The Talk Show

173: ‘Fork the Universe’ With Jason Snell


00:00:00   You know, I can't believe I missed the holiday party again.

00:00:03   [laughter]

00:00:04   It was a different kind of holiday party.

00:00:07   Anything interesting happen in the last few weeks?

00:00:10   Nope. It's quiet. Peaceful.

00:00:13   Without a tumbleweed roll-by.

00:00:15   You know. Not much.

00:00:17   Apple doesn't really do much in the fall.

00:00:20   [sigh]

00:00:23   [sigh]

00:00:25   [sigh]

00:00:27   [laughter]

00:00:29   You have to laugh a little.

00:00:32   I was talking to my wife the other day about, we were on a walk, and I said, "You know,

00:00:37   I feel like it's been going nonstop for a long time."

00:00:40   And then I realized it totally had been going nonstop for a long time.

00:00:43   We went to Ireland for Ool, and I realized, literally, I went to the Apple event, and

00:00:50   the next day I got on a plane and went to this event in Southern California, this festival

00:00:55   over the weekend, and then from there I went basically straight to Ool.

00:00:58   And in the middle there, I got the one review unit

00:01:01   of the MacBook Pro, and then the day after I came back

00:01:05   from Ireland, I got the Touch Bar review unit

00:01:08   with the MacBook Pro, and it is nonstop.

00:01:11   It's just like one thing after another, all fall.

00:01:14   - You know what I mean, and it's, you know,

00:01:16   tough life for us, you know what I mean, reviewing--

00:01:20   - Yeah, no, it's good. - Amazing new computers

00:01:22   before anybody gets them while jetting around the globe

00:01:25   to meet interesting people, but it has been hectic.

00:01:29   - Yeah, I mean, I'm not complaining.

00:01:32   It is a privilege to do this, but this is the high season.

00:01:35   I mean, that's the way I keep telling people

00:01:37   it's high season.

00:01:38   This is when everything is happening for Apple.

00:01:40   It's like this time period and like WWDC

00:01:43   are the two craziest times of the year.

00:01:44   - I think this is crazier, honestly, for us.

00:01:48   'Cause just, I don't know, somehow to me,

00:01:52   even that several weeks long period between the iPhone 7 coming out and the

00:01:58   MacBook event, I don't know. That somehow seemed jam-packed with stuff too.

00:02:03   Yeah, rules in Apple Watch, you know, two rules in there.

00:02:08   And yeah, I mean, there's a lot going on. A lot of stuff going on.

00:02:13   Anyway, long story short, just wasn't a good time for an election that I had a,

00:02:17   like 110% obsessive interest into.

00:02:21   No.

00:02:24   So yeah, there's stuff, lots of stuff going on. It was a, it was a busy fall. I do feel like we've

00:02:28   reached, you know, it's all subsiding a little bit now. And I feel like that mentally I'm starting to

00:02:34   shift gears. I still got some stuff that I put off that I need to pick back up again, but it's like

00:02:37   mentally shifting gears into, you know, holidays, end of year people, you know, if you want to make

00:02:43   holiday stories and gift guides and best of the year lists and stuff like that. It's

00:02:49   starting to feel more like that at last. Which is good because it's like Thanksgiving

00:02:53   next week. So, I mean, here it is.

00:02:55   It was a little... The MacBook Pro review... I got all... I got three of them. I got

00:03:02   the button one. What are they called? We're calling it the MacBook

00:03:06   Escape.

00:03:07   I guess we are. Makes me think of a Journey album, but, you know, whatever.

00:03:11   I know I got that the same time you did.

00:03:12   We got that the day of the event.

00:03:14   Yeah, they had those.

00:03:17   I got the 13-inch with the Touch Bar, I don't know,

00:03:20   a week later, about at least a week later.

00:03:22   I don't know if it was six days or eight days.

00:03:24   It was the week I was in Ireland, which

00:03:26   was the week after the event, because I got an email from

00:03:27   Apple on a Wednesday in Ireland saying,

00:03:29   can you come buy Cupertino on Thursday

00:03:31   to pick up your 13-inch MacBook with Touch Bar?

00:03:34   And I was like, uh, no.

00:03:37   And so I didn't get that one.

00:03:39   And then I got the 15-inch, I don't know.

00:03:41   But that was late.

00:03:42   The 15-inch was really only just a few days

00:03:45   before the embargo deadline.

00:03:47   So I opened it, and I turned it on and looked at it.

00:03:50   But I spent much less time with the 15-inch,

00:03:53   simply because I already had the 13-inch with the touch bar set up

00:03:57   with my stuff.

00:03:59   I've got BB Edit on it.

00:04:00   It's just there.

00:04:04   And the thing I do to wrap block quotes,

00:04:07   So they all look like nice markdown block quotes

00:04:09   that's already there.

00:04:10   - Right, and again, not that we're complaining

00:04:12   about getting review units,

00:04:13   but onboarding to a new Mac is a lot of work.

00:04:16   And when you have to do it three times in three weeks,

00:04:18   it's like, oh, here we go again.

00:04:21   Like what files, what do I install?

00:04:23   Can I migrate?

00:04:23   No, I don't really want to migrate,

00:04:25   but then I have to install everything.

00:04:26   I have to hook it up with Dropbox.

00:04:29   And I don't know about you,

00:04:31   I also have to juggle,

00:04:33   like there are these hard breaks

00:04:35   like five authorized iTunes computers and like 10 authorized Apple music devices.

00:04:40   And so I'm always juggling like logging out of different iPads and phones and stuff in

00:04:45   order to get slots back to put other computers in there.

00:04:49   And it's a yeah, so it's again, not complaining.

00:04:51   It's great that we get to do this for our job.

00:04:53   But you know, like that all of this stuff is not meant to be done as frequently as we

00:04:57   do them.

00:04:58   So yeah.

00:04:59   - Yeah.

00:05:00   - What I, I mean even little things.

00:05:01   I've run into a little thing where

00:05:03   my Amex card has a maximum limit on how many

00:05:08   Apple Pay devices it can be hooked up to.

00:05:10   - Oh. (laughs)

00:05:11   - And-- - Oh yeah.

00:05:13   - And you know, and it's, it's magnified

00:05:16   because it's like two, now you get two phones

00:05:18   when they give you review phones,

00:05:19   they give you one of each size,

00:05:20   and it's like, I got iPads and stuff,

00:05:23   and it's like, I don't even know, you know,

00:05:25   and some of them I've foolishly left named John's iPad.

00:05:29   So it's like, right?

00:05:31   It's like, what, which one is it?

00:05:34   I don't know.

00:05:35   I mean, what?

00:05:36   And I just started-

00:05:37   - And occasionally, there are updates that reset the name.

00:05:39   So I realized the other day

00:05:41   that my iPad is called iPad again.

00:05:42   And it's like, well, I don't know when that happened,

00:05:44   but it's like, no wonder I went on my device list

00:05:47   and I saw three things named iPad

00:05:49   and had no idea which was which.

00:05:51   It's, yeah.

00:05:52   It's, I haven't been able to do Apple Pay.

00:05:55   I've been testing the Apple Watch too.

00:05:56   And I actually haven't written about that yet,

00:05:58   but it can't do Apple Pay because it's just,

00:06:00   I think my financial institutions have given up on me

00:06:04   and they're like, no, mm-mm, no more devices for you.

00:06:06   Every time I try to pair it, it's just like,

00:06:07   I can't even forget it, you know?

00:06:10   - Oh, and my bank, sometimes what I've done is,

00:06:13   I generally, if I use a charge card,

00:06:15   I use my Amex, I just use it everywhere.

00:06:18   And the only times I ever don't use it

00:06:20   is if I'm in a place that doesn't take Amex.

00:06:22   But to get around this Amex limit,

00:06:26   If I have a device that I'm testing from Apple that I don't really want to spend--

00:06:32   I know I'm not going to spend a ton of time on.

00:06:35   For example, at WWDC, they gave me an Apple Watch with the beta of watchOS 3.

00:06:42   Wow.

00:06:43   Which I think that's when they gave it to me.

00:06:46   I don't know.

00:06:47   But at some point, they gave it to me.

00:06:48   It wasn't new hardware.

00:06:49   It was just, here, you could try this thing out with the watchOS 3.

00:06:52   And I thought, well, that's interesting.

00:06:53   but it's like, I'll just put the watchos 3 beta on my own Apple watch, you know what I mean?

00:06:57   And so I didn't want to put this Amex limit on it, so I used my other card.

00:07:02   My bank sends me a letter in the mail every time I set up Apple Pay that it's like, "Congratulations."

00:07:08   It's so totally written from the perspective of like, you're going to have one device that you do this with,

00:07:14   and we'll tell you everything, how it works, and I just keep...

00:07:17   I should have kept all the letters, because I'll bet I've got 15 of them by now.

00:07:22   I think the advantage of this is it's so easy in so many different ways that you do,

00:07:28   you review tech products, to lose perspective if you're not careful. And this is like

00:07:34   the reverse of that, which is there's nobody, I think, more aware of the pain of basically

00:07:42   upgrading to a new device than reviewers, because we have to do it like with every device.

00:07:48   Like for a while there, I could tell you everything you need to do to migrate from a MacBook to

00:07:53   another MacBook or from a PowerBook to another PowerBook because I was reviewing all the

00:07:58   laptops at Macworld.

00:08:00   And so like I would go through, I would migrate everything a couple times a year.

00:08:06   And so, I mean, that's good because we get to experience that.

00:08:08   And I think Apple's got some issues with the migration assistant on the Mac and with some

00:08:13   of the stuff they're getting better, but like, you know, they've got some issues there.

00:08:16   And those really come out when you're migrating multiple times a year.

00:08:20   Because regular people only might do it once a year for a phone and once every several

00:08:23   years for an iPad or a Mac.

00:08:25   I have spoken—I still think it's too hard on a Mac.

00:08:30   And I think part of it is because I don't—I think part of it really is a technical challenge

00:08:36   and not just a disinterest.

00:08:37   I think because you can—you still have so much freedom of what to put where in the file

00:08:44   system on a Mac, and it's, you know, really, it's just technically not, it's not, you can't

00:08:51   just say clone the disk and open it, you know, it's because there's all sorts of stuff that's

00:08:55   a different because it's different hardware.

00:08:57   You know, I think it's the number one motivator why they do, why they did desktop and documents

00:09:01   syncing the way they did it, was that that was sort of like their, if you keep everything,

00:09:06   if you buy everything through the App Store, which, you know, some people do, and you're

00:09:11   not a superpower user, but you keep everything in documents and on the desktop, and then

00:09:15   you log into a new Mac. Like, it'll just sync your stuff and you're ready to go. It's for

00:09:21   the rest of us who've got, you know, legacy apps, non-Mac App Store apps, all sorts of

00:09:26   stuff like that, and then you turn to Migration Assistant. I'm not convinced Migration Assistant

00:09:31   is doing so hot. I've tried it twice with these two MacBook Pros that I've got, and

00:09:37   it failed both times.

00:09:38   - You know what's interesting?

00:09:39   I've given up on migration assistant, to be honest.

00:09:41   I haven't used it in a few years.

00:09:43   I mean, and maybe I should give it another shot,

00:09:46   one of these, although what you just said,

00:09:47   it's really not. - I don't think you should.

00:09:49   - What I've got-- - I don't recommend it.

00:09:51   - What I have is an Apple Notes document.

00:09:55   I started this two or three years ago,

00:09:57   setting up a new Mac.

00:09:58   And so it's, the first thing I do is I go through

00:10:02   the first run, I put my iCloud,

00:10:04   I go through and put my iCloud credentials in.

00:10:07   So because I put my iCloud credentials in, my note sinks.

00:10:10   And then the note has a checklist of, you know,

00:10:14   do this, do this, do this.

00:10:16   It's, you know, and some of it-

00:10:18   - It's like an onboarding script for yourself.

00:10:20   - Yeah, more or less.

00:10:21   And then some of the stuff I'll just skip.

00:10:22   - Like a pre-flight checklist, right?

00:10:23   Like do this, then do this, then do this,

00:10:25   and I'm like, all right, got it.

00:10:25   So you don't miss a step.

00:10:27   You know, it kills me, BB Edit will sync all of its,

00:10:30   let's nerd out.

00:10:33   It's you and me.

00:10:34   We talked about baseball, we'll talk about BB Edit.

00:10:36   BBEdit will let you put all of its support stuff in Dropbox, which is great, and I use

00:10:42   that, but its preferences file does not go in Dropbox, and so every time I move to a

00:10:47   new Mac, I either have to manually reset all of the preferences, or I have to go to a home

00:10:54   folder, library application support, no, library preferences, com.barebones, BBEdit preferences,

00:11:01   and copy that file over so that my editor

00:11:04   is the way I like it.

00:11:05   And I do that every single time I move Macs.

00:11:07   It's like one of those things on the checklist

00:11:09   is I gotta move my BBEdit preferences

00:11:11   'cause they don't cloud sync.

00:11:13   I can't fish them out of Dropbox.

00:11:14   - Yeah, I've been meaning for,

00:11:15   I've used that ever since BBEdit added that feature.

00:11:18   I mean, it's a couple of years ago at least.

00:11:20   And at first I really liked it,

00:11:22   but it's grown to annoy me

00:11:24   because I end up with like the same documents open

00:11:27   'cause I also have the preference set

00:11:29   to restore open documents.

00:11:31   and almost everything I write in BB Edit

00:11:34   is stored in Dropbox.

00:11:36   So when I go to a different machine

00:11:39   and use BB Edit there, Dropbox has the same document.

00:11:43   And so it's open in two.

00:11:44   And I have found that I don't want that

00:11:48   because I leave too many documents open.

00:11:52   - Yeah, and oftentimes I'll leave one place

00:11:55   and finish in the other, and then I go back

00:11:57   and it's like, oh, I don't want that.

00:11:58   It's opening documents that I'm done with

00:12:00   because it lost state, because I'm not keeping them open

00:12:03   and in sync myself.

00:12:05   And I agree, I've noticed that.

00:12:07   But I like the fact that all my scripts and clippings

00:12:10   and things like that are just sort of there everywhere.

00:12:12   That's nice.

00:12:13   - I do too, and I know it's gonna annoy me

00:12:16   to go back to the old way, where if I write a new script,

00:12:19   or just one of my scripts, just tweak one of my scripts,

00:12:22   that to get that script to percolate everywhere,

00:12:25   I'd have to do it manually.

00:12:30   you know, zip up the, I don't know. Maybe what I should do is just turn off the preference

00:12:35   to reopen documents and see. I don't know. I've had a—but it's a mild annoyance that

00:12:39   I've had. I've been thinking for like a year I should like dig into this and redo it, but

00:12:43   I don't.

00:12:44   I know there's so many things that we do with our computers that are like, it's annoying,

00:12:49   but it doesn't—you gotta clear the bar of, "I'm gonna sit down for an hour and figure

00:12:53   out what the hell is going on," and so that you're just like, "Nah, I'm not gonna leave

00:12:56   and probably do you have more than an hour of misery?

00:13:00   Maybe, maybe not, but it's just enough.

00:13:03   I do that all the time with like automation stuff

00:13:05   where automation's great,

00:13:06   but you gotta clear the time to like do it.

00:13:10   And then once you do it, you're like, yay,

00:13:11   I've got this automation thing.

00:13:13   But so often it's just like, eh, I'm not gonna bother.

00:13:16   It's close enough and it's not enough annoyance

00:13:19   for me to break out an hour to try and figure it out.

00:13:22   So you just leave it.

00:13:23   - I actually, you know, it's funny you would say that.

00:13:24   I actually did a couple of those things last week as a sort of get my mind off of other

00:13:32   things, you know, get my mind off the internet.

00:13:35   And I found it very difficult to write, honestly.

00:13:41   I'll tell you what, I read a thing—let's just keep going meta here, and I know Merlin

00:13:47   and I talked about this last week extensively, you know, blah blah blah, the election and

00:13:52   and hard feelings.

00:13:53   But I saw a couple of other people with sight.

00:13:55   Steven Levy had a good thing on his back channel.

00:13:59   He had, I think it was just a day after the election.

00:14:00   But half of me says I should just charge ahead

00:14:05   and write some typically daring fireball topic stuff

00:14:10   because other people who read Daring Fireball, I'm sure,

00:14:14   would more than even usual love to have their mind

00:14:16   occupied by this, to get it off thoughts of the election.

00:14:22   and President Donald Trump.

00:14:25   But then there's another half of me that says,

00:14:27   that is, it's so, it's inappropriate, right?

00:14:32   That something this, you know, of its seismic level happens.

00:14:38   It's just foolish to write something that is so off topic.

00:14:45   And so I found myself unusually jammed last week

00:14:50   in terms of actually getting anything written.

00:14:52   So what I did is I occupied myself

00:14:54   by doing a couple like AppleScript things

00:14:56   that I'd been meaning to write for myself.

00:14:58   And it really, it helped.

00:15:00   It's the sort of thing where once I start

00:15:01   like writing an AppleScript and I'm,

00:15:03   'cause half of it for me always with AppleScript is,

00:15:08   what the hell is the syntax for blank?

00:15:10   I find myself like an hour can go by

00:15:14   and I haven't had any thoughts of the election

00:15:17   and it's like the best hour of my day was writing.

00:15:19   What is it here?

00:15:21   I've got it, just opened it.

00:15:22   It's a Apple script that creates a new text file

00:15:25   at the current, right in the current finder window.

00:15:28   - That's nice.

00:15:30   I mean, I've, it's funny that we're talking about this

00:15:34   'cause as we record this,

00:15:36   I think that the news kind of broke today

00:15:38   that Sal Segoian, who was the automation

00:15:42   in Apple script product manager at Apple for years,

00:15:44   is no longer employed by Apple.

00:15:47   - I did not know that.

00:15:48   - Oh yeah, yeah, he just mentioned that he did a presentation

00:15:52   at the Mac Tech Conference today.

00:15:54   I have to say I'm sad, but I'm not really surprised

00:15:58   'cause I'm not sure Apple's eye has been

00:15:59   on that particular ball for a long time,

00:16:01   but you know, and it's not for everybody.

00:16:03   And when I talk, people know that I do automation stuff

00:16:06   and they're like, "Oh, you know, it's hard to get into."

00:16:09   And that's all true, but then, you know, every,

00:16:13   And again, I do leave things for a long time, and sometimes, and it's like, oh, well, you

00:16:16   know, I should automate that.

00:16:18   But every time I do one of those, I finally put in that work.

00:16:21   Not only is it kind of a pleasure to solve the problem, and I think to myself, this must

00:16:24   be what computer programmers feel all the time, but, you know, once it's done, I can

00:16:31   hand it to other people sometimes if they want it.

00:16:33   I've done that a little bit.

00:16:34   And, you know, things get passed around, and it can make, it just can make your life better.

00:16:38   I have a bunch of things now that are,

00:16:41   they're not even Apple scripts,

00:16:43   they're shell scripts that run inside a service.

00:16:48   So basically, you basically make an automator thing

00:16:52   that says, do the shell scripts.

00:16:54   And then you wire that to--

00:16:56   - Take the current selection as input

00:16:58   and pass it to the script.

00:16:59   - Yeah, and so I do that for like,

00:17:01   I've got all these scripts that either I'm clicking on

00:17:05   something in the finder and doing a keyboard shortcut

00:17:08   or I'm choosing it from the contextual menu

00:17:11   to do all sorts of like audio processing

00:17:14   and stuff for podcasts.

00:17:15   And I just do it in,

00:17:16   it's all scripts running in the background.

00:17:18   And I got a lot of these scripts from Marco Arment

00:17:20   who is very comfortable with the command line

00:17:22   and just issues all this things from the command line.

00:17:24   I'm like, I'm not gonna do that.

00:17:25   I'm gonna put it in a little,

00:17:27   I'm gonna wrap it in an automator

00:17:28   and just hit a keyboard shortcut and do it.

00:17:30   And it's great.

00:17:31   And every time I do one of those things,

00:17:32   I think to myself, I can't believe I went months

00:17:35   where I was bringing up the terminal

00:17:37   and dragging in folders to get the path names

00:17:39   and then issuing the shell scripting commands

00:17:42   and all of that.

00:17:43   Now all I do is point and click.

00:17:44   I mean, that's the great thing about Mac automation stuff

00:17:47   and iOS too really is once it's done,

00:17:50   it's out of the way, all you do is go boop

00:17:52   and magic things happen.

00:17:53   And that's the abstracted computer user interface

00:17:58   in a nutshell right there

00:17:59   is you shouldn't know what the steps are.

00:18:01   You should be able to build the steps

00:18:02   and then put it aside and just keep doing your work.

00:18:05   - Yeah, and some of the utilities that are along those lines

00:18:09   like TextExpander and Keyboard Maestro,

00:18:12   I think Keyboard Maestro does this.

00:18:13   I'm almost certain TextExpander does this.

00:18:15   There's a way if you go to the About box or something,

00:18:17   it shows you how much time you've saved

00:18:19   since you've been using it.

00:18:21   And if you've been using,

00:18:22   I've got some of these utilities where I somehow,

00:18:24   it's like I look and it tells me I've saved

00:18:27   like 10 hours of time over so many years.

00:18:31   But that's like at each little step.

00:18:34   One of them for me, I've published this somewhere,

00:18:36   I don't know, I think it's on Gist or something like that,

00:18:39   I've written about it on Daring Fireball,

00:18:40   but I have a very particular style of title casing

00:18:43   I use on Daring Fireball.

00:18:44   Where there's, every big word gets an uppercase letter

00:18:50   and then there's a specific set of little words

00:18:52   that are not, like of, a, an.

00:18:55   And it can be tricky though to do it, to automate it,

00:19:02   because you can be fooled by things like quotes

00:19:05   in the text that's being selected

00:19:10   because then the should be capitalized

00:19:13   if it's the first word in the quote

00:19:14   because it's like the title of the thing.

00:19:16   So I've hacked together a script years ago

00:19:18   that gets it right 99.9% of the time.

00:19:22   And I have it exactly like you said,

00:19:24   it's an automator script or a service

00:19:28   with that shell script running in it.

00:19:30   and I have it mapped to shift command T for title case.

00:19:34   And there are some, I think about how much time

00:19:37   that has saved me over the years.

00:19:39   And it's just unbelievable.

00:19:41   And, but before I wrote it,

00:19:42   even though I've been using it for years,

00:19:43   I think, well, all those years,

00:19:44   I was like arrow, arrow, arrow, shift,

00:19:46   retype the letter, arrow, arrow.

00:19:49   It's crazy.

00:19:50   - Yeah, it's, well, I mean, that's,

00:19:53   KeyboardMeister tells me I've saved seven hours,

00:19:55   by the way, I just looked.

00:19:57   It goes back to regular expressions, right?

00:20:01   Did you write the chapter in the BB Edit manual

00:20:03   about regular expressions?

00:20:04   Was that you?

00:20:05   - No, no, but the second half of it is.

00:20:09   So I think this is fair to say,

00:20:11   I don't wanna take too much credit.

00:20:13   The regular expression chapter in BB Edit

00:20:15   was there when I started.

00:20:17   But BB Edit was using

00:20:19   a very old regular expression library.

00:20:22   It was really a derivative of the original Unix one.

00:20:26   a guy named Henry, somebody wrote it.

00:20:30   And it only had the basic regular expression syntax.

00:20:34   It was almost more like glorified wildcards.

00:20:38   And all the fancy stuff that you can do

00:20:42   when you read that chapter and you're like, holy crap,

00:20:45   was added when I was there.

00:20:47   And so I wrote the, you know,

00:20:49   they added onto the chapter to write all the--

00:20:51   - So all the PCRE stuff. - Yes.

00:20:54   - All right.

00:20:55   Yeah, that's, anyway, that's, I tell people about grep, about regular expressions, and

00:21:00   they have that same look as when I talk about Automator or if you talk about shell scripting,

00:21:03   which is like, I don't want to learn it, I don't understand it, I don't know, and it's

00:21:06   like, I get that.

00:21:07   But like, especially when I would talk to writers and editors about grep, I'd be like,

00:21:13   you don't understand.

00:21:14   Text is what you do for a living.

00:21:16   I am telling you, if you buy, like, buy Jeff Friedl's book, you know, or read the BB Edit

00:21:21   chapter. There are things in there that, you know, if you learn it, all of a sudden you'll

00:21:27   be sitting there thinking, "Oh man, I can't believe I need to do this. This is going to

00:21:30   take me an hour." And if you know the language of grep, if you know those symbols, you can

00:21:35   do it in two minutes. And it only needs to happen once, and you realize that it is a

00:21:43   life skill that you need to have.

00:21:45   I'll tell you the truth. This is a true story. I didn't learn regular expressions

00:21:50   while I was in college, even though I was a BB Edit nerd, comp sci major. I mean, I

00:21:56   think the furthest I ever got was like dot plus and dot star, which is, you know, just

00:22:01   more or less like old DOS wildcards. And I just never saw the need for it. And like a year or so

00:22:10   after college, I got a temp job at the Philadelphia Inquirer in the advertising department,

00:22:19   where they had a bunch of Excel spreadsheets with all of the ad rates for everything.

00:22:24   Each department had their own thing, and each one had like seven pages or 12 pages of ads in a matrix.

00:22:37   Keeping them in Excel as where the business people set them made total sense. Then there'd

00:22:42   be graphic designers who'd turn them into a book that they could send out to people.

00:22:47   So I got hired to do these books,

00:22:48   'cause I could do graphic design.

00:22:50   And so I did the first one,

00:22:51   and this is how everybody did it,

00:22:52   but there was all sorts of gibberish

00:22:56   in columns that wasn't public.

00:22:58   And it must have made sense for the business people

00:23:01   who'd use the Excel spreadsheet,

00:23:03   but it didn't need to go in there.

00:23:05   And so the way that it was done before,

00:23:08   and the way I did the first book,

00:23:10   was I just went in and edited each column by hand,

00:23:12   and it was just tab, delete, tab, delete.

00:23:15   and just pages and pages and pages and pages.

00:23:18   And a couple of days work easily, or maybe a week's work

00:23:21   for the whole book, mostly just deleting the crap.

00:23:26   And I thought, there's got to be a better way.

00:23:28   And I thought about it.

00:23:28   I thought, I think this is the sort of stuff

00:23:30   regular expressions are supposed to solve.

00:23:32   And so I just spent a day writing just a couple

00:23:36   of regular expressions in BB Edit.

00:23:38   And then so I went from Excel to text,

00:23:41   BB Edit to just run a couple of saved grep patterns,

00:23:46   imported it into the document, and I was done.

00:23:49   And I literally turned a week's work of work for each book

00:23:54   into about two hours.

00:23:57   And so I just--

00:23:59   but I acted as though I didn't write the script

00:24:01   and just sat there and browse the web.

00:24:04   That's actually-- going out of Excel,

00:24:09   that's like a pro tip for all this stuff too.

00:24:12   It's like, I can't tell you how many times

00:24:14   I've had something in Excel that's been a disaster

00:24:16   and I just select it and paste it into BB edit.

00:24:18   It comes in as tab delimited

00:24:20   and or you save it out as a tab delimited file

00:24:22   and you do all of the crazy tech stuff

00:24:24   and you just make sure that there are tabs

00:24:26   between the fields and you bring it back into Excel

00:24:28   and you're like, look, it was in Excel all along

00:24:31   but it wasn't, you know, you completely take it out.

00:24:34   You know, times where I've taken multiple columns in Excel

00:24:36   and I pulled them out and then kind of like mixed them

00:24:39   and match them and reassembled them in the right way,

00:24:42   and then you paste them back in.

00:24:44   And it's like, you know, it's like they never left Excel,

00:24:47   but they totally came out of Excel.

00:24:48   And it's not like you can't do some wildcard stuff

00:24:50   in Excel, but, and you probably can write

00:24:52   Visual Basic scripts that do things too.

00:24:54   But for me, it was just like, can I get this back to text?

00:24:56   And can I write a couple of pattern matching

00:25:00   search and replaces that solve this problem?

00:25:02   And usually the answer is, yeah,

00:25:04   and you can take an hour of work

00:25:05   and do it in 10 minutes, five minutes.

00:25:07   - I mean, it literally turned-

00:25:08   turn literally turn weeks weeks of work into hours of work and I just got paid for weeks of work

00:25:16   I felt like I deserved it um yeah I will just say this one last thing it was a long time ago

00:25:23   it must have been 2001 or so when I wrote that the the second half of the bbedit grep chapter

00:25:29   I would still say is one of the pieces of writing that I am most proud of in my entire life because

00:25:34   I've people have told me many times when they find out that I wrote it they're like oh my god that

00:25:38   That was the first time regular expressions

00:25:40   ever made sense to me.

00:25:41   And I can't take credit for the whole chapter.

00:25:43   But I did take a pass through the early part,

00:25:45   'cause that was my goal, is I do feel like

00:25:48   I have a knack for regular expressions.

00:25:50   It's the one area of programming

00:25:52   where I'm better than almost anybody.

00:25:54   I really am good at figuring out how to create the syntax

00:26:00   to match what I wanna match.

00:26:01   And it ends up creating these things

00:26:04   that most people look at and they're like,

00:26:05   "What the hell?"

00:26:07   - Yeah, I think that's the big problem

00:26:09   with regular expressions is readability.

00:26:12   Like, people see them and they think,

00:26:13   it's nonsense, I can't do it.

00:26:14   And it's like, no, no, no.

00:26:15   If you learn it, it's actually fairly straightforward.

00:26:18   Not all of them, but most of them.

00:26:19   But they look like nonsense.

00:26:22   - Well, I just thought, you know, but this is something,

00:26:24   this is like a perfect combination for me

00:26:26   because I have a knack for explaining things

00:26:28   and I have a knack for regular expressions.

00:26:30   And in hindsight, I still feel, you know, what is it?

00:26:33   14, 15 years later, I still feel

00:26:36   one of the best things I've ever written. Yeah, I love that chapter. I mentioned Jeff

00:26:42   Friedl's O'Reilly book about this. It's great, but it's from the possession of a

00:26:46   long-time Unix guy, and he talks about scripting a lot in that like shell and Perl scripting. And

00:26:53   for me, the most direct application was BBEdit. So the BBEdit chapter is a much more distilled,

00:26:59   clear approach to this than—I love that Friedl book, and I reference it all the time, but

00:27:05   the BBA chapter is just a much more simple, gentle introduction.

00:27:09   Yeah, I love it. I love the "FREEDLE" book, too, and I've read both editions—maybe three

00:27:13   editions. I think there might be a third—I don't know. Every time there's a new edition, I buy it.

00:27:16   There is a third.

00:27:17   And I have all three copies, and I've read them all cover to cover.

00:27:20   It is. But it's a—I would definitely say it is—this "FREEDLE" book is so comprehensive and so

00:27:32   well done. I don't know that I've ever read any book on any subject where you could say,

00:27:37   "Well, there's no need for anybody else to ever write a book on this again." But I would honestly

00:27:41   say that that's the case with Friedel's book on regular expressions. I just can't see how

00:27:45   anybody else would say, "Well, I'll take the time to write a technical book," which is really hard

00:27:52   on this subject when there's a book that covers it both perfectly and extensively.

00:27:58   All right, maybe I'll take a break. How about I take a break here and thank the first

00:28:02   friend of the show. It's our good friends.

00:28:05   - Sounds good.

00:28:07   - Good friends at Casper.

00:28:08   Casper, they make obsessively engineered mattresses

00:28:11   at shockingly fair prices.

00:28:12   Go to casper.com/thetalkshow and use code thetalkshow

00:28:17   and you'll save 50 bucks towards your mattress

00:28:20   with one exception.

00:28:21   Hold on, I'll tell you what that is.

00:28:23   So here's the deal.

00:28:24   I've told you this before, I'll say it again.

00:28:26   Casper has created one perfect type of mattress.

00:28:30   It's a combination of memory foam and some other stuff

00:28:35   that's just the right blend of types of things.

00:28:39   So you don't have to pick between six different types

00:28:42   of mattresses.

00:28:43   How do you know what the difference is?

00:28:46   These guys, it really is sort of like the Apple attitude

00:28:49   taken to mattresses.

00:28:50   Trust us, we'll do all the work.

00:28:52   We'll make one type of mattress,

00:28:54   and then all you have to do is pick the size.

00:28:56   That's it.

00:28:57   That is, it just sings to me.

00:29:00   This is how a mattress company should do it.

00:29:03   Now, in addition to that, because they sell,

00:29:05   they make 'em, right here in the United States, in fact,

00:29:08   and they sell them directly to you, you just go there,

00:29:12   they cut out the middleman and it enables them

00:29:15   to keep their prices incredibly lower

00:29:18   than the mainstream big brand mattresses you find

00:29:22   in traditional mattress stores.

00:29:24   Premium mattresses often start at well over 1500.

00:29:29   Casper mattresses cost just 500 for twin

00:29:32   750 for full 850 for Queen and just

00:29:36   950 for a king so you can get a king from them for less than like a twin from a lot of the other big brands

00:29:43   crazy

00:29:45   And like I said, they're made right here in America now

00:29:48   biggest thing you think how am I gonna buy a thousand dollar mattress and

00:29:52   Not even try it. You don't have to worry about it

00:29:56   They have a 100-night home trial.

00:29:58   If you don't love it, they will pick it up at your house,

00:30:00   give you a full refund.

00:30:02   No hard sell.

00:30:03   It's not like trying to cancel your cable.

00:30:05   It's something like that.

00:30:06   You just say, I want to send it back.

00:30:08   And they say, OK, when?

00:30:09   And then somebody shows up, and they take the mattress away.

00:30:12   And you get your money back.

00:30:13   And that's it.

00:30:13   I've had readers.

00:30:14   Casper's been a sponsor long enough.

00:30:16   I've gotten emails from readers who've done that.

00:30:18   And they said, I couldn't believe how easy it was

00:30:21   to actually just send it back.

00:30:23   Because they actually didn't believe

00:30:25   that it was going to be easy because that just

00:30:27   sounds too good to be true.

00:30:29   But that's how confident Casper is in their mattress.

00:30:31   Get yours today, 100 nights in your own home.

00:30:37   They have a dog mattress even.

00:30:40   That's a new product.

00:30:41   And that's the one that you don't get $50 on

00:30:43   because it's a lower price.

00:30:45   But if you have a dog, get him a good mattress.

00:30:47   Go check it out.

00:30:48   I've had readers tell me-- this is the thing.

00:30:51   When I first did this read, I didn't

00:30:52   know that the discount didn't apply to the dog one.

00:30:56   So I had a couple of readers who said,

00:30:57   "Hey, I bought my dog the mattress,

00:30:58   "but I didn't get 50 bucks off,

00:31:00   "but I don't care because my dog loves the mattress."

00:31:02   So that's the exception.

00:31:06   Go to casper.com/thetalkshow

00:31:07   and remember that code, thetalkshow,

00:31:09   to save 50 bucks on any human-sized mattress.

00:31:13   - Maybe that would get my dog off my couch.

00:31:17   - I love doing sponsor reads.

00:31:21   I've gone from having it be the part of this job that I hate to a part that I love.

00:31:27   I think that makes the—not to get podcasty inside baseball, but I think that makes the

00:31:32   reads better once.

00:31:34   When you can't—there are a couple of podcasts I listen to where, you know, the ads are part

00:31:40   of the entertainment and you just can't, you know, you can't not listen to them.

00:31:43   You can't tune out, you can't skip.

00:31:45   You really got to pay attention because they put their personality into them and, you know,

00:31:50   And I think that makes the difference.

00:31:52   If it's like a hostage video or something,

00:31:55   it's a lot less entertaining.

00:31:56   But if it's part of the fun, then it's a lot better.

00:31:59   - I can't even tell you how many emails I got from people

00:32:02   about last week's show with Merlin.

00:32:03   Were there, A, just thanking us like,

00:32:05   oh my God, I needed that for the election week.

00:32:08   And they were like, oh my God,

00:32:09   the sponsor reads so good.

00:32:11   I will just take a meta break here and just say,

00:32:15   I don't have time to respond to all of my email,

00:32:19   but I got so much email,

00:32:21   the most email I've gotten about an episode of the show

00:32:24   in as long as I can remember from people last week.

00:32:28   And all of it, I honestly didn't see one that was,

00:32:32   I honestly thought there'd be some from Trump people

00:32:34   or people who just don't wanna hear about people

00:32:37   who are upset about the way the election turned out.

00:32:41   Go back to tech, dummy.

00:32:42   I didn't get any of that, which was sort of our goal.

00:32:45   It was the way that we approached it

00:32:46   and what we talked about.

00:32:48   but I got so much email from people thanking us for that.

00:32:52   So I just wanna say to all of you who listen,

00:32:54   thank you for listening and thank you for the good words.

00:32:58   I have a podcast question for you, Jason.

00:33:00   You don't, I mean, do you do any other podcasts regularly?

00:33:04   - Occasionally.

00:33:07   - So you occasionally-- - I hear and there.

00:33:08   - Occasionally podcast. (laughs)

00:33:10   - Yeah, yeah, just from time to,

00:33:12   you mean like per day?

00:33:14   Some days I don't podcast.

00:33:16   I got a bug up my butt recently about something that I had never thought about before.

00:33:25   This is the sort of thing that I tend to think about.

00:33:27   I can't believe I didn't really think that much about it when I set up the talk show

00:33:30   to be on Daring Fireball, which is the fact that I've been doing it.

00:33:39   I've always done it.

00:33:40   And in most of the podcasts, almost all the podcasts I see do it.

00:33:44   putting the episode number in the title and making the episode number a major part, you know, like the

00:33:49   the main anchor on the URL that the like dead on on our websites on six colors and during fireball

00:33:57   we don't have post number you know for 23123. Right, oh that was a good one. Yeah, good old

00:34:06   good old 23,323. Why why do we do this and and you know uh tv shows don't do it i mean they

00:34:14   sort of do now, like when you watch digitally, you know, you're going through season one,

00:34:20   episode seven of American Horror Story or whatever. So there is, there's sort of that on TV, but...

00:34:28   I don't know. It's a good question. Like, why? Why do we number podcasts? And you,

00:34:36   I can always tell what number it is, because you actually do number them in the, like, the slug

00:34:39   of the talk show, but not like in what people see, just like the written descriptions.

00:34:46   Right. Well, but I have them in the metadata for the show, so like when you're looking at it in

00:34:52   your podcast player, it will say 173 colon. Well, I switched recently. I did switch just a couple

00:35:00   weeks ago from putting EP period space, the digital, you know, representation of the number

00:35:08   colon, I took out the EP.

00:35:11   Because I thought, you know what?

00:35:13   It's cruft like that that I don't like.

00:35:16   I like clean URLs.

00:35:18   I don't like seeing dot PHP at the end of a URL.

00:35:21   I don't like seeing all the gibberish and the medium URLs.

00:35:26   I don't like tracking any URL.

00:35:28   I like the URL to have every single bit of it be meaningful.

00:35:33   And that same way with the titles.

00:35:35   It seems to me--

00:35:37   I don't know.

00:35:38   There seemed it part of me thinks that part of it is that you want to know which one's the newest episode in your podcast

00:35:43   player and that maybe it actually is useful because you

00:35:46   It's it's a more confident way of making sure that your podcast player whatever software it is

00:35:52   Whichever sort order it's using top to bottom or bottom to top, you know, which one's the newest one

00:35:57   Mm-hmm. So I'm keeping it. I like when I made the change to get rid of the EP period I

00:36:02   Was on the verge of just getting rid of them period and maybe just putting them in the URL

00:36:07   But then I thought you know what? I think there's a reason everybody does it

00:36:10   And I'm curious what you think. I don't know if it's a reason that is

00:36:15   I don't know if it's a good reason or if it's more just sort of continuity. I mean some of it is

00:36:20   reference wise to be able to say it's this one like saying like um

00:36:25   like a Mac world we had volumes and

00:36:29   numbers like

00:36:31   Internally we would have like you turn in a story and it would be 24-04 and that was

00:36:38   Literally 24-04 was like the to the April

00:36:43   2008 issue or something. It was like volume 24 number 4

00:36:48   And and that was partially because in a file in the file system like it would sort right

00:36:53   That all the 24-04 s would go together and then there you'd have 24-05 and it would just kind of keep going like that

00:37:00   So I think some of it is just sort of like finding an internal structure and for podcasts you could do it by date

00:37:04   You could literally say, you know, this is the one for

00:37:08   You know this day in November of 2016 and the metadata certainly supplies that so you could just you could just do that

00:37:16   You could have nothing

00:37:18   I don't know as a kid growing up

00:37:21   I really loved reading comic books and the comic books always had that like this is Amazing Spider-Man number

00:37:27   1983 and and they would have footnotes and they would say Oh spider-man face the scorpion before in Amazing Spider-Man number

00:37:34   83 and sent him to prison and you'd be like, oh number 83

00:37:37   Yes

00:37:37   if only I had that issue I could read that now and I

00:37:40   Part of what appeals to me about the podcast numbering scheme is that which is just it lets you hang a number on it and say

00:37:47   For reference sake this is what it is rather than saying season one number three

00:37:52   Or just giving you a date

00:37:56   But I don't know if that's a great reason to do it

00:37:58   Probably also the the other thought I had is since the incomparable is now at three hundred and twenty six episodes

00:38:05   I

00:38:07   think maybe it was a

00:38:09   It made sense when you did ten episodes of a podcast in the early days of podcasting and now there are these podcasts that have

00:38:17   Hundreds and hundreds of episodes were pretty soon. If not already there will very soon be many

00:38:23   podcasts with with

00:38:25   a thousand plus episodes. It's sort of crazy. Marco was saying on ATP a couple an episode or two ago

00:38:32   because he knows because he runs the radio ones. Yeah, he said that the radio they're already there.

00:38:39   Yeah, and they do because there's radio stations that will publish five or six podcasts a day like

00:38:44   meaning like the 15 hour one hour two hour three hour four of the you know the sports fans podcast

00:38:52   in the morning. And so you'll have episode 1500. It's crazy. The comic book analogy is pretty good.

00:39:00   Yeah, that's the best for me is it gives you something to hang it on sequentially and say,

00:39:06   "Look, we've done a lot of these." And then I have that with Incomparable. I mean, even though

00:39:11   we built an index, one of the reasons that we did end up using use Moveable Type, which you

00:39:15   you use on Daring Fireball for the incomparable CMS is because I wanted an index of topics.

00:39:24   And so, I've got an index of topics. So, if somebody wants to see what's that episode

00:39:27   where John Gruber and John Syracuse are talking about the Godfather, you can look up the Godfather

00:39:32   and it'll be like, it's this number, right? But still, people will email me, tweet me,

00:39:37   post on Facebook, whatever they'll say. When was that episode about whatever? And there

00:39:42   is something nice about being able to say that was number 32 and just kind of point

00:39:46   them and be like, it's that one, that number. I don't know. It's like a little handle for

00:39:51   an episode.

00:39:52   Yeah. The alternative would be to just look at the dates and somehow, but that doesn't

00:39:57   show up. That's not going to show up in the list in your podcast player.

00:40:01   Well, but that's maybe a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?

00:40:04   Right.

00:40:05   I mean, I think maybe podcast player UI is in part based on the idea that a lot of podcasts

00:40:11   organize themselves by numbers, but like Overcast has a date field, and there are dates for

00:40:17   every episode in Overcast, and I would imagine most podcast players are kind of like that.

00:40:22   And certainly if podcasts weren't numbered, I'm sure they would all be like that.

00:40:26   Yeah, but if I made mine not numbered, or didn't put the numbers into titles, it's not

00:40:32   going to change it, you know what I mean? It's the collective decision that the podcast

00:40:38   industry as a whole has made to do that.

00:40:40   Yeah, it's more fun for me to say we talked about Raiders of the Lost Ark and the Incomparable

00:40:46   Number Eight than it is to say October 17, 2010 episode.

00:40:55   Was that the gap in my appearances on the Incomparable? Because we laughed about it.

00:40:59   I was just on recently, like you just said, to talk about the Godfather with John Sirkusa

00:41:03   and a few other… I forget their names. I'm sorry.

00:41:08   There was a bunch.

00:41:09   It was great.

00:41:11   I had a great time.

00:41:13   I can't count the number of people who made the crack on Twitter that they can't believe

00:41:17   that all of us long-winded podcasters made a podcast about the Godfather that was shorter

00:41:22   than the Godfather.

00:41:23   I know.

00:41:26   But was that it?

00:41:27   That I hadn't been on since Raiders, which was episode 8?

00:41:29   Yeah, that was basically six years, October 10 to October 16.

00:41:34   Other than that day—you were in—I interviewed my Dave Letterman episode, which was last

00:41:38   year. But in terms of being on the panel, yeah, we went from 8 to 323. It's fine. It's fine. I tried

00:41:44   a couple of times to get you on, and it's like you're busy, and I want to, like with Merlin,

00:41:48   I kind of want to deploy you guys tactically. I don't want to be like, I want to ask you when

00:41:52   there's something I got that's really good. And it was like, for like a couple years I've been

00:41:55   thinking, we're going to do the Godfather, I'm going to get Syracuse, I'm going to ask John

00:41:58   Gruber, we're going to make it happen. And we finally made it happen. It was great. We got to

00:42:02   talk about Abe Vigoda. Any chance to talk about Abe Vigoda is worth it.

00:42:06   Although we didn't make it happen until Abe Vagoda was actually dead.

00:42:10   Yeah, well, that's true. Maybe that was what I was waiting for.

00:42:13   I wanted Abe to pass on before we talked about him.

00:42:16   This is so amazing. I literally, just five seconds ago, got a DM from Rich Segal, creator of BBEdit,

00:42:28   asking if I'd heard that Sal had left Apple.

00:42:31   (laughing)

00:42:34   - I was spooked, I was like, is he listening?

00:42:35   Do we have a live broadcast that I don't know about?

00:42:38   - I should have turned off the live stream

00:42:40   for being comfortable.

00:42:42   - But then I realized that--

00:42:43   - He knows we're talking about him.

00:42:43   - Well, then I realized that asking have I heard

00:42:47   means he's not spooking me, but that was kind of spooky

00:42:50   given that we spent a good chunk of the last 45 minutes

00:42:53   talking about BB Edit and automation and Sal.

00:42:56   - Yeah.

00:42:57   (laughing)

00:43:01   - New MacBook Pros.

00:43:02   - Yeah.

00:43:04   - I read, I really enjoyed your review.

00:43:07   I often think, when I write these reviews,

00:43:11   I don't know if you feel the same way,

00:43:12   but I write them and sometimes I feel like

00:43:16   I know that I've got this.

00:43:18   Like, I don't care if other people agree with me or not,

00:43:22   but I know that what I'm saying about this, I'm certain of.

00:43:25   Other times, I feel like I haven't had enough time

00:43:27   Or it's-- a lot of times it's just

00:43:32   that I feel like I haven't had enough time.

00:43:34   But other times it's like, I'm not sure

00:43:36   that what I care about is representative

00:43:39   of enough people.

00:43:41   And I kind of had that worry with the review

00:43:44   I wrote of these MacBook Pros.

00:43:46   Because I know that there's a lot of people

00:43:50   who are disappointed in just the basic idea of the direction

00:43:55   Apple is taking them.

00:43:56   But I read a whole bunch of the reviews from people

00:43:59   who I really respect, like you and Joanna Stern.

00:44:01   It goes on.

00:44:05   I read a whole bunch of them after my review.

00:44:08   And it really seemed to me like a very large consensus

00:44:12   of that these are pretty good machines.

00:44:14   - Yeah, I tried to,

00:44:18   I mean, because of the way it got kind of strung out,

00:44:20   I got to write a piece after the Apple event

00:44:25   that was basically quick hands-on with that 13-inch MacBook escape. And then I got to use it for a week

00:44:31   and travel and then write another piece about it. So by the time I got to the Touch Bar one,

00:44:35   I felt like I'd kind of addressed the issues about people's disappointment. I wrote, I think,

00:44:40   a Macworld column about people's disappointment and what that meant for why Apple let everything

00:44:46   build up and people kind of—this was a thing they could focus some of their disappointment and let

00:44:51   it out. And so I felt like by the time I got to the Touch Bar review, it was great because

00:44:56   I could just write about the Touch Bar. I wrote a couple sections about the rest of

00:45:00   the computer, but really it was an essay about the Touch Bar and Touch ID, because that was

00:45:04   the thing that was left and frankly was the thing I found most interesting.

00:45:09   And it's really why I—honestly, I'm not just saying it because you're on the show

00:45:14   and you're a pal—it's really why, of all the reviews, I really think I liked yours

00:45:18   best because I spent a relatively little amount on Touch Bar just because I had so much else

00:45:24   to say about sort of the bigger picture.

00:45:29   And the other thing I thought was that your video, which focused almost entirely on the

00:45:35   Touch Bar, was super instructive in the difference between the way Apple would do a promotional

00:45:42   video about the Touch Bar, or in fact did, and they showed it during the event.

00:45:47   was focused on, look, when you're doing real stuff,

00:45:49   like here's just stupid little things,

00:45:52   like the fact that you can--

00:45:55   when you adjust the brightness or the volume,

00:45:57   you can just put your finger on it

00:45:59   and slide without tapping on the actual thing that shows up.

00:46:03   It illustrated in a way that I feel like 10,000 words

00:46:07   wouldn't have conveyed.

00:46:09   It's a visual-- it's clearly a very visual input device.

00:46:13   And so I feel like the video really helped.

00:46:14   Have you done video reviews before?

00:46:17   - I've done a handful of them.

00:46:18   I mean, I did some at Macworld.

00:46:20   And then since I've been doing Six Colors,

00:46:21   I've done a few, you know, they take time.

00:46:24   And the challenge is always,

00:46:25   am I doing this because everybody agrees

00:46:27   that video is the future and we need to do video?

00:46:29   Or am I doing it because video will be able

00:46:31   to impart something that's worth imparting?

00:46:34   And for me, it really is like,

00:46:36   I will put in the time if I feel like

00:46:38   this is gonna be the best way to communicate something.

00:46:39   And with the touch bar, it was very clear.

00:46:41   This was the way to,

00:46:43   I needed to communicate what was going on with the touch bar.

00:46:46   And I had the time.

00:46:47   I finished that review basically on Friday afternoon,

00:46:50   and the embargo was Monday morning.

00:46:52   And so on the weekend, on the Sunday morning,

00:46:53   I basically sat down and said, all right,

00:46:55   let's figure out if I can make a video here.

00:46:57   And I ended up with an iPhone 7 in a glyph attached

00:47:02   to a little tripod and then a bigger tripod.

00:47:06   And I tried to figure out, could I

00:47:08   get an angle where I can see the touch bar

00:47:10   and it's not blown out?

00:47:11   and then I can capture the screen

00:47:14   and kind of put them together.

00:47:15   And in the end, it did work, which is good.

00:47:17   'Cause that's what I wanted is like,

00:47:19   I wanted people to be able to see like,

00:47:21   what happens on screen?

00:47:22   What happens on the touch bar?

00:47:23   Where do your fingers go?

00:47:24   What's the result?

00:47:25   Can you see the animations?

00:47:26   Can you see how some of the apps

00:47:30   have these totally wild like slider interfaces

00:47:33   and others just have keys?

00:47:34   Some of them color the keys,

00:47:35   some of them don't color the keys.

00:47:37   And until, you know, there will be,

00:47:40   It's a little harder because you can't do a screen capture of it, so it's harder to make those videos.

00:47:44   And I had the advantage of having some time to shoot the video, and I figured out of the gate,

00:47:48   there aren't going to be that many videos that explain this feature.

00:47:51   And Apple's videos are probably not what people want to see because they're going to be really slick,

00:47:56   but they're not necessarily—I mean, they're marketing videos.

00:47:58   They're not going to be necessarily slowed down enough for people to see what's going on.

00:48:03   And in the end, it was about five minutes long, which, you know, I kind of feel like could be too long,

00:48:08   but at the same time I felt like I really packed it in

00:48:10   with stuff, so, but it was worth doing because of that,

00:48:13   because it was, how much, how many words, like you said,

00:48:16   how many words would I have had to try to write

00:48:18   to convey what I could just show in a video?

00:48:21   - Yeah, I honestly feel like that's the sort of thing

00:48:25   that just can't be done verbally.

00:48:27   And you know, even just little things like,

00:48:33   look, here's what it looks like in this app,

00:48:34   here's what it looks like in this app,

00:48:36   and they're all sort of monochromatic,

00:48:38   And you can go through a bunch of stuff in the touch bar apps,

00:48:42   switching from app to app and doing things

00:48:45   and using the control strip.

00:48:46   And it almost feels like a monochrome screen.

00:48:51   And then all of a sudden, you're in something like Maps.

00:48:54   And it is all lit up like Times Square.

00:48:58   And I'm not saying that's wrong yet.

00:49:00   But it is such a different thing, though.

00:49:03   And all of a sudden, when your keyboard--

00:49:06   Maps is probably the best example,

00:49:08   but when your keyboard lights up with all those colors,

00:49:12   it is a weird different thing because I've

00:49:15   been using laptops for, I don't know, a long time, at least 15,

00:49:23   16, 17 years since I first bought one.

00:49:27   And I had one at the school paper before that,

00:49:29   so probably 20 years.

00:49:31   My keyboards never lit up in color before.

00:49:35   It was surprisingly weird to me.

00:49:37   It really was, when you get the burst of color,

00:49:41   it really was surprisingly interesting to me.

00:49:44   - Yeah, the calculator is the other one that struck me

00:49:46   because there are a few of those keys are like in orange,

00:49:48   they're like super bright.

00:49:50   And they're still keys, but they're super bright.

00:49:53   That maps, it's basically putting up the same icons

00:49:56   that are in iOS and they're very colorful.

00:49:57   That is by far the most colorful implementation

00:49:59   of sort of standard buttons.

00:50:01   But like, the calculator,

00:50:03   I thought calculator was really instructive,

00:50:04   not only in the use of color, but both Calculator and James

00:50:07   Thompson's PCALC app.

00:50:09   Those were both instructive to me

00:50:12   in realizing that what I think is the right way to handle

00:50:16   the touch bar is as an extension of the keyboard and not--

00:50:20   I mean, when all the questions of like, why would you

00:50:23   need a touch bar?

00:50:24   Why wouldn't you just want to use the Mac interface?

00:50:26   It was that idea of, I don't know

00:50:28   how to do this with the keyboard, which

00:50:31   means that I'm going to get to a certain point

00:50:33   where I have to take my hands off the keyboard,

00:50:35   move down to the track pad,

00:50:36   and click on some UI on the screen.

00:50:38   And so the calculator was that moment where I realized,

00:50:40   oh, I can put like square root and cube root

00:50:43   and log and sine and cosine on the touch bar.

00:50:46   And I can do numbers and then immediately

00:50:49   just move my hands slightly up and go tap.

00:50:51   And now I've got a result or conversion,

00:50:54   you know, Fahrenheit to Celsius or something.

00:50:55   And my hands stay, I was already up on the number row,

00:50:58   right, and my hands just move up.

00:51:00   And that was that moment where I thought, oh yeah,

00:51:02   this is why this is, this is where this shines,

00:51:05   is I just stay on the keyboard.

00:51:07   And the touch bar kind of just is an extension

00:51:09   of the keyboard that,

00:51:11   and is that how everybody's going to use it?

00:51:13   I don't know.

00:51:14   It's so early, we don't really know,

00:51:15   but it felt to me like that was the moment that unlocked,

00:51:18   like, I see why you would use this.

00:51:21   And when I, James sent me a beta of PCALC,

00:51:25   where when you tap the function keys,

00:51:27   it brought up a palette of all his functions in the UI.

00:51:30   And what that meant was I tapped the touch bar

00:51:33   and then I had to take my hands off the keyboard,

00:51:36   move to the track pad, and then move the cursor up

00:51:38   and then click on which one I wanted.

00:51:40   And I sent him an email back and I said,

00:51:41   "You know, I think this is wrong.

00:51:43   I think what you need is to put your functions

00:51:46   in the touch bar because it feels like a defeat.

00:51:50   If I touch the touch bar and then I have to take my hands

00:51:52   off of it and move around with the cursor."

00:51:54   And so he changed it and now it's like your most recent

00:51:58   functions and conversions appear in the touch bar.

00:52:00   and it's like night and day because now I type in 32 and I tap conversion Fahrenheit to Celsius and

00:52:06   That and it all happens on the touch bar and I never have to sort of switch modes to mousing around

00:52:12   yeah, and I think that

00:52:15   Calculator is the apples calculators an interesting example in a couple of ways I I

00:52:22   My gut feeling is that that's one of the apps that got it most, right?

00:52:28   Yeah, me too and one thing too and I know Apple said this is true

00:52:31   but my experience testing the device is that it is clear that

00:52:35   Apple's Mac app

00:52:39   engineering teams spent a lot of time working on touch bar support for their apps because there are

00:52:44   Obviously some of the oddball apps like the ones that are in applications slash utilities, you know

00:52:49   Those got updated. Did you really go through everyone? I did I did

00:52:54   You want you want to hear the list?

00:52:58   - It's like, so, so, you, activity monitor,

00:53:03   that's the one that gets me.

00:53:04   Activity monitor and terminal are the two utilities

00:53:07   that got updated. - Oh, I knew about terminal.

00:53:09   I forgot about that.

00:53:10   I forgot that terminal was that,

00:53:11   was buried away in utilities.

00:53:13   I use it so much. - Yeah, but,

00:53:14   but they also updated, and this is some of their stock,

00:53:16   and some of them are their sort of app store apps,

00:53:18   but calculator, calendar, contacts,

00:53:20   finder, Final Cut Pro, GarageBand, iMovie, iTunes,

00:53:23   keynote, mail, maps, messages, numbers, pages, photos,

00:53:26   Preview, QuickTime Player, Safari system preferences.

00:53:30   And then there are a bunch of apps that use the sort of standard text editing interface,

00:53:33   and they pick up a text editor touch bar interface, so like TextEdit and Notes get that text editing

00:53:41   interface too.

00:53:42   So there's like more than a dozen.

00:53:43   They did a lot.

00:53:44   I mean, for people who say Apple doesn't care about the Mac, it's like they built this whole

00:53:48   new bit of hardware, and then they updated all of these Mac apps to support it.

00:53:53   That was a lot of work.

00:53:54   Right.

00:53:55   there's a lot of work in,

00:53:58   I might be missing something actually,

00:54:01   but there's the hardware engineering work

00:54:05   of actually putting an embedded iOS device

00:54:08   into the keyboard with the system on a chip

00:54:11   and having a way that it can interface with the Intel side.

00:54:15   You've got like this little arm computer

00:54:18   running on your keyboard,

00:54:19   and it communicates with the Intel side.

00:54:22   And the Intel side even does the,

00:54:23   because one of the things that the iOS device

00:54:26   on the touch bar doesn't have is a GPU.

00:54:28   So the Intel side does the GPU rendering

00:54:32   and it has to go back, but it's all done securely.

00:54:34   And there's a whole bunch of electrical engineering

00:54:37   going on there that's, and it just,

00:54:39   you'd never know it, right?

00:54:40   It's 60 frames per second, just like iOS.

00:54:45   It's instantaneous touch.

00:54:48   It's just like you'd expect

00:54:50   from any Apple iOS touch device.

00:54:52   So there's the physical hardware engineering of that.

00:54:55   And then the second level is the Mac programming side,

00:55:04   where all of these apps were updated with--

00:55:08   whether they got it right or wrong, none of them

00:55:10   seemed half-assed.

00:55:11   They all seemed like a lot of thought went into it.

00:55:13   All of these apps got updated with touch bar support,

00:55:17   which is a lot of work.

00:55:19   But then in between those two, there's the Xcode side,

00:55:23   where the people who work on the APIs and Xcode itself

00:55:28   had to do all the work to make it so that Mac developers have

00:55:33   APIs and simulators so they can test it

00:55:36   on machines that don't actually have a touch bar

00:55:38   and all of that stuff.

00:55:39   So an awful lot of work went into this.

00:55:42   And I completely agree.

00:55:43   It's, to me, example number one, that whatever else is going on

00:55:47   with the Mac and some of the machines that have gone way too long without getting updated,

00:55:52   it's clear that Apple is invested in the Mac. I really think the touch bar is proof of it.

00:55:58   Yeah, and we can debate, and I've been trying to make this distinction for the last couple

00:56:03   of weeks. It's like, part of what I think a lot of us do is try to understand why Apple

00:56:07   is doing what Apple's motivation is, why Apple made the choices it made, and I want to separate

00:56:12   that from the judgments about whether these are good decisions or not. Because I think

00:56:17   we could debate whether doing the touch bar is a good decision or not. And we can debate

00:56:22   the price of these systems, and we can debate, you know, there's so many aspects of this

00:56:28   that we can talk about, but I think you can't debate the fact that Apple made a major investment

00:56:34   in the Mac platform in this particular computer, because we're seeing a huge bit of hardware

00:56:42   engineering happening here, and a whole lot of software engineering happening here. So

00:56:46   We can debate whether we think this was the right approach,

00:56:49   whether this was a waste of time,

00:56:51   whether having a laptop-focused input device method

00:56:55   is good or bad, if it's gonna be a gimmick.

00:56:57   There's all those things, but you can't debate.

00:57:00   It was a huge investment on Apple's part to do this,

00:57:02   and if they really didn't care about the Mac,

00:57:04   why would they do it?

00:57:05   - Right, exactly.

00:57:07   I--

00:57:08   - Just do another laptop with the latest Intel chips

00:57:10   and move on, right?

00:57:11   I mean, they could do that.

00:57:12   - Yeah.

00:57:13   Here's why I think calculators is a great example.

00:57:15   Apple calculator app is a great example because the buttons, so Apple it at least I don't know

00:57:21   ever since like iOS 7 or so and then when you know the the Yosemite whenever the Mac version was that

00:57:29   got the sort of iOS style visual refresh, Apple has a very consistent calculator look and it's

00:57:35   you know mostly based on the color orange. Yeah. They you know orange buttons so when those buttons

00:57:43   are on the keyboard, it makes the keyboard look calculator-branded, right?

00:57:48   Like, and so if you use Apple's calculator, you know what it looks like.

00:57:51   It's got this sort of just orange calculator look. You see these buttons

00:57:55   that are orange, and it's, it to me is a very cool way of making the touch bar

00:58:00   feel like it's part of the app. It's, it's a really cool move. And all of the, all

00:58:06   of the functions that are in orange on the UI are orange on the touch bar, and

00:58:13   And so it's like, yeah, you immediately get it.

00:58:15   You're like, oh yeah, right, of course they are.

00:58:17   Of course the equals button is orange.

00:58:19   - So when I was at the event,

00:58:23   and I got to talk to people at Apple,

00:58:27   and they showed me the calculator,

00:58:27   and they said, and a couple of the people I spoke to,

00:58:31   said this is one of my favorite examples,

00:58:32   and I know it sounds silly, but they showed me calculator.

00:58:34   And then at first, like in the default calculator mode,

00:58:37   the only buttons you have up there

00:58:38   are divide times minus plus equals.

00:58:40   And they said, no, that seems silly,

00:58:43   because those buttons are there.

00:58:44   You can hit Shift on the equals key to get plus.

00:58:47   And it's not like you can't type that.

00:58:52   But they said, in our testing with the team that

00:58:57   was using it, we found that we loved this.

00:58:59   And surprising how many people inside Apple

00:59:03   who had access to this and were working on it

00:59:06   loved the calculator thing.

00:59:07   Because all of a sudden, you don't have to--

00:59:10   it makes your laptop keyboard feel more

00:59:14   like having that extended keyboard that

00:59:16   has the thing on the right side where

00:59:18   you have number pads and dedicated buttons

00:59:21   for those features.

00:59:22   There's a reason why some people who enter numbers a lot

00:59:25   like having an extended keyboard that

00:59:27   has that keypad over there.

00:59:29   It gives you sort of the--

00:59:30   now, the number layout maybe isn't

00:59:32   quite as convenient having a horizontal row of numbers,

00:59:34   but not having to worry about ever hitting Shift

00:59:37   or the fact that they're not consecutive,

00:59:41   that minus is right there,

00:59:43   but plus you have to hit shift to get,

00:59:45   I mean, it's all sort of weird typing those operators

00:59:48   on the keyboard, on a regular keyboard,

00:59:51   with you don't have a numpad.

00:59:52   With the touch bar, it really is natural.

00:59:55   - Yeah, I mean, you could argue that calculator

01:00:00   is the best example,

01:00:02   and that they really do run the gamut.

01:00:05   I do think that this is gonna be an interface playground

01:00:08   where we're gonna learn a lot in the next year or two,

01:00:11   where Apple and third-party developers try a bunch of stuff

01:00:14   and find out what the right approach is,

01:00:16   because it's all over the map now.

01:00:17   Like calculator is a good example

01:00:19   because there are buttons you wanna press

01:00:22   that aren't on keys.

01:00:24   Like there is no, I mean, there's an equals key

01:00:27   and there's a plus and minus,

01:00:28   and, you know, but like multiplication is the asterisk

01:00:32   and division is the slash.

01:00:33   And it's like, no, no, we're just gonna put

01:00:35   the symbols on these virtual keys at the top.

01:00:38   It's like, that is the like almost purest example

01:00:41   where there are things you want to type

01:00:42   that you don't know what keys to press.

01:00:45   So we're gonna just draw those keys on the touch bar

01:00:48   and now you know how to press them.

01:00:50   And you go all the way down to something like Final Cut,

01:00:54   which is this incredibly intricate context-based set of,

01:00:59   sometimes it's buttons,

01:01:00   sometimes it's got like sliders and scrubbers and things.

01:01:03   And then there's a bunch of stuff that's in between,

01:01:06   where some of them you look at it and you go,

01:01:08   I don't know if this is very useful.

01:01:10   And then others you look at and like maps

01:01:13   and you're like, whoa, what am I seeing now?

01:01:15   I can tap the gas station button now

01:01:19   and it'll show me all the gas stations around me.

01:01:21   And I think over time, we'll figure out what,

01:01:25   philosophically, like what's the right approach?

01:01:27   What do people, what looks good

01:01:29   and what do people actually wanna use?

01:01:32   I found Safaris to be useless.

01:01:34   And I have to admit that I didn't spend a lot of time

01:01:38   configuring the touch bar in a lot of apps,

01:01:40   just because I ran out of time.

01:01:41   And I feel like I will, once I'm using a touch bar equipped

01:01:46   MacBook Pro as my main laptop, I will get in to do that.

01:01:51   But I found Safaris default implementation to be useless,

01:01:55   which is that it shows thumbnails of your tabs

01:01:57   in your current window.

01:01:59   And I mean, maybe daring fireball is identifiable

01:02:03   'cause it looks like a gray button,

01:02:05   but they just look like a bunch of,

01:02:07   almost every webpage just shrunk to that size

01:02:11   is indistinguishable.

01:02:13   They're just little white with things,

01:02:17   little white with gray, it's just too small.

01:02:21   I couldn't possibly use that.

01:02:24   - I also am a little bit baffled.

01:02:26   And I say this also, this is a larger complaint

01:02:29   have is they added these tabs, Safari tabs in El Capitan, and I like them and I use them,

01:02:36   but they're not on iOS to this day, and they're not in the touch bar, which also kind of baffles

01:02:41   me. Like, I've told you I want these sites and they've got these nice little icons and

01:02:47   they're important enough that I want you to keep them tabbed all the time.

01:02:50   Oh, the pin tabs you mean?

01:02:52   Yeah, the pin tabs. They're not accessible either. So it's a little bit... And yeah,

01:02:56   graphic that's a great example of like

01:02:59   what we can do graphic previews of what

01:03:00   of all the pages that you've gotten your

01:03:02   tabs and make it a slider it's like well

01:03:04   that sounds great that's a really cool

01:03:05   way of showing that this is a feature

01:03:09   that has more than just buttons in it

01:03:10   but in practice I don't think it makes

01:03:13   any sense I don't think it works at all

01:03:14   I think that that's the there are a

01:03:16   bunch of things like that like you know

01:03:17   I get why you did it but I honestly got

01:03:20   I feel embarrassed that I didn't even

01:03:22   look because it maybe I actually you

01:03:24   maybe you can actually go in and

01:03:26   configure it to do this. But so if it's already there, I'm going

01:03:29   to go after we're done recording, I'm going to go set

01:03:32   up my my review unit to do this. But I think it should be the

01:03:35   default. I in my gut is I think that Safari should just default

01:03:40   to putting next tab previous tab buttons up in the don't show me

01:03:45   a one just say next tab previous tab and make them nice and big

01:03:48   and have them say next tab previous tab. Oh, yeah.

01:03:50   No, it's got backward and forward.

01:03:54   Yeah, I don't want back one forward. I want next tab, previous tab, because I feel that the

01:03:58   shortcuts for that is kind of convoluted. It's like control tab and control shift tab, which is

01:04:04   really a fingerful. So you get that with those visual previews. I do wonder, and I suspect that

01:04:11   there's a guideline somewhere that I haven't seen because I'm not a developer. I do wonder about

01:04:15   the touch bar being used for informational purposes if somebody laid down an edict that,

01:04:20   like information that isn't permanent, that's like temporary text, should not go in the touch bar.

01:04:27   Because like I'm baffled why the now playing in the control strip brings up a scrubber for iTunes,

01:04:33   which is like I'm never going to scrub for music, but it might be kind of fun to if I pop that open

01:04:38   to see the name of the song I'm listening to. It's not there. And it won't, it'll show you in Safari,

01:04:43   it'll show you little tiny thumbnails of part of the page of the web page that you're, you've got

01:04:47   got loaded in your tabs, but what it won't do is put up like the name of that tab of

01:04:53   that page, which would be more, way more useful. And I wonder if they've decided like, no,

01:04:59   ephemeral kind of like text labels of what's in a page is not something you should do in

01:05:04   the touch bar. I'm not sure I agree with that, but it seems like there's a rule at work here

01:05:10   that they don't want to put like a text readout. It's only for controls, not for information.

01:05:16   even then I would say, but a sliver of, a horizontal sliver of a web page as a

01:05:22   preview is useless to me too. I am reminded, and I skimmed the user interface

01:05:33   guidelines for the touch bar. I should go back to that and reread them, read them

01:05:37   thoroughly. But I can't help but think that no matter how well-written that

01:05:41   document is just the evidence of using all of Apple's apps is that it's still

01:05:47   sort of a Wild West and they're feeling and now the third-party developers can

01:05:52   get in on it we collectively are feeling our way to how we should use it and what

01:05:56   I'm reminded of is how in the very early years of the original Mac let's say

01:06:02   somewhere around 1984 to 89 or so I would say it took four or five years the

01:06:11   The Mac was famous for its human interface guidelines

01:06:14   right from the beginning, and that there was consistency

01:06:16   and a toolbox that developers could use

01:06:18   so everybody's alert would look the same.

01:06:20   But you go back and look at screenshots

01:06:22   from almost close to the '90s.

01:06:26   I'd say right around System 6 is where things

01:06:28   got very definitively, oh, that's Mac-like,

01:06:32   or this app was clearly written by a developer

01:06:35   who does not know the Mac.

01:06:36   You just see stupid things.

01:06:38   like somebody who spelled OKAY in a button, right?

01:06:43   Like to a Mac user's eyes,

01:06:46   it just jumps right out as, that's a mistake, right?

01:06:51   You do not spell OKAY.

01:06:53   But if you look back at like 84, 85, 86, like Mac dialogues,

01:06:57   you'd see that all the time.

01:07:00   And you are just weird layout,

01:07:02   like not having a default button in a dialogue, right?

01:07:06   things that you are putting the default button,

01:07:09   not in the bottom right corner.

01:07:11   Just things that eventually became like,

01:07:13   what's the word idiomatic, right?

01:07:18   Idiomatic Mac UI design.

01:07:20   We don't have that yet.

01:07:21   That's the what's an idiomatic design

01:07:24   for the touch bar of an app,

01:07:25   the touch bar interface for an app.

01:07:27   What type of features are, should go in there by default?

01:07:30   We don't have it yet.

01:07:31   - Yeah, and I'm excited by the fact,

01:07:35   I mean, you could argue like maybe Apple's app

01:07:38   should show a little more unification than they have,

01:07:41   but I'm okay with it the way it is,

01:07:43   which is everybody, it looks like,

01:07:45   with some rules and restrictions,

01:07:47   everybody has tried to develop the right approach

01:07:51   for their app and their content and their users

01:07:55   and sort of let the chips fall where they may.

01:07:58   And I think that's great because I, I mean, right now,

01:08:01   I think I could say with certainty that there are apps

01:08:04   do it wrong and that do it right. And we can argue about which is which, but like there

01:08:07   is such a variation. And maybe it'll turn out that something like what Final Cut does

01:08:15   is totally the right way to do it, which is you got sliders and you're intensively using

01:08:20   it like the DJ app on stage, right? And maybe, you know, if I had to choose, I would guess

01:08:28   that maybe we're going to back off of that and say actually what we saw with DJ in Photoshop,

01:08:33   we see with Final Cut Pro is maybe too far, too intense, too much of a UI instead of a

01:08:40   set of shortcuts. And maybe we'll back off of it. Maybe not. Maybe it'll turn out that

01:08:45   that UI is what people love and having that surface there is the best thing in the world.

01:08:50   But my gut feeling is that it's like, that's a big step to go and I'm not sure that it's

01:08:56   the right approach. But I'm sure people at Apple were debating it too. And it doesn't

01:08:59   have to be one or the other. I mean, right now it isn't. In fact, my biggest criticism of Final

01:09:03   Cut is more that it's so complicated that it seems to be not customizable in any way.

01:09:07   And that's, for me, the fact that they went back to this classic, like, from 10.0 customized

01:09:14   toolbar interface to let people customize the touch bar, I really like that because

01:09:19   it should be personal. You should be putting the stuff on it that you care about the most.

01:09:24   And I don't know how many people do that, but I'm glad that that's there and that it is customizable.

01:09:28   I worried that it wasn't. I mean, the next step should probably be to make the

01:09:32   let third parties have access to the control strip, but one thing at a time.

01:09:35   Yeah, and I really like it just feels so Mac-like

01:09:39   in terms of the way that the customization feels exactly like

01:09:46   customizing the toolbar in a window in a cocoa app. It's,

01:09:50   you know, and that's, you know, it's by design and it's no surprise, but it

01:09:53   really just goes to show that the people who wrote these

01:09:56   APIs are, you know, knew what they were doing and they did it the right way.

01:10:01   Yeah, and I, you know, I always say when they show these things on stage and people ask afterward,

01:10:07   I'm sure they do the same to you, like, "Well, what did you think?" A lot of it's like, "Well,

01:10:11   it looked good. Let's see what the details are." And when I first customized the toolbar,

01:10:15   I was like, "Oh, wow. Okay, good." Like, they did a really good job. Like, I had this whole

01:10:20   worry about how do you use like you move the cursor to the bottom of the screen and it like

01:10:27   disappears and suddenly you get a selection in a toolbar but you in the touch bar but you don't

01:10:32   see your cursor anymore but it's still sort of there as a ghost and you can move it around and

01:10:37   then if you move it back up it pops back out on the bottom of your display i'm like that's weird

01:10:42   how are they going to do that and when i used it i was like oh it makes perfect sense like they

01:10:45   nailed it. They really did figure out a way to do it where you never feel like suddenly your pointing

01:10:51   device has gone into a different parallel universe and nothing makes sense anymore. Like it all held

01:10:57   together and I'm impressed by the kind of care that they took with that stuff. It's a little thing

01:11:03   but I appreciate, so when you go into editing mode the buttons that are there jiggle. It's a little

01:11:10   similar to, you know, very similar and clearly drawn from the home screen

01:11:16   customization in iOS, where if you want to move your apps around in iOS, you know,

01:11:21   you hold the home button and you go into the mode and all your apps jiggle. It's a

01:11:27   good way of playing off something people are familiar with. I feel like that

01:11:33   idea, that if you're gonna put them in reorder mode, make them, you know, jiggle

01:11:37   around. But what I really like is that to me, I think it feels just slightly more of

01:11:44   a serious jiggle than the iOS jiggle. Like the iOS one is a move more or less in a goofy

01:11:51   way.

01:11:52   They kind of twist.

01:11:53   Yeah, they twist. And the Mac ones just kind of go back and forth. And now maybe part of

01:11:58   that is that it's just horizontal. But I think they could have made them twist if they wanted

01:12:02   to even if it made the corners go off the top.

01:12:06   It just feels more appropriate to the Mac

01:12:09   in a way that the Mac is a more serious platform than iOS.

01:12:14   - I do like the personality.

01:12:16   I mean, that's one of the things I said in my review

01:12:18   that you quoted.

01:12:19   I always had the moment of like,

01:12:21   if Jon links to me, what part will he quote?

01:12:24   And that one was, it's just reporting a true feeling I had,

01:12:29   which is this has more personality than I thought it would.

01:12:32   Like, it has a lot of animations.

01:12:34   I think if you just read about this feature,

01:12:37   you would not imagine that everything animates.

01:12:41   And like the touch ID sensor, when it comes on,

01:12:44   there is this arrow, and the arrow like stretches

01:12:47   like it's made of rubber as it points at the touch ID sensor

01:12:51   and it is, I mean, it's not wacky, but it is whimsical

01:12:56   in a way that it totally didn't need to be.

01:12:59   And there's just little stuff like that,

01:13:01   that I think, you know, there is personality here.

01:13:04   It isn't just this kind of gray,

01:13:06   we gave you a toolbar, enjoy.

01:13:08   It's like a little bit more enthusiastic

01:13:11   and I like that it's got personality.

01:13:13   - It's a Mac-like whimsicalness though,

01:13:16   that touch here to log in with touch ID

01:13:20   and the arrow stretching,

01:13:23   that to me feels right for the Mac

01:13:26   and it should be if they did something similar on iOS,

01:13:30   it would be more whimsical and appropriately so.

01:13:32   - Mm-hmm.

01:13:33   Yeah, I think that's right.

01:13:35   - Horace, I quoted this thing that Horace did you wrote

01:13:38   a week or two ago, where he wrote a piece about,

01:13:43   let's see if I can find it here.

01:13:45   - I love that piece.

01:13:48   - I did too, but where's Apple going with the Macintosh?

01:13:51   And an analogy about why isn't the Mac a touchscreen?

01:13:56   And I'll put the link again in the show notes

01:14:00   anybody who hasn't read it can do it. Wherefore art thou, Macintosh? But he wrote, let's see

01:14:07   if I can find the quote.

01:14:10   "It cannot take on the role of being the future." He's talking about the Mac. That

01:14:18   belongs to the touchscreen devices. "It will not morph into a touchscreen device

01:14:22   any more than a tech, a teen's parent will become cool by putting on skinny

01:14:27   genes. What it will do is become better at what it is hired to do. I'll put a link in the show notes.

01:14:34   It says I promise I'm doing it right now. I'm copying and pasting. I'm so infamous for saying

01:14:38   I'll put something in the show notes and not doing it. Here it is. Copy, paste. There it is.

01:14:43   - Very well done. It's great. I mean, I wrote a piece about the same time called like parallel

01:14:49   or perpendicular philosophies. And it's the same thing. It's like, why does Microsoft

01:14:54   insist on doing these touch screen things and everybody's like, "Oh God, I can't believe

01:14:57   Apple's not doing them." It's like, well, number one reason is Apple already has a touch screen OS,

01:15:01   so what Apple's doing is differentiating. They're saying, and this can be hard for Mac users to hear,

01:15:05   although I don't mind it, it's like the Mac is like the classic computing metaphor that Apple

01:15:11   makes, and you can't push it too far because it becomes an iPad or an iPhone then, and they've

01:15:16   already got that. Like, they don't need to do a touch screen tablet, like they have a touch screen

01:15:21   tablet already. So the Mac has to be defined by some fundamental premises and

01:15:29   Apple and again you could debate it and say no no no Microsoft's doing the right

01:15:34   thing but what Apple has decided and they've done this again again they've

01:15:37   set it publicly repeatedly is the Mac is for traditional computing with a

01:15:42   pointing device and in the case of a laptop it's very clear it's two

01:15:46   perpendicular surfaces but it's even true on the desktop. You've got your

01:15:49   keyboard tray or the bottom of your laptop and that's the control surface

01:15:53   and it's got the keys and it's got the touch bar maybe and it's got the track

01:15:56   pad and then you got the screen and this stuff happens on the screen and you

01:16:00   control it from the from the perpendicular surface that's in front of

01:16:04   you and if you would rather directly manipulate with your hands that's fine

01:16:07   that's not what a Mac is Mac's aren't for that yeah I this adult with you know

01:16:13   becoming it cool by putting on skinny jeans is the best it's the best metaphor

01:16:19   I've seen, because I didn't think of it. He did, but I love it. And to me, the way that

01:16:28   Apple has adopted some of these things, like the animation for that arrow, is exactly the same way,

01:16:33   where it's not trying to be iOS. It's not trying to be, you know, it's doing it in a Macintosh way.

01:16:39   And I have to say, personally, on the flip side, I got to spend, I spent like half an hour in a

01:16:44   Microsoft store when I was in San Francisco last month for the Apple event, and they had

01:16:48   the new Surface, I don't know what they call it, Surface Studio? Yeah, Surface Studio.

01:16:54   Had a couple of them set up and a whole bunch of apps like Photoshop and stuff and there wasn't,

01:17:01   you know, it wasn't that crowded. They're actually, I'm not making fun of them for

01:17:07   having stores that aren't crowded. There was actually a line for people to try out the VR

01:17:11   thing they had set up. So there was a thing there that was drawing a crowd of, it seemed to me like

01:17:17   like at least 10 people at a time,

01:17:18   constantly waiting to try the VR thing.

01:17:21   So there is something there that is drawing people

01:17:22   in the store, but the surface wasn't.

01:17:26   So I got to play with it.

01:17:27   And old person trying to dress like a teenager

01:17:31   is exactly, it's better than anything I could say.

01:17:34   I had other complaints about the latency

01:17:36   compared to the Apple Pencil on iPad.

01:17:39   It was low latency.

01:17:39   I mean, Microsoft definitely did some work on that,

01:17:42   but it was not like Apple Pencil.

01:17:45   But the weirdest part was the way that just exactly what you would think, like having

01:17:50   a mouse-based interface but then using touch and a pencil to do things was weird, like

01:17:55   where all of a sudden as your pencil gets near, you see a cursor on screen right beneath

01:17:58   it and it's like, "Ugh, weird."

01:18:00   I feel like I'm using—it's not that much better than one of those airport terminals

01:18:06   where you get your boarding pass and every time you touch the screen, the Windows mouse

01:18:09   cursor moves to where you touch it.

01:18:13   It just feels like old person dressing like a teenager.

01:18:16   Is exact, I can't think of anything better than that.

01:18:19   And it would just break my heart

01:18:21   to see Apple do that to the Mac.

01:18:24   - I guess the one thing that,

01:18:26   if I extended to Horace's metaphor a little bit is,

01:18:30   it is possible for something theoretically,

01:18:33   for something like Windows to have a,

01:18:35   like a chrysalis and like turn into a teenager, right?

01:18:38   I mean, they could evolve Windows

01:18:40   to the point where it is a touch interface.

01:18:42   The problem is, they've got everybody who's using Windows PCs, and they don't want to,

01:18:47   you know, they don't have a, they tried it, right?

01:18:49   They tried it with Metro and with their ARM-based stuff, and in the end, they retreated back

01:18:57   to the power of their successful Windows platform, and they've made it better, but like, they

01:19:01   have one operating system, and they can change the context, but it's one operating system,

01:19:05   and there are challenges with that.

01:19:07   I don't, you know, it's not that they're not unsolvable, they may be solvable, but it's like,

01:19:13   I'm not saying that fundamentally Microsoft is right or wrong or Apple is right or wrong,

01:19:20   but if you look at what the assets of both companies are, Microsoft has this incredibly

01:19:25   successful desktop operating system, traditional computer operating system, and they haven't done

01:19:30   anything in mobile. So what do you do to get to approach sort of like the mobile world and the

01:19:36   the touch-based world. You gotta take Windows and you gotta jam it in there. And if you're

01:19:40   Apple, you got the Mac, you got iOS, they're fine. You don't need to do that. So they're

01:19:44   not gonna do that. And so when people say, you know, one of them is right and one of

01:19:48   them is wrong, that may well be, I'm not quite sure it's that clear. I think it may

01:19:53   be a much more kind of shades of gray situation, depends on your use cases, and who knows where

01:19:57   we'll be in five or 10 years. But I would argue both companies are doing what makes

01:20:02   sense for them because you know Microsoft has the assets it has and

01:20:06   Apple is very, Apple is extremely fortunate. In fact they're basically the

01:20:11   only company in the world who has a very successful touch-based operating system

01:20:16   and a traditional computer operating system and so they don't need to jam

01:20:19   them together. They can just keep them apart and everybody like us who's like I

01:20:22   love the Mac I want to keep using the Mac, they're not gonna make a Mac that's

01:20:25   totally unrecognizable because at that point why wouldn't you just use a PC or

01:20:29   or switch and use an iPad.

01:20:31   So Apple has the luxury of doing that,

01:20:34   and it makes perfect sense that that's what they're doing.

01:20:37   - Yeah, I also will say that I found Windows 10

01:20:39   running on the Surface, what's it called again?

01:20:42   - The Studio. - Studio, Surface Studio.

01:20:45   I was very lost and confused,

01:20:49   just going between apps and navigating the system,

01:20:52   and I honestly found it confusing.

01:20:56   And part of it is just that I haven't used Windows regularly

01:20:59   in over a decade.

01:21:00   - Yeah. - But--

01:21:02   - And it's very, all my Windows skills

01:21:04   were really good up to a point,

01:21:05   and then they, Windows has evolved enough now,

01:21:07   'cause I've got Windows 10 on my iMac and Bootcamp,

01:21:09   and Windows has evolved to the point

01:21:12   where all my old Windows skills, which were pretty good,

01:21:15   are just useless now.

01:21:16   I have no idea what I'm looking at.

01:21:18   So that doesn't help matters.

01:21:20   - But I will say that I've spent time a few years ago

01:21:23   with like Windows original surfaces,

01:21:24   and I didn't find those confusing at all.

01:21:27   Now, I didn't really love the whole idea

01:21:28   where you can go into traditional Windows mouse pointer

01:21:31   mode and run your traditional Windows software,

01:21:34   and you go into this other mode, the Metro mode,

01:21:38   and it's all touch-based.

01:21:39   But I got it, because the Metro thing was clear,

01:21:42   like, oh, these are big, chunky touch targets.

01:21:45   And instead of tiled windows, they're

01:21:48   going on more of a 2D thing, and you swipe side to side.

01:21:53   And this is all new, and everything is big.

01:21:56   and big thumb-sizable touch targets.

01:21:59   Oh, and if I want to run my Microsoft Excel,

01:22:02   I switch to this other mode,

01:22:03   and it looks exactly like Excel.

01:22:05   I know exactly where I am.

01:22:06   - Yeah, plug in a mouse.

01:22:07   - Right.

01:22:08   I guess I can see why they went away from that

01:22:10   and why people rejected it,

01:22:12   but it made way more sense to me to go that way.

01:22:16   And I think part of it was, under Stanofsky,

01:22:19   they clearly wanted to,

01:22:21   'cause they had the ARM-based Surface tablets

01:22:24   that only had the Metro mode.

01:22:26   And I really feel like that's where some of them,

01:22:29   the ones who have good taste in Microsoft wanted to go,

01:22:32   like good taste in the Apple sense.

01:22:34   And it was a much, to me, a much more compelling device.

01:22:37   And I think it only failed

01:22:38   because it didn't get developer support.

01:22:40   That developers kept writing the old classic,

01:22:43   Windows Win 32 API apps.

01:22:46   - So I was at the D conference when they did that demo

01:22:49   for the first time.

01:22:50   And I remember seeing all the Metro stuff and thinking,

01:22:53   with the original Surface and thinking,

01:22:55   "Damn, that is really good.

01:22:57   "Here comes Microsoft.

01:22:58   "Everybody watch out."

01:22:59   And then they did that moment where they're like,

01:23:01   "And if you wanna run Office,"

01:23:02   instead of showing what I expected to see,

01:23:04   which was like a demo of a touch-based Office,

01:23:07   like Office or iPad is today.

01:23:09   And they were like, "Boom, now you're in the Windows desktop

01:23:13   "and you plug in a mouse and a keyboard and you have a PC."

01:23:17   And I thought, "No, no, no, no, no, no."

01:23:18   I remember, you know what?

01:23:19   I wrote a piece, you wrote a piece about it.

01:23:21   We were talking about it.

01:23:22   And it was like, "No, no, you're so close."

01:23:24   And I still believe like the right thing to do

01:23:27   was for Microsoft to say,

01:23:29   we have taken all our knowledge of Windows

01:23:31   and we have built a touch-based operating system

01:23:33   that will, you know, it's related.

01:23:35   And if Steve Ballmer wants to call it Windows something,

01:23:37   we'll call it that, but it's different.

01:23:39   And the Windows RT was like that,

01:23:41   but it was like already compromised and half-hearted.

01:23:44   Like they'd already kind of sold it out.

01:23:46   That all said, given the strength of Apple and Google

01:23:50   in mobile operating systems,

01:23:52   and what has happened with all of Microsoft's attempts to make just a mobile operating system,

01:23:56   I'm not really convinced now that even if they had done what I think would have been

01:24:01   the best product, that anybody would have bought it. Because they would have been selling,

01:24:05   they couldn't have leveraged any of their, or much of their strength, which was Windows,

01:24:10   to get people on board. So they'd be starting from scratch like they did with Windows Phone.

01:24:15   And so, you know, I think it would have been a way better product, but I feel like by the

01:24:20   the time they got to Metro and making that demo,

01:24:23   the ship had kind of sailed already.

01:24:26   - I think it was the right thing--

01:24:27   - Which is too bad, 'cause it was cool.

01:24:28   - Yeah, I think it was the right thing to do

01:24:30   from a design perspective, but it was not going to work

01:24:35   from a market perspective.

01:24:37   It just wasn't going to gain traction.

01:24:39   I don't know that there's anything they could have done

01:24:41   to make Metro better, just better in terms of

01:24:44   if we had done a better job designing it,

01:24:46   if we'd done a better job making the initial set of apps,

01:24:49   it would have succeeded.

01:24:50   I don't think it failed because it wasn't good enough.

01:24:54   I think it failed for other reasons.

01:24:56   - Yeah, yeah, and it's tough

01:24:59   'cause you look at Microsoft and, you know,

01:25:01   Microsoft's ambition was that

01:25:04   of a dominant operating system vendor,

01:25:06   but their position was that of a newcomer, essentially,

01:25:10   because, you know, Android and iOS gobbled that market up

01:25:15   very quickly and they were left kind of with

01:25:18   not a whole lot.

01:25:19   like they were there in the in the Blackberry camp down and also receiving

01:25:23   votes were these people with 5% of the market and that's tough that's a tough

01:25:26   position to be in I don't you know I love a lot of what Microsoft's doing now

01:25:31   but it's a it's still a tough position to be in because they do need to be

01:25:34   Windows and try to innovate and you know I know a lot of people especially

01:25:39   creative people people who use pen input all the time on their Mac with a with a

01:25:45   tablet and all that people who really kind of going ape over the over the

01:25:49   surface studio and I'm not one of those people so it didn't really thrill me and

01:25:56   in fact when I looked at it I thought I would much I think I would much rather

01:25:59   have a desktop iPad yeah but I will say this I that I if you draw for a living I

01:26:09   don't know if you draw comics if you are an architect or something like that I

01:26:13   I can totally see how the Surface tablet is a device for you, but I don't see any reason

01:26:18   to like that device if you're not someone who makes a living with a pen in your hand.

01:26:24   The funny thing, and this is part of the people coming back to people being grumpy with Apple

01:26:29   about various things, it's like one of the things I've seen, it's like, yeah, if you're

01:26:32   a cartoonist or a comic book artist or anybody who is using these certain kind of inputs,

01:26:38   is going to be a class of user for whom the Surface Studio is the perfect computer. And

01:26:43   you know what? A lot of those people are going to be loyal Mac users, and they're going to

01:26:47   feel torn, and they're going to feel like Apple has let them down a little bit because

01:26:51   Apple isn't providing them with that same kind of product. And all of those feelings

01:26:56   are valid, but I would also say it's also valid for Apple to say, "We're never going

01:27:00   to make a product like that." Like that is not... How big a market is that? How many

01:27:05   surface studios are going to sell right i mean it's a cool product that will be

01:27:09   perfect for a very specific group of people

01:27:11   and they should love it because you know because it's it's made for them and

01:27:15   it's brilliant for them but i'm not sure that i can see the logic

01:27:18   of apple like making their next iMac like a surface studio it just doesn't

01:27:22   make sense to me. I could see not in the very near future not within the next

01:27:26   handful of years but i could see within 10 years i could see apple having

01:27:31   a 30-inch iOS device.

01:27:33   Oh, I agree. I mean, that's the… at some point, I was talking to somebody about it,

01:27:39   and that's what I said, is it's way more likely that Apple makes a giant iPad than

01:27:43   they make a touchscreen Mac on your desk. Like, way more likely.

01:27:46   Way more likely. So much more likely that, you know… says the guy… says the guy who

01:27:53   thought Hillary Clinton was locked to win.

01:27:56   Yeah, that's right.

01:27:57   But it just--

01:27:58   I do think it's--

01:27:59   Are you the guy from Princeton who said it was a 99%?

01:28:02   Or are you Nate Silver who said it was two to one odds?

01:28:05   Because that makes the difference there.

01:28:07   Oh, I woke up loving that guy from Princeton.

01:28:10   And I woke up the next day wanting to have a talk with him.

01:28:16   He wrote a blog post.

01:28:17   And it's just kind of hilarious.

01:28:18   Because it's like, dude, you said greater than 99%

01:28:20   probability.

01:28:20   I don't think you know how probability works.

01:28:23   And that was Nate Silver.

01:28:24   People were really ragging on Nate Silver about it.

01:28:25   not to get too much into the election,

01:28:27   but it's like Nate Silver all along,

01:28:28   he got crap from so many people

01:28:30   saying Donald Trump had a chance.

01:28:32   And he's like, "Look, if we miss our numbers up,

01:28:34   "then she's gonna have a sweep.

01:28:37   "But if the polls are all off 2% down,"

01:28:40   which by less than they were off for Obama-Romney,

01:28:43   which was off by 3%,

01:28:45   if they're off in Trump's favor by 2%,

01:28:48   he's gonna win in the electoral college.

01:28:50   He said that days before the election,

01:28:52   and that's what happened. - And they were off by 2%.

01:28:55   Yeah, so it was totally within that cone of probability.

01:28:59   The final polls nationwide had her up 3%,

01:29:01   and she wound up winning the popular vote by 1%, which--

01:29:04   By 1%.

01:29:05   And it was not, please don't email me.

01:29:07   I know, I'm not arguing.

01:29:08   That means she should be president.

01:29:09   I know the rules.

01:29:10   The idea, though, is that if a candidate, especially

01:29:13   a Democrat, only wins--

01:29:14   because of the electoral college--

01:29:16   only wins the popular vote by 1%,

01:29:18   that there is a very high probability

01:29:20   that the Republican candidate will

01:29:22   win the electoral college.

01:29:23   And that is exactly what will happen.

01:29:25   Yes, and it--

01:29:26   This year.

01:29:26   In 2012, Silver said that it was actually in Obama's favor.

01:29:31   The way the states were stacking up,

01:29:32   he could have lost the popular vote by half a percent

01:29:34   or something, and he would have won the electoral college.

01:29:36   But for this election, the way it stacked up--

01:29:40   and they factored in.

01:29:41   For weeks before, you can go back and look,

01:29:43   they had an 8%, 10%, 12% chance that Trump

01:29:46   would lose the popular vote and win the electoral college.

01:29:49   And so probabilities are hard.

01:29:52   It's hard for people to understand them.

01:29:53   The New York Times had that field goal the whole time.

01:29:56   That was one of my thoughts on election night was like,

01:29:58   I guess she missed the field goal.

01:30:00   (laughing)

01:30:01   It's a 30, any NFL fan when they say her chances

01:30:04   are like making a 38 yard field goal in the NFL.

01:30:08   It's like, you know what?

01:30:08   People miss it 38 yard field goals all the time.

01:30:10   - Ask Buffalo Bills fans.

01:30:11   - Yeah, yeah, it happens.

01:30:15   - Let me take a break here and thank our next sponsor.

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01:33:18   You talked about the control strip before we move on to other things. But do you remember—I

01:33:22   mean, this is the stupidest question I'm ever going to ask. Do you remember the control

01:33:26   strip classic Mac OS?

01:33:29   Do I remember the control strip? Yeah, I actually booted up an emulator the other day to look

01:33:36   at it to just remind myself. But God, I had that on my PowerBook. I don't know if you

01:33:41   remember like CPU, Connectix, PowerBook utilities, which like added items to the control strip.

01:33:45   Oh, I loved it. Yes. Yeah, totally loved it.

01:33:48   Right? I mean, that was like the dock of its day to put in context to people who are modern

01:33:53   Mac users. Yeah.

01:33:54   It was better.

01:33:55   But to me, it was one of the things, I mean, famously, or maybe not famously because I

01:33:59   was maybe more obscure, but the first like three, four years at Daring Fireball is mostly

01:34:02   me bitching about Mac OS X in the ways that the interface is not as good as the classic

01:34:07   Mac OS.

01:34:08   And Control Strip is one of those things where it was so perfectly Mac-like.

01:34:13   Every pixel of it was perfectly of the way that things were supposed to look in that

01:34:19   OS.

01:34:20   And just everything, the close button, the little zipper thing that you would just tap

01:34:26   to make it expand and contract.

01:34:30   Just everything about it was so nice.

01:34:32   And it was so elegant.

01:34:34   And it felt so right for the Mac system-wide

01:34:36   that you just have this little thing.

01:34:38   And then eventually you could drag it around to any corner.

01:34:41   Did it have to be in a corner?

01:34:42   I think it had to be in a corner, right?

01:34:44   No, it could be anywhere along either side.

01:34:47   Anywhere along the left or right.

01:34:48   And you'd zip it open, and you'd get all these little icons.

01:34:51   And they opened it up to third parties.

01:34:53   And third parties did some really useful stuff.

01:34:57   And the Mac OS X equivalent of it

01:35:01   is all these little turd icons in the top right of our menu

01:35:04   bars.

01:35:05   The toolbar or the menu bar.

01:35:06   Yeah, the menu bar.

01:35:07   We've still got them.

01:35:08   All those little icons up there.

01:35:09   In the old Mac OS, those would all be Control Strip items.

01:35:13   And your menu bar would only have menus.

01:35:16   And then anything else would be in a Control Strip,

01:35:18   which was really nice.

01:35:21   It bothers me to no end. 15 years later that we don't we don't we had something so elegant as the

01:35:29   control strip and now we've put all these turds in our menu bars. I wonder if bartender

01:35:36   does bartender let you put their bar anywhere? I wonder about that like because bartender is

01:35:43   kind of like that where you can actually pull things out of the menu bar and put them in the

01:35:45   little bartender bar and I wonder if you can you can yeah you can I think you can move it around

01:35:51   Hmm. I should look at that. I looked at Bartender, I remember looking at it years ago, and for some reason

01:35:56   rejected it, but maybe I should take another look.

01:35:59   Yeah, I don't know. It's not, I mean, it's kind of hacky, although it's got some things going for it.

01:36:06   I use it to clean up my menu bar because there's some items that I don't need to see most of the time,

01:36:09   but I occasionally need to get to it. But it's in the ballpark, right? And the idea there is, could you imagine

01:36:14   pulling all of the stuff off the menu bar and putting it in this little bar that you dock somewhere else,

01:36:20   or you pop up somewhere else.

01:36:22   And yeah, we just, I think the answer is screen real estate

01:36:25   is that in the control strip was designed

01:36:28   to be very small when collapsed,

01:36:30   and then you'd pop it open to get to the UI

01:36:33   and it floated above everything.

01:36:35   And then you'd turn off Apple Talk

01:36:36   or do whatever you need to do,

01:36:37   or connect via PPP to the internet,

01:36:41   or dial in with your modem.

01:36:43   And then you snap it closed

01:36:45   and it just is this little tiny thing in the corner,

01:36:48   and then you're done.

01:36:49   And now we've got these huge monitors and they're just littered with menu bar items

01:36:52   at the top. But yeah, Control Strip was great. It was an unsung hero of the sort of latter-day

01:36:58   classic Mac OS. Yeah, it really was. And I'm so... I think it started on laptops too,

01:37:02   and then it was so popular they brought it to the desktop, to every computer,

01:37:07   even though it started on PowerBooks. I haven't... I wish that I'd asked while I was talking to

01:37:11   people from Apple, but I can't help but think that they named the new thing the Control Strip,

01:37:15   That it's not a coincidence that it's you know

01:37:17   Built by people who remember the old one because it's so similar in concept the way it zips open from the side

01:37:23   uh

01:37:25   I mentioned it to them. I was like, oh that's a familiar name and they're like, yeah, we knew we knew uh,

01:37:29   You know some of you guys would notice that we reused the name. Um, and you know, it's it's uh,

01:37:34   It's a cute reference. Like I think that's what they were going for was those in the know

01:37:38   You know apple's aware of all these things that it has the intellectual, you know property in the trademark four

01:37:44   and that was a name that they had and it was doing a similar job and so they used it.

01:37:48   Yeah and it just has similar character you know just the way that it animates

01:37:51   soup soup oh it's so nice. Yep.

01:37:56   Anything else on the MacBook Pros? I have one I guess broad topic about it

01:38:02   but anything you want to talk about with the new MacBook Pros?

01:38:06   I don't know I mean it's the other big thing about them well I mean we

01:38:12   We mentioned TouchBar, we mentioned Touch ID.

01:38:14   The other big thing about them is the ports.

01:38:16   And I feel sort of talked out about it

01:38:19   'cause we've been talking about it

01:38:20   since the MacBook came out a year ago

01:38:22   and almost two years ago now.

01:38:24   And certainly in the last month since the Apple event.

01:38:29   And I'm kind of over it.

01:38:30   Like it's a port transition.

01:38:32   It stinks, everybody knows it stinks.

01:38:34   Everybody buys adapters.

01:38:36   There's a period where everybody's got the adapters

01:38:38   and has old hardware and then eventually it goes away.

01:38:41   And I think USB-C and Thunderbolt 3 is like a good direction to go.

01:38:45   And the only way you get there is by going through a transition.

01:38:47   So here we are.

01:38:48   And, you know, I, I don't know if.

01:38:51   I I'm, I, I'm kind of drained of outrage for something like that, because I do

01:38:57   think it's superior in almost every way.

01:38:59   Every time I try to plug something into the back of my iMac and get the USB

01:39:03   orientation wrong and have to flip it over and peer into the port to make sure

01:39:07   that I'm doing it right, I think, well,

01:39:09   USB-C and Thunderbolt 3 solve this, this is dumb.

01:39:13   And so, you know, I get people complaining about it

01:39:18   and they're right to complain about it,

01:39:19   but at the same time, I feel like in the long run,

01:39:22   it's gonna be great and I'm gonna miss MagSafe, I will,

01:39:27   but at the same time, I think it's also cool that you can,

01:39:31   on the touch bar models,

01:39:32   you can plug in your Mac on either side.

01:39:34   - That is great, that is so great.

01:39:36   It's so many-- there are so many times where it's--

01:39:41   the worst is when you're far enough away from the power

01:39:44   where it would fit to the right but not the left.

01:39:47   It's just at the--

01:39:48   but then there's just other times

01:39:49   where you just don't want to have to drape it

01:39:51   around the outside, where it just is inelegant.

01:39:55   I mean, one case for me as an East Coaster

01:39:59   is sometimes if you're on the Acela on the East Coast

01:40:03   train, the Amtrak Acela, you can get, there's some really cool seats that have a table in between

01:40:09   them, but you're facing people on the other side. And the tables are relatively, as you might expect,

01:40:14   they're, it's not a very wide table. You know, you're pretty close, but you have enough space

01:40:19   where two people back to back can, you know, put their laptops, you know, fair, you know, easily.

01:40:26   But if you want to stretch the power around the other side, it's, you know, you can do it, but it,

01:40:31   it would be so much easier if you could always just plug it in on the side closest to the wall.

01:40:36   Yeah, yeah, so it's, again, I get people's complaints about it. Maybe I'm just a little

01:40:43   jaded because I've seen it all before. It's like, yes, everybody will complain, yes, it will be a

01:40:48   pain, yes, we will need adapters, then we'll get over it, and then in a few years we'll look back

01:40:52   and think, wow, I can't believe that we used that stuff. This stuff is so much better. I linked to

01:40:57   a couple of examples from like the four years ago MacBook Pros and they it was so uncanny how the

01:41:04   almost word for word you didn't even have to like edit out like you know one you know the name of

01:41:09   the port they would just be like you know not enough ports too thin you know they're exactly

01:41:15   word for word what people are saying about these I also believe I've written about this too but I

01:41:20   And I believe firmly that Apple's aggressive traditional,

01:41:25   not just in this case with the going all USB-C Thunderbolt 3,

01:41:30   but that they've done this so many times in the past

01:41:33   that it brings about the future where being all USB-C is fine

01:41:40   sooner than if they had stuck a couple of legacy ports

01:41:43   on the devices.

01:41:45   If they'd put an old school USB and one old Thunderbolt

01:41:50   or something like that.

01:41:52   And I firmly-- I can't prove it.

01:41:54   There is no way to prove it without the ability

01:41:57   to fork the universe.

01:42:00   But in the alternate universe, where these new MacBook Pros

01:42:03   have a USB port and a Thunderbolt port--

01:42:06   I don't know what other ports people still wish they had,

01:42:09   but--

01:42:10   or a SD card reader or something like that.

01:42:14   I really believe that two or three years ago,

01:42:17   it's less of a USB-C everywhere world.

01:42:21   - Oh, sure.

01:42:23   I mean, I think it's only a matter of degrees

01:42:26   because I think you made this point on "Daring Fireball,"

01:42:29   which is if you have legacy ports,

01:42:31   you have no motivation to switch

01:42:34   because you can just keep using your legacy ports.

01:42:35   But once you've switched

01:42:36   and you have no more of the old ports,

01:42:39   then there's no longer any point

01:42:41   in buying anything using the old ports

01:42:43   and you move to the new ports and then you move on.

01:42:45   And the longer you leave the bridge,

01:42:48   and Apple's done that in the past

01:42:49   where they've left the bridges

01:42:50   and they've done it where they've ripped the bandaid off.

01:42:52   And this time they decided to rip the bandaid off

01:42:56   and I'm okay with it.

01:42:58   In fact, the people that I have the most sympathy for

01:43:01   are probably like the photographers and videographers

01:43:04   who use that SD card slot.

01:43:06   And I totally get why it is a pain to have to go

01:43:09   from having no reader to having a reader.

01:43:12   somebody who used an 11-inch air, I didn't have a slot. I already felt that pain, but I get it.

01:43:20   I totally get it. Yeah, I get that one too. I do get it, and it speaks to how useful the built-in

01:43:26   SD slot is to serious photographers that Apple did it ever in the first place, because it's the

01:43:33   least Apple-y thing that they've done in a long time. It is. Yeah, it's like since they put S

01:43:41   video on the Macintosh TV. It's like, why is this port here?

01:43:44   Right. It has to be if it's so unred... Really, the SD card slot on Macs is the return of the

01:43:52   floppy drive. I mean, it's way, you know, thousands of times faster and thousands of

01:43:57   times more storage, but it's, you know, it's the floppy drive. It is the least Apple-y thing.

01:44:05   I know. So the fact that it's so useful is the reason they did it in the first place.

01:44:09   But the fact that they removed it is the reason why, you know, Apple was the first company to remove the floppy drive.

01:44:16   Right. Although, I mean, I just bought, um, for experimenting for like podcasting stuff, I bought

01:44:22   an SD card that does wi-fi. It's not the iFi. It's a Toshiba, I think, one. And it's pretty good.

01:44:30   You know, it's again not perfect, but I can see Apple's philosophy here, too, of saying, you know,

01:44:36   you can get a card reader, and then there are also new wireless technologies in the SD cards,

01:44:41   in the cameras. There are other ways to transfer this stuff. Or you bring a cable and attach your

01:44:48   camera direct. But I get it. I get why that's a major inconvenience, because that was their

01:44:56   storage medium of choice, and it had a reader built in, and now it's gone. I totally get it.

01:45:03   That said though, there's still a fair number. I realize SD is the most popular size, but there's

01:45:07   still a fair number of people shooting on cannons that shoot the CF card. And there's other cameras

01:45:15   that use the super micro, almost like sim card size SD card. Right, the super tiny one. Yeah.

01:45:21   And then with them, you have to bring and adapt. Usually, I think most people probably use, there's

01:45:26   SD, standard SD card size adapters that you slide it in and then you put in. So you're still,

01:45:31   You know, it wasn't an ideal world, and I feel like the world where

01:45:35   everything just works wirelessly and you can very, very quickly

01:45:39   airdrop things, equivalent of airdrop, whether it's actually official airdrop or

01:45:43   not, but just, you know, plop a thing from your standalone

01:45:46   camera to your MacBook. It's going to come quicker

01:45:48   now that the SD card is not in Macintosh's.

01:45:53   Yeah, I think that's true, but I think maybe there'll be a little longer

01:45:58   of a pain. The pain transition will be a little different there than for like USB stuff, but

01:46:03   I just think back to like, you know, the iMac throwout, serial ADB and SCSI all in one throw

01:46:09   for USB, and this is a little bit like that. I guess the last thing I want to talk about is

01:46:16   the people arguing that these aren't pro devices, that okay, it's nice enough, but it's not a pro

01:46:24   device because it's not the fastest Intel mobile chipset. It's not the one that, I don't

01:46:34   want to get into the details, but Apple wants to use the low energy RAM and by wanting to

01:46:40   use the low energy RAM, they're limited to 16 gigabytes right now. That's going to change

01:46:46   soon enough. I would bet in 2017 there will be an update to the MacBook Pros that support

01:46:51   at least 32 gigabytes of RAM.

01:46:53   I don't know if it could go to 64, but it would be at least 32.

01:46:58   But there's people who would want-- just to name one thing--

01:47:00   that they would rather have Apple build, at least

01:47:04   as an option, another level of MacBook Pro that, say,

01:47:10   has a better graphics card, higher energy,

01:47:16   that RAM that would support up to 32 or more gigabytes of RAM,

01:47:20   even if it takes more energy, and would rather have a significant hit on battery life, but

01:47:26   a performance improvement, and they'll just plug it in or get less battery life, why won't

01:47:32   Apple build that machine and let them buy it?

01:47:35   Yeah, and I get that, although I think if you're Apple, you know what the sweet spot

01:47:41   of your market is, and you know who's buying these things, and again, it sucks if you are

01:47:48   the person who's in the corner of the market that is small, but you're in it, so it's super important

01:47:55   to you. And Apple looks at it and goes, "Are we really going to solve, are we going to build one

01:48:00   reference sort of design for the MacBook Pro and it's going to cater to 2% of our market or 4% of

01:48:06   our market? Are we really going to do that?" And, you know, the customer, not everybody needs to be

01:48:12   targeted. The customer is not always right. Not everybody needs to be targeted. And that stinks

01:48:16   if you're in that area where Apple's like,

01:48:19   "Look, you're just gonna have to suffer

01:48:21   "'cause we're not gonna build this product.

01:48:22   "We would have to make major changes

01:48:24   "in order to build this product

01:48:25   "so that it would also overlap your needs."

01:48:28   So I get that.

01:48:28   I also think, though, Apple knows about the march of time

01:48:31   and the march of technology.

01:48:32   And as in so many of these Apple product designs,

01:48:35   they're kinda looking ahead.

01:48:37   And maybe some of that is that they expected more

01:48:39   from Intel than they got.

01:48:40   Maybe that's true. - I can't help

01:48:41   but think that's true a little.

01:48:42   I do. - Yeah, yeah.

01:48:44   Yeah, and I have this,

01:48:46   you talk about next year, it's like, yeah,

01:48:48   you'd think Apple would use its influence with Intel maybe

01:48:50   to say, how about a 32 gig ceiling next time, right?

01:48:55   Can you work on that?

01:48:56   'Cause we really could use that.

01:48:57   But in this same enclosure,

01:49:00   with this same power profile and all of that,

01:49:02   next year stuff is gonna be able to do way more

01:49:05   than this year stuff.

01:49:06   And the year after that,

01:49:07   'cause this model will probably be the same one

01:49:11   that we see in terms of the shape of it

01:49:13   and the touch bar and all of that.

01:49:15   This is probably also the 2018 MacBook Pro and the 2019 MacBook Pro, honestly.

01:49:19   And every year they're going to have more capabilities fitting in this small case.

01:49:23   So this is the year where it's kind of a tough ask and next year it'll be better.

01:49:28   And, and that's again, stinks if you're not in there now and you need a laptop.

01:49:32   Now I have no arguments for you.

01:49:35   Yeah, that's terrible.

01:49:36   I get it.

01:49:36   Right.

01:49:37   I think, you know, you have to think, I keep thinking about it from like a marketing

01:49:41   perspective, product marketing perspective, is that Apple has three slots for Mac books,

01:49:48   for families of Mac books. And they, you know, they have their gradients that blend between

01:49:53   them at price points, you know, where there's like $100, every $100 from like $999 up to,

01:50:00   you know, $4,000 almost, you know, there's configurations that you can buy. But fundamentally,

01:50:06   the MacBook cheap. In other words, price is your biggest concern, and that is the MacBook Air,

01:50:12   and it has been for the last few years. The entire reason the MacBook Air is still being sold

01:50:18   is to hit the $999 starting price point. Right. It's like the old plastic MacBook was back in

01:50:23   the day before it got eclipsed by the MacBook Air. You know what? I forgot about this. The last time

01:50:27   you were on the show, the last time you were on the show back in August, we were talking about

01:50:30   MacBooks speculating about what we're now talking about in hindsight. And you had said something

01:50:35   about the MacBook Pro being the best-selling Mac.

01:50:38   And yeah, and that was everybody said no no no it's the air.

01:50:42   I heard from because the price is so good. Right and we're

01:50:45   we're me and you are thinking too much about people like us.

01:50:49   And really I heard from a couple people who work in Apple retail stores and

01:50:53   they're like you just cannot even believe how many people when they

01:50:58   come in to get a new Mac it's and you can you know and they can

01:51:02   you could you know and they say because dealing with them and you know these

01:51:04   Apple, the people who work in those sorts of areas, it's very clear that these people

01:51:07   just, you know, they want to get a Mac, they're definitely, you know, you can tell they're

01:51:10   going to buy one, but they're not definitely, there's no doubt they're going to get the

01:51:14   Air. It's just a question of which one because, you know, about $100 is the most more they're

01:51:18   going to spend. And it's all about price. And I'm a Mac, I'm a MacBook Air user, right?

01:51:22   I haven't used a MacBook Pro in years. For me, I think I got, I was too busy focusing

01:51:27   on like the flagship and the one that's got the, probably the biggest profit margin. Right.

01:51:33   that's not the same as, I mean, and that's why that $999 13-inch non-retina

01:51:37   air is still there, right? Because that is that is priced to move and that's the

01:51:42   price that gets you into a Mac laptop and it's a pretty, you know what, it's a

01:51:45   pretty good system. It's pretty, it's a pretty good mix of power and price. It

01:51:48   really is, even to this day. People who are thinking of the old PC industry in

01:51:52   a way that everything, every like six to eight months, you'd, you know, just put new

01:51:55   chips and, you know, everything would get faster and you'd always be, you know,

01:51:58   swapping out. In a way that the MacBook Air is effectively unchanged and the

01:52:02   The price is unchanged, the price isn't going down.

01:52:04   They're keeping it at 999.

01:52:06   It's because people keep buying them.

01:52:08   It is a best-selling device, and they don't mind.

01:52:11   The people don't mind, it's fast enough for them.

01:52:13   So you could say that Apple is under

01:52:16   some kind of moral obligation to cut the price,

01:52:20   but it's business-wise, that doesn't make any sense.

01:52:25   It's a very popular device,

01:52:27   and it exists just to hit that price point.

01:52:29   Then there's the MacBook Pro,

01:52:30   which is, right now it's the same size.

01:52:34   There's no argument in size or weight

01:52:35   between a 13-inch MacBook Pro and a MacBook Air.

01:52:38   It is just the, if you wanna say Pro,

01:52:41   it's really, I emphasize the word nice in my review.

01:52:44   It's the MacBook nice, or the MacBook Premium,

01:52:47   if you wanna call it.

01:52:49   It is, in every single regard, it is nicer.

01:52:53   It's faster, has the retina screen,

01:52:56   and now it has this super bright retina screen.

01:52:58   And then in between is the MacBook Thin and Light,

01:53:02   which, you know, that's what now is called the MacBook.

01:53:06   10 years ago or eight years ago, it was the MacBook Air.

01:53:08   And you still pay a premium for the thinness and lightness

01:53:13   and the niceness, and it has a retina screen.

01:53:16   And it just, it's just sexy, right?

01:53:18   I mean, there's just,

01:53:19   it is like the little convertible sports car, right?

01:53:23   It is really, really, I was in a meeting,

01:53:26   I'm on this panel at Drexel University

01:53:28   that meets like once a year,

01:53:30   like alumni advisors in this thing.

01:53:33   And we had a meeting, I don't go to meetings very often.

01:53:36   We just had a meeting and there was a guy

01:53:38   who had the current MacBook.

01:53:42   And all I could think is,

01:53:43   God damn that is a nice looking laptop.

01:53:46   It's not really for me, right?

01:53:48   But it's like, and I think he's just typing emails on it.

01:53:51   And it's like, wow, that is a nice thing to carry around.

01:53:56   is there room for something else like that would be—this isn't my proposed marketing

01:54:01   name, but the MacBook Max or the MacBook—the Power MacBook Pro, or whatever you want to

01:54:09   call it. Something that trades battery life and maybe some thinness in weight for sheer

01:54:17   computing power.

01:54:19   Well, it's the equivalent—I mean, it's a slot that they haven't had for a little

01:54:23   while because if you think about the yeah the air is like the plastic MacBook and the MacBook is

01:54:28   where the air used to be MacBook Pro is still sort of where it was and in terms of 13 and 15

01:54:35   and then there's this lot that used to be like the the lunch tray right the cafeteria

01:54:39   for the 17-inch MacBook Pro and they just don't make that computer anymore but you know and and

01:54:46   I think this is a lot of the pro fear about Apple is that laptop doesn't exist and the Mac Pro

01:54:56   basically doesn't exist because it's been abandoned since it was released three years ago.

01:55:00   And so here we are, like what does this all mean? Does Apple care about that market enough to make

01:55:09   a product for it or do pros have to kind of eke out their livelihood on computers that were not

01:55:15   really made for them because that's the best that Apple wants, not can offer, wants to offer,

01:55:20   is willing to offer. And I don't know, I mean, they totally could. I'm a little surprised that

01:55:25   they didn't take the old MacBook Pro and stuff something even more powerful in there in the

01:55:31   old enclosure and just say, "Look, and we've got this thing that's got old ports and it's got the

01:55:35   latest Intel processors and the latest GPU and no touch bar and just, it's also available, you can

01:55:42   can max it out, you can load it up with stuff,

01:55:45   and if you really need it, you can take it away.

01:55:47   - I sympathize, and I'm hearing from readers and listeners,

01:55:50   and I see it, and I believe them.

01:55:52   I don't think it's like an idle threat,

01:55:54   but I'm hearing from people saying,

01:55:55   I think I have to switch back to Windows,

01:55:58   because I need to be able to buy something,

01:56:00   and it's clear Apple isn't gonna make it for me.

01:56:02   And that is the advantage of,

01:56:03   it's always been the advantage of the PC marketplace,

01:56:05   is that you, well, Apple has holes in its lineup,

01:56:10   and right now, its hole is a notebook

01:56:12   that is optimized for, let's just say,

01:56:15   well, I was gonna say power,

01:56:16   but that sounds like it might be energy.

01:56:17   Performance, sheer performance.

01:56:19   The most RAM and the fastest chips and the fastest graphics.

01:56:23   They don't have that, they don't sell it.

01:56:24   And there are PC laptops that have the fastest Intel CPUs

01:56:29   and incredibly fast, hot GPUs,

01:56:32   and they just sacrifice battery life and wait for that.

01:56:36   Apple doesn't fill that.

01:56:37   The hole in the PC market is, in my opinion, niceness.

01:56:41   there's nothing you can buy on the PC market that's

01:56:43   as nice as a MacBook Pro.

01:56:47   Obviously, that's subjective.

01:56:48   Obviously, the difference in that--

01:56:49   and it drives some people nuts--

01:56:51   is you can measure performance.

01:56:52   You can run a benchmark and come up with a number.

01:56:55   There's no benchmark for how nice the machine is

01:56:58   and how much I appreciate the new hinge when

01:57:00   I lift open the thing.

01:57:02   But I feel it in my gut, and I believe it.

01:57:05   That's what you give up.

01:57:06   It's a shame that there are people who love Mac OS X, love

01:57:10   Mac, but have that their personal needs are such that they want that machine, because

01:57:16   I don't think Apple's going to make it.

01:57:18   Right.

01:57:19   And I think, yeah, and it's so easy to come across as not having sympathy for them or

01:57:26   not caring about them, and that's not how I feel at all.

01:57:30   But if you're Apple, you have to make a calculation about, you know, first off, there's all the

01:57:37   things about what's the product.

01:57:39   If they went down this path and then realized that it was going to limit them to 16 gigs

01:57:43   of RAM, and they're like, "Well, we thought Intel would come through with something different,

01:57:47   but they didn't. Maybe that happened, or maybe they decided 16 was good enough for almost

01:57:51   all cases." What is the number of people for whom the highest end Mac laptop is simply

01:57:59   not sufficient? What is that number? What's the size of that market? And who are those

01:58:03   people? And are they influential and all that?

01:58:06   And can they wait here?

01:58:08   Yeah, and so you ask that, and yeah,

01:58:10   do they have to buy something right now,

01:58:11   or can they wait a year for something that will be,

01:58:14   you know, better, more efficient,

01:58:16   more powerful in the same space?

01:58:18   And that's, for me, that's the question.

01:58:20   Like, if Apple, I'm sure Apple has done that calculation.

01:58:24   We know that Apple has very smart product marketing

01:58:28   and research people, and they look at this stuff,

01:58:31   and they've got access to data that we don't,

01:58:32   because they are Apple.

01:58:34   And my guess is, because these are the decisions they made,

01:58:38   that they looked at that and said,

01:58:40   that market is not sufficiently large enough,

01:58:44   the market we're cutting off by making these decisions

01:58:46   is not sufficiently large enough

01:58:47   for us to not make these decisions.

01:58:49   So we're gonna do it.

01:58:50   And maybe they're right, and maybe they're wrong, right?

01:58:54   Maybe they're wrong.

01:58:55   But if they're right, it doesn't change the fact

01:58:57   that there are lots of people, potentially,

01:59:00   just not enough in that space

01:59:02   who are gonna feel like Apple has abandoned them.

01:59:05   And you know what?

01:59:06   Apple has abandoned them.

01:59:07   Apple has said, "Look, if you need 32 gigs of RAM

01:59:10   in your laptop and this kind of..."

01:59:12   You know, like, I'm in the Relay FM Slack

01:59:15   and Shahid Kamal Ahmad is in there

01:59:18   and he's a game developer.

01:59:19   And I think he's gonna buy one of these

01:59:21   'cause he's also a Mac fan.

01:59:22   But like he's doing Windows development now.

01:59:24   And he looks at this and Brianna Wu is like this too.

01:59:28   She knows about game development stuff.

01:59:29   And they're like, "You know, for 3D and VR

01:59:34   and stuff like that, this hardware is kinda

01:59:37   not good enough?"

01:59:38   And it's like, and for gaming,

01:59:40   it's certainly not good enough.

01:59:41   But Apple has made that decision for years now.

01:59:43   If like, we don't care, if it's not good enough for gaming,

01:59:45   we don't optimize for gaming.

01:59:47   So I guess what I'm saying is,

01:59:49   it could be that Apple's miscalculated here,

01:59:52   but it could also be that what we're hearing

01:59:54   is the people who are basically being told by Apple,

01:59:58   "We're not gonna make a computer that will satisfy you."

02:00:01   And Apple's not wrong to make that decision necessarily,

02:00:04   and they're definitely not wrong to be angry about it.

02:00:07   But it's not a sign that this was a misfire,

02:00:09   that some people are going to buy a PC

02:00:13   because Apple can't satisfy them.

02:00:14   - I think that it's also the case that Apple designs,

02:00:19   to eliminate, makes choices for their customers

02:00:23   because they truly believe that they know better

02:00:26   and they want to keep customers from making a mistake.

02:00:30   By which I mean, let's say you go into the Apple Store

02:00:33   and you've got the money to spend

02:00:35   and you want to buy the best MacBook Pro that you can get,

02:00:40   or the best MacBook, let's say,

02:00:42   in case they had a different name

02:00:43   like the MacBook Plus or whatever.

02:00:45   Obviously, there are some truly expert users,

02:00:49   game developers, like you said,

02:00:50   people who really do know exactly,

02:00:52   yes, I don't care if I only get five hours of battery life

02:00:55   instead of 10, I want the machine that has this power.

02:00:57   I think Apple knows, though, that there's other people

02:00:59   who would come in and say, well, if this machine is $2,500

02:01:03   and this other machine is $2,500 and thicker and heavier,

02:01:07   but look at the specs, it's got more gigahertz,

02:01:10   it's got more RAM, that's clearly the better machine,

02:01:12   I'll buy the one that's better.

02:01:14   Or maybe it's more expensive, right?

02:01:16   I don't know.

02:01:17   But whatever, if it can be mistaken as being better

02:01:20   in their mind, but it isn't for them.

02:01:23   It's gigahertz, extra gigahertz they don't need.

02:01:26   It's extra graphics that they don't need.

02:01:28   It's battery life that they would appreciate if they had it,

02:01:31   that it would be a mistake for them to walk out of that store.

02:01:35   Obviously, these MacBook Pros are not

02:01:37   the best hypothetical MacBook Pros from November 2016

02:01:41   for every single person.

02:01:43   But I think what Apple is--

02:01:46   I think it's restating what you said.

02:01:48   What Apple has tried to do is make the best machines

02:01:51   for the most people.

02:01:52   And that keeps some of those people

02:01:55   from buying the wrong, going the wrong way.

02:01:59   - Yeah, and it's not to come back to like

02:02:03   when the customer, like myths we have

02:02:05   about companies succeeding or failing

02:02:07   based on keeping their customers happy.

02:02:10   The truth is that it's not a you choose

02:02:14   to make everybody happy

02:02:15   or you choose to make some people unhappy.

02:02:17   The truth is the choices you make

02:02:19   going to make somebody unhappy in most cases, and you get to choose who you make unhappy.

02:02:25   And Apple makes their choices, and now we'll have to live with them, and we'll see quite

02:02:30   what happens.

02:02:31   But if Apple views the decisions about battery and about weight and about size and says that

02:02:40   90% of our users care about that stuff and 1% of our users care about this other thing,

02:02:47   then I can see why they make that decision, right?

02:02:50   And it doesn't make it any more bitter

02:02:54   if you're somebody who's kind of on the outside looking in

02:02:57   saying, "I'd really like more than 16 gigs of RAM

02:02:58   in my laptop, please, or a better GPU."

02:03:02   But it's an open question.

02:03:05   Pro, like you said, it means nice.

02:03:08   That's probably true.

02:03:12   And the Mac Pro, it's the same question of like,

02:03:14   Does Apple, Apple as a company right now,

02:03:19   is making decisions about what their audience is

02:03:22   for these various products, who are their customers?

02:03:25   And it may be that the Apple of five years ago

02:03:28   would be like, oh man, we gotta give a high end,

02:03:30   super high end developers and content creators

02:03:32   and people who used to use Linux and now use a Mac

02:03:35   because they get the command line.

02:03:36   We gotta get those people

02:03:37   'cause we gotta use them in the Mac.

02:03:39   You know, maybe the Apple of today is like,

02:03:40   we're not interested in those people.

02:03:42   We want a mass market of people.

02:03:45   The MacBook Pro is nice,

02:03:46   but it's not gonna be for everyone.

02:03:48   And that's their decision to make.

02:03:51   And if they wanna turn their back on certain markets,

02:03:52   it might be a good business decision.

02:03:54   And if I was in those markets, I would be pissed off.

02:03:56   I think all these things are true.

02:03:58   I don't think if people in a certain market

02:04:01   switch to Windows or Linux,

02:04:03   it means the MacBook Pro was a bad decision necessarily.

02:04:05   Because Apple will not be surprised if that happens, right?

02:04:11   not like these came out and Apple was like, what?

02:04:12   They only have 16 gigs of RAM.

02:04:14   We're shocked, right?

02:04:15   They made that decision.

02:04:16   They knew what the ramifications were gonna be.

02:04:19   And it's interesting if that's the case

02:04:23   that a bunch of people maybe that they've kind of wooed

02:04:25   over to the Mac over the last 15 years with OS X

02:04:29   are now not in their target anymore.

02:04:33   And yeah.

02:04:34   - I will say, I just think though that,

02:04:36   again, things could change.

02:04:37   The past does not always predict the future,

02:04:39   but if you look at the last 10 years of MacBook sales,

02:04:43   it has gone down a little bit in the last year,

02:04:45   but I think that's mostly been people waiting.

02:04:48   But it's Apple's priorities,

02:04:52   prioritizing thinness to an almost obsessive degree,

02:04:57   prioritizing battery life to an almost obsessive degree.

02:05:01   I come back to this many, many times,

02:05:04   that the order of your priorities matters tremendously,

02:05:07   Even if you have like two, you know,

02:05:09   the customer and the Apple have like

02:05:11   the same top four priorities, you know,

02:05:14   but they're in slightly different order.

02:05:16   It makes a tremendous difference in the resulting product.

02:05:19   And Apple's list order of priorities

02:05:22   has shown to be very successful.

02:05:24   - Yeah, and that's the thing is,

02:05:27   Apple could be making a bad decision here.

02:05:34   It's entirely possible

02:05:35   that they're making a bad decision here.

02:05:36   and we'll find out what the market says about it.

02:05:38   But they have their priorities and a lot of it is something

02:05:41   that is just sort of like quintessentially Apple.

02:05:43   And when we say they prioritize the battery,

02:05:46   I mean, I think the right thing to say there is really like,

02:05:49   they prioritize the weight and the thinness

02:05:54   and the battery comes third,

02:05:56   where the battery has to hit some kind of a metric,

02:05:59   but really no more than that because every inch,

02:06:04   every minute, every hour of battery life

02:06:07   above what they think is optimal

02:06:10   is added weight and thickness that you don't get.

02:06:14   You get enough battery to hit,

02:06:16   like with the iPad, it's whatever, 10 hours, and that's it.

02:06:19   You don't get any more battery.

02:06:21   And with the MacBook, it's a little more complicated

02:06:24   because it's battery life and power saving

02:06:27   in the operating system and all of those things,

02:06:29   but that's their priority.

02:06:32   So they're gonna put thinness and lightness

02:06:35   and battery life and power in maybe that sequence

02:06:39   where somebody else would put power first.

02:06:41   - I'm generalizing. - Go from there.

02:06:44   - To my gut feeling, in the early years

02:06:47   of that inflection point where most,

02:06:49   the most Macs sold were laptops and notebooks, I should say.

02:06:53   Apple calls them notebooks instead of laptops,

02:06:55   but notebooks instead of desktops, right?

02:06:57   There was that, and it used to be

02:06:59   because notebook computers were so phenomenally expensive

02:07:02   that it was really a luxury item,

02:07:05   just to have like the lowest end power.

02:07:08   At the inflection point

02:07:12   where they became the most popular max,

02:07:17   I felt for years it was very consistent

02:07:20   where Apple would say you could get six hours of battery life

02:07:22   and in the real world, you always got,

02:07:24   you seemed to get about three and a half or four hours.

02:07:27   But Apple would say six.

02:07:28   And it was always, it seemed to me,

02:07:32   for me flying coast to coast, five, six hour flights,

02:07:36   it never seemed to be enough to go on a full charge coast

02:07:39   to coast.

02:07:40   It was right in real use.

02:07:42   And that's before they had Wi-Fi.

02:07:45   And then there was--

02:07:47   at some point when they hit--

02:07:48   I think the Intel transition definitely

02:07:50   had something to do with it.

02:07:52   All of a sudden, the battery life did start creeping up.

02:07:55   And it seemed like that was a higher priority for Apple

02:07:59   on an annual basis, where it really was suddenly getting

02:08:02   six hours of battery life.

02:08:03   And you really could get seven hours, eight hours, 10.

02:08:07   It seems like once they hit 10, they were like, we're done.

02:08:10   And now, we'll hold that point steady.

02:08:14   And I know that the 10 isn't necessarily 10 for all tasks,

02:08:18   but 10 under their testing conditions.

02:08:21   - Yeah, they're light use 10 hours, right.

02:08:24   Because if you really are doing editing audio or video

02:08:27   or something like that, it will bleed that thing dry

02:08:31   way faster than that.

02:08:32   And that's just how it is.

02:08:34   That's not what they're shooting for.

02:08:36   - All right, let me take a break here

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02:11:44   deal. Last thing on my agenda, we've been going long, it's just this, speaking of books from Apple.

02:11:52   Yes, the lowest priced MacBook. The lowest priced MacBook from Apple is a coffee table book that

02:12:03   they announced yesterday, I think it was yesterday, but called Designed by Apple in California, and it

02:12:10   is it comes in two sizes, small and large.

02:12:13   They cost $200 and $300, respectively.

02:12:16   And it's almost entirely photographs

02:12:22   of 20 years of Apple products.

02:12:24   I don't know.

02:12:31   I have mixed feelings about it.

02:12:32   I'm not as outraged as some people seem to be.

02:12:35   I don't think it's as much of a boondoggle

02:12:37   as some people think it should be.

02:12:39   I do think though that the optics of it are a little self-indulgent.

02:12:43   Mm-hmm. No doubt. I mean, it's self-published, right?

02:12:47   Right.

02:12:48   You made the point on Daring Fireball, like, they could have used—expensive art books

02:12:54   are a thing, right? I mean, people who are used to thinking books cost $10 or $20 do

02:12:59   not know about expensive art books. You mentioned you bought some very expensive art books.

02:13:04   Stanley Kubrick, lots of books like that.

02:13:07   And there are even, there's a book called "Iconic"

02:13:10   about Mac industrial, Apple industrial design.

02:13:12   It's a hundred bucks,

02:13:13   but they've got a $250 special edition.

02:13:15   So, I mean, it's sort of a thing, but you're right.

02:13:17   It's a little surprising.

02:13:19   They published it themselves.

02:13:20   They didn't work with a partner.

02:13:22   I still feel like this is the ultimate Rorschach test

02:13:25   for people's view of where Apple is today.

02:13:28   Like, I'm not quite sure commenting on this

02:13:31   tells us anything about actually,

02:13:33   especially since they claim that they've been working on this for eight years

02:13:36   and they decided to build an archive and had to buy some of their products on eBay

02:13:41   in order to get them back because they literally didn't have them in the office.

02:13:45   So I'm not sure this says a lot about where Apple is today

02:13:48   versus a progression of their design group for the last eight years,

02:13:53   but I think it is a vessel into which everybody can pour all of their fears

02:13:58   about where Apple is going and use this as an example if they want.

02:14:02   I had a part from my write-up on it that I wrote,

02:14:06   and then I thought about, and I deleted it.

02:14:09   It's the sort of thing that I just--

02:14:11   because I can explain it on the podcast why I deleted it.

02:14:15   I feel like I can say it on a podcast with no reservations,

02:14:17   but I felt extremely uncomfortable publishing it,

02:14:19   which was something to the effect of I

02:14:21   don't have the exact words in front of me,

02:14:22   I guess because I deleted them.

02:14:25   I'll come out and say it.

02:14:27   I don't think this would have happened if Steve Jobs were

02:14:29   still in charge of Apple.

02:14:31   But I don't know Steve Jobs at all.

02:14:36   And Johnny Ive was, by all accounts, his closest colleague

02:14:40   and one of his dearest friends.

02:14:43   And so I feel like a fool saying that,

02:14:48   because I didn't know the guy and Johnny Ive knew him

02:14:51   as well probably better than anybody who worked with him.

02:14:55   And so for all I know, I've and Jobs kicked around the idea,

02:14:59   while Jobs was still alive, and I'm an idiot.

02:15:02   But it feels to me like something

02:15:05   they wouldn't have done with Steve Jobs,

02:15:07   that Apple has made a book that Steve Jobs

02:15:10   never would have published dedicated to Steve Jobs.

02:15:12   - Yeah, I mean, one of the problems with the head geography

02:15:18   of somebody like Steve Jobs,

02:15:19   where we turn him into this figure,

02:15:22   this amazing kind of icon,

02:15:26   is that he was a person and his life was a continuum, right?

02:15:31   And so I think I saw somebody make the comment

02:15:34   that I thought was really smart that said,

02:15:36   it's undoubtedly true that Steve Jobs of 1997 through 2002,

02:15:41   whatever, 2005, would not approve of this, right?

02:15:47   Like I feel like there was a pathological,

02:15:51   almost dislike of the past when Apple was trying to give up

02:15:56   get on its feet again. And I think some of that might have been innate in Steve Jobs.

02:16:01   I think some of that was also a management technique, that he felt like Apple was so

02:16:06   navel-gazing and so focused on congratulating itself on its great achievements of the past

02:16:11   that it had completely lost its way. And when he came back, he wanted to right the ship.

02:16:16   So I think it's entirely possible that in the last five years that Steve Jobs was at

02:16:22   that his feelings were different.

02:16:24   And that in talking to Johnny Ive about the idea

02:16:28   that they didn't even have an archive

02:16:29   and that that was a mistake

02:16:31   and they didn't even have some of the products they designed

02:16:34   and that when they set up,

02:16:36   I mean, you could make the same argument

02:16:37   for something like Apple University,

02:16:38   like is that too inward facing

02:16:40   or is the argument there that you want to be able

02:16:43   to document and teach your company's successes

02:16:45   and thought processes so that the culture

02:16:48   can pervade all of your employees

02:16:51   that other parts of the company can learn from what these parts of the company had to

02:16:56   experience themselves instead of having to learn it again. I mean, you could make the

02:17:00   argument that that's all of a whole and that that's as much what this is about as anything

02:17:05   else. Or you could just look at it and say, this is self-congratulatory nonsense and it's

02:17:13   a project where Johnny Ive got to hire a famous, fabulous photographer to take beauty shots

02:17:19   of all the things that he made so that he has got a souvenir when he leaves Apple. Also,

02:17:25   you made the point on during follow-up that I thought was really good, like, in another

02:17:29   time, this would either be like an Apple employee only thing, or I was thinking, or they'd

02:17:33   print a thousand copies and make them available only at the Infinite Loop company store. And

02:17:39   today's Apple's like, "Yeah, we might as well sell them everywhere." So...

02:17:44   I didn't, it didn't occur to me, I actually cheated a little bit when I put that hypothetical

02:17:47   out there, I actually heard about this from somebody

02:17:52   a while back, not super recently,

02:17:54   which is why I didn't think of it early in the morning

02:17:55   yesterday.

02:17:56   It only occurred to me at night.

02:17:57   I heard something about this project a while ago

02:18:01   from someone at Apple.

02:18:03   And what I heard then was that it was

02:18:06   being made for Apple employees.

02:18:09   That my hypothetical was at one point maybe the plan.

02:18:13   And I think in that world where Apple made this exact book

02:18:17   and made it or maybe since it's Apple,

02:18:21   sold it to Apple employees.

02:18:23   In that world, I think these books

02:18:25   would be going for over $1,000, maybe $1,500 on eBay.

02:18:32   Yep.

02:18:33   And I think I would strongly--

02:18:36   Adam for Adam, Ink for Ink, Paper for Paper,

02:18:39   the exact same book.

02:18:40   I think that if Apple made them exclusive to Apple employees,

02:18:44   they would be selling for maybe $2,000 on eBay until the market calmed down.

02:18:48   Well, sure. I think that's the argument for why you sell it,

02:18:51   why you sell it to anyone is, is why create a scarcity?

02:18:56   That means that somebody else makes an $800 profit on this thing that you made.

02:19:01   That's like selling a world series ticket for $250 face value,

02:19:06   knowing that it will immediately be resold on eBay for a thousand dollars.

02:19:09   It's like, why would you let somebody else take that money?

02:19:12   with printing books they can not print as many as they want but they can probably because of the

02:19:17   price print as many as it needs to meet demand and you know in a way that like with hamilton tickets

02:19:24   they can't make the theater bigger and even if they could make it bigger the seats wouldn't be

02:19:29   good right you can't have hamilton in uh uh mba-sized arena it's not the same experience so

02:19:37   Right, and those actors can only do seven shows a week.

02:19:40   Exactly.

02:19:40   That's all they can do.

02:19:41   Right.

02:19:42   Or eight shows a week, how much it is.

02:19:43   That's all they can do.

02:19:44   Two matinees, six-night performances,

02:19:47   and they're deep in their sleep.

02:19:48   The scale is limited very quickly.

02:19:50   And so the fact that the tickets on the secondhand market

02:19:54   are selling at exorbitant prices,

02:19:57   well, that's the way supply and demand works

02:19:59   when supply has a hard upper limit.

02:20:02   Right.

02:20:04   So the alternative is, if you're Hamilton,

02:20:06   and the alternative is you either build in a "no resellers" you know you can return to the

02:20:12   theater for your money back but you don't get to resell it or you raise the price or you just accept

02:20:18   that somebody else is going to make twice as much as you make on your product and you know apple

02:20:25   apple's so big and there's so many people who are interested in it that it totally makes sense for

02:20:30   them to say why would we make this and not let anybody who wants one get one why would we do that

02:20:36   And so the more I think about it, the more okay I am with it.

02:20:39   I still think the optics are bad because there's a lot of people who complain,

02:20:41   but I think it's better than anything else they could have done,

02:20:45   including not make the book.

02:20:47   Like, I mean, I'm going to buy one.

02:20:49   Sure.

02:20:50   Are you?

02:20:52   I don't know.

02:20:53   I don't know.

02:20:53   I might get the small one.

02:20:55   But I want one.

02:20:57   But I'm a sucker for coffee table books.

02:20:59   I am.

02:20:59   I have a weak spot for them.

02:21:01   I know.

02:21:01   I own iconic--

02:21:03   I have all those Taschen ones about Kubrick that were absolutely gut-wrenchingly expensive.

02:21:09   Yeah.

02:21:10   I'm a sucker for them.

02:21:12   It's a thing.

02:21:13   Yeah, and I think there's, yeah, I think when you put it in that context of the big

02:21:19   oversized expensive art book, it's not nearly as ridiculous unless you want to use it as

02:21:25   an example of sort of a cultural change or a systemic failure at Apple, which gets us

02:21:29   back to the Inglot test, right?

02:21:33   You can absolutely use it as a vehicle for that

02:21:35   if you want to, but I'm kind of with you.

02:21:37   I'm okay with it.

02:21:40   I think it's definitely not what Steve Jobs of 2004

02:21:45   would do, but he's gone and Johnny is there

02:21:51   and it might've been the Steve Jobs of 2009.

02:21:54   - The eight year thing is an interesting thing.

02:21:56   That came in Johnny Ive's interview with wallpaper

02:21:59   and I put it in the show notes already.

02:22:02   The eight-year quote, though, is ambiguous because what—people are taking it as evidence

02:22:07   that Jobs approved of the book, but it's not.

02:22:09   What he said started eight years ago was their collection of all old Apple equipment, right?

02:22:15   That they found, you know, like they wanted to look at some of the—I don't know, maybe,

02:22:18   who knows what it is, like maybe some of the old candy-colored IMAX, and they didn't

02:22:22   have them all.

02:22:23   So they had to—

02:22:25   But still, that goes to a point where Jobs was still around, and they were reversing

02:22:30   his policy which was don't think about the past. I mean like can you imagine that Apple didn't have

02:22:35   a Bondi Blue iMac in their possession? But for that era? Sure. It is proof that Jobs changed

02:22:40   because when Jobs first came back to Apple in 96, 97, I guess it was 97, one of the first things

02:22:45   he did is he found that they had a whole collection of all this old uh yeah and he's just like let's

02:22:51   get rid of it you know and they didn't throw it in a dumpster they gave it to it they gave it to a

02:22:55   Museum. That's my favorite Jobs quote ever. It was, "I said get it away and we sent that shit to

02:23:03   Stanford." I just love the whole thing. I love the swearing, I love the "get it away!" Like,

02:23:10   it's got cooties. It's just like, it was repellent to him that this company that was going into the

02:23:17   dumps had this whole thing that was like a monument to its greatness and so that was his reflexive

02:23:25   you know get it away and they sent it to stanford and that was it uh which brings me to and to me

02:23:32   this is the roar shark test is a sentiment i've seen several people supported on twitter uh

02:23:39   best put by genius, like, jailbreak sort of developer,

02:23:48   Stephen Troughton Smith.

02:23:49   Steve Troughton Smith.

02:23:50   Troughton Smith, yeah.

02:23:51   His quote or his take on Twitter was that it's only the last 20

02:23:55   years says a lot.

02:23:56   This is Ive's portfolio, not Apple's.

02:23:59   My impression is that his career is drawing to a close.

02:24:01   And a lot of people--

02:24:02   this isn't just because of the book.

02:24:04   I've seen people say that ever since the promotion

02:24:07   to chief design officer and naming Alan Dye and I forget the other guy's name as the hardware

02:24:16   and software design chief under Ive. Is Johnny Ive checking out and slowly fading away or

02:24:24   is he, you know, and I could see it two different ways. I honestly can see it and I don't know.

02:24:30   This is something that is sometimes knowledgeable about internal workings at Apple as I am.

02:24:39   I don't know anybody who has insight to it, and I think part of it is because Johnny

02:24:44   Ive operates in such an isolated way within the company that he doesn't really interact

02:24:49   directly with a large number of people and never did.

02:24:52   He's in a secure enclave.

02:24:54   thing I've heard, I have heard that he has lately been checked out of, not

02:25:00   checked out I guess, but not as directly involved with product design and that he

02:25:04   has been largely focused on architecture, meaning mostly the obviously the

02:25:12   Spaceship Campus and the new stores. And then maybe the other top-level executive

02:25:21   who's been working the most with Ive is Angela Arndt.

02:25:29   Right. I also wonder about the car, right? You know, for a while there the talk was

02:25:33   that they were going to make a car and they and they recalibrated that to

02:25:36   making bits of a car and I have to wonder if that was a little

02:25:39   bit of a hit for Johnny Ive because he is a car

02:25:43   guy, we know that, and perhaps one of the reasons they went

02:25:48   down the path of making their own car is that Johnny Ive was excited about

02:25:51   doing card design and it sounds like they've made the decision to back away from that too. I think the idea that i've has has um,

02:25:59   conquered all

02:26:01   All mountains there are no more lands for him to conquer and that

02:26:05   he

02:26:07   You know is easing his way out of apple is

02:26:10   It certainly seems like a a legitimate scenario. I don't like you. I don't really have any evidence

02:26:16   I've heard people say that the that people inside Apple have that impression too

02:26:20   But it's not necessarily that they've got more information than we do about this too, but it certainly feels that way like he's

02:26:26   He's either eased into a very different role or he's just sort of fading away it absolutely

02:26:32   This book does feel like the Johnny Ive era

02:26:34   Dissertation, right? No kind of thing of like here here it is. Here's the work that I did and

02:26:42   And and then you step away from that the other side of it though could be that he is

02:26:47   the

02:26:50   most influential person in the company. Mm-hmm and that

02:26:54   Not he had decreed that there would be a book and so there's a book exactly like in the way that Steve Jobs could decree

02:27:02   You know a lot of things

02:27:05   You know, we're gonna open source FaceTime, you know the night before FaceTime

02:27:09   Came out sure

02:27:11   That Johnny Ive can say we're gonna make a book and that means they're gonna make a book whether there are other people object

02:27:16   Oh, and I here's my a number one example. Can't believe it took me 30 seconds to think of it. I

02:27:21   Clearly this is what happened. I don't know this

02:27:24   Nobody has ever told me this who knows but I would bet my bottom dollar on it

02:27:28   Johnny I've said I want to make $20,000 gold Apple watch. Oh

02:27:33   Yeah, yeah

02:27:35   And I know for I do know for a fact that there were some high-level

02:27:39   executives with an Apple who thought that was nutty.

02:27:43   I never heard for a fact that it was

02:27:45   Johnny Ive himself who wanted it.

02:27:47   But I know what I think.

02:27:49   And I think it's Johnny Ive said,

02:27:51   I've always wanted to make a watch.

02:27:54   One of the great materials that watches are made out

02:27:56   of is gold, so I want to make a gold Apple watch.

02:27:58   We got to make a gold watch.

02:28:00   It's the least Apple-like product

02:28:01   that has ever been made.

02:28:03   Or at least-- I shouldn't say Apple-like,

02:28:05   but least like any other Apple product that's ever been made.

02:28:08   Right.

02:28:09   - Right, it breaks your Coca-Cola analogy.

02:28:11   - Exactly, and it is indulgent.

02:28:13   I don't know, but it makes me think,

02:28:16   I don't know that he,

02:28:17   I think that maybe what's happened, possibly.

02:28:20   I'm not saying that this is any, you know.

02:28:22   Johnny Ive might be there for the next 15, 20 years,

02:28:25   but that he has assumed a jobs-like role of,

02:28:30   gets to do whatever he wants

02:28:31   and has final say over all products,

02:28:33   but that his personality is such,

02:28:36   and it's so different than Steve Jobs'

02:28:38   that he's almost a a a

02:28:44   howard hughes like figure you know a recluse

02:28:48   and other other than appearing as a narrator

02:28:51   in the product videos i don't get well i don't get

02:28:54   you know i don't know whether that's true or whether it really is just that he

02:28:57   has stage fright and so he wants to be on video but

02:29:00   he does seem to have fallen into this role as

02:29:04   their credibility right i mean he's there

02:29:07   Those Johnny Ive videos went from,

02:29:10   we want Johnny to explain things,

02:29:12   but he's terrible on stage,

02:29:13   or he doesn't want to be on stage,

02:29:15   something like that, right?

02:29:16   And so we're gonna make these videos

02:29:18   and he's gonna narrate them.

02:29:19   But at some point that seems to,

02:29:22   especially since Steve has been gone,

02:29:24   that seems to have become instead

02:29:26   like Johnny brings the credibility.

02:29:28   Let us explain to you why what Apple does

02:29:31   is we're making all the right decisions

02:29:33   and all the steps we had to go through

02:29:35   and all the incredible processes that we now use

02:29:37   in order to make this product, right?

02:29:39   I feel like that's now his role is as this,

02:29:43   in some ways almost like an icon or a totem

02:29:46   of like the apple everybody believes is there,

02:29:50   where they have their, you know,

02:29:52   where they do their amazing design

02:29:53   and they make all these incredible decisions

02:29:55   to bring the future out of his white room into reality.

02:29:59   And he may not, I mean,

02:30:01   he may only be spiritual leadership at this point.

02:30:04   I don't know. - I firmly believe,

02:30:06   I really do like that when it comes to an aesthetic decision,

02:30:12   like, hey, should we ship Jet Black in addition

02:30:16   to regular black on these iPhone 7s?

02:30:19   Should we do-- we can do-- here's two blacks we can do.

02:30:23   The Jet Black 1 is more expensive and time consuming.

02:30:26   And if we sell it at the same price as the same memory

02:30:30   storage and the same thing, we are

02:30:32   going to take a hit on margins.

02:30:33   But look at it.

02:30:34   It's fricking beautiful.

02:30:36   Yes or no, do we do this?

02:30:38   I think the final decision on stuff like that

02:30:40   is Johnny Ives and not Tim Cook's.

02:30:42   And I'm not saying that Tim Cook is powerless in that way.

02:30:47   I think it's because Tim Cook, in his gut,

02:30:50   knows to defer to Johnny Ive.

02:30:52   - Well, I mean, this is--

02:30:56   - Technically, ultimately, it would be Tim Cook's decision

02:30:58   as the CEO, that the power resides in the CEO.

02:31:00   But that, I think, within Apple's culture,

02:31:03   Johnny Ive gets to make the product decisions in a similar way that Steve Jobs did, even

02:31:07   though his title is not CEO.

02:31:10   Like Johnny Ive wasn't going to be named CEO in a legal way and actually make it his title,

02:31:16   because it's absolutely positively, there are aspects of being CEO that he simply doesn't

02:31:22   want to do.

02:31:23   And in fact, some of those aspects like of managing people and direct...

02:31:29   actually him being promoted as chief design officer and having two lieutenants directly

02:31:34   below him actually made him less like the CEO of just the design group, that he's more

02:31:41   like chairman of the design group.

02:31:44   Yeah, he's kind of like, yeah, and you could say he's kind of the head of product in a

02:31:48   really grand scale. I'll give you an example from my life is for whatever, you know, decade

02:31:54   plus I was the editor-in-chief of Macworld. That means that if I want the cover to say

02:31:58   something and look a certain way, I get to decree that right, like Tim Cook being the

02:32:03   CEO. But, you know, I had a really good art director named Rob Schultz for many, many

02:32:09   years, and he and I would work on these cover designs, and you know, I would come up with

02:32:14   lots of wacky ideas, and some of them, he would be like, "No, that's not…" or

02:32:17   we'd get, we'd have nine sample covers, and I'd say I kind of like number three,

02:32:22   and then he and my executive editor would be like, "No, number three is not so good,

02:32:26   five is the one." I'd be like, "All right, well, you know, I'm gonna go with you." And again,

02:32:29   I could say, "Nope, damn it, it's gonna be number three," but I feel like Tim Cook maybe is that way

02:32:35   with product and design, right? That he's got people to lean on, he's got Phil Schiller to

02:32:39   work with on product and marketing, but he's got Johnny. And if Johnny says, "Gotta do the

02:32:44   jet black," like, you could say no, but are you gonna say no to Johnny Ive? Like, I wouldn't--

02:32:49   it would take a lot for me to say no to my art director, and I'm sure it would take way more

02:32:55   than that for Tim Cook to say no to Johnny Ive. And that's not that Tim Cook's powerless, and it's not

02:32:59   that Johnny Ive always makes the right decisions, but he's much more likely to be right than Tim

02:33:08   Cook, and Tim knows it about some decisions. And so that's perfectly reasonable.

02:33:12   Because he's not forward-facing, and because he's not on stage, and because he's clearly not as

02:33:18   hands-on involved with the day-to-day design of the actual products as as he used to be

02:33:24   or if he is there are these products that we that that even the typical the apple employee

02:33:30   he's maybe have a sense that he's fading away wouldn't even know because all he's doing is

02:33:34   working on the architecture of the retail stores which you know someone who works in the you know

02:33:40   you know the the hardware design group for the max you know feels like johnny is putting less

02:33:48   input into it, well, you'd have no idea because he's off somewhere else, you know, designing tables

02:33:53   for Apple stores. I'm not sure. I'm not saying I'm betting on that. I wouldn't be surprised if a year

02:33:58   from now they say, you know, you know, Johnny Ive is retiring and moving to England, you know, or,

02:34:04   and taking an, you know, chief design officer emeritus title with him, you know, like that,

02:34:09   you know, still technically some part of Apple, but, you know, he's emeritus and he's not involved

02:34:15   on a day-to-day, and I wouldn't be surprised if I would the other way, if he's as engaged as ever,

02:34:22   but on other things, moving, you know, forward, like architecture now, maybe a car five, six years

02:34:29   from now, etc. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what happens with him. I don't think anyone would,

02:34:38   I don't know, I mean, I feel like we've reached the point with Johnny Ive where, if he wants to

02:34:43   to go do other things, nobody would say that he's wrong to do so. He really, it does feel

02:34:48   like he's sort of done everything he can. On one level, he's conquered everything. And

02:34:53   also, I don't think I would feel like he's been there so long, I mean, he's been there

02:35:00   since the E-Mate, for god's sake, right? He's been there so long that I'm not sure I would

02:35:05   be like, "Oh no, what will Apple do without Johnny Ive at this point?" I'm sure some people

02:35:10   would. Apple is doomed because Johnny Ive is leaving stories, but I feel like

02:35:14   not only has he built a culture, like Steve Jobs built a culture, but

02:35:18   new people have new ideas. We've had Johnny's ideas for 20 years now.

02:35:24   It would be a big one and probably the second biggest that there ever was, but

02:35:27   it's not going to be the biggest. Apple's not going to be the same without

02:35:31   blank. So we've been through one that is so much bigger than the next

02:35:37   three combined. And again, maybe they're not the same, and they

02:35:40   be the same because if they were the same, you know, what's the Dylan lighting? That's not busy

02:35:44   changing, it's busy dying. And Steve, you know, that is, I think part of this era is the continuity

02:35:51   with Steve, like with Steve leaving, with Steve dying, I mean, he left and then he passed away,

02:35:58   but with that whole period, Apple needed to show that it was still in business and still knew what

02:36:04   it was doing. And so like presence of Johnny Ive, super important. Steady hand of Tim Cook,

02:36:09   super important. It's been a few years now, right? I mean, we're passing through that phase of

02:36:14   "reassure us that Apple's not going to totally crash and burn without Steve there." And we can

02:36:20   debate, and people will still argue that Apple completely lost it after Steve left. Fair enough,

02:36:24   whatever, we can debate that. But I feel like, on a very large scale, Johnny Ive leaving today

02:36:30   would not be the freakout that it would have been six months after Steve Jobs died.

02:36:36   Yes, I think that's exactly true. And, you know, I think this book is a very possible sign that it might happen.

02:36:42   I think the next canary in a coal mine would be an Apple event without a Johnny Ive narrated video.

02:36:50   Like if the--

02:36:51   I don't know, I feel-- sometimes I feel like that's his minimum involvement, is he may be off driving cars at a test track somewhere in the world.

02:36:59   The videos?

02:37:00   But he comes back for the videos.

02:37:01   - I'm telling you, if you and I are sitting there

02:37:03   next to each other in one of these events next year,

02:37:05   maybe next year, maybe next time we see each other

02:37:07   we'll be on the new campus.

02:37:09   All right. - New Apple Campus.

02:37:10   - And we're there in March,

02:37:11   and you're there typing away

02:37:14   and I'm scribbling in my notebook,

02:37:15   and a video comes up and it's narrated by somebody else.

02:37:19   I'm gonna look at you and you're gonna go, hmm.

02:37:23   I also have a correction to make,

02:37:27   the Dylan line, I can't believe I botched it,

02:37:29   It's he not busy being born is busy dying.

02:37:33   And you can't have a misquoted Bob Dylan lyric stand.

02:37:38   - Not within two minutes of mentioning Steve Jobs.

02:37:41   - No, if there's ever any way to haunt me,

02:37:44   if he's gonna spook me from beyond the grave,

02:37:47   it would be botching a Dylan line.

02:37:51   All right, let me thank our sponsors for the show today.

02:37:54   Backblaze, go to backblaze.com/daringfireball.

02:37:57   Harry's, go to harrys.com and remember the code talk show

02:38:02   and you'll get a really cool free trial set.

02:38:05   And Casper, the place where you go to buy mattresses,

02:38:09   casper.com/thetalkshow.

02:38:11   Jason Snell, I thank you for your time.

02:38:12   Where can people hear more Jason Snell?

02:38:14   - All right, you can get my podcast

02:38:18   about tech stuff at relay.fm.

02:38:21   I host Upgrade and Clockwise

02:38:22   and I've got a couple other podcasts over there

02:38:25   that are a little less techie, but they're over there.

02:38:26   And then my pop culture stuff is at the incomparable.com.

02:38:30   And all my writing is at Six Colors.com.

02:38:32   And I'm going to say something that you probably wouldn't do,

02:38:35   but I want to bring it up, is that SixColors.com

02:38:38   has a newfangled--

02:38:41   I don't forget when you launch it,

02:38:42   but there's a membership at a very--

02:38:45   One year ago last week.

02:38:46   And you get some nice extra stuff that I really like.

02:38:50   I don't even know how you find the time

02:38:51   to do it because you get this weekly newsletter that--

02:38:54   I don't know how you do it.

02:38:55   It's monthly newsletter.

02:38:58   Monthly.

02:38:59   I just figured I don't see some of them in my inbox.

02:39:03   So there's a monthly newsletter, and there's

02:39:05   something we started a little bit later.

02:39:06   There's a weekly podcast that's like--

02:39:08   so Dan Morin does the site with me.

02:39:10   We used to work together at Macworld.

02:39:11   And we talk for about half an hour about what's going on.

02:39:14   And that's a subscriber podcast.

02:39:16   And people seem to really like the podcast too.

02:39:18   So it sounds a little different, a little more conversational.

02:39:20   So yeah, there's some bonuses.

02:39:22   Plus, it helps support us doing the site because, you know, as you know better than anyone else,

02:39:28   making a living as an independent writer on the web these days is challenging.

02:39:32   We didn't touch on it.

02:39:33   We don't have time.

02:39:34   Everybody listening to us surely has heard and read an enormous amount of stuff this

02:39:40   week post-election about advertising and Facebook and Google and the pressures on advertisers

02:39:48   and media sites and fake news and just the way that advertising, even when the money is there,

02:39:53   can be a problematic influence. If you're bothered by that, things like direct membership support at

02:40:01   Six Colors is the way to act and to actually just do a little thing that can actually help make

02:40:08   quality. As far as I know, you don't publish fake news.

02:40:17   I try not to. I try very hard.

02:40:19   - It's a great way to do it.

02:40:20   - Although, you know, that's, yeah, I mean, let's see.

02:40:23   Let's see, maybe fake news is my future, but I hope not.

02:40:26   - And, you know, my friend Jason Kotke

02:40:28   just started a similar thing at kotke.org.

02:40:31   I signed up like five minutes after he launched it,

02:40:33   like sight unseen.

02:40:34   - He emailed me and asked me how mine went

02:40:38   and how it worked and stuff like that.

02:40:41   It was pretty funny.

02:40:41   So when he launched, I was like, oh yes,

02:40:43   because, you know, he asked,

02:40:44   'cause he's using very much the same system.

02:40:46   - And I was like, hell yeah, I'm in.

02:40:48   So anybody who likes independent media,

02:40:51   like the work that Jason's doing and that Kaki's doing,

02:40:54   and you know, go sign up.

02:40:56   Anyway, thank you so much, Jason.

02:40:58   I really appreciate it.

02:40:59   Talk to you next time. - Thanks, John.