The Talk Show

163: ‘Low Grade Scam’ With Joanna Stern


00:00:00   My favorite story of the last few weeks was from your colleagues at the Wall Street Journal

00:00:03   Shalini Rama Shondran and I think I got it now dice K. Wakabayashi

00:00:11   Or did I don't know I don't know how to pronounce I just call him die

00:00:16   They had a story that ran yesterday, I'm sure you saw it that apples quote hard charging negotiations with the TV networks

00:00:28   scrambled any sort of attempt that Apple had to get.

00:00:32   What Apple more or less wanted was to charge people

00:00:34   30 bucks a month.

00:00:35   I guess they would just, just like to have Apple Music,

00:00:38   they'd have Apple TV.

00:00:39   You pay them $30 a month and you get a package

00:00:41   of a bunch of channels and you can watch them

00:00:43   whenever you want.

00:00:44   And there's a couple of things in this story

00:00:47   that really amused me.

00:00:48   I quoted both of them on "Daring Fireball,"

00:00:50   but the one was that Apple wouldn't show

00:00:52   the CEO of Comcast the user interface.

00:00:56   and he said, "How about you just get shit

00:00:58   "on the back of a napkin?"

00:00:59   And Apple officials replied that the software

00:01:04   would be quote, "Better than anything you've ever had."

00:01:06   Which A, wouldn't take much,

00:01:10   and B, sounds a little, it worries me,

00:01:12   it's a little, it's typical Apple,

00:01:14   but it sounds like Donald Trump.

00:01:16   - The back of the napkin?

00:01:17   - No, it's gonna be better than anything you've ever had.

00:01:20   - Oh, it's gonna be better, yeah, believe me,

00:01:22   it's going to be.

00:01:23   You have to preface that with believe me.

00:01:25   - Believe me.

00:01:26   And then the other tidbit that was great

00:01:29   was that when he met with Mr. Britt, the Time Warner CEO,

00:01:34   or no, Time Warner CEO, Jeff Bux,

00:01:37   and some other guy named Britt, I don't know who he is,

00:01:40   but big, big meeting with Time Warner.

00:01:43   Eddie Q shows up, quote, "10 minutes late,"

00:01:45   and was wearing jeans, tennis shoes with no socks,

00:01:50   and a Hawaiian shirt, says a person familiar with the bill.

00:01:54   - Yeah.

00:01:55   - What I love about stories like this is like,

00:01:58   obviously there's so much reporting

00:02:00   that goes into a piece like this.

00:02:01   And it has to be, you know,

00:02:03   everything has to be written straight faced.

00:02:05   I mean, everything is like,

00:02:06   every line is combed over in a piece like this.

00:02:09   But it's like, you want to laugh

00:02:11   and you can only imagine like, what they were laughing,

00:02:14   like what the like sentiment was

00:02:16   when they were writing something like this.

00:02:18   But it's like that whole sentence

00:02:20   and then somebody familiar with the matter.

00:02:22   It's just like, who was the tips?

00:02:23   Who was the source or the tip on that?

00:02:25   - And I've always, I've long said

00:02:29   that ever since I wanted to be a writer,

00:02:31   I've always wanted to be a columnist.

00:02:32   That's all that I've ever aspired to be.

00:02:34   I feel like you're probably in the same boat.

00:02:36   And it's, I have, I don't want to write straight news

00:02:40   like that, never did, but I have so much respect

00:02:43   for the people who do, for exactly what you just said is.

00:02:46   - Right, right.

00:02:47   - How do you?

00:02:48   - The other executives were wearing suits, period.

00:02:52   - Yes, I forgot to add that, which is essential to the story.

00:02:55   - Yeah, no, I mean, and it's funny that Dai

00:02:58   is a really funny guy and he's a great reporter,

00:03:01   but yeah, it's, we also do these front page stories

00:03:06   called A-heads and many of those also,

00:03:10   like the reporting is just like straight face,

00:03:12   but like it's the funniest thing, you know,

00:03:14   Dai's story, he did one on the Apple Watch in the nose,

00:03:17   the nose interaction, forget what it was,

00:03:20   that people use their nose to navigate their Apple Watch.

00:03:24   And the whole story's like not,

00:03:25   it's written in just like a great tone

00:03:28   that's just like, what are, you know,

00:03:30   this ridiculous thing that's happening.

00:03:32   - There is a lot to unpack here though.

00:03:36   It's like, you know, like it's sort of like,

00:03:40   there's like a nightmare you have

00:03:42   where you show up for a thing

00:03:43   and you're terribly underdressed

00:03:45   or you didn't put pants on, you know.

00:03:47   That's, it's a trope, you know.

00:03:49   everybody has that sort of recurring dream.

00:03:51   Eddie Q showing up for this meeting

00:03:54   with jeans and a wine shirt and tennis shoes with no socks.

00:03:58   Eddie Q was not embarrassed at all.

00:04:00   - Right, right, that's the thing.

00:04:01   I mean, many readers probably don't know that,

00:04:03   but people, Apple followers,

00:04:05   or people who have watched interviews with him

00:04:07   or have gotten to meet with him, like both of us,

00:04:10   we know that he really didn't give a shit.

00:04:12   Like, he just got there and he was like, all right.

00:04:15   - Right.

00:04:16   And part of it is Apple's own culture.

00:04:18   Part of it is California culture,

00:04:20   because I think that when Apple deals outside,

00:04:25   it's not just the Valley,

00:04:26   but when Apple deals with Hollywood,

00:04:28   which is Valley versus Southern California,

00:04:32   showing up for a meeting with jeans and sneakers

00:04:35   is not a big deal.

00:04:37   - Right.

00:04:38   - Whereas New York media world is still very,

00:04:42   you wear a suit to a meeting

00:04:43   with the CEO of Comcast or Time Warner.

00:04:47   - Yeah, I mean, not me.

00:04:49   - Right. (laughs)

00:04:50   - I wear sandals, I have a Hawaiian shirt.

00:04:52   - It also brings to mind, I remember,

00:04:55   and I must have been like 12 years old, I don't know.

00:04:57   - I mean, why was he not wearing socks though?

00:04:59   - That is a good question.

00:05:00   - That's like gross, you know?

00:05:02   I mean, like I hate wearing shoes without socks.

00:05:05   Sometimes I have to do it

00:05:06   because I forget my socks someplace

00:05:08   and like I have to get my shoes on.

00:05:09   I don't know really when I have to do it.

00:05:11   I just think it's gross.

00:05:12   - That is my only objection as well.

00:05:14   - Right, I mean.

00:05:15   - Well, and he was photographed,

00:05:16   Eddie was photographed at the courtside at the basketball game at the Golden State game

00:05:21   and he was on the front page. He was wearing sandals. Sandals are good. Yeah, you know

00:05:26   what, I don't like sandals. My thing about him wearing sandals to that basketball game

00:05:29   though is that a lot of times soda gets spilled and and you know, I mean like I feel like

00:05:33   but maybe because when you're courtside, there's like maybe like no soda rule because no soda.

00:05:39   So maybe it's okay. I don't know. I think I'm pretty sure next time I meet with him,

00:05:45   I'll be asking about his feet and how he feels about

00:05:48   the sweat that happens when you wear sneakers without socks.

00:05:52   It's just, there's sweat, your feet sweat.

00:05:55   - Maybe he doesn't have sweaty feet.

00:05:56   - Shoes start to smell.

00:05:57   - Maybe he doesn't. - Everyone does.

00:05:58   It happens.

00:05:59   I wear Toms, I have these Toms shoes.

00:06:01   I don't know if they, I think they make male Toms,

00:06:04   but Toms are the same thing.

00:06:05   You're not supposed to wear them with socks,

00:06:07   but even in there, your feet sweat.

00:06:09   I'm happy we had this conversation about those feet.

00:06:13   - My feet are extremely, I think half of my sweat glands

00:06:18   are in my feet, I have very, very sweaty feet.

00:06:20   - Right, sometimes before I go to bed,

00:06:22   my feet are so sweaty, I put my feet in the shower.

00:06:25   - I've always a recurring theme, (laughs)

00:06:28   it's a recurring theme on the show that in the winter,

00:06:31   I work at home, my feet get cold, I like to wear slippers.

00:06:34   I have a hard time finding slippers that I like,

00:06:36   'cause I don't like open back slippers.

00:06:38   They just go flying off your feet, I like to have the back.

00:06:42   And so a couple years ago, Amy got me for Christmas,

00:06:45   she got me a pair of Uggs slippers, I think they're Uggs.

00:06:48   And they're real, there's like all this,

00:06:50   I don't know what it is, like wool or fake wool,

00:06:54   but all this like fuzzy stuff on the inside.

00:06:57   And you're supposed to wear them with no socks.

00:06:58   And within 24 hours--

00:07:00   - That's a dead animal.

00:07:01   - Within 24 hours, it was all coming out.

00:07:04   I had completely sweated through and destroyed them

00:07:08   in about a day and a half.

00:07:12   My feet are not meant for something like that.

00:07:14   - But those are, they're really comfortable.

00:07:16   - That's what she said, and that's why she got them for me.

00:07:18   And I had to agree that for the few hours

00:07:21   before my sweat started destroying them, I agreed.

00:07:24   But anyway, the whole gist of this story--

00:07:28   - Maybe this is what Apple, on the earnings call,

00:07:31   Tim Cook said how excited he is about products

00:07:34   that are out of the box for them that they're working on.

00:07:36   Maybe sandals. - Footwear.

00:07:39   - Yeah, footwear.

00:07:41   The whole point of this story, though.

00:07:42   - It would be funny, you know,

00:07:43   like there's that huge cult following around sneakers,

00:07:46   right, sort of feels like the same kind of people

00:07:48   that follow Apple in a way.

00:07:50   - Yeah, I could see that.

00:07:51   - You know, they line up for shoes, they line up for phones.

00:07:54   I don't know, just a thought here,

00:07:56   but you would like to move on from the sneakers, I feel.

00:07:59   - Well, but I've noticed, you know,

00:08:01   but people who keep, and they keep their sneakers

00:08:02   like in pristine condition.

00:08:04   - Yeah. - They may not.

00:08:05   - Yeah.

00:08:06   - I saw--

00:08:07   - Sneaker heads, right?

00:08:08   - Yeah, I saw last night I watched Seth Meyers,

00:08:12   Late Night, because it was like live

00:08:15   after the Democratic Convention,

00:08:17   and Colin Jost and Michael Che from Saturday Night Live

00:08:21   were on to talk about it, 'cause they were there.

00:08:23   And Che had on a pair of vintage Michael Jordan,

00:08:28   Carolina blue Air Jordans that were,

00:08:30   I was like, whoa, those are totally,

00:08:33   probably like super expensive.

00:08:34   And of course they were mint condition.

00:08:37   - Yeah, see, I'm not a, I don't,

00:08:40   it sounds very impressive, but I'm not a sneaker.

00:08:42   I'm not a sneaker person.

00:08:43   - Yeah, I know enough about basketball shoes,

00:08:46   just because I used to follow basketball,

00:08:47   but otherwise, no.

00:08:48   Anyway, the whole gist of the story

00:08:51   was not about Eddy Cue's sartorial choices.

00:08:54   It was about Apple's hard-charging negotiations,

00:08:56   and that their stance on this has blocked them

00:08:59   from putting together the package,

00:09:01   being able to offer the package they want to offer.

00:09:03   And I think it's so transparent

00:09:05   that the cable companies are talking to the press

00:09:09   and talking to the Wall Street Journal

00:09:12   to try to press the matter,

00:09:13   and they're making it sound like Apple is being,

00:09:15   I don't know what the word is, arrogant?

00:09:20   Arrogant, maybe?

00:09:21   - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:09:22   - Whereas I think-- - Pompous.

00:09:23   - Yeah, and I think the truth is,

00:09:25   Apple is the one that can afford to wait.

00:09:27   They can wait forever.

00:09:28   They can never offer a TV package, and they'll be okay.

00:09:32   - Right, well, it seems like also there's things

00:09:34   that Apple's asking for, like they won't be upping

00:09:37   the rates of the shows, I guess that's a typical thing

00:09:40   that happens, yeah.

00:09:43   Yeah, they're certainly hardlining to get this

00:09:46   in their favor, as Apple does.

00:09:48   - It's totally different worlds, like the cable world

00:09:50   is a world where it's like, maybe when you sign up

00:09:53   for cable, there's like a promotion where it's like,

00:09:56   hey, for $89, exactly $89 a month, you get this internet

00:10:01   and this TV package.

00:10:04   But then once that promotion's over,

00:10:07   your cable bill just starts going from like 89 to 93

00:10:11   to 96, 72 to $101.32.

00:10:16   You know, like you get these weird bills that are like that.

00:10:18   Apple's world is, if they say it's 29.99, it's 29.99.

00:10:22   And it's not gonna go silently change to $31.23

00:10:27   just so the ESPN can get 5% more.

00:10:30   - Right, actually in Apple's world it's usually no 99,

00:10:33   so it's probably just 29.

00:10:34   - Yeah, exactly, you're right.

00:10:35   Actually I don't-- - Zero zero, right.

00:10:36   I mean, yeah, I just actually went through this

00:10:41   with my cable company.

00:10:42   I'm desperately trying to get my bill down.

00:10:45   I returned my router, I returned the other box,

00:10:47   or the modem, and another box that we had

00:10:49   that we just don't use enough.

00:10:51   And you go in the store and they're sort of like,

00:10:52   "Well, if you sign up for this special deal,

00:10:54   "we can actually knock $20 off your bill a month

00:10:58   "for the next six months."

00:10:59   And it's like, okay, so I'm gonna go through all of that,

00:11:01   but then in six months you're gonna raise it again

00:11:04   probably more to then what I'm paying now.

00:11:06   You know, they do all of these behind the scenes,

00:11:10   frankly they're scams really.

00:11:11   - Yeah, it's a low grade scam,

00:11:14   but it's definitely a, it's a bait and switch.

00:11:17   - Right, I mean mostly just like when I read that article,

00:11:20   I was like, oh, Apple hates the cable companies

00:11:22   as much as we do.

00:11:23   - Yeah. - They wanna work with them,

00:11:26   obviously, but.

00:11:27   And they specifically mentioned that they don't want,

00:11:30   like somebody, you know, unnamed,

00:11:32   but said that we're not like those music guys

00:11:35   who Apple took advantage of.

00:11:37   I just think that they're just not quite

00:11:40   where the music guys were.

00:11:42   Like when, and it is very different

00:11:44   because when Apple started with iTunes

00:11:47   way back last decade, it was Mac only,

00:11:50   and the Mac was very small, and it was no,

00:11:52   we were years away from the iPhone

00:11:57   and any sort of large market share.

00:11:59   And there was, seemingly overlooked in their negotiations

00:12:04   was even the possibility

00:12:05   that Apple might offer iTunes for Windows.

00:12:08   - Right, but also what we didn't have was,

00:12:11   it was like a pre-app world, right?

00:12:14   We listened to music through one service

00:12:17   and that was a local service most of the time.

00:12:20   And so now we live in a world where we're,

00:12:23   and this is kind of, obviously Apple's created it,

00:12:26   but even on the TV, they've really pushed it

00:12:28   that the future's apps, right?

00:12:30   And so for many of these companies,

00:12:32   they already have a solution that works for them, right?

00:12:34   CBS or NBC or, I don't know, FX,

00:12:38   they make you sign in with your cable information

00:12:40   and they've still got this presence there.

00:12:43   Now that makes it really hard for cable cutters, of course,

00:12:46   but they have a presence on these digital platforms.

00:12:49   There seems like less incentive

00:12:51   than when we were in this pre-app world

00:12:54   for them to wanna join it.

00:12:55   - Yeah, and I think that,

00:12:58   and the trend is obvious that it may take a while,

00:13:04   it's just, it applies to so many things.

00:13:07   There's that great Hemingway quote about a character like,

00:13:09   "How did you go bankrupt?"

00:13:10   And it's slowly then quickly.

00:13:13   And that's how all of these things take,

00:13:16   all these disruptions is slowly then quickly.

00:13:18   And it's right now we're at the point where slowly

00:13:21   more and more people are not paying for cable TV

00:13:24   in their house.

00:13:25   I mean, I now bet-- - I need to be one of them.

00:13:27   - Listeners of this show are way off the charts

00:13:29   in that direction.

00:13:30   - Oh, absolutely.

00:13:32   - People who read your column are surely way off the charts

00:13:34   in that.

00:13:35   And they know--

00:13:38   - I need to get behind it.

00:13:39   I just, there's some things can't live without.

00:13:41   - That's how we are.

00:13:42   I mean, for me, it's a couple of sports things.

00:13:45   And for Amy, it's a couple of shows that she likes

00:13:47   that don't have, you know, that they're not,

00:13:51   there's no way to get them otherwise.

00:13:52   - Right.

00:13:53   - But we're close, and I'll tell you,

00:13:56   Jonas, you know, he's 12 years old,

00:13:58   he doesn't watch anything on TV,

00:14:00   except stuff that we make him watch.

00:14:01   Like, get down here and watch Hillary Clinton

00:14:03   give this speech, you know, he doesn't watch anything on TV.

00:14:05   - Wait, you watch YouTube?

00:14:06   - Yep, YouTube and--

00:14:08   - Facebook or whatever.

00:14:09   - No, and Netflix. - Snapchat.

00:14:10   - Netflix. - Netflix, Netflix, right.

00:14:11   - If we-- - Netflix is just,

00:14:13   I mean, this is the summer of Netflix, in my opinion.

00:14:16   I mean, yes, also them raising rates and issues

00:14:19   with their, I don't know, financial situations,

00:14:21   but just the stuff they're putting out right now is great.

00:14:25   - If our Netflix, like if our credit card

00:14:27   that we have on file with them needed to be renewed

00:14:30   'cause the expiration date was up,

00:14:32   Jonas would know within an hour.

00:14:33   - He would get his seven or whatever you pay,

00:14:38   9.99 and dollars in cash and just say, deal with this debt.

00:14:42   - Netflix and YouTube.

00:14:45   And it's a reckoning that is coming for them,

00:14:49   where eventually the gravy train of everybody pays for cable

00:14:54   and everybody frankly pays too much for cable

00:14:58   is going to come to an end.

00:15:00   - Right, right.

00:15:01   Well, we're gonna see some of this play out

00:15:03   with the Olympics in a couple of weeks.

00:15:05   I mean, they are NBC subscribers.

00:15:10   You need your cable information to log in

00:15:12   to a number of different apps.

00:15:14   That's the way they still want to play.

00:15:16   - Yeah.

00:15:16   I'm really, I hope, I have not been following along,

00:15:20   like trying all these betas over the summer,

00:15:22   but I'm really looking forward to,

00:15:24   hopefully everybody getting on board with the Apple TV,

00:15:27   with that thing that they announced at WWDC,

00:15:29   where you can sign-- - Oh yeah.

00:15:30   That's gonna be huge.

00:15:31   - Sign in here, cable thing once,

00:15:33   and then we will vouch for all of these apps

00:15:35   that you are a cable subscriber.

00:15:37   - I know, there's like times where I like,

00:15:39   it happened with the FX app, like,

00:15:41   I was like, put it off, 'cause I was like,

00:15:42   I really want to watch something in here,

00:15:44   and I just don't remember my cable login.

00:15:47   You set up the rest of your other apps on there

00:15:50   and then I'm like, ah, you know, and I spend,

00:15:52   I don't know, I really probably did spend 30 minutes

00:15:54   trying to recover that information and then punching it in.

00:15:56   - There was one a couple of weeks ago,

00:15:57   I think it was HBO, but I might be wrong,

00:15:59   but one of them, I was on the Apple TV

00:16:01   and it forgot, I had already done it

00:16:04   and it made me do it again.

00:16:05   And it wouldn't work on my phone for some reason.

00:16:08   And so I had to actually go upstairs,

00:16:10   which is, I mean, that's cruel,

00:16:11   Going up a flight of stairs at 11 o'clock at night,

00:16:14   it's cruel and unusual.

00:16:16   - In your slippers?

00:16:17   - Yes, in my slippers.

00:16:18   - In your sweaty slippers.

00:16:19   - Right, in my sweaty slippers,

00:16:20   to do it at the desktop, which seemed ridiculous.

00:16:23   So anyway, I think something's going on there, but.

00:16:26   - Well, yeah, it is certainly an interesting report

00:16:31   and humorous report.

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00:18:46   You can't back up too many different places.

00:18:48   But an online backup, just to make sure you have something

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00:19:16   I need to figure out my whole backup situation actually.

00:19:20   - You know what I need to do and I haven't done it

00:19:21   and it's criminal because I tell people to do it.

00:19:23   I need to sign my parents up for Backblaze.

00:19:25   I'm not even gonna make it a gift.

00:19:28   It's not like I'm gonna say,

00:19:30   here, happy Father's Day, you got backup.

00:19:32   I'm just gonna do it next time I'm at their house

00:19:34   and just pay for it and just not even tell them.

00:19:37   - Or you're gonna be like the cable companies

00:19:38   and then raise their rates in like two years.

00:19:40   - Exactly, and start sending my parents a bill.

00:19:43   - Yeah.

00:19:43   - I want to talk to you,

00:19:46   'cause I love your opinions on laptops and tablets.

00:19:50   What do you think is going on with Apple's lineup of Macs

00:19:54   that have not been-- - I hope something.

00:19:56   - Have not been updated in like--

00:19:58   - I'm, I mean, like, I'm eager, obviously,

00:20:02   I love gadgets and I love reviewing things

00:20:04   and I love helping people get better stuff,

00:20:08   but I really care about myself right now

00:20:10   and I have a MacBook Air that, as you know,

00:20:13   I clung to for many years and I love the MacBook Air,

00:20:17   but it's time, it is really time

00:20:19   for me to get another computer

00:20:21   and this thing is really on its last legs

00:20:24   and I need something now.

00:20:26   Like I need something in September or October.

00:20:29   So the timing really works for me, Apple,

00:20:32   to release this new rumored MacBook Pro.

00:20:34   Please, please just do it.

00:20:38   - I feel like-- - And also don't be bad.

00:20:40   Like I need it to be good.

00:20:41   - I feel like there should be like a crew of volunteers

00:20:44   who stands outside Apple stores right now

00:20:46   and when people go in, they say, "What do you wanna buy?"

00:20:48   And if they say they wanna buy like a MacBook Air

00:20:50   or MacBook Pro, they say, "No, no, no, don't do it."

00:20:53   - I mean, I'm happy to take that on.

00:20:54   I just did that in a very public way for the iPhone.

00:20:57   - Yeah, I saw that.

00:20:58   It's, you know, do not buy an iPhone right now.

00:21:01   - I mean, it's just, you know, and for us,

00:21:04   like, and listeners of this podcast and many readers,

00:21:07   you know, it is obvious, but it really is not obvious

00:21:10   to many, many people who ask me every year,

00:21:14   when should I buy an iPhone, should I buy the next iPhone,

00:21:16   should I buy an iPhone right now?

00:21:18   I mean, it's still the most common question I get,

00:21:20   being in this industry, and many people, you know,

00:21:23   will head out to the store in August and go buy a new phone

00:21:28   And I just don't think, you know,

00:21:29   and I especially don't think that the rumors

00:21:32   that this next phone won't be a big update

00:21:34   is even reason to say, okay, fine,

00:21:36   I can go buy an iPhone right now.

00:21:37   It just isn't.

00:21:39   But yeah, I don't really, I mean,

00:21:41   there's very few Apple products

00:21:42   I would let anyone go by right now.

00:21:45   I mean-- - The only one

00:21:46   I would recommend would be the one port MacBook,

00:21:49   you know, which was updated and refreshed

00:21:51   a couple months ago, which is right in line.

00:21:53   But other than that-- - But even then,

00:21:54   even then, I think there's a decision

00:21:56   for many people to make.

00:21:57   Like I'm in this situation where I actually think

00:22:00   that MacBook, it could do, it could be my computer.

00:22:03   I wrote this in the HP and MacBook review

00:22:06   I did a couple weeks ago.

00:22:08   It could be, but I think there could be something else

00:22:11   that's actually gonna meet my needs a little bit better.

00:22:14   And that's a little bit more power and some more ports.

00:22:19   I can make, I could probably make do

00:22:22   with the port situation now.

00:22:23   I got one of these hyperdrive attachments to the MacBook

00:22:25   and I love it.

00:22:26   - Wait, what's that?

00:22:28   - It's, you know, it plugs into the USB-C port

00:22:32   and it's got a SD card reader, it's got two USB ports,

00:22:36   it's got, it's also got a display port,

00:22:39   but it doesn't really work.

00:22:41   - Oh, I think I saw that in a, I think,

00:22:43   I think Dieter Bohn was using that at the keynote,

00:22:48   earlier, earlier, or maybe a competing one.

00:22:49   What's it called, the hyperdrive?

00:22:51   - It's called hyperdrive, I think it's, let's see.

00:22:55   And a lot of people actually emailed me about it after--

00:22:58   It's a pain.

00:23:01   I used a MacBook Air 11 inch, which I loved.

00:23:05   I really did love the size for years, years and years.

00:23:09   It was one of my favorite MacBooks I've ever had.

00:23:12   But I remember the one time I was at WWDC

00:23:15   and I wanted to download all the iOS betas and stuff

00:23:18   that they had released and the Wi-Fi.

00:23:20   There was no way you could possibly-- it was like,

00:23:22   this will take 17 days over Wi-Fi.

00:23:24   And so they had all these ethernet things,

00:23:28   and you could download, and it was like super fast ethernet,

00:23:30   you could download it in like five seconds.

00:23:32   And of course, I forgot to pack my ethernet dongle.

00:23:36   - Yeah. - Eventually,

00:23:37   I found a friend that's lucky that I have,

00:23:40   know lots of people there, and I found somebody who I knew,

00:23:42   and I was like, hey, can I borrow that, and did.

00:23:45   But I just saw somebody, a friend, not a friend,

00:23:49   but somebody who I follow on Twitter,

00:23:50   who was at the Democratic National Convention

00:23:52   here in Philly, and was like,

00:23:53   I need a service like Uber that will deliver

00:23:57   USB ethernet adapters to the convention hall.

00:24:01   - Right, 'cause no one has them anymore.

00:24:03   Yeah, I mean, yeah, this thing's called

00:24:05   the HyperDrive USB Type-C five-in-one hub,

00:24:09   if anyone's interested.

00:24:11   - I will put it in the show notes.

00:24:12   - Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

00:24:14   I think that this next MacBook Pro

00:24:17   is probably the answer for me.

00:24:22   But I don't know, I don't know where it is.

00:24:24   - Mike-- - I mean, it's there.

00:24:24   It's gotta be coming.

00:24:25   I mean, it's been so long, it's gotta be coming.

00:24:28   To me, what's odd is that it didn't come before

00:24:31   back to school, but it wouldn't really work

00:24:33   with Apple's timing on the Macs.

00:24:35   Yeah, I mean, it's a tough situation

00:24:39   to tell students what to buy right now,

00:24:42   because this is a computer that should last them

00:24:45   for the next four years, and I don't think

00:24:47   the MacBook Air is good enough.

00:24:50   Sure, it's definitely the lower end option,

00:24:53   but I don't know, you just want it to be a better product.

00:24:57   - I've said a few times that my really biggest regret

00:25:00   with my interview with Phil Schiller and Craig Federighi

00:25:03   at WWDC was that I didn't bring this up.

00:25:05   I really wanted to, I almost did, and then I lost it.

00:25:08   It just got lost in the flow of the conversation

00:25:11   and it didn't seem right to go back to it.

00:25:12   And I really regret it,

00:25:13   'cause I think it's an important topic

00:25:15   and I really would have been interested

00:25:16   to hear Schiller's take on it.

00:25:18   And the other thing about it is at the time of the interview,

00:25:21   so there's like second week of June, the day after WWDC,

00:25:24   when I was sort of kind of hoping that they'd have a surprise announcement with

00:25:28   a new Mac book pro,

00:25:29   that it was only like a one day old wound in my psyche that they didn't have a

00:25:34   new Mac book pro. I didn't really,

00:25:37   I didn't feel at that moment just how weird it was going to feel this summer

00:25:42   that the whole summer is going to go by. It was like,

00:25:45   It just felt like at that moment in June,

00:25:47   the MacBook Pro was a little old, ready for an upgrade,

00:25:50   and the addition of this summer, and in particular,

00:25:55   especially with, I think, with notebooks,

00:25:57   the thing about summer is, like you said, back to school,

00:25:59   which is a big time to buy notebooks.

00:26:03   Just how weird that would, it feels so much older now.

00:26:09   Like, I know it's only like six weeks after WWDC

00:26:12   right now as we speak, but it feels like it crossed a border

00:26:17   from being a little old to being ridiculously old.

00:26:21   - Yeah, yeah, I mean, and when you look at what Apple's done

00:26:26   like with the rest of the line, it's not there yet.

00:26:30   There's stuff that needs to be flushed out, so I don't know.

00:26:35   I mean, look, I wanna think it's gonna be

00:26:38   during the September event,

00:26:41   but I think there's a lot to cover in the September event.

00:26:44   I don't know.

00:26:45   Well, when do we expect?

00:26:48   - I think the September event, but only because,

00:26:53   or mainly because it's just, when else would it be?

00:26:57   They're not gonna have two events.

00:26:58   And in theory, they could have like a boring update

00:27:03   to the MacBook Pro that just adds an updated CPU and GPU

00:27:08   or something like that.

00:27:09   But if they do that, then it just seems ridiculous

00:27:12   that it took them so long.

00:27:13   - No, I don't think that's happened.

00:27:15   I think there's something else.

00:27:16   - I do too.

00:27:17   - I mean, also, it's there with Sierra, right?

00:27:20   There's some hints in Sierra about things

00:27:23   that should be improved in the hardware.

00:27:25   So maybe then that's the timing.

00:27:30   I don't know in Sierra, did they fall, right?

00:27:32   They just say fall.

00:27:33   Yeah, maybe, I don't know.

00:27:36   I don't have any sources or any insight

00:27:38   to the Mac line right now.

00:27:41   - Yeah, the last two years, I think the schedule

00:27:43   has roughly been a early September event

00:27:46   with the iPhone, new iPhone coming out the next week

00:27:50   and the new iOS coming out at the same time

00:27:52   or a day or two before the phones.

00:27:55   And then the new version of macOS comes out,

00:27:59   and they'll tell you in September that it'll be out

00:28:02   at the end of October or something like that.

00:28:05   - All right, so maybe there's something in October.

00:28:07   Because the question is do they do iPads

00:28:09   at this first event, the iPhone event?

00:28:12   And there's been some rumors of new pro.

00:28:16   A new pro?

00:28:17   I mean, I don't understand how that's really

00:28:19   gonna be updated in a big way,

00:28:20   but I think there's been some leaks of that.

00:28:24   - Well, one thing, when I've speculated about this

00:28:27   on Twitter and other places, people have said,

00:28:29   "No, there's no way they're going to,

00:28:30   "they don't wanna share the stage with the iPhone."

00:28:33   But the truth is the last few years,

00:28:35   they've actually always shared the stage with the iPhone.

00:28:38   They use the fact that the world's attention is on them

00:28:41   for this announcement.

00:28:42   Everybody's iPhone, iPhone, iPhone, iPhone, new iPhone.

00:28:44   And they use it, but spend most of the event on other things

00:28:47   like two years ago, it was--

00:28:49   - Last year was like everything.

00:28:50   - Yeah, last year was Apple TV and the iPad Pro, right?

00:28:54   And the pencil and all the third party apps that already,

00:28:58   you know, they'd given pre-release access to the pencil for.

00:29:01   - Right, yeah, they had the three, you know,

00:29:03   at the end of the event, they had the three big demo rooms,

00:29:05   which was like, honestly, the iPhone was the smallest part

00:29:08   of the thing to see.

00:29:10   I remember being like, oh crap, I gotta go see the iPhone.

00:29:13   And yeah, there was that whole big room for the Apple TV,

00:29:16   the whole big room for the Pro, and then, yeah, iPhone.

00:29:20   - Yeah, and I always take notes on the time,

00:29:22   like how much, when new products come out on stage.

00:29:26   And I remember, I don't think the iPhone

00:29:28   took more than 20 or 25 minutes.

00:29:30   It was like, hey, hello, here's Phil Schiller,

00:29:33   and 20 minutes of here's the new iPhone 6S and 6S Plus,

00:29:37   and then the rest of the show was Apple TV and iPad Pro.

00:29:42   - Yeah, I mean, I think if you look at the hard,

00:29:44   I think there's hardware to come in three places in the fall.

00:29:49   I think it's iPhone, it's Mac, and I think it's Watch.

00:29:54   And I think iPad, the reason I say that

00:29:59   is because of the software, like what we saw at WWDC,

00:30:02   there were clear hints about hardware improvements

00:30:05   that would optimize for the software or vice versa.

00:30:10   I don't feel that way about iPad, but I don't know.

00:30:15   Like with iPad, there's so many software things

00:30:20   that I feel like need to be fixed

00:30:21   or as it moves to the pro,

00:30:25   and I feel like we didn't give a sense of that in iOS 10.

00:30:28   - Yeah, and there've been rumors.

00:30:30   Federico Viticci, who's the, by far and away, go-to guy,

00:30:35   the guy at MacStories, the go-to guy for iPad productivity.

00:30:39   I mean, this guy's been living his life

00:30:41   with all these crazy workflows and stuff like that

00:30:44   on the iPad.

00:30:45   He does all of his work on the iPad.

00:30:47   What he heard was that it's--

00:30:50   I don't know what they're going to number it,

00:30:52   but that it's more or less that the major improvements to iOS

00:30:55   with a focus on the iPad Pro and Pro users

00:30:59   is sort of like an iOS 10.1 type thing

00:31:01   that might be like January or February.

00:31:04   - That's a great report or rumor.

00:31:07   Does that mean that would make more sense?

00:31:10   - I don't know how much of that though is wishful thinking,

00:31:12   like because we all want them to like--

00:31:15   - So true.

00:31:16   Whose podcast was I on where I was like,

00:31:20   I feel like many times Apple rumors

00:31:23   are just what people want.

00:31:25   like the iMessage for Android rumor.

00:31:29   We should talk about that 'cause I think both of us

00:31:32   sort of were hoping for something like that at WWDC.

00:31:35   And it was pretty unreliable sourcing on that.

00:31:40   But it's like everyone wanted it.

00:31:42   So everyone said, yeah, this is a rumor that people wrote it.

00:31:46   And I mean, I'm not saying it's unreliable.

00:31:48   Maybe somebody really did have good sourcing on that.

00:31:51   But that felt like one which was like,

00:31:53   oh yes, that's what I want.

00:31:55   - It was Mac Daily News, which is a weird website

00:31:59   that has been around forever.

00:32:02   I'm almost certain it predates during Fireball.

00:32:04   I think it's been around since the late '90s.

00:32:07   And it's, I don't know if he's secret,

00:32:11   and I don't even know if it's really a he, I don't know.

00:32:13   It's like, but whoever it is who writes it

00:32:15   never puts a byline on it.

00:32:17   So when I link to that rumor,

00:32:19   and he doesn't usually have news,

00:32:22   it's usually more like he points to things elsewhere.

00:32:24   Yeah, he writes, he'll usually link to my stuff. I didn't realize that's where it started.

00:32:28   Yeah, he, he, he said, you know, it was his original thing that he heard from a reliable source that Apple's working on iMessage for Android, and that it's going to come out at WWDC. And so when I linked to it, I was like, because I always like to put the name of whoever wrote it, like the reporter, you know, I don't like to just say the Wall Street Journal says I like to say, you know, here's the reporter writing for the Wall Street Journal. Right? Because I think that's

00:32:54   important. And so for his I wrote, whoever the hell it is

00:32:57   who writes Mac, Mac Daily News. I have heard I can say, I haven't

00:33:05   seen it personally. But I have spoken to people at Apple who

00:33:08   have seen the mock ups of iMessage for Android. So I don't

00:33:12   know that it exists like that they have like an app that's

00:33:15   been made, but there is absolutely been consideration

00:33:19   of it. Yeah.

00:33:19   But the guy, I think it makes sense. And Cook has said, and I

00:33:24   I forget, there was two interviews where he said,

00:33:27   we are making it a priority to bring our services

00:33:31   to other platforms.

00:33:33   I think it was around the music launch

00:33:36   or something around then.

00:33:38   - What I heard, and this makes total sense

00:33:42   and sounds very happily,

00:33:43   was that it was a series of 10 mock-ups

00:33:46   of what I messaged, complete mock-ups

00:33:48   of what iMessage for Android would look like,

00:33:50   ranging from like on one would be,

00:33:54   just looks exactly like the iOS version.

00:33:58   And 10 looks as much like pure,

00:34:02   what's the Google UI theme called?

00:34:07   - Material design. - Material design.

00:34:09   As pure material design as possible

00:34:12   with like two through nine being a continuum

00:34:15   of how much it looks like that.

00:34:17   Which is also to me an interesting thing

00:34:20   in terms of the difference between Google and Apple,

00:34:22   where Google stuff on iOS is very popular,

00:34:25   but yet really looks a lot like material design.

00:34:28   And Apple Music on Android, I think,

00:34:31   is actually pretty, you know,

00:34:33   on that scale of one to 10,

00:34:34   I think is sort of like a seven or an eight.

00:34:36   It's much more Android-like than iOS-like, to my eyes.

00:34:41   - Yeah, I actually can't say I've ever used it, so.

00:34:44   - Well, I've installed it on my little--

00:34:46   - I've seen the screenshots.

00:34:48   I just called it and poked around just to see

00:34:50   what the sharing sheet looks like and stuff like that.

00:34:52   But anyway, and here's my argument for it.

00:34:55   My argument for putting some credibility on it is,

00:34:58   like when that rumor leaked, a lot of people wrote to me

00:35:00   and said, "No way would Apple do this

00:35:02   "because they sell hardware.

00:35:04   "It behooves them to keep iMessage proprietary."

00:35:08   But my answer to them is nobody buys an iPhone

00:35:09   to get iMessage.

00:35:11   It's a nice thing to have once you have an iPhone

00:35:13   and you're in the Apple ecosystem, but nobody buys it.

00:35:16   That's not a selling point.

00:35:17   It's just a nice thing you get afterwards.

00:35:20   I think where Apple could make some money on this

00:35:22   is if they add payments to iMessage.

00:35:25   If I can send you money by Apple Pay over iMessage,

00:35:28   then I think it makes all the sense in the world

00:35:30   for there to be an Android version.

00:35:31   - Right.

00:35:32   I do question nobody buys an iPhone 'cause of iMessage.

00:35:36   I think it is one of the lock-in apps

00:35:40   that sort of, like, I wouldn't consider going

00:35:43   to an Android phone mostly because of iMessage.

00:35:47   Like I have a family conversation,

00:35:49   I have a friend conversation,

00:35:51   all of these groups in my life,

00:35:53   and they're on iMessage.

00:35:54   - Well, that's a good point.

00:35:55   - And I don't think I can get them all to pick up

00:35:58   and go to WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger.

00:36:02   But look, I don't think,

00:36:04   I don't know enough about the market

00:36:06   of how big that market is

00:36:08   for people who feel like iMessage is the reason.

00:36:11   There's plenty of other great things about an iPhone

00:36:15   that is probably why they have it.

00:36:17   - Good point, I actually, I'm gonna say

00:36:19   that you changed my mind.

00:36:21   - I changed your mind?

00:36:21   - Yeah. - That happens.

00:36:23   - Because you know what, I was too focused

00:36:25   on the upfront idea of buying an iPhone.

00:36:28   Whereas once you have an iPhone and you're used to iMessage,

00:36:31   it absolutely is a reason that you'd be

00:36:33   a little reluctant to switch, right?

00:36:35   So it's the lock-in angle more than the upfront angle.

00:36:39   Like once you have it, you don't wanna lose it.

00:36:41   - Right, like I just couldn't.

00:36:42   Like even when I'm reviewing an Android phone,

00:36:46   I try, you know, I'll put my SIM in,

00:36:48   but I'll still keep my iPhone on Wi-Fi or whatever

00:36:52   because I gotta get my iMessages

00:36:55   and talk about my syncing with my Mac, but you know.

00:36:58   - I think that like many times, I think Apple,

00:37:02   it's not like Apple doesn't enjoy lock-in features,

00:37:05   but I don't think that they prioritize them

00:37:07   over other things.

00:37:08   And I don't think that,

00:37:10   I think whatever lock-in advantages they see

00:37:12   with iMessage being iOS only for mobile

00:37:16   could easily be overruled by the money they could make

00:37:21   by having Apple Pay as a device-to-device payment method.

00:37:25   But there is a trade-off there.

00:37:29   There's definitely a trade-off.

00:37:30   - I mean, I'm going through right now.

00:37:31   It's just like, I wish that, I mean,

00:37:33   and maybe it will be with the new iMessage and iOS 10,

00:37:36   like Venmo will be easily integrated into the,

00:37:39   what are they called, message apps.

00:37:41   But I don't see why Apple doesn't do it itself.

00:37:45   You know what I mean?

00:37:46   Like, why doesn't it just power through Apple Pay?

00:37:50   I say I want to send $15 to Gruber,

00:37:53   and inside an iMessage window,

00:37:57   I hit touch ID and it goes through.

00:38:00   - Yeah, I think it definitely should.

00:38:02   - Right, it should just happen.

00:38:04   I don't know, I'm writing, my column for next week

00:38:06   is all about the chip card disaster,

00:38:09   and so I'm very, very into payments right now.

00:38:14   - I love payments.

00:38:15   I love, I have Apple paying everywhere.

00:38:18   Yeah, it's just great.

00:38:20   - I was just talking about this last week on my show

00:38:24   with Glenn Fleischman that it somehow,

00:38:27   I don't know if it just is coincidence,

00:38:30   but a whole bunch of places here in Philadelphia

00:38:32   have just upgraded their terminals

00:38:36   and put in the chip readers.

00:38:38   And they all have handwritten stickers.

00:38:41   - Yeah, yeah, no chip, chip not working.

00:38:44   Chip doesn't work yet, no chip yet.

00:38:46   - Don't chip here.

00:38:47   Yeah, I'm like, I've spent a lot of time

00:38:50   reporting this story.

00:38:52   I'm excited about it 'cause it's been such a disaster

00:38:55   in New York too.

00:38:56   It's been a national disaster.

00:38:57   It's a headache.

00:38:58   But I actually think,

00:39:01   I'm not gonna spoil my column here,

00:39:03   but maybe I will. - Yeah, you could give us a--

00:39:05   - Basically, I think that this will push us all

00:39:07   to use our phones.

00:39:09   It's actually the best thing that could have ever happened

00:39:11   to Apple Pay and to Android Pay

00:39:13   because all of the terminals that are being installed

00:39:16   have NFC in them.

00:39:17   And so it's basically a software upgrade

00:39:20   on the point of sale people, companies have spoken to,

00:39:25   to enable that for the retailers.

00:39:28   - Yeah, and the thing that's interesting to me

00:39:30   is that you don't need to see the Apple Pay logo

00:39:32   for Apple Pay to work.

00:39:33   It's just like the one that just looks like a little,

00:39:36   almost looks like a WiFi symbol.

00:39:38   And it always works.

00:39:40   There was one time-- - It should work, yeah.

00:39:41   - There was one time last week

00:39:42   where it didn't work for me at Starbucks.

00:39:44   It gave me, I don't know, I got in some kind of circle.

00:39:46   But then the next day I went back and it worked again.

00:39:50   With no Apple Pay logo on the Starbucks one.

00:39:52   - Right, yeah, it's weird because Starbucks

00:39:55   does support Apple Pay and they never have signs

00:39:57   that say we have this there.

00:39:58   And that's one of the things I'm writing in this piece

00:40:00   is that set up your phone for Apple Pay

00:40:02   and just try it first.

00:40:04   I mean, you're already gonna lose a lot of time

00:40:06   with the chip, I get it, but it's kind of like

00:40:10   the same amount of time to just try it.

00:40:12   If it doesn't work, you have your credit card.

00:40:14   - And it's so funny because Apple Pay,

00:40:18   what was it, two years ago where it first came out?

00:40:20   - Yeah, and it's set.

00:40:22   - And Whole Foods had it and I'd use it there

00:40:24   and I'd get the, wow, what was that?

00:40:26   You know, like, holy heck, what are you doing there?

00:40:28   And now all of a sudden that it's working

00:40:30   at all these other places, I'm getting it all over again.

00:40:32   Like people who've never seen Apple Pay,

00:40:33   and they're like, what did you just do?

00:40:34   And I'm like, oh, it's called Apple Pay.

00:40:36   You'd like just take a picture of your credit card,

00:40:39   Go to the Wallet app, take a picture of your credit card,

00:40:42   and then you can just go up to places

00:40:43   and just put your finger on the thing.

00:40:44   And they're like, that is the coolest thing I've ever seen.

00:40:47   - Yeah, I think a lot of people don't even know

00:40:48   that it's there.

00:40:49   And especially also now that it's gonna probably work

00:40:54   more on more and more phones.

00:40:55   I think the chip thing has been a disaster,

00:40:59   but I think there's a silver lining in it.

00:41:01   - I noticed, it was very interesting to me

00:41:04   as a user experience critic.

00:41:08   I bought some shorts at J.Crew and they had the chip thing.

00:41:12   - Your shorts did?

00:41:15   - No, the terminal.

00:41:16   And I put my credit card in for the chip

00:41:22   and then went through the chip process.

00:41:24   And when it was done, it was like authorizing,

00:41:27   you wait a second, and then when it was done,

00:41:29   it made this terrible noise like,

00:41:31   (imitates buzzer)

00:41:35   And on the little terminal, it says,

00:41:36   "Remove card now, remove card now."

00:41:39   It's in all capital letters.

00:41:40   And so somebody decided that to make sure

00:41:43   nobody forgets their credit card in the thing,

00:41:45   we better make a scary sound.

00:41:46   It's the complete opposite of Apple Pay,

00:41:50   where when Apple Pay is confirmed, you get this beautiful,

00:41:53   I sometimes-- - It's so funny,

00:41:55   I'm going through the video right now

00:41:56   and I'm trying to collect these sounds.

00:41:59   So we're gonna like, we actually have to hold the mic up

00:42:02   at the register to get the sounds,

00:42:05   but you're totally right,

00:42:06   I know exactly what you're talking about.

00:42:07   - So with Apple Pay, you get this beautiful ding

00:42:10   and it just feels like, hey, you just did something cool.

00:42:13   You're living in the future.

00:42:14   And with the chip, you get like this,

00:42:16   it sounds like the Star Trek, you know,

00:42:18   red alert when the Klingons are attacking,

00:42:20   like you're about to die.

00:42:21   - Right, no, the whole situation is just like,

00:42:25   who, I mean, it does feel like taking 15 steps back

00:42:29   with the whole payment system.

00:42:30   It's like, I get it secure, but like,

00:42:33   I'm having this hugely awkward 10 seconds

00:42:35   where I don't really know what to do.

00:42:37   Yeah, I've also, I mean, New York City store clerks

00:42:43   are sort of fed up with me,

00:42:44   'cause I've been going into stores

00:42:46   and doing six methods of payment.

00:42:49   So I collect all this stuff and I'm like,

00:42:51   I'm gonna actually need to put this on six separate cards.

00:42:54   (laughing)

00:42:56   I did it at Trader Joe's,

00:42:57   which is typically the longest lines in New York City.

00:43:00   And the woman was just dying.

00:43:02   She's like, this is so cool, who's gonna win next?

00:43:05   (laughing)

00:43:07   But yeah, so I'm payment obsessed, but--

00:43:10   - I look forward to it.

00:43:11   I think that it's just so interesting to me

00:43:14   that it seems like Apple Pay was ahead of its time

00:43:19   because it's already here and ready to capitalize

00:43:22   on this seemingly mass turnover in point of sale terminals

00:43:27   that's happening right now.

00:43:28   - Yeah, and it's actually, I've been thinking back on this

00:43:31   because now being in the industry for almost a decade,

00:43:35   you sort of get to really see those moments

00:43:38   when a company does, as it usually typically is,

00:43:41   Apple, takes what has been going on

00:43:44   and makes it really, really seamless.

00:43:47   And I was thinking back to Google Wallet.

00:43:50   I was one of the people who wrote about

00:43:52   the first impressions of Google Wallet.

00:43:54   And it was like this hugely clunky thing

00:43:57   where you had to hold the phone up to the right thing,

00:43:59   you had to launch the app, it only worked on the Nexus.

00:44:03   What was it, the Nexus?

00:44:05   Might've been just the Nexus, it was the Samsung Nexus.

00:44:08   And it only worked at like one retailer in the country

00:44:11   and it just didn't work, right?

00:44:12   And then, so you had a couple of iterations of that

00:44:15   and then Apple Pay comes out of whatever,

00:44:18   it's actually probably like four years later,

00:44:20   Apple Pay requires the fingerprint, it works really well,

00:44:24   it launches the thing and then we have Samsung Pay

00:44:26   that basically does the same thing even better

00:44:29   because it works at more places.

00:44:31   And we have Android Pay that also does the same thing.

00:44:33   So, you know, there's,

00:44:36   took a little bit of time for us to get here

00:44:38   and there's certainly a uphill battle

00:44:40   as a lot more retailers have to try and support this,

00:44:44   but it really does feel like there was this turning point

00:44:46   with Apple Pay.

00:44:47   - Yeah, I really wanna see this NFC stuff go elsewhere too.

00:44:52   Like I really wanna see the airports switch

00:44:56   from those infrared scanners to NFC.

00:45:00   I hate, I just hate putting my phone down,

00:45:03   like when they want you to like let go of your phone

00:45:05   and put it on the glass.

00:45:06   I don't like to let go of my phone.

00:45:07   You know what I mean?

00:45:08   - Right. - Don't let go.

00:45:10   Just let me put it near.

00:45:11   - And I so badly wanted the subways and metro cards.

00:45:15   It's just, I'm constantly not sure

00:45:18   a bunch of money's on my card and you lose the card.

00:45:21   Yes, absolutely. Yeah, there's so much more potential. And I mean, I really do think at

00:45:27   some point, you know, the phone is obviously the wallet, but there's just, you know, in

00:45:33   terms of identification as well.

00:45:34   All right, let me take another break here and thank our next sponsor. It is our good

00:45:39   friends at igloo igloo software.com slash TTS, the talk show TTS. Anybody who's worked

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00:47:28   My thanks to iglo.

00:47:30   A couple other things, and you've been writing about them.

00:47:33   wrote, I thought, a really interesting column on the $50, I forget what it's called, the

00:47:40   Blue R1 HD, which is kind of a mouthful. This is the phone that is made by a company called

00:47:46   Blue and Amazon is selling it for 50 bucks. And how much is the one with more storage?

00:47:51   60 bucks with ads.

00:47:53   It's just so funny. Like with Apple, it goes up $100 to get

00:47:58   more. Right? Yeah. It goes up $10.

00:48:01   I know it's Yeah, not 100

00:48:05   $60 pretty decent Android phone. And the biggest catch is that

00:48:11   when you're the lock screen is full of Amazon's special offers.

00:48:15   Yeah, it is the catch a big one.

00:48:18   (muffled speaking)

00:48:21   - I think that Amazon could have

00:48:23   some serious success with this.

00:48:25   I don't know, I don't wanna bet on it,

00:48:27   because I feel like Amazon's never really been able

00:48:29   to sell phones, but I feel like if anything's gonna work,

00:48:32   it's this.

00:48:34   - Yeah, yeah, well, I mean,

00:48:35   I think if they had some higher end phones with this model,

00:48:41   it could be really interesting.

00:48:42   I think in these lower end cases, I think,

00:48:45   Certainly there's good substitution or burner phones

00:48:49   in a way, like if you've broken,

00:48:52   this is actually the CEO of Blue told me this,

00:48:54   that one of their biggest markets is people who break

00:48:56   iPhones or Galaxy phones and don't have the money

00:49:00   right away to go buy a new one,

00:49:02   especially now that people are buying phones outright

00:49:04   and might not have insurance, et cetera.

00:49:06   So they buy these phones and sort of hold onto it

00:49:08   for a couple months, or it's used for travel

00:49:12   or it's used for kids.

00:49:13   So there's sort of like lower end phones in that sense.

00:49:17   But yeah, I think for Amazon,

00:49:20   this is sort of makes the most sense.

00:49:23   And even I think even without the ads,

00:49:26   I spoke to an analyst, even without the ads,

00:49:29   they could probably stand to bring down the price

00:49:31   and take a hit if they're really loading up

00:49:33   with some of their services.

00:49:36   'Cause when you get the phone, you log into Amazon

00:49:39   and it sort of logs you into all the Amazon apps.

00:49:42   So, you know, music and Alexa and--

00:49:45   - Kindle. - Shopping and Kindle,

00:49:47   yeah, exactly.

00:49:48   And it's a pretty good experience

00:49:51   for if you're really all in on Amazon.

00:49:53   - And it seems so much better than the Fire Phone

00:49:59   that they tried like two years ago,

00:50:02   which really was, I mean, hats off to them

00:50:04   for trying something new,

00:50:05   but it just seems like that whole project

00:50:07   went way off in the rails once they started going

00:50:10   in the direction of having the user interface

00:50:13   that tilts in 3D as you move the phone.

00:50:15   It's like, you know, cool demo,

00:50:18   but like terrible idea for actual usability.

00:50:21   And they were too close to it to recognize that

00:50:24   and actually brought it to market, you know?

00:50:26   - Yeah, and they also were cutting off Google services,

00:50:28   which was just like, what are you, you know,

00:50:32   in many ways, Amazon's a perfect complement

00:50:34   to Google on the phone, but it's not a replacement.

00:50:38   - Right, because Amazon doesn't offer email, right?

00:50:41   - Yeah, yeah, or what maps would Amazon offer?

00:50:46   - Calendar, right, it's like with the Alexa,

00:50:52   what's my device called when I talk to my Alexa?

00:50:55   - Echo?

00:50:56   - Yeah, my Echo. - Your Echo, yeah.

00:50:57   - I just wanna call it my Alexa.

00:50:59   - My Alexa, yeah.

00:51:00   - If you wanna get your calendar on there,

00:51:02   the best, really the only integrated calendar

00:51:05   is Google Calendar, 'cause Amazon

00:51:06   doesn't have a calendar product.

00:51:08   - Right, and in terms of Amazon's bottom line

00:51:11   in trying to get you to buy things,

00:51:13   Google doesn't try us to really get us to buy things

00:51:17   other than it's sort of the ads it wants us to get to.

00:51:20   I mean, with Amazon, that is sort of integrated experience

00:51:24   of books and movies and music.

00:51:27   I mean, yes, obviously Google also has their solution there,

00:51:30   but it's not the first thing that comes to mind

00:51:31   when I think about Google.

00:51:33   Yeah, so I mean, it's a pretty good experience

00:51:36   for an Amazon user, you know,

00:51:39   I wasn't crazy about the ads on the lock screen.

00:51:41   I just think it's a pretty personal thing.

00:51:44   And it's, I mean, it's funny.

00:51:45   You kind of like, you know,

00:51:46   you wanna keep looking to see what the next one's gonna be.

00:51:49   But I feel like that would get a little old.

00:51:51   - You've got your dog on your lock screen, right?

00:51:54   - I have my dog on my lock screen, of course.

00:51:56   - And so when you're trying the Blue Phone

00:51:59   and instead of seeing your dog,

00:52:01   you see an ad for detergent.

00:52:04   I was seeing photos of other dogs that are not as cute

00:52:08   because I was getting ads for dog food.

00:52:11   - Oh, so that's a little too on the nose.

00:52:16   - I know, and they were not cute dogs.

00:52:20   So, you know, it's yeah, I mean,

00:52:22   but there are other ones too, which I was like,

00:52:24   I got one for like a dietary supplement

00:52:26   and it's like, what are you trying to tell me Amazon?

00:52:28   And then one of them was for a typing tutor

00:52:31   And it was like, why would I-- I'm a great typer.

00:52:34   I'm the best typer I know.

00:52:37   Just like Donald Trump.

00:52:39   Yeah.

00:52:40   You actually are.

00:52:40   I have seen you type.

00:52:41   You are.

00:52:41   Believe me, I'm a great typer.

00:52:44   Love typing.

00:52:47   It is true, though.

00:52:48   You do take those things personally.

00:52:50   Yeah, like, fuck you.

00:52:51   What are you talking about, Amazon?

00:52:52   I don't need to go on a diet.

00:52:54   I mean, I probably do, but whatever.

00:52:56   I don't need Mavis Bacon telling me--

00:52:59   But it's definitely interesting.

00:53:01   And I mean, what's really interesting

00:53:03   is how cheap that hardware is and how impressive

00:53:07   it is for the price.

00:53:08   - I'm impressed that their CEO was so honest with you,

00:53:12   that this is a phone people buy when they can't afford to,

00:53:17   they just broke their two year old $700 iPhone or Galaxy.

00:53:21   - Yeah, I mean, at a $50 price point,

00:53:22   but they have phones at $130 with probably not great cameras

00:53:27   but certainly good enough for many people.

00:53:30   And they're selling a lot of those too.

00:53:33   And there's this whole phenomenon

00:53:34   happening in Android phones.

00:53:35   The best Android phones right now are $400.

00:53:39   They're great.

00:53:40   This new OnePlus is amazing for the price.

00:53:45   Great camera, fingerprint sensors work, good builds,

00:53:48   good screens.

00:53:49   When you want to go up and you want to get the iPhone

00:53:54   equivalent in Android or Samsung,

00:53:56   that's what you're paying $650 for.

00:53:58   But look, if you want a good phone

00:54:00   and you want to pay $400, you're getting an Android phone.

00:54:04   - It's funny-- - I guess you're getting

00:54:05   an SE, right?

00:54:07   I mean, SE is, what is an, iPhone SE costs $450?

00:54:12   - Yeah, $499, I forget.

00:54:16   Maybe $399, I think it might start,

00:54:17   but that is 16 gigabytes.

00:54:19   So I always, I just pretend like it doesn't exist.

00:54:23   - Right, right. - I think it's like $499

00:54:24   to get a reasonable amount of memory.

00:54:26   - Well, that was my scoop of the summer.

00:54:27   That was my, you know, the next iPhone

00:54:30   will start at 32 gigabytes, my sources say.

00:54:33   - Oh, that's great news.

00:54:34   - Yeah.

00:54:35   - That is, I hope you're, I really hope you're true.

00:54:39   - I mean, I reported it in that piece on, you know,

00:54:42   don't upgrade your iPhone right now

00:54:43   or don't buy an iPhone right now.

00:54:44   It was sort of hidden in there,

00:54:45   but that was the best I could dig up on the new iPhone.

00:54:49   - I missed that, but that is actually wonderful.

00:54:51   I would have bet on that.

00:54:52   I have no inside information on that whatsoever,

00:54:54   but it's just my gut feeling that it's just preposterous,

00:54:58   if not. - Yeah, and I think

00:55:00   Apple heard that, but I think also the cost of storage

00:55:03   is so down that it doesn't affect their bottom line anymore

00:55:05   to just give us 32.

00:55:07   The question, and what I couldn't get sources on

00:55:09   was sort of the tiers that would be happening after that.

00:55:13   Obviously there's these rumors

00:55:14   that it will go all the way up to 256,

00:55:16   and I believe that.

00:55:17   So, you know, maybe-- - I do too

00:55:20   because of the camera, in my opinion.

00:55:23   - It's the single biggest reason is that these cameras,

00:55:26   the still images are like, if you have live picture on,

00:55:30   they're like 13 megabytes, I think.

00:55:33   - Yeah, this was my argument in my success review last year,

00:55:37   which was that two things absolutely need to be improved,

00:55:41   and number one was storage, or number one was battery life,

00:55:44   and number two was storage,

00:55:45   and it was because the camera had gotten better,

00:55:48   then they had added 4K video,

00:55:51   and we were still stuck with a base of 16.

00:55:54   - 4K video at a 16 gigabyte storage card,

00:55:59   it just does not, it doesn't jibe.

00:56:02   - And look, it's not enabled out of the box,

00:56:04   but Apple was marketing that this was a 4K capable phone,

00:56:09   and they were certainly, I mean,

00:56:11   the biggest marketing point was the live photos,

00:56:13   which were three times the size of your regular photos.

00:56:15   So, you know, give us the storage,

00:56:17   and it sounds like we're gonna get the storage,

00:56:19   so I'll stop complaining.

00:56:20   - Yeah.

00:56:21   - I don't know if I'll stop complaining about battery life,

00:56:23   but we'll see about that.

00:56:24   - Yeah, so it's 499 for the 64 gigabyte SE,

00:56:28   and it is 399 for the 16 gigabyte SE.

00:56:32   - All right, so, yeah.

00:56:35   All right, so there's decent,

00:56:38   a decent value in comparison to the $400 Android phones

00:56:44   on the Apple side.

00:56:45   - Yeah.

00:56:47   I think that's so unbelievable that Blue just admits that,

00:56:50   you know, hey, that's what these, you know,

00:56:51   some of the market for this is people

00:56:52   who just need a stopover phone.

00:56:55   Just pop your SIM in there and get by for a while.

00:56:58   - Yeah, you know, I actually, I might end up buying one,

00:57:01   'cause what I usually do is I have this new process,

00:57:04   which I wrote about last year,

00:57:05   which is that I will sell my iPhone about a month ahead

00:57:09   of the new launch to make back a good amount of money on it,

00:57:14   and then I'll put that money towards the next iPhone

00:57:17   instead of doing these upgrade plans.

00:57:18   this has just worked for me and I'm lucky enough

00:57:21   to have enough phones lying around that I have a phone,

00:57:24   a loaner phone for the month of August or September.

00:57:28   But the blue is actually a great option for people

00:57:31   who are just like, I know I'm gonna get the next iPhone,

00:57:34   I wanna make 500, 550 depending on what size phone you have

00:57:39   and sell it at the end of August or beginning of August

00:57:43   and use the blue phone.

00:57:45   - Yeah.

00:57:47   I also think, and you were saying about how a lot of the Android phones all have good

00:57:52   screens, all have good cameras.

00:57:54   I've noticed that too, and it's not surprising because I think that this is the single most

00:58:00   competitive market in all of consumer electronics.

00:58:04   Everybody has a...

00:58:07   I just call them phones now, but everybody has a smartphone.

00:58:11   It's funny how the technology, the water finds its own level fairly quickly, where just a

00:58:16   few years ago, I mean, I remember that even the top of the line Android phones had the

00:58:21   worst color on those OLED screens like it. And for someone picky like me, it was just

00:58:27   unbearable, like the way that like pinks would, I remember the flicker logo, it would like

00:58:33   sear your retina because of that pink on the flicker logo because it like hit the sweet

00:58:38   spot of OLED where it just like went off the charts in terms of being like super saturated.

00:58:43   - Yeah, that used to be Samsung's huge problem,

00:58:45   those screens.

00:58:46   - And it really made, you know,

00:58:49   like you could design around it in the user interface

00:58:53   by picking colors that look good on OLED,

00:58:55   but like for photography, it was just dreadful

00:58:58   because it looked like you applied

00:58:59   like a weird Instagram filter in your photo.

00:59:02   It was just like, oh, that's just your picture.

00:59:04   - Right, yeah.

00:59:06   - And that's over.

00:59:07   That is, it's like I haven't seen

00:59:10   an even medium to high level Android phone

00:59:12   that has weird color issues.

00:59:13   I'm sure that you can, you know, that the experts,

00:59:16   you know, you can look at them and see fine differences,

00:59:18   but like just like to the, just the basic eyeball test

00:59:22   of looking at it, they all look good.

00:59:24   - Yeah, I mean, and then the Samsung phone is just,

00:59:27   it's beautiful now, the screen is beautiful.

00:59:31   - Yeah, and I think that the cameras are all decent.

00:59:33   I think, I still think that the iPhone has a pretty,

00:59:36   you know, a noticeable advantage.

00:59:38   Maybe not over the highest end, get the new Galaxy,

00:59:42   which is really-- - Yeah, definitely not.

00:59:42   - Seems to have a good camera,

00:59:43   but that's a brand new phone,

00:59:45   but over the mid-market Android phones.

00:59:48   But even there, the cameras are really good

00:59:52   compared to even standalone point-and-shoots

00:59:55   from a few years ago.

00:59:56   - Oh yeah, yeah.

00:59:57   I mean, the camera on that blue,

00:59:59   that $50 blue was horrendous.

01:00:02   I mean, horrendous.

01:00:04   When you go up even to a $200 Android phone,

01:00:07   Huawei makes a really good $200 phone

01:00:09   with I think it's like a 13 megapixel camera,

01:00:12   who knows what kind of sensor,

01:00:13   but that's like certainly passable for many people.

01:00:18   But yeah, the $400 phones certainly don't take

01:00:23   as good a shots as the S7 or the iPhone,

01:00:27   but yeah, they're good.

01:00:28   - Let me take one break before we wrap up the show

01:00:33   and thank our third and final sponsor of the show

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01:02:42   All right, last thing I wanted to talk to you about,

01:02:43   and then you can bring up anything else you want

01:02:45   with our remaining time,

01:02:46   is I wanna talk to you about this whole

01:02:48   Windows 10 upgrade thing.

01:02:49   Because this is like, I'm vaguely aware of it,

01:02:52   but my weird, like, I don't use any Windows stuff

01:02:56   means that I'm not really aware of it.

01:02:58   Can you explain this to me?

01:02:59   - Sure.

01:03:00   Okay, you ready for the deep explanation?

01:03:05   - Yes.

01:03:06   - Okay, so it's actually pretty complicated,

01:03:08   and I said in that piece that it's,

01:03:11   I don't understand why Microsoft didn't just do

01:03:13   these updates in one fell swoop.

01:03:15   So last year, a year ago today, yep, right?

01:03:21   A year ago today, Microsoft released Windows 10

01:03:24   is a free update for Windows 8 and Windows 7 users.

01:03:28   Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1 users.

01:03:31   So you've been able--

01:03:32   - And I'll just point out for those who don't remember,

01:03:34   they skipped Windows 9.

01:03:35   - They did skip Windows 9, that's right.

01:03:37   - Right.

01:03:38   - And so for the last year,

01:03:40   you've been able to upgrade for free.

01:03:43   But today, tonight, at 11 p.m. Hawaii time,

01:03:48   which is the most random time zone ever,

01:03:53   you will no longer be able to upgrade for free.

01:03:57   So that is what today is.

01:04:01   Is everyone with me?

01:04:04   - All right.

01:04:05   - Then on August 2nd, which is next--

01:04:10   - Monday?

01:04:10   - Monday?

01:04:11   - Or am I wrong? - Next Tuesday.

01:04:12   - Tuesday?

01:04:13   - The anniversary update goes out.

01:04:17   So people who have had Windows 10 for the last year,

01:04:23   or the last couple months,

01:04:24   we'll get this push about download Windows 10

01:04:29   anniversary update.

01:04:30   And that update adds very few new features,

01:04:35   some good stability fixes in Microsoft Edge browser,

01:04:39   which is kind of a big deal

01:04:40   'cause it's like what most people use on their computers.

01:04:44   It has extensions now.

01:04:46   There's a lot of new stylus tricks that they have,

01:04:49   which are actually pretty cool.

01:04:52   Cortana does some more things.

01:04:54   It's small, it's sort of like the equivalent

01:05:00   of a El Capitan release for Grapple, right, a year in.

01:05:05   But yeah, it's kind of confusing, right?

01:05:09   One day was the end of the free updates for all users

01:05:14   and then next week is this,

01:05:15   and then if you were one of the people

01:05:17   who just updated right now, like today to Windows 10,

01:05:21   you won't actually get that anniversary update

01:05:23   for a month or so.

01:05:24   So yeah, it's pretty staggered.

01:05:27   - Why would they do this?

01:05:29   - I think, well, the answer I got was basically

01:05:31   it was two separate teams,

01:05:33   it was timing of two separate teams.

01:05:35   Yeah, yeah.

01:05:39   - Why, is there like an accounting angle

01:05:42   like where for accounting purposes,

01:05:44   they can't just continue to give Windows 10

01:05:46   to other people for free?

01:05:49   - No, I mean, I think that was just like a,

01:05:51   I think that was an offer and that was a marketing push.

01:05:54   You know, it was a marketing push, I think.

01:05:56   - They're still in the business of selling windows.

01:05:59   - I frankly have no idea, right.

01:06:00   They're still in the business of selling windows,

01:06:02   but they are, you know, there's definitely hints

01:06:04   that windows as a service or a subscription

01:06:08   could be something that happens.

01:06:11   I certainly think they're setting up for that.

01:06:14   But I don't know.

01:06:19   and I don't know, yeah, I just don't know

01:06:23   what they're really sort of thinking in terms of.

01:06:25   - And it does seem to me, as somebody who casually looks

01:06:30   at all these big companies, quarterly reports

01:06:33   when they come out, just to keep an eye on

01:06:35   who's doing well and whatever, it really does seem to me

01:06:37   that under Saadia Nadella, Microsoft is very successfully

01:06:41   weaning itself, or maybe has already weaned itself away

01:06:44   from being the company that sells Windows in Office,

01:06:46   that they have serious, significant, same scale,

01:06:51   the company is as big as it was and has revenue

01:06:54   that on these services that make up for it,

01:06:57   that they could definitely, it doesn't seem foolish.

01:07:02   10 years ago it would have been ridiculous

01:07:03   to say that they should just make windows free.

01:07:06   But it seems now, it seems like well,

01:07:08   as a front end to these services that they're selling,

01:07:11   and to do it on a subscription model,

01:07:12   it doesn't seem silly at all.

01:07:14   - Right, well, they want to obviously be a services company

01:07:19   and I think as they move into more of these sort of AI

01:07:25   or the Cortana's of the world

01:07:28   and the other types of services they're trying to build

01:07:30   into the operating system,

01:07:32   the more we come to lean on those types of things

01:07:36   and the more we sort of want to pay,

01:07:38   or we may use Microsoft services across our devices,

01:07:43   especially on the iPhone, Microsoft's done a really good

01:07:47   job with some of those iPhone apps.

01:07:48   Maybe there's a chance they think you buy a,

01:07:53   you sort of lumped in with your Office 365 subscription

01:07:57   and you get all of this other stuff.

01:07:59   I don't know, I don't know.

01:08:01   - What about this whole thing where too many people

01:08:04   are obviously getting like, surprise,

01:08:07   your computer's been updated to Windows 10?

01:08:09   - Yeah, it's a huge problem.

01:08:12   - So my understanding is that they have configured

01:08:14   default settings or made it so that if you just

01:08:18   click through setup, maybe like two years ago

01:08:20   or whenever when you got your Windows 8 computer,

01:08:23   that it's all set up so that at some point overnight,

01:08:26   it's going to update itself to Windows 10,

01:08:28   which is a major update.

01:08:30   - Yeah.

01:08:30   - And people are very upset about this.

01:08:32   - People are really upset about ones.

01:08:35   And one, I think what happened was, and I've gotten,

01:08:39   In general, I've never gotten so many angry reader emails

01:08:43   as I have gotten this week.

01:08:44   It's not about what I'm about to talk about,

01:08:46   but it is about huge customer service problems

01:08:50   that Microsoft seems to have on this.

01:08:52   And you really wanna talk about Microsoft needing

01:08:55   to control the hardware and software experience is,

01:08:59   I mean, I see it in every single one of these emails,

01:09:02   which I wish I could respond to.

01:09:03   So I'm sure none of these listeners are actually

01:09:06   the people that emailed me.

01:09:07   They're quite old, I can tell from the fonts

01:09:10   and the signatures that I get in these emails.

01:09:13   But they're just infuriated that they updated

01:09:18   and their printer doesn't work.

01:09:19   They updated and the graphics driver doesn't work.

01:09:23   And I have not had these problems.

01:09:27   I upgraded three old laptops in the last two weeks

01:09:30   when I was writing that piece.

01:09:31   I actually think Windows 10 is really stable

01:09:34   and I really like using it.

01:09:35   There's a lot of similarities to the Mac

01:09:38   when it comes to handling your apps and stuff like that.

01:09:42   So yeah, I think it's a huge customer service problem.

01:09:44   But the issue on the upgrade,

01:09:46   what happened was there was a pop-up,

01:09:47   like I turned on these old computers

01:09:49   and I had tons of Windows 10 upgrade pop-ups.

01:09:52   And my whole video is basically

01:09:54   the pop-up interrupting my sentence

01:09:55   because I could, like I would launch these

01:09:58   and it was like every five minutes, you know, it would say,

01:10:01   oh, did you know Windows 10, your upgrade's expiring?

01:10:04   and it's like, I freaking told you to go away.

01:10:07   But what happened was, was one of those pop-ups,

01:10:09   I guess, you don't read it very closely.

01:10:12   And so one of them said,

01:10:14   your computer will upgrade to Windows 10 tonight

01:10:17   at the scheduled time,

01:10:18   and if you have a problem with that,

01:10:21   kick cancel or whatever.

01:10:22   And people didn't hit those, they hit the red X.

01:10:24   And it ended up just,

01:10:27   it didn't end up overriding the pop-up

01:10:30   or whatever the command was to start upgrading.

01:10:33   and that's what happened.

01:10:35   - Right, and it's sort of-- - So lots of people

01:10:36   just were like, my computer upgraded overnight

01:10:38   and I told them no.

01:10:40   - Right, and it's one of those things

01:10:41   that's always bugged me about Windows

01:10:43   as a UI nerd and critic is the way

01:10:46   that they often have those windows

01:10:47   where there's both like, okay, cancel, and a red X.

01:10:52   And it's like, I think it is, if you're,

01:10:54   A, that's a bad design, it's a really bad design,

01:10:56   but if you're gonna do that, it is very natural to think

01:11:00   as just a normal person who doesn't think about the UI,

01:11:04   just reacts to it, that the red X means do nothing,

01:11:08   that it's like cancel.

01:11:09   That that should not, hitting the red X to close the window

01:11:13   should not mean, okay, go ahead and do this super

01:11:16   significant, almost risky thing.

01:11:19   - Right, and actually, the pop-up that I put in the article

01:11:22   I wrote this week, it says, sorry to interrupt,

01:11:24   but this is important, Windows 10 free upgrade offer

01:11:27   will end July 29th, right?

01:11:29   It's this big text, right?

01:11:30   And then underneath it says, upgrade now within a box

01:11:33   or remind me later in a box.

01:11:37   And those are the main options, right?

01:11:40   But then in the bottom left hand corner,

01:11:42   and I'll send you this link, it says,

01:11:44   do not notify me again in a similar purple

01:11:48   to the purple pop-up.

01:11:50   So it's almost like so hard to see that it's like,

01:11:54   you wouldn't notice it, right?

01:11:56   Like if you get this pop-up, you just want it to go away,

01:11:58   You either hit the X or you hit remind me later, right?

01:12:01   Because you don't have any other option.

01:12:03   - Is this in your survival guide to perpetual windows?

01:12:06   - Yeah, yeah.

01:12:07   - I've already got that link.

01:12:08   I've got the link in the show. - You see that purple,

01:12:08   you know, and it's crazy.

01:12:11   It's just like, that's not fair to people.

01:12:13   But, and then, you know, what I couldn't get,

01:12:15   and I think this is something that happens,

01:12:17   it's happening, and I think this is actually

01:12:19   a separate piece, it's happening to every,

01:12:21   all of our operating systems.

01:12:23   I talk about it in this piece, but, you know,

01:12:25   Android, iOS, it doesn't matter, Mac, Windows,

01:12:28   these companies want to get you

01:12:30   on their newest operating system.

01:12:32   They want to do it for a couple of reasons.

01:12:34   In Microsoft's case, it's actually a little bit unclear.

01:12:38   Obviously, they would love everyone to be on it.

01:12:40   I think there is some data mining going on

01:12:43   that I think really does benefit Microsoft.

01:12:47   In the cases of Apple, it always seems like it's security

01:12:50   and it seems like a bragging right that they get to say,

01:12:52   everyone is on this latest operating system,

01:12:55   but certainly security and features play pretty high

01:12:58   on the top of the list of why they want people

01:13:00   on the new software.

01:13:02   Unless there's something else I'm missing.

01:13:05   I mean, what is the other main reason

01:13:07   these companies want us on their latest software?

01:13:09   - No, I think you hit them.

01:13:11   I think security is one, I think new features

01:13:14   that they want people to have access to are another.

01:13:16   I know with iOS, macOS to a lesser degree, I think,

01:13:21   But with iOS, I know that there are,

01:13:25   and I've written about it many times,

01:13:26   there's often complaints from people

01:13:28   with like three-year-old iPhones

01:13:30   who find that their experience degrades

01:13:32   after they go ahead and do what is obviously

01:13:36   what Apple wants you to do.

01:13:38   And I think that they've changed it.

01:13:41   I don't think that it automatically updates,

01:13:43   but they've made it even more aggressive,

01:13:44   I think, starting last year in terms of pushing it.

01:13:47   - Yeah, it won't automatically, but it will say,

01:13:49   I think there's the same options,

01:13:50   upgrade now remind me later and you know, there's

01:13:54   no I think what they've changed I know it. I know what they've done is that they've changed

01:13:58   it where it's like upgrade now. And like the next schedule it. Yeah, the next button which

01:14:03   makes you think like it's maybe like now don't do it really means I'm going to do it when

01:14:07   you plug me in. Right. I'm going to schedule it. Yeah. Yeah, that's what it is. And it's

01:14:13   a little you know, it's nowhere near as sneaky as I think what Microsoft is doing. But you

01:14:17   could argue that it's not bad UI design, it's sort of sneaky UI design.

01:14:23   Mm-hmm, right.

01:14:25   It's definitely the case that the security issues are real though, like...

01:14:28   Oh yeah, for sure.

01:14:29   I was talking on this show last week with Glenn Fleishun about these bugs

01:14:33   that were fixed in this, these image format things where, you know, all these

01:14:39   bugs were discovered where the way that you could send somebody an iMessage with

01:14:43   with a maliciously designed image,

01:14:47   and just by looking at the iMessage,

01:14:48   you could be exploited.

01:14:50   And they fixed it, but they've only fixed it

01:14:52   in the very latest versions of iOS and Mac OS X,

01:14:55   and at least to my knowledge, they haven't done like,

01:14:58   so if you're on Yosemite still,

01:15:02   you don't have a fix for this yet.

01:15:04   So the only way to get these fixes

01:15:06   is to stay totally up to date.

01:15:08   - Right, right.

01:15:11   Which, yeah, I mean, that's certainly the right incentive

01:15:15   to also tell users because that's scary.

01:15:19   You don't want to be put at blame for that.

01:15:22   Yeah.

01:15:25   - Anything else that you wanted to talk about

01:15:27   this week, Joanna?

01:15:27   - So many things to talk about, I don't know.

01:15:31   - If there's only one more thing I'd pick your brain about

01:15:35   is looking at everybody's results,

01:15:39   Some strong quarters from lots of people Facebook and and Google both did really well online advertising Twitter not so good

01:15:46   And I I don't know. I'm not a business expert. I could be totally wrong

01:15:50   I have a gut feeling like Twitter is not long for this world as an independent company

01:15:55   I think somebody is gonna acquire them and I my question is who?

01:15:59   Like a question if Verizon bought Yahoo, why not Verizon I

01:16:04   Think Verizon's got all this money and they want content, right?

01:16:08   I'm not saying it'd be a good idea.

01:16:10   I'm not saying that Verizon would be good or bad

01:16:12   as a parent, but I could see them being interested in it.

01:16:15   - I could see that too also just for the sort of

01:16:19   TV integration too.

01:16:20   - Yeah. - Comcast and--

01:16:21   - Comcast would be another one that I would think might,

01:16:24   'cause they have more money than they know what to do with

01:16:26   and are sort of looking to own content.

01:16:30   - Right.

01:16:30   Right. - Just a gut feeling.

01:16:33   I wanna be able to say I was right when Twitter

01:16:36   ends up being acquired sometime in the near future.

01:16:39   - No, I think that's a, yeah.

01:16:44   I don't know where makes sense, I don't know.

01:16:47   - I don't know that makes sense is the right way

01:16:48   to think about it because I don't think it makes any sense

01:16:50   for Verizon to buy Yahoo's web project, but they did it.

01:16:54   I think that's maybe, that's what I've,

01:16:56   it's the Yahoo thing that put it in my head too,

01:16:59   where Verizon buying Yahoo doesn't make much sense to me,

01:17:03   but then I realized like, so stop thinking

01:17:04   of who would make sense to buy Twitter

01:17:06   and just think who would do it.

01:17:08   And that's what made me think like Comcast or Verizon

01:17:12   or somebody like that.

01:17:14   - Right.

01:17:15   - Well, and-- - Yeah, I mean,

01:17:17   I think that when you think of Twitter as like,

01:17:20   I said a couple of months ago in a piece I wrote,

01:17:23   Twitter really isn't a social network, it's a media site.

01:17:27   - Yep, and they don't know it themselves.

01:17:30   - They don't know it, no.

01:17:31   But they're starting to get into it a little bit more,

01:17:34   I think also the focus on Periscope.

01:17:36   There's been a lot of updates to Periscope,

01:17:38   which is, it's a sad thing.

01:17:40   Now everyone's not using Facebook Live

01:17:42   and it's gotten tons of buzz this summer

01:17:44   and this was an opportunity.

01:17:47   Twitter really could have been a head out on that

01:17:49   and they weren't.

01:17:50   - Yeah, and it seemed like just in the last two weeks,

01:17:52   as a political junkie watching the two conventions,

01:17:55   it seemed like whenever they were talking about people

01:17:57   streaming stuff from their phones,

01:17:58   it was just Facebook Live.

01:18:01   It was almost like, in Chelsea Clinton's speech last night

01:18:05   when she was talking about her grandkids

01:18:06   talking to Hillary Clinton, she just said FaceTime.

01:18:09   FaceTime is the thing when you talk.

01:18:12   That's just what people say.

01:18:13   And for this broadcasting, I'm here

01:18:16   and I'm gonna broadcast to people on social network,

01:18:18   it's Facebook Live. - Definitely.

01:18:19   - And I like Periscope, and I hope Periscope

01:18:22   continues to thrive, but it seems like Facebook Live

01:18:24   just swooped in and ate their lunch.

01:18:26   - Right, right.

01:18:27   I mean, 'cause people are there, and also Periscope,

01:18:29   really not 'til a couple of months ago,

01:18:31   was really sort of integrated in the Twitter experience.

01:18:35   It sort of was like, we own this thing

01:18:37   and you can get your Twitter followers integrated here,

01:18:39   but watching one of those through the Twitter apps

01:18:42   and stuff was not a thing,

01:18:45   and now they've worked on that integration more.

01:18:47   Yeah.

01:18:50   - That was my last thing.

01:18:53   Joanna Stern, thank you so much for your time.

01:18:54   I always love having you on the show.

01:18:55   - I wanna ask you one question.

01:18:56   I've been thinking about the Apple Watch a lot lately

01:18:58   'cause I finally,

01:19:00   I took mine off for a couple of months.

01:19:02   I just did not find it useful for things that,

01:19:07   mostly I used Apple Watch to tell the time

01:19:11   and when I was working out.

01:19:12   And it's sort of like, I just got tired

01:19:14   of working out with it on.

01:19:16   It lost its relevance to me.

01:19:18   What do you think, you think there's gonna be a new one

01:19:22   in the fall?

01:19:23   - You know what, that's an excellent,

01:19:26   it's like everybody's saying iPhone, iPhone, iPhone.

01:19:28   It's gonna look like the old iPhone,

01:19:29   it's gonna have a new camera, it's gonna be thinner,

01:19:31   it's gonna be lighter, it's gonna be way faster,

01:19:34   blah, blah, blah.

01:19:34   - No headphone? - iPhone, iPhone, iPhone.

01:19:36   Yeah, no headphone, all this, pages and pages.

01:19:39   And nobody's talking about Apple Watch.

01:19:41   I think that they're definitely gonna do

01:19:42   a new Apple Watch in September.

01:19:44   I have no-- - I really only think that--

01:19:45   - No inside information about this at all.

01:19:47   - Right, and we've heard no leaks, which is interesting.

01:19:49   But I only think that 'cause of watchOS 3.

01:19:51   And so as I'm wearing this watch again,

01:19:54   I kinda keep thinking in the back of my head,

01:19:56   I don't have OS 3 on here, but I keep thinking,

01:19:58   this thing's gonna be so much better

01:20:00   when I have watchOS 3 on here.

01:20:02   And then I sort of keep thinking,

01:20:03   well, what would the hardware improvements be

01:20:05   that would make that even better?

01:20:07   And I happen to think they all,

01:20:09   a lot of them are fitness related,

01:20:11   'cause that was the real focus at WWDC.

01:20:13   - Yeah, I think fitness related,

01:20:15   I think that they've realized,

01:20:17   once it's out in the real world,

01:20:18   that the fitness stuff is off the charts popular.

01:20:21   So, and it seems like there could be design considerations

01:20:24   to emphasize that more.

01:20:25   And I think now that they've rethought

01:20:26   the way that the two buttons work, the crown and the button.

01:20:29   - That's right, that's right.

01:20:31   - They've rethought the way they work in the OS,

01:20:33   I think for the better, even on the old watch,

01:20:35   the existing watch that we know,

01:20:37   but if they rethought them like that in the software,

01:20:39   why not, I don't know what they would do.

01:20:41   I don't know, but it's something to make them

01:20:43   even more apt to the new purpose in the OS.

01:20:46   - Totally, totally.

01:20:48   - And I think the thing could be thinner.

01:20:50   - Yeah, for sure, yeah.

01:20:52   And the battery life possibly a little bit better,

01:20:54   but you know, I don't know.

01:20:55   - I find it crazy that there's no speculation about it.

01:20:57   I don't know if it's something to do with the fact

01:20:59   that like somehow in the supply chain,

01:21:01   they've got a new, you know,

01:21:02   they're doing it in a way that actually can hold the secret

01:21:05   in a way that the iPhone supply chain obviously can't.

01:21:08   And because of that,

01:21:10   if it doesn't leak through the supply chain,

01:21:11   it just doesn't percolate out to our speculation.

01:21:14   But it seems crazy to me

01:21:15   that there's not more speculation right now

01:21:17   at the beginning of August, end of July,

01:21:21   about a device that I think we're gonna hear about

01:21:23   in like six weeks.

01:21:24   - Right, maybe it doesn't ship then.

01:21:26   - No, just like they did.

01:21:28   But this year they would have to ship before Christmas.

01:21:31   - Right, which is October.

01:21:33   Yeah, November.

01:21:34   - Yeah, they could ship as late as early November, I think.

01:21:37   But that's, and I would expect that.

01:21:40   I would expect that the iPhone ships in September,

01:21:42   but that if they do announce a new watch,

01:21:44   it'll be like an October thing.

01:21:46   - Yeah, I agree.

01:21:47   - Yeah, I feel like that's one of the big,

01:21:51   hopefully we'll be surprised

01:21:52   when we go out there in September to hear about this stuff.

01:21:55   But I'm with you, I think that they're gonna do it.

01:21:57   And the fact that there's no rumors about it,

01:21:59   I think it's just sort of, I don't know what it is.

01:22:02   I guess, I mean, maybe I'm wrong.

01:22:04   Maybe there is, you know, they're just heading

01:22:06   to Christmas selling the same watch

01:22:07   they've been selling for two years.

01:22:08   But it seems crazy to me that--

01:22:10   - And it costs like $100.

01:22:12   - Right, yeah.

01:22:12   - I mean, it costs 200 bucks last year, right?

01:22:14   Like the one offered at Target,

01:22:17   I mean, and that's the one I see.

01:22:20   I see that one a lot.

01:22:21   I see women wearing the rose gold one

01:22:23   that was offered on cheaper at Target and Walmart

01:22:27   than most of them.

01:22:29   I see a lot of women wearing them.

01:22:32   - I see more and more.

01:22:33   I see an awful lot of them.

01:22:35   - Yeah, I mean that's, you know,

01:22:37   New York workout scene is Apple watches.

01:22:40   And there's Fitbits, there's Fitbits.

01:22:41   But yeah, that's like one of the things

01:22:44   I'm also really excited about,

01:22:45   which is the competition stuff that's,

01:22:47   you know, you can compare to others.

01:22:49   I'm excited about that in watchOS 3.

01:22:51   - Yeah, so I definitely think that that is,

01:22:53   I think it's just overwhelmed by the speculation

01:22:56   about the new iPhone, whatever they're gonna call it.

01:22:58   - Right. - And I definitely think

01:22:59   it's coming and I think it'll be really, really interesting

01:23:02   'cause I feel like the iPhone is at a point

01:23:05   where it's almost 10 years old and it's not surprising to me

01:23:08   that the new iPhone is supposedly so similar to the 6S

01:23:13   because they've had so many times to iterate it

01:23:15   that they've sort of achieved the platonic ideal

01:23:19   of the form factor, at least in their mind.

01:23:21   Whereas the watch, they've only done one.

01:23:23   And it's like, think back to the early years of the iPhone

01:23:26   and how quickly they went from the original

01:23:30   to those plastic 3Gs to the 4S, or the 4 and 4S.

01:23:34   They made significant improvements and changes

01:23:36   to the form factor in just a few years.

01:23:38   And I feel like they could do the same with the watch.

01:23:40   - Right, right.

01:23:41   - And last but not least, if we're gonna talk about that,

01:23:44   I do believe, 'cause I know people will ask,

01:23:45   I believe that if they do have a new watch

01:23:47   that it will remain strap compatible

01:23:49   with the existing watch straps.

01:23:52   - Yeah, I think that makes sense.

01:23:53   That's why I put this new watch on.

01:23:55   I actually found this band.

01:23:57   It's like the, it was the new felt band,

01:24:00   what is it, what do they call these?

01:24:03   - I forget what that's called.

01:24:04   - And I really like it.

01:24:05   You know, it kind of like, and I, you know,

01:24:09   the whole band thing, it's really, it's so smart.

01:24:11   I mean, it really-- - Wait, do you mean

01:24:12   the nylon one?

01:24:13   - Yeah, it's not felt, it's like a--

01:24:16   - Braided nylon. - Fabric, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:24:18   I mean, it feels like a new watch to me.

01:24:21   - Yeah, that's my favorite too,

01:24:22   especially for wearing it to exercise.

01:24:25   - You don't like to wear it when you exercise, or you do?

01:24:27   - No, I do, and I like, but I have the one

01:24:30   with the metal link band, which is more

01:24:35   like a serious dress band, and it just feels

01:24:38   really weird to me to go out running

01:24:39   with that watch. - Yeah, you can't work

01:24:40   that with that, yeah, right.

01:24:41   - You can't, it just feels too heavy,

01:24:42   it just feels weird when you sweat on it. Whereas this nylon fabric feels like it's

01:24:47   almost like an athletic material.

01:24:48   Yeah. Yeah. My problem with it is that unlike the sport band, I can't get it that tight

01:24:53   around my wrist, so the heart rate monitor doesn't work as well if it's not snug, like

01:24:57   really snug. But yeah, it looks really nice.

01:25:01   That's it for me. Joanna Stern of the Wall Street Journal, I thank you for your time.

01:25:07   I want to thank our three sponsors. Fraktor, where you go get your pictures taken, go to

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01:25:26   Thank you, Joanna.