The Talk Show

101: ‘Like a Butt Crack’ With Christa Mrgan


00:00:00   Yes, but can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Yeah, and I can hear us but it's very strange. I don't know

00:00:06   I seriously I spent 15 minutes and made like probably 12 recordings to make sure that everything was fine

00:00:13   I'm telling you and I re I include

00:00:16   Most I half the time we include this stuff in the show like me having problems with Skype. I

00:00:23   Am like like mr. Magoo with Skype like nothing can possibly

00:00:29   Possibly I never want to have a podcast where it actually just plain works. It's always

00:00:35   well, the horrible thing is that I

00:00:38   Work on audio recording apps like this is what I do every day

00:00:43   Every day and somehow it just it just screws up every time that I actually I mean when I test things it's fine

00:00:50   It's always fine and I said, you know, sometimes I run kind of long tests and look alright

00:00:53   Alright, things are going well and then no actually using them

00:00:56   Something always breaks. It has to be Skype's fault. It can't be any of our

00:01:00   Perfect perfectly usable software. Of course, which always functions

00:01:05   At 100% so you anyway Krista Murgen you sound great. Oh

00:01:10   Great. Thanks. You do as well. Thank you. I have so much to talk about

00:01:15   I am so excited because the watch stuff came out and

00:01:17   Yes, are you excited about the watch?

00:01:20   I'm excited about the watch and also

00:01:23   I don't know this this happens sort of with I feel like every time there's either a big update to an Apple product or a

00:01:30   Brand new Apple product music. Well, though I really need that and then of course, I know the day that it comes out

00:01:36   I'm gonna be like, oh god, give this give me this thing

00:01:39   So I'm excited about it, but also a little like I don't know

00:01:43   I'm excited because I think it's kind of cool. But I also think that it is

00:01:47   it's this weird mix of

00:01:52   Apple being way ahead of where they've ever been with a new product before

00:01:56   Combined with that. There's still a lot of mystery around it

00:02:00   There is yeah, there's quite a bit of mystery as to what I mean even even with

00:02:05   The watch kit out now

00:02:08   I feel like there's still a mystery about what you'll you'll actually be able to do

00:02:12   In this sort of first round before we can build truly native apps on the on the watch

00:02:16   At least for me. Yeah, I mean I

00:02:20   The day that it came out, I think it was the very day.

00:02:25   Maybe it was, no, I think it was the same day.

00:02:26   I was out in San Francisco 'cause I was at the event

00:02:28   and they announced the thing and I was down in Cupertino

00:02:33   or not, yeah, for the event.

00:02:37   And then I came back to San Francisco

00:02:39   and I put my nose together and you know Michael Lop, right?

00:02:43   Ransome, and he is in San Francisco now.

00:02:47   He works there, he's at Pinterest,

00:02:48   and we met and we had a drink.

00:02:50   And the first thing that he said to me was that this is weird because it feels like this

00:02:55   is like year three of the watch because there's like two different sizes.

00:03:00   There's all these different bands.

00:03:01   Like it feels like a third generation Apple product.

00:03:05   Like okay, now we're going to give you two sizes and we're going to give you choices

00:03:09   of the styles.

00:03:11   Whereas the traditional way of doing an Apple product is here's the one.

00:03:17   Here's the first one and there's one way.

00:03:18   Right.

00:03:19   And yeah, you're good. It's everybody's gonna have the exact same size and the exact same band and you're gonna like it and that's it

00:03:26   Right, right, right

00:03:28   And it just feels like they've skipped like a year or two and it seems the same way with the SDK

00:03:33   Like I know that it's not truly native apps yet that word

00:03:38   We're just projecting apps from extensions from the iPhone

00:03:41   But that we don't but it's so huge compared to like the iPhone SDK

00:03:45   Right.

00:03:46   Or like when that-- that took like a year or something,

00:03:48   right?

00:03:49   And it was just web apps at first?

00:03:51   Right.

00:03:51   We don't even have the watch yet.

00:03:53   And yet we can start thinking about the apps for it?

00:03:55   Yes.

00:03:56   It seems crazy.

00:03:56   Yeah, that's incredible.

00:03:58   That is-- yeah, I know.

00:03:59   Yeah, that really puts it in perspective, actually.

00:04:01   Because I was kind of like, oh, well, I don't know,

00:04:03   because it's just an extension.

00:04:05   But no, that really puts it in perspective.

00:04:06   Because yeah, especially when you compare it

00:04:09   with the iPhone launch.

00:04:10   And I remember, Nevin, before the SDK was ever even

00:04:14   announced and before they announced anything about third-party apps he was

00:04:17   like oh I'm gonna make a web app for him because I bet that's what they'll I bet

00:04:21   that's what they'll say at first and then it was and people were just so mad

00:04:24   that there wasn't an SDK for a long time I think what made people mad was at

00:04:30   WWDC 2007 and I wrote about this at the time and I but I think what made people

00:04:36   mad wasn't that there that they didn't say look we're we're just not ready for

00:04:41   for it yet and you know in the future you can write apps but you can't do it

00:04:45   yet we're not ready because everybody would have said we're a little

00:04:48   disappointed but we understand but what they did was at WWDCM it was Scott

00:04:52   forestall and they were like we have a really and this was the quote unquote

00:04:56   the words sweet solution for all of you who want to write apps for this phone

00:05:01   and everybody got so excited everybody was ready to stand up everybody was

00:05:05   ready to like storm the stage and then they were like you can write web apps

00:05:08   and it was like yeah and I called it on during fireball I called it a shit

00:05:17   sandwich yes you know I don't think I've ever told this right this is funny so it

00:05:23   that was like I guess Monday because it was the first day of WWDC 2007 and I

00:05:28   called it that a shit sandwich and everybody was disappointed it was

00:05:32   because they set us up by calling it a sweet solution and it's still it was

00:05:38   only like five years since I'd been writing during fireball and I'd had it

00:05:42   was like when I started getting press credentials for the keynotes and stuff

00:05:46   like that but I was a lot less popular than then it during fireballs gotten to

00:05:54   this point and like a day later it was like Tuesday at WWDC and I was riding

00:06:00   the escalator and right behind me was Phil Schiller and I'd never spoken to him face

00:06:06   to face in my life at that point.

00:06:08   I was like, "Holy shit, Phil Schiller."

00:06:11   I was like, "Oh."

00:06:12   So I turned around.

00:06:13   I was like – it was that weird nerd way where it's like at first you think, "I

00:06:19   should introduce myself," and then you think, "Oh my God, no.

00:06:21   No, I should just turn around and be silent."

00:06:24   I was like, "No, I should totally – the professional thing to do would be to introduce

00:06:27   myself because I know he knew my name because I know he sent me email and stuff and I was

00:06:31   like hey I'm John Gruber and he was like oh nice to meet you and then it the first thing

00:06:37   he said to me he goes nice to meet you and he goes I gotta tell you I don't think that's

00:06:40   a shit sandwich.

00:06:41   And I was so totally blown away because I was like no fucking way he read my shit on

00:06:50   the day that I wrote it.

00:06:51   Yeah on the right exactly.

00:06:53   Phil Schiller stays up late and reads your blog.

00:06:55   And then we got in like kind of an argument about like a very, very friendly cordial argument

00:07:00   about whether or not writing web apps for the iPhone was just a shit sandwich.

00:07:04   Right, right.

00:07:05   Well, that's really cool.

00:07:07   That's a fun story.

00:07:08   But anyway, we don't have to write shit sandwiches for the Apple Watch.

00:07:12   Right.

00:07:13   No, yeah.

00:07:14   It's actually pretty awesome.

00:07:17   And so soon too.

00:07:18   I mean, I remember when I was watching the Apple Watch keynote, I was like, "Wait, in

00:07:22   November?

00:07:23   That seems..."

00:07:24   - Yeah, just in comparison, I mean, it just seems really fast

00:07:29   and it's like they were just really thinking about this

00:07:31   from the beginning about how they were gonna get

00:07:35   third party developers involved right away,

00:07:37   which is really cool, really nice to see.

00:07:40   - Yeah, I really think that it shows that it's like,

00:07:44   'cause I know they said when they unveiled it in September

00:07:47   that they've been working on it for three years,

00:07:49   but it makes me think that they've been thinking about stuff

00:07:52   like third-party apps for three years too.

00:07:55   - Oh yeah, definitely.

00:07:57   Yeah.

00:07:58   Well, I'm guessing, yeah,

00:08:00   well, the iOS app store was just,

00:08:02   I mean, it's just sort of changed everything

00:08:04   and influenced them a lot

00:08:07   when building this from the ground up.

00:08:08   'Cause with the iPhone, you know,

00:08:09   they probably, they were just working so hard

00:08:11   to get that first initial product off the ground.

00:08:14   Like they, you know, they had ideas probably

00:08:17   for third-party developer stuff,

00:08:18   but not at the outset.

00:08:21   anyway, not for not for a while. And so, yeah, it's pretty cool

00:08:24   that they could envision that, you know, from from the

00:08:27   beginning with this. And then it makes me wonder, like, well,

00:08:29   what's going on with the Apple TV? Dammit. SDK for the Apple

00:08:33   TV. Anyway, that's it. That's a very different story. But it's

00:08:37   funny. It is funny, though, because it is, you know what,

00:08:41   it's funny, though, because it's that those are the two things

00:08:44   that everybody thinks are next. Well, I mean, obviously, the

00:08:46   watch is definitely next. They've announced it. But you

00:08:49   know all year long people have been thinking you know there's been rumors

00:08:52   that they're gonna do a watch but it's funny because TV and the watch are sort

00:08:59   of the extremes of computing in terms of being like and Apple keeps using this

00:09:07   word intimate that the watch is the most intimate thing they've ever made

00:09:10   intimate intimate intimate they keep using it but it's true it I don't think

00:09:15   that it's I don't think that it's like marketing hype I think I mean and

00:09:20   whether the watch is gonna be nice to be personal yeah because it's so close to

00:09:25   you it's on your skin all the time you know and my and and the TV is the

00:09:33   opposite it is the least intimate computing destination that they could

00:09:38   possibly make because you sit far away from it you know you're you know you you

00:09:43   instead of measuring it in inches you're passively watch things yeah right and

00:09:47   famously you know it's a passive device that you kind of you watch it when you

00:09:52   tune out you know your mind you know kind of blanks when you're watching TV

00:09:55   and so it's kind of funny that those are the two things interesting I don't know

00:10:01   and I wonder though if there's like a design connection between them though

00:10:06   because it does seem though that overall their design aesthetic is sort of

00:10:10   zeroing in on a sort of style. Yeah, that's a good point. And I wonder how that could

00:10:18   be that something is as different as a watch and a TV if they could share a certain aesthetic.

00:10:25   I don't know. Oh, sure. Well, yeah, I would love. I mean, so the the Apple TV finally

00:10:29   got a bit of a UI refresh, but it's not I mean, it's just sort of like a new coat of

00:10:34   paint. It's not for me. I mean, it's just not a big, it's not a huge update. It just

00:10:38   sort of like got rid of the glossiness and it's more in line with like iOS 7 and 8 and

00:10:45   with Yosemite.

00:10:46   But yeah, it would be really cool if it borrowed from the watch's aesthetic.

00:10:52   I mean, so far from screenshots and from the videos I've seen of the watch, it looks beautiful.

00:10:57   I don't know.

00:10:59   And even just things like controlling Apple TV with a watch app, because the iOS app that

00:11:05   controls Apple TV is terrible.

00:11:06   >> I hate it.

00:11:07   I mean, that's one one little bridge. But like yeah if the UI of

00:11:11   Of the TV could somehow be influenced by the watch. That would be great

00:11:14   But I also just see I don't know iOS apps on on the TV would be amazing

00:11:19   I'm just games and all kinds of that. Do you so you have an Apple TV? I do. Yeah, I

00:11:24   every time I mention being frustrated by the

00:11:28   Remote the physical remote that comes with God and I oh I hate that it's infrared because it's like yes like artivo

00:11:37   I think we're like two generations in with a Bluetooth TiVo remote so you don't have

00:11:43   to point the remote at anything and you get used to that.

00:11:46   You get used to not having to point it and the stupid Apple TV remote and I always think

00:11:52   like I'll bet it's the battery.

00:11:53   I'll bet the battery is weak and that's why I can't do it and I'll buy a new stupid little

00:11:59   you know whatever that battery is.

00:12:01   I'll buy a new one, put it in and it's exactly the same and it's not the battery.

00:12:05   It just sucks.

00:12:06   Oh, it's just finicky.

00:12:07   Yeah, that thing is just so and it's I mean it's only like

00:12:10   slightly better than the horrible plastic one that that used to

00:12:14   Come with the Apple TV and with and with Mac books like years ago. Oh the white one, right? Right, and it's just yeah remember

00:12:20   Yeah, um, yeah, just it's no good and we have a Roku 3 as well and um

00:12:25   You know, it's about the same price

00:12:28   I think is the Apple TV and it just like the the interface is is ugly

00:12:32   but it just does so much more and it just makes me kind of sad because the

00:12:35   Controller is also like a game controller and you can plug headphones into it and it's it's not you know sleek and sophisticated

00:12:41   It's sort of chunky and sort of like a friendly design, but it's so much better like as an actual

00:12:46   Remote control it's I don't know kind of makes me sad every time I bring this up

00:12:52   Especially on the show and I know there's people who who are listening right now, and they're already firing up their email

00:12:58   They're already writing the email to me telling me this and I'm telling you right now. Stop. Don't send me the email

00:13:02   They're gonna say oh but use the app for the iPhone the iPhone

00:13:07   Oh the app is terrible app is worse. The app is worse for everything except typing passwords, right?

00:13:14   Oh, yeah, exactly

00:13:15   Well, that's you know

00:13:17   Assuming that the the app will connect with the Apple TV which sometimes mine still doesn't it'll just be like can't find Apple TV

00:13:22   And so it's like okay by the time built the app launches and connects to Apple TV

00:13:27   I could have used a terrible little remote to do whatever it was. I needed to do

00:13:32   But yeah, it's just not I don't know. It's just a stinker. It's

00:13:36   No to me though, it's it's

00:13:39   It's them to me the single biggest deal with Apple TV is the remote honestly

00:13:45   I don't care if they don't I would love it if they added apps. I'd love it if they had an SDK

00:13:50   I don't but if they came out with the exact same looking and and

00:13:56   Logical interface but just had like a Bluetooth remote that just always worked like every time it just worked

00:14:03   Yeah, every time I hit up it goes up and every time I hit down it goes down instead of having to

00:14:07   Point the damn thing. I would be so much happier with it

00:14:12   Yeah

00:14:15   So anyway

00:14:17   I do think I think that the watch could be that could be a huge deal like a watch thing that knows like

00:14:25   And I think this is possible that it could know like

00:14:28   Not just that you're in the same house like on the same Wi-Fi network

00:14:32   But if you're close enough that you could be watching Apple TV

00:14:35   You know so that it really it would know and if there's something playing then the watch could like have the playback controls

00:14:42   Automatically that would be so that'd be so great. Oh, that would be such. Yeah, it would be a game changer

00:14:48   I know that that's a cliche. Yeah, I mean it would just be oh

00:14:53   It would and it's um, I mean it's not far-fetched at all

00:14:56   I mean, it seems like that would be a pretty straightforward

00:14:58   App for them to make even I mean for Apple to release natively on the on the watch would be great

00:15:04   So here's hoping well, I I think Tim Cook said that it I don't know if it was on the Charlie Rose interview

00:15:10   But one of the interviews he said like, you know after they announced the watch and now that he's out and about wearing the watch

00:15:16   He's even said that one of the things he does with it is control his Apple TV. Oh

00:15:22   Yes, oh I didn't yeah, I missed him so it's definitely I mean whether they're going to ship that in the initial version or not

00:15:29   But you know, they're obviously have it working, you know, like as a beta it's already working

00:15:34   Oh good, and I can't help but think that it's the potential is there for it to be

00:15:39   Totally it might require a brand new Apple TV, but if it's still only 99 bucks, it's only 99 bucks

00:15:45   So so what buy a new Apple TV, right? Yeah. Yeah, but if it could be like

00:15:50   You know, I know that you're on your stupid couch watching your stupid TV. So here here's the playback controls for Apple TV pause

00:15:57   And then you can just tap your wrist to pause it and get up and you know, refresh your beverage or whatever

00:16:02   It would be so great. Yeah

00:16:05   Yeah, do you guys make popcorn? Do you make popcorn at home? Oh, yeah, I'd love popcorn

00:16:09   Nevin does not like it because the kernel stuff stick in his teeth, but I'm a big popcorn fan

00:16:15   Can I he is you know, he has he's a very particular man

00:16:20   Can I tell you that I'm 41 years old and I have only like three months ago my mother-in-law

00:16:27   Amy's mom actually gave us this tip and it is like the greatest tip ever it made me think of it because we're

00:16:33   The idea of being lazy and just watching movies on the couch

00:16:36   Do you know this to use coconut oil when you cook your popcorn oh

00:16:42   My god, it is the secret to like what like movie theater popcorn tastes like

00:16:48   Oh, interesting. So okay, it is it would make sense. Yeah, because I know that movie theater

00:16:55   popcorn is usually vegan. So it's maybe that's what they know. It's you don't need anything.

00:16:59   You don't need anything else. All you need is plain popcorn, like just whatever, you

00:17:04   know, you don't have to buy any special popcorn. You buy coconut oil, and just salt and you

00:17:10   put in coconut oil is weird and you buy it and anybody listening who follows this tip,

00:17:15   I'm telling you it's genius.

00:17:16   Nobody told me, that's what she said.

00:17:19   She said, "Just buy coconut oil."

00:17:21   And I went to the supermarket and I look,

00:17:23   and coconut oil is,

00:17:25   it has a melting point of 76 degrees,

00:17:29   so it's gonna be solid.

00:17:30   - Yeah, so it's very, it's like congealed.

00:17:32   - Yeah, it's congealed.

00:17:33   It's more like butter.

00:17:35   Like it's something, you don't pour it, you scoop it.

00:17:38   It's like a, yeah, congealed is the perfect word.

00:17:41   That's normal.

00:17:43   It's exactly right.

00:17:44   you put like two teaspoons of it in your pan and then you put the popcorn in and it makes

00:17:50   popcorn amazing. It's exactly, it is the secret to movie theater like good movie theater popcorn.

00:17:58   I want some popcorn. I have no idea where that aside came from. But it's good. It's

00:18:04   cooking with John Gruber. Yeah, exactly. There's like three things I know how to cook and one

00:18:08   of them is popcorn. And everything I know how to cook is equally simple. I know how

00:18:12   to make coffee. I know how to cook popcorn. And it's just, you know, in the same way that

00:18:17   coffee is just ground up coffee beans and then you pour hot water on top of it. Cooking

00:18:23   popcorn is put coconut oil in a pan and heat it at medium and then pour popcorn in and

00:18:30   salt. So that's the extent of my cooking. I'm not very talented in the kitchen.

00:18:38   Now we just have to find a way to remove all of the little kernel bits.

00:18:44   You know, I did see something.

00:18:45   I saw something at Whole Foods where they're...

00:18:47   I didn't buy it because it's like everything at Whole Foods where it's so expensive.

00:18:52   I was like, "I don't know about this."

00:18:54   There's like a...

00:18:55   I forget the name.

00:18:56   I don't know the name of it.

00:18:57   And if you look at where they sell the unpopped popcorn, they had a special popcorn.

00:19:04   They were indeed very tiny kernels.

00:19:06   It's called like something something little popcorn and it advertises as doesn't get stuck in your teeth

00:19:12   That's that's something something about this special brand of popcorn, which is slightly more

00:19:18   It's not like super expensive, but it's slightly more expensive than regular popcorn

00:19:21   That when it pops there is no nothing is left of the shell the entire shell. I don't know. Oh, yeah

00:19:28   Right. So you may have to get that for an Evan

00:19:31   Yeah, I think I will because I really think he would enjoy popcorn were it not for that

00:19:36   See, I would have thought that he was into popcorn but that it was that he he put like

00:19:40   Crazy flavorings on the popcorn. Oh sure

00:19:43   No, I'm sure that he would really get into that like making you know, like masala popcorn or something, you know, really interesting

00:19:49   But um, he's just yeah, you just can't abide that

00:19:51   That little kernel sticking his teeth it's too much yeah, I can kind of hear that

00:19:57   I do it is sort of the downside to pop everything has a downside though. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it doesn't bother me

00:20:03   It doesn't stop me

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00:23:23   to her nice so here's the thing I've been obsessed most obsessed with with the watch

00:23:28   is the font San Fran now we have oh yeah it's beautiful now we have a name for it San Francisco

00:23:34   So yeah, you like it?

00:23:35   It's pretty. I really like it. I heard from somebody inside

00:23:41   Apple a couple of like after it was announced and before they

00:23:44   gave the name and I was asking like, does anybody know what the

00:23:47   name is? Somebody told me internally they were referring

00:23:50   to it as din vedica.

00:23:52   Which it makes me laugh and I think it's so true because it

00:23:57   feels like two thirds Helvetica one third din, which is for

00:24:03   anybody who doesn't everybody knows Helvetica but din is just capital

00:24:08   letters din I don't even know it stands for but it's like a font from Germany

00:24:12   it's like I think it I think I think I could be making this up but I think it

00:24:18   was created as sort of like a font for signage in Germany at some point and it

00:24:26   really that's what that's what San Francisco looks like it looks like you

00:24:30   know, two thirds, Helvetica one third den. And I think it's very, very, very pleasant.

00:24:34   Mm hmm. It's a really nice sands. And I have been I've been wondering if Apple would make

00:24:41   its own it seems it seems so natural that that that Apple would create its very own,

00:24:46   you know, specialized sensor. And yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, I think one of the things

00:24:53   that's so interesting is so Microsoft has their own UI font seg seg go sing we

00:24:59   segue I don't know how you pronounce it but yeah looks like fruit agar but it's

00:25:05   you know it's what they've used for Metro and all of the modern versions of

00:25:12   Windows and Google has Roboto which is their font for Android and they use it

00:25:20   they use it in their iOS apps - it's like Google's UI font so Microsoft and

00:25:26   Google have their own custom fonts for user interfaces and Apple which is the

00:25:31   most to me clearly the most design oriented of the major tech corporations

00:25:36   has used Helvetica which is a great font but it's funny it's always struck me as

00:25:42   a little I don't know ironic that they don't have their own custom font is

00:25:45   they're so design focused and yeah so it's it's been a long time coming in and

00:25:51   I'm happy that to see it is happening it's interesting to me that it that the

00:25:58   the the kit that you download or the design I really call them design

00:26:02   resources has two versions of San Francisco display and text which is a

00:26:10   lot of design II fonts you know fonts you use for graphic design come with

00:26:15   display and text variants where the smaller sizes are called text and then

00:26:19   at intended for larger sizes you call it display and it changes the kerning and

00:26:25   changes some of the letter shapes I don't know of any UI font that's had

00:26:30   that distinction before right yeah I don't know um did you see there's a

00:26:35   thing at least nothing on us that there well somebody has a github project where

00:26:40   you can they I don't know what what kind of there's some kind of hack you can do

00:26:44   to the font files to say to set certain bits that make it look like the system font and then you can

00:26:50   run you through you install this version of san francisco and reboot your mac and yosemite runs

00:26:58   with that as the system font oh right yes i did i did see that um i mean i didn't i just saw it as

00:27:04   a someone tweeted about it i didn't follow the link um but that's a cool idea i did it i like it

00:27:09   Did you and how's it going?

00:27:12   I ran it for a day and I at first I was very, very excited and I liked it and I kind of had

00:27:19   that feeling like back in the day like 20 years ago when I would run like system extensions that

00:27:25   would change the look of the windows and stuff like that. Oh yeah. You know I totally felt very

00:27:30   cool about it and there are certain things that are definitely nicer about it than Helvetica as a

00:27:35   UI font but overall it's like not quite right it's just a little too I don't know there's

00:27:44   something about it that that doesn't work you know okay it's it's I I know that with the UI version

00:27:53   you know the the UI font in in Yosemite that it's not just plain Helvetica Neue it's it's like a

00:28:00   Yeah, they've tweaked it, you know to their own

00:28:03   you know just to

00:28:06   Make it better for for you somebody in particular in a different sizes make it more legible and the shapes nicer

00:28:13   But yeah, so it's like their own version, but it's still you know, Helvetica it well

00:28:16   It makes me think though that with San Francisco that it makes me appreciate

00:28:20   The way that they've sweated the details to make Helvetica Neue a nicer as the Mac system font and I wouldn't be surprised

00:28:28   if in the future it is the system font on iOS and/or Mac too but when if and

00:28:36   when that happens they're gonna have to put that same amount of work into

00:28:40   tweaking it to make it perfect for it yeah I was gonna say you know like

00:28:44   they'll probably have to tweak it a lot because yeah if San Francisco as it

00:28:48   exists now is made specifically for the Apple Watch I mean it's made for this

00:28:53   tiny screen and they haven't really put a lot of work into making it viewable

00:28:57   You know and the larger sizes that you would use

00:28:59   On the Mac or an iOS so right that would be I don't know I could see it working nicely

00:29:06   You know yeah, if they if they did tweak it, but you'd see it working nicely as a system phone

00:29:11   I think it's some weird combination of like how many pixels high the font is

00:29:16   Combined with the physical size like if you measure with an actual ruler how big it's going to be

00:29:23   When you look at it like it's not just like oh make

00:29:26   16 point font look perfect. It's make 16 point font look perfect at a

00:29:34   Quarter of an inch high as opposed to like on the watch where it's going to be much smaller

00:29:39   Right on the watch. It seems like it's really I don't know

00:29:44   I remember being blown away by it in the

00:29:46   Presentation and then at the event when I actually got to look at the watch the actual watches, you know hands-on it looks so cool

00:29:55   Seems so long. It looks amazing. I can't wait to actually get my hands on one and and see what it's like

00:29:59   Yeah, it's been nice an adjustment away from Lucy to grand at first

00:30:03   It was strange on on Mac like oh wow

00:30:06   There's just tell that I get everywhere and and some of the you know

00:30:10   Especially like the first release like with iOS as well like there are just some

00:30:14   Sizes at which like it wasn't really working for me at first, but I feel like now

00:30:18   Like I don't know it's it's working really well as the system thought on the Mac. Yeah, I

00:30:25   I definitely I like it but it's mmm it's been in a job as somebody who obsesses

00:30:31   over type it's been an adjustment like sure and you know Lucida worked Lucida

00:30:41   grand grande it is another one of those things I have no idea I always got Lucy

00:30:44   to grand yeah I'm not sure if I'm saying right now yeah like do you pronounce the

00:30:48   E on grande grande grande grande yeah I don't know what do you say it Starbucks

00:30:54   it's Grande right yeah yeah I mean if it was in Spanish it would definitely be

00:30:59   Grande but yeah well whatever it's called it it especially worked well at

00:31:05   small sizes like you know that the the hinting work that Apple did and who you

00:31:11   know the the people who made lucid in the first place intending it to be a

00:31:15   great screen fun it really really worked well at very small sizes like for like

00:31:22   when you're setting like a preferences dialogue and there's small text underneath a control

00:31:28   that explains what that setting, in detail, what that setting does. Lucida works so well

00:31:34   at that. Whenever I see that now in Helvetica on Yosemite, sometimes it looks a little weird.

00:31:40   Not that it looks bad, but it somehow looks, it strikes me as a little, it just feels funny.

00:31:46   But I'm getting used to it.

00:31:47   Let's talk about Yosemite.

00:31:50   So what are, as a UI designer, what is your overall impression now that we're a couple,

00:31:57   you know, Yosemite has kind of settled in, you know, what are your impressions overall?

00:32:02   You know, I really like it.

00:32:05   Everything feels very light and it sort of, for me, it feels like it's going along with

00:32:08   like the, you know, ever increasing thinness of the actual hardware and it just sort of

00:32:15   like helps everything feel.

00:32:16   I mean, I like that they preserve the depth with the drop shadows on all of the windows

00:32:22   themselves, but then having the sort of translucency vibrancy stuff everywhere.

00:32:29   At first it felt like overkill to me, but as I've sort of adjusted to it, I like it.

00:32:33   It feels like, yeah, everything is like these nice little panes of glass hovering over each

00:32:38   other and, you know, I think it feels good.

00:32:41   What I really like a lot though is all of the really small subtle animations that they've

00:32:46   added everywhere that they're not big and flashy and they're not slow.

00:32:50   They're really subtle, again.

00:32:52   So it's like you wouldn't really notice it too much.

00:32:55   But things like checking a checkbox just animates in a nice, friendly little way.

00:33:01   Just even things like choosing something from a context menu is just slightly different.

00:33:06   It's just a little bit more alive, a little springier, if that makes sense.

00:33:11   And so I feel like with Yosemite, they've made it so you're a little bit more connected

00:33:17   to the UI, if that makes sense.

00:33:20   After years of touch screens and feeling really connected to that, I was feeling like with

00:33:26   Mavericks even, just feeling a little set back from the Mac, especially because you

00:33:31   use a mouse or a trackpad.

00:33:32   But yeah, I don't know.

00:33:34   I feel like Yosemite is more...

00:33:37   I feel more connected to it.

00:33:38   I like it.

00:33:39   Yeah.

00:33:40   - It's a good point with the animation.

00:33:42   And I feel like it's interesting because clearly

00:33:46   the iPhone and iOS, where Apple really got into that sort of

00:33:51   make things, the things you interact with on the device

00:33:55   feel alive and feel like real things.

00:33:59   But they didn't do an iOS inspired Mac UI until now.

00:34:06   Like they skipped that whole iOS one to six era

00:34:11   in terms of like bringing those ideas to the Mac.

00:34:14   And they waited until after iOS seven.

00:34:18   And I--

00:34:19   - Well, there was some, I mean, you know,

00:34:20   like the textural stuff was definitely bleeding over

00:34:23   into the Mac, right?

00:34:24   - Yeah, but not what you see, but you know what I mean?

00:34:27   Yeah, I agree.

00:34:27   You mean like with like the trackpad

00:34:29   and like with the gestures you can do on the mouse?

00:34:32   - Yeah, yeah.

00:34:33   - Right.

00:34:33   - But also like there were,

00:34:34   and there were more like textures and things

00:34:36   in actual in apps like it was starting to take on Oh texture more because I see

00:34:40   I thought you said gesture yeah yeah oh just real - though yeah yeah I mean and

00:34:45   I actually have really enjoyed that I'm really glad that that you know magic

00:34:48   mouse and the trackpad allow so many gestures now a little bit but I don't

00:34:53   know I don't know that the textures I think the Mac was going in that way

00:34:57   anyway you know that that with Mac OS X sure I feel like what what what Yosemite

00:35:04   ads that's new is like what you said where where there's subtle animations

00:35:08   you know like like when you click a pop-up menu and it just grows the menu

00:35:13   grows out of the the pop-up button I it's such a nice little touch I'm a

00:35:19   couple people complain to me about that one but I really that's one of the

00:35:23   things about Yosemite that I enjoy I really like that animation where the

00:35:26   menu it grows I don't know how else to say it it just grows out of the button

00:35:31   it grows and then yeah when you make your selection there's just a little bit

00:35:35   more feedback it's just like this slight little like like flash like it's like

00:35:39   yes you know I've seen your input and I've responded to it you know that sort

00:35:43   of thing it just feels more yes like slakes it's slightly more alive now yeah

00:35:49   that's it's so funny that you made that noise because it doesn't make noise but

00:35:53   that is what it feels like no doodoo yeah like there is that sort of feeling

00:35:58   to it do you feel though as a designer that it is that you have like to redo

00:36:07   everything or do you feel that it's not that much work to to get like rogue

00:36:14   amoeba's apps looking perfect on Yosemite is it a restart yeah I mean

00:36:21   there's definitely gonna be a lot of I mean if we did nothing else it would

00:36:23   just have to be a lot of like reskinning everything and I don't I don't think

00:36:28   we're not going to dive into the translucency stuff too much, at least not with the next

00:36:37   few iterations of our apps. We're going to be in the middle there and make things look

00:36:45   at home on Yosemite. Hopefully. That's the goal, anyway. Make things look at home on

00:36:51   Yosemite but still look like our stuff if that makes sense and yeah so not whole hog

00:36:58   into it.

00:36:59   I feel I feel yeah I do I feel because I feel like somehow like going from iOS six to iOS

00:37:05   seven for most apps was like you really had to redo the whole thing to make it feel oh

00:37:11   yeah definitely whereas I feel like going from pre Yosemite Mac app to Yosemite it's

00:37:19   really it to me it's more subtle yeah it's a lot more subtle I think it's a

00:37:25   lot less yeah it's a lot more subtle it's a lot less work and it just depends

00:37:28   on your app though um like something like fission I feel like would would

00:37:32   benefit from just a little bit of reskinning but then something like piezo

00:37:35   which I still love my little recording app it's it's very you know it's all

00:37:43   skeuomorphic and and cutesy and whimsical so so it just depends on the

00:37:48   app and how much like how far in either direction it already was to begin with I guess and some

00:37:54   things will take more work and other things less work but yeah no I yeah like I feel like

00:38:02   piezo is a good example though because piezo you know and I know that this word gets over

00:38:07   used but it's skeuomorphic and I Paul just I think was Paul who just blogged about it

00:38:12   I saw the post but it was a like celebrating

00:38:15   Like an anniversary or something, but it was you know mentioning mentioning the old Braun physical

00:38:23   Radio that sort of inspired the look of it

00:38:26   right and

00:38:28   Which is a beautiful device super beautiful device. Mm-hmm

00:38:32   I kind of feel like which they gave me so sorry the anniversary was my five-year anniversary and they gave me the brown

00:38:40   Radio that inspired piezo which was an incredible gift. Yeah, I'm just throwing that in there about how awesome you know what?

00:38:45   He's you know, he's not awesome. He's kind of yeah, he's kind of a dick

00:38:49   Because he's so awesome. He's also he's also a good guy

00:38:53   No

00:38:53   the the problem is he comes up with clever ideas like that and

00:38:57   Then it makes you know, it makes the rest of us look bad who don't have clever gift ideas

00:39:01   It's true like my my idea of a good gift would be like like a gift card for the iTunes store

00:39:07   Like here go by you know, go by the new levels for Monument Valley.

00:39:15   And whereas Paul kafassas comes up with a brilliant idea, like the actual 1968 radio

00:39:23   that inspired piezo, and then ships it to you.

00:39:26   Yeah.

00:39:27   Which is Yeah, terrible, because it's so it's so wonderful that it's terrible.

00:39:33   Because it makes Yeah, like, who can tap that?

00:39:34   Right?

00:39:35   Yeah.

00:39:36   platelets this week. Just the nicest guy ever. He's a great

00:39:42   guy. And it's too much. Yeah, exactly.

00:39:45   Exactly. He's giving you a wonderful gift while his other

00:39:49   arm like from one hand on his phone while the other harm is is

00:39:52   donating platelets. Terrible. Right? Exactly. But I don't you

00:39:57   I do feel though that I can app like piezo kids gets away with

00:40:02   the the skeuomorphic gimmickry still on Yosemite in a way that like on the iPhone with iOS

00:40:10   seven, that sort of thing looks dated. I don't know there's something exactly Yeah, well,

00:40:15   I still feel like Yeah, I feel like because I think it's just that like the the Mac is

00:40:21   such a it's just a much more broad platform. It's just there's a lot more variation I think

00:40:27   between apps and yeah, and so it can still,

00:40:31   like I've been using it this whole time

00:40:33   and it's still a cutesy for me.

00:40:36   I'm still sort of like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have gone

00:40:38   so skeuomorphic with it, but that's me

00:40:40   with every single thing I design.

00:40:41   Like, you know, if it's over three months old,

00:40:43   I'm like, oh, maybe I shouldn't have done that.

00:40:45   But yeah, I feel like it can still be at home on Yosemite,

00:40:50   whereas yeah, anything that's super textured

00:40:55   and detailed like that on iOS,

00:40:57   It just looks like iOS 6 and it looks really out of place.

00:41:01   - Yeah, it's funny because there's so many more

00:41:06   iOS users than Mac users.

00:41:08   I don't know, maybe by a factor of 10 at least.

00:41:11   But it just seems curious to me that iOS is where Apple

00:41:16   seems to be more radical with their UI design,

00:41:22   where the pre-iOS 7 UI aesthetic for iOS

00:41:26   was way more skeuomorphic and more textured

00:41:29   and had more like, oh, this looks like a pane of glass

00:41:33   with a glossy effect on it.

00:41:36   And it's bubbly and it's textured

00:41:39   and the texture is really, really rich,

00:41:43   way more over the top than the Mac ever got.

00:41:46   And then when they went the other way,

00:41:47   they went way more radically in the direction of,

00:41:51   okay, no textures, no 3D effects.

00:41:54   This is I know again, it's overuse word, but this is flat

00:41:57   You know the buttons don't even have outlines. They're just text

00:42:02   Right. Oh, man. It's just that it's not even a button. Yeah, and the Mac it both ways

00:42:10   It never it's it's way more conservative to me

00:42:13   It never went that texture before and now with Yosemite where they've sort of updated it for a modern

00:42:18   look, it's it's nowhere near as radical as iOS seven. And I think it's it's more more pleasing

00:42:24   overall. Oh, definitely. And I think if they really benefited from having, you know, done iOS

00:42:29   seven, you know, before you have somebody and so they sort of, I mean, this is my I'm just,

00:42:35   it's all conjecture, but I'm just guessing, you know, that they, they had all of that experience

00:42:39   and were like, Okay, well, let's, it's like the pendulum sort of swung too far in that direction.

00:42:44   like that. Let's get let's strip everything down to really, really minimalist design. And it's like,

00:42:49   okay, well, maybe that was a little too far. And then Yosemite feels like just just nudging it back

00:42:53   just far enough so that it's comfortable. And yeah, and buttons look like buttons. And there

00:42:59   are slight gradients here and there. Yeah, it's nice. And I think it works. I think it works in

00:43:06   some ways better. And I think that's why it feels more accommodating to a broader range of styles.

00:43:14   Sure. That it's still, you know, like I said, like it still feels like a system where Piezo, as it is, without any kind of, you know, new Yosemite update, still looks, it still looks right. It still looks like that's, you know, acceptable.

00:43:28   Right. Yeah. I hope so anyway.

00:43:31   I thought it was interesting. I that's sort of you know, I think I've touched on this before but like before they unveiled

00:43:39   Yosemite and everybody kind of knew of course, they're going to do some sort of

00:43:43   ios 7 style update for the Mac I

00:43:46   Really was braced for it to be a lot more radical

00:43:50   I really thought that they were gonna flatten everything more

00:43:54   You know like and like you even said like where they still have the shadow effects between windows to show you what's in front of

00:44:00   I thought maybe they'd get rid of stuff like that. Yeah, me too. Yeah, and they didn't.

00:44:06   And it even really surprises me that they still have so many settings and system preferences

00:44:14   that let you the user, you know, change things like I kind of I would have bet a year ago

00:44:21   that the the iOS seven style update to Mac OS would have gotten rid of like, the ability

00:44:29   to change the appearance color, like blue and graphite.

00:44:32   - Oh, right, yeah, between blue and graphite, yeah.

00:44:35   Right, and you can go, it's interesting

00:44:37   that they provided the dark theme too.

00:44:40   It's sort of, that came out of nowhere

00:44:41   because it just seems very counter

00:44:44   to what Apple's done for the last few years,

00:44:47   just not allowing much appearance specialization

00:44:52   or customization, so having a secondary dark theme.

00:44:56   And then, of course, we were talking before about the reduced

00:45:01   transparency and increased contrast.

00:45:04   Well, I don't know.

00:45:05   It's not really a hack.

00:45:06   The accessibility preferences that you

00:45:09   can do to change the whole look is as a thing

00:45:13   that now people are doing to customize the look themselves,

00:45:16   which is fun.

00:45:18   And I did that for a while.

00:45:19   It was fun.

00:45:20   Yeah, so what it is is in System Preferences,

00:45:23   if you haven't done this in System Preferences,

00:45:26   It's not in the general pane where you set most of the UI stuff.

00:45:30   It's in accessibility.

00:45:31   >> Right, it's in accessibility.

00:45:32   >> And you can check reduce transparency, and

00:45:37   then you can also check increase contrast.

00:45:40   And increase contrast is the really interesting one to me.

00:45:45   >> Yes, me too.

00:45:47   Yeah, and actually if you select increase contrast,

00:45:49   it will automatically select reduce transparency.

00:45:52   >> Yes.

00:45:53   >> It's so fun.

00:45:55   Hey, and it's it's kind of wild like and you and I before the show we were

00:46:02   Emailing or chatting or whatever whatever the kids do

00:46:06   But but we both said the same thing like at the same time

00:46:11   Which is that it looks sort of like like some kind of alternate universe

00:46:15   where the original like 1990s Mac OS

00:46:21   Like evolved through to today's display technology, you know that right just completely linearly like yeah

00:46:29   Like blue never happened. Like there was nothing ever like big and puffy or whimsical anywhere. I just sort of like stayed with the

00:46:34   You know dark outlines around buttons and and things just sort of got more streamlined and sleek sort of and then like the yeah

00:46:42   system font changed from

00:46:45   Chicago to

00:46:47   Helvetica it's just yeah, it's so interesting to use though, and it's actually really pleasant

00:46:52   I really enjoyed enjoyed having that preference. It's on there

00:46:54   I I used it for a while

00:46:57   I maybe even close to a week and then I changed turned it off and now now that we're talking I did it again

00:47:01   And I'm looking at it. I'm like

00:47:03   I

00:47:05   Really like it. Yeah, and if you set your desktop background to like a dark gray, then you're just yeah

00:47:10   It just feels like an old Mac. It's really fun

00:47:14   It's a really neat effect and and school you sent me the screenshot everybody does I get it on Twitter like every three days from

00:47:21   Somebody or they're like what what the what the hell's going on with this is when you do things like

00:47:26   What are the ways that you can bring it up like if you change the volume?

00:47:29   yeah, yeah, if you if you mute your your volume and like there's a

00:47:33   That icon is sort of I guess it has

00:47:36   Blank pixels and and it just gives a black background where there should just be blank pixels and it's like oh man

00:47:43   What happened there? Yeah, it's like when you're just like there's like goofy little things like that. There's a few like

00:47:48   buttons in like

00:47:51   Sometimes finder buttons are in like save dialogues

00:47:53   Like the the buttons will be like a skew when they're when you're in this mode and I'm not sure why that happens

00:47:59   But yeah, it's just there's a few little quirky things that happen. Yeah, there's like just a couple of weird

00:48:05   Glitches it I mean they're technically bugs. Yeah, but it glitched. Yeah glitched feels like a better word

00:48:11   Yeah, it's like when you change the volume. It's like

00:48:14   the the little I

00:48:17   Don't even know what you would call it

00:48:19   Is it a like the little transparent heads-up display that that shows you?

00:48:23   What the volume level is at as you're hitting the buttons on your your keyboard has round rounded corners

00:48:30   And it's like when you turn this mode on they get completely squared off into perfect squares

00:48:37   But the difference between the round rack corners and the truly perfect squares is just filled in with black and it looks really

00:48:44   Yeah, it's really kind of

00:48:46   It's gross it's gross let's face it it looks broken

00:48:50   Yeah

00:48:51   It's like your Mac is looking at you and it has something in its teeth and you're you want to like save

00:48:56   You want to just look at it and be like?

00:49:03   Yeah, it upsets the perfectionist in me, but overall though

00:49:07   I kind of think it's a better look than the default Yosemite look which I which in turn I do kind of like

00:49:14   But I feel like this is even better. Yeah, it's um

00:49:17   It's really clean and and everything is like super obvious

00:49:22   which I like and and things just really stand out well and

00:49:26   Yeah, I like the the higher contrast. It's nice

00:49:31   Looks good. Oh man, so I mean it's just one random little thing unrelated to

00:49:35   most everything else but what the home like the thing that bugs me the most and it's such a

00:49:40   Such a stupid little thing is like the the forward and back buttons in Safari and finder just those navigational buttons

00:49:46   They used to be a segmented button

00:49:48   Do you know what I mean? Like the it's like a it used to be yeah, they used to be triangles now

00:49:53   They're like back and left and right carrots. But anyway

00:49:57   The they're like very close together and they're rounded rectangles and they just they don't quite touch and oh that bugs me so much

00:50:04   Yeah, yeah, and they kind of

00:50:06   But no, I know exactly what you mean is that they also sort of in in the middle where they meet

00:50:12   There's there's like a little like a butt crack. I

00:50:15   Don't know. Yeah, exactly like they're not they're not

00:50:19   Yeah

00:50:19   and if they were and if they were touching they'd still have their

00:50:22   Rounded rectangle edges like just meeting up in a weird way and it's why isn't that a segmented button anymore?

00:50:28   Like what happened, right?

00:50:29   It used to just be anyway, or just like put them slightly farther apart or just make it a segmented button

00:50:34   I don't know exactly but it's like they've

00:50:36   They've tried to split the difference in a weird way where it doesn't look like yeah again

00:50:41   And again that I think that's the actual like that's actually what you call it in Xcode is a segmented button

00:50:46   And but that's what it used to look like. It just looked like a button

00:50:51   With segments to divide it whereas now it looks like two buttons that were

00:50:56   Inappropriately tut placed right next to each other. Yes, exactly. Oh irks me so much anyway

00:51:03   Most other things are formidable and yeah, no, I totally agree with that. I don't I don't like that. There's like a yeah like a plumbers

00:51:12   Butt crack that you see at the top and the thing I don't it bothers me

00:51:16   Yes

00:51:18   Let me thank our second sponsor

00:51:20   I'll take a break and then we'll I want to ask you about

00:51:22   Remind me because I always forget after I do these sponsor reads. I want to talk to you about icons

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00:54:42   up so my thanks to Linda calm for sponsoring the show all right icons let's talk about

00:54:49   icons I got sure so that's one of the areas like I mentioned before where I sort of expected

00:54:56   Yosemite to go in an iOS iOS style way where I kind of was thinking that they're going

00:55:02   to say, "Okay, now all icons have to be circles," or something like that.

00:55:07   Oh, I know that would be awful.

00:55:09   Yeah, no, I'm so glad they didn't.

00:55:12   I mean, there are plenty of circles all around the UI, but I'm so happy that they're still

00:55:17   using objects in a lot of places.

00:55:20   I mean, they do still.

00:55:21   They are using a lot of circles and a lot of the tilted rectangle, basically.

00:55:28   I'm liking I like that they stuck with a lot of you know objects or

00:55:32   representational more representational things and just made them in sort of a

00:55:35   pared-down simplified style so that they sort of look like Yosemite but they're

00:55:40   still sort of fun shapes and they're not all they're not all one shape that's

00:55:44   that makes me happy yeah I it makes me when it when they showed it to us and

00:55:50   you know one of the things I noticed was you know even in the like default Apple

00:55:56   dock when you have a fresh install of Yosemite there's a variety of icon styles so you can see

00:56:02   right away that there's no just one style and I you know write it right in the keynote I thought

00:56:08   oh that's great I was totally wrong about that and then I started like questioning myself I was like

00:56:12   well why did I think they were going to do that like I kind of thought you know why did I expect

00:56:17   that like because it makes me think like oh of course they wouldn't do that because it wouldn't

00:56:22   work on the Mac. But somehow I was dreading it and expected them to do that.

00:56:27   Well, yeah, and there are, I mean, I don't think that's sort of far-fetched because, yeah, in some

00:56:34   ways I could see that making sense. But I'm so glad that that's not the way things went because

00:56:38   having a dock full of circles would be really annoying. You'd have to use, you know, you'd have

00:56:45   to really use color and have a very clear, very simple icon, you know, like iconic shape inside

00:56:51   of your circle to identify your app and yeah I think it would just be really

00:56:56   sort of bland and and kind of annoying to sort of figure out what is what just

00:57:01   at a glance so I'm happy they they kept their they kept the idea of different

00:57:06   shapes and using a lot of physical objects but just um yeah just sort of

00:57:12   reskin them and there's a lot more texture and depth to them even again

00:57:18   Even just the ones from Apple let alone, you know third parties who can do whatever they want

00:57:22   But even the Apple ones have more texture and depth than the icons on iOS. Oh by far. Yeah. Yeah so much

00:57:28   It's yeah, it's great. But it's still um, you know at the same time it still look it's definitely pared down unless you know, bleep

00:57:34   then

00:57:35   Then previous Mac icons like I was I was actually so I was just home in Florida visiting my mom and she's still running Mavericks and

00:57:42   Yeah, I was really just sort of like oh, yeah

00:57:45   wow, look at all these icons. Everything is so shiny. Just giving the icons a subtle makeover

00:57:53   so that everything is more matte and less glossy and just tweaking the colors and the lighting and

00:58:00   shapes and sort of flattening things out, reducing perspective on the rectangles that are tilted,

00:58:08   that sort of thing. Yeah, I think it's helped. It's a good compromise. It's a good middle ground,

00:58:14   I think I still have one of my machines the it's actually a machine I use to record podcasts is still running mavericks

00:58:21   So I still see it. It's a MacBook Air

00:58:23   Okay, and it it like increasingly as like week by week

00:58:28   It just looks like older and older and older. It looks it looks silly at this point. Yeah

00:58:33   In particular

00:58:37   To me it the icons really really stand out like like the finder icon. It's like why?

00:58:44   I don't know.

00:58:45   Why is there big glass in here?

00:58:47   Right.

00:58:48   Why did they make it look like it's made out of glass?

00:58:50   I don't get it.

00:58:51   Like there still is a lighting effect.

00:58:53   Like on the new one in Yosemite, there's a very nice lighting effect that looks like

00:58:56   there's light coming down from the top.

00:58:59   It has texture.

00:59:00   It has depth.

00:59:01   But the one I'm looking at them side by side right now, it's like the Mavericks one has

00:59:07   this glass effect that just looks so like I can't say it better than blingy.

00:59:12   Is it the exact right word? Yeah, and it's like why why did we do that?

00:59:16   It's like looking back at like high school pictures and it's like why did I have a mullet?

00:59:21   Why did we think that looked good, right?

00:59:24   the other one that really stands out to me is the App Store icon and

00:59:29   Like I think iTunes used the same stuff, but it's like iTunes was updated now that it's like iTunes has the Yosemite icon

00:59:36   even on the old system, but like the App Store icon is

00:59:38   this circle, you know with

00:59:42   Just an incredible amount of like gloss and glass sort of

00:59:47   Light. Oh, yes. Yeah, it's like has like rays and yeah, it has like this. Yeah

00:59:52   Yeah, at least the old one had like it was all of this light and sort of in depth to it

00:59:58   And the new one is just like, you know subtle gradient

01:00:01   The be iconic, you know App Store there just generic application icon and yeah big change

01:00:09   Do you when you guys are working on apps?

01:00:11   Do you do you get to work on the app icon right away or do you wait and is the you know?

01:00:17   Is that something you do later in the process? Um, it just depends on the app

01:00:21   Like we're already working on a new app

01:00:24   I'm not allowed to talk about and I've already made the icon for it and you've you know

01:00:27   Pretty much decided like yes, this is the final version of the icon. I

01:00:31   Think it just depends on where where developers are sort of like we go through wireframes and we get things

01:00:38   you know pretty much where we think they should be and then

01:00:41   There's a lot more back-end work and then it's sort of like, okay

01:00:44   Well, here's a thing that I can do in the meantime

01:00:46   I mean we have we have a lot of apps and I'm the only designer

01:00:49   So I'm sort of always rotating around what I'm working on

01:00:52   But yeah, it just depends on on the app at which point we do the icon

01:00:57   There's not there's not a hard and fast like time that we that we do, right?

01:01:01   You can always change it later

01:01:02   But I find with most designers who I know that they they can't stand working on an app until they have something

01:01:08   that could plausibly be the app icon you know like oh right oh yeah bugs me so

01:01:14   much when there's just like some placeholder art from the developer oh

01:01:18   let me at least make yeah we're out you know I'll at least make you know

01:01:22   something like here this this might this might be a right like in other words the

01:01:27   best way to get some sort of plausible app icon idea out of you would be to

01:01:33   make a have engineering create a build where the icon is just like a you know

01:01:40   some clip art from the internet because it'll it because then as soon as you see

01:01:44   it you'll be like I need to immediately drop everything and make something so

01:01:48   that the next bill yes oh man but I'm so not allowed to do that oh yeah I have to

01:01:54   get because that is exactly what I would do and then so yeah I have to sort of be

01:02:00   Rained in on that. I was like, no you can't work on the icon right now

01:02:03   You have like three other things you need to do

01:02:05   That's so hard

01:02:07   We really need this signup dialogue done because we can't use the app until we have a signup dialogue right now

01:02:13   No, I have got to yeah, I have to fix this icon, right?

01:02:16   Yeah, we have yeah, there's a lot of

01:02:19   Prioritizing like we often shit have different

01:02:24   priorities as far as that goes like I don't want to work on the

01:02:29   Boring network when preferences window, you know, I want to make the icon but that's you know, that's how it goes. I

01:02:37   don't know I

01:02:40   Icons to me it's it's funny because I I've always said this I think people argue about icons more than any other thing in

01:02:48   Software design. I don't even say user interfaces on all the software design because it's the one it's the one thing that

01:02:56   Even if you're not a designer, it's just a single point of entry and it represents the whole app. So it is important and

01:03:04   Oh, it's hugely important. Yeah, it's how you identify the app. It's how when you're just you know switching back and forth

01:03:11   Between apps it's like how you quickly at a glance see what that app is

01:03:15   Reminds users. Yeah, I don't know I have I could launch it. So it's definitely important extremely, but it's not truly as important as the amount of

01:03:25   argument that happens over

01:03:27   Changes to icons like people are still sure people are still bitching about the new icons in Yosemite

01:03:33   You know because you can't please everybody all the time. Oh

01:03:37   Sure, so I think the icons overall I think they look much better but like for example, here's oh, yeah

01:03:44   I like most of well, here's one that I don't like I don't like the system preferences icon

01:03:50   Yeah, it's sort of it's kind of bland

01:03:53   Yeah, and it's it's got like too strong of a lighting effect and too realistic of a gear. It's like

01:04:00   Super photo it doesn't fit with the it doesn't fit with the others. Yeah, it's

01:04:05   Somehow I don't know it looks to me. Yeah. Well, it looks about the gradient especially like the gradient that's on the gear

01:04:13   it just looks very like

01:04:16   It's kind of an uncanny valley like between the subtle gradients on everything else and then like trying to go more photo realistic

01:04:22   Because it's not photo realistic enough to be like the old blingy style

01:04:25   But it's more photo realistic than the other gradients used elsewhere on other app icons

01:04:32   And so yeah

01:04:33   It's just kind of weird and then just like having it being just like the the gear being in a circle in a box like that

01:04:39   Gray outer box is very bland and very boring to them

01:04:42   Yeah, yeah, and I feel the other thing I dislike is is the Safari icon still they like it better than the one on iOS but

01:04:49   You know that's interesting because I like the new Safari icon do you yeah, I do I don't know

01:04:58   But I also wish that it was on iOS I wish that they would yeah I

01:05:06   The I guess it sort of is reminiscent of the one on iOS

01:05:10   but the thing I don't like about the iOS one is that the iOS one is is a circle and

01:05:17   They've just put the circle in the in a white square

01:05:22   Right. I always call them squares and it whisk is always correct me that they're they're technically what is their super ellipses?

01:05:30   Yeah, super ellipses

01:05:32   Yes

01:05:35   They wanted to be so I don't know why not just make the compass be the super ellipse

01:05:41   You know make the whole thing blue and put the the compass dial on that why put the circle in the square?

01:05:48   It just seems exactly yeah seems forced to me

01:05:52   And well into like the the lighting effects and the coloring and the gradient on the on the one on the Mac is is nicer

01:06:00   Maybe there's just more detail there. It's sharper cleaner, but yeah, it's weird

01:06:05   I'm just right wasn't the old didn't the old Safari icon on iOS didn't it fill the entire?

01:06:09   Rounded rectangle at that point. It was a random rectangle. I think so. I could be wrong

01:06:15   Yeah, I think that it did don't make and then yeah

01:06:18   And then they they did yeah that the circle inside the square because that outer white square that this compass is sitting in

01:06:24   It doesn't really do anything or make any sense

01:06:26   it just forces that

01:06:29   the entire icon to be sort of smaller, so

01:06:32   Yeah, I'm looking at an old screenshot from iOS 6 and yes the old Safari icon the whole the blue filled filled the whole square

01:06:43   Right. Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay. Yeah

01:06:46   I feel like all they needed to do is just redraw do it the same way and just redraw it without yeah

01:06:50   Just redraw it and just yeah make it. Yeah, exactly

01:06:53   Just make it Matt make it a look at home on Iowa 7 and 8 and that's all they need you do but

01:06:59   But here we are. It just seems to me though that people people bitch about icons and

01:07:04   as we sit here and bitch about icons and I

01:07:08   Bitch about icons, but like I feel like people bitch about them

01:07:13   disproportionately to to how much they actually have to deal with them because it's so easily

01:07:19   Encapsulated, you know, it's it's like as a designer

01:07:23   It's the same thing when you ever you pick a color and it's like you'll get into arguments with you know

01:07:31   Whether it's like a client

01:07:33   Relationship or whether it's like, you know

01:07:35   Like with you like where you're full-time at a place

01:07:38   But I think you can get an argument over a color that will last for hours because it's so easily and comp

01:07:45   You know, there's there's no subtlety to it

01:07:48   You can just say I don't like that color and then all of a sudden exactly, you know

01:07:53   your two people are jointly using the color picker to pick a new color and it just goes

01:07:58   on and on and on. And icons are like that.

01:08:01   >> Oh, definitely. Yes, yes. And everyone has a very strong opinion about them. Like

01:08:05   there's no one, yeah, there's no one who doesn't want to weigh in. Whereas, you know, if you're

01:08:11   designing like a sidebar or something like that, people are, you know, less interested

01:08:16   I guess. But everyone wants to give their input when it's the icon. And, you know, I

01:08:19   It makes sense because it is

01:08:21   You know the gateway to the app and the thing that represents the app as a whole so it is

01:08:26   You know, it's a really important thing and it tends to be more fun and more interesting. I think so people

01:08:32   Just jump on that

01:08:34   Yeah, it's like with us like you're designing a sidebar and you need like a gear button to get to you know

01:08:42   Settings for the sidebar and it's like is it lower right?

01:08:46   Is it lower left and and if you put it in the lower right of the sidebar and somebody thinks it should be lower left

01:08:52   They'll just say like gently like I don't know. Maybe this I don't know if that's right

01:08:56   It feels like maybe it'd be more natural more natural if it was in the lower left and they'll say it like, you know

01:09:01   Like an open-ended question like that. Whereas if they don't like the icon they'll be like this icon is terrible

01:09:06   Oh, it is makes my eyes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. Yeah

01:09:11   totally you you don't get like the subtle sort of you know

01:09:15   Maybe kind of do something different feedback with icons that you get with other things like should it be lower left lower right?

01:09:24   Should we draw a box around these controls because they're grouped together, you know things like that

01:09:30   Everybody, you know sort of does that in a more? I don't know

01:09:34   It's the feedbacks always a little bit more humane with stuff like that. Yeah, it's true. Definitely

01:09:41   People get very opinionated and very passionate about their icons.

01:09:46   Oh, one thing about icons that, I mean, and this isn't, I mean, it's not about icon design,

01:09:51   but just one subtle little thing about Yosemite that I'm kind of sad about is when you drag

01:09:56   an icon out of the dock, it doesn't do the little poof animation anymore, but you still

01:10:00   have the poof sound.

01:10:01   It goes poof, but instead it just says remove.

01:10:04   There's like a little pop-up that hovers over that says remove and then you drag it away

01:10:07   And it does the little poof sound but you don't get that little like puff of smoke animation, you know

01:10:12   That's all yeah, you know that it's I don't think that I'm doing it right now

01:10:18   I don't think I've removed anything from my dog

01:10:21   Somebody until just now I just noticed this weird remove thing

01:10:26   Yeah, yeah, it's just it's a it's a little I mean, maybe it's more obvious. Um

01:10:30   But come on, I mean the the smoke was it was whimsical they could have made it

01:10:35   I mean, they could have changed it, like,

01:10:37   so it matched somebody or something.

01:10:38   I don't know.

01:10:39   I like, I do like, like in Launchpad,

01:10:42   they kept the little, they kept a bit of whimsy there

01:10:44   by having like the little sparklies around a new app

01:10:48   that you haven't launched yet.

01:10:49   - Yes. - Like in Launchpad.

01:10:50   Yeah, it's so cute.

01:10:51   It's like, oh, I like little, like, you know,

01:10:54   it would be overkill if it was like on it, you know,

01:10:56   in everything, but just little hints of it here and there.

01:10:59   It's nice to keep things like that.

01:11:02   But it's, yeah, but it's just funny

01:11:03   that you still get the little poof,

01:11:04   But you don't have the animation anymore, but you get the sound.

01:11:07   Yeah, and it's a good contrast to the sparklies in launch center.

01:11:12   I feel like with launch center, somebody made that animation.

01:11:18   Because I don't think it's new.

01:11:20   I think it's the same sparkly animation that

01:11:22   was there before Yosemite.

01:11:24   I don't think maybe they tweaked it.

01:11:26   But it looks very similar to me.

01:11:28   I can't help but think that there was somebody who made it,

01:11:31   and they loved it.

01:11:32   And then they were like, we're gonna do this,

01:11:35   we're gonna redesign the whole OS for 10.10

01:11:39   and we're gonna flatten everything,

01:11:40   we're gonna get rid of all this stuff.

01:11:41   And that they like secretly were like,

01:11:43   oh God, please don't come for the sparkly,

01:11:45   please don't come for the, you know.

01:11:47   - You leave my sparkly alone.

01:11:49   - Nobody ever like filed a radar that was like,

01:11:51   get rid of this weird sparkly thing.

01:11:53   And they're like, shoot,

01:11:55   their beloved sparkly thing.

01:11:57   'Cause it does, I like that it's there,

01:12:01   but it does kind of stick out.

01:12:02   I think yeah, yeah, it doesn't it doesn't really fit but it's I still just like it and and I think it works because it's sort

01:12:09   Of like a one-off like it's just a random rare thing

01:12:12   Like it's not you know, there aren't things like that all over the the OS so it's fine

01:12:17   It it just happens in that one place and it's fine

01:12:20   Well a little touch of fun

01:12:22   the obvious thing to do would be to copy the iOS style and put just put a blue dot next to the

01:12:30   App name if it's updated. Yeah, that's so boring

01:12:33   it is and it's it's just one of those funny things though where like

01:12:38   Like overall like I said, you know a little earlier that overall the Mac is more to me more conservative UI wise than iOS

01:12:47   but like the sparklies in

01:12:49   Launch Center is you know way blingy?

01:12:53   Super bling like way more blingy even than iOS. Oh for sure. Yeah

01:12:59   But it just in that one space and the rest of it doesn't look I mean the rest of it

01:13:03   You know fits in fine like the icon fits in fine

01:13:06   You get this, you know nice, you know frosted glass effect over here over your background and search bar up at the top

01:13:14   So I mean that's everything else looks like it. It just fits right in

01:13:17   But then you get the little sparklies

01:13:20   Have you I this is and this is one of those things too that I wondered about and I maybe it'll never happen but I

01:13:29   speaking of launch center I sort of expected that when Apple eventually did

01:13:39   the okay let's do a major redesign of OS 10 that I expected that the finder would

01:13:45   be replaced with launch center as the sort of interesting like starting point

01:13:51   of the OS like when you first log in with nothing launched I thought that

01:13:55   they would switch to launch center, which is

01:13:57   You know, it's it's pretty much the Mac version of the iOS home screen, right?

01:14:03   Exactly, then, you know that had never occurred to me that they would that they might do that

01:14:06   But it makes sense now that you that you mentioned it. That would be a good

01:14:09   Sort of analogy to to the iOS home screen to be to start there

01:14:14   well

01:14:15   and I think I wonder and I just one of those things where I would love to I would love to just find out like

01:14:21   the inside scoop as to whether they thought about it or not but you know

01:14:25   they never talk about it but I wonder how much I wonder how much of it is that

01:14:30   you know maybe they would like to and if the Mac was a brand new thing that's

01:14:34   exactly what they would do but they can't do it because so many people save

01:14:39   all their crap to the desktop and the desktop has to be there because there's

01:14:45   so many loaded with all the files and random stuff right because you know for

01:14:50   For everybody who is technically adept enough to know that the desktop is really just a

01:14:57   folder in your home folder, you know, there's other people who if they logged in and they

01:15:03   saw nothing but apps, they would think, "Oh my God, home files on my desktop are gone."

01:15:07   Oh, right.

01:15:08   Yeah.

01:15:09   Oh, yeah.

01:15:10   People would freak out, I'm sure.

01:15:11   I don't know.

01:15:12   I can't help but think that that might be the only thing that's keeping them from doing

01:15:15   it.

01:15:16   I don't know.

01:15:17   Yeah.

01:15:18   I don't know.

01:15:19   If any if anything switches more towards that or sort of moves in that direction or if they somehow split the difference in the future

01:15:26   Do you save files to your desktop is your desktop clean or is it or is it messy my desktop right now has let's see

01:15:33   Seven things on it, and it's temporary things. I tend not to leave them there for too long

01:15:39   It's sort of something like oh I need to

01:15:41   Follow up on this thing, and I'm gonna leave it on my desktop

01:15:44   But yeah, I sort of go through and clean things up

01:15:48   Now and again, and I don't think yeah, nothing here is is terribly old

01:15:53   Yeah, so it's not it's not perfectly clean

01:15:56   But it's not littered with with things either and it's all all things of sort of a temporary nature that I don't

01:16:02   Like things like if they were all deleted right now, like it wouldn't be a big deal at all

01:16:06   Yeah, I was about to say that I keep a very neat desktop and I looked and I had to open a window to get

01:16:11   The count I have 25 items on my desktop. So it's not neat at all. It's a mess

01:16:16   But I do the same thing though where it's I think everything is pretty recent

01:16:20   I'm looking at the dates. All right, I'm sorting by date and the oldest thing is from October 15th. So

01:16:27   It's everything is from the last month and I do and then like I'll get in like it's like

01:16:33   My physical office my real world this the room that I'm in as I record this right now is a mess

01:16:39   It's like Andy Rooney's office. It's

01:16:41   full of papers and books and boxes and stuff, but I do I keep a neat computer and I

01:16:46   Once a month or so. I just like get everything off my desktop

01:16:50   Yeah, right exactly me too. I just sort of go through and clean up and

01:16:54   Yeah, he's a bugs me after a while having too much stuff there

01:16:59   Yeah, it's like I feel like if my office is a mess at least my computer can be neat and it seems so much

01:17:07   It seems so much easier to clean up your desktop than it is to clean like a room so I'd sure

01:17:13   But it always blows me away when there's when I see people who have like

01:17:19   Seriously, like a hundred two hundred things on their desktop like everything that they've ever done is on their desktop, right?

01:17:26   Things yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it triggers like my OCD

01:17:35   I

01:17:37   Noticed though I did notice that

01:17:39   so Jonas is 10 and he's

01:17:42   starting to use a

01:17:44   Mac way more than he used to used to really just use like iOS devices because he has like homework and stuff like that

01:17:50   mm-hmm and

01:17:53   without me ever like I never really like

01:17:55   Never really sat down and showed him like here's how to use a Mac. It was just let him figure it out on its own

01:18:02   He just naturally

01:18:04   saves files to his desktop all of his files around his desktop. Interesting.

01:18:10   Notes and stuff like that like plans for Minecraft and things like that. Nice. So I

01:18:15   thought that was pretty interesting because I kind of wondered whether that

01:18:18   was like an old-school Mac habit like from the old days that people have

01:18:22   carried over or you know did like would somebody like him who's you know

01:18:27   reli- you know really only started using a Mac in the last year or two would they

01:18:32   Would they naturally do that and he does he just save stuff to just naturally just saves files to his desktop

01:18:39   I don't know why that is. Yes, it's surprising. Yeah

01:18:42   Yeah instead of I mean cuz I was I'm just thinking like if you

01:18:45   Are looking at it for the first time and you get a save dialog for the first time

01:18:49   You know, there's a default

01:18:51   Directory in the sidebar called document. So I would imagine that by default people would save things to their documents folder. But now I guess not

01:18:59   Well, I don't know I'm so habituated. I'm not sure like it's it's hard to be objective about it

01:19:05   I wonder if it's because the desktop is like the one place where

01:19:10   Yeah, I know that you can you know, you can change the view options for any window in the finder to you know

01:19:16   List or column or icon view? Yeah, but it's the one place that's always icon view and you can arrange things

01:19:22   spatially and say I've got this file and I want it over here on the left and it's gonna be on the left and you

01:19:29   drag it over there and it stays there as opposed to being a list that's my that's my hunch

01:19:33   is the one that does it but I haven't I haven't asked him interesting yeah let me take another

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01:22:37   the other week I I had Merlin Merlin man on the show and this is what we call

01:22:46   follow-up I guess you're supposed to do this at the beginning of a podcast but I

01:22:49   forgot I have a note here we were talking about Roman numerals and what a

01:22:53   pain in the acid is with the Super Bowl because it's like xxx xvi something

01:22:59   something and you never know what Super Bowl it is and I said that when they had

01:23:05   Super Bowl 50 which would be Super Bowl L that they should have that's when they should

01:23:10   have dropped the Roman numerals stick and just gone with yes well yeah turns it turns

01:23:16   out Super Bowl 50 hasn't happened yet it's next year next year is Super Bowl 50 it's

01:23:24   going to be in San Francisco and they've already announced that that's exactly what they're

01:23:29   going to do they're going to drop the Roman numeral stick and it's just Super Bowl 50

01:23:34   Super Bowl 50. Nice. So nice, because I think that's so much better. And not nice because

01:23:43   because I spent like five minutes on the podcast two weeks ago saying complaining that that's

01:23:47   what they they should have done a couple years ago when Super Bowl 50 happened, but it hasn't

01:23:51   happened. So let me get that out there because I keep getting email from people saying, dude,

01:23:57   Super Bowl 50 is next year and they're doing exactly what you said. I can't take any credit

01:24:01   for it though because they announced it well before the show so the got that out

01:24:07   there all right here's a question for you okay with the watch kit SDK that

01:24:15   Apple released this week Apple included what they called design resources

01:24:21   something like that the thing that they've come with the font but it also

01:24:23   came with a bunch of PSD files Photoshop files for both software layouts and

01:24:31   And things like it's like a type of graphic grid that shows you all of the type sizes

01:24:37   And it's not specified by like a number like saying oh give me 16 point font

01:24:45   It's like give me caption. Give me headline. Give me. Oh, yeah

01:24:50   Yeah, they have all of those sort of styles established and they're they're really they want you to stick with their established styles

01:24:57   Right. Well the idea behind those and all this

01:25:00   Right and using those styles means that you don't have to worry about the difference in physical size between the 38 millimeter watch and yes

01:25:08   Right and presumably maybe next year or two years from now

01:25:13   Maybe there'll be a 44 millimeter watch and maybe there will be a 36 millimeter one and your your stuff will all just work

01:25:19   Because it's all

01:25:21   Relative sizes and stuff like that

01:25:23   Which I think is probably the way to go. I think it's you know, yeah, I think it's

01:25:29   Clever and yeah, that's smart way to set it up from the outset. Here's my question

01:25:34   Oh, my question is I thought it was so interesting that they shipped all these things as PSD files

01:25:39   Do you do you as a designer? Do you do you do a lot of your work in Photoshop? Oh, yes every yeah

01:25:45   That's that's mostly what I use eight hours a day is Photoshop

01:25:49   Yeah, there just really isn't anything that's like more versatile or better for doing what I do not yet anyway

01:25:57   So yeah, I spent I spent a lot of time in Photoshop

01:26:01   I thought that was so interesting that it was sort of to me like a concession that

01:26:06   Photoshop is the de facto standard UI design tool, right? Yeah, I think it definitely is. I mean, I think it's sort of industry standard

01:26:13   But it's interesting. I mean, it's funny that but they do that with the typefaces because

01:26:19   Just the way that Photoshop renders text is terrible

01:26:23   I mean especially compared to like the way that just OS X renders

01:26:28   Fonts like it's I don't know you have these different. You know like you can you can change

01:26:33   the display of a typeface from like

01:26:37   crisp to strong to smooth

01:26:40   You know so and it like changes things a little bit and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but I don't know everything just reads

01:26:46   So much more clearly if it's if it's rendered programmatically rather than through Photoshop and then

01:26:52   In a PSD. Yeah with work working on on Vesper with

01:26:57   Whiskas he does everything and he's you know a total Photoshop diehard like again like yeah

01:27:03   Doing work. He's eight hours a day in Photoshop

01:27:06   And I have to always refrain from complaining about the way type looks because I know that

01:27:11   Yeah, it's not the same rendering path

01:27:16   It's like yeah all text is effectively like for placement only like here's how much space it will take up

01:27:22   Wait until the app is actually an app and then bitch about the type

01:27:26   Right this have you heard of this app sketch?

01:27:28   No, that's the other app when I when I I twittered that

01:27:37   Pointing out that you know that Apple shipped all these things as Photoshop things and that it's the de facto standard

01:27:45   And I got all these people saying that no everybody's using sketch these days to do

01:27:51   Interesting to do UI design and it looks like a cool app. I've never used it, but

01:27:57   I'm looking at it now on the website, and I think it looks familiar

01:28:00   I think I like someone has linked to it before and I just haven't really given it the time of day yet

01:28:05   but yeah, it's something to check out for sure, but you know I

01:28:09   Often look into other like UI design prototyping tools things like that and sometimes I use them like supplement only but

01:28:17   Yeah, I don't know. I just still like live in Photoshop for for most of the time

01:28:22   no, and and you do you have like super like complex like layers and

01:28:27   Yeah, well just yeah tons and tons of groups that I turn off and on for different

01:28:33   You know views within and different states within a view. So

01:28:37   Yeah, it's it gets pretty complicated. It's like one of my favorite things

01:28:41   I don't really use Photoshop anymore personally

01:28:43   but I like to watch somebody who's really good at Photoshop use Photoshop and

01:28:47   Then they quick click through and they have all these groups and like all of a sudden what you're looking at on screen is like totally

01:28:53   Different and it's like well, how'd you do that? I love

01:28:55   Krista, Morgan, thank you. Thank you so much for coming back. It has been too long. Thanks so much for having me

01:29:02   Yeah, it was fantastic

01:29:04   All right, people can see your work at

01:29:07   rogue amoeba and all of their great apps rogue amoeba calm

01:29:12   Where you work with a bunch of cool people and a jerk named Paul

01:29:17   Okay, and on Twitter they can see you what's your Twitter?

01:29:24   username

01:29:26   anti Krista

01:29:27   anti anti Christ with an AME

01:29:31   Exactly, it's funny. I always forget what people's Twitter names are

01:29:34   but they should check you out there and

01:29:38   You have a

01:29:41   Pretty good

01:29:43   Pretty good Twitter account. Hey, thanks. Thanks. Hey you too. You too. Jeff. No. No, my Twitter account is terrible. I

01:29:51   That's where that's where all the crap comes out

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