a photo of your living room,

01:12:58   you'll be able to live--

01:13:01   what would this table look like if it was our dining room

01:13:03   table?

01:13:04   And you'll be able to see exactly what it'll look like.

01:13:07   Live scan it.

01:13:08   That's super useful.

01:13:11   or walk through tours, essentially being able

01:13:15   to virtually walk through a home

01:13:19   while you're, instead of having to visit

01:13:21   20 different places.

01:13:23   Or here's a crazy one.

01:13:25   360 cameras are one of these things

01:13:28   where I'm just kind of like, eh, you know, I'm not,

01:13:31   as of yet, until very recently, I'm like,

01:13:35   okay, this is cool and all, but is this really useful?

01:13:39   And my pal and yours, Andy Anatko,

01:13:43   came to a roller derby game recently and shot the game,

01:13:47   shot like 10 minutes of the game in 360

01:13:50   from the center of the oval.

01:13:53   And for people who don't know roller derby,

01:13:54   it's a game that's played on an oval track.

01:13:56   And it's basically a combination of sprinting and rugby

01:13:59   where you have players hitting each other

01:14:01   and then you're trying to race around a track.

01:14:03   So the action, there's lots of action happening at one time.

01:14:06   There's simultaneous offense and defense.

01:14:09   And the 360 camera was like seeing that footage,

01:14:13   and I just had to like pan through it on Facebook, right?

01:14:16   Because I didn't have an applicable AR way of holding it up.

01:14:21   But the 360 footage was fascinating

01:14:24   because I could see what was happening

01:14:27   at the back of the action versus the front of the action,

01:14:30   what was happening between the point scorers

01:14:32   and what was happening between the point scorer

01:14:33   of the opposing team without having to rely

01:14:37   on the person who was filming to like zoom in or zoom out.

01:14:40   - Right, it's a sport that's not really amenable

01:14:42   to TV style, you know, one 16 to nine rectangle frame

01:14:47   of action, no, you're exactly right though,

01:14:50   it's a perfect example because there's stuff going 360

01:14:53   degrees around the track at all times.

01:14:55   - Exactly, exactly, and the beauty of that, right,

01:14:59   and I'm thinking about, you know, all of this,

01:15:03   the beauty of it is that like right now we can,

01:15:07   we'll be able to look at those kind of things in AR

01:15:09   with a compatible app, you know, on an iPad, right?

01:15:14   Or on an iPhone, or you look at Apple's even own demo

01:15:16   of Peter Jackson's new software with the 12.9 iPad,

01:15:20   you know, holding up, watching the town get destroyed.

01:15:24   That's really cool, and it's a cool proof of concept demo.

01:15:28   But again, this is, what Apple cares about

01:15:31   is not that you're making apps for somebody

01:15:33   to hold up their iPad for three hours

01:15:35   and play a game in AR,

01:15:37   like Apple's thinking five years down the line.

01:15:39   Apple's thinking, all right,

01:15:40   well, forget about iPhones and iPads.

01:15:43   How do we incorporate this technology

01:15:45   into whatever's next, right?

01:15:47   You're not gonna wanna hold a 12.9-inch screen,

01:15:50   so what are we gonna do?

01:15:51   And that's Apple's deal.

01:15:53   But for Apple to be able to launch that kind of thing

01:15:56   in three, five, 10 years,

01:15:58   whatever the timeline ends up being,

01:16:00   they need the software, they need the bright ideas

01:16:02   and the brilliant ideas that are gonna get the,

01:16:05   your average Pokemon Go loving user to hop on.

01:16:08   'Cause otherwise they're just making Google Glass, right?

01:16:11   They're making it a fun proof of concept

01:16:12   that has no reason or rhyme.

01:16:15   - What do you make of the fact

01:16:21   that they've already updated the MacBook Pros?

01:16:23   - I think that that's a, gosh,

01:16:30   I think primarily it's a, oh, well,

01:16:34   Thankfully, Kaby Lake is finally here,

01:16:36   so we're gonna shove some Kaby Lakes

01:16:37   into the new MacBook Pros.

01:16:39   And if we could have launched the new MacBook Pros

01:16:41   with Kaby Lake last year, we would have done it.

01:16:44   - But we couldn't. - But we couldn't

01:16:45   because Intel. - Right.

01:16:47   Here's what I think.

01:16:48   And I know it seems to me like the sort of typical

01:16:52   like damned if you do, damned if you don't,

01:16:54   where, and I get it, like if you just bought

01:16:58   a new MacBook Pro like four months ago,

01:17:00   it kinda sucks that there's new ones now,

01:17:02   But that's the way the computer industry used to work all the time, right?

01:17:06   There were always new machines nine months after you bought it, and so there was no way

01:17:10   to win.

01:17:12   You were lucky if you got six months with a top-of-the-line machine that was still top-of-the-line.

01:17:17   And so updating October released machines in June is sort of like a return to that.

01:17:24   But the way I feel is that this was a unique situation where the MacBook Pros were overdue

01:17:29   last year.

01:17:30   Everybody wanted new MacBook Pros last year.

01:17:32   Oh, yeah, they were overdue and they made the best ones that they could make given what was available from Intel and ship them

01:17:39   and now that they can make them a little bit better with Kaby like and get a little bit better battery life and you know

01:17:45   It's obviously not radically better. Like if you bought one of the ones that was released last October, you're not like screwed

01:17:51   It's not like you know

01:17:53   But I think it was worth not waiting until now to do it

01:17:58   Yeah, absolutely. Well again, you look at the the overall picture of Apple doesn't like pros

01:18:05   Or Apple is abandoning pros without Apple just basically being like hey guys. Okay, we're we're going to give you this concession

01:18:12   We're gonna show you the MacBook Pro that we've been working on and no it's not the Mac

01:18:16   You know, I think honestly Apple would have liked to release those last

01:18:20   WWDC but the Kaby Lake chips just weren't ready with the the low power stuff that they wanted

01:18:27   So they had to wait and finally they're like, all right

01:18:30   Well, we can't release these with Kaby Lake but you know

01:18:33   We want to we want to make sure that people understand that we're not you know

01:18:36   We're not sitting on our laurels and twiddling our thumbs. We actually are working on great hardware

01:18:41   It's just maybe not as great as we would like it to be

01:18:44   I don't know I have a as somebody who cares more about the Mac than any other product that they make

01:18:49   I thought that this is a great WWDC even if it means that people who bought a Macbook Pro last October

01:18:56   kind of, you know, only got like seven or eight months of top-of-the-line life out of the thing. It's like, well, so it goes.

01:19:03   Yeah, it's, and honestly, it's not, as you said, it's not like it's such a big jump in

01:19:08   performance that now all of a sudden I'm looking at my 13-inch.

01:19:12   It's not the the original MacBook Air versus the 2010 MacBook Airs, right?

01:19:17   Where it's all of a sudden you go from a barely usable computer to a very usable computer.

01:19:22   My 13-inch that I bought in October is still a very usable computer.

01:19:26   It's still a great laptop, and I probably wasn't pushing it to the extent that I could anyway.

01:19:31   And the fact that it has Thunderbolt 3 and everything else, that's the really important stuff for the future-proofing down the line.

01:19:38   You talk about using the eGPU. I'll be able to use an eGPU on my machine from October.

01:19:44   I don't have to buy a machine from June to be able to do that.

01:19:46   So that's the important stuff, I think.

01:19:48   But the really interesting thing, I think this is the thing that's caught my eye and my memory is, well, Kaby Lake is all well and good, but jumping back to iPad for a second here, one of the things we didn't talk about with the new iPad Pros is the ridiculousness of the A10X.

01:20:08   And the fact that I basically have a computer here that's more powerful than, you know, my laptop from four years ago.

01:20:15   Yeah, it's crazy.

01:20:16   It's crazy.

01:20:17   Yeah.

01:20:18   Yeah.

01:20:19   It's absolutely crazy.

01:20:20   And I kind of hinted at it in my review,

01:20:23   but I actually feel that Apple has--

01:20:25   the combination of the incredible achievements

01:20:31   of Apple's in-house chip team and how good the A10X is,

01:20:35   combined with--

01:20:38   I don't want to say the word ineptitude, but--

01:20:42   the hiccups that Intel has had in recent years--

01:20:46   - Lack of innovation from Intel.

01:20:49   - But I actually feel that from a product marketing

01:20:52   standpoint, it's actually put Apple in a very hard position

01:20:55   because they really are totally committed to the Mac.

01:21:00   And I feel like they've shown it and they've really,

01:21:03   it's not just words anymore,

01:21:05   like with the product announcements with the MacBook Pros

01:21:08   and the new MacBook and especially the new iMacs

01:21:11   and super especially the iMac Pro

01:21:15   Super super especially the fact that they've said that the iMac Pro is not the Mac Pro that they talked about

01:21:21   Two months ago that that's still coming

01:21:23   Like there is committed to the Mac as they could possibly be and I feel like the high Sierra story is

01:21:29   Exactly what I wanted them to do. Just don't work on new stuff. Just sort of make it better

01:21:35   All of that said I really feel like the a10x is so good that they're they're in a hard position because they don't want to

01:21:44   denigrate Intel because Intel is an important partner for them and they don't want to denigrate

01:21:49   their own products, which the entire Mac line is based on the Intel chips. But the A10X

01:21:56   embarrasses Intel, in my opinion. I feel like the new iPad Pro is absolutely a slap in the

01:22:02   face. Intel should be ashamed of themselves that this device can't be made using Intel

01:22:07   devices. And it's not just the performance because obviously there are Intel chips that

01:22:13   can outperform the A10X.

01:22:15   It's the fact that it's a fanless, heatless--

01:22:18   it never gets hot, right?

01:22:20   So--

01:22:20   Not even warm.

01:22:21   Right, it never gets warm.

01:22:23   So given those constraints and how light it is

01:22:26   and the battery life it gets, there's

01:22:28   no way to make a machine like that with an Intel chip.

01:22:31   And the MacBook with the Core M3 is--

01:22:35   it's behind the iPad Pro, just in terms of sheer performance.

01:22:40   The only reason to choose it would be if you,

01:22:43   you know, for the reason that I would,

01:22:44   is that I prefer working on a Mac,

01:22:46   and I like Mac software, and I like the form factor,

01:22:49   but as a computer, just judging it as a computing device,

01:22:53   it is so far behind the iPad Pro, it's embarrassing to Intel.

01:22:57   - Yeah, it doesn't, and what is interesting to me

01:23:00   about that is, you know, Intel currently has the edge

01:23:05   on Apple for high-end chips, right?

01:23:08   Apple's not gonna be able to make an A series processor

01:23:11   that's gonna power an iMac Pro or even a Mac Pro yet.

01:23:15   Yet, that's the trick, right?

01:23:17   Like, I mean, maybe that's their announcement

01:23:19   for the Mac Pro, is they're like, yeah,

01:23:22   no, it doesn't run Intel, it just runs the A like 20

01:23:24   or something crazy like that.

01:23:25   - Or like it has like six 810X or something like that.

01:23:29   - Exactly, right, right. - That would be my bug.

01:23:30   And I wouldn't be surprised if that's the story, but.

01:23:33   - Yeah, well, they've just done,

01:23:36   and this entire team has just done such incredible work on silicon.

01:23:40   I mean, there's always the story to be said about, you know, Apple being able to make everything in-house

01:23:47   means that they're able to customize and really focus their CPU on what it needs to do,

01:23:54   as opposed to, you know, meeting the hardware specifications of 20 different computers.

01:23:59   But it's really, it is really staggering.

01:24:03   again, as somebody who maybe pushes the iPad, I have pushed my iPads in the past to 100%

01:24:10   capacity and I have tried just about everything that I can think of on the new 10.5 iPad to

01:24:18   try and push it to capacity, including running 3D intensive games and doing crazy stuff in

01:24:25   Affinity Photo, which by the way, people who have been looking for a Photoshop replacement

01:24:29   since the dawn of the iPad,

01:24:31   Affinity Photo is the Photoshop replacement.

01:24:34   And in fact, once you learn it a little bit,

01:24:37   I would argue that Affinity Photo is in some ways stronger

01:24:40   than Photoshop, which is a frightening thing to say.

01:24:43   But that's the thing, right?

01:24:46   It's like the iPad Pro for many years has been hamstrung

01:24:51   by the double whammy of like the processors

01:24:55   kept on getting more powerful in the iPad,

01:24:58   but they weren't still as powerful as they needed to be

01:25:01   to do certain things.

01:25:03   And the operating system was not necessarily

01:25:07   what pro users wanted to use

01:25:09   because there were the hand tied behind your back thing,

01:25:13   where it's just not quite what I want.

01:25:15   This series of iPad, this series of the A10X

01:25:20   and the design and iOS 11 in the fall,

01:25:24   This is Apple basically being like pro developers,

01:25:28   people who wanna do pro creative software

01:25:31   that takes incredibly intense rendering

01:25:34   and you wanna be able to work fast.

01:25:38   The iPad is now capable of doing this.

01:25:40   So why hamstring yourself with a Mac,

01:25:43   which in some cases is subpar for your work,

01:25:47   unlike in other professions

01:25:50   where I feel like the Mac is superior.

01:25:52   In some professions now, the iPad is the superior device.

01:25:57   And that's a really interesting story

01:26:00   for Apple to be able to tell.

01:26:01   Not that the iPad makes do for where a Mac could,

01:26:05   but you need an iPad to be able

01:26:08   to be the leader in your field.

01:26:10   That's the thing that's making me,

01:26:12   like that's what the A10X and Suruji's Silicon team

01:26:15   has basically opened us up to.

01:26:18   - And again, ProMotion is in hand with that, right?

01:26:21   - Yeah. - It's like, you know,

01:26:23   the graphics throughput on this device is insane.

01:26:27   It's absolutely insane.

01:26:28   - Yeah, the fact that, well, it's constantly pushing,

01:26:32   you know, the screen and doing it without any latency, right?

01:26:37   When doing high-intensity projects,

01:26:40   like the demo on stage of the guy making a movie poster

01:26:44   and doing seamless, you know, wave rendering

01:26:47   without any time, that's impressive,

01:26:50   and it's cool and stuff, but it really doesn't show

01:26:52   what the processor is truly capable of.

01:26:54   - The one where he did the hair recognition

01:26:57   around Johnny Depp for the poster though, that was--

01:27:00   - Yeah.

01:27:00   - That's, and that's the one where I even wrote about.

01:27:03   I actually think that Apple strategically

01:27:06   had a third party do it, and he said it was four times

01:27:09   faster than on a desktop PC doing it on the iPad.

01:27:13   They had a third party say that because they themselves

01:27:16   didn't wanna say this thing is actually faster than a Mac

01:27:19   doing graphics-intensive things like this, that sort of, you know, select the outline

01:27:27   of a very complex, you know, Johnny Depp with Dreadlocks, Captain Jack Sparrow movie poster

01:27:35   thing.

01:27:36   Yeah, no, absolutely, because they don't, again, they don't want to insult Intel, they

01:27:40   don't want to get in trouble with any of their partners, but if a third party's like, yeah,

01:27:44   We use this and it's no slouch.

01:27:48   It's second basically to having John from Procreate

01:27:51   or Adobe come up and say the same thing,

01:27:54   but Adobe can't piss off its own partners.

01:27:59   - But it's kind of fascinating in conjunction

01:28:01   with this whole 10th anniversary of the iPhone and iOS.

01:28:06   We'll touch on that in the next segment of the show

01:28:10   with the book that came out.

01:28:11   But everybody's looking back at it.

01:28:13   And the whole story of the origin of iOS

01:28:19   with the creation of the iPhone was this, hey,

01:28:23   what should it be?

01:28:23   Should it just be an iPod that can make cell phone calls?

01:28:28   Should it be a new OS based on a very light embedded version

01:28:34   of Linux?

01:28:35   Or can Apple strip down Mac OS X to the point

01:28:43   where it could run on a pocket-sized device in 2007.

01:28:48   And the great achievement of that team

01:28:54   is that even people on the team thought

01:28:58   that's probably impossible.

01:28:59   We can't get Mac OS X to be at that level.

01:29:04   And they did it, and that's what made the original iPhone

01:29:08   such a mind-blowing, once-in-our-lifetime,

01:29:11   you know, epic moment in the industry.

01:29:16   But it was, at that origin, it was like,

01:29:23   I can't believe that they got this to the point

01:29:26   where it's actually usable and boots

01:29:28   in a reasonable amount of time and a performance is good.

01:29:31   But it was clearly slower than the Mac.

01:29:34   It was amazing that it ran at all.

01:29:36   And here we are 10 years later,

01:29:38   and they've gotten the iPad to the point

01:29:40   where it's actually more performant

01:29:45   than a consumer MacBook.

01:29:48   It's absolutely-- - Yeah, baseline laptop.

01:29:50   - Right, it has nothing like the original,

01:29:52   when the iPad came out in 2010,

01:29:55   you didn't buy it because it was faster,

01:29:57   you bought it because the--

01:29:59   - Because you wanted it.

01:30:00   - Right, it was all about the UI and the,

01:30:03   hey, I just love this style of computing

01:30:06   and I don't care if it's slower,

01:30:09   I don't need fast, I just need, I like this

01:30:12   lightweight mental model of interaction

01:30:16   with direct manipulation of stuff on screen.

01:30:19   But here we are today in 2017,

01:30:21   and it's actually the faster computer,

01:30:23   which is mind blowing to me.

01:30:25   - Yeah, I'm looking at Geekbench scores right now,

01:30:28   and I just ran it on my 10.5,

01:30:30   and it's fun to look at the compute section of Geekbench

01:30:33   where it compares your device versus older devices,

01:30:37   And I'm looking at their metal score, their GPU score.

01:30:41   The iPhone 5S, which really wasn't that long ago,

01:30:43   the iPhone 5S had a compute score of 546,

01:30:47   and the 10.5-inch iPad Pro has a score of 29,445.

01:30:51   - That's crazy.

01:30:55   - Right?

01:30:56   - Or just look at the graphics performance,

01:30:58   where you take a webpage and just scroll up and down

01:31:00   real fast, just up, down, up, down, up, down.

01:31:03   On the iPad Pro, it looks like you can read it

01:31:06   as it moves up and down the screen,

01:31:08   and even like a high-end Mac, it's blurry

01:31:11   because it just doesn't have that sort of refresh rate.

01:31:14   It's absolutely crazy.

01:31:16   - It's the difference between wearing glasses or not.

01:31:18   The biggest, the processor wow for me

01:31:22   was not running all of those high-end tests,

01:31:25   but actually, I don't know if you've ever used Procreate,

01:31:28   but Procreate has a feature where after you do a drawing,

01:31:32   you can go to export, and you can export the drawing,

01:31:35   But you can also export a video that basically calculates

01:31:40   every single stroke you've made.

01:31:41   So you can kind of see like a fun little time lapse

01:31:43   of what you've drawn.

01:31:44   And those video exports, when I do like a long piece,

01:31:49   for instance, like I did the incomparable holiday card

01:31:51   a few years back, and it took like three, four,

01:31:54   five minutes to export it to, you know,

01:31:56   and it's, you know, the display resolution.

01:31:59   I've been exporting some of my Procreate projects,

01:32:02   including a project that I worked on probably

01:32:04   for seven, eight hours, and the export happens

01:32:06   in less than 15 seconds.

01:32:08   - That's crazy.

01:32:08   - It's just, that's the thing where like,

01:32:11   the first time I did it when I was with Renee,

01:32:13   Renee was like, "Did you just export a photo?"

01:32:15   And I'm like, "No, I exported a video."

01:32:17   - Did you suspect that it didn't work right,

01:32:19   like it was a bug?

01:32:20   - Yeah, oh yeah.

01:32:21   I was like, "Okay, Procreate's broken."

01:32:23   And then I went and I'm like, "Nope, nope, it's there."

01:32:25   That's, wow.

01:32:26   - It's absolutely astounding to me that at this,

01:32:31   to me so quickly, in just a handful of years,

01:32:34   it's gone from, look, use this device

01:32:37   if you prefer the mental model of this conceptually

01:32:41   simpler direct manipulation operating system

01:32:44   at the expense of performance,

01:32:46   because obviously a real Intel PC is gonna be faster,

01:32:50   to this point where it's like,

01:32:51   actually, the only reason to use a Mac is if,

01:32:56   the Mac is the one that has to make the excuse

01:32:58   for the software, right?

01:32:59   It's like you have to really prefer

01:33:01   the full PC operating system because the performance

01:33:06   is not the reason to use that device.

01:33:09   It's crazy. - But I think that's,

01:33:10   that's the best thing.

01:33:12   I mean, it's a long time coming,

01:33:14   but that's the position Apple wants to be in

01:33:16   because then they get to actually go back

01:33:18   to the philosophy from a few years ago,

01:33:20   which is the right device for the right task.

01:33:24   And it's like some tasks make more sense with the Mac,

01:33:27   and that's okay, and some tasks make more sense

01:33:29   with an iPad, and that's okay too.

01:33:31   There can be room for both devices.

01:33:33   It's just pick the one that makes more sense

01:33:35   for your work.

01:33:36   - Absolutely.

01:33:37   All right, let me take a break here

01:33:38   and thank our third sponsor.

01:33:39   It's our good friends at Squarespace.

01:33:41   Look, you guys know Squarespace.

01:33:42   It's where you go to make a website.

01:33:44   You can pick your domain name.

01:33:46   You can host your website there.

01:33:48   They have templates to choose from.

01:33:50   Long story short, I'm not gonna,

01:33:52   I don't know what else to tell you about Squarespace,

01:33:53   but next time you need a website,

01:33:55   Just go there and try to build it at Squarespace first.

01:33:59   Just spend 30 minutes at Squarespace building a new website.

01:34:03   And I can almost guarantee you that you'll just parlay that

01:34:08   into, oh, this is great, this is exactly what I wanted,

01:34:12   and boom, you just roll that in and sign up,

01:34:17   and there you go, you've got a website already.

01:34:19   Stop, don't start by making a new HTML document

01:34:22   and doing it that way.

01:34:24   Go to Squarespace and do it that way.

01:34:26   I told you a couple weeks or months ago

01:34:29   about a local restaurant here in Philly that,

01:34:31   just curiously, I went and viewed Source,

01:34:35   and lo and behold, their website was a Squarespace size.

01:34:38   Another one, just around the corner from me here,

01:34:41   there's a new pizza place that opened up,

01:34:42   and they have wonderful pizza.

01:34:44   It's called Rione, R-I-O-N-E.

01:34:46   So if you're here local in Philly, go to this place.

01:34:49   They have the most amazing pizza.

01:34:51   They also have an adorable website.

01:34:53   It's super cool.

01:34:54   And I thought, I wonder, and I went and viewed Source,

01:34:57   and guess what?

01:34:58   It's a Squarespace site.

01:35:00   So rather than wasting their time

01:35:02   paying somebody to build a fancy website or whatever,

01:35:08   all they do, they're just making the pizza,

01:35:10   and then they have a very cool, very stylish,

01:35:13   totally branded for the restaurant website,

01:35:16   built with Squarespace.

01:35:20   Don't waste your time building it on your own.

01:35:23   just go to Squarespace and all you have to do is design it.

01:35:26   It's so great.

01:35:27   So my thanks to Squarespace, go to squarespace.com.

01:35:31   And when you sign up, remember the code GRUBER,

01:35:35   my last name, you gotta remember that.

01:35:37   And when you actually sign up to pay,

01:35:39   you'll save 10% on your first order.

01:35:42   So go to squarespace.com/talkshow

01:35:44   and remember that code GRUBER and you'll save 10%.

01:35:51   I got two other things I wanted to talk about, Serenity.

01:35:53   I wanted to talk about this book that's coming out,

01:35:57   Brian Merchant's The One Device,

01:35:59   and the excerpt that ran in The Verge.

01:36:02   And then I wanna talk about WWDC being in San Jose

01:36:07   and what we think about that.

01:36:08   So let's talk about the book first.

01:36:10   - All right.

01:36:11   - It's not coming out till next week,

01:36:13   so this podcast will come out before the book comes out.

01:36:16   But The Verge ran an excerpt a couple of days ago,

01:36:19   and it made some waves.

01:36:23   - Just a few.

01:36:23   - Particularly, and it was funny,

01:36:26   so I'm reading this excerpt the day that it came out,

01:36:31   and I'm reading it and I'm into it,

01:36:33   and it's like, wow, there's some stuff in here

01:36:35   that I didn't know before, this is great,

01:36:38   and I knew I was gonna link to it from during Fireball,

01:36:41   and there was this great little story from Greg Christie,

01:36:44   who's, I think he left Apple about two or three years ago.

01:36:48   He used to head up their human interface design team,

01:36:52   and his team came up with, more or less came up

01:36:55   with the original iPhone, the entire UI design.

01:37:00   And he had a great story about how they had

01:37:03   what he called tapas, little things.

01:37:08   There was like, oh, well, here's how you would,

01:37:10   we think on a little three and a half inch touchscreen,

01:37:13   here's how you would do contacts.

01:37:17   and an idea for, you know, here's how we think, you know,

01:37:21   we would do like a web view for the web browser or whatever,

01:37:25   but they didn't really have the whole start to finish,

01:37:28   here's exactly what you'll see when the phone turns on,

01:37:31   here's what happens when you tap this, here's what, you know,

01:37:34   and more or less Steve Jobs came to him,

01:37:36   it's like, these ideas are fine,

01:37:38   but I want the whole story.

01:37:40   You have two weeks, give me the whole story,

01:37:43   or I'm putting another team on this.

01:37:44   and they went into this, as Greg Christie calls it,

01:37:48   death march, but his team spent two weeks

01:37:50   living in this lab, and the place got all smelly,

01:37:54   and he had people sleeping at his house

01:37:56   'cause he didn't want them driving home

01:37:58   'cause they were so exhausted.

01:37:59   But in two weeks, they more or less came up with,

01:38:02   Greg Christie said, "If I could reproduce the demo

01:38:05   "we had at the end of that two weeks,

01:38:06   "you would recognize it today as an iPhone."

01:38:09   And I had this ready to go as my Daring Fireball post.

01:38:13   I'm going to block quote this little section of this

01:38:15   and say, go read this.

01:38:17   And then I went down a little further

01:38:18   and read the bit about Schiller.

01:38:21   And I was like, delete, delete, delete, select all, delete.

01:38:24   It was like, this is why I read the whole story

01:38:29   before I post.

01:38:30   - Yeah.

01:38:31   Yeah.

01:38:35   - So the bit that got all the publicity was Tony Fidell,

01:38:40   former Apple executive who was in charge of the iPod hardware

01:38:44   and was in charge of iPhone hardware

01:38:49   in the original iPhone, was quoted extensively saying

01:38:55   that Phil Schiller was the lone person at the executive level

01:38:59   who was insistent that the original iPhone should

01:39:02   have a hardware keyboard like a BlackBerry,

01:39:06   and that it got to the point where there was a screaming

01:39:10   match and that Steve Jobs said something to the effect of,

01:39:14   "I'm sick of this shit. Get on board or get the fuck out,"

01:39:18   and kicked him out of a meeting. And then it was immediately followed by a

01:39:23   story by a guy named Brett Bilbray, who

01:39:28   wasn't quoted extensively. He was quoted in little snippets

01:39:33   saying something to the effect of that Phil Schiller

01:39:36   isn't a tech guy and understands things like a grandma and grandpa from middle America.

01:39:43   I think, so I think here's what I think happened. I think Tony Fidele shot his mouth off

01:39:53   and regrets it because it's since come out. The author of the book, Brian Merchant,

01:40:01   was on the Verge catch with Neelai Patel and says he has the entire interview with Fadel on tape

01:40:08   and went back and double-checked and everything he quoted him saying was on tape.

01:40:14   So the whole, what Schiller did though, I think it's kind of genius, is Schiller just said, "Not

01:40:21   true. Don't believe everything you read" in response to some random person saying, "Hey,

01:40:25   "Hey, Phil, is it true that you pushed this hard

01:40:29   "for a hardware keyboard?"

01:40:31   And in response to that tweet, Fidel tweeted,

01:40:34   "Hey, this whole story isn't true.

01:40:37   "I really value my friendship with Phil Schiller

01:40:40   "and my time working with him."

01:40:43   And this merchant has said, responded to that

01:40:46   and was like, "Well, I have you on tape saying this."

01:40:51   I feel like it's pretty clear what happened.

01:40:55   I think Tony Fidell was quoted accurately.

01:40:58   He said what he's quoted as saying,

01:41:00   whether it's actually true what he said is up for debate.

01:41:04   Debatable. Yeah.

01:41:06   Right? Long story short,

01:41:08   that's where we stand.

01:41:12   Is it true or not that this happened?

01:41:15   Who knows? Tony Fidell says one thing.

01:41:17   But I think it's so funny that Phil Schiller baited, you know, he...

01:41:22   Fidel tells this story that seemingly tries to make Phil Schiller look a little foolish, in hindsight at least.

01:41:30   And in just 44, in a 144 character tweet, Phil Schiller baited him into publicly making a shit out of himself.

01:41:37   [laughter]

01:41:40   Well, what is it?

01:41:43   Dish, grandma and grandpa, my ass.

01:41:47   I mean, Phil Schiller is many things.

01:41:54   Not intelligent is not one of them.

01:41:57   Or technically savvy is absolutely positively not true.

01:42:00   And I realize I'm coming at it from the perspective of somebody

01:42:04   who just had him on my show last week.

01:42:06   And so you can say, well, of course,

01:42:08   going to defend him because he's a friend of the show and he comes on your show, you know,

01:42:13   last three years. Put that aside, I'm telling you that I don't know anybody in the press. I mean,

01:42:21   Walt Mossberg came out. I mean, Walt's got no fucks left to give because he's retired.

01:42:26   He's retired.

01:42:28   Right. And Walt is like, if you, you know, I've talked to, he's probably talked to

01:42:32   Phil Schiller more times than anybody in the press combined. In fact, I would bet on it because I

01:42:36   I don't see how anybody else could have talked with Phil Schiller more times

01:42:41   than Walt Mossberg. And Walt is like, if you don't think Phil Schiller knows his

01:42:45   stuff, you're an idiot. Yeah, there's no question. I mean, you don't get

01:42:50   to where you are by being an empty head or an empty suit. So I know it's, you know,

01:42:56   I don't want to go too far in this book because it's not out yet, so I haven't

01:42:59   read it. I'm greatly looking forward to it. But in particular, this anecdote about

01:43:04   the hardware keyboard to me and I really do mean this like Phil Schiller doesn't

01:43:10   mean need me to defend him but I'm just saying even if it is true particularly

01:43:16   depending on the timeline of when this argument happened I don't really think

01:43:20   it was even so much about whether you needed a hardware keyboard but more

01:43:26   about whether the iPhone needed a software it needed a keyboard period

01:43:31   Like yeah, because because it's clear that at this point they were kicking around the notion and Steve Jobs himself

01:43:37   Even you know was clearly of half a mind that it should be more like an iPod like a consumer electronics thing

01:43:46   that

01:43:47   Ran they even called them widgets, right?

01:43:51   But and they even had the guy who invented dashboard for Mac OS X port like the calculator and the stocks widget

01:43:58   to

01:43:59   a

01:44:00   a non-Mac OS X based iPhone prototype, right?

01:44:05   That it would be like the sort of thing where there'd be an iPod so you could play music.

01:44:10   There'd be a phone where you could dial numbers and select people,

01:44:14   and maybe like a calculator and a stock widget and, you know,

01:44:18   something for text messaging and that's it.

01:44:20   But even like the text messaging thing wouldn't necessarily have like a keyboard.

01:44:24   Maybe it would have like a, you know, like the way we texted before,

01:44:28   where you'd type them on a number pad or something.

01:44:30   T9.

01:44:31   Right.

01:44:31   Like, I think it's entirely possible,

01:44:35   even if this anecdote is true,

01:44:37   that what Schiller was saying was,

01:44:39   we need to, we've got the ability to make this

01:44:42   a little tiny personal computer,

01:44:44   and therefore it needs the ability

01:44:45   to actually type on a real keyboard.

01:44:48   Whereas there might have been other people

01:44:50   who were like, nah, we don't need that.

01:44:51   Which should be more like a simple phone

01:44:53   that just happens to have some things

01:44:55   like a stock widget and a calculator widget.

01:44:59   - Yeah, I mean, I can see it as,

01:45:02   I think more likely the conversation comes on the heels of,

01:45:07   well, can we even make a software keyboard work

01:45:11   to the extent where it's actually functional?

01:45:14   'Cause I could very much see Shiller putting his foot down

01:45:17   if it's been six months and the software keyboard

01:45:20   still looks shitty, looks terrible, right?

01:45:24   Can't, the button response is not right,

01:45:26   or you're constantly button mashing, or you just like,

01:45:29   There are many reasons why a software keyboard would not have been successful at that point,

01:45:34   and I can see making that point. But the way that the story is structured, it just makes it sound

01:45:40   like, I don't know, I feel like it is bad narration on Merchant's part, because I just,

01:45:47   it feels like there's more to the story, whether the quote is complete fabrication or not.

01:45:53   But if the quote is true, like the fact that it's just like, oh yeah, Schiller was against it,

01:45:59   Like, not when Schiller was against it, not why Schiller was against it, just Schiller

01:46:03   was against it.

01:46:04   Right.

01:46:05   And, you know, when this argument took place, in what state was the software keyboard that

01:46:13   we know for the iPhone?

01:46:15   Did it even exist?

01:46:16   Because if it didn't even exist yet, it's actually the most logical argument to make.

01:46:22   It's actually, you know, correct in hindsight that we gotta have a keyboard.

01:46:27   It's kind of funny how it blew out of control.

01:46:31   And again, I've never met the guy, and I would love to because he seems like he's a lot of

01:46:37   fun, but it seems to me like Tony Fidell needs a better press handler.

01:46:44   Yeah, maybe gone off as a...

01:46:49   One interesting thing...

01:46:51   I just want to reiterate that Tony Fidell, as we record this, his public stances, this

01:46:58   thing that I was quoted accurately saying is not true.

01:47:05   He hasn't walked it back yet?

01:47:07   No, all he said is that it's not true, but he hasn't denied that the quote is accurate,

01:47:12   which is...

01:47:13   Oh boy.

01:47:14   And Merchant says he has tape, so it must be accurate.

01:47:17   In other words, Tony Fidell is saying, "The story that I've told is not accurate."

01:47:21   And on the Vergecast, Merchant says that he—Fidell emailed him and said,

01:47:27   "Some of the stories I told you I didn't mean for you to take literally."

01:47:30   Oh my god.

01:47:31   And what is extra funny to me is that, of course, what, two days after this story comes out,

01:47:42   the Computer History Museum announces that they're gonna, you know, have a bunch of the iPhone

01:47:48   engineers for a roundtable, including Scott Forstall, who did not get interviewed for this

01:47:54   book and who no one has really talked to about creating the iPhone, period, up to this point,

01:47:59   because he's been under NDA. Well, we don't know that. We don't know that that's why.

01:48:04   That's true. That's true. It couldn't, it could be that he just didn't feel like talking about it.

01:48:08   Right. I-

01:48:09   It sure was fair. He put a lot of his life into it.

01:48:11   I honestly have no idea.

01:48:14   I mean, the last time I talked to Scott Forstall,

01:48:18   he was an Apple employee.

01:48:19   So it's been a long time since I've talked to Scott Forstall.

01:48:23   I don't-- I would highly doubt that his nondisclosure agreement

01:48:28   for the termination package he got,

01:48:31   I would highly doubt that it lasted five years.

01:48:33   I would guess it was probably like two or three years.

01:48:37   And I think that his continuing silence is simply

01:48:41   the fact that he was,

01:48:46   whatever else you want to say about the guy,

01:48:48   he's an Apple employee and Apple employees don't talk.

01:48:51   You know what I mean? - It's true.

01:48:53   That's true. - So I can't wait for that.

01:48:55   It's John Markoff, formerly of the New York Times,

01:48:57   who's hosting it.

01:48:58   And there is going to be video.

01:49:00   It's gonna be like live cast on Facebook

01:49:03   or whatever they call the thing for the clips.

01:49:05   But there's gonna be video, so it's great.

01:49:07   I hope it's interesting.

01:49:08   I hope he opens up,

01:49:09   'cause that's a guy whose story we haven't heard

01:49:13   since the whole shit went down

01:49:15   where he got forced out of the company.

01:49:17   - Yeah.

01:49:19   - And I do kind of feel like this merchant's book,

01:49:22   whatever it is, it seems like there's a lot of good stuff

01:49:24   in it, but the fact that it doesn't have on the record stuff

01:49:27   from Forstall or anybody on Forstall's team

01:49:29   means at least half the story is not in the book.

01:49:31   - Yeah.

01:49:33   And quite a large portion of the story, really.

01:49:36   - Right, because getting Greg Christie and Boz Orting

01:49:41   and a couple of other people from the design side,

01:49:44   that's fantastic.

01:49:45   It really is, it's a huge score for him.

01:49:47   I can't wait to read that part of the book.

01:49:50   But saying here's the design for the iPhone is one thing.

01:49:55   Actually getting it to run, like I said,

01:49:58   on 2007 ARM hardware is an entirely other thing,

01:50:02   and arguably the greater accomplishment.

01:50:06   - Yeah.

01:50:06   - I remember talking to somebody at the Macworld Expo

01:50:12   in January 2007 when it was announced.

01:50:15   I knew somebody who, I didn't know beforehand,

01:50:23   but afterwards I knew he worked at Apple

01:50:25   and I knew that he had disappeared

01:50:28   and it ends up he was working on the original iPhone

01:50:31   on the software.

01:50:33   And I was like, this is where you've been.

01:50:35   He was like, "Yeah."

01:50:36   And he still couldn't tell me anything, really.

01:50:39   He could at least say, "Yes, this is what

01:50:40   I've been working on."

01:50:42   And I remember saying to him,

01:50:43   "Okay, so it's running a stripped-down version

01:50:46   of Mac OS X.

01:50:46   I don't care how stripped down it is,

01:50:48   it's gonna take forever to turn on.

01:50:50   Like, how is that gonna work?"

01:50:52   'Cause my current cell phone at the time,

01:50:54   you could totally have it powered off,

01:50:56   powered on, and it would be on in five seconds.

01:50:58   And he just said, "You're thinking about it wrong.

01:51:02   You're not going to turn it on and off.

01:51:04   you're going to put it to sleep.

01:51:06   And I was like, oh.

01:51:09   But it's funny because here we are in 2017,

01:51:11   and it actually doesn't take that long for an iPhone

01:51:14   to turn on anymore.

01:51:15   But the original one did take--

01:51:17   I was correct.

01:51:18   It did take forever to turn on.

01:51:21   Something like 56 seconds, if I remember correctly.

01:51:23   I think it took longer.

01:51:24   I think it took over a minute.

01:51:25   I think it was more than a minute.

01:51:27   Well, you can still get that experience

01:51:29   if you reboot your Apple Watch.

01:51:33   - So true.

01:51:33   Oh my God, upgrading your Apple Watch.

01:51:37   It's still, is there anything worse

01:51:40   in the entire Apple ecosystem

01:51:41   than like a minor point upgrade to watchOS?

01:51:44   'Cause you're not even gonna get like a major upgrade,

01:51:47   you're really just getting like security fixes

01:51:49   and bug fixes. - Bug fixes, yep.

01:51:50   - And it takes forever.

01:51:54   - So my fun story on that is I have iOS 11

01:52:00   running on pretty much all of my iOS devices.

01:52:02   I have High Sierra running in a partition on my Mac because I'm not stupid enough to install it wholesale, but I still do not have watchOS 4 because every time I go to install it, it either doesn't work or it's like, will take four and a half hours to download and install.

01:52:22   Oh, the watch.

01:52:24   That's that's that's something Apple could, you know, future future updates.

01:52:28   Yeah, the watch easier to update.

01:52:30   No, you know they will because it used to be so hard to update the phone.

01:52:33   It'll be the same way because you used to have to plug it into your Mac and download it on your Mac

01:52:38   and install it over. You couldn't do it right on the phone itself. It'll happen for the watch.

01:52:43   And we'll all look back at these watch 1.0 and watch 2.0 days and laugh, but we're not there.

01:52:49   We'll get stories. Yeah, we'll get stories from the creators of the

01:52:51   watch at the Computer History Museum. It'll be great.

01:52:54   Anyway, last but not least, I wanted to talk to you about just the overall experience,

01:53:00   the experience of being at WWDC last week. I thought you had a great piece. I will,

01:53:04   I promise, I swear to God, it's going into show notes. You had a good piece that you wrote,

01:53:09   I think Friday? It was at the end of the week.

01:53:12   Yeah, Friday as I was coming home, I was on the plane and I was just kind of, you know,

01:53:18   free form thinking. There were a couple people who wrote some really nice ones, including

01:53:24   Steve, Steven Hackett of Relay and a couple other folks.

01:53:28   But it's, it was a really different conference than in many years.

01:53:33   And it, I, you know, I go to WWDC and it's nice to, to see these people, you know, to see you and to see the other folks in the media, but also to see all of these developers and podcasters and friends that I've made through over the years at various events and throughout this community.

01:53:52   But it's always one of those things where like it's always a rush right where you maybe see you see people at like 2 in the morning

01:53:58   for drinks

01:54:01   But the rest of the the rest of the week, it's just kind of like maybe you'll see them, you know in and out really quickly

01:54:06   Whereas this year it felt like I got to spend a even being probably having it be one of the craziest

01:54:15   WWDCs for me as a writer in recent memory. I feel like I was constantly

01:54:21   amidst everybody.

01:54:23   And part of it is just this,

01:54:25   San Jose is not what I would call a crazy bustling city

01:54:30   in the way that San Francisco is.

01:54:33   San Jose almost reminds me a little more,

01:54:35   I mean, it's a sleepy California town in a way,

01:54:39   while still being a major American city.

01:54:41   It just has this relaxed sort of atmosphere,

01:54:45   or at least it did throughout the entire week,

01:54:48   where almost, you know, there were restaurants,

01:54:51   but there weren't so many that like you could go

01:54:54   to a coffee shop and never run into anybody.

01:54:57   Instead, I feel like everybody was

01:54:58   at the same two coffee shops.

01:55:00   So you would constantly be running into people

01:55:02   that you knew, you'd constantly be getting

01:55:04   these great conversations and not just, you know,

01:55:07   not just people who, you know, you might end up

01:55:10   for drinks with, but people who could never make it

01:55:12   to the 2 a.m. drinks crowd, right?

01:55:14   Or you've run into Apple engineers on their way

01:55:17   from getting lunch and I don't know,

01:55:19   it's the, one of the things that I always heard people say

01:55:22   about the WWDC ticket was the sessions are great,

01:55:25   but the reason why you buy the ticket

01:55:27   is not for the sessions.

01:55:28   You buy the ticket for the labs

01:55:30   and you buy the ticket for the random chance encounters

01:55:32   and the meetings and the waiting for the restroom line

01:55:36   and joking there.

01:55:37   And this year, it felt like the entirety of San Jose

01:55:43   was the WWDC keynote hall or conference hall

01:55:47   It's just like you were constantly running into people

01:55:49   and making those amazing connections

01:55:51   and having interesting discussions,

01:55:53   whether you were at WWDC or outside or at Layers

01:55:57   or at social policy, the coffee shop, it was great.

01:56:02   - Yeah, social policy turned into

01:56:03   like the second keynote hall.

01:56:07   It was like-- - Oh, yeah.

01:56:09   - But you wrote, when you originally booked your ticket,

01:56:12   you were only staying until Tuesday

01:56:14   because you were like, I don't know, maybe half these people are going to end up back

01:56:19   in San Francisco by Tuesday afternoon.

01:56:21   Yeah.

01:56:22   Like, are people going to stay there?

01:56:23   And it wasn't the case at all.

01:56:25   No.

01:56:26   And you're exactly right, too, to the point where I question how San Jose functions without

01:56:34   WWDC.

01:56:36   Because in that downtown area, it's a very nice layout, but it reminds me of a college

01:56:42   campus.

01:56:43   Yeah.

01:56:44   It's more like a college campus and there's that park and there's you know

01:56:49   The the Convention Center is at one end and there's the at least two of the hotels. There's a Marriott

01:56:56   I forget the other one at Hilton, but they're right next to the Convention Center

01:56:59   there's the park and all around that park is almost everything that you went to that the

01:57:04   You know a couple of hotels

01:57:07   The the Sunday night screening of the app the human story documentary was like just one block off from there

01:57:14   You know like nothing was more than like one block away from that that park

01:57:18   But every single person I saw everywhere was there for?

01:57:23   WWDC or one of the ancillary things like layers or old conf or something like that

01:57:28   So I don't even understand how that entire area functions when there's not a conference. I

01:57:33   Mean I know there are

01:57:37   there are tech companies that work just up the way, you know, there's Viv and there are a couple

01:57:42   others sort of on that, on Mission Street, on San Jose's Mission Street.

01:57:45   And Adobe's headquarters is very, very nearby.

01:57:47   Yeah. Yeah, so it's, I mean, there are people and there are colleges nearby. But yeah, I don't know,

01:57:55   maybe there are just a lot of conferences and that's how they run that area. Or maybe it just

01:58:01   just happens to be a quiet spot for the folks

01:58:06   who work on market to go get their lunch,

01:58:08   and then this week it just turned into insanity.

01:58:12   But it wasn't even, but that's a funny thing, right?

01:58:14   It wasn't really even insanity.

01:58:16   It was just the right amount of people

01:58:19   to make that entire downtown area function.

01:58:21   - And it seems like the conference,

01:58:26   I forget what it's called, McHenry, whatever it's called.

01:58:29   - The McHenry, yeah. - The McHenry Center

01:58:31   has more square footage than Moscone West.

01:58:34   I mean, I don't even think there's a question about it.

01:58:36   - No.

01:58:37   - And Apple really took advantage of that.

01:58:41   I was on Jim Dalrymple's podcast

01:58:43   and we recorded it in the,

01:58:46   did you make it to the podcast?

01:58:47   - I didn't, but Rene did.

01:58:49   And he had a--

01:58:51   - Gorgeous, absolutely.

01:58:52   I figured it would just be like a little black box

01:58:56   in the corner because that's all you need.

01:58:57   You know what I mean?

01:58:58   You don't need, it doesn't need to look good.

01:58:59   But it was amazing because it overlooked this lounge

01:59:06   that they had set up that was several thousand square foot.

01:59:09   And while we were recording Wednesday afternoon

01:59:11   or Thursday afternoon, whenever the hell it was,

01:59:16   there must have been 1,100 to 1,500 WWDC attendees

01:59:20   in this lounge one floor down that we were overlooking,

01:59:23   just downloading betas and chilling.

01:59:26   and just it was a type of space that there was nothing like that, no ability to create

01:59:32   a space like that in Moscone West.

01:59:35   I think, I mean Apple obviously doesn't say stuff like this.

01:59:40   They don't say like, "We'll be back here next year.

01:59:42   We'll find out when the WWDC is announced in April next year," or whenever the hell

01:59:46   they announce it.

01:59:48   But I would bet heavily that it's forever going to be in San Jose henceforth because

01:59:54   it just-

01:59:55   - It just feels way more Apple-y.

01:59:57   Apple, it feels more natural to Apple.

02:00:01   Apple got to control more of the experience

02:00:03   within the convention hall,

02:00:05   and they got to control way more of the experience

02:00:07   in the surrounding neighborhood.

02:00:09   That's the biggest difference.

02:00:11   - Oh yeah.

02:00:12   Being able to have all the WWDC banners on the signposts,

02:00:16   I think, went around for at least a square mile

02:00:19   was very, very impressive.

02:00:21   - That said, I do feel, if I have a suggestion to Apple,

02:00:25   it would be that they should reach out to local restaurants and bars.

02:00:30   Yes.

02:00:31   [laughter]

02:00:32   And tell them to treat this whole week like a weekend.

02:00:36   Yep. More staff, later hours.

02:00:40   After... So my live show was on Tuesday.

02:00:43   And my event horizon for that show is

02:00:48   be ready to go and all I can think is

02:00:53   be ready to go by 7 p.m. to actually step on stage

02:00:56   and have questions ready,

02:00:58   and don't make a fool of yourself

02:01:01   for the next hour or 90 minutes, and then that's it.

02:01:05   Once that show is over,

02:01:06   I have no idea what the hell is going on.

02:01:08   It was over, it seemed like it was a success.

02:01:12   I felt like it was a really good show.

02:01:14   I really liked it.

02:01:15   Phil and Craig hung around for a little bit,

02:01:18   and we talked backstage, and it was all very fun.

02:01:21   And next thing you know, they leave.

02:01:25   And I wrapped up.

02:01:27   I dot the i's, crossed the t's with the event staff

02:01:32   in the theater.

02:01:34   And there was about six of us.

02:01:35   It was like me and Amy and Paul Kefastis,

02:01:38   who did a great job announcing the show,

02:01:41   and a couple of other people.

02:01:43   But we needed dinner.

02:01:44   And all of a sudden-- and I'm famished all of a sudden.

02:01:46   Because I had lunch like eight hours before.

02:01:49   And--

02:01:49   Yeah, you're on stage time.

02:01:51   Yeah.

02:01:51   and I only pecked at it.

02:01:53   So we needed to go eat.

02:01:54   And Paul found a place, and it looked good,

02:01:57   and it was, I don't know, a quarter mile away,

02:02:00   a third of a mile away, not too far, nothing down there.

02:02:03   But they're open 'til midnight,

02:02:04   and it was like, so we could make it easily.

02:02:07   And so we get there at 10.25.

02:02:09   I remember this very specifically.

02:02:11   It was 95 minutes before their closing time.

02:02:14   We get there, and the woman is putting the chairs

02:02:18   up on the tables, and she goes, "Oh, we're closed."

02:02:21   and Paul says, "But you're open till midnight."

02:02:24   And she goes, "That's what the last guy said."

02:02:26   (laughing)

02:02:28   And clearly meaning somebody who was just there

02:02:30   like a minute or two before.

02:02:31   - Yeah.

02:02:32   - And who thought that maybe they would be open

02:02:35   until their stated closing time

02:02:37   or even close to their stated closing time.

02:02:41   - God forbid.

02:02:42   - We just close our kitchen whenever it gets slow.

02:02:45   And it's like, that's not how hours work.

02:02:48   (laughing)

02:02:50   Well, there's your answer about how the town survives when WWDC is not in town.

02:02:54   Right, they just closed.

02:02:55   [Laughter]

02:02:58   Yeah, yeah. Thankfully, I did not have as many late hours as I did this year as I have in previous years.

02:03:06   But we definitely ran into that once or twice, you know, going to some place for dinner and having it be like,

02:03:12   "Oh, out of the office for a few hours, had to go," you know, as I said, it feels like very small town California in some ways.

02:03:20   So maybe if the city can just be like,

02:03:23   "Hey, local businesses, we'll make it

02:03:26   "so that you make more money than you probably will

02:03:28   "all year otherwise."

02:03:29   - Yeah, just treat Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday of that week

02:03:33   like a weekend and you'll be fine.

02:03:36   - Yeah, exactly.

02:03:37   - Don't treat it like a typical Monday,

02:03:38   'cause it's not going to be a typical Monday.

02:03:41   - No, if you're closed on Monday, maybe stay open.

02:03:44   - No, anyway, but I do think it was great,

02:03:46   I really, really enjoyed just the fact that it seemed like everybody who you ran into

02:03:53   was there for WWDC.

02:03:57   It was really great.

02:04:00   Or if they weren't, they soon became part of WWDC.

02:04:04   Yeah, and I would bet.

02:04:08   Again, I have no inside knowledge.

02:04:10   Nobody...

02:04:11   It wasn't like I asked Phil Schiller backstage, "Hey, are we coming back here next year?"

02:04:15   because I knew he wouldn't answer.

02:04:17   So nobody said anything to me,

02:04:18   but I would be shocked almost if it wasn't in San Jose

02:04:23   going forward, because it just seems to me

02:04:25   like it was a rousing success.

02:04:27   - I hope it is.

02:04:28   And on a personal fun note,

02:04:31   one of the really cool things about San Jose is it's flat

02:04:36   and relatively easy to get around, as you said,

02:04:40   like all of the venues are kind of

02:04:42   within half a mile of each other.

02:04:44   I had my roller skates for some demos,

02:04:47   and I ended up spending the last two days of the conference

02:04:50   just going from place to place on my skates,

02:04:54   and that is the best time, hands down,

02:04:57   that I've ever had going from building to building

02:05:00   at a conference, and if they do it in San Jose again,

02:05:02   I'm like, "I'm bringing my skates."

02:05:04   - And if they bring it back to San Francisco,

02:05:06   you'd kill yourself.

02:05:08   - Yeah, oh yeah.

02:05:09   I have skated in San Francisco precisely once,

02:05:13   and it was awful. - You'd achieve

02:05:14   Escape velocity.

02:05:15   Right?

02:05:16   Yeah, you don't, there are certain hills, certain streets, you're just like, "No,

02:05:20   that's not going to work."

02:05:22   Very, very, nobody has ever described San Francisco as a very flat city.

02:05:25   No, not so much.

02:05:30   Thank you so much, Serenity.

02:05:31   I always appreciate having you on the show.

02:05:33   Everybody can read your fine writing at iMore.

02:05:36   You did a terrific, is the transcript up?

02:05:39   Do we have the transcript?

02:05:40   The transcript is up, yes.

02:05:42   it will be, it is 90% finished,

02:05:46   it will be fully finished by the time that this show is live.

02:05:48   - So Serenity was kind enough over at iMore.

02:05:51   I will have a link to it in the show notes.

02:05:53   There's a full transcript of the live show from last week.

02:05:56   And people can follow you on Twitter at,

02:06:00   what's your Twitter handle?

02:06:02   - Saturn, S-E-T-T-E-R-N.

02:06:04   - There we go.

02:06:06   Thank you so much for your time.

02:06:07   Always good to have you on the show.