The Talk Show

176: ‘Frolic’ With Craig Hockenberry


00:00:00   Ah Craig's good to hear your voice. Yeah, likewise. It's been a while since we talked. Yeah

00:00:06   You want to this this let's just get it out of the way we got to talk about this Trump tech tech summit

00:00:16   Because here's the thing. Oh, man

00:00:19   You're gonna lead off with this I would have you know started my heart holiday party

00:00:27   Here's the thing even as I'm not really shying away from writing about politics on daring fireball

00:00:34   Even if I decided that if I had chosen differently and said, you know what? I'm not you know, whatever my feelings are

00:00:39   I'm gonna make this a

00:00:41   Politics free site even even in this here's it here's an intersection of of the Trump administration

00:00:48   Incoming Trump administration and the stuff that I do write about that, you know, it would be criminal not to mention it

00:00:54   So what happened I don't know and for anybody had their head in the sand Trump and his buddy Peter Thiel put together a

00:01:01   summit of

00:01:04   They invited I don't they only invited ten people. I think there were like 14 people from Trump's immediate

00:01:11   family and his

00:01:14   transition team in attendance and ten leaders of of the US tech industry

00:01:20   Who were in attendance? I think it was Tim Cook from Apple who had a primo seat

00:01:26   To away from Trump, you know the seating, you know, if you'd looked at the seating chart, it was clearly very very

00:01:31   Play was thought out. Yeah, I just thought out definitely

00:01:35   Yeah, I mean, you don't you don't just say oh, hey, why don't you three kids sit over here, right?

00:01:41   It's like that it that into the table was like the other the kids table that you know Thanksgiving, right?

00:01:50   But yeah, I mean the thing that got me was that that picture of

00:01:54   Tim Cook, right? This is just the look on his face. I mean, I try not to read into pictures too much

00:02:02   I mean you we've all done, you know, you know, you're watching a video or whatever and you know

00:02:06   You paused and it's like the person's making that face which is like what the heck you know

00:02:10   Because it you know, it doesn't fit into the the story that's going on with it. Just making some funny face, right?

00:02:15   but I look at that picture of Tim Cook and

00:02:19   That is the expression I think I would have if I was at that meeting

00:02:24   Right, just like ashen kind of what the hell is going on here

00:02:30   Somebody do you are to watch the HBO show the Larry David show curb your enthusiasm

00:02:42   Because they the show for anybody doesn't watch the show usually ends

00:02:47   It's a very... the show is incredibly awkward. It's about... it's nothing about... other than about creating awkward

00:02:53   situations, and then a typical episode ends in a horribly awkward situation with a freeze frame,

00:02:58   and then this funny music comes up.

00:03:00   Yeah, that's all that was missing is that funny music.

00:03:04   There's another thing, too, where I'm always hesitant to... especially coming out of a political

00:03:14   election, whether it's national or local.

00:03:17   There's obviously-- and it's only gotten worse,

00:03:20   because I think because our politics have gotten

00:03:24   so much more partisan, and the fact

00:03:26   that there are so many more photographs taken,

00:03:28   because digital cameras.

00:03:30   If you ever watch at these press conferences,

00:03:33   it really almost sounds like--

00:03:36   not a war zone, but almost--

00:03:38   where the pro-photographers and the journalists

00:03:42   have these digital SLRs. And they just hold the shutter down, and they just keep shooting

00:03:49   six to eight frames per second, every second, nonstop because the cards...

00:03:55   Yeah, that's what I was saying about it's really easy these days to cherry pick an image,

00:04:00   right? To find the one where Tim Cook is making that face because you've shot a thousand frames.

00:04:07   And I don't think that's the case, though.

00:04:09   Right.

00:04:09   And so in election ads, both sides do it.

00:04:15   Here's one where it's not really a partisan thing,

00:04:17   but they tend to find an unflattering photo

00:04:18   of the opponent to put in the ad if it's an attack ad.

00:04:22   And a lot of times, I think it's very obvious

00:04:24   that you can tell that it's just one of those-- everybody knows

00:04:28   it when you're going through your family photos

00:04:30   and you say, oh, look at that sunset.

00:04:32   Here, you guys stand right there.

00:04:34   I'll take a couple photos.

00:04:35   and like the middle one, you know, somebody, you know,

00:04:37   one of the subjects in your family just looks horrible.

00:04:40   Just absolutely like--

00:04:42   The classic mid-blink, right?

00:04:44   Right.

00:04:45   You know, it's like you look like you've been

00:04:46   smoking bongs all day because your eyes are, you know,

00:04:49   halfway shut and it's like--

00:04:50   Right.

00:04:51   Or like, you know, like the person was, you know,

00:04:54   they know that you're taking a couple of photos

00:04:56   and they were trying to hold their eyes open

00:04:57   for the first one and then it just feels like

00:04:59   there's something in there.

00:05:00   So they make like a weird blink to like clear their eyes,

00:05:02   hopefully before you shoot the next shutter,

00:05:04   but in fact it's mid-shutter and they just look nutso.

00:05:07   I don't think that's Tim Cook in this scenario.

00:05:10   It looks to me like that was--

00:05:12   - No.

00:05:12   Like I said, that is how I would feel in that situation.

00:05:17   I don't, you know, it's like, uh.

00:05:20   And it's, you know, Ben Thompson made a good thing

00:05:25   in his, a good point in his newsletter

00:05:28   and that really struck me was that Trump is saying,

00:05:34   "Oh, we want to help you all." Well, there's a flip side to that, right? What happens if he does

00:05:40   not want to help you, right? He's already, what is it, last week or maybe earlier this week,

00:05:50   where he put out that tweet about canceling a Lockheed order and they're stock tanked.

00:05:56   Yep. And he's got some power now. And you don't want that power to affect your shareholder value.

00:06:09   The week before he was complaining about an Air Force One order for, or an Air Force order for

00:06:16   a new Air Force One, you know, the current Air Force One. And you know, if you're like,

00:06:24   This is one of those things that I knew, but I find Air Force One to be a fascinating thing,

00:06:29   as like a history geek and just someone who's a—I was about to say, I am! I'm a proud American,

00:06:36   and I like certain aspects of it, and Air Force One's a cool thing. But one of the things I've

00:06:40   always known is that Air Force One is not an airplane, a single airplane. I think there's

00:06:46   two of them. But Air Force One is the official designation of the one that's carrying the

00:06:53   president. So, right, like if the president of the United States is like sitting in the

00:06:57   Oval Office, there is no Air Force One. There are two planes that could be Air Force One,

00:07:02   but it becomes Air Force One when the president of the United States is on the plane, and

00:07:07   then it gets that official designation. And that the two that they have right now were

00:07:12   commissioned under the Reagan administration, and I believe George H. W. Bush was the first

00:07:18   to fly them. So these planes have been in use for the original George Bush, Bill Clinton,

00:07:25   George W. Bush, and Barack Obama, and they will be the ones that Trump gets. The new

00:07:33   ones that the Air Force is looking to commission would not be ready until either the very,

00:07:39   very, very tail end of an eight-year Trump administration, which, let's face it, whenever,

00:07:43   you know, if we get eight years of Trump, we ain't gonna be on Earth to fly.

00:07:47   Yeah, I don't want to think about that.

00:07:48   Or is his successor.

00:07:50   And anyway, Trump bitched about the cost of these planes,

00:07:53   and Boeing's stock tanked.

00:07:59   Not tanked and didn't recover, but he tweets and stocks move.

00:08:03   It's a fact.

00:08:04   I mean, in between the joking about it

00:08:06   and the partisanship of it, I mean,

00:08:08   there's just no denial that when the President of the United

00:08:10   States comes out and says he'd like

00:08:13   to cancel the $5 billion order for Air Force One,

00:08:17   that's going to have an effect on the company.

00:08:18   Yeah, I read the other day that on Bloomberg now, the Bloomberg terminals that the market uses to

00:08:25   keep track of news has Trump's tweets on it now. They just feed Trump's tweets into the Bloomberg

00:08:31   terminals. Because it's important to know about them immediately.

00:08:34   Exactly. It moves the economy. And it's like, "What? Jesus."

00:08:42   So now, uh, I let me read from this cause I actually wrote to Ben, you know,

00:08:48   Ben's on the show all the time and he's a friend. Uh, and I told him, I thought

00:08:51   his take was excellent. It was, I filed it under the, uh, I wish I had, uh,

00:08:57   thought of it, but that exactly what you said that, that the, Hey, I'm here to help you folks

00:09:03   do well. That's actually an actual quote from him. I'm here to help you folks do well. And

00:09:07   we're going to be there for you. Um, yeah, it's

00:09:11   It's a massive violation of economic... I'm reading from Ben's email. "Government ought to be

00:09:17   setting and enforcing the rules of the game, not actively helping one of the teams." It's a recipe

00:09:23   for not just corporate accuracy and the inevitable corruption that comes with it,

00:09:30   parentheses, this is where I note that Trump's children attended the meeting,

00:09:34   and parentheses, but the closing off of opportunity to the unknown companies that might

00:09:41   challenge those large enough to be quote helped. This should be of particular concern to the

00:09:47   startup ecosystem. And I can't say it any better than that. I think it's exactly right.

00:09:52   That it's that's, you know, and again, you say, you know, there's there's positives and

00:09:57   negatives to every system of government, but you know, part of the gist of a democratic

00:10:05   nation is that the role of government, I think this is, again, I don't think this is a

00:10:13   partisan viewpoint, I think it's just a statement of fact that kids learn in elementary school. The

00:10:19   role of the government is to keep a fair level playing field. Yeah, it's all about fairness.

00:10:24   Exactly. It's all about fairness, and that's the discussion about diversity too. It's about

00:10:32   fairness. Right. You know, protecting the idea that the role of the president is to protect the

00:10:37   10 biggest corporations in tech is the opposite of it because the whole point is that it's healthy

00:10:42   for, for example, you know, like in, uh, if this meeting had been held in 1981, AT&T would have

00:10:48   been one of the, would have been the, probably the company, right. Yeah. Um, you know, and the fact

00:10:54   that they, yeah, and it goes against the competition, right. You know, you look at Apple

00:10:58   Apple Maps is getting better because it's competing against Google Maps.

00:11:04   And Android is getting better because it's competing against the iPhone, right?

00:11:09   That competition and having that competition be fair is what makes it work, right?

00:11:15   If somebody comes along and says, you know, "Well, hey, Tim Cook, you know, he's gay.

00:11:23   Maybe Google's better," right?

00:11:26   little or whole what did you're not competing on a fair playing field at

00:11:31   that point

00:11:33   and i think everybody intact would have a problem that ever been fact

00:11:36   hopefully

00:11:38   everybody's in the u_s_ without a problem with that

00:11:41   yet that's the the road that we're heading down right now

00:11:45   most uh...

00:11:47   most people intact this has been noted before this meeting the most of the

00:11:51   industry

00:11:54   was

00:11:56   on the side of Hillary Clinton in this election, for several reasons, but certainly largely

00:12:04   on immigration and on social issues like gay rights and stuff like that.

00:12:16   One of the people, though, I believe, the CEO of Oracle—what's her name? She's

00:12:22   actually in the same picture with with yeah she looks very happy to be there

00:12:28   she's very enthusiastic in her remarks before the the meeting and and then

00:12:34   after the meeting it was announced that she's joining his transition team in in

00:12:38   some form right and she's gonna be obviously some people there and selling

00:12:42   databases but my question is it there's a large number of people and I think it

00:12:51   has to be addressed who think that people like Tim Cook, Satya

00:12:59   Nadella from Microsoft, Larry Page from Google,

00:13:03   should not have attended this meeting.

00:13:05   They should have declined the invitation on the basis

00:13:09   that it was just dog and pony show,

00:13:11   and it was just a photo opportunity for Trump

00:13:13   and his children and his transition team

00:13:17   to have these people parade in front of the media.

00:13:20   I mean, there's a reason why the media was there

00:13:21   and that the photographs were taken and it wasn't,

00:13:24   certainly could have been held privately

00:13:25   if they wanted it to, it was not.

00:13:26   It was held publicly,

00:13:28   certainly not for the benefit of those who were invited.

00:13:32   It was only for the benefit of Trump

00:13:34   and his transition team.

00:13:35   I don't see how that's disputable.

00:13:37   Should they have declined the invitation?

00:13:40   On the basis of it being a form of protest against Trump

00:13:44   and what he campaigned on and what he's trying to do.

00:13:49   I think that they're playing a longer game here. Yes, it is a PR opportunity. In fact,

00:13:53   you know, they used that PR opportunity to take a swipe at Twitter, right? Just the whole

00:13:59   Crooked Hillary thing. And yeah, I don't think you want to, it's not a matter of agreeing

00:14:09   with him at this point. I think it's pretty safe to say.

00:14:13   Pete: Oracle's CEO is named Safra Katz, by the way. I want to get that out there.

00:14:18   So before the meeting, Safra Katz, the one who has joined his transition team, while

00:14:23   remaining at Oracle CEO, I should add, her quote was, "I plan to tell the president-elect

00:14:28   that we are with him and will help in any way we can."

00:14:33   And my take on during Fireball was that that sounds a lot like I'm ready to spit shine

00:14:38   his shoes.

00:14:41   ready to help in any way we can is, and with him, are pretty unequivocal statements of

00:14:49   support which I don't think are supporting. And compare and contrast that, and I pointed

00:14:53   this out on Daring Fireball, I think Tim Cook, and unsurprisingly so, was very, very precise

00:15:01   in his on-the-record remarks. So what they did is they started the meeting by going around

00:15:08   table and introduced themselves. And Tim Cook, all he said was, "Tim Cook, very good to be here."

00:15:13   Not very glad, very good to be here. "And I look very forward to talking to the President-elect

00:15:21   about the things that we can do to help you achieve some things you want." End of statement.

00:15:28   He's not raising a stink. It's all polite on the surface. I'm sure in the moment,

00:15:37   as it went around the table, it went on. But if you think about those words precisely, in particular,

00:15:41   the difference between "we're with you and ready to help in any way we can" from Oracle versus

00:15:47   "we help you achieve some things you want."

00:15:51   Tim Cynova Like I said, they're playing a longer game here, right? And they've played games with

00:15:55   the federal government before, right? The last year with the, you know, the whole iPhone FBI

00:16:00   thing, right? They're, you know, they know that this is not just going to end, you know,

00:16:06   with a snap of the fingers.

00:16:07   Well, and there was also, now that there are the--

00:16:09   it's inevitable, now that they are the biggest--

00:16:13   at least for now, the biggest company by market cap.

00:16:16   And there's only a handful of companies

00:16:18   within spitting distance, Alphabet being, I think,

00:16:22   number two.

00:16:24   ExxonMobil looks like they might have a good eight years,

00:16:26   four years at least.

00:16:27   Mm-hmm.

00:16:30   But now that they're big, now that they're big,

00:16:32   now that they're big, though, they're obviously

00:16:35   in the crosshairs of antitrust type stuff,

00:16:39   which we saw with the iBooks thing,

00:16:41   which I roll my eyes at because of the whole fact

00:16:44   that the iBook store was never the dominant seller.

00:16:48   They were.

00:16:49   - Yeah, that's--

00:16:50   - They were, at every point along the way,

00:16:52   way smaller than Amazon.

00:16:54   But I would almost point that as that was Amazon.

00:16:57   It was Amazon who played the Justice Department,

00:16:59   and it was Apple's sort of disinterest

00:17:03   and uninvolvement in that game

00:17:07   that let them be painted in that corner.

00:17:09   - I think that's where they started realizing

00:17:10   that Washington is a game, right?

00:17:13   - Right.

00:17:13   - That's--

00:17:14   - Right, because it's true.

00:17:15   It's beyond, you know,

00:17:17   Amazon had the Justice Department's ear.

00:17:19   And I'm not saying it's corrupt.

00:17:21   I'm saying that it was a mistake.

00:17:23   - We look at that situation purely from technical,

00:17:25   a technical point of view, right?

00:17:28   That, you know, we're engineers, right?

00:17:30   we see who's making what money

00:17:33   and what kind of money they're charging

00:17:36   and how the system works.

00:17:37   And that's not how Washington works at all.

00:17:42   It's more emotions and politics and leverage

00:17:46   and that kind of thing.

00:17:48   So yeah, in fact, that's probably what this,

00:17:52   they went into this meeting with,

00:17:54   it's like, okay, how am I gonna survive

00:17:59   what's going on here, right?

00:18:01   Let's, you know, number one,

00:18:03   I mean, did everybody who attended that meeting

00:18:05   know who else was gonna be there?

00:18:07   - I believe so, yes. - Yeah.

00:18:09   And it's interesting.

00:18:12   - Especially since it was such a small invitation list.

00:18:16   - Yeah, I found it interesting, you know,

00:18:18   of the invites, three of them were women.

00:18:21   Ginny Rometty, the CEO Oracle, and Sheryl Sandberg.

00:18:27   - All right.

00:18:28   - Right, Zuckerberg did not attend.

00:18:29   Sandberg attended as the representative of Facebook.

00:18:33   Which I think is, I don't even think it was

00:18:38   just to seat a woman at the table.

00:18:42   I think that my understanding,

00:18:44   again, I don't follow Facebook anywhere near as closely

00:18:46   as I do Apple or some other companies.

00:18:48   But I think it's representative of her role there.

00:18:53   I think it's very fair to say that she is to Zuck

00:18:57   what Cook was to Steve Jobs.

00:18:59   - Yep.

00:19:00   - That more than, a lot more than a typical COO,

00:19:04   more of a partner.

00:19:05   I've said this many times on the show, many, many times,

00:19:09   but I believe it as much now as I ever did,

00:19:12   that during, especially, I would say,

00:19:16   like from the iPhone on especially,

00:19:18   but at some point, I believe, well, maybe even before that,

00:19:23   but at some point, Cook clearly had Jobs' trust,

00:19:27   And I really do think that if you described Tim Cook's day

00:19:30   to day activities at Apple to somebody who didn't know

00:19:33   the company and you said, what position do you think

00:19:35   this person has, that most people would say,

00:19:36   well, that sounds like he's the CEO.

00:19:38   That Steve Jobs was really more like a day to day

00:19:41   head of product and Tim Cook ran the company.

00:19:45   And I think Sheryl Sandberg has that same role

00:19:47   where Zuckerberg can focus his time entirely on product

00:19:52   and she handles all this other stuff that needs to be

00:19:56   handled when you're as big and influential as Facebook.

00:19:59   - And the advantage for those people who are charged

00:20:02   with the innovation and developing the product

00:20:04   is that they get to think about things

00:20:06   that are important to them.

00:20:07   And there's a lot of stuff about running a company

00:20:11   that people like that don't wanna do, right?

00:20:15   So they're essential in that regard, right?

00:20:18   That they're the ones that keep the machine running.

00:20:23   And that's probably a more appropriate person

00:20:28   to send to a meeting with Trump

00:20:29   than somebody who's innovative and passionate

00:20:34   and potentially gonna say something

00:20:38   that's damaging to the company.

00:20:40   - Well, here's this.

00:20:42   So I wrote this, and I don't like to trot out

00:20:45   the what if Steve Jobs were still around thing too often,

00:20:48   'cause I think it can be so overused.

00:20:51   But I do--

00:20:52   Oh, god, that would have been beautiful.

00:20:55   Well--

00:20:55   Well, probably not.

00:20:58   I had an interesting discussion on Twitter about it.

00:21:00   And I think everybody-- it was me and Matt Drance and Dr.

00:21:06   Wave from Pixar, a couple other people.

00:21:10   And I think we were all in complete agreement

00:21:12   that if Steve Jobs-- in the alternate universe

00:21:14   where Steve Jobs was still healthy

00:21:16   and was still at Apple-- if he were at that meeting,

00:21:20   it would have been fascinating.

00:21:21   at least as soon as the press left the room.

00:21:24   And then there were reports--

00:21:28   I will add that there were reports

00:21:30   that two of the attendees, Cook and Musk,

00:21:33   got private meetings with Trump afterwards.

00:21:36   So maybe the fireworks would have happened in that meeting

00:21:39   if Steve Jobs had a private meeting with Trump.

00:21:42   But there is absolutely no way--

00:21:46   damn the torpedoes.

00:21:48   there is no way Steve Jobs was kowtowing to Trump.

00:21:52   No.

00:21:52   And I don't think Cook kowtowed either.

00:21:54   No, no, no, no.

00:21:55   But I think the difference--

00:21:56   I think the difference, though, is

00:21:57   that Cook could bite his tongue and Steve Jobs couldn't,

00:22:01   I think.

00:22:01   That's what I'm saying about the passion that's

00:22:04   involved with innovation, right?

00:22:06   That's a much harder thing to hold back.

00:22:09   Tim Cook, he's a guy who negotiates contracts and stuff.

00:22:12   He knows when to shut up.

00:22:14   But I think there's a good chance--

00:22:16   and Dr. Wave and Durant, I think, agreed

00:22:19   that even in the alternate universe

00:22:20   where Steve Jobs is still at Apple,

00:22:22   Cook was the one who would go to that meeting

00:22:24   in the same way that Sheryl Sandberg went to.

00:22:25   - Exactly, yeah, no, no doubt in my mind

00:22:27   that that would happen because, you know,

00:22:29   Steve Jobs was self-aware enough to know that,

00:22:32   yes, he had that streak and that streak

00:22:36   can be used for good, it can also be used for evil, right?

00:22:41   And, you know, that's--

00:22:44   Well, I think it's caution on the part of Apple.

00:22:47   And then on the other hand, I also

00:22:49   think it would have been a strategic way to not give Trump

00:22:53   what he wanted, which is that--

00:22:55   I mean, Tim Cook is well known.

00:22:57   I mean, he's the biggest--

00:23:00   he's very well known.

00:23:02   But he is nowhere near as famous as Steve Jobs.

00:23:04   Yeah.

00:23:04   No way there.

00:23:04   Yeah, the day before Kanye West was having a meeting with him,

00:23:07   right?

00:23:08   That's the level of person that he wants

00:23:10   to be associated with, right?

00:23:12   If you paid Gallup to go around the country and get 10,000 random people and ask them

00:23:18   who Tim Cook is, I don't know what the awareness is. It's certainly higher than most people

00:23:25   and most CEOs, but if you ask them who Steve Jobs is, it's practically up at like Walt

00:23:29   Disney levels.

00:23:30   Right. Yeah. They could describe what it looks like. Yeah. That's absolutely true.

00:23:38   sending Steve Jobs would have been a way to sort of lessen Apple's involvement in the

00:23:43   dog and pony show of it, whereas sending Tim Cook doesn't really do anything in that regard.

00:23:48   It's a little bit of a way to give Trump the finger too, right? Just, "No, we're

00:23:52   not sending our best person. We're sending our second best person."

00:23:56   Bezos was there. You said Ginni Rometty from IBM. Larry Page. Google had two people. Well,

00:24:06   Alphabet, whatever. Larry Page and what's his name? Schmidt, Eric Schmidt. And Microsoft

00:24:13   had two, Satya Nadella and then Brad, whatever his name is, their COO. It was weird that

00:24:21   Microsoft and Google got two and Apple only got one. And I wonder if that was by choice,

00:24:26   if Apple had—and Cook was like, "No, we don't need another one."

00:24:31   Yeah, that's what I was saying. It was interesting to know how that list of people was chosen.

00:24:39   Did they sort of self-choose, or were they asked specifically?

00:24:44   Like, did the companies get an invitation and they got to choose who to go, or were the invitations to people?

00:24:50   Probably just to the companies, I think.

00:24:52   Well, it looked like there were a fixed number of seats around that table, and that table kind of dictated how many people were going to be there.

00:25:00   we're gonna be there. So, you know, maybe that's why Jack Dorsey wasn't there. There just,

00:25:05   you know, wasn't another seat. You know, you don't know. I suspect not, though. It's the vindictive

00:25:11   angle. Well, there's two things, though. There's a couple angles on that. One, the angle in favor of

00:25:18   Dorsey being there would be that Trump has made more use of Twitter far more than he did Facebook.

00:25:23   I mean, and it's—I mean, I don't even think it's close. I don't even know if he'd—you know,

00:25:28   his campaign has a presence on Facebook, but personally, he's all Twitter.

00:25:32   His Facebook feed is not on Bloomberg. His Twitter feed is on Bloomberg. That's the bottom line.

00:25:39   But the other thing, too, is it does seem there's a case to be made—I think Gabe Rivera made it

00:25:47   first. Gabe is the guy who runs the excellent tech meme news aggregator—that it seems as though the

00:25:55   invitation list was sorted in order of market cap. That it was just not, you know, in terms

00:26:01   of who got invited or not, it's the, you know, six or seven biggest by market cap tech companies.

00:26:07   And by that measure, Twitter isn't even close because their stock is deeply depressed. I mean,

00:26:12   they're not even in the ballpark if market cap. And in their remarks, in Trump's own remarks at

00:26:19   at the meeting. He even mentioned that his way of bragging about the meeting was that

00:26:25   he said he didn't want to talk about the—he wasn't going to mention the hundreds of

00:26:28   companies that called asking for a seat at this table, and that there were ones—and

00:26:33   that Peter, meaning Peter Thiel, kept saying, "No, they're too small. They're too

00:26:36   small." And small meaning market cap, I think. So that was how they measured. So by

00:26:45   that measure, Twitter had no chance.

00:26:46   Yeah, so they weren't measuring by influence, they were measuring by money.

00:26:50   But is that smart? I don't know.

00:26:52   Well, that kind of goes back to Ben Thompson's point, right? You know, it's like the smaller

00:26:57   companies are often the ones that are doing more interesting stuff and the stuff that affects the

00:27:01   future and that drives the economy forward over the years.

00:27:05   Well, and the government certainly shouldn't play a central role in determining that.

00:27:08   Anyway, the other story that came out was that Twitter did not get invited because of

00:27:14   a dispute from this summer that Twitter sells these things called branded emoji.

00:27:20   They call branded emoji and we can, I can go on our side rant about the use of emoji

00:27:25   in that context in a moment, but the gist of it is that a sponsor can buy a hashtag

00:27:31   and then when people tweet that hashtag they automatically get a emoji or a little sticker,

00:27:40   an illustration behind it. So for example, right now if you tweet the hashtag #RogueOne,

00:27:46   you get a little Death Star image after the thing. Now I wasn't aware of this because,

00:27:53   like anybody with any kind of cooth or taste, I use a third-party Twitter client

00:27:58   on everywhere, oh just about everywhere, and these things are only visible in Twitter's own

00:28:04   Twitter apps and this stupid-ass ugly Twitter website. So I wasn't aware of this, but apparently

00:28:10   over the summer, the Trump campaign wanted to buy one for #CrookedHillary. And who even knows what

00:28:17   the icon would have been? I think they said they wanted it to be a bag of money flying away or

00:28:22   something like that. I don't know. And Twitter declined to accept the sponsorship. Apparently,

00:28:30   Jack, maybe Jack Dorsey himself put the nicks on it. And that the Trump campaign hasn't forgotten it.

00:28:39   I don't think that's it though. I'm not sure that it, I'm sure it didn't help because I think they

00:28:43   are vindictive, petty people, but I don't really, I think that the market cap angle was a bigger

00:28:51   one. I think, yeah, now that you mentioned that, it's probably Peter Thiel had more influence on

00:28:57   who was at that table than Trump himself. It really sounded, it sounded like Trump's own

00:29:03   remarks that it was really largely just, you know, there was a list of finalists and Trump

00:29:09   ran them by Teal and Teal said yes, yes, no, no, no, no, yes, yes, don't.

00:29:15   Or vice versa, right? Maybe Teal had the list and Trump...

00:29:17   Yeah, it sounded more like it was Teal who was given the yeses and no. I mean, obviously,

00:29:23   if Trump had said, "I want Twitter," it would have happened.

00:29:25   Yeah. As tech people, we have a different view on all of this. You know, it's like this Russian

00:29:31   hacking thing, right? It's like, you know, that to me is totally, you know, the first hint of that

00:29:38   was like, oh yeah, because anybody who's run a server has seen, you know, IP addresses from,

00:29:45   you know, the Eastern block pinging our servers, you know, looking for, you know, WP login pages,

00:29:52   PHP, my admin, you know, it's just, it's just like, they're just, they're looking for

00:29:59   weighs into what you're doing and you know that that that did you see the

00:30:05   effect of the presidential election is just you know it's you know again back to the fairness

00:30:13   argument you know how in the hell is that fair did you see that uh among all of the

00:30:20   just like series of unfortunate events that all just happened to break the wrong way for the

00:30:27   or the Clinton campaign.

00:30:28   It was just one thing after another,

00:30:30   and it just all broke the wrong way.

00:30:34   But one of them was that when John Podesta

00:30:37   got the phishing email, and it was forwarded on to somebody,

00:30:41   like, "What's going on with this?"

00:30:42   And the person on the staff who evaluated it

00:30:45   wanted to write back, "This email is illegitimate.

00:30:48   "John should change his passwords immediately."

00:30:52   But instead wrote inadvertently,

00:30:55   this email is legitimate, John should change his passwords immediately. And so apparently

00:31:00   because it said that he used the link in the email to change his password.

00:31:04   All right. And that this person who wrote, made this mistake and wrote legitimate where they

00:31:11   wanted to write illegitimate. Right. Yeah. A couple of letters on the keyboard that we've all

00:31:19   made the mistake with, is you know heartbroken and is apparently crushed.

00:31:27   And you know the flip side of it, okay yeah they hacked the Democrats, well do you think

00:31:34   they hacked the Republicans too? It's widely, that's actually, you know they haven't leaked,

00:31:41   but it's actually, I mean this isn't speculation, but it's actually.

00:31:44   Yeah, that to me is leverage and blackmail and all the other nasty shit. So, you know,

00:31:50   this is an issue. It's clearly a non-partisan issue, right?

00:31:58   Well, it should be, yes.

00:32:00   Yes, it should be. And if you try to say that this is, oh, the Democrats are just, you know,

00:32:05   sour grapes, it's like, oh, that's bullshit. This affects everybody, right? This is, you know,

00:32:11   again, it goes back to the fairness, you know, that our government should be a level playing

00:32:16   field. Yes, there are two teams, right? And they compete against each other. But if the fucking

00:32:22   playing field isn't level, we got a problem. I don't want to be too histrionic about it, but

00:32:28   it does fundamentally come down to whether the parties see themselves as two opposing parties

00:32:36   within one nation or they view each other as their enemies. And the Democrats clearly still

00:32:44   see the Republicans as their opposition and the Republicans see the Democrats as their enemy.

00:32:49   And that's, again, I don't mean to be histrionic. It sounds, if you happen to be of conservative

00:32:55   bent and you think that that's just me being a liberal, you can see it in the polls,

00:32:58   where a poll came out today of what's your net positive or negative on the following people. And

00:33:04   and they asked a survey of Republicans in the United States.

00:33:08   It was like Barack Obama was a negative 64, net negative.

00:33:14   Hillary Clinton was a net negative 77,

00:33:17   and Vladimir Putin was negative 10.

00:33:20   (laughing)

00:33:21   - Right.

00:33:22   - So Vladimir Putin is 54 points more popular

00:33:27   among Republicans than Barack Obama.

00:33:30   I mean, it's no joke or kidding or exaggeration

00:33:34   that the Republican Party largely sees the Democrats as more of their enemy than they do the

00:33:41   Russians, which is nuts, especially for people of our age where the Republicans were the ones

00:33:49   who were the hardline realists. Oh, geez, I was just gonna say, you know, Ronald Reagan is rolling

00:33:54   over in his grave. Well, as a kid and a teenager, when I first, you know, became politically aware

00:34:00   and I was a news junkie, I viewed myself more as a Republican than a Democrat because I thought that

00:34:06   the Republicans were the party of, you know, to put it succinctly, the party of the cold hard truth

00:34:15   and that the Democrats were more of a saw what they wished for party.

00:34:20   You know, and that the main issue at the time wasn't something like climate change

00:34:27   or a few other things where it comes up,

00:34:31   but climate change is a perfect example today,

00:34:33   where one party is looking at facts

00:34:35   and the other party is just believing

00:34:37   what they want to be true.

00:34:38   But at the time, the preeminent issue was the Cold War,

00:34:42   because it was, hey, if this turns out poorly,

00:34:45   we're all dead.

00:34:47   - We're screwed, yeah.

00:34:48   - Right, we're all dead.

00:34:49   - This is a game with no winners.

00:34:52   - And it seemed to me like the Republicans were the,

00:34:56   I think history has shown it to be true, that the Republicans were the ones who looked at it with,

00:35:01   you know, just—

00:35:03   Cold hard facts, yeah.

00:35:05   Right. So it's ridiculous to me that they've now become the party that's like, "Ah, Russia,

00:35:11   good people!" Well, maybe they are good people, but Russian government leadership, "Ah, good people!"

00:35:17   Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, that they have to, you know, it's a win-at-all-cost

00:35:26   kind of situation for them, right? And the problem I have is that those costs are going up

00:35:32   in ways that hurt our society and hurt our government. I mean, I'm at odds with many people

00:35:40   in my family now because of this. I'm sure that's true for a lot of people. And it sucks, but, you

00:35:48   know, they had to vote for their Republican person because, you know, and the fact that

00:35:55   the people that are celebrating the Trump win include the Ku Klux Klan and evangelical

00:36:10   Christians in the same group. I mean, what is wrong there? All right. Well, you start to get

00:36:16   get the feeling that maybe the evangelical Christian base,

00:36:20   maybe Christianity isn't their,

00:36:24   you just start to think maybe it's not their top priority.

00:36:28   - Our faith that people are inherently good, we're screwed.

00:36:35   - Well, let me use that as a segue to talk about

00:36:40   Harry's Razors.

00:36:42   This is, now look, this show's coming out tonight,

00:36:44   December 16th.

00:36:45   This is a gift that you can get.

00:36:47   You've got time.

00:36:48   If you're listening to this show tonight on the 16th,

00:36:51   you can even still get ground shipping.

00:36:53   After tonight, you're gonna have to pay for air shipping.

00:36:56   But you can get this as a gift for the holidays still.

00:36:59   You gotta act.

00:37:00   I hope you're listening to this show

00:37:01   while it's hot off the press.

00:37:03   Press it onto the 45 record

00:37:04   or whatever you're using to listen to this show.

00:37:07   But if you act quick, you can do it.

00:37:10   You can go to harrys.com and get an order in.

00:37:15   Now, why would this make a good gift?

00:37:17   Well, one of the reasons is it's a great product.

00:37:19   I've said this before.

00:37:19   They make nice handles, really, really great.

00:37:22   Nice blades.

00:37:23   They own their own razor blade factory.

00:37:24   This is how they get the prices down.

00:37:26   This is how they keep the quality up.

00:37:28   They're not just like buying white label razor blades

00:37:31   and putting Harry's name on them.

00:37:32   They own a razor blade factory over in Germany.

00:37:35   They make their own.

00:37:36   There's no middlemen, no distributors,

00:37:39   no markup on the way to retail.

00:37:43   It's just they make 'em.

00:37:44   They package them, they sell them to you.

00:37:47   So it's a great product.

00:37:48   And they've got good shaving cream and stuff like that.

00:37:51   They've got, what do they have here?

00:37:52   A limited edition set.

00:37:53   If you haven't heard of them before,

00:37:55   you can get this set.

00:37:58   It comes with a razor handle of your choice,

00:38:00   shaving cream, replacement blades,

00:38:02   and a nice little travel cover.

00:38:04   They have something called the Winston set

00:38:06   that includes an engraveable chrome handle

00:38:08   if you want to add a personalized touch.

00:38:11   The other reason these things make a nice gift

00:38:14   is that the packaging is so nice.

00:38:16   So you can wrap this up and when people open it,

00:38:18   it's not like you're giving them one of these

00:38:20   blister pack razor blades that you'd get at a drug store

00:38:23   where it looks, you know, this looks like you've bought them

00:38:25   like a nice thing.

00:38:26   Like even if, you don't even know what's inside.

00:38:28   It's just like this cool box.

00:38:30   It's not like a blister pack where you've got to go get

00:38:32   a razor blade just to open the damn thing up.

00:38:34   It's a nice box with a nice lid.

00:38:36   I've said before, it's the type of packaging

00:38:39   that's so good that I feel bad throwing it out

00:38:41   and I have to defeat my sort of natural inclination

00:38:44   to be a pack rat and keep it.

00:38:45   Like why in the world would I keep an empty box

00:38:47   that had razor blades in it?

00:38:49   Stupid, but it's so nice, it always pains me

00:38:52   as I toss it into the bathroom trash can.

00:38:55   It's a great, great product.

00:38:56   So if you're listening tonight,

00:38:59   you can still get ground shipping,

00:39:01   otherwise you gotta pay for air shipping

00:39:04   if you wanna get this as a gift.

00:39:06   But you can go to harrys.com

00:39:08   and you can use the code talk show,

00:39:09   just plain talk show, know the,

00:39:11   and you'll get five bucks off if you use that code

00:39:15   at checkout, talk show, know the at harrys.com.

00:39:18   Go there, check it out.

00:39:20   If you've got anybody on your list

00:39:22   who needs a last minute gift,

00:39:23   you can hurry up and get that in.

00:39:25   My thanks to them.

00:39:26   Great product.

00:39:28   All right, I'm done talking about politics.

00:39:31   Let's have fun.

00:39:31   - Yeah, thank you.

00:39:33   - Trump stuff is no fun.

00:39:35   - Well, it's no fun, but we've gotta deal with it.

00:39:38   - We gotta deal with it.

00:39:38   You can't put your head in the sand,

00:39:39   And that's the reason why I think,

00:39:41   that's the reason I think I just put it both on this topic.

00:39:44   That's the reason why I think it was right

00:39:46   that Tim Cook and Jeff Bezos and Satya Nadella

00:39:48   and whoever else went to the meeting,

00:39:50   is you can't put your head in the sand.

00:39:52   You can't just put your fingers in your ears

00:39:54   and go, "La la la, I don't want this guy

00:39:56   "to be the president."

00:39:58   You gotta look at it.

00:39:59   You gotta stare it right in the eyes,

00:40:01   pretending that it didn't happen.

00:40:02   - Exactly, stay angry and don't let it get normalized.

00:40:06   Because this is not normal.

00:40:08   no matter, you know, anybody who says it's all, you know,

00:40:11   it'll all play out well.

00:40:12   And I was like, no, this is not gonna play out well.

00:40:15   I just hope, I hope we're around in four years

00:40:17   to have another election.

00:40:20   Because you know, you see this shit happening

00:40:22   with you know, China right now.

00:40:23   It's like, oh, Jesus, this is not where we wanna go.

00:40:28   It's like, for my parents' generation,

00:40:30   that happened in Cuba, right?

00:40:32   And people freaked out.

00:40:35   Well, hey, guess what?

00:40:36   It's this generation's chance

00:40:38   to have that little freak out moment.

00:40:40   But yeah, let's not talk about politics anymore.

00:40:42   - I've got one thing that's even less fun.

00:40:44   It's even less fun than Trump,

00:40:46   and I have to talk about it.

00:40:48   No fun at all.

00:40:49   Super Mario Run came out.

00:40:50   (laughing)

00:40:53   - And my God, it's got an in-app purchase.

00:40:56   Oh my God.

00:40:57   - So Super Mario Run came out yesterday.

00:41:00   Here's how it works.

00:41:02   I think it was a mystery.

00:41:02   I don't think it was announced how exactly,

00:41:05   I think the only thing we knew was that it was gonna be a free download with a couple of levels to play for free

00:41:08   And then you'd have to buy it

00:41:10   So the way it works is free download you get three levels to play after that you need to buy it and it's ten bucks

00:41:16   But the way that they're doing the in-app purchase is such that the ten bucks is per device

00:41:21   I think I don't think I think if I had an iPad, I think I'd stuff

00:41:25   I've I've heard a complaint from one of my colleagues Sean Heber

00:41:29   It said that he had to buy it for himself and his three kids

00:41:34   He's got three boys that want to play it and you know, it's a $40 game for him now from Nintendo's perspective

00:41:40   That's the way it's always worked

00:41:42   Right, if you if you have a 3ds and your kids have a 3ds and you want to play this game

00:41:49   You could you know at the same time you could you'd all have to buy your own version of it now

00:41:55   When it was cartridges you could like share the cartridge

00:41:58   But then only one of you could play it at a time and there's no way to do that with an in-app purchase

00:42:03   You can't have an in-app purchase that says your whole family can use this app

00:42:06   But only one of you can use it at a time just doesn't work that way

00:42:09   so from Nintendo's perspective this isn't that unusual and

00:42:13   They don't sell $10 games for the 3ds

00:42:17   This would be like a 40 or $50 game for the 3ds

00:42:19   But on the other hand before anybody even says it and writes to me don't write to me

00:42:23   I understand that even with the purchase this entire game is probably less expansive than a typical 3ds game that it's smaller

00:42:31   Whatever. I can't get ten bucks is so little

00:42:33   Honestly, I do get it and that there's family sharing we use it. We've got a lot of stuff on the family sharing here

00:42:40   In this particular case, I can't blame it. I I want Nintendo to make money on this I do

00:42:46   Yeah

00:42:49   I'd love to see a lot of game developers make money

00:42:51   But yeah, no argument from me that ten dollars is a per device is a premium price for an iPhone game

00:42:57   But honestly, I've played this game for a day now. It's a premium game

00:43:00   It is a premium game. So yeah, and and and the the problem right now though is that there are a lot of people who have been

00:43:07   Indoctrinated into the you know, well, I can earn coins to get what I want, right?

00:43:13   It shouldn't cost me anything and they're the ones that are complaining about, you know, just this game, right?

00:43:19   It's the I mean we'd all love it as developers. We would all love it if people just paid for the thing

00:43:24   Right. That's what we all want. Just just spend your money

00:43:29   If you like it buy it and

00:43:32   In instead we're jumping through all these hoops, you know doing you know

00:43:36   things that make people look like they're not spending money because we call them coins instead of dollars and you know, that's

00:43:44   It's all you know the deception and and you know kudos to the endo for just saying hey

00:43:51   It's gonna cost you ten dollars

00:43:54   Deal with it

00:43:56   Yeah, and the three levels that they let you play before you are asked for a nickel I think are indicative of the

00:44:04   The gameplay and they even show you on a there's like a complete level

00:44:10   they show you that there's six worlds of four levels each and

00:44:14   So you get through the first three levels of the first world before you have to pay to continue

00:44:18   You both have it

00:44:19   You both have a very fair

00:44:21   Idea of what the game is like to play and you also have a very fair idea of how much is unlocked

00:44:27   Right when you pay the ten bucks you to me it's a very fair deal and I think

00:44:34   You know again, you know and if you've got you know, somebody's out there surely has three or four kids, you know

00:44:41   And it's like hey, it's you know

00:44:43   You're telling me it's $60 purchase for my kids and my wife and I to play this I understand that you know that that's

00:44:49   it's a lot of money for an iPhone game.

00:44:52   But, you know, I'd much rather have Nintendo doing this

00:44:57   and having it as a fair upfront price

00:45:00   than to see Nintendo succumb to the, you know,

00:45:03   keep putting $2 in to buy a bag of coins to keep going,

00:45:07   you know, or to get past this log jam.

00:45:10   You know, this level is for all intents and purposes

00:45:13   unbeatable unless you've got a thousand coins

00:45:16   and you can only really have a thousand coins

00:45:17   if you pay us three bucks.

00:45:20   Or go watch a bunch of ads

00:45:23   or whatever the hell these other games make you do.

00:45:26   It's not like that.

00:45:27   And to me, as somebody, I'm not a diehard gamer.

00:45:32   I'm probably the opposite.

00:45:33   I actually probably spend a lot less time

00:45:35   playing video games than the average person my age.

00:45:39   And probably for someone who's interested in technology

00:45:41   and computers, I'm probably way at the bottom

00:45:43   in terms of how much time I spend playing games.

00:45:46   I get the impression you're probably the same as me.

00:45:49   - I went through my childhood

00:45:50   before Nintendo became a thing, right?

00:45:52   I don't get Mario or any of the, you know,

00:45:56   that whole '80s gaming thing,

00:46:01   because in the '80s, I was 20 years old

00:46:03   and had begun an adult life, so yeah.

00:46:07   - Do you have an Atari, or were you too old for Atari?

00:46:09   - Yeah, no, a friend of mine had an Atari,

00:46:11   but it was just the Pong

00:46:12   and all the other kinda crappy games.

00:46:15   And at the same time that that was happening,

00:46:19   I was also discovering computers.

00:46:21   So it's like, I could write my own computer games.

00:46:23   Why the hell am I sitting in front of the TV,

00:46:27   fiddling with this little dial?

00:46:28   It's like, oh man, I got a basic interpreter.

00:46:31   This is way better.

00:46:32   - Right, I understand the feeling exactly.

00:46:36   Yeah, I could be making something.

00:46:38   - And that's, and I'm glad it happened that way.

00:46:40   It made me who I am.

00:46:43   - Yeah, I have an on-off.

00:46:45   I've never been a huge Nintendo fan. I never liked I didn't like the NES and in my college years

00:46:50   there was the

00:46:53   Not the n64 super nintendo super nintendo was the one of the early 90s early and mid 90s

00:47:01   I had a sega genesis which was I thought the superior system

00:47:05   uh, at least for the type of games I wanted to play like john madden football and the

00:47:09   the nhl hockey game

00:47:13   and uh... sages version of mario was uh... sonic the hedgehog

00:47:17   uh... right now is the t_t_t_ scroller

00:47:20   uh... i did have an end sixty four which i liked a lot

00:47:24   uh...

00:47:25   later on

00:47:26   to probably the last console i really played a lot of our guest had original

00:47:29   xbox to i played that sometimes how old were you and jonas as a kid

00:47:34   when what

00:47:35   how old were you and playing these games

00:47:37   uh... sega genesis was my college years so that i'll take ninety one to ninety

00:47:41   six right

00:47:43   roughly, that was a 32-bit system or was it 16?

00:47:48   - So you're sitting in a dorm room,

00:47:51   it's a thing to party with, right?

00:47:53   - Yeah, exactly, it was a big dorm room thing.

00:47:57   And it's partly because the EA Sports games,

00:48:02   I don't even know that they had them for Nintendo

00:48:04   or Super Nintendo, and if they did, they were inferior.

00:48:07   Like the Sega Genesis was better at the sports games.

00:48:12   And that was what we all played each other.

00:48:13   That was what we played nonstop.

00:48:16   N64 was good though.

00:48:17   There was this Goldeneye game.

00:48:19   Anybody who had it knows exactly what I'm talking about.

00:48:21   And anybody, it was a 3D shooter and you'd play,

00:48:24   you could play against your roommate.

00:48:27   And it was split screen.

00:48:29   So you each got like, you'd split the screen.

00:48:32   Because it was a four to three screen, it was,

00:48:34   I forget if it was horizontal

00:48:36   and you got like a real wide angle thing

00:48:39   or if it was side to side.

00:48:40   I think it was--

00:48:41   I actually forget.

00:48:44   True story.

00:48:45   True story.

00:48:45   I had a roommate-- my first year after college,

00:48:47   I had a roommate, Don, and we played--

00:48:51   we had an N64.

00:48:52   And that was when the PlayStation first came out,

00:48:55   the original PlayStation.

00:48:57   And what we used to do was rent video games.

00:49:00   You could go to-- you had to get a disc.

00:49:02   So you'd go to Blockbuster, and you

00:49:03   could rent a game for four days for, I don't know,

00:49:06   five bucks, four bucks.

00:49:08   way cheaper than buying $60 games, right?

00:49:11   We didn't have the money to buy a bunch of $60 games.

00:49:13   The renting thing was awesome.

00:49:15   So we had an N64.

00:49:17   - Basically, you binge on the game

00:49:19   and you're getting the content for

00:49:23   10th of the price. - So we'd go to Blockbuster

00:49:28   and you'd look and like the PlayStation section

00:49:31   had all of these awesome games,

00:49:33   like at the time, realistic car racing games

00:49:37   and shooters and all of these awesome games.

00:49:41   And then the Nintendo section had like seven titles,

00:49:43   and most of them were like for little kids.

00:49:46   [LAUGHTER]

00:49:48   But then GoldenEye came out, and GoldenEye fixed everything.

00:49:51   Effectively, our N64 turned into a dedicated GoldenEye box.

00:49:56   It was a good one-player game.

00:49:58   It had a very long campaign where

00:50:00   you played James Bond going through the GoldenEye movie

00:50:03   scenario.

00:50:04   really good first player, you know, one player mode. And then the two player thing was just

00:50:09   unbelievably fun. Unbelievably fun. And eventually I got just every, it was one of the only games

00:50:14   I ever got pretty good at. And I got ever so slightly better than Don was like, this

00:50:19   is after maybe a whole year of playing. And I was always a fraction of a section a second

00:50:25   quicker than him. And it got to the point where he couldn't beat, you know, we used

00:50:28   to be like 50/50. And then it was, I somehow gained like I leveled up a little bit and

00:50:33   He couldn't beat me and one time he threw this controller out the window and we lived on the third floor

00:50:37   But it was the most satisfying victory ever right what could be more satisfying than making your friend throw his controller out the window

00:50:47   Yeah, but then at that point you're pretty much done with the game, right because the guy knows he can never win again

00:50:52   And you know, it's like okay. Why play?

00:50:55   Yeah, but anyway, then my other experience with Nintendo is we had the Wii the one the first, you know, not the Wii

00:51:01   We have the Wii U2 that we never played.

00:51:03   The Wii was great.

00:51:04   The one where you'd have the...

00:51:06   Basically the physical games were awesome.

00:51:09   Right.

00:51:10   It just got people moving around. I thought that was fun.

00:51:12   Right, and that was how Jonas learned to play video games.

00:51:14   We had that when he was, I don't know, three or four or something like that.

00:51:19   That's another one where you can throw the controller,

00:51:22   but not necessarily because you meant to.

00:51:25   Right.

00:51:26   We have these...

00:51:27   Jonas and I laugh about it because Jonas is very much into video games now

00:51:30   games now and he's almost 13, is that when we first started playing, there's a great,

00:51:36   great series of games, these LEGO games, where you play as a LEGO character from movies and

00:51:42   you go through and, you know, like the one that we played, the first one was the LEGO

00:51:48   Star Wars and it's this game and it had all six of the original Star Wars movies, meaning

00:51:54   the first three from the 80s, then the prequels.

00:51:59   And each one was broken up into six adventures.

00:52:03   So you had 36 adventures to go through from all of the Star Wars movies.

00:52:07   And you just play as two characters at the same time on screen.

00:52:09   And you go through and smash things up and take the bricks

00:52:13   and rebuild them into other things.

00:52:14   And it was very, very-- just very fun, very, very kid-friendly,

00:52:18   but very fun for me as an adult to play, too.

00:52:20   But the funny thing was that when we first started playing it--

00:52:22   I don't know if Jonas was three or four, probably around four, was that

00:52:26   It's sort of like an isomorphic perspective

00:52:32   Isometric, right? Yeah, isometric perspective the game and

00:52:36   Jonas just had tremendous trouble

00:52:39   Like if you had to walk on it, you had to get your character to walk on a cat walk diagonally, right?

00:52:45   Not even like a tightrope, but you know

00:52:47   But like a three character wide catwalk that was at a 45 degree angle

00:52:52   He would just keep falling off and it's one of these games read

00:52:55   You don't probably think he probably didn't have the spatial capabilities in his brain. Yeah, right, right

00:52:59   That's just right being able to say to project that

00:53:03   Into his mind. Yeah and and to transfer it into a movement with his thumb, right?

00:53:09   Oh, right

00:53:10   and it's one of these games or one of part of that part of what made it so much fun to play with a little

00:53:14   kid is that you don't run out of lives and have to start the level over. Every time you die,

00:53:20   you just lose some of the coins you've picked up, and it just shoots you back to, you know,

00:53:24   five feet away from where you died. You just keep respawning, and all you lose are these coins.

00:53:30   And when you finish the level with the most coins, it's an accomplishment. So, you know,

00:53:34   finishing without dying gives you more coins, so there's an advantage to not dying,

00:53:40   but you never actually have to start the level over. But there would be certain things where he

00:53:45   just spatially couldn't navigate. And I think I'm a pretty patient father, but eventually it's like,

00:53:50   "Just give me the controller." [laughter]

00:53:53   - "Dad's gonna help you out here." - Right. And it wasn't like getting him past a boss

00:53:59   villain. It was just getting him through a very narrow, hard-to-navigate little thing.

00:54:05   And it's just very--

00:54:07   it's very comical now when I try to play video games with him

00:54:10   because it's actually the opposite.

00:54:12   Yeah, I was going to say he's kicking your ass now, right?

00:54:15   Because he's young, he's got good eyesight, good reflexes.

00:54:19   Yeah, he's--

00:54:21   What was it?

00:54:21   It was a LEGO game, like LEGO Batman or something like that.

00:54:24   And I was like, I'll play that with you.

00:54:26   And I started playing, and it was clear

00:54:27   that I was holding him back.

00:54:29   Right.

00:54:31   And he's not going to say anything.

00:54:32   He loves you and everything.

00:54:34   He's not going to hurt your feelings.

00:54:35   but he's like, "Dad, just leave."

00:54:37   - I was like, "Remember when you'd be the one

00:54:39   holding me back?"

00:54:40   And he'd be, he'd laugh.

00:54:40   He had a good sense of humor about it.

00:54:42   But it was very clear that I was the one holding him back.

00:54:45   Anyway, I wish Nintendo the best.

00:54:48   I think they're going to do very well with it.

00:54:50   Complaints about the price aside.

00:54:52   It does seem like they're being very aggressive

00:54:53   on the trying to keep the,

00:54:55   whatever countermeasures they've taken against piracy.

00:54:59   It seems like they've done quite a bit.

00:55:02   One of them being, and here's the one

00:55:04   that's gonna affect honest people the most

00:55:06   is the game does not play

00:55:08   if you don't have a network connection.

00:55:10   I tested it, it's very true.

00:55:12   Like if you turn on airplane mode

00:55:13   and try to start the game, it says,

00:55:15   try to move somewhere

00:55:17   where you have a better network connection.

00:55:19   - Oh, that's not gonna play out well.

00:55:23   I mean, as soon as somebody,

00:55:25   it's like on launch day, you're not gonna notice that,

00:55:27   but over time, you're gonna be wanting to play it

00:55:30   in the subway, on an airplane.

00:55:33   airplane right yeah well and it's funny people have even pointed out that at the

00:55:37   announcement Miyamoto even said because it's totally playable one-handed that

00:55:43   it's great to play in a subway now maybe and you know maybe he's thinking of I

00:55:48   don't know I've never been to Tokyo but maybe Tokyo I wouldn't be surprised if

00:55:51   it is one of those cities where the subways even part you'd be good a cell

00:55:55   service yeah I noticed the last time up last trip to WWDC that that their cell

00:56:02   service in BART now, from the airport to downtown, you pretty much have a network connection

00:56:08   all the time.

00:56:09   All right.

00:56:10   But when this news came out that the game doesn't work without a network connection,

00:56:12   a bunch of readers wrote to me and just said, "Well, my kid has an iPod Touch."

00:56:18   Or the iPod Touch that an awful lot of kids have is a two- or three-year-old iPhone that

00:56:23   doesn't have a SIM card.

00:56:25   Just to hand me down, "Here's my—this was Dad's iPhone from two years ago.

00:56:30   take the self, just take the SIM card out and you've got to, you know, hand me down iPod touch.

00:56:35   Yeah, those devices.

00:56:37   Yeah, and car trips. That's another, you know, you know.

00:56:40   Yep, that's it. That's exactly it.

00:56:42   Do you want it? And then, okay, okay, well, you have to set up a Wi-Fi hotspot just so

00:56:46   the kids can play Nintendo.

00:56:47   Right. Right. It's like, no thanks.

00:56:52   Right. Okay, let's drain mom and dad's batteries so we can play Nintendo.

00:56:58   And I saw something about the fact that the game has a lot of it doesn't seem to run on a lot of jail breaks

00:57:04   uh, it seems which only makes me think that nintendo is specifically looking for signs of

00:57:11   Common jail breaks and is refusing to run

00:57:14   How are they gonna do that? That's a actually hard thing to do in a sandbox you've you know, yeah

00:57:20   Apple might have looked the other way

00:57:23   I wonder some of these things. I don't know

00:57:27   I don't want to know, you know, not knowing how it works or anything, but that would be my first reaction. It's like, hmm

00:57:33   Maybe there's my other question. My other question is

00:57:37   It's it is iOS exclusive right now. It is apparently coming to Android eventually

00:57:42   How long do you think until it comes out on Android?

00:57:44   and the

00:57:46   Google will probably want to use it like Apple did as a way to promote a new software release or something like that. I

00:57:54   Could see it happening at the next I/O

00:57:56   Or something, you know just like it played well at the iPhone 7 launch. It'll play well at some Google launch

00:58:03   So I think that that would be your answer

00:58:06   So maybe like six months, I don't know but is it all who's in six months? I don't know

00:58:10   Yeah, who knows? I mean, it's that the half-life for games these days is pretty

00:58:15   Pretty insane. It's it's like, you know Pokemon go right middle of summer. It was just everywhere

00:58:23   In fact, you know, we had a deck down at the beach where you know, I go every day

00:58:26   it's like there's there's one tree that everybody be standing under because that shade and

00:58:31   Pokemon characters

00:58:34   And it got to be kind of funny. It's like everybody walked by. Oh, yeah, that's the Pokemon spot, you know

00:58:38   And and you you know, you'd talk to people there. Oh, yeah

00:58:40   I'm waiting for the you know, you know the gym or whatever it is and oh my god

00:58:44   I saw a thing on I saw a thing on Twitter

00:58:46   I wish I had had it but it was the gist of it was somebody was like, oh my god

00:58:51   I can't believe they had to put this sign up. Somebody was in like a museum or something.

00:58:55   It was like a part where they were showing something really grave and serious. It was

00:58:59   like relics from a concentration camp or something like that. Something really, really grave

00:59:07   and serious. Like here's a bunch of artifacts from some kind of internment camp. I don't

00:59:12   think it was the Holocaust, but something like that though, where a bunch of people

00:59:15   were political prisoners and people died.

00:59:20   And it went on a long time.

00:59:21   And there was a sign up that said,

00:59:23   "Please no Pokemon Go."

00:59:25   - Right.

00:59:26   - 'Cause you can only imagine,

00:59:28   like a sign like that doesn't go up

00:59:29   unless people were doing it.

00:59:31   - Yeah. - You know, like somehow

00:59:32   they're like-- - Yeah, they're reacting

00:59:33   to something.

00:59:35   - Yeah, right.

00:59:36   - Well, I thought that in the middle of summer,

00:59:40   one of the thoughts I had was like,

00:59:42   what happens when it gets cold, right?

00:59:43   all these people going out hunting for Pokemon.

00:59:45   What the hell are they gonna do when it's raining

00:59:48   or snowing or middle of a hurricane or whatever?

00:59:51   And it's like, hmm.

00:59:54   So they launched that in a really good time

00:59:57   and maybe they had the expectation

01:00:01   that it's gonna have six great months and then who knows?

01:00:06   I think we're in the who knows right now.

01:00:09   It's like maybe Mario on iOS

01:00:12   is going to be the same way. I suspect not. There's a lot to be said for that brand.

01:00:18   Same is true with Pokemon. It's a huge brand. A lot of nostalgia in that brand. I mean,

01:00:26   that's the fact that you were talking about all your past consoles and the games you played.

01:00:34   nostalgia is a powerful thing. And, you know, that's, it's interesting too that Mario is

01:00:45   nostalgia that's getting passed on, right? There's a generation of kids now who are gonna grow up and

01:00:51   their first encounter with Mario is gonna be, you know, on their iPhone or their iPad or their

01:00:59   iPod Touch, you know, that's their beginning.

01:01:02   And where's it gonna go from here?

01:01:04   Who knows?

01:01:05   - Yeah, the comparison, I think, is, you know,

01:01:08   and it's obvious one that a thousand people have made before

01:01:11   is to Mickey Mouse and the Donald Duck

01:01:15   and the whole gang of characters that is so old

01:01:20   that Disney literally has to keep petitioning

01:01:22   the US federal government to keep extending

01:01:25   the copyright expiration date

01:01:28   because they're so old that they would have already passed

01:01:32   into the public domain by now,

01:01:33   and yet are completely relevant and popular.

01:01:36   - And a good source of revenue.

01:01:39   - Right, well.

01:01:40   - I mean, they're usually popular for a reason, right?

01:01:45   - Well, and one reason why that they've remained popular

01:01:48   is that even under Walt Disney,

01:01:50   I think it started with Walt,

01:01:51   was don't be afraid to move them into new media.

01:01:55   Just keep going up with technology.

01:01:57   Don't say, well, Mickey's a movie star,

01:02:00   so he's never gonna be on TV.

01:02:02   No, we're gonna have a TV show

01:02:03   and get everybody to watch it.

01:02:06   I mean, it's one of my favorite stories,

01:02:07   and it's one of the best comparisons

01:02:09   between Walt Disney and Steve Jobs that I've ever seen,

01:02:12   was that he was so willing to let go of the past

01:02:14   and always hungry for the future,

01:02:16   which was the, it goes against human nature.

01:02:19   I mean, it even ties back to our discussion on Trump

01:02:22   and those tech leaders,

01:02:23   and Trump seeing his job as president

01:02:25   as protecting the current top companies,

01:02:28   as opposed to just keeping it fair

01:02:30   and letting the revolution happen.

01:02:32   Walt was, in the '50s when TV started to become a thing,

01:02:36   the movie studios were totally disdainful of television

01:02:40   and saw it as a lesser medium.

01:02:41   I mean, we saw that until,

01:02:44   really up until just a handful of years ago

01:02:46   where being an actor in the movies

01:02:50   was seen as way more serious than being an actor on TV.

01:02:53   It really took until the last handful of years and shows like The Sopranos and Mad Men and Westworld,

01:03:00   and Game of Thrones, where people see TV as being as good or even better than movies.

01:03:05   Walt Disney, unlike all the other Hollywood studios, the way that Hollywood attacked the TV

01:03:11   was by... and part of it is cool. I love CinemaScope and 70mm Prince. That's when movies switched from

01:03:19   the 4.3 aspect ratio. 16 to 9 and the bigger, the bigger CinemaScope 2.1 widescreen and they built

01:03:28   bigger screens that had curves and they'd start shooting in 70 millimeter. It was, "Okay, you want

01:03:33   to have a little dinky, rinky-dink, you know, 19-inch black and white display with a lot of static

01:03:39   on it. Well, we're gonna, you know, start shooting in color and we're gonna make it bigger." And that's

01:03:43   a fine response, but it certainly didn't stop the march of progress with TV. Walt Disney, on the

01:03:47   other hand was like, we'll keep making movies, but hell yeah, I want to I want to be I want

01:03:52   Mickey Mouse on that TV.

01:03:53   He I've always loved that quote of his where, you know, he made movies, so that he could

01:03:59   make more movies, right? I know he made money. So he could Yeah, exactly. He made money on

01:04:04   movies so that he could make more movies. And that's, TV was just another way for him

01:04:07   to make money to make more cool things. Right. Right. And that's why I don't, you know, like,

01:04:14   Nintendo I hope they do really well on on iOS because if they do they're gonna do more

01:04:18   And they'll embrace don't make we don't make movies to make money. We make money to make movies. There you go

01:04:24   Yes, and he met it, you know, you can roll your eyes, but he met it, right?

01:04:28   Time that in is the recent announcement that Nintendo has signed a big big long-term deal with Universal to get

01:04:36   Like Nintendo world into universals theme parks around the world. Sure

01:04:42   Makes sense, which I am I'm looking forward to tremendously. I don't you've probably never been there but at Universal in Florida

01:04:49   They have a big I don't know. I gotta be billion-dollar deal with the Harry Potter franchise, right?

01:04:54   I've seen pictures of it. I've never been there. But yeah, it's and it looks great. I mean, yeah, we love nostalgia

01:05:00   We were a madman fan a

01:05:04   What ever wants to show mad madman Oh madman. Yeah, watch it. Yeah

01:05:10   Yeah, oh, yeah, right, of course, yeah Don Draper and and that's

01:05:14   That's probably where I got that from

01:05:17   Nostalgia it's delicate but potent. Yeah, Teddy told me that in Greek nostalgia literally means the pain from an old wound

01:05:25   It's a twinge in your heart for more

01:05:28   more powerful than memory alone

01:05:31   That's nostalgia, yep, that's good writing

01:05:35   yeah, that's the the one with the

01:05:39   Kodak slide. It was like the first season, but it's the best episode.

01:05:46   And you look at that Kodak thing, that was revolutionary at the time. And as kids growing

01:05:53   up, we didn't have iPhotos and swiping through. We had, "Oh, let's put up the screen and

01:06:00   stare at Dad's slides." And another example of a company that lost its way by protecting

01:06:08   what it had rather than going to its future. They were making all their money from film,

01:06:12   and they were... it's absolutely astounding when you look at how many of the foundations of digital

01:06:21   photography started at Kodak, and the people that, you know, in charge at Kodak patted the engineers

01:06:27   who had all these digital camera technologies ready to go, you know, and patted them on their

01:06:33   in their head and said, "Nice work, boys,

01:06:34   but we can't sell film."

01:06:36   - Yeah, well, Polaroid.

01:06:37   - We're not selling any film for digital cameras,

01:06:39   so keep that in the labs.

01:06:41   (laughing)

01:06:42   - It didn't work out so well for them.

01:06:43   - Exactly, it was actually Polaroid

01:06:45   who came up with the first digital camera.

01:06:47   Like, whoa, why didn't you guys follow through with that?

01:06:50   - Kodak had so much of it.

01:06:51   - Right, Polaroid and Kodak did so much work on it

01:06:54   and never took it to market

01:06:55   because it would have disrupted their own film business.

01:06:58   - Well, it's- - Bottom line.

01:06:59   - Xerox did the same thing, right?

01:07:01   - So there's a line of companies that we remember fondly

01:07:06   because they didn't do what Apple does,

01:07:10   which is kill your babies.

01:07:12   - Right, preaching to the choir here,

01:07:13   but in 2006, the single most important product

01:07:16   that Apple Computer made was their line of iPods.

01:07:21   And it was very clear to anybody who looked at the iPhone

01:07:25   with open eyes that, well, once you have one of these,

01:07:29   you'll never buy an iPod again.

01:07:30   Yep.

01:07:31   Except maybe the cheap no screen one

01:07:34   that you don't care about wearing in the pool, right?

01:07:37   The one that doesn't actually make the company money.

01:07:39   Right? Yeah.

01:07:40   At the same time, I don't think we appreciated

01:07:46   how important that camera was gonna be.

01:07:48   No, definitely not.

01:07:50   Because I mean, the first camera was like,

01:07:52   eh, it's okay. It was a piece of garbage.

01:07:53   Yeah, it's better than that feature phone I used to have,

01:07:57   but yeah.

01:07:59   No, but barely.

01:07:59   - I'll still carry my DSLR around.

01:08:03   Yeah, barely better, right?

01:08:05   It was more convenient though.

01:08:06   That was the thing that it was like, ah, right?

01:08:10   And Instagram and all this other stuff took off

01:08:13   because shit, it's always there.

01:08:16   - I just think that the time nobody,

01:08:20   maybe even Apple just didn't foresee how quickly cameras

01:08:25   that could fit in the space that was available,

01:08:27   theoretically, just however much space you want to devote

01:08:31   into a iPhone-sized device to the camera,

01:08:35   how good the image quality could be out of that camera.

01:08:37   I just don't think anybody really foresaw

01:08:39   what the next five years were going to be.

01:08:41   That first one, it's ridiculous.

01:08:42   I've said this before on the show.

01:08:44   Every time it comes up, I'm like,

01:08:46   "I don't think it even shot video."

01:08:47   And then I'm like, "No, wait, that's not possible."

01:08:48   And then I look it up and it's like,

01:08:49   "Yep, didn't even shoot shitty video."

01:08:53   Shot no video whatsoever.

01:08:55   And now, you know, it doesn't even fit in the case anymore.

01:08:58   And that's okay, right?

01:08:59   You know, we've got the camera bulge

01:09:01   because it's like, it's more important

01:09:04   to have that good camera

01:09:05   than it is to have that clean back line.

01:09:07   - I'm not gonna say it's okay.

01:09:08   I accept it.

01:09:09   - It's a compromise, right?

01:09:11   It's definitely a compromise.

01:09:13   But yes, we'd all love it if that back

01:09:16   was completely smooth,

01:09:17   but we also love the fact that it's not.

01:09:22   - I have, that's the one thing I don't know

01:09:23   what to think about with the Pixel.

01:09:25   have a Google Pixel.

01:09:26   And so Google Pixels, Google's way around that

01:09:30   was to have, they have no bump for the camera on the back,

01:09:33   but the entire device is slightly wedge-shaped.

01:09:37   So down at the bottom, it's thin,

01:09:40   and that's the thinness they like to talk about,

01:09:42   and up by the camera, it's thick.

01:09:44   And there's no one point where there's a bulge.

01:09:47   And it's not super, at a glance, you can't even tell,

01:09:53   but in your hand, it's obvious,

01:09:54   and it is sort of top heavy.

01:09:55   I have mixed feelings about that.

01:09:58   I do think, I don't wanna go too deep on the camera bulge,

01:10:01   but now that the iPhone 7 has been in my hands for what,

01:10:05   three months, October, November, December?

01:10:07   Yeah, about three months.

01:10:08   I do two little things that I really, really like about it.

01:10:14   And I know people keep saying

01:10:15   that it's the same industrial design,

01:10:17   but it's only at a glance.

01:10:19   The two little things that I really like,

01:10:20   number one, I like that this camera bump

01:10:23   is more of an honest camera bump, right?

01:10:26   - Yeah, absolutely.

01:10:28   I'm 100% with you there.

01:10:30   It's like, it looks like a bump.

01:10:34   - Right.

01:10:35   - And it is a bump.

01:10:37   - And they're still running those ads

01:10:38   that show the hero shot of the shiny jet black iPhone 7 Plus

01:10:43   where the entire central focus of the hero shot

01:10:49   is the big capsule sized camera bump on the back.

01:10:53   Like, you know, and it's perfectly lit and glossy

01:10:56   to highlight it.

01:10:57   And I just keep thinking, yeah, it's the complete opposite

01:10:59   of the original iPhone 6 ads where the articles

01:11:03   where Apple's product shots are hiding the bump,

01:11:06   you know, where they'd show it from the side.

01:11:08   - Yeah, you had to hunt for it on the Apple site

01:11:10   in order to see it.

01:11:11   Yeah, it was just, they just were pretending it wasn't there.

01:11:15   - The other thing I really like,

01:11:16   and I can't explain why I like it so much,

01:11:19   is that the volume buttons are no longer

01:11:22   in a channel on the side.

01:11:25   They're just two buttons that stick out of the side.

01:11:28   There used to be a little--

01:11:29   You can feel them.

01:11:30   Yeah, well, but--

01:11:31   I think they're easy to locate for me, at least.

01:11:34   But there was like a little channel dug in,

01:11:37   and the gap between the two volume buttons

01:11:39   was therefore more--

01:11:41   I don't know.

01:11:42   It just felt cheap to me on the iPhone 6 and 6S in a way

01:11:46   that I really like the volume buttons on this better.

01:11:50   But anyway, that's neither here nor there.

01:11:52   - Quick question, did you get the jet black?

01:11:54   - Yes, I did.

01:11:56   - Do you love it?

01:11:57   - I love it.

01:11:58   - I mean, I love being able to carry a phone

01:12:01   without a case again.

01:12:03   It's just like it's sticky in my hand

01:12:05   and that's all I wanted.

01:12:06   I don't, you know, yeah, I got the micro abrasions.

01:12:08   I hold it up here to the light.

01:12:10   I can see them, but I don't spend my time

01:12:13   looking at the back of the phone.

01:12:14   I spend my time holding the back of the phone.

01:12:16   It's just so clearly better there.

01:12:18   Yeah, and I think--

01:12:19   It looks awesome.

01:12:20   After three months of daily use, I

01:12:23   can project what it'll look like after two years.

01:12:25   I mean, I'll only use it for one year.

01:12:27   But I mean, what somebody who--

01:12:29   a normal smart person would do and use the phone for at least

01:12:32   two years, it's going to look fine.

01:12:34   It's not going to look perfect, but it looks fine.

01:12:36   And at a glance, it still looks nice, black, and shiny.

01:12:39   But it's the feel of it.

01:12:40   The feel is so much greater.

01:12:41   The other thing I can happily-- you know,

01:12:42   going back to the weather, that was my question in September.

01:12:46   It was like in September when I first felt it,

01:12:47   I was like, this definitely feels better to my touch.

01:12:50   But September was a warm month for us.

01:12:54   And so my hands had that, like, it was warm hands.

01:12:57   Now that it's freezing cold,

01:12:58   I can say it still feels better.

01:12:59   Even with very, very cold hands, it's not slippery.

01:13:03   Total win.

01:13:05   I recommend it wholeheartedly.

01:13:06   - Yeah, I mean, like I said,

01:13:09   it's just so nice to be carrying a phone

01:13:11   without a case anymore.

01:13:12   And that was the only reason I put it

01:13:15   on my five and my six is--

01:13:18   - I know a lot of people like that.

01:13:19   - It felt slippery, it really felt slippery.

01:13:21   And I mean, I've got big hands, right?

01:13:23   It's like, you know, shit falls out on me real easy.

01:13:28   - It's like, it's for you holding a phone

01:13:30   is like a normal person holding like a matchbook.

01:13:33   It easily just slips, you know.

01:13:36   - Yeah, the iPad mini is the right size.

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01:16:27   - I got a question for you.

01:16:29   - You can ask me anything, Craig.

01:16:31   - Could they make Daring Fireball a responsive web design?

01:16:38   Well, I could make during Fireball a responsive website.

01:16:40   I do think all of Squarespace's default templates are responsive.

01:16:43   Yeah, I bring that up because that's an important thing these days.

01:16:47   And I know, I know, that's a cheap shot, but—

01:16:50   No, it's not.

01:16:51   It's overdue.

01:16:52   It's overdue by years.

01:16:53   And the fact that it's overdue by years only contributes to the inertia of not updating

01:16:59   it.

01:17:00   Part of it's your fault, really, as much as anybody.

01:17:02   Oh, yeah, I'm sure.

01:17:03   back in 2007 when I found my first launch,

01:17:11   you gave me the meta tag that made Daring Fireball--

01:17:15   I've had to update that since because the way those meta

01:17:18   tags have worked for the viewport size.

01:17:22   The curse of Daring Fireball's existing design

01:17:25   is that it's one double tap away from being pretty good.

01:17:29   Yeah, that's right.

01:17:31   In large part, I would say at least 85%,

01:17:36   maybe probably around 85% of what it would look like

01:17:41   if it were responsive, just by double tapping the column.

01:17:44   - Yep.

01:17:45   But the thing that bugs me the most

01:17:47   is when I tap on the quoted part

01:17:49   and then the text around it falls out off the edges

01:17:54   and it's like, ah.

01:17:56   So, but yeah, you're close.

01:17:58   And yeah, I do remember that Nada tagged.

01:18:01   - It's your fault.

01:18:03   Right, if Daring Fireball had looked completely un--

01:18:06   - Do we wanna give everybody my email address

01:18:08   so they can pitch to me now?

01:18:09   - No.

01:18:11   Well, but that's the thing,

01:18:12   for a non-responsive site,

01:18:16   it's about as good as it could get.

01:18:18   So people complain, and when it becomes responsive,

01:18:22   and it will, I'm sure people will be,

01:18:24   "Thank you, this is great."

01:18:27   But who knows, I'll probably get just as many complaints

01:18:29   because the fonts will change at the same time.

01:18:31   But it'll happen.

01:18:34   But it's the fact that it's, in my opinion,

01:18:37   pretty darn good as is, makes it easy to say,

01:18:40   well, it never quite rises up to the,

01:18:43   here's how I should spend the next two weeks.

01:18:45   - I got a question for you.

01:18:47   Somebody who used to have a website

01:18:49   has a dark background with light text

01:18:51   and somebody who got older.

01:18:54   Are you having trouble reading the site these days

01:18:57   with the light text on the dark background.

01:19:01   - No, I still find that the color schema during Fireball

01:19:03   is, from my eyes at least,

01:19:05   is more readable than the opposite.

01:19:09   - Yeah, that's--

01:19:10   - Because it's not super high contrast,

01:19:12   because it's not black. - Exactly, yeah, yeah.

01:19:14   I think that's the thing.

01:19:15   I mean, the icon factor used to be like black, black

01:19:19   with white and orange hyperlinks.

01:19:23   And it was when we retired that site,

01:19:28   it was like, oh, thank God.

01:19:30   'Cause you know, the contrast was killing me.

01:19:32   And it's like, I was in my forties

01:19:35   and it's like my eyesight started to deteriorate

01:19:37   and it's like, oh, what do we do here?

01:19:39   You know, I see, in fact, I see a lot of design

01:19:43   that by designers who are in their twenties or early thirties

01:19:48   and have great eyesight and make decisions based upon that.

01:19:53   and don't realize that a large portion of their audience has not got their good eyesight.

01:20:01   The curse of it is that I still love, my taste in graphic design runs towards very small print.

01:20:10   And not even really online. Online it's always been frustrating for me because I couldn't make it small enough.

01:20:15   That's one of the things I missed from print design is I love putting truly tiny type into designs inappropriate.

01:20:22   appropriate, like little in-jokes or footnotes and stuff like that. But at a very young age,

01:20:30   I've got the presbyopia where it's really, really hard for me to read it.

01:20:34   Well, you've also got the display preference, too. How many people actually scroll down

01:20:40   to the bottom and see display preferences there?

01:20:42   I don't know. Very few. So anybody who doesn't know, if you do think that the type on Daring

01:20:46   Fireball is too small, if you go to daringfireball.net/prefs, you don't even hunt for the list.

01:20:52   link, but it's at the bottom of the page that says "Display Preferences."

01:20:55   Actually, I think it's down to one preference.

01:20:58   There used to be more.

01:20:59   Yeah, it's like, "Font size, save."

01:21:03   Can I tell you a story?

01:21:05   There used to be a thing in here for—this is totally off topic, but it's interesting

01:21:11   to me.

01:21:13   I haven't wanted to write about it, but if I talk about it, maybe I can get this fixed.

01:21:17   I don't know.

01:21:20   There used to be a preference in here where you could set your Amazon country, and I had

01:21:25   a script so that whenever I linked to an Amazon product, it would, based on that preference

01:21:30   setting, put a link in with my Amazon affiliate code for that country.

01:21:36   I think there were only three.

01:21:38   I didn't bother going all the way around the world, but I took the top three countries

01:21:41   for Daring Fireball readers, which are the US, Canada, and the UK.

01:21:47   Very few people ever did it for the UK.

01:21:49   At one point early on, when Daring Fireball went,

01:21:52   when I went full time with it, the Amazon revenue was,

01:21:56   it was one of the, it was like a multi--

01:21:58   - It's good money, yeah.

01:22:01   - Right, it was never ever anywhere close

01:22:03   to something I depended on, but it was a little bit here,

01:22:07   a little bit there, a little bit there,

01:22:08   and it contributed to keeping--

01:22:11   - It's not paying your rent, but it'll pay

01:22:13   for a couple of good dinners every month, yeah.

01:22:16   - Right, and the importance of that revenue

01:22:18   as a percentage of Daring Fireballs over revenue

01:22:21   slipped every year.

01:22:22   And I also started feeling in recent years,

01:22:27   very recent years, that it was maybe not a great idea

01:22:32   for me to put Amazon links in there

01:22:34   because Amazon has become more of a company

01:22:37   that I write about editorially.

01:22:40   Like I don't do--

01:22:41   - Conflict of interest kind of thing, yeah.

01:22:44   - Right, just not in a big way, but in a little way.

01:22:49   Maybe it's just a little better if I don't.

01:22:52   And I also thought this way when I link,

01:22:56   so for years now I've just linked to Amazon

01:22:58   without my code, usually.

01:23:01   Every once in a while I think,

01:23:02   "Yeah, what the hell, put it in."

01:23:04   But whenever I put it in, I always feel like I should say,

01:23:06   and sometimes I have said, "That's a promotional,"

01:23:09   put in parentheses, "That's a promotional link

01:23:10   "and I'll get a few percent of whatever it is

01:23:13   that you buy if you click it. But I haven't. I've just gotten away from it. And my Amazon

01:23:20   affiliate revenue used to be maybe, you know, like $1,000 a month. And sometimes, maybe around

01:23:25   Christmas, like, it would be like, you know, like, I think the most it ever was is maybe like $3,000

01:23:31   or $4,000 in a month for December because I would put like a, "Hey, here's a couple of top selling

01:23:36   holiday items. And if you click any of these links, you'll, you'll, this is maybe like 10 years ago,

01:23:40   eight, nine, 10 years ago.

01:23:43   Anyway, long story short, about two months ago,

01:23:46   I got a note from Amazon, an email,

01:23:49   that said that I violated their clause

01:23:52   by telling people to click on a link.

01:23:54   And they've terminated my account.

01:24:00   And I searched, there were no other,

01:24:02   I never got a warning, I didn't ignore,

01:24:04   I mean, 'cause this is very common for me,

01:24:06   I have so many unread emails.

01:24:08   It was one shot and done,

01:24:10   I'm out of the Amazon affiliate program.

01:24:13   - Yep, they want to avoid click baiting, right?

01:24:16   It's like that's a--

01:24:17   - But when did, I thought,

01:24:19   well when the hell did I ever do that?

01:24:21   And I found one article that was back in like 2004,

01:24:25   maybe, when I first started using Amazon affiliates,

01:24:29   and what I did there was technically against,

01:24:32   and I guess against what they're saying I did,

01:24:34   but it was a 2004 article,

01:24:36   and not one that's like an evergreen, very popular article

01:24:41   that people keep linking on.

01:24:43   And I'm sure that somehow they ran some automated tool

01:24:46   that uncovered that article, but it was 12 years old.

01:24:49   - Or somebody didn't like something you said

01:24:52   and they went looking for something to--

01:24:55   - Maybe, but I don't think so.

01:24:57   Amazon doesn't strike me.

01:24:58   You never know though.

01:24:59   - Yeah, you never know.

01:25:00   But it's good that you don't rely on it, right?

01:25:04   - It's also, it's great that you don't,

01:25:07   you've got your sponsors and that pays for your writing

01:25:12   and that's awesome.

01:25:13   You're in an awesome position.

01:25:15   - They could have looked and seen that

01:25:16   and I would say for the last year or so,

01:25:18   I've had maybe like 100 to $200 a month in revenue

01:25:21   from Amazon Affiliates.

01:25:22   So it's cutting off a very small portion of it.

01:25:25   But I thought that the, no warning.

01:25:28   - They didn't cut off everything?

01:25:29   They only cut off a portion?

01:25:31   - No, they cut off every,

01:25:33   My, you know, Amazon affiliate tag no longer works.

01:25:37   - Okay, okay, that makes sense.

01:25:39   - That's it, it was completely out.

01:25:42   It's the equivalent of one, you know,

01:25:44   like having, like the Apple equivalent of, you know,

01:25:47   like what they did to the Dash developer.

01:25:49   You know, you're out, you're done.

01:25:51   - With no warning.

01:25:52   - And they even, I think the email even said,

01:25:55   there's no, you know, there is no,

01:25:56   there is no recourse, you know,

01:25:59   there's no, you know, there was nothing like

01:26:00   if you would like to dispute this.

01:26:05   - You're out.

01:26:08   - And then it ended with like, have a nice day.

01:26:09   I swear to God.

01:26:10   (laughing)

01:26:12   - Hope you have sponsors.

01:26:14   Thank you.

01:26:15   - Right, so if there's anybody at Amazon

01:26:17   who's listening to the show who thinks that's kind of fishy,

01:26:19   write to me at Daring Fireball

01:26:21   and I would love to have a communication about it.

01:26:23   Not so much that I even care and want to put it back on,

01:26:25   but I'd love to know more about what happened with this

01:26:28   'cause it's, to me, very curious.

01:26:31   And it seems like these things get publicized a lot

01:26:34   when Apple does it to people,

01:26:35   and I've never seen anybody complain about this

01:26:37   with Amazon before, but there are other sites

01:26:40   that are completely and utterly dependent

01:26:42   upon their Amazon affiliate revenue.

01:26:43   I mean, it's pretty much the secret to the wire cutter

01:26:46   and their business model.

01:26:47   - Yep, yep.

01:26:48   Kotke is another case where he does the gift recommendations

01:26:53   and as you know, every one of those is gonna come up

01:26:55   with his old oscillate domains.

01:27:00   You see that and it's like, okay, good.

01:27:01   Jason, you're making some money there, awesome.

01:27:04   - I don't know, I thought that was kinda odd.

01:27:06   Do you see this thing, moving on,

01:27:08   do you see this story about the Uber self-driving car

01:27:10   that ran right back in San Francisco?

01:27:12   - That's pretty funny.

01:27:13   - I will put a link in the show notes.

01:27:15   One thing that I thought was, wow, that's scary.

01:27:18   The video was shot by a CABs dashboard cam.

01:27:22   And it really did show a Volvo,

01:27:25   an Uber self-driving Volvo with the whole big,

01:27:27   it's very obvious because it had the self-driving rig.

01:27:30   - The dingus on top, yeah.

01:27:31   - Yeah, it's a real big dingus on top.

01:27:34   And it just sails right through a red light,

01:27:37   like three seconds after it went red.

01:27:38   - And it's pretty close to a pedestrian too, right?

01:27:41   You can see the person that's like,

01:27:42   okay, it's two or three feet away,

01:27:45   but hey, we've all been crossing the street in a city

01:27:50   and have a close call and think,

01:27:53   "Well, that could have been me.

01:27:54   "Could have ended badly."

01:27:57   - Right, and the other thing that struck me

01:27:59   in terms of "That could have been me"

01:28:00   is that's right at the part of San Francisco

01:28:02   where we always go.

01:28:04   It's like right by the W.

01:28:05   - Exactly, right in front of the museum, I think it was.

01:28:08   - Right, right in front of the MoMA,

01:28:10   which is right around the corner from Moscone

01:28:12   and is there for, like, for those of us who just--

01:28:16   - Yeah, we could have been drinking for the last six hours.

01:28:18   - Right.

01:28:19   (laughs)

01:28:20   - Who got nailed.

01:28:21   - It's part of that whole South of Market Union Square area

01:28:26   where people who go for Moscone related events,

01:28:30   you just tend to become familiar with.

01:28:31   It was right there.

01:28:33   I'm not familiar with most of San Francisco,

01:28:35   but it's the part of San Francisco

01:28:36   I'm intimately familiar with.

01:28:37   - Yeah, although--

01:28:38   - I was like, holy crap.

01:28:39   - Although if you're drinking at the W

01:28:40   or the St. Regis or one of those places,

01:28:42   you're probably not having that much to drink

01:28:44   because the drinks are so expensive, but yeah.

01:28:47   (laughs)

01:28:49   Here's the thing that struck me. I'll put a link into the show notes with this Bloomberg

01:28:54   story. Uber PR, Uber spokesman Matt Wing said in a statement, hats off to them for at least

01:29:01   putting their spokesman's name in the statement, unlike Apple who almost never puts the spokesperson's

01:29:06   name and just attributes to an Apple spokesperson. But anyway, this is the statement. "This

01:29:12   incident was due to human error. This is why we believe so much in making the roads safer

01:29:16   by building self-driving Ubers. This vehicle was not part of the pilot and was not carrying

01:29:21   customers. The driver involved has been suspended while we continue to investigate." And you

01:29:26   think, "Oh, so it wasn't, you know, like the driver ran a red light." But I think,

01:29:32   no, I think this is the worst type of public relations statement possible, where I think

01:29:38   this was very carefully calibrated word by word, where you read it and you think, "Oh,

01:29:44   So it was a human error.

01:29:45   It was a human driver who ran the red light.

01:29:48   Whereas if you think about it, if it

01:29:50   was the self-driving car that ran the red light--

01:29:54   Why they know what they--

01:29:55   And the driver--

01:29:56   Yeah.

01:29:57   This is what I think happened.

01:29:58   I think this car was in self-driving mode.

01:30:01   I think they were lucky.

01:30:02   And there was--

01:30:03   I think they're not lying.

01:30:04   I think there was no passenger at the moment,

01:30:07   because otherwise that would be just a blatant lie,

01:30:09   because it said, quote, "was not carrying customers."

01:30:12   So I think it was empty.

01:30:13   But I think the self-driving car went right through.

01:30:17   And when they say it was human error,

01:30:18   what they mean is that the employee behind the wheel

01:30:21   wasn't paying attention because it was in self-driving mode

01:30:24   and didn't manually apply the brake when it was clear

01:30:27   that the car was gonna sail through the red light.

01:30:29   - Right.

01:30:30   - That's what I think happened.

01:30:31   I think it was a self-driving error.

01:30:33   The self-driving car went right through the red light.

01:30:35   There was a pedestrian right in front of it

01:30:37   luckily, you know, seemed to hear the car coming and, you know, waited. And they're saying it's

01:30:43   human error because the human behind the wheel didn't manually apply the brake. Which would be,

01:30:49   I think, would be an excruciatingly hard job. I really do. If, let's say, you had to spend six

01:30:55   hours in a self-driving car that was 99% accurate and be ready to hit the...

01:31:00   Absolutely. It's like, you know, those videos that show the Teslas in their self-drive mode.

01:31:08   I get so anxious with those, and I can't take my hand or my eyes off of the driver's hands.

01:31:15   They're clearly not touching the steering wheel. It's like, "Oh my God, what's going

01:31:19   to happen next?"

01:31:20   Right. Like, it would be—it's easy to drive a car for six hours and not run a red light

01:31:25   or hit anybody because you're driving. But to not be driving and have everything go fine,

01:31:31   maybe for like five days, maybe you've done it five days in a row and nothing wrong has

01:31:35   happened, but to still be at a moment's notice to hit the brakes, I think it requires a level

01:31:40   of concentration that I know I personally do not have. Now I also know that you could

01:31:44   probably be...

01:31:45   And you're probably also monitoring other things about the system, right? Looking at

01:31:48   you know, dials and switches and you know, it's like, okay...

01:31:52   You could put me behind the wheel of a self-driving car for an hour and I would be completely

01:31:59   paying attention because it would be like, "Holy shit, this car is driving itself."

01:32:03   I'm terrified.

01:32:04   I'm ready to go.

01:32:05   I'd have my hands, my fingers twitching, ready to take the wheel, my foot on the brake,

01:32:12   ready to go.

01:32:13   For the first hour or so, I'm going to be blown away and amazed and kind of scared.

01:32:17   After 20 hours, 30 hours, it becomes normal.

01:32:22   It is very hard to be paying that level of attention to something that 99.9% of the time

01:32:28   you don't need to be paying attention to.

01:32:30   Tim Cynova Yeah.

01:32:32   It's interesting to me that when you connect this piece of news with some piece of news

01:32:40   from what was it, last week, week before, about the actual cost of maneuver trip is

01:32:45   like 40% or 60% more than they actually charge you.

01:32:51   you connect those dots, it's like Uber,

01:32:55   anybody who runs a business knows that

01:32:57   the cost of your employees is by far your biggest cost.

01:33:01   Yeah, that's where all the money goes.

01:33:04   So, them saying this is why we believe so much

01:33:09   in making the road safer by building self-driving Ubers,

01:33:12   that's kind of bullshit, right?

01:33:14   They believe in building self-driving Ubers

01:33:16   because it's gonna make their business profitable, right?

01:33:21   That, oh, it costs 40 or 60% too much.

01:33:25   Well, you don't have to pay a driver

01:33:27   sitting behind the wheel.

01:33:29   And all of a sudden the whole economic situation changes

01:33:34   and you're making shitloads of money

01:33:36   because you have a one-time cost for that computer

01:33:41   that drives the car.

01:33:43   Your upfront costs are the computer and the car.

01:33:48   I think there is a, "Hey, let's save lives and switch to self-driving cars." That is

01:33:54   true. There are millions of people who are killed every year by automobile accidents,

01:33:58   and I truly and honestly believe that we will look back on that and our societies—and

01:34:03   my personal acceptance of it. I own a car. I drive as barbarous. Hopefully sooner rather

01:34:11   than later. Hopefully it'll happen really soon, maybe 10 years from now, maybe 15, maybe

01:34:17   20 at the most, but I think we'll look back on it.

01:34:20   And I think people who continue to insist

01:34:25   on driving their own cars will start to be looked at

01:34:27   as people who smoke around babies.

01:34:29   I really do, because I do think that the technology,

01:34:33   it's clear, it's not here yet,

01:34:34   but it's clearly going to be here,

01:34:36   where a system where all the cars are automated

01:34:40   will reduce congestion. - And they network together.

01:34:42   Yeah, they network together.

01:34:44   - And the safety improvements will be dramatic.

01:34:46   Absolutely dramatic.

01:34:48   But I think you're exactly right that Uber's

01:34:50   interest in this is very much primarily about the wages

01:34:55   they have to pay to a driver in every car.

01:34:57   - And a bigger issue is our society is not

01:34:59   prepared for this change, right?

01:35:02   When you think about, okay,

01:35:04   all of our transportation infrastructure

01:35:06   is gonna become automated.

01:35:07   I mean, compare that to our entire

01:35:10   manufacturing infrastructure becoming automated.

01:35:13   You know, robots are, in production lines,

01:35:15   putting people out of work. Those people that are out of work become disenfranchised. Those

01:35:21   people that are disenfranchised do weird shit at the time when it's time to vote.

01:35:27   It ties back in with Trumpism, where Trump's story is that a bunch of good jobs all went

01:35:32   to China and that we could bring those bad jobs back to China. And it's true that obviously

01:35:37   a lot of stuff is made in China or other countries in Asia. But there's a whole bunch of stuff

01:35:42   if you read, I mean, and that's true,

01:35:43   but it's a more complicated story than that.

01:35:45   And I think it's arguable,

01:35:48   and at least some people have made the argument,

01:35:50   based on facts, that more manufacturing jobs in the US

01:35:53   have been lost to automation than to--

01:35:56   - Yep, yep.

01:35:57   - Now, the fact that it's like a double whammy--

01:36:00   - Right, and vocational training,

01:36:02   teaching people how to work in that new environment

01:36:06   is just not there.

01:36:07   Right, that's what I'm saying.

01:36:08   So society isn't ready for it.

01:36:11   All these truck drivers that haul all our shit cross-country,

01:36:16   what are they gonna do?

01:36:18   - There's an awful lot of, an awful lot of people,

01:36:20   let's face it, mostly men,

01:36:22   but certainly a lot more women than there used to be

01:36:26   who were truck drivers,

01:36:27   but truck driving is a large, very common profession.

01:36:32   And it is, I think, going to be one of the first

01:36:36   that goes away in the world of autonomous vehicles.

01:36:39   - Yep.

01:36:39   And what happens then?

01:36:41   - And it'll be better for all of us, right?

01:36:44   It's like, you know, you think of it,

01:36:46   when these vehicles are networked together, right?

01:36:49   They know a lot more about each other than we do, right?

01:36:53   You don't know what the intentions

01:36:55   of the person driving in front of you is.

01:36:57   If that's a computer in front of you,

01:36:59   you can share your GPS coordinates,

01:37:01   where your destination is, where you've been,

01:37:04   so much gas you've got, you know,

01:37:06   there's all sorts of data that can be exchanged

01:37:08   between these devices.

01:37:10   It's like, you know,

01:37:11   it's like network computers are way more interesting

01:37:15   than a single laptop sitting on your desktop, right?

01:37:19   - A huge source of car accidents.

01:37:21   I think often non-fatal ones, thankfully, you know,

01:37:23   once, but you know, for all the fate of,

01:37:25   obviously the fatalities are the worst thing, worst.

01:37:28   I mean, just, you know, I don't have to emphasize why,

01:37:31   but the minor ones, the fender benders on a freeway

01:37:34   that maybe nobody's hurt at all,

01:37:37   but can cause you to be an hour and a half late for work.

01:37:41   Simply a matter of paying attention.

01:37:44   - It ruins your day.

01:37:45   - And I think they're the ones that'll be the easiest to avoid

01:37:49   when every car involved is autonomous.

01:37:53   - Yeah, well, you've seen those videos

01:37:55   of the wave propagation, right?

01:37:57   One person taps on their brakes,

01:38:00   somebody sees the red lights, they tap on theirs,

01:38:03   so on and so on and so on.

01:38:04   And that wave propagates to the point

01:38:06   where the wave stops, right?

01:38:09   And it's all happened to all of us.

01:38:11   It's like, why am I stopping the freeway, right?

01:38:13   Oh, there's gotta be some accident ahead of us.

01:38:18   Five minutes later, you're looking for this accident

01:38:20   and it's not there, right?

01:38:22   So eliminate that and everybody's life gets a little easier

01:38:26   except for the people that get paid to drive.

01:38:30   - Yeah.

01:38:32   So there's a sci-fi, everybody knows the sci-fi future.

01:38:35   the sci-fi future is very few people have to work,

01:38:37   and we have robots, it's a life of leisure for everybody,

01:38:40   and it's the people who live on the ship in WALL-E, right?

01:38:45   Just lounge about the pool deck all day long,

01:38:50   and robots bring you your food,

01:38:53   and nobody has to work.

01:38:55   - Kill me now.

01:38:57   - Right, but there is a very painful period

01:39:01   between here and there,

01:39:03   because here it's expected that to be a successful person,

01:39:07   you're gainfully and fully employed

01:39:08   at as high a wage as possible.

01:39:12   So I don't know, problem's coming.

01:39:15   Let me take one last break here,

01:39:19   and then afterwards we have a great thing

01:39:21   to talk about, your book.

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01:42:59   All right, Craig, here we go.

01:43:01   The book, "Making Sense of Color Management."

01:43:07   - Yeah.

01:43:08   - It's an $8 book from a book apart.

01:43:10   How long did it take you to write?

01:43:11   - Like two years.

01:43:14   It started in November, 2014.

01:43:17   And you know, you blame me for the nonresponsive

01:43:21   during Fireball, I blame the Safari engineers

01:43:24   for this whole thing happening.

01:43:27   Mountain Lion was the release at the time.

01:43:33   And all of a sudden the colors in Safari

01:43:36   were subtly different than the ones in Chrome.

01:43:39   I was like, what the heck is going on here?

01:43:41   And we have that product Xscope,

01:43:44   which lets you do all sorts of screen measurements and stuff.

01:43:49   a lot of designers, a lot of developers use it

01:43:51   to help with their work. - It has a loop.

01:43:53   Xscope has an onscreen loop that you can,

01:43:56   it's a little window you can drag over another window

01:43:58   and then you can have it zoom in on that window

01:44:00   and show you what's underneath.

01:44:02   And it could be, like at the time,

01:44:05   I think what you're saying is you could drag it over Safari

01:44:08   and you'd see this one color in Safari

01:44:11   and then you'd look at it in Xscope

01:44:12   and it would be like a slightly color shifted color.

01:44:14   - Yeah, and you expect it to be hash,

01:44:19   and it's like hash C36.

01:44:23   I'm like, what the heck is going on here?

01:44:25   And it turns out that they had implemented color management

01:44:28   for their CSS colors.

01:44:30   And that was like, oh, okay, I've got to fix this bug.

01:44:35   And that was the start of my learning

01:44:39   about color management.

01:44:40   And as I learned about it, it was like,

01:44:43   I should write this down, you know,

01:44:44   maybe make a good blog post.

01:44:46   And it's one of those topics that the more you learn about it, the more you know what

01:44:52   you don't know.

01:44:54   And there got to be like 10,000 words in my blog post.

01:44:57   I was like, "This is not a blog post anymore."

01:45:00   So I got in contact with Jeffrey Zeldman and some other people at A Book Apart, and they

01:45:07   were like, "Yeah, we'd love to publish this."

01:45:11   And it's only, what is it, about 75 pages?

01:45:13   Yeah, I mean, that was the hard part, right?

01:45:15   He's taking this really complex topic and distilling it.

01:45:19   And I mean, my editor at A Book Apart was Tina Lee.

01:45:24   It's just awesome because she would challenge me.

01:45:26   It's like, "This is too long, right?

01:45:28   I don't understand what you're saying here."

01:45:30   And I really had to, you know,

01:45:32   I've probably wrote the book in its entirety

01:45:36   three different times.

01:45:37   I, in fact, we were pretty close to being done

01:45:41   and Apple announced color management in iOS 10.

01:45:44   I was like, oh wait, we're not done.

01:45:48   So, you know, basically two chapters, you know,

01:45:50   the chapter on web browsers,

01:45:53   because Safari on iOS changed significantly in that release

01:45:57   and the chapter on mobile apps was completely rewritten

01:46:02   and sample code and all the stuff that goes along with it

01:46:06   was like, well, okay.

01:46:08   But I think it came out really well in the end.

01:46:12   - It affects anybody who makes anything for the screen.

01:46:15   Honestly, I mean this in a sense,

01:46:17   I'm not just trying to sell copies of the book,

01:46:18   but whether you're a designer, a graphic designer

01:46:20   who makes assets for, you know,

01:46:22   graphical assets for apps and websites,

01:46:25   or if you're a front-end developer on the web

01:46:27   who's making stuff for, you know, HTML, CSS,

01:46:31   you know, web development,

01:46:33   or if you are an app developer for native apps

01:46:38   for Mac or iOS, this book is for you.

01:46:43   And in no way, Ed, one of the things that I love

01:46:47   about the book is at no point to me does it,

01:46:50   is it all that clear who the main audience is for.

01:46:54   It's balanced.

01:46:55   It's not like, oh, it's a book for programmers,

01:46:58   but if you're a designer,

01:46:59   you can still get something out of it.

01:47:00   Or the other way, it's a book for designers,

01:47:02   but you should read it if you're a programmer

01:47:05   because you need to understand this stuff.

01:47:07   It is perfectly balanced from all those perspectives.

01:47:11   - I'll tell you a little story.

01:47:12   We struggled with the title because initially

01:47:14   we're gonna call it color management for developers.

01:47:16   And then it was like, no, 'cause it's for designers too.

01:47:19   And then it's like, oh, working with color

01:47:22   is kind of like too vague.

01:47:24   And Jason Santa Maria came up

01:47:27   with making sense of color management.

01:47:28   It was like, it just clicked, right?

01:47:30   Because it's like, that's what it's all about, right?

01:47:32   We're trying to take this black, dark art

01:47:36   that everybody's kind of fiddled with some knobs

01:47:41   and kind of maybe got something working

01:47:43   but doesn't really understand what's going on.

01:47:45   It's, and you know, when you read the book,

01:47:48   you realize that making sense also applies

01:47:52   to our visual sense, right?

01:47:54   There's a lot of, in fact, the core of color management

01:47:57   is really mathematical modeling of how our eye works,

01:48:02   which to me is fascinating.

01:48:04   - It's like, "Oh, wait, we've got all these devices

01:48:08   that have different color profiles,

01:48:10   different way of characterizing color,

01:48:11   and they all kind of, they're a little different."

01:48:15   But then we got this thing called an eye,

01:48:17   which doesn't change.

01:48:19   It doesn't, you know, yes, it's changed over, you know,

01:48:22   millions of years due to evolution, but, you know,

01:48:26   and at its core, I mean, that is the thing

01:48:29   that doesn't change.

01:48:30   So it's a little bit different.

01:48:32   I mean, that is the thing that doesn't change.

01:48:34   So color management all revolves around that sense of vision.

01:48:39   - And in terms of being well-timed

01:48:42   in terms of where we are as an industry,

01:48:44   you're right, web browsers, Safari leading the way

01:48:47   has color management in their browser.

01:48:49   - The reason they did that is clear now, right?

01:48:51   It's like they needed color management

01:48:54   because they knew that they were coming out

01:48:56   with these new displays, which have a wider gamut.

01:48:59   - And that's the other shoe that's dropping

01:49:02   is the display technology.

01:49:03   Starting with the iMac 5K last year,

01:49:07   which was their first product with the,

01:49:09   what do they call it, a deep color gamut?

01:49:11   - It's a-- - Or wide color gamut.

01:49:12   - Wide color, yeah.

01:49:14   - Right, this gets into the argument that you've had

01:49:16   with our mutual friend Gus Mueller,

01:49:18   who technically edited your book.

01:49:21   Gus prefers deep color. - Deep color, yeah.

01:49:24   He's right, technically it's deeper.

01:49:28   you've got 16 bits instead of eight.

01:49:32   So yes, it's a deeper pixel,

01:49:35   but that only talks about the pixel.

01:49:38   And I think the reason why Apple has started

01:49:40   calling it wide colors is not only talking

01:49:42   about the actual pixels,

01:49:44   but it's also talking about the gamut,

01:49:45   which is the thing that these displays

01:49:48   can display more color.

01:49:49   And it's not like retina, right?

01:49:52   Retina, you looked at the display

01:49:54   and it was immediately obvious.

01:49:55   The thing that I'm hearing,

01:49:57   fact my wife got one of these new 4k LG displays for her new MacBook Pro and it

01:50:08   was like the first thing she said to me was like wow this display looks great

01:50:12   right Horace Horace did who said the same thing about the the the iPad Pro

01:50:18   the 9.7 inch iPad Pro the first iOS device that had a wide colors please

01:50:24   There's something striking about this play. I don't know what it is, but it just it looks great

01:50:29   it's and the the way that I explain it to people it's like the you know, if you'd only ever had a bass speaker

01:50:36   right, you know, you've always ever listened to music on you know, a bass speaker and

01:50:41   Then somebody gave you a tweeter

01:50:44   You would be like wow, this sounds a lot better. You know, you basically you're getting more detail

01:50:49   Right you you you become accustomed to something and that's what retina was retina gave us more pixels

01:50:55   people picked up it on and immediately but then you start talking about a

01:51:00   A wider range of tonal values and it's a lot harder to express that, you know

01:51:08   It's like, you know, you give me more dynamic range in your music and it's like it sounds better, but you don't really know why

01:51:14   Yeah, and I don't think it's any I don't think there's any trick to which which came first

01:51:19   retina resolution is far more important. I would, you know, I think everybody would agree,

01:51:23   I'd rather have a retina resolution without the deep gamut than to have a deep gamut display,

01:51:28   but the old pre-retina resolution. It's not even close. Retina is more important. It's more

01:51:33   noticeable. But the next step is clearly increasing the number of colors. That's why I think Apple

01:51:38   goes with wide because I think they're describing it from the user's perspective.

01:51:42   Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, it gives you a wider vision of your life. And, you know,

01:51:50   the fact that the iPhone cameras now are shooting in display P3, you know, there's gonna be a lot

01:51:57   more of these wide gamut images floating around, you know, the internet, right?

01:52:04   Yes. Well, there already are, right? Every photo that's taken with an iPhone 7 already is.

01:52:08   Exactly.

01:52:09   - Yeah, and you know, actually,

01:52:12   the guys at Instagram, Mike Krieger and then the crew there,

01:52:19   I gave an early version of the book because I knew,

01:52:23   you know, they're gonna have this problem, you know,

01:52:27   the, you know, you kinda, Apple loves to have apps on stage

01:52:32   when they announce something new.

01:52:33   It was pretty obvious to me that the display P3 screens

01:52:36   and cameras were coming to the next iPhone,

01:52:40   connect the dots, okay,

01:52:41   and I'll give them a copy of the book,

01:52:42   and it really helped them, right?

01:52:45   - When the iPad Pro got it,

01:52:47   when the iPad Pro got the wide color gamut

01:52:49   with the, in the 9.7 form factor in March,

01:52:52   I thought it was a sure thing that the iPhone would get it.

01:52:55   - Me too, and that explained, you know,

01:52:58   again, back to, you know, Mountain Lion,

01:53:00   the guys in Safari changing the way things work subtly,

01:53:04   it all kind of fell into place that, okay,

01:53:07   this is not just a Mac thing, this is an iOS thing.

01:53:12   This is, you know, it turns out that the touch bar

01:53:16   on the new MacBook Pros is a display P3 gamut on an old--

01:53:21   - Is it really? - Yeah, on an old LED.

01:53:24   - I did not know that.

01:53:25   - Yeah, so it's gonna be everywhere.

01:53:27   And as developers-- - I did not know that.

01:53:29   That's great.

01:53:30   - And as developers who are just thinking

01:53:31   that a pixel is, you know, eight bits of red,

01:53:35   eight bits of green, eight bits of blue,

01:53:38   you're in for some prizes when that's no longer

01:53:42   just eight bits, number one, and number two,

01:53:45   it's characterized by an ICC color profile.

01:53:50   - Right.

01:53:52   - And that's the thing that I'm describing in the book.

01:53:59   - Yeah, and the challenge for people working today,

01:54:02   I'm not gonna say it'll be easier,

01:54:06   but in a way it would be.

01:54:07   Like, let's fast forward 10 years,

01:54:09   and I think we can probably guess that 10 years from now,

01:54:14   almost all commonly used devices

01:54:15   will have the wide color displays.

01:54:19   - Oh, yeah, absolutely.

01:54:21   You know, it's a competitive advantage for Apple right now.

01:54:24   Right? - Right.

01:54:25   - They are ahead of the game, right?

01:54:28   they were the head of the game with retina, right? They're ahead of the game with a lot of technology.

01:54:33   This looks better is a compelling competitive advantage in almost every single field. There's

01:54:41   almost no market where this looks better than the competition is not even seriously, I'm not even

01:54:47   being a jerk, but even like if you're selling produce, if you have fresh fruit that looks

01:54:52   better than the store across the street, it's better. It's a competitive advantage.

01:54:56   Yeah, that's one of the things that pissed me off about the Google Pixel comparisons with the iPhone.

01:55:04   All the comparisons I looked at were in the sRGB color space. They had to actually take the photo

01:55:10   that came off of the iPhone and crapify it to compare it on their webpage.

01:55:17   We talked about this and there were some of these competitions, like, "Hey, let's compare the

01:55:22   the Google Pixel to the iPhone 7 in photos,

01:55:25   it looks like whatever they did to reduce the color gamut,

01:55:29   and some of the cases, it really washed them out.

01:55:33   I mean, 'cause there's different ways to do it.

01:55:35   There is no easy way to just say,

01:55:37   take this image that was shot with the wide color gamut

01:55:39   and just do the one true way to show it on a pre-display.

01:55:44   It seemed like some of them converted it

01:55:47   in a way that really washed it out.

01:55:49   - Yeah, or you can, if you then decide,

01:55:52   "Okay, I'm gonna just ignore the color profile,"

01:55:55   you've got a different problem, right?

01:55:56   You've got color shifting.

01:55:58   So it's either gonna wash out or it's gonna shift.

01:56:00   So you really,

01:56:03   and that's why web developers

01:56:05   need to start understanding this stuff, right?

01:56:07   If you're gonna present this good,

01:56:09   high quality photography on your webpage

01:56:12   or in your mobile app or wherever,

01:56:14   you need to understand what you're dealing with.

01:56:16   And--

01:56:17   This is why I love the book. I love the book, and you were kind enough to ask me to write the

01:56:23   foreword for it, and I did, and I hope it turned out all right. But I do want to write the foreword.

01:56:29   I'm very happy you did that. That made me very happy.

01:56:30   The nut of the foreword, the nut of it is that what makes the book great is that you don't just

01:56:35   say, "Here's what to do to make your stuff look right." You explain why. If you do this,

01:56:42   This is why it will look right on all of the displays you're targeting, whereby right is the best it could possibly look according to your intentions as the designer or the photographer or whatever it is that you're displaying. Here's why. Here's what to do and why. And understanding it makes it so much easier to remember it.

01:57:03   And it's also more satisfying, because that's, to me,

01:57:07   the voodoo of before.

01:57:08   And the eye-opener for me was that, for me,

01:57:11   something that was completely opposite of what I expected

01:57:13   is that sometimes, in some cases,

01:57:15   you're actually better off.

01:57:16   The right thing to do is not to embed a color profile.

01:57:20   Right.

01:57:21   Right?

01:57:22   I've always done that.

01:57:23   And then things don't look right.

01:57:24   My daring fireball, 5A to 5A, doesn't quite look right.

01:57:30   It's like, all of a sudden, the background-- why?

01:57:32   And then I start flipping switches.

01:57:34   And then all of a sudden I've got an exported ping

01:57:36   that looks right here and there.

01:57:38   Okay.

01:57:39   I'm happy because now I've got this asset

01:57:42   that looks to my eyes right on both Chrome and Safari.

01:57:46   But because I don't know why,

01:57:48   it's like I lose a little sleep at night.

01:57:50   - Yeah. - Right?

01:57:50   - And then you go look at it on an iPad

01:57:53   or an Android device and it's wrong.

01:57:55   It's like that's the classic one.

01:57:57   It's like, oh, wow, how did that happen?

01:58:02   So the other thing that I really love about this book,

01:58:05   and I think it really shows, and you even

01:58:07   spoke about working with your editor,

01:58:08   is that clearly a lot of work went into what's there,

01:58:14   but then a lot of work went into taking out what's not there.

01:58:17   And there was an old adage in the print days,

01:58:19   and I know a lot of people buy their books now as ebooks,

01:58:21   and for computer books in particular, that's true.

01:58:25   But in the print days, there was a real problem,

01:58:28   and people who-- or at least in tech books,

01:58:31   which was that, and this is true,

01:58:33   I mean, I've spoken to,

01:58:35   one time I met Tim O'Reilly

01:58:37   and even spoke to him about it,

01:58:38   but that they knew based on sales

01:58:41   that based on topics, what people would do

01:58:44   is they'd go into the bookstore

01:58:46   and they knew they wanted to get a book on SQL

01:58:49   and they did, there's 12 of them,

01:58:51   so they would just buy the thickest one

01:58:52   'cause they would think, well, they're all $40,

01:58:54   I'll just get this one that's thicker

01:58:56   and figure it's got more.

01:58:57   - God, and I-- - And there's

01:58:58   a real correlation.

01:58:59   - I hated those books that had, you know,

01:59:01   just reams and reams of source code in the book.

01:59:03   It's like, oh, and you know they were doing it just

01:59:05   to pad it out.

01:59:06   They wanted it to be heavier.

01:59:09   A really strong provable correlation

01:59:12   between best-selling books by topic and topics by length.

01:59:16   The longer, thicker books by topic

01:59:19   were tended to be the best sellers.

01:59:21   And that didn't make them the best books.

01:59:23   Sometimes the best book is shorter.

01:59:25   Sometimes there are some great books,

01:59:28   some great technical books that are really thick.

01:59:30   The programming pearl is one that I go to all the time.

01:59:33   - Yeah, Donald Knuth, right?

01:59:36   You know, the art of computer programming.

01:59:38   That can't be a short book, right?

01:59:40   - Well, it takes up a whole shelf, right?

01:59:43   That's great.

01:59:44   But there are other books that really should be, you know,

01:59:47   the fact that this is 70 pages is because there's,

01:59:49   or 75, whatever it is, there's 75 pages to say about it,

01:59:52   and that's the 75 pages that are in the book,

01:59:55   and it really shows.

01:59:56   - It's like building a product.

01:59:57   - Eight bucks, what a deal.

01:59:59   It's like building a product, right?

02:00:01   The parts you take away are the hardest and most important.

02:00:05   - Craig, you should be really proud of this book.

02:00:08   Anybody out there listening,

02:00:09   if you have any sort of job that entails

02:00:13   putting pixels onto screens and you want them to look right,

02:00:15   I highly recommend this book.

02:00:17   I really do mean it.

02:00:18   I mean it from the bottom of my heart.

02:00:20   I don't know that I've ever even written a forward

02:00:21   to a book before.

02:00:22   - Yeah.

02:00:23   - But I did it not because you're my pal,

02:00:25   but because the book is good.

02:00:27   Frankly, I don't really like you that much.

02:00:29   - Yeah, well.

02:00:29   I buy you drinks every once in a while,

02:00:32   so you know, that's.

02:00:33   There's that.

02:00:36   - A Book Apart products making sense of color management.

02:00:40   - You know, don't just check out my book.

02:00:42   The whole Book Apart family is great.

02:00:45   - That's true.

02:00:46   It's actually very true.

02:00:48   - They've got that notion of shorter is better,

02:00:52   and if you're looking at anything about responsive

02:00:55   web design, for example, hint, hint, you know,

02:00:59   they've got an awesome book on it, you know?

02:01:01   - And as somebody who is personally,

02:01:04   who does judge books by covers,

02:01:06   I judge them by the contents too,

02:01:09   but the whole thing that you can't judge a book

02:01:10   by the cover, it's a bunch of bullshit.

02:01:12   In my opinion, better books tend to look better.

02:01:14   Their books are gorgeous,

02:01:15   thanks to our friend Jason Santa Maria and their other,

02:01:18   I know he's the head designer there,

02:01:20   but boy, he's good with typography.

02:01:23   and their books also are first-class print books.

02:01:26   I know your book is an ebook only,

02:01:27   but they're a publisher that treats their ebooks every bit

02:01:31   as lovingly in every regard as they do their print books.

02:01:36   - Yeah, it's, you know, when Jason showed me

02:01:41   the first comp for the book, I was like,

02:01:44   "That, this is a real thing now."

02:01:47   And it got me really excited,

02:01:49   just by looking at that cover, right?

02:01:51   It was just--

02:01:52   Was it hard?

02:01:53   Here's my technical question.

02:01:54   Was it hard?

02:01:55   Oh, the cover's gorgeous.

02:01:56   Especially the bottom left corner

02:01:59   where it says Forward by John Gruber.

02:02:01   I love that.

02:02:02   Well, anyway, thank you very much for your time,

02:02:05   for being on the show.

02:02:06   Thank you even more for writing this excellent book.

02:02:09   Everybody should go get a copy.

02:02:11   It is absolutely terrific.

02:02:13   I wanna thank our sponsors, Harry's, get a shaving kit,

02:02:18   Squarespace, build your own website,

02:02:19   back Blaze, back up your computer,

02:02:22   and back up your family members too.

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