The Talk Show

119: ‘Workin’ in Pajamas’ With Guest David Sparks


00:00:00   [laughs]

00:00:01   So this is the show, you know.

00:00:04   - All right.

00:00:05   - David Sparks, this is your first time on the talk show.

00:00:08   - I know, it's kind of exciting.

00:00:10   - It's very exciting.

00:00:11   This is the thing, this is the problem.

00:00:13   I've been wanting to have you on for a long time.

00:00:14   And the reason I've put it off

00:00:17   is I feel like it's gonna take the entire episode

00:00:19   just to tell people everything you do.

00:00:20   [laughs]

00:00:21   - Not a busy guy, John.

00:00:23   - What, you are prolific.

00:00:24   It's you and Renee Ritchie and Jason Sonnell make me sick.

00:00:28   I feel like I feel like I get to a Friday and I feel like you know

00:00:32   I recorded a podcast and I thought it was pretty good episode and I had one good article on daring fireball

00:00:37   I'm like, that's a good week

00:00:38   And then I look at like what what like something you guys do and snails on like 17 podcasts

00:00:42   He produces like 16 of them

00:00:45   you put out a book and

00:00:48   The screen cast and do a podcast and keep it and Renee, of course writes about seven or eight thousand words a week

00:00:56   The um that there's a I think it was the lonius monk at one point who said it's not the notes you play

00:01:03   It's the notes. You don't play. Oh, I don't know. So so you're like monk, you know, you're the guy

00:01:08   Anyway, the podcast you are referring to is your longtime show Mac power users

00:01:13   Which you co-host I believe from the outset with the wonderful Katie Floyd

00:01:18   Yep, and that is and it just moved this is and it's motivated me because I you know, somebody moves you move a show

00:01:26   the goddamn feed redirection it never works right it's it's terrifying it is

00:01:32   terrifying it's terrifying when you move a show because your your listeners are

00:01:36   subscribed to your feed best thing in the world is when someone subscribes to

00:01:39   your podcast because they're making a little bit of a commitment and then when

00:01:42   you do your next episode that you're getting it pushed to them when they open

00:01:47   their podcast app of choice or maybe their podcast app pulls it down

00:01:50   automatically but there it is and that's great and yeah I know there's people who

00:01:53   don't who listen who don't subscribe who just wait and see if it sounds like a

00:01:57   good episode and then they just hit play and that's great to love listeners but

00:02:00   subscribers are the best because subscribers give you consistency from

00:02:04   week to week and then when you move networks or you just even if you don't

00:02:08   even move networks if you just do something behind the seeds where you

00:02:12   change from you know WordPress to Squarespace or you know something like

00:02:16   that you have to change the feed something always goes wrong and so yeah

00:02:20   it's always a you know my want to help people when they do stuff like that and

00:02:23   and get people to, you know, hey, double check

00:02:25   if you were subscribed to MacPowerUsers,

00:02:28   go to the new site.

00:02:29   Now the new site is, you're over there on the relay.

00:02:33   - Yeah, we're actually shutting down.

00:02:35   We've had macpowerusers.com since the beginning,

00:02:37   which is kind of funny.

00:02:38   That's back in like 2008, 2009,

00:02:41   when we were starting the show,

00:02:42   we were trying to pick the name of a show

00:02:43   and you just search websites.

00:02:45   Oh, MacPowerUsers is available, that's a good name.

00:02:47   So we're actually shutting down the .com.

00:02:49   We're gonna forward it over to everything at relay.

00:02:52   got a nice system over there so it's gonna be great where you want to go and you want to listen

00:02:56   to the show and we'll talk about a little bit more too but it's relay.fm slash mpu yeah or or type

00:03:02   mac power users.com it'll get you there okay so um really it's the first good show on relay yeah

00:03:09   well that's what i think i don't i don't know how these guys got by without me quite frankly i don't

00:03:15   understand either um i think they're getting by on the you know the british accent thing i know it

00:03:21   makes it sound you know he's not really British you know he's born in New Jersey

00:03:25   that's what I heard too and he just likes he likes to pronounce H funny you

00:03:29   know and and people like that so they're in yeah and you know his name isn't

00:03:34   really spelled with a Y he made that up too it's also some kind of big iPhone

00:03:39   cult I'm starting to realize did you when did you say to you and Katie

00:03:46   started MacPower users? 2009. So that's interesting. That's interesting. In 2009

00:03:52   you still chose a name that started with Mac. Yeah, well that was kind of the idea.

00:03:58   It's kind of a "I don't know who cares about this stuff," but the... Oh, I care.

00:04:03   I like to go... Everybody was telling us. We were thinking about, you know, doing a podcast

00:04:06   together and everybody... we were at Macworld and I was like, "Don't do it." You know,

00:04:10   everything that can be said about a podcast has been said, and they're kind

00:04:14   right, you know, they're like, well, MacBreak Weekly does the news and such and such. And I'm

00:04:17   like, you know, I don't want to do something everybody else does. So we decided, well,

00:04:21   let's just not do it. And we talked for like four or five months about, you know, what would we do.

00:04:26   And ultimately I said, I want to make a show that just talks about one thing a show. It doesn't have

00:04:31   anything to do with news, just talks about how do you get better at email or how do you get better

00:04:34   at this or that. And Katie's like, that's a great idea. It's good for like 10 shows and we'll be

00:04:40   done. I said well then we'll make ten really good shows. That was 2009 so and

00:04:44   it's worked out and you guys have just hit well at least and and for your

00:04:49   audience and probably my audience too it's it it counts as a round number you

00:04:53   just finished episode 255 yeah so now you're just about to enter your your

00:04:59   second bite yeah you need to bite integers now yeah I mean we're not

00:05:03   messing around and and you know what there's plenty if we've got stuff backed

00:05:07   up we have so much we want to talk about it's I don't know I love it and this is

00:05:11   like getting ready for this because you know I'm also a lawyer which is kind of

00:05:14   nuts and like I spent the whole morning doing lawyer stuff and just getting

00:05:17   ready for this call and like shutting down Microsoft Word and all the other

00:05:20   stuff that I do in that part of my life oh man it felt great yeah I love the

00:05:25   word power user I think that it like went full circle where in the early

00:05:32   years of the PC revolution when PCs were just growing growing growing I mean

00:05:36   That's to say 80s and 80s through the mid to late 90s.

00:05:41   Power User was used with no reservation in,

00:05:46   you know, Mac User, PC World, you know,

00:05:49   any of those magazines would talk about,

00:05:51   you know, tips for power users.

00:05:52   And I think everybody, it's nebulously defined

00:05:57   because it has to be.

00:05:58   There is no technical definition between, you know,

00:06:01   a somewhat informed user and a power user.

00:06:05   I think everybody, it fits a general loose description of somebody who's truly an enthusiast,

00:06:11   really does want to dig into some of the details, but probably falls short of being a developer,

00:06:18   someone who can write their own code, or at least if they do write code, it's more like Automator

00:06:23   and AppleScript and stuff like that.

00:06:25   Oh, it's absolutely aspirational for our show. And the ideal nerd in my head is John Syracuse.

00:06:35   And, and the show is not for John Siracusa. You know, we're not going to talk about programming

00:06:40   pro we're going to talk. I mean, a lot of our listeners, it's kind of weird because

00:06:43   our show has a big audience, but it's not the usual geeks listening to podcasts. I mean,

00:06:51   doctors, you know, business people, you know, single moms, people who just want to get better

00:06:55   at this stuff. So it's an interesting space we occupied.

00:07:00   Like somebody was telling me, I forget who, somebody had a dentist.

00:07:07   So their dentist, someone of my friends has a dentist, but he's like a nut for Macs.

00:07:11   And so he's always kept his practices, he does all the IT stuff for his practice and

00:07:16   has a couple, he's always been a Mac guy and writes his own file maker stuff for the, to

00:07:22   keep the practice and stuff like that.

00:07:24   But he's a dentist, that's his full-time thing.

00:07:26   he has made this little system of stuff that works exactly the way he needs it for his practice.

00:07:33   That's a power user. And there's a good chance he listens to our show.

00:07:37   It probably is. We have a lot of dentists. It's funny, we just have all walks of life,

00:07:41   but it's fun. And with a Mac, there's so much you can do. I mean, with little automation tools,

00:07:47   you don't need to learn to program. If you get good at Hazel or Keyboard Maestro or even just

00:07:52   text expander you can like make so much magic happen so we talk about that stuff all the time

00:07:57   it's fun i do think and i do think though and this is one of the things i want to talk about

00:08:01   so you name the show mac power users and i do think i think that even though the naming

00:08:06   apple related websites mac whatever is probably always was a bad idea in hindsight because

00:08:14   something new is going to come like it would have it would have worked out poorly two decades ago

00:08:20   if the Newton had really caught on. But it was harder to get legal permission to use

00:08:27   Apple than Mac, even though Apple often objected to Mac whatever names for some years. And

00:08:32   then they kind of backed off that. But with the target audience of your and Katie's show,

00:08:37   I feel like it really does work because I think it's harder to be—the nature of iOS

00:08:41   and the restrictions of iOS make it harder to be a power user on iOS. And that doesn't

00:08:47   mean to say that you can't be I mean there is text expander for iOS and then

00:08:50   you can know about you know apps like launch center Pro and workflow yet

00:08:58   workflow is another good example drafts is probably like the well there's a

00:09:04   bunch of power user text note type apps but to me it's different I don't know

00:09:12   and I do find it interesting because I certainly consider myself to be a Mac

00:09:15   power user right and and you know BB Edit to me is like the canonical Mac

00:09:22   power user app Omni group as their entire lineup is everything about their

00:09:28   apps is geared towards power users in my opinion I mean not that you can't like

00:09:33   it like a casual user can't just start using some of their apps like you could

00:09:36   just open on the outliner and just command N and if you have any idea like

00:09:42   from fifth grade what an outline is, you'll be right at home.

00:09:46   But the whole reason that they're so successful

00:09:48   and they can charge serious money for the app

00:09:50   is that it's got so many power user features.

00:09:55   You can tweak it to make it just the way you like it.

00:09:58   Omni apps, like getting an Omni app

00:10:00   and just using it out of the box without really digging in

00:10:02   is kind of like getting a Lamborghini

00:10:03   and just driving it in parking lots.

00:10:05   Yes.

00:10:06   There's just so much more you can do with this thing.

00:10:09   Yeah, but our show doesn't-- the way

00:10:11   we've dealt with that is, and I'd almost argue that you can get more automation stuff going

00:10:17   these days on iOS, but you know, it's still a journey. But the way we've dealt with on

00:10:21   the shows, we deal, we still do shows, entire shows on iPhone and iPad and iOS related topics.

00:10:27   And we just kind of ignore a problem with the name. And I don't know, it's some day

00:10:31   we've bought some other URLs and we've talked about it, but it's like, you've kind of got

00:10:35   a brand now and yeah, I would let it go. I would, I wouldn't, I wouldn't worry about

00:10:39   I think people understand. And I think the thing that makes it work is that the type of iOS users

00:10:46   who are going to be listening are going to be, they're PCs and Mac too. They're not Windows

00:10:50   people. Oh yeah, that's the assumption. Yeah, I find it interesting personally though, because

00:10:56   I still definitely consider myself a Mac power user. I have a lot of custom modifications,

00:11:01   you know, the paraphrase Han Solo, that power my whole workflow for almost everything I do,

00:11:07   from email to especially posting stuff to Darren fireball um you know custom bookmarklets uh custom

00:11:16   automator services that I've written a lot of you know a lot of the stuff rated around the way I do

00:11:22   markdown um yeah two points on that two points on that number one I wish you'd share more of that

00:11:28   because yeah you do post one I used to I used to post that stuff all the time and then somehow I've

00:11:33   gotten away from it and I realized I've got like this backlog of what I think are some pretty cool

00:11:37   shit.

00:11:38   All right.

00:11:39   And the second thing is I will give you the microphone for as long as you want on Mac

00:11:42   Power Users One Day to come on and just talk about this stuff.

00:11:45   We don't have to talk about any news.

00:11:46   You can just tell us how you use your mic.

00:11:48   It might be a good venue for it.

00:11:50   It really might.

00:11:51   Yeah.

00:11:52   But I don't really use—I don't really do any of that type of stuff on iOS.

00:11:55   On iOS—and I use my phone a lot, and I've been noticing it with the watch, and we can

00:11:59   get to that later on the show.

00:12:01   But I have been--

00:12:05   I've been running my iPhone down into the red a lot lately,

00:12:09   a lot more than I was even just like six months ago.

00:12:12   But I don't really do anything power usury on it.

00:12:15   I don't use any of those apps.

00:12:18   I don't use TextExpander.

00:12:19   I don't use drafts.

00:12:20   I don't use--

00:12:23   I don't use Lawn Center Pro.

00:12:25   I don't use Workflow.

00:12:27   I have loaded all of them, and I've looked at them,

00:12:29   and I've appreciated them, and I can see why every single one of those apps

00:12:34   has become a hit and has a serious enthusiast following.

00:12:39   But the way I use my iPhone, none of that really resonates.

00:12:44   Some of the most productive stuff I've done on iOS

00:12:46   is just sitting down, opening Byword, because it's got a great iCloud sync,

00:12:51   and I'll just dictate text into it.

00:12:54   And no formatting, no scripts, nothing.

00:12:58   just want to get text somewhere, and like on the phone, you can do that. And I'm an indie guy now,

00:13:06   so I'm out on my own all the time. So I'll be sitting at Disneyland, and I'll sit down for

00:13:10   30 minutes and just get a bunch of text into the thing. And the iPhone and iPad are great for that.

00:13:16   And that's a useful productivity tip. It doesn't have to be all, I don't have to post from there,

00:13:21   I don't have to format, I don't do anything. I just want to get text somewhere, and that gives

00:13:24   me a starting point. Yeah, I think, and you know, the app that I helped design and make, Vesper,

00:13:30   is definitely not a power user notes app. It is very, very straightforward and obvious, and there's

00:13:36   there's no secret stuff for, you know, it doesn't have any markdown support. That's like the most

00:13:41   surprising things to so many people that it just doesn't do anything related to markdown. But then

00:13:45   I say to them, well, I said, I write markdown in all the time. I just put asterisks around words.

00:13:49   I want to be italic, put braces around URLs. I was like, so, you know, it doesn't do anything with

00:13:55   it, but it's like that's the whole, my whole thinking around the creation of Markdown,

00:14:00   lo, these many years ago, what the hell has it been now, 11 years or something like that?

00:14:05   Pete Lienberg That's crazy.

00:14:06   John Greenewald Was that you could just enter, you know,

00:14:09   an asterisk anywhere you were entering text, you know?

00:14:12   Pete Lienberg But you know, it's, it's, I mean, I don't, you know,

00:14:16   You have done so much good for the internet with Markdown.

00:14:19   I know it's a tool you just made for yourself.

00:14:21   But putting it out there, I'm really appreciative of it.

00:14:25   And I haven't wrote a book on Markdown.

00:14:27   I know.

00:14:29   But it's just so useful.

00:14:33   I do everything in it.

00:14:34   And I don't know.

00:14:36   When are you going to get your app on the Mac?

00:14:39   Because I cannot wait.

00:14:40   Because I need it.

00:14:41   It's a long story.

00:14:42   I need it too.

00:14:45   I can cheat and I've been cheating because I have

00:14:48   I have vesper for ipad running in an ios simulator

00:14:53   24 7

00:14:56   Which is easy, right?

00:14:57   It isn't great. It's not you know, it's like weird so weird

00:15:01   I don't know if you've ever do you ever uh have anything running in like the ios simulator?

00:15:05   Yeah, i've fiddled around with it

00:15:07   But I understand i'm not complaining because it's the ios simulator now

00:15:11   You're not supposed to use apps like this

00:15:12   But like if you paste text in the way you do it is you're in a Mac app you select the text you copy

00:15:16   You go over to the iOS simulator you paste

00:15:18   But then you have to tap in the text field and hit the paste like

00:15:24   Pasting just pasted into the iOS simulator Mac app then in the iOS simulator

00:15:30   You have to tap the insertion point where you want the text to go and then tap the paste button on the little pop-up menu

00:15:36   To get it to paste into iOS you have to paste twice

00:15:40   Yeah, and the same thing for copying out if the car would make me crazy. Yeah, it's well, that's probably why I drink. I don't know

00:15:47   No

00:15:49   It's a long long story that we cannot get into where we're desperate for Mac is but we we are keenly aware that

00:15:54   Everybody wants it. Oh, yeah

00:15:57   All right, good enough place right here. Let me take a break and

00:16:01   Do our first sponsor and it is a brand new sponsor. I'm very excited to have a new sponsor. I love this

00:16:08   It's a company called last bottle wines

00:16:12   Last bottle is a daily wine purveyor much loved for its beautiful website

00:16:18   30 to 75 percent discounts on fine wine

00:16:22   shipping included and

00:16:24   Carefully curated and often highly sought-after wine selections by longtime

00:16:28   Napa Valley pros last bottle takes all the hassle out of deciding on what to buy and makes it a quick and educated

00:16:35   Decision does this sound?

00:16:38   Does this wine sound great?

00:16:40   Is the price amazing?

00:16:41   Is shipping included?

00:16:42   Yes, yes, yes.

00:16:44   So easy.

00:16:45   Lots of places to buy wine online, of course.

00:16:47   In fact, the owners of Last Bottle had already been doing just that for years in the Napa

00:16:52   Valley before building Last Bottle, the online wine business that instantly hit every wine

00:16:57   drinker's buttons.

00:16:59   With a combined 66 years in the Napa Valley, these guys are connected and they use those

00:17:05   relationships to source outstanding wines from exceptional wineries and put

00:17:09   it in the hands of wine lovers at sensational prices cutting out the

00:17:13   middleman one wine a day every day sounds great to me I really I me

00:17:22   personally I don't know much about wine at all this sounds fantastic to me but

00:17:26   here's the thing that they've got that's really pushed them forward is they're

00:17:29   going beyond a website. They've they're releasing a very simple easy to use

00:17:35   iPhone app featuring push notifications of their daily wine offers. The team at

00:17:40   Last Bottle wanted a way to reach a more connected audience of wine lovers and

00:17:44   couldn't think of a better crowd to introduce it to than you guys the talk

00:17:48   show. Here's the other thing too some of these wines that they get there one wine

00:17:53   a day it's like you know like one of these deal a day type things right but

00:17:56   It's just for wine.

00:17:57   Well, here's the thing.

00:17:58   Sometimes it's really limited quantities.

00:18:02   So if you really wanna get juiced

00:18:04   into what they're offering,

00:18:06   the best way you could do it

00:18:07   is get these push notifications.

00:18:09   You're only gonna get one a day,

00:18:10   but then you can go look at it,

00:18:11   and if it's one that's gonna sell out,

00:18:13   sometimes they sell out within an hour or two,

00:18:16   you won't miss out.

00:18:17   So if you are serious about wine

00:18:20   or if you want to get serious about wine,

00:18:24   check these guys out.

00:18:24   It really does look beautiful.

00:18:26   really does seem like a fantastic way to learn about new wines and to get great wine sent to you

00:18:32   at what seems to me to be great, great prices. Here's where you go. Go to www.lastbottlewines.com/the

00:18:44   talk show. That's lastbottlewines.com/the talk show. And everything you need to do is right

00:18:52   there on the website including links to their app and etc etc so my thanks to last bottle

00:18:57   great new sponsor don't you love that there's non-tech companies now sponsoring tech podcasts

00:19:05   oh i think i've been saying to people i think that that's not that i mind any of the

00:19:11   tech companies that do sponsor it i mean because that's obvious why they do but i think that the

00:19:17   non-tech products, it's brilliant. And I think that all of our shows, all the shows that you

00:19:23   think of that people who listen to like Mac Power users or the talk show or ATP, any of the shows on

00:19:30   Relay FM, it's really not about tech. I mean, there are other podcasts and other podcast networks that

00:19:36   maybe are more purely technical and sort of like the old divide between Mac publications and PC

00:19:42   publications. You know, and like the type of things where they talk about, you know, their

00:19:47   first emphasis is on specs or something like that. That's a different type of world. Like,

00:19:52   you know, this show's not about that. Your show's not about that. Our show attracts,

00:19:56   our shows attract people who are picky and care about shit. That's it. Right? And tech just

00:20:03   happens to be one of them. And so if your product, whether it's, you know, mattresses or wine or

00:20:09   Pillows or all this crazy shit, which I never would have thought that that I'd be selling sponsorships for it. I

00:20:15   think it makes total sense that they have great success with our shows because

00:20:20   you know some chunk of our audience of the audience that listens to this show that cares about the Mac and iOS and really wants

00:20:27   to hear us talk about the Apple watch also really cares about wine and

00:20:30   Really wants to be able to buy it in a cool way and get a great price

00:20:34   So I think it makes all the sense in the world

00:20:37   Yeah, I agree sort of in a way that like a political magazine

00:20:41   No one would ever think that in like a magazine that focuses on like national affairs that all the ads would be for

00:20:48   Politics what the hell are you even advertise with politics?

00:20:51   I think the thing with tech that might be that might and I myself felt you know

00:20:55   Felt felt to this and then like I told you like years ago. I wouldn't have expected these these type of sponsors, but

00:21:00   Like a national affairs magazine. What do they filter?

00:21:04   They're filled with ads for cars and watches

00:21:06   and just all sorts of general purpose products.

00:21:10   - It also indicates that the platform of podcasting

00:21:14   is getting more legitimate.

00:21:15   I mean, when we first started doing ads,

00:21:18   a lot of people really had trouble understanding,

00:21:21   they don't even understand the metrics

00:21:22   'cause everything is different from traditional advertising.

00:21:26   In fact, I talked to some traditional advertising guys

00:21:28   that just poo-poo the whole thing,

00:21:30   but they don't understand that's where people are going

00:21:33   get content now. Yeah, well in 2007 when this show started its first run with me

00:21:38   and me and Dan Benjamin, the very first run of it, you could see those episodes

00:21:42   at the talk show dotnet still. We wanted sponsors and I was selling, you know, I

00:21:50   was already, I think I went full-time with Daring Fireball in 2006, so I was

00:21:55   all and partially based on user, you know, direct support from readers from

00:22:01   Memberships and t-shirts and stuff like that

00:22:03   But the memberships and t-shirts thing really was just the way that I launched going full-time

00:22:07   the only way that I got to

00:22:10   Be in the black like month to month

00:22:12   which I think it was like April 2006 when I announced I was going full-time and

00:22:16   sold a bunch of t-shirts and had like

00:22:19   $20,000 or something like that that we cruised on through the summer and just kind of started mowing through and

00:22:25   Got like by August. It was like we had like nothing but

00:22:29   Sponsorships were starting to pick up a little bit

00:22:31   I remember by like it was either October or November

00:22:33   Where like the little Excel spreadsheet where we were keeping track of it where it was the first month where it was like

00:22:38   Hey this we actually made a little more than we spend on all of our expenses

00:22:43   So I was you know by 2007 when we started the talk show

00:22:49   I was definitely selling enough sponsorships for during fireball that made it a legitimate job

00:22:54   We couldn't find anybody to sponsor the podcast. I mean like nobody we couldn't even sell it

00:22:59   spots for like 250 bucks

00:23:01   Yeah, I'd never heard the daring fireball origin story before it's interesting

00:23:07   Well, that's that's a long story

00:23:10   It takes a pair though, you know how to like give up a job well you've sort of done that

00:23:17   I was I don't want to talk about me. Let's talk about you. So you have already said you are an attorney now

00:23:22   You there's another reason I put off putting I've in the show now you live in

00:23:26   Somewhere in Southern California. Yeah, Orange County, right? So that's why I've been waiting to have you on the show right now today here in Philadelphia

00:23:34   It is 70 degrees and sunny. It was 70 degrees and sunny yesterday

00:23:38   And I believe the forecast tomorrow is around 70 degrees and sunny so f you I

00:23:42   Don't even have the weather widget on my my Apple watch because I live in Southern California

00:23:47   What do you need that for somebody said that to me where I forget I had a friend. Oh, it was Adam Lisa Gore

00:23:54   The other week before he was on my show and we were you know preparing and he's so so so excited about the Apple watch

00:24:02   And he was like, let me see he goes quick without changing anything

00:24:04   Show me your watch face and I sent him a screenshot of my watch face and he was like, why do you still itty?

00:24:10   Utility it is utility. It's utility with known just no our numbers with the date at three o'clock

00:24:16   With the fitness top right the weather top left and right now I have my calendar at the bottom

00:24:23   But I I did all around with that and sometimes turn that off just turn it off to nothing

00:24:28   Rather than have that goddamn no more events in in all caps

00:24:32   Why that's kind of the the geeks are really mad about that no more events thing. I don't know it doesn't bother me

00:24:38   it really bothers me and because it bothers me because

00:24:41   If it was a real watch if it was a mechanical way of doing it it would just blank out like so the the

00:24:50   The equivalent and again, this isn't skeuomorphic

00:24:53   It's not they're not making it look like it flips around and that it's a little cutout panel that shows this, right?

00:25:00   I think they've designed it perfectly

00:25:01   But it is sort of mimicking the way that like like the way that the the little hour

00:25:06   Or not the hour the day of the month thing at three o'clock it

00:25:10   It's a little panel just like on a mechanical watch on an automatic watch

00:25:14   So if you think about like a train station and there's the board that shows all of the upcoming trains

00:25:20   when there's like room to show 12 but they there's only seven trains coming in

00:25:27   the next you know reasonable amount of time the bottom five rows don't say no

00:25:31   more trains it's just they just leave it blank like if there's nothing left the

00:25:36   natural state of an information panel is to just show nothing yeah and it's

00:25:42   actually takes effort to have it display no more events I mean there's code that

00:25:46   does that. So that code could display blank just as easily.

00:25:49   The explanation I've heard, the best theory I've heard for why they show that is that

00:25:54   if you are the sort of person, I think that the dividing line of whether you are bothered

00:25:58   by this or not is whether you have a lot of events on your calendar or not. Do you live

00:26:04   the sort of life where you have a lot of meetings and stuff like that and that you seldom see

00:26:11   no more events? And when you...

00:26:13   That's me.

00:26:14   you do see it, it's like a relief. It's like an inbox zero type of euphoria that you get,

00:26:20   right? It's like, "Ah, my day is done. No more events." It actually pleases you to see it because

00:26:26   you started your day with a whole bunch of stuff that that was going to cycle through.

00:26:30   Whereas with me, more often than not, I've got nothing on a regular day. Or the only thing I

00:26:38   have, I do have a calendar subscription to the Yankees schedule. And so the only thing on my

00:26:43   watch is just telling me the Yankees played seven but I knew that already you know I don't really

00:26:46   need that on that the calendar thing um I sounds to me like you're living right brother I think it's

00:26:53   I have a lot of events in mind so I think I think the no more events thing I think it hopefully it'll

00:26:58   change I I could I really you know again I I just like a constant refrain of the last decade is I

00:27:05   know like at some point around a decade ago we collectively realized that adding preferences

00:27:12   every time there's any kind of dispute over something is not the way to build sustainable

00:27:16   software for years to come because eventually you end up with you know at any given one feature

00:27:22   it's not a bad idea but as a general principle if you keep doing that you end up with these

00:27:26   crazy you know there's way too many preferences here and you're lost trying to find anything but

00:27:31   i do think that maybe this one should be a setting and the reason why is that i feel like some people

00:27:37   want to see that and some people are just annoyed by that.

00:27:39   I don't know that anybody, you know, I guess on my side of the fence would really care

00:27:44   if it never said no more events again. I'd be fine if it was blank at the end of the

00:27:50   day. Seems like the people on the side of saying get rid of it are much more passionate

00:27:54   about that than the people that would want to keep it.

00:27:56   Yeah, I wouldn't mind too if there was some way that it would show the argument I've seen

00:28:01   is that some people say that if it showed nothing, it would create an anxiety in them

00:28:04   because it would make them feel like the calendar wasn't syncing anymore, you know, that it had lost

00:28:11   the connection and that their watch was no—and that they do have an event upcoming, but that

00:28:16   the watch isn't reading it, you know, that somehow. I don't know. I can't really buy that.

00:28:23   I—

00:28:23   Pete: It's interesting because I used a Pebble for a long time, right up until the time the Apple

00:28:28   Watch released, and I was always—the Pebble was always losing connection with the phone. And,

00:28:35   you know, whether it was a calendar entry or the weather or whatever, it just, you know, it was

00:28:41   clearly bad or old data. And ever since the Apple Watch arrived, I mean, that's just not even an

00:28:47   issue for me. I always know that if I look at the weather, it's going to be the actual current

00:28:51   weather actually where I'm located, or the calendar data is going to be accurate. There's

00:28:55   been no failure. I mean, I have complete faith in it at this point. And I guess that's probably

00:28:59   unfair to Pebble because they're not Apple. They don't have the same access to the operating system

00:29:04   that the Apple Watch guys had, but boy, it just works. In fact, that's the weird thing about the

00:29:09   watches. You don't fiddle with it much. In my case, I mean, once I figured it out, I just

00:29:14   started wearing it and it was my watch. And that was that. What's your watch face? Utility.

00:29:19   What color? Black. I mean, utility. Oh, the watch itself is the,

00:29:25   what do they call it no but what color what's your what's your highlight color for you orange

00:29:28   orange same here yeah the default i love it yeah yeah me too my high school was black and orange

00:29:33   and i always thought that those they were it not just out of like sheer loyalty you know to

00:29:40   whatever shitty colors your high school had i always thought it was that it was a good look

00:29:45   and a rare one that there's not many teams in sports with black and orange were you the tigers

00:29:51   No, we were the mountaineers. Tigers is a natural. I bet, you know, Tigers is usually like the

00:29:57   NFL Bengals, you know, it's a natural orange and black combo.

00:30:01   My high school is black and orange. For a minute there, I thought we may have gone to the same

00:30:05   school. Wouldn't that have been funny? But the, yeah, so I've got, and I've got the,

00:30:11   what do they call it, the budget Darth Vader watch, you know, the black aluminum with the

00:30:17   rubber band, the black rubber, and the orange, it looks really nice together. I do the same thing

00:30:22   when I use the modular face. I have them all orange. Yeah, yeah, I like the orange. My son

00:30:26   has it as red, which I've seen a lot of people with screenshots, you know, for modular. He's a

00:30:32   digital guy. You get his watch. Last time I heard you talking, he hadn't got it. No, he got it,

00:30:38   ahead of schedule. So everything we've ordered for the house has shown up except for my

00:30:45   black steel links watch, which seemingly nobody has gotten yet.

00:30:51   My oldest daughter is freshman in college. She got one and she got it finally. And she,

00:30:57   she sent me a, a diagram on it. I'm like, oh, cool. She's sending me a message. She wrote poop.

00:31:02   That's a good kid.

00:31:07   Yeah, exactly. So you pooped on my watch. She said, yeah, I know.

00:31:13   I tried to draw a pile of poo the one time and it's not, I'm not good enough.

00:31:17   Yeah, I can't draw anything on this thing. I mean, just, it's terrible.

00:31:20   Yeah. I'm not.

00:31:22   I don't know if that's really gonna be a thing. The heartbeat thing with my wife, that's cool.

00:31:26   The taps, you can kind of develop a language with the taps,

00:31:30   but the drawing the picture thing, I'm not sure where that's going.

00:31:34   Yeah, I don't know. The other thing that I don't know about is

00:31:42   is the interface for, you tap the side button

00:31:47   to bring up the little 12 o'clock,

00:31:52   the 12 spot dial for picking a contact.

00:31:54   And now that so many people I know have an Apple Watch.

00:32:01   - Are you beyond 12 now?

00:32:02   - Oh, definitely.

00:32:04   - So what do you do?

00:32:05   - I had to start, I've already had to cut people.

00:32:10   And that just doesn't even mention the people

00:32:12   who I might want to have on a quick contact list

00:32:15   who don't have Apple Watch, but I want them there

00:32:17   so that I could quick send them a text message

00:32:19   from my wrist, right?

00:32:23   - Is there even a way to send a tap or a picture

00:32:27   to someone who's not on that list of 12?

00:32:29   I don't think there is.

00:32:30   - No, no, no, but you can still initiate a phone call

00:32:32   or a text.

00:32:34   So it's a way to tell, you can actually tell

00:32:37   whether somebody has an Apple Watch

00:32:38   registered to their Apple ID.

00:32:39   you put them in your friends list, that 12-spot friends list, and if they have an Apple Watch,

00:32:46   they have three options. Yeah, the center button exists. And if not, they don't. And so,

00:32:51   I think I mentioned this a few weeks ago, like in anticipation, I figured, I didn't know,

00:32:58   but I figured that Jim Dalrymple would be getting a watch before April 24th. So every day,

00:33:07   I was checking to see if he'd gotten one yet and then like on the 23rd

00:33:10   He showed up with the thing and then I quick sent him a picture of a day

00:33:14   Because I wanted to be the first person to do it

00:33:17   But it is an issue because this watch is gonna be popular and like if you want

00:33:23   So if you want to be able to do that with a friend they have to get on your list of 12

00:33:29   Yeah

00:33:30   even though you may want somebody else that doesn't have a watch on that list of 12 or

00:33:34   maybe you have more than 12 people that have watches and just seems like a very limiting interface for something that they clearly intend to be a

00:33:41   massively important part of the watch given that it's the one and only feature that

00:33:45   That is that you can do with there's only two buttons on the thing hardware buttons and one of them when you single press it

00:33:52   It's all it there is no configuration. All it does is bring this side menu up

00:33:56   or friends list up from the side and

00:34:01   To limit it to 12 like that really feels

00:34:04   Really limited I it's just really weird and now that I'm filled up with 12 somebody I forget who it was but somebody sent me a

00:34:13   doodle the other day

00:34:17   And I wanted to add them to my list, but I already had 12 and then at that point what you have to do is

00:34:23   You have to go to the phone and delete somebody and add that person manually

00:34:28   Like there's no way to do it right there on the fly as you as you get it

00:34:32   Yeah, it's I bet that evolves. I think it has to I think it's it's way too

00:34:39   I mean, I you know, it would be easy to change

00:34:41   I don't think anybody's gonna become addicted to this 12 people in a circle thing

00:34:45   so I think it would be easy to break that in the future and do something new and

00:34:48   Quite frankly, it's already changed because it's a very different interface from what they showed in September

00:34:53   Yeah, yeah, what's it a great? I forget was it a grid I think or when they actually

00:34:58   I actually forget but I know it wasn't a circle. I totally forget what it was in September,

00:35:02   but I know it wasn't a circle. It's hard to look up on that because Apple sort of thrown

00:35:08   the September thing down the memory hole. It's fun though. It's fun having this watch on and

00:35:13   getting notifications on my wrist and just the basic stuff. But it's also just fun like sending

00:35:18   taps to people and I don't know. I think they've done a good job with it. Yeah, I do too. So you

00:35:24   living in Orange County, I saw that when you first got it and you wrote up your experiences

00:35:31   with it right away, you had gone to Disneyland and it looked like typical Orange County weather.

00:35:36   It was sunny. That to me is as it gets nicer and nicer here in Philadelphia as we go into May from

00:35:44   April and it's a lot fewer overcast days and a lot of more days like today where it's just absolutely

00:35:50   positively perfect. I find it hard to read the watch in sunlight.

00:35:53   Pete: Yeah, that, in direct sunlight, it is harder to read. Although, I think that's one of maybe

00:35:59   the reasons I like the utility face. It's very easy to see. I mean, the hands are big enough

00:36:06   that you're just fine. Like the chronograph, I don't know, I don't think I could read that.

00:36:10   Even, I think that's very difficult to read.

00:36:13   Pete: Yeah, because the hands are hollow, they're not filled, and the extra superfluous stuff.

00:36:20   um there's just no way i could read that stuff i'm i'm 47 there's just it's not even possible

00:36:26   i i don't even know what those what they're doing in there i can't maybe a magnifying glass or

00:36:31   something but the uh yeah it's it's great um the uh i haven't had a whole lot of trouble i i can't

00:36:37   if i take on direct sunlight i can see how the uh the panel's not attached to the glass like i've

00:36:42   kind of got used to on the iphone and the ipad and um but you know it's generation one

00:36:48   I don't know about that. I remember there was an ATP episode a couple of weeks ago where they were talking about

00:36:53   how whether the panel is attached to the glass or not, and I think and and I

00:36:59   Might get this detail wrong, but I think and then in the next episode and their follow-up

00:37:04   there was one of the Johnny I've videos where they said on Johnny I've said on some of the on some of the watches the

00:37:09   the display is fused to the sapphire crystal and

00:37:15   That's all he said. So I think it is I think it is fused to the surface

00:37:20   I think it looks pretty close and I think that in certain lighting you can definitely see the display through the sapphire

00:37:27   But it's it's rare for me even in sunlight. It's rare for me. I

00:37:31   Wonder if because mine's aluminum and so I don't have the sapphire crystal

00:37:35   I wonder if well and the ATB guys brought it up what Johnny I've said and it's just his recording

00:37:40   It's ambiguous what that means for the sport models because does he mean?

00:37:45   All of them are fused and but some only some of them have sapphire or does he mean only the ones who are sapphire or fused?

00:37:52   I don't know it

00:37:53   I looked at my son's sports watch and it didn't look to me like it was any different

00:37:57   but I also have to admit that it at age 42 and with the

00:38:01   trouble with my left eye I

00:38:04   I can really see the difference like this is the first time ever that I've had seen an Apple product where I

00:38:13   I really couldn't. I think the 38 actually looks good on my wrist. I think I could totally get by

00:38:18   with it in terms of the size, but I actually do struggle to read it in a way that I don't

00:38:23   struggle to read the 42. Yeah, I am. My wife's, because I had the black one, those were

00:38:29   constrained. So my wife's blue phone, I'm sorry, blue watch with the silver aluminum showed up

00:38:36   on day one and she let me wear it for a few days because I wanted to fiddle with it more than she

00:38:40   did and it was 38 and it was fine and looked good on me but but i agree once the bigger one showed up

00:38:46   i knew exactly that was that was for me i think adam had the same thing didn't he was saying he

00:38:50   did the same thing so like for example on the uh chronograph is a perfect now i don't really use

00:38:55   the chronograph that much although i do sometimes the reason i like it is that you can just switch

00:38:59   to chronograph so i have chronograph two two watch faces over and then you're one tap away from

00:39:05   starting a timer or a stopwatch like if you wanted to you know um you know like i do like when i put

00:39:12   charcoal on the grill and then just boom start a stopwatch and then i know you know once it gets

00:39:16   like 25 minutes start checking it to see if it's ready um yeah serie timer awesome yeah just hold

00:39:23   it down um but with the 38 millimeter with my son's 38 millimeter i can't read the sub dials

00:39:29   on the chronograph. It makes me feel incredibly old. There's a second hand underneath, and

00:39:37   it depends how you have it configured, but there's two subdials. That's what those little

00:39:43   subcircles are. I can't read the numbers on his, and I can read them on mine.

00:39:48   Pete: It was about your age I am. I noticed I was holding books out further and further

00:39:53   from me as I read them. And someone said, you know, you may have, you know, you may have a

00:39:58   problem there. And I we were at Costco, I'll never forget. And they had, you know, the sample reading

00:40:02   glasses. And I put a pair on and looked at some words. And I'm just like, God damn, I'm getting

00:40:08   old. I'm looking at I fix it on their teardown of an aluminum one. And it's not clear, but it looks

00:40:14   like it may be attached. It's pretty close to the surface. And I think that the effect, the overall

00:40:19   effect of the entire black surface, whichever model you have, looks like it's the display

00:40:28   and the actual display just takes up, you know, some portion within it with these generous

00:40:34   what seems to be generous margins around it. In fact, though, like those when you have

00:40:39   stuff out to the corner, they're really writing it right out to the corner of the display.

00:40:43   And I

00:40:44   that's crazy. When you take a screenshot and you see you're like, wow, that doesn't look

00:40:46   right. Yeah, it looks totally perfect. Right? Yeah.

00:40:49   Yeah, and it was definitely true with some of the initial apps that came out in April

00:40:55   that they had way too-- the margin, they had even just two or three pixels of margin.

00:41:00   It really made their stuff look cramped.

00:41:04   Have you done the fitness stuff much?

00:41:05   Have you played with that much yet?

00:41:07   A little bit.

00:41:10   I'm getting back into running now that I'm clear to it with the eye stuff.

00:41:16   I'm using it to run a couple times a week, and I track.

00:41:19   Sometimes I do it--

00:41:20   I don't know.

00:41:21   I think when I go out-- well, I live in a city,

00:41:23   and so I walk everywhere.

00:41:24   And to me, going on a walk, like walking somewhere,

00:41:26   if I walk to pick up my son from school,

00:41:28   it's like 1 and 1/2 miles away.

00:41:30   So it's like a three mile walk round trip.

00:41:32   That doesn't feel like exercise to me, like walking.

00:41:35   I mean, I think it's good for you,

00:41:36   and I think it's one of the nice parts about living in a city.

00:41:38   But to me, that doesn't feel like a workout.

00:41:40   It feels silly to me to start the workout app

00:41:42   and say, I'm going on a walk, and I'm just walking.

00:41:45   but I do it just to have it to play with.

00:41:47   Pete: The thing I realize is it, because I never really thought about heart rate much,

00:41:52   because I walk a lot too, and I'm thinking, "I'm doing great with exercise. I'm walking all over

00:41:56   the place." But wearing the watch for the first week, I realized, you know, I didn't do anything

00:42:00   to raise my heart rate the whole week. So now, the watch actually has changed my behavior. So now I'm

00:42:05   like looking for hills to climb or spending a little time every day to kind of get my heart

00:42:10   rate up and and i'm not sure if it's just the newness of the watch if this will stick or not

00:42:15   but it bothers me now when i get the end day i haven't got my 30 minutes of elevated heart rate

00:42:20   yeah and i do think too that the fitness stuff even though i'm not a super big fitness

00:42:25   enthusiast but i'm wearing it every day and so now i've got you know i'm up to like six weeks now of

00:42:31   you know daily stuff it is keeping me from like wearing my old watch like it's like the one of

00:42:37   the main, it's probably the main thing that's keeping me from just wearing my old watch on,

00:42:43   you know, just for kicks, which is something I used to, you know, I used to switch between two

00:42:47   watches. And I anticipated that I wouldn't want to wear my Apple Watch every single day, or maybe

00:42:52   even not most days, but the fitness stuff kind of motivates me to, and I've heard other people say

00:42:56   the same thing, because you don't want to have, you don't want to lose a day and have a day where

00:42:59   it, you know, makes it look like you never got out of bed. Yeah. Or even like when you get out of bed

00:43:05   in the morning and let's say I'm gonna be working in pajamas for two hours, I'll still put the watch

00:43:10   on because I know I'm going to be going up and down the steps and doing something. I don't want

00:43:14   to lose that credit. So it's funny. I'm very motivated to get this watch on as soon as I wake

00:43:18   up in the morning. Yeah. I do find though I still find like, before we move on from watch stuff,

00:43:25   but I do find I'm still right from my first review one week after wearing it. I still am annoyed when

00:43:32   and I look at it and the display doesn't turn on

00:43:34   for whatever reason.

00:43:35   And it just happened to me while I was coming up the stairs,

00:43:39   my office here at the house is second floor,

00:43:41   and I was coming up here to do the podcast

00:43:43   and my arms were full.

00:43:45   I had a coffee mug in one hand

00:43:47   and I had my thermos filled with the coffee

00:43:49   that I'd been refilling in the other.

00:43:51   And so I couldn't tilt my wrist,

00:43:53   but I got the tap that I had in the alert

00:43:57   and I look at my wrist to see what it was

00:43:59   and it's just black.

00:44:01   I was just so annoyed even though I was only 10 seconds away from being able to set it down and

00:44:06   see what it was. But it's like if you're going to give me the tap, I want to see the goddamn thing.

00:44:10   Tom Bilyeu: You know, my take on that is that they, at some point they said, the one story we

00:44:16   never want written about the Apple Watch is that the battery dies at 5pm. I think they said, you

00:44:21   know, more than anything. And like, it also bothers me that that it turns off in like, was it six

00:44:26   seconds? Because sometimes I actually need more than six seconds, six seconds to process what's

00:44:30   on the screen. And I just feel like somewhere they said, you know, we're going to make it

00:44:34   extra sensitive. We're not going to make it turn on. Just anytime you flick your wrist,

00:44:38   we're not going to leave it on long. And we're never going to have a story written that says

00:44:42   it turned—that the battery died at five. And I think they, you know, they kind of went too far.

00:44:46   I mean, I go to bed, things at 45 percent battery left, and that's after an 18-hour day. I mean,

00:44:51   it's crazy.

00:44:51   Darrell Bock Yeah. For me, the battery's been such a non-issue. The only time I ever got vaguely

00:44:56   close never once ran it all the way down but one time in the first week while i was really you know

00:45:01   working pretty much morning tonight on how am i going to write this first review of the watch

00:45:07   you know when the embargo drops next week uh i mean and really using it in a way that was not

00:45:13   reflective of the daily use of it it was really more like i'm i'm i was almost like a quality

00:45:18   assistance tester you know like i'm testing the watch like it was my job to play with it all day

00:45:22   I ran it down to the like 10% or something like that. But that was that was truly abnormal. I do

00:45:29   think though that there is a I haven't seen anybody publish any kind of specs on this,

00:45:33   but I think the difference between 38 and 42 on battery life is truly significant because it seems

00:45:38   like my wife and son who both have 38 definitely finished the day lower. Neither one has ever run

00:45:45   out but they're both significantly lower. I was thinking I'd be buying an extra magnetic charger

00:45:53   and like keep it in my car and I had all these like ideas when I first heard about the watch and

00:45:57   I don't need any of that stuff for me it's just plug it in at the end you know charge at the end

00:46:02   of the day you're fine yeah but if I had a setting and I feel like the other thing they wanted to do

00:46:05   I think you're exactly right that they said we don't want anybody saying that this thing is

00:46:10   is crapping out before they go to bed.

00:46:12   So I feel like the roughly day and a half battery life

00:46:16   that they've hit is exactly right,

00:46:20   'cause that way you definitely have to charge it every day,

00:46:23   but I don't see anybody complaining

00:46:27   that the watch is turning black before they go to sleep.

00:46:31   Yeah, but I can, you know,

00:46:32   and there are some hypothetical scenarios.

00:46:34   I mean, I'm an old man and I just stay home all the time.

00:46:37   But when I was a younger man,

00:46:39   were times where I would, you know, spur the moment, wind up sleeping somewhere that wasn't

00:46:47   my house. You know, just sleeping at a friend's, you know.

00:46:53   You handled that really well.

00:46:54   I don't even mean to imply anything. I don't mean to imply anything, any kind of even adult

00:46:59   situation, maybe other than the consumption of adult beverages.

00:47:03   Yeah. When I was a younger man, it would be more like an overnight halo party.

00:47:06   [laughter]

00:47:07   You know what? You know what? That's an example, too. No, I've... Like in college,

00:47:12   we would have all-night marathon sessions, where you had to... If you wanted to play

00:47:17   a network game, you had to be on the LAN. So that's a perfect example, where there's nothing...

00:47:22   I'm not implying anything inappropriate or that I let any kind of crazy lifestyle. But

00:47:26   in college, I sometimes would not sleep in my bedroom. Or I wouldn't come home until six or

00:47:33   or seven in the morning, you know, in which case I do wonder whether the why I don't know

00:47:36   that the watch as it is today would would make it.

00:47:40   But then these like charging straps and weird things are showing up. I think that's all

00:47:45   completely been it's crazy to me. And I don't understand because you have to the only way

00:47:49   to charge it is to is underneath and that's going to it. I don't see how that can possibly

00:47:53   work with the with the sensors that they have. Because the sensors start going bananas if

00:47:59   they're not connected to your skin.

00:48:01   It's funny how much time we spend, as geeks, thinking about battery life and batteries,

00:48:07   because the whole world has changed in the last five, six years. It's all mobile now.

00:48:12   And charging life and battery time is so key. And it's the big constraint right now, too. So

00:48:18   everything you think about charging. I'm obsessive about it. I have charging docks all over my house.

00:48:25   And if I'm just sitting here right now, my phone's in a charger. It doesn't need to be. It's at 100%.

00:48:30   percent it's you know one o'clock in the afternoon but i can't help myself have you found that your

00:48:36   watch or your iphone gets worse battery life now that you're using it with your watch i haven't

00:48:41   noticed any i'm convinced that i am i'm convinced that and i think it's because i never used anything

00:48:46   bluetooth before and so yeah i had it on for um uh what's the feature called hand uh does hand

00:48:58   off. Does handoff require Bluetooth though? Or does it...

00:49:00   I think it uses both.

00:49:02   Yeah, it may not. But I know that like AirDrop requires Bluetooth. But it only ever... Before I

00:49:08   started using Apple Watch, I was only ever had the gray Bluetooth in the status bar. The gray

00:49:15   Bluetooth means like Bluetooth is on, but you're not connected to anything. It's just low power

00:49:21   mode and it's there for like, "Oh, okay. Hey, you can hand off this webpage or this email that you've

00:49:27   started writing on your phone to this other thing and it only really does anything but now it's black

00:49:32   all the time it's the black bluetooth because it's connected to the watch and i'm convinced i'm

00:49:36   getting worse battery life on the phone i'm still making it through the day but i'm dropping into

00:49:40   the red whereas in the first few months of using an iphone 6 i never was in the red yeah i use

00:49:46   bluetooth headphones and stuff all day long so it's uh i can't tell any difference i'll tell you

00:49:52   one thing about the watch that I didn't expect to like as much as I do is the whole force touch

00:49:57   thing. I mean, it's just, I'm finding, I'm finding, I really like having that additional user

00:50:03   interface, you know, methodology, like just clearing your notifications with a force press.

00:50:08   You know, it's, I hope that that stuff makes its way to the phone. I've said this before,

00:50:13   and I know it sounds like a joke, but my number two, I have two tips for anybody who gets sample

00:50:18   watch is I know what you're going to do is what you're going to do is you're gonna rip open a box

00:50:22   and you're gonna put it on and you're gonna go through the pairing process and just start using it and exploring and doing it on your own.

00:50:26   So go ahead. I'm not gonna tell you that, you know, take your vitamins.

00:50:30   Um, open it up, put it on, play with it, and then a day or two later when you feel like you're confused,

00:50:35   you feel like you're not getting it all. Here's the two things to do. Go back to your packaging and reread

00:50:40   the Getting Started pamphlet, which is just six panels. I'm not saying read the user manual. I'm saying just read that Getting Started panel,

00:50:47   which is like, it's like almost more like a comic book than a user manual.

00:50:51   because you I guarantee you most people will find something that they didn't know or didn't remember

00:50:58   like oh that's how you do Apple pay you start by double tapping that button like because I'll admit

00:51:04   when I I'll admit it's like when I would the first week that I would had the Apple watch I I

00:51:11   couldn't get Apple pay to work I went to Whole Foods and I held my watch up to the I figured it

00:51:15   worked like the phone I knew that I had to double tap that button to confirm it I just figured you

00:51:20   start by holding your watch up to the terminal and then when it pings like okay ready for apple pay

00:51:24   then you double tap to confirm and nothing happened and i thought oh well maybe i didn't set it up right

00:51:30   and then event you know but just read that pamphlet i'm telling you you're going to learn

00:51:35   something and there's so many questions i see it on twitter every day when because people are still

00:51:39   getting their watches and they're asking questions that are answered in that that pamphlet and then

00:51:44   then my it's like the the one that where he double tap the the crown it goes to the last

00:51:50   app. Yep people I've seen people say I wish there was some way to just go back to the

00:51:54   last app and it's like there is a way you double click the crown it's they've really

00:51:59   thought of that and then my second tip my only two top tips my second tip is try force

00:52:05   tapping everywhere just any app you use whether it's from apple whether it's from a third

00:52:10   party, try ForceTap and see if there's something there.

00:52:14   Yeah, you're right.

00:52:15   And so often, that's the answer to all problems

00:52:18   when you're stuck somewhere.

00:52:21   There was a lot of talk when the thing first

00:52:23   came out about two things.

00:52:25   The first was everybody was complaining about notifications,

00:52:27   which I never really got.

00:52:28   Because it seemed to me like, especially

00:52:30   some of these people in a tech press

00:52:31   should understand that notifications are entirely

00:52:34   within your control.

00:52:36   But it's not that hard to just notification.

00:52:39   that hasn't really been an issue for me. But the other one that I, I thought was kind of unfair is

00:52:44   that the whole thing about saying, well, this is a different interface, and it's harder to figure

00:52:47   out, well, it is a different interface, it's a smaller screen. But I don't think you should

00:52:53   expect it any different. I do think maybe it would be better if there was a way if, you know,

00:53:00   there's two buttons, or what if there's one button you could press that would always give you a watch

00:53:05   face. But I really think it really wasn't that hard to figure out.

00:53:10   I haven't linked to it yet, but I almost certainly will

00:53:17   before this show airs. We're recording on Thursday. It's probably going to air on Friday.

00:53:24   Stephen Orth, I'll link to it. I'll definitely have it linked from Daring Fireball. I will try

00:53:31   to remember the link to it in the show notes here. I'm making a note right now.

00:53:34   Now, Stephen Orth had an interesting first week with the iPhone blog post.

00:53:43   And one of his ideas was that he thought that maybe the side button, instead of being underneath

00:53:53   the crown, should have been opposite the crown and that you could tap it to go back.

00:54:00   Because he found that anytime he was in any app that had like a navigation, you know,

00:54:04   like here's the route, and then you tap a thing and then you go in and then there's

00:54:07   a little back button up there, that it's really hard to tap that back button.

00:54:11   And I completely six weeks in, I still miss back buttons a lot in that upper corner.

00:54:17   Or depending on the app, I've I'll try to be hitting that back button and even worse

00:54:21   than missing it, I'll hit something beneath it.

00:54:26   I've been trying, I've been experimenting with Wunderlist for like shopping and stuff like that.

00:54:31   Like create a little shopping list in Wunderlist and then it's on my wrist and I don't have to go

00:54:36   through the supermarket fiddling with a phone. I can just keep going to my wrist. But I find that

00:54:40   sometimes, you know, I'll try to hit the top item to either check it off and I'll hit the back button

00:54:45   that goes back to my list of lists or I'll try to go back to the back of the list of lists and I end

00:54:49   up checking the top item. So his idea is put a hardware button to go back, which I don't think is

00:54:55   is a good idea. And I think if you put it opposite the digital crown, it would actually

00:54:58   create the same sort of problem people have with the power button and the volume up button

00:55:03   on the iPhone six, where people, cause they're opposite each other and when people put their

00:55:08   fingers on both of them and then they try to squeeze one and they end up squeezing the

00:55:12   other.

00:55:13   How many times you've got to take a picture and turn your camera, your phone off, you

00:55:16   know, the, um, that, that New Jersey guy, Mike Hurley, um, and, um, and Jason Stell

00:55:21   the Upgrade podcast a few weeks ago did kind of a thing about this. And Mike made the point that,

00:55:27   you know, the home screen on the watch is the watch face.

00:55:30   Yes.

00:55:31   You know, and I thought he made a really great point that it should be all there should be one

00:55:35   button that just gets you to the watch face at any time. And the problem with the digital crown is

00:55:40   that it's inconsistent. Sometimes it does that sometimes it goes somewhere else. And I you know,

00:55:45   what the guys at Apple, I'm sure they spent a lot of time figuring this out. But but I do

00:55:49   appreciate the idea of just every user knows they press one button and the watch face comes up and

00:55:55   from there hopefully you figured out gestures enough to be able to get to wherever you need to

00:55:59   go. Yeah, it's a great, I really do think that that's true and I think calling the list of apps

00:56:04   the home screen, I don't even know if Apple is calling it the home screen, I don't know if they

00:56:07   even call it that but it's not, you know, and it only serves to confuse you to make you think that

00:56:14   it's that that watch works like a little iPhone. And I do think that that is a great point. Because

00:56:22   I think part of the beauty of iOS is that the way that's the way the home button works,

00:56:26   no matter where you are, you can hit that home button, and it's going to take you to the home

00:56:30   screen. But then looking at my wife and daughter, who neither one of them are geeks, or want to be

00:56:36   Mac power users or anything like that, they use the watch is just fine. You know, I mean, they

00:56:42   they're not having any trouble using it so maybe they did it right I don't know

00:56:46   right but the way on icon iOS like you just single tap that home button and it

00:56:51   takes you to your home screen and it doesn't matter if you're in an app you

00:56:55   hit the home button takes you to the home screen if you're already on the

00:56:57   home screen and you've brought up control center or you've brought down

00:57:01   notification center you can hit the home screen and it goes away now you don't

00:57:06   have to because you could just tap to get it to go away but if you don't know

00:57:09   to do that because there's no button that says make it go

00:57:11   away. Just hit that home button and it takes you there so I can

00:57:14   kinda see the logic of if there was just a button that always

00:57:17   took you to your watch face. Yeah, I think users would

00:57:21   appreciate that. It's um it is fun though. I'll tell you what

00:57:26   it's just fun when Apple makes something new like a 1.0

00:57:30   product. I agree and just to see what they've done with it

00:57:33   and I know I'm a geek and all that stuff but it's just cool

00:57:36   to be part of it. I think the one that excited me the most when it came out was the iPad

00:57:40   because it just, I don't know, I just felt like it was such a great idea and it was just

00:57:46   so awesome when it showed up. But both the iPad and the iPhone, when they came out, I

00:57:52   spent weeks just like going over every detail and just playing with them. And the thing

00:57:57   about the watch is I didn't spend that much time fiddling with it. I mean, I kind of got

00:58:02   it set up the way I wanted. I got my watch face picked out and I put it on and I went

00:58:06   on with my day, but I'm just using it just as intended all the time. I think it's a good

00:58:11   thing, but it is different.

00:58:13   Yeah, definitely. Hold that thought though. Let's take a break and talk about our second

00:58:19   sponsor. It's another, it's not the first time this is actually a return sponsor, but

00:58:24   it's been a while, but definitely not a tech sponsor. I want to tell you about the best

00:58:30   Caesar. Now this is not your ordinary Caesar salad recipe. This is something

00:58:36   different. This one's got bite, it's bold, it's edgy, it's sharp. It's the perfect

00:58:41   combination of ingredients and it's this powerful salad dressing will leave you

00:58:45   wanting more. Yes, the sponsor is a Caesar salad recipe and they're back and they

00:58:51   did great with their last sponsorship which is why they're back. I love this.

00:58:55   I personally, I do, I love Caesar salad. Caesar salad is like one of my go-to's in

00:58:59   restaurant if there's a caesar salad on the appetizer list I'm I oftentimes I

00:59:04   just stop even looking to see what else they have so it's an app you go there

00:59:09   it's an app it's free app you can learn the recipe enjoy it for a lifetime it's

00:59:14   been downloaded in over a hundred countries and has been featured on many

00:59:17   fine blogs and podcasts and it was selected as one of the best new apps on

00:59:22   the App Store by Apple is one of their featured apps it will also be part of

00:59:27   this year's upcoming documentary app the human story now that's that kickstarter project

00:59:33   that started last year great part i'm actually uh i've been interviewed for that documentary too

00:59:41   uh great great thing that's i think getting a lot closer to completion uh so anyway the best

00:59:45   caesar was one of the apps featured in the documentary uh it's available exclusively for

00:59:51   iphone and ipad join tens of thousands of people from around the globe we've been using this app to

00:59:56   learn to make the best Caesar salad. The talk show listeners, here's the deal for you. The

01:00:02   best Caesar is available for free on the App Store. All you have to do is download it and

01:00:06   you will be filled with a burning desire to create your own best Caesar salad. Make it,

01:00:11   share it with your friends, devour it, eat it, take photos of every step of the process.

01:00:17   And you can visit the best Caesars Instagram, Facebook, or Twitter and share your pictures.

01:00:22   you can even pair your meal with a fine wine from our other sponsor. Last bottle

01:00:29   wines, right? Get a bottle of wine, it'll go well with a Caesar salad. Sign up for

01:00:32   both. So satisfy your craving, get this app, learn the recipe. Here's where you go.

01:00:38   www.thebestcsar.com/thetalkshow. So it's the same slug as the other

01:00:47   sponsored the slash the talk show. Caesar is s a e s a r.com.

01:00:53   The best Caesar.com slash the talk show really is a great

01:00:57   talent. I have to say I had a really good idea for the talk

01:01:01   show like a running bit. It could be like a Seinfeld

01:01:04   episode and at the end of every show you could like tell a

01:01:08   story that involves all your sponsors. It could be and just

01:01:11   close it out. It could be tough, but the thing you need

01:01:15   that bass sound at the end.

01:01:19   It would help if we had the Casper mattresses and the Hello Pillows, but we don't as they're

01:01:25   our final two sponsors. But then we could tell a little story about eating a salad,

01:01:29   drinking a whole bottle of wine, and going to take a nap.

01:01:32   Taking a nap.

01:01:34   We finished the whole bottle of wine and we needed a nap. Here's one more. Before we

01:01:41   move on from the watch but this is one that I've been thinking about I have

01:01:47   turned on if you go to settings text and something it's like two things that

01:01:53   don't really seem like they belong in the same settings panel brightness and

01:01:57   text text size I've turned on the option for bold text have you ever tried this

01:02:06   No, I haven't. So I think a lot of people probably haven't who might have because

01:02:11   when you toggle it either way it pops up a dialogue that says hey changing this

01:02:18   setting requires restarting your watch and so that when a first week that I had

01:02:22   it I saw that I was like ah I'll do that later because I don't feel like

01:02:24   restarting the watch right now it takes like two or three minutes for the watch

01:02:27   to reboot. I really like the way it looks and I don't even think that it's an

01:02:35   accessibility issue, although it could be for some, but it's not under general

01:02:41   accessibility, it's under text settings. It's like a legitimate option. I really

01:02:48   like the way it looks. Now the truth is I'm, you know, as we spoke about before,

01:02:51   I'm 42, so my perfectly healthy right eye is already sort of on the beginning cusp

01:02:59   of requiring reading glasses.

01:03:02   And my left eye is a mess.

01:03:05   So part of it is maybe age-related, maybe.

01:03:11   But I kind of like it even when I don't even

01:03:14   have my contacts in and my eyes really can--

01:03:17   I can still see super good up close.

01:03:20   I really like the way the bold text looks.

01:03:23   I really think it looks sort of like the way

01:03:26   that in the classic Mac OS that Chicago

01:03:28   was sort of a bold boldish font I

01:03:31   Just activated it while you were talking and I can see that see I know you're very particular about typography

01:03:38   So I never thought you'd be the guy who who tested that I think you would want the the built-in

01:03:44   But I really love it and especially here's where I especially love the bold text is on watch faces

01:03:51   Not even I feel like it looks a little bit weird when you get like a text and you see the text, you know

01:03:58   I kind of what I would really like to talk about power user features like if

01:04:02   there was an equivalent of like the way you can do like defaults right hacks on

01:04:06   on Mac OS X to get preferences that aren't even available visually what I

01:04:11   would love to do is turn it off everywhere except watch faces and only

01:04:16   have it on watch faces it just what it means is that all the complications have

01:04:20   bolder slightly bolder text it's not like bold it's like switching from a

01:04:25   light-ish version of San Francisco to a like a medium bold semi-bold version of San Francisco

01:04:31   and I feel like it's a really good look and in a way that to me looks a lot like like a lot of

01:04:37   real mechanical watches have fonts on the dial that are of this rough weight you know yeah and

01:04:45   it really and to me it also to go back to the viewing it in sunlight it makes the complication

01:04:50   text easier for me to read in sunlight. Do you think they're going to allow developers to submit

01:04:56   their own watch faces at any point? No, I do not. I really don't because I think that or I think

01:05:05   most likely no. And I think if they do, it'll be a system that runs like the way Apple TV runs today,

01:05:12   where they will be partnerships that are cultivated through Apple, that there is no,

01:05:20   there will, you know, there's an app store already for apps that has thousands of apps from anybody

01:05:26   and everybody. I think if they ever do third party watch faces, it would be like Apple TV,

01:05:31   and it would be a cultivated list that's hand selected and approved by Apple at a very high

01:05:37   level. Yeah, it's like on the pebble they had, you know, it was just it was a crazy I mean, people

01:05:43   had these nutty faces, but then occasionally, someone would do like a really classy futura

01:05:49   based watch face that looked really, really actually better than anything that they had

01:05:53   in their own built-in faces.

01:05:54   Pete: David, you realize you're speaking about Pebble in the past tense.

01:05:57   [Laughter]

01:05:58   David Schanzer... Well, that's true. In my life, it is a past tense at this point.

01:06:02   Pete: You didn't even realize it.

01:06:06   David Schanzer... No, I didn't.

01:06:07   Pete; I have a pre-order in for the Pebble Time. I keep wanting to call it Pebble Color,

01:06:12   which is what I feel like they should have called it, but it's called Pebble Time.

01:06:15   David Schanzer... Yeah.

01:06:16   But the thing that I can tell is gonna be a non-starter, and I feel bad for them.

01:06:22   For me at least.

01:06:23   Maybe some people might really still prefer it.

01:06:26   But for me, the thing that kills it is the fact that the display is so clearly different

01:06:32   from the bezel around the display.

01:06:35   It doesn't matter what to me, whether it's color or not.

01:06:38   To me, it just looks so inelegant.

01:06:39   It looks like you have a little screen strapped to your wrist.

01:06:43   I know it's cheaper, so that's a motivation.

01:06:45   I know you can run it for several days, but the thing, you know, having used one for a

01:06:50   year, just the fact that, you know, then it just didn't stay paired consistently with

01:06:55   an iPhone.

01:06:56   And maybe if you've got an Android device, you're better off.

01:06:59   But with an iPhone, I just found it very inconsistent.

01:07:03   And that was just, you know, frustrating.

01:07:05   So and I don't have that problem at all with the Apple device, of course.

01:07:10   One of the weird things about this--

01:07:15   I hate calling them smartwatches.

01:07:16   Just the new digital watch 2.0 era,

01:07:18   these new computerized digital watches,

01:07:21   is that you don't really have a lot of choice.

01:07:25   It all starts with what phone you use.

01:07:26   And Pebble's trying to straddle these two worlds.

01:07:29   And I wish them the best of luck.

01:07:31   That's why I preordered the time.

01:07:32   I hope that they make it.

01:07:34   And I hope that they--

01:07:35   I feel like we need more companies like Pebble

01:07:39   to succeed.

01:07:39   But I just feel like it's so hard because they're fighting these

01:07:42   Massive massive companies like apple and google who have these resources that are just so hard for them to match

01:07:49   Well, they can't match the resources, but the fact that they can't makes it harder for them

01:07:53   to compete

01:07:56   But like the android wear versus apple watch there's it's not even a debate like whatever, you know

01:08:02   Like if you're if you use an iphone, you know

01:08:05   I I android wear doesn't work with it

01:08:07   And I know there's rumors that they're going to make it work with it, you know, like in

01:08:12   the next month or two at Google I/O.

01:08:14   But it's not going to be the level of integration that Apple Watch has, because they're only

01:08:17   going to be able to do the things that like Pebble can do with iOS, which is all limited

01:08:22   by the App Store restrictions for what an app can do, you know.

01:08:27   And you're going to have this fiddly setup process for Bluetooth where you have to enter

01:08:30   four digit code.

01:08:33   It's just going to be limited.

01:08:35   And if you have an Android phone, you don't even have a choice to use an Apple Watch.

01:08:40   I grew up in the era where you'd be trying to use a Palm Pilot with a Mac or a Tandy—you

01:08:46   remember those Tandy word processor?

01:08:50   All these technology that wasn't Apple-based trying to get to work with Apple, and it was

01:08:55   such a pain that I just have zero tolerance for even trying that stuff at this point.

01:09:00   I mean, if Apple makes both pieces, I'm just going to use them.

01:09:03   the thing that really—I had a handspring visor. My wife had one too, and she probably used it more

01:09:08   than I did, which is pretty interesting because, you know, this was back around '99, 2000. And I

01:09:15   remember it was when I was working at Barebone Software, and my pal Jim Korea, who's now at

01:09:19   the Omni Group, like, he did like the best thing ever. He bought like 25, like, replacement styluses

01:09:25   for the handspring visor. So it was like a jar of candy on his desk, like, you know, just go,

01:09:31   you know, all right, Jim, give me five more.

01:09:33   [laughs]

01:09:33   >> Got one in every pair of jeans.

01:09:35   >> Right, but then you never had to worry about it, because losing your goddamn stylus was—and

01:09:38   I'm pretty careful with my devices, but it was a common problem. But anyway,

01:09:43   syncing your stuff to your Mac was the biggest. I think it was what kept me from—eventually

01:09:48   made me abandon it. And part of the problem, too, is that the Macs of that era didn't really have

01:09:52   standard system databases for things like that. There was no built-in contacts in the classic Mac

01:09:58   was there was no standard contact. So it's like you could sync with something, but it was like a

01:10:02   limited number of third-party options and there was no standard system-wide calendar.

01:10:07   I tell people, because when everybody, somebody gets into the discussion with me about app

01:10:12   pricing, I talk to them about how my PalmPilot, about every month or two, it would just duplicate

01:10:17   all of my contacts. And if I didn't fix it in another month, I would have four copies of every

01:10:24   contact and so on. And somebody made an app and it was $50. And all it did was go out and knock

01:10:30   out duplications. And I was so happy to pay it, you know. And now it's like, oh, this app will

01:10:36   change your life. And it'll be you know, allow you to get your work done and go home earlier.

01:10:40   How much is it? Five bucks? Five bucks? What are you talking about?

01:10:47   It's so true. I think software is crazy. It's like an inverse curve to like the price of a

01:11:01   cup of coffee. The more coffee gets, the less willing people are willing to pay for apps.

01:11:12   Joanna Stern of the Wall Street Journal had a, her column a couple of weeks ago was about

01:11:18   how to fix up your contacts database. You know, that if you, like her, over the years have wound

01:11:27   up, like she had like four entries for her dad, like one was just his email, one was just his

01:11:31   phone number, you know, one, you know, like if you have a relative, like you have an Uncle Bob, but

01:11:37   he's also listed as Robert, you know, and it's two entries, and you know, that there's a bunch of

01:11:41   these utilities that you can buy to fix it all. And I saw in the comments, people were like, "Four

01:11:49   dollars!" But it would save you. It's like her whole thing was like, if you have 500 contacts

01:11:59   and you did it by hand, if these apps can help you, you could easily save an hour. And so,

01:12:05   whose time is not worth four dollars for an hour, or whatever the price is?

01:12:10   Imagine you're on your deathbed and you can say you can live another hour. It cost you four dollars

01:12:15   What are you gonna say? You know, I mean, I don't know. All right. So speaking speaking of hourly billing

01:12:21   Let's talk about you in your career. So you're you're an attorney and you had been

01:12:26   What was what was your practice?

01:12:29   Business, I'm a business attorney. I represent small companies

01:12:33   I've been doing it for 21 years, but um, I was in a law firm the whole time until about two months ago and I

01:12:40   I got out of there, man.

01:12:42   I hit the brakes.

01:12:43   So all of this other stuff that you've been doing,

01:12:45   all the podcasting, the blogging, all the writing,

01:12:47   and all this stuff, has all been on the side of you

01:12:50   being a full-time partner in a law firm.

01:12:53   I was never a partner.

01:12:56   The way it was set up, it just wasn't set up that way.

01:12:58   I was always a full-time lawyer throughout the whole process.

01:13:01   And now you are-- you've not retired,

01:13:07   but you quit that job.

01:13:09   you're doing this stuff full time, but you also have your own new law practice.

01:13:15   Tom Bilyeu: Yeah, it's weird. It's like maybe, looking back, I guess I'll know in a few years,

01:13:21   it's a very public thing when you quit a job that pays well and you've got insurance and all that

01:13:27   stuff. And you're like, "Okay, and I'm going to do that and I'm going to write about the Mac and do

01:13:32   some law stuff too, but I wanted to have more control. And you know, just, you know, as you

01:13:38   get older, you just, that control thing is more important to you. I don't know, maybe at some

01:13:42   point I wanted to be like a big time lawyer in a big time firm, but that's just not me. I like

01:13:47   representing small guys. My clients are, you know, I represent a lot of software developers and I do

01:13:53   contracts for them and stuff like that, you know. So this was something I could have done on my own,

01:13:58   but I just didn't want the overhead. I didn't want any more meetings. I just didn't want all

01:14:02   the stuff that comes with being as part of a big operation. And I've also been doing the Max

01:14:08   Sparky stuff, so I wanted to be able to have more time for that. So I figured out if I worked a

01:14:13   little bit less as a lawyer and a little bit more as Max Sparky, I'd have a better balance in my

01:14:17   life. So I went out and announced that I've done this, and now the whole world can watch me go down

01:14:22   in flames or make it work. I'm not sure. I'm still in that point with you where I'm looking at the

01:14:25   Excel spreadsheet every month. But it feels absolutely the right thing. I mean, I was just

01:14:32   telling my wife, I said, "I've got to make this work because there's no way I could ever go work

01:14:35   for somebody ever again. I've got to make this work." But so far, it's great and I love it. And

01:14:41   the community has been really good to me too. Pete: Jason Kocke and I had dinner a month or so

01:14:46   ago. Actually, it was when I got the review for the Apple Watch. I went to New York the

01:14:51   night before just so I wouldn't have to take the train in the morning. And Jason Kaki and I had

01:14:56   dinner and we were talking about how having been successful at this and having done it for ourselves

01:15:00   full-time for some number of years now has more or less rendered us completely unemployable.

01:15:05   [Laughter]

01:15:06   Pete: I'm already feeling it, brother.

01:15:08   [Laughter]

01:15:08   Jon: I'm certainly well-known and I think that if I needed to get a job, I could certainly find one,

01:15:16   you know, and then I think I would be I would be let go within a day or two, they would be like,

01:15:21   this is this isn't working. Well, one of the things that surprised me about this whole thing was,

01:15:27   I got a lot of new clients from Max Barkie. I mean, people had been listening to me in their

01:15:34   ear, you know, power of podcasting and writing for all these years now, like, hey, I could actually

01:15:39   use you to help me with some stuff. And, and that was a surprise to me, I had no expectation of any

01:15:46   legal business from all this stuff. And so that was kind of nice, but, but it's also given me

01:15:51   more time. So, you know, I'm working from home, I have an office, but I work from home more than I

01:15:57   go into the office. And I love it. I'm, you did a, I think a tweet like years ago, just, you know,

01:16:02   going back, when you said, here's my new work shoes, and you had a pair of slippers. Do you

01:16:06   remember that? I don't know if you probably don't even know I do remember. Every since then that has

01:16:11   stuck in my brain and it's kind of pissed me off. I'm like, "Gruber can have those slippers as work

01:16:16   shoes. I need to find a way to make that work." And hey, I'm there. Man, it feels good. In fact,

01:16:22   I'm going to go buy a pair of slippers. I'm going to call it the John Gruber slippers.

01:16:25   My year of work shoes is, right now I'm in the socks period, just wearing a pair of socks.

01:16:33   but then it'll go to, it'll be flip flops sooner. You know, probably like after WWDC,

01:16:41   it'll be more flip floppy. Then it'll go back to socks, and then it'll go to slippers.

01:16:45   Pete: Yeah. Well, you've got the seasons there. Out here, just bare feet pretty much.

01:16:50   Ted: Yeah. I'm upset though, at the slippers, I think the tweet is a couple years old, and that

01:16:55   it was the best pair of slippers I ever had. And I wore a hole through them. And

01:17:01   And I couldn't, I forget where the hell I bought them,

01:17:06   but I went back and they didn't have them anymore.

01:17:09   And I really wished that I had done,

01:17:11   what I always think I'm gonna do,

01:17:13   which is when I find something like that

01:17:14   that I really like, just pull a Steve Jobs

01:17:16   and buy like 20 of them and put them in a closet,

01:17:18   and then I never have to worry about slippers again

01:17:21   for the rest of my life.

01:17:22   'Cause my feet aren't gonna change size.

01:17:25   - Yeah, exactly, why not?

01:17:27   Although there's a thing of,

01:17:28   Steve Jobs probably had a lot more space

01:17:29   to store things like that.

01:17:30   Yeah, my wife always says that. She's like, "Don't buy more crap."

01:17:35   But I feel like I could take them out of the boxes. I feel like if I could take them out of

01:17:41   the boxes, the slippers, you could put that. You could put them all in one box.

01:17:45   I'm definitely one of those habit people. When I was going into the office every day and I didn't

01:17:52   have court. I had like eight pairs of lands in gray slacks and like 12 blue shirts. And every

01:18:02   day I wear the same thing and everything in the office thought I was such a weirdo. But it just

01:18:06   made so much sense to me just to get out of bed and shower and put that on. That was the uniform.

01:18:12   Pete: I think that the slippers I loved the most were lands end, actually, and then they stopped

01:18:15   making them. And in fact, I go through slippers. This job is so hard, David. I go through slippers

01:18:22   so fast. I've, in fact, I've noticed that the slippers that I've been wearing the last year or two,

01:18:26   now that they're sort of put away for the warm weather, I noticed that they're sort of worn

01:18:33   through. Look—

01:18:35   Ted: Well, you've made the joke about, was it your grandfather who was a coal miner?

01:18:38   Pete: Yeah, my maternal grandfather was a coal miner.

01:18:40   Ted; Mine as well. I mean, he also died of black lung. I mean, it's just, I mean, you stop and

01:18:47   think about it. Or my, you know, my other grandfather, during the Depression, they didn't

01:18:51   have any money, they would go out into the backwoods of Massachusetts and trap Red Fox.

01:18:55   And that's how they ate, and that's how they got by. And I'm sitting here going, "Ah, the font on

01:19:02   this watch." I mean, if he was here, he would just slap me. I know it.

01:19:09   Pete: Well, I think on the one hand, my grandfather would have been, no, I think first he would have

01:19:15   been very very proud because I think it was exactly the you know he personified that American

01:19:21   dream of I want my kids to have a better life than me you know my mom was a registered nurse went to

01:19:27   nursing school uh and her brother was uh he didn't go he went to like a trade school and was into

01:19:33   like electronics like it sort of was you know that the gadget or still does he's you know he's

01:19:38   you know he had like he was like the first guy I knew in my life who he had a video game system

01:19:42   looked up to his TV at the Pong, you know, pre-attard 2600 back in the, I don't know,

01:19:48   '77, something like that. You know, but they, both of them ended up with white collar jobs. Well,

01:19:55   registered nurses, probably hard to call white collar. I mean, that's physical. But it's,

01:20:00   you know, it requires, you know, an education. And it's certainly better than coal mining. And

01:20:06   I think he would have been delighted that his grandson, you know, had a job that is, you know,

01:20:11   like mine. But I don't know that he would have had much tolerance for my complaints about the—

01:20:16   [Laughter]

01:20:17   Pete: Yeah. I come from very blue collar roots too. My dad was actually really concerned when I said

01:20:23   I'm going to go to law school. He's like, "That's going to ruin you." He says, "There's just no way

01:20:27   you'll be able to be a decent person and a lawyer." And it's funny, he was totally honest when he

01:20:33   said it, and it has affected my life in so many ways that concern, it's always in the back of

01:20:39   my head. And, you know, at points in my legal career where I could have jumped right or left,

01:20:44   I had always, you know, I was jumped right because of that statement. You know,

01:20:49   it's interesting how your parents affect you on that stuff.

01:20:51   Pete: Yeah. I had a, I took an Instagram, here, let me put it in here. I took an Instagram the

01:20:55   other week and it, I let it slide. This is like my thing and it's, I get, when I get criticism on

01:21:04   I just have a thick skin and I let stuff slide. But that's the picture I took. And there's a hotel

01:21:11   a couple blocks away here in Philly. It's a real seedy motel. If you look at the Yelp reviews for

01:21:16   it, it's called the Parker Spruce. It's like the type of—it literally is the type of hotel where

01:21:22   you can go in and rent, you know, you can get it by the hour. And it is closing. I didn't know this

01:21:29   this until after I took this picture, but it was a picture of these guys taking mattresses

01:21:34   out of the hotel. And the mattresses from a CD hotel that rents by the hour are really

01:21:43   pretty bad-looking mattresses.

01:21:45   And I thought it was fascinating, but the caption I wrote is, "No one grows up thinking

01:21:50   they'll be one of the guys who disposes of old mattresses from a CD hotel." And a lot

01:21:55   of people in the comments are like, "Wow, what a dicky comment," as though I was making

01:21:58   fun of these guys. And I guess you could read it that way, but that isn't what I meant at

01:22:03   all. Honestly, to me, it was just like a slice of life. And I have nothing but total respect

01:22:08   for these guys. What I thought as I walked past them is I had the thought, like when

01:22:13   I think about my grandfather, I was like, "No, those guys are working for a living.

01:22:16   That's a fucking job, taking those mattresses out of a hotel." And it's May, it's not hot,

01:22:25   But that hotel is not air-conditioned, you know what I mean?

01:22:28   And moving one mattress is hard work.

01:22:30   And these guys are moving, I don't know what it looks like, there's like at least a dozen

01:22:34   of them there.

01:22:36   That's all I meant by it.

01:22:37   I thought it was so weird that people jumped on me as though I was mocking these people.

01:22:41   I just thought like, "Hey, my thought was the people who are going to read this, maybe

01:22:45   this will help you appreciate whatever it is you do that is probably a lot less arduous

01:22:50   than moving mattresses."

01:22:53   so easy to get in trouble on the internet, especially with an audience of your size.

01:22:57   So I don't know, I just let it slide. But anybody who saw that and who thought I was making fun of

01:23:02   them, I really didn't mean it that way at all. I meant it. I mean, the way I kind of, it's like

01:23:07   talking earlier, I mean, you would go back to work for a software developer, if that's what it took,

01:23:12   you know, or, you know, whatever we, I would dig ditches, if that's what it, whatever it takes,

01:23:16   you know, I mean, and, you know, I just think we're lucky that we're able to get by without

01:23:21   happen to do that stuff at this point exactly because i'd be really lousy at digging ditches

01:23:26   speaking of digging ditches uh i'll take a break here and thank our next sponsor hover

01:23:33   you guys know however it's the best place on the internet to register a domain name you need a

01:23:42   domain name you need a new domain name go to hover.com and start searching they've got great

01:23:46   tools to help you search. They've got a great list of all these new top-level domains,

01:23:52   which have really opened a lot of one- and two-word, you know, this, that, dot, whatever.

01:23:58   You know, there's dot finance, dot coffee, dot local. I guess dot local is bonjour. But anyway,

01:24:05   there's a ton of these new top-level domains. I can't even hope to list them all. Hover can help

01:24:10   you get a new domain on any of them. They can help you find a way to get a domain on dot com,

01:24:15   dotnet all the classic tlds i don't even know what you'd call those

01:24:20   but even better than that every every domain registrar helps you register domain names but

01:24:26   hover does it the right way um oh you know we talk about cd i talk about that cd hotel

01:24:34   the top the the domain registrar business is in large part kind of cd it's like the online

01:24:39   equivalent of cd where you go there and uh honestly i'm not going to name names but i can

01:24:44   can think of one that's a big one. You go there and the site is filled with junkie ads.

01:24:50   When you're trying to sign up, there's all sorts of upsells, checkboxes for things that

01:24:57   are checked by default that ought to be off by default or really shouldn't even be an

01:25:00   option at all. Then you find out that if you want DNS privacy so that your personal, your

01:25:06   address and your phone number and et cetera aren't listed out wide open for the internet

01:25:10   for anybody who looks at your DNS records, you have to pay extra for that.

01:25:16   Hover has none of that.

01:25:18   There's no upsells.

01:25:19   There's no junky ads for other third party stuff on their stuff.

01:25:22   All they want to do is help you manage your domain names the right way.

01:25:26   Things like domain privacy, all that stuff.

01:25:29   It's all included.

01:25:31   And they have amazing customer support, truly amazing customer support.

01:25:37   They call it valet service.

01:25:39   So you sign up to be a hover customer and you've got domain names at other registrars

01:25:45   and you're already happy.

01:25:46   You've already, you've seen enough that, you know, yes, I want to move all my domain names

01:25:50   to hover, but I've been registering domain names since 1995 on this, that, and the other

01:25:55   service all over the web.

01:25:57   Just give your stuff, help that, you know, give your, your support rep at hover, the

01:26:01   access to your, these other registrars where you have domains and hovers Valley service

01:26:07   will just move those domains.

01:26:09   They'll do whatever it takes, fill out the forms, send the faxes, whatever has to be

01:26:13   done.

01:26:14   They'll move them all into your Hover account, and then all of a sudden, boom, all of your

01:26:18   domains are all there under Hover with the best interface and the best service.

01:26:24   You don't have to pay for that.

01:26:25   The valet service is just part of being a Hover customer, and it just cleans up a hassle

01:26:30   that could be nagging at you for the last 20 years about, "Hey, I should consolidate

01:26:35   all my domain names in one place."

01:26:38   really great. I have domain names at hover. I know people, everybody I know has some at

01:26:44   hover. Nobody ever like says, you know what, maybe I'll go somewhere else after hover.

01:26:47   Once you go to hover, you're like, why would I ever go anywhere else? So great. Here's

01:26:53   a code that will save you 10% on a domain name at hover, missing links. And that is

01:27:04   in reference to the fact that the link bracelets on the Apple watch haven't shipped yet or

01:27:10   I've only started to ship. So use that code missing links and you will save money and

01:27:16   they'll know that you came from the talk show. So my thanks to hover go to hover.com H O

01:27:22   V E R and use that code missing links and they'll know you came from here. So what else

01:27:32   we got to talk about. I got a new Mac. Yes, I did want to talk to you about that. I got,

01:27:42   you know, pulled in on the new MacBook, the super light 12 inch. All right, you did tell me you got

01:27:48   that. You did not tell me which color I'm going to use my psychic powers. And I'm going to predict

01:27:55   that you purchased space gray you bet you bet i mean i it's something different but it's not gold

01:28:03   so you know uh you know the fact that you can order one i remember when you have to pay extra

01:28:08   for the black one uh definitely the the it was the plastic gear yeah but the uh so that's true

01:28:16   and it's true for the watch right it's talking about the missing links like the space black

01:28:22   link bracelet watch costs more than the stainless steel one now that's not more than just a color

01:28:26   though it's not just anodized that that diamond like what not diamond like carbon what the hell

01:28:31   is it called diamond like carbon coating the dlc coating is a real thing and it actually does add

01:28:37   value you know probably it arguably does add like 100 in value to it but anyway you do have to pay

01:28:42   more for black yeah i i i've you know because of this switch in my life i used to um you know go

01:28:48   go to work for the man every day and I had a 15 inch retina MacBook Pro.

01:28:52   That's the first, the very first retina MacBook Pro.

01:28:54   And it's a great computer and it's, it's a, it's a beast, you know,

01:28:58   in the nice big screen when you're sitting at your desk, eight hours a day is,

01:29:01   is fine, but now that I've switched up, I don't need, I have a retina iMac at

01:29:06   home and I'm working on that a lot and I'm not using the laptop as much, but I

01:29:11   still need one.

01:29:12   So I thought, you know what?

01:29:13   I'm kind of as a second computer, this may work for me.

01:29:17   and I was a little worried about the keyboard.

01:29:20   So I decided to buy one and just see,

01:29:23   they've got a 14-day return policy

01:29:24   and if it's just terrible, I'll take it back.

01:29:26   But I stuck with it.

01:29:28   Now I'm gonna sell the Retina MacBook Pro

01:29:30   and I really like it.

01:29:33   I mean, it's cool having something so light and slim.

01:29:36   The big joke in my life now is Disneyland

01:29:39   because my wife is a complete Disneyland.

01:29:42   I used to be a Jungle Cruise skipper

01:29:43   and I never told her that. - No.

01:29:45   I can totally see that though.

01:29:46   were probably excellent. I was. People waited for my boat. They would say, "I want his boat.

01:29:51   I'll wait." I believe that. I'll tell you someday. I'm going to be at WWDC. Sit down,

01:29:55   and I will tell you some great Jungle Cruise stories. But anyway. You mean John Lasseter

01:30:01   was a Jungle Cruise captain? I do. Of course you do that. I think, I don't think Steve Martin

01:30:06   actually was on the Jungle Cruise. No, I don't think so. Yeah. But yeah, there's actually some

01:30:11   interesting people that are former skippers. It was so much fun. I mean, it was like the greatest

01:30:17   job. And I had it through high school. Even when I was in law school, I would go down there and

01:30:22   work nights because I just needed money. And like the boats would get stuck because at Disneyland,

01:30:27   it's an old ride system and the boats would derail and you'd be stuck out there like 30 minutes. And

01:30:34   you know, you can't do anything. You gotta wait for the guy to come to yank the boat back on the

01:30:38   rail and I'd be like telling people how to break their leases and stuff.

01:30:41   But the, um, you know, it was anyway, so, but now that I'm like, I have more control over my schedule.

01:30:50   My wife wants to go to Disneyland all the time. So I'll drive her up there. And then I like go,

01:30:53   uh, like over to a quiet restaurant with this new laptop and sit there and write contracts for two

01:30:59   or three hours. And, um, I really like it. But anyway, you know, the, the aside is it's, it's

01:31:04   a nice computer. The keyboard, I don't think, is as good as the standard keyboard, but it's good

01:31:10   enough. Well, and I feel like that using typing on the glass for lo these many years has lowered our

01:31:19   standards for what's an acceptable keyboard. Like it's, you know, in my opinion, and again,

01:31:24   I've talked to people at Apple about this and they have said, you know, that for,

01:31:29   you know, like with the iPad, like,

01:31:31   this was around the era when Microsoft Surface first came out

01:31:35   and really kind of hung its hat on the fact

01:31:37   that the cover had a physical keyboard.

01:31:40   And there was a lot of speculation

01:31:42   that Apple might come out with something like that.

01:31:43   Who knows, maybe they still will someday.

01:31:45   Maybe they will with this iPad Pro

01:31:46   that's rumored to be, you know, upcoming.

01:31:48   But the thing I heard from a couple of people at Apple is

01:31:51   you cannot, you cannot overstate just how good

01:31:57   like some kids are today typing on an iPad.

01:32:01   Like kids who just don't have ingrained habits

01:32:04   for physical keyboards are so blazingly fast

01:32:08   typing on an iPad, you just can't believe it.

01:32:10   It's, you know, and that the long, you know,

01:32:12   skating to where the puck is going is not worrying about,

01:32:16   you know, those of us with habits on old clicky keyboards.

01:32:20   - My 18 year old can type on an iPhone as fast as I can,

01:32:25   or probably very close to as fast as I can type

01:32:27   a keyboard as a touch typist. And not only that, she can type on an iPhone while not looking at

01:32:33   the keyboard. I believe it. I totally believe it. And it's, you know, again, it just plays it,

01:32:39   you know, it's a little different than the iPad argument, but not really is it plays into that

01:32:42   argument of, you know, back in 2007 2008, even 2009. As people who are used to Blackberries and

01:32:49   stuff were thinking about switching, they're like, well, you know, when when they come out with the

01:32:53   hardware keyboard, you know, so someone like me who needs to type can type, you know, there's this

01:32:57   assumption that anybody who is getting by on a no physical keyboard iPhone doesn't really type on

01:33:03   it. Whereas the truth is there are people who type lots of stuff on them. They don't type the

01:33:08   traditional method, but they still, and it's not just young people too, you know, oh, Malik types,

01:33:12   a lot of his blog posts on his phone on his iPhone. It does he, you know, I've seen him do it. He,

01:33:18   you know, and he's, I can't say that he's as fast as probably as like a teenager, but,

01:33:23   you know, he's going as fast as he wants to be a writer.

01:33:26   Well, with this computer, the retina screen to me was the big win because I really need a retina

01:33:33   screen. I cannot use a computer without a retina. I've always wanted a slim notebook. In fact,

01:33:40   somebody once loaned me an 11-inch and I tried it for a while and it just the screen I couldn't look

01:33:44   at it. It just bugged me every time I looked at it and this is great. But the really crazy thing

01:33:49   about this computer is I have this external iPhone charger. You know, it's one I got off Amazon. I

01:33:56   think it's, you know, it's a medium-sized charger and I got thinking, I wonder what would happen

01:34:02   because the power is going through the USB. What would happen if I plug the battery into the laptop?

01:34:08   Would the laptop recharge the battery or would the battery recharge the laptop? You know, so I

01:34:15   bought off Amazon a USB-C mail to USB, the old USB standard, whatever it is, A or B cable.

01:34:25   And I just plugged in the battery to the laptop and it charged the laptop, which is awesome.

01:34:31   Sort of like, sort of like one of those Mophie brick type things.

01:34:34   Yeah, it's a, yeah, I have to pull it out, but I mean, it's, I think I paid like 30 bucks for it.

01:34:40   It's like, I'm not even going to try and say what the electronic rating is. I'll look it up in a

01:34:45   minute and tell you. But it's just something that you're supposed to buy to charge your iPad and

01:34:49   your iPhone. You plug it in and it charges up and it's got, I think, two USB ports on it,

01:34:56   female USB ports, and you plug it in and you plug it into your phone. But the thing charges up the

01:35:01   laptop and if the laptop's running, it basically treads water. It doesn't lose power and the

01:35:08   the battery goes out slowly in this thing, but I'm able to add

01:35:12   like five hours of battery life to it. So now I've got that's

01:35:15   kind of in seven hours. Yeah, you know, exactly. And then I

01:35:20   did an experiment where I turned it I ran it down to I think 10%

01:35:23   and then just plug the fully charged battery into it and went

01:35:26   to bed and it's very slow. I mean, it's not like charging

01:35:28   really fast. But when I woke up, it was at like 75% it was like,

01:35:32   so it was able to, you know, put a lot of charge back into the

01:35:37   laptop. So so now I really feel like I can go anywhere because I've got this little battery

01:35:41   and a USB cord and this little light laptop and I can go anywhere in the world and just

01:35:46   work for a long time.

01:35:47   I feel like as time goes on, Apple and Apple's prowess at designing at working with metals

01:35:56   and miniaturizing components grows more and more. You have to see their stuff in person

01:36:05   to get. And I think the watch is a perfect example of it. I mean, they've, you know,

01:36:09   tons of commercials. They have a website that they've had up since September with hundreds

01:36:15   of super high quality photos of the watches, every watch, every band from every conceivable

01:36:20   angle. And I can't tell you how many times I've gotten email from readers and listeners

01:36:25   who said, you know, I was kind of going to wait for 2.0 and then I saw the watch and

01:36:29   I was like, oh my God, I got to get one. I can't believe I didn't order one on April

01:36:32   As soon as they saw it but only when they saw it in person and I feel like yeah difference between the MacBook Airs

01:36:38   or all of the whole MacBook line and

01:36:40   the new MacBook you you have to see them and when you see it in person it I

01:36:47   thought you know, I'm I

01:36:50   I like the idea of a minimal MacBook. I was sort of like maybe I should have I just bought a new 13-inch MacBook Pro

01:36:57   Last year, so I mean, I'm not really in the market to replace it now

01:37:01   But it did make me think hmm

01:37:03   Maybe I should have waited a little longer because that does seem like something, you know

01:37:06   If I have the retina 5k Mac iMac at my desk and I'm only using the MacBook away from it

01:37:11   That seems like great and then I saw it in the store and it was just like it was just like an emotional thing

01:37:16   It's like seeing a sports car, you know

01:37:18   It's like it cuz it's so much smaller and I've I use the 11-inch air for years

01:37:22   Just because I like the idea of the smallest possible notebook that you can with a full-time with a full-size keyboard

01:37:29   You just can't the thing that blew me away was how much it looked more like an iPad with a keyboard than a MacBook

01:37:35   Like it just in terms of portability in size

01:37:38   And you get the Mac operating system, right?

01:37:41   You know still is you know gives you a lot of automation stuff that you just really can't do realistically with an iPad

01:37:48   It's it's great. I love it and I'm very happy with it except I would not sell the keyboard

01:37:55   I you know, the keyboard is different and it's I'm used to it now

01:37:58   It's like there's a there's like a happy medium because if you press too hard on it

01:38:03   You're just draining yourself because there's just not that much travel. So you're like over pressing

01:38:07   But then you start pressing lighter because you don't want to over press and you actually miss keys

01:38:12   You don't you don't get the full, you know throw of the key and there's like a sweet spot in the middle

01:38:17   I think I've got it now, but it took me a few days to kind of get used to it

01:38:20   Yeah

01:38:20   my thing is I've never liked any laptop keyboard and

01:38:23   I've always appreciated that Apple does their best and really does like I remember a couple years

01:38:28   It was obviously a couple years ago because it was Steve Jobs

01:38:30   But at one point they were he was introducing one of the new some new macbook and said something about their keyboard engineers

01:38:36   And he said yes, by the way, we really do have some engineers who all they do his work on keyboards

01:38:41   I appreciate that I can it shows and it's totally not surprising to me that there are some smart guys and

01:38:49   women and Apple who've just dedicated they're just dedicated to making kick-ass keyboards or

01:38:54   making the

01:38:56   Kickest-assest keyboard they can given the size constraints of something like the new MacBook

01:39:01   Yeah, totally appreciate that

01:39:03   I think I could get used to I know that I probably wouldn't like it quite as much as the MacBook Pro which has more

01:39:07   Throw but I like my old 11 that I used for years had less throw than the 13 inch MacBook Pro keyboard

01:39:15   And you know, I got used to it and none of it because nothing compares to a nice desktop keyboard in my opinion

01:39:20   And just the ability to take it anywhere with you

01:39:23   And when it's this light you really can take it anywhere with you and that is something special that that charger by the way

01:39:30   Look it up. It's an anchor. I got it off Amazon. It's a

01:39:33   12,800 milliamp hour

01:39:36   Charger and it's I can't I just can't get over that. That's the main brand anchoring

01:39:43   800 milliamp. All right, I'll look it up and try to put it in the show notes. Yeah, but just the fact that

01:39:48   An iPhone charger can charge my laptop and and like add hours to it is crazy

01:39:54   You know, but uh, that's where we are now. Yeah, I do I do think it gets it, you know

01:40:00   Everybody digs on it

01:40:01   there was an article that said the processor matches like the

01:40:04   2011 MacBook Air which may be accurate at least the I got the upgraded one. I didn't get the entry

01:40:10   I got the second tier but the

01:40:12   but I don't think those articles are really fair to it in terms of like memory access and the SSD speed because it works fine.

01:40:20   I'm not using it to do Final Cut or iBooks author. I'm using it for things like, you know, OmniFocus and and word processing and email and Safari and stuff.

01:40:30   And it's just fine for that stuff.

01:40:32   It's, I don't know, again, I just feel, and I feel like as much as you, if you're torn

01:40:43   before you see it, it's like, I feel like once you see them in person, any kind of debate

01:40:47   in your head is settled.

01:40:48   And it's like, you can tell yourself in the abstract that, you know, maybe, you know,

01:40:52   I'll just wait a couple years before I get a retina screen on my MacBook.

01:40:56   I'll just get the MacBook Air because I want more, I want a couple of USB ports or I want

01:41:01   or I want the extra performance, you know, the way that the 13-inch MacBook Pro or MacBook Air is still faster than this new MacBook.

01:41:08   Go see it in person. I'm telling you, it's like you just get this emotional appeal.

01:41:12   And to me, the MacBook Airs look suddenly look so dated in the Apple Store, like the non-retina screen.

01:41:19   And it's funny because I've been depressed about the fact, like the vision problems that I have.

01:41:23   And I've been thinking like all my life I've been waiting for like retina.

01:41:26   retina and I've always known it was coming that we'd get these displays that have like print quality resolution and it's like that's when I

01:41:33   Turned, you know hit the 40s and my vision starts to go and then I have this thing with my left eye and so good

01:41:37   It's like you know what though? It's like it actually is the opposite

01:41:39   It's like the retina screens actually help, you know, like the fact that my vision isn't so good

01:41:43   It's not that I can't appreciate it the way I would if everything had gone retina like in my 30s or let alone my 20s

01:41:50   God, I would have been amazing when my eyes were fantastic and I could see everything super super tiny

01:41:56   But even with problems it looks better. It's like I can totally tell

01:41:59   You know looking at a non-retina screen. It's it just looks it. It's gross in my opinion

01:42:05   Yeah, and I I've got this theory that you know the MacBook Air is

01:42:10   Is gonna go well, I think it's definitely

01:42:13   You know it's just I mean just like when the MacBook Air came out the MacBook at the time eventually went away

01:42:21   eventually the new MacBook is going to become the standard machine and then the MacBook Air is going

01:42:26   to become I think I think the formula is very simple and I think a lot of people have over

01:42:31   thought this I think it's simply the fact that the entry level price once it goes down it really

01:42:38   can't go back up and the entry level price for a Mac laptop has dropped to $899 and that was a

01:42:46   a couple of years ago when they first added the $899 11-inch MacBook Air, right?

01:42:52   Yeah, it's been a while. But there's a reason why they haven't dropped it further.

01:42:58   And part of the reason is that Apple just doesn't compete low-end. But I think it's so that when

01:43:05   they make a transition like this, they don't have as far to go to catch up. And I feel like the

01:43:10   the MacBook Airs go away as soon as they can sell the current entry-level

01:43:16   MacBook One or whatever we want to call it you know the MacBook One port for

01:43:20   $899. Yeah so I feel like you know a year from now they'll come out with new

01:43:26   MacBook Ones with new specs at the price that it's at right now and they can sell

01:43:31   the one they already are making right now for $899 and then at that point the

01:43:35   MacBook Air goes away but they can't do it. They couldn't do it now because

01:43:38   they couldn't just say all right you know you used to be able to buy a macbook air for 8.99 but now

01:43:43   it starts at 11.99 and even just the way they named it tells you that's exactly in fact it's

01:43:49   almost like the biggest telegraph strategically you know of their future strategy um that i can

01:43:57   ever think of from a name or in fact though the entry price is 12.99 so it's even higher so it's

01:44:02   it's got a ways to go i could even see them doing it maybe maybe if they could get it to 9.99

01:44:08   I could see them sort of and maybe what they would do at that point is

01:44:12   Is drop the 13 inch MacBook Air and only keep the 11 inch around?

01:44:19   at 899

01:44:22   like maybe phase out the 13 inch first and

01:44:24   Only key and and only keep one model of the 11 inch around which is the 899 one if they could you know

01:44:31   Once they can drop this one to 999, but that's the only thing holding them back

01:44:35   They're there and they have usually they have no sympathy for the people who need to USB ports or whatever

01:44:40   no, and

01:44:43   Usually they they're pretty eager to get rid of old stuff

01:44:46   But then I look at they're still selling MacBook pros with spinning discs in them. So I'm kind of surprised

01:44:51   Those are still on the market. Yeah, it's funny what they're willing to keep around at the entry level

01:44:54   I'm not sure what the market at this point is for the the spinning disc MacBook MacBook Pro

01:45:02   Yeah, I gotta feel like that might be

01:45:04   Of all the of all the devices in the Mac line that so there's only the 13 inch, right?

01:45:11   Or do they have a 15 inch - yeah, there is no 15 inch with a spinning display or spinning disk

01:45:16   Somebody's only this education

01:45:18   But my guess with the education if they're gonna buy a Mac would be at the 11 or the 13 inch MacBook Air entry

01:45:24   Yeah, I just don't see what the appeal is of that 13 inch entry-level MacBook Pro. It cost 1099. I

01:45:30   I just don't see what the appeal is of carrying all that extra weight around for something.

01:45:35   I guess it has better graphics than the MacBook Air. I don't know.

01:45:38   Some people, I'd say probably mainly non-geek people, are very concerned about the loss of the

01:45:46   optical drive. They're like, "I want to watch my DVDs on the airplane," or whatever, and they'll

01:45:51   buy whatever Mac lets them do that. I guess that's it? I don't know. That seems crazy to me, though.

01:45:59   at least it seems un-Apple-like to me for them to be worried about that.

01:46:03   Yeah. Because I don't know, spinning disks, it just seems, you know, the only reason that you

01:46:09   have a spinning disk is to, you know, rip your stuff to digital format. Yeah. SSD transition,

01:46:18   and I'm old enough to have remembered the floppy, the hard drive transition years ago.

01:46:24   Yeah, right, we're with you. And then just a few years ago, when we went to SSD, it felt to me like

01:46:28   every computer just got way better I mean if you're listening and you haven't

01:46:32   put an SSD in your computer yet that is like the go-to and it's not that SSDs

01:46:37   can't fail I mean of course not I mean any all disks fail eventually and you

01:46:41   know corruption can happen because of software not just hardware but the the

01:46:46   stability of SSDs versus and reliability versus hard drives it's just night and

01:46:51   day it's just the craziest you know and the end of the worst part is of all the

01:46:56   things that can fail if people don't have good backup. And we could do a whole show

01:47:00   about backups. I know Mac Power users, you guys are... Rightly so. If there's anything

01:47:04   to be religious about, it's having good backup policies in place. Duplication, triplication.

01:47:12   But let's face it, a lot of people don't. And if there's anything that's going to fail,

01:47:16   it's a spinning hard drive. And it's the worst thing to fail because it's the thing that

01:47:20   could cause you to lose the stuff you care about most.

01:47:22   I imagine myself like as this like gray haired old geek talking to some young geek and explain,

01:47:28   yeah, it was spinning 7200 revolutions per minute. And it had a little needle that would touch it.

01:47:35   And if it didn't touch in the right place, all of your data was lost. I mean, they're just going to

01:47:40   look at us like, you know, we're driving model. It's a marvel that they work as well as they do.

01:47:45   Truly is a mechanically it's a mechanically a marvel that it works as well as it does. But

01:47:51   you know, if you think, "Wow, that seems like something that might fail frequently." Well,

01:47:56   you're exactly right. Yeah, I totally think that. Now, more I'm staring at this 13-inch MacBook Pro,

01:48:01   and I cannot believe that it's actually a current, like a device that you can buy.

01:48:05   I wonder if that's a difference between new Apple and old Apple. I wonder if they're more willing

01:48:11   to keep stuff a little bit longer. Yeah, it's not, you know, the MacBook Pro line isn't too

01:48:15   complicated, but it just sticks out a little bit, and I'm not quite sure what the market is for that.

01:48:20   have you tried just switching gears have you tried the photos app have you tried this whole thing

01:48:27   now you know what that's a great thing let's close out the show talking about photos but before we do

01:48:32   i have i have to thank our last sponsor um and it is our good friend uh our good friends at fracture

01:48:40   you guys know fracture they are one of the biggest supporters of this show uh i love them to death

01:48:46   They have a great product.

01:48:48   What they do is they take your photos.

01:48:50   You take photographs on your iPhone, take them on your camera, whatever you want to

01:48:54   do.

01:48:55   You take them, you send them to Fracture.

01:48:57   They print them directly on glass.

01:48:59   I don't know how the hell they do it.

01:49:01   They've got some kind of proprietary apparatus that they take your digital photos, print

01:49:06   them directly on the surface of glass, right there on the glass, and then they ship them

01:49:11   to you and these fantastically clever things that are packaging material.

01:49:16   It's like a box that protects it in shipment because it is glass in there.

01:49:21   And then you open it up and the cardboard that's in there is the apparatus you need

01:49:26   to do something like hang it on a wall, prop it up on your desk, put it on your mantle,

01:49:32   anything you would want to do.

01:49:33   They have an enormous variety of sizes.

01:49:37   from little 3x3 type things to giant 23x29 inch wall size poster size sizes

01:49:49   everything from small to large really great quality cannot emphasize even with

01:49:55   iPhone pictures cannot emphasize just how well that the you know I know

01:50:00   megapixels is overrated as a camera quality thing but we've gotten to the

01:50:03   point where like 8 megapixel pictures you can blow them up really big and they

01:50:07   look great. What's their size? I'm looking at their site right now. So their large is

01:50:12   15.6 inches by 20.8 and they have an extra large that's 22 by 29. So really big. You

01:50:20   can go really, really big. They've also got square sizes. So if you've got, you know,

01:50:24   and let's face it, we're just talking about Instagram. A lot of us are framing our pictures

01:50:27   as squares right now. Squares go up to 23 by 23. They've got 11 by 11, five by five.

01:50:34   really great for Instagram type pictures or pictures you've framed, you know, as a square.

01:50:40   Cannot say enough about the quality of their stuff and how fun it is to get it and to actually

01:50:44   see your photos somewhere other than on a glowing screen to just hang it on a wall and

01:50:49   appreciate it. Father's Day is coming up. You can order them in advance. Really, it's

01:50:54   just a no brainer that we don't have to think about it. You really don't. It's like the

01:50:57   greatest. It sounds lazy, but I'm telling you, it's the greatest because your relatives love

01:51:02   getting pictures of family members. It seems really personal. It's the easiest thing in the

01:51:06   world to do. So go check them out. Really, really great stuff. They've got a deal for

01:51:13   the talk show listeners. You go to their website, fractureme.com. fractureme.com. Use the code

01:51:22   daring fireball, all one word, daring fireball, and you'll save 15% off any order. And the prices

01:51:29   are great already, but you can save more just by being a listener of the show. You guys are

01:51:34   ordering these things like crazy. I can't appreciate it enough. That's why Fracture keeps coming back to

01:51:38   sponsor the show again. Keep it up, but I cannot say highly enough how much I personally endorse

01:51:44   their product. It's just terrific. So my thanks to them. I heard Mark Arment talking about how

01:51:51   he had his apps done in Fracture. And so I had all my books done because I've written several books,

01:51:57   and I had them done with fracture prints, but because I'm a narcissist, I hung them downstairs

01:52:01   in my family room. So when everybody comes from my house, they see this wall of book covers, and

01:52:06   I don't know, I can't help myself, but man, they look good. It makes me happy.

01:52:11   Just to look good.

01:52:11   Yeah, maybe I shouldn't emphasize photos, but it really does work well with images of any kind. I

01:52:16   know I've been in Marco's office and I've seen his apps and they look great. They really do.

01:52:21   app icons are so big. Somebody pointed out recently, but like a retina app icon, the

01:52:29   assets for it take up more space than would have fit on a high density floppy disk. Like,

01:52:34   so you couldn't have even fit an app icon on a floppy disk.

01:52:37   Yeah. It's so easy to say back in my day.

01:52:41   Talking about that transition from floppies to hard drives.

01:52:45   All right. So photos, this was another reason I wanted to have you on the show.

01:52:50   So the last episode, I think just exactly what I said, episode 255 of Mac Power Users,

01:52:59   great episode. You and Katie go really long on the new photos for Mac and the whole iCloud

01:53:06   photo syncing thing. So we don't have to repeat it here. It's a great, if anybody out there who

01:53:11   hasn't listened to Mac Power Users, great episode, really great introduction to the show. And if

01:53:15   if you're interested in the details. But long story short, I think all of us were kind of skeptical.

01:53:22   Well, that's the story. It seems to me like everybody for years has been saying Apple

01:53:27   can't do cloud services. That's their weak spot. It's never going to happen.

01:53:31   And they released this Photos app, and they've got the iCloud Photo storage. And granted,

01:53:37   you have to pay for it, assuming you have a decent number of photos. And I knew the new Photos app

01:53:43   would handle libraries better than iPhoto did. I mean, I always had the impression for the last

01:53:47   year or two that they had moved their engineering resources to something new and photo iPhoto was

01:53:52   kind of lingering, but whatever the new thing was going to be, it was going to display your photos

01:53:56   just fine on your Mac. But the big question mark to me was, will this iCloud photo thing work? And

01:54:02   when I make a photo on my phone, will it show up on my Mac and iPad? No problem. And will all this

01:54:07   magic stuff they showed off last year come true. And you know, in my opinion, it did.

01:54:14   Damned if they didn't pull it off.

01:54:15   Yeah. And nobody's talking about it really. I mean, I mean, we've talked, we did a show on it.

01:54:20   We've got a lot of people listening to our show. I've done this field guide on it. And I've only

01:54:25   had like a couple people complaining about performance or cloud sync. I mean, there are

01:54:30   a lot of people hitting this thing hard with like 30,000 photo libraries. And it's working.

01:54:35   I think that the skepticism was actually twofold. First is general skepticism about

01:54:40   Apple and cloud-based anything. And then second is that when it comes to photos,

01:54:45   I think so many people had burned out on iPhoto and had run up to the performance limits.

01:54:52   Bottom line, I don't know where the line is. And I guess it probably depends a little, maybe even on

01:54:58   the size of the photos, like what kind of camera you're using to take the photos you're putting

01:55:01   in there, but at a certain reasonable level of photos. Not like, "Oh, wow, that's abnormal."

01:55:07   And it's probably just combined with the fact of how long digital cameras have been a thing,

01:55:13   right? So iPhoto comes out in the early 2000s with iLife and the digital hub strategy of Apple,

01:55:21   and everybody's only got hundreds of photos, or a thousand, or two thousand. And now we're in the

01:55:27   2010s and everybody everybody might have 10,000 photos and iPhoto wasn't dealing with that well

01:55:34   and you know it's scrolling problems performance problems it just and everybody would you know

01:55:39   there was a vibrant third-party market for little utilities that would help you split up your

01:55:46   iPhoto library you know and switch between different libraries because um you know just

01:55:53   keeping all your photos in one big library wasn't working technically. But the whole idea,

01:55:58   and so that's a great workaround, but the whole idea of having to manage all these libraries

01:56:02   defeated the whole purpose of iPhoto in the first place, which is supposed to be that, you know,

01:56:06   hey, you're not supposed to just throw out, here's a place where you throw all your photos.

01:56:10   And that's what photos, the new photos promised. And I think people were skeptical about that.

01:56:16   But I think the truth is that, you know, quietly in the midst of all this hubbub about the watch,

01:56:22   Apple has solved a massive long-standing problem.

01:56:26   Yeah, and it works. I mean, I just, because I was running it in the beta and I was thinking, well,

01:56:32   it's the beta. There's not that many people hitting the server, blah, blah, blah.

01:56:36   But when it released, my wife's library is even bigger than mine and it uploaded fine and it's,

01:56:41   you know, it just works. So I'm really happy to see that, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of

01:56:47   smart people at Apple that knew that they had this reputation and this was something they needed to

01:56:51   deliver on. But it really does. So I got excited about it and we did a whole show on it. And

01:56:59   I mean the reason, the weird thing is I was going to write a book about, I was going to write a book

01:57:04   called "Photo Management" for Mac and iOS. And I had a whole, I have an OmniOutliner, it's full of

01:57:10   ideas and Dropbox and all these third-party services and it's a great, would have been a

01:57:15   great book. But then I started using photos, I'm like, heck with this, there's no book here. I mean,

01:57:20   just use photos. Do you think, and that's not true for the pros, I mean,

01:57:24   I'm, you know, there's edge cases, but for most people this will solve your problem.

01:57:29   I do think that there is, you know, if there's a complaint to be had, it's that Apple's public

01:57:36   statement is, I'm paraphrasing, but that they're no longer developing Aperture or iPhoto in favor

01:57:44   of they're going all in on photos for Mac. This is their new photo solution.

01:57:48   And I think the truth of it is that it falls somewhere in between. It is a better,

01:57:56   it's certainly better at handling a large number of photos without question. I don't see how anybody

01:58:01   could deny that. Way better. To me, it's an objective statement, not a subjective one.

01:58:07   Way better than handling a large number of photos than iPhoto ever was. I think subjectively,

01:58:13   it is better at editing photos. You know, the tools like cropping and adjusting the...

01:58:17   Pete: I would almost say in comparison to iPhoto, it is objectively better because

01:58:24   like changing the amount of light in an image, just turning up exposure doesn't do exactly that.

01:58:31   It screws up other things. Whereas in this case, if you turn up to make an image to add more light,

01:58:37   it turns down shadows, it does a whole bunch of stuff at once to make it better. So they're

01:58:42   bringing like having more professional editing abilities and that you don't get with iPhoto.

01:58:47   I'd say it's even better for that. Although you don't get the local changes like in

01:58:51   aperture, you could locally, you know, increase the light in one section of the picture or not.

01:58:56   And you can't do that anymore. But I think, you know, if you're a pro user, then and you

01:59:01   really loved aperture, you're probably not going to be happy. No. And, you know, I know that there's

01:59:06   a lot of them out there. I know that or even if you're, you know, semi pro prosumer, whatever you

01:59:10   you want to call it. I know that there's a lot of people out there who honestly evaluated

01:59:16   both Lightroom and Aperture and preferred Aperture. And I'm a long time Lightroom user,

01:59:22   but not like in a pro sense, just like a total pro, very much on the sumer side of prosumer.

01:59:27   But I like Lightroom and I know that it's sort of got like a funky UI, but I like it.

01:59:32   And to me, it's not like an Adobe UI. It's like just a unique UI that I thought was very

01:59:36   really like it but I totally can see why I even as a non-professional photographer I can see the differences in aperture and Lightroom and I can see why people preferred aperture and those people are kind of left with the short end of the stick here because photos doesn't do enough for them and they already had decided that they didn't like Lightroom as much as aperture

02:00:00   - Yeah, yeah.

02:00:02   Well, I mean, it just seemed like that's kind of a trend

02:00:04   for the people who are using the Pro apps

02:00:06   from App lately.

02:00:07   I mean, they're aiming lower, I think,

02:00:10   the fat middle or whatever they call it.

02:00:13   But for most people, I mean,

02:00:16   'cause, and I think that,

02:00:17   and I totally acknowledge those people

02:00:19   are not gonna be happy, but for so many people,

02:00:23   such a great many more people,

02:00:25   they were completely baffled by what to do with their photos

02:00:28   because they're taking hundreds of pictures at one event

02:00:31   on their phone and they just leave them on their phone

02:00:33   or they figure out how to get it onto their Mac

02:00:36   or their, and they've got a folder somewhere

02:00:39   and it's not backed up and they can't access it.

02:00:42   And it's just completely crazy.

02:00:45   And whereas with this new system,

02:00:46   we were at a family party and someone was talking

02:00:49   about something that funny that happened in 2006.

02:00:52   And I was able to pull up a picture of it on my phone

02:00:54   and it just like blew their mind.

02:00:57   - It is true, I find that the way that they automatically,

02:01:01   you know, the interface that they've come up with,

02:01:06   this sort of years, you know, and at the years level,

02:01:09   it's clearly, you can't see what the details are,

02:01:13   but that if you just remember

02:01:15   when something happened vaguely, you can go back there,

02:01:18   and you know, you remember it was sometime in August,

02:01:22   we went, you know, we went on a cruise in August of 2009

02:01:25   whatever. So go back to 2009, go down to about where August is, you probably see a lot of blue

02:01:31   because you're, you know, in the ocean, and just start zooming in there, and you're going to find

02:01:35   that photo. Yeah, I was surprised how well it worked on the Mac, because it seemed like a great

02:01:40   interface for an iPad or an iPhone. And I think, well, I'm not sure if that's the best thing to do

02:01:44   on a Mac. But when I started playing with it, you know, really, it is pretty nice, you can just

02:01:49   scroll, you can see the year, you know, a year is maybe a two or three inch block of very, you know,

02:01:54   small thumbnails. And so you can go back years very easily. And having been in iPhoto with the

02:02:01   crazy lag time for so long, it feels like jumping into a sports car. I do think too that it plays

02:02:09   into something that I've been saying for a while now that Apple, and I know people sometimes over

02:02:14   use the word quietly, like the Apple quietly blank. But I do think that they've sort of quietly become

02:02:22   but not by luck, not that they backed into it,

02:02:27   but purposefully have become arguably

02:02:31   the leading camera company in the world.

02:02:33   Or certainly without question,

02:02:36   one of the leading camera companies in the world,

02:02:38   that they make devices.

02:02:39   Now they just happen to be iPhones and iPads,

02:02:42   but they make devices that people use

02:02:44   as their primary cameras, or if not their primary,

02:02:48   it's an important camera to their life.

02:02:52   And part of that is more than just--

02:02:55   in today's world, it's more than just taking the photos.

02:03:00   It is everything that happens after them,

02:03:03   having them in a place where you can instantly share them

02:03:07   and having them be organized.

02:03:10   And the whole idea, the old school way--

02:03:13   I mean, you still need to do it if you're taking photos with a third party

02:03:16   camera, a standalone camera.

02:03:18   need to connect it by USB or pop the card out and put it in your computer and import them.

02:03:25   But the idea that you need to do anything more than that to have them everywhere is just a

02:03:30   non-starter, or at least in terms it should be. And now with photos, it kind of is.

02:03:34   Yeah, I cannot get over how little has been made of this, but it just seems to me like this is a

02:03:43   really good sign that you know apple can figure out the cloud and they can do big data this way

02:03:49   i think part of it is that institutionally i think it is truly an important thing to them i really do

02:03:53   and i think it's one of those things where there's a lot of people that apple all the way up to the

02:03:57   highest levels um who are you know pretty serious about their photography i mean phil schiller is

02:04:02   definitely serious about photography i mean i know that for a fact like as a hobby you know it's

02:04:07   you know he lists it like tour it's like he's got like two or three things in his twitter bio it's

02:04:11   like Apple cars and Apple cars, sports and photography or something like that.

02:04:15   It's interesting about the iPhone as a camera though, you know, when you first had pictures on

02:04:22   the iPhone, definitely a point and shoot was a better camera. And now that's not the case anymore.

02:04:28   And I've got a mirrorless SLR, you know, it's not a super nice one, but it's nice.

02:04:33   And it takes better pictures than the iPhone. At this point, I have the Olympus PL5.

02:04:40   and I bought that 20 millimeter pancake lens with it and it's a 1.7 I believe and that's all I ever

02:04:47   use I just use that pancake lens it's great but the um I'm getting to the point where I um that

02:04:53   I don't even use that that 20 on that though is in 35 millimeter equivalence is probably

02:04:58   like a like 40 okay yeah yeah yeah it's pretty tight but the um but you know just the 1.7 is

02:05:07   great you know you get a nice blurry background the 50 though is the classic lens though like if

02:05:11   you know like the old school advice on how do you learn to be a photographer is you get a 50

02:05:15   millimeter prime and put it on your camera and then pretend like it doesn't come off

02:05:19   yeah i had i called it the nifty 50 i had on my old can't yeah can't 80 by 80 bucks great market

02:05:26   yeah it's like 90 dollars a 90 dollar lens new from canon and you could get the japanese version

02:05:32   that doesn't really have the US warranty for 80, which is what everybody did.

02:05:36   I got the, a friend of mine had the 1.4. It was $300, but he sold to me used. I got it cheap.

02:05:42   And I'm in Orange County, Canon's national repair facility is in Irvine. And like, it's like 80

02:05:51   bucks and they'll fix the lens. And I had like that, the lens broke like two or three times,

02:05:55   because every time I let somebody else use the camera, they would start cranking it like it was

02:05:58   a zoom and just do something to it but the um but now i got tired of carrying the big one so i got

02:06:05   the olympus and now i'm getting at the point where i almost use the phone exclusively it's not because

02:06:10   i mean the pictures are close enough for most things and having the geo data and everything

02:06:16   there and having it already in my library the moment i take it to me are becoming so convenient

02:06:20   that it's it's taking over the thing for me is that it's um my my my photos have always been

02:06:27   or at least in the iPhone world, post-iPhone world, I've always had two collections of photos.

02:06:34   The photos that I took with my regular cameras, which used to be an iPhoto years ago, for the last,

02:06:39   I don't know, 10 years have been in Lightroom, and then my iPhone photos, which have been on my

02:06:44   iPhone. And I never bothered to put my iPhone photos into Lightroom because it just didn't seem

02:06:54   worthwhile and I didn't want to take them off. I wanted to keep them on the phone. And now in the

02:06:58   new world, it goes both ways. I not only have my iPhone photos on my Mac, but I have any photos

02:07:04   that I took, you know, that I take with a regular camera just magically show up on my iPhone.

02:07:09   Well, it seems like they've solved a big problem for people.

02:07:11   Yeah. And I don't—I feel like we're not, you know—and again, it's just the way human beings

02:07:16   are. We're way more likely to spend time complaining about what isn't right than we are praising what

02:07:20   what goes what goes well but I really do feel that the photos thing you know you

02:07:26   can add a finally if you want but I really do feel like it's kind of gone

02:07:30   unheralded and it really and I know it's not perfect I'm sure that there are

02:07:33   people out there listening who had something go wrong during the initial

02:07:36   upload or the import or whatever but for the most part I think it was a really

02:07:41   clean launch and I think it worked really well and it continues to work

02:07:44   really well and the thing I know one time that I was blown away is took a

02:07:47   taking screenshots with my watch and you take a screenshot with your watch and then it shows up

02:07:51   on your phone, you know, almost instantly, at least in most cases by the time I unlock the phone,

02:07:57   it's already there. And when I want to send it to somebody but I'm on my Mac, I usually take

02:08:02   the screenshots on my phone and like airplane them to myself to the Mac and then put it into

02:08:07   chatter or email or whatever. And then like a week ago, I was like, "Hey, maybe they just show,

02:08:11   I guess they're supposed to show up in the Photos app." And if you leave the Photos app running,

02:08:16   they just show up. It's so great. Well, it's like when I was doing my wife's 36,000 photo upload,

02:08:22   I figured the whole network was going to be crashing. And at the same time, I did,

02:08:26   I did, instead of writing the book, I did a video, I did this big video on photos. And

02:08:30   so I was testing it and I'm literally like making corrections on my iPad. And I've got my MacBook Pro

02:08:38   open there while I'm doing the corrections and they show up almost immediately as soon as I

02:08:43   finish the correction. And it's like that's another thing that to me is super useful now,

02:08:48   because I can use my iPad and sit in front of the TV and like everybody, when I go to a family event,

02:08:53   I shoot like 200 pictures, of which really 20 are the ones I should keep. But I never have time to

02:08:59   go through and sort that out. So I ended up keeping all these pictures. And now I'm going

02:09:02   back to these old events. And just like with the iPad, it's very easy to see them and pick the ones

02:09:07   you want to keep and the ones you want to delete and even make cropping adjustments and little

02:09:10   things like that with your finger. I mean, it's the whole process now is easier. And I don't know,

02:09:16   I'm just really happy to see it. I was worried if I had one worry about Apple over the last few years,

02:09:22   it seemed like they had this hole with cloud services. And obviously everything's heading

02:09:27   that direction in a lot of ways. And it seemed like they, I don't know, you know, there's a

02:09:32   perception of institutional arrogance or that they feel like, well, we're making so much money with

02:09:36   this other stuff. We don't have to worry about that. I was worried that one day they were going

02:09:40   going to wake up and be irrelevant because they never got the cloud figured out.

02:09:45   And this to me is like a really great sign that they understand that.

02:09:50   I've got a lot of chores ahead of me on the photo front because I'm not all in.

02:09:53   I've still got my last 10 years of photos, they're all still in Lightroom.

02:09:57   And I think what I'm going to want to do is export everything.

02:10:00   Maybe I'll, you know, I've got the space.

02:10:02   I'll keep, I'm not going to like delete the Lightroom library, but I want to export everything

02:10:07   then imported into photos and have it there.

02:10:11   But one thing I'm not sure about, maybe hopefully you

02:10:13   can answer it, is what goes on when you shoot RAW

02:10:17   and you import on a real camera, like your Olympus?

02:10:21   You shoot RAW.

02:10:21   Do you shoot RAW?

02:10:24   Not anymore.

02:10:24   I used to.

02:10:25   All right, well, what if you did?

02:10:26   If you shoot RAW and you--

02:10:27   It'll take RAW.

02:10:28   And then what syncs over to your iOS devices?

02:10:33   Does iPhoto take care of creating JPEG thumbnails?

02:10:37   - The way it works is,

02:10:39   the thumbnails you're getting are super small.

02:10:42   That's the reason why you can see your whole library

02:10:44   on your 16 gigabyte phone.

02:10:46   And then when you tap on one of them,

02:10:48   it hits the internet and it pulls down a bigger version.

02:10:52   But it's not gonna pick down,

02:10:54   like if you're looking on your phone screen,

02:10:55   it's still going to optimize when it downloads the image.

02:10:59   At least this is the way it was explained to me

02:11:00   in a way I discovered.

02:11:02   So you're never going to get the full size image downloading

02:11:06   to your phone.

02:11:07   I don't believe there's any way to do it.

02:11:09   They're going to be paying attention.

02:11:10   What if you have two Macs, though, and you're willing to--

02:11:14   I know there's a setting.

02:11:15   I forget what they call it.

02:11:16   But there's a setting that's like optimized photo storage.

02:11:19   And what that does is it means, do you really

02:11:22   want all of your photos here locally and in the cloud?

02:11:25   Or do you just want to have these thumbnails

02:11:27   and we'll pull them down on demand?

02:11:29   And I know on your last episode, you had the good advice

02:11:31   on at least one of your Macs, you should definitely have it so that your whole library is there. Just

02:11:37   it in the name of duplication. So that, yeah, as much as I like it, I don't want to give Apple

02:11:43   everything in the cloud and just say it's safe. Right. Because why not have it both places just

02:11:47   in case the server, you know, that something happens on the iCloud photo storage and your

02:11:51   photo library on in the iCloud gets corrupted. Well, you've still got your photos on your Mac,

02:11:57   and then you can re-upload just in case, right? Murphy's law. But what if you have two Macs and

02:12:02   you want both Macs to have your full collection? If you import raw on Mac A, does Mac B get the raw

02:12:08   image too? I don't know. I don't know. I haven't tested that. I know that Mac, if both Mac A and

02:12:16   Mac B are downloading all images, you're going to get, I believe, full-size images on both Macs.

02:12:21   I would assume that you get the raw image, but I'm not certain.

02:12:25   Yeah, I'm thinking you do.

02:12:25   That's a good question because like for edits you'd want the raw version wherever you're doing and I'm you know, and I'm wondering where the

02:12:32   Like your iPad is only gonna get a JPEG

02:12:36   Even you know and even when you pull it down and get the full version of it

02:12:41   I'm just wondering where that JPEG gets created

02:12:43   Does it get created on the cloud or does it create it on your Mac?

02:12:46   While it's uploading to the cloud and I'm kind of suspecting that maybe it gets created on your Mac

02:12:51   Which is why that upload process is CPU intensive not just network intensive

02:12:57   Yeah, and when you think about the fact that you can crop the the downloaded version on your iPad

02:13:04   But it's still gonna crop the full version on your Mac. I mean there was some serious engineering work done to make all that happen

02:13:10   Definitely. I mean this was not easy

02:13:13   Trying to think what else anything else you want to talk about this week

02:13:19   No, man, it's uh, it's all good. It's been it's been a pretty exciting couple months. I people don't like apples

02:13:25   I totally agree and it's you know, and and here we are heading right into WWDC which is you know

02:13:29   You know peak, you know, like the first half of the year

02:13:33   This is like the the peak and then you know, they'll they'll go silent for two months and then you know

02:13:38   Ramp back up in September again, but it's I'm going for the first time in my life. I'm going to WWDC

02:13:42   Wow, you've never been there before no, I've always gone to Mac world, but you know, like I'm a power user

02:13:47   I'm not a developer, but you know mac world's not around anymore. Now. My new employer has a very liberal policy

02:13:53   So well, you know jason snell

02:13:55   I'm sure you saw it a few weeks ago. He wrote

02:13:58   Was it for i'more? I forget because he now it's like it used to be you always knew where snell was writing

02:14:03   But now he's bouncing around but he you know that the wwc has taken over. It's the hub of the apple community world

02:14:09   Whether you're a developer or not

02:14:12   Which is weird because it you know years ago

02:14:14   You would have never thought you'd never recommend to someone who wasn't a developer that they go to wwc

02:14:19   I certainly still wouldn't recommend you try to get in the lottery and get a ticket if you're not going to actually take

02:14:23   No, I didn't even try. Yeah, i'm not even gonna try but the uh,

02:14:26   But it's gonna be fun being up there. I have so many friends that are gonna be there i'm talking it

02:14:31   I'm, not sure if i'm supposed to say it or not. I think i'm gonna be talking to alt comp about stuff. So

02:14:35   Yeah, well there's alt conf and then there's a new conference, uh layers

02:14:39   Um, what is the url for the layers conference? I'm actually

02:14:43   talking at that one. It is bringyourlayers.com. But if you just type layers conference, I'm sure

02:14:53   it'll come up. But it's like the Tuesday and Wednesday of WWDC week. And it is literally

02:14:58   right around the corner. I mean, like whatever hotel anybody would pick for going to Moscone,

02:15:04   where the layers conferences is in the, it's, it sounds funny that it's in the mall, but it's like

02:15:10   that's a very strange mall up on Market Street. I went on the self-employed budget hotel. I'm at

02:15:16   the Mosser and I don't have my own bathroom. So I'm gonna be, I told my wife, I said, well,

02:15:24   all of my, you know, you know, sometimes I would prefer not to be around people, you know,

02:15:30   sometimes you're just not good at getting out. This'll solve that problem for me. Cause I'm not

02:15:34   going to want to be at my hotel at all. So there's, I'll be like in the lobby of your hotel.

02:15:38   But I think it's a great idea. And I do, you know, my Catholic upbringing is such that

02:15:43   there's like a guilt. Like, I feel like, you know, you've got to have some kind of work,

02:15:47   really. You can't just go on a boondoggle. You've got to have some kind of way to justify a trip

02:15:51   like this. But there's so many things. There's Alt-Conf, there's this new Layers conference,

02:15:55   which looks great, and it's—they call it a design conference for the Mac and iOS community.

02:16:00   You don't have to be a designer to go. But it's, you know, certainly if you are,

02:16:04   it is a fantastic thing. It's a great deal. A tremendous lineup of speakers. But then you

02:16:08   can be there for the week and it really is it there's no zero doubt in my mind the wwdc is now

02:16:14   what macworld used to be which is the hub where you know people like me and you can get together

02:16:18   and we don't see each other very often i haven't seen you since macworld some number of years ago i

02:16:21   believe yeah yeah it was a couple years ago yeah and uh the difference though macworld gave normal

02:16:28   users a chance to go and just kind of see what's new i mean there was a need that we've lost with

02:16:32   Macworld and I don't know what if somebody ever is gonna try and fix that but you know it's still

02:16:39   not a complete replacement for Macworld but it's the best we got at this point yeah oh I guess I

02:16:44   should say because I know people are asking I've the last couple of years I've done a live version

02:16:49   of the talk show during WWDC and that is on again as well that will be on Tuesday night as it has

02:16:57   been the last few years nothing to announce yet in terms of tickets or anything but I think what

02:17:01   I'm going to do, and this is why I'm bringing it up on the show, is so that listeners of

02:17:08   the show get the first crack at it, is next episode, whatever, next episode next week,

02:17:14   I'll talk about it on the show before I announce it on Daring Fireball. And so if you want

02:17:19   to get a ticket, and it has sold, I have to admit it has sold out every year. So if you

02:17:25   want to get in, the best way to get in would be to wait for me to announce, not this show,

02:17:30   week's show which would be episode 120 I believe and quick download the show and

02:17:36   start listening and then I'll give you the you know listen to the show and then

02:17:40   you'll know where to go to buy your tickets for that keep your Tuesday night

02:17:44   free though Tuesday I'm totally going to that I can't wait yeah you're in you

02:17:48   don't have to worry about it I'm I'm I'm just really looking forward to it just

02:17:51   in a couple weeks so I don't know what to expect but uh I'm gonna be I'm gonna

02:17:56   be on the road that week not gonna be hanging out in my hotel room with no

02:17:59   bathroom David sparks will need to borrow your bathroom exactly so I'll

02:18:06   just be like in the hotel lot those of you who are coming just be willing to

02:18:09   offer David your you need to bring like a you need to bring an external battery

02:18:16   pack for your iPhone and you need to bring a porta potty and a toothbrush and

02:18:21   the toothbrush somebody should make an external battery pack for that that has

02:18:26   little toothbrush that flips out of the side. I stayed at the Mosser once years ago for Macworld.

02:18:31   They had me giving one of the very first sessions and one of the very last. And it was back when

02:18:37   Macworld went a whole week. So I ended up having these in seven days there. And I wanted to save

02:18:42   money, so I got one in. It's great because the sink is right next to the bed. You can literally just

02:18:47   sit up in bed and brush your teeth. Where is the Mosser? I know. It's next door to Moscone. I mean,

02:18:53   it's the best in terms of location.

02:18:55   Oh, I know where it is. Yeah, I don't think I've never stayed there.

02:18:58   Yeah, I don't know. I just decided this year I was going to go on the cheap.

02:19:02   Oh, I have totally gone there on the cheap over the years. You know what? A lot of the cheaper

02:19:08   hotels in that area, it's easy to complain about, but it's not bad.

02:19:12   It's great. It's right there. You can just go back to your room and drop stuff off. It's nice.

02:19:17   When they told me, "Well, we don't even have any rooms left with bathrooms," I'm like,

02:19:22   Well, how exactly does that work?

02:19:24   They're like, well, there's a community like bathroom like for four rooms

02:19:28   You go out in the hallway and you you can lock yourself in there, right? I'm like, okay

02:19:33   Well, i'm definitely not going to be spending much time at the hotel

02:19:35   uh

02:19:37   Yeah, but that's like you said that that's good though, you know, you're not coming up there to uh to hang out in a hotel

02:19:41   um, I do think the only the downside wwc isn't that big compared to so many of the conferences there because it you know, the the

02:19:50   Moscone West has pretty significant limitations on attendance. Like they just can't make it bigger

02:19:55   but there's a lot of people who go now who aren't going they don't have WWDC passes

02:20:02   yeah but nowhere near as big as like Oracle World or uh GDC even the game developer conference some

02:20:12   of those ones that take up Moscone South and West have and and the the hotel prices skyrocket there

02:20:19   was one year where the new iPad event, and I think it was while the iPads were still coming out in the

02:20:26   spring, coincided with one of those conferences. And I got the invitation, the press pass,

02:20:36   typical Apple came out like a week before the event, and I went to book. And then like,

02:20:42   all of the hotels were like $800 a night. I was like, "What the hell?" And it was because of this

02:20:49   mega conference. So, WWC week isn't like that, but the overall boom in San Francisco and the

02:20:56   way the economy is just on fire there has really driven up hotel prices. That's like the biggest,

02:21:02   that's the biggest downside to having this thing in San Francisco is that it, you know,

02:21:07   for people who are on a tighter budget, it kind of stinks. It's going to be fun though.

02:21:12   a couple years ago, like around 2008-2009, because of the economic, you know, shit show of the world,

02:21:21   which kind of helped because it was like when Daring Fireball was still really flying low to

02:21:24   the ground economically, I used to be able to get like a four, four and a half star hotel for like

02:21:29   $175. Like there were a couple years for WWDC where there's a gang of us who were staying at

02:21:35   the Intercontinental, which is literally right next door. I mean, it's like physically connected

02:21:39   to Moscow, any West. It's great. And we got, we got deals on hot wire for like $175 and it's

02:21:45   serious. Not happening this year. No, it is nowhere near like that. But it was, it was

02:21:49   fantastic for someone, you know, who's really, really did not have the budget for six nights in

02:21:55   San Francisco. Yeah. Anyway, I will see you there. Thank you for being here. Let's get some plugs in.

02:21:59   Man, do you have stuff to plug? Yeah, I guess the big plug for me is just max barkey.com. That's

02:22:05   where all the stuff is max barkey.com your new photos for mac field guide is there you can just

02:22:11   go to max barkey.com and there's a big link to it in the sidebar but it's just max barkey.com

02:22:15   slash photos this is a two and a half hour screencast tutorial guide like mega guy like a

02:22:24   book in screencast form yeah i mean like i was gonna do a book but this one it since it's just

02:22:30   one app and make more sense just to look over my shoulder yeah and learn it as we're kind of weird

02:22:34   making it because there's some of my you know I use my family library because you need where

02:22:38   am I going to do it where I have 30,000 photos that I can use as an example so uh but it's great

02:22:44   and I thought I just went soup to nuts and at the end it ended up being two and a half hours which

02:22:48   was probably longer than I would have liked it to be but it cover everything so there you have it

02:22:53   it costs 10 bucks yeah now I on your show you tracked your hours that you put into this this

02:23:00   This is embarrassing.

02:23:01   - It's not embarrassing.

02:23:01   No, you're embarrassed by this.

02:23:04   You spent 81 hours in the production.

02:23:07   83 hours in the production of this screencast.

02:23:09   So in other words though,

02:23:10   I don't think that's embarrassing at all though.

02:23:12   I think that's the way film and video production is.

02:23:15   I mean, that's why it takes a three month shoot

02:23:19   and two years of pre-production

02:23:22   for a Star Wars movie to come out, right?

02:23:24   Like you, you know,

02:23:25   and the Star Wars movie's gonna be two hours.

02:23:27   You know, it takes a long time.

02:23:30   But that, 10 bucks, it's a crazy good deal.

02:23:33   But in other words, this is not,

02:23:34   David did not just turn on the screencast thing

02:23:36   and start talking for two hours,

02:23:38   which is exactly what I do with this podcast.

02:23:41   It's not like that at all.

02:23:42   Imagine if this show had gone on for 80 hours,

02:23:45   and then painstakingly we picked out the two hours of it

02:23:48   that were solid gold.

02:23:49   That's what this is like.

02:23:51   So for 10 bucks, it is an absolute steal.

02:23:53   And if you have any kind of interest in the new photos,

02:23:58   pretty much make up both the app and the syncing,

02:24:02   the iCloud, the iCloud software.

02:24:04   - Yeah, covers everything.

02:24:04   - Covers everything.

02:24:06   So there you go, you go to Mac Sparky to get that.

02:24:08   And you got your show over at the Mac Power User Show

02:24:13   at relay.fm/mpu, MPU is Mac Power Users.

02:24:18   Yep, and what about the Markdown book?

02:24:22   - Yeah, why not?

02:24:25   I need to update that book.

02:24:26   - If there's ever a time to plug the Markdown book,

02:24:28   would be your first appearance on the talk show.

02:24:30   Yeah, I wrote that book with Eddie Smith.

02:24:33   And I talked about Markdown a lot on the Mac power users,

02:24:37   because I just think it's so awesome.

02:24:39   I mean, on the lawyer side of my life,

02:24:42   my industry runs on Microsoft Word,

02:24:45   but I like to have text in a very mobile, agile format.

02:24:48   And I want to be able to open it on my iPad or my Mac

02:24:51   or whatever.

02:24:52   So I was a big proponent of using text until the very end

02:24:56   and then letting someone format it.

02:24:57   And then I found Markdown and it like made it possible for me to do a lot of the formatting myself.

02:25:02   So I'm not the person you were thinking of when you gave birth to this, but I still use it all the time.

02:25:09   And people were writing the show and say, you keep talking about Markdown.

02:25:12   I don't understand it.

02:25:13   And it's not that hard.

02:25:14   I mean, you could figure it out, but sometimes people want kind of a more, you know, a walkthrough.

02:25:18   So Eddie and I did this book and we did, we screencast it the whole thing, you know, how do you make emphasis that are in, how do you, and we picked some of our favorite apps that use Markdown and showed how you would.

02:25:27   write Markdown and export it and the various things you could do with it.

02:25:31   And, um, I really need to update that, but frankly, I'm going to try and talk

02:25:35   you into doing an interview with me on the next update, because we put some

02:25:37   audio interviews in there with people that use Markdown in their daily lives.

02:25:40   And, um, it's, it's a lot of fun.

02:25:43   And all those books I do and I books author, um, are really big.

02:25:48   I mean, they're like, you know, you know, they're like gigabyte sized books

02:25:52   because they all have like an hour and a half of video inside of them.

02:25:56   So if you get one of those books, just be ready to give it a few minutes to download,

02:26:00   because there's a lot of data in there. But it's—

02:26:02   I will tell you right now, yes, I will do an interview for the next version of the Markdown

02:26:06   book. Excellent.

02:26:07   It's criminal that I blew you off the last time. I didn't say no, but I never actually made myself

02:26:13   available. Well, I figured you were busy, so it's fine.

02:26:16   Well, yeah. Busy, lazy, you know. But anyway, it's criminal that I didn't, because it's really

02:26:21   an honor. It's the type of thing—it's just the type of little thing that you just—I never expected

02:26:25   I get like long story short I made markdown and I thought I should give this to the world

02:26:30   I shouldn't hold it

02:26:30   I just seemed so good that I you know

02:26:32   maybe everybody should use this and then I put it out there and and and it didn't really take off that quickly it was very

02:26:40   slow and

02:26:42   People were still using like my and again, I totally understand why but like it was like the little tiny bit of

02:26:47   Timing that was weird was I put markdown out there and like the next week was when base camp debuted

02:26:54   you know, now they're just Basecamp company, but you know, the former 37signals. And I know Jason

02:27:01   very well. I know David, you know, everybody. I don't know anybody there. I used to know

02:27:07   everybody at 37signals. And all the comments and messaging in Basecamp was done using Textile,

02:27:14   Dean Allen's thing, which is sort of a same type of thing as Markdown, but different syntax.

02:27:22   And it's, you know, just, it was just like, ah, that sucks.

02:27:25   And I totally know, like within one week, it's not like they were going to use markdown instead

02:27:29   of textile. I mean, obviously Basecamp was in development for, you know, I mean, you can,

02:27:33   you can make apps with rails pretty quickly, but not in a week. But I just thought, damn,

02:27:37   I wish I'd come out with this sooner because I'll bet they would have used markdown instead of

02:27:40   textile. And then it just didn't go anywhere. I don't know. And people, some people would,

02:27:43   you know, use it. But then like, it was like the slowest, surest, like uptake, like this slow,

02:27:49   steady thing and then all of a sudden it's this thing and everything has markdown built into it

02:27:54   and people are writing books about it and that to me is just crazy in my um in my experience the

02:28:01   reason markdown became so relevant to me i was using it to write blog posts from x sparky which

02:28:06   was great but what really made it a big deal to me was the fact that ios has never really supported

02:28:11   rich text very well and and even if it did i you know i don't want to use rich text on ios i just

02:28:18   want things to be fast and to sync quickly, you know, this is before photos and Apple proving its

02:28:23   bones. And so, you know, having plain text that you can format and then open on iOS devices,

02:28:30   I mean, markdown was so it was like a solution made for a problem that didn't exist yet.

02:28:35   I would disagree that the Mac OS doesn't have good support for rich text. I think it had great

02:28:40   support for rich text. The problem is there's never been a rich text format that has been

02:28:46   long-term stability in a long term not stability but uh

02:28:50   they always get old and then you can't you lose it yeah right that there's no

02:28:58   compatibility so even rtf which rtf is still supported great

02:29:02   on mac but they never ported the rtf stuff to ios so anything you have

02:29:06   in rtf doesn't go to ios yeah i guess did i say i meant ios is

02:29:12   that's the problem is iOS, you're stuck. And if you want to write on your iPad and on your Mac,

02:29:18   you need a solution. And Markdown really just does that nicely. And every it seems like every

02:29:24   writing app. I remember when that was like a feature selling point of a new app that it

02:29:29   supports Markdown. And now it's like, everybody just supports Markdown. It's just in it.

02:29:34   Trenton Larkin I've talked to my friend Brent Simmons about it, because I know Brent was on

02:29:38   my side, but it's a little bit unrelated to Markdown. But around that time, the late 90s

02:29:44   and the 2000s, there still was a living war over styled text versus plain text for email.

02:29:53   Like, should you be sending styled text email where you can hit command I and the word is

02:29:57   actually italicized, or should you be sending plain text email? And I was staunchly on the

02:30:02   side of the plain text that this was a protocol that was designed in the terminal era, and

02:30:07   everything should be plain text, and that way everybody will be able to read, you know,

02:30:12   it'll look right anywhere. And clearly the plain text side lost the war for email, and nobody even,

02:30:19   really, it's not even something people argue about anymore. But it was really more of a case where

02:30:23   we lost the battle, email was just a battle, but long-term plain text has won overall. I mean,

02:30:31   all sorts of new things are all just plain text. Facebook is sort of a plain text platform,

02:30:35   Twitter is definitely a plain text platform. Nobody even thinks about it anymore.

02:30:39   Pete: Well, and when I look at the stuff I wrote in MacWrite in 1992, I don't know,

02:30:46   I'm sure there's a way I could get it, but I don't know how I'd get it at this point,

02:30:49   and that's just to me a reminder that, you know, the stuff I spend writing, I want to be able to

02:30:55   access forever. And I mean, that's another reason why Markdown is a good, and plain text.

02:31:00   I think people got thrown off because in the the whole early era of PCs we kept getting more powerful

02:31:07   CPUs bigger displays better rendering capabilities better

02:31:13   access to you know a collection of fonts

02:31:16   Cross-platform and cetera etcetera and so we could keep making things fancier and fancier in terms of wizzy wig text styling

02:31:22   And I love to design stuff but in terms of what the canonical storage format for this stuff should be

02:31:28   I always thought it should always be plain text because that way anything and everything that you do in the future will be able to read it and I feel like the way people have caught on to that now where things like Twitter which was originally designed as like an SMS platform and then turned into a web thing and now turned into a mobile thing and now people are getting them on our watches and stuff if everything is just plain text every time there's one of these new things that comes up it's all it has to do is render text.

02:31:52   I'm just, in some ways I'm glad I can't access those old things because I remember I had a fascination with the original San Francisco font.

02:32:00   And I'm sure I used it inappropriately a lot.

02:32:04   Well, there was no appropriate way to use it.

02:32:06   Yeah, well there you go. I used it inappropriately, period.

02:32:10   God, I think that would be such a great Easter egg if like the Apple Watch on, I mean, not great, Apple would never do this, but

02:32:16   but if like April 1st if your Apple watch displayed everything in the old San Francisco

02:32:23   font about it would be so awesome all right anything else you want to plug David I'm great

02:32:29   all right thank you so much for your time you have to be on again sometime say hello to Katie

02:32:36   and I will see you next month at WWDC.

02:32:39   - All right.

02:32:40   - All right, thank you.

02:32:41   All right, I'm gonna stop.