The Talk Show

104: ‘2014 Year in Review’ With Guest Rene Ritchie


00:00:00   So where to start I say we let's just talk about it Renee Richie. Let's talk year in review. Yes

00:00:04   Where better to start than January?

00:00:07   It was a quiet beginning of the year

00:00:10   It was so quiet that people were again pounding the doom drums that Apple wasn't doing anything anymore

00:00:14   Yeah, and maybe even before we get into details like January

00:00:18   Maybe just take that and and use it like to me like the year in review as a whole like with zoom out big level

00:00:26   What are we gonna look back on this year? I?

00:00:28   Would say that this was the year where?

00:00:31   that

00:00:33   That sense that that Apple can't do it anymore since got rubbed away slowly, but surely over the course of the year I

00:00:40   agree, I think it built up to I think it reached a crescendo because you know people kept making a big deal of Tim Cook saying

00:00:46   We'd be releasing new product character categories throughout the year and then as the months ticked on they seem to get more and more

00:00:52   personally angry with him

00:00:55   Yeah, I think so too and I think because it the the naysayers

00:00:59   Have been the down on cook overall. Anyway, like that's the root of their naysaying

00:01:06   Yeah, we go over the short term at least they wanted him fired. They said he was destroying Apple

00:01:12   They kept comparing him to Steve Jobs in a very negative way and looking back at a nine-site. It's absolutely ridiculous

00:01:18   Yeah, I was just thinking that

00:01:21   Before we started recording. I was thinking that I don't think anybody called for that in 2014

00:01:26   But at least in 2013 you can find several instances of

00:01:29   ostensibly serious

00:01:31   Business writers calling either for Tim Cook to be outright fired or at least calling for Apple's board to like

00:01:39   Rain him in and and have him rejigger the company

00:01:42   We did have haunted Empire. I think earlier this year which sort of showed that Apple was completely doomed without Steve Jobs

00:01:48   Yeah, I think it's I think that's sort of the publication of haunted Empire

00:01:53   Her first name her last name is Kane or yeah, you could you could Tori. Yeah, you could Tori Kane

00:02:01   not sure I

00:02:03   Would say that the publication of her book haunted Empire was sort of the I was gonna say high watermark

00:02:08   But I would say maybe the low low watermark of Apple nay saying yeah

00:02:13   When did that come in that was probably February?

00:02:17   Yeah, it must it was when I was with Jason snow, which means it had to be around Macworld time or something

00:02:22   Yeah, which was I think February. Yeah last year

00:02:25   Yeah, and I could not help but get the feeling when I read it that it was rushed into publication

00:02:33   because I kind of felt like at least if she didn't know at least her the

00:02:39   editorial team at her publisher

00:02:41   Sort of got the sense that that the time was kicking on that sort of doom and gloom

00:02:46   Which was interesting because you could probably make an argument for a haunted empire, but

00:02:52   they didn't even make an attempt to make it.

00:02:53   It was a bunch of pages strung together and nothing resembling a book.

00:02:57   Yeah, and a couple of anecdotes to string it together.

00:03:01   I do think, though, like if there is—I think it was a very bad book, and I think it's already

00:03:07   showing its age, and I think it's only going to look worse as the years go on.

00:03:12   But on the other hand, I'm kind of glad the book exists because it captures that sort

00:03:18   of like post Steve Jobs pre-Apple Watch negative Apple perspective.

00:03:28   Like in hindsight, you know what I mean?

00:03:30   It's like these years, they always blur together and four or five years from now, it's like

00:03:35   this whole, you know, period in between where the Apple Watch was announced and when we

00:03:40   we actually have it and we have generation two and three

00:03:43   by four or five years from now.

00:03:45   It'll just be a blink, we'll snap our fingers

00:03:49   and think about this interim period.

00:03:51   But I feel like her book sort of captures

00:03:53   that epitomizes that sort of negative viewpoint.

00:03:56   - Yeah, I think that's absolutely true.

00:03:58   We do tend to look back sort of the rose colored glasses,

00:04:00   the original iPhone, the original iPad,

00:04:02   they couldn't do anywhere nearly what they could do now,

00:04:04   but we still look at them with fondness.

00:04:06   We think of current software updates as being buggy,

00:04:08   But you look back at iOS, you know, two point something

00:04:11   when everyone was complaining it couldn't attach

00:04:13   to a 3G network and Apple was rushing out a fix.

00:04:15   We have this weird sort of affection, I think,

00:04:18   for the past.

00:04:18   - Yeah.

00:04:19   So I do, I think that's 2014 in a nutshell,

00:04:24   is that the world at large and the conventional wisdom

00:04:28   about Apple and about Tim Cook's leadership

00:04:30   have caught up to reality, which is that the company was,

00:04:35   you know, Steve Jobs left the company in very good shape

00:04:38   and in very good hands

00:04:41   and it took about

00:04:42   two or three years it seems for the mainstream financial media to sort of

00:04:47   concede that point

00:04:48   i would say that almost a full three years right because he died in twenty

00:04:52   eleven

00:04:53   i would say it was a full three years

00:04:55   and tim cook i mean the company has never been worth more the stock prices

00:04:58   through the roof they've introduced not only the apple watch but apple pay

00:05:02   they have an A8X processor they have a 5k iMac

00:05:05   And you still look at Fortune contributor networks sometimes

00:05:08   and you just wanna know how they get published.

00:05:11   - Yeah.

00:05:12   All right, you're in review, January.

00:05:14   Definitely a slow start, I think.

00:05:18   - Yeah, again, for some years,

00:05:20   one year we got the Verizon iPhone in January,

00:05:22   one year we got an education event,

00:05:24   previous years we had the introduction of the iPad,

00:05:26   we've had Macworld, the introduction of the iPhone.

00:05:28   So there was sort of, for a long period of time,

00:05:30   there were events that were, there was news in January.

00:05:33   And I think last year there was nothing until WBC

00:05:36   and this year I think it was almost identical to that.

00:05:39   - Yeah, I would say so.

00:05:42   I mean there's, you know,

00:05:45   now that Apple doesn't make announcements in January

00:05:48   or at least they haven't in recent years,

00:05:51   I mean who knows this year in theory

00:05:53   they might have a watch event,

00:05:55   but it's pretty much left to CES,

00:05:58   which Apple doesn't take part in,

00:06:02   for all of the industry news.

00:06:04   I don't recall anything from this year to 2014 CES

00:06:08   that ended up mattering a damn bit.

00:06:12   - No, I mean, I think this year will be different

00:06:14   just because of home kit and health kit and carplay.

00:06:16   But last year, CES was a graveyard.

00:06:19   It was just almost like matrix shelf after matrix shelf

00:06:22   of cases and nothing else.

00:06:24   - Yeah, and I don't think they knew

00:06:25   what they were going to, you know, going to,

00:06:28   the industry as a whole didn't even know

00:06:29   what they were trying to make.

00:06:31   Yeah, they were making their fitness bands.

00:06:33   And I remember one of the worst things I saw at CES

00:06:35   was an Android powered car system

00:06:37   and it was running gingerbread.

00:06:39   And the guy told us with a straight face

00:06:41   that you could leave it on for five days

00:06:42   but it would drain your car battery.

00:06:44   So you had to put it in standby mode.

00:06:46   But if you put it, sorry, but if you turned it off,

00:06:47   it would take like five minutes to boot again.

00:06:50   (laughing)

00:06:51   This was something that they actually had as a press event.

00:06:54   - Are you going to CES again this year?

00:06:57   - Yeah, absolutely.

00:06:58   - Yeah, what's it, Dan Fromer who was on the show last week

00:07:00   is going for the first time this year.

00:07:02   And like I said with him, I always talk about going,

00:07:06   but I've never gone.

00:07:07   - It's alternatively completely barren or incredibly busy

00:07:10   and you never know what's gonna happen year to year.

00:07:12   So I don't have high faith for it,

00:07:15   but I think this year will be different

00:07:16   'cause we will have a watch event,

00:07:18   maybe we'll see another Apple television,

00:07:19   maybe a bigger iPad.

00:07:20   The spring sounds exciting this year,

00:07:22   but last year up until June,

00:07:24   it really was everyone just saying,

00:07:26   where's the new stuff from Apple?

00:07:27   Where's the new stuff?

00:07:27   Are they capable of innovating still?

00:07:29   - Yeah, why do we have to wait?

00:07:31   Why do we have to wait for them to be ready for something?

00:07:33   - Well, that's the thing that I don't understand is do,

00:07:35   would anybody have wanted a 2006 iPhone?

00:07:37   No, because it was not a product yet.

00:07:40   And the Apple Watch won't be a product

00:07:42   until early next year.

00:07:43   You don't want them to ship what they have right now.

00:07:45   - Yeah, and it, you know, to compare and contrast with,

00:07:50   I think the antithesis of Apple's, you know,

00:07:53   we'll let you know when we're ready to show you attitude,

00:07:55   it's Google, you know, who has been,

00:07:59   you know, Google Glass was clearly released ahead of its time.

00:08:03   I mean, it still isn't a retail consumer product, but the fact that they sold it at all to,

00:08:08   what did they call the people, explorers?

00:08:10   Yes.

00:08:11   You know, is the antithesis of Apple's strategy.

00:08:14   That would be the equivalent of if Apple had let WWDC explorers start wearing and using

00:08:21   an Apple Watch, you know, 18 months ago.

00:08:24   Running like Skankwatch software or something.

00:08:26   Right.

00:08:27   And you know the self-driving cars

00:08:29   So many things that Google does they show

00:08:33   Way early and in some sense I the the the I don't think it's productive and you know

00:08:41   Every time I bring it up some people mention that the cars in particular

00:08:45   It's impossible to do it without showing your hand because there's no way to road test them

00:08:50   You know, you have to road test them in public before you can release them and you know way to keep once

00:08:55   it's out in the road you can't keep it secret. So maybe the self-driving cars is a bit of

00:08:59   a bad example. But the other products they do, they release and I think ultimately it's

00:09:09   counterproductive because I think it saps away excitement from the real things you actually

00:09:15   have available to sell to people. But on the other hand, it absolutely works to satisfy

00:09:23   the desires of the tech press as an industry because you're giving them something to write

00:09:29   about.

00:09:30   Yeah, I think that's exactly it.

00:09:31   I think for the tech press, perception really is reality.

00:09:34   So if we see a demo of the Moto 240 or 360 or whatever it is, even though it's not real,

00:09:39   even though leaving a screen like that on, like what they showed in the video is a complete

00:09:43   science fiction fantasy, it sets expectations for that and it makes people think that Google's

00:09:47   really busy and that product is coming and they're innovating and they're doing all these

00:09:50   things.

00:09:51   if it comes out in some cases, you know, it's a complete turd, but everyone's already seen the video the excitements already happened

00:09:57   And then everything else from then on is it his appointment even things made by Apple or another company?

00:10:01   Yeah, it's I think moltz has said it best where he's you know

00:10:05   I think it's moltz but one of his lines is that you know Apple's current products continue to

00:10:12   Fail when compared to the upcoming products in future years from its competitors

00:10:18   It's like the iPhone 5c was a huge disappointment even though it was the third most popular phone in the world and the iPad sales

00:10:24   Are lagging even though they're any company in the world would be happy to have that in their product line

00:10:28   Yeah, or another example. I just noticed this week and it's funny. I haven't linked it up yet, but

00:10:33   The same day or within 24 hours

00:10:37   There was a New York Times story about the success of Apple pay and about a whole bunch of nude retailers who've signed up for it

00:10:47   Some big supermarket chains like Winn-dixie, which is real big in the south here in the US. I

00:10:52   Forget who else but some big big name retailers have signed up

00:10:56   and

00:10:59   Companies like Whole Foods who've been on board since it started who said that it's you know

00:11:03   It accounts for over 1% of their transactions and an enormous percent of you know

00:11:07   The digital transactions or what would you call it cardless transactions?

00:11:12   And at the same time there were like three or four stories that I saw all based on the same analyst report about what what?

00:11:20   What trouble Apple pay is in because they've woken up

00:11:24   The MCX partners and really gotten the MCX partners to really want to do a good job

00:11:30   And so now Apple pays in trouble because MCX is is still coming

00:11:35   It's reminds me that article. I think it was two weeks ago where someone said Apple pay

00:11:39   probably another one of the Forbes contributor networks, that Apple Pay was

00:11:43   a huge disappointment because it was only responsible for a very small amount of

00:11:47   transactions worldwide. Never mind America didn't have a much of equipment

00:11:50   for it and it was only available in America which is far behind in

00:11:54   terms of NFC. It's amazing what perspective they can bring to it when

00:11:57   they try hard enough to put it in a bad light. Right, that there's no other

00:12:01   digital, you know, pay with your phone transaction retail thing that's even

00:12:06   Close to as popular as Apple pay but somehow it's a failure because it's still only 1% of the market, you know

00:12:12   Two months in yeah in one car not even two months, right? It didn't even launch until November. Yeah, I think right

00:12:19   October I think came with iOS 8.1. All right. Well still that's a you know, right about two months. Yep, two months

00:12:26   And it's crazy to me too that

00:12:35   With the MCX that they don't mention the people who you know who want to promote it

00:12:40   Which I think I think it's not because they actually believe it. I think it's even though they're analysts rather than press

00:12:45   I think it's this this

00:12:47   Idea that you want to present everything as a neck-and-neck battle, right?

00:12:52   You know and so Apple pay is threatened by MCX because it's gonna be backed by Walmart and whoever else and they have you know

00:13:01   huge huge footprint in retail

00:13:04   But they just skip over the most obvious aspects of what has made Apple pay

00:13:10   successful

00:13:12   which is

00:13:14   exactly what Tim Cook said on stage when he introduced it, which is

00:13:18   You know, it's it's one of like my biggest recurring mantras about Apple is don't underestimate how often

00:13:25   They're not giving you any spin any bullshit

00:13:28   they're just telling you flat out in plain language exactly why they did what

00:13:33   they did and with Apple Bay Tim Cook's explanation was we think everybody else

00:13:38   who's tried this to date has failed because they haven't concentrated on the

00:13:41   user experience and made that their priority that's what we've done we've

00:13:46   made it as easy as possible to use as quick to use and as privacy protecting

00:13:52   as we can, all in the name of the user.

00:13:57   You know, and if that's all they did, well then who, you know, what retailer would hook up the equipment?

00:14:02   But the other things they did secondary to the user focus is use the established

00:14:07   infrastructure for NFC payments and make the banks

00:14:12   happy by taking a very minimal cut and by promising

00:14:17   significantly increase security which gets the banks on board because the

00:14:23   banks can do the math and I really do think it works out which is that Apple's

00:14:27   little 0.15% cut of the transactions is less than the cost of fraud per

00:14:34   transaction that the banks have been used to I think that's absolutely true

00:14:39   especially when you look at and the the privacy and the security too when you

00:14:42   look at all the data breaches at the targets or the Home Depots but I think

00:14:45   You nailed it when you said it,

00:14:46   it's aligned with my interests.

00:14:48   I've gone to Apple Pay terminals,

00:14:50   even the demo ones set up at Apple when we were at the event

00:14:52   and they read my Canadian NFC credit card.

00:14:54   That technology is not gonna just benefit Apple,

00:14:56   it's gonna benefit everybody

00:14:57   who uses any sort of NFC transaction.

00:15:01   And you compare that to current currency

00:15:02   or whatever it's called,

00:15:03   and that you have to give the retailer your bank account,

00:15:06   you have to have a QR code, you have to scan the QR code.

00:15:09   And it is such a horrible experience

00:15:11   and it's not done to the benefit of the consumer,

00:15:13   done to try to increase the amount of to save money on transactions they pay the credit

00:15:17   card companies never mind how long it's gonna how much money is gonna cost them in terms

00:15:21   of cashiers fees for the incredibly complicated error prone system that they're establishing

00:15:25   right you can't prove yet that Tim Cook's explanation for you know why they thought

00:15:31   Apple pay would be successful and why it seems to be successful today are true and that cut

00:15:37   you know that a user focused approach is is the way to get it done

00:15:42   and who knows maybe something like currency will also become popular

00:15:48   i don't i don't know i have my doubts about currency in particular but

00:15:52   you know it could be that something that's a lot more retailer friendly as

00:15:56   opposed to consumer friendly could work

00:15:58   but the evidence today suggests you know that what apple said was exactly right

00:16:04   it's also uh...

00:16:05   What benefits the retailer is interesting

00:16:08   because me getting through the checkout line

00:16:10   really quickly benefits the retailer.

00:16:12   And I believe it's my understanding that a lot of,

00:16:15   they signed multi-year agreements with currency

00:16:17   and with MCX when they started,

00:16:19   which was a silly thing to do, but they did it.

00:16:20   But I believe a lot of those expire pretty early on

00:16:22   this year and it'll be interesting, sorry, not this year,

00:16:24   but in 2015, and it'll be interesting to see how many

00:16:27   of those adopt Apple Pay as soon as they are

00:16:29   contractually allowed to.

00:16:30   - And the other thing that I keep thinking about

00:16:34   as a technical limitation is the way that there's one thing that Apple Pay has that

00:16:39   no other payment system that would work on the iPhone at least. I mean obviously like

00:16:44   what Google could enable on Android or Microsoft with Windows Phone is different but at least

00:16:49   if you want iPhone using customers, the one thing they have that nobody else can do is

00:16:55   the way that it works at the system level rather than the app level. Like and I just

00:17:00   can't emphasize enough for anybody out there who hasn't used Apple Pay yet because you

00:17:04   don't have an iPhone 6 or because you don't shop at one of the places that supports it

00:17:09   yet. But I just can't emphasize enough how instead of like feeling like a one step process,

00:17:18   it almost feels like a zero step process because you don't have to unlock your phone. You just

00:17:23   take the phone, even if it's not on, and just get it within an inch of the terminal, rest

00:17:29   your thumb on the reader and that's it.

00:17:32   - It's gonna sound like--

00:17:34   - Nobody else can do that.

00:17:35   Like if a current C app on the iPhone,

00:17:38   you would have to unlock your phone, open the app,

00:17:41   and go from there, which is, you know,

00:17:46   it doesn't sound like a lot,

00:17:48   but compared to Apple Pay, it is a lot.

00:17:50   - I get upset, most places here,

00:17:52   I can just tap my card and go,

00:17:53   and when it doesn't work, you feel like an animal

00:17:55   having to put it in and put in a pin code or swipe it.

00:17:58   I haven't had a swipe or sign something in over a year.

00:18:01   But it reminds me of something else

00:18:03   and it's a bit of a tangent, but I think it's the same thing.

00:18:06   It all goes back to Apple making like the A8 chipset

00:18:09   or the 8X chipset in that you take the cameras,

00:18:12   for instance, I take out my iPhone,

00:18:13   I can just take a picture and nine out of 10 times,

00:18:15   it's gonna be a really good everyday picture.

00:18:19   And that's because Apple makes

00:18:20   their own image signal processor.

00:18:22   When you look at Microsoft who buys off the shelf chips,

00:18:24   they have to put really big glass on the front

00:18:26   and collect as much light as they can

00:18:28   because they're using off the shelf chips.

00:18:30   There's no advantage to them there.

00:18:32   Google has no idea what hardware

00:18:33   or what software is running on their phones.

00:18:35   They try to suck it up to the server

00:18:36   and do all the auto awesome stuff.

00:18:37   But Apple is just making sure that

00:18:39   they have a good camera on it,

00:18:41   they'll process it and almost any shot you take

00:18:43   will be useful for a normal person.

00:18:45   And that's the same thing.

00:18:47   You can't get that advantage unless you own

00:18:48   the entire stack the way that they do.

00:18:50   And now they're moving that into payments

00:18:51   and they're moving that into other areas with the iPhone.

00:18:54   - Yeah, no, you can't underestimate the advantage.

00:18:57   And I think it totally gets written off

00:19:00   by these naysaying analysts,

00:19:03   what an advantage Apple has by controlling

00:19:05   that level of the stack.

00:19:07   - I used to think they were naysaying,

00:19:09   and I have a friend who was a sell-side analyst,

00:19:11   and he explained it to me,

00:19:11   and it's that the press reports analysts

00:19:13   as though they're giving comments to readers,

00:19:15   and their comments are not meant for their readers,

00:19:17   they're meant to manipulate the markets.

00:19:19   And what they say has very little to do

00:19:20   with what they believe.

00:19:21   It's entirely, they probably told their own clients

00:19:23   something different two days ago, or three days ago,

00:19:26   and now they want to produce results for them.

00:19:28   So it's so undependable, I don't know why it gets reported.

00:19:31   - Right, like an analyst who comes out with a report

00:19:34   that seems to be very pessimistic

00:19:35   about Apple Pay's long-term prospects,

00:19:38   might in fact, honestly, privately,

00:19:40   in terms of where he's putting money

00:19:42   and advising his clients to put money,

00:19:43   being very bullish on the future of Apple Pay.

00:19:46   - It's like that video with Crane from a couple years ago

00:19:48   where he says, "You want to make money?

00:19:49   You spread a rumor saying the iPhone is gonna be delayed.

00:19:52   You call up the news networks

00:19:53   and you tell them it's gonna be delayed.

00:19:54   Then all of a sudden Apple's down

00:19:55   you've shorted all the shares. I think that happens a lot. Yeah. What was that

00:19:58   guy's name? Jim Cramer. Yeah, Jim Cramer. That's it. Yeah, it's baffling, but and

00:20:04   again this stuff keeps getting reported as though it's factual accounting on

00:20:06   what Apple's doing. What else in the first half of the year? I think there was

00:20:14   was Angela, I think Angela Ahrens was in early on in the year. Yeah, I do think so.

00:20:20   When was she hired?

00:20:22   - She was definitely, February, March.

00:20:24   - Yeah.

00:20:25   - That's a complete turnaround from John Browett

00:20:27   from the previous year.

00:20:27   - Yeah.

00:20:28   - And I think that's super interesting

00:20:29   because Apple is really doing well in Apple stores,

00:20:32   but some people will say that it's a stale experience

00:20:35   that they haven't evolved it.

00:20:36   Even though it's working, it's hugely successful.

00:20:38   But they gave her not only Apple retail,

00:20:40   but Apple Online as well,

00:20:42   which used to operate almost as separate businesses.

00:20:44   And it's similar to giving Federiki control

00:20:46   over both OS X and iOS,

00:20:48   and that those sort of artificial walls are falling down

00:20:51   and it's providing better service for everybody involved.

00:20:54   - So Angela Arnnst, her hiring was announced a year ago

00:20:59   in October 2013, but she did not start until,

00:21:03   I believe February or March of 2014.

00:21:07   I've said this before, and it seems obvious,

00:21:10   but it's so clear to me that the reason why they hired her

00:21:13   and why she would take the job is because of the watch.

00:21:17   - Yes.

00:21:18   - Well, she was a CEO of Burberry.

00:21:20   That's a huge job and people didn't understand

00:21:21   why she'd become a senior vice president at Apple,

00:21:24   even though the senior vice president of retail

00:21:25   and now online as well is a huge job.

00:21:28   It's like being a CEO of another company,

00:21:31   but it's still, I think you're exactly right.

00:21:32   Apple dangled something in front of her

00:21:35   that was a challenge and people like that want a challenge.

00:21:38   - Yeah, totally.

00:21:39   And it does seem, it seems, you know,

00:21:42   it's not like, we haven't really seen the ARNSTs effect

00:21:45   on anything in retail yet,

00:21:48   but I don't think there's anybody who doesn't think

00:21:50   that that's coming.

00:21:51   - Yeah.

00:21:52   - You know, I think that there's half of it,

00:21:55   I think is that changes like that take a lot of time

00:21:58   because it, or not a lot of time,

00:22:01   but a lot of time compared to our industry, right?

00:22:04   Because you can't do it digitally.

00:22:05   You can't just, you know, have a new store and, you know,

00:22:10   like they do with the online store,

00:22:12   put up a sticky note for 15 minutes.

00:22:14   And then when you come back, it's an all new store,

00:22:17   you know, this brick and mortar stuff takes physical, you know, actual time.

00:22:21   And, you know, to take a store down and put it back up is time when you're not

00:22:26   making sales, you know? So like in San Francisco,

00:22:29   I don't know if the new store is open yet,

00:22:31   but they're not putting the new store on the same spot as the old store.

00:22:34   They're putting it like on the other corner around, uh,

00:22:37   what's the name of that part? Union square. Yep. Um, you know,

00:22:42   and you can't do that everywhere where Apple has a retail store. You know,

00:22:46   most of the ones that are in shopping malls,

00:22:50   you could, I guess, get another spot in the mall,

00:22:53   but who knows if there's one, you know,

00:22:55   it all depends on availability

00:22:56   that's outside the control of Apple.

00:22:58   - And they're not like a carrier company

00:23:00   who's gonna just put a little kiosk out front

00:23:01   while the store is closed behind it.

00:23:03   - Right, exactly.

00:23:04   - Yeah, I think you're right.

00:23:08   I think as the watch starts to deploy into the stores

00:23:11   and as the other products start coming online for next year,

00:23:12   we're gonna see the stores sort of transform to,

00:23:15   I don't know if fashion is the right word.

00:23:17   I think Apple's doing something really interesting

00:23:19   where technology is meeting fashion,

00:23:20   but it's gonna be an Apple store

00:23:22   that has to be different than it was in the past.

00:23:24   - Yeah, let me see, anything else?

00:23:26   I don't really see much else.

00:23:28   - Beats, I think, was announced earlier on in the year

00:23:31   'cause they had Dre on the stage for WVDC,

00:23:33   so it must have been.

00:23:33   - May 2014, Apple to acquire music,

00:23:37   Beats Music and Beats Electronics.

00:23:39   I don't know that that's major news,

00:23:44   But it's because it's not a huge it's a it's a much bigger transaction than apple has made

00:23:50   You know famously, you know, it's the biggest acquisition since they acquired next

00:23:55   Which of course, you know

00:23:57   Is the you know turned into like the backbone of the country of the company?

00:24:01   But uh, you know a 500 million dollar acquisition in 1997 was like was seriously a bet the company acquisition

00:24:11   Whereas a you know three billion or whatever it cost acquisition to get beats is pocket change

00:24:17   Absolutely. Yeah, 300 billion three billion dollars

00:24:20   You know, I mean you don't want to make a three billion dollar acquisition

00:24:24   That doesn't turn out well, but it certainly isn't gonna have any meaningful if it turns out to be a complete bust

00:24:30   It's not gonna hurt the company

00:24:31   I think more interesting than the beats acquisition was just the reactions to it from it was almost like everyone went through the the five

00:24:37   stages of grief with denial and anger and they just couldn't believe it and it

00:24:41   turns out it does make some sense there are you know selling headphones at Apple

00:24:45   stores makes a lot of sense and sort of a synergy between iTunes radio and Beats

00:24:49   music whatever it ends up being labeled makes a lot of sense yeah and I think I

00:24:55   don't know I still don't think overall it makes a ton of sense I'm still

00:24:59   waiting for the other shoe to drop on it but it's in some sense it does where

00:25:04   It's the only other iconic headphone company I can think of I mean it has nothing to do with you know, Marco Arment style

00:25:11   Quality analysis but rather you're out on the sidewalk and you see somebody walking while they're listening to their device and you know

00:25:21   Those white earbuds that Apple's been making ever since 2001 are truly iconic

00:25:26   I mean they even had for years an ad campaign that was kind of based on that right with the silhouettes dancing silhouettes

00:25:33   Who you know have white earbuds and a white why?

00:25:37   You know connector draped around their body

00:25:40   They own that right not that other companies had you know that they have a trademark on it and nobody can make white earbuds

00:25:46   But white earbuds people see them

00:25:48   They think that's somebody listening to an Apple device and beats is the only other company I can think of that has that sort of

00:25:54   Recognition yeah, they have that the other cache that the iPod commercials used to have ten years ago

00:26:00   But I think there's also an element to Eddie cues

00:26:02   Organization is just so big and there's gonna be a limit at some point to what he can do

00:26:06   I mean he's doing Apple pay now as well

00:26:08   He does the App Store and the iTunes store and he does all the contract negotiations

00:26:12   And if you could have Jimmy Iovine in there doing at least some of that it takes more stuff off of Eddie cues desk

00:26:18   Yeah something I've heard and it you know, I don't think this is surprising

00:26:22   That's probably what everybody was guessing anyway

00:26:24   but what I have heard recently was that at least inside Apple the beats acquisition is

00:26:30   Viewed as an Eddie thing that Eddie Eddie Eddie started it and he pushed for it Eddie drove it and not that that Tim

00:26:38   Cook wasn't engaged and I'm sure that at the negotiation level he was in fact deeply engaged

00:26:43   I mean, I don't think you know, Tim Cook has not like don't worry about the details sort of CEO

00:26:51   So not to diminish what Tim Cook's role in the negotiations might have been but in terms of

00:26:56   Advocating it and and you know

00:26:59   Pushing for it. It was in almost entirely an ediq thing

00:27:03   Because we didn't see anything about iTunes this year. We didn't see continuity for iTunes

00:27:08   For example, we didn't see a new iTunes music service iTunes radio still hasn't gone past the US and Australia

00:27:14   I think and iTunes is an aging platform. It's still based on web objects

00:27:18   is still based on their original software they use to manage you know the music store

00:27:22   and all of that at some point you know it's gonna be like a John Siracusa thing where

00:27:26   a thousand years from now this is gonna have to be fixed so what's the point between now

00:27:29   and then that it actually gets fixed and I don't know if beats has better software or

00:27:32   better solution but it could also be a catalyst to Apple finally fixing a lot of the infrastructure

00:27:38   things that they have to do with the iTunes store yeah I think you know above and beyond

00:27:43   whether it's based on web objects behind the scenes and and all of that I think it's ever

00:27:48   more clear that it's based on a model that just isn't relevant anymore. Which is, here's

00:27:56   a song you want and you give a retailer money for it and now you own a copy of it. That's

00:28:03   just not, that's just, that's done. I mean, I'm not done in the sense of they're not selling

00:28:09   any songs anymore, but that I can't see any way that that ever comes back.

00:28:16   Yes.

00:28:17   it's in permanent decline.

00:28:19   It's sort of like what standalone iPods are.

00:28:22   It's still a decent business,

00:28:26   but it's never going to increase quarter over quarter.

00:28:29   It's just gonna go into permanent decline.

00:28:32   - Yeah, and just like the iPod is being replaced

00:28:34   by the iPhone, in some cases, the iPad mini,

00:28:36   and now larger iPhones,

00:28:37   it makes sense for whatever iTunes was,

00:28:39   for Apple to get in early enough

00:28:41   to have whatever iTunes will end up being.

00:28:42   - Right, and it's, yeah, and in the same way

00:28:45   that it, you know, iPods sales decreasing doesn't mean that people are spending less

00:28:49   time with gadgets that play music. In the same way, music sales declining doesn't mean

00:28:55   people are spending less time listening to music. If anything, they're probably spending

00:29:00   more. You know, I wouldn't be surprised if you did a study and found out that people

00:29:03   listen to more music today or at least time spent listening to music than ever before.

00:29:09   It's just that the model is no longer buying and selling.

00:29:12   Yeah, it's not it's not what you had to buy it

00:29:15   It's not we had to wait in the radio people can get pretty much what they want when they want and that opens them up

00:29:18   To just consuming it almost non-stop if they want to

00:29:21   right

00:29:24   So, I don't know I'm still not sure what to make of that if is the beats thing an exception to the rule just

00:29:31   because it is it it combines two things that Apple wants to continue being a leader at which is

00:29:38   music listening hardware and

00:29:41   and digital distribution of legal music.

00:29:46   Is it just that Beats is like a rare,

00:29:49   perfect storm acquisition?

00:29:52   Or is it the sign of things to come

00:29:54   that Apple is going to loosen up

00:29:56   and become a company that does mid-level

00:30:01   or to high-level acquisitions with some frequency?

00:30:04   - I think, again, to your point about Apple

00:30:05   just saying what they really feel,

00:30:06   I think when Tim Cook says they're not religiously opposed

00:30:08   to big acquisitions,

00:30:10   I think he's absolutely sincere about that.

00:30:11   They'll do them when they make sense,

00:30:13   but it's gotta be something like Beats

00:30:14   where it gives them a hardware product.

00:30:16   They can sell the compliments and other hardware product,

00:30:18   a service they can roll out the compliments

00:30:20   and existing service,

00:30:21   and has executives that might be able to,

00:30:23   you know, a service, sorry,

00:30:24   executives and a culture that can integrate into Apple

00:30:27   and help them do the things that they wanna do.

00:30:29   - Right, and it doesn't really,

00:30:30   that's the thing that has me,

00:30:31   I'm still curious about it,

00:30:34   but it doesn't make me worried about it

00:30:36   the way that there's any number of other possible

00:30:40   three billion dollar-ish acquisitions

00:30:43   that Apple could have made that would raise my Spidey sense,

00:30:47   you know, in a way that Beats doesn't.

00:30:49   Because the biggest thing is that it doesn't fundamentally

00:30:52   change any of the areas of focus in Apple's attention.

00:30:56   - Yeah, like you said last week with Frommer,

00:30:58   it doesn't make them a conglomerate.

00:30:59   - Right, which is exactly what, you know,

00:31:02   to me is like the first canary I check in the coal mine

00:31:06   Is is Apple losing focus and becoming more of a conglomerate which I you know, we don't know

00:31:11   I mean, I don't say that I don't say that Apple becoming a

00:31:14   Multifocused conglomerate would be bad. We just have no idea and there's no history for Apple as

00:31:20   a you know

00:31:23   Whatever their revenue is, you know 50 or 200 billion dollar a year corporation

00:31:28   I mean, you know, they're an uncharted territory period there's you know, they're the most valuable company not just in tech but anywhere

00:31:34   But it would be so it wouldn't be you know them making seemingly

00:31:41   Unfocused acquisitions wouldn't make me sure that they were on the wrong track

00:31:47   But it would make me strongly suspect that they were on the wrong track

00:31:51   Yeah

00:31:51   And it's wonder how the analysts would treat it because it wouldn't be expected behavior

00:31:55   Google can compete with everybody they can compete with Amazon with Apple with

00:31:58   Microsoft with any tech company in the world and do it all at the same time and that's fine and interesting and wonderful

00:32:03   wonderful but you'd probably you probably hear howls all the way across the valley if

00:32:08   Apple started doing that yeah well and Google can compete with itself you know you know

00:32:13   Chromebooks versus Android tablets is a perfect example and I don't even say that that's a

00:32:19   mistake I think it kind of fits with Google's internal culture whereas if Apple had seemingly

00:32:27   confusing overlap between low-end Mac books and iPads, I would find that worrisome.

00:32:35   Yeah, agreed.

00:32:36   Like if Apple had a $399 MacBook, that to me would be very worrisome.

00:32:43   I still have in the back of my head this idea that Google bought Android because they were

00:32:46   panicked about mobile and then saw WebOS and smacked their head and thought that was a

00:32:50   way more Google product than buying Android, but then they were all in on Android and now

00:32:54   They're slowly gonna it's fun to get away to get chroma West to a point where that can be their version of web OS

00:32:59   That's an interesting. That's an interesting argument too because they ended up hiring

00:33:03   Matta Mattias Duarte. Yep

00:33:06   Take his name, right? Yeah, absolutely

00:33:09   Who was the you know lead designer behind web OS? Yeah

00:33:15   And they're slowly giving send our Patai control over the stack and he was you know

00:33:20   He's the web guy

00:33:21   He's Android always seemed like an odd product from Google because it's a web company and that was very native software

00:33:25   Yeah, and I really do think that that it took a long time for Google or for Android. I should say to

00:33:32   Not to not at the low end but at the sort of mid to high end to get any sort of foothold is that they

00:33:40   Were in such a deep hole design wise, you know

00:33:43   compared to the iPhone that any you know

00:33:46   even people who were inclined not to buy Apple stuff people who haven't ever bought Apple stuff and sort of want to you know,

00:33:54   It's a natural thing, you know people who've been sticking with the PC for years

00:33:57   and sort of having

00:34:00   Apple is for other people sort of mindset about the company

00:34:03   You know in 2011 even through 2012 you go into a store and compare the Android phones to

00:34:11   iPhone and it's you know, you don't even have to be a design critic

00:34:15   you just see that there's a serious difference in fit and finish in the software.

00:34:20   It was a very different priority.

00:34:22   Apple famously wanted to get the animation just absolutely nailed even in the first generation

00:34:27   iPhone, but they didn't need to have every single feature crammed in there where Android

00:34:31   was...

00:34:32   It wasn't designed to be a phone for everybody.

00:34:34   It was designed to be a phone that would protect Google's share of the web because they rightly

00:34:38   believe web was moving mobile.

00:34:40   Their priority wasn't that sort of interactivity.

00:34:42   They bought Android and they made it work.

00:34:46   But I remember even last year at CES, I was sitting there with the Nexus 4 or 5 trying

00:34:51   to use Gmail and just cursing out loud.

00:34:53   And Brian Klug from formerly of Anantech came over and quickly put it in developer mode

00:34:58   and the screen went bright red.

00:34:59   And he said that's because they're redrawing every cell four or five times trying to hope

00:35:02   that it would stick.

00:35:04   And their own graphics engineers couldn't get their own Gmail engineers to properly

00:35:09   code all of it.

00:35:10   That's why they've really locked things down now with material design and all the new things.

00:35:15   But it took them four or five years to fix the massive architectural problems that were

00:35:19   causing poor interaction.

00:35:21   Right.

00:35:22   And the difference with WebOS is that WebOS, right from the get-go, it had performance

00:35:25   problems because of the whole architecture of building it on top of like a WebKit rendering

00:35:31   engine.

00:35:32   combined with the state of mobile hardware in what was it 2009 when when

00:35:40   when the pre came out yeah but I you know in terms of an an elegant software

00:35:48   interface I mean I mean you could still it to this day I think you could argue

00:35:53   that the way that web OS handled notifications is the best design

00:35:56   anybody's come up with absolutely there synergies I mean it was almost the

00:36:01   fringe universe version of the iPhone if if John Rubenstein had won the keyboard

00:36:05   argument or if what's his name it won the the Linux argument or if the people

00:36:10   who wanted to use WebKit as the interface instead of creating UI kit had

00:36:13   won that argument that could have been an Apple product right Tony said Tony

00:36:17   Fidel yeah but instead they all ended up at palm making except for Fidel Rubenstein

00:36:21   and and the web the WebKit engineers ended up at palm making their version of

00:36:25   the iPhone yeah absolutely I I if you would have shown if you would have taken

00:36:30   of a palm pre back in time to you know 1998 1997 and shown it to my then self

00:36:38   and said what come you know this is a product from 2009 what company made it

00:36:42   you know scrub the logos off I would have guessed Apple yeah without question

00:36:46   especially if you just showed me the software and not the hardware the

00:36:50   hardware was a lot less appley but the software was extremely appley in my

00:36:56   opinion everything from the font choice to you know the roundness you know the

00:37:01   rounded corners of the screen the rounded corners of the cards on the

00:37:06   screen I think it was a very Apple DNA product software wise I've never seen

00:37:12   the p1 phone this fidel's group was working on but in I've always suspected

00:37:16   that if that had been the phone that had got the gone ahead of some reason p2

00:37:19   hadn't worked out and forest all's group hadn't been able to make the iPhone that

00:37:23   could have ended up being very similar to what the Pom Pre was. Yeah, and so it's interesting to think

00:37:27   hypothetically what would have happened if Google had purchased, had somehow obtained, webOS instead of Android and pushed for it because in

00:37:35   some sense the problems that webOS had were, I think,

00:37:39   not solvable by throwing money at them, but more easily solved by throwing money at it than Android.

00:37:46   Because with Android it was to me,

00:37:49   Fundamentally the fact that it was designed at the outset as a sort of blackberry

00:37:53   Style you know that it was going to you know a blackberry style mobile interface keyboard up down left right select

00:38:01   and

00:38:03   therefore had no

00:38:05   No, no at a foundation level aspect of a rich graphical interface with playful animations and high frame

00:38:13   Rates and stuff like that. I've told the story before but when I reviewed the g1 the very first Android phone that came out

00:38:18   I turned on the snake game and it said press up to start and I tried you know swiping up on the screen

00:38:23   Then I tried pressing the up arrow key

00:38:24   Then I tried pressing the up joypad and then I tried pressing up on whatever the other thing was on the other side

00:38:29   I tried eight different ways of signaling up and I couldn't get it to work

00:38:32   But there were eight different ways of signaling up right and that to me to find the very early years of Android

00:38:37   Might I remember too that it was the only way to select text was to use the up down left, right?

00:38:42   There was no way to touch on the screen to select text you had to

00:38:46   You know more or less use like arrow keys

00:38:48   And the original one you'd close the keyboard and there'd be the juke the Google search box just blinking at you wanting you to put

00:38:54   Text but there was no virtual keyboard so you couldn't input text

00:38:57   remember that

00:39:00   And that's one of the problems they were facing and and palm was a tiny team and they they coded circles around Google when it

00:39:06   came to phones in 2009

00:39:08   So anyway, that's an interesting what-if it's and to me it's of the last

00:39:15   of the post PC era, you know, from mid 2007 on,

00:39:20   the great tragedy of the whole thing is that

00:39:24   WebOS never, you know, didn't get a long enough time

00:39:27   to try to gain a foothold.

00:39:29   - Agreed.

00:39:30   - You know, I mean, I think it was a more elegant design

00:39:34   than Windows Phone.

00:39:36   And so just imagine if they had had somebody

00:39:39   with the wherewithal that Microsoft has shown

00:39:42   with Windows Phone to stick behind WebOS, you know?

00:39:46   And, you know, push the software forward,

00:39:49   break some of the performance bottlenecks,

00:39:52   but also just let Moore's Law help you out year after year.

00:39:56   You know, two, three years later,

00:39:58   WebOS I think would have been a lot more,

00:40:01   without even any software optimizations,

00:40:04   would have been a lot more tenable performance-wise.

00:40:08   - Absolutely, I mean, they had no secondary source of income.

00:40:10   Apple had Mac money originally,

00:40:11   Google had search money, even Samsung had appliance money.

00:40:14   Palm and now Blackberry, they have no additional sources

00:40:16   of income and so everything becomes,

00:40:18   everything becomes Bet the Company.

00:40:20   Every phone you put out becomes Bet the Company.

00:40:22   - Yeah.

00:40:23   All right, let me take a break and thank our first sponsor

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00:43:10   So the first big Apple news of the year, 2014, really didn't come until WWDC.

00:43:14   >> Yeah. But what an event. >> Yeah. I think it was certainly -- it still

00:43:20   seems like -- it doesn't seem like as long ago as it is. It doesn't feel like six months

00:43:25   ago. No, it was amazing because I was sitting with you and Jason Snell and

00:43:30   John Siracusa and different people were just lighting up at different parts of

00:43:35   that event. It was just such a palpable reaction for them. Siracusa and Swift, right?

00:43:41   Well, he turned to Snell and he goes, "Am I dreaming? Because if I'm... you should tell me

00:43:44   because I might be in a fugue state. I don't know if this is real or not. Please

00:43:47   tell me that I'm actually listening to what I'm listening to." That was certainly

00:43:51   big news. You know, iOS 8 and Yosemite. It was the first time we got a look at Yosemite.

00:44:01   And I think, you know, certain, how should we say it? Not like a specific, you know,

00:44:11   like here's three lines of code, copy these exactly, this is how you do X, the recommended

00:44:17   But more in terms of like broad strokes philosophy

00:44:20   I think Apple started pushing a couple of new things not necessarily for the first time

00:44:25   But two examples I can think of was the heavy focus on

00:44:29   Dynamic user interface layout. Yeah

00:44:32   clearly

00:44:35   Preshadowing, you know pre, you know in in the run-up to the iPhone 6 and 6 plus

00:44:43   But I think in the long run more

00:44:45   Envisioning a world of iOS devices where there's a continuum of screen sizes, you know

00:44:53   And who knows maybe eventually something smaller than four inches

00:44:56   and

00:44:59   You know by all accounts maybe one of the things you know

00:45:02   That we'll be hearing about in 20 for early parts of 2015 would be a bigger screen some kind of iPad

00:45:08   that's bigger than 9.7 inches and

00:45:11   and not having to code a custom user interface for each size in that continuum.

00:45:19   It's a definite, it's a huge change from the way iOS development was until recently.

00:45:23   And it wasn't just about supporting the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus.

00:45:28   >> The way I look at it, there was the integration theme, which we'll probably get to.

00:45:34   But the other big theme was this transition from pull to push,

00:45:37   where previously the interface was locked to the device.

00:45:40   and then slowly but surely with things like AirPlay and CarPlay and now WatchKit, the

00:45:46   interface is actually decoupled so you have the logic on one device and the interface

00:45:49   going somewhere else.

00:45:51   Or you have the logic for the app of the interface being able to be flexible between the 4-inch

00:45:55   screen size, 4.7, 6-inch.

00:45:57   Now that you have split view controllers on the iPhone 6 Plus, it's sort of like a mini

00:46:01   iPad.

00:46:02   So like you said, it can scale across those things, but it's all sort of one central part

00:46:07   of logic.

00:46:08   And then you add extensibility to it where previously you had to hunt around your iPhone

00:46:12   for anything.

00:46:13   You had to go between six different photo apps just to get the effects you wanted.

00:46:17   You had to leave to reply to a message.

00:46:19   You had to leave if you wanted to share to Tumblr.

00:46:21   You couldn't do that from where you were.

00:46:22   You had to go to the Tumblr app and do it.

00:46:24   And now all of that functionality has come to one place.

00:46:27   All of that is now independent.

00:46:28   You have these remote views.

00:46:30   And to me that's made, that sort of severing of that one unit into these more modular parts

00:46:34   has really made a huge difference not just in my workflow but where I think Apple could

00:46:38   take all these. I think it's the first big hint of much larger plans they have moving

00:46:42   forward with these devices.

00:46:44   Right and you mentioned both CarPlay which is that's how CarPlay works where CarPlay

00:46:48   is a dumb terminal effectively and you know take your iPhone out of Bluetooth range and

00:46:56   the only thing the screen is going to show you in your car is the stuff from the manufacturer.

00:47:01   You're not going to get any of the Apple play stuff or car play stuff.

00:47:05   No iOS at all.

00:47:09   It's only a it's really just effectively a projector.

00:47:12   Your iPhone is doing all of the computation.

00:47:14   Your iPhone is all of the storage.

00:47:16   Your iPhone is doing the networking for anything that's coming over cellular.

00:47:21   And the only thing that the screen in your car does is show you what the iPhone is showing

00:47:27   and report back to the phone where you're stabbing your fingers at it.

00:47:34   And the watch, you know, as we now know and as, you know, countless people have, you know,

00:47:40   the initial watch kit SDK shows, the first round of third party apps pretty much works

00:47:47   the same way.

00:47:48   You don't get to run any code.

00:47:49   There's no part of watch, this initial watch kit where your app runs code on the watch.

00:47:56   just a projected display of what your phone app, your iPhone app is showing it

00:48:02   and then the watch just reports back what you tapped on. I would like that

00:48:07   everywhere I mean I like the idea of CarPlay I bought the Toyota car before

00:48:11   they had any integration at all and my only option is to buy a new car if I

00:48:15   want anything but with CarPlay every time I upgrade iOS or upgrade my phone I

00:48:19   get a better experience I'd like that on my camera I'd like CameraPlay so that my

00:48:23   the Canon interface is replaced with iOS.

00:48:25   I don't wanna have Android appliances at home,

00:48:27   I wanna have them running iOS.

00:48:28   Just anytime there's a screen,

00:48:29   I would eventually like to be able to just put,

00:48:31   like project iOS right onto it.

00:48:34   - Ooh, doing that with a camera, like a Canon,

00:48:37   or like a serious, serious camera would be fascinating.

00:48:41   I mean, there is a move afoot in the camera world

00:48:44   to build in Wi-Fi, but it's,

00:48:47   and I don't have a camera that does it yet.

00:48:49   my Fuji X100S is a year off.

00:48:54   Like the brand new X100T,

00:48:56   which just came out a few weeks ago

00:48:58   and I linked to a review of it a couple of days ago,

00:49:01   now has WiFi, but it's clunky.

00:49:03   Like the only way to get it to work,

00:49:05   I haven't seen it,

00:49:05   but it's like you have to get a Fuji app from the app store

00:49:08   and then open the Fuji app on your phone

00:49:11   and then you can do something between your phone

00:49:14   and the camera.

00:49:17   Whereas having it be like CarPlay,

00:49:19   man, that would be fantastic.

00:49:21   - And it's great for Apple

00:49:21   because they're never gonna get into,

00:49:23   never is a long time,

00:49:24   but they're not gonna get into making appliances.

00:49:25   They're not gonna become a giant manufacturing conglomerate

00:49:27   like Samsung.

00:49:28   And they're not gonna license iOS

00:49:30   the way that Android is easily able to be put on any device.

00:49:33   But just projecting the interface,

00:49:34   it means they can still control it.

00:49:36   They in essence just take it over.

00:49:37   And the customer will have a great experience

00:49:39   and they don't have to relinquish any of the control

00:49:41   that they need for products.

00:49:42   - Yeah, it almost to me takes cameras

00:49:44   back to where they were pre-digital, right?

00:49:46   where when you load it, we had a 35 millimeter film camera.

00:49:50   The only things the camera did was let you take pictures.

00:49:54   You would look through a viewfinder and see,

00:49:57   and the camera would have things like a light set.

00:49:59   In the latter years, obviously in the early years,

00:50:01   you had to set all that stuff manually.

00:50:03   But by the latter years of the tail end of the film world,

00:50:08   it would do the exposure.

00:50:10   If you set things to auto, it would set the aperture,

00:50:13   set the exposure time.

00:50:15   And then, but it was all just about letting you take the next photo.

00:50:22   Then you'd push the button and the photo would be taken.

00:50:24   It would be stored on the film and that was it, right?

00:50:28   I would like a digital camera that worked like that.

00:50:30   Do whatever you can to help me get a perfect exposure and focus.

00:50:35   You know, set the focus distance, give me a recommended aperture, give me a recommended

00:50:39   exposure time or let me set any of those variables manually if I choose to.

00:50:44   And then when I hit click, it should just store the photo and then let me do everything

00:50:49   else over a wireless connection to my iPhone.

00:50:53   I would love that for a couple reasons.

00:50:55   One, if you don't have an iPhone, you would just get whatever the QNX CarPlay system is,

00:50:59   you know, whatever the standard software is on the phone.

00:51:02   But if you do have it, you get a better experience and that becomes the same reason you want

00:51:05   to get CarPlay.

00:51:06   You know, this stuff all works better if you happen to have an iPhone.

00:51:09   Yeah, boy, that would be great.

00:51:12   But I do totally think that the WWDC 2014 heralded that sort of future.

00:51:19   I think so too.

00:51:20   And I think we also see, for example, continuity is going to work on the watch because there's

00:51:24   going to be things on the watch.

00:51:25   The watch to me is a total convenience play.

00:51:27   It's for all those thousands of tiny interactions that you have with your phone every day that

00:51:32   don't take a lot of time but are super important, yet you still have to go to your bag or go

00:51:35   to your purse or go to your pocket.

00:51:38   And I can sort of shift those to my watch.

00:51:40   But if something ends up being more important than I thought it was, being able to just

00:51:43   send that right back to my phone and continue it on my phone, Sync is great.

00:51:47   But with Sync, I still have to unlock the phone, go find the app, go to the same place

00:51:51   where I was, scroll through it, try to find it.

00:51:53   But with continuity, I can be looking at something, press a button, and that exact same thing

00:51:57   is just there waiting for me again.

00:51:59   I think that's going to be much more interesting when the watch is in play.

00:52:02   >> Yeah.

00:52:03   And I think a lot of these things are sort of breaking -- it goes back to what I said

00:52:08   earlier about Apple Pay where it's at a from a user's perspective it's outside

00:52:14   the app centric world of using the phone itself it's it's much more about the

00:52:21   real physical world where your phone is just within the Bluetooth and/or Wi-Fi

00:52:28   you know wireless range of whatever terminal you're dealing with whether the

00:52:33   terminal is your watch whether it's your dashboard in your car and you just tap

00:52:38   on the watch and things get started you don't have to wake up your phone you

00:52:41   don't and you definitely don't have to find any particular app like a Fuji app

00:52:47   to get you know to get this to work you're just on your camera and hit a

00:52:51   button on your camera and you know the phone interface just wakes up and starts

00:52:55   you know can read those photos that are right on your phone now the phone

00:52:58   becomes like the Star Destroyer and the watch becomes the shuttlecraft that

00:53:01   moves you in between this big objects

00:53:04   that's pretty good I like that what else from WWDC I guess Yosemite we could yeah

00:53:14   you know and in the summer there wasn't really any news per se it was just you

00:53:19   know betas of iOS and Yosemite not a bad way to just roll into if we're gonna

00:53:25   talk 2014 in hindsight you I mean have to talk Yosemite yeah I mean Dave

00:53:30   Wiska stood an article on macworld right before hand where you're sort of speculating of what Yosemite would end up looking like and I

00:53:36   Think he was really really close. It's like Apple didn't just clone iOS 7 which was a long-running joke

00:53:41   They they sort of took the cues from it the translucency and and the other effects and they made something that was very Mac

00:53:48   And you know, they kept the shadows for example. Yeah our example when Dave and I were

00:53:52   Noodling ideas for Vesper Mac before we saw Yosemite and we thought well

00:53:59   what if they do totally just go all in iOS 7 look and feel and

00:54:03   We the only thing we could come up with was the the iCloud web apps. Yeah, which are

00:54:08   You know you use them with a mouse pointer, and you know I think typically I don't even think they run on an iPad

00:54:16   So I mean you're using it on a Mac

00:54:18   And they have some things like dialog boxes that you know you know it's like

00:54:23   You know how would you do an iOS 7 dialog box with a mouse pointer?

00:54:28   But overall, boy, we looked at that and we were like, "Boy, I hope that's not it."

00:54:34   And it wasn't.

00:54:37   It had to be enough because they did that back to the Mac event and they changed the names of the apps

00:54:41   and they brought over the same look and feel and they really made an effort to get all the people who had iOS devices,

00:54:47   not to make the Mac the same, but to make them comfortable, to make an easy sort of a halo effect transition.

00:54:52   And when you look at Yosemite and you look at continuity, it's just about adding value.

00:54:56   Again, if you have an iPhone or iPad,

00:54:58   you'll have a much better experience with a Mac.

00:55:01   - Yeah, absolutely.

00:55:02   I do think too, and it shows,

00:55:04   and part of it is our perspective

00:55:07   where we get to go to these press events

00:55:09   and talk to some of the people at Apple,

00:55:11   like in the product marketing group.

00:55:13   And there's a palpable sense.

00:55:16   I mean, there's some things that they just never come up.

00:55:19   I mean, nobody really spends a long time talking about the,

00:55:23   we don't even call them that anymore,

00:55:24   but like the iWorks apps, right?

00:55:26   Like pages and numbers and keynote.

00:55:29   They, you know, there hasn't been a lot of enthusiasm

00:55:32   about those apps in recent years.

00:55:35   I'm not saying there's none.

00:55:36   I'm just saying that it's, you know,

00:55:39   I think it shows in the real world

00:55:41   and, you know, in this current state of those apps.

00:55:44   And I think it shows in the enthusiasm

00:55:46   when you talk to people at Apple privately.

00:55:48   But whereas like the Mac overall and Yosemite overall,

00:55:51   like there were people, there's people at Apple

00:55:52   who just still love the Mac.

00:55:54   Like as a whole, it is not like the, you know,

00:55:58   forgotten first child, you know,

00:56:02   brushed aside in favor of the beloved, you know, iOS,

00:56:07   you know.

00:56:08   - I wonder if that has anything to do with the Mac,

00:56:11   like Yosemite being very firmly in Federighi's org,

00:56:13   but things like iWork and iTunes all being projects

00:56:16   that are run by, in Q's org, you know,

00:56:18   almost like a totally secondary

00:56:19   software development system.

00:56:21   - I do wonder about that.

00:56:23   And I don't know if it's because it's any way to

00:56:28   to slag at EQ, but almost that he's got so much on his plate

00:56:32   that how could it get any more of his attention,

00:56:35   you know, with how much that he's got on his plate.

00:56:38   - And you don't have the Federica,

00:56:40   like the one guy who's in charge of software engineering

00:56:42   isn't in charge of those bits of software engineering.

00:56:44   - But as a whole, I, you know, this year,

00:56:47   I think that the people I've spoken to at Apple

00:56:51   were more excited about Yosemite and what's new on the Mac than iOS 8. And you

00:56:55   know and a lot of it is hard to separate because so much of what's new about both

00:56:59   iOS 8 and Yosemite is the continuity stuff which ties them together and there

00:57:03   is no one without the other. That was one of the most impressive things to me

00:57:07   because the famously iOS and OS X used to be run separately and there was a big

00:57:12   rework but not only that it's it's it filtered down so instead of having

00:57:16   someone in charge of Yosemite and someone in charge of iOS the person who

00:57:19   was in charge of extensibility,

00:57:21   or at least the engineering program manager

00:57:24   was in charge of extensibility for iOS and OS X,

00:57:27   was in charge of continuity for iOS and iOS X.

00:57:30   And even when it would have been easier

00:57:31   to do them separately or do them in different ways,

00:57:33   they made sure that they were done in the same way,

00:57:35   so developers had just one way

00:57:36   to target them on both systems.

00:57:38   And that might be a subtle change,

00:57:39   but I think that's a really profound change

00:57:41   based on how Apple used to be run.

00:57:43   - Yeah, and it's a recurring theme

00:57:47   since he left the company, but you know with forestall and again, I overall I'm a big fan of forestall and I think

00:57:54   You know for Scott forestall is a huge reason that the iPhone was a hit product

00:58:01   I was as good as it was I think he is a huge reason that the App Store

00:58:05   Exists and that it's as popular as it is problems aside and we can get into that because there's been a lot of recent

00:58:12   you know problems with the App Store, but on the whole, you know, it's

00:58:17   you know a success and you know at a time when in

00:58:21   2007 when the first iPhone came out and there wasn't any

00:58:24   Third-party software at all and there were questions about whether there ever would be and then even when it was announced

00:58:31   Well house how strict are they gonna keep this?

00:58:33   How much is it gonna be a handful of apps that Apple vets and how much is it gonna be?

00:58:38   You know, are they gonna allow tens of thousands hundreds thousands of apps?

00:58:42   I think all of that is thanks to forest all or at least by these partly thanks to forest all absolutely

00:58:48   But on the other hand, I don't think continuity happens

00:58:51   All in one fell swoop in 2014 if forest all is still running iOS as his own fiefdom because the way he ran it was

00:58:59   secretly

00:59:02   Even when it wasn't new, you know even you know, you know 20

00:59:06   2012 I guess when he

00:59:09   Got pushed out. Mm-hmm

00:59:11   You know.

00:59:12   Yeah, I think he was a phenomenal partner for Steve Jobs.

00:59:15   I mean you hear stories about when he was at Apple, he knew which of the three studded

00:59:21   leather textures Steve would pick.

00:59:23   And when he wasn't there, the designers just kept hearing no and no and no over and over

00:59:27   again.

00:59:28   And he was just so good at working with Steve Jobs.

00:59:30   But then, you know, he faced an Apple without Steve Jobs.

00:59:32   And it's possible that he was the best person in the world to birth the iPhone but not the

00:59:36   best person to get it through the awkward teenage years.

00:59:39   We'll see that with the watch now because Kevin Lynch runs watch software at Apple.

00:59:42   It's not in Craig Federighi's org.

00:59:44   But that's sort of what you have to do when you're creating something new.

00:59:46   You have to give it that sort of independent space to come alive and then you integrate

00:59:50   it back again over time.

00:59:51   Right.

00:59:52   But even with Lynch and that's a good open question as to in terms of what to look for

00:59:57   in 2015.

00:59:59   How good is their initial watch software going to be?

01:00:05   it's fair or not, you know, how good the initial like when we get our first Apple watch 1.0

01:00:11   in quote early 2015. We're gonna we're all going to form pretty firm opinions of Kevin

01:00:20   Lynch as an Apple product manager, right off the bat. But Lynch was hired into an Apple

01:00:27   where, you know, he could be told point blank and I'm sure was this is how we work now we

01:00:33   collaborate you know and I think that's why you see you know that you know

01:00:36   Schiller's already wearing an Apple watch, Eddy Q's wearing an Apple watch,

01:00:40   Federighi is wearing an Apple watch, you know that they're not locked out of that

01:00:44   in the way that I think a lot of people were with the iPhone before it came out.

01:00:49   And the other thing that I mean I've heard really good things about Kevin

01:00:53   Lynch's work at Apple like he sounds like he's doing a great job but also

01:00:56   while the watch stuff is separate for example like I don't know this for a

01:01:01   Fact but it sounds to me like messages is not being like if you're working on watch messages

01:01:05   You're not allowed to talk to the guy working on iOS or Mac messages

01:01:08   It sounds like that's not the case that the messages group, you know spans across from that which is what you want

01:01:12   Because otherwise it's gonna create a broken experience

01:01:14   Yeah, I do. I think that's absolutely the case where where he you know, it might be separate from

01:01:20   Federighi's stuff but in a sense it's not because it's Federighi isn't trusted with it or he's not part of it

01:01:26   But that he's already got enough on this plate and they need this is such a big undertaking that it needs

01:01:31   Its own point person and team but they're not I think the difference is maybe maybe the word is fiefdom

01:01:37   You know that iOS was run by Scott for stall as his own fiefdom within the company and that's not the case with the watch

01:01:44   And I was talking to Brad Ellis about this last week

01:01:47   But you look at the design cues of the watch and you start to imagine

01:01:50   It's not just a copy of iOS 7 or a copy of Yosemite

01:01:53   It is it is being given the room to be its own thing sort of establish its own identity as well

01:01:57   Yeah, I almost get the sense that it if there's anything that holds up as an analogy

01:02:01   It's almost like the watch OS is to iOS what iOS?

01:02:06   Was to Mac OS yeah, you know that yes, we're not throwing everything out the kernel

01:02:13   It might be the exact same kernel. There's there it might be a UI kit

01:02:17   That's doing drawing it runs from port like the iPhone runs from port right

01:02:24   but that it's it's just about based, you know using the technology that makes sense to reuse but but

01:02:31   Stripping it down to a level that's appropriate for this new dramatically

01:02:37   Lesser form factor. Yeah, but the strategic

01:02:40   aspects of how the software runs

01:02:44   Couldn't be more different from the original iPhone where the original iPhone

01:02:51   only had this tangential relationship with your Mac, which was

01:02:55   connect a 30 pin connector and a USB cord to the two and

01:03:00   Hit them, you know sync and wait and

01:03:05   Have you know, I still think it's almost seems prehistoric. I can't believe it's only seven years ago

01:03:11   But that's the only way you've got calendar events on your phone or back to your Mac if you created the event on your phone

01:03:18   It's the only way you could sync calendar events, the only way you could sync contacts.

01:03:24   It's crazy that you only had to do all that tethered.

01:03:26   But then once you untethered, your phone was a completely, iPhone was a completely independent

01:03:32   device that had to do everything.

01:03:35   Any kind of computation was done on the CPU on the phone.

01:03:38   All of the drawing was done on the GPU on the phone.

01:03:41   And the watch, at least for third party software, is largely just a projected screen where it's

01:03:47   doing the least work possible. It's almost like the web app solution for the

01:03:53   original iPhone where when you no longer connected to the internet nothing can

01:03:56   update when you're not when your phone is no longer in vicinity nothing can

01:03:58   update. Right yeah absolutely. Let's take a break and we'll come back and talk

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01:07:40   slash the talk show do you still have any machines that are running Mavericks

01:07:47   Renee I don't I waited a year to upgrade from

01:07:50   Mountain Lion to Mavericks on my podcast machine and I think I lasted a month before putting a somebody on it. I

01:07:56   Still have the the air that I used to record these shows

01:08:02   Like I'm recording right now using my my old MacBook Air still runs the latest version of Mavericks and it's funny

01:08:10   how

01:08:13   It feels to me like it's years old. Yeah, like I can't I was just thinking before we started recording and thinking about the you know

01:08:19   You're all I was like, I wonder how long I how long how how to date am I and then I realized I'm really only like

01:08:23   Still only like two months how to date

01:08:26   But it looks ancient to my eyes just the wallpaper when you see the Mavericks wallpaper. It feels like a bygone era

01:08:32   Yeah, I think so. But it's there to me. It's the fonts, you know and the the heaviness of the buttons

01:08:40   It's yeah, it's it's a much heavier more dour experience and that's probably why I upgraded

01:08:45   I just I would look at it when I podcast and it would just look wrong to me

01:08:48   And it was a visuals. I think more than anything else that encouraged me to upgrade. Yeah, I think I over the holiday break

01:08:54   I'm gonna upgrade this machine to it. I can't think of a good reason to keep one around anymore either. There's nothing you know

01:09:01   It's really just out of laziness and the fact that I don't use this machine for much anymore

01:09:06   I just happens to be all set up with the you know

01:09:10   Software I used to record the shows and so it's sort of like and if it ain't broke don't

01:09:14   Fix it

01:09:16   Situation but it just staring at it just looks ugly and I got the retina 5k iMac after the event

01:09:23   I just couldn't on unsee it and you know that shipped with

01:09:26   a ship with

01:09:29   Yo, somebody yeah, and I was just all in yeah

01:09:33   I've also grown to be completely I don't I wouldn't quite say in love, but I'm completely accustomed to the

01:09:41   system version of Helvetica Noya as the system font

01:09:45   It's it looks so good on a retina

01:09:49   We were arguing the other day whether it you would prefer to have something like San Francisco or the mythical Apple songs

01:09:53   If they ever shipped it, but they they did a really great job of putting Helvetica Noya on on the Mac

01:09:59   Do you have any idea whether San Francisco is Apple sand? I've heard that it isn't

01:10:03   I don't know if that's true or not because I haven't heard it from a lot of people but I heard an offhand comment that it

01:10:07   Wasn't I wouldn't be surprised if it's not but I have no no idea

01:10:11   Like the little birdies that told me about Apple Sands and the little birdies that told me about San Francisco

01:10:15   Or they really tell me about it

01:10:18   They didn't know about it in advance, but uh, but that told me that internally they were calling it din vetica

01:10:22   But nobody's told me whether they're one in the same and I can't help but think that they're not the same

01:10:28   I mean

01:10:29   It's hard to interpret it because it's almost like reading smoke signals and it could just mean that this an optimized version

01:10:33   version of Apple songs for the watch and that's why they're considered different

01:10:35   but it struck me that they were different yeah the thing I've found

01:10:39   playing with the San Francisco is that it really only looks good very very

01:10:43   small yeah I mean and from my hands-on time you know months ago at the Apple

01:10:49   watch event I thought it looked fantastic up close like just really

01:10:53   really look good playing with it on my Mac now that we have the SDK it doesn't

01:10:59   really look good to me at the sizes that I use fonts on the Mac.

01:11:03   Yeah, it's not optimized.

01:11:04   Right.

01:11:05   And I tried the, I think I mentioned this a few shows ago, but I tried, there's like

01:11:09   a GitHub thing with hacked versions of San Francisco that have metadata set that make

01:11:15   it look like they tell the system it's the system font.

01:11:18   And if you put them, and I don't recommend anybody try this because it's hacking with

01:11:23   your system, you're on your own.

01:11:24   But more or less what you do is you put these hacked versions, and also it's like a copyright

01:11:28   violation and a direct violation of the terms of the SDK download that you're not allowed

01:11:35   to diddle with the San Francisco font and you're expressly not allowed to use it for

01:11:38   anything other than developing watch kit apps.

01:11:42   But what you could do is go to find this project on GitHub, download these versions of the

01:11:47   fonts, which are different from Apple's versions.

01:11:49   There's some kind of metadata that's set that tells the system, "Hey, this is the system

01:11:52   font."

01:11:53   them in at slash library or yeah slash library fonts slash library slash fonts

01:12:02   and you can't put them in your user font file not you you know users your name

01:12:09   library fonts because the system won't look there for system fonts the system

01:12:14   looks first in slash system library fonts and that's your Helvetica system

01:12:19   font is still there you're not replacing it you're not deleting it you're not

01:12:22   renaming it or not moving it. But then the system will look in slash library fonts and

01:12:27   if it finds another system font there, it will use that one instead. So you just put

01:12:30   these font files there, log out, log back in and Yosemite will draw as with the system

01:12:37   font it will use San Francisco. So I tried it just to see what it was like and it just

01:12:45   doesn't work. It's not that it doesn't work like it's broken and it's a technical failure.

01:12:52   Aesthetically, it's just kind of not right

01:12:55   Which is interesting because I didn't think I'd like Helvetica on the Mac as much as I did but then

01:12:59   After the Apple TV update which came much after you know much after WBC and now I'm seeing Helvetica on my Apple TV

01:13:06   That is much more every time I see it. I get a little reaction to it. Yeah

01:13:10   And it feels it's somehow crazy to me how Apple has made it a font that is available to everyone anywhere

01:13:17   Feel like they own it

01:13:20   Yeah, and it just when they use it. It's it's such an established font

01:13:24   It's such a classic and yet it feels so modern in the way that they're using it. Yeah

01:13:27   But I don't think at San Francisco to me. It's it's completely designed

01:13:32   I think for the watch and it's meant to be used at watch like sizes which are physically very very small

01:13:39   Yeah, like the biggest you're ever gonna see text on your Apple watch is a pretty small size

01:13:43   It's it's sort of in context

01:13:46   I know you've spoken with us on previous shows with the vibrancy and you know some people turn it off

01:13:50   But I've even gotten used to that

01:13:52   I've gotten used to seeing areas of red or black or or things and it it just I

01:13:56   Don't buy the argument that it brings a desktop through but it does sort of make the whole system seem more alive

01:14:02   Yeah, but I was no doubt that like Syracuse has mentioned several times

01:14:06   There's no doubt that that's gonna get toned down. Yeah next year and a year after you know that they start out with

01:14:11   taking an idea to the

01:14:14   Maximal level and then over the years dial it back to where it should be but there they you know

01:14:19   Apple is it as a company tends to err on the side of taking an idea too far than taking not taking it far enough

01:14:26   And it's also they're very for a giant company

01:14:29   They've they have a lot of respect for the singular designer vision like the person who designed

01:14:33   Somebody had a lot of ideas and those ideas not all of them made it through but a lot of them did in a lot

01:14:37   Of companies it would have fallen to design by committee very quickly. Yeah

01:14:41   So I think overall Yosemite has been a pretty pretty strong success

01:14:49   Yeah, I agree completely and for all the bugs that iOS 8 had and you know hit so many people

01:14:55   I think I think Yosemite has been pretty stable and and you know deserves applause right from the get-go for

01:15:02   for being pretty

01:15:04   Trouble-free if you were an early adopter

01:15:06   They had a couple Wi-Fi patch and Wi-Fi and Bluetooth seemed to be something that just affects some percentage of people every time

01:15:12   They had some security things even today. They patched it was yesterday. They're patching security now faster than they've ever done before

01:15:19   Yeah, it's it's really a new age in at least a delivery of Mac software

01:15:23   Yeah today as we record we're recording on December 23rd, and it might have rolled out

01:15:29   I think I rolled out last night at least on us time

01:15:32   But within the 24 hours that we're recording as we speak

01:15:35   There was a bug fix that Apple rolled out that for the first time ever they pushed to

01:15:41   At least me of 70, I don't know if Mavericks got the push

01:15:45   But if you're running Yosemite, I got the notification like when I logged in this morning

01:15:50   It just said a security update was applied. Yeah, and that's it. It's like, you know

01:15:55   And I you know, it's a lot of pressure for them because if they ever pushed one of those that did break things

01:16:01   it's there it's gonna be you know quite a scandal yeah I mean they're paying

01:16:08   close attention to that stuff now but it's sort of we complained that they

01:16:10   weren't being fast enough for security updates and a certain point they just

01:16:13   you know pick up the pace yeah and I'd you know the the thanks for that the

01:16:18   applause for that is never as loud as the criticism beforehand no no no it

01:16:24   does seem like they're getting faster I can't help but think that with the

01:16:27   Bluetooth and Wi-Fi that it must it must just be that the matrix of how many

01:16:34   different Wi-Fi chipsets there are in all the supported Macs that run Yosemite

01:16:39   multiplied by all the various chipsets in the Wi-Fi routers out in the real

01:16:45   world is just it it's just a testing nightmare like you know you know it's

01:16:53   almost we're almost lucky that it works at all because it just happens over

01:16:56   and over and over again. I just run all Apple stuff and I've never had a Wi-Fi

01:17:00   or Bluetooth problem but I imagine when you like you say if you have every

01:17:02   single vendor in there and every single variant you're gonna you're gonna hit

01:17:05   whatever bugs are in both those stacks fairly often. Yeah I have an Apple router

01:17:10   downstairs I think it's the latest whatever extreme I don't know what they

01:17:14   call it anymore but the one that's tall and have for years and I've never been

01:17:20   hit with those problems either because I'm surely you know every single

01:17:23   Standard Apple Wi-Fi chipset in a Mac does get tested against Apple's own routers

01:17:29   Yeah, I think they're first in line, right

01:17:32   And I think that max or I mean you see bugs with with iOS and Wi-Fi, too

01:17:39   But I do think it seems to hit the Mac more and I can't help

01:17:41   But think it's because the Mac hardware is not as unified as iOS hardware

01:17:45   I think iPad air 2 is the first iPad where we didn't see a bunch of people complaining about Wi-Fi

01:17:49   As soon as it launched

01:17:52   Yeah, I get the feeling that like supporting Wi-Fi at the driver level is you know sort of like supporting

01:17:58   I'm app when you're writing a mail client

01:18:00   Which it meaning that every single I map server has like a different interpretation of the I map spec at some level. Yeah

01:18:08   Like there's no way to just write a generic I map client every I map client that it gains any popularity because it hasn't you know

01:18:17   It's actually useful

01:18:19   Effectively as you know

01:18:21   you know, I'm

01:18:22   Server by server list of exceptions and and stuff like that which was the big complaint about mail and Mavericks especially with Gmail's

01:18:29   Eccentric to use the polite word. I'm app implementation and now with Yosemite. You don't hear that very much anymore either

01:18:35   No, you don't I think it's I think they've cleaned that up pretty well. Yeah

01:18:39   Where are we at in a calendar year? I think we're heading towards the iPhone 6 and 6 plus event. Yeah

01:18:47   Which was also the debut of the watch. Yeah

01:18:50   Big and bigger and then small right and Apple pay

01:18:55   Yeah, and in the demo area, I mean they had the iPhones laid out. They had the iPads

01:19:00   They had the Apple watch laid out and then they had a whole area where you could go and see

01:19:04   Apple pay both in the app and at a simulated

01:19:07   checkout station

01:19:10   Yeah, and I do think that's a good example of how

01:19:14   How difficult this you know and broads broke strokes how difficult Apple and you know anybody else who's in the industry?

01:19:22   But how it's not a month to month year to year game. It's a decade-long game because even with Apple pay

01:19:30   You know it's intertwined with the iPhone 6 because it's the iPhone 6 and 6 plus

01:19:36   They're the only phones that work with Apple pay at least at retail terminals

01:19:40   and

01:19:43   You know you had to have touch ID first so that was a year that goes back a year ago to the iPhone 5s

01:19:49   You had to have it and it had to work really well, so that starts a year ago now this year

01:19:56   you've got the two new phones that have NFC built in and

01:19:59   The rollout in the retail stores of the terminals you know that accept it

01:20:08   But you're still talking about a service that only works two months in for people who've bought a brand new

01:20:14   Top of the line iPhone within the last two months right like the real the real Apple play is

01:20:20   Two three years ago when 85% of active iPhone users are using something iPhone 6 or newer

01:20:27   It's it shows the patience that Apple has for some things and it shows how for example

01:20:32   NFC to a lot of their competitors was just a chipset like they would just throw it in there

01:20:36   They didn't really care what you did with it.

01:20:37   Different manufacturers would do different things.

01:20:40   Where Apple, there's no such thing as a chip set.

01:20:41   It's a feature set.

01:20:42   And they experimented with NFC.

01:20:44   There were prototypes with NFC for years

01:20:46   and they just never shipped it

01:20:46   'cause they didn't have a feature set that needed it.

01:20:48   Not that it was a curiosity and might be a benefit,

01:20:51   but actually needed it as a core technology in the phone.

01:20:54   And when they did, they put NFC in and they shipped it.

01:20:56   And it took until iPhone 6 for that to happen.

01:20:59   But like you said, they had to have Passbook,

01:21:01   they had to have Touch ID,

01:21:02   they'd have all these things in place.

01:21:04   And then when it made sense as a product, it gets shipped.

01:21:06   - Yeah, I've heard about NFC for iPhone,

01:21:09   I think as far back as 2009,

01:21:12   which was the year that the 3GS came out.

01:21:15   And that, I'm trying to think when that was

01:21:17   that I heard that.

01:21:18   I mean, it wouldn't have been right before,

01:21:21   it would have been like seven or eight months before

01:21:24   that it was a maybe for the next iPhone.

01:21:27   And clearly, obviously it did not happen.

01:21:30   And I think ultimately, why not?

01:21:33   And then again, it was a recurring thing.

01:21:35   Like 2009, maybe 2010, definitely maybe

01:21:38   Apple is very, very interested in NFC.

01:21:40   So that would have been the iPhone 4, wasn't there.

01:21:45   And I think it was always,

01:21:46   is that there was no story behind it, right?

01:21:49   There's no, how is this actually gonna be useful

01:21:52   to people in the real world?

01:21:55   - Absolutely, I mean, they would prototype it.

01:21:57   Apple prototypes almost anything

01:21:59   that you can find a blog post about

01:22:00   that makes even the slightest logical sense.

01:22:02   Apple will have prototyped it.

01:22:04   Like when they say Macs make no sense for multi-touch,

01:22:06   it's not because they're just daydreaming

01:22:08   or saying it for the sake of saying it.

01:22:09   It's because they built it,

01:22:10   they spent a lot of time trying it

01:22:12   and they decided it wasn't an experience they wanna ship.

01:22:14   And in one day, maybe it will be.

01:22:16   And with NFC, it was in later stage prototypes

01:22:18   for different phones and they're trying things

01:22:20   and they're, like you said, no story, so it didn't ship.

01:22:22   And then as soon as they had a really compelling story,

01:22:24   which was Apple Pay, that's in every phone we have now.

01:22:27   - Yeah, so tying it in, the iPhone 6 announcement

01:22:31   with this week's news.

01:22:33   There's another rumor that came out of Asia,

01:22:36   some analyst that Apple is considering

01:22:39   a new four-inch iPhone for next year.

01:22:44   Do you see that?

01:22:46   - Yep.

01:22:47   - I think MacRumors had it.

01:22:47   I think the name the guy came up with it was totally stupid.

01:22:51   He called it the iPhone 6S Mini.

01:22:55   - Yeah.

01:22:56   They just call it the 6S minus.

01:22:58   - I think the name would be,

01:22:59   - Clearly it would be the iPhone 6C, right?

01:23:01   - Yep.

01:23:02   - I think it almost certainly would be the iPhone 6C

01:23:05   and if not C, then Air maybe.

01:23:08   - It's gotta be 6S minus 6S and 6S Plus.

01:23:12   Use them, just ride that math analogy into the ground.

01:23:17   - Minus.

01:23:18   And they'd actually spell it out like M-I-N-U-S.

01:23:21   - I think, again, I'm almost, you know,

01:23:23   I can't say I'm positive,

01:23:24   but I think it's very likely

01:23:25   that Apple's prototyping four inch iPhones

01:23:26   'cause they prototype tons of different sizes.

01:23:29   What was interesting to me is I heard you say that

01:23:30   on a previous show, it might've been two episodes ago

01:23:32   or three episodes ago.

01:23:33   And I was curious what Android people thought of that

01:23:36   'cause their phones, I mean, their version of the HTC One Mini

01:23:39   was I think five inches or something.

01:23:42   And so I asked them, is there a demand

01:23:44   for four-inch Android phones?

01:23:45   I heard crickets.

01:23:46   People said, "No, 4.7 is the smallest we'd ever want."

01:23:50   And to me, that doesn't mean Apple should make one.

01:23:52   That means there's probably a segment of the market

01:23:54   is totally underserved by the volume vendors and that there is opportunity

01:23:58   for people who are distinguished or have very specific tastes and would enjoy

01:24:02   iOS at that size. Yeah, the thing that makes and this isn't based on this guy's

01:24:07   reporting this is just my I close my eyes and think about the way Apple

01:24:10   thinks and the way Apple has acted over the last seven years and I think it's

01:24:15   probably true but I also think that calling it the 6c whether they call it

01:24:20   that or not tells you exactly what it's going to be is I think it's going to be

01:24:23   an A8, you know, this year's A8 and a camera like this year's camera, it's, you know, going

01:24:35   to be effectively an iPhone 6 shrunk to 4 inches. Whereas the iPhone 6s and 6s plus,

01:24:42   if they call them that, will get the A9 and they'll get a better camera and other, you

01:24:48   whatever the 2015 technical improvements are.

01:24:52   So that you'll be able to buy a four-inch iPhone next year, and you'll have Touch ID,

01:24:58   and you'll have Apple Pay, and you'll have an A8, and you'll have a camera like the one

01:25:03   we have today.

01:25:04   But if you want the top of the line, if you want the newest, the latest, and greatest

01:25:07   camera, if you want the latest and greatest system on a chip, you're still going to have

01:25:12   to go 4.7 or 5.5.

01:25:16   It makes a lot of sense for the same reasons, because the iPhone 5C was always called the

01:25:21   cheap iPhone and Apple never makes cheap products, but they wanted to make a popular iPhone.

01:25:25   They wanted something that would sit on the shelves, not like a blockbuster movie, but

01:25:28   like a TV show that people could buy anytime.

01:25:31   But it also let them shove that down to the bottom of the line much faster.

01:25:34   They wouldn't have to leave an iPhone 5 there.

01:25:36   And the same logic makes sense for an iPhone 6C to be able to move that down the product

01:25:41   line faster and make Apple Pay more accessible to more people and to have it in more parts

01:25:45   of their product line up.

01:25:46   Yeah, and I think the other thing that they don't want is that third pricing tier that

01:25:52   starts it.

01:25:53   Because that's the other thing.

01:25:54   If you do want a new four inch phone next year, if I'm right, then it's going to be

01:25:59   the 2014 technical stuff, the A8 and the camera, etc.

01:26:03   The upside will be that you'll save money because I think it'll start at $99 on a contract

01:26:08   and if it's off contract, it'll be $100 less than the 6S.

01:26:12   Success. Yeah, you have 4.7 at the 199 mark the 4-inch just based on human behavior has to be cheaper

01:26:20   Yeah

01:26:20   The thing that I think they wanted to get away from is having that $99 tier and I'm speaking in the subsidized terms

01:26:27   But the $99 tier look virtually identical to the 199 tier. Yeah, right

01:26:35   That's what the six or the five see did is they you know, it had exactly the same

01:26:41   tech specs

01:26:43   Almost to a T as the iPhone 5 but it looked different and some people, you know, obviously some people thought it looked better

01:26:50   I know people who bought it because they wanted a colorful phone

01:26:53   But it's still even if that's the case then you know good for you. You saved a hundred bucks

01:26:57   but I don't think Apple liked it where up until the 5c was introduced the the

01:27:04   $99 option looked I'd or nearly identical, you know

01:27:08   There were obviously some certain tells that you could tell an iPhone 4 from 4s

01:27:13   you know the antenna bands were it's certainly different at slightly different points and

01:27:17   earlier that when they first started keeping the year old phone around the 3g and the 3gs you could tell them apart because the eye

01:27:25   The word iPhone on the back was written. Yes shiny letters instead of flat letters

01:27:30   Well people want to show they have the new one right as part of the esteem of having the new iPhone, right?

01:27:34   No, I totally think so, you know, and it's an Apple wants to enable that so that's why I think that you know

01:27:41   I don't know if I don't know if an iPhone

01:27:43   6 C would be plastic like the 5c like I wouldn't be surprised if it's metal or

01:27:51   In rounded, you know with rounded corners like the 6s and 6 plus but just the size of it would tell you that it's you

01:27:58   Know the lesser model. Yeah, it was funny with the iPhone 5 even though Apple rebuilt it from the Adams on up

01:28:04   It was boring, but the minute they made it in gold, you know people first made fun of it

01:28:07   And then everyone complained they couldn't get one

01:28:09   Did you you know, yeah, it's still hard to get and

01:28:15   iPhones yeah, like there's there's still I didn't know that until I was listening to ATP and heard

01:28:21   Syracuse are talking about it

01:28:24   It's that yeah supply still hasn't caught up with demand

01:28:27   Milton has been trying to get them for weeks and I think he had to finally call in favors to try to get them shipped

01:28:33   to them.

01:28:34   That makes me laugh.

01:28:36   Well, it's hilarious because people who leave Apple have no idea how to get a, like how

01:28:39   normal people get their phones.

01:28:40   Like they just, they've never had to deal with carriers or with retail stores or, and

01:28:44   it sounds like some of them, you know, as much as I love them, they're just a little

01:28:46   inadequate and equipped to deal with the horrors of retail shopping.

01:28:50   Yeah, let me see here.

01:28:54   If I get a 6 and I get it in space gray, I get it on Verizon.

01:29:01   If I want, well it looks like I can get 128 gigs is available 3 to 5 business days.

01:29:13   I think the 6 Plus is still harder than the 6.

01:29:16   Yeah.

01:29:17   But they're starting to fall into more balance.

01:29:18   Which is crazy.

01:29:19   I mean as much as people complain about the iPhone, you still can't get them.

01:29:23   Get them that there's their come put their supply constraint for months after launch. Yeah

01:29:27   Just crazy

01:29:30   And I think that's you know, but I still think that's pretty interesting that they're at a point where they still don't catch up in

01:29:36   Supply demand until after the holiday. Yeah and year after year - it's not a diminishing thing

01:29:43   They're making more and more money off the iPhone. Yeah

01:29:46   What's left? I guess we have the last event of the year, which would be the iPad air

01:29:52   - yes and Yosemite L and the retina iMac. Yeah

01:29:56   Retina iMac is only one it really sticks out to me. I still I love the iPad air - I still think I think it's an

01:30:02   amazing device, but it's it's a refinement of the iPad air whereas the

01:30:07   The retina 5k Mac is to me like a new a new era the two things that are similar to me about those devices

01:30:15   Are that with the iPad air - Apple started making their own GPUs, you know, like an antech first thought it was a six core

01:30:22   imagination chip and they later realized that it was an eight core one which was

01:30:27   totally theoretical until Apple made it. It wasn't just a design they actually

01:30:31   took the architecture and built their own custom GPU and they've been doing

01:30:34   CPUs for a couple generations like they had Swift and they had Cyclone now they

01:30:37   have Cyclone 2 but now they're doing the entire chip almost is in-house at Apple

01:30:43   and then you look at the iMac and they made the timing controller for that

01:30:48   They made 5k possible in that computer when Intel has not yet shipped

01:30:51   Skylake or Thunderbolt 3 or anything so they are there again. They're making more and more of the internals of their machines

01:30:58   Yeah, and that's interesting to me that they've done it for the iMac because they've they've they've had this economy of scale with iOS

01:31:06   devices because even as they've expanded the lineups and they've gone out of two iPhone sizes and

01:31:12   you know, there's two iPad sizes and

01:31:16   There are cellular and non-cellular versions of the iPads, but for the most part it's still in terms of what's actually new this year

01:31:23   It's a very limited number of SKUs

01:31:27   Right and and they share a lot of stuff, you know that the iPhone 6 and 6 plus

01:31:32   Are really very very there's a slight difference in the camera where the the 6 plus camera has optical image stabilization

01:31:40   So that's a different part, but it's the same a8 CPU

01:31:44   And it's you know, just the stuff that has to be different. It's different, you know different display

01:31:49   Because it's a different size and it's different pixels

01:31:53   But that they've you know

01:31:57   They had this great economy of scale which lets them do these things like you're saying like build their own systems on a chip

01:32:02   And not share it with the rest of the you know, have these things that aren't available to anybody else in the industry

01:32:07   It's interesting to me that they've done it with the iMac too, which is clearly lower volume. I mean without question

01:32:14   I mean, I think all IMAX together are just dropping the bucket volume wise compared to iPad or

01:32:20   any iPhone or iPad model, but the retina one in particular existing only at the top of the

01:32:27   Product what do you call it the product the pyramid? Yeah the pyramid, right?

01:32:34   It's only the best option the good and better ones are still non retina because the retina display

01:32:41   You know, it's it's this weird combination where it's you know in one sense

01:32:45   It's remarkably inexpensive because famously like Dell has a 5k display didn't they come out with a 5k display

01:32:51   They yeah, they came out with a month or so ago, but it requires two

01:32:54   Displayport connections, but it costs as much it costs as much or more as the whole I'm yes, right

01:33:00   So Dell came out with a 5k display

01:33:02   We're just the display and forget about whether you need how you're gonna actually run it and that you need to display ports and all

01:33:07   That how are you gonna get graphics cards? How are you gonna get how's everything gonna work?

01:33:10   Just forget about it. Just the display itself costs as much as the whole iMac which includes a pretty killer computer. Yeah, and

01:33:18   The crazy thing is Apple if you asked me for you know, ten years ago, you know, Apple's not a chip fab

01:33:24   They're not an Intel. They're not a TMCH

01:33:25   They're not any one of these companies and they got to 64-bit first and now they're they're making chips that are just

01:33:30   Pushing the industry forward and they're not a peripheral maker

01:33:33   But they're with the original IPS iMac and now with the 5k iMac they're making displays

01:33:38   That's just pushing the industry forward and the the iPad air 2 is so overpowered that you could arguably say, you know guys relax

01:33:45   Stop but instead of that apples just saying run get as far ahead as fast as you can and just keep going just push

01:33:51   The state of this technology because it will filter down and we will figure out a way to make all this stuff super

01:33:55   Super important and to do things that nobody else can do. Yeah, and that's it's turning the

01:34:02   Industries model on its head where from the outset from the very beginning of personal computing

01:34:09   Through recently the model was that it's you know this commodity market where you buy

01:34:16   CPUs from Intel you buy graphics cards from Nvidia or you know whoever else

01:34:24   Radion I guess it you know, but there'd be graphics companies. There'd be memory makers, you know, there'd be

01:34:32   hard drive makers and you would just put all the you know if you wanted to make a computer you'd pick and choose you get the

01:34:38   Salad bar, right? I guess yeah, it's totally like a salad bar

01:34:41   But everybody else could get them too and you could make deals and depending on your volume

01:34:46   I'm sure you know Dell and HP as higher volume vendors would have some sort of leverage in priority

01:34:52   Versus you know a smaller

01:34:55   by market share PC maker, you know, but

01:34:59   It was that the what you were possible. What was possible to do though was

01:35:05   limited by these

01:35:07   Specialists, so if you wanted to drive a 5k display

01:35:11   You were limited unless you could get somebody out

01:35:16   You know that less the state-of-the-art in the graphics industry was a graphics card that could push that many

01:35:21   pixels and a connector

01:35:24   That could carry them

01:35:27   Whereas Apple has started turning things like that on its head and it doesn't matter if the industry can't do it yet the state-of-the-art in

01:35:34   the industry they just made their own and

01:35:36   Made it work. Yeah, and it's not available to anybody else

01:35:40   That's the in like you said like to do things that other people can't do

01:35:45   What goes back to your only Apple piece from WVDC?

01:35:49   Yeah, I think it's you know, probably the best piece I wrote this year

01:35:53   I think it's the only one that or at least the one that has the most staying value

01:35:57   Even lo these many months later. I think it's it's if anything I underplayed it

01:36:01   Yeah, and I think it's true and I think when we like next year we already mentioned

01:36:04   Maybe there's a bigger iPad but maybe there's software and services that go along with that and having two gigs and having

01:36:10   An octa core GPU makes a lot more sense, you know next year than it makes this year

01:36:14   But it allows people who buy the brand new iPad air this year to not feel left behind when the newer devices or newer software ships

01:36:21   Mm-hmm. I and I still can't I keep thinking about 64-bit for mobile and you know

01:36:26   Nobody else has it yet. I mean there's some chips that are possible of it out for Android

01:36:31   But it certainly is far from mainstream

01:36:33   Yeah

01:36:33   the Nexus 9 I think ship with it just because they they decided they had to have they couldn't wait any longer to

01:36:38   Get 64-bit out the door, but it's not in it's not arm. It's Intel right? It's the Nexus 9 I think is

01:36:44   X 84 it's 86. I think no, I think it's Qualcomm, but I'd have to double-check. I don't know what either way though

01:36:52   It certainly isn't like a mainstream thing

01:36:54   But to me it's 64-bit came out and people complained. Oh, there's no four gigabytes of memory

01:36:58   Apple's just wasting it but it turns out that the ARM v8

01:37:00   Instruction set was so much better and the security that they could use enabled all the touch ID stuff

01:37:06   There was just so many other things about building that chipset that 64-bit was almost a bonus for them the same way three cores on

01:37:12   The iPhone 6 is almost a bonus and eight cores on the eye on the iPad air - they're doing it because they can there's no

01:37:17   Reason not to so why shouldn't we do it?

01:37:20   Right. It just goes hand in hand with the new instruction set which is really where the performance wins come from

01:37:25   Not the mat not any sort of magical going from 32 to 64 on any hypothetical platform

01:37:31   Magically makes things better. It wasn't like that. It was a very very practical, you know arm

01:37:37   The new arm instruction set is way better. It gets rid of all sorts of legacy cruft

01:37:42   You know that dates back to the early days of arm when it was powering things like the Newton

01:37:48   and Palm pilots and stuff like that.

01:37:51   - And way more registers, it's just so many benefits.

01:37:54   - Right, and everything that the computer engineers

01:37:57   have learned since then about how to make efficient

01:38:00   instruction sets for computers

01:38:03   and what is it that a modern compiler wants to see

01:38:08   in an instruction set to generate efficient code?

01:38:11   And it was rewritten from scratch with all this cruft gone

01:38:17   and all sorts of new stuff to help modern compilers in there.

01:38:21   And here we are over a year later,

01:38:23   and Apple is still the only mainstream device that has it.

01:38:27   And we have Swift and we have Metal.

01:38:29   So when you put those technologies all together,

01:38:31   eventually the performance is gonna be way beyond

01:38:33   what just the hardware delivers.

01:38:35   Yeah, and I think that those two things,

01:38:37   Swift is obviously new for 2014, Metal is new for 2014.

01:38:44   And I think they get to the heart of like,

01:38:49   what is Apple going to be like as a big company

01:38:53   with big weapons to swing around?

01:38:57   And obviously, like I said,

01:39:00   the watch that the Canary Nicole found I'm looking for

01:39:02   is hubris, and obviously when a company gets bigger,

01:39:05   it tries to do more on its own.

01:39:07   I mean, Microsoft famously does everything on its own.

01:39:13   They're the only company that use back to you know, just little details like that. They use backslashes instead of slashes between directory paths

01:39:20   To you know having had their own

01:39:24   You know developer toolchain and their own programming language, you know for you know, but they did more than that though

01:39:32   I feel like when Microsoft was at its height, you know in the 90s, you know

01:39:37   it was the fact that they expanded into things like

01:39:42   ownership of slate.com the founding of msnbc you know that they wanted to own a cable news network

01:39:48   right why would microsoft want to get involved in cable news you know but

01:39:53   i feel like apple as they try to do more and more on their own it's only in the name of enabling

01:40:00   features that would be better for the products they're already making right like for enterprise

01:40:05   they didn't decide to create an enterprise company or buy an enterprise company they partnered with

01:40:08   IBM to let them do what they did well.

01:40:10   Right. Yeah, that's a great example of that they didn't create this new enterprise division

01:40:17   within Apple, which is outside their expertise and risks losing their focus.

01:40:23   If Tim Cook wants to make a big bet and do this, he doesn't have to spend anywhere near

01:40:29   as much attention on it as he would in this world where they're willing to say, "You know what?

01:40:35   We just want our devices to be used in the enterprise

01:40:38   We'll let IBM handle how to make the sales and how to write these you know these apps that are meant for that market

01:40:44   It's a perfect example

01:40:46   Yeah, much better than buying SAP or something that the imaginary people always want Apple to buy right and Swift

01:40:52   You know is an example where they're not they didn't create a new programming language to change computer science

01:40:58   It's not you know if anything that the critiques from people who are like

01:41:03   Programming language critics is that it's sort of a boring language. There's nothing outlandish about it. There's nothing novel about it

01:41:11   It's just a nice simple language, you know in term not not that there aren't clever things under the hood and like the fact that

01:41:20   You know

01:41:23   Most of the language it's designed is is defined in the runtime not in the language itself

01:41:29   The language itself is super super minimal

01:41:30   There's something you know artistic about that, but effectively it's just what kind of programming language

01:41:36   Would you write would you want to enable the sort of software that Apple wants to run?

01:41:42   That's it. It's just a very very practical language

01:41:45   You know and what would you get when you have a language that's

01:41:50   Led by the compiler guy Chris Ladner or a company that lets the compiler guy leave the language, right?

01:41:57   But it's sort of the opposite of the sort of hoity-toity

01:42:00   academic languages that you know with the new programming languages that I remember when I was young and in college in the 90s where it

01:42:07   Was all led it was you know that the the practical utility them was completely abstracted. It was all

01:42:14   Philosophical in terms of what was driving the decisions behind them

01:42:19   Yeah, it's a language designed to be used by Apple and and sooner rather than later

01:42:23   Yes, very much so and very much designed, you know as

01:42:27   Syracuse's pointed out on ATP

01:42:30   It's we've already one thing we've got that is not going to budge is we've already got these frameworks the cocoa frameworks and

01:42:37   In theory if they were going to start with all new frameworks, maybe they'd come up with a new language

01:42:41   But it's we've got these frameworks that are you know have these you know that are already designed and already have these these

01:42:48   You know design patterns what type of new language would we use that would best leverage them?

01:42:53   And that's one of the things that I really like about the way that Apple is running now is there

01:42:57   No, they don't have to restart everything again

01:42:59   They can do something like add

01:43:01   LLVM and add Swift and do these things that

01:43:04   Take them further without having to destroy or stop or paid an artificial break between what they had before

01:43:09   It's like they're swapping the parts behind the scenes and if you're not paying attention

01:43:12   You might not even see it, but it gives them tremendous benefit over time. Yeah and metal likewise

01:43:18   You know, it's it's it's the only it's the sort of thing you can only do when you have a big user base

01:43:25   I mean Microsoft famously has done that with the DirectX, you know, we're Mike, you know

01:43:30   And it's you know sustained to this day that their leadership in PC gaming, you know

01:43:35   If that there's probably no area of computing where they're stronger than PC gaming

01:43:40   And they're able to say here's you know, here's the graphics language

01:43:44   you're going to use and that's it and they can do that because they've got the

01:43:48   footprint

01:43:50   Apple couldn't do metal, you know

01:43:53   Ten years ago with the Mac

01:43:55   I mean, it's still not on the Mac

01:43:56   But they couldn't and I don't think they could have I don't think it would have really taken off in 2008 or 2009

01:44:01   They really needed that massive hundreds of millions of users base and this you know

01:44:08   This de facto

01:44:10   Position is like the leading handheld gaming market and now it's not like they're forcing it down developers throats there

01:44:18   You know, you don't have to use it

01:44:20   It's not like they're they've said like oh next year if you don't use if your game isn't using Swift

01:44:25   It won't be in the App Store

01:44:27   it's something developers want to use though because

01:44:29   It's it gives them better performance and lets them hit

01:44:35   You know a huge number of their users and it was something that they could announce at

01:44:39   WWDC while they were announcing that I forget the four or five biggest game engines in the world were all supporting it

01:44:44   so for most developers they

01:44:46   Quote-unquote get it for free because the engine that they're already using is just now getting the benefits of all of that, right?

01:44:50   all right, and it's definitely a

01:44:53   Yeah, I guess that it's in broad strokes

01:44:57   it's the sort of thing Apple could only do now that they're big and

01:45:00   the market leader and that wouldn't it just wasn't possible in the old days when they were

01:45:06   The little guy on the sides when the adobe's and Microsoft's could say no, we're not going to support your

01:45:11   Your rap city. Yeah, that's a you know, perfect example, right?

01:45:16   Although the rhapsody thing was a little bit more it's funny because they were a little bit more

01:45:21   Adamant back then where their initial proposal with adamant with rap city was you're going to rewrite your apps in cocoa

01:45:28   Or else you have to run in this little little ghetto

01:45:34   environment

01:45:35   Whereas, you know even with Swift like I said, they're not saying you have to use Swift

01:45:39   even though they could

01:45:42   Really? I mean, I think they could get away with it. But you know, they're not because I feel like there's a

01:45:48   Humility to them

01:45:51   Yeah, I mean absolutely and you get people like, you know, Brent Simmons now

01:45:54   We get to play around with it and blog about all their experiences with it and the benefits everybody

01:45:58   It's almost like a built-in

01:45:59   They don't do betas the way Google does but the way they're releasing it gives a lot of people a lot of time

01:46:03   To weigh in beyond the five and then hundred people at Apple who knew about it

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01:50:16   good scotch lately Renee only when I'm out with you and guy that's the time

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01:50:25   or if I do I don't remember so lack of Christmas Apple events yeah so that's it

01:50:32   though I think that what else is up for 2014 and review I think there's sort of

01:50:36   things that we could touch on just quickly one is the

01:50:38   Tim Cook beyond just running at Apple, but the the moves he's made towards the inclusivity and towards equal opportunity. Oh

01:50:45   liberties I

01:50:47   Can't believe I didn't think of that. I think that's it's absolutely been a big year for that

01:50:51   That his essay I think was just absolutely pitch-perfect

01:50:55   Just his own version of you know thoughts on and but it was so much more personal

01:51:02   Yeah, I think even if he hadn't written that and come out himself as gay this year

01:51:08   I think it would still be worth talking about the like you said inclusivity and

01:51:12   Etc that that he's led and that Apple is pushed this year

01:51:17   It's terrific and it reminds me of the story that I heard

01:51:20   You know what?

01:51:21   Scott forest all whether he really wanted to make Apple a more inclusive company and he believed that you in order to hire more

01:51:28   With more diversity you had to have more diversity in the hiring process. So when he would get they had terrific female engineer

01:51:34   I mean Vicki Murley famously but terrific female engineers on the Safari team, for example

01:51:38   And they would they would not only send them on the resumes

01:51:41   but they would send them out to you know on the job hunt to the to the colleges because they knew that they would come

01:51:46   back with a different perspective and

01:51:48   We we haven't seen tremendous spread of that effect

01:51:51   We haven't seen a huge swing in the amount of women or minorities and in jobs in Silicon Valley

01:51:56   But we have seen improvements and I think with Apple's report as disappointing as the results might be to many people

01:52:01   The exposure that it gets and the willingness for people to want to make it better. I think we're huge this year

01:52:06   Yeah, and I think it's again another one of those things where I think you can really just take Tim Cook at his word

01:52:14   Yeah, and it's no euphemism. It's not just you know, trying to say what people want to hear

01:52:20   I think he means it where a he thinks it's just right

01:52:23   it's just the right thing to do but be that that that fierce competitor in him you can tell when he says it that

01:52:29   It's there's there's obviously so much untapped talent

01:52:33   outside

01:52:36   The white male engineer, you know, yeah whites and Asians, you know that everybody else women people of color

01:52:43   men and women

01:52:46   It's the talent is out there and Apple is starved for talent and they want it

01:52:52   you know, so there's in addition to the the

01:52:55   Justice angle, you know that it's the way it should be that that people don't feel welcome in the industry

01:53:02   But it there's also just a purely

01:53:04   competitive aspect to it

01:53:07   It's it was that beautiful moment too with Tim Cook when they were at the shareholders meeting and the guy stood up and he said why

01:53:12   Are you waste basically said why are you wasting my money on?

01:53:15   Environmentalism and accessibility and Tim Cook said, you know that this stuff matters and if you don't think it matters

01:53:20   Just get the hell out of the stock, right? It was the guy brought up ROI

01:53:23   Yeah, an investment and you know and it was fascinating

01:53:27   You know that that cook got as angry as he did and said everything we do isn't about the bloody our ROI

01:53:34   Yeah, and it's funny that he said bloody because she says, you know clearly he's not British

01:53:38   She's he's the cool one right like we'd expect that from Steve Jobs

01:53:41   Steve Jobs was bombastic

01:53:42   But Tim Cook always looked like he would just sit there with laser beams in his eyes and that for him is hugely emotional

01:53:48   Right, it wouldn't be surprising if Tim Cook I mean if Steve Jobs had gotten angry at a Cheryl

01:53:54   Yeah, whereas Tim Cook is the guy you'd think no matter what any crackpot shareholder would say

01:53:58   He's not gonna get angry

01:53:59   But he did that clearly angered him and again like when I think was the Financial Times that named him their

01:54:05   CEO of the year there was somebody there was a couple yes so far

01:54:09   But the one that I linked to I remember that they led their their here's why with that anecdote and I think in hindsight

01:54:16   said it was the most telling anecdote of the year you know in terms of Tim Cook

01:54:21   being unscripted yes you know I think in terms of what was scripted and what it

01:54:25   was planned his you know his coming out essay in business week was probably it

01:54:30   but that moment at the shareholders meeting I think was the most telling

01:54:34   impromptu moment yeah and you know it really made me think it's strange to say

01:54:39   but it made me think a lot more of Tim Cook because you know it is hard to tell

01:54:42   he is so controlled in public and so on message and so on point and he's such

01:54:46   He's so gifted as a thinker and someone who controls logistics and all these things to see his remotional response sort of added

01:54:53   A whole new dimension to him as not just a CEO, but a person

01:54:56   yeah, I think absolutely and

01:54:59   You know, and I think that's it. It's also a to me a sign of the long-term thinking

01:55:06   That the Apple, you know under jobs, you know constantly, you know consistently since since the in the post next

01:55:15   Verification era, you know that they've been a long-term company that's looking at building a company that's going to be here for 50 or 100 years

01:55:22   You know that's going to outlive everybody who's at the company today, you know

01:55:27   And there's I really do think that that's what they're looking at that they're trying to build an institution that's going to still be here

01:55:33   when Tim Cook and Phil Schiller and Angela aren'ts are all long retired and you know

01:55:40   Frankly in the grave. Yeah, and how do you do that? Well, you don't do it by sweating the ROI on every single thing you do

01:55:47   Yeah, and it's you know, the other thing too it that and I think it's probably what burned him up is

01:55:54   It's not like Apple, you know has dipped into low profit margins and that they're still spending money

01:56:01   I think it was in particular with the

01:56:03   the the clean energy for the data centers and

01:56:08   Spending money on thing, you know worrying about things like their environmental impact on global warming or climate change, whatever you want to call it

01:56:15   Carbon footprint. Yeah, it definitely struck a chord with him. It was a good chord to been struck

01:56:21   And you know the whole, you know social

01:56:25   Equality angle is has clearly I don't think Steve Jobs was against it, but it's you know

01:56:34   Apple is clearly as a company is clearly more outspoken about it now than they were under him

01:56:39   Well jobs seem to believe that all that stuff was deeply personal charity charitable donations and support for causes was something that he believed that

01:56:45   Apple paying that people could let people spend their own money on but it wasn't at a corporate level where Tim Cook

01:56:50   You know, he took Apple on the gay pride parade. He's put Apple behind equal employment legislation

01:56:55   He's really believed that the power and and wealth of Apple can be used for more than just generating more power and wealth. Yeah

01:57:03   Yeah

01:57:04   Absolutely. All right, and what was your second thing? My second thing was I was gonna talk about the App Store stuff

01:57:08   But I feel like it's a bit of a downer at the end now

01:57:10   Maybe we did him in the wrong order

01:57:12   Well, we should still do it. Well, we'll let whiskers fix it. Okay

01:57:16   Right with the

01:57:22   Well the today view widgets right this that people you know

01:57:29   in short it was like Apple introduced these today view widgets and

01:57:33   At WWDC and then you know, I think they might have even literally said we can't wait to see what you guys do with them

01:57:39   yeah, and

01:57:40   Then they saw what people were doing with them and rejected a whole bunch of the most clever

01:57:46   versions of them

01:57:48   Who was it

01:57:51   Was it I think it was James Thompson's p-calc. Yeah, that was simultaneously being promoted

01:57:58   in the App Store with a banner for great new uses of TodayView widgets because he added

01:58:06   a calculator.

01:58:07   So without even opening the app right in TodayView, if you put the PCALC widget in, you could

01:58:11   just do your calculation right there.

01:58:14   It was being promoted as a great new widget at the same time that the review team had

01:58:19   contacted him and said, "You know what?

01:58:21   That's outside the bounds of what we intended to be enabled, so you're going to have to

01:58:24   submit a new build that takes that out."

01:58:27   On the outside it looks absolutely insane and I think it's worth explaining, not to

01:58:31   excuse it, but sort of to explain it.

01:58:33   So extensibility is this huge new feature and everyone is trying to ship iOS 8 and developers

01:58:38   are trying to get their apps approved and app review is the worst time of the year to

01:58:41   work in app review.

01:58:42   And they bring in as many people as they can and they try to get as many apps as possible

01:58:46   onto the store.

01:58:47   And as soon as an app is approved, and this is all under Phil Schiller's org, that moves

01:58:51   to Eddy Cue's org where they have app editorial and they need to program the entire app store

01:58:55   or promotion for all that stuff,

01:58:57   and all they see is approved.

01:58:58   They have no idea what might be going on behind the scenes.

01:59:00   It's flagged as approved, it's fine for editorial.

01:59:02   And then when things sort of slow down again,

01:59:04   people who are higher up in App Store review,

01:59:07   who have a lot of ideas about what they believe,

01:59:09   you know, and they sincerely believe

01:59:11   certain things about experience,

01:59:12   and whether a button will confuse an average user,

01:59:14   or whether someone is spending time in Notification Center,

01:59:17   and they're not supposed to,

01:59:18   it's supposed to be a quick conduit.

01:59:20   And they care a lot about these things,

01:59:21   and they'll flag it, and then it'll get removed,

01:59:24   and it won't make any sense,

01:59:25   Developers will appeal and it'll go to a higher level and it might end up on the executive review committee's desk

01:59:30   And they might say it's fine

01:59:31   You know stop worrying about it

01:59:33   And but it I think extensibility was so new that it created a disconnect between what was technically possible

01:59:38   And what people who had been in app review, you know me at a slightly higher level for many years

01:59:43   Thought should be the experience on the system

01:59:46   Yeah, I think that's a very good way to put it and I think maybe the transmit

01:59:53   It was transmitted right yeah, yeah that had the sharing to

01:59:58   Storage services like box.net and Dropbox and I cloud drive

02:00:06   You know that

02:00:09   Completely within the the they didn't they didn't use any non-private or non-public

02:00:15   Apis all public api's the sharing sheet itself the the what's it called move to?

02:00:22   whatever you want to call it send to send to

02:00:24   They don't have any control over it's part of that whole

02:00:29   Inner application communication that that enables so many of these continuity features and sharing

02:00:37   It's one sheet that can't line item veto certain services right because the system is drawing it which is

02:00:42   Why Apple is opening up seemingly opening up and letting you do these things that you couldn't do before?

02:00:48   and

02:00:50   Then they were told you can't you can't do this for iCloud Drive. You can't send anything you you can't send anything

02:00:57   That wasn't created in your your own app to iCloud Drive

02:01:00   Which meant like you said because you don't have line item veto on the services that are listed

02:01:05   That you had to take out the whole thing and now the app couldn't send to anybody

02:01:09   Including Dropbox or box or anybody who Apple doesn't care about

02:01:14   Whereas it almost seemed like it was exactly why they added the send to in the first place so that you could do things like that

02:01:21   It's again when you look at it from certain perspective and I'm not supporting this perspective

02:01:25   But I know it's almost thing like, you know

02:01:27   I understand is that they didn't they don't want the line item veto because they think that there can be disputes within companies that would

02:01:32   Cause one company to sort of remove a competitor or remove a service and that's not to the benefit of the user

02:01:37   But the original model on Mac it's the same like there was Apple made a calculator widget for OS 10

02:01:43   and they didn't make one for iOS for a variety of reasons,

02:01:45   but they thought it wasn't the right experience.

02:01:47   So they deliberately didn't make one.

02:01:49   Then, you know, James Thompson,

02:01:50   who's a phenomenal developer did make one.

02:01:52   For iCloud drive on the Mac,

02:01:53   you could put any arbitrary file there,

02:01:54   but on iOS, it was sort of understood

02:01:56   that you could only put files that you created or edited,

02:01:59   because that meant the user knew that they were in your app

02:02:01   and was working on them,

02:02:03   and they would understand it was in that space.

02:02:05   But then something like transit comes along,

02:02:06   which is the, you know, quote unquote,

02:02:08   Steve Jobs unforeseen thing.

02:02:09   And it's taken to the level where they can say,

02:02:11   This isn't what we intended for it to do,

02:02:14   but it's not taken to the level of thinking,

02:02:15   well, is it a good thing anyway?

02:02:17   Like, should we let it in anyway?

02:02:19   So it gets rejected, then it gets appealed,

02:02:21   then it gets overturned,

02:02:22   and it makes Apple look horrible in the press.

02:02:24   It stresses out the developers,

02:02:25   and it affects the features that customers believe

02:02:27   that they've paid for, and don't have paid for,

02:02:30   and it's just not a good outcome for anybody.

02:02:32   - Yeah, but I do, yeah.

02:02:33   And if you, like you said though,

02:02:34   I think if you wanna try to understand why,

02:02:36   it's that it's so new, and there's so many moving pieces.

02:02:40   And the thing that made-- if you understood everything that

02:02:45   was going on, the thing that made Transmits--

02:02:47   and again, Transmit wasn't yanked from the App Store.

02:02:49   They got a mostly friendly notification

02:02:53   that they were told, you need to submit a new build that

02:02:56   takes this out.

02:02:58   And they couldn't wait forever.

02:03:00   I'm sure that at some point, Apple would--

02:03:02   It's like two weeks usually, I think.

02:03:03   Yeah.

02:03:04   And it's more or less, take out those lines of code

02:03:06   that do this, test your new build, and submit it,

02:03:09   and we'll do this.

02:03:10   I don't think it's any surprise that it was the iOS version

02:03:15   that caused the problem.

02:03:17   Now, if you understood what was going on,

02:03:18   it didn't make any sense though,

02:03:19   because nothing you could do from the iOS version,

02:03:21   no file that you could put, move from transmit

02:03:26   to your iCloud drive.

02:03:28   You couldn't do the exact same thing on Yosemite.

02:03:31   You could do the exact same thing.

02:03:32   So there was nothing that they were,

02:03:35   whoever it was who thought they needed

02:03:38   to not be able to do this from their iOS app,

02:03:41   it was seemingly unaware that whatever it was

02:03:44   that you would do, whether it was a porno file

02:03:46   or a illegally downloaded movie or whatever it is

02:03:49   that they were worried about, was it copyright, whatever.

02:03:52   - Or just stealing files, you know, you load an app

02:03:54   and it starts taking your files and putting it

02:03:55   on someone's server somewhere.

02:03:56   - Yes.

02:03:57   It was all stuff that you could do right in a finder

02:04:02   in Yosemite, you can put whatever file you want

02:04:03   in your iCloud drive, you know, in the same way

02:04:06   that the finder doesn't keep you from moving,

02:04:07   You know a file from any folder anywhere to any other folder

02:04:11   But I think it's understandable because that you know it the review teams and it correct me if you're wrong

02:04:17   I think you might know more about their internal makeup, but the Iowa it's not like a review team

02:04:21   There's iOS reviewers and Mac. Yes, and the iOS reviewers are coming from a years-long

02:04:28   history of you know, what's restricted on iOS and

02:04:33   moving files that weren't created in app whatever your app is to anywhere else has always been

02:04:40   Forbidden and so it's you know, I could see how it even got high up

02:04:44   Not to the highest levels but pretty high up and they thought no this has to be against the rules

02:04:49   This isn't something that iOS does I wrote a piece about this and one of the things I just wanted to

02:04:53   To help people understand is that when you say like Apple rejected it Apple has these same discussions

02:04:59   Like if you listen to ATP or you listen to the talk show, that's the discussion that's happening inside Apple as well

02:05:03   and there's people advocating very strongly that these things should be allowed, and there's

02:05:07   people advocating saying, "This button here is going to confuse somebody.

02:05:10   They'll press it.

02:05:11   They'll suddenly be an app.

02:05:12   They won't know where they are."

02:05:13   And they're not modeling it for me or you or Marco or John or somebody.

02:05:16   They're marketing it for our parents and our non-sophisticated tech-using relatives.

02:05:22   There are some people who are deeply, deeply concerned that they have a very sensible,

02:05:26   understandable experience.

02:05:28   You could argue that widgets and extensibility in general is a pretty nerdy feature, and

02:05:32   anyone using it probably knows what they're doing.

02:05:34   And I think that's the argument that's winning out now.

02:05:37   But it really is these sorts of discussions.

02:05:39   And people want more rules sometimes on the App Store,

02:05:42   but Apple believes that the more,

02:05:43   my understanding is that Apple believes

02:05:45   that the more rules will actually chill innovation.

02:05:47   And they'd much rather see James Thompson,

02:05:49   as annoying as it is, make a calculator widget,

02:05:51   have it rejected, then have it approved,

02:05:53   then have him to see a rule and just never make it

02:05:55   or have to lobby for a change in the rule.

02:05:57   That might take years.

02:05:58   Because right now as ugly and as frustrating

02:06:00   as a process was we have PCalc, we have Transmit,

02:06:03   we have all these things now officially on the store

02:06:05   and we have these things officially clarified.

02:06:06   And it's only been like two months.

02:06:09   - That's a good point.

02:06:10   - Yeah, I would like to see,

02:06:11   and I wrote a thing about this,

02:06:12   but I think it would be great for everybody

02:06:14   if there was a public facing vice president of App Store.

02:06:17   There are really good directors of App Stores,

02:06:20   there's really good people in both Schiller and Q's org,

02:06:24   but they're split over all these different organizations

02:06:26   and much like software development

02:06:28   accelerated under Federighi and stores are accelerating under Angela Ahrens.

02:06:32   I think if there was somebody whose only job it was to make a fantastic

02:06:36   experience on the App Store, whether it's making review better, whether it's adding

02:06:40   sloppy search finally to the App Store, but to someone who all he had to do is

02:06:45   wake up every day and make developers and customers super happy, I think that

02:06:48   would improve the situation for everybody. What's the word, there's a word

02:06:53   like newspapers sometimes have them. Ombudsman's. Ombudsman. That's yeah I was

02:06:59   thinking the New York Times doesn't call them an ombudsman they call the the

02:07:03   public editor. Only and my understanding of why is that for decades they rejected

02:07:09   having an ombudsman and then when they finally added an ombudsman they didn't

02:07:13   want to say okay now we have an ombudsman they just call their ombudsman

02:07:16   the public editor. But the idea of the ombudsman is that at a newspaper for

02:07:21   example the ombudsman doesn't is independent and doesn't report to the

02:07:25   you know editor-in-chief of the newspaper and so a reader who has a

02:07:29   problem with let's say the and it's some sort of bias in the coverage of anything

02:07:33   can go to the ombudsman and the ombudsman can conduct like an independent review I

02:07:38   would love to see Apple have an App Store ombudsman yeah you know and and

02:07:46   And I think the way to do it would be to write a blog.

02:07:52   And have a blog--

02:07:53   so it's not like anybody could create an ombudsman issue.

02:07:59   The ombudsman would still get to choose what they wrote about,

02:08:02   but that they could look at something like pCalc

02:08:05   or Transmit.

02:08:06   And not just like when I write about it, or you write about it,

02:08:12   and kind of make a stink and hope somebody at Apple

02:08:15   reads our sites and does something about it.

02:08:17   But before going public with it,

02:08:19   the ombudsman could go inside and go to somebody

02:08:22   and do the research and maybe get it clarified

02:08:25   without the stink.

02:08:27   - Yeah, sort of deescalate it

02:08:28   before it hits the media and the executives.

02:08:31   - Yeah, but then the ombudsman, as somebody inside Apple,

02:08:36   could then write a post

02:08:37   that maybe explains what Apple is thinking.

02:08:40   And again, without making new rules

02:08:42   and creating an ever more complicated set of guidelines

02:08:46   for the App Store, at least sort of explain

02:08:49   in plain English, here's the sort of things

02:08:51   that are okay in a today view widget

02:08:53   and here's the sort of things that aren't.

02:08:56   - And I think that's a really good idea

02:08:57   because we're friends with a lot of people

02:09:00   who make productivity and creativity apps

02:09:01   and that's where this is a problem.

02:09:03   The people making Clash of Clans and Candy Crush

02:09:05   and all the people who are making the billions of dollars

02:09:07   on the App Store, there's no uncertainty for them,

02:09:09   there's no problem with app review for them.

02:09:11   they're all fine.

02:09:12   - Right, I'm sure it never occurred to the developer

02:09:15   to make a version of Crossy Road

02:09:18   that runs as a today to view widget.

02:09:20   - Yeah, and I mean, those are the easy problems,

02:09:22   it's the ones that are more shades of gray

02:09:25   that have these problems.

02:09:27   And the other argument that it's killing innovation,

02:09:29   I mean, I've had Android devices for four or five years,

02:09:31   they have a much easier review process than Apple does.

02:09:34   And I've not seen the groundbreaking platform making

02:09:38   sort of future apps arrive on Android any faster

02:09:41   because of that than iOS.

02:09:43   And it's easy to say maybe Android sucks,

02:09:44   and that's why it doesn't happen.

02:09:45   But it's also possible that Apple does add background tasks

02:09:48   and they do add extensibility,

02:09:50   and they do add the features that they need to add

02:09:53   to give developers sort of the tools

02:09:54   that they need to make these sorts of apps.

02:09:56   And it's possible that things like Workflow and Uber

02:09:59   get made regardless of what App Review does,

02:10:01   because those things, as cool as they are,

02:10:04   they don't come across anywhere near

02:10:06   the lines that Apple draws.

02:10:09   Well, on the other hand though, I do think, to take a devil's advocate position, we do

02:10:14   have far more, a far richer variety of outside the bounds of the stock factory OS productivity

02:10:24   software on Mac than we do iOS.

02:10:27   The difference is that iOS is starting with this foundation of we, Apple, are promising

02:10:34   you that nothing you install from the App Store is going to do something like run away

02:10:39   in the background or be hard to uninstall if you don't like it.

02:10:47   Whereas the risks you take on the Mac of allowing anything and everything that you can download

02:10:53   outside the App Store is that you have utilities that can be hard to uninstall.

02:10:58   I tried to uninstall BlackBerry Connect and it was a nightmare.

02:11:02   You know, it's always I think it's less of a problem than it used to be

02:11:05   But it's always been a problem and that you might add uncertainty and if you feel like, you know

02:11:10   Like a non technical user like we know that if the fans running on your computer and you don't think it should be you can

02:11:15   Go to activity monitor or up there to the battery menu and it'll tell you you know in recent versions

02:11:20   Who's you know, which app is using excessive power?

02:11:22   You know, but it's can be it can be confusing to a typical user

02:11:28   They don't know to do those things and what if it's some app that they've never heard of because it's you know

02:11:33   The helper app for another app. It's a faceless background app. That doesn't doesn't even show up in their doc

02:11:39   Well, then what do they do? You know iOS has this promise of

02:11:43   We're you're never gonna have to worry about those things and you know part of that promise it only happens if if

02:11:50   Everything goes through an App Store review process

02:11:53   Which is why to install the keyboard you got to download an app and even though that app does absolutely nothing

02:11:57   once you've downloaded it and if you delete it,

02:12:00   the keyboard goes away, it's still the same mechanism

02:12:02   to deliver all the new features that they're adding.

02:12:05   It's an interesting problem to solve.

02:12:06   And I think, you know, I use PCALC, the widget all the time.

02:12:10   I barely, sorry, James, I barely launch PCALC anymore

02:12:12   'cause a widget is just enough almost all the time.

02:12:15   And I use drafts and I use transmit

02:12:17   and I love all these features

02:12:18   and I'm happy that Apple reversed the stuff.

02:12:20   I just think that it's worth breaking down the process

02:12:23   that happens because the more you understand it.

02:12:25   - Did drafts get everything back?

02:12:26   - Yes.

02:12:27   Well, I wasn't aware of that.

02:12:29   I knew that they had had some, you know, the same type of issues.

02:12:32   Yeah.

02:12:33   Well, that's good to know.

02:12:34   The only thing that was rejected outright was the app launcher, because Apple really

02:12:37   doesn't believe that other things should launch apps.

02:12:39   And the guy who tried...

02:12:40   There was a rule that says you couldn't have keyboards in widgets.

02:12:42   So the guy basically drew his own instead of invoking the built-in one, and that was

02:12:46   still rejected.

02:12:47   Yeah, I think it comes down to my...

02:12:48   I forgot I was arguing earlier where you have to err on one side or the other.

02:12:52   And that at least with iOS, Apple is going to continue to err on the side of being a

02:12:59   little too strict.

02:13:02   And you know, the side effect of that, like the benefit of that is that abusive software

02:13:11   isn't going to, is less likely to slip through.

02:13:15   The downside to it is, like you said, sometimes it's going to take some ugly airing of dirty

02:13:21   laundry, public airing of dirty laundry, to get it sufficiently looked at by a high enough

02:13:27   level person.

02:13:28   And I think, I don't want to call it a problem, but I think the sign of the change is that

02:13:32   Craig Federicchi, he skews more towards geeky than Scott Forrestal.

02:13:35   I mean, it was hard to get airdrop on the iPhone, and now we have extensibility and

02:13:41   continuity.

02:13:42   And App Store review hasn't changed the way software development has changed.

02:13:46   They're still very much the organization they were back in the Forrestal era, and there's

02:13:50   is gonna be some tension until that's worked out.

02:13:52   As we get geekier features, we're gonna,

02:13:55   the iPhone was not made for geeks.

02:13:56   It was made for mainstream people.

02:13:58   It was a smartphone that everybody could use,

02:14:00   but geeks loved it as well.

02:14:01   And now it's becoming a phone that works great for geeks

02:14:04   because of these features.

02:14:05   And I think app review is gonna have to evolve

02:14:07   the way software has.

02:14:09   - Yeah, totally agree.

02:14:10   All right, I think that catches up.

02:14:14   I think that's our year in review.

02:14:16   - Good year.

02:14:17   - Yeah, it was.

02:14:18   Excited about next year?

02:14:20   I can't wait everything from the Apple watch to the theoretically larger iPad to the new features. We'll see with it and an iOS 9

02:14:27   It's I think it's gonna be a great year. I guess I think one thing is for sure

02:14:32   I think one thing when we if we look back a year from now in 2015

02:14:36   I think the first half of 2015 is gonna be a lot more interesting than the first half of 2014

02:14:41   Yeah, it's gonna be harken back. I think to the first year

02:14:43   I wouldn't be surprised if the first year

02:14:45   Sorry

02:14:45   the first part of 2015 is very similar to the first part of 2010 and the iWatch is similar to the launch of the

02:14:50   original iPad yeah I do I cuz I you know just off the top of my head I expect

02:14:55   both a bigger iPad and the watch in the first half yeah maybe whether they come

02:14:59   at the same event or not I don't know but you know I think they're both coming

02:15:03   sort of before I just don't know if the Apple TV will come with them where if

02:15:07   that's still in the garage you know honestly no idea wouldn't be surprised

02:15:11   it would be huge if they did all three in the first half that'd be almost

02:15:15   unprecedented and it just as a not to try to you know err on the side of

02:15:22   getting too excited but it would kind of make sense in the context of Tim Cook's

02:15:26   previous you know maybe over promising of what they were going to deliver in

02:15:32   2014 that some of these things you know maybe got bumped you know you know Apple

02:15:38   Apple Pay and Apple Watch count as the plural new product categories, but it does seem like

02:15:49   when he first started talking about that I expected a little bit more, like maybe one

02:15:53   more thing for 2014.

02:15:54   Yeah, well I think, I don't know if you heard the same thing I did, but the Apple TV sounded

02:15:57   like last spring and then it sounded like this fall and then it sounds like next spring

02:16:00   and it sounds like that's a bigger job than people thought it was originally going to

02:16:03   be.

02:16:04   Yeah, I definitely heard back in June in WWDC that it was

02:16:09   Maybe originally thought that it would come out before the end of 2014, but even back at June it was no way

02:16:16   Yeah, not even not even feasible for it to be a 2014 thing. I'm good

02:16:20   I'm happy if they I mean I liked it when Apple had products spread across the year

02:16:23   I find everything coming in fall just quite a lot to deal with

02:16:26   Yeah, well and the other thing too that I think made it impossible and it's not even to get in any details of it

02:16:31   But it's just the simple fact that if it doesn't ship by October it doesn't ship that yes that November and December don't count because they

02:16:38   Can they're just it too late for the holiday season absolutely that if it can't be announced in October

02:16:43   It doesn't get announced till 2015 and it doesn't get announced 2015

02:16:47   It's probably like more like February than January yeah

02:16:51   And we'd start to see signs already I mean if any of those products were like January February we'd start seeing things moving

02:16:55   Yeah, like November December January not that Apple doesn't get work done

02:17:00   But products don't get slated for release in those months

02:17:03   All right, Renee more people can find out more see your great work at I'm more of course. I'm more calm

02:17:09   What are your podcasts lists your podcast? I have debug with guy English

02:17:14   We talked to developers about developing stuff and then I have vector with guy English Dave whiskus and Georgia Dow

02:17:19   We talked about the intersection of technology and humanity and I do iterate with Mark Edwards and Seth Clifford, which is designer oriented stuff

02:17:25   Who do you think is gonna record more podcast episodes in 2015?

02:17:30   You or Jason snow. I it's it's neck and neck but I love that or maybe Mike Hurley

02:17:35   I mean it's becoming it's becoming a bit of a joke

02:17:38   They're all good shows you're prolific

02:17:43   I like here's why I like having you on this show because I feel like on your regular shows you

02:17:48   Defer to your guests and sometimes I forget that you're you're even there. I'm like word Renee go

02:17:54   I'd like to hear Renee pipe in you are so deferential

02:17:57   I like having you here and letting you go off because man you really know your shit. Thank you. I really appreciate that

02:18:02   all right

02:18:04   well, thanks to you and

02:18:06   Go check out Renee's shows and go read I'm on you John. All right, I'm hitting stop