The Talk Show

131: ‘If Only the Death Star Had That’ With Guest Rene Ritchie


00:00:00   Oh man, what a day.

00:00:02   Yeah, crazy.

00:00:03   We are recording on Wednesday the 16th show, probably be out tomorrow.

00:00:08   Wow, what's even happened so far today?

00:00:12   So far today, watchOS 2.0 has been postponed indefinitely.

00:00:17   My guess is for a few days due to some sort of last minute bug that has popped up

00:00:23   and which Apple is not describing.

00:00:26   - Yeah, it doesn't sound like a user-facing bug though.

00:00:27   It sounds more like a developer-facing bug.

00:00:30   - Do you think so?

00:00:31   - Yeah, and if you're on the GM or if you're on the beta,

00:00:34   you don't have any reason to be concerned about anything.

00:00:37   But if you remember last year,

00:00:38   I think there were problems with extension signing

00:00:41   and then with the health kit apps,

00:00:42   and it took them a week or so to figure those out.

00:00:44   - I was wondering if maybe it was some kind of bug

00:00:46   that affects the upgrade process.

00:00:48   - Maybe, I mean, the beta upgrade worked fine.

00:00:51   And it just, it seemed more like a not front-facing issue

00:00:55   they're a front-facing issue.

00:00:57   - Yeah.

00:00:57   I don't know though.

00:01:02   It's hard to say, but I think anybody who wants to complain,

00:01:05   bugs happen.

00:01:07   I mean, it's a hell of a lot better for Apple

00:01:09   to find a bug before it ships.

00:01:11   And obviously it's a little embarrassing for them

00:01:13   to have pre-announced the date and then have to yank it.

00:01:16   But compare and contrast with the,

00:01:18   what was it, 9.0.1 last year?

00:01:23   - Yeah, 8.0.1.

00:01:24   - Oh, 8.0.1, nine is this year, no.

00:01:26   I, God damn it.

00:01:28   - No, it's, might as well be a Monday.

00:01:30   - Remember the 8.0.1 last year came out

00:01:34   and it didn't break everybody's phone,

00:01:36   but for some subset of users

00:01:37   who were downloading it over the air,

00:01:39   it temporarily bricked their--

00:01:42   - It killed touch ID and it killed LTE.

00:01:44   So if you were Jessie Chari,

00:01:45   you noticed no problems whatsoever,

00:01:46   but if you're anyone else, you had issues.

00:01:49   - Wait, she doesn't get LTE?

00:01:51   - I don't think she uses her phone as a phone.

00:01:53   - I think it was just the phone call part.

00:01:54   - Oh, I got you.

00:01:56   Right, but her fingers did not register.

00:01:58   What else has happened today?

00:02:02   So iOS 9 is rolling out as we speak.

00:02:06   - Yes.

00:02:06   - And one interesting thing you mentioned

00:02:09   before the show started,

00:02:09   it does have a different build number than the GM

00:02:12   that Apple distributed, was that last week?

00:02:16   - Yeah, the GM is 40 and the release version is 44.

00:02:21   So obviously something minor at least in there changed.

00:02:24   So far so good on that from what I've seen.

00:02:27   - Yeah, absolutely, and if you do have the GM,

00:02:28   you'll get a software update.

00:02:30   It's very small, it's a few megabytes,

00:02:31   I think 100 megabytes or something.

00:02:33   - Yeah.

00:02:34   Content blockers are rolling out,

00:02:38   which I think is going to be a major,

00:02:41   it's just interesting to see how this is going to be

00:02:45   because this is the sort of thing that is going to change

00:02:49   a lot for people like me and you, maybe, I don't know.

00:02:54   - And it's also the only sort of app

00:02:56   that you can really look for this year.

00:02:57   I mean last year there was all sorts,

00:02:58   there were share extensions and action extensions

00:03:00   and widgets and the only really big new kind of app

00:03:03   you can get this year is Content Blocker.

00:03:05   So they're gonna get featured more than anything else.

00:03:07   - Right, in terms of, and it's funny too,

00:03:09   and I'll get to it because you've written

00:03:12   a massive, massive review.

00:03:14   But it does, it's one of those things though

00:03:16   that makes it hard to judge these OS releases

00:03:21   by based on, even if you just assume that the GM is good,

00:03:25   you know, is real, it's hard to judge the OS as a whole

00:03:29   until after it ships and you have some time to use it

00:03:33   with the real world stuff that ships.

00:03:36   In other words, nobody's gonna really form

00:03:38   a serious opinion of iOS 9 until after

00:03:43   the content blockers have come out

00:03:44   and people have picked the ones they want, if any,

00:03:47   and see how that affects their usage.

00:03:49   And there was ways to beta test them beforehand,

00:03:51   but it's like maybe you didn't get to beta test all of them.

00:03:55   - And you and I discussed this about the watch too,

00:03:57   like just testing complications

00:03:58   and how much that would actually change your workflow.

00:04:00   It's gonna be very different.

00:04:02   - Yeah, I thought the same thing

00:04:03   and I don't have any beta apps.

00:04:05   I don't even know if that was possible with the watch.

00:04:07   So I have been playing with watchOS 2.0 for a few weeks now,

00:04:12   but I haven't written anything about it

00:04:15   because I don't see how I can judge it

00:04:18   until after the complications come out.

00:04:20   And really, frankly, even just native apps in general

00:04:25   on the watch and see if it solves some of the,

00:04:28   just so slow to launch problems that we've seen

00:04:33   with the WatchKit 1.0 watch.

00:04:35   - Yeah, whether it's like slow apps

00:04:37   or whether the watch isn't the same kind of app platform

00:04:39   that maybe the phone or the tablet were.

00:04:41   - Yeah, it's just impossible for me at least

00:04:44   to make a judgment of it until after this shakes out

00:04:49   and we live with it for a while.

00:04:50   - Me calling what I write reviews is kind of half a lie

00:04:52   'cause most of them are just trying to explain

00:04:54   how things work and how you can juggle the different options.

00:04:56   - Yeah, I thought of that too

00:04:58   'cause I linked to your review at iMore,

00:05:00   your iOS 9 review, and it just says iOS 9 review.

00:05:04   And at this point, you're nine versions in

00:05:07   to writing these things.

00:05:08   You might as well not change it now.

00:05:10   But review, it sells it short in some ways,

00:05:15   and it's misleading in others,

00:05:17   because it's not really, review sort of is like,

00:05:19   is this good, is this bad?

00:05:20   And there's obviously some of that,

00:05:22   but it's really more just like, I don't know,

00:05:25   like everything you would wanna know about IO-Sign.

00:05:30   - Yeah, I'm just fascinated about the technology.

00:05:32   - Yeah.

00:05:33   Well, but you do more than just the technology, though.

00:05:35   You absolutely write about it

00:05:39   from the perspective of the experience.

00:05:43   Like it's one thing to just say here,

00:05:44   now you can do this and that.

00:05:47   But yours is more, look, I've been banging on this thing

00:05:51   for months, living with it, and here's what it's like.

00:05:56   Here's not just a list of what's new in the Notes app,

00:05:59   for example, here's what this enables you to do with it.

00:06:03   It turns it into a totally different app now.

00:06:05   - Yeah, absolutely.

00:06:07   - Just to name one example.

00:06:08   So when did you start using iOS 9 full time?

00:06:13   - Well, you made fun of me the day of the event

00:06:16   'cause I showed you that I put it on my phone already.

00:06:19   - That was WWDC.

00:06:21   - Yes.

00:06:22   And I put it on my carry and immediately,

00:06:25   I had no data signal and it took me a while

00:06:27   to get that working.

00:06:28   - Well, I think this year was actually

00:06:30   a pretty good one for that.

00:06:33   It's funny if anybody would have reason to install it right on day one and start living

00:06:39   with it, it would be someone like you or Federico, somebody who's planning on writing one of

00:06:46   these comprehensive, and I mean it sincerely, I mean book-length reviews of it, and you

00:06:52   know the rough timeline.

00:06:54   And again, this year we can talk about the fact that Apple's not having an October event.

00:07:00   The October event was always the one,

00:07:02   if there's only gonna be one event,

00:07:03   that's the one that was gonna be dropped

00:07:05   because September is just sort of set in stone

00:07:08   for the phones.

00:07:09   I mean, and again, you never know.

00:07:10   Something unforeseen could happen that would delay it,

00:07:13   but it was a pretty good bet that iOS 9 was gonna ship

00:07:18   sometime in the first two weeks of September.

00:07:21   - Yeah, absolutely.

00:07:22   I mean, this event going all the way back to the iPod days

00:07:24   is the holiday event for Apple,

00:07:25   where they set up everything that they expect

00:07:27   everyone's gonna buy for the holidays.

00:07:28   - Yeah, yeah.

00:07:29   even back to when they called it the music events.

00:07:31   - Yeah.

00:07:32   - You know, and it would just be, you know,

00:07:33   before the iPhone, it was this is when new iPods came out

00:07:36   and, you know, sometimes there'd be like a,

00:07:40   it would be weird, sometimes there'd be like a iWork

00:07:42   or something like that.

00:07:43   - Yeah, and they occasionally, like I think they had

00:07:44   the first Unibody Mac event in October,

00:07:46   but those were always, they weren't regular for a while.

00:07:49   They would just be when they had something to talk about.

00:07:50   - Right.

00:07:51   So anyway, somebody like you who wants to write down,

00:07:53   how many words was your review?

00:07:54   How many words?

00:07:55   - Like 22,000.

00:07:56   - So there you go.

00:07:57   And that's, again, that might be short for a book,

00:08:00   but if you printed it out,

00:08:01   it's a lot more book length than it is article length.

00:08:05   - Yeah, I did take stuff out,

00:08:06   like I took out stuff

00:08:07   that I thought was only developer appropriate

00:08:08   or was getting too far into the nitty gritty,

00:08:10   so I did cut a lot as well.

00:08:11   I just wanted to keep it small book length.

00:08:14   - I mean, like a typical,

00:08:16   I mean, it's hard to say what's typical these days

00:08:18   with the way stuff gets cut,

00:08:20   but something like a 4,000 word article,

00:08:22   if you're doing, like a freelance writer,

00:08:24   that's like a feature article in a magazine for length.

00:08:27   and I think books obviously range in thickness greatly.

00:08:30   But I think once you're measuring in the tens of thousands,

00:08:33   it's book length or booklet length rather than article.

00:08:37   - And iOS 8 is, sorry, iOS 9 is deceptive.

00:08:39   So I already did our Coles Notes version,

00:08:41   like this is the important stuff you need to know,

00:08:42   and I think that hit four, 6,000 words,

00:08:44   just doing the rough take.

00:08:47   - That's pretty amazing.

00:08:49   I think in broad terms,

00:08:52   I think everybody keeps trying to set the stage

00:08:57   that everybody who's writing about it

00:08:59   is trying to set the stage.

00:09:00   Just the basic expectation,

00:09:02   like for somebody who hasn't really been paying attention

00:09:04   all summer, which is actually not a bad way to go

00:09:07   if you're a lay person.

00:09:08   Take a look, take a listen at WWDC,

00:09:10   think about what interests you.

00:09:12   Tune out for the summer and wait to see what actually ships

00:09:15   because sometimes stuff drops and stuff like that.

00:09:18   But everybody trying to give people the lay of the land,

00:09:20   the basic gist is, okay, this is not like a radical upgrade

00:09:22   like Iowa 7, this is a year over year thing,

00:09:25   which is fair enough.

00:09:26   I don't disagree with that, but I don't think we're ever going to see an iOS 7 update again

00:09:33   for iOS.

00:09:34   I think iOS 7 was where they reset to a foundation to build on for years, I mean decades to come,

00:09:45   I think.

00:09:46   Yeah, I know I agree.

00:09:47   I mean if you look back in hindsight, maybe some of it was serendipitous, maybe some of

00:09:50   it was planned, but you couldn't get to iOS 9 without iOS 7 and iOS 8.

00:09:55   You needed the kind of an interface that could go through

00:09:57   the size class changes that could go from being a regular

00:10:00   to one of the smaller size classes.

00:10:04   And you needed, so much of iOS 9 is built on extensibility.

00:10:08   And I remember we talked last year about how transformative

00:10:11   extensibility could be, that it was literally uncoupling

00:10:14   features from apps.

00:10:16   It was setting them free from the binary and they're doing

00:10:18   everything from content blockers to Safari view controller

00:10:20   to the gameplay recording is to a lot of the privacy stuff

00:10:23   all being done through extensibility.

00:10:25   And all the search stuff is being done through continuity

00:10:27   because they're indexing our activity

00:10:29   so they can take us back to it.

00:10:30   They can use it as a reminder.

00:10:31   It's all coming together really well in iOS 9.

00:10:34   - Yeah, I think so.

00:10:36   But a lot of that really comes back to resetting,

00:10:39   just resetting the table for iOS 7

00:10:46   and saying let's get back to somewhere

00:10:48   where we can build on and they knew where they needed to go.

00:10:50   And some of that is just purely engineering

00:10:53   and it didn't require necessarily a visual refresh,

00:10:56   you know, like size classes and extensibility.

00:10:59   Obviously they could have done extensibility

00:11:01   with the old look, I mean it's nothing.

00:11:03   But I think it was worth it for them

00:11:07   and I think this is the way they thought about it.

00:11:08   It was worth it to do all this resetting at once

00:11:12   and then build from there.

00:11:14   - Yeah, I agree.

00:11:15   I mean I just can't even imagine green felt

00:11:17   or wood paneling changing from compact

00:11:20   to regular size class on an iPad with split view.

00:11:22   - Yeah, I mean, and now look at Mac OS X.

00:11:25   I think Mac OS X is a good comparison.

00:11:28   And it has had, there have been a few times over the years

00:11:30   where there's been a more significant visual refresh

00:11:33   than others.

00:11:35   Last year would be, for example, with Yosemite

00:11:38   going to a more, it's again, not really iOS 7 lookalike,

00:11:43   but more like, looks like a sibling to iOS 7.

00:11:47   And a few years before that, there was the one

00:11:51   where they got rid of all the metal

00:11:53   and having two different window types,

00:11:57   the aqua windows and the brushed metal windows.

00:11:59   But those weren't radical, right?

00:12:04   I don't, I think Yosemite maybe was arguably,

00:12:07   but none of the previous ones really were radical

00:12:11   in terms of having the sort of controversy

00:12:13   that iOS 7 really, almost the upheaval

00:12:17   and the wow, this looks all together

00:12:18   different sort of reaction.

00:12:20   And I think iOS 7, I think that this look,

00:12:23   I think it will evolve over time.

00:12:25   Everything gets stale and fashions change.

00:12:27   And obviously even just the system font this year changed.

00:12:30   So it'll evolve and there might be some year coming

00:12:32   where there's a more significant change

00:12:35   than in recent times.

00:12:37   But I really think that part of the plan

00:12:39   with the iOS 7 look and going to a much more simpler

00:12:43   and unadorned overall look was to get to something

00:12:50   that's a little bit less about trendiness

00:12:53   and a little bit more towards a design that's timeless.

00:12:58   Specifically so that they don't have to do things

00:13:02   like that again and that they can just keep iterating

00:13:04   like they have this year.

00:13:06   - I agree completely.

00:13:06   I look at it almost in architectural terms

00:13:08   and it's just got great bones now

00:13:10   and they can build out some differences.

00:13:11   They can put in San Francisco and it refreshes everything.

00:13:14   Or if they decide not to wait for Quantum Dot panels

00:13:17   and they go with OLED panels and they need a night theme

00:13:19   because that's better on OLED.

00:13:20   They can add all that in, but the structure, the physics,

00:13:23   the playfulness of iOS that they've built now,

00:13:26   I think that's a really long-lasting platform.

00:13:28   - Yeah, and I think it was definitely the intention,

00:13:30   and I think part of it is just the simple fact

00:13:33   that even with their vast resources now,

00:13:36   that a lot of the teams at Apple are still relatively small.

00:13:40   Johnny Ive's group is relatively small,

00:13:43   and it's always going to be relatively small.

00:13:47   and not having to worry about spending specific,

00:13:51   a lot of time every year updating the look of iOS

00:13:55   and Mac OS X and watchOS, just to keep 'em looking fresh,

00:14:00   trying to stick to something

00:14:01   that's a little bit more timeless,

00:14:03   even if it decreases the sort of trendiness like,

00:14:09   wow, that looks good again this year, this is new, you know?

00:14:11   Like, you do lose something marketing-wise

00:14:14   if there's not like, wow, that looks new every year.

00:14:17   But it saves them the time of having to just keep reinventing

00:14:20   the stuff they've already done

00:14:22   and lets them spend times on expanding.

00:14:26   Like last year they could expand

00:14:27   and spend a lot of time on a watch.

00:14:29   This year they could spend a lot of time on Apple TV.

00:14:32   - Yeah, no, absolutely.

00:14:33   And the interesting thing is that was a painful moment.

00:14:36   That took a huge amount of willpower

00:14:38   and a huge amount of effort,

00:14:39   and they turned that around in less than even a year.

00:14:41   And then they did another massive change with iOS 8

00:14:44   and built out all the new frameworks.

00:14:47   But now that's done and they can do things

00:14:50   that are super interesting.

00:14:52   And I think you need those moments.

00:14:53   You need those moments of this is what we thought

00:14:55   the platform was gonna be.

00:14:56   And six years, seven years later,

00:14:58   this is what we understand it is now.

00:14:59   And if we wanna go 10 years forward,

00:15:01   we need to build that out now

00:15:03   'cause it's only gonna get harder as we move on.

00:15:05   And they can do a gold phone or a rose gold phone

00:15:07   and that will appeal to people who just want a new color.

00:15:09   But the software inside it,

00:15:11   You know, yes, maybe the wallpaper will match

00:15:14   the rose gold or the gold or the new sport bands, whatever,

00:15:17   but the software itself will scale through all of that.

00:15:20   - Yeah, I mean, I know that this is,

00:15:21   in a lot of ways, a problematic analogy,

00:15:25   but if you just compare it to a paint of coat on a building,

00:15:28   I think for the first few years of iOS,

00:15:31   Apple was sort of not necessarily picking,

00:15:33   it wasn't like radically changing every year,

00:15:35   but they were going back and having to repaint

00:15:37   a lot of the building every year.

00:15:39   And I think with the iOS 7 look is like a longer lasting

00:15:43   coat of paint.

00:15:45   And then they can just go back and update some of the trim.

00:15:48   And so okay, now it's not Helvetica Neue,

00:15:51   it's San Francisco as the system font.

00:15:53   But the whole thing didn't have to get repainted.

00:15:56   - It feels almost like they switched from doing iOS

00:15:59   as a bitmap and made it a vector.

00:16:00   - Yeah, yeah, sort of.

00:16:03   I think that's a very good way of putting it.

00:16:05   And I think that fitting it in with the size classes

00:16:08   is part of that too.

00:16:09   I think that that Pixel Perfect stuff,

00:16:11   I was, you know, and I really do hope over the years,

00:16:15   I'm a fan of this design, I think it was the right thing.

00:16:18   I know there's still people who still complain about it.

00:16:21   But it doesn't mean that I've suddenly dropped it

00:16:23   and think that the old iOS look was bad.

00:16:27   I mean, there's certain aspects of it that I miss,

00:16:29   but it just, I don't think it gave them

00:16:34   the flexibility that they need.

00:16:36   - Yeah, and we can subjectively like or dislike

00:16:38   individual elements of the latest iOS or iOS 6 or 5, but objectively there were huge gains

00:16:42   that were made by going this direction.

00:16:44   Yeah. Let's take a brief break and then when we come back, let's talk about the event last

00:16:50   week. Maybe not spend too much time on it, but then we'll go on to iOS 9. But let me

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00:20:38   And anybody listening to this show this week,

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00:20:43   All right, so last week's event, you were there.

00:20:51   - Yes.

00:20:52   We've sat near each other.

00:20:54   I was wrong in advance.

00:20:57   I thought, you know, I think they'll do the same thing

00:21:01   they usually do, have the two events, one after another,

00:21:03   because it would be busy and because, you know,

00:21:07   otherwise they're not gonna be able

00:21:08   to talk about the Mac at all.

00:21:10   So I was wrong.

00:21:12   They're only having one event this year.

00:21:14   I'm almost certain.

00:21:16   And talking to friends behind the scenes,

00:21:18   that certainly is the plan.

00:21:20   If there is another public event this year,

00:21:22   it would be something that the,

00:21:24   addressing some kind of surprise.

00:21:25   But I was right, it made for a very busy event

00:21:30   and it left no time at all for the Mac.

00:21:32   - Yeah, no time for the Mac OS X was,

00:21:36   it was a Easter egg in Craig's email box.

00:21:39   - I caught that.

00:21:40   It's funny because I take notes

00:21:42   and it's funny when I rewatch the event,

00:21:44   I never once catch everything.

00:21:46   They're too dense, especially when they go fast like this.

00:21:49   So I always, there's always some things I caught.

00:21:51   I did happen to catch that.

00:21:52   So what was it?

00:21:53   Craig was up there.

00:21:54   - Yeah, and he was just demoing

00:21:58   the email preview abilities,

00:21:59   the hint, peak, and pop for 3D Touch.

00:22:03   And he did the preview on Phil Schiller's email,

00:22:05   and it had secret release date

00:22:06   for OS X El Capitan September 30th.

00:22:09   Don't let anybody find out.

00:22:10   - Yeah, and then I think it said the bottom note,

00:22:13   Apple Confidential.

00:22:14   - Yeah.

00:22:15   - That was about it for the Mac, though.

00:22:20   - In hindsight, I guess it makes sense,

00:22:21   and especially if they don't have new Mac hardware

00:22:26   ready to go later this year.

00:22:28   Although I think if they do,

00:22:29   and it's just Retina 21-GI Mac,

00:22:31   and minor refreshes to MacBook Pros or something,

00:22:35   they can just do those with a press release.

00:22:38   - Yeah, the MacBook shipped in March,

00:22:39   well, it was announced in March,

00:22:41   and Intel took so long to get Broadwell out,

00:22:43   and now they're just beginning to roll out Skylake

00:22:45   that it's hard to see that they have the chips

00:22:48   to make the sort of MacBooks

00:22:49   that they would wanna show off on a stage.

00:22:51   - Yeah, and otherwise there's not much left for an event.

00:22:55   I forget what other, a few other readers have sent in

00:23:00   as speculation, more or less--

00:23:02   - New routers?

00:23:03   - Yeah, who knows, I forget what somebody else,

00:23:06   it's just not possible, there's no way

00:23:07   that they can make an event that's worth it.

00:23:10   Would it have been worth it to have a separate event?

00:23:14   Now if they had held the iPads, including the iPad Pro,

00:23:18   I think they could have done it.

00:23:19   And then what they could have done, I guess,

00:23:21   although, maybe not.

00:23:23   See, I was thinking because there's a new iPad Mini 4,

00:23:27   which is now technically equivalent to the iPad Air 2.

00:23:31   - There's a slight processor difference,

00:23:33   but that's about it.

00:23:35   - That's interesting, and that's a new machine.

00:23:38   Actually, it does kind of make for a hard demo, though,

00:23:41   once you've shown off all the features

00:23:43   in the new OS on the iPad Pro.

00:23:45   So maybe it doesn't make for a good event.

00:23:47   Maybe part of it, you know, part of it obviously,

00:23:51   I think, talking to people behind the scenes

00:23:52   was that Apple really wanted to only have one event

00:23:55   because doing one event and putting all of the wood

00:23:58   behind that arrow is easier than doing two events,

00:24:01   even if one of them is sort of a smaller one

00:24:03   right there on Apple's campus.

00:24:05   But second, maybe that wouldn't have been enough to,

00:24:08   you know, maybe that would have left people, you know,

00:24:10   people who go and travel to get there

00:24:12   thinking this wasn't worth it.

00:24:14   - And the people who watch from home,

00:24:15   They're watching and they see 4K iMacs,

00:24:18   not as impressive as a 5K iMac.

00:24:19   The iPad Mini 3, it's not as impressive as the iPad,

00:24:22   sorry, iPad Mini 4, not as impressive as the iPad Air 2.

00:24:25   And then you have the iPad Pro, which is great,

00:24:27   but Apple is usually really good

00:24:28   when they have a double barrel event.

00:24:30   - Yeah, yeah, and I think it's just like last year's

00:24:34   Retina iMac, except smaller.

00:24:36   And it's just like last year's iPad Air 2, but smaller.

00:24:40   It isn't really, that's great if what you want is smaller,

00:24:43   but it doesn't really make for a demo.

00:24:46   - I will miss Craig getting up on stage

00:24:48   and saying OS X is available today.

00:24:51   But other than that.

00:24:52   - Yeah, yeah, the only thing really they would have left

00:24:54   to demo is to rehash, and I think that would be good,

00:24:57   but it just, I may not make for a great event,

00:24:59   is to just go through, here's the top 10 best features,

00:25:03   the 10 poll features in Yosemite.

00:25:05   Or not Yosemite, okay. - They didn't even do that

00:25:06   for iOS this year.

00:25:07   I mean, iOS didn't get any time.

00:25:09   - Yeah, they kinda, yeah, again,

00:25:11   'cause they went long enough as is,

00:25:13   they kind of skip that rehash of, you know,

00:25:16   what they call the tentapoles,

00:25:17   and usually it's 10 of them, you know,

00:25:19   but here's the top 10 things that we want you to know about.

00:25:22   And people forget, I know people sometimes complain about it

00:25:26   because they're like, "They showed all this at WWDC."

00:25:29   I think, you know, people who are really,

00:25:32   really cued into this, I mean, sometimes I get that feeling

00:25:35   too when I'm watching it,

00:25:36   but I totally understand why Apple does it

00:25:38   because that's how you teach people things.

00:25:40   You have to repeat it.

00:25:41   It's both a pedagogical axiom and a marketing axiom.

00:25:46   You have to make your point multiple times

00:25:48   to get it through to more people than you would.

00:25:53   - Absolutely, and it's not like Apple talks to us

00:25:55   very often, us being the greater community.

00:25:58   They just don't have a lot of air time.

00:26:00   So when they have that air time,

00:26:01   they wanna do that exactly.

00:26:02   Here's what we're gonna tell you.

00:26:03   We're telling it to you.

00:26:04   Did you see what we told you?

00:26:05   - Yeah. (laughs)

00:26:08   The event itself was, if I had known,

00:26:12   if I had somehow gotten advanced access

00:26:15   inside the facility and seen what they had built,

00:26:19   I would have been a lot less likely to guess

00:26:22   that they were gonna do two events this year.

00:26:24   - Yeah. - Like, it's hard for me

00:26:25   to, you know, in my write-up afterwards,

00:26:27   I don't think I'd, I had so much to cover,

00:26:30   but it's really hard for me to express

00:26:32   just how impressive the build-out inside

00:26:35   that the Bill Graham Civic Center was.

00:26:39   - Yeah, if you'd never seen the Civic Center without it,

00:26:42   I had never seen it before, I didn't know what it looked

00:26:44   like, so I went and looked at some other pictures

00:26:45   afterwards, and if you'd only ever seen it

00:26:47   without what Apple did to it, you may not appreciate it,

00:26:49   but they transformed that structure.

00:26:51   It's almost like a movie set when you come

00:26:52   into an empty warehouse and all of a sudden

00:26:54   it's The Force Awakens inside it.

00:26:57   - Yeah, that's a good way to put it,

00:26:58   that it was like a movie set.

00:27:00   They built a movie set for an Apple keynote room.

00:27:04   I was saying that they build a building within the building

00:27:06   and then maybe that's not right

00:27:07   because it didn't have an outside structure for you to see.

00:27:11   It was all inside.

00:27:13   So a movie set is maybe a better way to put it

00:27:15   because it was all meant to be seen from the inside,

00:27:19   like a movie set.

00:27:20   And the outside, who knows what it looked like?

00:27:22   You know, it was impossible to sort of see that.

00:27:24   - And from one direction, I mean,

00:27:26   people kept saying 7,000 seats,

00:27:28   but they had maybe 1,500, 1,700 available in there.

00:27:31   - Yeah, yeah, I think that was it

00:27:33   'cause it's, you know, they took up a bunch of that,

00:27:37   what would be the floor space for like,

00:27:39   if you wanted to hold a concert or something

00:27:41   with max, you know, and sell the most tickets,

00:27:44   you would just set it up an entirely different way.

00:27:46   I mean, it really was more like a movie set.

00:27:48   360 degrees all the way around.

00:27:51   Even the flooring, you know, the stadium seating

00:27:55   that we sat on was all built by Apple and temporary.

00:28:00   - Yeah, it's not like they have a big warehouse

00:28:03   Cupertino that they cart the stuff in and then put it away again for next year's event.

00:28:06   They built this stuff, they build it like bespoke every time.

00:28:09   Yeah, they even put in an air system so the building is not air conditioned.

00:28:15   And I was talking to somebody at Apple and when they were talking, you know, in preliminary

00:28:19   talks to maybe use this building, they were like, "Well, what's the air conditioning

00:28:22   situation?"

00:28:24   And the Bill Graham people were like, "Oh, it's easy.

00:28:27   It's great.

00:28:28   You just open the windows."

00:28:29   Yeah.

00:28:30   No, their events team is spectacular.

00:28:31   They really could run production for any major studio.

00:28:34   - I was thinking about this.

00:28:37   What do you think that costs them?

00:28:38   - Oh man, I mean just the air conditioning.

00:28:41   And we were actually joking at the event

00:28:43   that we'd rather the wifi went out

00:28:44   than the air conditioning 'cause it was so hot.

00:28:47   But it must have been in the millions.

00:28:49   I can't believe how high.

00:28:51   Tons of millions.

00:28:53   - I'm not in that field so I could be way off.

00:28:55   I'm guessing 10 to 15 million dollars.

00:28:58   - Doesn't sound crazy to me.

00:29:00   - Well and think about it.

00:29:00   what's a Super Bowl ad cost?

00:29:02   - Yeah.

00:29:03   - Like five million dollars and plus the production cost

00:29:06   to make the commercial.

00:29:07   So, you know, it's not unheard of for a company

00:29:10   to spend 10 to 20 million dollars on a TV campaign

00:29:13   or a commercial.

00:29:15   And Apple certainly gets super, you know,

00:29:18   well they get more than Super Bowl commercial exposure

00:29:21   out of these special events.

00:29:23   - And unlike a commercial, it has to be done live.

00:29:25   They have to get it right the first time.

00:29:27   - Right, but they don't have to share the day

00:29:29   with anybody else.

00:29:30   So instead of racing to, being one of 40 different,

00:29:33   all trying to be the commercial everybody's

00:29:36   talking about tomorrow, Apple knows that everybody's

00:29:39   gonna be talking about them tomorrow.

00:29:40   But I think spending 10, 20 million dollars on it

00:29:43   is not outlandish, and I think it looked like something

00:29:45   they might have spent 10, 20 million dollars on.

00:29:48   However long they'd rented the place out,

00:29:50   however many people it took to build it,

00:29:53   however much it cost to put all that stuff up.

00:29:57   I mean, the seats, again, I wrote this,

00:29:59   that I think that they just,

00:30:01   I don't know if they threw them out,

00:30:02   I don't know if there was someone they could donate them to,

00:30:04   but the seating that we sat in was all brand new.

00:30:07   I mean, and I don't know that there's a way to rent that.

00:30:10   Like it wasn't, they weren't chairs

00:30:13   that you can like pick up and move.

00:30:16   They were like rows of seating

00:30:17   that were connected to each other.

00:30:19   You know, there's certain types of folding chairs

00:30:21   that you can latch next to each other for ad hoc events

00:30:24   that you can take them down and stuff like that.

00:30:25   - Yeah, it didn't look like condo association seating

00:30:28   had used that last week.

00:30:29   - Right, and they all look, the ones I was in,

00:30:31   look around our section, they all look brand new.

00:30:35   But on the other hand, and some people,

00:30:37   when I wrote that, they were like,

00:30:38   well, maybe they're gonna use those on the campus

00:30:40   in their theater, and that's a good idea,

00:30:43   but they weren't that sturdy.

00:30:45   There was a lot of rock to them.

00:30:48   I mean, they were nice and they were cushioned,

00:30:50   but I'd be shocked if those exact seats

00:30:54   were the ones Apple has in their new theater on campus,

00:30:57   'cause they weren't that nice.

00:30:59   - They didn't look Johnny Ive team designed.

00:31:00   - No, they definitely did not.

00:31:02   And they also did not feel built to last.

00:31:05   But they were, it just was just an unbelievable build up.

00:31:11   - And the crazy thing is it wasn't just that.

00:31:12   Like if you ever go to CES and talk to them

00:31:14   about how much those booths cost,

00:31:15   they built the equivalent.

00:31:17   They had pods for the Apple TV demos,

00:31:19   little living rooms, and I don't know how many.

00:31:21   It looked like 10 or 20.

00:31:22   And those are all, it's like that's a CES style pavilion

00:31:25   as well as the event they're already running.

00:31:27   - Yeah, absolutely.

00:31:28   The screen was enormous, the stage and screen were enormous

00:31:33   and that's the sort of thing that's really,

00:31:35   I think it's impossible to gauge if you're not there.

00:31:38   And again, does it really matter that we were there?

00:31:40   Message-wise, no, but in terms of understanding

00:31:42   the scale of the show, it does,

00:31:45   because when you're on TV, watching the video,

00:31:48   it reduces that scale.

00:31:50   You're really just watching the slides go by

00:31:52   and you don't really see the size of it.

00:31:54   It was enormous.

00:31:55   It was so big that I noticed several times

00:31:58   that when they were switching to videos,

00:32:01   and they're like, you know,

00:32:02   like when one of the Johnny Iimes narrated videos,

00:32:04   that whoever was speaking, Phil or Tim or whoever,

00:32:09   would say, you know, now we wanna tell you about it.

00:32:12   They'd start playing it

00:32:13   while they were still standing in front of it,

00:32:15   because it was so big that it would create an awkward pause

00:32:19   if they waited until they walked

00:32:20   until they weren't in front of it anymore.

00:32:22   - Yeah, it was almost like an IMAX version

00:32:25   of a tech demo.

00:32:26   - Yeah, like ordinarily you would never, never,

00:32:28   and I think it had to come through rehearsals.

00:32:31   I think even like your instincts,

00:32:32   even as, you know, not that polished of a public speaker,

00:32:37   you would, it would occur to you,

00:32:38   I'm gonna hit the button to play this

00:32:40   after I'm off to the side.

00:32:42   But it was so big that they had to do it

00:32:44   while they were sort of standing in front of it.

00:32:45   - And because it was so big, they never,

00:32:47   at least I didn't even notice anybody.

00:32:48   Once the video played, they were so small in comparison.

00:32:53   - Yeah, yeah, oh definitely, definitely.

00:32:56   And I even thought that too while I was watching it

00:32:58   that it didn't make that big a difference

00:32:59   'cause you really just sort of saw it, you know,

00:33:01   little tiny bit of their silhouette instead of the screen.

00:33:05   It was a truly enormous screen.

00:33:06   Good sound, really good sound.

00:33:10   And again, that's a big build out

00:33:12   because it wasn't like there was a sound system in there

00:33:14   that they used, they put one in.

00:33:17   - They put like a couple of those new iPad Pro speakers

00:33:20   just in each corner.

00:33:21   Turned them to Macs.

00:33:23   And then the other thing, in addition to those cubicles they built, it was like off to stage

00:33:30   left was where they had all of these little living rooms to test Apple TV and iPad Pro

00:33:38   demos that were hosted by talented artists who already had exposure to the thing and

00:33:46   could show you what somebody who knows what the hell they're doing when they're drawing

00:33:49   can do.

00:33:52   And they were really nice, but it was real dark over there.

00:33:54   And then stage right, you went down a hallway,

00:33:56   and it was like you were entering a temporary Apple store.

00:33:59   And the most amazing thing is as you came down that hallway,

00:34:03   it looked like it was flooded with sunlight.

00:34:05   Did you notice that?

00:34:06   - Yeah, actually I didn't pick up that it was sunlight,

00:34:09   but there was almost like a golden glow coming in

00:34:10   as you walked through the room.

00:34:12   - I was waiting to get in, and I look,

00:34:14   and it was flooded with sunlight,

00:34:16   and I thought, remember that one time Apple

00:34:18   cut a hole in the wall at the Urban Buena Sweater Center

00:34:21   to get sunlight in there.

00:34:22   And I thought, oh, they must have cut a hole in the roof.

00:34:24   And then I thought, no, wait, that doesn't make any sense

00:34:26   because the Bill Graham Center has like three floors

00:34:30   above the floor they were on.

00:34:32   And it just, they put in like some kind of fancy

00:34:36   lighting system that gives off light

00:34:39   in the color temperature of sunlight.

00:34:43   - You gotta wonder if that was HomeKit.

00:34:44   There's just some guy there with Siri controlling all of it.

00:34:47   - I don't know, but again, I think it's sort of like

00:34:49   a movie studio quality lighting.

00:34:52   - Absolutely.

00:34:52   - Like the sort of thing that a TV show or movie would use

00:34:56   to simulate sunlight without having to actually

00:35:01   have sunlight.

00:35:02   - Again, that's all them.

00:35:03   They don't have an external events team

00:35:05   like some people do.

00:35:05   They don't hire anyone to put this together for them.

00:35:07   It's all internal.

00:35:08   - Yeah, and it's incredibly impressive.

00:35:12   I don't know, I thought so.

00:35:14   - Well, I agree completely.

00:35:15   - The other thing that was interesting,

00:35:17   and you and I talked about this,

00:35:18   is even with the seating for 1400,

00:35:20   they did not greatly expand.

00:35:23   In fact, I think they might have contracted

00:35:25   the number of media and analysts who were invited.

00:35:29   In other words, outsiders,

00:35:30   non-Apple people who were invited to the event.

00:35:32   - So I heard, and I didn't hear anything official,

00:35:34   but I heard that the constraint wasn't the seating

00:35:36   of the arena, but the capacity of the on-hands area,

00:35:39   that you just couldn't have that many people

00:35:41   in the Apple TV and the iPad testing areas at one time,

00:35:46   and that limited how many,

00:35:47   'cause you can't just have a bunch of media people there

00:35:49   and just never let them in.

00:35:51   So they had to figure out that number,

00:35:52   then that's as many presses they could invite,

00:35:54   and then the rest they used for engineers.

00:35:56   - Yeah, that actually, I did not hear that,

00:35:59   but that makes my experience, my firsthand experience,

00:36:02   that makes total sense to me.

00:36:04   'Cause I stayed until they so politely asked

00:36:08   - You, likewise.

00:36:09   - those of us remaining to leave.

00:36:12   And in the old days, that trick used to get you

00:36:15   some really good hands-on time with stuff.

00:36:17   I remember very specifically, and it's just funny

00:36:21   because Apple's back to having a keyboard

00:36:24   you can latch onto an iPad.

00:36:26   The first iPad, it was so hard to get time with them.

00:36:30   And you really just felt like there's so many people waiting

00:36:33   at every table that after you did get some time

00:36:35   and got to play with some things that it would occur to you,

00:36:38   it was so many people you just felt like a jerk

00:36:40   if you didn't hand it back over to the Apple rep

00:36:42   and get in line again somewhere else

00:36:45   or think about new things to do.

00:36:46   But by the end of that hands-on session,

00:36:48   Dan Morin and I had an iPad with the hardware,

00:36:52   the original hardware keyboard thing to ourselves

00:36:54   for, oh, I don't know, like a good 15 uninterrupted minutes.

00:36:58   And we got to play with as many things as we could,

00:37:01   test out keyboard shortcuts, and it was fantastic.

00:37:05   And there was nobody over our shoulder

00:37:06   because most people left.

00:37:08   That's not the case anymore.

00:37:09   Like, it was crowded and hard to get time with stuff

00:37:14   right up until they asked us to leave.

00:37:16   - Yeah, no, absolutely.

00:37:18   - And that's with just the people they didn't fight.

00:37:21   - And I heard also that they tried to have

00:37:23   much more international balance

00:37:24   in the media presence this time as well.

00:37:27   And when you look through the media,

00:37:28   it was obvious that there were people from Europe,

00:37:31   Asia, I mean, just everywhere.

00:37:33   - Yeah, a lot of people from Europe, clearly,

00:37:35   and a lot of people from Asia, clearly.

00:37:37   Yeah, and the story I heard about that

00:37:42   was that for years what they used to do

00:37:43   run simulcasts around the world. I don't know how many, but let's say they'd have one in London,

00:37:48   and they'd have one somewhere in Asia, maybe more than those two, maybe more, but at least

00:37:54   one in Asia and one in London. And that way people wouldn't have to fly as far. Someone from Germany

00:38:03   would only have to travel to London. And Apple has PR staff on those continents already, and that PR

00:38:10   our staff could man those events.

00:38:12   - But they were all here this year.

00:38:15   - Yeah, well the gist of what I heard is that more and more

00:38:17   the people from around the world,

00:38:19   even with the expense and time of traveling,

00:38:22   wanted to be at the real show.

00:38:24   They didn't wanna watch on a screen at the same time,

00:38:26   they wanted to be at the show.

00:38:28   And as more and more people were,

00:38:31   the media people were asking for that,

00:38:33   it left less and less reason for them to simulcast it.

00:38:36   And so they didn't.

00:38:37   Anybody who wanted to be there was here,

00:38:39   but that meant though that the 400 spots for outsiders

00:38:43   had to be split from everybody around the world.

00:38:46   - Yeah, and conversely, they had so many products.

00:38:48   They had the all new Apple Watch stuff,

00:38:50   they had the iPad, they had the Apple TV,

00:38:51   they had the iPhones, and those teams aren't big,

00:38:54   like the press teams, the marketing teams.

00:38:56   As far as I could tell, they were being manned

00:38:59   by people from all over the world.

00:39:00   If you worked at Apple in those departments

00:39:02   anywhere in the world, you were there helping out that day.

00:39:04   - Yeah, definitely.

00:39:07   It's just wild.

00:39:08   It's just an incredible, incredible effort that goes into it.

00:39:12   Whatever you think of the announcements.

00:39:14   The meta commentary on the effort Apple puts into the show itself is truly extraordinary.

00:39:22   They've taken it to a level with this show, I think, that they've never done before.

00:39:26   It's almost like, I don't know, you mentioned before that the idea that Apple was a product,

00:39:29   but it's almost like the events themselves have become products.

00:39:32   I've gotten to go to shows by other companies, and when you see the difference in how they're

00:39:37   Like I won't mention any names, but some of them don't even think about streaming it

00:39:40   It just doesn't occur to them as they're setting it up

00:39:42   And then there's massive problems at the last minute or they do

00:39:45   Simulcasts and one starts before the other and then I remember one year I forget London New York started early

00:39:51   So these they started handing out phones to keep reporters busy

00:39:53   While they were trying to get the satellite back and those reporters sort of blocking the phones immediately

00:39:58   Like there's just so many things that could go wrong and that and that these tend to go right as a testament to the effort

00:40:03   put in.

00:40:04   Yeah, and it seems like the streaming held up once again very well for everybody at home,

00:40:10   everybody out there listening.

00:40:11   I bet probably a majority of the people listening to this episode probably listen live.

00:40:15   It seemed like there were very few, if any, complaints about the streaming.

00:40:20   Yeah, accidents and bad things happen to everybody.

00:40:22   I think it's a testament to a company that they often do not let the same bad thing or

00:40:25   the same mistakes happen twice.

00:40:27   Right.

00:40:28   Nobody got switched to the Chinese audio track or something like that?

00:40:32   No.

00:40:33   Anything else you want to talk about from the event itself?

00:40:37   It was interesting to me is when we talked to a bunch of our friends about it

00:40:41   how split some of the opinions are. I know there was a little bit of that at WWDC

00:40:45   because some people actually did like the music stuff. A lot of us didn't but some people did.

00:40:49   And this year there was nothing as divisive as that but there were still some people

00:40:53   like I know Jeff Williams owns Apple Watch at Apple, it's in his org, but he presented it and it wasn't

00:40:57   Phil Schiller. And some people like the fresh new voice and some people would prefer to have Phil

00:41:01   Phil do all those things, and some people don't find Phil

00:41:03   excited enough, so they like Craig,

00:41:05   but some people think Craig is just a bunch of dad jokes.

00:41:07   And then, like, there's just so many opinions now

00:41:09   about who should be doing what, and I think that almost

00:41:11   shows that they're getting to a level where we're not

00:41:14   worrying about their products as much anymore,

00:41:15   and we're worrying about Apple as a show.

00:41:17   - Yeah.

00:41:19   It's, I, you know, I don't get the complaints about Schiller,

00:41:23   and I know that there's some people who, you know,

00:41:25   like Twitter and email are like,

00:41:26   "What's wrong with Schiller, was he depressed?"

00:41:28   know I like his demeanor on stage I think I think it's very carefully dialed

00:41:33   in and it is it is very much it's I don't find it to be lacking in

00:41:40   enthusiasm I find it to be completely without artificial enthusiasm absolutely

00:41:46   and you know even Federighi who's who is more enthusiastic I don't find it to be

00:41:52   phony though I really do think though that that's exactly what he thinks he's

00:41:56   He's just more of a jovial guy than Schiller is.

00:42:00   - They're all, as far as I can tell,

00:42:02   and you spend a lot more time with them than I have,

00:42:04   but they come off off stage

00:42:06   the same way they come off on stage.

00:42:07   - Yes, very much so in my experience, very much so.

00:42:10   Even Eddie too.

00:42:13   He is, you think, well, that guy might be a little goofy.

00:42:17   He is a little goofy.

00:42:19   It's funny.

00:42:20   - He runs iTunes, he has to be.

00:42:21   - You wouldn't, you know, and the idea,

00:42:25   Like when you hear that Steve Jobs and Tim Cook are ferociously scary negotiators, it's

00:42:33   believable.

00:42:34   And when you hear about Eddie based on his on-stage demeanor, it does seem hard to imagine.

00:42:40   I can't imagine it, but I think if there's ever any place where he's got a different

00:42:46   demeanor it's when he's at the negotiating table.

00:42:49   It is different, clearly different than his stage demeanor.

00:42:54   if you say hi to them backstage or something like that.

00:42:57   - And that must be so disarming

00:42:58   because if someone comes in like they're Darth Vader,

00:43:00   you're preparing yourself for Darth Vader,

00:43:01   but if someone comes in as your best friend,

00:43:03   then all of a sudden,

00:43:04   all the oxygen gets sucked out of the room,

00:43:06   you're just not ready for that.

00:43:07   - Right, I saw one complaint.

00:43:09   I saw an article that somebody wrote about,

00:43:11   that I don't think I linked to it.

00:43:16   I almost did, not because I agreed with it,

00:43:18   but in the spirit of sometimes

00:43:20   I like to link to things I disagree with,

00:43:22   but that I find worth considering.

00:43:25   It's like the rarest thing, it was an article about,

00:43:28   that called Apple's event creepy as hell.

00:43:31   And one of his complaints was that it was just

00:43:34   one guy after another all dressed the same,

00:43:36   with the exact same, almost the exact same shirt on.

00:43:40   And I see what he means,

00:43:41   we actually commented on it in the show.

00:43:43   It almost seems like maybe Apple needs to coordinate that

00:43:45   a little bit better, that it was, you know,

00:43:47   it really was a series of very similar bluish,

00:43:51   with muted dark blue button-down shirt.

00:43:55   - Eddie had his Product Red shirt on.

00:43:56   - Well, that's the thing.

00:43:58   I don't see how you, I see how you can complain,

00:44:00   and I see how Tim and Jeff Williams and Schiller

00:44:05   and a few others had roughly similar shirts on.

00:44:10   I don't see, though, how you write that sentence

00:44:13   without at least putting in a parenthetical about Eddie.

00:44:17   (both laughing)

00:44:20   Like Eddie's shirt was so crazily Eddie

00:44:23   that it demanded to be mentioned.

00:44:27   If you're gonna talk about the shirts

00:44:28   of the people on stage, you gotta,

00:44:30   you really had to mention that.

00:44:32   I almost think like Eddie is going in like,

00:44:35   you remember Doc Severinsen, the guy who was the fan leader

00:44:41   on the Johnny Carson show?

00:44:43   - Absolutely.

00:44:44   - He wore deliberately outlandish costumes

00:44:46   and Carson could crack jokes about it.

00:44:48   Like I feel like Eddie's going in that route

00:44:50   He he he's just wears he wears goofy shirts on purpose. It's part of the negotiating

00:44:55   He distracts you with the shirt and then goes in for the kill, right?

00:44:58   Cuz he actually didn't have that shirt on before the event, you know, like pre event apples

00:45:02   senior executives

00:45:05   mingle down in front

00:45:07   in front of the stage

00:45:09   You know like in the you know half-hour 45 minutes leading up to the event and and I saw you know

00:45:15   Eddie down there and he was wearing I don't know what it was

00:45:18   I didn't really take notice but I certainly would have taken notice if he was wearing that shirt and he wasn't like so he actually

00:45:23   Gets into costume backstage like to come out. I

00:45:26   Joked about this, but I seriously want to just turn off the internet often after Apple events

00:45:30   I saw a whole thing about how Johnny I've didn't appear physically in the video and there must be something wrong

00:45:35   But we saw him all over the event. He was he was exactly like Johnny always was. Yes, exactly

00:45:39   No, he was all over the place afterwards

00:45:42   No, there's nothing right stupid. It's the fact that the fact is that they've upped

00:45:47   they've well

00:45:49   It's I guess it's a matter of taste whether they've upped the style of those narrated videos, but they have seemingly

00:45:57   abandoned the previous

00:46:00   I'm gonna call it a format, but you want to call it a style like template where it's the

00:46:06   white background that that seemingly infinite white

00:46:11   universe background and

00:46:14   You'd see the people doing the talking, you know

00:46:18   Oh, I think they were always on the right side looking to the left if you're looking at the screen

00:46:24   And you know this like as though they were filmed doing a sit-down interview and instead now

00:46:29   it's a black background and they're darker and

00:46:33   it's entirely shots of the products and

00:46:37   Pure voiceover from Johnny and just Johnny. There's I mean, they don't have Dan Ricci. Oh, they used to have

00:46:43   They used to have a bunch of people in those ads.

00:46:45   They don't have Johnny Srouji.

00:46:47   It's entirely a Johnny Ive.

00:46:48   But it was getting to the point

00:46:49   where people were making fake versions of those.

00:46:51   And I think once you have your Saturday Night Live moment,

00:46:53   you've gotta move on.

00:46:54   - Yeah, I think maybe that's part of it.

00:46:56   And that, you know, they just got old.

00:46:57   You know, what's his name?

00:46:59   Big Bob Mansfield appeared in them as well.

00:47:03   - Dan Riccio was in some of them.

00:47:04   I mean, they've had several people.

00:47:05   They've had Joss Wieck in some of them.

00:47:07   - Yes, definitely.

00:47:08   I always like to see him, Big Bob Mansfield.

00:47:12   - He was great.

00:47:13   It just seems so nice.

00:47:15   - A lot of them, they really do come off

00:47:18   the way they come off in those videos.

00:47:19   I think they really do enjoy what they're doing.

00:47:21   - Yes, well, absolutely.

00:47:23   I don't see if there's any other reason

00:47:24   that they would stick around.

00:47:25   - No.

00:47:25   - I'm trying to think, anything else with the event?

00:47:30   - No, just that it was, I mean, we spoke about it briefly

00:47:33   before the event and we said if they were gonna do

00:47:35   all this stuff, they were gonna have to yada yada

00:47:36   a lot of things and they did, they yada yada

00:47:38   a lot of things.

00:47:39   - Yeah, they definitely did.

00:47:40   - And apparently they cut a lot of stuff,

00:47:40   like there was apparently a lot more stuff

00:47:42   that just couldn't fit in.

00:47:43   - Yeah, I heard, yeah.

00:47:46   I'm curious who does that?

00:47:47   'Cause previously it was without question,

00:47:51   it was Steve Jobs.

00:47:52   He was the director of those shows

00:47:55   and it was unquestioned and he had a gift

00:47:59   and they were easier to put together when he was around

00:48:03   because his gift was such that if you laid out

00:48:07   the products that, here's the stuff we'd like to announce,

00:48:11   here's all of it.

00:48:12   Jobs can just look at that table of stuff,

00:48:15   whether it's software, hardware, whatever the mix is.

00:48:18   And the show just came to his head,

00:48:22   like the basic structure.

00:48:24   What do we do first?

00:48:26   What do we do second?

00:48:27   What do we do third?

00:48:28   What gets cut?

00:48:30   And it just came to him.

00:48:31   And it's not that they came to him

00:48:32   and then they didn't have to rehearse.

00:48:34   And then they'd start rehearsing.

00:48:36   And as they're rehearsing, the flaws in the flow,

00:48:39   the lulls and everything just came to him.

00:48:41   And he would just say, "That's too long.

00:48:44   "That's gotta be 30 seconds."

00:48:46   And that's it.

00:48:47   And nobody, there weren't really arguments over it.

00:48:50   And went, and somebody who's maybe stuck.

00:48:53   See, and the thing that really sticks out to me

00:48:55   when you watch other companies' events

00:48:57   is that the inner company politics

00:49:00   just comes spewing out the sides of the event

00:49:03   in terms of you can just see

00:49:05   that it's this division and that division

00:49:08   and they both want time on the stage.

00:49:11   and they want it for the sake of their own internal

00:49:14   bureaucratic status.

00:49:21   Not whether giving equal time or 10 minutes of time

00:49:25   to this other thing is good for the flow of the show

00:49:28   and therefore best for the interest of the company

00:49:31   as a whole in terms of keeping people's interest

00:49:33   and making sure that the limited time of this event

00:49:35   is allocated properly.

00:49:37   And I think Steve Jobs could single-handedly solve that

00:49:41   because whatever internal quabbles there were

00:49:44   in turf wars under him, the buck stopped with him

00:49:47   and he could stop it.

00:49:48   Tim Cook obviously has that authority

00:49:51   and I think it would be unquestioned.

00:49:52   But he doesn't have, I don't think he's the guy

00:49:55   who has the sense of showmanship to know

00:49:57   which stuff to put in which order and stuff like that.

00:50:01   And I really do think that's what was wrong

00:50:03   with the WWDC keynote is that it was just sort of a jumble

00:50:07   and sort of randomly structured as opposed to ordered in a way that was harmonious.

00:50:12   Yeah, to your point, I felt like Steve Jobs could look at one of those weird, you know,

00:50:15   those weird paintings and just see the pattern that was hidden inside it.

00:50:18   It would just pop out at him.

00:50:19   He would wonder why no one else could see it.

00:50:21   It's so obvious.

00:50:22   And now Tim Cook seems to treat them where before it was Steve Jobs and Johnny Iovine,

00:50:26   everything radiating out from there.

00:50:28   Tim Cook seems to treat them as if they're running their own sub companies in a way.

00:50:31   And it feels like, you know, just running watch.

00:50:33   Who does Jeff want to present the watch?

00:50:35   If he wants to, that's fine.

00:50:36   if not, we'll find somebody.

00:50:37   Eddie's gonna do the iTunes or segment

00:50:41   if he doesn't wanna do parts of it, who's gonna do those.

00:50:43   And they get to make those decisions.

00:50:44   And maybe arguably you'd want Tim Cook

00:50:47   or Johnny and I have to make some of those decisions,

00:50:49   but he seems content to allow them to own those fields.

00:50:51   - Yeah, but not if he doesn't, if he,

00:50:53   I think one of the seemingly amazing things about Tim Cook

00:50:57   is that he seems extraordinarily comfortable

00:51:00   sticking to what he's good at

00:51:04   and knowing what he's good at.

00:51:05   and he's clearly very, very good at certain things,

00:51:09   and then not feeling the least bit defensive or inadequate

00:51:13   about the things that he's not good at,

00:51:17   even though those are some amazing things

00:51:19   that his immediate predecessor was amazingly good at.

00:51:23   Like, I don't think it bothers Tim Cook in the least

00:51:25   that he's not, he doesn't have that sense of showmanship

00:51:29   that Steve Jobs had.

00:51:30   - No, he's like a very different apple.

00:51:32   - Yeah, and clearly it doesn't bother him in the least

00:51:34   he doesn't have the sense of design that Steve Jobs had. I mean I'm sure Tim Cook offers

00:51:39   feedback and he's very very tuned in to the development of these products. And I think

00:51:43   if he does have an opinion or a question I'm sure he doesn't hesitate to ask. But he doesn't

00:51:48   have any problem letting Johnny Ive take over as the buck stops here sense of design for

00:51:54   the company.

00:51:55   One of my favorite moments during the event was Tim Cook walked into the Apple TV area

00:51:59   with OneRepublic and he wanted to show them an iPad or they were asking about the iPad

00:52:04   and it wasn't in that area, but there were a group of people,

00:52:07   some of the guides there had them,

00:52:08   so one of the guides offered it to him

00:52:09   and he just picked it up

00:52:10   and started giving a complete hands-on demo

00:52:12   to OneRepublic showing them the features,

00:52:14   almost like he was working at an Apple store,

00:52:16   it was remarkable.

00:52:17   - Yeah, it was nearby, I actually saw that

00:52:20   until they wandered off, but it's,

00:52:23   his knowledge of what's being announced

00:52:27   is as deep as it could be.

00:52:30   Like, you know, if he needed to, he could do everything.

00:52:32   I mean, it would take forever

00:52:33   because he talks so slow, but.

00:52:35   - Well it seems like he doesn't drive design

00:52:37   the way Steve Jobs did, but he really does appreciate

00:52:39   the details of what they do.

00:52:40   - Yeah, or he pays attention to what they do.

00:52:43   He is very much aware of it,

00:52:44   like there's no glossing over on that stuff.

00:52:47   Event-wise though, that probably wraps it up.

00:52:52   All right, I'll take another break here,

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00:56:26   All right.

00:56:28   So, I guess we can talk about

00:56:31   what they announced at the show.

00:56:33   - Yeah.

00:56:34   - I'm curious what you think of the iPad Pro with the pen,

00:56:37   because you are maybe not a serious illustrator,

00:56:40   but you're certainly a hobbyist illustrator,

00:56:43   or at least you're a Batman illustrator.

00:56:45   - Well, so I do that to screw around,

00:56:46   but I drew every day comic book-y stuff

00:56:51   when I was growing up and I went to college for art,

00:56:53   And then I worked as a designer for seven, eight years

00:56:56   using Wacom tablets every day.

00:56:59   And doing Photoshop and Illustrator and InDesign

00:57:02   just constantly until I became muscle memory.

00:57:04   And though I had a love-hate relationship with those

00:57:06   because they were better than anything else,

00:57:08   but they were never exactly a digital pen.

00:57:11   And Apple's pencil, it's remarkable.

00:57:14   I'm sure if you just used it, you'd find that too.

00:57:16   But if you've been using Wacom for a while

00:57:19   or you've used styluses on the iPad,

00:57:20   it's hard to properly frame the difference,

00:57:23   but it just never felt like a proper pen to me.

00:57:25   It wasn't heavy enough, it was too slippery,

00:57:28   and Apple's fixed all of that.

00:57:30   There is no paper drag, but they've got a material

00:57:32   on the tip of the pencil that has just enough drag

00:57:34   on the screen that makes you feel like it's a real thing,

00:57:37   that there's real contact there.

00:57:38   And the weight is absolutely perfect.

00:57:40   And the way that it, they do this really fancy

00:57:43   sort of prediction algorithm for where you're gonna go,

00:57:46   and once in a while you can fool it,

00:57:48   but it catches up super quick, but it makes you feel

00:57:51   like you're literally drawing right on the screen.

00:57:54   And because there's no inter mediating layer

00:57:56   the way there is with Wacom,

00:57:57   they have a whole layer between the display

00:57:58   and the sensors.

00:58:00   It feels like you are drawing those pixels into the glass.

00:58:03   And I used it for about,

00:58:05   I did the same thing that you did.

00:58:06   I went there at the end and I used it for about 20 minutes.

00:58:08   And I put my hand down on it to test palm rejection.

00:58:11   I did very quick cross hatching.

00:58:13   And Shrenity gave me a whole long list of things to test too

00:58:15   because she did all the stylus reviews.

00:58:17   And I did everything I could to screw that thing over

00:58:20   and it kept with me.

00:58:21   And it was the first time I actually felt like

00:58:23   I could sit there with a pad of paper and sketch

00:58:25   on a digital device.

00:58:27   - Yeah, that's something that didn't really occur to me

00:58:29   during the event.

00:58:30   I thought, I was thinking of it,

00:58:32   I mean obviously it was rumored that it was a big iPad

00:58:35   and there would be some kind of optional stylus type thing

00:58:39   attached to it.

00:58:40   So drawing was obviously part of it.

00:58:41   It hadn't occurred to me though that they weren't

00:58:44   just going for a better stylus on iPad experience.

00:58:49   experience than what was possible with third-party styluses until now and that

00:58:54   instead they were going to take like the Wacom stuff and make it look bad you

00:59:03   know that this is the preeminent computerized drawing thing in the world

00:59:07   period it just didn't occur to me until afterwards in the hands-on area when I

00:59:12   I was walking around with Michael B. Johnson,

00:59:16   AKA Dr. Wave on Twitter.

00:59:18   Honestly, I've forewent firsthand experience

00:59:23   with the iPad and pen, 'cause like we said,

00:59:27   the hands-on area was crowded.

00:59:29   I've forewent doing that myself,

00:59:32   just to hang with Dr. Wave and listen to his questions.

00:59:35   He was a guest, you know, but,

00:59:38   you know, what he does at Pixar is build internal tools

00:59:42   for Pixar artists and this device is of great interest to him and to listen to

00:59:49   his questions about refresh rates and parallax and and and all of that stuff I

00:59:54   felt like I learned more by letting you know just sort of being a you know just

00:59:59   looking over his shoulder really really fascinating so and it became clear in

01:00:03   that aftermath that that's really what Apple had done is that this is you know

01:00:08   a dramatic step forward in terms of drawing, you know, for any kind of artist.

01:00:15   It's one of those things where they see an area where something is just not as

01:00:19   good as they want it to be and if they believe that they can make a difference

01:00:21   they're gonna go all out and try and do it and they doubled the refresh the

01:00:25   scanning rate inside the Mac, sorry, the iPad Pro so it technically doesn't work

01:00:29   on older generation iPads so they could update the hardware eventually for that

01:00:33   but they're combining that with technology like the the Force Touch or

01:00:36   3D touch inside the pencil and a lot of smarts

01:00:39   for tilt direction positioning and they're measuring

01:00:42   on a bunch of different axes and they've got all

01:00:44   the software behind that too and it really,

01:00:46   it feels like magic and that's a really dumb thing to say

01:00:49   but they're doing so much computational work there

01:00:51   that it ends up just feeling like a pencil.

01:00:54   - There was a blog post I linked to yesterday

01:00:56   written by Linda Dong who, now admittedly she's

01:01:00   a former Apple designer so if you wanted to say

01:01:02   she's biased, you can but she's former.

01:01:04   Well, because if she was present,

01:01:06   she wouldn't be blogging about it.

01:01:07   But she's done interaction design and stuff for Apple,

01:01:11   and does a lot of her work, has done a lot of her work

01:01:14   on the Wacom Cintiqs.

01:01:16   I thought her little just quick,

01:01:19   you know, like here's all the ways that this is better.

01:01:21   It was amazing.

01:01:22   So the Cintiqs aren't retina,

01:01:24   so they have pixels that an artist can see.

01:01:26   The pen, she says, you know,

01:01:28   the pen you use with them is janky,

01:01:30   and it feels junky, and has a bunch of buttons

01:01:33   you can actually hit.

01:01:34   There's parallax between the surface of the thing and the actual display underneath,

01:01:40   which for almost any angle that would be comfortable for an artist is going to be an issue.

01:01:45   And there's latency. There's palpable latency.

01:01:49   So combine those highlights of "here's how this thing is better," it's blow away good.

01:01:55   And you can almost see them the way that they did with the smartphone.

01:01:58   They looked at the existing market and said, "What are the problems? What are the pain points?

01:02:01   we fix them?" and they made that list and they just knocked them down one after the other.

01:02:04   Yeah, my question, here's my big question about all of this though, is, and obviously there's,

01:02:10   you know, however many other uses for the iPad Pro, but how big is the market for making the

01:02:18   pen work as well as this is? Like, I have no idea how big that market is.

01:02:23   Yeah, I don't know either. I mean, there were a lot of people who went out and bought Microsoft

01:02:26   services just because they wanted to do this kind of illustration work, and that's, you know,

01:02:30   obviously it wasn't enough to make the surface successful product but it was

01:02:33   interesting to me that there was that demand and I don't think I think

01:02:35   sometimes Apple just wants to do what they think is better and they know that

01:02:38   that technology will trickle down like maybe in the future an iPad Air and iPad

01:02:42   Mini maybe even an iPhone will benefit from this technology but it takes their

01:02:46   launching a big product to bring everything together to make it a reality

01:02:49   right because there's a there's all the magic that's in the pen and in theory

01:02:53   that that you know the pen could work you know with any other device but

01:02:59   But there's also new technology in the iPad Pro itself

01:03:03   that works with the pen for getting the, you know,

01:03:07   the pressure sensitivity and stuff like that.

01:03:09   Like however thin the layer now is

01:03:13   in the modern Apple devices between the actual display

01:03:17   and the surface of the glass above it,

01:03:21   however thin that is,

01:03:22   and I really do think they're not exaggerating

01:03:25   to call that gap microscopic,

01:03:27   They've got sensors in there to measure at microscopic levels the degree of pressure

01:03:32   that's being applied.

01:03:33   >> Twice the resolution of the ones in the iPad Air and the iPhone apparently.

01:03:37   >> Yeah, yeah.

01:03:38   And they do magical stuff now with the refresh rate where if they sense that you're not doing

01:03:43   anything that's very dynamic, they can cycle that down to save power.

01:03:46   There's a lot of technology in that display.

01:03:48   >> Yeah.

01:03:49   And I think that they've, again, I think they've improved refresh rates in two ways.

01:03:57   There's the drawing refresh rate, where just what it's displaying, what the iPad Pro is

01:04:02   displaying has this dynamic visual refresh rate.

01:04:07   So if you're watching a video where everything is changing all the time, it's refreshing

01:04:10   at whatever rate, but if this, you know, it stops, if you're drawing something and you

01:04:15   and it detects that you've stopped and nothing is animated on screen it'll slow

01:04:19   it down and that can you know definitely save on the energy but I also that

01:04:24   believe if not know that they have doubled the refresh rate of reading the

01:04:30   touch sensors yeah right and so as even if you're just drawing your with your

01:04:35   finger even if you're just sliding your finger over it it's got double the

01:04:39   refresh rate of checking just where your finger is yeah and it all comes together

01:04:42   like to Linda's post that it just does so many things that no one else is doing

01:04:46   right now because they're hard things to do that all those refresh rate things

01:04:51   those seem like things that could couldn't will eventually trickle down

01:04:55   to across the whole iOS lineup I mean why not I mean whether they'll work with

01:05:00   the pen I don't know but at the very least you know you know increasing the

01:05:05   touch refresh rate you know seems like it would be just you know useful and in

01:05:09   in ways to any iPad and phone.

01:05:12   - Yeah, there is so much, I mean,

01:05:13   they've shown their own custom timing controllers

01:05:15   for things like the 5K iMac and now for the iPad Pro.

01:05:18   They've shown that new chip that lets them flash

01:05:20   the iPhone screen three times as bright

01:05:22   to make a selfie flash.

01:05:24   They've shown they can do OLED with the Apple Watch

01:05:26   and keep things to super low refresh rates,

01:05:28   sorry, super low, super efficient energy rates.

01:05:32   Where they're going with all this,

01:05:34   the thing that's always so impressive to me

01:05:35   is that Apple, they're not like Qualcomm

01:05:37   and they're not even quite like Samsung,

01:05:39   they get to make the parts exactly for what they wanna do.

01:05:41   So you take a look at like the A9 processor.

01:05:44   And to me, this is light years ahead

01:05:46   of the rest of the industry now.

01:05:47   And if you told me 10 years ago,

01:05:48   Apple would be leading in any chipset business,

01:05:50   I would have thought it was insane,

01:05:52   but they're doing it and they don't have to care

01:05:54   about profit or loss on a chipset like Qualcomm does,

01:05:56   'cause they're not selling them.

01:05:57   They don't have to worry about supporting Microsoft

01:05:59   and Android and other architectures,

01:06:01   'cause they're only supporting their own.

01:06:02   If they wanna make a feature like this,

01:06:04   they can just make the silicon that supports it.

01:06:06   And I think that over time, that becomes a stronger

01:06:09   and stronger advantage for them.

01:06:11   - I really do wonder, and I know that something

01:06:14   like Geekbench is not, it doesn't give you everything

01:06:19   you need to know about how fast one machine is

01:06:22   comparable to another, but it's not bad.

01:06:24   It's not a bad starting point if you just want

01:06:27   to put a number on it.

01:06:28   And I think Geekbench in particular is designed in a way

01:06:32   that to me seems like a good balance

01:06:35   of the various factors.

01:06:37   Really, really curious to see where the iPad Pro benchmarks

01:06:42   because I said last week that I think it'll benchmark,

01:06:45   like it might beat like a 2013 MacBook Air.

01:06:49   I'm wondering if I sold it short.

01:06:53   It might beat like the MacBook Air

01:06:55   that you can go in and buy today.

01:06:57   I'm not, maybe that's too much, I don't know,

01:06:59   but I'm pretty sure that it's gonna be close.

01:07:02   - It's almost like apples and oranges now

01:07:04   because again, they are building the software

01:07:06   and the hardware down to the chipset all to work together.

01:07:09   And you don't see that.

01:07:10   Like people will complain,

01:07:11   oh, you know, an iPhone needs more RAM.

01:07:13   Android's got four gigabytes of RAM,

01:07:15   but that really is meaningless

01:07:16   because they're running an interpretive language,

01:07:18   they're doing garbage collection.

01:07:19   They're not have, they don't have,

01:07:20   they have software that's built

01:07:21   for a wide set of devices, not specifically.

01:07:23   If you're saying you need more RAM because,

01:07:25   oh, Safari can't keep a tab loaded in memory,

01:07:27   that's absolutely justified.

01:07:28   But their ability to do this lets them pick

01:07:31   and choose exactly the components that they need.

01:07:33   And I think that's where you get that performance from.

01:07:35   - Yeah.

01:07:36   It's just sort of astounding though.

01:07:40   I mean, it's, to go from where the iPad started

01:07:44   in 2010 and 2011, and it was a compelling device,

01:07:48   especially starting with the iPad 2 in 2011.

01:07:51   But not for reasons of pure performance

01:07:57   compared to a Mac, or even just like a MacBook Air,

01:08:01   which has always been the slowest Mac in the lineup.

01:08:04   It's for other reasons.

01:08:06   It was, okay, so it's not as fast,

01:08:08   but you can carry it around all day,

01:08:10   but it'll last 10 hours.

01:08:12   But touch is more intimate.

01:08:15   It sounds touchy-feely, no pun intended,

01:08:20   but it really does give you a more intimate experience.

01:08:23   There were all these buts.

01:08:24   It's kind of fascinating

01:08:26   that performance is no longer a but.

01:08:29   - Yeah, well if you look at the MacBook,

01:08:32   the brand new MacBook, that's running Broadwell Y,

01:08:34   and it's hard to look at the Apple A9 and not think,

01:08:37   you know, Apple's just sound like

01:08:39   kicking their ass in mobile too.

01:08:41   - It really does.

01:08:42   And again, I think, again, we'll see, maybe I'm wrong,

01:08:45   but if not, if I'm wrong, it's not gonna be my much,

01:08:47   that the iPad Air 2, or not iPad Air 2,

01:08:52   iPad Pro is going to benchmark faster

01:08:54   than the Surface Pro 3s that are running Intel chips.

01:08:58   And that was like the whole thing with the Surface,

01:09:03   is that they had, well we've got the regular Surface,

01:09:05   which is ARM, and that's if you want something

01:09:08   thinner and lighter, and then we've got the Surface Pro,

01:09:12   which uses Intel's mobile chips,

01:09:14   because that's what you need for the speed.

01:09:16   And Apple has, in relatively short order,

01:09:19   just like two years later, has said,

01:09:22   you don't need to make that compromise.

01:09:24   You can get all of the advantages of ARM,

01:09:27   and beat Intel on performance.

01:09:31   - I used to say this and people thought

01:09:32   I was just being a dick, but I meant it,

01:09:33   that when you look at the Surface,

01:09:36   running Windows was not an advantage.

01:09:38   It was a detriment in many cases,

01:09:39   'cause Windows was just not designed to do that at all,

01:09:42   and iOS was, and that's why I think Apple

01:09:44   with their tablets and even with the iPad Pro

01:09:47   gets that right.

01:09:48   I always wanted them to put,

01:09:49   before they started merging everything,

01:09:50   I always wanted them to put Windows Phone on a Surface

01:09:52   and see what it could really do.

01:09:53   But just the idea that this is a touch first

01:09:55   mobile operating system built on a device that is mobile.

01:09:58   It gives them a tremendous advantage.

01:10:01   - Yeah, I think so too.

01:10:02   The next thing, in addition to the pencil for the iPad Pro,

01:10:06   is the, and here, you know,

01:10:07   you can't not talk about the Surface in this case,

01:10:10   is the smart keyboard.

01:10:11   Where you've got a magnetically attached keyboard

01:10:16   or cover that when you unfold it

01:10:18   has a physical keyboard inside.

01:10:21   - So much better than the original iPad

01:10:23   with that keyboard stand.

01:10:24   - Oh, absolutely, but it's funny how you go around

01:10:28   and in five years it just looks like,

01:10:30   what the hell were they thinking?

01:10:31   But at the time, they didn't know.

01:10:33   - Yeah.

01:10:34   - They just didn't know.

01:10:35   But clearly this smart keyboard is,

01:10:38   Microsoft did it first.

01:10:42   I mean, so credit to them.

01:10:43   I'm curious why it's,

01:10:52   And maybe the answer is just wait a year.

01:10:55   Or maybe wait half a year, who knows?

01:10:56   Maybe there'll be an event,

01:10:57   I don't think there's gonna be an event this year,

01:10:58   but maybe there'll be like an early 2016 event.

01:11:01   Why there's not one for the iPad Air 2.

01:11:04   And I know that it's full size,

01:11:07   you know, it's bigger and more comfortable,

01:11:09   and I've tried the ones in the demo area last week.

01:11:12   But it seems to me like an iPad Air 2

01:11:14   is big enough for a keyboard.

01:11:17   - My guess is they're waiting for the iPad Air 3,

01:11:19   which will have those same three connectors

01:11:21   that the iPad Pro has that makes the docking and undocking

01:11:24   so easy for the new keyboard.

01:11:25   - That's exactly what I was thinking too, exactly.

01:11:28   I think it's gotta have those three,

01:11:30   it's gotta have those three,

01:11:31   whatever they're calling it, smart connector.

01:11:33   - Yeah, smart connector.

01:11:35   - Look at me remembering the name of something.

01:11:37   I think it's gotta be that they're waiting

01:11:38   for an iPad Air 3, it'll have the smart connector

01:11:41   and it just wasn't ready yet.

01:11:44   Or maybe they didn't want to,

01:11:46   maybe they didn't want to release it yet.

01:11:50   - Yeah, going back to your older point,

01:11:51   And the thing with Steve Jobs that was so great on stage

01:11:53   is he could not, it wasn't just that he saw the story

01:11:55   and could arrange the products,

01:11:56   but he could tell you the story.

01:11:57   And maybe the original iPhone and the iPad 2 events

01:12:00   were quintessential examples of that.

01:12:02   And I think this Apple knows that they're not quite as good

01:12:04   at telling stories yet.

01:12:06   And, you know, absent that narrative,

01:12:08   I think that they have to be more focused.

01:12:10   And if they start talking about an iPad Air

01:12:12   with the keyboard or with a pencil,

01:12:14   it just takes away from the iPad Pro.

01:12:16   And they need to be very careful about keeping the focus

01:12:18   on that one product.

01:12:20   - Yeah, I think you're right.

01:12:21   I think it makes sense even if they could have done it now

01:12:24   that it made sense to wait.

01:12:26   And maybe it will be.

01:12:27   Maybe they'll go off cycle with iPad Air 4,

01:12:30   or I guess it would be iPad Air 3,

01:12:33   and maybe do it in the spring

01:12:35   if they have something else to announce with it.

01:12:37   - Yeah, it's interesting 'cause the watch,

01:12:38   the watch debuted with watchOS 1,

01:12:41   but watchOS 2 is coming out with the same hardware.

01:12:43   They're not linking those product cycles,

01:12:45   so maybe they're willing to do that more often.

01:12:48   - Yeah, and it's, you know,

01:12:50   I don't think they're married to it.

01:12:51   I think they kind of are with the iPhone.

01:12:54   - It's convenient though.

01:12:55   I mean, the best time to show it off is WWDC

01:12:57   and the best time to ship iPhones is in September

01:12:59   and those things just line up very nicely for them.

01:13:02   - Yeah, I think with something new like the watch,

01:13:04   it's so unpredictable, or not watch,

01:13:07   yeah, well the watch is new.

01:13:09   It's so unpredictable that it makes sense

01:13:11   to just not worry about getting it on the exact quarter

01:13:15   that you want it to come out on

01:13:17   until they're more regularized production and everything.

01:13:21   - Absolutely.

01:13:22   - And know more about the, you know.

01:13:25   - And also they need to stagger,

01:13:27   I mean those, Apple, like you said,

01:13:29   they have small teams and those teams

01:13:30   are continuously running marathons of sprints

01:13:33   and they have to, almost like when Guy talks

01:13:35   about the video game industry,

01:13:36   they have to be careful to balance those people out

01:13:39   because they will burn them if they're not careful.

01:13:42   - Yeah, I totally agree with that.

01:13:46   So here's what's in our smart keyboard cover,

01:13:50   is 169 bucks, which is a lot, really.

01:13:55   I mean, especially since the starting price

01:13:57   on the iPad lineup is now like $249.

01:14:01   You can get an iPad, I mean, it's the old mini,

01:14:06   but you can get a whole iPad for 249,

01:14:10   but the keyboard for the iPad Pro is 169 bucks.

01:14:13   I think it's the most expensive Apple keyboard

01:14:15   since my beloved Apple extended keyboard 2.

01:14:18   - The Microsoft Surface Pro Type Cover keyboard

01:14:20   in Canadian dollars at least is 175.

01:14:23   - Yeah, and it's, you know,

01:14:25   I think it's a complicated bit of machinery.

01:14:29   So I, and I think it feels like a valuable cover.

01:14:32   And obviously since the whole machine is

01:14:36   800 to $1100.

01:14:40   And I think, I think most people who buy this

01:14:42   are gonna get the $1100 one.

01:14:44   are gonna get the one with 128 gigs in the cellular

01:14:47   for consumers.

01:14:49   - You go big or you go Kindle.

01:14:51   I think that's what we've learned.

01:14:52   - Yeah.

01:14:53   Well, I think that the entry level one, oddly enough,

01:14:58   is more for like a internal professional setting.

01:15:02   Like--

01:15:03   - Yeah, I think sometimes people aren't,

01:15:04   like, and Apple could do more.

01:15:05   They could absolutely, like they used to do with the eMac

01:15:07   and identify those SKUs better,

01:15:09   but like 16 gigabyte iPhones and iPad 2s

01:15:12   and this entry level iPad Pro,

01:15:15   there are people who are buying 2,000 of them for enterprise

01:15:17   and all they want is business to business apps

01:15:19   and web portals and they will take almost no storage.

01:15:23   - Well I think even for like an artistic purpose

01:15:26   where you're doing really high-end work

01:15:27   but at a place like if you've got like a studio

01:15:31   and you're doing work on special effects on a movie

01:15:34   or something like that and you want all of your artists

01:15:36   to have this, it makes sense to just buy the Wi-Fi

01:15:40   low storage one because the storage isn't really

01:15:42   going to be on the iPad anyway. It's going to be on the server within your outfit. It's

01:15:49   not like the artists working on Star Wars are keeping all of the data on their local

01:15:54   machine.

01:15:55   Yeah, it's exactly the Scott McNeely or Larry Ellison thin client. That's where we've gotten

01:15:59   to, finally.

01:16:00   Yeah, it's exactly that. And so it makes sense to just get the one without the... And the

01:16:07   studio, these artistic machines, they're not leaving, so they don't need cellular. That's

01:16:11   just wasted money and wasted thickness if they're a little thicker like they were or

01:16:18   just a wasted antenna.

01:16:20   And they don't need the storage.

01:16:21   If they're never going to use the storage, why in the world buy it?

01:16:24   Why not just get the low end one?

01:16:26   So I think that's…

01:16:27   It is odd that there's no LTE SKU for that because Apple's always had the same Wi-Fi

01:16:30   and LTE SKUs for all of their iPads.

01:16:31   This is the first time where you have to get the more expensive one if you want LTE.

01:16:35   Yeah, that is interesting.

01:16:36   But I do think it's telling towards the intended use.

01:16:39   I think that if you wanna use it as a laptop,

01:16:44   this is my portable, no, I shouldn't even say laptop

01:16:47   'cause laptop word is loaded in terms of how you use it,

01:16:50   as your portable computer.

01:16:51   You're gonna want the additional storage

01:16:58   'cause 128 gigs of bytes of storage

01:17:00   is not that much for a portable computer.

01:17:04   - No, and it's four gigabytes of RAM too.

01:17:06   So I mean, it does have the constraints

01:17:07   of a mobile device still.

01:17:09   - Right, but it's, you know, that's the one

01:17:11   that's specked out like a, this is my portable computer.

01:17:15   And the 32 gig one is specked out like,

01:17:19   this is like an artist's--

01:17:20   - This is my studio computer.

01:17:21   - Right, this is my drawing tablet.

01:17:23   - Did you get a chance to try the keyboard?

01:17:24   I spent only a few minutes with it,

01:17:26   but I like the Mac, like I like low keyboards.

01:17:29   I like the MacBook keyboard a lot,

01:17:30   and I know you have very different tastes than keyboards.

01:17:33   - Yeah, I don't like any laptop keyboard though.

01:17:36   Like, I don't even, you know, like,

01:17:37   I think that the MacBook Pro keyboard I have right now

01:17:42   is probably my favorite laptop keyboard I've ever used.

01:17:47   And if not, it's close.

01:17:49   And I still think it's kind of a crap keyboard

01:17:51   compared to my big, clacky Apple-extended keyboard, too.

01:17:54   I make do.

01:17:55   I mean, I write thousands of words a year

01:17:57   on that MacBook Pro.

01:17:59   - And if you could connect an IBM Selectric, you would.

01:18:02   - Well, probably not in any of the areas

01:18:04   where I would use the MacBook Pro.

01:18:06   I would only do that if I were using it

01:18:08   as my only computer at my desk.

01:18:10   But then when I'm away.

01:18:11   So I mean, I make do.

01:18:12   I mean, I am picky about keyboards, but I make do.

01:18:14   I don't find the new MacBook One.

01:18:15   Again, I haven't lived with that machine, so I don't know.

01:18:18   But just playing around with it in the stores and stuff,

01:18:20   I mean, I could definitely make do.

01:18:22   It doesn't seem that much worse than the

01:18:25   11-inch MacBook Air

01:18:31   that I used as my portable for four years.

01:18:34   - Yeah, I use it, it took me an hour to get used to it.

01:18:36   The only problem I have now is that it's still,

01:18:38   it goes right to the edge of the machines.

01:18:39   Every time I pick it up, I accidentally hit escape

01:18:41   or enter or something.

01:18:42   I have to remember to pick it up from the bottom.

01:18:44   - Yeah, and it does, having tried this thing

01:18:47   at the event last week, the keyboard,

01:18:50   the travel is obviously very low,

01:18:51   but it travels enough that it's,

01:18:53   there absolutely is a clickiness to it,

01:18:56   which in and of itself is a huge win over

01:19:02   and anything like that that I've tried before, you know.

01:19:05   - And I like that Apple had,

01:19:06   I mean Logitech announced the same day,

01:19:07   so Apple's letting anyone connect,

01:19:09   maybe not anyone, but they're letting partners connect

01:19:11   to those smart connectors,

01:19:12   and that means that there'll be a range

01:19:13   of different keyboards available for it.

01:19:15   - Yeah, I thought that that Logitech announcement

01:19:17   was interesting and sort of another new Apple thing

01:19:19   where they obviously, you know,

01:19:22   looped them in in advance,

01:19:25   and you know, they haven't unveiled the details,

01:19:27   but they obviously looped them in,

01:19:30   And I think the thinking is that Apple decided

01:19:33   this is what we wanna build.

01:19:34   We wanna build one keyboard.

01:19:35   It's gonna be a fold-up cover.

01:19:37   Obviously with this port, the potential is there

01:19:41   for all sorts of other things,

01:19:42   including something that's more of like a

01:19:44   leave it at your desk base station, right?

01:19:47   So if you're just gonna use this,

01:19:49   and I think this is for a lot of people,

01:19:51   I think it's a really interesting scenario

01:19:54   where this is your main computer and you take it around.

01:19:58   When you're at your desk, why don't you,

01:20:00   wouldn't you want a keyboard that's even better

01:20:03   as a keyboard than the Smart Cover?

01:20:07   Well, that's exactly what this Logitech seems like.

01:20:10   We don't know the details.

01:20:11   They've only shown one little carefully cropped photo of it,

01:20:15   but I mean, that's what it seems like to me.

01:20:17   - Yeah, I still have a drafting table

01:20:19   that I've used since I was in high school,

01:20:20   and I was figuring, you know,

01:20:21   could I put the iPad Pro on that,

01:20:23   and then tilt it down when I wanna draw on it,

01:20:25   then tilt it up and just stick it in the keyboard

01:20:27   I'm trying to figure out all the possible use cases.

01:20:30   It's almost like a lazy boy situation now

01:20:31   where you can recline as much as you want.

01:20:33   - Yeah.

01:20:34   Yeah, exactly.

01:20:36   I wonder how much you can adjust the Logitech keyboard.

01:20:39   And obviously there's gonna be others.

01:20:41   Everybody else who makes these sort of peripherals

01:20:43   is going to make something for this.

01:20:45   And it is going to be a MFI port.

01:20:51   Is MFI still made for iPhone?

01:20:53   - Or iPod originally, but yeah,

01:20:55   like even the Apple Watch stuff,

01:20:56   I think they're calling MFI songs at MFW.

01:20:58   - Right, which is really weird there

01:21:00   because there's no I involved.

01:21:03   Yeah, it's gonna be MFI, it's exactly,

01:21:07   licensed exactly along the same way

01:21:09   that they license things like the Lightning adapter.

01:21:12   So anybody who wants to is gonna be able to play along.

01:21:15   But I think that's really interesting.

01:21:17   And it really occurs to me,

01:21:18   people have been chasing the dream of the docked computer.

01:21:22   I mean, as long as there have been portables.

01:21:24   I mean, and Apple's had, you know,

01:21:26   what were they called, the duos?

01:21:27   - Yeah, PowerBook duos. - The PowerBook duos

01:21:29   with docs, and there's pros and cons with all of 'em,

01:21:32   but the big thing whenever you try to do it is,

01:21:36   and you know, even today, maybe not,

01:21:38   there's no doc for a MacBook Pro,

01:21:41   but certainly you can, and I know lots and lots of people

01:21:45   who do live off one computer that's probably a MacBook Pro,

01:21:50   but when they get to their desk,

01:21:53   they have a nice big display to connect it to.

01:21:56   The hassle of the docked lifestyle

01:22:02   is in the tethering and untethering

01:22:04   of all the various things you need to plug in,

01:22:06   power and USB and,

01:22:09   you know, especially on the Mac,

01:22:12   the big annoying thing is if you have,

01:22:14   if you need to connect external storage,

01:22:16   well now you've got this thing that you can't just unplug,

01:22:18   you actually have to go in software and unmount it

01:22:21   and make sure that whatever software was using it

01:22:23   is no longer using those open files.

01:22:25   And if you just wanna get up and go,

01:22:27   it's a huge pain in the ass.

01:22:29   With the iPad Pro, you're never gonna have to do

01:22:31   anything but get up and go.

01:22:33   And you probably won't even need, in most cases,

01:22:37   because of the battery life that things get,

01:22:38   you won't even need to plug in lightning

01:22:40   to charge the iPad while you're using it.

01:22:43   You'll just charge the iPad overnight,

01:22:45   come in to the office, and just kachunk,

01:22:48   put it right on your keyboard,

01:22:49   and then whenever you wanna get up and go,

01:22:51   just pick it up.

01:22:53   - And it's super fascinating to me too,

01:22:54   because there are some companies

01:22:55   who really think that they can,

01:22:56   that was a famous Microsoft saying, right, no compromises.

01:23:00   And it resulted in the biggest compromise ever.

01:23:02   'Cause you literally cannot be all things to all people.

01:23:04   You can't serve every market equally well.

01:23:06   And Apple is being very,

01:23:08   they're taking interesting choices here.

01:23:09   Like the MacBook is as close as you can get

01:23:11   to being an iPad while still being a Mac.

01:23:13   And this is as close as you can get to being a MacBook almost

01:23:16   while still being an iPad.

01:23:17   And they're not trying to do it all in one device.

01:23:19   They're giving you these devices

01:23:20   that both have unique identities still,

01:23:22   but are optimized along the same sort of line,

01:23:25   and you just pick which side of it you wanna be on.

01:23:27   - Yeah.

01:23:28   That's a good way to put it.

01:23:33   And there's obviously compromises with all of it.

01:23:36   The compromises with the iPad Pro are obvious.

01:23:39   There is no external storage,

01:23:40   'cause there's no concept of it in iOS.

01:23:42   There is no USB port or USB-C or anything

01:23:44   that you can plug in an external drive.

01:23:46   It doesn't have built-in SD card.

01:23:50   You have to go with the lightning to SD card thing

01:23:53   and it's not, it works, people use it,

01:23:56   but it's not something you're gonna keep plugged in

01:23:58   all the time.

01:23:58   - You have to mostly want a tablet

01:24:00   and then just occasionally wanna use a keyboard

01:24:02   or just for a certain segment of things,

01:24:03   use a keyboard for it.

01:24:05   - So I'm interested, what do you think

01:24:08   they're gonna sell more of?

01:24:09   Off the top of your head,

01:24:10   do you think they're gonna sell more smart keyboards

01:24:12   or pencils?

01:24:13   - I'm just assuming, and maybe I'm biased

01:24:16   because that's my background,

01:24:17   but I'm assuming the pencil because that really is

01:24:19   a completely better take on that technology

01:24:22   where we've had sort of keyboards on iPads before

01:24:25   and maybe Logitech will sell more than Apple even,

01:24:27   we don't know, there'll be fragmented

01:24:30   across a variety of manufacturers.

01:24:32   But I think the pencil's gonna be unique

01:24:33   to this device for a while.

01:24:35   - Yeah, and I think that there's, as kids grow older,

01:24:38   I know the ATP guys mentioned it last week,

01:24:40   but I've heard about it from Apple people for years,

01:24:43   is that the younger you are, the less likely you are

01:24:46   to really give a crap about on-screen keyboard

01:24:48   versus physical keyboard of any kind,

01:24:50   whether it's built into the cover or whatever,

01:24:52   that kids who've grown up or are growing up

01:24:56   in the iOS era see an on-screen touch keyboard

01:25:01   as completely normal.

01:25:03   - It's interesting because previously,

01:25:05   like you and I went through the migration

01:25:07   from digital to become digitally native.

01:25:10   People weren't digitally native, they were analog native.

01:25:12   They were reading newspapers

01:25:13   and they became digitally native.

01:25:14   And now you have people who are touch native

01:25:16   and using external and intermediated input devices

01:25:20   is just not the computing that they understand.

01:25:22   Even when the MacBook launched

01:25:24   and people were complaining they couldn't plug

01:25:25   their external monitor into it,

01:25:26   the amount of people who plugged an external monitor

01:25:28   into a MacBook is tiny.

01:25:29   It's all of our friends on Twitter,

01:25:31   but it's single digit percentage points

01:25:33   and it's just not normal behavior

01:25:35   and that's I think increasingly driving Apple's products.

01:25:37   - Yeah, I think so too.

01:25:38   Anything else on iPad Pro you wanna talk about?

01:25:43   - I mean, I don't have a chance to try them,

01:25:44   but the speakers were just, they were marvelous.

01:25:46   You could just turn these big echo chambers,

01:25:48   four really loud speakers,

01:25:50   and when you rotated from landscape to portrait

01:25:52   or just 360 degrees, it kept up with you.

01:25:55   - Yeah, it occurs to me that for all the bellyaching

01:25:59   that's gone on about the mono output of iOS devices,

01:26:04   that the way that they went stereo with this is like,

01:26:11   oh, and going with four speakers,

01:26:14   That had never occurred to me before.

01:26:16   Maybe because I'm unimaginative.

01:26:19   But, and that, you know, obviously,

01:26:22   just like the screen rotates, the speakers rotate,

01:26:24   or at least, you know, the speakers don't physically rotate,

01:26:27   but the concept of which sound is coming from whichever.

01:26:29   - They crossfade, yeah.

01:26:31   - Right, it knows what's up, what's down,

01:26:32   what's left, what's right,

01:26:33   no matter which way you're holding the device.

01:26:36   And boy, in the demo area, as noisy and crowded as it was,

01:26:41   boy, it certainly seemed like something.

01:26:43   like hey that's something.

01:26:45   - Yeah, it was really impressive.

01:26:47   I just can't wait to actually get the device

01:26:48   and put on like Avengers Age of Ultron or something,

01:26:50   full blast, and start rotating it and see how well it does.

01:26:54   - Yeah, it's kind of interesting and I wonder, you know,

01:26:56   I don't know, a lot of people watch a lot of video on iPads.

01:27:01   It's, sizes obviously makes it better

01:27:06   if you're willing to carry it around,

01:27:07   but boy the difference in sound output

01:27:08   if you're not using headphones is dramatic now.

01:27:10   - And this, I mean before people used to joke

01:27:12   that the iPad was a big iPhone.

01:27:14   I always thought it was more like an iPhone gone IMAX.

01:27:17   And this really is an iPad gone IMAX

01:27:19   because when you're holding it close,

01:27:20   it fills your field of view.

01:27:21   And whether it's a game or a movie or something,

01:27:22   it really is immersive.

01:27:23   - Yeah, totally agree.

01:27:25   The weight, I guess the last thing I'll just mention is,

01:27:30   I know that it sounds bad that it's a little,

01:27:34   like a three hundredths of a pound heavier

01:27:37   than the original iPad,

01:27:39   'cause the original iPad sure feels heavy

01:27:40   compared to modern iPads.

01:27:42   And there's certain scenarios where I guess

01:27:45   if you're walking around with it

01:27:47   and holding it in certain ways,

01:27:48   you're definitely gonna feel that.

01:27:49   But it's so much more balanced

01:27:52   and it sure is hard to believe

01:27:56   that it's as heavy as an original iPad

01:27:57   when you pick it up and hold it

01:27:58   because it's so much more distributed

01:28:01   throughout the whole device.

01:28:02   - Yeah, it's like the iPhone 6 Plus

01:28:04   is equivalent to a smaller, heavier iPhone

01:28:06   but because it's so spread out,

01:28:07   you really don't feel that in normal use,

01:28:08   especially when you hold it near the middle.

01:28:10   - Yeah, it definitely feels lightweight,

01:28:12   even though it's, by iPad standards, humongous.

01:28:16   All right, let's move on.

01:28:20   Let me take another break here and thank our next sponsor

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01:30:06   But if you've got a document that certain people

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01:30:25   So, you know, me and my team is one person,

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01:30:32   Signing off on these agreements and stuff like that

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01:32:08   igloo software comm slash the talk show what was the next thing they announced

01:32:14   Apple TV yeah I don't want to spend too much time on it yet because we just

01:32:18   don't know that much but my first impressions are that it's exactly what I

01:32:23   I wanted and I even bitched last week on the show

01:32:26   that the main thing I really wanted

01:32:28   is something Syracuse has been talking about for years too

01:32:32   is to get fast forward and reverse scrubbing,

01:32:36   get the latency on that and the user experience of that,

01:32:39   modernize that, do what you know that a computer can do

01:32:42   which is give it a good feel and give it a sense

01:32:45   that you know where the hell you're going

01:32:46   and where you're gonna stop.

01:32:48   And at least on the, I know in the on stage demonstrations

01:32:52   that look great.

01:32:53   In the hands-on area, it worked as advertised in my hands.

01:32:58   It was really good.

01:33:00   And that's a real pet peeve. - Especially if you've ever

01:33:01   used the iPhone remote app, where you slide

01:33:04   and it goes too far, it doesn't go far enough.

01:33:06   - It doesn't solve, the iPhone remote app

01:33:08   doesn't solve the problem at all for me.

01:33:10   In fact, it never does.

01:33:11   It never works the way I want it to.

01:33:13   - And this was phenomenal,

01:33:15   it was just exactly where I wanted it to be.

01:33:17   - Now, whether it'll work like that for all content

01:33:20   from all sources, I don't know,

01:33:22   because I have found with the current Apple TV

01:33:25   that some are worse than others.

01:33:27   And iTunes movies, which you don't really stream,

01:33:32   which is kind of download in a chunk work better.

01:33:34   So who knows how the streaming will work.

01:33:38   But I know that there were people from the,

01:33:42   that streaming in particular was something

01:33:44   that they wanted to get better too.

01:33:45   So we'll see how it works in the real world,

01:33:47   and we'll see what kind of partnership they get

01:33:48   with the companies like Netflix and HBO.

01:33:51   - And we're seeing more partnerships too.

01:33:52   Like HBO famously switched to the MLB team

01:33:54   streaming for their, and those companies

01:33:56   are just gonna get better and better at it.

01:33:58   - Well, and I think that they have every interest

01:34:01   in working with Apple on getting their experience

01:34:04   on this thing as good as possible.

01:34:06   And talking to people from the Apple TV team last week,

01:34:09   there's no doubt in my mind that they take that seriously.

01:34:11   Like they're exactly like I was hoping that they were.

01:34:15   They really, they were completely dissatisfied

01:34:18   with the fast forward and reverse experience

01:34:22   on the old Apple TV.

01:34:24   And didn't wanna just make it a little better,

01:34:27   wanted to really kinda bring it to the modern day.

01:34:31   Really just take a great leap forward in that.

01:34:33   And I couldn't be more excited about that.

01:34:36   - And I know this is nerdy, but what I really like

01:34:38   is that for a while now, at least on the Apple TV,

01:34:40   iPhone, and iPad, we've been running iOS under the covers,

01:34:43   so just across the platform.

01:34:44   And now the watch is that too.

01:34:45   They all run iOS and they all have, you know, backboard and frontboard as the platform for

01:34:51   those technologies.

01:34:52   And then the iPhone and iPad have springboard, the watch has carousel, and now Apple TV has,

01:34:55   I forget, it was a pine board and headboard or something.

01:34:58   But they're all the same thing.

01:35:00   They're all running the same platform.

01:35:02   As a user, I don't know the details of the watch compared to the TV, compared to the

01:35:06   iPhone, but I can figure it out because they are very similar things.

01:35:09   And for developers, yes, Apple's doing things like they're making WebKit and the web basically

01:35:15   a private API for the watch and the Apple TV and that does have consequences but essentially

01:35:19   if you know how to make apps for one of them you can make apps for all of them making a

01:35:22   watch extension or making an Apple TV app is not something foreign to you it's not a

01:35:26   whole new platform you have to learn and all the technologies that Apple has been doing

01:35:29   like we talked about for iOS 7 and iOS 8 and now an iOS 9 those are leveraged across all

01:35:35   of these devices and it's one of those things where everything Apple does for one of them

01:35:39   ends up making all of them better again.

01:35:43   - I totally agree, right.

01:35:44   There's a lot of reuse.

01:35:47   - Yeah.

01:35:51   - And everything is not as siloed as it was in the old days.

01:35:56   - No, they have teams working,

01:35:59   like the messages team on the watch knows,

01:36:01   like are part and parcel with the messages team.

01:36:03   Maybe not the exact people,

01:36:04   but they're not segregated anymore.

01:36:06   And on demand resources, I mean, that's interesting at WWDC,

01:36:11   when they talk about it as part of app thinning.

01:36:13   But then you see an Apple TV and they don't want,

01:36:16   and I know there was some concern about this,

01:36:17   but they don't want you to have a 32 gigabyte Apple TV

01:36:20   and you go to download an app

01:36:21   and it says your Apple TV is full.

01:36:23   You have to delete something

01:36:24   and you gotta go and try and figure out.

01:36:25   They don't want you to be anywhere near that experience.

01:36:27   So there, if your Apple TV is empty,

01:36:29   they'll download a 200 megabyte initial file

01:36:32   and then immediately start downloading a two gigabyte tag

01:36:34   and then immediately start downloading more

01:36:36   and as much as they can.

01:36:38   But if your Apple TV is almost full,

01:36:39   they'll download that first really small file,

01:36:41   which will almost assuredly fit,

01:36:43   and then start removing the less frequently used

01:36:46   and older data so they can make room

01:36:47   for the new frequently used data.

01:36:49   And they're doing this whole Nearline management system

01:36:51   that makes these devices, hopefully,

01:36:54   the goal is to make that all seamless for the end user.

01:36:57   And yes, it's absolutely more work for developers

01:36:59   to go through and make these resource slices

01:37:01   and tag them and do everything.

01:37:03   But the result is, you're sitting there

01:37:04   and you wanna play Minecraft,

01:37:05   you don't get that pop-up saying, "Sorry, can't install it."

01:37:08   - Yeah, absolutely.

01:37:10   Yeah, and I think, you know,

01:37:11   and Serenity Caldwell tackled it very ably in a piece,

01:37:16   I don't know if it came out yesterday,

01:37:17   or at least yesterday was when I saw it,

01:37:18   but you know, it quickly got misinterpreted

01:37:23   as apps for Apple TV have a 200 megabyte limit,

01:37:30   and knowing that there's an awful lot of games

01:37:35   that that's not enough for, that's not the case.

01:37:38   It's just a 200 megabyte initial download.

01:37:41   Just to have an app that's on your Apple TV

01:37:44   that you can launch, 200 megabyte limit.

01:37:46   And then after that, whatever other resources you need,

01:37:48   and let's face it, we're mostly talking about games,

01:37:50   you can start downloading immediately.

01:37:52   - And it can be anything.

01:37:55   It can be levels, it could be texture maps,

01:37:57   it could be, like you've seen the introductory tutorial

01:37:59   video, you don't need that anymore, it throws it away.

01:38:02   You don't need these cut scenes anymore.

01:38:03   You don't need these costume packs,

01:38:05   or you don't need this expansion pack.

01:38:07   it just throws those away.

01:38:08   I mean, Guy did a really good explanation of this too.

01:38:11   And I understand that this is not,

01:38:12   if you just use Unity or you just use Epic's engine,

01:38:16   maybe this is, could even be impossible, I don't know,

01:38:18   but it might be very difficult to slice your app this way.

01:38:21   But they're solving for me sitting on my couch

01:38:24   on a small capacity device.

01:38:26   - Yeah.

01:38:27   So I'm impressed by the video latency.

01:38:31   I am delighted at this prospect of apps and games

01:38:36   for the thing.

01:38:37   I think I like the controller.

01:38:40   I don't know that it's gonna be a great controller for games

01:38:43   I think how much gaming actually takes place on this thing

01:38:47   I really don't know about but I think in terms of using it

01:38:51   to watch TV it has the potential to truly

01:38:56   be what we've always hoped Apple TV would be.

01:38:58   - I agree and you can only, right now you can only have

01:39:00   one of them attached and unfortunately--

01:39:02   - The remote you're talking about.

01:39:03   - Yeah you can only have one of the Apple remotes attached

01:39:05   If you want to have other things, you have to use iOS devices, probably running an updated

01:39:09   version of the Apple remote app, or you have to use the made for iPhone, which is now in

01:39:13   the misnomer, the made for iPhone game controllers.

01:39:16   And recently it looks like there was a change in policy that says you have to at least include

01:39:19   controls for the Apple remote.

01:39:21   You can't make a game that's MFI controller only.

01:39:25   And that's led to some consternation too, because the Apple remote doesn't have the

01:39:28   physical capabilities of a full game pad.

01:39:30   - Right, like there's no way to simulate a D-pad

01:39:35   and an analog stick.

01:39:37   - And a trigger button, yeah, and all those things.

01:39:39   - And shoulder buttons and et cetera, et cetera.

01:39:42   So yeah, that's obviously gonna limit,

01:39:44   it's obviously gonna limit some of the games

01:39:50   that can come out, but.

01:39:52   - My hope is that, 'cause again,

01:39:54   this causes a lot of angst on Twitter,

01:39:56   but the best thing you can do is file a radar,

01:39:58   write an article explaining,

01:39:59   Like if you just write an article,

01:40:00   "Apple hates gamers,"

01:40:01   then that doesn't really get anyone's attention.

01:40:02   It's easy to dismiss that.

01:40:04   But write a really informed article

01:40:05   about this is what the game you wanna make,

01:40:07   why it's awesome, and how Apple is stopping you.

01:40:09   And these debates go on inside, like we all hear them.

01:40:11   They go on inside the company too.

01:40:12   There are people fighting for both sides of this

01:40:14   all the time.

01:40:15   And if you have a stake in one side or another,

01:40:17   just arm them as best you can.

01:40:19   - Yeah, I have heard though,

01:40:20   and I know we talked about it offline,

01:40:22   but that the buttons on the remote are programmable

01:40:27   by the app.

01:40:28   So you can use the buttons for game buttons,

01:40:32   but you're still, you know,

01:40:34   you're obviously limited in some way

01:40:35   by the fact that it's just a,

01:40:37   you've got the accelerometer,

01:40:38   so you can do like the paddle game type stuff

01:40:41   that they showed on stage.

01:40:42   And you know, whatever else you can do

01:40:46   with that Wiimote style,

01:40:48   waving the thing at the screen.

01:40:49   And you have a touch pad,

01:40:52   but clearly that's no substitute for a D-pad.

01:40:54   - Yeah, I mean, it's just,

01:40:57   these things are always attention,

01:40:58   whether it's gonna, like what do you need to control

01:41:00   a great entertainment center,

01:41:01   and what do you need to control a great video game?

01:41:04   And I remember using my Xbox media center

01:41:06   with the Xbox controller, and that wasn't great,

01:41:08   I had to go and buy the hardware controller.

01:41:10   But that wasn't stupid for games,

01:41:11   so you end up with these environments.

01:41:13   - I also saw some confusion,

01:41:18   a lot of people seem confused,

01:41:19   that when you look at the user interface guidelines,

01:41:21   that they have the difference,

01:41:22   they have something, things that involve a click,

01:41:25   and things that involve a tap.

01:41:27   And I think, it's funny, I didn't see any confusion

01:41:31   over this until after I'd had my hands on period with them.

01:41:34   I think that,

01:41:37   I think that what it is is that the touch pad

01:41:42   clicks when you press it,

01:41:45   but you can also just tap it without clicking.

01:41:48   Sort of like a MacBook trackpad.

01:41:52   - Yeah, I couldn't get a clear answer about that,

01:41:55   and there was so much going on

01:41:56   and I neglected to follow up properly,

01:41:58   but I heard both that you couldn't, couldn't tap on it.

01:42:01   - Yeah, well, I think you can tap and you can click,

01:42:05   and the click is actually a physical click,

01:42:07   and the tap is just like tapping.

01:42:08   So it's effectively like the way that a MacBook

01:42:11   can have taps that don't actually click it,

01:42:13   and a click, which is a click.

01:42:14   - Like the Magic Trackpad, if you have it set up that way.

01:42:17   - Yeah, I think we're gonna need more than, you know,

01:42:20   two minutes of hands-on area demo time with it

01:42:23   to really figure it out.

01:42:24   - And the Siri stuff, it was way better than I thought it.

01:42:27   'Cause you know, Siri has often been a point of concern

01:42:30   for some people, but I tried all that stuff

01:42:32   and just the ability to say, what did he say?

01:42:33   And it goes back 30 seconds or something

01:42:35   and gives you the subtitles at the same time.

01:42:38   - That is such a great feature, it really is.

01:42:40   And part of it comes to the whole being better at scrubbing

01:42:44   and keeping more of that stream to video

01:42:48   alive in memory so that you can do that.

01:42:51   But then turning on the captions for that,

01:42:54   It's such a great accessibility feature.

01:42:56   And it's one of those accessibility features that is like,

01:43:00   it just shows that accessibility is for,

01:43:03   can be for anybody.

01:43:05   Like you can have, you know,

01:43:07   absolutely nothing that you, you know, perfect vision,

01:43:09   great hearing, you know, no motor skill problems at all.

01:43:14   But a feature like that,

01:43:15   like if you just can't make out what a character said,

01:43:18   that's accessibility, right?

01:43:20   That just shows how accessibility,

01:43:22   don't think of accessibility as being for others,

01:43:24   for people who have some sort of disabilities

01:43:26   or something like that.

01:43:28   It really, you know, it certainly is more important

01:43:31   for people who have disabilities.

01:43:34   But to me, that's a great example of how accessibility

01:43:38   is a mindset and it really works for everybody.

01:43:41   - And it is amazing, 'cause one of the first things

01:43:43   that'll happen when I go to any event,

01:43:44   I imagine it's similar for you,

01:43:45   is I get a bunch of people saying,

01:43:46   "Please ask them before it's over, it's still there."

01:43:48   Because the accessibility community

01:43:50   is incredibly passionate and incredibly engaged,

01:43:52   So they always feel like they don't really make Apple

01:43:54   any money or companies in general

01:43:56   and they'll be the first thing that gets chopped

01:43:57   if any deadlines get tight.

01:43:59   So they're always really, really concerned

01:44:02   that there's not gonna be there.

01:44:03   - And they've seen it with other products.

01:44:05   - Yeah, absolutely.

01:44:06   But day one Apple had voiceover for the Apple TV.

01:44:09   They had voiceover for 3D Touch on the iPhone

01:44:13   and I asked them about that and they said,

01:44:15   it's not even a point of pride for them.

01:44:17   It's just they believe that is something

01:44:18   that has to be done and they have teams of people

01:44:19   making sure it gets done.

01:44:21   Tell me, I don't know anything about voiceover for 3D Touch.

01:44:24   - So right now if you press the 3D Touch on it

01:44:27   and you have voiceover enabled,

01:44:29   it'll tell you what it is and then when it pops up,

01:44:30   you can flick through and it'll read out to you

01:44:32   the different option choices,

01:44:33   for example on a home screen icon,

01:44:35   and then you can choose the one that you want

01:44:37   and that makes it accessible to people

01:44:38   who can't see the actual 3D Touch controls.

01:44:41   - Gotcha, yeah that makes sense.

01:44:43   Yeah, I'm not surprised, but that's really great.

01:44:47   - And the Siri responsiveness in the hands-on demo area

01:44:51   was as good as shown on stage.

01:44:56   I mean, I was completely uncreative

01:44:58   and just did the same thing they did.

01:45:00   I mean, perhaps it wasn't a good test,

01:45:02   but I did the, you know, show me some James Bond movies.

01:45:05   - I did show me episodes of the talk show

01:45:08   where Maltz is a guest and got like 300 results.

01:45:10   (laughing)

01:45:12   - That's a pretty good one.

01:45:15   But I saw other people doing other ones,

01:45:18   I forget what other ones, show me action movies,

01:45:20   only the new ones, and stuff like that worked.

01:45:23   And I, okay, it's not gonna make

01:45:28   a truly magical upgrade year over year.

01:45:34   Siri isn't gonna suddenly become HAL from 2001.

01:45:38   But it does seem like it's getting better,

01:45:41   and it does seem like the Apple TV team in particular

01:45:44   has somehow figured out a way to get it even better

01:45:48   than the other platforms where Siri is available.

01:45:52   - Well, my understanding, I might be wrong,

01:45:53   is that the Siri team was still doing a lot of this work

01:45:55   and it was delivered to the Apple TV team.

01:45:57   But just in general, that team,

01:46:00   'cause Siri is one of those things

01:46:01   where the first time you try it, it seems magical,

01:46:03   but when you do have problems,

01:46:04   you just off-forget it on not using it again.

01:46:06   And they have to be really careful

01:46:07   'cause they don't have that many shots

01:46:08   to make it a permanent part of your workflow.

01:46:11   But with this, Siri does this thing called,

01:46:13   if people aren't familiar with it, sequential inference,

01:46:15   where when you say something

01:46:16   and then you say something else,

01:46:17   it bases its answer not on the thing you most recently said,

01:46:21   but on the context of the history,

01:46:22   going back to when you first started talking to it.

01:46:24   And they were doing that like,

01:46:25   like show me James Bond movies,

01:46:27   only show me the new ones,

01:46:28   only show me the ones with Sean Connery,

01:46:29   only show me the ones with this or that guest star.

01:46:33   And it could keep up with the context

01:46:35   and it could both reduce the amount of options

01:46:38   and increase them in a way that really seemed

01:46:41   like you were talking to somebody.

01:46:42   And that to me was the most impressive thing,

01:46:44   just the way it could do such fast set sorting

01:46:46   and give you a result that was what you wanted.

01:46:48   - Yeah.

01:46:49   Another thing, again, something that's not, you know,

01:46:54   go back seven seconds is a feature that never occurred to me

01:47:01   because it just seemed too good to be true.

01:47:02   Now that I've seen it, I can't wait to have it.

01:47:04   Some of the features though that they have

01:47:05   are things that we've all wanted since forever,

01:47:08   like Universal Search, where if you know you wanna see

01:47:11   Caddyshack you say show me Caddyshack and you have a Netflix subscription and you maybe have HBO

01:47:16   Show me if that if Caddyshack is available for me

01:47:20   So I don't even have to pay anything to get it because it's already on Netflix and show it in one place

01:47:24   Don't make me go into Netflix and search there then go to HBO then go to iTunes

01:47:30   There it is. Now. They've done it. This is one of those things where it really does suck to be Apple

01:47:35   it's almost like

01:47:36   because people have been asking for this for years and Apple wanted to do it for years and the

01:47:40   media companies would not let them.

01:47:42   They did not want to be reduced

01:47:43   to one of many options on a TV set.

01:47:46   And it's almost like when they gave Amazon

01:47:48   DRM free music and wouldn't give it to Apple.

01:47:50   Once in a while, Apple does,

01:47:52   Apple not only does not get what they want,

01:47:53   but gets the opposite of what they want.

01:47:55   And I don't know how they ended up getting this deal,

01:47:57   but when you see it and you start asking for those things

01:47:59   and it just works and I,

01:48:01   the media companies can't be completely happy about that

01:48:03   'cause it does reduce them to a commodity

01:48:05   and they can't be happy about skipping around

01:48:07   and all these things, but Apple was able to do it.

01:48:09   And to me that makes just for a much better experience.

01:48:12   - Yeah, but I think that in some ways,

01:48:14   maybe they sold it to them on the merits

01:48:17   of the user experience, which is,

01:48:19   and especially like if you're a Netflix subscriber,

01:48:24   if you're not, you're not gonna get those results anyway,

01:48:26   'cause you don't have Netflix.

01:48:27   If you are a Netflix subscriber,

01:48:30   and you wanna see a certain movie,

01:48:32   why wouldn't you if the results from Siri say,

01:48:35   okay, you can get it from iTunes,

01:48:37   and it'll be a $1.99 rental or 99 cent rental

01:48:41   or $3.99 rental, or you can just hit play on Netflix.

01:48:44   Why wouldn't you just hit play on Netflix?

01:48:46   - And I believe they're doing it with,

01:48:48   not everyone has access to the search on Apple TV.

01:48:50   I think that's still partner program based.

01:48:52   - Right, and it's definitely partner based.

01:48:57   And so, for example, if and when Amazon submits

01:49:02   an Amazon Prime Video app to the App Store,

01:49:05   just because they've submitted the app,

01:49:07   the content of it won't just show up magically.

01:49:10   Those universal results are limited to partners.

01:49:14   But I really can't see in the modern world

01:49:17   where they wouldn't want to partner with that.

01:49:20   And how many other places are there where you could see it

01:49:23   if it's the same movie or TV show?

01:49:25   How likely is it gonna be?

01:49:28   'Cause HBO usually has a rotation.

01:49:30   Like this month, these are the movies HBO has.

01:49:34   And so sure, maybe sometime there's gonna be a movie

01:49:38   that's available on both Netflix and HBO.

01:49:41   And so you, the person who just did the query,

01:49:44   are gonna pick one and you wouldn't pick the other.

01:49:47   But who's to say you wouldn't have searched

01:49:48   in the one you picked first anyway, right?

01:49:51   In which case you still wouldn't be giving them the play.

01:49:54   And ultimately what Netflix really wants

01:49:56   is you to just remain a subscriber.

01:49:57   I mean, whether you watch, you know,

01:50:00   Smokey and the Bandit on HBO

01:50:02   instead of watching it on Netflix,

01:50:04   doesn't cost them any money if you're still paying

01:50:06   your monthly bill.

01:50:07   And lastly, I think they all seem to know

01:50:10   that the future for these services is their exclusive stuff.

01:50:15   What's made HBO, HBO is HBO exclusive shows

01:50:19   like Game of Thrones and True Detective.

01:50:21   And what's keeping Netflix relevant?

01:50:23   What's keeping, what's making Netflix more popular

01:50:26   than ever?

01:50:27   It's the Netflix original content.

01:50:29   And when you search for that original content,

01:50:31   wouldn't you, why wouldn't you want it to show up?

01:50:33   if you just ask Siri, you know, show me,

01:50:37   you know, what's the Kevin Spacey one?

01:50:39   - House of Cards.

01:50:40   - House of Cards.

01:50:41   Show me House of Cards.

01:50:43   Why wouldn't you want that to show up

01:50:44   as just universal search wherever you are?

01:50:46   I think the fact that they know that the stuff

01:50:48   that's most important for you to find from them

01:50:49   is their exclusive stuff, which you're not,

01:50:52   you can't find anywhere else,

01:50:53   it changes the dynamics of why they would want

01:50:56   to be involved in that.

01:50:58   - Yeah, the entire thing is changing.

01:51:00   Sometimes it's frustratingly slow,

01:51:01   but I think absolutely at a certain point,

01:51:03   they're gonna be exclusive data

01:51:04   and that's more important than being an exclusive interface.

01:51:07   - Yeah, and I think if there's anybody

01:51:08   who maybe wouldn't want to be involved in it

01:51:10   for a nickel and diming,

01:51:12   from a nickel and diming angle, it would be Apple,

01:51:14   in terms of if your option would be to rent it from Apple,

01:51:19   and this is right now speaking before

01:51:21   any sort of hypothetical streaming package

01:51:23   that they might offer in the future,

01:51:24   but as of today, as of when we first get

01:51:26   our first new Apple TVs later this year,

01:51:29   If there's a movie that they have for rent,

01:51:33   but Netflix has it or HBO has it,

01:51:35   and you're a Netflix and HBO subscriber,

01:51:38   it's gonna cost Apple money,

01:51:39   'cause you're not gonna rent it,

01:51:40   you're gonna go watch the copy of it you can see for free.

01:51:43   - Well, to your point though,

01:51:44   I mean, their biggest deal now is the early access things

01:51:46   where you can get, for example,

01:51:48   Age of Ultron or something else,

01:51:49   weeks before any other service,

01:51:51   and yes, it's full price,

01:51:52   but if you want it badly enough, you can have it.

01:51:54   - Well, and ultimately,

01:51:55   I think it just gets to the usual Apple mantra of,

01:51:58   that, you know, let's just make it awesome.

01:52:00   Let's make an awesome experience

01:52:01   and we'll worry about, you know,

01:52:02   we'll get our money eventually.

01:52:04   But we don't have to make every single $3

01:52:06   that we have, you know, at a time

01:52:08   that we theoretically could get.

01:52:10   If people are gonna be happy using Netflix on Apple TV, good.

01:52:13   - Yeah, they would absolutely rather you have an Apple TV

01:52:16   than they worry about who you're gonna rent something from.

01:52:18   - Yeah, so we still haven't even talked about the iPhones.

01:52:22   - I know. (laughs)

01:52:24   - This is such a long show.

01:52:26   - With so much to cover.

01:52:28   iPhone 6S.

01:52:31   - Yes.

01:52:32   - I heard there's anything, anything surprising?

01:52:38   - No, I liked Apple's tagline because every year

01:52:42   they get shit free.

01:52:42   All it looks exactly the same as the last one,

01:52:44   which is the same with the 911.

01:52:45   Every Nokia phone has looked the same for years.

01:52:47   Every HTC phone, every Samsung, I mean, they're phones.

01:52:51   And this year they sort of turned that around

01:52:52   where they said nothing has changed except for everything.

01:52:54   And I thought that was a good wink and nod to that meme.

01:52:56   - And I really like that commercial.

01:52:58   The way that the commercial just takes that reaction

01:53:01   square on and even starts with it.

01:53:04   Even really starts, and with the narrator, Lake Bell,

01:53:08   really isn't, she's not, she doesn't sound sarcastic.

01:53:11   She really sounds like she's going with the idea

01:53:13   that there's not much that's new

01:53:15   and then starts telling you everything that's new.

01:53:18   And ultimately, I don't know, my take is that if anything,

01:53:24   If you're on a two year upgrade cycle,

01:53:26   if you get a new iPhone every two years,

01:53:28   which is totally sensible, it's a lot more sensible

01:53:30   than the get one, buy everyone that comes out

01:53:33   upgrade cycle that I'm on, I mean, you know, likewise.

01:53:36   I think it's totally sensible.

01:53:38   I think in general, you're better off on the S cycle.

01:53:42   - Yes.

01:53:44   - I think that the S upgrades are often the ones

01:53:46   that have the more stuff.

01:53:48   I think it was the 5S that invented touch,

01:53:50   that not invented, but brought Touch ID to us.

01:53:53   Yeah, 4S was Siri, 3S was the new chipset and video recording.

01:53:57   Yeah, and some of the performance upgrades really seem most noticeable.

01:54:02   And that goes back to the original S, the 3GS.

01:54:04   The 3GS was a huge upgrade, maybe in hindsight.

01:54:09   It's hard to rate these things because it's largely an iterative process and it's been

01:54:14   so close to annual that you really, we've been hearing these complaints ever since the

01:54:21   3G.

01:54:22   I mean, honestly, the second iPhone ever made,

01:54:26   well, now it's plastic and all they did was add 3G.

01:54:30   And every single year since then,

01:54:33   some of the same people have been complaining

01:54:35   that this is not a major upgrade.

01:54:37   And yet here we are, you know, eight years later

01:54:41   and we have this phone instead of the original iPhone

01:54:44   and it's almost incomprehensible how much better it is.

01:54:48   I mean, every year is like that,

01:54:49   it's incremental in some ways.

01:54:52   But I think in general, some of the more impressive

01:54:55   engineering stuff comes on the S year cycles

01:54:59   when they can work within the design constraints

01:55:02   of the previous year.

01:55:04   - Yeah, it seems oftentimes, and I guess it depends

01:55:06   on what department you're in, that your chief challenge

01:55:08   in the redesign years is to get all your stuff

01:55:10   to fit in the new design, whether it's a camera

01:55:13   or a processor, it's thinner, it's got more

01:55:15   thermal constraint, and you've gotta figure all that out.

01:55:17   And then you figured that out already, you've paid that tax,

01:55:19   and the next year you can just start racing ahead again.

01:55:22   - Right, I think like the six obviously was about

01:55:25   making it bigger, and that certainly is

01:55:27   some engineering involved.

01:55:29   But all of the technologies were the same

01:55:31   as the technologies that were there before.

01:55:33   And it's the S-year model that comes with 3D Touch.

01:55:37   - Yeah, and you always wonder what story,

01:55:41   like to me, and I think we've talked about this before,

01:55:43   to me what Apple is gonna do is never that interesting.

01:55:46   It's the same reason, like I don't wanna know

01:55:47   what's gonna happen in the new Star Wars movie.

01:55:49   I wanna see how well they're gonna realize it.

01:55:51   If you just look at Phantom Menace on paper,

01:55:54   you know, there's this character, that character,

01:55:55   that tells you what's gonna happen,

01:55:57   but it doesn't tell you what the movie is gonna be.

01:55:59   And I wanna see how Apple presents this stuff.

01:56:01   Like you hear about, you know,

01:56:03   they use Force Touch in the watch,

01:56:04   they use it in the trackpad,

01:56:05   they're gonna use it in the phone,

01:56:06   but how are they gonna use it?

01:56:08   And what difference is it gonna make in me using the phone?

01:56:10   That's always a super interesting part.

01:56:12   And they did way better with that

01:56:14   than I thought they were gonna do.

01:56:15   They just made a really well-crafted story

01:56:17   around 3D Touch for me.

01:56:19   - I think it's interesting that they've settled

01:56:24   on this two year cycle of industrial design.

01:56:29   And it's been, other than the original iPhone,

01:56:33   it has been, I mean, there's been no exceptions whatsoever.

01:56:38   So there's the original iPhone, which was like a one-off.

01:56:41   Then there was the 3G.

01:56:42   Then the 3GS, which was exactly from the outside,

01:56:47   you know, like the 3G but with better internals.

01:56:50   Then the 4, then the 4S, then the 5, then the 5S, 6S.

01:56:54   I, you know, again, you know, like I proved last week,

01:57:00   you can definitely go wrong by expecting

01:57:02   that Apple will keep doing in the future

01:57:04   what it's done in the past.

01:57:05   But for some reason I feel like it really works

01:57:08   for them here and that they've got this down

01:57:10   and that it gives the industrial design team two years

01:57:14   to come out with what's next.

01:57:16   and they're not scrambling every year.

01:57:18   And I think it gives the ecosystem

01:57:24   an extra year of like case compatibility.

01:57:28   I know that there was some talk or speculation,

01:57:31   I haven't even looked at the specs.

01:57:32   I honestly don't even know,

01:57:34   but that the 6Xs are slightly,

01:57:37   like in terms of tenths of a millimeter thicker or something.

01:57:42   But I asked and they are case compatible.

01:57:45   Like any case that was certified for your iPhone 6

01:57:48   should fit on a 6S.

01:57:50   - Well, that's like a super cheap case

01:57:51   with no manufacturing tolerances at all.

01:57:54   - But that, yeah, so there might be exceptions,

01:57:56   but I think the ones, I think like, I don't know.

01:58:00   To my knowledge, if there are exceptions,

01:58:02   it would have to be something that is, you know,

01:58:04   some kind of totally rigid thing, I don't know.

01:58:07   I honestly-- - Yeah, no,

01:58:08   they're compatible.

01:58:09   Within tolerance levels, they're completely compatible.

01:58:11   - And that's such a big deal for some of the things

01:58:13   that ecosystem wise are such a big advantage

01:58:16   of being an iPhone user, like when you go to Disney World

01:58:20   and if you wanna buy a case from Disney for your iPhone.

01:58:24   The fact that all the ones they already have

01:58:29   are gonna fit the phone, like if you buy a new phone

01:58:31   now in September, you can just go there

01:58:33   and all those cases that are running in stores already work.

01:58:36   It's a huge advantage.

01:58:38   - Yeah, and the manufacturer will tell you

01:58:39   exactly the same thing, that they don't have to

01:58:41   cut new cases every year and also they don't have

01:58:43   and try and cover nine or 10 different designs

01:58:45   from the same company every year.

01:58:46   - Right, yeah, I totally think so.

01:58:48   And for example, so like for the engineering team

01:58:51   working on 3D Touch, and who knows how many years

01:58:53   they've been working on this.

01:58:55   - A lot apparently.

01:58:56   - Probably a lot.

01:58:57   But they, as soon as the hardware design

01:59:00   for the 6 and 6S was set,

01:59:03   a whole bunch of the constraints

01:59:06   that they would have to know to worry about were set.

01:59:09   And yes, they made a change and they switched

01:59:11   from whatever series of aluminum to 7,000 series of aluminum.

01:59:15   And I'm sure there were all sorts of little things

01:59:17   along the way where they got, you know,

01:59:19   monkey wrenches thrown into works.

01:59:21   But at a basic level, they knew the sizes of the devices

01:59:24   that they would be working with.

01:59:25   They knew the sizes of the displays.

01:59:27   And I, you know, and that's not like they knew that

01:59:31   last year, that's like they knew that two years ago

01:59:34   because the design of the 6 and 6 Plus

01:59:36   was set two years ago, a year in advance.

01:59:40   You know, somewhere within Apple there's a team

01:59:42   that knows exactly what the iPhone 7

01:59:43   is gonna look like next year.

01:59:44   - Yeah, if not further ahead.

01:59:46   - Yeah, it might have been set months ago.

01:59:49   'Cause that's how far in advance

01:59:50   some of this stuff has to go.

01:59:52   But I can only assume that that's the schedule

01:59:58   that they're on.

01:59:58   But I don't think there's any advance.

01:59:59   I just think as the years go on,

02:00:02   I've always thought this, but I think as the years go on,

02:00:04   you look more and more superficial

02:00:06   if you really are gonna judge whether the iPhone

02:00:09   is an improvement year over year

02:00:10   just by whether the exterior design looks new.

02:00:13   - Yeah, I wanna tweet that every year

02:00:15   and just make a general reminder to people

02:00:16   that we know who are reviewing these things

02:00:18   that human beings aren't buying them every year.

02:00:20   For a lot of people, they're upgrading from a 4S, a 5,

02:00:22   a 5C, a 5S, and it's a substantial upgrade.

02:00:26   And the really funny thing is that Apple can do all this

02:00:29   and people will say, "Oh, it's boring.

02:00:30   "It's not a big upgrade."

02:00:32   And then they'll make it like gold or rose gold

02:00:34   and some of it flying off the shelves

02:00:35   because it turns out you scratch our surface

02:00:37   and what you find more surface.

02:00:39   - Yeah, well speaking of that before we move on,

02:00:43   what did you think of the new rose gold anodized aluminum?

02:00:47   - That's what I ordered.

02:00:48   - Did you really?

02:00:49   - Yeah. - Wow.

02:00:50   - I tried to get the new color

02:00:51   because I photograph these things a lot

02:00:53   and it's a very monotonous page

02:00:55   when everything is the same color.

02:00:57   So I always try to get whatever new is available

02:00:58   'cause it livens things up.

02:01:00   But I was interested, I wasn't sure if it was gonna be

02:01:01   'cause usually rose gold is much more coppery than this

02:01:04   and this is really much more rose than it is gold.

02:01:07   and the watch matches and it's different,

02:01:11   it's a very different direction for Apple.

02:01:13   - That was one of the things I was interested in,

02:01:16   is I know that the watch started them

02:01:18   with the 7000 series aluminum,

02:01:20   and now the phone is on it and talking to them,

02:01:24   and it's one of those questions

02:01:25   where they're not gonna quite give you a complete answer,

02:01:27   but you know, like a wink-wink judge answer,

02:01:29   is it the same aluminum?

02:01:30   And it's like, yeah, it's the same aluminum.

02:01:33   It's, you know, and it's the same metallurgy teams

02:01:36   working hand in hand.

02:01:38   So looking at it, I was looking at the watch,

02:01:40   the rose gold watch at the event last week.

02:01:43   And it's under the, like I said, this really nice lighting.

02:01:46   Like really nice, I mean you just cannot believe

02:01:48   it's not sunlight lighting.

02:01:49   Like nice and diffuse and seemingly a very, very

02:01:53   neutral color.

02:01:54   And the guy from Apple at the desk, I was like,

02:01:59   well, what do you have a question?

02:02:00   I was like, I'm just curious how well it matches the phone.

02:02:03   The rose gold phone, but the phones were at another table

02:02:05   and you can't just walk around with these things.

02:02:08   And he goes, oh, you wanna see it?

02:02:09   And they were ready for that, and he had a little key,

02:02:12   and he could unlock a drawer right there,

02:02:13   and even at the watch table,

02:02:14   he could take out a rose gold phone

02:02:16   and put it side by side for me.

02:02:18   And I got really close, I got as close as I could,

02:02:21   and those things are identical.

02:02:24   I mean, it's far beyond the capabilities of my vision

02:02:27   to notice any difference in the color.

02:02:31   - Yeah, I asked them if they could hold it up for me,

02:02:33   and I got a photo of them together,

02:02:34   and they were, it's hard to see from the picture,

02:02:36   but they were so very similar.

02:02:38   But there's almost a running joke,

02:02:40   the space grays have not always matched.

02:02:43   Like they've changed over the years

02:02:44   because black is the hardest color to anodize

02:02:46   and if you try to make it really black,

02:02:48   it chips and it flakes, so you go down to gray

02:02:50   and then maybe you get a little bit better at it

02:02:51   and like with the watch they can make it darker again.

02:02:53   Does that hold up on a phone?

02:02:54   So that's always a moving target.

02:02:56   But my understanding is gold is the easiest color

02:02:58   and some of these variations are much easier

02:03:00   to just nail time after time.

02:03:02   - Yeah, and I, when I was in the,

02:03:07   I mean this is the worst type of evidence,

02:03:10   it's an anecdote of one, but what happened was,

02:03:13   I think it was, was it yesterday or Monday?

02:03:14   Well, one of the last two days,

02:03:16   I was walking my son home from school,

02:03:19   and I know he's really interested

02:03:21   in the Product Red strap, the sports strap.

02:03:24   And so I said, well let's swing by the Apple store

02:03:29   on the way home, it's a beautiful day,

02:03:30   let's walk by and go in and look,

02:03:32   and we went and looked, and not for sale yet,

02:03:34   but they were there on demonstration.

02:03:35   And while we were there, a guy came in

02:03:36   and he wanted to see the rose gold watch.

02:03:39   So, anecdote of one, the new colors seemed popular.

02:03:45   - Yeah, and that's just it, because we do respond.

02:03:48   We respond to some form of individualization

02:03:51   when everybody has the same color watch.

02:03:52   You start to feel like if you get something different,

02:03:55   it's just a little bit more of your own.

02:03:57   - Yeah.

02:03:58   And I, again, I don't, I think it's interesting

02:04:01   It's I I think that the silver

02:04:05   silver back and white face watch and I think you know is is

02:04:09   Truly, I think all of them are but my point is I think they're all relatively gender neutral colors

02:04:15   I think that the rose gold is gonna skew a little bit more towards women and I think space black probably

02:04:22   Watch phone all devices probably skews a little bit more towards men. But even at those extremes, I don't think it's I

02:04:30   Don't think it's that far from 50/50, you know

02:04:33   and if you talk to any I've talked to all the manufacturers over the years and they will always tell you that black is by

02:04:38   Far the biggest seller because it's cliched as it sounds it is a little black shirt a little black dress

02:04:43   It's the one thing that you get that goes with everything and people just tend to go that way because you know

02:04:48   You want to dress it up or you want to do something else?

02:04:49   So you don't be able to notice it and the flashy colors they get a lot of attention, but they're never high sellers

02:04:54   yeah, I think I

02:04:57   Think that maybe if there's if there's a sport band that may be skewed specifically towards women

02:05:03   It's the rose gold with the I think they're calling a lavender. Yeah, they have several is is

02:05:08   Probably, you know pretty feminine, but I guess the way I would put it is even the ones that skew a little feminine don't skew

02:05:16   Girly, none of them look and you know

02:05:19   I mean like in terms of linguistics that there's a difference to me between what's feminine and what's girly and

02:05:23   This stuff doesn't look girly. It looks feminine. No the entire park line like it's not childish in any way that

02:05:29   Everything from the blue like nothing is boyish either. Everything is sort of it's not like it's not a gold gold phone

02:05:35   it's not a hot pink phone everything has sort of this layer of

02:05:39   Not conserved isn't our way but just a restraint on it

02:05:43   I

02:05:46   Think what else I guess the only other thing I can think of right off the top of my head to cover with the iPhone

02:05:50   and success and success plus would be

02:05:53   the live pictures feature?

02:05:54   - That and I was really impressed with the camera.

02:05:56   That was a big question to me.

02:05:58   - Yeah, well and I guess they're semi-related.

02:06:01   There were a lot of arguments last weekend at XOXO

02:06:05   about whether live pictures are a new thing

02:06:09   or whether they're just videos.

02:06:12   They're just really short videos.

02:06:13   - Phones have been doing,

02:06:14   like I just had this ongoing joke

02:06:15   that Nokia invented everything in 1812.

02:06:17   'Cause there have been live pictures on Windows Phone

02:06:19   and there have been live pictures on HTC phones before.

02:06:22   But whoever, inventing it first is like who's being first

02:06:24   in a comment section on the internet, first, first,

02:06:27   is who makes it successful that really matters.

02:06:29   - It reminds me of the photos in the Daily Prophet

02:06:34   in the Harry Potter world.

02:06:36   It's, you know, I don't know, there's still photos.

02:06:40   - But those were visually impressive when you saw the movies.

02:06:42   - Oh, definitely.

02:06:43   They're also visually impressive at Universal Studios

02:06:46   when you look at the, when you go through the rides

02:06:47   down there.

02:06:48   - And I don't know what you heard,

02:06:49   When I was talking to Apple, they were very careful

02:06:51   not to call them videos, but to say that these are

02:06:53   still photos being taken in quick succession

02:06:55   and then animated, like they didn't wanna make it sound

02:06:57   like they were just doing a quick video.

02:06:58   - Wasn't even so much that they wouldn't say

02:07:01   that they're videos, is that if you called them videos,

02:07:03   they would say, no, they're not videos.

02:07:06   These are live photos, and videos are videos,

02:07:08   and these are live photos.

02:07:10   - These are 12 megapixels.

02:07:12   - Yeah.

02:07:12   But yeah, I think the camera is impressive too,

02:07:18   But that's the sort of thing that's really hard to tell from their demos.

02:07:21   And you certainly can't take any pictures in the hands-on area that prove anything.

02:07:25   But the interesting thing to me was that when you generally, a lot of times when you take

02:07:29   a camera and you add megapixels, a lazy company will just cut up the sensor into smaller and

02:07:33   smaller bits.

02:07:34   And then you get less and less light in those pixels.

02:07:37   And you get shittier pictures.

02:07:38   They are noisy and there's not a lot of fine-grained detail.

02:07:41   And yes, you can still crop them and digitally zoom them, but you're dealing with bad data.

02:07:45   And Apple went to a lot of, like they did not,

02:07:48   the iPhone camera's always been about making

02:07:49   really, really smart compromises on aperture

02:07:51   and sensor size and all these things.

02:07:53   And I was happy they kept doing it.

02:07:55   They didn't just capitulate and say,

02:07:56   we'll put an 18 megapixel or 30 megapixel lens on here.

02:08:00   They went to 12, but they did, you know,

02:08:02   and Phil Shiller kind of made fun of himself,

02:08:04   but they did do the deep trench isolation,

02:08:07   which if only the Death Star had,

02:08:08   we, the Empire would still be in business.

02:08:11   But--

02:08:11   - That's a good joke.

02:08:13   - But they did that so that you don't get the color bleeding,

02:08:15   and you don't get the noise and it makes for really,

02:08:17   like the sample pictures, and they said they were genuine

02:08:19   and they're always very honest about that.

02:08:21   Those sample pictures in not just low light,

02:08:24   but when you had a light source in the middle

02:08:25   or on the sides in an otherwise low light setting,

02:08:27   they look spectacular.

02:08:28   - Yeah, and it really does seem like the color balancing

02:08:31   that they're doing is really,

02:08:32   the tone that they're getting off the sensor

02:08:34   is extraordinary.

02:08:36   So I'm always super excited about it.

02:08:38   And if there's any way that I can justify

02:08:41   in a logical sense, buy a new iPhone every year.

02:08:45   It's the ever increasing quality of the camera

02:08:49   and the ever increasing proportion

02:08:52   of the photos I take every year that I take with my iPhone.

02:08:56   Like buying a new iPhone every year

02:08:58   is going to make the pictures I take on my family

02:09:01   in the year 2016 better than they would be if I didn't.

02:09:05   - And that's what I like is that goal.

02:09:06   I think their goal is not to do a bunch of crazy stuff.

02:09:08   Their goal is that you take the phone from your pocket

02:09:10   and you snap something that's important to you,

02:09:12   and the better chance you have of getting a great shot

02:09:15   is what they're gonna focus on.

02:09:17   - Their ambitions in photography are boundless.

02:09:20   There is no limit to it.

02:09:21   There is no good for a phone sort of mindset.

02:09:26   Their goal, and in their mind, I think internally,

02:09:32   they still feel like the camera in the iPhone 6S

02:09:34   and 6S Plus is shitty.

02:09:36   Their goals are so far ahead

02:09:39   for where they want to get to.

02:09:41   And I feel like that sort of doggedness is what you need

02:09:44   to get the sort of iterative improvements

02:09:46   that we're getting every year.

02:09:47   - They consider themselves a camera company.

02:09:49   - Oh, absolutely.

02:09:50   Schiller said it on stage with me at the show.

02:09:52   I said, "Do you consider yourselves

02:09:56   "one of the leading camera companies in the world?"

02:09:58   And he said, "The leading camera company."

02:10:00   I mean, I think it was the only time in the whole interview

02:10:03   where he sort of bragged a little bit.

02:10:05   - And they're like the chips.

02:10:07   They will spend boundless amounts of money

02:10:08   'cause they don't make money on the camera,

02:10:10   they make it on the entire iPhone

02:10:11   and that affords them the luxury

02:10:12   of deeply investing in these technologies.

02:10:14   - Yeah, it's really, really interesting.

02:10:16   Anything else on the phone?

02:10:19   I don't wanna, I wanna get to iOS 9,

02:10:21   so I'd rather, we can talk about the phone.

02:10:22   - Yeah, no, it's got like interesting wireless and stuff,

02:10:24   but yeah.

02:10:25   - Yeah, we can talk about that detail later.

02:10:28   I wanna do one more sponsor

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02:14:09   towards any mattress. So those prices I quoted, you'll save 50 bucks. You'll get a king-sized

02:14:16   mattress for 900 bucks. So go there, use the code "the-talk-show." And if you need a mattress,

02:14:20   keep them in mind. Alright, iOS 9. Man, we really left a lot of time for this.

02:14:25   Luckily, here's the thing. The reason I wanted you on this week. I've read your

02:14:30   review. You were nice enough to give me advance access to it. Really, really

02:14:34   comprehensive. Again, just like the phone itself, you can say, looking at iOS 9,

02:14:41   "Wow, this doesn't look like that big a deal year over year." I read your

02:14:45   review and really dig into everything that's new and it almost seems it it

02:14:51   just seems like it's too much year-over-year like not too much like

02:14:54   it's overwhelming the user but too much I can't believe Apple pulled off all of

02:14:57   this yeah I mean I thought I was in for an easy year because like the rumor was

02:15:01   they punted a lot of stuff till the future and even if that's the case there

02:15:05   I just kept writing and it wasn't that I wanted to write this much about it I

02:15:08   would have much preferred to you know go to Vegas or something but this it there

02:15:12   was just so much in it and it was so much stuff that wasn't really apparent

02:15:15   because when they gave the list that tentpole list,

02:15:18   like new notes app, new news app, smarter Siri,

02:15:22   but when you start digging into it,

02:15:23   I mean they didn't even put content blockers up on stage,

02:15:26   that was all in the sessions.

02:15:28   There is so much just incredibly interesting technology

02:15:31   and things that really make the experience,

02:15:33   it seems like they're really focused on performance,

02:15:35   but not just how fast the processor goes,

02:15:37   but how fast you can move around the system

02:15:39   and how enjoyable that experience is.

02:15:41   - This is, that's the most common question

02:15:44   I've been getting today from people is,

02:15:47   and it makes sense, 'cause everybody out there

02:15:50   who hasn't been running the beta over summer,

02:15:52   which is smart, now has the option of upgrading.

02:15:55   And they already have a phone,

02:15:56   and their phone is working okay, pretty good.

02:15:59   And their worry, I think, and it makes sense,

02:16:01   the biggest worry people have is they're gonna upgrade

02:16:03   to iOS 9 and it's gonna feel slow.

02:16:06   - Yeah.

02:16:06   - I ran it all summer long, and not since WWDC like you,

02:16:10   but I upgraded to nine on my daily carry iPhone 6

02:16:15   at some point in July, so it was about a month

02:16:18   after it came out and never once regretted it.

02:16:21   I found, so again, your mileage may vary out there,

02:16:26   I found that it was as fast or faster.

02:16:29   There was never a point where I thought

02:16:31   I saw animation stuttering that didn't stutter before.

02:16:33   It felt pretty good, and in fact,

02:16:37   I would have to say that for betas,

02:16:38   especially for ones that I was running since July,

02:16:40   I found the whole OS to be remarkably stable.

02:16:43   - The one thing that I always point out to people

02:16:45   is that when you first download

02:16:46   and you first install a new version of iOS,

02:16:48   there's so much that's going on internally.

02:16:50   It's updating libraries, it's migrating data,

02:16:52   it's re-indexing all the spotlight stuff,

02:16:54   especially this year with all the new spotlight things,

02:16:57   that it is gonna be operating as fast as it can for a while

02:16:59   and it's gonna be using,

02:17:00   like the radios are gonna be on

02:17:01   and the process is gonna be on

02:17:03   and it may not be the best experience,

02:17:05   but give it that day, give it that data update

02:17:07   and then sort of make up your mind.

02:17:08   - Yeah, like just because it's let you restart

02:17:11   and log in and go through the little welcome thing

02:17:15   that you go through when you do a major update

02:17:17   doesn't mean that it's done with everything.

02:17:19   - Yeah. - Yeah.

02:17:20   Did you find that, do you find it to be as fast or faster?

02:17:23   - I find it to be better and I did some tests

02:17:25   with one of the betas on an iPhone 4S

02:17:27   and it was very good.

02:17:28   I don't, I wanna do it on the release version,

02:17:30   I haven't had a chance yet

02:17:31   because that to me is a really honest test

02:17:33   and let you install it, let it wait a day

02:17:34   and then try everything on it.

02:17:36   But Apple seemed especially laser focused after last year

02:17:39   to make the ability to install and run iOS even better.

02:17:43   So they're shedding a lot of things

02:17:44   that don't need to be on older devices.

02:17:46   They're even shedding features when, you know,

02:17:48   people would like every feature,

02:17:49   but some of them don't make sense on lower powered,

02:17:51   the lower processor powered devices.

02:17:53   And they're doing all that.

02:17:54   They thin down the OS to one gigabyte.

02:17:56   They're doing all the app thinning stuff.

02:17:58   They are, they really want, 'cause they have relatives.

02:18:01   I think you've said this.

02:18:02   They have relatives who are running these devices

02:18:03   and they want that to be a great experience.

02:18:05   and they want people to update to another iPhone.

02:18:07   They don't have to get pissed off and go to another phone.

02:18:10   So it really behooves them to get all this right.

02:18:12   - Yeah, I think one of the things that I think

02:18:14   most annoys people in Apple, from Tim Cook, I think, down,

02:18:18   but especially to the people who work on this stuff,

02:18:20   is that it really annoys them that there's this

02:18:23   widespread belief that Apple purposefully

02:18:26   makes a new version of iOS, make your old film slow,

02:18:30   old phone feel slow so that you'll upgrade

02:18:32   to a new phone right away.

02:18:33   - People Google iPhone slow at peak velocity

02:18:36   because every single iPhone in the world

02:18:37   is updated on the same day,

02:18:39   where every Android phone is updated on other days,

02:18:41   so they Google that over an entire year and it doesn't peak.

02:18:45   - And that's not to say that it hasn't happened.

02:18:47   That's not to say that there haven't been iOS updates

02:18:49   that have performed disappointingly on older hardware,

02:18:52   and especially if you're maybe two years behind.

02:18:55   And there's the, hey, isn't Apple,

02:18:58   the one angle is, isn't it great that Apple supports

02:19:01   so many years back of iPhone models,

02:19:04   as opposed to Android,

02:19:06   where this year's new version of Android,

02:19:09   it often is available on phones going back one year.

02:19:14   But the flip side of that is that there have been

02:19:16   some releases where the lowest supported phone,

02:19:19   especially, performs worse than that.

02:19:22   And it is what it is,

02:19:27   and whether that's a mistake or not,

02:19:28   or strategically on Apple's part,

02:19:30   but the people who hear it,

02:19:32   they're nothing but disappointed in themselves for it.

02:19:35   They really are.

02:19:35   And they really do,

02:19:37   their interest is not in selling,

02:19:40   or their primary interest is not in selling

02:19:43   this year's new phone right now

02:19:44   to as many people as possible.

02:19:45   Their interest is in making as many people as possible

02:19:49   happy and satisfied iPhone customers

02:19:51   so that their next phone,

02:19:53   whenever they buy it, will be an iPhone.

02:19:54   And that one way, the easiest way they could burn

02:19:57   through that is by making people think things

02:20:00   like hey Apple is just trying to screw you

02:20:03   with the iOS updates and make your phone feel slow.

02:20:07   - Yeah when I heard they were gonna support everything

02:20:08   that iOS 8 supported I felt that they were probably

02:20:10   pretty confident that they've got this under control.

02:20:12   - Yeah I think so.

02:20:13   I have heard, and maybe they even announced this,

02:20:16   I don't even know if that, I don't know why they would,

02:20:18   but going back to WWDC I had heard that they were doing

02:20:22   a lot more, have engineers actually carry older phones

02:20:28   for some period of time during development

02:20:30   or for whatever they're working on.

02:20:31   And so that it's not just like, oh, go install it

02:20:34   on an iPhone 5 and run a few tests and see if it's all right.

02:20:38   But do some serious dogfooding on older iPhones themselves,

02:20:44   just to sort of keep themselves honest.

02:20:46   No better motivator in the world.

02:20:48   I don't know if that's true, though.

02:20:49   I mean, how do you find the volunteers to do that?

02:20:52   [LAUGHTER]

02:20:54   Oh.

02:20:55   What is going on?

02:21:01   This isn't something-- even having read your review,

02:21:03   I'm not 100% sure on.

02:21:04   So with the new Notes app-- the new Notes app

02:21:06   is a major, major update.

02:21:09   It really does-- like you say, you previously

02:21:11   used Apple's built-in notes as sort of a--

02:21:14   and it's exactly how I've used it for a long time,

02:21:16   as a multi-device, multi-platform clipboard,

02:21:20   where for a couple of pieces of text or URLs

02:21:23   or something like that, something where even like Handoff

02:21:25   isn't quite what you want,

02:21:26   'cause you wanna do it later or something.

02:21:28   - Yes.

02:21:29   - Just put something here and then I know from there,

02:21:32   you know, whether I'm on my phone or whether I'm on my Mac,

02:21:34   I can put something there and then later,

02:21:36   when I'm on something else,

02:21:38   I can go and I know where it is and I can get it.

02:21:40   And then I can, usually I just delete them, you know,

02:21:42   it's little temporary things.

02:21:44   And that Notes now, the built-in Notes app

02:21:46   is now a serious Notes app and it's got, you know,

02:21:50   a lot more pages-like features with titles and headings

02:21:55   and stuff like that and styles and built-in checklists

02:21:59   and a lot more features related to image attachments.

02:22:03   And you can do doodles in them now too.

02:22:05   - Yeah.

02:22:06   - And they even--

02:22:07   - And that's pressure sensitive on a 6S,

02:22:09   which is really nice.

02:22:10   - That's crazy.

02:22:11   - Yeah.

02:22:12   - But I don't see that yet,

02:22:16   and I think it's because I haven't hit the upgrade button.

02:22:19   Is that right?

02:22:20   that's the thing you have to do to get those new features.

02:22:23   And the hitch with the upgrade button,

02:22:26   it's just sort of like you're going from the old notes

02:22:29   to the new notes.

02:22:30   And when you go to the new notes,

02:22:33   the biggest thing is that syncing only takes place

02:22:36   through iCloud Drive.

02:22:37   And it's no longer doing that hack that

02:22:40   used based on IMAP folders.

02:22:43   Yes.

02:22:44   But the hitch is, once you've done it,

02:22:47   you've kinda gotta, you know, you gotta get everything

02:22:50   on the latest and greatest.

02:22:51   And the thing I've been putting off,

02:22:53   and probably will put off for a while,

02:22:54   is upgrading my Macs to El Capitan.

02:22:58   - Yeah, it's because they still don't really,

02:22:59   and I don't want them to release everything on the same day,

02:23:02   but every year now we're having this thing

02:23:03   where half of something is ready on iOS in September,

02:23:07   and then you have to wait 'til October

02:23:08   to have the other half of it.

02:23:09   Like I think it was iCloud Drive last year,

02:23:11   and it was something else the year before.

02:23:13   - Yeah, so if anybody out there is confused,

02:23:16   I thought I had the story, but I just wanted to make sure with you, but if anybody's out there is confused

02:23:19   Why they can't put doodles in their notes even after they upgrade to iOS 9

02:23:23   It's it's because you're like me and you didn't do this upgrade which they're very clear about they did once you upgrade this than the sinking

02:23:30   You'll need your need your max on El Capitan to do the sinking and you know if you're not the old system

02:23:35   It's just not capable of sinking all the data types that are in the new notes app. Yeah, I don't blame them

02:23:39   I don't in fact that makes it makes more I'd be more worried if they let it if they tried to do it

02:23:44   You know, I really would because the whole IMAP syncing thing that Notes did was a clever

02:23:49   work around, but it's a terrible, terrible hack.

02:23:51   Like using IMAP as the syncing back for Notes is just a terrible hack.

02:23:58   Yeah.

02:23:59   No, yeah.

02:24:00   And this is a nice clean modern, not just a nice clean modern Notes app, but a nice

02:24:03   clean modern architecture for it.

02:24:05   Yeah.

02:24:06   So I'm really looking forward to that, but I wanted to see it.

02:24:10   What about Apple News?

02:24:12   Do you use it?

02:24:13   I have used it a little bit.

02:24:15   Apple news is one of those things where it's not,

02:24:17   it's only officially supported in the US right now.

02:24:19   It's supposed to be in the UK and Australia,

02:24:21   but there was an article saying it's being delayed

02:24:22   in the UK and that, and so I had to flip my,

02:24:26   my iPhone to the US in order to get it.

02:24:28   Now I'm getting directions in miles,

02:24:29   whatever the hell those are, but it's,

02:24:31   it's, and as people weren't putting content in yet,

02:24:34   'cause it wasn't really switched on, but it's a huge,

02:24:37   it's a huge, interesting thing for me because,

02:24:39   is it really worthwhile of Wired and Vanity Fair

02:24:42   and all these articles to make content specific

02:24:44   for Apple News and to sell ads.

02:24:46   And yes, you can funnel in your old ads,

02:24:48   but you can also sell iAds specifically for it.

02:24:50   And this goes into the whole content blocker discussion,

02:24:53   but a lot of companies just don't wanna have to deal

02:24:55   with that complexity.

02:24:56   They want one place to go to sell ads

02:24:58   and one place to go to buy ads.

02:24:59   And they want one type of content that they can,

02:25:01   you know, spit out a PDF or a ping and put it everywhere.

02:25:04   So I just wanna see what sort of reward Apple gives people,

02:25:08   like whether it's gonna be huge volumes of eyeballs

02:25:10   that makes them wanna put in the effort

02:25:11   to support all of this.

02:25:12   I find, I've tried to get into it and it just never sticks

02:25:15   and there's nothing I can put my finger on

02:25:17   that's wrong with it.

02:25:18   And sometimes I've found plenty of articles

02:25:22   that I've enjoyed.

02:25:23   But I never find my, the only reason I ever go to it

02:25:26   is 'cause I think I wanna get to know this.

02:25:29   This is new, it seems important to me.

02:25:30   I mean it seems important on a couple levels as a user,

02:25:33   but it also seems important to me

02:25:34   as the guy who runs during Fireball,

02:25:36   I gotta understand this.

02:25:37   But the only reason I ever launch it,

02:25:38   and like I said, I've been running the iOS since,

02:25:42   since July, I only go there when I force myself to go there.

02:25:45   It just isn't for me.

02:25:48   I don't find it compelling.

02:25:50   But I don't know.

02:25:51   See, it's one of those things that this is an app

02:25:53   in particular where I really wanna get to know it,

02:25:55   but it really, like what do I do?

02:25:57   What does John Gruber do?

02:25:59   In some sense, I'm like a professional news junkie.

02:26:01   Like what I do is like my career is being

02:26:06   an obsessive news junkie who reads and reads and reads.

02:26:09   And so maybe it's no surprise that this isn't for me.

02:26:13   This is meant for people who aren't news junkies

02:26:15   so they don't have to be a news junkie to stay up to date.

02:26:18   - Well, it's a weird experience too

02:26:19   because it does run off of RSS,

02:26:21   but a lot of people don't give full RSS feeds.

02:26:24   So then you start reading a paragraph

02:26:26   and you have to tap a button and you go into a web view.

02:26:28   And I don't even think it's Safari View Controller.

02:26:30   And then you can't, like you can go to,

02:26:33   I can go to Daring Fireball,

02:26:34   but if I've heard that Jon did a great article on something,

02:26:36   I can't search to find it.

02:26:37   I have to swipe to find it.

02:26:39   then if I go to the topic that you wrote about,

02:26:40   I can't find that publication.

02:26:42   So it's not really suited to someone

02:26:45   who's used to a net newswire or a reader

02:26:47   or something like that.

02:26:48   It really is, it is way better in many ways

02:26:51   than the Newsstand app because not everything

02:26:54   is a completely different user experience

02:26:56   every time you launch it.

02:26:57   But it feels like one of those things

02:26:59   where it might take, in a year from now,

02:27:01   we'll see if it's either really, really good

02:27:02   or it's just not gonna go anywhere.

02:27:04   - Yeah, it's nothing like Newsstand

02:27:05   'cause Newsstand was at the root level,

02:27:07   Nothing but literally, I mean, it was a great name for it.

02:27:11   Newsstand was well named.

02:27:12   I don't think it was a great idea,

02:27:13   but it was well named because it's just like

02:27:15   going to a newsstand.

02:27:17   You just see a bunch of covers for publications.

02:27:19   And if anything, you learned less from newsstand,

02:27:21   'cause at least when you look at a real newsstand,

02:27:23   you may be able to read the headlines on the covers.

02:27:26   And you have to pick something and you go off

02:27:27   and everything remains in its own silo.

02:27:29   Like with Apple News, stuff is intermingled

02:27:31   and you'll get like a thing from the New York Times

02:27:34   and a thing from Sports Illustrated and whatever.

02:27:36   but it just isn't for me.

02:27:40   And I didn't really expect it to be,

02:27:42   but I'm just curious to see once it rolls out

02:27:44   how many people really take to it.

02:27:47   - Yeah, and also it's like they've been doing things

02:27:49   with the servers in the backend for a long time,

02:27:51   and ideally it's gonna be like Apple Music

02:27:52   where you go to 4U, it wants to learn about your preferences

02:27:55   and present you with a bunch of interesting stuff

02:27:57   you may not have found yet,

02:27:58   but how well that hits and misses

02:28:00   will determine a great deal of what the value is to you.

02:28:02   - Yeah.

02:28:03   I thought it was so interesting.

02:28:05   I love the way that you include in your links,

02:28:08   in your review, your links to all your previous reviews,

02:28:11   and you have the icons, the icon logos

02:28:15   that Apple has used for each OS release,

02:28:19   and the ones for seven, eight, and nine

02:28:20   are just sort of the same, except that it's just

02:28:23   seven, eight, and nine, you know.

02:28:25   I wonder, I actually didn't even think to notice,

02:28:29   'cause the nines look similar,

02:28:30   but I bet they switched the nine to San Francisco

02:28:32   from Helvetica Noya, but they're all the same.

02:28:34   Whereas the ones for two three four five six are all like all over the place

02:28:39   Yeah, and I reflect whatever the skeuomorphic Tennessee was at the time. Yeah, I think it really

02:28:45   Epitomizes what I mentioned to you

02:28:46   You know a while back on this episode that it it just shows that the design of i07 is really started starting with i07

02:28:53   really matured

02:28:55   Anything else I guess anything I can think of that's really I really want to hit hit your thinking on because you know

02:29:03   just item by item item by item I'm just gonna send people to your just go read Renee's review

02:29:07   The show's gone on long enough. But what about the the deep linking?

02:29:12   That to me so, you know mutual friend Marco Arman

02:29:16   He has an app called overcast and I was just playing around with it and I had an episode

02:29:19   Daring fireball or ATP or something and I said remind me of this and it said okay

02:29:24   I'll remind you of this and put the little overcast icon in and then I went and listened to a bunch of other shows and

02:29:28   and then I went back to reminders and tapped on it,

02:29:30   and it took me back to the episode

02:29:32   I wanted to be reminded of.

02:29:33   So I pinged Marco and I said, "Did you set this up?"

02:29:35   And he said, "No."

02:29:36   And I started looking into it,

02:29:37   and it turns out that because he'd enabled continuity,

02:29:40   continuity does the activity indexing,

02:29:42   that that's exactly what they were using,

02:29:43   and they were using that for the back button,

02:29:45   and they were using that, not in a creepy way,

02:29:46   so basically anytime you leave an app,

02:29:48   it just drops a bookmark,

02:29:49   and then it'll take you right back to there.

02:29:51   Anytime you leave a reminder,

02:29:53   it just drops a bookmark to where you were

02:29:54   and takes you right back to there.

02:29:55   And this is a technology that they created

02:29:57   for continuity.

02:29:59   And there's another continuity technology

02:30:00   that let you move from your website

02:30:02   to an app back and forth.

02:30:03   And they use that essentially for universal links.

02:30:06   So if I get a Twitter article in messages,

02:30:08   I can tap on it.

02:30:09   And instead of going to mobile.twitter.com like an animal,

02:30:12   I go to the Twitter app.

02:30:13   And if that Twitter app's not installed, it doesn't care.

02:30:15   It's a universal link.

02:30:16   It goes back to the mobile Twitter site.

02:30:18   And all of these things just work seamlessly.

02:30:20   I think that's what they're calling it, seamless linking,

02:30:22   based on existing technology.

02:30:24   So, you know, really like if Marco had to do extra work

02:30:27   to support it, it wouldn't bother me that much,

02:30:29   but he's got enough to do already.

02:30:30   And he got all of that for free, essentially.

02:30:32   And to me, that's one of the really awesome aspects

02:30:34   of iOS 9 is how it took all this stuff

02:30:36   and gave us tremendous new features for almost no effort.

02:30:40   - Yeah, and I also think it's at no additional

02:30:43   cognitive load on the user.

02:30:46   If you figure it out and you get the hang of it,

02:30:48   you're moving around faster.

02:30:50   But if you don't, if you just ignore it,

02:30:53   you're not bothered by anything new.

02:30:56   There's nothing new to do.

02:30:58   I almost worry that some of the richness of this

02:31:01   is just going to go unnoticed

02:31:05   because it's so not in your face.

02:31:08   But I would have never even thought that.

02:31:10   That's something that's new to me

02:31:11   that you can just go to Siri.

02:31:14   So you're listening to a show and then you jump to Siri

02:31:17   and say, "Remind me of this later?"

02:31:19   - It's not just a show.

02:31:20   If you send me a text message or I get an email on,

02:31:22   you just say, "Remind me of this,"

02:31:24   and it'll put the icon for that app into reminders

02:31:27   and deep link to the spot in the app that you were in

02:31:30   when you made that request.

02:31:32   - Yeah, I can just imagine right now

02:31:33   how many listeners of this podcast are right now

02:31:37   in overcast listening to us say this,

02:31:40   and they're trying it right now saying,

02:31:41   remind me of this later,

02:31:42   and they're making a reminder of this,

02:31:44   of me and you talking about this right now.

02:31:47   - Yeah, and it's great,

02:31:48   and you can say things like remind me of this,

02:31:50   like remind me to listen to this when I get in the car,

02:31:52   and if you plug into a car kit,

02:31:53   knows that you're plugged into a car. And it's just very clever.

02:31:56   The thing that's really hit me is, because the back buttons that go in the top left,

02:32:02   like when you jump to a web link from something and then Safari has a back to wherever you're

02:32:07   from, like back to mail. It looked clever and I thought this was the, as soon as I saw

02:32:14   it at WWDC I thought that what I'm about to say was the case. But in the summer of using

02:32:18   it is the case where for years, one of my pet peeves

02:32:23   have been the hardware or system level back buttons

02:32:29   on Android and Windows Phone.

02:32:31   And to me, it's the single biggest mistake

02:32:33   that Windows Phone made because Android was already out

02:32:36   and the designers of Windows Phone,

02:32:38   which I think is a really well-designed system,

02:32:41   overall really should have seen the inherent problems

02:32:44   of that button.

02:32:48   And again, like everything, it's trade-offs.

02:32:50   There are times when you just want a go back

02:32:52   to where I was right before this,

02:32:54   even if it's a different app.

02:32:56   You've opened a link, you're in a browser window,

02:33:00   now you wanna go back to where you were.

02:33:02   And that's the counterargument from the Android people

02:33:05   as to why this is supposedly a good design.

02:33:08   But among the many problems that I've had

02:33:11   every time I've ever used an Android phone,

02:33:13   no matter how long I've given with it,

02:33:15   is that for every time that it works

02:33:17   takes you back where you want to go there's all the another time where it

02:33:21   takes you somewhere where you didn't want to go yeah they conflate enter and

02:33:26   intra app navigation exactly so a lot of collisions that's exactly it in tra and

02:33:30   inter app navigation and it's just and it's never labeled it's just a back

02:33:36   button whereas in iOS it's extremely clear it tells you exactly where you'll

02:33:41   be going back and it only it is only up there for when it remains contextually

02:33:48   useful so like if you switch from mail to Safari it's up there and then if you

02:33:52   just stick around in Safari making new tabs and stuff it goes away yeah it's

02:33:56   great and the Safari view controller doesn't have a back button and now it's

02:33:59   you can't just swipe backwards but then there's collisions about swiping back

02:34:03   inside the view controller and through the app so I understand why that's like

02:34:07   that but you can just see so almost you don't have to do the double-click

02:34:10   and then try to hunt for your app,

02:34:12   or go to the home screen and try to hunt back

02:34:13   where you're going to.

02:34:14   You can just go to an app, go right back.

02:34:16   And the iPhone is a single column.

02:34:18   It's not like the iPad where, for example,

02:34:20   you can just tap a bunch of messages in the list view

02:34:23   and see the details change quickly.

02:34:24   You had to tap, go to another message,

02:34:26   tap, go to another message, tap messages, go out.

02:34:29   And they have done all this stuff from the backlink

02:34:31   and the deep linking to the 3D Touch

02:34:33   to make navigating a single column interface

02:34:35   just almost accelerated.

02:34:37   - Yeah, I think, you know, if there's anything

02:34:41   that surprised me in how much it's affected,

02:34:43   just not affected, like it's like revolutionized

02:34:45   my use of the iPhone, or iOS in general,

02:34:49   'cause all of this applies to the iPad as well,

02:34:51   but it's that stuff.

02:34:55   - Yeah, I just, I can't live without it,

02:34:58   and I went back to using an iOS 8.4 device

02:35:00   when Apple Music was coming out,

02:35:01   and I kept trying to hit it and it wasn't there,

02:35:03   and it really was a blockage on my entire device.

02:35:06   - Anything else you wanna say before we truly wrap it up?

02:35:10   I mean, I could talk to you for another three hours

02:35:13   about iOS 9, but we've gotta go.

02:35:16   - The multitasking, I really like the multitasking.

02:35:19   I mean, it's limited on other devices,

02:35:21   but they did give the slide over,

02:35:22   so even if you're on an older iPad, you can use that.

02:35:24   But just the ability to have multiple apps there,

02:35:26   and to start, you don't necessarily need it all the time,

02:35:29   but when you do need it, if you're watching something

02:35:30   and tweets are coming in, or if you're trying to write notes

02:35:33   while you're referring to a webpage,

02:35:34   It's another way where it just enables you to do more

02:35:37   without continuously carouseling out to a different app.

02:35:40   And that, to me, is a tremendous time saver.

02:35:42   - Yeah, and I think the thing you have to get used to is,

02:35:45   and it'll come to you if you don't even think about it,

02:35:47   but what you have to get used to is

02:35:49   if you see two things on screen at once,

02:35:50   the one on the left is primary

02:35:52   and the one on the right is secondary.

02:35:54   Even if you're 50/50, even if, like on the iPad,

02:35:57   you've gone to 50/50, if you Command + Tab,

02:35:59   the Command + Tab is switching the primary,

02:36:03   and the secondary is still secondary.

02:36:05   And you just remember it, just remember that primary's

02:36:07   on the left, secondary's on the right.

02:36:08   And you can switch 'em if you want.

02:36:10   And it all just sort of makes sense as the thing on the left

02:36:16   is exactly what you're used to in iOS since forever,

02:36:20   and the thing on the right is a new thing you're able to do,

02:36:22   which is you're allowed to have a secondary thing

02:36:24   open on the right.

02:36:25   And it's, you know, if anybody out there is concerned

02:36:30   that this is adding, I mean, it's obviously

02:36:32   is adding complexity, but it's not adding to me confusion.

02:36:37   - And you don't have to, I mean, it's one of those things

02:36:42   where like, there's people who just don't know

02:36:44   that notification center or control center are there.

02:36:47   They have a wonderful experience without any of that stuff,

02:36:49   but if you do need more, it's almost like depth of design.

02:36:52   People who are just nominally interested,

02:36:54   they get the first layer and they're happy,

02:36:56   but if you wanna put in the effort and dig deeper,

02:36:58   you have greater levels of functionality.

02:36:59   I think that's a really good way of staging design.

02:37:02   - Yeah, it's amazing how much that they've gotten

02:37:04   out of side swipes over the years.

02:37:06   - Yes.

02:37:07   - You know, from, and I don't think there was anything.

02:37:09   I think in the original iPhone there was nothing

02:37:10   that you got from any of the sides.

02:37:12   'Cause there was no control center.

02:37:13   No control center, no navigation, no notification center.

02:37:18   And now it's, you know, but it's,

02:37:22   if you've discovered either of those things,

02:37:24   the way that you saw it slide in from the side

02:37:27   to open up a second app is very natural.

02:37:30   - Yeah, and it's the same thing with 3D Touch,

02:37:32   they're using it consistently,

02:37:33   and consistency is a user-facing feature,

02:37:35   because if you can't predict and rely on it,

02:37:37   you stop trying, but if it's there,

02:37:38   when you just don't even think about using it,

02:37:40   it just becomes natural,

02:37:41   then it becomes part of your workflow.

02:37:43   - Yeah, that's one of the things I'm really curious about

02:37:45   as iOS 9 rolls out into the real world,

02:37:47   is as I go into a coffee shop

02:37:50   and see what devices people are using,

02:37:52   I'm keen to, and airports is another place

02:37:56   where I always do it, but keen to see

02:37:58   whether this becomes something like when you're going back

02:38:01   to your seat from the restroom on an airplane

02:38:03   and you're just looking at what devices people are using,

02:38:05   how many people are using split screen iPads.

02:38:10   - Yeah, and with keyboards and pencils.

02:38:12   - Yeah, exactly.

02:38:13   Renee, Richie, thank you for your time.

02:38:17   People can get more Renee.

02:38:19   Number one, you can go to iMore.com right now

02:38:22   and find his comprehensive iOS 9 review.

02:38:28   On Twitter, you are Rene Ritchie.

02:38:31   - Yes.

02:38:32   - And your podcasts, what are all your podcasts?

02:38:35   I always forget.

02:38:36   - I do debug with Guy English,

02:38:38   where we talk to developers about developer stuff.

02:38:41   We do vector with Georgia and Guy and Dave Whiskis,

02:38:44   which is more about how humanity affects technology.

02:38:46   And I do iterate with Seth and Mark Edwards about design.

02:38:50   - Well, there we go.

02:38:52   Talented podcasts are prolific.

02:38:53   Slow down a little bit, all right?

02:38:55   - I'm trying, I am.

02:38:57   and I'll talk to you soon.

02:38:59   Thanks for the good work and thanks for your time.