The Talk Show

86: ‘Diddling Your Feeds’ With Dave Wiskus


00:00:00   You've got a bigger role on the show. I don't, we've never really talked about it,

00:00:03   but you now have significantly, I mean, second to me, maybe even more than me, bigger role on the

00:00:09   show. I got to tell you the, the editing on your show lately has been outstanding.

00:00:14   So Dave Whiskus now does the editing of the show. I don't, we actually were just talking about this

00:00:20   the other day. I've actually never listened to a complete episode of the talk show. I don't think

00:00:25   think I have either. Well, when I'm doing the edit, sometimes

00:00:29   I'm just looking for, you know, where things overlap. So I mean,

00:00:33   I've listened to the whole thing. But when I'm doing like

00:00:34   the editing part, I'm just looking for it's it's kind of

00:00:37   like, looking at the matrix. How long does it take you to edit an

00:00:40   episode of the talk show? Like a two hour episode will take about

00:00:45   two hours in real time. Yeah, about Yeah. I think most people

00:00:51   seem to say it takes usually about 1.5 x and Marco

00:00:55   it seems to say it takes him around three hours for an ATP.

00:00:58   Well, that's if the show is more than two people,

00:01:02   a two person show is pretty easy to edit because things don't, you don't,

00:01:05   you don't ever run into a situation where three people are trying to talk at the

00:01:08   same time. Right. Yeah. That's it. Probably the biggest problem, right?

00:01:12   Is when you have, cause you're,

00:01:13   you're unprofessional always has three people because it's you and Jamie and a

00:01:17   guest, at least my guest. Yeah.

00:01:19   And so I pretty much have to listen to the show of like every second of the

00:01:22   audio to make sure that things are right. And it's sometimes people will monologue

00:01:26   a little bit and that gives me a chance to skip ahead a couple of seconds.

00:01:30   Cause it's not like I'm listening to make sure that they're, I mean,

00:01:33   I was there, I know what they said. So I don't have to worry about content.

00:01:36   I'm more listening for audio and when things overlap and making sure there's not

00:01:39   weird background noise and stuff like that.

00:01:41   And cross talk is not, is, is a big problem with three people. Yeah. And it's,

00:01:46   it's, you know, some,

00:01:47   one person will stop talking and then the other two might go to say something

00:01:50   you get that that handshake thing of oh no sorry go ahead no you go ahead it's

00:01:54   weird I'm I'm in a weird position that I am well I'm not on it I don't listen to

00:02:00   that many podcasts I'm trying to listen to more but my percentage of my average

00:02:06   week that I'm recording a podcast is pretty close to the percentage of a week

00:02:09   that I listen to podcasts so I'm like all very very close to being you know

00:02:16   recording as many podcasts as I listen to at least time wise because I can listen to more than I

00:02:21   record because you can listen at like 1.5x. And whenever I'm on a show, especially not this show,

00:02:27   but like a special guest on some other show like with, you know, like with Renee and Guy on debug,

00:02:33   like we were a couple weeks ago. When we're recording, the crosstalk always

00:02:40   gets to me. And I think, "Oh, that was horrible. I tried to say something." And clearly it was like

00:02:46   the second or so of latency with Skype and somebody else had already started talking

00:02:50   and it is very difficult to autocorre- or to for the guests to autocorrect that like you would in

00:02:57   real life if we were recording around the table you can make eye contact like hey I've raised your

00:03:02   finger I've got a point to make um but once it starts on a Skype recorded show it seems like

00:03:07   everybody wants to be polite and stop but then that's you know what I mean yeah and it seems

00:03:14   Seems like this could be solved with software. Either, I guess there's an argument to be

00:03:17   made for if everybody just does Skype video, then you're looking at each other. But even

00:03:22   that doesn't quite cover it. You need like a, I guess you could, you could do a thing

00:03:26   where somebody clicks a button and they raise their hand like WebEx at this.

00:03:29   But you're not, you're not really looking at each other with the webcam. You're looking

00:03:31   at the camera and everybody who looks at your video feed sees you the same way as opposed

00:03:37   to, you know, if you're literally around the table and you're talking, I can specifically

00:03:43   point to you and be like you know I've got some dad to this yeah it's never

00:03:48   gonna be the same as it is sitting around a table yeah and it always shows

00:03:51   too because I know I remember thinking it was a strikingly good podcast was the

00:03:59   episode of debug I think it was debug I have the guy and Renee have so many

00:04:03   goddamn shows but it was the one that they were they recorded it the day after

00:04:07   the WWDC keynote or maybe it was the day of I don't know but it was they but they

00:04:12   went to Macworld's office and used borrowed Macworld's podcast studio.

00:04:18   And they had so many guests.

00:04:20   They had like, I don't know, there's like six or seven people.

00:04:22   I thought, "This is going to be a mess," even though it was a bunch of really smart people.

00:04:28   Ryan...

00:04:29   Oh, Ryan Nielsen.

00:04:30   Ryan Nielsen was on, Drance was on.

00:04:35   More than that, I forget how many.

00:04:36   But it was great.

00:04:37   And I just thought, "This is going to be crazy.

00:04:38   They're going to be cross-talking all over each other."

00:04:40   because they were in the same room, it was actually remarkably, uh,

00:04:45   well-organized,

00:04:46   uh, modified by the fact that guy and Renee and then Ryan and grants are just

00:04:51   the nicest people and nobody's going to try to be a jerk in that room. Right.

00:04:55   So you edit the podcast now you're, you're doing the editing for the talk show.

00:04:59   Um, how's that going? I mean, it's, it's editing. I kind of like it.

00:05:05   It forces me to listen to the show and it forces me to listen to the show in a

00:05:07   different way. Like you, I don't spend a ton of time listening to podcasts. And it's

00:05:11   not that I don't want to, it's that I don't have a commute. So I don't have like

00:05:14   that time every day where I, that would be my habit. So having, having somebody

00:05:19   else's show to edit, because I've, you know, I edit unprofessional, I've done that for

00:05:22   almost two years. I edit the TV show, the thing that I do with Renee. But that's,

00:05:26   like, I was there during recording, so it's not the same kind of listening. So

00:05:30   it's interesting to listen and try to make editorial choices while it goes,

00:05:34   rather than like having a list in my head of things I just need to knock out

00:05:37   and then the other thing you're doing should we talk about the standard we can

00:05:42   yeah I mean it's weird like it's not a secret but we haven't really talked

00:05:45   about it is you're also handling the sponsorships for the show like when

00:05:49   people want to sponsor this show they're really they're gonna be getting in

00:05:52   contact with you right but it's like it's weird it's we're sort of maybe it's

00:05:58   probably all my fault where the transition the transition from mule to

00:06:01   hosting an Undaring Fireball was sort of one weird thing at a time and now it's

00:06:07   like we're up off the air and it's working and nobody's complaining at all

00:06:11   I don't think we've had any complaints so it seems like the feed keeps working

00:06:15   you know SoundCloud for hosting has worked just fine nobody really seems to

00:06:20   have missed a beat. The download numbers are completely on par with where they

00:06:25   were. I'll say this about editing it's forced me to really evaluate audio

00:06:30   quality because you know your people more people listen to your show than listen to my show and so suddenly I have to care about

00:06:35   How well encoded an mp3 is I've changed my workflow there

00:06:39   Why do you why do you use mp3 instead of AAC

00:06:44   You know, I I don't know I never really thought about it

00:06:48   I my assumption is that mp3 is gonna be the thing that the most people would be able to play

00:06:52   Yeah, that's what I would think too. That's why I've always gone with that

00:06:56   I actually I guess I didn't choose with mule that when I was with mule that was

00:07:01   I just sent them audio and then the podcast went up and there was no choice, but they but they you know

00:07:07   the show's been mp3

00:07:09   as long as I can remember I

00:07:11   Think ATP though. It's a AC that wouldn't surprise me. That sounds like a Marco thing to do. Yeah

00:07:17   It seems like something I would do too. I don't know

00:07:19   I would be very surprised if the percentage of people who listen to the talk show

00:07:22   Who would have a problem if I switched from mp3 to AAC if that was more than 1%?

00:07:29   Well, we could certainly try it. What's the point? I kind of feel like mp3 is the one that's also

00:07:36   Going to be most likely to be listening listenable to 100 years from now

00:07:41   Well mp3 is like its own brand people know what an mp3 is even non computer people know what an mp3 is

00:07:48   Yeah, AAC might have some technical, you know

00:07:52   improvements. We're at the same--

00:07:54   and this is the sort of stupid thing we used to argue about 10 years ago.

00:07:57   We're at the same bit rate.

00:07:59   You can fit a couple--

00:08:00   20% more songs.

00:08:02   But now it's like nobody cares about that.

00:08:05   That was like the whole point was that at a certain point

00:08:07   when the iPod switched from MP3 to AR or added AAC support

00:08:12   and the iTunes store was using AAC, they went from like--

00:08:17   5 gigabytes was what you needed for 1,000 songs to 4 gigabytes

00:08:21   because the same quality by somebody's, you know,

00:08:25   clearly subjective measurement, you know,

00:08:28   you could have the same quality of audio

00:08:30   and save 20% on storage.

00:08:33   - It might matter a little bit more

00:08:34   because a podcast is a lot longer than a song

00:08:38   and people are downloading these things nowadays

00:08:40   mostly over the air.

00:08:41   - Right, and people want to, in a lot of cases,

00:08:44   download them over cellular, right?

00:08:46   It's like all the podcast clients have to negotiate

00:08:49   sort of tricky set of, you know, preferences and manual controls

00:08:56   so that you're not downloading over cellular without knowing

00:09:00   that you're doing it because you could blow right through a data

00:09:02   cap easily.

00:09:03   Yeah, and that would be that'd be a rude awakening to find out

00:09:07   that you've run out of data and it's all, you know, right

00:09:09   overcast. Right. And you know, and you go overseas or something

00:09:13   like that. And the data cap might be a expensive and be very

00:09:16   small, right? Like 50 bucks for 250 megabytes. Well, that might

00:09:19   be the whole you know you eat you know one episode of the show might be 250 megabytes

00:09:25   yeah that would kill me every time but you want to enable it because some people do want

00:09:30   that some people might have if you have an 8 gigabyte verizon monthly plan you might

00:09:35   want to download your you know you just you know you really might there are some people

00:09:39   who really do want the iphone to just treat wi-fi and cellular identically yeah i've i've

00:09:45   never when i'm at home come anywhere near hitting the cap on my data plan but when i

00:09:49   I travel, I've got Verizon and it does that thing after 100 megs or something like that,

00:09:56   or one, I forget what it is. It charges you another $25. If I'm gone for two weeks, I've

00:10:02   spent like $200, $300 on data.

00:10:04   Yeah, I spent a lot when I travel. Although I don't think I spent that much when I was

00:10:10   in Ireland.

00:10:11   Well, because we were at the hotel the whole time and there was always Wi-Fi.

00:10:15   Yeah, maybe that was it. Although now that I mentioned this to you, and now I'm making a note

00:10:20   to myself, I don't think I did the thing I was supposed to do, which was, I do this every time,

00:10:28   is I go to Verizon before I go over out of the country, and I add to my plan, the 250 megabytes

00:10:38   for 20 bucks thing for international data. But then you're like a month later, when your next

00:10:44   bill comes you've got to go on and turn it off otherwise you're paying for it

00:10:47   every month yeah and I may or may not have just paid for it in May and June I

00:10:51   just got my bill a few days ago and I saw that I was still on there from April

00:10:56   or whenever we were there damn because it's funny because you used to I know

00:11:01   last year at all I did the thing ever do the thing where you get the temporary

00:11:04   SIM card mm-hmm because you go to the Amsterdam - right what do you do when

00:11:10   you go over there do you do the SIM card thing or do you just pay Verizon when I

00:11:13   living there what I did was I went to the T-Mobile store and it's like 10 euros or something

00:11:18   for one gig of data and that ends up being pretty cheap and you can run on a gig for

00:11:24   about a month of just normal daily like checking Twitter and stuff like that. So I used a T-Mobile

00:11:31   sim when I was over there for a longer term. If it's just going to be a week or something,

00:11:35   I'll stick with Verizon and deal with the ridiculous data charges.

00:11:39   Yeah, the iMessage, the way that iMessage bridges SMS though is it gets screwy when

00:11:45   you change your phone number with which is implicit with putting a temporary SIM card

00:11:50   in. Right, suddenly those messages that should be going to your phone number are now going

00:11:55   who knows where. Right, and you might be sending messages from a phone number that you don't

00:12:00   want people to ever send to again in the future. And right and you can there's you know, you

00:12:06   usually when I'm sending to somebody who I know has iMessage, I prefer to send, address

00:12:12   it to their email address rather than their phone number, because I feel like it's more

00:12:15   permanent. But I don't know, I just remember that the year before at OOL, I ran into all

00:12:22   sorts of… it was great price-wise, getting a temporary SIM card. It was like more data

00:12:27   than I could use while I was in Ireland for a very, very reasonable price, but it was

00:12:32   very confusing iMessage-wise.

00:12:33   wise. It's a, it's a big hassle. My, when I was living over in Amsterdam, my, uh,

00:12:37   my nightly ritual, my routine was that when I get home, I would pop the SIM out,

00:12:42   put my old SIM in and give it five minutes to see if any messages came in or if I

00:12:46   got any voicemails and then swap them back. I don't know.

00:12:49   I don't know what to suggest to Apple because it's such a weird edge case and I

00:12:52   don't want to suggest, I,

00:12:53   but I want somehow to be able to tell the iPhone use this SIM card only for

00:12:58   data, you know, and then just keep using my number. Yeah. Like,

00:13:02   Like, this is not a phone number, just use this SIM card for data.

00:13:06   Like, it's somehow, that's the edge case where the way that we as a technical culture have conflated

00:13:13   the legacy telephone network where you have this unique worldwide unique phone number with

00:13:21   "just give me internet", which is really all I want. I have no desire whatsoever, zero ever,

00:13:28   to use the actual phone or text messaging with a temporary SIM card.

00:13:32   All I want is IP networking and there's,

00:13:36   but there's no way to tell the iPhone that it seems like,

00:13:38   I don't know if this is iOS seven, iOS eight, but lately when I,

00:13:42   when I have to do something like that, it still says my phone number.

00:13:46   So I don't know if maybe they've changed it to where the phone number can

00:13:50   linger. Even if you get rid of your cell,

00:13:51   how does it work with the iPad? When you have a cellular iPad,

00:13:55   You do have a phone number like and it says it like when you go into your settings to deal with you know

00:14:00   Whichever carrier it is that you have it tells you a phone. Yeah, your SIM card for an iPad has a phone number

00:14:05   But I don't think you can ever

00:14:07   Receive text messages at that number. No, I mean, I can't imagine I that's probably just like a

00:14:13   like a I

00:14:15   Don't know a function of it being a SIM card. So I don't know. I guess it's not that confusing

00:14:20   I guess so I guess what I want is a way to tell an iPhone to go into iPad mode

00:14:24   and treat this use this SIM card only for data there's also an argument to be

00:14:31   made for give me two sim slots yeah but that's confusing though because I don't

00:14:35   want people sending me text messages while I'm out of the country you know

00:14:39   it's because it's you I don't know it's not that much money but it's you know I

00:14:43   know it's annoying if somebody who actually has like an Android phone sends

00:14:46   you a text because they don't know you're out of the country and you paid

00:14:48   two dollars just to receive it that's what you get for talking to those people

00:14:51   anyway anyway back to the the meta talk about the show so so one reason I've

00:14:57   never come up you know that you're now selling this the show the sponsorships

00:15:03   for this show and your show and Brent's and and Chris Parris's show I've never

00:15:10   had reason to bring it up is that this shows sponsorships have been sold out

00:15:13   for a while and they're still sold out I think they're like we're recording right

00:15:17   now on June 30 and they're sold out through August right yeah though and not

00:15:22   there's nothing open until the last week of August so there's been no reason to

00:15:26   publicize it but for anybody who's curious if you're out there you listen

00:15:30   I've never had to bring this up before because it's like the shows you know

00:15:33   been lucky enough that it's been sold out and we have so many repeat sponsors

00:15:37   who keep buying up spots but anybody who's ever been curious if you have like

00:15:42   a product or something you thought maybe I should sponsor the talk show you can

00:15:46   go to standard. That's what we're calling it standard.fm is

00:15:52   the website. Yeah, go to standard.fm and go from there.

00:15:56   And then you can figure out how to sponsor the show. Yeah, it's

00:15:59   pretty much just ends with people emailing me. Not a podcast

00:16:02   network. No, no, we're very careful about that. And there's

00:16:06   a I think there's so much discussion going into this about

00:16:09   how can we do this without being another podcast? Now, right?

00:16:12   It's just a way to it's like the one aspect of a podcast

00:16:16   network that we wanted, which is that it's way less work for one person to sell sponsorships

00:16:24   for multiple shows than it is for each show to book their own sponsorships.

00:16:28   But really what it came down to is I realized with me having to sell my own spots for Unprofessional,

00:16:35   it just made sense.

00:16:36   And you were going to be leaving Mule and everybody had this one problem.

00:16:42   All of us that are part of this network, we all had the same problem.

00:16:43   It's like well, you know what if I'm doing it for mine

00:16:45   Would it be easier? It probably would be easier if I if I could go to sponsors and say well, you know

00:16:51   We're we're a group and maybe we could make other things happen. Yeah, it's just a lot

00:16:55   I don't know some it's one of those things where that a little bit of collectivism saves a lot of work

00:17:00   yeah, and I mean there's a

00:17:02   sort of tangible benefit to Q branch to where I if if Brent is

00:17:07   Working on code and not worrying about how he's gonna sell sponsorship for his podcast or his website. Then that's an upside for us

00:17:14   I never thought of that

00:17:17   Let me take that moment and thank our first sponsor

00:17:21   It's our good friends speaking of repeat sponsors are good friends at Warby Parker

00:17:26   Warby Parker was founded with a rebellious spirit and a lofty objective to create boutique quality

00:17:34   classically crafted eyewear at a revolutionary price point. That's what they said. I say

00:17:39   go to Warby Parker and you can get really cool eyeglasses at way less than what you

00:17:43   would pay at most retail eye boutique places. And at the cheap eye boutique places you're

00:17:51   not going to get glasses that look as cool as Warby Parkers. It's that simple really.

00:17:58   They should not cost as much as an iPhone. Prescription glasses at Warby Parker start

00:18:02   at 95 bucks, including the prescription lenses. They have a titanium collection that starts

00:18:08   at 145. Now if you've gone shopping for eyeglasses recently, you know those prices are way, way

00:18:13   less than that. They don't jerk you around with upsells on all the stuff you'd want anyway,

00:18:19   like anti-reflective anti-glare coating. That just comes because who doesn't want that?

00:18:23   Who wants glare and reflections on their glasses? Can I have the easily scratched lenses? Give

00:18:30   me the glasses that are made out of that plastic that they made the first iPad

00:18:33   Nanos out of where if you look at it funny they get scratched no of course

00:18:38   not you want all the good stuff and this is the thing and I you guys have heard

00:18:44   this before but it really works you think well wait I do care about what my

00:18:47   glasses look like I care because they're gonna be right on my face I don't know

00:18:51   how can I buy these things over the internet and get a pair of glasses that

00:18:56   are gonna look good on me because you know you might see a pair on the web

00:18:59   page think well that looks cool but you don't know if it looks good on you well

00:19:02   they've got a couple of things they've got like a webcam type thing where you

00:19:06   can and it works pretty amazingly well where you just snap a picture of

00:19:10   yourself in front of the webcam and then they they measure the stuff like your

00:19:14   your nose and your eye distance and yeah and you pick a pair of glasses and they

00:19:19   like you know impose them over your face but the other thing they have and this

00:19:23   is the bigger deal is that they have this try at home thing you pick five

00:19:27   pairs that you like. They send them to you without the prescription lenses or

00:19:33   anything. You get a nice little box, open it up, there they are. There's your five

00:19:37   glasses. You can take them out, try them on, compare them against each other.

00:19:41   Already with a label to ship it right back to them. If you like one of them, you

00:19:45   can just order right there. Say this is the one I like, give me this one, then

00:19:48   they send it to you. You put the five samples back in, box it up, there's

00:19:52   already a label, send it right back to them. Couldn't be easier. We just did it

00:19:56   here my wife just got a pair of sunglasses from Warby Parker everything

00:20:00   it was exactly as described she got five pairs in a box she picked the one she

00:20:07   liked the most and like literally a couple days later there they are with

00:20:11   her prescription lenses couldn't be easier really really happy and if

00:20:15   anything she's pickier than I am about buying stuff like that it's a pretty

00:20:18   brilliant setup yeah it really is and and I think it's no surprise that so

00:20:24   many people I know so many people who have glasses from them and I've never

00:20:27   heard anybody who said boy the you know I kind of regret it everybody who's

00:20:30   really really happy with it so where do you go to find out more easy warby

00:20:33   parker.com slash the talk show warby parker.com slash the talk show

00:20:40   recommend them very highly go check them out do those work with Google Glass you

00:20:46   know there I don't think they do yet but you joke they were mentioned though at

00:20:50   some point like a year ago they were mentioned as a partner that was helping to

00:20:54   prettify you know stylize google glass i don't know if that fell through or if it's still coming

00:21:01   well there was though last week they keyed i figured problem to solve who was it uh it's some

00:21:06   fashion brand that i don't i can't recall off the top of my head that um that did release a bunch of

00:21:16   designer frames for google glass

00:21:21   i can't remember diane something

00:21:24   diane

00:21:25   uh... uh...

00:21:26   so fastenberg yes some like that it's that's close enough uh...

00:21:32   and that you know they just look

00:21:34   really really like

00:21:36   google has everything wrong with is nothing you can do about it right now i

00:21:40   mean when you have like that

00:21:41   two inch by one inch battery pack behind your right ear

00:21:46   and others there's just not much you can do with it

00:21:48   it looks like you're in the last or you have a big of the hearing problem i

00:21:51   guess that

00:21:53   uh... you know i i would argue that i hope that google glass always looks like

00:21:56   google glass so i can spot it

00:21:59   now you know what that's uh... it's a complicated and i've stopped about this

00:22:02   with people on the show before where let's face it though that's not going

00:22:05   to happen

00:22:06   right like like it

00:22:08   it just in terms of

00:22:11   being a technical demo

00:22:12   google glass is

00:22:14   is, you know, in the grand scheme of technology, it is, you know, it's amazing. It's like jet,

00:22:18   you know, jet packs and flying cars. It's something you've always thought about as a

00:22:22   kid is you could put a heads up display in front of your eyes in real life. And it's, you know,

00:22:28   in the grand scheme of things, pretty small. In real world practical use, it's nowhere near small

00:22:33   enough to be unnoticeable. But if that's where we are today in 2014, or where we were in 2012,

00:22:39   I guess when glass came out, you know, I don't think it's gonna be shocking if ten years from now

00:22:44   You can make a pair of Google Glass that doesn't look different from a pair of regular eyeglasses

00:22:49   Well, I'm sure you know, I mean look at how

00:22:53   How some how much smaller cameras have gotten I mean the camera?

00:22:57   Seems like it's probably the easier part to make indistinguishable to somehow hide in the frame of the glasses

00:23:06   Yeah, I think really it comes down to the battery because like even the heads up the display part

00:23:11   there's other things they can do to

00:23:13   Either build that into your your eyeglass lens or I build it into the frame

00:23:18   So like the like what they do in cars for the for the HUD. Yeah

00:23:22   Weird projection something. Yeah, I agree. The battery is probably a bigger

00:23:26   Bigger challenge and the display part, I don't know somehow they'll figure out a way to make it so that it's it's

00:23:33   integrated in the lens as opposed to a

00:23:36   Weird thing sticking out over the land and you know, it's gonna be a weird thing when you don't know whether people are

00:23:43   Recording you or not. I mean that we're I mean that but that's a I I'm I think you're I think it's a foolish

00:23:50   Just think that we're not gonna have to deal with that in our lifetimes. I mean, it's agreed clearly coming

00:23:55   Is it is it maybe that?

00:23:58   We're old fuddy-duddies and we came from an era before this and it's gonna be just like I don't know the CCTV camera at

00:24:05   the gas station where we don't think about that we don't feel like that's

00:24:08   invasion of privacy maybe a kid born today by the time they're old enough

00:24:13   they're never going to think of something like Google Glass as being

00:24:15   invasive yeah I think it's those yeah I think it's something like that where it

00:24:21   it just becomes part of the world around you and you accept you have to accept it

00:24:28   because you don't have a choice you know I think that if you went back 30 or 40

00:24:32   years and told people about a world where everybody can send and receive

00:24:36   phone calls anywhere they are at any point at dinner in their car anywhere

00:24:44   you can just always be reached your phone is can ring at any time and you

00:24:47   can always call someone at any time and that you know you'll go out to dinner

00:24:50   and there'll be people talking on the phone at tables near you they would say

00:24:54   that sounds I would think that they would have a similar reaction to the way

00:24:58   that like I feel about people being able to record me at any time yeah yeah

00:25:04   probably I think you know if a version of me that would have been my age now

00:25:10   then would probably have an anxiety attack at the thought of that yeah it's

00:25:14   you know it's unappealing and I said but I'm a person who thinks it's relatively

00:25:18   unappealing to get phone calls at any time you know I mean I tend to not

00:25:22   answer my phone usually so and I don't get that many phone calls period anyway

00:25:27   You're not a phone person.

00:25:29   No, not really.

00:25:31   And even someone who I want to talk to, like my dad calls me, and I like to talk to my

00:25:34   dad a couple times a week and talk about baseball or whatever, but if I'm out, if I'm waiting

00:25:40   in line at the supermarket to pay and my dad calls me, I'll just send it right to voicemail

00:25:46   and call him when I get home.

00:25:48   I think it's crazy when people do things like pick up the phone for something that's not

00:25:52   immediate.

00:25:53   You know

00:25:55   Like if you know you're if you get a call from your kids school

00:25:58   Well, you want to answer that right away because who knows maybe it's an emergency

00:26:01   But if it's you know, just my dad calling I mean, why would I do take that phone call in the supermarket?

00:26:05   It's the one that kills me is the people who will answer the phone when they're in the passenger seat of a car. I

00:26:10   Don't know if I've ever seen that. Oh, it's it's just rude because if you're the driver

00:26:16   You're you're now trapped in a situation where you're you're somebody you chauffeur and you're listening to one half of a conversation

00:26:21   Yeah, I see what you mean. Yeah, that is weird. Yeah, or like, you know, people are out to

00:26:26   You know

00:26:27   It's like a table for four at a restaurant and somebody just answers like a random phone call and starts talking

00:26:33   It just seems very strange to me

00:26:35   Yeah, but you'll you'll watch a baseball game at dinner

00:26:37   Yeah, but I don't turn the volume up

00:26:40   You don't you don't think there's a similar sort of thing happening there where there's I don't know

00:26:47   there's the the rudeness of causing noise to disturb other people and then there's the how

00:26:52   How engaged are you with the people around you? Yeah, I sound like I'm criticizing you. It's well now it's point taken

00:26:57   You know, it's probably not not the most polite thing that I do. I don't do it all the time

00:27:02   No, no, but I don't think it's really that different from somebody checking Twitter at the table or whatever

00:27:08   It's it's it's it's all on a spectrum though

00:27:11   And in a way and and if you went back and talked about it

00:27:14   you know, go back twenty, thirty years, it all seems pretty rude and, you know, that

00:27:20   the devices are drawing more attention than other people around us.

00:27:26   I think the baseball thing, it's a comical example of something that we all do. We'll

00:27:30   all check our phone, even if it's just my phone buzzed in my pocket and I'll excuse

00:27:35   myself for a second, even at my most polite, I'm still ignoring somebody for a minute while

00:27:39   I look at my phone. Yeah, and we're all a little hypocritical about it, where the things

00:27:43   that we love most about what our phones let us do we think are okay and the things we don't care

00:27:47   about are rude. So I don't like talking on the phone. I don't get many phone calls. So I'll

00:27:51   blather on about how rude it is that people will talk on the phone. But I love watching the Yankees.

00:27:56   And so, you know, I think being able to watch a Yankees game while I eat dinner is amazing

00:28:01   technology. So I admit that but I admit I have the self awareness to admit that I'm being a hypocrite

00:28:06   to present it that way.

00:28:08   I wish that Verizon would give me a zero minutes plan,

00:28:12   or like a 30 minutes plan. I use about 30 phone minutes a month.

00:28:15   I would happily pay less.

00:28:17   I don't even know what we use. I guess we use it a lot, because we have a shared pool

00:28:20   and Amy speaks on the phone a little bit more than me.

00:28:22   But I don't think we come even close to using all the minutes.

00:28:26   I think that we're at the point, even if Amy uses her phone a lot more than me,

00:28:30   we're not even close to using what they give us.

00:28:35   It's crazy that they still measure by minutes.

00:28:38   Yeah, like AOL.

00:28:39   Yeah.

00:28:40   I mean, does anybody, is there anybody who needs like extra minutes?

00:28:43   I guess there's some people who have a job that they're really truly on the phone all

00:28:47   the time.

00:28:48   You know, I would have met, you know, like real estate agents or something like that.

00:28:50   You know, that some jobs really are on your cell phone making phone calls all day, every

00:28:56   day.

00:28:57   But I don't know, do they, do they have to pay extra for that?

00:28:59   It just seems like everybody has unlimited plans now.

00:29:03   it seems like some people have the, the, like it's, you know,

00:29:05   a hundred dollars just for the phone part of it or something, uh,

00:29:09   but you get effectively or literally unlimited talk time. Why not make that?

00:29:14   The standard? I don't know.

00:29:16   Yeah. Maybe it's just a,

00:29:17   like a holdover from the fact that they're kind of a they're in,

00:29:21   they're moving into just being a dumb carrier at this point.

00:29:23   Yeah. Speaking of, of rude and callous behavior, do you see this thing?

00:29:27   You had to have seen it, the,

00:29:28   the it came out over the weekend that Facebook had been running

00:29:33   psychological experiment where they took a 600,000 or 700,000 users and half of them,

00:29:41   they randomly tried to algorithmically make their feed a little happier and the other half,

00:29:46   they tried to make it a little sadder and then tried to measure with like certain keywords,

00:29:53   like for the remainder of the week where the things that those people, those two pools posted

00:30:01   little did it indicate that they were in better or worse moods and the answer was yes that that it actually did seem to have

00:30:07   some sort of effect on their mood that the people whose

00:30:10   feed was diddled to make them happier seemed to be happier and the ones who were diddled to

00:30:15   And I

00:30:21   Mean this since here and I gotten some feedback on Twitter and an email from people saying that it's it's not helpful for me to say

00:30:29   I might my the gist of my response is I'm surprised that people are surprised

00:30:34   and I'm with you on that because this is what Facebook does so for example

00:30:38   compare and contrast to if the same thing had been announced about Twitter

00:30:42   now Twitter is a screwy company and I don't quite get their strategy I think

00:30:47   that the people who run Twitter are not very good at Twitter or they're not very

00:30:51   good at seeing what Twitter is good for but if this had come out about Twitter I

00:30:55   would have been very I would have been surprised because this doesn't sound

00:30:58   like something Twitter would do and I would have been surprised and I think I

00:31:02   would have been appalled I would you know I would but it would seem out of

00:31:05   character for Twitter incorporated to do something like this where at that that

00:31:12   to me is my point my point isn't to be so cynical as to assume that all

00:31:16   companies are doing stuff like that and that nobody should be outraged about

00:31:19   Facebook here because this is what they do what I'm saying is open your eyes

00:31:23   this is what Facebook does time and time again and I think that's an important

00:31:27   distinction. I think that Twitter, it would not surprise

00:31:31   me if we found out they were doing things with your not with

00:31:35   your stream, but evaluating your stream for advertising, they

00:31:38   might even do that now. I don't know. But anything, anything

00:31:41   about, like in a googly sort of way, looking at your stuff, and

00:31:45   then using that to decide what other stuff they show you. I'd

00:31:48   buy that. And I don't even know that I'd be offended by that.

00:31:50   But trying to manipulate me emotionally. I don't know,

00:31:54   though, maybe. And that people, you know, I don't want to be too callous about it.

00:31:58   And I think it clearly shows, it makes Facebook as a corporation come across as incredibly

00:32:04   callous. It's really, I mean, no doubt about it. But some people, it sounds like you're

00:32:11   one of them, really feel like anything related to attempting to manipulate people's emotions

00:32:17   is just crossing a sort of ethical line that just should not be crossed. Whereas I would

00:32:23   say isn't every advertisement an attempt to manipulate people emotionally?

00:32:28   Ben. Yeah, I agree with that. And I would say that it's not the, it's not that they're trying

00:32:33   to manipulate me emotionally, it's that they're willing to manipulate me emotionally in a negative

00:32:38   way. If they're altering my timeline to try to make me happier, and it works, great. If they're

00:32:43   altering my timeline to try to make me sad, that's not okay.

00:32:47   Yeah, but you can't do the science without having like a control group, right? Yeah.

00:32:52   I'm not trying to defend it. I'm just saying I can kind of see their perspective if you're

00:32:58   going to be sick bastards. See, to me, the part that's offensive is not that they tried to make

00:33:04   some sad and some happy. It's—because I don't think that they tried to make people suicidal.

00:33:10   I haven't read enough details to see. I would like to—I'd be curious to see, like, if you were in one

00:33:15   of the two groups what the difference would be like here's what your example users feed would

00:33:21   have looked like if they weren't chosen for it at all well they probably probably do things like if

00:33:27   you're uh if you're single they're gonna show you lots of posts of people getting married and and

00:33:32   having babies and stuff try to make you feel bad that'd be my guess right i think you're not in a

00:33:38   relationship emphasize other people's relationships or something exactly right and exactly but i'm

00:33:44   But I'm curious, I haven't seen a lot of details about exactly how they did the manipulation.

00:33:48   Well the guy who did it just wrote a response.

00:33:51   I haven't read it yet, but apparently, I mean he's going on record, he's saying,

00:33:54   "Here's why we did what we did."

00:33:57   There's a certain tone-deafness to them that they seem to be surprised that people are

00:34:04   reacting this way.

00:34:06   Because it's not like this was a secret internal project that a whistleblower leaked.

00:34:13   paper they published in a real scientific journal you know they

00:34:17   published it they were they're proud of the science behind it you know never

00:34:21   crossed their minds that people would be grossed out by the right that this might

00:34:25   be something they wouldn't want to tell people that they're doing like there's

00:34:28   obviously a very strange culture there at Facebook that it never even occurred

00:34:31   to them that people might be offended by this you know yeah I mean a B testing

00:34:36   with people's mental health that's uh that's the kind of thing that I don't

00:34:41   know maybe if if they allowed you to opt in like here's a new program we're doing well you did

00:34:45   everybody that's what they're saying is that every every single user of facebook has opted in

00:34:50   and that if you read their privacy uh statement that there's you know clearly you know there's

00:34:57   i and some people have even called it out there's even you know it even specifically says that you

00:35:01   know that something about research and you know who reads that nobody because it's opaque and it

00:35:07   is super long and they probably show it to you in like six point type, but it is there

00:35:12   and that part of their argument is that everybody has, has in code, you know.

00:35:18   Can you imagine Apple doing something like that and saying, well, if you would have read

00:35:21   that iTunes update agreement, it was all there. I think the most upsetting part to me, it's

00:35:29   like as a designer, I think to myself, the way that, and part of why I think that Twitter

00:35:34   would never do something like this is twitter you're seeing the stream and the value is

00:35:39   in having all of that data the value to you like there's an expectation that all of the

00:35:43   tweets are going to be there and facebook's approach you're not a you're not a facebook

00:35:46   user so i guess you don't get to see this you're you don't have to yeah but i'm really

00:35:51   anxious to sign up now but they do a thing where they don't show you a timeline they

00:35:57   show you it's kind of a timeline but they order it however they want right and so when

00:36:01   you when you open the Facebook app on your phone, it pushes you to the top, it scrolls

00:36:05   you to the top. Or it leaves you in the same spot and you with like a sort of like a jaggy

00:36:11   tap here to load more kind of a thing. But as you go to the top, like there's no rhyme

00:36:15   or reason to why the things are ordered the way they are they do it, the thing at the

00:36:19   top isn't the newest thing. And it doesn't even seem to be the most important or most

00:36:22   interesting thing. And my guess is that the manipulation is that

00:36:26   Right. And maybe that they make things that they, their algorithm says, "Hey, this seems

00:36:32   like something that's going to make Dave feel good." You know, I don't know, somebody like

00:36:38   a friend who's on vacation and has taken what algorithmically looks like a happy photograph.

00:36:44   This is going to make Dave feel good. Let's put the photograph right here at the top.

00:36:48   You know?

00:36:49   Yeah. And it bothers me that they would make editorial decisions about what I do and do

00:36:54   not see when I have intentionally befriended or followed all of these people.

00:36:58   Right.

00:36:59   It would suggest that my behavior would suggest that I want to see all of those things. Let

00:37:02   me curate it.

00:37:03   Yeah. And it does seem, I, I, I, and I, I do think, I think maybe that's the core of

00:37:09   what's really rubbing people the wrong way here and maybe is going to give this scandal

00:37:13   some legs maybe is, is the fact that they tried to make people feel bad. And you mentioned

00:37:19   that specifically, right? It would be different too if what they did was if they tried three

00:37:24   different algorithms to make people feel better about themselves and group a it

00:37:29   worked group B it didn't group C it actually had the detrimental effect and

00:37:36   made this group feel bad they didn't try to do it but it's like whoa it ends up

00:37:39   that if you only show them pictures of such-and-such that it actually makes

00:37:45   them feel bad and can you imagine the headlines they'd all say Facebook can

00:37:49   make you happier. Right. As opposed to the fact that they set out to make people, some

00:37:55   group of people feel a little worse. Facebook intentionally wanted some part of its user

00:38:01   base to be less happy. The fact that that's part of what would make, what for years has

00:38:06   kept me from using Facebook, like even wanting to sign up is that I just don't get it. I

00:38:11   don't get what's in the feed. Whereas I, especially old Twitter, like, but I like the Twitter

00:38:18   that you still can mostly get through like Tweetbot and third-party clients is I know

00:38:23   exactly what's going to be in my feed. It's the tweets from the people I've chosen to

00:38:30   follow ordered in the order that they've sent them.

00:38:34   Chronological list of tweets from people who I've decided to follow. And I know it's in

00:38:39   my mentioned stream. People who've typed @Gruber in the order that they've sent those tweets,

00:38:47   top to bottom. And I know exactly what that is, and I know what they're going to look

00:38:50   like. And it's, it's, there's like an integrity to it. Whereas to me, the, this, the Facebook,

00:38:57   what do you call it? The, the feed feed. There's no integrity to it. If, if it's arbitrarily

00:39:03   the, you know, ordered and I don't get it. That to me, it seems like it, why would I

00:39:11   sign up for that? There's like an inner, an inner, there's an inner Syracuse in me that

00:39:16   wants to know the rules for what this is going to be.

00:39:23   Yeah, exactly. That's my biggest complaint as a Facebook user. I guess I have other complaints.

00:39:28   My biggest is that I just don't know what I'm looking at.

00:39:31   Like my email inbox. I know exactly what it is. Somebody knows my email address, they've

00:39:34   typed an email to that address, and they've sent it. And then it comes in, and my mail

00:39:39   client will display those messages in chronological order.

00:39:44   The other thing Facebook does like that is they show you this list of people you may

00:39:47   know. And I gotta tell you, like, one out of 200 I actually know. I don't know who any

00:39:52   of these people are.

00:39:53   Trevor Burrus Twitter does that for me, and it's actually

00:39:54   pretty remarkable. 'Cause I, like, and I see it a lot, like, when I'm checking the Daring

00:39:59   Fireball account, 'cause the Daring Fireball account doesn't follow anybody. And they'll

00:40:04   say, "Hey, maybe you want to start following people. How about these people?" And it'll

00:40:07   be like Amy Gruber, Brent Simmons, and, you know, I don't know.

00:40:12   John Moltz. Yeah, exactly. It's like, wow, that's actually pretty good.

00:40:17   You should get those people. Yeah. You should hire those people away from Twitter.

00:40:20   Alright, let me take a spot here and thank our second sponsor. Then we'll move on and

00:40:25   we'll get to the real part of the show. I want to thank our good friends at Transporter.

00:40:32   That's, the company name is Connected Data. They've sponsored the show before.

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00:41:03   where it gets more interesting it's only stored on the transporter there is no

00:41:08   cloud storage. The cloud is only used for negotiating from your network to outside the

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00:41:36   They'll just sync together and they'll both be complete copies of each other.

00:41:41   So you can find other transporter users and you can do things like set up shared folders

00:41:45   and say here's a folder on my transporter.

00:41:48   I'm going to share it with Dave Whiskas and now we both have access to that folder and

00:41:52   we both know here's where the data is stored.

00:41:54   It's stored on my transporter and your transporter because they're shared folders between us

00:41:59   and that's it.

00:42:01   Big big difference between sharing stuff in the cloud and for some people, a lot of you,

00:42:04   I know this I've heard it from people who listen to the show for legal reasons a lot of people people work in the medical industry

00:42:10   And I'm sure other places where there's NDA's and stuff like that. You legally are not allowed to share certain data on

00:42:17   Devices where you don't have complete control over the device

00:42:20   You can't put things on something like iCloud or Dropbox because it's you know

00:42:25   There's legal implications as to where you can store the data

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00:43:15   though is you can provide your own USB drive, any USB drive, and you can buy it's more of like a

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00:44:15   you don't like it to send it right back to him my thanks to file transporter I

00:44:21   kind of want to buy one and just like stick it in a corner at an Apple store

00:44:24   not tell anybody. Let them host my data for me. I wonder how long I know how long that

00:44:30   would last. I bet not long. I'll bet that there's a sort of, uh, I'll bet it wouldn't

00:44:35   last bit past the end of the day. Yeah, they've got to, I'm sure they do a sweep. Yeah. Because

00:44:39   they have to clean up all the machines on a nonstop basis. I mean, I think that there's

00:44:43   like a checklist procedure they go through to make each one like store closes at seven

00:44:49   by eight o'clock it's back in mint condition. Do you think that when they close down an

00:44:53   an Apple store before they open up the Apple store.

00:44:55   And I don't mean like permanently,

00:44:56   but like in the morning and evening,

00:44:58   do you think they wipe down the devices? Yeah. I mean, I mean, physically I do.

00:45:02   I found I'm almost certain of it.

00:45:04   They could like clean off the fingerprints for the day and whatever gunk was.

00:45:07   I think they do it throughout the day. Oh, that'd be better.

00:45:10   I've never seen them do it. Yeah. Well, I think that's part of the magic.

00:45:13   You know, it's like they've got like a Disney world. They've got like, uh,

00:45:17   things were like the, the, instead of like hauling the trash around the park,

00:45:21   just like suck them through holes in the floor that go into the underground tunnels so that

00:45:24   you don't have to see the trash being hauled out.

00:45:26   That's a nice touch.

00:45:28   Yeah. Hey, so the main reason I actually wanted you on the show is the one big thing from

00:45:33   WWDC that's left on my things I want to talk or write about that I haven't talked or written

00:45:39   about is Yosemite.

00:45:40   Yeah.

00:45:41   And the new design of Yosemite. And, you know, I thought to have you on the show because

00:45:46   you and I are in fact collaborating, working on a Mac app this summer. So we're sort of

00:45:55   right in the middle of it. Now, what are we, almost a month out, right? Or four weeks since…

00:46:02   From WWDC? Yeah.

00:46:03   Yeah, yeah. Right? Because it was the second, so it's

00:46:07   four weeks. Yeah. You better get moving.

00:46:14   Are you using Yosemite daily?

00:46:16   No, I tried, and there's some kind of bug with the upgrades.

00:46:20   I have a second partition setup that's running a clean install of Yosemite, and that was

00:46:24   running great.

00:46:26   I decided, "Okay, maybe all my stuff works.

00:46:29   Everything should be fine.

00:46:30   I'm going to install it on my main partition."

00:46:32   And I did, and it was a nightmare.

00:46:35   And things were broken.

00:46:37   I don't mean nightmare like there were some bugs and things crashed.

00:46:40   I mean finder wouldn't launch.

00:46:43   If I wanted to open a file, I had to do it through terminal.

00:46:47   And that took 45 seconds to load.

00:46:48   So I kind of, I bounced back and forth.

00:46:51   If I need to look at UI stuff,

00:46:52   or if I need to try to evaluate

00:46:54   the way they're doing a thing, I'll switch partitions.

00:46:57   I'll reboot into Yosemite, but for the moment,

00:46:59   like day to day, I'm still running Mavericks.

00:47:01   - Yeah, I got real excited about it

00:47:03   'cause for a couple of days, it seemed so stable

00:47:06   that I thought, hey, I think I can switch full time quickly,

00:47:10   maybe like with the next beta.

00:47:12   And then I ran into a thing where I could not log in to my main account that I had just

00:47:19   created.

00:47:20   I could use a guest account and then from the guest account on terminal I could like

00:47:23   use sudo with my admin account.

00:47:26   But there was nothing I could do to log into the admin account.

00:47:30   And then it like fixed itself somehow.

00:47:32   But it was scary enough that I was like, "You know what?

00:47:34   I better wait."

00:47:35   But you could always do a backup and then run the upgrade for a week.

00:47:40   And if you don't like it, switch back.

00:47:41   Yeah, I think I'll probably switch on the next beta though, and at least I'll still

00:47:46   have a machine here running my old install of Mavericks and with everything on it. But

00:47:53   everything, I have so much syncs, it's so much easier to use multiple Macs now with

00:47:58   iCloud and other syncing services that it's not like the old days where it was really,

00:48:04   really, it would just drive you nuts because there's, "Oh, I need that file and it's on

00:48:08   the other machine."

00:48:09   I don't know. I still can't do it. I can't get my head around it. And that might just

00:48:13   be that I'm too used to doing things the old way of running multiple machines. Yeah, I

00:48:18   can't, I can't run. I have to have one Mac. If I have two, then I like, yeah, iCloud and

00:48:23   Dropbox make it better, but then there's like still preferences per machine that I'll forget

00:48:28   about. The other thing is that I don't think it's as imperative to be using it on a daily

00:48:33   basis design wise because I don't think it's that radical a design and as the

00:48:38   you know it's a month as the month has gone on I'm happy with it almost

00:48:43   completely the parts I'm not happy with I don't think are that big a deal what

00:48:48   aren't you happy with well we could I've told you about the OK buttons I don't

00:48:53   like that we can come back to that in a second but I don't feel like it's

00:48:58   fundamentally changed the way you design a good Mac app it's a new you know it's

00:49:03   it almost is only skin deep and I don't mean that as a

00:49:06   Complaint I think it speaks to

00:49:10   You know that they did they if it's not broke don't don't fix it in terms of you know

00:49:17   What it means to be a Mac app as opposed to iOS 7 which I think was more

00:49:23   Significantly more radical change in that you really needed to be using the iOS 7 betas on a daily basis

00:49:30   To get a feel for how an app should should be designed for iOS 7 last summer

00:49:37   Yeah, there's all the rumors leading up to WWDC that look

00:49:42   Does 10 10 is gonna be a pretty dramatic makeover. It's gonna be it's very iOS 7

00:49:47   That's what we kept hands can be very iOS 7 and when we saw it

00:49:49   I was taken aback at how not iOS 7 it was. Yeah, I agree with that. They look related, but they look like

00:49:57   siblings you know the way that was sometimes you meet you know a brother

00:50:01   and a sister and you're like oh yeah you to kind of look alike but not like in a

00:50:05   freaky way you know well and also playing to their own strengths yeah it

00:50:10   feels like a very measured I you know I maybe it would have been a bigger

00:50:14   surprise if there were no iowa7 i think that iowa7 softened the blow maybe but i

00:50:19   remember you and i talking about this when we were sort of trying to guess

00:50:22   what yo somebody might look like and the one thing we kept looking at and and in

00:50:26   In some ways it was like, "Ooh, that would be kind of cool."

00:50:28   But then there were in other ways, we were both like gritting our teeth like, "Ooh, this

00:50:34   could be bad," is the iCloud web apps.

00:50:37   Yeah.

00:50:38   Right?

00:50:39   So when you go to iCloud.com on a Mac or Windows, I guess, but you get like, you know, you're

00:50:44   using a mouse pointer, you're using a trackpad or a mouse in a physical keyboard.

00:50:48   You're not touching the screen, but it looks really iOS 70.

00:50:54   Yeah, but in a good way, in a measured way, where it's not, I don't know.

00:51:00   Looking at the web apps, the iCloud.com stuff, it felt like a sort of, I don't want to

00:51:06   say happy medium, but you could start to get a sense of how they would solve some of these

00:51:10   windowing problems.

00:51:12   Because on iOS, you'll never have two apps open at the same time.

00:51:15   You don't have to worry about one thing sitting in front of another thing.

00:51:18   Whereas on a Mac, you'll always have that problem.

00:51:21   it seemed like they were starting to hint at, well, we

00:51:23   were still going to have shadows, we're still going to

00:51:25   treat these things as individual structures on the

00:51:29   screen.

00:51:30   Yeah, but I think that that's why I'm looking at it now. I'm

00:51:33   looking at iCloud mail. And it looks way more like an iPad app

00:51:38   than a Mac app. And

00:51:39   oh, yeah, what's like the further you get in? Yeah, like

00:51:42   the UI of the I guess what I'm looking at is some of the

00:51:44   things like if you go into contacts, and you click to

00:51:48   delete somebody. It feels, it's iOS 70, but you can start to see the hinting, like

00:51:54   the way the window, the alert thing comes up, the delete confirmation, the way it comes

00:51:59   up and the way it sits on the screen. That to me hints at what we wound up getting in

00:52:04   USM, but more than it feels like a direct translation of anything from iOS.

00:52:09   Well, and the other thing, the big difference too is that iOS, not iOS, the iCloud interface

00:52:18   doesn't have a lot of, like a lot of the buttons don't really have strong tap down states, you

00:52:24   know, press states, you know, I don't know what the best way to call it. I always call

00:52:27   it tap down, but pressed state, you know, sort of like iOS, whereas Yosemite does.

00:52:34   You feel pretty good, because that's, that's been a thing for you.

00:52:37   that look like buttons has been my obsession and to me Yosemite doesn't

00:52:40   change it at all like buttons all look like buttons in a way that I really hope

00:52:44   that iOS I guess we have to wait for nine now but I hope that iOS nine takes

00:52:48   some cues from that yeah and there's it's such a weird place to go from here

00:52:55   but the the Google stuff kind of it's showing the if you there the material UI

00:53:03   by the cloud hold that well finish your point but let's come back to that right

00:53:07   right it's to me is kind of a hint of in an alternate universe what iOS 9 might a

00:53:14   direction that it could go in where it's a little bit more shadowy it's a little

00:53:19   bit like a return not to skeuomorphism but some kind of happy point between

00:53:23   super flat and allowing the the the z axis to mean something yeah I could see

00:53:30   that. So we can come back to that. The, the, like, from, to come back to something

00:53:37   from five minutes ago, the one thing, one of the things I don't like about Yosemite

00:53:39   is I don't like how the, if you have a dialog box with cancel and OK buttons,

00:53:44   the OK button is already blue with white text, but that's the tap-down state for

00:53:51   the cancel button. So if you press the cancel button but don't let go, then the

00:53:55   two buttons look almost identical.

00:53:57   Like, to me they picked a bad,

00:54:00   a bad look for the default button.

00:54:06   To me the default button should look different

00:54:09   from the other buttons, but it shouldn't look as different

00:54:11   as the one in Yosemite.

00:54:14   - Yeah, and it seems like what you would want

00:54:15   is something that both indicates that this is selected,

00:54:18   but also, like, 'cause some people are gonna hit

00:54:22   the return key on their keyboard

00:54:24   rather than clicking the button.

00:54:26   Because then the other thing, conversely,

00:54:27   is so that if the cancel button, or if there's more than one,

00:54:31   if any of the other regular buttons,

00:54:33   the ones that don't activate just by hitting Return,

00:54:35   when you tap, press and hold on the button,

00:54:38   you get this really vibrant press state.

00:54:40   It goes from a white background with black text

00:54:43   to a blue background with white text.

00:54:46   Super vibrant difference from whether it's

00:54:48   pressed or unpressed.

00:54:49   Whereas the default button goes from vibrant blue

00:54:52   with white text to a slightly different shade of vibrant blue with white text.

00:54:58   It's an almost indistinguishable difference between pressed and

00:55:01   unpressed. It just seems like an unforced error on Apple's part to do that. And

00:55:07   it's a super niggling thing for me to dwell on, but it's one of the things

00:55:11   where I can't get, even a month in, I can't get over it. You've been, I

00:55:16   don't know, grousing about the buttons, the tap-down state and buttons since

00:55:19   Iowa seven came out are you I think even during the betas that's been like a

00:55:23   Thing for you and maybe it maybe it really is just that Johnny I've isn't

00:55:27   Really thinking too much about the way buttons look when they're pressed. Yeah, it seems like it seems like they've well

00:55:33   I don't know like I have a much bigger. I

00:55:36   put more importance on it than than

00:55:39   Johnny Ives Apple does and I think even more than I do

00:55:43   Like it's it's a good thing to care about but it's like I look at I'm like, you know

00:55:47   it doesn't really bother me that much. It's not the first thing I'd go to. The reason I care about it is that

00:55:51   to me, it's the only real feedback you get. Like in the real world when you click a button,

00:55:58   there's no doubt in your mind when you've

00:56:01   pressed it down and when you've let it go.

00:56:04   Because you feel it, right? If at least if it's a nice button with a bit of clickiness like the buttons on all the buttons

00:56:11   on the iPhone, right? Here I am. I've got the iPhone in my hand and I'm pressing the volume buttons and

00:56:15   They click and I know when I've pressed it down because there's a click and I know when I've let go because it clicks the other

00:56:20   Way whereas when you're pressing things on screen, especially on the iPhone to me. It's even more important on the iPhone. It's like

00:56:27   You don't feel any click. There is no haptic feedback

00:56:30   and

00:56:34   You know who knows maybe that's where they're going with new devices later this calendar year is haptic feedback

00:56:39   But then why did they change it a year ago in Iowa 7?

00:56:41   You know, I know I remember last year during the summer a lot of people speculated that the the decrease in visual feedback on

00:56:49   Press states for buttons might you know, a lot of people were guessing there'd be haptic feedback in the iPhone 5s and there's not

00:56:56   So to me that visual feedback is all you get and so to me it's worth emphasizing

00:57:02   When we were at build we were playing with some of those

00:57:04   Uh, they had that press room where you could play with the the phones and stuff and they a lot of the I think most

00:57:09   of them if not all of them had haptic feedback so you'd tap something and it

00:57:12   would give you like a little bit of a buzz and in playing with it I realized

00:57:15   it's just it's not the magic that I thought it was where the thing right

00:57:19   under my finger is buzzing it's just the device vibrates and the reason you

00:57:23   couldn't do that today on the iPhone right but that's yeah I think if Apple

00:57:27   were gonna do it they'd want to do some kind of advanced thing where it it

00:57:30   literally somehow gives you feedback right where you've pressed not that the

00:57:34   whole device is vibrating which is what the Windows phone devices do like I

00:57:39   I think they were all, weren't they all set so that when you typed H key press gave you

00:57:44   a tap?

00:57:45   Yeah. And it was not like a, it's not like your phone buzzing in your pocket buzz. It's

00:57:50   not that kind of vibrator. Just like a little, just a little something like, you don't, you

00:57:53   almost even notice it.

00:57:54   Yeah. I didn't hate it, but I didn't find it helpful either.

00:57:57   I liked it until I realized that there's no magic there. And it was just my, it was just

00:58:00   the phone buzzing in my hand.

00:58:02   Well, it doesn't solve to me the problem. Like, so for example, on the iPhone keyboard,

00:58:06   from the get-go from 2007 when you press a key you get like you you press the S

00:58:13   key an S pop-up shows up above your thumb yeah and it's like if so if you're

00:58:19   watching as you type there's this visual indication that you just typed an S

00:58:25   because you you there's no other you know you need that feedback because

00:58:30   there's the buttons are the buttons for each key on the keyboard are so close to

00:58:33   each other that you wouldn't know. Whereas if the whole phone vibrates or taps in the

00:58:38   exact same way, no matter which key you pressed, it doesn't help you know that you typed an

00:58:43   S instead of a D. You just know you typed something. And to me, that's not helpful.

00:58:49   Have you ever done one of those tests where you see if you type better with the clicks

00:58:54   or without the clicks? No.

00:58:56   I've always got the ringer off on my phone because I just almost never want to hear my

00:59:01   my phone ring. But it seems like when the clicks are on, my typing accuracy goes up.

00:59:08   I think so too. I keep the clicks on. There's the—well, I mean, I keep the clicks on,

00:59:13   my ringer's always on. Right, so you don't actually hear them.

00:59:16   Right. The building I live in, I got to enter a keycode to get in. And about a month or

00:59:21   two ago, they changed it. I don't know what they did, but it no longer—when you dial

00:59:24   the keypad, they don't beep at you anymore. And without the beeps, I'll screw it up

00:59:29   two or three times before I get in.

00:59:30   Hmm. Yeah, I like the key types. But there's some people who think that that's so absurd

00:59:36   that they can't believe, they find it shocking that I use the key clicks on the iOS. It's

00:59:42   similar though. The key clicks aren't that much of a help because it's similar to the

00:59:45   whole phone vibrating at each time. You get the same click no matter which key you've

00:59:49   pressed. It doesn't help you know that you got the right key. As opposed to like on a

00:59:52   hardware keyboard, like on a Blackberry with a hardware keyboard, you know that you've

00:59:57   press the right key because there's an actual physical sensation.

01:00:01   But the physical sensation is identical for each key.

01:00:04   Yeah, but in practice, though, if you think about it, if you've ever, I've never used

01:00:08   a Blackberry full time, but even if I've just toyed with one, you know you've gotten the

01:00:12   right key though, spatially, you know, like if your thumb is on that border between S

01:00:18   and D, you know that you want that depressation to be on the left side, not the right side.

01:00:24   if you do hit a D by accident, you can feel, Oh, my thumb was

01:00:27   too far to the right, you know, right, because the way the key

01:00:29   presses in right only ever presses in, it doesn't slide

01:00:32   around. So depending, like your angle of attack will change, the

01:00:36   physicality of it, it clarifies, you know, and that that would be

01:00:39   the sort of I don't know what the technology would be. But if

01:00:41   there was a way to make it so that you got a physical click,

01:00:46   or press or some kind of sensation, right on the pixels

01:00:49   that you've pressed, it could I could see how that would help

01:00:53   something like keyboard typing tremendously but I don't even know

01:00:56   I mean I've never heard of such technology they should just put a

01:01:00   hardware keyboard on those things

01:01:02   yeah I do think what going back to Yosemite though overall though I like it

01:01:05   a lot

01:01:06   and every time I I stop using I have it on a separate machine right now I don't

01:01:10   have a main machine but every time I go back to

01:01:12   Mavericks it's it just feels with

01:01:15   like going back to iOS 6 but even more so yeah it was a

01:01:20   It was like a little bit of culture shock for me after spending a couple days in Yosemite coming back to Mavericks

01:01:24   And I'm used to it now and this is it's fine. I don't hate it

01:01:28   It doesn't feel as dramatic as Iowa six to Iowa seven going the other direction

01:01:32   But it does I am surprised at how much I like it

01:01:36   Yeah, it's not as yeah, it's it's funny

01:01:39   It's not as big a difference clearly not as big a difference as Iowa six to Iowa seven

01:01:44   But somehow going back it was harder quicker

01:01:47   because it's so familiar it's just an improvement i think in almost every way

01:01:52   that it makes going back

01:01:54   force whereas i was seven there were things it just took time to get used to

01:01:57   whereas you're somebody to me doesn't take any time to get used to it's like

01:02:01   oh this is just better

01:02:02   yeah there's not a lot of downside

01:02:04   using i was seven there's a well i don't know how to let the status bar thing i

01:02:07   don't think i like it and these buttons are weird and there's you know bunch of

01:02:11   stuff with my uh... maverick studio somebody it really does just feel like

01:02:14   they dialed it up a little bit

01:02:17   I'm curious, and I saw, did you see that Tobias Frere-Jones, somebody asked him what he thought

01:02:22   about Helvetica as a system font?

01:02:24   Oh, no, I didn't see that.

01:02:26   You'll have to look at it afterwards.

01:02:27   But the gist of it is that—I'll put it in the show notes, I promise.

01:02:34   But I forget who somebody asked Tobias Frere-Jones, formerly of Heffler Frere-Jones and the whole

01:02:44   ugly divorce going on there. But the designer of Gotham among other, you know, very, very

01:02:51   popular and well-designed font. He, you know, spoke very highly of Lucida Grande as a system

01:02:56   font and, you know, mentioned that some of the problems with Helvetica as a system font.

01:03:03   But I think the bottom line, and he mentions it too, is that it's, you know, it's retina

01:03:07   versus non-retina and I've only been using Yosemite on a retina MacBook Pro

01:03:13   I haven't looked at it yet I guess I should try it maybe put it on my

01:03:17   MacBook Air or something and see what it looks like on a non-retina display and I

01:03:23   can only imagine it is going to look worse I do think that's one of the

01:03:27   things about Yosemite that is very much in spirit with iOS 7 is that it's a

01:03:32   retina first display design. It's designed to look optimum, it's

01:03:37   optimized for retina displays. And it's secondarily meant to

01:03:41   look okay on non retina displays.

01:03:43   Do you think that's a hint at Apple wanting to move to or

01:03:47   being ready to move to a future where there's only retina

01:03:49   screens?

01:03:50   Oh, definitely. I mean, if anybody thinks it's not going to

01:03:54   be all retina with at some point in the next few years, I mean,

01:03:57   you're nuts. But I mean, how quickly that's going to be,

01:03:59   hopefully, it's a sign that it's going to be sooner than rather

01:04:02   than later. Right? Yeah, that's what I mean. Like if they're

01:04:05   doing if they're already setting things up for it's gonna look

01:04:08   like anything. Everything looks better on retina by definition,

01:04:11   but some some things translate the other direction better than

01:04:14   others. And I can I don't have I don't think I have anything

01:04:17   with a non retina screen on it. Come to think of it.

01:04:20   Because you don't have a desktop display anymore. You just work

01:04:23   off a 15 inch MacBook Pro.

01:04:25   Yeah, 15 straight now. So I don't know I haven't I haven't

01:04:28   seen. Well, you know, I'm looking I'm thinking back

01:04:31   Helvetica was a system font on the iPhone from day one.

01:04:36   And that wasn't terrible.

01:04:37   I mean, it wasn't maybe not as readable as Lucida Grande, but...

01:04:41   Yeah, it always worked on iOS, and it wasn't bad, but I do think it's gonna be worse.

01:04:47   And I feel like the same way that it did work, and it was fine on iOS pre-retina, it's definitely

01:04:54   going to be...

01:04:55   I think there'll be complaints about it, though, when Yosemite actually ships.

01:05:00   i wonder if apples new philosophy about hundred people is the same as mine was

01:05:04   again cares

01:05:05   i don't think so not yet i think maybe on i_o_s_ it is

01:05:08   and i think that's you know i feel like the only people who they really care

01:05:11   about

01:05:12   vaguely it would probably be

01:05:14   owners of the original

01:05:16   i pad

01:05:18   because that devices only

01:05:22   they were still being sold a year ago yeah

01:05:24   and i can't really you can still buy now right

01:05:26   isn't okay and i think so

01:05:28   I think that that's like the low end iPad.

01:05:31   Let me see.

01:05:35   That's the last one that I feel like they really care about because the last iPhone

01:05:38   that was pre-retina was 3GS.

01:05:40   I mean, that's – forget about it.

01:05:41   I mean, you know, God bless you if you're still rocking your 3GS.

01:05:45   But, yeah, maybe they're not.

01:05:49   I don't know.

01:05:50   Maybe let's see here.

01:05:52   Compare.

01:05:53   Yeah, they still sell the iPad mini without retina display.

01:05:57   gigabytes to ninety nine

01:06:01   so but you know i've jonas uses my old one and it's not bad i mean it's you

01:06:06   know it's

01:06:09   i don't know that it's any worse than that did then that

01:06:12   the helvetica was is the system font on

01:06:15   iowa six maybe the some of the lack of contrast makes it less showy offy but

01:06:20   yeah you know it's like i wrote about when they first went rednet it's that i

01:06:24   I think some of those the visual trickery making buttons look

01:06:27   likable and putting a lot of, you know, lighting effects on

01:06:32   the buttons and stuff was all to sort of make the thing look

01:06:36   better than the display was capable of really looking.

01:06:39   Whereas with retina displays, you can just let it actually

01:06:42   look good, just by bright type on a plain background.

01:06:44   Right. And I'm not saying that there. This would be in the

01:06:51   spirit of well, who cares what it looks like on a non retina

01:06:53   screens as much as it is, I don't think Apple at this point, just going by what they've

01:06:58   done with how that is a system font in Yosemite, I don't think that they're willing to sacrifice

01:07:03   what they think is the path forward to make things just a little bit better on non-retina

01:07:07   screens.

01:07:08   I will say this, using Yosemite, and I've used it a fair amount, I don't have it on

01:07:12   my main machine yet, but I've used it as much as I can in the last month.

01:07:17   party apps, it varies. It actually really varies how much they get automatically. None

01:07:23   look perfect automatically, but some look a lot better than others. And you can see

01:07:29   who was specifying here, "Display this list in the system font." And then there's others

01:07:35   who said, "Display this list in LucidaGrand 12 point." And the ones who were saying, "Just

01:07:42   me the system font, they get Helvetica Neue automatically, and it looks pretty good. And

01:07:47   the ones who were using Lucida, it just looks old. And then, you know, some of the icons

01:07:51   translate a little better, like toolbar icons translate better than others, some don't.

01:07:57   But I'm really curious, and to me it's a lot like the shift from iOS, where, you know,

01:08:02   app makers have got to get on, you know, got to get updates out the door and make their

01:08:06   stuff look right on Yosemite. But I'm curious if it's going to

01:08:10   take longer for third party developers to update their Mac

01:08:15   apps just in the way that because they're too busy updating

01:08:17   their iPhone apps first.

01:08:19   Yeah, yeah. I think I mean, you if you're smart, and the

01:08:23   convention is that you're supposed to stick to the the

01:08:27   API's as much as you can. Because if Apple changes

01:08:30   something out from under you, you get that change for free.

01:08:32   This is why you're supposed to use like a stock source list and

01:08:35   and not roll your own.

01:08:36   So the funny one to me, my favorite example of an app

01:08:40   that looks even better in Yosemite is NetNewsWire 3.

01:08:44   - I don't know that I looked at NetNewsWire 3.

01:08:48   - I opened up NetNewsWire 3 and it looks

01:08:49   on a retina screen, it's got some weird issues on Mavericks.

01:08:53   And it just, it looks not bad.

01:08:55   I still use it as my daily news reader, but it looks dated.

01:08:59   And I opened it up on Yosemite,

01:09:01   just 'cause I wanted to read my feeds.

01:09:04   I open it up and it looks great.

01:09:05   - Because the fonts are all Helvetica.

01:09:07   - Yeah, everything's in Helvetica

01:09:08   and the source list is the vibrancy, transparency stuff.

01:09:11   - Oh, really?

01:09:12   - Yeah, it's one of the most Yosemite ready apps

01:09:15   I had on my Mac.

01:09:16   - Yeah, you know what, that is another thing

01:09:18   that I've noticed is that it's clear,

01:09:21   I didn't even know there was such a thing,

01:09:23   but there must, obviously in hindsight,

01:09:24   there must be like a give me a default looking sidebar.

01:09:29   And those apps look pretty good on Yosemite

01:09:33   and it's translucent already.

01:09:35   And then there's others where they've got like

01:09:36   a blue background with, you know, the wrong font

01:09:41   and it just looks so dated, looks foreign.

01:09:45   - Well, it reminds me of template images.

01:09:49   So the icons that you create for a sidebar source list

01:09:53   on the Mac and the things like a tab bar based app

01:09:57   on the iPhone, you instead of making an icon

01:10:00   that looks like what the end user sees,

01:10:02   you just make an alpha channel icon

01:10:06   where the gradient is what determines the alpha.

01:10:11   So whatever Apple does to update the OS,

01:10:14   whatever the new style is,

01:10:16   your app running on that version of the OS

01:10:19   will look like every other.

01:10:21   So you're never stuck,

01:10:22   like if you were to go in and make,

01:10:24   like looking right now at my screen,

01:10:25   I see Finder in Mavericks has that,

01:10:27   like all of the sort of monochrome,

01:10:31   slightly washed out icons along the side,

01:10:34   like the iTunes style, those are all just flat,

01:10:39   black and white, alpha channel,

01:10:41   probably JPEGs or PNGs sitting somewhere.

01:10:44   And then the second the OS gets updated,

01:10:47   they all look the new way.

01:10:49   - Right, I think bottom line, wrapping up Yosemite,

01:10:51   I really like it, I think that it's exactly

01:10:57   exactly what Apple should have done. I don't think anything more radical was called for.

01:11:03   And I think it's going to prove to be far less controversial. I still think there's

01:11:08   some people who consider iOS 7 controversial, right?

01:11:13   There are people who refuse to upgrade still. Yeah, I don't think that that's going to happen

01:11:17   with Yosemite, just because of the appearance. And other than the appearance, it's not really

01:11:22   that different. They haven't really changed any of the other rules.

01:11:25   No, but I do feel like especially with we don't see any of this really today because it's all betas but

01:11:31   the extensions stuff and the handoff I think

01:11:36   this to me pushes towards that that ideal of

01:11:40   ages ago a friend of mine told me that his vision for

01:11:43   computers in the future would be like you carry the thing around like your phone or whatever it is and

01:11:48   You can use it the way it is and when you get to work you you dock it somehow

01:11:53   somehow. And then the interface changes so that it's tailored to the way you're working

01:11:59   on that.

01:12:00   Right. And now all of a sudden it can drive a 30-inch display on your desk.

01:12:03   Right. And Apple's doing it, I think, an even more clever way, which is allowing you

01:12:07   to pass what really matters, which is the state and the data back and forth, and let

01:12:11   the machines be their own thing.

01:12:13   Yeah. Because at a certain… And who knows? I don't know. I feel like that dockable

01:12:18   It always it sounds good, but it always runs in the problems and for example your desktop computer if you have a power source

01:12:25   Even if it's a laptop, but if you can put a power source into it at your desk

01:12:30   You you want to be able to have apps running and consuming?

01:12:35   Significant amount of sub Cepu in the background whereas your phone you'd never want that

01:12:40   Right right, so what do you do like you can say okay?

01:12:44   when I dock the thing, it, it runs like a real Unix computer and applications in the

01:12:51   background can just do what they want. And then I want to go to the bathroom and take

01:12:55   my phone with me and just pick it up. Then what happens to all those processes that were

01:12:59   running like all of a sudden now they're told, Nope, Nope. Now you're, you're going to be

01:13:03   put to sleep in 10 milliseconds. Hurry up, hurry up and finish.

01:13:08   And the the I mean you could do things like the dock itself has additional CPU and memory

01:13:14   Resources and maybe those processes can attach to the die

01:13:17   It just gets super like the kind of people who really like running Linux would would enjoy that

01:13:22   Yeah, I think that this is a better approach and it's you know

01:13:25   We can even spin it as we talk about some of the Google I/o stuff and it's you know a similar approach

01:13:30   But that Google has that it's not one machine that you take everywhere

01:13:35   but like one set of state that's available everywhere.

01:13:40   It's your state that syncs, not the actual computer.

01:13:45   - Right, and I was eight and Yosemite to me feel like

01:13:48   we're finally there or we're very, very close to

01:13:52   that your iPad and your iPhone and your Mac

01:13:55   all work together.

01:13:56   - Yeah, one question people have been asking me,

01:13:57   I actually don't know the answer

01:13:58   'cause I don't have a spare iPad to run iOS 8 on

01:14:03   and I'm a little hesitant to put it on my iPad.

01:14:06   - I'm running it full time on mine, it's great.

01:14:09   - You know, I gotta see it,

01:14:11   'cause I've had problems in the past years

01:14:12   where the MLB app doesn't work on the beta,

01:14:16   and it's like the only app that I really can't do

01:14:19   without over summer on the iPad, so I have to see, but--

01:14:22   - I'm the wrong guy to ask about that.

01:14:23   - Well, people have been asking,

01:14:24   will this work between continuity, like handoff,

01:14:27   like I've started an email,

01:14:29   can you hand it off from an iPhone to an iPad,

01:14:31   or is it only from Mac to iOS?

01:14:33   I think it's only Mac to iOS.

01:14:35   I don't think you can go iOS to iOS.

01:14:38   But that seems like something that could be

01:14:41   like a 8.1 update or something later in the year.

01:14:45   It makes sense that you might want to,

01:14:48   somebody, hey, I want to go from this small machine,

01:14:51   the iPhone, where I'm pecking this thing out with my thumbs,

01:14:54   to the big machine where I do my email.

01:14:56   Somebody else's big machine for email might be their iPad.

01:15:00   So I could see it coming.

01:15:01   I don't think that it's there yet though. I could go test it.

01:15:04   Don't bother. Yeah. Tweet it later.

01:15:08   I am. Uh, I'm impressed with iOS eight. I'm running iOS eight on my phone,

01:15:13   my carry phone, my day phone and uh, on my, my day iPad.

01:15:17   I've only got the one iPad, but yeah, my retina iPad mini, uh,

01:15:20   both are running iOS eight full time and both there. I mean,

01:15:23   there's weird stuff like, um,

01:15:24   I got to reboot my phone every couple of days cause things just get wonky.

01:15:29   Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because I've been meaning to talk about this.

01:15:33   So what I do is I have, I still have my year-old iPhone 5,

01:15:37   which is also on Verizon. So I just,

01:15:41   and I have iOS 8 on that device, and I just take my SIM card

01:15:45   out of my daily iPhone 5s, put it in the 5, and then I can just

01:15:49   use that phone all day. And I've spent a week using just that, and it's pretty good.

01:15:53   That's a smart way to do it. Yeah, but you have to make sure, you know,

01:15:57   I couldn't do it the year before though because last year was the year where I had switched

01:16:01   from AT&T to Verizon. So my year old iPhone 4S, I couldn't SIM card swap with the Verizon.

01:16:08   So it only works so long as your year ago phone is on the same carrier.

01:16:12   And same SIM setup because well, it wasn't. Yeah, exactly. Right. Right. So like Verizon

01:16:19   phones were not well, they were world phones, but they couldn't add on. Yeah, it was funny

01:16:23   in it and every couple years they cut the SIM card size down too.

01:16:27   Yeah, because it was mini and now it's micro. Right, like maybe with the iPhone 6 they're

01:16:31   going to come, you know, and make an even smaller SIM card. I don't know.

01:16:34   Now it's just a, it's a, you get an eyedropper and you just drop it in there.

01:16:38   One thing though, this is the thing I've been meaning to talk about, is this was the first

01:16:41   year, so I've tried to do this, you know, run the beta on my year old iPhone as much

01:16:48   as I can over the summer. And even like last year when I couldn't SIM card swap, I would

01:16:53   at least carry the iPhone 4s around in the house on Wi-Fi as you know the only

01:16:58   thing I couldn't do is get phone calls but I don't like I said I don't get many

01:17:01   phone calls but everything else I get this is the first year where I don't find

01:17:06   going back to the iPhone 5 to be slow physically slow like the interface feels

01:17:11   slow I noticed it in some places but like the keyboard doesn't feel slow like

01:17:16   it always that's the one thing every single year when I test the new beta of

01:17:20   of the operating system on my year-old iPhone, I think, "Man, how did I ever type on this thing?

01:17:25   The keyboard is too slow." And it's never been, I don't know if it's because there were, you know,

01:17:30   the operating system slowed down. I don't know if it's just that I got used to the increased

01:17:35   or decreased latency of the interface responsiveness. But this is the one year,

01:17:41   for the most part, day-to-day, I don't feel that much difference between the 5S and 5

01:17:45   just in terms of navigating around the operating system.

01:17:48   Well, this is with you running iOS 8 on the older phone?

01:17:51   Yeah.

01:17:52   You're saying you typically run the new OS on the older phone?

01:17:56   Yes.

01:17:57   I'm thinking that it has more to do with the newness of the OS than the age of the phone,

01:18:01   in terms of your keyboard latency.

01:18:02   I don't know. I'm thinking maybe that.

01:18:05   Maybe it's that iOS 8 because they didn't do anything new interface-wise,

01:18:10   radically, that it's nothing but improved performance-wise,

01:18:14   as opposed to, like last year, obviously a lot of people had complaints

01:18:18   that iOS 7 was dog slow on older hardware.

01:18:20   Yeah.

01:18:21   There's nothing, no, I don't think there's any reason to worry about that from iOS 7

01:18:25   to iOS 8.

01:18:27   And I think it combines with the fact that maybe the iPhone 5 was the first one where

01:18:31   the A6 was sort of good enough, you know, that it's, you know, at least for things like

01:18:39   typing that we don't need, you know, the speed improvements I'm sure help in image processing,

01:18:45   for example, right?

01:18:46   like when you take 10 snapshots in a row using the press and hold thing there's

01:18:52   obviously a lot of computation that's involved there the faster a7 really

01:18:56   helps but for just showing a touchscreen keyboard and typing the a5 I think is

01:19:02   where where it hit the fast enough mark hmm because I'm doing it the other way

01:19:07   around where I've got iOS 8 on my 5s and I've got iOS 7 running on a lot I don't

01:19:12   keep these devices around so WWDC you had brought Amy's old 4S for me and having a

01:19:18   two year gap between those phones I'm running iOS 7 on the older phone and iOS 8 on the

01:19:22   newer phone and I notice keyboard issues on my 5S.

01:19:26   Oh the 5S? Running 8?

01:19:29   Yeah, like the keyboard feels a little sticky to me.

01:19:32   Huh, that's interesting.

01:19:33   That's why I'm thinking it might have more to do with the OS and the newness of that

01:19:36   than it does with the hardware. I mean I could be wrong.

01:19:38   I don't know.

01:19:39   It could just be my setup.

01:19:40   I will say this too, I don't know if I mentioned this before in the show, but a lot of the little things in iOS 8 are addictive.

01:19:48   Like the reply to an iMessage from anywhere.

01:19:52   Yeah, yeah.

01:19:54   Is really, really nice.

01:19:56   It's tough because the...

01:19:58   That makes it hard to go back. Like, I feel like when the next beta comes out, I'll probably just install it on my day phone too.

01:20:05   It's funny because normally year to year the upgrade, it's tough to go back because there's some big new feature or there's something that you really like.

01:20:17   Day to day using iOS 8, other than the typing suggestion thing, I don't really notice. It just looks and feels like a slightly buggier iOS 7.

01:20:27   But it's got those nice notifications for replying is really, really nice.

01:20:32   I don't think I've used it that much.

01:20:34   once you start it's it's it really gets it just feels crazy to go back to not

01:20:40   being able to do it I do like getting text messages in in multiple devices

01:20:46   like I've noticed when people text rather than like people who don't have

01:20:49   iPhones it shows up on my iPad now and it kind of freaked me out oh see I don't

01:20:54   think I've noticed that yet because I get so few text messages from that

01:20:57   aren't blue yeah it was a one one one came yesterday and I'm looking at my

01:21:03   iPad and I see the name in there and I was like, "Wait, what? That person has an Android

01:21:07   phone. How is this even possible?"

01:21:08   Oh, and it shows up on your iPad? Well, then maybe some of those continuity features do

01:21:13   work iPhone to iPad, right? Because I think on the demo during the keynote, they showed

01:21:17   it showing up on your Mac.

01:21:20   They didn't show it showing up on your iPad.

01:21:22   Right. The assumption is that, yeah, I expected it to show up on my Mac. I never would have

01:21:24   expected it on my iPad. I mean, it makes perfect sense.

01:21:26   Yeah, I guess so.

01:21:27   But it was a surprise.

01:21:29   I wonder if that's-- it's got to be that they're

01:21:33   on the same Wi-Fi network.

01:21:36   Or maybe even Bluetooth.

01:21:38   It's still confusing to me, and I know that I've

01:21:41   listened to a few other podcasts.

01:21:43   Nobody's quite sure which of these features

01:21:45   are running over Bluetooth and which are running over Wi-Fi

01:21:47   and which are maybe using both, depending on availability.

01:21:52   Seems like a lot of this stuff, though,

01:21:53   depends upon the Bluetooth LT low energy Bluetooth le and the

01:22:01   cutoff on max for that is pretty recent so there's gonna be a lot

01:22:04   of people with semi recent max like two year old max two and a

01:22:09   half year old max who when they upgrade to Yosemite are going to

01:22:11   be bitching because they don't get these features. I think I

01:22:15   mean if it were me I would make it to where it ran over Bluetooth

01:22:18   unless Bluetooth wasn't available and then it ran over

01:22:20   Wi Fi because a lot of people turn Bluetooth off on their

01:22:22   phone to save battery. Right. Yeah, I feel like that trick is

01:22:26   gonna start it. It's getting to the point where enough of the

01:22:29   features depend upon it that, you know, I think most of I

01:22:34   because I usually keep Bluetooth off too, for the same reason,

01:22:36   but I feel like it's gonna get harder and harder to do that. Or

01:22:40   you're gonna keep running into Oh, why isn't this working? Oh,

01:22:43   duh, I turned Bluetooth off. Yeah, and I think enough people

01:22:45   are still doing it, though, it's gonna be Apple wouldn't want to

01:22:49   get those support calls. And if you could just fall back to

01:22:52   Wi-Fi, why not do it? I found out my son runs all of his iOS devices at maximum brightness

01:22:59   all the time. Do you need to maybe send him to Warby Parker? He knows that it's running

01:23:09   the battery down. In fact, every day, his iPhone and iPad both completely run out of

01:23:14   battery. And I said, "Hey, look, you've got brightness all the way up." He didn't say

01:23:19   compromise but he said i'm not going to it's he thinks it's gross to run the

01:23:23   display at less than full brightness i'd rather have the device be dead than have

01:23:27   it not at uh... maximum

01:23:34   which i kind of respect

01:23:36   uh... i'd i've respect is uh...

01:23:38   i don't know he's got a philosophy there any stick into it now

01:23:41   and that way with my mac my mac is always a full brightness effect that

01:23:44   auto brightness thing i never turn it off i really should

01:23:47   but if i'm in uh...

01:23:49   Like when, when I work out of the, the office,

01:23:51   if I pass in front of a window or at a certain time of day,

01:23:54   my screen starts to dim and it just drives me nuts.

01:23:57   I want it always as bright as it can possibly be unless I'm on a plane.

01:24:01   Yeah, exactly.

01:24:02   Like at the airplane mode for max should involve cutting your display brightness

01:24:07   down.

01:24:07   Well, you know, that,

01:24:09   that brings up something we didn't see in Yosemite and I expect to at some

01:24:11   point because you know, there's all this talk about, um,

01:24:14   will we ever get like Y max or some kind of LTE chip or something in a Mac? And the only

01:24:22   technically that wouldn't be that hard to do. It's just that software isn't really written for that.

01:24:26   And you're going to run through your data pretty quickly. Yeah, that's it seems like we used to,

01:24:31   who knows, maybe someday this year, they'll come out with that. Well, they already kind of have it

01:24:36   like your Mac can, can talk to your, your access point and find out that it's an access point

01:24:44   running over a data connection rather than running through like a regular wired connection.

01:24:51   That's a thing that they can, like if you've got one of those Karma devices or something,

01:24:56   it can report back to your computer that it's like a data network device.

01:25:01   Well, and there is the new feature in Yosemite and iOS 8 where once you've paired your phone

01:25:09   if your phone has hotspot capability,

01:25:13   you can turn it on entirely from your Mac

01:25:16   without interacting with your phone.

01:25:19   - Right, so it seems like there would have to be

01:25:21   some APIs in place or something to, I don't know,

01:25:24   so apps can know when they're in that mode

01:25:26   versus a different mode, so that things like

01:25:29   automatic downloading for certain apps gets turned off.

01:25:31   - Right, I remember, I always remember it was Marco,

01:25:34   who at WWDC a couple years ago was tethering

01:25:39   instead of paying for hotel Wi-Fi and it was like you know he got there on Sunday

01:25:47   Monday was the keynote and then the new episode of Mad Men hit iTunes he ran

01:25:53   through like he ran through like four gigabytes of LTE and got his like AT&T

01:25:59   account closed for the month because it downloaded an episode of Mad Men that's

01:26:03   fantastic right but that's exactly the sort of thing you don't want to do and I

01:26:07   I don't know how you, you know.

01:26:08   I do think that that's basically why Apple hasn't done it,

01:26:11   is that, you know, and I know, I guess that there's

01:26:14   opt-in things that apps could do to say,

01:26:17   hey, what kind of network am I on before I do this?

01:26:20   But I feel like there's too much software

01:26:21   that's already written that just says,

01:26:23   do I have a network connection?

01:26:24   If so, download this giant multi-gigabyte thing.

01:26:28   - Right, and I mean, we live in a world now

01:26:31   where there's a pretty good chance

01:26:32   that your data connection is coming through the air.

01:26:36   Like even if you're on wifi, there's a good chance that the thing on the other end of

01:26:39   that wifi is talking to sprint or talking to Verizon or whomever.

01:26:43   Yeah.

01:26:44   I think that the new feature, I think that I think they're probably, well, I wouldn't

01:26:48   say never, but my guess is they're never going to, they're not going to do LTE equipped Mac

01:26:54   books and that this new feature where you can turn on tethering from your iPhone right

01:27:00   from the menu in, in, uh, on your Mac is as close as they're going to get.

01:27:05   And that's pretty, that's close enough I think.

01:27:07   I was going to say, do you think that's good?

01:27:09   Do you think that's, or would you rather have a Mac that had a data connection?

01:27:12   Yeah, because you'd have to pay an extra 15 bucks a month at the minimum, depending

01:27:17   on, you know, like Verizon, I think it's like every time you add a device, you have,

01:27:20   we have like one shared family pool of data, but every time you add a device, you still

01:27:24   have to add 10 bucks a month.

01:27:25   So rather than add another 10 bucks a month, just, just let me use the phone because it's

01:27:30   going to be the same connection anyway.

01:27:31   Yeah, but with your phone, your Mac has a great big battery in it.

01:27:36   Yeah, I, you know.

01:27:39   But if you're on your Mac and have your phone, you can, I don't know.

01:27:42   Yeah, you can just charge off that. That's true. I suppose it all works out.

01:27:45   Yeah, I don't know. I think it's as close as they're gonna get.

01:27:48   It's probably as close as they're gonna get, and it's probably, in the real world, all I would ever need.

01:27:54   There's something nice about having all of this stuff on your Mac, like everything that you could have on your Mac, so it's its own thing.

01:28:00   the truth is my phone's always in my pocket anyway.

01:28:02   - All right, let me take a break

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01:31:11   it's that peace of mind thing where he in the back of his mind he knew if if

01:31:15   diddling around with what he had on his desk with backups and soup you know

01:31:19   SuperDuper clones and and stuff like that didn't work. The worst case scenario is he still had everything in backplace

01:31:26   It's like that that that peace of mind is to me

01:31:29   The key to backplace versus any other thing that you could do like time machine and super duper clones which are great, too

01:31:37   It's that peace of mind though of knowing that you've got this other thing off

01:31:41   site in the cloud really like yeah, it's

01:31:45   I've got the page open as soon as we're done recording

01:31:47   I'm gonna sign up for this because I had a when I was doing my whole Yosemite second partition thing

01:31:51   I had some some some very close calls with my own data and you know everything that's really important

01:31:57   I've got on Dropbox so I wouldn't be totally screwed

01:32:00   But it would take me a good day or two to like try to get my system back to the way it was and then

01:32:05   It's never gonna quite feel right

01:32:06   Yeah, and to just have all my my stuff out there in one place backed up. I just need to do it

01:32:12   I'm I'm stupid for not having done it already

01:32:14   You are

01:32:17   So, Google material design. This is the new design language that Google announced last week at I/O.

01:32:25   I don't think, I think, to summarize it, to me, I'm not a daily Android user. I mean, I try to stay up to date.

01:32:32   It's not as radical, like going from the previous look to this new one is not as big a leap as iOS 6 to iOS 7.

01:32:41   it's to me a little bit more like Yosemite.

01:32:45   You know, it's like their equivalent of Yosemite. It's

01:32:49   just a sort of cleaning up and modernization and getting rid of some

01:32:53   wonkiness. But I think it looks bad. It's the first time to me

01:32:57   that Android looks like from top to bottom that there's one cohesive

01:33:01   set of visual guidelines for how stuff should look.

01:33:05   I think even more than the visual update, which you're right, it's not a huge leap,

01:33:09   but what does feel like a big leap is the way they're documenting and talking about

01:33:13   the design.

01:33:14   Yeah, the design side.

01:33:15   But it's weird.

01:33:16   It's like at first I was very complimentary to it, and I still am, judging it mainly on

01:33:21   what it is they're recommending that developers do, which I think is all right and good.

01:33:27   And it's not just, hey, add animation to your user interface.

01:33:30   It's add animation in a way that increases understanding of what's going on.

01:33:36   So if you open something, it doesn't just appear on screen,

01:33:39   it opens from somewhere, like from the button

01:33:42   that you tapped to open it.

01:33:44   And then when you close it, it goes back down into the thing.

01:33:47   I was looking at the docs before we jumped on to do the show.

01:33:52   Just wanted to get my ducks in a row here.

01:33:54   And I noticed comparing the Android design

01:33:58   stuff about animation versus what is in the iOS 7

01:34:01   HIG, looking at them side by side.

01:34:03   In iOS 7, it says things that I'm not going to read it verbatim,

01:34:07   but it's more or less saying here's why you should use animations,

01:34:10   and here's the scenarios, and here's you want to be reserved,

01:34:13   and you want the animations to feel a certain way.

01:34:15   And the Google site is, OK, so here's the code to do an animation,

01:34:20   and here's the direction things could go.

01:34:22   And maybe there's some footnotes here and there

01:34:24   about why you would do a thing the way you do it.

01:34:26   But it's still very Google.

01:34:29   Yeah, but some of it to me is not very Google.

01:34:30   It's very, Mattias Duarte in particular.

01:34:35   I don't know him, I've never met him, but he seems a bit,

01:34:38   he's always struck me in his on-stage demeanor

01:34:42   as being a bit twee.

01:34:43   - Okay.

01:34:45   - Here's a phrase a lot of people have called this out.

01:34:49   It's very early on when you go to google.com/design

01:34:53   and start reading up on it.

01:34:54   It's somewhere on the first couple of pages,

01:34:56   and it says, "Material is the metaphor."

01:34:59   Now this is I'm reading.

01:35:01   A material metaphor is the unifying theory of a rationalized space and a system of motion.

01:35:07   Our material is grounded in tactile reality inspired by our study of paper and ink, yet

01:35:12   open to imagination and magic.

01:35:16   What does that mean?

01:35:17   That's a lot of, um...

01:35:21   What does it mean?

01:35:22   It means nothing, right?

01:35:23   That is, and in fact, it's...

01:35:26   It's like Don Draper wrote that.

01:35:28   It's actually...no, because if Don Draper wrote it, it would at least make you think

01:35:32   of something real.

01:35:34   Like, I think...

01:35:35   And not just flowery?

01:35:36   Right.

01:35:37   I feel like Don Draper would go nuts at that.

01:35:39   I feel like it's the opposite.

01:35:40   In fact, I think it's actually misleading, where the only thing you come out of that

01:35:45   is something-something, a study of paper and ink.

01:35:48   But it's not...the rules of their new interface are not grounded in the realities of paper

01:35:54   and ink.

01:35:55   Right?

01:35:56   a more thick ink bleed or paper texture and you know things bounce and move in ways that

01:36:04   paper and ink can't bounce and move you know that the you know you can't have it both ways

01:36:10   and say that you've based the metaphors on paper and ink and then increase the amount

01:36:15   of animation and stretching that you can do right it's actually false it's actually misleading

01:36:23   paper doesn't move like liquid. Right. I think you're better off reading the Google material

01:36:29   design docs, not reading the actual English and just looking at it. Pretend, you know, just like

01:36:34   lorem ipsum all of the descriptions and just go through and look at it visually. And it, to me,

01:36:42   when I did that, it makes way more sense than if you try to read it and understand what this

01:36:46   shit about a rationalized space and a system of motion. It's very hand-wavy. It's like somebody

01:36:53   Somebody thought way too hard about this. Yeah, they want to

01:36:56   make it seem like more than it is. Even during the keynote, I

01:37:00   forget the line, but the he said, the ink, the ink, oh, God,

01:37:06   I don't forget to call it that. But the the ink thing moves like

01:37:10   water. And like right there, it's a pick a metaphor. Is it

01:37:14   the anchors water? Choose one word. Yeah, you're already

01:37:17   confusing things for me.

01:37:18   I do think too. And I think it's interesting. It'd be

01:37:22   interesting to see how quickly Android developers pick up on these guidelines. Because to me,

01:37:29   every time I've tried Android, the Google stuff is okay. It doesn't make me happy and

01:37:36   it doesn't feel good, but it's okay. But then as soon as you get into third party apps,

01:37:40   it's just brutal. Just brutal in terms of aesthetics and layout. And part of this is

01:37:50   the advantage that a lot of the stuff doesn't come from the operating system

01:37:53   really

01:37:54   it's this google play services thing that you get from the

01:37:58   the google play store

01:37:59   and it's like the shared library

01:38:01   so that you

01:38:02   developers don't have to wait till everybody's running the new android l

01:38:07   you know version i don't think i call it five point over whatever

01:38:10   which is going to be years

01:38:12   but

01:38:14   uh... uh... a big chunk of existing android phones that won't get the

01:38:17   upgrade to the full

01:38:19   new OS

01:38:20   will get the new Google Play services which is the shared library and I think

01:38:24   that I think this interface stuff will all be distributed through there

01:38:28   so it's interesting I can't wait to see

01:38:30   because like with

01:38:31   with the iOS all the major developers every app that I can't remember how long

01:38:36   it took till every app I use on a daily basis was updated for iOS 7 but it

01:38:39   didn't take long

01:38:41   there's like one or two holdouts

01:38:43   unlike my first two home screens

01:38:46   I don't know that Android has developers who care about stuff like that.

01:38:49   Well, it seems like what they're trying to do,

01:38:52   looking at the google.com/design, this is pretty well put together.

01:38:57   They're trying really hard to make it look like they care about design.

01:39:01   And that sounds dismissive, but what I mean is they, they,

01:39:05   they're really trying to get across the importance of design to developers,

01:39:10   like to maybe they've, they've recognized that that lack of consistency,

01:39:13   There's even fragmentation within the design of third-party apps.

01:39:18   Maybe if they can bump up quality, or maybe if they can set an example, they can bump

01:39:21   up quality across the board.

01:39:23   It's interesting to me that Apple's approach to this is they create thoughtful designs

01:39:29   that people want to emulate, and then they go and document those designs, and people

01:39:32   will try to achieve that themselves, whereas Google will write documentation and make APIs.

01:39:38   Yeah, I did. I noticed that too that, and I watched that whole interminable keynote.

01:39:46   They didn't show as many apps as, anywhere near as many apps as Apple did when they showed

01:39:51   iOS 7. And, you know, I think it speaks to the way Apple works, where A, Apple did redesign

01:39:59   every single part of iOS, you know, all the apps, mail and calendar and, you know, everything.

01:40:07   And it's the way, let's face it, you can admit it, you've even said you've read the

01:40:12   HIG, but let's face it, you design stuff mostly by you look at what Apple's done,

01:40:18   you digest it and internalize, okay, here's the way it's supposed to be.

01:40:22   And then you kind of shoot from the hip, you go from your gut, and you know it, you don't

01:40:26   sit there with the HIG open.

01:40:28   And okay, it says 16 points between these two things, so I'll make these two 16 points.

01:40:34   I mean, so at some point, you go and you, you know, make sure

01:40:36   you've got everything like that, right. But when you've got

01:40:39   Photoshop open, you're creating art, not a description. Right.

01:40:44   And the I say this all the time, but the G and HIG is guidelines.

01:40:47   And I think of the HIG more as like the, the instructions that

01:40:51   come with a new device, or your toaster or something like you,

01:40:54   you might, like, you're gonna look through it, and you're

01:40:56   gonna get the basics. And you might refer to it later. But

01:40:59   it's not, you don't leave it sitting next to your toaster. So

01:41:01   that every time you make a toast, you read it.

01:41:02   Same thing with like Strunk and White or any other writing guidelines. For writers,

01:41:07   a writer doesn't sit there with, you know, the Chicago Manual of Style open, and for each sentence

01:41:13   look it up. How am I supposed to structure the sentence? The writer just writes, and then every

01:41:18   once in a while you run into a sticky situation, or your editor will say, or somebody who's read

01:41:23   it, will point to a sentence and say, "Well, isn't this ambiguous here?" You know, and then you think,

01:41:27   "Oh, I do need to look at the guidelines, you know, let me see." But while you're actually writing,

01:41:32   you're in a completely different mode. You're not referring to a set of rules. You've already

01:41:36   internalized them. Right. And either you have that that structure, that framework in your head,

01:41:41   or you don't. Right. And it did seem like Google. And I think, you know, I think part of it is just

01:41:45   the way Google is different than Apple. And part of it, too, though, is that they're aware that

01:41:49   their developer base is different. And I think your point there about internalizing it, you're

01:41:55   right. And that I think is what's telling here is that Google is setting this up to where I mean,

01:42:01   I mean, if you're not a good designer,

01:42:04   then no amount of documentation

01:42:05   is gonna make you a good designer.

01:42:07   - Right. - I think if I have

01:42:09   some kind of objection or if I have a strong opinion

01:42:11   about the way Google's doing things here,

01:42:13   it's that they're sort of presenting it as if like,

01:42:15   okay, just read this and now you'll be good at it.

01:42:18   - Yeah, and I think that they're probably wrong

01:42:20   on that part, I think, but obviously I think you and I,

01:42:24   I'll even use the word biased,

01:42:25   we're biased in that regard.

01:42:27   But I do think we as a whole collectively

01:42:29   have talked a lot over the years about how the average iOS user is different from the

01:42:35   average Android user. And that's one of the reasons why raw market share comparisons are

01:42:42   less valid than in many other contexts. Because if the users have different expectations,

01:42:50   different reasons for buying the device, if they spend different amounts of money, if

01:42:54   they have different amounts of education, if they have different income levels, if they

01:42:59   live in different places if they tend to live in different countries. It makes a big difference

01:43:04   on the value of them collectively as can you build a business just addressing these developers.

01:43:12   I think less spoken about, but maybe even just as important, is that I think there's

01:43:16   very clearly a demographic difference between Android developers and iOS developers in the

01:43:22   same way that there was always a difference between Windows developers and Mac developers.

01:43:26   Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I think it's a very similar difference.

01:43:30   You know, and that there'll be some companies will design, you know, have the same teams and have designers who do this make an app that looks as similar as we can on iOS and Android.

01:43:41   And there's developed, you know, developers and designers who are working on both. And I'm sure I know I've read blog posts from some of them, there are designers, you know, talented designers who are either fans of Android or just the nature of their job is that's where they're at.

01:43:55   their job is that's where they're working. I'm not trying

01:43:58   to make the, you know, I'm not jumping to any kind of extreme

01:44:01   conclusion that there's no good designers working on Android.

01:44:03   But I think I feel very confident saying that most good

01:44:08   mobile UI designers are either iOS only or iOS first.

01:44:13   Right. I think that's a some of that is that there's the moving

01:44:17   target problem with Android where which device which set of

01:44:23   API's are you designing for? Yeah, which version of the OS

01:44:26   you're designing for? Are you designing for a hardware

01:44:28   keyboard? Are you designing for software keyboard? Is there like

01:44:30   a jog dial thing on the side that you use to navigate? Or is

01:44:33   it all touchscreen and for it's all it's even out a little bit.

01:44:36   It's even that a lot because I Android, especially at the phone

01:44:39   level has unified they've gotten rid of all those things, like

01:44:43   all those things that used to be claimed to be a strength of the

01:44:47   platform, that some of the devices, you know, if you want

01:44:49   a hardware keyboard, you can have a hardware keyboard, if you

01:44:52   want a jog dial, you can have a jog dial. Well, none of the

01:44:54   phones have those things anymore. They're just

01:44:56   and that that's good for everybody. But it means that

01:45:00   there's there's still there's still some moving target stuff

01:45:02   for for Android hardware where a designer for Apple platform, you

01:45:06   kind of like you know, the screen size and you know, the

01:45:09   resolution and you know how, how big a thing needs to be and how

01:45:12   you hold it and where your thumb ends up. And and that plus the

01:45:17   fact that most users, I'm gonna get in trouble for saying this,

01:45:21   but by and large, paid software on Android

01:45:25   does not sell as well as on iOS.

01:45:27   - Yeah, I'm not gonna get in trouble for that.

01:45:29   I think everybody agrees with that.

01:45:31   - That was the more political version

01:45:32   of what I wanted to say.

01:45:33   But it's, nobody is gonna spend a ton of time

01:45:37   designing software, nobody's gonna spend the money

01:45:39   to pay a great designer to make software

01:45:42   that nobody's gonna buy.

01:45:43   - Yeah, I can see that.

01:45:45   - It does make me wonder, so for apps

01:45:47   that are always gonna be free, like a major,

01:45:50   an MLB app that is, I mean, you pay for it, but it's like,

01:45:53   it's so mass market that it doesn't matter that there's no inherent iOS versus

01:45:58   Android bias there necessarily.

01:45:59   Or for something that is like maybe the major league soccer app where you just,

01:46:04   if you're a fan, you're going to download it and it's free and it's,

01:46:08   the app exists to help get you excited about a different thing.

01:46:12   Like they make their money elsewhere.

01:46:14   You look like a Twitter app or a Facebook app.

01:46:16   it surprises me that those companies aren't spending more

01:46:20   on Android design.

01:46:22   Me too.

01:46:23   I don't know why.

01:46:24   Here's a thing that I'm wondering about.

01:46:26   So I've noticed, and I think that the new Google material

01:46:30   design is largely in line with it,

01:46:32   is like when you look at the Google Maps app for iOS.

01:46:35   Do you have the Google Maps app?

01:46:36   Yeah, yeah, that's my daily use Maps app.

01:46:40   It looks-- it wasn't designed-- that Google Maps iOS

01:46:44   was not designed in isolation from this material design.

01:46:47   It's not exactly the same, but it's, you know,

01:46:50   the big difference is Apple has, you know,

01:46:54   and it comes down to like what we talked about an hour ago

01:46:57   about how Yosemite and iOS 7 look related,

01:47:00   but they don't look like the same thing.

01:47:01   Whereas material design, they're flat out saying

01:47:05   it's meant to look the same on a Chromebook

01:47:08   and on a tablet and on a phone.

01:47:12   And I think implicitly, because some of the screenshots they've shown showed apps with an iOS status bar, not an Android status bar.

01:47:20   And that I think that they're, they're presenting this as a design language that you could use for iOS apps, too.

01:47:26   And I think that they themselves have sort of been doing that, that their apps to me have always, you know, started looking a little bit more like Moonman iOS apps.

01:47:35   That's gonna be a little tricky because they would have to give out some kind of I don't know framework or SDK to make those

01:47:42   Apis work on iPhone. Well, I don't know if they're I don't know if they're gonna mean for third-party

01:47:46   Developers to do that or if it's just something they're doing themselves internally

01:47:49   But don't you think like when I look at maps like they've got like a back button that uses an arrow instead of a chevron

01:47:55   And it doesn't

01:47:57   It doesn't slide from the side

01:47:59   iOS styles Apple's relationship with Google right now is such that I write that a lot of that off as just Google saying screw you know

01:48:06   The Google is like we're just gonna do our own thing. We don't care if it looks like an iPhone app

01:48:10   But it doesn't you know

01:48:12   It's close enough. They're related enough. It's not like Windows Phone which Windows Phone is a very different metaphor

01:48:19   Right, right. It would really stick out whereas this is two takes on the same basic idea

01:48:27   Yeah, and I think I mean like I said Google Maps is my daily use Maps app and I don't find myself

01:48:31   Thinking that I don't hate it. I don't feel grossed out by its Googleness, but it doesn't look like an iOS 7 app, right?

01:48:40   And I wonder like I feel like they're going that route with like Gmail and stuff, too

01:48:45   Because that's the other app. That's the one app

01:48:48   They did show off in the keynote and I have to say the new Gmail app looks

01:48:52   so much better than

01:48:55   Then it used to look

01:48:57   Yeah, I haven't seen it. Yeah, but I you know, it's I

01:49:01   Don't understand the people who use the the Gmail web interface or the like I just used the stock mail app

01:49:07   Yeah, well the new Gmail app looks a lot more it used to icon Android

01:49:11   It looked like a web app and just even though it was a native app

01:49:14   It just looked just just the spacing the typography was just horrible. Yeah

01:49:19   Really really bad

01:49:22   Last thing I wanted to talk about

01:49:25   and this is from Iowa, is that in broad terms, and I guess I want to write about it on Daring Firewall too,

01:49:30   this is the thing I've been thinking about ever since, is that there's all sorts of details,

01:49:34   and I love to examine the details, you know, we could spend the whole show just talking about the

01:49:38   difference between Helvetica and Roboto font. But if you zoom out, take the 10,000 foot perspective,

01:49:46   it's kind of remarkable, and I think unremarked upon just how similarly targeted Google and

01:49:54   Apple's initiatives are, right? A tech company talking about, you know, set-top devices that

01:50:02   run the mobile OS and have an app store and wearables and watchables and health tracking

01:50:09   and heart rate monitors and footstep monitors and an API for apps to track those things.

01:50:17   You know, and I know that the Apple wrist wearable is still a rumor, not a thing, but

01:50:21   I mean it's it's one of those rumors that has a lot a lot of smoke and everybody's talking about it and people have been

01:50:26   Talking about an improved Apple TV with an app store for years

01:50:29   The health and fitness tracking Apple announced the you know, the health API's home automation

01:50:36   They're both talking about that Google bot nest Apple, you know flat-out came out with iOS 8 and said, you know here

01:50:43   We were adding these things and we're working with all these companies to set your garage door opener and you know

01:50:50   your thermostats and whatever can all be hooked up. Notably, Nest was not on that

01:50:54   list. Right. Very noticeably. Um, it's all the same sort of basic ideas, right?

01:51:00   A car integration. There's another obvious one.

01:51:02   And you can say that all this stuff is obvious, but they're both,

01:51:05   all those things are on both companies' agendas.

01:51:08   How much of that do you think is me too?

01:51:12   How much of it do you think is that's just where, like even in a vacuum,

01:51:16   both companies would have ended up here.

01:51:17   I don't know. I find it remarkable. To me, it's very remarkable that they're all...

01:51:22   all of those things I just mentioned are all on... are both on both companies' agendas.

01:51:27   I mean, because I think... I think I know enough to say... I don't know enough to say

01:51:31   that Apple is coming out with a wearable device that you wear on your wrist. But I do know

01:51:38   enough. I can say with certainty that they have investigated it thoroughly and that if

01:51:42   they don't, it's because they rejected it. That they, you know, that they had people

01:51:46   who I know were working on a wearable for your wrist.

01:51:50   So they at least looked at it.

01:51:52   All of those things, right?

01:51:55   Watches or I call them wrist wearables

01:51:57   'cause I'm not convinced that the ones

01:52:01   that are gonna be successful are gonna be watch-like.

01:52:03   But let's say something you wear on your wrist,

01:52:04   health fitness tracking, home automation, car integration,

01:52:07   TV set tops, all the same things.

01:52:10   I just find that remarkable that both companies

01:52:12   have their sights set on all those things.

01:52:15   - Oh, I mean, what else even is there?

01:52:16   what else could they get into? Yeah. I don't know if it's,

01:52:20   if it's just that they're all sets obvious ideas for expansion or

01:52:24   I almost see it as a by-product of the relationship between Apple and Google

01:52:29   now where they're so like, I, for a long time, you'd say that they were friends.

01:52:33   And I think we might be moving either in the middle of,

01:52:38   or right at the end of frenemies territory. And it's about to get ugly. Yeah.

01:52:41   I would say that we're past that. I think they're in arch rival territory.

01:52:44   i really think it's already there yeah i do i think it's been there ever since

01:52:48   the

01:52:48   the

01:52:49   i think it's been there for years ever since the steve jobs internal apple

01:52:53   thing that don't be evil is bullshit

01:52:55   you know i think it's been that way since then

01:52:58   i mean outwardly like the way they behave to each other because even

01:53:02   even after that it was still the maps app was powered by google yeah but only

01:53:06   because it had to be and they switched you know they switched before probably a

01:53:09   year before they were ready but had to do it anyway because they couldn't get

01:53:13   an extra year you know it was very contentious you know I know I don't know

01:53:20   I still don't know exactly I'd love to know in hindsight how much of it was and

01:53:25   I know for stall took the blame for that for the company you know the the

01:53:28   seriously lacking in quality of it and as it debuted and I think that the gist

01:53:33   I don't know this for a fact I think this this is all third hand but the gist

01:53:37   is that that that the the maps team led the rest of Apple to think no it's not

01:53:44   going to be as good as Google Maps it's gonna be problems we're gonna take a hit

01:53:47   on this but that here's where we are you know the bar if a hundred percent is as

01:53:51   good as Google Maps we're at 75 and you know given all the other considerations

01:53:57   you know that's why we should go ahead and do it now because we're only going

01:54:01   to get from 75 to 100 once we have real-world usage data and can improve it

01:54:05   But then when it shipped it was like at 40 on a scale of 1 to 100 and that there was less than what the internal team had promised even if what they had promised was not as good as Google Maps.

01:54:16   Like nobody in Apple, nobody thought, "Oh, we're going to make this transition and it's going to be just as good."

01:54:21   I mean everybody knew. You could just look at certain maps and see it didn't have as much detail.

01:54:25   And not even that, but transit, transit directions.

01:54:29   Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. Which, you know, they're only adding now, right? Isn't that

01:54:35   in iOS 8, or am I misremembering?

01:54:38   If it is, I missed it.

01:54:39   But obviously they knew that they were losing out on transit directions.

01:54:42   Which, by the way, is the reason that I switched using Google Maps as my maps app.

01:54:46   Yeah, that's huge.

01:54:47   I live in New York, I need to know which train to take.

01:54:49   Yeah, absolutely. You know, if you live in an area where you depend on public transportation,

01:54:53   it's, you know, like night or day, right? It's like having a weather app that doesn't

01:54:56   even show your location.

01:54:57   Well, it is. It's true. You know, like, I think like when Dark Sky shipped, it was like,

01:55:02   I think they only had like a US data source. So I know there have been some weather apps

01:55:06   that only have US weather. Well, then, you know, doesn't matter how cool the app is,

01:55:10   if you live in Europe, it's, you know, worthless. You know, if you take the subway to get to

01:55:17   get places in New York City, Apple Maps isn't going to help you at all. But I'm curious

01:55:23   whether if you know and I think it was a problem for forestall and and you know

01:55:27   in terms of accountability that it wasn't as good as it was supposed to

01:55:34   have been and as they were led to have been but I don't know that they still

01:55:38   wouldn't have switched at the same time anyway it's just that maybe they would

01:55:41   have positioned it different marketing wise to set the expectations lower

01:55:45   because they were in such a tight spot in terms of Google demanding really deep

01:55:51   access to users personal location data in exchange for the things that Apple

01:55:58   really needed from Google which were vector based maps instead of bitmap maps

01:56:02   and drive driving directions you know and the thing that you really need for a

01:56:07   good Maps database is data and they they even said like the more you use it the

01:56:12   better the service is gonna get right it's I think maybe in in a perfect or

01:56:16   semi-perfect world they would have maybe because it like what else did they have

01:56:20   have that wound up being way better after more people used it

01:56:24   because of data Siri. Yeah. So maybe they would have like

01:56:27   launched this alongside the maps app is like the like new maps

01:56:31   beta.

01:56:31   I don't know how they could have done it if their relationship

01:56:35   was better. But given the state of their relationships, I

01:56:37   actually think even knowing how bad the initial version of maps

01:56:40   was going to be that they did the right thing. I think the

01:56:43   wrong thing was that they didn't present they didn't lower

01:56:46   expectations. And they could have even been more forthright

01:56:49   about the fact that it was contentious, you know, that, you know, you know,

01:56:53   I don't know, there's some way that they could have presented it.

01:56:55   That would have lowered expectations accordingly. And yeah, it's a,

01:56:58   it's tough to sell it that way though. Yeah.

01:57:00   But it's better than what they went through though. I mean,

01:57:02   you can say that's tough to sell, but it's a lot tougher to say, wow,

01:57:06   new maps is going to be awesome.

01:57:07   And then you got the maps and your house wasn't listed.

01:57:10   I just mean that, uh, it's, it's,

01:57:13   I'm trying to imagine Apple getting up and like, what do they say?

01:57:16   How do they point out how contentious the relationship was?

01:57:18   maybe that they couldn't get into, but somehow they could have said, look, we're switching

01:57:24   to this and it's going to protect, you know, they could emphasize the protection of privacy,

01:57:29   which is true. It's absolutely, you know, there's no spin involved there. You could

01:57:33   say it's spin by emphasizing the privacy protection. Because that was the bottom line, is that

01:57:39   Google was demanding access to user identifiable personal location data in exchange for all

01:57:46   all of the things that Apple needed to improve maps using Google Maps.

01:57:50   And there was no going forward from that.

01:57:55   And they had to announce the switch.

01:57:57   They couldn't announce the switch mid-year.

01:57:59   The contract was up.

01:58:01   I think to renew it, Google might have asked for more than one year.

01:58:04   It was either do it now when the contract's up or go through the pain of having all this

01:58:12   succumb to Google's demands for user data, which they weren't going to do.

01:58:16   You know, it's an interesting point, the contentiousness of the relationship,

01:58:20   because people like you and me knew that. But that's not everyone who uses an iPhone.

01:58:26   No. Right. And Apple knows that and doesn't expect for Apple's internal negotiation problems to be,

01:58:32   you know, that's Apple's, Apple knows that that's their problem, not the user's problem. But,

01:58:36   you know, that's an instance where it effectively became the user's problem.

01:58:40   It's an interesting thought experiment that I go back and think about, you know, just

01:58:45   yesterday was the seven-year anniversary of when the first iPhone shipped.

01:58:49   And think, you know, I don't know why everybody was making a—I mean, I even posted a few

01:58:52   photos comparing the two, but, you know, why is seven a big deal?

01:58:56   I'm not quite sure, but, you know, June 29th is like iPhone day.

01:59:01   And it's interesting to go back to seven years ago and think about how, you know, Google

01:59:06   was a partner in the iPhone, right?

01:59:08   Eric Schmidt was called on stage in the keynote where it was introduced and it was all hugs and smiles

01:59:13   He was a board member at Apple and there was this whole look

01:59:17   We'll make the awesome device and Google will provide the awesome, you know

01:59:21   cloud services like Maps and YouTube

01:59:24   It's interesting to think where we'd be today if that relationship had stayed like that and Google hadn't gone into Android and

01:59:32   built their own competitor to the iPhone and was the you know

01:59:37   There was more of a happy relationship there

01:59:39   I don't think it would have lasted anyway because I think even without Android Google would have demanded the same

01:59:44   It wouldn't have changed Google's thirst for

01:59:47   privacy invasive

01:59:50   Collection of user data. You could argue that it's a good thing even yeah

01:59:54   I mean it may be annoying for Apple that Google did what they did with Android but at the same time that

01:59:59   Relationship has evolved where that I mean the rivalry of that relationship is such that

02:00:04   we're going to win out in a big way. If both companies are making all of these different

02:00:09   kinds of things at the same time, that means we as consumers get a choice. And we've got

02:00:16   two very powerful companies with a lot of technology behind them fighting out who can

02:00:21   make the better thing.

02:00:22   Yeah, I don't know. I kind of feel like Google's business model existed in Apple's blind spot

02:00:28   at the time. Like, Microsoft, Apple understood, right? They're going to make a competing

02:00:34   platform and they're going to sell it for $15 a pop to OEMs. You know, they

02:00:38   understood that. They didn't use the same business model, but I think that they saw

02:00:43   like their potential competitors for the iPhone as being companies like RIM, you

02:00:49   know, making their own, doing the, you know, the same thing as Apple, making the

02:00:53   whole widget, the OS, the services, the devices, and something like Microsoft

02:00:58   where somebody would sell a commercial system to OEMs for a profit. I think the

02:01:03   whole idea of we're just going to give it away for free and sell things at cost and

02:01:09   make it up by collecting user data and using that data to sell advertising. I think it

02:01:14   existed in a blind spot for Apple.

02:01:16   So you think that just they wouldn't have expected Google to make this kind of stuff?

02:01:21   Yeah, I don't think that Apple in 2007 when they'd agreed, hey, you know, because

02:01:27   the stories that have come out since are that the Maps app was a relative late edition,

02:01:32   was like, hey, what if we did this? What if we had maps and we have GPS and we can triangulate

02:01:36   location with cell towers and we could get a really cool, what if we work with Google and

02:01:42   get a really cool version of maps? And it was cool, right? It was a really, you know, that was

02:01:46   one of those things that made the iPhone not a phone. You know, it was like this new thing. You

02:01:53   had live updating maps in your hand. It was amazing. You know, I didn't know that it was

02:01:58   was a late edition, but that makes sense.

02:01:59   And it shows that because the first iPhone didn't have GPS.

02:02:03   - Yeah, yeah, it didn't have GPS.

02:02:04   I think it was entirely cell phone triangulation and Wi-Fi,

02:02:08   you know, the network of known Wi-Fi locations.

02:02:12   'Cause I remember with the early one too,

02:02:14   if you had like a new Wi-Fi, like I used to carry around

02:02:19   a little airport express, like in my suitcase,

02:02:23   I guess I still take it some places,

02:02:25   but you know, that way I would hook up to the hotel,

02:02:27   instead of using the hotel's wifi,

02:02:28   I'd use the ethernet and use the hotel's ethernet and set up my own wifi. Uh,

02:02:32   the iPhone had no idea where I was until I like got off the wifi and got on the

02:02:37   cellular. Um, I don't know. I don't know where,

02:02:42   where we would be to think that that was a shipping thing. I mean,

02:02:46   maybe that's the thing about the seven years is looking back and thinking like,

02:02:50   how primitive was this thing? It was so advanced at the time,

02:02:54   but from in only seven years it's become, I don't know,

02:02:58   almost a little folksy to think about an iPhone shipping

02:03:04   without GPS.

02:03:05   - Yeah, or with a truly shitty camera.

02:03:07   It's crazy.

02:03:10   It was like, it shipped with like a really nice

02:03:14   cell phone camera, and what I used to think of

02:03:16   as cell phone camera quality.

02:03:17   'Cause I had to do this thing, 'cause yesterday

02:03:21   I took photos, side by side photos with the 5S

02:03:23   the original iPhone. And I had to figure out how to get the photos from the old iPhone

02:03:31   to my new iPhone to post them to Twitter. And I didn't want to go through the Mac. I

02:03:35   was just sitting there watching soccer games and stuff. And I couldn't figure it out because

02:03:39   I couldn't send text messages because I didn't have an SM. I didn't have a SIM card for the

02:03:44   old iPhone. It was running an old version of iOS that didn't have iMessage yet. I was

02:03:50   I was like, "How the hell do I do that?"

02:03:51   So of course, the old reliable email,

02:03:53   you can always email yourself something.

02:03:55   - Yeah.

02:03:56   - And I went to email the photo

02:03:59   and just emailed it to myself,

02:04:01   but it didn't ask me,

02:04:02   "Do you wanna send small, medium, or large?"

02:04:04   It just sent it.

02:04:05   And I was like, "Oh, that's weird, I don't remember that."

02:04:07   And then it showed up on my new iPhone

02:04:09   a couple seconds later,

02:04:10   and the one was only like 109K.

02:04:12   I was like, "Ah, it shrunk it."

02:04:14   And then I realized, nope, that's how small the photos were.

02:04:18   That was-- it didn't ask because the full-size photo was

02:04:21   only like 200 kilobytes.

02:04:23   It's tiny.

02:04:24   Yeah, it was crazy.

02:04:25   All right, last thing.

02:04:26   I know we've gone long.

02:04:26   This is long even by talk show standards.

02:04:28   But to me, it's emblematic of the differences.

02:04:32   The car stuff isn't shipping yet.

02:04:35   The home automation stuff isn't really shipping yet.

02:04:37   I know that there's some new stuff with Nest.

02:04:41   The one thing that's started to ship are the watches, right?

02:04:44   And now, last week at I/O, they shipped the first two Google Wear

02:04:49   watches.

02:04:50   And they had on site--

02:04:52   they didn't give them to people yet-- the prototypes of the--

02:04:56   or not prototypes, but early production models of the Moto

02:04:58   360, which is the round one.

02:05:02   It doesn't even use the whole circle.

02:05:05   Yeah, at the bottom, the thing at the bottom, right.

02:05:09   It's not actually round.

02:05:10   There's actually-- I thought it was a bug,

02:05:12   and then I read the thing.

02:05:14   So if you look at the pictures of the Moto 360,

02:05:16   at the very bottom of the front face,

02:05:18   like at the 6 o'clock area, there's a small black bar.

02:05:23   It's almost like a bottom letterboxing

02:05:25   of a few pixels at the bottom of the screen.

02:05:27   And apparently that's a feature, not a bug.

02:05:31   It's where the display-- they call them the display drivers

02:05:34   are?

02:05:34   I don't even know what that means, display drivers.

02:05:36   But I guess it's--

02:05:38   in other words, for some technical reason,

02:05:40   they couldn't make the full display round.

02:05:42   I'm going to call that a bug.

02:05:45   It looks like somebody screwed up cropping an Instagram picture.

02:05:47   Right.

02:05:48   Well, who, when you settle on that, who says, "Well, good enough."

02:05:55   It looks like a joke.

02:05:57   Faith Corpi had tweeted that it looks like something that would come out of a plastic

02:06:01   egg.

02:06:03   To me, everything about those watches emblemizes the difference between Google and Apple and

02:06:10   google fans and apple fans you know i don't mean it like i don't wanna

02:06:15   fans may not be the but people who tend to be drawn to apple products versus

02:06:18   people who tend to be drawn to google products and it's a sensibility

02:06:22   yeah and it just emphasizes how

02:06:25   different we are and in the fact like for example

02:06:29   the reaction from people who like google stuff

02:06:32   and maybe they're you know the people who still are optimistic at google

02:06:36   Glass is going to be a thing. Or maybe they own a pair of Google Glass. And they attended

02:06:41   IO, and they were there, and they got to choose. They gave you either the Samsung or the LG

02:06:46   rectangular watch. And they said, "Later in the year, we'll give you the Moto 360 one

02:06:52   too." And they had the 360s there that you could play with in demo mode, but you couldn't

02:06:57   take it with you. Those people, and they say, "I like it. I've got my Samsung gear live

02:07:02   I like it. It's it's nice. But I you know, wow the the motors the moto 360 one is even nicer

02:07:08   I can't wait for it. Right you were already admit that the one that that shipping is

02:07:13   So horrible that they already want the next one. It's the name. I keep laughing at the name

02:07:18   How do you call something a 360 when it doesn't form a full circle?

02:07:21   I never even thought of that should be like the the moto 340

02:07:26   For the I don't even know how many degrees that is, but it's probably like maybe it's like 300 the moto 300

02:07:32   I think that it's such a perfect example of the Steve Jobs adage that you can't start with the technology

02:07:39   And work your way back to the product. You have to start with the design and

02:07:45   Then find the technology to make it work that they've gone about this completely different

02:07:50   In fact, they even said so on stage like the words where it's now possible to make a full-powered

02:07:56   Computer that you can wear on your body

02:07:59   That the technology now exists to make a you know, a little watch sized or vaguely, you know

02:08:04   Maybe even if it's a big-ass watch but you can make a computer this size that you can wear on your wrist

02:08:08   Yeah, I would never say and so here it is here. We've made one, you know as opposed to

02:08:12   Coming up with here's something you would really want to do and it would and that you would want to wear and then we figured

02:08:19   Out the technology to make it work. It's like completely backwards. It's very different. I will eat my hat if

02:08:27   Apple unveils something in the fall that even vaguely resembles these these watches defined vaguely resemble. Well that it's

02:08:34   It I actually have the thing right here it's a Kickstarter project actually forget the name of it

02:08:40   It's not printed on the watch band

02:08:43   But it was a it's a watch band you could buy to put an iPad the square iPod nano in oh

02:08:47   Yeah, was it the tick tock or something? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was it and they sold him in Apple stores, too

02:08:53   Yeah, and it was a Kickstarter project and I bought it and and for strapping and I little square iPod nano onto your wrist

02:09:01   It was great and it's a nice rubber band and I've worn it for listening to music or podcasts while running with an iPod nano

02:09:08   It's great. You put the iPod nano on your wrist and there you go

02:09:11   Way better

02:09:15   Than strapping a full-size iPhone on your arm with an armband because iPod nano is very small

02:09:22   But these, the Galaxy Gear things are exactly as graceful and elegant and good looking as an iPod

02:09:30   Nano strapped to a third party. I think that was never designed to be a watch strapped to your

02:09:35   wrist. Now technically there's obviously big improvements where the iPod Nano didn't have any

02:09:40   kind of internet access or live connection to your phone. It's an independent device and now they've

02:09:45   got notifications and stuff like that. So there's a big difference in terms of the actual wireless

02:09:52   wireless thing. But just in terms of aesthetics, I just can't believe that that's what they've

02:09:56   come up with, you know, and that the interface is no better than flipping around a bunch

02:10:02   of screens. In fact, the interface is worse because they don't have any kind of home screen

02:10:06   on the watch. It's like you've always got these cards that you flick and there's no

02:10:10   sense of where. I find it very confusing in terms of like spatial navigation. At least

02:10:16   the iPod Nano has a home screen where you squeeze down and you've got a grid of apps

02:10:21   like iOS, which is still kind of a weird iOS application. Yeah,

02:10:25   it just doesn't quite fit on a screen that small. Yeah, I do. I

02:10:28   like the the mode of three. I keep laughing at that name. It

02:10:32   as a as a tech demo or as a, you know, if you saw it in a movie,

02:10:36   and the hero had one that actually did use the full

02:10:39   circle, you'd think that was kind of cool. As like movie UI

02:10:43   that would look cool. In the real world with the bar at the

02:10:47   bottom when it's weirdly letterboxed like that it just it

02:10:49   It feels like a joke.

02:10:50   It feels like this is a half-baked product

02:10:52   and they're just trying to get it out the door

02:10:54   so that they can get interest up for the next one.

02:10:57   It's more about an investment

02:10:58   in a hope that that kind of works out.

02:11:00   But I just don't see how batteries gonna work out.

02:11:02   I don't see how the UI, like I don't know,

02:11:06   and maybe it's me just not thinking through it enough,

02:11:07   but I've not seen one of these things

02:11:09   with a good user experience that would stand up.

02:11:13   - Yeah, and I have a pebble,

02:11:15   which it seems it's broadly similar.

02:11:19   I mean, the Google Now stuff is a total difference,

02:11:23   but I don't give Google my personal information.

02:11:25   I don't put my flight information into Google.

02:11:29   The demos are always about goddamn flights, too.

02:11:31   And it's like, you know, I don't know.

02:11:36   I've never had a flight on my watch before,

02:11:37   but I've never missed a flight.

02:11:39   So I don't know that that's how great a demo that is.

02:11:41   Maybe I need that.

02:11:43   But I've had a device paired with my phone that

02:11:47   shows all notifications from my phone on my wrist and makes my wrist

02:11:51   buzz when my phone gets a notification and it's doesn't

02:11:54   doesn't seem helpful at all

02:11:56   it's uh... it doesn't

02:11:57   doesn't good for me at all

02:11:59   idea i mean

02:12:00   i don't think this is going to be any

02:12:02   more popular than public i don't think just showing notifications on your wrist

02:12:06   is useful

02:12:07   i do kind of like the idea of

02:12:10   uh... the women's watch that you think to the other day right the activity i

02:12:14   don't even i supposed to have that's how i was

02:12:16   The only thing I don't like about the thing is its name.

02:12:18   It's, it's a nice looking watch, right?

02:12:22   It's not awful.

02:12:23   Even the website, it's all attractive, fashionable people doing interesting

02:12:27   things and there's like, the woman is even swimming on the thing.

02:12:29   And as a wee bit of Bluetooth and it does, uh, foot or distance tracking.

02:12:35   I think it has a swim mode too.

02:12:36   So you can, and I know that I think I've seen from other people who

02:12:41   were activity trackers that swimming's always been a little difficult.

02:12:44   uh...

02:12:46   so you just you look at it though and it it it strikes you as

02:12:49   uh... it's

02:12:50   it's not the new there's no digital display right that is truly analog

02:12:53   but maybe that's a smarter idea maybe there's something to be done with that

02:12:56   yeah i don't know if it's good for everybody like to me i guess that i i

02:12:59   think it sells well as a typical four hundred dollar watch which is in in

02:13:02   apples terms means not at all but in terms of you know people who make watches

02:13:07   could be fine little side business you know is it is it a

02:13:10   sort of thing that a hundred million people are gonna buy no

02:13:13   I don't think there's any chance of that.

02:13:14   Is it something a couple of 10,000 people would buy?

02:13:17   Sure.

02:13:18   Well, it kind of makes me wonder because it's just, I mean, it's a watch and it's got

02:13:21   that dial and the dial is just, the needle moves from zero to a hundred and that's

02:13:26   the kind of thing that anybody, any watchmaker could add that feature.

02:13:31   Yeah.

02:13:32   I could see that becoming like a new, you know, that those sort of features becoming

02:13:37   a bigger part of traditional watch design.

02:13:40   Yeah.

02:13:41   It could be that the next Seamaster has that thing in it.

02:13:43   that would be deceived like a Rolex would be different because a Rolex isn't

02:13:46   electronic at all that's to me like a mechanical watch might be cut out of all

02:13:51   of this because there's no electronics at all which is sort of the the aesthetic

02:13:56   beauty of a mechanical watch but like the withings watch is a quartz watch and

02:14:00   it takes a standard watch battery but it has to be electronic to do any kind of

02:14:06   Bluetooth yeah but most of the watches most people buy in the world are quartz

02:14:12   watches, not mechanical watches. So I still think that the highest end, the mechanical

02:14:18   automatic watches are still not going to be part of this, but the vast majority of traditional

02:14:23   watches are quartz and could be. I think it's time, but I think that's part of, I think

02:14:29   the fact that it runs, it's advertised to run for a year on a standard watch battery

02:14:33   is part of that whole, hey, design is how it works. Like not having to worry about the

02:14:38   battery more than once a year is an enormous difference from the gear watches, which by

02:14:45   all accounts so far need to be charged daily. Like asking someone to add another device

02:14:51   that you have to charge every day is, I think it's an enormous barrier.

02:14:56   And in some cases, a device that would take up another IP address might not matter for

02:15:02   you or me at home, but for corporate types.

02:15:04   Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. Did they need an IP address? I thought it

02:15:07   it was all Bluetooth.

02:15:08   I think so. I don't know. I'm just, I'm kind of like imagining future casting.

02:15:12   Right. I think that we all blindly tolerate the fact that we have to charge our phones

02:15:17   every day because the phones, you know, are, we can't, we, none of us want to go back to

02:15:22   pre iPhone smartphone life. It's worth it even though it's an enormous hassle. Whereas

02:15:28   at some point in the decades to come, maybe the decade to come, we're not going to have

02:15:33   to charge our phone every day. And we're going to look back on the days when we'd go to the

02:15:38   airport and everybody was fighting over electrical sockets and grown men wearing suits are sitting

02:15:44   on the floor of the airport so that they can be near a power charger because their phone

02:15:48   was dead at three in the afternoon. We're going to look back and think, "My God, we

02:15:51   live like animals." Adding another device with that sort of constant need for charging

02:15:58   is an enormous hassle and it has to add to make it worthwhile that people would actually

02:16:03   go through with it. It has to add a lot of utility, I think, whereas, oh, I don't have

02:16:09   to take my phone out of my pocket to see who just texted me, I can just look at my wrist.

02:16:13   To me, it doesn't cross that barrier. Doesn't even come close.

02:16:17   And the best case scenario is not you making your flight. The best case scenario is not,

02:16:22   I mean, even having maps data on your wrist isn't compelling enough. Taking my phone out

02:16:27   my pocket is not that hard. Right. I don't think that the difference between taking my phone out

02:16:32   of my pocket versus flipping my wrist to be watch phase visible is that much of a difference. Yes,

02:16:40   it is easier to look at my wrist. So on a no and I do wear a regular wristwatch when I want to see

02:16:46   what time it is I do just look at my wrist. I don't take out my phone. But the difference isn't that

02:16:50   great. For most things. Like it totally makes sense to me. It makes a lot of sense to me how an awful

02:16:56   lot of people, especially as they skew younger, say, "I don't understand why you'd want to

02:17:01   wear a timepiece wristwatch. I just look at my phone." It's not that big a difference.

02:17:06   And that, to me, is the entire reason these things exist, other than the fitness tracking,

02:17:11   which there's a lot of awful, a lot more subtle solutions out there. Right? If somebody's

02:17:17   wearing a Fitbit, you don't know it. Somebody's wearing the Galaxy Year Live smartwatch, and

02:17:23   You know it because they've got a giant brick on their wrist.

02:17:26   Well, if only they could put it on their face.

02:17:28   Right.

02:17:29   So I think these things are dead on arrival, going nowhere, and predict that if Apple has

02:17:34   something wrist-wearable to show this fall, that it won't resemble these things at all.

02:17:40   It's similar to the argument.

02:17:42   You saw the, I think you can link to it, the Daily Show thing about the Google Glass explorers.

02:17:49   Yes.

02:17:51   ability to access that information it with Google Glass without looking away

02:17:58   from the person it's a similar argument to being able to see the time without

02:18:02   taking your phone out of your pocket or it's to see your notifications without

02:18:06   taking your phone out of your pocket it takes a certain kind of person for that

02:18:09   to be worthwhile and it feels more like a thing we can do with technology rather

02:18:13   than solving a real problem yeah I it doesn't seem yeah it just seems like

02:18:18   you've solved a very, very small problem, which is I don't want to take my phone out

02:18:22   of my pocket. And you have to have your phone with you. You can't go out without your phone

02:18:26   and still have a connection, because you're out of Bluetooth range. So you can't just

02:18:29   go for a run and leave your phone at home and do all the things you could do on your

02:18:33   phone because you've lost the connection. It doesn't solve that. Like that would be

02:18:36   a true, that would be a real problem you've solved.

02:18:39   But I think it's a social problem because the real thing you don't want to do is take

02:18:44   your phone out to look at a notification when you're talking to somebody. So you're not,

02:18:47   not solving that problem, they're just masking it.

02:18:49   Yeah. And if you get, if you look at your watch and it's an important notification,

02:18:54   you're going to have to do it anyway. Right. And if it's not an important notification,

02:18:57   why are you getting a notification for it? And it doesn't, at no point has it ever been

02:19:02   polite to constantly check your watch when talking to somebody.

02:19:05   One of the other things that just drives me nuts whenever I've tried Android is Android

02:19:08   defaults to showing a lot more notifications and all notifications put an icon up in the

02:19:13   status bar and I noticed during IO even in the demos that the cleaned up prepared demos

02:19:19   for the software that status bar was just chock full of notifications. You know there's

02:19:24   like three Gmail icons because you've got three new messages for Gmail and it's like

02:19:30   I can't believe that it doesn't drive people nuts.

02:19:32   It's like walking into somebody's house and they've they're just so disorganized they

02:19:36   got stuff all over the place like dirty dishes out.

02:19:39   I as I look around my office and I've got like literally like 47 cardboard boxes from Amazon

02:19:46   Yeah, but if you're gonna show pictures of your your home, right? You've you've cleaned it up now. Well, we keep my office door closed

02:19:52   Yeah, I don't know I can't help but think that it that this is gonna be another one of those things where Apple shows a

02:20:02   Wrist wearable that looks nothing like these things does something different and the other thing too

02:20:06   And that's just to tie it all up is go back seven years, celebrate the iPhone anniversary.

02:20:11   The other thing about the original iPhone seven years ago is when they first shipped it,

02:20:15   or first showed it on stage, it seemed too good to be true. There was this and famously,

02:20:21   like RIM had like a meeting the next day where they just, their conclusion was Apple is lying

02:20:27   about the capabilities of this device because it can't do the things that they're saying it

02:20:31   it doesn't last all day.

02:20:32   Right, there's nothing about these Google,

02:20:36   where the Android Wear watches, even the Moto 320,

02:20:42   that makes anybody say, I can't believe

02:20:45   that they were able to build that this year.

02:20:47   - Well, it doesn't help that they're sitting there

02:20:49   telling everybody how it works.

02:20:51   Like that's Google's whole thing,

02:20:52   is talking about, well, here's how we got this to work.

02:20:55   - Yeah, but there's no aspect of the technology

02:20:57   that is surprising or seems like,

02:21:00   wow, that seems like it's from the future.

02:21:05   - It's that sort of Android, Google, Linux philosophy thing.

02:21:10   Anytime you see even the more popular Linux apps

02:21:15   or the things that Google,

02:21:17   it all has that air of people sitting around,

02:21:20   like a modern day version of those electronics kits

02:21:23   you could buy at Radio Shack.

02:21:25   Like, here's the stuff,

02:21:26   and here's what we can do with the stuff,

02:21:28   and now I made you a radio.

02:21:29   Right, which is cool if it's a bunch of kids making a hobby type thing or a university

02:21:34   project.

02:21:35   And is pointless if it's a major initiative from one of the 10 biggest corporations in

02:21:43   the world that wants to make a product for a billion people.

02:21:46   Right, like if I went over to Tisch and there was a kid showing off a wearable that was

02:21:51   like Google Glass, I'd be really impressed.

02:21:53   Right, or the same thing with these watches.

02:21:56   Right.

02:21:57   be very, very impressive. But I look at Google and like, I got I got

02:22:01   shit to do. I'm not wearing that. Right. They've presenting, they're presenting

02:22:04   this as something that maybe millions of people will be buying for Christmas this

02:22:08   year. And I think that it's not going to happen at all. I think Apple is either A,

02:22:14   going to show nothing, and they're not going to get into this, or B, they're

02:22:17   going to show something that's very different, and then all of a sudden next

02:22:20   year's Google Android Wear watches will look an awful lot like the one that

02:22:24   Apple unveiled at the end of 2014 and then all the Google people are gonna be

02:22:29   like yeah but we've had we had watches the year before - no big deal just

02:22:33   because ours totally changed in the next year and happened to change in a way

02:22:37   that was exactly like the Apple one it was always gonna get there right this is

02:22:41   just the the nature of it it's funny before the iPhone came out there was you

02:22:45   know all the rumors about an Apple phone an iPhone they weren't close to the mark

02:22:50   in that nobody guessed it, but there was a lot of imagination. You look at all these

02:22:57   mock-ups, these fake phones that people put together in Photoshop and in 3D rendering

02:23:02   software, and people had a lot of interesting ideas of how Apple might do a phone. There's

02:23:09   nothing like that for a watch.

02:23:11   Steven: No. Well, the other thing, though, too—well, again, I think that a watch is

02:23:16   the wrong way to look at it, but there might be something like that for what you could

02:23:20   wear on your wrist? I don't know. I hope Apple has something to show because I think if they

02:23:26   do it's going to be really interesting and thoughtful and I think it's going to, by necessity,

02:23:31   push the boundaries of what we consider technically possible. And there's nothing about that with

02:23:38   the Google Wear stuff.

02:23:39   Yeah, it doesn't feel like magic at all.

02:23:41   No, it just feels like, well, it seems like, you know, by now you ought to be able to make

02:23:45   the equivalent of a

02:23:47   two hundred you know that an ipod nano with with bluetooth

02:23:53   as of today i'm not excited at all about apple making a wearable

02:23:57   thing that i put on my wrist

02:23:59   i'd if they do it i hope

02:24:01   that did true apple style will be

02:24:03   suddenly i'll be salivating over the fact that i well i'm my optimism is because

02:24:07   is because not because i can i have a good imagination of what it would do

02:24:11   because i don't i'm with you on that i can't imagine what they would make that

02:24:14   it would make me want to wear it.

02:24:15   But my, it's my confidence that they're only

02:24:17   gonna ship something if they have an answer

02:24:20   to that question that I just haven't thought about.

02:24:22   'Cause I honestly, the big difference from 2007

02:24:25   is the reason I was blown away is I really,

02:24:28   I would have considered it impossible before the keynote

02:24:31   to have a quote unquote stripped down version

02:24:33   of OS X running on a phone.

02:24:35   If somebody would have said to me before,

02:24:37   here's what I think they're gonna do,

02:24:38   is they're gonna show, they're gonna have an iPhone

02:24:40   and it's gonna run like a stripped down version

02:24:43   of iOS 10 for touch screens.

02:24:44   And my response would have been,

02:24:46   well, that's not possible yet.

02:24:48   Maybe in the future, but not yet.

02:24:50   They can't do that yet.

02:24:51   - I would have agreed with that.

02:24:53   - So I think that whatever Apple's gonna have for your wrist

02:24:55   is gonna be that sort of thing.

02:24:57   I didn't think that was possible yet, but here it is.

02:25:00   - I think that that's really gonna come down to battery.

02:25:02   I think that's gonna be the big shock.

02:25:03   - Well, and that's why I think that the weird thing,

02:25:05   I think that the focus on iPhone, Android-style,

02:25:11   LCD displays in the Android Wear is,

02:25:15   I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's the biggest reason

02:25:17   they only get one day of battery life.

02:25:20   Is because-- - Oh, it's gotta be.

02:25:20   - 'Cause the display takes so much of the battery,

02:25:23   like I said with Jonas before,

02:25:25   he gets terrible battery life

02:25:26   'cause he runs at full brightness.

02:25:27   The display is still, it's just an enormous, enormous drain.

02:25:31   - Didn't Steve Jobs say that at one point?

02:25:32   That the biggest drain on battery in the iPhone

02:25:34   was the display?

02:25:35   - Yeah, it's like an open secret.

02:25:37   I mean, it's just simple,

02:25:40   it's just you're lighting up millions of little light bulbs.

02:25:43   - This is why I think that

02:25:44   Whitting's activite steampunk approach is pretty smart.

02:25:47   - Yeah, I don't, I would actually,

02:25:50   I'll just go so far as to say,

02:25:51   I think I'd be very surprised if Apple's wearable

02:25:53   is an iPhone style display on your wrist.

02:25:56   And I don't know if it'll be no display,

02:25:58   I don't know if it's like a thing that just collects data,

02:26:01   but I don't, I just don't see how running a display

02:26:04   and therefore only getting one day of battery life,

02:26:07   anything desirable comes out of that.

02:26:09   - Yeah, I don't know.

02:26:10   I think we've filled up the hour. Let's wrap it up. Dave Whiskus, people can find you on Twitter

02:26:17   at—what's your username this week? And you've got your own professional with Jamie Newberry.

02:26:26   What's that app? Oh, um…

02:26:32   Vesper. That's it.

02:26:36   Yeah, I like that. I like that up

02:26:38   People can check that out. It's

02:26:41   on sale for the summer at $2.99 and

02:26:44   I think thanks to you you you said for the summer

02:26:49   I have but what you wrote was until we sober up until we sober up. Well, we'll see how that goes

02:26:55   Let's see how it goes. All right, I'll send you the audio and then you can get to work

02:26:58   (laughs)