The Talk Show

122: ‘Everyone Needs a Jerk’ With Guest Mark Gurman


00:00:00   Here we are. We're recording on Friday, June 5th. So three days before WWDC keynote and

00:00:07   my guest is Mark Gurman from 9 to 5 Mac fame. Mark, I think it would have been about a year

00:00:15   since you've been on the show?

00:00:17   Yeah, I think last time was a little bit after the previous WWDC.

00:00:22   Well, I couldn't think of anybody better to have for the WWDC "Prayload Show" as I would

00:00:28   call it than you.

00:00:30   Jared: I appreciate it.

00:00:31   Pete: You've had a remarkable run this year, in my opinion.

00:00:34   Well, we'll see how it comes on Monday, but it looks like you have scored an enormous

00:00:40   number of scoops.

00:00:41   Jared Thanks.

00:00:42   I appreciate it.

00:00:43   Pete People who don't want Christmas spoils should probably just stop listening now.

00:00:47   Jared Yeah, I'd agree with that one.

00:00:50   Pete Were you the type of kid who hunted through the house for Christmas presents?

00:00:56   >> Chris I'm Jewish, so…

00:00:59   >> Trent Okay, well Hanukkah birthday.

00:01:01   >> Chris No, right, but we have Passover and the tradition is to hide the matzah

00:01:07   somewhere in the house and I would always be the one to find it when I was growing up, so

00:01:12   yeah, pretty much.

00:01:13   >> Trent Yeah, but are you supposed to hide, you're supposed to find that.

00:01:16   >> Chris Right.

00:01:17   >> Trent What about like birthday presents?

00:01:19   >> Chris Oh, eh, yeah, maybe I'd go digging sometimes for those. I don't really remember,

00:01:24   But I get your point. I remember twice doing it and I

00:01:29   The thing is that I found it the same place both times one time I found

00:01:33   a

00:01:35   brand new dirt bike and uh

00:01:37   Bicycle in the basement. There's this like

00:01:40   like in the back of my parents basement, there's like a little like

00:01:44   Extra room behind the door and I wasn't even looking for presents

00:01:48   Uh, I just I don't know what I was just you know bored and like looking around the basement and I went in there

00:01:53   And there was this awesome brand new shiny chrome

00:01:57   dirt bike with red trim and red tires and

00:02:00   I was so naive and this was I don't know like a couple of weeks before my birthday and I'm so naive

00:02:07   I didn't think holy shit. They got me a dirt bike for for my birthday. I thought why is there a dirt bike in my

00:02:14   How old are you at the time I was probably

00:02:20   I'm gonna guess around like 10 or 11. Oh, wow

00:02:23   Yeah, and then and then I knew though that's the room to look in and then that for that Christmas

00:02:28   I went in there and looked around and I saw that I was getting the Millennium Falcon the big-ass Kenner Millennium Falcon toy

00:02:34   and

00:02:37   Then on this is true. I honestly thought you know what? I'm gonna stop looking for Christmas presents because now I feel terrible

00:02:43   Yeah, I know what you mean

00:02:47   It's a little different with the Apple stuff

00:02:50   I mean, there's a lot of people who, you know, when all these stories are coming through,

00:02:54   they're like, "Why are you publishing this?

00:02:56   This is a lot of information.

00:02:58   You're ruining the keynote."

00:02:59   I don't look at it that way at all.

00:03:02   There's movie spoilers, you know, people hunting for their birthday gifts.

00:03:05   You don't have to read the stuff.

00:03:07   But just doing my job as a reporter.

00:03:09   I think what people are a little angry about is that you're so accurate.

00:03:13   Yeah, yeah, maybe a little bit.

00:03:15   We'll see.

00:03:16   I have said, I was on Josh Topolski's New Tomorrow podcast

00:03:21   earlier this week and then last week

00:03:24   with Rene Ritchie here on my show.

00:03:27   But both times you came up just in the,

00:03:30   I don't see how you can't come up

00:03:32   if you're gonna start saying,

00:03:33   what do you expect for WWDC?

00:03:35   But I mean this sincerely.

00:03:38   I've been reading Apple rumor websites

00:03:42   ever since Apple rumor websites started.

00:03:45   And I'm not even saying 9to5back is more than a rumor website, but the type of sites that

00:03:50   publish ostensibly, hopefully informed, well-sourced information about upcoming Apple stuff that

00:03:59   is not intended to be public information.

00:04:03   I've been following it since they existed, so it's at least what, like 20 years, the

00:04:07   mid-90s when the web first came up.

00:04:11   And I remember in the early days, nobody was accurate.

00:04:15   site that existed at that time that was like focused on rumors I think there was like

00:04:19   mac os rumors I always used to get it confused with with uh now the long-standing website mac

00:04:27   rumors right but there was like mac os rumors and there were a couple more and their track records

00:04:33   were atrocious to say and it's you know it's I didn't have the name claim chowder yet from

00:04:40   from my good friends at Panic, Cable Sasser and Stephen Frank.

00:04:45   But I've always been obsessed with the notion behind it, which is, why does nobody keep track

00:04:50   of this crap and just remember that everybody's all excited about this site that is reporting

00:04:58   something something about, at the time, like Mac OS 8.1 or something like that, when these were

00:05:04   the same clowns who a year ago said this, that, and the other thing, none of which panned out.

00:05:08   Right. Right. And in that time there have been others who've had better records. I've dabbled

00:05:14   my toes in it in my own Koi way, but in my opinion nobody has had a run like you've had in the last

00:05:20   two years with in terms of accuracy. Yeah, I appreciate that. So something I wanted to ask

00:05:25   you about your run last year before the Apple watch came out you had some Koi line about oh

00:05:32   something next month in September when everyone was expecting the watch to come out in October.

00:05:37   of last fall. Did you make a mistake there and you happen to get it right or

00:05:41   was that like a true like coy I know it's coming out in September type of

00:05:46   thing? That's an excellent question mark. We want the truth here. I didn't know and

00:05:59   you know what here's the thing here's the reason that I don't even I do less

00:06:04   and less of that now than ever before is I found that it makes me unhappy in life unsettled

00:06:13   because these things can change but at the time that I wrote that I happen to know that

00:06:20   the watch was planned for September but not it was probably sometime in August when I

00:06:26   wrote that and I do remember that it was sort of a you know got picked up by tech meme and

00:06:31   all this stuff. I did know that that was the plan and I, you know, but it could change, you know,

00:06:42   definitely I could have been wrong which is why I didn't want to put it in more concrete terms.

00:06:46   What I knew was I knew that they had the bigger venue booked for September and I just, you know,

00:06:55   not first day, it was very, very distant, but just, you know, I put it all together and it was very

00:07:01   clear that it was September not October. I think Pat Tkowski had it as October.

00:07:09   Well yeah, but when he said October that was like six months before the fall and

00:07:15   right between two months worse like you said things can change so right well he

00:07:20   knows what he's talking about for sure oh absolutely yeah he's you know rock solid

00:07:27   So where do we start? I mean, there's actually a lot of stuff that has come out today. I mean,

00:07:32   this is always the case before the keynotes. So there's two of the things that are today

00:07:39   that I saw. I don't know if you saw these. So Business Week or Bloomberg Business,

00:07:44   I don't know what they're calling it this week. Lucas Shaw and Tim Higgins have a report that

00:07:51   Apple, as of today, Friday, June 5th, is still pushing to complete the music deals before

00:07:58   Monday. That they don't have all of the music labels on board for the... I don't even see

00:08:05   how it's... It's not even a secret anymore that they're going to come out with an updated

00:08:10   streaming service.

00:08:11   Right. Yeah. They've always been a sort of eleventh hour with those details. I know you

00:08:17   love that word even with like the book deals back in the first iPad and the

00:08:21   newsstand stuff over the last few years so I think this is typical Apple every

00:08:26   year whenever they do a big media launch we see stories that say hey you know

00:08:29   Apple still working on those deals faxing over some paperwork so this is

00:08:34   not terribly surprising meanwhile edi-q is courtside at the Warriors game yeah

00:08:40   so who are you rooting for oh I you know what I used to be I'm a I used to be a

00:08:44   huge basketball fan and I kind of fell out with the NBA and I've kind of been getting

00:08:51   back into it, especially this year. I felt like the playoffs this year have been terribly

00:08:55   exciting.

00:08:56   Oh yeah, absolutely.

00:08:57   So I'm going with the Warriors. I like the way they play. But I have to say I do like

00:09:02   the comeback story with James going back to Cleveland and making them an instant contender.

00:09:09   I think it's two good teams and I like the way both teams play.

00:09:14   I happen to really, really like the offense that the Warriors play though.

00:09:18   I really like that penetrate and dish back out style of play.

00:09:23   **Beserat Debebe:** Right.

00:09:24   I mean, they're both fantastic teams.

00:09:26   I agree with you on the comeback story with LeBron basically carrying the team through

00:09:30   the East himself, but I'm honestly not a fan of the whole Stephen Curry playing tops and

00:09:35   play on the Warriors.

00:09:36   too flashy when he takes that 25 foot three pointer and then turns around before it's

00:09:41   going in the basket. Like that's, it's pretty pompous and I'd say so.

00:09:46   I don't know. I like it. There's something about that that it appeals to me. I feel like if I had

00:09:51   actually been a good player, the player that I could have, you know, would have dreamed of

00:09:54   being would have been like Curry. Yeah. You could have been in the NBA instead of writing

00:09:59   during fireball. Yeah. Sort of a Reggie Miller style, wouldn't you say? You know?

00:10:03   Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A bit Reggie Miller.

00:10:05   Similar build, you know, dead shooter from, you know, incredible distance.

00:10:12   Jared: Anywhere.

00:10:13   Pete: Yeah.

00:10:13   Jared; That's crazy.

00:10:14   Pete; But anyway, there's a great picture that's been circulating in the AP today of

00:10:19   Eddie Q's sort of cheering LeBron on from court side.

00:10:26   Jared; Yeah, this is why the deals aren't done yet. Picture proof.

00:10:29   [laughter]

00:10:31   What a year Eddy Cue has had as a basketball fan. He's a Duke fan and a Warriors season

00:10:35   ticket holder, so his college team already won the college championship, and his pro team is

00:10:44   one game up in the finals.

00:10:45   Jared: Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll see how that works out over the next couple weeks. I still think

00:10:50   LeBron has a comeback in him.

00:10:52   Pete; I'll tell you, that's the thing about the NBA Finals is it's where, you know, the team with

00:10:56   the greatest with it's you know, it sounds stupid but it's the one sport where I think it's true

00:11:02   where when it comes to the finals the team that if there's two teams with like a hall of fame

00:11:08   type player and I wouldn't even say that curry is a hall of fame type player it's too early but

00:11:12   right you know if he continues where he is he will be um but with the greatest of the greater

00:11:18   of the two all-star stars usually wins regardless of the other peripheral players on the team

00:11:25   Yeah, I'd agree with that.

00:11:26   Right? I mean like, and you know, the Jordan teams were the perfect example. I mean Pippen was great

00:11:31   and what was, what's his name? The crazy fella Dennis Rodman. Right. Rodman was an incredible

00:11:38   force to be reckoned with. But the truth is, you know, Jordan, when it came down to it could carry

00:11:45   the team on his back. Yeah, same thing with Kobe a few years. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like the

00:11:52   Kobe teams without Shaq. Right. I love Kobe. Huge Kobe fan. No, but he had that ability.

00:11:58   There's that's the weird thing. And you know, maybe the quarterback in football is the closest

00:12:03   that you can get to that. But the idea of keep it within a handful of points to three minutes to

00:12:11   play and then let let him take over whoever you know that may be. Yeah, and it's game over. Right.

00:12:17   Yeah, so I don't know do you think Eddie's gonna go to the Sunday night game? I

00:12:22   Can't believe that I good question. I'm gonna watch out for that. That's the thing to watch the game

00:12:28   Yeah, you know my understanding and Apple, you know, one of the things that they've always been pretty

00:12:33   secretive about if not totally secret about is their

00:12:36   The process that they go through to rehearse keynotes, you know, they just don't talk about it

00:12:43   You know, they if it goes through the weekend though, they're there right now. They'll be there this weekend

00:12:47   - Definitely goes through the weekend.

00:12:49   But I've heard stories that there have been times

00:12:53   where it goes almost surprisingly late Sunday night,

00:12:57   given that, you know,

00:12:59   you know, that it's, they're gonna be on stage

00:13:03   and they wanna look fresh, you know,

00:13:04   10 o'clock Monday morning.

00:13:06   - Right, right.

00:13:07   I don't know, we'll see if Eddie shows up

00:13:10   in his Warriors jersey or not.

00:13:12   You know.

00:13:13   - Well, and I expect that Eddie would have

00:13:16   major role in it because the way that apple does keynotes is whoever is i don't know if it's quite

00:13:23   the it you know that internal lingo of dri but whoever the executive is who's in charge of

00:13:28   whatever it is that's being keynoted is the one who presents it and if you know absolutely it

00:13:35   seems like there might be a big chunk of the keynote that's going to be in eddie q's uh

00:13:40   domain like what with eddy kidder's apple music and uh well it's about it yeah well i guess if

00:13:48   if it's true that apple tv isn't uh making the cut yeah i think that those i mean there's three

00:13:55   reports on it from three reputable sites and just in the days before the keynote so i think that

00:14:01   that's probably right that they they cut it out i didn't see three i saw brian x chan at the new

00:14:05   New York Times said no new Apple TV hardware what else did you see Pachkowski

00:14:12   at BuzzFeed overrated that and then recode as well all the matter of minutes

00:14:16   huh I did not see that so that that's really telling them I'm surprised you

00:14:22   didn't have any take on Chen's report saying that they cut it out in mid-may

00:14:29   uh what do you think of that i that sounds it's unusual i think right but it sounds about right

00:14:38   given that what i had heard last i'd heard is it was set for wwdc but i haven't heard anything

00:14:44   likewise likewise i even spoke to someone very reliable after those reports came out who said

00:14:50   that the sdk's and all that they're preparing for monday still has or as of that day still had

00:14:57   all the TV kit stuff intertwined in there.

00:15:01   So when developers pull the thing apart, I wouldn't be surprised to see some references

00:15:05   to that on Monday afternoon or whenever people get their hands on it.

00:15:08   Hmm.

00:15:09   Explain that to me though.

00:15:10   What do you mean by that?

00:15:11   So besides the Apple TV hardware, they're going to have, or they were planning an Apple

00:15:16   TV SDK so developers could write, you know, apps for it that they control from an iPhone

00:15:21   or that new controller.

00:15:24   But now that they're pushing back the hardware,

00:15:27   it seems likely that they're probably gonna push back

00:15:29   the SDK as well.

00:15:31   So what I heard was, in terms of this being

00:15:32   like a late decision, that the SDK still has the tools

00:15:37   for developing the Apple TV apps in it.

00:15:40   The SDK for iOS 9, that they're gonna be releasing.

00:15:42   - Oh, I see what you mean, iOS 9, I gotcha, gotcha.

00:15:45   - Right, so now I assume, or it could be assumed

00:15:48   that they're scrambling to remove that functionality

00:15:51   from the build or releasing an older build without it.

00:15:54   Or just they just say screw it and let everybody rip it apart Monday afternoon and so be it.

00:16:01   Yeah we'll see.

00:16:02   Because they know I mean there's no you know when everyone's something is left behind in

00:16:07   an SDK and it seems pretty clear it's a mistake something like this would not be a mistake

00:16:12   something like this would be what are we going to do.

00:16:15   Right back in the day when I first got my start writing they would leave stuff back

00:16:19   all the time. I remember with the iPad 2, every spec, wallpapers, everything was right

00:16:25   and left in the SDK, but they've gotten better over the years. Like the last big leak I remember

00:16:30   was the fingerprint sensor in the iOS 8 SDK, but even that was pretty hidden.

00:16:36   Yeah, and even every once in a while it's something like icons or something like that.

00:16:40   Right, right.

00:16:41   shows something. So why I'm I didn't read patch cow I don't know how I missed it

00:16:49   but what's the what did patch koski say about why there's no Apple TV hardware I

00:16:57   don't remember exactly what he said but something in the lines of it not being

00:17:02   ready for prime time or something like that yeah I think that there were some

00:17:06   people who were speculating that it was because the TV service, you know, with this idea that

00:17:12   they're going to have like, you pay $20 a month, or I don't know, I made the number

00:17:17   up, but you pay X dollars a month to Apple, and then you get a package of 20 or 30 cable

00:17:24   channels content.

00:17:25   Yeah, I don't think that's the case at all. I think the plan along was to announce the

00:17:30   hardware apps SDK in June, release it soon after the keynote, and then introduce the

00:17:36   TV service and say, "Hey, you're going to get the hardware now," and then the service

00:17:40   will come with a software update in the fall.

00:17:43   And I think that was always the plan.

00:17:44   And in the meantime, you can still get all of the iTunes content you already can.

00:17:49   You can buy episodes, buy the episode, you can rent and buy movies.

00:17:54   All the content you already know and love on Apple TV is already there.

00:17:57   Exactly.

00:17:58   marketing scheme, that would be amazing for them, totally Apple, to have it come out and

00:18:03   roll out and then get all the exposure once again when the new service is ready in the

00:18:07   fall.

00:18:08   So I don't think the two are connected in terms of the WWDC announcement being pushed

00:18:13   back.

00:18:14   Yeah.

00:18:15   I suspect the same thing.

00:18:18   I have to say, and I'm not being coy here, I really do know nothing.

00:18:22   I'm as surprised by this as anybody because I had heard just little things.

00:18:27   months I had heard that Apple TV hardware was on pace for WWDC along with the SDK and etc.

00:18:33   I think though just my spidey sense about the company is that if they're not announcing it

00:18:41   on Monday that means it's not ready. Right, right. I agree because I think that they probably wanted

00:18:47   to ship it just a few weeks or a few months after the WWDC keynote and they're probably not able to

00:18:53   to hit that anymore, so they wanna just push back

00:18:55   the announcement, and maybe they feel like

00:18:57   if they wait 'til the fall to announce it,

00:18:59   they can release the hardware like a week and a half later

00:19:01   they could do with iPhones,

00:19:02   and have plenty of quantity ready to go.

00:19:04   - Yeah, yeah, and it might be the sort of thing where,

00:19:08   you know, just loosely speaking, I have a sense that,

00:19:13   I mean, iPhone is still a huge deal for the company,

00:19:17   it's the biggest deal financially,

00:19:19   but introducing new iPhones is harder and harder

00:19:23   to make a big deal out of because it's a well-known product.

00:19:27   And so just like my example, like I've said about last year,

00:19:30   so again, the two most popular iPhones

00:19:33   that I've ever introduced, you know, best selling,

00:19:36   have propelled the company to new heights.

00:19:39   But there wasn't that much to say about them.

00:19:42   They were self-explanatory.

00:19:43   It's the iPhone you know and love,

00:19:45   except now it's thinner, and it's bigger, or really bigger,

00:19:50   and it has an uncomfortable camera nubbin.

00:19:53   - Yeah, that they hid in the marketing shop.

00:19:56   - Right, so that's why I think that they wanted

00:20:01   to pair it with the watch introduction

00:20:05   and the fact that they could throw in Apple Pay

00:20:08   in between them as an introduction is icing on the cake.

00:20:11   'Cause then that way they can hold their biggest event

00:20:13   of the year or at least the biggest standalone event

00:20:15   if you don't count WWDC.

00:20:17   And have big things to announce

00:20:20   other than just the iPhone,

00:20:21   because it's really, really hard to,

00:20:23   I think it was, you know, however long Schiller

00:20:25   was up there talking about the iPhones,

00:20:27   I think it really would have been hard

00:20:29   for him to go much longer,

00:20:30   just because there's not that much more to say.

00:20:33   - Right, I agree there.

00:20:34   So this fall, probably, like you said,

00:20:36   they'll probably double up on the iPhone and TV

00:20:39   in September, and maybe have a big iPad event in October

00:20:43   with the new Air Mini and the bigger one,

00:20:45   the Pro, if that's ready.

00:20:46   - Yeah, and whatever other, you know,

00:20:48   but like a smaller event maybe on campus again.

00:20:51   But I'd expect big event September.

00:20:53   We are skipping WWDC and talking about September,

00:20:55   but that's what I would think.

00:20:58   But and I think, you know, if they're thinking,

00:20:59   hey, the software's not ready, why release it now?

00:21:02   The only reason to do it would be so that they could have,

00:21:06   whatever they're gonna call it, TV kit, whatever,

00:21:08   you know, it's called TV kit sessions at WWDC.

00:21:12   But if they introduce a new developer API

00:21:15   outside WWDC in the fall, so be it.

00:21:19   You know?

00:21:20   - Right, yeah.

00:21:21   - I mean, they've done that before.

00:21:22   I mean, they did that with the original iPad, right?

00:21:25   They introduced the iPad and said,

00:21:27   "You've got four weeks to update your apps to run on it.

00:21:30   "Go."

00:21:31   - Right, and I wouldn't be surprised

00:21:32   if some big major app partners maybe get the SDK

00:21:35   ceded to them in maybe July, August,

00:21:38   late summer timeframe ahead of time.

00:21:39   - All right, so I do think,

00:21:41   I think the writing's on the wall, the TV is out.

00:21:45   - Right, right.

00:21:46   - Let me take a break and thank the first sponsor

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00:24:20   All right, what else we got next week?

00:24:25   Obvious stuff.

00:24:26   Now here's the stuff that's no surprise.

00:24:27   in broad strokes new version of iOS gonna be called iOS 9 and new version of

00:24:33   OS 10 10.11 right so what's the OS 10 name you got last year you know what's

00:24:39   your take this huh you know what so I mean in the spirit of openness I will

00:24:45   tell you Yosemite was a complete guess on my part honest to God nobody's nobody

00:24:51   from Apple nobody ever said I you know hey it's called Yosemite it did make a

00:24:56   lot of sense. Well my thought was Mavericks gave away that they're the type

00:25:02   of place they're looking for like a nature you know big scenic type thing I

00:25:07   knew that it was going to be the version that has the big UI overhaul which at

00:25:14   least you know in marketing terms means it's a big OS update sure because it

00:25:19   looks new and so Yosemite to me was the it's the big obvious one sort of like

00:25:25   with the cat names the way that like lion was a big one that they were waiting for tiger was you

00:25:30   know tiger and lion were the two big ones yep so I just guessed Yosemite I have no idea this year

00:25:37   because I really I don't I'm not even that familiar with with California's you know natural park

00:25:42   system or or beaches so I know guests this year okay hmm you have a guess sir maybe Big Sur or

00:25:53   or see LCAP, that's like a part of Yosemite, right?

00:25:56   I'm not too caught up in the geography either.

00:25:58   - Yeah, I think it is.

00:26:00   - Right, and so this update from what I'm hearing

00:26:05   is not gonna be a huge update functionality wise

00:26:08   or user interface wise.

00:26:10   So maybe going with OS 10 LCAP kind of like build off

00:26:14   that Yosemite name could make sense.

00:26:16   - Ooh, that's a good guess.

00:26:18   I've heard the same thing and it's not just,

00:26:20   I know you've reported this, but I've heard

00:26:22   And especially, and we should definitely talk,

00:26:25   we can tie this in together, but.

00:26:27   - Sure.

00:26:28   - I think you've, I don't wanna put words in your mouth,

00:26:31   but I think you've reported that in both cases,

00:26:34   with both OSs, there's more of a emphasis on

00:26:38   cleaning up the edge cases and the details

00:26:43   and bug fixes and refinements, you know.

00:26:46   Not quite as drastic maybe as Snow Leopard was,

00:26:49   but that sort of OS update.

00:26:51   But I think it's def, from what I've heard,

00:26:53   that's more the case with OS X than with iOS.

00:26:58   - Yep, I heard the exact same thing.

00:27:00   So on iOS, it's kind of like meeting in the middle maybe

00:27:04   with a snow leopard and like a standard annual upgrade.

00:27:07   So they're really focusing on making sure it works well

00:27:11   through the QA processes and performance and efficiency wise

00:27:15   but also adding new features.

00:27:17   But on OS X, the only user facing new feature

00:27:20   I've heard about is control center hmm interesting I don't I actually don't know of anything

00:27:27   yeah I don't know of anything and I only know about control center because of you and there's

00:27:33   like a lot of little things that they'll have on OS 10 like we talked about San Francisco

00:27:38   for the font have you heard that as well by the way I have okay and I've spoken to people

00:27:45   who've seen it on iOS 9 I don't know of anybody who's seen it on OS 10 yeah I mean

00:27:50   I'm sure you can speak to this too, but it's not the exact same San Francisco as on the

00:27:55   Apple Watch.

00:27:56   It's kind of a little bit more curved.

00:27:58   Maybe like the activity app that is on the iPhone right now?

00:28:02   Well, I don't know the details of exactly what changes they made, but I am absolutely

00:28:07   positively convinced that it's not the same digitized version that's on the watch.

00:28:14   Because if you ran that hack that came out last year that let you...

00:28:20   I don't think anybody, I don't know, I don't have a jailbroken device, so I couldn't try

00:28:23   it on iOS 9.

00:28:24   But I know on OS 10, there was a thing on GitHub, you download the version of the font

00:28:28   from Apple with a developer account, you run a little script, and it makes a version of

00:28:33   the font that if you put it in system library fonts, and when you reboot your Mac, it'll

00:28:38   use that instead of the systems version of Helvetica, Noia.

00:28:43   And it didn't look bad, but it didn't look right.

00:28:47   kind of shift it off a little bit it screwed with the menu bar so yeah just

00:28:52   just in terms of being like a person who's super finicky and about

00:28:58   typography it just didn't have the right feel to it like it's just a feel of it

00:29:04   thing not a think of it thing not there's no real way to put it in words

00:29:07   and I think the reason why is that the version of San Francisco that Apple

00:29:11   crafted for the watch is shockingly designed to look best at the tiny little

00:29:19   sizes that you see it on the watch. Surprising right? Right which are way

00:29:24   smaller than then that's what the 16 point font that you see in the menu bar

00:29:29   on the Mac so that you know it's just like a lot of modern-day digital fonts

00:29:35   it's you know different optical sizes have different kerning and different

00:29:39   details to certain other glyphs.

00:29:41   - Right, and I think you touched upon this

00:29:42   in an earlier podcast.

00:29:44   I think maybe it was with Dan Frum or something.

00:29:46   They kind of, you said, I think it was you,

00:29:48   I don't wanna put words in your mouth,

00:29:49   that they're maybe partially doing this

00:29:51   'cause they wanna own the whole experience,

00:29:53   not have to license a font from other providers.

00:29:56   - Well, they're still gonna have that font

00:29:58   so they still have to license it.

00:29:59   There's no way they're getting rid of Helvetica.

00:30:02   But this way they have a look that can't be copied.

00:30:06   - Okay, right, yeah, that's what you said.

00:30:06   - You know what I mean?

00:30:07   So like HTC has used Helvetica Neue for years

00:30:11   in like their custom skin for Android.

00:30:15   And honestly it makes their lock screen look a lot better

00:30:21   than the other Android devices.

00:30:23   - Yeah, absolutely, it's a good thought.

00:30:25   But this will put like a similarity

00:30:27   across Apple's platforms.

00:30:29   It's good marketing wise.

00:30:31   They did the whole revamp of the OS in 13 for iOS 7

00:30:35   and last year for the Mac.

00:30:37   I think changing up the font a little bit keeps everything fresh.

00:30:40   Yeah, and I think that, you know, there's been other people have written about it in

00:30:46   detail, but Helvetica is a it's almost hard to talk about it because it's so it's a ubiquitous

00:30:53   font but it's not that perfectly suited as a UI font and a user interface font has to

00:31:02   meaning the font for things like the labels on buttons, the menus,

00:31:06   you know, the Chrome of the OS as opposed to the content within it.

00:31:11   It's just not that great for it.

00:31:13   It's not really a great font for that.

00:31:16   It's not bad, and it looks better on retina screens than Lucida Grande did.

00:31:22   Absolutely.

00:31:23   But San Francisco does.

00:31:25   It's sort of like being a little bit more industrial and a little bit more sturdy

00:31:29   where it's--

00:31:30   you wouldn't want to read long passages.

00:31:32   I'm suspecting, for example, like when you open mail,

00:31:37   you're still gonna see the contents of your messages

00:31:39   in Helvetica Neue.

00:31:40   It's the labels and the Chrome of the OS

00:31:43   that'll be San Francisco.

00:31:44   I could be wrong.

00:31:45   Maybe they'll-- - Oh, really?

00:31:46   - Maybe they'll go to San Francisco for content as well.

00:31:49   Although I'd be really surprised

00:31:50   if they did that on the Mac.

00:31:52   - It's gonna be interesting to see

00:31:53   if third-party developers come out with lots of updates

00:31:56   to support San Francisco now,

00:31:58   like there were all sorts of retina display

00:32:00   and touch ID API updates over the years whenever they…

00:32:03   Well, you should… it should just happen automatically because what they should be

00:32:07   doing in the user interface is not specifying alvetic anoia but specifying system font.

00:32:12   Right.

00:32:13   Right.

00:32:14   But not all developers do that.

00:32:15   Right.

00:32:16   Especially the custom graphics ones.

00:32:17   No, but I've heard…

00:32:19   I've heard the same thing.

00:32:20   Yeah.

00:32:21   Yeah.

00:32:22   So tell me what you know about Control Center for OS X.

00:32:25   So before Yosemite came out, they were like the internal builds for Apple employees.

00:32:30   If you swiped on the left side of your trackpad, like the exact opposite for how you open a

00:32:34   notification center, Control Center would come out and it would actually move some of

00:32:38   the menu bar to the side.

00:32:40   So the About This Mac, Wi-Fi controls, volume controls, I think some battery indicator things

00:32:48   to access system preferences more quickly, brightness, music controls, similar to how

00:32:54   it is on iOS, Bluetooth.

00:32:58   Maybe they'll replicate the menu bar but not remove the menu bar so you can access it on

00:33:02   either side or maybe they'll just won't ship it with control center altogether but it's

00:33:07   basically what you think it would be.

00:33:09   Yeah, I think that part of it is where whenever Apple comes up with something new it always

00:33:15   helps me to think just take a big step back and just think well why and I one thing I

00:33:21   could think of when I read that is all these tiny little icons in the menu bar have always been to

00:33:29   me a bit of a hack user interface wise like the thing that makes sense in the menu bar are just

00:33:35   the menus file edit view history bookmarks you can see I'm in safari right those little status things

00:33:44   have never really felt at home up there and I know why they're there it's because you want them to be

00:33:51   accessible quickly. Like here, quick, how do I turn my sound down? Okay, I'll go up

00:33:57   there to this speaker thing and drag a menu down. But it's never really felt right to

00:34:02   me, I don't know how to say it, semantically, grammatically, in terms of the user interface.

00:34:07   And there was a time, I don't know if you remember this, there was a time in the early

00:34:11   days of OS X where there were like, I don't remember the names, but there were two ways

00:34:15   to write those menu things. And there was one that was using a private API and Apple

00:34:19   used it and another using the public API and you know developers but they wanted to do

00:34:29   the extra stuff the private API could do so they use that one and you know all sorts of

00:34:33   ugliness ensued.

00:34:36   Do you think they'll offer a way for developers to tap into control center on the Mac?

00:34:40   Yeah, I do I think if they come out with it they definitely would in the same way that

00:34:45   You know have with like today widgets, right?

00:34:48   control

00:34:51   Well, especially on the Mac

00:34:52   I think they're way more likely to give developers access to new things like that on the Mac than they are on iOS

00:34:58   Right because iOS control center is not it's not really touchable

00:35:02   No

00:35:03   But I think that they would and I think the reason that they would is I think going all the way back to Mac OS

00:35:09   10.0 way back when you know when you were like two years old

00:35:14   - Hold on. (laughs)

00:35:16   - Thanks.

00:35:16   - I don't think Apple has ever liked the idea

00:35:20   of third parties putting stuff up in the menu bar,

00:35:23   the little icon menus.

00:35:24   Just is, you know, just like it's just a little bit gross.

00:35:28   - And it kind of looks terrible too,

00:35:29   just as an eyesore when they were doing

00:35:31   the retina transition,

00:35:32   some of those icons weren't retina yet.

00:35:34   So you'd have like a retina Apple one

00:35:35   and then a third party that's all pixelated.

00:35:38   - Right.

00:35:38   - And kind of looks gross.

00:35:39   - And what's the, what is the highest profile piece

00:35:42   hardware that Apple has released so far this year.

00:35:46   Of course the Mark Gurman Macbook.

00:35:48   The Mark Gurman Macbook.

00:35:51   Guess what?

00:35:52   The Mark Gurman Macbook has a very small screen.

00:35:57   And those icons run up against the side of the app.

00:36:03   It's very, very easy to have so many icons up there that an app with a lot of menus like

00:36:08   Xcode or something like that that they run into each other.

00:36:10   That's a good point.

00:36:11   that yeah yeah I wonder I move it on the iPad too because on the iPad you swipe

00:36:17   up for it what if they move it to the side on that as well hmm I don't think

00:36:22   so I know I don't think so because I think the iPad follows the iPhone right

00:36:29   a phone you know it really needs to come up from the bottom not from the side

00:36:33   sure sure like I feel like with the iPad if the iPad lived in its own universe it

00:36:38   wouldn't make much difference whether it was a thing from the side or a thing

00:36:41   from the bottom, but because it's like,

00:36:43   it's really just a big iPhone,

00:36:45   it's gotta come up from the bottom.

00:36:47   - Yeah.

00:36:48   - I think the only things that Apple likes up there

00:36:50   is the status stuff, the time, the battery,

00:36:55   and the spotlight and what do you call it?

00:37:00   What's the--

00:37:02   - Notification center?

00:37:03   - Yeah, notifications.

00:37:04   - The spotlight icon being there is interesting

00:37:06   because when they came out with spotlight with Tiger

00:37:10   up through whatever was before Yosemite, a Mavericks,

00:37:14   you would have a little pop out in the top right corner,

00:37:16   but now you're clicking this magnifying glass

00:37:19   in the top right corner,

00:37:20   but the text field pops up in the middle of the screen.

00:37:23   So that doesn't make much sense.

00:37:25   - Yeah, you're actually right now that I think about it.

00:37:27   - So maybe they'll get rid of that entirely

00:37:29   and just tell people to do the command space bar.

00:37:32   - Right, and if you're the sort of person

00:37:34   who doesn't think about using a command line thing,

00:37:37   then Spotlight's not for you anyway.

00:37:39   - Exactly.

00:37:40   - Or maybe it moves to the dock?

00:37:41   - Yeah, you know, they have the icon for Spotlight

00:37:45   in the file system anyways, they always have, so.

00:37:48   - Right.

00:37:48   - Maybe, or a quick mouse at the corner,

00:37:51   hot shortcut or something.

00:37:53   - Yeah, I don't know, that's a good point.

00:37:55   Yeah, I haven't heard anything else about OS X.

00:38:00   I think that there probably has gotta be a few things.

00:38:05   You know, I do expect, I just think that there's gotta be

00:38:08   few things but I do think that it's a lot more like a snow leopard style release.

00:38:13   Yeah absolutely I mean I heard there's a big focus on security with this new

00:38:17   feature called rootless which sort of blocks the file system from being as

00:38:22   accessible as it is now. The finder won't go away people will still be able to get

00:38:27   into the file system but like the root directories and such will be will be

00:38:31   hidden. Yeah that's a good it's an interesting feature and that's in to my

00:38:36   knowledge it's entirely a German scoop and you know everything I've ever seen

00:38:41   about it ultimately it's somewhere at the bottom of the article says as first

00:38:47   reported by Mark German and under five mark yeah it might be more of an iOS

00:38:50   thing because it was designed initially to sort of break jail breaks in the

00:38:55   future from people people being able to tap deep into the system but there's

00:38:59   some ways to apply it to the Mac as well hmm yeah I can see it and I think it

00:39:04   It ties into, obviously you first think of it

00:39:09   as a security feature, but I think Apple more and more

00:39:14   sees security and privacy as being intertwined.

00:39:18   And it's the sort of doubling down on features like this

00:39:23   has as much to do with their stance on privacy

00:39:29   as it does on any sort of just the general principle

00:39:32   that you want your OS to be secure.

00:39:34   - Right, and it also goes back to the big picture stuff

00:39:37   of a bigger quality stability focus,

00:39:39   not letting people tap into the core parts of the system

00:39:43   will likely keep the OS stabler overall.

00:39:46   - Yeah.

00:39:47   - The privacy thing is a good point

00:39:49   because there's been a lot of talk about a Siri API.

00:39:53   And I know, and I'm sure you heard this as well,

00:39:56   that at some point they were considering a full-fledged way

00:39:59   for developers to tap into Siri.

00:40:01   - Yes.

00:40:01   but from what I understand, they keep holding back on that

00:40:05   because they're concerned about the privacy implications.

00:40:07   So let's say you give a command to Siri

00:40:10   and you're trying to tap into Yelp,

00:40:12   but what if Siri misinterprets what you said

00:40:15   and sends your data to another app, a Google app,

00:40:19   or a Shazam or something like that?

00:40:22   So they're concerned that Siri might send data

00:40:24   the wrong place because it misinterprets what you said.

00:40:27   - Yeah, I can see that.

00:40:29   - That's an interesting thing.

00:40:30   Or I just, off the top of my head,

00:40:33   that if they opened it up to third parties,

00:40:35   even if they made it, and I suspect that they would,

00:40:43   I suspect that a Mac,

00:40:45   well, on iOS, it would definitely,

00:40:50   everything goes through the App Store.

00:40:53   But even if they did it on a Mac,

00:40:54   which doesn't really have proper Siri yet anyway,

00:40:57   But if they did, I would see them as doing it

00:41:00   only for Mac App Store apps,

00:41:02   because I think they would want to approve the apps

00:41:05   because they wouldn't want it used in any context

00:41:08   where what you might be saying to Siri

00:41:10   is stuff that Apple does not want going to their servers,

00:41:13   for whatever reason.

00:41:14   I'm not, you know--

00:41:15   - No, that makes a lot of sense, yeah.

00:41:17   - Read into that what you will,

00:41:18   but I don't think that they want you saying,

00:41:21   they don't want you, even some,

00:41:22   I'm not even, there's porno or pirating movies,

00:41:27   Or something like that any sorts of stuff that they might not want to be involved with but even something like that

00:41:31   That on the surface is on the up and up like a medical records app. They're not gonna want you

00:41:36   But on the other hand, I guess they still allow it for dictation and that stuff still round trips to the server

00:41:42   So, I don't know right? I don't know. All I know is that

00:41:45   the the privacy thing is

00:41:49   From everything I've heard is super super super

00:41:54   Top priority across the company. It's legit. It's not like a marketing thing. It's no it's what they really actually focus on

00:42:01   You can't say that for everything they do, but this is this is a real this is a real concern for them

00:42:07   I do think they will do something not a full-fledged your API

00:42:10   But that deep linking app indexing feature that Google announced a couple weeks ago. I think that's gonna

00:42:17   Be an iOS 9

00:42:19   It's under the codename breadcrumbs which kind of is like leading a trail of your app to be able to be

00:42:24   Indexed by Siri in spotlight. So something a little smaller scale. Hmm

00:42:29   Yeah, I could see that and it sure would be good if you could

00:42:34   You know

00:42:37   like if you use

00:42:39   Things, you know and that you could say hey Siri tell things to add blah blah blah to my

00:42:48   Next up list right have that parse correctly and I know things maybe is a bad example because I know things like a bunch of

00:42:56   To-do apps can integrate with your system-wide reminders list just to get stuff into your inbox

00:43:02   But there's no way to do like a custom

00:43:04   Just it only makes sense in the context of this app Siri input, right?

00:43:09   And they kind of hacked it like I know and I use things in their settings

00:43:12   They they talk about like reminders plus Siri integrating that with things so they recognize that I think

00:43:18   apps as well have right and you know there's just all sorts of apps where

00:43:22   we're Siri specific input like if Siri could be as smart about a third-party

00:43:27   app as it is about some of the built-in stuff it would be great right well hold

00:43:35   on and then let's talk about what's coming that's the up next remind me

00:43:38   we'll talk about what what we think is coming up or what you know is coming up

00:43:41   next in iOS 9 but let me take a second break here and thank our next sponsor

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00:47:41   So here's what you do.

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00:47:58   My thanks to MailRout. Great service. Do you get spam?

00:48:04   Me? All the time. Probably like a hundred of them a day.

00:48:10   Sometimes I think about email. It's like, can you even imagine anybody setting up a

00:48:15   new service today where it was like you have a public address and anybody else on the entire

00:48:20   internet can just send stuff to you?

00:48:24   crazy. I mean, I hardly read email seriously anymore. I go through it every morning when I

00:48:28   wake up on my phone and I'm basically selecting all most of the time, looking out for names I

00:48:35   recognize or important domains and such, but otherwise it's spam.

00:48:39   Pete: Yeah, it's so crazy. John Siracusa and Merlin Mann have a new podcast and they were

00:48:45   talking about, Siracusa was talking about being in college in the 90s. He was a little bit younger

00:48:50   than me, but at his college to get on the internet before they had it and even like,

00:48:54   you know, like ethernet connections in the dorm rooms, he'd go to the lab and there were these

00:48:57   VT100 terminals. So do you ever see those? Really, it was just, you know, what you think of the

00:49:02   terminal app? It was a computer that that's all it was, was a terminal.

00:49:05   Yeah, sure. Those didn't have email.

00:49:07   Well, you'd log in though, and then you'd get your email. You'd get your mail on, you know,

00:49:12   using like Elm or Pine or one of those apps. But the fact was like that, and I remember this,

00:49:18   It was the same way at Drexel where I went where the terminals themselves were

00:49:21   world-writeable. So, if you knew the terminal name next to you, you could just write characters to

00:49:27   the screen of that terminal. Oh, wow. And, you know, so it was a great way to prank people in

00:49:33   the lab because the assumption was it's like the entire early internet was sort of like built on

00:49:39   academic rules. Like, why would anybody do that? This is, you know, we're all in this together

00:49:44   sort of thinking. Yeah, it's kind of like iCloud but vintage. Right, it's sort of like, you know,

00:49:51   it's just was crazy and email is like this bizarre holdover from that system. Yeah, it's amazing to

00:49:59   me that Apple isn't playing in that email space. You see Dropbox trying it, Facebook with their

00:50:05   messaging and all that and iCloud email in the mail apps on iOS and OS 10 or it's basically

00:50:14   just like how email was handled five ten years ago.

00:50:17   I really think that if anyone would to you know come in here and innovate in some way

00:50:22   in the email space it could be Apple but here they are doing nothing at least publicly.

00:50:27   Yeah that's interesting I never really thought about that but presumably in the same way

00:50:32   that anybody who can iMessage each other if they came out with their own Apple specific

00:50:38   Apple to Apple email 2.0 type thing you know just as many people who can get blue bubbles

00:50:45   with each other and iMessage could send you know some kind of new email type thing to

00:50:51   each other.

00:50:52   Or maybe they'll just you know beef up iMessage and try to make email go away.

00:50:56   Yeah I almost feel like that would be the way that they would go.

00:50:59   Yeah, probably because they just it would be easier for them to put it all in one or

00:51:04   maybe not easier. That seems like the more Apple way. Yeah, like Mail's legacy and iMessage

00:51:09   is the new thing.

00:51:10   Yeah, I wonder how much I wonder how much of their communication takes place on iMessage

00:51:16   internally now because I know that used to be they you know probably still are but I

00:51:21   know they used to be an incredibly email-reliant company that they didn't really have any kind

00:51:27   of complex, I don't know what you would call it, internet-style messaging type thing that

00:51:34   you know most communication within the company took place by email.

00:51:36   Yeah, they probably use Slack these days like everyone else.

00:51:40   Well, they definitely have some teams on Slack because remember when there was that, there

00:51:46   was a thing where you could type in a domain name and see how many people, you know, how

00:51:57   many Slack teams were registered for that domain.

00:52:02   And it was, the idea was Slack added the feature to make it easy for you to connect, you know,

00:52:08   like if, I think it was like you would type in like @9to5mac.com and then it would like

00:52:15   helped you know trying to help you it would be like ah here's the teams for your organization

00:52:20   which one do you want to join but that meant though that you could just take a guess and

00:52:23   type in at microsoft.com and it would like tell you here's all the teams from your company that

00:52:28   are in slack oh wow i wish i knew that probably could have figured out they had a car team yeah

00:52:34   i want no i don't think i don't think there was anything i don't recall anything yeah i don't

00:52:38   think there was anything that uh was telling i think they were kind of smart about it but it

00:52:43   Yeah, I'm just kidding. I'll try to look it up for the show notes. That's a big

00:52:47   I can't believe slack even thought that would be a even half good idea to launch something like that publicly

00:52:51   Well, you know what though? It's exactly like

00:52:54   It's that it is you're right and I'm sure that they were slapping themselves on the forehead over it

00:53:00   But it's like when you are a good person and you're just trying to help somebody it is right

00:53:05   It's so easy to overlook the you know

00:53:09   What if you're a jerk?

00:53:12   Right, right that somebody wrote an article a while ago that everybody needs like a like a chief jerk officer

00:53:19   Who looks at everything and just says okay, but what if I'm a jerk right? Right? That's a good point. Yeah

00:53:26   So iOS 9 yeah, here's where there's a lot more action going on, right? So what do we know?

00:53:37   We know San Francisco, right? We know that user interface wise besides the font. It's gonna look pretty much the same

00:53:44   I heard some new splash of colors color changes on some icons some user interface elements

00:53:50   But if you didn't know the difference between Helvetica and San Francisco, you'd think would be iOS 8

00:53:56   What else do you know

00:54:00   We know about maps maps is getting a big upgrade. So transit finally

00:54:06   They wanted that out the door last year and I guess they're ready now, but it's only going

00:54:12   to be in a handful of cities.

00:54:13   So San Francisco, New York, Toronto, London, Berlin, Paris, and then they want Boston and

00:54:23   Tokyo by the end of the year.

00:54:25   Also they're going to have China launch sort of a small scale roll out.

00:54:29   But at least they're starting.

00:54:31   The funny thing though about hitting those cities is that yes, it sounds like a short list of cities and it's you know

00:54:39   Clearly they are behind Google on this regard because Google has transit information all over the world

00:54:43   but if you can get like the top ten cities you

00:54:47   You hit an enormous number of the people who need the transit information because they're so population dense

00:54:53   Right, and I think they're gonna move quickly on this because I know that this new version is gonna have a notification system

00:55:00   That you can be alerted when transit arrives in your city

00:55:04   So they're planning on updating this frequently over the year and they have a whole road map of where they want to hit

00:55:09   What times in the future right like the big thing is having transit is it the architecture for transit in general?

00:55:16   iOS and then after that they can do over-the-air updates, you know

00:55:21   IOS 9.1 or even 9.0 - or something like that and it adds, you know new cities around right or even over the air without us

00:55:30   software update just through the backend infrastructure right maybe yeah I

00:55:34   wouldn't be surprised if that's the case right but I mean if you were to say

00:55:37   three cities in North America that if you can only hit three I think they got

00:55:41   those three which ones would you say New York or maybe Chicago yeah but you're

00:55:48   thinking it Los Angeles what were you thinking you know Los Angeles because

00:55:51   when I asked whoever I was talking to their Los Angeles is actually extremely

00:55:56   and surprisingly low on the list of where they want to hit. But Los Angeles is a driving city,

00:56:02   anyway. Right. That's exactly why I put Chicago above it. Yeah, I didn't even think of Chicago.

00:56:07   But they got Toronto, San Francisco, New York, and maybe Chicago later. We'll see.

00:56:12   Yeah. And I know Boston has a great infrastructure for it. Like, Philadelphia is a weird city for it.

00:56:19   I know that there's some information. Our public transportation organization is called SEPTA,

00:56:24   Southeast Pennsylvania Transportation Authority. But I think that there's really behind a lot of

00:56:32   the other cities. Like when I was visiting friends in Boston last year, like you could,

00:56:37   it says like, "Hey, your bus is coming in 45 seconds." And like, "Your bus is coming in 45

00:56:41   seconds." Maybe that's why Boston's not ready because they want to integrate that functionality.

00:56:47   Yeah, I don't know. I don't know why Boston, maybe, I think maybe it's still that goes by

00:56:52   population though I mean I don't know I know they really wanted Boston it just wasn't ready yeah

00:56:57   no I don't know and you know I think all these APIs are different you know and all the different

00:57:02   or you know I I've from what I've read about it that there's no like unifying standard

00:57:07   and that one of the reasons that Google has had a years long lead at this is that Google

00:57:14   this is the sort of thing Google is good at and if every single city reports this transportation

00:57:19   information in a different way. Google's really good at saying that's okay, we'll make sense of it.

00:57:23   Jared

00:57:26   Yeah.

00:57:26   Pete: Even if it's not like uniform. I would guess that Apple could take, if they only did two cities,

00:57:30   San Francisco and New York, it would hit an awful lot of the usage.

00:57:34   Jared Right. And the entirety of China.

00:57:36   Pete Right.

00:57:37   Jared That's a big one there.

00:57:38   Pete Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I would guess China, it might even be more important. I think China,

00:57:46   that the number of people who take public transportation has got to be insane.

00:57:49   Yeah, but the interesting thing about China is that there's some legal government monopoly

00:57:55   on Alibaba who owns AutoNavi. So Apple is not allowed to do their own transit data collection

00:58:02   in China. So they've actually struck a deal with Alibaba to get the data from them for China.

00:58:09   Hmm. I wonder what the difference will be.

00:58:11   Yeah, I don't know. Probably reliability.

00:58:14   - Yeah. Anything else for maps?

00:58:19   - Yeah, so those vans that they've been driving around

00:58:23   are for a few things.

00:58:24   One, they're redoing their entire base map,

00:58:26   the geography fundamentals of the map app,

00:58:29   and they're wanting to launch that by 2017 or 18.

00:58:33   So the trucks are doing verification on that data,

00:58:37   but they're also taking pictures of storefronts.

00:58:40   So a lot of people thought these were street view cameras,

00:58:43   like what Google does and they do collect data like that

00:58:46   for 3D stuff that they're gonna do in the future.

00:58:48   But the more short term thing is taking pictures

00:58:51   of like a Chipotle or a storefront for an office

00:58:55   to replace Yelp.

00:58:56   So right now, when you go into a place in the Maps app,

00:59:00   let's say you go to a restaurant,

00:59:01   it'll show you a picture of a menu item at the top

00:59:04   taken by someone who uploaded it to Yelp.

00:59:07   And a lot of times those pictures are very poor quality.

00:59:10   So Apple stepping back and saying,

00:59:12   "Hey, we wanna do this ourselves."

00:59:14   So they're taking stills of storefronts.

00:59:16   And the plan was to start ruling that out with iOS 9,

00:59:20   but it's more of a long-term initiative,

00:59:21   so it might not be ready yet.

00:59:24   And there's also a Browse Around Me feature.

00:59:27   So let's say you're standing on a street

00:59:29   and you wanna see a curated list of great places

00:59:33   to go around you.

00:59:35   So it's kinda like the app around me

00:59:38   and it'll show you like a list of the best cafes,

00:59:40   the best whatever around you best cell phone store and they've also been testing that with

00:59:47   an augmented reality view so you can wave your phone around and see through the phone's

00:59:53   camera lens the stuff around you kind of like Yelp tested a feature like this a few years

00:59:56   ago and Google had something like this not sure if that's ready but those are some things

01:00:01   they've been testing.

01:00:03   Very interesting I do think with some of the mapping stuff it's understandable that they're

01:00:09   still behind Google just because Google had a lead and I do think that they've

01:00:15   sort of that they're roughly keeping pace like I don't think they're I my

01:00:20   gut feeling is that they're closer than they were I mean when when Apple Maps

01:00:24   debuted it infamously it was you know one of the worst received product

01:00:29   rollouts in recent memory from Apple I think since then even if you don't count

01:00:36   That first version even if you fast forward a year

01:00:39   I still think that in the time since then they've caught up more to Google than Google has

01:00:44   Pulled further ahead and I think that's just the way it is when you're behind that's fair. Yeah

01:00:48   Here's my problem with that. My problem is that only now they're starting their own data collection to release

01:00:55   more reliable version

01:00:58   three four years from now

01:00:59   Instead of going to Tom Tom and those other data sources back whenever they started this project in 2010 2011

01:01:06   before the fall 2012 launch, instead of going to them,

01:01:09   why didn't Apple start their own data collection process

01:01:13   at the very beginning?

01:01:14   That's what I don't get.

01:01:15   - Yeah, and I would broaden it a little bit

01:01:17   and just say that, and again,

01:01:19   I do think that they've gotten better.

01:01:20   I use Apple Maps, and I know with Topolski on his show,

01:01:23   he just, he like laughed at me and said,

01:01:25   "Nobody uses Apple Maps."

01:01:26   But that's not true.

01:01:27   If you look at the stats, like iPhone users

01:01:29   overwhelmingly use Apple Maps.

01:01:31   It's, you know, they use it. - Yeah, I use it.

01:01:33   - They use it way more than Google Maps.

01:01:34   And I've had some really good experiences with it.

01:01:37   But the thing that gets me is it seems like

01:01:39   some of the stuff that they've done,

01:01:40   it could be expressed as that they've cheaped out.

01:01:43   Like why not just, like you said,

01:01:46   why not start collecting the money?

01:01:47   Like some of this is just sort of a manpower issue.

01:01:50   Like Google Street View is a pretty cool feature,

01:01:55   but among many things that Google does,

01:01:57   it to me is like, it's not the most technically impressive.

01:02:00   To me, it's like manpower impressive

01:02:03   They've sent so many cars out with so many teams to take so many pictures

01:02:09   All around the world. It's just like

01:02:12   It's like how many companies have the resources to do that?

01:02:16   Well, guess what Apple is a company that you know

01:02:18   It's it to me seems like a problem that you can solve by throwing money at it

01:02:21   Absolutely, and who has more money than Apple should have started throwing money at this a bit longer ago and the the

01:02:29   And again, I whenever this comes up on the show

01:02:32   I always preface it by saying it is so much easier to spend somebody else's money than your own

01:02:36   So every time I advocate Apple spending money. Yes, I understand

01:02:40   And that the way that you build a massive war chest of money like they have is by not spending money frivolously

01:02:47   But that said why not buy every map being company with decent

01:02:55   You know why not buy as many of them as they can or at least more than they have why not buy TomTom?

01:03:00   Whatever it costs because surely whatever it would cost would be affordable to Apple

01:03:04   Right. I mean, I know they looked at more than they that they bought they looked at Foursquare for sure

01:03:10   Yeah, they looked at they looked at Yelp or a deeper partnership with Yelp

01:03:14   But I guess they felt they could do it better than their own better on their own

01:03:18   And what's the point of buying TomTom if you can have a cheaper partnership with them anyways, I?

01:03:24   Guess but on the other I don't know it just in the back of my head. It just seems to me like that they

01:03:29   Yes, there's engineering problems

01:03:32   but that some of the stuff with maps could have been accelerated by throwing money at it and

01:03:38   Again, one thing is just putting manpower out there, you know and having more

01:03:42   You know more of these teams with these

01:03:45   Goofy looking bands covered with cameras out in the street, right? What they seem to be doing with these acquisitions is buying

01:03:52   maps related technology and

01:03:55   Resource and science companies from that instead of buying a data company. So Tom Tom's data companies

01:04:02   So is four square and Yelp, but they bought all those transit apps who came up with like trip planning features and all that

01:04:08   They bought spot setter which didn't provide data

01:04:12   But it sort of aggregated points of interest what they'll be using for that other mass feature we talked about

01:04:16   So they're sort of buying the means to build the data themselves

01:04:20   Right, and they bought the company that had the thing that they use for the 3d view right c3 technologies

01:04:27   Right, and I think that at the time that they're there live, you know

01:04:32   it took Apple's acquisition of them for them to really beef up the

01:04:35   amount of

01:04:37   Imaging that they had but it was so is it? Yes, they had some but it was mostly a technology acquisition not a data acquisition

01:04:44   Well, they bought c3

01:04:45   Before the maps came out

01:04:48   So they bought C3 in 2011 right now in 2012, but I guess it wouldn't have been as good without them, right?

01:04:55   I don't remember during like the beta period for iOS 6

01:04:58   They stripped all the 3d from one of the betas and then the next release

01:05:03   All the 3d stuff came back and it was ten times better than it was before soon

01:05:07   No, I don't remember that something probably fixed in the middle there

01:05:11   I do remember that it was a major part of four stalls demo of it when he unveiled it

01:05:16   Right at the iPhone 5 event and the WWDC right? Yeah, that was also his fault. So yeah

01:05:23   Maybe a little bit. Well, you know, I might have been the straw that broke the camel's back is one way to look at it

01:05:31   Sure. I think that even if maps I suspect though my hunches in the alternate universe where maps had a

01:05:37   Let's say lukewarm response because I think that was the best they were gonna do

01:05:43   There was no way that they were gonna it's just not feasible to come out of the gate with a with a

01:05:48   Complete peer to Google Maps, but they had to make the switch because of contract reasons that they just couldn't they

01:05:56   Were they did not want to give Google another year and what Google was asking for them?

01:06:02   You know was more than they wanted to give and they wanted things like turn-by-turn directions

01:06:07   So they needed to just rip the band-aid off and do it even if it had been a better launch like hey

01:06:11   This is about as good as we could have done the first time I still think forest all would have been gone when he was

01:06:15   Gone. Oh, yeah, I agree

01:06:17   But I think that you know, it didn't help. I don't think it helped anybody. No

01:06:23   What else in Mac, oh or not Mac OS iOS 9

01:06:30   iOS 9 so we talked about San Francisco

01:06:34   transit

01:06:36   Oh

01:06:37   - Oh, the proactive stuff.

01:06:39   So last year's big term was continuity, right?

01:06:42   - Right.

01:06:43   - This year, the big term,

01:06:44   now I don't know if this expands marketing-wise,

01:06:46   but internally, something called proactive,

01:06:49   and that Maps Browse Around Me features one component,

01:06:52   but another component,

01:06:53   now I don't know if this is 100% a lock for next week,

01:06:56   but they have been working on this with the intention,

01:07:00   back whenever they were working on this, for iOS 9,

01:07:02   so I just wanna preface by saying that,

01:07:04   but it's an entirely new spotlight.

01:07:07   And instead of pulling down on the home screen,

01:07:10   you swipe to the right to open the new screen on the left,

01:07:14   kind of like how you open Spotlight pre-iOS 7.

01:07:17   - Yeah, when I read this on your site,

01:07:19   I misread it at first, and I didn't get it,

01:07:22   and now I get it.

01:07:22   It's sort of like, to me, it's like home screen zero.

01:07:26   Like if you count your first home screen as home screen one,

01:07:28   now there's one at position zero to the left.

01:07:31   - Right, and I called it a layer in my story,

01:07:33   and that probably was not a good way to reference it.

01:07:37   Probably better would have been the first home screen.

01:07:40   But it's part of the OS and at the top

01:07:43   there's like the spotlight search bar that you have now.

01:07:47   But beneath that is a bunch of timely functionality

01:07:50   similar to Google Now.

01:07:51   So your next calendar appointments,

01:07:54   if you have an appointment at the airport,

01:07:56   you're going on a flight,

01:07:57   the passport card for the airline ticket could appear.

01:08:00   If I call you John every day at 5.30 p.m.,

01:08:04   a bubble could pop up saying it's time to call John.

01:08:07   Or if it's 1 p.m. and it's lunchtime,

01:08:10   another bubble with local restaurants

01:08:13   around my location could pop up.

01:08:15   So stuff of that nature.

01:08:17   - Right, but that's where you'll go

01:08:19   if you know that you want to launch this app

01:08:22   and you don't know which home screen it's on.

01:08:23   Instead of doing the pull down thing,

01:08:25   you go over there to home screen zero

01:08:26   and start typing the name of the app.

01:08:28   Right?

01:08:30   So, yep, there's that too, but there also will be,

01:08:34   yeah, it's kind of like when you type in

01:08:37   like a search term now, it'll show you like Wikipedia

01:08:40   or other stuff like that.

01:08:42   So if you were to type in, you know,

01:08:45   like call or food or calendar or whatever,

01:08:47   those relevant search results could pop up

01:08:49   or they could just be there waiting for you.

01:08:51   It's to be seen what they do.

01:08:52   But it's a big emphasis on redoing Spotlight

01:08:55   for more contextual features.

01:08:57   - Yeah, I forget if we've talked about,

01:08:59   I think I was with Renee last week

01:09:00   where we talked about this,

01:09:01   but the one reason that, to me, it makes a lot of sense

01:09:03   is that just from a basic,

01:09:07   I don't even know what you wanna call it,

01:09:11   just a common sense user interface design thing,

01:09:13   the way it is now and the way it has been since iOS 7

01:09:17   doesn't make a lot of sense to me

01:09:19   because if you pull down from the edge,

01:09:21   you get Notification Center in Today View,

01:09:25   but if you pull down in the middle,

01:09:27   then you get the Spotlight Search.

01:09:28   And to me, that pull down from two different places

01:09:32   and you get two entirely different things

01:09:34   is it's just a bad idea.

01:09:37   - Oh yeah, yeah, for sure.

01:09:38   - Right, so give it its own side

01:09:40   and then all of a sudden to me it makes a lot more sense.

01:09:42   - Right, and with the new functionality.

01:09:44   So I think that if this does indeed launch next week,

01:09:47   it will be the highlight of iOS 9.

01:09:50   - Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised

01:09:51   and that would be a good place too where,

01:09:54   who knows if they have any new partnerships

01:09:56   to announce from other third parties

01:10:00   that could sneak into those results.

01:10:03   - Right, have you seen the app Q

01:10:05   that Apple acquired a couple years ago?

01:10:07   - Only I think through your report.

01:10:11   But it's spelled like Eddie's last name, C-U-E.

01:10:15   - That's why he bought it, he wanted the domain name.

01:10:17   (laughing)

01:10:19   - Well, you have to clarify though that it's not Q-U-E-U-E.

01:10:22   - Right, right, right.

01:10:25   CUE, maybe they bought it for trademark purposes too.

01:10:28   - So what's the Q app?

01:10:30   - The Q app is basically a list of things in your day

01:10:35   based on your calendar.

01:10:36   So basically what I explained, kind of like Google Now.

01:10:39   So you have a Facebook event coming up

01:10:41   or a calendar event that you're going on a flight

01:10:43   or you want to pull up the airline ticket

01:10:45   or restaurants, cafes, or offices,

01:10:48   or stores around you type of deal.

01:10:51   Also local events or let's say in my calendar

01:10:55   I have podcasts with John at 1.30 p.m.

01:10:59   Around 1.30 p.m., I'll get a bubble

01:11:02   saying podcasts with John.

01:11:04   It'll show me your contact and phone number

01:11:07   and maybe emails related to it as well.

01:11:10   It's very contact app, email, and maps oriented.

01:11:13   - Yeah.

01:11:14   That sounds right to me and it's, you know, let's face it,

01:11:20   a lot of this stuff is it's no surprise

01:11:24   that iOS and Android are sort of coalescing around the same ideas.

01:11:30   And I think in terms of UI niceness, iOS was way out ahead.

01:11:37   And in terms of this sort of context about your life sensibility, Google was obviously

01:11:48   ahead and is ahead.

01:11:50   And so they're both playing catch up in each other's areas.

01:11:52   So it's no surprise to me that,

01:11:55   and I didn't even make hay about it.

01:11:56   I pointed it out, but to me it's no surprise

01:11:58   that the new copy and paste UI in Android M

01:12:03   is really, it's just their version

01:12:05   of the iOS copy and paste system.

01:12:07   They tried their own thing with these inscrutable icons

01:12:10   at the top of the thing,

01:12:11   as opposed to putting it right above the selection.

01:12:14   I think maybe they were trying to do the noble thing

01:12:16   and come up with their own UI.

01:12:18   And you know what?

01:12:20   Bottom line is lo these five six years since iOS had copy and paste later. It's pretty clear

01:12:25   this is the way to do it on a touchscreen and now they're doing it and I

01:12:28   think that this sort of look your phone should know if you have a flight and

01:12:34   Ideally, it should know if traffic is bad between where you are right now and the airport where you're going

01:12:41   Well, you know that stuff will be there right like this is not super advanced AI like you, you know, you're in

01:12:48   Centers, you know me I'm in Center City, Philadelphia. I have a flight today at five

01:12:53   That leaves from the Philadelphia Airport well

01:12:58   it's not that hard for like the phone to figure out that at some point I'm gonna need to leave where I am and get

01:13:04   to the airport and

01:13:05   It can check the map and say wow traffic is really bad. You should leave earlier than you think

01:13:10   And they've been building up to this for the last few years

01:13:14   Anyways with some of that data that you can see the places you go to often and all that

01:13:19   Well, I think this ties into another bit of news this week, which is Tim Cook's speech at this epic

01:13:25   EPIC dinner where where you know depending on you want to put it sort of a scathing critique of

01:13:31   Without naming them I'd say Google and Facebook and the fact that they sell targeted ads based on what they know about you

01:13:40   and

01:13:42   You know, it's got a lot of coverage. I think deservedly so I think it's definitely an interesting issue

01:13:47   I think it's one that that you know

01:13:49   Whatever even if you're all in on the Google platform that you want to be aware of

01:13:54   I do think I think Ben Thompson had a good piece

01:13:58   It's behind his paywall for subscribers

01:14:00   But he had a good piece that I would summarize like this that if Tim Cook's being disingenuous

01:14:04   it is in

01:14:07   The way that he's phrasing it and I think it's a sort of very astute point from from Ben which is

01:14:13   that cook is saying that they're selling your information to advertisers and

01:14:19   They're not actually what they're doing is promising advertisers that their ads will go to the people who are interested

01:14:28   But they're not giving that information to the advertisers

01:14:31   So an advertiser who pays for the targeted ad doesn't know a goddamn thing about Mark Herman

01:14:36   Right? It's because that information is what enables them to sell the ads.

01:14:42   They're actually, they do collect information about you.

01:14:45   They do use that information to make money from advertising,

01:14:48   but they're not giving that information to advertisers

01:14:51   because it's that information that they have that is so valuable

01:14:56   that if anything, they might be more motivated

01:14:58   to keep your stuff private than Apple is

01:15:01   because it's the fact that nobody else knows as much about you

01:15:05   that's Facebook and/or Google in the different ways

01:15:08   that they know stuff about you that makes them so valuable.

01:15:11   It's actually an interesting point.

01:15:12   But on the flip side, and where this ties in

01:15:14   with what you and I have just been talking about,

01:15:16   is I think some people are overlooking the fact

01:15:20   that because Apple doesn't collect this stuff

01:15:23   for the purpose of selling you targeted ads,

01:15:25   that they're not even in the ballgame

01:15:27   of this context-sensitive stuff.

01:15:30   And I don't think that, I think that they're gonna be

01:15:33   very very surprised by the next year or two from Apple. Yeah this is a differentiator here I agree

01:15:39   is that it's all about the data that Apple already has with from you on the phone and maybe this will

01:15:44   be on the Mac too. They're not really opening this up to third-party developers as much as they could

01:15:49   if they wanted to not care about privacy as much as they do. I'll re-tell an anecdote I told to

01:15:57   Topolski on his show earlier this week because I think it's so telling and it's an early example

01:16:01   of this sort of thing. But back in April, early April, I had an appointment with my accountant.

01:16:08   I live in Center City, Philadelphia. My accountant is out in the suburbs. I've been going to him for

01:16:13   years. I know how to get there. But I was testing the Apple Watch. It was the first week. It was

01:16:17   actually the week in between when I got the review unit and when the review was due. And I don't

01:16:21   drive that much. I thought, well, here's the one. Here's a chance to try out driving directions.

01:16:26   I'll let the watch give me driving directions there, even though I don't really need them.

01:16:31   And it worked great, but then halfway there, it told me to get off the – we call it the

01:16:38   Schuylkill Expressway. It's the main artery west out of Philadelphia. And it told me to get off

01:16:45   and go a way that I never would have driven. I thought, "Well, I'll listen to Siri. Let's see

01:16:51   see what happens. And as I took the exit, I looked ahead and I could see that it had

01:16:56   taken me off an exit and traffic was at a standstill ahead. And I was like, "Hmm."

01:17:03   And it took me this weird way through North Philadelphia that I never would have gone,

01:17:08   I've never driven there in my life. And I ended up getting to my accountant maybe 10

01:17:13   minutes later than I normally would have given when I left. But I was still early, I was

01:17:18   on time and I checked on the news and on the maps and a tractor trailer had overturned

01:17:23   on this Google Expressway and if I had just stayed on this Google, I never would have

01:17:27   made the appointment. And it actually was kind of a big deal because like rescheduling

01:17:31   an appointment with your accountant in early April is like you're asking a huge favor because


01:17:38   Yeah, not easy.

01:17:39   … pretty much he's already booked 14 hours a day. I was kind of blown away. It's very,

01:17:44   very clear to me that the turn-by-turn driving directions I got from Siri took the traffic

01:17:49   into consideration and gave me a bizarre, to me a bizarre plan B or route B until I

01:17:55   found out that there is this traffic. And I think little things like that are the sort

01:17:59   of things that people, I think a lot of people think Apple isn't doing at all and that's

01:18:04   why they, you know, they think Google has a leg up in these regards.

01:18:07   Right. So you think they need a better pronounce that they're doing this?

01:18:12   Yeah, and you know, I think it's gonna sneak up on it might you know

01:18:15   It might be the sort of thing that they never get credit for it because they might never completely catch up to Google

01:18:19   But they're right. They'll keep pace and then these things are gonna get better, but there's no doubt that this is the future

01:18:25   this is like the next few years of

01:18:27   Like the whole ballgame, right?

01:18:30   So maybe like this new spotlight screen will show

01:18:33   Maybe leave a few minutes early because there is a car fire here and there. Yeah or something like that

01:18:39   you know and I wonder how that ties into Siri too like this new spotlight screen yeah um Siri it's a

01:18:47   compliment it's not a replacement or really anything like that it's more of a works with

01:18:53   Siri type of thing right so it's I wouldn't call it a textual view of Siri and more so

01:18:58   call it a compliment I think is a good way to do it but some of it's already tied in like when you

01:19:04   do you know like and some of it's just product marketing what do they call what

01:19:09   it what do they call Siri exactly right see like I honestly when I was writing

01:19:13   this report I didn't have insight into how they're gonna market it because I

01:19:17   don't even know if they settled on all that by the time this story was written

01:19:21   but they could very well kill the name spotlight not username proactive and

01:19:26   call all this stuff Siri like the new Siri screen on the home screen yeah or

01:19:31   they could just keep this as, I mean I think they're just going to keep this as Spotlight,

01:19:35   there's this whole thing called Spotlight. So what if they even integrate this onto the Mac

01:19:39   too? I mean some of the stuff wouldn't make sense, but maybe a better view for appointments and such.

01:19:44   Yeah, because some of the stuff definitely involves some of the same partners, you know,

01:19:49   where the auto-fill results in Safari come from some of the same partners that they have for Siri.

01:19:58   That's yeah, and that's the same deal. It's all it's all one back-end type of deal here the spotlight the new proactive stuff and the

01:20:05   Results in Safari and a lot of this is really to try to tackle Google and reduce reliance on them

01:20:11   Eventually, you know, it's very hard to just wake up one day and decide to drop Google search from your platform

01:20:17   But year over year they're adding features that kind of reduce the reliance on Google

01:20:22   Kind of teaching the consumer that Google is not necessary

01:20:26   So last year they took some steps with the new spotlight with the Wikipedia results and all that and some news articles this year

01:20:33   They'll have this next year. Maybe they'll have something else maybe a year two or three after that

01:20:38   Everyone will be like there's no point for Google search and it'll be easy to go away. I've noticed and it's subtle

01:20:44   And I use duck duck go a lot too, but on I don't even know why I don't really have a strategy for it

01:20:52   But like on my Mac I have my default search for the search field in Safari

01:20:56   it said to duck duck go and I have had it set for months and

01:20:59   I've tried it on and off ever since they made it an option and at some point it was it got to be good enough

01:21:05   Where it stuck?

01:21:07   On the phone. I still have Google as my default search

01:21:10   I I don't know why but I've noticed that even on the phone how many times the top result is

01:21:15   Yes, that's what I'm looking for. And then I noticed that it's not going through Google. It's the

01:21:21   Safari suggestion which is backed by Google that they're more or less it's

01:21:28   like their version of I feel lucky right except you get to pre absolutely you get

01:21:32   to preview it before you actually tap it and I I've noticed on the phone that

01:21:36   it's it's exactly what I want an awful lot of time which right and there's a

01:21:41   big emphasis right and there's also a big emphasis part of this proactive

01:21:44   thing to improve that because right now it's not a hundred percent of the time

01:21:49   that you'll get a Wikipedia result or a news article. The news article thing for a search term might only fire

01:21:54   25% of the time. So they're working on improving the AI so you can get more quick results like you said more frequently.

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01:25:40   So iOS 9, we were talking about Proactive.

01:25:42   That doesn't sound like a name that they would use.

01:25:44   I don't know though.

01:25:45   No, especially with the acne cream with the same name.

01:25:48   Maybe it's just an internal thing.

01:25:50   Yeah, you never know though.

01:25:52   It's very hard to predict the product marketing stuff and it tends to be the tightest kept

01:25:56   secret. Partly because they can just change it at the last minute.

01:26:00   Right, right. Alright, what else is on the agenda for iOS 9?

01:26:05   iOS 9, some minor things are on the edges. So they've been testing a new feature for

01:26:12   iMessage where you can set read receipts per contact. So if I want messages sent to you

01:26:19   for you to know that if they've been read, that's fine. But if I don't want my parents

01:26:24   to see that I've read their messages can turn that off.

01:26:28   Right, that makes a lot of sense.

01:26:31   That also makes me think that they're using it a lot internally.

01:26:34   Yeah, perhaps.

01:26:36   Also this is maybe to your point about internal usage, they're also testing read receipts

01:26:41   for group chats so you can see who in a chat has read each message.

01:26:47   Yeah, that makes sense too, same thing.

01:26:50   Yeah, same, probably the same infrastructural deal there.

01:26:54   Yeah

01:26:56   Forced touch support obviously they won't announce that on Monday, but right means that the success will have forced touch

01:27:02   I'm sure there'll be a developer API for that as well

01:27:06   Yeah, but I wonder and I wonder if that's the sort of thing that will I'm guessing no but it's you know

01:27:15   Obviously they're not going to talk about it, right?

01:27:17   But will it be in the beta builds? Will it will be people be able to look at it?

01:27:22   My guess is no.

01:27:23   I think they're--

01:27:24   - I'm sure someone will find it hidden deep down.

01:27:27   Trying to think, oh, on the HomeKit app.

01:27:31   So a new app, at least they were planning this,

01:27:34   now that they have HomeKit accessories on the market,

01:27:37   which just happened to come out this past week,

01:27:39   you'll be able to set up, install, organize

01:27:42   through virtual rooms your HomeKit setups.

01:27:44   So that's an interesting app.

01:27:48   They have Home, and then HomeKit, Health, HealthKit,

01:27:51   and all that.

01:27:53   - I wonder how much HomeKit stuff

01:27:56   they're gonna have to announce next week.

01:27:58   - Yeah.

01:27:59   - 'Cause that's another one where the word

01:28:01   that I'd understood was that it was sort of tied

01:28:05   to that new Apple TV, that the Apple TV would be the hub

01:28:09   for that sort of thing.

01:28:10   - Oh, right, right.

01:28:12   Yeah, I did hear that as well.

01:28:14   - And if they don't have the Apple TV,

01:28:18   I don't know what that means for HomeKit,

01:28:19   Even though they're already out, you know, publicly with the first HomeKit products are,

01:28:23   you know, shipping imminently and stuff like that.

01:28:27   It'll be interesting to see.

01:28:29   Also on the iPad, it sounds like split screen apps are finally ready.

01:28:33   Yeah, I saw that and I'm curious that that's not like a thing that they held for new hardware

01:28:38   and that they might announce it next week.

01:28:40   Oh, they may be holding it for new hardware.

01:28:43   But you're saying it's definitely in the OS.

01:28:47   Right.

01:28:48   So they might not announce it.

01:28:49   It might not be in the betas, but they're working on it with the OS. Another thing is

01:28:53   multi users on the iPad

01:28:56   That for sure isn't ready for 9.0, but they are working on that too. So maybe do you know it?

01:29:03   Is it true multi-user support like like if if let's say somebody and their spouse both share an iPad and that they could

01:29:11   You know person a can use it and then when they put it down

01:29:17   their spouse can pick it up and switch and then it'll like, you know do something and then it's

01:29:22   Completely the other person's iPad or is it just like a guest account? No, no, no

01:29:28   No, it's true multi-user on a Mac with different home directories and all that. Of course the user can't see home directories on iOS

01:29:35   But in terms of the infrastructure and the fundamentals of it, it's just like on the Mac from what I understand

01:29:41   hmm

01:29:43   All right, let's see if I still got a little game left. All right, what about this? Have you heard anything about?

01:29:48   in iOS

01:29:51   Getting a dedicated iCloud Drive app

01:29:54   Yes that there was a dedicated iCloud Drive app

01:29:58   But I'm not sure if that's internal only or if it's gonna be released the last person I talked to

01:30:06   Said they didn't see an iCloud Drive app on the iOS 9 build they were using

01:30:10   So maybe it's an app store download,

01:30:13   you activate it in settings,

01:30:14   but for sure they have one in usage internally

01:30:18   and able to be used and ready to go.

01:30:20   In fact, I'm surprised they didn't have

01:30:22   an iCloud drive app released with iCloud drive last year.

01:30:26   But I wouldn't be surprised by an iCloud drive app at all.

01:30:29   - Right, which should probably be the closest

01:30:31   that iOS is ever gonna get to having a finder.

01:30:34   - Yeah, I'd agree on that.

01:30:36   - Right, instead of access to the file system,

01:30:39   you get the access to this abstract file system,

01:30:42   which isn't really the file system, it's you know, like--

01:30:45   - Dropbox.

01:30:47   - Right, sort of, or like in the Finder,

01:30:51   if you were just limited to the iCloud Drive

01:30:54   source list item.

01:30:55   - Right, it'll be interesting to see,

01:30:57   I mean even thinking about myself,

01:30:58   right now I use Dropbox.

01:31:00   If they had a full-fledged iOS app,

01:31:02   I'd absolutely consider switching to iCloud Drive.

01:31:06   - Yeah, because why duplicate it?

01:31:09   - Right, now let me tell you why I think

01:31:11   that you could be right on this iCloud Drive app,

01:31:13   if you were implying that you had heard this.

01:31:15   They are kind of gonna be pushing iCloud Drive

01:31:20   more as a service, as in right now,

01:31:23   the Notes app and the Calendar app and all that,

01:31:27   it uses an IMAP infrastructure through iCloud

01:31:30   for syncing what your device is,

01:31:32   but what they're wanting to do is remove that,

01:31:34   in turn notes and calendar and reminders

01:31:37   into what they're calling iCloud Drive apps.

01:31:40   So when you launch notes on iOS 9 or OS 10, 10.11,

01:31:45   it'll say, would you like to transition your data

01:31:48   over to iCloud Drive?

01:31:50   Now iCloud Drive, obviously they have more control over it.

01:31:52   It's more secure, it goes back to the privacy

01:31:54   and security stuff we talked about.

01:31:56   And also it's probably quicker than IMAP syncing.

01:31:59   - So I think it's gotta be,

01:32:01   if it's not quicker than IMAP,

01:32:02   then they've got a real problem.

01:32:03   Because IMAP is not a quick syncing protocol.

01:32:07   Right.

01:32:08   So there could be a big iCloud drive portion then there.

01:32:11   Yeah.

01:32:12   And it's interesting and it's always hard to migrate.

01:32:15   Right.

01:32:16   Because I can see why that when you launch it they ask because it's a big deal.

01:32:22   Right.

01:32:23   But the thing is now, and Notes is the one near and dear to my heart as part of the developers

01:32:28   behind Vesper, I know just how bad IMAP is as a note-syncing protocol. They've done what

01:32:36   I think is the noble thing and allowed you for years to pick any of your IMAP accounts

01:32:41   to be one of—it's an option with every IMAP account you set up. Do you want notes to use

01:32:46   this too? Then they set up a secret mailbox called Notes, and it's actually a mailbox

01:32:52   on your mail account that Apple Mail is smart enough not to show you, but the notes are

01:32:57   overall IMAP messages and it's behind the scenes it's really a mess because IMAP was

01:33:01   never meant to do that. Messages aren't meant to be read/write. Some email systems get screwed

01:33:06   up and as anybody who's ever had anything to do with email development or APIs knows

01:33:13   IMAP server A and IMAP server B never speak quite the same dialect of IMAP. So notes is

01:33:19   trying to you know like a like a babble fish type thing and treat all these I map things

01:33:27   as equivalent back ends when they're not right so I guess this serves to fix all that and

01:33:32   it could be a bigger deal than what would yeah it should it if you switch I would switch

01:33:38   immediately yeah you know and it should make anything that you switch that way what else

01:33:42   is it besides notes would it I heard notes is the big one that that that's the one that

01:33:49   they really focused on but assuming that they're wanting to get this across the board as a

01:33:56   service, notes, reminders, contacts and calendars would all be part of it.

01:34:03   What does reminders use now?

01:34:04   Is reminders IMAP based?

01:34:06   I think it is.

01:34:07   I'm not 100% sure.

01:34:08   I don't know or even if it's not, it's probably not using iCloud Drive which is…

01:34:13   Right.

01:34:14   It's like a directional shift to positioning iCloud Drive as the service for storing all

01:34:18   this data now. Maybe some more developer enhancements to that as well.

01:34:23   The other benefit to this is it's always good when Apple is dogfooding its own iCloud stuff

01:34:31   because it means that any kind of bugs or even if it's not a bug, even if it's like,

01:34:38   "Well, when you do this, it's actually kind of slow," makes it way more likely that it's

01:34:42   going to get a higher priority to be addressed because, quite frankly, Apple cares more about

01:34:48   their own stuff and then they do everybody else's.

01:34:50   - Right, another big thing, I don't know if this

01:34:52   interests most consumers, but big changes to Swift.

01:34:57   So, you know, right now, this is not very well known,

01:35:00   everyone hears the term Swift, Swift is Apple's new thing,

01:35:03   but as you probably know, iOS is not written in Swift,

01:35:07   the Apple's native apps, they're not Swift apps,

01:35:10   they're still on Objective-C, because Swift is still

01:35:13   in its early stages, but I believe that on Monday,

01:35:17   they're gonna announce that Swift is moving into stage two,

01:35:20   that it's meeting a new level of stability

01:35:23   where Apple's actually gonna pre-install

01:35:25   the Swift programming libraries into iOS 9

01:35:29   so developers could write Swift apps

01:35:31   and not have to include the Swift libraries

01:35:33   in each of their binaries,

01:35:35   which means that the OS will make app downloads

01:35:39   for new iOS 9 apps about 10 megabytes smaller

01:35:42   or eight megabytes smaller on average.

01:35:44   And let's say you have 10, you know, Swift apps

01:35:48   on your iOS 8 phone, that's about 80 megabytes back,

01:35:51   which is great for people on smaller storage sizes.

01:35:55   And then next year with iOS 10 and 10.12,

01:36:00   they're hoping to hit like 3.0

01:36:02   and ship their own apps written in Swift.

01:36:04   So that's gonna be a major transition next year

01:36:06   if they stick to that pace.

01:36:08   - If they hit that, that's actually, you know,

01:36:11   for anybody who's not a programmer

01:36:13   and doesn't understand just how deep Apple's roots

01:36:15   with Objective-C goes.

01:36:16   If they started shipping Apple first-party apps

01:36:20   written in Swift in 2016, that's startlingly fast.

01:36:25   Really, really, really would be.

01:36:28   I think even last year, everybody was blown away

01:36:31   by the announcement of Swift and the keynote.

01:36:33   Even then, though, I think most people's best case scenario

01:36:36   was three or four years out.

01:36:37   - Yeah, I guess the plan could change, but.

01:36:40   - Yeah, no, I've heard the same thing

01:36:42   about the libraries being built into the OS.

01:36:45   And I think that there's two explanations for that.

01:36:49   And I could be, I think I'm right on both parts.

01:36:52   But I think one of them is that Swift was developed

01:36:55   in secret and very few people knew about it

01:36:58   before the keynote last year inside Apple.

01:37:01   And so therefore there was no way that,

01:37:04   no matter how stable it was when it debuted,

01:37:06   there's no way that it was gonna make it into iOS 8.

01:37:10   - Right.

01:37:11   And number two, it wasn't that stable.

01:37:12   It's a fast moving target.

01:37:14   They said so, they did not over promise.

01:37:18   They said, hey, some of this stuff is gonna change.

01:37:20   We're showing it to you now because we want it to change

01:37:22   based on the feedback we get from you guys outside.

01:37:26   And so because it was changing so fast,

01:37:29   I don't know that it was even feasible

01:37:31   to include the libraries in the OS

01:37:33   because if your app was compiled against

01:37:37   earlier version of Swift from around September and mine was compiled with a newer version

01:37:44   of Swift like the version 1.2 I think which came out in February. We need different libraries

01:37:50   anyway and so yeah you're exactly right though that every single Swift app written to date

01:37:55   includes the Swift libraries you know in the app bundle. Right. It definitely adds up over

01:38:02   I mean when you're on cellular, right? Yeah, that's another big thing there. So

01:38:07   Part of the same quality stability overall low-level improvements type of thing as well. Yeah, I definitely think so. Yeah, I

01:38:17   Don't know. You never know. I mean who knows what the hell's gonna be in the keynote and anything that I mean

01:38:22   All I know is iOS 9 and OS 10

01:38:24   but I wouldn't be surprised if Swift made the keynote again and did not wasn't just relegated to the

01:38:30   afternoon state of the platform's second keynote.

01:38:33   Right. We'll see. Maybe they'll throw something up on that last slide they always do with the

01:38:38   very small changes, smaller app downloads or something for Swift apps.

01:38:43   Yeah, maybe. That's certainly one way to make it compelling. Who knows? And the Swift team was

01:38:49   very secretive last year. And even though the public changes, there have been plenty of them

01:38:53   in the year since it's come out. Who knows what other secret stuff they've been working on in

01:38:57   in terms of performance or something like that.

01:39:00   I mean, again, and it's so hard to say,

01:39:02   'cause I know the conference is WWDC,

01:39:04   and so ostensibly the whole conference is about developers,

01:39:07   but let's face it, the Monday keynote

01:39:09   is really a mass market Apple keynote.

01:39:12   - Yeah, I mean, they're streaming it on their website,

01:39:14   the whole Apple Music thing.

01:39:16   - This, again, purely, completely pulled out of my ass,

01:39:19   but it's just in terms of knowing

01:39:21   what some of the weak spots in Swift currently are.

01:39:24   I know that debugging is a real weak spot.

01:39:26   It has nothing like the apparatus that Objective-C has for debugging.

01:39:31   So if they added awesome, amazing leaps ahead of Objective-C debugging, again, this might

01:39:40   make the general press who are there watching the keynote be like, "I don't know what that

01:39:45   means."

01:39:46   But it's going to make the developers and the audience go nuts.

01:39:48   They did a pretty good job with that last year of trying to spin the developer-oriented

01:39:53   announcements through consumer focus.

01:39:55   So like when they had the whole developer portion of the keynote, they really focused

01:39:59   on high level stuff such as like the Touch ID API.

01:40:03   Media could understand that.

01:40:05   But in like the cool graphics they showed with the Swift demo.

01:40:09   So what else with iOS 9?

01:40:10   New keyboard, better legacy device port.

01:40:15   What have you heard about that?

01:40:16   Now that's something that I guess you've reported on that they're targeting A5 devices.

01:40:22   Right.

01:40:23   So when they traditionally created a new iOS update, they would test all the features and

01:40:29   all the devices they wanted to support and then pick apart features that didn't work

01:40:34   well on the older hardware.

01:40:35   And that's kind of why older iPhones got bloated and stale and sluggish.

01:40:40   This year they're targeting at least the iPhone 4S and iPad mini specifically, to instead

01:40:47   of throwing all the features on those from iOS 9 and then picking it apart, they're adding

01:40:52   features one by one on top of the OS so on those older devices it should still

01:40:59   be much faster than even iOS 8 so I'd go as far as to say is iOS 9 will make

01:41:05   iPad minis iPhone 4s on older OS's even faster so that sounds like common sense

01:41:14   like it just sounds like well duh but I there's no doubt if that's true that is

01:41:21   is a seriously different strategy that they've pursued

01:41:25   and in my opinion, extremely welcome.

01:41:29   I mean, for me personally, it's irrelevant

01:41:30   'cause I'm an idiot and I buy a new iPhone every year.

01:41:33   But as an observer of the company and as somebody who,

01:41:37   I always try to stay out of it,

01:41:40   like when family members are like,

01:41:41   well, should I get a new iPhone or what computer server?

01:41:43   And I try to be like, ask somebody else.

01:41:46   Because I feel like it's like you break it, you bought it.

01:41:48   Like you tell them to buy a MacBook Air

01:41:50   and then you're on the hook for all the tech support

01:41:52   going forward.

01:41:53   - Exactly.

01:41:54   - But I hear it, you know what I mean?

01:41:54   It's like, I don't know, I don't know,

01:41:56   what do you say to somebody who is like,

01:41:58   you know, like somebody in your family who's like,

01:42:02   I don't know, my iPhone said it had an update

01:42:04   and I said okay, and then 10 minutes later

01:42:07   and now my iPhone is slow.

01:42:08   And it's like, well that sucks.

01:42:11   - They're gonna need to spend some time

01:42:12   changing the narrative on that.

01:42:13   Because even the people who don't follow Apple closely,

01:42:16   there is this narrative going around

01:42:18   like the mass market that iPhone updates screw with your phone. People don't want to update

01:42:23   and so I think with this WWDC they're going to have to step back and really promote the new

01:42:29   US as being a big quality and performance leap and I think that's exactly what they're going to do.

01:42:33   Yeah and I think that that's one of those things where Apple gets and and it's this the the recent

01:42:40   you know, thawing in the post-Katy Cotton PR apple, you know, and the sort of, you know,

01:42:49   maybe you wouldn't call them open, but they're opener than they were, that they're sort of

01:42:55   trying to get past that, which is that in the past it was very easy to mistake their complete

01:43:03   and utter silence for ambivalence. Whereas they might care very deeply about something,

01:43:10   but they're still not going to say anything. And you can't, how can you tell from the outside?

01:43:13   And I think that that's one, this might be one of those things where they've been, they're

01:43:19   aware of the criticism, they're aware of the problem, not just the criticism, but they're

01:43:23   aware that it's a legitimate problem and now they're doing something about it.

01:43:26   Right. And they were of course aware of this before, you know, it was written about. Like

01:43:31   I know you were one of the first people to really highlight the the bugs right earlier this year in iOS 8

01:43:36   You know some talking about that, but you know of course

01:43:39   Engineers have been pushing for a step back like this for a while, but you know Apple's really governed by marketing right so

01:43:47   No, well and perception you know right?

01:43:50   While we're on that subject what about this whole crazy discovery do you think?

01:44:00   Have you heard anything about that?

01:44:03   Jared: Yeah.

01:44:04   Uh, yes, I did hear something about that.

01:44:07   The backstory, but I don't remember what I was told.

01:44:12   Something about it being a mistake that wasn't the plan initially.

01:44:17   I don't know, I have to go back and look, but I know that they knew this was a problem

01:44:21   and they wanted to fix it.

01:44:22   What have you heard while I try to think about this?

01:44:25   Well, I rehashing a little bit from last week's show with Renee, but it's what I've heard is that

01:44:31   it's become a whipping boy internally and as it is a it is a bad piece of software at the moment now

01:44:39   that doesn't mean it's unfixable. It just means it shouldn't have shipped when it did. It should not

01:44:43   have replaced MDNS responder yet. And the assumption that so many people had on the outside

01:44:49   was that, okay, clearly this piece of software, Discovery-D, is buggy. But they must have

01:44:56   shipped it because these continuity features must have depended on it. And these continuity

01:45:02   features were a tent pole, so they had to ship Discovery-D when they did Ready or Not.

01:45:06   And then it turns out that the third party people, the hacker crowd who figured out,

01:45:12   If you put in mDNS responder from Mac OS 10.8 or 10.9

01:45:20   and

01:45:23   disabled discovery D everything still works and

01:45:25   the bugs from discovery D go away and your printer doesn't disappear after a week and your Apple TV doesn't get renamed Apple TV 3

01:45:32   And again, like I said to Renee, I would never recommend that that I'm too old for that

01:45:36   That's the sort of you know, following advice like that is the sort of stuff

01:45:38   That's a young man's game in my opinion, but it turns out with the the latest, you know

01:45:45   That's exactly what Apple has done now for you know in a more official format and with more rigorous

01:45:50   You know QA and stuff like that

01:45:51   But more or less they've just taken out and which raises the question of how to if it wasn't needed for those continuity features

01:45:57   How how did discovery D get through in the first place? So yeah, I just remembered

01:46:01   Similar to what you said

01:46:04   What I heard was that the guy in charge of the mDNS

01:46:09   responder left Apple or retired or was moved off the project and then the airport hardware team and the airport utility

01:46:16   software team somehow

01:46:19   Inherited that whole infrastructure and they made the change because they weren't under great direction

01:46:24   And then when stuff hit the fan about that earlier this year, then they realized they had to change it back with

01:46:31   The software right and I again, I don't know anything about the internals of MDNS responder and discovery D

01:46:37   But I can imagine though that maybe MDNS maybe there's like a theory that MDNS responder is old code. It's been there forever

01:46:44   Maybe I don't know who knows maybe it even dates back to the next era

01:46:47   And it's built up over time and is therefore sort of an ugly ugly

01:46:52   But it works type thing and that discovery D was hey, let's start all over and make something beautiful and modern and elegant

01:47:01   And, you know, a lot of times those things that sound like a good idea that involve let's

01:47:06   start over or not, and turn out not being good ideas.

01:47:10   That's my guess as to what happened is that somebody looked at MDNS responders code and

01:47:14   thought this is a mess, it's too big, it's convoluted, we can replace this with something

01:47:20   smaller and more elegant.

01:47:21   And if it had worked, it would have been a great idea and the problem is that it didn't.

01:47:27   But I have heard though that internally though that it became a whipping boy and took on,

01:47:32   internally was deemed as being largely responsible for this whole, hey, Yosemite is an unstable

01:47:39   release of the OS.

01:47:42   And that instead internally it was chalked up to, it's not Yosemite's problem, it's

01:47:46   Discovery D's problem.

01:47:48   And that politically, you know, you don't really want to be the guy in charge of Discovery

01:47:51   D right now.

01:47:52   (laughs)

01:47:54   Yeah, we'll see if they come out on stage and--

01:47:57   - It's funny because we're not him.

01:48:00   - Right, exactly.

01:48:01   We wouldn't be laughing.

01:48:04   - All right, let me take one last break.

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01:50:25   that my thanks to igloo all right what else we got before we sign off for the

01:50:30   for the episode new keyboard but I don't know much about that what do you what

01:50:35   have you heard I don't know anything about it nothing not a call you how to

01:50:39   just change yeah hopefully just a fixed shift key that's their fixed shift key yeah yeah it's it's

01:50:46   funny but like the the dns guy or discovery d guy it's not funny for them they did fix it a little

01:50:55   bit i find that the whatever they did when they made it go white i guess they fixed it and they

01:50:59   broke it they fixed it again yeah i still don't know why they don't just make it blue yeah like

01:51:06   Like the blue to me, like I just don't get that

01:51:09   because to me when the arrow went blue

01:51:12   when shift was engaged, it was so unambiguous

01:51:15   that nobody, I never even had to think about it.

01:51:18   It's like I never even, in the early years of iOS,

01:51:20   it never even occurred to me that there was something

01:51:22   to think about there.

01:51:23   - Right, exactly.

01:51:24   - Like and to me that's the hallmark of all good design

01:51:26   is all good design, it took tons of good thinking

01:51:29   and tons of work and prototypes to result in a thing

01:51:32   that when you use it, looks like it wasn't designed at all.

01:51:35   - Yeah.

01:51:35   Whereas the iOS 7 shift key screamed I was designed by somebody who thought they were

01:51:46   very clever.

01:51:49   Now I haven't heard anything about new keyboard.

01:51:50   I haven't heard that much honestly.

01:51:52   I don't really know much.

01:51:55   I know everything I know comes from you Mark.

01:51:57   Well I'm happy to hear that.

01:51:58   I hope I'm all right.

01:52:01   I think you're pretty good.

01:52:02   We should talk though before we go.

01:52:03   talk to rap the show unless you have something else for wwdc um i mean we didn't really talk

01:52:08   about the apple music stuff but that's uh pretty straightforward i guess yeah and that stuff leaks

01:52:13   like a sieve because the the media companies in general are blabbermouths like the tv companies

01:52:20   but the music companies are the worst the music companies it's like you can practically it's like

01:52:26   eddie q isn't even out the door and they're calling people in the media to talk about the

01:52:30   meeting that they just had yeah yeah or he's at a Warriors game and they're sitting right next to him

01:52:35   i still i still i cannot wait to see if he's at the game sunday night yeah

01:52:42   if you don't have anything else though i would just you know just briefly let's go back a couple

01:52:50   months and talk about the the big feature profile you wrote i guess it was last year on apple pr

01:52:57   Okay. Which was, I thought, you know, and there was, I have to admit, when you wrote it,

01:53:05   there, you know, behind the scenes, you know, in my world, there, it definitely raised a lot

01:53:10   of discussion. And the consensus, it was that you were half right, and a lot of it in ways that

01:53:18   nobody had ever written about before, which is mainly because Apple PR doesn't want you writing

01:53:24   about the way Apple PR works. And there is a little bit of you gotta play ball and you don't,

01:53:31   you know, almost every interaction that I have with Apple PR is off the record, not for attribution,

01:53:38   whatever you want to call it. And so therefore, writing about those machinations would therefore

01:53:44   be a violation of what I've agreed to and therefore I don't write about it. I'm not hiding it, it's,

01:53:50   you know, it is what it is. And if I felt otherwise, then I wouldn't agree to it in the first place.

01:53:55   And a lot of the stuff that you wrote about in your piece was accurate in that way. Then there

01:54:02   was a quarter of it, I would say, that was, I don't know. I don't even know what to say about it,

01:54:08   because I just don't know. Could be right, could be wrong. And then there was another quarter of

01:54:12   it, I would say, where I think you were wrong. So, which quarter of it? I don't remember

01:54:18   specifically if we talked about it or…?

01:54:19   Pete: Well, I think that your take on how they do review units was wrong.

01:54:28   Jared; Okay.

01:54:28   Pete; And obviously, this is a little bit self-serving. And so, you know,

01:54:33   both you and anybody listening, feel free to take it, you know, with your eyes rolled or with a big

01:54:40   grain of salt because obviously it's, I don't want to come across as defensive, but you can

01:54:44   and obviously see how it might be.

01:54:47   But not to put words in your mouth or in your piece,

01:54:49   but the gist of it was that your take was that

01:54:52   they cede review units to known friendly outlets.

01:54:57   - That's fair to say, yeah.

01:55:00   - Right.

01:55:01   I don't think that's true, and in fact,

01:55:03   I can think of some counter examples

01:55:05   where they cede them to people who they, I think,

01:55:07   know are actually sort of not friendly.

01:55:10   And I would file, for example, The Verge under that.

01:55:13   I wouldn't say The Verge is hostile, and I know that The Verge is under – has the most bizarre

01:55:17   readership possible, where half of their readers think that they are in the bag for Apple,

01:55:23   and the other half think that they're the worst anti-Apple agitators on the entire Internet.

01:55:29   Pete: Right.

01:55:30   Ted, in the background.

01:55:30   And it's very bizarre to me. But I would say that The Verge, for example,

01:55:33   and I think to placate the half that thinks that they're in the bag for Apple, that The Verge

01:55:39   consistently bends over backwards to great Apple on a curve that doesn't apply to other devices and that if they

01:55:46   It's been it's my and the fact though that they still have top tier access to Apple review units is

01:55:53   Proved to me that they don't really

01:55:56   Seed out friendly reviewers. Well, I mean my response to that now

01:56:00   I don't want to say that I remember my discussions with whoever I talked to for these profiles

01:56:06   However long ago this was six seven eight nine months ago, but if I remember correctly

01:56:11   Apple stopped giving the virtual view units. They did there was the one

01:56:15   That is true and it was so I don't think that counterexample is completely valid just to be it's it's a good point

01:56:23   That's an excellent point. I forget when it was. I'm

01:56:26   90% sure

01:56:29   Topolsky was still there and if I believe I think it was two years ago. You should have asked him last week

01:56:35   Yeah, I should have I forgot about it. I think it was two

01:56:38   Two years ago that they didn't get early access to the phone

01:56:43   right and then they but they did get day before access and

01:56:48   So see there's different tiers, right?

01:56:51   There's the right after the keynote or a couple weeks in advance

01:56:54   Which I believe that you've been traditionally a part of the last few years

01:56:58   all right, then there's the day before day of or a couple days before and

01:57:04   Then there's the review units given after the products available. That's correct. I think that there are three tiers one

01:57:11   And and to my knowledge, there's nobody

01:57:14   nobody on the nobody is on a

01:57:18   Pre-keynote tier even Mossberg

01:57:22   Who I would think would if anybody would be it would be Mossberg and I think right?

01:57:27   pogue post New York Times is I think you know, he still gets he's still on tier one, but I I

01:57:34   Think everybody would agree that since he's gone to Yahoo. He's lost a bit of relevancy

01:57:38   Yeah, I don't want to speak negatively

01:57:42   Right. It's it's all catty and inside baseball, but it's right, you know

01:57:47   Just being trying to be as honest as I can. I think Mossberg is the only one it's not like it used to be

01:57:52   right it used to be that Mossberg pogue edbeg and

01:57:57   Steven Levy while he was still at Newsweek that they're the four who got the iPhone and nobody else got the iPhone before the iPhone came

01:58:04   out

01:58:06   That there were only four reviewers who mattered and the world has changed greatly since then and Apple PR's

01:58:12   Perspective on this stuff has changed greatly since then but as of right now, I think you're correct that there's three tiers post keynote

01:58:20   day or two before which I think is

01:58:23   Largely the reason it's like a day or two. Is that

01:58:27   to my knowledge

01:58:30   And again, I could be I could be wrong about certain people but I've never heard of an exception

01:58:36   nobody ever gets a review unit of

01:58:38   Serious hardware something that that is worth being in a keynote. There are minor things that they might ship to reviewers

01:58:45   But if it's a flagship new product, the only way you can get a review unit is to have a product briefing with Apple

01:58:51   sure, where they give you know, they give it to you by hand and

01:58:55   Tell you in a put in a one-to-one or one-to-two, you know, whatever meeting

01:59:00   You know what they think about it and what their main points are about it and therefore with an expanded

01:59:08   Like I got the impression and I don't know when everybody got Apple watches

01:59:12   But I got the impression that like the second tier for the Apple watch was spread over two or three days

01:59:17   because I think they gave them to so many people that there was no way that they could do it all like

01:59:22   two days before the watch came out like

01:59:24   April 22nd some of the people got April 23rd because there just aren't that isn't that way to meet that many people with a briefing

01:59:31   When did you get yours a week before?

01:59:33   Yeah, like a week and a half before okay. Is that early a week and a half?

01:59:40   It's normal for most products a lot of the time you could there's no

01:59:45   The I don't even have to be secret I get with a watch

01:59:48   I don't think I I think of the NDA I signed I can't say exactly when I got a business roughly a week and a half

01:59:53   With most products. There's a keynote, right? So for example

01:59:58   When the phones come out

02:00:01   There's a keynote you get your review unit after the keynote in a product briefing and then the embargo is always like

02:00:10   Wednesday I always I actually miss that I don't know but the products are you

02:00:14   don't follow those riders you you wait till I try to I try my best mark I do

02:00:19   the embargo is usually like Wednesday like like 48 hours before they go on

02:00:26   sale on Friday or the pre-ordered one start shipping so like a Monday keynote

02:00:31   or a Tuesday keynote with a Wednesday embargo the next day you know usually

02:00:35   it's usually they're like eight or nine day periods yeah and I think that some I

02:00:39   I don't even, I'd have to look at a calendar,

02:00:41   but I think that the watch review units

02:00:44   were eight or nine days, which felt way too short.

02:00:48   It felt to me like I had the watch for two days.

02:00:51   It was crazy.

02:00:52   - Like I have my watch here.

02:00:53   It took time to get used to it,

02:00:55   to wanna wear it, to wanna use it, you know?

02:00:57   So.

02:00:58   - I've said before, and I'll say it again,

02:00:59   hardest review I've ever written.

02:01:01   And I think it stands up,

02:01:03   and I'm pretty proud of what I wrote,

02:01:04   but it's the pieces I wrote later in the month,

02:01:07   I think are way more relevant.

02:01:09   And years from now when I look back

02:01:11   at what I thought of the original Apple Watch,

02:01:13   it's the further pieces I wrote weeks later

02:01:17   I think are more telling.

02:01:19   - I think Apple did it themselves a disservice,

02:01:22   waiting until that short before the launch

02:01:24   to give it to their viewers,

02:01:25   but maybe that has to do with the software not being ready.

02:01:29   - Yeah, I really am not sure about that.

02:01:31   And I wonder how much they went back and forth on that.

02:01:33   And I think that they knew.

02:01:35   In fact, just talking to people at Apple,

02:01:38   I know that they knew that it takes time

02:01:42   to really get that, you know,

02:01:44   to acclimate it to your life.

02:01:48   Like it really doesn't kick in

02:01:50   until you stop thinking about it, honestly.

02:01:52   And I know that sounds stupid, but it's, I think,

02:01:55   everybody I know who has one agrees

02:01:56   that it's when you stop thinking about it

02:01:59   that it really starts hitting you.

02:02:01   And you're like, you know what, I am walking a lot more,

02:02:04   you know, and stuff like that.

02:02:06   Anyway though, I, in my experience, and who knows,

02:02:10   I don't think that they seed out

02:02:16   known to be friendly reviewers.

02:02:19   I think that they'd look for, and again,

02:02:22   this is gonna sound self-serving for me,

02:02:23   but I think they look in general for reviewers

02:02:26   who are A, have a big following,

02:02:31   and that they're gonna write, you know,

02:02:33   get into tier one you have to have a certain amount of influence and so I'm weird because I

02:02:38   don't have a large audience but I think that they consider the Daring Fireball audience to be

02:02:43   influential. Again, this sounds terribly self-serving and I'm blushing as I say it but I

02:02:51   don't like talking about myself like this but I don't think they look for a positive review. I

02:02:55   think they look generally for people who are going to get it, who are getting what it is that they're

02:03:00   they're going after.

02:03:01   And I never get notes after I write my reviews, never.

02:03:06   Not a word from them about anything.

02:03:09   Honestly, I really think that they just want reviewers

02:03:15   to be fair.

02:03:16   That's to me the main thing that they're after.

02:03:18   And the thing that makes this all so hard to judge

02:03:23   is that for the last decade,

02:03:28   but at least in the time that I've been doing it,

02:03:31   it's been an unbelievable string of very good products.

02:03:36   And I've done this occasionally.

02:03:37   I've looked back at old reviews of things

02:03:39   like what I wrote about, you know,

02:03:42   like the Verizon iPhone or iPhone 4S and stuff like that,

02:03:49   and did what I write hold up,

02:03:51   or was I excited because it was new?

02:03:53   And I've, so far, I have not found one

02:03:55   where I felt like I missed the mark.

02:03:57   And even looking at people who've been doing it longer

02:03:59   than I have, like in rereading, like say,

02:04:02   David Pogue's original review of the iPhone in 2007

02:04:05   and stuff like that, I don't think that these reviews

02:04:08   were positive just for the sake of being positive.

02:04:10   I think almost all of them were spot on.

02:04:12   And in fact, some of them, especially like the Mossberg ones,

02:04:17   I think sometimes bend over backwards to emphasize things

02:04:20   that just weren't that big a deal, like devoting time

02:04:24   in a 2007 review of the iPhone to talk about

02:04:27   it doesn't have a hardware keyboard like a blackberry which actually looked bad it was

02:04:31   like wow here's the cons you know a blackberry has a hardware keyboard you can type faster

02:04:34   on it and what about the map stuff a lot of people missed the the maps problems in their

02:04:40   iphone 5 reviews i don't remember yours in particular i don't remember that either siri

02:04:46   as well siri is not a great product at launch but people seem to have missed some of the

02:04:53   lack of functionality or accuracy there. The iPhone 4 antenna, I mean I know that's a

02:04:59   subject that we can spend another two hours on, but a lot of people miss that.

02:05:04   Yeah, I think Siri's a good example. I remember with maps in particular, I think, I remember

02:05:09   thinking I missed the boat on that because I don't think I said anything one way or

02:05:12   the other, but part of it was that in the course of my testing, I didn't go anywhere.

02:05:16   And I was at home in Philadelphia and their maps in Philadelphia as far as I did test

02:05:21   them were pretty good. And it really seemed like the bigger problems with the initial

02:05:27   1.0 maps weren't so much in major metropolitan areas, but just about everywhere else.

02:05:32   That's fair, yeah.

02:05:33   And the driving turn-by-turn directions, I don't drive most days. But again, that doesn't

02:05:39   necessarily – I'm not saying that that means I'm above blame. I mean, it was a – I

02:05:44   would rather – my goal is always to be right, and I want my reviews to – I want my reviews

02:05:50   like when people look back at them in 10 years to be like well he really nailed it and I think it's hard to say for the

02:05:56   So what was that? I was six. Yes iPhone 5. Yep

02:06:01   It's hard to say that a review of iPhone the iOS 6 and iPhone 5 that if it didn't mention

02:06:08   Maps and the problems that it had that it's accurate in the long term

02:06:12   But I don't think people avoided it trying to curry favor with Apple PR. I I don't I can't say that for everybody

02:06:18   But I really don't I I've never felt pressure like that at all from from Apple, right? I

02:06:24   Really don't think so. But the tell is going to be

02:06:28   When the day comes that Apple releases a product that is not that good

02:06:33   That's well the iPhone 5 and the Maps thing is a pretty good indicator there. But

02:06:39   Yeah, but the iPhone 5 itself was actually a pretty it was a great device

02:06:43   Yeah, but I mean maps was part of that Siri Siri was the iPhone 4s main feature really

02:06:50   Yeah

02:06:52   We'll see. We'll see

02:06:54   I don't know. I just think that I just you know again

02:06:59   I think it was an interesting piece and I will absolutely positively put this one in the show notes

02:07:04   I'm making a note to myself right now because anybody who hasn't read it

02:07:07   You certainly can go back and nobody has ever written anything like this before or since

02:07:11   because I kind of get the sense that you've got a fuck it I don't care what they think attitude

02:07:17   towards them. Like I don't think that you were trying to antagonize anybody with this article.

02:07:20   I know not at all. This was about more so so I never had access like I mean you admit to having

02:07:29   off the record conversations with them. I mean I've never had all sorts of access. This started

02:07:34   as sort of a research project to understand how they operate and why they operate this way

02:07:41   in order so I could better understand my work, my future work, what I've done in the past.

02:07:45   But in terms of that attitude, it doesn't really stem from an attitude. It stems from not having

02:07:50   anything to lose. I have no relationship to lose. I feel that my work is so much better off being

02:07:58   independent, me doing what I want, how I get to spread information, not having to fear that Apple's

02:08:05   maybe not going to give me a review unit or talk to me if I say something or position something or

02:08:10   break something. You know, the day that I, you know, work with a company on a story and

02:08:16   get it out there from their angles, the day that I don't want to do this anymore because

02:08:20   I'm very happy with the way that I do my work and how I do it my way. It's not a "screw

02:08:26   it" type of thing that's published this. It's more of a "that's just my mindset, how I like

02:08:31   working independently."

02:08:32   Pete: Yeah, my perspective on it is so weird because I never really expected that I would

02:08:38   be in this position because when I started during Fireball, it was 2002 and it was before

02:08:47   the Apple stuff was even that big of a deal, right?

02:08:51   Like iPods came out at little miniature events in town hall and stuff like that.

02:08:57   And then the iPhone came out and it was so big and such a huge deal, but they were reviewing

02:09:02   it.

02:09:03   Like I said, only went to four people.

02:09:07   I'd built this whole thing up and turned it into you know something that I could call a career and

02:09:12   it was successful all without any of that and in all the ways that it was successful before I had

02:09:18   any kind of you know access to apple pr uh it's still the same way so like if I stopped getting

02:09:27   I've said this you know uh you know like Jim Dowell and I have talked about it like I never have any

02:09:32   assumption that I'm getting any future and I know this sounds like I'm now it

02:09:36   sounds like I'm being falsely humble but honestly like I don't if I had to bet I

02:09:43   guess I'll get the iPhone 6s come September but if I don't if like the

02:09:49   call doesn't come and you know and I there's no brief there's no briefing

02:09:54   after the keynote I'll be like well I don't know I must have I don't know I

02:09:58   don't know what happened there but must have had mark on my podcast too many

02:10:01   - Yeah, maybe, maybe it's 'cause I had you on my podcast.

02:10:04   I don't know, but it's not gonna hurt,

02:10:06   it's not gonna hurt my revenue at all.

02:10:08   Like I don't have any kind of ad, you know,

02:10:11   I do get a lot of hits on the reviews when they come out.

02:10:14   - Sure.

02:10:15   - But the deck ads don't go by page count.

02:10:18   It's, you know, and by design,

02:10:21   like I don't wanna have articles like that.

02:10:24   I don't wanna have articles where I make more money

02:10:26   if they get read more.

02:10:28   - Right.

02:10:29   - Just for one thing.

02:10:30   if it dries up, it dries up, you know, or if, you know, if somebody leaves, somebody who's like a big

02:10:35   fan of me in Apple PR is the reason I'm getting these things, and then they quit and take a job

02:10:39   somewhere else and I stop getting them, so be it. Clearly wasn't Katie Cotton. I'm just kidding.

02:10:44   I guess not. I don't know about when she left. I was blown away that she even knew who I was,

02:10:50   but she was always very nice to me. I have no idea what she was like in private, though.

02:10:54   Clearly, though, strategically, she had a different vision for Apple PR, and that's the

02:10:59   That's the other reason I wanted to bring it up that you wrote about this.

02:11:02   I kind of feel like your piece serves as, well, definitive is the wrong word because

02:11:08   I do think that there are gaps.

02:11:09   And I don't see how you could have filled them in.

02:11:11   This is the thing.

02:11:12   I don't mean this as like, "Hey, you could have done a better job."

02:11:13   I almost feel like it's remarkable how much you got colored in.

02:11:21   But I kind of feel like it was a kind of amazing timing coming at the end of the Katie Cotton

02:11:27   era you know because clearly strategically apple pr has has taken a strategic turn since then right

02:11:33   and in this story i know i talked about like who would replace katie cotton and i said it would be

02:11:37   steve dowling and all indications are pointing to him instead of carris who was still at apple at

02:11:42   the time and you know i got a lot of you know criticism privately saying how could you say that

02:11:48   there's no way that's true and all that but you know look at the pr bios page now so oh my my

02:11:54   impression and I again I it's funny because I have like an official relationship with apple PR that

02:12:00   you don't have but like my unofficial you know back channel input into the way apple PR works is

02:12:09   way cloudier than yours for sure like there were names that you had that I'd never heard of

02:12:13   and stuff that you know asking around you know people like yeah yeah that's that's pretty

02:12:18   accurate that I'd never heard of. But my sense from the outside was that it was,

02:12:25   I'm almost surprised they didn't name Dowling sooner and my guess, I could be wrong, I could be

02:12:33   so totally wrong here that it's, there's people at Apple who, you know, who are just laughing if

02:12:38   they're listening to this. But my sense was that the delay in naming Dowling was simply out of

02:12:42   of respect to Katie that her departure was not it was amicable it was we're

02:12:48   gonna you know I think she had been there a long time I think she was ready

02:12:51   for a break and I think Tim Cook was looking for a new direction but it

02:12:54   wasn't like bad blood it wasn't like she was pushed out the door like forestall

02:12:58   and therefore out of respect they didn't name a successor right away you know I

02:13:03   honestly disagree with that okay I could be wrong no no I don't think that it was

02:13:08   as bad blood as the Vorsal situation because you know they talked massive crap about him after the

02:13:15   after his departure you didn't see any of that with cotton but I don't think it was amicable in

02:13:20   any sense of the word. All right amicable but you're right all right I yeah I think we're in

02:13:25   agreement here right I think we'd be in the middle but yeah I think the reason they didn't

02:13:30   even Dowling how about respectful sure he was respectable that's very fair to say yeah she

02:13:35   I'm still got like I don't know if severance is the right word but like advisor status or something right stock options

02:13:43   But I think that they wanted to find

02:13:46   like a cool

02:13:48   big name

02:13:50   Replacement for Katie cotton like they can make a splash with take the company a new friendlier direction

02:13:54   There were those rumors of Jay Carney the White House guy, but they didn't find anyone better. So I think they waited

02:14:02   Six months nine months and they didn't find anyone that they would think would be better

02:14:06   So they named Dowling and they're gonna go through him

02:14:08   My only thing about that and I thought about that but and again, I don't know but the only

02:14:15   Thing about that that I can think of is I can't think of another big splashy name other than Jay Carney

02:14:20   Yeah, who else?

02:14:22   Maybe someone from a startup or something like the weird the weird world of PR in general. Is that?

02:14:30   PR people stay under the radar. Yeah, you know and that there aren't you know, like maybe like inside baseball

02:14:37   There's big names and if you work in PR, you'd be like wow, they got so-and-so

02:14:41   But from the outside Jay Carney who was the you know, the White House

02:14:45   Press what do they call his press secretary?

02:14:48   Is the only big name that I even saw tossed about as a maybe and that certainly would have been a big get but other

02:14:55   Than him I can't think of anybody else who it would have even been

02:14:57   Yeah, I don't know but they I guess it would be fair to say like they did their due diligence

02:15:02   Try to find someone new from out of the company. It wouldn't be a great move to just promote

02:15:07   Steve Dowling without looking elsewhere first they need to be tactical about these types of things especially

02:15:13   Exiting a regime that existed for 15 years

02:15:16   Yeah, and I think the other thing too that you just it

02:15:22   Just cannot be emphasized enough was how much that Katie cotton and Steve Jobs were like had like the symbiotic

02:15:30   Relationship. Yeah that that she was as much Steve Jobs as press representative as she was apples

02:15:36   and that it that's not necessarily a bad thing because they were

02:15:41   You know Steve Jobs and Apple were so intertwined in the public eye. Yeah

02:15:45   Like she even did all the press stuff for when Steve Jobs

02:15:49   sold

02:15:51   Pixar and Disney. That wasn't Apple, but that was Steve.

02:15:55   Pete: Right. And according to the Becoming Steve Jobs book, she was one of only four Apple people

02:16:02   who were at his private funeral.

02:16:04   Matthew: Right. Her, Q, Cook, and who was the fourth one?

02:16:11   Pete; Johnny.

02:16:11   Matthew; Johnny, of course, Johnny. No Forrestal.

02:16:14   Pete; Yeah. And no Schiller, no, I mean, there's all sorts of people who clearly worked with him a

02:16:20   a long time but it was a very very short list. You overlooked Johnny because it was so obvious.

02:16:24   Right right right. I saw that though I don't think the the book broke that as great as the book was

02:16:28   I read it in your uh your post-it was great but I thought that was I thought that was I thought

02:16:33   that was news because his family you know the private family thing was so so private.

02:16:39   No yeah but I remember reading that in the journal back when 2011 or so.

02:16:45   I believe well I could be wrong but I didn't know.

02:16:47   I

02:16:49   Before we go while we're still on the subject of Katie

02:16:55   when I interviewed

02:16:58   Brent

02:16:59   Schlender and Bruce Tedcini

02:17:01   Pretend that's Ellie the authors of becoming Steve Jobs when I did the event at the Apple Store in New York a couple months ago

02:17:09   I did a little you know interview with them in front of the crowd. I

02:17:16   Asked them because they did get I forget who the list of people who were associated with Apple who they got interviews with

02:17:22   But it's you know, there's Tim Cook

02:17:24   Avi you know who's not there anymore, but but you know clearly, you know

02:17:31   Had the permission from Apple to talk to them and Katie and so they had like a whole sit-down interview with Katie cotton

02:17:38   And there's one sentence from her in the book

02:17:40   And they but I asked about it and they both laughed

02:17:45   and and the gist was that you know you could take Katie Cotton out of Apple but

02:17:51   it doesn't change her take on the press like she gave them nothing that's funny

02:17:56   that is funny it was like one sentence and it was like totally innocuous well

02:18:03   anyway we've been going on long enough this has been great I think that

02:18:06   everybody is now well prepared for WWDC Mark Gurman I thank you I will link to

02:18:13   Probably the best thing I can link to is your pre WWDC wrap-up posts because you keep updating that right

02:18:19   No, we posted a new one this morning. That's one post that has everything. All right, I will link to that in the show notes

02:18:26   And then if anything breaks over the weekend, you'll update that same post. Yes. All right, that's great

02:18:32   And people can read you regularly. I'm sure they already do they can either read you at the two places

02:18:38   You can find mark at nine to five mac.com or at the top of tech meme

02:18:43   I think that they have a new ratings thing at tech meme and I believe you came out on top was is this am I?

02:18:53   Overstating it. No. No, that's right. And they have a section about you in the Q&A. Did you see? Yeah, I did

02:18:59   I honest to god. I'm not bullshit. Yeah, I don't know that words pretty funny. Yeah. Yeah, what's it? Where does it say this?

02:19:05   on that new leaderboard page, there's a question they did like a FAQ and

02:19:09   The sample question is why I love John Gruber

02:19:13   Why is he not on the top of the list and then they have like a whole answer about how?

02:19:17   You stick to analysis of other new stories and that doesn't really fit in with tech memes

02:19:22   Tech memes position her goal. I honest to God did not know that now I got to put this on the goddamn show notes

02:19:29   There's a fact you got to send me the link. I can't find it about these lists

02:19:33   Is it the blog post about it? You know what? It's probably the blog post. Yeah, I think they linked the blog posts on the site

02:19:41   I don't know. Yeah

02:19:43   Holy shit, there it is. Yeah, I did not see that

02:19:48   Here's the answer it says I love John Gruber, he's great. Why isn't he on your leadership leaderboard?

02:19:55   Although he's in the top 150

02:19:57   He's not in the top hundred and we only show the top 100 while his posts that make tech meme do tend to be heavily

02:20:02   cited in the tech world, they don't appear there too often. Just twice in the last 90 days, in part

02:20:07   because he mostly posts links with short commentary, which doesn't work well for Techmeme. That's

02:20:13   exactly what I've, I've never really worried about this because I've always thought it was exactly

02:20:17   right. I've talked to Gabe about this. I met Gabe years ago at like an O'Reilly conference, the guy,

02:20:22   you know, the guy behind Techmeme. And we talked about years ago about how I'm like an exception

02:20:28   who doesn't fit into the tech meme thing. But I said, you know, I don't break news. That's what

02:20:32   this is about is I get, you know, doesn't bother me at all. I don't expect to be there. I expect

02:20:37   to link to people who are there. Like, that's fascinating. I did not realize that I was listed

02:20:44   there. The next question. I hate TechCrunch. They're jerks. Why is TechCrunch number one on

02:20:51   the publication leaderboard? Oh, that's great. I got to send that to Panzareno. That is fantastic.

02:20:57   What a great question. I'm so glad they so glad they answered my question. You know, he's doing a great job there math

02:21:04   He really is he's absolutely doing a great job there

02:21:07   He broke that the Tim Tim Cook

02:21:11   epic bright the privacy speech

02:21:14   I think that would accept that was gonna come out no matter what but somehow he was on the ball and had that before

02:21:19   Before the recording even came out, yeah

02:21:24   All right, so nine to five Mac that's where mark is kicking ass as an Apple reporter who?

02:21:31   Really doesn't give a crap what Apple thinks of them

02:21:34   All for the better for the rest of us. I really do mean it. I think you're doing great work and like I've said

02:21:39   Talking about you on these podcasts the last few weeks. I

02:21:43   Here's the most amazing thing to me is I don't know where we would be without you

02:21:48   Well, I know where we'd be we'd be in the dark, you know

02:21:50   But it's absolutely astounding if somebody went around and assembled and I'm sure Mac rumors

02:21:55   well, like what's the consensus on what's coming at WWDC a

02:22:00   Remarkable majority of that information is is from you. So yeah, keep up keep up the good work. Thank you so much

02:22:08   I appreciate it. All right mark. Thank you very much for your time and

02:22:11   I'll see you after WWDC. Yep. I know that's a long long podcast, but people love them

02:22:19   I'm hitting stop.