The Talk Show

97: ‘Copious Software Projects’ With Guy English


00:00:00   Hey man, how's the game?

00:00:01   - Well, you know, it's funny watching baseball

00:00:04   when you don't really have a vested interest

00:00:06   in any of the particular teams.

00:00:07   And then I get like, I develop a little mini interest

00:00:10   in one of the teams and, you know, it's like,

00:00:14   I don't know, it's how it was,

00:00:15   we were talking about it during the World Cup

00:00:16   where like two teams who you don't really care about

00:00:19   start playing, and then one of them will do something

00:00:21   and it's like, that's my team.

00:00:23   And then you're like invested for like,

00:00:25   you're like a fan for an hour.

00:00:27   Yeah, until the duration is over and then

00:00:32   then this penalty kicks and you don't give a crap anymore.

00:00:35   Now, I became a

00:00:37   temporary fan of the Los Angeles Dodgers

00:00:41   simply because their manager is Don Mattingly who was on the Yankees

00:00:45   when I was growing up. He was my boyhood Yankee title.

00:00:48   That is a very you thing to do.

00:00:50   That is so arbitrary, it's crazy.

00:00:52   He was my favorite Yankee growing up.

00:00:54   He was awesome. I always loved him. Do you call the managers Yankees? Like, that's, if

00:00:59   you're in the organization. Oh, he was. Okay. I'm sorry. Yeah, he played first base. He

00:01:03   was an all star first baseman for the Yankees through the 80s. And then sort of a tragic

00:01:10   career where he's, he's, without doubt, the greatest New York Yankee who never won a World

00:01:16   Series, and not only never won a World Series, he never won a playoff series. He played right

00:01:22   after the Reggie Jackson era Yankees had won some World Series and then he played right through the

00:01:26   80s and the early 90s when the Yankees were actually pretty bad overall. He was like the

00:01:30   star player on a pretty bad team. And then in his last season and he got cut short he had a

00:01:36   relatively shorter career than most players. He had a bad back in 1995. From injury or just?

00:01:41   Yeah well just wear and tear. Yeah who knows. He kind of had a funny batting stance where he

00:01:46   squatted over maybe that contributed to it. But anyway he had a bad back so it was going to be

00:01:50   his last year and the Yankees made the playoffs for the first time in a long time and they lost a

00:01:55   Game five in a five-game series to the

00:01:58   The Seattle Mariners John Molts his team. That's not a real team

00:02:03   That's a Canadian team then he retired and then starting in 96 the Yankees won for the next five World Series

00:02:09   So it's sort of things. Yeah. Yeah, so he's sort of a tragic figure in my mind

00:02:15   And now he's managing the Dodgers and they yeah, but you know, he's still working in the field. That's

00:02:19   Right. Not everybody gets to do that, right? Well, no, that's true. No. And they just,

00:02:25   right before we started recording it, Los Angeles Dodgers were eliminated.

00:02:29   I just, yeah, it's like the cherry on his shit sundae, basically.

00:02:35   Yeah. And it was close. It was 3-2. Heartbreaker.

00:02:39   So you know what? You're turning me around on baseball a little bit.

00:02:41   Boy, the playoffs, playoff baseball is a different sport.

00:02:44   Yeah, playoff anything is great, but yeah.

00:02:47   Yeah, I could see how a lot of people someone who doesn't really get it would could get it same thing to me with with

00:02:52   The soccer where I'm not gonna really watch regular season soccer, but I'm into the World Cup now. Yeah good

00:02:58   Euro - it's probably gonna be exciting

00:03:01   You know, you still you're as weird because you're gonna have to pick something at random, right?

00:03:05   You're never gonna have a home team in the Euro, but right

00:03:09   But know what? I mean your conversation with Ben last week was great. I loved it

00:03:15   What I like about soccer is

00:03:17   that and

00:03:19   And it's kind of what you guys discussed. It's that eventually the scoreline doesn't matter. It's the stories that get told after the game

00:03:25   And you cover that a lot with Derek Jeter, right where you could both recount

00:03:31   crazy moves that he did and

00:03:34   You know not once did you ever

00:03:38   Really mentioned the scoreline, right?

00:03:41   And if you look at that sort of spreadsheet like, you know, here's the game reduced to numbers. It just doesn't it doesn't show up

00:03:47   It doesn't pop off the page. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like I call it when I'm dismissive of a static color the baseball stat

00:03:53   Right only because without context so much stuff is just completely pointless. Like there's really no reason to it and it I

00:04:00   Was adverse to baseball for many years probably still am

00:04:04   Because it seems to fetishize stats in a way because nothing else is going on

00:04:10   sometimes. Yeah, it lends itself to it too. It's the pace of the game too and it's a game that

00:04:17   lends itself to the keeping of innumerable statistics. And there's ways to show that

00:04:24   all sorts of those statistics correlate, at least in some way, to winning and losing. And so you

00:04:30   can, you know, it just lends itself to just elaborate, elaborate statistical analysis.

00:04:36   I know and that turned me off though because when you start telling stories about Derek

00:04:41   Jeter or whoever, I'm all into that. I love that kind of stuff. That's kind of why I like

00:04:47   soccer. I don't want to say heroism, but it's the ups and downs of individual players and

00:04:56   teams and that kind of thing that captures my attention.

00:05:00   Yeah. Bottom line for me, and I know every week there's always somebody out there saying,

00:05:05   I don't care about any sports at all, but the bottom line for me and it's the appeal and it's it fits right in with

00:05:10   You know and like take a guy like Jason snow. Yeah, who's a big baseball fan. He likes football to us football. Yeah

00:05:15   But you know obviously with all the incomparable stuff he does he consumes an enormous amount of

00:05:21   fiction narrative fiction

00:05:25   it to me a lot of sports fans or at least that like in my

00:05:29   Friend Matt's parlance stats versus story guys the story guys like me

00:05:33   we watch sports for the same reason we like to watch things like movies is there's drama,

00:05:39   but it's the weird thing with sports with a movie. Ostensibly, there's always going to be drama,

00:05:44   and there's always going to be a good ending and a good story. Sometimes a sports game is just

00:05:49   boring because one team jumps out eight nothing and it stays eight nothing and it's kind of,

00:05:53   well, that was kind of dull. So you can't fake it. And then all of a sudden, sometimes it's three

00:05:58   to two in the ninth inning and the bases are loaded and nobody's out. And you've got a

00:06:03   real story. And nobody, there's no one person like an author or a director who gets to decide

00:06:09   how it turns out based on what they think. You know, and it's that difference. It's that

00:06:13   realness. It's that sometimes it is, you know, it's going to end, you know, the good guys,

00:06:19   you know, meaning the team I'm rooting for, the good guys are going to lose. They're not

00:06:24   always going to win.

00:06:25   You know, I'm like this Dodgers manager.

00:06:27   Right.

00:06:28   Like a good guy.

00:06:29   Yeah.

00:06:30   Great guy.

00:06:31   Best nickname ever.

00:06:32   His nickname, literally, I swear to God, his nickname is Donnie Baseball.

00:06:35   Oh, God.

00:06:36   Okay.

00:06:37   This guy's aces.

00:06:38   I like this guy.

00:06:39   Right.

00:06:40   How does he really...

00:06:41   Donnie Baseball?

00:06:42   How does he get it?

00:06:43   Yeah.

00:06:44   That's crazy.

00:06:45   How did he get that nickname?

00:06:46   Just because he's like the baseball player's baseball player.

00:06:48   Really?

00:06:49   He's that kind of...

00:06:50   Okay.

00:06:51   Did you ever see it?

00:06:52   Yeah, I swear to God.

00:06:53   I Twittered it the other day.

00:06:54   who—there's a YouTube clip of it, like in a regular season game in 1985. There was

00:06:59   a foul ball, a big high pop-up going over into the stands, and he ran over to see if

00:07:03   he could catch it, and it went too far into the stands. He couldn't catch it. Meanwhile,

00:07:07   there's a kid in the front row eating a box of popcorn, and the kid had turned around

00:07:11   to look where the foul ball landed, and Mattingly just reaches over and takes a handful of popcorn

00:07:16   out of the kid's box.

00:07:17   I saw that, that is him.

00:07:18   And then he just—the kid turns around and is like, "Whoa, Don Mattingly just stole

00:07:22   my popcorn and then Mattingly just gives him like a little nod like thanks for popcorn kid

00:07:26   that's and it goes back to first base to finish the game that's awesome

00:07:29   right that's that's why he's donnie baseball uh yeah good because it like while playing at the

00:07:36   highest level he's also thinking well i could go for some popcorn that's that's perfect see stories

00:07:41   yeah right yeah that's see that's way better than what was batting average yeah who cares whatever

00:07:47   It doesn't matter.

00:07:48   Right.

00:07:49   But he took the popcorn.

00:07:50   Now that's--

00:07:50   Right.

00:07:51   That makes him cool to me.

00:07:53   I don't care what he--

00:07:54   He's on my fantasy team that--

00:07:56   Exactly.

00:07:57   He's immediately there.

00:07:58   Yeah.

00:07:58   Wow.

00:08:01   You want to talk non-sports?

00:08:03   If anybody's listening, stop, first of all.

00:08:06   Second, I'm not a sports guy, but I do enjoy stories.

00:08:11   Yeah, to me, that's just it, though.

00:08:13   It's a way of hopefully manufacturing some actual drama that's going to be,

00:08:18   it's going to come to a conclusion fair and square based on the athletic abilities of the people

00:08:25   involved. Well, not even fair and square if you got a dirty ref, which is like soccer half the time.

00:08:31   That's kind of part of the story. But even then it adds to the story.

00:08:36   Yes, I totally agree. And the other thing too about that to me, it makes sports appealing is that

00:08:42   It's the complaint that a lot of people have about sports is that well, it's pointless

00:08:46   Well, that's sort of what makes it it makes it exciting because you can get all invested in it and the team you're rooting for

00:08:52   and we're invested when lose and it's you know, it hurts and you're upset and you feel terrible for a day

00:08:59   But ultimately it's okay because it was just it's nothing. Yeah, you've only invested what you've

00:09:05   Emotionally put on the table right like right? This is something to change anybody's life, right?

00:09:11   Whereas unless you actually bet heavy which don't don't do that. That's bad

00:09:15   But whereas concentrating and obsessing over something that is even more dramatic

00:09:20   But but where the stakes are real like, you know the situation in the Middle East

00:09:25   Yes between Israel and Palestine or with this Isis outfit anything like that

00:09:31   But there's all sorts of incredibly exciting drama involved

00:09:37   Great stories to be told but the stakes are so real and it's it's real stuff

00:09:41   You can't you can't take it lightly and can't you know went when there's a big turn of events

00:09:45   You can't go. Well that was something but too bad II, you know, yeah, I know I totally agree. I think with sports

00:09:50   Win or lose in a way you can always laugh at yourself, right?

00:09:55   Like I can't believe I was so happy that this random team did this random thing or I can't believe that

00:10:01   It was so bummed out they that they lost

00:10:04   You know with real life stuff like like what you're talking about, right? You don't get the laughs because it's you know

00:10:10   People's lives on the line. It's like a real thing

00:10:13   Right, we can be happy that the Death Star got blown up because you know

00:10:17   The six billion people on the planet Alderaan weren't real people. Yeah, there wasn't actually a real Holocaust that happened

00:10:25   It was just something that was in a space movie

00:10:27   Yeah, like if you actually think about how horrible that movie is that there's a lot of dead people in there

00:10:33   It could be like the number one dead people movie, right?

00:10:37   There might have been more people killed in that movie than in any other movie ever filmed

00:10:41   I think that that's actually that's an interesting argument. I would almost certainly think that that it's okay

00:10:46   It's got to be close right? I mean, right if you assume we didn't know learn much about Alderaan

00:10:51   But let's assume it was roughly earth-like. Yeah, then five to six billion people on there

00:10:55   Right plus all of the people dead on the death star which has been dead gone into you

00:11:01   Yeah, plus the new mobile rebels killed, right?

00:11:05   Mix to mix Darth Vader seemed like a like a teddy bear. Yeah, cuz he only killed one person

00:11:11   Right bad. Yeah, he didn't have anything to do with firing that that's our that was all talking exactly. Yeah

00:11:17   Want to talk what people want to hear about yeah

00:11:25   You know what though? It's a good time before we get started on what people really want to hear about

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00:15:06   telling you it's it's I think whiskers takes all this I think whiskers probably

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00:15:11   No, you know, I heard that. I heard that they got a new cream. They have a lathering cream

00:15:17   instead of like the first cream that they have, which is the one I use. It doesn't really work up

00:15:22   a lather. It's just like... It's just a cream. It works great, but it doesn't like foam up.

00:15:26   So the new one... And that some people just... Yeah, some people just like it to foam up.

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00:15:32   but the bottle looks awesome. I have like an aftershave sort of thing to try tomorrow.

00:15:39   But it's great. I love it. And you know what? Besides the product, the packaging is incredible.

00:15:46   Just the way the delivery, the design, everything about it is just amazing. I would buy it. I don't

00:15:54   even care what's in the bottle. I feel bad. It's one of those things like Apple products where I

00:15:57   feel bad throwing the box out. Yeah, I keep my boxes until I get made fun of to the point

00:16:02   that it's like, no, I've really got to get rid of this thing. I still have my Mac Pro box. It's just

00:16:06   sitting there. No good reason. Anyway, so I don't know. We're what, 20 minutes in?

00:16:13   You want to get the show going? Yeah. Here's the big topic, I think, and I don't know where it'll

00:16:20   lead us when we get into the details, but it's this idea that you and I have been involved in

00:16:27   several of these threads this week on Twitter. A couple of other people have too. And I think

00:16:32   It's not that I'm hunting for people who agree with me, but I just there doesn't really see I found it very curious

00:16:37   that there was nobody arguing the other side which is more or less that a thesis that

00:16:42   Well, the two ways to pose it at least this year with iOS 8 and Yosemite Apple bit off more than it could chew

00:16:50   in terms of that how much it was going to do and ship and

00:16:54   It's the quality control is suffering therefore that they they tried to do too much by September when they had to ship

00:17:02   iOS 8 because the new iPhones needed iOS 8

00:17:05   And that this annual schedule there not that the annual schedule is necessarily too

00:17:11   too

00:17:13   Short a period but that they're trying to do too much in those annual schedules

00:17:17   And if they want to do that much between major releases

00:17:19   It has to be more than a year and if they want it to be a year they have to do less at a time

00:17:23   okay, so yeah, I've I

00:17:26   Don't know I was asked about this and I kind of disagreed with you

00:17:31   and

00:17:33   Stated like that I actually do agree with you because I think we probably think this similarly on a lot of these subjects

00:17:40   You can't keep making the giant leaps that each of these OSes take in this space of a year and

00:17:48   The reason for that is that you don't have a year to do it. You've got maybe four to five

00:17:54   Maybe six if you're lucky months

00:17:56   Yeah, you and you made this point on

00:18:00   It was a vector last week or debug it could I don't know

00:18:03   Whichever whichever but yeah explain but explain I thought this is

00:18:08   And I don't think that this I don't think people think this because people think like well

00:18:13   It's been a year since Iowa 7 came out. So why couldn't they do this in a year?

00:18:17   But explain right so that I mean the reason is and this is not just me. This is you know, I've talked to

00:18:21   Project managers and people inside Apple. So I actually know that this is pretty much the fact

00:18:29   Or the case I don't want to say fact because I can't prove it

00:18:31   The first few months are spent

00:18:36   Fixing the bugs that you did ship, right? That's the eight point zero one

00:18:41   And right and even it just clearly a panic and we should get back to you

00:18:44   But yeah, if you forget if you forget what it was like a year ago when I was seven for a ship

00:18:49   Don't worry about it

00:18:49   Just think about what what you must assume

00:18:51   People at Apple who work on iOS are doing right now today is they've got to be working on iOS 8 bugs

00:18:56   Have to be everybody knows it. Yeah. All right, so they're doing that now you should call that call that October November

00:19:02   Maybe even December. Yeah, so the iOS

00:19:04   8.0.1 bug hit 40 to 50 thousand people out of

00:19:10   What I understand to be like a 10 million

00:19:13   install base

00:19:16   Despite that being a low percentage that is a lot of people and it is it's bad mojo. It's it's bad news, right?

00:19:24   So yeah, and it's it's enough like and you know, it's you know, I've clearly this small sample

00:19:28   This is the definition of exactly but the day that that happened that the 8.01 day. I think it was a Wednesday

00:19:34   whatever day that week it was midday and

00:19:37   My pal Lee the the bartender, but oh man, I'm seeing London. Okay. Hey Lee

00:19:43   he

00:19:45   He was guest bartending at a Jose Garcia's restaurant here in Philadelphia

00:19:50   for a happy hour and invited me and Amy to come and so

00:19:54   Got got the kid taken care of it, you know five went out

00:19:59   They had a couple cocktails with Lee at a new place and he he sat us next to a guy and a guy

00:20:04   He sat us next to happened to be he was like are you John Gruber and I was and I don't get that much in

00:20:08   Philadelphia and I was like, I am and he ends up he's a big fan

00:20:10   He he's just an attorney it works in Philadelphia also a fan of hops in laundromat bricked his iPhone 6+ that day

00:20:19   Because he like came out he had like he had like court in the morning had lunch came out of lunch saw that

00:20:25   8.01 was out hit update and

00:20:28   by one o'clock his brand new iPhone 6 plus couldn't make phone calls, so

00:20:33   You know, I thought that was really interesting. I was like wow, I just you know met somebody who got hit by the bug

00:20:39   You know, so I was like seems to me like it's pretty prevalent

00:20:41   Forty to fifty thousand people again could have been a lot worse if it was everybody, right?

00:20:45   But I think the window is pretty small, right? It was right

00:20:48   I don't know how many hours it was posted for well, but it was weird though because I

00:20:53   it's one of those weird things about the way stuff propagates around the world with Apple and the

00:20:59   CD ends that they use where they were still I was still getting hearing from people on Twitter saying it like 4 in the afternoon

00:21:04   On Eastern Time that their iPhone was still offering it and they knew not to allow it

00:21:09   But if they didn't, you know hadn't been following the tech news of the day

00:21:13   They might have that it you know still hadn't been rescinded from at least their phones perspective

00:21:17   Yeah, and you know you have a pretty broad audience, but that is a tiny slice of Apple consumers, right?

00:21:24   So yeah, and I guess it kind of makes sense that that that would be the max

00:21:28   You know that something like that would be the number because if it was a hundred percent of people then it would have been caught

00:21:33   Yeah, it must whatever the circumstances were that made that that that that made this and I've still not seen anybody

00:21:40   Apparently it's a Delta update like if you just it's the Delta download from a specific version to screws it up

00:21:46   Apparently.

00:21:47   Yeah, but it must have been something like that because if it had affected everybody,

00:21:52   it never would have made it out of QA.

00:21:53   No.

00:21:54   If it only affected, I don't know, 5% for some reason, you know, if you have this, if

00:22:01   you have that, if you have this, then it breaks your phone.

00:22:05   Right.

00:22:06   It just wasn't in their testing matrix, I guess.

00:22:09   I think it was Business Insider that tried to name the – well, they did actually name

00:22:13   the QA manager.

00:22:14   No, it was Business Week.

00:22:15   I'm sorry. It's funny that I go to business insider. But yeah, okay, so business week.

00:22:23   Don't do that. That's horrible reporting. You're missing the story, and it's completely

00:22:27   pointless.

00:22:28   Yeah, that was a really… I thought that was so uncalled for.

00:22:31   It's just dumb. It's like when Jesus Diaz called out the guy that lost his iPhone 4

00:22:37   prototype.

00:22:38   Right.

00:22:39   And guess what? He says, "I'm going to call you out." Which is, again, a dick move.

00:22:44   It was even worse. I would say it was even worse.

00:22:47   Really?

00:22:48   Well, maybe not.

00:22:49   No, no.

00:22:50   Yeah, maybe not.

00:22:51   There was an entire piece based on who this guy was. There was no reason for that. This

00:22:52   poor kid—I'm calling him a kid, but whatever. He was 20-some-odd.

00:22:58   Made a genuinely honest mistake.

00:23:00   It was an honest mistake. People screw up. There was no need to rake him up with coals

00:23:04   and out him. At least focus on the phone that you got. You really don't need to do a piece

00:23:09   about the guy that goofed and lost it.

00:23:14   Yeah, I was gonna say that it was worse though, and I know worse is the wrong word

00:23:19   But I would say and the reason I was gonna say that though is at least with the kid who lost the iPhone

00:23:23   He really did lose the iPhone and what he was accused of having done is exactly what he did that he had

00:23:29   As an engineer he had access to pre-release

00:23:33   iPhone what was it the iPhone 4 to use in the wild for field testing and

00:23:38   left it at a

00:23:41   Bar restaurant well we don't know or it was lifted or it was lifted, but but you know but end of the day

00:23:47   It was not with him when he left right right which is exactly what happened nobody's that's not in dispute

00:23:52   Where is the first thing he did in the morning or is like calling and be like yeah?

00:23:57   Yo, I lost my iPhone so right yeah, right he did the right thing you know

00:24:01   But with the business week story naming the guy and as being responsible for this 801 update

00:24:06   And then further saying that he was on the QA team that he was the leader of the QA team

00:24:11   than Apple Maps. It's actually wrong though. Like, you know, I did the same thing as you.

00:24:18   I asked around and it ends, you know, the guy is responsible for some level of QA at Apple,

00:24:23   but nobody inside Apple that I talked to said that there's any sense that he like single-handedly

00:24:29   pulled the trigger or deserves that anybody other than the entire company deserves team credit for

00:24:35   the for the fiasco. If, you know, business week made it sound like one guy was like hitting a

00:24:40   button and saying it's ready to go.

00:24:42   It's uh, and his role, his role on maps was, had nothing to do with the maps data.

00:24:49   It was the maps app, which nobody, which I know for users, they don't have, uh, it

00:24:55   doesn't make a difference.

00:24:56   They don't see a difference between the data and the app.

00:24:59   Um, but anybody who's listening to this show knows, knows the difference.

00:25:03   Do you know what anybody reporting on technology for business week

00:25:06   should know the difference?

00:25:08   Right.

00:25:09   It's like being, you know, it's sort of like the difference between your email client and

00:25:17   what's in your emails, you know? It's like it's not your email client's fault if the emails are

00:25:22   full of junk. And the Maps app worked fine. It was just that it had bad data and, you know,

00:25:29   empty data that it was missing a lot of data, which he had nothing to do with. That wasn't

00:25:33   what he was QA. And yet there he is listed in Business Week as like, you know, and the

00:25:38   insinuation it wasn't quite directed but the only insinuation you could draw from

00:25:42   it is that was the worst thing though is that it was an insinuation and it wasn't

00:25:46   like putting all the wood behind the arrow like at least that would be a

00:25:52   thing this was just more like this was like backhanded gossipy stuff yeah and

00:25:57   it's like the insinuation as Apple has and you know at least one inept bozo

00:26:02   running you know doing a way who's who's still you know after he you know made a

00:26:07   terrible mistake with the maps is still bricking new iPhones. Which is so far, it's just way off,

00:26:13   basically. - Somebody buy that guy a beer, because he probably deserves it after this.

00:26:18   - I'll tell you, I don't think I've ever told this story publicly. I don't think, but I will.

00:26:24   The writer, at least one of the writers on that story, was Adam Satoriano. And

00:26:31   Adam sorta Rios a Toriano a couple years ago wrote a piece for business week on me yours truly John Gruber

00:26:38   Which I went along with

00:26:41   Half-heartedly, I did talk to him. I got thirsty bear when I was in San Francisco

00:26:45   That's your first mistake

00:26:48   That was daytime and I met with a colleague of his here in Philly for follow-up questions

00:26:53   And it was about what I do that the phenomenon of it was well

00:26:57   It was posed to me initially as that they were going to write a piece about the independent Mac

00:27:01   journalism web people like me and

00:27:05   Arnold Kim who founded Mac rumors and maybe Jim Dalrymple and other people like that

00:27:10   You know people who are covering Apple, but but as you know, either individuals like me or as new and you know

00:27:18   publications like the loop and make rumors

00:27:22   And it became very obvious to me as the

00:27:25   Interviews progressed that it was not going to be that that it was more just about me

00:27:30   Which I found uncomfortable and I encouraged them to not make it about me and make it about

00:27:35   All of us together of which I'm just one example

00:27:38   and

00:27:40   So I kind of and as it as that became clear to me I participated less and less

00:27:45   and you know, I don't think I wasn't rude and I didn't stop talking to them, but I

00:27:51   I stopped participating and they asked me to pose for a photograph and I refused.

00:27:57   That's awkward.

00:28:01   Well, but I've seen the photographs that they had published of others and they made people look

00:28:07   goofy like I told them this. So like, what's the guy's name? Gene Munster.

00:28:13   Yeah.

00:28:13   Who's famously the analyst.

00:28:15   TV.

00:28:15   Yeah.

00:28:17   I'm pulling for Gene, man. Love that guy.

00:28:19   So I haven't looked at this well, but see if you Google Gene Munster business. I think

00:28:26   it was Business Week, but it might have been Bloomberg. But Bloomberg owns Business Week.

00:28:32   Gene Munster says Apple is going to $1,000.

00:28:35   That might be it.

00:28:36   No, no. That's from 2012. I don't want to make too much fun of him because the stock

00:28:40   splits since then. So it's just very not fair. It's at $700 now if you don't get

00:28:46   the splits.

00:28:47   But that's it. That's app, but that's it. Look at the picture of him

00:28:50   Why would you do this to somebody?

00:28:52   Right. It's a very to me. I think a very flattering photo

00:28:57   I mean, I think he's goofy because of the TV stuff that he keeps bringing up, but this is that don't do that to him

00:29:03   He's smarter than that. Yeah

00:29:05   Clown yeah

00:29:09   Yeah

00:29:10   And and I've seen other publications do this and I can also I and so I wanted nothing to do with it

00:29:16   And you don't get to approve it.

00:29:19   It's not like if they shoot 20 photos of me, I get to then pick which one they can use.

00:29:23   They're all theirs.

00:29:24   >> Yeah.

00:29:24   >> You agreed to let them do it.

00:29:25   And I wanted nothing to do with that.

00:29:26   Nor would I allow them to use any of the photos I have of me.

00:29:30   So they -- I think if you look at the profile they had of me, if you Google it, they found like a,

00:29:35   I don't know, a third-party photo, like a Creative Commons thing from Flickr or something.

00:29:40   >> Yeah.

00:29:40   But anyway, the main point though is that there were then – then towards the end,

00:29:49   they came out and asked the question I knew that they were going to ask which is, "How

00:29:52   much money do you make?"

00:29:54   And I said to Adam Satoriano on the record, I said, "I don't know.

00:29:59   I don't keep track."

00:30:00   And he paused and he said, "Really?"

00:30:05   And I said, "Really, I don't keep track."

00:30:08   And I said, "Off the record?"

00:30:09   He said what I said that what you do what I just told you is what you can quote me on

00:30:13   You can quote the world in business week. I don't know. I don't keep track

00:30:16   And other than that, I'm not gonna talk about it

00:30:20   And he'd you know, he was like so I could run that I said sure

00:30:25   I would love it if you ran that I still wish he had right but instead

00:30:27   When the thing came out it said like Gruber wouldn't discuss it

00:30:31   But somebody familiar with his finances who can't be with hell I swear to God

00:30:39   because he doesn't have permission, pegged his income at, I don't know what it was, $400,000.

00:30:46   Well, you have a big organization, so I mean, God knows who leaked that.

00:30:49   Right. Well, here's the thing that made me so mad about that. I called Adam on it privately,

00:30:54   I didn't, not publicly, because I didn't want to bring it up because…

00:30:56   Until now.

00:30:57   Well, I feel like on the talk show, maybe I can do it and it won't be in print. But I said,

00:31:02   I know that it's bullshit. I know that it's bullshit, because there's literally only three

00:31:06   people on the planet who have any familiarity with my finances at all

00:31:10   that's me my wife and my accountant and I guess maybe if there's a fourth it

00:31:16   would be somebody at the IRS who handles the tax return that my accountant

00:31:22   submits but even then I doubt that there's anybody who remembers my name I

00:31:25   presume that those things are completely automated robots forget it yeah it's

00:31:29   just robots so there's literally only three people on the planet and I know

00:31:32   know for a fact that he didn't speak to so so Amy didn't rat you out no and I

00:31:38   don't pay phone on the corner and like privately like right so what I presume

00:31:44   that it I don't think he made it up I presume that what he did is he found one

00:31:47   person who sponsored my site and asked you know what did you pay for the

00:31:52   sponsorship and multiplied it or something like that I don't know but

00:31:56   there's no way that that would quality you present rates on your website right

00:32:00   Right, but the description...

00:32:02   But that's not what he said though.

00:32:04   The description he used in print in Business Week is absolutely incompatible with any way that he could have come up with the number.

00:32:11   Yeah.

00:32:12   I thought that was so telling about...

00:32:14   Well, you know what? It's like, "Hey kid, get me a coffee. Go to this website. Find me this number. Multiply it by 12."

00:32:20   Right.

00:32:21   It's just dumb. It's just... Anyway.

00:32:23   Right. But I feel like it's dishonest. I feel like if that's what he did, then he should have said in print, you know,

00:32:28   should have spelled that out just like you did in print and said as a ballpark estimate. There you go.

00:32:33   Yeah.

00:32:34   No, but what he said was that somebody familiar with my finances who didn't have,

00:32:38   which it made me mad in two ways because the first way is that I know it's not true,

00:32:44   but the second way is that insinuates that there's somebody who's close to me who betrayed me,

00:32:48   which is even more angering.

00:32:51   Yeah, that, yeah, I hadn't even thought of it like that. Yeah.

00:32:57   That was like my secondary reaction. And in fact, that actually bothered me even more.

00:33:01   That somebody that I would share my finances with somebody and that they would blab

00:33:06   off the record to Adam Santoriano at Business Week, which didn't happen.

00:33:09   Why would you? Right. Yeah.

00:33:11   So, it always and I always file that in my head whenever I see. I've never,

00:33:16   I've always been a little bit skeptical of any unnamed sources in anything I read online. But

00:33:21   after that I'm even more so when I see information attributed to people familiar with the matter.

00:33:27   Yeah, you have to. Right.

00:33:30   I yeah, I agree with you. I've rejected that intellectually, but

00:33:35   this is like a visceral rejection, you know, like just being your pal. I know that no, that's

00:33:43   nobody would do that. I don't understand. Yeah, I am not a fan of Adam Zatorianos work.

00:33:51   So we outed this guy at QA and I think that was a, that was a hack job and

00:33:55   whatever.

00:33:57   Pointless.

00:33:59   We got way off track cause I was telling you why, uh, putting out an OS every year

00:34:05   is kind of a pain in the ass.

00:34:06   Right.

00:34:07   At least three months after the OS comes out, you're fixing bugs.

00:34:10   Minimum, you know, and you know, during that time, hopefully the management is,

00:34:15   uh, trying to discern which are the major features that are going to be able to

00:34:20   make it into the next release.

00:34:21   And then you've got maybe between, if you're lucky, three to six months to implement them, if you're lucky.

00:34:32   More or less squeezing it in for WWDC. I don't know what's the December/January timeline for it.

00:34:42   Last year, 7.1 didn't come out until March.

00:34:46   Yeah. But I figured just as a rough timeline that through December it was mostly heads down on fixing stuff and doing stuff for 7.1.

00:34:55   January and February I'm sure a lot of resources started going towards iOS 8. But some was still finishing the final touches on 7.1.

00:35:04   Yeah. But then roughly, you know, up until June you're trying to get the first working version of new stuff done for the next version of the OS.

00:35:13   Right. I mean, yeah, so I'm hesitant to peg months to certain phases.

00:35:22   Right.

00:35:23   Because, you know, I think that's fluid, but, you know, the general process is that you'll get, if you're lucky, three to six months to actually implement stuff.

00:35:33   implement stuff and the rest of the time, at the end, you will be fixing everything

00:35:39   that you find after you have released it as a beta, which is what WWDC is, right?

00:35:45   Right.

00:35:46   And so that means that any one given release has really only had, if you're lucky, three

00:35:54   to six months of actual development time in terms of implementing new features, which

00:36:00   is…

00:36:01   Yeah, like creating.

00:36:02   Creating.

00:36:03   creative phase of software development.

00:36:05   That's the best way of putting it. Yes, I totally agree.

00:36:07   And so having this yearly schedule

00:36:11   becomes onerous if you keep trying to

00:36:15   bite off giant portions

00:36:19   of the pie. If you know what

00:36:23   you want to build, and I believe that Apple probably has a road line that goes out

00:36:27   a couple of versions at least, or at least they have aspirations,

00:36:31   You're doing so only in chunks of three to six months of pure creative engineering.

00:36:40   The rest of the time is dealing with the bugs you created in the previous version

00:36:45   and the bugs that you're fixing in order to get the current version out the door.

00:36:49   And I think ultimately what they want to get out the door may be running up against the limits of what they can achieve in that time frame.

00:37:04   Yeah, I totally agree with that.

00:37:07   And I think they've compounded the problem.

00:37:09   I mean, this all sounds very negative, but I mean, they've got Mac OS X, they've got iOS, and now they've got the watch OS.

00:37:17   All of them increasingly have to work together.

00:37:20   That's...

00:37:23   Stuff's going to take time. I think maybe...

00:37:26   I think there will be difficulties down the road trying to iron all of this stuff out.

00:37:32   There's a lot of... I don't know if bootstrapping is quite the right word,

00:37:36   but it's almost like gear fitting,

00:37:39   where, you know, with the way that these things are integrated with each other,

00:37:43   which is great and which is the way to go

00:37:46   and which is better than the way that everything

00:37:48   used to be a lot more siloed from Apple.

00:37:51   But the fact that it's all geared together

00:37:55   creates these weird hiccups

00:37:57   when one of the gears isn't ready yet, right?

00:37:59   Like, I mean, just one example,

00:38:02   but I think it's a major one,

00:38:03   is the photo situation with iOS.

00:38:06   - Right, totally.

00:38:07   - Where are your photos and where are they,

00:38:10   how many are backed up and the ones that are,

00:38:11   you know, to the iCloud and the fact,

00:38:15   I mean, they're not even trying it with the, even when Yosemite ships, the new Mac photo stuff, they've already said, they said back at WWDC that that wasn't coming till 2015.

00:38:25   Yeah.

00:38:25   You know, in terms of having the Mac be a full client towards this new iCloud centric look.

00:38:32   Yeah.

00:38:32   And I, I, I heard it suggested that they were doing it in Swift and they, it, it's not, it just takes that long to do that kind of app.

00:38:41   Right.

00:38:43   And that they know that because they do have some experience with,

00:38:47   and it's always hard to estimate exactly, it's impossible to estimate exactly how long software is going to take to write.

00:38:53   But they know how long it took to write iPhoto and they know how long it took to write Aputure.

00:38:57   And they know how long a major update to Aputure took and how long a major update to iPhoto took.

00:39:01   And they knew that what they were undertaking with this is, you know, in that scope.

00:39:05   And they know that, you know, that's a nine, 10 months away thing.

00:39:08   But it's such a big hole in the process.

00:39:13   in the overall experience right now that nobody quite knows where their photos are and how

00:39:20   to make sure that they're everywhere.

00:39:23   Yeah, I think they're lucky that they're ahead. Not lucky, they worked hard. They're ahead.

00:39:30   This kind of weird little, as you describe it, the cogs not maybe meeting up exactly

00:39:35   and there's a little bit of grind. I think that's expected. And I don't think it's necessarily

00:39:42   cause for alarm but I think institutionally they're gonna have to

00:39:47   sort of adapt to this kind of interconnected stuff that they're

00:39:51   committing to and again you mentioned this on your show last week and I think

00:39:57   it's another point I took a note that it's worth pointing out and just saying

00:40:00   it like hey look we're literally armchair quarterbacks here we're just

00:40:04   two guys you know yeah I think I said that not a joke yeah we're just two guys

00:40:10   You know observing from across the continent and inside Apple their leadership is running a hundred billion dollar a year

00:40:17   Corporation. Yes, you know and we're not

00:40:21   I'm not trying to tell them I know better. No, no, I'm just listen to me. Just keep doing good stuff

00:40:26   Don't write like yeah

00:40:28   but I'm just saying though as an observer if we want to just take a step back and look at the state that that

00:40:34   The whole software ecosystem is across the Apple board right now. It's not good right now in September October

00:40:40   2014 rough spot. Yeah. Yeah and last year was very similar

00:40:45   Yeah, I thought yeah, I mean last year last year I think a lot of us chalk chalked it up to well

00:40:53   It was seven seventy to change it forced all being gone, right?

00:40:56   So that's going to be boot the process and they didn't really have that much time

00:41:00   Right that and that those of us who know how long stuff takes were still and still to this day

00:41:05   I'm kind of in awe that they shipped iOS 7 as

00:41:08   Even though as rough as it was in as short a time as they did. Yeah, no one should not have happened

00:41:13   Right knowing that it really didn't start until after four stalls out stirred, you know late and late in the year

00:41:19   2012 well, I think some of the technical underpinnings did but certainly the redesign was new

00:41:26   Yeah, and some of the noodlings of the design had started

00:41:29   Yeah, but but as a look we're going to actually do this and we actually need to take this style of design and apply it

00:41:36   To everything top to bottom

00:41:38   didn't start until the forestall ouster and

00:41:42   rejigging of the you know

00:41:45   John putting Johnny I've in front of in charge of all design software and hardware a job in

00:41:50   putting

00:41:52   What's his name in charge of software engineering

00:41:57   Mr. The hair. Yeah

00:42:00   Craig Federighi. Yeah, Federighi in charge of you know, the engineering

00:42:05   That's incredible timeframe

00:42:07   And so we I think we we as like observers and critics of the company

00:42:12   We're willing to grant a little bit more grace last year with Iowa seven bugginess until Iowa seven one

00:42:17   Whereas this year it doesn't really seem it seems like an own goal like a for an unforced error. Yeah, they didn't necessarily

00:42:26   Double right devil sports metaphor. Yeah, double sports matter. I'll go on for Sarah. I'll take our own goal

00:42:31   Oh goal is a little war is too drastic

00:42:33   It's yeah

00:42:34   It's more like an unforced error that they didn't quite have to do as much of this as they needed to all at once

00:42:38   They didn't have to do third-party keyboards

00:42:40   right now

00:42:42   Right. Well, didn't they I mean, I don't know I don't personally know

00:42:48   I don't think so. I'm probably not gonna use a lot of those keyboards

00:42:51   I just don't think they needed to do it yet, you know, I mean I think in hind, you know

00:42:55   But again, but you know, wait, you know the press better than tonight you

00:42:59   Do you think that would have been called out

00:43:02   Iowa still does not support swipe which yeah, I think so. I do think I do think that there was you know,

00:43:10   There's this weird. I mean the news cycle is always screwed up right like the bending phones

00:43:15   Yeah, I do think that you know that I firmly believe I've said this for years and I think I think it you know

00:43:22   People I say you can kind of tell like just shiller alone is not he's not just there to do ads

00:43:28   You know that no, no, it's not like marketing. I think it's a bad rap and there might be some companies that do it this way

00:43:35   But that you know, somebody creates the product does in certain type the company designs

00:43:41   Whatever it is and engineers make it and it becomes real and then it's finished and then they hand it to marketing and they say now

00:43:46   Sell it

00:43:47   That's not how

00:43:49   marketing works at Apple and it's not how it works at most companies.

00:43:51   Marketing is just describing what the product is and marketing is part of the design process of making sure that it fills a need and that it's going to sell before it's made.

00:44:02   You know, it's...

00:44:03   Yeah, I mean, I was just talking to Neaton Conatra and Don Melton yesterday, I guess I'm going to name-jaw.

00:44:10   And I mean, they were both, they're both been in meetings with Phil.

00:44:15   Right.

00:44:16   And no, it's very much part of the design process.

00:44:19   Like this is not working the way I'd like it to work.

00:44:21   Go make it work better.

00:44:24   Like this is failing me in these kinds of ways.

00:44:26   It's it's, it's part of the process.

00:44:28   Like they're, they're built in from the beginning.

00:44:30   And then at the end of the process, when it is time to come up with actual slogans

00:44:34   and the billboards and here's the way we're going to present it on stage at the

00:44:39   intro event, you're just, they're just describing what it actually is.

00:44:43   Right.

00:44:44   Yeah.

00:44:44   And I think that's very, very true of almost all Apple products is that the marketing really is pretty apt. It's well, you know

00:44:52   why I think because

00:44:53   Marketing has been and marketing is a horrible word. I wish I wish there was a better word for it because it's it's been stained too

00:45:00   Often yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's not inherently

00:45:03   Bad word and now but from like a geek culture. It's like

00:45:07   It's like lie to people. No. No, it's not always that I

00:45:13   Had the same conversation this week on Twitter with anil - and Gina tripani at think up

00:45:18   They were the sponsors of daring fireball last week and that they're there think up thing

00:45:22   They described as social network analytics and on Twitter or even in my write-up on during fireball

00:45:27   I said look analytics is a sullied word. Yeah, don't think of it that way

00:45:30   it's just useful information about you that you would want to know and it's not like for douchebags and

00:45:36   Anil even said that it's like internally like then he knows they couldn't say it

00:45:41   but that he thought of a slogan like it's social analytics,

00:45:44   but we swear it's not douchey.

00:45:46   Because it's, and again, there's nothing inherently wrong

00:45:49   with the word analytics, technically, literally,

00:45:51   by the definition, that is what ThinkUp does.

00:45:53   - I agree.

00:45:54   - And that is what, you know, marketing is, you know,

00:45:56   it is what it says it is,

00:45:58   but the word has just taken on a bad connotation

00:46:01   over the years. - Oh, totally.

00:46:01   Yeah, no, that's great advice.

00:46:04   - Right. - A couple smart people too.

00:46:05   Sorry. - And I totally understand

00:46:07   that one of the marketing stamps for iOS 8 this year,

00:46:11   Well, not just iOS 8 it goes hand in hand with the fact that the iPhones 6 or bigger is

00:46:16   It's the shut up about Android year, right? Right like like like or

00:46:21   maybe that's a bad way to put it, but it's the

00:46:24   Here's the things that here here's the the reasonable reasons that somebody might choose Android over iPhone

00:46:33   Here will will give you our answer on them, right? So you like bigger phones totally reasonable

00:46:40   Okay, now we have bigger phones

00:46:42   You like third-party keyboards? Okay. Now we have third-party keyboards you like sharing information directly between applications and you know

00:46:50   Doing that, you know and it is it's all the big highlight

00:46:54   Most of the big highlight features are these sort of things that Android had gotten to first

00:46:59   Yeah, okay, even Windows Phone have

00:47:02   You know taking a bite out of that stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I think Windows Phone with the sharing between applications was

00:47:10   you know, yeah, I I know Android had some stuff first, but I thought the way that Windows did it was was more of a

00:47:16   Oddly enough it was closer to Apple. Yeah, it was a lot more like yeah apples well services and Mac OS X. Yeah, you know

00:47:25   It's just taken Apple

00:47:27   You know all these literally decades to get back around to services from a you know

00:47:33   Why so forced all stomped on the idea of services in iOS iOS. Oh, I didn't know that

00:47:39   Yeah, you didn't know that because you haven't heard the show yet.

00:47:41   Neaton was just talking about it yesterday.

00:47:44   Ooh, ouch.

00:47:46   Well, not ouch.

00:47:48   It was because if every single app that exposed the service as OS X does,

00:47:53   you just haven't looked at the completely unwieldy services menu.

00:47:57   Oh, yeah. Well, that's a great point.

00:47:59   Oh, I see. I see. Services as we knew them.

00:48:02   Literally, because I mean,

00:48:04   they have a pace board server in iOS.

00:48:06   Like it, iOS works incredibly similarly to the way the Mac does.

00:48:12   Yeah.

00:48:12   Uh, if you know how to implement services, um, it's really pretty basic.

00:48:17   It's like something goes on a pace board, not the, not the one that you copy and paste into, but a separate one.

00:48:22   Another app can then is invoked and it pulls something off that pace board.

00:48:28   It does something with it and it pastes it, copies it back up to the pace board.

00:48:33   And then the app that you called it from just takes that from the

00:48:36   baseboard and puts it in the app.

00:48:37   It is, if you can do copy and paste, you can do services.

00:48:41   Yeah.

00:48:42   And it's just a very basic little specification of here's the data type.

00:48:45   Here's the standard data types for services.

00:48:48   And here are the ones I'm interested in.

00:48:50   It's dead simple.

00:48:50   Me as a service, I might only be interested in text.

00:48:54   Yeah.

00:48:54   So don't even bother with me if the selection is something else.

00:48:57   It's dead simple.

00:48:58   And the idea got, well, it, they didn't want to put it into iOS

00:49:02   because the, the model, the interaction model would just eventually become

00:49:08   cumbersome with so many applications.

00:49:09   Well, and you can see it, you can see it on Mac OS X, if you have enough third

00:49:12   party apps and stuff.

00:49:13   Yeah, it's already seen it and nobody looks at that menu.

00:49:15   I mean, you and I do, and maybe some portion of your listeners, but.

00:49:18   It's a power user feature.

00:49:20   It definitely is.

00:49:21   And it's always been, and will always be, unless they totally

00:49:25   revolutionize it, like, like with extensions.

00:49:27   Yeah.

00:49:27   I mean, so my app implements a couple of services.

00:49:30   I imagine if you know, when you ship Vesper for the Mac, I imagine you'll have a service.

00:49:35   Right.

00:49:36   Uh, I think you'd be surprised at how few people use it, but it kind of needs to be there just cause.

00:49:44   The people who do use it will definitely want to put it in their workplace.

00:49:47   Yes.

00:49:47   Cause we appreciate these kinds of people.

00:49:48   And you can go into, and it's so weird.

00:49:52   It's like, you'd never think to look there.

00:49:53   You have to go to system preferences on the Mac system preferences, keyboards.

00:49:59   shortcuts, services, and there you get a list of all of the services from all the apps you have installed, and then you can turn off the ones you don't use.

00:50:11   And it's so, like, who would ever think that you would go there to manage the system services, to go keyboard shortcuts services? It's just such a weird hidden place.

00:50:21   And it is a giant list, too. It's kind of crazy.

00:50:24   Yeah, and it's also a mess too because the service can specify its own keyboard shortcut

00:50:28   But there's nothing that stops two services conflicting. Yeah, people shortcuts and there's no good

00:50:34   No good way to resolve that I don't even know what the rules are like one of them somehow wins

00:50:40   I don't know if it's the first one to claim it or the last one to claim it

00:50:43   But one of them wins but it's not not because you the user if you can't order the first or last one. So it's

00:50:50   I would imagine it's the last one that the system notices and registers, but completely arbitrary. Anyway, so long story short,

00:50:57   yeah, the idea of services got nixed in iOS and...

00:51:02   I thought you meant when I when I when I tooth sucked before and said ouch,

00:51:07   I thought you meant the idea of like extensions for iOS. No, no, no. You're saying certain literally services.

00:51:15   Right. Yeah. Well, that makes sense and that's forced all at his best. I think so, too.

00:51:19   And I imagine this part will make the show. We're gonna have to edit that because I think

00:51:26   I think some stuff got said that probably shouldn't have got said or at least publicly.

00:51:32   I think that that was forced all at his best because he's an old next guy and

00:51:39   services were kind of a feather in the cap of the next system and for him to be like no screw this

00:51:46   We really don't want to go down this rabbit hole

00:51:48   Yeah, and I think he was I think he had his eyes open enough to see that it didn't play out well on Mac OS X

00:51:54   and I think part of the reason it didn't play out as well on Mac OS X as next is

00:51:59   That next never really had a lot of developers

00:52:02   They had like some and some the ones that they had even the third-party ones were amazing, right?

00:52:08   The Omni group is still around the Omni group started right, you know, they were the you know

00:52:12   fantastic company

00:52:15   But there weren't you know people with next computers were never complaining about how long their services menu was because all the apps were

00:52:21   Providing all these services that didn't have that many apps. That is exactly what he said. He's like

00:52:26   There's like five apps out there. Don't worry about it. It's not an issue

00:52:32   Try it on an iPhone. It's like oh my god

00:52:35   I'm gonna be scrolling for like three weeks trying to figure out like where the service is that they want

00:52:40   Right like I when I upgraded to iOS 8

00:52:43   I took the time and like deleted all the apps that I hadn't used and I

00:52:47   Figured if I haven't used it in a more than a month just delete it

00:52:49   And if I really ever want it back I can just go to the App Store and get it back

00:52:53   I wish I had I've got some man and I still have so many apps

00:52:56   I you know and there's some I haven't used it, but I still I like that game

00:53:00   So maybe I'll keep it. But anyway, I still have so many apps

00:53:03   I can't even imagine how long my services menu would be. Yeah. Well, I mean I imagine you just install apps to try them, right?

00:53:08   Yeah, and I do the same thing like and it's a lot easier to just leave them around than it's exactly I just can't be bothered

00:53:14   I literally have grind around my app and I'm a straight male. So I don't know

00:53:18   It's like every now and then somebody notices. I'm like I just I I needed to see what the UI was

00:53:26   Cuz people were talking about this app all the time

00:53:28   Just just in case

00:53:31   Curious, who knows maybe I'll get drunk. I don't know. Yeah

00:53:36   I've got I've got tinder to which else whenever is

00:53:39   It's just awkward. There's I've got period trackers to like there is absolutely phone that I cannot explain to anybody except that like

00:53:47   Somebody told me it was a good app to just see this kind of particular interaction with something. Okay, I'll buy it and try it out

00:53:54   Yeah, whiskers, and I do that a lot

00:53:56   Just if one of us spots an app that has an interesting interaction. We'll buy the app just just just to see like a good

00:54:04   Oh, you should see the way that you can reorder lists in this app. You don't have to hit edit first. You just do this

00:54:12   We're down to think yeah, like what like a long press and that you reorder. Yeah

00:54:16   Yeah, yeah, and then but like what the app actually does something that's yeah, who cares what it is, right?

00:54:20   It's it's like yeah might be managing your you know, your glucose levels for diabetes. I don't have diabetes. Yeah

00:54:26   Something like that. Anyway, let's take a break. I'll thank our second sponsor

00:54:33   grinder

00:54:35   No, no not grinder now grand is awesome, I mean, you know, yeah, but it's not our sponsor

00:54:41   It is back place our good friends at back place

00:54:44   I have a great story to tell this is amazing. This is

00:54:47   We are recording on Tuesday, October 7th last night Monday, October 6th my main Mac

00:54:59   Fan was on real loud at my desk. My wife was gonna record her podcast

00:55:03   And you know what and I checked the uptime and it was like 14 days

00:55:07   I was like, that's a long time to run at this thing

00:55:09   I'll just restart so I restarted the Mac and to let it sit at that login screen and

00:55:14   Just shut up and let the fan go off

00:55:17   So when she record she records at my desk because that's where the microphone is

00:55:20   And she recorded her podcast

00:55:23   Just the tip with the pork facets good podcast

00:55:28   PK I came back after watching the baseball game and I wanted to get my computer

00:55:33   You know restart and get it Safari back on ended up wouldn't restart

00:55:36   I thought oh and I look and I like hit the power button held the power button shut down and

00:55:42   Held the power button again, and I heard a little something starting up and a light came on

00:55:46   But it never even got to the startup time

00:55:48   Which is a very bad sign if this do you know if you don't hear that bong when you start your math

00:55:54   You don't get past the post. That's a

00:55:57   Very you could you should bet money that you have a logic board problem

00:56:00   and

00:56:03   I thought

00:56:05   And then I thought you know what I know I'm backed up I know I'm backed up so there's you know worst-case scenario

00:56:11   All I've got to do is just wait and restore from backup. I haven't lost anything

00:56:15   I'm backed up in a couple ways

00:56:18   But one of the ways I'm backed up and I know I'm backed up is through back place which is online

00:56:23   backup that runs in the background and it's actually the one that gives me the most peace

00:56:27   of mind because it's the one that I don't have to do anything about and I literally this is what I

00:56:31   did is I didn't try to resuscitate the Mac it was late at night and I thought I'll worry about this

00:56:34   in the morning I just went to a different machine could have been my iPhone could have been another

00:56:39   Mac doesn't matter you just log into backblaze I logged into my backblaze account and just looked

00:56:43   and it said that I was backed up as of like 8 p.m last night and I was like oh I'm all set

00:56:49   What is back plays back up it backs up everything on your Mac everything if you have external hard drives it backs those up to

00:56:57   What's the limit on space? It's unlimited. You just pay five dollars a month and everything on your Mac gets backed up

00:57:04   What's the catch there is no catch if there's if there's technically a catch it's that the five dollars a month

00:57:10   Which is incredibly low is per Mac

00:57:13   But that per Mac cost is everything on the Mac including the external drives

00:57:18   I if I didn't have back plays I have no idea

00:57:21   I either we've been up all night trying to restore or resuscitate the drive opening the case trying to take the SSD out and put

00:57:26   it in a

00:57:28   Another case and putting it in stayed up all night doing stuff like that

00:57:32   All I did is just log in my back place account. I knew I was backed up

00:57:36   Nothing to worry about

00:57:39   Can't say enough

00:57:41   What a great feeling that is

00:57:43   You just here's what you do to sign up go to back blaze comm slash daring fireball back blaze bla

00:57:50   Z.com slash daring fireball they know you come from the show that way

00:57:54   You get a 14-day free trial no credit card up front. Just do that install their software on your Mac

00:58:02   Set up an account use the 14 days. It might take a while for all of your stuff to get up upstream through the cloud

00:58:10   Do that in the first 14 days see how it works

00:58:13   See how it's just once you have it set up it just runs you don't do anything

00:58:17   You don't have to remember once a day to hit the back place button and do an upload

00:58:20   It just uploads as it sees that you need to incrementally

00:58:24   Can't say enough. I mean here I am testimony to it

00:58:28   Broken Mac nothing lost camp couldn't be easier. So my thanks to

00:58:34   Back place go get them. Don't be a dummy who's not backed up

00:58:39   That's great. I mean just honestly we had to deliver show because you're Microsoft bust up. Yeah

00:58:44   I'm glad it worked out. Yeah, I

00:58:47   The best thing about I'm telling the best thing about it. You don't have to remember anything to do it

00:58:51   Yeah, I know. I don't trust myself either

00:58:53   Which is a testament to backless, I don't really like it, you know, I'm never gonna

00:58:58   If I intentionally have to think about backing up, but I'm gonna screw it up sometime. Yeah, it's not really backup

00:59:05   I think somebody argued with me once and I agree with it that if if your backup system is something you have to invoke manually

00:59:11   That's not a backup system. It's

00:59:13   Smart, it's smart. You know, it's something you've got clones of your data

00:59:17   It's worth doing I use super duper like that the third part, you know external drives, but it's

00:59:24   It's not really backed up backed up is when something hits unexpectedly and then I go and check and I'm backed up from the last

00:59:31   Moment, I remember sitting at my computer, right?

00:59:34   Well, I think, you know, I think that's what Time Machine tries to address and I think

00:59:39   that that's what Backblaze does in spades, right?

00:59:42   Yeah.

00:59:43   Yeah, Time Machine is a great solution too.

00:59:44   I'd say do them all.

00:59:45   Do, you know, there's no way you could be more backed up.

00:59:48   Yeah.

00:59:49   You could be too backed up.

00:59:50   Well, you can be, but not in terms of your computer.

00:59:53   Yeah.

00:59:54   No, Time Machine is one of the best things that Apple did.

00:59:56   I still think that they need to, I would love to see Apple do something, improve the means

01:00:02   of using Time Machine from a MacBook.

01:00:05   Like I know they've got the Time Machine base station, but I still feel like that could

01:00:11   be a better experience.

01:00:12   I mean, did you notice that they got rid of the... maybe I can talk about this.

01:00:17   I'm gonna anyway.

01:00:19   They got rid of the Star of Backfield background?

01:00:21   Yeah, yeah.

01:00:23   Yeah.

01:00:24   Good call.

01:00:25   Way better.

01:00:26   Yeah.

01:00:27   Yeah.

01:00:28   My understanding is the starfield was literally a joke. It was like somebody…

01:00:34   My understanding is that it was Mattis basically making a joke and they were like, "Yeah, run with

01:00:41   that." Yeah, it was definitely Mattis. I've heard the stories. Yeah, I don't want to peg it to

01:00:45   someone. But that's hilarious. It's like, "Here's the goofiest thing I can imagine. Yeah, let's make

01:00:51   that a product." Right. It's like an interesting way of starting. Like, "Well, what's the most

01:00:57   outlandish what like what's the most what's the most buttoned up way that we

01:01:01   could do it well see time machine here's dr. who right well you could do like

01:01:06   both extremes you could say what's this most straight laced conservative

01:01:09   buttoned up way we could do it and say well it would look like the finder

01:01:12   except just maybe it's just list view you know it just looked just like the

01:01:15   finder but maybe yeah that's a different color okay all right what's the most

01:01:19   outlandish way we can do it yeah you're like it's like the credit scene of dr.

01:01:25   who like the opening right you're dr. who and we'll do it we'll do it in 3d

01:01:33   and that's no they were like let's let's go ahead and do it we were talking about

01:01:39   forestall before and somebody emailed me and again you can't you know it's small

01:01:43   data samples because it's only been two major releases since forestall left but

01:01:48   somebody emailed me I didn't recognize the name it's not it's not like somebody

01:01:54   somebody who, you know, but it was clearly somebody who had some, you know, who used

01:01:57   to work at Apple, you know, some engineer and just said, hey, you know, but doesn't

01:02:01   work there anymore. And just more or less said, you know, this could be, you know, the

01:02:06   downside of losing Scott Forstall because whatever you want to say about Scott Forstall,

01:02:11   Scott Forstall knew how to manage large software projects.

01:02:16   I don't know how much from the outside. Now, this is somebody who was on the inside who

01:02:19   I said, you know, this is just seems a lot like like Scott was better at knowing that we should

01:02:25   We should kill a couple of these features because we're not we're not gonna ship on time. Otherwise, I

01:02:32   You know, I don't know that's I thought that was an interesting observation maybe that's not true

01:02:37   Maybe there's you know people from Apple who are listening to the show right now shaking their heads thinking my god

01:02:42   That Scott was the worst at that. I don't know. I'm just saying that's what one person wrote in

01:02:47   But so far two for two major iOS releases post forestall and again just leaving aside the design

01:02:54   Style of them which clearly was in opposition to his you know his direction

01:02:58   But in terms of how good were they, you know when they shipped in September, they're not that not so good quality wise

01:03:05   And I think in both cases it was because of I think it's too much to do in a year I

01:03:12   Honestly think it's too much to do in a year

01:03:17   To be honest, I've heard nothing bad about working under Scott for style

01:03:22   You know beyond the regular Apple rigmarole right there, you know, it was demanding of course

01:03:33   It's like yeah. Yeah you

01:03:36   if you're reporting to Scott forced all your you know,

01:03:39   You're up there and you did it's a high-pressure job for sure, right?

01:03:46   But in general, it's unclear to me why the break with the company happened.

01:03:53   Maybe it was just time to change management, change it up a little bit.

01:04:00   It's unfortunate that since then we've had a couple of iOS releases that maybe seem a little bit undercooked.

01:04:13   For lack of a better word.

01:04:16   Yeah, and I…

01:04:19   I know you attribute it to being locked to the hardware, but I more attribute it to being

01:04:26   overzealous with adding features.

01:04:29   Because I mean, there's two things, right?

01:04:30   Like you can either hit the date or you can do less stuff.

01:04:34   And I would err on this site, and certainly in this case, just do less stuff rather than…

01:04:41   You can't change the hardware, really.

01:04:43   - And I think you have to combine that with the new,

01:04:48   and again, from a product marketing perspective,

01:04:50   I totally understand it, but from this style of,

01:04:52   we're gonna tell you all about it at WWTC in June.

01:04:56   And I feel like they feel like they're painted in a corner

01:05:00   that what they've promised in June

01:05:02   has to ship in September, for the most part.

01:05:05   - Yes, yeah, yeah.

01:05:06   - And there's a couple of things that don't,

01:05:08   but that will be coming in October

01:05:10   because they need Yosemite for them.

01:05:12   And it's the same, I've pointed this out before,

01:05:14   it's like the iCloud Keychain was last year.

01:05:19   iCloud Keychain was a WWDC unveiled feature.

01:05:22   September, iOS 7 came out,

01:05:24   and even though it was in the betas throughout the summer,

01:05:26   it wasn't in the final version,

01:05:28   and then it was there in October in a point release

01:05:32   when Mac OS X Maverick shipped,

01:05:34   because it somehow needed all of that.

01:05:36   And again, it goes back to the gears needing all the,

01:05:39   You need all the gears to be there for this thing to work.

01:05:42   Right.

01:05:43   And as I said at the top of the show, I think the interconnectedness is, and with the watch

01:05:48   too, and you know, the imaginary Apple TV sometime next year.

01:05:55   This is just, it's going to keep getting more complicated, right?

01:05:59   Like the interoperability is going to end up being a difficult thing to address in a

01:06:07   lockstep manner.

01:06:08   you need a lock separately, well you don't need one, but ideally you would have a lock

01:06:13   separately for all of these features.

01:06:17   Maybe and this is me trying to play devil's advocate, maybe take a more optimistic view.

01:06:22   Maybe though iOS 8 was sort of like iOS 7 where iOS 7 was this. We have to do all these

01:06:29   visuals at once. We have to redo the visuals and all these animations and everything that

01:06:34   you all the pixels that are thrown on screen across the system at once in nine months.

01:06:39   And so of course it was going to be rocky. And maybe iOS 8 is the same way in terms of

01:06:44   laying the foundation for all of this interapp communication.

01:06:49   Yeah, the extensions and all that, right. Yeah.

01:06:51   Well, and I'll go even further, interapp and interdevice communication.

01:06:57   Good point. Yeah.

01:06:59   And that maybe things can slow down in terms of how much happens year over year and that

01:07:05   iOS 9 in September will by nature bite off less because it's going to be about making

01:07:12   these things work better and more seamlessly rather than starting them from scratch.

01:07:17   Yeah, I agree.

01:07:20   And again, I don't want to pretend that iOS 8 or the extension or anything are bad,

01:07:27   misconceived or poorly done, there's just more rough edges in the OS than you would

01:07:36   expect.

01:07:37   And I think that's because of the, you know, I think they tried to do a lot more in a lot

01:07:45   less time than they could really achieve with certainty.

01:07:51   Yeah, and I don't think it's in any way a

01:07:54   Refuting the idea that Apple is internally more collaborative than before or

01:08:04   That that they could solve this that they're still understaffed or something like that

01:08:08   I think it's it's simply the nature of you know, it's it's the mythical man month. You can't exactly

01:08:16   Yeah cannot you really?

01:08:18   You can actually like almost prove it that you cannot ship software high quality software faster by throwing people at it

01:08:25   You know and that I do think I think the nature of the features

01:08:28   Themselves shows that they're the company is more collaborative

01:08:33   But that doesn't mean that you can that it makes it possible to do this

01:08:36   Like if they weren't if they were as siloed as they used to be there's these features wouldn't even exist

01:08:41   So do you know who argues against this notion?

01:08:47   Smart guy. His name is John Gruber from back in 2003.

01:08:53   This is that...

01:08:56   Yeah, this came up last night on Twitter. And you know what? This is a great article.

01:09:01   I disagree with a lot of it, as I did at the time, because I don't think we...

01:09:05   I don't even know if we knew each other, but, you know, I'd read you because you're smart

01:09:10   and just disagree with a lot of your arguments. But this is literally called the good, the bad,

01:09:16   on the Avi, which is a classic dick move.

01:09:21   This was when Avi left, right?

01:09:24   It was when Avi left, and like, yeah.

01:09:28   Yeah. Sûlée was like the replacement for the software guy.

01:09:32   But you have a couple of... This is when you actually bother to write

01:09:37   like a million words. You haven't learned to edit yourself yet.

01:09:42   But an essential aspect of Mac OS X's success is that it didn't merely ship, it shipped with discernible momentum.

01:09:49   It got better both in terms of performance and usability steadily and on a regular schedule.

01:09:55   First the public beta and then each release from 10 through 2.

01:10:00   You go on to say, I feel like a jackass quoting you to yourself, but...

01:10:07   That's all right.

01:10:07   Yeah.

01:10:07   It's my 11 year old self.

01:10:09   So it's a different person.

01:10:11   a whole different person. This one major update per year schedule is an essential aspect of

01:10:16   Mac OS X's success. The general perception is Mac OS X isn't just good, but that it's

01:10:22   good and getting better. That perception seems to be held not just by the Mac community,

01:10:27   but the computer industry in general. I think that's an incredibly astute point. The rest

01:10:33   of the article I can argue with you about a lot, but you specifically call out the yearly

01:10:40   schedule.

01:10:41   I'll say this. I don't think you're in disagreement with me though. I don't know and and that was it was

01:10:45   the first few years of Mac OS X it was

01:10:48   Definitely. I mean it was very annual. I mean the first release was six months the 10/1 came out. Yeah, they really needed it

01:10:55   Yeah, and yeah talk to people who worked on it. They were like, yeah, we that had to have to also

01:10:59   trivia first free OS X release

01:11:03   Was it 10/1? 10/1 was free? 10/1 was free. They just gave it away if you went to like any appy dealer

01:11:10   Yeah, it was an apology. They would burn you a DVD and just give it to you

01:11:13   And that was when after that though they were still selling them for $129 each. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's right

01:11:19   I think about how old I remember being shocked when they started dropping the price of the major OS releases

01:11:25   Yeah, me too. 129 bucks compared to Windows seemed reasonable to me, right?

01:11:29   But now it seems like oh my god, that would be awful. Yeah, no one would upgrade

01:11:38   But I see the thing is though is that I feel like in those 10 1 10 2 10 3 10 4

01:11:44   I forget when I slowed down and dropped off the annual cycle maybe around 10 5

01:11:50   Yeah, but they were it was it wasn't two steps forward one step back

01:11:54   It was just two steps forward year after year after year and there wasn't any kind of

01:12:00   But I mean there might have been niggling details here and there if we went back and read Syracuse's

01:12:05   you know, refresh our minds about what it was. But they were niggles. There wasn't like major

01:12:10   fundamental things that were, here's a big new thing in 10.2. It didn't ship like totally not

01:12:16   working. It shipped and it worked. And it was like, oh, this is bad. Yeah, more or less. I mean,

01:12:20   you could complain about Spotlight or some weird little stuff around the edges, you know, but.

01:12:25   Something that was broken in the, you know, the first, you know, the GM version and, you know,

01:12:30   needed a bug fix. So, you know, there are always bugs.

01:12:33   And, and Syracuse, yeah, the finder is garbage and fine.

01:12:37   Nobody was arguing though that nobody was arguing in the 10.1 to 10.2 to 10.3 to

01:12:44   10.4 era that Apple's trying to do too much year over year. Right.

01:12:48   I think it was more like what I said in the article that, wow, this,

01:12:51   they're really on fire and they're just improving the OS on a steady basis.

01:12:55   Well, you did at the, at the start of the article,

01:12:58   and I'm trying to find it now because I don't want to misquote you,

01:13:00   But you said something about copious software projects.

01:13:03   The announcement also indicates that the change was more than titular and that

01:13:10   Cirle will be taking over responsibility for day-to-day management of the company's

01:13:14   copious software projects, which at the time did not raise an eyebrow at all.

01:13:20   Right.

01:13:21   Yes, completely correct.

01:13:22   Now that's kind of funny.

01:13:24   Just thinking about how the scope and the scale has changed.

01:13:30   This is great piece. Like I implore everybody to go read this piece.

01:13:33   It was a different time for sure. I mean, and it was, that piece was also,

01:13:40   I specifically remember when I wrote it,

01:13:41   it was trying to catch up from the fact that daring

01:13:47   fireball didn't start until 2002. And a lot of the,

01:13:51   um, the next,

01:13:54   the new guys from next versus old guys from the Mac side friction,

01:13:59   was mostly played out around '99, 2000, 2001, before I had "Daring Fireball" to do it.

01:14:07   So you dredged it up?

01:14:10   A little, I think a little bit.

01:14:12   I remember reading this piece and being like, "Really? Are we still doing this?"

01:14:17   Right.

01:14:18   But it's smart, and I don't disagree with... I understand a lot of the perspective now.

01:14:24   I still like to and in hindsight, you know in hindsight, it's you know, it's it all worked out for the better

01:14:31   You know, but I've said this before that I still like to think that

01:14:34   the the Apple next

01:14:37   Combination I know some people have called it a reverse takeover and it's more of a joke though. But yeah

01:14:43   Yeah, but at an executive level it did happen

01:14:45   Yeah, it's in terms of Steve and in the people he picked to directly report to him. It was mostly a reverse

01:14:52   Well, whatever. It's a it's a marriage. It's a marriage and the next people ended up wearing their pants

01:14:57   Shiller was already there. Right and Schiller stayed and is there to the state Johnny?

01:15:02   I've was there and Steve, you know as said we kind of picked him out of the

01:15:05   He went in he went in Steve went into the industrial design group having looked at Apple shipping products and

01:15:12   Drawn an estimation of the quality of their industrial design

01:15:16   He thought I'm gonna have to go in here and fire all of these people

01:15:18   Walked in and met Johnny I've and saw the stuff that Johnny I've had wanted to ship and was like, holy shit

01:15:24   There's a gold mine. These guys are geniuses. Yeah, you know, it was like, you know

01:15:28   It was to be fair to computers at the time Apple was still shipping some beautiful stuff. Go look at a beige g3

01:15:35   266

01:15:38   Just before it had that little sidebar thing and and the way that the panel came off with like that that little

01:15:45   It was like a green Bondi Blue almost kind of latch that you could just hit and the side panel would fall off so you could

01:15:52   access the interior. Way better case design than anybody making PCs.

01:15:59   I had a

01:16:01   Power Mac 9600.

01:16:03   God, I forget what the chip was in that.

01:16:07   Like a

01:16:10   604?

01:16:11   That makes a power PC 604. Yeah, I think so. That makes sense. Yeah.

01:16:15   I think it was before there were rumors of an upcoming

01:16:18   620 that I don't think they ever shipped and they did went to the g3 instead

01:16:22   I had a 604 but it was but it had that same thing though where you could access the case

01:16:27   Internals without like tools and stuff like that. You could take it apart. Yeah, not needing a screwdriver. I

01:16:32   Mean and everything was wrong at the time. Yeah, and everything was super neatly organized inside

01:16:39   It was like going into a like a library and it's like here's where you'd put RAM in

01:16:43   here's what you do. So if you wanted to add RAM or change the RAM, you know, take out your, you know, one gigabyte

01:16:48   Your one megabyte Sims remember Sims and replace them with two gigabytes or whatever

01:16:57   It was easy and that the clips were nice. It didn't feel like you were breaking the motherboard

01:17:02   Everything was great. Especially I mean I'd come from history of building my own PC's which was awful

01:17:08   well, I mean I enjoyed it at the time but

01:17:12   you know needing a screwdriver to get into your case was kind of in the ass and this was the

01:17:17   exact opposite of that experience I

01:17:20   Remember I had friends in the dorm trexel who had a built a built from scratch PC and that they they ran it

01:17:28   Literally where they ran it with the with the top open. They just left it unscrewed and they'd

01:17:36   They had a positioned a box fan like an actual like the thing you'd put in your window

01:17:41   They put a box fan next to it to keep you down. Yeah, that's awesome. I had

01:17:47   Just one up here. I so I built a second PC so that I could play like network games on it

01:17:56   and

01:17:57   I didn't buy a case. I literally had a motherboard the mother the motherboard was sitting atop

01:18:04   I swear to God I'm not making this up. It sounds like I'm just gonna make this up.

01:18:09   It was sitting atop an old issue of Macworld magazine.

01:18:11   Long, long way at rest.

01:18:14   There was like a motherboard with like a VGA card,

01:18:17   like literally like a VGA card, a networking card, and I think that was it.

01:18:22   There was some RAM in there and it was just wired up to a monitor.

01:18:25   And you know where it was? In my closet in my apartment.

01:18:29   And my friends would go in there and like sit on a milk crate and

01:18:33   We'd played Age of Empires one

01:18:35   It was like the best 300 bucks had spent but it you know

01:18:42   No, it was like C3PO before they put the don't even that didn't happen

01:18:47   But anyway where I was going is that whatever the the the the hiccups were

01:18:56   You know the friction the years of friction between two different cultures - I like to think of it in hindsight as a reunification

01:19:02   that the the next side that jobs created clearly had Apple DNA I

01:19:08   Couldn't agree just you know it but then they were separated by years like, you know again not to draw

01:19:15   Too too dramatic an analogy but like East Germany and West Germany, but then when the wall came down

01:19:21   Yeah, it was rough for a couple of years because it had been so different on the two sides, but they're still all Germans

01:19:27   No, so I totally agree. So I came to this from

01:19:31   The next point of view if not actually having been super invested in next and I would read you and

01:19:39   Syracuse a and

01:19:42   disagree on some of the technical issues, but

01:19:46   You know over the long run. I think we share the same philosophy in a lot of ways

01:19:51   And we're good

01:19:53   philosophy is I think we're all pretty much of one minded by this point right like right yeah like an

01:19:58   Insatiable desire for nice things. Yes, exactly. Right? Yeah, and what what you attribute to being a nice thing I

01:20:04   Think has changed over the years. Yeah. Yeah, but

01:20:08   Ultimately, it's the same

01:20:11   Like you say like a DNA like that there's a commonality there, right, right and that you know

01:20:18   Once the initial friction was off, but I you know there in those early years though

01:20:21   I had very strong opinions on a lot of those issues and almost always erred on the side of the traditional Mac

01:20:28   side of the argument. File name extensions versus type and creator codes, stuff like that.

01:20:35   Yeah, you got it wrong so often back then.

01:20:38   No, I was totally right. I was totally right. I maintain. I was totally right.

01:20:44   The path, the stupid addressing files by path instead of file ID. It's ridiculous.

01:20:50   I don't disagree, but you're... OK, this is like a 20 year old argument at this point. Forget it.

01:20:56   Right, but you know.

01:20:58   I mean ultimately if people had done what you wanted them to do, it would have been

01:21:02   a non-starter.

01:21:03   No, I don't think so.

01:21:05   I think it would have, no, we would have gotten to where we are now anyway.

01:21:09   It's just where, how, what was…

01:21:10   You wanted to use New Kernel.

01:21:12   No, well, I don't know.

01:21:14   Did I say that?

01:21:15   You literally said, I'm not, this is a quote, I'm looking at the website, and this is

01:21:20   really unfair, okay?

01:21:22   I don't have anything from this period that you can call me on for being stupid, and I'm sure it was stupid in a lot of ways.

01:21:27   And I don't even think this is stupid, but you literally wrote, "I'm not claiming that New Kernel was perfect or superior to Mach in every way. I'm not in any position to make such judgments." That's great.

01:21:40   But by all accounts, the idea of using New Kernel rather than Mach was never even considered by Tevinian, no matter what inventions it held.

01:21:49   Which, yeah, because swapping out a kernel under an OS is a pain in the ass.

01:21:55   New kernel, remember, was designed from the outset as a kernel to power future

01:22:01   PowerPC based Mac operating systems.

01:22:04   Mark wasn't.

01:22:06   Wait, there's something about power management in here that I really want to find.

01:22:11   We're going to have to get Dave to edit this.

01:22:13   For one, superior power management, a continuing weak spot in Mac OS X.

01:22:18   It was it was it was

01:22:20   At the time you were completely correct now it runs on your phone

01:22:25   It's very true. All right, they saw so again, they solved it in a different way

01:22:31   It's and they you know, you could say that right, but I don't know that that it was I'm not saying you're wrong

01:22:35   I'm just saying right, right, but it was true like flavor of the commentary was different right like right because there was a

01:22:43   Cultural divide. All right

01:22:46   Yeah, well, you know the kernel stuff is probably a thing over my head but

01:22:51   No, I mean, I'm not

01:22:54   Trying to be a jerk here. No, but another part too though is I'd I'd

01:22:58   Wasn't I didn't know enough about how the next system worked and I was thinking about it more from like the open step perspective

01:23:06   Which maybe that was mock too, but I thought that was a little bit more abstract where it ran on Solaris

01:23:11   It was mock and I had a lot of weird stuff and yeah, it could well

01:23:15   But that because like that open step ran on Solaris, I thought that that well Coco that the Coco

01:23:21   Right. Yeah

01:23:24   You know and I that's what I thought that more or less was I was thinking was that why couldn't they take Coco?

01:23:30   And do on new kernel what they did to get it running on Solaris. Maybe that was a terrible idea

01:23:36   Maybe that you know, that's you know, what? I don't know. I honestly don't know

01:23:40   I think new kernel is probably kind of billiard

01:23:44   Right because they even had they even had the cocoa layer running on Windows

01:23:47   I mean that was they were actually and they actually thought maybe they'd still ship that at first they were going to ship the

01:23:53   They're gonna call it yellow box from when yeah, they really could I mean

01:23:56   yeah, the the open step lever the cocoa layer as we call it today can ship on a bunch of different OS's and

01:24:02   To be honest probably will in the future

01:24:05   Go eventually gonna swap out the underpinnings. I

01:24:11   I shouldn't be passing judge again from a computer.

01:24:13   So you literally say I'm not in any position to make judgments.

01:24:17   And you said that back in 2003.

01:24:19   So I'm really not trying to be a dick about this.

01:24:22   I'm just, it's just, it's funny, right?

01:24:24   Like it's, it's worth the discussion about it.

01:24:27   Right.

01:24:27   But there was, it was, I was expressing the frustrations from a lot of people I

01:24:30   knew within Apple who were there, you know, from the Mac side who knew that,

01:24:35   maybe that's just one example,

01:24:37   but that there was a lot of Mac stuff that wasn't even considered, you know,

01:24:40   just because it was a, you know, if it wasn't from the next side, it was crap inside of things.

01:24:46   And the only stuff that did survive was stuff that Next didn't even have, you know, like QuickTime

01:24:50   famously survived. And not because QuickTime had a great API, QuickTime had a horrible API. I mean,

01:24:55   you talk to anybody who ever programmed QuickTime, they get the shakes and you bring it up. But it

01:25:01   was the fact that Next didn't have anything. They didn't have a multimedia thing. They needed,

01:25:07   you know, QuickTime gave them something they didn't even have before. You couldn't even play

01:25:10   movies on next machines. They replaced quick draw with quartz. Yeah, well that was a big win because

01:25:16   quick draw was so much better. They ditched the wrong thing. They ditched display postscript.

01:25:21   Right, right. That was just, you know, that was one that I don't remember being contentious,

01:25:27   though. There might have been some, no, it was one of the best moves that they did with with OS X,

01:25:31   for sure. Right. And that, you know, the quick draw, having been designed to do

01:25:35   technically amazing things on 1984, 1985 computers was not,

01:25:40   did not make it relevant going into the future. Right. Yeah. Uh, so yeah,

01:25:44   so quartz, the compositing windows server was way ahead of its time. Yeah.

01:25:49   And at the time I was frustrated with Syracuse's reviews because

01:25:54   he complained about resizing windows.

01:25:56   Like why do they resize with live?

01:25:59   Like rather than just the classic Mac OS outline thing.

01:26:04   And I was like, because that's cool and it's awesome?

01:26:09   But he's right.

01:26:10   Like I've come to see the product point of view of it

01:26:13   where, you know, resizing it five frames per second is not,

01:26:18   that's not tenable, it's dumb.

01:26:20   - I remember at the time, that was the years

01:26:25   that I was working at bare bones software.

01:26:28   And we'd get new developer betas of OS 10

01:26:32   Install them on you know, really good hardware, you know, it wasn't like we were installing it on cheapy stuff. And I remember watching

01:26:38   Jim Korea who's now at Omni group with just all the

01:26:44   Fellas, but Jim would Jim would just open a window and first he would grab the corner and resize it really really fast and

01:26:52   His eyes would start to roll

01:26:54   Then he'd grab the window title bar and just shake it over the screen as fast as he could and you'd see all of this

01:27:01   Shearing I mean it was just there's no way that it could keep up with you know

01:27:04   Jim's hand just going side to side and they would just roll, you know, just sigh walk away. So it was so bad

01:27:11   You know what? That's funny though. It's what I think is so interesting though. Is that in between?

01:27:14   2000 2001 Apple which went for looks beautiful even if it is painfully slow to

01:27:23   2006 Apple making the first version of iOS which looked beautiful

01:27:30   but never got slow. So was that it was a subtle shift in priorities where I disagree with that characterization, but

01:27:38   Sorry finish. Well, here's the example that the example is you load daring fireball and mobile Safari on the original iPhone running iOS

01:27:46   1.0 and you start to scroll. What do you see? You saw that checkerboard. Remember the checkerboard?

01:27:50   Yes. Yeah, so the scrolling always kept up with your finger

01:27:55   But they would just dump the content and show a checkerboard if they needed to

01:27:58   So it always felt like it was perfectly responsive with your finger. So, you know

01:28:03   it but it wasn't showing you the

01:28:06   Content in high fidelity and in fact with the checkerboard it would just drop it completely

01:28:10   Mm-hmm, and I thought you know

01:28:13   I thought that was one of the most genius decisions in all of the original iOS 1.0. Was that checkerboard?

01:28:18   Of course, you know clearly the ultimate answer was to just keep up with your finger with the actual content

01:28:26   Which is what all iPhones do today?

01:28:28   But in terms of what they should do then, the macOS 10 1.0 solution would have been for the iOS to do really jittery,

01:28:37   sheery, you know, shearing scrolling, have scrolling get real slow as you scroll a big long web page.

01:28:44   And what they came up with in 2007 was delightful.

01:28:48   It actually, even though it was disappointing slightly at first that, oh, I can't keep the whole page there.

01:28:53   But the fact that it no matter what you did what you saw those checkerboards moving up in the screen kept pace with your finger

01:28:59   Was to me delightful. So I agree. I was initially going to disagree. But yeah, the the the checkup the

01:29:06   instant

01:29:08   interaction is always

01:29:10   Better

01:29:13   What I liked about Mac OS X at the time when it was released was that it was betting on the future

01:29:20   like yeah hard like harder than it really should have because at the time when it shipped the product I

01:29:26   Liked because I was more on the nerdy side of the scale like I could see what they were doing

01:29:33   But it wasn't a great product

01:29:37   Well, and it's harder to bet on the future when you're behind right, but they did they bet hard and you know

01:29:44   Microsoft had to catch up years later with Vista which right comically late to the game at that point, right?

01:29:49   Well and that and and at the same time that os 10 was shipping more or less

01:29:53   Roughly 2000 2001. I mean 2001 was actually when XP shipped

01:29:58   Yeah

01:29:59   But Microsoft was shipping what would go on to be the single most popular version of Windows that ever shipped

01:30:04   Right, and I think it's quite possible. Maybe it that ever will ship

01:30:09   They might be in some if not a decline like they've hit a permanent plateau. Yeah, and they'll never be as popular

01:30:15   No new version of Windows will ever be as popular as XP was

01:30:19   Yeah, do you find that I find that a bit of a bummer? I don't know how you feel about that

01:30:24   No, I think it's do I think it's a little depressing because I feel like it'd be better

01:30:28   You know best thing there, you know

01:30:29   It's clearly the one of the best things that's happened to the iOS is Android getting its design act together

01:30:34   Right, you know, yeah whether you know, well, I mean that much of it of you know, the market

01:30:43   is God kind of kind of person I just like to see everybody doing awesome stuff all of the time and

01:30:49   It's not happening, right?

01:30:52   Right, it would be better. It's just better in general if other people are doing awesome stuff and it's also

01:30:57   Yeah, but you know and then from a more objective point of view it does keep everybody on their toes. Oh, yes. Yeah, you know

01:31:04   You know just going back to the main thesis of this episode where we're talking about is Apple doing too much per year

01:31:13   year. Maybe it's better if they do a little bit too much per year than do a little too

01:31:18   little too per year, right? As a general rule of thumb, if they have to err on one side

01:31:23   or the other and because humans are imperfect and because software planning is imperfect

01:31:28   and software management is imperfect and software engineering is certainly imperfect, you're

01:31:34   never going to get it exactly right. So if you have to take a guess whether you're going

01:31:38   to go a little too fast or a little too slow, it might be better to go too fast.

01:31:41   So, you know, yeah, well and so I agree with you

01:31:45   But I'm gonna have to I'm gonna play devil's advocate for the sake of conversation

01:31:50   Just before the show you sent me the link that yeah says that iOS 8

01:31:55   Adoption has stagnated compared to iOS 7 adoption

01:32:00   If that keeps happening

01:32:04   That is that's a bad sign, right? I think this it's and I think it's a really bad sign

01:32:11   So it's and these are Apple's own numbers, which is really interesting.

01:32:16   I don't want to say damning, but kind of damning.

01:32:19   Apple has a web page on there.

01:32:21   It's the App Store support page for developers.

01:32:24   And it tells you at like a once a week snapshot.

01:32:28   I think it's once a week.

01:32:29   I don't know.

01:32:30   As we record today on October 7th, the data comes from October 5th, two days ago.

01:32:35   And it just tells you of devices that have come to the App Store in the last,

01:32:40   I don't know, is it a week or something like that? Here's what OS they were running.

01:32:43   And as of, you know, 20 days after the release of iOS 8, it's about a 50/50 split. iOS 7 is at 47%,

01:32:52   iOS 8 is at 47%, and earlier versions, the remaining 6%. The reason that's bad, that's really...

01:33:00   I mean, to be fair, that's better than most other people in the industry.

01:33:04   Yeah, but it's really a year ago, Iowa 7, 20 days after it came out was at 70%.

01:33:10   Right.

01:33:11   Which is not, it's not like that's well within, you know, outside like statistical variation.

01:33:18   You know, that's a big difference. That's what is that 24%? And, you know, there might be,

01:33:26   almost certainly it's multifaceted the reasons why, but I don't think it's outlandish at all.

01:33:31   I think it's almost certain that part of it is that

01:33:35   people out there feel like they've either had bad experiences in the past when they've okayed the

01:33:43   Okay, a software update is available. Do you want to install it?

01:33:47   And now they're more likely to hit cancel than they were otherwise

01:33:51   Or it's just what they're hearing from people about iOS 8 then. Oh don't do it. You know wait

01:33:57   I've

01:34:00   As I said, I told Adrian not to update and she'd already heard it from people at work

01:34:07   That's that's a bad sign like that

01:34:14   You can't do that. Yeah, like eventually on last week's episode of this show with Ben Thompson

01:34:21   I just said offhand I said, you know, that's the long term if they keep having OS releases like that

01:34:25   it seems inevitable that it's gonna slow the pace

01:34:28   of adoption, which is not in Apple's interest,

01:34:31   and it's not in the interest of third-party developers.

01:34:33   Like, it's been a very virtuous circle for Apple,

01:34:37   because their newest features are in front of more people,

01:34:41   and if it works well, it makes people feel like,

01:34:45   "Hey, my year-old iPhone is even better

01:34:47   "than it was a year ago,

01:34:48   "because I've got these cool new features."

01:34:50   And it's good for developers,

01:34:51   because when new developer technologies come out,

01:34:56   they can adopt them quicker than right away,

01:35:00   like the new auto layout stuff

01:35:02   and adaptive size stuff for new screens.

01:35:07   You can do that even though it's iOS 8 only

01:35:09   because Apple promises that a majority of customers

01:35:12   are gonna be running iOS 8 very soon.

01:35:14   - Well, I think like,

01:35:18   It's almost absurd that you can, like a great lens to look at Apple is to look at the order of priorities, right?

01:35:30   Which is at this point, pretty basic.

01:35:33   It's Apple, their customers, and then third party developers.

01:35:36   Right.

01:35:37   I think that, you know, shipping buggy OS updates initially hurts their own customers.

01:35:46   And that's probably what they care about the most.

01:35:48   Right.

01:35:48   Yep.

01:35:48   Yeah.

01:35:49   And then their customers won't update and that's going to trickle

01:35:52   down into third party developers.

01:35:53   Right.

01:35:54   And then that's the, you know, given the cycle of life, like the feedback

01:35:57   loop, uh, if third party developers can't count on customers, having the

01:36:02   up the OS updated, they can't adopt the good, the good stuff that Apple

01:36:08   has released and wants people to do.

01:36:11   Uh, it's.

01:36:13   It's a horrible cycle.

01:36:15   So yeah, as a developer, that sucks that maybe I can't count on these new things, but I think

01:36:29   Apple should probably serve their customers first.

01:36:33   I understand the priority system.

01:36:36   I think they've failed their own customers in a certain way, to some small degree.

01:36:41   Yeah, it might be, you know, that you can't overestimate, underestimate, I don't know,

01:36:50   whichever way works.

01:36:53   How much damage you can do to the trust between the typical user, of which there are now hundreds

01:37:02   of millions of them.

01:37:03   Exactly.

01:37:04   So they're not technical people at all, they're just people who want to have an iPhone that

01:37:07   works or an iPad. And the trust that they have in Apple when that dialog box comes up and says,

01:37:13   "A new version of iOS 8 is available for your device. Tap here to install."

01:37:18   Because I think once you've said no once, why would you not say no again the second time?

01:37:25   You have to... You've been trained that everything's great and then something bit you.

01:37:32   Yeah, there's a little boy who cried wolf angle to it and it's slightly a bad metaphor because that the kid in that allegory is a liar

01:37:39   And apple's not doing this on purpose. They're not lying. No, no

01:37:42   Clearly everybody with an apple wishes that all these features worked

01:37:45   Perfectly also, I hate that story because it's dumb to show up every time the kid kills wolf like just do it

01:37:51   Like why just a point a new kid?

01:37:53   Just get the kid off the hill

01:37:56   There's better solutions to this problem. Yeah, you know what you're gonna work you're gonna work inside from now on

01:38:01   Anyway, sorry to cut you off.

01:38:05   But the townspeople's reaction, though, is human nature, where if you feel like you've

01:38:11   been burned a couple times and you feel like, "Hey, my iPad got kind of slow when I installed

01:38:16   iOS 7," it is going to make you less likely to do it.

01:38:20   And I know that that whole aspect gets…

01:38:24   The jackass way to overstate it is that whole thing that came up last year where that it

01:38:28   was planned obsolescence.

01:38:30   That infuriated me. Well, here's what and I think now we're seeing why it's so infuriating, right?

01:38:36   So last year there were there was there were people like in the New York Times

01:38:39   I forget who but a couple people chirping in that. Hey, I upgraded my old iPhone. It's a year older

01:38:44   It's two years old and now it's slower

01:38:46   Apple did that on purpose because they want me to buy a new iPhone and

01:38:49   I thought that was so stupid because it's had so little respect for people like if Apple had done that on purpose

01:38:55   Isn't it a natural response for somebody who says hey, I?

01:38:59   Had I paid a lot of money for my iPhone. I did what Apple told me to do and it got slower

01:39:04   Maybe I should try a Samsung phone or something

01:39:08   I mean, that's a little bit of culture the market II kind of thing for me personally, but I see your point

01:39:13   I do I understand where you can that's that's a perfectly rational reaction to it. Yeah, I you know

01:39:18   That's what I think if it had been the case. Yes, but yeah

01:39:22   Take the politics out of the fact that Android versus iOS is sort of a political thing where we've got we've got

01:39:28   Tribes, you know that you and I are part of this, you know

01:39:32   Mac indie Mac iOS. Yeah, I like to pretend that I'm not but right but fair enough

01:39:37   Yeah, take it to something where there's there's less really, you know religious style fervor

01:39:42   I know we try I do hope that I do too that I kind of try to stay above that and keep my mind open

01:39:47   It's best I can but there's no doubt be honest it, you know

01:39:50   And it's there and the people who listen to our show and stuff like that

01:39:53   But just I'm just saying though that like if you buy that let's take two brands that are really close and intertwined in their histories

01:40:00   And in their reputations Honda and Toyota right that they're both Japanese

01:40:04   And they both have this reputation for quality and for durability that you know you can buy a Honda or Toyota

01:40:09   And it's a very good likelihood. It's gonna last for over a hundred thousand miles

01:40:13   And that's you know you bought Toyota's two two or three cars in a row

01:40:17   And then you buy a Toyota and you get a bad one

01:40:20   And it's you know has transmission problems two years in doesn't that make you more likely to think hey?

01:40:25   Maybe I should try a Honda next time right it doesn't make you think I bet Toyota did this on purpose because they want me

01:40:31   To buy another car right that's just it's counter to the brand and the Apple brand is

01:40:36   We make good stuff, and it lasts at least in terms of technology world lasts long

01:40:41   And anything that did anything that goes against that is off the brand and off the message and off the relationship

01:40:48   that they want to have with their customers.

01:40:50   So I really think that that whole idea that it's planned obsolescence,

01:40:56   that new versions of iOS run poorly on, or even less than ideally, on older devices,

01:41:03   it's not just wrong, because I know from the people I know at Apple,

01:41:06   the people I know at Apple would quit if they were told,

01:41:08   "Hey, make this run slow on an iPhone 4."

01:41:10   - Yeah, there's no way that it isn't really. - But really what?

01:41:13   - No. - I mean that sincerely.

01:41:14   sincerely I had a conversation with a friend at WWDC who rolled his eyes about

01:41:18   and said literally I would quit if my boss came into me and told me to do

01:41:22   something like that I would just immediately I would just say okay and

01:41:24   then I would just pack up my stuff because I could get a job somewhere else

01:41:27   I'm not gonna you know why would I do something like that that's you know

01:41:30   evil's the wrong way that's not what he said but I would have no respect for

01:41:33   myself if I did that that's not how they do it.

01:41:36   No, that's honestly Apple. If anything, Apple is facing a crisis of talent retention.

01:41:45   Yeah. And that's the sort of thing that would make it worse.

01:41:47   If you start being like, well, you know what, cripple a phone in a year.

01:41:50   Right.

01:41:51   It's like, fuck you. I'll go, do you have much money that can get elsewhere? Like, it's fine.

01:41:58   Like, these people can get a job wherever they want.

01:42:01   Right. Like, the people I know at Apple are the opposite, where they would take pride in the fact

01:42:05   that you know I worked on you know I don't know I worked on you know this UI

01:42:10   list view scrolling yeah and it's still buttery smooth on an iPhone 4s I totally

01:42:15   agree with you right and that's like that's a feather in my cap that it's you

01:42:19   know that one I wrote it 100% nobody is trying to make anything slow right and I

01:42:26   think that this thing to go back to this you know that the upgrade pace is

01:42:29   is apparently significantly off year over year is to me, like I said, a canary in a coal mine

01:42:37   that those sort of, hey, if you keep doing this, it's going to affect it,

01:42:41   that it's come to fruition that we've got a dead canary here.

01:42:45   I feel like it's a sprinter that is hit a stride that's like a little bit off and it's almost

01:42:51   stumbling at this point. Right. And instead of saying like, hey, this could happen, you know,

01:42:57   it's actually happening and we're seeing, you know, here the last lap around the track was slower.

01:43:02   Right. Exactly.

01:43:03   It's not just you and I, the commentators in the booth, speculating that maybe he's slower,

01:43:08   the runner is slower, that it's, hey, you know.

01:43:10   You can clock it.

01:43:11   Yeah, the pace is off. Very, very worrisome to me. I haven't linked it up on During Fire. I

01:43:16   probably will before the show hits, but I think it's, and there's a couple, somebody else has

01:43:20   data that backs it up to Mixpanel. I don't know who they are, but the stuff from Apple I trust.

01:43:26   Yeah, I mean it's their own numbers, right? So kind of

01:43:29   I'd imagine you can hold them to their own numbers that I don't know why you wouldn't

01:43:34   Yeah want to um, I think I think that they'll they it's not like and I don't think it's too late

01:43:40   I don't think they can not turn, you know, but I feel like

01:43:42   No, I think though that they've got to shift priorities

01:43:46   subtly

01:43:48   in favor of

01:43:49   Higher quality even at the expense of doing less in the same amount of time

01:43:54   Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, is it too late for the next cycle? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know Mark Gurman

01:44:01   reported that

01:44:03   9-5 Mac. Yeah

01:44:05   That they've got eight point one eight point two and eight point three in testing which is different than all most previous years

01:44:12   They've only done a point one. Mm-hmm

01:44:14   And I you know, who knows if that's the case or not

01:44:18   I'm it was unclear from his report how much of that was just coming from

01:44:21   User agent strings that that they saw at nine to five Mac in Google Analytics, which are easily fake. Yeah, I'm hesitant to

01:44:28   But he also suggested though that he'd spoken to people who backed that up eight point two. I believe he's great

01:44:36   He's got good sourcing a lot of the time

01:44:38   I'm hesitant to

01:44:42   You know to ascribe anything to version numbers like

01:44:48   You know, the 6+ is, I believe, iPhone 7, 2.

01:44:54   Yeah, 6 is 7, 1.

01:44:56   Yeah, it does not matter. Those things don't get assigned until way later in the process.

01:45:02   No, and the code names were weird, too.

01:45:04   The plus was N56.

01:45:07   The 6 was N61. I hadn't heard those, but they're arbitrary. I think we've both been told that they're...

01:45:16   Yeah, you don't make any sense. Yeah. Yeah, like for example, yeah, like for example

01:45:21   The fact that the six is n61 and the plus is n56 doesn't mean that the six came after

01:45:29   There's no right. It doesn't mean that there were four iterations between it

01:45:33   There's no rhyme or reason to any of this stuff. It is apparently just a you know, there's an open slot at n56 here

01:45:40   Take it you call it your device the n56, right?

01:45:44   But people inside Apple get you really used to calling it by those divide those names like they yeah

01:45:49   I mean why we knew that's it, right? Yeah

01:45:51   But but there's there's no reason. Yeah, right

01:45:56   Right and the easiest thing to fake or fudge or whatever in the world is the user agent string of a browser. I

01:46:03   know Don has

01:46:06   All right, let me take a third break here, but then we'll wrap up the show but I want to thank our

01:46:13   our third and final sponsor of this episode.

01:46:18   Right back week after week from last week,

01:46:22   it's U-Bar.

01:46:24   It's a Mac utility.

01:46:25   It's a dock replacement for the Mac.

01:46:29   And it can be configured in a bunch of ways.

01:46:32   You can configure it as a replacement for the Mac OS dock,

01:46:35   that sort of same style.

01:46:36   Or if you're a Windows convert to the Mac,

01:46:40   or just a Mac user who likes the Windows-style taskbar.

01:46:43   Ubar has configuration options that you can set it up

01:46:48   to be a lot more taskbar-like than doc-like.

01:46:51   So if you prefer a doc, you can configure it that way.

01:46:54   If it's a taskbar, you can do it that way.

01:46:57   But no matter how you configure it, it looks great.

01:47:00   It's pure OS X, it's just a Mac utility,

01:47:02   it's all written really native.

01:47:04   The developer, I mentioned this last week,

01:47:07   but it's so fascinating to me,

01:47:08   his hobby is one of his hobbies is mechanical watchmaking and it really

01:47:15   shows like a really really nice handmade mechanical watches with you know just

01:47:19   everything you'd think you know really fine attention to the typography on the

01:47:23   dials and the shape and exact length of the hands and everything like that you

01:47:28   bar looks like software from someone who makes precision watches really does to

01:47:34   me. But it's got a bunch of added features, nerdy features, sort of stuff that if you

01:47:40   listen to the talk show you might be interested in. So it sort of also adds the features of

01:47:45   Activity Monitor right into your taskbar, your dock. So if you hold the control key

01:47:50   on your keyboard while you scrub across apps in the dock, it replaces the CPU name or the

01:47:57   app name with the CPU and RAM usage for each process running in your dock. You can spot

01:48:03   Unresponsive apps immediately an app that's you know doing the spinning pizza of death

01:48:08   Gets a flag right in the right in the dock right away

01:48:11   tons of customers

01:48:14   Customization light and dark themes just like in Yosemite

01:48:18   You can add favorites for quick access or have it's just show the apps that are running

01:48:23   And the developer he's right. He's working like mad. He's really just focused on this

01:48:27   You bar 2.0 launched in July and there's already been 30 updates

01:48:33   And they sponsored the show last episode and he emailed me and said the response from listeners has been phenomenal a

01:48:40   Bunch of listener suggestions have already been implemented in you bar through updates just since last week

01:48:46   and he's been blown away by how smart and enthusiastic and

01:48:50   Allah's dad how good-looking the the audience that listens to this show is

01:48:57   He's already had he had the Apple store business specialists emailed him because customers started asking about you bar after he was on the show

01:49:05   That's great

01:49:06   And it a Japanese user spent it sent him an email saying that a typhoon was on its way to Japan

01:49:11   Which gave him free time because he didn't have to go to work. And so he sent over a full Japanese translation

01:49:16   Of the user interface. So gee, I think the bar is now just since the last episode of the talk show

01:49:23   It is now localized in Japanese due to a typhoon. So I hopefully everybody's okay from the typhoon

01:49:28   Typhoon was good news really really really interesting software

01:49:33   I had not heard of this utility before and it's really really interesting. I it's certainly not for everybody

01:49:38   that's the whole point of things like dock replacements and and you know launch bar and

01:49:43   Alfred and and apps like that

01:49:47   That sort of thing is not for everybody right Alfred and launch bar are not supposed to replace spotlight for everybody spotlights the interface

01:49:55   That's like that's for like

01:49:57   hundreds of millions of people

01:49:58   Things like you bar is you know for geeks who want to customize stuff really really interesting

01:50:03   Normally, the app is 20 bucks, which is a steal for software like this

01:50:07   But here's the password or the code coupon code Gruber Edition all one word. It's like the the watch Gruber

01:50:15   edition

01:50:17   and you get 50% off meaning it's just 10 bucks 50% off 10 bucks for an amazing

01:50:25   app from a developer who's clearly very very responsive to requests so I wouldn't

01:50:31   be surprised if you looked at it and thought well if it just did one more

01:50:33   thing maybe I would send this suggestion in here's where you go to find out more

01:50:37   Ubar, U-B-A-R, app.com. Ubar, app.com, and the coupon code, all one word, Gruber Edition.

01:50:47   Nice. Like gold. Pure gold Gruber.

01:50:54   It has been, it's been like eight days since the episode came out, but I thought,

01:50:57   my God, that's a lot to happen in a week.

01:50:59   Yeah, that seems awesome. That's great. And you know, it's not even like a Sherlock

01:51:07   because he's you know like these kind of things I mean yeah it's reverse

01:51:11   you're looking like this is this is destined and intended for aces like you

01:51:17   if you are you a Mac ace go get this right yeah it's like you know BB edit is

01:51:24   it was not Sherlock when they in text that is that in the system you know

01:51:28   right it's like if you need it you do you know you need it whereas Apple is

01:51:32   focusing on the you know all across the board like that's the way you survive

01:51:36   when Apple has a built-in app that does the thing that you do yeah

01:51:39   busy Cal busy Cal gets by by doing more and better than the built-in calendar

01:51:45   app yeah yeah I mean you you ship a notes app right and you're moving to the

01:51:50   Mac so you know all right you've got it you're trying to look at it and say we

01:51:56   can do better right you have to look at it and say Apple is always going to do

01:51:59   something that's sort of very very basic for the built-in thing yeah no I I

01:52:03   totally agree where were we you tell me I don't know I think we were talking

01:52:13   about we were wrapping up I think the discussion on on the annual cycle is

01:52:19   that fair is that right yeah like where where do we think that they should go

01:52:26   from here.

01:52:27   And how about this…

01:52:28   Do less.

01:52:29   And you know what?

01:52:30   Honestly, I think that at this point, I think one of the problems is they've committed

01:52:38   themselves to doing a major revision every year.

01:52:42   And that is… and as much as I love marketing at Apple, like done correctly, I don't think

01:52:55   that you can commit yourself to doing as many new features per year as they have been committing

01:53:02   themselves to do and integrating it across all of the product lines from the Mac to iOS

01:53:09   to the watch and eventually to the Apple TV stuff. Maybe that's a minor point but it'll

01:53:18   eventually be a thing. I don't know what to do. I mean, maybe just get away from numbers

01:53:27   at that point, right? Like, does it need to be iOS 9 next year? Or can it just be like,

01:53:34   here's our latest iOS?

01:53:36   Yeah, I don't know though.

01:53:39   I don't know either. I really don't know. But what's happening is untenable, I feel.

01:53:47   I see the sense of that, of getting rid of version numbers, but on the other hand, I

01:53:51   really don't know what version numbers mean to people. What does my dad think when his

01:53:56   iPad says that iOS 8.0 is available? How much of that is gibberish and how much of it does

01:54:02   he get the basic idea that it's a new number? I don't know.

01:54:10   But I do want, so that's a, that's a great point, but I do wonder if that internally

01:54:15   and because they're so involved in the industry and the, that particular way of

01:54:20   looking at things, they see a new version number, meaning major new features.

01:54:27   Maybe you don't need that, you know, like maybe.

01:54:31   You know, and I know this is an off beaten path or what's the phrase, I don't know.

01:54:39   Yeah.

01:54:39   Whatever.

01:54:40   Horse that's been beaten a lot. Somebody's been beaten beating it ever horse. Yeah

01:54:44   But to compare the version to compare software version numbers to

01:54:51   The automobile industry and nobody's confused when they say the new 2015 Honda Accord, right?

01:54:58   but the 2016 Honda Accord may not be

01:55:02   It's only every four three four five years that they actually do like wow. It's all together new. It's a new drivetrain

01:55:10   It's a new you know a new body shape, you know and in between you know the years they're incremental, right?

01:55:17   But they don't label them differently and they might advertise it more when there's a major new change

01:55:23   right when they truly upgrade the body and it make it look a lot more modern and it's bigger and has a

01:55:29   major new

01:55:30   Technology in the engine they might spend more on the ad campaign that year than they did the year before

01:55:35   When it was an incremental version of the one before but they still just give it a new year and they just say it's the 2016

01:55:42   Honda Accord and

01:55:44   You know and that seems to work pretty well for them

01:55:48   I don't know and I always thought that that was sort of what Microsoft was going for when they went from Windows 3

01:55:54   Oh to 3 1 to Windows 95 was right the some let's not bother people with

01:56:00   And then you know Windows 98 and then they you know, I guess there was a Windows 2000

01:56:05   But then they were ran in a different direction with XP because it was I think maybe because they were I think that was a good

01:56:11   idea, but

01:56:13   You know, they were to announce something and then ship a year later and I think that bit them and they got cold feet

01:56:18   Yeah that they were having they were yeah and and it they weren't doing it annually

01:56:23   And so you were still running office 98 in the year

01:56:26   2001 and it fried old whereas if it had just been a version number you might not think that whereas it really seemed like and

01:56:33   I don't know. Maybe there was something even that made it worse about crossing the millennium and still running, you know

01:56:39   Maybe but I mean I works 11. Yeah, that was kind of awful

01:56:44   I think Apple kind of stepped in that exact same right so Apple had stepped in the same thing

01:56:49   Yeah, I work 11 was was up to date up until

01:56:53   And it's funny because some people still like it better. Yeah, so that's awkward

01:56:58   They had a bit of a Microsoft moment in a microcosm right there, right?

01:57:03   And it's just the case that you know, even the companies that are functioning

01:57:06   Well, it's just so takes so long to ship big software projects, right?

01:57:12   So, yeah, I don't know if getting rid of version numbers would be the problem

01:57:17   I don't know if just doing less in each one and letting you know

01:57:19   like as other a couple people have called it having a snow leopard moment and you know

01:57:25   like Apple said with snow leopard which no new features right no what a great ballsy move did

01:57:34   I can't think of any other company in the industry ever literally ever that is had a big event saying

01:57:44   we have nothing new right we're just going to spill we've we're just gonna spend this next you

01:57:49   know, a couple of months and, you know, we've spent the last few months and we're

01:57:54   going to keep spending the next few months, you know, cleaning up the foundation.

01:57:57   Which, if we're honest, was effectively a misdirection because they had GCD, they

01:58:03   had a bunch of API changes under the hood.

01:58:06   Yeah.

01:58:06   They had done a lot of work.

01:58:08   But it was stuff that was...

01:58:09   The user features, right?

01:58:10   Yeah.

01:58:10   It was really hard to market, right?

01:58:12   GCD.

01:58:12   Yeah.

01:58:12   GCD, that was when GCD...

01:58:14   So GCD is a perfect example where it was...

01:58:16   I think that's when they killed garbage collection too, in favor of AHRQ.

01:58:19   Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And I think Syracuse have pointed out perfectly in his review that,

01:58:25   you know, no new features does not mean he had nothing to write about. If anything,

01:58:30   he had as much to write about as ever before, because he cares deeply about that sort of stuff.

01:58:36   But from like, what do you tell normal people who are just coming in for a new MacBook? Well,

01:58:41   what's new in Snow Leopard? It's well, we've cleaned it up under hood, and it runs more

01:58:45   more efficiently. It's not the answer is it's better, right? Like better than that.

01:58:50   Seeing it in conversation.

01:58:53   But it's, you know,

01:58:53   it was a fact that though that a lot of engineering resources had been committed

01:58:58   to and devoted to things like GCD and arc and stuff like that,

01:59:02   that wasn't user facing. And you know, again, it's, it's in a sense,

01:59:07   sometimes or not even sometimes,

01:59:09   almost always the best marketing is to be completely honest, you know,

01:59:13   And even if it sounds like a funny thing for a tech company to say, no new features, I don't know, it went over well with everybody I know.

01:59:21   And I think in hindsight it was a great release.

01:59:24   I agree, but I do, you know, kind of everybody you know and everybody I know is that, you know, that's a bit of a small window, right?

01:59:33   Yeah, but, you know, it is…

01:59:36   Tech-wise, right?

01:59:37   Right, but think about the people you know. You know, like, like with Adri, like with

01:59:43   you recommending that she not update. Wouldn't you like to be able to tell her next year

01:59:47   with iOS nine? Yeah, just go ahead and update. It's just gonna make your phone run faster.

01:59:51   Like, really, if you really believe that that was the case, don't you think that would go

01:59:55   over well with her? I mean, I

01:59:56   Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, like, restoring a little bit of faith and stuff. I mean, I already

02:00:01   told her like 802 whatever 8 yeah 802 do it go for it it's gonna be good I think

02:00:11   there's still like a little bit of trepidation but yeah like next year I

02:00:14   just want yeah I get crap from Amy I do like I think like a lot of people like

02:00:21   she had iTunes match turned on and she updated she got a new phone and she

02:00:26   updated or she had to update cuz she got a new phone and I said all of her music

02:00:30   was there and then she went to the gym and there was like no music on her phone.

02:00:35   And I was like, "Welcome to iTunes Match."

02:00:38   And she blamed me because she just, you know, she knows that I don't work at Apple and I

02:00:42   certainly, you know, I had nothing to do with iTunes Match.

02:00:45   But she blames me that the cloud is just unreliable.

02:00:50   And I said, "I'll tell you, I think that what I did is I turned off iTunes Match and I have

02:00:54   all the music I want.

02:00:55   It's on my computer and I just sync to iTunes the old-fashioned way."

02:00:58   So I said, "Here, give me your phone."

02:00:59   off iTunes match, plugged it into her Mac, and sync and said, put all of her music on

02:01:05   it. And now all of our music is there. And she's never going to complain again. But I

02:01:08   would love to have been able to say to her, yeah, just upgrade to iOS eight, and it fixes

02:01:12   all the iTunes match issues.

02:01:14   Yeah, that makes sense to me. I haven't actually ever used iTunes match. But there's a lot

02:01:21   of little things with the cloud stuff that works like that. Well, that's, yeah, that's

02:01:25   what I'm saying. Like, I used to really worry about backing up my iTunes library, because

02:01:29   I bought that and if my hard drive died, I'd be

02:01:33   screwed. Uh, that's mostly no longer the case,

02:01:38   right? Like, man, I don't care anymore. I buy a

02:01:42   new device and I've got all of it. It, at least

02:01:45   it lists everything that I've ever bought and I

02:01:48   can watch, you know, I can buy my new phone and I

02:01:51   can watch a casino rail on it because I bought it

02:01:56   years ago

02:01:59   so i don't i don't really care about that kind of stuff that much anymore

02:02:04   well i think music and not to go

02:02:06   gone a total i tend to enter but i think music is very different from movies

02:02:09   because with movies

02:02:11   if you're real you know

02:02:14   you don't missus there's no real good reason to have all of your movies with

02:02:18   you all the time

02:02:19   on a local device real desert the only time i worry about is that i'm going to

02:02:23   go to flight

02:02:24   Yeah, something. And even then you're probably only gonna load a handful of them and you can stand to just sit there and wait

02:02:31   Whereas if you're you know want to listen to music for the next 90 minutes and you don't have any of it on your device

02:02:37   Right, it's you know, it's a pain in the ass if you have to sit there and wait and wait and wait and wait

02:02:41   and wait

02:02:43   Yeah, it's a little different. Yeah

02:02:45   And for the most part this stuff does still just work where you get a new device and sign it even if you don't restore

02:02:51   from a backup and you just sign into your iCloud account and you say what was that book that I book I bought and I

02:02:56   Wanted to look it back up there. It is and you hit the cloud button and just comes down

02:02:59   But it doesn't always work. Sometimes it just you know, the download gets stuck

02:03:03   so

02:03:07   What's your take on this yearly update thing

02:03:10   You know

02:03:14   John Gruber in

02:03:16   2003 seem to think it was a great idea. I

02:03:20   I think what like what would be your like how would you frame this discussion now? You know if you had to rewrite this piece?

02:03:25   Well, not the whole piece. I wouldn't I think that they I think that they should go they there

02:03:31   I think the annual pace is probably fine and actually probably helps keep them in check

02:03:37   But I think that they should consider doing less per year and polishing more

02:03:42   And if they can figure out a way to let some ideas

02:03:48   operate, you know, well if you get it done then you're in but if you don't but then maybe not

02:03:55   advertising them at W maybe promising less at WWDC and maybe slating some of those things for

02:04:02   a 9.2 update in March of 2016. That does make it hard for developers and it makes it hard for

02:04:12   customer well more importantly from Apple perspective customers right like you need to I

02:04:16   I think the reason that they stick to hard version numbers is that that is the gate for functionality.

02:04:25   Right. And it is. And so many other things are annual at Apple, the phones come out on an annual basis.

02:04:32   And for competitive reasons, they really do need to, because their competitors come out with new Apple only come out with one set of new phones every year is slow compared to everybody else in the industry.

02:04:42   Oh, yeah, it's and it was a glacial but it's

02:04:46   It's deliberative delivered in an industry where there's not much deliberation where it's sort of

02:04:52   Soon, you know if you can ship it, let's ship it and see if people will buy it

02:04:56   But Apple is very deliberative and they have to be but then they run into things where if they're gonna sell a hundred million of

02:05:02   The same thing a year they need to be able to have a hundred million of every single component

02:05:06   You know, they need to have a hundred million a eight systems on a chip and a hundred million

02:05:12   Of the new you know HD retina displays in two different sizes etc etc every single thing in the box

02:05:19   But the hardware runs on doesn't run on a yearly cycle though

02:05:24   That's the thing they come out with one every year

02:05:26   But they're in the works for longer than a year a lot longer than a year

02:05:30   Which is why it's taken them a little bit too longer than the market would dictate to come out with bigger phones

02:05:36   Because it's you know if it takes two years to make a new iPhone

02:05:39   They didn't get to commit to these phones until about two years ago

02:05:43   Like the iPhone 7 or whatever you want to call it two years. Maybe a big window. Yeah, but it's more than a year

02:05:49   Oh, yeah, it's so maybe it's not quite two years. Maybe it's been more like for something

02:05:54   But but the team that's doing next year's iPhones is already, you know long, you know

02:06:00   They've been at work for you know, six seven eight months. The specs are already out there. I don't know. I mean

02:06:04   I'm sure you know, but just listen, it's out there

02:06:07   It's kind of funny when you talk to people who work at Apple because they have no idea what happened in what release

02:06:12   No, they literally did like oh was that in that one. I don't know

02:06:16   Blur's together more for them. Yeah, it's like I was done with that six months a year before yeah

02:06:24   I mean you ever saw it so right yeah

02:06:27   Yeah, and that they don't they don't even know what it's gonna be called. They have no idea

02:06:32   They honestly don't yeah

02:06:33   No, and so that really is what confuses it for them historically is that while they were working on stuff

02:06:38   They don't know what it was going to be called and so in hindsight when they look back like two three years

02:06:44   They don't they just know it was a mystery. Can't remember what product something shipped in they have no idea

02:06:49   You have to remind them and they're like, oh really that's interesting. Yeah

02:06:54   So no, I don't think the annual schedule is off, but I think that they need to pace themselves better

02:07:00   I don't know and but again like I said, maybe the optimistic take is that iOS 8 because it introduced all this

02:07:06   You think this was an aggressive release followed?

02:07:10   That preceded by another guess of really yeah, yeah

02:07:15   Maybe that'd be great. Yeah, I

02:07:19   Think it's it'll be interesting to see how Yosemite comes out. I I've been running the GM

02:07:25   I

02:07:27   I think it's pretty good, but I don't know.

02:07:29   I like it. I have some weird aesthetic choices about it, but whatever.

02:07:34   Yeah, but in terms of quality, I don't think it's going to be a problem like iOS 8. Famous last words.

02:07:39   Yeah, exactly.

02:07:41   Famous last words, I guess, but I don't think so. I think the changes are mostly skin deep.

02:07:47   Yeah, and while I have some issues with it, I don't think you're going to be

02:07:53   Viting at the most the last

02:07:56   blur

02:07:58   Pieces right? No, no, like it's it's weird, but I don't think you need to you know, take the knives out of that one

02:08:05   No, and I think it also passes the every time I go back to Mavericks now, I think it looks really outdated

02:08:11   Yeah, yeah, and the hilarious thing is that it brings me back to Windows Vista

02:08:17   Which did the blur thing right years ago and whoever did that?

02:08:22   that if you're listening and you find me, I will buy you lots of beers because…

02:08:29   Who did the Vista one?

02:08:31   Yeah, the Vista Blur.

02:08:33   That sucks for that guy.

02:08:34   We all laughed at him.

02:08:37   And now iOS and macOS are just totally like, "Yeah, let's blur everything."

02:08:42   All of the time.

02:08:43   Everything is blurry.

02:08:45   And that guy is just…

02:08:46   If he's not at the bottom of a glass, he should be.

02:08:51   There is.

02:08:52   We've already been two hours. We should wrap it up and I want to wait till Yosemite actually ships before really getting yeah

02:08:57   Yeah, but there is some weird stuff though where the way that Apple's doing it doesn't make any fucking sense

02:09:04   Right, and I know you're gonna agree with me. The main thing is that what you have a translucent sidebar the whole sidebar is

02:09:10   Translucent in whatever. Yeah, it reflects the color of your desktop

02:09:15   Regardless of how many windows are in between the front window and the desktop it

02:09:20   It's completely random. I don't know. I want to talk to you who did this

02:09:25   So like let's just say you have an orange desktop

02:09:28   I've got a machine here right now with with the the the carpet from the shiny

02:09:32   But it only does it when the window is the frontmost window. Otherwise, it's completely opaque, right?

02:09:38   Anyway, yeah, it is

02:09:43   People I well people I'm good people are gonna hear my description and then they're gonna file it away

02:09:49   And I think I can't quite be like that

02:09:51   But then everybody's gonna upgrade to Yosemite in a couple of weeks a week or two and then they're gonna

02:09:55   Oh my god Gruber was right, but it's like so if you just just imagine you have one window open

02:10:01   That's it

02:10:01   And that's how Apple all their screenshots show just one window at a time this translucent part shows the colors

02:10:07   Blurred shows the colors of your underlying desktop picture through so if you have like an orange desktop pattern, it's orange blurry

02:10:16   But then if you have windows in between the front window and the desktop and they're all white like let's just say they're all

02:10:23   Text edit windows, but they're all stacked on top of each other. The sidebar is still orange

02:10:28   It's somehow

02:10:30   Right I

02:10:33   Can imagine the discussion that led to this where I can imagine a discussion where the idea was started

02:10:39   We'll make it you know

02:10:40   We'll make it see-through will make it translucent and it was all based on just like one window on the desktop and then somebody

02:10:46   was like, but what if you have windows in between in the background?

02:10:49   I love that that's the objection.

02:10:50   Right?

02:10:51   But what if there was more than one window?

02:10:54   Right.

02:10:55   And instead of saying –

02:10:56   That's pretty much where you should start, right?

02:10:57   Right.

02:10:58   They would just be like, well, then it would be – it'll just be gray.

02:11:01   And then somebody was like, well, then that'll be dull.

02:11:04   And it will lose that – what's that phrase they keep using?

02:11:06   That it shows the character of your desktop, you know, in front of your window.

02:11:10   And then somebody said, well, it'll still show your desktop colors right through.

02:11:15   And then they that's what they made happen. I

02:11:19   Don't understand there's no logic to it, right?

02:11:24   Maybe and maybe that's a you know

02:11:27   Maybe that knowing two people like you and I but right because I want to see I want it to work like

02:11:33   Somehow like I need to understand it visually and spatially, right? Yeah, I want there to be rules

02:11:38   I want it to be like a game but that there are rules and if this is see-through then it should show

02:11:45   whatever is behind it. I totally agree with you. The rules are completely fucking arbitrary at this

02:11:50   point. Like now I'm looking at the programming. Like, restrictions have been placed on this,

02:11:58   that, you know, I can't wrap my head around. I can guess why the choices were made, but

02:12:09   aesthetically I can't explain it. Yeah, I'm not sure. I also, I do feel too, I feel like I'll

02:12:15   predict that the other backlash is going to be that Helvetica as a system font really is pretty

02:12:24   choppy on non-retina displays. And it's, this is the, what you're seeing in Yosemite, I guess

02:12:32   there's no name for it really. There's not like a name for the theme anymore. It's not like called

02:12:36   anything but the Yosemite you know look and feel the chrome is it's forward

02:12:41   thinking to when all Macs are gonna have retina quality displays which I think is

02:12:46   reasonable I mean and I think you're trying to avoid like aqua no way or

02:12:50   something right yeah it's a it's it's a different thing yeah I think it's the

02:12:55   right time and it's again it just you know it's like you said with the whole

02:12:58   compositing system in Mac OS 10 10.0 right I take your lumps right you gotta

02:13:03   - Take your lumps. - Right, take your lumps,

02:13:05   but then when the hardware catches up,

02:13:06   we'll already be ready.

02:13:08   And I feel like the whole Yosemite look and feel

02:13:12   is so clearly optimized for retina

02:13:15   and then made secondhand to look as good as possible

02:13:18   on non-retina, as opposed to the other way around,

02:13:21   where up until now, the Mac interface

02:13:23   has been non-retina first,

02:13:25   and then it just looks kind of weird on retina.

02:13:28   Not that it looks low res,

02:13:29   but that it just are odd decisions.

02:13:32   isn't quite suitable, yeah. No, I totally agree. And this is, I am sitting in front

02:13:38   of a Mac Pro, more or less the most expensive computer you could buy from Apple, and I don't

02:13:46   have the written screen. And I'm kind of bummed out by the, you know, Yosemite look.

02:13:54   One day, hopefully soon, I'll be able to upgrade. But no, I totally agree with you

02:13:59   I think it's fine. I think every now and then there's going to be a jump and something is going to be degraded.

02:14:07   And to bring it back to the Fireball piece that we talked about previously and Techno 2034,

02:14:16   every now and then you take your lumps. You take a step back and it lets you sort of move into the future a little bit more.

02:14:28   And I think Yosemite is one of those kind of releases.

02:14:30   Yeah, I agree.

02:14:32   Yeah, I'll have to link.

02:14:34   I'll put it in the show notes.

02:14:35   I'll link up that.

02:14:36   You really should.

02:14:37   You know what?

02:14:37   It's a great article.

02:14:38   And I disagree with like 90% of this.

02:14:41   Well, because it's easy to say now.

02:14:46   And I did it, I did at the time, but I can't prove it.

02:14:48   But like a lot of this is like provably wrong, right?

02:14:52   Or at least history didn't bear you out.

02:14:54   But this is, I kept reading you.

02:14:57   And this is one of the reasons why I'm like, this is, this is a very smart piece.

02:15:02   Very well considered.

02:15:03   I disagree with the conclusions.

02:15:04   A lot of it though, is our stuff that could never really be settled.

02:15:08   Yeah, I know.

02:15:09   I grew up with that too.

02:15:10   The file name extensions, file name extensions is perfect.

02:15:12   And the, the file paths is another one.

02:15:15   The file path thing was just stupid.

02:15:17   I could, I could do another show about all of this.

02:15:20   Yes.

02:15:21   Yeah.

02:15:21   I remember at some point, I mean, we had, we had software updaters in the

02:15:25   nineties for the classic Mac OS.

02:15:27   Mac OS that no matter where you put the application on your hard disk, if you ran

02:15:30   the updater, it would find it because it would find the app by an identifier and

02:15:36   then update the app to the latest version.

02:15:38   So you didn't have to put it in a special folder.

02:15:39   And then I remember, I forget which app it was, if it was iPhoto or one of the

02:15:44   iTunes or iPhoto, but the next guys wrote an updater in like 2002 or 2003 or so.

02:15:51   So do you know what?

02:15:53   It's the very next article.

02:15:55   It's the very next article on Daring Fireball called Finding Abby.

02:15:59   You had your knives out for--

02:16:02   Yeah, I did.

02:16:02   --to opinion.

02:16:03   I don't know why, but you did.

02:16:06   Yeah, you'd run the iTunes updater, and it would nuke your whole hard drive.

02:16:13   If you had renamed your hard disk.

02:16:16   If you'd done anything clever at all, it would nuke your hard drive,

02:16:20   which is awesome.

02:16:21   Because it was making assumptions about the paths.

02:16:23   Yeah.

02:16:24   Oh, totally.

02:16:25   It was awful.

02:16:25   There were rough times.

02:16:26   You know what though?

02:16:27   I'm going to try to address this obliquely.

02:16:33   A friend of ours who went on to manage iMessage, Game Center, and all of that kind

02:16:39   of stuff.

02:16:40   Do you know the guy I'm talking about?

02:16:42   Yeah, I know exactly.

02:16:43   Okay.

02:16:43   So apparently, my belief is one of his first gigs was like, the can't the guy

02:16:51   that wrote that installer and his thing was to fix it.

02:16:53   It's great, right?

02:17:01   I feel bad.

02:17:04   I know.

02:17:05   I feel bad.

02:17:06   I don't want to be…

02:17:07   I mean, mistakes happen.

02:17:08   I really…

02:17:09   I'm not laughing at the guy.

02:17:10   I'm just laughing at the circumstance.

02:17:11   Like, shit happens.

02:17:13   You know what?

02:17:14   I was…

02:17:15   Like, the way that you say I really had it out for Avi Tavanian back then.

02:17:17   I don't know why you did.

02:17:18   I really don't.

02:17:19   I didn't understand it.

02:17:20   I don't know either.

02:17:21   Yeah.

02:17:22   It was immature even in my 30s. Yeah

02:17:26   Well, it was pennies dude, he's done like a great stuff right? Yeah, and in hindsight, you know

02:17:35   It was you know help turn Apple around, you know

02:17:37   Yeah

02:17:37   And and you know what and I even I even acknowledged in the article even acknowledged in the article that the classic Mac OS updates

02:17:44   Yes

02:17:46   next reunification him and they were outstanding like

02:17:51   Eight to nine for whatever.

02:17:54   - Yeah, but especially 8.0 and 8.1, I think--

02:17:58   - 8.5 was, whoa, okay, maybe 8.1.

02:18:01   8.5 was big 'cause I think it put quick draw on PowerPC.

02:18:06   - Yeah.

02:18:08   - And I'm definitely iffy with my classic Mac OS history,

02:18:12   but there was a lot of good work down there, like a lot.

02:18:17   And it was all under him.

02:18:18   - Yeah.

02:18:19   - And then you just come out.

02:18:21   But I acknowledge that though.

02:18:22   But they, you know, they don't understand what the animosity was.

02:18:26   Well, you know, file extensions.

02:18:30   Was it like a, just a narrative device or, which is cool.

02:18:38   I don't know.

02:18:39   I was a little bit, and I was a little bit more, um, less hesitant to go a little

02:18:47   over the top, you know, to, to fill the glass all the way up.

02:18:50   Because I didn't have a big audience. It was a very small audience

02:18:55   I didn't like I would never have expected that he'd he'd read what I wrote and maybe he did

02:19:00   I don't know but I you know, whereas now today

02:19:02   I know that if I wrote something like that that whoever it is with an apple would read it and not that I'm afraid

02:19:06   To write anything critical of someone at Apple, but it would be more measured, right?

02:19:10   Yeah, I want to have my ducks in a row and make sure that it is right. It is not over the top

02:19:15   I want it to be at the exact right level of

02:19:19   Yeah, these two posts to me are literally fireballs

02:19:23   Yeah, which is not to say that you don't love them

02:19:26   now and I don't mean to take that away from me, but this is just

02:19:31   Yeah, it's like a bit more headstrong than I think you would be now

02:19:35   I think you'd be more measured and it's like my answer, right?

02:19:39   It's like my my use of the word jackass where I was. Yeah, I used to be freer with it

02:19:44   Yeah, and I don't think I ever once used it. Maybe there's one time where I regretted it a little bit

02:19:49   But I miss those jackass of the week was funny

02:19:51   It was funny, but and it was usually people being jackasses

02:19:55   But it got to the point where I realized though that a lot of people who I would call jackass of the week when you googled

02:20:00   Them the first hit was me calling them a jackass. This is horrible. You don't mean that

02:20:05   I don't but I did mean no

02:20:07   But I always meant though that when I said someone was being a jackass that they were literally being a jackass

02:20:13   They were being willfully ignorant or will deceitful is that it was particular choice is bad doesn't mean that they're

02:20:19   You don't type that right, but I usually come up with like oh, they're a jackass like that

02:20:24   I use it way less frequently now though because I know that I've you know

02:20:28   Daring fireball is more widely read and more influential. Yeah, I know that was a conscious decision though, right? Right, right

02:20:34   and it's the same way where if my criticism of like an Apple executive or something like that is

02:20:38   Try I try to be more measured now

02:20:42   But without being you know, I don't want to be dull and I don't hold back. No, no

02:20:48   Best way I can put it is I don't want to go over the top. I want to get right to the top

02:20:52   I want to make sure it's accurate

02:20:54   Whereas in the early days I would felt free to go over the top because I didn't feel that there were any repercussions from it

02:20:59   yeah, and I am I don't mean to be blog critic, but

02:21:03   So the second piece about Ivy

02:21:06   Immediately after the other one finding Ivy

02:21:10   literally starts with a handful of readers emailed to complain about Monday's mixed review of

02:21:15   Aubrey Tabinian's legacy at Apple's vice president of software engineering.

02:21:20   And you addressed it head on, which is one of the reasons I'm like, man, I fucking totally disagree

02:21:29   with this guy, but good work.

02:21:32   You know?

02:21:33   Boy, those articles are way down in the archives.

02:21:37   Yeah.

02:21:38   They're way back and it's totally unfair to hold them to you.

02:21:41   I will link them up.

02:21:42   All right, we should end the show, but I will put them in the show notes, or at least I'll

02:21:45   put one in the show notes and then if anybody wants to read them, you can keep reading next

02:21:49   previous article to read the time.

02:21:53   What was the time?

02:21:54   2003?

02:21:55   Yeah, it was like a long time ago.

02:21:58   Well, I can just search for his name.

02:22:00   Yeah.

02:22:01   Audiosafie.

02:22:02   Fine.

02:22:03   Thank you.

02:22:04   You're such a dick.

02:22:05   It was awesome.

02:22:07   So this is very oblique and probably pretty inside baseball.

02:22:12   I loved that Ben flip-flopped his opinion on the watch introduction.

02:22:21   I thought that was great. I really did. And it speaks, I mean,

02:22:26   I'm only bringing it up because I've read these articles back in the day and I

02:22:31   was like, I disagree with a lot of this.

02:22:33   And I sometimes read Ben's pieces and I'm like, kind of disagree, but so well thought

02:22:41   out.

02:22:42   Like, good, you know, smart guy.

02:22:45   Very, very smart guy.

02:22:46   Yeah, no, it reminds me of the thing I just liked two weeks ago linked to a Jason Fried

02:22:51   piece where he, you know, Bezos was addressing 30, well it's not Basecamp now, not 37signals,

02:22:59   but came in and did like a Q&A.

02:23:01   He's you know, I'm sure he's not the first person to say it

02:23:03   But here's how you can be right most of the time be willing to change your mind. Yeah, I love that

02:23:07   Yeah, you know because you'll be wrong and then you'll change your mind and then it kid

02:23:11   It's just funny and Ben Ben did that with a watch where Ben, you know had a sort of almost scathing

02:23:17   Initial take on it and then we could talk to himself into being one of the biggest proponents out there, right?

02:23:23   And there was a similar thing with Steve Jobs and Tim Cook and

02:23:30   You know came out after Steve died, but like Tim's first, you know, D whatever conference, you know

02:23:36   He said he was he was the world's biggest flip-flop er and waffler in the world

02:23:40   But that's what made him great was one day. He'd tell you this is a terrible idea

02:23:44   It's awful and then he come in the next day and say I have a great idea and it was your idea. Yeah

02:23:48   That you know that his refute, you know that he was open to anything, you know, we're never gonna make an iTunes for Windows

02:23:56   Okay, we'll make iTunes for Windows and then you know, I you know iPod from Windows becomes, you know a huge hit

02:24:02   Over and over and over again and then you know

02:24:06   It just comes up with people who you know have quotes of Steve Jobs saying that you know

02:24:10   Eight inch tablets are a terrible idea or you know big nobody's ever gonna buy a big phone

02:24:14   But it's proof that Apple is doing things. They wouldn't have done under Steve Jobs. No, I mean it's you know

02:24:20   The market changes, you know, no, I took it. Well, it's not even market. I mean

02:24:24   Good lines change. Yeah, I exactly that's a good way of putting it. I think there is a huge I

02:24:32   Think it is an error to canonize Steve Jobs

02:24:36   brilliant guy I don't want to take them away from him, but

02:24:40   You know his is not the word of God like it's not set in stone

02:24:46   Well, it's that word the the word from the you know again not to get bringing too much actual religion into it

02:24:52   but with the Catholic Church, infallibility.

02:24:55   Right, exactly.

02:24:55   Yeah, he's not the pope of the…

02:24:57   Right, the pope is held as infallible.

02:25:00   And, you know, it's a real problem, because, you know, human beings aren't actually infallible.

02:25:07   But there's a tendency among many to view.

02:25:09   And it's funny because it comes from both sides, though.

02:25:12   It also comes from, like, even like the diehard Android types, who say, "I thought Steve Jobs was infallible."

02:25:20   And he said nobody would buy a five inch phone.

02:25:22   Nitpicking effectively, which is like...

02:25:24   Right.

02:25:24   Yeah.

02:25:25   And, you know, and it's also combined with the fact that what's true in 2011 is not true in 2014.

02:25:30   Right.

02:25:31   So, I mean, I believe this is in your Twitter stream somewhere.

02:25:37   Uh, you know, there was a guy telling Neaton Ginnatra that Apple doesn't behave in a certain way.

02:25:46   And, you know, Neaton Van, the Iowa...

02:25:49   He was the director of iOS apps.

02:25:52   And I think that there's a projected view of the way that Apple does and does not

02:26:01   operate and where it will innovate and where it will just, I don't mean just, but

02:26:12   where it adopts the common implementation, for lack of a better word, the compatibility option.

02:26:23   And I think with the file extensions and the credit codes and all of that, I think Apple did cave from something that might have been better,

02:26:35   but they caved in order to achieve compatibility,

02:26:41   and I noticed that you put that in quotes in one of your tweets,

02:26:45   but a compatibility with a broader computing world.

02:26:49   And they did so in order to achieve the ability to communicate with the outside world better.

02:26:57   Which I think was a smart choice given the time, right?

02:27:01   communicating was just about to become essential.

02:27:07   I agree with that to some degree. I would at least say that there's a, it wasn't an

02:27:12   unreasonable, the other side of the argument wasn't unreasonable.

02:27:15   No I don't think so, which is why I read you in Syracuse and I was like.

02:27:19   It was different sets of trade-offs and what do you value more and I just, you know, you

02:27:24   know, and again you might be right though that in the long run it worked out better

02:27:27   going with those decisions then. And you know, one of the reasons why is that ultimately we resulted

02:27:34   with iOS where the actual file system is hidden. Right. Which I think Neaton is a big proponent of.

02:27:41   Yeah. That's fine to me because then it doesn't matter if under the hood it's a case-sensitive

02:27:48   file system with file extensions, which I think it still is. I know it was for a while.

02:27:52   Yeah, it is. It is. Yeah, it's still case sensitive.

02:27:55   Which is fine. I would argue against that vehemently if they ever did that with the Mac,

02:27:59   where the file system matters. Well, that's because it's exposed to you.

02:28:03   But right. And to usual users, right? Right. You know, I can conceive of a Mac 10 years from now,

02:28:09   or maybe even less, maybe five years from now, where it's the file system is only for people

02:28:14   who've installed Xcode. Right. So I have a difference between the presentation versus

02:28:20   the representation, right? Where the presentation is what you see as a user, and the representation

02:28:25   what is actually happening on disk.

02:28:28   And I think file systems in a lot of ways

02:28:30   have often favored exposing a representation

02:28:35   of exactly what's happening,

02:28:38   rather than projecting a view

02:28:43   that is more useful to the user.

02:28:46   - In my analogy on file system, on file name extensions,

02:28:50   as a user exposed feature, it's always been that--

02:28:54   They're bullshit. It's awful.

02:28:56   It's two pieces of data in one field, separated by an arbor, just a piece of text, just a dot.

02:29:06   Well, there's a turret sitting there between the two.

02:29:08   Right. And so it's easily, you know, it is easily changed, you know, if you want to, but it, you know,

02:29:16   I can't tell you how many times I've talked to people who thought that the way you convert a ping to a JPEG is to erase the PNG and type JPG.

02:29:24   Do you know what? That should actually work.

02:29:26   - It should in theory.

02:29:27   That would be amazing if it worked.

02:29:28   I could see, you know, again.

02:29:30   - The Finder should do that.

02:29:31   That should work.

02:29:32   - It should say, "I noticed you did that.

02:29:35   Would you like me to change this to a JPEG?"

02:29:36   That would be amazing.

02:29:37   But guess what?

02:29:39   That doesn't actually happen, and it didn't happen there.

02:29:42   But people, I can see why to a normal person,

02:29:44   it should work.

02:29:45   And to me, it's just like, well,

02:29:47   why not put the creation and modification date in there too?

02:29:50   And then you have to have a date and a name

02:29:52   and a file extension all in one field.

02:29:54   - Ah, you're just being a jackass.

02:29:56   - No, it's the exact same.

02:29:58   It's all-- - I understand, okay.

02:30:00   I understand it's the same thing.

02:30:02   - The file system has always had a field

02:30:04   for the creation date and the modification date,

02:30:06   and it's different from the name.

02:30:08   And it never had a field for the type, and it should've.

02:30:12   - I mean, do you wanna go over the history of this?

02:30:14   - No, but I'm just saying that two pieces of data

02:30:17   in the same field is a clued.

02:30:19   And the Mac didn't suffer from that.

02:30:21   The Mac had something that was more graceful.

02:30:23   And it wasn't built for the future, and it wasn't built for compatibility with anybody

02:30:27   else.

02:30:28   But they should have only replaced it with something that was better, not with something

02:30:32   that was more primitive.

02:30:34   I think file name extensions were...

02:30:39   You used to be able to name a file, and whatever type it was didn't matter.

02:30:44   It was assumed that you'd be able to feed it into the correct app.

02:30:48   This is before GUIs, you know, old school stuff, right?

02:30:52   When it became apparent that we would have file formats that would work in not just one application,

02:31:02   but in multiple applications, extensions were born, right?

02:31:08   And the way that that got addressed was just being literally appended to the end of the file name.

02:31:14   It's the most pragmatic workman-like thing you can do.

02:31:22   It was so obvious and so basic that I think pretty much universally it was adopted.

02:31:29   The Mac tried to throw it off, and I think ultimately it failed because it didn't command

02:31:37   the market share that could really make it happen.

02:31:41   You know what I mean?

02:31:42   Well, no, but it wasn't really a problem for Mac users though.

02:31:45   So when you download, in the old days, when you would download a GIF file,

02:31:50   and on the server that it was coming from, it didn't have any type code

02:31:55   because it wasn't a Mac server. It would just come down.

02:31:57   Whatever software you downloaded with would look at the file extension

02:32:01   and just put the right creator code on. Or not creator code, type code.

02:32:05   Well, wait, it would look at the file extension or would it look at the MIME type given by the server?

02:32:10   Yeah, probably the MIME type.

02:32:13   And all the browsers did it, all the FTP clients did it.

02:32:17   It wasn't as much of a problem as you would think it was.

02:32:21   It was not an issue.

02:32:22   No, no, no.

02:32:23   I'm saying this is why the file name extension thing exists and why…

02:32:28   I think you can explain it to anybody and anybody would get it.

02:32:32   Yeah.

02:32:33   But I just…

02:32:34   In hindsight, to me, the big thing isn't which side was right.

02:32:37   it's that everybody was wrong because giving users access to the file system

02:32:41   was wrong in the first place.

02:32:43   I agree with you 100%.

02:32:45   Yeah.

02:32:46   Right.

02:32:46   And it was what level of technical ability are you expecting the people who do

02:32:50   have access to the file system to have?

02:32:52   Well, so wait, so wait, I agree with you, but I don't think it was wrong

02:32:58   so much as a necessity at the time.

02:33:02   I mean, the first Mac ships you've got what?

02:33:06   What was it?

02:33:07   640K?

02:33:08   No, more than that.

02:33:10   Our note was 128K.

02:33:12   128K?

02:33:13   Yeah?

02:33:14   Okay.

02:33:15   So whatever it was, you didn't have the resources in order to abstract a storage system away,

02:33:24   right?

02:33:25   And I'm sure that was not even on their minds.

02:33:28   I can't believe this is what we're arguing about.

02:33:30   I don't know if we're arguing.

02:33:31   No, not really.

02:33:32   But here's another factor, too.

02:33:33   So the Technote 2034 said use file extensions.

02:33:38   I think it said use it instead of type in crater code.

02:33:42   I'm not sure.

02:33:43   Yeah, it was.

02:33:44   But the problem that it ran into is that it broke the way millions of actual Mac users

02:33:50   were using their Macs.

02:33:51   And Mac users did things.

02:33:53   They did.

02:33:54   No, it's adorable.

02:33:55   Millions?

02:33:56   That's how many sell in a quarter these days.

02:33:58   Oh, I know.

02:33:59   It's a very small number.

02:34:00   I mean it was for a long, long time,

02:34:03   the estimated user base of active Mac users hovered

02:34:07   and that's dangerous when it hovers instead of grows

02:34:10   at about 20 million.

02:34:11   - Yeah, I'm gonna guess that you do that

02:34:14   in a quarter or two these days.

02:34:16   - Yeah, well, yeah, it's like four to five million a quarter

02:34:20   I think they sell.

02:34:21   - So okay, so maybe a year you'll, anyway.

02:34:24   - Who knows how many are really customers though.

02:34:27   But the idea, but--

02:34:28   The hand wringing over that person.

02:34:30   And whatever.

02:34:32   I'll let you finish.

02:34:33   People, as a graphic designer, as an artist, you assume that you could have files with the same extension that would open when you double click them would open in different apps.

02:34:42   You know, that the ones you created in Photoshop would open in Photoshop and the ones you created in, I don't know, Debabilizer would open in Debabilizer.

02:34:50   I think that's a great feature.

02:34:51   I think it's a mis feature when you send that file over the network and somebody tries to click it and

02:34:57   Right. I totally agree.

02:34:59   You don't have that app. I'm like, I don't care. I want to open my app, right?

02:35:04   Yeah, I totally agree with that. It did make some problems like that. But it was just, again, it's trade-offs.

02:35:11   Is it better for me? Is it better for me to be able to have all my files open right in the app I made them with?

02:35:16   Or is it better for you when I give them to you that they have the right code?

02:35:19   Right. I feel like we could hit a middle, Grant, where it's like if you strip off the created code during transmit.

02:35:24   panic plug transmission, like copying it to another computer, it would be fine.

02:35:31   And you'd get a new one based on your preferences when it came out.

02:35:34   Yeah, it would be the default. There would be no created code, whatever the default is.

02:35:37   But the main point, to zoom back out, the main point though is that none of these people, none of the graphic design workflows

02:35:41   should not have been built around direct access to the computer file system.

02:35:44   There should have been something a little bit more abstracted.

02:35:47   And the way iOS has gone is ideal, and it makes everybody happy.

02:35:51   I think so. I agree. I mean, it's literally a fresh reboot, right? And, you know, there's been

02:35:58   missteps. Yeah, but well, and it's taken a while to get there. Like, and that's, you know, the

02:36:02   whole iOS document picking thing, which is what everybody brings up is up. Now we're back with

02:36:06   a file system. It's not the file system. It's a file system. Like, what did you call it? Projection,

02:36:11   projection. And I actually, I don't pat myself on the back that often. But I really think that

02:36:19   the projection is the right way to think about this kind of stuff like that. iCloud Drive

02:36:24   on Yosemite does it. I think that this is not, we are not looking at the file system.

02:36:31   We are looking at a projection of data just as if you pulled up the photo picker. You

02:36:39   don't think about the files, you think about the photos you've got. And I think that this

02:36:44   is the better way forward.

02:36:46   Right. And it's not confusing. It might be limiting. It still is limiting. And until the document picker, it was definitely limiting.

02:36:54   Because to open the same image on iOS that was in your camera roll, to open it in Afterlight or VSCO cam, you would make a copy of it and import it into their thing.

02:37:05   And then they would open it. And then if you wanted to save it back out, you'd have to save a new copy back to the photo roll.

02:37:10   You've got three copies now, your original, the one in VSCO cam, and the one that was

02:37:15   the filtered version saved back to your camera roll.

02:37:18   Obviously inefficient, but it didn't, you know, it was inefficient, but it didn't, you

02:37:23   know, at least protected people from blowing their photos apart.

02:37:28   And the new way, you know, is better.

02:37:30   It's way cooler that you can just open it right up in VSCO cam and it saves right back

02:37:34   to the same camera roll.

02:37:36   know it's great but it was it that's what that's the ultimate goal all along

02:37:45   the whole you know idea that users are not going to have direct access to the

02:37:49   file system because so many things could go bad and to me the most telltale sign

02:37:53   that it was that the file name extensions were a bad idea in the Mac

02:37:56   was that they immediately defaulted to hiding them yeah and that in 10.0 I mean

02:38:03   And it came pretty quick, right?

02:38:04   I think it was in 10.0 where the file name extensions were hidden.

02:38:08   And it made people so confused because on the old Mac, in classic Mac OS, if you had

02:38:13   a file named portrait.jpg, it didn't have to have the .jpg.

02:38:20   So you could just have – you didn't need the file extension.

02:38:22   It could be a JPEG, but it would just be named portrait.

02:38:25   And if you had another file and you wanted to convert it to a different format like ping

02:38:29   or something like that, you couldn't give it the same name.

02:38:32   You couldn't have two files named portrait in the same folder because it's a file system

02:38:35   that couldn't do it.

02:38:36   Whereas all of a sudden in Mac OS X, you could have portrait.jpg and portrait.png in the

02:38:41   same folder and they both said portrait and they both look like the same image.

02:38:45   And because the file extension is hidden, you can't tell which is yes.

02:38:48   Right.

02:38:49   So, you know, you're just talking yourself in circles when you start saying that we can

02:38:53   do it and then to avoid the confusion we'll hide it and hiding things is never the right

02:38:58   idea.

02:38:59   So I agree with you and I did at the time I just think it's a pragmatic solution, right?

02:39:05   But you know the truth is I the reason I'll say that it was we're all we're but just wrong fighting over

02:39:11   Which ways to be wrong because Mac users?

02:39:13   Foot Mac users shot themselves in the foot with the file system - they just did it in different ways than

02:39:18   Unix and Windows I I just I I

02:39:21   Feel that there is as yet an unsolved problem here

02:39:27   But I don't think exposing file systems is the way to go basically.

02:39:33   Yeah.

02:39:34   No. It's a developer. The file system is a developer level.

02:39:37   Yeah.

02:39:37   Anything else? We should wrap up.

02:39:40   I'm kind of bored of you.

02:39:42   Yeah, me too. Good thing we're running into each other in three days.

02:39:45   I know. Yeah. It's gonna be a good weekend.

02:39:48   Well, at least we got all the nerd talk out of the way.

02:39:52   Yeah, exactly.

02:39:53   Let me, let's give a big pitch to the podcast because you're doing amazing, amazing work

02:40:01   that you've dropped a couple references to it, but you've got a series, and this is on

02:40:05   debug.

02:40:06   Debug, yeah.

02:40:08   Where you've got Nitin-

02:40:09   Nitin Ganatra.

02:40:11   Nitin Ganatra.

02:40:14   Don Melton.

02:40:15   Don Melton.

02:40:16   Now, Don Melton, you guys might know, he left Apple recently.

02:40:18   was the head of the WebKit and Safari and adds a super colorful history in the industry

02:40:26   and one of the best storytellers I've ever heard. And these are epic, epic podcasts that

02:40:33   you guys have recorded with them. Part one was two hours and you just did a part two

02:40:37   yesterday?

02:40:38   Yeah, so I mean we sat down with Neaton in June and I was, as every podcast I'm like,

02:40:48   "Man, am I going to get an hour out of this interview?" I don't know if you do, like,

02:40:53   do you ever do a cold interview where you're like, "Hey, I hope I get an hour out of this."

02:40:57   And then it's, forget it, it ran. And so we had like three episodes with Neaton totaling

02:41:04   over six hours, which is horrible. And then we put Don Melton and Neaton together in Gannatra

02:41:12   together and we had another two hour episode and we just recorded another two hours yesterday.

02:41:19   Right. And Neaton's a guy who's, you know, again, you don't want to make assumptions

02:41:24   about how things work inside Apple. But like you said, he was at one point he was the head

02:41:27   of iOS apps, right? What the...

02:41:29   He literally came up from working on all kinds of old school Apple stuff.

02:41:35   Right.

02:41:36   Through doing carbon.

02:41:37   Through the carbon file manager.

02:41:39   Like seriously low level carbon stuff.

02:41:41   Like the carbon file manager.

02:41:43   He's brilliant.

02:41:45   We may cut this out of the show, but they've both been at the same top 100 meeting at Apple.

02:41:54   Right.

02:41:55   Right.

02:41:56   you know if you want to hear some more people speak about Apple a little bit

02:42:01   more freely than you're used to because they're not at Apple anymore they're not

02:42:04   allowed out there and you know Renee and especially Renee but myself too we we

02:42:11   afford them a place where they can just speak freely and we'll cut anything in

02:42:17   retrospect they they made right now one have said so that's it the the debug

02:42:22   So, Debug Podcast is www.

02:42:24   Yeah, iMore.com/debug.

02:42:25   Yeah, iMore.com/debug.

02:42:26   And that's like the only project that I'm willing to really plug because it's got very

02:42:33   little to do with me and has like the guests are amazing.

02:42:37   Okay.

02:42:38   I was going to give you Vector too, but if you just want to do it.

02:42:41   Yeah, if you want to do Vector, okay.

02:42:43   That's for you.

02:42:44   I'll keep quiet with that.

02:42:46   Whiskus is on that too.

02:42:47   Oh, is he?

02:42:48   What's the one that Whiskus is on?

02:42:50   What's the one that Jesse Char was recently on?

02:42:53   Vector.

02:42:54   Oh.

02:42:55   Did you like that one?

02:42:56   I like that one.

02:42:57   Yeah, but was Whiskus on that one?

02:42:59   No, he stepped out and Jesse stepped in.

02:43:01   We just did.

02:43:02   Maybe that's why I like that one.

02:43:04   Maybe that's why you like that one.

02:43:05   Guess what?

02:43:06   You're going to like the next one.

02:43:07   Whiskus is also away.

02:43:09   Hey, Dave, please edit this kindly.

02:43:12   I know you're listening.

02:43:14   Love you, buddy.

02:43:15   The worst part is he cut in.

02:43:17   He's got the final word.

02:43:18   I know.

02:43:19   just jump in here

02:43:22   and that's also I'm more calm slash vector I mean this week is Christina

02:43:29   Warren who guess what kind of smart yeah very smart at she's imaginable I believe

02:43:36   right probably best known to readers from her bylines at mashable yeah yeah

02:43:42   where I just saw her recently where did I see her the event I guess yeah that's

02:43:48   are somewhere else but anyway yeah very very smart I believe you know sure yeah

02:43:54   she'll be it she'll be here this weekend yeah there you go well two great

02:44:00   podcasts that you host regularly and have both of them have been on fire

02:44:03   recently so anybody looking for more podcasts of girl on these lines boy I

02:44:09   can't recommend those enough and the debug ones are classic seriously I mean

02:44:13   I think that I don't mean to butter your toast here guy but honestly I think

02:44:17   I think that they're up there with some of the Andy Hertzfeld stuff in terms of, you

02:44:22   know, get those transcribed because 15, 20 years from now that's good stuff that's largely

02:44:28   been undocumented.

02:44:30   We transcribed all of them and we may be putting a collection at some point.

02:44:36   Right, because these stories are largely untold and some of them are told but only like privately,

02:44:43   but you know.

02:44:44   And again, it's not like they're burning bridges.

02:44:46   They're not spilling state secrets.

02:44:48   - No, often it's years old stuff,

02:44:50   but there's so much context and so much,

02:44:53   I think you start to understand the culture a lot more.

02:44:58   - Yeah, no, you definitely do.

02:45:00   And it's a great place to start.

02:45:02   - Thanks.

02:45:03   Again, that's not me.

02:45:06   We really just set the stage

02:45:08   and we have some great people tell some great stories.

02:45:11   - Yeah.

02:45:13   All right, Guy English, I will see you soon.

02:45:14   - Yeah, yeah.

02:45:16   this weekend.

02:45:17   Bring your wife, I like her better.

02:45:18   [