The Talk Show

107: ‘Now It’s All Floppy’ With Guest Marco Arment


00:00:00   What kind of microphone do you have?

00:00:01   I know you were gonna give me like a

00:00:03   how to improve my audio, some help a while ago

00:00:06   and then we never followed through.

00:00:07   What kind of mic do you have?

00:00:09   - So I have both of the ones that everyone says

00:00:12   are the best mics for this purpose.

00:00:14   I have the Heil PR40 that Dan Benjamin

00:00:16   and all those people use, and I have the Shure SM7B.

00:00:20   And I prefer the Shure, I prefer the way my voice

00:00:22   sounds with the Shure.

00:00:23   The Heil PR40 makes people sound a little bit more nasal

00:00:26   and has like weird, it's like,

00:00:28   It's missing like the mid bass, but it has a lot of the lower bass.

00:00:32   So you sound like really bassy but not that present and not that warm with the PR-40.

00:00:38   So the SM7B is a really, really nice sounding mic, probably the best sounding mic for this purpose,

00:00:44   but has the giant asterisk that it needs a really nice and generally very expensive preamp to power it properly.

00:00:51   Yeah, screw that.

00:00:52   [laughs]

00:00:54   So that's what I use, of course.

00:00:56   I've got the old road podcaster, which is probably I don't I could I guess I could do better

00:01:01   You could I mean there's a question on how much it matters because your show has guests

00:01:07   It entered that rotate out every week

00:01:09   Like you don't want to sound that different from the guests now

00:01:11   There have been a lot of episodes your show where I think you sound worse than the guests

00:01:15   But that might be because of like weird EQ or going on or something else going on

00:01:19   You know, that might be something else in the process being not that great. I don't know

00:01:25   And the other thing is how do you talk into your mic I keep the mic

00:01:29   Underneath my face like I'm not it's sticking straight up and I'm you know, it's close to my mouth

00:01:36   But I have it where it's underneath my face. It's more or less like at my chin and going down. Yeah, you're doing it wrong

00:01:42   Yeah, you're supposed to I'm supposed to be like staring right into it, right?

00:01:46   Yeah, pretty much like my and and like yeah like so for mine like because I have the the crazy low output sm7b

00:01:52   I am like my lips are almost touching the pop filter. Sometimes they do touch the pop filter

00:01:57   I'm like right on top of it talking directly straight on into it

00:02:00   Yeah, see what happened. I'm asking all these questions because I came in

00:02:04   I spent a big chunk of the holidays not working in my home office was downstairs, you know, Nick dining room

00:02:11   you know being more of a

00:02:13   You know part of the family

00:02:15   And I came up to record the

00:02:22   Star Wars episode of the show with Sir Q'son Guy.

00:02:27   - That was good, by the way.

00:02:29   I thought I would hate that, 'cause it was so long.

00:02:31   I don't care that much about Star Wars,

00:02:33   but that was actually really good.

00:02:34   I really enjoyed it.

00:02:35   I listen to those people. - Those are the compliments

00:02:36   from people who said, "I don't even like Star Wars,

00:02:38   but I like that show."

00:02:38   That, to me, was, that's all that matters.

00:02:40   That meant that it came out the way I wanted it to.

00:02:43   I came up to my office, and my mic arm was on the ground

00:02:47   in front of my desk, and I thought,

00:02:50   I knew I didn't put it there,

00:02:51   And Amy records her show up here.

00:02:54   And I didn't think she'd recorded her episode recently.

00:02:57   But I thought it must have been her.

00:02:58   And I was like, why in the world would she disconnect it from the desk

00:03:01   and put it on the floor?

00:03:02   And I was a little annoyed.

00:03:04   And then I looked, and it was the fact that the arm mount had broken.

00:03:07   It just like-- just right where you would think,

00:03:09   right where the clamp goes on the desk, just like a stress fracture.

00:03:15   Which kind of makes sense, because it supports a fair amount of weight.

00:03:18   And it's the same arm that I had had ever since I started doing the first run of the show

00:03:22   Which I think was like 2007. I don't even know when the when that was so

00:03:26   But anyway, I had to get a new podcast arm and

00:03:30   Of course, I didn't set it up until right when we were supposed to record tonight

00:03:35   Naturally, and I'm looking at the instructions and it's like wow

00:03:38   They're showing me to set this mic up in a very different way than I have ever

00:03:42   Ever used the microphone

00:03:45   Yeah, no, you're definitely doing it wrong. I mean certain mics are made to be addressed like on the side

00:03:50   But that's not one of them. Yeah, but I'm not talking into the side. I am talking into the top of it

00:03:55   Well, you're kind of talking like over the top of it like you play. Yeah. Yeah, exactly exactly. Yeah, that's not good. I

00:04:01   Don't know. Maybe I could try to fix it right now

00:04:04   It seems to me though that if I do it their way

00:04:06   I'm gonna it's what I'm gonna be seeing I won't be able to see like my computer or anything

00:04:10   Yeah, you kind of got to like look through them like through the arm and kind of look, you know

00:04:14   I mean yeah I don't know maybe I'll put it at an angle or something does this

00:04:21   sound any better um yeah you sound a little bit louder a little bit clearer I

00:04:25   mean it's not a huge difference but it's a little different all right if this if

00:04:30   you see here a terrible noise it means that I've unscrewed this thing I mean

00:04:35   the road podcaster is not an amazing mic like you're not gonna see you're never

00:04:38   gonna sound amazing from it but you can sound good enough from it I can't get

00:04:43   the thing screws on to it. Alright. Oh shit. This will make for excellent audio. What a

00:04:50   broadcast. Alright. Now it's all floppy. These things are ridiculous.

00:04:57   Also the Rode Boom Arm that I assume you're using, I'm also using one. It's not the best

00:05:05   arm. It's pretty shitty. It works, but like mine, any slight vibration anywhere like this

00:05:12   Anywhere like in the desk or anything a spring inside the arm rattles

00:05:16   Which is completely opposite of the kind of thing. It's supposed to do

00:05:19   And it's just like I just I haven't ever

00:05:23   Replaced it because like, you know, it's not broken yet

00:05:26   It still works, but I even had the thought when I had the real when I had to order one

00:05:30   I just went to Amazon and I saw that it said road and I thought well, I've got a road Mike might as well get it

00:05:35   Yeah

00:05:36   You know and the old one was a heil. Is that you pronounce it? Yeah

00:05:39   That's how other people pronounce it. I don't know. All right

00:05:42   And even though I like I said it was seven years old and I sort of don't I'm not really angry that it broke

00:05:48   I still feel like well it broke. I'm not gonna buy another Heil, right?

00:05:51   So I just bought the road but then I had this and it was one of those things where I you know

00:05:56   Amazon makes it so easy. So it's like that's my thought process. My thought process was not a Heil

00:06:02   I already have a road mic and

00:06:05   It looked highly rated on Amazon and so like two clicks later

00:06:09   It was on its way. And so then with a little bit of thought I thought hmm, maybe I should have

00:06:14   Taken the usual advice and ask Marco

00:06:16   No, I mean that's what I'm I'm using the exact same arm like the road, you know, PS whatever arm. It's their only arm

00:06:22   I think I'm using the same one just because I had the podcaster

00:06:26   I like I bought the kit for five by five and then I upgraded my mic but never upgraded the boom arm because it still

00:06:32   Works the desk lamp does look sturdier than the aisle like the heil

00:06:35   After having looked at it. It's like I'm kind of surprised it didn't snap off right away

00:06:39   Yeah, I'm like, I don't really know where the road one would break

00:06:43   Like looking at the construction like, you know what? I don't know what part of this would be the weak point

00:06:47   But I don't think I mean

00:06:49   I think it's more likely that like one of the springs in the arm would snap and it would lose tension and just drop to

00:06:55   The desk. Yeah, I think that we're likely to fail

00:06:57   Yeah

00:06:58   And that actually was starting to happen with my house that it was starting starting to lose some tension and I could not there's no way

00:07:03   to like adjust that

00:07:05   Yeah, the road has these weird screws on the arm, but I don't know if those do anything.

00:07:11   Yeah. What are these Velcro straps for?

00:07:13   Those are for attaching the cable. Like, you basically attach the cable to the arm on its

00:07:19   way down using those. So that way you can have, like, a nice tidy cable going down to the base

00:07:24   of the arm. Oh, that would be nice. Yeah, that's what they're for.

00:07:28   All right, anyway. Yeah, I'll take a picture of my setup.

00:07:31   Quiet week for you. Yeah.

00:07:34   Yeah.

00:07:34   Yeah, nothing's ever going on.

00:07:37   For the record, we're recording on Thursday the 8th,

00:07:43   which is a night after you recorded ATP,

00:07:47   where I presume you talked about probably

00:07:48   all the same things we're gonna talk about tonight,

00:07:50   but I couldn't have listened to it yet

00:07:52   because I didn't catch the live broadcast.

00:07:55   But people like you, they won't mind hearing you

00:07:57   talk about it twice.

00:07:59   Yeah, they should be all right.

00:08:01   When did you publish your piece, Sunday?

00:08:04   - Yeah, it was Sunday night.

00:08:05   Part of the problem, I think, was that I published it

00:08:08   on a Sunday night, right before a,

00:08:13   right as a holiday vacation for a lot of people was ending,

00:08:16   and there's nothing going on in the news.

00:08:18   - Right.

00:08:19   - And so, a lot of the places that picked it up,

00:08:22   a lot of people were telling me,

00:08:23   yeah, never publish things at that time,

00:08:25   because people are so desperate for news

00:08:29   at some of these bigger sites,

00:08:30   that like, you know, there's nothing going on in tech,

00:08:33   you know, on a random Monday.

00:08:35   I mean, CES was starting,

00:08:36   but nothing had really been announced of any meaning yet.

00:08:40   And so everyone was saying like,

00:08:43   I couldn't have possibly had worse timing

00:08:45   if I didn't want it to be that noticed.

00:08:47   - Like if you had published the exact same piece,

00:08:49   word for word, not changed one bit, but maybe on Wednesday,

00:08:54   it might've, you know,

00:08:56   I think it would have gotten the attention it deserved,

00:09:00   but it wouldn't have gotten the attention it didn't deserve?

00:09:03   I don't know how even to put it.

00:09:05   - Yeah, that's basically it.

00:09:06   I mean, honestly, it didn't deserve the attention it got,

00:09:10   that's for sure.

00:09:11   It wasn't good.

00:09:14   The regret I have about it is that it just wasn't very good.

00:09:17   It was nowhere near my best work.

00:09:19   I didn't put enough effort into it.

00:09:23   I made a bunch of little mistakes in it,

00:09:25   and it just wasn't very good.

00:09:26   And then for that to become extremely widespread

00:09:30   and to have it be under quite a bit of scrutiny,

00:09:34   that is just frustrating.

00:09:36   - Yeah, so for the record--

00:09:37   - And it's my fault.

00:09:39   - People listening extemporaneously,

00:09:41   people who are listening when this episode first comes out

00:09:43   will know exactly what we're talking about,

00:09:44   but for the record, we should say what it was,

00:09:47   which is that on Sunday,

00:09:48   you published an article titled,

00:09:50   headlined, "Apple Has Lost the Functional High Ground."

00:09:54   I think if if I may a nutshell summary is I you've detected that over the last few years the quality of Apple's

00:10:02   Software has gotten worse

00:10:04   Correct. Not any one particular thing

00:10:07   just in general and that it concerns you about the future of the company and

00:10:13   It's the reason you've switched to the Mac in the first place a decade ago is that you were sick of having little stupid things

00:10:19   Like little annoying bugs here there everywhere all day long

00:10:24   that it just works factor is sort of fading from Apple's software platforms.

00:10:29   Right, and like a lot of the a lot of the pushback I mean the reason it spread so

00:10:35   quickly so incredibly quickly I mean it had hundreds of retweets within a few

00:10:40   hours of publishing it and then it spread from there. The reason it spread

00:10:45   I think is because a lot of people agree and and a lot of people still argued

00:10:50   with it, of course. But I think if I was totally wrong, it

00:10:54   wouldn't have spread. You know, it's not like I'm publishing

00:10:55   this on some major news site where people like you would make

00:10:58   fun of me if I got it wrong. Like, I'm publishing this on my

00:11:01   personal site. Like, it's not widely read most of the time.

00:11:04   And so, you know, I don't think it would have spread if there

00:11:08   wasn't some truth there.

00:11:10   Yeah, I think the word I used and I saw a couple of other

00:11:13   people use it. I know Hockenberry did too. And I think

00:11:15   it's because it's the perfect word that it resonated.

00:11:17   Right. Or it hit a nerve one of those.

00:11:20   I think Resonate is better.

00:11:22   - Yeah, probably.

00:11:23   That's why you're the pro writer.

00:11:26   - I don't know, to me Resonate is exactly what happened.

00:11:29   It's like it felt true more so than thought true.

00:11:34   It just felt right.

00:11:35   - Right, and very few people have said

00:11:38   you are completely wrong.

00:11:39   Most people have just said,

00:11:41   well, I would have said it differently,

00:11:43   or it isn't as severe as you say.

00:11:45   And that's like, what I regret,

00:11:47   and where I felt my failing was that

00:11:50   I worded some things too severely,

00:11:52   and which of course is a frequent problem I have.

00:11:56   But so I worded some things too severely

00:11:58   and that detracted from the validity of what I wrote.

00:12:02   But the fact is, I think the overall sentiment

00:12:06   of Apple's software has some quality problems

00:12:09   in recent years and it doesn't seem to be getting better,

00:12:13   that I think is what resonated with people

00:12:15   pretty unambiguously.

00:12:16   - Yeah, you do, you have a sort of,

00:12:20   it's almost like a no-nonsense style.

00:12:21   Like, and I'll vouch for it.

00:12:24   You certainly aren't doing it.

00:12:25   You're not sensational.

00:12:26   You don't overstate things for sensational purposes

00:12:30   because you're not looking for hits or page views

00:12:33   'cause you don't even have, you know, you use the deck.

00:12:35   You don't even get paid by page views.

00:12:37   You know, like, you're not gonna get extra this month

00:12:39   because you had an explosive story this week

00:12:41   that got, you know, a couple hundred thousand

00:12:43   extra page views.

00:12:44   It doesn't give you a nickel.

00:12:44   In fact, it could actually cost me money if I end up going over some bandwidth allocations at my host

00:12:49   So right more popular an article is it actually might cost me more money. That's funny. It's actually true, right?

00:12:54   Which is the opposite of when you know?

00:12:56   You know when Dan Lyons trumps up something at Valley wag

00:13:02   It's because you know, they measure their success month to month by page views. You're not in that game

00:13:07   You know, that's not why that's not the way that you overstated it. It's just sort of a no-nonsense style

00:13:13   Well, but you know and and you're right that that's what I intended

00:13:17   But because I did I did use like so what like one of these samples like I originally said quality has taken a nosedive

00:13:24   And that was the wrong word really it hasn't taken a nosedive

00:13:28   It's been a gradual decline and what I meant really was a decline

00:13:31   That's just now in really bad shape

00:13:33   But a nosedive suggests like an acceleration of like all of a sudden. It's now dropping quickly, and that's not really the case

00:13:40   case. It's more of a gradual progression. But anyway, so like, you know, there are things

00:13:43   like that. And yeah, overall, like, I regret having written it simply because it put some

00:13:51   of my most mediocre to worst work in front of so many people and put my name on it forever.

00:13:58   Whereas like, I don't regret having said that Apple has problems. I just regret that I didn't

00:14:04   say it better.

00:14:05   >> Right. And what happened then is that it really went explosive.

00:14:08   I mean, like you --

00:14:09   >> Oh, my God.

00:14:09   >> You even said -- I guess it was your Google Analytics, but whatever.

00:14:12   You -- you know, you had -- your analytics showed that it was more popular

00:14:16   than anything you had written in all of 2014.

00:14:18   >> Correct.

00:14:19   >> Which is amazing, really, that, you know,

00:14:21   five days into the year you've already topped last year.

00:14:24   It just got picked up.

00:14:25   It got picked up and relinked and relinked and relinked.

00:14:28   And I guess Business Insider got it started.

00:14:31   Here's their headline.

00:14:33   Apple's software is in a quote, nose dive, end quote,

00:14:37   that is deeply concerning longtime Apple supporters,

00:14:40   as Jairo writing a perfect Business Insider headline.

00:14:45   - Right, and the thing is, like, usually,

00:14:47   I could pick on Business Insider and say,

00:14:49   "You guys are such pieces of shit for this,"

00:14:51   'cause usually they are.

00:14:52   In this case, they really, the original version

00:14:55   had a couple of, like, paraphrases in it

00:14:58   that were not what I said, that were more inflammatory,

00:15:01   but I since complained about them

00:15:03   and he updated them to be more accurate.

00:15:05   So over, and the headline, like, I did say that.

00:15:09   I didn't really mean to say it that severely,

00:15:12   but I did say that.

00:15:13   So overall, of all the hat jobs they've done to me

00:15:16   over the years, this is one of the better ones.

00:15:19   - Yeah, but it's, I guess it's not, yeah,

00:15:22   it's not necessarily that as it stands right now

00:15:24   that it's unfair, but it's fuel to the fire.

00:15:28   - Right, and actually,

00:15:30   A lot of people don't realize this.

00:15:32   A lot of people have no clue how insanely popular

00:15:38   and pervasive Business Insider is.

00:15:40   Like, whenever I mention on Business Insider any context,

00:15:45   I will have everybody who has ever met me,

00:15:49   my mom's friends, my friends' parents,

00:15:52   like people who are outside of the tech news sphere,

00:15:57   they will all contact me and be like,

00:16:00   "Oh my God, I read this article about you

00:16:01   on Business Insider, congratulations."

00:16:04   They consider it a good thing whenever I mention there,

00:16:05   even though it's always so trashy.

00:16:07   Sometimes one of my products will occasionally get mentioned

00:16:12   in some major tech publication like Mac World,

00:16:15   or occasionally I've even been in New York Times

00:16:17   or Wall Street Journal or something like that.

00:16:19   Never a peep from anybody.

00:16:21   When I'm in Business Insider

00:16:23   for the stupidest smallest thing,

00:16:25   everyone in my life comes forward,

00:16:26   "Oh my God, I haven't seen you in 15 years,

00:16:29   but I read this article about you in Business Insider.

00:16:31   That site, I don't know why it's so popular,

00:16:34   but it is really popular.

00:16:36   And so whenever they write anything about me

00:16:39   or one of my products, it gets picked up everywhere.

00:16:43   It gets carried everywhere,

00:16:45   and they ultimately dictate the narrative.

00:16:47   If you look, almost every other site

00:16:50   that republished this article

00:16:52   was republishing from Business Insider.

00:16:54   A lot of them were linking back to Business Insider

00:16:55   instead of my site.

00:16:56   A lot of them were taking the Business Insider headlines

00:16:59   in quotes word for word.

00:17:00   It really was Business Insider that led the promotion

00:17:05   on this, whether willingly or not, I don't know,

00:17:08   it doesn't really matter, but people do not realize,

00:17:11   your site seeds all the tech sites.

00:17:14   Whenever you write about something,

00:17:16   all the tech sites write about it a day later.

00:17:17   Business Insider seeds everything else.

00:17:20   It's really weird, and I wish it wasn't that way,

00:17:23   but it really is.

00:17:24   - It's sort of the opposite of my sort of popularity.

00:17:28   My popularity is super niche.

00:17:30   And so it is a big deal for some people.

00:17:32   Like if I link to somebody,

00:17:34   first time I ever linked to their blog,

00:17:36   a lot of people will tweet to me like,

00:17:38   "Oh my God, you just made my day."

00:17:39   And that's hard for me.

00:17:42   I don't, I'm still not yet.

00:17:44   I can't say I'll ever get used to that,

00:17:45   but I understand it.

00:17:47   I know.

00:17:48   I know what it was like.

00:17:49   I know what it was like the first time

00:17:51   that Slashdot linked to Daring Fireball way back in 2002.

00:17:54   And it was just crazy.

00:17:55   And it's not even that I loved Slashdot,

00:17:57   but it's like I knew that holy shit, that's a big deal.

00:18:00   - Right, it was like getting on the dig front page

00:18:01   back in 2006.

00:18:03   - Right, I also remember that my site didn't go down

00:18:05   and it was, I thought, up until that point,

00:18:09   I had no idea whether, there was no way for me to fake it.

00:18:12   I couldn't know if I would survive a slash starting.

00:18:15   But I don't think it, like some guy,

00:18:21   somebody writes a blog post,

00:18:22   I've never linked to them before, I link to them.

00:18:24   They're not gonna get their mom calling them and say,

00:18:26   "Hey, I saw a Daring Fireball link to you."

00:18:28   'Cause her mom doesn't know who I am either.

00:18:31   - Unless the mom is really cool.

00:18:32   - Yeah, I mean, it would be an exception.

00:18:34   It would have to be like Brent Simmons,

00:18:36   where his mom's like a programmer and stuff.

00:18:38   - Right, right.

00:18:39   - And I shouldn't even say mom, dad, anybody,

00:18:41   who's not in the thing

00:18:43   and is already one of my regular readers.

00:18:44   Whereas Business Insider has a very, for whatever reason,

00:18:47   has a very broad readership of typical people.

00:18:51   - Yeah, what they write goes very far.

00:18:53   Which is really unfortunate, 'cause it's so bad usually.

00:18:56   Yeah, it's something to do with, you know, that they're a certain brand of, I don't know, sensationalizing stuff.

00:19:03   Well, look, I mean, you know, there are things in the world that, like, there are choices people can make

00:19:09   where you can do things like the good, high-quality, morally sound way,

00:19:15   or you take this one little shortcut here, if you're willing to give up a little bit of integrity here,

00:19:20   or a little bit of sensationalism here, you can boost your numbers by 15, 20, 30%.

00:19:25   and they choose the latter all the time.

00:19:29   Like, so, like, whereas you choose the former,

00:19:31   and that's what we consider in our community to be, like,

00:19:34   the right way to do it, if you're shameless enough,

00:19:39   and if you prioritize numbers and success in that kind

00:19:43   over integrity and quality,

00:19:46   then you can get insane numbers and insane popularity,

00:19:49   and they have chosen that.

00:19:51   Yeah, and let's not overstate things here either.

00:19:53   They're certainly not the worst.

00:19:55   They're there, you know and the other thing too they have talented people and they have had talented people Dan Fromer used to write there

00:20:01   Yeah, that's where I met him. I used to hate him and then like he came to the tumblr offices

00:20:04   I met him there first and then like he left and became a normal good person

00:20:08   It was amazing and I know Jay Jay arrow who wrote this piece on you. I uh, you know, he's good. He's smart

00:20:14   You know, I you could just tell from like reading some Twitter

00:20:17   Nick Carlson who I think is his name the guy who just wrote the published the book on Yahoo and Marissa Meyer

00:20:24   You know, he's a good reporter and yes, I'll give him that. Yeah, you know, and I think it's interesting too

00:20:30   I think I think the success he's having promoting his book because it seems I'm reading a lot of stuff about his book

00:20:35   It's just popping up a lot of places

00:20:37   I think it just goes to show that at Business Insider, they're good at promoting stuff including themselves

00:20:42   You know like that's part. It's not just that they're whether you're good bad or whatever as a writer a reporter

00:20:49   Being able to self promote is a skill and that it's to me is part of there a big part of their success

00:20:54   Yeah, yeah, absolutely, you know and Henry Blodgett's always had that to founder of the site

00:21:00   Among some other issues, but that's fine

00:21:02   But that's a definite thing though, you know, it's like there's there's certain people, you know, like he's good at getting on TV

00:21:11   You know and there's that certain type of Wall Street person who?

00:21:15   Is like just goes on CNBC all the time and I would drive me nuts. I I would hate going on TV

00:21:21   I would I wouldn't think I'd want to go on once I

00:21:23   Can't imagine like the the amount of stress that would bring

00:21:27   Hey, I would I would definitely if I was ever invited I would definitely decline

00:21:32   I've had invitations many times and I almost oh

00:21:34   I mean I went on Charlie Rose that one time and that was cool and it was also pretty easy because it was like five

00:21:39   in the afternoon

00:21:40   Getting to New York at five in the afternoon is super easy

00:21:43   I just take like a one o'clock train from Philly and I like going to Manhattan anyway

00:21:48   So that was cool. And that was I had a blast and it was well worth, you know

00:21:51   It wasn't that much of a time commitment

00:21:54   But like I've had offers to go on like Bloomberg TV and it's like, you know, they want me in New York by like 5 a.m

00:22:01   Eastern yeah, and it's like no it's not gonna work and but it really doesn't

00:22:06   Compute with them that somebody would not want to be on TV like people who are in TV

00:22:12   seem to be people who've

00:22:14   Whether they're on the air or not like that or whether they're just working as like a producer or whatever

00:22:19   It seems like the TV industry is only composed of people who've spent their whole lives wanting to be in the TV industry

00:22:24   And they can't it just doesn't compute it doesn't they can't grasp it and I say, you know

00:22:30   I I really don't think I ever want to be on your show. Thanks for asking. I'm flattered but

00:22:34   You know being in New York by 5 a.m

00:22:37   It's not gonna work.

00:22:39   - Well also, it's similar to the whole,

00:22:42   you should do this for exposure kind of arguments.

00:22:45   A lot of times they can't imagine why anybody would say no

00:22:49   to this great honor that they're bestowing upon you.

00:22:51   And the fact is, there's a cost to you being on TV,

00:22:54   and there's risks to you being on TV,

00:22:57   and it just might not be worth it.

00:22:59   That's how I'm realizing as I'm getting older

00:23:03   and hopefully wiser, but I keep making the same mistakes

00:23:05   over and over again, so probably not wiser,

00:23:07   but as I at least get older, I'm realizing that

00:23:10   talking to journalists for interviews,

00:23:12   for stories about anything,

00:23:14   when they call you for a quote or anything,

00:23:17   it is almost never worth agreeing to that

00:23:20   because the risk is so high that

00:23:22   they're going to distort your words to fit their narrative

00:23:25   in a way that you don't approve of,

00:23:27   that you can't, that's totally out of your control.

00:23:29   And it's like, in this day and age,

00:23:31   if I have something to say, I can say it on my blog.

00:23:34   Now granted, now that has the other problem,

00:23:36   just happen, which is like, I better be sure I say it well there, and everything I write

00:23:41   there can be taken and quoted elsewhere, but at least I wrote it my way. Like, it seems

00:23:46   like less of a risk to do it that way than, like, to just be quoted in some random news

00:23:50   story and, like, you have no control over that, you usually, unless you have a very

00:23:55   strong relationship with them, usually you can't get, like, review, like, quote review

00:23:58   or anything, and if somebody screws up and publishes something that you didn't quite

00:24:03   there's pretty much nothing you can do about it.

00:24:05   Even if they publish a correction, the damage is done.

00:24:08   - Yeah.

00:24:09   - So it's, and going on TV is probably even worse,

00:24:12   because you're live, you can't even carefully

00:24:15   think about your words for very long.

00:24:16   You're live, you need to get a comment right now

00:24:19   and try to sound smart, and it just,

00:24:22   and everyone's watching.

00:24:24   - Yeah, and it's also, it's not leisurely.

00:24:27   - Yeah, exactly.

00:24:27   - I think I, it's funny, I was gonna say,

00:24:31   think I did pretty well on Charlie Rose but they've never asked me back so maybe

00:24:34   not I remember I think I watched it I remember just like like you know I think

00:24:39   I immediately forgot about it so it couldn't have been good or bad really it

00:24:42   was me and David Pogue talking about the iPhone 5 I want to say like I'm gonna

00:24:48   place it two years ago pretty sure it was iPhone 5 well you probably did

00:24:53   exactly what you what is like the optimal scenario for a TV appearance

00:24:57   like that, which is be good but completely forgettable

00:25:01   because we all forgot it.

00:25:03   And that's good because it could go a lot worse.

00:25:06   It can't really go much better.

00:25:08   And so that's, and now you can say,

00:25:11   I've been on the Charlie Rose show.

00:25:13   You can tell your parents, they can see it.

00:25:15   Like, it's all good.

00:25:16   So you have all the benefits, but nothing went wrong.

00:25:20   - Sitting in a chair that was warmed by Matt Damon's ass.

00:25:24   - Is that an honor?

00:25:25   I'm not sure.

00:25:26   - I don't know.

00:25:26   they're walking into a room as he walks out.

00:25:30   Did you stop by and say, hey, I like your site, man.

00:25:33   Yeah, yeah, he wanted a t-shirt.

00:25:36   Sure he's a reader.

00:25:36   No, I learned what to do in that scenario from Merlin Mann.

00:25:41   It's such great advice that you just

00:25:43   have to know this before-- just think about it now,

00:25:46   before when there's no famous people around.

00:25:48   And if you ever meet somebody who's famous, truly famous,

00:25:51   and you're going to get a chance to say something,

00:25:53   all you say is, "Huge fan of your work."

00:25:57   - Oh, that's good.

00:25:58   Merlin's so good. - That's it.

00:25:59   You just say, "Huge fan of your work," and you mean it.

00:26:01   Don't say it if you don't mean it.

00:26:02   Just look at him and say,

00:26:03   "Hey, great to meet you.

00:26:04   "A huge, huge fan of your work."

00:26:06   And then that's it.

00:26:07   And then you let him go.

00:26:08   You just, maybe neither, I think with Damon,

00:26:10   we didn't even stop walking.

00:26:12   But it was, there was a moment, I could say something,

00:26:15   I just said, "Hey, huge fan of your work."

00:26:17   And he goes, "Thanks."

00:26:18   And then he left.

00:26:20   - See, and you have that story too.

00:26:22   So it worked out.

00:26:23   Right?

00:26:24   Yeah, and anyway, what you said is exactly right, though,

00:26:29   about talking to reporters, where,

00:26:31   and it's definitely my experience,

00:26:32   where almost all of them have the story written,

00:26:35   whether it's actually written, written,

00:26:37   or it's just like an outline in their head.

00:26:39   They've already got it written,

00:26:41   and they will take your quote and make it fit

00:26:43   what they've already written, nine times out of 10.

00:26:45   So I don't talk to reporters anymore, either,

00:26:47   unless I know them, unless I know,

00:26:49   either know them personally,

00:26:50   or if I'm familiar with their work and trust them.

00:26:54   - Yeah, and it's different when you know them personally.

00:26:57   And I'll talk to people I know,

00:26:58   but that's a pretty small list, really.

00:27:01   - Yeah, or just familiar with their work.

00:27:04   But yeah, again, but Joe Schmo from Bloomberg, no way.

00:27:08   - Not a, yeah, terrible idea.

00:27:10   It can only go badly, and it probably will.

00:27:12   - Right.

00:27:13   - I almost worked there.

00:27:16   - At Bloomberg?

00:27:17   - Yeah, when I was interviewing

00:27:18   for what became the Tumblr job,

00:27:21   I was weighing those two offers.

00:27:22   I had gotten an offer from both,

00:27:23   I interviewed at both places.

00:27:25   And I got to choose between Bloomberg

00:27:28   and this giant glass building

00:27:30   where all the walls inside were glass,

00:27:32   and this caused problems because you couldn't see

00:27:34   how to exit the conference room you were in.

00:27:36   There's like optical illusions everywhere.

00:27:38   And they told me they had to add this like row of stickers

00:27:43   that were just like the company logo.

00:27:45   This row of decals on every wall

00:27:47   that approximately eye level,

00:27:49   just so you wouldn't run into things,

00:27:50   like run into walls.

00:27:52   You know, a typical corporate design of like,

00:27:54   it looks really cool, it doesn't work at all.

00:27:57   And so I get to weigh that,

00:27:59   of crashing into glass walls

00:28:01   and sitting in a very long table

00:28:04   with about four feet of width of the table assigned to me.

00:28:08   Little six inch rim around the desk,

00:28:11   like not even cubicle wall,

00:28:12   it's like a six inch rim around my little four foot space,

00:28:15   typing on a PC working on Fortran code.

00:28:19   - No. - Or.

00:28:20   - Yeah, yeah, that was the job.

00:28:22   - Really?

00:28:23   - And everyone I interviewed with was not that nice,

00:28:27   and I thought I bombed the interview.

00:28:29   And so I got an offer for an interview

00:28:32   that I thought I bombed from people

00:28:34   I don't really wanna work with

00:28:35   in this terrible environment,

00:28:37   like this giant boiler room kind of environment,

00:28:39   just like this little strip of a desk

00:28:41   with a Fortran terminal.

00:28:42   Or I could go work for this guy who looks like he's 15, David Karp, and he's working

00:28:49   out of some office that I don't quite understand that a bunch of other people are in, but he

00:28:53   doesn't work for them.

00:28:54   There's some arrangement where they're sharing the office or something.

00:28:56   Everything is red and colorful, and the office is full of children's toys.

00:29:00   And he told me that he'd buy me a Mac and I could work on a Mac.

00:29:04   So I went with that.

00:29:06   That was literally why I went there.

00:29:08   I can't believe they've still got Fortran code in production.

00:29:11   I mean, that was literally a joke.

00:29:12   - Yeah.

00:29:12   - I think it was this week's Simpsons.

00:29:15   - No, I actually, I was recently,

00:29:17   I was on a flight recently sitting next to

00:29:19   a guy who works for IBM and he was a young guy.

00:29:22   He was in his probably mid-20s.

00:29:24   But he works in IBM's mainframe division,

00:29:28   which is still running and there's like, you know,

00:29:30   big banks and insurance companies and things like,

00:29:32   they still use IBM mainframes.

00:29:35   And he writes all in Fortran or, no, I think it was COBOL.

00:29:38   One of those two, like that's what he does all day,

00:29:41   is write low-level mainframe operating system code

00:29:45   in Cobalt or Fortran.

00:29:47   - Yeah, that's crazy.

00:29:48   - In this, and he's, I mean, he wasn't even born

00:29:50   when this thing was originally written.

00:29:53   - I feel bad 'cause there's probably people

00:29:54   who listen to the show who have a job like that.

00:29:56   - Oh, I'm sure.

00:29:57   It's more common than you think.

00:29:58   That's the crazy part.

00:30:00   - Yeah, I don't really wanna make fun,

00:30:01   I'm not trying to make fun.

00:30:02   I'm just sort of stunned that there's that much,

00:30:05   what would you call it, like inertia

00:30:10   with programming languages, that they just,

00:30:12   once they get any kind of mass success, they just never die.

00:30:15   - Well, in a system like that, I mean,

00:30:17   if you think about it like from like a programmer

00:30:20   out of college viewpoint, and you think,

00:30:22   why are you using Fortran for your bank's large systems?

00:30:26   You're stupid, that's dumb, I wanna rewrite this whole thing

00:30:28   in Node or whatever. (laughs)

00:30:31   And then, you know, but the reality is like,

00:30:33   the wise programmer would look at that and be like,

00:30:35   all right, this bank's massive financial backend

00:30:38   that has been running fine for the most part

00:30:40   for like 30 years is written in some crazy language,

00:30:44   do I want the job of rewriting it from scratch?

00:30:48   Hell no.

00:30:48   Like that's it, that has red flags all over it.

00:30:51   You do not want that kind of responsibility.

00:30:54   Get out of there.

00:30:55   I don't know any wise programmers who would take that job.

00:30:59   - It's sort of if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

00:31:02   If it ain't broke, don't rewrite it.

00:31:04   - And certainly don't touch it

00:31:05   when there's like massive amounts of money at stake.

00:31:07   Right.

00:31:09   Crazy.

00:31:10   Let's take a break, I'll do the first sponsor,

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00:31:32   I've never seen anything else like it.

00:31:34   You really do kinda have to see it to believe it.

00:31:37   It really makes it seem as though it's right there on the surface.

00:31:40   I always compare it to like when the iPhone switched to the laminated displays,

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00:31:47   It's exactly that sort of effect, but with an analog print of your photos.

00:31:53   They have all sorts of sizes to choose from.

00:31:56   The square ones that Marco has made famous for

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00:32:05   been in Marco's office they look great on the wall. Two really really big ones

00:32:09   you know big rectangular ones they ship in these amazing containers that double

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00:32:26   have to buy an extra frame to put the thing in you can mount them directly on

00:32:29   the wall just as the glass they look really cool so there's nothing else to

00:32:34   buy it's not like when you get printouts and then you have to go put them in a frame and

00:32:38   you have to take the frame apart and then it's easy so easy you just send them your

00:32:43   pictures they send you back printouts of them on glass where do you go to find out more

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00:33:22   Yeah, I'm looking right at five fracture prints in my office right now.

00:33:27   Oh my god, they're all we have them all over the place and they're great gift idea, too

00:33:31   So, I don't know the immediate backlash not backlash over over

00:33:38   Over

00:33:41   Representation of your thing is kind of interesting and it's sad and depressing but I feel like the better topic is to actually talk about

00:33:48   some of the problems apple software has

00:33:51   Yeah, because one of the things I got

00:33:53   Is it definitely because it hits such a mainstream media thing? I mean people within Apple definitely noticed and I

00:34:01   Heard from a couple friends at Apple not like PR not like Apple PR reach out and telling me, you know

00:34:08   Trying to spin it or anything just you know, like engineers and some of them

00:34:12   III it was really interesting what they said all of them said different things but like one of them was pretty surprised and

00:34:17   More or less of do you really think that because I you know, I you know

00:34:21   This is the friend at apples more or less paraphrase that you know, I think that we've been doing pretty good

00:34:29   It seems to me like, you know the bug, you know, the open bugs and radar are lower than they used to be years ago

00:34:35   Do you really think that I said I have to say there is something to it though

00:34:39   It seems to me like there's more annoyances than there used to be

00:34:43   But there were definitely some people with an apple who disagreed and then there were some who did agree

00:34:48   But I'm curious I'm curious specifically like because that's one thing your article didn't have it didn't really have like a list of here's some

00:34:56   of the bugs right and and that was

00:34:58   That was ultimately a failing. I wasn't really talking about like here's five things that are that are the problems today

00:35:06   I was really talking about the general trend and so it's hard to give a

00:35:10   comprehensive list of examples because many of these things are like little annoyances or little, you know, occasional failures or occasional bugs.

00:35:18   I

00:35:20   heard from from from a few different engineers and and and I read a couple of reddit comments

00:35:25   from people who are who are allegedly with an Apple and stuff and and it seems to be a

00:35:31   few people thought that everything's fine, but most of the people seem to think that that yeah, like finally

00:35:40   "Thank you for saying this," like that kind of attitude,

00:35:42   like, "Yes, this is a, like, no one listens,"

00:35:45   that kind of thing.

00:35:46   And it's hard to get a read on what the truth is,

00:35:48   or even with these people, or the real people, you know,

00:35:50   who actually work at Apple, who knows?

00:35:53   It could've just been some random person on the internet.

00:35:55   But I think there's, like, your comment about, like,

00:35:59   you know, the number of radars, like,

00:36:01   Apple could be measuring things that don't reflect

00:36:06   the overall usage of annoyances and bugs

00:36:10   that actually hit people in real life.

00:36:12   They could just be measuring the wrong things

00:36:14   or the things they're measuring aren't changing.

00:36:16   And so for instance, they have the built-in crash reporter

00:36:20   in every recent version of every OS

00:36:23   that you can say automatically send diagnostics to Apple

00:36:25   when stuff breaks.

00:36:27   But that only will send a report if a crash happened.

00:36:32   Like if you hit a bug that wasn't a crash,

00:36:36   That's not gonna include that.

00:36:38   And most of the bugs I see recently aren't crashes.

00:36:42   Like, I'm not getting kernel panics at my computers,

00:36:44   you know, or back when I was,

00:36:46   that was the fault of some IO driver, you know.

00:36:49   - Yeah, and that's one of the things I heard

00:36:51   from one of the people who was sort of

00:36:53   not really believing in that.

00:36:55   It was that, specifically, that crashes are down.

00:36:58   You know, and that's something that they can measure

00:37:00   because they have a crash reporter,

00:37:02   and that it just made him surprised

00:37:06   that this was a thing.

00:37:08   And it really was, it was not like a defensive take.

00:37:12   It's like typical Apple person, very thoughtful.

00:37:15   Really, really genuinely curious

00:37:17   because he found it surprising.

00:37:19   Really wanted to know.

00:37:20   And also absolutely believed in the sort of,

00:37:24   hey, when there's smoke, there's fire.

00:37:27   Clearly this, Marco's post resonated with a lot of people.

00:37:30   So I wanna get to the bottom of what this is.

00:37:34   But crashes definitely aren't it.

00:37:36   - Exactly, and like earlier tonight,

00:37:39   one of the many annoyances when using an Apple TV,

00:37:42   you know, I turn on the Apple TV

00:37:45   after it being asleep for most of the day,

00:37:48   and it shows three prompts in a row that say,

00:37:51   "Your Apple TV is not gonna connect to the internet."

00:37:53   Like you hit Menu and it just shows you another one.

00:37:55   And like, so there's three of those that were queued up.

00:37:57   So those aren't being coalesced.

00:37:59   And then I go back to the home screen,

00:38:02   It is connected the internet and we're showing new stuff

00:38:05   So they were pointy to weren't canceled right at which point those things should have been

00:38:09   Disregarded anyway never mind it right file under nevermind, right?

00:38:13   Why were they even showing when it was asleep and nobody was trying to do anything with it? Good question there, too

00:38:17   So those are all quality issues right not crashes

00:38:21   They're not gonna show up any bug reports because I'm not gonna report it. Look I'm talking with you

00:38:24   I I'm not gonna report that on radar like it's not worth the time to even type it up and go through the all the

00:38:29   forms

00:38:31   Then I hit menu a couple times to get out of the the like deep hierarchy of the movie structure

00:38:38   I was in to get back to the home screen. I know you can just hold it down, but I didn't

00:38:41   The first time I hit it it went boop and it did it did its thing and then the second time I hit it

00:38:46   It just went boop boop boop boop and I kept hitting it and nothing was happening and all the clicks just queued up and queued up

00:38:52   And queued up and nothing happened and I'm like, all right

00:38:54   Do I do I reset it and then like 30 seconds later it executes all of them like these they had all queued up

00:39:00   So everything's moving around like crazy.

00:39:01   I'm like, "No, no, no, no, that's not what I wanted."

00:39:04   Again, another bug.

00:39:06   Two nights ago, I had to actually unplug it

00:39:09   and plug it back in to get it to respond

00:39:11   to any remote commands.

00:39:13   I tried two different remotes.

00:39:15   We have multiple Apple TVs in the house.

00:39:17   They both have similar bugs,

00:39:18   so I know it's not just one of them being dying or flaky.

00:39:21   And I know, I mean, certainly Merlin has talked a lot

00:39:25   about his Apple TV issues too.

00:39:27   That there's issues with authenticating content.

00:39:29   It's like that. He's like the Jeffrey Zeldman of Apple TV, you know, like the way everything

00:39:33   Zeldman just has the worst Murphy's Law with anything technology like like Merlin clearly has it has caught like the Apple TV

00:39:41   branch of that that syndrome

00:39:43   Right, exactly. And I don't think I'm common, you know and like, you know

00:39:48   I so often like we'll go to watch a movie and

00:39:50   It'll sit there on authorizing forever and then eventually fail and it's really like come on. I bought this at these are movies

00:39:57   We bought my kid is like sitting down. He wants to watch something if it doesn't show him in a minute

00:40:02   He's gonna start getting antsy and possibly scream like come on. Just just come on work

00:40:06   That's all like and this is just the Apple TV, right and and and airplay to the Apple TV

00:40:12   Works about a quarter of the time and it doesn't work

00:40:16   I can vouch for the fact that it doesn't work with a two or three year old to

00:40:20   Try to explain how in the old in the old days

00:40:23   We'd have to get in the car and drive to blockbuster and the disc might be scratched

00:40:27   Right. Yeah, it does. Yeah kids kids don't want to hear it kids expect the thing that they see on the screen to

00:40:33   Play when you punch the button exactly so

00:40:37   And so this is just Apple TV

00:40:39   This is just like one week's worth of just like what I can recall not even one week

00:40:45   What I can recall over the last two days

00:40:47   This is like this is what comes over the Apple TV and that's not even not even including various like

00:40:53   infinite timeouts and failures with Netflix,

00:40:56   which I'll give Apple the benefit of the doubt

00:40:58   and assume that's Netflix's problem.

00:41:00   But even with Apple stuff,

00:41:02   authorizing the Apple purchase stuff,

00:41:03   even that, that has all those problems.

00:41:05   So that's just one product, right?

00:41:07   And it's an AirPlay, and I hear from everybody

00:41:10   that AirPlay doesn't work well for them.

00:41:12   AirPlay works fine for me if I'm going to

00:41:15   an airport express that I have

00:41:17   connected to a speaker in my kitchen.

00:41:19   It works fine for that.

00:41:20   It fails every time for Apple TV.

00:41:22   or sorry, it fails 75% of the time for Apple TV.

00:41:25   Like I'll do it a couple times, eventually it will take.

00:41:27   - AirPlay is on my list and it's high on the list

00:41:31   and in terms of like Canary and the coal mine,

00:41:34   because it used to be rock solid for me.

00:41:36   And my typical AirPlay scenario is almost always

00:41:40   is either from my phone or from an iPad to Apple TV.

00:41:44   A good example of it is we didn't have Amazon instant video

00:41:51   on TV until we got a new TiVo sometime like I think in the last year and it has Amazon

00:41:56   built in because Amazon I don't know why but they don't have an app on Apple TV whether

00:42:01   it's politics or what but if you wanted to watch something.

00:42:05   Oh it's definitely politics.

00:42:06   Yeah I'm guessing it's politics.

00:42:07   Why do you think they're advertising watches so heavily to every man who visits the site?

00:42:13   Are they really?

00:42:14   Yeah ask any ask any man who visited Amazon recently like what's on the front page and

00:42:20   It's the bottom of the first screen

00:42:24   on Amazon.com's front page is all top men's watches.

00:42:28   I have never viewed a link to a watch on Amazon.

00:42:31   I've never searched for a watch on Amazon.

00:42:33   I have done nothing that would influence that recommendation

00:42:36   and it's heavily promoting watches.

00:42:37   And I've heard, I tweeted about it a couple weeks ago

00:42:40   and a bunch of other guys were like, yeah, me too.

00:42:41   They showed screenshots.

00:42:42   Like, they're so heavily pushing watches right now.

00:42:45   It's like, come on, obviously this is about politics.

00:42:48   Mine is literally men's blue dial luxury watches.

00:42:53   (laughing)

00:42:54   I swear to God, I'm gonna send you the link right now.

00:42:56   - And have you ever looked at a watch on Amazon?

00:42:58   - See, that's the thing, that's why--

00:43:00   - You might have, all right.

00:43:00   - Yeah, 'cause I don't own, I only own two watches,

00:43:03   but I love, I've always loved watches,

00:43:05   but it's like, I only buy them

00:43:07   if I think they're absolutely perfect,

00:43:08   which is why I've only got two.

00:43:10   But I look at watches all the time.

00:43:13   I don't, and I don't really look for them on Amazon,

00:43:14   because Amazon, I don't think it's the type of place

00:43:16   where I would buy a watch.

00:43:17   I did actually I did buy one there years ago. I bought my my citizen there, but

00:43:22   No, I didn't actually I did the right thing with the citizen where I found it on Amazon

00:43:26   But I wanted to see it in person and I went to a jewelry store here in Philadelphia

00:43:30   So I could see it and it was $15 more expensive in the jewelry store

00:43:34   And I thought well, this is exactly what I should do

00:43:36   I'm gonna buy it right here because I I'm so glad there's a jewelry store here where I could see it

00:43:41   You know, I wanted to give him 15 more dollars. Wow, you know room. That's great, right?

00:43:45   I know that that's like and I thought you know what? I'm like the I'm not like the 1% like top financial people

00:43:51   I'm the 1% you know who shops thinking like that like

00:43:55   The Amazon 1%

00:43:59   Yeah, it reminds me there was a New Yorker a couple weeks ago around the cover. There was a woman

00:44:03   Answering her door to take an Amazon box from UPS

00:44:08   That was clearly like the size of the ones that they ship the books in

00:44:12   Looking awkwardly at her neighbor who runs a little neighborhood bookstore

00:44:16   But anyway, I do have men's blue dial luxury watches right on the front page of my Amazon, right

00:44:25   So anyway, so Apple TV, so I had to I although until we had the TiVo

00:44:29   I had to airplay Amazon to the Apple TV and

00:44:32   It always worked. It just worked. It was great and a couple days ago. I wanted to watch

00:44:39   Alpha house, which is a cool a really fun show. I like on Amazon

00:44:43   and I was too lazy to switch the TV from Apple TV where I already was to

00:44:49   TiVo and the TiVo is such a pain in the ass anyway

00:44:53   so I tried using an airplane and and it I just got like a spinner and it just spun and spun and spun and

00:44:59   Spun and spun and eventually I just did have to switch to the TiVo and use the Amazon app there

00:45:04   Yeah, that spinner should be the Apple TV logo

00:45:07   It used to run on the front for me. It used to work very very very consistently

00:45:13   Well any any video that wasn't you know, I think there's a flag you can set to say don't you can't airplay?

00:45:19   But almost nobody said it back then almost any video that I could watch on iPhone or iPad I could

00:45:25   Switch I could just flick it continuity style to the Apple TV in I don't know how many seconds but a few enough seconds that

00:45:33   It felt like magic every time and now it's really really a crap shoot

00:45:37   - Exactly, and yeah, I mean, I've owned every generation

00:45:41   of Apple TV, and we use them constantly,

00:45:43   'cause we don't have cable, like that's,

00:45:45   the Apple TV is our primary video player.

00:45:48   We are, like, the only media playback we have in our house

00:45:51   is Apple TV and a PS3 for Blu-ray discs, that's it.

00:45:55   And so we use them heavily, and it has definitely

00:46:00   been a noticeable decline, like they weren't,

00:46:02   they didn't used to be this bad.

00:46:04   And so again, we can sit here all night

00:46:05   and point out things about the Apple TV.

00:46:07   I mean, like, it's, which is, I mean,

00:46:09   this is probably as interesting as hearing somebody's

00:46:11   like terrible airline story,

00:46:13   or their dream from last night, you know?

00:46:14   So I don't want to bore the audience

00:46:16   with all the different little nitpicks

00:46:18   of like how my stuff has failed.

00:46:20   But you can look at a lot of their products recently

00:46:23   and see a lot of stories like this from everybody.

00:46:26   Glenn Fleischman solicited things on Twitter

00:46:28   and had a really good post, like kind of summarizing,

00:46:30   like here's what everyone's complaining about.

00:46:32   - Oh, did he? I didn't see that.

00:46:33   Where did he post that?

00:46:34   - On glog.glennf.com.

00:46:36   And I think, yeah, check it, anyway.

00:46:40   You can sort through his tweets for the last two days

00:46:42   to try to find a link if you're brave.

00:46:44   - My Twitter client doesn't go back that far.

00:46:46   It's a carry two days of Glenn Fleischman tweets.

00:46:51   - So-- - I don't know what client

00:46:53   you use.

00:46:54   I think you'd need like a special API.

00:46:56   I don't even think the Twitter API can handle.

00:46:57   Anyway, it is on the front page of his blog

00:47:00   and I will put it in the show notes.

00:47:02   - Yeah, so do that.

00:47:03   And then so that's part of it.

00:47:04   And I've had issues with Yosemite,

00:47:08   similar to, I know Neven Murgen was talking on Twitter

00:47:11   a couple of weeks back about,

00:47:14   he showed a screenshot of how many copies of his computer

00:47:17   there were in the finder source list

00:47:19   of the network share area of the finder left pane.

00:47:22   And it was like, "Neven Murgen's laptop, two, three, four,

00:47:25   five, six," and it's this giant list

00:47:27   of all these different copies.

00:47:29   I've had a lot of issues with that of things,

00:47:32   losing my original computer's name,

00:47:34   showing up as parentheses two,

00:47:36   or certain computers just disappearing off my network.

00:47:39   We have three computers on our home network here,

00:47:41   and one printer, and a NAS box in the closet

00:47:46   for network share stuff.

00:47:47   And at any given time, I can usually only see

00:47:50   between zero and two of them.

00:47:52   Usually you have to reboot, not the one that's browsing,

00:47:57   but you have to reboot the one that's not showing up.

00:48:00   - I haven't read Glenn's article yet.

00:48:01   Obviously, since I was unaware of it,

00:48:03   but I can't wait to.

00:48:04   But I don't know if his summary goes like this,

00:48:07   but yours does so far,

00:48:08   and a couple that I have jotted down

00:48:10   all fit in the category of things

00:48:13   that don't even have error,

00:48:14   they're not crashers,

00:48:15   and they don't have error messages.

00:48:17   - Exactly.

00:48:18   - They're just silent failures.

00:48:20   - Exactly.

00:48:21   And even-- - And so printing is--

00:48:23   - And there are some crashers,

00:48:24   but usually, like most people aren't hitting them

00:48:26   most of the time, I think.

00:48:27   Like, you know, there are, like,

00:48:29   crashers, they're a bigger problem on iOS, I think.

00:48:32   And iOS 7, I think, was worse than iOS 8

00:48:35   in regards to crashes.

00:48:36   But, so for instance, on iOS 8,

00:48:38   Overcast crashes more than it did on iOS 7

00:48:42   in a few key areas.

00:48:43   And I don't know if it's my fault or not,

00:48:44   but I've heard from a lot of other developers too.

00:48:46   One developer even posted stats.

00:48:48   Their app still runs on both, and they posted stats

00:48:50   like percentage of installs that have crashed

00:48:52   on 7 versus 8, and the percentage on 8

00:48:56   was five times higher.

00:48:57   And I've had crashes like deep in system frameworks.

00:49:02   like image IO, I have crashes,

00:49:04   like decoding JPEGs for show art.

00:49:07   That crashes a lot, and I always say it never happened on 7.

00:49:10   Stuff like that, and the background downloading system

00:49:15   occasionally has crashes.

00:49:16   The audio subsystem will crash

00:49:18   and everyone will blame me for it.

00:49:19   There's so many subsystem or API,

00:49:24   like low-level failures or crashes

00:49:26   that happen just rarely enough

00:49:28   that it's really hard to ever track it down,

00:49:30   but frequently enough that if you have a crash logger

00:49:32   in your app, you're gonna see a lot of reports for it.

00:49:35   - Another one for me, and I tweeted about this,

00:49:38   and I actually got somebody from Apple reached out

00:49:40   and they said they're gonna look into it,

00:49:42   but for me, it's the keyboard shortcuts,

00:49:46   not command keys, but like when you have

00:49:48   T-E-H go to T-E--

00:49:52   - Oh, like the Texas Band of Rip-Off?

00:49:54   - Yeah, well, I think that, all right, yeah,

00:49:58   the Texas Band of Rip-Off.

00:49:59   - Well, okay, the feature is similar to TextExpander.

00:50:02   Go ahead.

00:50:03   - I think that's a perfect example, though,

00:50:05   of them adding a feature to the system

00:50:08   in an appropriate way where it still leaves

00:50:11   TextExpander plenty of room.

00:50:13   - Oh, yeah. - Right?

00:50:14   'Cause they just do, you type this, you get that,

00:50:17   whereas TextExpander has all of the interactive stuff

00:50:20   where you can have, you know--

00:50:22   - You have like forms almost from TextExpander.

00:50:23   - Yeah, or like I've got the TextExpander ones

00:50:26   to put the date in certain formats.

00:50:27   - Right, right. - So I just type,

00:50:28   you know, type my key, you know, my little shortcut

00:50:30   and I get today's date right the way I like it.

00:50:32   You can't do that, you know, dynamic ones, variables.

00:50:35   Anyway, but they used to sync between devices

00:50:40   and then they stopped syncing.

00:50:44   And they stopped syncing when I switched

00:50:46   to the iCloud documents in the cloud beta.

00:50:51   - The drive?

00:50:52   - iCloud drive beta, which I had to do over summer,

00:50:53   I didn't have to, but I did over summer

00:50:55   'cause I was beta testing some stuff that, you know,

00:50:58   I wanted to use it and try it.

00:50:59   And so the fact that it stopped working then, I understood.

00:51:02   Because maybe they were using, you know,

00:51:03   and they warn you, hey, when you switch, you can't go back,

00:51:06   you know, you're always on it.

00:51:07   And so I thought, oh, so that's interesting.

00:51:09   They must have been using the old storage APIs

00:51:12   for these keyboard shortcuts, and that's how they did it.

00:51:15   But now, you know, here it was like two months

00:51:17   after everything had come out of beta, you know.

00:51:19   I was running a new phone, running iOS 9.

00:51:23   I was running a new,

00:51:26   It's just to make it even more likely that it should work,

00:51:29   a brand new retina MacBook Pro

00:51:32   running the non-beta version of Yosemite.

00:51:36   And they still weren't syncing.

00:51:40   Nothing was syncing.

00:51:41   None of the most shortcuts were syncing.

00:51:43   And then, and this to me emblemizes the sort of thing

00:51:48   I'm thinking that is the modern Apple unsteady software.

00:51:55   They did start syncing, but not all of them.

00:51:58   And now, like on my phone and on my Mac,

00:52:02   almost all of them are the same.

00:52:06   And I definitely never once,

00:52:07   'cause I wanted to see what would happen.

00:52:09   I never once said, okay, just take 10 minutes

00:52:11   and reproduce them in both places so you have them all.

00:52:15   I just waited, and they're mostly there.

00:52:16   But there's one in particular,

00:52:18   it's sort of like a game of Where's Waldo,

00:52:20   like scrolling the two lists,

00:52:21   trying to find the ones that are missing.

00:52:22   And it's even made more difficult

00:52:23   because they sort in a different order,

00:52:26   in terms of the way ones that--

00:52:28   - Terrible.

00:52:29   - The way that ones, like, regular,

00:52:31   if it's just alphabetical characters,

00:52:33   they sort alphabetically,

00:52:34   but the Mac puts the ones with punctua,

00:52:36   leading punctuation at the top,

00:52:38   and the iPhone puts ones with leading punctuation

00:52:40   at the bottom.

00:52:41   So it's a little hard to compare them.

00:52:44   - Again, none of this is a reportable bug,

00:52:47   like, or rather, none of this will report itself to Apple.

00:52:50   - Yeah, and it's so hard, but I know, for example,

00:52:53   I have a custom one because you can use it to add custom words.

00:52:57   It's not even like an expansion, but I use the word navbar as all one word,

00:53:03   N-A-V-B-A-R, all the time when I'm talking with Dave Whiskus about Vesper.

00:53:08   It's just why I call the thing at the top the navbar.

00:53:12   And it's always on the iPhone, like when I'd be iMessaging him,

00:53:16   auto-correcting it into who knows what.

00:53:18   Just random guesses from the dictionary that were close.

00:53:21   So I put it in my thing, and it's on my phone, which is the place where I need it, but it's

00:53:26   not on my Mac.

00:53:28   Whereas the other, I don't know, there's maybe 30 of them, seem mostly in sync.

00:53:33   Crazy.

00:53:34   And there's never an error message, there's never an error on any device that says, "Hey,

00:53:39   you've got a problem with your keyboard shortcut syncing, turn it off, turn it back on again,"

00:53:44   or anything.

00:53:45   Nothing.

00:53:46   No errors.

00:53:47   I just don't have some of them on both devices.

00:53:49   It's even worse with this cloud stuff because you have so little insight as to what the

00:53:53   problem is, if there's even a problem, or how to fix a problem once it happens.

00:53:59   So if you look at Apple's crash rate history, let's say somebody inside Apple is looking

00:54:07   at like, "Well, we have the same rate of crashes now that we did five years ago," or whatever

00:54:12   it is.

00:54:14   I think you have to also consider that now

00:54:17   we are doing a lot more with our devices and our computers.

00:54:21   We have more devices and computers interacting

00:54:23   with each other per person, especially around

00:54:26   in these crowds.

00:54:27   And the cloud services are this other factor.

00:54:31   And so I said this in ATP, so I won't go too far

00:54:34   into it here, but let's say you have like a 1% bug rate

00:54:39   for like, when you're using this app or this service

00:54:43   of the OS, 1% of the time it won't work right.

00:54:46   Obviously this is made up, but bear with me.

00:54:48   If then you consider the interaction

00:54:52   of two different apps or services that have the same rate,

00:54:55   it's 2%.

00:54:57   If you consider it again, it's not three,

00:55:00   if you consider a third one, it's not 3%, it's 4%.

00:55:02   'Cause these things don't add, they multiply.

00:55:05   Because every, as you add more possible ways

00:55:08   of interaction between applications, services,

00:55:11   cloud services, devices, all those failure rates,

00:55:15   the chances that any one thing is gonna go wrong somehow

00:55:18   is the multiple, the product of all of those factors,

00:55:23   not the sum.

00:55:24   So this grows geometrically.

00:55:26   And so as you make things more complicated,

00:55:28   as our devices can do more,

00:55:30   as we have more devices interacting with each other

00:55:32   and also interacting with the cloud services,

00:55:34   all of these error factors are all multiplied.

00:55:38   And so you have to, you can't just keep quality

00:55:41   the same as it used to be,

00:55:43   like the quality rate per service or per app.

00:55:47   It has to actually get better over time

00:55:49   to keep the same overall error rate

00:55:51   from happening to somebody.

00:55:53   - Yeah.

00:55:54   Yeah, and I'm not accusing anybody at Apple of incompetence,

00:55:59   'cause I don't think any of these bugs are universal.

00:56:02   It's not like nobody can play AirPlay.

00:56:04   I'm sure-- - And I've written

00:56:05   worse bugs today.

00:56:06   I mean like I fixed a really embarrassing bug two hours ago in overcast like really embarrassing. I would bet good

00:56:13   I mean, that's how real bugs are real bugs are edge cases to some degree

00:56:17   Maybe that's a big edge, but it's you know, something you didn't think of this is a big edge

00:56:20   I'm thinking most of the time I'm thinking if you go to an Apple store and buy a new Apple TV and you pick up

00:56:27   a new iPhone or iPad and you set them up and create a brand new iCloud account and

00:56:34   Go to use airplay. It'll just work. It'll I'll bet 99 times out of 100 that will just work

00:56:41   There's no bug that's keeping most people from doing it

00:56:44   But there's clearly some bugs that you know, and who knows it might be like a hundred different bugs

00:56:49   you know that result in the same thing and they're all you know, just

00:56:52   1/10 of 1% of people have taken that path

00:56:57   But then it in the aggregate it winds up where there's a lot of people who are having trouble trouble with stuff like this

00:57:03   - Exactly, and again, so many of these things

00:57:06   are hard to report or too minor to report

00:57:10   individual problems through the bug reporter system.

00:57:12   And the bug reporter system too

00:57:14   is about as hostile as it can be.

00:57:17   If you go to actually report a bug on Apple's bug reporter,

00:57:22   you'll be greeted, first of all,

00:57:24   is it still iOS 6 themed?

00:57:26   I think it is, right?

00:57:28   - Yeah.

00:57:29   - So you-- - Which was a big improvement

00:57:30   over the Aqua theme it used to have.

00:57:33   Well, they gave it the iOS 6 theme like three days before iOS 7 was unveiled

00:57:37   Remember it had but it had like a 10-point Oh

00:57:40   I don't like like when it was bad when aqua was really stripy

00:57:45   it had the big pinstripes horizontal pinstripes a long time and

00:57:48   Yeah, they updated it to like an iOS 6

00:57:52   Look right right before iOS 7 came it was like it was like days or weeks before it was hilarious

00:57:58   Like it was like obviously these two groups weren't talking to each other about that. Oh anyway

00:58:02   So you're greeted with this pretty terrible web app,

00:58:07   first of all, and it asks you for like 17 different fields,

00:58:12   and then you fill your stuff out,

00:58:13   and then you submit it, and they say,

00:58:15   "All right, thanks, we'll look into it, here's a number."

00:58:18   And in most cases of bugs I've filed,

00:58:21   I've filed maybe, I don't know,

00:58:22   50 bugs so far in my life with Apple,

00:58:26   in almost every case you will never hear about it again.

00:58:28   They won't even tell you if it's a duplicate,

00:58:30   they won't even tell you if it's closed,

00:58:31   it'll sit there open forever.

00:58:34   Sometimes they will tell you after like three months,

00:58:39   this is a known bug, it's a duplicate of this other bug ID,

00:58:42   thank you.

00:58:43   But then you lose all visibility.

00:58:45   Then you can't tell when that other bug ID is closed.

00:58:47   Like they just basically close your bug saying,

00:58:50   all right, thanks.

00:58:51   - All right, I just logged into my radar account

00:58:53   and here's one that I filed on the 20th of March, 2009.

00:58:59   state open rank no value and it's here's what I said I said when you control it said products

00:59:06   of fari when you control click right click on a background tab in safari for you get

00:59:12   a menu with options for things like creating a new tab closing the tab reloading the tab

00:59:16   and so forth it would be nice if there were an option to copy the URL for that tab that

00:59:22   way you could copy the URL for a background tab in a background window without either

00:59:26   activating that window or that particular tab. I think it's a reasonable

00:59:30   request. I'm not saying it's great, but it's the fact that it's just

00:59:34   there green open. Yep, like still waiting for response from Apple and that's and

00:59:40   it's this is this is not uncommon. This is the common case. I'm not mad that they

00:59:47   haven't done it. Actually let me see. No, you still can't copy a tab. Nope, it's the

00:59:55   the same option for our listing.

00:59:56   So I'm not mad that they haven't taken my suggestion

00:59:58   and done something.

00:59:59   But that's what, for everybody at Apple always telling me,

01:00:02   that's what I should do with an idea like that,

01:00:04   is file a radar.

01:00:05   - Right. - Right?

01:00:06   But the fact that it's open,

01:00:07   like I wouldn't mind if they just said closed,

01:00:09   no, we don't think copy belongs in that menu.

01:00:12   Okay, you know, thanks for considering the idea.

01:00:15   It's the fact that it looks to me

01:00:16   as though nobody's ever looked at it.

01:00:18   - Right, and they probably never will until at some point,

01:00:21   some intern is tasked with going through that list,

01:00:24   and they just like bulk close them all

01:00:25   or send like a form letter to all of them saying,

01:00:28   all right, you know, is this still a problem?

01:00:30   Please provide a sample project to illustrate the problem.

01:00:32   And then if you don't,

01:00:33   this will automatically close in a day.

01:00:34   Like that's the kind of thing you get.

01:00:37   I mean, it's just, I mean, let's see, I have,

01:00:40   so my oldest is 2011.

01:00:43   I have four bugs here in one of my accounts,

01:00:47   2011, 2011, 2013, all green, no responses.

01:00:52   I mean, so this is the problem I have with,

01:00:54   you know, the typical Apple answer is,

01:00:57   well, please, you have to file a bug for any bugs you find

01:01:00   or any feature requests you have or et cetera.

01:01:02   If you're gonna say that,

01:01:04   if that's gonna be your default response,

01:01:07   this system has to be better.

01:01:08   This system has to, it has to be less hostile

01:01:11   and it has to somehow give some kind of satisfactory result.

01:01:16   Even if it's as simple as after like a week,

01:01:20   You say, thanks, we're taking this into consideration,

01:01:24   or we'll have somebody look at this and then close it.

01:01:27   Some kind of something that indicates

01:01:29   to the person who filed the bug

01:01:31   that it was worth their time to have filed it.

01:01:34   And that's the problem.

01:01:35   Right now you don't have that.

01:01:36   And so there's no incentive for individuals to file bugs

01:01:41   if you think anyone else will have ever filed the same bug.

01:01:44   - Well, there's the adage that insanity

01:01:46   is doing the same thing, the definition of insanity

01:01:49   is doing the same thing over and over and over again

01:01:51   and expecting different results.

01:01:54   And it's, you know, that makes a lot of sense,

01:01:57   it's actually true.

01:01:58   That's, to me, it seems almost insane

01:02:00   to keep filing radars when you,

01:02:04   expecting them to be dealt with when your experience is,

01:02:08   this is just a waste of my time.

01:02:09   - Exactly, and I've had so many people

01:02:11   who work at Apple tell me, please file radars,

01:02:14   they really do matter, they really do help,

01:02:16   please keep filing them.

01:02:18   And they all say too, they all say that they get

01:02:20   a surprisingly low number of radars filed.

01:02:24   Like you would expect certain things to have a lot

01:02:26   and they say certain feature requests

01:02:27   or major feature requests will have like seven radars

01:02:30   ever filed on them or something.

01:02:31   But the problem is they're yelling at us saying,

01:02:35   "Please file bugs."

01:02:36   Their actions don't back that up.

01:02:39   What we see on the outside is extremely hostile

01:02:43   and demotivating.

01:02:46   - Yeah, hold that thought 'cause I wanna come back to that.

01:02:47   But yes, I want to come back to it with a big section, but I'll do a break

01:02:51   But before I take the break, I just wanted to say another thing too

01:02:53   was

01:02:55   That your article that one of the things that had me nodding my head with your article as sort of

01:02:59   yeah, like now I kind of feel like one of them being like a Windows user is

01:03:04   So we've got a laser printer here

01:03:07   It's an HP and I'm pretty happy with the quality and it does Wi-Fi and you want the same one I did right? Ah

01:03:13   maybe I do it's the

01:03:15   CP 1525NW.

01:03:20   - Yeah, it's one of HP's wonderful,

01:03:22   yeah, you asked me what to buy and I told you,

01:03:24   but get that one.

01:03:25   - Yeah, I did take my usual just ask Marco.

01:03:28   Yeah, and it exposes--

01:03:29   - I still have mine, it works fine.

01:03:31   - It exposes it? - Well, except when it dies,

01:03:32   except when it disappears from my network for--

01:03:34   - And it lies, oh, it lies so bad

01:03:36   about how much toner it has left.

01:03:37   It lies like a thief in the night.

01:03:39   - Mine has been saying it has extremely low supply levels

01:03:42   for about three years and is still printing just fine.

01:03:45   It is telling me I'm low on color.

01:03:48   I print color, I swear to God, like once a year Jonas has like a school product that

01:03:52   needs color.

01:03:53   I print everything black and white.

01:03:54   I know you've got plenty of color.

01:03:56   You lying bastards.

01:03:58   Anyway, and you know what?

01:04:00   With the black, it told me that I ran out of black and eventually I really did run out.

01:04:04   But it was telling me, it was like giving me this error message like, "I've got no toner,

01:04:08   none, nothing."

01:04:09   And then the paper would come out and it looks great.

01:04:11   It just looks great. And I know what I've from working as

01:04:15   student newspapers and doing print graphic design for years before I know what low toner looks like it's pretty obvious

01:04:23   It's not a subtle change like this. It's like yeah when when your printer is actually running a toner

01:04:28   It looks like it like yeah, it's right there right into your face. Like it looks exactly what it sounds like

01:04:34   It's like wow, I can hardly read this. The letters are almost right. Everything's all spotted and yeah, like you could definitely tell anyway

01:04:40   it exposes itself over bonjour and so yeah I don't know but so that set it up

01:04:48   is really kind of easy and I'm gonna have to say and going back even further

01:04:53   the thing that cracked me up about the Business Insider headline is calling you

01:04:56   a longtime Mac user or longtime Apple supporter I don't know it's like anybody

01:05:00   who joined the team in 2003 you're not a long time 2004 I was even and I was

01:05:05   using Windows until 2005 like I was in them both for a while one of the things

01:05:09   that was never as good on Mac OS X as classic Mac OS was setting up printers.

01:05:14   Like in the old days, because you know, and it used to be that you had to get

01:05:17   like an Apple printer, like either one from Apple, Apple believe it or not used

01:05:21   to make printers, or you know like some kind of Apple compatible printer. But it

01:05:25   always just worked. It was the the maybe the one of the canonical examples of the

01:05:31   differences between Apple's it just works experience and the PC world. You

01:05:36   never had to worry about drivers, anything like that. You just plug it in

01:05:39   There it is shows up in your chooser you pick the printer and boom it works like just it was never a problem and

01:05:46   In Mac OS X I thought that just got worse and it was sort of the shift to industry standard printers and short of

01:05:53   just the

01:05:56   that those

01:05:57   Underpinnings of next were never as hooked up to like, you know

01:06:01   The print world is Apple's classic Mac OS was but anyway, it got better for a while

01:06:07   This printer when I first got it was great

01:06:09   It's you go to the printer thing and system preferences and there it is listed you hit plus there it is listed

01:06:15   It's like here's a bone sure printer. Is this the one you want? Yes, there it is

01:06:18   just the last week I went to print something and it

01:06:23   You know and I it's the only printer I have the only printer I use I hadn't

01:06:28   Changed it and it just said it, you know printer can't be reached or something and nothing would it just wouldn't come out

01:06:34   Like it was just the jobs were queuing up in that thing in the dock

01:06:38   So I deleted it

01:06:39   I deleted the printer and I went to read it and it wasn't even listed and in the old and I you know what I did

01:06:45   I just thought I screw it

01:06:47   I'll print from Amy's and I like went to it emailed it to Amy and printed from Amy's computer

01:06:51   and it worked and then I just left it at that and I realized when I read your article that in the old days like

01:07:00   three four or five years ago when I I would have instantly thought it's got to be the printer and

01:07:04   went upstairs and just turned the printer on and off and in fact that actually worked I did

01:07:10   After you know, it was your article that made me test it

01:07:12   I went up turn the printer off turn it back on and then boom it just worked

01:07:15   Reconnecting it to my Mac. So it was the printers fault, but in the old days

01:07:20   I would have just assumed it was the printers fault. Whereas now I thought screw it something's wrong with Yosemite. I

01:07:27   I think, well, I've had the same issue, and it's like I have the same issue with other Yosemite

01:07:33   Macs that are on the network. So I think it's an issue with Yosemite losing its connection to the

01:07:40   printer, like losing its discovery of the printer. So Yosemite, they rewrote some part of the

01:07:46   networking stack. I don't know the details, but they basically combined some of the discovery and

01:07:51   and that related stuff into this new thing

01:07:53   called Discovery-D.

01:07:55   - Yes.

01:07:56   - And people keep reporting a lot of WiFi

01:08:00   and network discovery issues with Yosemite.

01:08:02   It's probably related to that,

01:08:04   because they changed a bunch of that

01:08:05   to enable things like continuity and handoff

01:08:07   and stuff like that,

01:08:08   and airdrops between the two.

01:08:10   So that stuff all changed in Yosemite,

01:08:13   so that's most likely the source of the problem.

01:08:14   - So my spidey sense that it was Yosemite

01:08:16   probably is right.

01:08:17   It's just that the solution of turning the printer

01:08:19   off and on probably isn't even HP's fault.

01:08:23   - No, it almost certainly isn't,

01:08:24   'cause I have the same problem

01:08:25   with every Mac on the network.

01:08:27   - I believe it.

01:08:28   Networking problems in general,

01:08:31   and again, not one networking issue,

01:08:33   but just Hockenberry's description of it

01:08:36   as a thousand paper cuts is exactly right,

01:08:38   is a big chunk of them seem to be networking.

01:08:40   - And networking is hard.

01:08:41   This is what, as you said earlier,

01:08:45   we know Apple has great people working for them.

01:08:48   we know that these aren't idiots doing this.

01:08:51   But the fact is, my point in the piece was,

01:08:55   they're doing too much, and it's really starting to show,

01:08:58   it always feels like we're using a 1.0 release or a beta.

01:09:03   There used to be some kind of stability

01:09:07   between betas and the GMs.

01:09:10   It was never perfect, but there used to be

01:09:13   a differentiator, like, okay, well,

01:09:14   stuff's gonna stop changing right before the GM

01:09:17   by some interval of time, and the GM will be a higher degree of quality than the betas

01:09:22   were, and then a couple revisions down the line, once you have like a .3, .4 kind of

01:09:27   range, it'll be really stable for the next year and a half until they release a new major

01:09:32   version.

01:09:33   If you treat it, it used to be, I think, for a number of years, and I would say it probably

01:09:36   covers the years, your early years on the platform, like that 2004 to 2008-ish, '09-ish

01:09:43   period.

01:09:44   you just had the conservative patience to treat every release as like minus one

01:09:51   you do pretty well so in other words trust that the betas are gonna suck and

01:09:57   trust that the GM is really just a beta and then trust that the 1.0 release of

01:10:04   the OS is really like a public beta and wait for like the first major public

01:10:10   update after the 1.0, you know, after system, you know, iOS 5.0 ships. Wait for 5.01 or

01:10:18   maybe 5.02 and you'll have a really solid OS.

01:10:23   Exactly. And these days it feels like we never reach that point of like a few point X's in

01:10:31   and now it's stable. Like now we're always in the beta 1.0, 1.1 loop it seems. And I

01:10:37   though like, you know, technically version wise, they've they've passed 1.1 with some of these but like it just seems like yeah

01:10:43   we and any and the GM seem

01:10:45   so

01:10:47   Minimally different from the betas in terms of quality like even worse than they used than they used to be like

01:10:51   It seems like we're just always in beta now seems like they're they only get around to fixing the crashers

01:10:56   You know the big one, right and they never get around to the cleanup and it's guy

01:10:59   English's point that the annual cycle means that and you know

01:11:03   we're probably hitting that point right now where a lot of engineering talent at Apple is probably going towards the

01:11:10   WWDC releases of what I you know are I'm guessing will be iOS

01:11:16   9 9 and

01:11:19   System 10.11 exactly like this cycle. It doesn't leave time for

01:11:25   stability really it doesn't leave time for all those boring little bug fixes to be applied to the old ancient version that we're all still using

01:11:33   because nothing ever gets that old.

01:11:36   - Yeah.

01:11:37   Let me take a break and thank our second sponsor

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01:13:32   A month?

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01:13:34   - The trial?

01:13:35   - Yeah, they don't even tell you how much.

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01:13:37   I think it starts out as a week, but then when you hit that week, they'll send you an

01:13:42   email saying, "Hey, do you want more time?"

01:13:43   And you just click a link and they give you another week.

01:13:46   - Yeah, that's how confident they are that you're gonna stick with it, because once your

01:13:50   free trial's over, eventually, you're gonna be like, "I'd be nuts to leave, this is great."

01:13:56   You do it with no credit card required.

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01:14:02   Free.

01:14:03   So, the URL to know that they came from the show is squarespace.com/gruber.

01:14:11   And the code when you sign up is my initials, JG.

01:14:14   I don't know why they don't match up.

01:14:17   But it's that code that you need.

01:14:18   You need to keep that in mind because it really doesn't matter what you do when you sign up.

01:14:21   Go there, just go to squarespace.com and sign up because you're going to get a free trial.

01:14:25   pay you know take the free trial to start it's when the free trial is over

01:14:28   you got to remember the code JG and when you use that code you'll save 10% so not

01:14:34   only will you help support the show but you'll save some of your own money as

01:14:38   well so my thanks to Squarespace if you need a website you're nuts if you don't

01:14:42   look at Squarespace first that's my new slogan for Squarespace I could have you

01:14:48   do all my ad for each so much better I like yours I like the one because you

01:14:51   actually had this story about your kid's school where the preschool or whatever

01:14:56   and they were gonna spend $7,000 on a website. I think it was three it was

01:15:00   three or thirty five hundred. I don't know anybody and if you everybody knows there is not a

01:15:05   schools don't have money to burn it's no it's like a little co-op preschool like

01:15:10   this is not like they don't have money it is like the kudos to you for being an

01:15:16   involved parent at the school but you were like will you give me like two days

01:15:19   [laughter]

01:15:20   You took like two days and billed them a website and now they pay...

01:15:26   Two hours and days.

01:15:27   [laughter]

01:15:28   Now they pay $8 a month.

01:15:29   Yeah, instead of $3,000.

01:15:31   Which for a website, let's face it, who knows who they were going to pay the $3,500 to,

01:15:36   but you know what?

01:15:37   It was probably going to suck.

01:15:38   Anyway, I love that story.

01:15:39   That was great.

01:15:40   Yeah, it's such a clear win for Squares.

01:15:42   And now, and like, I'm not even the person who's responsible for keeping the website

01:15:45   updated.

01:15:46   Somebody else does that.

01:15:47   Yeah.

01:15:48   to like have something that they can use that isn't like my crappy CMS or some really complicated

01:15:54   WordPress install and then if they need support I'm not their tech support. Squarespace is their

01:15:59   tech support. I'm totally out of it. Like I did my job, my job is done, my hands are clean,

01:16:03   and it's all like their system now that they can do whatever they want to and when they have a

01:16:08   question they can get support from Squarespace and not me. It's perfect. Yeah, 10 years ago that same

01:16:12   story might have been, you know, that you would have said "hey, hey" and then go sign them up for

01:16:17   like an $8 a month hosting account and put up an install of WordPress and

01:16:22   Pick a theme and do this and get like mostly the same thing

01:16:25   But that you're exactly right though then like like six months later and you're reading tech meme and there's like a big

01:16:30   Vulnerability and WordPress that was exposed and you're like, I don't think that's cool. That's cool

01:16:35   You know, there's no way they know and it's on you whether you just like

01:16:39   silently whistle and let the school keep going or whether now you're you know,

01:16:43   You're permanently on the hook for being like the you know, the guy who's gonna fix it or they're like, hey

01:16:48   You know, we want to add another widget to the sidebar

01:16:50   Can you do that for us because there's no clear way for them to do it, you know stuff like that

01:16:54   It's just it's so much better to just outsource this to Squarespace

01:16:57   The other thing I love about that anecdote of yours is I feel like it perfectly exemplifies why Squarespace

01:17:03   Advertises the way that they do that the way that they advertise over and over and over again on shows like ours

01:17:09   Never used to make sense to me, but I think it's so that you know

01:17:13   How many people really need to make a website right now?

01:17:16   Who knows?

01:17:17   Probably very few.

01:17:18   But how many over the course of the next year

01:17:20   are gonna find themselves in a situation

01:17:22   where they do need to make a website?

01:17:23   And at that moment,

01:17:24   if the first thing they think of is Squarespace,

01:17:27   boom, they go there.

01:17:28   - Exactly, yeah.

01:17:29   I think it works out very well for them that way.

01:17:31   - Right.

01:17:32   It's not about needing a website

01:17:33   while you're listening to it on the show.

01:17:34   It's seeding it in your mind

01:17:35   so that when you hit that situation

01:17:38   where your school wants to spend $4,000 on a website

01:17:41   that you say, "No, don't do that."

01:17:44   I wanna go back to what you were talking about.

01:17:48   And here's the, I have this in my notes here for the show,

01:17:51   and talk about dev relations.

01:17:53   And I think it's a big part of the problem

01:17:56   that we're talking about here.

01:17:58   And I think Apple's developer relations is overwhelmed.

01:18:03   Now, I don't know the numbers,

01:18:06   and so it's this ballpark figure.

01:18:09   But talking with somebody at Apple,

01:18:12   their rough estimate is that

01:18:15   Microsoft's developer relations team

01:18:19   is somewhere between 10 and 50 times larger than Apple's.

01:18:24   And I said, "50?"

01:18:26   And he was like, "Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised."

01:18:29   And if you're like a serious,

01:18:31   and you might know more about this than I do.

01:18:32   I've never been at,

01:18:33   I've never written a goddamn line of code for Windows.

01:18:37   But the basic idea is if you're a professional developer

01:18:42   and doing some kind of serious work on Windows,

01:18:44   you can get the attention of somebody competent

01:18:48   and who can get stuff done on their developer relations team.

01:18:52   And so if you're being driven up the wall

01:18:54   by this obscure bug in a framework,

01:18:59   you may not get a solution right away.

01:19:01   And you certainly may not get a version of Windows release

01:19:06   that has a fix for it right away.

01:19:08   But you can at least get somebody's attention

01:19:10   to get it in front of the right people.

01:19:13   And it doesn't feel like when you're reporting things

01:19:16   to Microsoft, it doesn't feel like you're, you know,

01:19:20   just filing things into a black hole.

01:19:23   And that Apple's developer relations,

01:19:26   not that they're not well-meaning,

01:19:27   but that they're just overwhelmed,

01:19:29   absolutely positively overwhelmed.

01:19:31   and it's like Microsoft's developer relations team

01:19:36   is of a size that is appropriate for a company

01:19:40   that had and saw as its rightful place

01:19:44   that 90 some percent of all software in the world

01:19:47   is written for it.

01:19:49   And Apple's developer relations is still of a scale

01:19:52   of a company that has like three or 4%

01:19:55   of the software in the world.

01:19:57   - Well also like the whole structure of how

01:20:00   like how it's set up with the public or with the developers

01:20:03   is radically different.

01:20:06   Now, I don't know how Microsoft is set up,

01:20:07   but the way Apple is set up is,

01:20:09   it's fairly hostile at first.

01:20:13   Like, Apple appears to just be this brick wall

01:20:17   that you have no way in.

01:20:20   Like, there is nowhere on, as far as I know,

01:20:23   I don't think there's like, you know,

01:20:25   a list or an email address to say like,

01:20:27   "Hey, ask a developer evangelist a question."

01:20:29   So I just searched, I've always wondered,

01:20:34   is there a public list anywhere

01:20:35   of who the Apple evangelists even are?

01:20:39   And if you search Google for Apple developer evangelists,

01:20:42   nowhere on the first page is anything from Apple.

01:20:45   There's a GitHub gist where somebody else,

01:20:48   some random person just compiled the list from WVDC

01:20:51   and there's a bunch of question marks on it too.

01:20:59   Every year at WBC, you can always tell,

01:21:03   again, in the first few days,

01:21:05   if you look around some of the bigger sessions,

01:21:07   the very last slide, they will show the presenter's name,

01:21:11   their email address, and their title.

01:21:13   That is usually the first time you see their title.

01:21:17   It is almost certainly the first time

01:21:19   you see their email address.

01:21:20   And you look around the room,

01:21:21   and when that slide is on screen for about eight seconds,

01:21:23   and you see half the room racing

01:21:25   to write down that email address.

01:21:27   - Taking pictures of it.

01:21:28   Yeah. I've noticed that in recent years now. Right. He has an iPhone. Yeah, because like,

01:21:34   that's like the that's like the first time that most people see like, Oh, my God, there's an

01:21:39   email address with somebody who works in Apple, in the developer group somewhere that I can contact.

01:21:43   Plus, I think people worry rightfully, that they want to write it down or get a picture of it now.

01:21:49   Because who knows if they're going to cut it out of the published version of the video,

01:21:53   because they cut a lot out of those videos. Right? cut mistakes out. Who knows?

01:21:57   Who knows it?

01:21:58   They cut out laughter and applause.

01:21:59   They cut out a lot.

01:22:00   Right.

01:22:01   Like if all of a sudden this guy gets overwhelmed with email, maybe they're going to take his

01:22:04   email out.

01:22:05   So you better get it down while you can.

01:22:07   I know exactly what you're talking about.

01:22:10   Right.

01:22:11   And that's weird.

01:22:12   If these people's job is to interact with the public, with the developers at least,

01:22:17   with the developer public about these frameworks and these areas of development, there's no

01:22:22   list on Apple's site anywhere that lists them?

01:22:24   Like that's weird, isn't it?

01:22:26   I don't think that it's malice. I don't think it's that they don't mean well.

01:22:30   I, and in fact,

01:22:31   the people I know in Apple developer relations for the most part are great

01:22:34   people. And at least I've never met anybody who's like,

01:22:36   I would call unpleasant. I would say really sharp.

01:22:39   I think that they are overwhelmed though. I think that they,

01:22:42   I'm sure they've staffed up somewhat, but I think for the most part,

01:22:45   they're of a basic magnitude that was appropriate for Apple

01:22:50   10, 15 years ago. Yeah. And now they're one of,

01:22:55   if not the most popular developer platform in the world,

01:22:58   and they're just overwhelmed.

01:23:00   Again, the number that I heard from somebody,

01:23:02   again, a rough estimate, but that Microsoft's team

01:23:04   is 10 to 50 times larger.

01:23:08   - Yeah, I mean-- - It's entirely different.

01:23:10   - And this list on GitHub of who the evangelists are

01:23:12   at Apple has like 12 people on it.

01:23:14   It's a pretty small list.

01:23:16   So, and like, and they are, if they're overwhelmed,

01:23:21   that would explain a lot because, you know,

01:23:23   Even like, there's developer relations managers

01:23:27   or representatives, like people will say,

01:23:29   oh, I talked to a developer rep or my developer rep.

01:23:32   I don't know how you go about getting a developer rep.

01:23:36   For the first, I don't know, five years

01:23:40   that I had an app in the app, for all of Instapaper

01:23:42   and all of the magazine, I could never find one,

01:23:46   no one ever contacted me.

01:23:48   I didn't have a developer rep, if that even is a thing.

01:23:52   It wasn't until Overcast that somebody emailed me

01:23:57   from some press thing, like they reached out.

01:24:00   And so it wasn't really until that

01:24:04   that I had a contact that I could email at Apple

01:24:08   to ask a question to or to bring a concern to.

01:24:12   It wasn't until last year.

01:24:15   And I've been in the App Store since 2008.

01:24:21   And when I mentioned this to the person, they--

01:24:24   - Let's just, and let's not mince words,

01:24:26   with some success. (laughs)

01:24:28   - Yeah.

01:24:29   - I mean, it's, again, I'm not, you know,

01:24:31   it's not like you wrote YouTube, but, you know,

01:24:35   pretty popular apps.

01:24:36   - Right, and yeah, it didn't matter.

01:24:38   And when I mentioned this to this person

01:24:40   that I had never found any contacts

01:24:42   in Developed Relations before,

01:24:43   they were like, they were surprised,

01:24:44   they were like, "Really?

01:24:45   "Are you sure?"

01:24:46   Like, that, really?

01:24:48   Like, that's, like, they were even surprised at that.

01:24:50   But I don't think that people in the developer relations

01:24:54   division, I don't think they have a good idea of how it

01:24:58   looks from the outside, of how the developer relations system

01:25:03   and how Apple as a whole appears to and communicates

01:25:07   with developers who are not in with somebody.

01:25:10   - The gist of it, what I've heard, and I believe it,

01:25:13   and it definitely plays on developer relations,

01:25:15   but they're so overwhelmed, developer relations,

01:25:17   that the reps are just, and they're not, and not known,

01:25:21   and hard to initiate contact with,

01:25:24   and even once they do, it just never becomes a priority

01:25:27   that the whole internal, I'm gonna call it radar,

01:25:30   but maybe it's not just radar,

01:25:32   maybe radar's just the database,

01:25:34   but the whole radar system is entirely geared internally

01:25:37   toward fixing bugs from within Apple itself, right?

01:25:41   So if you're one of the engineers on pages

01:25:45   and you run into a text kit bug,

01:25:48   it gets taken care of exactly as you would think.

01:25:51   And it goes up the post

01:25:52   and it gets put in front of the right person

01:25:54   and they run your example project and say,

01:25:57   "Oh, I see," and fix it.

01:25:58   And then, you know, it just works.

01:26:01   It's all, but it's,

01:26:02   there's nothing like that from the outside.

01:26:04   Like it's like 99% internal and like 1% external.

01:26:09   And I'm not saying the balance should be 50/50.

01:26:12   you know, I think it's obvious that of course Apple's gonna fix their own bugs first, but

01:26:18   it's just not even close. And it's not even like, "Oh, poor us, poor third-party developers,

01:26:25   we're not getting our bugs fixed." These are things that affect users, everybody. We're

01:26:30   fighting for these bugs because they affect the experience of the users.

01:26:34   Right, exactly. I don't know. I don't know how you solve this problem except by making

01:26:41   certain parts of Apple much bigger and that's obviously not an easy thing to do

01:26:45   like you know they're all they like Mythical Man month kind of things like

01:26:48   and I think it's a staff up I think it's a scary thing for them to do too because

01:26:53   you know they've seen it over the you know everybody's seen this industry for

01:26:58   20 years and everybody knows that Microsoft got a lot bigger and then it

01:27:02   got it got slow and lumbering right and and they also you know they're gonna

01:27:08   to have trouble staffing up possibly because when you work for Apple you have, you know,

01:27:14   you have to, first of all you have to be there. Like they don't do remote work for most things.

01:27:19   They have a couple of remote offices for certain like isolated projects but for the most part

01:27:23   they don't do remote work. So you have to be there. They're competing with everyone

01:27:28   else in the Silicon Valley region for top talent and that is, that is extremely competitive.

01:27:36   And I would imagine they probably have trouble retaining a lot of these good people because

01:27:41   like, I mean, you know, we know tons of like our friends and people we knew at Apple who

01:27:46   like they were at Apple for a while and then they want to go out and try being an iOS developer

01:27:50   or being a Mac developer themselves like independently because when you're in Apple you can't really

01:27:55   have side projects.

01:27:56   Yeah, and it's funny I bet being a developer relations rep is even more easily poached

01:28:02   because your whole job is reaching out to other people and they're going to be like,

01:28:05   you're awesome, you can work for us. Right, yeah. I bet it happens. Yeah, and if you're like an iOS

01:28:11   expert who has worked for Apple, that's a pretty good qualifier. I would imagine it makes you

01:28:16   pretty valuable on the market. So I expect that they probably have a lot of trouble first

01:28:23   attracting and then retaining great talent there, in addition to any cultural issues and challenges

01:28:29   that would come with trying to grow the company substantially larger. But I don't really see a way

01:28:34   around that being the eventual outcome. Like, I don't think they can keep the company the

01:28:40   current size. And I know they also have issues with, like, they don't have the space. Like,

01:28:44   that's why they're building this giant new campus. Like, they're out of room, too. But,

01:28:47   you know, it's--there's all these problems. But, you know, these problems aren't just

01:28:51   going to disappear. Like, and I think they are working towards that. I hope they're working

01:28:57   towards that. But I think there's going to be some uncomfortable migration, uncomfortable

01:29:01   growth as the company becomes a bigger organization, but I think it has to be.

01:29:07   Yeah, I think people are, third-party developers are exercising things that

01:29:11   just don't get exercised within Apple, you know. I would say like the extensions

01:29:17   are a perfect example of that, like the sharing extensions, where Apple knew what

01:29:22   they would be used for, but the things that Apple itself really wants in there,

01:29:26   they were already there anyway, because if Apple is collectively agreed,

01:29:30   "Hey, this should be in the sharing extension for everybody."

01:29:33   Then it was built into the systems sharing panel.

01:29:36   It was only when third-party developers started doing it.

01:29:38   But that thing is so full of little tiny bugs,

01:29:41   like the way that when you reorder them,

01:29:43   the order doesn't stick.

01:29:44   And there's just a bunch of little things like that.

01:29:48   It's just a perfect example of something

01:29:49   that to me doesn't quite work right.

01:29:52   - Right, and there was a couple of little limitations

01:29:56   that ended up having pretty big ramifications.

01:29:58   I believe it was Brian Irae of Tumblr,

01:30:00   made a nice blog post right before iOS 8 came out,

01:30:04   listing all the little challenges

01:30:06   that they had with the Tumblr extension.

01:30:07   - It was Brian Iraes.

01:30:09   - Yeah, and he did the right thing.

01:30:10   He reported them all as radars

01:30:11   and listed all the radar numbers in the post and everything.

01:30:14   But they actually, I remember,

01:30:19   well, I don't know if that's public.

01:30:21   Anyway. (laughs)

01:30:24   - What we learned building the iOS,

01:30:26   Tumblr iOS share extension.

01:30:28   - Yeah, exactly, exactly.

01:30:30   It will be in the show notes.

01:30:32   - So we have, you know, the system itself, it has bugs,

01:30:35   it has all these limitations, it's, you know,

01:30:37   that's gotta get better, and you know, hopefully it will.

01:30:39   Over time it probably will.

01:30:41   But I think, you know, and all the stuff

01:30:44   around the app rejection is pretty substantially worse too.

01:30:48   Like all the rejections around this,

01:30:49   I think what we're seeing is the policy

01:30:54   from Apple is pretty clear.

01:30:56   The policy is, the implied policy rather,

01:31:00   is keyboards should not contain anything

01:31:03   that isn't a keyboard.

01:31:04   Like, you know, it shouldn't be able to do anything

01:31:07   that is not like text entry.

01:31:09   You know, it shouldn't have any other cool features

01:31:13   built in, like a calculator built into your keyboard.

01:31:15   Like, they obviously, like, this is the implied rule.

01:31:18   Your keyboard should only be a keyboard of some sort.

01:31:21   - Yeah. - No extras.

01:31:23   - Can't put a version of Desert Golfing in as a keyboard.

01:31:25   - Correct, similarly, your today view,

01:31:28   your today extension or widget, whatever they're called,

01:31:30   your today view should or must be in general

01:31:35   a quick glance kind of thing.

01:31:37   It shouldn't be the place where you spend time,

01:31:39   it shouldn't be a place where you complete

01:31:41   a long running task, it should just be a quick view.

01:31:45   Those are the implied rules.

01:31:47   But they won't come out and say that.

01:31:48   Like they won't codify that and say, this is the rule,

01:31:51   it's a high level rule, this should only be used for this.

01:31:55   Like, that's clearly what they want,

01:31:58   but what they're saying instead is,

01:32:01   well, we're gonna try to draw the line exactly where,

01:32:04   like more precisely where they should be, more lower level,

01:32:06   and they're gonna say, well, you can't have buttons

01:32:07   that launch your app, or you can't complete the task,

01:32:09   or you can't have too many buttons,

01:32:11   or you can't have this kind of button,

01:32:12   or you can't simulate a keyboard in here today,

01:32:14   or you're like, they try to come up

01:32:15   with all these little tiny explanations

01:32:17   of lower level implementation detail rules,

01:32:21   but that's clearly not, like, those are all just,

01:32:24   you know, that is somebody not wanting to state

01:32:27   the real rule, the higher level rule,

01:32:30   which is this system is intended only for this,

01:32:33   you're only allowed to do this.

01:32:35   And it's just not, I don't know,

01:32:39   I don't know why they won't just say the higher level rule,

01:32:41   because I think that would actually generate

01:32:44   less controversy and would be easier

01:32:46   for developers to follow and to know,

01:32:48   like, certainly some developers would be like,

01:32:50   well, does this count?

01:32:51   But you know, you see the high level rule

01:32:52   and that would at least give you some idea

01:32:54   Like if I stray from this, it's gonna be rocky territory

01:32:57   and a rejection risk.

01:32:58   - I think the App Store stuff definitely plays into it.

01:33:01   I don't know how different that is

01:33:02   from typical dev relations, but it ought to be tied up

01:33:05   because it's, in Apple's view, the App Store is,

01:33:08   and for iOS, it absolutely is the only way,

01:33:11   other than the enterprise stuff, you know,

01:33:13   it's the only way, it's an inextricable part

01:33:16   of the development process.

01:33:17   So App Store problems should be considered

01:33:19   developer relation problems.

01:33:21   The whole thing, like with the recent things,

01:33:24   panic has gone through and like where they had the the issue with their

01:33:28   Saving feature in transmit where you know

01:33:34   they didn't want them to be able to save to iCloud Drive and therefore they had to take the whole thing out because

01:33:38   Even the stuff that hooks up to Dropbox and box.net because there's no control over that

01:33:43   And then you know, I wrote about it a couple other people wrote about it

01:33:47   And then you know, saner saner mines prevailed and okay

01:33:51   They got it fixed and there's this whole angle that everybody agrees on everybody that you shouldn't have to have you know

01:33:57   Daring fireball publish it to get your story fixed

01:34:02   you shouldn't have to go public to get that and you shouldn't have to be of the

01:34:07   prominence of panic

01:34:11   To do that, you know like some upstart who nobody's heard of yet should be able to get this, you know the same reasonable

01:34:17   correction

01:34:19   with an App Store problem that Panic got.

01:34:22   Right, and they have the appeal system set up there. So like in theory this it should work.

01:34:29   You should be able to go to the appeal which like, you know, from what I understand,

01:34:33   so, you know, you have the reviewers on one level and from what I understand the appeal doesn't just go to the same people, it

01:34:38   goes to like a level above those people. And so if some reviewer just made a bad call,

01:34:42   the appeal should work. The system that's in place there should work.

01:34:47   The question is why doesn't it work as well as we're into the press like right we're into the press and making a big stink

01:34:54   Yeah, that's gonna work just by the way PR works that that's gonna work a little bit better. You know on occasion, but

01:34:59   It shouldn't work so much better

01:35:02   It shouldn't be like like and and in panic even said I mean panic will say these things in the nicest way possible

01:35:07   Because you know they don't want to start on a any stuff, but but you know they even said like it's unfortunate

01:35:14   But you know this method is what works. Yeah, and we've gotten a queue branch

01:35:19   we've gotten bugs fixed because we know people who work on the framework that we're having the problem with and we could

01:35:27   You know

01:35:28   I think literally at at WWDC Brent had like coffee with somebody and showed

01:35:33   The example product which he had already submitted months ago in a radar, you know

01:35:37   Here's a simple 13 line example prod project that shows the bug exactly

01:35:41   But he got to show it to a guy from the framework team

01:35:44   Right in his face, you know, not not a confrontation, you know Brent

01:35:48   But it was like drinking, you know drinking coffee at the hotel bar and the guy was like, oh I see

01:35:52   Oh, I bet I know what that is

01:35:53   And he like, you know made a note of it and but you shouldn't have to know somebody and have coffee with an engineer

01:35:59   You know, it's just because Brent knew that, you know knew him for years

01:36:02   That doesn't scale to say that that doesn't scale is you know?

01:36:08   self-evident. Right, I mean, so you have, in the reality of the iOS ecosystem and the

01:36:14   Mac, the reality of the Apple dev ecosystem is that you have the official channels up

01:36:20   that are just this tremendous wall and filter. And what you said earlier makes sense that

01:36:26   they are extremely understaffed in these areas or they're not skilling very well. That explains

01:36:31   a lot because it seems like where the general public is shown to go is just a wall that

01:36:38   is extremely ineffective, has very few ways in, and it is just very off-putting and just,

01:36:45   you know, they're trying to deflect everyone. It's like when you call a big company and

01:36:49   you get put on hold for 35 minutes on some touch-tone menu that really wants you to follow

01:36:53   its self-help options. Like, they don't want you to get in through the public way because

01:36:58   they can't handle it all. Then you have all of us going through, like, the side door because

01:37:03   we know somebody, and that ends up working better. That's not good. Like, that should

01:37:08   be embarrassing that should be a major problem.

01:37:10   And it seems like something they could fix because you know, like, and again, I think

01:37:14   the biggest problem is what you said, which is just that hiring talented people in general

01:37:18   is hard. And it's especially hard in the valley. But, you know, guess what works money and

01:37:25   guess what Apple has to have money. So I can't help but think it is fixable.

01:37:30   Well, and you know, who's to say they have to always keep everybody in Cupertino? Right?

01:37:36   Like there are parts of their business that can be easily at some other location.

01:37:41   Like I work as in Pittsburgh.

01:37:43   Like there are parts of Apple's business that can be other places.

01:37:47   And I think Gus was saying they're opening up an office in Seattle.

01:37:51   So like it looks like they might be starting to be more willing to branch this out a little

01:37:55   bit.

01:37:56   But yeah, I think the Seattle office is going to be cloud stuff.

01:37:59   I don't know.

01:38:00   Yeah, that's the rumor.

01:38:01   I don't know if we have any good info on that yet.

01:38:04   So I think they need to start breaking down some of these barriers with themselves of

01:38:12   the way they've always done things or the rules they have internally.

01:38:17   If they say everyone has to work on site, you better make more sites and more places

01:38:22   because they have to become a bigger company.

01:38:26   There are so many areas where they are clearly understaffed or under-resourced.

01:38:30   And as you said, it's not for money.

01:38:32   It's not because of money.

01:38:33   far as we can tell. Unless they foresee a near-term future where they're not

01:38:39   going to have so many third-party developers, and I don't see how they

01:38:42   could possibly think that because it doesn't seem, I don't see how that's

01:38:46   possible, they really need a bigger developer relations team. Much bigger.

01:38:51   Like factor of ten. With not just headcount but with authority within the

01:38:57   company to get issues escalated and put in front of the right people. And as

01:39:03   this week has gone on and this has been the topic of the week, I'm thinking, my

01:39:07   thinking has shifted more and more that it's a lot more a developer relations

01:39:11   problem and a lot less due to what I initially had been thinking for a long

01:39:16   time, which is the annual release cycle of the two OSes. Well, I think there's two

01:39:21   different problems. I mean, I think there's, I think it's, you know, it's

01:39:25   clearly multi-variable and those are both definitely two of the variables,

01:39:29   Absolutely, but my thinking has shifted in terms of which one is a bigger problem and I

01:39:35   Think to which one to my eyes meshes with the timeline of what I'm seeing

01:39:43   I've you know, I think that it's as iOS has gotten more complicated and therefore there are more things that could go wrong

01:39:51   and as the the the

01:39:55   ratio of developers to

01:39:58   developer relations people within Apple

01:40:00   has gotten more and more absurd,

01:40:03   that correlates to me, to my eyes,

01:40:05   with the shift in quality.

01:40:08   And again, I think Hockenberry nailed it.

01:40:10   It's like loose screws.

01:40:13   It's the software equivalent of loose screws.

01:40:16   - Yeah, just like sloppy little flaws that aren't fatal,

01:40:19   but yeah, I mean, and I think these problems are intertwined.

01:40:23   You know, like, it's hard to say,

01:40:27   well, developer relations is responsible

01:40:28   for a general decline in quality

01:40:31   in Apple software and services.

01:40:32   - Right, that's too simple, that's way too simple.

01:40:34   - Right, but-- - And that's why--

01:40:36   - But you can look at certain parts,

01:40:37   you can say like, well, if they're saying

01:40:41   that they're not seeing more bugs being reported,

01:40:43   and therefore they don't know what problems to fix,

01:40:45   they don't have enough information to fix them,

01:40:47   why aren't more bugs being reported?

01:40:49   And then you can start following that rabbit hole,

01:40:50   and be like, oh, well, actually,

01:40:52   this is related to developer relations,

01:40:54   or related to the bug reporter system,

01:40:56   or related to the image Apple has among developers,

01:40:58   and the personality, 'cause the personality

01:41:02   of individual people within Apple I've spoken with

01:41:04   or that I know couldn't possibly be more different

01:41:08   than the public persona of Apple.

01:41:10   The public persona of Apple is, as I said,

01:41:12   it's a brick wall and it's pretty terse

01:41:15   and it's pretty unwelcoming to developers

01:41:18   and to public input of any kind, really.

01:41:21   But the individual people I've met and spoken with at Apple

01:41:25   are the complete opposite.

01:41:26   They're friendly, normal people.

01:41:27   They're a lot of our friends.

01:41:29   So why is that disconnect there?

01:41:31   - They take enormous pride in their work.

01:41:33   Like if you are lucky enough to get your bug

01:41:36   in front of the person who can,

01:41:37   like an engineer who can fix it,

01:41:39   they're gonna take care of it.

01:41:40   They are offended by any and all bugs.

01:41:43   - Right, because they're good engineers.

01:41:45   So what is the disconnect here?

01:41:47   Is it a process issue?

01:41:49   Is it a policy issue?

01:41:50   Is it just like inertia going in the wrong direction

01:41:54   and certain things?

01:41:54   I don't know.

01:41:55   But the issues at Apple are seemingly deep rooted.

01:42:00   It's something that's like not budging,

01:42:03   you know, like some part of the culture inside

01:42:05   or the process, the way things are done

01:42:08   is it needs to be modernized and it hasn't been yet.

01:42:12   And that's not an easy thing to do.

01:42:13   You know, that's, I mean,

01:42:14   I don't know anything about big companies, but.

01:42:16   - I wonder how much too, that the historical artifacts

01:42:20   of the size of their developer relations team

01:42:23   being relatively small,

01:42:24   how much of that relates to not just the fact that 10, 15,

01:42:28   20 years ago, Apple was a smaller company,

01:42:32   B had far fewer users and C had far fewer developers,

01:42:36   but also with the peculiar nature of the third party

01:42:41   to modernize peculiar to our current eyes of that,

01:42:44   it was dominated by just like three or four huge companies,

01:42:48   Adobe, Microsoft, you know, go so far as the macro media.

01:42:53   Macromedia, you know, just a hand, you know,

01:42:57   maybe more than four or five, but you know,

01:42:58   that you, just 10, 11, 12 big, big developers

01:43:02   who I think, and by all accounts that I've heard,

01:43:05   you know, did have, you know, like,

01:43:08   platinum card developer relations treatment from Apple,

01:43:11   and that they were, they're sort of built up

01:43:14   for that sort of world.

01:43:15   - Yeah, and that's a very, very good point.

01:43:19   I mean, and it seems like a lot of Apple,

01:43:21   Like, even if you look at the SVP roles,

01:43:24   why is the entire developer relations system

01:43:30   under the head of marketing?

01:43:32   Why is the entire cloud infrastructure system,

01:43:35   why is the same guy responsible

01:43:38   for the entire cloud infrastructure system

01:43:40   and also negotiating deals with record labels?

01:43:42   Like, I think they need to get wider as an organization.

01:43:47   They need like more divisions

01:43:50   and they need some of these divisions to have

01:43:52   more power at the top or more say.

01:43:55   I tweeted a while ago, if you wanna see

01:43:59   areas where Apple doesn't do so well,

01:44:02   look at which SVPs have way too much on their plate.

01:44:05   And again, I don't think it's personal.

01:44:09   I don't think Phil, Shiller, and AnyQ

01:44:11   are weak at their jobs.

01:44:13   I'm saying if that's the way the organization is structured,

01:44:16   where all these things are under

01:44:18   You know the like fairly disparate things are under one organization with one person representing them at the top

01:44:24   I think that's too much on their plate. Yeah, if anything it's that they're effective at their jobs. I mean, I mean it was it was

01:44:31   Explicit it was a rare instance where they publicly said

01:44:35   Like when they added maps to Eddie Q's plate, you know that usually they don't make announcements like that publicly

01:44:41   But right forced all thing was you know had to be done somewhat publicly and the explanation was Eddie

01:44:47   You know get stuff done. So maps need stuff done

01:44:50   So now it's Eddie's and at you know, truth be told maps has gotten significantly better

01:44:54   Yeah

01:44:55   People so people point to maps maps is a bad example in my opinion because maps is a product that I think is clearly headed

01:45:01   In the right direction, is it possible that it could be headed in that direction faster?

01:45:05   I guess of course you can always do somewhat better

01:45:07   And is it is it as good quality wise as Google Maps?

01:45:12   No, but that's I think that's mainly because Google still has the pedal to the metal on Google Maps and Google is improving

01:45:19   Google Maps at a very quick rate and so

01:45:22   Apple Maps might lag

01:45:24   behind it for years to come until they sort of get to the

01:45:28   You know the point of diminishing returns where they're both, you know, as close to perfect as they can get

01:45:33   I think Maps is a bad example because I think they're getting a lot better at that

01:45:36   Well, I disagree with with the with the chances of maps being you know

01:45:40   eventually tying up with Google Maps.

01:45:41   Because those kind of large big data problems,

01:45:45   Apple has never shown that they're very good at them.

01:45:47   They, where I think Apple gets a bum rap

01:45:51   is the general cloud services term.

01:45:54   - I think Maps today, Apple Maps today

01:45:56   is already better than Google Maps was a few years ago.

01:45:58   I'm not quite sure how many a few is.

01:46:00   - I don't know about that.

01:46:01   - But I get, I used to get bad driving directions

01:46:05   from Google Maps, you know, it was always better.

01:46:08   It was just like with search where I was I guess I used MapQuest before and right when I switched to Google Maps

01:46:14   It was like this is better and it wouldn't do stupid things like getting me from my house to you know, I 95

01:46:20   It's like, you know gave me reasonable directions

01:46:22   For the first few steps of a trip

01:46:25   In my experience, I mean again, this is the sort of thing where everybody depending on where you live might be having different results

01:46:31   But I think Apple Maps is already better than Google Maps used to be some number of years ago

01:46:36   It's not as good as Google Maps is today, but it's it's getting there

01:46:40   I like I don't think that it's I think it's already good enough that it's proof that they can do a large data set problem

01:46:45   to some degree of quality

01:46:47   Maybe I don't know then I look at App Store search and I cry

01:46:50   I but I think overall well, that's actually now that is a great example

01:46:54   Let's forget about math, but App Store search is a great example of something. That's always been shit is

01:47:01   is still shit and there's no evidence at all

01:47:04   that they're getting better at it

01:47:05   or that they've hired anybody.

01:47:07   To me the solution is so obvious.

01:47:10   Just find someone who's done a good work

01:47:12   at Bing or Google search and hire a team of,

01:47:17   poach a team of engineers with experience

01:47:19   at one of the successful search engines.

01:47:22   - I think the problem there is,

01:47:25   in general the app store, the store itself,

01:47:27   not the politics that go on behind it,

01:47:29   like the store itself, the interface to the store,

01:47:31   the infrastructure that runs the store,

01:47:34   the store apps themselves, the categories in the store,

01:47:38   the ability that the store pages have,

01:47:40   like the different fields, the descriptions,

01:47:42   like all this stuff, that stuff changes incredibly slowly.

01:47:47   A lot of it has never changed.

01:47:48   The App Store, it seems like--

01:47:52   - The install button for the Yosemite App Store

01:47:56   still looks like the old Mac OS.

01:47:58   Right, yeah, and boy, if you think the iOS App Store app

01:48:03   is a little rough on the edges,

01:48:04   the Mac App Store app is pretty rough.

01:48:07   That's been a frequent source of bugs.

01:48:09   It's just rough.

01:48:12   The iPhone one is the least bad.

01:48:15   The iPad one is kind of pretty bad.

01:48:18   And the Mac one is really bad.

01:48:20   But anyway, like all that stuff, it seems like,

01:48:23   I don't think this is an instance of like,

01:48:26   this team needs 50 more engineers,

01:48:29   I think it's an instance of,

01:48:31   Apple thinks this is good enough.

01:48:34   And that's what frustrates me about the App Store

01:48:37   and its various quality issues.

01:48:39   And again, I'm not talking about like, you know,

01:48:40   the policies in this case,

01:48:42   I'm actually talking about the store,

01:48:43   like the actual App Store itself.

01:48:46   There are so many things they could do

01:48:47   that would make it better,

01:48:48   that they seem to think they don't need to do.

01:48:51   But overall though,

01:48:53   I think Apple's cloud services get a bum rap.

01:48:56   I think if you look at what we do on our Apple devices

01:49:01   that rely on Apple's cloud services,

01:49:05   most of it just works fine.

01:49:07   And it's, again, it's that error rate multiplier thing.

01:49:10   Like the edges stick out and then we all scream and say,

01:49:13   "Apple's cloud services suck."

01:49:15   But the reality is like most of them,

01:49:16   like the biggest, as far as I know,

01:49:19   what I would expect at least,

01:49:20   the biggest Apple cloud service is the system

01:49:23   that delivers push notifications and iMessage.

01:49:26   And that works extremely well.

01:49:29   And if you think about the scale that that's operating on,

01:49:31   that's insane.

01:49:32   Like the amount of messages that get delivered,

01:49:35   and like all my interactions with that server

01:49:38   as a developer, like the servers that take in push requests

01:49:42   are just lightning fast.

01:49:44   Like it will take requests as quickly as your network

01:49:47   can stream them to it.

01:49:48   It never fails.

01:49:51   I've never had a connection error reported

01:49:53   by any of those tasks that run on my servers,

01:49:55   like at least one that wasn't my fault on my network.

01:49:59   It is ridiculous how well that system works.

01:50:03   From what I've heard, CloudKit works.

01:50:04   I mean, I haven't used it yet,

01:50:05   but from what I've heard, CloudKit works.

01:50:07   Like this new infrastructure that they built CloudKit on,

01:50:10   that they're building all the photo library stuff on,

01:50:13   all the indications so far, it is a little early,

01:50:15   but all the indications so far say that that's rock solid.

01:50:18   So it does seem like most of their cloud services

01:50:21   do work and are solid, but you definitely hear

01:50:25   about the ones that don't.

01:50:26   - Yeah, yeah, so I think the people who are holding

01:50:28   that stuff up as examples of this are,

01:50:31   I think they're wrong.

01:50:32   Let me take a break, and I wanna talk,

01:50:34   I guess the last thing we could talk about

01:50:35   would be the annual schedule.

01:50:36   And maybe we can talk about that crazy new MacBook

01:50:41   that Mark Gurman says is coming.

01:50:43   - That's gonna be weird.

01:50:45   You know we're both gonna buy one.

01:50:46   - No, I don't wanna, no, 'cause I just bought a MacBook Pro.

01:50:49   - You say that now.

01:50:50   No, I just I my MacBook Pro is what I want. I want you still have your 11 inch I do

01:50:56   I'm actually recording this but all I literally all I use it for is to record the show and

01:51:02   to

01:51:04   Take a look at anything. It's still running

01:51:06   10.9 so to take a look at anything in the old UI that I want to what was it like when you what do we?

01:51:13   Do before Yosemite right the only two things I use this machine for does it look totally garish and outdated now. Yes

01:51:19   - Absolutely.

01:51:20   - It's been such a short time.

01:51:22   - Yeah, looking at 10.9 is, oh my God, it's ridiculous.

01:51:26   It's not quite as ridiculous as looking at pre-iOS 7 iOS,

01:51:30   but it's, 'cause they never quite blinged,

01:51:33   or they de-blinged it at one point and left it there.

01:51:36   - It's even worse when, like,

01:51:37   so you now use a retina iMac full-time, right?

01:51:40   - Right.

01:51:41   - So how bad is it when you see a non-retina screen now?

01:51:45   - That's, well, my 11-inch has the non-retina screen,

01:51:48   and it's like, ugh.

01:51:50   - Yeah, I got a Mac Mini for some auxiliary duties here.

01:51:54   It runs headless, but we have an old 27-inch LED,

01:51:58   whatever, cinema display in the closet,

01:52:01   so I took that out to set it up.

01:52:02   And so I kept going back and forth

01:52:05   between my 27-inch Retina iMac

01:52:07   and the 27-inch Thunderbolt display,

01:52:08   which at the time it came out was an amazing display.

01:52:11   They still sell it.

01:52:12   It's now, well, now it's Thunderbolt.

01:52:13   I have the pre one anyway.

01:52:14   - Right, it's the same panel. - It's an amazing display.

01:52:16   Yeah, like incredibly good, like bright, nice colors,

01:52:20   great brightness, great contrast, like by all specs,

01:52:24   it is an amazing display.

01:52:25   And when it came out, I remember like I had some other

01:52:26   like HP monitor and I looked at the tool, I'm like,

01:52:29   oh my God, my HP monitor looks like crap compared

01:52:31   to this wonderful Apple monitor.

01:52:33   And now that I have, you know, the retina version

01:52:36   of that same thing, basically, going between the two,

01:52:39   as I was setting up the, like the first time I saw

01:52:42   the Thunderbolt one, the non-retina one, I'm like,

01:52:45   oh, is this the wrong resolution?

01:52:46   Like what is wrong with this?

01:52:48   It looks terrible.

01:52:49   Like what, oh my God, this was normal?

01:52:51   I looked at this all day?

01:52:52   Like it's, I know this sounds awful,

01:52:55   but it's such a difference.

01:52:58   But yeah, I would imagine, yeah,

01:52:59   like looking back at Mavericks,

01:53:02   once you're accustomed to Yosemite,

01:53:04   it probably looks quite ridiculous.

01:53:06   - Yeah.

01:53:07   The other thing that makes me think I might not like,

01:53:09   assuming that the German thing is true,

01:53:10   that, well, we'll talk about it in a second.

01:53:12   - Yeah, all right.

01:53:13   - But I don't think I would like the keyboard.

01:53:16   - I'm concerned, yeah, 'cause it's too close together, right?

01:53:18   - Yeah, and that's the thing I never liked

01:53:19   about my 11-inch Air, and not,

01:53:21   I don't even know if it's close enough,

01:53:22   but it doesn't have the key travel

01:53:24   that the bigger PowerBooks do, and it's one of the--

01:53:27   - Oh, it doesn't? - No.

01:53:28   Well, at least mine didn't.

01:53:29   I got the, my 11-inch Air is the last Air

01:53:33   that doesn't have keys that light up.

01:53:36   - Yeah, you have the 2010.

01:53:37   - Yeah. - It was the only one

01:53:38   that ever, it was only, like, the first one did,

01:53:40   the 2008 old crappy one, that did light up.

01:53:43   Then the 2010 ones initially didn't,

01:53:44   And then they brought it back in 2011 now the keys when you press them don't go as far down as on other power books

01:53:50   And it's the nicest probably the single nicest thing about the well the screens the nicest thing

01:53:55   But the second nicest thing after the retina screen is the keyboard. I just totally news to me

01:54:00   I thought that they all use the same part like all the all the current Apple app

01:54:03   I thought I thought the keyboard was the exact same in all of them

01:54:05   You know and for obvious reasons the main thing I use a power book for instead of art

01:54:10   I still call them power books the main thing I use a MacBook for instead of an iPad in any

01:54:14   Situation is typing so right right the nice keyboard really so I'm worried about that

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01:57:48   Shit, my disc is full

01:57:52   Hold on a second. I got it delete some podcasts here. That's fine

01:57:57   all right, I

01:58:00   Want to talk about the annual schedule, which I think is

01:58:03   For Yosemite and iOS which they've stuck to for a couple of years and as a source for this trend that we're seeing

01:58:10   And I think part of this too is sort of from within Apple is sort of a they can't win scenario

01:58:16   because

01:58:18   in the early years of the iPhone

01:58:20   2007 2008 the Mac

01:58:22   They admitted they even had like a press release the one time they had to publicly say we pulled engineers from Mac OS 10

01:58:30   To help get the new iOS 2.0 out the door. Right that was lesser, right? Yeah, so we're delaying the Mac OS till

01:58:37   October I think it was supposed to come out at WWDC in June and it's now it's not coming out till October

01:58:43   You know Steve Jobs even had his name on it, you know

01:58:46   You know that that you know that that hurt them to have to say something like that

01:58:50   Yeah, but like nothing bad happened as a result of that. No, but there I I'm not even saying something bad happened for it

01:58:58   I'm just saying though that I feel like within Apple,

01:59:01   they're like proud of the fact that they've gotten

01:59:04   to the point where they can do,

01:59:07   keep both OS's in states of constant development.

01:59:12   You know, that they're-- - Well, can they?

01:59:14   - Well, I don't think either Yosemite or iOS 8

01:59:18   is so bad that I wish I hadn't upgraded.

01:59:21   - No, they're not.

01:59:22   And that's, see that's the problem.

01:59:24   Like it's, maybe this is part of the problem.

01:59:27   Like they're not bad enough that like alarm bells are going off, right?

01:59:31   But the rate of tiny paper cuts seems to be increasing

01:59:36   Yeah, and I don't know like is it is it you know, if they're going to do that is this the in it?

01:59:41   Is this the way it has to be you know?

01:59:44   Is there no way to either they slow down one or the other operating systems or this is what we're gonna get

01:59:50   I don't know. Well, I don't think a slowing down would necessarily be that bad

01:59:55   I mean, you know and right now

01:59:57   We're going through a future a few big transitions in the OS's and we've been going through them over the last couple of releases

02:00:03   Where you know iOS 7 was the massive redesign in addition to a whole bunch of new frameworks under the hood

02:00:09   iOS 8 added the whole extension system, which is a pretty substantial thing

02:00:15   Well and the whole the whole idea of having these

02:00:17   cross inner inner application

02:00:20   Not just extensions in particular extensions are like one version of it

02:00:24   But the way that so much of how we interact with the system is going through these

02:00:28   You know, yeah the XPC thing yeah the XPC stuff

02:00:34   Yeah

02:00:34   And so instead of having things that run in your app

02:00:37   and if they go bad crash your app there outside your app in a sandbox and it's it's not just one thing like

02:00:43   Sharing extensions. It's a whole bunch of things. It's a big transition, right? And so like so they're going through transitions like that

02:00:50   you know they

02:00:52   So maybe the last few releases have just been bigger

02:00:55   than the releases will usually be.

02:00:58   Maybe this problem will settle down

02:01:01   in the next couple of releases just by nature of

02:01:04   they're now on the other side of these giant transitions.

02:01:08   But, and like, when you call something a stable release,

02:01:13   some part of it is just like a marketing value.

02:01:15   Some part of it is like, we're gonna declare this X.0

02:01:18   and that's just a number, it doesn't mean anything.

02:01:21   And so you could always choose to just put less in each one

02:01:25   and still kind of have the best of both worlds.

02:01:28   But some part of it also is like what Guy was saying,

02:01:30   like the way, like the whole development pace

02:01:33   of like how the year is spent,

02:01:36   how the time between releases is spent

02:01:38   between like, you know, launching, fixing the bugs,

02:01:41   then, you know, kind of quiet period

02:01:43   where you start developing the next stuff

02:01:44   and then, you know, beta for the next thing

02:01:46   and then launch the next thing.

02:01:48   That will still be a problem.

02:01:50   that will still be this compressed version,

02:01:53   even if you just do less in each version.

02:01:55   I still think it'll be better than what you have now

02:01:57   of doing a lot in each version

02:01:58   and releasing them every year.

02:02:00   I also, you know, it's important to point out

02:02:02   for the marketing value of this,

02:02:04   that this is a pretty young thing.

02:02:07   It isn't young for iPhones necessarily.

02:02:09   You know, most iPhones have coincided with new iOS releases

02:02:15   or at least been fairly close to them.

02:02:18   But they don't, first of all, they don't have to be.

02:02:20   - No, I think there's always been.

02:02:22   I don't think there's ever been an iPhone

02:02:23   that hasn't coincided with a new iOS.

02:02:26   It's just that I think-- - I think you're right.

02:02:27   I just couldn't think of,

02:02:28   I couldn't think of the earlier ones.

02:02:29   - No, there's never been,

02:02:31   and there'd never been one that can run the old OS.

02:02:34   And some of them, like in the iOS 3, iOS 4 era,

02:02:37   were not so heavily new features,

02:02:41   and was a little bit more just expanding the foundation.

02:02:46   but it was always a new .0 to coincide with the new phone.

02:02:50   - Right, but sometimes they haven't been that way.

02:02:53   Like iPads, like the famous or the first iPad

02:02:56   shipped with iOS 3.2.

02:02:58   It was a special build or special track for the iPad

02:03:01   that wasn't unified until iOS 4.2 I think or 4.1.

02:03:05   It was even iOS 4 shipped first on the iPhone

02:03:08   wasn't didn't even run on the iPad

02:03:10   and then 4.1 or 4.2 unified them.

02:03:12   So like they have released hard.

02:03:14   So much of the recent high profile hardware

02:03:17   has launched with new OS versions,

02:03:19   but not all of it has.

02:03:21   And when it hasn't, nothing bad happened.

02:03:24   Like there was no real downside to the iPad

02:03:28   shipping with 3.2 instead of waiting for 4.0

02:03:31   to be ready to ship this hardware product.

02:03:33   There was also no major downside to the iPad

02:03:37   not even getting 4.0 'cause it wasn't ready yet.

02:03:39   And like, you know, a few people complained,

02:03:42   but it wasn't a huge deal.

02:03:44   Didn't hurt the sales of the iPad really it didn't hurt the iPhone

02:03:47   It didn't hurt iOS for like it just didn't it wasn't a big deal, right?

02:03:51   Famously the iPad in particular had more explosive sales in those early years than it has now now they've stuck, you know

02:03:57   flat right exactly for other reasons but still right so and you know Macs are released all the time and if

02:04:04   If if a new version of Mac OS X is going to be due soon

02:04:09   They'll usually hold it same like they did with the retina iMac

02:04:13   They usually hold it for that for that same event, and then they'll ship together

02:04:16   But you know a Mac could be released next month

02:04:19   and it'll run the OS that's from four months ago or five months ago whatever and

02:04:24   Doesn't matter nothing nothing bad happens

02:04:26   You know no one says oh apple should have released a new OS with these new MacBook Airs like nope doesn't matter at all

02:04:30   Doesn't even come up so I question like

02:04:33   the value of having this this like lockstep of

02:04:38   of major OSs tied to major hardware releases,

02:04:41   I think is mostly self-imposed.

02:04:43   I think they do it that way

02:04:44   because they like to do it that way

02:04:46   or they think they should do it that way,

02:04:47   but when it hasn't gone that way,

02:04:50   I think the market has spoken loud and clear

02:04:52   that it doesn't really matter.

02:04:54   - Yeah, I kind of agree with that.

02:04:55   I do, you know, and I don't think that it's as superficial

02:04:58   as that they want to do it

02:05:00   so that they have more to show in a keynote.

02:05:03   But, you know, I think there's something loosely

02:05:06   along those lines though where they,

02:05:09   it's easier to market when there's more new features.

02:05:14   - Right, and that's what I mean when I say

02:05:17   that marketing is becoming too high of a priority.

02:05:21   It's not that, and one of the things that bothered me,

02:05:24   I never said the marketing department,

02:05:27   because what I didn't want to say is

02:05:30   Phil Schiller is personally controlling Apple

02:05:32   and killing Craig Federighi's goals,

02:05:34   'cause that's not what I meant.

02:05:36   I mean the idea of marketing, the marketing benefits

02:05:40   of this annual schedule and of lock-stepping them

02:05:43   with the hardware, that is too high of a priority.

02:05:46   That is taking priority seemingly over software quality

02:05:49   and that is what I have a problem with.

02:05:51   And that is not a departmental thing as far as I know.

02:05:55   You know, I don't think, you know,

02:05:57   Phil Schiller is personally taking over the company

02:05:59   and having these battles everywhere.

02:06:00   I seriously doubt that.

02:06:01   I think it's like the company has decided as a whole

02:06:05   at the high level, like this schedule is right

02:06:09   for the company, this is what we're going to do.

02:06:11   We're going to have these annual releases,

02:06:13   we're going to tie these things lockstep

02:06:16   so that hardware releases with software.

02:06:18   - Yeah, and I've always said,

02:06:19   I think your point is well put,

02:06:22   and I've always said that marketing at Apple

02:06:26   doesn't work like it does at a lot of other companies.

02:06:29   I don't know about most other companies, I don't know,

02:06:30   but I think the traditional way where marketing

02:06:34   is like icing on the cake and it's like products go through development and when they're done

02:06:38   being developed they hand them over to marketing and marketing figures out a box and a tagline

02:06:43   and finishes it. You know it's better, I've always said like one way to think of it is it would be

02:06:49   better to, you'd better understand Phil Schiller's responsibilities if you took the word marketing

02:06:54   out of his title and just thought of him as senior vice president of product.

02:06:59   Exactly. It's inextricably time time, you know it the the

02:07:03   advertising of the products the marketing of the products is inextricably tied to

02:07:09   the development of the products from the get-go

02:07:12   It's it's one in the same

02:07:15   Right, like they're not they're not gonna make a product that that there's no clear market for or that doesn't fit into their marketing message

02:07:21   As a whole right and there that makes their marketing

02:07:24   I think

02:07:27   Refreshingly honest that what they are bragging about about their products is usually true

02:07:32   I mean most of their marketing is like here is what our product is

02:07:36   Period like when they don't need to do that much more than that look like when the MacBook Air first came out

02:07:42   And you know they had to add where it came out of an envelope, and they were like look at this laptop

02:07:47   It's crazy thin and crazy light. Well. That's exactly what it was yeah, you know there was no no spin on it

02:07:53   No lie you know

02:07:56   Yeah, which we'll get to in a few minutes I bet.

02:07:58   - Maybe.

02:07:59   - But yeah, so I mean, I think the annual review cycle,

02:08:04   I think is a major part of the quality problems.

02:08:07   The quality decline did, I think, precede it.

02:08:11   'Cause the annual review cycle is pretty young.

02:08:12   I mean, where did they start that, with Lion?

02:08:14   Or when they went, I think when they went

02:08:17   from Lion to Mountain Lion, I think that was

02:08:19   the first one year interval, wasn't it?

02:08:21   - Yeah, it was a little bit more than a year.

02:08:23   It was, I'm looking at the Wikipedia page now.

02:08:28   Mac OS 10, 10.7 Lion shipped in October 2010.

02:08:33   And Mountain Lion was announced February 2012.

02:08:38   That was February 2012, that was the one

02:08:41   where they had like the private briefings.

02:08:43   Like where I'm--

02:08:44   - Right, is that the one where Schiller told you

02:08:46   we're gonna do things differently now?

02:08:47   - Yeah. - Yeah.

02:08:48   Yeah, I think that was when this started,

02:08:50   was roughly then, you know?

02:08:52   I think that's what they meant. They're doing things differently, you know in a few ways, but so you know that

02:08:56   You know and I should say yeah, I maybe I I overemphasized the cyclical nature of Apple

02:09:02   We've really only had two releases that follow the current cycle of a June

02:09:06   announcement and an October

02:09:08   Debut right iOS has been more consistent because because the phone schedule has been pretty much the same

02:09:13   I mean, you know, it shifted from June to September or whatever, but otherwise, it's pretty much the same

02:09:16   Yeah getting a summer to end of summer, right exactly. But yeah overall, you know iPhone has been consistent

02:09:22   It's only really Mac that has become inconsistent recently or that is now consistent

02:09:28   Yeah, and it used to be annual in the early years because it was so bad and needed so much improvement

02:09:34   Well, it was young. Yeah, like now it like I

02:09:37   Don't see that as a Mac user. I don't really see a lot of value in

02:09:42   Revving the the main OS I use for all of my work

02:09:47   Frequently like I don't see the point like the only reason I got Yosemite when I did was because I bought a new computer that

02:09:53   Came with it. I would have waited probably until like a point to most likely before I installed it

02:09:58   I never installed it on my old computer. I only I only got it because the new computer came with it and can't be downgraded

02:10:03   and

02:10:06   Because like I'm very risk-averse with my work computer, right?

02:10:09   Like I'm if I'm in the middle of a project which I almost always am I will put off any updates

02:10:15   Even even like an x.2 or x.3 like I'll put that off until I'm like done editing the podcast for the week

02:10:21   Just in case something bad happens. You know something like that. Yeah, my way has always been to have a computer at my desk

02:10:26   That's my quote main computer. Yeah, I'm a 5k

02:10:29   I'll keep that at a conservative pace and then have a laptop that I

02:10:33   Don't really give two craps about if it not that I don't care about it, but that I don't care if it gets buggy

02:10:39   Right. I'll get all installed developer betas on

02:10:42   Yeah, my laptop actually runs the like the it's it's on the USM ad beta chain like through the App Store

02:10:47   So yeah, so it's currently on on 10 10 2 or whatever it is. Yeah, and I regret it terribly

02:10:52   My actually that actually I mean I hardly use that computer, but that's actually not been a problem for me

02:10:56   Well, there's one particular bug that really it's driving me nuts the diction

02:11:00   And I don't even know how universal is but for me at least, you know

02:11:03   The dictionary lookup feature where you can do I've changed my shortcut. I think the standard one might be control command D

02:11:09   Oh, I always forget that I still launch the dictionary app from spotlight every time or launch bar

02:11:13   You know, this is a cool shortcut. You can triple tap on the trackpad over a word not click tap

02:11:19   Right, right triple tap and you get an inline dictionary lookup of whatever word you want use it all the time

02:11:25   That's a crime. It crashes Mars edit it. It doesn't crash BB edit button BB edit it leaves the yellow

02:11:33   Highlighted thing of the word on screen. Oh, that's it's something changed between 10 1 and 10 2 with third-party apps in the dictionary

02:11:40   Lookup and I do it all the time and I know I know it's gonna crash, but I don't think about it

02:11:45   I think I got a look at that. I spell this right triple tap to

02:11:48   Boom now all the apps I use are like Mars edit and BB edit. They all autosave everything

02:11:54   So I don't lose data, but it's still an annoyance

02:11:56   Yeah, and it's just this is the problem. There's so many little things like that. I mean, but it's a beta so I'm not complaining

02:12:02   Yeah, yeah, obviously here's the here's the historical schedule for Mac OS X so 10.0 came out in early

02:12:08   2001 and that really even counts. It was a heap and pile of shit and then 10.1 came out in July

02:12:14   Later the same year

02:12:18   When just from March to July they came out with a with a major version of Mac OS X

02:12:26   10.2 was May 2002 10.3 was June 2003. These are announcement dates not release dates. I guess I should do release dates

02:12:34   Then we waited like almost two years for 10 for tiger

02:12:39   Which is really where I feel like they tied it off and we're like, okay

02:12:42   We're done with like the early years of Mac OS X. Yeah

02:12:46   I came in with tiger even went all the way to tiger went all the way to ten point four point eleven

02:12:51   Which I think is the highest they ever got. Yeah, it's the highest they ever got

02:12:55   - 10.6 didn't get that high?

02:12:57   - No, 10.6 only went to 10.68.

02:12:59   - Oh.

02:13:00   - But there was, Wikipedia lists a 10.68 v1.1,

02:13:04   which is some kind of weird patch.

02:13:06   (laughing)

02:13:07   But that's where they switched to like two years.

02:13:10   And in fact, 10.5 didn't come out until October 26, 2007.

02:13:15   That's the one where--

02:13:16   - That was the delayed one.

02:13:17   - The delayed one.

02:13:18   So it was about two and a half years.

02:13:20   - And that was a really stable time, by the way.

02:13:23   This I think is the high watermark that you know, and again like as jalkett had a web web log post in response to your thing

02:13:30   You know don't

02:13:32   Don't don't use too much

02:13:34   You know

02:13:35   Yeah, rose-colored glass exactly don't have too strong a prescription in your rose-colored glasses, right?

02:13:40   Like all the people who would like to leave like web OS

02:13:43   But you know, I do think there's something to you know

02:13:47   The it being a high watermark this era a high watermark for stability system-wide

02:13:52   Yeah, I mean and everybody glorifies ten six also

02:13:56   Because that was the famous one that they said no new features

02:14:00   We're just gonna like, you know work on the work on the under the hood stuff, right?

02:14:03   And it was successful and it was that brought in tons of modern stuff that brought in Grand Central dispatch among other things and included

02:14:09   Though included in the fact that it had no new features is it was two years after?

02:14:13   Ten five leopard came out. So it was two years since the release it was this is you know, it was released in 2009

02:14:21   This is interesting. It was announced in June 2008, but didn't get released until August 2009.

02:14:29   I don't remember that. Do you remember it being a year in beta?

02:14:32   No, but it doesn't matter.

02:14:34   Well, I don't know. If it's on Wikipedia, it's got to be true.

02:14:36   Of course.

02:14:38   But it was two years and it had no new features, and it was two years until we got Lion.

02:14:44   So there was like this four-year period. And again, no new features is kind of bullshit.

02:14:48   adding Grand Central Dispatch.

02:14:50   It's not a feature because it's not like a thing

02:14:52   that they can put in a commercial,

02:14:54   but it's clearly a huge feature.

02:14:57   It's just a behind the scenes developer feature.

02:14:59   But that's like a four year period

02:15:02   where they didn't really have a lot of

02:15:04   user facing features added.

02:15:07   And is widely viewed, and I think accurately so,

02:15:09   is sort of the high watermark of stability.

02:15:12   - Yeah, and part of that could be rose colored glasses,

02:15:16   But I think there is a lot of truth to that.

02:15:19   - Yeah, we might see something like that soon though,

02:15:21   like you said, they're going through transitions now.

02:15:24   And iCloud is certainly one of them.

02:15:27   I think the other transition they're going through

02:15:29   is this general idea of iOS and Mac being siblings.

02:15:34   - Right.

02:15:36   - Like, you know, tied together.

02:15:39   The best example of that, best example,

02:15:40   has gotta be the iWork,

02:15:42   the new versions of all the iWork apps,

02:15:44   where now they're saying,

02:15:45   these are the exact same file formats between the two,

02:15:48   even if that means that the Mac version

02:15:50   is gonna lose a bunch of cool features.

02:15:53   And eventually, presumably, they're gonna get them,

02:15:56   get those features back,

02:15:57   but then we'll have them on both platforms.

02:15:59   We'll have nice kerning for fonts on iOS

02:16:03   in addition to Mac.

02:16:06   And that's a perfect example.

02:16:07   But they're doing that in little ways in a bunch of apps.

02:16:10   - Right, and a lot of the underlying frameworks

02:16:13   are also being unified.

02:16:14   a lot of the underlying API stuff, the SDKs,

02:16:17   a lot of that has been unified in the last couple releases.

02:16:19   They've both gone through the major visual redesigns,

02:16:23   more so on iOS, but still,

02:16:25   just somebody who knows Slouch in that department.

02:16:27   So they have gone through a lot in the last couple years.

02:16:31   - And I don't expect either of those things

02:16:33   to happen again anytime soon either.

02:16:34   I think we're at least five, six, seven years

02:16:36   from either OS getting a major visual refresh.

02:16:39   - Right.

02:16:40   - Just an annual tightening up.

02:16:42   Yeah, Swift gives me a little bit of pause

02:16:45   because right now, like Swift was announced,

02:16:49   nothing written inside of Apple was using Swift yet.

02:16:53   And none of the frameworks use Swift natively.

02:16:55   None of them are written in Swift natively,

02:16:56   at least not as of last year.

02:16:58   So introducing a whole new programming language

02:17:02   that certainly begs for a lot of things

02:17:05   to be rewritten in it,

02:17:06   that might be a major thing that is potentially a burden

02:17:11   or a distraction on the engineering teams.

02:17:13   I also question whether that is what they should be doing

02:17:15   with their time, but in general though,

02:17:19   I think the next couple releases have very good reason

02:17:23   to be less ambitious and more stable.

02:17:27   - Yeah, I hope so.

02:17:29   Before we move on and talk about that MacBook thing,

02:17:33   the other thought I had is that a lot of the complaints

02:17:37   that I've seen with regard to these little nagging,

02:17:41   It's supposed to just work, but it doesn't just work.

02:17:43   A lot of it has to do with wireless networking and stuff

02:17:49   that's supposed to happen between two devices.

02:17:50   Like for me, in particular, AirDrop is amazing.

02:17:53   AirDrop works absolutely great.

02:17:55   And I use it all the time.

02:17:57   Like where I'm on the phone, and I have-- ooh,

02:17:59   I want to link to this from Daring Fireball.

02:18:01   And instead of doing what I used to do,

02:18:02   I'd like send it to Pinboard or something,

02:18:04   and then go to my Mac and get it.

02:18:06   I just AirDrop it to my Mac as soon as my Mac wakes up.

02:18:08   And it-- boom, it's there.

02:18:10   and there's nothing to clean up.

02:18:13   I don't have to erase or let language forever

02:18:16   an old pinboard bookmark that I really just wanted

02:18:19   to shuffle between the two.

02:18:20   It's great, but I've heard from people who say

02:18:23   AirDrop never works for them.

02:18:25   But anyway, what gives me pause is that a lot of these things

02:18:29   are these little nagging two things that are supposed

02:18:32   to talk to each other over Bluetooth or Wi-Fi or whatever

02:18:34   don't really quite work the way they're supposed to,

02:18:38   is that is the entire description of Apple Watch, right?

02:18:42   - Yep. - It's like the sort of things

02:18:44   that don't just work are the only things

02:18:47   Apple Watch exists for.

02:18:49   There's nothing else, other than telling time,

02:18:51   there's nothing else the thing does

02:18:52   other than these little wireless interactions

02:18:57   sort of dancing all day long with other devices.

02:19:01   - I even thought earlier,

02:19:02   like you can't even sync Apple Watch with a cable.

02:19:07   - No.

02:19:08   - Like there's no ports on it.

02:19:09   It can only charge.

02:19:11   Everything else is wireless.

02:19:13   So like, you know, this stuff has to be,

02:19:15   one thing though, the Apple Watch,

02:19:18   it can go either way.

02:19:19   I think you can look at it from one side

02:19:21   and you can say, well, this is gonna be a brand new 1.0

02:19:25   of everything and it's gonna be potentially a huge drain

02:19:29   on engineering resources at Apple and focus from Apple

02:19:32   which could bode very poorly

02:19:34   for their quality going forward.

02:19:36   Or you can look at it as maybe the Apple Watch

02:19:39   will take some of the marketing burden for a while

02:19:42   and let them be a little more boring with iOS and OS X.

02:19:47   - And pour enormous resources into things

02:19:49   like getting the Bluetooth stack in really tip-top shape.

02:19:54   - Right, so I think this is a wild card.

02:19:58   I think the Watch, I don't, I mean,

02:20:02   again, I could be wrong.

02:20:04   I don't think the watch is gonna require

02:20:06   a massive amount of engineering, of software engineering.

02:20:09   It simply can't do that much yet.

02:20:10   The hardware is very simple.

02:20:12   Relative to all the things iOS does, for instance,

02:20:17   all the things Mac OS X does,

02:20:18   I don't think it's gonna require massive

02:20:21   engineering resources to get it through

02:20:23   its first couple of years.

02:20:25   Again, that could be totally wrong, I don't know.

02:20:28   But just as a relative thing,

02:20:30   I think it's probably a much smaller project.

02:20:33   but it will, and I also don't know how well it's going to sell. You know, it could end

02:20:37   up being, you know, just like new iPods, basically. Like it could just be like, it could disappoint

02:20:43   a lot of analysts, it could disappoint Apple, it could sell, you know, a few million here

02:20:48   or there, you know, but not set the world on fire and not be ubiquitous among Apple

02:20:52   people. Or it could set the world on fire and it could sell tremendously and it could,

02:20:56   like, we have no idea how it's going to sell yet and I think that might determine some

02:21:00   of its few some of the company's future priorities and direction I think the

02:21:03   single single I think it's if it works as advertised it's gonna sell very well

02:21:07   and I think the single thing that could sink it would be if it comes out in the

02:21:13   next month or two two months whenever it's supposed to come out and there's a

02:21:17   bunch of little nagging bugs with the interactivity with your iPhone and you

02:21:23   know your text messages are supposed to be showing up on your wrist and they

02:21:26   don't or it's not supposed to drain your battery but when you sink you know when

02:21:32   you have an eye you know you put your Apple watch on and your phone which used

02:21:36   to typically get you through the whole day is in the red by noon that's good

02:21:40   that would be a huge problem because I it it's not that they can't fix those

02:21:44   bugs it's that the perception will hit while it's young that the thing doesn't

02:21:49   work like it's supposed to and that sort of thing is very very hard to shake oh

02:21:52   Oh, yeah, I mean like it becomes part of people's tech superstitions to like oh you better like only turn on Bluetooth when you're doing

02:21:59   Something the watch and turn Bluetooth off on your phone to save your battery like yeah

02:22:02   It's that kind of stuff starts getting into like the the culture as common wisdom

02:22:06   You know, it could it could become the next quit all your apps thing where that's actively harmful

02:22:10   That's why I wrote when I linked to your thing that it's the perception

02:22:14   like to me the biggest problem with this trend and the resonation that your post got is that it's

02:22:21   By Apple leaving these things

02:22:23   You know like as you put it, you know leaving some ground at the functional

02:22:28   Leaving some of the area at the functional high ground, whatever you call it. Yeah. Yeah

02:22:33   Not my best title ever

02:22:35   Although I don't I disagree with your analysis that you have to lose the high ground to someone else

02:22:40   I think you can lose like because if you think about the moral high ground

02:22:43   You can lose the moral high ground without someone else becoming better than you at it

02:22:49   You can just become worse out of yourself. Yeah, I I know what you mean. It's not quite it

02:22:54   It's not quite fair that I said it's that you have to lose it to him. I do think it's an important point

02:23:00   I worry though that the fact that that I thought that way

02:23:03   It occurred to me later

02:23:06   Rethinking that that it could be a worrisome sign that if Apple people inside Apple see it the same way

02:23:11   Well, who did we lose it to that? You're blind to a problem

02:23:15   Right and what I did see though right away is that it's that to me is already a problem and is the fact that so

02:23:21   Many people seem to agree with you is a problem and it's the perception

02:23:26   Because and it doesn't matter whether we're overreacting or whether most people are if it if that becomes their perception

02:23:33   It's hard for Apple to shake that they can fix the bugs they can

02:23:37   significantly improve the quality of their

02:23:40   platforms across the board and people won't notice

02:23:43   because there's this perception

02:23:45   that the stuff doesn't work right.

02:23:47   - And there's a lot of reasons

02:23:49   why that perception is reasonable.

02:23:51   If you look at the various issues people have had

02:23:54   applying iOS updates over the last couple of years,

02:23:58   if you look at how iOS updates have performed

02:24:00   on old hardware over the last couple of years,

02:24:02   a lot of people are understandably wary.

02:24:05   They've gotten burned before.

02:24:07   And now they're like,

02:24:08   "Well, I don't want to install the new update

02:24:09   Because I heard it broke some people's phones or it broke my phone or it made my phone really slow

02:24:14   Well the one that they pushed it was bad because there's always gonna be bugs and there's always gonna be there's always gonna be weird

02:24:19   You know who knows like a freaking ion from outer space hits your phone the wrong way and corrupts some part of the OS

02:24:27   You know and if something in the flash memory gets corrupted

02:24:30   And a software update

02:24:32   Bricks your phone and doesn't break your wife's phone

02:24:36   Well, you know one in a one in ten thousand gets bricked by an update. Well those sort of bugs happen

02:24:41   They suck but they happen you can't say you can never do that

02:24:44   But you I think it's fair to say you can never push out an over-the-air update that bricks every phone that takes it

02:24:49   right like that just is that was just an inexcusable slip and

02:24:54   Creates again this perception that when you see it when your phone tells you hey, there's a new iOS

02:25:00   You should not be worried. You shouldn't think oh god

02:25:04   You know, I know some people who don't you know who just keep that red badge on you know, the Settings app

02:25:10   Because they don't want to install it. Oh, yeah, my mom's phone is still running iOS 6

02:25:14   Because when iOS 7 came out she saw on the news about the motion sickness and she got scared and she refused to install iOS 7

02:25:20   She's never even seen it. Alright, so she's just got a red badge on her

02:25:23   last two years

02:25:26   She'll get it once she gets a new phone. Yeah

02:25:28   It's so funny

02:25:33   Anyway, I think that perception is important and you know

02:25:36   I'll relate it to the Newton and I know it was a very different Apple in the 90s and they were so small and

02:25:43   You know something like the Newton

02:25:45   Appealed to so few people but it was mainstream enough. You know that it everybody cites the Dunesbury

02:25:51   Cartoon that made fun of it and the Simpsons made fun of it, too

02:25:56   So, I mean it was popular enough that it was grist for Simpsons gags

02:26:01   It got that stink on it that the handwriting recognition doesn't work so that you could make

02:26:06   Doonesbury and Simpsons gags about it. It didn't take that long though before the handwriting got pretty darn good on

02:26:13   You know like the the message pad 2000 it was pretty it was about as good as you could hope that like a

02:26:20   1995 1996

02:26:23   Computer could recognize your handwriting. It was really pretty good

02:26:27   Nobody really got everybody you'd say Newton they'd say goofy terrible handwriting recognition. Well, most of them also had never tried one

02:26:34   No, but if if Apple watch comes out and in the first year, it seems like none of the stuff

02:26:41   It's supposed to do works reliably

02:26:43   That would be hard to shake even if they fix it. Yeah, that's true

02:26:47   Like it's really important that it that it does everything it's supposed to do pretty well

02:26:54   And again, that sounds like a stupid thing to say it sounds like well everything you should do what it's supposed to do

02:26:59   pretty well, but like with a new product it's essential because the first impression is

02:27:04   So much it informs, you know a decade of what you're gonna think of it

02:27:10   Like the first iPhone it was so important that it really was an amazing device

02:27:15   it really couldn't be a bad device and there and there's a

02:27:19   substantial number of people both

02:27:22   just who can't wait for Apple to fail so they can talk about it and make fun of it and and point it out and

02:27:27   Laugh and also a lot of people who are going to be looking for a reason are gonna be looking for a reason for Apple

02:27:33   You know not just to fail somehow

02:27:35   They're like waiting for Apple to fail and it's also gonna be a lot of people out there who are looking

02:27:41   For reasons why they don't need to care about the Apple watch. They're looking for an excuse not to buy it

02:27:46   they're looking for a way to a reason to rule it out in their in their head as irrelevant fail move on and

02:27:52   And so any ammo that is provided to that

02:27:55   is going to get amplified like crazy.

02:27:58   And they have to be very careful

02:28:00   not to give much ammo to that.

02:28:01   There's gonna be some kind of gate

02:28:02   with everything Apple launches now.

02:28:04   Every stupid gate that comes out

02:28:06   every time there's a new iPhone.

02:28:08   There's gonna be some kind of watch gate

02:28:10   and they have to make sure that it's something

02:28:12   that's reasonably stupid like Bendgate

02:28:17   and not something serious.

02:28:18   - Right, well, imagine if it's a real thing.

02:28:21   If Ben Gate got as much publicity as it did,

02:28:24   and it was mostly nonsense,

02:28:26   and Antennagate got the enormous publicity it got,

02:28:29   and was in the long run mostly nonsense,

02:28:33   imagine a real problem.

02:28:37   You're supposed to be able to hold the button

02:28:40   and dictate your texts to your watch,

02:28:44   and if instead you just get a spinner

02:28:46   that spins and spins and spins,

02:28:47   and you never get your text, that's a problem.

02:28:50   - Right, exactly, and so like, these quality things

02:28:53   are extremely, you know, this is like,

02:28:55   like when I've been critical of their developer policies

02:28:57   recently, one of the things I've said is like,

02:29:00   this is strategically a very bad time to have problems

02:29:03   in this area, because the watch is coming out.

02:29:05   And when the watch is coming out, you need the quality

02:29:09   of everything that's powering it on the phone side,

02:29:12   you know, everything that's supplying it with the data,

02:29:14   the Bluetooth stuff, as you said, like,

02:29:16   you need the quality of that to be tip-top,

02:29:18   so that way the watch can at least focus on

02:29:20   It's like, you know, those teams can rely on that

02:29:22   and then the watch can have the solid foundation under it.

02:29:25   And you also need developers who are empowered

02:29:29   and willing and happy to be developing apps

02:29:32   for this platform and that are gonna push the boundaries

02:29:34   and make cool apps for it.

02:29:36   - So two things that Mark Gurman reported,

02:29:39   I think on the same day this week,

02:29:41   but he reported first about that,

02:29:43   this, you know, showing mock-ups of a 12-inch MacBook Air.

02:29:47   but he also said the date that Apple's planning

02:29:50   for a March release date of Apple Watch.

02:29:52   Did that, that surprised me a little, if it's true.

02:29:55   - That sounded late to me.

02:29:56   I, 'cause-- - Oh, really?

02:29:57   I thought that sounded early.

02:29:58   I really expected like April or May.

02:30:02   - Maybe, I don't know.

02:30:03   I think we heard rumblings a couple of weeks ago

02:30:05   that it would be like February,

02:30:07   but it doesn't really matter.

02:30:08   I mean, it'll come out when it's out.

02:30:10   I would rather have it come out when it's better

02:30:14   than come out when it's not quite ready yet.

02:30:15   So that's fine, it doesn't really matter.

02:30:18   - Yeah, I guess it's just the pessimist in me.

02:30:21   They say early 2015, I hear before June.

02:30:25   - Yeah, you hear May 31st.

02:30:27   - Right.

02:30:28   Whereas I guess the more honest way of looking at it

02:30:31   is early is first quarter, I don't know.

02:30:33   So maybe it will.

02:30:34   I'm a little surprised by that.

02:30:36   It also makes me wonder whether I should be on my feet

02:30:41   for an Apple event sooner rather than later.

02:30:44   I mean, I think an Apple event is fair game anytime.

02:30:49   I mean, I wouldn't expect it like next week,

02:30:52   but if there was an event in February

02:30:55   with availability a couple of weeks later,

02:30:57   that wouldn't surprise me.

02:30:59   - Yeah, me neither.

02:31:01   So, Germin's other story is this Blockbuster

02:31:03   12-inch MacBook Air.

02:31:04   - Yeah, with one port.

02:31:07   - With one port, which is so crazy

02:31:10   that I think it's probably true.

02:31:13   - Yeah, well, two with the headphone,

02:31:14   But that doesn't really count right and I at the it's I thought Snell's reaction was perfect where he was just like that

02:31:21   That's great. Well, yeah, okay. Yeah, it's like if you would have if we would I don't remember if the first MacBook Air had

02:31:29   Any rumors leads? I don't think it did. No, it was it was a total surprise

02:31:33   Yeah, as I recall I recall it being like a holy shit. I cannot believe that right exactly. I think you're right

02:31:38   So anyway, and I think the slogan I think it was a I think it was at WWDC

02:31:43   I just remember there's something that said there's something in the air. Yeah. Yeah, and

02:31:46   So like I like if we would have heard rumors about that

02:31:50   Beforehand and we would have heard crazy things like because that what that was also

02:31:55   Was that the first one that didn't have an optical drive? Yeah, I think it was yeah

02:31:58   Yeah, cuz they launched the external one with it. Yeah, so everybody among the many know how can they do this impossible?

02:32:04   It's like how can they ship a thing with how you're gonna install the OS right? So it's so, you know, they shipped this

02:32:09   3.0 pound right laptop at the time when everything else was 5.5 pounds

02:32:14   they shipped this 3.0 pound laptop that fit in a mailing envelope and

02:32:18   was super thin and had this like sharp edge in the front and had no optical drive and

02:32:24   Sometimes no hard drive one USB port like it was it was so it it was so much smaller

02:32:32   They had to make a separate power adapter for that

02:32:35   Even the power adapter was smaller.

02:32:36   Even the plug on the end of it was a different shape

02:32:39   to fit the beveled edge.

02:32:40   You had this door that the ports folded out from this door.

02:32:43   I mean, there was so much about it

02:32:45   that if you would have heard it ahead of time,

02:32:46   and even when it did come out,

02:32:48   everyone was like, that's crazy.

02:32:49   - It was January, 2008, it was Macworld Expo.

02:32:53   - There you go, all right.

02:32:54   - So it was the year after the iPhone introduction

02:32:58   at Macworld, it was another big introduction at Macworld.

02:33:01   - Yeah, I have to go back and rewatch that

02:33:03   and try to like gaze the reaction.

02:33:04   'Cause like, and I actually, I had one of those.

02:33:07   David at Tumblr got me one of those as a bonus,

02:33:09   'cause I had mentioned how I wanted to light a laptop.

02:33:11   And it was very nice of him.

02:33:12   And I had one of those and it was ungodly slow.

02:33:16   I mean, 'cause I had the hard drive model,

02:33:18   so it was like, it was this 1.8 inch iPod hard drive

02:33:22   in there, 'cause the SSD option was $1,000 more

02:33:26   and 64 gigs, or you can get the iPod hard drive,

02:33:30   which was 80 gigs, which is what I got.

02:33:32   - I remember Shipley got the SSD version

02:33:35   and it was like, I know it sounds crazy,

02:33:36   but it's a great development machine

02:33:38   because SSDs are so great for development

02:33:41   because you're dealing with hundreds of tiny little files.

02:33:44   - Yeah, and in 2008, when this thing came out,

02:33:46   SSDs were extremely rare.

02:33:49   It was one of the first computers

02:33:50   to even offer it as an option.

02:33:52   I don't think it was the first, but it was one of the first.

02:33:55   And so that machine, when it came out,

02:33:58   had all these crazy limitations

02:34:01   And a lot of flaws, I mean, like the CPU,

02:34:04   we talked a little bit on ATP,

02:34:05   like the CPU on a lot of them would overheat and throttle.

02:34:08   So you couldn't watch YouTube videos,

02:34:10   like you couldn't play flash video

02:34:13   for more than a few seconds before it started dropping frames

02:34:15   'cause the CPU was overheating and throttling.

02:34:17   I actually, on mine, I ran an underclocking utility

02:34:20   that would underclock and undervolt the chip

02:34:22   to keep it running cooler,

02:34:23   so that way it could sustain its peak usage

02:34:26   for enough time to play videos smoothly.

02:34:29   - Wow.

02:34:30   It was a crazy machine, it was way ahead of its time,

02:34:35   and in many ways that was a bad thing.

02:34:37   It made it, the performance was just dismal.

02:34:39   It was extremely inconvenient to move files to it

02:34:44   because it only had 802.11g,

02:34:48   or I think it was the draft N wireless.

02:34:50   So wireless was still a lot slower back then,

02:34:54   and it only had a single USB 2.0 port.

02:34:57   No FireWire, no Thunderbolt.

02:35:00   USB 2 and you could like, you could send files to it

02:35:03   over wireless which would take forever,

02:35:05   or you could get the wired ethernet adapter,

02:35:07   the USB one that was only 10/100 and ran over USB 2

02:35:11   and USB 2 was a horrible protocol.

02:35:13   And so like transferring files to it would just take hours.

02:35:17   It like, if you wanted to like put a bunch of like

02:35:18   movies on it when you go on a big trip or something,

02:35:20   it would just take hours.

02:35:22   It was unbearable to use in many contexts,

02:35:25   but what was so new about it,

02:35:28   being so incredibly thin and light, mostly light,

02:35:32   the thinness was kind of a nice bonus,

02:35:33   but it was mostly the weight being so radically

02:35:36   much smaller than everything else.

02:35:38   That was so good that this machine was quite compelling

02:35:42   for a lot of people.

02:35:44   It was not good enough to be your only computer

02:35:47   for most people.

02:35:48   And some people pulled it off, but for the most part,

02:35:50   it wasn't gonna be your only one.

02:35:51   - Right, because it only had 64 gigs of storage.

02:35:54   - Right, or 80 if you had the beautifully slow one.

02:35:57   - Right.

02:35:58   At a time when you had a lot less cloud storage.

02:36:02   - Yeah.

02:36:03   Yeah, like you had to keep a lot more,

02:36:05   you had to keep everything you had locally.

02:36:07   Like there was no such thing as like,

02:36:09   oh, I'm gonna keep everything I have on Dropbox,

02:36:11   and only sync this one little folder over,

02:36:12   or I'm gonna keep everything on,

02:36:14   I don't think iTunes Match was out yet.

02:36:16   - No, not even close.

02:36:17   - It was a much worse time to have very limited storage.

02:36:20   (laughs)

02:36:23   But people made it work,

02:36:25   and it wasn't overall a great machine,

02:36:28   but it was really compelling in a few key areas.

02:36:31   So now, bring it forward,

02:36:32   and in 2010, they made the better MacBook Airs,

02:36:35   and SSDs started getting bigger and cheaper,

02:36:38   and they went all SSD,

02:36:39   and the 2010 and forward MacBook Airs

02:36:41   are far better machines.

02:36:43   And now, like they pointed out on Connected this week--

02:36:49   - I don't even think there's any argument

02:36:51   that for most people who,

02:36:53   - It's the most popular Mac Apple sells,

02:36:55   and for most people it's their only Mac.

02:36:57   - Yeah, I mean, if someone comes to me and says,

02:37:00   what Mac should I buy?

02:37:01   And they don't give me any other information.

02:37:04   If I need to have a no questions asked answer to that,

02:37:08   the answer is a 13 inch MacBook Air.

02:37:10   - Yep.

02:37:11   - Like that's it, that's the answer.

02:37:12   That's the default. - I interrupted you.

02:37:13   You said something about the connected?

02:37:15   - Yeah, so they mentioned this on this week.

02:37:17   They were saying, pointing out how like,

02:37:19   you know, the MacBook Air used to be this high end.

02:37:23   It started out it was 1800 or 1600 dollars.

02:37:26   It was priced above the 13 inch MacBook.

02:37:31   - Yep.

02:37:32   - And it was a premium product to be slower

02:37:35   and smaller and everything.

02:37:37   But it was so much more portable.

02:37:39   - It was like getting a little convertible coupe.

02:37:41   - Exactly, perfect analogy.

02:37:44   And so yeah, it probably shouldn't be your family sedan.

02:37:47   But it is a fun little portable.

02:37:51   And so like the original MacBook Air was this premium thing

02:37:56   that's had above the rest of the line relative to its size.

02:38:00   - Yeah, imagine for like business travelers

02:38:01   who do a lot of typing on coach seats on an airplane.

02:38:05   It was, I hate to say it, it's such a cliche,

02:38:08   it was a game changer.

02:38:09   - Yeah, and for those that got the SSD,

02:38:12   I think it was like $3,400.

02:38:14   It was some crazy amount of money.

02:38:17   But you know, so it was this premium, awesome sports coop

02:38:21   kind of thing.

02:38:22   Since then, as I pointed out on Unconnected,

02:38:24   it has actually become the bottom of the line.

02:38:26   Like it is filtered down now,

02:38:29   like there is no regular MacBook anymore,

02:38:31   or there's that one model left over

02:38:33   that they bury on the site.

02:38:35   But for the most part, like the bottom of the Mac line

02:38:37   is the MacBook Air.

02:38:39   And so this, if you think about this crazy new

02:38:42   one port rumor that Germin had with the 12 inch

02:38:45   being this crazy new premium thing.

02:38:48   If you think about that not as a replacement

02:38:51   to the 11 inch MacBook Air that exists today,

02:38:54   but if you think about it in more of the style

02:38:56   that the original was relative to its siblings

02:38:58   in the lineup, this kind of mid-range,

02:39:02   or this mid-price thing, probably $1500 range type thing,

02:39:07   or maybe a little bit more, we'll see how it specs out.

02:39:10   But think about it as not the low end of the lineup,

02:39:13   but a mid-range of the lineup

02:39:15   that in some ways is more limited and worse

02:39:17   than the MacBook Airs that we know today,

02:39:20   possibly by having this one port,

02:39:22   or if it uses any of these new Intel Broadwell core

02:39:26   and processors, it'll be a lot slower.

02:39:27   It'll be roughly iPad speed,

02:39:29   which is not slow by absolute terms for the most part,

02:39:33   but relative to the other CPU,

02:39:35   it's not gonna be in the same class.

02:39:37   - It's always a moment when a next generation machine

02:39:43   it's slower than what came before.

02:39:45   - Exactly.

02:39:46   - And there might be good reasons for it,

02:39:47   but it still is not the way the industry works.

02:39:49   - Right, and the first MacBook Air was a big example of that

02:39:52   and it got trashed initially.

02:39:54   I remember when Macworld first reviewed it,

02:39:56   I think it was Jason who wrote it,

02:39:57   when they first reviewed it,

02:39:58   they were like, this is the slowest Mac

02:40:00   we've tested in a while.

02:40:02   It was the slowest one in the whole lineup at the time.

02:40:05   But anyway, if we think about it in that context

02:40:08   as maybe it's something like that,

02:40:11   I think that leaves room for it to suck in a few ways, that leaves room for it to be

02:40:15   limited in a few ways, for it to say, "This is gonna be a niche, premium thing that's

02:40:21   gonna extremely prioritize certain physical factors in exchange for, you know, extreme

02:40:28   something, extreme portability, maybe extreme battery life, probably not--I'm actually guessing

02:40:32   the battery life is gonna be mediocre on it--but, you know, it's gonna prioritize thinness and

02:40:38   lightness and size, it seems."

02:40:40   If these--

02:40:41   Exactly, above all else, including battery life, most likely.

02:40:43   It's gonna make your existing MacBook Air feel thick and heavy.

02:40:46   Exactly, the same way the original MacBook Air made even the 13-inch MacBook feel just

02:40:51   like a brick.

02:40:55   If they can pull that off, it's gonna be really interesting.

02:40:58   I do have a slight concern in this area that I do think, you know, you certainly have to

02:41:06   some degree you have diminishing returns here.

02:41:10   When the original MacBook Air came out it was like half the weight or close to it of

02:41:14   the 13 inch MacBook at the time.

02:41:19   How much lighter can it get while still having a keyboard, a screen, a battery of some kind,

02:41:26   an aluminum case around the whole thing?

02:41:28   I don't think they're going to be able to nail half the weight.

02:41:32   It probably can't go that low.

02:41:34   And we're already talking, these are already very thin and light computers as they are

02:41:37   today.

02:41:38   So to make it even thinner, even lighter for something that is not handheld, like it matters

02:41:43   more in an iPad or an iPhone because it's handheld.

02:41:46   For something that's on a desk or a lap most of the time or a tray table, the weight is,

02:41:51   you know, it matters to a point but like if the computer goes from, I mean, what the kernel

02:41:57   oven is what like 2.2, 2.5, something like that pounds?

02:42:00   >> Yeah, I'm bad at remembering what they are.

02:42:02   >> It's something like that.

02:42:03   >> Like I know what it feels like, I don't know what the number is.

02:42:06   - Right, but if it goes from 2.5 pounds to 1.8 pounds,

02:42:11   or if it goes from 2.2 to 1.5,

02:42:13   that's a big difference on paper,

02:42:15   it's a big percentage difference,

02:42:16   but your whole bag weighs like 15 pounds.

02:42:21   A backpack empty weighs more than that usually.

02:42:24   And so you might not even notice the weight difference.

02:42:27   So I do worry they might be prioritizing thinness

02:42:33   and extreme lightness a little bit too much in this case

02:42:38   if it'll come at the expense of battery life.

02:42:43   Because I think this is the kind of machine that,

02:42:45   the battery life on the current MacBook Airs is good.

02:42:49   It's not, it doesn't, it isn't to use a term

02:42:52   that used to be a verb and is now an adjective,

02:42:55   thanks to Apple, it isn't blow away.

02:42:58   But it's good, they're good.

02:43:01   Like, you know, when they came out, they were impressive, but you know, time has moved on.

02:43:04   That's now that's not a baseline.

02:43:05   Yeah, all all modern Mac books have amazing battery life compared to the old days where

02:43:10   it was stuck at like three to four hours.

02:43:13   Exactly.

02:43:14   Effective battery life, no matter what, no matter which one you bought, no matter what

02:43:17   you did, you know, turn the screen dimness down, right?

02:43:21   You know, three or four hours is about what you could get.

02:43:25   And it would lose about an hour per year of age to

02:43:27   Yeah, pretty quickly.

02:43:28   - Yeah, I just-- - And they don't do that

02:43:29   anymore. - As a coaster,

02:43:31   I just always knew you could never really go coast to coast,

02:43:34   even with a new machine. - Right, exactly.

02:43:36   - You know, you kind of, you know,

02:43:38   if you were gonna work on an airplane

02:43:39   while you flew to San Francisco from the East Coast,

02:43:42   get your work done, because you're not gonna, you know,

02:43:44   it's gonna die with an hour to go.

02:43:45   - Exactly, and like today, if you're using a laptop,

02:43:49   if you're doing like, you know,

02:43:50   medium lifting on it throughout the day,

02:43:53   it can almost, but generally not, run all day on battery.

02:43:58   Like they say like, you know, oh you have all day battery life. Well, it depends on what you're doing with it

02:44:03   Yeah, and if and if you leave your house with a solid charge you can watch movies on the whole flight. No problem

02:44:08   Right, but but you know, the question is like, you know, if you have a you know, a 40-minute layover somewhere

02:44:14   Do you have to plug it in or is it just kind of optional whether you plug it in?

02:44:19   Yeah, that kind of thing. Anyway, so I

02:44:21   Think they if they're using this this super low power, you know fanless broadwell chip that uses

02:44:28   I forget what the wattage is on it, but it's very low,

02:44:30   like 10 watts or something like that.

02:44:33   They could, if they put in a similar size battery

02:44:37   to the current MacBook Airs,

02:44:38   that could be a very substantial battery life.

02:44:41   But they might instead choose to just keep roughly,

02:44:46   what's the 11 inch today?

02:44:47   Like roughly like five hour life,

02:44:49   something like that in real use, something like that?

02:44:52   - I would say more than that, I think.

02:44:53   - Six, seven, whatever it is.

02:44:54   - Mine's old, so it's hard to say, but it's pretty good.

02:44:58   whatever it is, like the 11 is worse than the 13

02:45:00   by a pretty good margin,

02:45:01   'cause the 13 just has a much bigger battery,

02:45:03   but it wouldn't surprise me at all,

02:45:06   given what they've done with iOS devices,

02:45:08   with the iPhone 6 and with the iPad Air 2 and Air 1.

02:45:13   - I wonder how much, if, again, this is a huge if,

02:45:16   but if it's true that it really only has this one port,

02:45:19   I wonder how much that is about cost

02:45:23   and how much it is about using

02:45:24   whatever space is left for battery, you know,

02:45:27   that it's not so much that it would cost too much

02:45:30   to add a second USB port,

02:45:32   but that it's really, really, really intensive to save space.

02:45:37   - I would guess it's about two things,

02:45:39   neither of which are very good answers.

02:45:41   I would guess it's about symmetry,

02:45:43   having one port on each side, and about thinness.

02:45:47   That if Germin's scoop is correct,

02:45:49   then it still retains the wedge teardrop shape,

02:45:52   so it still is thicker at the back than it is at the front.

02:45:56   And if his thickness claims are accurate,

02:45:59   then there actually is not much room

02:46:01   for more than the ports that it has thickness-wise.

02:46:04   - Right.

02:46:05   - And also, I would not discount the value of symmetry.

02:46:09   I think symmetry is the reason why,

02:46:10   on the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus,

02:46:12   why the sleep/wake button is directly across

02:46:15   from the volume up button,

02:46:16   even though it makes it way harder to hit just one of them.

02:46:19   - Right, and it's the same size.

02:46:21   - Yeah, exactly.

02:46:22   So I would definitely not discount that

02:46:25   as a possible reason why it would only be one port.

02:46:27   Also, just electrically, if a computer has a USB port

02:46:32   and a FireWire port, those specs each demand

02:46:36   the port be able to supply at least X amps of current

02:46:38   through it at most to supply a device with power.

02:46:42   So the more ports it has on it,

02:46:44   the higher the total power output for that computer

02:46:47   has to be able to have capacity for.

02:46:50   - Somebody on Twitter pointed out,

02:46:51   and I'm so sorry I forgot your name,

02:46:53   but that if it had even just two USB ports

02:46:57   and they were both USB-C and it might have to be USB-C

02:47:00   'cause I think the device is too thin

02:47:02   to have a traditional USB port.

02:47:04   - Yeah, I think you're right.

02:47:05   - I think the minimal size of a USB three port

02:47:08   is thick enough that it would be a gating factor

02:47:12   to make the overall devices thin.

02:47:13   So it has to be the new USB, but if it had two

02:47:16   and you can, and they're going to use it

02:47:19   for supplying power to the machine,

02:47:22   you couldn't risk having two power adapters

02:47:24   plugged in at the same time.

02:47:25   That, I don't know if that's true or not,

02:47:28   that it would, you know, like break the machine or something.

02:47:31   And conversely, how do you tell people

02:47:34   you can use this one for power,

02:47:36   and this one, which is the same port,

02:47:39   it's exactly the same size,

02:47:41   it can take every other thing you can plug in the other one,

02:47:44   but that one won't take a charger.

02:47:45   - Right, in the PC world,

02:47:46   they would just color one of them like blue or something,

02:47:48   and say, well, just plug in the blue one.

02:47:50   but Apple won't do anything like that.

02:47:52   - Right, and it would just lead to confusion

02:47:54   because maybe you're running on battery power

02:47:56   and you've got a mouse plugged in one

02:47:57   and a hard drive in the other, but now you need power,

02:47:59   so you think, well, I'll unplug the mouse.

02:48:01   Oh, but I plugged the mouse in the other one

02:48:04   and the hard drive, which I can't unmount

02:48:05   because I'm still copying files to it, is in the power one.

02:48:08   It just doesn't, you know.

02:48:10   - Yeah, that's the kind of inelegant solution

02:48:11   Apple is very unlikely to do.

02:48:13   - It actually makes some sense

02:48:14   that if you're going to use USB for power

02:48:17   and you can only have power plugged into one port,

02:48:19   therefore you can only have one port.

02:48:21   - Exactly.

02:48:22   So yeah, I would expect,

02:48:24   I'm guessing, like the more I think about it,

02:48:29   the one port thing actually sounds plausible,

02:48:31   and the more I learn about USB 3C.

02:48:34   These new C ports are extremely versatile,

02:48:37   and I don't know the extreme details yet,

02:48:39   but they designed the specs so that the port can carry power

02:48:44   seemingly in either direction.

02:48:48   you could have a computer that powers the monitor

02:48:50   and drives a display.

02:48:52   So you can also route display signals over it

02:48:54   and you can route high bandwidth buses over it

02:48:56   and everything.

02:48:57   It's crazy how much this thing can do.

02:48:59   We'll see how it works out in practice.

02:49:00   But it's designed such that you could have

02:49:05   just this one cable running from a monitor into a PC

02:49:09   and have the PC both power the monitor

02:49:10   and show the display signal over this one little cable.

02:49:13   - Yeah.

02:49:14   - Which is crazy.

02:49:15   - You know, and in terms of skating

02:49:17   to where the puck is going,

02:49:18   which is what the MacBook Air was at its beginning.

02:49:21   So the original MacBook said no optical drives.

02:49:24   And now this one says no more SD cards port

02:49:28   and no USB port, extra USB port

02:49:31   where you could plug one in.

02:49:33   Well, guess what?

02:49:34   I think SD cards are going away the dodo

02:49:36   and that your photos are gonna travel

02:49:39   over the air between devices.

02:49:42   And of course we're not there yet.

02:49:43   And if you're the more serious a photographer you are,

02:49:46   you know, the less doable that is.

02:49:48   But more and more regular people

02:49:50   are shooting all of their photos

02:49:52   with their phones and iPads,

02:49:54   and they're, you know, in the Apple universe

02:49:56   will therefore be using iCloud PhotoSync,

02:49:59   and that's how your photos will get to your Mac.

02:50:01   And a lot of consumer cameras have WiFi now,

02:50:04   and you can transfer photos that way.

02:50:07   - Right, so I think,

02:50:09   I think you're right, this computer,

02:50:14   Again, if this was real, it seems increasingly plausible.

02:50:19   If this was real, I think this is a forward-looking computer,

02:50:22   aggressively so, just like the first AR, as you said.

02:50:26   They couldn't go, you know, basically portless.

02:50:29   They couldn't go portless on the whole lineup yet.

02:50:32   But they can have one weird outlier

02:50:35   that is really good in some other way,

02:50:37   most likely thinness and weight.

02:50:39   They couldn't have this one crazy outlier

02:50:41   that is awesome at this one aspect of itself

02:50:45   and gives up a lot to get there.

02:50:46   - I think it's true too.

02:50:49   And let's, you know, Germin's report, and I believe it,

02:50:53   I mean, it could be details are off,

02:50:56   but I mostly believe it, but he seems very sure about it.

02:50:59   And I think he attributed the source

02:51:00   to someone with an Apple who's used one,

02:51:02   or at least, you know, like used the current prototype.

02:51:05   And then the source told him everything about it.

02:51:07   And then he gave that to an artist who made those renderings.

02:51:10   So, you know, there's some pass it down the alleyway,

02:51:15   you know, stuff that was probably not quite right

02:51:19   in terms of, you know, the degree of tapering

02:51:21   or some stuff like that.

02:51:22   But it wasn't Germin who said anything

02:51:25   about what chip is in it, you know,

02:51:27   whether it's this new M chip or anything like that.

02:51:29   Germin's report was just what the thing looks like.

02:51:32   - Right, and we don't like, Intel did just release

02:51:35   a Broadwell series chip that is fanless

02:51:37   or that can run fanless, that it just uses,

02:51:39   it uses so little power that it can run fanless.

02:51:41   - Did German say that it's fanless?

02:51:43   - No, I think everyone's guessing

02:51:45   that it is probably fanless.

02:51:47   I don't think he actually said it is.

02:51:49   And the way CPU cooling works,

02:51:52   all the current MacBooks have fans.

02:51:56   Most of the time, most people won't hear them,

02:51:58   especially the newer ones are even better.

02:52:00   They're even quieter, the Retina series.

02:52:03   But you can have something that's totally fanless

02:52:08   like an iPad and have it basically just use the chassis

02:52:11   as a giant heat sink and just basically radiate heat,

02:52:16   through contact, like radiate heat into the exterior shell

02:52:20   or some interior thing that touches the shell eventually.

02:52:22   If you have a little heat sink

02:52:26   and you have any air moving it at all,

02:52:29   even if you have the slowest, quietest fan

02:52:32   that most people don't even realize is there,

02:52:34   like the original Apple TV had a fan,

02:52:36   I don't know if you even know that,

02:52:37   even if you have the tiniest little fan in there,

02:52:41   blowing the slowest speed it can possibly go,

02:52:44   barely moving any air over it,

02:52:46   that cools way better than any kind of passive cooling.

02:52:50   Like the slightest bit of air movement

02:52:52   is substantially better,

02:52:54   and you can dissipate a lot more heat that way.

02:52:56   So--

02:52:57   - It reminds me of the world's tiniest violin

02:52:59   playing the world's smallest fan.

02:53:01   (laughing)

02:53:01   The world's tiniest fan,

02:53:02   blowing the world's smallest amount of air.

02:53:05   - Yeah, like it makes a huge difference,

02:53:07   and that gives you a much higher thermal budget.

02:53:09   And modern processors are pretty much all limited

02:53:13   by their thermal budgets.

02:53:14   Like their performance is gated by that factor.

02:53:16   So they don't have to use a fanless chip in this

02:53:20   if they don't want to.

02:53:21   They still could if they wanted to.

02:53:24   I think they can fit a fan in there.

02:53:26   I think they like--

02:53:27   - Well if the Surface has a fan,

02:53:30   the Surface Pro does at least.

02:53:31   - Yeah, it's really thin, right?

02:53:33   - It's well, it's certainly thinner than,

02:53:36   I think it's just I'm not quite as sure if it's as thin as this MacBook is because the surface thinness doesn't have it

02:53:43   Doesn't have a hinge right although. I think it has ports somewhere, so it probably isn't this thing

02:53:47   but it's probably in the ballpark and and

02:53:49   so yeah like I think they could put a fan in there if they want to they could be using a

02:53:54   CPU that that has that is like

02:53:56   The same in class as the existing MacBook Air CPUs of like that that class of performance

02:54:01   So German's report does say above the keyboard are for redesigned speaker grills that actually double as

02:54:07   Ventilation holes for the fanless device to keep cool. So german says it's fanless, but we shall see I

02:54:15   Think you're right I'm with you and I think that these verge guys are

02:54:22   just misreading the whole thing when they they're they're saying that it's like a

02:54:28   Low end device that will compete with Chromebooks not a chance

02:54:32   I think it's gonna be more expensive and I think therefore just like when they introduced the retina macbook pros and they kept non

02:54:40   retina ones around to anchor the low end of the

02:54:43   Pricing tier. I mean you could still buy non retina MacBook pros, you know, I think they started

02:54:49   I think they're only like 10 a thousand bucks. I think you can get like a 13

02:54:53   Yeah, I think there's one that's why I was like there's like one buried in the store

02:54:56   that's like 1,100 bucks.

02:54:58   They mentioned that on connected also.

02:54:59   - Yeah, so I think this will be more expensive

02:55:01   than the current starting price

02:55:02   for even the 13-inch MacBook Pro.

02:55:05   And I don't think it'll be much more.

02:55:06   I think it'll probably start at like,

02:55:09   I don't know, 1,300 bucks, 1,400 bucks, maybe.

02:55:11   And that they'll keep,

02:55:15   I don't know if they'll keep both the 11 and 13,

02:55:17   but they'll keep at least the 13 around at 899

02:55:22   or maybe even drop it to 799.

02:55:24   - Yeah, maybe, I don't know.

02:55:26   for the foreseeable future.

02:55:28   I do think it would be kind of weird

02:55:29   if they had 11, 12, and 13 on sale at the same time.

02:55:33   Just seems like two, that seems a little unappley.

02:55:36   Seems like to me like maybe the 11,

02:55:38   you know, what's the point of the 11?

02:55:40   Is it to be 11 inches or is it to be the,

02:55:42   even, you know, the super smallest and lightest?

02:55:46   Well, I think that this 12 inch,

02:55:47   which seems to have a footprint mostly like the 11,

02:55:50   and width-wise is apparently the same width as the 11,

02:55:54   and has a bigger screen 'cause it has a smaller bezel,

02:55:56   I'd say there's no reason for the 11 to exist.

02:55:59   - Yeah, the 11 has such a wide bezel

02:56:01   that it really has, it does not make good use

02:56:04   of its size for the screen.

02:56:05   The keyboard makes good use of the size, the body,

02:56:07   but the screen, you look at that and you're like,

02:56:09   "Man, I wish that bezel was thinner

02:56:10   and the screen was bigger."

02:56:11   - I'm looking at it right now and it just looks ridiculous.

02:56:14   It looks outdated, no, it looks outdated.

02:56:15   It looks like the laptops from when I was in college

02:56:19   and they were just like tiny little thing

02:56:22   in the middle of a huge bezel that they didn't even come close to taking up the full size

02:56:28   of the display panel.

02:56:30   Yeah, exactly.

02:56:31   Yeah, I'm guessing this thing is real.

02:56:35   I'm guessing it comes out in the next couple of months, like soon, not June.

02:56:39   I'm guessing this comes out like this winter.

02:56:43   Possibly announced at the same event as the Apple Watch release date.

02:56:46   I don't know.

02:56:47   And possibly the iPad Maxi.

02:56:49   I don't know. See, I'm still not entirely convinced that's a real thing or that it's

02:56:53   imminent rather. I don't know. We'll see what happens.

02:56:56   A lot of people are -- I've seen a lot of people and I think it's just -- you're not

02:57:00   thinking this through. People thinking that, "Well, remember the old jobs trick where there

02:57:04   was the internet communicator, a phone and a wide screen video iPad, you know, dun, dun,

02:57:09   dun." Not three products. It's one product.

02:57:11   Right.

02:57:11   Well, there's a 12-inch MacBook and a 12-inch iPad and a MacBook and a Mac. Guess what? It's

02:57:17   device and it's an iPad and it has a keyboard and it's like no no I

02:57:21   definitely don't like and I even said like I even tweeted the other day like

02:57:25   I've long suspected that that the rumors are for one device but I meant that in

02:57:31   the sense that like people are misinterpreting the room yeah yeah yeah

02:57:34   in the sense that this is a combined iPad and MacBook like that right that

02:57:37   apples out in Asia sourcing these 12-inch right right they all the

02:57:42   display things oh that must be for a bigger iPad but no maybe it's also just

02:57:46   for a smaller MacBook.

02:57:47   But a few people have told me that they have solid

02:57:51   information from rumor sources, blah, blah, blah,

02:57:53   that this really is two different devices

02:57:55   that are really separate, so fine.

02:57:56   It doesn't really matter.

02:57:57   But I, yeah, I don't know, I can't possibly be less excited

02:58:02   about a 12-inch iPad.

02:58:03   - No.

02:58:04   Even though that's what Syracuse wants.

02:58:06   - It is what Syracuse wants, but he also wants

02:58:08   like Pro OS features to be added to make it better

02:58:12   to be for multitasking and pro work.

02:58:13   and I just, I don't see a good way

02:58:16   for that to be built onto iOS.

02:58:18   It's not to say they're not gonna try.

02:58:19   They might try, I don't know.

02:58:21   But I think the MacBook Air and this new, quote,

02:58:26   MacBook Stealth, whatever this new 12 inch thing

02:58:29   is gonna be called, I think that is Apple's answer

02:58:32   to pro-ultramobile computing.

02:58:35   Like, it's the Mac, but smaller.

02:58:36   - Yeah.

02:58:37   - It's not trying to bolt on a bunch of pro-multitasking

02:58:41   power user features onto the iPad.

02:58:43   - I think, what do you,

02:58:46   Germin doesn't say, the most curious thing to me

02:58:48   is he doesn't mention retina display.

02:58:50   Doesn't say it has one, doesn't say it doesn't have one,

02:58:52   doesn't say, which to me is crazy.

02:58:54   I think it has to have a retina display

02:58:56   because I don't think you can introduce new products anymore

02:58:59   or at least Apple can't that aren't.

02:59:01   Like there's never gonna be a non-retina watch.

02:59:03   The watch starts retina.

02:59:05   - Right.

02:59:06   - Everything new is retina.

02:59:08   - Yeah, I think it would have to be, right?

02:59:10   And then I think the name is obvious. You just call it the MacBook Air with retina display

02:59:14   And it does you don't even have to say that it's 12

02:59:17   Yeah, that makes sense MacBook Air with retina display and now it's it they can use the air name

02:59:22   which I think has great brand equity and

02:59:25   Also make it very clear that it's the new thing because it's the retina display just like the MacBook Pro with retina display. I

02:59:32   think the

02:59:34   The the rumor I don't know if it was in German reporter someone else's but the rumor that it might come in space gray

02:59:39   It's kind of exciting. Yeah and gold that's less exciting but the space

02:59:43   Well, right because I would definitely buy the the space gray one if it comes in space cray

02:59:49   that would be the first thing that puts a

02:59:51   Tinge of desire in my heart. Yeah, because I mean I'd say like like the the Mac Pro then the new cylinder Mac Pro

02:59:57   That looks awesome in person like have it because that that is basically a space great color

03:00:02   It's I don't think it's exactly the same color as the phones but it's very close and it has a glossy finish

03:00:06   so it's, but it's in the ballpark. It looks so awesome in person. Like you just feel like

03:00:11   a badass having that on your desk. It just looks fantastic. And I definitely think the,

03:00:16   you know, bead blasted aluminum look that we've had in Apple products for my entire

03:00:22   time using Apple products, I think that is in many ways a timeless look that will never

03:00:28   go fully out of style. However, it'd be nice to see something a little bit new, a little

03:00:32   bit fresh in that area if it's possible and if it doesn't suck. So if they can

03:00:36   make a space gray version of it I think it would be it would be a nice change of

03:00:39   pace. Yeah and wouldn't the the white version be lighter? Like I don't have a

03:00:45   white iPhone handy here but I'm I'm thinking that like an upside down white

03:00:52   iPhone is a lighter shade of aluminum than a MacBook. I don't think that's true.

03:00:57   Maybe it's the same. Yeah I think it's the same but it would look different if

03:00:59   they use white for the bezel though yeah that's like yeah that is true assuming

03:01:04   it has like that because like you know the current MacBook Airs have the metal

03:01:07   bezel the way the old I refuse to if it adopts the like you know glass goes edge

03:01:12   to edge and the bezel is like this black surround or yeah then it could be white

03:01:16   you're right yeah but space gray would be cool the most inexplicable thing that

03:01:19   Gurman's renderings have and I just don't get this is why they have the

03:01:24   power key where the escape key has been since forever I hope that's wrong I

03:01:29   I saw that too and I'm like, ooh, that's gonna be annoying.

03:01:33   - I can't help but think that that's just a mistake

03:01:35   because they're commissioning.

03:01:36   But then again, wouldn't it be easier

03:01:39   to just use a keyboard layout that you've already had?

03:01:44   Seems like it would be more work in Photoshop

03:01:46   or whatever you use to build this to move that.

03:01:48   - Well, and the existing 11 inch fits it just fine.

03:01:51   It puts it above backspace, right?

03:01:54   - Well, by definition, it could go on either side.

03:01:58   Right, you just slide over all the other keys

03:02:00   and put it in the top right where it's been forever.

03:02:02   And it's not so much that I wanna hit that power key,

03:02:04   but that I do use the escape key,

03:02:06   and I don't wanna put my MacBook to sleep

03:02:08   when I just reach up there blindly

03:02:10   and hit the top right key.

03:02:11   - You know what though, I just realized,

03:02:13   I think we are numbered here.

03:02:15   I think most people hit backspace

03:02:17   a heck of a lot more often than they hit escape.

03:02:19   - Oh, and then maybe that's why they move it.

03:02:20   - That's plausible.

03:02:21   Oh, man.

03:02:23   - Oh, so the explanation, maybe,

03:02:24   and then they'll move it on all the keyboards.

03:02:26   - Yeah.

03:02:27   - Because already you can't just tap it.

03:02:29   You have to hold it down for a second.

03:02:31   - Yeah, I've never thought of that.

03:02:33   - But yeah, now that you're looking at a keyboard,

03:02:35   you're looking at where it is in the 11 inch now,

03:02:36   it's above backspace, or delete rather, sorry.

03:02:38   I have a Microsoft keyboard.

03:02:39   - That's the first logical explanation

03:02:41   I've heard about that, I've thought about that.

03:02:43   - I guess I thought about that now,

03:02:43   but that's unfortunate,

03:02:44   'cause that sounds extremely plausible and reasonable,

03:02:48   even though it would suck for people like us.

03:02:50   - Somebody on Twitter said that they're a Vim user,

03:02:53   and they can't believe Apple would do that.

03:02:57   escapee is too important to vim users and it's like yep I'm a vim user when I'm

03:03:01   on server stuff and it also it's also autocomplete and textmate like yeah man

03:03:06   well it's autocomplete system-wide isn't it it always I don't know f5 is - I've

03:03:11   only ever tried it in textmate but yeah but I I think now that I think about the

03:03:15   power button being above backspace instead I think that's very plausible

03:03:18   yeah whoo I never thought of that oh we're screwed well let's keep the show

03:03:24   short let's wrap it up you're always very good at keeping the show I am I am

03:03:28   very good at the in the last 30 seconds of keeping the show short Marco Arment

03:03:33   thank you thank you for the time and a lot of good conversation tonight people

03:03:39   can find out more at your suddenly very popular website Marco org that's right

03:03:45   your Twitter is at Marco Arment my goal to lose as many people as possible for

03:03:52   audience by blogging about really boring developer stuff for a while.

03:03:55   And of course we've got to mention ATP. Anybody, I can't, there's got to be so much overlap,

03:04:00   but if you're out there and you like it when Mark goes on the talk show, you've got to

03:04:03   listen to ATP. It's my favorite podcast, and I say that completely honestly.

03:04:11   Thank you.

03:04:12   So ATP is at ATP.fm. Six characters, including the dot.

03:04:18   So that's yeah FM is pretty wide open to the cost like 70 bucks a year to register

03:04:22   So it's pretty easy to still get pretty good stuff there. Yeah, and it works, you know works with the podcast angle. Yeah, exactly

03:04:28   So check those three things out and

03:04:32   Wait for Marco to burn the internet down next week

03:04:36   All right, thank you thank you thank you it was so great

03:04:42   I love it now that I just given up on keeping shows a reasonable length. Oh, yeah screw it