The Talk Show

98: ‘Far Less Eloquent as You’ With John Siracusa


00:00:00   fashionably late as always it's pretty good for me yeah eight minutes you guys

00:00:09   you guys do the live thing on ATP so you've got to be on time because people

00:00:12   are sitting there and refresh on that on the website that's not why we're on time

00:00:19   why are you on time self-respect I guess standards right we're East Coast people

00:00:27   You're a East Coast person too. You're supposed to be representing for us instead. You're you going to Las Vegas mode. I

00:00:33   Don't think it's that bad, but it is sort of a West Coast personality trait

00:00:38   now the West Coast move which is also your move is like

00:00:42   Nine o'clock rolls around or whatever time we're doing and you realize oh, I forgot about that and you immediately

00:00:48   Petition for a 15 minute delay and then you have a five minute delay after the 15 minute delay

00:00:57   It's all right

00:00:58   Makes you endearing. Oh, you sound like you're in a good mood

00:01:01   Yeah, sure. Sure. Why not busy week?

00:01:05   So I finished listening to now probably an episode behind though because you guys probably recorded last night

00:01:13   For context we are recording right now. It's Thursday, October 23rd

00:01:19   You guys probably did an ATP last night, but it's not out yet

00:01:22   so I might be behind but I did listen to last week's show where you talked about your

00:01:26   Yosemite review. We talked more about it yesterday in yesterday's episode as well.

00:01:32   Well I'll try not to, well if we venture into duplicating the same story

00:01:37   territory you can just interrupt me and say you know what listen to ATP because

00:01:40   I want to do you know it's no use wasting people's time. I'll say the same

00:01:44   things twice I don't care like the thing with all podcasts is and you know this

00:01:48   is kind of like it's like a first draft over your thoughts are and you just kind

00:01:52   of on the spot and then you start thinking about it and you start talking

00:01:55   about it, and you know, at least I do. I kind of ramble, and it's like, given time to think

00:01:59   about that, like, I think I could say that again better, and then obviously the ultimate

00:02:03   is you're like, oh, if I'm actually going to write it, I've got to actually figure out

00:02:05   what I really think. But just sort of, you know, anyway, duplication I don't mind. Give

00:02:10   me a second chance to get it right.

00:02:12   Yeah, totally. In a big picture, I was thinking about this. I don't know why, because I guess

00:02:17   it's just the way the human mind works. But somehow 10.10 feels like a milestone, you

00:02:23   it's like 10 even though it's not you know it's actually the 11th major

00:02:28   version and it's the 12th I guess that you've reviewed because you did the

00:02:31   public beta how many how many Mac OS 10 reviews have you done so so I did

00:02:36   developer preview to developer preview 3 developer preview for public beta and

00:02:40   then all the releases and it was also one or two thrown in there they weren't

00:02:44   really reviews they were just like random like hey I just went to Mac world

00:02:47   and here's some more stuff you might want to know about aqua and you know but

00:02:51   If you wanted to go buy the releases I started a DP - because uh yeah, and I don't remember what I think

00:02:57   I played with DB one, but I definitely didn't write it up

00:02:59   So I've been thinking about this and you mentioned this on ATP

00:03:04   I don't want to get all maudlin

00:03:05   But there's a chance you're thinking that maybe this last one that you just published last week might be the last one you're gonna

00:03:09   Do you may not do next year's?

00:03:11   Yeah, I

00:03:14   You know we can get into that a little bit later

00:03:15   But you know just thinking and this nice even round ten number

00:03:19   I do think the podcasts in general and you having been doing one regularly either ATP or

00:03:27   What was your old show called hypercritical

00:03:32   It seems like forever but it's not like when did hypercritical start I think like 2011

00:03:42   Yeah, so it's only a handful of years

00:03:43   But to me there's this huge difference as you know

00:03:47   And you and I got to know each other know when we first started emailing

00:03:50   But it's a long time before we met but we are at least his email before daring fireball started

00:03:55   Because you were working at you were still working. I've told this story in ATP you gave me my first

00:03:59   Copy of BB edit or whatever the current version

00:04:03   It was out then like it previously I had I had convinced work to buy it for my work

00:04:06   But you worked at bare-bones said here you go. Here's a free copy of BB. I was like, oh awesome

00:04:11   No wonder I lasted there so long

00:04:14   He's given away their software

00:04:16   to surefire customers. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, we've known each other since before

00:04:23   there was even Daring Fireball. And it's, you know, our interests are common first name,

00:04:31   are, you know, the fact that we're, I think we're exactly the same age, even 1973.

00:04:35   DEE SMITH Close. You're a year older.

00:04:37   DAVE SMITH I don't look older, though. But I feel like

00:04:43   the universe was destined for us to know each other somehow. It just seems like it. It just

00:04:48   seems like no matter how the dice had been rolled somewhere in the intervening years,

00:04:54   we were going to get to know each other.

00:04:55   It was a small world back then. For the Mac nerds on the web, it was just like we were

00:05:01   all using IE5 and experimenting with CSS and reading Zeldman and hoping Apple doesn't go

00:05:07   out of business. Before that, we were all reading Mac Week, which you talked about on

00:05:12   the last podcast and Mac user and Mac world.

00:05:15   It was such a small world.

00:05:17   If we had both gone to the same Mac world conference,

00:05:20   we probably would have bumped into it.

00:05:20   - Yeah, I think that's almost certain

00:05:22   'cause they were small back then.

00:05:25   Or it was, you would inevitably meet everybody.

00:05:28   You wouldn't have that.

00:05:29   - Yeah, you would see the same people year after year.

00:05:32   - It's not like WWDC where now it's so crazy

00:05:35   and you go and it's like some of your best friends,

00:05:38   you don't even see them.

00:05:38   You're like, "Hey, I didn't even run into so-and-so."

00:05:41   And it's just a very different world.

00:05:45   But as someone who's always been a huge fan of your work

00:05:48   at ours, these massive book-length reviews,

00:05:52   it's such a profound change now that you're podcasting.

00:05:57   Because it used to be that John Siracusa as a brand

00:06:01   was something you got sporadically, almost

00:06:06   on an annual schedule.

00:06:07   You had to wait a year in between.

00:06:08   But when you did, it would be like a massive mainline dose.

00:06:14   How different it is now that you have a weekly outlet and we all get plenty of John Saracusa.

00:06:21   It's so different and it's hard to imagine going back to that.

00:06:25   Yeah, I had for a while at ours when they were doing like staff blogs or whatever, there

00:06:29   was a period and I'm always surprised when I go back and look at it.

00:06:32   Like there was a period where I was blogging as if you want to call it that, pretty regularly

00:06:38   on the staff blog. Like I'm amazed at the number of things I wrote there. I forget what

00:06:41   I even wrote. It's like, you know, it's not the volume that you put out on a regular basis,

00:06:45   but you know how it is where you can't even remember what the hell you wrote because it's

00:06:47   just too much, right? And I, of course I remember all my reviews because those are big punctuated

00:06:52   things and there's a few special stories in between there and retrospectives and I did

00:06:55   like a game review and it's all sorts of crap, you know, but I can remember those. But then

00:06:59   there was just like, at one point I was doing one or two pagers every couple of weeks for

00:07:04   ours and I look back on that body of work and I'm happy with it and I like it, it's

00:07:08   just that like it was never, it was neither fish nor fowl, it wasn't what I do now which

00:07:15   is just sort of ramble on a weekly basis where it's just off the cuff or whatever and it

00:07:18   certainly wasn't the big long lead up to a giant review, it was kind of in betweeny and

00:07:25   I guess podcasting has totally filled that role now because I don't have, you know, Twitter

00:07:29   and plus podcasting have destroyed my ability to blog. Not that I had much of an ability

00:07:34   to do it to begin with, but I may get back into it if I don't do these big reviews anymore.

00:07:38   Yeah, I'm not sure that you're meant for it. I don't know. I feel like you've found your

00:07:44   thing that is more... I always say to me, in everything in life, in the general world,

00:07:51   it's the extremes where things are most interesting. To me, at Daring Fireball, the best posts

00:07:55   or my linkless ones where I think of just one word to add,

00:07:59   or two words, you know, good luck with that,

00:08:01   or something like that.

00:08:02   Or the big long ones, the thousand, multi-thousand

00:08:07   word pieces.

00:08:07   It's when I have a post that's like 300 words,

00:08:12   then I know I'm in trouble.

00:08:13   That I've, you know, I either should be able to make

00:08:16   this point much more succinctly, or I'm being lazy

00:08:19   and I need to go deeper.

00:08:21   And I feel like with you, it's, you know,

00:08:24   you found your, I'm not gonna spend a lot of time

00:08:28   on this format and it's podcasting.

00:08:30   - It's not even that I'm not gonna spend all the time,

00:08:33   but it's just sort of more like less prepared.

00:08:35   It's like more thinking out loud

00:08:37   and going back and forth.

00:08:38   And the blog format, like if I didn't have an actual

00:08:41   regular day job that took my time,

00:08:43   I think the thing I like about that is not so much

00:08:45   that any individual post is anything special,

00:08:48   but that you sort of build up a body of work

00:08:50   with like little reference points.

00:08:52   Like very frequently I find myself thinking back to,

00:08:56   you know, I wish I had something

00:08:59   that I could point to about this.

00:09:00   And podcasting, as you know, it's harder to like,

00:09:02   it's harder to ask people to go,

00:09:04   oh, go back to this thing.

00:09:05   And like, you have to give them a timestamp

00:09:07   and you have to look it up

00:09:07   and find out where everything is.

00:09:08   Whereas if I could just point to a blog post,

00:09:10   oh, I talked about this specific issue in a one pager

00:09:13   and you can get my take on it there.

00:09:14   And individual one pagers, not a big deal,

00:09:17   one or two pagers, but now that there's, you know,

00:09:19   I have a few of them on hypercritical.co.

00:09:21   I refer to them frequently and a lot of times I wish the things I had said and worked out on a podcast

00:09:26   I mean you do the same thing and so does Marco depend, you know, you either

00:09:29   write about it first and talk about it on a podcast or talk about it first and that becomes a post for your website and

00:09:35   I find it frustrating that I can't

00:09:38   Point that like that podcasts are so invisible like they're they're ephemeral and you can't like point people into them

00:09:45   It seems like asking more than just having them read a paragraph or two on a web page that you send them

00:09:50   So I do wish I had more time to blog who knows if I even well

00:09:54   I don't know like I'm not not forcing myself to do it or whatever, but I think a lot of the reason that

00:09:59   You know this is kind of where the blog entailed off once that the OS 10 releases started coming out yearly

00:10:04   At first it was like there would just be a quiet period where I wouldn't write anything because I'm just doing the review and then

00:10:10   That quiet period expanded to like fill the whole year and so it's like well

00:10:12   I guess all I'm doing now is Twitter and worrying about writing my reviews

00:10:19   Well said

00:10:21   How do you have you how many words was your Yosemite review I think I asked you this last or two

00:10:29   It's like the same you didn't read my about post because you follow too many people on Twitter

00:10:34   It's like the same like this it was last year. I can't look at the number. It's on like 26 K 27 K

00:10:40   Something like that hyper is that a hyper critical

00:10:42   Yeah, is that a co co the calm guy wants too much money?

00:10:47   Oh, man.

00:10:50   Well, that's what we got for the Vesper.

00:10:51   We got the .co.

00:10:52   Somehow it reads right.

00:10:55   Somehow top level domains are such a weird thing.

00:10:58   Because A, the whole thing is so gross

00:11:00   and never should have been exposed to end users anyway.

00:11:03   It's like file name extensions.

00:11:05   But they've become part of the world we live in.

00:11:11   .com is just invisible.

00:11:13   Somebody has whatever .com, and it's like the nothing domain.

00:11:17   Even though getting a dot com is incredibly difficult,

00:11:21   because everything was taken by the end of the 90s,

00:11:23   let alone in the intervening years.

00:11:26   Something about dot co, which is,

00:11:28   for people who don't know, it's the nation,

00:11:31   Columbia's top level domain.

00:11:33   It reads like dot com.

00:11:35   And it's like, you notice it, I always notice it.

00:11:37   I always, you know, but it has that same effect

00:11:40   of like, you just accept it.

00:11:42   Like, that's why I couldn't even remember

00:11:43   the hypercritical TLD.

00:11:45   It's kind of like a, you know, web 2.0E like Flickr,

00:11:48   where you leave off the R kind of like com

00:11:50   where you leave off the M kind of a twee sort of precious.

00:11:55   It's that version.

00:11:56   Maybe it really, I just got it because, you know,

00:11:58   all the other extensions for worse.

00:12:00   I'm gonna get .us, you know, .business, .plumbing, whatever.

00:12:08   - They're so bad.

00:12:09   I just, I can't believe some of those.

00:12:14   So anyway, if you went to the site, you'll see that this, it's my, like, the format I've

00:12:18   done for the past three years.

00:12:19   It's just like a template and I just changed the numbers like mad libs.

00:12:22   And at the bottom, there's stats.

00:12:23   Right.

00:12:24   So 27,000 words.

00:12:26   What's the, I think that it's like the average size of a novel is somewhere around 60,000

00:12:31   words, give or take.

00:12:32   So it's, you know, it's truly book length.

00:12:35   And yeah, the weird thing to me is that my review settled in around this 25, 27K size

00:12:42   for the past like three or four not through any conscious effort of my own

00:12:45   but it's just that's how it worked out you know right it's you know it's like

00:12:48   that's about how much work they can do on an annual basis on Mac OS X and it's

00:12:55   like it's more like that's how much I feel like I can or should write because

00:12:59   there's more I could write about and every time I always feel like I

00:13:02   basically ran out of time and I would like to have whole giant sections but I

00:13:05   always like I prioritize them I say well yeah I'm interested in that and I think

00:13:10   I think I could write another few thousand words about it,

00:13:13   but would the value it adds to the review

00:13:15   and the interest it adds to review

00:13:16   be worth the time I put in,

00:13:18   and how much time I've got scheduled for this?

00:13:20   Because really, even though I have so much lead up time

00:13:22   to it, it still kind of compresses at the end,

00:13:24   because there's only so much you can write about

00:13:25   when things don't work and they're broken in a beta

00:13:28   and Apple hasn't made final decisions.

00:13:29   You gotta, the final bits have to come down

00:13:31   and then you have to scramble.

00:13:38   So if we added them all together, what is it?

00:13:42   And I know that the sizes are different

00:13:44   from some of the old ones,

00:13:45   but it's about 15 reviews, right?

00:13:48   If we're talking about,

00:13:48   this is the 11th numbered version,

00:13:50   and you said you did DP2, DP3, DP4, so it's 14 or 15.

00:13:55   It's an enormous body of work.

00:13:58   It really, truly is.

00:13:59   And I know that it's not one single piece of work

00:14:02   that if you read them all back to back,

00:14:04   there's some sort of repetition that would be going on

00:14:07   because they follow a certain formula.

00:14:09   But I do think, I think it's such an interesting testimony

00:14:15   to have and that like 20 years from now

00:14:17   when the youngins take over,

00:14:19   that they'll be out there for them to look at

00:14:22   and remember where things are.

00:14:25   - That's what old people like to think,

00:14:26   but young people won't give a damn.

00:14:28   They already don't.

00:14:29   They'll look back on our great works and tremble.

00:14:33   - How often would we refer to a similarly detailed review

00:14:37   of System 2 from 1985.

00:14:39   - Right, or the Apple 2 OSs or anything like that.

00:14:44   - Somewhere somebody would need it though.

00:14:46   - The thing that's brutal for me though,

00:14:47   is if I ever go back and look at those old ones,

00:14:49   I just, I can't stand it.

00:14:50   Just like, it's terrible.

00:14:51   I mean, I don't know if you feel the same way,

00:14:53   but like I go look at my early writing,

00:14:54   I'm like, holy cow, this is bad.

00:14:56   Like just isn't bad in all ways.

00:14:58   Like, I guess I knew, like it was,

00:15:00   it was certainly more casual back then,

00:15:02   and I was a worse writer,

00:15:03   and the combination of the two was just,

00:15:06   And really, I don't know.

00:15:08   Like, you didn't know what was important and what wasn't.

00:15:10   The things I focused on are just seem inane.

00:15:12   And I have a lot of difficult,

00:15:14   a lot of people ask like, oh, you're gonna go back

00:15:16   and collect all these together into one big thing.

00:15:17   The most painful part of it would be that

00:15:19   if I was to do that and you start reading it,

00:15:21   you're gonna start reading stuff I wrote in 1999

00:15:23   that I think is not good.

00:15:25   It's just not good.

00:15:26   I mean, like, I hope I always feel that way.

00:15:30   I kind of, you know, I kind of feel that way.

00:15:32   Like, you know, you get to a certain point

00:15:34   And I just think everything I write is crap as soon as I write it.

00:15:37   And I just make it as good as I can.

00:15:38   At the time allotted, I didn't move on.

00:15:40   But it's like programming.

00:15:41   Like, if I don't look back at the code I'm writing this year,

00:15:44   like 10 years from now, if I don't look back at the code

00:15:45   I'm writing this year and think it sucks, that means I'm not improving.

00:15:47   Right.

00:15:48   I can totally see that.

00:15:51   I look back.

00:15:52   I did learn this.

00:15:53   And there's a-- I'm going to get it wrong.

00:15:56   I think it was one of the great titans of modern computer science,

00:16:01   either Kernighan or Richie or one of those Bell Labs guys who said something about that

00:16:06   debugging is twice as hard as programming.

00:16:09   So if you write code as cleverly as you possibly can, you'll never be able to debug it because

00:16:16   you need an intellect twice as great.

00:16:20   You need to write your own code like you're a halfwit so that when you debug it or when

00:16:25   you've...

00:16:26   For me personally, it's when I return to it that I can understand what the hell is going

00:16:30   on.

00:16:31   I know that saying, and I understand the sentiment behind it, but the logic and the saying makes

00:16:34   no sense, and it's mostly BS in the details. But in broad strokes, trying to say the idea is that

00:16:40   later you will come back to your own code and not understand it, and that is entirely true. And so

00:16:46   what he's trying to say is to mitigate that. Don't make your life harder by doing things that are

00:16:52   difficult to understand even now when you're in the midst of it.

00:16:55   Right. And it totally informed my use of comments. Is my comments, I used to only write, of course,

00:17:04   because I was a teenager and early 20s. And so, of course, I didn't want to write any comments at all.

00:17:10   And I only did it because when my CS professors, you had to. If you submitted your work without

00:17:16   comments, it was something you automatically lose like 10 points. So, the comments were stupid. I

00:17:23   I would just write the smart ass teenager's comments,

00:17:27   which is just restating the logic of each line.

00:17:30   - Add one to all. - Right, exactly.

00:17:33   Whereas the light that went on,

00:17:35   even though I don't write much code anymore,

00:17:37   but the light that went on eventually was

00:17:41   comments are like time travel.

00:17:43   You're talking to your future self

00:17:45   who is utterly confused as to why you would do this seeming,

00:17:49   this doesn't seem like it's necessary.

00:17:52   Tell your future self, here's why you're doing this

00:17:54   and why you wanna keep doing it.

00:17:56   And it's made my code, at least for my own self-maintenance,

00:17:59   it's made it all the difference in the world.

00:18:01   - Yeah, there's a couple phases of that.

00:18:03   Like the early phases, everyone thinks I don't need comments

00:18:05   'cause I'm writing this now and I understand it

00:18:07   and I'll understand it in the future.

00:18:08   And the second phase is realizing that's not the case

00:18:11   and you start trying to write comments

00:18:12   but you don't know what good comments are.

00:18:13   And I think the third phase is finally realizing

00:18:16   that if you write the code in a sensible way,

00:18:19   you only need comments on the tricky parts

00:18:20   and you should minimize that.

00:18:21   And when you do need a comment on the tricky part,

00:18:24   you'll know how to write it in a way that will be illuminating

00:18:27   rather than stupid.

00:18:27   Yeah, either the tricky part where

00:18:29   you're doing something pretty clever

00:18:30   and a month goes by, it's going to be out of your head

00:18:34   how you pulled that off because you're in the zone.

00:18:36   Or for me, a lot of times, it's the you're

00:18:40   working around something stupid.

00:18:42   And the workaround makes-- if you

00:18:43   didn't know about the stupid thing,

00:18:45   the workaround looks like it's why would you ever do this?

00:18:49   This is dumb.

00:18:49   Just don't do that.

00:18:52   - And writing for your future self

00:18:53   is easier than writing for other people

00:18:55   because if you're in an organization

00:18:56   where you're programming, there's lots of other programmers,

00:18:58   at the very least, when you're writing for yourself,

00:19:00   you can retrace your steps

00:19:03   and you will arrive at the same conclusion again,

00:19:05   but other people won't do that

00:19:06   because they react differently

00:19:08   to the same stimulus, basically.

00:19:10   So for other people, what you're trying to do is,

00:19:13   yours is the one where you put the whys,

00:19:14   but also what is the broader context of this whole thing?

00:19:17   What is even going on here?

00:19:19   Are there any assumptions that are unstated because you assume they're obvious to everybody,

00:19:23   but won't be obvious to someone a year from now?

00:19:28   Writing comments is just basically writing.

00:19:30   It's the same, you have to communicate to people in plain language with reduced ambiguity.

00:19:34   It's a different goal, a different purpose, a different audience, but it is writing, and

00:19:37   that's why programmers are so bad at it, because those skill sets tend to not cluster frequently

00:19:42   where people who are happy and comfortable programming are not happy and comfortable

00:19:46   writing prose.

00:19:47   Yeah, I guess it's true that a lot of times they're not.

00:19:50   But there seems to be... I know...

00:19:52   Because we hang out with Mac nerds. We're at the intersection of liberal arts.

00:19:56   We know all the programmers who are good writers.

00:19:59   Like Brent's a great example. Rich...

00:20:02   Yeah, no, I know. I mean, we know people because we read their blogs. That's how we know.

00:20:06   Rich Segal is another great example. Man, when he... he doesn't write much, but when he does,

00:20:10   it is so succinct and to the point and it's exquisite.

00:20:15   exquisite like I I often refer back I have a copy of the the BB edit 2.2

00:20:20   manual like the first public version of BB edit and it's it's just like a model

00:20:27   of clarity it is such a good piece of technical writing did he write that one

00:20:32   pretty well I know he wrote parts in there was a couple of other credits up

00:20:36   front but there's a and there's like a little what would you would call a blog

00:20:39   Post now I sort of like why does BB edit exist? Why why why on the Mac would you you know want a programmer's text editor?

00:20:47   Who would ever want to edit more than 32 K of text?

00:20:51   It's more it's a more of like a personal statement like a mission statement for BB edit and

00:20:57   It's just terrific I should actually see if he'd let me maybe I'd see if I can

00:21:04   Rerun it or something. I think it would be an interesting especially now that BB at 11th out. Maybe I should

00:21:08   See about getting it on the internet somewhere because I think it stands up

00:21:12   Low these yeah, oh these many years in

00:21:16   operating systems later

00:21:19   All the stuff he writes if you've met him

00:21:21   You can't help but read it always because very

00:21:25   Such a person the mannerisms and the pacing of the way he would say those things it comes through in the writing

00:21:30   I just saw somebody tweeted tweeted tweeted that the other day

00:21:33   I don't know if it was to both me and you but to a couple of us where they were like now that we all have

00:21:37   Podcasts they can't help but read everything we write in our own voices

00:21:41   And I always hear that and I it's kind of nice because it means they're like listening to a lot of our podcast

00:21:46   But I also kind of cringe because it's like God writing is where I get to be better

00:21:49   How I speak I want to sound way smarter when I write because I got all this runway, and I could you know

00:21:54   Speaking who knows what the hell comes out, but writing like that's my chance right and so it's almost a shame

00:22:00   that they know, you know, the stumbling idiots that are behind the words. Like, writing is a secret

00:22:05   weapon. I got all the time in the world to figure out what this sentence is going to be.

00:22:07   Yeah, and there's no wasted words and no stupid...

00:22:10   Well, ideally, I mean, obviously, like, again, that's the thing with long reviews. At a certain

00:22:14   point, that's got to be like... That's the thing about these long reviews and all this stuff, like,

00:22:17   early on and still to this day in my OS X reviews, I'm a slave to getting out whatever idea it is in

00:22:26   in my head. I have a point to make or something to say about something and I

00:22:30   have like 17 points to make and 17 things to say about it and I want to get

00:22:34   them all out and I sacrifice the quality of the writing many times because I'm

00:22:39   like this this could be said more elegantly in a different way but it

00:22:43   wouldn't have this one extra little bit of nuance and I talked to myself like

00:22:47   what do you care that that one like this point is sufficient you don't need to go

00:22:51   into this other detail it's like no I want it and so I make some awkward

00:22:54   sentence and I put that other point in there and it's I hate myself for doing

00:22:58   it but a lot of times it's like the overriding thing is say what I wanted to

00:23:03   say and then secondarily try to say it in a reasonable way and that's not

00:23:07   that's not the way to make good writing but that's a lot of times what I do in

00:23:11   my OS 10 reviews let's take a break I am going to thank our first sponsor back

00:23:17   for a second time it's our good friends at Casper now you guys might remember

00:23:21   from a few episodes ago. I think it was the one with the Chalkenberry, but Casper

00:23:28   was a sponsor and had a great response. Craziest idea. When I first heard this

00:23:33   craziest idea in the world. It's you go online. It's high quality mattresses like

00:23:38   the ones you put on your bed at really really good prices. Seems like a crazy

00:23:42   thing to buy on the internet like but in terms eventually we're gonna buy

00:23:46   everything on the internet. We're gonna buy cars on the internet. You go there

00:23:51   They have it's it's two technologies. They call it just the right sink just the right bounce

00:23:56   It's two different technologies latex foam and memory foam that they put together. It's like a special combination

00:24:02   That they've done just right. You don't have to sit there

00:24:06   There's not a whole bunch of different things you have to choose from they they they did it for us

00:24:10   They're the mattress experts. They've designed a really good mattress

00:24:13   I've had regular I've tried not I don't own one

00:24:17   But I've tried a regular memory foam mattress before and I found them way too like weird the way that they they make an indentation

00:24:23   Perfect for your body. It feels like I'm making a crime scene or something

00:24:27   Their mattress isn't like that at all is just enough of that memory stuff that it's comfortable

00:24:31   But it doesn't you don't feel like you're sinking into it

00:24:34   It's it's crazy

00:24:37   Did you get one of these John or did was it Casey who got it for ATP?

00:24:41   Casey got what we were thinking of getting one just because we need a mattress peer

00:24:44   So they sent me one this is what they do when they sponsor a show they send one to you and it's like well

00:24:49   How does a mattress show up? Well, it shows up in like a little dorm room fridge style box very small

00:24:55   You can't believe it but it's because it's like two kinds of foam

00:24:59   They like vacuum seal the mattress and it ships in what is still decidedly a very large package

00:25:05   it is way smaller than a

00:25:07   a

00:25:10   Mattress so put it in the room when you're gonna sleep in it then open the box

00:25:14   They've got instructions that tell you exactly how to do it and let let it let it expand but it works. It is absolutely amazing

00:25:20   It works. It's

00:25:22   Feels like a great mattress. I really like it

00:25:24   And the prices are so much less than the prices you pay for

00:25:30   Mattresses out in the real world. It's ridiculous because the whole mattress industry is

00:25:35   It's just that it's just like the Warby Park your story all over again where it's like it's like a cartel that come

00:25:41   You know controls the whole industry

00:25:43   They deliberately make it very very difficult to comparison shop across stores because each store even if it's from the same brand like Sealy

00:25:51   They have like six different Sealy's the next store you go to has six different Sealy's and they all have different names

00:25:56   even though they're technically the same mattress because they do this to make it really hard for you to

00:26:01   comparison shop and know whether you're paying a good price or not.

00:26:05   Casper cuts out all that crap and they just sell you great mattresses at a good price.

00:26:11   Typical price for a new mattress is well over $1,500.

00:26:14   Casper mattresses cost between $500, that's the twin size, and $950 for a king size mattress.

00:26:21   $950 under $1,000 for a top tier mattress.

00:26:25   You save hundreds and hundreds of dollars and it's completely risk free.

00:26:30   have free delivery and returns within a hundred day period so three months to

00:26:37   sleep on the thing and if you don't like it they'll pay to send it back no idea

00:26:42   how that works I kept mine I'm not quite sure how how sending the full-size

00:26:47   mattress works but they take care of it for you and I believe it risk-free oh and

00:26:55   the last point I want to make I think this is great made in America made in

00:26:58   American mattresses so where do you go to find out more apparently a whole

00:27:02   bunch of you guys bought mattresses the last time their sponsorship brand

00:27:05   totally encourage you if you need a new mattress check them out go to www.casper

00:27:11   Casper sleep.com Casper sleep.com slash talk show now use that code that talk

00:27:22   show code and you will save 50 bucks off there are already low prices on any

00:27:28   mattress that you buy. So you'll save an extra 50 bucks and they're going to

00:27:33   donate 50 bucks to a charity of my choice and that's I'll do the same

00:27:38   charity I did the last time the food and allergy and flags network that my son

00:27:44   and wife raised a lot of money for food allergies for kids great charity that's

00:27:49   all on them great mattresses go check them out at

00:27:53   caspersleep.com/talkshow.

00:27:59   Mattresses on the internet.

00:28:00   What the hell is next?

00:28:02   You know what else?

00:28:03   People are already buying cars on the internet.

00:28:05   Yeah, I guess so.

00:28:06   You can't buy new cars on the internet, though, can you?

00:28:09   I think so.

00:28:10   I don't know.

00:28:12   Speaking of big boxes showing up, my iMac showed up today.

00:28:15   So I started-- I ordered it day one.

00:28:19   So it must have been a week ago.

00:28:21   Of course, I got a bill to order.

00:28:24   And it said three to five days.

00:28:27   And it had a target ship date of October 24 to 28.

00:28:31   And I think it was a wide range because it was over a weekend.

00:28:36   I did pay, I think it was like $30 for expedited shipping.

00:28:39   So I checked last night before I went to bed.

00:28:41   And it said, I got a notice that my iMac was ready.

00:28:45   And it was in China.

00:28:48   And then at 10 o'clock in the morning,

00:28:49   Today, my doorbell rang and it was here.

00:28:52   So from when I went to bed last night, it was in China,

00:28:54   and at 10 a.m., it was at my door, which is crazy.

00:28:58   - The magic of air travel.

00:29:01   - I can't help but think that when they told me

00:29:03   it was in China, it was already really over the Pacific,

00:29:05   but still, it's kind of astounding.

00:29:09   - Yeah, a lot of people have been getting there.

00:29:09   I've been seeing everybody tweeting pictures

00:29:11   of their boxes arriving, so the first batch came quickly.

00:29:14   - Everybody wants to know, I guess I could talk about it.

00:29:19   I guess I'll write a review eventually but I don't buy Macs very often and then you even mention this on ATP like I just

00:29:27   just now replaced a 2008 MacBook Pro that I had

00:29:31   Upgraded to an SSD at some point which which gave it a couple more years of life, but it was really really

00:29:37   aging

00:29:40   And my desktop display as you know, it's it's it's like a 2004 20 inch cinema display

00:29:48   Yeah, this is a serious, you know for as reckless as I am buying a new iPhone every single year

00:29:54   I'm the opposite with max

00:29:55   I'd I like to get one max it out and then use it until it's until it's ridiculously old

00:30:02   Now you're gonna find out if you have any glare in that room because I'm looking at the 23 inch version of that and it's matte

00:30:07   And you know, but you don't know if you have any serious glare issues if you've been using a matte screen for the past

00:30:12   However, many years you'll find out now if you see your face when you sit down in front of you right now

00:30:17   Mac yeah that was that's one of those things where I think they've gotten

00:30:20   better at it and I know that it's and it's the sort of thing you can write

00:30:24   about and they can advertise but you really have to see it the anti glare the

00:30:27   thing that they've done with the new iPad air is pretty interesting but I

00:30:31   want to know why didn't they do it to the new iMac - yeah it's not it's not

00:30:35   laminated well I think I think the reason that in laminate is you know I

00:30:38   assume is maybe it's just too hard to laminate something I think but you know

00:30:41   you know how it is you take the glass off and then the screen is behind it if

00:30:44   they laminated them together I guess you would like take the screen off when you

00:30:48   opened it up and then you'd have to like disconnect the ribbon cables or whatever

00:30:51   it just maybe you'd make it weird to disassemble I don't know but anyway yeah

00:30:54   and it's definitely not laminated together and so you've got that air gap

00:30:57   which increases the glare and also that's where the dust gets caught if you

00:31:00   ever have to bring another thing to get service yeah those are two of two two pet

00:31:04   peeves that you and I share together I do not like glare on my displays and I

00:31:08   do not like machine noise. So I'm pretty satisfied. I'm pretty sure that it's going to be... I

00:31:16   didn't take it out of the box yet. I had too much to do today, so I wasn't even ready for

00:31:20   it. But I'm pretty excited that it's not going to be noisy. I'm a little worried about the

00:31:25   glare.

00:31:26   I've kind of made my peace with the glare because I have the Apple 24-inch display at

00:31:31   work. The first one that was kind of like the iMac type screen where it's... It looks

00:31:36   like the Thunderbolt display but 24 inches and it was it predates it but

00:31:40   it's got the same thing air gap and the screen and I'm in an office with you

00:31:44   know fluorescent lights and also other things and there are reflection things

00:31:47   but the compared to all my co-workers displays which are like these Dell or

00:31:51   Viewsonic things or even like their their laptop displays and stuff just the

00:31:57   brightness and viewing angle like that the ridiculous brightness that these

00:31:59   things have the LED backlit screens you never crank them up to the brightness in

00:32:03   regular house but in an office setting where just you know the fluorescent

00:32:06   lights are everywhere and it's all super bright the ability to crank your screen

00:32:09   up can really power through any other sort of glare and it's just it's so much

00:32:14   easier to see things in my screen than anybody who is around me I look at their

00:32:17   screens and you can't see a thing because I mean because the viewing

00:32:20   angles are bad because everything is so dim and muddy so there are advantages to

00:32:25   this this type of design where it's just crystal clear piece of glass and a super

00:32:29   bright screen behind it worst case you can just crank it up again of course my

00:32:33   My wife has a Thunderbolt display right behind me and I look at that all the time.

00:32:36   That looks really nice too.

00:32:37   So I think I'm going to be okay with a screen like the one you've got on your iMac if I

00:32:41   ever get it.

00:32:42   Yeah, and the other thing that makes me feel pretty good about it is I'm okay with the

00:32:45   glare on the current MacBooks.

00:32:48   Like at least the retina one that I have now.

00:32:50   Those are laminated too though, aren't they?

00:32:51   Oh, I didn't think so.

00:32:52   The most recent retina.

00:32:53   I don't know.

00:32:54   Maybe they are.

00:32:55   Oh.

00:32:56   I think they are.

00:32:57   I think that my first impression when they first had the retina 15-inch like back at

00:33:01   WWC and we're looking to Jason snails or whatever it was like the colors were like up on the surface of the screen the same

00:33:06   Type of thing you got with the iPhone 4 right? Yeah, that's my guess. Maybe that's how they keep the

00:33:11   whole lid so thin

00:33:13   Because it's you know, seriously seriously thin

00:33:17   Well, I still feel like that though

00:33:19   I I remember when it was sort of a I don't know how many years it was

00:33:23   I would say maybe in my mind it was around a three or four year period where

00:33:28   there was like this great divide between, for laptops at least, glossy and matte displays.

00:33:38   And Apple stuck with matte, and the whole PC industry went glossy. And every time I go,

00:33:44   like in a Starbucks or something, and I'd see people using, you know, Windows PCs,

00:33:48   I would just be flabbergasted at how like reflective their displays are. And then Apple

00:33:55   Started offering it was like a choice

00:33:57   What do you think it was about a you maybe the two or three years where we you when you'd buy a new?

00:34:02   You know it's probably the power book era

00:34:04   I guess there wasn't even Mac books yet, but you'd get a choice between matte and glossy

00:34:09   And that's one of those things where I never hesitated for a second. It was of course. I want matte I

00:34:14   Think I question can remember this I know what the PC people did for their glossy ones is they didn't do what Apple?

00:34:21   has come to do now which is have a

00:34:23   clear piece of glass

00:34:25   on top of an LCD screen.

00:34:28   I think maybe Apple's first glossy screens, but certainly also the PC glossy screens that sort of kicked off the thing,

00:34:34   were plastic-y, but it was like super shiny plastic. I don't know if it was polycarbonate or something like that, but

00:34:40   it had kind of like a sticky, wavy kind of look instead of what you get from a piece of glass, which is, you know, dead flat and like stiff, you know what I mean?

00:34:49   And that made the screens look not only shiny, but also cheap.

00:34:53   And I seem to recall Apple's first glossy displays being like that too, and that's why it was like,

00:34:57   "Who in the world would ever want that? It just looks awful."

00:35:00   When they switched to the big piece of glass, a big heavy piece of glass, and it made the lids heavier,

00:35:05   and it wasn't great, and it was a huge air gap, at least that looked a little bit classier to me,

00:35:10   like more, Johnny Ive would say, more honest materials, you know?

00:35:13   Like, when they finally sort of honed in, "Oh yeah, aluminum and glass, we're gonna do that for a few years,"

00:35:19   that settled things down a little bit.

00:35:20   But but even then and a lot of people who got the matte display just just for reflection reasons

00:35:25   Yeah, I totally did

00:35:28   It's just funny though

00:35:30   That's that that used to be a thing and I'm still you know because my display my desktop display is so ancient

00:35:36   I think it's literally 10 years old

00:35:38   If I didn't buy it in 2004 it was soon after

00:35:42   It's you know it's like a relic I

00:35:46   Have to say it was money well spent

00:35:49   I don't know how you stayed with 20 inch resolution for all because I I feel myself

00:35:55   Just I wish I could get out of this 23 inch like 1920 by 1200

00:35:59   I that's just like barely big enough to contain me, but I feel boxed in the I always I thought it was too small the whole time

00:36:05   But eventually I got used to it and it you know

00:36:11   It I don't know

00:36:15   Did you pare down like your work environment where you like you don't have as many windows open as you would normally have and just

00:36:20   Kind of try to go into like I'm just gonna have one central window with a text editor and then off to the sidewalk

00:36:24   You know web browser with a bunch of tabs and that's now I you know effectively I wrote it's with a 20 inch display

00:36:29   It's a lot like using just a supersized like the lunch tray

00:36:32   MacBook, you know the seven so do you like to full screen? No, not full screen, but for the most part everything

00:36:39   I'm working on is just in a stack of windows and I have to command tab between them

00:36:42   It's not big enough to do a lot of side by side.

00:36:45   So I'm really looking forward to that with the 27 inch.

00:36:48   - Yeah, now I have over the many years honed

00:36:50   by sort of like layering and positioning system

00:36:53   for my windows, which other people look at

00:36:54   and can't make heads or tails of.

00:36:55   But when I'm constrained and I start to have

00:36:57   a lot of windows, I start running out of places

00:37:00   for the corners to poke out.

00:37:01   Like that's, you know, the system is like,

00:37:02   I've got things in corners and windows sized and shaped

00:37:06   so that I can find a clickable region.

00:37:08   That's just the way I work with Macs, you know,

00:37:11   starting from the 80s

00:37:12   But when I just have too many damn windows I run out of places to have clickable stuff

00:37:17   And if I ever find myself I can do command tilde not command tab

00:37:20   But command tilde within an app to cycle through the windows

00:37:22   I feel like I've been defeated by the lack of space so I really I really can't wait to get a 27 inch

00:37:28   equivalent point resolution screen

00:37:31   So I can't review it yet

00:37:33   I literally didn't even take it out of the box

00:37:35   But having seen it at first hand last week

00:37:37   And I know a lot, they're in the stores now too, and I've seen a lot of people who are at least going in to look at them.

00:37:42   It's gorgeous, it really is. I don't rush into it. Like I said, I'm replacing at my desk at least a six-year-old computer and a ten-year-old display.

00:37:53   But I didn't hesitate to buy it on day one.

00:37:57   And I know you guys talked on ATP that it's risky because there's a lot of times first-generation stuff from Apple has kinks to be worked out.

00:38:05   to be worked out.

00:38:06   Image retention, of course, is a huge question mark at this point.

00:38:10   I think Jason said, Jason Snell did Marco's little image retention test and said that

00:38:15   his iMac, which he got already, as well, passed with flying colors.

00:38:19   So it seems clear on that front, unless they're using two manufacturers and he got the…

00:38:22   Right.

00:38:23   And it's in theory that's possible because Snell's is a review unit and they, you know,

00:38:28   I'm almost, I don't know for a fact, but I'm 99.99% sure that they sanity checked

00:38:34   the review unit, you know, that they,

00:38:36   they're not like factory sealed, you know,

00:38:38   that there's a white glove guy who makes sure

00:38:40   that this is a good, you know, there's no--

00:38:42   - Yours aren't factory sealed?

00:38:43   'Cause I just got, for the first time,

00:38:46   I got a bunch of loaner Apple hardware

00:38:48   for the Yosemite review, and it looked pretty darn

00:38:50   factory sealed right down to the little static link stuff.

00:38:52   - I think they re-wrapped them back up.

00:38:54   - Can you do that? - Yeah.

00:38:56   - Like that was a game, you know, again,

00:38:59   it's a novelty for me to be getting review hardware.

00:39:01   And part of the game I played was,

00:39:03   I'm going to rewrap these things so they look like I didn't take them out

00:39:05   So I saved all the static cling stuff and I put it back on and putting it back on is super hard

00:39:09   Like you can't get it lined up right now. Can you wrap a gift?

00:39:13   Not great it doesn't look it looks when I wrap a gift it looks like dad wrote wrapped it

00:39:20   It does not look like nice and even no matter how much I try I can't I know how to do it now

00:39:27   Now I've reached the age where I know what I need to do to make it look good

00:39:30   But at a certain point I just don't care anymore and like it all comes down to having the right length overhangs

00:39:34   Yeah

00:39:34   If you don't have the right length overhangs no amount of skill and folding is gonna save you and then you realize you don't have

00:39:39   The right overhangs and you try to like trim it while it's wrapped around the thing to make the oh

00:39:42   And then that just gets a ragged edge and you just like you know what screw it fold fold fold, right?

00:39:45   Good there comes a point where you're you set out to make it like I want to wrap one as good as my wife can

00:39:51   Wrap a present but eventually I run into that situation and I think wait

00:39:55   This is just gonna be garbage ten seconds after I give it

00:39:59   Yeah, you don't try to think don't try to think about it while you're doing it

00:40:02   It's like what am I doing here?

00:40:04   Especially when you're wrapping something and it's like a gift for your wife and she already knows what it is

00:40:07   It's like what have we even doing here? But like you just got it's gonna plow ahead bravely

00:40:11   I should just wrap it in the receipt

00:40:13   Remember wrapping things in the funny pages that come yeah, that was some newspaper was a huge thing when we were kids

00:40:21   Nobody does that anymore probably because no one gets newspapers

00:40:24   They would like leave it would leave newsprint all over everything and it was like who does it?

00:40:28   I guess it was just like our parents saving money on wrapping paper. Yeah, I guess or maybe you know

00:40:33   Maybe a little bit of column a saving money and a little bit column B where all of a sudden it's Saturday

00:40:40   I forgot I forgot it was the bird

00:40:42   Yeah, it's well it's Saturday morning and the party is at noon and you remember you have the gift you bought the gift

00:40:49   Did you know target the other day?

00:40:50   But you didn't buy wrapping paper because you thought you still had a closet full of it and you don't and well

00:40:55   We'll just use the Sunday paper

00:40:57   Yeah, but that was definitely I would I would say when I was a kid like lower grade school

00:41:03   I would say probably about a third of all the gifts that I got were wrapped in the Sunday paper Sunday

00:41:08   Well, I I wonder how long we have to go with the school books being wrapped in

00:41:13   Grocery bags. Oh, I remember that for the covers, right?

00:41:17   so I think they still do that but now the big thing and all of the you know, the

00:41:24   Fancy stores like Whole Foods and everything is to have cloth reusable cloth bags

00:41:27   You don't make all that paper waste so I wonder how long those things will be around yeah

00:41:31   How long can you get a paper bag?

00:41:33   Whole Foods gives out paper bags because oh yeah

00:41:35   If you don't if you don't have the little cloth bag because you forgot to put them in the trunk of your car

00:41:39   They give you a dirty look and they put your stuff in a paper bag

00:41:41   Hell yeah, there's like a passive-aggressive. Oh you didn't bring a bag oh

00:41:46   You don't care about the penguins who are gonna choke to death on the bag

00:41:51   I'm gonna put your stuff in well enjoy your $5 avocados

00:41:54   Organic I've heard that if I've heard that if you eat organic produce you cannot get Ebola

00:42:02   Yeah, so there finally is an advantage there's a reason to buy the 89 cents a pound organic bananas instead of the 69 cents a

00:42:11   Pound regular bananas because it'll yeah, it'll immunize you against Ebola

00:42:15   And they all they come with organic fruit flies that will invade your house if you leave them on your counter - they're adorable

00:42:21   They're absolutely adorable fruit flies

00:42:23   I

00:42:29   Might as well take a break and I'll do a second sponsor because it seems like a good a good time to break

00:42:34   But then we'll go back. I want to talk about next last week's event a little bit too before we get into Yosemite

00:42:40   But I want to take a break and thank

00:42:45   One well, I love all sponsors, but I love I love this one a little more than most are good friends at back blaze

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00:45:16   works great with Yosemite -

00:45:18   So last week's event I

00:45:24   I thought it was a little weird.

00:45:28   You guys touched on this on ATP with Phil Schiller.

00:45:32   Was he flat or not?

00:45:34   And I got a bunch of emails and tweets from people who were like, "Hey, what's up with

00:45:37   Phil?

00:45:38   Was he like..."

00:45:39   You know, something seemed wrong with Phil.

00:45:40   You seem distracted is the word I use.

00:45:45   I didn't notice this during the event.

00:45:47   I thought Phil was just Phil.

00:45:49   It's sort of downbeat Phil.

00:45:53   like this is not a big deal Phil and I think it was very deliberate I think it

00:45:59   was sort of low-key maybe I would say I wouldn't say distracted well but he's

00:46:04   always like that to some degree right he's the pace of his speaking and his

00:46:09   presenting style is always a little bit weird like that maybe he was up next to

00:46:15   people who are doing more fake enthusiasm about things or being but I

00:46:19   just he occasionally does seem distracted about stuff sometimes I feel

00:46:22   he's distracted because he's thinking about the next thing he's gonna present, even though

00:46:25   he's been doing this for so long, like that he's thinking about the next thing he's gonna

00:46:29   present, trying to remember the things he's gonna do in the demo or whatever, and he'll

00:46:33   get inside his own head about that, and like, forget to fake enthusiasm about something

00:46:39   that he's seen a million times before.

00:46:41   But it did not stick out to me much, like I mostly just thought it was just, you know,

00:46:47   Phil's a Loki kind of guy and this is the way he presents, and if you've seen it so

00:46:49   much that kind of fades into the wallpaper, but I always occasionally see him kind of

00:46:54   be distracted. I forget if the timing of the thing, was this before or after the road trip

00:47:01   typo thing? No, the demo of the guys who did a typo during the thing and they fixed it

00:47:06   in post, remember that? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Who made the video editing thing? I forget

00:47:14   if the time, if it was after that, it's like he could have been thinking about that, but

00:47:17   He's like, God, we rehearsed this so many times.

00:47:18   How did we screw up this demo?

00:47:20   But if it was before that, I don't have an explanation.

00:47:23   Yeah, what was the deal with that?

00:47:24   I didn't know that they fixed it in post.

00:47:26   I remember I didn't notice it during the event,

00:47:28   and a lot of people pointed it out.

00:47:29   Was it a Federighi demo where he mistyped road trip?

00:47:32   No, it was like people who--

00:47:34   third-party software developers.

00:47:36   I forget who they are.

00:47:37   And they were showing off their video and they were--

00:47:39   Yeah, and they were not native English speakers.

00:47:42   The guy who was running the demo machine,

00:47:44   he fell victim to autocorrect.

00:47:47   I think it could auto-corrected Utah to its instead of Utah road trip. It was its road trip

00:47:51   And the guy shook his head and was pissed at himself for like falling victim to autocorrect and then just plowed forward with the demo

00:47:58   but then in post they they have somewhat a good YouTube clip of an out analyzing this in post they

00:48:03   rescreen captured the screen image and

00:48:06   Froze his image of himself

00:48:08   Before he does the head shake and then transitioned him at post head shake

00:48:12   It was pretty good at it like this

00:48:14   it's side by side you see the person you see the screen and they more or less seamlessly

00:48:17   made it seem like that did not happen but just fine like okay that's pretty cool it

00:48:21   is shows you that apple sweats the detail oh yeah no like they rehearse it so many times

00:48:26   it's like you could see the autocorrect bubble like we all know autocorrect don't hit spacebar

00:48:31   it's going to complete the it's my favorite little detail i i'm actually it's like to

00:48:38   get the ipad review out i had to shelve it but i still want to write my write a daring

00:48:42   Fireball piece on my thoughts on last week's event.

00:48:46   My favorite little thing, and I'm not surprised, and you won't be surprised, but I had to double

00:48:51   check is that image that they used a couple of times showing a watch, a phone, an iPad,

00:48:59   a Mac, a book, and now the iMac.

00:49:04   I thought clearly an homage to that evolution image, even though it sort of goes the other

00:49:10   way where the Mac was first and these other products you know came later it's

00:49:14   sort of left to right newest to oldest but I thought that was a really telling

00:49:19   image I thought it was especially telling that they used it multiple times

00:49:23   early on with Tim Cook and then like in the wrap-up but I checked and of course

00:49:28   they made two versions of it the first one was with an iPad air original iPad

00:49:35   Air and the one they used at the end when Tim Cook closed the iPad is thinner

00:49:40   And it's no yeah, if you look at him side by side

00:49:42   It's very noticeable that they made a second version with a thinner iPad even though they're only showing them from the side and it

00:49:48   At any given moment it was it was impossible to tell which generation iPad it was because it was from the side

00:49:53   Did they make the iPad the iMac external case proportions change at all?

00:49:58   With the retina

00:50:01   Yeah, I can't tell it because that's the one I would look for replacement

00:50:05   But if they're exactly the same you'll be able to tell like from the side

00:50:07   Yeah, like if they had slimmed it down or maybe you can't tell from that angle. But yeah

00:50:11   They were obviously very proud of that thing. Although when it first came up, I read it as like I

00:50:16   Knew they weren't trying to make it text

00:50:19   But but it kind of looked like I guess Elo had been on my mind that weird social network thing or whatever

00:50:23   It's like this kind of looks like it could be letters

00:50:25   They could spell things out with that if they wanted but that's not what it was

00:50:27   The evolution thing is much closer analogy because it's from you have a hunch thing to the standing up things

00:50:33   You got to put the tallest one on the right even if it's you know, yeah

00:50:36   Yeah, I'm looking at him now side by side it

00:50:38   they changed the lighting on the iMac in the between the two slides and it makes the

00:50:44   App the the after one it looks a little thinner

00:50:47   but I it looks to me though that it's just that they that they change the lighting and there's

00:50:52   Less of it and more of it's in shadow

00:50:55   It's just a different product like that

00:50:57   It's a different product shot like you know when they when they brought up the new iMac to take a shot of it the lighting

00:51:01   Wasn't the same as when they have that older iMac take a shot of it

00:51:03   so it shows up differently.

00:51:05   I think you linked to a few people talking about this,

00:51:07   and I mostly agree with whatever person you linked to

00:51:09   that was saying like, this is cute and all,

00:51:12   but it doesn't communicate to people

00:51:14   who aren't already on board much of anything

00:51:16   because regular people might not even understand

00:51:19   what they're looking at, let alone which device is which.

00:51:22   Like Apple was clearly excited and proud of it

00:51:25   and we Apple followers and nerds thought it was clever

00:51:27   and interesting and novel because you have to find

00:51:29   some interesting way to show these things

00:51:31   instead of just like, here's all the screens

00:51:32   with black borders that Apple makes.

00:51:34   They come in different sizes, right?

00:51:35   And you know, one of them has a little stand at the end.

00:51:37   So coming up with new and interesting ways

00:51:39   to photograph Apple's product line is a challenge

00:51:42   that is mostly relevant to people who either work at Apple

00:51:46   or who have been following Apple for a long time.

00:51:48   Whereas if you throw that image up

00:51:50   in front of regular people,

00:51:51   I'm not sure how well it will communicate anything

00:51:53   or read to them at all.

00:51:54   But I, you know, the audience for this Apple event,

00:51:56   anyone, this is not the iPhone event.

00:51:58   This is the lesser event in, what was it,

00:52:01   in a town hall or whatever?

00:52:02   small room mostly of interest to Apple follower so it was the appropriate venue

00:52:08   for that image but I'm not sure how well it reads there yeah I don't think it

00:52:11   that's why I found it interesting because there's two parts to the to the

00:52:16   Apple presentations not necessarily two halves but there's two types of messages

00:52:21   they seek to convey some are for the mass market and they sometimes even

00:52:25   showed that actual commercials that they're going to put on real TV they'll

00:52:28   just show the commercial right there. So it's exactly what they're going to be

00:52:33   pushing in their marketing to hundreds of millions of real people through

00:52:38   advertising. But then other parts are the as close as Apple will get to inside

00:52:43   baseball. And that's meant for like us in the media who are then going to you know

00:52:52   it's it's it's like they're playing a bank shot. They're trying to get us to

00:52:56   Understand them so that when we write about them to the mass market that we're going to have it

00:53:03   Right that we we see what Apple is seen

00:53:05   Yeah, they're gonna emphasize the parts that they think will tickle our the fancy of the Apple fans

00:53:12   Like they're going to show you the video about the manufacturing process and emphasize the beauty of one particular physical feature

00:53:17   So that in the hopes that when you write you review that feature that you might have overlooked you'll say well

00:53:22   I just they showed this whole five-minute video of a factory and Johnny I've in his white world talking about it and

00:53:27   Suddenly that's more prominent in your mind. It's just basically basic, you know talking to the press type of things

00:53:32   But they will they're never going to show that video of the Mac Pro factory to regular people

00:53:37   They don't care about the macro at all period and and certainly not how or where it's built

00:53:41   They're all the things they did about the unibody or whatever

00:53:43   Like they can say it's unibody and they can give the thing out or whatever

00:53:46   But they're gonna show those

00:53:47   those computer controlled milling machines

00:53:49   with the water going over them

00:53:51   and just talk about it forever.

00:53:52   Like when they came out with the MacBook Air

00:53:53   and then to the subsequent unit bodies,

00:53:55   they really hammered on that

00:53:56   to try to get the message across to the press

00:53:58   who would then get the message across that,

00:54:00   hey, I know you understand what unit body is

00:54:02   and I know you're gonna see it's one piece and blah, blah,

00:54:04   blah, but it actually makes a difference

00:54:06   and it's a big deal.

00:54:07   And that's the bank shot,

00:54:09   five minute video on CNC milling machines.

00:54:12   And that hopefully translates to a little bit extra emphasis

00:54:15   when the first unit body product

00:54:16   not in the consumer facing product reviews.

00:54:21   Another I just I love this image and I think another answer somebody compared it somebody

00:54:24   on Twitter compared it to one from one of the recent events that Microsoft had for like

00:54:31   the surface probably the surface pro 3 event and they had a table lined up in their hands

00:54:36   on area with Nokia phones and surface pros and some of them on the table and some of

00:54:44   them in a laptop stand and desktop computers and laptop computers, you know, up to the,

00:54:49   you know, whatever the HP equivalent of an iMac is.

00:54:53   All of them running exactly the same start screen, you know, this blue, you know, blue

00:54:59   colored, whatever they, whatever they renamed Metro interface, you know, and that what a

00:55:04   country, you know, it's a philosophical contrast where, you know, Microsoft went in this direction

00:55:09   where you get the exact same interface across phone from phone to you know 30

00:55:14   inch desktop display and Apple you know when it ends is you know reiterated this

00:55:21   year you know that each each of these devices gets an interface that is just

00:55:25   for that form factor and include you know making them very different and you

00:55:31   know we can even talk about when we still move get into your Yosemite

00:55:34   review the way that Yosemite is clearly inspired by the direction that iOS 7

00:55:39   went but it's it even at a glance just if you've been tuned out for six months

00:55:45   and still haven't even seen Yosemite and you took a look at it right now you

00:55:48   wouldn't think oh they copied iOS 7 that it's you know the exact same thing it's

00:55:53   different it's a family resemblance but it's like a brother or cousin it is not

00:55:58   an identical twin. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, like a sibling, not a twin. And I think showing

00:56:05   these devices in this promotional image for us, you know, this press image where you don't

00:56:08   even see the display, is in a strange way emphasizes that what you would see on the

00:56:15   displays are very different across them. And also think, and I think this is always interesting

00:56:21   to me and I try to think about it, is what are the things that Apple is trying to convey

00:56:26   to us that they can't bring themselves to say for various reasons because it's

00:56:32   you know they just couldn't say that and to me this one of the things with this

00:56:36   image in a way that they spoke about it is that they don't expect or even want

00:56:44   everybody to buy everything you're not supposed to have an iMac and a MacBook

00:56:48   and an iPad and an iPad mini and you know a phone and a watch if you do great

00:56:55   You know, you're a great customer, but if you just have two of them, that's great

00:57:00   You know, maybe you have this, you know, like the iPhone 6 plus and because it's a huge phone

00:57:06   you feel like now I don't need an iPad and

00:57:08   Your only other product is a MacBook and you just use that MacBook everywhere use it at your desk

00:57:14   You use it when you travel and that's it. You're a that's a perfect you're a perfectly

00:57:21   Encourage that's that's that's absolutely encouraged, but they can't say that they can't say it's okay if you don't buy this

00:57:27   You know what I mean?

00:57:28   It's you you can't get on stage and say you know this cool new iMac that we just showed you it

00:57:32   It's totally fine

00:57:33   If you don't buy it and just use a MacBook

00:57:35   Yeah, we talked about this on an ATP a little while ago about how they even just within the iOS device range

00:57:40   But anyway, you need all them if you see them head-on or whatever again

00:57:42   They all just look like a black border around a color LCD screen of various sizes

00:57:48   But now they really fleshed out the range especially with the watch being a little tiny thing and then you have all the different various sizes

00:57:54   of iPhones and the big one and then the biggest one gets close to the mini and then you have that you know, like it's a

00:57:59   Pretty smooth scale up of rectangular color screens that you can buy from Apple all up to the big giant retina one that you bought

00:58:06   But and as the physical form factors have started to form the smooth scale that they're kind of showing in this image here

00:58:14   There's still discontinuities because what is the difference between an iPhone 6 plus and an iPad one runs iPad apps and one runs?

00:58:23   Phone apps and the line between them, you know

00:58:27   we're saying an ATP is probably going to go away sometime in the near future because that distinction like

00:58:31   If you were to get an iPhone 6 plus go to the App Store and be like, oh I totally want this game

00:58:37   Or this app and they're like, oh sorry you can't this iPad only it's like what do you mean?

00:58:41   I've had only like the iPad isn't that much bigger than the screen. I'm holding my hand

00:58:44   What is it about the thing I'm holding in my hand that means it can't run a quote unquote iPad app

00:58:48   That distinction seems like it's gonna go away

00:58:50   But this the other gap of like you get the you know

00:58:52   The iPad air or if they were coming with like an iPad Pro and then to a MacBook Air which presumably go right into

00:58:57   Why are these so different like well is easier to explain one as a keyboard but they run totally different OS is one is touch

00:59:03   one is not touch

00:59:04   like

00:59:06   They Apple is expecting you to pick your spot in their product line where you feel comfortable because there are

00:59:11   Discontinuity still and I they're never gonna paper over them to the degree that Microsoft does like Oh one OS everywhere

00:59:16   Cuz that's not what Apple believes in but in any kind of

00:59:19   Transition like there's another discontinuity when you go from the phone to the watch because it just has to be it can't work the same

00:59:23   Way, it's just too small or whatever

00:59:25   So these little gaps like if they were to space it out would be like watch

00:59:28   Big gap phone phone phone tiny gap iPad bigger gap laptop even bigger gap

00:59:34   I'm at you know, and you're supposed to pick in that range of like

00:59:38   you know like a Chinese food menu one from column a one from column B like and

00:59:42   Make up the suite of devices that that fill out your life

00:59:46   and I

00:59:46   by having this range

00:59:48   I think obviously someone's not just gonna buy the watch and not have a PC and not have a cell phone like there you're gonna have

00:59:53   Something in this range just which ones do you think you need no one needs to fill in all the gaps

00:59:56   Yeah, and then they but they can't say it that in that way, right and I well

01:00:03   They say it in the way like we have something for every yeah

01:00:05   You know like they just say look at this range like look at the richest of this range

01:00:08   There's surely there is something that fits your needs like we you know

01:00:12   They're fleshing it out like diversifying the iPhone line for the longest time like the iPhone was the iPhone and everybody wanted like

01:00:17   Even now you said is room for diversification of like, you know, make one thicker and have longer battery life or something

01:00:22   But like they've diversified their line to say

01:00:24   Something for everybody and the same way they don't expect you to buy two iPhones like the big one in the small one or your night

01:00:29   Phone or your day phone?

01:00:31   It's the same thing that they don't say that because they think it's obvious but

01:00:35   Just like they're not going to say if you if you buy you know a MacBook Pro

01:00:39   We probably don't expect you to buy an iMac because the mac or pro is a completely fully capable awesome machine

01:00:45   You can do everything on but if you're the kind of person who wants a desktop we will offer one of those two

01:00:50   Yeah

01:00:53   Mac Pro it I some people wrote to me

01:01:02   After the iMac announcement and they're sort of I have obviously they've bought a Mac Pro in the last ten months

01:01:08   And they're angry that the Marco right now Marco, you know did not get angry. He just went out and bought an iMac

01:01:16   But to me that's so totally not surprising

01:01:22   You know that that even though the Mac Pro is a very expensive

01:01:25   Machine and it in theory should always be at the leading edge of technology and it is in a lot of ways

01:01:32   That it didn't go retina first

01:01:35   Or at least simultaneously and probably not even close like I know I have Marco's logic of why he doesn't think a standalone 5k

01:01:43   display is gonna ship from Apple until

01:01:45   2016 is pretty sound because it there's a lot of I think he's I think it probably does need

01:01:51   DisplayPort slash Thunderbolt, you know 1.3 slash Thunderbolt 3

01:01:56   Because they're not gonna do that. They're not gonna have you run two cables to drive it

01:02:00   Just yeah, I mean that was always obvious that there's an advantage of an all-in-one

01:02:05   The advantage the all-in-one has is they can use whatever the hell interconnect they want inside that box, right?

01:02:09   It doesn't need to conform to any specification

01:02:11   It doesn't need to they could just do what do what you got to do to make it work

01:02:15   It all happens inside the box

01:02:16   and so you're always going to have an advantage for that thing if it happened that a

01:02:20   Standardized external interconnect existed for retina displays in the same time frame as the Mac Pro the Mac Pro would have had it first

01:02:27   Yeah

01:02:27   but it just so happened that it didn't what and then you're like, okay, well, we need to get written out there somehow and

01:02:33   because the Mac Pro uses the the Xeon parts and because they're generation behind and because we don't have the external internet Apple just did

01:02:41   Whatever the hell it took to get it done inside this iMac box and don't worry about what goes on behind the curtain, right?

01:02:45   But it does create this weird and in in the historical time, you know, five six seven years from now

01:02:51   We're gonna look back on it and it'll just be compressed and we'll just remember that the iMac was first and everything

01:02:57   you know, the standalone displays for a second.

01:03:00   In the interim though, it is weird that the iMac

01:03:03   is gonna have these super amazing retina displays

01:03:05   and the Mac Pro, no matter how much money you spend on it,

01:03:07   won't, unless, you know.

01:03:09   - Well, I mean, you can get a 4K display,

01:03:11   not from Apple. - Right.

01:03:12   - For your Mac, and then you'd buy one of those,

01:03:14   like, special, you know, ones for photography

01:03:16   that has a bigger color gamut and has better accuracy

01:03:19   and, you know, buy it from NEC.

01:03:20   It's like the people who are buying Mac Pros

01:03:23   might already have these super high-res monitors

01:03:26   4K video editing that conform to different standards than this consumer iMac screen does.

01:03:32   So it's not...

01:03:33   The people who might be complaining are people who had bought a Mac Pro but didn't really

01:03:38   need one and just wanted to have a king of the machine now they don't.

01:03:40   Right.

01:03:41   That's...

01:03:42   Because I do think that's what irks them is that now until there's a 5K standalone display,

01:03:50   and when that comes out, it won't run on the...

01:03:52   You're gonna have to get a new Mac Pro anyway.

01:03:53   Yeah.

01:03:54   All right.

01:03:55   One of the many reasons that I didn't buy one is like well if I was waiting for retina

01:03:59   This Mac Pro is not the machine because we know what it's capable of we know Apple didn't even offer any monitors

01:04:04   I didn't want a third-party modern if I did have a third-party, and I didn't want it to be 4k

01:04:08   I wanted what Apple made here. I wanted 27 inch the resolution of my wife's 27 inch Thunderbolt display

01:04:13   It just doubled the the number of pixels vertically and horizontally there's that that's the thing that really blew me away at first

01:04:20   I was like

01:04:21   waiting for the, well there's gotta be a catch.

01:04:24   And then I thought about like with the iPhone 6 Plus,

01:04:27   where it's not really 3x retina, it's 2.8 retina or 2.6,

01:04:32   and they just use scaling to make it work.

01:04:35   And it looks pretty good, but it's still not the same.

01:04:38   I thought, ah, maybe it's like a scaling thing.

01:04:40   And then they gave the pixel dimensions,

01:04:42   and I'm like dividing in my head, and I'm like,

01:04:44   ooh, that sounds like actual 2x retina, and it is.

01:04:48   - Yeah, now Dell had announced a monitor

01:04:51   with similar specs.

01:04:52   So as soon as Dell announced it, you're like,

01:04:53   "Okay, well this must be technically possible now

01:04:56   "if Dell is gonna offer one."

01:04:57   So once it's technically possible,

01:04:58   then it's just like,

01:04:59   when does Apple have a product that this could,

01:05:01   I mean, if the iMac didn't exist,

01:05:03   and Dell comes out with this monitor,

01:05:05   that the current Mac Pros can't drive with a single cable,

01:05:08   and might not be able to drive with two,

01:05:10   depending on how they did it,

01:05:11   then we just would've all been waiting,

01:05:12   and we'd be like,

01:05:13   "Well, Dell's got these monitors, but we can't have them."

01:05:15   But the iMac does exist,

01:05:16   and it gave Apple an opportunity to,

01:05:19   we can get, as soon as those displays are available,

01:05:22   we gotta get one into one of our machines

01:05:23   and the iMac is the way to make that happen.

01:05:25   - So fame is, knock on wood,

01:05:27   let's wait until I actually take it out

01:05:29   and set it up and use it, but on paper at least,

01:05:32   and from what I've seen in person,

01:05:33   this is the Mac I've been waiting for close to 10 years.

01:05:37   - It's gonna be a big upgrade for you.

01:05:40   - Oh, huge upgrade.

01:05:41   Ever since, I remember when they first started talking

01:05:44   about it at WWDC in maybe 2006, 2007,

01:05:48   but they called it, what did they call it?

01:05:52   Before they had the word retina.

01:05:53   - High DPI, resolution independence.

01:05:56   Scalable UI, lots of things.

01:05:57   - Resolution independence was the thing.

01:06:00   And I remember, 'cause, and I mention this too,

01:06:02   like my fellow obsessive on resolution independence

01:06:05   is Cable Sasser at Panic.

01:06:07   And I remember going to the session at WWDC with him

01:06:11   and we came out so excited and he was like,

01:06:14   we're gonna redo all the graphics

01:06:16   and all of our apps as PDFs.

01:06:18   And they did, in fact.

01:06:19   Panic started shipping apps with scalable PDF icons

01:06:24   and stuff like that inside for toolbars

01:06:26   and stuff like that years ago.

01:06:28   Because Cable and I both convinced ourselves,

01:06:32   I don't even know what we were thinking.

01:06:33   I mean, it--

01:06:34   - Well, it's not just you.

01:06:35   Like, if you go back through my old OS X reviews,

01:06:37   Apple made promises.

01:06:39   They're like, by 2008, our whole product line

01:06:41   will be resolution independent, so get ready.

01:06:43   That was like 2006 when they said that, right?

01:06:45   They gave a year and a date,

01:06:47   And like every year like there used to be a section in my OS X reviews is like

01:06:50   You know resolution independence

01:06:52   How's that going along and I would take a little screenshot of text edit in like 2x mode or 1.5x mode

01:06:57   You see what a train wreck it is, you know, like and that's why this is still not a user facing picture

01:07:01   See you next year. We just convinced ourselves that the like retina IMAX we're gonna be coming out in like 2008 and

01:07:08   We were so excited. We wanted to get in line to buy one then

01:07:11   And it took until now

01:07:14   Just I mean it was so much easier to make the iPhone 4 screen. It's way smaller

01:07:17   It's fewer pixels, and it's just so hard to make it that density

01:07:21   You know so we had to wait a long time before it was economically feasible to make a screen this massive

01:07:26   I mean that was the whole thing with the retina

01:07:27   It's like well

01:07:28   Maybe they could do this earlier if like maybe they'll just do it for the 21 inch

01:07:31   I Mac right because they could have gone that they could have probably made that one retina sooner

01:07:35   It would have been like 4k ish or 3k ish type resolution, but no they went for the whole enchilada

01:07:40   Yeah, and it's really as far as I can tell no compromise

01:07:43   It's you know in terms of the number of pixels the way they're doing it. You know that there's

01:07:48   No, no cheapening out on it. It's super bright

01:07:51   It's amazing to me because that was the other thing too during the the event last week

01:07:56   after you know Phil gave the specs and the size and

01:08:01   You know, I I thought well, you know what it's gonna be power

01:08:06   It's kind of this thing it's because that's you know, it's a huge problem all these pixels lighting it up

01:08:09   Is this thing gonna get super hot and instead it takes less power, which is crazy

01:08:15   Yeah, that that's the thing that made me feel good about the machine that like

01:08:20   That it's not gonna be just at the ragged edge of what's possible to wedge into this thing, right?

01:08:25   You know with the cooling and everything so they you know

01:08:27   The GPU is hotter but they made up for it by actually making a screen consume less

01:08:31   Yeah, my hope is that it's what bite by not compromising and clearly like you said they could have shipped something sooner

01:08:38   whether it was like the go 21 inch first or make it a 27 inch 4k display and use scaling to make

01:08:45   the onscreen elements a reasonable size as opposed to making everything cartoonishly large.

01:08:50   They could have done any number of those things within the last few years and didn't. And I think

01:08:57   hopefully it's almost like they're shipping like a 2.0 version of it. That they waited until they

01:09:03   could get everything just right. This is what people who have one sitting in their house tell

01:09:08   themselves to make themselves feel better about first generation Apple products. This

01:09:12   is practically a 2.0. I mean, so far so good. There was a little bit scary moment this morning

01:09:21   when Marco and I had a few people tweeting at us that like, look at this stuttery, like

01:09:26   someone was swiping through spaces on their new Retina 5K iMac and it was like super slow

01:09:31   and stuttery and it was like, uh oh. But then a million other people tweeted and showed

01:09:35   the exact same thing on their 13-inch MacBook Pros.

01:09:38   It's just some weird Yosemite bug.

01:09:41   And then hopefully they'll work out in 1010, which will hopefully come out soon.

01:09:45   Because I had no reproductions at home.

01:09:48   Even on my pre-Unibody MacBook Pro, smooth, doing all that stuff, but then on my Mac at

01:09:53   work that had been on for days that's running Yosemite, I enabled activated mission control,

01:09:58   which I never do otherwise, and it was stuttery.

01:10:00   So I'm like, "Oh, this has got to be Yosemite bug," because we get reports like, "It doesn't

01:10:03   happen all the time and

01:10:05   The best I can tell is that it's some kind of issue that happens when your Mac is on for a really long time

01:10:09   But anyway, there are bugs and that was the only scare so far about the 5k IMAX turns out to be a false alarm

01:10:16   Yeah, I never know how far I can push it in the hands-on areas after these events like

01:10:22   and there's others who are

01:10:24   Bolder than I am who will do it download geek bench and try to yeah, see I wouldn't do that

01:10:30   Yeah, because then they'd stop you there's everyone

01:10:33   It was what's the point like if people gonna get loaner hardware anyway?

01:10:36   Then you can test it for all you want like it's not that thing to do with the hands-on area

01:10:40   Well and I could see how the people that aren't getting review units would be more tempted to do something like that and see if

01:10:48   They can get away with getting yeah

01:10:50   Like the iOS devices like you want to find out if it's three cores in that iPad, right?

01:10:54   So I you know quickly go to some I don't know

01:10:58   Exploit some crazy jailbreak thing to quickly get some little executable to run. Yeah, they they're I think they'll generally cut you off before you

01:11:04   Get that far

01:11:06   But it's funny talking to them because the people who staff the hands-on areas

01:11:11   I think are all I know most of them are but I think all of them work under Schiller in the product marketing

01:11:18   division at Apple and

01:11:21   They're it's easy to think of them

01:11:24   You know

01:11:24   They all wear t-shirts like like they're working in an Apple store or something like that

01:11:27   but they're all like in my experience super super informed about the stuff that you were

01:11:33   That you're talking about like if I'd ask them

01:11:37   Hey, is this three core and is that how it went from two two billion transistors to three?

01:11:43   They would know the answer but they'd also know that they're not allowed to tell me like they're super super important

01:11:48   Yeah, no, they're totally brief. They'd have they have their talking points. They know what they will talk to you about they know

01:11:53   Specific phrasing for you know, if you ask them a question about something and they're gonna tell you something about they're gonna

01:11:57   They're all gonna use the same sentence in the same words. It's it's talking

01:12:00   Well, yeah that they are professional

01:12:02   Yeah, and that's all it's very evident like if you know anybody was there at their first, you know

01:12:06   The first time you get invited to an Apple event you go to the hands-on area

01:12:09   It's very clear that they have a script and they have talking points

01:12:12   but the other thing though, is that they

01:12:15   their full-time jobs

01:12:18   363 other days a year are

01:12:21   working in Apple's product marketing, being hyper informed about all of the technical details of all of Apple's products like these people

01:12:29   Know they know their shit. They know the stuff that's not on the script and it's you know

01:12:36   And they're not going to be fooled by somebody trying to download geekbench or something like that

01:12:40   maybe I could see getting away with it and in the early parts of the hands-on areas because it's so crazy and crowded and

01:12:47   It's everybody wants to get their hands on them at once and maybe you can get away with it

01:12:52   But not for long. My thing was I I they were showing

01:12:55   Photos of course

01:12:59   Big images

01:13:01   Because it you know, it just shows off the thing they commissioned a guy with like one of those

01:13:06   I think they're called hassle bods hassle pads

01:13:08   but you know like this camera that shoots like I

01:13:12   Don't know 50 50 megapixel digital images and like a cityscape

01:13:17   and you can see these details and you can just zoom in and you read like the license plate number on the car and then

01:13:24   Zoom back out and it's you know, you can actually see that it's still being rendered in individual pixels on screen

01:13:29   But I closed that and went to like the finder and opened up like a safari window and then tried to drag it around

01:13:35   The window as fast as I could like that was my benchmark in the hands-on area

01:13:39   Like if I drag a window around as fast as I can does it does it shear?

01:13:43   Yeah, like I think yeah, that was a good thing to test and also, you know

01:13:47   If you think about the the first 15 inch right now MacBook Pro is like scrolling at the maximum resolution

01:13:52   At the one that was bigger than the native screen, you know that that one had a little bit of issues find out

01:13:57   you know probably but the scaling and not with the compositing because compositing has always been fast compositing is

01:14:02   Pretty easy to do that

01:14:03   What you're looking for shearing is because you know

01:14:05   They have to be driving it was like essentially to display port

01:14:08   1.2 connections or the equivalent behind the scenes and like you would look at like the driving the left half of the screen

01:14:12   I right at the screen differently but like I mean that's the type of thing Apple would not ship if you could if you could get

01:14:17   Tearing while dragging windows around I mean Apple never shipped that even when it meant that dragging windows around was slow as molasses

01:14:24   You still didn't get any tearing. That's like I would have been I would have been shocked

01:14:28   But it's like something I had to see to believe. Yeah, I had but that was the extent that I tested it in advance

01:14:34   Yeah, and scrolling I put I positioned a window right in the middle

01:14:38   So if there was a you know if it was some kind of two screens glued together trickery that I

01:14:43   Tried to figure that out and of course, it's not

01:14:46   Anything else from the event last week, I guess there's the iPad to iPad air - which is kind of interesting I

01:14:56   Think the way that they've gone with the air with the iPads is

01:15:01   I

01:15:04   Try to write about it this week that it's there's no real annual pattern to it and I don't think it means that it's directionless

01:15:10   I just feel like

01:15:12   the

01:15:14   Engineering wins that they can pull off each year while maintaining their profit margins are very very different as compared to the iPhone

01:15:22   Which to me seems much more predictable?

01:15:24   The thing with the top-end iPad and the reason I'm still totally in favor on iPad Pro is like

01:15:32   While no one is really paying much attention. They are pushing up the the highest end iOS device

01:15:39   Pushing up really close to PC class in terms of power

01:15:43   Yeah, not in terms of interface like it still doesn't have a keyboard still it's still touch or whatever

01:15:47   But you know and it doesn't seem like a big deal like oh so what I run my iOS apps faster

01:15:52   And maybe like a game will look nicer or something like that. But it's like it's one of those things where

01:15:57   when we have all the steps in between

01:16:01   It doesn't seem so impressive like it's not as impressive as you know

01:16:04   iPhone 3gs to iPhone 4 where they go ready like wow, they just doubled everything. It's amazing, right?

01:16:09   But through a series of small steps

01:16:12   There's gonna come a point where new classes of applications are possible on an iPad merely because they've been pressing it forward

01:16:19   And there was a little stall there

01:16:21   I think a lot of it did with like just having one gigabyte of RAM for a long time

01:16:23   But now and and having two cores for how long we had two cores

01:16:26   Like everyone else has gone quad core and like the Android space and everything like that

01:16:29   So now they're pressing again two gigs of RAM three cores

01:16:33   I don't think it makes new categories of stuff available to you, but maybe a generation or two from now

01:16:38   We're gonna wake up and say there are things that the iPad can do that the iPhone can't quite dream of doing yet

01:16:45   I mean right now it's like you just need an extra power to run this bigger screen and the iPhone

01:16:49   You know is reasonable but like I think you had just have so much more headroom in the bigger form factor so far

01:16:55   They haven't really been willing to do with that much. This is the first year

01:16:57   I feel like they're pulling away by giving it double the RAM and everything

01:17:01   But you know there is room. I think there is room for for more sophisticated applications

01:17:07   To be on a an even larger and even more powerful iPad. We're just like right now

01:17:12   It's kind of like we're inching towards that it just seems like man a faster bigger iPad well

01:17:17   I think the two demos they chose art were really good

01:17:20   I think they were such great demos the pixel pixel mature and replay

01:17:24   Did you see the Schiller mispronounced it?

01:17:27   It's been listening to YouTube much.

01:17:29   Yeah. So Schiller called it Pixelmator. But those are good demos because in theory,

01:17:37   if they've already got the iOS app working for the iPad, they could come out with,

01:17:42   maybe they will even. Maybe when Pixelmator for iOS ships, it will be universal and it'll run on

01:17:48   your iPhone too. But clearly editing photos is better. The bigger the screen, the better.

01:17:55   and on a phone screen you're seriously constrained you know and for like the exact thing that they

01:18:00   did where they're making like an advertisement for you know this big image and they want to

01:18:05   superimpose text and um you know having a laptop size screen like the full size ipad

01:18:12   even though that might be small for a laptop it's still certainly you know nobody you know

01:18:18   know, the small iPad, the mini is vaguely giant size phone size, right? It would be

01:18:25   the biggest phone ever, but it's, you know, you could imagine somebody making an

01:18:29   Android phone that's the size of an iPad mini, but not an iPad. And for photo

01:18:34   editing, it's, you know, size matters. And then I think with those replay guys, I

01:18:37   thought that was an interesting, "Boy, you could never do that on a PC" demo, because

01:18:46   to me the big part of that is that you've already got you it's the device you use to

01:18:51   ship shoot the clips it's all one thing it's the camera it's the editing system it's the

01:18:56   playback system right and you don't have that with a laptop like where you might shoot a

01:19:02   bunch of video on your phone and then you can connect your phone with the lightning

01:19:07   adapter to your macbook and suck all the video over and open and then you might airplay it

01:19:12   onto your tv so people can see it or put it back on your phone because it unless people

01:19:16   gathered around your screen.

01:19:17   Yeah.

01:19:18   I mean, it's certainly a that's beyond the technical acumen of a lot of typical people

01:19:23   and B it's not something you want to do when you're on vacation, like in the demo that

01:19:27   they, because it gives you that year.

01:19:29   It's like, it's the type of thing where when you're on vacation, you tell yourself that

01:19:31   when you get back home, boy, you're going to spend a day and take all of your stuff

01:19:34   and put it onto your computer and make a nice video and send it out to people.

01:19:37   But you won't because you get back from vacation and you're rushing around and you're back

01:19:40   to your regular life.

01:19:41   And there's when you're on vacation, you got the iPad with you.

01:19:44   You can do it when you go back to your hotel room or whatever.

01:19:46   Or while you're waiting for your table at dinner

01:19:48   and just suck these clips in and push a button

01:19:51   and have a finished video pop out that you could post--

01:19:55   Share right there and then say, hey, guys,

01:19:57   this is what we're doing on our vacation.

01:19:59   And the other thing that's lurking for the iPad, which

01:20:01   we still haven't seen but people have poked around,

01:20:03   like the whole split screen multitasking, which we know

01:20:05   is lurking the code for splitting multiple apps

01:20:08   into thirds and quarters.

01:20:09   It's there, and obviously it's not baked yet

01:20:11   and they're not ready for it.

01:20:12   And maybe you need a bigger iPad or whatever.

01:20:13   but that's what I'm talking about of like pressing

01:20:17   the limits of what can be done on a touch device.

01:20:19   - I can't help but think that going to two gigs of RAM

01:20:22   is a sign that if there's an iPad Pro

01:20:26   in like five months from now,

01:20:28   'cause that's the rumor is maybe like February or March,

01:20:32   they're gonna have an iPad Pro,

01:20:34   12 or 13 inches or something like that,

01:20:38   and it'll have split screen.

01:20:39   My guess is that this iPad, if that's true,

01:20:42   this iPad Air 2 will get the split screen too,

01:20:45   but no other iPad will because--

01:20:47   - Yeah, 'cause there's just not enough room

01:20:48   on the smaller one.

01:20:49   - Yeah, I think it's not like they've promised it,

01:20:51   but in fact, I guess they still sell the,

01:20:54   I think the original mini, which they're selling for 249

01:20:57   is only 512 megs of RAM.

01:21:01   And you guys talked about ATP,

01:21:03   but the frustration with the growing range

01:21:07   from bottom high end to low end

01:21:09   is that developers don't have the ability to say,

01:21:12   this app only runs on the iPad Air 2

01:21:15   because it's so graphically intense.

01:21:16   You can't do that.

01:21:17   Your iPad app has to run on at least launch on all iPads.

01:21:22   - Yeah, but that's something Apple has the flexibility

01:21:24   to change at any time though.

01:21:25   It's just an app store rule.

01:21:26   They can change the rule at any time.

01:21:28   They can give you a little API and a point update

01:21:30   to definitively say, you know,

01:21:31   because they keep bragging about, as Marco pointed out,

01:21:34   that big chart that shows the GPU speed

01:21:38   that goes up like a big hockey stick.

01:21:39   Look how far we've come.

01:21:40   the eight X's its GPU is so incredibly powerful. And yet

01:21:44   they're still shipping the second dot on the graph, the

01:21:46   second lowest one, right? And it's like, well, it doesn't help

01:21:48   me because if I got to make a game that runs in that second

01:21:50   dot, I don't it's actually frustrating to me. The eight X

01:21:54   is out there because now I got to make a game that like scales

01:21:57   from all the way out at the I can't believe we used to live

01:22:00   like animals like that end of the hockey stick curve. Like

01:22:03   what? What does remove texture mapping in that version? It'll

01:22:05   just be flat shading.

01:22:06   But I do think that there's a general you know, the gist of it

01:22:10   is if you're an iPad app or a modern iPhone app,

01:22:13   you can more or less assume that you have access

01:22:16   to about a gig of memory if you need it.

01:22:18   So I feel like this, I feel like the iPad Air 2 getting two

01:22:22   is a sign that if there's split screen,

01:22:26   that it'll get it and I don't think the other ones will.

01:22:29   - Yeah, and it's just time for two gigs.

01:22:32   Like it's kind of sad that the iPhone doesn't have it,

01:22:34   but at the very least, you can make some kind

01:22:35   of battery life excuse for the phone, right?

01:22:38   - Yeah, definitely.

01:22:39   I mean maybe like it's like it's borderline they made it a half a millimeter thicker and they gave it two gigs of RAM

01:22:46   It would be a different device, but you'd have more. Yeah, and there's a there's a Quora post

01:22:51   I haven't linked to it from daring fireball because I feel like it's a little I

01:22:54   Don't I can't verify it myself and it seems a little bit too rah rah Apple even when they

01:23:01   Even when they don't even when they don't put enough RAM in the phone

01:23:05   It's it's all good, but the expert if somebody asked on Quora

01:23:08   Why why did the new iPhone 6 only still only have one gigabyte of RAM?

01:23:12   when a lot of the top top shelf competitors on Android have to

01:23:16   and like the top-ranked answer was somebody saying that it's

01:23:20   there's probably a whole bunch of other reasons too, but a big one is that a garbage collected system like

01:23:28   Java needs double the RAM of a non garbage collected system like iOS and that they've linked to like an academic

01:23:35   paper that showed how

01:23:37   You know if you can give a garbage collected system enough RAM

01:23:42   it all just works out but when a garbage collected system gets RAM constrained it goes to hell and

01:23:48   Everything gets gummed up waiting for memory

01:23:54   And I think there's something to that. I do think that you know that iOS because it's not garbage collected can get by on one gig

01:24:01   longer than it will then like Android could have but I

01:24:04   Still yeah, it's it's still irritating every time I go back to Safari and my tabs have all been flushed

01:24:10   Yeah, and that's that kind of that's the real luxury of buying the top-end iPad air - is gonna get you it's like oh

01:24:18   Thank God and go back to Safari a Safari is still running itself and be the tabs that are in Safari

01:24:23   I I just had I noticed with my review unit my first right before about an hour before the show. I was flipping through your your

01:24:30   Yosemite review and

01:24:33   It had finally gotten flushed from memory, but I hadn't been in Safari for a while

01:24:37   I had been doing a lot of other stuff

01:24:39   But yeah those big giant reading images that are in that review can yeah can do that to you

01:24:44   Yeah, that that was the first one that had gotten flushed and it was definitely noticeable

01:24:48   I think it's super interesting too that they've gone

01:24:51   They've so out now

01:24:53   I don't wanna say outclass

01:24:55   But it's it's so noticeably faster than the iPhone 6 in any kind of benchmark because it has you know

01:25:00   It's it's a faster faster at single core and it has a third core

01:25:04   Yep, and the GPU is more powerful because it has to push more pixels and I think it may I haven't looked at the specs

01:25:10   Closely enough, but I think they may be like it

01:25:13   PowerPoint where it's not just like the same speed is the iPhone 6's GPU, but it just has to push more pixels

01:25:19   It's like it can push the more pixels and then some yeah

01:25:22   And I got to talk to I just happened to be my seat in the event last week was right behind

01:25:29   The was like front towards the front like fifth row on the left and the demo guys were all in front of me like right

01:25:35   in front of me where the the replay guys and

01:25:37   Two rows in front of me where the pixel mater guys

01:25:41   And I know the pixel made up guys because they've sponsored I think they've sponsored the show

01:25:44   But I know they sponsored during fireball many times and I've emailed them, you know ever since the 1.0 came out

01:25:50   It was like wow somebody actually used you know

01:25:52   Core image and all these other cool Apple technologies to do the thing

01:25:56   We've been talking about for 15 years and have an indie rival to Photoshop

01:26:00   So I've known him by email, you know since forever first time we ever met in person

01:26:04   I've was awesome to be able to congratulate them in person because what do you know what a moment?

01:26:09   You know you get to be on stage at an Apple event and demo your app

01:26:13   And it ends up I know the replay guys a little bit, too

01:26:17   I didn't recognize their names when they first got called up, but they've sent me

01:26:20   You know just eat. You know as the guy writes during fireball. They've sent me emails on various things over the years

01:26:25   And you know we were right there in town hall

01:26:28   We had a couple minutes before they were gonna kick us out, and then you know they're not gonna

01:26:31   Give me any kind of state secrets about what what life was like the last couple of weeks while they were working on this

01:26:37   But they you know they could speak a little bit and both of them like the replay guy said that he thinks if anything

01:26:43   Apple has completely under sold the graphics performance of the a8x that that when they you know from what they were doing

01:26:52   The last couple weeks getting the demo together for replay that it was way faster than what Apple is saying

01:26:57   compared to like the iPhone 6

01:27:00   That's the thing about the power in these like they're putting so much power into his iPad and building up to the next

01:27:06   Sort of the next sort of big leap like that we're gonna have to we're gonna be able to get a different class of applications

01:27:12   but especially for graphics performance the the different class of application that you can get is a

01:27:18   Extremely graphically sophisticated game and you're never gonna really have one of those on the iPad air, too

01:27:26   Because it's the same reason like when you know when like watchdogs or you know

01:27:32   What like you know shadow of Mordor I guess is bad example because cross-platform

01:27:36   But any like modern console game that's on the current generation consoles

01:27:40   There's no Wii port of those because the Wii is standard definition and incredibly weak and there is no way to scale a modern

01:27:47   PlayStation 4 game that all the way down to

01:27:50   Something that's that darn old like there's not you can't well

01:27:53   We'll just use fewer vertexes and lower resolution textures in the game will run fine. It's just not possible, right?

01:27:58   You cannot take a game and scale that so any game that takes full advantage of the 8x

01:28:03   I don't know if you can make a version of that game that also runs on the two hundred and forty nine dollar iPad mini with

01:28:09   an a5 and five I'd like there's nothing you can do to the game to make it run on that and so

01:28:13   Like you're kind of stuck you can never make you can never make an app

01:28:17   They can really take advantage of that GPU because really have to think either games or like

01:28:21   Scientific imaging are the only two things that you could do really use the GPU like that

01:28:26   So it's kind of it's kind of a shame that that you know

01:28:28   I mean

01:28:28   I guess you can do core image effects really really fast and the you know

01:28:33   The a5 can do core image effects the same ones just much slower

01:28:36   And that's how you can get away with doing something like pixelmator on both platforms, but games

01:28:40   I feel like people are stuck there that that and also if you those type of games that

01:28:45   Graphical sophistication cost so much money to make you have to sell a lot of them and I'm not sure

01:28:50   that the touch interface is

01:28:52   Sufficient to you know be it, you know to sell a game like a 500 million dollar game like destiny for the iPad

01:28:59   I I don't know if you could you could sell that with if people are gonna be swiping on this

01:29:02   This is great because now that I have a 10 year old son

01:29:05   I actually am familiar with just about every title that you've mentioned including destiny. Do you have did you end up getting a ps4?

01:29:12   No, you know we have you got the free Xbox Xbox

01:29:16   And it's I don't know what to do about it because I kind of feel like the PlayStation 4 looks like the better

01:29:20   The more time goes on looks like it's the better platform. Well, so do you have destiny? Yeah, we have it on the Xbox

01:29:27   Yeah, so there you go. Yeah, pretty good game. Have you played it? Uh, just just a toy around a little bit

01:29:34   I it's you know, I'm total like the old man learning to play games

01:29:38   But it's you know, it's really really graphically. You should you can Xbox you should check Xbox Live arcade

01:29:44   I think there was a version of crystal quest

01:29:46   Tell you kid about son. Let me tell you I was a kid

01:29:51   This is what we played. Although you can't play crystal quest at the friggin thumbstick. It doesn't know but anyway, you need a mouse

01:29:55   Do they really have it and yeah, I believe maybe not on the Xbox one

01:30:02   But way back when I'm either on the original Xbox or the 360

01:30:05   Cassidy and green I think it was the actual real company made part of crystal quest for Xbox

01:30:10   I do think I do think though that this is it games in particular. I do think that they're really pushing

01:30:17   Apple to open up the App Store to to hardware limit that the app somehow, you know if they already let you

01:30:25   limit it by OS I just can't see why it's getting to be untenable as they extend

01:30:33   the life of these you know these devices and that's the thing that the as Alan

01:30:39   Pike called it the zombie iMac that $249 retina not retina iPad mini the original

01:30:48   iPad mini which is from two years ago is really from four years ago because the

01:30:55   a5 system on a chip and the 512 megabytes of RAM and everything is

01:31:00   really it's the iPad to shrunken down like the I'll say it the iPhone 4s right

01:31:05   wasn't the same generation is that yeah it must have been around the forest a5

01:31:08   yeah no I know my iPod touch is the same thing 512 mics of RAM a5 processor so

01:31:13   So they've actually, it's just in a weird way, like they've actually, the lineup I think

01:31:19   only has a, it goes A5 at 249, but then there is no A6 iPad left.

01:31:28   They're already gone.

01:31:30   So it's like a year behind, an extra year behind the next step up.

01:31:37   It's a really old piece of technology.

01:31:39   Yeah, I don't know, like, and again, we keep saying this every time, you know, when Metal

01:31:46   came out and now the 8x, or it's like, and the Apple TV, playing video games on your

01:31:52   television through an Apple device is like just sitting there in front of Apple for years.

01:31:56   Like they've got every single freaking piece of the puzzle, they just don't have the desire

01:32:00   to do it, which is fine, like you can't be in every business, maybe they don't feel like

01:32:03   they want to enter that fray, but as they accumulate the pieces, especially with Metal,

01:32:08   the Apple TV and like building their own ARM chips with these crazy GPUs in them.

01:32:12   Like I don't necessarily recommend that they go for it because I don't think

01:32:16   they're really equipped to compete in that space but it's just so weird to see

01:32:18   them. It's kind of like when it was back at the e-book, the dawning of the e-book

01:32:23   era around 2001-2002 and I was like Apple's got these iPods and they've got

01:32:27   a way to sell things digitally online with the iTunes store and like they have

01:32:32   all the pieces to dominate the e-book space like they basically you know this

01:32:35   I think this maybe even before the Kindle came out it's like or maybe

01:32:37   around the same time, but the Kindle was e-ink, it wasn't quite the same thing. It's like,

01:32:40   why is Apple not, you know, the e-book market is there for the taking for Apple. They have

01:32:44   all the pieces, they have the momentum, they could do it, they're just not interested.

01:32:49   And eventually they're kind of like, yeah, I guess we'll do e-books too. By then it was

01:32:51   too late, Amazon was the dominant player and iBooks also ran. And the gaming space obviously

01:32:56   has been heavily populated for years and years, but here's Apple just dutifully working to

01:33:00   essentially build the ingredients of a world-class gaming console platform and then just not

01:33:06   doing that. Yeah, it's it like you said it's laying right in front of them

01:33:09   because the A8X I think the A8 is probably pretty good and you could make

01:33:14   it reasonable gaming console out of it especially with metal which you know

01:33:23   again talking to you know developers you know it did Apple calling it ten times

01:33:27   faster than OpenGL seems fair it seems like in you know real world. That's a BS

01:33:33   - Well. - Because it's 10X

01:33:35   and like, you know, if you do something stupid

01:33:37   and you were just measuring draw calls,

01:33:38   it's a micro benchmark.

01:33:40   But like, but the thing is that type of low level API,

01:33:43   every game console has something like that on it.

01:33:44   Like Apple has its own something like that.

01:33:46   - But that's the advantage Apple, modern Apple today has

01:33:51   is that they have enough developer support

01:33:53   and so many customers that they can get developers

01:33:55   to use their thing.

01:33:58   - To port, like to port all their game engines,

01:33:59   you know, the Unity and Unreal 4 engine and everything like,

01:34:02   will make a port solely for, you know, so they can sell iOS games, right?

01:34:05   Because that's a big market, they make a lot of money off that.

01:34:07   So all those engines are saying, "Yeah, hell yeah, we'll make a port of our engine to Metal,

01:34:11   and then everybody who builds games on our engine will be able to take advantage of it."

01:34:14   And like, to build a full-fledged console,

01:34:17   you'd have to do something like wimpy like the, not wimpy, but like lower-powered like the PlayStation TV or something,

01:34:22   because the A8X is not going to compete in power with the PlayStation 4.

01:34:26   But there's no reason that Apple couldn't build a device that competes with the PlayStation 4.

01:34:31   It would not be just an A8X in a box, but like, by making the A8X and Metal and having a store

01:34:37   and talking to game developers and getting the engines ported to their technology shows that if they wanted to,

01:34:43   they could make a product like this that is of similar power to the PlayStation 4,

01:34:46   or whatever the next generation is, and decide to compete in that space.

01:34:49   I don't—they just don't want to, which is fine.

01:34:51   Like, it's all about what do you say yes to, what do you say no to.

01:34:53   like that recent Tim Cook interview where he keeps saying like, "There's plenty of things

01:34:57   we could do. We have plenty of great ideas, and we don't not do them because we're not

01:35:01   capable of them. They just choose what they want to do, and thus far they have not made

01:35:05   this choice." Just like for all those years they chose not to enter the e-book market.

01:35:08   So...

01:35:09   Well, or even honestly, even chose not to enter the phone market. I mean, people were

01:35:13   clamoring for an Apple phone ever since cell phones became consumer-priced items.

01:35:19   items.

01:35:20   Yeah, well that's because they hadn't figured out what they wanted to do for a phone yet.

01:35:24   They had all those different competing internal projects and everything.

01:35:26   Whereas the game console, the reason you don't do it is like, "Well, we're just going to

01:35:29   make another game console like everybody else."

01:35:31   Like they don't want to enter the space until they feel like they have something significant

01:35:34   to add.

01:35:35   And with the iPhone, they didn't enter the phone space.

01:35:36   Like they did the Motorola Rocker and all that silliness, but they didn't field their

01:35:39   own phone that was just like a candy bar phone.

01:35:41   They didn't enter the space until they had something.

01:35:44   Even though their candy bar phone would have been the best candy bar phone, they just didn't

01:35:47   do it.

01:35:48   Right.

01:35:49   them because that would have made introducing the iPhone harder because then you got to

01:35:52   transition people. What about my old Apple phone I liked it? What is this new thing,

01:35:56   blah, blah, blah, whereas if the iPhone is your first phone, no problem.

01:35:59   And lastly, the performance thing. And again, I don't often go to benchmarks when I write

01:36:05   reviews but I really just think it's so fascinating how quickly the high-end iPad is gaining on

01:36:12   the low-end MacBook Airs. And again, it's not apples to apples because OS X and iOS

01:36:19   so many different interface things and just rules about multitasking and how much stuff

01:36:23   can be going on in the background.

01:36:25   And how much RAM you can get like a MacBook Air with like 16.

01:36:28   Exactly, which can have an enormous performance, especially not even benchmark, but just real

01:36:35   world advantages because when you're switching between these things, they're all still in

01:36:41   memory.

01:36:42   And I would have to think the SSD storage in the Air is also fast.

01:36:45   I think this is the first generation of iOS products to use PCI Express for the the SSD connections

01:36:50   I had heard that as a vague thing. I haven't seen like an iFixit teardown

01:36:53   So that's the case but like but they've been doing that on MacBook Airs for a while

01:36:56   But but yeah, like I heard that I saw a thing on Twitter last night again not verified

01:37:00   It's I didn't it's not like somebody showed pictures of it. But yeah, somebody seemingly reliable said it's PCI Express

01:37:06   Which is you know, it's desktop, you know, and they say desktop class performance

01:37:12   They're they're actually they're not hyping it

01:37:14   They're they're being serious

01:37:16   And that's what it like that the gates that type of stuff the more boring stuff if you're not playing a game the thing that gates

01:37:21   Your performance on just using your iOS device is a matter of memory you have and how fast the storages because what do you think?

01:37:28   It's done when you're launching an app and quitting an app and launching this app, but like

01:37:31   It's not the CPU is mostly spending its time waiting for I/O during during those times when you're waiting well

01:37:36   yeah, which is exactly why I splurged and got the

01:37:41   SSD storage for the iMac I feel like my last spinning hard risk that I've ever bought, you know is in the past. I

01:37:48   Would like mine to be in the past, but they're not getting well

01:37:52   Other than external drives that I would use for like backup or something like that where I'm not going to be waiting on it as a

01:37:58   user

01:37:59   Even then like at work

01:38:01   My machine has SSDs for all the stuff that I use but my super duper clone is spinning and it's just so painful

01:38:06   like how long a super duper clone takes just

01:38:10   You know, it's just like read from the SSD and then just like go get a coffee. Oh you thought the spinning hard disk wrote?

01:38:16   Okay, I'll read one more thing from the SSD like you just see super do it. So it's so asymmetrical

01:38:19   So I would love to be all SSD, but unfortunately

01:38:23   I keep accumulating stuff and SSDs set up for the read hit the reset button

01:38:27   Unlike storage used to be scaling with my with my digital hoarding and then SSDs were like up

01:38:33   No, actually set you back shrunk everything way back. That's just now barely catching up again with one terabyte SSD, right?

01:38:38   All right, let me take a third break here and thank our last sponsor, another longtime

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01:41:52   So let's talk Yosemite for the rest of the show.

01:41:55   Sure, 140 in, let's start.

01:41:59   My son calls it "Yozomite."

01:42:01   Yep.

01:42:02   A lot of nicknames.

01:42:04   "Yozomite," I think he says.

01:42:07   This is exactly as funny.

01:42:08   I didn't think about kids, but that was exactly like what people said coming out of WWDC's

01:42:12   keynote is, "People don't know how to spell Yosemite.

01:42:15   People don't know what Yosemite is."

01:42:16   And then when my son started talking about "Yozomite," I was like, "Huh.

01:42:21   Well, it doesn't really matter."

01:42:25   free. It's not like they need to sell it to people.

01:42:27   I think the visual thing, if it is anything that maybe I thought you underplayed was talking

01:42:33   about the visual redesign. Because I know you care, but it's also a hard thing to talk

01:42:40   about.

01:42:41   You think I underplayed it? I spent a lot of words on that. That's like the longest

01:42:45   section in the review.

01:42:46   It could have been longer, in my opinion. Because you know what? I guess the other thing

01:42:53   to is that you know that they're not, we're going to have something, they're going to

01:42:59   improve it and next year's will look a little better and it'll look a little better. But

01:43:02   I think this is basically what we're looking at for the next, at least probably a decade

01:43:09   on the Mac.

01:43:11   Yeah, probably. I forget what I put in my review and what I cut, but one of the things

01:43:17   I mentioned in the most recent ATP is like, there's this thing that Apple does when they

01:43:22   they have a new fancy design that they like.

01:43:26   They did it with iOS 7, they did it with the original Aqua

01:43:29   and 10, they did it with the various looks in between

01:43:32   like brush metal.

01:43:33   They tend to err on the side of going too far with a look.

01:43:38   And then they back it off later in response to complaints.

01:43:41   And so like iOS 7 was the most recent memory

01:43:43   where they have a super thin fonts, right?

01:43:46   And everything was just maybe a little bit too precious

01:43:49   the parallax effect and the zoom in and everything and so you add the thing to reduce motion you thicken up the font a little

01:43:55   Bit and you make adjustments and that was mostly done before release with with aqua

01:43:59   original version of 10 10 was just crazy pinstripes everywhere super glossy and lickable all

01:44:05   Faded and soft lighting like everything was shot with Vaseline on the lens and they backed that off over years hardening up the edges

01:44:12   Towing down the pinstripes and then brushed metal came in and everything was freaking metal and the version of toning that down was getting rid

01:44:18   of it, but like going too far and then backing off is preferable to them it seems than not

01:44:23   going far enough, like being timid. So Yosemite is, and I kind of bemoan that in the review

01:44:29   or the part that I cut from the review that, I don't remember what's in there anymore,

01:44:33   is saying like, wouldn't it be nice if we could skip that part where they go too far

01:44:38   and just go right to the part where they tone it down a little bit and maybe they feel like

01:44:41   they don't know where they need to tone it down. Like remember the checkbox to make the

01:44:44   menu bar not translucent because the translucent menu bar, the original one in Leopard which

01:44:48   just crazy translucent and made everything unreadable.

01:44:50   - Yeah, totally unreadable.

01:44:51   - And now they feel like they have the confidence

01:44:53   that like, well, this menu bar won't be unreadable

01:44:55   'cause we have this crazy algorithm

01:44:56   that will like blur everything together

01:44:58   and is aware of contrast and it will just look muddy

01:45:00   and indistinct, but it won't be unreadable.

01:45:01   So no more checkbox to disable that.

01:45:03   And it's like, you know,

01:45:05   there are places where they went too far in this

01:45:09   and there are a bunch of adjustments that are already there,

01:45:11   but none of them sort of,

01:45:13   none of them tune it to be the way we hope it's gonna be

01:45:16   in the next two revisions.

01:45:17   Yeah, that's it. I a few hours before the show started. I linked to koi VIN's

01:45:21   Review of Yosemite, you know most focusing solely on the appearance. I know you hurt my feelings said it was your favorite

01:45:28   Well, I thought that yours doesn't even count. I mean yours is

01:45:32   Anyway, yeah. No, I read this thing when he originally posted but yeah, but I mean it's a similar sentiment

01:45:38   Yeah, it always 10 Balboa and OS 10 palisades are gonna look great. And I think that is totally true. I'm I'm

01:45:45   basically on board completely with the basic style,

01:45:50   but there's definitely some toning back

01:45:51   that I think needs to be done.

01:45:53   - Also my big complaint that I just complained about ATP

01:45:56   is like the transparency effect.

01:45:58   Like I spent a lot of time explaining

01:46:01   what the different kinds of transparency are,

01:46:02   how they work, and then here's how they're deployed

01:46:05   in the OS, right?

01:46:06   And all the stuff about the rearrangements

01:46:08   of the UI and stuff like that.

01:46:08   And then I had this whole section called philosophy,

01:46:10   which is I kind of tried to isolate the part

01:46:12   where I'm gonna like try to unpack this.

01:46:14   Like, here's what it is, here's what it's looked like,

01:46:16   here's where they use it, and then it's like, why?

01:46:18   Why is this there at all?

01:46:20   What is it about what's behind my menu bar

01:46:22   that adds to my life, right?

01:46:24   And you know, why do I need to see that?

01:46:26   Why do I need to see any of that, right?

01:46:29   What is, you know, like,

01:46:30   because there's always some kind of philosophy behind it.

01:46:32   Like the original Aqua, it was like,

01:46:35   transient elements were translucent.

01:46:37   So sheets just appear briefly and go away.

01:46:40   Dropdown menus appear briefly and go away.

01:46:42   Those are translucent, it's a temporary.

01:46:45   - And yeah, there's a logic to it.

01:46:48   - Right, but then on the other hand,

01:46:49   the dock which was always there was also translucent.

01:46:51   So it's just like, well, F-you,

01:46:52   translucency is cool, right?

01:46:54   And here, several times I've asked Apple about the effects

01:46:58   and during the different keynotes,

01:47:00   they've said, here's why we do it.

01:47:01   And they have reasons behind them.

01:47:02   And I have to look at those reasons and say,

01:47:05   is this a reason for you to pollute all of my sidebars

01:47:08   with the color of the desktop background?

01:47:12   Sometimes the justification can work out,

01:47:14   but other times I don't buy it.

01:47:15   Like the whole thing of making the temperature

01:47:19   and mood of your desktop background

01:47:20   influence the look of your OS.

01:47:22   Sounds like, I mean, it's a thing that happens.

01:47:24   It works.

01:47:25   Like if you have a super orange desktop background,

01:47:28   all of your behind the window blending translucent regions

01:47:32   are gonna have a tinge of orange in them.

01:47:34   Your menu bar is gonna be tinged orange.

01:47:35   All the menus you pulled down

01:47:37   are gonna be tinged orange, right?

01:47:39   But like, I don't, you know, that aspect of personalization,

01:47:44   like it maybe just flies in the face of tradition

01:47:48   or whatever, like if I have a desktop picture that I want,

01:47:50   I want my gleaming beautiful interface to be on top of it.

01:47:52   I don't want the desktop picture.

01:47:54   Like I may like it because it's a nice picture, I like it.

01:47:56   But what I don't like is its contribution

01:47:59   to the sidebar of my email client

01:48:01   that now looks like a muddy, rusty, tinged orange thing.

01:48:04   Whereas before it was crisp text on top of

01:48:07   a background color that the app designer had shown.

01:48:08   Yeah, it changes what it means to pick a desktop picture because before it was, "Okay, what

01:48:13   do I want to see when I've got nothing open? Like, I'm done." Like, let's say, like, as

01:48:16   you complete what you have to do today, you keep closing windows and you're closing tabs

01:48:21   and you can quit your email because I'm not going to check it again. And now I've got

01:48:25   nothing and I'm looking at my desktop and this is a picture that makes me happy. That's

01:48:30   all you had to do when you chose your desktop.

01:48:34   Now you've got to pick something that's going to make, like you said, like make the sidebar

01:48:37   and your email client look good when you don't even see the desktop and then this

01:48:41   is a point I have to have to put it in ATP terms I have to do some follow-up

01:48:45   because when guy was on last week I English and we talked about this we

01:48:48   clearly confused the hell out of a lot of people in because we were talking

01:48:53   about the way that if you have like a stack of white windows just like text

01:48:58   edit documents and then you have like mail in front of them and the sidebar of

01:49:03   of mail behind it is just a white window. It still takes a tint from the desktop. That's

01:49:09   what Guy and I were talking about. And that does in terms of not merely making any kind

01:49:13   of logical sense in the world of physics. We weren't, what everybody seemed to think

01:49:18   we said was that it doesn't take any cues from what's right behind it. So if you...

01:49:22   It's mostly what's behind it with a touch of the desktop.

01:49:26   It's mostly what's behind it, directly in the window behind it. So if you have like

01:49:29   a real vibrant purple image, you know, grimace from McDonald's is in the window behind you,

01:49:38   and your mail is in front of it, you're going to have a purple sidebar.

01:49:41   But I end up a lot of times with a lot of white windows, you know, I have editing documents and

01:49:47   stuff like that, or a mail client or eye chatters.

01:49:50   Yeah, but God forbid you have like a safari window with like a dark black blob and then

01:49:55   some white stuff, then the black blob starts showing.

01:49:58   - Right, and if it's not like an entirely black window

01:50:01   where it just makes the whole thing look gray,

01:50:02   if it's just right in the middle,

01:50:04   looks like there's a smudge.

01:50:06   I see it in the messages app every day

01:50:08   when I have transparency on,

01:50:10   because there's, my blue messages are always on the side,

01:50:15   and so up at the top right, there's this blue blur

01:50:18   about it ranging from like an inch or two

01:50:21   that doesn't extend across the whole bar,

01:50:22   and it bothers the hell out of me.

01:50:25   Yeah, here's the analogy I used on ATP last night,

01:50:28   which I probably should have also put in the review,

01:50:30   but didn't.

01:50:32   So there's this whole section on extensions.

01:50:34   And I go through a little bit about the old days

01:50:37   of extensions where they would just invade the memory space

01:50:40   of either the OS or other applications.

01:50:42   And even into the OS 10 days of just like,

01:50:43   every app that launches loads a scripting edition,

01:50:46   which just like runs wild in its memory space

01:50:48   and does some crazy hack to enable window shade

01:50:50   or whatever it's gonna do, right?

01:50:52   And the idea that you would write a program as an application developer,

01:50:57   and then you would test it and debug it and make sure it works correctly,

01:51:01   and then hand it to somebody, and then someone else who you never met

01:51:04   would write a program that invades your program

01:51:06   and changes the way it works and causes a bug in your program,

01:51:08   and then you get a support ticket, or you're like,

01:51:10   "Hey, your text editor has a bug."

01:51:12   And it's like, "Well, no, I totally test that. It doesn't."

01:51:14   It's like, "Oh, well, I'm running this extension,

01:51:16   and this thing written by someone you never met invades your application

01:51:19   and changes the way it behaves, and now it's buggy.

01:51:21   You got to fix it. It's an untenable way to develop software because how can you it's like the halting problem

01:51:27   How can I know what's gonna happen when some program I've never seen before invades my program and changes the way it's behaved

01:51:32   It's impossible for me to write a quote-unquote correct bug-free program in this environment

01:51:36   The develop the designer equivalent of that is I'm gonna make an application

01:51:41   I'll make it look as good as I want

01:51:42   But I have no control over what windows are behind it or what color the person desktop background is

01:51:46   I just got a trust Apple to try to make this into something readable and then I get back to the you know

01:51:50   Why why is it? What is it about the sidebar like I could I can I can buy pull down menus

01:51:55   I can buy sheets I can buy

01:51:57   You know transient things that are floating in but the sidebar seems so a part of the content of the application

01:52:02   Like maybe if it was a slide-out drawer like the old style ones that I could say it was transient

01:52:07   And maybe it should be translucent, but there is nothing about sidebars that says to me

01:52:10   Please show me what's behind you right like they're filled with text like their source lists their text that has to be readable

01:52:17   I do not want to be distracted by the other stuff there and so I

01:52:20   I mean, I don't know, there's no option to turn that off except to turn it off everywhere.

01:52:24   And I pretty much at this point, I feel like I'm on board with the way they use translucency,

01:52:29   even with the stupid tinging and all the drop them, I use everywhere except for sidebars,

01:52:33   because it just seems like a bridge too far.

01:52:35   The other thing that I don't get, I don't get the other use of it. I don't get the in-window

01:52:38   transparency, you know, like in Safari, where all the Chrome at the top of the Safari window

01:52:42   picks up.

01:52:43   Yeah, there's a little bit more justification that of their own doing. As I said, I'm pretty

01:52:47   I'm pretty sure I said this in the review. Once they made scrollbars invisible, the only way you have any indication that there's stuff above or below is if you see something truncated or if you kind of see this dim, you know, wavy image of things that are above or below.

01:52:59   And that bothers me less because toolbars tend to have stronger boundaries, like the toolbar buttons themselves don't let stuff show through on them, so they're gonna be, you know, light, dark markings on light backgrounds, well-defined.

01:53:11   Well-defined there's nothing in the toolbar itself that I need to read that's going to become illegible and uh

01:53:17   Like just scrolling through the review

01:53:20   Like you can kind of see the reason they did this and it's one of the one of the justifications

01:53:23   The philosophy section is that this looks nice like that

01:53:26   It's fashion that it's aesthetics and if you scroll through my yosemite review and when I look at some of these screenshots

01:53:32   I think some of them are really pretty like

01:53:34   The the multiple docs with the different backgrounds or even when i'm trying to show

01:53:39   something that I think is a negative like the same Safari window where they just change tabs and it radically changes what the entire interface

01:53:44   Looks like because the pages are half scrolled up behind the scroll bar. That is a little bit crazy, but the image is beautiful

01:53:50   I think like this has the most interesting screenshots because of the all you know

01:53:54   I I purposely tried to show things in both the best and the worst light like get it to be most

01:53:59   Aesthetically pleasing but show what the extremes are. I

01:54:02   Think it is a really interesting thing to do and but I can only excuse it as

01:54:07   Long as it doesn't start impinging on usability when it doesn't pinch on usability

01:54:11   You better have a good reason other than in some scenarios looks really good. I know in your scenario

01:54:16   It's ugly and you can't turn it off, but in some scenarios. It looks good right and that that

01:54:20   Yeah, well and I just I guess I like the in window transparency a little bit more than the behind window transparency

01:54:29   Because there's a little bit more like you said with the scrolling and a sense of hey there's stuff up there

01:54:34   There's some kind of logic to it. Whereas the sidebar transparency. It just just seems mindless to me. So I think and I've been

01:54:41   as I've gone full-time Yosemite, I think I'm probably going to run with the

01:54:47   the reduced transparency option

01:54:51   And yeah, and that bothers me because that I think I mean it does as I pointed out in the review

01:54:56   It it does look okay like that like it still looks handsome

01:54:59   It shows that this is a sturdy design that does not rely on

01:55:02   Transparency parlor tricks to look nice because it looks it looks perfectly nice and it's solid especially on retina screens with sort of fine

01:55:08   Hair lines about things that contrast is still a little bit low

01:55:10   But otherwise it shows that there's there are you know, there are sturdy bones underneath this design

01:55:15   But it's a shame to give up all the transparency

01:55:17   Effects that I like just to save that one that I don't like and the other thing that bothers me about reduced transparency is those

01:55:23   Are in the accessibility preference paint, right?

01:55:24   And those things are there to help make the interface more usable for people who need that

01:55:30   But I feel like designers are not sweating as much over what things look like with that turned on both third-party and Apple designers

01:55:37   Like that it that it looks clunkier that it looks more like like and that's the way that Windows is like

01:55:41   Well, we'll just do this and I'm sure to look fine and you look at it and there's like details

01:55:45   All right, they're sweating over what it looks like in the default mode

01:55:47   I don't think people are sweating over how any application looks with reduced transparency on like right down to like the overlays for volume changing

01:55:53   With it where the little corners don't have transparency in some situations. Have you seen that? I don't think so

01:55:58   Let me see.

01:56:00   - I should have told you about that because--

01:56:01   - Yep.

01:56:02   - So now can you leave that option on?

01:56:04   Like it's totally counter to the super Apple nerd aesthetic.

01:56:07   Everything has to be beautiful and elegant.

01:56:08   Like stuff like that is around

01:56:10   if you know where to look for it.

01:56:11   - That's horrible.

01:56:12   - Because accessibility is not meant to be like,

01:56:15   it's first and foremost is supposed to make it more usable

01:56:17   at the expense of, you know, perfect aesthetic beauty.

01:56:21   So there is one of your expenses.

01:56:22   Maybe you'll think more about that option.

01:56:23   - Yeah, so when you change the volume and you get that,

01:56:26   what is that like a HUD?

01:56:27   What would you call it?

01:56:28   the temporary overlay, the rounded corners

01:56:31   are just filled in with black.

01:56:32   - 'Cause it's the transparent part of whatever that thing.

01:56:36   - I gotta call that, I bet that's a bug that they'll fix,

01:56:39   but it's a definite sign.

01:56:41   - But that type of thing,

01:56:42   like if you were to file that as a bug,

01:56:43   hey, when I enable this accessibility option,

01:56:45   this thing doesn't look as nice.

01:56:47   They're gonna be like, yeah, but it's, you know,

01:56:49   it's more, it's easier to see, right?

01:56:52   Stuff doesn't show through, right?

01:56:53   That's the point of the accessibility feature.

01:56:55   Feel free to file that bug,

01:56:56   see if they close it as behaves correctly.

01:56:58   - I will, I will.

01:56:59   I thought, and like you said,

01:57:01   I would love to be able to pick and choose

01:57:03   and just turn it off on the sidebars,

01:57:04   'cause I like the transparency on the menus.

01:57:06   I think it makes, it looks good,

01:57:09   and it makes sense to me that it's temper, you know,

01:57:11   it's just a little thing that,

01:57:14   while I choose this menu command,

01:57:15   it's floating over my thing,

01:57:17   and now that they're solid,

01:57:18   I just checked it right here in front of me.

01:57:20   It doesn't look as nice.

01:57:22   - The text rendering changes, especially on non-retina,

01:57:24   the text rendering changes when you go solid on the menus as well.

01:57:28   And the thing that bothers me about the menu is the tinge of the desktop.

01:57:32   I like the overlays, like the volume changer when transparency is on, the sort of iOS 7

01:57:36   overlay when you pull up control center from the bottom.

01:57:39   It doesn't pull any colors from your desktop background, it's just simply, I am white,

01:57:43   slightly translucent with that cool blur effect.

01:57:45   I wish the menus were like that, because all of my desktop pictures are making my pull

01:57:50   down menus uglier.

01:57:51   Like I'm gonna have to change them even though I love the pictures that are there

01:57:54   Just to pick one that has a different dominant color so that dominant color I can you know

01:57:59   Stomach the side of in all of my pull down menus. Did you turn on?

01:58:02   increase contrast

01:58:05   To play I haven't used it like that. I have to obviously I turned it on for screen. I feel like that one

01:58:09   I know what you're saying that it looks like system six

01:58:12   But it looks like system six made by someone with not a lot of attention to detail as things collide with each other and there's

01:58:17   No spaces between things, because they just sort of draw with a magic marker over the edges and don't read they don't change the metrics

01:58:23   So it's like crowded. There's a whole bunch of things that I think look better

01:58:26   And a whole bunch of things that clearly look worse just in terms of whether it's pleasing to me

01:58:32   And I realize like you said this is it is

01:58:34   Under accessibility for a reason I can actually see clearly how it is an accessibility feature for some people

01:58:40   But I actually like some of the the details of it, but there's others that you know

01:58:45   I can't I don't know why I could rock it full time

01:58:47   It's and and the low contrast that like it's basically the default where everything is super low contrast doesn't it remind you speaking of ie5

01:58:54   Like the days when we were all using bitmap fonts and everything was like well

01:58:57   You're still doing it like a light gray text on a dark gray background

01:59:00   And you know in in ten point for Dana pixel fonts and every like everything was super low

01:59:06   And you could just make it so precious and beautiful

01:59:08   But then when you when you move back from the screen it just faded into a uniform gray haze

01:59:12   And you don't notice it so much in Yosemite until you turn on

01:59:15   Increase contrast you're like whoa those hairlines now jump out at me

01:59:19   And now there's clear delineations and like the toolbar buttons don't fade into the toolbar as much as they used to like

01:59:23   It goes too far on the other direction, but you only notice the low contrast of Yosemite

01:59:28   When you turn on the high current and then turn it back off you're like whoa

01:59:32   No

01:59:32   I feel like I just my night vision went out and now everything's fading into one big blur again

01:59:36   One of the things that most surprised me about Yosemite when they unveiled it at WWDC was that

01:59:42   the general control I call it a control panel system press panel where you

01:59:47   control the basic appearance stuff you know graphite and blue highlight color

01:59:51   and stuff like that I I had my gut feeling was that they were gonna get rid

01:59:56   of all that just as you know go more like iOS like you don't get to pick a

02:00:00   highlight color in iOS you're gonna get blue and you're gonna like it or the app

02:00:04   is going to override it you don't get to pick whether you get blue or gray as a

02:00:08   is a highlight color.

02:00:10   You don't get to pick the color that get--

02:00:12   when you select text, what color is the highlight of the text?

02:00:15   That's the other thing about increased contrast.

02:00:16   It changes your highlight color too.

02:00:18   Yeah.

02:00:19   It's something that I seemingly can't quite figure out

02:00:22   what the rules are for.

02:00:24   I thought they were going to get rid of all that, because I

02:00:27   thought that was sort of-- that's

02:00:28   such an old school consumer feature.

02:00:33   You know, that you get,

02:00:40   like the way Windows used to let you pick everything.

02:00:42   You know, you could totally design,

02:00:44   you know, blue with white trim,

02:00:46   or you could make Windows look just truly god awful,

02:00:49   but they'd let you do it.

02:00:51   - But the thing they have in there,

02:00:52   the things they have in there are there

02:00:54   for reasons that haven't changed.

02:00:56   Like the whole reason Graphite is there

02:00:58   Because like they're essentially bowing to pressure from graphic designers who felt like the candy colors were throwing off their color sense and they

02:01:05   You know as I think I pointed out the review

02:01:07   Such a multi-year big fu to all those designers who were like you've got to get these candy colored aqua

02:01:14   We just out of our face. It's totally destroying my ability to you know because colors look different in the next to other colors

02:01:19   I need something that's neutral or whatever so Apple said fine. Here's graphite, and they gave they made everything a blue tinged gray

02:01:24   Which was it would just worse

02:01:26   I feel like we're throwing off color balance because if you if your mind believes that it's actually neutral gray

02:01:31   But it's not there's more blue in it. It's gonna screw you up way worse than primary colors red green and yellow

02:01:35   We're gonna but I know now the gray is more. I loved it though

02:01:38   It was almost as though they let me pick like a blue tinted gray. It was like right down my alley

02:01:43   Yeah, no

02:01:44   But like it doesn't it's not really what they asked for and somehow now with graphite is now now much more neutral gray

02:01:50   And it's totally boring. But if for people who want something with neutral, it's fine

02:01:53   but like no they went in the other direction like I said, okay, we've got blue and graphite and

02:01:57   Also, by the way, you can you can do this crazy dark mode that we sort of half-heartedly did to match our pro apps

02:02:03   like again, you know that I asked about that and they're like

02:02:05   They gave a bunch of different reasons for it

02:02:09   but like the one that has the most weight is like

02:02:11   Pro customers wanted this to match their pro applications that are also dark because they're like they're looking at video all day and they don't

02:02:16   Want the white menu bar and dock staring them in the face. So here's a dark mode

02:02:19   I but I thought as and you you must have stayed up to date with the betas over a summer

02:02:25   I thought that they actually called it a dark mode and it seemed like a hint like when they unveiled it on stage at

02:02:31   WWDC that it would be almost like everything Windows that all sorts of stuff was gonna go dark

02:02:38   Well, so there's a couple of reasons why they didn't do that like early on in the in the betas in the general control panel

02:02:46   Like the same control was there but instead of being a checkbox. It was a theme pop-up menu

02:02:51   So it was like I forgot what the words were like whatever word is next to the graphite aqua picker

02:02:55   And then there was another picker that it was a pop-up menu of like theme and it was like regular and dark

02:03:00   Right and that became a checkmark which is kind of demotes it from like oh, this is not theming. This is not OS theming

02:03:05   This is just a checkmark option that tweaks how certain things look and you can't go full dark

02:03:11   I think for the same reason even just making the menu bar dark was a problem because now you have all these

02:03:15   third party and you know Apple's own in the beginning menu bar icons that draw incorrectly

02:03:20   when when they you know because they drew draw black on top of black and you couldn't

02:03:25   see anything and Apple's own had to be updated and the third party ones had to be updated

02:03:29   multiply that problem by about a bazillion if you tried to change the entire interface

02:03:32   to dark how many applications draw with black and if you put them on a black background

02:03:35   everything's invisible so that was just not going to happen like the appearance manager

02:03:39   in those days you had ways to you know if everyone was using the appearance manager

02:03:45   You could make sure that your app looked good on any possible crazy kaleidoscope, right?

02:03:48   Because you didn't you if you embrace the appearance manager, you never pick you never said draw black text

02:03:52   You said you always drew with like a theme brush or whatever the right

02:03:55   Yeah, you would say give me the text color and now draw in text color and you didn't have to know what text color was

02:03:59   Whereas now you see a lot, you know

02:04:01   There's clearly a lot of apps that like yeah

02:04:04   I mean cocoa was like cocoa was not made with that in mind and you know

02:04:08   Certainly when jobs came back the theme stuff was canned even though the API's were still there

02:04:11   And so like, you know, as I talked about,

02:04:13   there was this brief period where it was explosion

02:04:15   of theming on the Mac community,

02:04:16   but like even though that tech was there

02:04:18   and people took advantage of it,

02:04:19   Jobs was against it, pretty much closed the door on that.

02:04:21   And now you have an ecosystem of applications

02:04:24   that are not prepared to be on a system

02:04:26   where the system look changes in radical way.

02:04:28   I mean, it's hard enough for Apple

02:04:29   when they change the look to make sure like,

02:04:31   you know, if you drew a custom control,

02:04:32   now it looks wrong and everything.

02:04:34   - And there's all sorts of other, I don't know,

02:04:36   it's even after, even though that they've cut it down

02:04:38   and it's just use dark menu bar and dock.

02:04:43   It's like the selection, the highlight color

02:04:45   for the menus in the dark mode, it's not right to me.

02:04:50   - Yeah, that's another vibrancy attempt

02:04:54   'cause it's got tinge with the desktop background,

02:04:57   but also like a sort of inverted type thing.

02:04:59   It's weird and sometimes it looks a little sickly sometimes.

02:05:03   It doesn't have the pizzazz of like,

02:05:08   Their big theme in the regular look is this very light gray,

02:05:12   lighter than normal, not a lot of gradient to it,

02:05:14   and this really powerful kind of like,

02:05:17   it's like if Pepto Bismol was blue instead of pink,

02:05:20   that's what the blue looks like, right?

02:05:21   It's like really like chalky, thick, opaque blue,

02:05:25   and that's your highlight color.

02:05:27   Whereas when you go dark mode,

02:05:28   it just kind of becomes this like pale moonlight

02:05:31   that's shining on your selected element.

02:05:32   It doesn't make as powerful a statement.

02:05:35   - Yeah, and it doesn't even invert the color of the text.

02:05:38   - So-- - I mean, and you're seeing that

02:05:40   because you're running in graphite mode,

02:05:42   that's what we're talking about here,

02:05:43   in case people are confused.

02:05:44   If you run in non, change your thing from non-graphite

02:05:46   and change the dark mode and then pull down a menu,

02:05:48   it looks much more, it looks much stronger in that mode.

02:05:50   - Yeah, it looks horrible in graphite mode.

02:05:53   It looks okay in blue mode.

02:05:55   But it still doesn't change the color of the text, though.

02:05:58   Like in regular mode, when you have,

02:06:00   like you hover your mouse over the new, you know, file new,

02:06:04   then new goes from being written in black

02:06:06   to being written in white,

02:06:08   because the blue is so vibrant.

02:06:09   But in the dark mode, they don't change to like,

02:06:13   they don't invert the text, it's just--

02:06:15   - Yeah, 'cause it's too close.

02:06:16   It's not clear that the background is so different

02:06:19   that you now you have to invert, like it's too, yeah.

02:06:21   And that's the whole thing with the vibrancy effect,

02:06:23   they kept showing that WWDC, like they would show that,

02:06:26   hey, if you draw text with like, again,

02:06:29   the text color and everything,

02:06:30   draw on a vibrant background,

02:06:32   we will adjust the color of the text

02:06:35   to make sure that every part of the text

02:06:36   has enough contrast to be readable.

02:06:39   And so the text color changes because like behind,

02:06:42   what you can see behind the vibrant background

02:06:44   is whatever the hell is behind it,

02:06:45   whether it's a window or the desktop background.

02:06:47   So you can't just pick one text color.

02:06:49   You have to sort of adjust the text color as you go along

02:06:52   in sync with the whatever is behind it

02:06:55   to make sure that this letter

02:06:56   on the right side of this sentence

02:06:58   is a totally different color than this level

02:06:59   on the left side because the thing

02:07:00   that's behind it is different.

02:07:02   And they're trying to finesse that.

02:07:03   And again, I have to ask why what's the point with Texas supposed to be readable?

02:07:08   Just put it on a background where you could wear the developer of the application

02:07:10   Controlled the foreground in the background color and we can all read the friggin text. I don't need to see what's behind it. Why I

02:07:16   Hear you I I'm surprised

02:07:21   I'm still a little surprised that they even have all these options that they didn't just say, you know

02:07:25   It's our way or the highway and you're gonna get well gonna get blue and you're gonna like it

02:07:29   Yeah, so it took us from 10.0 to 10.5 for them to just like brush metal is gone

02:07:35   Pinstripes are gone. There's one window style the buttons looking normal. Nothing is too transparent the menus

02:07:42   I mean

02:07:42   I remember they like the

02:07:43   Transparency of pull down menus was so extreme in the beginning and then by the end like by a leopard and snow leopard timeframe

02:07:50   It was practically opaque. It's like why even bother at that point? Like I can't see anything through this

02:07:54   It's almost entirely opaque white, right? So

02:07:57   You know it in ten point fifteen expect all this exuberance to have consolidated it into one

02:08:03   more conservative

02:08:06   Yet still recognizably Yosemite ish look

02:08:09   Yeah, and there's a couple things they get right. I think the new doc is great, and I call that out

02:08:15   Here's what you wrote in your review setting aside the particulars the Yosemite doc

02:08:19   exudes a visual confidence that has been sorely missed in the last few releases of OS 10 like I

02:08:26   To me the doc exemplifies what Yosemite is shooting for

02:08:30   Yeah, as I said an ATP it's the ideal scenario for you to show off vibrancy

02:08:35   Yeah

02:08:35   Because the icons are so like you're not gonna lose them no matter what crazy crap is going on with the background

02:08:41   Let me show the screenshot of like a look. It's look at how green it looks here

02:08:44   Look at how blue looks here the icons stand so proud of that interface. They're not gonna get lost

02:08:49   You're not trying to read a bunch of text

02:08:51   And you have full freedom on that background where otherwise no information would be conveyed to show off

02:08:56   Hey this cool effect that we've done this vibrancy thing where we blur and pull forward different colors and saturated. It looks beautiful

02:09:01   It's interesting

02:09:03   And it you know

02:09:05   It conveys this is kind of a piece of glass or translucent thing laying over stuff like that is the ideal environment for this for

02:09:11   this type of effect

02:09:12   Because it doesn't impair anything at all really and even like the parts where you hover and you get the text

02:09:17   Those they gave dedicated backgrounds that say okay. Well now it's time for you to read text. I'm not gonna mess around here

02:09:23   I'm going to give you what is almost you know a fairly opaque light colored background with dark

02:09:27   You know text on top of it or the reverse in dark mode to make sure you can read the text for the hovers and

02:09:32   Everything like that, but the dock itself will just be like we finally figured it out no more ridges

02:09:37   No more weird frills no down on an angle and shiny things on it. No reflections of the windows that are going above it like

02:09:44   Yeah, it's been a long road for the dog

02:09:46   I think the maverick stock is it's probably the best 3d doc because it kind of like that that you know

02:09:50   Not brush metal look was I mean something else in the parlance of the Mac

02:09:55   But like sort of a matte finish metal type of thing the 3d effects still just does not work and should never have been done

02:10:01   But that one at least has the most class, but I was like we're done with that phase

02:10:04   Here's what the doc looks like it looks the same vertical and horizontal. This is the doc

02:10:09   They even got rid of pinning which is kind of a shame, but that was never a documented feature anyway

02:10:13   What was pinning top and bottom?

02:10:15   Yeah, instead of having the dock centered on the edge of the screen people love to pin it to the top or the bottom

02:10:20   I

02:10:20   Suspect that maybe one thing that they reverse on if they get a lot of complaints about it because even though it was undocumented

02:10:24   The people who have been doing it have been doing it since like, you know

02:10:28   Whenever that whenever that undocumented feature was added whatever developer preview that's you could say it's undocumented

02:10:33   But once you've been doing it for you know, yeah, it was like a 10-15 years. It was like a defaults, right thing

02:10:39   Yeah, dude, just it didn't have to hack it. You just give it a preference

02:10:42   It was you know a preference that you just put in into terminal and and then I'm gonna take it

02:10:46   I remember that come calm that Apple doc pinning starter end or whatever. It was right. What's that app from the guy in Germany?

02:10:52   That's just it's just like a front end to all the hidden preferences. I like secrets which is from the guy who made quicksilver

02:10:58   Oh, right. Yes internet shared database of those type of things, but there's a million applications that will you know

02:11:03   Either show you what those commands are or run them for it. I

02:11:09   I think, and again, I shouldn't say it's underplayed,

02:11:13   'cause I think it's obvious,

02:11:15   but that this interface is so clearly designed retina first

02:11:20   and how it looks on non-retina max is,

02:11:25   we'll make the best of it,

02:11:27   but it's so clearly a retina first design.

02:11:30   And I guess, it should've been a sign,

02:11:35   like when we saw it at WWDC,

02:11:37   it should've been a sign that retina,

02:11:38   Like this would be the year we're gonna get retina IMAX

02:11:41   because I don't think it's a coincidence

02:11:43   that they're debuting at the same time as an interface

02:11:47   that so clearly is meant to be seen on a retina display.

02:11:52   - But even if we weren't getting a retina desktop max

02:11:55   this year, they still have to design it for retina.

02:11:57   Like you have to be forward-looking.

02:11:58   There's no sense in making a brand new look

02:12:00   for the Mac at this point in time.

02:12:02   Even if retina are working to be out for two years,

02:12:04   you just have to, you just have to say like,

02:12:06   you have to be forward-looking about this.

02:12:08   Which is why I hope to gob whatever new file system Apple must surely be working on is made entirely with SSDs in mind like

02:12:14   Screw spinning disks. I know they're still around

02:12:15   I know people are gonna use them for years, but if you're doing something now you have to be forward-looking. Yeah, I totally agree

02:12:20   Yeah, that's a good point that it would it would make sense

02:12:25   Maybe even make it so that it doesn't even run on non s non SSDs

02:12:29   And you know it still use a use HFS plus till the end of time on your spinning hard

02:12:33   Yes, don't spook them. I just wanted to really something I

02:12:37   I think that the choice of Helvetica, or as they say Helvetica Neue in particular, is

02:12:45   the clearest sign that it's meant to be seen on retina first.

02:12:47   Because as I look at Yosemite on a non-retina MacBook Air, it's the type that really annoys.

02:12:54   **Matt Stauffer:** Yeah.

02:12:55   People are upset that I didn't make more of that in my review.

02:12:58   And the reason I didn't make more of it is because I truly believe most people will not

02:13:01   even notice.

02:13:02   I know that is inconceivable to those of us who are like type nerds.

02:13:05   I'm not even that big of a type of word, but it bothers me because I have non-retina max

02:13:09   And it's just not like and you might you might have non-retina max for a while

02:13:12   Right, but but like but even I am not as bothered by it as you are in as many other people

02:13:18   But I truly think regular people will just absolutely not notice the texture even if you put it side by side

02:13:24   They wouldn't notice because people are just not sensitive to that

02:13:28   Maybe if you had changed from like brush script to like, you know, Cairo people would notice but

02:13:33   People just do not notice that you change from one sans-serif font to another right?

02:13:37   Well, I can notice I noticed that it's not really Helvetica Noya. It's it's a system font

02:13:43   I'm not I still haven't found where it lives. It must be somewhere in slash

02:13:46   Library it used to be available in the font menu in the early betas when they took it out of there

02:13:51   But yeah, it's hiding in there and it's it's the mutant one not for any reason that like makes

02:13:56   Sense from like well, we wanted to make a readable system, but it's because they had to make the metrics match

02:14:00   So it's kind of it's kind of perverted by the need right to match metric

02:14:04   So I think it's basically uglier than it needs to be so it's the same with or close as possible

02:14:09   Yeah, I think that's exactly it

02:14:12   It's well and it works a little better and it's a little bit of a concession or not even a little bit

02:14:17   I actually know that they spent an awful lot of time once they decide. Okay, we're gonna go to Helvetica and

02:14:21   We've still got all of these non retina max that we're gonna support for years to come and in some cases

02:14:28   They might even be selling for years to come right that that you know

02:14:31   Who knows when the Mac Pro is going to be able to support Apple branded retina displays?

02:14:37   MacBook Air rumors say is gonna go retina soon ish, but

02:14:42   It's you know, it's got a support non retina for a long time

02:14:47   they spent a lot of time tweaking the

02:14:51   metrics not just to make it match Lucida, but also to

02:14:55   Make sure that as you know that it fill at the sizes that it's used as a system font

02:15:01   That it hits the pixel boundaries as often as possible

02:15:04   Yeah

02:15:05   Because otherwise you get ll and hello becomes just one big indistinct blurred looks like a really thick capital I or something right again

02:15:11   My favorite example, so there's a lot of a lot of apps

02:15:13   It's a standard menu and cocoa the format menu in the menu bar if you look at least on a retina display

02:15:20   I don't know. I don't have a Yosemite non retina

02:15:23   But on the retina display at least the R and the M there's clearly some space between them

02:15:29   Whereas if you just open a text edit document set the font to a whole vedica noia

02:15:32   it's like 16 or 18 or whatever it is and

02:15:35   Type the word format the R and the M are gonna touch and it's gonna look you know

02:15:40   It unless you know, you know, it's just one of those you just have to know the word

02:15:44   You can't tell which ones the M and with you know, it just all looks like a bunch of humps next to each other

02:15:50   It's not a ligature you don't think it's not just the kerning right?

02:15:53   It's that the default kerning for Helvetica Neue is tight enough that the word format at that size

02:15:58   Is yeah the R and the M are gonna blur together

02:16:01   Which is one of those things that people who don't like Helvetica don't like about it

02:16:04   What else like the word window even is sort of it

02:16:09   Kearns differently if you use real Helvetica Neue

02:16:12   And you know the way that the W that the slantiness of the W

02:16:16   you know, has space next to it with the I, that the dot I isn't going to get lost in

02:16:21   the W. It's very thoughtful.

02:16:24   It makes me wonder why they don't use that.

02:16:27   I guess it's because of the metrics.

02:16:28   Why, like on iOS, they just use Helvetica Neue.

02:16:31   There's no special version of it for the system fund, to my knowledge.

02:16:35   Yeah, and the iOS line has, again, with the exception of the zombie iPad Mini, the iOS

02:16:41   line has been in retina longer.

02:16:43   It's more of a comfortable type of thing.

02:16:45   And again, forward looking, like we're gonna make these devices, they're all gonna be redness

02:16:50   soon enough because the screens are small enough, we know we can do it, design an interface,

02:16:54   especially iOS 7, like design an interface that's aimed at a world where all the devices

02:16:59   are red, because they're gonna be that way really soon.

02:17:02   Yeah.

02:17:03   One of your, we'll finish with a little bit of Swift, and then we'll call it a show, because

02:17:10   it's been a long time.

02:17:11   But from your review, from my notes here on page 16, you wrote, "Among a certain set

02:17:16   of Mac enthusiasts, it was a point of pride to have many rows of icons filling the startup

02:17:22   screen."

02:17:23   Now, that's a reference to the classic Mac OS, where, you know, like when you...

02:17:26   This is the whole section where you're talking about old-style extensions that just ran in

02:17:30   the memory space of every app, or in the system space, you know, just system-wide.

02:17:35   It was all the same.

02:17:36   There was no system memory.

02:17:37   Right.

02:17:38   There was just one pull of memory.

02:17:39   giant memory region carved up into pieces where you're supposed to stay in your little section.

02:17:43   Right, and it made me laugh because I remember thinking about that, that like when I first

02:17:46   started becoming a Mac nerd, it was absolutely a point of pride to have as many of those as

02:17:51   possible. But there was like a... If you kept going and became more informed and a little bit

02:17:57   more mature, it started becoming at the highest levels, it became more of a point of pride to have

02:18:02   as few of those things as possible. Well, the pride in having a lot of them wasn't so much

02:18:07   that your machine was so tricked out, but that you had figured out the correct load order and

02:18:11   incompatibilities that you could actually run this many and they all worked. Because it was always

02:18:15   like, "Oh, you got to load this first and this has to be there and these two are totally incompatible

02:18:19   because if you enable this one, you have to disable these two. But this one you can still

02:18:22   keep as long as you move it after that, like it's what Conflict Catcher was made for." Like,

02:18:25   that not only that you had all this software installed, but that you had figured out how to

02:18:29   make it into a stable system. And then, yeah, eventually you get sick of spending your time

02:18:33   playing with Conflict Catcher and you're like, "Do I really need Adobe Type Manager? Do I really

02:18:37   really needed how many fonts do I actually have and like you know something's got to go and Adobe's

02:18:41   ad manager is big so ATM goes out the door but you know see I always had to run atm as I was doing

02:18:47   I was doing design work but ATM was a good example where what was the character we had everybody I

02:18:52   mean it shipped from Adobe with like I think the tilde character in front like the extension was

02:18:58   tilt tilde ATM because on the old Mac OS tilde sorted alpha alphabetically first because it had

02:19:05   had to load first or was it last?

02:19:07   - Pretty much, yeah, I don't remember it.

02:19:09   But yeah, but that was the, you know,

02:19:11   that and putting funny characters in front of things

02:19:13   in your Apple menu folder,

02:19:15   Apple menu items folder to make space

02:19:17   and stuff like that. - Right, to make them

02:19:18   sort of a different order.

02:19:19   - Yeah, but that was a very different world.

02:19:21   And like, but that, if you live through that,

02:19:24   you understand like, the whole thing with extensions is,

02:19:29   for iOS it makes sense.

02:19:32   Like iOS is so buttoned down the whole time, right?

02:19:34   And we're all like, we want ways to extend the system,

02:19:37   like keyboards or like having share panels

02:19:40   include our stuff in it, all these things,

02:19:42   it's like, come on, we need a way to do this.

02:19:43   So it made a way to do it for iOS, right?

02:19:45   But on the Mac, even in an OS X,

02:19:48   we didn't have these memory patching extensions,

02:19:50   but we had all sorts of,

02:19:51   people had found ways to do things, symbol extensions,

02:19:53   or the mock inject to get your code in there.

02:19:55   Like, it's not like the Mac needed extensions.

02:19:57   OS X has extensions.

02:19:59   And the reason that Apple said,

02:20:01   we're gonna make this extension system for iOS,

02:20:02   it's gonna be safe and sandbox and all the things

02:20:05   that we're doing.

02:20:06   We're also gonna do it for the Mac,

02:20:08   because this is part of the unification of the platform.

02:20:10   Why should we not have this in Mac?

02:20:12   And the excuse can't be,

02:20:14   well, the Mac's already got ways to extend it.

02:20:16   Yeah, it's a crappier way and it's kind of dangerous,

02:20:18   but we don't need to bother with that.

02:20:20   Not many people buy Macs anyway.

02:20:21   The new Apple is, if we have an awesome way

02:20:24   to make extensions, we're gonna deploy it everywhere.

02:20:26   The Mac's gonna get it, the iOS is gonna get it.

02:20:28   If there's a way to do it on the watch,

02:20:30   that's gonna get it too.

02:20:31   And that's a different philosophy.

02:20:33   And if you live through the bad old days

02:20:34   of these little rows of icons,

02:20:36   you understand deep in your bones what is wrong

02:20:39   with letting other people's software enter your memory space

02:20:41   and screw with your applications.

02:20:43   And so any type of extension missing

02:20:45   is that avoids all those evils.

02:20:47   Yes, please bring it to the Mac.

02:20:49   Not because we can't get extensions now.

02:20:51   We have all these weird extensions

02:20:52   that can do weird things to your Mac, even in OS X.

02:20:55   We just want better ones.

02:20:56   We never want to be close to recreating

02:20:59   that bad old world of those rows of icons.

02:21:01   Yeah, we want the feature, but if you're technically informed at all, you don't want the buggy ramifications

02:21:11   of it.

02:21:12   Yeah, I've backed off.

02:21:13   I used a lot more memory patching extensions in the early days of OS X, a lot of it, to

02:21:17   backfill functionality that wasn't in the OS itself, and I've just slowly pared those

02:21:20   things down.

02:21:22   I ran Application Enhancer APE from the Unsanity guys.

02:21:25   I ran that for years and years, but then at a certain point,

02:21:27   it was like, enough is enough.

02:21:29   I'm only using it for one or two things.

02:21:32   I can live without them.

02:21:33   Like window shape was the last one to go

02:21:34   'cause I really truly love that

02:21:35   and I wish I could get it back now.

02:21:37   But clean hooks into the OS with real APIs

02:21:41   that don't involve invading the memory space

02:21:43   of another process.

02:21:44   That's what we've always wanted the whole time

02:21:46   and now Apple is finally providing that.

02:21:47   So I hope every existing Apple mechanism,

02:21:51   'cause there's still ones, Apple supported ones

02:21:52   of like text input methods and all sorts of other things

02:21:55   It actually will load you put something in a special folder you launch your application and the fret the cocoa frameworks will look in that

02:22:00   folder for your thing and load it into the application and you're supposed to be well behaved and not do anything nasty and you know,

02:22:05   but like not supposed to

02:22:07   Implement something that changes what happens when you double click at the top of any window

02:22:12   Yeah, but like once you're in there like that's why you know scripting editions were like a gateway into the thing or the symbol extensions

02:22:18   like

02:22:19   You know

02:22:20   We have all those things but some of them are officially out even like the menu bar icons

02:22:24   Someone was trying to crack me on this one. I'm pretty sure someone can send any correction to you if I'm wrong about this

02:22:29   That if you write a badly behaved menu bar, you know icon type thing

02:22:33   You can crisis crash system UI server because you're kind of in the mix there

02:22:37   maybe maybe that's not the case now if you use NS data bar instead of the

02:22:40   Ns-status item instead of the the menu extras thing that's supposed to be undocumented

02:22:45   But anyway, there's still lots of officially supported Apple things where you can get your code into someone else's memory space

02:22:50   And all those mechanisms, I would like them to make a officially supported, you know,

02:22:56   separate process extension mechanism like all the, you know, the ones that are in Yosemite.

02:23:00   Because I like all that functionality, I'll like it even better if you can make it safer

02:23:03   so that a badly behaved extension can't crash my app.

02:23:07   Yeah.

02:23:08   The part of your review that I thought, I was a little surprised that you spent as much

02:23:12   space on it was Swift.

02:23:16   And after reading it, it made all the sense in the world.

02:23:18   And I thought it was really, really good.

02:23:20   I thought it was you know

02:23:21   But that's why I like your reviews is your your you always surprised me with something

02:23:24   Because I didn't anticipate you writing that much about Swift because I didn't see Swift as a Yosemite feature

02:23:29   I just saw it as something that coincidentally was a 2014 thing that Apple did and you know

02:23:35   IOS 8 and Yosemite just happened to be the first new OS is that you know that you can write

02:23:40   Yeah, that's like I was mentioning on ATP

02:23:44   Like I found myself at WWDC sitting in metal sessions and taking notes right like what am I doing?

02:23:50   This isn't this isn't an OS X technology metal is for iOS only like why am I even bought but like it's because I was starting

02:23:56   to view

02:23:57   Everything that Apple did not as like oh, this is a Mac technology

02:24:00   This is an iOS technology, but it's like these are Apple's platform technologies and even though metal isn't on the Mac now

02:24:05   There's no reason it couldn't be in the future. And even though Swift is not specific to OS X

02:24:09   It's just as applicable to OS X as it is to iOS, right?

02:24:11   I mean the other reason of course I made such a big section out of this is two reasons one

02:24:17   There's always something that I put in the review that I know almost nobody cares about but that I write a whole big like

02:24:22   Disproportionate amount about it. Maybe not as much as Swift, but like, you know, I wrote a whole section on launch D at one point

02:24:27   Right. No one no one freaking cares about launch D except for me

02:24:29   So, you know like that it was interesting to me and I was like I give myself that right and the second thing is because I

02:24:35   Have a personal history with like the whole clamoring for a new language and everything

02:24:39   I was gonna have my say and I was gonna do it in my OS 10 review and people could just deal with it

02:24:43   I think your take is interesting and it's the reaction that people at large have had to Swift is

02:24:48   curious to me

02:24:51   Because I see an awful ever since WWC and continuing until now. I see an awful lot of criticism

02:24:57   from developers of

02:25:00   About Swift that to me just seems uncalled for like it's it's the first version

02:25:07   They just came out with it

02:25:08   it's going to get better like all programming languages do.

02:25:13   Like, the thing is though is that they're showing it to us

02:25:16   by Apple standards extraordinarily early.

02:25:20   And letting us, letting our, here's what we're thinking,

02:25:23   you know, here's our idea for the next generation language

02:25:26   for writing apps for our platforms in a very early stage.

02:25:30   And then they've already incorporated a slew of feedback

02:25:34   from the outside.

02:25:36   It's, to me in a broad sense,

02:25:37   It's exactly what we've, a lot of us have been hoping to see from Apple, not just regarding

02:25:41   developer tools, but just Apple in general of don't be, and you've written about this

02:25:47   numerous times, like don't just take seven smart people and put them aside and let them

02:25:51   work for five years and come out with a thing because no matter how smart they are and how

02:25:55   talented they are, they're gonna have, their own personal idiosyncrasies are gonna lead

02:26:00   them to overlook certain things, you know, that they wouldn't if it was exposed to the

02:26:05   world at large.

02:26:07   But now they've finished it and they've given it to us and here it is.

02:26:11   Like if they had been working on Swift for another two years and then came out with it

02:26:16   but said this is it, it's final, it wouldn't have incorporated all sorts of things that

02:26:20   they're incorporating.

02:26:22   But they're getting flak for it, like the fact that it's changed so much just since

02:26:26   WWDC.

02:26:27   Well, I think you've kind of made their argument for them in some respects.

02:26:31   There's two parts to this.

02:26:32   is that a lot of things about Swift are fundamental to the philosophy embodied by the language,

02:26:38   mostly having to do with how method calls are bound, like what implementation happens

02:26:44   when I call this method, or basically method calls instead of message passing or whatever.

02:26:48   Philosophically, late binding versus early binding. And Swift wants to have everything

02:26:52   statically figured out. It needs to know what code, you type something here, it looks like

02:26:56   a function call, what implementation does that actually run? Swift wants to know what

02:27:00   compile time objective-c its runtime was like oh it's all dynamic dispatch I can

02:27:04   figure out what it is you can do method swizzling you can form method names out

02:27:08   of strings and call them that philosophical divide is not something

02:27:12   that's going to be changed with a tweak to the language even though Swift can

02:27:15   use the objective-c runtime as you if you subclass alvanis object and those

02:27:19   all this stuff anyway that philosophical divide dynamic versus static that's

02:27:24   that's just an honest difference between people who like that aspect of

02:27:28   Objective-C and the people who designed Swift who are saying that type of

02:27:31   dynamic aspect makes whole classes of optimization impossible for us because

02:27:35   we can't see through the call boundary to understand how we can optimize across

02:27:38   across that call because we don't even know what the hell it's gonna call and

02:27:42   so that's a philosophical difference no amount of tweaking is gonna change that

02:27:46   and the second thing is the idea that they're putting it out early and then

02:27:48   doing doing these tweaks to like the minor details and stuff like that you

02:27:52   know the complaint against that possibly by different people you know which is

02:27:56   why Apple really can't win here,

02:27:58   'cause you're not gonna please everybody,

02:27:59   is that, hey, Swift is great and all,

02:28:01   but it would have been,

02:28:02   they think that it was basically,

02:28:05   these guys went off and some smart guys

02:28:06   came out with this thing.

02:28:07   We really would have loved it

02:28:08   if you had built a major application

02:28:10   with this language first,

02:28:12   and then presented it to us.

02:28:13   Like if you had dog fooded it longer,

02:28:15   because if you had dog fooded it,

02:28:17   you would have found all the same exact things

02:28:18   we're finding and like,

02:28:19   how many times have they tweaked

02:28:20   how it interacts with like core foundation

02:28:22   and Objective-C APIs,

02:28:24   like the various idioms of how,

02:28:26   because they didn't write all new frameworks.

02:28:28   They need this language to work with their existing frameworks

02:28:30   and it's not quite an exact match.

02:28:31   So they have to come up with conventions for like

02:28:33   when you call one of these things, we're going to do this.

02:28:35   And you're like all these different conventions of how to handle

02:28:38   in/out error parameters and mapping between optionals

02:28:41   which exists in Swift and like nil and you know,

02:28:44   because there's no optionals like that in Objective-C

02:28:46   and how do we cross those boundaries?

02:28:48   If they had used Swift to write a major application

02:28:51   that, so the argument goes, they would have figured

02:28:55   a lot of this stuff out on their own,

02:28:56   instead of bringing it out to us so early,

02:28:59   it seems like this was kept really private

02:29:01   to a small group of people,

02:29:02   and now you're throwing it on top of us,

02:29:04   and we're like, oh, it's not ready.

02:29:05   Now, that's kind of self-contradictory.

02:29:07   It's like, what do you want?

02:29:07   Do you wanna see it early, or do you want it to be done?

02:29:09   Or you want it to have feedback,

02:29:11   but different people want different things.

02:29:13   It's not like a single person is trying to ask Apple

02:29:16   to do things that are completely contradictory.

02:29:18   It's different groups of people

02:29:19   want different things out of Apple.

02:29:20   So yeah, I mean, I think of that too.

02:29:23   I think what Objectives C looked like in 1989 or whatever,

02:29:25   and what objectivity looks like now.

02:29:26   And the pace of development of objectivity

02:29:29   has accelerated so much in the past few years

02:29:32   that I'm willing to give Swift a lot of leeway

02:29:35   to get things right.

02:29:36   But philosophically speaking,

02:29:38   if you have a disagreement,

02:29:39   like dynamic dispatch and everything like that,

02:29:42   that I don't see,

02:29:44   that's just gonna have to be in a disagreement

02:29:46   because I don't think that's gonna change that much.

02:29:48   'Cause it's like the idea is like,

02:29:50   is it dynamic by default?

02:29:51   Am I gonna tie it down or is it static by default?

02:29:53   And you can make it dynamic.

02:29:54   and Swift is very much in the camp of static by default,

02:29:57   and you have the ability to make certain things dynamic,

02:29:59   and other people are like, no, no,

02:30:00   you got the defaults wrong, it should be the other way,

02:30:02   but they're coming from different places.

02:30:04   - Yeah, reading your review,

02:30:06   and what you had to say about Swift,

02:30:08   and I love it, to me it's the right way to have about this.

02:30:13   You even admit that there's aspects of the language

02:30:16   that you as a programmer aren't to your liking.

02:30:19   You're not, you don't like having the--

02:30:24   - Static typing. - Static typing.

02:30:25   But you don't take that as therefore it's bad, right?

02:30:32   Statically typed languages are bad.

02:30:33   It is a perfect, you know, that's,

02:30:36   so much of the internet is not being able to acknowledge,

02:30:40   okay, I disagree with that, I dislike that,

02:30:43   but that, I can acknowledge that that is a valid,

02:30:47   a valid philosophy to have, right?

02:30:49   - And especially since they stated their goals.

02:30:51   Like we said, this is the type of language we wanna make,

02:30:53   And you can evaluate Swift and how well does it achieve their own stated goals?

02:30:57   And then you can also like like I said a lot of the arguments against Swift is like

02:31:00   Maybe you disagree with the goals then fine

02:31:03   Then what you could say is you should never have tried to make a language

02:31:05   That is as convenient as a scripting language

02:31:08   But you could write whole S's in it because you you make a crappy word is like a jack-of-all-trades master of none

02:31:12   Like feel free to argue with the premises in the mission statement

02:31:15   But that is a separate argument which you can have from if I accept this mission statement

02:31:20   you know what how well does Swift fulfill that mission and

02:31:23   What were the how did it do it?

02:31:26   Like that's the most interesting thing to me because I think the mission is incredibly ambitious

02:31:29   Like I said, it's a totally an Apple move

02:31:31   Like it is very gutsy and very ambitious and not because it's not doing what everyone seemingly who's complaining about one

02:31:37   Do like just make me a better nicer objective C. That's all I want

02:31:40   Don't try to make some crazy language that you think you can use for everything like that

02:31:44   You could you know because if you look at the software stack

02:31:46   Like you have things that are written in C and even in C++

02:31:50   And then you have things that are written in Objective-C and why are these three languages there? It's like well

02:31:53   But they're really low-level stuff like the kernel and like it may be even like, you know

02:31:58   Core Foundation and like then you have to use C and C++ for those things

02:32:01   But then for like the higher level frameworks, those are in Objective-C and Swift is saying

02:32:05   Why can't we have one language that spans that whole range?

02:32:07   Why do we have one language and maybe we're not gonna write the kernel in it just yet

02:32:10   But we could if we really wanted to because we wouldn't have to worry about a performance hit

02:32:14   Right because it can be as fast as those low-level languages

02:32:17   But it can go all the way up to hey

02:32:18   You just want to type a bunch of stuff and you know you want to do you know?

02:32:21   You know hash bang user bin Swift and just start typing

02:32:25   Yeah, and you want to create you want to create a string just by typing?

02:32:28   You know quotation mark here's the string another quotation like and all

02:32:34   All the things we love about JavaScript or Perl or Ruby or Python and make one language that spans that whole range because and it's an

02:32:41   ambitious goal and it would be great for Apple if they can pull it off because

02:32:43   then it's like hey finally we don't have to hire C developers C++

02:32:46   Objective-C developers and maintain a compiler that can compile all three of

02:32:51   those languages that have different standards you got C99 C++11 and

02:32:54   whatever the hell we're doing to Objective-C if we just make one language

02:32:57   that we control everything about that it's our thing that spans the entire

02:33:00   range of our things boy wouldn't that be amazing yeah and maybe they're biting

02:33:04   off more than they can chew but I admire the ambition and my question is how the

02:33:07   the hell you gonna do that? And so I wanted to delve into how do you make a

02:33:11   language? It's easy to make the parts that you type like you can just say blah

02:33:14   blah blah our language looks like this here's the keywords here's the syntax

02:33:17   and then we'll just write a compiler that makes turns that into code that

02:33:20   runs. It's like that's the hard part you know how do you how do you get from

02:33:23   something that looks like JavaScript or Perl or Ruby or Python but is as fast as

02:33:28   C and that's what I spent the entire second of this room delving into because

02:33:31   I think it's interesting and definitely a change of pace from the way Apple has

02:33:37   It's you know compiler software in the past and certainly a change of pace from the way

02:33:40   JavaScript runtimes are implemented or Java runtimes or certainly Ruby Python for all that stuff

02:33:46   Yeah, it's it's evident and it's funny because you know, so many Apple employees are just

02:33:52   Never in public and never named

02:33:55   And you know who knows how influential they are inside the company

02:34:00   But you know because Chris Latner started the LLVM project outside Apple, you know

02:34:06   And then they more or less it's weird because it wasn't a company

02:34:09   It was an open-source project, but they effectively aqua hired him when they bought it

02:34:13   All right, you know effectively bought the open-source project

02:34:17   When they brought him in board, but he's you know, that's clearly to be you know

02:34:22   It's very obvious like you said that that there have been in the rate of change of objective-c

02:34:26   Improvements over the last few years has been impressive. Well, it coincides with the LLVM era

02:34:32   Maybe they got the compote they took control of the compiler brought that you know

02:34:37   What they should own and control the key technologies for that platform. The compiler is one of those technologies. Why are we using GCC?

02:34:42   It's hampering our ability to extend the language is hampering our ability to optimize is hampering our ability to make our IDE

02:34:47   They have this multi multi-year transition

02:34:50   Slowly slowly getting away from GCC to be completely on an LVM based compiler and then like they're off to the race, right?

02:34:57   And it's like you said you have to look back to what are the goals of the project GCC is a fantastic?

02:35:02   project. It is one of the most successful computer science projects in history, but

02:35:09   its stated goal is to be a universal compiler for any and all platforms. And

02:35:14   the fact that it succeeded at that is why it was there for Next to use when

02:35:20   they started bolting on Objective-C features to see back in the 80s. It's the

02:35:26   fact that GCC was there and aimed to be universal was the reason that they could

02:35:33   get it to work but then the fact that it's universal and it's you know is this

02:35:37   apparently convoluted you know really really impenetrable code codebase

02:35:42   eventually just really hampered their ability to move the language forward and

02:35:47   it was also old like it's an old code base and and then anything you did it's

02:35:51   kind of like doing anything with w3c you know all that even worse actually

02:35:54   Anything you did, like it kinda has to be,

02:35:56   your needs aren't the only needs here.

02:35:58   There are other stakeholders,

02:35:59   and you kinda have to get agreement

02:36:00   from all parties involved

02:36:01   that this is the thing that you wanna do

02:36:03   because there's just one code base,

02:36:04   whereas Apple doesn't need anyone's okay

02:36:05   to do whatever the hell they want with their compiler.

02:36:08   And it's not quite like that.

02:36:10   There's Clang and that stuff.

02:36:11   That's a C++ compiler.

02:36:12   Those are open source.

02:36:14   There are other people that are using them.

02:36:16   Apple can't just do whatever the hell they want

02:36:17   with that type of thing,

02:36:18   'cause then they'd end up with a fork,

02:36:19   'cause other people would be like,

02:36:20   well, I don't want Apple's Clang.

02:36:21   So they're sensitive to that there,

02:36:22   But thus far Swift is not open source and not open. That's another issue people have with the language

02:36:27   It's entirely theirs. I don't know if that will change in the future

02:36:31   I know there are people inside Apple who want it to be open source

02:36:34   But there are you know that is not high on their priority list apparently like right now

02:36:38   They're just you know

02:36:38   Yeah

02:36:39   Yeah

02:36:39   I'd always say it out the door get get Yosemite out the door get the language in shipshape and then revisit this issue in the future

02:36:46   I don't think they're do anything like that until it settles down until you know Swift of

02:36:52   of this year is nearly identical to Swift of last year.

02:36:56   - Let's see, I don't think they need like,

02:36:58   that is, I can understand that the desire to do that,

02:37:01   like with the motivation, like what makes you feel like,

02:37:03   let's just, you know, let's just table this

02:37:05   until we get our stuff together, right?

02:37:07   But compared to WebKit though, WebKit was like, you know,

02:37:11   open because it came from KHTML, it was always open

02:37:14   and did it, did it in pay, like, well, we don't wanna make,

02:37:16   we don't wanna show WebKit to the world

02:37:17   until it settles down.

02:37:18   Well, they show WebKit to the world

02:37:19   as soon as they announced Safari

02:37:20   and it was definitely shaky and weird,

02:37:22   and it doesn't seem to have hurt WebKit development.

02:37:24   So I think it can be done.

02:37:25   It's just a question of,

02:37:27   it's like, it's a question of priorities.

02:37:28   And Apple has never been the greatest open source citizen

02:37:31   in terms of like, you have complete access to our repository,

02:37:34   you can see our changes in real time.

02:37:35   They just do dumps.

02:37:36   Like they do their work, it's hidden away,

02:37:38   and then they release the product based on it,

02:37:40   and then there's an open source dump.

02:37:41   And that is not really the way

02:37:44   that everyone wants open source to work,

02:37:46   but it's sure better than never giving the code at all.

02:37:49   The gist of it is that the more I learn about Swift

02:37:53   and get past the intro, chapter one

02:37:57   of the Swift programming book,

02:37:58   just hello world type programs,

02:38:00   it's evident that it is exactly what you would think it is.

02:38:05   It's a language designed by a compiler guy,

02:38:08   which is interesting, right?

02:38:10   - A compiler guy who likes C++ a little bit.

02:38:13   - Yeah, it clearly comes through a little bit.

02:38:16   - I mean, LLVM is written in C++,

02:38:18   and LVM, you know, like, it's obviously everyone

02:38:21   who uses C++, anyone who uses any language

02:38:25   for a long period of time comes to hate that language,

02:38:28   but also kind of like it.

02:38:30   I mean, like the longer you use it,

02:38:32   the more you're just like the parts that you hate

02:38:33   just great on you, but you also kind of like it.

02:38:35   So like Swift has a lot of the things in it.

02:38:38   You're like, this person clearly hates a lot of features

02:38:40   about C++, but also kind of thinks some of them

02:38:42   are kind of okay and just like,

02:38:44   just like, boy, I wish they had been done differently.

02:38:46   - Yeah, but it's so obvious,

02:38:49   and I think the details you delve into

02:38:50   make a lot of these things clear,

02:38:51   where it's never academically precocious.

02:38:56   It's not, this is clever, this, you know,

02:38:59   which is like when you and I were younger,

02:39:01   a lot of the new languages were--

02:39:02   - Like Dylan or Smalltalk or Lisp.

02:39:05   - Yeah, exactly.

02:39:06   - It's like mathematically pure Haskell these days.

02:39:08   - Right, well, Lisp predates us.

02:39:10   Lisp is from the '50s, but that whole derivative,

02:39:14   that whole realm of languages.

02:39:16   Dylan's a perfect example,

02:39:17   'cause it was, I think it came up in the '90s.

02:39:19   But it was academically interesting,

02:39:22   but yeah, it was a purist viewpoint on something.

02:39:26   - Yeah, how would you make Mac toolbox calls from Dylan?

02:39:29   Whereas Swift is like, the whole purpose of this language

02:39:32   is we have to be able to call into the,

02:39:35   both, we have to call into the C, C++,

02:39:38   and Objective-C frameworks that already exist.

02:39:40   All right, so, and we have to be able to work

02:39:42   like NSObject and the Objective-C runtime.

02:39:44   And by the way, even though it's a memory-safe thing by default,

02:39:47   we also have to wait to do unsafe pointers,

02:39:49   because sometimes we need to do that.

02:39:51   Totally pragmatic, because it can't afford to do anything else.

02:39:54   The mission statement is, to be this language that spans this huge range,

02:39:57   and it spans this huge range because, guess what?

02:40:00   Apple has a bunch of existing code in that huge range,

02:40:03   and if you want to interface with it or someday replace it,

02:40:05   you have to span the same range, and they get to use three languages,

02:40:08   or four languages, depending how you count.

02:40:10   Like, you know C++, C, Objective-C, and then like shell scripting or Python or even AppleScript or whatever.

02:40:18   You want to try to span that whole range? You're gonna have to be pragmatic about what you're willing to do to your beautiful language.

02:40:24   And it's, you know, a lot of the languages that are popular were not designed by compiler guys. Larry Wall was not a compiler guy.

02:40:32   guy. I mean, it's, you know, it was, he was, it was the replacement for like a bunch of

02:40:37   shell scripts and, you know, TR and sed and awk. And, you know, as I would just, he, more

02:40:43   or less it was, here's the syntax I'd like to be able to write to do these things. And

02:40:47   then he made a thing that did them. And I think, you know, and like you said on ATP,

02:40:53   then a lot of, for decades after there's been a lot of work of, well, how do we make this

02:40:56   crazy language fast?

02:40:57   Oh, not so much for Perl, but like JavaScript, for example, like, oh, this syntax looks kind

02:41:01   I like Java, it's not really,

02:41:02   and by the way, we'll make some way to run it.

02:41:04   - Right, and it was no consideration to how to make it fast,

02:41:08   and then the result was an interesting language

02:41:10   that was pretty approachable for most people

02:41:12   who can program, and it was dreadfully slow.

02:41:15   And it's been, like you said, millions of dollars,

02:41:18   and like three, four, five major generations

02:41:21   of how are we actually going to run JavaScript

02:41:25   to get to where we are today,

02:41:26   where it runs at a reasonable speed,

02:41:27   whereas Swift, being written by a compiler guy,

02:41:31   Maybe the preeminent compiler guy in the world today

02:41:34   has, it just reeks from top to bottom

02:41:36   of this is going to be fast.

02:41:38   - Yeah, C was written by compiler guys too.

02:41:41   Like the languages that look like, you know,

02:41:43   portable assembly, like where you can see where it maps.

02:41:45   It's not that rare for language to be written

02:41:47   by a compiler guy, but it's rare for a high level language.

02:41:50   - Right, well that's exactly it.

02:41:51   That's exactly it.

02:41:52   Where in fact C looks like it's written by a compiler guy

02:41:54   'cause it looks like compiler, you know, input.

02:41:58   It looks like an intermediary format.

02:42:02   - Yeah, you can squint at it

02:42:04   and see the assembly code that corresponds to that.

02:42:06   Especially with like CISC CPUs back in the day.

02:42:08   - Yeah, and especially if you look at older C code

02:42:11   from the '70s and '80s before some of the

02:42:14   slightly higher level features that got added

02:42:16   in later versions.

02:42:18   Right, it's on its sleeve.

02:42:22   This is made to be easy to compile.

02:42:25   - You should read, you probably didn't

02:42:27   because it's really gonna go too long,

02:42:28   but one of the many, many, many things I linked in the review

02:42:31   was a link to that awesome WebKit blog post

02:42:35   about the fourth tier LLVM optimizer for JavaScript.

02:42:40   Try actually reading that whole article

02:42:43   'cause they take you through it.

02:42:45   It's really, really well written

02:42:46   and they lead you through it a piece at a time

02:42:48   and you'll probably get like 50%, 60% through it

02:42:50   and realize they haven't even gotten to the part

02:42:52   that tells you the new thing they did.

02:42:53   Everything they've just described so far

02:42:55   that is blowing your mind

02:42:56   is existing JavaScript optimization features.

02:42:58   They haven't even gotten to the fourth tier part.

02:43:01   Like the hoops they jumped through to make JavaScript fast,

02:43:04   just make your head spin.

02:43:06   Like every one of them seemed so incredibly dangerous

02:43:08   that it would be advisable to try and seems impossible

02:43:11   that it could ever be made to work.

02:43:12   And yet that's where we're all running in our web browsers.

02:43:15   - Right.

02:43:16   And it's on every platform, every day, every, you know,

02:43:21   and probably, I mean, I don't see any way out of it

02:43:24   where for the rest of our life,

02:43:25   JavaScript is gonna be a part of it.

02:43:27   the rest of our life. I'm going to plan on living for a long time, but you got Google

02:43:30   with Dart and everything. People take runs at it from time to time. If anybody ever gets

02:43:35   like, it's like Bitcoin, if everyone ever gets more than 50% of the compute power, if

02:43:39   anyone ever gets dominant market share and web browsers again, which doesn't look like

02:43:44   it's going to happen, but hey, who knows?

02:43:45   They could replace it.

02:43:48   Someone could seize the moment and be like, "Google's tried with Dart. We have a popular

02:43:52   browser. How about everyone write Dart and we can precompile it?" It's like JavaScript,

02:43:55   able to be and everyone's like nope sorry you don't have that kind of you don't have that kind

02:43:59   of pull we're just gonna keep writing javascript but i don't put it out like even like when i when

02:44:03   i look at swift i made a few sly illusions in the thing of like oh there's no reason that apple

02:44:11   couldn't say oh and by the way you can just like you can write dart and they'll run you know google

02:44:16   chrome whatever you can put swift code and and if you load your in your web pages instead of

02:44:22   JavaScript and when we load them we will compile that Swift code and keep the

02:44:26   compiled version it'll be much faster than JavaScript because it's on that

02:44:29   level of like it's not that much worse to use than JavaScript in the libraries

02:44:33   are not up to snuff or whatever but or even just server-side web programming

02:44:37   like the places where Swift can grow is not not constrained in the same way as

02:44:41   Objective C or any of other apples other languages so if Apple ever wanted to

02:44:45   make that move and say you know you can use JavaScript as your scripting

02:44:49   language you wrote Paves or you can use Swift to do it like if you were gonna

02:44:53   make like an iOS only web app where you knew the target platform could do that

02:44:57   right with a built-in library that's in the in the browser you know with a bunch

02:45:01   of niceties yeah and the compiler gets fast enough in the language like there

02:45:06   are many things that are possible when this very new baby Swift starts getting

02:45:11   mature like it if they succeed in their goal to make a language that spans this

02:45:14   range and that is able to be fast and everything is all sorts of places with

02:45:17   can go like even just down to like the stupid shell scripts and Perl scripts they have that

02:45:21   are buried inside the installer packages install software on OS 10. Yeah. If if Swift had a

02:45:27   file I/O library that was worth a damn instead of having to use cocoa for stuff like the

02:45:32   language doesn't preclude that they could they could make change all those scripts like

02:45:35   you could really make one big unified language or it could turn out the 10 years from now

02:45:39   we turn out it was folly to try to span that range with one language and didn't work out

02:45:42   but well and it makes me it's funny too and it makes me think it's one of those things

02:45:46   where it was like, you know, in inside Apple, a lot of people don't know what was good.

02:45:50   I mean, no, but almost nobody knew that Swift was going on. Everybody I talked to at Apple

02:45:54   was surprised by Swift's announcement as we were.

02:45:57   That's why working for Apple is exciting. You're like, what the, what?

02:46:00   But it's, to me, it's an unfortunate coincidence that it also happened to be the year that

02:46:05   the automation group added JavaScript support as an alternative to Apple script. Everywhere

02:46:11   you could write Apple script. Now you can write JavaScript. It seems to me like a better

02:46:15   idea might have been to hold off on that and wait until you can do it in Swift.

02:46:19   Did you see the tweet someone had like with the JavaScript automation of the OSA script thing,

02:46:25   you can use the JavaScript automation to call into an Objective-C library that loads Ruby and

02:46:31   then you run Ruby code. It was like four languages in one command line, like showing like all the

02:46:36   things. There's all these weird bridges, you know, because you can from JavaScript automation,

02:46:41   you can load Objective-C libraries and from some Objective-C libraries, you can load the Ruby

02:46:45   I guess from the Ruby cocoa thing or whatever. Yeah, it is quiet and then just a Swift into that mix, too

02:46:50   They can interoperate with Objective C as well. Yeah

02:46:52   I'll sort itself out. I guess I guess so, but it seems to me like the future of I mean

02:46:58   I'm always happy when the automation stuff has any new features and

02:47:02   because I'm always afraid that they're gonna should turn the lights out on on sales group, but

02:47:06   So it's it's called the libraries. What's that? They got libraries last year. Yeah. No, they've been it

02:47:13   - No, I don't-- - They got JavaScript.

02:47:15   - Right, I only say that because I just know

02:47:17   that at a high level Apple's interest isn't there.

02:47:19   I'm not saying that the last couple of years

02:47:21   haven't been good.

02:47:22   I think the last couple of years have been great.

02:47:23   Like script libraries have been great.

02:47:25   There have been, you know,

02:47:26   and I think adding JavaScript

02:47:27   as a supported language is great.

02:47:29   I just can't help but think though that in the long run,

02:47:32   there'll be more scripts written in,

02:47:35   automation scripts written in Swift

02:47:38   than AppleScript or JavaScript.

02:47:40   - For all of those things,

02:47:41   and the reason you can have all these different languages,

02:47:43   The problem is not the language, except maybe AppleScript, which is a gross language to

02:47:47   people who want a regular programming language.

02:47:50   The problem is the APIs you're talking to.

02:47:52   That's the hard part.

02:47:53   It's like, you've got to figure out, what is this dictionary support?

02:47:57   Can I do what I need to do?

02:47:58   Can I address this window in a way that is reliable?

02:48:01   Can I get the element in this window?

02:48:04   It's all down to how scriptable the application is.

02:48:06   And the language is just a minor implementation detail at that point.

02:48:09   the time you're fighting with the scripting dictionaries of the apps that

02:48:13   will they even let you do what you want to do and what kind of weird hoops do

02:48:16   you have to jump through well I'm just thinking though that if they if they can

02:48:19   eventually get it to be Swift it would be easier to call into like if you

02:48:23   wanted to put like a nib or a zip however you pronounce the how you

02:48:27   pronounce the X I B version and zip sounds good a zip file with your script

02:48:31   that it's you know it would be a lot more you know just like it since Coco

02:48:36   already uses it it would be easier to call it from the scripting side too if

02:48:39   if it was the same language.

02:48:40   - Yeah, but then you're kind of doing

02:48:41   actual real application development.

02:48:43   Like you're not gonna be able to call,

02:48:45   you still have to send Apple events, right?

02:48:47   - I guess so, I don't know.

02:48:48   I mean, you do now, I don't know.

02:48:50   - Right, it's not like they're gonna let you call natively

02:48:51   into the, you know, like, I don't know.

02:48:54   The automation story has always been a little bit weird.

02:48:57   I think it's been making progress in recent years,

02:48:59   so I'm kind of optimistic about it.

02:49:01   I like the idea that like,

02:49:02   when they renamed Apple Script Editor to Script Editor,

02:49:05   and now actually when you launch it,

02:49:07   you can pick which language you want to be your default

02:49:09   and each window has a little pop-up menu that says,

02:49:11   it's a script editor, do you wanna write AppleScript

02:49:14   or JavaScript or SwiftScript, not quite yet,

02:49:17   but like it's poised to, you know,

02:49:19   OSA was always supposed to be multi-language,

02:49:21   but for the longest time, it was like multi-language

02:49:23   in theory, and now it's finally multi-language

02:49:25   and actuality again, so.

02:49:27   - Yeah, finally.

02:49:28   It is finally, that's an actual non-ironic, non-ironic,

02:49:34   finally.

02:49:35   - Yeah, there's probably, I'm trying to think

02:49:36   of what other languages that people have been using,

02:49:38   like people won't use frontier anymore.

02:49:40   - No, but that was one of them.

02:49:42   Well, and there was JavaScript,

02:49:43   Mark Aldret of Late Night Software,

02:49:46   the guy behind Script Debugger,

02:49:48   and he had Faceband for a while.

02:49:51   He had a JavaScript OSA that was built,

02:49:54   I'm gonna say Mozilla's JavaScript engine,

02:49:57   that worked, but it never really took off,

02:50:01   'cause I think it's the sort of thing

02:50:02   where it had to come from Apple to really take off.

02:50:05   And there were certain weirdnesses

02:50:08   that using JavaScript instead of AppleScript, you ended up with tangled syntax that was

02:50:13   like what? It would take Apple to fix it because it had to be fixed at the OSA level, not at

02:50:20   the language level.

02:50:21   Yeah, that's always been a little bit weird. The language is just so different. How can

02:50:27   you call the same things? Especially when you're calling it other libraries. Again,

02:50:32   JavaScript can import the Objective-C stuff and then you're making Objective-C calls with

02:50:36   name parameters but JavaScript doesn't have name parameters. You got all these mangled

02:50:39   things. It's just like the Python, Cocoa, bridges they've had and everything. All those

02:50:43   cross language things are weird. But OSA is always going to be cross language because

02:50:46   that's the whole point of it. It's open scripting architecture.

02:50:50   It always comes back to AppleScript. Anyway, we've gone on long enough, I think. It's been

02:50:57   a good show. I love your review. And ATP is my favorite show.

02:51:04   Thank you.

02:51:05   all because of you. I always know you're trying to make up for that at a coven post. Well,

02:51:09   here's the thing. I like Casey, I like Marco, but one of the things that's interesting about

02:51:14   the ATP is that you guys often disagree. Maybe even usually one of the three of you is going

02:51:18   to disagree. And whenever there's an argument and I'm listening, and I know everybody out

02:51:22   there, people often tell me this. It's like everybody who listens to podcasts knows this

02:51:25   feeling where like somebody will say something and you want to jump in and either correct

02:51:29   something they said was wrong or point out the logical conclusion of where this is going.

02:51:35   I the thing that makes ATP my favorite show is that you're always there to do it and it's so satisfying like I'll think oh

02:51:41   I got it

02:51:42   I got to write to these guys and tell them that reminds me of something and

02:51:45   As soon as you have a chump chance to jump in nine times out of ten you say exactly what it is that I was

02:51:50   Hoping somebody would say yeah

02:51:52   Cuts both ways. I was just complaining one of the after shows recently

02:51:55   I think I tweeted you about it like when you're talking about the 16

02:51:58   gigs of flash which we didn't get to talk about on the in the iOS devices and how that how this terrible like we

02:52:04   recorded an ATP and I called that move like a punitive mood on Apple's part and

02:52:08   and then you before we could post our show you either posted a blog post about

02:52:13   it where you called it punitive or released a podcast about it where you

02:52:16   called the punitive and it's like god damn it like it's very we both same

02:52:20   thing but yours got out first but yeah I know I know the feel like again this way

02:52:25   when I hear you on podcasts I think the same thing like we we tend to think and

02:52:30   say the same things and then it's like half the time you're excited to hear the other

02:52:34   person chiming in with what you would have said if you're there and the other half of

02:52:37   the time you're like I was just thinking that. Don't get credit for that idea.

02:52:42   We shouldn't go on long about it but we could talk about the 16 gig thing quickly but I

02:52:47   think if you want to stop dancing around the elephant in the room I think the bottom line

02:52:52   is and I think you guys even mentioned this what it all comes down to is a fear in the

02:52:56   back of our heads that this is a Tim Cook thing because it really only makes

02:53:01   sense I think it makes perfect sense it's if you're staring at a spreadsheet

02:53:04   of component costs and profit margins and the combined net with a projection

02:53:14   of how a 1664 128 spread would push X number of people to get 64 instead of

02:53:23   the lower price model than in a 32-64-128 scenario.

02:53:28   From a spreadsheet perspective, it makes perfect sense.

02:53:32   I completely understand every aspect of it.

02:53:35   But in every other way, it is, to me,

02:53:38   it's a boneheaded mistake.

02:53:40   - Tim Cook's the same guy going on all the talk shows

02:53:42   and TV stations and talking about how Apple

02:53:44   doesn't do moves that are short term,

02:53:46   is not looking for short term stock market game,

02:53:48   it's long term thinking or whatever.

02:53:49   So he's saying all the right things,

02:53:51   but sometimes people just make mistakes.

02:53:52   Like I said when we were talking about this, this decision to go with the 1664, 128, like

02:53:57   this decision was made a long time ago.

02:54:00   And I think by now, when they're having the meetings about like iOS 8 adoption and storage

02:54:04   space and stuff like that, like hopefully they're going to correct for it.

02:54:07   Like they're not perfect, they make mistakes.

02:54:09   I think they may be just miscalculated.

02:54:11   Like they were dazzled by all the things that you mentioned.

02:54:14   Like boy, look at how we can push people up to the product line.

02:54:16   And in exchange, like do we think there are any downsides to the 16?

02:54:21   And they were able to convince themselves that the downsides weren't that big of a deal.

02:54:25   But that, still selling 16s and still selling the A5 with no way for developers to exclude

02:54:31   it, I think the meetings they're having now, hopefully they're discussing these things

02:54:34   and saying, going forward for the next set of things, let's not make this particular

02:54:37   mistake again.

02:54:39   Let's remedy this.

02:54:40   There's a big lag time in this type of thing.

02:54:42   You know, again, when they came out with that same range and when they came out with the

02:54:46   iPads and it was the same range, it's not like they can learn that lesson between when

02:54:49   I felt like it's just you know there is a long turnaround time this and I'm hoping that

02:54:53   It's this is not like you know a like them being duplicitous about the philosophy

02:54:58   But it merely a mistake that they will correct going forward

02:55:01   I hope so because my fear is if they don't go to 32 next year

02:55:04   Then they're already going to be too late with 32 and when they do go to 32

02:55:08   It's already going to be 32 is too little yeah

02:55:11   And the thing is it it's on them to get this right because they're there the company that does not add an SD card slot

02:55:16   their you know iOS devices right so they really and you can't upgrade it and so

02:55:20   like they really need they really need to get this right and they're doing

02:55:23   things like making cameras that shoot yeah 1080p video like really credible

02:55:30   1080p video like really good like you're not gonna regret that you know this is

02:55:34   this is your your footage of your you know son's first birthday you know and

02:55:39   time-lapse and burst mode like there's so many ways you can fill up that

02:55:43   And the panoram, 41 megapixel panoramic images.

02:55:47   Which is great, but which are huge.

02:55:50   Yeah, it's like count, it's just, yeah.

02:55:53   I don't remember if this was the most recent episode of the one before, but it's like the,

02:55:57   and you mentioned it when you were talking about how like this is the type of device where you have to give caveats when you tell people to buy it.

02:56:02   It's like all of us told people who wanted to buy Macs back when Macs were first becoming popular,

02:56:07   we'd just always tell them back in the day like, "You can go get a PowerBook, they're really awesome, but make sure you upgrade the RAM."

02:56:12   the RAM. They say, "Really? Do I need to upgrade?" I'm like, "Trust me. By default, it comes with an

02:56:16   amount of RAM that is ridiculous." And we also used to tell them to get third-party RAM because

02:56:19   Apple used to charge you a ton for it. Those stupid caveats they used to tell us, "How many

02:56:23   years did we spend telling people, 'Upgrade the RAM, don't buy Apple's RAM, buy third-party?'"

02:56:27   It added a complication and a caveat to a recommendation that made it scarier for people.

02:56:32   And now that type of thing is creeping back in. We're like, "Don't buy the 16s. You're going to

02:56:38   regret it. If you're asking me advice on which one you should buy, you're the type of person

02:56:40   Not by the 16 trust me save money for a couple more months and get the you know 64

02:56:46   Yeah

02:56:47   I just can't I don't know it just irks me that there's

02:56:50   And it doesn't bother me quite as much that like the lower-end models that the old I you know iPad minis are

02:56:57   16 but it really irks me that the new top-of-the-line one starts at 16

02:57:02   Yeah, like there's no this there's an unsafe model to buy in the flagship iPhone 6 right like people who are only gonna spend

02:57:10   $29 on their iPad are kind of I'm sure going into it with eyes wide open that they know they're not getting the best and that

02:57:16   They're you know that there's gonna be some limit. Whereas anybody buying a new iPad air -

02:57:22   I

02:57:24   Think that they should feel confident that no matter which one they get that it's it's a good it's you know

02:57:29   Good better best not and and RAM is the same thing like when they used to sell Mac models with two little rounds like you're only

02:57:35   Hurting your own image app because there was nothing worse than a Mac with a spinning disk and two little RAM

02:57:39   Yeah, and it just didn't get better memory compression was the perhaps the only bump that actually made like the brand usage you get better

02:57:45   Right, but every other thing like three OS versions from now that RAM is gonna be even worse

02:57:51   At least you could upgrade the RAM until I started soldering it on and once they did start soldering around

02:57:54   I was glad that they bumped everybody up to 16 minimum and everything like they're finally getting on the ball on that

02:57:59   But now they just dropped the ball some yeah

02:58:00   And it's it's like I've been writing that it's it's like a brand thing and it's you can't measure that on a spreadsheet

02:58:05   But the RAM thing with max like and I know an ATP use like for four megabytes of RAM

02:58:10   Which shows how old the problem I remember when for four megabytes of RAM was the baseline and it was

02:58:15   Years past where any everybody else in the industry had gone to like 16

02:58:19   But I think even to this day all the way from the era when when they were selling max with only four megabytes

02:58:29   megabytes of RAM to today

02:58:32   that helped fuel the image that so many people have that Apple price gouges people because

02:58:38   Everybody was told you have to upgrade the RAM and don't buy from app

02:58:42   Don't buy from Apple go to crucial or you know

02:58:45   somebody like that and then get someone to install it or all and sort for you and

02:58:48   Feel like you're breaking your brand new machine because you'd have to do this thing that made a snap, you know

02:58:54   Yeah, it never felt good

02:58:56   But when you know and you go and you'd say like go to crucial crucial has great RAM and you google some reviews

02:59:02   and everybody would say yeah Crucial sells high quality RAM.

02:59:05   This is good, these are good memory chips.

02:59:07   And then you see that you are saving $600

02:59:10   versus what Apple would charge you

02:59:11   for the same amount of RAM.

02:59:13   And it's actually, it was actually true

02:59:15   that Apple was price gouging you.

02:59:17   'Cause you know that Apple gets better prices

02:59:19   on the RAM than you do, or that Crucial does.

02:59:21   - And then they would be kind of jerks about it

02:59:24   where like they wouldn't service your machine

02:59:26   if it had third party RAM in it

02:59:28   and all sorts of crap like that.

02:59:29   Remember those days?

02:59:29   - Yeah, you'd take it in and they would,

02:59:31   you would have to, you yourself would have to take out

02:59:33   your third party RAM and--

02:59:34   - Hide it from them.

02:59:36   - Right, keep it in your desk in an anti-static sleeve

02:59:39   or something like that.

02:59:40   And I get, and if you replaced all of the RAM,

02:59:43   I guess you'd have to like go and find your old Apple chips

02:59:45   that you replaced and put them back in.

02:59:48   - Yeah.

02:59:49   - And yeah.

02:59:49   - And this is not a good product experience.

02:59:51   It shouldn't be like that.

02:59:52   And like they, anything like that, that just,

02:59:55   you never wanna sell somebody something

02:59:57   that you know three years from now

02:59:58   they're gonna hate you for buying.

03:00:00   - Right, you should not sell, the base model accord

03:00:04   should not have trouble accelerating up a hill.

03:00:06   You know, it may not go anywhere near as fast

03:00:09   as the tricked out high-end model,

03:00:11   but it's still, you shouldn't have trouble

03:00:13   with common things like driving up a hill.

03:00:16   - Yeah, it's just some baseline level,

03:00:18   and you don't wanna skimp and things like that,

03:00:20   especially the weird and esoteric,

03:00:21   and that you know as someone who knows the technology,

03:00:24   again, especially with spinning disk,

03:00:26   can have such a dramatic effect on performance.

03:00:28   There was nothing worse than early versions

03:00:29   of OS X swapping.

03:00:31   Like there was just nothing, it would just,

03:00:33   your performance would go off a giant cliff

03:00:35   and there was nothing you could do about it.

03:00:36   And even if you told people like,

03:00:37   we'll just run one application at a time or quit more apps,

03:00:40   and it was just like, this is not the way it should work.

03:00:42   And obviously you can't give all the RAM of the world

03:00:44   to every machine, but the rest of the industry

03:00:46   would slowly march up the minimum

03:00:48   and Apple would stubbornly stay at whatever number

03:00:50   they decided was the correct number

03:00:52   for just years past when they should.

03:00:55   - Yeah, and it's less excusable now than ever

03:00:57   'cause you know that they're getting the economies of scale

03:01:00   and that they can get the best prices.

03:01:02   - They're using the same components,

03:01:04   not like they have to get special RAM

03:01:05   for their special PowerPC chips or anything.

03:01:07   - Right, it's, you know, and like you even mentioned it

03:01:10   on ATP that there was a story that Apple's consuming

03:01:13   like 50% of the world's SSD storage.

03:01:16   - Or 25% of the NAND or whatever it was.

03:01:19   - Whatever it is, but it's, I'm sure that's true

03:01:22   and it's impressive, but it doesn't, you know,

03:01:24   they're not just buying it in an open market.

03:01:26   It's not like they're going they are they are a huge input into that market. They they influence the market

03:01:31   They're planning ahead of time for like they'll you know

03:01:33   Here's a few billion dollars build a factory because we're gonna ask you to buy the stuff for us

03:01:37   And you'll slowly pay off what we loan you for the fact like that's that's the way they do all their stuff, right?

03:01:41   So if they wanted to tell people a year ago, hey, we want to buy X million 32 gigabyte

03:01:46   Chips because that's what they were gonna put in the iPad air - they could have had it

03:01:52   Every every 16 every 16 gigabyte chip that they have could be a 32 gigabyte one if they had wanted it to be

03:01:58   Yeah, or maybe like two years ago

03:01:59   He's gonna lead time to like, you know

03:02:01   Tooling in fact or like but Apple again that type of thing Apple is in the position to do that and they do it all

03:02:06   The time they will they will pay

03:02:08   For the people to build the capacity that they're going to use to build their products and get the money back and so is it fine?

03:02:13   They probably did it with Taiwan semiconductor to do the the a8

03:02:17   I'm sure Apple was paying billions and millions of dollars to make that happen

03:02:21   Yeah, I think that a lot of these decisions are made two years in advance

03:02:26   But I think if they wanted to go 16 to 32 baseline, that's the type of change

03:02:31   They could make a little bit because it's not that not that far

03:02:34   You just look at the Android phones, right?

03:02:35   A lot of Android phones sell a lot of them sell with you know this much flash and I'm like again, you know

03:02:41   I discounted the SD card slots and everything like that

03:02:43   It's not so far outside the realm that if anything would be outside the realm

03:02:46   It would be like these crazy super retina

03:02:49   iMac displays that are probably in short supply and that one you really can say look you know no matter how much you pay we're

03:02:54   Just barely able to make these now

03:02:55   But right 16 to 32 that is old tech

03:02:58   Androids been shipping with it for years and years and lots of phones so is it within reach yeah

03:03:03   Alright, let's call it a show

03:03:05   Anybody I can't imagine that there's anybody who listened to this episode who has not already read your review

03:03:11   But if or pretended to read it or pretended to read it, but if you haven't you should

03:03:16   You can do it the right way. The right way is to read it on the website

03:03:20   That's the canonical version, but I bought a copy for iBooks anyway, because I wanted it to be a bestseller

03:03:24   Yeah, you got a long way to go to make up for how many shirts I bought from you

03:03:28   My ebooks are cheap man, it's not $30 for one of these books

03:03:34   Buy copies for your whole family. Great. Great Christmas gift idea, right? Don't don't use family sharing just buy a copy for everybody

03:03:41   Kids will love it

03:03:44   Always a pleasure. I don't know. It's funny because now we have a mini tradition of you coming on after your your

03:03:50   You know, you'd never ask me on any other time. So now you're gonna have to

03:03:54   Actually think of some other reasons to talk to me

03:03:56   I'm gonna have to think of another reason you should have had me on the to argue with you about file name extensions

03:04:00   So the other Canadian guy, oh god, well that we wouldn't had an argument

03:04:03   Would we know but I would I felt like that was a case where I heard you were on my side of the debate

03:04:11   And I felt like I could have done a better job. Yeah fending off that foreigner

03:04:14   Yeah, anytime we get into an argument about metadata. I'm going to word it far less

03:04:21   Eloquently as you there were some stronger arguments that you could have deployed anyway

03:04:25   I'll be on the podcast with that Joker sometime. We'll have it out

03:04:28   That's what you get I mean, that's what you get when you're from Canada