The Talk Show

169: ‘A Murder of Eeros’ With Matthew Panzarino


00:00:00   Alright, we got to move. There's an emergency scheduled episode of the talk show. Matthew

00:00:05   Panzorino is kind enough to shuffle his schedule. We're recording on Wednesday night. We got

00:00:10   a baseball game coming up. Big important wild card game with the Giants and the Mets. I've

00:00:17   got travel plans this weekend that have been rescheduled because there's apparently a hurricane

00:00:22   that is coming towards the United States. And so we could either record a short episode

00:00:26   right now, short for the talk show or probably no episode until next week. So anybody who

00:00:32   looks at the time on this and says, "Wow, that's too short." Well, it's better than

00:00:36   nothing. And for those of you who've been begging for shorter episodes of the show,

00:00:40   here you go. It's a gift just for you.

00:00:42   You're welcome. Thank the wildcard race. I'm not a Giants fan, but my family is.

00:00:50   You gotta watch.

00:00:51   Yep. And it's a West Coast team. It's the hometown team, so you gotta watch anyway.

00:00:55   I tell people this, I'm sure you know this, because I also know you're a uniform nerd.

00:01:01   I tell people this and it blows people's minds, even baseball fans, that the Mets,

00:01:07   the Brooklyn Dodgers and the New York Giants left New York within like a year of each other.

00:01:11   I think it was like, I don't know, 1959 or 60. And it left New York, which used to

00:01:16   have two National League teams with no National League teams, and so they created the Mets

00:01:21   to fill the void left behind by both teams.

00:01:23   And because it was two teams,

00:01:25   the Mets colors are Dodger blue and Giants orange.

00:01:29   And I tell people this, and they're like,

00:01:31   no they're not, and then they go look at the Mets uniforms.

00:01:33   And they're like, oh, well that's weird.

00:01:36   And I'm like, and don't you think it's a little weird?

00:01:39   Don't you think it's a little weird

00:01:40   that those colors don't really go that well together?

00:01:42   (laughing)

00:01:44   - Yeah, that one was a crime of expediency.

00:01:48   There was no careful designer behind that one,

00:01:50   I'll think.

00:01:51   Dave: No.

00:01:52   And it's, you know, the other color for the Dodgers, or the Giants at least, is black,

00:01:57   which doesn't really—you can't really mix with anything.

00:01:59   So it was really the—you know, as long as you were going to go with this idea, which

00:02:02   was a sketchy idea, I think, in the first place.

00:02:05   But there you go.

00:02:06   There's a little baseball.

00:02:07   Ben: You know what it reminds me of?

00:02:08   And this is—it's like not the same colors, but it reminds me of the mellow yellow car

00:02:12   in Days of Thunder, because those colors are so awful.

00:02:16   It's just like it reminds me of a color scheme that would be on a NASCAR car like, you know

00:02:22   We're like a late late 90s NASCAR car, you know, they're like they're more sedate these days

00:02:27   Yeah, who do you like in a game tonight?

00:02:29   I think that you know, I think the John's will pull it out. They tend to they tend to somehow by hook or crook

00:02:35   They tend to like react better under pressure and come through and you know, I never count bum Garner out, you know

00:02:41   Bummy's just an amazing pitcher. He's a beast. So, can't count him out.

00:02:46   - Syndergaard for pitching for the Mets is one of the best pitchers in baseball.

00:02:49   You can't go wrong with him. The Mets have got to like their chances. But I think right now,

00:02:54   given the last three, four years of baseball in a big game, I don't think anybody's better in

00:02:59   Bumgarner. I mean, the record... - Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, the World Series,

00:03:04   their last World Series win was just insane, you know, when he's like, "No, just put me back in.

00:03:09   I'll do it

00:03:10   It was as close the one day one two years ago was about as close as you can get to it to a single

00:03:15   Person a one man winning the World Series for his team

00:03:19   It's it's really that's you know, there's no other way to put it. I

00:03:23   Really? Hope the Giants lose at some point though

00:03:26   Cuz I if they win the goddamn World Series again and that this every other year they've what they would have won it in

00:03:33   Yeah, every other year twelve twelve. No, no ten ten twelve fourteen sixteen

00:03:39   - Yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah, 10, 12, 14, 16, right.

00:03:42   - And then you know they're gonna finish

00:03:43   in last place next year.

00:03:44   - Yeah, exactly.

00:03:46   And they're gonna be insufferable too.

00:03:48   Like all of the fans will be insufferable.

00:03:50   I mean, look, hey, I love the Warriors,

00:03:53   I love Steph Curry, and I wish they would've won,

00:03:56   but I'm almost kinda glad they didn't win,

00:03:59   'cause if they won and the Giants won in the same year,

00:04:00   it would just be impossible.

00:04:02   It'd just be impossible.

00:04:04   - And they did take it to insufferable levels,

00:04:07   because there was a story,

00:04:08   I forget who published it, it might have been Businessweek,

00:04:11   but I don't know, it wasn't even a sports publication,

00:04:13   but somebody had a piece on the Warriors

00:04:16   while they were still months away from the playoffs

00:04:19   about how Silicon Valley geniuses have beaten the NBA

00:04:24   at its own game and created an unbeatable team.

00:04:26   And it's like, take it easy, guys.

00:04:29   - Yeah, that was a pretty remarkable piece of PR placement.

00:04:36   I was pretty staggered by that.

00:04:38   - One thing, and you're a Yankees fan too,

00:04:42   I think one thing all Yankees fans can agree on

00:04:44   is that we do not like insufferable fans

00:04:46   who gloat over championships.

00:04:49   - Right, 'cause we're so humble and salt of the earth.

00:04:52   - Exactly. - That's our calling card,

00:04:53   for sure. - Exactly.

00:04:55   Who else do you like in the baseball playoffs?

00:04:58   I gotta say, I'm gonna go with the obvious answers,

00:05:01   and it really, I'll pick first, if you don't mind.

00:05:03   I'm gonna say Cubs, and I really hate to say

00:05:07   the following two words, Red Sox.

00:05:09   - Red Sox, hmm.

00:05:12   - But then I hope the Cubs beat the Red Sox.

00:05:14   That to me would be delicious.

00:05:17   - Right, yeah.

00:05:19   Yeah, that would be.

00:05:20   I mean, the Cubs, you know, I don't know.

00:05:23   I don't know.

00:05:25   I mean, I think the Red Sox is probably my number one pick,

00:05:27   and I would really detest it at the Dodgers one,

00:05:30   but they've been playing so incredibly well.

00:05:33   aside from these last three games, which the Giants just destroyed them.

00:05:35   Yeah.

00:05:36   But yeah, I mean, I think I think we could see either one of those.

00:05:40   I think that when I watched him because I was watching to see the Vin Scully

00:05:43   telecasts and it just looked to me like the Dodgers.

00:05:46   I know they were still fighting for for, you know, home field and stuff like that.

00:05:49   There wasn't like the games didn't matter, but they had already once they'd locked up

00:05:54   that they were going to be the, you know, the middle stay.

00:05:57   We're going to catch the Cubs so they weren't going to get to play the wild card team.

00:06:00   And I feel like home field wasn't enough to really fire them up.

00:06:03   They, they played flat.

00:06:03   Yeah, I think so.

00:06:06   I mean, it was, it was kind of, you know, bittersweet too.

00:06:09   I mean, you have Vince Scoli coming in, um, you know, doing, calling those games

00:06:12   as last games in San Francisco.

00:06:14   It was so, it was so cool to see.

00:06:16   And it was just like, Hey man, you know, win one for win one for Vin, but I guess not.

00:06:20   Well, and they got it on the, the last Dodger game.

00:06:24   You know what I mean?

00:06:24   Like, I mean, the last home game for the Dodgers.

00:06:27   So the last home game for the Dodgers was one with a dramatic walk-off home run that Scully got to call. Yeah, that's true

00:06:32   So I feel like it does. Yeah, it's his park. Yeah. Yeah, they got that

00:06:36   Anyway as we speak literally whether the start of this podcast was the the last holdup was big breaking news

00:06:45   by you

00:06:48   Yeah

00:06:49   Yeah, so Samsung acquired viv which is the company

00:06:54   created by, or founded by, Doug Kittlaus, Adam Chayer, and Chris Brigham, who all worked on Siri,

00:07:01   which was acquired by Apple in 2010. So they left in 2012, well, over the years,

00:07:07   several of them left, but Doug left in 2012, founded VIV, which is a next-gen AI,

00:07:15   and then worked on that for several years and has just sold it to Samsung.

00:07:21   which is, I think, is sort of, they were either,

00:07:26   I hate to say it, I'm not gonna say that they were built

00:07:29   to be sold, but I think it is the,

00:07:32   now we can get to Google's announcements,

00:07:33   we will get to Google's announcements later in the show,

00:07:36   but I feel like these sort of AI systems,

00:07:41   assistant systems, fundamentally have to be built

00:07:45   into the devices.

00:07:47   You can't just be an app, right?

00:07:49   And as a standalone company, that's

00:07:51   what Viv would have been, is you have to launch the Viv app

00:07:55   and then do your stuff.

00:07:56   And there's some cool-- that's how Siri started, too.

00:07:59   But everybody is moving in the direction

00:08:02   of integrating these things into a system level

00:08:04   so that you can address-- whether it's

00:08:06   so you can say to the device, hey, dingus, go get me an Uber,

00:08:11   whatever the need may be, or to just have access

00:08:14   to a button like the way that the new Google Assistant works

00:08:18   with a long press on the home button

00:08:19   in the same way that Siri works, et cetera.

00:08:22   - Right.

00:08:23   Yeah, I mean, I think with Viv,

00:08:25   I talked to Doug quite a bit.

00:08:27   I interviewed him in May at our conference in New York,

00:08:32   and I had talked to him a little bit previously,

00:08:34   obviously in the run-up,

00:08:35   and kind of get the feel for what to talk about on stage.

00:08:39   And their philosophy, and he said some of this on stage too,

00:08:42   it's not like private information or anything,

00:08:44   but he said that they want to,

00:08:47   they wanted to launch the app as a sort of proof of concept,

00:08:51   but that their vision was the Viv button in every app,

00:08:55   next to every search bar, et cetera, et cetera.

00:08:58   And at the time, and I told him this,

00:09:01   that's like incredibly optimistic, right?

00:09:03   Because everybody is sort of introducing their own systems

00:09:07   of this type, specifically because they don't want

00:09:10   to be disintermediated by somebody else's system, right?

00:09:14   Apple introduced Siri for a variety of reasons,

00:09:17   but one of those reasons is you go to Google less with it.

00:09:21   You go out to some competitor's product less with it.

00:09:26   And with Apple, it's a little different equation.

00:09:29   You're slicing the pie a little different

00:09:31   'cause it doesn't necessarily make its money

00:09:32   when you do a Google search and click on an ad, right?

00:09:34   But it does compete with device makers like Samsung

00:09:39   and other folks who are trying to carve out

00:09:43   a piece of people's life, you know,

00:09:46   and lock them into a system that says,

00:09:50   look, I know so much about you.

00:09:53   I know all of these things that I need to know

00:09:56   to serve you well and to do the things

00:09:59   you want me to do with efficiency.

00:10:00   Why would you ever leave?

00:10:01   Why would you ever go?

00:10:02   You know, why do you wanna do that?

00:10:04   And I think that that is like an insurmountable

00:10:07   or will be insurmountable very, very soon

00:10:10   as far as, you know, customer lock-in

00:10:11   and like a third entrant into the system.

00:10:13   So honestly, this is a good time for them.

00:10:16   I mean, he said this is about ubiquity

00:10:18   because Samsung has 500 million devices or whatever,

00:10:21   which that's a fair statement.

00:10:23   Like if you wanna be ubiquitous, what are you gonna do?

00:10:26   Who are you gonna go to?

00:10:27   There's only four companies

00:10:28   and three of them have their own already.

00:10:29   You know what I mean?

00:10:30   - Yep.

00:10:31   And yeah, I think it was destined

00:10:35   to be acquired by somebody,

00:10:36   whether it would be Apple or Google or Amazon or Microsoft

00:10:40   who would buy them to integrate

00:10:42   with what they're already working on,

00:10:44   or someone like Samsung,

00:10:46   who is the biggest example I can think of,

00:10:48   who just had this glaring hole in their own technology

00:10:52   that they own that plays this game.

00:10:55   So I'm kind of, I don't know, I had never met the guy.

00:10:59   But just from my armchair quarterback position

00:11:02   across the continent, I think this is huge news,

00:11:05   but I'm not the least bit surprised

00:11:07   that Samsung bought them.

00:11:10   Yeah, no, not at all. I mean, I think it's definitely, if you were to have asked me a

00:11:14   couple of days ago, you know, which company would buy Viv, you know, like I said, there's

00:11:19   only a handful and I was telling this to somebody else and they were like, "Oh, I don't know,

00:11:24   if they're so far along that they couldn't have been helped by Viv, you know, by Viv's

00:11:27   team." And I think that it's true that Amazon or Google or Apple could definitely have utilized

00:11:33   Viv's technology and expertise, right? Because they've got an insane team. But at the same

00:11:39   time they've already sort of made their bed and now they have to build on top of that

00:11:43   bed and this isn't the time to be taking that bed and throwing it out and purchasing

00:11:47   a new bed, you know? And I think that that is, it's a simplistic analogy, but AI systems

00:11:53   like this that need to be trained and integrated are not like plug and play. You know, you

00:11:58   don't just kind of buy one and then insert it. AI as a concept is an additive concept,

00:12:06   So you can sort of pour it into other buckets and it will improve them.

00:12:09   But if you're looking for like a cross device, cross platform solution

00:12:14   that sort of, you know, is your brain across all of this

00:12:19   that recognizes people and their context and serves them,

00:12:22   that's not something you just buy and go click click.

00:12:25   I mean, Siri took a long time to integrate,

00:12:27   and it's still like far from as sophisticated as it could be

00:12:30   or sophisticated as it is.

00:12:33   but Apple has not yet unlocked those capabilities.

00:12:37   - Yeah, yeah.

00:12:38   And I just posted, I just linked to the article,

00:12:41   literally while we're recording.

00:12:43   But I linked to the article at TechCrunch,

00:12:46   and my quick comment is just,

00:12:48   does anyone disagree that AI assistant technology

00:12:50   is table stakes for the next decade?

00:12:53   - Yeah, thank you. - I don't know,

00:12:54   I think this is one of those rare things

00:12:56   where everybody agrees.

00:12:57   I don't know anybody who disagrees with this.

00:13:00   You know, you-- - Yeah, you got the person

00:13:01   who's like, no, that's stupid.

00:13:02   nobody should have one of those.

00:13:04   - Right, and it's just another way for Samsung

00:13:07   to sort of assert their independence from Google.

00:13:09   It's just not a good position to be in

00:13:16   for them to be completely beholden to Google

00:13:18   to provide all of that intelligence.

00:13:20   - Not at all, not at all.

00:13:21   It doesn't make any sense for them,

00:13:23   and it hasn't made sense for a while,

00:13:24   which is why they've been experimenting

00:13:26   with Tizen and other stuff.

00:13:27   But with Samsung, they have two options.

00:13:30   they can sort of try to create a mobile operating system, right?

00:13:34   Like try to do an Android, right?

00:13:36   Pull an Android and just like turn and burn

00:13:38   and make a mess of things and go as fast as they can

00:13:42   and then have to clean it all up.

00:13:43   Like honestly, Android, we joked about this Porsche analogy

00:13:47   with the whole, you know, the iPhone, like, hey,

00:13:49   you just refine this Porsche thing.

00:13:51   But there's sort of another saying about Porsche,

00:13:53   which is that they made a mistake 50 years ago

00:13:55   and have spent 50 years fixing it.

00:13:57   And that mistake was that they made a rear wheel drive car

00:14:02   with an engine in the back.

00:14:04   It's like, no, that doesn't--

00:14:06   physics.

00:14:07   Did anybody check the physics?

00:14:09   And so 9/11's are famously squirrelly and hard to drive

00:14:13   and have gotten better because they've added traction control

00:14:16   and new suspension and steering assistance

00:14:19   and better differentials and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:14:23   But it took them 50 years to get into a space

00:14:25   where you can actually take a 9/11 out

00:14:27   and drive it to the storm back and not be afraid you're

00:14:30   going to end your life.

00:14:31   And if it rains for like three seconds, it's like, done.

00:14:35   You might as well pull over.

00:14:38   But I think that that is an interesting analogy

00:14:40   when you look at Android, because Android was created out

00:14:43   of necessity.

00:14:44   It was sort of created to be one thing,

00:14:46   and then purchased, and then modified for other uses,

00:14:49   and has been essentially fixed over the intervening years.

00:14:53   patches have been placed on holes and things have been desoldered and taken out and new

00:15:01   things have been bolted on.

00:15:03   And it's in a shape where you could conceivably say, "Oh, you know, I could pick up an Android

00:15:06   phone and use it for pretty much nine-tenths of my tasks or an iPhone."

00:15:10   And those differentiating factors are really like the personalization and the customization

00:15:14   and artificial intelligence is a part of that.

00:15:17   Like does my phone recognize me and everything I have to know, I need to know.

00:15:21   So if you look at Samsung and you go,

00:15:23   should Samsung pull an Android and build an OS from scratch,

00:15:27   or should it start with the core differentiating factor,

00:15:30   which is the AI, and then sort of work outwards from there?

00:15:33   'Cause it has Android, it doesn't really need

00:15:35   to build something new.

00:15:37   Google's like, open, you can have almost all the stuff,

00:15:40   except for the Google stuff, right?

00:15:42   And that's Samsung going, well, why don't we just build

00:15:46   our own quote, unquote, Google stuff, right?

00:15:48   the stuff that allows people to go,

00:15:51   oh, I can pick up my Samsung and just ask it something,

00:15:53   or I can talk to my fridge and ask it something.

00:15:56   - Right.

00:15:57   Which is going to be, this actually works out,

00:16:02   it almost seems like we've planned this,

00:16:03   but it actually is a pretty good segue

00:16:05   into Google's event, which was yesterday,

00:16:09   as we recorded earlier this week,

00:16:10   the Made by Google event.

00:16:12   But first, since we're moving right along,

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00:19:17   My thanks to them.

00:19:20   So I said, segue, going to the Made by Google event.

00:19:24   So why should Samsung be concerned

00:19:26   about owning their own technology

00:19:27   for stuff like this?

00:19:28   Because to me, this week's Made by Google event,

00:19:32   which overall I have to say I was pretty impressed by.

00:19:34   But the truth is very obvious that Google is now

00:19:38   going to favor their own hardware over those of partners.

00:19:43   That the full experience that they're planning,

00:19:46   that they feel like they can drive through AI technology,

00:19:52   they clearly-- they said so.

00:19:54   It's not even implicit, explicit in interviews this week

00:19:57   that they see that the integrated hardware and software

00:19:59   is the way to go.

00:20:02   Imagine that.

00:20:04   Surprised no other company had ever come up with this before.

00:20:07   You know, it's remarkable that Google was first to this realization. You know, I'm

00:20:18   not going to rag on them too hard, right? Because it does—they made a bed, right?

00:20:22   And they had to lie in it. And that bed was that they had to be partner-friendly and,

00:20:31   you know, this open strategy, whatever you want to call it. It really laid out a track

00:20:36   for them, that they had to follow, and they followed it for as long as it made sense.

00:20:40   And now it doesn't make sense anymore.

00:20:42   Google is not a fool.

00:20:43   The people that are not fools, but the people that should have known or should have realized

00:20:48   are the partners.

00:20:49   You know, the companies that are like, "Oh, Google will never betray us," and they will

00:20:53   always have our interests at heart, et cetera.

00:20:55   I do think Google meant it, and I don't think it's any coincidence at all.

00:20:59   I mentioned this briefly in a short DF piece the other day, pointing out that, you know,

00:21:05   Like the 2010 in particular was the year

00:21:08   where it was where Vic and Dottra was given a keynote at IO

00:21:12   and really dug into the anti-iPhone, anti-Apple,

00:21:17   anti-Steve Jobs sort of sentiment.

00:21:21   You know, it literally said something to the effect

00:21:24   of one man, one phone, one company, one carrier.

00:21:29   We're here to stop that from dominating mobile

00:21:32   for the coming decades.

00:21:33   And really meant it.

00:21:35   I truly think, I think, Vint Gendotter meant it.

00:21:38   I think Andy Rubin was very much along on that,

00:21:42   that it was a strength of Android

00:21:45   to be Microsoft to the PC industry,

00:21:48   to not only do like reference hardware

00:21:53   and just do the software.

00:21:54   And I really think that they thought

00:21:56   that Android would lead to a Windows-like monopoly over

00:22:02   mobile.

00:22:03   Right.

00:22:05   And they still thought that in 2012, right?

00:22:08   - I think so, yeah.

00:22:09   - So they had the Galaxy Nexus, the Nexus 7 tablet,

00:22:13   that streaming device, that Nexus 6 orb,

00:22:18   I forget what they called it exactly,

00:22:21   but it was like the ball thing.

00:22:23   I don't know, that was that particular Google I/O

00:22:26   when they introduced all those things.

00:22:28   And there was some additional Glass stuff,

00:22:31   the Explorer edition of Glass

00:22:33   when that was launched and everything.

00:22:35   And that particular one, they also made a lot of really kind of, whatever you want to

00:22:43   call it, predictive or hypothetical, but not really hypothetical statements about software

00:22:51   and hardware integration and how they could only do certain things if they took control

00:22:54   of both and they would show their partners how good it could be and then they would follow

00:22:59   suit.

00:23:00   were dealing, they were kind of trying to roll out several small software updates to

00:23:05   limit fragmentation and all that stuff.

00:23:08   In 2012, I remember tweeting this because I remember the first reply was, "Do you

00:23:13   realize the stupidity of that tweet?"

00:23:16   It was really funny because nobody had replied to it at the time.

00:23:21   Everybody like favorited it, but nobody replied and then it took a year.

00:23:25   I posted it June 27th, 2012.

00:23:27   Well, what did the tweet say?

00:23:29   Well, the tweet was the hardware plus software epiphany.

00:23:33   I said Apple 1979, Microsoft 2012, because it was the Surface thing, and then Google

00:23:39   2012.

00:23:40   In other words, they're saying, "Oh, maybe the right way to do this is to do both,"

00:23:46   and to say, "Maybe you could do the other."

00:23:51   I was being a bit facetious because obviously the hardware/software join made less sense

00:23:58   for a variety of reasons that have been gone over ad nauseam by you and other folks and

00:24:02   all of us over the years, made less sense on desktop than it does on mobile, right?

00:24:07   But mobile's lack of tolerance for weirdness and its intimate nature and a lot of other

00:24:12   things, it just, Apple had the right formula for it, which is why the iPhone was such a

00:24:16   hit right off the bat.

00:24:18   And so Microsoft and Google in 2012 kind of shifted their gears and were like, "Oh, maybe

00:24:24   we should take full control over these mobile experiences because people are

00:24:28   not getting them right and letting our partners diddle around with our hardware

00:24:33   is not going to you know or our software in Microsoft's case is not going to to

00:24:38   make a device that's holistically like feels great and engenders love and

00:24:44   loyalty. Do you think it took them that long though to get to the point where

00:24:48   they have these pixels? Do you or do you think that there were further epiphanies

00:24:52   along the line? I don't know. I mean that's the joke I was making

00:24:57   about, you know, Google convincing people that they're launching their own phones

00:25:01   for the third time. Yeah. For the first time because they had, you know, the

00:25:05   Google, the Android, the One. Yeah. Yeah, and then they had the Nexus phones, of

00:25:13   course, and then this is sort of like the third time they've done this, but it

00:25:17   seems, for better or for worse, they seem more serious about it now, and I think

00:25:22   they're serious about it now because they're in a place where their

00:25:26   competitors, their real competitors, or real partners/

00:25:31   competitors are very seriously thinking about divorcing themselves, right? And

00:25:37   going like, "Hey, what do we do when Google's not the answer?" or "How do we

00:25:42   fork Android in a way that's to our advantage like Amazon

00:25:47   attempted to do. But I think that they basically look at it and say, "Well,

00:25:52   eventually it's gonna happen and somebody's gonna be good at it, so why

00:25:55   don't we just do it? Why don't we be the person that's good at it?" And that's why

00:25:59   we're getting this third attempt. Yeah. As for the phones themselves, I almost...

00:26:09   I'm one who's largely offended by rip-offs and I, you know, over the years

00:26:15   have argued with people on Twitter.

00:26:18   And I was certainly of the belief

00:26:22   that Samsung ripped off the iPhone

00:26:24   in those phones that were the subject

00:26:29   of the big case that went to court.

00:26:32   I largely agree with Apple on the merits

00:26:36   of most of their arguments there.

00:26:38   And the counterargument was always from people who either,

00:26:42   I just think that they're mentally made up

00:26:44   not to see or notice these things in the way that,

00:26:48   for a best example I can think of is the way

00:26:50   some people just don't notice the differences

00:26:52   between fonts, and so yes, they can see the difference

00:26:55   between a serif and a sans serif,

00:26:57   'cause you can say, see these little feet at the bottom?

00:26:59   That's the serifs, and they'll say, oh yeah, yeah,

00:27:01   I see that, but they don't see the difference

00:27:03   between Times and Garamond, and they don't see

00:27:06   the difference even between Futura and Helvetica,

00:27:09   let alone the subtle differences between, say,

00:27:11   Vettica and Ariel, which is an actual ripoff font.

00:27:15   It's a ripoff of--

00:27:17   So I think that there's people who just

00:27:19   don't see the differences like that in industrial design.

00:27:22   And they give arguments like, well, there's

00:27:24   only so many ways to make a round corner, round rectangular

00:27:28   piece of glass.

00:27:29   And it's like, no, that's not true.

00:27:34   Yeah.

00:27:35   Yeah, I think it's like trying to tell somebody

00:27:37   who's colorblind, like, this is lavender,

00:27:39   and they're all, no, it's not.

00:27:41   OK, never mind, because they just will never see it.

00:27:44   These Pixel phones are so clearly following

00:27:48   the design of the iPhone 6 that--

00:27:52   I mean, it's to a degree that I don't think I've ever

00:27:54   seen in any phone, any post-iPhone competing phone ever.

00:27:58   These are the biggest rip-offs of the iPhone industrial design

00:28:03   ever.

00:28:04   But it's almost so absurd that I almost salute them for--

00:28:08   it's almost like there's a certain integrity to it

00:28:10   where they're just explicitly saying, yes, we're making phones that make look like iPhones.

00:28:14   They're not, I don't even think they're quite denying it. I mean, they're even talking about it

00:28:17   in some of the articles that they've made a few choices to not make them look like iPhones.

00:28:22   But nobody, there's so much like iPhones in terms of the, the, the shape, just the basic

00:28:29   shape that it, I don't see how anybody could look at them and first thought not be, wow,

00:28:35   those look exactly like the iPhone six. Right. There's almost an integrity to the fact that they

00:28:39   or if we're going to copy Apple, we might as well copy Apple.

00:28:43   Yeah.

00:28:44   Yeah, it's like recently Instagram copied Snapchat

00:28:47   with their Stories thing.

00:28:48   And they basically said, yeah, Snapchat

00:28:51   came up with a really good idea, so this is our spin on it.

00:28:53   Which I think is like Facebook has copied a lot of features

00:28:56   from Snapchat over the years or tried to,

00:28:58   and most of those standalone apps have failed.

00:29:00   But Instagram's, even though it's under the Facebook

00:29:02   umbrella, it's led by people who will make decisions.

00:29:05   And in this case, they either made the decision

00:29:08   or convince somebody above them to allow them to say,

00:29:11   "Look, we thought it was great, so this is our spin on it."

00:29:15   And I think that's a kind of a,

00:29:16   there's a similar scenario going on here

00:29:18   where they may not explicitly say it

00:29:20   'cause Google probably has a little bit more layers

00:29:22   of interruption between somebody just coming out

00:29:24   and saying that and not.

00:29:26   But I do think that there is an element of,

00:29:31   the design is great, we're just gonna use that

00:29:34   because the design is not really all that important to us

00:29:37   in terms of appearance, right?

00:29:40   And I'm using design here in the terminology

00:29:42   of physical, industrial design, physical appearance,

00:29:46   not the holistic design, capital D,

00:29:50   where it's the way it works and looks.

00:29:51   But I think that they said, hey,

00:29:53   there's certain choices we need to make,

00:29:55   but one of those choices is not to be wildly different,

00:29:58   to wildly differentiate the look and feel.

00:30:00   And the way I feel about it is,

00:30:03   the name of the phone is perfect,

00:30:05   it's called pixel, which obviously to anybody in the computer world, or honestly most people,

00:30:13   probably know at least what a pixel is. Because nine times out of ten when you tell anybody

00:30:17   about a phone or something, "Oh, how many pixels does it have?" They don't really know,

00:30:22   or "How many pixels does that camera have?" They don't really know what it means and how

00:30:25   that translates from a capture element to an actual pixel on a screen. Well, pixel is

00:30:29   a really broad recognizable term. So A1, you know, number one, broad recognizable term.

00:30:36   So that's great, right? That's a good choice. And second is, it emphasizes what's on the

00:30:42   screen, right? The software. And to Google, the hardware is a vehicle for their AI and

00:30:49   whatever other software they want to launch on it. And to Apple, the hardware is the thing

00:30:53   and then people build to suit the hardware. Like that's the way that they, that's their

00:30:57   philosophy, their entire developer ecosystem builds to the precise specifications available

00:31:02   on the devices.

00:31:03   And that's what leads to theoretically great experiences.

00:31:06   But Google is basically like, "Hey, we can provide all the experiences people need or

00:31:11   that we really care about."

00:31:14   And so the Pixel, calling it Pixel, telegraphs that.

00:31:17   It says, "It's about what's on the screen.

00:31:18   It's not about what's around the screen.

00:31:22   Don't worry too much about that.

00:31:23   We're gonna give you a design that feels familiar,

00:31:26   that you feel like, oh, that's a phone,

00:31:28   I can use that thing, you know?

00:31:30   And that's it, they're good, they're golden.

00:31:31   The rest of it is on the screen.

00:31:33   - Here's my biggest question.

00:31:36   It's a win for them, honestly.

00:31:40   It doesn't have a camera bump,

00:31:42   and that was one of the first things I noticed.

00:31:44   One of the things that they copied, though,

00:31:46   is they put the camera in the same corner

00:31:48   that the iPhone has always put the camera.

00:31:50   And that's been one of the weird things

00:31:52   that I've always wondered about, that here we are,

00:31:54   nine years with 10 generations of the iPhone,

00:31:57   and every single one has had the camera in the top left

00:32:01   as you look at the back face of the camera.

00:32:04   And almost all competing phones put the camera in the center,

00:32:09   more or less where the Apple logo goes on an iPhone,

00:32:12   and where the pixels put their fingerprint sensor.

00:32:16   Most other phones, though, put the cameras there,

00:32:18   whether there's a bump, whether there's no bump.

00:32:21   I've never quite understood why since,

00:32:24   just not even making the argument

00:32:25   of why the iPhone's placement is better,

00:32:27   but given that the iPhone--

00:32:28   - Oh, it is, for sure.

00:32:29   - I think so too, 'cause I think it's more likely

00:32:32   to keep your finger out of the position.

00:32:34   - Yeah, most people are right-handed,

00:32:35   and you bring up the phone,

00:32:36   and most people are gonna take it in horizontal,

00:32:38   and so you bring up the phone and turn it horizontal,

00:32:40   and you tap it with your right thumb,

00:32:42   and your other finger is in front of it, holding it stable,

00:32:45   and then that way you don't have a finger

00:32:46   in front of the lens.

00:32:47   It makes total damn sense.

00:32:48   It's like the right place to put the camera.

00:32:50   And Android phones, I always have my damn finger

00:32:52   in front of the camera and I have to remove it.

00:32:53   - I do too, and I don't know if it's because I have

00:32:57   finger, you know, handheld habits that coincide with it

00:33:00   or not.

00:33:01   I'm looking at my Moto X right here,

00:33:05   and I just remember I've often, I'd hold it up

00:33:08   and my finger's right over the camera.

00:33:09   - Yeah.

00:33:10   Well, the Nexus 5 is in the center,

00:33:12   so they sort of like, hey, we'll be agnostic,

00:33:14   you know, left hand, right hand.

00:33:15   - Here was my first question though.

00:33:17   As soon as I saw the design, and this is before,

00:33:19   you know, before the event, because it leaked,

00:33:21   and I was like, well, there's no camera bump,

00:33:22   so how are they not having a camera bump?

00:33:24   Is it because they made the phone thicker?

00:33:27   Or is it that they've got,

00:33:29   somehow they've got superior optics?

00:33:31   So the iPhone 7 is,

00:33:36   have it right here in front of me,

00:33:39   7.1 millimeters thick,

00:33:42   and the 7 Plus is 7.3 millimeters thick,

00:33:45   so 2/10 of one millimeter thicker for the Plus

00:33:48   than the regular 7.

00:33:50   And then there's a big bump.

00:33:52   The pixels dimensions on Google's tech specs page

00:33:56   are for thickness--

00:33:59   I don't understand what this means-- 7.3 and then a tilde

00:34:04   8.5 millimeters.

00:34:06   And that's for both phones, the Pixel and the Pixel XL.

00:34:08   It's 8.5 at the top, because there's a plate of glass

00:34:11   or whatever that is over the top.

00:34:13   I think so.

00:34:15   I haven't seen anybody answer this, though.

00:34:16   that they're slightly wedge-shaped, sort of like,

00:34:20   you know, not quite to the narrow,

00:34:23   to like a blade, like a MacBook Air,

00:34:25   but that they're not, when you look at it in profile

00:34:29   from the side, it doesn't look like the bottom

00:34:32   is as thick as the top.

00:34:33   It's thinner at the bottom than it is at the top.

00:34:35   So it's sort of like they slope the whole phone

00:34:38   up to where it would be a bump.

00:34:40   - Right, yes, I totally agree.

00:34:43   I think that's what happened there.

00:34:44   I actually didn't go to the event,

00:34:46   so I didn't handle them myself, but I did ask somebody,

00:34:49   and I believe that's what they told me.

00:34:51   There was that sort of like piece of material at the top.

00:34:55   I hesitate to just say glass

00:34:57   'cause I don't wanna be wrong.

00:34:58   - I don't think that it's just,

00:34:59   but it doesn't like jump in thickness.

00:35:01   I think it is, it's like a gentle wedge shape.

00:35:04   But, and their product photography--

00:35:06   - There's a bevel though.

00:35:07   - Their product photography

00:35:08   seems to purposefully obscure that.

00:35:11   I looked at product photography for a while

00:35:16   before I even thought to suspect that.

00:35:18   - Yeah, I actually went in our back end here

00:35:23   'cause our guys were at the event.

00:35:25   We generally, when we shoot pictures,

00:35:27   we dump 'em all into the back end

00:35:28   so people that are utilizing them

00:35:31   or writing articles about them can pull 'em up.

00:35:34   And so let me, I'm pulling one up here.

00:35:37   Yeah, and he's holding it at an angle

00:35:39   and you can clearly see that that part at the top is raised.

00:35:42   Now whether it's like a wedge from two thirds up the phone,

00:35:46   it starts out at like eight millimeters

00:35:49   and then it goes up to 8.3 at the very top, I don't know.

00:35:51   But it's definitely like raised at the top.

00:35:55   The top third of the phone is raised

00:35:56   off of the rest of the phone.

00:35:58   So I think they're hiding a lot of the bump in there.

00:36:00   And if you look at the camera, it's interesting

00:36:02   because there's actually a sort of slight indention.

00:36:06   It slopes inwards at the camera.

00:36:09   - Yeah.

00:36:10   - So I don't know, I think it's a combination of things.

00:36:12   I think they found out, they figured out a way

00:36:14   to make it as thin as possible,

00:36:15   and then they also sloped it up a little bit.

00:36:18   But yeah, it's a clever way to get rid of the bump, for sure.

00:36:21   - Yeah, and it will, it certainly would allow it

00:36:23   to still sit flat on the table with no wobble.

00:36:27   So I have to say, I mean, I'm not willing to say

00:36:29   that it's a complete win without seeing it myself.

00:36:32   I mean, I think I'm gonna buy one,

00:36:33   'cause I haven't bought an Android phone in a while,

00:36:36   and it seems like this would be the one to buy.

00:36:38   - Yeah, I think I'm gonna upgrade for my 5X too, yeah.

00:36:41   So I don't know, but it's, you know,

00:36:43   I still hate the bumps.

00:36:44   I like the seven bump better, I've said this before,

00:36:46   I like the seven bump better than the six and six S bump

00:36:49   because to me it's more of an honest bump.

00:36:51   It's like, yeah, man, we've got it,

00:36:53   yeah, we definitely have a bump.

00:36:54   And you see it in a product photography.

00:36:56   - We put this badass camera in here and yeah.

00:36:58   - There were entire articles two years ago

00:37:00   about how Apple's product photography hid the bump

00:37:04   and they had profile pictures where in theory

00:37:07   you think you would have been able to see the bump

00:37:09   and you didn't, and then there were defenses

00:37:12   where people were making their own photos,

00:37:14   and they're like, "If you hold it just right,

00:37:15   "you can take a real photo and not show the bump

00:37:18   "by just the exact, shooting it from the opposite side

00:37:22   "and putting it at the exact right angle."

00:37:25   And I can just hold up my phone to my eye

00:37:27   and hold it sideways, and if I hold it just right,

00:37:29   it looks like it's in perfect profile

00:37:31   and I don't see the bump.

00:37:32   But doing it was dishonest,

00:37:33   whereas now Apple's product photography highlights the bump.

00:37:37   they've got like a beautiful reflection

00:37:39   off the jet black aluminum.

00:37:42   - Right, and the reflection's not an accident.

00:37:45   - Right.

00:37:46   So I'm not willing, but overall,

00:37:49   I think not having a bump, you've gotta say,

00:37:52   otherwise it doesn't feel too thick in your hand, et cetera.

00:37:56   This could be a win for the Pixel over the iPhone.

00:37:59   - Yeah, I mean, hey, who wants, nobody wants a bump.

00:38:02   That bump probably just drives Johnny insane, right?

00:38:06   But it's, you know, you gotta do what you gotta do.

00:38:09   - I think having an asymmetrical, overall,

00:38:11   the whole phone being asymmetric

00:38:13   would drive him nuts too, though.

00:38:15   - Yeah, yeah, that's true.

00:38:17   That's true. - Like, I can still see why,

00:38:18   I could, I wouldn't be, you know,

00:38:21   I'd almost be surprised if Apple didn't consider

00:38:23   a wedge-shaped design to accommodate the,

00:38:26   you know, the necessary thickness of the camera unit.

00:38:31   And I could see why Apple rejected it.

00:38:33   - God, remember that wedge-shaped design that,

00:38:36   Who said that was gonna have a,

00:38:37   was it Josh Polsky or somebody?

00:38:39   - Yeah, I think so.

00:38:40   - Maybe This Is My Next or something

00:38:41   that they said was gonna be like a wedge.

00:38:43   So maybe they were considering a wedge at some point.

00:38:45   - Right, but maybe that wasn't totally

00:38:47   pulled out of thin air.

00:38:49   - Right.

00:38:50   - Maybe that was an, I wouldn't be surprised at all.

00:38:51   But I can also see why they got rid of,

00:38:53   didn't go that way.

00:38:55   - Sure.

00:38:56   - What else about these phones?

00:38:59   They did move, they moved the volume to the other side.

00:39:03   - Yes.

00:39:05   - Which is where a lot of Android phones

00:39:06   had the volume. Right, right. Yeah, I mean, I like them. I mean, I think that they're

00:39:12   a little bit awkward. The mix of materials is not really my bag, you know, like the two-tone

00:39:17   thing. It just seems a little bit contrived to me, and I don't know why they have antenna

00:39:25   lines and a huge window that could theoretically be transparent to signal, but that's, you

00:39:34   I'm not a phone designer so there's probably like very logical reasons and all of that stuff.

00:39:38   Right and it's like the iPhone 4 and 4s had breaks, you know, the antenna was the frame

00:39:46   around the sides and then there famously there were breaks in there for different antennas to

00:39:51   not be touching each other but then the back was made out of glass and therefore signals get

00:39:56   get through. I don't quite get why they've got a one-third glass back and

00:40:00   two-thirds aluminum and antenna lines. I could see why they have glass if they

00:40:06   wanted to have the antenna signals get through and I could see having antenna

00:40:09   lines for the reasons that the iPhone 6 and 7 have antenna lines but I don't see

00:40:13   both. Yeah. It'll be curious. It's a very technical design, right? Yeah. Like it

00:40:20   screams like this is very technical, we have lots of things going on and I think

00:40:24   I think that's an interesting play,

00:40:27   and they probably did it intentionally, right?

00:40:30   'Cause this is the high, high end of the Android market,

00:40:33   which is something we haven't talked about yet,

00:40:34   but pricing-wise, this is an expensive phone, right?

00:40:38   This is not like the Nexus 5X,

00:40:40   "Hey, get one for 250 bucks, flat out,"

00:40:42   you know, or whatever, on sale or with a coupon.

00:40:45   You know, these are expensive $650 to $800,

00:40:49   $950 phones or whatever.

00:40:51   - Yeah, they're very comparably priced

00:40:53   to the iPhone 7.

00:40:54   It's 120 more for the bigger display

00:41:01   instead of 100 more, and they have two storage tiers,

00:41:04   32 and 128, and the 128 I think is,

00:41:08   I think for both might be exactly the same price

00:41:11   as the same iPhones.

00:41:12   - Right.

00:41:14   So I guess whatever math Apple was doing

00:41:18   wasn't just about gouging.

00:41:20   - No, I don't think so.

00:41:22   The colors are called Very Silver, Quite Black, and Limited Edition Really Blue, which is already out of stock.

00:41:31   I almost bought the blue. I literally pulled it up and I was pre-ordering it.

00:41:36   And then I decided to just kind of wait and see what the first impressions were.

00:41:40   Did you order one already?

00:41:42   No, I haven't ordered. I'm going to, but I don't have it.

00:41:45   I am too, but I'd probably just buy black. I don't want to wait.

00:41:48   Although I'm curious why blue is limited edition.

00:41:52   Is it just artificial scarcity or is it because--

00:41:54   - It's probably harder to make.

00:41:55   I mean those finishes are tougher.

00:41:57   You know, I mean like even the, look at the jet black.

00:41:59   Right, it's like, you know, some just nine step process

00:42:02   that they have to anodize it and then they have to clear

00:42:04   coat it and polish it and clear coat it and polish it

00:42:06   and clear coat it and polish it.

00:42:07   It just takes longer.

00:42:08   I would guess they just produced a lot less of them

00:42:09   because of that.

00:42:11   - It looks like most of their product photography

00:42:14   is the very silver.

00:42:16   They skipped gold, so there's no gold.

00:42:18   They can't accuse them of ripping off

00:42:20   or following Apple in that regard.

00:42:22   I'm kind of impressed if the black looks as good as it does

00:42:26   on the aluminum, that I'm kind of impressed

00:42:28   that they've already caught up.

00:42:30   Who knows how much of that expertise Google brought,

00:42:32   and who knows how much they're leaning on HTC.

00:42:35   But famously, the reason that we've had space gray

00:42:38   for a couple of years is because black proved so hard,

00:42:42   even for Apple, whose unparalleled expertise in materials

00:42:47   couldn't even get right.

00:42:49   And here they're coming out of the box

00:42:51   with a black anodized aluminum.

00:42:53   - Yeah, yeah, like I said, I haven't seen it in person,

00:42:56   so I don't know how black the black is,

00:42:59   but it looks pretty black.

00:43:00   I mean, you look at the black top section,

00:43:03   and it is lighter than that, but it's not like gray.

00:43:06   Like the previous iPhones were.

00:43:09   - Yeah, it's, I don't know.

00:43:11   There's some things that look weird about it to me,

00:43:13   but it certainly is the best looking

00:43:15   or Android phone I've seen in a while, to my eyes.

00:43:19   - Yeah, a lot of them have too many notes

00:43:21   'cause they gotta differentiate, right?

00:43:23   - Right. - You're in this

00:43:24   crowded market with a bunch of competitors

00:43:25   and you're sitting on this Verizon shelf,

00:43:28   like people walk into the Verizon store

00:43:29   and they're like, "Oh, that one looks cool."

00:43:32   That's what they're playing to, that audience.

00:43:35   And Google's not.

00:43:36   - This shot, I'll send it to you.

00:43:39   This shot seems to me to really emphasize--

00:43:42   I think this is where you can kind of see the wedge shape.

00:43:47   I don't know.

00:43:49   AMOLED display instead of LCD, but just about everybody

00:43:52   other than Apple has gone to AMOLED.

00:43:55   And there's rumors that Apple is going to go to AMOLED eventually

00:43:59   sooner than later.

00:43:59   I don't know.

00:44:01   It seems to me like--

00:44:02   I mean, AMOLED still has advantages on blacks.

00:44:04   And I think they're inherent to the technology,

00:44:06   that black on AMOLED is going to be a darker black,

00:44:10   a deeper black, whatever you want to describe it,

00:44:12   than LCD can ever do.

00:44:14   But it seems to me like both technologies

00:44:17   are sort of approaching each other.

00:44:19   It take, you know, both are catching up

00:44:21   to the strengths and weakness, or strengths of the others,

00:44:23   and getting rid of their weaknesses.

00:44:25   Like the days when AMOLED couldn't reproduce color

00:44:28   faithfully, I think are probably over.

00:44:31   - Yeah, I mean, that was always the,

00:44:35   I mean, AMOLED was a new technology for a long time

00:44:37   and it was harder to make and everything else,

00:44:39   but it's starting to become much more widely adopted.

00:44:42   - I remember there was, in particular,

00:44:45   the Flickr logo, which had the magenta.

00:44:48   You could damage your retina,

00:44:50   but just by looking at the Flickr logo.

00:44:52   - That's right.

00:44:53   Yeah, and when you vanish to AMOLED overall

00:44:55   is that the colors are more neutral, right?

00:44:57   And LCDs always have a sort of,

00:45:00   they fight against the blue cast, you know?

00:45:03   And that moving to AMOLED sort of fixes that

00:45:07   without having to do software trickery on top of it

00:45:12   to filter that.

00:45:12   But I don't know.

00:45:14   I think LCD and plane switching stuff,

00:45:16   it just was so good because it didn't burn in,

00:45:20   and it was really easy to make in pretty decent quality.

00:45:25   But yeah, I think everything's gonna be AMOLED pretty soon

00:45:28   because of the better color rendition.

00:45:30   - I think it just comes down to the scale.

00:45:33   And you have to remember that for Apple to switch,

00:45:36   they're switching like 70 million displays

00:45:38   in the first quarter.

00:45:40   So it's not surprising to me at all

00:45:43   that they might be late to that game just because.

00:45:48   There's no way they were going to shift in the early years

00:45:51   when the color of reproduction was so bad.

00:45:53   And even now, if they might want to,

00:45:55   they have to wait not just until you

00:45:57   can make one that's up to their qualities for--

00:45:59   just how good does it look, really,

00:46:01   which is ultimately what Apple cares about.

00:46:03   It's not really what you can measure in any kind of test.

00:46:06   It's just look, just look at it with your eyes.

00:46:08   Does it look good?

00:46:09   But they've gotta be able to do it

00:46:11   where they can make it in iPhone quantities.

00:46:13   Let me take a break.

00:46:14   I wanna talk camera on the Pixel.

00:46:19   - Right.

00:46:21   - But let me take a break and thank our second sponsor

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00:46:39   You can't access it on your phone,

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00:47:12   not for 1997.

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00:47:23   They've done a lot of work in the last year or two

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00:48:06   My thanks to them.

00:48:06   I wanted to talk about this.

00:48:11   So Google's bragging on the camera.

00:48:15   It might be a great camera.

00:48:16   But they're banking it all on the scores from DxOMark.

00:48:22   And I didn't have time before the show to look this up.

00:48:25   But there was something else recently,

00:48:26   like within the last year or so, where DxOMark came out

00:48:29   with something about Apple's image quality.

00:48:31   And they have this test that comes out.

00:48:35   I don't know.

00:48:36   They run these tests, and then they get a number from one

00:48:39   to 100.

00:48:40   And that's it.

00:48:41   So the Pixel phone--

00:48:43   How good's the picture of your kids?

00:48:45   Oh, it's 86.

00:48:46   Yeah.

00:48:46   It's an 86 picture.

00:48:48   How good is this camera?

00:48:49   It's pretty good, but not so good.

00:48:50   It's an 89.

00:48:51   And this, to me, sounds like bullshit.

00:48:56   And I know some people will say, well,

00:48:58   that's because you're a fan of the iPhone,

00:49:00   and you've got an iPhone.

00:49:01   And so if Apple had the higher score,

00:49:04   you'd be bragging about that.

00:49:07   I don't, because I don't understand how you do this.

00:49:10   And it's not like the iPhone is that far behind.

00:49:12   The iPhone 7 is at 86 on their scale.

00:49:15   I don't know if that's for both the iPhone 7 Plus and the 7,

00:49:20   or just the iPhone 7.

00:49:23   There's a couple of Android phones that are at 87 and 88,

00:49:27   including the Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge, which

00:49:29   I've heard is is a and I've seen examples from is probably the one camera that if anything's better than the iPhone

00:49:36   It's the galaxy s7

00:49:38   Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think the s7 is probably the best camera out there other than the iPhone

00:49:43   You know of shipping phones or whatever whatever you want to call

00:49:46   I saw I mean I find this scale to be a little bit weird because there's like the moto z force droid is rated higher than

00:49:54   the iPhone 7 as is the Xperia z5

00:49:58   The galaxy galaxy s6 edge, which is a generation old

00:50:02   The HTC 10, I mean that's the problem with numerical scales right is that they they don't make any sense across generations

00:50:10   They don't make any sense, you know out of model year and frankly they just don't making any really damn sense at all

00:50:17   I'm not a fan of numeric scales. I never assign them to reviews not each fan. I think it's enormously reductive

00:50:23   And I think you know you could give somebody even if you want to give them the cheat sheet, you know

00:50:27   You give them a simple one-line kind of explanation

00:50:30   of why something is good or bad or kind of where it rates

00:50:33   in the grand scheme of things.

00:50:34   And you're doing people a much better favor

00:50:36   than a number, which is marketing.

00:50:38   It's not actually anything.

00:50:41   It even goes so far.

00:50:44   I think everybody has-- even at a consumer level,

00:50:46   people have gotten away from counting megapixels.

00:50:50   And for years, people who knew would say megapixels,

00:50:55   they are important.

00:50:56   And they certainly were pretty important in the early days

00:50:58   of digital photography, where if you only

00:51:01   had like a two megapixel phone, you really couldn't--

00:51:04   there's a limit to how far you could--

00:51:06   even if it was perfectly exposed,

00:51:07   there's a limit to how far you could blow it up,

00:51:09   because the pixels just weren't there to make a poster-sized

00:51:12   print.

00:51:15   We long ago got past that.

00:51:16   And things like, well, how big are the pixels on the sensor?

00:51:19   Not just how many there are, but how big they are,

00:51:21   and that you could--

00:51:22   just simply that a camera with fewer but bigger pixels

00:51:25   could get much better image quality than a camera

00:51:27   with more but smaller pixels to fit it in the same space.

00:51:32   And there's so many other factors.

00:51:33   Photography is so multivariate that the idea

00:51:37   that you could reduce it-- at least with the megapixel

00:51:39   comparison, you really are counting something.

00:51:41   And you can argue whether it makes for a better camera

00:51:43   or not, but you could say, well, 15 megapixels

00:51:46   is more than 12 megapixels.

00:51:48   You can't deny that.

00:51:49   You could argue about whether it actually

00:51:51   makes for a better camera or not,

00:51:52   but at least when you're comparing those numbers,

00:51:54   you're comparing the same thing.

00:51:55   Whereas saying this one gets an 89, I don't know.

00:52:00   It seems like bullshit to me.

00:52:02   And I didn't think Google's heart was in it.

00:52:04   Maybe I'm reading into it.

00:52:05   But when they talked about it on stage in the event,

00:52:08   to me, when they said that--

00:52:09   I forget the guy's name who was talking about the camera.

00:52:12   It just seemed to me like his heart wasn't in it.

00:52:14   Because Google naturally draws people

00:52:17   who want to measure things that are real.

00:52:20   And this, to me, seems like a bullshit censor.

00:52:22   the example photos they showed taken with the pixels

00:52:25   did look very nice to me.

00:52:27   I have no doubt--

00:52:28   well, I don't deny that it might have a very nice camera.

00:52:32   It might be a better camera than the iPhone 7.

00:52:34   I don't know.

00:52:35   But using DXO Mark to prove it, to me, raises some red alerts.

00:52:41   Well, if you go to--

00:52:42   I mean, the megapixels discussion, I think, is apt.

00:52:45   Because you got like--

00:52:47   in the first really affordable, quote, unquote,

00:52:50   commercial digital SLR was the 30D, right?

00:52:54   And around that time was the time, the age of the Mavica.

00:52:57   Most people don't remember it, but it was the digital camera

00:53:00   that you threw a floppy disk into, that Sony made.

00:53:04   And then took pictures onto a floppy disk.

00:53:05   And then they came out with the CD Mavica,

00:53:07   and so on and so forth.

00:53:08   But from those days, all the way on through to like,

00:53:11   Canon came out with this, I think it was a G6,

00:53:15   and the previous model, the G5, don't quote me,

00:53:17   don't at me, 'cause I'm sure I'm getting

00:53:19   these model numbers wrong.

00:53:20   It was something like 2008 or 2009,

00:53:24   somewhere around there, or a little bit earlier.

00:53:26   And they came out with this compact G-series camera,

00:53:29   which is compact point and shoot.

00:53:30   And the previous year's model year had been 12 megapixel.

00:53:34   And this model year was a 10 megapixel.

00:53:37   And everybody was going ape, customer-wise.

00:53:40   People would go like, "Why are you, why are you?"

00:53:42   I used to sell, I was selling cameras at the time.

00:53:44   And they were like, "Oh, why do you, why does it go down?"

00:53:48   And you have to sort of explain to them about pixel pitch,

00:53:51   right, and the size of the capture element,

00:53:53   and how a smaller megapixel rating,

00:53:56   you know, anything over eight megapixels

00:53:58   is already gonna give you a great eight by 10

00:54:00   and larger even.

00:54:02   So at that point, it's all a wash,

00:54:04   and for them to get better image quality,

00:54:06   they had to concentrate on the size of the elements,

00:54:09   to reduce the noise,

00:54:10   and to give you a better picture quality, all of that.

00:54:12   And so the numbers race is like a,

00:54:14   it's a, just long done.

00:54:17   I mean, it's done almost 10 years ago now, you know?

00:54:20   And that's the thing that you get into when you

00:54:23   start reading things numerically.

00:54:25   So like this DxOMark has these really wacky phones

00:54:28   rated above the iPhone 7 because the chart crosses model years.

00:54:32   And those cameras have lower pixel pitch and worse quality,

00:54:36   but in fact are rated, quote unquote, "better"

00:54:38   because they were rated on that scale of the older phones.

00:54:42   But then you have, in addition, the thing that bothers me

00:54:46   about DxO. DxO has been around for a lot of years, but in the last couple of years, they've

00:54:51   started marketing an attachment for the iPhone camera that is supposed to make it like DSLR

00:54:58   quality or whatever. It's basically a huge sensor, much bigger sensor that can fit in

00:55:02   your iPhone in an external unit that you plug into the lightning port, right? And it sits

00:55:08   on the side like a tumor and takes better pictures. And I'm sure it takes better. I

00:55:12   I've never tried one.

00:55:14   Our camera guys have tried one and they think it's fine.

00:55:16   But the thing is, is like you go to DxOMark,

00:55:19   you go to this review of the Pixel,

00:55:20   and it's literally the logo of the site,

00:55:23   the charts on the side, on the right hand side of the page,

00:55:26   and the Pixel overview is right there,

00:55:30   and framing the Pixel review of the camera

00:55:35   is an enormous banner for the DxO1 iPhone attachment,

00:55:40   And then down at the bottom, a pop-up banner is,

00:55:42   discover the DX01 Crow-Quality camera, miniaturized,

00:55:47   connected with a picture of an iPhone

00:55:49   and this thing plugged into it, right?

00:55:51   So look, I'm sure these folks are very nice.

00:55:54   I'm sure this David Cardinale is doing

00:55:57   the best work he can do writing this article.

00:56:00   But it does raise questions about how much you can rely

00:56:03   on the rating of a camera company

00:56:07   on another person's camera

00:56:09   when they're actually made for the same device.

00:56:12   Like, oh, what's better, the iPhone's camera

00:56:13   or the one we made for the iPhone?

00:56:15   You know?

00:56:16   And I would look, it's probably fine,

00:56:18   and it's probably like this three point difference

00:56:20   between that and the Pixel probably doesn't have anything

00:56:23   to do with it, it's just I always take stuff coming

00:56:25   from DxO about smartphones with a grain of salt,

00:56:27   as long as they're in the camera business, I always will.

00:56:30   It's just my gut, you know?

00:56:31   - Right, that they've got a motivation

00:56:34   to make iPhone users think maybe the iPhone camera

00:56:36   isn't that great because they're selling

00:56:39   a separate camera that you can add to your iPhone.

00:56:41   Like don't worry, you don't need to replace your iPhone,

00:56:42   you can just buy our camera

00:56:44   that you stick on the lighting port.

00:56:45   - Yeah, oh your camera is only an 84?

00:56:47   Oh, it's too bad, but we can make it 100.

00:56:49   - Do they give a rating to their DxO mark?

00:56:52   - No, I don't know, I don't know.

00:56:55   That would be good though, I would love to look at that.

00:56:57   Maybe they rate it like a 70 or something,

00:56:59   that would be funny.

00:57:00   But anyhow, the Pixel, like I really,

00:57:04   it's hard to kind of make any value judgments on the camera

00:57:07   until I take a look at it, right?

00:57:08   I don't want to go off the handle and say,

00:57:10   "Oh, it's probably crap," when it maybe is amazing,

00:57:12   and I just haven't seen it yet.

00:57:14   That would be the worst thing.

00:57:15   There are some specifications that do tell some stories about the camera.

00:57:19   It has a larger pixel pitch than the iPhone.

00:57:21   So however they arrange their sensor and size of the sensor,

00:57:25   they manage to map out larger capture elements per pixel,

00:57:29   which does help. It helps with color rendition.

00:57:31   The way that capture elements work is that there's a small,

00:57:34   flat capture element that sits on the back of the sensor,

00:57:38   and then above it there's a sort of well, right? And that well

00:57:41   divides it from the the capture elements next to it,

00:57:46   and the way light shines in, especially from the edges,

00:57:49   can affect how much color information that

00:57:52   that capture element picks up and how it reads as like a red pixel or green or

00:57:56   whatever the case may be. And all of that is predicated on how

00:58:01   large each of those wells are. And so the bigger the pixel pitch, the

00:58:04   The wider those wells are, the better color rendition, the more accurate color, the less

00:58:11   weirdness around the edges of the borders of two colors where they blend into one another

00:58:15   or divide from one another.

00:58:17   All of that is going to be affected by the pixel pitch.

00:58:19   So seeing a larger pixel pitch is already a great sign.

00:58:23   So that's good.

00:58:25   Then on top of that though, you do have, I believe it's a smaller aperture than the

00:58:29   widest aperture on the iPhones.

00:58:31   I think it's a 2.0, whereas the iPhone's a,

00:58:34   think, what's 1.8, is that a half stop or a full stop?

00:58:37   I don't know.

00:58:38   - I think it's a half stop. - Yeah, yeah.

00:58:39   But anyhow, it's brighter, right?

00:58:41   So people are saying, oh, it's brighter,

00:58:43   you know, the iPhone's brighter,

00:58:44   but at the same time, the larger pixel pitch

00:58:46   could offset it and then some,

00:58:48   because it is significantly larger.

00:58:50   So, you know, I'm interested to see what it can do.

00:58:53   I'm curious.

00:58:54   - Right, there's so many variables that go into photography

00:58:57   and that it really is, and it's always been,

00:59:01   It's not just new to digital photography.

00:59:02   It's always been an argument over how much glass

00:59:05   do you want to carry around.

00:59:06   - Right.

00:59:08   - You know, and sensor versus the lens,

00:59:14   and getting more light by doing it on the sensor side

00:59:17   as opposed to doing it on the aperture side.

00:59:20   Effectively, in the bottom line is what is it like

00:59:22   to actually go out and shoot photos with the thing?

00:59:24   And that's what matters.

00:59:25   One difference I've seen is that it doesn't,

00:59:29   unless they're not talking about it,

00:59:30   It doesn't have optical image stabilization.

00:59:34   So I think on stills, that's going

00:59:35   to hurt them a little bit, because it certainly is going

00:59:38   to--

00:59:39   it really does help with stills.

00:59:41   On video, I'm not sure, because it

00:59:43   seems they have a gyroscope-driven digital

00:59:49   stabilization for video.

00:59:51   And they showed an example that was supposedly shot side

00:59:53   by side, where they exaggerated the camera shake of video

00:59:57   while you walk.

00:59:58   and their stabilized version looked pretty good.

01:00:00   - Yeah, I mean, there's still the normal

01:00:03   rolling shutter effects, and then you do get

01:00:05   the little blur and low light and stuff,

01:00:07   but it looks like they're digital.

01:00:08   I mean, this is Google's kind of bag.

01:00:11   The digital stabilization I would estimate

01:00:13   would probably be pretty good, so I'm not shocked

01:00:15   to hear that it is pretty good in the video.

01:00:17   But yeah, no optical stabilization.

01:00:19   - I have an app, maybe there's other apps that do it,

01:00:22   but I have an app for the iPhone called Horizon.

01:00:24   I don't know if you've ever heard of it.

01:00:26   It's an app that lets you shoot horizontal video

01:00:29   no matter how you hold your iPhone.

01:00:31   - Oh, okay.

01:00:34   - So what they're doing is they're just using

01:00:36   a crop of the sensor to do it.

01:00:38   And so that you can hold, now obviously there is a,

01:00:42   it's not magic, it doesn't shoot the same exact video

01:00:45   that you would get holding it horizontally

01:00:47   when you hold it vertically, it's a crop,

01:00:50   so it's almost like the equivalent

01:00:51   of being zoomed in a little bit.

01:00:55   - Right.

01:00:56   but you get a preview while you shoot.

01:00:58   But they must be doing the same thing,

01:01:00   'cause it also, the other effect is even

01:01:02   when you use Horizon to shoot,

01:01:04   even if you hold your iPhone horizontally,

01:01:08   you still get stabilization.

01:01:11   - Yes, it's all the digital stabilization systems

01:01:13   are exactly that, they're all based on crop.

01:01:16   And so the most intelligent ones will crop dynamically.

01:01:19   Right, the earliest ones are

01:01:23   the earliest digital stabilization systems

01:01:27   were all based on a fixed crop.

01:01:28   So they would essentially crop in 20% of your resolution

01:01:32   and then use that as a buffer, right?

01:01:34   To try and stabilize your image.

01:01:35   And the more dynamic ones, the newer ones,

01:01:38   like this Google one most likely,

01:01:39   although I haven't read deep on it,

01:01:41   vary that crop by how fast you're moving your phone.

01:01:44   They use the accelerometer data and gyroscope data to say,

01:01:47   hey, you know, you're vibrating, you're, you know,

01:01:50   jigging a lot, so let's go ahead and just crop in a ton

01:01:53   and then, oh, you're more stable now,

01:01:55   you've stopped walking or whatever,

01:01:56   let's go back out and get you as much resolution as we can.

01:01:59   So the more intelligent ones, that's what they do.

01:02:01   And that's the way Apple's digital stabilization works

01:02:03   on the, like the iPhone 6S where it has no optical.

01:02:06   - Right.

01:02:07   I think it's a win for the iPhone 7, though,

01:02:10   and I think it'll be proven out

01:02:11   that on all of the iPhone 7s, plus and regular size,

01:02:15   you get true optical image stabilization,

01:02:17   including for video.

01:02:18   So that's-- - I'll tell you what,

01:02:19   I missed the hell out of it in 2X.

01:02:22   - Oh, yeah.

01:02:23   - It's the worst, yeah.

01:02:24   It's like, yeah.

01:02:26   - It's the one thing I keep telling myself

01:02:28   to console myself that my personal iPhone

01:02:31   doesn't have the 2X camera.

01:02:33   Is that, well, it doesn't have OIS, so who cares?

01:02:36   - Right.

01:02:37   - So what, who cares?

01:02:38   - It is very shaky, I'll tell you.

01:02:39   Especially because it's 2X, right?

01:02:41   You know, so hey, it's the price you pay.

01:02:45   - It's a camera for well-lit situations.

01:02:48   While we're on this subject,

01:02:51   I don't know that there's anybody who knows more

01:02:53   about the depth effect on the iPhone 7 Plus than you.

01:02:57   You had pre-release access to the feature a couple days

01:03:01   before the developer beta came out.

01:03:03   Your explanation of it is as detailed, technically,

01:03:06   as anything I've seen.

01:03:08   More detailed in some regards even than what Apple has seen,

01:03:10   because you've poked at them to get them to tell you

01:03:14   that they wrote their own custom disk blur.

01:03:17   Which is funny, because it came up a couple times.

01:03:19   I keep seeing people say that it's like a Gaussian blur,

01:03:22   which is exactly what you said

01:03:23   in your first version of the report.

01:03:25   - I'm so irritated.

01:03:26   I'm so irritated that it was in my article.

01:03:29   - Right.

01:03:29   (laughing)

01:03:30   Because I think, 'cause I remember talking to you

01:03:32   about it behind the scenes,

01:03:33   and you were somewhat skeptical that it was a Gaussian blur.

01:03:35   You're like, "But that's what they told me."

01:03:36   (laughing)

01:03:38   Right, that's why you're frustrated.

01:03:39   - When you get told that it's Gaussian,

01:03:40   you just say, "Okay."

01:03:42   - Yeah.

01:03:42   - But honestly, a reader, and I'm sorry,

01:03:44   I don't have the tweet in front of me,

01:03:46   but he tweeted at me and was like,

01:03:48   "Hey, this picture of a strawberry that you have in your piece,

01:03:51   like, I'm-- the edges of it, the bloom really looks like a disc blur."

01:03:55   And the guy's probably in visual, you know, in visual work somehow.

01:03:59   He's a designer or in visual effects or something.

01:04:01   'Cause the visual effects supervisors and those people

01:04:03   are writing articles about it now, they all have it nailed.

01:04:06   And, you know, like, they're super sharp about this 'cause they do it all day.

01:04:09   They simulate camera effects for a living, right?

01:04:13   Or many of them do.

01:04:14   But he said, "Hey, this kind of looks like a disc blur. Are you sure?"

01:04:18   And I was like, no, no.

01:04:19   And I was really like, oh, you know.

01:04:21   And he's like, oh, just asking.

01:04:22   And I'm like, no, no.

01:04:23   You know what?

01:04:24   Hey, you know what?

01:04:25   Actually, now that I look at it-- and so I went back.

01:04:27   And yeah, it's a custom disk blur.

01:04:28   So I was really irritated.

01:04:29   I hate getting anything wrong.

01:04:31   So it's just like, it makes me itch.

01:04:32   Here's the thing I've noticed.

01:04:34   And I've had a few brief conversations with people

01:04:36   on Twitter about it.

01:04:38   At least for me personally, while I

01:04:40   was shooting test shots with the iPhone 7 Plus review

01:04:43   unit with the feature on, it looks to me

01:04:46   like they're doing something different with the noise,

01:04:49   that to me, it gives a sort of film-like grain

01:04:54   to the noise on those images.

01:04:58   And I don't see the same thing on the non-portrait shots.

01:05:02   And I don't know if I'm seeing what I wanna see

01:05:04   because I've always been a big fan.

01:05:05   - No, I have seen it too.

01:05:06   I've seen it too.

01:05:07   And honestly, I haven't seen it as much on my shots,

01:05:10   but maybe I just haven't been looking,

01:05:11   but I've seen it a ton on examples,

01:05:13   like things people are showing me

01:05:15   or things that I see on Instagram.

01:05:17   And yes, I have seen it and I don't know.

01:05:20   I have no information about whether they're artificially

01:05:25   under sharpening it, right?

01:05:26   Or sharpening it with a tighter radius.

01:05:29   Excuse me, under noise reducing it is what I meant.

01:05:32   Or sharpening it with a tighter radius.

01:05:33   Because I am not a fan of how aggressively

01:05:38   Apple noise reduces their images.

01:05:40   So I feel that the iPhone's images,

01:05:44   while great, would be better subjectively, right?

01:05:49   This is me talking.

01:05:49   This is not like some grandiose statement

01:05:52   about better or worse for everybody.

01:05:54   But I definitely feel that they would be better

01:05:56   if they were sharpened a little bit less while still

01:06:00   understanding why they do it.

01:06:02   Because most people would just rather not see any grain.

01:06:06   And to me, that's the trade-off.

01:06:08   And I get it.

01:06:08   I just don't like it.

01:06:09   Yeah, I've never been afraid of the grain.

01:06:12   I used to when I shot film would tend to just leave the camera loaded with 400 or even 800

01:06:18   speed film because I always thought like if you're going to leave some film in there,

01:06:23   be ready for any situation. And if it means that I'm an outside and I'm getting a lot

01:06:28   of grain because I could be shooting like it with 100 speed film, so be it because the

01:06:34   colors still look good and I can shoot indoors and get an exposure where I couldn't if I

01:06:40   if I had 100-speed film already loaded in there.

01:06:42   And if there was a slider I could set in iOS

01:06:45   that adjusted noise reduction,

01:06:49   I would probably turn it to the lowest setting

01:06:51   that Apple would allow me to get away with,

01:06:53   knowing that Apple isn't going to say

01:06:55   don't noise reduce at all.

01:06:57   'Cause that's one of the things people have been noticing

01:06:58   now that you can shoot raw with the iPhone camera

01:07:01   is holy shit how much noise there is on the image

01:07:04   when you shoot raw, and it's just what the camera sees.

01:07:08   Everybody I know who's using Lightroom to shoot RAW on the iPhone 7 is like, "Holy

01:07:14   shit, I can't believe how noisy this is."

01:07:16   I'm sure there's somebody at Apple or on the camera team who are like, "Do you know

01:07:20   how small that sensor is?"

01:07:22   You know what kind of miracles we're pulling?

01:07:25   That's why I always say, I try to be really careful when I'm talking about this noise

01:07:29   and say, for me, I would be okay if they dialed it back.

01:07:33   But they really are performing miracles.

01:07:35   I mean, honestly, the RAW image that comes off of that sensor

01:07:39   is already better than the actual data that they get.

01:07:44   So I mean, I think that you're getting a viewport

01:07:48   with the RAW stuff, and just how good the ISP is.

01:07:54   Yes.

01:07:55   I mean, you could always tweak it.

01:07:56   I talked about this last week.

01:07:58   One of my almost beloved devices-- not just cameras,

01:08:02   but devices I've ever owned was my original Ricoh GRD.

01:08:06   The Ricoh GRs were the point and shoot cameras

01:08:08   that they made for film for years,

01:08:09   and when they first went digital, they called it the GRD.

01:08:12   It was the first generation one.

01:08:13   And it's very confusing,

01:08:14   'cause then they had the GRD2 and the GRD3, I think,

01:08:17   and then they went back, they went back,

01:08:19   and they just had one, instead of numbering it four,

01:08:21   they just went back to Ricoh GR.

01:08:23   And so it's very confusing.

01:08:24   But I had the original one, I think I bought it in 2006,

01:08:27   and the whole reason I bought it,

01:08:29   I bought it without ever knowing anybody who owned it,

01:08:31   just based on the reviews, and it was gray market,

01:08:33   wasn't officially sold in North America,

01:08:36   was that everybody said that Ricoh's digital sensor

01:08:40   is tuned, the ISP is tuned to turn the,

01:08:43   make the noise look more like film grain.

01:08:46   And everybody who had one on these boards would say so,

01:08:49   and I looked at people's Flickr uploads,

01:08:51   and looked at, Flickr would let you see the original,

01:08:53   so I was like, damned if that doesn't look like film grain,

01:08:56   not digital noise, or at least less, more along those lines.

01:09:00   And the idea was, and Rico was explicit about it,

01:09:03   as opposed to being sort of secretive like Apple

01:09:05   and not really talking about it.

01:09:07   Rico was very explicit and said,

01:09:09   "There's a limit to what we can do with these,"

01:09:12   and it was a very small sensor for a 2006 point and shoot.

01:09:16   There's a limit to how much, there's going to be noise.

01:09:19   And so rather than trying to hide the noise,

01:09:21   our efforts are to make the noise aesthetically pleasing.

01:09:25   And that's exactly what the film industry did

01:09:28   for a hundred years.

01:09:29   The people who are like anti-noise would say,

01:09:31   "Ah, you guys celebrate film.

01:09:35   "You're just, you're romantics."

01:09:38   And you're celebrating something

01:09:42   that was a technical limitation anyway.

01:09:45   But I would argue, in my opinion, sort of as an amateur,

01:09:49   but the reason film grain looked good

01:09:51   wasn't just nostalgia.

01:09:52   It was because Kodak and Fuji and the other film companies

01:09:56   spent 100 years making the noise look better.

01:10:00   I call it noise now, but that it wasn't like,

01:10:05   it's not just because it was old

01:10:07   that we thought film grain looked good,

01:10:08   it was that they, decades of work

01:10:10   went into making it look good.

01:10:12   Anyway, I see it in the seven plus portrait shots,

01:10:15   and I don't know if it's my imagination or not.

01:10:17   - Yeah, I mean, I do know, I do know that they,

01:10:23   you know, the work that was done to tune the ISP

01:10:28   was definitely done with an eye to what had come in the past,

01:10:31   but not just photographs, you know,

01:10:32   other works of art too.

01:10:34   I mean, remember, they're creating this custom from scratch

01:10:37   and Apple's never one to kind of go with the accepted wisdom

01:10:40   around something like that.

01:10:41   So they have an opportunity to sort of tune the ISP

01:10:45   to however they want it.

01:10:46   And now that the camera, honestly,

01:10:49   what else is a defining, you know,

01:10:52   definitive deciding factor between phones.

01:10:56   Most of the time it's the camera these days.

01:10:59   And you could argue that AI or the assistant features

01:11:02   may be what they're seeking for to be next.

01:11:05   But right now, if you're deciding between three cameras

01:11:08   or three phones on the shelf,

01:11:10   you kinda wanna know which one has the best camera,

01:11:12   'cause that's your camera too.

01:11:13   It's a huge factor when they decide on picking stuff.

01:11:17   So now that they have an opportunity

01:11:19   to really have an amazing camera that has optical zoom,

01:11:24   that has all of these additional features

01:11:26   that could be unlocked in the future by having two lenses,

01:11:30   and they're able to tune the ISP how they want,

01:11:32   they can pick and choose and really create a look

01:11:36   that is new, you know?

01:11:38   And it may have some elements of film,

01:11:41   it may have some elements of what we consider to be

01:11:45   like, you know, characteristic of digital images,

01:11:49   which would be maybe a little bit crisper,

01:11:52   maybe a little bit lower noise or whatever,

01:11:54   but you could definitely kind of see them

01:11:56   combining the two qualities.

01:11:58   - I've been thinking, one thing that's occurred to me

01:12:00   as more and more people are shooting with this,

01:12:03   you still have to have a beta,

01:12:04   so it's still pretty uncommon.

01:12:05   You have to, A, have to have this iPhone 7 Plus,

01:12:07   and B, you have to be willing to install the beta,

01:12:09   but I've seen enough examples.

01:12:10   It occurs to me, this thought had occurred to me,

01:12:13   but now the more I think about it,

01:12:14   the more I think it's gonna be a big deal,

01:12:16   is that the number of people who see your photos

01:12:20   on their own phones, they're seeing them

01:12:23   on Instagram on their phone, or on Facebook,

01:12:25   or on Twitter, or something like that,

01:12:26   they're seeing them in such a small size

01:12:28   that the smaller the size you view the image at,

01:12:31   more like a real bokeh from a real large sensor camera,

01:12:36   the effect looks like.

01:12:38   You have to zoom in more, you have to make it really big

01:12:42   to see the deficiencies of the trickery.

01:12:46   So when you see somebody who has an iPhone 7 Plus

01:12:48   using this feature just in their Instagram feed,

01:12:51   that's more compelling than looking at it

01:12:57   blown up to a full size on your iMac.

01:12:59   - Yeah, and comparing it, like a lot of,

01:13:00   obviously, and this is not a dig,

01:13:02   it's sort of what people want to see,

01:13:04   but comparing it against, even in my piece,

01:13:07   like I had to, I really had to compare it

01:13:10   against the same shot, which it does shoot automatically,

01:13:13   the same shot without the effect, you know?

01:13:15   Because that's what we want to see, right?

01:13:18   Oh, what did it look like before?

01:13:19   What does it look like after?

01:13:20   But I honestly think that does it a disservice

01:13:22   because I think then it allows you to go through

01:13:24   and be really picky about,

01:13:26   oh, this particular thing is wrong,

01:13:28   or I missed this, or whatever.

01:13:30   But if you just look at it in isolation,

01:13:32   they're really pretty good.

01:13:33   I mean, there's some that are really funky

01:13:35   and weird and dumb and silly and it screws up,

01:13:38   but it is very early,

01:13:40   and there are some shots out of it that are just great.

01:13:43   And you don't have to use them.

01:13:44   If it turns out weird, you got the other one,

01:13:46   which would have been what it would look like normally.

01:13:49   So there's no loss.

01:13:50   - Back to the Pixel.

01:13:55   And I don't think, I think a digression

01:13:59   about the iPhone camera is fine,

01:14:01   because one of the, and a big picture,

01:14:03   I think it's not just what the pixels look like

01:14:07   before you even turn them on and saying,

01:14:09   look, this industrial design is just

01:14:13   blatantly following Apple's lead.

01:14:15   Everything about the pixels to me is saying,

01:14:19   we're making an iPhone caliber,

01:14:21   if we're going after the iPhone market.

01:14:23   They've made a switching tool that,

01:14:26   I don't even know how it works.

01:14:27   It's fascinating to me.

01:14:28   I can't wait to see this.

01:14:30   They have a cable they ship it with

01:14:31   that has lightning on one side,

01:14:33   goes into the pixel on the other,

01:14:34   and takes things like your iMessages

01:14:37   and your text messages from your phone.

01:14:39   I don't understand how something

01:14:41   with a lightning cable is reading that.

01:14:42   I guess it's pretending to be like iTunes or something?

01:14:46   - Yeah, I mean, yeah.

01:14:47   - You'll have to give it permission on your iPhone,

01:14:49   the way that the iPhone-- - You'll have to tell it

01:14:50   to trust it, yeah. - Right, trust this thing,

01:14:52   and it'll take it over, and I guess it'll put your

01:14:55   iMessage and text message history into Allo, I guess,

01:15:01   or maybe their Messages app.

01:15:03   I don't know which app they're gonna put that history into.

01:15:06   But that's a big deal.

01:15:07   They really, I mean, whether it's gonna work or not,

01:15:10   They seem to seriously be saying, look,

01:15:13   we know there's a lot of people using iPhones who are also

01:15:15   using heavily into Google services, including,

01:15:18   I'm sure, thousands of people who work at Google.

01:15:21   And they're doing the best effort

01:15:24   they can to say, we want to make it possible for you to switch.

01:15:29   And there's a couple of things.

01:15:31   They're all on the TechSpec page, in a way, that to me,

01:15:35   these are a couple of things where they're obviously

01:15:38   ahead of Apple.

01:15:39   And you have to say, Apple, I think that they really

01:15:44   need to catch up.

01:15:45   Here's one of them.

01:15:46   Unlimited storage for photos and videos at full resolution.

01:15:52   So if you buy a Pixel, your Google Photos account will--

01:15:55   and here's what I'm curious about, though.

01:15:57   Is it only for photos you've shot on the Pixel?

01:16:00   Or can you shoot 4K video on another camera,

01:16:02   and because you own a Pixel, you can upload it all

01:16:05   to your Google account?

01:16:08   I don't know.

01:16:09   But even if it is only for the photos you shoot on the Pixel,

01:16:12   that is a hell of a thing.

01:16:14   Apple gives you five gigabytes of storage for free,

01:16:17   and that includes everything-- your backups, your documents,

01:16:22   and your photos.

01:16:24   And Google is saying for photos, unlimited at full resolution.

01:16:29   That is a huge difference, because real people run up

01:16:33   against that five gigabyte limit if they shoot photos

01:16:35   with any regularity, let alone if they

01:16:37   to shoot 1080p or 4K video.

01:16:39   - Yeah, and that thing is, that 5GB limit

01:16:43   has been around forever, you know?

01:16:45   I mean, I think that it's, if it,

01:16:48   I'm not sure this will, because I don't know if people,

01:16:53   I don't know if this is a big enough factor

01:16:55   in people not buying an iPhone,

01:16:57   but if it does, for lack of a better word, shame it,

01:17:04   shame Apple into giving us unlimited storage for free,

01:17:07   or at least some enormous amount,

01:17:10   some finite but enormous amount for free, I would love that.

01:17:14   That would thank Google for that.

01:17:16   - Yeah, and even if Apple wanted to segregate

01:17:21   photo storage from other storage,

01:17:23   instead of just saying you've got one bucket

01:17:25   where everything goes into,

01:17:26   but I think they should up both.

01:17:28   I think five gigabytes is not enough, especially,

01:17:31   I really think the more I think about it,

01:17:32   now that the minimum phone size

01:17:33   32 gigabytes. How can the storage be five gigabytes?

01:17:36   Oh, it's impossible. It's ridiculous. Like you go to backup and then like my wife and I have different we have separate iCloud accounts

01:17:42   So we use the same iTunes account. So she gets all my purchases, but she has her own iCloud account. So all of her

01:17:49   Photos and all that stuff synced to her phone, but I don't get them all in my photo stream, right?

01:17:54   Not because we you know, don't we're not gonna care but it's just you know, less messy

01:17:59   I mean, I got like 1500 screenshots in my camera roll. She didn't want to see all that junk, you know, and these pictures of events

01:18:06   She doesn't need she didn't even know what I do for a living. So she's okay, but the that whole like

01:18:11   All she has a five gigabytes and now I have to pay to upgrade her when I've already paid to upgrade myself

01:18:18   because I have three phones and she's got her phone and my daughter's iPad and her iPad and you know,

01:18:26   Etc. And the it's full instantly instantly, you know, so just to ensure that she doesn't lose

01:18:32   Stuff she's got a backup to iCloud or up her iCloud storage because there's I mean she didn't even have a computer

01:18:40   Like we are truly a post computer household aside from me

01:18:43   Which has to sort of is like tied to my desktops because I choose to be right

01:18:49   I mean, I could probably do my job from my iPhone. Don't tell my boss, but you know that the

01:18:56   So big screens do help, especially on busy news days or when I'm managing a huge team

01:19:00   across multiple continents. But my wife doesn't do that. And her work, they don't even let

01:19:05   her bring computers into the OR, so she doesn't care. And so for her, her computer is her

01:19:10   phone and is her iPad, and she doesn't have anything to plug it into to back it up. If

01:19:15   I didn't have this desktop, there would be no option to do that. And I don't even want

01:19:20   her to do that, right? Because I erase and install betas into all kinds of weird stuff

01:19:25   on my machine and my machine's encrypted and all kinds of junk. So, you know, this,

01:19:30   maybe I'm not home and she can't get on it or whatever. So for her, iCloud is her computer,

01:19:36   right? That is her storage. That is everything. That's all of the storage in the world that she

01:19:40   has aside from what's local on her phone. And it's just really crippling and silly for it to be so

01:19:45   small out of the gate.

01:19:46   Like it should guarantee that you should be able

01:19:49   to back up a full iPhone out of the box.

01:19:54   Anything else is just kind of silly.

01:19:55   - Yeah, and I, you know, it's,

01:19:58   I'm only saying that Apple has to do this

01:20:01   for people who've purchased devices of, you know,

01:20:05   I don't know where you cut it off, but you know,

01:20:08   I don't think that they should necessarily give free

01:20:11   unlimited storage to anybody who just signs up

01:20:13   for a free iCloud account.

01:20:15   But if you've bought a new device,

01:20:19   especially the iPhones, which start at $649 or $700

01:20:24   or something like that, and it's easy for me,

01:20:27   I always say this, it's easy for me to spend

01:20:29   Tim Cook's money from my armchair here,

01:20:31   but here's existence proof that it's possible.

01:20:33   Here's a phone you can buy for the exact same price

01:20:35   as the iPhone that comes with free unlimited cloud storage

01:20:37   for photos and video.

01:20:39   So to me, the bar is raised and it's way above,

01:20:42   It's not like the five gigabytes versus 10 gigabytes.

01:20:46   It's five gigabytes, which is not enough, versus unlimited.

01:20:50   Pure and simple that Apple needs to catch up.

01:20:52   The other one, it's right here,

01:20:54   is that they do fast charging.

01:20:56   They call it seven hours.

01:20:57   I'm sure seven hours of what,

01:20:59   but they say you can get seven hours of battery life

01:21:02   in just 15 minutes with the Pixel.

01:21:04   Now, I thought, here's what my guess was.

01:21:07   My guess was they've included

01:21:09   a more expensive high watt adapter.

01:21:13   And I'm looking at the tech spec, and that's exactly it.

01:21:15   It comes with a USB-C 18 watt adapter.

01:21:18   That's the thing that makes the iPhone so slow to charge

01:21:23   is that it comes with a five watt adapter.

01:21:26   It's, if you plug an iPhone,

01:21:28   I think it's true for the regular 7,

01:21:30   but I know it's true for the 7 Plus.

01:21:32   If you plug it into the expensive iPad Pro 12 watt adapter,

01:21:37   It charges way faster.

01:21:39   And Apple sells, I forget how many watts it is,

01:21:41   but they sell like a 50 or $60 standalone adapter

01:21:46   that'll charge it even faster than that.

01:21:48   So it's not like iPhones can't do fast charging.

01:21:51   Nobody just knows about it because they ship

01:21:53   with these measly little five watt adapters that charge it.

01:21:56   - Well, sort of, right?

01:21:58   Like yeah, it will charge faster, absolutely.

01:22:00   You could charge it with an iPad adapter

01:22:01   and it'll charge, I don't know,

01:22:03   let's call it 2X faster or whatever, right?

01:22:06   But the quick charging that's like 15 minutes

01:22:09   for seven hours or whatever,

01:22:11   I mean that's like 4X or 5X the normal charging rate

01:22:14   of a phone.

01:22:15   And generally speaking, that has to be enabled

01:22:18   by quick charging circuitry.

01:22:21   So quick charging circuitry, and then a controller,

01:22:24   which controls that obviously the rate and the voltage

01:22:27   and all of that stuff coming into the battery.

01:22:28   Like Qualcomm makes a quick charge system, right?

01:22:31   So if you're using Snapdragons in your phone,

01:22:33   You can get their quick charge plug and play in your device as a manufacturer, I'm saying.

01:22:40   You can grab Qualcomm's chip and put it in there and it will give you faster charging

01:22:45   and all of that.

01:22:46   But I think it's just a… there is a real disconnect between this concept of, "Oh,

01:22:57   "Oh, I'm gonna charge my phone real fast, and I'm also going to ensure that the battery lasts a long time,

01:23:06   you know, and doesn't deteriorate." Because quick charging does damage batteries, right?

01:23:11   The faster you charge the battery, the more strain you put on it, and the more aging cycles you put on that chemistry.

01:23:20   So there are trade-offs, you know, and sometimes they get hot, and sometimes they explode.

01:23:24   So quick charging is good and an interesting technology

01:23:29   that could very well pave the way towards like,

01:23:32   well, if you can charge something in five minutes,

01:23:35   who really cares how long the battery lasts?

01:23:39   - I tend to think that for the price that iPhones cost,

01:23:41   they should ship with at least the 10-watt power adapter,

01:23:44   if not the 12-watt power adapter.

01:23:46   I know it's a bigger adapter too,

01:23:49   but I still feel like it would get you

01:23:52   part of the way there.

01:23:53   I don't know if you've heard about this,

01:23:55   but speaking of power adapters and stuff like that,

01:23:58   Samsung has some problems with the batteries

01:24:02   in their phones.

01:24:04   - I hadn't heard.

01:24:07   - Did you see the story today?

01:24:08   I'm sure you did because you stay on top of everything.

01:24:10   But some guy was on a Southwest flight this morning

01:24:12   and his good Note 7, he even powered it off, he says,

01:24:20   But whatever, it started burning a hole in his pocket,

01:24:24   and so he got it out of a pocket,

01:24:26   and there was smoke coming out of it,

01:24:28   so they evacuated, this is before the plane took off,

01:24:29   the plane's on the ground.

01:24:30   And the flight staff on the southwest was like,

01:24:33   well, everybody, let's get everybody off the plane.

01:24:35   Nobody got hurt, it was calm and orderly,

01:24:37   disembarkation, is that the word?

01:24:41   - Yes. - And then they went in

01:24:43   to take a look, and it burned through the floor

01:24:46   of the plane.

01:24:47   - I hadn't heard that bit.

01:24:49   But the scary part, the really scary part,

01:24:51   is that it was a updated phone

01:24:54   that he just bought on September 21st

01:24:56   and was supposedly had like the marking on the package

01:24:58   that says this is one of the good ones,

01:25:00   not one of the bad ones.

01:25:01   - Right.

01:25:02   - Which makes me think,

01:25:04   I've been wondering for a while with this fiasco,

01:25:07   and people keep writing to me,

01:25:08   'cause I think people don't follow closely,

01:25:09   if people get on an airplane,

01:25:10   and apparently lately, around the world,

01:25:13   you get on an airplane,

01:25:15   and one of the things they say is,

01:25:16   "If you have a Samsung Galaxy Note 7,

01:25:18   You must power it off now and keep it powered off for the entire flight, which is terrible publicity. I mean just dreadful

01:25:24   It's like the worst possible

01:25:27   advertisement ever I've seen people on Twitter saying that they're telling people out in the

01:25:31   Airport to that they're you know, like, you know when they're like, hey, we're gonna board, you know flight

01:25:35   677 it's gonna board in about 10 minutes. Oh, and if you have a galaxy note 7 you got to power it off

01:25:41   Please board now if you're gonna go like 7 just throw it in the trash on your way in

01:25:47   I've been wondering for a while

01:25:49   How are they gonna deal with this when there's good ones and bad ones and and you say oh no, no

01:25:53   No, I've got I just got my new one. It's got the green battery icon up in a corner. It's it this one's good

01:26:00   Are they gonna are they gonna believe that or are they gonna be like no way buddy? You're turning it off and now

01:26:05   Gonna believe them. Are you kidding me? We couldn't for a decade

01:26:09   We couldn't use our devices on planes just because they thought maybe

01:26:13   Maybe something might interfere that they had no evidence of so I don't I don't think so

01:26:19   My other thought with this news today that a quote unquote good galaxy note 7 caught fire on a plane

01:26:25   Is that they're gonna wreck this for everybody and they're just gonna say you've got to turn all of your phones

01:26:28   Powered not just sleeping. You've got a power them off before you step on the plane and

01:26:34   Did you know whether they can make you do that or not?

01:26:37   but they could certainly notice if you have it out and you're sitting in your seat and you're dicking around on your phone and

01:26:41   and I don't know what I would do for that

01:26:44   20 or 30 minutes.

01:26:45   - Yeah, that is, God, that is the worst scenario.

01:26:47   Oh my God.

01:26:48   Now you're giving me nightmares.

01:26:50   Poor Nick Bilton can undo all of his work.

01:26:52   - Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:26:54   Nick Bilton got us to be able to use our flights

01:26:56   while we're landing.

01:26:57   Now I'm worried Samsung's gonna wreck it for everybody.

01:27:00   Well, I know we gotta wrap it up.

01:27:01   I know the baseball game is starting,

01:27:02   but I gotta do a third sponsor

01:27:04   and then we can talk about everyone else

01:27:05   we wanna talk about for the rest of the show.

01:27:07   - Sounds good. - But our third

01:27:08   and final sponsor,

01:27:10   Amazing coincidence given what we'll be talking about

01:27:12   in the next segment of the show.

01:27:15   It really is a coincidence, but it's interesting.

01:27:17   Is Eero, E-E-R-O.

01:27:21   Eero is a modern new WiFi system for your house.

01:27:26   And the basic premise is one WiFi router is not enough.

01:27:32   It's not strong enough signal for most people's houses.

01:27:35   Maybe if you live in a studio apartment

01:27:37   or something like that, sure, you're fine.

01:27:39   But if you have a house that has more than one or two floors,

01:27:43   or it has thick walls, or any sorts of things

01:27:46   that can interfere with the signal,

01:27:47   you might notice that there are parts of your house that

01:27:50   don't get a good Wi-Fi signal.

01:27:52   Eero is designed to change all of this.

01:27:54   They make a single device.

01:27:55   It's a small, elegant box about the size of an Apple TV,

01:27:59   sort of Apple-style round-wreck design.

01:28:01   And you just buy more than one of them.

01:28:02   So I think one of the basic packs

01:28:04   that they recommend for most people based on square footage

01:28:06   is you get a three-pack.

01:28:07   You get three of these things.

01:28:09   You hook one of them up to your cable.

01:28:11   You put the other two strategically around the house.

01:28:14   And your work is done.

01:28:17   The different pods negotiate with each other,

01:28:22   and they just do the work to form a mesh network

01:28:24   that blankets your home in fast, reliable Wi-Fi.

01:28:28   They sent me a three-pack when they started sponsoring

01:28:30   the show.

01:28:31   I set it up.

01:28:32   I set it up thinking, okay, I'll set this up,

01:28:34   and then I'll go back to my Apple, whatever it's called.

01:28:38   And I never went back to my airport because the Eero system was as good or better at every

01:28:48   single spot in my house.

01:28:49   And I didn't, it really was more work to like unbox the devices and plug them in than it

01:28:53   was to set it up.

01:28:55   That's like you unbox it, you plug them in and you're done.

01:28:57   It's unbelievable.

01:28:59   The configuration goes through a really nice iPhone app.

01:29:02   So there's no, you know, command line typing or logging in through a stupid web browser

01:29:07   or at a certain port or something like that.

01:29:09   You just get on the Eero app on your phone.

01:29:12   Could not be easier.

01:29:13   They are protected with state of the art WPA2 encryption.

01:29:16   Of course, Eero's update automatically.

01:29:21   So if there's like a security update or a performance update,

01:29:24   just updates by itself.

01:29:27   It's so great.

01:29:27   They have new features like parental controls,

01:29:30   where you can create profiles for your kids

01:29:32   and you can manage what and when they have internet access to.

01:29:37   Just go check it out.

01:29:39   I cannot tell you everything there is to know about this

01:29:41   in the course of one little sponsorship read.

01:29:44   Just know that they more or less recommend one euro

01:29:46   for every thousand square feet of your home.

01:29:48   They've got more information on the website

01:29:50   where you can figure out how many you want in new.

01:29:51   And here's the most important thing of all,

01:29:53   30 day money back guarantee.

01:29:55   So buy one, see if it works.

01:29:57   You've got 30 days to just put it back in the box,

01:29:59   send it back to them, no questions asked,

01:30:01   and it'll be done.

01:30:04   Here's what you do to find out more.

01:30:06   You've got to remember this promo code.

01:30:07   It's the talk show, the talk show.

01:30:10   Just go to ero.com, E-E-R-O dot com, and at checkout,

01:30:15   you select overnight shipping.

01:30:16   And that code, the talk show, gets you overnight shipping.

01:30:19   So depending on what time of day you're listening to me

01:30:21   tell you this, you could have it by tomorrow for free,

01:30:25   shipping-wise.

01:30:26   So go check them out, ero.com.

01:30:28   So I say coincidental, because one of the products Google

01:30:33   announced at their event was called Google Wi-Fi, which

01:30:37   is a thing that sounds like it works a lot like Eero,

01:30:41   where you can buy more than one of these things.

01:30:43   You spread them around your house, and it gives you Wi-Fi,

01:30:47   and it does all the negotiation for you.

01:30:49   Right.

01:30:50   And as I watched that part of the presentation--

01:30:55   I've been thinking it ever since Eero sponsored the show,

01:30:58   but watching Google say it is I began thinking,

01:31:00   You know, it has been, I don't remember the last time

01:31:03   Apple has said a damn word about airport,

01:31:06   and airport seems like it's outdated.

01:31:10   - Yeah, exactly.

01:31:12   I mean, I did the same thing.

01:31:14   I bought a pack of Eros, or Eero?

01:31:17   Eero, is it singular?

01:31:18   What's the plural?

01:31:19   - I don't know.

01:31:19   I'm gonna call 'em Eros.

01:31:20   - Pack of Eero, okay.

01:31:23   Like, a pack of wild Eero.

01:31:25   A murder of Eros, and I installed them,

01:31:30   I like them a lot. I mean, they generally cover well. They cover areas of my house where

01:31:34   I did not have coverage before. Even like I configured a handful of other extenders

01:31:40   like an Express attached to my extreme and blah, blah, blah, right? And none of those

01:31:47   seem to work as well as the Eero. So you can just extend your Eero spot, I guess, to cover

01:31:52   this conversation. But I like it. I like the concept a lot. And yeah, Apple hasn't done

01:31:57   a whole lot with that. And it does seem like a very Apple-like concept. Oh, just unplug

01:32:01   this in and use an iPhone app and you're done. Right? And like that's, like I could see an

01:32:06   Apple version of that where you take it out of the box and you plug it in and your iPhone

01:32:11   sees it over Bluetooth, you know, LE and says like, "Oh, hey, do you want to set up your

01:32:16   Wi-Fi now?" And you hit yes, like the AirPod connect thing. You know, when you flip, flip

01:32:20   over the AirPod case, it pops up with a little white card. And I could totally see, like

01:32:24   It makes little sense to have an Apple system that works just like that.

01:32:28   But they don't.

01:32:29   And it's still very complex.

01:32:31   And the airport utility is not user-friendly and doesn't work at the time.

01:32:36   It was so much better than what it used to be before, you know, if you were using Cisco

01:32:41   or Netgear or something like that.

01:32:45   But by today's standards, AirPods are a perfect example.

01:32:49   You just open the case and you're not like, it's like, you're not picking like which gigahertz

01:32:53   Bluetooth to use, which one is the least noise.

01:32:56   You're not picking-- like the way

01:32:57   that with airport you're still supposed

01:32:59   to pick between 5 gigahertz and 2.5 gigahertz

01:33:01   and pick a channel.

01:33:05   Why do you have to do any of this?

01:33:06   Why can't the software just figure it out?

01:33:07   And it seems like that's certainly where Eero went.

01:33:09   And that seems like that's the exact description for Google

01:33:14   Wi-Fi.

01:33:16   The thought I had, though, is that right after Google Wi-Fi,

01:33:18   they announced the Google--

01:33:20   what's it called?

01:33:21   The thing that you talked to?

01:33:23   - Google Home?

01:33:24   - Yeah, Google Home.

01:33:25   I don't understand why those are separate products.

01:33:27   Or at least why can't Google Home,

01:33:29   I understand that you wouldn't wanna buy

01:33:30   separate Google Homes to be the pods that extend the WiFi,

01:33:34   but it seems to me like there were two teams

01:33:36   that weren't talking to each other

01:33:38   that should have been talking to each other,

01:33:39   'cause maybe like your one base station

01:33:42   should be the Google Home.

01:33:44   - Yeah, I think the two teams thing is probably right,

01:33:47   but I also think that they're aiming that as,

01:33:51   I mean, they have to be a product that people purchase

01:33:53   that already have Wi-Fi routers and aren't really

01:33:56   looking to buy new ones.

01:33:57   I think that I could conceivably see the technology being built

01:34:00   into it in the future, where it's like, oh, hey,

01:34:02   if you get a Google Home, guess what?

01:34:04   It'll act as a Google Wi-Fi.

01:34:05   You can add on two more, and you'll be golden.

01:34:07   But I don't think that that was their MVP.

01:34:10   The other thought that occurred to me after I thought about it--

01:34:13   that was my first impression, is why

01:34:14   are they showing me two white boxes that you plug in?

01:34:18   Right.

01:34:18   Right.

01:34:19   The other thought that occurred to me is not just in my house,

01:34:23   but I think in most people's houses,

01:34:25   you might want to put them in very different spots.

01:34:27   It seems like the Alexa type devices or the Echo type

01:34:31   devices, a lot of people put them

01:34:33   in the kitchen for obvious reasons.

01:34:35   Or they might put them--

01:34:37   Mine's on my bar.

01:34:39   Sounds like a good location.

01:34:41   And that's not necessarily where your cable connection is coming

01:34:45   in, where you could plug it in by ethernet

01:34:48   just to get it the basic internet signal to begin with,

01:34:52   which is probably in your living room.

01:34:54   - Mm-hmm, yeah.

01:34:55   - So I could see that.

01:34:58   - Yeah, that makes some sense.

01:35:00   - Do you think Apple is going to have something

01:35:02   along these lines?

01:35:03   - Yeah, of course.

01:35:04   - I wonder how they're gonna do it,

01:35:07   and I wonder how imminent it is.

01:35:09   'Cause at this point, at this point now that Google's has--

01:35:11   - If it was later than next year, I would be shocked.

01:35:14   - Right.

01:35:15   I'm thinking--

01:35:16   - I don't think it's this year, personally.

01:35:18   I don't think it's this year either. I think it may be maybe like a March thing next year

01:35:23   Where there's already rumors that there's gonna be new iPads in March

01:35:26   right

01:35:28   Yeah, that makes some sense. I mean we got a you know

01:35:31   if you look

01:35:32   So many of the Macs haven't been updated in so many years that you know later this year's got to be Mac time later this

01:35:38   month maybe even but the

01:35:40   That's all the rumors

01:35:42   You know

01:35:42   But I don't see that it's kind of packed to put it in here and I really see them setting it up in

01:35:49   spring and then selling it into summer and then it becomes like the big Christmas item because it's like

01:35:56   Oh, you have an iPhone this works great with that or you know, whatever the case may be

01:36:00   Yeah, and you know, they're obviously not gonna be first echo is gonna get credit for being first

01:36:05   apples often first, you know, it's you know, you know depending on

01:36:11   on your perception of what a smartphone is.

01:36:14   They were either very late smartphones

01:36:17   or they were the first one to come out

01:36:19   with the first real smartphone.

01:36:21   - Right. - And maybe that's--

01:36:22   - Well, I will tell you, yeah, I'm sorry,

01:36:25   go ahead, I don't need to interrupt.

01:36:26   - I just think that, you know,

01:36:27   it looks weird though now that they're behind

01:36:31   more than one company in this regard.

01:36:33   - Yeah, well, I can say that I think that,

01:36:38   and I think you can say if you had the same experience

01:36:41   maybe a different one than me, but I'll tell you,

01:36:43   Siri works a hell of a lot better when it can hear you,

01:36:47   and the iPhone is not a good listening device at all,

01:36:52   really bad, unless it's really quiet,

01:36:55   which is why people, they just saw these jokes

01:36:57   about Siri not understanding you and blah, blah, blah.

01:36:59   But Apple built their own voice team

01:37:02   because they weren't really happy

01:37:03   with the way that the voice was being interpreted

01:37:06   by the nuance, which is what they were using.

01:37:08   So they built their own team, they made their own software.

01:37:11   And when you couple that with four microphones,

01:37:15   like with the AirPods, and you have two sets

01:37:18   of beam forming, you know, lightly beam forming microphones,

01:37:22   combined with a little bit of, you know, bone conduction,

01:37:25   a little bit of accelerometer to say,

01:37:27   oh, your jaw's moving, you know, it's vibrating,

01:37:29   you're talking, like these signals that it's picking up

01:37:32   and saying, hey, you're talking, let's go, right?

01:37:34   Let me listen carefully and let me filter out

01:37:37   the noise and cancel all that out. It is really reliable. I mean, like, the Siri commands that I

01:37:42   give through my AirPods are incredibly rarely misinterpreted. You know, what happens after that

01:37:47   is a whole other conversation, right? But the actual picking up of the voice is very good.

01:37:52   And that's the Echo's secret sauce. It has seven microphones in it. It's, you know, beamforms those,

01:37:59   the audio coming in to isolate that audio from other audio, which is why I can understand my kid,

01:38:05   you know, and why I can understand me from over facing away from it, towards the stove,

01:38:11   away from it, in the kitchen of 15 feet away, and it still picks it up just fine and starts my timer.

01:38:18   You know, so I think that there's like some technological advancements there that will make

01:38:22   Siri, you know, kind of react and be more responsive that I think people aren't, you know,

01:38:27   picking up on quite yet, but will once it launches. But that's got to be like, if you ask Echo,

01:38:34   if you ask Alexa or they echo something and she doesn't get it or she doesn't hear you,

01:38:40   you feel like a dope, right? Like you feel like a real idiot, like talking to nothing when nothing

01:38:45   responds. So, like the adoption of these things is really going to depend on them answering you.

01:38:50   Because the moment that sort of suspension of disbelief, you know, that you've got a person

01:39:00   on the other end of that artificial intelligence that wants to talk to you is broken, it makes

01:39:05   you feel dumb and people don't like to feel that way. So I think that once you have hardware

01:39:11   that can really, with a concrete surety, pick you up, listen to you, and at least give you

01:39:17   some response, even to say, "Oh, I can't help you," you know, I think it's definitely

01:39:21   going to be interesting. And I think that Apple has some stuff to offer there that isn't

01:39:25   yet public. You know, I think that there are components of Siri that people have not seen

01:39:30   because Apple has chosen not to expose them,

01:39:32   that will be very surprising

01:39:35   when they are actually rolled out or made available.

01:39:39   - That sounds to me like you know something.

01:39:43   (laughs)

01:39:44   - I don't know nothing, Jon.

01:39:46   (laughs)

01:39:47   - I have to say, it's funny 'cause I could talk to you

01:39:50   'cause you and I both have at least,

01:39:52   quote unquote, pre-production AirPods so we can compare

01:39:55   and everybody else is still left to speculate

01:39:56   on what the experience is like.

01:39:57   The longer I go with them, the more I love them.

01:40:00   And I do miss having playback controls on a thing

01:40:05   that I can triple click to fast forward 30 seconds or something

01:40:09   like that, but not too much.

01:40:13   And you can use Siri to say next track, and it works really well.

01:40:19   And there is a delay.

01:40:20   It takes a little bit longer than clicking a button,

01:40:24   but not so much that I mind it.

01:40:25   The one thing I miss on the AirPods compared to either

01:40:32   any previous headphones I've had that have had some kind of controls on the

01:40:34   wires is the volume control because you can't--

01:40:38   you have to use your phone to do the volume

01:40:41   or your watch. You can't even use Siri. Like I tried it, you

01:40:45   double-tip and said, "Siri, turn it up two clicks," and she says, "I can't do that for

01:40:49   you." If you have an-- if you're an Apple Watch

01:40:53   where and you have your Apple watch on it's and I always do when I go running

01:40:56   you start to get used to that and it's like that's where you go to the but even

01:41:01   there it's like if I'm listening to overcast it's like when I first turn my

01:41:05   watch up I've got the workout app is going and I've got a tap a couple time

01:41:10   you know I've got to tap the side button to get to the playback controls so you

01:41:13   can't just go to the watch and tap tap to make it louder because a you know I'm

01:41:19   I'm in a noisy part of the city and there's more traffic.

01:41:22   But other than the volume control,

01:41:24   I like the AirPods better than any previous headphones

01:41:28   that I've used with my phone in every single regard.

01:41:30   - Yeah, it's great.

01:41:32   I mean, obviously the number one question is always,

01:41:34   does it fall out?

01:41:35   And the answer is no, and people refuse to believe you

01:41:38   because there's just nothing to pull them out, right?

01:41:40   There's no mask, there's no cord attached.

01:41:42   They have very little masks themselves.

01:41:45   And even when I get sweaty,

01:41:47   you know, run on the treadmill or whatever,

01:41:49   it doesn't, you know, it's fine, they stay.

01:41:52   I wouldn't recommend them as workout earbuds,

01:41:54   that's why they have the Beats, right?

01:41:55   But they are pretty good.

01:41:56   And so I know some, I have a friend who's like,

01:41:58   in love with the EarPods, right?

01:42:01   He's like, before the EarPods, no headphones fit my ears,

01:42:05   right, and you know, maybe he's weird,

01:42:06   and maybe we're all not weird or whatever,

01:42:08   but he loves them.

01:42:09   So he's like super, super stoked to get the EarPods

01:42:14   because he loves the shape.

01:42:16   but I have people talk to me on the exact opposite spectrum

01:42:19   where they just don't fit their ears at all,

01:42:23   the ear pods, the regular ear pods.

01:42:25   And I'm like, I tell 'em flat out,

01:42:26   "Look, if those don't fit your ears,

01:42:29   "these are not gonna fit either, so don't go there.

01:42:33   "It's just not worth it,

01:42:35   "you're not gonna know whether you're spending the money

01:42:36   "or try 'em on or whatever, here, try these on."

01:42:39   But other than that fit question,

01:42:42   most people just are really excited

01:42:44   and I honestly have not a whole lot of bad things to say.

01:42:47   They're loud, they're crisp, they sound good.

01:42:50   I think personally the sound quality is a little bit better

01:42:53   than an EarPod.

01:42:55   And yeah, I agree with you.

01:42:58   The volume and forward and back track controls

01:43:01   are my biggest peeve.

01:43:02   And if they could find a way to do that with touch,

01:43:04   I would be set.

01:43:06   - Yeah, like if they could keep the double click for Siri

01:43:10   and maybe let you assign triple and quadruple.

01:43:13   Tap, I don't know. I think like a single tap and hold maybe if they can detect a hold. I don't know, you know

01:43:19   Like if they could detect oh you didn't release your finger from it

01:43:23   It seems like they could but that's is of the accelerometer

01:43:25   But it's the only loss for me or only con for me and and your mileage is gonna vary on fit

01:43:30   I don't know what to tell you

01:43:32   But if you know I'm with you if you if you either

01:43:35   Can abide by the wired earbud AirPods from Apple or you even like them you're gonna love the AirPods

01:43:43   Mm-hmm, and it's like I'm

01:43:45   Like the idea I'm at the point already where the idea of having a wire connecting my headphones to my phone

01:43:51   It seems preposterous. Oh my god, it feels so annoying. It's so annoying

01:43:56   It's like so I have the Bluetooth. I have a Bluetooth set of beats the over ears that I noise cancellation

01:44:04   I've used for airplane flights and then I have the Bose like the you know

01:44:10   - The quiet C25s, the QC25, whatever they are, right?

01:44:13   The quiet comforts, which are nice.

01:44:15   And then I have a set of wireless Jaybird X2s,

01:44:19   which technically still have a wire between them,

01:44:22   but they're the workout ones.

01:44:23   Kind of like the Beats configuration, you know,

01:44:25   the workout things.

01:44:26   But the Jaybirds are great.

01:44:26   They're like a really great set of workout,

01:44:29   wireless earbuds.

01:44:30   But the way that these work, I mean,

01:44:33   even the other ones, the other stuff that goes in your ear,

01:44:36   I have never been, you know, hugely fond,

01:44:38   I have a pair of those Heers.

01:44:41   I don't know if you're familiar with this.

01:44:41   - No, never heard of it.

01:44:42   - There's a startup called Here.

01:44:44   - How do you spell that?

01:44:45   - And these aren't, I think just here, like H-E-A-R.

01:44:48   - Okay.

01:44:49   - And the startup, it's not a headphone.

01:44:53   It's a microphone that takes the audio coming in

01:44:58   and filters it for you.

01:45:00   So it's like augmented ears, like cyborg ears.

01:45:04   So you plug 'em in, they have a little microphone

01:45:06   the outside and they grab the sound and process it and put it into your ears. So like let's

01:45:13   say you go to a concert and you want to turn down the volume, you put your ears in and

01:45:17   you just grab your iPhone and go doo doo doo doo doo and it turns down the exterior volume.

01:45:22   It's pretty wild actually.

01:45:23   That's crazy.

01:45:24   Oh no, I love them. I mean it's like if you're at a place where like you know I went to see

01:45:29   Hamilton right and I got stuck up in the rafters like everybody but I just got really lucky

01:45:33   and got an affordable ticket before it really exploded. But you put those things in and

01:45:38   you could filter out the people around you because they're talking quieter and just pick

01:45:43   up the louder noises which is the people speaking from the stage and it feels like they're right

01:45:48   in front of you. It's actually a pretty crazy cool technology. But those are the ones that

01:45:52   I've had the most experience with just sitting in the ear. And I can tell you, they feel

01:45:56   like you feel them, right? They're there. And maybe they'll get lighter and better over

01:46:00   This is just a startup, but the air pods are totally different bag because they're so light

01:46:05   They're so you know

01:46:07   They're not even there you really forget you're wearing them and it's just throwing those in

01:46:11   Picking them out of the case and throwing them in is just the amount of freedom. There is is insane

01:46:16   It's really nice and the battery life is for me has been amazing. I

01:46:19   Almost never remember to charge the damn thing and the case was still at 28% and the headphones were at 100%

01:46:27   So anyway, can't wait for everybody else to get them. But I really the longer I use them the more a big a fan I am

01:46:33   Before we wrap up anything else you want to talk about you want to do you want to quick drop your guess as to who's gonna

01:46:40   buy Twitter

01:46:42   Disney yeah, I mean there's there's an equal so we reported that Disney was looking right so we we asked around and we heard yes

01:46:49   Disney is looking at it has been looking at it for a while

01:46:52   We were we were pretty close on doing it

01:46:55   and then I think Bloomberg or somebody scooped it,

01:46:57   but that's fine, you know, stuff happens.

01:46:59   But, anyhow, we heard it.

01:47:01   The Disney side of things is like,

01:47:03   there's a lot of pluses and negatives,

01:47:05   and it's just where like worlds collide for me, right?

01:47:07   'Cause I'm a huge fan of the company,

01:47:10   you know, what they've done in historical methodology.

01:47:14   These days I can't be a fan

01:47:15   'cause we report on various aspects of the company,

01:47:18   so I'm more just like, you know, fascinated with it.

01:47:21   - Right.

01:47:21   - But I am fascinated with a lot of aspects of that company

01:47:24   from the movies to the TV business to the parks

01:47:29   and on so on and so forth, right?

01:47:32   But I think that it's,

01:47:35   there's some real easy alignments

01:47:38   and there's some real hard cliffs to that happening.

01:47:43   And I just don't know which one would win out.

01:47:46   The biggest one, which I mentioned in our story about it,

01:47:49   was that Twitter is supposed to be agnostic

01:47:54   is when it comes to media companies, right?

01:47:56   Aside from special deals like they cut with NFL

01:47:58   or whatever to broadcast stuff.

01:48:00   But they're supposed to be like,

01:48:01   "Oh hey, we did this with the NFL,

01:48:02   "we can do it with you too."

01:48:03   But Disney's a huge media company.

01:48:05   So if they buy Twitter, are they isolating it

01:48:09   from the rest of the media landscape?

01:48:12   And that's probably the biggest check in the no column.

01:48:16   - I've been saying for years

01:48:18   that one of the most amazing things about Twitter

01:48:19   that I think people overlook is how ubiquitous

01:48:22   the ideas are for people who are famous.

01:48:26   Like if you watch sports or you watch news,

01:48:29   and I watch both sports and especially in election year,

01:48:31   I watch the news, when people come on to commentate on,

01:48:34   you know, who won the debate or what do you think

01:48:37   about Buck Showalter not putting Zach Britton in the game?

01:48:40   They tell you the Twitter name of everybody who's on TV.

01:48:44   They'll say, you know, here's Jimmy Rollins,

01:48:47   former shortstop, here's his Twitter name.

01:48:49   Everybody's Twitter name is up there.

01:48:51   Does that happen?

01:48:52   does TNT Sports put the Twitter handles up

01:48:56   for these people when Twitter's owned by the company

01:48:58   that also owns ESPN?

01:49:00   - Yeah, exactly. - Right?

01:49:02   - Exactly. - And that's a lot of the value

01:49:06   in Twitter to me.

01:49:07   I don't know quite how you connect that ubiquity

01:49:10   and this sort of, this is the default.

01:49:12   Facebook would love to have that, but they don't.

01:49:14   The Twitter @names is a huge thing,

01:49:17   and it's a way to say, hey, if you wanna connect

01:49:19   to this person online, you do it on Twitter.

01:49:22   That's a huge part of the value.

01:49:24   I don't know how you quite connect it to making money,

01:49:26   but it certainly is part of the value.

01:49:28   'Cause to me, fundamentally,

01:49:30   the thing that's valuable is attention.

01:49:32   This is the central, John Gruber's central theory

01:49:36   of the media, is that attention,

01:49:39   attention more than money is the foundation currency

01:49:42   because it's the one thing that there's a limit to.

01:49:45   Each person multiplied by the number of hours a day

01:49:48   that they're awake, that's the total amount

01:49:50   attention that's possible. Twitter has a lot of it. I don't know how you connect it to

01:49:57   monetization, but it's got to be possible. I could see Disney doing it, but I have the

01:50:03   same fear as you where I feel like they could kill the golden goose because just by buying

01:50:09   it, it takes away the ubiquity of the presence that people have.

01:50:14   Yeah, the funny thing is that Twitter shot itself in the foot from almost day one by

01:50:20   obeying the industry's metrics. By treating the MAU as the god of all product decisions

01:50:30   and data. And if it had realized or recognized or embraced early on its nature as a place

01:50:40   for people to have a strong identity and to contribute to a conversation but also a place

01:50:48   that welcomes passive viewership and it's doing that now or trying to reposition itself

01:50:54   as that now but it's hard to do that right you can't you got to sell an advertiser on

01:51:00   the fact that okay we only have 300 or 280 million users or whatever but those 280 million

01:51:05   users are creating a billion users' worth of content, right? And that it's hard to

01:51:12   like, sell that as a package if that hasn't been your premise from the beginning. And

01:51:19   it's rough, you know? You're treating these logged out users trying to now say,

01:51:25   "Hey, these are value." Like the viewer on ESPN who's seeing the tweet, like that's

01:51:31   value, right? It's still attention and still all that stuff. But yeah, you know, monetization

01:51:37   is a huge problem there because it's like, how do you connect those disparate entities

01:51:41   beyond ad tracking and that sort of thing. But I've always felt strongly that Twitter's

01:51:48   biggest play should have been around identity, you know, because like, what do your identity

01:51:53   online used to be, if you were an "online person," it used to be your URL, right?

01:52:00   Like if you were early, early to the internet, you had an email address and a URL or one

01:52:07   or the other or both.

01:52:09   And today, almost nobody has a URL because creating websites is sort of like too much

01:52:14   effort, right?

01:52:15   It's too much anxiety to maintain and expensive and everything else.

01:52:20   Instead, there's so many services that cover so many millions or billions of people that

01:52:25   you can create an identity by simply signing up for one like Twitter and saying, "This

01:52:29   is my identity. And there are people like that on Facebook, but it's much rarer than

01:52:35   on Twitter. Like if you Google almost anybody's name that has any sort of basic activity on

01:52:40   Twitter, their Twitter handle is going to give you everything you need to know about

01:52:44   them, probably, you know, at a glance. Like where they work, what do they do, what do

01:52:50   they tweet about all day, what do they talk about all day, what are their interests, you

01:52:53   know, what are they interested in, what are they not interested in. You could go one level

01:52:57   deeper and look at their faves to see kind of what their tastes are in humor or in, you

01:53:02   know, in news or, you know, whatever, right? Or who they follow, etc. But no other network

01:53:08   on the planet offers that. Facebook doesn't offer that because it was based, its core

01:53:13   base was like, oh, networks of people who already know each other. And Twitter is like

01:53:18   networks of people that, that you're strangers, you know, that don't know each other until

01:53:22   you do, until you look at their profile and all of a sudden you get at least a basic picture

01:53:26   who they are. And that play, I think, is very interesting, and that's something that Disney,

01:53:30   I think, actually has a better ability to understand than a lot of the other buyers

01:53:35   who might want to treat it more of like a marketing channel, you know, or attack that

01:53:41   angle of it, which I don't think is as strong for Twitter's future, and I'm not as bullish about

01:53:45   that. Yeah, I agree. I don't quite see all the dots that connect from here to there where Twitter is

01:53:53   was a thriving Disney property, but my intuition

01:53:58   says that there is a path.

01:54:00   I can't describe it in detail, but my intuition

01:54:03   says that there's a path there.

01:54:06   And obviously, they could screw it up

01:54:07   in 100 different ways, but that there's potential there.

01:54:12   I'm more optimistic than just about anybody else who's--

01:54:14   about Disney owning Twitter than just about anybody else who's

01:54:16   been named.

01:54:17   And I almost feel like it would be better than Twitter

01:54:21   remaining independent at this point because it seems like Twitter is…

01:54:24   Well, I don't think that's an option, to be honest.

01:54:26   No.

01:54:27   I really don't at this point.

01:54:29   And we'll see.

01:54:32   But it smells like it's going to happen soon.

01:54:35   It just seems like, boy, I see reports every couple days about progress being made on this

01:54:39   and action on Twitter's board part, on a part of Twitter's board to start listening

01:54:44   to bids and doing the math and stuff like that.

01:54:47   Right.

01:54:48   - I think that what you end up with is you have,

01:54:51   you have the monetary, you know, the math side of things,

01:54:54   then you have the,

01:54:55   how does it fit, like is it a distraction, right?

01:55:00   'Cause when you're a company as big as Disney

01:55:02   and you have a big pot of money to play with or debt,

01:55:05   you know, that you can borrow on,

01:55:08   to kind of buy what you want and make your own,

01:55:11   choose your own destiny, it at some point becomes

01:55:14   a question of is this additive or is it subtractive?

01:55:18   Like is it a distraction?

01:55:19   Sure, we could buy it, we can afford it.

01:55:21   It makes some sense as a holistic business

01:55:23   and we see how we can maybe make a little bit better

01:55:26   business of it, but is it a distraction?

01:55:28   And one of the things that I like to look at

01:55:31   in historically with Disney is their purchase

01:55:34   of the channel that would become ABC Family,

01:55:38   which was a disaster.

01:55:40   Like it was a boondoggle from the beginning, right?

01:55:43   From the moment the hands were shook in Sun Valley

01:55:46   to the six times it was reprogrammed to try and be like, "Oh, we're going to aim it

01:55:52   at girls. We're going to aim it at tweens. We're going to aim it at 25 to 35." All

01:55:57   of these reprogramming and stuff is just a huge boondoggle to try to get that thing successful.

01:56:01   And they just really went wrong from the very beginning. And it was a distraction. And they

01:56:09   could have probably created it wholesale. It's just a cable channel. And it costs

01:56:13   so much angst and firings and attention subtracted from the rest of the business. And that I

01:56:21   think is the equation that goes to their head when they look at something like Twitter.

01:56:24   It's like, "Yeah, it's cool. It's interesting. It's a property that has a very extremely

01:56:29   unique, amongst all other internet properties, value. But is it a distraction for us?"

01:56:36   And if the answer is yes, it's better not to do it even if all other things said it's

01:56:41   an interesting buy.

01:56:44   It also occurs to me when Disney and their properties

01:56:47   start getting into technology.

01:56:52   Is it occurs to me this anecdote--

01:56:53   I link to it--

01:56:54   I forget when I linked to it.

01:56:55   It was a while ago.

01:56:56   But here's somebody who's referencing my link to it.

01:57:00   Looks like it was back in 2011.

01:57:04   From a book about inside ESPN, those guys

01:57:08   have all the fun inside the world of ESPN.

01:57:10   The story goes that ESPN president George Bodenheimer attended the first Disney board

01:57:14   meeting in Orlando, Florida, just after the company had bought Pixar, the innovative animation

01:57:19   factory, and he spotted Apple CEO Steve Jobs in a hallway.

01:57:22   It seemed like a good time to introduce himself.

01:57:24   "Hi, I'm George Bodenheimer," he said to Jobs.

01:57:27   "I run ESPN."

01:57:28   Jobs just looked at him and said nothing other than, "Your phone is the dumbest fucking

01:57:32   idea I've ever heard," turned and walked away.

01:57:35   (laughing)

01:57:37   - Yeah, that's a great one.

01:57:40   I love that one. - I'll include a link.

01:57:41   They've got a picture to it.

01:57:41   It was, in fact, tying things together.

01:57:43   It was a Samsung phone.

01:57:45   - Of course it was.

01:57:47   - Oh.

01:57:48   All right, we got baseball to watch.

01:57:52   The short episode has gone an hour and 48 minutes.

01:57:55   Anything else you wanted to mention before we drop off?

01:57:57   - No, I'm good, I'm good.

01:57:59   - I can just tell you, I've made last minute

01:58:02   can you do my show request to people before,

01:58:05   but never as last minute as literally this one was.

01:58:08   And I can't tell you how much I appreciate your time.

01:58:11   - My pleasure. - But it's also,

01:58:13   I just feel like it was a perfect week to have you on.

01:58:15   So I thank you, Matthew.

01:58:18   People can get all the panzerino they want at TechCrunch

01:58:21   where he's kicking ass with these scoops.

01:58:23   And then on Twitter, how do you spell your Twitter handle?

01:58:27   - Panzer.

01:58:29   - P-A-N-Z-E-R.

01:58:30   Even though your real surname is spelled with an A in there.

01:58:34   but people will figure it out.

01:58:36   - Yeah, it's extremely confusing.

01:58:37   - People will figure it out.

01:58:38   So my thanks to you and my thanks to the terrific sponsors

01:58:42   we had this week.

01:58:42   We had Fracture, go get your pictures printed on glass.

01:58:47   Igloo, get yourself an internet for your team.

01:58:50   And last but not least, Eero, E-E-R-O,

01:58:53   where you can set up a much better home wifi.

01:58:58   There we go.