The Talk Show

159: ‘Phil Z’ With Marco Arment


00:00:00   Here's what I got for us to talk about.

00:00:01   WWDC.

00:00:03   (laughs)

00:00:04   The live talk show at WWDC.

00:00:07   Mac OS, or what's it called?

00:00:09   Mac OS.

00:00:10   Mac OS 10.12.

00:00:11   - I've lost track.

00:00:12   - iOS 10.

00:00:13   Watch OS 3.

00:00:15   Taking the headphone jack off the iPhone.

00:00:17   Covering your laptop cameras with tape.

00:00:21   Podcast ads, the future of podcasting and mid-roll.

00:00:24   Buying Stitcher.

00:00:25   And then at the end we can talk about cars

00:00:28   talk about the shitty Shifter design that led to the guy from Star Trek stuff. So let's

00:00:37   get started. WWDC. We don't have to talk about the actual announcements.

00:00:40   Nah, everyone's heard about those already. I want to talk about your show.

00:00:45   Alright.

00:00:46   Because, you know, I have some to say about it and you probably won't be saying all

00:00:51   this so I will say it because you won't. So, number one is, you know, first of all,

00:00:57   I greatly enjoyed it.

00:00:58   You began the show by posing the question of like,

00:01:03   you know, you had Phil on last year, how do you top that?

00:01:05   You know, there's only so far you can go up the chain

00:01:08   to top having Phil on the show.

00:01:10   And you ended up having Phil and Craig on the show this year

00:01:16   and I put forth now this theory that that is the top,

00:01:19   that is the best you can do for that show in that week.

00:01:23   - I agree with that.

00:01:24   I think that's actually probably true.

00:01:26   because, and this is, I know that it,

00:01:29   I think I successfully kept it secret, number one.

00:01:31   I don't know what the people were whispering

00:01:33   out in the audience.

00:01:34   - I was guessing Tim, but I had no idea.

00:01:36   - Yeah, Tim, that was by far the most common guess,

00:01:39   that like, and people were,

00:01:41   and people were bugging me like that they,

00:01:42   not bugging me, I shouldn't say that.

00:01:43   Everybody who come up and said hi to me at WWDC,

00:01:45   I always enjoy it, and sometimes I see people on Twitter

00:01:48   who say, "Hey, I saw you somewhere,

00:01:49   "and I thought, ah, I won't bother you."

00:01:51   No, just come say hi, I like to say hi to people,

00:01:53   it's great, it's one of my favorite parts of WWDC.

00:01:55   And it was really weird for me in the early years because it does not come naturally to

00:02:00   me.

00:02:01   But I've learned over the years how to make those things go pretty well.

00:02:08   Pretty much what I did was the one year at South by Southwest I was hanging out.

00:02:10   It was the year Merlin and I spoke together at South by.

00:02:13   And I just noticed that when people would come up to us, whether they knew Merlin, Merlin

00:02:19   is amazing.

00:02:20   He's absolutely amazing when someone comes up and says, "Hey, are you Merlin, man?"

00:02:24   obviously never met them. They're a fan. He's so good at it. And I just suddenly

00:02:27   went into like, "I'm just gonna copy his moves and just do what he does." And it's

00:02:35   gotten a lot better. So anyway, people would come up to you. They'd say blah blah blah.

00:02:37   But then they'd say, "Who's gonna be on your show?" And I would just say, I started

00:02:40   saying to them, "You don't really want me to tell you, right? I mean, you want to be

00:02:43   surprised." Yeah, and like you and you know, I don't know what the listeners think,

00:02:47   but like, you know, so you and I are friends. I didn't know either last year

00:02:50   or this year. Like, you don't even tell your friends. Like, you don't, as far as I

00:02:53   know the only people you tell are like Amy and Paul who are working the event

00:02:56   with you like you don't tell anybody I didn't tell Paul Amy did and Caleb

00:03:04   Sexton knew as of like three or four in the afternoon of the day and I did tell

00:03:10   Caleb that you know to prepare three lav mics so he knew there would be two to

00:03:15   two guests but no I did not tell anybody because that's how you keep a secret how

00:03:19   How do you keep a secret? It's easy. Don't tell anybody. I swear to God, it is the...

00:03:25   It sounds stupid, but most people don't do that.

00:03:31   Amy tells me a great story. I'm going to butcher this in some way. But when she was in law

00:03:36   school, she had a criminal defense course that was taught by a former FBI agent. And

00:03:45   He told them, he said, "You want to know how to get away with a murder?

00:03:48   It's actually very easy.

00:03:50   Don't leave any evidence.

00:03:53   Don't leave any evidence behind.

00:03:55   Don't tell anyone what you did, and don't ever do it again, and you'll get away with

00:04:01   it."

00:04:02   AARON LINDQUIST >> Useful information for law students.

00:04:04   JEFF ZELENY >> Most murderers do not get away with it because most murderers either leave

00:04:08   something behind or, most commonly, they tell somebody.

00:04:12   It's very, very easy.

00:04:14   I didn't murder anybody, but I did not tell anybody who was going to be on the show.

00:04:17   And I agree with your assessment that the duo of Phil and Craig is, I think, unbeatable.

00:04:23   Tim Cook would be a bigger get.

00:04:26   Johnny Ive would be a big get.

00:04:28   But I don't think that the combination of my interviewing skills combined with their

00:04:34   personalities I don't think would be as enjoyable.

00:04:37   Well, especially in this setting, too.

00:04:40   You are there and you want to talk about what was just said in the keynote.

00:04:43   seen interviews of Tim, Tim doesn't really stray from the talking points.

00:04:46   He's very well prepared, very well controlled, and he says what he wants to

00:04:50   say and nothing more. And what you really want at the BBC is, and in the

00:04:55   talk show, is like the live talk show is still your show. It's still the talk show

00:05:00   and you know the the mood of it takes on what you set there. So it really it's

00:05:06   kind of like you know like you like you say that this is the director's

00:05:09   commentary for Daring Fireball. You know when you have these Apple execs on

00:05:12   on your show, which I love that now two years in,

00:05:16   it just has become like, oh, this is just what you do now.

00:05:18   Last year it was like, holy crap,

00:05:19   this year it's like, oh yeah, again, okay.

00:05:21   But when you have them on the show,

00:05:24   it kind of becomes the director's commentary for WWDC.

00:05:29   'Cause it is like, mood-wise, it's like the closest

00:05:32   that any of us will ever get to sitting down

00:05:35   and having a beer with Apple executives.

00:05:37   And I think Phil and Craig not only have

00:05:41   very good personalities that mesh well with that.

00:05:43   But also like topic wise at WWDC,

00:05:47   if there's any two Apple execs you can pick

00:05:49   to ask questions to that are gonna be interesting

00:05:52   and relevant to developers after having heard

00:05:54   that keynote that day, it's gonna be those two.

00:05:56   Because you have Phil who now runs the entire app store,

00:05:59   policy wise at least, he runs the whole app store

00:06:01   and then he's also kind of like,

00:06:04   I don't know what his role is unofficially

00:06:07   but it seems like he is in many ways

00:06:10   like heavily involved or possibly the head of a lot of product decisions. Yeah,

00:06:15   I've always said, and I mean, just maybe I should have asked. I've always had this

00:06:19   on my list. What would you say you do here? Well, I have had that, and I've run

00:06:24   out of time. I've both ears, you know, it's better that way, but I have more stuff

00:06:28   to talk to them about than I have time to ask them. And I tend to favor,

00:06:34   "Hey, let's fill this up with questions from the keynote," because I think it's

00:06:39   that's more relevant to now than forever.

00:06:42   But I have ideas, I go into it with a couple ideas

00:06:45   for things to talk about just in case the keynote

00:06:47   doesn't really have a lot of stuff.

00:06:49   But I've always said, and from my perspective on the outside,

00:06:52   the best way to understand Schiller's role at Apple

00:06:55   would be to take the word marketing out of his name

00:06:57   and edit title and edit senior vice president of product.

00:07:01   'Cause the marketing is in and of itself,

00:07:03   it's part of the product, it's not a separate thing,

00:07:06   it's not like the products are developed

00:07:07   and then Schiller's group figures out how to advertise them or what pictures to take

00:07:11   to put on the box. It's all of a piece. That's the type of marketing that gives, especially

00:07:17   engineers who are analytical, and they roll their eyes when they think about marketing.

00:07:22   Bad marketing is when you start with a bad product and somebody is told, "Here's a kind

00:07:26   of crappy product or a thing with a bunch of problems. Figure out a way to sell it."

00:07:29   Well, the marketer still has to do their job, but whereas if you have a good product, you

00:07:35   just let the product speak for yourself and figure out how do we let the product speak

00:07:38   for itself. And I think that's ideally what, you know, at their best, that's how Apple's

00:07:43   marketing works.

00:07:44   And it seems too like...

00:07:45   He is intimately familiar with all of their products.

00:07:48   Oh, clearly. And also, and you know, having Craig there too, like, it's amazing because,

00:07:53   you know, you think of like, you know, what is an executive? And you think of like, what

00:07:57   kind of person is it? What do they know? What kind of involvement do they have? And to have

00:08:00   the kind of incredibly deep knowledge that these two executives have about

00:08:05   what they apparently oversee with pillar you know and what and what Craig does

00:08:09   officially oversee you know like Craig was throwing out deep technical

00:08:13   implementation details and and I know from talking to people in the company

00:08:17   that that's genuine like Craig is really a genuine like hardcore engineer and

00:08:22   he's really he really knows his stuff and he gets deeply involved in it and and

00:08:27   is, but at the same time is a really good leader. I mean, I don't think I've met

00:08:31   anybody who has worked under Craig or anywhere near Craig and has a single bad thing to say

00:08:36   about the experience of working with him. I mean, he seems incredibly good at his job

00:08:42   and very well suited to that leadership role, but also, like Phil, having this incredibly

00:08:47   deep knowledge of the product and the decisions. And to have that there, this is why I think

00:08:53   this is better than having Tim for your show.

00:08:55   Because not only, not only like I think you have,

00:08:57   you'd have a better personality mesh with these guys,

00:09:01   but also I think, you know,

00:09:03   Tim doesn't take that kind of deep knowledge

00:09:07   of like the little details of how these things

00:09:09   are engineered or product decisions like,

00:09:11   and 'cause I think Tim kind of knows

00:09:13   that he's not like ahead of product the way Steve was,

00:09:16   and so he has delegated that to some of the other SVPs,

00:09:20   and you know, different combinations.

00:09:22   And honestly, I think it's a little bit vague as to what the combination is right now, and that might be a bit of a problem.

00:09:25   But overall, you know, it's, you know, Tim is not really a product person, and Phil very clearly is.

00:09:33   And honestly, I mean, from just my point of view, I am very happy you had those two people on.

00:09:39   And I would say Phil and Craig are my favorite Apple executives.

00:09:43   And I think the ones that most closely align with my priorities, it seems.

00:09:50   Yeah, I think that's fair to say. So I don't know why I'm screwed for next year.

00:09:54   Yeah, well just have them on again or have moles. That's it. Those are your

00:09:57   choices.

00:09:57   I think Eddie, Eddie Q, uh, when he was on this show with Craig was good and I

00:10:01   think he would be good, but his personality wise, uh,

00:10:06   but his domain isn't a good fit,

00:10:09   especially for the WWDC show.

00:10:11   If I had something where I did like a quarterly show or a twice a year show and

00:10:16   like maybe if I did a live show after the September, you know,

00:10:20   iPhone event or something like that.

00:10:22   Eddy Cue might be good then,

00:10:24   but I feel like WWDC in particular,

00:10:26   when the news is supposed to,

00:10:28   and in late, most years recently really is,

00:10:31   mostly about software, it's, you know,

00:10:34   there's, it wouldn't really make any sense

00:10:37   just to have him on because it's not his domain.

00:10:41   - Yeah, also, I would also say like,

00:10:44   one of the greatest things we saw

00:10:45   at the live talk show this year

00:10:47   is that we on the outside got to see,

00:10:51   in a very, very rare circumstance,

00:10:53   we got to see two Apple SVPs interacting with each other.

00:10:58   And if you think about it,

00:10:59   what other chances do we ever have to see that?

00:11:02   And from what I understand,

00:11:04   again, talking to some people inside the company,

00:11:06   even most people who work in the company

00:11:08   rarely see two SVPs in the same room,

00:11:11   'cause usually you're presenting to at most one of them.

00:11:14   So to see two execs who have clearly worked together

00:11:18   for a very long time and know each other really well

00:11:21   and clearly respect each other very much,

00:11:23   who are also good in all these other ways,

00:11:25   it really brought a lot of amazing humanity

00:11:28   and just insight into just who these people actually are.

00:11:31   And this is something that you're not gonna get

00:11:34   in a carefully scripted keynote

00:11:36   or any kind of carefully planned event.

00:11:38   And this is why I love this show so much,

00:11:40   because you get to do this

00:11:41   and you get to reveal this to the world,

00:11:44   and you do it in a way that, because it's a podcast,

00:11:49   I love podcasting because if you write something

00:11:52   on a blog or on a news site,

00:11:54   that spreads all over the place really quickly

00:11:56   if there's anything about it that's controversial

00:11:57   or inflammatory or anything else.

00:11:59   Believe me, I know that better than a lot of people.

00:12:02   And that can often be prohibitive

00:12:04   to encouraging people to continue writing.

00:12:07   With a podcast, it seems like just because podcasts,

00:12:11   they just don't really spread like wildfire

00:12:13   the way text spreads.

00:12:15   You can quote someone's post or paraphrase someone's post,

00:12:19   stick an inflammatory headline on it

00:12:20   and it just spreads like wildfire.

00:12:23   Podcasts, that just doesn't happen.

00:12:25   I thought last year when you had Phil on,

00:12:28   which, let's anybody forget,

00:12:29   that was remarkable at the time,

00:12:31   I thought that was gonna be literally world news.

00:12:35   I thought it was gonna be reported on CNN

00:12:38   that this happened and everything that was said

00:12:40   would have been scrutinized and reported on

00:12:43   just as much as an Apple press release would have.

00:12:46   And instead, there was one MacRumors article about it.

00:12:49   It was almost nothing, almost nothing happened.

00:12:51   And then the same thing happened this year,

00:12:53   where again, it's like now you have two Apple executives.

00:12:55   Now you should have CNN and the New York Times

00:12:57   reporting on it, double the coverage.

00:12:59   And again, you had one MacRumors article

00:13:01   and basically nothing else.

00:13:03   - Yeah, I thought the same thing last year.

00:13:05   Not necessarily that I was disappointed, I was just curious.

00:13:09   And I think one measure of it would be tech meme.

00:13:14   And it's like, I write blog posts that get more attention

00:13:17   on tech meme than this.

00:13:20   The good thing is that I found with my experience,

00:13:23   like I've been writing a lot less in part because

00:13:27   of this problem of just like any slip up

00:13:30   and it spreads like wildfire.

00:13:32   And in podcasting, that just doesn't happen.

00:13:34   But also because of that effect, the podcasting kind of--

00:13:38   and because of the conversational nature of it just being more casual, podcasting is kind

00:13:44   of like a safe space. And you can go on a podcast, you can talk off script and answer

00:13:52   questions that you didn't get in advance or that were unplanned or whatever. You can accept

00:13:56   that gig because it really isn't dangerous. People give you the benefit of the doubt,

00:14:01   it doesn't really spread like wildfire if you screw something up in some kind of minor

00:14:05   way. It's a conversational context, so it doesn't seem as official or as like, you

00:14:09   know, coded in stone. And I feel like, you know, that's, again, that's something that

00:14:13   Apple never gets in any kind of public way. So it's, and for the listeners or the attendees

00:14:20   of the live show, it's almost like being led into like an exclusive club. Like, you

00:14:25   know, it's like, it's a club of obscurity, basically. Like, you know, we get to be here

00:14:30   and listen to this and get to know these people

00:14:33   and get these great insights into things,

00:14:36   but it's not a big problem for them

00:14:39   and they don't get in trouble for things they say.

00:14:42   It's kind of amazing.

00:14:43   - I was thinking about what you said before

00:14:46   about how we don't get to see Apple's executives

00:14:49   interact with each other in a personal way.

00:14:52   And one evidence of proof of that,

00:14:53   and again, I often bring up Scott Forstall.

00:14:57   And I have met him and I liked him, you know, like backstage after a keynote.

00:15:02   And I think he did fantastic work for the company.

00:15:05   And so, you know, I bring him up not to dump on him because I really think the

00:15:09   guy did a great job. But, famously, I mean, it was, you know,

00:15:15   he did not get along well with the rest of the

00:15:17   leadership team. I mean, the press release announcing his,

00:15:20   I forget what they called it, but, you know, that he was no longer...

00:15:25   He was quit fired.

00:15:26   Well, his promotion to Tim Cook's assistant or whatever, special advisor.

00:15:33   That the title of the press release was something about enabling collaboration or something like

00:15:41   that. It was very clear. And my sense since that, but on stage you'd never know it. Shiller to

00:15:50   Forrestal handing off in a keynote, and here to tell you all about it is Senior Vice President

00:15:56   Scott Forrestal, is exactly the same as his interaction with Federighi now, because they're

00:16:04   pros. They're total pros. They're polished. From the outside, you'd never have any idea

00:16:09   whether there was a difference, whereas on stage, with those two, you could tell that

00:16:13   they like each other.

00:16:14   Yeah, totally.

00:16:15   The way they razzed each other, especially Phil Razzing, Federighi.

00:16:18   Oh, yeah.

00:16:19   Yeah, I thought it went pretty well.

00:16:22   And you know me, I'm not gonna sit here and say how good my show was, but...

00:16:25   Yeah, I will.

00:16:26   It was really good.

00:16:27   So we did.

00:16:28   I love how uncomfortable this makes you.

00:16:30   It does.

00:16:31   It really does.

00:16:32   Let's talk about the problems with the show.

00:16:33   We had audio problems.

00:16:34   We had this feedback at the beginning.

00:16:37   And anybody who's watching the video, watch the video, the recorded one on Vimeo or listen

00:16:42   to the podcast.

00:16:43   You won't hear it.

00:16:44   I don't know.

00:16:45   I don't think Caleb had to clean that up.

00:16:48   I don't think he had to remove it.

00:16:49   I think that the audio, like the mics didn't pick it up.

00:16:52   But what happened, and it wasn't Caleb's fault,

00:16:56   it was during the, and they definitely did a sound check,

00:17:00   but Caleb let the house sound guy at Mezzanine,

00:17:05   who was new, he wasn't the same guy as last year,

00:17:07   talk him out of a, I don't know what, I don't even know,

00:17:10   I didn't wanna know what the details were,

00:17:12   but Caleb let the guy talk him out of something

00:17:14   against Caleb's better judgment,

00:17:16   and then the fix, five or 10 minutes into the show,

00:17:19   was exactly what Caleb wanted to do at the outset.

00:17:23   It violates the number one rule of sound equipment, which is get it working and then don't touch

00:17:27   anything.

00:17:28   Yeah, I'm not sure where that went wrong, but it did get straightened out.

00:17:31   It wasn't too bad.

00:17:35   If anybody watched the video and I look a little bit like I'm looking around, it was

00:17:40   because of the feedback.

00:17:43   But you won't hear it when you watch on the show.

00:17:47   The other thing I think that I wonder how it affects the immediate, "Holy shit, these

00:17:51   two guys are on Gruber's show," is that the show doesn't come out right away.

00:17:56   This year it didn't come out till Friday, so I feel like on my list for what can I fix

00:18:00   for next year is figure out who do I have to pay, what do I have to do to get the video

00:18:04   out hopefully like 24 hours.

00:18:06   Well, on the other hand though, why?

00:18:09   If the show doesn't make national news and they don't get in trouble for anything they

00:18:14   then that makes it easier to get them back. The main reason to turn to get the

00:18:20   turnaround quicker is just to make people who want to watch it happier. I

00:18:23   don't think it would have... I don't think it would really make a big difference in

00:18:27   terms of publicity. The main reason is that I know just from my tweets and the

00:18:32   emails that people were like chomping at the bit to get it. And I would be too if

00:18:36   there were two of me and one who does the show and the other one who just

00:18:38   listens to the show and really likes it. I would have been too if I couldn't get

00:18:42   to the live show. You know what you should do? You should hire the Apple

00:18:46   W2C video team because they get stuff out the next morning. I know, that's

00:18:50   amazing. They've really upped that. It's really incredible how quickly

00:18:55   they get it out. Yeah. The live stream broke this year. Last year it stayed up,

00:18:59   but this year it broke. I would suggest maybe doing an audio only live stream

00:19:03   because it's, I mean, unless you go to something like YouTube live, which should

00:19:06   also be probably an easier way to do it, but audio is a lot easier to scale up.

00:19:11   And we did that two years ago when you and your ATP pals were the guest.

00:19:17   That's how I know that.

00:19:19   Because we were streaming it off of my iPad in the back on Verizon and it was fine.

00:19:25   Absolutely true.

00:19:28   The thing I love about that, I don't know if it helped you because then you wouldn't

00:19:32   be nervous, it gave you something to do, or if it just made you even more nervous because

00:19:38   instead of thinking about the show, you were fiddling with it.

00:19:40   But the back story on that was that literally,

00:19:44   right up until we opened the doors to let people in,

00:19:47   you were back there.

00:19:48   And we weren't planning it.

00:19:49   You were just like, well, why don't we livestream it?

00:19:50   I can do it.

00:19:51   And you just took out your iPad and were plugging it

00:19:54   into the board.

00:19:56   It was worse than that.

00:19:57   You said, oh, by the way, we don't

00:19:58   have a way to record this.

00:20:00   So I was providing the only recording of it

00:20:03   and also the livestream.

00:20:04   That was a poorly planned show.

00:20:06   Poorly planned show.

00:20:08   That's funny that we've gone from there to here

00:20:10   in two years, I do keep pretty good notes

00:20:12   about what to improve for the next year.

00:20:15   - No, I'd say you now have a pretty good,

00:20:19   you have the Kings worked out,

00:20:20   and I would say just repeat this,

00:20:22   and maybe change the way you stream the video,

00:20:24   and that's about it.

00:20:25   - Yeah.

00:20:26   Seemed like people had a good time.

00:20:29   - Yeah, oh yeah, it was good, it was a good event,

00:20:31   and yeah, again, I mean, you won't say it, but I will.

00:20:35   It was great, and you should definitely

00:20:38   keep doing it if you can.

00:20:39   Yeah, I'll see what I can do, hopefully.

00:20:41   I thought it went well.

00:20:42   How about I take a break right here

00:20:45   and I thank our first sponsor.

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00:22:56   Anything else on the live show?

00:23:01   I feel like that covers it.

00:23:02   Anyway, I had a good time.

00:23:03   I have not watched it.

00:23:04   I can't bring myself to watch it yet.

00:23:06   I watched last year's at some point,

00:23:07   but I didn't watch this year's yet.

00:23:09   So maybe I should have watched it

00:23:11   before we started talking about it here.

00:23:13   - I listened to it again.

00:23:14   - macOS, here's my thing about macOS.

00:23:18   I can't believe that they changed the name to macOS,

00:23:21   but kept the 10.12 version numbering.

00:23:25   What is that 10 now?

00:23:26   Why, is this 10 forever?

00:23:28   - Well, you know, I think it's a lot like,

00:23:30   like, you know, like the dumb Windows kernel version thing

00:23:32   where Windows 2000 was NT 5.0, I think,

00:23:36   and then XP was 5.1, and it stayed at five for a while.

00:23:40   Just the numbers doesn't mean anything

00:23:42   relative to the marketing name and the marketing sequence.

00:23:47   So I think that it just doesn't really matter.

00:23:49   I'm kind of surprised, though,

00:23:50   that they kept the California names,

00:23:52   and I'm kind of surprised they didn't just call this

00:23:54   Mac OS 12.

00:23:55   It seemed like even though people would have made fun

00:23:57   of them, oh, you skipped 11,

00:23:58   I think that would have made a lot more sense

00:24:00   to just say, all right, this is now Mac OS 12,

00:24:02   and then next year Mac OS 13 or whatever.

00:24:03   But I guess those numbers don't scale very well.

00:24:06   Nobody wants like Mac OS 17, I don't know.

00:24:08   - It did seem weird that they give,

00:24:11   I think they could have done both though.

00:24:12   They could have called it Mac OS 12 Sierra.

00:24:15   - Yeah, maybe, that's a lot of tokens.

00:24:17   - I don't know why.

00:24:18   Why does Mac OS get a code name and iOS doesn't?

00:24:21   I don't get that.

00:24:23   - Well, and maybe because of the high numbering problem,

00:24:26   like once you get into the teens,

00:24:27   it kind of is less cool sounding.

00:24:30   maybe they're going to transition iOS

00:24:32   onto a code name system.

00:24:33   And maybe they would unify the code.

00:24:35   Maybe they would say, you know,

00:24:36   this year we have iOS Sierra and Mac OS Sierra.

00:24:39   I don't know.

00:24:40   There's a lot of things they could do there,

00:24:41   but I do think the numbers are really nice

00:24:43   and clean and simple now because they're relatively low.

00:24:46   But once you get into the teens and stuff, it's less cool.

00:24:50   - Anything else?

00:24:54   WatchOS 3.

00:24:55   - I love that.

00:24:56   I love that it's all we can talk about about Mac OS,

00:24:58   the name.

00:25:00   Well, have you used it yet?

00:25:01   I actually have.

00:25:02   I actually have it on a MacBook Pro downstairs.

00:25:05   And it's exactly the sort of thing I would like--

00:25:11   I'd like to see Apple do, which is it doesn't feel--

00:25:15   you could easily convince me that it wasn't even

00:25:17   a new version of Mac OS X. And it's like, oh, yeah, yeah,

00:25:20   look, that looks a little different.

00:25:21   They've changed a little bit here and there.

00:25:23   But it is such a minor refinement

00:25:26   in terms of everything I'm used to.

00:25:28   and then they've just added some nice new features.

00:25:31   - Yeah, and I'm happy with that too.

00:25:32   I mean, from a developer's point of view,

00:25:34   I would love to see some modernization of AppKit

00:25:38   and possibly some kind of cross-platform AppKit,

00:25:40   UIKit kind of hybrid.

00:25:42   So I basically wouldn't have to learn AppKit.

00:25:45   (laughs)

00:25:47   But I understand also why that's kind of a big job

00:25:50   and probably not worth doing necessarily.

00:25:53   - Ah, that's a good question. - Or maybe waiting until,

00:25:56   presumably in the future,

00:25:57   there's gonna be some kind of rewrite or refactoring

00:26:01   of a lot of the frameworks to better optimize for Swift.

00:26:04   And beyond just renaming.

00:26:07   Right now they've basically renamed them

00:26:08   when you're using them from Swift and that's about it.

00:26:10   But there's more that you could do there

00:26:13   to really optimize these things for Swift.

00:26:15   So maybe down the road they're planning on

00:26:18   a bigger change to the frameworks

00:26:20   and maybe they would unify them then.

00:26:21   'Cause as you talk about it often,

00:26:23   Apple's a very patient company.

00:26:25   And when it comes to long-term technical decisions

00:26:27   like this, they're willing to wait five, 10 years

00:26:30   to do what they need to do if they think

00:26:32   it'll be better later to do it then.

00:26:34   So I think it would be interesting to see

00:26:37   if they ever do tackle this problem

00:26:38   or if they just kinda consider, you know,

00:26:40   AppKit's the right tool for this job

00:26:41   and UIKit's the right tool for that job,

00:26:43   which there's some basis for that.

00:26:45   Not 100%, but there's some basis for that.

00:26:47   And maybe they just kinda consider the Mac

00:26:48   to be kind of like a completed platform.

00:26:51   We don't need to do much on this anymore.

00:26:53   I don't know.

00:26:54   - Yeah, sort of like the way I treat Markdown.

00:26:56   - Yeah, right.

00:26:57   - I mean, no joke.

00:26:58   I mean, it's seriously like, you know,

00:27:00   it is what it is, you know, move on with the other stuff.

00:27:02   Maybe, I don't know.

00:27:03   I think you're right though that if they do do it,

00:27:05   it would probably coincide

00:27:06   with a swiftification of frameworks.

00:27:10   - Right, or if all these rumblers I keep hearing about,

00:27:12   they're like being like a single unified OS

00:27:14   coming down the road with new everything,

00:27:17   you know, for the car and God knows what else, you know,

00:27:19   then if that is actually true

00:27:22   and coming in the next five years,

00:27:25   then that would be the time to do it.

00:27:27   - Yeah, I don't know.

00:27:29   - I don't give that rumor a lot of weight, honestly,

00:27:31   because it seems really grand, and I don't know.

00:27:35   - It just seems to me, like, when I study it

00:27:37   and think about it, and it's like,

00:27:38   I'm trying to think about what to write

00:27:40   about the Mac OS beta.

00:27:42   I keep thinking about something Guy English,

00:27:45   friend of the show Guy English, said to me

00:27:47   last week when I was asking just friends,

00:27:51   I didn't say who, I just said, hey, let's just say if I got to interview somebody, interesting.

00:27:56   What are some questions?

00:27:57   Do you guys have any questions that you wish I would ask?

00:27:59   And Guy had pointed out that when Steve Jobs introduced the Mac OS X 10.0 back in 2001,

00:28:09   he framed it as saying, this is the operating system for the next 15 years.

00:28:14   Well, that was 15 years ago.

00:28:19   And I think it's almost, you know, he was trying to say this is the operating system for the, you know, the long term for Apple.

00:28:25   This is something that Apple can really, so what, Apple was, what, they're 40 years old now, so they were a 25 year old company then.

00:28:31   This is, you know, it was as far away from the original Mac as we are today.

00:28:38   I think, if anything, in hindsight, Jobs clearly undersold the longevity of the platform.

00:28:44   that's the thing I look at when I look at Mac OS 10.12 is that this doesn't feel

00:28:47   like an operating system on its last legs. This feels like an operating system

00:28:51   that is still in its prime and doing it's exactly what it wants to be and

00:28:55   really doesn't need anything major. I mean it could and it's someday something

00:29:01   like a you know your example about doing a lot of UI kitification to AppKit or

00:29:08   bringing UIKit to Mac OS 10 in some way to sit there alongside AppKit or who

00:29:13   Who knows?

00:29:14   There are major changes someday,

00:29:16   but at the moment it's really just fine

00:29:18   and does its job very well.

00:29:20   And the way I put it a couple years ago,

00:29:21   and it's funny too because I said something

00:29:24   about the next five years,

00:29:25   but it was like five years ago.

00:29:27   So I undersold it as much five years ago as Jobs did, 15,

00:29:31   was that the heaviness of the Mac, conceptually,

00:29:35   that it's so, you can have so many windows open

00:29:38   and you can go so deep and you have all these options

00:29:40   like services and control, right-clicking

00:29:43   and getting these contextual menus,

00:29:45   and even just the existence of the menu bar.

00:29:47   That heaviness is what lets iOS remain so lightweight.

00:29:52   That you couldn't have it like the iPad

00:29:55   and make it as simple as it is

00:29:57   without having a platform to go with it

00:30:00   that is as complicated as the Mac.

00:30:02   - I mean, the downside of that logic though,

00:30:06   which I think is mostly sound,

00:30:08   but the downside of that is that kind of assumes

00:30:11   that they will be both maintained over time

00:30:14   and will both succeed over time.

00:30:16   And I'm not sure that's a safe assumption to make.

00:30:20   - I wonder if it doesn't also conversely tie into

00:30:23   the fact that there's some productivity tasks

00:30:28   that just still aren't that great to do on an iPad.

00:30:31   You know, that it works both ways.

00:30:34   That it's like, they just haven't been,

00:30:38   they haven't felt forced to enable the iPad

00:30:40   to be good at X, because yeah, you could just use

00:30:43   your MacBook for that.

00:30:45   - Well, but also, as they have added more productivity

00:30:49   features to iOS, and especially to the iPad,

00:30:52   you're kind of seeing them basically try to address

00:30:54   the same problems, like basically trying to make it

00:30:56   closer to a Mac kind of environment.

00:30:58   So now you have things like a basic form of windowing,

00:31:01   and multiple windows on screen.

00:31:03   You have these document pickers that are a simplified view

00:31:07   of a file system that are still files.

00:31:09   They're having to solve the same problems

00:31:13   and oftentimes the solutions they come up with

00:31:16   are actually not substantially better than the solutions

00:31:19   that the PC and Mac world figured out years ago.

00:31:22   Sometimes they are, but it seems like

00:31:25   they're both kind of aiming for the same thing

00:31:28   where they try to make Mac OS easier to use

00:31:31   and more iOS-like in ways.

00:31:33   At the same time, they're trying to make iOS

00:31:36   more productive and more suited for pro use.

00:31:39   and by doing that they're kind of making iOS

00:31:41   a little more Mac-like in these certain areas.

00:31:44   And I'm not sure either effort

00:31:47   is a huge success necessarily.

00:31:49   I think the effort to proify iOS

00:31:54   is probably more successful

00:31:55   than the effort to iOSify the Mac.

00:31:58   - I think that if you think about it,

00:31:59   I can't think of anything this year

00:32:00   that really was iOSification of the Mac.

00:32:03   I feel like maybe they're done with that,

00:32:05   and they've done enough of it that they wanted to,

00:32:09   and now they're just letting the Mac be the Mac.

00:32:10   I mean, maybe I'm overlooking something,

00:32:13   but I can't think of anything.

00:32:15   - No, you might be right.

00:32:16   I mean, maybe it does seem like they've kind of

00:32:19   figured out that the Mac doesn't need to be iOS,

00:32:22   that it can stand on its own.

00:32:24   Maybe they've gained more confidence in it

00:32:26   as being its own thing.

00:32:27   - Yeah, I can't think of anything.

00:32:30   I mean, there are features that are obviously

00:32:31   in parallel with iOS,

00:32:34   like the fancy new messages, animations,

00:32:37   and stuff like that.

00:32:38   But that's not really iOS-ifying the Mac,

00:32:40   that's just getting the same stuff at the same time.

00:32:43   - Yeah, but ultimately, in the long haul,

00:32:47   I think having iOS be this juggernaut

00:32:50   that is most of the market for Apple,

00:32:53   it will hurt the Mac, it will cost the Mac,

00:32:55   because you have situations,

00:32:57   like Messages apps are a great example of this,

00:32:59   where you can now have, until iOS 10,

00:33:04   iMessage worked basically the same way

00:33:07   on all three platforms, iPad, iPhone, Mac.

00:33:10   It worked the same way,

00:33:11   it had the same capabilities roughly.

00:33:13   With the new version of Messages,

00:33:14   now you're gonna have this large amount of functionality,

00:33:17   especially if the app thing takes off,

00:33:19   which other Messages services have had apps

00:33:22   that have taken off, so they probably will.

00:33:24   And Apple's pretty good at apps and making apps take off,

00:33:27   as long as you weren't talking about the TV.

00:33:29   So by having this big app environment

00:33:33   that's going to take off on iOS,

00:33:35   and having almost none of it available on the Mac,

00:33:38   and having no easy technical bridge there

00:33:42   because the Mac is not UIKit and is not iOS

00:33:46   and is not running all these same frameworks

00:33:47   and does not have the same kind of extension system

00:33:49   and binary support and everything else,

00:33:51   I suspect that the Mac is gonna have some trouble

00:33:54   in the next few years if this stuff takes off

00:33:56   because it's going to feel even more

00:33:59   like a second-class citizen than it does now.

00:34:04   I don't know, maybe. I mean, and that does tie in. This is a good, it's a good segue, I think,

00:34:08   because it does tie into, I can't believe I almost forgot to bring this up, is I have one major

00:34:14   regret from the live show. There was one question from my list. Like I said, there were a bunch that

00:34:19   I didn't get to that were fine, that were just sort of like, "Hey, if we have time, I'll get to

00:34:22   these, and if not," but there was one on that I had above the line of definitely want to ask

00:34:27   that I didn't get to, and it was on the tip of my tongue at one point, but it didn't seem

00:34:34   like the right moment and then after that it was like out of my mind and I'd forgotten it.

00:34:38   And the question would have been for Phil and it would have been more or less along the lines of

00:34:43   the Mac Pro hasn't been updated in over 900 days. I think as of the showtime it was 908 days.

00:34:50   And the Mac Mini hasn't been updated in over 600 days. And why do you hate pro customers?

00:35:00   And but it you know insert audience laughter there, but the true thing is I know for a fact talking to

00:35:08   developer friends and just reading email from from DF the Daring Fireball audience which has

00:35:17   in addition to developers I definitely have a lot of readers and listeners who are professionals in

00:35:22   video and photography and other things where you they want a new Mac Pro and they the concern is

00:35:28   is palpable that they worry that Apple's phenomenal success

00:35:33   selling consumer products has left them disinterested

00:35:39   in professional products.

00:35:41   - Yeah, and I think that concern is warranted

00:35:43   based on a lot of the stuff that's happened

00:35:44   over the last few years.

00:35:45   Like a lot of, yeah, I mean, first of all,

00:35:46   losing things like Aperture and then seeing,

00:35:50   even the Final Cut transition to Final Cut,

00:35:53   now is that one X or 10?

00:35:54   I honestly don't know.

00:35:56   - I don't know.

00:35:57   - I'm gonna say 10, I'm gonna guess 10.

00:36:00   That, I know, a lot of pros are still sore about that.

00:36:03   And from what I understand, that's mostly been kinda,

00:36:05   people now are okay with it.

00:36:07   But the software side, Apple has definitely backed away

00:36:10   from the pro market to a large degree.

00:36:12   The hardware side, I think it's been even more dramatic.

00:36:16   And granted, a lot of pros get away just fine with iMacs.

00:36:19   A lot of pros use the MacBook Pro,

00:36:21   and they're mostly fine with that too,

00:36:22   although it's pretty old.

00:36:24   I think one of the problems we have now,

00:36:26   and which ties into the Thunderbolt display thing also.

00:36:29   But one of the problems we have now is that

00:36:33   it seems like Apple has,

00:36:34   whoever is responsible for deciding these,

00:36:38   like, you know, these hardware generations

00:36:40   and when to ship things and what makes the cut

00:36:42   and what gets pushed to the next release,

00:36:45   it seems like their sensibility for,

00:36:49   do we ship now with the new stuff we've accumulated so far

00:36:52   or do we wait and do a bigger update in X time

00:36:56   with this stuff that's imminent, that we're soon,

00:36:59   if we wait now, we'll be able to do a bigger update

00:37:02   in six months that has X, Y, and Z.

00:37:04   And it seems like their sensibility for that

00:37:07   is just a little bit off in recent years.

00:37:10   'Cause there are new components they could have used

00:37:13   for the Mac Pro.

00:37:14   And the Mac Pro uses Xeon CPUs, Intel's server line.

00:37:17   Xeon's don't get released that often.

00:37:19   They get released, I think, roughly every 18 months.

00:37:21   There's a new generation of Xeon's that would be suitable

00:37:23   to use in the Mac Pro.

00:37:25   GPUs get released even more often than that.

00:37:28   And for Apple to say that this is a,

00:37:31   like they redesigned this entire machine

00:37:33   to be entirely like GPU focused,

00:37:36   that you can't even buy this with only one GPU anymore.

00:37:40   You can only get it with two GPUs

00:37:42   and they're gonna be server-ish

00:37:44   or workstation-ish grade GPUs.

00:37:46   There's some asterisks on that,

00:37:47   but basically they're gonna be workstation GPUs.

00:37:49   And this is the future of how we see pro computing

00:37:54   is these heavy GPU operating machines.

00:37:57   Well, the GPU world moves really quickly,

00:38:00   way faster than the CPU world ever did,

00:38:02   and it's still moving at that speed.

00:38:04   You can't say your vision for pro computing

00:38:07   is tons of GPU power, and then not update the GPUs

00:38:10   that you're selling for three years.

00:38:13   Like, it seems like they set on this course of,

00:38:16   we're gonna, you know, this is our vision

00:38:17   of the future of computing, and then they just

00:38:19   didn't follow through at all, and to the point now where,

00:38:23   A year in it was kind of like,

00:38:26   eh, I wish these GPUs were faster.

00:38:28   Two years in it was like, ah, is everything okay?

00:38:30   Three years in, people are looking for the exits

00:38:32   and looking to switch to Windows for their pro needs.

00:38:35   And that's a problem.

00:38:36   - It definitely is because,

00:38:37   and I think that in an ideal world,

00:38:42   well, maybe not ideal, 'cause ideal would be updated very,

00:38:44   you know, we'd see lots of updates.

00:38:46   I would say in a realistically ideal world,

00:38:49   the Mac Pro could still be on a greater than one year cycle.

00:38:54   I think, you know, it could, like 18 months though

00:38:57   is about the upper limit of some kind of update.

00:39:00   - And fortunately, that's about as often

00:39:02   as Intel makes new Xeons.

00:39:03   So all Apple has to do is stop skipping generations.

00:39:06   'Cause right now, like in recent times,

00:39:09   the Mac Pro for maybe the last, I don't know,

00:39:11   six, seven years, they've released roughly

00:39:15   every other Xeon generation.

00:39:17   Like they just kind of skip every other one.

00:39:19   And I don't, you know, I'm sure there,

00:39:21   maybe there's good reasons why,

00:39:22   but I'm not aware of what those are.

00:39:24   And it appears from the outside

00:39:26   like they just don't feel like it.

00:39:27   And that's not a good reason if that's the reason.

00:39:29   And again, like even if for some reason

00:39:32   you have to keep the same CPUs,

00:39:35   if this computer's really gonna be a GPU focused machine,

00:39:38   release new GPUs for it.

00:39:39   And by the way, this is a pro machine,

00:39:41   make those GPUs upgradeable.

00:39:44   Because that's what pros who need a lot of GPUs need.

00:39:47   They need upgradable, powerful, recent GPUs.

00:39:50   - Right. - And if that's not

00:39:52   the focus of the machine, then make it cheaper

00:39:55   by making a single GPU option and give more CPU options.

00:39:59   Maybe redesign it so it can support two sockets again.

00:40:01   Then you can have then double the amount

00:40:04   of very high-speed cores, double the number of RAM slots.

00:40:07   It's like they designed this machine to accomplish a goal

00:40:11   that they are seemingly unable or unwilling

00:40:14   to actually fulfill.

00:40:15   (laughing)

00:40:17   It's just funny because it's a striking design

00:40:21   and obviously it wasn't designed as a second thought.

00:40:26   It was designed as let's redefine what it means

00:40:29   to make a kick-ass professional high-performance desktop.

00:40:34   But then it was, again, it's almost like they figured,

00:40:38   well, we're done.

00:40:39   We came up with a new Mac Pro and now we're done.

00:40:42   Let's work on the iPhone 6s.

00:40:44   - Yeah, and it's sad because it does seem like,

00:40:48   from the outside, having no answers from Apple on this,

00:40:51   it does seem like they just don't care.

00:40:53   And the whole Mac lineup kinda looks like that right now,

00:40:57   or at least the vast majority of it.

00:40:59   And it's, I know they do care,

00:41:01   like I know that's not actually the case,

00:41:04   but it sure looks bad.

00:41:05   - It does, and it definitely doesn't.

00:41:07   And maybe it's not even entirely rational.

00:41:09   I think people's professionals' concerns

00:41:11   about Apple's long-term interest in this,

00:41:13   It's just that if your personal livelihood is based on

00:41:17   what you do at your computer, and that's probably true,

00:41:20   it's certainly true for me and you,

00:41:21   and it's true for a lot of people who listen,

00:41:23   I think, to this show.

00:41:24   It's reasonable to be concerned that the only company

00:41:28   that makes the tools that you use

00:41:30   may not be interested in serving you anymore.

00:41:32   - Right, 'cause like, that's like, you know,

00:41:33   one thing pro users hate with very good reason

00:41:36   is being forced to change what they use to their job,

00:41:39   either their workflow, their hardware,

00:41:40   their software, whatever.

00:41:41   They hate doing that because it sucks.

00:41:43   Because when you're using something to get your work done,

00:41:46   you don't want to have to spend a bunch of time and money

00:41:48   to change systems, to relearn something else,

00:41:51   to update everything and fix everything that breaks

00:41:53   and deal with missing functionality for a while

00:41:55   or have to buy new hardware, buy new software.

00:41:57   It's very disruptive to pros to have their platform

00:42:02   and their workflow messed with or be forced to change it.

00:42:05   So when you're buying something for pro use,

00:42:07   you want to be buying into a system

00:42:08   that's going to be stable long term.

00:42:11   You don't want to have to be learning an app now

00:42:13   that is going to be discontinued next year.

00:42:15   And oh, by the way, you have to also switch to Windows

00:42:18   if you want to be competitive with your video encoding rig

00:42:20   or whatever.

00:42:21   Nobody wants that.

00:42:22   And it kind of feels like this is

00:42:25   going to be like a downward spiral, where Apple will keep

00:42:30   really neglecting the pro hardware, which will then

00:42:33   make people trust it less, and they won't sell as many.

00:42:36   And then Apple can justify discontinuing those,

00:42:39   or neglecting them further.

00:42:40   and then they can say, well, we just don't sell

00:42:41   very many of these, so why should we pay attention to these?

00:42:43   - Yeah, it's, you know, I feel like it doesn't take

00:42:46   a genius to analyze the situation,

00:42:48   where the Mac is the pro platform,

00:42:51   and iOS is the consumer platform,

00:42:54   and especially with the iPhone, that's where the,

00:42:59   you know, there's, what, I don't know,

00:43:02   20-fold, 30-fold more of them sold per quarter,

00:43:06   all around the world.

00:43:08   It's their expansion into all these other countries

00:43:11   like India and especially China.

00:43:14   So of course, of course it's their most important priority.

00:43:19   Of course they're never going to be late on an iPhone.

00:43:22   Or if they are, it's a catastrophe,

00:43:24   not as a result of, eh, we can wait.

00:43:27   Like imagine if the iPhone didn't get updated for 900 days.

00:43:30   You can't, I mean, literally,

00:43:32   I know people make these jokes that,

00:43:34   the stock's down 10%, Tim Cook should be fired.

00:43:36   Or I shouldn't even say they make jokes.

00:43:38   I know there's jackasses who actually say that.

00:43:40   - They're serious. (laughs)

00:43:42   - But with no hyperbole, if Apple got even close to that,

00:43:48   if Apple went two years without an iPhone update,

00:43:52   I think it would be reasonable for the board

00:43:54   to maybe call Tim Cook in and say, "It's time, you're out."

00:43:57   - Yeah, that would be cause for serious concern.

00:44:00   - Right, it's like you can't even,

00:44:01   really it's unfathomable.

00:44:04   So 900 days for the Mac Pro,

00:44:05   you know, it's not gonna get anybody fired,

00:44:08   but it certainly looks bad.

00:44:09   And I can even see it with the Mac Mini,

00:44:10   where the Mac Mini's never been updated quickly.

00:44:12   And maybe that's not really a pro machine,

00:44:14   although I do know that there are some people

00:44:16   who use it in pro sort of ways by like, you know,

00:44:19   setting up like build machines and stuff like that.

00:44:22   - Yeah, or like servers for offices,

00:44:24   or even web servers in some cases.

00:44:25   - Right, and you know, my friend Brian Stuckey,

00:44:28   formerly of Mac Mini, colo, and now at Mac Stadium,

00:44:33   is the new company that he combined with.

00:44:35   - Yeah, they bought them, right?

00:44:36   - Yeah, well they merged.

00:44:38   And he even, I know he sent me like,

00:44:41   hey please ask, if you get any,

00:44:43   I don't know who you've got on the talk show,

00:44:45   but if you get anybody good,

00:44:46   can you please ask him about my poor Mac Mini?

00:44:48   So there is a pro angle on the Mac Mini.

00:44:52   - Yeah, but also it's worth pointing out too,

00:44:53   like the current generation Mac Mini

00:44:56   and the current generation Mac Pro

00:44:58   both do a lot less than their previous hardware designs.

00:45:03   So they've taken these products and not only have they made them, in the case of the Mac

00:45:08   Pro it's actually more expensive now because now you have to pay for two GPUs, so now it's

00:45:11   more expensive and it has less flexibility and less upgradability and fewer configuration

00:45:18   options and less stuff you can put into it, less maximum capacity in a lot of areas.

00:45:23   And the Mac Mini too, the Mac Mini used to have a quad core option and it was a really

00:45:27   great way to get a decent amount of power in this little headless server and occasionally

00:45:33   they go up for sale on the Apple refurb store

00:45:36   and they just disappear in like a minute.

00:45:39   Like there is still incredible demand

00:45:42   for I believe it was a 2012 era CPU

00:45:46   in these roughly 2012 era Mac minis

00:45:48   because they happen to be quad core

00:45:50   and that's a lot more processing power in total

00:45:53   in parallel than the current model's dual core

00:45:57   highest configuration.

00:45:59   - Yeah and a lot of what people wanna do

00:46:01   is these things that are parallelizable.

00:46:02   Right, especially in a server.

00:46:04   Or even if you're using it at home,

00:46:06   like for a media thing for your TV,

00:46:08   or if you're using it as a build server, all those things

00:46:10   use all the cores.

00:46:12   Almost everything that a pro would want to do with it

00:46:15   is parallel.

00:46:16   And even for home users, at least make the option.

00:46:19   So Apple has these machines now where they're actually

00:46:22   making them worse, and in some cases worse and more expensive

00:46:27   over time, and updating them almost never.

00:46:31   And then so of course sales are gonna go down,

00:46:34   which again, it's gonna make that downward spiral start,

00:46:36   where then they won't be able to justify updating them.

00:46:39   And it's just gonna get worse.

00:46:40   And I feel like, you know, and we're gonna get to this,

00:46:43   I think if we ever get to the headphone jack,

00:46:44   and you probably shouldn't let us get to that,

00:46:47   'cause I have a lot to say about that.

00:46:48   (laughing)

00:46:49   But-- - We're definitely

00:46:50   gonna get to that.

00:46:51   - It seems like Apple, somewhere in Apple

00:46:53   there's like this obsession with getting rid of things,

00:46:56   getting rid of options, getting rid of ports,

00:46:57   getting rid of hardware, getting rid of something,

00:47:01   just getting rid of things.

00:47:02   And I can see how you get that way.

00:47:05   I've gotten that way before in my software development,

00:47:07   where it feels really good to get rid of stuff.

00:47:10   And oftentimes there are benefits.

00:47:13   But not always.

00:47:14   It isn't always worth it.

00:47:15   And sometimes the costs outweigh the benefits.

00:47:18   And it seems like, similar to how I question

00:47:20   the decision making that has led to,

00:47:23   oh, we'll just wait until thing in the near future

00:47:26   to update this computer, I also question the judgment

00:47:29   recently of, oh, we can just take this out,

00:47:31   or we can just make this worse,

00:47:33   or we can just make this more expensive or whatever,

00:47:35   and it'll be worth it in the end

00:47:36   because we're moving forward.

00:47:37   It's the future, the vision of the future

00:47:39   is things can do less and cost more.

00:47:41   Like, no, but that's actually what we're seeing

00:47:44   in some of these products, and that does concern me.

00:47:48   - I think so, too.

00:47:51   It would've been interesting to ask,

00:47:52   so I regret not asking that question.

00:47:54   I don't know how we could've gone that long on stage

00:47:56   with it, but probably not.

00:47:57   I would've been interested in hearing--

00:47:58   that you didn't. There were, prior to WWDC, up until a couple of weeks, there were a lot of

00:48:04   expectations that there might be hardware announcements and if there would, you know,

00:48:07   Mac. People were thinking maybe new Mac books, maybe a new Mac Pro. I don't really think that

00:48:12   new Mac Pro ever really heated up too much, but there were whispers that the supply constraint

00:48:21   train of Thunderbolt displays was going down.

00:48:24   And it's just one of these like catch-22 chicken

00:48:28   and the egg problems, right?

00:48:30   Like which comes first, like, well, if they're gonna,

00:48:33   you know, they need a, desperately need

00:48:36   a retina standalone display.

00:48:38   Like at this point, once you're used to retina

00:48:40   on all of your devices, from the watch to your phone

00:48:43   to your iPad, and the iMac has this beautiful,

00:48:47   beautiful display, it just sticks out like a sore thumb

00:48:50   that their best display for a Mac Pro is not Retina.

00:48:53   And it's like, for me at this point,

00:48:55   it's like, I almost can't believe how,

00:48:57   I can't believe I lived my whole life

00:48:58   before Retina displays.

00:48:59   They're so fuzzy.

00:49:02   And so it sticks out, but if they make it,

00:49:07   what drives it, you know,

00:49:08   does, can they, you know,

00:49:09   if they came out with a 5K Retina display,

00:49:11   I think that the existing Mac Pro

00:49:13   wouldn't be able to drive it.

00:49:14   - Well, there's like, again,

00:49:15   there's like a whole bunch of asterisks on that.

00:49:16   it could with dual cables maybe and with certain hacks.

00:49:21   Basically, the way that displays are driven

00:49:25   over Thunderbolt ports is way more complicated.

00:49:29   The more, as time goes on, I learn even more about it

00:49:32   and I learn how little I know about it.

00:49:34   And basically there's an asterisk on everything

00:49:36   and it's not as simple as well,

00:49:39   Thunderbolt doesn't have enough bandwidth for this

00:49:40   because it isn't technically a Thunderbolt,

00:49:42   it's a DisplayPort that runs that.

00:49:43   And it's like, there's all these little asterisks

00:49:45   and like, well, you can make a bridge chip that did this,

00:49:47   you can use this hack over the cable to do this,

00:49:49   and it's basically a mess right now,

00:49:52   and it will be much cleaner and simpler with Thunderbolt 3.

00:49:56   - I remember when the original 5K iMac came out,

00:49:59   the first one, which is what I'm using right now.

00:50:02   - Me too. - Do you have the new one,

00:50:03   or do you have the original one?

00:50:04   - I have the same one you do.

00:50:05   - Yeah, so I have the exact same one that you do.

00:50:07   And I was talking after that was announced,

00:50:11   and I got to talk and I had like a product briefing,

00:50:13   and they explained to me,

00:50:15   like some of the product marketing people explained

00:50:17   exactly how they're driving it inside,

00:50:19   and it's just amazing.

00:50:20   It's such a hack.

00:50:21   I mean, not like a bad hack, like a dirty hack,

00:50:23   but it's just crazy.

00:50:25   But it totally makes sense as to,

00:50:27   it's like the embodiment of why Apple likes to make

00:50:30   an all-in-one product.

00:50:32   Because all of that ugliness,

00:50:33   they can just encapsulate it inside the thing,

00:50:36   and we'll just take care of it,

00:50:37   and we'll write our own,

00:50:39   I mean, they mentioned this on the event,

00:50:40   what do they call it, the custom--

00:50:42   - The T-Con, the timing controller.

00:50:44   - Yes, the timing controller,

00:50:45   because it's like they have to have these,

00:50:47   the reason they have a custom timing controller,

00:50:49   I think I have it in lay terms,

00:50:51   but because they need like two cables to do it,

00:50:55   they need this timing controller

00:50:56   so that the two signals coming in

00:50:59   look like you're just getting one picture.

00:51:01   - Yeah, it's basically it, yeah.

00:51:02   - It's two pictures that are being combined in once

00:51:05   out of Apple's very high frame rate

00:51:07   so that you don't notice anything.

00:51:09   They needed to write a custom timing controller.

00:51:12   It just perfectly embodies why Apple likes to make devices

00:51:15   like the iMac rather than the Mac Pro

00:51:17   with a standalone display.

00:51:19   So I think what's going on, I think what's going on

00:51:22   is that they're going to release a 5K cinema display

00:51:26   and they're gonna release new Mac Pros

00:51:28   and they're gonna release new MacBook Pros.

00:51:30   But it's like they can't release any of them

00:51:34   until they're all ready, I think.

00:51:36   - Honestly, that's probably just like a choice

00:51:39   that they want to release them all together.

00:51:41   I mean, they probably could stagger them a little bit

00:51:43   if they really felt like it,

00:51:45   but the fact is it doesn't really matter.

00:51:46   We don't really know.

00:51:48   - Yeah, I guess they obviously could, for example,

00:51:49   they could release new Mac Pros

00:51:50   that are capable of driving this thing

00:51:52   and just say, "Just use your old crappy Dell monitor,"

00:51:55   or whatever.

00:51:56   - Exactly.

00:51:56   So that's, you know, probably sometime

00:51:59   in the next six months,

00:52:00   we're probably getting all of these things.

00:52:01   If I would hazard a guess, I'm guessing,

00:52:04   well, the Mac Pro is a bit of a problem

00:52:05   because the, well, of course,

00:52:08   it's always a bit of a problem,

00:52:08   but the type of Xeon it would use,

00:52:12   if it's being released this fall,

00:52:13   would most likely be the Broadwell Xeon.

00:52:16   The Skylake Xeon is coming out sometime next year,

00:52:19   and it's a really big improvement for the Xeon platform.

00:52:22   There's a lot of other stuff that goes along with that.

00:52:25   So I'm kind of afraid that Apple's gonna wait for that.

00:52:28   - And if they do, or if they don't wait,

00:52:31   will Syracuse await? (laughs)

00:52:33   - Well, he's always gonna wait. (laughs)

00:52:35   - Syracuse's back is to the wall.

00:52:37   People who don't listen to ATP,

00:52:38   And I bet the overlap here is like 90%.

00:52:40   - Yeah, probably.

00:52:41   - But the macOS Sierra doesn't officially run on John's.

00:52:46   He's using like a 1998 Bondi Blue Power Mac.

00:52:52   Doesn't run on it.

00:52:57   It's finally been dropped.

00:52:59   So now he's in the conundrum

00:53:01   where he's been waiting for all of these years,

00:53:03   20, 22 years or something like that to upgrade his Mac Pro.

00:53:06   and now he either has to,

00:53:10   or he won't be able to run macOS Sierra on it.

00:53:12   - Or there's one of those hack bootloader programs

00:53:15   that will modify Sierra to actually work,

00:53:17   'cause it actually does work,

00:53:19   they just don't feel like supporting it, basically.

00:53:21   So you actually could install it

00:53:23   through this unofficially supported hack.

00:53:26   So what do you think is more offensive to Syracuse?

00:53:29   - No, I think that-- - Running the hack?

00:53:31   Or not running it, or buying a new Mac Pro?

00:53:33   - That he knows is gonna be obsolete, it's in.

00:53:35   - Right, like I, this is a really tough position

00:53:38   to put him in.

00:53:39   - Boy, it's almost like a perfect,

00:53:41   a perfect-- - And it has

00:53:43   a new file system. (laughs)

00:53:44   - Yeah. (laughs)

00:53:46   (bell dings)

00:53:47   (laughing)

00:53:49   And it's the only way that he could use it.

00:53:51   - Yeah, exactly. - No, no, no,

00:53:52   they are gonna come out with a file system

00:53:54   for El Capitan, right?

00:53:56   I think so.

00:53:57   - No. - No?

00:53:58   - No. (laughs)

00:53:59   Why would they do? (laughs)

00:54:01   - I thought that they were going to,

00:54:03   that you could like plug a disk into LCAP, but maybe by the time the file system actually

00:54:07   ships that Sierra will be the old release. I don't know.

00:54:11   I don't know. It's very funny though.

00:54:14   I mean this really was like a masterful trolling of Syracuse this year.

00:54:18   It really was. It really is. But it's his own fault for not buying. He should have bought

00:54:22   the Mac Pro as we know it as soon as it came out.

00:54:24   Yeah, and I even offered to sell him, when I sold my 2010 era one, which does run this,

00:54:29   which is decently better than his 2008,

00:54:32   I offered to sell to him for a really good price,

00:54:34   like well below market, just 'cause I wanted to get rid of it,

00:54:36   I don't wanna deal with selling it.

00:54:37   And he was like, "No, I'll just wait.

00:54:40   "I'm happy with my 2008.

00:54:41   "Okay."

00:54:42   - The best time to buy a computer is when it's brand new.

00:54:46   And maybe if you're really smart,

00:54:48   buy it just a little after it comes out

00:54:51   so you can read initial reviews

00:54:52   and just make sure there's not something really stinky about.

00:54:55   - Right, buy it like a month or two in.

00:54:57   Yeah, like six weeks in.

00:54:59   Because like Apple doesn't, they don't lower their prices over time as the computers get older.

00:55:02   Like you're paying the same price and getting the same computer on day number 900 of the Mac Pro as you were paying on day zero.

00:55:09   Like who's, I just can't even imagine who's buying a Mac Pro right now.

00:55:14   I mean if you have to, yeah, I just imagine that almost everyone they're selling right now is through gritted teeth.

00:55:19   Like somebody who's old one broke or they've made a new hire, you know, we've got a new guy on the staff,

00:55:26   "we gotta get him a Mac Pro," or something like that.

00:55:31   - Right, I mean, it's like if you drop your iPhone

00:55:33   on a toilet in like August.

00:55:35   - Yes, exactly. - You're like, "Damn it."

00:55:37   But like, you know, that makes people mad.

00:55:39   Like, this is yet another reason why Apple needs

00:55:42   to really look at this and see if they could do this better

00:55:44   and release things more often, because like,

00:55:46   right now, if you buy any Mac Pro, and even, you know,

00:55:50   yeah, not a lot of people buy the Mac Pro,

00:55:52   but you know what a lot of people buy?

00:55:53   The MacBook Pro.

00:55:55   and that is also really outdated.

00:55:57   And to have people knowing that these things

00:56:01   are old and outdated, and I think a lot of people,

00:56:03   I mean not every buyer knows that,

00:56:05   but I think a lot of buyers do,

00:56:07   and they're gonna go a whole other summer now

00:56:08   of all these back to school sales,

00:56:10   or kids going to college,

00:56:12   buying a whole bunch of MacBook Pros again,

00:56:14   like that everyone kinda knows

00:56:15   are basically like three year old hardware.

00:56:18   Man, this is making people unhappy

00:56:21   about buying Apple products.

00:56:24   That is not where you want them to be.

00:56:26   - Yeah, because I think Apple's mojo is the fact

00:56:30   that people love buying Apple products.

00:56:33   - Exactly.

00:56:35   - It's like everybody, it's like your Christmas,

00:56:37   people who don't even do unboxing videos

00:56:41   save the unboxing video.

00:56:43   - Yeah, and when I got my cylinder Mac Pro

00:56:47   like a couple months after it was released,

00:56:49   I don't know, like February or something of that year,

00:56:50   when I got that, I was really happy with it.

00:56:52   It was amazing.

00:56:53   But if I went to buy one today,

00:56:56   now that I've already replaced it with an iMac

00:56:59   almost two years ago,

00:57:00   like it's still the same computer today that I bought,

00:57:06   that I ordered in December 2013.

00:57:09   - It's really kind of strange, it really is.

00:57:13   And you know, it's like I think I was saying before,

00:57:15   it's like you can even go down the line

00:57:16   and just show that the,

00:57:18   even within the MacBook family,

00:57:21   the MacBook One has gotten a year over year update,

00:57:25   less overdue, like the more consumer friendly device

00:57:30   is updated more regularly than the professional one.

00:57:33   Even within the MacBook lineup,

00:57:35   the Pro end seems to get short shrift.

00:57:38   - Yeah, and that's what I'm saying.

00:57:40   Like whatever Apple decides, you know what,

00:57:43   we need to hold back and wait for X, that needs tweaking.

00:57:46   And if for a long time it was just like,

00:57:48   oh, we'll just ship whenever Intel gives new laptop CPUs.

00:57:51   But in recent years Intel has had a lot of delays

00:57:54   and has gotten less reliable.

00:57:55   So maybe decouple that or definitely don't skip any

00:58:00   or figure out ways to give more frequent updates.

00:58:04   Like last year when they brought the Force Touch trackpad

00:58:08   to the 15 inch MacBook Pro,

00:58:10   so it has technically been updated

00:58:13   but notice that almost nothing else about it changed.

00:58:16   From what I heard the reason why is that

00:58:18   the GPU it was using was so old that Nvidia stopped making it,

00:58:22   or ATI, whichever one it was.

00:58:24   Like, they just stopped making the part.

00:58:26   And Apple was still selling these brand new,

00:58:28   in the 15-inch MacBook Pro, their highest end laptop.

00:58:31   Oh, man.

00:58:32   And if that's true, I mean, that's really embarrassing.

00:58:35   Hey, we just crossed the one-hour marker

00:58:37   a little bit ago.

00:58:37   So I think we're on pace for a two-hour show.

00:58:39   We'll see.

00:58:39   Yeah, OK.

00:58:40   You haven't seen the length of my notes for the headphone

00:58:42   jack.

00:58:43   I made an outline.

00:58:44   You're in trouble.

00:58:45   Let me take another break here and thank

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00:59:18   You don't have enough hours left in your life probably

00:59:20   to listen to everything that Audible has.

00:59:22   I used to think, here's one thing about Audible

00:59:25   that is eye-opening to me,

00:59:27   is that I always thought of them as the audiobooks company,

00:59:31   and they do have thousands and thousands of audiobooks.

00:59:35   But the other types of content they have,

00:59:38   like I just said, the original audio shows,

00:59:41   news, the comedy, and stuff like that,

00:59:44   tons of stuff like that too. So even if you're not into audio books like hearing a novel read out

00:59:51   loud or something like that, there is tons of stuff there if you like spoken word content. And

00:59:55   if you don't like spoken word content, I don't understand how you are hearing me talk to you

01:00:00   right now. So go there, check them out. You can get a 30-day free trial and you just sign up at

01:00:08   at audible.com/talkshow. No "the," just /talkshow. Go there. Thanks to

01:00:13   Audible for sponsoring our show. Go there and fill up your phone with

01:00:17   audio content. All right, let's talk about the headphone jack.

01:00:23   You sure? You wanted a short show. Let's see. I'm fascinated by this. I wanted to write

01:00:29   about this a few months ago, and it was one of those things where I'd collected

01:00:33   a lot of notes and had some thoughts on it, and just now I think it's one of

01:00:36   those ones where having a podcast sort of hurts my column at Daring Fireball

01:00:41   because it was like I talked about it with a couple people on this show over a

01:00:44   week or two and then it's like I felt like I got it out of my system so I

01:00:47   never wrote about it. See this is this is where you're in trouble now because you

01:00:51   know a few months ago when the rumor first started started going around we

01:00:53   all talked about it like I talked about on ATP. I remember. And so I probably

01:00:57   won't get a chance to talk about it on ATP this week so therefore I'm gonna dump

01:01:01   this all on you. Okay. Because it's interesting like you know so this kind

01:01:06   flamed up again this week because Neelai Patel at The Verge wrote the big thing

01:01:09   about it. Well, it goes back one step though. It started with Daisuke Wakabayashi,

01:01:14   published his story in the Wall Street Journal Monday, more or less confirming

01:01:18   all the stuff that we've heard. That the next iPhone is going to largely look

01:01:24   like the iPhone 6 and 6s, and yeah removal of the headphone port would be

01:01:32   one of the main features. I will happily rescind that and change it to changes.

01:01:41   I forget. But just a whole bunch of things that we've heard rumored for a while coming out of

01:01:48   the supply chain. And Wakabayashi had sources familiar with the matter who couldn't speak for

01:01:54   whatever reason confirm them. Which is worthwhile. There's nothing in it that I hadn't seen before.

01:02:01   But it's always worthwhile when somebody with the stature

01:02:05   and the track record of the Wall Street Journal confirms it.

01:02:09   But then after that, that's when Neelai published,

01:02:12   what was the headline?

01:02:15   - I forget, it was something like,

01:02:17   Six Reasons Why You Don't Want the Removal of Headphone Jack

01:02:19   and he even said in his Twitter link to it--

01:02:22   - Taking the headphone jack off iPhones

01:02:24   is user hostile and stupid.

01:02:26   - And he even kind of like disclaimed

01:02:30   in his Twitter link to it, like,

01:02:31   "I was really angry when I wrote this,

01:02:33   "so it probably sucks."

01:02:33   Like, it was something like that.

01:02:35   So, you know, I give him the benefit of the doubt on that.

01:02:36   And a lot of his points I thought were valid and good.

01:02:41   Not all, I didn't agree with all of it,

01:02:43   but I think I agree with most of it.

01:02:45   And then you wrote this rebuttal piece,

01:02:48   mostly rebutting him, I think,

01:02:50   that was basically like, you know,

01:02:53   it's progress, it's going to happen, why not now?

01:02:55   Is that a fair summary?

01:02:56   - Yes, it's going to happen eventually.

01:03:00   Maybe, why not now?

01:03:01   If there's one thing that seems like people misread in it,

01:03:04   I think Steve Strese had a piece on Medium,

01:03:07   and his assumption is that I was arguing

01:03:10   that this is a good change for iPhone users.

01:03:14   And I never said that.

01:03:14   If you read my thing, I never said that,

01:03:16   because I don't know.

01:03:17   I have no idea what they're replacing it with.

01:03:19   I don't know, and Wakabayashi didn't either.

01:03:22   I think people assume that the default earbuds

01:03:26   will be lightning.

01:03:28   if they're getting rid of the audio port, what do we call it?

01:03:31   What is it called?

01:03:31   Standard headphone jack?

01:03:32   It doesn't even have a name.

01:03:33   - It has a few names.

01:03:34   Technically, it's one of the family of phone plugs,

01:03:37   and it is specifically a 3.5 millimeter TRRS jack.

01:03:42   - Well, the TRRS jack.

01:03:44   (laughing)

01:03:45   - You're welcome.

01:03:46   - I think most people assume that the standard earpods

01:03:48   are gonna be lightning,

01:03:49   because then they don't have to have batteries,

01:03:51   and there's no latency.

01:03:54   There's all sorts of good reasons why you'd still want

01:03:56   a wired set of earphones, earpods,

01:04:00   whatever you wanna call 'em.

01:04:02   Could be that the defaults will be Bluetooth

01:04:04   or some other new proprietary wireless thing.

01:04:07   - Bluetooth seems like an upsell.

01:04:09   - That does to me too.

01:04:10   - Also, if they were gonna have a proprietary wireless thing,

01:04:13   that would've been using the Apple Watch,

01:04:15   'cause Bluetooth sucks for the Apple Watch.

01:04:17   So they definitely would've used it there if they had one.

01:04:19   - Well, maybe it wasn't ready yet.

01:04:22   It's possible. - Maybe it's up there

01:04:23   with the Skylake Xeons.

01:04:24   - Right, I don't know, but.

01:04:26   Who knows? But I just don't know. I don't know what the story is. And so my argument is more,

01:04:30   I think that the removal of this port is inevitable. Will it be there in 50 years? I just,

01:04:38   no way. So what is the time frame? Well, it was there 50 years ago. That is true. And I think it's,

01:04:44   you know, it has had a remarkable, you know, run. But I feel like the time is up. So just for the

01:04:51   sake of argument here, I looked this up before the show. There's a Wikipedia article on the phone

01:04:54   plug. The large, like the, have you ever seen like a stereo from like the 70s or

01:05:00   if you're a high-end headphone nerd and you've seen like the quarter inch

01:05:03   version of the plug, it's basically, it looks just like the regular one but it's

01:05:05   about twice as big in both dimensions. Yes. That version was invented in 1878 for

01:05:12   use in phone exchanges and the stereo version that we mostly know

01:05:18   today that has the two rings halfway through so it has like

01:05:22   three total areas of plug and it's smaller,

01:05:25   the 3.5 millimeter one.

01:05:26   That one appeared roughly in 1964

01:05:30   and became popular with the original Sony Walkman in 1979.

01:05:34   - So we're talking about at least a good 40 years.

01:05:38   - Yeah, yeah.

01:05:39   So this thing is old and you know,

01:05:43   the reason it has lasted so long is because it is universal,

01:05:49   it is very simple electrically,

01:05:51   It's very, very simple.

01:05:52   There's no smarts to it.

01:05:54   It's just like, it's just pure analog signal

01:05:55   going over these, you know, two or three wires

01:05:58   inside the cable, or in the case of the headphone remote,

01:06:00   four wires inside the cable.

01:06:02   Very, very simple, electrically.

01:06:04   They're very reliable, for the most part.

01:06:07   Like, the port can get gunked up with dust,

01:06:09   but so can the lightning port, so can any port.

01:06:12   So, you know, compared to other ports,

01:06:14   it's not particularly bad for reliability.

01:06:16   It's very, very durable, and it's very, very cheap.

01:06:20   So you have this combination of like standard,

01:06:22   universal, cheap, durable, simple,

01:06:24   like it's really great for all these things.

01:06:27   And by the way, if you think it's too thick,

01:06:29   there is also a thinner version.

01:06:31   So this version is 3.5 millimeter,

01:06:33   there's a 2.5 millimeter version that used to be

01:06:36   on like some like answering machines

01:06:38   and then like more recently it's often used

01:06:40   like on the ear end of removable headphone cables

01:06:44   where like you'll have like the end that plugs

01:06:46   into the phone and the other end plugs into like

01:06:47   your ear cup, sometimes that end will be the skinnier one,

01:06:50   and you might have a couple of those.

01:06:51   - I've seen that.

01:06:52   I used to own something that had that.

01:06:54   I don't know what the hell it was though.

01:06:56   - Yeah, it doesn't matter.

01:06:57   - Well, the other thing about making the devices thinner

01:06:59   with the standard headphone jack,

01:07:01   I keep pointing this out over and over again,

01:07:02   but the iPod touch still has it,

01:07:04   and the iPod touch is significantly thinner

01:07:06   than the current iPhones.

01:07:08   - And the Nano too, I believe it's also thinner,

01:07:10   and it also has it.

01:07:10   So like, the reason to remove it now

01:07:14   isn't a thickness barrier,

01:07:16   because there are,

01:07:18   we see Apple makes thinner devices with this.

01:07:20   So that's not the reason.

01:07:22   I would also say, so like in my category of reasons

01:07:25   it doesn't have to go yet, assuming it has to go

01:07:28   at some time, one of the reasons this might not be the time

01:07:31   is like what are we gaining by removing it,

01:07:33   'cause there's cost removing it.

01:07:34   So I think one thing we're gaining would be

01:07:37   a lot of people assume space for the battery, right?

01:07:40   Except that if you look at the tear downs

01:07:42   of where this port is on the phone,

01:07:45   down there at the bottom next to the lightning assembly

01:07:47   and everything and then on the other side you have the speaker next to it, you have

01:07:49   the microphone and everything. Down there, like that's not where you need space for

01:07:53   the battery. I mean, they could go to some kind of crazy system like the MacBook One

01:07:57   where they have like different shapes of battery things all over the place, but this is a phone

01:08:02   and they have to replace a lot of phone batteries under warranty and people replace them aftermarket

01:08:06   and you know when they're old and in different countries and everything. You need the battery

01:08:10   to be easily serviceable, replaceable and cheap. And so keeping it as one regular rectangle

01:08:16   of a battery is way more practical for them.

01:08:19   And also, the total amount of space you would save,

01:08:23   or a space you would gain by invading that little

01:08:27   rectangle of area at the bottom of the phone,

01:08:29   where the headphone jack is,

01:08:30   you can just make the battery some minuscule amount thicker

01:08:33   and keep it in the same footprint,

01:08:35   and it would have that same volume increase

01:08:37   and be way cheaper and easier to deal with.

01:08:38   So, battery life is probably not the reason either,

01:08:44   because of just like where it is in the phone

01:08:46   and what else is down there.

01:08:47   Like I don't really see a massive internal redesign

01:08:51   of the phone layout inside where that space

01:08:54   would suddenly become space you could expand

01:08:56   the battery into.

01:08:57   It might, but I think it's unlikely.

01:08:59   - Well, I think it goes far enough in that

01:09:01   the space is significant, but I don't think it's huge.

01:09:03   I think the biggest space-saving argument

01:09:06   or three-dimensional, you know, this thing is just too big

01:09:09   or too thick or too long argument,

01:09:11   probably have to do with next year's new iPhone, which I believe, and as you know,

01:09:16   I mentioned it on the show and I know there's rumors about it too, that if it

01:09:20   goes to more of an edge-to-edge display, which would be like the top and bottom

01:09:24   of the display go to the edge as close as the sides do now, then I think it's a

01:09:29   problem because I don't, I think it's a lot harder to have the, the jack

01:09:33   would therefore have to be underneath the display. Yeah, so remove it then. Well,

01:09:38   Well, that's what I'm saying.

01:09:39   It is a good point.

01:09:40   Why now?

01:09:41   That doesn't count for why now, unless they just possibly

01:09:46   just want to eat the shit sandwich now of putting up

01:09:50   with people's complaints about this a year in advance

01:09:53   of unveiling that phone so that people don't complain about it

01:09:56   when the amazing new industrial design is unveiled.

01:09:59   And that might be the reason, but that's a crappy reason.

01:10:02   I don't think that's the reason, though.

01:10:03   I do think that there is a reason.

01:10:05   All I'm saying-- and this is the secondary thrust

01:10:07   my argument, which is, "Well, we don't know. How about we just wait and find out what the story is before we complain?"

01:10:14   Like, it's to me that it's too soon to say this is user hostile and stupid.

01:10:20   Right, although it's also too late to change it.

01:10:22   Right. But we don't have proof that it's not user hostile and stupid. It might be.

01:10:25   I guess that, if there's anything that I wish I would have emphasized more, it's like, "Okay, maybe it is."

01:10:30   But we certainly don't know that yet, and it may well not be.

01:10:33   I'm wondering and you know you definitely know more about headphones than I do is I'm wondering about

01:10:38   If it switches to lightning something digital

01:10:43   How much better could the input be not just the output right right now you think of a headphones

01:10:49   Output you put them in and you listen right but like the whole input stuff like voice

01:10:55   You know through the microphone and the little clicks like when you you know what there's like play/pause and fast forward and stuff like that

01:11:01   I mean, you know, you write a podcast player.

01:11:04   That stuff is all, that's just like a serious hack.

01:11:07   - It is a hack, but it also works.

01:11:10   - Yeah, but maybe-- - And it is,

01:11:11   the main thing that you can say from that point of view

01:11:13   is that it's limiting.

01:11:14   Like, for example, you can only have mono input right now,

01:11:17   'cause there's only one pin for the microphone return.

01:11:20   So like, you can only have one channel.

01:11:22   So if you wanted to have like a nicer microphone setup,

01:11:25   maybe if you wanted to podcast or record something

01:11:27   from your device, you can, if you're using that port,

01:11:30   you can only record in mono.

01:11:32   And lightning adapter, you know,

01:11:33   lightning devices can add much more than that.

01:11:36   They can have all sorts of inputs and outputs,

01:11:38   and especially if they have custom apps to deal with them,

01:11:41   then they can do a lot, and most of them do.

01:11:43   But that also isn't a good argument,

01:11:44   because like, well, we already have that now.

01:11:46   Like, you don't have to remove the headphone port

01:11:49   to have lightning audio.

01:11:50   We have lightning audio already,

01:11:52   and we also have the headphone port.

01:11:53   - Yeah, but, uh. (laughs)

01:11:58   - You know?

01:11:59   And there's also, by the way, while we're on this topic,

01:12:01   there's a huge argument going around

01:12:05   with the pro side of this,

01:12:06   that this could enable better audio quality.

01:12:10   And let me tell you, as an audio file,

01:12:12   that is complete garbage.

01:12:14   First of all, you have the same problem of like,

01:12:18   well, if lightning headphones can be better,

01:12:20   great, we can have that now.

01:12:22   We don't need to remove the headphone jack

01:12:23   to make that happen.

01:12:24   And the way iOS handles audio devices,

01:12:27   if any other device is connected via Lightning or USB

01:12:30   or whatever, that device just takes over

01:12:33   from the built-in microphone and speakers

01:12:35   and headphones and everything else.

01:12:36   So you don't even have to,

01:12:38   the software doesn't have to do anything

01:12:39   to take advantage of Lightning connected audio devices.

01:12:41   It just works.

01:12:42   So there's basically no downside from that point of view

01:12:45   to keeping the headphone jack around.

01:12:48   And the idea that some people have

01:12:50   that a Lightning connected headphone

01:12:52   would have better audio quality

01:12:53   because you could have a really nice DAC and amp

01:12:56   that DAC is the DAC digital audio converter

01:12:59   that converts, literally converts the digital signal

01:13:01   to the sound that you hear, and then of course

01:13:03   the amp amplifies that to different volumes for you.

01:13:06   - At some point it has to go to analog.

01:13:08   There's no-- - Right.

01:13:09   - 'Cause it's actually going to put sound waves

01:13:12   into your ear.

01:13:13   - Right, and so I wouldn't worry about the DRM angle

01:13:15   like Nilay did, because it would be trivial to,

01:13:18   if you're actually relying on analog output

01:13:21   to capture, to re-record, to pirate something,

01:13:24   it would be trivial to just take apart the headphones

01:13:26   and connect a couple things to the wires

01:13:28   that go to the drivers and that'd be it.

01:13:30   So that part of the DRM is not a concern.

01:13:32   Licensing the connector is, but I'll get to that.

01:13:36   But the idea that you get better audio quality

01:13:38   out of having separate premium headphones

01:13:42   that have premium DACs and amps in them, that is possible.

01:13:46   However, it's extremely unlikely in reality.

01:13:49   Because in reality, it is very difficult

01:13:52   to distinguish differences between DACs and amps,

01:13:56   especially once you've crossed a minimum threshold.

01:13:58   And people who make this argument are often talking

01:14:01   about how DACs and computers are always crappy.

01:14:03   And the fact is they were really crappy in the 90s.

01:14:07   That's when they were crappy.

01:14:08   And most built-in headphone jacks and sound cards

01:14:12   that are in computers and our phones and tablets today

01:14:16   are pretty decent, they're fine.

01:14:17   And the limiting factor to how good they can sound

01:14:21   is not the quality of the DAC and the amp in the phone.

01:14:24   it's almost always limiting factor is the headphones

01:14:28   that you're using and the environment you're listening in.

01:14:30   Like that's it, like when you're listening on your phone,

01:14:33   like you might be commuting, you might be outside,

01:14:35   you might be in a loud shared office,

01:14:37   and you're probably listening on headphones

01:14:38   that are like, you know, at best decent,

01:14:42   probably not amazing, probably not like the big,

01:14:44   full-sized, open-backed ones that audio files

01:14:47   like to listen critically with.

01:14:49   And those headphones you're listening on,

01:14:52   Like there's so much room for improvement in the sound,

01:14:55   just by better headphones, better drivers,

01:14:57   better tuning of the sound to make it, you know,

01:15:00   less trying to imitate beats badly

01:15:02   and more just trying to sound good.

01:15:04   You know, like that is where improvement comes from.

01:15:07   It does not come from in the portable realm,

01:15:09   but does not usually come from different DACs and amps.

01:15:12   DACs and amps are just a really nice way

01:15:14   to sell overpriced stuff to people who want better sound,

01:15:17   but never consider the fact

01:15:19   that they should just buy better headphones.

01:15:21   I saw somebody today and I don't remember who.

01:15:24   No, that's okay, this is good.

01:15:25   Somebody today was speculating that maybe they will switch,

01:15:30   they'll do like a noise canceling thing

01:15:32   and they'll have the stuff on the phone doing it.

01:15:36   Like right now when you buy noise canceling headphones,

01:15:38   you have to put batteries in the actual headphones,

01:15:40   like when you buy them from Bose or whatever,

01:15:41   'cause it takes power to actually do the noise canceling.

01:15:46   So the phone could do it.

01:15:48   But I find that unlikely.

01:15:51   Like it sounds good when you think, oh, noise canceling.

01:15:53   Some people like noise canceling headphones.

01:15:55   And in certain scenarios, like being on an airplane,

01:15:57   it really is very useful.

01:16:00   But that sounds very unlikely to me

01:16:02   that anybody is gonna find it a good idea

01:16:05   to have headphones that draw power from your iPhone.

01:16:08   Like when you're using the headphones,

01:16:11   you'll get worse battery life.

01:16:12   Like that doesn't sound like something

01:16:15   people are gonna sign up for.

01:16:16   like there is a like one of Eli's things was...

01:16:21   Yeah, I mean in reality like it isn't that much power but it's still you know it's

01:16:26   still not trivial but the reality is like the high-end headphones like noise

01:16:31   cancelling and everything those are all moving to Bluetooth now and I believe I

01:16:35   have things to say about Bluetooth as well but I think like a whole other side of this

01:16:39   argument is like oh well lightning headphones would be great but you know

01:16:42   what lightning headphones are very expensive like their premium price right

01:16:45   Right now there's very few of them,

01:16:47   and the few of these are very expensive.

01:16:48   They will always be more expensive than other headphones

01:16:51   because they're gonna have the Apple licensing,

01:16:53   the MFI stuff, and then they're gonna wanna be sold

01:16:56   on Apple retail stores.

01:16:57   They're gonna have these, you know,

01:16:58   I'm guessing most lighting headphones

01:17:00   are gonna be above $300 in all likelihood.

01:17:03   And so you're gonna have this stuff,

01:17:05   but the problem is if you look at the headphone market,

01:17:07   everyone's kinda freaking out

01:17:08   and trying to rush out Bluetooth models

01:17:10   in the last couple years

01:17:10   because everybody wants noise canceling and Bluetooth

01:17:15   the high end. Like if you're looking at high end headphones like headphones that cost more

01:17:19   than 200 bucks that are for iPhones or for portable use like everybody wants Bluetooth

01:17:26   and noise canceling. And so that is, you know, in many ways that's an argument for the headphone

01:17:33   jack removal because you can say well, you know, if everyone's going Bluetooth then,

01:17:37   you know, we don't need this, right? And this is why I think like, you know, Bluetooth is

01:17:44   In many ways it is worse than wired headphones.

01:17:48   In many ways it's a lot worse than wired headphones.

01:17:50   Like the sound quality is usually pretty rough.

01:17:54   By the way, the reason the sound quality is pretty rough

01:17:56   is not usually because of lossy compression over Bluetooth.

01:18:00   It is usually because the headphones

01:18:03   are kind of mediocre or garbagey.

01:18:06   And they have, guess what?

01:18:08   They have a built in DAC and amp

01:18:10   in every Bluetooth headphone because it has to,

01:18:12   because it is not powered by your phone,

01:18:14   and the signal's transmitted digitally from your phone.

01:18:16   So we already have a world full of aftermarket

01:18:19   DACs and amps in headphones, and they're all garbage.

01:18:24   And the most sophisticated things they do

01:18:27   are they tweak the audio, they tweak the EQ curve

01:18:31   of the audio coming out of the headphones

01:18:32   to make up for crappy headphone drivers.

01:18:35   So if you have headphones that say,

01:18:37   suppose they have really weak bass,

01:18:40   and they know that everybody wants strong bass,

01:18:43   they'll just use the DAC amp chip in the Bluetooth headphone.

01:18:48   They will tweak the sound before they send it out

01:18:50   to the driver to just artificially boost the bass.

01:18:54   And these are like cheap components doing things

01:18:57   in a very basic way.

01:19:01   And it sounds pretty rough.

01:19:02   And you can hear this yourself.

01:19:04   If you have like noise canceling headphones,

01:19:06   like any Bose headphones that also can operate

01:19:09   with a wire passively, if you can turn off

01:19:12   the noise canceling and use them with the wire,

01:19:15   turn it off and listen to how much worse everything sounds.

01:19:18   That, what you're hearing when it's off,

01:19:20   that's what the headphones in an app actually sound like.

01:19:23   And when you turn it on, they're applying this big EQ curve

01:19:26   to try to boost it and make it sound better artificially,

01:19:28   but it's never quite right,

01:19:30   it never sounds great or natural.

01:19:33   That's the world we're going towards.

01:19:34   If we're going towards more Bluetooth, more lightning,

01:19:39   headphones that are not just passive analog devices

01:19:41   but actually have active circuitry in them,

01:19:43   it's not going towards a world of like amazing dacs and amps

01:19:46   in portable headphones,

01:19:47   it's going towards a world of mediocre headphones

01:19:49   that have their flaws papered over

01:19:51   by kind of these DSP hacks.

01:19:55   - So what are they gonna do?

01:19:55   I feel like if they switch,

01:19:57   if Apple's story is, okay, buy this new iPhone

01:20:00   and when you open it up,

01:20:01   you get a pair of our new Bluetooth AirPods

01:20:05   or whatever they're gonna call them.

01:20:07   somebody had a there was like a trademark filing on the word AirPod oh

01:20:10   there's no way that's that's in the package you know I'm thinking in the

01:20:14   package you get like you get the the cable adapted version of them just like

01:20:18   today and then they will tell you with a lightning port in some form you know

01:20:23   whether it's like a dongle and then head no headphones there's no way there's

01:20:27   probably not go no way probably they'll definitely sell you one but they might

01:20:31   put one in the box I don't know no probably not well not either way they

01:20:35   They might give you a dongle so that you can use your existing headphones if you'd prefer

01:20:40   not to, but the headphones they give in the box have to just plug right in.

01:20:43   And that means it has to be plugged in.

01:20:44   Yeah, that's probably right.

01:20:45   Yeah.

01:20:46   So I'm guessing that they will gladly sell you a set of AirPods, if that's going to be

01:20:51   a real product name, they will sell you a Bluetooth version of those headphones for,

01:20:54   I don't know, $150, $100 maybe.

01:20:57   That's going to be an add-on.

01:20:58   That's not going to be in the box.

01:21:00   Because let's not forget that Apple's really good at making you spend a little bit more

01:21:04   money at the point of sale and get all those attachment sales like they've

01:21:07   mastered this now I think both of these both of these ideas qualify as of course

01:21:12   that's what they're going to do their Apple of course Apple isn't gonna make

01:21:15   you use a dongle their Apple there's no way they're gonna make you use a dongle

01:21:19   and of course of course the air wireless ones are gonna be a expensive upsell

01:21:25   because they're out exactly so that's sold and and the idea of like moving

01:21:31   towards the world of Bluetooth,

01:21:33   'cause let's be honest, it's gonna be mostly Bluetooth.

01:21:35   It's not gonna be mostly lightning headphones,

01:21:37   except for the ones that come in the box.

01:21:38   Those will be very popular,

01:21:39   but aftermarket headphones, I think,

01:21:42   are gonna be way more often Bluetooth than not

01:21:45   in the near future.

01:21:47   We're almost there now.

01:21:49   - If the story is go with Bluetooth,

01:21:53   it solves some of the problems

01:21:55   in terms of why would they get rid of the headphone jack?

01:21:58   Well, we got rid of it because the future's wireless.

01:22:01   And it also solves the how do I listen to music

01:22:04   while I charge my phone problem, which is a real problem.

01:22:08   I mean, and I--

01:22:09   - The solution is you discharge the other device

01:22:11   that you're wearing on your head at the same time.

01:22:13   - Well, how would you do that?

01:22:15   - No, you're right.

01:22:16   I mean, the solution is either they ship

01:22:17   and kind of pass through adapter,

01:22:19   which would be pretty clunky.

01:22:21   - Right.

01:22:22   - Or you just use Bluetooth.

01:22:24   And when you're using Bluetooth,

01:22:26   the iPhone is not concerned with the battery level

01:22:29   of your headphones.

01:22:30   problem.

01:22:31   Yeah, and it does seem it seems weird to me.

01:22:35   I have to admit, I mean, this is one of these things ever since the thing started.

01:22:38   I don't see how they're going to sell this.

01:22:41   And you know, what's the story going to be?

01:22:43   Because I totally acknowledge like I see Jonas doing it all the time where he's got like

01:22:47   an iPad at 3% and he's charging it while he's still listening to the YouTube stuff that

01:22:53   is on it while he plays the PlayStation.

01:22:56   I totally recognize that.

01:22:58   I know lots and lots of people, they do it on airplanes.

01:23:00   If you're lucky enough to fly on an airline that has USB or power adapters,

01:23:04   people charge their phone while they listen to music on the flight.

01:23:08   I know people do it at their desks.

01:23:09   People will charge their phone while they're listening to music on it.

01:23:13   I understand it and if there's just one lightning port,

01:23:19   and of course they're not going to put two lightning ports on the thing,

01:23:22   how do you listen with lightning headphones?

01:23:24   I mean, and that's the one idea that people were

01:23:27   kicking around when the rumors were that the new iPhones were going to have the

01:23:30   smart connector type thing on the back that maybe there'd be like a Apple watch

01:23:35   style magnetic charger but I don't know it doesn't seem right

01:23:40   especially like you know we already got like you know the as they as they ship

01:23:45   more and more other things that charge via lightning it's pretty clear like we

01:23:50   have now a world where lightning is like the universal Apple charger for all

01:23:55   Apple products except the watch annoyingly but everything else it's like

01:23:59   everything charges by lightning and I don't I don't see them throwing that

01:24:03   away so soon yeah like the pencil charges by it the

01:24:07   rumored that I forget if somebody just pulled this out of their ass or if it

01:24:12   was a real leak that the air pods would have like a little some kind of little

01:24:15   lightning thing that comes out or goes I don't know Bluetooth I'm lucky that I

01:24:20   don't I don't actually use earbuds or in-ear monitors that I just can't wear

01:24:24   them like pain-wise I can't wear them Bluetooth is you know it's annoying for

01:24:30   full-size headphones but it's not that bad Bluetooth for earbuds has a whole

01:24:35   bunch of challenges like well where do you put the battery and how do they

01:24:39   connect to each other and like there's all sorts of like weird hacks that

01:24:42   people have devised like well you have this like thing behind your neck or

01:24:45   something you know like there there's always some some kind of trick but it's

01:24:48   tricky to get Bluetooth into you into earbuds in a way that doesn't suck but

01:24:53   But overall, moving towards the world of Bluetooth headphones,

01:24:58   in so many ways, it's worse.

01:25:01   Number one problem is, of course, this

01:25:03   is one more thing you have to charge.

01:25:05   And if you're traveling, that might mean one more cable

01:25:07   to bring or something, and one more battery that could just

01:25:09   die at inopportune times.

01:25:11   And it's just kind of annoying.

01:25:13   They tend to be substantially more expensive

01:25:15   than other headphones of similar quality and attributes.

01:25:19   And Bluetooth is slightly unreliable.

01:25:22   Like it works most of the time,

01:25:24   but like every time I'm walking with my Bluetooth,

01:25:28   you know, little portable headphones

01:25:29   for walking and listening to podcasts,

01:25:31   every time I have like a little clip out of the audio

01:25:33   during some part of the walk,

01:25:34   if I like turn, if I like put my hand in the wrong spot,

01:25:37   like in my pocket or something,

01:25:39   like it like blocks the signal just enough

01:25:41   that oh, can't quite make it, I get a little static

01:25:43   and I gotta move my hand.

01:25:43   Like, and I've tested so many pairs of Bluetooth headphones,

01:25:46   they all have that problem.

01:25:47   It's always, some of them are better than others,

01:25:49   but they all have that problem to some degree.

01:25:51   And then there's the big problem of using

01:25:53   whatever headphones you come up with,

01:25:54   Bluetooth and lightning,

01:25:56   this would actually be substantially worse,

01:25:58   using the same headphones for multiple devices.

01:26:01   So suppose, like when I'm on a plane,

01:26:04   I'm always switching my headphones

01:26:06   to whatever device I'm using.

01:26:07   So if we're like, you know, taking off or whatever,

01:26:09   I'm just gonna try to sleep,

01:26:10   I'll have my iPhone in my pocket.

01:26:12   But then if I'm gonna like take out my laptop or an iPad

01:26:15   to try to get something done on the tray,

01:26:16   I'm gonna switch the headphones to that.

01:26:18   And a lot of people, they use the same headphones

01:26:22   between work and home at their work computer

01:26:24   or either work and iPod, like, excuse me,

01:26:27   iPhone, iPods are ancient.

01:26:29   So with Bluetooth, because of Bluetooth pairing

01:26:33   and everything, it's just such a pain

01:26:36   to share Bluetooth headphones between multiple devices

01:26:40   that in practice, nobody really does it.

01:26:42   You can't, some of them have a multiple pairing memory,

01:26:46   but they're always weird and hard to use.

01:26:48   Effectively, Bluetooth headphones, in practice,

01:26:51   they just kinda get locked to their primary device.

01:26:53   So nobody ever really changes it.

01:26:54   So that sucks.

01:26:56   Lightning would be even worse,

01:26:57   because yes, you could swap Lightning

01:26:59   between your iPhone and your iPad,

01:27:01   but then what are you gonna do when you go to your Mac?

01:27:03   Like, you can't plug your Lightning headphones

01:27:05   into your Mac.

01:27:06   - And that seems crazy.

01:27:08   I mean, I threw it out there as a spitball this week

01:27:11   that what if that's the reason the MacBook Pros

01:27:13   are being delayed, 'cause they're gonna put

01:27:15   lightning port on them just so that you can plug your headphones in but it

01:27:20   doesn't you know in every other way other than the idea that I would like to

01:27:24   be able to use the headphones the same headphones with my iPhone and my Mac

01:27:29   which is a very reasonable desire other than that it doesn't make any sense to

01:27:33   put a lightning port on a Mac but I'd you know I I don't know maybe I don't I

01:27:39   mean it doesn't seem I wouldn't I wouldn't faint if that was announced but

01:27:43   but it doesn't seem right.

01:27:45   Again, the only thing that really makes sense is Bluetooth,

01:27:48   but like you said, Bluetooth sharing between devices

01:27:50   is really weird, you gotta like,

01:27:52   I mean it's just like click, click, click,

01:27:54   or tap, tap, you know, settings, Bluetooth,

01:27:56   unpair, pair, type this code.

01:27:57   - Yeah, it's just, yeah, it's crappy.

01:28:00   And like, on the Android side,

01:28:02   they have this whole NFC system

01:28:03   to make pairing faster and easier.

01:28:06   It's possible Apple could add that to the next iPhone,

01:28:08   they already have the NFC antenna for Apple Pay.

01:28:10   I don't know much about NFC,

01:28:11   but it's probably the same antenna.

01:28:13   so it's possible they could do something like that,

01:28:14   but honestly, I don't see that.

01:28:17   - It's hard to beat the pairing process

01:28:21   of headphones as we know them.

01:28:23   - Yeah, you plug 'em in.

01:28:24   - And when it clicks, you're done.

01:28:26   - Yeah, and then if you wanna all of a sudden

01:28:29   have the headphones be playing output

01:28:31   from a different device, you know what you do?

01:28:32   You just unplug it and you plug it into the other device

01:28:35   and because they all have the same port.

01:28:37   Even the MacBook One has no other ports

01:28:40   except it has a headphone port.

01:28:41   - Right.

01:28:42   - Besides the USB-C, that's like the one other port

01:28:46   they deemed worthy of including on that computer

01:28:48   was a headphone port.

01:28:49   That just kind of shows how ubiquitous and important

01:28:53   and how compelling it is for this port to continue to exist.

01:28:56   Ultimately though, if this thing about the iPhone is true,

01:29:01   I think the world of lightning headphones

01:29:05   is generally a terrible idea

01:29:08   and is probably not gonna be very healthy.

01:29:11   - Yeah, but maybe-- - It's probably gonna be

01:29:12   mostly adapters to regular headphones or Bluetooth.

01:29:15   - Maybe though it'll kickstart it,

01:29:17   because it hasn't taken off to date, because why?

01:29:20   Why would you bother getting Lightning headphones

01:29:22   when you can get regular headphone jack headphones

01:29:25   that have the same audio quality and they're cheaper?

01:29:29   - Right, by the way, I should point out too,

01:29:30   I love this so much, the headphones that are pictured

01:29:33   in every article about Lightning headphones on the Verge

01:29:36   are the Audizay EL8 Titanium or Platinum or something.

01:29:41   They're $800 and they sound terrible.

01:29:43   (laughing)

01:29:45   Just putting that out there.

01:29:47   They look really cool.

01:29:48   We're gonna have lots of Lightning headphones

01:29:50   that look really cool and cost a lot of money,

01:29:53   but hopefully they'll sound better than the EL8.

01:29:55   Sorry, Audizay, there goes one sponsor

01:29:57   I'm never gonna get.

01:29:58   - Let's dispel the notion that maybe,

01:30:02   I've seen this kicked around,

01:30:03   and I think it is total nonsense, never gonna happen,

01:30:06   is that the solution, 'cause one of the problems

01:30:08   people have with Lightning,

01:30:10   The idea of using Lightning as the port for wired headphones

01:30:13   is that now you're stuck with an Apple proprietary solution

01:30:15   that has to get a licensing fee,

01:30:17   has to meet Apple's approval,

01:30:18   and therefore has to be more expensive

01:30:20   than it would be otherwise

01:30:21   because whatever the licensing fee is,

01:30:23   it's, if it's even a penny,

01:30:25   that means the thing's gonna cost a penny more.

01:30:27   And it's not gonna be a penny. (laughs)

01:30:30   - Right.

01:30:31   - Well, but-- - So the idea that people

01:30:32   are, I've seen kicking about is,

01:30:33   well, okay, well, if a headphone port is should be open

01:30:36   and everybody likes having an open standard,

01:30:39   why not USB-C?

01:30:41   Maybe that's the idea, is that the iPhone will switch to USB-C.

01:30:43   And guess what?

01:30:44   Headphone port aside, the iPhone is not going to switch to USB-C.

01:30:47   No, there's no chance of that.

01:30:49   No chance.

01:30:49   First of all, it's thicker than lightning.

01:30:51   Right.

01:30:51   Then that alone is a deal breaker.

01:30:53   And I'll put it in the show notes, hopefully.

01:30:55   But I got a good link.

01:30:56   Somebody did a really nice, precise diagram showing just

01:31:01   how much thicker it is.

01:31:02   And it actually would be pretty close to a gating factor

01:31:05   already on the iPhone 6.

01:31:07   and everybody knows Apple likes to make devices

01:31:10   thinner over time.

01:31:11   So like when you just eyeball them side by side,

01:31:13   you can say, oh yeah, they're like more or less the same.

01:31:15   But when you get right down to it

01:31:17   and start measuring the tenths of a millimeter,

01:31:21   it's too big of a difference.

01:31:23   - Yeah, definitely.

01:31:23   - And strategically, Apple is not gonna give up

01:31:26   their proprietary port that they've had

01:31:28   on the iPhone all along for a non-proprietary port

01:31:31   just so that they can have quote unquote open headphones.

01:31:35   yeah they i mean they couldn't possibly care less

01:31:37   uh... so yeah i mean

01:31:38   and andy the could be cost increase i mean

01:31:41   headphones already especially you know especially headphones that are targeted

01:31:46   at

01:31:46   smartphone use

01:31:48   and enough would be to cut the result in apple store like

01:31:51   the price of the headphone

01:31:53   has so little to do with the cost of its components in this market

01:31:57   uh... that that would not like

01:31:59   the cost of an apply certification

01:32:01   would probably not be the reason why the headphones cost a lot

01:32:04   These headphones cost a lot because they know they're selling into a premium market that's

01:32:08   based mostly on brand recognition and being sold in a high-end retail store.

01:32:12   That is why these headphones cost what they do.

01:32:16   Lightning headphones will be expensive, but it won't be because of the raw component

01:32:20   cost increase.

01:32:21   It'll be because of everything else about them.

01:32:23   So that's that.

01:32:24   Ultimately, though, I really do believe that we are heading towards a world of Apple pushing

01:32:31   you know, assuming this is true,

01:32:34   the real push is gonna be towards Bluetooth.

01:32:36   It's not gonna be towards the new cabling standard.

01:32:39   It's going to be Bluetooth because that,

01:32:41   again, we're already moving there so much

01:32:42   because the reality is, like, as a user,

01:32:45   like, look, I have a whole closet and a couple of drawers

01:32:48   full of way better headphones

01:32:51   than my little Bluetooth walking pair.

01:32:53   And yet, the little Bluetooth walking pair

01:32:55   is the one I am using most often with my iPhone

01:32:58   because even though it is worse in so many different ways,

01:33:03   it's more complicated, it's more expensive,

01:33:06   it needs to be charged, it's a little bit flaky

01:33:08   with that connection when I move my hand worse.

01:33:10   It sounds worse, like the sound quality is worse.

01:33:13   So much about it is worse.

01:33:15   However, it is more compelling.

01:33:18   And if you look at, like, you know,

01:33:20   worse but more compelling is like the theme

01:33:23   of modern computing advances.

01:33:24   Like so many things we have, you know,

01:33:27   we have given up reliability, simplicity, openness, cost,

01:33:32   so many good attributes, we've given those up

01:33:35   for a new thing that is just nicer in some way,

01:33:40   or I want it more, or it's just more compelling

01:33:43   for some reason, and that's how Bluetooth is,

01:33:45   that's why I don't know anybody who has started

01:33:50   using Bluetooth headphones and then ever wanted

01:33:52   to use wired headphones again.

01:33:54   - Well, it's like WiFi versus ethernet,

01:33:55   worse but more compelling.

01:33:57   Especially in the early years of WiFi.

01:34:00   - Yeah, I mean, WiFi now is pretty decent.

01:34:02   It was really not so in the early years, but again--

01:34:05   - And the speed difference was really, really dramatic

01:34:07   in the early years.

01:34:09   You didn't even need to have

01:34:10   a terrific internet connection,

01:34:11   and you could easily saturate your WiFi connection,

01:34:13   and the ethernet would be the other way around.

01:34:16   Like, you couldn't buy an internet connection

01:34:19   that would saturate even 100 base T.

01:34:22   - Yeah.

01:34:24   Bluetooth will, whatever argument we can have

01:34:26   about the headphone jack now,

01:34:28   it will be worse not having it.

01:34:31   It will suck not having it sometimes.

01:34:34   For some people, it'll be more than sometimes,

01:34:36   but in general, we are better off if we can keep it,

01:34:39   but in general, the market is moving

01:34:42   towards Bluetooth headphones,

01:34:44   and it is worse, and that's okay.

01:34:47   - What about latency?

01:34:48   That's one thing that bothers me,

01:34:49   and I'm one of those weirdos.

01:34:50   I realize, it's like I tell people this,

01:34:52   and they look at me, and they think I'm joking,

01:34:54   but I generally run with key clicks on.

01:34:57   Like when I'm typing on the iPhone keyboard,

01:34:59   I like to hear the clicks.

01:35:01   But I can't, I mean, it's like just the cognitive,

01:35:04   trying to make sense of the lag

01:35:07   when I have Bluetooth headphones on, it's like impossible.

01:35:10   I can't because-- - Well also, I mean,

01:35:11   it's hard to also ignore the fact

01:35:13   that some pretty common tasks for people to do on phones

01:35:16   include watching videos and playing games,

01:35:18   and both of those really suck

01:35:20   if there's noticeable audio latency.

01:35:22   Yeah, the video problem, they seem to have solved.

01:35:25   I don't notice any kind of lip sync problem.

01:35:28   That's really when you can tell with audio

01:35:30   is off if it looks like lips aren't moving in sync.

01:35:33   And they've done something where I think that they--

01:35:35   sort of like what Federighi was saying with the speed of light

01:35:42   calculations with the--

01:35:45   on stage last week, he said, where

01:35:46   they can tell just how close the watch is

01:35:49   to the MacBook that's being unlocked with that new feature.

01:35:52   They do something where the video is lags

01:35:57   by the exact same amount that the audio has to lag

01:35:59   because of Bluetooth and it's in sync.

01:36:01   But games are like the keyboard,

01:36:03   like all the beeps and boops and blops

01:36:06   are a half second behind.

01:36:07   - You know, but ultimately I think what's going to happen

01:36:10   is we're just gonna deal with that.

01:36:12   'Cause like, I mean, one thing is like,

01:36:13   I learned this when I tried to buy

01:36:14   wireless digital microphones for our recording this year

01:36:18   at WBC and that failed miserably.

01:36:20   If you're transmitting audio wirelessly,

01:36:23   if you're doing it in like a pure analog sense,

01:36:27   like the way old cordless mics worked

01:36:29   and a lot of old cordless phones worked,

01:36:31   analog sucks in a lot of ways.

01:36:32   You pick up static and everything,

01:36:33   but analog is basically latency free.

01:36:37   If you're doing it digitally,

01:36:38   which is what Bluetooth is doing,

01:36:40   transmitting audio digitally wirelessly

01:36:43   from some device in your hand to headphones on your head

01:36:46   and then having those headphones then convert that audio

01:36:48   digitally into the analog sounds,

01:36:51   just because of the nature of digital transmission,

01:36:53   there's like buffers in different places and everything,

01:36:55   there's always going to be some degree of latency.

01:36:58   And even the best latency,

01:37:00   like even the lowest we've managed to get it as an industry

01:37:04   is still noticeable for things like lip syncing lining up

01:37:07   and for things like that.

01:37:09   And that's like the best stuff.

01:37:10   Most of what you're getting in Bluetooth headphones

01:37:12   is not top notch equipment.

01:37:14   You know, it's not like the best of the best,

01:37:16   It's consumer grade cheapo stuff.

01:37:19   And so you're never gonna get digital transmission of sound

01:37:23   from a phone to your headphones that is latency free.

01:37:27   I don't think we know how to do that as a science.

01:37:30   So I think this is gonna be one of those things

01:37:32   where it's just always going to be worse

01:37:35   and we will just, as a society, we will just move to,

01:37:39   well, I guess we just won't play games with headphones on

01:37:42   or I guess we'll turn off our keyboard sounds or something.

01:37:46   Because again, the advantage is once you get used

01:37:48   to using Bluetooth headphones,

01:37:50   using a wire feels barbaric.

01:37:52   'Cause I know whenever I travel on a plane,

01:37:57   my Bluetooth ones suck on a plane

01:37:58   'cause they're small and they don't isolate.

01:38:00   So I usually bring a nicer pair of wired headphones

01:38:04   for planes and it just feels so weird

01:38:06   to have this wire going down my side into my pocket.

01:38:09   Once you're not used to that, getting it again is crazy.

01:38:13   Once I got used to having the track forward,

01:38:16   track back volume controls on the ear cup as buttons

01:38:20   on my Bluetooth pair, rather than having the clicker

01:38:23   and have, all right, click twice for four,

01:38:25   click three times for back, and try to do,

01:38:28   again, once you get used to the convenience of it,

01:38:29   it really is so much better that you tolerate

01:38:32   all the crap about Bluetooth.

01:38:34   - Yeah, I got them for running, for listening to podcasts,

01:38:38   and well, really just listening to podcasts while I run.

01:38:41   And the tethered, being tethered to the headphones

01:38:46   always bothered me.

01:38:47   It never once figured out.

01:38:49   I tried all sorts of stuff.

01:38:50   Holding the phone, an armband, putting it in a pocket.

01:38:55   I tried everything and no matter what,

01:38:57   that the wire gets in your way.

01:38:59   That's why I bought it.

01:39:00   But then I, this was like, I don't know, nine months ago,

01:39:04   something like that when I got these, the Beats ones.

01:39:06   But the thing I noticed was over the winter,

01:39:08   how nice it was in the East Coast winter

01:39:11   when I could wear them all bundled up with a coat

01:39:13   and still have my phone in the pocket.

01:39:16   Because with a winter coat on and a hat and stuff like that,

01:39:19   it was just another type of mess, having a cable.

01:39:22   - Try to like sneak it through different layers.

01:39:24   - Yeah, exactly, like sneak it through the button.

01:39:26   It's almost like when you wire yourself up with a lav mic.

01:39:29   - Exactly.

01:39:30   - And then trying to get it out, it's even worse.

01:39:34   All right, here's one last topic on the headphone thing

01:39:36   and the headphone port being gone that I have in my notes

01:39:39   is the waterproofing angle.

01:39:42   - See, that's kind of a bad one,

01:39:43   because there are already phones out there

01:39:45   that other people make that have headphone ports

01:39:47   and are waterproof.

01:39:49   - And that's, I,

01:39:51   that's true.

01:39:55   I wonder if it would be just part of the story, though.

01:39:59   And then there's an angle where maybe

01:40:02   it's a little bit of BS, because hey, well,

01:40:05   okay, you're saying that the phone is water-resistant now,

01:40:07   And one of the reasons is you got rid of this ancient headphone port, but there's these

01:40:14   other phones that are water resistant and they have it.

01:40:17   Do the other phones that have it, do they make you plug it up with a little rubber cover?

01:40:22   Or are they just like, "Nope, you can just..."

01:40:24   Oh, I don't know.

01:40:25   I think that the...

01:40:26   You assume I've ever seen an Android phone.

01:40:28   Well, there's a funny commercial.

01:40:30   It's obnoxious, but there's a funny commercial or a series of commercials for Samsung where

01:40:36   There's a guy who's, I think I'm supposed to know who he is.

01:40:38   I think he's like a rap star, but I don't know who he is.

01:40:41   And he's got a new Samsung, whatever, top of the line,

01:40:45   Galaxy Edge or whatever, and he's just pouring champagne

01:40:48   on it, and he comes into a convenience store

01:40:50   and he asks the guy, and he's pouring champagne

01:40:52   on his phone while he comes into the store,

01:40:55   and he says, "Where's your champagne?"

01:40:56   And the guy points back there, and the bottle's empty,

01:41:00   and he throws it away, and he goes by a Nuba bottle

01:41:02   of champagne, pops the cork, and then just starts

01:41:04   pouring it on his phone again,

01:41:06   and that's the end of the commercial.

01:41:08   I laugh--

01:41:09   - What a bizarre company that is.

01:41:10   - It is, but it is such an obnoxious commercial.

01:41:13   - They're very good at that.

01:41:16   - Like can you even imagine if Apple had a commercial

01:41:18   that just showed somebody wasting two bottles of champagne

01:41:23   to pour on their phone?

01:41:25   But I can only presume that the Samsung one

01:41:26   must be waterproof with a headphone jack.

01:41:28   - I think it is, yeah, from what I've heard.

01:41:30   I don't know the details,

01:41:31   but all I know is that these phones exist, right?

01:41:32   So there are reasons that Apple could say on stage

01:41:37   to why they did this, but if you look down

01:41:40   the list of reasons why they might do this,

01:41:42   the better audio, the thickness, the waterproofing,

01:41:47   all of these are not strong reasons,

01:41:49   because either they are totally unnecessary

01:41:51   or there's enough ways around that or enough asterisks

01:41:55   on it that it's not really that valid.

01:41:57   So if you look at, there are some cynical reasons

01:42:00   why Apple would want to do this.

01:42:02   I mean, they would stand to make more money.

01:42:04   They would save on component costs.

01:42:05   They would save on warranty repair stuff

01:42:07   when they have to pull lint out of people's headphone jacks

01:42:08   and fix the ones that jam up.

01:42:10   Which, by the way, again,

01:42:12   is also a problem with Lightning ports.

01:42:14   So, like, you know, there are lots of reasons

01:42:16   why Apple wanted to do this.

01:42:17   I mean, it would cause a wave of headphone upgrades

01:42:22   and Apple sells a lot of their own headphones

01:42:25   with their name and Beats's name on them.

01:42:27   In addition, many of those headphone upgrades

01:42:29   would apply at the point of sale when you buy your iPhone.

01:42:33   Hey, why not also treat yourself to this $200 pair of Beats

01:42:37   because you're gonna need to do headphones with this phone.

01:42:39   So that would help their attachment sale rate

01:42:41   with sale of new iPhones.

01:42:42   It's like Apple would tend to make quite a lot

01:42:45   of additional money by doing this.

01:42:47   I hope that's not the reason.

01:42:48   That probably isn't the reason, but I bet that's a reason.

01:42:52   - What if they do ship a pair of white in-ear just pods

01:42:59   with the phone, you just get them with the phone.

01:43:01   Wireless Bluetooth things that come with the phone.

01:43:04   But then they also have a whole lineup

01:43:08   of new Beats stuff ready to go.

01:43:10   Like the upsell is for Beats.

01:43:12   - That's possible, but I think it's very unlikely.

01:43:14   I think it's way more likely what we said earlier

01:43:16   that what you get in the box is either nothing,

01:43:19   like maybe they will just decide, you know what,

01:43:21   we don't need to ship headphones in the box anymore,

01:43:22   you can buy any of the things.

01:43:24   We're doing you a favor, we're offering you the choice.

01:43:26   So maybe that's the angle.

01:43:27   Or more likely, they ship wired lightning headphones

01:43:31   in the box, and it's just a wired lightning version

01:43:33   of the ones they ship now.

01:43:34   That's way more likely, I think.

01:43:36   And it's possible that the way that,

01:43:40   what's that Japanese rumor site?

01:43:42   Like, Okator, I don't know, I don't know how to pronounce

01:43:46   Japanese words, I will just embarrass myself, unfortunately.

01:43:48   But they reported months ago when we first started

01:43:51   talking about this that the next iPhone would have

01:43:53   a special, some extra pins on the lightning port

01:43:57   and special secretary inside of it,

01:43:58   would actually send analog audio out over the port

01:44:01   to be able to power passive devices

01:44:03   that don't have a built-in DAC and AMP,

01:44:06   and that would be how the next cheap Apple earbuds

01:44:09   would receive the audio.

01:44:10   So it's physically over the Lightning port,

01:44:12   but they're receiving analog audio.

01:44:14   That seems very plausible to me.

01:44:16   I said it even back then,

01:44:17   that sounds extremely likely to be

01:44:19   how they solve this problem for their own earbuds.

01:44:22   And if they wanted to offer a dongle,

01:44:24   they could do one very cheaply

01:44:26   and it could be a very simple device

01:44:28   if they have that kind of setup.

01:44:29   - Yes, that sounds possible.

01:44:31   And that's one of the reasons I've seen people toss out,

01:44:33   hey, maybe they'll switch the iPhone to USB-C

01:44:35   because I think part of the official USB-C

01:44:38   SPAC is analog audio pass through on one of the pins

01:44:43   or something like that, I could be wrong.

01:44:46   - Probably. - And Lightning

01:44:47   doesn't have that.

01:44:48   But the difference is that Apple can change Lightning

01:44:50   whenever it wants to.

01:44:51   - Exactly. - It doesn't have to.

01:44:53   - And they can so easily say like,

01:44:55   well, you know, we didn't need this part

01:44:57   of the Lightning port on any previous phone

01:44:58   because they all had headphone jacks.

01:44:59   Now this one, we've helped everyone out.

01:45:02   So I think to me, I guess my final for now comment

01:45:05   on the headphone jack thing is like,

01:45:08   is there any reason I can come up with

01:45:11   why this would be a positive thing for customers?

01:45:13   It's obviously good for Apple.

01:45:14   Why is it good for customers?

01:45:16   And I can come up with one reason.

01:45:17   And that would be if they replace the space

01:45:21   used by the headphone jack with another speaker.

01:45:24   and if by doing this they can dramatically improve

01:45:28   the quality of the built-in speaker output of the iPhone.

01:45:31   Because as I learn more about how people use iPhones,

01:45:36   so I do my own analytics in Overcast

01:45:39   of what is the current output device type?

01:45:42   And the audio API is pretty coarse-grained on that,

01:45:46   but it can tell you whether it's internal speaker

01:45:48   or wired headphones or Bluetooth or AirPlay.

01:45:50   And that helps me to figure out,

01:45:52   hey, what kind of features do I work on next?

01:45:54   That's one of the reasons why I did the speaker optimized voice boost in a recent version

01:45:58   because I learned that tons of people use the iPhone built-in speaker and I always have

01:46:05   but I thought I was just like a weird freak who worked at home.

01:46:08   I didn't know anyone else did but it turns out tons of people use the iPhone speaker

01:46:12   all the time even though it slaughters your battery but it doesn't matter.

01:46:16   Everyone does it anyway and a lot of people do it like in cars.

01:46:19   They play music from their phone in their car that they don't have a better connection

01:46:22   to.

01:46:23   we'll do it around the house.

01:46:24   I mean, it's so common.

01:46:27   So, and that's one of the reasons why I ended up buying

01:46:30   the new Baby Pro, the new 9.7 inch iPad, because--

01:46:33   - It sounds so much better.

01:46:34   - Oh my god, it's night and day.

01:46:36   I mean-- - It's unbelievable.

01:46:37   - And like, I use it as a kitchen speaker most of the time,

01:46:39   plus like a couch iPad, and oh my god,

01:46:41   it's massively different.

01:46:42   So what if they were able to do a large improvement

01:46:46   to the internal speaker of the iPhone

01:46:48   by replacing the headphone jack with a second speaker?

01:46:51   - I like your thinking.

01:46:53   That sounds compelling to me.

01:46:55   - The only, my only hesitation on that

01:46:58   is that the reason they're able to do it with the iPad

01:47:00   is when you look at how you're allocating space

01:47:04   inside of a computer device these days,

01:47:06   these mobile, modern, ultra-thin, awesome devices,

01:47:09   you like to think, oh, well, figure out

01:47:12   what components you need and then fill

01:47:13   the rest of the space with battery.

01:47:15   The problem is batteries are really heavy.

01:47:17   So my theory is that, you know, we talk about Apple

01:47:21   pushing everything to be super thin and everything,

01:47:23   and in some ways that goes too far,

01:47:24   like the MacBook One keyboard.

01:47:26   But I think what they really are doing

01:47:28   is they're trying to target a weight goal.

01:47:31   And the weight goal is limited by how much battery

01:47:34   you're willing to carry, like how much battery

01:47:37   are you willing to devote weight to.

01:47:39   And then you can just kind of shrink the enclosure

01:47:41   around that and be like, what's the smallest enclosure

01:47:43   we can make that fits only this amount of battery

01:47:46   and nothing else, you know?

01:47:48   And with the iPad, they've kind of reached this point

01:47:51   where, well, the enclosure is this thin, flat thing,

01:47:54   and they basically can't make it a lot thinner

01:47:58   and keeping the same amount of battery

01:48:01   and still have it be a flat back.

01:48:03   Like they'd have to like kind of make it like a bulge

01:48:04   where the battery sticks out,

01:48:05   kind of like their battery case for the phone,

01:48:07   or you know, something like that.

01:48:08   That would look dumb.

01:48:09   So basically with the iPad,

01:48:11   because of this like battery weight trade off,

01:48:14   they end up having a lot of extra space in the case.

01:48:17   So they spent that extra space on big speaker cavities

01:48:20   to like tunnel the sound and make it sound better

01:48:23   and everything.

01:48:24   On the phone, they don't have that kind of volume to spare.

01:48:28   So they might get some of it with the headphone jack

01:48:30   removal and that might be enough to just basically

01:48:33   like double the speaker we have now, which would help,

01:48:35   that would be nice.

01:48:36   But in order to make a really big improvement,

01:48:39   I feel like they would have to do like one of those

01:48:41   four speaker arrangements like they have on the iPad

01:48:43   or like have any phones on that?

01:48:44   Probably some Android phones on that.

01:48:46   Like to have like a speaker on every corner basically

01:48:48   instead of just the bottom half.

01:48:49   - I don't think they would have to do that.

01:48:51   'Cause I think everybody holds the phone.

01:48:53   Although I guess when you watch video,

01:48:55   it's always, it is a little weird

01:48:56   that the sound's only coming out of one side.

01:48:58   - I mean if they did that it would be great.

01:49:00   But I just don't think they have enough space.

01:49:02   I don't think they have enough free volume

01:49:04   inside the phone to do that.

01:49:06   - It also raises the question of the idea of the notion of

01:49:09   hey let's make the speakers bottom,

01:49:11   let's use the space on the bottom for the speakers,

01:49:13   do it on both sides, you could have stereo.

01:49:15   Well then why not put the headphone back at the top

01:49:18   where it used to be for years?

01:49:20   - Right.

01:49:21   Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.

01:49:24   My most plausible, most optimistic version of this,

01:49:28   well, first of all, my most optimistic version

01:49:29   is that the headphone jack doesn't go away.

01:49:31   But if it's gonna go away,

01:49:32   my most optimistic version of this that is plausible

01:49:36   is that they're just gonna put a second speaker there

01:49:38   that's roughly as good as the one we have now

01:49:39   or maybe a little bit better,

01:49:41   And that will still be a big improvement to the speaker,

01:49:43   but not as big of an improvement as we have on the iPad.

01:49:46   - I enjoy that there's 300,000 people

01:49:48   who've signed a petition not to do this.

01:49:51   - Really?

01:49:52   - Yeah.

01:49:53   - That's amazing.

01:49:54   That'll help.

01:49:55   - Well, it's already done.

01:49:57   If it's true--

01:49:57   - I know, that's the thing, it's too late.

01:49:59   - It's already done.

01:50:00   It's getting to the point where I think it's too late

01:50:01   to change next year's iPhone, let alone this year's.

01:50:03   Like, that's the thing.

01:50:04   - Yeah, it might be.

01:50:05   - People do not understand, like,

01:50:07   this is how Apple ships 70 million iPhones

01:50:10   in the first quarter, it's because the production ramp up

01:50:13   is months in advance.

01:50:14   - Yeah, I mean, they're probably already

01:50:15   being manufactured right now.

01:50:18   - It is. - This year's model.

01:50:19   - All this speculation, it is still,

01:50:20   I'm damn curious to hear them tell me why.

01:50:24   I can't wait.

01:50:25   But I do know that, and again, they could make mistakes,

01:50:28   Apple does make big mistakes sometimes,

01:50:30   and this could be one, but in general,

01:50:32   the company has a very strong,

01:50:39   I don't know what you would call it, like a rule,

01:50:41   but just a policy, it's just the way they work,

01:50:43   is they don't make changes for changes' sake.

01:50:45   They only make changes if the change is for the better.

01:50:48   Now the question is, better for whom?

01:50:50   I mean, and sometimes changes are what's better for Apple.

01:50:54   - I would maybe argue the ForceTux trackpad

01:50:57   on all the computers that aren't the MacBook One,

01:50:59   where the thinness isn't necessary is,

01:51:01   maybe on the wrong side of that, but that's just me.

01:51:03   - Can I just tell you, we disagree on that,

01:51:04   because I have my regular 13 inch MacBook Pro

01:51:09   has the old physically clicky one.

01:51:13   I love the Force Touch one.

01:51:15   I like it so much that I would almost,

01:51:17   it would be such a waste of money,

01:51:19   but I almost wanna get a new MacBook Pro

01:51:21   just to get the Force Touch Pro.

01:51:23   I like it that much better.

01:51:24   I really do. - Well, I will say though

01:51:25   that the one on the 13 inch MacBook Pro,

01:51:28   which would be I guess the one you'd probably be getting.

01:51:31   - Without question, that's the one I would be getting.

01:51:32   Yeah, that one is the best one that I've felt.

01:51:36   Like, a lot of people don't realize

01:51:38   that every Force Talks trackpad feels a little bit different

01:51:40   because they're all like different sizes,

01:51:42   slightly different components, I think.

01:51:43   The one in the MacBook One is the worst.

01:51:45   It is, I mean, just like everything else

01:51:47   but the MacBook One, it's like, you know,

01:51:49   horrible for input, but really great for portability.

01:51:51   Right, so it's fine.

01:51:53   The desktop one, which I actually have one,

01:51:56   I use it as my left hand pointing thing

01:51:57   for like when I'm scrubbing through logic projects

01:51:59   when editing podcasts.

01:52:01   The desktop one is decent.

01:52:03   The 15 inch one is decent.

01:52:05   The 13 inch MacBook Pro one is actually pretty good.

01:52:07   None of them I would call great,

01:52:10   but the 13 inch MacBook Pro I would say feels the best.

01:52:13   But honestly, I dislike the Force Touch so much

01:52:18   that I'm just converting myself to be a tap to click person,

01:52:20   which I hate, but I hate it less.

01:52:22   - Anything else on the headphone port?

01:52:28   - I think that's it.

01:52:29   we're not gonna make this to our mark because we just crossed we just crossed

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01:55:16   What else is on our agenda before we sign off?

01:55:18   We're almost done, right?

01:55:20   - Yeah, I mean, there were only four or five more topics

01:55:22   that you had that were giant, like the entire conference

01:55:24   or whole platforms like iOS and watchOS and tvOS.

01:55:28   - You know what, the watchOS thing is so fascinating to me

01:55:32   because I just linked to a thing today where David Sparks,

01:55:35   So the hiccup with upgrading to watchOS 3,

01:55:39   if I could just upgrade my watch to watchOS 3,

01:55:41   I would do it in a heartbeat.

01:55:42   Because I don't really,

01:55:45   I have so many issues with watchOS 2

01:55:47   that watchOS 3 exactly tackles.

01:55:50   I would, betas and all,

01:55:52   and if my watch gets stuck, it gets stuck or whatever.

01:55:56   That's fine, I could totally live with that.

01:55:57   But the problem is you can't upgrade to watchOS 3

01:56:00   unless the paired iPhone you have it with

01:56:01   is upgraded to iOS 10.

01:56:03   And I understand why that is.

01:56:04   It makes a lot of sense, but I am definitely not ready

01:56:07   to upgrade my daily iPhone to iOS 10,

01:56:09   and probably won't be until later in the summer.

01:56:12   - Yeah, I mean, like typically, like I think

01:56:13   for regular people, the best advice is

01:56:17   just don't use the betas, but if you insist

01:56:19   on using the betas, you know, wait until at least

01:56:22   like public beta two or so, and for like people

01:56:25   who wanna write about it and talk about it,

01:56:27   or developers, I think a good rule of thumb

01:56:30   is roughly beta three of the developer side,

01:56:33   which roughly correlates to beta one of the public side usually.

01:56:35   Right, and summer just is like the worst time of year for me to like take risks with my phone

01:56:40   because we're traveling, we're going on vacations and just going away for weekends to see family

01:56:46   and stuff, we just are out more and so I rely on my phone more in the summer than any other time.

01:56:51   Like if it was like time shifted by six months and we got like the betas in September,

01:56:56   I'd probably put it on my phone. Still wouldn't put the first one on, but I definitely would

01:57:01   wait and listen to what everybody says about developer beta 2 and probably go from there.

01:57:05   But I can't do it in the summer. But anyway, David Sparks bravely did. And really just had nothing,

01:57:13   you know, it's true. I mean, effectively, what Apple said in the keynote, because I

01:57:18   was really skeptical, honestly, watching the keynote.

01:57:21   **Matt Stauffer:** Oh, I think we all were.

01:57:22   **Ezra Klein:** I mean, like super skeptical to the point where I was sitting with Ben Thompson,

01:57:27   and I was like

01:57:28   If he's full of shit, this is gonna be so much worse like

01:57:31   but you know

01:57:33   I got to play with them in hands-on and they were is

01:57:35   Every bit as fast as promised and now that people brave people in the real world are trying it there

01:57:40   They can vouch that what Apple said is true that it has enough RAM to keep you know

01:57:46   Half a dozen apps suspended in memory, which makes them

01:57:49   Instant, you know when you switch back to them they they're right there instantly and the background updates

01:57:55   this is why it requires iOS 10 on your paired iPhone.

01:57:58   The background updates really do update in the background.

01:58:02   - Yeah, and there's a lot of things that you still can't do

01:58:05   in real time, or there's still a lot of limits

01:58:09   to conserve power and stuff, but it's substantially

01:58:13   different and way better than how it was before.

01:58:16   And by the way, to help people not feel too bad

01:58:20   they can't run this yet, or they shouldn't run this yet

01:58:22   on their main phone and watch, keep in mind

01:58:24   that a lot of these benefits, you're not really gonna see

01:58:27   as a user until the apps can be updated for it,

01:58:29   which can't happen until the release.

01:58:31   - Yeah.

01:58:32   - So like, you know, you could have like your dock

01:58:33   full of like Apple's apps, but you're not gonna have

01:58:36   any of those benefits for third party apps

01:58:37   unless you're like on their beta maybe,

01:58:39   but I don't even know if we can send out

01:58:41   test flight builds for iOS 10 yet, I don't even know.

01:58:43   - Yeah, I don't know either.

01:58:44   - But it's gonna be a while if we can,

01:58:46   like it's gonna be probably later in the summer

01:58:47   if that when that happens, and then you know,

01:58:49   any app you're not in the beta for,

01:58:50   you literally can't use the watchOS 3,

01:58:53   enhancements to that app until like October or whenever,

01:58:56   you know, whenever it's released.

01:58:57   - It's, at a zoom out and at a high level,

01:59:00   it's interesting to me in a couple of ways.

01:59:01   And one is that, especially with iOS,

01:59:04   and watchOS is a variant of iOS, so I think it qualifies.

01:59:07   Apple has, for years, had the knock against it

01:59:11   that older devices upgraded to the new OS

01:59:15   instantly gets lower, to the point where, you know,

01:59:17   there was the Catherine Ramble article

01:59:20   in the New York Times of all places

01:59:21   that was accusing them of doing it deliberately to spur upgrade sales. I mean, that's something

01:59:26   people believe. And there is...

01:59:27   Your times really come downhill recently, huh?

01:59:29   For some, for some people, you know, there are, you know, and some of that is actually true. I

01:59:33   don't think it was ever deliberate. I really don't. It's antithetical to Apple. And most of the people

01:59:38   I know at Apple who are engineers, if they were told to do something like that, they would quit.

01:59:42   They would actually quit their jobs rather than purposefully make an upgrade run slower on a

01:59:47   a certain device. The problem is more that they didn't spend enough time

01:59:51   optimizing it because everybody was working on the new version of iOS, was

01:59:55   using the latest and greatest hardware. And then like at the end it's like, well

01:59:58   quick try to make this run fast on an iPad mini too. And it's like... Turn off some

02:00:05   stuff, it'll be fine. Yeah, I don't know, dial down the animation. Well, it's time to ship. Here it is.

02:00:11   I don't think it was purposeful, I really don't, but it was true that there have

02:00:15   been versions of iOS that come out for older devices and it does make them slow.

02:00:19   And it's so funny that with this one it is going to make your year-old watch

02:00:25   faster. And way faster. Right. Like noticeably faster. Like I did I haven't

02:00:33   spent a day using it because I don't have you know yeah but in the hands-on

02:00:37   area for the press that I got to play with it you know it really feels like a

02:00:42   at new hardware.

02:00:44   It's really kind of hard to believe

02:00:45   that this is the same hardware as the old one.

02:00:48   - Yeah, I got to, at WBC, I got to play with it

02:00:52   with underscore David Smith's watch,

02:00:53   a friend of the show, my friend underscore David Smith.

02:00:55   And, 'cause he's a big watchOS developer.

02:00:59   He has a bunch of watch apps, and so he had, of course,

02:01:02   because he's incredibly productive

02:01:04   and embarrasses all of us, he had already built

02:01:07   like two of his apps for the watch,

02:01:08   and like already had the complications installed,

02:01:10   and had him like, so he was showing me,

02:01:12   This was on Tuesday or Wednesday of WDC,

02:01:15   an amazing time.

02:01:16   - It blows me away.

02:01:18   - Yeah, and I got to play with it.

02:01:21   He was showing me on his, of course he had two watches.

02:01:23   He had a second one to run the beta on

02:01:24   because he's amazing.

02:01:26   And it really is real.

02:01:31   It wasn't just PR, it wasn't just a presentation.

02:01:34   The gains are real.

02:01:36   I too was just as skeptical.

02:01:39   I was like, oh come on, there's no way

02:01:41   it's gonna be that fast in reality.

02:01:42   And it really is that fast in reality.

02:01:43   It's not perfect, some of the animations still

02:01:46   skip a little bit here and there.

02:01:48   It's still very slow hardware,

02:01:50   but it just seems like it was being used very poorly

02:01:54   in watchOS 1 and 2.

02:01:56   The hardware that's there, it's not as bad as it seemed.

02:01:59   It's still very slow and very rudimentary hardware,

02:02:02   but the software was seemingly making

02:02:05   a lot of bad life choices before,

02:02:07   and now they've really had a lot of time.

02:02:09   And I mean, you know, I've been kind of cool on the watch

02:02:13   in recent months and I don't really wear it anymore.

02:02:17   But this, like, this is a huge update.

02:02:20   This is a way bigger update and I'm way more impressed

02:02:24   by it than I thought I would be with, you know,

02:02:26   whatever watchOS 3 turned out to be this summer.

02:02:28   I was not expecting this big of an update

02:02:30   and this big of a change.

02:02:31   And, you know, for them to reconsider and rethink

02:02:35   some of the design of the watch software environment.

02:02:38   and to get rid of the stupid friend circle,

02:02:39   or at least move it somewhere else,

02:02:40   and to get rid of glances,

02:02:42   and to unify apps with glances,

02:02:44   and to make, you know, all that stuff,

02:02:46   you know, I've been thinking for a while,

02:02:47   like, some of these things would be nice to do,

02:02:50   but they're not gonna do it,

02:02:51   because they already built this whole thing,

02:02:52   and it's too late.

02:02:53   And it turns out, it wasn't too late,

02:02:55   and they changed their mind,

02:02:56   'cause they saw how things were actually used,

02:02:58   and they saw ways to make it better,

02:02:59   and that's great.

02:03:01   And as a developer of, you know,

02:03:03   like I'm gonna make Overcast for the watch,

02:03:05   you know, at some point soon,

02:03:06   I don't know if I'll make it in time for day one,

02:03:08   but I'm gonna try.

02:03:09   'Cause my old watch app, based on WatchKit 1,

02:03:13   it was just terrible.

02:03:14   It was just too slow, too unreliable.

02:03:16   And I didn't upgrade it to watchOS 2

02:03:18   because it was gonna be a ton of work.

02:03:20   'Cause watchOS 2 was not too different for users,

02:03:23   but it was very different for developers.

02:03:25   So it was gonna be a ton of work to do,

02:03:28   and the gains just were not really there.

02:03:30   So I decided not to do it,

02:03:32   and to just wait and see what OS 3 brought.

02:03:34   And I'm sure that I did because--

02:03:36   - Yeah.

02:03:36   - OS 3 is a major, major upgrade for users and developers,

02:03:40   and now it's possible to actually make decent apps.

02:03:43   Like before, even the best app you could make

02:03:45   for watchOS 1 and 2, it was pretty mediocre to actually use.

02:03:49   Now it's actually possible to make good, compelling apps

02:03:53   for the watch, and it's still not easy,

02:03:54   and there's still plenty of limitations,

02:03:56   but it's at least possible,

02:03:58   and there's good stuff to be done there.

02:04:00   - I can't think of anything else to compare it to,

02:04:02   except maybe when Mac OS X first came out,

02:04:04   I know this predates you as a Mac user,

02:04:06   but Mac OS 10.0 was so dreadfully slow.

02:04:11   It was everything.

02:04:13   I mean, just clicking on a menu

02:04:15   and having the menu drop down was slow

02:04:17   because it just, what Aqua was doing,

02:04:21   what the user interface was doing

02:04:22   was so far ahead of the hardware that it was just slow.

02:04:27   And it was, what made that so painful was one thing

02:04:32   that was not a problem with the classic Mac OS was,

02:04:35   for lack of a better word, snappiness.

02:04:38   The UI, there were lots of technical problems

02:04:40   with the old Mac OS, but it was very snappy,

02:04:43   because, and part of that was simply because

02:04:45   it was so far behind the hardware,

02:04:47   because it was this OS, the problems with the OS

02:04:50   was that it had low-level parts that dated to the '80s,

02:04:54   and here we are running it on 2000, 2001

02:04:58   Power Mac G3 hardware.

02:05:00   the hardware was way more powerful than what the software was originally designed for,

02:05:05   and it made it real fast.

02:05:06   And so, you know, most of us at the time were either dual-booting between the two for different

02:05:10   tasks or we had, like, I used to run Mac OS 9 on my desktop and I'd have Mac OS 10 on

02:05:17   my PowerBook.

02:05:19   And it was so painful to switch.

02:05:21   And 10.1 came out, like, five months later, six months later, something like that, like,

02:05:27   way less than a year later, and was a pretty big improvement.

02:05:30   It was still slow, but it had obviously gotten a lot of low-hanging fruit out of the what's

02:05:34   making this feel so slow.

02:05:37   But it was nowhere near as dramatic as this watchOS 2 to 3.

02:05:41   It was a nice improvement, but it was really like a series of iterative improvements over

02:05:46   like four years.

02:05:47   As I recall, sometime around like 10.4 was when Mac OS X finally felt like, "Okay, this

02:05:53   is...

02:05:54   It may not be fast yet, but it's at least not slow."

02:05:57   I'm trying to figure out what is going on with watchOS 3.

02:06:00   How is this possible?

02:06:01   - Well, I mean, I think Federighi's explanation

02:06:03   last week on the talk show was great,

02:06:05   which is basically many of the things

02:06:09   that were making watchOS so slow before

02:06:12   were just extreme conservatism

02:06:15   about how things are kept in memory,

02:06:18   what apps can do, what they can't do,

02:06:21   what kind of background operations they can and can't do.

02:06:23   That's one of the reasons why,

02:06:24   basically with watchOS 1 and 2,

02:06:26   every time you launch an app,

02:06:27   it was basically launching from scratch.

02:06:29   And it was not really able to do much, if anything,

02:06:33   in the background in the meantime.

02:06:34   So you'd have to launch it,

02:06:35   then you'd have to wait for it to get new data

02:06:37   'cause the data it had was out of date.

02:06:38   And it was just slow and it was a pain.

02:06:41   And then you'd go and you'd try to launch it again,

02:06:43   like a few minutes later,

02:06:44   after the watch turned off to save power,

02:06:46   you'd go to launch it again like a few minutes later

02:06:48   or a few seconds later,

02:06:49   and you'd be back to the clock face or the home screen.

02:06:51   You have to go back to the app again,

02:06:52   or double click on the button

02:06:54   to get the last used app or whatever.

02:06:56   And it was just, it was way too aggressive

02:06:59   about kicking apps out of memory

02:07:00   and about researching what they could do in the background.

02:07:03   And so, and Federighi explained it very well.

02:07:05   It's basically like, the explanation was basically like,

02:07:08   oh, we had extra RAM.

02:07:09   Like we overshot our budget on RAM and power

02:07:11   and it turns out, you know,

02:07:12   the way people use the watch is different

02:07:13   and it works better than we thought it would

02:07:15   for RAM and power.

02:07:17   So we spent some of it.

02:07:18   So, you know, the watch now, like with OS 3,

02:07:22   if you use any of these new features

02:07:24   of having these apps in the dock

02:07:25   and having them be updated more often,

02:07:27   or especially if you put them in complications,

02:07:28   then they can update a lot more often.

02:07:30   You are going to get less battery life,

02:07:32   but I think it can,

02:07:35   when I wear the watch every day,

02:07:37   most days I'd go to bed and the battery would be at 50%.

02:07:40   So I'd be willing to spare a little bit of battery life

02:07:43   to make the thing more useful to me.

02:07:45   - I think that's all true,

02:07:48   and again, I think Federighi's explanation was interesting,

02:07:51   and I think very honest.

02:07:52   I think that being stingy with RAM was probably very much true.

02:07:58   But strategically, here's my theory.

02:08:00   I think what we're seeing is that Apple released the watch too early and that this is what

02:08:08   they should have launched with.

02:08:09   And that the process that they went through of having what we know as watchOS 1 and then

02:08:17   and watchOS 2 was what they should have

02:08:20   and in the past usually went through internally

02:08:23   before they got to, okay, this is good enough.

02:08:26   That they were probably like a version of the iPhone

02:08:29   that was every bit as crappy as the user experience

02:08:33   of watchOS 1 and maybe not even crappiness,

02:08:37   but maybe like the confusing nature of the UI paradigm

02:08:40   and the convolutedness and like there's like,

02:08:44   there were like some yada, yada, yada parts of it

02:08:46   where there's no real spatial thing.

02:08:48   It's like, well, you drag, you know,

02:08:49   these glances are down there and you drag them up

02:08:51   and the apps are, you know, like behind the watch face,

02:08:54   you click this button and you get to the apps

02:08:56   and then they pop forward.

02:08:57   And the apps, the glances are sort of like an app,

02:08:59   except they're limited, but they're always there.

02:09:01   And it's like, well, why are they down?

02:09:03   What's, why is this other thing underneath?

02:09:05   I feel like everything probably goes through that.

02:09:08   And again, I always hate to bring out the,

02:09:13   you know, Steve Jobs card,

02:09:15   but that one of his gifts was,

02:09:18   of course he was great at motivating people

02:09:20   to work really hard and ship things ahead of their time,

02:09:22   but I also think that he had an uncanny ability

02:09:25   to keep saying not good enough, not good enough,

02:09:29   even if it meant shipping years after he wanted to ship.

02:09:33   - Yeah, and as we talked about earlier,

02:09:37   with Tim versus Phil and everybody else

02:09:39   for product direction,

02:09:40   Steve was the head of product direction.

02:09:44   He was the chief editor,

02:09:45   and I think he played large roles

02:09:48   in product choices and direction.

02:09:51   And you can't have somebody like that

02:09:55   just removed and gone forever and have things not change.

02:09:59   Things are going to change,

02:10:00   and not all of it's gonna be for the better.

02:10:02   A lot of it's gonna be better,

02:10:03   a lot of it's gonna be worse,

02:10:04   a lot of it's just gonna be different.

02:10:05   One of the things that changed is the role

02:10:07   of that product editing and the head of product direction

02:10:11   has now apparently, from what we can tell,

02:10:13   kind of split up between these people.

02:10:15   And the watch, from what I understand,

02:10:17   the watch was kind of like a satellite project,

02:10:20   and it seemed, there was a lot about the watch

02:10:22   that was kind of bizarre, like some of the weird,

02:10:25   creepy stretchy face emoji, and the whole Friends,

02:10:28   the ring of Friends, you're supposed to digitally touch,

02:10:30   I mean, the whole thing was weird.

02:10:32   And again, some of the spatial things

02:10:36   and why Watch Kit 1 was just so incredibly bad

02:10:39   and why they decided to ship that,

02:10:40   it does seem like that might have been partially because

02:10:44   of this kind of split product responsibility.

02:10:47   This was kind of relegated as a satellite project

02:10:50   or a skunkworks kind of thing.

02:10:52   Maybe not because it was considered low priority,

02:10:55   but just because it was something new

02:10:56   and everyone else was busy.

02:10:57   I don't know, I don't know the reason,

02:10:58   but it was clearly something

02:11:01   from a side project division of Apple.

02:11:03   It suffered in a number of ways because of that,

02:11:07   and it seems like they've maybe realized

02:11:10   this was not as good as we wanted it to be at first,

02:11:12   so let's fix it, let's put some more into it,

02:11:14   and let's actually fix it.

02:11:16   - I think that they would have gotten

02:11:17   to this point inevitably.

02:11:18   I just think that it's almost like we've gotten

02:11:20   an amazing behind-the-scenes look

02:11:21   at how Apple goes through designs and iterates.

02:11:26   And this makes so much more sense,

02:11:30   just a basic fundamental level,

02:11:31   and it works so much better.

02:11:33   You have to remember, too, that two years ago,

02:11:35   so two years ago at this point,

02:11:36   The watch hadn't been announced yet.

02:11:39   It was announced in September two years ago.

02:11:42   But it was rumored.

02:11:43   And at the time Apple was under inordinate scrutiny

02:11:47   for Apple can't innovate anymore

02:11:51   because Steve Jobs isn't there.

02:11:53   And they haven't had a new product since the iPod,

02:11:56   or iPad in 2010, and now it's been forever,

02:11:59   and they're overdue for a product.

02:12:01   So they were under tremendous scrutiny for,

02:12:05   hey, how about you release something new

02:12:06   and show us that you can still amaze us.

02:12:09   And I think part of that was pressure on Tim Cook, the CEO,

02:12:12   and I think part of that was definitely pressure on Johnny

02:12:14   Ive as, well, let's see what Johnny Ive can do now

02:12:17   that he doesn't have Steve Jobs.

02:12:18   And ultimately, we don't know who it is who got to say,

02:12:23   OK, let's ship the watch this year.

02:12:25   We'll announce it in September and ship it sometime later,

02:12:29   probably next year.

02:12:31   I don't know who made that decision that this is

02:12:33   good enough to ship, but I think in hindsight,

02:12:35   especially now that we've seen watchOS 3,

02:12:37   it was clearly too soon.

02:12:38   I think that the watch should have been announced this year.

02:12:41   And maybe I'm wrong because two more years of where's,

02:12:46   you know, how about a new product?

02:12:47   How about a new product?

02:12:48   How about a new product?

02:12:49   Maybe that would have been too much to bear.

02:12:51   But I just feel like this really feels to me

02:12:54   like what watch 1.0 should have been.

02:12:56   - Yeah, oh, and no question.

02:12:58   I mean, it's, it's still not perfect.

02:13:02   I mean, nothing ever is really.

02:13:03   But it is such an improvement,

02:13:06   and to have such an improvement after,

02:13:10   what is a relatively short time, really,

02:13:12   I mean, heck, the hardware is feeling pretty old

02:13:15   at this point, I wish they'd update that,

02:13:16   but to have the software go from where it was last year

02:13:20   to this in one year is very impressive.

02:13:23   But on the other side of that,

02:13:25   do you think they actually would have reached

02:13:27   this conclusion internally?

02:13:28   'Cause one of the things they can't do really internally

02:13:30   is learn what people will do and what developers will do

02:13:35   with like, how many apps will you use?

02:13:37   What will apps want to do?

02:13:39   What apps will end up being compelling

02:13:40   and which apps won't?

02:13:42   They kind of can't do that very well

02:13:44   without just releasing it and seeing what the app market

02:13:46   and what the users actually do with it.

02:13:47   But there is a lot of stuff about like the initial release

02:13:50   of the watch that you look at and you're like,

02:13:53   did they test this much internally?

02:13:55   Like, did they really think this was gonna be good?

02:13:59   I don't know.

02:14:00   - Yeah, some of the stuff that is in watchOS 3

02:14:02   definitely wouldn't have been there

02:14:04   if they hadn't launched and observed

02:14:06   what people really use it for.

02:14:08   And a big one is fitness tracking,

02:14:10   that an awful lot of Apple Watch purchasers,

02:14:14   I think maybe they told me in a briefing

02:14:17   what the percentage is, but it's big.

02:14:19   I don't know if it's public or not,

02:14:20   but a big percentage that they have found

02:14:22   if people buy it primarily as a fitness tracking device,

02:14:25   that it is just a one-to-one competitor

02:14:28   with like a Fitbit or something like that.

02:14:30   And therefore, they really, really focused

02:14:33   on the fitness and activity tracking in watchOS 3.

02:14:38   I think that the new default watch face

02:14:40   is the one that shows the circles as the dial.

02:14:44   I think that's how big of a deal fitness tracking is,

02:14:46   that it's now the default watch face.

02:14:49   - It was, I mean, when I used it,

02:14:53   I was all about the fitness rings.

02:14:55   And if I cared less about watch face design,

02:14:59   I would gladly say that as my home screen.

02:15:02   Right now I'm just too much of a picky jerk

02:15:04   to wanna use that, but--

02:15:05   - So that's there too.

02:15:08   I mean, there is, in some ways, Apple is benefiting

02:15:10   from the release early and often.

02:15:13   And especially in the way,

02:15:15   I think the other thing we're seeing,

02:15:17   and I think it makes sense to me,

02:15:19   that software takes longer than hardware in some ways.

02:15:24   Oh yeah, easy.

02:15:25   Especially like to design, because it's too nebulous.

02:15:30   There's too many infinite possibilities.

02:15:34   It's the constraints of hardware.

02:15:36   Like, well, look, it has to look good.

02:15:39   Johnny's made this design.

02:15:40   It can't be any bigger than this.

02:15:42   It has to be this small so that there's like a model that people

02:15:45   with smaller wrists and like women and children

02:15:47   can wear without looking ridiculous.

02:15:50   And the most energy efficient screen we have

02:15:55   is gonna consume this much power

02:15:57   and take all these constraints

02:15:58   and figure out what the best thing is,

02:16:00   is almost, it makes it faster to come up with the design

02:16:03   than the infinite possibilities of software.

02:16:06   - Yeah, although to be fair, I mean,

02:16:08   I think as we're seeing the Apple Watch hardware

02:16:12   get somewhat long in the tooth now,

02:16:15   if you look around the smartwatch landscape,

02:16:17   when the Apple Watch first came out,

02:16:18   the smartwatch landscape looked pretty miserable.

02:16:20   There was almost nothing else of value.

02:16:23   There was, like, on the low end you had Pebble,

02:16:26   and Pebble watches are basically the modern day

02:16:29   geeks quartz watch.

02:16:30   So it's like, you know, it's not like that,

02:16:35   like, you know, high fashion, it's not particularly

02:16:38   glamorous or even graceful or even, you know,

02:16:42   necessarily even nice, but it served a very useful purpose

02:16:45   and it was like a great utility.

02:16:48   and it looked like it, but it was priced like it too,

02:16:50   and it was fine.

02:16:51   Then you had like--

02:16:52   - I still, I root for them.

02:16:53   I don't like Pebble.

02:16:54   I bought one and I did not like it,

02:16:56   but I still root for them as a company

02:16:57   because I really enjoy the fact

02:16:59   that they have a very different set of priorities

02:17:01   than anybody else.

02:17:02   They're definitely appealing to nerds.

02:17:04   They're definitely appealing to people

02:17:07   who wanna get notifications from apps and stuff,

02:17:08   but they value practicality above anything else

02:17:12   to a ridiculous degree,

02:17:14   and that's very different than Apple.

02:17:16   - And also, again,

02:17:17   I gotta give them credit, their pricing is really low

02:17:19   for what you're getting, it's a very good value.

02:17:21   And then, so we had that and then we had like

02:17:23   the initial batch of Android Wear watches

02:17:26   which were just horrible, like they were just the worst.

02:17:29   But that was now, what, almost two years ago.

02:17:33   They've moved on, Pebble has gotten better,

02:17:36   they're still not my style but I greatly respect

02:17:40   the progress they've made in that time.

02:17:41   And the Android Wear watches, like I'm now seeing

02:17:44   Android Wear watches in person, in the world, like around.

02:17:48   And occasionally, I'll be somewhere,

02:17:49   like I was getting my windshield replaced,

02:17:52   thanks Highway Rocks, and the service guy I was talking to

02:17:56   had an Android Wear, I'm like, what is that watch?

02:17:58   And I asked him about it, and it was,

02:18:00   I forget which one he said it was,

02:18:01   it was, is the LG Urbane a thing, is that a watch?

02:18:06   It might have been that one

02:18:07   that's sticking out my head for some reason.

02:18:08   But I've seen now a number of Android Wear smartwatches

02:18:12   in person that look decent.

02:18:15   They're all pretty big for me,

02:18:17   but they look decent.

02:18:19   And I think they might even look more modern

02:18:24   than the Apple Watch, possibly,

02:18:25   just because it's a fresher look.

02:18:28   Again, just like with the Mac Pro,

02:18:30   Apple set the bar for this is gonna be the future

02:18:34   and it's gonna be all this GPU power,

02:18:35   then they just didn't follow through.

02:18:37   With the Apple Watch, they set a big bar on fashion.

02:18:40   and to have this object that is supposed to be

02:18:43   like this fashionable accessory that you wear

02:18:47   and then to not update the hardware for a long time

02:18:51   is, I don't know, I worry about that with the Apple Watch,

02:18:54   but I think it'll be all right in the long term.

02:18:57   Anyway.

02:18:58   - I think we're seeing a pattern that repeated

02:18:59   that started with the original iPhone where,

02:19:02   so the iPhone 3G did come out a year

02:19:05   after the original iPhone, but it was barely an upgrade.

02:19:09   I mean, it was really just the 3G.

02:19:11   And I always forget, there's something else.

02:19:13   Maybe it was like GPS.

02:19:14   - It had a GPS, yeah.

02:19:15   - Yeah, so it wasn't just the 3G,

02:19:18   but the 3G is the one that affected me on a daily basis.

02:19:20   Like, I just remember thinking like,

02:19:22   "Wow, I really hate the way this phone feels

02:19:25   "compared to my old one, but oh my God,

02:19:26   "3G is so much better than Edge."

02:19:29   But otherwise, they really didn't get

02:19:31   like a performance upgrade until the 3GS two years later.

02:19:34   And so it's looking like the performance,

02:19:36   the serious performance upgrade for the watch

02:19:38   come two years after the announcement, a year and a half after it was released.

02:19:44   I think ultimately what the Apple Watch needed from the beginning, and we're seeing some

02:19:50   of that now with OS 3, and we'll see what happens on the hardware side, what it needed

02:19:54   from the beginning was just like focus and editing.

02:19:56   You know, like at the beginning it was like, "Oh, I can do all these different things,

02:19:59   and we have this crazy gold version."

02:20:01   You know, the number of like rough edges that got sanded off, you know, as the product found

02:20:05   its place in the market. I think though like I don't know I mean you know you

02:20:12   and I are both watch nerds also and I I'm not sure that the right formula for

02:20:19   something that's supposed to be a mass-market watch is to have everybody

02:20:24   wearing the same shape the same looking rectangle with different bands like

02:20:29   physically I think there needs to be more variety in the physical attributes

02:20:35   of the watch itself, for that to succeed in that way,

02:20:37   if they want to, and they might not have a chance.

02:20:41   Like, fashion and watch nerds might just move too quickly

02:20:44   or be too picky, or, you know,

02:20:46   it just might not work for them,

02:20:48   but if they're gonna go for that, like,

02:20:51   high-end or even mid-range fashionable angle for this,

02:20:55   it needs more variety in the actual watch body.

02:20:59   - I don't know about that. - And that requires

02:21:00   a different kind of software focus that they're not taking,

02:21:03   so I'm guessing they're not going in that direction,

02:21:04   - Yeah, there doesn't seem to be anything in watchOS 3

02:21:06   that would hint at a circular face, for example.

02:21:09   - Yeah, or even just like, you know, maybe have,

02:21:11   maybe have like a passive mode, or some,

02:21:14   or where you're always showing something on screen,

02:21:16   or maybe have, maybe have some that are, maybe not round,

02:21:19   but like, maybe have like a thin model

02:21:21   that maybe doesn't have the heart rate tracker on the back.

02:21:23   If for people who don't want that, but want, you know,

02:21:25   a dressier version or something, like,

02:21:28   just having more hardware variety,

02:21:29   'cause like bands are nice, and they do make amazing bands.

02:21:33   Overall, Apple's watch bands are excellent.

02:21:35   And some of them, like the Link bracelet,

02:21:37   I think I've never seen anything better than that

02:21:39   in the rest of the watch world.

02:21:40   But, but like, there's still like,

02:21:44   you're still basically everyone's wearing the same watch.

02:21:47   And when it comes to fashion, the one thing,

02:21:49   I don't know a lot about fashion,

02:21:51   but the one thing I do know is that you don't wanna be

02:21:53   wearing literally the exact same thing

02:21:54   everybody else is wearing.

02:21:56   - Yeah.

02:21:57   - You want some kind of variety there,

02:21:58   some kind of individuality,

02:22:00   and putting on a different band is not enough.

02:22:02   That helps, it's better than nothing, but it's not enough.

02:22:04   - While at WWDC, I had a very enjoyable afternoon

02:22:09   with CGP Grey, a good friend of yours.

02:22:14   - That guy's an enigma.

02:22:16   - It was, it was funny.

02:22:17   I was gonna bring up coffee, but we met,

02:22:20   we started with coffee, and we met at Blue Bottle,

02:22:23   and it was very, very funny,

02:22:25   'cause I didn't know what he looked like.

02:22:27   It was like, "Oh, what about Blue Bottle?

02:22:29   "I'll meet you there, I need coffee."

02:22:30   And he's like, "I need coffee too."

02:22:31   So I got there and as right as I got to the line,

02:22:36   and the line was very long,

02:22:38   I mean like long even by blue bottle standards,

02:22:41   I got a DM from Gray that just said,

02:22:43   "No man should stand on the line this long."

02:22:45   And I turned around and there he was.

02:22:48   And it was exquisitely pulled in.

02:22:49   It was an amazing introduction 'cause he timed the text

02:22:53   and as soon as I turned around, there he was.

02:22:55   And I just said, "Yeah, this sucks, let's go to Pete's."

02:22:58   And he was like, "Fine."

02:22:59   And we just walked over to the,

02:23:01   I can't even tell you during WWDC how often that happens.

02:23:04   I like Blue Bottle, but I don't like Blue Bottle,

02:23:06   wait half an hour in line,

02:23:08   and then wait another 10 minutes for the drip.

02:23:11   - No, it is good coffee, but it's not that good.

02:23:13   It isn't good enough to wait on that line.

02:23:15   - So we got, you knew were there with me

02:23:17   the day of the keynote.

02:23:19   We went to Phil's, or Phil's E,

02:23:21   I don't know how you pronounce it.

02:23:21   - I think it's just Phil's.

02:23:22   I liked it, honestly.

02:23:23   I had a good cup of coffee there.

02:23:26   I would say that was the best cup of coffee

02:23:27   I had that week.

02:23:28   - Well, I also liked their system,

02:23:30   where you don't just order and then it goes in a queue.

02:23:33   It's like you wait for a barista to become available

02:23:36   and then you place your order and then they make your,

02:23:40   I always get drip coffee,

02:23:41   and then they make your drip coffee

02:23:43   and it takes like two or three minutes.

02:23:44   I got worried 'cause I skipped out of the keynote

02:23:47   about 20 minutes before it started

02:23:49   because they ran out of, they didn't have--

02:23:50   - It was like 10 minutes.

02:23:52   You were late, weren't you?

02:23:53   - No, I was there with plenty,

02:23:55   I was there with a couple minutes to spare.

02:23:56   So what happened is I got to the Bill Graham Center

02:23:59   at like 9.05 in the morning.

02:24:01   And I think they let people in before nine o'clock,

02:24:04   the press people at least.

02:24:05   And I got there at like 9.05, 9.10, I said hello,

02:24:08   I saw some people I knew and some Apple PR people

02:24:11   and said hello, hello, went over to the coffee

02:24:13   and it was all gone.

02:24:14   It was all gone at like 9.10.

02:24:17   And I was like, what the hell's going on?

02:24:19   And I went in and I found a seat and--

02:24:21   - I mean, granted, if that was the same coffee

02:24:24   they were serving outside on the line,

02:24:25   they were doing you a favor.

02:24:27   I guess, because it probably was the same coffee.

02:24:31   It just threw me off, because my normal way

02:24:34   is to go to Blue Bottle.

02:24:36   And then I go with my Blue Bottle,

02:24:38   and then go to Moscow-- when I used to be at Moscone--

02:24:40   and then go say hi to all my friends who

02:24:43   are waiting in line for the keynote while I've done it

02:24:46   to you.

02:24:47   Yes, every year.

02:24:49   You're waiting in line, and you've been up

02:24:51   since like 5 in the morning.

02:24:53   And I just woke up, and I have delicious coffee,

02:24:55   and I'm gonna use my magic press pass

02:24:57   to go right to the front of the line and get in.

02:24:59   - And get a front row seat.

02:25:00   - And I've always enjoyed that.

02:25:02   Well, I didn't know what to do this time.

02:25:03   I had to get a cab to get to the build,

02:25:06   I didn't have to get a cab,

02:25:07   but to get there as soon as I could, I wanted to get there.

02:25:10   So anyway, 20 of or so I told Ben, I was like,

02:25:12   "Screw this, I'm gonna go find coffee."

02:25:14   So I ran out of the building

02:25:15   and found the Phil Z about two blocks away.

02:25:18   And I didn't know anything about Phil Z

02:25:22   except I'd heard good things,

02:25:23   but I just wanted to drip coffee.

02:25:24   And Ben wanted one too.

02:25:26   So Ben didn't have the guts to go.

02:25:27   He just said, "Get me one."

02:25:29   And I saw that they were gonna make it pour over

02:25:32   and that they didn't have pre-made coffee

02:25:34   that they could just pour into a cup for me.

02:25:36   And I thought, oh, this, at Blue Bottle,

02:25:39   this would take too long.

02:25:40   I'd missed the opening of the keynote.

02:25:41   I said, "How long is this gonna take?"

02:25:42   And she goes, "Oh, just two or three minutes."

02:25:44   And two minutes later, I had my two coffees

02:25:46   and I was out the door.

02:25:48   Excellent.

02:25:51   I was so sad because I had just met Federico Vatici

02:25:55   late the night before.

02:25:57   And he's really into, he's Italian for one,

02:26:00   and he's really into coffee.

02:26:01   And so I had to have my first coffee with Federico Vatici

02:26:06   as the crappy coffee in the line at Bill Graham.

02:26:11   And I was like, I'm so sorry, I'm like,

02:26:13   we shouldn't really drink this, like please.

02:26:15   And to have that be the first coffee that I have

02:26:19   with Federico Vatici is just heartbreaking.

02:26:20   - Criminal.

02:26:21   - And so fortunately, we went with you after the keynote,

02:26:24   we met you outside and we went with you

02:26:26   and we went back to Pete's and got better coffee there.

02:26:28   - Phil Z we went to.

02:26:29   - Yeah, right, yeah, sorry, Phil Z, yeah.

02:26:32   And that was so much better, I feel like that made up for it

02:26:34   like I'm just gonna forget about the urn coffee

02:26:38   that we had in the line and just hope nobody

02:26:42   got a picture of it and, oh man, it was such a shame.

02:26:45   But you know, the Phil's or Phil Z actually made up for it

02:26:49   that was really good coffee and I had that for the line going back into the

02:26:52   State of the Union and that was like I feel like that was like the forgiveness

02:26:55   for the morning. I kind of can't believe how honest their system is like you go

02:27:00   to a barista you wait you wait till a barista calls you and it's sort of like

02:27:04   a barbershop system where you wait in line until a barista says okay I'm ready

02:27:08   next and then you go to the barista they make whatever you ordered then they call

02:27:12   your name when it's ready and they give you the drink you haven't paid for

02:27:15   anything yet. They just give you the drink and then you are—it's just on you to go

02:27:19   over to where the register is, which is separate, and then just tell them what's in the cup,

02:27:23   and then you pay what you owe them. I'm glad, because it seems like it makes it very efficient,

02:27:29   but it seems to rely on the honor policy to a degree that you don't really see in retail

02:27:35   places.

02:27:36   I'm also curious to hear if you get any flack about us talking up fills on this episode,

02:27:42   when I tweeted a few days back that Phil's was the best

02:27:46   cup of coffee I had in San Francisco that week,

02:27:49   I got a lot of responses that seemed to indicate

02:27:52   this is not a widespread opinion.

02:27:54   And that apparently Phil's is looked down upon

02:27:58   by a lot of coffee snobs in San Francisco.

02:28:00   And I gotta say, I only had one cup of coffee there

02:28:03   'cause it was only near Bill Graham.

02:28:06   I don't think there was one closer to where we were.

02:28:08   - Yeah, I don't think so either.

02:28:09   - I only had the one cup there,

02:28:11   But that one cup was definitely way better

02:28:14   than what I had at Blue Bottle,

02:28:16   what I had at other places, like way better.

02:28:18   - I'm not, I don't have the fine palette that you do,

02:28:21   but I had one, I think I only had one Blue Bottle this week

02:28:24   and it was good, but the combined experience was worse

02:28:27   because even in the best case scenario,

02:28:29   you have to wait so much longer.

02:28:30   - Right, I have never gone to Blue Bottle in San Francisco

02:28:33   and decided, you know what, that was worth it.

02:28:34   Because it's like, I always, you know, I try to go,

02:28:37   I try to go like before going to the first session

02:28:40   Moscone. And so I'm in kind of a rush and I never leave enough time when I wake up in

02:28:46   the morning because who wants to wake up earlier than you have to. So you know, it's certainly

02:28:49   not us.

02:28:50   So like, you know, I go down the blue bottle, there's this huge line, I'm like, "Oh, you

02:28:53   got to be kidding me." I wait in the line, I wait, I wait, I wait. Eventually I get the

02:28:57   coffee after way too long and I'm sitting there and then I had like, you know, something

02:29:00   cost fallacy halfway through the line like, "God, I really, this is, I'm going to be late

02:29:04   to the session, I'm going to miss the first 20 minutes of it if I wait in this line, but

02:29:07   I've already weighed on this line for the last 15 minutes. It seems like I'm getting close to the beginning, you know

02:29:11   So all the all those fallacies and stresses finally get the coffee and then I have a problem on my hands because now I have this

02:29:19   Huge full cup of very very hot liquid. They don't double cup there the best you could

02:29:25   They don't have those little jackets

02:29:27   The best you can do is wrap a napkin around to try to insulate your hand from this scorching hot cup of coffee that

02:29:33   Like I saw then I have to walk from there to Moscone which is you know a medium walk a few blocks

02:29:39   Trying to spill this coffee on my hand or anywhere else as I'm walking with it

02:29:43   But it's way too hot to begin drinking

02:29:45   then I finally get to Moscone and I have again this

02:29:48   giant cup of hot liquid that I have to just like still be carrying with me and doing something with

02:29:52   Until I finally go into a session at which point there's nowhere to put it in the session

02:29:56   You know, you can put it on the floor

02:29:58   But that's a big risk getting kicked over and you don't want to be that guy who spills hot coffee on the on the rug

02:30:03   in Moscone. So like you're basically left like holding this thing for like the

02:30:07   next half hour as it cools down to a drinkable temperature and then you have

02:30:11   this giant cup of coffee that you basically have to finish and usually

02:30:14   that's too much caffeine for me even at even their small size usually I only

02:30:17   drink like two-thirds of it but I feel kind of pressured to finish the whole

02:30:20   thing is like well I have nowhere to put this then I'm like buzzed over the whole

02:30:23   person it's just every time I say you know what that wasn't worth it next time

02:30:28   I should just either like you know grab an espresso somewhere you know anywhere

02:30:32   anywhere can serve a reasonable espresso in that area. So like, just grab a quick espresso,

02:30:37   or just tolerate the Moscone coffee, or just drink tea. Every time I think that, and every

02:30:42   time I forget to do it the next time.

02:30:44   John Greenewald They need those things that Gray and Brady

02:30:47   are always talking about, the hot stoppers. Isn't that what they call them?

02:30:49   Ben de la Torre Yeah, that would solve one of those problems.

02:30:51   John Greenewald It would solve the travel problem.

02:30:52   Ben de la Torre Yes, but that's it.

02:30:53   John Greenewald Philz gives out hot stoppers because there

02:30:55   was, I actually kind of jogged back from Philz to the keynote with two coffees. And so without

02:31:01   hot stoppers I would have two mangled scarred hands anyway but you would have

02:31:07   good coffee though the whole reason I brought or was reminded to mention gray

02:31:11   was I know one of his pet bugaboos with the watch as he wants third-party watch

02:31:17   faces yeah I love that I broke it to him and I'm gonna break it to you that that

02:31:21   is never gonna happen it is not gonna happen and this is gonna make sense to

02:31:26   you and it made sense to Gray but it's this weird crevice that Apple and only

02:31:31   Apple is in in the smartwatch world where they do fancying themselves to be

02:31:37   a real watch company and as a real watch company they have there's certain things

02:31:44   that everything anything that you can see is always going to be San Francisco

02:31:47   now they could maybe enforce that for third parties possibly any analog dial

02:31:53   is going to use those hands. That's the Apple style of watch hands.

02:31:58   The big ovals. I don't know what you call them, but those big ovals, the

02:32:02   capsule-shaped hands. I guess they're... are they? Yeah, they are ovals. Yeah.

02:32:06   Yeah. And, you know, in the real world, high-end watch companies

02:32:12   typically have things like that, like the hands on a Rolex. They're not all

02:32:16   identical. There might be like two or three different styles of Rolex hands,

02:32:19   but they're all Rolexes are have hands that are instantly recognizable as Rolex hands.

02:32:25   Yeah, they're kind of all like in a family.

02:32:27   Yeah, in a family. And the dials are all unmistakably Rolex style dials. And insert

02:32:35   name of your favorite high-end watch company here. And those things are true for all of them,

02:32:41   because anybody if it wasn't true for them, they wouldn't be a high-end watch company.

02:32:44   And Apple fancies itself a high-end watch company and therefore,

02:32:47   And if you look at all of their dials, other than the Mickey one, which is sort of an exception,

02:32:52   the Mickey ones are a little different.

02:32:57   They're unmistakably Apple watchy.

02:32:59   There's an Apple watchiness to all of their analog ones and the digital ones too.

02:33:05   So therefore there's no way they're going to open that up to third parties and have

02:33:08   people making watches that look like, I don't know, Omegas or something like that.

02:33:14   It's never going to happen.

02:33:15   - There's so many, yeah, I mean,

02:33:17   there's the intellectual property infringement problem.

02:33:20   And if you look at other smartwatch platforms,

02:33:22   you know, Pebble, Android, like, they do have this problem

02:33:24   where there are tons of, like, knockoff faces

02:33:28   of, like, popular watch brands.

02:33:29   Like, there's just copyright and trademark infringement

02:33:32   all over the place.

02:33:32   Like, it's a mess.

02:33:34   And so, of course, Apple wouldn't want that,

02:33:35   and certainly wouldn't want the liability

02:33:37   of dealing with that, nor the kind of, like,

02:33:38   you know, lowbrow nature of that.

02:33:40   But also, you know, technically speaking,

02:33:42   I think there's a lot of technical reasons

02:33:44   why Apple would want to control the face app.

02:33:47   And they could overcome these barriers

02:33:50   if they really wanted to.

02:33:50   They could make like, basically like a watch face kit

02:33:54   and have you kind of like supply certain custom behaviors

02:33:58   or certain graphics or whatever else

02:34:00   but have them kind of still run the code.

02:34:02   They could do a system like that if they wanted to.

02:34:05   But I think they don't want to for these reasons.

02:34:07   And I think you're right

02:34:08   that we're probably never gonna get that.

02:34:09   And honestly, the reason I want it is completely selfish.

02:34:13   The reason I want it is because I want to design my own watch face is because I'm a huge like watch face design critic nerd.

02:34:20   Like, I nitpick every watch face I see and there are very few that I'm happy with.

02:34:25   And even the ones I'm happy with I'm usually like only mostly happy with because I'm that kind of nerd.

02:34:30   And I think you are probably similar in that regard. Is that safe?

02:34:34   Yeah, there's watches that I like except I find if I find that the hour hand is just too close to the size of the minute hand, it's out.

02:34:42   (laughing)

02:34:43   - Yeah, I mean like, yeah, 'cause that's legitimate.

02:34:46   That impacts legibility of telling the time quickly.

02:34:48   - Yeah, and, or vice versa.

02:34:50   Maybe the hour hand strikes me as too small.

02:34:52   Now there's, it's, there's no confusion,

02:34:55   but to me it just looks ungainly.

02:34:58   - Right. - Has to be in proportion.

02:34:59   - And I'm in trouble with watch faces

02:35:01   because I've been affected by,

02:35:03   I've been bitten by the like,

02:35:05   getting annoyed by poor placement of date windows bug.

02:35:09   - Yeah. - Where like,

02:35:10   There's like this design virus

02:35:13   destroying the watch industry right now

02:35:14   'cause everyone's putting date windows all over the place

02:35:16   'cause it turns out most people who buy a watch

02:35:18   want to have the date on it somewhere.

02:35:20   And so you have to kind of like shove it somewhere

02:35:22   on the dial and there's lots of easy

02:35:25   but bad places to do it.

02:35:26   Like oh, we'll just cut the three in half

02:35:28   and kind of stick it there.

02:35:30   Or we're gonna stick it diagonally

02:35:31   between the four and the five and it's like,

02:35:33   oh, it just looks so bad.

02:35:35   - I'm picky about things like that,

02:35:37   But the date complication in particular,

02:35:41   you opened my eyes to the fact

02:35:43   that there's a lot of watches coming out

02:35:44   where it's in a bad place.

02:35:45   And then once you start looking for it, you see it.

02:35:47   And I think one of the reasons why is the,

02:35:50   so many watches don't make their own movements.

02:35:54   And so they're using like an ETA movement

02:35:57   or the Japanese company now that ETA isn't really

02:36:01   selling their movements on the open market.

02:36:04   But if you're limited by what you can do

02:36:07   to the standard movement, you're limited in certain ways

02:36:10   as to where the date can go,

02:36:11   and all of a sudden it just sticks out like,

02:36:13   well, they didn't wanna put the date there,

02:36:15   but they had to, and you can just see it.

02:36:17   - Yeah.

02:36:19   - It bothers me.

02:36:21   - So many otherwise great watch face designs

02:36:23   are ruined by a bad date window.

02:36:25   - Yeah.

02:36:26   Anything else you wanted to talk about this week?

02:36:27   What else do you have on the list?

02:36:29   - I mean, we've definitely lost all the listeners

02:36:31   talking about watch design, so don't worry.

02:36:33   Everyone's gone. - No, I don't think so.

02:36:34   I think it ties in with watchOS 3.

02:36:36   I really do.

02:36:37   - I bet you have just lost more listeners

02:36:39   during the last five minutes than you lose

02:36:40   when you talk about baseball.

02:36:42   (laughing)

02:36:44   - I don't wanna talk about the podcast thing

02:36:46   with the midroll.

02:36:47   - Nah, it's too late.

02:36:48   - Too late.

02:36:48   I don't wanna talk about it.

02:36:51   What about this car shifter thing?

02:36:52   Do you see that?

02:36:53   - I know the story, I know the whole recall thing.

02:36:56   I have not actually seen the shifter,

02:36:58   but I saw all the anecdotes of the complaints

02:37:01   people had filed about like you know this this exact model of car or you know

02:37:05   something with the same shit like this it started rolling backwards when I got

02:37:09   out because I thought it was in park and I guess it shifts itself into neutral or

02:37:12   something. I've never seen a car like this before I don't I guess I don't find

02:37:15   myself in new cars all that often but it so the the car so the terrible traffic

02:37:20   a picture of it this Anton Yelchin the guy who played Chekhov in the new Star

02:37:24   Trek movies died in a terrible freak accident where is his Jeep Cherokee he

02:37:30   got out of it, he thought he had it in park, apparently got out of it and it was in either

02:37:35   in neutral or reverse and ran down the hill and pinned him against his own gate and he

02:37:40   got killed. The design of this shifter is so bad. It just goes up and down. It's like

02:37:44   a paddle. Think of it like a paddle shifter. So like if you're like in different mode,

02:37:49   just kind of like, you know, up, up, up, down, down, that kind of thing. Yeah, it's exactly,

02:37:52   it's like thinking of like it's so it's like you just hit up three times to put it in park,

02:37:57   but if you hit up two times, you're in neutral.

02:37:59   Or maybe it's like how hard you press it or something.

02:38:01   But you're not actually moving it and clicking it

02:38:04   into these positions like you do on a traditional one.

02:38:06   And so it's so easy, I just cannot believe

02:38:09   that this design shipped because I think I would see

02:38:14   what a problem this design is, even without having

02:38:17   the benefit of this tragic news story to put it in context.

02:38:20   Because it just seems to me like this is a design

02:38:23   where you have to be paying very close attention

02:38:25   to the indicator light of what gear you're on.

02:38:27   Whereas with the traditional one, I don't even look.

02:38:31   I just hit the brake, push all the way up,

02:38:34   and I know I'm in park.

02:38:35   I can absolutely, with 100% certainty,

02:38:38   put my car into park every single time blindfolded.

02:38:42   - Right, I mean, this is, I think,

02:38:45   I've seen in a lot of cars recently,

02:38:47   especially higher-end cars and newer cars,

02:38:49   a lot of the makers are kind of playing

02:38:51   with the shifter lever and redesigning them

02:38:53   different ways to make them electronically control

02:38:55   instead of a direct linkage.

02:38:58   And I apologize in advance to John Siracusa

02:39:01   for getting any of this wrong

02:39:02   'cause he's way more of a car nerd than I am.

02:39:04   But basically everyone is messing with the shifter design

02:39:07   and the parking brake designs.

02:39:10   And there's so many of them are electronic now

02:39:11   and so they have these weird controls

02:39:13   that are of poor design.

02:39:16   The good ones I've seen, it's weird at first to get used to,

02:39:20   but it's actually better long-term,

02:39:22   which is like the BMW ones,

02:39:25   park is a button on top of the shifter.

02:39:28   So the shifter moving up and down

02:39:29   switches you between reverse neutral drive,

02:39:31   but if you wanna put it in park,

02:39:32   it's actually a button on top.

02:39:33   So you can't, it's very clear

02:39:36   which one of those things you're doing.

02:39:37   Tesla's the same way, where Tesla, it's a column shifter,

02:39:40   which this is the first time I've ever had a column shifter,

02:39:43   but I got used to it pretty quick

02:39:45   because it's like down is drive,

02:39:47   and then there's a button on the end to hit it for park,

02:39:49   and you have to hit that button every time.

02:39:50   and the physical action of pushing that button in

02:39:55   is nothing like any other operation on that lever.

02:39:57   So you're very unlikely to accidentally do it.

02:40:00   - Right, whereas on this Jeep design,

02:40:03   putting it in park is just pushing a little bit long,

02:40:06   either, I'm not quite sure if it's how long you press up

02:40:08   or how many times you press up,

02:40:10   but it's only ever so slightly different

02:40:12   than putting it into neutral.

02:40:13   And I'm laughing, and it's terrible that this guy died

02:40:16   and that other people have obviously been hurt too

02:40:18   because there's a product recall.

02:40:20   But it's just mind-boggling that you would make

02:40:23   putting it in park something that's hard to distinguish.

02:40:26   - Yeah, I mean, it's, the bad design that goes into

02:40:31   car interiors and that actually ships in car interiors

02:40:35   boggles my mind.

02:40:36   Like, there's so, and this is like way worse

02:40:39   than date windows on watches.

02:40:40   There is so much horrible design in car interiors

02:40:44   and the controls in car interiors these days.

02:40:46   - I don't think anybody's ever been killed

02:40:48   by a poor placement of a date window on a watch dial?

02:40:50   - Probably not.

02:40:52   It's horrible, 'cause you know, as we see with this,

02:40:57   design flaws in cars, that can cause

02:41:01   actually fatal consequences.

02:41:03   That can actually get people killed,

02:41:04   and often they do actually get people killed.

02:41:07   And it's, they gotta take design seriously,

02:41:10   and when you have something like this,

02:41:11   it's like, does anybody actually think about this?

02:41:14   Do they do any testing?

02:41:15   I mean, like, ah, it's just a tragedy.

02:41:18   - Yeah, I do see the origins of why they would ship

02:41:23   this horrible design was just the basic idea of,

02:41:25   we wanna switch to an electronic system

02:41:28   instead of a analog system of where this is.

02:41:32   But, so okay, there's the why,

02:41:34   but this was not the answer.

02:41:36   This is terrible.

02:41:38   Anything else?

02:41:41   - No, I think that's it.

02:41:41   we've definitely put most of the audience to sleep

02:41:45   or lost them in the watch discussion.

02:41:47   - I don't think so.

02:41:48   I think people are gonna love the watch discussion.

02:41:50   All right, well, we are under three hours,

02:41:52   so that's exactly as predicted.

02:41:54   I wanna thank our sponsors in reverse order,

02:41:56   Ministry of Supply, Audible, and Wealthfront.

02:42:01   And I wanna thank you, Marco Arment,

02:42:04   your podcast, Accidental Tech Podcast, is at ATP.fm.

02:42:09   You've also got, what else do you got?

02:42:11   I got more podcasts now.

02:42:12   - I got Under the Radar with _DavidSmith,

02:42:14   relay.fm/radar, Top Four with my wife,

02:42:17   relay.fm/topfour.

02:42:19   - The wonderful Tiff Arment.

02:42:21   - Yeah, she's the best.

02:42:23   - Do you feel bad with the developer one

02:42:26   where _ was totally up to date and knew all the APIs

02:42:29   by Tuesday of WWDC week?

02:42:31   Or do you just feel like, no, this is great,

02:42:35   _ will fill me in on what I need to know?

02:42:38   - Basically the latter.

02:42:39   When you first become friends with Underscore,

02:42:42   if you're a developer, you just feel incredibly lazy

02:42:45   and inadequate by comparison.

02:42:46   You're like, my God, what I did during this time

02:42:49   was have a steak and edit a few photos and go to sleep.

02:42:54   And what he did during this time was make four new apps

02:42:57   and learn everything about all the APIs.

02:42:59   And yeah, you definitely feel like, wow,

02:43:02   I waste a lot of time compared to this guy.

02:43:03   - He runs at a higher metabolism, clearly.

02:43:05   We ran into him on Sunday, the first day we were out

02:43:08   for WWDC and me and Amy and Paul,

02:43:12   friend of the show Paul Kufasos,

02:43:16   walked over to the Bill Graham Center

02:43:18   so I could get my credentials and stuff.

02:43:20   And we ran into Underscore on the way.

02:43:22   We ran into a bunch, it was amazing,

02:43:23   we ran into so many people on the way.

02:43:25   Underscore is there, we're all freezing.

02:43:27   It is like 61 degrees and windy

02:43:29   and everybody is just frozen to bone.

02:43:31   Underscore is wearing shorts and a t-shirt

02:43:32   and looks totally comfortable.

02:43:35   - Yeah, I mean, no, he's,

02:43:36   The frustrating thing about Underscore is that he's just a really great person and there's

02:43:41   basically no downsides.

02:43:45   When somebody's super together in life, it's tempting to think, "Man, at least they're

02:43:51   a jerk or something."

02:43:52   You try to find something that makes you feel less bad about how you are less productive

02:43:57   than them or something.

02:43:58   With him, you just can't find that because he is just a really good guy.

02:44:02   He's also very productive and it's very frustrating.

02:44:05   The other thing that killed me is he was wearing a really big backpack.

02:44:07   And so it looked like it was, you know, it was like,

02:44:10   why are you wearing a big backpack? And it turns out that that was,

02:44:12   it actually wasn't a really big backpack. It was a really small, uh,

02:44:16   this is everything he had for the entire week. Like he is,

02:44:20   he was just getting at, he hadn't checked into his hotel yet.

02:44:23   So like everything he brought for an entire week in San Francisco was in the,

02:44:28   you know, when I was thinking of just walking around for the afternoon,

02:44:32   look like a very big backpack. When it realized that it was everything he had for the week,

02:44:36   it's like, "I cannot believe how efficient he is. He's got to know one of those secret

02:44:40   techniques for folding t-shirts or something."

02:44:42   Marc Thiessen Yeah, we all have a lot to learn from him.

02:44:45   Dave Asprey All right, thank you, Marco.

02:44:47   Marc Thiessen Thanks.

02:44:47   [