The Talk Show

138: ‘I’ve Been Using Mine More in Bed’ With Joanna Stern


00:00:00   [MUSIC PLAYING]

00:00:03   A couple of weeks ago, a longtime sponsor of the show

00:00:09   Casper, the people who sell mattresses, they had a spot.

00:00:12   And when I read their URL, I said that their domain name

00:00:16   was caspersleep.com, which is what it used to be,

00:00:20   and which in fact still does redirect.

00:00:23   But their new URL is casper.com.

00:00:26   When I did that, they sent a nice little note,

00:00:29   and it was very friendly and it was like,

00:00:30   hey, you know, that used to be our URL,

00:00:32   but we sprung for just playing casper.com

00:00:35   and the next time we have a spot run,

00:00:38   you know, please use that one instead.

00:00:40   And last week they had another spot in the show

00:00:45   and like a dummy, I once again said on the air,

00:00:49   go to caspersleep.com/talkshow.

00:00:52   And they sent me a very nice email.

00:00:55   That was so nice that I thought I should,

00:00:58   right here at the front of the show, just put a little insert here and just tell you

00:01:00   if you're in the market for a mattress and you want to go there, go to casper.com

00:01:07   c-a-s-p-e-r/talkshow, casper.com/talkshow. My thanks to them for their patience with me and

00:01:19   now on with the show.

00:01:27   Joanna, how are you? It's been a while, I think.

00:01:29   It has been a while. But you hear no sirens. And no dog. Unlike my last appearance on this show.

00:01:37   Is that the last appearance? I think so. Yes, it was definitely the sirens. Definitely very,

00:01:44   very angry, angry, angry listeners about the sirens.

00:01:47   It has. Yeah. It has been a very Joanna Stern year in technology. Don't you think?

00:01:56   Yeah, just all the time. They released me like 10 times. Well, but stern s, I what I mean by that

00:02:04   is that to me, you are one of the most obsessed in our racket with, you know, laptop keyboards and

00:02:15   tablets and you know, where are portable computers going? And it's been what a crazy year, right?

00:02:26   - Right.

00:02:27   - Insane, and actually just had a conversation

00:02:29   with my editor about my column next week.

00:02:31   I think I've actually ditched the entire idea

00:02:33   'cause it's too hard.

00:02:35   I hate to say that I'm ditching something

00:02:36   'cause it's too hard, but like,

00:02:38   trying to tell someone what to buy right now,

00:02:42   it's just, it's too hard.

00:02:44   It's just too hard. - Maybe,

00:02:47   maybe that's the angle to take though,

00:02:48   is to talk about how you can't really say

00:02:50   here's what you should buy because it's too hard.

00:02:53   - It really is too hard.

00:02:55   Well, I don't know, I should probably not talk about

00:02:57   what my idea was 'cause someone listening

00:02:59   will just do it better than me.

00:03:00   But my idea was I wanted to make a form or a chart

00:03:05   where it's like you just go in, you tell it,

00:03:09   this is what I want, this is what I want the computer to do,

00:03:11   this is how I use my computer,

00:03:13   this is the operating system I want,

00:03:15   and then it tells you what to get.

00:03:16   But making that's really, really hard.

00:03:20   - The matrix has gotten very complicated.

00:03:23   So you could have been on it

00:03:24   and we've been trying to work out a time

00:03:27   it works for you to be on the show.

00:03:29   At any point in the last two or three months

00:03:32   to talk about the iPad Pro

00:03:33   or to talk about the Surface Book

00:03:37   and the Surface Pro 4 and all the keyboards and et cetera.

00:03:41   But now we can just talk about them all at once.

00:03:43   - And yeah, and there was an iPhone before that.

00:03:46   - Right. - And then,

00:03:48   what have I been doing with myself?

00:03:49   There's just been a lot of reviews, a lot of products.

00:03:52   Good products, some not so good, but really interesting.

00:03:56   - I saw-- - That's how I'm gonna

00:03:58   summarize this year.

00:04:00   - I saw a thing, and I didn't see the breakdown,

00:04:02   maybe you did, but I saw a thing where every year

00:04:05   there's the, with the Black Friday

00:04:08   and the whole opening of the holiday shopping season,

00:04:11   that 64% of the online purchases over the weekend

00:04:16   were done on a mobile device.

00:04:21   - Yeah, I saw that too. - Which is kind of astounding.

00:04:24   The thing I don't know is what are they calling

00:04:26   a mobile device?

00:04:28   Does that include tablets or is that, is it only phones?

00:04:32   - Don't they usually break down by operating system?

00:04:35   - I guess so. - Like how they look at it.

00:04:36   - But isn't that, like, I've been thinking about this

00:04:39   for years, but I feel like part of what makes this year,

00:04:42   what 2015's so interesting is that doing it

00:04:45   by operating system really doesn't make sense anymore.

00:04:48   - True, very true.

00:04:50   I mean, Windows, like, right, someone could be on their Windows phone, and they're actually

00:04:55   on or they it says Windows 10. And they could be on like a 50 foot desktop. Right. And conversely,

00:05:03   does that right and conversely, the the on the Apple side, the iPad Pro is going to qualify

00:05:13   by OS as a mobile device, but it's and by some definition, it is certainly mobile where

00:05:19   where you're certainly using it without any,

00:05:22   you're not connected to power or anything like that,

00:05:25   you don't have to be.

00:05:26   But it's meant to be used on a desk of some sort,

00:05:32   or at least on your lap, it's not like a handheld device.

00:05:35   - Right, right.

00:05:36   I've been using mine more and more in bed.

00:05:39   We've pretty much watched all of Jane the Virgin

00:05:47   on the iPad Pro.

00:05:49   It's really, really interesting as a TV.

00:05:53   - Yeah, and the last two trips that I've taken,

00:05:56   I took my air, I have this problem

00:05:59   where I just have to take the air, it makes me feel better.

00:06:01   But I pretty much only used the Pro.

00:06:03   That's the difference between when you review something

00:06:07   for a week and then you really start using it.

00:06:10   As a travel device, it's really good.

00:06:14   'Cause as much as it gets kinda crazy

00:06:19   you're just like kind of it is the top of the laptop screen like just taking

00:06:23   that off and having the screen without the keyboard to watch Netflix is is huge

00:06:27   yeah and the screen is like 90 times better than my my air so alright let's

00:06:34   keep going with it let's keep going with talking about the iPad Pro and we'll get

00:06:38   to the other devices in due time I have found and it's one of the little things

00:06:45   that it really makes a huge difference between the, and I know you mentioned

00:06:50   this in your iPad Pro review for the for the journal, if you just look at the

00:06:55   numbers 9.7 inch for the standard iPad size to 12 point whatever inches this

00:07:02   one is, it doesn't sound like a lot for some reason in my brain, but in practice

00:07:06   it's a tremendous difference. Yeah it's giant. And one of the things, and I don't

00:07:11   I don't think I, it's like you just said,

00:07:14   it's sometimes it's so hard in one week,

00:07:16   the one week you get between when you get a review unit

00:07:19   and when the reviews come out,

00:07:20   it's hard to cover all the bases.

00:07:21   But, and I've heard this from a lot of people who,

00:07:26   readers of "Daring Fireball" that it's a huge, huge deal

00:07:30   for anybody who deals with actual documents.

00:07:32   Like, I know lawyers, for example,

00:07:35   everything they do is like eight and a half by 11

00:07:37   pieces of paper.

00:07:38   And I've also heard from some people in education

00:07:42   that for teachers, it's a huge deal.

00:07:45   If you have students submitting work

00:07:48   in any kind of word processing document where it's a page,

00:07:51   now they can read them right there on the iPad

00:07:55   and it's not tiny.

00:07:56   It's like the size it's supposed to be.

00:07:58   And what I've done,

00:07:59   I haven't been into comic books in years,

00:08:01   but I started reading comic books on it

00:08:05   and it's all the difference in the world.

00:08:08   I can, one of the reasons I never really got into reading comic books on iPads before is

00:08:12   it was just too small.

00:08:14   And now, I saw it, Andy and Atko even tweeted a picture of it.

00:08:18   It's just like side by side with like an actual comic book.

00:08:21   It's like the actual size.

00:08:23   It's absolutely standard size for a comic book.

00:08:26   But it, and TV I think is a similar type thing where it, like, laying in bed or sitting on

00:08:33   a chair somewhere and just having it right in front of you, it fills your field of vision

00:08:38   in a way that the iPad didn't before.

00:08:41   Yeah, and definitely for sharing a viewing experience, it's great. That's where I did

00:08:48   feel like the iPad would be small, is like if you're watching a video with somebody,

00:08:54   especially on an airplane when you're both trying to watch the iPad and you've got the

00:08:57   middle seat bar between you and, you know, it's just been great for watching Netflix

00:09:06   together.

00:09:07   So that should be their next ad.

00:09:09   It should just be like a shot of two people watching Netflix on the iPad and really close

00:09:15   together.

00:09:16   Maybe they're not going to hire me for marketing.

00:09:20   [laughter]

00:09:21   >> It seems like a perfect ad.

00:09:23   It does.

00:09:24   Didn't they have one like that with music?

00:09:26   I seem to recall that there was an Apple ad that involved some sort of romantic moment

00:09:33   where it was, I don't know, like teenagers, but they were sharing their headphones, you

00:09:38   know, their earbuds.

00:09:39   Yeah.

00:09:40   And no, and the tagline is Netflix and chill.

00:09:43   Well, I don't think Apple's gonna put Netflix and chill in there.

00:09:46   I think that's what Apple's gonna do.

00:09:48   Just put it right across the center of the ad.

00:09:51   Although I guess they sort of have a non contentious relationship with Netflix, so who knows?

00:10:00   Only semi-competitive.

00:10:01   This is such a good ad.

00:10:04   But maybe it's also a better ad for the smaller iPads, because if that's what you're really

00:10:08   after, you're watching a movie and you're trying to get closer, you probably want the

00:10:12   smaller iPad so you can get closer together.

00:10:16   I've gone too far with this.

00:10:18   (both laughing)

00:10:21   So you still, but you still take your MacBook Air

00:10:26   everywhere you go.

00:10:27   - Yeah, yeah, it's, I mean,

00:10:30   God, my air is really a piece of shit now too.

00:10:32   I'm like looking at it and there's crumbs stuck in the,

00:10:36   between the bezel, like on the,

00:10:37   right underneath the O in the MacBook.

00:10:41   The first O, not the second.

00:10:42   There's just like, I think it's a piece of bread.

00:10:46   - Yeah, it's really, I went to Potbelly for lunch,

00:10:50   so it's probably whole wheat bread.

00:10:53   Anyway, yes, I take it because I don't know why I take it.

00:10:59   I mean, there are certain apps that I use,

00:11:01   there really are not even some certain apps.

00:11:03   Photoshop I use during the day.

00:11:05   Sometimes I do some video editing and stuff like that.

00:11:10   I think it mostly comes down to the multitasking.

00:11:12   I think, you know, a reader asked me today on Twitter,

00:11:17   he was trying to decide between the iPad Pro and the MacBook Air.

00:11:20   And I really think it just comes down to two things.

00:11:24   It's not power.

00:11:25   I mean, it's certainly not power.

00:11:28   It's not screen, cuz the Pro kills it on screen and all these other things.

00:11:33   I think it comes down to peripherals and multitasking.

00:11:35   What do you think?

00:11:39   Is there something I'm missing?

00:11:42   - Yeah, no, I think that covers it.

00:11:46   Well, and then the only other thing I can think of

00:11:49   that's a big ticket, like this might be the primary reason

00:11:53   that you decide would be are there apps that only exist

00:11:58   on one or the other OS?

00:12:01   - Right.

00:12:01   - And there are some that are many, in fact,

00:12:06   that exist on both.

00:12:07   There's all sorts of writing apps, for example,

00:12:09   that have clients for both platforms,

00:12:14   so you don't have to decide.

00:12:16   There are other things that are either Mac only,

00:12:19   or now there's a lot of apps that are iPad only.

00:12:22   So if you feel like you need one of those,

00:12:26   then your decision's made for you.

00:12:28   - Yeah, I mean, the file system is another really big one.

00:12:31   I guess that would be the third big thing,

00:12:33   and I kinda consider that under multitasking,

00:12:35   which is not part of it,

00:12:36   But I just deal with lots of different files and here,

00:12:40   people send Word documents unfortunately, and they're marked up.

00:12:44   And you gotta download them, and you gotta look at them, and

00:12:46   then you gotta reattach them.

00:12:47   And that's still a place where the iPad is just not,

00:12:50   in trying to make it simpler, sometimes it's just really hard.

00:12:55   I actually wrote about it in the review, or I don't know if the whole thing came

00:12:58   in, but I was just trying to get a PDF from one app to another.

00:13:04   and just can't really do it, right?

00:13:06   There's no central file to put something in.

00:13:10   You can put it in iCloud Drive,

00:13:12   but yeah, I just don't like to go there.

00:13:16   - Yeah, and not every app supports it,

00:13:17   depends where you, you know.

00:13:19   - Right. - And it's the same

00:13:20   with Dropbox, where there are definitely some apps

00:13:22   that you can, you know, use app A for this

00:13:26   and send a thing from app B by putting it in your Dropbox,

00:13:29   and both apps have Dropbox integration,

00:13:31   But you really, you can't count on it across all apps.

00:13:35   - Right, and you have to like hope that the share system

00:13:38   works well in that app to then bring it to the other app.

00:13:41   They were Adobe apps that I was using.

00:13:46   - Whereas on the Mac, you would be shocked.

00:13:51   I would be, and in fact, it would instantly make me,

00:13:54   any app that I use on a regular basis,

00:13:56   what I'm about to say would work.

00:13:58   And if I was trying a new app and this didn't work,

00:14:02   it would almost certainly make me think this app is a piece of junk

00:14:05   and I'm not even going to spend any more time in it, which

00:14:08   is if I'm in a context where I want to add a JPEG, it doesn't matter.

00:14:14   Is it an email attachment?

00:14:15   I just want to send it to you.

00:14:16   I'm using a chat app.

00:14:17   I want to send you this picture.

00:14:19   I want to add it to a document where I know the document can--

00:14:22   you can add images to the document.

00:14:24   I would just take it from the finder where I see the image

00:14:28   and drag it over and drop it in.

00:14:30   And it works everywhere.

00:14:32   And it's worked like that since, I don't know, 1984,

00:14:36   where you just drag stuff where you want it to go.

00:14:39   And it's still crazy to me.

00:14:42   And it's one of those things where I feel like

00:14:43   I'm speaking a second language

00:14:46   when I'm trying to work in iOS,

00:14:48   which is that drag and drop isn't really even a thing there.

00:14:52   - Right, yeah, no, I mean, like on Tuesdays,

00:14:55   which is like my big file column video day,

00:14:58   My entire desktop is a mess and it's like my worst nightmare when I go to someone's

00:15:03   computer and see like just billions of files all over their desktop.

00:15:07   And then I always clean it up, I always clean it up Tuesday night.

00:15:11   But the reason that is, is just like it's the easy, you know, I put something there,

00:15:15   then I drag it to Dropbox and I send it to my video editor.

00:15:18   I pull down one file, I edit it from a print editor, I then send it right back, attach

00:15:25   to put it into Gmail, drag it into Gmail.

00:15:27   Yeah, I mean, I think it's things like that,

00:15:32   those sort of like, and I hate to say

00:15:34   'cause I think those are the things that make me old.

00:15:38   Like I worry that these are the things

00:15:40   that I'm gonna be that old person that's like,

00:15:42   well, this is why I can't recommend this

00:15:45   because it doesn't have a USB port,

00:15:48   or something like that where I feel like,

00:15:51   I feel old when I say these things,

00:15:53   but you get in these routines of how you work.

00:15:55   - I feel the exact same way

00:15:58   where I don't want to be curmudgeonly that way.

00:16:02   And I see it from the feedback I get from readers

00:16:06   where some of them are, I don't wanna say angry,

00:16:10   but they seem to be frustrated with the whole,

00:16:13   hey, maybe you can, you know,

00:16:15   for some people you might be able

00:16:16   to really just work on an iPad Pro.

00:16:19   And they reject it and they're like,

00:16:20   and they say, "How can you work if you can't do XYZ?"

00:16:25   And what I see them doing is they're projecting,

00:16:29   "I can't work with XYZ."

00:16:31   And I actually believe them.

00:16:32   I believe them that this is important.

00:16:35   And there are definitely some tasks

00:16:37   where you really want to be able to access,

00:16:40   have something like the Finder,

00:16:41   where you can have just an arbitrary list of files

00:16:44   of any type and just drag them.

00:16:47   But you're crazy if you don't think

00:16:50   that there's a lot of people who don't need that,

00:16:52   whose workflow doesn't involve files

00:16:55   and the file system at all.

00:16:57   - And I think that's where I see like,

00:16:58   there are some days where I don't need that.

00:17:02   And you know, that's what a majority of users,

00:17:06   or I can't say percentages, but many people, like you said,

00:17:10   don't need some of these things.

00:17:12   And that's where I think, you know,

00:17:14   and I think I go back a little bit

00:17:16   into what I wrote in my pro review.

00:17:19   It certainly feels right now it's a niche product.

00:17:23   Maybe it isn't.

00:17:24   Maybe it really does have more appeal at this point

00:17:29   than I think, I don't know,

00:17:31   I didn't even get specific on it,

00:17:32   but maybe it has much more appeal than I thought right now,

00:17:36   'cause more and more people ask me about it,

00:17:38   and when I'm sort of trying to guide them

00:17:40   between getting a laptop and the Pro,

00:17:41   it ends up saying, yeah, the Pro is actually gonna be

00:17:45   perfectly great for what you need,

00:17:47   and oh, you don't have an iPad,

00:17:48   or you haven't updated your iPad in years,

00:17:50   yeah, go for it.

00:17:51   Yeah, so I don't know.

00:17:56   I think I'm just really interested

00:17:59   in what Apple is gonna be able to do with the software

00:18:01   to make it closer to what some people want

00:18:06   as a laptop experience.

00:18:08   - Yeah, I think you and I highlighted that sentence.

00:18:12   I don't have it in front of me right now,

00:18:13   but in your review, but more or less,

00:18:14   and you know, it's not a unique observation,

00:18:17   but I thought you said it very well,

00:18:19   but something more or less along the lines of

00:18:21   comparing it to the Surface,

00:18:23   certainly the Surface Pros from Microsoft,

00:18:28   the Surface Pros are saddled with

00:18:33   the overly complex Windows 10,

00:18:36   and the iPad Pro is saddled with

00:18:40   what is still clearly a phone operating system.

00:18:46   And so they're approaching, both companies are approaching a,

00:18:51   they're trying to get to the same place, but Microsoft is going,

00:18:55   is approaching it with a more complex legacy operating system.

00:19:00   And Apple's approaching it with an overly simplistic, um,

00:19:06   meant for a little four or five inch, three, four,

00:19:09   five inch device operating system.

00:19:11   Right. And I think that's like,

00:19:13   what's going to be fascinating to watch over the next couple of years is like,

00:19:16   how do they both get there?

00:19:18   Like one's gotta add, one's gotta like,

00:19:20   you know, it's like one's gotta pick up pieces on the root

00:19:23   and the other's gotta somehow dump them, hopefully.

00:19:28   I don't know what Microsoft's plan is

00:19:30   with a lot of the bloat that's in Windows.

00:19:32   But yeah.

00:19:34   - And it's, I totally appreciate

00:19:37   that it is an incredibly hard problem

00:19:38   for both companies to solve.

00:19:40   I mean, a lot of times we can, you know,

00:19:42   we on the outside can sit here and complain and make it.

00:19:46   There are some problems that are frustrating

00:19:47   'cause it really does seem like it ought to be easy

00:19:49   for a company to fix.

00:19:50   And maybe it's not and you don't wanna,

00:19:52   who knows what the reasons are behind it.

00:19:53   But this is one where clearly it's complicated.

00:19:57   But like just one specific issue with the pro.

00:20:00   Do you use the multitasking on the pro,

00:20:02   the two things at the same time multitasking

00:20:05   where you slide it out from the left?

00:20:06   I do it all the time.

00:20:08   And it's one of those things that quickly became habit

00:20:13   for me.

00:20:14   and to compare and contrast,

00:20:16   I think that it's taken me longer to become a habit

00:20:18   is the new way in iOS 9

00:20:22   that you can put two fingers on the keyboard

00:20:25   and move the insertion point around

00:20:27   when you're editing text.

00:20:29   - Yeah. - I love it,

00:20:30   but I keep forgetting to use it.

00:20:33   Whereas the multitasking-- - Yeah, that's like

00:20:34   the 3D Touch.

00:20:35   - Yeah, same thing.

00:20:36   3D Touch, I like it, and I'm starting to make it a habit,

00:20:40   but it's, I keep forgetting about it.

00:20:44   Whereas the multitasking on the iPad Pro is like,

00:20:48   I took to it like-- - Second nature for sure.

00:20:49   - Yeah, exactly.

00:20:50   But-- - Yeah.

00:20:53   - But for example, you can't put two Safari windows

00:20:59   side by side. - Right.

00:21:00   Yeah, I mentioned that in my review.

00:21:02   Oh, I've got a stand up, hold on,

00:21:05   my Apple Watch just told me.

00:21:07   Did you hear it?

00:21:08   - Yes. (laughs)

00:21:10   - Should I mute for today?

00:21:11   I don't know, you know, like you feel guilty

00:21:13   hitting that mute for today.

00:21:16   - Yeah, I do too. - Did you hit the mute

00:21:17   for today?

00:21:18   - No, what I do is, I've had sound off

00:21:21   on my Apple Watch for months now.

00:21:25   I forget the limit.

00:21:26   It's just been, there's too many times

00:21:29   where I want it to be mute,

00:21:30   and so I've just left it muted.

00:21:31   - I'm just kidding, okay, I'm not hitting mute for today.

00:21:34   - Yeah, I feel really bad. - Because no one's gonna

00:21:35   remind me in like 30 minutes again,

00:21:37   and then we can have this conversation over again.

00:21:40   - I feel bad muting for the day when it's this early.

00:21:42   If it still isn't even dark out, I feel like it's too soon.

00:21:47   - I was like, the day's almost over, it's three o'clock.

00:21:49   (laughing)

00:21:51   - But any--

00:21:52   - I mean, I stay up till like 1 a.m.

00:21:53   So it's not really almost over,

00:21:55   but I feel like I can leave the office soon.

00:21:57   - I think you can always leave an office.

00:22:00   Well, this is why I don't.

00:22:02   I've never held an office job for a while.

00:22:03   - I mean, no one's watching me.

00:22:03   I mean, no one knows where I am.

00:22:06   - This is why I was never a good employee,

00:22:09   but I've always felt like as soon as it's dark outside,

00:22:11   can leave so come yeah outside of New York yeah it's perfect it makes me a

00:22:18   substandard employee I think but yeah I mean really nobody's watching my moves

00:22:24   or at least that's what I think listening to this that would be awesome

00:22:29   if he was on a Mac or Windows you it would be crazy to think you couldn't

00:22:38   have two browser tabs, Windows, whatever you want to call them, side by side.

00:22:43   It would be crazy.

00:22:46   And that's where we are though on iOS.

00:22:49   And I don't know what the solution is.

00:22:52   I think it seems to me like with the way that the rules of iOS multitasking where you slide

00:22:58   it over and if you want to switch which app is in that right hand pane, why can't Safari

00:23:03   be listed in there too?

00:23:05   - Yeah, and actually, I wouldn't mind that on the iPhone 2.

00:23:09   I wouldn't mind being able to separate out tabs

00:23:12   as a new window, so I find it annoying.

00:23:16   Sometimes I'll go back and forth between two websites,

00:23:20   and so you know you've gotta hit the tab button

00:23:22   in the right corner.

00:23:23   What if I could just double tap to see two Safari windows

00:23:28   side by, in the multitasking tray carousel thing?

00:23:34   It's, you know, I want that sometimes.

00:23:38   And the same thing with any, with like a,

00:23:40   like a document editing thing,

00:23:42   where if you've got whatever app you use for text editing,

00:23:46   let's just say though,

00:23:47   you're using the built-in notes app.

00:23:49   Why wouldn't you want to be able to have two of those

00:23:51   side by side?

00:23:52   So you could have one that was your notes for an article

00:23:54   and the other is the article you're writing.

00:23:57   - Absolutely.

00:23:57   I mean, I, this is a secret about me.

00:24:01   I, my most used app on my Mac is TextEdit.

00:24:04   I have right now-- - That's true for a lot of people.

00:24:06   - Is it? - Yeah, I think so.

00:24:09   - I feel inferior.

00:24:11   It's just so simple and great.

00:24:13   Right now I have 20 text edit windows open.

00:24:16   I have untitled 21 up right now.

00:24:19   I just open them and jot down notes

00:24:24   and then I just close them.

00:24:25   And yes, it's because I have three of the little ones

00:24:30   on my screen right now

00:24:31   for three different things I'm working on.

00:24:33   I would love to be able to put two of them side by side

00:24:36   on the pro.

00:24:38   I mean, I would love TextEdit on iOS.

00:24:42   - Yeah, there were rumors last year

00:24:44   that they were working on it. - I mean, the TextEdit team,

00:24:45   I mean, really, what have they been doing?

00:24:47   I mean, no offense, TextEdit team,

00:24:51   but there's not been many updates to your app since like,

00:24:54   ever.

00:24:55   And maybe they should get on it.

00:24:58   I mean, just as an advice for the TextEdit team.

00:25:01   Love what you're doing.

00:25:02   Love your work.

00:25:03   Love your app, it's my most used app on my Mac,

00:25:05   but maybe start working on the iOS version.

00:25:08   - It's funny that, there was a rumor last year

00:25:12   that there was gonna be a text edit for iOS,

00:25:16   and preview too.

00:25:18   - Oh yeah, I remember that.

00:25:20   - Yeah, and it seemingly just--

00:25:22   - Preview is another one of my favorites.

00:25:25   - Yeah.

00:25:26   - I mean preview, and this is where when I sometimes

00:25:29   really try and make the switch back to Windows,

00:25:31   These are some of the apps that are so core

00:25:35   to the operating system that Microsoft just doesn't have.

00:25:38   Preview is a great example.

00:25:40   Microsoft just doesn't have something

00:25:42   like Preview on Windows 10.

00:25:43   Like a basic thing where you can look at photos, yes,

00:25:49   but some of those basic editing tools,

00:25:51   and at the ease of using them, not there.

00:25:54   - Yeah, all right, just if you wanna make a quick crop or--

00:25:57   - Yeah, quick crop, resize the photo,

00:26:00   and stuff. I mean, it's a great pre again, the preview team

00:26:04   really.

00:26:04   I mean, it's probably my second use most used app on my Mac.

00:26:09   Here's an example there. I got a a complimentary review copy of

00:26:17   a new book from the people at a list apart last week. Thank you

00:26:21   to them for sending it to me. It was very kind. They sent it to

00:26:23   me by email. And I opened it up and I started reading.

00:26:30   and it was actually a book on responsive web design,

00:26:32   so it's obviously something I need to read

00:26:34   since my website still isn't responsive.

00:26:37   Started reading it and I don't know,

00:26:39   hours later, next day, I wanted to,

00:26:41   I was like, oh, I wanna keep reading that book.

00:26:43   And I was on the iPad Pro and I'm like,

00:26:46   where the hell is that?

00:26:47   And I like blanked out for a couple of seconds,

00:26:50   like why can't I find it here?

00:26:53   And then I realized, oh, there's no preview here.

00:26:57   - Right. - And,

00:26:59   You know, there is a way to do that.

00:27:01   You can use iBooks, you can open the PDF in iBooks

00:27:04   and it'll sync across and you can read on the Mac

00:27:07   and read here.

00:27:08   But I use Preview, not iBooks to read PDFs

00:27:10   because it's, you know, when you double click it,

00:27:12   that's what it opens in on your Mac.

00:27:14   - Right.

00:27:15   I mean, I guess on iOS, they just figure photos

00:27:18   is the answer, but photos doesn't have support for PDF

00:27:23   and some of those kind of features that you have in Preview.

00:27:28   I think what it is more is that they, even with iCloud and even with the new iCloud drive,

00:27:36   which does work pretty well, I think.

00:27:38   I mean, in my experience, it syncs pretty reliably and pretty quickly.

00:27:45   But I feel like they're averse to adding document-oriented apps to iOS, right?

00:27:55   opposed to let's say Notes where the new Notes app is updated on Mac OS XL

00:28:00   Capitan and it's updated on iOS but you don't have files you know now

00:28:05   technically there are files hidden somewhere in your you know library folder

00:28:09   somewhere but there's no files that are actually exposed to you whereas preview

00:28:13   is still about opening PDF dot PDF files and text edit it that's right and that

00:28:18   comes back to our file system conversation right but they have it they

00:28:22   have it with iCloud now and they have the iCloud Drive app but it's almost

00:28:25   like they don't want to even even with the fact that it's that it is now technically possible to

00:28:30   do you know in iOS in a pretty easy you know way I feel like they're just averse to it on

00:28:37   like philosophical grounds almost. Yeah I mean the problem with yeah I guess if you're using

00:28:49   drive and you really are invested in that maybe you don't have a lot of these problems

00:28:53   Well, you do have the problem if some of the apps don't use it.

00:28:56   I don't know.

00:29:00   I can't say I'm going to go to iCloud Drive.

00:29:01   I just can't commit to that.

00:29:03   Do you use it at all?

00:29:05   Not really.

00:29:06   I use it for photos.

00:29:07   Is that different?

00:29:08   It's different, right?

00:29:09   Yeah.

00:29:10   That's different because, yeah, that's just iCloud photo syncing where it's not really

00:29:16   in the file system.

00:29:17   See, I live in a Google world.

00:29:20   So then what do you...

00:29:21   Do you live in a Google world?

00:29:22   I try to use as little Google stuff as possible.

00:29:25   So with Google, where do you,

00:29:30   so you use Google Drive to sync documents

00:29:32   from one thing to another?

00:29:33   - Yeah.

00:29:34   - How does that work in the Finder?

00:29:35   I don't even know.

00:29:36   Like how does that work on a Mac?

00:29:38   - Well, you can sync all your Google Drive stuff

00:29:43   to your Mac.

00:29:44   I actually don't do that.

00:29:46   I actually just go through the Chrome browser

00:29:48   because I don't want all those files there.

00:29:52   And I think that that's more likely the most natural way

00:29:55   to do it from a Google point of view.

00:29:57   - Mostly everything for me is right in Chrome.

00:30:02   - Yeah, for me, I do use iCloud Drive,

00:30:07   but it only works with certain apps.

00:30:09   I mean, my primary way of like, hey,

00:30:12   if I have a file that I wanna be available everywhere,

00:30:14   I put it in my Dropbox folder.

00:30:15   Dropbox is the more important,

00:30:18   way more important to me, method.

00:30:22   - Yeah, I mean, I guess I just,

00:30:23   I really use Drive for my documents,

00:30:28   for like my, yeah, my documents I'm like actively

00:30:32   editing and filing, that's how I actually do file

00:30:35   to my editors through Docs, Google Docs.

00:30:37   - Yeah, no, for me it's Dropbox.

00:30:40   So like anything, like if I'm working on an article

00:30:42   for Daring Fireball, it's a BB Edit text file,

00:30:46   but it's saved to a folder in Dropbox.

00:30:49   - In Dropbox.

00:30:50   - Hmm, that's a good work around.

00:30:53   Yeah, I usually write a lot in text edit

00:30:57   and then copy into, I have weird things.

00:31:01   Actually, I write most of my columns in Word.

00:31:03   I'm just gonna say it right there.

00:31:05   Still, I just feel comfortable.

00:31:08   On a Sunday when I write, even when I write my scripts,

00:31:11   I just feel really comfortable in Word.

00:31:14   It's just like my place, you know?

00:31:15   So I just go into Word 2001, yep.

00:31:19   still 2011, I'm sorry, 2011.

00:31:22   And that's where I am.

00:31:24   Yeah, that's a weird thing, I guess.

00:31:27   I should probably upgrade this too.

00:31:30   - Well, not that BBEdit isn't relevant,

00:31:33   but the fact that I use a programming text editor

00:31:36   as my writing thing is, you know,

00:31:38   it's not really because I need to,

00:31:40   it's just, that's where I've always done my writing.

00:31:43   And so it's, you know, it is a comfort thing.

00:31:45   I think you wanna be, as you know, writers famously,

00:31:49   you know, whether they're picky about which brand pencil they use if they write in longhand

00:31:53   or, you know, certain brand of typewriter or even like certain types of paper to put

00:32:00   in a typewriter. Writers have always been fussy about stuff like that. And I think it's

00:32:04   because we have so many problems, just problems in general.

00:32:09   We have problems.

00:32:10   We just tend to problematic people.

00:32:11   No, like sometimes I'll have like, you know, I just like don't know how I want to write

00:32:13   something and I'll like, it's one of those pieces. You know, the iPad was a good example

00:32:17   Pro. There were so many different ways could have gone about it, and I wanted to go about

00:32:22   it, but I also had to write for a very mainstream audience on it. And so like, I just had such

00:32:28   a hard time figuring out where to start that piece. And I probably opened like, every text

00:32:34   editing program I had on my computer and just like, maybe if I write it in here, something

00:32:39   will come, you know, like you just every procrastination technique. And it usually involves opening

00:32:45   like every text editor I have on my computer.

00:32:48   (laughs)

00:32:49   - I'm like that sometimes too, especially with the iPad Pro

00:32:53   where I wanted to write my review on the iPad Pro.

00:32:55   So I didn't have BB Edit, so it wasn't like a, you know,

00:32:59   so I just started writing in three or four different apps.

00:33:02   And then I got very confused about,

00:33:04   well, where's the part that I wrote about the pencil?

00:33:06   Oh, it's in the other app.

00:33:07   - Yeah, no, I did the same kind of thing

00:33:09   'cause I was actually, the day I started

00:33:11   like sitting down to write, I was running the battery test.

00:33:14   So I was writing on my Mac, but then I actually ended up writing a lot of it in pages because

00:33:21   it was, you know, I used, I guess I used iCloud drive for that.

00:33:24   Yeah, you must have.

00:33:26   Yeah.

00:33:27   Yeah.

00:33:28   You didn't even know it though.

00:33:30   Didn't even know it.

00:33:31   All right.

00:33:32   Let me take a break here and thank my first sponsor and it's our good friends at Squarespace.

00:33:37   You guys know Squarespace.

00:33:39   It's the all-in-one way to build, design, and host your website.

00:33:45   And it can be any sort of website.

00:33:47   You can build an online store.

00:33:49   You can create a portfolio.

00:33:50   You can create a blog.

00:33:53   You could use it to host a podcast.

00:33:55   They even have, like, for podcasting, they even have their own custom audio player.

00:34:00   They even support built-in things like building an RSS feed with all the weird iTunes stuff

00:34:06   you need for a podcast.

00:34:08   you need for your own personal website or a company website or any sort of website.

00:34:12   Or even a website for your dog.

00:34:14   Yeah, a website for your dog. You could use Squarespace.

00:34:17   You know, I'm not above this. You know how I like to talk about your sponsors. I actually

00:34:22   did this also on the Vergecast a couple weeks ago. I wrote about how to build your own website

00:34:28   a couple of months ago and I fell in love with Squarespace. And I actually made my whole

00:34:33   concept was, I'm going to make a website for my dog. And so when

00:34:38   you go to browser in your browser.com now, that was made

00:34:42   with Squarespace. What's the website? What's the address?

00:34:44   browser in your browser.com browser in your browser.com. And

00:34:49   there's an example of a website built with Squarespace. It is

00:34:53   one also say Squarespace does not pay me. I do not make the

00:34:57   rounds on podcasts to talk about Squarespace.

00:34:59   (laughing)

00:35:01   There it is, there it is, browserinyourbrowser.com.

00:35:07   - Tell me this, this is a really nice website, okay?

00:35:11   - It really is.

00:35:12   - It really is.

00:35:14   - I even, it's even typeset

00:35:17   in one of my all time favorite fonts.

00:35:20   It's beautiful, gorgeous Futura Bold.

00:35:22   It's gorgeous.

00:35:24   - Thank you, thank you.

00:35:26   - It really is.

00:35:27   Joanna Stern isn't even paid for this.

00:35:29   I am, but I'm telling you right now, if you need a website,

00:35:32   spend an hour in Squarespace for free

00:35:35   and before you try doing it any other way

00:35:38   and you will be surprised at how far you go.

00:35:40   Plans start at an unbelievable $8 a month,

00:35:44   which includes everything.

00:35:46   It's not just like, oh, you build your website

00:35:48   and then you have to go find a web host,

00:35:50   which is where you're gonna host it.

00:35:52   You've got a big pile of HTML files and stuff

00:35:54   and you upload them.

00:35:55   No, it's all built in.

00:35:56   Squarespace does it all.

00:35:58   You get a free trial to start.

00:36:01   No credit card required.

00:36:02   Just go to squarespace.com and when you do sign up to start paying, just remember the

00:36:07   offer code.

00:36:08   It's my last name, Gruber, G-R-U-B-E-R, and you'll get 10% off your first purchase.

00:36:13   Build it beautiful.

00:36:14   Go to Squarespace.

00:36:15   Seriously, beautiful, beautiful website.

00:36:16   Easy to build.

00:36:17   I really need to update browser in your browser.com.

00:36:22   I can't wait.

00:36:23   I'm paying it.

00:36:24   paying the $9 a month, like you just said,

00:36:27   for the custom domain and for the hosting.

00:36:30   And I need to update the site.

00:36:32   I need to, tonight I'm updating the site.

00:36:35   - Yeah, 'cause people are gonna go.

00:36:37   And it is nicely, it is actually very nicely responsive too.

00:36:40   Here I am dragging the window around and as soon as--

00:36:42   - I know, it works really well on mobile.

00:36:44   And you can, that's one of the nice things.

00:36:45   You can see the view, you can see the mobile view.

00:36:48   I did a whole column on it.

00:36:50   I mean, it was a really fun piece.

00:36:55   - They sponsor so many podcasts,

00:36:56   and I know that people,

00:36:58   I don't know if people tune it out or what,

00:37:00   but it is a remarkable service, it really is.

00:37:04   And there's nothing else like it.

00:37:05   I can't think of anything.

00:37:06   I know there's other ways to host websites.

00:37:08   There's a gazillion ways to host websites.

00:37:08   - I can think of a lot of other ways.

00:37:10   You should read my article.

00:37:11   But in the end, all you need to know

00:37:15   is that Squarespace was the top pick,

00:37:17   that one browser in your browser.com.

00:37:19   - There we go.

00:37:20   - But I reviewed like three or four of them.

00:37:21   I really went through the things.

00:37:24   It was a really popular article

00:37:25   'cause a lot of our readers have small businesses

00:37:27   and were interested in, I got tons of interesting emails

00:37:31   of people who wanted to launch websites

00:37:32   just for small things they wanted to do

00:37:34   and they couldn't believe how easy it was.

00:37:36   - Yeah.

00:37:37   - I need to go work for Squarespace, what am I saying?

00:37:39   I need to go.

00:37:40   I basically sell Squarespace subscriptions

00:37:46   or whatever people sell there.

00:37:48   All right, next device on the list.

00:37:55   I would love to pick your mind about the Surface Pro 4 and the Surface Book.

00:38:05   I actually just got the mailroom just dropped off the latest Surface Book, which they tell

00:38:12   me Microsoft has sent, says this is the shipping unit, I should have no problems.

00:38:17   But that's where I should back up and talk about some of the problems I have, but

00:38:21   I have to take it out of the box.

00:38:22   Yeah, what an interesting series of announcements from Microsoft.

00:38:29   The book, my review was very,

00:38:36   I'll actually just be honest and tell you the story about what happened with

00:38:38   the review.

00:38:39   So I loved using the Surface Book.

00:38:43   I think it's an incredible piece of hardware that Microsoft made.

00:38:46   Everything from sort of the screen to how the keyboard works and

00:38:50   the trackpad actually finally working very, very well.

00:38:54   After years of reviewing, just really just terrible.

00:39:00   I mean, I have probably a lot of emotional and

00:39:04   psychological issues because of how many terrible Windows laptops I've reviewed.

00:39:09   It was just such a nice change.

00:39:14   It's just such a, it was just, you know,

00:39:16   it's just, it was a really big step, I think,

00:39:19   in the history of Windows laptops.

00:39:22   So wrote this really good review,

00:39:24   and then the first unit I had had some issues.

00:39:29   Actually, the first Surface Pro 4 I had had some issues,

00:39:33   and so it wouldn't restart.

00:39:34   And then the Surface Book,

00:39:37   the first one I had had a driver issue,

00:39:41   and so it kind of kept crashing.

00:39:42   And then they sent me another one and about,

00:39:47   I don't know, 24 hours before filing

00:39:50   or that review going up, the thing just completely crashed.

00:39:53   The hard drive just completely crashed,

00:39:56   couldn't restart Windows.

00:39:57   And there was a couple of other bugs

00:39:59   that they said were gonna be sorted through.

00:40:01   And then other reviewers had the same problem.

00:40:05   So I ended up basically saying

00:40:07   I couldn't recommend the Surface Book.

00:40:08   And so now I'm at a point where I'm retesting it

00:40:11   to see if they did solve this hard drive problem.

00:40:15   - It sounds like from what I can tell,

00:40:18   and I did not get one to review,

00:40:20   because I'm not really in that racket,

00:40:24   but I've seen it.

00:40:26   And I was at like a Microsoft event here in Philadelphia

00:40:29   where Ben Rudolph, who's like the lead evangelist

00:40:34   for these things, they hosted a thing

00:40:37   and he was kind enough to invite me

00:40:38   and I got to spend some time using it there.

00:40:40   but it's very different than spending a week with it.

00:40:42   But it sounds to me from reading everything

00:40:44   that what Microsoft did is they seeded the review units

00:40:49   before they had the, whatever you wanna call it,

00:40:53   golden master, this is what's gonna go out to consumers.

00:40:55   And there were some pretty serious bugs

00:40:58   because it wasn't just you,

00:40:59   it was pretty much everybody kind of ran

00:41:01   into the same issues.

00:41:03   - Yeah, I mean, there were bugs

00:41:05   and then there were hardware problems.

00:41:06   And the bugs definitely did make it into shipping units.

00:41:11   I got many emails and tweets from readers

00:41:14   who said I had the same problems.

00:41:17   I just went back to the Microsoft store.

00:41:18   I returned it.

00:41:19   There was some clear quality control issues,

00:41:24   just clear issues that made it through to shipping units.

00:41:28   I didn't hear about the hard drive failures.

00:41:31   Yes, and Microsoft did say that they had sent review units

00:41:36   with different hard drives and they had caught

00:41:38   these issues at the factory.

00:41:40   So I had had the problem first on the Surface Pro 4

00:41:44   and then again, you know, the Surface Book as well.

00:41:48   So yeah, I'm hoping this time around,

00:41:50   everything goes as well and I can,

00:41:52   goes well and I can actually, you know,

00:41:54   really recommend this as, you know,

00:41:57   the best Windows laptop ever made.

00:42:00   But--

00:42:01   - Does it have an actual hard drive in it?

00:42:04   It's not an SSD?

00:42:05   - They're SSDs, yeah.

00:42:07   - But they had problems.

00:42:08   - They had problems, yeah.

00:42:09   I'm sorry, I keep using the word hard drive.

00:42:11   But yeah, they're SSDs with some sort of issue.

00:42:15   And as far as I understand,

00:42:17   they actually changed out the manufacturer of it.

00:42:20   - Interesting.

00:42:22   So let's give them the benefit of the doubt for now

00:42:26   and talk about it as what it's supposed to be.

00:42:31   And let's assume that they're gonna iron out the bugs

00:42:34   and the manufacturing issues.

00:42:39   And talk about it just for what it should be.

00:42:45   - Yeah, I mean, I took this like funny,

00:42:52   I mean, I think one of the things that's been interesting

00:42:54   about Microsoft over the last year is like,

00:42:57   when they looked at the tablet market,

00:43:02   they had to kind of say, well, what's our strength?

00:43:04   Our strength is not what the iPad is.

00:43:07   We haven't created a really touch friendly platform that works, or we have,

00:43:12   but they tried to create a touch friendly platform and it failed.

00:43:16   Windows 8 was by and large obviously a huge failure.

00:43:21   And we haven't got the apps to make this that really great,

00:43:25   immersive, compelling experience that the iPad has.

00:43:29   But what we do find is people want to do more work on these things.

00:43:31   So we wanna make tablets more productive.

00:43:34   Which really was like, okay,

00:43:37   we're gonna make tablets that can replace your laptop.

00:43:39   And it was like, okay, so why don't you just make a laptop?

00:43:42   Like the tablet really couldn't replace your laptop.

00:43:45   I mean it could, but it wasn't as good as a laptop.

00:43:47   And it certainly wasn't as good as the laptops they had kept putting it up against,

00:43:51   which was the Air.

00:43:51   So they kept kinda convincing us like, we're really good at productivity and so

00:43:57   you should want to buy our device that can actually be a good laptop.

00:44:01   And it was like, just make a laptop.

00:44:03   And so now they made a laptop, but it's actually still a tablet.

00:44:07   And so it kind of just like, and that's trying to wrap my head around the whole

00:44:10   industry right now, which is tablets that want to be laptops,

00:44:14   laptops that want to be tablets.

00:44:16   In the case of Microsoft, they've got a phone that wants to be a desktop.

00:44:20   What are all of this kind of hybridization of things and

00:44:24   what do we actually want to use?

00:44:27   And I think with the Surface Book,

00:44:29   it's actually coming to a point where it's like,

00:44:31   okay, this could, this kind of feels like the future.

00:44:35   It doesn't, it isn't the best right now.

00:44:37   It's not a great tablet.

00:44:39   It's actually a pretty terrible tablet

00:44:40   when you think about that.

00:44:42   The battery life is really bad when you take it off the dock.

00:44:46   But the idea that, you know,

00:44:48   tablets can just be the tops of our laptops

00:44:50   and that keyboards are just being added back

00:44:53   to these things to make them laptops,

00:44:55   well, that makes kind of sense.

00:44:57   That makes sense, you know?

00:44:58   And so I kind of looked at it from that perspective.

00:45:01   And then I just really tried to look at it as like,

00:45:03   this is just a Windows laptop.

00:45:04   And it's like, got the build of an Apple laptop.

00:45:08   It's got a touchpad that actually works

00:45:10   that I don't wanna hook up a huge mouse to it.

00:45:13   It's got a beautiful screen.

00:45:15   And so on hardware,

00:45:16   Microsoft's finally giving us something that heightens

00:45:20   and makes Windows worth it.

00:45:23   I just threw out a lot of thoughts, but.

00:45:26   - No, but that's,

00:45:27   So when I was at the iPad Pro event in September,

00:45:32   and in the hands-on area, I was hanging out

00:45:34   with my friend Michael Johnson, AKA Dr. Wave on Twitter,

00:45:38   who's a developer at Pixar, and writes internal tools

00:45:43   for Pixar and has written a lot of software

00:45:46   to use the Wacom tablets and all sorts, for their artists.

00:45:50   I hung around with him because he knows

00:45:54   what the hell he's talking about in terms of evaluating

00:45:57   stylist on a thing. And one of the things he did when he first got to try the

00:46:02   Apple Pencil on the iPad Pro is all he did was just in the like the the Apple

00:46:07   Notes app, he just put the pencil down and just started scribbling circles. Just

00:46:11   spirally circles and just watching the latency. That's all he did just to see

00:46:16   and he was very impressed. And it you know all he wanted to test at first was

00:46:19   the palm rejection and if he drew squiggles really really fast did it keep

00:46:24   up. That's exactly what I did when I got to try the Surface Book with the trackpad. I

00:46:31   just wanted to see, just put my finger on the trackpad and look at the mouse cursor

00:46:35   and I just moved it around in a circle really fast to see, does this work like a MacBook

00:46:42   trackpad where it's great or is it like every other PC I've ever put my hands on in recent

00:46:48   years where it's, you know, oh man, I can see why people still miss the ThinkPad nubbin.

00:46:54   Yeah, the niggle.

00:46:56   Because the trackpad stinks. And it was great. I mean, the Surface Pro trackpad, I mean,

00:47:00   again, did I spend a week with it? No. But in terms of just that quick test, it was great.

00:47:05   I mean, I'm the reviewer who has said for the last five years, it is probably Apple's

00:47:13   most favorite thing that I have said,

00:47:15   that Apple makes the best Windows computer.

00:47:18   And I said it when I was working at Engadget,

00:47:21   I said when I was working at The Verge,

00:47:22   and I've said it when I've been working here at the Journal,

00:47:25   when you install Windows on a MacBook Air or a MacBook Pro,

00:47:30   Windows runs better there than it does

00:47:33   on pretty much any other laptop I've ever tested

00:47:35   in the last 10 years.

00:47:37   And that is a problem for Microsoft.

00:47:42   as more and more people buy iPhones,

00:47:45   more and more people see what Apple does

00:47:48   in terms of hardware and software collaboration,

00:47:51   that is a problem for Microsoft,

00:47:52   especially in the place where they most want us

00:47:55   to look to them, which is work, doing things.

00:48:00   And so I think, you know, that's where the Surface Book,

00:48:03   okay, maybe they're not gonna sell as many

00:48:05   as they may want, and I think that they,

00:48:09   I think the pricing structure

00:48:11   And certainly, if you ask my opinion, I think a lot of it is to protect the OEMs

00:48:16   and their partners right now.

00:48:17   I think there's very clear delineation of what's been happening.

00:48:21   You know, this is a computer that starts well above $1,200.

00:48:25   Once you get it to where you want it, most PC buyers buy things under $1,000.

00:48:31   But still, I just think as a proof of concept and for Microsoft to say, look,

00:48:36   we can actually make great hardware for a really great operating system

00:48:40   that we have out right now, we can do it too.

00:48:43   Yeah, they're they're dancing in a very precarious situation

00:48:53   dealing with the OEMs. And they have been ever since they

00:48:56   started with the very first surface, which was really, you

00:49:00   know, clearly not as much, you know, it's more of a, even that,

00:49:04   you know, when the first one, they had the two versions, one

00:49:06   that was the surface that was the arm and, you know, way more

00:49:10   like an iPad and ran a different version of Windows and then they had the Surface Pro

00:49:14   which had an Intel chip and ran the full version of Windows 8. Even though it was a full Windows

00:49:20   8 computer, it was clearly less of a, "Hey, this is a true alternative to a laptop from

00:49:27   Dell or from Lenovo or whoever else, HP, whoever, you name them." It was definitely, this is

00:49:34   like a new concept. Whereas the, now they've, starting from that point, they're clearly

00:49:39   and now with the Surface Book, they are clearly, they have an alternative to a laptop from

00:49:45   one of their OEM partners and that's a weird place for them to be.

00:49:50   And I think you're right.

00:49:51   Right, and actually looking now to see the pricing, they had a cheaper skew and it's

00:49:57   not here now.

00:49:58   It's $1500 starting right now.

00:50:01   Right, which is definitely premium even by Apple standards.

00:50:05   Yeah, I mean most people are buying that thousand dollar air

00:50:09   Right it it definitely has

00:50:13   Impressive build quality though, and I'm not surprised by that

00:50:17   I think the entire story of this this device the fact that the first units that were sent out had these weird bugs and

00:50:24   Manufacturing things well, you know guess what hardware is hard and Microsoft is still sort of new at it

00:50:31   And it's a tribute to the expertise of the existing companies Apple certainly

00:50:37   But even on the PC side, you know that that most PCs that you test right don't have those sort of problems

00:50:44   That's unusual for you to get a review unit that has problems like this, right?

00:50:48   Yes, well

00:51:00   I'm trying to think back.

00:51:01   I have had many instances where PC manufacturers

00:51:06   had really messed up certain components

00:51:10   and they just did not work.

00:51:12   Yeah, but you know what?

00:51:16   You kind of seemed more forgivable in those senses.

00:51:21   - How about this?

00:51:22   Unusual but not unprecedented.

00:51:24   - Yes, yes, absolutely.

00:51:26   - So it's not surprising that there,

00:51:29   to me that they're having those problems.

00:51:32   But on the other hand, they have been making--

00:51:35   Microsoft has made peripherals for a long time.

00:51:38   I mean, as long as I can remember,

00:51:40   Microsoft has been making mice and keyboards.

00:51:42   And their mice and keyboards have always been excellent.

00:51:47   I mean, truly top notch peripherals.

00:51:51   Yeah.

00:51:51   Oh, by the way, I want to say I corrected.

00:51:53   The entry level is 1,500.

00:51:54   I don't know.

00:51:55   For some reason, I thought it was 1,300.

00:51:57   It's 1500 on the Surface Book.

00:52:00   - So I'm not surprised.

00:52:03   - Yeah, no, they've always made great peripherals.

00:52:06   - I thought that the keyboard on the Surface Book

00:52:11   was excellent, the trackpad was excellent,

00:52:13   the driver support to make sure

00:52:15   that the good hardware trackpad actually translated

00:52:19   to a good experience on screen was absolutely seamless.

00:52:24   - Yeah, yeah, I mean, the issues really did come down to,

00:52:29   I think there were some bugs and issues with the drivers

00:52:33   for the display that was causing a couple of flickering

00:52:37   issues and then obviously there was other things.

00:52:38   So I'm excited to take this one out of the box

00:52:40   and see how it goes.

00:52:42   But I know I've heard from a lot of happy buyers.

00:52:44   I mean, you know, when it comes to,

00:52:47   I mean, it's also a really, really powerful system.

00:52:50   So, and I like the pen too.

00:52:52   I mean, I actually still now prefer the iPad Pro pen over the Surface pen, though I've

00:53:00   lost both of them.

00:53:01   So that's...

00:53:02   Wait, in your review, you said you only had lost the cap, but now you've lost the entire

00:53:08   pencil?

00:53:09   Yes, I can't find the pen right now.

00:53:10   Pencil.

00:53:11   I think I know where it is.

00:53:13   I mean, this is a really big problem.

00:53:15   I mean, it's 2015 and we cannot find our styluses.

00:53:20   We need a better way to keep track of our styluses.

00:53:23   And actually I have to say, Samsung, they have that feature where if the stylus goes

00:53:29   too far away, it will tell you on your phone.

00:53:32   I don't know if they have that in the current note, but they had it.

00:53:36   Something like that is, I think, kind of the key to the prevention of the loss or the kidnapping

00:53:43   of the styluses.

00:53:45   I thought about the like I kind of I do enjoy one of my favorite Apple Watch features is

00:53:52   the make your phone beep. Yeah. Yeah, I thought about that. We need something like that. Well,

00:54:00   but the problem I think would be that I suspect that the pencil, I suspect that the pencil

00:54:07   turn Well, yeah, it would need a it would need a speaker. And B, it would need to be

00:54:11   on all the time. Like the reason it works for finding your phone is that until a phone

00:54:14   is off, it's on in some degree. And the pencil, I think one of the reasons it gets such a

00:54:19   seemingly amazing battery life is that it somehow turns off in a very intelligent manner

00:54:26   when you're not using it.

00:54:27   Yes.

00:54:28   And so I don't know.

00:54:29   But also, like they have, I did a piece a couple of years ago about the Bluetooth low

00:54:37   energy trackers. And so those work when they're in the vicinity of your phone. So possibly,

00:54:46   and there's really interesting crowdsourcing stuff that's happening with those, that if

00:54:51   those are in the proximity of another one of those, like, have you seen the tile trackers

00:54:56   or the tracker? Like, those, those can talk to each other. So what if all the styluses

00:55:01   could talk to each other?

00:55:04   That would be something.

00:55:05   It needs to be solved.

00:55:08   It's definitely a problem.

00:55:10   It's definitely a problem.

00:55:11   I need to have many conversations with Apple.

00:55:13   Number one, let's talk about the stylists talking to each other.

00:55:16   Number two, let's talk about text edit.

00:55:19   Number three, let's talk about an ad where iPad lovers fall in love around the iPad.

00:55:27   A shared movie.

00:55:30   All these things could happen in one ad.

00:55:31   All right.

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00:58:56   I love these guys.

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00:59:00   That's part of the deal with the SEC stuff is that if you are being paid by them as an

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00:59:11   But it's interesting.

00:59:14   It spooks me out that I have, like, this show is obviously sort of a seat of the pants operation.

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00:59:33   But to have an all caps bold, "You must read this for legal purposes" thing, it freaks

00:59:40   me the hell out.

00:59:43   With the Surface Book, I think you're clearly, it's clearly a laptop first and a tablet second

00:59:51   for multiple reasons.

00:59:54   It's part of the GPU processing is in the part that you detach.

00:59:58   It's in the keyboard part.

01:00:02   And like you said, it doesn't get-

01:00:03   And the battery life is all in the keyboard.

01:00:09   But it's way less cumbersome than I thought, including the software support in Windows.

01:00:19   Yeah, I mean, a lot of people also complained about the screen wobble.

01:00:25   That was a deal breaker for some people.

01:00:28   The screen wobble is not a deal breaker for me.

01:00:31   I mean, yeah, when you shake the top of the screen, it certainly wobbles more than a laptop

01:00:37   that has a very sturdy hinge. But yeah, not not a deal breaker. I

01:00:42   think the screen wobble.

01:00:44   Oh, I think Apple had had a screen wobble like that. And it's

01:00:48   like, I don't know. I don't know how I'd feel if Apple had a

01:00:51   screen wobble like that.

01:00:52   Well, I think if if a if a MacBook had screen wobble like

01:00:58   that, but it didn't detach, right? It would be a pure

01:01:02   complaint like the other ones don't wobble this one wobbles.

01:01:06   you know, what in the world is wrong with this hinge?

01:01:09   Whereas if it wobbles, but it's because you can detach it,

01:01:12   it's, you know, it's a trade off.

01:01:13   It's, you know, it's obviously not ideal,

01:01:15   but it is a trade off.

01:01:16   And I think it's fair to say that,

01:01:19   I like, for example, with the iPad Pro,

01:01:22   when you connect the Apple's Smart Keyboard,

01:01:25   I can use it on my lap.

01:01:28   I, in fact, I have.

01:01:29   I've used it, you know, on my lap, resting on my thighs.

01:01:35   and I've found it sturdy. - Yeah, it's not great

01:01:36   if it works.

01:01:37   - Yeah, but it wobbles.

01:01:38   I mean, I think it wobbles more than the Surface Book would.

01:01:42   - Yeah, in my iPad Pro video, I showed it wobbling off.

01:01:46   But that's more, that's actually not,

01:01:49   that's more top heavy.

01:01:53   I think that's more because the smart cover,

01:01:57   the smart keyboard case is,

01:01:59   weighs less than the tablet.

01:02:03   So when you put it on your leg and it's not on an even plane,

01:02:07   it doesn't have the balancing to balance itself out.

01:02:12   It doesn't have the weight, the evenness of the weight.

01:02:15   But yeah, no, I mean, yeah,

01:02:20   I don't, like, certainly there are compromises

01:02:23   that you're making in design now for either option, right?

01:02:27   And it's like, I don't really know what to call these things

01:02:30   But when you're trying to put a tablet with the keyboard,

01:02:33   you're sacrificing some of the best things about a laptop,

01:02:37   which is using it on your lap,

01:02:38   or using it while you're still your lap.

01:02:42   I just think of the scenarios

01:02:44   when I actually use it on my lap,

01:02:45   which is either sitting in bed or on a couch.

01:02:48   And then when you're combining the tablet

01:02:50   with the laptop, whatever you wanna call these things

01:02:54   that are laptops with tablets, like the Surface Book,

01:02:59   you are making compromises in some of the laptop design.

01:03:01   So whether that be the screen hinge or battery

01:03:05   or can't think of another example right now.

01:03:10   There's something else but I can't think of it.

01:03:11   - Yeah.

01:03:12   - So there are these form factor compromises

01:03:16   we're making on both sides.

01:03:17   And that's what is so hard right now,

01:03:22   like how I started the conversation,

01:03:23   it's like it's so hard to ask people

01:03:28   or to recommend things when it comes down

01:03:30   to what a user's willing to compromise, right?

01:03:34   I mean, when I look at the differences

01:03:37   between something like a Surface Pro 4 and the iPad Pro,

01:03:41   they're such different products.

01:03:43   There are so many different compromises you'd make

01:03:46   on either side, whether it's because of how

01:03:49   the hardware was designed or because of how

01:03:51   the software is so different.

01:03:52   And that, you know, that's like,

01:03:56   That's what is very confusing about

01:03:58   what's happening in computing.

01:04:00   And like part of me wonders,

01:04:02   does all of this have to be happening right now?

01:04:05   You know, is this partially on the Windows side

01:04:08   to get people more interested again in buying PCs?

01:04:11   Is it just that laptops were boring

01:04:13   and people weren't buying them?

01:04:14   I don't know.

01:04:16   On the iPad side, I wonder,

01:04:17   is this a way just to get more people interested again

01:04:20   in the iPad because they want them to do more things?

01:04:25   You know, and it ultimately comes down to

01:04:27   when you're choosing a computer now,

01:04:29   what is it that you want these things to do

01:04:32   and what are you gonna live with?

01:04:33   What are the compromises you're gonna live with?

01:04:36   - I find it, and this is not a normal problem

01:04:41   that most people have, but because I have review units

01:04:44   of all of these various products,

01:04:46   I have all three iPad sizes here,

01:04:49   and they're all set up for me, ready to go.

01:04:51   And I have my MacBook Pro.

01:04:54   And I find it hard at any given moment to choose which

01:04:58   First for like if I'm gonna go away for a week

01:05:01   And which is what we did last week for Thanksgiving family went away for a week

01:05:05   Which iPad do I want to take with me? I don't want to take them all and so I took the

01:05:09   Just to get a break because I've been using the iPad Pro so much

01:05:13   I thought let's go to the complete opposite end of the lineup, and I just took the iPad mini with me

01:05:18   and one of the reasons I did that was also

01:05:23   because my phone is on Verizon, my iPad Mini is on AT&T,

01:05:28   and I find that that's a really useful combination

01:05:30   while traveling because you can go somewhere

01:05:32   where maybe one or the other has terrible service,

01:05:35   but if the other one does, you can just use that one.

01:05:38   And I really liked it.

01:05:41   I still like the iPad Mini a lot.

01:05:44   It's just good at very different things though.

01:05:48   - What iPhone do you have?

01:05:49   - It's iPhone 6. - The 6.

01:05:52   - Not success, but not the big one.

01:05:54   - Not the plus.

01:05:55   - Right, I can't stand the plus.

01:05:58   - Yeah, I don't like the plus either,

01:05:59   but I just did this smartphone buyer's guide

01:06:02   and it's like, on paper, the plus is so much better.

01:06:07   It is the iPhone I should have,

01:06:12   but I don't like using it.

01:06:14   It's just so big.

01:06:16   - Yeah, technically it is clearly the best device.

01:06:20   the image stabilization for video and still photos.

01:06:23   - And the battery life and the photos are just,

01:06:26   and you'd think like those are the two most important things

01:06:28   we want in phones right now, right?

01:06:30   Like better cameras and better battery life,

01:06:32   why don't I just get this bigger phone and I just can't,

01:06:35   you know, and I also, when I reviewed it,

01:06:36   I just couldn't like gravitate towards the plus.

01:06:40   I just hope with the 7 or the next version

01:06:44   that maybe they figure out a way to get the bigger screen

01:06:47   into a smaller body and we won't have to make

01:06:50   the sacrifices of these things because the phone will just feel

01:06:54   smaller.

01:06:54   Yeah, I don't care even care about the bigger getting a bit

01:06:57   more screen on the smaller device. I just want I just don't

01:07:00   want a device that's any physically bigger than this.

01:07:03   And I would I just will hope that they can figure out is to

01:07:06   get the optical image stabilization in the smaller one

01:07:08   and it would be wonderful if they could get the battery

01:07:11   battery plus in the small one, but I'm not holding my breath on

01:07:14   that one. Right? Yeah, but I totally see why some people do I

01:07:18   I know our friend, Nilay, is a Plus user,

01:07:23   and I was talking about it.

01:07:24   - 'Cause he has giant hands.

01:07:25   - He has giant hands, but he also told me that he,

01:07:28   most days, literally does most of his work on his phone.

01:07:32   - Right. - And if that's true

01:07:33   for anybody, you know, like, tons and tons of emails.

01:07:36   - It is for so many people.

01:07:37   - Yeah, and if that's true, that you actually send

01:07:41   most of your email from your phone and stuff like that,

01:07:43   I can totally see why having the bigger keyboard,

01:07:46   you know, for two thumb typing and the extra battery life

01:07:50   is a killer feature.

01:07:52   I totally understand why some people love the plus.

01:07:56   It's just not for me.

01:07:57   - Yeah, same.

01:07:58   No, I mean, and I always want to.

01:08:00   Like when I was doing the smartphone buyers,

01:08:02   I was like, I'm gonna do it.

01:08:04   I put my SIM in there, use it for a day.

01:08:06   I just can't.

01:08:08   And then I just bought a new 6S on Sunday.

01:08:11   - Did you really?

01:08:13   - Yeah, well, I had been using the review unit for--

01:08:15   - Yeah.

01:08:16   - And it was time.

01:08:17   It was time to send back everything.

01:08:19   So I now have a brand new 6 Plus or 6S.

01:08:24   - Well, hold that thought.

01:08:28   That's actually a good point.

01:08:29   So one of the things that we go through

01:08:32   as reviewers of these things is we have to set up

01:08:36   these devices more often than most people.

01:08:38   'Cause it's, you know, at least three times a year,

01:08:41   I have to set one up.

01:08:42   I get a, 'cause now I get two review units,

01:08:45   the 6S and the 6S Plus,

01:08:47   and then I buy my own one that I actually use.

01:08:50   I think that the setup process

01:08:57   for buying a new iPhone is terrible.

01:09:01   - I just tweeted, did you see my tweet earlier this week?

01:09:04   - No, didn't even see it.

01:09:05   - I said, I can't pull it up right now,

01:09:08   but maybe I can.

01:09:09   I said, I got a new iPhone 6S,

01:09:12   I'm not restoring from backup.

01:09:15   I'm just setting it up as a new phone, #YOLO.

01:09:18   'Cause usually I do a restore

01:09:23   and I'm not doing the restore anymore.

01:09:26   - I wonder that might, maybe that's the way to go.

01:09:31   - It's just freeing.

01:09:32   Like this phone, it's like, of course it's brand new,

01:09:35   but it feels really still brand new.

01:09:37   It's not slow with like tons of apps and folders

01:09:41   that I never use.

01:09:42   Yeah, I mean, that's the big thing, right?

01:09:46   It doesn't carry over the apps.

01:09:47   Everything else was blacked up to the cloud.

01:09:50   - Right.

01:09:50   - I mean, it didn't, and it also doesn't pull over your,

01:09:52   so I got into this conversation online.

01:09:55   The big thing that it,

01:09:56   the biggest sacrifice you make now

01:10:00   is that your iWatch, your Apple Watch activity data

01:10:05   does not make its way over.

01:10:07   - Which is terrible.

01:10:10   That doesn't make any sense at all.

01:10:11   - It's terrible.

01:10:11   - That doesn't make any sense at all.

01:10:12   - And everyone said privacy, and I was like,

01:10:13   I just wish there was an option to opt in,

01:10:15   to sync that to the cloud,

01:10:17   and bring it over to my new iPhone.

01:10:19   - Yeah, and one of the things

01:10:22   that I've seen people complain about,

01:10:24   and this isn't my complaint,

01:10:25   is I've seen people complain about,

01:10:28   and somebody made like a diagram and posted it to Twitter,

01:10:30   where it was like in 2007,

01:10:32   from like out of the box to using it,

01:10:36   your, you know, the original iPhone,

01:10:38   It was like three things, you know,

01:10:40   three little screens you went through,

01:10:41   and then boom, you're at the home screen.

01:10:43   And now there's like 21 steps that you go through.

01:10:46   But I don't, that's not the part that I find terrible,

01:10:49   'cause I actually, I understand that when they say,

01:10:52   "Hey, do you want to allow location?"

01:10:55   I understand why they do that, and it takes,

01:10:57   it's just a tap.

01:10:58   So I don't mind that you say,

01:11:00   "Yes, I want to allow location.

01:11:02   "Yes, here's my iCloud username and password."

01:11:07   Yes, you can share my data with developers.

01:11:10   That's not my problem.

01:11:12   But given that they're already making

01:11:15   you go through those steps, I don't find that to be a problem.

01:11:18   My problem is with the fact that once you're past that,

01:11:24   it takes so long and it's indeterminate for all

01:11:27   of your stuff to come over.

01:11:29   And you've got all these apps that are darkened out

01:11:31   because it's like they're coming,

01:11:34   but they're not there yet, but you don't see any progress.

01:11:36   - You mean when you restore it?

01:11:38   - Yeah, when you-- - When you sign in and yeah.

01:11:40   - Yeah.

01:11:40   - If you don't select setup as new.

01:11:42   - Right.

01:11:43   I just don't see for the Apple Watch Health stuff,

01:11:46   I don't see why that isn't an option at that point too,

01:11:49   where what do you wanna do with your Apple Watch?

01:11:51   Do you want to just keep it on the iPhone,

01:11:55   which is more private,

01:11:57   or would you allow us to store it

01:12:00   in your iCloud account online, which--

01:12:04   That's all I'm saying, I just want an option.

01:12:07   - Right, and I don't see, it certainly is private.

01:12:10   I mean, I don't want, you know,

01:12:12   and I realize that if there's some kind of bug

01:12:17   in, you know, on Apple's server-side stuff

01:12:20   that someday somebody, there might be some kind of breach

01:12:23   that would let that stuff out,

01:12:25   and I wouldn't want that to happen.

01:12:27   But to me, it's no more private than,

01:12:30   in fact, for me personally,

01:12:32   I would consider it less private than my email, which I have at Mac.com.

01:12:36   Or your contact list.

01:12:37   Or my contact list, or my iMessages.

01:12:40   I actually use iMessage more than I use my Mac.com email.

01:12:43   So the contents of my iMessages are far more.

01:12:46   And I guess the whole iMessage history isn't stored on cloud.

01:12:49   But iMessages aren't—right.

01:12:50   Yeah, iMessage history isn't—

01:12:51   But my email is—if it was something I could opt into, I would.

01:12:55   I trust Apple enough that I would trust it.

01:12:57   But your email with Apple is on their servers, not—

01:13:00   Yeah.

01:13:01   Not others.

01:13:03   >> Right, but they certainly host things.

01:13:05   They do host things that are private.

01:13:07   >> Right.

01:13:08   >> I don't see why my Apple Watch data can't be.

01:13:13   >> Yeah, I mean, I just wish, even if it was just like for the one time sync.

01:13:18   And then they delete it or something, I don't know.

01:13:22   I don't know enough about that.

01:13:24   But yes, that is the one annoying thing I did not get from the restore.

01:13:30   And also, iMessage history.

01:13:31   You can sync all your old messages.

01:13:36   But other than that, I'm really happy with my setup

01:13:40   as new iPhone.

01:13:41   It's like a whole new world.

01:13:42   It's like a whole new world.

01:13:45   It's a tempting way to clean up all the apps you're not

01:13:48   using, too.

01:13:48   Yeah, and it really makes you think

01:13:50   about what the best apps you use.

01:13:52   And I redid my whole home screen, and this is all I use.

01:13:57   lot of Google, but a lot of Google and social networks, basically.

01:14:02   Right. And yes, the Starbucks app.

01:14:06   What a pain. It's such a pain in the ass to set up.

01:14:11   The Starbucks app?

01:14:12   Wait for the sync. No, no, no. To set up a new device and have all those apps sync over.

01:14:16   To set up a new device. Yeah.

01:14:17   I find it easier. I do it. See, and so for example, with iPads, I never, I almost never restore from a backup.

01:14:23   I just always start the iPad fresh.

01:14:25   So like the iPad Pro that I've been using,

01:14:28   since whenever they seeded the review unit.

01:14:31   It's a lot easier to do than with an iPhone

01:14:33   'cause I don't feel like you're giving things up.

01:14:34   You're not giving things up like your message,

01:14:36   well, I guess you are giving up somewhat

01:14:38   of your message history, but I like the fact that--

01:14:40   - Right, but that's probably not your main device for that.

01:14:42   - Exactly.

01:14:43   And--

01:14:45   - And actually, I did the same for that Pro.

01:14:49   When I did the iPhone reviews,

01:14:53   I have to think, no, you know, for the iPhone reviews,

01:14:55   I didn't restore from backup.

01:14:58   And then when I started using it as like my phone

01:15:01   for a little bit, I did restore from an old backup

01:15:03   because I didn't wanna test the battery life in my test

01:15:06   with a, I just wanted to do it completely clean.

01:15:08   But yeah, but yeah, most of the time

01:15:13   when I've got new phones, I do a restore.

01:15:16   And my wife has done a restore and her like,

01:15:19   and that's why I think it's also ridiculous.

01:15:21   Because in some of those restore files, they have crazy things in there.

01:15:24   The files can be like, I think her last one was like 60 or 70 gigs.

01:15:30   Because she had done the restore of, you do the restore, it's all your photos that were

01:15:34   stored on the phone, videos, everything.

01:15:38   Even photos that were in your iMessages.

01:15:43   And sometimes those, I had at one point had one of her files on my computer and it was

01:15:47   taking up a ton of space.

01:15:49   yeah they can definitely get big but that's 70 gigs is really big because

01:15:54   they don't back up some of the stuff they don't back up like your iTunes stuff

01:15:57   because they you know yeah they can sing that right they can sync it from the

01:16:02   server but that's part of the process though that I hate is that it's

01:16:05   indeterminate when that's going to finish there's nowhere to go where it

01:16:09   shows you a progress bar that says here's all the stuff that we are

01:16:12   are restoring and here's what state it is.

01:16:15   - Right.

01:16:16   I mean, for most people,

01:16:20   a lot of this stuff should be in the cloud.

01:16:22   Other than the apps.

01:16:23   I mean, the apps are also in the cloud.

01:16:24   You just have to manually go into iTunes

01:16:27   and select which ones you want.

01:16:28   That's what I did.

01:16:31   I mean, into the App Store.

01:16:33   - Yeah.

01:16:34   - I'm very happy with my decision to set up as a new iPhone

01:16:38   and I encourage all listeners to do the same.

01:16:41   - Yeah, it seems it's--

01:16:43   - Other than if you're gonna be very upset

01:16:44   about your Apple Watch data.

01:16:46   Why do I keep calling it the iWatch?

01:16:47   Should I just call it the iWatch?

01:16:48   - Didn't Tim Cook-- - Why would be like

01:16:50   that person that keeps calling it the iTouch?

01:16:53   - Tim Cook slipped and said iWatch

01:16:55   on one of the events this year.

01:16:56   I forget which one, but might have been like at WWDC.

01:16:59   But at some point earlier this year,

01:17:01   Tim Cook slipped and almost got the word

01:17:03   all the way out of his mouth before he corrected himself.

01:17:06   - It makes you wonder, were they gonna call it

01:17:08   the iWatch at some point?

01:17:11   - Probably. - Yeah, I suspect so.

01:17:13   - I mean, obviously we do it because that was like

01:17:15   what it was rumored to be called for so long.

01:17:18   - Right.

01:17:20   Yeah, I think what happened is that there was a,

01:17:23   I think, well, who knows,

01:17:25   'cause this is one of those things

01:17:27   where who knows who the people are,

01:17:29   but clearly there's a contingent within the company

01:17:33   that has won out that has decided

01:17:36   that the whole i-prefix thing is dated.

01:17:41   And maybe they were opposed to it all along, who knows,

01:17:44   and that it was a Steve Jobs thing.

01:17:45   Like, you know, one thing you know,

01:17:49   this is one of the things we miss

01:17:51   without Steve Jobs there, is that when Steve was there,

01:17:55   you knew with certain things like that

01:17:58   that he must have liked it.

01:17:59   Like, there's no possible way they would have used

01:18:02   that i-prefix for the iMac, the iPod, the iPad, the iPhone.

01:18:06   anything that had that eye prefix,

01:18:08   you know that Steve liked it,

01:18:10   because if he didn't,

01:18:11   there's no way they would have used it.

01:18:12   Whereas who it is that's made them decide

01:18:15   to get away from that, who knows?

01:18:18   Is it Schiller, is it Johnny Ive,

01:18:20   is it Schiller and Johnny Ive, who knows?

01:18:22   But somebody obviously doesn't like it anymore.

01:18:25   But I think that there must have been some people

01:18:27   who do like it and were like,

01:18:29   "Wait, that's what we're known for.

01:18:30   "People are already calling it the iWatch.

01:18:32   "We haven't even told them we're doing it yet."

01:18:35   Yeah, I think people like it. It's just, I don't like that I keep saying it, but it's

01:18:43   just like, that's what I call it.

01:18:46   Yeah, it's like the eye touch. There was no eye touch. There's never been an eye touch.

01:18:50   See, I never fell for that one.

01:18:53   I never called it that either. I mean, also, it's like that sounds wrong. I always thought

01:18:56   it sounded wrong.

01:18:57   Yeah, I even write it. I say it all the time, and it's gotten better over the years, but

01:19:02   iPad is so close to iPod where I've had podcasts where I've been talking about the iPad and

01:19:09   just said iPod like 10 times and whoever's on the show with me is like, "You know you

01:19:14   keep saying iPod?"

01:19:15   And I'm like, "I do?"

01:19:18   It just is filed under the same cells in my brain and they're like, "My brain says, 'Close

01:19:26   enough.'"

01:19:27   It's a thing from Apple.

01:19:28   - The iPod Pro.

01:19:30   - Yeah, exactly.

01:19:31   - Yeah, this actually reminds me, so like yesterday,

01:19:35   there's some internal email chain on our team and,

01:19:40   oh, I know, we got an email from a VR company

01:19:42   and they were basically like trying to take your music

01:19:44   and make it into a VR visualization.

01:19:46   And so it started talking about like,

01:19:48   oh, remember those visualizations in iTunes?

01:19:51   You know, the music visualization?

01:19:53   So turns out those are still there

01:19:55   because everything is still in iTunes.

01:19:57   And someone on our team went into iTunes

01:20:02   and found the UI quilt or whatever the icons are,

01:20:08   the .RSRC files, I'm pulling this up right now.

01:20:14   And you can see in there all the old,

01:20:17   like it has support still for all of the old iPods.

01:20:21   And it's amazing to look at.

01:20:24   I'll forward you this.

01:20:26   It has like, you know, all the way back to,

01:20:30   it's got the original, it's got the original Apple TV

01:20:33   in here, Shuffles, iPod Video, the U2 iPod.

01:20:38   It's great.

01:20:42   - The U2 iPod.

01:20:45   - Remember that?

01:20:46   It's a great U2 iPod.

01:20:47   - It was tremendous.

01:20:49   - Yeah.

01:20:52   Yeah, just tons, I mean, my guess is it's because

01:20:56   these are all still supported in iTunes.

01:20:58   Yeah, the first Apple TV is amazing.

01:21:02   - That's really crazy.

01:21:05   That's almost Microsoftian in terms of

01:21:08   backwards compatibility.

01:21:10   - I'll send you these, I think you should have access to it.

01:21:15   Maybe you wanna post them.

01:21:17   - Okay.

01:21:17   - Yeah, they're, and then they have like the little icons

01:21:20   we were looking for, we were wondering if the little

01:21:22   burn icon for burn to CD was still there.

01:21:26   And it's not there anymore.

01:21:28   - Boy, when's the last time they sold a machine

01:21:32   that could burn a CD?

01:21:34   That's been a couple of years.

01:21:36   - You still can burn it though in iTunes.

01:21:38   - Right, you just have to have a third party.

01:21:40   - If you have an external doc, yeah.

01:21:41   - Right.

01:21:42   All right, before we go too far into the weeds on iTunes,

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01:24:54   route dotnet slash TTS. So go check them out if you host your own email. What else is on your

01:25:02   your mind Joanna? What else is on my mind? I really don't know what's on my mind right now.

01:25:14   I was talking about using the iPad mini. If you could only take one iPad with you on a trip,

01:25:22   which one would it be? Let's say you're going away for a week, you're gonna be away from home

01:25:28   for a week?

01:25:30   Well, I'm weird because I don't read on an iPad.

01:25:35   Like, I don't read books on an iPad.

01:25:37   So I have the Kindle Paperwhite, which I love.

01:25:41   So I would probably bring that Pro,

01:25:44   and I would try to not bring my Air.

01:25:46   I mean, am I going on vacation?

01:25:48   Where am I going?

01:25:49   That's probably actually what's really on my mind.

01:25:52   I'm going on vacation in a week and a half, and I can't wait.

01:25:55   All right, well then there you go.

01:25:56   I'm exhausted.

01:25:57   Which one are you going to take?

01:25:58   So it's not even hypothetical.

01:25:59   - Yeah, I'm going to Cabo.

01:26:02   I'm going to probably bring,

01:26:06   I'll bring the Pro if I still have it

01:26:10   and I haven't sent it back.

01:26:13   I mean, I just don't think I would,

01:26:16   yeah, for watching Netflix or watching any downloaded movies

01:26:25   we did that as well.

01:26:26   I'm preferring it over the air that I bought two years ago.

01:26:31   Should I sell that?

01:26:36   Do you think I should sell that air?

01:26:37   Probably, right?

01:26:39   - I should sell all of this stuff.

01:26:40   I have so much stuff and I just keep it all

01:26:42   and just hoard it here in my office.

01:26:44   - You hoard it.

01:26:45   - And you know, by the time--

01:26:47   - So do I.

01:26:48   I mean, I don't sell, I did sell my iPhone 6.

01:26:51   I did it for a story, but I pretty much would have.

01:26:54   That's what I think I'm gonna be doing going forward.

01:26:56   I still haven't decided if I should go to get into the upgrade program.

01:26:59   Um, have you, have you, is that, are you on that plan?

01:27:03   No, I, I actually still own one of every iPhone ever made because I've bought

01:27:10   everyone for myself and, uh, I've kept them all.

01:27:14   In fact, I have more than one of everyone because I have some of Amy's as well.

01:27:18   Some are Amy's we've given away to like family members.

01:27:22   I don't think we've ever sold one, but we've given them away to people like her younger

01:27:28   sister and stuff like that.

01:27:31   She had one that she broke.

01:27:32   So we don't have two of everyone.

01:27:35   So I'm thinking about doing this basically my own upgrade plan.

01:27:40   Everyone else should be on the Joanna Stern upgrade plan where I basically buy the phone

01:27:44   outright, then hopefully sell it right before the event. Use an

01:27:52   old phone. Use that new money to buy the new phone. That's

01:27:59   basically what I sold my six, my 64 gig six, right before the

01:28:05   event for 520 something dollars on SWAPA. It was a good

01:28:11   experience. Way more money than you'd get on one of those

01:28:14   other sites. I got completely scammed on eBay, so I didn't use eBay.

01:28:19   You did get scammed on eBay?

01:28:20   Oh yeah, totally scammed on eBay.

01:28:22   Really? Tell me about that.

01:28:25   Yeah, I put it up for sale on eBay. The guy, of course, claiming to be from Nigeria. Well,

01:28:34   no, he didn't tell me he was from Nigeria. So the guy who buys it, it says he lives in

01:28:41   Boston and that he's buying the phone for $600. That's probably where I should have

01:28:46   been tipped off because it was like more than I had put it up for. And so he then, this

01:28:51   is actually hilarious because this was all for a story. I was basically just putting

01:28:54   it up there to test out eBay for a story. And they say he says he's in Boston. I'm like,

01:29:01   okay, he says, Oh, I can't send the money through eBay. Something's wrong with it. I

01:29:06   I need to send it through PayPal.

01:29:08   Okay, that's fine.

01:29:11   Then he says, oh, I can't send it through the right PayPal

01:29:15   because eBay doesn't own PayPal anymore.

01:29:17   I was like, that has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

01:29:21   - It is true, it's true, but it's not.

01:29:23   - It's true, but that doesn't have anything to do with any,

01:29:25   like whatever it is.

01:29:27   And then ultimately sends me a phishing PayPal email

01:29:31   that says he sent me the $600 through PayPal.

01:29:36   And there was no real transaction

01:29:39   that happened through PayPal or through eBay.

01:29:42   We just tried to--

01:29:44   - You didn't send him the phone though.

01:29:47   - No, no, and I don't think in the end,

01:29:49   I don't think he was actually after the phone.

01:29:51   I think he was after some sort of information

01:29:53   that I would have either clicked on

01:29:55   when I clicked on that PayPal phishing thing.

01:29:58   Yeah, yeah, and then gave me a whole story like,

01:30:03   oh, instead send the phone to Nigeria

01:30:05   because my cousin is there and gave me a whole story about that. But I was actually I know

01:30:15   I can actually forward you the email says I let me see the PayPal. The really what actually

01:30:24   ended up happening, which was really I was very upset about from eBay was he had gotten

01:30:28   my phone number. Yeah, and that was that was where I, you know, the scam stuff happens

01:30:35   and you need to be on the lookout for weird PayPal spoofing email addresses.

01:30:41   His name is Stanley Bates.

01:30:45   In quotes.

01:30:46   Yeah.

01:30:47   Stanley Bates from Boston.

01:30:50   I knew obviously that something was really fishy when he wanted to send it through this

01:30:55   weird PayPal looking thing.

01:30:58   It looks pretty real to be honest, but the address says salesafety@usa.com.

01:31:03   - Right.

01:31:03   - Anyway, what I was really annoyed about was,

01:31:08   eBay has this loophole where,

01:31:10   after you've finished a transaction with someone

01:31:12   and bought something and said you're going to buy this item

01:31:16   or whatever and have the account,

01:31:18   there is a way using your listing number

01:31:21   that you can look up their phone number

01:31:23   and their email address.

01:31:25   So he had been, he texted me, yeah.

01:31:28   - Yeah, I was not happy about that.

01:31:32   But in the end, I sold my iPhone 6.

01:31:35   And then I used that money to buy a new iPhone 6s this past weekend.

01:31:39   And so who did you sell it to?

01:31:40   Swappa?

01:31:41   How do you spell that?

01:31:42   Yes, swappa.com.

01:31:43   S-W-A-P-P-A.

01:31:44   Yeah, this was all first story.

01:31:49   It was right before the iPhone event.

01:31:51   I wrote a piece about the best ways to sell your phone.

01:31:54   Right.

01:31:55   But it...

01:31:56   I mean, obviously introducing a middleman, definitely, you know, they're in business.

01:32:02   So you're selling to them for less than what they're going to resell it for.

01:32:07   And then in theory, if you could sell this is like the whole spirit of eBay.

01:32:11   In theory, if you could just find the person who wanted to buy it, you could sell it to

01:32:15   them for some price in between and make money.

01:32:18   I'll send you the article that swap is, is a marketplace, an open marketplace.

01:32:23   So you are selling to another person.

01:32:26   Oh, really?

01:32:27   Yeah.

01:32:28   Exactly. The middleman options like Gazelle or you you sell or

01:32:33   what are the many other ones next worth or I cracked, they

01:32:37   won't give you as good of a value as an eBay or an Amazon

01:32:41   marketplace or swap.

01:32:42   Yeah, I'm not familiar with that because I just hoard all of mine.

01:32:46   Right. Like in like an idiot.

01:32:48   I had a great experience with swap. Actually, it was I had

01:32:51   said on the listing that I would prefer it with someone in New

01:32:54   York City and found a guy and we met in a very public place in New York and he bought

01:33:00   the phone right there. Not a legit guy, not Stanley Bates from Africa.

01:33:07   So if you met in person, was the transaction still digital though? Where like he...

01:33:12   Yeah, he had sent the money on PayPal before. Legit, I saw it clear in my PayPal account.

01:33:18   Right.

01:33:19   Yeah.

01:33:20   That sounds great.

01:33:21   Yeah, I mean, you know, and like that's what this year, you know, I think back on like,

01:33:27   what were some of the big themes of the year, you know, in smartphones, I just did this

01:33:32   buying guide, and it was like, all phones became great.

01:33:36   Most, you know, most of these Android phones are great now.

01:33:40   You know, the iPhone became even better.

01:33:43   And the biggest deal was like how we buy our phones through carriers now, right carriers

01:33:48   decided, screw these contracts.

01:33:54   Whether people really start upgrading their phones more frequently, I'm not so sure.

01:33:59   It's still not the easiest thing to navigate those deals.

01:34:04   Certainly Apple's program seems like the best of them all.

01:34:08   But yeah, I mean, how we buy and pay the carriers was certainly a big change of 2015.

01:34:16   I mean, I'm still with Verizon because I still think I get the best service with them.

01:34:28   But I'm happy to say I won't be in a contract with them soon.

01:34:32   Yeah, I'm out of I've not been in a contract with them for a while.

01:34:36   That was the decision.

01:34:37   I made this decision like a year.

01:34:39   Was it a year ago?

01:34:40   Or two years ago?

01:34:41   I forget when but no, I think it was a year ago.

01:34:46   But we stopped buying phones on contract even when we had the option to do it.

01:34:53   Pay the whole price and we will pay you.

01:34:56   We have a family plan with Verizon.

01:34:58   We'll just pay that and just keep it all on the up and up and pay up front.

01:35:04   I'm still in the... because I'm in a family plan and we signed it when the 6 came out.

01:35:10   So I'm still stuck in that contract.

01:35:15   which then hopefully we can go to these new bucket data plans and be better.

01:35:22   Do you get good Verizon signal at the journal's office?

01:35:29   Yeah, I get pretty good signal for all in the office here. I'm on the sixth floor.

01:35:36   When I'm in New York, I find that it is a block-by-block crapshoot

01:35:42   whether I have cell signal and this is with my Verizon phone.

01:35:45   And didn't that didn't used to be the case. Maybe it's just the

01:35:48   places in Midtown where I tend to be I don't know. But it's

01:35:52   it's not necessarily bad. Like like the way that AT&T used used

01:35:56   to be right horrendous in New York. I mean, like truly

01:35:59   unusable. Like can't believe can't believe this. Anybody

01:36:03   even gets by with this service, which I don't think is true

01:36:06   anymore. But it's not like that. But it's definitely not like it

01:36:10   is for me here in Philadelphia. In Philadelphia, I get pretty

01:36:12   strong signal almost everywhere.

01:36:14   Yeah, I mean, the thing I've noticed about Verizon is maybe I

01:36:19   don't have as many bars everywhere, like as many bars as

01:36:22   I'd probably have with AT&T. But I get like better service and

01:36:27   pockets where there usually isn't service. So like in the

01:36:29   elevator, I always get service in my building with Verizon, it

01:36:32   always drops with AT&T. And also on the subways here on my subway

01:36:38   route to work, I have Verizon service and not always AT&T.

01:36:41   Oh, see that's different here in Philly.

01:36:44   In Philly, I think AT&T bribed somebody and has exclusive cell service in the subway.

01:36:50   Oh, really?

01:36:51   Yeah.

01:36:52   So you guys have-

01:36:53   They even have the subway.

01:36:54   I don't even know how.

01:36:55   I've never even heard of such a thing, but in Philadelphia, the sports complexes where

01:37:01   you'd go see the Phillies or the Eagles or the Sixers and Flyers, they're all right next

01:37:06   to each other.

01:37:07   and it's way down in South Philly at the end of the line.

01:37:11   You can't go, you just ride the subway south

01:37:14   and at the last stop you get out.

01:37:16   And that subway station is named like AT&T station.

01:37:20   So like-- - That makes sense.

01:37:22   - Yeah, but I think that part of the deal--

01:37:24   - Isn't that the same where the Giants play

01:37:26   in San Francisco, what's the name of that stadium?

01:37:29   - Levi's Stadium.

01:37:31   No, no, no, no, oh no, that's the 49ers.

01:37:35   The Giants play at AT&T--

01:37:37   - AT&T Park, yeah. - AT Park, right?

01:37:40   - I wonder if it's the same there.

01:37:41   - Yeah, I wonder if they have exclusive cell towers

01:37:45   in the stadium, I don't know.

01:37:47   - Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

01:37:51   We're gonna deal with the 5G,

01:37:53   the competition for 5G next, so.

01:37:55   - When do you think that's coming?

01:37:58   - I don't think so. - I don't pay attention

01:37:59   to stuff like that.

01:38:00   - I thought they've been saying 2016,

01:38:03   some of the tests are gonna happen,

01:38:07   I think Verizon's been saying tests happening in 2016.

01:38:12   Oh God.

01:38:16   Yeah, you know, these things happen in waves.

01:38:20   It's gonna be, it'll be another fun year of more stuff

01:38:24   that is promised the next year.

01:38:27   - Let me take one break before we wrap up the show

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01:41:13   Did you see that the Zuckerbergs announced

01:41:18   that they're gonna give away 99% of their fortune?

01:41:22   - I did, I did.

01:41:24   I'm looking at, I was actually just looking at that article

01:41:26   just because the baby picture.

01:41:27   I was really just looking at the baby picture.

01:41:30   - Yeah, they announced it coinciding with the birth

01:41:34   of their first child, it's a daughter's,

01:41:37   and it is an adorable picture.

01:41:39   I'm a sucker for babies.

01:41:40   - I know, me too.

01:41:41   And I like the name too, Max, for a girl.

01:41:45   - Yeah, yeah.

01:41:46   And so they've announced in a letter to their daughter

01:41:52   that they will be giving away 99% of their fortune,

01:41:55   which is very noble.

01:41:57   I know like the Gates, the Gates is I think,

01:41:59   have pledged to give away 95% of their fortune.

01:42:03   And I know that the Gates Foundation

01:42:04   already has like $41 billion.

01:42:07   They've already given an enormous amount of money

01:42:10   to fund their foundation.

01:42:11   - 'Cause he's saying over his lifetime.

01:42:13   - Yeah, and I think, and at the start,

01:42:16   he's saying he's going to give up to

01:42:18   or donate up to a billion dollars

01:42:21   in stock a year for the next three years.

01:42:26   And I guess part of that, again,

01:42:28   to cycle back to Wealthfront,

01:42:30   that some of this stuff is like SEC mandated,

01:42:33   that if you're gonna talk about stuff like this

01:42:35   with a publicly traded company,

01:42:37   you've gotta announce it in advance.

01:42:39   - But I think it's something that, again,

01:42:46   another little bit of a theme of the year,

01:42:48   so nostalgic for the year.

01:42:50   I'm just like, I think I just want the year to be over

01:42:52   so I can go on vacation.

01:42:54   But it's a socially conscious move by Zuckerberg,

01:42:59   obviously, and a really important one.

01:43:01   But it's also, you feel like that's a little bit

01:43:04   of a change that's been happening in Silicon Valley,

01:43:06   and especially at Tim Cook's Apple,

01:43:09   more and more the way he's, you're laughing.

01:43:12   - I am laughing, 'cause I have a point to make here,

01:43:15   but keep going.

01:43:16   - But do you know-- - It's definitely a change.

01:43:18   - It's a change, right?

01:43:19   I mean, like, and I feel like also like coming out of,

01:43:23   you know, Tim Cook's socially conscious Apple,

01:43:26   where, you know, when he spoke at our conference in October,

01:43:29   he spent a lot of time talking about how, you know,

01:43:33   it's Apple's job to make the world a better place,

01:43:36   which is like, obviously Apple's always thought about that

01:43:38   as a fight through technology,

01:43:40   but you got also the sense like he wants to do that,

01:43:44   even just in his position of power,

01:43:47   as the CEO of one of the most powerful companies

01:43:50   in the world, if not the most powerful,

01:43:53   richest company in the world.

01:43:54   His message there was really impactful, I thought.

01:44:00   - I find Tim Cook to be an incredibly sincere person.

01:44:05   And I actually think when you listen to him,

01:44:09   especially when you really, don't just read the transcript,

01:44:12   but if you can actually see him talk on video,

01:44:14   or like you said at a conference,

01:44:16   and just hear him talk.

01:44:17   There is a sincerity in his voice

01:44:21   when he talks about things like that.

01:44:23   And I know he's said it many times that in his office,

01:44:27   he's got portraits of Martin Luther King Jr.

01:44:30   and Bobby Kennedy.

01:44:33   And when he talks about that, and he's said it many times,

01:44:36   and if you just read it, you might think

01:44:38   that that's just a thing that he wants to say.

01:44:41   - Right, like it's marketing talk.

01:44:43   - Right, but when you hear him talk about that,

01:44:45   He gets choked up in a way.

01:44:47   And when he talks about Apple's products,

01:44:50   he doesn't sound as sincere.

01:44:51   And I don't mean that he doesn't mean it,

01:44:53   but he actually is less fired up and emotional

01:44:56   when he's talking about, say, how he traveled to Europe

01:45:00   a couple weeks ago using just his iPad Pro and his iPhone

01:45:04   as his only devices.

01:45:05   And I think he did.

01:45:06   I really think he's the type of person

01:45:08   where he really, he wouldn't lie about that.

01:45:09   He wouldn't say that if it weren't true,

01:45:11   if he secretly had a MacBook Pro in his hotel room.

01:45:14   He wouldn't say it.

01:45:15   I really think that's true.

01:45:17   But there's a certain rehearsed tone to his voice

01:45:22   when he's talking about their products like that.

01:45:23   And when he talks about the social stuff,

01:45:26   you could see his blood start to boil a little.

01:45:30   - No, I totally, and actually,

01:45:32   I actually just pulled up our live blog from the conference

01:45:35   and I didn't summarize a lot, but I said,

01:45:37   it doesn't only sound like marketing speak

01:45:41   when he is up there.

01:45:42   He truly wants to make a push for human rights

01:45:44   and making the world a better place.

01:45:47   And I can't remember specifically the points he made.

01:45:52   But yes, I totally agree with you.

01:45:54   The way I came out of that interview

01:45:59   where he was grilled on everything from the car

01:46:01   to the iPad to the Apple TV and how

01:46:04   he's going to put down the cable companies, just thinking,

01:46:09   OK, this guy wants to mostly, though,

01:46:11   make the world a better place and use Apple as, you know, as a technology company to help

01:46:17   do that. So yeah, I think just like, you know, it's cheesy, but it does feel a little bit

01:46:23   of a different vibe. I don't know.

01:46:25   He's always had this reputation. But before he really became, you know, certainly, you

01:46:31   know, when he became CEO, he obviously became much, much more public. But he spoke on stage

01:46:37   a few times before that. But he was, you know, a lot more of a mystery before he took over

01:46:42   as CEO. But he had a reputation as being fearsome, a fearsome negotiator, the sort of person

01:46:49   who in a meeting, you know, even if it's just within the company that, you know, you better

01:46:53   be prepared when you show up for a meeting with him or he's going to hand you your hat,

01:46:56   you know. You don't see that when he's on stage talking about Apple's products. When

01:47:03   When he's talking about the products, he's very, very genial.

01:47:06   There is this very friendly, courtly,

01:47:08   southern demeanor that comes out.

01:47:10   And it's funny because when he talks about

01:47:12   these social issues, which is a much more,

01:47:17   the actual topic is humane,

01:47:22   that's when I can sense the fearsome person that he can be.

01:47:30   It's like his frustrations with these social issues

01:47:33   around the world boil to the surface and he can't hide it.

01:47:37   It doesn't come across as genial at all.

01:47:38   It comes across as, wow, I can see why people

01:47:41   are scared of this guy.

01:47:42   - Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, and it was a year ago,

01:47:47   I mean, it was actually a year ago right after

01:47:49   our conference that he had come out, you know,

01:47:52   and that letter, you know, which truly had absolutely

01:47:57   nothing to do with the fact that he was the CEO of Apple.

01:47:59   I mean, it did, it had a lot about,

01:48:01   of course it had to do with who he was,

01:48:04   but that letter was just so well written and so heartfelt.

01:48:09   You got a vision of who he was.

01:48:17   After many people thought,

01:48:21   or as many people try to still explain who Jobs was,

01:48:25   this guy's just doing it.

01:48:29   He's putting it all out there.

01:48:31   - So like you say, that this sort of,

01:48:33   a social, I don't know how best to put it,

01:48:39   but there's a change at the very top

01:48:44   of the Silicon Valley industry to be socially minded.

01:48:48   And to put your money where your mouth is

01:48:50   and actually do things like pledge 99% of your fortune

01:48:53   to these causes.

01:48:54   I've made me laugh when I laughed a couple minutes ago

01:48:57   'cause I was thinking that the old way is

01:49:00   like the Larry Ellison way, which is to buy an island

01:49:06   in Hawaii like a James Bond villain.

01:49:09   - Right, this is all mine.

01:49:11   - Right.

01:49:12   - And also I have a sailboat.

01:49:14   - Right, I've pledged my fortune to America's cups,

01:49:19   you know, $500 million racing yacht,

01:49:24   which I will be watching--

01:49:25   - This is my yacht and you can look at it.

01:49:28   - Well, this is my racing yacht,

01:49:30   which I observe from my yacht yacht.

01:49:35   - Right.

01:49:36   (both laughing)

01:49:38   You can peek at my yacht

01:49:40   through your small little phone screen,

01:49:42   but I peek at my many yachts through my major window

01:49:47   above 10 other yachts.

01:49:50   - So the other thing that made me laugh though

01:49:51   is when I saw that the Zuckerbergs were pledging

01:49:55   to give away 99% of their fortune,

01:49:58   I thought, A, I thought, would I do that

01:50:02   if I were in his position?

01:50:04   If I had somehow, if Daring Fireball were worth

01:50:09   as much as Zuckerberg's stake in Facebook,

01:50:12   would I be willing to pledge to give 99% of it away?

01:50:16   I would like to think that I would.

01:50:18   I'm not sure that I would.

01:50:20   I feel like nobody can really say what they would do

01:50:23   unless they were actually in that position to do it.

01:50:25   I don't know that I would.

01:50:26   But then my second thought turned to,

01:50:28   what if I was young Max and my father had this fortune?

01:50:33   How would I feel about him pledging to give it all away

01:50:37   before I was even old enough

01:50:39   to maybe make a counterargument?

01:50:42   Like, why couldn't you have waited until I was

01:50:44   even just a teenager and I could maybe articulate

01:50:48   argument that maybe we should dial that number back a bit.

01:50:51   Yeah, in 15 years when Max is looking at this Facebook post through his holographic VR Oculus

01:50:58   headset that Zuckerberg has also made another 98 billion dollars off of, he'll be like,

01:51:08   "Dad, I'm going to need that money."

01:51:10   Or she.

01:51:11   Yeah, she.

01:51:12   I'm sorry, I keep referring it to...

01:51:15   Yeah.

01:51:16   I'd love the name Max for a girl, but it's hard.

01:51:18   - I do too.

01:51:19   It's a good name for her.

01:51:20   It's a great name.

01:51:21   But I really do feel like if my parents

01:51:24   had that sort of fortune,

01:51:25   I really would have wished that they would have waited until,

01:51:29   I'm not saying don't do it.

01:51:30   I'm just saying maybe hear my side of it

01:51:34   before we decide what percentage of the fortune to give away.

01:51:38   - I'm sure she will have plenty, plenty of money

01:51:42   to live comfortably.

01:51:45   Right, I totally realize comfortably, I totally realize that when you're talking about truly outsized fortunes, like yeah, Zuckerberg's stake and Facebook and Gates, you know what Gates owned, it still owns in Microsoft, that 1% is truly still a monumental fortune. Right? I'm just saying it may not be buy your own island in Hawaii, you know, from Larry Ellison fortune, which I really do kind of see the appeal of.

01:52:14   - Well, I mean, I think they live in Palo Alto.

01:52:18   God knows, we don't know what will happen

01:52:21   to the property value there.

01:52:23   - Right, you might need by the time--

01:52:25   - We just don't know.

01:52:26   Actually, we do know.

01:52:28   - By the time Max Zuckerberg is an adult,

01:52:31   she might need a billion or two dollars

01:52:33   to buy a regular-sized house in Palo Alto.

01:52:37   - They probably, probably just a small little portion

01:52:41   of a yard in Palo Alto.

01:52:43   I don't know. I don't know enough about, well, I do know enough about what's been going on in the San Francisco Valley real estate market. But yeah, I mean, certainly, I know there's been a lot of scrutiny about the way he set it up. It's an LLC versus it being actually a charitable organization or I don't know. I know there's been scrutiny today, but I just kind of just thought it was great news yesterday.

01:53:10   - Wait, what was, oh, the Zuckerberg news.

01:53:13   - Yeah, the Zuckerberg news.

01:53:14   You know how our industry works.

01:53:17   - Right.

01:53:18   - And I'm actually, you know, I'm not on that side

01:53:20   of the industry where I cover really any of that, frankly.

01:53:24   So I just read the articles and move on.

01:53:27   - Yeah, same here, and then I make jokes.

01:53:30   - Right, about.

01:53:32   - The one last thing that is in the news is,

01:53:37   before we sign off, is that there's,

01:53:40   It's so much news about it, so much speculation,

01:53:43   it seems like it's gonna happen

01:53:44   that Yahoo is going to spin off

01:53:47   and sell off a bunch of its units.

01:53:51   - Yeah.

01:53:52   - And I can't help but think that's a good thing,

01:53:55   but it really makes me think,

01:53:57   it's just big picture, what is Yahoo?

01:54:00   Like I don't, you know what I mean?

01:54:02   Like, you know, it's so easy to compare it with Google

01:54:05   or AKA Alphabet, which I still find difficult

01:54:09   to wrap my head around.

01:54:10   And I realized that that's not one thing,

01:54:11   but I still, I kind of get the company.

01:54:15   Like I get it what Alphabet,

01:54:19   I'm gonna call them Google, the hell with it,

01:54:20   but I get what Google does.

01:54:22   I get that they have this amazing search engine,

01:54:26   which to me is still arguably,

01:54:28   it might be the greatest invention

01:54:29   in the history of the industry, is Google web search.

01:54:32   And I know that I give Google a lot of crap

01:54:34   on Daring Fireball a lot of the time,

01:54:35   and people think I'm sort of, you know,

01:54:37   because I tend to like Apple stuff,

01:54:39   and I tend to be a little bit more cynical

01:54:43   about Google stuff.

01:54:45   When I just look at the broad picture

01:54:46   of everything that we have at our fingertips today,

01:54:48   like if you could go, you know,

01:54:50   if Ben Franklin time traveled and came here today,

01:54:53   what's the first thing you would show him?

01:54:55   I might show him Google.

01:54:56   Like that there's this box

01:54:57   where you can just type whatever you want into.

01:55:00   And you know, maybe I have to explain typing to him first,

01:55:02   but I think he'd get it.

01:55:04   But that you can just print these--

01:55:05   - I think you'd have to explain the computer first.

01:55:08   - Right.

01:55:09   - The phone.

01:55:10   - But once you got that.

01:55:12   - That's so amazing to think about.

01:55:13   - But it is, it's truly, you know, from our childhoods,

01:55:16   it's truly still a piece of science fiction that we have

01:55:19   that you could just type natural language questions to

01:55:23   and get the answer.

01:55:24   It's truly amazing.

01:55:25   I get that they have this and that they make money from it

01:55:29   with the ads that they show on it

01:55:30   and that it's at billions of people around the world

01:55:33   using it, so therefore tons of money.

01:55:35   and I get their moonshots in terms of, you know,

01:55:39   that they're banking on things that might become huge.

01:55:42   Like if they have a self-driving car platform

01:55:44   that can be to cars what Android is to phones,

01:55:48   that's tremendous, I get it.

01:55:51   I don't get Yahoo.

01:55:53   Like I don't get what it, I don't,

01:55:55   why do people go to Yahoo anymore?

01:55:56   I don't get it.

01:55:57   - I don't think they do.

01:55:58   I mean, I know they do, but like they do

01:56:01   because they're older and they know it

01:56:04   or it's already preloaded on their computers?

01:56:08   That's why, right?

01:56:10   I don't know.

01:56:11   Are there other reasons?

01:56:12   - I don't know.

01:56:13   I honestly-- - Their email,

01:56:14   like their email was there from many, many years ago?

01:56:16   I mean, that's like why people still go to AOL.

01:56:19   - Right, like the side of that you and I don't do,

01:56:22   like you're a product person.

01:56:24   You write from the, hey, how do you, you know,

01:56:27   you wanna-- - Yeah.

01:56:28   - What do you wanna get?

01:56:29   I'm a product person.

01:56:31   I write about how do you use this stuff.

01:56:32   We don't write the business stuff.

01:56:33   - I mean, I review services.

01:56:34   I mean, I do tons of services stuff.

01:56:36   And I can't remember the last time

01:56:38   I've recommended a Yahoo service.

01:56:41   - Well, that's what I mean. - And I've looked at them.

01:56:42   And I've looked at them.

01:56:43   I mean, even I gave Flickr a very,

01:56:46   I mean, Flickr still has some great things.

01:56:47   I gave it a really fair shake

01:56:49   in the photo comparisons earlier this year

01:56:51   when it was, you know, Google Photos and Apple Photos,

01:56:53   and it wasn't as good.

01:56:55   And then, I mean, it's like,

01:56:57   but also people don't think about that anymore

01:56:59   when they think Yahoo.

01:57:00   They don't think about the services on their phone.

01:57:02   It's covered as a business story, right?

01:57:07   It's the business reporters talking about this.

01:57:09   And you know, Wall Street pressure on it.

01:57:11   And you know, Kara Swisher has tremendous sources,

01:57:15   you know, at Yahoo.

01:57:16   And it's the intrigue and speculation

01:57:18   as to how much support does Marissa Meyer

01:57:20   still have from the board and that sort of thing.

01:57:23   But looking at it from my perspective is like,

01:57:25   just what's cool and what is good to use?

01:57:29   And what would I recommend to people

01:57:32   who follow me and look to me for advice

01:57:34   or something like that,

01:57:35   or what would be interesting for me to write about

01:57:38   because it's such a cool thing.

01:57:40   I can't remember the last time that anything

01:57:42   that Yahoo was involved with even hit my,

01:57:45   whatever parts of my brain light up

01:57:47   when I see something cool.

01:57:48   - Yeah. - Clicker, I guess.

01:57:50   I guess the last time was when--

01:57:51   - Clicker.

01:57:53   I mean, wasn't, Yahoo's not powering the weather anymore

01:57:56   on the weather app?

01:57:57   In iOS? - No.

01:58:00   No, I don't think so.

01:58:01   - I think they switched to the Weather Channel.

01:58:03   Yeah, because they got,

01:58:05   I think I had better worldwide service or something.

01:58:09   - Yeah, that would have been the only Yahoo service

01:58:13   I probably used every day since whatever, you know,

01:58:18   since using Yahoo as a search engine 15 years ago.

01:58:23   - The iOS stocks app still is based on Yahoo data.

01:58:27   - Okay.

01:58:29   I mean, so that's one thing they have on the phone.

01:58:32   - It would be really like,

01:58:37   Yahoo just picks up my videos.

01:58:42   Yahoo, I get a lot of video views on Yahoo.

01:58:46   So thank you for that Yahoo.

01:58:48   - I just, I don't get it.

01:58:52   And I feel like, I feel like, and again,

01:58:55   maybe it's just my, me being obsessed

01:58:57   with my perspective on things,

01:58:58   but I just feel like all of this business side speculation

01:59:03   on what Yahoo should do or whatever,

01:59:07   is got it all backwards,

01:59:09   and that it really has to start with products.

01:59:11   And that's, if there's anything I'm disappointed

01:59:13   in Marissa Meyer for, is I really kind of had hoped that,

01:59:17   from what I knew of her beforehand,

01:59:18   that she was product focused,

01:59:21   and I really thought that she would bring that to Yahoo,

01:59:23   but it just doesn't seem like she has.

01:59:25   - I think she did.

01:59:27   I think she really, I mean, if you think about

01:59:29   when some of the big attention that she had gotten

01:59:32   when she first started was a flicker,

01:59:34   a big flicker redesign, she spoke at that.

01:59:38   I remember I interviewed her

01:59:41   after they knew flicker redesign, and she introduced it.

01:59:46   And that was like a couple months after she took over.

01:59:48   And then there was a new email thing,

01:59:51   she was involved in that, I remember that.

01:59:53   And then I don't remember anything else.

01:59:56   - Yeah, or at least she tried to at first,

01:59:58   but it's like as the years have gone on,

02:00:00   it just doesn't seem like that's happened.

02:00:02   - I don't know if I could share the story.

02:00:04   Actually, this is funny.

02:00:05   I'm gonna share it.

02:00:05   I got an email.

02:00:07   I was always on this podcast, I'm like,

02:00:09   I feel, I mean, this is what's amazing about your podcast.

02:00:11   It feels like just talking to you

02:00:12   and you really don't think about that hundreds of,

02:00:15   you probably have thousands and thousands of viewers,

02:00:17   I don't know, listeners.

02:00:18   I mean, I know you're--

02:00:20   - I think, I haven't looked in a while.

02:00:22   I probably should.

02:00:23   I think it's somewhere around--

02:00:24   - There's a lot of them.

02:00:24   70 to 80,000 to listen to most of the episodes.

02:00:26   - Yeah, that's crazy.

02:00:28   But like I sometimes forget that they're old.

02:00:31   - Wait, says the woman who writes for a newspaper

02:00:34   with a circulation of what?

02:00:37   I mean the journals-- - Three million or something.

02:00:38   - Yeah, I was gonna say the journal,

02:00:40   the last I checked, has like a daily circulation

02:00:42   of three million.

02:00:43   - Well, this just feels like, you know,

02:00:46   we're more intimate here.

02:00:47   They cut all my words.

02:00:48   So I got an email.

02:00:53   I had someone who used to work for me and they were applying for a job at Yahoo.

02:00:58   And they sent, you know, they want me to give some feedback and, you know, reference stuff.

02:01:04   And in the email it said, Marissa Mayer is going to be looking over this.

02:01:09   And I thought to myself, that is really sad.

02:01:13   Like, why is Marissa Mayer looking over a tech reporting position here?

02:01:19   And I don't have anything.

02:01:21   I mean, I had a lot of nice things to say about this person who used to work with me.

02:01:25   But I just thought I wrote something like really sarcastic back to the recruiter too.

02:01:30   And I wonder if Marissa Mayer ever did read my review of that single tech review where

02:01:36   they were going to hire.

02:01:37   >> I don't know.

02:01:40   >> Not a very interesting story.

02:01:41   I don't know if I should have shared the story.

02:01:44   >> That's fine.

02:01:44   But she definitely has a reputation as a micromanager.

02:01:47   >> Right.

02:01:50   That's such an overused term, but as somebody who would do something like that and get involved

02:01:57   in the wanting to approve.

02:02:03   I've heard that story before.

02:02:04   I have heard that at Yahoo that she wanted approval over, I don't know, almost everybody

02:02:09   who got hired anywhere that at some point, and it became like a gating factor because

02:02:13   obviously she's busy and you want to hire somebody for a certain team and all of a sudden

02:02:18   And it's almost like what developers go through

02:02:21   with like the app store where like your app,

02:02:24   you just wanna fix a bug.

02:02:25   Like you just wanna hire somebody to do this.

02:02:27   And in the meantime, it's like a seven day wait

02:02:29   before it percolates to the top of her inbox

02:02:32   and she can look at it.

02:02:34   - Yeah, I mean, I know there was a big,

02:02:39   she had a big focus on the new Yahoo news.

02:02:43   That was another big product launch

02:02:45   that she was very involved in.

02:02:47   And that's actually a huge part of their operation.

02:02:50   And actually, this is really how I think of them

02:02:52   when I think about it, 'cause I know a number of people

02:02:54   in the media industry have gone to work for them.

02:02:56   A lot of anchors, a lot of on-air talent from TV networks

02:03:00   have gone to work for them.

02:03:02   - David Pogue.

02:03:04   - David Pogue, of course.

02:03:06   And they've built a good team over there.

02:03:10   - Yeah, I guess that is-- - But that's, I don't think--

02:03:13   - But that's not-- - But it's not enough.

02:03:15   - Yeah, it's not enough to make them as big as they are.

02:03:18   - Right, or to be as in the ring

02:03:23   with Google and Apple and Facebook.

02:03:25   - Right.

02:03:27   - And Microsoft.

02:03:28   - Yeah, I totally agree.

02:03:31   But yet somehow it feels to me like there's a potential

02:03:35   there that they could be.

02:03:36   - Yeah.

02:03:39   - But I don't see it.

02:03:41   - But that's, you know, like again,

02:03:43   When you think about, when I think about

02:03:46   what's been going on with the big players

02:03:48   in tech and products, Apple, Google, Microsoft,

02:03:53   I don't really consider Facebook,

02:03:55   Facebook's in there obviously,

02:03:57   and then the other big companies,

02:03:58   but when you think about the year,

02:04:01   a lot of it was, there wasn't necessarily

02:04:05   anything majorly new.

02:04:08   Everyone's trying to compete to do a lot of the same things.

02:04:12   who can do it better, who can also do it more securely

02:04:16   and more private, give us more privacy.

02:04:18   That was a big source of the competition this year.

02:04:21   Certainly Apple wanted to play to that.

02:04:23   But when you think about where the real innovation

02:04:28   or developments happened this year,

02:04:29   it wasn't that kind of year.

02:04:32   And what is gonna be that sort of future

02:04:37   for some of these companies?

02:04:39   - Yeah, I don't know.

02:04:41   VR is gonna be an interesting one.

02:04:43   - Yeah, this was the year of

02:04:47   watches becoming like a real thing.

02:04:51   Everybody is--

02:04:53   - But even then, was it a huge thing?

02:04:55   - I don't think so, not yet.

02:04:57   But it's obviously, that's like a real thing

02:05:01   that they're racing to do.

02:05:03   And the next, I think VR is definitely the next big thing,

02:05:07   because I think that the technology is very close,

02:05:09   and there's, unlike cars, there aren't regulatory

02:05:14   and legal hurdles to be passed.

02:05:17   The cars thing, everybody is working on,

02:05:19   but it's so complicated and requires laws to be rewritten

02:05:23   and just so much stuff that's gonna have to happen

02:05:28   in public that it's years out.

02:05:30   The VR thing is probably like a next year thing.

02:05:34   - Right, yeah, I mean, it was such a year of refinement.

02:05:38   And it's not a bad thing, like I don't wanna whine about it.

02:05:41   Like, I don't wanna be like, nothing happened.

02:05:43   It was such a great year for products becoming,

02:05:46   that were already good, becoming great.

02:05:48   You know, when I look at the iPhone,

02:05:52   it was already such a near perfect phone,

02:05:54   I think it could still be a little bit more perfect,

02:05:57   as I wrote in my review, but this is the device

02:06:00   and our smartphones are the things that power

02:06:02   so many of the other parts of our lives now.

02:06:06   They're just great.

02:06:07   - Yeah.

02:06:08   - You know, and that's what's happening

02:06:10   with computing too, right?

02:06:11   Like, we want our computers and our laptops

02:06:16   or our tablets to be even better

02:06:18   and more like some of the mobile devices we've had.

02:06:21   - And we want our mobile devices to be more like our PCs.

02:06:24   - Right.

02:06:25   So it's just like a year of more refinement, I think.

02:06:29   And again, I don't want to whine about it.

02:06:32   - No, and I think that the fact that it's sort of

02:06:34   like a refinement and it's created this,

02:06:39   the thing that we talked about earlier,

02:06:43   which is that it's made it harder to decide what to buy.

02:06:48   - Yeah.

02:06:49   - Because now that you can buy something like the iPad Pro,

02:06:53   which really can be more of a laptop,

02:06:56   but now that you can buy a laptop like the regular MacBook

02:06:59   that's as thin and light as an iPad

02:07:03   or something like the Surface devices,

02:07:06   it just blurs the line.

02:07:08   And the fact that different things are way better

02:07:11   on a giant-sized iPad Pro,

02:07:14   but other things are still better on an iPad Mini.

02:07:17   But it really doesn't make sense to tell somebody,

02:07:20   well, you should buy three iPads.

02:07:22   - I think you should live the John Gruber life,

02:07:26   buy three iPads.

02:07:28   - Right.

02:07:29   - Live with three iPads and a small iPhone.

02:07:32   One in every pocket and one in every compartment

02:07:35   of your backpack.

02:07:37   - Okay, my last question to you,

02:07:38   'cause I didn't ask you any.

02:07:39   - Okay. - What are you...

02:07:41   Okay, yeah, I'm gonna ask about the iPhone then,

02:07:45   'cause I think most excited about in 2016 for the iPhone.

02:07:50   - What am I most excited about?

02:07:55   Or what am I hoping for?

02:07:57   - Yeah, I think what are you hoping for for the iPhone?

02:07:58   I was gonna say in general for the next year,

02:08:00   but I specifically wanna ask you about the iPhone.

02:08:02   You know, it's interesting. I know that there's rumors that are already out, like the one last week about the no headphone jack, which is, you know, it's weird if it comes true and it'll be a minor headache, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not a big deal.

02:08:19   I find it interesting that there doesn't seem to be

02:08:21   any specific rumors about what's coming yet.

02:08:23   I guess my biggest hope is that it's a truly revolutionary

02:08:30   upgrade on the camera, that it really takes a step towards

02:08:38   being able to stand toe to toe with an SLR type camera,

02:08:43   not just point and shoots.

02:08:45   I feel like point and shoots have been taken out.

02:08:47   - Oh yeah, dead.

02:08:49   And now it's, you know, what can take like the,

02:08:52   you know, what can take, can we get an iPhone

02:08:55   that stands up to like a thousand dollar standalone camera

02:08:58   in terms of image quality and depth of field

02:09:00   and stuff like that?

02:09:01   And so something like that.

02:09:04   And I heard a while back that, you know,

02:09:06   and I know Apple bought this some company

02:09:09   or there's a patent that's out there or something,

02:09:11   but these ideas of use

02:09:14   and other people are doing stuff like this,

02:09:16   but having like two camera lenses and side by side

02:09:19   and that it can do like some kind of magic

02:09:22   when you take a picture by combining two images

02:09:24   and that that's the way that a device as thin as an iPhone

02:09:29   might be able to stand up to a truly big camera

02:09:34   with a bigger piece, a really big piece of glass

02:09:36   as the lens and a significant distance, yeah.

02:09:40   So that would be my biggest hope

02:09:41   is that it's all about the camera.

02:09:44   But I say that just purely from my own selfish

02:09:47   what I hope they do.

02:09:48   that has nothing to do with anything

02:09:50   that I have heard is coming.

02:09:52   What about you, what would you hope for?

02:09:54   - I mean, I wrote this in my review of the 6S.

02:09:59   The thing that bothers me the most about my phone

02:10:02   is battery life and having to worry about it.

02:10:04   I would be really happy if they started to discuss

02:10:11   or work in wireless charging.

02:10:15   but I just don't feel like the solutions out there right now

02:10:19   are very Apple.

02:10:20   - The biggest thing that people keep talking about

02:10:24   with this, and that ties into the removal

02:10:26   of the headphone jack,

02:10:26   the biggest thing people are complaining about with that

02:10:28   is that they frequently want to listen to audio

02:10:31   while they charge their phone.

02:10:33   Like you're sitting on the train or on an airplane

02:10:36   or something like that,

02:10:37   and you have your phone is 40%.

02:10:40   Well, if you can charge it,

02:10:41   but you're sitting there on the train or wherever you are.

02:10:45   My son does this all the time.

02:10:46   Jonas, all of his devices are under 20% at all times.

02:10:50   So he's always watching YouTube with his headphones on

02:10:54   while he's charging his device.

02:10:56   If they went to wireless charging, that would solve it.

02:11:00   If there was like an Apple Watch type thing

02:11:03   that could charge, connect it to the Apple logo

02:11:05   or something on the back of your phone,

02:11:08   then it solves the problem where you have the lightning jack

02:11:10   for your headphones and you can wirelessly charge.

02:11:14   - Yeah, I mean the big problem with the wireless,

02:11:17   and I've tested a lot of these,

02:11:18   I did this big piece on chargers last week.

02:11:21   It was actually thrilling in a way.

02:11:24   I tested like all these USB wall chargers,

02:11:28   but it was that all these wireless solutions

02:11:31   are just really slow.

02:11:33   Like it takes a long time to go from zero to 50%

02:11:36   with many of these.

02:11:38   - Right, the watch gets away with it

02:11:39   because the watch has just a teeny tiny battery.

02:11:42   - Exactly.

02:11:42   - Yeah.

02:11:43   - Yeah.

02:11:45   It'll be interesting.

02:11:47   - Yeah.

02:11:48   I could see that.

02:11:49   I would like to, you know, and if there's a second thing

02:11:51   that I would like to see, it would be

02:11:53   a rejiggering of their priorities on how much battery life

02:12:00   the phone should get.

02:12:02   I mean, it's very clear that what they've done,

02:12:04   'cause like the battery life doesn't get worse

02:12:07   year to year with iPhone, but it stays the same

02:12:09   unless you switch to the plus.

02:12:11   So they just keep making it thinner

02:12:13   and using the efficiencies of their newer technology

02:12:16   to keep the, you know, they keep making the device thinner

02:12:20   and keeping the battery life the same.

02:12:21   I would love it if they like effectively decided

02:12:24   to like multiply the battery life you expect

02:12:29   by like one and a half.

02:12:31   - And obviously this year they did a lot of it

02:12:33   through iOS 9 and software improvements.

02:12:35   And actually, you know, watchOS 2,

02:12:38   I've noticed the battery life being better on this thing.

02:12:40   But it seems like that's only going to get them so far.

02:12:45   Yeah, I think what I would like to see them, you know, like with the iPad, I

02:12:52   would almost said iPod there. They've long said 10 hours of battery life, you

02:12:56   get 10 hours of battery life from an iPad. I would love for them to just sort

02:13:02   of really double you know, like, double or like 1.5 the number that they tell

02:13:07   you can get from an iPhone and then engineer it from there.

02:13:11   Whether that means keeping the device as thin as it is now

02:13:17   or using new technology or something like that.

02:13:19   But I don't think that'll happen, though.

02:13:21   I would bet against that.

02:13:22   I think Apple is very much interested in chasing down

02:13:27   SLR quality photography.

02:13:29   So I feel like whether they'll do it next year or not,

02:13:32   at least my hopes are in alignment

02:13:34   with Apple's institutional priorities.

02:13:38   My hope for battery life though,

02:13:40   does not seem to be in alignment

02:13:42   with their institutional priorities.

02:13:44   Their institutional priorities, I think,

02:13:46   are still hyper-focused on thinness, yeah.

02:13:49   - Yeah, yeah, I agree with you there.

02:13:53   Well, we shall see.

02:13:57   - All right. - But I'm gonna go

02:13:58   on vacation first.

02:13:59   - That's great, I can't wait.

02:14:01   Oh no, wait, I'm not going.

02:14:03   You're not going.

02:14:05   Well, congratulations and enjoy your vacation.

02:14:07   Joanna Stern, thank you so much.

02:14:09   Vacation to CES.

02:14:10   I've never been.

02:14:13   Have we ever talked about this?

02:14:14   I think we did and I still can't believe it.

02:14:17   How have you never been?

02:14:18   I love Vegas, I love gadgets, and I've never been to CES.

02:14:22   It's long story short, it's because--

02:14:23   So we're opposite.

02:14:24   I hate Vegas, but I love gadgets.

02:14:26   Right.

02:14:28   Long story short, it's because--

02:14:30   Like I really hate it there.

02:14:32   It's because it used to be immediately after Macworld Expo.

02:14:35   And I did go to Macworld Expo, and there was no way

02:14:39   that I was going to do two of those things back to back.

02:14:43   And so I just never, ever developed any kind

02:14:46   of tradition of going to CES.

02:14:48   And any time it's ever occurred to me to maybe-- maybe I

02:14:54   should, maybe just one year I should go and write about

02:14:58   and podcasts like what it's like for an Apple-focused person

02:15:02   to go to this, more or less this consumer electronics show

02:15:06   that is everything that's not Apple in the industry.

02:15:09   Here's what's coming.

02:15:10   - But actually everything is around Apple.

02:15:13   - It's well more and more.

02:15:15   - Yeah, well I mean, you keep doing what you do best,

02:15:18   which is comment on the non-Apple stuff,

02:15:21   but always pretty much it has been the last couple of years.

02:15:25   There's always some strong Apple rumor

02:15:28   that seems to come out around CES.

02:15:32   - Yeah, it is true. - Remember last year?

02:15:35   Last year at CES, there was this big rumor

02:15:37   about what the MacBook was gonna,

02:15:39   the MacBook Air, what ultimately ended up being the MacBook

02:15:43   with the Air successor was gonna look like?

02:15:46   - Yeah.

02:15:47   - I don't know.

02:15:49   - Yeah, that they always somehow try to take the air

02:15:52   out of whatever else is going on, right?

02:15:54   - Yeah, or maybe the weeks just come around then,

02:15:57   I don't know.

02:15:58   So I would expect-- here's my guess,

02:16:01   is that this year's CES is going to be--

02:16:04   the story is going to be all about virtual reality, I think.

02:16:07   Yeah, definitely.

02:16:08   That's my guess.

02:16:09   And would it be shocking if a rumor leaked right before CES

02:16:15   that Apple has a team working on VR?

02:16:18   Yeah.

02:16:19   If they said nothing else except that,

02:16:21   that would not surprise me one bit

02:16:23   if a rumor like that was floated, you know, to say, you know, you know, one of the reporters

02:16:32   at the Wall Street Journal probably, you know, or something like that. Wouldn't surprise

02:16:36   me one bit. But anyway, I always, when it occurs to me that maybe I should go to CES,

02:16:43   it's always too late. Like right now, I think it's too late. Like everything's, all the

02:16:46   hotels are booked up and, you know, it's like the sort of thing you have to, you have to

02:16:50   to plan in advance and I'm not good at that.

02:16:53   - Right, yeah, well, I would say

02:16:56   you don't really need to come.

02:16:57   I would love to podcast with you from there.

02:17:00   - Yeah, you could do like a little video thing.

02:17:03   - It's pretty much, I mean, I love CES

02:17:06   because it is this time of the year

02:17:07   where everyone gets really excited about gadgets

02:17:10   and my favorite thing was like,

02:17:12   Neil I last year wrote this piece

02:17:14   or they wrote a piece on The Verge

02:17:15   where it was like gadgets are back

02:17:16   and like getting really people excited for CES

02:17:18   and was like, that's what I do all year.

02:17:21   Good thing I have a job again this year.

02:17:25   But it gets people really excited about what's gonna come

02:17:30   and then actually it all tapers down

02:17:33   and when you actually review the products

02:17:34   that came out at CES, no one really cares.

02:17:36   But there is always the excitement around CES.

02:17:40   - People can read your work at the Wall Street Journal

02:17:48   Wall Street Journal, that's the wsj.com.

02:17:51   What's the, to get to the section that you guys do,

02:17:54   what's the web address? - WSJD.com.

02:17:58   - WSJD.com takes you right to the Wall Street Journal

02:18:01   digital team. - Yeah, to the, yeah.

02:18:05   - And on Twitter, you are @joannasturn.

02:18:10   - I am.

02:18:11   - Thank you so much, Joanna.

02:18:15   - It was good to be here.

02:18:16   I'm glad we finally made it work.

02:18:18   We didn't talk about our favorite thing,

02:18:22   my favorite thing, the BlackBerry,

02:18:23   but I will come back to talk about that the next time.

02:18:26   - All right, do you think they'll still

02:18:27   be in business next time?

02:18:29   - Yes, they have the new Android phone,

02:18:30   and I gave it a pretty decent review.

02:18:32   - I...

02:18:34   Well, we'll see.

02:18:40   - We will see.

02:18:41   What holds them back?

02:18:44   they can just be another Android phone maker.

02:18:47   - Maybe, I think that ship has sailed though.

02:18:51   I think that if they had done that,

02:18:53   I think wasn't that what you wrote in your review?

02:18:54   I think that if they had shipped that phone four years ago.

02:18:59   - Definitely that is what I wrote in my review,

02:19:00   but I am always holding on.

02:19:03   Okay, third stand up thing, going to go.

02:19:07   - Okay.

02:19:08   (laughing)