The Talk Show

175: ‘Uncle Joe’s Bathtub Gin’ With Glenn Fleishman


00:00:00   What an amazing technology indoor plumbing is.

00:00:03   You're a Stephen Johnson fan, right?

00:00:05   Yes.

00:00:06   Yeah, so you know his book Ghost Map from several years ago, like a decade ago, 2006.

00:00:12   It was about the fellow who basically invented epidemiology.

00:00:16   Yes.

00:00:17   And, but it also has a really long discussion about how before, I mean, there was indoor

00:00:24   plumbing then.

00:00:25   This is actually when we had generally had indoor plumbing in cities.

00:00:28   how, what happened to all the effluvia? Where did it go? There were all these specialized

00:00:33   professions to deal with, like, night soil and other kinds. So, there were various products

00:00:39   and various people whose professions were to handle the products of society. And it's

00:00:46   really incredible, like, the book is great because it's about sort of how empirical

00:00:51   science becomes a thing that we then start to rely on and it changes the nature of medicine

00:00:54   and health, but it's also like, wow, there were a lot of people employed dealing with

00:00:58   shit in London. I mean, you had to. You had to be.

00:01:01   Well, it's—if you think about it, it's not just—I first thought it often just seems

00:01:07   like, wow, that would be inconvenient.

00:01:09   [laughter]

00:01:10   But the volume!

00:01:12   Right, that it's—

00:01:13   Oh, man.

00:01:14   And the smells, right? Like, it's like once a year or so, I end up having to go in like

00:01:20   a porta potty for some reason or another, you know, I'm at some sort of event where

00:01:25   you've got to go in a porta potty. And porta potty technology, I think has advanced to

00:01:30   a significant degree where where there's that blue stuff that's in the hole that I think

00:01:36   does take care of an awful lot of the unpleasant odors of just releasing your your waste into

00:01:45   all, literally just a big bucket.

00:01:47   [Laughter]

00:01:48   Pete: A little cabin, camping recently, and experienced more sort of "feel the tree"

00:01:56   style.

00:01:57   It's very different.

00:01:58   Jared: It always occurs to me, though, that that was what going to the bathroom was like

00:02:01   every single time you went to the bathroom.

00:02:03   Pete; Oh yeah, I try to think, like, when we think about the past, we think about inconveniences

00:02:07   and we think about horses and muddy streets and all that.

00:02:11   Like, were you watching Westworld just finish up?

00:02:14   I have watched Westworld.

00:02:16   The series is extraordinary, I think. The finale is great. I really liked it. We have

00:02:22   an episode coming out on the incomparable about the whole, with all full spoilers. But,

00:02:27   you know, that's the vision of the West where it's really neat and clean. So, the

00:02:29   people are shooting each other and there's fornication and so forth, but there is no

00:02:34   horse manure on the streets of Westworld because it's cleaned up. And I've often thought

00:02:37   the thing that we can't replicate when we think about the past is the smell and the

00:02:43   constant mess. Like, everything was dirty and everything smelled until like 1910 or 1890 or

00:02:49   something like that. And then it started to improve gradually. And then by the 1930s, cities

00:02:56   smelled a lot less and by the 50s, it was sort of like if things smelled, something was terribly,

00:03:00   terribly wrong.

00:03:00   Pete: Right. I've heard, maybe it was even in the Steven Johnson book. But, you know, and it makes

00:03:07   sense. But like, in like the late at the turn of the last century, the streets of major cities like

00:03:14   New York and Philadelphia and London were just it ever just curb to curb horseshit. It was just the

00:03:22   streets were just paved with a layer of horseshit because there was no way to keep up with.

00:03:26   Pete: Yeah. Sean, is this a metaphor for this year?

00:03:29   Pete: It could be.

00:03:30   Pete; I sort of feel like that's what we're, we're talking about one thing, but we need another.

00:03:33   But I did think that Westworld I I thought that it was weird that they never addressed the the sort of

00:03:40   The roughing it aspects of I mean this is not a spoiler

00:03:46   The basic concept of the show is not a spoiler that it's at some point in the future

00:03:50   there's like a theme park where people go and

00:03:52   For a lot of money you get to pretend to live in the Old West for a couple of days

00:03:57   And there's action and adventure that you can take part in

00:04:02   But, yeah, nobody mentions that, you know, you gotta go shit in an outhouse.

00:04:07   Pete: Yeah, it's pretty, it's a very, it's clean. I mean, there's a lot of, there's

00:04:12   some, a lot of certain bodily fluids, mostly blood, but there's no other kinds of bodily

00:04:16   fluids. You know, there's a sensibility thing, like, there's things you can't, there's

00:04:20   things you can't do and talk about, even on HBO, apparently, which is good. But yeah,

00:04:25   it was kind of, it was supposed to be a theme park, so for all we know, Hidden in the Bushes

00:04:29   were like, you know, little potties that broke the spirit. But I think, yeah, I think that's

00:04:36   the thing that people don't get—people who camp know about this, of course, because

00:04:39   they deal with it. You go out in the woods, you're a hunter, or you like to go out and

00:04:42   camp, and you're in areas that have no facilities at all, you know. But most of us do not have

00:04:47   to deal with the basic human realities that people did for billions of years, or hundreds

00:04:51   of millions of years, I should say.

00:04:52   Right. And I mean, it's getting cold in Philadelphia. It's very cold today. I mean,

00:04:59   I'm not quite sure how cold, but it certainly felt cold when I was outside. And it's like,

00:05:03   imagine, I had to go outside every time to take a leak.

00:05:06   Oh, man. We had an inch or two of snow in Seattle, which is a snowpocalypse for us.

00:05:11   So, they shut down—no, I'm kidding. It mostly melted, but they started the schools two hours

00:05:16   late because the bus routes were very steep hills. So, whenever it snows, they can't

00:05:22   really send the buses up, they run snow routes, and it's sort of a safety for that rather than,

00:05:27   like, you know, the streets are impassable. So, they don't want to have—I think bus

00:05:31   plunge is not a headline you want to see. It's really bad.

00:05:35   Pete: Did you ever watch Deadwood?

00:05:38   Pete; I didn't! I heard it was fantastic. I think it came out when I had Small Children,

00:05:43   so I never really got, oh, and you had to have, that was on HBO, wasn't it?

00:05:46   Pete; Yeah, it was on HBO. From 2004 to 2006.

00:05:48   I missed it. I bought HBO Now where I'm subscribing specifically to watch

00:05:52   Westworld. So in those days I would have had to pay the cable thing.

00:05:56   You can probably get Deadwood then, right? I think that the HBO has—keeps most of their old shows in

00:06:01   there. You have to know this going—I thought it was a marvelous show. I really loved it. I was a

00:06:09   big fan. It was created by a guy named David Milch who was, I guess—it was like before people called

00:06:15   called Showrunner Showrunners, but he was the guy behind NYPD Blue, which was back in

00:06:21   the 90s, probably the first serious TV show that I ever really fell in love with. And

00:06:27   it was weird because it was a network show and I guess it was fairly cheap to produce

00:06:31   and it went on forever and ever, long past when it was, and I kept watching because I

00:06:35   liked it enough, but it sort of, NYPD Blue sort of ended with a whisper because it just

00:06:41   Oh, yeah, that was the worst thing.

00:06:43   I mean, it was on for like ten years or something like that, but it was a great show.

00:06:48   And still had, you know, there was enough good in the characters to, you know, make...

00:06:53   There were a couple of episodes a season that were always good, but it was kind of hard.

00:06:58   And it was on ABC, and those ABC shows had to do like 22 shows a year, which is too much.

00:07:04   Like, part of the secret of the modern resonance or renaissance in, like, movie-quality TV

00:07:11   shows is that they only do, like, 10 episodes at a time, and sometimes not even once a year.

00:07:17   It might take 18 months to get the next 10 episodes out.

00:07:20   There's a sort of quality instead of quantity aspect to these HBOs and Netflix.

00:07:25   Pete: Oh yeah, season two of Westworld is coming out in 2018.

00:07:29   But, although I think, isn't there a little sequential thing?

00:07:32   Like, they sort of, they play it a little by ear.

00:07:34   I don't know when they got the renewal request, but I believe Westworld has been, I think,

00:07:38   one of the most popular shows. I mean, I'm sure Games of Thrones swamps it, but they,

00:07:43   I think they are okay at HBO. They're very good about funding things with no strings

00:07:48   attached, I've heard. I keep reading about how they're such a, they're an amazing organization

00:07:52   by just saying, they don't throw money at something, but they trust, they trust people,

00:07:57   right? But they, I don't think they gave them the dollars for season two or really

00:08:02   fully committed until it was underway and the showrunners, Nolan and Joy, are saying,

00:08:06   "We need time to do this right." They had to stop production twice to do some retooling. I think

00:08:11   once was kind of tool up and the other was to sort of rejigger because they realized they'd gotten

00:08:15   some mechanics wrong and they wanted to fix those, which is admirable. And they had the freedom to do

00:08:20   that, which is incredible. And then it rolled out.

00:08:22   Pete: Narrative mechanics?

00:08:23   Pete; That's right.

00:08:24   Pete; What did you mean by mechanics?

00:08:25   Pete; Oh, oh, I think, oh, world mechanics. Apparently they built, they built the world. I

00:08:29   I mean, it's really clear watching the whole season that they really understood what it

00:08:34   was about.

00:08:35   They had an arc, they had a circle, they had, there are time bombs in episode one that pay

00:08:40   off in ten and aren't referred to in the interim.

00:08:42   So, I trust them having watched it, but I think they had the freedom to go back and

00:08:46   say, you know, we thought the world was going to work.

00:08:48   I mean, this is what they said, it's something along the lines of, we thought this is how

00:08:51   the world worked and then we realized that changed, but in episodes, I think it was one

00:08:56   to three, maybe it was a little even more, they had elements that were now wrong inside

00:09:01   their ecosystem. So, they reshot and fixed them, so they were consistent. And I'm thinking,

00:09:06   how wonderful they did that, had the time to do it, that that's the conscientiousness

00:09:10   they had. What an incredible thing. And I'm sure the show benefited from it, because otherwise,

00:09:14   especially with the level of attention it got. Can you imagine by episode five, people

00:09:18   were like, "No, well, excuse me, but in episode three, they bled from the left." And

00:09:22   we know that's not true in Westworld.

00:09:23   Yeah. I'm actually... anyway, Wes, the thing about Deadwood, to go back one digression,

00:09:31   was that Deadwood wound up getting cancelled before, and they didn't even have time to

00:09:38   give it a proper final episode.

00:09:39   Oh no!

00:09:40   So it just sort of ends. So I want to warn anybody before they get into it that it's

00:09:47   a very dissatisfying ending. It's like you don't go into it looking for any kind of complete

00:09:53   loop on any of the characters or anything. You just kind of have to take it for what it is.

00:09:57   But anyway, Deadwood was a Western, took place based on real people, actually,

00:10:02   in Deadwood, South Dakota. And it was probably the grittiest Western I've ever seen,

00:10:09   where there was some shit on the streets, you know? And they showed people, you know,

00:10:16   urinating out in the middle of the street and stuff like that.

00:10:18   And a Baroque swearing, I heard. I heard just endless, incredible, eloquent, obscenity.

00:10:24   Yeah. It's probably the greatest Al Swearengen. He's based on a real character,

00:10:32   a real person. But it was—

00:10:34   That's great.

00:10:35   It was the filthiest mouth I've ever heard. It was poetry.

00:10:38   Oh, man.

00:10:45   So, I guess—I don't want to spoil Westwood, you can't really talk details about it.

00:10:50   But—

00:10:50   Pete: Generally, I think.

00:10:52   John: I thought it was, I really enjoyed it a lot, and I'm actually up to episode,

00:10:57   there's 10 episodes in a season, I'm actually up to episode three rewatching it.

00:11:02   Pete; Oh, that's good. I haven't gone back, I've watched some episodes twice when they came out,

00:11:07   and I haven't rewatched the whole thing. Kelly Guimont and Don Melton have a podcast, actually,

00:11:15   called, was it Hello from the Uncanny Valley? It's now on the Incomparable Network. But they've done,

00:11:20   they did episodes, they started a little late, they did a bunch of episodes about the show,

00:11:24   and now they're going to rewatch and do more episodes about it, because we've got a whole

00:11:28   year to kill, so they'll be doing more. But—

00:11:30   It's one of those things like the usual suspects, where when you rewatch it and you know

00:11:35   future plot twists, and then you watch, and you're like, "Oh, they totally set that up!"

00:11:42   There's so many moments like that in the first few episodes that play completely differently.

00:11:46   Just throw away lines and it's all of a sudden—the first time watching it, you didn't even notice

00:11:52   the line of dialogue, but then the second time, it gives you chills.

00:11:56   It's like, "Whoa, that's creepy," because you know things that you didn't know then.

00:12:00   It's that layering.

00:12:01   It's like, I think you can tell when something—this is always my thing.

00:12:05   I actually feel this way about software, too—is you can tell when stuff is rich and deep,

00:12:09   when people go back.

00:12:10   I mean, it works in literature, it works in filmed entertainment, it works in software.

00:12:16   There's the discovery and there's the richness.

00:12:18   So, you go and you look at something and you find out that what you thought was a certain

00:12:21   depth is deeper and deeper because they went, they layered, they went back around and around

00:12:25   and around.

00:12:26   And you know, you could overwork stuff too, like a bad, you know, a bad dough when you're

00:12:30   baking, but if it's done right, the richness kind of like, comes up from the bottom and

00:12:35   the more you pay attention, the richer it becomes.

00:12:38   Pete: Do you think you would like to, like, if you were in that future, would you like to go

00:12:42   on vacation to Westworld?

00:12:44   Pete: That's a great question because, right, this is the, you know, are you William or are you,

00:12:48   I don't want to give any spoilers away, are you another character in the show? Other characters,

00:12:53   like, I don't know that I would because I think this is the, I think people have different amounts

00:12:58   of dopamine in their brain, right? There's different ways of expressing dopamine and

00:13:01   other chemicals that give us happiness and there's people who get great joy in their life

00:13:07   out of, like, doing ice cliff climbing, right? And I don't need that. I have this kind of natural brain chemistry

00:13:14   I'm very fortunate to have where I think I am not far off the—when I have a success in my life

00:13:20   or I'm doing something that I really enjoy doing and I'm feeling very good about my performance doing it,

00:13:24   I think I achieved maybe 90% of ice cliff climbing. I don't really need that extra 10%.

00:13:30   Excuse me. And some people—it's not even thrill-seekers.

00:13:33   It's more like a way to achieve a certain state of like, advanced happiness requires

00:13:38   doing something extreme.

00:13:39   And I think Westworld is that, it's a great representation of that, because, you know,

00:13:44   right now, that used to be something like, you know, just to say, it's like people

00:13:47   go to Thailand, or they go to other places where there was a, you know, Demimonde, or

00:13:52   really off-the-grid kind of quality, and they can pay for anything they want.

00:13:55   They can do things, they might be able to harm other people, like go do bare-knuckle

00:14:00   fighting and worse.

00:14:02   Westworld is kind of an encapsulation. It's like a cleaned up version of it where, you

00:14:06   know, it's not giving anything away to say that there are robots called hosts who look

00:14:10   very, very human. They're Android, they're indistinguishable, essentially, and you can

00:14:14   do stuff to Android, so it doesn't count, right? You're in this other place, it's,

00:14:17   you know, what happens in Westworld stays in Westworld, and I don't think I have that

00:14:21   desire to—I like the idea of being able to step outside myself into a different time.

00:14:25   If I was going to explore, like, something like Colonial Williamsburg that was Westworld

00:14:30   quality and are part of the story, that sounds interesting, but I don't really have the

00:14:34   desire to leap into a less controlled environment. There's actually a series of books called,

00:14:40   it starts with The Many Colored Land by Mary, or was it LeMay? I'm blanking on the name,

00:14:47   I'll see if I'm wrong. But it's a future where, again, this isn't a spoiler because

00:14:52   it's explained in the first few pages, it's a future beyond ours in which things are much

00:14:58   more advanced and totally civilized, and there's a small galactic community of different species

00:15:03   that interact very well, and it's very boring and there's no risk, and people are definitely

00:15:09   boring. And someone discovers a tiny portal to the past. It's a one-way portal, takes

00:15:13   you six million years into the Pliocene, I think, and the idea is that when you walk

00:15:17   through it, you'll never come back. There's no way to return. So, a lot of people, they

00:15:20   actually, governments try to repress it, then they set it up as kind of an exile thing.

00:15:24   who really want a totally uncontrolled experience, they're not allowed to take technology back,

00:15:29   just their own knowledge, and they go there, and it's actually a really beautiful exploration

00:15:33   of that same kind of thing. Like, Westworld is that. Like, all right, I want to go some

00:15:36   place where the normal rules don't apply, but there are no consequences. Oh, Julian

00:15:42   May, I'm sorry, is her name. Would you go to Westworld is my question. Do you want a

00:15:48   Westworld experience?

00:15:49   I it's a very close call for me. I

00:15:52   Would note no joking I

00:15:57   I have no desire to have a sexual intercourse with an Android no matter how

00:16:05   Realistic for the same reason that

00:16:10   Because if they're not super realistic, it's gross and if they're indistinguishable from humans

00:16:15   it's indistinguishable from cheating on your wife.

00:16:18   - Exactly, right. - I don't, I, you know.

00:16:21   So, going back to sex with robot hookers,

00:16:25   no, I probably-- - Robot hooker, coming through.

00:16:27   - Right, but they're very nice,

00:16:29   so I might chat them up at the bar,

00:16:31   because they're all very good talkers.

00:16:34   I would enjoy having a drink with Maeve.

00:16:36   But that part, now--

00:16:39   - You know, here's a secret I've read

00:16:41   by reading accounts of sex workers.

00:16:43   Sex workers say they spend a lot of time

00:16:45   talk to their clients. There are some sex workers that say most of the regulars, they

00:16:50   don't actually have any form of sexual contact with them. They just need somebody they can

00:16:54   pay to talk to and they don't want to go to a therapist and they have a long-term relationship

00:16:57   where that's the case. So, that would be totally within the scope, I think, of the

00:17:02   Westworld design.

00:17:03   So, I just want to go and talk to an intelligent robot about whatever with no holds barred.

00:17:06   Pete: Right. And I, would I like to go back and have like an adventure where I go out

00:17:14   with a crew and try to catch a bandit and shoot him dead,

00:17:18   knowing that if I get shot, it's more like getting

00:17:20   hit by a paintball type thing.

00:17:24   Maybe.

00:17:25   I think when I was younger, definitely.

00:17:27   Because I was never serious about it,

00:17:30   but I've played paintball a couple of times

00:17:31   and had fun doing it.

00:17:34   I don't know that at age 43.

00:17:37   I don't know.

00:17:39   My time for stuff like that is maybe over.

00:17:42   Skylighting and Westworld.

00:17:44   But it also seems like there's other people there who are just sort of exploring, right?

00:17:49   Remember the family that—there was a black family with a small child who met Dolores down by the

00:17:57   river one time. So it seems like there are people who go there not for any kind of debauchery,

00:18:03   but just, you know, like a family vacation, like, "Let's go," right? I do think—I think that it's

00:18:08   It's a very thoughtful show.

00:18:11   There were-- I regretted it to some degree,

00:18:15   where I started reading the wrap-up shows that go into detail

00:18:20   and people taking screen captures.

00:18:23   There was one point where they have these iPad-like devices, which

00:18:26   I think were pretty well done.

00:18:28   They're very thin, but not quite see-through.

00:18:31   But they also are like tri-folds, like a tri-fold wallet.

00:18:35   So they kind of fold up.

00:18:37   they fold up to be like a, maybe like an iPhone Plus type thing,

00:18:42   and then you can unfold it twice and get more of an iPad style thing.

00:18:47   And somebody took a screen capture at one point of one of them

00:18:50   that seemed to say that the show takes place in the 2150s or 2015

00:18:57   or something.

00:18:58   Oh, I wasn't paying attention to that.

00:18:59   Interesting.

00:19:00   Or 2050?

00:19:01   I don't know.

00:19:02   2050 sounds more reasonable because--

00:19:05   well, I don't know.

00:19:06   - No, no, no, but it's 2050.

00:19:07   'Cause you're looking at what the culture is

00:19:09   of the employees, but the employees are really sequestered

00:19:12   at the park, they seemingly all live there,

00:19:14   or that's where they, you know,

00:19:15   they don't seem to go anywhere else.

00:19:17   - Right, I think that, I don't know

00:19:18   if the screenshot really indicates, I don't know.

00:19:21   I think they do pay attention to details,

00:19:22   who knows if that's right.

00:19:23   But I think gut feeling-wise, that's when the show,

00:19:25   it clearly isn't like super far in the future,

00:19:28   but it's clearly significantly beyond where we are.

00:19:33   - Yeah, I like the computers.

00:19:35   I like the presentation of technology in it, and oh, you know, the thing that I think is

00:19:39   the best telling detail they got right is the way Anthony Hopkins controls Androids.

00:19:46   Did you love that? That it's subtle? That he does one finger or he just says, "That's

00:19:52   enough now." And he just say it in a normal tone of voice. It's like a Siri thing. He

00:19:55   doesn't have to say, "Android 75, halt action and proceed to program 5B," which

00:20:00   is what I feel like everything in the 1970s would have been.

00:20:03   I saw a funny cartoon on Twitter the other day where somebody was talking to somebody

00:20:09   else and they didn't like where the person was going and they just said, "analysis."

00:20:13   [Laughter]

00:20:14   Oh, man. Shannon Woodward, who is one of the cast members of the show, who I follow on

00:20:19   Twitter, and without giving any spoilers, one of the interesting things in the show

00:20:25   is, you get to the end of season one and you're like, "Whatever happened to—did they really?"

00:20:30   So there's people we don't know who has contracts for season two, but there are clearly things

00:20:34   planted that make it clear. And if you go, there's a Westworld, a site for Delos, the

00:20:38   company that apparently owns Westworld. And there's details being revealed. Like, they

00:20:42   must have a one-year-plus social media, like, marketing plan, because they are already,

00:20:48   like, leaking stuff, and you have to go through. It's like a little online adventure stuff.

00:20:52   So Shannon Woodward posted this very funny thing. She plays Elsie in the show. She's

00:20:56   one of the behavioral technicians, works directly for—

00:20:59   One of my favorite characters.

00:21:01   Yeah, she's great. She's great. And, you know, again, no spoilers. I loved her early in the

00:21:05   season, and she's also a very righteous person on Twitter, so great to follow, because she's very

00:21:10   active in promoting for, you know, things like justice and equality. But she tweeted

00:21:14   something last night. She said, "My dad, who was a real programmer, was excited to see how

00:21:18   Siri had been updated. He said to Siri, 'analysis,' and Siri dumped out a bunch of hacks." And her

00:21:26   father, I think her father recognized it, or what do you say, he went to Reddit? It's

00:21:30   Unicode text, and if you look it up, it's a bunch of emoji that relate to the show.

00:21:35   Pete: Really?

00:21:36   Pete; Yeah. If you, if you said to Siri, if you say, you can ask Siri questions that are sort of

00:21:41   Westworldish related and she will respond and say things like, "That doesn't look like anything to

00:21:45   me." So, they updated it right away, I think. I don't know what happened earlier, but people

00:21:50   weren't reporting on it. And then after the finale, Don Melton was saying, "Probably a Westworld fan."

00:21:55   you know, super fan, somewhere in the Siri team,

00:21:59   adding more responses, but the hexadecimal

00:22:02   emoji code was pretty good.

00:22:04   I only looked up one of them.

00:22:05   - Who says Siri isn't getting better?

00:22:08   - It's great.

00:22:09   One of them was just like a cactus.

00:22:10   I didn't look up all of them, but I looked up one.

00:22:12   - Let me take a break and thank our first sponsor.

00:22:18   It is our good friends at MailChimp.

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00:22:45   MailChimp has grown so far beyond just email newsletters.

00:22:50   The store stuff is amazing.

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00:22:53   but it's so much stuff.

00:22:54   and they really hook up to a lot of the main e-commerce platforms that are out there.

00:23:00   So if you do have some kind of store, what they can do is help you, for people who opt

00:23:04   in to an email thing from you, is based on what the people have bought and opted into,

00:23:11   not like a creepy type thing, but send them emails that they might actually want to get

00:23:15   with stuff they might actually want to buy.

00:23:18   It is super...

00:23:21   There's like a renaissance in email newsletters.

00:23:24   Because I think, you know, back in the day, people signed up for everything was going through email

00:23:29   because that was like the first way people got on the internet and then all of a sudden everybody

00:23:32   realized I'm getting way too many emails for stuff that I don't want and it kind of got a bad rap.

00:23:37   But then it's like water seeks its own level and I feel like there is a right amount and there are

00:23:43   a lot of newsletters, a fair amount that I sign up for that I love and I'm happy every time I see

00:23:47   them in my inbox. MailChimp is a way that you can create your own. So the store stuff, that's great.

00:23:54   if you have a store. All sorts of other great reasons. It integrates with

00:24:00   WordPress, you can integrate with Facebook, Shopify, there's one that

00:24:05   integrates with an online store. All sorts of ways that you can hook MailChimp

00:24:10   up to whatever platforms you're already using for whatever kind of thing that

00:24:15   you want to send people to. Pricing. You can send 12,000 emails a month to a list

00:24:20   up to 2,000 subscribers with MailChimp's forever free plan, though a few features are only available

00:24:27   to paying users. So you could send an awful lot of email to a lot of people for free with MailChimp.

00:24:31   As a paying customer, you can send more than 12,000 emails a month, you can access additional

00:24:39   features, and you can remove MailChimp's badge from your campaign footers. So where do you go

00:24:45   to find out more. Just go to MailChimp.com. No secret code, no slash or anything like that. Just

00:24:51   go to MailChimp.com and you can get started. Great service, long-time sponsor of the show.

00:24:56   They always sponsor the bar at the live talk show. So, my thanks to MailChimp for, once again,

00:25:02   sponsoring the show. Wow, they're brave. That's a very brave thing to do. Sponsoring the bar.

00:25:08   Well, the first time, I've often said this, and I do the intro at the show,

00:25:14   I have such very nice-- the Daring Fireball audience is very good people.

00:25:20   And the first time I did the live talk show-- well, it was the second time, I guess,

00:25:28   because it was the first time at the place where we always have it now in San Francisco,

00:25:33   a place called Mezzanine. And we had a minimum, and it seemed easily hit.

00:25:41   the first year we did it, though, we didn't hit the minimum for the bar. Because people—and

00:25:46   I think what happened was that—I said that it's an open bar and it's free, but I didn't emphasize

00:25:53   enough that, seriously, drink as much as you want. Go have a second or a third.

00:25:57   Oh, that's sort of sweet. People were so reserved.

00:25:59   Right. People were like, "Well, I'll have one, but I don't want to stick Gruber with a big tab."

00:26:04   But it was—we actually didn't reach the minimum. So ever since I always tell that story to the

00:26:09   audience, you know, that like, seriously, drink, you know, we've, we've never had problems

00:26:12   hitting the minimum.

00:26:13   That's, that's pretty, that's adorable. That is a very lovely audience when you have to

00:26:17   encourage them to spend, you know, to use the money that sponsors.

00:26:21   And they have different tiers of booze. Like you could just do beer, beer and wine. You

00:26:27   can, you know, um, you know, you could, but I get the top shelf booze, you know, like

00:26:32   the name brand, you know, vodka and stuff like that. Like instead of, you know, uncle

00:26:36   Joe's, you know, Uncle Joe's Russian special, you know. I gotta say, you know, whatever

00:26:42   you want. If it's back there, it's supposed to be there. Have as much of it as you want,

00:26:46   and MailChimp will just pick it up. It's very easy for me to be generous, too.

00:26:51   "Uncle Joe's booze. I like it. The fire's bathtub gin. Money will buy."

00:26:55   Right. Well, it's funny, though. It's gotten the other way around now. Like, there's—it's

00:27:02   like I think when we were kids, like if the gin was made locally, it's like, "Watch out!"

00:27:07   You know? It's like, "Better schedule a trip to the eye doctor because you might go blind."

00:27:13   Whereas now there are so many craft distilleries. I can't even tell you, I was just looking the

00:27:18   other day, there's a section in the liquor store here where it's like made in Pennsylvania,

00:27:22   and there's so many gins being made in Pennsylvania now, and they all have like these

00:27:27   amazingly exquisite, designed labels, you know, they all look excellent. It's not,

00:27:33   you know, like, the local stuff is expensive now. It's not, it's not…

00:27:36   [Laughter]

00:27:36   Pete: Oh man, I had a friend who wanted to start years ago, like, I think it was almost

00:27:40   20 years ago, he wanted to start a local craft distillery as a distill pub. No such thing

00:27:46   existed in Washington state. He'd been a brewer, had run, you know, brew pubs and worked

00:27:50   in breweries, had, you know, done the craft thing. He was totally capable of it and the

00:27:54   the state didn't know how to license it. But he was trying to buy this bar in the Georgetown

00:27:59   area in Seattle, which is this little weird spot that bars operated during prohibition.

00:28:04   There was this very weird exception or exclusion or scam or something. So, it was like the

00:28:09   longest operating bar in North, continuously operating bar in North America. He was almost,

00:28:14   he was going to try to buy it with investors to turn it into the state's first distill

00:28:18   pub and one of the first ones in the country, I think, maybe at the time. And they couldn't

00:28:22   pull it off because no one knew how to license it. But now it's like, I don't know if you

00:28:25   have, no, there are distill pubs. I've seen places, I don't know what they call it, sorry,

00:28:29   distill pub is not the right word.

00:28:30   But uh,

00:28:31   Pete: I know what you mean though.

00:28:32   Pete; Place of eunuch's command, distill pub.

00:28:33   [Laughter]

00:28:34   But yeah, but any places that are doing like, certain kinds of liquor on site, which is,

00:28:39   which is, I think that's really cool. It's like, you know, this is, we're trying, we

00:28:43   sort of, Westworld's indicative of this, right? There are things about the 19th century

00:28:46   that we idealize and we'd like the neat, clean, cool component of it because it seems

00:28:52   more real to us.

00:28:53   Yeah.

00:28:54   It's just another one of those little things, though, that makes me feel like I was born

00:29:00   at the right time.

00:29:01   I don't know.

00:29:04   Maybe it's my personality where whenever I had been born, whether it was the future

00:29:08   or further in the past, I would have—I have a personality type or I would think I was

00:29:14   born at the right time.

00:29:15   But just little things like the fact that I was around as a kid when computers were

00:29:19   were super simple and you could totally understand

00:29:22   the entirety of how the computer worked

00:29:24   as like a 12 year old.

00:29:25   I love that.

00:29:28   There's a part of me that is a little jealous

00:29:30   that my son is growing up in a world where

00:29:34   at the age of 12 he's got a MacBook Pro.

00:29:36   I mean, it would have been very impressive

00:29:38   to 12 year old John Gruber,

00:29:40   but I feel like it was right for me

00:29:42   that I was clacking away on an Apple IIe at school.

00:29:48   my 12-year-old is programming in JavaScript and other stuff, and I'm like, "You know,

00:29:51   at 12 I was soldering RS-232 C ports on my 8K computer, so I feel bad. I mean, I'll open up

00:29:58   a computer to change something out," and the kids freak out slightly, like, "Can you really do that?"

00:30:02   Not like it's illegal, but more like, "Won't that break it?" I'm like, "No, no, you can actually

00:30:06   fix things." It's sort of a sad—

00:30:09   But in terms of consumable beverages, I like to drink coffee, but I like really, really,

00:30:15   really good coffee, and a generation ago, there was no such thing. I mean, I realize

00:30:21   there were some people who kept the art of it alive, but as a mass-market product, you

00:30:26   know, like, people went into the supermarket and bought a can of Maxwell.

00:30:32   I think this is the best time in history to be alive for coffee, because for most of coffee's

00:30:36   history it was not made well, except in limited places, if you could get the beans and it

00:30:42   was all there, like you had to be in just the right spot at the right time.

00:30:45   But when we were kids, the coffee that our parents drank wasn't even made out of Arabica

00:30:50   beans.

00:30:51   It was made out of—it wasn't even really coffee.

00:30:54   It was made out of some other, like, weird cheap bean.

00:30:57   Were they chicory-based or is that something else?

00:30:59   I don't know.

00:31:00   There's some difference.

00:31:01   I could ask Marco.

00:31:02   I'm sure he could.

00:31:03   It was a brown—I thought they melted brown crayons in water.

00:31:07   The basic story is that good coffee from Arabica beans needs a certain kind of climate and

00:31:14   certain type of atmosphere, and that's why it tends to grow at the top of mountains and certain,

00:31:19   you know, regions of the world where the temperature's right. It's very particular about

00:31:24   where it will grow well. And then there's another type of coffee bean that'll grow anywhere. And

00:31:30   that's like what the coffee of like the late 20th, you know, this post-World War II 20th century

00:31:37   America was made out of, because it was super cheap.

00:31:40   The coffee cycle is so funny too, is our mutual friend Tonks, as Tony connects me, he, I met him

00:31:47   first, I think we talked about this in some episode before, but in 2004, I met him when he

00:31:52   was the head roaster at a local coffee shop that had started up that was trying to be more of a

00:31:57   community coffee shop again. They were trying to reclaim from Wi-Fi already, and I went to my first

00:32:01   cupping in the back of that store when I was reporting the story, and then Tony left and,

00:32:05   you know, kind of traveled a bunch, and he started his own brand. That got sold to Blue Bottle.

00:32:09   And then, you know, and he's, you know, he's kicking around doing stuff, but I'm like, now

00:32:15   cupping is like such a standard thing.

00:32:18   Like, it's a thing people expect.

00:32:20   Like the sophistication, even of 2004, now seems almost quaint.

00:32:25   And when Howard Schultz just announced that he was stepping down to see Starbucks, he

00:32:29   did it at the 15th Avenue, I think it was the 15th Avenue, roasting place, which is

00:32:33   Starbucks' new model for a place that is like a roasting center with cuppings and high-end

00:32:38   coffees and the whole bit. Like, it's now a thing they are commercializing and pushing out as a,

00:32:43   you know, high-end experience, as a, you know, repeatable deal. And that's, you know,

00:32:48   that's already where we're at. So what's the next refinement? Like, there's got to be, like,

00:32:50   10 years from now we're going to be looking at that as course and quaint, I'm sure.

00:32:54   Pete: And, you know, in the evening hours, I enjoy the occasional adult beverage,

00:32:59   and it's, there's never been a better time. I mean, it's, if you like beer, like, when my

00:33:06   My dad was my age. The only beer that there was was the mass-market Pilsners, you know,

00:33:13   they all tasted the same.

00:33:14   Yeah, unless you lived in a small town someplace or people did, you know, the home brewing

00:33:18   thing was starting up, but those were usually, they were, you know, they're quirky. No,

00:33:24   there's never been a better time to have a sophisticated palate, probably in the history

00:33:29   of the world, in terms of—this ties into technology. So you know how Mark and Dries

00:33:32   and other people have pushed these charts that shows how everyone has the kind of stuff

00:33:37   that previous generations would have dreamed of. Everyone has a TV, everyone has a DVD,

00:33:41   a lot of people have phones, even if they're like living below the poverty line, they have

00:33:44   a cell phone on a pay-as-you-go-pant—like, all of these certain signs of material success.

00:33:49   But this is the point that people made about the Apple phone, you have made this point

00:33:53   over and over again, is the iPhone is the same price no matter how rich or poor you

00:33:58   And I think the beverage thing falls in the same thing.

00:34:01   You can get, I mean, obviously you can spend a lot of money on beverages, but you can spend a few dollars for a drink,

00:34:07   let's say $5 to $10 for a drink and get one of the finest drinks ever made in human history.

00:34:12   Now, you can go up from there, you can spend $15 for civet poop coffee or whatever for a cup of it and a million dollars for champagne,

00:34:20   But this lower tier, generally accessible, even if it's a special occasion price, is achievable by like most of humanity in the developed world.

00:34:29   Yeah, it's amazing. And you know, I think that there was a… I don't know, you know, I think there was sort of a pride in post-World War II America at the sort of homogenization of culture.

00:34:44   Mm. Mm hmm.

00:34:45   It seemed right, like when my grandfather was a young man,

00:34:49   all the beer came from local breweries.

00:34:51   Every town of a certain,

00:34:53   every town with 10 to 15,000 people had a brewery

00:34:56   that made the beer for the town.

00:34:58   And then in my dad's generation,

00:35:00   the Anheuser-Busch's and the Coors became such a thing,

00:35:06   and TV rammed this home that,

00:35:11   you didn't drink like Philadelphia beer,

00:35:14   drank the same Budweiser that everybody drank. You drank American beer. But it was all bland,

00:35:21   all watered down for the--

00:35:22   - I hate that taste.

00:35:23   - Right.

00:35:24   - Metallic taste.

00:35:26   - And the craft brewing revolution certainly started-- I was in college in the late '90s. It

00:35:33   had already started, but it was still obscure. And so when you'd go to parties, if they had beer,

00:35:38   it was just cheap bland stuff. So I just thought, "Well, I don't like beer."

00:35:43   Which is crazy in hindsight, because I love beer.

00:35:47   But I love very particular kinds of beer.

00:35:50   And I just also think that it's such a wonderful world right

00:35:55   now for somebody who truly is obsessive about something

00:35:58   like that, like Tonks, and that he can just go and start

00:36:01   his own coffee company.

00:36:03   Whereas in the 1960s, that's not how it worked.

00:36:06   It was infeasible.

00:36:07   You had to be like Procter and Gamble.

00:36:09   It was like a billion dollar thing.

00:36:12   there was no way for somebody, you know, like two people, you know, to start a business

00:36:16   where we're going to send coffee around the world by mail order.

00:36:20   There's a great book by an editor I've worked with for years at The Economist, who's now

00:36:24   the deputy editor, Tom Standage, called History of the World in Six Glasses. It's maybe like

00:36:29   a decade old now, and he looks at it's beer, spirits, coffee, tea, what's the other one?

00:36:39   like, "I forgot all six." It's tea and coffee, beer and spirits, and I forget the two. But it's

00:36:45   basically a history of how civilization advanced through the perpetuation of certain kinds of

00:36:51   drinks because of how—

00:36:52   Pete: What was the name of this book?

00:36:53   Pete; A History of the World in Six Glasses.

00:36:55   Pete; Huh.

00:36:55   Pete; And it's six different things, but like, tea is an amazing thing because it's got antibacterial

00:37:02   properties, you boil the water to drink it, it replaced the small beer, which is like a very

00:37:07   low-alcohol beer that was drunk, that was given out to factory workers in England and

00:37:11   other places. They were given a certain quantity of beer to drink every day and it was very

00:37:14   low alcohol, but they were always mildly, you know, inebriated. Tea was a healthful

00:37:19   beverage.

00:37:20   And it revolutionized factories because people were—

00:37:22   Pete: It focuses the mind.

00:37:23   [Laughter]

00:37:24   David: Exactly. But people were living in places with bad water supplies, you know,

00:37:27   whatever, so it improved health, so it was healthy, it was anti-bacterial, and it didn't

00:37:31   get you drunk. And so, it became the beverage of temperance and so forth. And anyway, it's

00:37:35   a lovely book because he argues, and very persuasively, that certain, like, the advancement

00:37:42   of society isn't, it's not that we got tea because we're at a certain point in civilization

00:37:47   where it's possible to have like a global supply chain, it's more like tea actually

00:37:50   influenced the industrial revolution significantly.

00:37:53   Which is cool.

00:37:55   Pete: Fascinating.

00:37:59   I have long, I, it's one of those things where I've never really done the deep dive, but

00:38:04   I will at some point find a couple of good books on it and really go deep on it.

00:38:12   But I have a fascination with the Prohibition in the United States.

00:38:20   Because it's another one of those things where it happened—I knew the basic years of when

00:38:26   it happened, around 1920 or so, and it only lasted about 12 years, and it led to the rise

00:38:34   of gangsters who'd run booze into the cities and Al Capone, blah, blah, blah. But as a kid,

00:38:39   it just seemed like, "Well, that was a long time ago, and it's over." But then when you become an

00:38:47   adult and you realize just how 100 years ago really isn't that long, right, in some ways.

00:38:54   Pete: No.

00:38:55   Michael, in the world did making alcohol illegal ever gain popular support?

00:39:03   that they'd pass a constitutional amendment. Like, to pass a constitutional amendment,

00:39:08   something has to be overwhelmingly popular.

00:39:10   Pete: You know what it was? It was fake news, John. It was fake news.

00:39:14   It was, like, mothers spread these, you know, the lies about drinking were spread and believed.

00:39:21   John "Slick" Baum: In light of our recent election here in the United States and how the

00:39:26   fuck did this happen? It's soothing to me mentally to think back to other times where,

00:39:33   you know, there were what the fuck were we thinking moments in U.S. politics.

00:39:39   And—

00:39:39   We have cycles. Hey, we're about to have our first tea-totaling president,

00:39:43   and I don't know how long.

00:39:44   That's an interesting thought.

00:39:45   I—that's—

00:39:46   He doesn't drink, and I, you know, I reflect—like,

00:39:48   Trump has no vices except lying, and he's lying about that, right?

00:39:53   Right.

00:39:53   But he said he didn't drink, so I assumed it was a lie. It turns out he's absolutely sincere. People

00:39:59   have said they've seen him drink in the past, but it may have been decades ago and there have been

00:40:03   confirmation people have been with him, you know, enemies and friends and people who are former

00:40:07   friends. Like, he doesn't drink alcohol. He doesn't seem to have any alcohol, which is,

00:40:11   and it's not a, it doesn't seem to be a moralistic thing. His brother, I mean, he has a family history.

00:40:15   Pete: He had an older brother who, you know, literally a long time ago, I guess,

00:40:21   It's a drunk himself.

00:40:22   Jared: In early '80s?

00:40:23   It died, but he, you know, pretty much drank himself.

00:40:25   Pete: Yeah, drunk himself to death, right, yeah.

00:40:26   And I'm, so I mean, you know, you can see that, like, there are signs of Trump, like

00:40:29   things like that, that I think maybe the man has some empathy, compassion, or at least

00:40:34   insight, self-corrective capability, but it is fasting.

00:40:38   It is fasting to have a president who, I don't know how much Obama drank, I think he liked

00:40:43   the beverage.

00:40:44   We know he indulged in some cigarettes before he was elected and then, maybe he didn't


00:40:48   Jared; No, he smoked, he didn't quit until after he was elected.

00:40:49   Pete; Oh, that's right.

00:40:50   And then occasionally, there's reports, maybe he sneaked a cigarette here and there,

00:40:53   right, at sight. But he's mostly quit, stuffed thing. But it's Trump being a teetotal. I don't

00:41:00   think it'll have any impact. I don't think he's going to go out. He's never been a temperance

00:41:03   advocate. But I think when I've read things, here's the weird thing about this guy, right?

00:41:09   There are times that I read things he says and I go, "But this is very reasonable." And I've read

00:41:13   things he said in some middle of long interviews about his brother. And sometimes he's a little

00:41:18   harsh about it, but often he is very sympathetic to what the brother went through and very

00:41:22   sympathetic to the effect it had on the whole family and how sad it was he died young. And

00:41:26   I'm like, "All right, well, you know, I like to know there is a human being under

00:41:30   there somewhere."

00:41:31   Pete: He is a bit of a cipher. It is one of the weird, I mean, whether you, you know,

00:41:34   again, whether you like him, don't like him, or somehow are indifferent.

00:41:39   [Laughter]

00:41:40   Pete: A very small percentage of Trump voters are actually celebrating, from what I can

00:41:45   tell. They're all concerned what's coming next too because they don't know if he's

00:41:48   going to do what they promised him either.

00:41:49   One of the odd-- well, he's not.

00:41:53   One of the odd things about him, though, is that he does--

00:41:56   his personality seems to be a bit of a cipher.

00:42:01   Whereas Obama, I think, wears his personality

00:42:04   on his shirt sleeve, much like Bill Clinton and, I think,

00:42:08   too, George W. Bush.

00:42:10   I think Elsa, yeah.

00:42:11   That's right.

00:42:12   I think Hillary is guarded, famously.

00:42:15   But there are widespread reports, though,

00:42:17   from the people who are close to her that in person she's very warm, funny, and empathetic.

00:42:24   But on the campaign trail, for reasons that we won't get into, because it's, you know...

00:42:30   But she publicly put up sort of a more serious, guarded personality.

00:42:41   But—

00:42:42   Pete: Yeah, I'm wondering if we'll see, we'll probably see the Hillary in the Woods

00:42:45   photos "Give Me Life" because she looks like a great weightless drop-offer despite

00:42:51   what's coming next.

00:42:52   But isn't—

00:42:53   Jared: But you never hear stories about like, the real Trump from the people close to him.

00:42:56   Like there doesn't seem to be one.

00:42:57   Pete; There's no real Trump.

00:42:59   Jared; But talking about his older brother really does, I do believe, I'm with you,

00:43:03   where 99% of the stuff out of his mouth I don't believe, but when he talks about his

00:43:07   brother it seems sincere that he, you know, and that it really did, you know, he saw what

00:43:11   happened and he decided, "I'm not going to drink." And the other thing that's very self-aware about

00:43:15   it that I saw, the New York Times had a good story about this way earlier in the campaign,

00:43:20   was the other thing that he said about it was, it wasn't just, "Well, I saw what happened to

00:43:24   my brother and decided not to drink." He also, very self-aware, said, "I also know that I'm not

00:43:31   much for moderation, personally." You know?

00:43:34   Pete: It's amazing from him. Wow!

00:43:35   [Laughter]

00:43:36   Jon Hayser, Ph.D. You know, and looking, like, look at the way he decorated at his home!

00:43:40   Pete: Yeah, well, and he also occasionally, like, the unguarded Trump is fascinating because he's,

00:43:44   he's, you know, a bully and a fascist in certain ways. And then he says things like,

00:43:48   when it came up about transgender bathroom bills, like in North Carolina and elsewhere,

00:43:53   his first reaction, someone asked about it, he said, "Well, people should go to whatever

00:43:57   bathroom they're comfortable with." And I was like, "Well, that's cool! Like, I'm good with

00:44:00   that." And then his campaign walked it back and wrapped it and put it into Republican phraseology

00:44:04   and, you know, whatever. But his first reaction, you know, is people should just make whatever

00:44:09   choice they want for themselves, it doesn't really affect other people, which you could

00:44:12   argue is a little bit of a narcissist choice too. But it was a more, that was his honest

00:44:16   reaction. I'm like, I'm curious how much of that kind of blunt honesty we're going to see versus

00:44:22   the, you know, tendencies towards much worse behavior. I'm not optimistic per se, but I'm

00:44:27   trying to be curious because we will see things that are going to be totally unexpected

00:44:32   from a Republican elected president. They're going to not conform with any of my, my wife says,

00:44:37   she said this a number of times, the reason that we're feeling anxiety, and I think this goes for

00:44:41   Trump voters as well. I think there are a number of Trump voters who feel exactly the same way.

00:44:45   I mean, some are elated, but I think that's a small percentage compared to the largest number

00:44:50   of people who voted for him, is she said he defeats our ability to predict the future. We

00:44:54   all have a little internal prediction capability, and he breaks that and you feel anxious. And

00:44:59   that's also what people talk about with fascism, not necessarily directly for him, is that fascists

00:45:04   and abusive domestic partners and people in those categories, they try to unsettle you so you never

00:45:09   know what's coming next, so you live in a constant state of anxiety. I don't think that's his plan,

00:45:13   but I think that's how we feel, that's how I feel, that's how my wife feels.

00:45:16   Pete: Right.

00:45:17   [Laughter]

00:45:19   Pete; How about that technology? How about that new power dual-charter?

00:45:27   [Laughter]

00:45:28   Pete; Let's talk about something that we know works.

00:45:30   Pete; Who says I'm not good at segues?

00:45:33   That's great. So you had a story at Macworld. I think it just came out yesterday. Wait, wait, I would interrupt you. All right

00:45:38   segue

00:45:40   Magic loop. Did you see about the ostensibly faked magic magic leap demonstration? No, tell me about it

00:45:46   You may want to talk about it. I own all the details

00:45:48   But you know, it's a it's one of these new VR things and Kevin Kelly wrote a really breathless piece earlier this year for Wired

00:45:54   He got a demo. He got to see it and it's a bunch of super intelligent people involved in it

00:45:59   They're running the lab in Florida away from Silicon Valley. Oh

00:46:02   Like next level like whatever everyone's working on now that's being released in demo. This is the thing beyond it is how it's being hyped

00:46:09   Well, they put out a demonstration video and then it came out that it was actually like a Hollywood produced Hollywood style produced video

00:46:16   That does not actually reflect any hardware they have already

00:46:18   So I was just thinking this when you said segue I was thinking like yes

00:46:22   Remember how the segue changed the world magic leap is right up there with it. Sorry. That's my segue

00:46:27   They there's a some sort of tour here in Philadelphia where you can I don't know if it's I guess it's history historic sites

00:46:35   But oh, yeah historic sites are all very close to each other frankly

00:46:40   But I see them occasionally where there's obvious tourists with helmets on on segues on a tour

00:46:46   You know like usually somewhere around eight to ten of them

00:46:49   There's somebody in the front who's clearly the tour leader

00:46:54   And it just seems like the dumbest way to get around.

00:46:57   (laughing)

00:46:59   Like I do, I love the idea, I'm fascinated by the idea

00:47:04   that the thing self-balances on two wheels,

00:47:08   but the segues themselves are so stupid.

00:47:11   - Oh yeah, I mean, I just remember the whole,

00:47:13   the breathless, it's gonna change the world,

00:47:15   the patent filings are amazing,

00:47:16   they think the people investing, like Jeff Bezos,

00:47:19   think this will be, change the way cities are built.

00:47:22   - Right.

00:47:23   Steve Jobs trashed it.

00:47:25   - Yeah, I'm not surprised.

00:47:26   It's like, eh, and it's a really cool scooter

00:47:28   that has certain applications, it's done pretty well.

00:47:31   Anyway, I'm sorry to interrupt,

00:47:32   but Magic Leap just got me with that.

00:47:35   Like they thought no one was gonna figure out

00:47:36   it was a faked or produced demonstration.

00:47:39   - Do you know what I got?

00:47:41   I have the Google Pixel.

00:47:45   - Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. - Pixel phone.

00:47:47   And I got the VR headset, I forget what the,

00:47:51   I forget what the, I can't remember what the name of it.

00:47:53   They have a Daydream.

00:47:55   I haven't used it a lot yet, but it's pretty neat.

00:48:00   I mean, I forget how much I paid for the headset,

00:48:02   but it wasn't too much.

00:48:04   I mean, once you've bought the phone for $800

00:48:06   or whatever it costs, the $75 headset is a neat add-on.

00:48:11   It's really pretty good.

00:48:13   Although it does, Jonas was really into it,

00:48:17   but it does get hot.

00:48:19   It eventually tells you that it couches.

00:48:24   It's sort of like, remember when the Wii would tell you

00:48:27   to take a break, the Nintendo Wii?

00:48:29   - Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

00:48:31   - It told Jonas to take a break,

00:48:33   but it wasn't really for his well-being.

00:48:35   It was because the phone had overheated

00:48:38   and needed to cool down.

00:48:40   But it's actually pretty good.

00:48:41   The latency is really, really good.

00:48:43   Like, I was, what I thought was wondering

00:48:44   if it would pick up.

00:48:46   But I can also completely see why Apple

00:48:49   hasn't built such a thing.

00:48:51   That's not ready yet.

00:48:52   They want the thing.

00:48:53   They want the thing whatever magically intends to make,

00:48:56   which they may not be able to achieve.

00:48:59   That's what Apple would prefer.

00:49:00   Right.

00:49:02   I don't-- it baffles me that people don't see this in Apple.

00:49:06   So one of the things when people complain about the new MacBook

00:49:09   Pros, that they're not pro enough,

00:49:12   that they're not performance heavy enough.

00:49:14   Like, they're like, other companies are making laptops

00:49:17   that you can drive high-end VR helmets from.

00:49:21   And it's like, well, that's, of course they are,

00:49:26   'cause that's what the PC industry always does,

00:49:30   is build whatever, you know.

00:49:32   That's why gaming PCs exist, that the PC,

00:49:36   for some people, it's just a generic box

00:49:38   that you can use it to drive any computing task you want.

00:49:41   That is not what Apple does.

00:49:44   Apple doesn't make generic boxes that you can make other things from.

00:49:47   If Apple's going to make a VR helmet, the VR helmet itself will be the computer,

00:49:52   and it will have the graphics and screen that it needs to be--

00:49:56   Oh, yes.

00:49:57   That makes a lot of sense.

00:49:58   Right.

00:50:00   They're not going to work on making the phone into a jerry-rigged VR screen,

00:50:06   even though it's possible.

00:50:07   And the Pixel thing is good enough that it's neat.

00:50:10   But it's, you know, you can also, it's also, it's not retina resolution. I mean, you can totally see the pixels of the things that you're, that you're seeing.

00:50:18   And it's, you know, it's just clunky to stick your phone into a helmet. And same way that it's clunky to have a helmet that's literally tethered to a laptop computer.

00:50:29   Like, maybe if you hold your watch up really close to your face, it'll simulate, no, I'm sorry. But no, I think you're right. I think it's unlikely.

00:50:37   Apple makes an operating system that is capable of being adapted to a lot of different circumstances,

00:50:45   but they don't make hardware that has general purpose. I mean, I think that's the MacBook

00:50:49   Pro is really more of a niche computer now. It doesn't have the same general appeal.

00:50:55   I've been saying that about the 12-inch MacBook since it was released. It's not like the MacBook

00:50:59   Air, which was for a lot of people. The 12-inch MacBook is more particular because it makes

00:51:04   you make choices and if it doesn't fit your needs then it's not the laptop for you and

00:51:07   the MacBook Pro is much more restrained or restricted than the previous models of MacBook

00:51:13   Pro.

00:51:16   But speaking of those…

00:51:17   So you wrote a review this week of this Nuertech NuPower, N-U-P-O-W-E-R. I've already got

00:51:24   a link in the show notes. NuPower, it's a 60 watt power adapter that has two outputs.

00:51:31   One of them is a USB-A, the old school USB, and then the other one is USB-C. And you can

00:51:36   use them at the same time.

00:51:38   So you could plug this into the wall and then take your existing cable you charge your phone

00:51:45   with, the rectangular USB-A, plug that in, plug your phone in, and then with a new 13

00:51:53   inch MacBook Pro or the just plain MacBook, you could charge that from the USB-C at the

00:51:58   same time.

00:51:59   Yeah, it's pretty slick and it comes with a six foot AC cable. So you're using your six foot

00:52:04   USB-C charging cable that came with the MacBook or MacBook Pro you have you know 12 feet suddenly if you want that from Apple you

00:52:11   Have to pay a the adapter is I think more ungainly

00:52:14   B you have to pay if you don't have one around you got to pay I think it's $20 or $90 to get the six foot

00:52:21   Extension for the power adapter that comes with your with your Apple laptop, so I like that

00:52:26   I mean, so right, so it's like a cable, it's kind of like an offset.

00:52:30   So if you've got a 12-inch MacBook, it's sort of ideal because you plug this in to one port

00:52:34   and you plug in your, you know, iPad or iPhone to charge the new power thing, and you also

00:52:40   have six foot of cable beyond that, so you can have your cable, you know, your Type-A

00:52:45   to whatever cable, and your laptop cable, and a long AC cable, and it's 50 bucks for

00:52:51   the whole thing.

00:52:52   I think it's a great replacement or traveling alternative because it seems to fit all these

00:52:57   bases.

00:52:58   And 60 watts is an interesting number because it's clear they design it more around, they're

00:53:02   like 45 watt PCs that this also works with.

00:53:07   It works with anything with USB-C charging, power delivery 2.0 is the spec, which is a

00:53:12   lot of devices.

00:53:13   And so the, you know, the MacBook, 12 inch MacBook is 29 watts.

00:53:16   There's some 45 watt laptops and so forth.

00:53:19   The MacBook Pro 13-inch models are 61 watts.

00:53:23   - Yeah, which is crazy, right?

00:53:25   Where, what? - Yeah.

00:53:26   - I don't understand that.

00:53:27   - Apple's very specific about how they like

00:53:29   to map batteries to charging,

00:53:30   and they just do exactly what they want.

00:53:32   It's weird.

00:53:33   - Well, it's the first one I can think of, though,

00:53:34   that's such an odd number.

00:53:36   Like, the-- - Well, no, the MacBook

00:53:37   is a 29-watt charger.

00:53:38   - Oh, I guess you're right.

00:53:39   - And the MacBook Pro is 87 watts,

00:53:41   and somebody told me, I didn't look this up,

00:53:43   that the previous MacBook Pro, the 15-inch one, I'm sorry,

00:53:45   was also 87 watts.

00:53:47   So they have a very specific power profile.

00:53:51   They don't like to make a generic charging thing.

00:53:53   So the new power is probably not appropriate

00:53:57   for a 15-inch MacBook Pro because it will be hard

00:53:59   for it to keep up if you're doing anything

00:54:00   that's pulling power down.

00:54:01   For the 13-inch, it'll keep up almost as quickly.

00:54:05   I mean, it's 3% off.

00:54:07   So it will charge while you're using it,

00:54:09   and it might charge a tiny bit slower.

00:54:11   If you plug in a USB Type-A device to charge,

00:54:15   it'll take away from the charging

00:54:16   going to the USB-C port.

00:54:19   So if you're charging an iPad at 2.4 amps,

00:54:22   that's 12 watts at five volts.

00:54:24   And that, so that'll be, you know,

00:54:25   12 watts would be subtracted from the 60

00:54:28   if you're doing that and you have a 13-inch MacBook.

00:54:30   But I think in a lot of cases,

00:54:31   it's a really nice alternative.

00:54:32   And it's got, you know, it's not a square little thing.

00:54:35   It's like longer, it looks more like a traditional one,

00:54:38   but it's very lightweight and it's got rounded edges.

00:54:40   - Only thing I think I don't like about it though

00:54:41   is I don't like that to plug this into the wall,

00:54:44   you have to use a cable.

00:54:46   It has, you know, it's one of the,

00:54:48   so this is the brick, but it's,

00:54:50   you plug a power cable into the back,

00:54:52   and then it's a six-foot cable that goes to the wall.

00:54:54   So like, there are some cases,

00:54:56   some situations where you do want that,

00:54:58   but there's others, like when you're,

00:54:59   like when I'm in a hotel,

00:55:01   usually most hotels now have like a desk

00:55:04   where there is like a power on the desk.

00:55:07   And it's not, you know, like I don't need it.

00:55:09   The six-foot cable is just gonna be in the way there.

00:55:11   Like I kind of-- - No, it's true.

00:55:12   - I wish that I could just plug it right in, you know,

00:55:15   like it had the prongs on the thing.

00:55:18   - That's true, I think that's the drawback,

00:55:19   is if that's what you want,

00:55:21   then you can always carry the original one.

00:55:23   But no, I think that is the drawback,

00:55:26   'cause you get extra cable that way with that option.

00:55:28   But I think, and I have that same issue,

00:55:31   although I'll get to a hotel,

00:55:32   and by the time I got stuff plugged in,

00:55:33   or if you're gonna wanna work,

00:55:34   I'm often hunting around for an AC outlet.

00:55:37   And some of them have power strips,

00:55:38   I bet in some newer, or not newer hotels,

00:55:39   but retrograde ones, power strips.

00:55:41   - Right, or maybe it would be nice if it,

00:55:43   again, this would obviously make it a lot physically bigger.

00:55:46   So maybe I'm not thinking it through,

00:55:49   but it might be nice if it had one of those cables

00:55:51   that you could like, it would retract,

00:55:53   you know, like the way like most vacuum cleaners work now,

00:55:56   you can retract the cable.

00:55:58   - Oh yeah, we're gonna see a lot more USB-C chargers too.

00:56:01   I mean, it's taken the power delivery spec.

00:56:04   So I actually interviewed for an article

00:56:05   that's gonna come out in Fast Company about USB-C,

00:56:08   like why it's so hard to figure out what cables are good.

00:56:11   Like why isn't there some group?

00:56:13   I mean, my conclusion, spoiler, is that the death of magazine test labs is basically why

00:56:18   we're having problems with USB-C. Like, it's not – so, I talked to the head of the USB

00:56:21   implementers forum, the USB-IF and the chief operating officer, and had a great talk about

00:56:26   like where does Type-C fit into the ecosystem and what are you guys responsible for? Like,

00:56:30   where does your point end? And one of the things the president told me is he said really

00:56:36   frankly, this isn't your grandma and grandpa's USB 2.0. He said it's much more complicated,

00:56:42   and we're seeing more problems because it's a

00:56:45   much more complicated and difficult spec.

00:56:46   It does so much more.

00:56:47   And so, they're not surprised, but it's what

00:56:49   manufacturers want.

00:56:50   It's not like the USBIF invented a difficult spec

00:56:54   and it's being inflicted on customers.

00:56:56   It's like all of the major computer and mobile

00:56:58   makers are all involved with USBIF or they're on

00:57:01   the board or they're deeply involved in the

00:57:03   standards process.

00:57:04   They wanted this to happen.

00:57:05   Ultimately, in a couple years, maybe a year,

00:57:07   we're all going to be delighted that we have,

00:57:10   maybe we still have lightning, but we're

00:57:11   of lightning, that seems like it's going to happen, but we have one cable and one thing

00:57:15   that works every goddamn place, and then new displays will all have USB-C support, and

00:57:20   new everything will have it, and we'll say, "Why do we make such a big deal about this?"

00:57:25   Because the pain of transition and finding the adapters that don't exist and legacy support

00:57:30   is a pain, but I think it's really a net positive for it.

00:57:35   And so the power part is particularly difficult.

00:57:36   There's something called Power Delivery 2.0, which is, as far as I can tell, is the first

00:57:41   widespread implementation in products of a non-proprietary,

00:57:45   standards-based, but trade group-owned,

00:57:47   but non-proprietary spec for doing power

00:57:50   that's above like 15 to 30 watts.

00:57:52   It can go up to 100 watts.

00:57:54   There are previous USB specs that allowed this,

00:57:56   but from what I can tell,

00:57:57   I don't know that many devices use them.

00:57:59   They're very specific and you need a specific adapter.

00:58:02   This is the first generic way that's already in millions

00:58:05   or maybe even tens of millions of shipping products

00:58:07   that supports above 12 or 15 watts.

00:58:10   a standard way and interoperable, interchangeable adapters. So, the ecosystem I think is about

00:58:15   to sort of like, the chipset issue is a big deal. Every, John, you know this, right, like

00:58:21   lightning, every lightning and Thunderbolt 2 cable had a computer in the tip of every

00:58:26   cable, right?

00:58:27   Pete: Right.

00:58:28   I did know that.

00:58:29   Pete: And so, the same thing is true with USB-C and that makes it more complicated.

00:58:30   It's all, USB-C is like, you're plugging a computer that looks like a cable into your

00:58:35   computer's port that has a controller and they have to talk to each other. And so, like,

00:58:39   that right means the controller chipsets and the USB-C cable chipsets all have to

00:58:45   be in this incredibly perfect alignment and that is I think what's been taking

00:58:49   so long and we're starting to finally see the benefits of it you know already

00:58:52   like a almost two years into the rollout and next year will be very different.

00:58:57   I think one of the underestimated easily overlooked but fascinating to me the

00:59:03   things that's going on in hardware everywhere today.

00:59:08   Whether you're in the consumer electronics business in the car

00:59:14   business, everything is that every individual component is

00:59:21   slowly but surely turning into its own to being a computer. I

00:59:25   know, right? Oh, you're totally right. And I know Joanna Stern

00:59:27   and I talked about this on about the Mac, but about the touch

00:59:30   But it's fascinating to me.

00:59:32   It just is.

00:59:33   Every time I look at this review unit and I just think about it,

00:59:36   it just pleases me to no end that the Touch Bar is an iOS

00:59:40   computer in my Mac computer.

00:59:44   I find it just makes me smile.

00:59:47   It just cracks me up.

00:59:48   Because just like we were talking about half an hour ago,

00:59:51   like when we were kids, a computer was super expensive.

00:59:57   And you'd get like 64 kilobytes of memory, and it was enough money.

01:00:02   Luxury!

01:00:03   Right!

01:00:04   And it was a lot of money, and you had to be very careful, and it was quite large.

01:00:10   And now there's a much better computer than that in the tip of your Lightning cable.

01:00:15   The analog-to-Lightning adapter has a GSP in it.

01:00:19   I mean, it's a $9 cable, and that computer is probably more powerful than my first personal

01:00:24   maybe even my second person.

01:00:26   I mean, could it do, is it as powerful as a Commodore 64?

01:00:29   Maybe not, I'm not sure, but it's certainly

01:00:32   as powerful as my first computer.

01:00:33   - In some ways, it surely is.

01:00:35   There are certain, some aspects of it

01:00:37   that are surely faster than a Commodore 64.

01:00:39   It's crazy.

01:00:40   - Well, this is like storage.

01:00:41   How many terabytes of storage do you own now, personally?

01:00:43   Like 10?

01:00:44   - I don't even know.

01:00:45   - You don't even know.

01:00:46   I have at least, I don't know, I've got seven or eight

01:00:47   lying around, maybe more, and I probably got

01:00:49   two or three terabytes in the cloud,

01:00:51   and we are gonna laugh at how small it is,

01:00:53   that is, like the way that 50 gigabytes seems ridiculously tiny. Like, I backed up 80 gigs,

01:01:00   I added more, I use Backblaze for my desktop machine backup, and I'm like, "Oh, you know,

01:01:05   I didn't have this part of this drive backed up." So, I add it, it says, "Oh, that's 80 gigs,

01:01:09   I got gigabit internet." It added it in like an hour or something. And it just seems so laughably

01:01:14   small, even though it's enormous. And so, you know, in five years, we'll have like 50 terabytes

01:01:18   of storage and we won't be thinking about it much either.

01:01:21   (laughing)

01:01:22   Gets bigger, everything gets bigger, faster, better.

01:01:25   - Let me take a break and we'll come back to that

01:01:30   because one of the computers in our computers now

01:01:34   are the computer that's inside AirPods,

01:01:37   which still haven't shipped and I'd like to talk about that.

01:01:40   - Oh yeah, yeah.

01:01:41   - I'm gonna take a break here and thank our next sponsor

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01:01:47   You know Fracture, it's the photo company

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01:02:02   Orders placed today are shipped after Christmas.

01:02:05   We are recording, you're hearing us record

01:02:07   on Friday, December 9th.

01:02:10   I'll bet the show comes out on Saturday, December 10th.

01:02:13   So whatever point you're listening to me tell you this, if you were going to get people

01:02:18   fracture gifts for Christmas, you had a great idea.

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01:03:45   up on your desk or on a mantle or wherever you want to put it. And it looks so cool because

01:03:50   it's just this edge to edge design. There is no frame that's necessary. It's just a

01:03:54   piece of glass with the picture edge to edge. Looks so great. So go check them out. Get

01:04:03   your own pictures printed. Pick up some gift cards if you want to for the holidays and

01:04:08   haven't ordered already, and go to fractureme.com/podcast. That's the name, that's the URL. They don't

01:04:17   care which podcast. Everybody's podcast gets the same URL. But then, when you order, they

01:04:23   ask a one-question survey, which is, "Where did you hear a fracture from?" And you can

01:04:26   tell them you heard about it right here on the talk show. My thanks to Fracture. Told

01:04:31   you it was going to be—they're going to get backed up. Listen to me next time.

01:04:35   Love their stuff. I need to order some but I didn't need them for presents. I got a I'm gonna remember that so airbrite

01:04:40   You know air pods still haven't shipped as I said, we are recording on Friday December 9th

01:04:45   And so it's like HBO and Westworld. They had a stock production. They had a reengineer the world to Apple and Apple's and they're getting

01:04:52   Very close to being to missing the holidays. I have heard just in the last 24 hours

01:04:59   I have heard not from like a very well-placed little birdie, but from a birdie

01:05:04   that there's a possibility that there are whispers in Apple,

01:05:09   among people who work in Apple retail,

01:05:11   that they might actually come in quote unquote

01:05:13   the next few days.

01:05:15   - Oh my God. - But nobody has,

01:05:16   but I asked and I was like, well, is it like a token amount?

01:05:20   Like, well, some of them are coming

01:05:22   and we're gonna sell them to some people,

01:05:24   but you've got no chance of actually getting one

01:05:26   because they're gonna be instantly back ordered

01:05:28   six to eight weeks.

01:05:29   Is it that type of shipping?

01:05:31   Or is it like you have a reasonable chance of getting them,

01:05:36   walking into an Apple store and walking out with AirPods?

01:05:41   And the answer was no idea.

01:05:44   This is, in my opinion, the biggest Apple

01:05:51   screw up in recent memory.

01:05:54   - I gotta agree, 'cause, so, let me,

01:05:58   I'm gonna bump up one level. - The only thing I can

01:05:59   - I'll compare it to one other thing,

01:06:02   and I think that this is worse,

01:06:03   is the, I think it was the white iPhone 4.

01:06:08   - Oh yes.

01:06:12   - So when the iPhone 4 came out,

01:06:14   that was the one with the glass front and back,

01:06:17   and I think that was the one that didn't ship, right?

01:06:22   And it kind of got lost, I think,

01:06:25   in the shuffle of Antennagate,

01:06:27   because that was the phone that had Antennagate.

01:06:29   - That's right.

01:06:31   - It was supposed to, there were black ones and white ones,

01:06:33   and the white ones, the black ones came out in June

01:06:38   on schedule, and then Apple said something to the effect

01:06:41   of we're having a little problem with the white production,

01:06:43   we expect them in July, like one month late.

01:06:46   And July came and went, and then Antennagate hit,

01:06:50   and everybody remembered that.

01:06:51   But the white iPhones didn't ship until May,

01:06:56   the next year, April or May, like almost a full year.

01:06:59   And I remember it vividly because my wife wanted

01:07:03   to get the white one and she waited.

01:07:07   And then by the time it got to April or May,

01:07:09   she was like, well, I'm not stupid,

01:07:11   I'm not gonna buy a new iPhone now,

01:07:12   the new one's come out.

01:07:13   Even though the 4S, that was when they first moved

01:07:16   the schedule back from June to like September.

01:07:20   So she ended up with her, I think she was using her 3GS

01:07:23   or whatever for two years.

01:07:25   But I would say this is a worse mistake because at least with the iPhone 4, if you wanted an iPhone 4 you could get it, you just didn't get it in the color you wanted.

01:07:35   Whereas if you want AirPods, you can't get them.

01:07:40   Yeah, this is, it seems bad to introduce something that is a fundamental part of a major change

01:07:49   you're making and then not have the engineering and production in place to release it. Seems

01:07:54   like a big F up. I was gonna say, I want to bump up one level, not to avoid the topic,

01:08:01   but I mean, there's always this metaphor. Like, you know, Apple is Hillary Clinton,

01:08:06   Samsung is Trump, right? You know, without even a political discussion, it's kind of

01:08:09   And so, Apple removes headphones and you have think pieces and whatever.

01:08:13   You posted something about this other day.

01:08:15   Samsung says, "We're not going to have a headphone jack."

01:08:18   I'm sorry, headphone jack, rather.

01:08:19   Samsung says, "We're not going to have a headphone jack on our next flagship phone."

01:08:22   Everyone's like, "Well, it's just Samsung, right?

01:08:24   Of course."

01:08:25   You're like, "But wait, but you're so angry!

01:08:27   Why were you so angry?

01:08:28   Like, it's a technology company.

01:08:29   It's a decision.

01:08:30   There's all these trade-offs.

01:08:31   Why were you so, like, furious?

01:08:33   Like, there was white-hot fury about it."

01:08:35   And you could argue it's because there's more of an emotional connection with the iPhone

01:08:38   with the iPhone and there are fewer models

01:08:41   and there is not that emotional connection with Samsung,

01:08:44   but it is sort of hilarious.

01:08:45   But if you're gonna take the headphone jack out

01:08:47   and you're gonna deal with the repercussion

01:08:49   'cause you know people have been keyed up

01:08:51   to be angry for weeks and months

01:08:52   as the rumors are out there,

01:08:54   there is something desperately wrong with that.

01:08:56   Something very bad happened to reach this point.

01:08:58   I mean, 'cause--

01:08:59   - There's no doubt in my mind.

01:09:00   I've talked to several people, you know,

01:09:04   I can't say with 100% certainty,

01:09:05   but I'm as certain as I could be

01:09:07   that there was absolutely zero coincidence to the fact

01:09:11   that the iPhone 7 is the first iPhone

01:09:14   without the headphone jack

01:09:16   and was introduced alongside AirPods and W1 chip.

01:09:21   That was completely in coordination.

01:09:22   AirPods-- - They wanted

01:09:23   to ship simultaneously.

01:09:24   - AirPods were in development for three years.

01:09:27   Engineering and design started three years ago

01:09:31   and it was a year ago when they felt like they were

01:09:34   at the point where they can say,

01:09:35   yes, these will be ready in September 2016.

01:09:39   Therefore, we can go ahead with this design of the iPhone that

01:09:44   doesn't have the headphone jack and this, that,

01:09:47   and the other thing, or now we can make the camera bigger

01:09:50   and move the battery down.

01:09:51   And all the other side effects of being

01:09:54   able to remove the headphone jack

01:09:57   was completely in coordination.

01:09:59   And yes, they did not.

01:10:00   And they knew then--

01:10:01   Apple knew.

01:10:02   I didn't know.

01:10:03   But Apple knew that they were relatively expensive

01:10:06   and therefore were not going to be included in the box.

01:10:10   So even though they're not in the box and cost $150,

01:10:18   and therefore-- which is a lot to pay for headphones

01:10:22   by most people's standards.

01:10:23   And therefore, they knew it's not

01:10:25   going to be like everybody with an iPhone 7

01:10:27   is going to spend $150 for AirPods.

01:10:30   it was absolutely in lockstep with each other,

01:10:34   that they weren't going to ship a phone without a headphone

01:10:36   jack without the new wireless AirPods,

01:10:40   and they weren't going to ship the AirPods

01:10:42   with a flagship phone that still has the headphone jack.

01:10:47   And so I think if Apple knew--

01:10:49   I really do think so.

01:10:53   I think if they knew that they were

01:10:54   going to be as late as they are, I

01:10:56   don't think that they would have removed the headphone jack

01:10:58   this year.

01:10:59   Well, remember, if you look at the design of the phone, am I wrong? My recollection

01:11:03   is after the teardowns came out that both phones have technically have room for a headphone

01:11:09   jack, so they must have given themselves—and there's a space where it could have gone,

01:11:13   so they must have given themselves wiggle room at some point.

01:11:16   I thought there was room for it.

01:11:18   No, well, I guess—

01:11:19   There's a space where—well, maybe I'm wrong. I was wondering how much wiggle room

01:11:23   they gave them, because they have to lock in the circuit board design and everything

01:11:26   else, you know.

01:11:27   in very far in advance. Like, whatever they're coming out with next year is already completely locked in.

01:11:32   I feel terrible for whoever on the team, whichever people on the team at whichever levels from top to bottom,

01:11:39   either made an error in judgment or just were ahead of—I mean, this is the thing. So, this will seem

01:11:47   like a sidebar. I'll be brief with it. But, you know, I wrote a piece in March, I think, for Macworld about

01:11:52   why you should probably not become a backer of Kickstarter and other

01:11:56   crowdfunding projects

01:11:58   involved mass manufacture items that aren't totally interchangeable and known

01:12:02   like a book like everyone knows how to print a book

01:12:05   public in a brick book printer could be late but they don't suddenly say we

01:12:08   don't know how to put ink on pages we try to put the ink on the pages and the

01:12:12   ink fell off and we have to work with you to develop a new way

01:12:16   to put ink on paper because the one you propose doesn't work

01:12:19   So, that typically doesn't happen.

01:12:21   It happens constantly in the production of,

01:12:26   especially electronics, but a lot of things where,

01:12:29   if you follow the folks at Studio Neat,

01:12:30   they have a great podcast that Mike Hurley is hosting,

01:12:33   where the two guys, Dan Provost and,

01:12:35   my black hair's name, and Tom Gerhart,

01:12:40   the two of them, these wonderful guys.

01:12:42   I've met them so many times,

01:12:43   I'd be embarrassed to make them their names.

01:12:45   Oh, geez.

01:12:46   Well, they're lovely people, they do really good products,

01:12:48   really interesting stuff they make, and they have a podcast about making their latest thing and

01:12:52   talking about it, and it's really fascinating because you get the insight into people who do

01:12:56   have a, you know, a moderate-sized company but not a very big one, and what the constraints are when

01:13:01   you're doing all of these manufacturing things. So, I'm just sort of backing it out into the like,

01:13:08   like, so I understand from talking to people at sort of Dan and Tom's level, and some folks in

01:13:13   bigger corporations when they'll talk more frankly about like, just what happens when you get from

01:13:17   there's a stage between, I think you've written about it too,

01:13:20   there's been people that have written articles

01:13:22   about this, of course, between like prototype

01:13:23   and production, there's this thing where you deliver stuff,

01:13:26   you work to get something that's closer and closer

01:13:27   to what's actually going on in a production line,

01:13:29   then there's a point in which you make units

01:13:31   on the production line and they work,

01:13:33   and then you go into this full scale thing

01:13:34   in which there's QA and QC for,

01:13:37   or QC for the products coming off the line, right?

01:13:39   And it's horrible, and the fact that any consumer

01:13:43   electronics company can produce things routinely

01:13:45   on any schedule is always amazing.

01:13:47   So Apple's track record is really good.

01:13:49   So is Note 7 excluded, but sort of part of it.

01:13:53   So is Samsung.

01:13:54   So are a lot of other companies

01:13:56   that just produce huge numbers of new models of things

01:13:59   and they're super complicated.

01:14:00   - Even with the Note 7, the problem wasn't with production.

01:14:04   The problem was with the design.

01:14:05   I mean, that's--

01:14:06   - Right, they made a bad choice.

01:14:07   - Right, I mean, I've read enough articles from people

01:14:10   who've taken it apart. - No, you're totally right.

01:14:12   - Everybody's in near unanimous agreement

01:14:15   about what's wrong.

01:14:16   put too big of a battery in too small of a space and therefore led to the positive and

01:14:21   negative sides touching it under physical strain.

01:14:25   And they, you know, the post-mortem's going to be they should have realized this in the

01:14:29   prototyping stage well in advance of going to production and done something about it.

01:14:32   But so when I—so, you know, you know all those things. There's this mystery, though.

01:14:36   This is what I think Dan and Tom get at well in their podcasts, and you can read stories

01:14:39   about this all over. Like, there's this incredible thing about—we know, and I think

01:14:43   It's one thing that Johnny Ives does really well.

01:14:45   It's something that I think Tim Cook, as coming from that deep knowledge of the supply chain,

01:14:50   and you know, it kind of got him onto the CEO path, understanding how you bring different

01:14:55   things together and what is feasible.

01:14:58   Kazanami used to consult on this for high-tech companies, where he would look at what they

01:15:01   had in the lab, he would look at what their customers actually wanted, and he would help

01:15:05   them match those things together, what was feasible and what people wanted, to turn it

01:15:10   into something that was manufacturable or producible.

01:15:12   It is an incredible art because you're modeling machines in your head that make things on

01:15:20   these massive scales.

01:15:21   So, it's not surprising this happens from time to time, it's just Apple is so good at,

01:15:26   in general, executing it that something went deeply wrong when they thought they could

01:15:30   make some part of this and it would work 100% of the time, and they got to it and they're

01:15:34   like, "This works 98% of the time."

01:15:35   I mean, it could be as, it's probably as little as that, too, based on what the reports were.

01:15:39   Yeah, secondhand talking to a friend who has a friend who works on the AirPods team, it is,

01:15:45   these things are a bitch to manufacture. And they knew it was going to be, but there's something,

01:15:50   you know, some part of, "Hey, we've got a, you know, I'm holding a pair right here in my hands,

01:15:58   and I'm not trying to brag, you know, but it's very surprising to me that I, here we are on

01:16:04   December 9th, and I've got AirPods and nobody else does."

01:16:07   It's that late in the process that—

01:16:09   that a problem occurred.

01:16:10   - You know, I've got right here in my hands proof

01:16:13   that there's somewhere there, there was, you know,

01:16:16   by September there was a factory in China

01:16:19   that was pushing out very good high quality AirPods.

01:16:24   And somehow though, being able to spool that up

01:16:29   to punch out the millions of them

01:16:32   that they need to punch out, they've run into something.

01:16:35   Now again, I've heard that,

01:16:38   and this is from a different source, but I've heard that it's possible that by the time you

01:16:42   even listen to this, they might be out if you're listening like next week. But I wouldn't be

01:16:46   surprised if, you know, they get pushed out to January. Something has gone terribly wrong.

01:16:53   Pete: My suspicion, based on the fact that they're able to ship units to you and other reviewers

01:16:57   that, from generally reported, you know, I think Matthew Panzareno wrote about this and I think,

01:17:02   I think you, I forget what your experience has been. They're reliable in your experience, right?

01:17:06   They work pretty much the way you do.

01:17:07   if this, they don't work perfectly. Uh, they glitch occasionally, but,

01:17:12   but if, if,

01:17:14   if this is as good as the AirPods 1.0 are going to get, if it's, if,

01:17:19   if the exact experience that I've had and continue to have with these is exactly

01:17:23   what everybody would experience, I would still recommend it wholeheartedly.

01:17:27   And I, I would describe these AirPods as is occasional problems included as my

01:17:32   favorite new Apple product.

01:17:37   I love them.

01:17:38   And my suspicion is this is a QC or quality control problem that they turned on the volume,

01:17:43   they got production units out, they had some yield issues, but they said we can fix the

01:17:47   yields and production.

01:17:50   They pulled out the best of them, sent them through viewers, and then they started turning

01:17:53   the dial up, and when they turned the dial up, the yield was so poor on which I don't

01:17:58   know what their number is.

01:17:59   Yeah, I think it's like that.

01:18:00   That's what I think it is.

01:18:01   Yeah, because they're that far along.

01:18:02   If they're making something they can send to you that is not a one-off item, it is something

01:18:05   came out of production line, it has to be, it's not a software issue, or yours would

01:18:09   be failing all the time too, and so would all the other reviewers.

01:18:11   Every once in a while, the problems I've seen, and they're very similar to what Matthew's

01:18:15   seen, every once in a while, but it's actually, I use them all the time. They're the only

01:18:20   headphones I've used since September, period. Every once in a while, the audio, it just

01:18:29   gets a little stuttery. It's like there's some kind of Bluetooth, you know, somehow

01:18:34   the wireless signal gets jacked and you know usually you can just take them out put them

01:18:39   back in and you know wait a little bit and it fixes itself. Every once in a while one

01:18:47   of them drops out and I've got both in but it somehow mistakenly puts itself into oh

01:18:54   you just want to use one mode because you can do that you can just put one in and it'll

01:18:58   just play through the month even though I have both in like the audio will stop playing

01:19:02   to the right one for a little, and then the way to fix it,

01:19:05   or at least I've fixed it, is take them both out,

01:19:07   put them in the little Tic Tac case, and start over.

01:19:10   But it's only happened to me like twice, period.

01:19:14   And I think that's it.

01:19:17   I mean, that's pretty much the only problems

01:19:19   I've had with it.

01:19:20   Every once in a while, you know,

01:19:21   oh, and the other problem is every once in a while,

01:19:23   switching from one device to another,

01:19:26   it doesn't go seamlessly.

01:19:28   It's not as magic as it should be.

01:19:31   That, I think, though, is more of an iOS problem

01:19:34   than a problem with the AirPods, I think.

01:19:36   I suspect that software, and I've seen that less,

01:19:39   so I wouldn't even be surprised

01:19:41   if that's actually been fixed in one of the recent,

01:19:44   I'm actually running the betas on all my devices.

01:19:49   Like, my phone is still running

01:19:51   whatever the current developer beta of iOS is.

01:19:53   - Oh, yeah, yeah.

01:19:54   - So I wouldn't even be surprised.

01:19:55   - The 10.2.2, I think, just came out.

01:19:56   - I haven't seen that in a few weeks,

01:19:59   Although I pretty much just use them with my iPhone too.

01:20:02   - This makes me think, you know,

01:20:02   actually as I think about it,

01:20:03   I realize because they can push so much

01:20:05   to software and firmware,

01:20:06   my suspicion is even further

01:20:09   that it's not a quality control issue.

01:20:10   I just realized it's the next level thing,

01:20:12   which is they got a bunch of units off,

01:20:14   they went through quality control

01:20:15   and went through automated testing,

01:20:17   they started to pull samples to test,

01:20:19   and they found with samples

01:20:21   that the defect rate wasn't being determined

01:20:24   through automatic testing.

01:20:25   And then they started to test more

01:20:26   they realized that the defect rate was, whatever the defect was, was wider and more complicated,

01:20:32   and that whatever QC process they're using would not be adequate.

01:20:36   Because otherwise, excuse me, if they could make some that are good and some that aren't,

01:20:42   they would have perhaps made a bunch and shipped out a quantity and said, "Look, we're

01:20:45   getting an early amount out.

01:20:46   We have manufacturing problems.

01:20:48   We're going to catch up.

01:20:49   We want to get the people who committed to this earliest.

01:20:51   We're going to send the first 100,000 out," right?

01:20:53   Because even if they lost 100,000, 100,000 units were bad and 100,000 were good, they

01:20:58   might do it because they do like to delight their customers.

01:21:02   That's one thing they do.

01:21:03   So my thinking is they couldn't even get a yield or reliability high enough that made

01:21:08   them confident they could ship out any numbers in quantity until this.

01:21:12   And they also tend to know when they're going to catch up.

01:21:21   So for example, with Apple Watch,

01:21:23   Apple Watch, the original one,

01:21:26   launched and couldn't meet demand.

01:21:30   Not even close.

01:21:31   But their estimates were, if anything,

01:21:35   under-promising and over-delivering.

01:21:37   So like if you ordered an Apple Watch

01:21:41   right when they first started taking orders

01:21:43   and your preferred model said six to eight weeks,

01:21:47   you probably got it in like five weeks.

01:21:51   It seemed, you know, and there were people--

01:21:53   - Oh yeah, and the other thing where they pushed

01:21:54   the unpopular model that developers could get the blue,

01:21:57   whatever the parameters were, which was nice.

01:21:59   It was like we have some that aren't committed,

01:22:01   so we're gonna make them available to, you know,

01:22:03   and that's how a lot of developers made a lot of friends

01:22:06   buying those and selling them off.

01:22:07   - And it's also been true, for example,

01:22:08   with the iPhone 7, you know, where there were

01:22:10   certain models, you know, the Jet Black

01:22:14   and the plus size ones that, you know,

01:22:17   If you didn't get your order in right at midnight Pacific,

01:22:21   you were given a, you weren't gonna get it on day one,

01:22:24   but whenever they were promising, that's when you got it.

01:22:28   You did get it before, and I ordered a couple of them,

01:22:32   and one of them, I don't know,

01:22:33   six to eight weeks or something like that,

01:22:34   and I got it in four weeks.

01:22:36   - Oh, wow, great.

01:22:38   - So whatever's going on with the AirPods isn't like that.

01:22:41   It seems to me like they aren't willing to commit.

01:22:44   Obviously, if they could, if they felt like,

01:22:46   well, we can't meet demand right now,

01:22:48   but within two months we will.

01:22:50   They'd start taking orders

01:22:52   and say six to eight weeks delivery.

01:22:54   - Exactly.

01:22:55   - And the other thing too is that whatever it is,

01:22:57   it was obviously a surprise

01:22:59   and it's sort of like an unknown known.

01:23:02   You know what I mean?

01:23:03   Like they don't quite have a handle on the problem

01:23:05   because I expected, it seemed like Apple expected,

01:23:10   when the invitations went out

01:23:11   for the MacBook Pro event in October,

01:23:15   it seemed as though they were expecting to launch

01:23:17   the AirPods at that event and say they're now available.

01:23:21   And I think those invitations, as per Apple's usual want,

01:23:25   only went out like a week before the event.

01:23:28   So up to like a week before that event,

01:23:30   they still thought that they were gonna launch

01:23:32   in late October.

01:23:33   - I also think, so the narrative about Apple always gets

01:23:37   spun, they're doomed because of X, and we don't do that here

01:23:40   because we know they've got $200 billion in the bank,

01:23:43   I've said, I think under a Trump administration, Apple could do very well because they will

01:23:48   have a deal to repatriate their money and they'll pay some different tax rate and that's

01:23:53   probably going to get solved, right?

01:23:54   So Apple will have even more money to spend in the U.S. that's repatriated.

01:23:58   Like, you know, they're not going anywhere.

01:24:00   But I actually think this is a story that one could argue is the difference between

01:24:04   them and Samsung, perhaps, or a sign that Apple is still on the right track even if

01:24:08   maybe they have too much on their plate that's not executing all in concert, you know, or

01:24:13   not anticipating the USB-C adapter negative response, then they lowered prices.

01:24:18   So Apple didn't ship the AirPods and then say, "Oops, some of them are bad, and take

01:24:23   them into a store and we'll send you a box to return it."

01:24:26   They said, "We can't ship these in good conscience because whatever reason."

01:24:31   Maybe they couldn't even get them off the assembly line, which seems unlikely since

01:24:34   they had review units.

01:24:35   I'm sure they are ramped up to a point to be able to produce them in the quantities

01:24:38   that they needed to ramp up towards.

01:24:40   But this tells me they're more willing to take the hit of customers who are unhappy

01:24:44   to get a thing that they want to delight them by just delaying indefinitely until they know

01:24:49   they can deliver something that's functional.

01:24:51   That is a good sign to me, even because you can't always hit on all cylinders on manufacturing.

01:24:56   And you know, they're losing sales, but are there things that are direct competitors that

01:25:01   someone is saying, "I'm canceling my AirPod order to buy this other thing"?

01:25:05   I think you just have a delay for most people who are going to be a buyer of it.

01:25:09   Right, right. Apple is really screwed because some people who really want wireless headphones

01:25:13   are buying Beats.

01:25:15   Or they're waiting, Apple is sitting on waiting for a few million dollars relative to their

01:25:22   multi-billion dollar earnings.

01:25:24   So I can see the possibilities would be... The best case scenario is that sometime in

01:25:31   the next week, Apple starts shipping them in significant quantity. And I feel like if

01:25:38   If that happens, it'll mostly be all's forgiven.

01:25:42   Although I seriously think that they've shut,

01:25:45   one way they shut themself in the foot

01:25:46   is that the most likely time for someone to buy one

01:25:48   is while they're buying their iPhone 7.

01:25:50   And so there's an awful lot of people who would have said,

01:25:52   well, what the hell, I'll tack on $150,

01:25:55   who now that their iPhone 7 doesn't even feel that new,

01:25:58   it's like, well, that's just my iPhone,

01:26:00   they're not gonna spend $150 on it.

01:26:02   But if they can do it in the next week

01:26:04   in sufficient quantity, it's also very clearly,

01:26:07   a stocking stuffer, right? I mean, like, quite—

01:26:10   Pete: Yeah, yeah.

01:26:11   Pete: In every aspect of the word, you know, it's something—

01:26:13   Pete; It's an expensive gift you get for, I mean, this is, you know, 100 and, what is it,

01:26:16   200 bucks? I forgot.

01:26:17   Pete; 149. Or 159.

01:26:19   Pete; So, it's, you know, it's out of the scale of a lot. It's, you know,

01:26:22   I don't know what families have different limits and whatever, but it's like, you know, we got one

01:26:25   of my kids, one of my, it's a secret, my son doesn't listen, neither of my kids listen to this

01:26:29   podcast. But my older son has a—

01:26:33   Pete; You better hope so!

01:26:34   Pete; I hope so. They, I don't think they listen to, well, they get older, they will. They listen

01:26:37   to the game show episodes of The Incomparable where some of the hosts will say, "Oh no, Glenn's

01:26:41   kids are listening, you know, clean it up." But, so, my older son has a great proclivity towards

01:26:47   music. He is, thank God, not a prodigy because we know happy lives and prodigies do not go together.

01:26:53   But he has a gift. He's a musical talent. It's really neat and he's been learning a bunch of

01:26:57   instruments and his flute is his primary one, but he suddenly got interested in the trombone.

01:27:01   And I'm like, "Okay, I guess we have a small house, but you know, I love hearing him play."

01:27:06   okay, you know, we got a mute for it. So, his mother-in-law, or my mother-in-law,

01:27:09   father-in-law got that as a gift, which is, you know, got a modest model on sale and whatever,

01:27:14   but it's a pricey gift and he'll appreciate it. So, that's kind of, you know, that's out of our

01:27:18   usual scale, but the grandparents are allowed to do that and they asked.

01:27:21   Well, if you look at—

01:27:23   But like, you know, AirPods, we didn't get them AirPods, let me just tell you that.

01:27:26   Right. If you look—oh no, nobody's getting AirPods for good, at least not yet.

01:27:31   I'm getting earplugs, though, that's gonna be my gift.

01:27:34   - If you look at the iPod's sales history,

01:27:37   I mean there's a lot of reasons for the reasons

01:27:39   it ramped up, that the first few years

01:27:41   it was a Mac only product and et cetera.

01:27:44   But it's when they found good models

01:27:47   that could hit that 199 price point

01:27:49   is really when it exploded.

01:27:51   There's something magical about sub $200

01:27:54   in terms of, okay, this isn't something we'll,

01:27:57   it's not a lark, but it's a gift.

01:28:02   So 159 would be great.

01:28:03   If they can do it this week, in quantity,

01:28:07   that would be great.

01:28:07   That's the best case scenario,

01:28:08   and I think it's mostly all's forgiven.

01:28:10   If they ship in the next week or so,

01:28:14   but it's not in sufficient quantity,

01:28:16   and it's six to eight weeks back ordered past the holidays

01:28:20   for just about it for all practical effects, that sucks.

01:28:23   And that's obviously a huge miss for them.

01:28:26   Because it was, you know, the holiday,

01:28:30   getting these things out in time

01:28:31   the ship for the holiday is huge.

01:28:33   There's just no doubt about it.

01:28:35   It's one of those items that's gonna sell

01:28:38   in that spiky, whoa, look at the fourth quarter

01:28:42   sells double what it does in the other three quarters

01:28:44   of the year type product.

01:28:46   And then the third--

01:28:48   - I think it was a poll though,

01:28:50   oh, it was a poll though too,

01:28:51   when people bought AirPods,

01:28:52   they thought AirPod plus the new phones,

01:28:54   so some people delayed getting a new phone

01:28:56   until they could get AirPods.

01:28:57   - Third case scenario would be it doesn't even ship

01:29:00   for in low quantity this month.

01:29:02   - Oh my God, yeah.

01:29:03   - And there was, MacRumors had a story,

01:29:06   you know, somehow sourced to the supply chain

01:29:08   that it's been pushed back to January.

01:29:10   And then the next day they had a counter story

01:29:12   that said, no, no, it's shipping soon.

01:29:14   That's really embarrassing.

01:29:17   And then I guess as terms of what's actually possible,

01:29:21   you can't say it's impossible

01:29:23   that they never even ship them.

01:29:24   - Oh man, that would be very bad for confidence.

01:29:29   - Not on the financial side, a bit, very small,

01:29:32   but the confidence of it would be--

01:29:35   - I guess never seems impos--

01:29:36   But what if it doesn't ship until like July?

01:29:39   Like the white iPhone, right?

01:29:41   - It would just become a, you know,

01:29:42   becomes an albatross, right?

01:29:44   It's like, it's a very beautiful bird when it's flying,

01:29:46   not so much when it's hanging around your neck.

01:29:48   - Again, does not doom the company, but this is--

01:29:51   - No, just--

01:29:52   - At this point, I feel like, you know,

01:29:54   December 9th, I mean, it's probably too close.

01:29:58   I mean, it's, you know, we're talking 15, 16 days till Christmas.

01:30:02   There could be a bunch of people in a factory in China very, you know,

01:30:05   delicately opening up things and fixing a tiny thing or testing them one at a

01:30:09   time.

01:30:10   I don't know this, but I certainly would,

01:30:12   I would bet heavily that there are some normally Cupertino

01:30:17   residents who are spending on all, you know.

01:30:20   Do you remember that story about Tim Cook? It was a great story.

01:30:24   I think it was the thing. Yeah, it's the, um, they're having that meeting.

01:30:27   I can't remember the specific problem. Something was going on in China that was problematic.

01:30:31   He's sitting there as CEO. The person at the table explains it, and they go in the meeting,

01:30:36   and at some point Tim looks at him and says, "Why are you still here?" And the guy walked out and

01:30:41   literally got on a plane to China to take care of the problem. I'm telling you, right? It's close to

01:30:45   that.

01:30:45   Pete: Yeah, it's somebody, you know, Tim said, "Okay, well, you're responsible for fixing it.

01:30:48   You'll have to go there to fix it." And then the meeting keeps going and the guy didn't get up,

01:30:54   up, and Tim Cook says, "Why are you still here?" And so the guy realized that that's

01:30:59   how quickly he wanted him to go, and he drove—he didn't go home and pack, he just drove to

01:31:04   the airport and figured he'd get clothes once he gets to Beijing.

01:31:07   Pete: You can buy clothes in China, I've heard, very easily.

01:31:10   So, I like that it also wasn't that Tim was screaming and red-faced at him, he's

01:31:16   just like, "Why are you still here?" I thought that, to me, set a tone for the Tim

01:31:21   Cook administration, and I think it's followed through pretty well that we expect that he

01:31:27   holds people responsible without it, you know, for the right reason. When things aren't

01:31:32   working, it's going to get fixed, and that's what this feels like from the outside. There's

01:31:35   a bunch of people who are, you know, like, "We've got to get this fixed so I can

01:31:39   be with my family at the holidays at the end of the year."

01:31:42   Pete: Yeah. All right, let me take a break here and thank our third and final sponsor.

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01:35:07   What else is going on?

01:35:12   You see this thing where Apple launched

01:35:15   their TV single sign-on?

01:35:17   - Yes, yeah, they sorta, they launched,

01:35:21   yeah, they launched it.

01:35:22   All right, I'll give them that.

01:35:22   They did launch it.

01:35:23   - So John Pachkowski put it in a tweet.

01:35:25   So just the other day, Apple launched the single,

01:35:27   this is the thing where you can use

01:35:29   your cable service username and password to sign in.

01:35:34   And then all of the apps on your Apple TV

01:35:40   that require a cable service thing to get,

01:35:45   you don't have to log into each one of them individually

01:35:48   and type the four digits from your phone

01:35:50   and blah, blah, blah for each app over and over again.

01:35:53   You sign in once at a system level

01:35:56   and then the apps just pick it up and then they just work.

01:35:59   The problem is that they launched it and they don't have Comcast, they don't have Time Warner Cable,

01:36:05   they don't have Fios, they don't have on the content side, they don't have ABC, CBS or ESPN,

01:36:11   they don't have HBO Go. So it's launched, but and I guess, you know, there's the big ones that I can

01:36:19   see in the list. And maybe I'm underestimating some of the ones, you know, like I've never heard

01:36:24   of some of these like Hawaiian telecom. Well, I guess it's probably local to Hawaii. The ones I've

01:36:31   heard of are DirecTV and Dish. So if you have satellite TV through DirecTV or Dish, you're in.

01:36:37   But without Comcast and Time Warner and Fios, boy, that's, it's, I mean, and hopefully this is

01:36:45   one of those things that it just takes time to get these people on board. And maybe it's not even

01:36:52   so much that they're reluctant to sign up but that they just need time to get it integrated

01:36:57   on their back ends. But this doesn't look good either because this was announced at WWDC

01:37:03   I think, right? And it was emphasized and reiterated in the iPhone event in September

01:37:10   that later this year we're going to roll this out. This is when they announced that the

01:37:15   video app is renamed to TV on iOS. It was announced and I don't, you know, if this is

01:37:24   all they're going to have by the end of the year, boy, that's, it's nowhere near what they were

01:37:28   promising in September. So this is another one where I feel like Apple is really falling short.

01:37:32   I wouldn't have thought they would have announced it when they did unless they had

01:37:37   the biggest services signed on, especially HBO. They have a partnership with, although,

01:37:42   I mean, I guess it's HBO via these providers.

01:37:45   So the provider is still the issue.

01:37:47   But HBO's app is not listed.

01:37:50   So conceivably, even if HBO and the providers couldn't get a deal, then, you know, maybe

01:37:55   HBO has contracts that prohibit them unless providers agree.

01:37:58   Some of the apps are iOS only and some are TVS only.

01:38:03   Most of those are, that are one platform only, TVOS as well.

01:38:09   It is weird because it seemed, I mean, if you didn't have Comcast and Time Warner,

01:38:15   why wouldn't you have, why would you have launched, why would you have announced this

01:38:18   like for pressure?

01:38:19   Like, well, we'll get some of the big ones, you know, they have some of them.

01:38:24   I mean, DirecTV makes sense because the AT&T connection and all that, but it just, it's

01:38:28   uh...

01:38:29   It seems to me to go hand in hand with the AirPods in terms of that it seems like they

01:38:35   were taken by surprise.

01:38:36   Like, they thought that they had this, and it ends up they don't.

01:38:41   Whether it's a negotiation thing that wasn't finalized, or if it's a technical thing,

01:38:45   or a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B, it seems to me that in September

01:38:48   they thought they were going to have this by, you know, around now, end of November,

01:38:54   very early December, and they don't.

01:38:56   Well, we've heard, you know, about AnyQ showing up with an untucked shirt and pissing

01:39:00   off famous detail, and pissing off TV or, you know, executives, whatever.

01:39:04   Right.

01:39:05   I think it was Time Warner, right.

01:39:06   was a time where, yeah, yeah, and it's like, I mean, there is a little, I'm not going to

01:39:10   credit that with being, how real a thing that was, because that came from the cable side,

01:39:15   not from the Apple side or whatever. But it may be that they were just, you know, they've,

01:39:20   Apple has been able to bowl through a lot of deals on the advantage of bringing a ton

01:39:25   of users along and it being a net benefit for subscriptions. There's this related discussion

01:39:30   that on, was it just on tvOS that Apple may drop the fee for subscriptions from 30 percent

01:39:36   to 15 percent. So which would be, it's a nice big carrot to give to any of the cable networks.

01:39:45   And I'm always confused about exactly, I don't follow this closely enough, which premium

01:39:50   channels are owned by which cable or media company. And because the cable companies now

01:39:55   own sort of chains of media companies, it's all slightly interrelated there too. So in

01:40:01   In some cases you're like, all right, well, Comcast is, all the different providers are

01:40:09   going to move.

01:40:10   I mean, everyone knows that eventually it's going to be unbundled, right?

01:40:13   Everything's going to be unbundled.

01:40:15   They're all fighting against it as hard as they can, but we've seen all the cracks.

01:40:18   And AT&T's new DirecTV Now deal is a part of it.

01:40:22   It's not necessarily even financially fantastic unless you do the early signup deal, the $35

01:40:29   hundred channels, like, you know, lock-in, like that's a good deal, I think, but we're

01:40:34   going to come to a world in which bandwidth is one thing.

01:40:36   I've got my gigabit internet as long as it lasts from CenturyLink, which is a, you know,

01:40:41   bottom tier telco that has a lot of copper installed, so they're trying to switch to

01:40:48   fiber, but I have to hope they actually survive and this is viable.

01:40:51   But you know, even Comcast is delivering higher speeds, they're delivering higher caps, there's

01:40:56   these zero rating issues that are coming up with AT&T in terms of how they'll count direct

01:41:01   TV streaming over wireless. Like, there's a whole swirling miasma of things. And I would

01:41:05   have thought in the middle of this that Apple would have been a great tool for the cable

01:41:08   operators to extend value and for the cable channels they own, which are many of them,

01:41:15   to have more people signed up in various ways. So it's baffling to me as a result.

01:41:20   - The single sign-on thing seems to me like, why not?

01:41:24   Like if you were at Comcast, like if you've,

01:41:26   all of a sudden you're an executive at Comcast.

01:41:28   I can see where they're wary of things

01:41:31   that enable cord cutting, right?

01:41:34   'Cause they don't, they, you know,

01:41:35   they wanna fight that and they wanna milk the,

01:41:38   we have these customers paying us

01:41:41   a hundred and some dollars a month every month

01:41:43   for cable TV and that's a really nice deal

01:41:46   and we wanna keep that going as long as we can.

01:41:49   the single sign-on is based on that, right? It's based on the idea that you're still paying

01:41:53   for a monthly thing, right? It's not a cord-cutting thing, so why not get on board with it? I don't

01:42:00   quite get it. Unless it's just technical problems. Unless it's like—

01:42:04   Pete: Because I can do it now, right? Comcast, I can use a Comcast sign-in for

01:42:07   all sorts of things already. They're not preventing me from doing it. This just makes it harder,

01:42:12   right? It's not a—

01:42:12   - Right, it's exactly it.

01:42:14   It's just making something easier for the person,

01:42:18   for the user, that you can already do.

01:42:21   I already have on my, I have Comcast service,

01:42:23   and I have an Apple TV, and I have at least a handful

01:42:26   of apps from cable channels like HBO, the main one,

01:42:31   where I have to sign in with my Comcast credentials

01:42:34   to prove that I have cable.

01:42:36   This would just make it easier.

01:42:37   And so it's a little frustrating to me.

01:42:40   - I have to believe that Comcast

01:42:42   the other big ones think they're going to lose some kind of audience presence to Apple by allowing

01:42:47   Apple to overbrand it. There's also the melding of it, right? The TV app is going to –

01:42:52   Pete: Well, that's different though. Again, I can see why they're not participating.

01:42:56   Pete: Right. Oh, you're right. Yeah, okay.

01:42:57   Pete; Netflix in particular is a holdout on that. And speaking of Netflix…

01:43:01   Pete; But you're right, these other things will though, right? I mean, the TV app will include

01:43:04   a lot of stuff drawn from all these other apps, so it's not necessarily a perfect overlap that

01:43:09   they're not allowing this. It just seems inconvenient instead of a strategy. So,

01:43:14   I have to believe there's something we don't understand. Let's not just peak,

01:43:17   or there's some money that should be changing hands that Apple doesn't want to pay, or

01:43:21   Comcast, et cetera, thinks they're losing out somehow.

01:43:24   Pete: I saw the other day that Netflix became the top-grossing iOS app, and now I just looked as

01:43:29   we were talking and it slipped to number two behind Clash Royale.

01:43:34   Pete; Interesting.

01:43:35   - But it's, you know, now that they,

01:43:38   'cause it used to be that they didn't take signups,

01:43:40   'cause I guess they didn't want to split the money

01:43:42   with Apple, you had to sign up for Netflix

01:43:44   outside of iOS in a web browser,

01:43:47   and then you could sign in with your credentials.

01:43:49   But now that they're taking the in-app purchases,

01:43:53   they're the number two grossing app,

01:43:55   and that's only counting the people

01:43:57   who are paying through iOS, not all of us

01:44:00   who've been signed up for Netflix for years

01:44:03   aren't even in there.

01:44:03   So in terms of like, hey, is Netflix doing well?

01:44:06   That looks like they are.

01:44:08   But I'm curious, this is one of those things

01:44:10   that I've sort of lost track of,

01:44:12   is that whole, okay, we're gonna give some of you guys,

01:44:15   your big name TV channels an 85/15 split instead of 70/30.

01:44:19   Like, did Netflix get in on that, or were they too soon?

01:44:22   Like, is this based on an 85/15 split or 70/30?

01:44:26   I don't know if anybody knows that

01:44:28   other than Apple and Netflix.

01:44:30   - I don't think I've seen anything that's even hinted

01:44:33   that someone knew which ones were involved.

01:44:35   And I have to believe, see,

01:44:36   for Netflix has an interesting situation.

01:44:38   Like Apple doing that second year subscription price,

01:44:41   you know, they're only paying a 15% commission now.

01:44:44   Like that's part of, that's a change

01:44:46   that I think a lot of people found significant

01:44:47   and worthwhile, especially in the,

01:44:49   for smaller companies or some of the bigger ones

01:44:51   that sell subscription stuff

01:44:52   and really rely on the, on in-app purchases

01:44:55   or in-app based purchase system.

01:44:57   But the Netflix may have reached a point

01:45:01   saturated its ability to acquire a market from,

01:45:05   or to acquire customers in a way that they know

01:45:10   the cost is going to be lower than 30%.

01:45:12   So, if they're not getting 15%, they may have said,

01:45:14   "All right, we now need to sweep in people

01:45:16   that we're not getting. Our numbers, our spreadsheet

01:45:18   shows that giving up an extra 15% here is worthwhile

01:45:21   for the first year because pencils out good for us

01:45:24   and we get the money in the second year."

01:45:25   And some of these people may unsubscribe

01:45:27   and resubscribe through the website because

01:45:29   where they're now our customers and, you know, all works.

01:45:32   It's all good now because we're in the last

01:45:33   X percentage people we can reach.

01:45:35   - Yeah, and they seem to have done pretty well

01:45:38   with a fairly liberal policy of shared accounts.

01:45:43   You know, that they're not real,

01:45:44   doesn't seem like they're big on trying to lock down,

01:45:48   like, you know, three or four people sharing an account.

01:45:51   - Right.

01:45:52   - Across a bunch of, 'cause it seems like they're,

01:45:54   you know, they have the right idea, which is, look,

01:45:56   somebody's paying us 10 bucks a month or whatever it is,

01:45:59   and multiply it by the number of X millions

01:46:03   of other people who are paying us 10 bucks a month,

01:46:05   if there's some leakage here of shared accounts, who cares?

01:46:10   The money coming in is great and growing,

01:46:13   and the content, what we're paying for the content

01:46:15   is here, so we're, you know.

01:46:17   It seems like they've always had a good balance

01:46:22   on that front.

01:46:24   - Yeah, I agree, I agree.

01:46:25   last topic I can think of is you want to talk about Farhad Manchu's column this week in the

01:46:30   New York Times, which was The Death of Gadgets.

01:46:33   Pete: Yeah, I kind of like this piece because I realized, it seemed like, I'm trying to think

01:46:38   how many years ago, it's encouraging me. I think when Gizmodo said that they were going to sort of

01:46:43   change how they approached what they were doing with reporting and structure, was that like three

01:46:47   years ago now? I'm thinking. There was a point at which it seemed like Gadgets started to go away.

01:46:53   Like the obsessive focus on gadgets, there was something Gizmodo was the first and then there was Engadget, then there was Gadgets,

01:46:59   and then there were, you know, a thousand thousand blogs that were devoted to obsessive coverage with as much leaked information and

01:47:06   unboxing and everything as possible of every little doodad that came out. And I'll tell you like even on my now dead,

01:47:11   I mean still archive, Wi-Fi networking news site, one of the most popular things I ever posted there

01:47:16   was a tiny, it was a post, a tiny video about this thing called Canary

01:47:21   something, and it was like a tiny standalone device that would show you what Wi-Fi networks

01:47:25   were around you. It was like a handheld Wi-Fi detector, and it would list off the networks

01:47:29   on an LED display, or an LCD display. And people, I mean, that still gets traffic, which

01:47:34   is weird to me now, but people were obsessed with gadgets for the longest time, and it

01:47:41   really did, you know, it was a proven way to get traffic, and it was a proven way to

01:47:46   proven way to get advertising, the whole ecosystem worked, and some of these sites became super

01:47:51   highly trafficked. And then I felt like it shifted, I felt like people were less obsessed

01:47:56   with it. And I was like, well, what really happened? Do people have enough gadgets? Like,

01:48:00   as that run out, are we replacing single-purpose things with multi-purpose things? And it slowly

01:48:06   kind of ebbed away. And I think, I feel like Farhad put a really good cap on it. The gadget

01:48:10   apocalypse is upon us, is his head, right? And it starts out, "Remember gadgets." And

01:48:15   I thought, you know, this is a good concept.

01:48:17   He's like, we had decades in which,

01:48:19   like, there were transistor radios.

01:48:21   Oh, do you remember, the big thing to me was,

01:48:23   do you remember the flip, how quickly the flip died?

01:48:26   It was this giant thing, right?

01:48:27   And then everyone, I'd never heard of it.

01:48:29   Suddenly everyone has one.

01:48:31   Suddenly they flame out.

01:48:32   It was incredible.

01:48:33   - Well, here's what I don't,

01:48:35   I think that part of this is that the smartphone

01:48:39   is the Uber gadget, right?

01:48:43   And, you know, for example,

01:48:44   That's exactly what happened to flip is it got killed by,

01:48:47   it got killed by the phone.

01:48:50   And I think a lot of other things have too.

01:48:52   Transistor radio, I mean, it's everything, right?

01:48:54   It's our camera, it's our Walkman, it's our iPod,

01:48:56   it's our newspaper, it's, you know.

01:49:00   - HD radio, satellite radio.

01:49:02   I mean, satellite radio I think is doing okay.

01:49:03   I mean, it's not small, but it's not as,

01:49:05   I think it had a bigger arc.

01:49:06   - Yeah, but you can get,

01:49:07   my wife listens to XM on her iPhone.

01:49:09   - Right, it was just smart for, you know, smart for them.

01:49:11   You know how much the satellites cost to launch,

01:49:13   made a failure with some of their satellites

01:49:14   with a Boeing issue.

01:49:15   I mean, satellites are not a great way to run a business.

01:49:19   But like Pebble, this was precipitated by Pebble

01:49:21   getting bought by Fitbit and then saying,

01:49:24   well, we don't know how long,

01:49:26   we're not gonna make or ship any more watches.

01:49:28   - Yeah, they didn't really,

01:49:29   it's not like they sold it as a platform.

01:49:31   It's more or less an aqua hire

01:49:33   where Fitbit bought their engineering and whatever.

01:49:38   - It had no future between smart watches

01:49:42   major vendors like Apple and iPhones and smartphones that have more capabilities,

01:49:48   like what's going to happen with Fitbit, what's going to happen with, you know,

01:49:52   then Nest. There's a lot of discussion about what happens to Nest. Does it have a future exactly?

01:49:59   You see, there's a story, I had missed this and I felt sort of terrible. 3D Robotics was founded

01:50:06   by a drone company, personal drone company founded by Chris Anderson and a partner. And Chris used

01:50:11   to be the editor-in-chief of Wire. And a few years ago he left Wire to take over full-time.

01:50:15   They raised $100 million in venture. They tried to produce a super premium drone that

01:50:22   would be like a—they kind of moved from kits and other stuff to a super premium drone.

01:50:26   They had a lot of problems in production. By the time they got to kind of a point where

01:50:29   things were okay, China had basically caught up. Like, cheap production in China had overtaken

01:50:36   their ability to make something that was competitively priced. And that's part of the story.

01:50:41   So, that is part of the issue is anything you can make, like, you look at Nest, you're like,

01:50:45   "Well, I could pay $200," I think it's still for the first unit. You can get IP cameras that don't

01:50:50   have the same cloud functionality or different and have horrible security problems, but they cost

01:50:54   like 30 bucks, you know, and they're slightly worse. It's the not quite good enough but not so

01:51:00   horrible that people just completely abandon it kind of thing. And that's, you know, we've got,

01:51:06   got the far-hard list off a bunch of stuff, but it's a good tie together, like MakerBot,

01:51:11   not really getting to the level that, and it's sort of sad because gadgets kind of drove

01:51:17   the entire electronics and technology industry. We've always loved them. But yeah, you know,

01:51:22   we saw this happen with snapshot cameras. Snapshot digital cameras are not dead as category,

01:51:28   but they might as well be. And even DLSRs have been eaten away. It's not necessarily

01:51:33   So you don't choose between a $5,000 DLSR and a smartphone,

01:51:38   but mirrorless cameras, which are much less expensive,

01:51:41   or can be much less expensive.

01:51:42   I think I've eaten away there too.

01:51:43   - I think another thing with cameras is,

01:51:45   in addition to being eaten by the phone

01:51:47   at the consumer end, at the high end,

01:51:49   they've also reached a point where the rapid increases

01:51:52   in the digital quality have slowed,

01:51:54   where you're, it's more like the film days, right?

01:51:58   Like in the film era, you could get,

01:52:01   You could be like a serious, even a professional photographer

01:52:04   and not buy new equipment for long stretches of time, right?

01:52:08   You'd, until they break, 'cause number one,

01:52:10   the high-end stuff is usually built to last,

01:52:12   really great build quality.

01:52:13   And the technology stopped changing.

01:52:15   It was the same 35 millimeter film.

01:52:17   A good lens was a good lens, you know.

01:52:20   And I think the digital has sort of gotten to that point too

01:52:23   where even the pros don't need to buy cameras as frequently

01:52:25   because they're not getting as much bang for the buck

01:52:28   by upgrading after two or three years.

01:52:31   You can't, I mean, the megapixel myth is a megapixel myth, right?

01:52:35   There's a point at which, beyond which a better sensor, a bigger, better sensor doesn't

01:52:40   buy you enough more to be worth upgrading, even if it is better.

01:52:43   That's where Lightro was trying to introduce computational photography as a gimmick.

01:52:47   There's a camera called the Light L16 that hasn't shipped yet that has 16 lenses on

01:52:52   it and will let you create like this 52 megapixel image with a tiny format camera using computational

01:52:59   photography.

01:53:00   curious approach is not going to be a mass market thing but it's very

01:53:03   interesting you know so but that's I think that's the truth with everything

01:53:06   a GoPro just stumbled they try to expand a different market and GoPro is

01:53:10   just the new flip I've been saying this for it feels like but they had a great I

01:53:13   mean they had a great run I hope people made money because they had a great run

01:53:16   they had a niche product and you know so I don't know I'm a little sad because I

01:53:21   grew up with gadgets and I feel like I wasn't like a gadget you know maybe and

01:53:26   I never really got into the gadget blogging side of things I do review

01:53:29   products and things like that. But he was also pointing out the Kindle, the Echo,

01:53:34   like these kinds of—the Echo is a gadget killer at some level because you don't need other stuff.

01:53:38   Yeah, but it is a gadget.

01:53:40   See, that's why I—

01:53:40   It is a gadget, but it's one monolithic gadget from one giant company.

01:53:44   Right. That's sort of—that and that is sort of the smartphone as the gadget killer is that

01:53:49   the computers have gotten so good that meta-gadgets are killing—

01:53:55   Yes, that's it.

01:53:55   You know, like a handful of really good smart computers, like an Echo and a Mac and an iPhone,

01:54:03   and all of a sudden, they combined obviate an entire drawer full of gadgets.

01:54:08   Right, like what else do you need? You don't need a music player, you don't need a camera,

01:54:10   you don't need a snapshot GoPro-style camera.

01:54:12   You don't need a voice recorder, you know.

01:54:14   Yeah, right, you get a case for your camera is now your GoPro, right? Like, I've seen a lot of that.

01:54:21   And, you know, I was testing some add-on lenses for iPhone 6s's that'll work with a different

01:54:25   case with the iPhone 7. iPhone 7 Plus is just ridiculously good, too. Like, the two lens—

01:54:32   Pete: It really is.

01:54:33   Pete: Do you have one still? I forgot.

01:54:34   Pete; I still have, I have my review unit here.

01:54:36   Pete; I just took pictures in the dark outdoor snow. It's night, it's cloudy, I'm in Seattle.

01:54:44   Pete; Right.

01:54:45   Pete; And I took pictures that I think are absolutely beautiful with the 1x lens. I'm like,

01:54:51   Like, I'm like, I can't get a, you know, I'd have to, I pulled out my, I have a mirrorless

01:54:54   camera with a, you know, it's like a, when I bought it, it was like a thousand dollar

01:54:57   system.

01:54:58   I have a pancake lens for it that's an affordable pancake.

01:55:00   I went out and took some pictures with that, and you know, the difference is not in that

01:55:04   kind of lighting.

01:55:05   I, in the, the mirrorless I have, I can push it to, oh, 25,600 ASA, where it's super

01:55:11   grainy.

01:55:12   So I have to bump it down.

01:55:13   The quality of the image from the iPhone 7 Plus and the thousand dollar mirrorless, I'm

01:55:18   like, uh, you know, the mirrorless has other attributes that are great, but for that kind

01:55:22   of shot, I'm like, I don't think it's not really.

01:55:24   So I don't think it's the death of gadgets, but I think it's the death of the drawer full

01:55:29   of gadgets.

01:55:30   Right.

01:55:31   So yeah, that's a good point.

01:55:32   That's a good, it is a good column.

01:55:33   I'll put a link in the notes.

01:55:34   His point too, is I think that like Amazon, Google, Apple, and a handful of other companies

01:55:38   essentially now dominate.

01:55:40   So this place for innovative startup, interesting niche things is not dead, but like at the

01:55:45   moment, what those are going to be, I think, seems pretty thin.

01:55:49   Yeah, I think it's true too. I've long thought this about, and Pebble's a perfect example, where

01:55:55   the small team, or maybe even the one-person show, can still make an enormous effect with software,

01:56:05   but with hardware, at least electronic hardware, no. And I really think that Pebble,

01:56:12   Their first one was good enough to be their first one,

01:56:16   but their improvements, their subsequent improvements

01:56:19   were way too little, too late, at way too slow a pace.

01:56:23   They needed much better screens and much better everything,

01:56:27   much quicker.

01:56:28   And I think, I don't even know that it was a failure.

01:56:30   I think, you know, in terms of,

01:56:32   I don't know that a team that small could have done better.

01:56:34   Like you'd almost have to be Apple's or Amazon's

01:56:37   or Google's size to do stuff like that.

01:56:39   - I think you're right.

01:56:40   Pebble hit us point when the thing it did best, I think you said, was notifications.

01:56:44   That's what I heard from a lot of people. But it couldn't integrate well enough with

01:56:48   everything and that didn't change because iOS didn't change.

01:56:52   And my personal take on their notifications, the thing that killed it for me, above and

01:56:55   beyond the display, was that I found their vibrating engine for the notifications to

01:57:00   be physically unpleasant.

01:57:02   Oh my gosh.

01:57:03   And obviously other people disagree because I have friends, like Jason Snell and my friend

01:57:08   Paul Kofasas, who wore their Pebble watches, or maybe even still wear them, I don't know,

01:57:11   but wore them for a long time. But I found it to be unpleasant. It was way too much of

01:57:15   a... It just wasn't a very pleasing haptic feedback. And it was the best feature the

01:57:20   watch had. And so it made me dread taking advantage of the best... I didn't want any

01:57:25   notifications because I found it to be unpleasant. So...

01:57:28   No.

01:57:29   I don't know. Anyway. I have got to go... We got to wrap it up. This just hit the two

01:57:36   hour mark. So that's a great show. Glenn F. G-L-E-N-N, two N's, you get the second N for

01:57:44   free. Glenn F. on Twitter. Where else can people find your work?

01:57:49   I write a lot at Macworld. Some days, the poor folks at Macworld, some days because

01:57:54   of all the help questions I write and all that, you may see too much of me at macworld.com.

01:58:00   And I think that's probably the best places right now to find me. I'd point out to, by

01:58:05   way, we didn't cover this very briefly, I do have a story up today. If you have an Apple

01:58:09   Cinema Display with DisplayPort, not an Apple Thunderbolt display, looks like there may

01:58:13   be some solutions coming. One person found this amazing three-cable solution to use with

01:58:19   a MacBook Pro. It's like an adapter, a cable, and an inline coupler, and it works! Then

01:58:25   it costs like 30 bucks, but there are some adapters coming. I know tons of people keep

01:58:29   asking about that. There's a column up at Macworld about it, and if you have one of

01:58:33   those displays and your USB-C Thunderbolt 3 concern is real, then look for that.

01:58:37   With that, it's a show. Thank you, Glenn. Thank you so much.