The Talk Show

93: ‘Toner-Perfect Design’ With Craig Hockenberry


00:00:00   This is going to be an interesting conversation.

00:00:02   Yeah, because we're just totally freaking guessing about everything here.

00:00:06   I, you know, it's funny. I'm not

00:00:09   totally guessing. It's, it is, it is easily, maybe the thing I wrote about iPhone screen sizes is maybe the most John Gruberian

00:00:18   thing I've ever written. Like it's

00:00:21   not totally out of the blue, but it's

00:00:24   Absolutely positively not informed by a single person who's actually seen or touched a new iPhone, right?

00:00:30   But but

00:00:34   But I have talked to some people who claim to have talked to people who have seen or touched new iPhone, right

00:00:41   So it's it's not you know

00:00:44   the big one the big one and the one that

00:00:48   and we can I

00:00:50   Don't know I think we'll do a good job of trying to explain this thing some of these things to everybody

00:00:55   But the one that to me is weird is this idea of a 750 by 1334?

00:01:00   iPhone

00:01:02   because

00:01:04   If that's the pixel count you divide by two to get the points and it they're both odd numbers

00:01:11   375 by it's six six seven

00:01:14   Yeah, and and that's a little

00:01:17   Weird not quite as weird as a phone that had odd pixels, but odd points is a little bit weird

00:01:25   Well the one that you're thinking for the

00:01:29   4.7 inch display, you know the third that's the one yeah 1334 by 750. That's just

00:01:36   Yeah, sorry well you know for people who are out there and probably not

00:01:47   What's the matter?

00:01:49   Odd numbers, even numbers?

00:01:50   All programming is like binary, right?

00:01:54   It's powers of two, on and off.

00:01:57   Everything is nicely, you can do a division by two

00:02:02   by just shifting a binary digit one place to the right.

00:02:07   Everything is just kinda really nice

00:02:10   when it's some power of two.

00:02:15   We're talking about a three, it's like, ugh.

00:02:19   And it's just, in some ways, it's a little arbitrary.

00:02:22   I mean, the factor of two, the factors of two

00:02:25   are magic numbers.

00:02:26   I've been talking to Jonas about that,

00:02:28   and he's actually gotten that down

00:02:29   with the Minecraft playing,

00:02:30   because everything in Minecraft is so pixely

00:02:33   that eight and 16 and 32 are numbers

00:02:36   that keep coming up in Minecraft,

00:02:38   and I sort of, it was an interesting conversation,

00:02:40   but I was like, you know, you're gonna find out

00:02:42   as you get more and more into video games and stuff

00:02:44   that those are those powers of two when you keep doubling our magic numbers but

00:02:49   even so even just avoiding the powers of two thing it it's just a little weird

00:02:55   because you can always split a screen in half and have two equal halves but if

00:02:59   you have an odd number now you can't right right that and that really is the

00:03:04   root of the problem right it's like and how do you Center something at that

00:03:07   point right it's you know what's half of six sixty seven you know what do you do

00:03:13   with that extra 0.5 of pixel do you right you know and it's you know or not

00:03:19   point five of a pixel is point five of point all right and you know it's a

00:03:23   little bit arbitrary because if you have an even number of points you can always

00:03:28   Center an even sized object but you couldn't Center an odd type to object

00:03:34   now it's the other way around now you can take an odd sized object and put

00:03:37   that odd pixel right in the middle of the screen so it's you know it but it

00:03:41   we're used to making things even even size widths yeah well to me if this if

00:03:50   this goes down like we think it's gonna go down it's really the end of thinking

00:03:55   about pixels yes and that really that's really the take away the and you kind of

00:04:04   see it in that the if you read between the lines you always got to read between

00:04:07   the lines between with the WWDC presentations right because they're

00:04:12   telling you stuff that's gonna happen in the fall but they can't say it's gonna

00:04:15   happen in the fall yeah and it's all this thing about you know compact versus

00:04:20   regular you know what's the what's the it's not traits it's it's it's layouts

00:04:33   yeah the display class display class yes display class that's what it is

00:04:37   They're basically saying, you know, sometimes you're going to display on a larger screen,

00:04:43   sometimes you're going to display on a more compact screen.

00:04:46   And you're going to create layouts for those two different scenarios.

00:04:49   Now what are the number of points in those two?

00:04:54   Well, you've got the iPad and the iPhone 5 right now as examples of the two cases, but...

00:05:04   There were a couple of sessions in WWDC including the

00:05:08   The State of the Union as I like to call it the technical keynote, right, you know the afternoon keynote on the good keynote

00:05:18   They're both good. Yeah, but the but the one where we all like

00:05:24   Go. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah

00:05:27   It's like a meal in reverse is because we get our dessert in the morning and then we get the meat and

00:05:33   The nourishment in the afternoon right exactly that's a very that's a great analogy actually yeah

00:05:39   Yeah, we're all still a little dizzy right exactly. We're right. We've got the sugar rush going in it's like now

00:05:46   You're giving me a steak

00:05:48   Right no all of a sudden there. I actually are putting code up on the screen, and it's like wait a second

00:05:53   I got it. I got a slow down and think here

00:05:55   but even in the technical keynote even in the state of the Union there was a little bit where they

00:06:02   Immediately it just was awkwardly phrased as to why in the world would they provide this for us unless there are

00:06:08   New size devices coming out, but there's no way in hell they were going to say anything about new size devices

00:06:14   But it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that they would add this to the SDK otherwise

00:06:19   And then in the session that I've been talking about this week session 216

00:06:23   Adaptive layouts adaptive layouts in in Apple's parlance is exact well

00:06:30   maybe not exactly analogous, but it's the same basic idea as

00:06:33   Responsive web design right right where you have one web page that scales and perhaps

00:06:41   Dramatic ways to look good on a phone on a tablet on a 30-inch display

00:06:47   Like maybe when you know a lot of responsive websites when these show up on the phone they get rid of whole things

00:06:54   They get rid of like menus or all sorts of sidebars and stuff like that and just show the text

00:07:00   Or they might move it to the bottom. They might move like sidebar material to the bottom

00:07:05   Well, that's what adaptive layout and iOS is like where you don't

00:07:08   Effectively

00:07:11   Redesign for this phone redesigned for this phone redesigned for the horizontal iPad redesigned for the vertical iPad you just

00:07:18   Set these constraints and say, you know in a dynamic fashion if it's between this and this

00:07:23   Lay it out like this and if it gets smaller than this you can just hide this control

00:07:29   Yeah, and auto layout which is the technology that underlies all this is is got a lot of parallels with CSS

00:07:36   Which is yeah that underlies

00:07:38   responsive web design yeah, yeah, it's I that was you know, that was the first thing I

00:07:44   In learning about a lot of auto layout was like, okay. This is a lot like CSS. It's a very different take on

00:07:51   The you know, the implementation is very different than than CSS, but it's solving the same problem

00:07:59   Yeah, for better. You don't know what size the screen is gonna be deal with it, right?

00:08:03   It's a very Apple like thing to do to attack the same problem that CSS addresses and to just say we don't like

00:08:10   Effectively they're saying we don't like CSS. We're gonna you know, do it our own way and there's lots not to like about CSS

00:08:15   I mean, there's a reason why there are so many things like SAS that our front ends to CSS

00:08:21   yeah, the CSS is a very general solution right and this is a

00:08:27   Pretty specific problem that we're dealing with an iOS right now. So I can see why they did that right and the two

00:08:34   The closest they came to to just come on, you know hitting us over the head with it

00:08:40   Is that in the and I don't think this is?

00:08:42   Nd8 I don't know. It's very unclear. What is nd8 or not anymore?

00:08:47   But the fact I mean there's all sorts of places where you can also the video that talks about what you're about to talk about

00:08:52   Is is not yeah, it's not India. Yeah, and it's not you don't have to have an NDA to to watch those videos anymore

00:08:58   I assume you're talking about that the fact that you can dial in the numbers that you want for the yeah simulator

00:09:05   Yeah, right when you do when you build and run your app in Xcode you used to be able to choose between a device

00:09:12   If you have like an actual physical iPad or iPhone plugged in you can you know, you can pick it

00:09:18   You know if your iPhone is named Craig's iPhone you can say run this on Craig's iPhone

00:09:22   And then the app would build for ARM and Xcode would copy it over and it launches right on

00:09:28   your actual iPhone.

00:09:30   And if you run it in the simulator, you'd have to pick between actual virtual iPads,

00:09:38   you know, iPad 2, iPad Air, iPad Retina, iPhone 5.

00:09:43   They added two this year, resizable iPad and resizable iPhone.

00:09:49   And at the bottom of those in the simulator, you get to pick how many pixels wide the device

00:09:54   is and how high it is.

00:09:57   And like in the demo, they picked, I forget, like 600 by 800 or something like that.

00:10:01   I don't know.

00:10:02   Something that – and it's – you know, you'd sit there and watch this video and

00:10:06   you're like, "Why would they allow this?"

00:10:09   IAN: Yeah.

00:10:11   Again, that's the reading between the lines, right?

00:10:13   It's like okay there's gonna be some display size that is not a multiple of

00:10:21   320 by 640 or you know 320 by 568. Yeah. Think of the number is yeah. Yeah.

00:10:31   So and you know to be honest it doesn't really matter. You know it's the thing

00:10:39   I'm coming to you know the conclusion I'm coming to is like okay we've got to

00:10:43   start thinking about this really in points. It really is and that's that my

00:10:51   only reservation here are those odd numbered points right that's like you

00:10:54   know how do you split that in half that's really the in fact that's that I

00:11:02   think that you know people like Paul Haddad you know said you know this is

00:11:10   really a pain in the ass. Paul Haddad of Tapbot. Tapbot, yeah. And you know that's kind of

00:11:19   where this, there was a conversation this weekend and you know it's like well okay.

00:11:25   And that's where I said you know this is the end of us you know doing pixel perfect designs.

00:11:31   And then your comment about the you know how's this like the retina MacBook Pro right? You

00:11:38   You can set whatever scaling factor you want.

00:11:44   Behind the scenes, the Retina MacBook Pro always works at 2x.

00:11:49   It lays out a frame buffer at 2x.

00:11:51   It renders your images at two times their normal size, but it may not display them at

00:11:59   two times its size.

00:12:02   It may display them at 1.6 the size.

00:12:06   Well, there's five I think there's five options if you have anybody who hasn't seen a retina MacBook Pro

00:12:12   You're this might be very confusing and it was when I first heard about it

00:12:16   Two years ago when the first retina max came out it sounded to me like wow

00:12:23   those other four settings are gonna look awful and

00:12:26   the gist of it is by default your retina MacBook Pro shows up with

00:12:32   it there's five settings the one in the middle is like called best and

00:12:36   It's the one where everything is rendered at exactly 2x because you have 2x

00:12:42   You actually have 2x the pixels on the display and everything is rendered at that size. It is pixel for drag and

00:12:49   Then there's two more size options in each direction bigger and smaller

00:12:54   Where you go smaller everything on screen gets smaller and you effectively get a virtually bigger display

00:13:01   display, where you have more—again, are they pixels or are they points? They're

00:13:07   points, I guess you'd call them, more points in the display.

00:13:09   Right.

00:13:10   In other words, your eyes are great. You have good eyes and you would like to see more content

00:13:15   rendered smaller. You have two steps, small and really small. Then in the opposite direction,

00:13:22   you can go big and really big, and it zooms everything up a little bit. I can see it a

00:13:29   a little bit, especially if I take my glasses off and get real close to the screen. But

00:13:33   at typical viewing distance from a retina MacBook Pro, I actually don't see it. It

00:13:38   actually – it turns out it works really well.

00:13:40   Yeah. Our eyes are old enough that it's like, "Okay, close enough."

00:13:45   Yeah, I didn't wonder. I was talking with Molt about that a couple of weeks ago on the

00:13:49   show about how my eyes are – I'm at 41 or whatever the hell I am. I'm hitting those

00:13:56   limits.

00:13:57   But I don't know.

00:14:00   I actually think – because when I take my glasses off and get real close to something,

00:14:03   I can still see – if I get it close enough to my eyes, I can see it pretty sharp.

00:14:07   I've gotten really close to a Retina MacBook Pro and it's pretty effective.

00:14:11   Geoff - Yeah, well, I've been working on some stuff for Yosemite and doing Retina version

00:14:19   top.

00:14:20   I don't have a MacBook Pro with a Retina display.

00:14:24   But I do have a 30-inch cinema display that I can put into a retina mode with some developer

00:14:32   tools.

00:14:33   So instead of having 2560 by 1500 pixels, I think it is, you know, basically half that

00:14:39   number.

00:14:41   So I get a - it renders in retina on the 30-inch display.

00:14:47   So basically I've got like a 15-inch display in 30 inches of physical space.

00:14:52   It's huge, but it's really readable.

00:14:56   I don't have any problem seeing it and I can look at individual pixels.

00:15:00   It's really good for testing.

00:15:04   That's an extreme case.

00:15:05   If somebody had a vision problem, that 30 inches of real estate displaying a 15 inch

00:15:13   image would be awesome.

00:15:15   Yeah, but with text rendered as well as it could be at the actual size that it's at.

00:15:21   - Right.

00:15:22   - Have big, there's no big jaggies all over the place.

00:15:26   It doesn't look anything like when non-updated iPhone apps

00:15:31   were running on the original iPhone 4.

00:15:33   - Right.

00:15:34   - You know, everybody remembers that.

00:15:35   They look terrible.

00:15:36   Everybody, I mean, you'd have to be, you know,

00:15:38   maybe like borderline, legally blind,

00:15:42   not to be able to notice, wow, this looks pretty fuzzy.

00:15:47   It's not like that at all.

00:15:48   - Yeah.

00:15:49   - Like once the pixels get small enough,

00:15:50   you can start playing games like that. And I do think that's what it is.

00:15:53   So it's, you know, if this number I've come up with that I've heard, I didn't

00:15:58   just pull it out of thin air, but I can't say bet on it. But if it's 1334 by 750 and

00:16:05   these point sizes are odd, what's weird about it is that there's a, to our user

00:16:11   interface/programmer mind, a much more obvious number right next door. Just add two pixels

00:16:19   pixels in each dimension. And one of them is divisible by 16. 336, 1336, 1336, just

00:16:28   add two pixels, is divisible by eight evenly. And 752 is divisible not just by eight but

00:16:35   by 16, which is what…

00:16:37   Right.

00:16:38   Divisibility by 16 is what a lot of people just expect in a display. And it's only

00:16:46   two pixels which is at three hundred and twenty six pixels per inch one one over one hundred

00:16:57   and sixty three of an inch so it's not it's still four point seven inch display it's literally

00:17:04   one less than one hundredth of an inch difference in physical size so why would they do that

00:17:11   I don't know. I have no idea, but the little whispers word on the street are 1334 by 750.

00:17:19   I don't know. Maybe that's just an estimate. Maybe it's wrong and then, you know, Phil

00:17:22   Schiller's up on stage and the text specs come up and it says 1336 by 752. I don't

00:17:27   know. And, you know, that was close enough to 750 where the word that came out and was

00:17:31   whispered around was off by a little. I don't know.

00:17:34   They don't talk about pixels in text specs typically.

00:17:37   No, they do. They give you the exact pixel dimensions in tech specs. They don't talk

00:17:42   about RAM. They never tell you the RAM, and they don't tell you clock speeds on processors,

00:17:47   I don't think. But they definitely don't tell you about RAM. But they do tell you. If you

00:17:51   look at the tech specs now, they tell you the…

00:17:53   Okay. I seem to remember having a problem figuring out what the actual dimensions were

00:17:58   for an iPhone 5 screen at one point. But, you know…

00:18:01   I think they do it because they…

00:18:04   I think they do it because they want to brag about the pixels per inch and they do tell

00:18:09   you the diagonal.

00:18:10   So, they give, you know, you can just divide right there and it gives it away.

00:18:15   Right.

00:18:16   The diagonal size is actually an interesting thing to do.

00:18:21   In fact, my wife and I were talking about what we were going to talk about on this podcast

00:18:26   while we were having dinner.

00:18:29   She's like, "What is a 4.7 inch display and what's a 5.5 inch display?

00:18:34   And there's a real simple thing you can do. You get out a ruler that's got 5.5 inches on it and

00:18:39   put it diagonally across your screen and

00:18:42   You know go out to 5.5 because the aspect ratio is gonna stay the same

00:18:46   All right as your is your iPhone 5 that's not gonna change

00:18:49   so you can just draw a line out to 5.5 and get an idea for how big that screen is and it's

00:18:57   it's hefty right and then and

00:19:01   This is more fuel for the you know is the

00:19:05   5.5 inch display

00:19:08   Going to behave like an iPad or is it gonna behave like an iPhone?

00:19:13   Well, let's hold that thought and let me do take a break and do our first sponsor

00:19:18   brand new sponsor

00:19:21   Really really interesting. I can't I almost can't believe it. It's like in terms of things

00:19:26   I expected to be sponsoring my

00:19:28   Show, but here it is. It's Casper

00:19:31   CasperSleep.com.

00:19:36   They are brand new.

00:19:38   They're like a Warby Parker to glasses, like Harry's to shaving, except it's to premium

00:19:44   mattresses.

00:19:45   Mattresses, the things that you sleep on.

00:19:49   I swear to God.

00:19:50   Here's the thing though.

00:19:51   As part of the sponsorship, they sent me one, a demo.

00:19:55   They sent me a quick –

00:19:56   They sent you a mattress?

00:19:57   Honest to God.

00:19:58   I'll get back to this.

00:19:59   Craig, I'll get back to this.

00:20:00   I think that's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, it is crazy. I was like how the hell they gonna send me a mattress. Well, here's the deal

00:20:05   It's a new

00:20:07   Hype, it's like a new I don't know they've got like some kind of new high-tech stuff

00:20:10   They call it a new hybrid mattress that combines premium latex foam with memory foam

00:20:15   It's a combination but it's not like memory foam. It's not that thing where you get stuck in the bed

00:20:22   Yeah, like I wake up in the morning and there's like a crime scene body thing

00:20:25   No, it's just honest a guy just feels like a great mattress

00:20:28   It's just like a nice combination of softness and a little bit of that sort of …

00:20:36   Does Amy like it?

00:20:38   Yeah.

00:20:39   Yeah.

00:20:40   It's a great mattress.

00:20:42   And it's exactly the same sort of thing as eyeglasses were, where the mattress industry

00:20:46   is just crooked as all hell and they pay notoriously high markups.

00:20:52   And the existing mattress companies like … Last time I … It has been a long time since I

00:20:56   I went mattress shopping but I remember you know

00:20:57   I remember reading the thing on cocky about it where you go from one store to another and you look at like you take one

00:21:02   Of the big name brands like Celia or whatever and you go into the one store and you write down the ones that they had

00:21:08   That you thought you liked and you go to another store and they don't have those models

00:21:11   They sell like different models to every store with different names so that you can't compare like they've they've conspired

00:21:17   Successfully to avoid, you know, yeah allowing you to be informed try to price match. Yeah. Yeah, you can't

00:21:25   Casper undercuts among price dramatically.

00:21:29   Here's their prices.

00:21:31   They're not even afraid to tell you what they are.

00:21:33   Most mattresses, good mattresses cost start at over $1500.

00:21:36   Casper's cost between $500, that's where a twin size mattress fits.

00:21:41   That's like what Craig would like keep his arm on.

00:21:44   600 for XL twins, 750 for full size mattress, 850 for a queen, and only $950 for a king

00:21:51   size mattress.

00:21:54   Great prices.

00:21:55   There's not a lot of complication between what type of mattress. They just make one

00:21:59   type of mattress that just feels great. You don't have to get all complicated about it.

00:22:02   It's just a nice, soft mattress.

00:22:04   They do this crazy thing when they ship it. You think, "Well, how the hell are they going

00:22:07   to ship a mattress?" I don't know what the hell they do, but it's like vacuum-packed.

00:22:12   It's still a big box, but it's like a big box that maybe looks like it has a dorm room

00:22:18   fridge in it. It doesn't ship as a full-size mattress.

00:22:24   up at your house in this thing that actually like a UPS guy could reasonably give you.

00:22:29   It's actually one of the coolest things. I was just going to say, do you have to stand

00:22:34   back when you open it?

00:22:35   [laughs]

00:22:36   No. It's actually kind of slow. Obsessively engineered mattresses at shockingly fair prices.

00:22:43   Kids can't let it. It's got the right sink, just the right bounce. It is kind of bouncy.

00:22:48   Two technologies, latex foam and memory foam that come together for better nights, better

00:22:53   days. Risk-free trial. Because this, again, any time the first time you buy X on the internet,

00:22:58   you think like, "This is crazy that I'm buying a mattress on the internet." Risk-free trial

00:23:03   and return. You get to try sleeping on it for 100 days. Free delivery, painless return

00:23:09   if you don't actually like it. Their mattresses are made in America. Prices are great. So

00:23:15   here's what you do. Oh, and they have another deal. They've got this referral program. So

00:23:22   You get one of these mattresses.

00:23:23   Every friend you refer to Casper gives you a $50 gift card plus any friend you refer

00:23:29   also gets 50 bucks toward their mattress.

00:23:33   So they've offered us for the show the same opportunity.

00:23:36   So you save.

00:23:37   Use this code.

00:23:38   It's – I'll give you the URL, www.caspersleep.com/talkshow.

00:23:49   And I think when you check out, you might have to use the promo code talk show.

00:23:52   No "the," just talk show.

00:23:54   You'll save 50 bucks.

00:23:57   I get a $50 referral fee, but my $50 referral fee, I'm not getting it.

00:24:01   I don't want that.

00:24:02   They've already paid for the sponsorship.

00:24:04   So we're going to give it all to charity.

00:24:05   We're going to give it to the Food and Allergy Anaphylactic Network thing that my wife and

00:24:13   son participate in every year.

00:24:16   So you save 50 bucks using the code on a mattress.

00:24:19   50 bucks goes to great charity and it's it's serious. I just can't believe it here

00:24:24   I am selling mattresses, but it really is worth your attention

00:24:27   You'll save money and you get a great mattress. I think the last time you had me on you were selling Caesar salads

00:24:35   You know, so it's kind of like an honor that I get all the weird but kind of cool I

00:24:44   I'm tired of it. I think that the I think all sponsors I think you know, the show's doing pretty good

00:24:50   It's I have a lot of repeat sponsors. I'm really happy about that

00:24:52   And you know to me that's proof that it must be some kind of decent value

00:24:56   But I love the sponsors that you don't think of is like oh, it's a tech podcast

00:25:01   You know, let's sponsor it, you know, the ones like the salad and eyeglasses and now mattresses, but I think it's great

00:25:09   I don't know. I think that the core audience of during parable isn't really defined by technology

00:25:14   I think it's people who like nice things and are willing to pay for them. Yeah, that's well that kind of just sums up the Apple

00:25:22   customer base - and you know

00:25:25   Frustrated by bullshit and stuff like that and buying a mattress is so so much bullshit. I don't know

00:25:30   I think that this guy I don't know how many people buy a mattress per week

00:25:33   But I'll bet I I have this have a gut feeling that they could do really well. Yeah. No it is

00:25:38   It's it's one of those sleazy

00:25:42   You just it just just oozes, you know, oh my god, what am I doing here?

00:25:46   It's like a cartel because there's only like a couple of companies that control the whole industry and they just sort of conspired to

00:25:52   Lock it, right. So anyway, my thanks to them caspersleep.com slash

00:25:57   Talk show. All right, like you were saying this is a great great question and that

00:26:02   WWDC session raises points about it is is

00:26:07   This especially the five point five one is this five if it you know and if it ships this year

00:26:12   I do I'm almost I would say I'm 99% sure there's a five point five inch iPhone coming is it coming

00:26:18   September 9th that I don't know you know could be something you know who knows maybe there'll be a special event in February or something

00:26:25   But I I do think it's coming

00:26:27   And when it does is it going to act like an iPhone layout wise or more like an iPad and so for example in that session

00:26:35   2.16 they set up the

00:26:38   Adaptive layout

00:26:42   constraints such that when you rotate the phone to landscape

00:26:46   that it works like an iPad and so if you have

00:26:50   It was like a list of messages and you tap it

00:26:54   It showed it

00:26:56   You know

00:26:56   It was like one third of the screen was for the list and the other two-thirds shows what you have selected

00:27:02   Right and it stays on screen as opposed to the entire, you know to navigation

00:27:07   To view controllers on screen at once as opposed to the iPhone where it's always only one at a time it really is

00:27:15   from somebody who's

00:27:19   Has 54 year old eyes, right? I

00:27:22   don't necessarily want a

00:27:25   Smaller version of the iPad. I want a larger version of the iPhone

00:27:31   Right somebody something that can

00:27:33   Give you know

00:27:35   Give me more space

00:27:37   bigger text

00:27:39   To you know read the stuff that I've ever tried, you know, to be honest

00:27:43   There's some stuff on the iPhone that I have trouble reading

00:27:45   Right. It's just it just gets too small

00:27:48   The flip side of that, you know somebody who's you know in their 20s, you know, they spend it a lot of time

00:27:59   Looking at YouTube videos

00:28:01   You know, they've got Facebook. They're all their social networks, right? You know, they do all sorts of stuff on their phone

00:28:08   They got great eyes

00:28:10   They're gonna want that phone

00:28:13   to work

00:28:15   More like an iPad right just yeah tiny little font those shitloads of content on the screen

00:28:21   so I

00:28:24   That's why I say, you know pixels don't really matter anymore, right? It's like

00:28:29   This is, I see Apple telling us, you know, give up the idea of pixels and start thinking

00:28:39   about areas, right?

00:28:44   And trust that everything is going to look sharp.

00:28:46   Yeah, it's interesting.

00:28:47   One of the first things I did when I got an iPhone, right, is like I want to understand

00:28:51   what that magic 44 pixel number was all about.

00:28:56   I actually got a ruler out and put my finger against that ruler. My fingertip covered about

00:29:03   a quarter of an inch. Well, if you take the 44 pixels divided by 163 was the DPI originally.

00:29:15   162 or 163.

00:29:17   Yeah.

00:29:18   I think they call it 163 now.

00:29:19   It works out to be about a quarter of an inch.

00:29:21   Yeah. It's a little bit bigger.

00:29:23   A tiny little bit bigger than a quarter of an inch, but that's the size of your fingertip.

00:29:30   As we go to these different size displays, the number of pixels have changed, but our

00:29:37   fingertips haven't changed. I still touch a piece of glass and it's about a quarter

00:29:42   of an inch, so let's keep the controls that size.

00:29:47   Something has to – I don't know. Maybe I wasn't clear enough in the piece that I wrote

00:29:51   over the weekend, but something has to stay the same.

00:29:55   And I think what's been confusing--

00:29:58   and even to me, it's caught me off guard--

00:30:00   for the first couple of years, a lot of things

00:30:02   stayed the same as new iOS devices came out.

00:30:07   It wasn't just one or two factors that stayed the same.

00:30:09   Lots stayed the same.

00:30:11   And when they first went retina, they

00:30:14   increased the resolution in such an easy-to-understand way.

00:30:18   The screen size was exactly the same.

00:30:20   They just put four pixels into every spot where previously there'd only been one

00:30:24   And it made us I think it fooled me definitely and I still has given the people who are who?

00:30:31   Seem to be doubting my predictions

00:30:34   There's still a lot of people out there who think they're gonna stay and keep it that way

00:30:37   You know that the only reasonable way to go up they think is 1704 by 960 which is

00:30:43   exactly three times the pixels, but if they did that and

00:30:47   Increase the size of the phone to four point seven and five point five

00:30:51   They would be changing the size of the points. Mm-hmm, right and they would be changing the size of

00:30:58   those tap targets and

00:31:01   I don't think they're gonna do that. I think that that is not gonna happen, right?

00:31:06   Well, and it could I think they could make them a little bigger I do and I think on the five point five

00:31:10   They are going to make a little bigger

00:31:12   But I think that to make it so that you get more content on the screen at once at a reasonable size

00:31:17   The point is the thing that they're going to more or less keep centered

00:31:22   so if you have a 44 by 44 tab target like for a

00:31:27   And a tab controller at the bottom of the screen to switch between

00:31:32   You know your mentions or your you know, your main timeline and a Twitter client or something like that

00:31:39   That 44 by 44 point target is going to be roughly the same size on all devices

00:31:44   no matter which you know from from for it four inch iPhones to

00:31:49   You know nine point seven inch iPads or you know

00:31:53   Perhaps a 12 inch iPad, but that 44 by 44 point target is going to be mostly the same

00:31:59   And some of those devices are going to have four hundred and sixty pixels per inch some three hundred twenty six pixels per inch

00:32:06   There's old ones, you know, there's still a lot of iPad first generation iPad minis out there with 163 per inch

00:32:13   But the point is more or less the same size and that 44 by 44 tap target button is

00:32:18   Something you can count on as a designer and and when you start messing with that

00:32:23   I mean everybody's come across a web page where the links on that page, you know that they don't have a responsive design on the web page

00:32:30   Right. So like, you know the the next button on that webpage is this tiny little target and you know

00:32:37   You you try to get your finger to get right over that and you like you hit the you know

00:32:42   Some other link or some other control or they put and it's so frustrating

00:32:46   Right, or it's not just that it's not just that they're small but that there's they're small and there's two right next to exactly

00:32:53   It's like a paging control, right?

00:32:54   You know you're trying to you want to go to page two and it's like you hit page three and it's like ah

00:32:58   Yeah

00:32:59   Then you swear at the web designer. Well, you know if they start screwing her off the size of those tap targets

00:33:05   We're gonna be swearing at it at every

00:33:07   iOS developer and every you know Apple developers, it's just gonna be that they're not gonna screw with that

00:33:14   It'll be it may be you know

00:33:17   Slightly different like you're saying, you know, maybe you know five percent different plus or minus but it's not gonna change

00:33:25   significantly ever since

00:33:28   There were first rumors, even just vague ones, that there would be future iPhones with significantly

00:33:35   bigger screens, not just the 4.0, but stay with the same aspect ratio.

00:33:39   Because that wasn't really a change in size.

00:33:41   When they went to 4, it was more about changing the aspect ratio because they kept the width

00:33:46   exactly the same, 320 points, 640 pixels.

00:33:51   They just added pixels in one dimension to change the aspect ratio.

00:33:57   Since there's been talk of a bigger iPhone. I've always just started with the question of well, what's the problem?

00:34:03   They're trying to solve is it showing more content?

00:34:06   like more text per page

00:34:08   or

00:34:11   Is it about zooming it up and making the text that is on the page bigger?

00:34:15   You know and and there's different, you know, too totally, you know

00:34:19   And it is largely age-based

00:34:21   two totally different reasons to go each way where if you're younger and

00:34:25   You want to use your phone as more of your personal more and more like it's your main personal computer

00:34:30   You want more you want you want to show more at once?

00:34:33   And if you're older

00:34:36   You want bigger text, right?

00:34:39   And so you can see it

00:34:41   I think that by putting a lot more pixels on the screen going to 3x and having something like

00:34:48   2208 by 1242, which is my guess.

00:34:58   That by default, it's going to be mostly about showing more content because that's a 68%

00:35:04   increase in area.

00:35:06   Multiply the number of visible points on screen, not pixels, but points by 1.68, and that's

00:35:12   a lot more.

00:35:14   scaling factor of 6% so it's a little you know about 5 or 6 percent bigger but

00:35:19   I think that what they'll be able to do to make other you know the people who

00:35:22   want everything just want big text happy is I think that they I don't know I mean

00:35:26   there's nothing certainly nothing like this in the iOS 8 betas but and maybe it

00:35:31   won't even be an iOS 8 maybe we'll have to wait for iOS 9 or something but they

00:35:34   could add something like the retina MacBook Pro scaling factor where you you

00:35:40   You treat the 5.5-inch phone as a 2X device instead of a 3X device, and all of the apps

00:35:48   already have a 2X layout, and it just scales up.

00:35:53   And –

00:35:54   Well, it's even simpler than that, right?

00:35:56   It's like there is that regular size or compact size that they talk about in session 216.

00:36:06   And you know, you can say, "Okay, I want my 5.5-inch iPhone to act like it's compact."

00:36:15   Or, "Oh, no, no, no.

00:36:17   I want it to act more like regular."

00:36:21   And the code that's written well for the new, you know, size classes works correctly, right?

00:36:31   You get, "Oh, all of a sudden this behaves like an iPad."

00:36:34   all sudden this behaves like an iPhone given that display size that the

00:36:42   physical display size that you're working with. Yeah. So I think it's

00:36:48   you're right. There are two sets of people and they it's all about content

00:36:55   and some of them want more some of them want bigger and some of them want some

00:37:01   kind of mix between the two. Yeah, I mean you know and I think Apple did a brilliant

00:37:07   thing with that retina MacBook Pro, right? Because it handles a lot of different situations.

00:37:12   From the software developer's point of view, it's pretty simple, right? You're rendering

00:37:18   into a frame buffer that's twice as big as it used to be and those pixels make it to

00:37:26   the screen however they make their way to the screen. Another thing that's interesting

00:37:33   and that I've discovered recently in the Xcode beta is the ability to specify images, specifically

00:37:47   you know, graphics and software as vectors. There's the ability to specify your image

00:37:56   as say for example a PDF file. What's interesting there is that that's always been problematic

00:38:05   in the past because you know, you take a, you know, say in the iOS 6 world, right, you

00:38:13   You take a richly rendered button with gradients and all sorts of, you know, nice shadows and

00:38:21   things like that and you take the PDF for that and it's, number one, it's a pretty complex

00:38:28   PDF file, right?

00:38:29   It contains gradients and shadows and all sorts of stuff.

00:38:34   And then you scale it down to any kind of size and it just, it never looks great, right?

00:38:41   it's really big, then it looks awesome. But now with iOS 7, since iOS 7, all of the graphics

00:38:50   in our applications are really just stroke lines. They're really simple. An arrow is

00:38:57   just two lines at a 90 degree angle, rotated 45 degrees. It literally is that, that's how

00:39:08   It's described in the PDF file right you know this line is so many points long

00:39:13   You know it goes from this point to this point this point to this point done

00:39:17   Yeah, and that reminds me that's an X various two point Craig, and it brings me back to something that I remember now

00:39:23   Well I suspected it might have

00:39:27   That I might add something to file away and remember

00:39:30   But last year in June when I first saw iOS 7 when it was you know here's there's the big reveal

00:39:38   I was talking to somebody at Apple can't say who but you know, but what I was told was

00:39:43   from someone who had a hand in the design and it was

00:39:47   Something to the effect of well, we know some of the stuff that's coming and that informed some of our decisions

00:39:53   Yeah, you know and I can't tell you about it now

00:39:55   but

00:39:57   You know that played that you know part of this is not just about what it looks like now

00:40:02   Which we think looks great and we really are we really are proud of it

00:40:05   But part of it is about what's coming in the future and I do think that that's part of it that this is clearly

00:40:11   It's the iOS 7 style is clearly more scalable. Yeah, it malleable

00:40:16   It's that whole resolution independence thing is well that was an Apple's really wanted

00:40:21   Yeah, that's the old term but it really is that god that gets like Mac OS 10.4 10.5

00:40:27   It was already and it was always problematic because you know, it's like aqua was not an easy thing to scale

00:40:34   Resolution wise yeah, I'd have had all sorts of gradients and shadows and all this and now that we're in

00:40:40   Yosemite land and I was seven land. It's a

00:40:45   Lot easier. Yeah the old time

00:40:48   the original era was

00:40:51   Everybody knew that ultimately it was about higher resolution displays and getting more pixels prints on our displays

00:40:59   But we didn't we didn't have this retina

00:41:04   terminology and

00:41:06   It's not so much that retina is a magic word. You know it's it's an arbitrary

00:41:11   Marketing term and there's a basic the basic idea that at the distance at which you know the pixel isn't discernible

00:41:18   From your eye as long as it's you know a typical viewing distance then that counts as retina

00:41:24   There's definitely some scientific merit to that

00:41:26   But what wound up happening though is that it's sort of a binary

00:41:32   thing. An Apple display, whether it's a Mac or an iOS device, is either retina or not.

00:41:39   And for those of us who care about the details, we can tell, "Yeah, this one's retina, this one's

00:41:45   not." Like the first time you saw a retina iPhone, it was double. Even with the MacBook Pros, though,

00:41:52   the first one was the 15-inch, right? The 15-inch MacBook Pros shipped first, and it was like,

00:41:57   Like it wasn't quite double the pixels.

00:42:00   I think you could fake it with that scaling factor that we had to make it double the resolution.

00:42:05   But the actual, at the native resolution, everything was a little bit bigger because

00:42:09   they didn't quite get to double the pixels.

00:42:12   But you could just tell as soon as you looked at it, you're like, "Wow, this is something

00:42:15   unlike anything I've ever seen on a Mac before at this level."

00:42:18   Like the fonts look like real fonts.

00:42:22   I think back in the original era, and it wasn't just us on the outside.

00:42:25   I think even Apple had this that it was never it wasn't quite that did they didn't foresee doing it as like this

00:42:30   Binary switch it was gonna be this continuum where every maybe every couple years

00:42:35   We'd get a couple more pixels per inch and that if we had retina or not retina resolution independent

00:42:41   Assets, we wouldn't have to keep redrawing everything

00:42:44   But it didn't work out that way. It was never really. Yeah, we never really shipped a version of Mac OS X

00:42:50   That was resolution independent. It was a chicken. It was a chicken and egg problem, right?

00:42:54   It's like developers aren't going to do resolution independent graphics until they've got a resolution

00:42:59   independent screen and Apple's not going to release a resolution independent screen until

00:43:03   there are apps that run resolution independently.

00:43:06   Except for panic.

00:43:07   Yeah, oh, cable.

00:43:08   Those guys are just like, "God, they're heroes."

00:43:13   I forget which one of their apps was the...I don't know if it was Coda 1.0 or something.

00:43:17   I think it was transmit.

00:43:18   Oh, yeah, maybe it was an early version.

00:43:23   Panic apps from 2006 or 2007 maybe even earlier that were resolution independent

00:43:28   They had like PDF assets for everything and they went to extraordinary lengths to do that

00:43:33   Yeah, because and cable was the guy I remember going to like WWD old WWDC sessions. I mean like

00:43:40   seriously, probably like close to ten years ago and me and cable sass are hanging out in the back and just

00:43:45   Giddy as they were talking about resolution independence because we both like we're thinking next year. We're gonna have

00:43:52   The backs we didn't know the word retina, but we thought we were gonna get super high DPI max

00:43:57   Yeah next year and we were like just giddy just crazy

00:44:01   They're like, there's no way they'd be putting this in WWDC this year if they weren't coming

00:44:05   It's like let's start saving our money and cable was like I'm gonna start building up

00:44:09   Yeah, it was you know, you know, it it's it's all gonna come to fruition now and there's you know what the my

00:44:18   the red flag for me is it's the fact that they're using a Helvetica noise as the

00:44:24   System font. Oh, definitely. No doubt about it. I mean that

00:44:28   It's okay on a non retina display, but you see Helvetica noise on a retina display and it's like

00:44:36   Okay, you know the eyes the ails the ones

00:44:41   all

00:44:43   Look, okay there. It's a little

00:44:47   little muddy on a non retina display and

00:44:50   Apples making that you know, they're planting the flag saying okay. This is the way we're going forward and it's

00:44:58   Clear that that way forward is everything's gonna be retina not not just I've said this before but not just in

00:45:05   Hindsight having used retina MacBook Pros now for a while, but I've always thought I mean, I mean having used I'm sorry

00:45:13   I told using

00:45:15   Yosemite on a retina MacBook Pro for the last couple months Yosemite in particular not just because ever since the retina MacBook Pros

00:45:22   Shipped I thought that the aqua interface looked a little weird

00:45:27   I thought the displays looked beautiful and I thought everything about the UI looked a little weird look fake

00:45:32   You know

00:45:33   it always looked to me like a fake version of Mac OS that somebody made for a

00:45:38   Like a Marvel superhero movie, so it would look really cool big on screen

00:45:43   like they faked it and

00:45:45   You know, I love Lucida Grande. I mean, I still love it, but it looked a little

00:45:52   Janky on retina to my eye. Yeah, because well and it's you know, I

00:45:57   Got it. There's a reason why you don't see that font used in print

00:46:01   Right or sell to see it you very seldom see Lucida Grande in print because it just isn't

00:46:09   You know it was designed to look good with chunky pixels, and it did a great job of it

00:46:13   I mean it looked great on you know non retina displays look better than alvetic on non render this place

00:46:19   It did it served its job for over a decade fantastically, but then once it went retina. It looked weird

00:46:25   It's because it's just not this isn't a great font at high resolution. Yeah, you know the people that are complaining about

00:46:32   Helvetica noia not being you know humanist font and and

00:46:38   And I can get that as far as content is concerned.

00:46:45   And it's like, yeah, maybe your content in your app

00:46:49   should be displayed in some other kind of font.

00:46:51   But menu bars and dialogue boxes and stuff like that,

00:46:56   it's really no different than road signs.

00:47:00   It's navigation.

00:47:02   and Helvetica excels at, you know, you just go out in public, you know, get on the New

00:47:10   York City subway and notice that Helvetica is all over the place. It's good at doing

00:47:17   that. I think that, you know, Apple moving to that as a system font, it's something that,

00:47:27   you know, that lets us navigate through our apps. It's a good thing.

00:47:31   Hold that thought because it's it comes back to another thing. I I want to make about print design

00:47:36   And UI design but let me I get it. Yep, they're gonna get another sponsor. I mean it's I mean and when I follow up

00:47:43   Casper with the actual one I compared them to Warby Parker are good friends of Warby Parker

00:47:49   Super stylish really cool

00:47:53   Low priced well crafted eyewear. That's what Warby Parker does you've heard me talk about it before right?

00:48:00   They go there you go to the website

00:48:02   They have a whole bunch of frames really cool really cool stuff on the website to help you kind of

00:48:06   See what they would look like on your face take a webcam picture and just you know

00:48:10   What does this look like on my face and they do an amazing job kind of guessing the distance between your eyes and stuff like that

00:48:16   Then you pick five pairs of glasses that you like they ship them to you free they just show up

00:48:24   They you know, none of your prescription lenses yet. You just try them on at home. Look in the mirror. See what your

00:48:29   significant other things you look best in

00:48:31   and then if you find one or more pairs that you like you buy them and

00:48:36   If you don't you send them all back and then a couple days later you get the glasses you picked

00:48:40   No upsells on stuff like

00:48:44   UV coating or anti glare or anything like that all glasses include that everything includes the anti glare everything includes the

00:48:54   Anti reflective coating no additional cost all their glasses come with a hard case

00:48:59   We have a bunch of them in the house now really cool case good cleaning cloth everything like that

00:49:05   They have titanium frames metal ones. They start at one hundred and forty five dollars and their regular ones start at just 95 bucks

00:49:13   They do an awesome thing where every time they sell a pair of glasses prescription glasses

00:49:19   they also send a pair of prescription glasses to

00:49:24   people in need around the world who need prescription glasses. Almost a billion

00:49:28   people around worldwide lack access to prescription glasses, 15% of the global

00:49:33   population. So they've pop partnered with various nonprofits including there's one

00:49:39   here called VisionSpring to ensure that for every pair of glasses Warby Parker

00:49:43   sells another pair is distributed to someone in need. It's a great deal at a

00:49:47   great price. What were we talking about? We were talking about older eyes,

00:49:53   eyes getting older. They have progressive lenses that start at just $295 including frames.

00:50:01   That's a lot more money but I'll tell you what, progressive lenses, they're the ones

00:50:05   that have a distance prescription at the top of the lens and then they transition to a

00:50:09   reading lens near the lens's bottom without any kind of harsh line or anything like that.

00:50:15   Usually those things are super, super expensive at a regular eye doctor.

00:50:18   There's started just two hundred ninety five bucks

00:50:22   Really really cool stuff so go there check them out

00:50:27   You need new glasses next time you need glasses or sunglasses prescription go to Warby Parker Warby Parker

00:50:33   dot-com slash the talk show they've got the done there the talk show and

00:50:38   They have a special deal. What is the special deal here? I

00:50:41   think anybody who uses that deal gets

00:50:45   free shipping

00:50:48   so they'll send them they'll get on one right away use that code and

00:50:53   You get free shipping so my thanks to warby Parker

00:50:58   Go buy them go check them out to buy your glasses

00:51:01   so print design I

00:51:04   Wanted to make this point a couple minutes ago and you reminded me of it talking about the fonts. I

00:51:07   That's the world I came from coming out of college in the 90s. I knew Quark Express and I did print design and

00:51:17   I you know knew how to do exact layouts

00:51:20   But it wasn't down to what's the equivalent of the pixel which would be the dot of toner right if we had a 600 dpi

00:51:26   Laser printer we didn't we you know there's no way in quark or illustrator or something like that to do

00:51:36   Dot of toner perfect design right and yeah 600 dpi laser printer is higher than any of these dpis

00:51:43   We're talking about but if it's right that we have a four hundred sixty-one

00:51:46   one pixel print phone coming up, that's actually

00:51:49   in the ballpark, right, where you really shouldn't

00:51:52   be caring about the pixels.

00:51:54   And that if you specify--

00:51:55   if you just tell the OS, give me--

00:51:59   you know, I want to draw half the screen black, half white.

00:52:03   If the black half is actually one pixel larger

00:52:07   than the white half, that looks like half and half exactly.

00:52:11   There's no reason-- you shouldn't be worried about that.

00:52:13   You should just say half, right?

00:52:15   It would be just the same way that in QuarkXPress if I made an 8.5x11 sheet of paper and I just

00:52:21   drew a line at the halfway mark on the ruler, I don't know when it comes out on the piece

00:52:26   of paper whether it's actually a half to the dot.

00:52:30   It's close enough.

00:52:32   Actually, probably what would happen is you'd have an even number of black pixels, a 50%

00:52:38   gray pixel, one single and then all white.

00:52:42   I mean just there would be some sort of anti-aliasing there which would just make it smooth and

00:52:47   look nice.

00:52:48   Right, but I don't think we're supposed to worry about that.

00:52:51   Yeah, exactly.

00:52:52   That is kind of the takeaway for me is that it's like, you know, just give it up.

00:52:57   You know, the design is how you're going to stroke these elements, how you're going to,

00:53:02   you know, how are they balanced between each other.

00:53:05   you know you think about design at a higher level then okay it's 10 pixels of

00:53:11   padding you know 15 pixels of content another 10 pixels of padding you know

00:53:16   you got 25 pixels right and it's not about getting sloppy or not caring it's

00:53:21   about caring at its slightly higher level right I care about it at the level

00:53:26   of points and percentages but don't don't worry about it at the pixel level

00:53:31   anymore. Well that's you know the responsive web designs you know the

00:53:36   whole thing that Ethan Mark got his champion is that you know think about

00:53:42   things in percentages right I want 100% of my page width to show this paragraph

00:53:48   no I really want 50% of my you know it's like how many pixels that who the you

00:53:54   know who cares. Now somewhere out there are our good friends plenty of them

00:54:00   your colleagues who are pixel designers or not pixel designers, icon designers.

00:54:06   Sure. And you know what? They have not...

00:54:09   And they're gasping for air and choking.

00:54:11   No, no, no. They have not been dealing with pixels for years.

00:54:14   Really?

00:54:15   No.

00:54:16   See, that's why I wanted to have you on the show.

00:54:19   It's again, you know, you've got to think about things at a higher level. I mean, I

00:54:24   think they'll probably correct me when they hear this, but I believe they work at Illustrator

00:54:30   at 2048 by 2048 pixels.

00:54:34   That's where they start off.

00:54:38   They then scale it down to whatever pixel size the client requests.

00:54:43   They're working at some ridiculously large size.

00:54:47   They're thinking about how things balance out in that large canvas.

00:54:55   What the final rendering size is really just an implementation detail.

00:55:00   It's just something that it's like, okay, they need it 512 by 512.

00:55:05   They also need a 256.

00:55:07   Great.

00:55:08   We'll render it out that size.

00:55:14   It used to be that you'd go into something like ResEdit and click a pixel, say what color

00:55:22   you wanted, click another pixel.

00:55:26   To be fair, there is some of that still.

00:55:30   If you take that 2048 by 2048 image in Illustrator and put it into Photoshop and render it down

00:55:37   at 16 by 16 and it's got some text or something on it, you're going to have to go clean up

00:55:42   that text. It's not going to scale down nicely. They do that still. There is some pixel clean

00:55:49   up there. But to be honest, that's less and less of something that a client even needs.

00:55:58   needs right I mean people don't work at that size anymore I think yeah it's you

00:56:07   know we've moved on from that yeah I go back to the my you know my days as a

00:56:12   print designer and you know oh it sucked when somebody would give you their logo

00:56:16   and it was in a bitmap you know yeah file or something yeah not even if it

00:56:20   was you know if it was really low res you'd have to go back to him and say you

00:56:23   got to give me something better but even if it was high res it kind of stunk

00:56:26   Because you knew there was an upper limit, you know God

00:56:29   Why can't you just give it to me as a vector and when you did have you know an EPS of the logo?

00:56:33   You just you didn't really worry about how it was going to turn out you sized it, right?

00:56:37   You placed it exactly where you wanted in your layout and Quark Express

00:56:42   And then you just trusted that when it came off the printer

00:56:44   It was going to look good and we would do things too. I remember with some logos

00:56:47   Where if it was like a dark background with white text if you knew it was going into

00:56:55   Newsprint you might have an alternate version where the text was bolder

00:57:00   Because you knew the ink was gonna bleed and to make it look right, you know

00:57:04   There were some logos or things like that where you'd have an alternate version

00:57:08   For something like newsprint because he knew it was going to bleed a little bit

00:57:12   But for the most part you never had to worry about it. Yeah, I think in in in

00:57:17   UIs with vector graphics, you know a lot of people get confused the

00:57:24   The graphic that you're using to develop with with the actual graphic that gets rendered on screen

00:57:30   You know when you're talking about what you were doing with quick QuarkXPress a

00:57:36   Very important part of that process was the rip right the thing where I took that vector

00:57:41   Representation and put it into a bitmap which it then could send on to the you know to the press that you know

00:57:48   physically print it

00:57:51   When you say, "Okay, I'm going to put a PDF into Xcode," I don't know this for a fact,

00:57:58   but I'm guessing that all that PDF does is give something Xcode to work on at compile

00:58:04   time.

00:58:05   And Xcode will know that it needs something that's 16 by 16, or it's going to know that

00:58:09   it needs something that's 256 by 256, and it will render it at the appropriate size.

00:58:17   The reason being is that all our GPUs work with textures.

00:58:23   They work with bitmaps.

00:58:24   You don't want a vector representation in your app at run time.

00:58:31   You just don't want that.

00:58:32   It's inefficient.

00:58:33   If you have to have an iPhone 6 render out all these PDFs before it can display them

00:58:40   on the screen, your launch time is going to be slower.

00:58:42   It's difficult.

00:58:43   Yeah, it's going to take more CPU.

00:58:45   Exactly.

00:58:46   I don't know that it works that way though. I don't know. I don't I don't either but you know just knowing how this this works

00:58:52   But better to burn burn the developers CPU exactly right you know once on a Mac Pro

00:58:58   You know no problem

00:59:01   so I

00:59:04   You know you look at kind of Xcode

00:59:06   6 is the rip now right? It's the thing that takes all these vector

00:59:11   Definitions it takes our auto layout definitions

00:59:16   It's the thing that takes all this resolution independence and puts it into a format where

00:59:24   at runtime the iPhone or even Yosemite now can take that and display it how the user

00:59:35   wants to see it.

00:59:39   a pretty... it's really... it's us as developers we have to kind of let go a

00:59:47   little bit to say okay this is gonna... and that in fact web developers already

00:59:52   gone through this process right there when they talk about responsive web

00:59:55   designs there's they're letting go of the notion that everything's gonna

00:59:59   align perfectly according to their Photoshop mock-up. It's not. It's not.

01:00:07   Right. It's just not. And what Auto Layout is saying and what these

01:00:14   size classes are saying is like in these different scenarios this is kind of how

01:00:19   you want things to layout. And you don't necessarily know that it's gonna lay out

01:00:26   exactly the way you expect it to lay out. I mean yeah who's to say that

01:00:33   your font settings are you know that's you know in iOS you can go and say I

01:00:40   want larger type yeah right how about how big how big yeah how big is the text

01:00:46   bubble in in messages you know how big is a text bubble that's three lines of

01:00:53   text I bet in my iMessage it's gonna be larger than in yours yeah because I'm

01:01:00   13 years older yeah, I'll bet it is I

01:01:03   Think there's another thing too

01:01:07   that's implicit in the message coming from Apple which is you can't look even if we add two new phones and

01:01:12   one of them is 750 pixels wide and the other one is

01:01:17   1200 and whatever 1224

01:01:21   Don't take that as meaning. Okay now. I can expect either 640 or 750

01:01:29   or

01:01:30   No, stop thinking that you can make a list of the expected widths

01:01:34   You should make an app that is ready for any way right, you know it in instead of just 704. Maybe it's

01:01:42   703 doesn't matter your app should be ready for that

01:01:45   You know that there's no there shouldn't be any reasonable width in that area that your app isn't ready to handle

01:01:52   because I think it also ties into another rumor, which is the rumor of

01:01:58   split-screen multitasking on the iPad right and you know and possibly combine that with

01:02:04   New iPad sizes if they come out with it's you know a bigger pro size iPad

01:02:10   Yeah, that there's some there's some problematic things as far as that split screen on the iPad and you know the whole you know

01:02:17   status bar

01:02:19   Like oh, there's totally problems, and I'm curious to see how it goes

01:02:23   But I'll tell you the there's no doubt my mind know that part of the message is

01:02:27   Don't don't assume you can you you're gonna you can expect the right to be from this short list of numbers

01:02:35   Right the width could be anything. Yeah exactly and if it turns out

01:02:39   That this iPhone really does ship with a width of 750 and we're 1334 height

01:02:45   Instead of 13 36 by 752 which would be neater. I think that that's that's Apple explicitly

01:02:53   telling us

01:02:54   Stop stop trying to do pixel perfect 16 by 16 pixel grid displays. You know designs. Yeah

01:03:01   What's gonna happen with?

01:03:04   iOS apps that are

01:03:07   Haven't been updated haven't been updated for iOS 7 even I mean I've got I've got some apps that are still

01:03:14   iOS 6

01:03:17   Yeah, yeah that that keyboard comes up and it's like it's I can tell what the shift key is but other than that I don't

01:03:25   You know what it's gotten to the point now where I find that I have a couple of those apps too

01:03:30   And I've gotten to the point where I for whatever reason even though it doesn't make any sense because it has no actual

01:03:35   Physical feel I find that I can't type right on it anymore. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. It's

01:03:40   But I'll tell you the shift keys better

01:03:45   That's a constant reminder that... Why is Apple being so reluctant to change that to

01:03:52   fix it?

01:03:53   I would love... I have no idea.

01:03:55   There's got to be somebody up high in that company that says, "No, no, it's better this

01:04:01   way."

01:04:02   Somebody has taken control of that. Nobody over this person cares enough to overrule

01:04:09   and nobody under them has been able to persuade them.

01:04:11   yeah oh my god it's it's it and I you know here it's what been a year

01:04:17   and I'm still getting confused by it

01:04:21   it's like the USB cables right you know you put it in once

01:04:26   oh no I got it shifted, oh fuck, put it in there

01:04:30   oh there I got it. It takes three tries

01:04:35   it takes three tries to get the shift right

01:04:38   Did you see the tweet from speaking of our God? Yeah, yeah even Friday

01:04:42   It's my far away it's why I love Steven so much because yeah, I'd never quite thought of it

01:04:51   So there's rampant rumors that Apple is gonna come out of the reversible USB switch

01:04:55   That's going to just work in existing USB sockets

01:04:59   and if you look Google if you haven't seen it Google it look at the patent and

01:05:03   Their diagram makes total sense where it's you know, it's like a they call it a tongue

01:05:08   It's a tongue that would go up or down

01:05:10   Depending on which way you put it in so it would be reversible and Stephen Frank's tweet was are you meaning to tell me that?

01:05:16   For the last 15 years there was nothing

01:05:18   Technically stopping us from having reversible USB cables

01:05:22   And it is such a fascinating way to word it because it's like oh my god how many times have I plugged it tried

01:05:30   How many collectively how many man-hours have been wasted with USB cables being plugged in wrong?

01:05:36   It's gotta be it's gotta be a staggering number because everybody does it

01:05:40   I don't know about anybody else, but I'd like do it at least once a day. Yeah. Yeah, it's only five seconds

01:05:46   But on those Apple white chargers, I never have up and down never know which one's up and down

01:05:52   So it doesn't help me to look at the cable and say oh the USB logo is up

01:05:56   So I'll put it in this way. I don't know which way the thing is in the socket

01:06:00   Mm-hmm, like it, you know, it's all combined with the fact that in the u.s. Are

01:06:04   Our electrical sockets are reversible for a lot of plugs including those little white adapter plugs if it's not a three prong plug you can

01:06:13   Put the charger in upside down and even with the three prong ones on some

01:06:19   Wall sockets, they're upside down. Yeah

01:06:23   something. I've got one 30 pin connector on my desk still just for an old test device.

01:06:30   I tell you the lightning being reversible, it seems like a stupid little thing. But it's

01:06:39   just like, "Oh, this is so much better."

01:06:43   I have a rant in me. I don't know that I've ever expressed it, but I think in hindsight

01:06:49   the lightning adapter is the most appley thing Apple has done in ten years it's

01:06:56   the single it's it just epitomizes everything that either it's like killing

01:07:00   the iPad mini right it's like it was there everybody loved it worked great

01:07:04   all the hotels had it it's like no screw it yeah yeah I would say go better you

01:07:10   know maybe the one previous prior to it was the iPod nuking the iPad mini even

01:07:15   it was the most popular device on the planet for the iPod nano even though

01:07:19   They were switching the more expensive components. Yeah

01:07:21   Yeah, I think doing it where everybody in industry uses these finicky little micro USB things

01:07:28   That are horrible because I still have to deal with them with like my Kindle I have to deal with them with the Mophie

01:07:35   And now that I've gotten used to lightning it's only gotten worse because I don't have patience for it and I just stabbed

01:07:40   It's it cracks me up when we travel, you know, you arrive in a hotel room and it's you know

01:07:47   They've got like the little you know, they oh we we have an iPod charger in the room and you go over it

01:07:54   It's a 30-bit connect

01:07:56   Okay

01:07:58   In another five years you guys will get with the program. All right, like hotels are on like a 15 year

01:08:05   Refugishment cycle and it's like that just does not work with something like phone charge

01:08:10   But I also think that the lightning adapter in addition to being what I love about Apple that they're like

01:08:16   We don't care what everybody else is doing

01:08:18   And we're not happy with what we ourselves have we're not happy with our proprietary

01:08:23   30 pin plug because we could do so much, but they were annoyed by their own ugly adapter

01:08:27   And they're like we can make it smaller

01:08:29   We can make it reversible and that would be just eliminate a huge annoyance from all of our lives

01:08:35   But it's also what drives some people who don't like Apple crazy

01:08:39   Which is why don't they just use micro USB and then every phone on the planet would have the same adapter?

01:08:44   Which I have to admit that's that's not

01:08:47   Unreasonable, you know, it's a trade-off. Do you want to you know do what everybody else does or do you want to try to do something better?

01:08:55   Yeah, well, I look at micro USB and it's like it's the epitome of design by committee, right?

01:09:01   it's just and it was it was defined by a

01:09:04   consortium of companies that were saying let's make a universal serial connector, right and

01:09:13   Things that are designed by committee are often

01:09:16   Not optimal right now, and I look at the lightning connector, and it's pretty optimal

01:09:23   Yeah, it's it's

01:09:26   Effect you know they've done some crazy stuff with that

01:09:28   Well at the very least it's better than anything I've ever seen from anybody else yeah

01:09:33   Yeah

01:09:35   Mark Edwards, this is going back about five minutes mark Edwards

01:09:38   Who I think was very much in doubt

01:09:43   About my predictions for screen sizes, and he had a tweet earlier

01:09:47   You know a day or so after I published where he he was you know something the effect of he was very skeptical of any

01:09:53   screen sizes that aren't divisible by 16

01:09:55   but then he went he did something understand I didn't think to do is

01:09:58   Made a whole list of recent iMac MacBook Pro MacBook Air iPad and etc

01:10:07   Devices and

01:10:12   saw which ones were divisible by 32 16 8 4 and

01:10:16   The MacBook Air there's an 11-inch there there's an 11-inch MacBook Air that isn't divisible by any of those numbers that it's got a

01:10:26   1366 screen size width which isn't even divisible by 4 let alone 8 or 16

01:10:33   There's a

01:10:37   13 inch MacBook Air where the height is

01:10:40   900 which is only divisible by four not even by eight

01:10:44   And there's a couple others that aren't divisible by 16

01:10:48   So it's not completely unprecedented like that was there was a bunch of people who were like hey graphics cards want everything in

01:10:55   16 pixel increments

01:10:57   That may be so but that hasn't stopped Apple with Mac books before

01:11:01   Yeah, well again. It's just a matter getting those textures that on the GPU wood and the textures are gonna be

01:11:08   Bite aligned, you know that just for performance reasons right there the whole graphics pipeline is it's gonna want to be

01:11:15   You know even numbers probably you know even word sizes, you know, so right

01:11:22   they'll do something that's gonna line to 64 bits or 32 bits or whatever that the bit size is for the

01:11:28   Right. So in other words, they'll round up for when they're sending stuff to the GPU

01:11:32   Yeah, they'll just overwrite, you know, it's like okay. Yeah. Okay, you know those last two pixels

01:11:38   that would have been perfect just go off into the ether. They don't actually go to the display.

01:11:45   Again, for so long we've been tied to display hardware as the thing that is driving our

01:12:03   operating systems, the resolutions in our software that you know the

01:12:08   dimensions in our software and that's the thing that's going away is that we

01:12:18   we've got to stop thinking about the hardware and start thinking about our

01:12:23   designs, thinking about our layouts. Yeah and that's gonna be hard that's gonna be

01:12:31   hard thing that you know as you know we've all you know it's like that's the

01:12:37   thing that you know this this odd number width and height for the 4.7 inch

01:12:43   display just makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up right because I know

01:12:51   because I know it's gonna cause problems right it's like you know when we went

01:12:55   from from 32 bits to 64 bits right it's like oh it was just you know twice

01:13:01   as big was it but yeah you make assumptions in your software all over

01:13:04   the place that well this integer is gonna be 16 bits ever forever right you

01:13:10   know it's never gonna change it's always 16 bits so you know then all of a sudden

01:13:15   it's like 32 bits oh crap I remember I remember it I remember 8-bit ints yeah I

01:13:20   remember ints that maxed out at what is that 60 65 35 yeah yeah yes that that

01:13:29   it the 8-bit microprocessor with a 16-bit address space right so he had to

01:13:38   declare a long to get a six but you know again you know for the sometimes we got

01:13:46   a pass out Pascal strings were 256 characters exactly exactly you had to

01:13:51   have that that bite in there to tell you how long the string was it's like you

01:13:55   You want Unicode with that? Screw you.

01:13:59   That's the thing.

01:14:03   Throughout the history of computing

01:14:07   we've taken shortcuts either for

01:14:11   caused by laziness or either

01:14:15   As a deliberate act for performance

01:14:19   We have shortcuts

01:14:23   cuts all over our code

01:14:25   and i don't think for example i don't think the thirty two kilobyte limit in

01:14:29   the original text edit controls

01:14:33   in mac OS i don't think that was laziness i think that was a very

01:14:36   practical decision

01:14:38   given the constraints of the original

01:14:41   mac

01:14:41   hardware

01:14:43   but then eventually we had all these apps with all these text fields that

01:14:47   were using the system text edit control couldn't show more than thirty two

01:14:50   kilobytes attacks

01:14:52   Eventually, the computers clearly had the memory to allow it, but now you had all this

01:15:00   software to rewrite.

01:15:02   Yeah.

01:15:03   Well, let's say the same thing with UTF, right?

01:15:06   It's like UTF really didn't take off until UTF-8 came around because it could handle

01:15:14   the old ASCII characters.

01:15:17   That's well.

01:15:19   Then you could add on you know, you could have special sequences of

01:15:23   character strings that would I

01:15:26   Would hold that up. I would hold up UTF-8 as a pretty good

01:15:30   Designed by committee. Yeah, very pragmatic very

01:15:35   Very pragmatic. I remember I'd and maybe I'm misremembering this but I seem to remember that there were an awful lot of people

01:15:42   Who thought it was who?

01:15:45   Who held their nose at utf-8 and we're like well?

01:15:47   It'll be a stopgap for a year or two before everybody switches to utf-16 right and it was like utf-16 was like the equivalent of

01:15:54   HTML 4.0 strict right you know the HTML standards that never really are xhtml

01:16:03   Right like it was the way things were supposed to be right

01:16:08   We'll let you will let you have your tag soup HTML now

01:16:12   But soon we'll switch to X HTML and if you're if you're if your webpage it doesn't validate as an XML document

01:16:20   We'll throw up an error

01:16:22   And I feel like UTF I feel like the people on the who did UTF-8 were like

01:16:28   We'll let those eggheads go and blather on and in the meantime, we'll make very practical

01:16:34   System that is actually, you know going to work and a few years later

01:16:41   Along comes utf-32 right because they ran out of space with the 16

01:16:45   It's classic right it's like oh, you know 16-bit should be enough for anybody any character set you know that's like

01:16:54   Sorry right you've got to go change all your code now

01:17:00   Right they effectively

01:17:02   We made the same to sit they made the same mistake that

01:17:05   That we ran into the first time with 256 character

01:17:09   Yeah, and the thing that cracks me up is UTF-8 is never more than 32 bits long. It's right. So

01:17:15   Worst case it's equal to the maximum

01:17:20   UTF-32 words are

01:17:23   So yeah, and in the common case, it's way smaller than you. Oh, yeah. Yeah

01:17:29   so anyway

01:17:32   On with that let me take another break here and thank our good friends at Squarespace you guys know Squarespace

01:17:37   They're the all-in-one

01:17:39   web publishing

01:17:42   Hosting platform you go to Squarespace you sign up for a website

01:17:46   You get your own domain name you get templates to choose from you have all sorts of components

01:17:54   You can just plug and play

01:17:55   Graphically in their editor to make your own website you want to have your Twitter feed show up in a sidebar

01:18:00   bar you can do that you want to have a gallery of images you can add that you

01:18:06   want to have a blog you can do that you want to publish a podcast they've got

01:18:10   great tools for that all of it drag and drop very visual if you want to you can

01:18:16   always drop down if you know how to do the code you can modify the CSS you can

01:18:20   inject your own JavaScript you can do all sorts of stuff like that all of

01:18:24   their templates are responsive they look great on everything from iPhone to the

01:18:29   big screen they have 24/7 every day of the year live tech support with teams in

01:18:37   Dublin New York and Portland Oregon email or chat no phone calls who wants

01:18:44   to talk on the phone to me that's actually an advertising point that you

01:18:47   don't have to call them you just get on the their website go to chat ask them

01:18:51   hey I have I need help with this template thing they know everything

01:18:54   about it and they are happy to help go there and sign up if so if you need a

01:19:00   website I know I say this all the time they've been sponsoring the show for

01:19:03   years who knows them maybe here maybe you need didn't need a website until

01:19:08   recently but now you have something you want to sell you want to sell t-shirts

01:19:11   or something like that they can do that they have online commerce here's where

01:19:14   you go go to squarespace.com slash Gruber my last name squarespace.com slash

01:19:20   And when you sign up, you get a free trial.

01:19:24   Number one, you can start with a free trial.

01:19:26   Try it out.

01:19:27   No credit card required.

01:19:28   Do that.

01:19:29   They'll know you came from the show.

01:19:30   When you do sign up, use the offer code JG, just my initials, and you'll get 10 percent

01:19:35   off.

01:19:36   And if you pay for a year in advance, you'll get your own top-level domain registered right

01:19:40   from them.

01:19:41   So go there and check them out.

01:19:42   My thanks to Squarespace.

01:19:43   I got a question for you, Craig.

01:19:46   We were talking about this before.

01:19:47   of cut you off because I wanted to go deep on it in between sponsor breaks how

01:19:53   do you think legacy apps are gonna run on the new iPhones oh right yeah so we

01:19:58   have two kinds you you you said ones that weren't even updated for iowa7 I

01:20:02   was just thinking about size yeah um I've given a lot of thought to this I

01:20:10   think I actually haven't so I'm gonna I'm just gonna kind of wait so here so

01:20:15   So with the aspect ratio staying the same, it's to me a totally different change from

01:20:23   the iPhone 4 to the iPhone 5 where they letterboxed it and they had black at the top and bottom

01:20:29   and they just ran it at the pixel for pixel, same size.

01:20:32   And if you didn't update for the new 16 to 9 display, you just got – I call it letterboxed,

01:20:37   right?

01:20:38   You just had black bars.

01:20:39   Right, right.

01:20:40   So the equivalent now would be to letter – you'd have to letterbox on all four sides because

01:20:45   there's gonna be more pixels in both dimensions. So if they did the same thing

01:20:47   you would get a 640 by 1136 app in the middle of your screen. I don't think

01:20:54   they'll do that. The thing that is complicated there is that you've got

01:21:02   apps that are potentially using Auto layout or you've got apps that are

01:21:07   potentially using strings and spreads springs and struts which are an older

01:21:15   technology but allow you to make adaptive layouts not quite as elegantly

01:21:21   as the new way with auto layout but they still can't adapt do you think that it's

01:21:28   possible though that even without recompiling with the iOS 8 SDK and

01:21:32   submitting an update yeah that's I don't that's a question I think you're gonna

01:21:37   Have to submit an update. I think you're gonna have to have to flip some bid in your code saying yeah, I've tested this

01:21:42   It's gonna have to go through app review again, and they're gonna say yep this looks okay

01:21:47   I think depending on how you wrote your app to this date if you use things like springs and struts

01:21:53   Or if you've if you I think if you've been using auto layout you're probably in good shape

01:21:56   But you're still gonna have to at least recompile it and like you said

01:21:59   Do something in a p-list you know your info dot p-list that says I'm ready for you know

01:22:05   It was like it's like what we had to do with

01:22:07   With the new tall screen, you know the four inch screen, right? It was a matter of putting in a new

01:22:14   Launch image that said, you know, that was the right size. So it's like, oh, okay. They got the new launch image

01:22:21   They're okay for the iPhone 5. I

01:22:24   Think if you don't if you're you know, like let's say you just haven't submitted you just your app is just sitting there

01:22:30   You don't there is no update to the app the app that's there today in August is still there in

01:22:36   you know late September when the new iPhone ships and

01:22:39   You launch it on the phone. I think it will the system will scale the app

01:22:45   to fill the screen

01:22:48   So in the same way it will if it's I if it's compatible with the iPhone 5. Yeah

01:22:55   Yeah, yeah, if it's something iOS 6 that's you know, there are still apps out there that are running on

01:23:02   5-inch displays, I mean that that's one of the problems with the App Store right now is that there's so many apps out there

01:23:09   that

01:23:11   I've never seen an update because it's not profitable for the developer who wrote the app to do or it was a commission

01:23:18   You know some somebody hired

01:23:20   contractors and they submit it and they were all gung-ho and then the contracts over and now the app just

01:23:24   Sits there and never gets updated because there isn't even a team of developers who are choosing not to update it

01:23:32   They were hired the contracts over in the app. It's just there. I don't know what they're gonna do. I

01:23:37   Maybe for like an app that still assumes a three three point five inch screen

01:23:42   It'll zoom to fill the width and they'll still have black bars at the top and bottom

01:23:47   I can't imagine that they would stretch it, you know, let's go there just I think it'll just fill the width

01:23:52   You know, I'm gonna I'm only thinking about the common case which is apps that are iOS 7 apps that are you know?

01:24:00   It's already 16 to 9 but that they're hard coded for 640 by 1136

01:24:05   I think that the system will scale them dynamically to fill the screen and

01:24:09   I don't think it'll look that bad

01:24:13   I think people who really do notice pixel level details will be appalled and they'll be if

01:24:18   You know for designers and developers who have apps in the store

01:24:22   They're gonna be motivated to get them updated as quickly as possible

01:24:24   But I think it'll do you think it'll stretch images? Yeah, I think it'll stretch everything because they're all at 16 to 9

01:24:31   It'll stretch in proportion

01:24:33   That's what I think because I don't think I think Apple would rather have

01:24:39   apps that look a little blurry and I don't think it'll look nearly as blurry as

01:24:44   Because I've played with yeah

01:24:47   It won't be like when we went from 1x to 2x or even right for it won't look like that

01:24:54   Three and a half inch to four inch. Yeah, right

01:24:56   Well one X to 2x is probably the best example where if you had an app that wasn't updated for retina and you launched it

01:25:01   On the iPhone 4 it just looked terrible

01:25:03   It's not gonna look like that

01:25:05   I've taken like screenshots of springboard and Vesper and a few other apps and just

01:25:11   Scaled them up in acorn by the multiple and then just shown them on at

01:25:17   100% size on like a retina iPad and

01:25:20   It's not

01:25:23   Obviously, it can't be pixel-perfect crisp, but it's not that bad

01:25:27   And I think it is sort of comparable. It's a little bit worse, but it's sort of comparable to the retina

01:25:35   MacBook Pro scaling we talked about earlier. Yeah, I think the average person won't notice if the text is scaled correctly

01:25:43   Right. Yeah, if the name that comes out crisp then you're gonna get away with a lot, right? Yeah

01:25:50   You know, yeah, they're gonna be designers out there that are like, you know

01:25:54   screeching and moaning about

01:25:57   The you know, they're a little bit aliasing in those images. Well, then get your aching and your update submitted exactly

01:26:05   Exactly. But if the text is readable, that's the thing that a lot of people are driven

01:26:13   by what they see textually, not by what they see graphically.

01:26:18   Well, and it's just an awful lot of what we do. Reading messages, their text. We're reading

01:26:23   emails, their text. We're reading web pages. It's mostly text. And video will be just fine.

01:26:30   It'll be a little blurrier than it would be if it was updated natively. But I think they're

01:26:34   Maybe not even video because a lot of apps use the standard movie player controller

01:26:40   Yeah, you're right. And then which case it'll just should just work

01:26:42   I think the big thing is that somebody who's blunks down the money for the big-ass

01:26:48   5.5 inch iPhone

01:26:51   Which I think is gonna carry a hundred dollar price premium at least because it's you know

01:26:56   Got this super big display and everything and I think they're gonna be able to get away with that

01:27:00   I think there's gonna be demand that justifies it you spunk down the money to get a big-ass

01:27:06   5.5 inch iPhone and it's gonna be big and then all of your non Apple apps are small

01:27:12   I just think that's a non-starter

01:27:14   Like as long you know, you buy a big phone you expect big apps and even if they're a little blurry

01:27:20   That's better than having them run

01:27:22   in a ridiculous silly little

01:27:25   letter boxed on all four sides

01:27:28   rectangle in the middle of your screen. I think they're just going to scale it and

01:27:31   be done with it and that's it. And going from the 4-inch phone to the 4.7-inch phone

01:27:37   is not even that big of a scaling factor. I think scaling them up for the 5.5-inch is

01:27:42   going to be a little gross. But still, it won't be anywhere near as bad as the 1X

01:27:47   apps on the 2X iPhone were back in 2010 and they did that.

01:27:51   Yeah, what is the percentage increase it's 68% so it'll be 1.68

01:27:58   But they're gonna have all those extra pixels to smooth it out

01:28:03   Right, I just think it's gonna end up being surprising compared to those of us who still are scarred from what the 1x apps looked

01:28:12   like on the original retina iPhone 4

01:28:14   It's even on the 5.5 inch phone. I don't think it's gonna be that bad

01:28:20   And I wouldn't be surprised if they do something where if you're using, you know

01:28:24   UIText or something like that that it's that the text will will scale at the right, you know with the right proportions

01:28:31   Yeah, but I could see things

01:28:33   Falling apart if you know say somebody has a text view and they say okay

01:28:39   I want this image to draw, you know, ten pixels to the right of this text you for some reason, right?

01:28:45   How does how does the system handle that?

01:28:49   How does it know what the right thing to do is?

01:28:53   That's…

01:28:54   Yeah, it's not going to be imperfect, but I think that's what they're going to do.

01:29:00   I definitely think they're going to scale them to fill the screen.

01:29:03   I really think…

01:29:04   Yeah, well, there's definitely going to be motivation for developers to get their apps.

01:29:09   I mean, and the fact is that any responsible developer has had since June to look at this

01:29:18   stuff and to run it in a simulator at all sorts of weird sizes and make sure it does

01:29:23   the right thing.

01:29:27   I know we've done it with our apps.

01:29:29   It's just, you know, you want to avoid surprises.

01:29:33   But again, there are going to be, you know, those development teams that were put together

01:29:38   to build an app and the you know the the marketing budget paid for the app and

01:29:43   the marketing people don't understand what size classes mean or even the fact

01:29:47   you know they told there's a bigger iPhone what does that mean and until

01:29:51   they actually see their app running on that iPhone and and go oh crap yeah we

01:29:57   gotta fix this yeah those guys back in here I remember that I remember hearing

01:30:02   about stories like that when that like when the retina iPhone show yeah gives a

01:30:07   crap. The old iPhone looked great.

01:30:09   It'll look fine. It'll look fine.

01:30:12   Yeah. If the old iPhone had such an amazing screen, how bad could it look on the new screen?

01:30:18   Only when it came out were they appalled and started jumping all over it.

01:30:23   Yeah. As geeks, we tended to be more sensitive to that than most people. But yeah, most people

01:30:29   can tell when presented with this stuff that it's like, "That's not right." It opens up

01:30:36   a lot of interesting scenarios too as far as Apple's concerned, right? Once you have

01:30:43   this notion of UIs that can adapt to different sizes, right? Well, all of a sudden, what

01:30:53   about a UI for an Apple TV or what about a UI for some wearable device or, you know,

01:31:02   don't necessarily have to be that magic you know 320 or 640 with or that magic

01:31:11   11 god I always forget what it is is 1156 no 1136 1136 you know how I

01:31:19   remember it I remember it by the the classic George Lucas movie thx 1138 -

01:31:28   It's too it's too last why couldn't they have made it a little and I that's what I always lament is

01:31:34   Why didn't they make it 1138 cuz and it would have been awesome and there's always that's actually a good way to remember it

01:31:39   It's too last

01:31:40   It's just spitefully too last which might be what 750 is if it's really 750

01:31:46   It might be too less than the the much neater 752

01:31:49   But I always remember that right and there's all sorts of in jokes like in Star Wars the cell block where Princess Leia is held

01:31:56   as cell block 1 1 3 8

01:31:58   All George Lucas's movies are filled with

01:32:01   one one three eight

01:32:04   It's it is it's his number right, but the iPhone is two off

01:32:08   That's a good way to remember it. I want that you thank you. You know, it's the sick way

01:32:13   Yeah, thank you as the as that size gets obviated into

01:32:17   For two weeks, I'll be happy, right?

01:32:24   Yeah

01:32:26   So are you gonna go with a 4.7 or 5.5?

01:32:28   that's this that's my big dilemma right now knowing and and

01:32:32   You know do I want something that fits in my pocket better or do I want something that?

01:32:36   You know that's my big you fleshy palm better single most frequently asked question. I've gotten over them since I've published ah

01:32:45   my answer is I'm gonna do my best to keep an open mind and

01:32:50   You know assuming that I'm getting invited them out at the event and get to see the devices

01:32:55   You know withhold judgment until I see them

01:32:57   But in advance, what do I expect I expect that I would I'll get the 4.7

01:33:03   because my eyes are not bad enough that I want a device specifically to get it bigger and

01:33:09   I've seen five seen devices with 5.5 inch displays. There's a Nokia that I played with at the build conference

01:33:18   And it's a really interesting device just as a geek just looking at it as a gadget. It's really interesting

01:33:23   But to me, but it does not seem pretty something

01:33:27   I would want to carry around and in my pants all the time that it just seems too big

01:33:31   Might fit your hand though like a normal iPhone. It fits most of our hands

01:33:35   John my pockets are the same size your pockets are the same size, but your hands

01:33:41   I feel like you could be like the hand model for it and make it look like it's like a normal size iPhone

01:33:46   Actually, I can do that with an iPad mini so

01:33:48   It really is though I'm telling you look I haven't seen a Nokia with a 5.5 inch screen

01:33:54   It is exactly what you think though where?

01:33:57   If they didn't tell you what the device was and they just say here's the thing and you maybe if you went back two or three

01:34:05   Years before the big super phones became prominent and somebody said what do you think?

01:34:10   This is a really huge phone or a really small tablet. I think you would be like

01:34:15   I don't know.

01:34:17   It's impossible to decide.

01:34:19   It is that big.

01:34:20   Or if you prefer, it's that small.

01:34:23   I think that is the secret to the demand for these things.

01:34:28   It's people who want to do more work on the device they carry with them all the way, all

01:34:35   the places.

01:34:36   The way that Tim Cook says he does – what does he say?

01:34:39   80 percent of his work on an iPad?

01:34:43   if you really want to do a lot more of your work on the device that you carry

01:34:46   your on your phone you I could see how you might want that I really do I'm all

01:34:51   know that I yeah I'm always curious to watch my wife's reaction to these things

01:34:57   because she doesn't not react to the these changes the way that I react to I

01:35:05   mean she forget when the iPad mini first that I've had iPod mini first came out

01:35:12   She was like, "Oh, I gotta go get one of those."

01:35:14   And I'm like, "What?

01:35:15   What?

01:35:16   It's smaller.

01:35:17   It's got less storage spaces.

01:35:18   But it fits better in my purse."

01:35:20   Right.

01:35:21   Right.

01:35:22   Okay.

01:35:23   Different point of view.

01:35:25   She does a lot of work on her iPhone now.

01:35:29   She's doing email all the time.

01:35:31   It's like she...

01:35:32   That's almost to a detriment that she's on that thing a lot.

01:35:39   I could see here wanting the larger one just because it's not as big as their iPad, but

01:35:47   it lets you write longer messages, presumably going to be more comfortable to type on.

01:35:52   Is it going to have a split keyboard, or is it going to have an iPhone-esque keyboard?

01:35:59   I wonder, like when you're in landscape mode, yeah.

01:36:02   Yeah.

01:36:03   I think about email and I think about how you know that's long proven

01:36:08   by usability studies, and you know either

01:36:11   Bigger display like on your desktop bigger displays or dual displays that having more

01:36:16   Desktop in front of you makes you more productive because you see you you know we're you know not to get all Syracuse here

01:36:24   But we're you know our minds most of our minds for most people were we're spatially

01:36:32   Our minds think spatially and we think like my emails over here my web browsers over here

01:36:37   And if you could see them both at once while you're writing an email referring to a web page

01:36:42   Your brain works better than if you have to keep to command tabbing between the two because they overlap

01:36:48   And just as a little thing, but I find like when I'm reading I email on my iPad

01:36:54   I always turn the screen to landscape so I can see the list of messages and see the selected message at the same time

01:37:01   Uh being able to do that on an iPhone if they do the iPhone mail on the big phone

01:37:07   like they did in that demo at WWDC where they

01:37:11   You know show to two pains at once that could be a huge productivity thing

01:37:17   I really I mean for somebody who if there's you know business people or people who for their work

01:37:21   Do you know dozens and dozens of emails a day on their phone?

01:37:27   Having a device where you can see the list of your you know you see your inbox and the selected message at the same time

01:37:32   I don't think that's a little thing

01:37:34   I think that's a big thing or even just replying to a message right which is a

01:37:38   Lot of what I see my wife doing is she's scrolling up and down right she's gonna scroll down into the message to get the

01:37:44   Context for her reply which is at the top of the message right and constantly move back well if the screens bigger

01:37:51   You know you can see the bottom part of the message

01:37:55   You can see the top part of the message and you don't have to do all that scrolling back and forth

01:37:58   I mean it really I think the larger screen is gonna be more productive

01:38:02   Right now for the board not having to scroll it all in the first place, right? Yeah, like the message and

01:38:07   You're you know, I don't know 300 word email to me

01:38:11   I see the whole thing without having to scroll at all

01:38:14   Even though scrolling on the phone is so easy because your thumb is right there and you just do it

01:38:17   You know if you're moving through 20 new emails and you want to do it before

01:38:23   you know your

01:38:25   Bus shows up or whatever you're what you know, your train shows up that you're waiting for and here it comes

01:38:30   You know, it makes you feel more efficient

01:38:32   Yeah, I think it's gonna be insanely popular

01:38:35   I think I think my guess is there's probably gonna be like a waiting list for the 5.5 and the

01:38:40   4.7 might be a little bit more available. Well, yeah according to Ben Thompson, you know, it's like all his

01:38:46   yeah, a lot of

01:38:49   He's the guy he lives

01:38:52   He's in Taiwan.

01:38:54   Yeah, Taiwan.

01:38:56   And supposedly all his wife and her friends have all gotten these big Android devices

01:39:06   and they're really looking forward to this new larger iPhone coming out so they can ditch

01:39:12   the Android device and get it back on the iPhone because they need that large screen.

01:39:19   Maybe that is a perceived need, but probably not.

01:39:23   It's probably they have a good reason for wanting these larger screens.

01:39:28   I personally...

01:39:35   Part of me wants to get the larger screen just because it's, as a developer, it's the

01:39:39   new thing.

01:39:40   It's kind of the oddball.

01:39:44   But both the 4.7 and the 5.5 are an oddball.

01:39:49   I'm not sure I'm going to want that larger thing in my pocket.

01:39:52   It's really that comes down to that.

01:39:54   I mean I've got an iPad that I use in the evening.

01:39:58   I love my iPad mini.

01:40:01   What's the difference between an iPad mini and a 5.5 inch iPhone?

01:40:06   Yeah, I think it's – and I've seen people who've – it's all true.

01:40:13   It's all tradeoffs though.

01:40:14   Everything is tradeoffs.

01:40:15   You know some of that skepticism that Apple, you know

01:40:18   There's still people even with all the rumors that there's still people who are skeptical that Apple would do a 5.5 inch iPhone

01:40:23   Just on general principle and one of the arguments is it'll cannibalize sales of the iPad mini

01:40:28   I think that's absolutely true, but I don't think it's true that it would keep Apple from doing it

01:40:33   I think that you know, they want to have a continuum of device sizes that whatever your

01:40:39   Perceived need is that you meet

01:40:42   You know that you have something to buy if you want to buy an iPhone and an iPad mini great

01:40:47   They're apples twice as happy than if you just bought one device

01:40:50   But if you really just want to buy one device there sure as shit way happier if you buy a five point five inch iPhone

01:40:56   And only a five point five inch iPhone then if you buy a Samsung Galaxy Note

01:41:00   Right, so and I you know, and I think Apple, you know as has had that mindset

01:41:07   All along in that, you know the post next era, you know under Steve Jobs under Tim Cook

01:41:13   I think the whole company has been you know, unafraid to cannibalize itself so as not to be cannibalized by an opponent

01:41:21   You know, right? It's the same way. It goes back to the iPod mini right and the iPod nano

01:41:26   All right, and it's and the the way that Steve Jobs called the original iPhone the best iPod we've ever made

01:41:33   Right right there on stage. You said this is the best iPod we've ever made now

01:41:36   I think it's arguable and there were a lot of people who are like

01:41:39   I actually kind of like my iPod for just for listening to music

01:41:42   But they went the other way if anything they bragged about how you know, you don't need an iPod

01:41:46   You just have this phone that has everything when at a time when the iPod was the majority of the company's revenue and profits

01:41:52   You know

01:41:53   Whereas I think the traditional way that a company would be is the iPod division would have such political sway within the company

01:42:00   That they would block the oh, yeah

01:42:03   Yeah, there's a political bullshit going on. Yeah, they would say well you can't play music

01:42:08   You have to like tether your iPod to your phone to play music through or some you know crazy thing like that

01:42:13   That's the way tech companies typically worked

01:42:16   You know and still work is somebody would you know would block it like in the way that the crazy?

01:42:21   Contortions that Microsoft still goes through to put windows on everything

01:42:25   You know that the iPod division would have somehow you know

01:42:30   Don't let me ask you another question. Do you think there will be an iPod touch with these new dimensions? Oh

01:42:35   Let's come back to that. I'm gonna do that. I have one more sponsor and ask that asked me that in in two minutes

01:42:41   Okay, I want to thank our good friends another recurring sponsor longtime friend of the show hover

01:42:47   HOV ER best domain registrar in the world. I was listening to ATP last week and Marco said

01:42:55   That he gets complaints every week about the way he pronounces their name and he says exactly like I do I think hover

01:43:01   And it's like I'm the king of mispronouncing words on a podcast. I have no idea how else you could pronounce that HOV ER

01:43:08   HOV ER like what a helicopter does who there?

01:43:12   I don't know. I'm actually at a loss. I can't wait. I don't know if there's a new episode yet

01:43:19   I'm hoping that there's follow-up on ATP because he asked for somebody to explain how else you could pronounce it. But anyway, I

01:43:25   Just in case anybody is confused. It's h-o-v-e-r

01:43:29   They are a great and long-standing

01:43:32   domain registrar talk about a business the the domain registration makes the mattress business look like a

01:43:40   Charity

01:43:44   This is the typically the scum of the earth. I mean, they'll they'll steal your money. They'll swindle you

01:43:50   I think that is a lot of crooked domain registrar's out there that if you start searching for domain names on their site

01:43:55   They like register them behind your back to sell them to you at a higher price

01:43:58   I don't trust them as far as I can throw them hover is the other way around

01:44:02   really great

01:44:05   everything customer service

01:44:07   their interface their options their prices

01:44:11   They've got all of the new top-level domains that you could possibly want if you want

01:44:18   want .guru or .plumber or whatever the hell else is available. Anything you could want,

01:44:25   Hover's got it. And because if you're like me and you've got domain names registered

01:44:31   from 10, 15 years ago and you did it all over the internet with no really rhyme or reason

01:44:36   or long-term thinking, they've got this amazing thing. You sign up for Hover and it's called

01:44:42   valet service. You just talk to them. You say, "Look, I've got these domains at this

01:44:48   other company," whatever it is. Give your login to the other company, to your repit

01:44:53   hover, and they'll go through all of the stuff to move your DNS and set up. Valet transfer

01:45:00   service, it's completely painless, and they do it for free. They take care of the whole

01:45:04   process for you because they know. This is why they do it. You think, "Well, that's too

01:45:07   good to be true."

01:45:08   John Greenewald That's why they hit the total pain in the

01:45:10   But it's a huge pain in the ass, but they do it their valet transfer experts do it all the time

01:45:16   They that's all they specialize in so they know DNS and screwing up your DNS. Ah, it's the worst

01:45:22   Yeah, or even just are you having it how to initiate the transfers between the yeah

01:45:27   It's a in every domain registrar has a little bit different process

01:45:32   It's yeah, they call it a lock or they call it a whatever cover knows how to handle this way

01:45:37   Honestly that alone that is is the best thing that they have

01:45:41   Totally personal totally professional really really cool customer service

01:45:46   If you don't already have your own domain name, you can get a domain name

01:45:50   Then you have your own email address

01:45:51   You can have it for the rest of your life and instead of having a stupid

01:45:54   Gmail or whatever email address get your own domain name and you'll have an email address that you can take with you

01:45:59   Wherever you go for the rest of your life. You won't regret it

01:46:03   They even have email forwarding. It's just five bucks and then you can just use your same

01:46:07   Inbox where you have your email now, you don't have to change anything

01:46:11   Except that your email will come to your new, you know at whatever calm

01:46:16   Where do you go to find out more?

01:46:19   easy go to hover calm and

01:46:22   When you sign up

01:46:26   Use this code

01:46:29   Promos promo is good for 10% off the entire purchase for all new customers

01:46:34   Here's the code chowder

01:46:37   Ch ow der hover comes up with the best

01:46:41   per show codes ever

01:46:44   Chowder chowder

01:46:48   Go to hover comm and check them out if you need a new domain name go there

01:46:53   And if you have domain name somewhere else go to hover and sign up and have their valet service move them over

01:46:58   You won't regret it. So my thanks to them. Alright, what was your question again?

01:47:04   You're a press touch.

01:47:06   That's a great question.

01:47:09   5.5.

01:47:10   So I was just thinking about this, looking at some of these product links that have come out,

01:47:16   or leaks, you know, of the new iPhones and what they look like and how they kind of look like

01:47:20   the form factor of the current iPads. Last year, there were no new iPod touches. It's the

01:47:28   The ones if you go into the Apple store today, they're effectively the same ones that have been on sale for two years. Yeah

01:47:33   Yeah, the previous generation was the same way where they've got it seems like now for four years

01:47:40   They've had the iPod touch on a two-year cycle

01:47:43   So if that stays the same there will be new ones this year, but there have been no rumors about it

01:47:48   That doesn't prove anything but who knows but the thing I remember is at the event the Apple event where the iPhone

01:47:55   5 was announced

01:47:58   And

01:48:00   They said okay, you know, it was a press event there. I thank you very much

01:48:04   You know, there's a room over there you guys if you anybody want to have a hands-on you go over him

01:48:08   and so I went over there and I was with mg seaguller and

01:48:11   Everybody made a bum rush for the phones and the iPhones and I wanted to see him too

01:48:16   But the iPod touch the new iPod touches were there too and it was the table they were on was far less crowded

01:48:22   so mg and I went over there and we were looking at the

01:48:25   at the

01:48:27   At the iPods we did we played with the phone for a little bit

01:48:30   But we you know left to the side because it was just too crowded

01:48:33   we go over and look at the iPods and they were so amazingly thin it was like I

01:48:37   I just can't believe how thin this is

01:48:41   I know I've only spent a grand total of like 20 seconds with the new iPhone 5 and I'm already

01:48:46   kind of more impressed by this device because it's so much thinner and

01:48:51   the iPhone 5 and the 5s are about as thin as the two generation ago iPod touch like pretty much throughout

01:49:00   Pretty much for the entire life of the iPhone the iPod touch has been a generation ahead in terms of how thin

01:49:09   The next one is going to be if there is one it would be amazingly thin

01:49:13   Hey, this is Dave cutting in to let you know that Craig's audio is about to go haywire here in a minute

01:49:19   I don't know what happened. Maybe he had a wrong button or like nine wrong buttons

01:49:23   But it only goes that way for a minute or so and then it goes back to normal so don't freak out

01:49:27   Also this cut in was brought to you by Squarespace, so I don't know

01:49:31   I don't know what to expect though because and it's you know

01:49:33   No, I don't either

01:49:48   you know it's 7.7, it'd be great playing games, it'd be awesome for music, the album would work great on that thing.

01:50:01   [inaudible]

01:50:11   [inaudible]

01:50:21   and then you know that there were probably the old sizes of

01:50:25   multiples getting around here, the lower end, you know,

01:50:30   is 5C or 6.6.

01:50:37   - Yeah, that's a good thing.

01:50:39   - But I think 6, you know, is it gonna be 6C

01:50:43   or maybe they're gonna continue to call it 5C

01:50:47   and come out and do something, you know.

01:50:49   I have no idea.

01:50:50   Six, six, six, six, six, six.

01:50:53   I don't know what, I'm so terrible.

01:50:56   Of all the things I can predict,

01:50:58   predicting names, I'm never right,

01:51:00   so I'm not even gonna bother.

01:51:02   If I had to guess, though, it would be

01:51:05   something like iPhone 6 and iPhone 6L,

01:51:08   but I honestly don't know.

01:51:10   Where the six would be the 4.7 inch one,

01:51:12   and it's defined as being the,

01:51:14   that's like the standard iPhone 6,

01:51:17   And the iPhone, the big one, the 5.5 one is the one that, you know, I know people have

01:51:23   tossed around the name iPhone Air.

01:51:26   That doesn't make sense to me, though, for either one.

01:51:28   I don't know.

01:51:30   Maybe the 4.7 would be called the Air.

01:51:31   I don't know.

01:51:32   But I don't know.

01:51:33   I don't know.

01:51:34   Basically, there's going to be a 5.5-inch, a 4.7-inch, a 4-inch, and that's probably

01:51:45   it, right?

01:51:46   Here's why I don't think that there will be a 5.5 inch iPod touch is that I think

01:51:52   As I've said, I think the 5.5 inch iPhone is going to go triple retina and I don't think the 4.7 will

01:51:59   And we can I should talk about that too because that's part of the follow-up

01:52:04   I you know, a lot of people are pushing me back on that maybe be the last point but

01:52:08   They're gonna I think they're gonna charge at least an extra hundred bucks for the same size for the 5.5

01:52:15   But that's for the most of the markets where the iPhone is strongest

01:52:19   It's subsidized pricing where you buy your iPhone with a two-year contract and the real price is hidden

01:52:24   That's going to be a super expensive screen. It's going to be a super expensive battery

01:52:29   Everything's gonna be more expensive than that

01:52:32   And I'm already spending you're always spending a couple hundred dollars to get the iPhone upgrade anyway another hundred dollars

01:52:39   It's like there's no Apple care is gonna cost another hundred dollars

01:52:43   You can't hide the price of that with the iPod touch because the iPod touch isn't so all right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right

01:52:49   So the iPod touch if there's a new one, I think it's gonna have the 4.7 inch screen. Yeah the same

01:52:55   326 pixel per inch that the iPod touch already has right?

01:53:01   It's just gonna be a little bit bigger and I think it's way more feasible

01:53:04   To you know

01:53:06   Sell it at the same price points that we're used to selling the iPod touch at and look at what the iPod touch is mainly

01:53:11   use for it. Music, games, social media, and videos. Yeah, and that's all, you know, it's

01:53:19   not a productivity thing, right? You know, the teenager who's getting an iPod Touch for

01:53:25   Christmas is not thinking, "Oh yeah, cool, I can run Microsoft Word on this now." He's

01:53:31   thinking, "Oh yeah, Candy Crush," or whatever the current thing is.

01:53:37   Yeah, and so the last thing, and this is a big pushback, and this is a super frequently

01:53:41   asked response to my

01:53:44   Daring Fireball piece over the weekend is

01:53:47   How in the world, you know, why in the world would Apple go 3x on 1, the 5.5, and 2x

01:53:53   stay at 2x on the 4.7?

01:53:56   They're either gonna do 2x on both or they're gonna go 3x on both, and there's no way they would do it any other way.

01:54:03   And there's a certain logic to that but the more I think about it the more I think if they're going to charge more for

01:54:08   the big one

01:54:09   They need to it needs to be more technically impressive not just physically bigger

01:54:14   and I think there's a

01:54:18   very serious battery life issue with that where

01:54:22   And I'll put it in the show notes if I can remember but there's a there was a good piece at a non tech about

01:54:28   the the push towards super high resolutions and phones going from the 300 and some DPI range to 400 and some DPI

01:54:36   Because there's some other phones, you know, there's some HTC phones with 450 460 pixels prints and

01:54:43   According to them and I you know, I trust an on tech it takes going at the same size

01:54:48   Going from around 350 to 450 pixels per inch comes with a 20% penalty in energy consumption

01:54:56   Just for the display or yet well for the number of pixels right at the same side you're lighting up more transistors

01:55:03   Yeah, right not talking about the increase in size, but just the increase in transistors for the number of pixels is about a 20%

01:55:09   Penalty the

01:55:14   5.5 according to all the component leaks the 5.5 inch iPhone has a 60% bigger battery

01:55:20   So it's the battery is more than bigger enough

01:55:24   To compensate for the 20% penalty whereas a 4.7 inch iPhone just doesn't have room for a much bigger battery than the 4.0 inch iPhone

01:55:31   So I think a energy consumption and be that hundred dollar price difference that I think they're going to charge that they can

01:55:38   You know the 5.5 can still hit the iPhone size margins and the 4.7 couldn't at least not this year

01:55:45   And then that leaves room in the future for either next year or the year after that for a 3x retina

01:55:51   4.7 iPhone

01:55:53   But I don't think it's going to—I think the reason it won't happen this year is price

01:55:57   and energy consumption and the size of the battery that they can put in the phone.

01:56:02   That's the other thing productivity-wise.

01:56:05   Productivity-wise that might drive people towards the 5.5 is I wouldn't be surprised

01:56:11   if when they say, "Here's your expected battery life," if the 5.5 is just a preposterous

01:56:16   number, that it goes from, I don't know, 12 hours of use to 20 hours of use or something

01:56:21   like that.

01:56:22   But could it really, I mean if it's driving that much bigger of a display and they're

01:56:29   going to want to keep it thin, okay, yeah, you have a little bit more X and Y but you

01:56:35   got no more Z.

01:56:36   I don't know.

01:56:37   Yeah, I agree with you on the Z but I don't know.

01:56:42   I just wouldn't be surprised if they put it up and it has just a seemingly, at least compared

01:56:48   to the other model iPhone a huge jump in daily battery life maybe not maybe it'll

01:56:56   you know maybe you're right and it'll you know be there'll be more or less

01:57:00   equivalent but yeah I think there'll be anything else other than display sizes I

01:57:06   don't think I don't think I don't see there being any thing like a touch ID or

01:57:11   speed bumps or anything to separate the two or anything new anything new I think

01:57:16   this is going to be all about display sizes. It's like the jump between the 4S and the

01:57:22   5 in my mind. It's, you know, we're on that cycle where, okay, it's all about the display

01:57:29   this time. It's, you know, there may be something new with a 6S, you know, in a year's time

01:57:37   or something like that. But I think it's - they're going to be - yeah, these displays are going

01:57:45   to be impressive. They're going to be impressive. And that's the thing that Apple's going to

01:57:52   go, "Hey, look at this." It's going to be great, though, because basically Touch ID

01:58:00   is going to be across the line now, right?

01:58:02   Yeah, it'll move down the line.

01:58:05   Some 5C equivalent thing is going to have Touch ID now.

01:58:12   Here's how I think the lineup will look. I think the lineup will be top price is the

01:58:18   5.5 inch iPhone.

01:58:20   Right.

01:58:21   $100 less for the same amount of storage, the new 4.7. I think other than the display,

01:58:27   everything about those two phones will be the same. I think they'll have the same better

01:58:31   than ever camera and they'll have the same touch ID. I think if they add anything new

01:58:38   to the M8 motion coprocessor.

01:58:42   If there's an M9 that has even more health tracking stuff, they'll both get the same

01:58:47   thing.

01:58:49   If there are any kind of technical improvements to the fingerprint scanner, I think they'll

01:58:53   both get the exact same improvement.

01:58:57   Everything other than the display, I think, will be the same.

01:58:59   I think they'll have the same A – what are they up to?

01:59:02   – A8 CPU system on a chip.

01:59:03   Do you think they'll go with a new CPU?

01:59:06   Yeah, I think so.

01:59:08   They could, that 4.7, or excuse me, A7 is...

01:59:13   It is pretty good.

01:59:14   And you know, somebody has said something about,

01:59:16   you know, what it, about the GPU being able to handle

01:59:19   the 22 by 12 whatever.

01:59:23   Yeah, I can drive an iPad mini.

01:59:25   I mean, it does a great job with it.

01:59:27   Yeah, and that actually has more total pixels.

01:59:31   Yeah, 'cause it's only 2048 in the larger dimension,

01:59:34   but because the wide dimension, 'cause it's four to three,

01:59:37   if you multiply it's like over three million pixels and

01:59:40   and this is one of those that's all about the display

01:59:45   cycle it's not about the CPU i don't know though i don't know i just feel

01:59:49   though that they're on i feel like that they're their chip group

01:59:53   is on a tear oh yeah they're they're on fire

01:59:56   but i don't think they need to i think they will just because their chip group

01:59:59   is on fire and it's almost like right topic for

02:00:02   a separate show is that whole topic of are they ever going to have one that

02:00:06   that's, you know, speed compatible with like a low-end Intel chip.

02:00:10   Yeah, it's astounding to me that the improvements that the CPUs have seen.

02:00:17   Yeah, I just don't think they'll take a year off on that because I think that they're like

02:00:22   firing on all cylinders and that they, you know, effectively at the same price that they made the

02:00:27   A7 last year, they can make an even better A8 and they're not going to take a year off.

02:00:33   Look at how many Android devices are running with a 64-bit processor right now.

02:00:38   Yeah, cricket's chirping.

02:00:42   So let's list them out.

02:00:44   All right.

02:00:47   Now that we're done with that exhaustive list.

02:00:52   No, I think that the two new iPhones will be at the top, $100 a part in price.

02:00:58   Anything that one has, the other will have, except for the super display.

02:01:03   I think that the five s stays around for another year and they do that they go back to what

02:01:09   they used to do and the five s drops $100 in price and takes the mid tier and I think

02:01:16   the five c stays around and becomes the free with contract phone as is without any changes

02:01:22   I don't think I think so I think touch id moves down a tear because the five s moves

02:01:26   down a tear but I don't think it moves all the way down to the bottom I think it'll be

02:01:32   another year before it does. That's my guess and I don't think there's gonna be

02:01:37   a 6c I don't think there's gonna be a new plastic you know phone I think that

02:01:40   the new if you want a bigger iPhone you have to buy the new you have to buy at

02:01:45   the top of the line. What would be another potential scenario is to take the current

02:01:51   5s and fit it into the current 5c. Right like a 5 5 cs that has touch ID in an a

02:02:01   It could.

02:02:02   It depends on, you know, it's like Apple likes simplified product lines, right?

02:02:09   You know, that was the whole thing Steve Jobs brought back to Apple, right?

02:02:12   It's like, you know, that simple four product matrix, you know, pro-consumer, desktop, laptop.

02:02:18   And you know, that, you know, us talking about, well, okay, let's have four different models

02:02:24   of iPhone.

02:02:25   Do you really need four different models of iPhone?

02:02:29   I mean, yeah, but they do like to have that free phone.

02:02:33   Right.

02:02:34   Yeah.

02:02:35   And I'm sure that they've – for certain people, that's an important thing, right?

02:02:41   It's like they – all this phone is free.

02:02:45   All I got to do is get my monthly bill to the carrier.

02:02:48   Right.

02:02:49   Here's what I wrote two years ago.

02:02:52   And this was in response to a guy – I actually got in there and responded to him.

02:02:56   It was a guy on Hacker News who after I put my piece up who said, "Okay, I'm not trying

02:03:01   to be a dick here," which is always a good sign that you're trying to be a dick.

02:03:05   But every time I see the rumor about the screen size of the iPhone 6, it always reminds me

02:03:09   how Gruber and Jim Dalrymple, two of the biggest Apple fans on the Internet, mock the screen

02:03:13   size of Samsung Note before.

02:03:18   I definitely cracked some jokes about using those big-ass phones as phones.

02:03:22   I think the iPhone 5.5 is going to look ridiculous if you hold it up to your ear and use it as

02:03:26   a phone. But here's what I wrote two years ago when the iPhone 5 shipped. I wrote, "There's

02:03:30   no argument that some people really do like these big closer to 5 than 4-inch Android

02:03:36   and Windows phones." I was in a Verizon retail store yesterday—long story, don't ask

02:03:40   why—and overheard a relatively small woman buying a Samsung Galaxy S3. That was a 5-inch

02:03:46   phone. A companion asked her if she wasn't worried that it was too big, and she said,

02:03:53   big was exactly what she wanted because she doesn't have a tablet and wanted to do a lot of reading on

02:03:57   Whatever phone she got and she even said she was thinking about the bigger galaxy note

02:04:04   But Verizon didn't carry it and she wanted to stay on Verizon

02:04:07   It was like like a conversation out of a Samsung commercial such people surely think the iPhone 5's

02:04:14   Four inch display remains too small

02:04:17   But trust me

02:04:18   There's going to be many longtime iPhone users complaining that it's too big after they upgrade because that was me talking about how hard it

02:04:24   Was to reach the corner with one hand

02:04:26   So here's what I said in an ideal world

02:04:28   perhaps Apple would offer to iPhone sizes like they do with products like MacBook pros and MacBook errors a

02:04:34   Smaller one with the classic 3.5 inch display and a larger one with say a 4.5 inch display for people who want that

02:04:44   So I think I've been on on on the team of hey

02:04:48   They should have two sized iPhones a bigger one and a smaller one

02:04:51   For a while, but I think I under did one thing I underestimated was just how much bigger

02:04:56   Phones could and would and demand would show that they get that my idea that they'd stick with the 3.5 inch and maybe add a 4.5

02:05:05   Wasn't enough. Yeah. Well the other thing to think about too is people's habits as far as

02:05:12   using the quote unquote phone have changed, right? I see a lot of people talking on their phone

02:05:19   in ways that where the phone is not up to their ear, right?

02:05:24   Yeah.

02:05:24   Talking through your headset, talking to the speakerphone.

02:05:28   Yep.

02:05:29   It's, yes it looks ridiculous when you hold it up to your ear. But I mean, I look at my wife,

02:05:37   She does conference calls all the time and she's got, you know, her, you know, the earbuds in and

02:05:43   it's, you know, the phones are sitting there on the desk. Yeah, I think it's a leg - it's a legacy

02:05:48   from the old telephone system that we think of, you know, that guys like me and you still think

02:05:52   of a phone as something you hold up to your ear and talk into your mind. And it's convenient to

02:05:56   do that sometimes, right? You know, if you're out and about and you got a phone call, you know,

02:06:01   you hold it up to your ear and you talk and, you know, it's a, you know, it's literally a five

02:06:06   conversation. I don't, I don't talk, you know, you'd say that you have to call these people, right?

02:06:14   Like what? I just want to talk to people over chat or email or social networks and you know I still love having

02:06:25   conversations in person, you know, like we're having now, right? That's still an important thing but you know

02:06:35   conversations phone conversations yeah don't do that very often no almost never

02:06:40   and I just don't think it's a reason it's not a it's no longer a reason to to

02:06:45   dictate the size of the hardware yeah no no right and it's you know I think it's

02:06:53   very similar to using a tablet no matter how big your tablet is as a camera you

02:06:59   know it does I still think it looks silly but I don't make fun of it anymore

02:07:02   more because it's too many I've seen too many hundreds of people doing it well

02:07:06   look at the camera that Ansel Adams used well but he wasn't format film right

02:07:12   it's it's a lot of people like it that was because you know Ansel Adams did it

02:07:17   because it was technically to get the incredibly yeah you know there was a

02:07:21   yeah you it would be different if the iPad had a huge sensor like a foreign if

02:07:27   If it had a four-inch image sensor and was taking images of that quality.

02:07:30   You'd be doing it even.

02:07:31   Yeah, I would be doing it too.

02:07:34   It's actually got a crummy sensor.

02:07:36   It's just got a big screen, but it's too many people do it.

02:07:39   It was worth a couple of laughs for a year or so, but now that's most people.

02:07:44   That's a lot of people's main camera.

02:07:46   So it's time to move on.

02:07:48   I see it all the time, people taking pictures of the sunset in Laguna Beach.

02:07:55   For one, it cracks me up.

02:07:58   People take pictures of the sunset by pointing the camera on the iPad at the sun.

02:08:03   It's like, and then they're looking at this big ass screen which they can barely see because

02:08:08   the sun is in their eyes.

02:08:09   The one thing that still gets people using an iPad as a camera is when they have a cover

02:08:15   and they just let the cover hang below.

02:08:18   And so they've got a double, double size rectangle in front of their face.

02:08:22   They got a dangle.

02:08:24   It's like at least fold the screen up, right?

02:08:27   It's like, you know, it accordions up.

02:08:29   You can hold it at the bottom of the phone and it won't cover the lens.

02:08:32   It's like at least fold that up.

02:08:33   Yeah, and it actually makes it a little bit thicker and easier to hold.

02:08:38   It almost looks like they're into witness protection and they're hiding.

02:08:42   Yeah, but you know, as developers we learn that people are going to do what they're going

02:08:47   to do, right?

02:08:48   And you just kind of adapt to that.

02:08:50   It's like you can't force people to do things that you'd think make more sense

02:08:55   What do you think? What do you think you're gonna do for buying a new phone?

02:08:59   You're on the fence. Do you do you think you would wait until you could see him in the store?

02:09:04   So yeah, I'm definitely gonna have to wait and see him in this

02:09:07   I I think that's gonna be a huge difference this year

02:09:10   I was thinking about I think there's gonna be an awful lot of people who

02:09:13   Otherwise would have if they only had one new iPhone they would just pre-order it

02:09:18   So they could get it as soon as they can.

02:09:20   But they're not.

02:09:21   They're going to wait until they can see it in stores so that they can make an informed

02:09:25   decision about which of the two they want to get.

02:09:27   **Matt Stauffer** The lines are going to be insane.

02:09:28   **J

02:09:28   Yeah I do think so. It's gonna be insane because so many people in the last cycle or the last couple cycles actually have just gotten the device delivered by FedEx or whoever you know delivers it in your area.

02:09:48   But now people want to see it.

02:09:50   Yeah.

02:09:51   Totally.

02:09:52   And, you know, you're going to be in a better position than most people because you'll have

02:09:58   actually seen it at the press event.

02:10:00   But...

02:10:01   Right.

02:10:02   Possibly, you know, get a review unit.

02:10:04   But, you know, knock on wood there.

02:10:05   You know, I never find out until the day of.

02:10:08   Yeah.

02:10:09   But at least I hope to see them both at the press event.

02:10:15   I think I'll get to 4/7.

02:10:17   It really is one of those things that I would lean now towards the 4.7 just again because

02:10:24   I've got the iPad mini which suits my needs just fine and that after dinner reading something

02:10:35   to do while commercials are playing on the TV or whatever.

02:10:39   But yeah, the 5.5 is actually more interesting from an user interface point of view because

02:10:46   it extends the thumb targets, right?

02:10:51   Oh, totally.

02:10:52   You've got to…it's a new…I mean with the mini, the iPad mini, you basically say,

02:11:01   "Okay, you can't move your thumb from the lower left to the upper right if you're

02:11:06   right-handed."

02:11:07   I spent like half my review of the iPhone 5 talking about how I couldn't reach the

02:11:11   top corner with my thumb, and that was a half-inch difference.

02:11:14   This is two inches different from the 3.5 inch original iPhone.

02:11:19   So you know, part of me wants to get that larger phone just to understand the ergonomics

02:11:28   of the new device.

02:11:31   From a purely practical point of view, it's like, okay, I want something smaller to put

02:11:36   in my pocket.

02:11:37   So yeah, everybody's going to have a similar kind of, you know, well, choice A is good

02:11:47   and choice B is good.

02:11:48   Maybe I should go with A, maybe I should go with B, maybe A, B, A, B, A, B, and you know,

02:11:56   you're going to get there.

02:11:57   In fact, you know, the lines at the Apple store are probably going to move more slowly

02:12:02   because people are choosing between A and B and not knowing which one is right. Some

02:12:08   people will go in and, "Oh, you definitely want the B. Definitely. I need the bigger

02:12:11   one. Bigger."

02:12:12   I think that the fan droid contingent are going to have an aneurysm on the basis that

02:12:18   Apple is going to market it as though they invented big screen phones. You know that

02:12:24   they are. They're going to call it revolutionary based on some sort of thing. Then the fan

02:12:30   going to be like, you know, I've had a five-inch Galaxy whatever for two and a half years.

02:12:35   They're going to go nuts. But that's, you know, Apple is either way ahead or they take their time

02:12:41   and they do it last and better. Yep. They're doing it well rather than first.

02:12:50   Yeah, in this case. What was the one more thing I wanted to… I have one more point,

02:12:57   but I forget it. Yeah, who cares? We've gone long enough. Yeah, I need to pee. Yeah, I can't even

02:13:03   imagine how big your bladder is. Yeah, it's probably a lot of large. Craig Hockenberry of

02:13:11   the Icon Factory. People can follow you on Twitter at @chockenberry. Right. I haven't been tweeting

02:13:21   much lately. I'm very busy with Yosemite and IOS 8 stuff. But yeah, that's where I am.

02:13:28   Oh, I know what I wanted to say. I have one more. Here's my one more thing. My one more

02:13:32   thing is how do they fill up a 90-minute iPhone announcement? I don't think bigger screen

02:13:39   is enough. So I'm now of the opinion that there's two paths that they take. One path

02:13:45   is not just talking about bigger but what bigger enables and it would be like a sort

02:13:50   of a productivity keynote right like look at now look at email in landscape

02:13:56   you can see two things at once you know that sort of thing and other apps that

02:14:01   they've secretly updated to act differently on this bigger iPhone they

02:14:06   could talk they could talk for 30 minutes just about iOS extensions iOS

02:14:10   extensions and the continuity and see and guess what you know iOS 8 and you

02:14:17   Yosemite are going to have to drop at the same time because of all of the iCloud cloud

02:14:23   kit.

02:14:24   Nope.

02:14:25   I think it's going to play out exactly like last year where remember iOS keychain and

02:14:33   it wasn't in iOS 7.0.

02:14:37   We had to wait until October.

02:14:38   I think we wait until October for continuity.

02:14:42   I think iOS 8 ships without continuity hooked up yet and that Yosemite will come out in

02:14:48   October with the new iPads.

02:14:55   It's in its higher profile than just the iOS keychain, but that's the reason keychain didn't

02:15:00   ship till October is because it had to ship.

02:15:02   Like you said, it has to ship at the same time.

02:15:04   The feature has to ship at the same time as Yosemite because what's the point of having

02:15:07   keychain syncing if you don't have anything to sync it to.

02:15:12   There are going to be a lot of disappointed developers as it goes down that way.

02:15:16   If they have to wait an extra month?

02:15:18   Yeah, I mean the whole thing about iCloud is that it binds your devices together, right?

02:15:26   You've got your iPhone and your--

02:15:27   I predict, I don't think Yosemite ships next month.

02:15:31   I think it ships in October.

02:15:33   And I think just like last year, I think Mac, I think it's too much to ask that they ship

02:15:36   to operating systems. Yeah, no, I get it from an engineering resources point of view and a testing

02:15:43   point of view and a deployment point of view and but you know,

02:15:47   are you, you know, this thing with like iCloud drive, right? You're going to be able to put

02:15:53   things in iCloud drive but you're not going to be able to get them on your Mac. I don't think you're

02:15:58   able to put them in iCloud drive until October. I think you have to wait for like 8.01 for all of

02:16:04   the iCloud stuff. That's my guess. I could be wrong. I don't know. That's just pure guess

02:16:09   based on last year's iCloud, the keychain thing. So how else do they fill up if I am

02:16:17   right that they don't have all that? If they do ship at the same time, then God, they'll

02:16:23   be hard-pressed to finish within two hours if they finish.

02:16:25   It's gonna be like the WWC keynote, right? It's like, you know, boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom, right, right

02:16:32   I could take a breath

02:16:34   Yeah, and and just think I mean they could fill up they could fill up 45 minutes just with demos from selected third parties

02:16:42   Who've been in secretly locked up in Cupertino for the last three weeks building cool extensions, you know easily

02:16:48   But I don't think I think that's more of an October thing

02:16:52   I think that they either fill it up with productivity stuff that you can do with the new bigger screen or

02:16:58   Health stuff that this is when they unveil I don't know if they'd unveil the device

02:17:04   I mean, I sort of guessed that they would a couple weeks ago and people had it should fit but that you know

02:17:09   The health kit stuff and what they're going to do and maybe if there is like a new

02:17:14   even better m9 and the new phones

02:17:18   This is where they explain the whole health initiative because I don't think that the health stuff fits with an October event

02:17:26   Where they have all this continuity stuff and Yosemite to explain like to me. That's my

02:17:33   That's yeah

02:17:36   What you what you're what you're what you're basically saying is that

02:17:40   the

02:17:43   September event is all about the iOS device stuff you can do on the iOS device productivity

02:17:49   tracking your health and

02:17:52   Then the October event is about

02:17:55   How all your devices tie together, yeah, right

02:17:59   That's my guess and that may be you know, if there's a big surprise

02:18:04   It would be that whatever the wearable dingus that has been rumored for a while, but everybody's sort of forgotten not forgotten

02:18:10   But as everybody's so excited about the phone that people have stopped talking about it

02:18:14   Then maybe it'll come out at the September event or at least be announced even if it doesn't come out

02:18:19   Yeah

02:18:21   That's that whole

02:18:23   I've just recently started wearing a Fitbit flex on my wrist part of it is just to start

02:18:31   You know, what does it mean to have a thing on your wrist and see I thought I would think that would be a ring

02:18:35   For you. Yeah, I

02:18:39   Got the large band on so there we go

02:18:41   But it's weird it's like I don't

02:18:47   You know, this is a great little product, but I don't see an Apple logo on it. Yeah, I don't think so

02:18:54   But anyway, I still think that that's I and again not because anybody has said hey

02:18:59   I think that the wearable things come in September

02:19:01   I'm just trying to think how do you plot two events that have like a story and I think that

02:19:07   One of them has to be about continuity and I don't I think that's the October event

02:19:12   I think that is when they have new iPad new iPads. That's when they ship Yosemite

02:19:17   And so I think that to me leaves the September one for health

02:19:22   Because I think there's got to be a health related event this fall

02:19:25   Yeah, if somebody's working his butt off to get stuff ready for September 9th

02:19:32   Yeah, you know you somebody slash iOS iCloud all that stuff happening at once. I'm like I

02:19:39   Just don't it's it's it's plausible

02:19:42   I mean what you're saying is ready to have if they weren't ready to have a health related event and possibly a health related new device

02:19:49   In the fall, I don't know why they would have added health kit to iOS 8 to me

02:19:53   Then they would have held it for iOS 9

02:19:55   But I don't know

02:19:58   Maybe because maybe if the health stuff is slipped from a 2014 thing

02:20:04   They'll do it in like February or March in which case that it still needs to be in iOS 8 because iOS 9 won't come out

02:20:11   For another year. What about that whole home kit thing - that's kind of just

02:20:15   Yeah, that would fit into

02:20:18   But that would fit in to me that would fit in at an iPhone event where you're talking about things like

02:20:23   Opening your garage door when you get close right stuff like that, right?

02:20:28   I don't know, it's interesting times. That's the thing that's so impressive about Apple

02:20:36   right now. They've got so much stuff that they're working on that's just awesome. We

02:20:44   were all blown away at WWDC by the breadth of the stuff that they announced. Now that

02:20:51   that's starting to become real. It's like the next you know the I totally believe you

02:20:59   know somebody like Eddy Cue saying this is the most impressive you know pipeline of products

02:21:04   that they've had in you know these 20 years or whatever it was. There's just they've got

02:21:12   a lot on the queue right now and so again they got a how do they you know how does it

02:21:17   come out.

02:21:18   I keep thinking about there's a couple of sites that

02:21:20   have put up, like, hey, what should you expect?

02:21:22   And they show an iPhone 5 and what a 4.7-inch phone

02:21:27   would look like next to that, what a 5.5 would

02:21:29   look next to that, and then how close that 5.5 is to the iPad

02:21:33   Mini.

02:21:33   You just have this nice continuum of devices.

02:21:36   And then add to that the possibility of a larger iPad,

02:21:40   and all of a sudden iOS is like a computing platform that

02:21:44   covers everything.

02:21:47   all sizes from easily fits in one hand to a total two-hand pro laptop size screen.

02:21:56   Yeah, and then eventually they're going to start making laptops that have ARM chips in

02:22:00   them and a whole other interesting set of things that can happen.

02:22:05   But it's just amazing to me to think that it's evolved already into something that's

02:22:10   truly like an all-encompassing computing platform.

02:22:14   Yeah.

02:22:15   Yeah.

02:22:16   It's not surprising to me.

02:22:21   When this first came out, it was

02:22:23   very clear to me that this is the next thirty years of computing.

02:22:27   We're going to be

02:22:30   refining this

02:22:31   touch display,

02:22:33   direct interaction mechanism

02:22:36   for the next thirty years, just like we have refined the

02:22:40   mouse as a

02:22:41   interacting with our computer for the past 30 years. So this is just this is

02:22:49   we're at that period where you know where there were all sorts of different

02:22:53   kinds of Macs right there was the you know the original Mac there was a you

02:22:59   know Mac with color display there was a Mac with you know different you know bus

02:23:05   architecture doesn't you know they they just there was a $12,000 Mac 2 FX yeah

02:23:11   you know that the 20th century the 20th anniversary Mac you know they're doing

02:23:16   this huge big in some ways convoluted product line so but the Mac 2 FX cost

02:23:28   more than like a Honda Civic.

02:23:30   Yeah.

02:23:31   It was insane.

02:23:32   Yeah.

02:23:33   But God, I wanted one so bad.

02:23:37   All right, Craig.

02:23:39   Let's call it a night.

02:23:41   Thank you so much for your time.

02:23:42   No, it's always a pleasure.

02:23:43   It's always a pleasure.

02:23:44   It's anybody who's not – even if he is slowed down, even if he is busy, if you're

02:23:48   not following Craig on Twitter, you're missing out.

02:23:51   It's a gold mine.