The Talk Show

59: A Dog Named Maverick


00:00:00   You had a rough week this week, huh?

00:00:02   Well with the baseball. Yeah, you have the baseball and then you got owned by Kefauzis?

00:00:08   It's just one indignity after another. That was stupid. I mean who cares? Who does something like that?

00:00:14   Tiny tiny men. Exactly. I mean, I don't care. I'm not superstitious. Superstitions are for red.

00:00:21   That just says everything you need to know about Red Sox fans.

00:00:23   You know what I mean? Like there was a, you know, when they built the new Yankee Stadium a couple years ago

00:00:28   there was some goofball guy in the construction crew who

00:00:31   apparently

00:00:34   Are supposedly purportedly reputedly?

00:00:37   Put a Red Sox jersey into like a vat of concrete that they you know

00:00:43   Poured a column or something like that and then they ended up like ripping it out or something

00:00:47   I don't even know if it was there who does stuff like that

00:00:49   Well, you know that they were cursed for what is it 86 years or whatever it was no they did weren't cursed they just stunk

00:00:57   That's it. It was it's superstitious Red Sox fans who thought it was a curse whereas Yankee fans just said, you know, they stink

00:01:05   Yeah

00:01:07   Honda good team this year though good team my elderly relatives who are Yankees fan used to call the Yankees

00:01:15   What the uncle bums always the bums those bums?

00:01:18   Always wait, but they were Yankee fans. Yeah called the Yankees the bums, huh? I

00:01:24   Thought that was I thought that was also what they used to call the the Brooklyn Dodgers

00:01:29   Yeah, I think that's what every every person who grew up, you know in New York 50 70 years ago. They're all bums

00:01:36   Big week for you last week. Yeah, do you got the review out, right? Yeah, that's why I'm doing all these podcasts

00:01:48   Yeah, I'm in demand for a week and a half a year

00:01:51   our little you know the media I

00:01:54   Don't want to call it the in the ecosphere. What do you want to call it?

00:01:58   But they you know the way that there's a bunch of cabal maybe well, but it's more than that though

00:02:03   there's also people who aren't

00:02:05   cabal implies that we're

00:02:07   Implies that there's a plan and there's not yeah exactly

00:02:11   It's just you know that there are now shows and there's more websites and stuff like that

00:02:16   But a lot of people have shows and now you can we can we as you know

00:02:21   indie nerd whatever we are is

00:02:23   But when we have something big and new come out like a new app

00:02:26   Like when I had Vesper come out last year or you when you you know, you've got the the big

00:02:32   Really? It's we call them reviews, but they're almost like

00:02:35   Short concise books if you think of them as short concise books, they don't seem so long

00:02:39   But now we can do what like

00:02:43   Actors do when a movie comes out is you go on a bunch of shows and you let people know

00:02:48   Yeah, I'm hoping that like what I try to do is I don't have to do that

00:02:53   So I don't have to go on all the shows that I don't want to go on

00:02:55   I just go on the shows that I do want to go on and that narrows down

00:02:57   Considerably like because I don't feel compelled to just you know

00:03:00   Tons and tons of offers like you know, hey come on here coming in

00:03:03   There's always you know offers here and there but as soon as this comes out

00:03:06   everybody wants to PC on I have the luxury unlike the people who have to go and promote a movie to right to pick and

00:03:11   Choose only right so but like so you're not gonna go on guy English's stupid show. No, I already blew him off

00:03:16   No, I will go on his show. It's just like I couldn't I like literally couldn't fit in the schedule

00:03:20   You know what time do I have for podcasting?

00:03:22   I have like after the kids are in bed and even then usually only on weekdays and just you know

00:03:27   When I'm booked up on booked up is only you know, five slots a week and doing five things a night

00:03:31   Makes my wife angry. So yeah, I can believe that trying to try to keep that under control

00:03:36   Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if my wife would be angry or she'd be happier

00:03:40   So how would how's the reaction gone to the to the review? Yeah, it's good

00:03:46   I guess

00:03:47   Do you think people are starting to take him for granted?

00:03:49   I mean like I think you know

00:03:51   I think it's been tapering off the past few years in terms of just attention on the Mac at all

00:03:55   And so the people who like it still really really like it like that's my that's my core audience of you know

00:04:01   The people who do like what I do really really like it, but then for everyone else. It's like yeah, you know there's this thing

00:04:06   It's alright

00:04:07   I guess like if you look at the the histogram of you know because it's split up into like pages quote unquote pages

00:04:12   but not really.

00:04:13   If you look at the histogram of who visits the first page,

00:04:16   second page, third page, or whatever,

00:04:18   it looks like a big U shape.

00:04:19   Because tons of people get the first page,

00:04:21   and tons of people read the last page,

00:04:23   and people who read the middle not so much.

00:04:25   So it's always been like that, but now it just-- it does well.

00:04:31   A lot of people read it.

00:04:34   But I think just the interest in it in general

00:04:37   is people aren't as excited.

00:04:38   And it was the 10th one, 10th major release.

00:04:40   It's like all right. I guess they're still doing that Mac thing. Let's learn about it a little bit, and that's that

00:04:45   Do you ever think about doing them for iOS too? No no no I don't I don't I don't want to do them for iOS

00:04:53   I don't feel like I mean you could say like oh well

00:04:55   I do them for the Mac because I've got all this history you know being a Mac user since 1984 and everything well

00:05:00   I've been an iOS user since pretty much day one too, but it just doesn't feel the same to me

00:05:04   You know doesn't it's not that's not my thing some kid who was 12 years old in

00:05:10   2007 should be doing these iOS reviews you know what I mean like for whom

00:05:14   iOS is that that seminal technology moment in their life and for me that was the Mac, but it's not

00:05:20   iOS is not that for me a little if you you know if you look at my reviews

00:05:24   iOS is just like this shadow that looms over the entire thing because it's hard to even talk about the Mac without

00:05:29   You know

00:05:31   Comparing comparing it to iOS and thinking about how it is a reaction to iOS or how iOS might be a reaction to what it's doing

00:05:39   Like, it's impossible to do an OS X review

00:05:41   without talking about iOS.

00:05:42   So I do, but I wouldn't want to review the OS proper.

00:05:46   Yeah, in other words, it's your obsession

00:05:50   with Mac OS X that drives it.

00:05:52   It's not just that you want to have

00:05:56   a big, comprehensive review of something that Apple's done.

00:06:00   This is the thing that you really-- your mind just

00:06:03   naturally latches onto wanting to know all these details.

00:06:07   And I like Macs better, and I like the things

00:06:09   you can do with them.

00:06:10   And a lot of the technology things I'm talking about,

00:06:12   there are probably equivalents in iOS,

00:06:14   or they may have started in iOS or whatever.

00:06:18   Maybe it's just because I have more background.

00:06:20   But it seems like a lot of these things,

00:06:22   I can get more technical info about the details of OS X.

00:06:27   Even just from Apple, just from going to the WLDC sessions,

00:06:29   you're much more likely to see some in-depth end users,

00:06:33   and even developers really, don't need

00:06:35   to know this information.

00:06:36   but they're gonna talk about it in a presentation

00:06:38   than you would for iOS.

00:06:39   And I guess the people who jailbreak iOS

00:06:41   and are in there with debuggers and poking and prodding it

00:06:43   could do a similar type of thing,

00:06:44   but Apple is not offering up that information

00:06:47   as readily as they have historically offered it up

00:06:50   for the Mac.

00:06:50   And then there's all the dev tools and stuff,

00:06:52   which is common to all platforms,

00:06:53   and that could be in an iOS review

00:06:55   just as easily as an OS X review.

00:06:56   But yeah, I like the weird things

00:07:00   and nooks and crannies of OS X,

00:07:01   and OS X has evolved more.

00:07:03   Like it's older, and so if you look back,

00:07:06   Even though iOS 7 is this big radical break, if you compare iOS 1 through 6 and then 7,

00:07:12   that's just like the first quarter of OS X's history.

00:07:17   The way it's changed and how just look and feel, interface, technology is underpinning

00:07:22   everything, the time before iOS existed compared to the time after, OS X has been through a

00:07:27   lot whereas iOS is still spring chicken.

00:07:30   It's maybe not as interesting from a historical perspective quite yet.

00:07:36   One thing that stuck out to me, and part of it

00:07:38   is the fact that this is the 10th one,

00:07:40   and that makes the math a lot easier,

00:07:44   is you can divide and just sort of figure, well,

00:07:48   over the lifetime of Mac OS--

00:07:51   I still call it Mac OS X. I even write it sometimes.

00:07:54   Yeah, I know.

00:07:55   It's hard.

00:07:55   I try to train myself out of it.

00:07:58   It's like one of those ways around just curmudgeonly.

00:08:01   Because to me, putting the Mac in Mac OS X,

00:08:04   It just jumps out at you and there's no confusion.

00:08:07   Whereas with iOS and OS 10, it's all about that OS.

00:08:13   And to me, it's one of those, then I could get confused.

00:08:16   And I might write the wrong one.

00:08:18   Or if I'm reading somebody else's,

00:08:19   I'll read it the wrong way if I'm reading too fast.

00:08:22   Yeah, and everyone read so much into dropping of the Mac.

00:08:24   And I still don't quite understand the thinking

00:08:27   behind it, other than just the basic, well, it's

00:08:29   one fewer word.

00:08:30   It's simplification, right?

00:08:32   But it's like, oh, they can drop the Mac,

00:08:33   Because then you could have OS X on non Mac platforms and fast forward like four years and it's like no, not so much.

00:08:39   Yeah, and I was one of those ones and God bless my readers, but it was like one of those ones where it was

00:08:46   I mean like 30 or 40 emails over the next day or two from people who all

00:08:51   Suggesting the same thing that it meant that that Apple was gonna license

00:08:55   Yeah, the OS to you know, probably not everybody but maybe like just for example just Dell

00:09:02   and let Dell make...

00:09:04   Yeah, I mean like who knows, you know, who knows how these decisions come to pass, but you know,

00:09:08   there was that brief moment where they were trying to say OS X was like the common platform

00:09:12   beneath iOS and Mac OS X or iPhone OS and Mac OS X. It was like three days when that was the case and

00:09:17   then they backpedaled and then later, you know, took off the Mac again. Like,

00:09:21   you know, it could be

00:09:24   preparing for possibly doing that or running in this OS and something that's not a Mac because it's like a

00:09:29   TV thing or like who knows what you know, but they just

00:09:32   It seems to have a mind of its own

00:09:35   It's like well we're doing this name change and if if the name change was really going to be linked to hey

00:09:40   We're licensing it you think it would be announced at the same time

00:09:42   It's not like you you change the name first and then announce the licensing later

00:09:46   So the name change like has a life of its own and it's one of those things where Apple

00:09:50   Apple doesn't explain like remember when you're trying to ask Apple about like, you know

00:09:53   What's the deal with like the new iPad when you know and they were just they you know, it was like talking to her

00:09:58   I'm not gonna get political. Anyway, it was like talking points.

00:10:01   Yeah.

00:10:01   They all said the same thing. They're like, you know, we have a speech every time you ask it,

00:10:06   we just like to call it the new iPad. Like they were reading from an index card.

00:10:08   Right. But it's in a way that it's utterly a

00:10:11   nonpartisan. It has nothing to do with left or right, liberal, conservative, Republican, Democrat.

00:10:17   All of them are the same. Where when you get one of them in public, especially like on a

00:10:23   campaign for an election, you just cannot knock them off the talking points.

00:10:28   Even if you have a question that none of the talking points answer, they'll just pick one

00:10:33   of them at random and it ends up like a non sequitur.

00:10:36   Well, Apple is as disciplined or even more disciplined than political campaigns at the

00:10:42   top of their game.

00:10:43   Because some political campaigns, good reporters can trip them up or whatever, but the very

00:10:49   best, most efficient political machines cannot be tripped up. And they speak with one voice,

00:10:53   and they stick to their talking points, and they execute their strategy, and it's like

00:10:57   talking to a brick wall. I mean, who cares? Like, the name of a product's not a big deal,

00:11:00   but Apple employs that strategy to great effect. So if they don't want to explain why they

00:11:05   change names, they're not going to. And in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really

00:11:09   matter, so we're just left to scratch our heads and go, oh, well, that's what it's called

00:11:13   now.

00:11:14   little background on that and it's not definitive and I can't you know it's

00:11:19   it's off the record and again it's not definitive so I could be wrong but

00:11:23   somebody was telling me that they had the name iPad air in mind all along or

00:11:32   at least you know like this product was on the roadmap for a while and they knew

00:11:35   they wanted to call it iPad air but that wanting to call this year's new full

00:11:42   size iPad the air when they could make it this size and this weight was why they stopped

00:11:47   putting the numbers after the iPad three and four because they felt like if they did two

00:11:54   more iPads with numbers it would create it it would make the iPad air when it come out

00:12:00   if it wasn't called the five make it seem like it I think they overthink stuff like

00:12:04   this that it would you know that once you get to four it would have to be five to be

00:12:09   better than the four, but they didn't want to call it that. They wanted to call it the

00:12:12   air. So they just stopped, you know, they just had two models, but they didn't. But

00:12:16   everybody, I just call them, everybody else, like we call them the iPad 3 and iPad 4.

00:12:20   Yeah, and like that, that strategy, whether they thought it was a good idea or not, like

00:12:25   all they did was trade a future scenario in which people expect a number that's one bigger

00:12:29   than the previous number for a more present scenario. Because people had all this, all

00:12:33   the same stuff happened when it was the new iPad. And so all that stuff that happened,

00:12:38   what they were trying to avoid. All they did was shift it forward in time, which is fine,

00:12:41   like whatever. You know, I think it's reasonable to take the numbers off the thing. But if

00:12:45   it was their strategy to like, we don't want that burden on top of the Air. We want that

00:12:49   burden now on top of the iPad 3. Well, you got what you wanted.

00:12:52   Well, and the flip side of that too is it makes me think that they're going to stick

00:12:57   with the numbers for the iPhone. If they thought about that and they didn't want to have these

00:13:02   numbers and not, you know, eventually go away for the iPad, then why would they, why are

00:13:06   they still, you know, numbering the iPhones. So…

00:13:08   **Matt Stauffer** Well, you know, wait for them to drop the number on the iPhone and then, you know,

00:13:12   two years later, the iPhone Air that's going to be a thickness of a credit card is going to come out.

00:13:15   **Ezra Kleinman** Exactly. That's a good point. That might be.

00:13:18   I also think in general that Apple, not that they're not good at naming things,

00:13:25   but they're not good at explaining why they name things. I think even to themselves, that they just,

00:13:30   you know, even without Steve Jobs there, even as it goes on, it's sort of, you know,

00:13:35   They just pick names that feel right and whether there's any

00:13:38   Sense to it or not

00:13:41   They don't care or names that feel wrong like MacBook. Yeah, Marco's still hung up on that one

00:13:46   No, I mean, it's us, you know, you get used to anything you get used to anything

00:13:49   But like you just you have to judge a name like when you first see it and say is this name have any awkward?

00:13:55   Aspect of it that's weird. And what am I trading that awkwardness for my train that awkwardness for better brand recognition for the word

00:14:01   Mac, well, you just took it out of the OS name, so I'm not sure what the grand strategy is there.

00:14:05   iPod and iPad relying on this different vowel sound and very similar looking letters to

00:14:12   distinguish, it's not the greatest, but it worked out in the end. iPod Touch, people call it the

00:14:19   iTouch, it's kind of a mess. In the end, the names don't matter that much, but certainly I would say

00:14:25   Naming is not consistent vision of naming is not Apple strong suit, but you know, you have to pick a weakness

00:14:32   It's fine where we are recording this on Halloween evening

00:14:35   I was out trick-or-treating with the boy and his friends earlier this evening and one of the kids dad's

00:14:43   Who knows what I do asked me he says he wants to get a new 13-inch

00:14:48   Notebook or laptop or whatever and wanted to know which one you should get the air book or the MacBook Pro

00:14:55   Pro. I don't think I've ever heard that one before.

00:14:58   Yeah, I mean, if you're not in-- don't follow this stuff.

00:15:01   The names all start to sound the same.

00:15:02   They all got "I" in the front of them.

00:15:04   There's some sort of-- "Air" is like in the mix.

00:15:06   And sometimes there's Mac, and there's a pad and pods.

00:15:09   And people don't know.

00:15:10   People don't care.

00:15:12   I think I had a good answer for him.

00:15:14   I think that's become a very easy decision to make,

00:15:17   just a little bit off the topic here.

00:15:20   But to choose which MacBook to buy.

00:15:23   I think here's how I think it is

00:15:25   I think if you spend a lot of time running off the battery you should get the air and if you spend most of your

00:15:30   Time with the AC cord plugged in and you should spend the extra couple hundred bucks and get the pro

00:15:36   I think the screen is still a factor in my like it depends if you think people care

00:15:41   But I think even regular people know what a bad viewing angle is like they don't they can't articulate it

00:15:46   But like, you know, it's it's the case that a lot of people still can't tell you

00:15:51   retina, non-retina, but everybody can tell the difference between IPS and TN panels.

00:15:58   This screen doesn't quite look as good, because if you're at a slightly off angle, that's

00:16:02   the one remaining weakness of the Air, even though I still recommend it.

00:16:05   It was so much easier to recommend it when none of the machines were retina.

00:16:09   Like there was that honeymoon period where, which laptop Mac should I get?

00:16:13   The default answer was 13-inch Air.

00:16:16   And then you could just waffle from there.

00:16:18   it's like 13 inch air, but have you seen the screen on the 13 inch retina? Even before the revisions,

00:16:23   you know, like that's those things look so nice. And if you're gonna be spending all day looking

00:16:27   at the actual laptop screen, especially now the 13 inch, you know, non-air is getting so thin,

00:16:34   it's it's a harder decision. Yeah, it's pretty comparable to like, I don't know, maybe I'm a

00:16:39   little off, but I think it's getting pretty close to the weight of the original 13 inch

00:16:44   It's not quite there, but like I said in an ATP couple of weeks ago, if you just imagine

00:16:49   the original error, but it didn't taper.

00:16:51   It's very similar.

00:16:54   Just stuff with extra battery.

00:16:57   Like a bazillion times faster and better battery life and everything else so much better about

00:17:02   it.

00:17:03   Let me take a time out to tell everybody about our first sponsor.

00:17:08   I think this might be a record for the soonest I've had the forethought to do a sponsor break.

00:17:13   So our good friends at Transporter, aka File Transporter, founded by a bunch of guys who

00:17:22   used to work at Drobo.

00:17:23   Now they're reunited.

00:17:25   The Drobo people have acquired them.

00:17:29   It's a Drobo product.

00:17:33   What is File Transporter?

00:17:34   It's like your own personal Dropbox.

00:17:38   It's a piece of hardware.

00:17:39   buy it and you plug it in to your home network or your office or you could buy

00:17:45   two you could put one in your home one in your office sign them in with the

00:17:47   same account and what does it do it works like Dropbox it just syncs the any

00:17:52   files you put on it between each one if you have more than one and all the Macs

00:17:57   you sign into on the same account what's the advantage of it well it's your

00:18:02   device you control it you know where it is and there is no cloud component the

00:18:07   The only part that's online that these guys do is the magic to sort of poke holes through

00:18:14   your router, your home network, your office network.

00:18:18   They don't do any storage though.

00:18:19   All they do is connect sort of a peer-to-peer basis just to sort of get you through the

00:18:24   – what do you call it?

00:18:28   The firewall?

00:18:29   Whatever you want to call it, the router.

00:18:31   Am I saying this right, John?

00:18:33   John: Firewall, you got it.

00:18:35   They don't store your stuff on any kind of cloud-based system.

00:18:41   And I can't imagine. I say this every time these guys come on as a sponsor.

00:18:44   I really can't imagine the...

00:18:48   I mean it's a terrible complicated and

00:18:51   political situation with the US government and the NSA and the spying and

00:18:56   stuff like that that's going on.

00:18:58   With leaks coming every single week. I can't even imagine

00:19:02   the forethought that went into them launching this product about a year ago

00:19:05   and then to have this next year of news break out like this.

00:19:09   In terms of trying to convince people why you might want to take

00:19:13   control and ownership of your distributed

00:19:17   ubiquitous everywhere you go file storage.

00:19:21   They have an app for the iPhone so you can

00:19:24   use that you can connect to your stuff from wherever you are even on your phone.

00:19:28   It's a great product, really is. Works

00:19:32   very simply, very quietly.

00:19:34   It's just a completely unobtrusive piece of hardware.

00:19:37   That is the one thing I always,

00:19:39   when I first heard about it months ago,

00:19:41   my first thought was, well, do I really want to hook up?

00:19:44   I'm lazy, I really am.

00:19:46   And the older I get, the lazier I get.

00:19:47   Do I really wanna hook up some kind of complicated,

00:19:50   you know, piece of storage hardware?

00:19:54   This thing is adorably a little cute.

00:19:56   I mean, it's, you know, fits in the palm of your hand.

00:19:59   Very simple to set up.

00:20:01   Quiet and all the good things you could say about it

00:20:04   Where do you go to find out more easy you go

00:20:11   File transporter comm slash talk ta lk nice short code that way

00:20:20   They will know that you came from the show

00:20:23   It's cheap

00:20:26   You can do things. What's the starting cost for this thing John? You know, cuz you they sponsor your show - isn't like

00:20:32   $2.99 I

00:20:35   Think have the new one that doesn't have the hard drive into that

00:20:38   I think is even cheaper

00:20:39   But they do sell an empty one that you can supply your own hard drive for but yeah, it's something like that

00:20:43   Here's one you could get one look at this your own unlimited private cloud. Here it is. It's brand new. It's a new device

00:20:49   $99, that's the little puck shape one. That's the little puck shaped one. Yeah, I'm get started for $99

00:20:54   I should also add, here's another thing, no fees.

00:20:57   You don't pay fees, you don't pay any kind of monthly thing.

00:20:59   You buy them, it's like Apple.

00:21:02   It's like you give them money for hardware

00:21:04   and then it just runs for free after that.

00:21:07   No monthly fees, you just buy the thing.

00:21:09   And really, it's great.

00:21:11   If you're a nerd, you wanna buy the one

00:21:12   that doesn't come with a hard drive,

00:21:13   you put your own hard drive in it.

00:21:15   Otherwise, you can get one from them

00:21:16   that's all set up, ready to go right out of the box.

00:21:18   So check 'em out, filetransporter.com/talk.

00:21:23   Yeah, this new puck-shaped one looks adorable.

00:21:27   Reminds me of the old Griffin thing.

00:21:29   Remember that Griffin--

00:21:30   It was a big knob that you turned or something?

00:21:32   Yeah, it was this hardware thing.

00:21:36   You'd plug it in USB.

00:21:38   Or was it so old that it was ADB?

00:21:40   I think it was USB.

00:21:43   And it was just a dial.

00:21:45   And there was software where you could

00:21:47   make it control your volume.

00:21:50   If you wanted instead, you could have it scroll whatever app

00:21:53   you were in.

00:21:54   It would be nice if you could play Kaboom with it.

00:21:58   I'm sure you could.

00:21:59   You must have been able to.

00:22:00   It seems like it would be criminal not to let you play Kaboom.

00:22:04   That was my favorite, one of my favorite games for 2600.

00:22:08   It was a very good game.

00:22:10   There was a whole, I don't even know what you want to call it.

00:22:13   There was a genre of classic video games which was going side to side catching things.

00:22:19   Yeah.

00:22:20   Like this is it could be just be childhood, you know, Rosie rose colored childhood memory

00:22:25   But I would love for someone to hook one of those things up to find like a TV with an RF

00:22:29   Interface and everything when I hook it up with period correct hardware and see what is the latency between?

00:22:35   when you turn that little analog knob and when you know the image moves on the screen because it just felt like

00:22:41   You were directly connected wired up to that little stack of things trying to catch your stuff as they fall

00:22:47   Maybe the lag was horrendous and I just don't remember because I was so young but

00:22:50   In my memory, that was the most responsive "I move part of my body and an image moves

00:22:56   on a screen" interface that I can remember.

00:22:59   Atari called it the "paddle," right?

00:23:01   That's what they called them, the "that controller."

00:23:06   Maybe.

00:23:07   That was the only device, well, maybe there's newer ones that come.

00:23:10   But that was one of the weird things about Atari is it came with two sets of controllers.

00:23:13   You had a set of joysticks and a set of paddles, because it was for two totally different games,

00:23:18   types of games. My favorite of the genre was Circus Atari. Do you remember that one?

00:23:24   **Matt Stauffer** It does not ring a bell.

00:23:26   **Justin Jackson** Ooh, that was a really good one. It was the same type thing. It was you were a

00:23:30   clown on a teeter totter and it just went side to side and then you had a partner who would jump on

00:23:37   a trampoline to start and you had to catch him and you had to catch him on the upside of the

00:23:43   teeter totter and then he would shoot you up in the air and then you'd be the, you know,

00:23:47   You'd just go side to side and there were balloons to pop.

00:23:51   It was Breakout, really.

00:23:54   But instead of, you know, I don't know what the premise in Breakout was, you were clowns

00:23:58   popping balloons.

00:23:59   AG Yeah, my one friend with the 2600 must not have had that game because I never had

00:24:04   one.

00:24:05   DAVE It was good and it didn't look good.

00:24:06   It sounded so stupid because it didn't have any spaceships, didn't have any guns.

00:24:10   I mean, you were, you know, the box showed you that you were a clown.

00:24:15   So it was one of those ones where we got it like when we got our family 2600 for Christmas,

00:24:19   but my sister and I never played it.

00:24:21   And then one day I was home sick, like I had the flu or something, missed school.

00:24:26   And I was sick of all...

00:24:27   I was sick, I was like ill, but I was also tired, bored of all the games I had.

00:24:34   And then I realized there was this circus Atari game that I'd never really played.

00:24:37   And I put it in and I had like seven continuous hours, just played it nonstop.

00:24:43   it up. It's a good one. But it would be – it was absolutely dependent upon the paddle.

00:24:49   It wouldn't make any sense with the joystick.

00:24:52   Yeah.

00:24:53   I think the latency was pretty good on those things. I seem to recall that you could get

00:24:58   – it was really – you could get very precise. I don't think – because I don't think

00:25:01   there was much – again, it could just be the haze of 20, 30 – I guess 30 years, jeez,

00:25:10   memories. But it seems, you know, it was very simple, you know, there really wasn't much

00:25:16   going on. There wasn't much processing going on. I mean, it was just electrical impulses

00:25:20   from the paddle into the thing and then just shooting them up on the TV.

00:25:24   AG: There's a great book on this that I have not read but I keep meaning to called "Racing

00:25:28   the Beam."

00:25:29   AG Yeah. I think I got a copy of that book, like a courtesy copy, as the writer of "Daring

00:25:36   And it's like I never read it, but it's somewhere on my list of books

00:25:40   I actually want to read. Yeah, and I think the title is a reference to the practice of trying to do computations

00:25:46   You know the electron beam is scanning left to right left to right doing a rows at a time of the television in your CRT

00:25:52   And it was you know there wasn't enough memory to do anything for an entire screen image

00:25:55   So what you would do is do some calculations and the beam would start to draw them

00:25:58   And then you would ditch what you did and start doing new

00:26:01   Calculations before the beam got to the row that you were figuring out what it was going to look like right?

00:26:05   I think that's what it's a reference to.

00:26:07   Again, not having read the book, I'm surmising based on.

00:26:10   But that's what makes me think it must have been pretty darn

00:26:13   responsive, is that you just had so little to work with

00:26:15   and so little to do that how could you take time

00:26:17   to do anything?

00:26:18   Because everything just had to respond immediately.

00:26:24   There was no big, long, hard thinking

00:26:26   about what you were going to do.

00:26:28   You didn't have time.

00:26:28   You just had to figure out what the dots were going to be

00:26:30   and throw them up on the screen and react to input immediately.

00:26:34   one of my friends from college... I don't think he listens... I don't know if he listens to this show, but if he's out there...

00:26:38   hello Andrew Ross, a good friend from college, but I know he reads the site.

00:26:42   And he

00:26:46   corrected me a couple weeks ago. Somehow Pac-Man came up on Daring Fireball

00:26:51   and I called the bad guys "ghosts."

00:26:54   But they weren't ghosts, they were monsters. That was the...

00:26:58   you know, what were the bad guys in Pac-Man according to the official game?

00:27:02   They were

00:27:03   monsters but Atari called them ghosts for the pac-man version or the Atari

00:27:08   version of pac-man because they couldn't figure out a way to animate all for them

00:27:15   at the same time and so they they would draw each of them only 1/4 at the time

00:27:20   and so they looked flickery and transparent because they were only

00:27:23   drawing one at a time of the four ghosts or the four monsters so they just they

00:27:28   just instead of calling it a bug they just said rename them ghosts and called

00:27:32   it a feature.

00:27:33   Well, they do look kind of like ghosts.

00:27:35   They do look kind of like something

00:27:36   with a sheet over its head with two eye holes cut

00:27:39   and a ragged bottom to the sheet.

00:27:42   So it fit quite well.

00:27:43   But the monstrous thing, it just sounds

00:27:45   like a bad translation of whatever the word is

00:27:49   in Japan for these things.

00:27:50   And like, well, that roughly means monster, whatever.

00:27:52   It's a video game.

00:27:53   Who cares?

00:27:54   It probably came out because of your-- what do you call it?

00:27:57   Talk?

00:27:57   Didn't you do that at Webstock?

00:27:59   No, you know what?

00:28:00   I think, well, maybe it was.

00:28:02   Maybe it was.

00:28:03   Maybe it was my web-- maybe that's what it was.

00:28:05   Because I don't even think I linked to that talk

00:28:07   down there on Fireball, though.

00:28:08   But maybe he just saw it because somebody else--

00:28:10   Yeah, I don't know how I saw it, but I came up on a Twitter feed

00:28:13   or whatever.

00:28:13   Maybe just the web stock account and someone retweeted it

00:28:15   or whatever.

00:28:16   Yeah.

00:28:16   And I do think, though, that you're right, though,

00:28:18   and the reason that I remember them as ghosts is because they

00:28:20   do.

00:28:21   They have that classic sheet over a head look.

00:28:26   Like from a Charlie Brown special.

00:28:27   Yeah.

00:28:29   I didn't see any kids dressed like that today.

00:28:31   You don't see that.

00:28:32   Me neither.

00:28:33   You see any good costumes on the kids?

00:28:36   Eh, that's all right.

00:28:38   I mean, we don't get a lot of kids here.

00:28:39   We get like maybe three quarters of a bowl of candy's worth of kids.

00:28:44   It's mostly like younger kids with parents.

00:28:47   Some of them are cute, but nothing super impressive.

00:28:50   Also this year, not a lot of the kids who are not really dressed up like the kids who

00:28:54   are a little bit too old to be trick or treating and didn't even put in the effort to put on

00:28:57   of thing, but just want free candy.

00:29:01   When we do trick or treating, usually my wife goes out

00:29:03   with the kids, and I am the person who mans the house,

00:29:06   so we can hand out candy and be a good neighbor or whatever.

00:29:11   And let me tell you, you can learn not everything

00:29:14   you need to know, but you can learn a hell of a lot

00:29:16   in about three seconds about every kid that

00:29:18   comes to your door based on how they deal with the candy

00:29:21   situation.

00:29:22   Because some people, when you come to their door,

00:29:25   they let you know immediately how it's going to be.

00:29:27   I just simply extend the bowl and do not offer any advice about how many candies you should

00:29:33   take or anything like that.

00:29:35   Some kids ask, "How many can we take?"

00:29:37   Some kids don't ask and just take one.

00:29:39   Some kids don't ask and take two hands full.

00:29:43   Some kids try to take one and say, "Thank you," but then rotate around their friend

00:29:46   and come on the other side and take another one and say, "Thank you."

00:29:49   And you could just like, "I should be taking these kids' names down."

00:29:52   "Uh-huh.

00:29:53   All right.

00:29:54   I got your number.

00:29:55   Yep.

00:29:56   Okay.

00:29:57   It is a 30-second personality test for young children, how they deal with that bowl of

00:30:03   candy.

00:30:04   John: Jonas would certainly be a take one.

00:30:08   He's very…

00:30:09   John: Without asking?

00:30:10   Like, how many do we have?

00:30:12   John; If you extended it, the bowl, then he would reach in and very selectively pick whatever,

00:30:19   take a look and pick one thing that he thought looked best.

00:30:22   John; The people asking, like…

00:30:24   It's also about the way they ask.

00:30:25   Some people are asking is they just want to make sure they're not doing anything bad,

00:30:29   but they're also asking because they're hoping the answer is not one.

00:30:32   And I give different answers to different kids, because I'm running an experiment here.

00:30:36   Depending on how the kids look or whatever, sometimes they say one, sometimes they say

00:30:40   two.

00:30:41   Really, towards the end of the night, I want the bowl to be depleted so I don't have leftover

00:30:44   candy, so I give higher numbers.

00:30:45   But then occasionally, the kids will come and I'll see a couple of greedy people in

00:30:48   there and one of their friends will ask and I'll say, "One, actually."

00:30:51   You know, like not like, I'm just like, one,

00:30:54   I'm trying not to interfere with the experiment,

00:30:55   but fascinating, I should film it.

00:30:59   - You should tell them, take what you feel you deserve.

00:31:01   - No, that's let your conscience be your guide

00:31:03   is what I almost say to these kids,

00:31:05   but I feel like they'll, you know,

00:31:06   I don't wanna be the weird house.

00:31:08   - Take what you've earned.

00:31:12   - Right.

00:31:13   - What kind of candy do you give out?

00:31:15   - My wife buys it, it's just, you know,

00:31:17   little miniatures, you know, I responded to Marco

00:31:21   and Tiff's tweet about their candy and which candy do you think would go first. And I read

00:31:26   it late so I didn't get the answer, but I knew what the answer would be.

00:31:28   I didn't see it. What were the options? I didn't see the tweet.

00:31:30   It was like Whoppers, Dots, like little Jolly Rancher looking things, and Butterfingers,

00:31:39   I think. And maybe they weren't Jolly Ranchers. They might have been gum. But the kids, I've

00:31:44   learned this from doing Halloween, they love the crappiest candy, whatever it is, just like sugar,

00:31:50   Just like nerds or you know like dots for the first one to go there just terrible

00:31:54   You know completely sugar-candy my memory from childhood is that you always go for the chocolate first even when we were little so you

00:32:01   crazy

00:32:01   Snickers bar versus anything else like you're not gonna who wants a jolly ranch or who wants a piece of gum who wants nerds who?

00:32:07   Wants dots everyone wanted chocolate but kids these days they want Sour Patch kids they want dots

00:32:13   They want skittles like and we and what we get is you know Snickers bars Milky Way bars Three Musketeers

00:32:19   Butter fingers and also, you know Skittles and some other type of candy and the terrible crap sugar candy always goes first

00:32:26   And it boggles my mind. Yeah, I think I've told this story before I think back on the old show with

00:32:32   Dan but the the gold standard

00:32:35   For me and on my neighborhood growing up as a kid was always

00:32:40   Full size pack of

00:32:43   Reese's peanut butter cups. They hold two packs, right? You'd get two whole peanut butter cups or

00:32:50   some other similar full-size milk chocolate covered candy bar. A full Snickers or a full

00:32:57   Hershey bar. A lot of people are doing that. Like, it's a trend. I mean, and Andy Inako just posted

00:33:04   that that's what he was doing. But like the full-size ones, that would start to get spendy

00:33:07   with the amount of kids that we get. And honestly, but I don't think their parents would probably

00:33:12   give us the stink eye of giving like this two-year-old kid a Snickers bar the size of his

00:33:16   forearm. It's not, you know, I know what it's like to have kids. At least with the small ones, you can

00:33:21   say, "Okay, you can have one candy," and they eat one and they're not wired all night. You eat one of

00:33:25   those Snickers bars. That's too much. I remember there was this Dnavich family in my neighborhood

00:33:30   growing up, and Mrs. Dnavich was always really into Halloween. She was just one of those moms who

00:33:35   just loved it. They had a pretty cool house, and it had like a second floor porch. I don't know what

00:33:41   what you call it, like a balcony/porch on the second floor.

00:33:44   And they always, every year, they hung up like a witch.

00:33:47   Like, she probably-- it was one of those tricks of perspective

00:33:51   where I'm sure in real life she wasn't actually

00:33:54   a five-foot tall mannequin.

00:33:57   She's probably more like four feet tall or something.

00:33:59   But from the street, it looked like a full-sized witch

00:34:01   on a broom hanging up there and some kind of lighting

00:34:06   to light her up and it looked great.

00:34:08   She always gave out full-size candy bars.

00:34:10   Because she knew me, because I was around the corner,

00:34:16   she would let me take two.

00:34:17   And CNN, I would be like, really?

00:34:19   I would think, is this a trick?

00:34:21   I'm going to get in trouble when I accept the second one, right?

00:34:25   This can't be true.

00:34:26   Second one's filled with razor blades, though.

00:34:28   [LAUGHTER]

00:34:32   Is that still a thing?

00:34:33   Does that ever--

00:34:33   I don't think kids know about that these days.

00:34:35   These days, when the kids come, we

00:34:37   have a separate bowl for peanut free.

00:34:38   That's the level things are in our neighborhood.

00:34:42   And the kids come and they ask for it.

00:34:43   They say, do you have any peanut free?

00:34:45   And I say, actually, I do.

00:34:46   Here you go.

00:34:48   Ready for it.

00:34:49   Yeah, the razor blade thing.

00:34:51   That's got to be one of those things that never actually

00:34:53   happened.

00:34:54   No, I don't think it ever did.

00:34:55   But just the thought of it was just-- it was enough.

00:34:59   You just turn it over in your mind as a little kid.

00:35:01   It's like, I love candy.

00:35:02   I love Halloween.

00:35:03   But biting into a piece of candy and finding a straight razor

00:35:06   cutting into the roof of my mouth would not be good.

00:35:09   It didn't stop you.

00:35:10   You'd still get the candy and you'd delete it.

00:35:11   And I remember the other one too was--

00:35:15   I don't know if it was because somebody figured it out

00:35:18   that, hey, it doesn't even make that-- it would actually

00:35:19   be kind of hard to put a razor blade in a candy bar

00:35:22   and then seal it back up.

00:35:24   The other one was that there were rumors that some people

00:35:27   put straight pins in them.

00:35:29   Yeah, it's easier to sneak in there.

00:35:32   The thing was they'd give you an apple,

00:35:33   and the apple would have the tiny, thin, straight razor in it.

00:35:36   And that, you could sneak in there.

00:35:37   And that's just like, you know how you bite into an apple.

00:35:39   You don't want a razor blade being involved there.

00:35:41   But yeah, that's all just things to scare kids as far as--

00:35:44   I've never read an actual documented case of it

00:35:46   really happening, which is pretty amazing considering

00:35:48   how prevalent that myth was and how much copycat people do

00:35:52   crazy things like that.

00:35:53   Exactly.

00:35:54   Nobody would ever think to do it until it

00:35:56   became a prevalent meme.

00:35:59   And then all sorts of weirdos would think, well,

00:36:01   maybe I should do that.

00:36:02   I guess maybe weirdos have trouble attracting children to their houses on Halloween.

00:36:06   Because there really are things.

00:36:08   I don't really think it was ever a thing where that was an actual problem, but I know that

00:36:12   there were things where you can take your Halloween candy to the emergency room and

00:36:16   get them X-rayed.

00:36:17   I mean, that's like an actual thing in some places.

00:36:20   And it's like, imagine if you actually suffered some kind of accident or injury on Halloween

00:36:26   and you're waiting—you always wait too long in the emergency room.

00:36:30   And then you gotta sit there and wait for kids to get their damn Snickers X-rayed?

00:36:34   I got their candy irradiated.

00:36:36   Right.

00:36:37   Yeah, they do stuff like that that just makes parents feel better.

00:36:41   Yeah.

00:36:42   I guess they could offer that as a service at the airport, too.

00:36:44   Like, take one of the TSA lines and let kids walk through with their candy and see if it

00:36:48   sets it off.

00:36:49   No, then you'll just see the candy, like, naked without the wrapper, but you won't actually

00:36:52   see what's inside it.

00:36:56   see all the gummy bears genitalia.

00:37:05   Smooth as Ken doll.

00:37:07   Mavericks.

00:37:08   Have you gotten used to the name?

00:37:13   Yeah, I'm fine with it.

00:37:15   I mean, in the grand scheme of things, it's weird and awkward, but it's fine.

00:37:21   It's not like MacBook.

00:37:22   It's not like Wii.

00:37:23   It's not embarrassing.

00:37:24   It's just eccentric, which is fine.

00:37:27   Right. And apparently it did start. I read that the story behind the name of the location was that,

00:37:34   you know, at some point in the 60s, I guess it didn't even have a name until then when, you know,

00:37:38   like surfing culture got to be big. And then a bunch of, you know, hippie surfers in the 60s

00:37:44   found this great beach. And one of them had a dog named Maverick. And that somehow that's,

00:37:49   and who knows if it's apocryphal or not, but that it came from that the beach was Maverick's,

00:37:54   because that's where the dog Maverick hung out while his owner surfed.

00:37:58   So you were joining a long, distinguished line of people who have been telling me the origin of the

00:38:04   name by reciting to me or summarizing to me the very thing that I linked in the paragraph where

00:38:11   I discussed the name. And I know everyone doesn't follow every link, but it's like,

00:38:14   I linked that in the review. I read it on the iPad. There's too many links.

00:38:17   Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I will stay to be here. But the point is, yeah, lots of people are like,

00:38:20   you may not know this, but Mavericks is actually blah, blah, blah. So, you know, a lot of people

00:38:24   were just simply reciting or copying and pasting the actual page I link, which is like the Wikipedia

00:38:29   page about the thing. And the second strain of corrections to this is people saying,

00:38:33   "It's not actually plural. You see, it's possessive because..." And again, this is mentioned in the

00:38:36   Wikipedia. It's not, you know, it's possessive, blah, blah, blah. One person had the presence

00:38:40   of mind to link to the other thing, which was my second go-to that I was going to link to this,

00:38:44   but I didn't want to have too many links. See? I just linked to the Wikipedia page. Page explaining

00:38:49   that when they do place names and they're possessive, they tend to drop the apostrophes.

00:38:52   Like, that has historical precedent, you know, Saint Mary's or whatever. It's, you know,

00:38:56   S-T period Mary's, but without the apostrophe S. So yeah, no, I totally understand where the name

00:39:02   comes from. I understand what it is. But, you know, if you don't know the backstory and you see

00:39:07   "Mavericks," it reads as plural. And most people don't know or care or understand the backstory,

00:39:12   and that's why it's awkwardly plural. Is it really plural? Is it, you know, it's either awkwardly

00:39:15   plural or awkwardly possessive, but you know, whatever you decide. But there's a certain

00:39:19   awkwardness to it. But, you know, maverick is a word that people know and like, and it's

00:39:23   distinctive, and hey, it's not a cat, right? So, you know, we're off in a new direction,

00:39:27   and there are plenty of places in California to go to next.

00:39:30   Does McDonald's still have the apostrophe? I'm looking it up.

00:39:34   Friendly's dropped it. Remember that?

00:39:37   Yeah.

00:39:37   Or, for now, Friendly's dropped—it used to be just "friendly," like, singular.

00:39:40   Yeah, or was that—did they switch to—

00:39:44   They added the apostrophe S because everybody called it "Friendlies."

00:39:48   And so it used to be singular, "Friendly."

00:39:50   And for the longest time, we had one near where

00:39:53   I grew up that had a sign, like a big fancy sign on a brick building that

00:39:56   didn't have the apostrophe S on it.

00:39:58   And I would tell people, you know the place is actually named Friendly, right?

00:40:01   And they'd be like, no.

00:40:01   I'm like, come look at the sign.

00:40:02   And they would swear that sign says Friendly until you get up there

00:40:05   and look at it, see?

00:40:05   No apostrophe S. And then it's like, oh, it must have fallen off.

00:40:08   Nope.

00:40:08   Didn't fall off.

00:40:09   But they gave in.

00:40:10   We had two in my vague hometown area growing up.

00:40:15   And one of them was a Friendly's and one was a Friendly.

00:40:18   And I noticed stuff like that.

00:40:21   And I always wondered-- and this is before you could look stuff up on the internet.

00:40:24   I always wondered whether perhaps they were two rival brands.

00:40:28   [LAUGHTER]

00:40:28   Yeah, like McDowell's.

00:40:30   Right.

00:40:30   That some jerk started Friendly after Friendly's started because they didn't

00:40:38   register the trademark on the non-possessive or something like that.

00:40:41   You can get a sundae and a Yankees cup.

00:40:42   Because all I could think was otherwise it doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't you enforce

00:40:46   consistency across all of your franchises?

00:40:48   Well, they did slowly. Do you have one of those still or did you remember getting those? It was

00:40:52   like the upside-down plastic baseball cap.

00:40:54   Yeah.

00:40:55   You can get a sundae in it. I still think I have a Yankees version of that somewhere.

00:40:58   I don't know if I got one at Friendly or where I got that, but I do remember having a little,

00:41:04   Yeah, like a little plastic batting helmet, roughly the size of a scoop of ice cream.

00:41:11   It's a pretty good deal considering the crap that you get with like Happy Meals and stuff now.

00:41:15   They just gave you that as the thing they served your ice cream in, and you take it home,

00:41:18   and you got a nice little--

00:41:19   Yeah, something you might actually want to keep.

00:41:21   And I'm assuming it was licensed from Major League Baseball and was the real logo on it.

00:41:24   Yeah, I'm sure. Had to be. McDonald's still has the apostrophe.

00:41:28   Although I wonder, did you have like Phillies hats or something? I didn't really think about it,

00:41:33   about doing we had Yankees things I don't know if I don't know how I got the

00:41:37   one I had a Yankees one I don't know if there's back in the old days when the

00:41:40   only one they just assumed the entire country recognized the Yankees supremacy

00:41:45   and just about the whole country gets Yankees hats right I don't know if I

00:41:48   don't know how that I don't know or I you know for all I know I don't remember

00:41:51   getting it I just remember having and for all I know somebody some relative of

00:41:55   mine got it somewhere else and you know let's get one of those for John keep it

00:41:59   form. I don't know. But I remember having the little hat.

00:42:04   I keep trailing off Mavericks and going off into baseball.

00:42:11   Yeah. And friendlies.

00:42:12   I really thought this would be the show where there wasn't any baseball. The episode where

00:42:15   there's no baseball.

00:42:16   Well, hey, how could it not be like this could have been preempted by game seven?

00:42:19   Yeah, it could have been. I had a bad feeling about the Cardinals.

00:42:25   And watch any of it. I'm not paying attention to it at all, but my Twitter feed is still

00:42:28   So I feel like I'm like a contact contact high from baseball talk.

00:42:33   I was talking to my dad.

00:42:36   My dad's a big baseball fan, and we were talking the other day.

00:42:39   And I guess he does not like-- I've said this on the show many times-- he does not like

00:42:42   the American League.

00:42:43   He doesn't like the designated hitter role.

00:42:45   So he just, you know, he watches sports, and he likes baseball, but he doesn't watch a

00:42:49   lot of-- it won't just-- like if it's two American League teams playing on TV on ESPN

00:42:53   or something, he won't watch.

00:42:56   So he was really kind of unaware of the whole beard situation

00:42:59   with the Red Sox until--

00:43:00   I mean, he'd heard about it.

00:43:02   But then he was watching the World Series.

00:43:03   And he was like--

00:43:04   he said that the Red Sox looked like the type of guys.

00:43:08   If you saw a couple of them in the bus station,

00:43:10   you'd just walk the other way.

00:43:13   Yeah, I knew about the beard thing, but only like,

00:43:15   you know, academically, like I understood the concept.

00:43:18   And then I'd caught a piece of a game.

00:43:19   And I'm like, all right, this is out of control.

00:43:22   Someone had a good tweet.

00:43:23   I forget who it was.

00:43:24   It might have actually been Dan Poger.

00:43:26   No, maybe it was a comedian saying, after the series,

00:43:28   the Red Sox are going to go back to their normal jobs

00:43:31   of driving a carriage for the Amish.

00:43:35   Like, they were just some serious beard,

00:43:37   like Jebediah caliber beards poking out of these people

00:43:41   here.

00:43:43   They just look like the type of people who don't bathe.

00:43:47   Yeah.

00:43:47   They don't.

00:43:48   It's not a good look on a lot of them.

00:43:50   Being looking a little scruffy is good,

00:43:52   But once it goes out into Amish/homeless person,

00:43:57   that's just too much.

00:43:59   It doesn't look classy.

00:44:02   No, it does not.

00:44:03   I don't know enough about baseball to know.

00:44:08   I see you making the comments about the weird alternate

00:44:10   uniforms and stuff like that.

00:44:12   But all sports teams go through some awkward phase

00:44:15   with their outfits.

00:44:16   But if you had to pick a team that aesthetically

00:44:18   is the apple of baseball, it would

00:44:19   be the Yankees with the pinstripes.

00:44:21   It's like it's just classy and simple and straightforward.

00:44:24   And even their logo is--

00:44:26   it's not like a weird teal-looking thing.

00:44:29   Red Sox have a certain class to them.

00:44:31   But when you have someone with a big giant beard

00:44:33   and the bright saturated red, it starts

00:44:35   to look a little bit Ronald McDonald.

00:44:38   It did accentuate the un-Yankeyness of the Red Sox.

00:44:45   Yankees, in fact, famously have always

00:44:48   had a grooming code.

00:44:53   In the '70s and maybe even early '80s,

00:44:56   when men's fashion was such that the hairstyles were longer,

00:45:01   the Yankees would occasionally get dinged by George Steinbrenner

00:45:03   like, hey, you got to go get a haircut.

00:45:05   So they have a Don Mattingly exception?

00:45:07   Mattingly got in trouble for his hair at one point

00:45:11   later in his career.

00:45:13   And it just became a weird thing.

00:45:16   It was just sort of like an 80s mullet type look.

00:45:18   And it wasn't really long hair.

00:45:19   But I don't know.

00:45:20   It was like Steinbrenner got a bee in his bonnet over it.

00:45:25   But Mattingly was already like the team captain

00:45:28   and a perennial all-star.

00:45:29   And I just remember as a kid thinking,

00:45:31   boy, what a silly thing for the Yankees

00:45:34   to be worried about because they stunk at the time.

00:45:37   And also the facial hair.

00:45:39   It's like working at Disney or something like that

00:45:42   when you're on the Yankees.

00:45:43   You can't have--

00:45:44   I can't scare the kids.

00:45:45   Matt only had the big handlebar, right?

00:45:47   Right.

00:45:47   You could have a mustache.

00:45:48   Couldn't have a beard, though.

00:45:49   I think the most you can get away with is--

00:45:53   I know that there's some pitchers, a lot of pitchers,

00:45:56   who don't like to shave before they pitch.

00:45:58   So you can go like three or four days without shaving.

00:46:01   You don't have to shave every day, but you can't grow a beard.

00:46:05   I guess catchers can be Quasimodo.

00:46:07   Doesn't matter what they look like.

00:46:08   Yeah, nobody ever sees their face.

00:46:11   Nobody ever sees their face.

00:46:12   No one ever sees their face or their prehensile tails.

00:46:15   Yeah.

00:46:17   Are you sad to see the big cat names go?

00:46:20   No, because I think they were out.

00:46:21   Like, I would have liked to see a lynx in there somewhere.

00:46:23   I think that's the only one that they left on the floor.

00:46:26   Because I think that's kind of a cool name.

00:46:28   It's got an X in it.

00:46:29   It's interesting.

00:46:30   But that would have to be kind of like a middle name.

00:46:31   And once you go lion, where can you go?

00:46:33   I mean, even mountain lion's a cop out.

00:46:34   Like, yeah, I guess it's like lion, but different.

00:46:37   But mountain lion is-- you know, mountain lion

00:46:39   is nothing compared to lion.

00:46:40   It's not lightning bug and lightning, but it's close.

00:46:42   Yeah, and snow leopard was sort of it worked on two levels where it got them an extra year without coming up with a new cat

00:46:50   And it really did fit that that release in terms of it famously being the look

00:46:56   Quote-unquote no new features release and snow leopards look cool. Yeah, like I mean a lot of it, you know

00:47:02   You get a pic cool links is probably don't look that cool, but the name is cool

00:47:06   So that's probably the only one they do and it's kind of a shame

00:47:09   They never got to like when they did cheetah and puma they were not into the putting the cat branding out in your face

00:47:14   Yeah

00:47:15   Like yeah

00:47:16   There was just behind the scenes and then they burned those two names and like and cheetah is great as like the ultimate inside joke

00:47:21   But the people who are putting out that oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. What are we gonna start with? Yeah, we're gonna call us when cheetah

00:47:25   I know I even want yeah, I tend to think I don't even know if that's the origin if it was it wasn't like hey

00:47:32   Let's give them big cat names. It was oh my god. This thing is so slow. Let's call it cheetah

00:47:38   Internally and then somehow it's stuck

00:47:40   Yeah

00:47:40   And then as the wine names which at least they had the good sense the marketing department had the good sense not to try to

00:47:45   Go with the wine names, which they continue to have

00:47:47   Do that. I don't know about this. Yeah, they all the OS releases. I think all of them have have you know a

00:47:53   Super secret code name, especially now that the when the code names became, you know

00:47:57   It started with Jaguar where they started to become the marketing names as well

00:48:00   They have wine names and I get I'm assuming it's Bertrand

00:48:03   I mean, you know gonna go with that but like I even up to line

00:48:06   I think lion was like Barolo or something. I don't drink wine, so I don't know a lot of wine name

00:48:10   So what Pino was it was maybe?

00:48:12   10 3 or something

00:48:15   I don't remember the name some some Apple person could send you an email and tell you what all the wine names were and are

00:48:19   But if you if you like

00:48:21   Gripped through the various shell scripts and other readable things occasionally you can find a comment or a reference to a name of a wine

00:48:28   And that's what they're talking about

00:48:30   Do we I forget if I talked about this and if I did I would think it might have been when you were on the show

00:48:36   Also could have been in person like at WWDC. I don't know but if I'm repeating myself forgive me

00:48:41   I don't know. I forget what it's been on this show three months ago

00:48:44   But the other names that were went unused

00:48:49   But couldn't for obvious reasons. I was talking to somebody at Apple about him was you know

00:48:55   How could they if they wanted to how could they have gotten another cat?

00:48:58   Cougar

00:49:01   Which they didn't want to use for the connotation and pop culture of you know, older women who chase young men

00:49:07   But cougar is a pretty cool, you know until recently I think they could have used that I think that that usage of cougar is

00:49:16   kind of a

00:49:18   Modern thing and I think they could have gotten over that

00:49:21   I don't I don't know that the that the snickering over calling a version cougar would have lasted any longer than the snickering over

00:49:29   iPad yeah, you know it would have blown over and it was perfectly serviceable name right you know what uh what is it?

00:49:34   It's you know what are they gonna call the big one the maxi pad?

00:49:37   You know I think Cougars if you know I mean there was John Cougar Mellencamp, and it's pretty cool cat

00:49:43   What was the other one I

00:49:48   Can't remember there was one more that they could also ocelot

00:49:52   ocelot is

00:49:55   You know is one. I think I

00:49:58   could swear I've had this conversation before I just can't remember if it was on the show or not Jonas used to play and

00:50:03   When he was the seven and eight year old Little League teams

00:50:07   In the league he played here in Philly all the teams had big cat names

00:50:13   And I think that there were the ten or eleven teams in the league

00:50:17   So it was a little bit more than you know, the maybe there are twelve teams

00:50:21   So it was more than the OS releases and there there wasn't ocelots

00:50:26   Which I think is probably the worst I mean

00:50:28   It's you know most of the kids couldn't even spell that and the other cool cat that was one of his team names

00:50:34   And they I know that Apple considered it. I think if they've gone one more. This is the one they would have used was

00:50:39   Wildcats

00:50:42   Yeah, I mean like a lot of these names as you know any biologist points out

00:50:46   They're like different names for the same actual animal and then known by different names and wildcat

00:50:50   I'm assuming is you know similar type of things what the hell's a wildcat right right?

00:50:54   You know but like the wildcat is a one that definitely has you have to tie that to something

00:50:59   There has to be something wild about it like it right. You know Mavericks is like a little bit maverick

00:51:04   It's different or whatever, but not it's nothing like wildcat like wildcat could be like when you do

00:51:09   You know iOS six to seven type transition. Well. It's wildcat. It's wild you know whatever

00:51:13   But you can't just you can't just slap that on something like if they had called this one

00:51:17   Wildcat all the reviews would be like this isn't very wild

00:51:21   Even now like a lot of them were like it's even mine like it's not particularly maverick

00:51:26   Like I made that point in the end of it. It's like, you know, kind of like cheetah was the slowest maverick is

00:51:30   Not really, you know boldly asserting a you know new direction. It's kind of not maverick. I

00:51:37   I'm gonna I don't want to spoil it. I'm gonna assume I think you know, hopefully I think that you know

00:51:43   Anybody out there is listening

00:51:45   If you've had plenty of time to read

00:51:48   John's review so I mean I don't want to spoil it, but at the end you you said if it was if os10 were

00:51:54   Anthropomorphized you you cast as as os 10 woody allen

00:51:59   And you said ios would be the suave coolness of brad pitt this totally see brad pitt as ios

00:52:06   Anthropomorphized I wouldn't say woody allen now well

00:52:11   I say not not the os, but this particular release of the os because it's kind of like oh well

00:52:16   "Well, you know, I don't know about this whole wood thing.

00:52:19   We're gonna get the wood out there, but, you know, just I think everything is okay.

00:52:22   If we'll leave at the Felton Game Center..."

00:52:24   This is my Woody Allen impression.

00:52:25   That's pretty good.

00:52:26   I'm really enjoying that.

00:52:27   But, like, yeah, it's like Woody Allen is kind of cool in some of his movies, you know?

00:52:32   But he also can get easily flustered and seems uncertain, right?

00:52:36   And so this thing is like it's kind of got a little bit of, you know, Woody Allen is

00:52:42   smart and resourceful and introspective.

00:52:45   that was the subhead of this thing of like time for introspection.

00:52:47   It seems like OS X is like looking at stuff in the mirror and go,

00:52:50   "What am I going to do with my life?"

00:52:51   And it's wiped off a lot of the crap that was added to all those applications,

00:52:54   making them look like books and look like the iOS apps.

00:52:57   But that's all it's done to this point is wipe the stuff off.

00:52:59   Like it just smear, smear, smear, leather gone from calendar.

00:53:02   But it's not like, "Oh, let me just radically rethink all these applications."

00:53:06   And some of them it didn't even get time to clean up.

00:53:08   So it knows what it doesn't want to be,

00:53:11   but doesn't even have the time to rewind it.

00:53:13   And so that's why I'm looking for something that's like, you know, Woody Allen is—people

00:53:18   have different impressions of Woody Allen, so that's difficult to say. Most people would not

00:53:22   think of the Woody Allen—maybe if you're a neurotic New Yorker, you will look up to Woody Allen in

00:53:28   some degree, but other people might look at Woody Allen as just entirely like the sort of nervous,

00:53:33   sweating, fidgeting type of thing. But there are admirable things about Woody Allen, but he also

00:53:37   has that angle of uncertainty and always questioning himself. Yeah. I guess there is this

00:53:42   sort of introspection is a good way to put it, where that's really where most of the

00:53:49   changes in Mavericks are. I mean, it's very obvious. You don't even have to read a 24,000

00:53:56   word review to figure out that it doesn't really look different than before, other than,

00:54:01   as you said, in the case of specific apps that have been de-s-... Let's use the S-word,

00:54:08   skew skew amorphized is the f word before stalled before stalled right but

00:54:16   what did they end up looking like they've really all those apps you know

00:54:19   contacts and etc really just look like generic apps you know it it's just a

00:54:28   very straightforward right out of app kit well and I'm not even that because

00:54:33   if you had made them straight with app kit they would not be like they are what

00:54:36   What they are is like underneath that--

00:54:39   it's like makeup.

00:54:39   If you wipe off all that makeup underneath there,

00:54:41   it's like just the thing that was always under there.

00:54:43   Because it's strangely structured,

00:54:45   like contacts where they had the three panes out of the books

00:54:48   or whatever.

00:54:48   Yeah, you're right.

00:54:49   Once you get rid of the book art,

00:54:51   it's like, would I ever make this window

00:54:52   if I didn't know that previously it had started

00:54:54   as a book type thing?

00:54:55   And they made the three panes more or less

00:54:57   independently resizable so you can get it

00:54:58   into arrangements that would never

00:55:00   correspond to a book that always had

00:55:01   to be split down the middle.

00:55:02   But if you just started from scratch

00:55:04   and said, make me a contacts window,

00:55:05   you would never make a window like that.

00:55:06   It only makes sense if you look at, oh, I see it used to be covered with a book, you

00:55:10   know?

00:55:11   Or the notes application, oh, I see this used to be yellow-lined paper, and then this was

00:55:16   a sidebar.

00:55:17   Now it's just kind of like this beige thing.

00:55:18   You have to know where it came from for the current Windows to make sense.

00:55:21   Otherwise, they look kind of small and squinty and strange and use weird fonts and don't

00:55:24   look like Mac apps at all.

00:55:26   They look like iOS apps that have been scoured down.

00:55:30   That's more or less what they are.

00:55:31   And again, I assume it's because they didn't have time to do anything else.

00:55:33   They said well, we're sure as hell not not shipping that leather stuff anymore. That was the easiest one

00:55:38   Okay, just replace it with a gray header and throw a little bit of you know

00:55:42   Thin Helvetica in there for like the month name or whatever, but they're they're not entirely rethought. It's just like

00:55:47   You know backpedaling

00:55:50   Yeah notes in particular

00:55:52   I think really kind of sticks out cuz like you can like double click a note to open it into its own window

00:55:56   But it it doesn't have a standard

00:55:59   window title bar at all, it's like a

00:56:02   It used to be like a little yellow sticky note.

00:56:04   And now that they're not that yellow anymore,

00:56:06   now it's just like a weird window.

00:56:07   It doesn't make it-- doesn't read that well.

00:56:10   And like, reminders kept whatever

00:56:13   that crazy black stuff is.

00:56:14   It's like, well, they didn't have time to redo reminders.

00:56:16   They didn't have time to get to redo Game Centers.

00:56:18   There's too much graphics.

00:56:19   And all those people are too busy working on iOS 7 now,

00:56:21   and whatever.

00:56:24   It's sort of like-- if you want to go

00:56:28   with the anthropomorphized thing,

00:56:30   It's sort of like somebody who's sobered up after a long bender.

00:56:39   And Game Center is like the face tattoo?

00:56:42   Yeah, sort of.

00:56:43   Or maybe a face tattoo is a little tough, or a little out there.

00:56:49   But yeah.

00:56:49   I was going for the hangover, which I hadn't seen.

00:56:51   But it's the lampshade on the head.

00:56:53   And it's like, well, you woke up and you're just like, geez,

00:57:00   I'm just going to I'm just going to put on a t-shirt

00:57:02   Call it dressed

00:57:05   And but it did the introspection though I did you know so yeah the look and feel is obviously it's really just

00:57:14   Taking out those over-the-top

00:57:17   skeuomorphic resources and that's really the extent of

00:57:20   Significant changes to the way it looks I mean like you know they change the doc again, too

00:57:26   I mean like they always screw with the doc

00:57:28   The doc on the side looks different.

00:57:30   Like, you know.

00:57:30   There are so few user interface elements

00:57:33   that are guaranteed to be visible in OS X.

00:57:35   The doc is-- it's like the doc, the menu bar, and the window

00:57:38   title bar.

00:57:39   So like, that's the look of the OS.

00:57:40   Because there's not that much other surface area.

00:57:42   So any time they change the doc, it's like, well,

00:57:44   that's the one thing that you know

00:57:45   is going to be in people's faces.

00:57:47   And you know.

00:57:49   So most of the changes, you know,

00:57:51   how do you write a 24,000 word review

00:57:53   of an OS that didn't really change

00:57:55   that much the way it looks?

00:57:57   It's, you know, the stuff that's new is under the hood.

00:58:01   And it's really sort of a deep--

00:58:03   it is sort of introspective.

00:58:05   It's like, why are we doing this?

00:58:07   Why have we spent all this time over the decades letting

00:58:11   background processes consume as much CPU time as they could?

00:58:15   What is the purpose of the OS?

00:58:17   What is the job of the OS?

00:58:18   Job used to be like give every process all the resources it

00:58:22   needs, manage access to the hardware,

00:58:23   and coordinate them all, and have them just maximize it.

00:58:26   And now it's like the parent that was too permissive.

00:58:30   And it realizes, what is the purpose of being a parent?

00:58:32   Is it just to give your kid everything that they want?

00:58:34   Maybe not.

00:58:34   Like iOS, again, if you can't talk about the Mac without talking about iOS,

00:58:38   iOS showed-- because you had to, you had no choice.

00:58:41   Like you're on a phone, you can't have all that crap in the background.

00:58:44   And there's that story that I don't remember the source of this.

00:58:48   Maybe you do, like Steve Jobs, seeing the iPad.

00:58:50   I'm the source of the story.

00:58:52   I wanted to tell you this.

00:58:53   This is my story.

00:58:55   Well, I wasn't there, but I spoke to someone who was there.

00:59:00   It was after the original iPad was unveiled.

00:59:07   So it's 2010, and it had been a secret project.

00:59:10   Everybody was something, something.

00:59:11   Apple's doing a tablet.

00:59:13   But like any Apple project, only the people who worked on the iPad knew about the iPad

00:59:19   before it came out.

00:59:20   I mean, the iOS team knew more or less, but that was it.

00:59:23   And then after it came out, then everybody at Apple knew what it was, and then he could

00:59:27   do it.

00:59:28   And there was a meeting with the hardware team for the MacBook hardware team.

00:59:31   And it was, "What are we going to do for the next MacBook?"

00:59:33   And Jobs had been on his first medical leave – well, not first, but the first toward

00:59:42   the latter years of his life.

00:59:44   In 2009, he'd been gone a lot of the time.

00:59:46   And it was when he came back, it was that first – that one – it was the medical

00:59:51   that started with the Kim canceling the Macworld keynote and this etc and was

00:59:56   when he came back in the summer and it was like what is he gonna do with maybe

01:00:00   less time that he can spend in and he spent the rest of that year doing the

01:00:04   original iPad but it really devoted himself to it I mean he knew the iPad

01:00:08   in and out and so his next meeting with the the MacBook people this must have

01:00:12   been probably like March of 2010 it kid they came in her and they expect it was

01:00:19   like budgeted it like three hours. It was like going to be a three hour meeting where

01:00:22   Steve Jobs is going to lay out the line of what are we going to do with the MacBook.

01:00:25   He came in carrying an iPad and there were all the existing MacBooks around the table.

01:00:32   And he said, "Here, look at this. This is asleep." And then he touched the button on

01:00:36   the iPad and it instantly turned on. He goes, "Now it's awake." And he goes, "I'm going

01:00:40   to do it again." He turned it off. He says, "Now it's asleep. Touch the button. Now it's

01:00:44   awake. He goes, Why can't I do that on this and pointed to a MacBook and then he just left the room.

01:00:50   Yeah, and it's the same thing that we all felt like when we, you know, the iPhone to begin with

01:00:58   is like, that's why it seems so magical. You use it and you're like, why is this thing that I know

01:01:03   is like one, especially the original iPhone one 10,000th as powerful as the Mac? Why does it feel

01:01:09   so? Why does it feel so fast? Why does it feel so responsive? Why does the magnet is kind of unfair

01:01:14   to do that to the MacBook hardware team,

01:01:16   if that's who he was talking to, because it's not just

01:01:19   a hardware solution.

01:01:20   And Mavericks is finally the software side of that coming.

01:01:25   All these things that iOS does to be

01:01:30   that responsive and such crappy hardware,

01:01:32   finally getting the Mac to get some of that religion.

01:01:35   Do less stuff.

01:01:35   Only do what the user asks.

01:01:38   Do what they ask immediately.

01:01:39   Everything else gets screwed.

01:01:42   And you can't do that entirely on the Mac,

01:01:44   because the part of the Mac is useless,

01:01:45   be able to run all this stuff in the background.

01:01:46   But if you spend any time with the command line tools

01:01:49   like fs_usage, or in the old days, sc_usage,

01:01:53   and these other command line tools that show you

01:01:54   what's going on in your system, fs_usage in particular,

01:01:56   I'm always looking at it, because I'm always trying

01:01:58   to figure out what the hell is grinding my disk to death.

01:02:00   So much crap, just run this on your machine now.

01:02:03   fs_usage, it should be in your path if you've got the,

01:02:06   maybe it's part of the dev tools.

01:02:07   Look at how many processes are just beating your disk

01:02:10   to hell, and you're like, what are these things doing?

01:02:12   Does something really need to be checking

01:02:13   this preference file 30 times a second.

01:02:17   Sometimes I've written bug reports for programs

01:02:19   that say, your program is looking at this--

01:02:23   is statting this file literally hundreds of times a second.

01:02:27   That seems excessive.

01:02:28   Don't do that.

01:02:29   And Mavericks is, what is the role of the OS

01:02:32   and the introspection angle?

01:02:33   Maybe the role of the OS is to say,

01:02:35   I don't care how fast you want to check that file.

01:02:37   If you're not the process that the user is interacting with,

01:02:40   but you're some faceless demon and something else is going on,

01:02:43   and more important things are happening,

01:02:44   you're gonna be throttled.

01:02:46   I'm gonna give you less CPU time.

01:02:47   And there's always been process priority

01:02:49   and stuff like that,

01:02:51   and Mac OS X has always prioritized

01:02:53   the quote-unquote interactive tasks

01:02:54   over the non-interactive ones,

01:02:55   but Mavericks is really cranking it up,

01:02:58   not just giving them less time,

01:02:59   but also trying to have fewer of those things happening.

01:03:01   And it's kind of weird.

01:03:02   It's happening at the same time

01:03:04   that iOS 7 is finally saying,

01:03:05   "Okay, a couple of applications can run in the background,"

01:03:08   kind of like you do on the Mac.

01:03:10   iOS used to be just this totalitarian regime

01:03:12   where nobody gets to run only one process at once.

01:03:15   And now, with the A7 and stuff, they finally

01:03:17   have enough CPU power to say, OK, we can open up

01:03:19   the policy a little bit.

01:03:21   Apps can run in the background, subject to some restrictions.

01:03:24   And the Mac is coming from the other direction,

01:03:26   trying to lock everything down.

01:03:27   But it's one of those things where

01:03:29   I feel like you had to go all the way to the iOS, the iPhone,

01:03:33   and iPad to sort of open your eyes to these questions.

01:03:38   The questions just didn't occur prior to that.

01:03:41   Why would you let an application that the user can't even see,

01:03:48   why are we letting it spend as much CPU time

01:03:50   as it wants to update its UI?

01:03:53   You know, it doesn't make any sense.

01:03:55   Whereas iOS, that's like when you think,

01:03:57   when you sit there and think, well, why does the iPad

01:04:01   get such amazing battery life?

01:04:03   And one of the things is, even now that it has multitasking

01:04:07   and you can keep multiple apps in memory to some degree,

01:04:11   And you get a real win out of that when you switch.

01:04:14   If you're switching from mail to Safari

01:04:18   to your Twitter client, and all three of them

01:04:20   can stay in open in RAM,

01:04:22   they may not be doing stuff in the background,

01:04:25   but then when you switch to them,

01:04:26   it's right there where you left off

01:04:28   and there's no wait at all.

01:04:30   But on the other hand, it's not doing anything

01:04:33   in the background that you don't need to happen.

01:04:36   And all of a sudden, I think that Apple is clearly asking,

01:04:39   why can't the Mac be more like that?

01:04:40   So here's the thing about that Steve Jobs story.

01:04:44   At that time, and to this day, but at that time as well,

01:04:48   Max had an amazing reputation for being

01:04:51   the laptop that wakes from sleep really, really fast.

01:04:54   Like they were the gold standard of the industry.

01:04:56   And even among PC users, they'd see how fast-- this

01:04:59   is before that meeting they had this reputation.

01:05:01   And it's exactly-- it's totally Steve Jobs' move

01:05:04   to come into the room.

01:05:05   And the one thing he picks on is the one thing

01:05:06   that MacBooks are universally recognized

01:05:09   as being the best in the industry at.

01:05:10   And that's a thing that he says is crap.

01:05:12   And why is it crap?

01:05:13   Because Apple itself had made a device that shows,

01:05:15   don't be satisfied merely by being the laptop

01:05:18   that wakes from sleep the fastest.

01:05:19   There's a whole other realm of possibility

01:05:21   over here on this little thing.

01:05:23   - Right, don't just compare yourself to Windows PCs.

01:05:26   - Right, and the thing about the iPad,

01:05:28   I remember back in the day,

01:05:29   and I even find myself slipping into this,

01:05:31   I think I even did in the review,

01:05:32   like the iPad was so amazing

01:05:33   'cause it was like 10 hour battery life,

01:05:35   and that's when laptops were getting

01:05:36   like three and four hour battery lives.

01:05:38   And you look at it and you're like,

01:05:39   how the hell does this thing have a 10-hour battery life

01:05:43   when the battery for a MacBook Pro or whatever

01:05:47   weighs more than the entire iPad screen at all?

01:05:51   We have this huge battery, and we get three hours.

01:05:53   And they have a battery that's so skinny that we barely

01:05:55   need to shove it in the back of this thing.

01:05:56   And that continued to happen as the battery for the iPad

01:05:58   got skinnier and skinnier.

01:06:00   It was like the Mac laptops had bigger batteries.

01:06:03   And now finally with Mavericks, even before that with Haswell,

01:06:07   Like, finally, Mac laptops are getting the benefit

01:06:11   of having just massively more battery than the iPad.

01:06:13   Because the iPad now has this little tiny sliver.

01:06:15   iPad Air has a battery.

01:06:16   It's probably like a sheet of paper inside there.

01:06:19   There's no room in there.

01:06:20   The battery is so tiny compared to the battery

01:06:22   in a 15-inch MacBook Pro, which is just seven big, chunky cells.

01:06:27   They're still small.

01:06:29   And a MacBook Air running Mavericks,

01:06:31   we were getting like 14, 15 hours of battery life.

01:06:34   So now suddenly, the world makes sense again.

01:06:37   the thing with the bigger battery does get more battery life, whereas before it was like

01:06:39   the thing with the bigger battery gets a third of the battery life of the iPad.

01:06:43   Right. Why in the world does the Mac, even the 11-inch MacBook Air, which clearly has

01:06:49   the smallest battery of any MacBook, because it's the smallest anything in a MacBook, but

01:06:55   if it weighs two and a half times as much as an iPad, how could it not get better battery

01:07:01   life? Or at least match it or something.

01:07:03   But it was you know and I think it's only really with this year's models that it really jumped past it and like you said

01:07:08   With Mavericks, it's clearly past it

01:07:11   I mean, it's yeah as well as the big part of it in terms of like, you know the hardware

01:07:15   That was the big win, you know getting the CPU putting more stuff on the chip, you know

01:07:19   Like we're not it's not an a7 system on a chip yet

01:07:21   But like we're there they're going towards each other and then the software side of it is the other half of that

01:07:26   Okay, we have the CPU and chipset that's able to not use a lot of power and it's not doing anything now

01:07:31   it's the OS's job to make sure we're not doing anything when we're not doing anything.

01:07:35   Well, you ran your own tests for your review where you, you know, and it's, you know,

01:07:42   like a real-world test. It's not some kind of abstract benchmark. It was loading web pages,

01:07:47   waiting a couple seconds, you know, maybe to simulate actually, you know, looking at the

01:07:52   web page and then closing it and loading more. Yeah, I got a newfound, not a newfound,

01:07:58   I always had respect for an antagonist people with lots of benchmarks but doing benchmarks like this like synthetic ones are so much nicer because they're

01:08:04   Repeatable but I'm doing a real benchmark using real websites, right?

01:08:08   Right and real websites vary from day to day right or you know you and you installed the flash plug-in

01:08:14   Yeah, I'm like a real-world usage. But then if if if your advertisements that are flash-based

01:08:20   Consume CPU it matters which ads load

01:08:23   yeah, and then it's like I would have to because I'm trying to I was trying to compare Mavericks to mountain lion and

01:08:28   And I'd only had one machine to test on.

01:08:31   So I'd run the Mavericks one.

01:08:33   I'd reboot for the battery to recharge and run the next one.

01:08:36   And I was getting such variability

01:08:38   on the Mountain Lion ones.

01:08:39   The Mavericks ones were pretty consistent,

01:08:41   but the Mountain Lion ones just varied like crazy.

01:08:43   And so the numbers in the review are direct numbers from runs.

01:08:49   But we had many, many runs.

01:08:50   And I was like, should I average them?

01:08:51   Should I not?

01:08:52   I just kind of took an actual run

01:08:54   that was kind of in the middle.

01:08:55   But they vary.

01:08:56   It's like, what is the weather on the internet today

01:08:58   in terms of flash ad crap?

01:09:00   And if it's a bad flash ad weather day on the internet,

01:09:02   the machine that willingly runs flash ads

01:09:05   is going to get slaughtered.

01:09:06   And Mavericks is like, I don't care what the flash ad weather

01:09:08   is like.

01:09:09   I'll load the flash thing, but I'm not

01:09:10   going to let it auto play.

01:09:11   Like, I intentionally pick pages that occasionally

01:09:14   had auto playing ads, like YouTube and--

01:09:16   I think The Verge has them occasionally as well.

01:09:18   Like, I was trying to pick sites that tech nerds might go to.

01:09:22   The test itself, I think it was gentle,

01:09:24   like it was a light usage test, because it was like,

01:09:27   go to web pages, change to a tab, go to a text edit document,

01:09:30   add a line of text, let the autosave thing work,

01:09:32   hide the window, show the window, bring this tab

01:09:34   to the front, hide that tab.

01:09:36   But it's really light usage, not doing anything strange

01:09:39   at all.

01:09:39   So in that respect, it's not representative of you

01:09:41   actually using and hammering on your computer.

01:09:43   But I just wanted to see what kind of percentage increase

01:09:46   could we get.

01:09:46   And I was trying to demo AppNap, making sure

01:09:49   that AppNap was a factor.

01:09:51   Like, I was stopping for like five seconds, at least,

01:09:53   changing tabs to simulate reading something for five seconds, and that's enough time for

01:09:57   AppNap to kick in.

01:09:58   And Flash was there to demonstrate the amazing benefit you get by not auto-playing Flash

01:10:03   ads, even though Flash was installed.

01:10:07   If people read it, they should look at the mountain lion numbers, because if you're not

01:10:10   currently getting 12 or 13 hours out of mountain lion, you're not going to get 15 hours out

01:10:15   of Mavericks.

01:10:16   It's like the percentage increase is probably representative, but the absolute value is

01:10:21   It depends on the age of your battery and all that stuff.

01:10:23   But it does seem true, though.

01:10:26   I mean, it really just seems bottom line true.

01:10:28   And it's one of those things that seems--

01:10:31   it sounds too good to be true, and everybody naturally sort of just

01:10:34   thinks, let's see.

01:10:36   When Craig Federighi first ran through the features back at WWDC of Mavericks

01:10:45   and said that we can get with these things that we're doing,

01:10:48   AppNap and the coalesced network.

01:10:54   Timers.

01:10:55   Yeah, and I/O, if you can even just coalesce hitting

01:11:00   the hard drive, it adds up, and you're

01:11:03   going to get 20%, 30% more battery life.

01:11:08   Just by upgrading to the new OS, that sounds too good to be

01:11:11   true.

01:11:12   And I asked Apple if they had any kind of number

01:11:14   that they were going to throw out there

01:11:16   as a marketing type thing.

01:11:18   I really didn't expect anything, and to their credit,

01:11:19   they didn't give one, because this is the thing

01:11:21   about battery life.

01:11:22   The whole game here is you're not,

01:11:25   you can't get blood from a stone.

01:11:26   The battery has the energy that it has.

01:11:27   The CPU has the energy it has, and I was trying to emphasize

01:11:30   that with the early on graph showing, pulled right from WWC.

01:11:33   Look at this CPU.

01:11:34   It uses nothing when you're not using it,

01:11:36   but it uses 25 watts when you're hammering it,

01:11:39   and it's a 54 watt hour battery.

01:11:41   Do the math.

01:11:42   How many hours do you get when you're using 25 watts

01:11:44   and your battery's 54 watt?

01:11:45   You don't get 12, that's for sure.

01:11:48   That's the thing about battery usage, and that's why I talked about the application

01:11:51   so much, is that you get this new OS, and you go out and you put it on your machine,

01:11:55   and you're like, "Wow, now I'm going to get real battery life increase."

01:11:58   There's nothing the OS can do if you're running a bunch of crap that is just, you know, hamming

01:12:02   your CPU and your GPU constantly.

01:12:04   Like, the OS can't stop that.

01:12:05   If you have some third-party thing that's in your menu bar, drawing 60 frames a second

01:12:09   constantly, that is going to suck your power like a vampire.

01:12:11   Like, Mavericks' whole trick is it doesn't magically make more battery, it makes less

01:12:15   stuff go on.

01:12:16   But if you force stuff to go on, you're going to-- like,

01:12:18   you could burn your--

01:12:19   through your battery just as fast

01:12:21   from average because you can't amount

01:12:22   to money if you just have a bad application.

01:12:23   Just one bad application.

01:12:24   So there's the-- what do you call it?

01:12:26   The wall of shame?

01:12:29   In the--

01:12:30   Energy shaming, yeah.

01:12:31   It's a great idea.

01:12:32   And I think it's one of my favorite parts of your review

01:12:35   because I noticed the feature.

01:12:38   And I thought, oh, that's interesting.

01:12:39   And it shows-- and for anybody who doesn't know,

01:12:42   it's like when you go to the battery meter in the menu bar.

01:12:45   And do you even-- is that on desktops?

01:12:47   How does that show up on desktops?

01:12:49   Yeah, I went and looked for it recently.

01:12:51   I'm like, I wish that showed up on desktops.

01:12:52   Because even though I don't have battery power,

01:12:54   I want to know what the hell is stealing my CPU cycle--

01:12:56   Right.

01:12:56   --and doing my disk and doing all this crap.

01:12:58   Right.

01:12:58   So it's in the battery meter.

01:13:00   So I guess you don't see it on desktops.

01:13:02   But you go up to the little battery thing in the menu bar,

01:13:04   and you pull it down.

01:13:05   And in addition to telling you the stuff it used to tell you,

01:13:08   like whether you show the percentage or not,

01:13:11   or just show the icon, it now has a list of apps

01:13:15   using significant energy.

01:13:17   And so it's all posited in the terms of energy.

01:13:21   But like you said, it also means which apps

01:13:24   are slowing my system down.

01:13:25   If there's an app using 30% of your CPU,

01:13:28   even if you're plugged into AC, if you're

01:13:30   using a Mac Pro or an iMac or something,

01:13:33   you'd still like to know about that app because if you

01:13:36   can make it stop doing that, your machine will be faster.

01:13:38   And it's brutal because, first of all, it shows the icon.

01:13:41   So your face is out there.

01:13:45   And the battery menu is like, people

01:13:46   know about the battery menu.

01:13:48   People just know about it.

01:13:50   They like to have it in the menu bar.

01:13:52   They don't just look a little icon.

01:13:53   It is very likely to be found.

01:13:55   Because you can get all the same information

01:13:56   by just going to activity monitor,

01:13:57   but nobody knows about activity monitor.

01:13:58   Normally users don't hang out there.

01:14:00   So if you look in the menu, it's putting

01:14:02   in front of more or less regular users' faces, potentially

01:14:06   your application icon.

01:14:08   And like I said in the review, if I was a developer,

01:14:11   I would be kind of annoyed by this,

01:14:12   'cause you just know the support email you're gonna get.

01:14:14   'Cause like, oh, your app is using significant,

01:14:16   it's like, it's a game, you're playing the game.

01:14:18   Of course it's gonna be using, like, what the hell?

01:14:20   It's not magic, and your app is gonna show up,

01:14:22   and you're just gonna have to field request after request

01:14:24   about like, yes, I understand, people are gonna complain.

01:14:27   But it's the only way to do it to get,

01:14:30   to shame the people who really need to be shamed.

01:14:32   Your stupid little dinky thing that I'm not even using

01:14:34   is showing up on this menu, what the hell is the deal?

01:14:37   And when you select it from the menu,

01:14:39   it goes to activity monitor with the application highlighted,

01:14:42   like as in kill me now.

01:14:44   Like this is a quit button right up in the,

01:14:45   like it's like volunteering to say,

01:14:48   this here's the guilty application,

01:14:49   you wanna kill it off?

01:14:50   Just click this big red stop sign button in the toolbar

01:14:53   and we'll kill it.

01:14:54   - So the day that Mavericks came out,

01:14:57   my friend James Duncan Davidson, the photographer,

01:15:02   he just emailed me with a, oh boy,

01:15:06   screenshot of his app shame list, which listed Photoshop.

01:15:14   And he said, this is when no documents open.

01:15:17   Yeah.

01:15:17   And you know, and now there's the thing where it's like, if you really--

01:15:24   if Photoshop is--

01:15:26   who knows what the hell it's doing.

01:15:27   But if it's doing something where it's using significant energy while you

01:15:31   and don't even have a document open.

01:15:34   But your professional work is such that you need Photoshop.

01:15:39   Well, this is what you're getting at, though.

01:15:41   You're not--

01:15:43   Mavericks--

01:15:44   Your computer is there to be used for something.

01:15:46   Right, but Mavericks isn't going to magically make that less

01:15:50   painful on your battery life.

01:15:52   And the thing is, that's not instantaneous.

01:15:54   It's not a snapshot of looking at activity monitor top.

01:15:57   That energy stuff is averaged over a long period of time.

01:16:00   So it's trying to say, in the past 10 minutes, 15 minutes,

01:16:03   hour, whatever, even an activity monitor,

01:16:05   the average energy impact, it's not like,

01:16:08   right now I'm not doing anything in Photoshop.

01:16:09   Why is it in the menu?

01:16:10   It's in the menu because over the past little while,

01:16:13   that's been the guy that's been using a lot of your energy,

01:16:15   even if you're not doing it right now.

01:16:17   So if he was just saying, I don't have any documents open

01:16:19   now and it's still in the menu,

01:16:20   yeah, it's gonna be in the menu.

01:16:21   But if you haven't touched Photoshop in 10, 15, 20 minutes

01:16:24   and it's still in the menu,

01:16:25   then maybe something's going wrong.

01:16:26   Obviously, it's there kind of quote, unquote, "unfairly."

01:16:30   And I think the annoying users who

01:16:33   are going to send an email to developers--

01:16:35   maybe not Adobe, because they're not going to listen or whatever.

01:16:38   But if you make some little application,

01:16:40   and your users keep sending you email,

01:16:42   maybe it'll make you look at the WWDC session

01:16:45   about how can I make my application more

01:16:47   energy efficient.

01:16:49   There's so much low-hanging fruit

01:16:50   that regular developers can do.

01:16:52   And Apple trying to preach at them at WWDC,

01:16:54   saying, oh, having session after session about here's

01:16:56   you be energy efficient? They've been doing that for years, and developers are like, "Yeah,

01:16:59   yeah, whatever." Now, if it's a support load and your customers realize that you're doing

01:17:03   something silly, then maybe you're like, "Okay, fine. I'll go look at the sessions and I'll

01:17:07   change my application."

01:17:08   Yeah, and I don't know. It's just one of those cultural things where maybe it's like the

01:17:15   way that certain values get hammered, just kind of become ingrained over time. I don't

01:17:25   I just might be a bad analogy but like when when I grew up

01:17:27   you know

01:17:28   nobody had car seats and the kids just stood in the backseat and jumped up and down until you got to where you were going

01:17:33   Now if you saw like a four-year-old kid standing in the backseat of a car, you'd be appalled you would call it called police

01:17:39   I wouldn't I mean, you know

01:17:41   Just want kids to die and right well

01:17:45   I don't want him to die. I would just wish him good

01:17:48   I was just send like a good thought his way and hope that I hope his parents aren't safe drivers

01:17:53   I don't want to get involved.

01:17:55   Is that terrible?

01:17:56   Would you call the police?

01:17:57   Dr. Justin Marchegiani Talk to Amy about it after the show.

01:18:00   Dr. Justin Marchegiani Alright.

01:18:03   But you know, it's collectively we've shared—we've raised the importance of safety in cars, you

01:18:11   know, collectively, you know, where adults are expected to be wearing seatbelts.

01:18:15   Seatbelts are expected to, you know, you know, we expect even more now.

01:18:19   We have airbags and side impact airbags.

01:18:22   We have all this stuff.

01:18:23   You're expected to survive most car crashes.

01:18:27   It's just become a priority.

01:18:29   And I think that energy usage and doing--

01:18:32   just every little step along the way, prioritizing these things

01:18:37   has got to become a developer priority.

01:18:40   Yeah, I don't remember what I actually said,

01:18:42   but I was tempted to say that that little presence in the menu

01:18:45   bar is the most important energy saving feature of the OS long term.

01:18:49   because it's the part-- you can do all you want with the internals

01:18:52   and all you want with developer evangelism, but it's so hard to--

01:18:56   it's like eating your vegetables.

01:18:58   It's so hard to get people to care about this.

01:19:00   You need something.

01:19:01   What's going to move the needle on this one aspect of this?

01:19:04   Because that's the worst thing that could have happened to Apple.

01:19:06   And that's one of the reasons that I ran my Mavericks energy

01:19:08   test with only Apple-supplied applications plus Flash,

01:19:12   is because if third-party developers don't get on board with this,

01:19:15   there's nothing Mavericks can do to extend your battery life,

01:19:18   because you're just going to keep running the same third party applications you have.

01:19:21   They're going to need up all your battery.

01:19:22   And maybe the OS trying to be quiet will help a little,

01:19:25   but if the OS itself, if you aren't using Apple's bundled applications,

01:19:29   you aren't getting the benefit of Apple's work that they did on that.

01:19:31   And the OS is rarely doing anything anyway, so maybe you get a little benefit.

01:19:35   But third party applications will just kill your battery life.

01:19:38   And so how do you do that?

01:19:39   We made this amazing OS that can be super energy efficient.

01:19:42   We have all these new APIs that you can learn when you're not visible

01:19:45   and learn when you don't have to draw stuff and set your priorities and throttle.

01:19:48   if no one uses those APIs, you don't get the benefit of all this hard work. It's like,

01:19:52   how the hell do we get people to use these APIs? You have to shame them. You have to put them up

01:19:56   there and go, this guy right here, he sucks. You know, and you're going to unfairly shame

01:20:01   applications that are not doing anything bad that merely are being used a lot.

01:20:05   Because or because the whole point of them is to do something CPU. Yeah, like like a game like

01:20:10   yes, a game is going to destroy your battery life. That's the whole point of the game is to use every

01:20:13   single resource on the entire system to its maximum extent. If you're not using every execution unit

01:20:18   In your and every core in your CPU and you know using all the bandwidth and all the processing power in your GPU

01:20:23   You know

01:20:24   That's not a good game design

01:20:25   right if you shoot 300 photographs and a bunch of videos on vacation and come in and plug it in and take

01:20:31   Start sucking those pictures off your SD card into iPhoto or Lightroom or aperture and you have it set to you know

01:20:37   Like aperture a Lightroom. I don't know if I voted that but you can like and you know put like a

01:20:43   default

01:20:45   filter over every one of them. You're filtering 300 photos at once while reading from a slow

01:20:50   SD card. It's going to be, you know, that's exactly what you're asking the app to do,

01:20:55   though, is to do something that is, you know, IO and CPU intensive.

01:21:00   And so it's going to get painted with the same brush. So it's not a perfect system,

01:21:04   but it's the only tool they have at their disposal. They were desperate enough, it's

01:21:07   like, "We've just got to shame them." You know, like, I guess it's kind of still hidden

01:21:12   in a little bit, but it's prominent enough. Like, activity monitor is not sufficient.

01:21:16   No one goes to activity monitor, but people click that battery menu, especially when they

01:21:19   want to see the time remaining if they don't display it. They're like, "Oh, I see the battery.

01:21:25   The little stuff inside the battery has moved a little bit, but I want to know how much

01:21:28   time do I have left?" And a lot of people don't display that in the menu bar. I don't

01:21:31   even know if you can anymore, because it takes up more room. So they click to see, and when

01:21:34   they click to see it, there is the hall of shame right there.

01:21:37   I love it. I do. I do. I just did not give... This is one of those things where I just didn't

01:21:42   give it a lot of thought before reading your review. And then I really... Like you said,

01:21:45   I really do think it might have the most lasting impact of all of these changes on battery

01:21:49   life.

01:21:50   All right. Let me do the second sponsor break. I'm going to talk about our good friends,

01:21:55   long-time Mac developers, now great iOS developers too. Smile. And they have a great app I want

01:22:02   I tell you about called PDF pen scan plus.

01:22:07   PDF pen scan plus.

01:22:10   It's a great app.

01:22:11   One touch scanning directly from your iPhone or iPad camera.

01:22:17   You can scan multiple pages into a single document.

01:22:21   You can use OCR to convert scans into searchable PDFs.

01:22:26   The OCR is performed by the app itself,

01:22:28   not offloaded to a cloud service.

01:22:32   So you can do OCR even if you aren't connected to the network,

01:22:36   or if you have sensitive documents that you can't share,

01:22:40   or maybe it's like a HIPAA type thing, you're not legally--

01:22:43   you can't have this thing going off to a cloud service.

01:22:46   Happens right there on your iPhone or iPad.

01:22:50   You can export PDFs with the OCR text included.

01:22:55   They support 16 languages for OCR.

01:22:58   It's a perfect companion to Smiles' great app, PDF Pen,

01:23:04   for iPad and iPhone, which is a great, great PDF.

01:23:07   These guys have been doing great stuff with PDF for longer

01:23:11   than I can remember.

01:23:13   They have sharing options you can share by Dropbox,

01:23:17   Evernote, other services.

01:23:18   But just hooking up to Dropbox alone

01:23:20   means that you can use your iPhone or iPad

01:23:22   to scan documents, put them together, multiple pages, one

01:23:26   document, share it by Dropbox, and there it is waiting for you when you get back to your

01:23:30   Mac or wherever else you want it.

01:23:33   PDF Scan Plus is available on the App Store at the intro price of just $4.99.

01:23:40   Five bucks and it's like you've got what used to be a $100, $200 document scanner right

01:23:46   there on your iPhone.

01:23:48   I have a great video, a demo video by David Sparks, who's a great podcaster and blogger.

01:23:57   He'll show you all the powerful features that are packed into this great tool.

01:24:01   So where do you go to find out more?

01:24:02   Go to Smilesoftware.com/talkshow.

01:24:11   And it will take you right there to the page where you can learn all about it.

01:24:17   Great app.

01:24:18   Scanning is one of those things that I still like let out a sigh when I realize I have to use my scanner because I've

01:24:23   Got my printer hooked up to my airport thing, but I can't do scanning through it

01:24:26   So every time I got a scan I have to like plug the printer directly into the computer to use a stupid flatbed

01:24:31   Scanner and lift the thing up and put it on so terrible

01:24:34   I I should just get this app and just stop doing that because I don't care about you know

01:24:38   Like I just want you know scanning documents for you know

01:24:41   Archival purposes or whatever just take my phone or iPod and take a picture of the thing

01:24:46   Yeah, it makes a ton of sense for me. I mean it's and I you know what am I doing?

01:24:50   I mean how often do I need to scan something, but when I do it's such a pain

01:24:53   Yeah, and the P it p didn't mention but like PDF pen there are other application for editing PDFs

01:24:57   It always annoyed me dealing with PDFs like a preview would almost kind of it was so close to being what you wanted

01:25:03   But you're like oh you can't really do that because it's a PDF and PDFs aren't editable to their read-only right having PDF pen

01:25:09   Like the whole concept of it's a PDF, but you can finally screw with it

01:25:12   It's like oh, thank God because it's nothing worse than just dealing with a PDF that you just want to change one little thing

01:25:16   or modify in some simple way that you think

01:25:18   should be possible and is not.

01:25:19   - Right, and it's, you know, I forget when I first saw that,

01:25:24   you know, like PDFs that you could have

01:25:26   that were clearly scanned, but had been OCR'd

01:25:29   so you can search--

01:25:30   - Yeah, you'd swipe the text and you're like,

01:25:32   how is it selecting this text?

01:25:33   - Right, because this is clearly not a font,

01:25:35   this is, you know, this looks like a fax.

01:25:37   - It's like ink blots and everything

01:25:38   and you're swiping over it.

01:25:40   - Powerful stuff.

01:25:41   OCR seems like one of those tasks,

01:25:44   I guess never gonna be perfect, of course.

01:25:46   I mean, you've talked about this on your show

01:25:48   with Marco and Casey about, you know,

01:25:52   I talked to Marco about it too,

01:25:55   the episode a couple weeks back where Casey brought up

01:25:57   the episode of the Shield show

01:26:01   where they made a joke about Siri.

01:26:03   And you pointed out, look, Siri could improve a lot

01:26:06   and maybe it needs to improve a lot,

01:26:08   but it's never going to not be make funable, right?

01:26:12   We're never gonna get to a point where AI,

01:26:15   at least in our lifetimes, where AI isn't going to be,

01:26:18   have some kind of uncanny valley,

01:26:20   where it's clearly not a person,

01:26:21   and therefore we can make fun of it.

01:26:24   OCR is sorta like that.

01:26:25   - If you wanna get really depressed about that,

01:26:26   think how often you see people make fun

01:26:28   of their human coworkers or assistants.

01:26:33   Even when you have an actual human,

01:26:35   it's the subject of ridicule

01:26:36   about how it doesn't understand what you want,

01:26:38   because it's not inside your brain.

01:26:40   It's an unsolvable problem.

01:26:44   Unless we have direct telepathy or become a hive mind.

01:26:48   And same thing with OCR. Human beings can't read stuff when it's

01:26:52   sufficiently smudged and crappy. Just look at the stupid captchas that we all have to do on the web.

01:26:56   Did you see the Paul

01:27:00   forget his last name, the guy from Tapbots

01:27:04   Tapbots Paul. See that's the thing, I don't know his last name.

01:27:08   Paul Paul hadad he bought a surface Microsoft surface to try it out and

01:27:14   Here's the capture. Yeah

01:27:17   I'm like a login or something you you buy a new surface and you start setting it up in the first run experience

01:27:22   like step four of the first run experience is to do a capture and it's like

01:27:28   Just in case you're a robot right with with hot dog fingers using the surface, right?

01:27:33   But why do they care if robots are buying surfaces? You're buying a surface.

01:27:38   It's like maybe, you know, again, you know, with water filled or hot dog fingers, like there's a

01:27:43   bunch of like machines somewhere where they have a bunch of surfaces lined up with these little

01:27:48   things, you know, trying to scam captchas. I don't understand it either.

01:27:54   There's another, a capture that I don't understand the scenario that they're defending against either

01:27:59   is the, what's that, the GoGo wireless internet

01:28:04   on the airplane.

01:28:07   At least, that's the network we have on US Air,

01:28:12   and I have an account, I fly enough where I have like,

01:28:16   I just have like my account credentials saved.

01:28:18   So when I'm on an airplane and there's WiFi,

01:28:21   I type in my password, I say yes, use my saved credit card,

01:28:26   and then I have to do a captcha.

01:28:28   And it stinks if you're on the phone,

01:28:30   because it's like you can't see the captcha

01:28:33   and see the text field and the keyboard all at the same time.

01:28:38   So you have to memorize the captcha and then type it in.

01:28:41   And it's case sensitive.

01:28:43   It's like, I don't understand what

01:28:45   they're defending against.

01:28:46   I just gave you my username and password.

01:28:48   I just let you charge my credit card.

01:28:50   Why am I doing a captcha?

01:28:52   There is a BS business buzzword to explain

01:28:55   every crazy thing like that.

01:28:56   And I think in this case, the BS word is best practices,

01:29:00   which is someone just decides it's best practice to have

01:29:01   a caption on every login screen,

01:29:03   and then they blanket apply that policy.

01:29:04   Why? Best practices, best practices.

01:29:06   This is definitely a Merlin topic.

01:29:08   And so you end up with it in places where it makes no sense

01:29:11   because if you didn't take it there, it's like,

01:29:12   well, don't you understand?

01:29:13   That's best practices.

01:29:14   Everyone has captures now.

01:29:15   It's corporate policy.

01:29:16   - Way to the future.

01:29:17   - Yep.

01:29:18   (laughing)

01:29:20   Have you even seen that movie?

01:29:22   - The Aviator?

01:29:23   - Yeah.

01:29:24   - Oh yeah, I love it.

01:29:25   I wonder, I mean, I've seen it as well, but I think the movie is more obscure than

01:29:32   a lot of the other things they reference, even like the Big Lebowski, but now it has

01:29:36   come to prominence due to their obsession with it.

01:29:39   Yeah, I think that the Aviator, I saw it when, I didn't see it in theaters, it's

01:29:45   the whole having kids thing where I don't see many movies at all in theaters anymore,

01:29:49   but I did see it when it first, I love, big Scorsese fan, and so when it first came out

01:29:53   on iTunes, I got it. And I remember being a little disappointed the first time I saw

01:29:57   it. I don't know what I expected it to be. I guess I wanted it to be Goodfellas with

01:30:01   a billionaire. And it wasn't. And I was a little disappointed. And then I watched it

01:30:07   like a year or so ago and thought, "My God, what a remarkable movie." The second time

01:30:12   I watched it a year or two later, two, three years later, I really thought, "This is just

01:30:17   fantastic. Love that movie."

01:30:19   It grows on you. You know, I don't think I'm obsessive compulsive. I don't have any kind

01:30:28   of disorder like that, but it seems like such an otherworldly... If you don't suffer from it,

01:30:33   I think it's hard to imagine it, and I feel like he really kind of... I don't know. By the second

01:30:39   time I watched it, I came out of it thinking somehow, "There but for the grace of God go I."

01:30:42   Maybe I am a little closer to that than than

01:30:45   comfort

01:30:47   Yeah

01:30:48   You know I think everyone can identify with it a little bit all right

01:30:51   Some some more than others. Let's say all right

01:30:54   What a great guy that Howard Hughes was I

01:31:00   I don't know if I've ever seen anything about him

01:31:05   That wasn't like fictionalized like news reels or interviews or read anything about the actual person so all I have in my mind is the

01:31:11   fictional Howard Hughes. Yeah, just building airplanes, building casinos, and

01:31:17   dating famous actresses, making movies. There's a life. I mean, what more was there to do?

01:31:25   Peeing into bottles, wearing tissue boxes on your feet. Yeah, that doesn't end well.

01:31:28   This is really, really this is a cautionary tale about working from home.

01:31:34   You should be, that's why you should be on the watch out for this.

01:31:37   Exactly, that's that is sort of

01:31:40   That is sort of I think what made it uncomfortable for me so I installed the

01:31:46   David underscores underscore David Smith. How do we say his name?

01:31:51   underscore David Smith, yes

01:31:53   his

01:31:55   Pedometer app for the iPhone the what's it called steps. I forget what?

01:32:00   Pedometer plus plus plus plus I don't know what I don't know how it got two pluses but

01:32:06   Pedometer plus plus great app. I think it's a free app and there's like you can do it like an in-app purchase to give them

01:32:12   a couple bucks

01:32:13   But it just ties into your the motion

01:32:16   Processor and the iPhone 5s and gives you your steps

01:32:20   I

01:32:22   Take shockingly few steps on some days and this is this is still

01:32:28   Before winter, you know, it's it's actually, you know, October in Philadelphia is actually beautiful. It's probably

01:32:35   Probably my favorite month the climate wise in Philadelphia. It couldn't be more beautiful. We haven't had a lot of rain

01:32:41   There's zero reason why I shouldn't be getting more steps than at any point in here

01:32:45   And I've you know, I took here you go Wednesday. I took 13 steps

01:32:50   Don't you have to get coffee in the morning?

01:32:52   Don't you like the Starbucks down the street from every morning or something make it at home now Oh

01:32:56   Amy's got the Fitbit and everything that you should buy you one and you could be like Fitbit buddies

01:33:02   then maybe you'd be motivated, because now you just

01:33:04   have like 13 steps.

01:33:06   Did you walk really carefully from your bed to the office

01:33:09   so those didn't count as steps, like you

01:33:10   were shuffling your feet and your bunny slippers?

01:33:12   No.

01:33:13   So here's my actual score for Wednesday, October 30,

01:33:15   was 3,466 steps.

01:33:18   But you're supposed to-- and it gets colored red.

01:33:22   So 10,000, everybody says, is what you want every day.

01:33:27   I only got 3,466 on Wednesday.

01:33:31   Yeah, those step draggers there, I feel like they should count things differently.

01:33:34   Because I park in a parking garage, like I usually on the fifth floor by the time I get

01:33:37   there, and I run up and down those steps to the fifth floor parking garage, and those

01:33:40   should count for more steps than just walking up the steps.

01:33:43   Yeah, that's because—

01:33:44   You run up five flights of stairs, it's very different than walking up five flight

01:33:46   stairs, and yet same number of steps.

01:33:48   Yeah, yeah.

01:33:49   Taking steps, going up as flight of steps is definitely more, and going down steps is

01:33:55   less, I think.

01:33:56   Yeah.

01:33:57   Because you just, you know, going down steps is really just a controlled fall.

01:33:59   And they're just trying to get you to move.

01:34:00   I mean, it's motivating you to get outside more.

01:34:04   You could get yourself a dog or something.

01:34:06   Trick or treat.

01:34:07   Trick or treat today, though.

01:34:08   I got a good one.

01:34:09   I got 15,000 steps.

01:34:11   Yeah, well, there you go.

01:34:13   Once your son gets tired of you, which will happen,

01:34:15   then you get yourself a dog, and you'll have something

01:34:17   to do in your old age.

01:34:19   Go ahead.

01:34:19   Take the dog out for a walk every day.

01:34:21   It makes you get outside.

01:34:22   You're not a smoker, so you don't have a reason

01:34:23   to be outside in the winter, right?

01:34:25   So you've got to get some reason to be out there.

01:34:27   Do you track your steps?

01:34:30   You don't track your steps.

01:34:31   No, I don't use any.

01:34:32   I think I might be interested in trying it.

01:34:35   I like the concept of the gameplay type thing,

01:34:37   but it's never come up.

01:34:39   I sure as hell don't want to wear anything

01:34:41   on my wrist, which is going to be a problem for the iWatch.

01:34:43   But I don't want one of those Fitbit that's attached there.

01:34:45   And the ones that clip onto your clothes,

01:34:47   I know it's just like my laundry machines will eat it.

01:34:50   I'm not responsible enough to have

01:34:52   $100 little rubberized electronic turds

01:34:56   clipped to my clothes, because I'll wash it in the first week,

01:34:58   and then I'll have to buy another one.

01:34:59   Eventually, it's like it's like a tax of like, you know average of $75 a month for the rest of my life to keep buying new

01:35:04   Fitbits. Yeah, I'm exactly the same. I I bought one

01:35:07   I bought the it was an Indiegogo project or it was a Kickstarter one of those things. It was called the misfit shine

01:35:13   You know misfit is the company

01:35:16   and it's like a you know a

01:35:19   Fitbit and it was a little it's like a little quarter-sized disc and it had a couple of ways

01:35:25   You could wear you could wear it on your wrist. I chose not to I

01:35:28   Magnet thing I put it on my pants and I had it for six days before I lost it like on the seventh day

01:35:33   I was like, where's that thing? And I'm no I felt in the toilet somewhere, you know, I do

01:35:37   Yeah, and I didn't remember I couldn't remember the last time I checked it from the day before I remember

01:35:43   I definitely had it the day before and at some point I didn't have it and then it's gone

01:35:47   So the phone is the perfect thing then because the phone is like you're not gonna lose track of that because it cost so much

01:35:51   Money and you're using it all the time and it's got the tracker in and it doesn't kill your battery

01:35:54   so you're good to go.

01:35:55   Like, I put that, I put underscore David Smith's Spinnaker plus list thing on my wife's iPhone.

01:36:00   It doesn't work for her, unfortunately, because her phone is not allowed in all sorts of places

01:36:04   in her work for security reasons.

01:36:07   So it's like she doesn't get the benefit of the steps that are taking place when she doesn't

01:36:11   have her phone with her, because a lot of times it has to be left elsewhere.

01:36:14   So her numbers are low, but she has excuses.

01:36:17   It's like a secure zone 12 stories up, and the only way to get there is on a flight of

01:36:23   stairs.

01:36:24   You can't bring it with you. You gotta stay in the purse in the office.

01:36:28   So like the longest hallway in the whole facility. No credit.

01:36:31   It's Maxwell Smart. You gotta throw all those doors.

01:36:33   Right. What else in Mavericks? What's your favorite thing? What's your favorite thing

01:36:40   that they did this year in Mavericks? I said this on ATP that we recorded earlier

01:36:45   in the week and people are going to think I'm crazy or a total noob as the kids say.

01:36:50   Like, you know the whole thing of back when Mac OS X was slow?

01:36:53   After every release of OS X, people in the forums

01:36:56   would install it.

01:36:57   Oh, it's so much snappier.

01:36:59   And it's because every time you install a new version of the OS

01:37:02   like you've quit all your applications,

01:37:04   everything's fresh, all the caches are rebuilt for you.

01:37:08   Of course it feels faster.

01:37:09   You just click System Preferences,

01:37:10   and it was like one bounce.

01:37:11   And it opened right up.

01:37:12   Because nothing else was happening in your machine

01:37:13   because you just rebooted it and you just reinstalled the OS.

01:37:16   Of course it feels snappy.

01:37:18   So that effect has always been there, right?

01:37:20   But I really feel like having installed Mavericks

01:37:22   on so many machines, that it actually does feel snappier,

01:37:27   taking into account that yes, of course,

01:37:29   it's gonna be a snapper and everything's quit.

01:37:30   Like I've been using it for days and days and days,

01:37:32   like the release version on my real machines,

01:37:34   to do real work, in actual work, and it feels snappier.

01:37:39   And it could all be in my head.

01:37:41   I'm totally willing to believe that it's all in my head.

01:37:43   But if it's not all in my head, what it's coming from is

01:37:46   My computer is doing less useless crap.

01:37:48   And that means it's more available to do the stuff

01:37:52   that I want it to do.

01:37:53   And so it could just be they shorten some animation somewhere.

01:37:56   It could be anything.

01:37:57   Even terminal, for instance.

01:38:00   When I use terminal and type ls or something in a local directory

01:38:03   or do something that spits out text, it seems like the text

01:38:05   appears in the terminal window faster.

01:38:07   And it's like, that can't be possible.

01:38:09   It already appeared so lightning fast.

01:38:10   It wasn't like I was waiting for little characters.

01:38:12   It was already so fast.

01:38:13   Why does it feel faster to me?

01:38:15   So there's some either psychological,

01:38:19   not really there, but I think it's there,

01:38:21   or actual kind of like trickery, perceived trickery,

01:38:24   or whatever, it just, you know,

01:38:26   maybe it's just because I spent so freaking long

01:38:28   writing that review, it just feels more efficient to me.

01:38:30   It just does.

01:38:32   - I think it's subtle, but I think it does feel

01:38:35   a little snappier too, and I'm running it mostly

01:38:36   on a very old PowerBook, a 2008 MacBook,

01:38:40   when I say PowerBook, MacBook Pro.

01:38:43   and the 2010 MacBook Air that I mentioned in my iPad review.

01:38:49   Not new stuff.

01:38:51   So there's definitely-- and I feel like on both machines,

01:38:53   it feels a little snappier.

01:38:54   And I think there's got to be room for that snappiness

01:38:58   improvement because, specifically,

01:39:00   just comparing the way Mac OS X feels to an iPad, even older

01:39:05   iPads.

01:39:06   And that's just the whole initial appeal of iOS is,

01:39:10   my god this this feels so much more responsive to my input than my computer

01:39:17   even though it's only you know a tenth or is 20th you know as powerful as a you

01:39:22   know CPU eyes my actual favorite like real feature that is not all in my head

01:39:27   is the new version of Safari because I use Safari as my main browser but I also

01:39:33   run Chrome all day I always use two browsers and have certain things I do in

01:39:36   and certain things I do in Safari,

01:39:37   but Safari is my default.

01:39:40   And one of the things I always liked about Safari

01:39:42   is I felt like when I hit Command-N to make a new window,

01:39:45   which I occasionally do because I don't always use tabs,

01:39:46   so I feel like they get too crowded to make a new window,

01:39:49   it just felt like it was fast.

01:39:50   It was like a native UI.

01:39:52   Everything about it was native.

01:39:53   It was fast, right?

01:39:54   And Chrome, what I liked about it was

01:39:56   I felt like when Safari was starting to get hung up,

01:39:59   especially Safari 6 and the WebKit 2 thing

01:40:01   where I would get hung up and you get that dialog box

01:40:03   and you have to reload all your windows, which pissed me off

01:40:05   no end. When that happened, or when something was slower, when I just saw the progress bar

01:40:09   in Safari just hanging there, I always knew I could switch to Chrome, make a new window,

01:40:15   and because it was a separate process, no matter what the hell's going on in all my other Chrome

01:40:18   tabs and all my other Chrome windows, no matter what the hell Safari is doing being hung,

01:40:22   I can get a new Chrome window and it will load the damn thing that I want it to load,

01:40:25   because it's independent. And so going to process per tab in Safari is like...

01:40:29   Maybe this is just me. People write in and say, "I still get that dialog box that says

01:40:35   things are not responding. It's just not all the tabs in Safari now, it's just a few of them.

01:40:38   Which I suppose could happen, but I used to get that "pages are not responding,

01:40:42   do you want to visit page or reload all the tabs" thing.

01:40:45   Used to get it in the old version of Safari constantly.

01:40:48   It was driving me nuts, it was driving me to the point where I was thinking of switching my default browser.

01:40:51   And during the whole course of writing the review on a Mountain Lion system,

01:40:55   I kept getting it again and again. It was taunting me, saying goodbye to me.

01:40:58   And I never once, not once, still haven't, not once, gotten it on Mavericks or Safari 7.

01:41:03   I don't you know it may happen

01:41:05   You know and it may be when it happens it still happens in the effect is less

01:41:08   But I just haven't seen it all and that that that is a big change in my daily life because if you use safari is

01:41:14   Your default browser and you get that thing like more than you know once every couple of weeks

01:41:18   It really changes when that just goes away, and you don't see that anymore

01:41:22   Yeah, I you the story you just told is me exactly everything about it. I'd Safari is my default browser

01:41:29   I

01:41:30   I've run into that dialog box all the time

01:41:35   over the time that Safari's used that

01:41:40   two process architecture, where there was one

01:41:44   to render the UI and one monolithic process

01:41:47   to handle all of the rendering.

01:41:50   That whole time, was it just one OS release

01:41:53   or was it two OS releases?

01:41:54   Was it just Mountain Lion?

01:41:56   - I am so bad at remembering what you're saying, Matt.

01:41:59   I think it might have been Lion and Mountain Lion, whatever

01:42:01   WebKit2 came out of.

01:42:02   Well, the whole time I ran into that so many times.

01:42:04   And when it would get bad, that and that reason alone

01:42:08   made me think that maybe I should switch

01:42:10   to Chrome as my main browser.

01:42:13   The only reason-- and there's not one other thing about Chrome

01:42:16   that I prefer to Safari, except for the fact

01:42:18   that Chrome for years has had a-- each tab gets

01:42:22   its own rendering process.

01:42:24   I do like other things about Chrome.

01:42:27   When I use Google's applications,

01:42:28   I use them in Chrome because I think

01:42:29   it's a nice marriage between all their crazy stuff

01:42:31   that they do to make things fast and everything.

01:42:33   But it's just Chrome is-- and again,

01:42:35   people have different experiences.

01:42:36   People email me and say, you keep saying Chrome is solid,

01:42:39   but it crashes for me all the time.

01:42:40   Chrome is so solid for me.

01:42:42   I'm on the beta channel for Chrome.

01:42:44   I don't even do the regular releases.

01:42:45   I'm on the beta.

01:42:46   So every time a new beta comes out,

01:42:47   I just get it automatically.

01:42:48   And even that, I always know if I go to Chrome

01:42:52   and make a new window or a new tab, I can load a page.

01:42:55   It will never, no matter what's happening,

01:42:57   their architecture is so good.

01:42:59   And maybe Safari's not up to that level yet,

01:43:01   but Chrome has always been just rock solid.

01:43:03   And yeah, the UI looks weird,

01:43:04   and I don't like how it's not native

01:43:06   and all this other stuff,

01:43:06   but there are things I do like about Chrome.

01:43:08   - Yeah, I wouldn't say that there's nothing else

01:43:10   I don't like about it,

01:43:11   but there's nothing that tempted me to switch,

01:43:13   because I'm not a big user of Google Apps.

01:43:15   I don't like the stuff that I don't like.

01:43:17   I don't like the non-standard UI.

01:43:19   So I'm not saying that,

01:43:21   I can see why other people use Chrome for other reasons,

01:43:24   But for me, the main thing that was always drawing me

01:43:28   was the processor architecture.

01:43:31   - And more recently, work-related.

01:43:33   I've found myself using the dev tools built into Chrome.

01:43:38   I mean, you think, oh, they're both based on WebKit

01:43:40   and they both use the WebKit debugger,

01:43:41   but they've diverged significantly over the years

01:43:43   in terms of what those things look like.

01:43:44   And they're pretty much feature-comparable.

01:43:46   It's not like the Safari Web Inspector lacks features.

01:43:50   It's just the way things are arranged.

01:43:51   I've just got, again, with Chrome being so reliable

01:43:54   And when you're debugging a web app,

01:43:55   you're doing all sorts of crazy crap and certain breakpoints

01:43:58   and putting in bad JavaScript that you're trying to fix

01:44:00   and all sorts of things that can very quickly get Safari

01:44:04   confused and hosed.

01:44:05   And when it's hosed, the whole app, back in the bad old days,

01:44:07   was hosed.

01:44:09   I run Chrome and never have to relaunch it.

01:44:11   And so I work.

01:44:12   When I'm doing work-related stuff and debugging

01:44:14   JavaScript that I could-- webkit-related issues

01:44:16   or just testing a web app that I'm writing in JavaScript,

01:44:19   I do all my debugging in Chrome these days.

01:44:21   Even though it's not as nice and pretty as the debugger

01:44:23   and Safari and Safari debugger has gotten a lot better.

01:44:26   I just find myself-- even now with Safari 7,

01:44:29   I still use Chrome as my debugger.

01:44:32   It used to be that I would use Firebug and Firefox back

01:44:34   when nobody had good debugging, except for Firefox.

01:44:36   So Google, a feature that most people don't care about.

01:44:39   But if you're a web developer, I think

01:44:41   Chrome's web development tools have really come a long way,

01:44:44   and I lean on them every day.

01:44:47   I think with Safari breaking a web kit

01:44:51   into the separate process architecture--

01:44:53   And it seems like there's a big political backstory to that.

01:44:56   And you mentioned it, where Apple had invited Google

01:44:59   to contribute theirs to the WebKit project,

01:45:03   and Google declined.

01:45:05   And I also seem to recall reading something

01:45:09   about how that it wasn't that great anyway,

01:45:13   that it was a lot of work,

01:45:15   and what they've wound up with for WebKit 2 now

01:45:19   with this processor architecture is a lot better

01:45:23   then I don't know if it's better than Chrome,

01:45:26   but better for WebKit as a project

01:45:28   than Chrome's specific implementation would have been.

01:45:32   - No, I mean, that's a little bit sour grapes.

01:45:34   - I don't know.

01:45:35   - 'Cause I think, you know, like, if you look at what Chrome,

01:45:36   and proof is in the pudding, Chrome,

01:45:38   if you look at the Chrome documents

01:45:39   that I linked in the thing,

01:45:40   Chrome has the flexibility to do, you know,

01:45:43   the Chromium open source project that it's based on,

01:45:45   has the flexibility to do all sorts of different arrangements

01:45:47   in terms of processes and tabs and stuff like that.

01:45:50   You know, so it's very flexible,

01:45:52   And a lot of that stuff is implemented--

01:45:53   it's implemented in the application layer

01:45:55   versus being implemented in the engine layer.

01:45:57   Whereas when they did it in WebKit,

01:45:59   if Google had said, oh, sure, here you go.

01:46:03   We'll rip this stuff out of our Chromium stuff,

01:46:05   and we'll integrate it into WebKit,

01:46:06   and then we'll refactor Chrome to no longer do

01:46:09   this stuff at the application level,

01:46:10   but to use the thing that we put into WebKit.

01:46:13   I think Apple sure would have liked that, because they're

01:46:15   like, hey, Google has already worked out this process stuff,

01:46:17   and their stuff is really solid.

01:46:19   But Google was like, no, I thought

01:46:21   that's not the proper place for it.

01:46:22   We like the layering area, we've picked it, whatever.

01:46:25   And it just didn't work out,

01:46:26   so the Apple had to do something,

01:46:27   and what it did was it said,

01:46:28   well, we'll put it in the engine.

01:46:30   We'll make it an engine-level feature,

01:46:32   'cause we think that's the right place for it or whatever.

01:46:34   And I don't think there's anything,

01:46:35   it's a difference in philosophy, a difference in design.

01:46:37   There's nothing about Apple's approach

01:46:39   that said it was necessarily going to be better or worse.

01:46:41   It just, it had bugs.

01:46:42   Like, it's not working right when things get wedged like that

01:46:45   Why did it have bugs?

01:46:46   Did it have bugs?

01:46:47   Because it's more difficult to make 15 different processes,

01:46:50   to make one process communicate with another

01:46:52   than to have a one-to-one link.

01:46:54   Having all your tabs communicating

01:46:55   with your one web backend versus having process per tab

01:46:58   where fine, if one tab goes off the rails,

01:47:00   it doesn't affect anything else.

01:47:02   I don't know, all I know is that the result was

01:47:05   that Chrome was kicking Safari's butt in terms of stability

01:47:08   and that something had to be done.

01:47:09   - And just in terms of what is it like to use it,

01:47:13   just put anything you can quantify aside,

01:47:17   put the stopwatch down, just use it.

01:47:19   it just felt responsive.

01:47:21   And like you said, you can always hit Command-T or Command-N

01:47:24   to get a new tab at any time.

01:47:25   Whereas in Safari, sometimes you end up with the spinner.

01:47:28   It's like everything classic Mac OS and Mac OS X

01:47:32   with preemptive multitasking versus cooperative.

01:47:34   Whereas in the old classic Mac days,

01:47:36   you could anger an application to a degree

01:47:38   that it would prevent you from doing something else.

01:47:40   Where in OS X, no matter how screwed some application is,

01:47:43   you can always click over to your Twitter client.

01:47:45   I do this frequently when I beach ball an application.

01:47:48   I just go over to another application.

01:47:49   That other application's not beach balled.

01:47:50   It's still pulling events off the queue.

01:47:53   We take that for granted with the modern OS,

01:47:55   that the processes are independent.

01:47:56   That's the job of the OS, to keep them independent.

01:47:59   Web browsers, even though it's one application,

01:48:02   logically speaking, you think of it as like,

01:48:05   well, that may be one application,

01:48:06   but I have a bazillion tabs open.

01:48:09   I want to see this tab.

01:48:10   I don't care if that tab is hung

01:48:11   with some stupid flash thing that's dying.

01:48:13   And so that architecture, like the web browser,

01:48:16   it's such an important application

01:48:17   it becomes a microcosm of the OS itself. It's like another level of hierarchy. And within

01:48:22   this application, those tabs better be independent of each other, just like processes are independent

01:48:27   of each other in the OS, so you make the tabs a process. And it's natural and it makes sense.

01:48:31   Like, the other approach could have worked. If it worked, fine, we wouldn't be having

01:48:34   this conversation, but it didn't. So thumbs up on changing it.

01:48:37   I've been under the impression, and I might be, again, I could be wrong on this, but I

01:48:41   was under the impression that maybe, I can't remember if somebody told me this or not.

01:48:46   My memory is really starting to-- I'm losing it, John.

01:48:49   But I seem to recall some discussion with somebody.

01:48:52   It seems like something maybe at WWDC.

01:48:54   But the gist of it was that Apple's Safari team never

01:48:57   really thought that that monolithic rendering

01:49:01   process that handles all of your tabs was the right decision.

01:49:06   It was what they-- it was just a matter of time,

01:49:09   that they wanted to break rendering

01:49:10   into a separate process for security reasons.

01:49:13   Yeah, for security reasons, yeah.

01:49:14   Only.

01:49:14   And it was really about security and having all the plugins in a sandbox rendering process

01:49:22   and that they could get that done in time for Lion and Mountain Lion, but that the work

01:49:28   that we now see to get each tab in its own rendering process, it was going to take this

01:49:34   long anyway.

01:49:36   So was it better or worse in the interim to have it split into that monolithic one?

01:49:41   I almost think it was worse,

01:49:42   that they would have been better security,

01:49:44   damn the security implications,

01:49:46   it would have been better to stick with

01:49:47   the old Safari architecture,

01:49:50   where it wasn't a separate process.

01:49:52   - Yeah, well, I mean, they took the lesson of Windows XP

01:49:55   to heart and said, like, the web,

01:49:56   it's so dangerous to have something,

01:49:58   because it wasn't just, like, sandboxing plugins is one thing.

01:50:00   The second thing was, like,

01:50:01   sandboxing JavaScript execution,

01:50:03   so that if someone found the exploit

01:50:05   where they could put JavaScript code on a webpage

01:50:06   that would cause a buffer overflow

01:50:09   in your JavaScript engine

01:50:10   cause arbitrary code execution, that now all of a sudden you had a webpage that could take

01:50:14   out people's Macs or steal information from them and do stuff like that.

01:50:18   And that's so incredible, especially in the days before the big push to send everybody

01:50:23   updates constantly, updates being shoved in people's faces so you had a chance of upgrading

01:50:29   everybody.

01:50:30   It was still coming off of the days where, oh god, if suddenly there was an exploit out

01:50:35   there that we didn't find out about until it started infecting people's computers and

01:50:39   and it's in a web browser and everybody's using it

01:50:41   and it's going all over the web, we're screwed.

01:50:43   So I understand the priority of like,

01:50:45   we gotta get JavaScript, any place,

01:50:47   any executable code that you wrote from another page runs,

01:50:50   it needs to be running someplace where it has no privileges.

01:50:51   So put it in that separate process

01:50:53   where it can't do anything.

01:50:54   And yet it's same thing with plugins,

01:50:55   get them in a sandbox because the down,

01:50:59   I mean, I guess the calculus was,

01:51:01   if we get, if something like that happens,

01:51:04   Macs will get a reputation for being bad and unsafe

01:51:06   and our browser is insecure and stuff like that.

01:51:08   And just get it done.

01:51:11   And I guess they were hoping it would work out,

01:51:14   but stability-wise it didn't.

01:51:16   But it's still probably better than the alternative.

01:51:19   Because Safari being flaky and occasionally

01:51:21   getting that dialogue once a week or so,

01:51:24   if you're lucky or unlucky,

01:51:26   does not make the evening news, so to speak.

01:51:29   Metaphorically speaking,

01:51:30   'cause no one watches the evening news anymore.

01:51:32   - Right.

01:51:32   - But if it's a security thing, it would.

01:51:33   - A webpage that takes over your computer

01:51:36   makes the news.

01:51:37   Yeah, it's Windows XP all over again.

01:51:39   It was a PR disaster for Microsoft.

01:51:40   It was the worst thing that could happen to you.

01:51:42   Once you get that reputation, it's hard to shake it.

01:51:44   So they probably made the right call.

01:51:46   But like so many things in people's lives,

01:51:51   how would our lives have been better

01:51:53   if mommy and daddy stayed together?

01:51:55   How would our lives be different if Google and Apple had divided

01:52:00   up the labors of inventing the future with Google doing

01:52:03   the server side and Apple doing the client side

01:52:05   and had not split up the way they did.

01:52:07   And this is just another artifact of that divorce,

01:52:11   that their interests were not aligned

01:52:13   when it came to Google made Chrome,

01:52:15   because it totally aligned with its interest,

01:52:17   built on a WebKit which aligned with Apple's interest,

01:52:19   but eventually their interest diverged enough

01:52:22   that now they're doing Blink and Apple's left with WebKit

01:52:24   and they couldn't agree on the process thing,

01:52:26   and it's all fallout from that split.

01:52:29   - In the mail today, I just got an advanced copy

01:52:32   of Dogfight, which is Fred Vogelstein's new book.

01:52:37   I think it comes out this week.

01:52:40   He's the guy who wrote that story that was in the,

01:52:42   or it was actually an excerpt from the book

01:52:44   that was in the New York Times a few weeks ago

01:52:45   where he talked to the engineer.

01:52:47   He got like a former Apple engineer to go on the record

01:52:50   and talk about the launch of the original iPhone.

01:52:52   Remember that story?

01:52:53   It was great.

01:52:54   - It's in Instapaper.

01:52:55   I haven't read it yet though.

01:52:56   - So that was an excerpt from this book,

01:52:58   and the gist of the book is just specifically

01:53:01   how you know the Apple and Google's fight over you know iOS and Android and you know

01:53:09   starting I think you know probably I don't know I haven't read the book yet but probably starting

01:53:14   like 2005 2006 when they were still saw it as like you said splitting it up with Google doing the

01:53:19   services and Apple doing the devices and how they got from there to here where they kind of hate

01:53:24   each other so I'm looking forward to it I don't read a lot of books like that but this one I'm

01:53:29   And especially based on the excerpt, which I thought was really dynamite.

01:53:32   Yeah, but nerds like us are so desperate for any real firsthand accounts from inside and you know

01:53:36   That's kind of like you just get it from like

01:53:39   It seems like you're not gonna get it

01:53:40   You're not gonna get the Phil Shilla tell all these not until he's like 85 or whatever

01:53:44   But you'll get like some random dude who you'd never heard of but you're like so hungry for any scrap of information about like oh

01:53:49   He was there and you know and yet and the worst thing about that is you never know like that guy could have an agenda

01:53:54   And could giving you it could be giving you a skewed view of things

01:53:57   but you'll never know because he's the only person talking at all. So that's what we got to go on and we just we just

01:54:00   want to know. We want to know what happened. It's our version of like People magazine.

01:54:03   Yeah, and it is there's sort of like a prisoner's dilemma aspect to it where it makes sense if everybody just keeps their mouth shut.

01:54:11   But if one guy speaks up, he's gonna put the story out there in his best light and

01:54:17   so it kind of makes sense for everybody to talk and that makes that's what makes it so surprising that Apple has maintained

01:54:24   Not to secrecy while you're working on stuff. I mean that's not that hard

01:54:27   But even the fact that you know, five six seven eight years later people don't talk about Apple stuff is kind of impressive

01:54:34   Well, we get like the book that would appeal to to me and maybe to other Apple nerds like you and everything would be

01:54:40   because we get this like

01:54:41   Ambiently where people will come off of come out of Apple and many years will pass and they'll tell you like more or less benign

01:54:48   stories about, you know, what was that guy who had like the writer's block website who

01:54:53   was, you know, worked on iDVD back in the day, what's that guy's name?

01:54:57   Oh, I forget, but I know him.

01:55:00   But it's so far removed now, and he's just gonna tell some like, you know, it's not gossip,

01:55:05   but reasonably pleasant stories about like what it was like trying to deal with the iDVD

01:55:09   intro, and even like, you know, Don Melton telling stories about, you know, they're not

01:55:14   the type of thing that makes for sensational excerpts from books, but the accumulation

01:55:18   of all those stories that either people publish or you hear at WWDC, they're not sensational

01:55:23   in themselves, but you start to form a picture from the fringes, from each little person's

01:55:28   anecdotes, like this little story and that little story and that little story, and you

01:55:30   start to get sort of, like we have this outsider perspective where we know nothing, and now

01:55:35   the shape is dimly visible underneath the black cloth, just from the accumulation of

01:55:39   these nice stories from friendly people at WWDC or P.O.

01:55:42   Pulsing, and it's so many years removed.

01:55:44   At this point, do people remember what iDVD was?

01:55:47   like the slot-loading IMAX. No one cares about that. So they feel safe in talking about that.

01:55:52   If we can't get the big names to ever talk, if someone just collected up all the little names

01:56:00   20 years away, you could make a nice sort of anthology.

01:56:03   Isn't the IDVD story another one of those 30-second meetings with Steve Jobs?

01:56:08   Isn't this story where they had all these complex mock-ups of different ways to do the design,

01:56:15   And they were gonna present these all these mock-ups to Steve Jobs and he came in and went to the whiteboard drew a rectangle

01:56:21   Said here's our interface you drag video here, and then there's a button at the bottom

01:56:26   It says rip and then he'd like walked it just left he goes that yeah

01:56:29   Yeah

01:56:30   There's something along those lines and the other part of the story was like what it was like

01:56:33   To be behind the scenes and responsible for making one of Steve's like old-style Mac world demos

01:56:39   You know like right?

01:56:40   You know, pre-OS 10, pre-iPhone, pre-everything,

01:56:43   to make one of those demos go off without a hitch

01:56:45   and everything that goes on behind the scenes.

01:56:47   There was a recent story about that

01:56:49   from some piece of software.

01:56:50   Was that on a podcast recently, maybe?

01:56:53   I don't know.

01:56:53   What was it?

01:56:54   There was some piece of software,

01:56:55   and they were paranoid that it wasn't going to work,

01:56:57   and they were drinking.

01:56:58   From your podcast, they were drinking in the audience?

01:57:00   No.

01:57:01   That's the Fred Vogelstein story from the engineer

01:57:04   at the original iPhone demo.

01:57:06   Yeah, you must have talked about it on the talk show.

01:57:08   Yeah.

01:57:08   that they had a flask of scots that they were passing.

01:57:11   - Yeah, 'cause it was like the odds of it getting through

01:57:13   that the demo perfectly.

01:57:14   And that's who you're gonna hear from,

01:57:16   the guy who's like, his name's not on the marquee.

01:57:19   He's not on the PR BIOS page,

01:57:22   but he's the poor guy who's in charge

01:57:24   of the particular application that Steve is demoing

01:57:26   and it damn well better work.

01:57:27   - And each time one of the guys,

01:57:29   like the second or third row Apple guys,

01:57:32   the engineers who'd been invited,

01:57:33   each time your thing, the thing you had worked on,

01:57:36   Like if you worked on mail, and when he got through

01:57:41   the iPhone mail demo and it didn't crash,

01:57:44   then you would just quick take the flask

01:57:46   and be like, thank God almighty, I made it past my part.

01:57:50   Mine wasn't the thing that blew up on stage.

01:57:52   - Yeah, what I would like to hear from,

01:57:54   like you get down to the level of like the stage,

01:57:57   I don't know what you call the people,

01:57:58   remember when you used to have things raise out of the stage

01:58:00   and you always had to come up with like an elevator

01:58:02   and stuff, if those things ever got stuck,

01:58:04   they would be held to pay.

01:58:04   So, you know, some guys do practice and bringing that thing up and down 20 times, making sure

01:58:08   the little cloth doesn't fall off when it goes up and down, all that stuff.

01:58:15   I remember somebody told me once that, and I'm sure they still do it because why would

01:58:18   they stop, but that after the final rehearsal, which I, and again, I don't know if this is

01:58:26   true. This is one of those things where who knows, but I've always heard that they do

01:58:29   one the morning of the events, that there's like a same, you know, they rehearse the day

01:58:33   day before all day until late at night, and then the morning they do a rehearsal. I don't

01:58:37   know if that's true or not, but after the last rehearsal, a white glove team comes out

01:58:43   and wipes everything down. The desks that the Demo Max are on, the Demo Max, everything.

01:58:51   Everything gets wiped down with white gloves to factory-fresh, perfect status. The reason

01:59:00   Why? Just because.

01:59:03   Even just hearing that story makes me nervous that the guys wiping stuff down are going

01:59:06   to bump a cable loose and screw up. We did the run-through. Everything went perfectly.

01:59:10   What the hell happened? Well, the cleaning crew, one guy pulled out one pin of the dock

01:59:14   connector slightly, and now everything's all screwed up.

01:59:17   Yeah. I imagine those guys are like CSI crime lab delicate. Yeah, they're going to get every

01:59:25   fingerprint off the glass, but they are using the least minimum pressure necessary to do

01:59:29   I gotta do a third sponsor and I have a few other questions for you. I want to tell you about Igloo, long time sponsors of the show. Great, great service.

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02:00:19   You have your own little thing. Be perfect. The whole thing is social. You can comment on any

02:00:27   type of content. You can @ mention your co-workers, just like on Twitter, all of it private to your own

02:00:33   team. You can follow content so you can get updates. They have tags to group things around

02:00:42   the way you work. So you can use the same tag on a blog entry as on an event on the

02:00:48   calendar and you can group them together by that tag. It's easy. The whole thing is drag

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02:01:29   and you can find out more. So they mentioned tags in the igloo thing. So tags are a new

02:01:38   feature in Mavericks and I had no idea. This is something I just wasn't paying attention

02:01:45   until I read your review that they really are sort of piggybacked on the old labels.

02:01:54   The labels feature that goes all the way back to System 7.

02:01:56   Yeah, there has been this feature where you could apply a color with an associated word

02:02:03   to a file forever, for ages.

02:02:06   It makes you feel old when you talk to someone who thinks, "I think I heard someone say on

02:02:10   a podcast or read somewhere..."

02:02:12   I think they added those in Jaguar.

02:02:13   It's like, "Oh, man."

02:02:15   Anyway, there already is a feature that does that.

02:02:18   And so it is very on-apple-like, despite what people think about them breaking with the

02:02:23   past and doing these clean breaks.

02:02:24   in terms of software compatibility, if there's already a feature that does that, and they

02:02:27   already carried it across OS boundaries, bringing it from classic into OS X, like they brought

02:02:31   it forward, you're going to make a new feature that gives you a new way to apply multiple

02:02:35   colors and words to files. Not making it backward compatible in some way would just be weird

02:02:41   and just not... Some people won't use labels at all, fine, but other people use them, like

02:02:45   they put everything like the red ones are the ones I've got to work on next week, and

02:02:48   I know when I change it it'll be blue, like they use them as an alternate way instead

02:02:52   of arranging things in folders.

02:02:54   And if you made this new system that was completely independent of that, it would not go over

02:02:59   well.

02:03:00   It would be like, "Well, now what do I use?

02:03:01   I use labels or use tags.

02:03:02   Do I have to go back to all my files that are labeled and tag them with the same color

02:03:05   as the labels?"

02:03:06   So it just makes sense from a user-friendliness and from an Apple philosophy of backward compatibility,

02:03:11   especially for a feature that's lasted this long, to say, "All right, we'll build on it.

02:03:14   It will be a superset.

02:03:15   We can't totally make it up, because you can only have one label, but whatever the most

02:03:20   recent tag you put will be the label. And as I explained in the review, the implementation

02:03:26   details that I go into explain why it works this way. Why are there only seven labels?

02:03:31   Why are the names independent of the colors? Why could I get into these weird scenarios

02:03:37   when I copy it from one disk to the other? What happens if I change the name of a label

02:03:40   that a million files are labeled with?

02:03:42   Why do you not get to pick your own colors? You get to pick any of these seven colors,

02:03:46   but you can't make your own mauve.

02:03:48   - Yeah, although they could do that.

02:03:50   Like they used to be able to change the colors,

02:03:52   but like it's just, you see what it is,

02:03:53   it's a number, one through six.

02:03:55   Zero means no label, one through six is, you know,

02:03:57   here are things that you get to pick from.

02:03:59   And once you understand the implementation,

02:04:02   then you're like, oh, I see how the behavior

02:04:04   falls out of the implementation.

02:04:06   And why do they use that implementation?

02:04:08   Well, because it allows it to be backward compatible

02:04:10   with the existing labels.

02:04:11   And why do the using labels use this crazy ass implementation?

02:04:14   'Cause they're from like 1988, that's why.

02:04:16   So it all connects back and it's all,

02:04:19   it gives an explanation of the feature

02:04:21   that it would be difficult to understand

02:04:24   what the hell's going on

02:04:25   without knowing these internal details.

02:04:26   'Cause otherwise it might seem like

02:04:27   either poorly implemented feature or nonsensical

02:04:30   or why does it work this way or it seems silly,

02:04:32   but there are reasons for it.

02:04:33   - And I guess the other way that it looks,

02:04:36   if you don't know the story behind it,

02:04:37   what makes it seem weird are the default tags,

02:04:40   which are color names, red, blue, yellow.

02:04:44   It just seems like an odd batch of defaults.

02:04:47   - Well, you remember what the old defaults were?

02:04:49   - Hot, essential.

02:04:51   - Yeah, yeah, right.

02:04:52   Like I threw one of the, I see a couple of those in there.

02:04:53   I think I threw an essential in there or whatever.

02:04:55   Like they were so weird.

02:04:57   Like I would love to be in the meeting,

02:04:58   like we're gonna have default names for the labels

02:05:00   and what should we call them?

02:05:01   - I just remember hot and essential.

02:05:02   - Yeah, no, exactly.

02:05:04   What's the difference?

02:05:05   We should go look that up right now.

02:05:07   - You should, dude.

02:05:08   I do forget that.

02:05:10   I get any other thing too with this new implementation

02:05:14   And tags to me are way more interesting.

02:05:16   I haven't used labels in years.

02:05:19   I anticipate using tags quite a bit.

02:05:22   But I don't think, I think they've built this

02:05:24   on top of labels.

02:05:25   And if on the converse, you're the type of person

02:05:28   who used labels and you wanna keep using labels

02:05:30   and you don't really wanna use tags per se,

02:05:32   you just wanna use the labels you always used,

02:05:35   it doesn't really set you back any.

02:05:37   I mean, I think a little bit in terms of,

02:05:39   the only thing I could think of is if you really wanna

02:05:42   just use it the way you always used it and you don't like the new the new way

02:05:46   you have to unlabel before you relabel to get rid of you know yeah because

02:05:54   otherwise you'll be adding yeah otherwise you're just adding so you have

02:05:57   some water the old hit one extra click to take off the old label when you want

02:06:02   to change it from hot to essential and the little words that little tool tip

02:06:06   of everything's trying to tell you what's going on like add label this it

02:06:09   make it clear that what you're going to do isn't what you thought. So here are the old

02:06:12   labels. Essential, hot, in progress, cool, personal, project one, project two. What the

02:06:18   hell is there in between hot and cool? Essential, hot and cool, like they could all mean the

02:06:22   same thing. Essential was orange, hot was red, in progress, purple, cool is like an

02:06:26   ice blue, personal was navy blue, project one green, and project two brown. This is

02:06:31   all based on my Mac emulator.

02:06:33   What did they even mean by hot? Hot like the boss wants this now. This is hot.

02:06:39   hot issue, or is it hot like sexy? Oh, man, that's hot.

02:06:43   Yeah, and the thing is, if you go to control panels labels, like I'm running system seven

02:06:47   in the simulator to look this up, but you could change the names of them. And you could

02:06:50   change the colors too. You click on the color, you can make them any color you want. And

02:06:53   it's like, what the hell do they care? And you could drive yourself crazy, because if

02:06:56   you decide to change label number one to be important, and you make it red, and you copy

02:07:02   that file to your friend's Mac, this is back in the system seven days, and their label

02:07:06   number one is purple and it's called trash, then suddenly your file comes over and it's

02:07:13   like, "Oh, find the file with the red label, but it's not red on my machine." All these

02:07:17   problems always existed in terms of who has the central index of what color and what label

02:07:21   and what word and all this other stuff. All they have is three bits inside a field inside

02:07:26   H of S plus and then a mapping of those, a local mapping of those two words. And now

02:07:31   they kind of have the same thing, but they also have this binary property list XML thing

02:07:35   that contains the list of labels, and what do they put in the list? A word and a number,

02:07:39   separated by a new line for some crazy-ass reason.

02:07:41   Yeah, I saw that, too. That was weird. That is really weird. I cannot—I sat there—and

02:07:47   that was one of those things, because, you know, that's like the exact sort of, like,

02:07:53   programming task that I can fully comprehend. I understand an XML file. I can—and you

02:07:59   said, like, I can't think of a reason why they would do this. And I said, I thought,

02:08:02   Well, there's a puzzle.

02:08:03   Let's think about this.

02:08:04   There's got to be a good reason.

02:08:06   And I sat there for like 10 minutes,

02:08:07   and I cannot think of why it's not a separate string

02:08:12   and integer.

02:08:14   It could be like cutting the ends off the roast,

02:08:16   where it's just like it's something that-- or not even

02:08:19   like that.

02:08:21   When you're writing a project and like,

02:08:23   oh, I've got to add this thing quickly,

02:08:24   and I'll change it later, and you don't,

02:08:26   and it just ends up shipping that way.

02:08:30   Not that you're gonna wanna have new lines

02:08:32   in your label name, but it's right there in front of you.

02:08:36   You have a way to store the number and the name.

02:08:39   It's sitting there, you're in a property list, right?

02:08:41   And they go with the new line.

02:08:43   - And it just sticks out when you're looking

02:08:47   at an XML file and you're just used to everything

02:08:51   being tagged and then all of a sudden

02:08:54   you see something new line separated like it's a whole--

02:08:56   - It looks all ugly in the dump.

02:08:57   So here's a theory I can think of is that

02:08:59   It might have to do with spotlight indexing.

02:09:02   Maybe the text parser that parses out--

02:09:04   because they want to spotlight index all these labels,

02:09:06   but they don't want to have separate extended attributes.

02:09:08   They want to have one extended attribute, I guess,

02:09:10   that you can pull in because it's like underscore KMD

02:09:14   label, the tag name.

02:09:15   They have those K constants that apply in spotlight.

02:09:18   You know what those mean when you do the advanced searches.

02:09:21   Every one of those has a constant.

02:09:22   It looks like a constant from the classic Mac days

02:09:24   with a leading lowercase K. And if you

02:09:27   were going to write a query, a spotlight query,

02:09:29   You could say where essentially file name contains this and date modified is this.

02:09:34   Each one of those things, file name, date modified, label, has a single symbolic name

02:09:38   that corresponds to where the thing is.

02:09:40   So all of the tags are in a single one of those.

02:09:42   That's why they're all in one big property list instead of having separate extended attributes.

02:09:45   So you can do where one of the labels is hot and one of the labels is like KMD label whatever

02:09:54   thing.

02:09:55   It will pull that whole property list out.

02:09:56   Maybe it's pulling that property list out

02:09:58   and parsing it as pulling out the text parts

02:10:02   and parsing it as free text as if it was number,

02:10:05   new line, name, new line.

02:10:07   And they couldn't use spaces because then if the names

02:10:09   probably could have spaces but they used new lines.

02:10:11   Like I'm just making stuff up here.

02:10:12   But there are semi-reasonable reasons

02:10:15   why they wanted to leverage the existing architecture

02:10:17   for simply indexing text content to files

02:10:20   and it makes it easier if they have them this way.

02:10:21   But it sure as hell looks weird.

02:10:23   And it's one of those decisions that's like,

02:10:24   Well, once you've done that, you are creating tons and tons of files with extended attributes

02:10:29   filled with this exact property list, and so you're forever doomed to have to support

02:10:33   that weird format and backward compatibility.

02:10:36   My only thought was that it was just some lazy programmer who one day, like you said,

02:10:40   maybe he thought he'd get back to it and fix it, but that it was just easier to just, he's

02:10:45   got the two values, it was easier to just concatenate the two strings together and separate

02:10:50   it with a new line because think in your head, will there ever be a new line in the actual

02:10:54   name, no. It probably, I'm almost certain it guards against it, even if you paste it in text that had a new line as the tag name, it almost certainly, I'll bet, strips that. So you're never going to get an actual new line there so you can do it and it was easier, you know.

02:11:11   Like it could have been the names weren't in there originally originally was just the numbers, right?

02:11:15   And then they said oh we need to put the names there too because we're not gonna have you know

02:11:18   The problem I just described where one person names at one thing. We're gonna put the names in there, too

02:11:21   Alright, we'll just throw it in with a new line and the thing and I can parse that decision talk about things

02:11:27   You're not gonna see a book written about it, you know, you're in that guy

02:11:30   Here's the here's the thing you didn't mention that jumped out at me about tags right in the keynote at WWDC is

02:11:39   why are they adding tags to files now? And to me, I think it's clearly driven by

02:11:48   iCloud and the sandbox, because now, only now with tags, can you easily group

02:11:57   related documents together, even if they're all from iCloud sandbox apps. So

02:12:06   So you could take a text edit app or a file and--

02:12:11   thinking of other sandbox apps-- preview

02:12:14   and give them the same tag.

02:12:17   And now in the Finder, they show up

02:12:19   in the same tag sidebar location.

02:12:22   Yeah, even if you go further in that,

02:12:24   I would say the whole fact that you

02:12:26   can have documents in the cloud, but you only

02:12:27   get one level of folders.

02:12:29   Now finally, you can have multiple levels of hierarchy.

02:12:31   You don't get to call them folders.

02:12:33   You get to call them labels.

02:12:34   you can slice and dice things into better because if you are trying to keep all your

02:12:38   documents like with the documents in the cloud and using applications that do that, just

02:12:41   having one level of folders eventually starts to get crazy. So now tags give you one more

02:12:46   organizational tool. And yes, of course, also across applications. But the thing about the

02:12:49   cross application things is that the only tool that can cross cut that thing is the

02:12:55   finder. Within the individual iOS or Mac sandbox iCloud documents and without applications,

02:13:01   You can't ask them to show you anything.

02:13:02   It's only the Finder and the Finder itself and an OpenSave dialog box that's not looking

02:13:09   at iCloud documents but is looking at your disk.

02:13:11   Those are the only things where you can say, "Show me all the things from the Jones project,"

02:13:15   and it will find them across all the applications.

02:13:17   And even on the Mac, I think it might try to hide them because they're in the iCloud

02:13:20   container things.

02:13:21   But if you're sufficiently resourceful, and maybe it exposes...

02:13:23   Do you know if it exposes that?

02:13:24   Like, you know where the documents really are in your Mac, where they're in the thing?

02:13:27   Yeah.

02:13:28   Because you go in a sidebar to the tags, and you click a tag that has some files to it.

02:13:35   And then you can go, it'll show you those files, and then you can control click on it

02:13:39   and say, "Show an enclosing folder."

02:13:42   And it's the crazy iCloud document container somewhere under your library folder, right?

02:13:45   Yeah, exactly.

02:13:46   So for example, text edit documents are users group or library/mobile documents/com~apple~textedit/documents.

02:14:02   I don't know why they use tildes instead of dots.

02:14:06   That doesn't make any sense. But all the apps are like that in the library/mobile documents folder.

02:14:11   That's where your iCloud sandboxes are.

02:14:14   But you can get there very easily through the finder just by going to the tag

02:14:19   Collection in the sidebar and then

02:14:23   Control clicking and say show in enclosing

02:14:26   Yeah

02:14:27   Or you just show the like there's the thing lets you see the the bottom bar and a finder window that shows you the path

02:14:31   With the little folders the arrows between them. Yeah. Yeah, does it show you that too? I don't know

02:14:37   there's a way to get it to display show show the path view path or whatever, but

02:14:42   Yeah, it's it's they haven't solved that problem of the siloed documents and tags tags give you one more tool

02:14:49   But it makes it I think it makes it all the more apparent like you're in these little islands when you're in the application

02:14:53   Only the finder could see them all and then there's no equivalent of the finder on iOS where you could see

02:14:57   Yeah, all the various pieces across all that

02:14:59   They still have to figure out what they're gonna do there

02:15:01   But it tags is like it was sitting there like they spent so many years

02:15:04   Building up to this and they implemented extended attributes and use them so extensively and all the other features

02:15:09   And it's like once you've got extended attributes, like that's the first thing everybody else,

02:15:12   all the third parties did with them.

02:15:13   Remember all the tagging apps that are out there?

02:15:15   I've had tons of them over the years.

02:15:16   So they would be like, "We don't need to implement this.

02:15:18   It's part of the OS.

02:15:19   You can attach arbitrary data to any file.

02:15:22   All we need is an application that can create the data and interpret it."

02:15:25   So tons of finder-like organization applications would say, "Here you go.

02:15:29   Use our application and you can apply tags to your files and organize your stuff according

02:15:33   to them."

02:15:34   And tags have advantages over folders because a file can only be in one folder according

02:15:37   because there are rules the way we do things, but you can apply multiple tags.

02:15:40   It's kind of the difference between Gmail and, you know, Apple Mail and why

02:15:44   they don't get along in terms of, you know, tag, you know. So it was right there

02:15:48   for them to do. It's kind of like tabs in the Finder. It's right there. Like tabs

02:15:51   are on the browsers. Apple knows how to make tabs. Why are there no tabs in the

02:15:55   Finder browser? Especially, you know, and again we could do a whole three-hour show

02:15:59   just on the Finder, but especially with the the fact that the OS X Finder is

02:16:06   is naturally a browser, not a, you know, it worked.

02:16:11   That's just how it clearly is meant to work,

02:16:14   not the old spatial thing.

02:16:17   - It's kind of half-heartedly a browser,

02:16:18   but it's like, yeah, if you're gonna do a browser,

02:16:20   we know that tabs are useful in browsers,

02:16:22   and it's like you didn't get around to it.

02:16:24   So they got around to tabs, they got around to tags.

02:16:27   - Tabs still aren't a standard cocoa thing, though, are they?

02:16:33   Like, there's no way, like, even though it seems

02:16:35   it's using the same tabs as Safari and Terminal. But actually, Terminal uses totally different

02:16:43   tabs still, even on just the look and feel of the tabs.

02:16:48   Well, yeah, they're never standardized. I mean, remember Toppy Tabs?

02:16:52   Yeah, Toppy Tabs.

02:16:55   Safari 4, briefly.

02:16:57   Right.

02:16:57   Like, you know, there's tabs across all applications. Apple has kind of decided

02:17:03   decided that they're vaguely, they're not metallic, they used to be rush metal, but

02:17:07   they're dark gray and they come down and they have little rounded corners and this little

02:17:11   plus sign to make new ones. But it's probably not a standard control because...

02:17:17   **Matt Stauffer** No, it's definitely not a standard control

02:17:18   because...

02:17:19   **Matt Stauffer** Well, I wonder if Apple shares the code, like

02:17:21   between their three Apple...

02:17:22   **Matt Stauffer** Well, here's one thing I noticed, is you pointed

02:17:24   out that the new Safari in Mavericks has a feature that it seems to have learned from

02:17:33   Chrome where as you're closing tabs, it won't change the width of the remaining tabs until

02:17:40   you're done closing them, which enables you to sit there and just click, click, click without

02:17:45   moving the mouse. But the Finder tabs don't do that. The Finder tabs act like it's like

02:17:50   they copied the old implementation from Safari,

02:17:53   where each time you close a tab, the remaining tabs

02:17:55   resize to fit the width.

02:17:57   So if they're sharing code, they shared the code

02:18:01   from the old Safari, not the new one.

02:18:03   And even in Safari, it only does that

02:18:05   until all the tabs to your right are gone.

02:18:07   And then it says, oh, it's safe for me to resize.

02:18:09   Right, because you don't get the benefit of the click, click,

02:18:12   click, click, click.

02:18:13   Right.

02:18:13   Whereas at Chrome, because partially due to the fact

02:18:17   that Chrome's closed box is on the right edge of the tab,

02:18:20   It will, even when you have no more tabs remaining

02:18:22   on your right side, it will still not resize the tab.

02:18:25   So you can click it again and close the tab

02:18:28   that you were over to begin with.

02:18:29   And then it will slide the other tabs

02:18:30   that are now to your left, and it will put the closed box,

02:18:32   like Chrome's implementation is still better.

02:18:34   Like they had more time to work this out.

02:18:36   So Apple copied it, and I can't think of a reason

02:18:39   why they wouldn't have copied that thing,

02:18:40   except for the fact that their closed boxes

02:18:42   are on the wrong side, and it may be more awkward.

02:18:44   Like Chrome will totally try to put a closed box

02:18:46   under your cursor for as long as it possibly reasonably can.

02:18:48   Whereas Safari, after you've closed all the tabs

02:18:51   to your right, it gives up trying to put a closed box

02:18:53   under your cursor, which is a minor thing

02:18:55   in the grand scheme of things,

02:18:56   because people use Command + W or whatever.

02:18:58   But it's a neat feature of Chrome

02:19:00   that they were wise to copy,

02:19:02   even if they copied it kind of not in part.

02:19:05   - Oh, I never noticed that before.

02:19:06   I just played with it.

02:19:07   So I see what you mean.

02:19:08   There's two different resizings of the tabs in Chrome.

02:19:12   There's one when you have finished closing

02:19:15   all the rightmost tabs.

02:19:17   Then an intermediate one where it'll resize the leftmost ones

02:19:22   just to put the next one's close box under your mouse.

02:19:29   And then when you're done completely

02:19:31   and move the mouse away, it'll resize to fill the window.

02:19:35   Yeah, and by the way, the same feature

02:19:36   is in Safari 6.1 on Mountain Lion.

02:19:39   Like, 6.1 is kind of like the Safari 7 for Mountain Lion

02:19:42   users.

02:19:43   Like, a lot of these things, even the power

02:19:44   everything that doesn't run the flash stuff and the plugins and everything, came back,

02:19:50   which is nice. They don't always do that. You don't always like, "Oh, well, you're running

02:19:54   Mountain Lion. You're not going to get the cool new features." They basically gave everyone

02:19:56   running Mountain Lion 75% of Safari 7, including these nice little UI things.

02:20:03   I always complain. One of the things I complain about in Chrome is the fact that the closed

02:20:06   boxes are on the right side of the tabs. I feel like because on the Mac, I know this

02:20:11   is like a Windows Mac thing, but on the Mac,

02:20:13   close has always been left.

02:20:16   And to me, a tab is close enough to being

02:20:19   like its own little docked window that it should--

02:20:23   a tab should be like a window, and the close

02:20:24   should be in the left.

02:20:25   And I've had people argue with me

02:20:27   that with the close on the left, then you

02:20:30   couldn't get this tap, tap, tap to close tabs.

02:20:34   But that doesn't--

02:20:35   It's harder.

02:20:36   Because you can see, watch when Chrome starts resizing the ones

02:20:38   to your left.

02:20:39   It's easier for it to put the next closed box

02:20:42   under your thing.

02:20:42   It doesn't have to slide everything way over.

02:20:44   Like, it's a little bit easier for it to work out.

02:20:45   Right.

02:20:46   But that's not a good reason to put the close on it, right?

02:20:50   I mean, I use Chrome so much, I don't mind it too much.

02:20:52   The thing that bothers me about Chrome

02:20:54   is the giant fav icons and the--

02:20:56   Yeah.

02:20:57   So I'm hoping-- I've been hoping for years it's

02:21:00   one of my little, like, annual things

02:21:02   that I hope to see at WWDC.

02:21:04   But I keep waiting for AppKit to get standard-- it's just,

02:21:08   you know, tabs.

02:21:09   And I feel like the tabs that they should take are Safaris.

02:21:12   I think Safaris are the best.

02:21:13   They're better than the Finders,

02:21:15   and they're way better than the ones in Terminal.

02:21:18   Terminal ones are just a little weird.

02:21:22   - Yeah, I mean, I just feel like the trend is away from tabs

02:21:24   even though we're all can't live without them

02:21:27   and they're adding them back to things on the Mac.

02:21:29   Like, I mean, I don't know.

02:21:30   I guess they added tabs to Safari and iOS.

02:21:33   - Right. - You know,

02:21:34   and they made the crazy new updated version of the tabs

02:21:36   where the progress bar is a little blue line

02:21:37   in the bottom of the tab, you know, in iOS 7.

02:21:39   Like, they're still experimenting.

02:21:42   It seems like they're still in the experimental phase

02:21:44   with tabs because, yeah, I don't know.

02:21:47   Like, they're a weird mix.

02:21:48   So many features that we like to use

02:21:50   are not used by regular people using their Macs,

02:21:53   but tabs are pretty universal.

02:21:56   Like, no matter how novice you are,

02:21:58   once you see how tabs work, people,

02:22:00   maybe it's because there's a relation to paper tabs

02:22:02   that used to exist way back in the day.

02:22:03   Like, they get it, they use them.

02:22:05   And it's not like a power user feature.

02:22:08   It's like super advanced.

02:22:09   People use tabs.

02:22:11   Everybody uses tabs.

02:22:12   So even though they make things much more complicated,

02:22:15   they make us lose track of where the hell things are,

02:22:16   and in the worst case, they make us not

02:22:18   know where the hell that sound is coming from,

02:22:20   because it's coming from one of the freaking tabs

02:22:22   that you can't find.

02:22:23   They get used.

02:22:23   Am I misremembering this from the last time

02:22:26   I tinkered with it?

02:22:26   But I think Chromebooks are just tabbed.

02:22:29   I don't even think they have Windows.

02:22:31   I think everything is-- I think it's the whole metaphor.

02:22:34   Chromebook, the Chromebook OS, Chrome OS is tabs. But if not, if not, it's clearly

02:22:41   how they intend people to use it. If you can have multiple windows, most of the

02:22:45   time you're just opening tabs. Yeah, I've seen a Chromebook once in real life and

02:22:48   I just realized I don't think I ever used the software. I think it just played

02:22:51   with the hardware because it was a Chromebook pixel. I know it's the show's

02:22:55   already been long and we could go forever on this, but quickly, what do you,

02:22:59   what do you think, do you think that that the next version of Mac OS X is going

02:23:04   to get a iOS 7, not that it would look like iOS 7, but iOS 7-esque or sized visual refresh.

02:23:15   I think it's probably due for one, if not in this release, then the next one.

02:23:20   What it needs more than a radical refresh of the look is they've got to finish the job

02:23:27   that they started with, like, you know, D iOS 6-ing everything, right?

02:23:31   Yeah.

02:23:32   Because they just scrape stuff off of the application.

02:23:34   need to go back to those applications. If you really care about these applications,

02:23:40   give each of those built-in apps a thorough redesign. And as part of that process, maybe

02:23:45   you come up with some new UI ideas for the whole OS. But a lot about OS X, again, it's

02:23:52   an older OS and it's gone through more changes. We're out of the iOS 6 level awkward phase.

02:24:00   We did that with brush metal and pinstripes and teal things and lozenges.

02:24:06   We did that in the drawers and everything.

02:24:08   And we came out the other side in Leopard with the unified single window appearance,

02:24:11   which still doesn't look bad.

02:24:13   It looks good and everything.

02:24:16   We had that time where it was like, have an original idea and take that idea to its logical

02:24:23   conclusion like they did with iOS 6 and say, "Okay, now it's time for a new idea."

02:24:27   And that reset was around 10.5.

02:24:28   So I don't know if we're due for, "Oh, you've got to change how the menu bar works.

02:24:32   You've got to change how all those standard window tile bars look, because the old one

02:24:35   doesn't look good anymore."

02:24:37   It's fine, right?

02:24:39   It could be tweaked in a subtle way, but what they do need to do is rethink all the applications

02:24:43   that have been through this terrible trauma of being made to look exactly like their iOS

02:24:47   6 counterparts and have not fully recovered for them, and finish the job of address game

02:24:51   center and all the other things that still look like they used to before, and make those

02:24:55   applications better.

02:24:58   They give so much attention to Safari,

02:24:59   'cause I pointed out in the review,

02:25:00   it's such an important application,

02:25:01   like the web browser, right?

02:25:03   But they continue to ship mail and reminders and notes,

02:25:07   and those applications are not best of breed, right?

02:25:10   They don't show Apple in a great light,

02:25:11   and especially even with the whole thing with mail

02:25:13   not working well with Gmail

02:25:15   because of the various changes there.

02:25:17   They're trying to make it better, but they screwed it up.

02:25:20   I don't know anyone who's ever used mail.

02:25:22   I would never use mail with Gmail.

02:25:24   I have no experience in any past versions.

02:25:26   Current, past, future, it's just a bad idea,

02:25:27   because they don't get along.

02:25:29   - Yeah, I do, and it's only,

02:25:32   I think it's almost because I'm nerdy enough,

02:25:36   and email nerdy enough, that I understand the way

02:25:42   that they don't match up metaphorically.

02:25:46   And so, because I understand it,

02:25:47   I purposefully work around it.

02:25:50   So I don't, I know, and I think this is one of the things

02:25:53   that people are running into with the Mavericks mail,

02:25:57   where it's like if you've turned off the all mail folder

02:26:02   to the IMAP interface in Gmail, as everybody who I know

02:26:06   who uses Gmail through IMAP has done,

02:26:08   so you don't get two of every email when you search for them,

02:26:13   then when you hit the Archive button,

02:26:14   things just disappear and reappear in your inbox and stuff.

02:26:17   So I just never hit Mails Archive.

02:26:19   I don't archive in mail.

02:26:20   I have--

02:26:21   But there's new bugs in Mavericks

02:26:23   where even if you follow the best practices,

02:26:25   either follow Google's guidelines of the old ones or Apple's with the new ones, you'll

02:26:28   get into a situation where you'll receive new mail and it will not appear even in your

02:26:32   inbox on the Mac, but it will appear in the web UI, regardless of whether you have all

02:26:36   mail off like the old way or all mail on like the new way.

02:26:39   Like it's just full of bugs and stuff.

02:26:41   That stuff reflects badly on Apple and makes the Mac look bad, and so it needs to be addressed.

02:26:45   And in the process of addressing those, you can have some new ideas about UI and you can

02:26:49   kind of use it.

02:26:50   Remember iTunes used to be like a leading indicator where they might possibly be thinking

02:26:53   about going in terms of UI.

02:26:55   And it never really was.

02:26:56   We never got the iTunes 7 scroll bars.

02:26:58   The scroll bars we got in, what was it, Lion or whatever,

02:27:00   they turned into the little thin graphite sort of lozenges.

02:27:04   Those didn't look like the iTunes one,

02:27:05   but iTunes was like, let's think about some things

02:27:07   that we can do there, right?

02:27:09   So I think the applications are a place

02:27:11   to experiment with like that.

02:27:12   And the OS is due for, I mean, you know,

02:27:15   10.5 was the big, you know, we ran up to 10.5

02:27:17   and did a reset, and now we're gonna run up to 10.10

02:27:20   and do a reset.

02:27:21   It's kind of about that time,

02:27:23   And it could totally use with one,

02:27:24   but I think it's more important.

02:27:25   I would be perfectly fine if they just really gave

02:27:28   the application some attention,

02:27:29   and then just put a nice subtle revision of all the UI

02:27:33   of just looking a little bit different,

02:27:34   'cause that's enough.

02:27:35   Like there's nothing, there's no equivalent

02:27:37   in the current version of OS X that is equivalent

02:27:41   to all of the skeuomorphic stuff that was in iOS 6.

02:27:43   It's not gaudy and embarrassing, you know what I mean?

02:27:45   Just look at a title bar of a standard Mac window.

02:27:48   - Right.

02:27:48   - You know, maybe the little lozenges

02:27:50   look a little bit dated, but we're not looking at,

02:27:51   you know, wood and felt and linen here.

02:27:54   - I've been wondering if,

02:27:56   if Lucida Grand, Grandi,

02:28:01   I don't even know how you pronounce it.

02:28:02   Lucida Grand is--

02:28:03   - Grande, like when you order from Starbucks?

02:28:05   - Yeah, Grande,

02:28:05   is gonna go, was gonna be, you know, shown the door once,

02:28:12   you know, the Mac is a mostly retina platform,

02:28:16   which I still don't think,

02:28:17   I think it's gonna be a while before it's,

02:28:18   Mac is mostly retina devices.

02:28:21   because I just don't think it looks that good as a real font.

02:28:25   I think it was a nice choice as a screen font

02:28:28   and it went rendered well on non-retina screens

02:28:30   better than most fonts do.

02:28:32   But there's a reason, like I've said before on the show,

02:28:35   there's a reason why you don't see people using Lucida Grande

02:28:39   in real documents in print design and stuff,

02:28:42   because it's not a great font, it isn't.

02:28:45   - Well, there's something to be said for using a font

02:28:47   that people wouldn't use in content

02:28:50   to distinguish the UI from the content.

02:28:52   Right, that is true.

02:28:53   And I've talked about this with a lot of people,

02:28:56   that there is something to me that's a little--

02:29:00   as a longtime Mac user, I've always seen the system font

02:29:03   that way, going all the way back to the Chicago,

02:29:06   and then what was the next one?

02:29:09   Charcoal.

02:29:10   What did you do?

02:29:11   Did you use charcoal, or did you revert to Chicago?

02:29:14   Remember, you used to have that option.

02:29:15   There was like, SP Sands in there, wasn't there?

02:29:18   Yeah.

02:29:19   Talk about things Apple would never do anymore.

02:29:21   You used to get a choice for your system font.

02:29:23   - Oh yeah, you could use BrushScript.

02:29:25   Remember that?

02:29:26   It's like, yeah, the theming days.

02:29:28   You know, I always went with,

02:29:29   when they changed the default from Chicago,

02:29:31   I said, "I'm just gonna go with it.

02:29:32   "I'm gonna go with what they picked."

02:29:33   - Even though I didn't like the lowercase R.

02:29:36   But I did that.

02:29:39   I went with it.

02:29:39   But it was always a font.

02:29:40   Chicago and Charcoal were always these sort of,

02:29:43   almost like a semi-bold font.

02:29:46   It was not bold enough to be bold,

02:29:48   but bolder than a regular font, but it made, you know,

02:29:52   it took up two pixels in a lot of places where instead of one, and it looked good on

02:29:56   those low-res screens. But there was always a very, very

02:30:00   visceral, to me, difference between the UI font

02:30:04   and the content fonts. Yeah, although it was made weird

02:30:08   by the fact that, like, so the reason Chicago looked the way it did is because

02:30:12   they had to gray out menu items in the original Mac, and you can't gray things out when you have a

02:30:16   black and white screen.

02:30:17   So they had to make every single letter big enough

02:30:19   so you could knock out every other pixel

02:30:21   in a checkerboard pattern and you could still read the words.

02:30:23   - Right. - Right?

02:30:24   And so that's fine.

02:30:25   And that also meant that they had to use Chicago

02:30:28   as like, for like long freeform text

02:30:30   where they wouldn't use Lucida Grande right now,

02:30:33   like a dialogue that explains stuff,

02:30:35   they would use that system font as well.

02:30:37   And you just did not want to read a paragraph of Chicago.

02:30:40   It's like it was never something that you would want to do.

02:30:42   It just looked awkward, but they had to do it

02:30:43   because what if you had to gray out that text or something?

02:30:45   You know, it just uses a system font.

02:30:47   And when they went with the new fonts like charcoal and stuff, they didn't need to do

02:30:50   that pixel thing anymore.

02:30:51   Like, they had grayscale, but they somehow felt like, well, a system font is something

02:30:56   that looks big and chunky.

02:30:57   And so those fonts were also big and chunky, and like Lucida is like moving—it's not

02:31:02   as thin as Helvetica, but you know, it's finally shedding that kind of "I've got big fat forearms"

02:31:07   kind of look of the fonts, right?

02:31:09   It doesn't look like that.

02:31:10   It looks like I'm kind of svelte and thin, but I'm also kind of like bold and I look

02:31:14   like a label.

02:31:15   labeling something. I'm not a headline, I'm not body text, I'm a UI font. So I don't mind

02:31:21   it that much, and I don't know what they would replace it with. I fear a new replacement.

02:31:27   That seems too wimpy for me for a Mac. It seems right for a handheld, especially with

02:31:31   iOS 7, it totally fits there with that aesthetic, but I feel like the Mac should be beefier.

02:31:36   I'm glad that it's still there. I'm glad that it still has a system font. I thought it was

02:31:42   interesting you pointed out in your review that they actually are new. This is what I

02:31:46   was getting at is that they actually have like new Lucida Grande font files in Mavericks

02:31:52   that are retina optimized. And I think that some of the features in there, there's like

02:31:57   kerning pairs and stuff like that which they actually Lucida Grande never had before.

02:32:06   It was...

02:32:07   Yeah. Well, the whole texture system got a revision to much better handle like ligatures

02:32:11   and all the other stuff, you know, in regular text stuff.

02:32:13   And, but, but above and beyond that, which I would have liked to put a section in

02:32:16   the review about that, but I didn't know enough about the details about how they

02:32:19   changed the tech system and it's like, you know, I don't know how much people

02:32:22   would care, but changing the system font, like above and beyond the changes of

02:32:25   Texas, they made a special new variant of the font.

02:32:29   Like if you pick Lucida Grande in the, as we pronounce this font name, seven

02:32:33   different ways in the same podcast.

02:32:34   If you pick that font and text edit and type with it, you are not typing with

02:32:37   the same one they use to draw the menus.

02:32:39   Because at least as of WWDC, and I think this is still the case,

02:32:43   they have a specially tweaked version for when

02:32:45   Apple uses it in the UI.

02:32:47   In fact, I think it used to actually show up

02:32:49   in the font picker with some weird name.

02:32:51   So it's like two different things.

02:32:53   And I think that's appropriate, because the application

02:32:56   of a font as your UI thing, even if you found exactly the font

02:32:59   you wanted, you always want to just do,

02:33:01   well, I'm going to tweak it in ways that only makes sense when

02:33:04   it's like a menu bar and a menu item.

02:33:05   But you would not want to write it

02:33:07   if you're using a page layout program

02:33:09   in this particular font.

02:33:11   - Right.

02:33:12   Yeah, like you said, they're labels, you know?

02:33:14   And a label font is different than a reading font.

02:33:17   - Did you follow that link?

02:33:18   Like one guy, after I posted my review,

02:33:19   one guy actually figured out what the differences were

02:33:22   and posted this big long blog post.

02:33:23   Go find that part of my review and click on like the,

02:33:26   whatever that means, text.

02:33:28   Because I didn't know, like, you know,

02:33:29   and I asked Apple, I didn't know what it meant

02:33:31   and I asked Apple, like, I know you changed the font

02:33:33   and you said it's optimized for rendering display.

02:33:35   Like what does that mean?

02:33:35   And it's like, well, it means they didn't give me any specific deal.

02:33:40   So here's this guy who said, OK, I'm going to pull up the fonts in my editor.

02:33:43   And he shows exactly how they changed the letter forms for this thing

02:33:46   versus the old one.

02:33:48   All right, I'm going to link it up.

02:33:50   Oh, whatever that means.

02:33:51   There we go.

02:33:52   I mean, look at that.

02:33:53   Some of the changes-- like the guy said, some of the changes

02:33:55   make sense and see why they do it.

02:33:56   Other changes, it's like, was that a mistake?

02:33:58   Or did they just forget to change it?

02:33:59   It's weird.

02:34:00   I saw the Stephen Cole's post on the typographic guy, but I did not see this.

02:34:08   Yeah, here we go.

02:34:09   Great.

02:34:10   I love this guy.

02:34:12   All right.

02:34:14   Let's call it a show.

02:34:15   Let's get to bed.

02:34:16   JAYLEE MUSIAL Yeah, Jeez.

02:34:17   I don't have the last time even.

02:34:18   DAVE SMITH John Siracusa, thank you so much.

02:34:21   People can go.

02:34:22   They can read your review.

02:34:23   I mean, I can't believe if you haven't, shame on you if you haven't already read it, but

02:34:26   it's at Ars Technica.

02:34:29   Just type in Ars Technica Mavericks review in your local Google.

02:34:33   Anyway, you'll get to it.

02:34:34   I always like to be able to type my last name in Mavericks.

02:34:38   Type Syracuse in Mavericks.

02:34:39   I want my result to be the top one.

02:34:41   Sometimes it isn't, but yeah.

02:34:42   Oh, yeah.

02:34:43   How could that not be the top result?

02:34:44   Yeah.

02:34:45   I'll eat my hat off that side.

02:34:46   I see SEO, man.

02:34:47   SEO.

02:34:48   Syracuse in Maverick.

02:34:49   Mavericks.

02:34:50   That's what I've always called you in my mind.

02:34:53   Maverick.

02:34:54   Yeah, it's the first hit.

02:34:55   All right.

02:34:56   But anyway, you can find it.

02:34:57   It's off the front page of ours by this point.

02:34:59   That's how old it is.

02:35:00   - Yeah, but it's on the first page of our hearts.